Stand Your Ground Hearing for George Zimmerman?

This hearing — to be ruled by Judge Lester (assuming he’s still presiding over the case) — is the defense’s only hope in my opinion. I (rhetorically) wonder if the Zimmermans’ trying to game the legal system during the bond hearing(s) will come back to haunt them…

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/42-there-will-be-a-stand-your-ground-hearing-in-the-george-zimmerman-case

Thank you, Sharvey and diaryofasuccessfulloser.

Unfortunately for Zimmerman’s legal team, a potential Stand Your Ground hearing was announced on the same day I first started noticing the following YouTube video fly across twitter. Bad timing!

“You Got a Problem Homie?” Mash-Up:

Thank you, Sharvey and CherokeeNative.

Without being said, somebody is screwed and his initials are GZ.

Update from 8/09 – Why George Zimmerman Can’t Win a Stand Your Ground Hearing:

https://bcclist.com/2012/08/09/why-george-zimmerman-cant-win-a-stand-your-ground-hearing/

Update from 8/13 – Zimmerman defense appeals Judge Lester’s refusal to step down:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/13/2949940/zimmerman-defense-appeals-judges.html

Thank you, aussie and willisnewtown.

Update from 8/13 – O’Mara: “I’m not sure this is a stand your ground case…but rather a “traditional self-defense” case.”

http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-mara-legal-defense-major-announcement-details

Thank you, aussie and willisnewtown.

Update from 8/30 – Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case:
https://bcclist.com/2012/08/29/appeal-court-removes-judge-lester-in-george-zimmerman-case/

Thank you, CommonSenseForChange and willisnewtown.

The above posting is the 5th of 5 postings that includes updates regarding the Trayvon Martin – George Zimmerman shooting. The others can be found here…

1 of 5…

https://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/

2 of 5…

https://bcclist.com/2012/05/14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-court-proceedings-and-trial/

3 of 5…

https://bcclist.com/2012/06/29/recapping-george-zimmermans-2nd-bond-hearing/

4 of 5…

https://bcclist.com/2012/07/12/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-2nd-evidence-release/

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

628 thoughts on “Stand Your Ground Hearing for George Zimmerman?

  1. Yes, you are correct. GZ originally complained he has short memory due to his ADD/ADHD. During his interogation he said “I don’t know”, a LOT. However, during his interview with Sean Hannity, he seemed to have gained his memory back. The prosecution indeed have a STRONG case. During the SYG hearing, GZ has to testify before the judge. GZ will in fact be the prosecutions star witness.

  2. Thanks to @diaryofasuccessfulloser, @CherokeeNative, and @NLME (as always)!

    I hope this is broadcasted.😀 The only thing that could make watching this better would be doing so with the wonderful people here over beers! I probably shouldn’t be so gleeful about watching someone crash and burn – it’s probably terrible for my karma. Ahhh, hell, I’m sure it’ll all balance out. This is going to be so awesome to watch!

    • Although there is great anticipation, I get the feeling Stall’Mara and GZ will piss you off so bad with their fantastical tales that it probably won’t be fun at all. If all of his antics to date have bothered you, this SYG hearing will be an anger fest.

      • @princss6

        Good to see you! Oh, it’ll piss me off alright, but I must like it to some extent considering I can’t stop listening and watching.

        The fact that he WILL have to present his case and be cross-examined delights me to no end. I’m betting GZ starts to say more contradictory stuff on the stand that will hand over more ammo to the state. We’ll have GZ tall tale #169 (randomly made up number, but who can keep track).

        • Thanks, qetno! I’ve all but given up on the other threads lol. I’m so far behind!

          As someone said on twitter, we can’t wait for Bernie the Bulldog to take a bite out of him! It will be interesting to see if he changes his story dramatically. Based on what he said on Hannity, next he will be telling us that he and Trayvon sat down for beers and all hell broke loose!

      • True. There is always the possibility he will crash and burn during a jury trial and still walk. Sigh.

        Get Ready, georgie…

        • I don’t even want to think about him walking. I know the possibility is there, but it makes me sick for this kid and his loved ones to think about GZ getting off.

      • During the actual trial (yes, there’s no question – IMO – that one will take place), I will be too much of a nervous wreck to enjoy or feel any sort of happiness, but at the SYG hearing…I will enjoy it…I will because he won’t be able to get out of a cross examination, and I believe he will give more inconsistencies to the state for them to use against him at the actual trial.

        I want justice for this kid. If TM can or could hear/see all of this going on right now, I wonder what he is or would be thinking. I’m going to stop myself now before I start to get all deep in thought about what happens after death.

        • TM’s blood on the skittles. No blood reaction on the flashlight. GZ is as dumb as rocks…thus his stupid story about 2/26. I think he got a D in Intro Criminal Justice which was his major. SMH.

          • I want to know how much blood was on that pack and how it got there. We saw the stain, but is that what caused the blood evidence, or did GZ’s hands have TM’s blood on them and it transferred when he frisked TM?

            Thanks for the info!

          • That’s what I’m talking about! Let’s see what he “learned” to see how he used that knowledge!

          • Princss6,

            Could you tell me where you saw there was TM’s blood on the skittle and none on the flashlight?

            Thanks

          • @ princss6 “GZ is as dumb as rocks…thus his stupid story about 2/26. I think he got a D in Intro Criminal Justice which was his major”

            Also got a D in History of Women. No surprise. Did he take that thinking it’ll be an easy class? But princss6, I think all the dumb/stupid people and all the rocks in the world want an apology from you for putting them in the same bucket as GZ….

    • As Andrew Cohen of The Atlantic said, “You can’t ‘reasonably’ be trying to avoid serious injury or death, you can’t be doing something absolutely necessary to spare your own life, if you are at the same time chasing down the very person you claim to be deathly fearful of.” (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/12/03/trayvon-martins-killer-was-looking-for-trouble-and-found-it/254815/)

      The Miami Herald reported that the Republican lawmakers who authored Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law, former Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley, say they believe the law has been misapplied in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, and that the killer, George Zimmerman probably doesn’t deserve immunity under the statute. (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/v-fullstory/2703579/state-senator-calls-for-hearings.html)

      Former Senator Durell Peaden said, “They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid. He has no protection under my law.” Based on the 911 call from Zimmerman on the night of the shooting, Peadon’s opinion is that “The guy lost his defense right then. When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.” Peaden said it sounded to him as if Zimmerman went looking for trouble. And he found it. But he doesn’t deserve a claim of self-defense. “He’s kind of stretching a whole bunch of things. And if he has a gun, that’s premeditated,” Peaden said. There’s nothing in the Florida law that allows him to follow someone with a damn gun.”

      Rep. Dennis Baxley repeatedly made the point that “there’s nothing in this [Stand Your Ground] statute that authorizes people to pursue and confront people.” Baxley also said, “If [Zimmerman] provoked it by pursing [Trayvon], I think he’s on thin ice.”

      • I agree GZ’s on very thin ice with SYG claims. Maybe O’Mara’s demeanor is always “cautious” but on the Sean Hannity interview, even he wasn’t so adamant that his client was gonna get off on SYG. He said something to the effect of, ‘well given the evidence so far, and we haven’t seen everything yet, I think that it fits SYG.’ It’s more like he’s gonna have to try and shove it through. If he doesn’t, does anybody believe that GZ can then get off at the trial? That’s why I said he’s putting his eggs in that basket. Can’t wait to see how he presents it at the hearing. He’s not a dramatic lawyer, so I don’t expect a lot of hand waving from him. Also since there’s no jury, there’s less BS that he can present there, and if he does, we’ll have to screen capture all the glaring looks that Judge Lester is going to shoot at him over those glasses.

  3. What SYG hearing? I’ve not heard of any hearing being listed on the docket. The pathetic announcement on a propaganda/ donation site for the defense that “there will be a SYG hearing (eventually, maybe)” was nothing but a fundraising request to the gullible, backed with NOTHING.

    To start a thread with that as the heading is kinda silly, IMO. Why discuss something that may or may not ever happen. GZ would be a fool to take the witness stand given his credibility problems (and low intellect) and his lawyer would be an even bigger fool to expose him as such to cross examination. His best bet, besides a plea bargain after agreeing to plead guilty) is to wait for trial and see what the prosecution can prove before deciding if he needs to take the stand or not.

    Yes, the hope of immunity from civil suit must be a strong temptation but my understanding of an SYG hearing is that it’s an affirmative defense and O’Mara would be hard pressed to present his case without calling his client to the stand. IANAL however so perhaps there is a way he could just present his (inconsistent, contradictory, and IMO patently and provably false) statements to SPD as his case for the defense, and “self-defense/ standing his ground”. But that’s even worse a plan in my opinion. He’ll lose when the prosecution shows he’s pushed a false narrative and lied to investigators regarding the timing and circumstance of the move from the clubhouse area to the cut thru, and the judge will not find him credible and will likely say so in his ruling, which is not a great way to walk into court when the trial proper begins.

    The defense has a much better chance at trial since it’s then that the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is a murderer and killed with a depraved mind, etc. All they need there is one holdout on the jury to get a hung jury. That’s not an acquittal, mind you but it’s something.

    • I read your other comment and it was spot on. Looks like a money grab opportunity as you’ve said. Also, I owe you a response elsewhere. Sorry for not responding yet… Appreciate your dissection. I’m having ‘puter issues and behind in everything!

      • No worries. I see this as a slow time for the case. The accidental release of some evidence is more interesting to me, although Ive not had the time to go thur it all yet.
        The poor quality pic of the body does help establish the position better, however. The black, tactical, possibly non working flashlight is easy to place in relation to the body. I’ll post an illustration soon.

        • Based on the markers in you pic display, the large flashlight is definitely in the same pic as the body. I’m talking about the one Zimmerman claims to be thumping on that didn’t work (not the separate pic of the small one). Serino managed to get the big one to work at the station.

        • Ah.. Just saw. Very nice mashup. I am going to have to compare the clicking gun-like sounds to the original NEN before I can say one way or another if we’re dealing with the killer’s gun being at the ready before he went approx. 50 ft. south of the tee where he fell down.

          Yes. I agree. Good vid. Thank you!

          • I’ve posted about that gun sound a few months ago. It sounds to me IMO him pulling back the slide on that gun before he said his last name. Also I hear after that he says shit gun. Underneath the dispatcher. I know we have debated before about this, but I am sticking to it. We have been digesting new evidence and plausible scenarios that sometimes we overlook some things. Just like when I posted about the keys in the truck. At first I got a nahh. But some people check it out for themselves and heard it for themselves. All the hard work everyone does here on this blog is so much appreciated by me and many others.. The video smash up is a perfect summation of what we have been dissecting, discussing and untangling the deceptive weave GZ has woven.

          • @Loree –

            OK. I’m no gun expert and I’m definitely prone to overlooking things without a look back. But I had read early on that the kel-tec 9 doesn’t require cocking. Are you saying Zimmerman inserted a new clip or something and that’s maybe what the sound is?

            I do hear something distinct (although not the shit gun part) that could be a sound attributed to some some sort of fiddling with a gun. Is it Zimmerman releasing a safety maybe? I also read that there’s no safety for that particular gun. Since it’s unlike Zimmerman was exchanging ammo in the cut through (or is it?), what other gun noises could match that clicking sound? Is that clicking sound on the Zimmerman side of the conversation or is it something Sean’s side of the call?

            Is it possible that the sound is something else entirely?

            I think the “shit gun” is an echo, but I certainly could be wrong.

    • The State of Florida is using faxes to obscure evidence. Why couldn’t they just use a drawing?!

      In any event, if the chatter about the pic is accurate, it shows Trayvon Martin’s head was AWAY from the sidewalk. I can’t verify it because the pic is too blurred with Jon’s flashlight shining directly onto the body.

      Hmm… Jon’s flashlight makes Trayvon Martin’s dark grey hoodie look white. As mentioned previously, any color can look white in the brightness of light. Light is a powerful force!

      Unfortunately for Zimmerman, the witnesses that saw Zimmerman’s red/light grey clothing didn’t have the benefit of Jon’s bright light before the shot. Unfortunately for Zimmerman, Jon’s pics (whether Zimmerman was privy to seeing them before SPD or not) will not be something O’Mara is going to be able to rely upon because Martin’s clothing was solid dark against the night and Zimmerman’s was patterned/reflective of the little light available.

      • Looking at the photo, I don’t see the hood on his head. and the collar looks like GZ collar in his photo. Why can’t we see this in color. We got to see GZ back of head shot in color. Very frustrating.

        • As peculiar as this may sound, one of the thoughts going through my mind when I saw it was that this looks like Zimmerman’s collar. I think it was the flashlight effect on Trayvon’s hoodie bunched up around his neck, though.

        • @Loree –

          It does, doesn’t it! I think that’s probably due to an attempt to make the photo clearer by the news site that provided it, the Examiner.

      • It looks to me like TM has sunglasses on the back of his head. I distinctly see sunglasses., but not sure if on his face or the back of his head. And is his body on the front, back or side?

        • I don’t see sunglasses! But I (for a brief moment) thought I heard “he’s got a gun” on the NEN, so anythings possible I guess. 🙂

          In the end, we’ll all be made aware that we are looking at Trayvon Martin’s feet or something.

        • @Toneii, just so you don’t think you’re crazy, I “see” it, but I believe that’s an artifact of the grainy photo. I can see what you might think looks like glasses. There are two clusters of white dots at a diagonal to each other and each surrounded by a round dark region. It only looks like sunglasses if you move back from the computer and unfocus your eyes, kinda like an impressionist painting. But the orientation is kinda weird, so I vote no on the sunglasses. Regarding body position, I don’t want to comment until there’s a confirmation from a color photo,

          • On the iPad, it “regrained” the two bit when I pinch scale it, and it revealed that those are the reflections of his eyelids, I believe.

    • Did you see anything indicating ADD or ADHD in his school records? I didn’t.

      • I have skimmed through it quickly, he seems to have problems in math (among other things) But no ADD problems I can see.

    • Any information schools have on students’ learning disabilities is kept apart from their academic records. Only the Disability Services officer ever gets to see it. The faculty, for example, are NEVER told what conditions students may have. They just receive a notice saying “This student is registered with Disability Services,” and listing any ‘accomodations’ the DS office has determined the students is due: usually extra time to take tests, sometimes alternative assignments for certain things. These are so generic they don’t really help teachers who do want to try to work with students’ problem. I had one kid who was really struggling in my class, and I was convinced he had Asperger’s. Had that been out on the table, we could have figured out ways to help him and guide him. But no one would say a word, and he just kept struggling along.

      These days, it’s hard to find male students who AREN’T diagnosed with ADHD…

      • Not to sound cold or callous, but they gotta sell them drugs, too! Sure, some people are helped by ADD and ADHD drugs, but the push, imo, is mostly to make a buck. A lot of people have turned to self-medicating and vitamins. Now those industries also seem to be more interested in making $$$.

        I think in a lot of cases, the kid is just bored to tears. I was! Good, caring teachers and good, caring parents have worked for me. I’ll be the first to admit that may not be enough in the information overload era.

        Best wishes with you son (or was it your student?).

  4. I’d like to interject one more time to point out that no SYG hearing is scheduled on the court’s docket, and no motion for one has been filed. The announcement on a defense blog is hardly a legally binding document. IMO its a plea for donations backed by nothing, and should be treated as such. Sorry for posting this several times, but I feel like people are blurring the lines between propaganda and fact here.

      • It’s possibly both. O’Mara will need the money now that the $100K had to be paid out. The other one is in a suicidal downward spiral and doesn’t realize his 15 minutes of fame are up.

    • NP. It’s a good point. Even if they do file a motion and obtain a hearing date, I wouldn’t be surprised if they cancel it.

      The only reason I could see them going ahead with a hearing that would force GZ to testify and be open to cross is if GZ is completely driving the bus at this point, DEMANDING his day in court, and O’Mara has just resigned himself to let the guy do what he wants, pick up his check, and look for a book deal when it’s all over.

  5. Here is a photo interpretation of where the body was first seem by JonW13 and photographed.

    rough illustration placing the body w 567 markers

    for those who are not bothered by a grainy zerox of a dim photo of a dead body, the whole flickr set is here

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630994203862/with/7749839194/

    There are my first impressions about what the newly, accidentally released poor quality photo of the body in it’s state before the arrival of first responders might say about the case: not much. The right hand seems to he alongside the body, not tucked under, FWIW. If TM fell off of GZ to his left, and GZ exited his position underneath the teen, it seems likely the flashlight was in GZs right hand and the cell phone was in TM’s right hand as they wrestled on the ground, but those are guesses.

    Many things are possible. Without seeing the full quality photo this only confirms the direction the body was rolled over – right side over the left, apparently, away from the sidewalk and towards the unit belonging to JohnW6. I’m no CSI guy, my specialty is photography.

    But that’s my 2 cents about what is newsworthy about this new info.

    • @WillisNewton –

      To me, the hands do seem to be tucked (or nearly tucked) under the body. The officer had mentioned that he ordered Trayvon Martin’s hands out or something like that which seems to confirm the body position. I have speculated in the past that Zimmerman claimed he left the body in a different position than he knew the evidence would show. Zimmerman is head-tripping everybody. I think he knew he was caught and was attempting to cast doubt on the police.

      The body looks like it was rolled closer to the sidewalk than to John’s patio, imo. Can’t really tell. Don’t know what I’m looking at. I’m basing that on a visual of the white patio fence/separator viewable in both the pics of the markers 5, 6, and 7 and the fense in the actual xerox/fax pic of the body where the same patio fence/separator can be seen in the top right corner.

      • Testing – Comment 17 below was intended as a reply to CSFC in Comment 12. If this posts separately then I’ve done fucked up the comments. If it posts here in #12 then I’m just an idiot who posted in the wrong place somehow.

          • I must have (not realizing) posted a new comment when I thought I had posted a response. I suppose I’d rather look like a big, dumb dope who posted in the wrong spot compared to being the a**hole that jacked up the comments.🙂

            What I intended to post is down in #17 about the two sisters. I’m wondering if the one saw TM on his back right after the shot before anyone else got out there. I may be wrong, but I believe one described the body after the shot as on his back and the other on his stomach, but I was not sure as to the timeline of when they saw what.

            Personally, I think TM was on his back OR side when shot. I think after the shot GZ rolled him to his stomach because he needed it to look like TM was on top. Then when he was questioned about why he was on top after the shot, he had to come up with an excuse for that, but he couldn’t explain how TM got off or he got on top.

            Of course, what I think doesn’t matter in a court of law and is not evidence.

      • I can’t tell where his right hand is in the picture because the quality it too low. What may be his lower arm might also be the shadow of his upper arm. If his hand is under his body it seems to be that it would be touching his thigh or groin area, unless his elbow is bent 90 degrees, which is possible, I guess. Too hard to tell.

        However, given the detail shown in the “bloody head photo” by the same camera, I think the actual shot will show at least where the right hand was. We just can’t see it yet.

    • Natalie Jackson posted on twitter that it would not lead to a mistrial since there was nothing disparaging – for goodness sake Witness 9! But she said that GZ could sue the State for invasion of privacy. But if he prevails and is not successful with SYG, Trayvon’s family could sue him for wrongful death and claim whatever he might win from the State.

      Karma’s coming, GZ! It always does and it always will.

      • “Karma’s coming, GZ! It always does and it always will.”

        I’m hopeful, but I’ve got to admit recently I’ve been feeling disheartened; I just get this feeling he’ll get a hung jury.

  6. @NLME: Just read your new post on why GZ can’t win SYG hearing. Some good points there, but regarding your statement “Zimmerman believed Trayvon was reaching for the holstered gun and he thus feared for his life. If this was the case, we’d expect Trayvon Martin’s DNA to be found somewhere on the gun. Said DNA doesn’t exist so the threat of the unarmed teen firing Zimmerman’s holstered gun obviously wasn’t imminent.”

    I agree that death was not imminent for GZ, and yadda yadda he’s on shaky ground with SYG.

    But I wanted to clarify that GZ never said that TM even touched the gun (did he?). His self-defense claim rests solely on the fact that TM said “You’re gonna die tonight MF” and then GZ felt his hand sliding down, reaching for it not touched it.

    I’m not a forensic expert, but I am a biologist (cat’s outta the bag) and thought I’d put in my 2 cents about something I almost know something about. I’m going into a long-winded explanation below, but it’s to show that I don’t think any time that you have an “absence” of a positive DNA test, that you can conclude that a person never touched something.

    Regarding the DNA test used (AmpF/STR Identifiler Plus PCR Amplification Kit), it is a sensitive real-time PCR based test, but still requires by my estimate DNA from about 150 – 300 intact human cells, and roughly 4 times as much if the sample is degraded. That’s for one reaction tube, so you’ll need more for replicate testing. This is also in the absence of contaminating DNA. The test requires a specific range of DNA to add to the reaction tubes, too much or too little input DNA can screw up the test. So as an amplification test, the relative amounts of each contributor (GZ, TM, other unknown) in the original sample (template for the amplification) is really important, because the test is biased and will preferentially amplify what is most abundant. So say there could be a tiny bit of GZ’s blood on the skittles packet but it was mixed in mostly with TM’s blood. You might not be able to pick it GZ’s DNA, and all you’d see is TM’s DNA. (And whenever they say there’s a possible third contributor, it just means they got noise and it could be a real third person from the scene or contamination from any source.)

    From blood droplets the amount of DNA required for this test can easily be obtained. Note that when they say that the DNA testing was negative from the flashlight, it just means that they weren’t able to pick up enough DNA from a swab to determine who might have touched it. And of course the chemical test for blood was negative. Given that somebody had to have touched it, then why didn’t it test positive for any DNA? So no positive DNA result just means that they can’t determine who might have touched a hard dry object with a dry hand. With any dry object like the gun, I would not expect to get a conclusive DNA result from momentary contact (Given this type of testing).

    FYI, I don’t watch CSI, but somebody here questioned how you could get DNA from a single epithelial cell? it is technically possible to amplify DNA from a single cell (I’ve done it), but that’s when you are able to isolate it as a single cell and are using specific DNA primers/probes to detect it. You don’t have that kind of sensitivity the way this DNA test is set up, nor do you want it because you’d then pick up all sorts of contamination and the results would be garbage.

    Again, my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

      • @RNS1, I usually don’t make comments worth appreciating so I appreciate your appreciation on this one. Regards.

    • correction: “CLAIM” not “FACT”. Before somebody get’s their shorts bunched up, I need to correct my sentence above. It should read “His (GZ’s) self-defense argument rests solely on the CLAIM that TM said “You’re gonna die tonight MF” and then GZ felt his hand sliding down, reaching for it not touched it.”

    • Great feedback — thank you!

      Trayvon had a small cut under his left ring finger. That would have been the hand that was sliding down Zimmerman’s right side. I’ll need to look at the DNA evidence again but is TM’s DNA found anywhere on GZ’s right side?

      If Trayvon Martin didn’t actually grab a hold of the weapon but instead Zimmerman worried the unarmed teen’s hand was sliding down to it, I’d expect to see TM’s DNA on GZ’s right side. I’ll check out the DNA evidence again in a bit.

      • @NLME I thought the cut on TM’s hand was on the left ring finger “below” the knuckle which I had interpreted as being still on the back side of his hand, but I see that you’re thinking it’s on the palm side. Of course we don’t know if it was obtained that night. I don’t know enough about ME reports to know if cuts mean “fresh cuts” and scarred/healed cuts, if mentioned, would be indicated as such.
        @tchoupi, thanks for the link on GZ’s jacket. I am hoping at some point to see a clear schematic of where all those stains were found, but I’d view it with caution since there’s the possibility of GZ transferring TM’s blood after the shooting.

        Also, note that they probably only tested blood stains on the clothing that they could see, and perhaps a few spots as controls or places of likely contact such as the sleeves. I also want to amend my previous statement about needing 100-300 cells to get a positive DNA reading. This was based on my reading of the standard protocol for that commercial test kit. It is possible to tweak the test conditions of that kit to increase sensitivity if you need to identify DNA from a few (maybe 10-30) epithelial cells swabbed off of hard surfaces of a gun, cell phone etc. But they’d only focus on certain places like the handle and trigger. As mentioned before, this is much more difficult to get a clear result than with a blood stain.

        Note that GZ’s DNA was NOT found on the trigger. Some people (not on this blog) have interpreted that to mean there must be some other shooter. Of all of GZ’s lies, that’s the one thing I’m certain that he wouldn’t be lying about. If a “buddy” of his had done the shooting, he wouldn’t be taking the fall, no way.

        Again, my main point as before is just be cautious about interpreting negative DNA results, that’s all.

        • “but I’d view it with caution since there’s the possibility of GZ transferring TM’s blood after the shooting.”

          As well as before the shooting. There’s still the scrapings under Trayvon Martin’s fingernails to contend with. No traces of Zimmerman’s DNA found there. The scratches on Zimmerman’s nose weren’t made by Trayvon Martin. Can’t be.

          • @CSFC “There’s still the scrapings under Trayvon Martin’s fingernails to contend with. No traces of Zimmerman’s DNA found there. The scratches on Zimmerman’s nose weren’t made by Trayvon Martin. Can’t be.”

            I agree. They didn’t find GZ’s DNA under TM’s nails. But it seems that scrapings underneath fingernails are traditionally obtained from a victim to find evidence that he/she was clawing at an attacker. This might sound sexist, but I expect a higher likelihood of finding the attacker’s DNA under nails of female rape/murder victims. GZ was not using his fist to assault TM and resorted all to quickly to his gun. GZ supporters have said that the “absence” of GZ’s DNA under TM’s nails lend support to the claim that was the aggressor and had the upper hand. Again, I say no way, you can’t make that conclusion from that evidence.

            Also, it doesn’t seem like they tested for the presence of GZ’s blood or saliva on TM’s palms/hands (not talking about the fingernail scrapings). GZ claimed that TM was smothering him, so then blood or saliva would be all over TM’s hands (DNA could be easily discounted in this case because they were in close contact and only a few cells would come up positive). This evidence would be the defense’s to obtain. I wonder if they tried to find that evidence and found negative results, are they legally bound to give that information up to the prosecution? Or do they only have to present data that favors the defense?

            BTW, when I have more time, I’m going to go back and look at the DNA evidence again and give a more thorough breakdown and analysis.

          • @WSI –

            I haven’t yet read your full comment, but let’s approach this from Zimmerman had scratches on his nose. There must be DNA under Trayvon Martin’s fingernails if Trayvon Martin is to be blamed for those scratches. If defense pretends those aren’t scratches and that Zimmerman’s flesh was opened by some sort of force, then they need to be prepared to answer why Trayvon Martin’s knuckles weren’t bruised and how gun blow-back (adopted theory) couldn’t account for it.

            Again, looks like scratches.

        • Ok. Read the rest before I flew off the handle.

          No DNA or blood under Trayvon Martin’s fingernails would definitively prove Trayvon Martin didn’t scratch up Zimmerman’s face. It’s not just a girlie thing to do when fending off an attacker.

          You’d have to convince a jury that Zimmerman’s skin breaks on his nose weren’t scratches because that’s what those skin breaks look like to the common eye.

          Getting to DNA on Trayvon Martin’s hands would require first knowing how Zimmerman’s skin broke. If Zimmerman’s skin broke on a tree, on gun blow-back or from Shellie before he left home, all one would need to show is that Zimmerman claims to have had his skin broken *before* Trayvon Martin put his hand on Zimmerman’s nose to “smother him” or “cover his mouth” and that should produce DNA evidence on Trayvon Martin’s hands.

          If evidence of Trayvon Martin’s hands wasn’t collected, it shows the SPD had already decided Trayvon Martin was a throw-away black kid and there was no need to do the normal stuff towards fact-finding.

            • As an FYI, BDLR has mentioned a missing almost $50K in a footnote in his latest response filing.

              The pro-zimmerman people are in a tizzy trying to justify away that money we already know is on money card/gift card and in the safety deposit box(es).

          • @CSFC, you said “No DNA or blood under Trayvon Martin’s fingernails would definitively prove Trayvon Martin didn’t scratch up Zimmerman’s face.” Proves TM didn’t scratch GZ with his nails.

            “You’d have to convince a jury that Zimmerman’s skin breaks on his nose weren’t scratches because that’s what those skin breaks look like to the common eye.” They’re scratches, but I’m not sure how you can tell a fingernail scratch from a scratch from a twig or something in the grass.
            From what I can see, there’s a tiny scrape on his nose. It’s minor and doesn’t have to be DISPROVEN that it was a fingernail, because the defense is NOT arguing that TM clawed at him. What the defense is arguing is that TM punched him in the nose. That usually requires a closed fist right? Nails usually not involved. Maybe GZ did a faceplant in the grass? Who knows.

            “If evidence of Trayvon Martin’s hands wasn’t collected, it shows the SPD had already decided Trayvon Martin was a throw-away black kid and there was no need to do the normal stuff towards fact-finding.”

            I think it’s the medical examiner’s job to collect evidence, and they do the standard stuff until told otherwise by investigators. The testing of the fingernails may be a standard test for any murder victim. The autopsy and sample collection may have been done before anybody realized the “smothering” would be a relevant issue. By that time, the body would have been turned over to the family. What I’m thinking is that they probably did NOT visually see blood on TM’s hand. Otherwise, I’m sure that would have tested it. The saliva test was probably beyond what the medical examiner would have thought would be necessary at the time.

            I have to take back what I said above when I said “DNA could be easily discounted in this case (in terms of finding GZ’s DNA on TM’s hands, not under fingernails) because they were in close contact and only a few cells would come up positive” In fact, if there were only a few cells from GZ due to light contact, it may NOT come up positive on a DNA test if you tried to swab TM’s hands. The cells/DNA coming from TM in that swab would likely obscure GZ’s DNA. On the other hand, since it was claimed that TM repeatedly punched GZ, that kind of contact, if true, may result in a positive DNA test if TM’s knuckles had been swabbed. Given the likelihood that GZ’s skin did not break as a result of the “punches”, then such a test would be probably be negative.

            Regardless, we’re back at square one on this, and we’ll never see this evidence. I doubt anybody wants to exhume TM’s body for it, and if they did, then the jury will be made to be skeptical about it either way. The defense is just going to rely on the PA’s report of a “likely” broken nose as evidence.

          • @WSI –

            “What the defense is arguing is that TM punched him in the nose. That usually requires a closed fist right? ”

            But there’s no verified evidence of a punch in the nose. There’s only a scratch and bloody pic of Zimmerman — no x-rays. As a matter of fact (now that you’ve made me think of it), was there anything in the report that described the nose scratche(s)? I don’t remember seeing anything like that.

            I actually meant to come back and retract what I said about the police not collecting additional evidence from Trayvon Martin’s hands. Maybe they did and we just don’t know.

            In any event, maybe they checked the DNA under the nails only as standard procedure as you say. But, maybe the state only observed scratches on Zimmerman and (as you suggest), there wasn’t any blood ort other visible evidence on Trayvon Martin’s hands. Maybe the ME may have stuff that the police didn’t request, iow.

            • @CSFC,”But there’s no verified evidence of a punch in the nose. There’s only a scratch and bloody pic of Zimmerman — no x-rays. As a matter of fact (now that you’ve made me think of it), was there anything in the report that described the nose scratche(s)?”

              The nick on GZ’s nose I think is so minor (despite the huge a$$ bandage that nurse Shellie put on it) that it didn’t warrant mention in the medical report I think. I don’t think we need to get hung up on the scratch itself, as evidence that yes or no a punch caused it. As you said, could have happened before or after the alleged punch. Also, you can get punched in the nose without it being broken; likewise, you can get a broken nose without a punch. Given the low severity of GZ’s injuries, it can be argued either way.

            • @WSI –

              Makes sense to me. However, the media focus seems to have shifted to locating people that were killed via nose punch — even though there’s no evidence of a nose punch.

              When the bloody head photo was first released, we had media reports all over the place that a bloody head photo was “proof” that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor and the attacker. Now that the defense strategy is to proclaim Zimmerman was righteous in killing Trayvon Martin, what I’m specifically trying to focus on and question is real proof of a broken nose. I don’t see any.

              So far, Zimmerman’s possible broken nose “proof”/”legalease”/”trickery” put forth are the claims that:

              – there is a picture of a scratched bloody nose that may have bled (but the lack of Trayvon Martin’s DNA proves the scratches weren’t caused by him) and blood from a scratch doesn’t prove an attack or a need for self-defense.

              – there was a faxed/photocopied picture of Zimmerman’s bloody mustache (but no way to know if the blood seen on the pic was from the nose bleeding from inside the nose or from Zimmerman’s head/hands touching his own nose after whatever Zimmerman dinged his head on caused his blood to flow towards his face while he was leaning over Trayvon Martin from a top position).

              – a report from a medpro that describes Zimmerman’s nose as “likely broken” which by the time of her “exam” the following day offered no difinitive proof of a broken nose and the medpro encouraged follow up with someone more qualified and specialized.

              Of the three items Zimmerman has offered as evidence, one has been disproved by the DNA evidence. The second item cannot be disproved without a color photo (which a jury will surely have access to although we don’t). Number three can only be disputed by an x-ray and an expert nose pro that can determine if the nose was broken ever and/or recently.

              IMO, Zimmerman’s crooked nose was due to a prior. Maybe his new straight nose came from a plastic surgeon? IDK! Just my thoughts as I ponder where the hell all that “other people’s” money went.

            • @CSFC, I agree with everything in your last post, except…….I’m going to beat this horse one more time and take issue with the wording in terms of what can be proven or disproven by lack of DNA, because it has been my one and only point with the original post. *** ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE **** Sorry, the caps does not mean I’m yelling, just emphasizing.

              You said “there is a picture of a scratched bloody nose that may have bled (but the lack of Trayvon Martin’s DNA proves the scratches weren’t caused by him)…….Of the three items Zimmerman has offered as evidence, one has been disproved by the DNA evidence.”

              Since only DNA was tested from under TM’s fingernails, the only conclusion that can be made is that scratch was not made by TM’s fingernails, period. Nothing more nothing less. TM could have “caused” that tiny little scratch a million different ways. On the flip side, GZ himself could have caused it in a million different ways.

              Each piece of evidence in isolation, for that matter, rarely proves or disproves anything, it’s the whole picture that counts, and you’re right, the whole picture together points to an insignificant injury.

              Sorry for being a pain about this, but it’s probably my background in science that prevents me from ever saying the words “prove” or “disprove”. We’re rarely allowed to say those words unless 99.99% certain (See? I can’t even say 100%). It’s always “suggests”, “indicates”, “demonstrates”, but not “proves”. I suppose however, lawyers might well have a different take on that and are probably taught to put 5 pieces of circumstantial evidence together and call it proof in front of a jury.

              Yes, moving on…..where did all that money go?

            • @WSI –

              Totally agree that negatives can’t necessarily be proved. However, in this instance, an absence of proof (regarding scratches) is a proof positive that Trayvon Martin did not cause the scratch on Zimmerman’s nose. To prove Trayvon Martin caused it required proof *positive* and the proof positive was ruled out because was proof negative was provided.

              “Since only DNA was tested from under TM’s fingernails, the only conclusion that can be made is that scratch was not made by TM’s fingernails, period.”

              Exactly! Proof positive that no DNA evidence was discovered under Trayvon Martin’s nails. Since no knives, razors, or other instruments or tools were found on Trayvon Martin’s body or within his effects that would be capable of causing scratches, the ONLY way Trayvon Martin could have caused a scratch would be by using his bare hands — his fingernails. His fingernail scrapings were tested, no Zimmerman DNA there, and Trayvon Martin is exonorated of any blame associated with Zimmerman’s scratches on the nose. I’m saying that’s one down, two to go. For some reason, I think we’re saying the exact same thing!

              “Sorry for being a pain about this, but it’s probably my background in science that prevents me from ever saying the words “prove” or “disprove”.

              My varied background is in science, too, although I don’t do stuff that requires things that make ya go “skimmish”. Gotta draw the line somewhere between interests and pleasure! 🙂

              (O/T – Take a look at the inside workings of the Human Genome project to get a feel of how business influences science, if interested.)

              “We’re rarely allowed to say those words unless 99.99% certain (See? I can’t even say 100%). It’s always “suggests”, “indicates”, “demonstrates”, but not “proves”.”

              Certain stuff is provable until it’s disproved. I find this to be the nature of exploration and part of defending scientific “proofs”. (Science proves the Bible is fact-based, but some scientists “prove” otherwise.)

              “I suppose however, lawyers might well have a different take on that and are probably taught to put 5 pieces of circumstantial evidence together and call it proof in front of a jury.”

              Lawyers are passionate actors — or, alternatively greedy people that do good fake-outs — or, as another alternive, people that delve into the the minutia of law to argue fallacies of same based on historical incidences or based on good relations, etc. Good lawyers, bad lawyers…. Good science, bad science…

              “Yes, moving on…..where did all that money go?”

              Hey! That’s my question!

    • I appreciate you taking the time to explain all that. It’s all over my head, but I think I understand the points you made.

      “it is technically possible to amplify DNA from a single cell (I’ve done it), but that’s when you are able to isolate it as a single cell and are using specific DNA primers/probes to detect it. You don’t have that kind of sensitivity the way this DNA test is set up, nor do you want it because you’d then pick up all sorts of contamination and the results would be garbage.”

      What would be wrong with picking up contamination and running additional tests to exclude? Let’s say dog poo, for example. The other thing I don’t get is how can you contaminate AGAINST known contributors? Either you KNOW the contributor or you don’t, right?

      • ***Warning long post, but read on if interested in DNA testing*****
        The DNA tests are designed to detect 13 different DNA regions (technically not “genes” because they don’t make any proteins). At each of these regions (called loci), maybe 5-20% of the population might share the same DNA sequence (called alleles). It’s statistically unlikely for 2 people (unless twins) to have exactly the same 13 alleles. Related people have some matches but not all.
        Therefore, genetic profiles are easily determined with enough “clean DNA” (i.e. blood drawn directly from each person) to make a standard profile against which to compare the test samples (i.e. blood splatter on clothing). To get a good standard profile (all 13 DNA regions identified), at least about 1 nanogram of that clean DNA is used per test run (equal to about 150 cells). DNA from forensic samples will be more degraded, so you would not expect to get a clear answer on all 13 regions, but if you can match most of them, then you can be confident it’s a match (Don’t have specific criteria to post right now).
        How does the actual test work? It contains a mixture of short pieces of DNA (primers) that work in pairs to physically bind to two ends of the target DNA regions. An enzyme fills in the DNA between the two primers, essentially making a copy of that DNA. This happens for about 30 cycles (rounds) of the test, so more copies are made each cycle. This amplification is necessary to detect what’s there. The instrument cannot directly detect just 10 or even 1000 DNA copies. Therefore, a DNA probe from the test is used to bind to the middle of the DNA fragment and “light up” when it’s being copied. This probe is attached to a fluorescent dye that is normally “turned off” and only “lights up” when it binds to the specific DNA being copied. Once there are enough copies of the DNA lighting up, then the machine will be able to detect it. The more copies of DNA that you start with, the more you will have at the end of the test (after 30 cycles) and the stronger the “light” signal will be.
        STAY WITH ME. First, look at this paper to see what the data looks like. The DNA signals are represented as peaks on a graph. Taller peak = stonger signals/more DNA; shorter peaks = weak signal/less DNA.
        http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/faculty/jhughey/Files/minifilervalidation.pdf
        Scroll down to page 842, look at figure 5. This shows the profile of one person. Each row shows the results from one test with different amounts of DNA from 1000 picograms (same is 1 nanogram) down to 62 picograms. Since it’s DNA from the same person, you see all the peaks are in the same place, but they get smaller as you use less DNA. Note that the scales on the left side of each panel are not the same. The bottom panel with the lowest amount of DNA (62 picogram sample) is “stretched up” so that you can see the peaks.
        Now, scroll down to page 843, look at figure 6, top graphs A and B. Graph A is the “clean DNA” and graph B is a degraded sample of the same person (degradation done in the lab, not in the environment so there’s no contamination there). Some of the same peaks are there but not all of them. Therefore, it takes some eye-balling to judge whether or not that’s a match.

        I think you asked how you can contaminate against a known DNA contributor. In other words, how does contamination or mixtures of DNA affect the results? It’s all about the ratio or relative amounts of DNA from each source since there’s a set amount of TOTAL DNA that gets put into each test.
        First, scroll up to page 841, look at figure 4. Since this paper doesn’t have a mixed profile of two people, I’ll have you look at this and pretend the top profile “Control DNA 007” is TM’s profile. Then pretend the “chimpanzee” profile is from GZ (Insert human evolution joke here). See how most peaks are different but a couple of them are the same? If you were to overlay the two profiles together it starts to get messy, but with enough DNA to start with, you can still make out the different peaks and get an answer. Note that this test is VERY SPECIFIC, so with enough human DNA, you can distinguish it from dog poo (look at figure 4 again). It’s the contamination from other people that you worry about.
        Now to better understand the effect of contamination, go look at this paper.
        http://projects.nfstc.org/workshops/resources/articles/Validation%20of%20Short%20Tandem%20Repeats%20(STRs)%20for.pdf
        See page 659, figure 8. This is looking at just one gene using DNA from 2 people mixed at different ratios. When equal amounts of DNA from each person are present (1:1 ratio), then clearly 2 peaks are seen for this DNA region, one for each person. However, when you mix the DNA unevenly, the peak for one person decreases and almost disappears (1:20 ratio) to the point that you would think it’s just random noise.
        Thus, long story short, If you had DNA from just one person at a low amount, then you could possible identify it, but contamination with other DNA at the same or higher amounts would make those tiny peaks start to look like garbage.

        • @WSI –

          “Scroll down to page 842,”

          Yeah, right! I told you I had a short attention span, right?

          (Just kidding! Thanks much and it’s really only 15 pages beginning at page 838.) It is kind of interesting.

          “I think you asked how you can contaminate against a known DNA contributor. In other words, how does contamination or mixtures of DNA affect the results? It’s all about the ratio or relative amounts of DNA from each source since there’s a set amount of TOTAL DNA that gets put into each test.”

          Got it! (I think.) Sounds like mixing paint and then trying to unmix it. Except, maybe not really! 🙂

          “When equal amounts of DNA from each person are present (1:1 ratio), then clearly 2 peaks are seen for this DNA region, one for each person. However, when you mix the DNA unevenly, the peak for one person decreases and almost disappears (1:20 ratio) to the point that you would think it’s just random noise.”

          But Zimmerman’s DNA is known and so is Trayvon Martin’s. Is there simply not enough of each to create something similar to a palette of mixture results and compare that to the actual samples collected?

          Sorry if these are silly questions, btw. I did warn that this was all over my head, right.

          • @CSFC, not silly questions at all! I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my posts, and I can tell you’re actually thinking about it!

            “Sounds like mixing paint and then trying to unmix it.” I think a better analogy might be that the test tube is like a big fish pond. Say the pond holds 10,000 fish. You just bought this pond and you don’t know what’s in it. The previous owner said he used to stock it with blue and gold fish, but he doesn’t know if they’re both there now or if somebody dumped something else in there (contaminating fish). So you ask a good fisherman to help out. In actuality, there are 100 blue fish, 9,000 gold fish, and 900 of an exotic red fish from Thailand, He’ll be able at some point to pull up at least one of each fish and tell you there are definitely the blue and gold fish in there as expected (known contributors), and he found red fish but just doesn’t know where they came from (contaminating fish). Now let’s say the blue fish population drops to only 10 fish. He can’t even pull up one blue live fish now. All he pulls up are gold and red fish. However, he finds that one of the exotic red fish has eaten a small fish but he can’t tell what it is. It has some features of a blue fish but he’s not sure. This is the threshold concept. When you have at least 100 of any fish, you’ll always be able to separate it out and tell you yes or no it’s there. When a particular population falls below 100 fish, that’s when you may not find it at all or find some remnants of it in the gut of another fish, but half digested, you can’t tell for sure what kind of fish it is.

            You said “But Zimmerman’s DNA is known and so is Trayvon Martin’s. Is there simply not enough of each to create something similar to a palette of mixture results and compare that to the actual samples collected?” Good question! There’s tons of DNA available from GZ and TM. Your proposal of a “mixed palette” of TM/GZ DNA for comparison may be useful for any “half-digested fish”-like data, but only if that “palette” does not look like a mangled fish itself.

            To reiterate, the threshold of the current DNA test I described is really very low (i.e., it’s very sensitive). It can accurately tell you what’s in the sample mixture, with just a few hundred DNA copies. That’s sufficient for identifying the blood stains, even with contamination, so no need for a “mixed palette” for comparison. It’s when the DNA goes below the threshold, say from something like the gun trigger, that you might get funny results and therefore would call it negative.

            All data are subject to interpretation, some more than others. It’s a matter of reproducibility that allows us to get validation. However, if the test isn’t run using a “validated” protocol (i.e. using the threshold amount of DNA), no way can the results be admissible in court.

            Right now, I’m assuming they didn’t try SO hard to collect everything for DNA testing. Question is, what samples would we like for them to have obtained, or re-test and what purpose would it serve? (This is an open question for anyone who might have stuck with me this long.)

          • @CSFC, not silly questions at all! I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my posts, and I can tell you’re actually thinking about it!

            “Sounds like mixing paint and then trying to unmix it.” I think a better analogy might be that the test tube is like a big fish pond. Say the pond holds 10,000 fish. You just bought this pond and you don’t know what’s in it. The previous owner said he used to stock it with blue and gold fish, but he doesn’t know if they’re both there now or if somebody dumped something else in there (contaminating fish). So you ask a good fisherman to help out. In actuality, there are 100 blue fish, 9,000 gold fish, and 900 of an exotic red fish from Thailand, He’ll be able at some point to pull up at least one of each fish and tell you there are definitely the blue and gold fish in there as expected (known contributors), and he found red fish but just doesn’t know where they came from (contaminating fish). Now let’s say the blue fish population drops to only 10 fish. He can’t even pull up one blue live fish now. All he pulls up are gold and red fish. However, he finds that one of the exotic red fish has eaten a small fish but he can’t tell what it is. It has some features of a blue fish but he’s not sure. This is the threshold concept. When you have at least 100 of any fish, you’ll always be able to separate it out and tell you yes or no it’s there. When a particular population falls below 100 fish, that’s when you may not find it at all or find some remnants of it in the gut of another fish, but half digested, you can’t tell for sure what kind of fish it is.

            You said “But Zimmerman’s DNA is known and so is Trayvon Martin’s. Is there simply not enough of each to create something similar to a palette of mixture results and compare that to the actual samples collected?” Good question! There’s tons of DNA available from GZ and TM. Your proposal of a “mixed palette” of TM/GZ DNA for comparison may be useful for any “half-digested fish”-like data, but only if that “palette” does not look like a mangled fish itself.

            To reiterate, the threshold of the current DNA test I described is really very low (i.e., it’s very sensitive). It can accurately tell you what’s in the sample mixture, with just a few hundred DNA copies. That’s sufficient for identifying the blood stains, even with contamination, so no need for a “mixed palette” . It’s when the DNA goes below the threshold, say from something like the gun trigger, that you might get funny results and therefore would call it negative.

            All data are subject to interpretation, some more than others. It’s a matter of reproducibility that allows us to get validation. However, if the test isn’t run using a “validated” protocol (i.e. using the threshold amount of DNA), I’m afraid/certain the results can’t be admissible in court.

          • @WSI –

            Thanks. That is a better analogy. Hell, with that detailed analysis, I feel like I’m semi-close to understanding.

            “All data are subject to interpretation, some more than others. It’s a matter of reproducibility that allows us to get validation. However, if the test isn’t run using a “validated” protocol (i.e. using the threshold amount of DNA), no way can the results be admissible in court.”

            Validation is very important. At any time before the trial ends, the defense can re-test. Also appreciate your point that using whatever is the standard practice is best for trials.

            “Right now, I’m assuming they didn’t try SO hard to collect everything for DNA testing. Question is, what samples would we like for them to have obtained, or re-test and what purpose would it serve? (This is an open question for anyone who might have stuck with me this long.)”

            Well, they johnny-come-lately tested the blood on the Skittles. Seems like they could have done that during the original testing phase. Better late than never I suppose. It all leaves me wondering if Florida is a cash-strapped state that takes too many short-cuts.

            They have the grass and debris samples supposedly collected from Zimmerman’s and Trayvon Martin’s clothing that night. Haven’t seen any test results from those items (if they were tested). Could prove the grass, dirt, etc., was from the actual crime scene (and not some other, maybe previous ground-play) and it could especially prove some special properties of the grass, dirt and other debris that caused it to become invisible on the photos released of Zimmerman’s jacket.

            Remember the wet front of the boots? Is the invisible stuff on the back of Zimmerman’s back the same grass, mud/clay/dirt?

        • Seeing they know both people involved, why can’t they just do blood type? does that need a lot more sample material?

          • I meant to post that, too because I appreciated that insight. I thought it was a really valid question back when first discussed. KISS principle. Made me think the tests need to be revised.

          • @Aussie and @CSFC

            Thanks for bearing with me. DNA testing is more informative and sensitive than blood type. There are only a few different blood types, what if both TM and GZ had the same blood type? Also, blood typing is only good on blood samples. DNA testing can potentially find skin cells on objects as evidence someone touched it. Problem is you have to swab the right spot and pick up enough cells. This whole discussion started when I was trying to explain that the ABSENCE of a positive DNA reading cannot be interpreted as something not happening, such as the lack DNA found on the flashlight to mean that no one touched it.

            Unlike years ago, the process now is quite easy and can be done in a few hours (set-up time 1 hour; go eat lunch while machine runs for 2 hours; come back and get data). Using the validated protocol, DNA testing is KISS.

            FYI, regarding luminol, I found out that it does not interfere with this DNA test. I assume the forensics people have already sprayed the jacket/shirts with luminol to see the blood stains before cutting them out to do the DNA testing.

          • @WSI –

            Valid point, imo. In addition to the possibility that Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin had the same blood type, for those that speculate that Zimmerman had help from either Taaffe or Osterman or some unknown person, there’s the possible introduction of another person with matching blood type of either Zimmerman or Trayvon Martin. Maybe that’s why DNA has become the standard.

            • @CSFC, to satisfy the conspiracy theorists I would love to drag all those guys (Taaffe, MO, Shellie) down to the lab to draw up their DNA profiles. But alas, that would never happen.

  7. From the OS
    “The records show that contrary to what Zimmerman has said, he did not graduate from Seminole State College because he failed an astronomy class in the fall of 2011.”

    So GZ lied to Serino on the 27th when he said that he has a associate degree! I’m really disappointed, shocked, in disbelieve.

    • GZ is without a doubt a pathological liar. I maintain he is a murderer, too. Not all pathological liars are murderers and vice versa but I have to be honest, I can’t figure out how this guy evading ending up in a correctional facility long before this point! Well, I can figure it out – white people deviance is medicalized (GZ on all types of med) and rehabbed. Black ppl just go straight from school to prison.

      Amazing!

      • Valid point, imo.

        O/T – saw your stick figure vid at Prof Leatherman’s. Why didn’t you post it here, too? I thought it was interesting. There was one particular caption that really caught my attention and I think needs further exploration/discussion. “I don’t know”. I think that’s what I heard, too.

        • I’m just a peruser/lurker here lately. I’m sooo far behind and I’m not sure where to post anything. I’ve not even touched the second discovery deep dive thread yet, lol. It is probably more of a function of the level of documentation needed to post here, not opening up a can of worms…🙂 and not knowing if I will be redundant if it was posted somewhere else in the multiple threads that are busy here.

          Here it is:

          Mostly though I’m all over the place with hit and run posts but am most active on twitter.

      • The NEN call is full of truths, “He has a button on his shirt.” “And he’s black.” “I don’t know where this kid is…” etc. So lets leave that out, and ask what truths Zimmerman told AFTER he shot Trayvon Martin.

        I’ll start: (Tell my wife) “I shot someone.”

        OK, your turn.

        • but interesting thing about the detail he described is when he gave that detail. Remember he ID’s Trayvon as a black male first. Only when he got closer could have give that detail. So the question would be, how closely did you see him before you made the call? If not close enough, how could you possibly discern what he was doing and if it was suspicious! All the other hyperbole was in part to get police out there fast and in part to justify his stupid call. Once he had 911 on the phone, he had to lay it on thick or look like a fool again!

        • @whonoze
          Let’s ask, for brevity’s sake : ” what truths Zimms told AFTER he shot Trayvon Martin?”

          I’ll start (tell my wife ) ” I shot someone”

          OK, your turn.

          Love your humor!
          Now, your turn, to say : ” what humor?”

          My turn: That humor..right There!🙂

  8. Here is what I’ve been wondering… The two sisters W2 (is the other W1? I forget her #), anyway – I believe one of them described the body as on his back after the shot and the other described the body as on his stomach.

    The one who said TM appeared to be on his back, I would like to know more about this, because I believe she said it was after the shot. Did she see this BEFORE EMT arrived and turned him over? I would also like to know if she looked out after the shot BEFORE the other witnesses saw.

    • My post was to CSFC in post 12.

      FUCK – Did I break the comments?😦

    • Comments don’t seem to be broken.

      In answer to your question, I honestly don’t know. I can recheck their statements over at axiomamnesia. I hadn’t focused on those two for the most part. Probably tomorrow before I can re-listen.

      Toneii is suggesting something above that may fit with what you’re implying, but I can’t handle that tonight. The mere thought of that whole scenario is too much to think about at the moment.

      • Take it easy, CSFC. This case is getting to me, too. I’ll have to go through Screamin’ Jay’s transcripts tomorrow. Grumpy tonight, will likely just head to bed.

    • Also.. Aren’t those the witnesses Screamin’ Jay transcribed on the other thread?

    • The sister (W2) is the one that says she thought the body was face-up. I’m not sure I’d put a whole lot of stock in that part of her statement, though, because she’s the one who said she’d already taken her contacts out.

      This is from Screaming Jay’s transcript of the 3/20/12 interview with Serino:

      ————–
      Batchelor: Could you see this person… Could you describe how this person was laying?

      Bahadoor: Head facing out. So, it wasn’t facing that way, it was facing that way. I want to say it was on the back, on his back.

      Batchelor: What were they wearing?

      Bahadoor: It looked like a light colored shirt, white sneakers, and I… looked like sweat pants where one was up and one leg was down. That’s what it looked like. No hoodie or anything like that. But then again, I didn’t have my contacts on or glasses. So…

      Batchelor: Could you see this person… Could you describe how this person was laying?

      Bahadoor: Head facing out. So, it wasn’t facing that way, it was facing that way. I want to say it was on the back, on his back.

      Batchelor: How was the hands and feet positioned?

      Bahadoor: I couldn’t tell you.

      Batchelor: Did you see anybody else?

      Bahadoor: No. I saw the flashlight. From here you can only see so far. You can’t see back this way. But I did see the flashlight. I couldn’t tell you who was holding the flashlight until I saw the cop walk to the side. And I don’t know if it was him or not. But I know he did have a flashlight in his hand.
      —————

      • Thanks for taking a look! It’s interesting she thinks he’s wearing a light colored shirt.

        • With a flashlight shined on it, IIRC from her second floor window after the shot. The other sister’s view (W1’s view) was also interesting. She saw the red jacket on the ground after the shot. She also saw arms flailing or something, but on the concrete prior to the shot. Unsure if that’s standing or on the ground. Her drawing is on page 64 of dump2.

          What I find interesting also is that 1st floor witnesses say (or originally say) on the sidewalk. But 2nd floor eyewitnesses say in the grass. I think the views from above would be more accurate as far as location goes.

          • I think the HOA – 911 caller – W11 is also interesting. She appears to be blindly backing George’s story, but her statement seems to go against him a bit considering she hears WHAT ARE YOU *AND* the voices are loud/belligerent.

  9. Has anyone here seen the 3rd video at prof leatherman’s site oday- called proof g stalked, chased and murdered TM? really scarey ending!

    • OMG! This is some scary ish! Around the 5:20 mark does anyone else hear “he’s hiding”?

    • I think it’s a bit of an insult to tchoupi to post that crazy-ass video here. Guy doesn’t even have Frank Taafe’s townhome marked correctly on his map. GZ didn’t park in front of the clubhouse. He was parked on TTL between the clubhouse and the T when he made his call, because there is no evidence he moved his vehicle before seeing Trayvon Martin come TOWARD him, as Martin left the clubhouse area to head home. Sawyer thinks Trayvon asked Zimmerman “Do you have a problem?” during the call, for which there is zero physical evidence.
      As for a porch light coming on? OMG! Methinks Sawyer needs some remedial physics. Light fall-off is governed by the inverse square law. (http://tinyurl.com/krabt) John’s and Jennifer’s units are 140 yards from the pool camera. So, say you’re on your porch looking at someone who’s 7 feet from your 60 watt porch light. You can see them OK. 140 yards away, the illumination level is going to be 1/3600th of what it is on the porch. Unless they hang 2K Fresnels on porches in Sanford, I’d say the chances chances you can see John’s porch light come on in the radiation reflected off the wet pavement are nada, bupkiss, and zilch. And a FLASHLIGHT? *scream of anguish*

      • sorry, didn’t mean to insult anyone; i was troubled by his endind- not sure why/how he concluded person/people were running to the scene from neyond the clubhouse. i meant to post only the link – to facilitate access- But again, sorry if anyone is offended/insulted!

        • I wasn’t offended, agree with the findings or not. I have seen where tchoupli has straight up asked for people to challenge his/her work. Another thing to note is that this video came out in June, so I’m not sure tchoupli’s works were done at that point. I doubt it was done as an insult.

          Even if it were meant to be an insult, what’s the point of pitting tchoupli against this author? Was it productive for diwataman to become the archival of flexican? Pure non-sense in my opinion.

          It’s not about the author and it’s not about any of us, individually. Truth stands on its own.

        • post whatever you want to. Everything is up for discussion here and no one knows exactly what happened that night so to rule out any other option closes the door to many interesting theories. I don’t really understand how anyone can tell what is going on with those lights but the video you posted shows some other possibilities.

          We are all interested in this case for different reasons and everyone is equal, no need to apologise to anyone.

      • Yeah and John is going to turn on his front porch light when all the action is around the back???

        Besides, those club videos were about 18 minutes wrong, so nothing on them happened when the time stamp, if any, says so. Tchoupi’s times are correct because he timed them back from the first blue&red flashing lights.

        • Re:Aussie & turning on li. ghts: I don’t profess to know what happened on 2/26 in sanfo,rd,Fl, as I was not there, happily; however it is possible that the conndos has motion detector lamps that go on automatically with noise or motion. I use those motion detector lights for security at my home- they go on at sundown in a low cast of light, but increase significantly if noise or motion occurs within a certain radius and number of feet as set by the user. So maybe lights just went on automatically due to activity nearby. Again, I wasn’t there.

          • Good point. I’ve got those sensored lights, but didn’t know there were noise-activated lights out there. Will have to explore.

            I have wondered what the RVC community’s residents were equipped with. I’m hopeful one of them had an alarm system that videotaped the back yards. Seems unlikely since most of the residents were unaware of the crime — except the HOA lady and the HOA board and George Zimmerman and the actual victims. So much for NW communicating what’s up, huh?

        • Since the vids are off by 18 minutes, what is it that accounts for the light in the video and what are the times associated with the constant light shining down the dog path area towards the pool? Some light is evident on the video where the view of the flashlight from the T is claimed as the result. What’s your take?

          Personally, I don’t think a flashlight would be static that long, but perhaps headlights of a parked car would.

          The light is there. The light is not something refutable. If it’s in tc’s imgur, apparently some people missed it. This is not to discredit tc’s works. She/He’s outright asked for challenges to make improvements if necessary. To me, that could be an indicator that a lot of people are unclear on what is presented in the imgur.

          • in tchoupis imgur

            the Clubhouse East Pool video, the big splash of light at top left seems permanent in the video; it would be reflection of a close strong light ie pool security light.

            If you watch the video from around the 20 min mark you can see tiny little shapes moving across to the right, partly blocking the right-side light patch and then moving away. These are vehicles driving down TTL.

            Where tchoupi says GZ did a u-turn further down, you can see the left-hand light spot grow a LOT stronger, that is headlights overpowering the static light.

            I doubt a flashlight would show up at all at those distances and that lousy low resolution and 1-second gaps between images.

            Tchoupi worked out time-of-day times working backwards from the known times of the arrival of the emergency vehicles. The copy he was working off had no time stamps, some of the other Youtube posters are using a time-stamped version (which is the one that’s off by 18 mins).

          • @Aussie –

            I see the confusion. I’m specifically talking about the mark @24:25 using tchoupli’s video linked from the imgur (which is about at the 10:00 mark in the video bgesq posted at comment #18). The little teeny flash of light is what caught my attention on the video at #18. The author highlighted it with his cursor and I verified it’s on tc’s. Do you know the actual time of that light beginning to show or what it is?

            It could end up being nothing more than a porch light. But if it is a porch light, who’s light is it? Is it W13’s back patio light? Is it W11’s front porch light? Is it a static street light that’s set to come on at a certain time? What is the actual time it came on? It appears to be on long before police arrive.

            • Also meant to ask…

              Is this Zimmerman’s relocated truck with lights on and stationary from the other side of Retreat View Circle where the ridgeline-like vehicle was seen on news videos? Not all that hopeful on that front, but it is a possibility.

        • TrentSawyer apparently discovered the timing error before tchoupi did, and used similar methods to correct for the error, though i don’t know how his end results compare with tchoupi’s. So he could be quite correct about what physical events observable on the recordings happened at what clock times. It’s his interpretations of that evidence I find wildly implausible, or in the case of the porch lights, utterly impossible. So that light effect he sees could have happened right after the sound he thinks is GZ knocking on someone’s door. That doesn’t mean the two have anything to do with one another.

          The mass of SPD crime scene photos shows the exterior lights on the townhomes. They’re conventional faux lantern type with standard globe lamps, not motion detector type fitted with PAR ‘spotlights’. But even those somewhat more powerful lamps wouldn’t show recognizable illumination at 140 yards. (‘Lamps’ btw is pro lighting talk for what regular people refer to a ‘bulbs’, and the pro talk for what regular people call ‘lamps’ is ‘fixtures’.)

          FWIW, a car headlight is a lot brighter to begin with, and the inverse square law being what it is, if GZ turned around where tchoupi says he did that would almost certainly generate a lighting change that would be captured on the recording.

          I don’t think the sound is knocking on a door, either, but I can’t rule it out. What i can say is that if it is a knock, nobody opens the door, and GZ does not go inside, during the duration of the NEN call anyway. I wrote a somewhat cheeky post about this on the whonoze blog: http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/click-conspiracy/

      • @bgseq
        My bad. I’m sorry.

        You have every right to post whatever you want here.

        I have just had it up to here with the wacky conspiracy theories and people who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground reading things into audio/video/photos.

        Not mad at you, not even mad at TrentSawyer really, just mad at the stupidity of the video. Didn’t mean to shoot the messenger, or should I say smash the messenger’s head on concrete…

        • Welcome to the internets. CT people will always be with us.

          I hate to beat a dead horse but what can be proven through investigation, deductive reasoning and physical evidence in a court of law seems to be what’s worth discussion. The rest is conjecture, s

          • its ok, keep beating that dead horse, but there is a lot more than physical evidence that makes this case interesting. I like to discuss all of it.

          • Well, I know CT people will always be on the web, but I guess my umbrage is a kind of compliment because I expect better from the regulars here, and I expect better from the Leatherman blog (and Susan Smith too, these being the only ones I read these days). So much solid work has been done here, and of course tchoupi’s right; the process of posting interpretations and contesting them can lead to better understanding. It certainly has for me, and I’ve recognized many errors in my own hypotheses by reading the posts here.

            Part of my angst it that i think there are still a lot of mysteries to unpack or revelations to find in the document dumps, and our ‘truth squad’ or whatever Frances Robles called us, is getting sidetracked from stuff we can figure out, and getting lost in the minutiae of these media recordings which, I’m sorry, lay people just do not have the skills to interpret properly.

            When Screamin’ Jay’s transcript project gets up the seemingly impossible task of decoding the W8 Crump interview, I wish there was someway we could crowd-source that, since the audio is so bad trying to parse her words will drive any one person crazy. But there’s important info in there. for example, I was able to make out enough of it to realize that her reported mention of an ‘apartment awning’ where TM hid from the rain could NOT have been in the complex West of The Retreat, and she was absolutely referring to the mailbox area in the first interview with Crump, as well as the later interview with BdlR.

            I do think certain elements of her account may be less than objective fact, but these strike me as all falling into the category of characterizing either GZ’s (mainly) or TM’s (possibly) demeanor. About the more factual elements of what and when, I don’t see her as having a reason to distort things, or the sophistication to do so. The problem is her descriptions of these things are vague and inarticulate, and the interviewers do not ask her for clarifications when she says things like ‘a couple minutes later’ or ‘he said he gonna run from the back’. I’m convinced that the first phrase does not mean “two minutes”, but is a trope for ‘an amount of time passed’ that could a few seconds, a minute or two or a half hour. But I still have no idea about how she’s using “from the back” exactly. The context of the Crump interview might help us decipher this, if we could understand what she’s saying.

            The larger point being, if we knew what she said to Crump, we’d be able to compare it to what she told BdlR, fill in a lot of blanks, and get a better idea both of what she means, and what parts of her statement are probably rock solid.

            This is CRUCIAL, since she places Trayvon under the mailbox awning when he made two calls to her that dropped, and she called him back. Which the phone records show occured at 6:54 PM. Which would be PROOF that GZ is lying about seeing TM by Taaffe’s on his way to Target. (There is no way I can imagine a conspiracy theory in which someone figured this out back in March and convinced DeeDee to fudge where Trayvon was when the call dropped in order to falsely implicate Zimmerman…)

            But as long as all we have of the Crump interview is that crappy recording… (II can’t afford to fly to FL right now, can’t afford to buy a catlle prod, they probably wouldn’t let me take it on the plane, I probably couldn’t find Matt Gutman when I get down there, and besides even though torture always worked on _24_ Gutman still might not give up that good recording of the Crump/Deedee session i know he has even after 20 or 30 good jolts…)… there’s always the possibility of, ‘well, Deedee could have said this, or could have said that so we really don’t know do we?’

          • @willnewton says
            discussing what can be proven in a court of law seems to be worth discussing. The rest is conjecture,s

            Our legal system is not about proving concrete facts..would be nice if it were but it’s not. It is solely about winning and losing and is an adversarial process. Any means to winning the case. . In Fl., prosecutors have absolute immunity ( now police and Det. Don’t). It is up to the other side to expose wrong doing and if they’re too lazy, incompetent, or over worked, well, too bad for the other side.

            If you’re white, middle or upper class and innocent when arrested, you aren’t worried. Hire an attorney, have proof of your innocence , and proceed with your life. That is your reality. You will find out soon enough you have entered one of Dante’s circles of hell. Once charged, the state will use any tricks to win and the weaker their case, the more tricks they pull out of their bag.

            So, I hope our understanding of this tragic case offers a look inside what a person, any person is up against when they are arrested. And please remember the jury pool is made up of people too stupid to get out of it or retirees ( like myself). So it’s not a jury of your peers unless you fall into one of those groups.

            Now, back to the bag of tricks the state uses when a case isn’t easily winable. All witnesses changed their story, did not directly observe killing, and Dee Dee is very young, not articulate, and terrified. Time for some tricks.

            First one:, since only spouses have legal immunity from testifying against each other and Shellie knows a lot. Let’s fund GZ’s fund , see if he bites, actually listen to tapes and charge Shellie with perjury. They don’t want her but they need her to testify against her hubby. Hell, if they arrested everyone who lied, there wouldn’t be room for the really bad folks in jail

            Second: MO…remember GZ told Singletary. :” my wife is a wreck…this nice eyewitness called her and she called my friend Mark who was there and they came over.” (I posted link earlier…it’s on 1st interview on 2/27).
            So, MO was there early on but I’m guessing he’s not talking for whatever reason. So they release, oops, GZ’s transcripts which show he didn’t graduate. Yet, MO threw him a graduation party for 25 or so friends. If he feels taken advantage of by his best bud, he may be willing to share what he knows and he knows plenty. I think they may have to offer him immunity cause I still think he was behind GZ ‘s new behavior as The Avenger.

            I hope you’ll don’t see this as too CT but Shellie had stopped GZ once before from going out to catch bad guy (on one of NEN ). On the taped call, he says :I’m going outside. ” She says:” No you’re not. ” And he doesn’t. If MO was at their home visiting and had told GZ what he saw coming into HOA,couldn’t they send wifey on an errand so GZ could play
            his hero game. Of course, I do not think MO knew GZ had taken his gun..Or what his BFF was capable of.

          • Lights seen on surveillance would definitely fall in the “prove it” category in my book.

            It *is* the nature of the “interwebs” (lol!) that communication is difficult. Sometimes, the conjecture is necessary, imo, to get to the point. I look at it as at least everybody’s *trying* to say something.

          • @Jo –

            Exactly! Never know what jewels are found. I thought princess6’s video (above) had a point very interesting. There’s a caption towards the end where it was suggested that “i don’t know” was heard on the 9-1-1 call of W11.

            I have always wondered what I heard there. Couldn’t really make it out. But now that I have headphones again, I think that’s what I heard, too.

            If confirmed, it does show that some interrogation of Trayvon Martin was taking place. It would also show that Zimmerman had his faculties after his supposed nose-punch because he was capable of questioning his “suspect” before execution of him.

        • @whonose:
          Smash the messenger’s head on concrete…

          There’s that humor again!🙂

      • This isn’t an insult. I have seen those videos and I think this was at about the time I was still working on my analysis. Actually, I believe we share quite a bit.
        Indeed, I have major concerns. I’m not going to list them all.
        1) The author understood that the vids are in sync. However, he did not realize that for the camera to catch GZ parking in front of the clubhouse, the light patterns would have to be significantly different from the light patterns made by other vehicles. One difference would be timing. In his video, he takes the lighting of the door inside the clubhouse as the evidence of GZ parking there. But, that event lasts one frame and is fully correlated with the light events seen on the other videos showing the vehicle is just passing quickly from west to east. That cannot be someone parking.
        2) From memory, the author states that he sees TM at the mailboxes. That shows he understood back in June how the cameras were positioned but he did not realize that the distance of the camera to the mailbox awning, the focus range of the cameras and the lack of light don’t allow seeing anything but light sources or large object of light color. So any claim of seeing anybody by the mailbox in those 45min is suspicious.
        3) He claimed (again I work fro memory) that after GZ’struck past the clubhouse he sees GZ’s flashlight shining on the clubhouse. In fact, the light pattern again fits well with that of every vehicle on TTL going towards the north gate to one exception, it is aborted. By aborted, I mean that it stops before we can see the vehicle turning north on TTL by the pool, and the light actually turns off. So, a better interpretation is that the vehicle parked on TTL facing west and the headlight were either turned off or turned to the parking mode.

  10. Scoop on Witness 1. Some of these were taken from you guys.

    Q: If Trayvon ran south down the walkway at 7:11:42, did W1 see or hear him then?

    Q: Does she remember when she started cooking? What was she preparing? How long would it take to prepare? When was it to be served? What stage was it in when she heard the wierd noise?

    “You know what’s really strange? The amount of people that said they heard something, but didn’t hear the screams for help. How could anyone miss those screams, but hear foot steps outside? That just seems strange to me.” – Jozz
    Maybe witnesses were trying to forget the screams for “Help” out of guilt from not responding to them. Maybe they just assumed the interrogator already knew about them.

    Q: Is the sliding glass door north of the kitchen window?
    Q: Did she open the sliding glass door?

    Q: Did she see a white tee-shirt like W3 did?

    Q: Does she have a poor sense of direction? Her drawing of the buildings was in reverse!
    Q: Good grief, haven’t these investigators ever heard of Google earth? They’re asking her to draw landmarks.
    A: It’s not too late to have her mark up a printout.
    Q: Why did he ask her to draw a picture of what she saw in the rear of her yard complete with landmarks instead of just taking a photo from the angle and perspective she was looking at the incident then tell her to place an “X or and 0” to indicate the figures or person on THE actual photo? Wouldn’t that be more accurate? Why complicate things when they can be so simple?
    A: It’s not too late to take those photos.

    Q: Exactly when was she looking out? She says arms were moving and flailing. But, she does not use the word ‘fighting’. What does this corelate to in the other witness statements?

    Q: Did she see John(W6) come outside?
    Q: Did she see John(W6) go back inside?

    Q: She thinks she is only seeing a body and no other. According to other witnesses at this time George must be there. She describes George’s clothes or a combination of Trayvon’s and George’s.
    “Around the 21 minute mark it sounds like she’s describing a mixture of GZ and TM. I say this because she’s indicating that the body laid out had clothing ‘in the red family.’ I’m thinking maybe she actually saw GZ straddling TM?” – Big Digga
    “Witness 1′s description of TM’s clothing after the shot really got my attention. The body looked like legs were in a running position. She saw the body of TM wearing a jacket that was reddish in color. That further indicates GZ was on top of the body possibly frisking searching for a weapon immediately after the shooting. Witness 1 then runs upstairs to tell sis she think someone got shot. I think GZ may have rolled TM over face up searching everywhere for the weapon than turned him back face down quickly before witness 5, 16, &13 got the chance to interact with him. The guy moves quickly.” – bunny620

    Q: Why does John Batchlor press her on whether she looked out more than once? And why does she insist it was only once when it’s actually more?
    A: She must only be counting the time before the shot. After the shot she looks at least two more times.

    Q: Why does she say that her sister and the girls didn’t see anything out back?
    A: Assumption. Innocent mistake? Maybe she’s trying to squelch the chase idea. Although, she does say “they were running”.

    Q: Why didn’t any interviewer ask her how much time passed between the time she heard the gunshot and the time she saw the police arrive? I think that is important.
    Interesting. I also find it interesting that as soon as the shot was heard, police arrived moments later.

    Q: Did she go outside to the back porch at any time?
    A: I don’t think anybody from this house ever went out back. They may have gone out front on RVC where many neighbors were meeting.

    Q: Why was this witness NOT initially nterviewed THE DAY OF the shooting when memory is fresh? She didn’t get interviewed until the day of the Town Hall meeting. Don’t police canvas the area for witnesses when shootings happen and someone ends up dead?
    The cops said they canvassed the neighborhood. They said they handed out fliers, didn’t that household get one? If somebody gets shot, there’s gossip in the neighborhood, how come that talk never got back to them?
    A: How do you know that they didn’t?
    Sadly, SPD didn’t do a thorough canvas. Only in the immediate area of the shooting.
    I’m very interested in the times of these events. The sequence and timing can probably be created from merging and comparing all the witness accounts. At times their subconscious may know more and better questions could bring it out. When all witnesses are aligned they will present a composite picture that may be added to what George, Frank, and DeeDee say.
    Lighting conditions can be reconstructed through witnesses. The porch light seems to impair one’s own vision beyond the porch. Lights across the way might create silhouettes. Seems likely that more lights would be turned on as folks hear the disturbance and become alarmed.

    • All I want to know is if the flailing arms were standing or while lying on the ground.

      I do wonder why she modified her statement from two people seen in the chase to just one. But maybe she was defending her original statement with somebody suggesting it was only a dog that she saw and she was highlighting that it was a fully upright human running and not somebody on all 4s. I think the fact that she said before that there was at least 10 feet between them confirms she saw a chase.

      I do not think she’s in Zimmerman’s camp.

  11. I think a jury will find Dee dees statement to BDLR credible. If she wanted to give a false narrative she could do a lot more damage to the defense , but she hasn’t. Instead she seems to be trying hard to tell everything she recalls.

    The SAO has slow walked the discovery process and provided poor facsimiles of important documents like the total station map and the google maps printout that GZ marked with Singleton. They need to protect Theo trial strategy for as long a possible and it is important to note we in the cheap seats here are pointing out things the defense now has notice to prepare for. Personally I’m not too worried given the extent of GZs self created credibility problems, but it’s worth bearing in mind.

    GZs phone records are still not in the public domain. I think this may indicate that the SAO wants to use them at trial and is slow walking their release. It’s just a hunch but one thing GZ may have done in the missing minutes is call or text his tipoff man.

    • She definitely seemed credible to me. I think she’s very sheltered as well. She makes sure to refer to Trayvon Martin as a friend (instead of a boyfriend). I totally remember those days! Mama’s not having it! Neither were my other “friends”! LOL

    • DeeDee’s speech patterns are distinctive, to say the least. Had she been coached, she’d be saying those sections in the words she’d been taught. Plus a few times she corrects the interrogator, once in quite an impatient “why can’t you get it right” tone of voice.

      She needs to be drawn out more on the “non-relevant” parts of the conversation, to give us a better idea of how much time passed than her “couple of minutes laters” (which we know can’t be right in a 3 minute conversation).

      I don’t see GZ calling the tip-off man. What news did he have to impart to him? “I lost him”??? “This is useless, order me a pizza”??? “Come and move my car ‘cos if I find him I’m shooting him and then I’d like to be forced to have to walk home”???

      • I was doing a re-look at some of the “evidence” and noticed that Zimmerman could have looked out his own window to spot Trayvon Martin approaching from possibly the adjacent apartment complex. Zimmerman could have jumped in his truck to begin his hunt for Trayvon based on his own views from his window before leaving his home without any help or calls from friends or his fellow community racists.

        This could account for the “chance” meeting at Frank Taaffe’s cut-through if Zimmerman hopped in his car as Trayvon Martin walked towards that same popular cut-through/shortcut.

        • @CSFC, good catch! GZ does have a direct line of sight from his house to where there’s an opening between the adjacent complex if someone were to cut through there and by Taaffe’s place. Do you think that’s the basis for his saying that he was suspicious of TM for “going between houses”, except that he couldn’t admit seeing TM from his house so he had to start the story from Taaffe’s house? Maybe that’s why it’s such a hotspot for him. Wonder if he had a stakeout nightcap spot on his back balcony. You know, where he could kick back after a long hard day at work, have a drink and do surveillance on “suspects” cutting through the neighborhood.

          • Posted some pic links to Axiom, but they may not show up for a while since the post had multiple links to pics of Zimmerman taken by SPD on the night of the shooting. Since there were so many links in one post, it probably seemed spammy.

            The pics were of Zimmerman’s “so fresh and so clean clean” photos and I did so in hopes of continuing our previous discussion about dna and blood evidence.

  12. Not to rain on anyone’s parade but I think one word sums up all the residents eyewitness testimony: unreliable. I can’t help but think the prosecution needs to make it’s case elsewhere. Their best witness is GZ since he is proven to be a liar.

    • Yeah. Witness 2, for example, is not consistent with herself. I can’t figure her out. Is her command of language confusing upstairs with downstairs and windows with doors? Did her sister (w1) coach her? Between interviews she seems to change things as bad as GZ did. Her changes are incompatible and irreversible. So, does one use the first, middle, or the last interview? They were all under oath, weren’t they? Now, I wonder what she would say on the witness stand. Just have to wait and see. How do I know what to disregard? Can you help me?

      • I don’t think she changes her story except in regard to seeing two people chasing. I think she was speaking to some previous challenge that questioned whether she saw a dog or not.

        The window thing seems to be a mispeak of window/sliding glass door. My impression was that she talks about upstairs, but I can see a partial flight up as sis is coming down the steps.

        I can’t tell yet either on whether she’s impressionable or unsure, but I’m not yet ready to throw into the pro-defense camp.

    • @willisnewton
      “All the residents eyewitness testimony is unreliable. I can’t help but think the prosecution needs to make it’s case elsewhere”

      Please see my comment above.
      Thanks everyone !

      • If Osterman helps move the Honda ridgelne, the SAO has at least a claim of a charge with tampering with evidence in an investigation to threaten osterman with. I’ve wondered if he is a mole for the prosecutors, wearing a wire, etc.

        And yes, prosecutors care about getting a conviction, not establishing the absolute truth in a case such as this. I tend to think the FBIs conclusion about the quality if the screams for help (not good enough for voice print analysis) leaves open the door for the mother of TM to give an emotional statement on the stand to a jury that it’s her own doomed child calling for help when it may not be so. That’s an advantage for the states case, but it is counterbalanced by GZ having fatally shot the other best eyewitness- dead men tell no tales. It’s a gray area where the truth is never going to be fully known IMO.

        That’s why I’m fascinated with the NEN call recording and GZs contradictory statements to sanford PD- these things give us a timeline to test the versacity of his character with, and he comes up wanting. So we KNOW he was lying when he says he was at RVC when he told dispatch “he ran” since it’s not physically possible for him to be there that fast without running very fast, which he denies. He’s a person who will lie about where he was a what time. Theres no gray area there. He claims he started the NEN call while parked at the clubhouse parking lot. This can’t be mAde to match with the call, either. So he’s lying about his earlier movements too. To me this is where to start a prosecution – with establishing that the living witness to a killing is a liar. The rest is easy- a loose narrative is put forth and a jury decides what’s more likely- the word of a self serving liar or some other scenario. They can and will keep it vague- GZ profiled, pursued and engaged and shot the teen. GZs injuries are not consistent w his story. Proving who threw the first punch isn’t the point, nor is it necessary to determine who was on top, etc. And I doubt we will figure it out by combing thru residents statements.

        I’m fascinated by w2s foot chase but absent a corroborating witness she won’t be a good witness for the prosecution. w10 and w31 are whom? Is 31 osterman the mole?

        • “Proving who threw the first punch isn’t the point, nor is it necessary to determine who was on top, etc.”

          Along those lines, could the prosecution pin their case down at the point in which GZ got out of the truck with a gun, concealed or not, in what was a potentially dangerous situation? His supporters have broken down each step he took and said he had a legal right to be where he was, right to carry a gun, right to ask someone what they’re doing there. However, a person has a right to drink and a right to drive, but not to drink and drive. So then, isn’t there any specific law (not just a NW rule) that says you can’t carry a concealed weapon into a dangerous situation? For instance, Osterman taught GZ (according his interview with LE in the 2nd evidence dump) about maintaining a weapon in a holster and other techniques for “weapon retention”. MO stated “It’s not your gun, it’s the gun”. His buddy right there is saying he stressed to GZ the potential of anyone being able to take his gun. If that’s the case, he never should have gotten outta that truck. Interestingly, these same words were used by GZ in the Sean Hannity interview to describe the gun at the point when he claimed TM tried to reach for it “At that point, it wasn’t my gun, it was THE gun”. No duh.

          • @was so interesting says
            “In hannity interview he says when TM reached for his gun I knew it wasn’t my gun, it was THE gun”

            Good catch..he actually misquotes what MO said he taught him about a gun..GZ says “I knew at that point it wasn’t my gun OR HIS gun , it was the gun”. What MO says he taught him was it’s not your gun, it’s THE gun.

            I think TM or, for that matter, anyone with a gun pointing at them, knows it’s not THEIR gun or they would politely ask them if they would mind returning it.🙂

            Check out this video on YouTube:

            • @ 2dogsonly, thanks for putting up the link to the whole Hannity interview. I had been re-watching it by looking at shorter clips on Fox News. I really don’t like going to that site…..

          • Defense has apparently abandoned the who hit first thing and opted for who was hitting last.

          • CSFC said “Defense has apparently abandoned the who hit first thing and opted for who was hitting last.”

            Hmmm…I think GZ was the last to hit TM with a bullet.

          • @WSI –

            Well, I make a distinction between hit and shot. Hopefully, O’Mara will realize his client is not protected for using a gun to respond to a punch in the nose.

          • GZ talking about the public “I don’t like they brushed to judgement”

            Like you GZ, brushed to judgement with Trayvon, that kind of brush to judgement? No it can’t be, nobody shot you yet.The public is giving you a trial, that’s more then you gave Trayvon. What a freaking tool, your full of crap.

    • Jayne’s testimony is very good. She’s an emotional wreck, which makes her sound confused, but if you actually look at what she says, it’s just the opposite. She’s very careful to say what she can perceive clearly “they were on the grass” and what she can’t, “it might be a police officer, i can’t tell.” She was the only 911 caller with the courage to stay by her window, who didn’t run and hide, thus the only one watching the scene when the shot went off. She’s a minor local celebrity due to a lifetime of athletic accomplishments, and a jury is likely to be positively disposed toward her as a result.

      • @whonoze
        I agree with your post. She had the courage to stay and say she was by the window. Unlike everyone else who said they ran and hide. I don’t believe half those people who said they didn’t look out their windows and kept looking, IMO.

        • @Loree
          She WAS the only one that showed any compassion

          just hope you’re never on a plane w/ them when a terrorist tries something. There’s no rushing the bad guy for these pitiful cowards.

          • I’m gonna have to defend the witnesses here (except maybe cell phone toting Jon, he’s just plain weird for taking those photos). They were doing exactly what they were told. Call 911, keep yourself in a safe place. If GZ had done that (ie. stayed in truck), we all wouldn’t be having this discussion. Of course you could say, if someone had stepped in, we also wouldn’t be having this conversation. None of them knew someone was about to get shot. They were described as “wrestling” “fists flying”. And what if they had seen a gun? How many of you would step out of your house if you saw a gun? I find it remarkable that we do have so many 911 calls, and even before a gun went off. Yeah, their testimonies are shaky and it’s maddening to try to sift through it but these people should no be on trial themselves (unless they knowingly lied or interfered with the scene/investigation). They’re affected by the limitations of their own human nature and can be influenced, but I think it’s rather unfair to call them cowards. They have enough guilt as it is (think of how it has affected Austin, the 13-year-old).

            • Maybe I was not as clear as I should of been. I agree with your point that they did what they should of done, call 911 and be in a safe place. Go to the second floor of their house. It is natural to be curious and watch what happens. I just find it hard to believe that while on the phone they weren’t keeping tabs of what was going on outside their homes. I could be on the phone and say the exactly say the same thing they said but be watching all along and leave that part out that I was watching the whole thing. It just boggles my mind that only one person had the courage to stay by her window and report everything she saw and heard. I guess I have to understand there are people who just don’t want to be involved more then they have too.
              Agreed about JohnW6… very weird taking photos of a dead person.

            • @ Loree, I was actually responding to 2dogsonly’s characterization of them as “pitiful cowards”. Sounded kinda harsh. But I do see the point about that witness who was careful to tell exactly what she saw, and so it can be believed that she stayed to watch. However, wasn’t she also the farthest away and would therefore have more comfort in sitting by the window than the others who could hear the loud yelling? But there are all kinds of reactions to such events, from rubber neckers to the jaded. Also, anybody who has lived in high crime areas or tornado alleys! (I’ve lived in both), you just don’t stay planted by a window. Doing so is asking for a stray bullet or tree branch in your eye!

            • Oh ok I see it now it was to 2dogs. IIRC she is the furthest. I live in Texas and we get terrible tornandos, I usually wind up in bathroom sitting in the tub. But anyway thanks for your post.
              : ^ )

        • Her 9-1-1 call was so moving. She’s telling the truth, imo. I think that’s why she was attacked early on as a liar when she’s clearly a good witness for the prosecution.

          She’s also very clear that the scuffle was in the grass, it was a young boy screaming for help and Zimmerman walked towards the T before the flashlight guy came onto the scene.

          Is she the caller that put the phone to the window as well?

  13. i wouldn’t make too much of MO throwing GZ a party even though GZ didn’t actually graduate. This happens all the time, even in ‘highly selective’ private colleges, such as where I used to teach. A student thinks they’re on track for graduation, and then when the registrar does the verification they find out they’re a credit short, or they missed a requirement, or a class they had counted doesn’t work because their grade was too low, yada yada. The students usually file petitions to let them walk at the graduation ceremony anyway, so they’re not left out, and they get all the parties and hoopla like everybody else. But, if they don’t go back and make up the deficit during the summer or the next term, they never get the official sheepskin, and if they go around claiming they have, they can get in big trouble.
    But MO may even have known GZ didn’t officially graduate, and thrown the party anyway, on the principle that he’d complete the body of his coursework, and making up his deficit was a mere formality.

    • @whonose
      “I wouldn’t make much out of MO throwing GZ a party when he didn’t actually graduate.Happens all the time even at prestigious schools. They can walk w/ classmates & have all the parties & presents.”

      Well, I am astonished at this. I received my graduate degree over 30 yrs. ago from UT and if you hadn’t finished courses and passed the 8 hr. comprehensive exam, you didn’t graduate. They would let you repeat the comprehensives one time and if you didn’t pass it 2nd time, that was that. There was actually a fellow student that completed coarses and internship (79 hrs.). but flunked comps. and was refused her degree.It seemed harsh to me.

      If MO threw a party but didn’t know his friend hadn’t actually graduated, he may feel like he was used. I was guessing why they , accidently on purpose, released privileged info like his transcripts. No way did A. Corey not know she was releasing priv. Info …I mean pages and pages of his school records. That did not just slip by her. Maybe the death photo but not pages and pages of priv. records.

      Iffy witnesses, time to throw something at the wall, see what sticks.

      • Now it’s my turn to risk sounding arrogant. I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings here if they have partied hard to celebrate any deserved accomplishment. In general though, I think the farther long you go in your education, the less “to do” there is about “graduation”. For graduate school, you’re older and too pooped out to care about a big party. For younger people or those who struggled, it’s a big deal. Now I have to say, an associates degree is only a big deal if you did well and your next step is to get a job based on that degree. GZ was on academic probation half the time, repeated a few classes, and his intention was to complete a bachelor’s as a pre-law student (on that trajectory, I’m not sure what kind of law school would accept him). So agreeing to having the party (I assumed it wasn’t a surprise) was either him being just full of it, or he didn’t want his friends to know how poorly he did. I also would not think MO would feel used over that. He let GZ hang out for 6 weeks at his house with his family. Let’s wait and see how he feels after the conviction.

        • My point was Corey had to know she was releasing privileged information as it was pages. So guessing her point in doing so was perhaps,hoping it would make MO question his opinion about his friend..it may not, of course, but she had a purpose for doing releasing private information.

          The death photo was probably just in the same file marked ” Prividged Information..Not for Media”. So, that was accidental. IMHO, though

    • OK. I am now thoroughly convinced you are playing “devil’s advocate”. If not, U.S. schools have certainly changed!

    • @whonoze, thanks for making this video! Awhile back I was obsessing over this and was hoping somebody with better expertise than my ear to make this kind of analysis.

    • Glad you posted that here. I saw your post on Leatherman’s. Thought it was a good example of how sounds can be broken down.

      My question remains… What *is* the sound. I’ll reiterate that the sound seemingly of a gun fiddling is what convinced me that Zimmerman had his gun out. I don’t think I bought into it before.

      The sounds don’t need to be exact, imo, because the gun noises are heard in different circumstances. It’s not cocking, agreed.

      What is it? There’s some explanation for that particular noise. Ruling out cocking is not enough.

      Is it a noise heard on dispatch side, perhaps?

  14. Why has the SAO held back the FDLE briefing interview with singleton? What else are they holding back besides w10 and w31 ? ABC/ crump interview w Dee Dee was never theirs to begin with.

    The full interview with Serino and osterman will be worth hearing I suspect.

    • Who is W31? Agreed, Singleton’s interview doesn’t seem to be provided to us.

  15. O’Mara held a press conference to announce he will appeal judge lester’s decision not to recuse himself. Orlando Sentinel and local television covered it.

    Seems line a stalling tactic to me. Also of course an excuse to mention fundraising. These sort of decisions are seldom if ever overturned on appeal.

      • Either O’Mara knows SYG and self-defensue real, real good, or he’s just he’s just using ordinary ambulance-chaser tactics in a polished up way for the presser.

        If the proponderance of evidence is the standard for SYG, why not go for it? Maybe because he has no preponderance of evidence?

        Buying time based on trying to find case-law to backup his nose-punch is justification for using deadly force seems more likely since he can drag out court dates and do additional pressers hoping to attract funds.

        Why has Zimmerman’s attorney dropped the “head banging on concrete” line and the “he’s reaching for my gun” line and “my life was in danger” line to now focus on “nose punch” as justification? Bluffing? Fund raising? Nose-bleeding proof on pics?

        Who’s running this defense? I’m leaning towards O’Mara thinks a “draw blood” event is justification for killing just as Shellie and George and George’s family hinted at in the bond hearings.

        Weird!

        • Very weird… unless he has doc report to prove this broken nose(he doesn’t) he’s simply stating now that he has no chances of winning this case.. so please give my client your money so he can afford extra food in jail.. boo freakin hoo

          • Hello wisenupoet –

            Zimmerman’s out jail, but he’s still spending money frivolously just as he did before he was released from jail. I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying, though.

  16. Correction: MOM still going for SYG (it is a form of self defense- that’s what must be confusing some folks); filed 27 page appeal in daytona appeals court to have judge lester’s refusal to step aside reviewed. MOM is concerned because at sYG hearing, judge makes all the rulings and MOM thinks Lester is biased against GZ. Appeals court appears to be about 6 days behind in posting/updating cases, sp can’t get it that way yet- maybe MOM will post it at his GZlawcase site.

    • Seems Aussie got it right, but the reporting today has been very confusing. I think these articles more clearly state “Zimmerman lawyer pursuing traditional self-defense”

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20120813/us-neighborhood-watch/
      http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/zimmerman-lawyer-pursuing-traditional-defense-16997545#.UCl-BZ1mQr0

      “Mark O’Mara, who is defending George Zimmerman against a second-degree murder charge in the fatal February shooting, said the traditional self-defense approach is appropriate because the facts suggest his client couldn’t retreat from a beating Martin was giving him.”

      The actual physical fight didn’t last but a minute right? So now you can go creeping behind somebody else with a gun, expect the other person not to put up a good fight, and if they do, a minute later, you can say, well I tried. Had to shoot. Wow. So any would-be mugger can throw out the same argument? I was only walking in the same direction, don’t know why they started beating on me, had to shoot!

      • Ok let me see if I got this straight. He posted on his website on Aug 7th
        This motion is consistent with a rough timeline for defending Mr. Zimmerman that we described in a release dated June 1, a timeline that includes: drafting discovery requests and working through potential resistance; deposing more than 50 potential witnesses and experts; and filing appropriate motions (including a potential “stand your ground” motion).

        Then on Aug 9 he posted
        THERE WILL BE A “STAND YOUR GROUND HEARING” IN THE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN CASE.

        Aug 13, We are going with just a traditional self-defense case. Along with filing a petition for writ of prohibiton against Lester.

        I feel like I am on a rollercoaster. GEEZ

        • The text below is from a miami herald article. All I can say is, “Strong case, doesn’t need SYG? HUH????”
          ******
          http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/13/2950262/zimmerman-lawyer-pursuing-traditional.html

          “The facts don’t seem to support a ‘stand your ground’ defense,” O’Mara said…….

          “I don’t’ like ‘stand your ground’ because I’m not sure it’s a ‘stand your ground’ case,” O’Mara said.

          University of Miami law professor Tamara Lave said this change by O’Mara may be a signal that he thinks his case for self-defense is solid even without the special provisions afforded by “stand your ground.”

          “‘Stand your ground’ makes it easier to prevail under self-defense theory than the law that existed beforehand,” Lave said. “I think what he’s saying is his case is so strong that he doesn’t need ‘stand your ground.'”

          • NOOOOOOoooooo

            SYG might take less effort to prove. Except for one teeny weeensy fly in the ointment — it can’t be used by the aggressor.

            By going to traditional self-defence they’re allowing for the evidence to show, or the court to find, that GZ was in fact the aggressor.

            I doubt MOM has quite explained that to GZ yet.

            But they’re going to do it as an immunity hearing though, which means try to get out of having a trial altogether. An easy victory and faster/cheaper than a full trial, if they can pull it off. But virtually impossible to do without GZ taking the stand. How can they ensure he doesn’t put both feet in his mouth when he does?

            • @Aussie, but an aggressor can use traditional self-defense???? Or is it more that it’s gonna be harder for them to argue against TM standing his ground? So by going to traditional self-defense, O’Mara is narrowing it down to the moment of the shooting and seeing if the judge/jury believe GZ’s claims there and forget about the pursuit/following/going in the same direction that occurred before?

          • @was so interesting
            Yes, thanks for the post. Wonder why MOM sees self defense easier to win than stand your ground.?

          • WSI, apparently in the interests of fairness…. would not be fair if you just smacked someone and they pulled a knife and started sticking you, for you to not be allowed to defend against that.

            So an aggressor can claim self defence if things are really badly going against him. BUT he must also STOP and indicate that he is stopping his OWN aggression, and is supposed to try retreating.

            Seems to me going for this is admitting the possibility that he was the aggressor. They will try relying on GZ being “pinned unable to move” to account for the lack of “retreating”.

        • I feel like O’Mara is not sure from day to day what his defense is. That could be due to George Zimmerman’s ADHD and I’m pretty sure Zimmerman is calling all the shots.

          I am more sure that O’Mara is well-learned in how to set up and respond to media interview requests. Oh, the anticipation before 1:30, 1:45, 1:46, 1:47…

          Wasn’t there a ketchup commercial with a jingle? Anticipation… It’s making me wait…

          • http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-press-conference-20120813_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-o-mara

            O’Mara says George is nearly broke, wants public to pay his legal costs, he’s been paid zero so far. Long ago, he said he’d go pro bono if need be, back when many people thought he was just being bashed unfairly by the media. Wondering if he’s regretting that now.

            He says GZ had his head bashed on the “ground”. Could just be his loose phrasing, but wonder if he’s backing off on the claim of it being concrete.

          • @WSI –

            If George Zimmerman can’t afford his 6a-6p freedom, maybe he should be back in jail. As a non-murdering citizen, I can’t afford round-the-clock security and so I don’t have it. Why is George Zimmerman so special?

            It would be disturbing to me that he becomes indigent and thus eligible for taxpayer funding of his security after he frivolously spent $100K to get out of the secure place he was already residing in (jail). I think O’Mara should eat the costs if he’s the one that will reap the benefit of all his publicity stunts on behalf of his client. Otherwise, send Zimmerman back to jail where his incessant need to communicate in code is captured/recorded and all of those communications are owned by us taxpayers. At least taxpayers should get something out out of this deal, yes?

            Too bad if O’Mara has to drive over in person to get answers from his client. No risk, no reward. O’Mara needs to take on the risks since he’s the one expecting a reward. Otherwise, O’Mara needs to develop a tolerance for inconvenience like the rest of us have done.

            Attorney bailouts are no different than banker bailouts. Don’t use taxpayer money to protect lawbreakers and don’t use taxpayer money to provide “special” protections or treatment to lawbreakers. To me, it’s just that simple.

        • I agree that MOM is moving the goalpost to the last seconds of the struggle, and knows he is going to lose the jury on everything that GZ claims up until the NEN call recording ends. Everything he’s claimed up to that point can and will be refuted by playing GZ’s own words in opposition to one another and a map and a stopwatch.

          But after the call ends, we enter a gray area where witnesses are less certain, and evidence more subjective. Just as GZ tried to skip ahead to the the action after the call, MOM will want to emphasize that aspect of the fight. The prosecution has already signaled they think the wrongdoing began when GZ first laid eyes on TM and criminally profiled him. MOM may know his client is going to be proven a liar all the way up until he hands up on Sean the NEN dispatcher, yet still try to argue that GZ fired his gun in self defense while being bested in a physical struggle that GZ instigated. Florida laws are such that technically he might get an acquittal this way, but I doubt a jury would go for it.

          In other words, he’s grasping at straws. Still, the prosecution has to prove that GZ was not in fear for his life, in theory when he fired the gun (and all the events leading up to this area somehow unimportant, according to GZ’s blogger advocates). This is the final stop-gap defense that those at TalkLeft have been raving about for months now. I’m not sure I buy it, but it does seem true that the prosecution may have trouble proving beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ felt otherwise.

          I do think however it’s a signal that MOM knows now that he can’t rely on GZ’s narrative up until the NEN call ends, nor can he put GZ on the stand except as a last resort, and then only in regards to the final seconds of the altercation.

          • The hurdle I see is that the defense will have to show that George Zimmerman is anything close to a reasonable, reasoning person. His thoughts, statements and actions seem irrational.

          • On the “Stand Your Ground” hearing, O’Mara said:

            “Stand Your Ground” is misleading: What this really is just a simple self-defense immunity…I think the facts suggest in this case that what probably happened was that my client was reacting to having his nose broken.”

            MOM says he’s moving to GZ had a broken nose defense!
            How will he fit that w/ GZ’s own doctor’s chart notes “suggests patient follows up w/ a Ear, Nose, & Throat specialist. Patient declined.” And GZ says to Singletary he is only seeing his PA to get return to work release

            Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-mark-mara-legal-defense-major-announcement-details#ixzz23kgd1q6B

          • @2dogsonly –

            I hope there’s a legal way for the prosecution to discover Zimmerman’s nose was already broken prior to the fight. His nose already looked crooked to me long before the bloody photos appeared in the media. I think it was his linked in photo that showed he had a crooked nose.

            The scratches on his nose and face cannot be from Trayvon Martin causing them. No DNA there.

  17. Check this out, low light conditions training technique. No doubt GZ used some of these popular tips.

    • Seems that someone strongly familiar with law enforcement tactics would probably be eager to use it in that situation.

    • Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting.

      Interesting video. I kept shaking my head while watching this guy go through techniques and situations where you’d need to use a flashlight and a gun. I must live a life relatively free of paranoia and anxiety — are people genuinely interested/concerned about stuff like this?!?

    • Interesting moves. The hold-aways are problably what’s adopted in our gun rights before people’s safety era.

  18. IIRC,
    We were debating a possible phone call to GZ when MO was at the gate. Well according to this form, you have to call a landline not a cell or homeowner’s pin to gain entry. Does anyone know if the state requested the gate entry logs? The cameras were not working at the gate on 2/26/12. Is the gate open through out the day? If not, there should be a time record of everyone entering and leaving on 2/26/12

    • On another forum, someone who had actually visited The Retreat to look at rental unit before the place became (in)famous said the gates close at 7PM. I just put a post about the gate on the whonose blog, wondering how people get in, and whether there are logs, etc.

      • Residents would get in with a keycard or similar. I imagine visitors would be let in with a buzzer system, same as ordinary intercom-controlled building doors.

        The problem for MO would not be the 7 pm closing. The problem would have been the POLICE were not letting anyone drive in. The mother of Austin had to park outside and walk in, when her kids called her (she was shopping).

        SZ was called ~7.20, say she called M~O 7.21, he was there to talk to GZ and the police (although not in detail). Really I cannot remember the exact fractions but we worked it out some weeks ago, what time GZ was driven away from the scene. We have so many pages going now I can’t recall which one it was on.

        So MO had to be there before that, and it was worked out that to come from Lake Mary in the time allowed, he’d have had to be really pushing it. He had to be there a bit before GZ was taken, too, to have a chance to talk with him. The cops he may have talked with afterwards.

        • The problem for Zimmerman would be fully acknowledging that he was aware that the front gate cam was broken and so Zimmerman is fully aware that the possibility of Trayvon Martin’s entrance via the front gate is unprovable.

      • I just checked out your blog for the first time. Its good. I guess we are thinking alike in regards to the gate.

    • @Loree –

      If you’ve got the entry code once, I think you’ve got it forever more. Also, if before 7pm (as speculated), just get there by 6:59. What is interesting to me is that Zimmerman said he knew the cam on the front gate was broken. He felt free to invent anything about entry from that point.

      Zimmerman didn’t count on DeeDee’s cell call evidence, nor the surveillance at the clubhouse nor the 9-1-1 recorded calls.

      • I’ve always wondered if GZ called the Non-emergency number because he was under the mistaken impression that these calls were not recorded, even though there is an audible, recorded warning played at the start of each call. In his interviews with Sanford PD he behaves as though there isn’t a recording of the call, but possibly only notes or the recollection of the dispatcher to put against his false narrative.

        Most notably, he never mentions the “sh*t, he’s running” part of the activity he describes. I doubt it was because he did not recall that – IMO it ca be proved he chased TM down TTL for a short distance, causing the teen to run from his moving car. He never speaks of this running away unless and until prompted to talk about it, then of course he can’t remember anything about the way the youth ran. (Incredibly, he told Hannity that Trayvon was “skipping,” which is odd to say the least but an admission that he did see and could be able to recall, if he chooses, the actual way the youth was running. He chooses to lie, IMO.)

        Of all the things he claims happened during the NEN call, he gets very little right. Certainly he never parked in the clubhouse parking lot, nor did he begin his conversation there nor was he instructed to move from there. IMO he’s also invented TM’s movement from 1400 RVC past the clubhouse as well, as we’ve all discussed here. In his first telling to SIngleton, GZ wants to skip ahead to the point where he is parked “by the cut thru” in order to get to the ominous (fictitious) circling of his vehicle, yet another activity not described on the NEN call recording. But GZ does credibly recall the detail of “hand in his waistband” detail, but that’s just about the only thing he gets right when you compare his varied contradictory statements to the NEN call recording.

        I’m fairly certain he parked and began the call at the spot he marked on a map for Singleton, at the first bend in TTL once she discovered he was omitting something from his initial tale. She began the second interview with the express purpose of letting him explain why he left out the idea that he had been PASSED by the teen he claims he left behind near the 1400 block of RVC, only to later be approached from the cut thru path. GZ had, in his first telling invented the idea that he was instructed by the dispatcher to move to where he could see the teenager, and this is his first excuse for why he left his vehicle (since he is determined to leave out the running, or the running after by him.) But now, having been caught in omitting the move from clubhouse vicinity to the cut thru, he’s forced to move this action of instruction to the clubhouse parking lot. And in so doing, he’s ruined his false narrative of TM doubling back to circle his car. It almost works if he was parked by the cut thru to begin with, but with the addition of the clubhouse parking lot as the position where the call begins, it can never be reconciled with the recording. He’s lied to investigators to cover the true means of which he moved from clubhouse vicinity to cut thru… and why? Was he led into his difficulties knowing the call was recorded, or was he unaware? I’m not sure.

        • “In his interviews with Sanford PD he behaves as though there isn’t a recording of the call, but possibly only notes or the recollection of the dispatcher to put against his false narrative. Most notably, he never mentions the “sh*t, he’s running” part of the activity he describes.”

          I think he knows it was recorded, but it doesn’t stop him from trying to fit lies into what he remembered of the call. Things he said under his breath or as an expletive wouldn’t have registered as something he would/should recount later to police. The only thing I can think that the defense can spin is that right after he says “Sh*t, he’s running”, the dispatcher asks “He’s running? Which direction is he running?” or something like that. It’s barely a split second later that we hear GZ open the door. However, the fact that we only hear the door opening after Sean’s question is what the defense could argue contributed to GZ getting out of the car. No, Sean doesn’t say, get out of your car and run after the kid, but I wonder if GZ can argue that’s what he THOUGHT the dispatcher meant. He could say “I wasn’t in fear of my life at that point because TM was skipping away. I was only trying to see where he was going” Thin argument I know. There were many imaginary scenarios running thru GZ’s mind that night….starting with… “Looks like he’s up to no good…”

          • Why not just call 911 if he thinks NEN is recorded? I think it can be argued either way that GZ did or did not know that his NEN calls were recorded. One reason he may use the NEN line is because he assumes they are NOT recorded, but like I said, it’s hard to know what was in his mind. He’s not the not logical person in the world. Nor does he seem to pay attention to audible warnings that calls are recorded, as we have learned from his jailhouse calls and his pathetic “code” talk. It’s like he KNOWS they are recorded but assumes no one will check them later.

            • @Willisnewton, Of course we know GZ isn’t the smartest cookie, but he knows when to call 911 and when to call NEN. They had HOA meetings about that, not to mention GZ was a die hard wannabe cop. Many of his previous calls also went to NEN. Yeah, his code talk was idiotic, but he did it because he knew they were being recorded. He had no choice but to communicate through those calls. He just figured it might take awhile before someone would actually sit and listen to all the rest of the crap that was on those recordings. As Judge Lester pointed out, he only had to hide his intention to skip town for a short while, and if not for the GPS monitoring, he could have bolted right after jail.

              What he didn’t figure with the NEN call when he phoned in about TM was that somebody would actually do a detailed analysis of the timing. He thinks that what he remembers saying on the tape would be all that’s recorded. After all, we can’t actually see him talking right? Didn’t figure on us hearing door chimes, cursing under breath, wind blowing on cell phone as he was running, people like whonoze, tchoupi and NLME pulling out stopwatches and tape measures.

          • I believe we’re missing an important point. I strongly suspect that GZ knew the fix was in and that the SPD would work to cover up as long as he wasn’t blatent about it. There is obviously thousands of questions that couldve been asked during his reinactment and they didn’t ask one. They were trying to cover up for him from the beginning but they had to give a convincing reinactment in order to cover their ass. Even during the reinactment they even helped him by moving to the body location so it would let him know that people would find out where TM died at. That’s when he came up with the excuse “i think I stumbled while fighting him off” and it came the sound effects as if it made it even more believable.

  19. O’mara is an advocate for his client. The best he can do is stall, so that’s what he is doing. The longer he can put of the trial, the more time George has to be out on bail. The rest is window dressing.

        • @Loree
          Above article. Can’t be GZ’s father. This Zimmerman talks about 1935 and serving in WW2. Went to Harvard. In International diplomacy. When I first read it, I thought his father is brilliant but then read about serving in WW2 and 1935 so can’t be our guy’s father. So many many names are exactly the same when you do a search.
          But, that is some serious googling you have done, for sure.

          • Some say that’s the grandfather of George. I say a trip to ancestry dot com would solve the mystery, probably.

          • There is a big pile of this from poster amajazin on Leatherman’s blog. She says this is the grandfather and that his career indicates CIA. She also says George and Roberts Jnr are not Robert snrs’ biological children but so far has not explained whose they are, as she also says they can’t look like Gladys for some reason.
            http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/zimmerman-once-upon-a-midnight-dreary-while-i-pondered-weak-and-weary/

            I have challenged her to post a proper family tree to explain all this.

          • I just visited the link that aussie put up from the leatherman blog and read amajazin’s “pile” of stuff done on zimmerman’s geneology. I’m just amazed at his/her insistence on why all of it is so relevant, even if true? Actually, he/she doesn’t even know why it’s relevant, and seems to just revel in an ability search for names on the internet.

            On a side note, and I don’t want to sound preachy here. This isn’t even my blog, but I hope we don’t go too far down that road here (I’m saying this as a general statement, not directed at you aussie, I’m glad you challenged amajazin). GZ’s family/friends who have willingly stepped into the public eye or aided in his misdeeds are fair game. Other than that, let’s leave the rest of the family alone. I’m afraid of sliding right into the gutter next to those people at the Nuthouse.

        • Not sure about the grandfather but in this article there is mention of 4 children in Robert Zimmerman family :
          http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425
          ” which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn ”

          Yet on Robert Zimmerman Sr. website he mentions only 3 children.
          “George was born October 5, 1983 in Manassas, Virginia. He was born in Prince William Hospital. This is the same hospital where his brother was born three years earlier and where his sister would be born three years later.”

          In Mark Osterman’s testimony, he mentions that GZ has a half-sister that he is very close to….so IMO that would be Grace, his sister (and accomplice) from a different mother.

          • Not to be gossipy (totally hate that crap!), but at lease one of the children was reported as estranged by another mother way back. Don’t know if it’s true. Also read George Zimmerman is estranged from his family, but I’ve now chalked that up to the shame he caused the family because of what Zimmerman did to his cousin, identified as W9 (as O’Mara’s mentioned in his latest filing).

      • @Common sense for change
        And David Brown, the father of a young black boy accused by GZ and police of stealing bicycle.!

        Father says GZ & police showed up at his back door…GZ accused this kid of taking his bike. Wonder why this hasn’t been widely reported? Generally, NPR is legit but sure would like to see it confirmed..

        • It hasn’t been widely mostly because folks in denial probably chalked up this child’s and his father’s experience as a “race card” play. All playing the race card means is “dismiss” this evidence/testimony/real-life experience.

        • That’s exactly how stuff works, sadly.

          But, hubby helping to steal the bike while wifey calls the police is priceless! LOL

  20. I finally finished my video about GZ’s ‘re-enactment’. It’s updated, improved, covers the whole thing in one video. There’s nothing there that hasn’t been discussed in these threads at bcclist, AFAIK, but I thought it might be useful to collect it one place and in A/V form. Of course, I didn’t include EVERYTHING anyone has mentioned, only the ones that strike me as significant and also (for the most part anyway) concrete rather than speculative. And I hope I did enough to distinguish the ‘this doesn’t seem to make sense’ comments from the ‘this absolutely could not have happened’ comments.

    • it’s excellent & very helpful-so many contradictions! thank you for putting the time into this- i wouldnt be surprised if parts of it are relied upon.

    • @Whonoze, good video! Great to have visual and commentary at the same time.

      However, and I think i just posted the same comment somewhere here, but at the 9:00 min mark, you said “The operator did not ask where Martin was going until AFTER GZ left the truck.” That’s not true. The door chimes right after Sean asks that question. I think you meant to say that the operator did not ask for an address where the truck was parked until after GZ got out it.

    • Great video.

      FWIW, I think GZ moves about 17-20 feet south of the T in his re-enactment, and the shell casing is around 43-45 feet south of the same spot, or around 45.5 feet from where GZ stands in the video.

      Also, in the third/final interview with SPD, he claims he’s already at RVC when he said “he ran” and that he did not himself run to get there. IMO this is a very big lie he’s caught in and there isn’t much wiggle room to deny he’s lying to investigators in this instance. He’s pushed a false narrative in many places and ways but this one is so straightforward it deserves noting. No one can walk that fast…. and he’s not “mistaken” here, he’s lying IMO about specific details they are going over carefully, with ample opportunity to correct himself, which he does not do.

      And, you know my pet theory is that he marked the spot where he actually parked to call the NEN dispatcher on a printout of google maps shown to him by SIngleton in her second recorded interview session, before quickly amending it by moving it to the final “Frank Taaffe/ cut thru” position. IMO this initial admission, on the first corner of TTL near the mailboxes is a position that removes inconsistencies and resolved contradictions in his various narratives, since he repeatedly claims in the 3rd/final interview that he is “at the clubhouse” when he is played the NEN call recording for the first time, and the section of “he’s by the clubhouse now/ yeah, now he’s coming towards me” is played.

      I’ve added a few new illustrations to my flickr set about the body position according to w13’s iphone photo. Feel free to use anything you might find useful. There’s a panoramic shot that really illustrates how ludicrous GZ’s staggering/ stumbling tale looks when you can see the whole scene in one shot.

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630994203862/with/7761419548/

      The NEN call recording is a great way for the prosecution to impeach GZ’s credibility since the only way he can deny the implications is to testify against his own words, in essence.

    • Cool video! I don’t think it took more than 35-40 seconds for Zimmerman to move from Taaffe’s house to the clubhouse based on your video, though.

      Look at the timer from the point of the car beginning to move forward at whatever speed they were using in the re-enactment to the clubhouse. Cut out the amount of time you used to present your captions. Pick up again where the vehicle is moving.

      Again, I’m guessing 35-40 seconds for that drive in the reenactment.

      In any event, the conflicting “evidence” between the light shows and DeeDee’s testimony is that there’s no seeming evidence that Trayvon Martin was AT the MAIL SHED unless we’ve missed something on the vids. Person type shadows are mentioned in some speculative vids by those interested in proving Trayvon Martin walked by at certain times.

      If the light shows back up Zimmerman’s stories, then DeeDee’s could then be dismissed. If a time of Trayvon Martin walking towards the mail shed is timestamp provable, then Zimmerman’s stories can all be filed 13.

      What’s in the adjacent property? Aussie (or was it Lonnie) asked long ago.

      WHO ARE THE FACES ON THE CLUBHOUSE VIDS? Who are the walkers-by? I asked tchoupli awhile back, but her/his focus was elsewhere. If Trayvon Martin was already at the clubhouse and we missed it, I’m suggesting we ought to revisit those vids. Some suggest that they see Trayvon Martin on the clubhouse vids (I see that) . Some suggest they see Zimmerman (I see that, too).

      15 minutes is a long frigging time, yes? Was it Zimmerman watching at the retreat at twin trees or was zimmerman hanging out at the adjacent community?

      What time is it? (borrowed from a formerly known as Prince spinoff one-hitter.)

      • “Somebody bring me a mirror!”
        Actually, The Time had more than one hit. Two I think🙂. The guys from The Time really made their names by co-writing and producing the first 2 Janet Jackson albums. (I’m from Minneapolis…)
        It seems the East Pool Hall camera shows part of the back of the mailboxes, but a person under the awning wouldn’t necessarily be visible there. Nor would Trayvon in his dark clothing likely be visible leaving that area. Basically, he would have had to pass through the sliver of that camera’s view that sees the street, and during the time covered by the video. But I can’t see that, which doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Those camera’s have EXTREMELY wide angle lenses, so the farther you get from the camera, stuff gets really tiny in the frame really fast, and the resolution is very low and there’s no contrast range so stuff just isn’t gonna show up.

        • @whonoze
          “somebody bring me a mirror”. Actually, The Time had more than one hit. They really made their name by co-producing the first 2 Janet Jackson albums”

          If you’re married, tell your wife I’m sorry but she has competition. I think I love you. who wouldn’t? Brainiac and musicologist makes one a 2 hit wonder🙂

        • As someone from Minneapolis, I’m sure you can understand the view from above (skywalks) as opposed to the commonly sited W6 view from his ground floor balcony.

          O/T

          Ha! I was thinking Morris Day may have had two, too, after I posted. IDK. Liked JJ and her newfound independence, but MJ I loved! Love RhiRhi, too. Don’t love their personas or messages or how they chose the people they trust/permit into their lives, though.

          See “maxiocio” dot net’s video /ytdetail.php?id=Ceb71YMRJ_c.

      • DeeDee said something about apartments and awnings in her first interview. The next estate along (towards Rinehart Rd) does have apartments with a big awning in front of the building. There was an early theory Trayvon may have sheltered there for a while before moving into RATL. As more details emerged about timings, this theory had to be discarded, as
        * TM was certainly at the mailboxes when GZ made the NEN call
        * had TM sheltered in both places, he’d have barely arrived at the mailboxes at the same time as GZ got there
        * so GZ would have followed him along RVC, which TM never mentions to DeeDee

        Other vids: there are a few floating around claiming to see TM sitting on lounge chairs at the pool etc. These are misinterpreted shadows.

        There is one image that looks like someone in a jacket talking on the phone at the clubhouse. Again, misinterpreted shadows: tchoupi’s proven that is a grainy low-res image of a Ridgeline driving past the window. Go down about 9 screens http://imgur.com/a/bcAII to where there’s a photo of a Honda Ridgeline, to see this “person with cellphone”.

        There are also vids claiming to see flashlights. These are unlikely to show in 1-second time-lapse images. Also they are all “seen” at windows, with no flashlight OR person holding one at either the front or back doors, which such a person would have to pass (and look into, I’d imagine).

        These are like the audio tapes — once one person says they can hear something, suddenly everyone else can hear it too. It’s imagination. Minds joining dots into familiar patterns.

        • I mentioned before that there was a video authored by somebody that mentioned a static light and the author highlighted the light by showing viewers the cursor of what he meant. I think it’s in this thread.

          There’s also a night time view of the crime scene vid out there that shows that particular light source. It looks like a street light on the eastern side of RVC to me. If not that, it’s possibly someone’s upstairs lamp/light glowing from their window.

          Can you point me to this light on tc’s imgur (which I also use as a reference, btw)?

          The point is, if there was light, yet another of Zimmerman’s lies can be disproved. I see light. Source unknown and therefore luminence is unknown. Do you know?

    • @whonoze
      Updated video
      Thank you for putting your considerable talent in this.!!

      @willisnewton
      New pixs
      So helpful to me.

      Hands clapping for both
      Stand up and take a bow!!

  21. Was so interesting wrote:

    “What he didn’t figure with the NEN call when he phoned in about TM was that somebody would actually do a detailed analysis of the timing.”

    Indeed. (I’ve been blogging about the “long tail” of time after GZ says “these axxholes always get away but before he says “sh*t, he’s running” since April. GZ’s surrogates have cooked his goose from the start.

    I still think we can’t know for sure if GZ thought his call was recorded or not. When he spoke to SPD, each time he leaves out the running, which is of course an important detail he probably recalls speaking about. Did he think that was recorded but that no one would ever listen to it? Seems odd.

    Like I said, you can argue it either way and never really reach a conclusion. It doesn’t really matter – what matters is that the call WAS recorded, otherwise the SPD would never have known that TM ran away from him. GZ never brings it up without being prompted first.

    • Totally agree. On the off chance that someone is actual *paid to do the job of listening* in a Fox lover’s mind, there’s no competent govie worker that Zimmerman thinks he couldn’t outsmart. Of course that’s if ever that govie actually did his/her job and hasn’t yet been cut.

      On the jail calls, I’m sure he was f’king with anybody he thought may just happen to be listening, though. Why else was he throwing out SH and Peter Pan if he wasn’t hoping someone would listen? If nobody noticed his code, he’d still be able to point to recorded jail calls as “evidence in his defense” that he’d mentioned the money on his jail calls and point to Shellie, brother-in-law, SH, etc., to confirm. Remember Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara said George Zimmerman didn’t yet trust him? Zimmerman was setting up O’Mara as the fall guy should money exposure become an issue.

      On other points, maybe his master plan involved propelling his story forward via Fox? He called SH, after all! He hinted at this on the jailhouse calls. He also landed an interview with SH, too. Feat! Plan worked!

      Of course his jail code became evident after the NEN, but as we’ve seen, he’s fully capable of inventing “stories” on the fly as seen on the re-enactment video. I think he made up stories there to make himself sound like a person of compassion.

      I know everyone thinks Zimmerman is dumb. I’m sticking to he’s smart enough to f’k over the best of the so-called best and he uses his knowledge to do bad things. First clue for me was his adoption of the screams for help.

  22. To those of you who are more familiar with the witness lists, is Operator Sean on there? It just occurred to me that folks have been arguing about what GZ did or didn’t say at various points of the NEN call — “coons/goons/punks” “the keys are in the ignition” etc. But we’re all working off the same lo-fi recording of the call. Sean heard GZ’s words one technological intervention closer to the original, and he would not have had trouble hearing GZ’s words while he was talking at the same time (as we do listening to the recording). Sean pretty clearly says “Are you following him?” with a tone of at least some concern and surprise in response to George’s utterance of “fucking —-“. So what did Sean think GZ said?

    • Re: recording of NEM call: do we know whether thde FBI has digitized, or otherwise enhanced that recording? Whonoze, your vid got cited in Leatherman’s blog tonight, in a good way!

    • Good point Whonoze! He’d also remember what was going on around him at the time —-what we may hear as interference on his side.

    • I do not see a Sean or Shawn listed anywhere on any of the State’s discovery documents.

      • @LeeLee –

        Would be nice to know what Sean/Shawn actually heard, but I don’t think it’s required since we have the released recording. Maybe they’ll add Sean/Shawn to the witness list later.

      • As dispatcher he’d handle about 100 calls like that a day. Is he likely to remember much about this one? any more than is already on the tape?

  23. According to todays article in USA today, GZ has spent $50k on “security.” One wonders if he is being blackmailed by Mark Osterman. That’s an excessive amount of money for his friend to charge him.

    He’s spent the money like it was always going to keep coming in at the initial rate of 100k plus per week.

    Osterman may know enough to put him away for a long long time. Is that why he may be overpaying his friend?

  24. so Zimmerman called the police for the house near taafes (he describes it about 2 mins into your video). When the police got their the windows were open and the door was unlocked. So??. Pretty stupid criminal if he couldn’t get into a house with open windows and unlocked doors. Or perhaps this was another instance of someone doing nothing wrong but GZ found him suspicious….has anyone heard the call? was the “suspect” that didn’t actually break in to an unlocked house black? So the police secured the premises and left. How does GZ know that? Are they in the habit of filing a report with the person who made the call, or was GZ still loitering and spoke to them when they got there?

    Sounds to me like nothing was taken, the house was unlocked so if the “suspect” was in fact a thief he would have cleared the place out by the time the cops arrived. GZ tries to make it sound like there was criminal activity going on which justifies his suspision of Trayvon….um no….all the police found was an unlocked house…no criminal activity there georgie so why bring it up….it’s not illegal to forget to lock your door and the person you found suspicious didn’t commit a crime that time either.

    • Jo, Big hero George sticking around is what prevented the criminal from doing the intended robbery. Get it?

      Poor crim hung around for a while having a smoke, hoping this suspicious GZ watching him would go away, so he can get on with his “job” but, no, G hung around until the cops got there, cleverly thwarting the criminal master plan of entering a wide-open window.

      And one of the reasons for telling this story was, to say it took the cops soooo long that time, and this time he’s in a hurry to go to the store, that is why he decided to keep going and just call it in.

      • of course…lucky george was creeping then….although i think GZ is more of a worry than anyone else in that neighbourhood. What a slime ball. He is lucky no one dragged him from his car and beat him for being a creepy, perverted, nosey, trouble making twat.

        I can’t post a link because i don’t remember the specifics, but recently a young teenager was shot or stabbed during/after he had broken into someones house. The lady who owned the house said in an interview that while she appreciates the person who helped, resulting in the death of the teen, she would prefer that he had stolen everything she owned and still be alive. So true. Property is not worth any life.

        • of course if someone tried breaking into my home while i and my kids were there, i would fight to the death and not wait to find out what their intentions are, but steal my shit when i’m not there and i’d prefer you got away with your life…nothing i own is worth someone getting killed for.

          • Everything we own already has blood on it. The middle passage, Sand Creek and Wounded Knee, Pullman and McCormick, the Haymarket, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Chile….

          • Whonose: agree 100% about the blood on our possessions, and knowing the story of each and every Sand Creek and Pullman strike etc is what makes me get up every morning and seek justice.

            The arc is long but it bends towards justice.

    • @Jo, I just went over to axiom amnesia to listen to GZ’s previous NEN calls

      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/zimmerman-9-1-1-calls/

      Calls #2-4 related to a burglary in the neighborhood. In call #2, GZ said shellie saw the guy who did the burglary, but really I think she only saw a guy running in the back yard. Calls #3 and 4 were about GZ seeing black guys who “fit” the description of the burglars.

      In call #5 (Feb 2), he describes a black “gentleman” that he’d seen previously on trash days, picking up trash. He says that guy was wearing a bomber hat, bomber jacket and plaid pajama pants. He keeps walking up to a house and walking along side it, back to the street and back to the house. GZ knows the owner of the house who is caucasian, In this call, he does not say that the guy was doing anything but walking to the side of the house and back. He also does NOT mention any open windows or that the guy was even looking into the house.

      In call #6, GZ calls about a house with open windows. Does not mention that there was a suspect there at all.

      Later, police caught the guy (E. Burgess) who had stolen a laptop, due to calls from roofers working in the neighborhood. It has been widely reported that Burgess was the same guy GZ saw “peering into a neighbor’s house”

      http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8734981

      It’s not clear if calls #5 and #6 were both at Taaffe’s house, but it seems like GZ was MORPHING all of those circumstances together trying to make people believe he “thwarted a burglary”.

      Burgess was a teenager. GZ would not have described him as a “gentleman” and I can’t imagine he’d be walking around picking up trash. GZ may or may not have seen Burgess in one of those calls from #2-4, but in none of those calls did he describe that the individuals he was calling about were doing anything. Only that they matched the description of the reported burglary. i.e. young black males. Facts are that Burgess is a black male who lived in the neighborhood and committed a burglary. GZ called on just about every black male that he saw. He had pretty good odds of “catching” the thief that way.

      Thing was, he didn’t actually “catch” Burgess, and wasn’t satisfied an arrest had been made. In one of those calls, he tells the dispatcher that “they” always run away quickly. Consciously or subconsciously, maybe he thought if he kept tailing more young black males, he’d eventually catch one himself.

      • Actually, call #5 is referred to by GZ during his Feb 29th interview with Serino & Singleton.
        During that interview, GZ manages to put up one of his famous lies. Indeed, he states that dispatcher asked him to move to a place from where he could see the suspect.
        The interesting thing is that it is the same lie he used concerning TM.

        • @TC, thanks. I just went to listen to GZ’s interview with Serino/Singleton (2/29) again. Was skipping around the first time so I completely missed that. I guess you guys had discussed it before I joined the blog! I think GZ was in some sort of Groundhog Day loop where everything keeps happening the same way.

        • Another interesting in GZ’s Feb 29th interview with Serino/Singleton. (Maybe you guys picked this up long ago, I don’t know). When explaining his arrest at the bar, GZ said to the undercover cop “What’s your problem?” before the cop grabbed him, and then GZ pushed him back into the wall. For a guy with bad memory problems, he seems to tell a good narratives, until of course he is challenged, and then he doesn’t remember again.

          I wonder since he couldn’t tell the cops that TM actually said “What are you following me for” as reported by DeeDee, he had to make up the line “You got a f*cking problem?”. Or maybe that was EXACTLY what he said to the undercover cop along with the shove that got him arrested.

  25. GZ made the mistake of calling TM a suspect instead of a subject in his written statement to SPD. Does anyone know the chronology of when this was written in relation to when he was interviewed?

    He continually conflates old activity near FTs unit with what he supposedly saw on the night of the shooting. Its easy for him to do since IMO he didn’t see TM there ever. His grammar and syntax give him away and even before I’d heard dee dee say TM was at the mail boxes I’d always found that part of his tale fishy sounding. The thing that is so appalling is that GZs lies are nonstop from start to finish, and there are semi-reasonable people who convince themselves he’s telling the truth.

    • I believe, but would have to hunt it up, the written statement was immediately after the interview with SIngleton. An “ok now put that briefly into writing” kind of conclusion to the interview. That is the normal order, too.

      He doesn’t say “suspect” in the interview, where he is a civilian being interviewed by cops. But for the written statement he switches to wannabe-cop mode and tries to make it look like an official report.

      I totally agree about the conflation; it’s all a cover to avoid saying anything specific about TM. He’s in a pickle, because he has to place the first sighting there, as the only likely place to notice suspicious activity, but needs to avoid any suggestion he followed, yet has to somehow get them both to the mailboxes and the T.

      The “he’s here now… coming over…” is IMO the first time he actually starts to talk of present-tense actions concurrent with the call.

      • Thanks for the reply. I’m curious about the chronology because GZ writes his original narrative that leaves out the clubhouse and goes straight to what seems to the be the circling move after seeing the youth somewhere else first. He’s vague about where he first saw the teen, but notes the dispatcher took note of his location before the “suspect” dled to a darkened area from which he soon re-emerged and circled the car.

        In the second interview with SIngleton, GZ is shown a map and has to admit/ invent the activity near the clubhouse, which causes him to have to duplicate the “dispatch told me to move” fiction since he now needs it twice. His original telling of this fictional instruction was to cover why he got out of his car.

        If I had to guess when the written account was laid down, I’d say it was prior to the second recorded interview with SIngleton since it includes none of what is invented/ related newly there. Perhaps it was the first thing he wrote, I am not sure. Doing it after the first oral interview also makes sense. But the evolution of his false narrative is the relevant thing to note – once shown a map, GZ is caught up in his lies and chooses not to retreat but to keep digging his hole deeper.

        • I could be wrong, but I got the impression it was a statement Zimmerman wrote out prior to the reenactment.

        • YES and once on site for the reenactment, he discovers another gap (50 ft from T to scene) and has to extemporise the fly-swat/stumble incident, also never before mentioned.

          • Agree that the stumbling 50 feet is invented on the spot. He also thought it either wasn’t worth mentioning to his father or else he’s already expressed it sans stumbling because his father tells it without the stumbling as well. Thats why I’ve been saying since April that the location of the body alone proves GZ lied to investigators.

    • Not defending GZ in the following. In fact, his association of Trayvon to FT’s “break-ins” speaks to the depraved mind.

      I’m noticing the witnesses have their very emotional experiences bleed or conflate over into previous events.

      W3 is so traumatized by hearing the ‘Helps’ the way they were that she remembers that as the first thing she heard. I think she heard the cries first like everybody else. She was in her front office at the time. When she walks to the back window and peeks under the blinds, that’s probably when she hears ‘help’. It takes yet more time to go back to the office, dial, and connect still 15 seconds before the shot.

      The gunshot made a big impression on her. She makes the mistake of saying her reason for calling was due to knowing about the gun. But the interrogator straightened this out by getting her to recall she only heard the gun. It was too dark to see anything except the white shirt. So, hearing the gun got her so scared that she catastrophized a scenario of the shooter downstairs breaking into her house to hide.

      • Could be. I took it to mean she saw something — the gun. Whatever she saw, it frightened her. You don’t become scared for your own safety just because two people are wrestling out back ordinarily, do you? She specifically said she thought the guy with the gun was going to run. She specifically said that the guy with the gun had been handcuffed after she identified the “bad” guy as the one on top.

        • LOL. I didn’t see nothing… ‘cept a tee-shirt. Oh, yeah, and a male facing away from me. And oh, yeah, and another male underneath. “And then there’s a concrete block on the… in the grass… right there. And it was like right on that area.”

          • Exactly! She saw something! And… the descriptive information she provided on her call was recorded by 9-1-1 unlike some of the other statements defense is relying on. John (W6) didn’t give a description of the wrestling participants, IIRC. But John (W6) also said wresting, not MMA blows on his 9-1-1 recorded call.

        • I dunno where you all live, but If heard two guys having ANY kind of fight right outside my window I’d be plenty scared. But the sound of fighting is one thing, and those screams are another. Would I be scared into hiding, or scared into doing something? I’d like to think the latter, but i don’t really know.

  26. Is there a problem with the BCC site, one or more of the postings from july are missing. thanks

    • Lots of money missing. Even deducting the $100K for bond, they had over $200K (close to $250K IIRC). Attorney hasn’t been paid. Money must have been spent by the Zimmermans.

      On what?! It’s only August and the account was opened sometime in April, right? If so, that’s only a few months. Also, if IIRC, they spent/hid/transferred/converted to cash thousands of the dollars within a few weeks and then begged for more and received it.

  27. Still out of breath.
    I need a time estimation. How long does it take someone like Trayvon to recover their breathing after sprinting home?

    DeeDee to de la Rionda:
    “…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. And I say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run cause…I could have known he not going to run, cause he out of breath. and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run. And then he say…I told him, ‘Why you not runnin’? He say, ‘I’m not go’ run,’ cause he tired, but I know he tired.”

    10 seconds for the breath. Maybe a minute for being tired. This could tell us when he was found. If Trayvon arrived home about 7:12, according to this clue from DeeDee he was probably found sometime in the 7:12 minute. Of course, that would mean the ‘old man’ wasn’t GZ. We’ve been thinking he was chased north. I’m saying for the time to work out this might have been a slower following than a running chase. What say you?

    • Take into account he walked from Brandi’s home to 711 then back to the complex before he started the run. I don’t know the address of 7-11, maybe someone here knows, I am not sure. If you smoke you get winded also, even though he was young smoking does slow you down and you tire easily, IMO.

      • i believe the 7-11= 1125 RINEHART RD SANFORD, FL 32771; estimated at .7-.8 mi depending on address in retreat at twin lakes. looks like front gate is most drect route ? Something that bothers me is that twin trees lane is the entrance street from both ends of the community- so you’d always tell people that street name when you gave diretions to the community- so how does GZ not remember it after 3 years of living there and giving out directions for all that time?

        • I don’t know what his deal is. He’s on drugs or something.

          The thing is, he really couldn’t come up with the name of the street. He doesn’t even know the street number system (he HAS to know every address in The retreat has 4 digits, but he says the clubhouse is 111). I’m wondering if he didn’t have a few stiff bumps around dinner time. Booze slurs your speech, messes with your memory, and makes many people foolishly aggresive. Tell me again why they didn’t do a tox test or a guy who shot an unarmed teenager? (Forget it, Jake, it’s Florida…)

    • We have testimony that he was at the mailboxes and walked away, then ran. We have physical evidence he was near the tan bag and his body was found by his cell phone. Witnesses saw him somewhere between the townhouses near the southbound path. Other than that, it’s hearsay and conjecture. We can all concoct possible scenarios until the cows come home but none of that will bring him back or secure a conviction on its own. Might I respectfully suggest we either await more data or move on at this time. Given what we know at present I don’t see much we can all agree on aside from the idea that a lying man shot him dead after an altercation began which dee dee heard but no one saw.

      • Ha! I didn’t do it. It’s NLME’s blog so he has to take all the credit for the new decor! I like it, though.

        BTW, I love redecorating! If life came with do-overs, I’d persue a career as an interior designer or home deco! Color and what’s visual is totally my thing!

        • So do I. I like taking something like beat up old cabinets and refinish them to their prior glory. Lots of work, but the result is worth it.

        • The change of scenery was unanticipated but it sounds like appreciated — maybe I need to permanently find a new WordPress theme?!?

          What was up with the new theme?

          Leelee DMed me saying something was weird with the blog. My first reaction was to change the theme to see if that fixed the issue. It didn’t. I posted a WordPress forum question, somebody responded with a fix, and the blog seems to be working properly again.

          Thank you again, Leelee. (With nearly 100% certainty, I didn’t change anything coding wise but) There was an issue caused by a coding change whereas the right column disappeared, the Miami Herald posting was moved in its place, the July postings disappeared, and the homepage was nearly impossible to navigate. So weird. If this happens again, can somebody please email me at thelist@bcclist.com?

          • If you’re not coding it, are you using linked styles/themes? That could account for the mishaps.

    • @NLME, this format is nicer since more of a long post can be seen on the same page. However, the side bar is locked, can’t scroll down to see all of what’s there. I check both Internet Explorer and Google Chrome browsers and same thing. Doesn’t bother me because I don’t use the sidebar, but you might care…..

      • Something strange happened to the bcclist.com either today/yesterday. (With nearly 100% certainty, I didn’t change anything coding wise but) There was an issue caused by a coding change whereas the right column disappeared, the Miami Herald posting was moved in its place, the July postings disappeared, and the homepage was nearly impossible to navigate. The bug has now been fixed. Very weird…

  28. ParksCrump Attorneys (@ParksCrump)
    8/15/12 8:10 PM
    George Zimmerman NOT going to use a Stand Your Ground defense in Trayvon Martin murder case | Mail Online ow.ly/d0187

  29. *SATIRE WARNING*
    *THIS INFO IN THIS POST IS NOT ‘REAL”*

    Breaking news! The Orlando Sentinal reports it has obtained transcripts of two 911 calls placed by Miami teenager Trayvon Martin the night he was shot and killed by Neighborhood Watch captain George Zimmerman in a gated community in Sanford.

    CALL #1
    Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. The line is being recorded. This is John.
    Trayvon: Yo, there’s a bunch of little kids in this neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy drivin’ around. It’s rainin’, and he keeps comin’ by, lemme get the address… 1111 Retreat View Circle. He just drivin’ around, lookin around.
    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
    Trayvon: He ain’t black.
    Dispatcher: Can you see what he’s wearing?
    Trayvon: Kinda red jacket. But’s he bald and got of them biker beards and mustaches… a Fu Manchu thing
    Dispatcher: OK, he’s just driving around the area?
    Trayvon: Now he’s drivin’ right up by me…
    Dispatcher: OK…
    Trayvon: Now he just starin’ at me.
    Dispatcher: OK—you said it’s 1111 Retreat View?
    Trayvon: It’s the clubhouse…
    Dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse right now?
    Trayvon: No. I’m by the clubhouse. He parked down the street now.
    Dispatcher: What street?
    Trayvon: I think it’s Twin Trees Lane. And he’s a white dude. Could be Cuban or somethin’ though. Hard to tell.
    Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
    Trayvon: He’s in a big ass white truck… I dunno, thirty maybe? Pretty old.
    Dispatcher: OK
    Trayvon: Somethin’ look wrong with this dude. He look like he’s on drugs or something. Up to no good, you know. How long until you get somebody over here?
    Dispatcher: What’s your name, son.
    Trayvon: Trayvon Martin.
    Dispatcher: What are you doin’ there, Trayvon?
    Trayvon: Jes’ walkin home from the corner store, man.
    Dispatcher: Well if this gentleman is just driving or sitting in his truck he hasn’t done anything wrong. So you just walk on home now, but call us back if he does anything, OK?
    Trayvon: (under his breath) Fucking cops… (to dispatcher) OK.
    (call ends)

    CALL #2
    Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. The line is being recorded. This is John.
    Trayvon: (labored breath) This is Trayvon Martin. I called a couple minutes ago about this crazy white dude in a big white truck.
    Dispatcher: Are you following him?
    Trayvon: Nah, man. He following me!
    Dispatcher: He’s following you right now?
    Trayvon: I ran when I got past his truck, and he come out after me!
    Dispatcher: You were running?
    Trayvon: Yeah.
    Dispatcher: We don’t need you to do that.
    Trayvon: I ain’t running now. I just walkin’ fast.
    Dispatcher: Do you live in the area?
    Trayvon: I’m stayin’ at my Dad’s house for awhile.
    Dispatcher: What’s the address?
    Trayvon: It’s on Retreat View… Shit, I can’t say it out loud, this dude could hear it. We got little kids in the house.
    Dispatcher: Are you sure he’s following you?
    Trayvon: I ran. Then I hid for awhile. Then I come back out and he behind me again.
    Dispatcher: It could just be a coincidence. Can you stop, look back, and tell me what he’s doing?
    Trayvon: He’s got his hand in his waistband.
    Dispatcher: You mean like…
    Trayvon: I don’t know what his deal is. He’s got something in his hand.
    Dispatcher: Okay we’ve got someone on the way. What address are you at right now.
    Trayvon: I dunno. It’s a sidewalk, cut-through behind the buildings.
    Dispatcher: Do you want to meet the officer when he arrives?
    Trayvon: (under his breath) Assholes never get here on time… (to Dispatcher) OK… yeah, where the cop gonna be!?
    Dispatcher: Why don’t you head back toward the clubhouse then, that will be easy for the officer to find.
    Trayvon: OK.
    Dispatcher: And it’s a white guy, looks like a biker?
    Trayvon: You got it.
    Dispatcher: Alright Trayvon, I’ll let them know to meet you around there…
    Trayvon: He’s comin’ to check me out…
    (call ends)

    The Sentinal added: “According to George Zimmerman’s police statements, just after this call, the lanky, slightly built Miami teen savagely attacked the former bar bouncer, and would have killed him with his bare hands, had not the Sanford man been armed with a Ket-Tec PF9, and been allowed by the great Constitution of the United States of America to employ Second Amendment remedies to protect his life, his wife, and his community.”

    *THIS INFO IN THIS POST IS NOT ‘REAL”*
    *END SATIRE WARNING*

  30. A few things I noticed:

    Page 7 of the new ACCIDENTAL evidence dump – “There is a possibility of an additional contributor to the partial DNA profile obtained from exhibit DMS-22A” … Does this mean that Georges DNA might have been on/in the skittles as well? If so he was definitely frisking TM and searching for something OR maybe Georgie Porgie decided to partake in a little snack while he waited for Police.

    Page 11 – “HE NEVER TOLD ME HE WAS AN OFFICER AND ASSAULTED ME FIRST”… “The same unit was conducting a sting at UCF and an officer was killed by an OPD officer because he discharged his weapon and did not identify himself” … Seems to me GZ has admitted he knows the importance of identifying himself, and the importance of identifying yourself when a firearm is involved. If officers must do it, why didn’t he? He clearly knew he had to identify himself.

    Page 11 – Did anyone else catch the fact that he ONCE AGAIN did not accept any blame for his actions or admit to anything. He put it off on the other person, and named dropped by mentioning his father to clear his name. I’m pretty sure that’s what he did the night of th shooting as well.

    Page 24 – He was denied his AA degree. So why did he claim he had it during interviews/interogation?

    ************************************************************************************

    The next few items tell me that GZ already had an idea of what made TM suspicious, already knew what to say to get away with it, etc. I looked at the evidence and went to the college website to see what each course consisted of. Here is what was in the catalog:

    Page 26 – PSY 2012 – General Psychology
    This is an introductory course which surveys the field of psychology and basic principles and concepts utilized to understand human behavior. The major areas of study include development, learning, perception, motivation, emotions, personality, abnormal behavior, psychotherapy and testing measurements. This course partially satisfies the writing requirement of S.B.E. 6A-10.030.

    Page 27-CCJ 2618 – Evil Minds – Violent Predators
    This course will provide a basic understanding of those individuals who engage in predator violence: serial killers, mass murderers, serial rapists and stalkers. This course will discuss the ways law enforcement is dealing with these types of persons to detect, arrest and prosecute them. The course will also discuss ways in which male and female predators are similar and different. The course will also discuss which victims are selected and why a particular person becomes a victim.

    Page 28 – PLA 2303 – Criminal Litigation
    This course includes a study of the definition and classification of criminal offenses, the principles of criminal responsibility and the legal procedures in a criminal prosecution. The student who successfully completes this course will have an understanding of the elements of crimes, have performed hands-on research, have drafted documents and have participated in oral trial presentations regarding a hypothetical criminal case.

    Page 28 – CCJ 1020 – Introduction to Criminal Justice
    This course consists of the history, examination and evaluation of the courts, the police and the correctional organizations of the criminal justice system in the United States today. Contemporary problems and possible solutions are also considered.

    Page 28 – CJE 2600 – Criminal Investigation
    The fundamental principles, concepts and theory of investigation, interviews, interrogations, surveillance and sources of information, case preparations, problems in criminal investigation and investigative techniques of specific crimes are explored in this course.

    Page 28 – CJJ 2002 – Juvenile Delinquency
    This course is designed to provide students with an understanding of the problem of juvenile delinquency. Topics include the history of juvenile delinquency and defining and measuring of juvenile delinquency in American society, theories of delinquency, the law enforcement role, juvenile court process, juvenile recidivism and the social and cultural influences involved in defining delinquency.

    I’ve taken psychology. One thing that I know they cover is body language. When you lie, tell the truth, remember events, dive into your emotions – your eyes tell it all. Your body language gives signals. He was very controlled in his interview on tv so I’m sure this was covered so that he didnt give TOO MUCH away…. But I’m going to say he thought he knew enough to get away with the crime, knew enough to hide his body language, knew certain key points to mention, and I’m definitely going to say he may think he knows enough to handle his own case. GZ is running the show and MOM is probably letting him so he can throw himself under the bus and MOM collects the money. He might have failed most of the classes but I’m pretty sure he picked up on some of the key points.
    *********************************************************************************
    Page 46 – This might not mean much to some but it means something to me. I always wondered what box he checked under ethnicity. hahaha. As someone who is biracial you tend to identify with one side more than the other as you grow up. GZ marks hispanic. So why all of the racial comments on his myspace against hispanics? I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again – you dont have to be white to racially profile. You can profile anyone, even if they are the same race as you. You place people in stereotypes. And that’s what GZ did. Him being hispanic and speaking so poorly of them only tells me he has even worse issues that I thought.

    And am I missing something? Im in CA. High school here is 4 years. This says he completed 3 years of high school and got his diploma. Is high school only 3 years there? or did he graduate early? Or does he not really have a diploma and thats just another lie hes told?

    Page 48 – The copy of his drivers license. Is this an attachement to the previous document or the document following it? If it is the one following it – where is his renewed license? Wouldn’t that be something if he was driving around that night on a suspended license? I noticed in the docs that the previous pages didn’t request a copy of a license (unless I overlooked the fine print). The documents for the testing did however. The signature on them is dated for 2010, and his license expired in 2008.

    Page 67 – he checks 4 years of high school. Which one is it George?

    Page 69 – He says English is his first language. The Yes box is clearly marked. I could have sworn he said in a televised interview that spanish was his first language? Can he please make up his mind? Obviously he was just trying to gain his hispanic supporters by saying that. Yet another lie from George.

    • Since GZ grew up speaking both English and Spanish, I think it is proper to say that both were his first language. However, he probably did not have formal education in Spanish (he could have learned how to speak it from mother / grandmother but not necessary read or write) until high school, which is why he did poorly in Spanish class then.

      GZ identifies himself as Hispanic both on his myspace page and on his school records. His disparaging remarks were about Mexicans, so I don’t think he personally identifies with them. That’s like saying the Chinese would identify with the Japanese, not so! Racism is a very complicated thing. However, by being Hispanic himself, he probably felt more at liberty to make those comments publicly. As in, “It’s OK for me to joke about Mexicans because I’m Hispanic too.”

    • dimor 226 –

      “But I’m going to say he thought he knew enough to get away with the crime, knew enough to hide his body language, knew certain key points to mention, and I’m definitely going to say he may think he knows enough to handle his own case.”

      I’m with you on that one! I noticed early on that George Zimmerman likes to say “Exact” and “Exactly” in a very peculiar way. Lo and behold, he is depending on a lie that entails having to get “an exact” address for dispatch in order to excuse his hunt. So, to me the emphasis seems to have been just to make sure an “exact” address for RVC was some how needed in his story to the police in order to make the police responsible for Zimmerman’s own actions.

      Psych, huh? I have a question…

      Do you think it’s Zimmerman is just mad at the police and anybody involved in the legal system?

      – officer assaulted
      – public thrashing of the police in 2011
      – bff is an ousted law enforcer
      – neighbor (Taaffe) is aware that Zimmerman is unhappy with SPD response time
      – stiffed the lawyer in his previous employment case
      – dissed his first set of lawyers in the current case
      – spoke at jailhouse in a way that implicates his current lawyer in the current case
      – daddy’s a former magistrate

      [more]

      • “Do you think it’s Zimmerman is just mad at the police and anybody involved in the legal system?”

        Freudian theory: He had ADD and grades were terrible. Probably got in trouble a lot growing up, and was whooped by momma, who wanted him to become better, to climb the social ladder. As much as he resented her, he internalized her expectations and began to follow the criminal justice/law route. Unconsciously, he was trying to become like daddy and therefore fulfill momma’s dreams for him. In doing so, he gets an overinflated ego and becomes obsessed with putting the world in its order to compensate for his own failures at jobs and school. He in fact thinks he’s above the cops and lawyers as in his mind he was heading for the Judge’s bench already. He gloated over getting those previous charges dropped. But he’s kinda lonely in that place in his mind, he’s fearful and trusts no one.

        KISS theory: He’s a lying idiot with a screw loose.

        • “KISS theory: He’s a lying idiot with a screw loose.”

          LOL! Indeed, indeed! I’ll buy that.

          • Speaking of which- “fruedian slips”. Hes made SEVERAL throughout this process. Where the truth comes out intentionally by slips of the tongue or pen and he has to catch himself and cover it up. “my wife…i mean I…” … Marking the car in the correct spot and then crossing it out. And my fave “i placed my hand on his…i mean he placed his hand over my mouth”. Iv always figured hes told the events that happened but switched it around. He knows it was dark and nobody clearly saw what happened but he knows they saw figures and heard. I think he told TM hes going to die tonight, he tried to muffle tms cries for help, he was the one holding tm down. but he switched the roles for the sake of the story… Iv found several Fruedian slips. Il have to listen to his reenactment and interviews and point them all out one day in a list… Hes actually told on himself several times.

            • Speaking of slips… do left-handed people typically write off he page or do people that are right-handed do this when pretending to be left-handed or ambis?

          • KISS…Ace Frehley…..what?….Oh, THAT KISS! It honestly took me about 2 minutes to figure that one out…..I need to up my dosage of Adderall….

        • @wsi
          “Do you think GZ was just mad at everyone in legal system?”

          Re: Carmax/ w.21
          More than that…compulsive calls to HR Hotline (65 in 6 mths.–please note these are not calls to 911), pattern of behavior, bullying done when person is in a more vulnerable position, need to control, severely deficient in rational thinking, (GZ calls HR Hotline complaining of his own boss). And this behavior is more recent …2008

          Please go to 13min to hear SA quite by accident uncover this 65 calls to Hotline info.

          http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/05/18/486523/audio-witness-says-george-zimmerman-repeatedly-bullied-him-at-work-targeted-him-with-racist-jokes/

          • @ 2dogsonly, yes, two words “CONTROL FREAK” I had actually heard this interview awhile back and knew about GZ’s firing from the car dealership due to constant complaining to HR. However, this former co-worker doesn’t say specify 65 calls to HR in this interview. Do you have a link where it says that or more specific info about those calls?

            • @wsi says do I have link to 65 calls GZ made to HR

              I tried but can’t find it….how about “so many, HR says they ‘ve never received so many” that is around 13 min. mark.

              Sorry it took me so long to respond.

            • @2dogsonly, thanks. It’s alright. Your mentioning the specific number of 65 calls made to the car dealership HR just made me think someone actually compiled a list of calls. It’ll be interesting to know what kind of things he complained about and what actually got him fired. Is it relevant to the case? Perhaps not, but would be an additional insight into his love/hate relationship with authority, and his propensity to take matters into his own hands. He’s 28 and his level of complaining outdoes the old neighborhood curmudgeon!

    • None. Maybe they think the police planted it there to go along with the conspiracy theory that the police had it in for him and set him up because George Zimmerman “outed” them in 2011.

      • The phone held to GZs ear in w13Jon’s bloody head photo is different looking IMO. Plus of course the phone photographed lying in the wet grass is well, lying in the set grass still long after GZ was transported to the SPD cop shop, where he was in possession of his phone and pulled numbers off it for singleton as heard in the first interview.

        I’m not aware of what GZ’s fan club is pushing but unless they can account for the above factors I wouldn’t give it much thought.

        • Hmm.. What do you mean by “different looking”? I first thought the gray part was Trayvon Martin’s body in the background before taking a second look to see it had to be a phone.

          What was different looking about the phone to you?

    • Nothing in that made sense. You have to keep in mind that blog you cited came from a frequent poster on TCTH, and the source of that claim came from someone with the pseudonym OdessaGirl who’s a permanent fixture in the comments section of ClickOrlando. She claims to be a friend of GZ. Personally I think she’s a weird groupie.

    • copying over what I responded to this on Leatherman.

      “The source for that claim is an internet user known as OdessaGirl. You can find her claims at http://disqus.com/OdessaGirl/ once there, click Activity then load all of her comments.” (quote from diwataman).

      It is well worth going to check out Odessagirl’s postings. She claims to be a close family friend/relative of GZ, and therefore to have all kinds of inside knowledge of the case. Some of it quite strange and contrary to published evidence.

      With regard to TM’s phone, she once posted that his phone had actually been left behind in Miami — the kind of “knowledge” that would not be available to anyone no matter how “inside” they are.

      The latest rumour about Osterman writing a book also comes from her.
      She is not a troll. She is calm and confident in her posts and consistent in her claims, and has one or two supporters. She seems to totally genuinely believe everything she says. Except what she says seems to be happening in another dimension.
      ==============
      Odessagirl made that claim about the phone months ago. ConNuthouse and diwataman only just noticed, apparently.
      She is not a troll. She is calm and confident in her posts and consistent in her claims, and has one or two supporters. She seems to totally genuinely beleive everything she says. Except what she says seems to be happening in another dimension.

      • “She seems to totally genuinely believe everything she says. Except what she says seems to be happening in another dimension.” That’s right. Kinda describes the padded section of the psychiatric ward. I just now read about her claim of a book coming from Osterman, and that he had pre-taped a show with Dr. Phil. Ok, when that comes out, then I can believe she has some sort of inside knowledge, Treepers were also saying that she claimed her address was found out and the media was harrassing her. Ok, if that’s the case, then why haven’t we heard about her real identity yet? She just revels too much in her role as the internet GZ defender. Just sayin’.

        • Chick (if this person is indeed female) needs to hop off GZ’s dick (as do a number of others).

          (Please, pardon my language, as there’s not really a nice way to say that.)

          • I could still be totally right and this woman is a groupie. But if this woman is who she’s alluding to be, then she’s really bad at internet code like GZ and Shellie. She keeps reassuring GZ’s supporters that there are wealthy donors waiting in the wings to give money and that there will be money available when need be. Yet O’Mara is out there claiming GZ is about to be indigent. Not the smartest thing to be doing. BTW, I have said here before that I don’t like going after non-involved family members, but this one has been busting at the seams trying to out herself, posting information about herself on TCTH (under a different pseudonym, justfactsplz), and then the moderator had to redact her posts (he apparently believes she’s for real). She has said she’ll reveal her identity in a month, presumably right before this “book” of MO is gonna come out.

          • Wait, wait…if she’s already been outed, she can’t out herself! I’m inclined to believe this person is a delusional fanatic. I don’t buy for a second that this person has insider knowledge. Of course the nuts from the CON house think she’s legit – they live in their own little fantasy land, and facts or logic don’t matter there.

          • “The nuts live in their own little fantasy land, and facts or logic don’t matter there.”.

            This land has a name. it’s called Florida. (c.f. Bush v. Gore…)

          • @qetno,

            I said the same thing a while back on the blog where OdessaGirl posts…for her to stop riding GZ jock! Also advised her and rest of the ‘Alices’ ..to not follow GZ too far down that rabbit hole!

        • “She seems to totally genuinely believe everything she says. Except what she says seems to be happening in another dimension.”

          All the more reason to believe that she IS related to GZ. They have the same psychotic tendencies that they come up with BS, spew it out everywhere and completely believe it without realizing how utterly rediculous it sounds. I think they may both live in the same fantacy world. Maybe it’s actually GZ posing as a supporter. Maybe its SZ. lol

          • No, she’s a generation older. Late 50’s, twice married, grown children etc. Gives away a lot of snippets about herself, all internally consistent, especially on the non-GZ threads she also comments on. Would not be hard to find if one could be bothered. Doubt the media has bothered though or they’d have said something by now.

            • The snippets that she gives out about herself reads like a soap opera. She and her husband have had every type of affliction including cancer (herself) and amnesia following an accident (husband).

              http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html#comment-588299249
              See comment section: she claims to be a friend of GZ and SZ, and specifically a relative of MO. If she’s real, I doubt she has direct authorization from GZ or O’Mara to be saying the stuff that she does.

            • ****** DISCLAIMER: MY SPECULATIONS ONLY and why I’m concerned about the crazy Odessa lady at all. ******

              Now if she was only defending GZ because she’s is just personal friend, that’s one thing, and it does seem like she started out that way. She started her internet commenting 4 months ago saying she was just an old lady who happened to know GZ. Later on, she describes herself as a friend and then begins to thank supporters “on behalf” of GZ. That’s fine, and it would be fine for her to speculate anonymously with the other pro-GZ supporters. But her spreading of so-called “forthcoming evidence” about TM is dangerous and will lead people to believe it absolutely because she’s claiming to be an insider.

              @ aussie, Actually, you are right, her information is internally consistent. The media wouldn’t bother with her. In reading her posts and matching up some information, I’m about 80% sure she’s a step-in-law of MO. @qetno, I guess you’re right, I can’t out her if she’s already revealed so much about herself, including being a gun-toting grandma, her age, her birthplace, her husband’s age, his first name, his ex-wife’s first name, the county she lives in and other cities she had lived in, counties her children live in, occupation/city of her youngest daughter, etc. (but I’m still not posting her name in case I’m absolutely wrong) @CSFC, a friend and a groupie indeed!

              She mentions her “source” and meetings with the “security council”, which my guess are SO and MO, respectively. She mentions her stepdaughter arguing with someone on some blog/site, so one of you guys may well have been arguing with SO elsewhere. I think she happened to know GZ maybe from parties like his “graduation” shin-dig, but she probably knew him and SZ less well than the neighbors since she lives 30 miles from Sanford (Yeah, she revealed that too). Any information that she gets would be from SO, but I just wonder how good of a relationship that they would have. Based on her posting she married her current husband 13 years ago, so SO would have been an adult at the time she entered the family.

              Here’s what I think, she and SO are digging the internet for pro-GZ information. They add in a bit of her own imagination, and give their theories to MO, who they think will pass it onto GZ’s lawyer. I say “think” because MO might be like “yeah OK ladies, I’ll let him know about it….” just to keep the peace. Therefore, her claim of the defense having all this information just means that somebody in her family is coming up with and chasing down wild theories, which is why she can’t reveal the source but “just trust her”. It doesn’t mean that there’s anything concrete, as we can tell from the crazy things she’s claimed so far.

              Then again, she could be a troll. END OF SPECULATION ******

        • Like any good conspiracy theory the proof is right around the corner and the information comes from “someone who is on the inside” but can’t reveal themselves yet.

          If I were a fiction writer I’d say her tale about some evidence that if forthcoming regarding the cough syrup drinking is something she dreamed up after looking at the first aid kit photo for too long while spinning her imagination. In her mind, it’s filled with codeine and belonged to Trayvon as his stash box.

          But this person has SOME axe to grind and for all we know may actually have some relation to the subject Osterman. You never can tell.

          Her foolishness about the phone I don’t buy at all; nor do I find anything credible about diwAtaman’s ramblings either. On a speculative note the best I could come up with would be to guess that the phone TM had, used and was tagged into evidence was borrowed but I doubt that,too.

          Evidence item 7I darn sure wasnt George’s. He seems to have not had a “smart phone” until after Shellie got one with the pay pal money. They talk about hers in the jailhouse calls.

          • Regarding TM’s phone, it wasn’t “his” in the sense he didn’t go and sign the mobile contract himself. The phone records show that it was under his father’s name. Makes total sense. I think the whole beef originated in the question of why it took some time for the records to be made available. I think the family was only being cautious as far as what was going to be pulled off of that phone since it contained names, phone numbers and photos of family and friends. No doubt DeeDee’s picture was in there. It’s their absolute right to keep that stuff private.

            • I agree. The sanford police had thE phone and trayvons father was suspicious of their efforts. They wanted the contents of the phone and the family wanted to protect their son and his privacy.

              I think ultimately what happened is that Tracy Martin got the cell phone bill and discovered Trayvon was on the phone with Dee Dee before SPD knew it.

            • Personally, I think the whole argument is a trap. That’s how ish works! They send you down the path of searching for Trayvon Martin’s phone ownership, then they spring the it wasn’t DeeDee’s phone malarkey on you. I’ve read where pro-zim camp was actually questioning whether it was DeeDee on the phone since it wasn’t *her* phone.

              The whole exercise about “Trayvon Martin didn’t own the phone” seems to me to be a test of some a$$hole with power’s theory. doo-doo-doo-doo… LOL

              All that was outlined as the reason it was Trayvon Martin’s phone would still apply in the case of DeeDee’s phone ownership, so no worries. I also read somewhere (or was it mentioned in one of the interviews), that now DeeDee’s phone is in her own name. No verification of this, so don’t ask me for it! If it’s true, it will be sunlighted.

            • That’s not how conspiracies work, fellas.

              They were not saying it’s “not in his name”. OdessaGirls’s story specifically was that the phone found a the scene belongs to (and was lost by) a little girl and had nothing to do with the killing and TM had actually left his phone in MIami (therefore DeeDee calling can’t be true either).

              The basis for this seems to have been the heart sticker on the phone, combined with a strong desire to make the DeeDee phone calls go away.

              I don’t know what phone GZ has now. On the night he had a Blackberry.

              It is a sad step in technological advancement when a phone is smarter than its owner.

    • Sickening. If I saw what I saw, the man executed by the police was moving AWAY from the police and in no way a threat requiring all those police unloading their guns.

      Whoever has the contract for writing out and implementing the training regarding how police should respond to citizen issues needs to be charged with an international crime. I hope everyone of those officers is charged with murder!

  31. http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-friend-frank-taaffe-son-dies-car-accident-details

    Taeffe’s son has died in a car accident. It’s very unfortunate that he has lost his son. It truely saddens me… However one thing that crossed my mind is that I wonder if maybe this will put things into perspective a bit on how TMs parents must feel. He was so heartless in some of his commenting in support of GZ. Maybe he will realize how cold he sounded.

    • The loss of a child is not unfamiliar to FT; a number of years ago he lost a son. I’m not sure he can fully understand how the Fuller/Martin family feels. I believe FT understands that the loss of a loved one is difficult, but I’m not sure his mind has changed from (or ever will change from) believing TM deserved to die for (allegedly *according to GZ*) attacking GZ. He might be able to understand if the death and the aftermath was the exact same situation as TM, but I don’t wish that on him or anyone. I hope those who knew and cared for Vincent Taaffe get through this loss.

    • I doubt perspective will be achieved by Taaffe senior. He seems to be a bit of a woos that caved into whatever the Fox story line suggested. Taaffe’s son served for the U.S. and nutty people seem to find that those lives are better than others — always forgetting that we’re all human. They don’t have perspective and seem to only remember the days of when people of color weren’t even allowed to serve.

      That being said, perhaps our thoughts and wishes probably should be extended and expressed with compassion lest we delve over the line into hate and dehumanization. Nobody deserves to lose their child! Not even Taafffe.

      RIP Vincent Francis Taaffe and Justin Thomas!

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-17/news/os-two-killed-jeep-crash-volusia-20120817_1_volusia-county-crash-driver-and-passenger-florida-highway-patrol

      “The Jeep went onto the shoulder, troopers say, where it struck a warning sign and a large tree. Taaffe, a resident of DeLand, and his passenger, 31-year-old Everson, Wash., resident Justin Thomas Head, were declared dead at the scene.”

    • Frank is not having a good year.

      Both his sons were too young to die, and so was the passenger.

      And so was Trayvon.

    • All I got to say is… “ow ow” my arse! The paramedic said that’s what Zimmerman said, not Trayvon.

    • Let me clarify… Zimmerman probably told the paramedic to think there was an “ow ow” whether there was or not. I think the paramedic said Zimmerman said “ow ow” as she was picking off the dried blood of his scabbed over wounds during her cleanup.

    • Oh geez louise, I hope this doesn’t mean the crazy Odessa lady is for real!

      • See a few posts above (sorry, this new format doesn’t have numbers for me to reference!).
        DISCLAIMER: UNVERIFIED INFORMATION here…..
        TCTH had posted a few days ago on MO writing a book and supposedly pre-taping an interview/show with Dr. Phil as part of the “book tour”. This was reported from a frequent internet poster at Click Orlando (OdessaGirl) claiming to be a “friend” of GZ and Shellie. I had up until now been skeptical that she existed (that is who she claimed to be, obviously she is a person capable of typing on a keyboard). However, in her posts, she has claimed to be a relative of MO, and given enough information about herself that, if true, anybody could figure her out with a little digging. My best guess on her is she is an in-law of MO, she’s been married twice so has three different aliases. However, I’m not posting her name, especially since that side of the family has so far been hidden from the press. But if this book thing with MO is real, she’ll out herself soon enough. The last interview with GZ was a fiasco, so I doubt he’s going to be on the show. GZ is claiming to be broke so he has to keep an arms length away from this money making deal.

  32. Aussie- where did you read that GZ had a blackberry? I missed that. Does the bloody head photo phone look like a blackberry?

    • Willis I think in Singleton interview, talking about the gate CCTV being broken, he says the managing agent’s number is in his phone, the other cops have his phone…that’s where I think it was mentioned. Also one of the evidence dumps, the third I think, there’s a phone records search that comes back as a prepaid Blackberry. I just added it to my mental image, didn’t think it important enough to record the source, sorry.

      Actually there is a problem with pre-paid – there is no itemised bill showing calls made. The phone company of course would have details but they’d have to be forced to dig them out.

      • Telcoms roll over for government at the snap of a subpoena. The SAO likely have had these records since before the charges were filed. We just haven’t seen them yet. Perhaps the “depraved mind” aspect of the charge is coming from the phone records. I’ve often suspected that the “missing minutes” was around the time GZ would take to make one more phone call.

        The state charges murder 2. I doubt they are bluffing.

    • I so appreciate these links. Thank you!

      I had only seen/heard snippets before. Too many people disregard the fact that DeeDee was on the phone with her friend and she *is* a witness. Too many people recognize this as a fact and attack he witnessing.

      Crump made an abundance of credible arguments in both part 1 and 2 of these interviews. What struck me hard is that he said the family wants an arrest (achieved) and that the “grand jury” proceedings are private. Handn’t heard that before. If true, maybe that’s why Corey said nada to having a grand jury decide.

      Sunlight is important, yes! A child was killed by a vigilante. As said by Crump, if the roles had been reversed, Trayvon Martin would have been arrested on the spot and not even a consideration would have been given as to whether or not SYG came into play and no consideration would have been given to a violation of Trayvon Martin’s rights to disable or worry police on the matter of illegal arrest.

      This case exposes the presumption of guilt when a black teen is accused. It’s unAmerican to accept that bull.

      • Shucks. I’m just trying to catch up.

        I’m working on a spread sheet or word processing document in columns that aligns the elements of the entire case. It has a single second-by-second time scale. It enables us to see what each person is doing and saying when we look in their column. It lets us look sideways at any moment to see what they were all doing at that time. Very revealing.

        • Jay I strongly suggest spreadsheet. Doing it in Word tables it will never load. Also n s/s columns not being read can be collapsed.

          • Great. I’ve been looking at Google Docs (Google Drive). I could open up a spreadsheet doc there to everyone. I want Macintosh users to be able to use it. Wonder if Excel would be better?

            • You could do excel and put it on Kiwi, I guess… everyone would have to download their own though. But they could play with it then, too.
              http://kiwi6.com/#local-upload
              You can save a copy as Macintosh .csv and post that up for Mac users; it should aoutomatically open in spreadsheet for them. It won’t have any formulas so .csv would do fine for just keeping the columns in order.

  33. @WSI
    I have a DNA question for you. I know a dna sample was taken from GZ. Can that same sample be tested for drugs?

    • @ Loree, “….a dna sample was taken from GZ. Can that same sample be tested for drugs?”

      IIRC, it was a bucchal swab (q-tip inside of cheek) taken from GZ. Short answer, no. The sample would have been processed to isolate only DNA for the test. Even if they had an unprocessed swab sitting around, the sample is essentially skin cells and not ideal for testing drugs as opposed to testing blood/urine.(unless he was rubbing cocaine into his cheek….do people do that? You’re asking the wrong person about drugs, remember I didn’t even know what a lean was and couldn’t figure out why skittles and juice were such a big deal to the nuthouse people?),

      Now theoretically, certain “drugs” as in “medications” taken over time could accumulate in various tissues including the skin (depending on the drug and it’s ability to penetrate certain tissues), but I don’t think it’s realistic to test it from the bucchal swab, at least not following standard clinical tests (disclaimer: Just IMHO, I’ve never worked in a clinical lab). If the doctor had taken and stored a vial of blood/urine, it may still be possible, depending on what you’re testing for and the likelihood of degradation of that drug or its indicator over time in the stored sample.

      • Of note, you could test for alcohol on dried blood samples for up to 2-3 weeks after collection on clean filter paper, according to this……
        http://www.usdtl.com/articles/USDTL-Introduces-New-Alcohol-Biomarker-in-Dried-Blood-Spots/643.html

        And it’s actually a hot topic in medical research to test dried blood spots instead of taking vials of blood.
        http://www.dddmag.com/news/2011/06/hot-trail-dried-blood-spots

        Don’t know if forensics people are tweaking similar methods to test dried blood stains from a crime scene.

        • Read the articles, thanks again.
          But I keep thinking about how many jobs will be cut , because you don’t need a trained phlebotomist to conduct the test.

          • I think you meant to say that the phlebotomist collects the samples (other lab techs test them). I think the traditional collection of blood vials for tests will continue in hospitals as not all tests will be adapted to this technology. Also, it still requires a needle prick, which requires somebody to do it. But imagine if the police had these kits on hand, they could collect a sample as soon as they arrest somebody to most accurately show the level of drugs in their system, rather than waiting for a phlebotomist to show up. Of course, that leaves more room for the defense lawyer to cry “contamination!” if the samples are collected in the field by a cop.

      • Thanks for your response. I guess a hair sample would be the next best thing since time has past.

        • Maybe not , it would only tell us he has or hasn’t done drugs within a certain time. Not neccasarily that night.
          Thanks again

          PS I don’t know anything about any lean or whatever they call it.

    • No, you cannot test a DNA sample for drugs. Usually a DNA sample is collected by swabbing the inside of the person’s cheek with essentially a big Q-tip, in order to collect some cells that can then be used in DNA testing. Drug testing can be done by looking at blood (only for a hour or two after you have taken the drug), urine (detects drugs in the past week or more), or hair (can be very long term but depends entirely on how long your hair is).

  34. Prosecutors have subpoenas for the family practice clinic requesting more records to be given over and potentially examined in the judges quarters. O’mara has objected and a hearing is set for Friday to present both sides. Orlando Sentinal has the story.

    I think this might be about the extent of the injuries and the self-diagnosis of the nose injury but I guess we will find out more on Friday if the judge allows discussion on the details. IANAL however and the story is new, so I’d say it will be subjest to revision.

    • Would be great to get more info. I hope the records requested include a history going back as far as possible and end up showing Zimmerman has been visiting this medical facility for a while. Maybe there’s evidence of a broken nose prior to 2/26/12?

      You were right about this being a slow period. I was hoping to see more on the HOA lawsuit. Guess I’ll just have to be patient.

      • Aside from the medical records showing past nose injuries, etc, they might be afraid of delving into his psychiatric history as well. I was never sure when he mentioned at the police station “my pscyhologist” if it meant he sees one regularly or if he was referred to one specifically for the shooting. Of course since he has a script for Adderall, that has to come from an MD, i.e. neurologist or other specialist who is managing his ADD. That stuff might fall under “medical” records. All speculation on my part of course.

        • Note that this hearing will be presided over by Judge Lester. This ridiculous idea that he will be recused by the actions of the appeal to his order not to recuse himself seems to have already started to fall by the wayside. O’Mara failed to mention it on his latest blog post…. IMO he was just going through the motions on that one. It doesn’t seem to have delayed the case any…

        • There is a medical billing “specialist” at the altamone clinic that has a last name of Zimmerman. Coincidence? Like the coincidence that the homeowner on TTL whose name is also Zimmerman… Maybe.

          But the Altamonte Family Practice billing specialist (Christina Zimmerman) seems also to be the same Zimmerman arrested on drug sales charges (per links and info from the booking photos linked from the Jq NETwork). If this “Christina Zimmerman” is the same one arrested on drug distribution charges and she’s in any way related to George Zimmerman or the Julie Zimmerman that owns a home in the community with the TTL address near where George Zimmerman parked, well this investigation of the Zimmermans makes one wonder what’s really up.

  35. On March 27, 2012, Bernie de la Rionda and John Guy of the State’s Attorney’s Office talked with Cheryl Brown and her son Austin McLendon at their residence.

    Anybody know where I can listen to this interview or read a transcript of it?

  36. I’m not a specialist in law at all. Anyhow, I was wondering why the prosecution would subpoena for GZ’s medical records. My initial guess was that the prosecution is looking into possible additional details concerning the wounds he got. Then, I had some thoughts and came with the following possible points of interest:
    1) GZ anger management issues and mental stability.
    It is likely that the anger and frustration you can hear in GZ’s NEN call will be a significant part of the prosecution’s strategy. But, also, his inability to give proper directions to dispatcher Sean may be of interest medically speaking. We know that GZ was taking drugs. I’m not sure we know what was his metal state in general.
    2) GZ’s typical EZ lies (aka GZ lies). I’m talking about the ones that can be easily checked like when he told Serino that he has an AA degree while he actually failed. Obviously, if that’s something the prosecution is after then it would indicates that they are building the case that this man is a pathological liar. One thing that would be damaging to him is what he told Singleton on Feb 27th right before the lie detector test. He was kind of faking crying when telling Singleton that killing someone was devastating. This is the only time he referred to his Psychologist per my knowledge. The medical report also shows that seeing his psychologist was advised to him but did he see him? Did he even had the time as Monday Feb 27th, 2012 was kind of a busy day for him. In anycase, GZ tells Singleton that he went to his doctor (true) and his psychologist (tbd). He added that the psy will try to help him. This is when he mumbles “What are we going to do” with a depressed ton. The GZ moves on with the question “have you had to shoot anybody?”. Singleton says “no”. He replies “Good for you”. I would not be surprised if he lied and faked his sadness then.

    • @tchoupi, hey glad to read this post from you. Been kind of slow here lately. Where’d everybody go? I don’t post anywhere else so it’s been kinda lonely. Yes, beyond the “let’s see if he ever had a broken nose before”, they might be looking for anything to support what we know of his
      impulsiveness from bar arrest, fight with ex-fiance and bouncer co-worker (who said he threw a woman across the room, is he even on the witness list?). By themselves, these incidences cannot show that’s what led GZ to pull the trigger. Perhaps coupled with a psychological profile, they can however show that GZ was not the shy scaredy cat image he is trying to portray himself to be (i.e., so scared, had to “roll up the window” as TM passed; saying meekly “no man, I don’t have a problem” and then was “backing away” before being punched to the ground; not wanting to walk back through the walkway without light, helplessly screaming while being smothered/beaten).

      As his buddy Taaffe put it, he had “fed-up issues”. He clearly got out of the car and went running after TM. That action coupled with saying “These a$$holes always get away” is clearly evident of his intention to go looking for TM. If not to confront, than at the least, it shows he was not afraid. That’s the beauty of having the NEN call, its stronger evidence than what a psychologist could say.

      As far as the relevance of the medical records to his lies, I also doubt they would find “proof” of a pathological liar in the clinical sense. But here, again, is where they don’t need any more proof, as he’s already made so many apparent lies as you pointed out. They already have his butt on the line with the bond issue, and everything else is just icing on the cake when it comes to his credibility. But oh wait, he lied by omission in the bond hearing right? OK, so let’s see what are the things he “omitted” from his story. He omitted how he ended up 50 ft from the T, what he was doing with his hands during the struggle, what he was actually doing with TM after the shooting (frisking? why did he first ignore witnesses Mary/Selma?), who he called after the shooting, his conversation with cell phone Jon. I really wonder if the defense will put him on the stand, because I can’t imagine that he’d be able to explain all of these things away on cross examination. He’s not that good of a pathological liar. We’re just gonna see a lot of teeth sucking/head shaking and hear a lot of “Um, I don’t remember”.

      • “Where’d everybody go?”

        *waves* Hey, Was So Interesting! Don’t know about everyone else, but I’m still here.🙂 I think we’ve just hit such a slow point with the case that there’s not an abundance of new information to discuss. It will be very interesting to see if all/some of his medical records are released and if there is any relevant information in them.

        • Hey qetno! Whazzup? Been chillin’ here. Don’t tell NLME I’ve been in his liquor cabinet. Tried to refill the vodka bottle with listerine, but now it’s blue. Think he’ll notice?

          • Perhaps he’ll pass it over thinking it’s a stray bottle of UV Blue. Did you notice if he was stocked up on beer? That may keep his sights off that vodka.

            Secret’s safe with me, though. I certainly won’t snitch that you finished off the booze.😛

          • Actually, new plan… toss the evidence, ok? If he asks about the vodka, tell him he polished off the bottle in a drunken stupor after depleting the beer supply. If he gets suspicious, I’ll back you; it’ll further convince him that he must have drank it himself. Good thing there’s not exploding dye packs in liquor cabinets.😀

            I’ve also got the innocent, puppy dog eye look down pat — I learned from studying GZ footage, LOL.

            • @qetno, no, no exploding dye packs, but I wouldn’t put it past NLME to have surveillance cameras somewhere, and then he’ll have tchoupi watch every second of the tape. We’re screwed. OK, the rest of you guys head on over to Leatherman’s. I’m saying put. As I told unitron once, lawyers just scare me…..I wonder what’s in the wine cellar……

            • Surveillance in the liquor cabinet? I like his style, LOL. That wasn’t my mug caught on tape – it was just a really lifelike mask that appears to be an exact replicate of my face.

              Alright, silly time over. Apparently the defense team is deleting GZ’s FB because they don’t want to be (or GZ to be) associated with some of the scum on there.

            • @qetno –

              “Apparently the defense team is deleting GZ’s FB because they don’t want to be (or GZ to be) associated with some of the scum on there.”

              I think of it as a confirmation that money has run out — layoffs! If SH doesn’t back you and the NRA doesn’t back you and the Republicans won’t back you… all the while as Zimmerman-camp kisses their arses, then you’ve been exposed as a Sarah-Palin-type spinmeister.

              One’s 15-minutes of fame is finite. Let it go O’Mara and Zimmerman. Let it go…

            • @CSFC – Yup. It’s not bringing in the money anymore, and since it’s not helping GZ, but only hurting him, O’Mara wants to do away with it.

          • LOL! I’m still here, too. Just in lurk mode .

            BTW, just for fun, try filling it with Lime-e-Ritas instead. Cool “drank” imo, LOL! This is coming from an anti-beer person.

            • Babygirl, what’s your name? Let me talk to you, let me buy you a drank! (I was compelled to quote T-Pain lyrics.)🙂

              Lime-e-Ritas? Legit name? Awesome. Margarita flavored beer? – I’ll try anything once…hell, twice if I wasn’t sure the first time!

            • O/T

              Haha! @ qetno –

              T-Pain definitely sounds good. Wish artists would get back to something other than base arse lyrics, though!🙂 Surely they’ve got something more to offer than just get ‘er drunk and ride ‘er down?

              I only had lime-a-rita twice, but it was a good “drank”. I don’t know if that’s the actual name of the product. I don’I’d like to know if the company’s public. It’s made by some beer company. That I know.

              I think the taste will make somebody some money and the recipe seems to be targeted towards women’s taste since it doesn’t taste like regular ole nasty tasting beer.

            • I’ll have to try and find the product you’re talking about. This product is the only one immediately popping into my mind:

              http://www.mikeshard.com/marg.php

              I’m liking the line at the bottom of the page, “Mike’s is hard. So is prison. Don’t drive drunk.” Anyway, all of this is off topic (sorry for cluttering the blog post, NLME).

            • Thanks, CSFC. Perhaps I need to go grab some of this to test out while watching the Republican Convention — y’all know I can’t watch that fully sober. Hope you’re well – Take it easy.🙂

    • In Serino interview tape 1, Serino tries to tell GZ this may hit him hard and he should go see a psychologist about it. GZ mutters something I couldn’t make out, and Serino says, “oh SHE is??” so the impression I got was that GZ said his doctor/the one he saw is a psychologist.

      This is about the only way he’d have had time to see the doctor AND a psychologist, on that busy day. Of course he didn’t even actually see the doctor, only the PA, so……….. you know how it is with him.

      I do think the prosecution might want to see some actual medical diagnosis for the ADD ADHD and PTSD that GZ mentioned to the police. Also some idea what he was seeing a psychologist for, and indeed if he was seeing one.

      • That’s a good catch Aussie. I missed it. However, that interview was made 3 days after the shooting so, he may have had time to see a psychiatrist on the 2nd or even the 3rd day.

        Actually, as I write I realize there is a bit of confusion between psychologist & psychiatrist in those 2 interviews (Feb 27th & Feb 29th). I don’t know which one he met. The medical report recommends psychological counselling evaluation without precising. However, the fact that he precises the gender of the psy suggests that he saw one.

        I would be interesting to see what the PTSD claim is.

    • Nice indeed to be back. It feels like home. I’ve myself been slow after some surgery. I tend to react to post on various blogs though I fell bcclist is home.

      I believe that if GZ had an anger management problem that still required to be medically followed on the night of the shooting then this is relevant to the case. I’m not sure that there is anything in the already released medical report that suggests anger issues. What I see are:
      1) ADHD and/or narcolepsy (treated with adderall),
      2) insomnia and/or anxiety (treated with temazepam),
      3) Gastro esophagel reflux disease, gastric and duodenum ulceration and gastritis (omeprazole),
      4) peptic ulcers, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and gastritis (librax), and
      5) tonsillar stone.

      Quite of a list already but I don’t believe it proves anything concerning anger. What it suggests are mouth, stomach, anxiety, sleep & attention issues.

      Directly related to the case, the medical report shows a possible broken nose, some swelling, some black eyes and to small lacerations to the back of his head.

      This is why I’m really puzzled as of why the prosecution is after his medical record.

      Thanks guys for your inputs

      • tchoupi – I hope you have a smooth and speedy recovery from your surgery! It’s good to see your posts again. This blog is definitely a second home of sorts.🙂

        As for the medical records, I believe they have the documents only from his visit at the family practice the next day. I think the prosecution likely wants records pre and post 2/26 that may shed light on his psychological state. They’d probably like to know what medications he was taking and in what doses prior to the shooting and they may like to know if any meds were adjusted after. In addition, I’m sure they want to know if he’s ever had any injury, surgery, etc. on his nose prior to that night. Personally, I think there is something in the medical records O’Mara doesn’t want people to know about that goes beyond basic concerns of privacy; it is O’Mara’s statement about releasing what he believes relevant voluntarily that tips me off. He doesn’t want the prosecution looking at them because he knows they will likely spot something in them.

      • @tchoupi, speedy recovery to you, indeed! I remember you said in response to whonoze’s satire above “you’ve opened up all my scares (I’m on post-surgery recovery)” . I thought that was a metaphor for him “scaring” you so badly, your heart stopped and you had to have heart surgery. I’m just dense I guess. Take care.

      • Unless GZ authorizes his medical records to be released, HIPPA mandates strict confidentiality . The judge won’t issue a subpoena w/o a showing of direct causal link between his actions on 2/26 & his past medical history. A Corey would know how to word it as she is expert prosecutor.

        He has quite alot of issues for his age —insomnia, anxiety, and IBS. The Librax contains Librium, which is in the anti anxiety class plus the Temazepam also in anti anxiety class & coupled with his ADHD.but, paradoxically, his demeanor indicates NO anxiety whatsoever ; whereas the normal person, even a police officer, displays some degree of emotion after killing someone.

        He has a medical history of extreme anxiety needing multiple prescriptions yet he is remarkably calm following a situation where most people would be a basket case.

    • The medical records they are seeking are from a family practice clinic, yes? It is unlikely that such a practice would deal with psych issues. The docs there would be General Practitioners / Internists. They might prescribe the Temazepam for insomnia, but I doubt it. GPs don’t like to prescribe benzos, and they usually go with Ambien or Sonata for sleep. As I’ve noted before, scrips for benzos and Adderall are as common as leaves on the trees, and nothing can be inferred from them… it would be more revealing if we knew the dosages, but not much.

      While a family practice doc wouldn’t have any detailed notes on pysch issues, they would have some general documentation of his conditions, even the ones they themselves do not treat, and records or referrals and so on. So his general medical history might have enough info to show he falsified his application for a concealed carry permit.

      I have no idea what, if any, legal implications this might have. Does the prosecution really need more evidence GZ is a BS artist? Perhaps there are extra penalties for shooting someone while using a fraudulently obtained permit??

      • great point! not sure about self defense in FL, but at least for SYG, proponent’s acts must be “lawful” so that’s how it comes into play- if gun was carried/obtained unlawfully, that may change which arguments GZ can advance or rely upon. so confusing!

      • Most specialists send records to your G.P. as a courtesy measure, because the person coordinating a patient’s health care needs to know everything. Similarly, when I’ve been in the hospital, because I list my G.P. on the paperwork, she has access to the records. Nowadays, it’s not paper copies, either. The hospital has electronic records that the G.P. can access, and I know that almost all prescriptions are actually sent to the pharmacy electronically through a special system.

  37. Get well soon, tchoupi. I see where you’ve been hiding out🙂 Your imgur has over 97,000 views, that is incredible. I just posted it over there again.

    Girls we’ve been hanging at Leatherman’s http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com where he puts a new post every 2 days to discuss specific legal aspects of the case.

    • Thanks for the tip, aussie! I’ll check Leatherman’s.

      I swear I’m not stepping out on you, NLME! It was only the one time! It didn’t even go very far!😛 Yes, I’m ridiculous.

    • I have been away trolling then engaging many many morons on OS my bad. I I have a few thoughts which may have been covered, if so mucho appreciation to your enlightenment. Just when I thought Serino was a pig …then ouch those 2-29-12 audio hmmm. But I digress ..with the wild witnesses in their various 911 calls and some ever-changing statements….I feel this yucky feeling that maybe it was not Serino and co-horts that influenced their re-directed recollections. Seeing Osterman at the scene of re-enactment and knowing anyone who may be assisting GZ must be a piece of shit as well….here is my question in all the confusion and horror of this murder could Osterman have been making the rounds in this gated community maybe flashing maybe not an old sheriffs badge in an effort to sway opinion GZ’s way? He is a scary looking guy. All along the re-enactment trail I see GZ directing the cops to stop at various locations in his claim and notice at least two of these locales seem to have doggie poop bags planted like a point of reference on the grass near the curb. I may be mentally disturbed but it struck me. Then Osterman and silver truck looking very official in the area. Just thought I needed to get that off my chest. Any ideas are appreciated

    • It gets tiresome at Leaherman’s, where most of the regulars don’t know the evidence very well, (and some don’t care), and a lot of wacky conspiracy theories get floated. I always give a little inner whoop of joy when I see a post there from tchoupi or aussie, because I know it will be worth reading.

      It’s an OK place to visit, but NLME’s living room is where we ‘live.’

      • Thanks, whonoze. They ARE a bit weak on the evidence. Some of them seem to be fairly recent arrivals, too. But they are asking the right questions, they are asking for details of evidence. So it is worthwhile helping them out and steering them in the right direction.

        • Just wanted to give a shout out/thanks to you and whonoze along with anyone else who has corrected me, requested follow-up info, provided supporting info, answered a question for me, etc. It’s great to be around sane and smart/intelligent people. Thanks, everyone!

          • @qetno, yes this room is full of smart/inteligent people…but sanity is relative, it takes a bit of neurosis to do what we’re doing here, but it’s a good kind of crazy. BTW, thanks for directing me to W1 and W2, I still need to review some of the evidence I seemed to have missed.

    • Thanks everybody for your kind words. I’m doing better now.
      I’ve been posting a bit on Leatherman too. I’m mostly reacting to posts there. I have to say that there are many bloggers with a level of knowledge of this case that is not matching their passion. So, in the end, I’m not very involved.
      I’ve posted on TalkLeft too. That one is more interesting as they have a different view of the world. It is good to get challenged a bit. But, you get tired too.
      I believe, bcclist as a good team with enough diversity to grow.
      What we really lake is new evidence now.

  38. A quick question…

    Does anybody know who’s that witness Serino is talking about in part 1 of the Feb 29th interview?
    Aussie was pointing at that interview for a different matter so I listened to it again.
    At about 14:00 Serino says “I’ve got an anonymous phone call […] they say something a little bit different. More along the line – you’re trying to detain him. More along the line – there was arguing back and forth.”.

    Is that real or is it a trap Serino was setting up?

    Also, have you noticed how GZ laugh down these kind of claims in this interview. He is 100% sure he is going to get away.

    • Regarding witness. Not only Serino says it, Omara questions the state about it at the second bond hearing. Listen forward from 50:11.

      Also note the state did not answer. O’mara needs to check his discovery. He couldn’t keep the witness numbers with the correct statements.

        • Witness 31? I hope someone saw it all. I still remember a strange comment by A. Corey where she was speaking with someone and said something along the lines of one person seeing it all. I hope this is true.

          • Of all the witnesses that we know about who reported hearing or seeing something, were they all 911 callers or part of the household of the 911 callers? Reason I ask is I wonder if the state was compelled only to release statements from people who made 911 calls. With so many witnesses calling 911 that night, odds are that there are others who must have seen something but NOT called that night, especially if they were scared to death of actually haven seen it go down.

            • I think most were 911 callers or people within homes of the 911 callers, but there were some witnesses who did not call 911, and their statements were released. For example, the Bahadoor sisters’ did not come forward until the HOA meeting after the shooting; neither called 911, but their statements have been released. Also, Jon (W13) and his wife (I always forget her number, sorry.) had their statements released, too. They didn’t call 911, either. DeeDee’s statements were also released.

              I’m not sure how the whole discovery process works, honestly.

            • Thanks I’ll have to go read up on the witnesses again. I was unaware of the sisters you mentioned.

            • The way discovery works is that you pretty much have to turn over every bit of evidence you have found to the other side. This allows them to fine tune their case. There are no Perry Mason-type surprises.

            • @Christie, hypothetically speaking, if a witness calls in anonymously and tells what they saw, the cops would have a recorded message (much like Witness #9’s first call). Even if he/she talks to authorities but has not signed a witness statement or given authorization for them to use the information, is that called “withholding a statement” as mentioned by Serino? In that case, the state wouldn’t have to release any information on it until the witness agrees to come forward, correct?

            • Discovery involves each side sending the other a formal legal discovery document that declares what information they want turned over. The wording on these is as broad as possible so as to net the most info. Basically, you expect that your side will have to turn over everything that is “reasonably calculated to lead to admissible evidence” — i.e., it MIGHT be admissible, because it appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

              Documents that fall under client-attorney privilege and attorney work-product are pretty much always non-discoverable.

              Both sides are always expected to cough up the following in the first two weeks:

              (1) The name and, if known, the address and telephone number of each individual likely to have discoverable information, and the subject of that information, that might be used in court. This includes witnesses, experts on topics that may be brought in to testify (such as a ballistics expert, or a medical expert), people who have been or will be deposed. Any experts who may be called usually have to have their credentials included, disclosure of payments made to the expert, and related info.

              (2) A copy (or sometimes an index) of all ll documents, electronic data, and tangible objects that the disclosing party has, that might be used in court.

              After that, each side sends discovery documents, for which the respondent generally has a month to disclose or to object formally to disclosure.

            • The sisters are W1 & W2. I thought I added their numbers in my post – Sorry about that, WSI!

    • During the interview, Serino said the witness was “holding their statement” for now, and desired anonimity (sp?)- so it’s not clear that he knows who the witness is, right? He may have thrown that out there to shake up GZ’s “scripted” story.
      Speedy recovery Tchoupi! (dating myself- that was Mr. Rogers! :))

    • Sounded to me at the time it was a bluff, same as the “TM might have video on his phone about this” was a bluff. Except there were witnesses about arguing, not so much about “detaining”.

      I do believe W18 saw more than she’s been saying. She attended her interviews with a lawyer. She said even on the 911 call “I don’t want to be a witness” which you don’t say unless you ARE one.

  39. Does anyone remember when Tracy Martin said that a detective said that Trayvon had walked up to gz truck and ask him why was he following him and gz said he wasn’t following Trayvon and rolled up his window? Where did the detective get that detail from? I don’t remeber gz ever mentioning that. However its strange how that detail is similiar to the account DeeDee gave when she said Trayvon asked, why are you following me for?

    • The story came from Tracy Martin. He said that is what the police had told him about what happened. We don’t know which police, most likely Serino as he was the one dealing with him. . It may have been a prettying-up of the “Yo you got a problem homie/mofo” conversation. Possible conflated with the “circled my truck” story. It certainly didn’t happen at the car. Neither GZ nor any of his surrogates ever mentioned something like this.

  40. It just came to me why (IMHO) GZ told operator Sean, “The keys are in the ignition.” I had thought this was simply a means of identifying the truck, as in “They’ll see my truck, it’s the one with the keys in the ignition.” But it’s more likely he does not want the arriving officer to be alarmed, as in “They’ll see my truck. The keys are in the ignition, but it’s OK, I left them there.”

    Again the significance of this whole statement about the truck is that GZ does not expect to be there when the officer arrives. Which means he is farther away from the truck than he says he is in his statements. I think this explains his sudden change to “can you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at” as well. He has just agreed to meet the officer at the mailboxes, and then through the haze of whatever was confusing him that night (making him forget the street, the address system, making him unable to describe the location of the truck intelligibly) it finally dawns on him that he’s not going to be able to get back to the mailboxes before the officer gets there.

    So i don’t think he got a clue to Trayvon’s whereabouts at this point. It’s actually too early in the timeline. But this could be the point where he decides to keep looking. He had agreed to go meet the police at the mailboxes, which basically means giving up. If GZ’s gone down RVC, he’s had a view of the back gate, and he’s pretty sure the goon is still inside the gates. But if he goes back to the mailboxes, the ‘suspect’ will be out the gate and into the wind.

    So his first thought is, ‘can’t get back there in time, gotta cancel that.’ And his second thought then becomes, ‘Ok, I’m here. I might as well keep looking.” This is why he perks up. Not because he finds Trayvon: he would have trumpeted that triumph to Sean. But just because the game is not over. He still has a chance to get THIS asshole before he gets away.

    • I have to disagree with you Whonoze. It might be just my personal interpretation of GZ’s NEN call but there is little doubt in my mind that there was something more than just realizing that he was too far to get back to his truck to explain his sudden switch.
      The last 90sec of the NEN call shows GZ sinking in frustration as he is giving it up. Then at the very end, he sounds excited. He even interrupts Sean is a middle of a sentence which e never did before. He had accidental cross talks with Sean but he never stopped him like he did at the end.
      To me, it suggests that something came up that renewed his energy and hope.

  41. I’ve revised my deduced associations of 911 callers with the reported call start times a little bit. Please see the entry at the whonoze blog: http://tinyurl.com/c4f9nhp

    My original deductions now seem to be taken as established fact, and listed regularly in Martin/Zimmerman posts without attribution or qualification. That’s not proper. They were merely educated guesses, generally pretty close, but with a margin for error. The new deductions are still just that: probable, not definitive.

    tchoupi especially seems to use the call times in some of his analyses.

    @ tchoupi: I don’t know how much the margin of error might matter to your hypotheses, if at all, but I’d feel better if you used probablistic language and/or a bracket of possible times. E,g. not ‘John W6 called 911 at 7:18:00’, but ‘John W6 seems to have called 911 at 7:17:54 or 7:18:00’. Or even ‘JohnW6 called 911 no earlier than 7:17:54’ which seems to me solid enough for an unqualified verb, since the object leaves some wiggle room open.

    • Whonoze,

      I got the 911 connecting times from an article published in March:

      http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Lawyer-Trayvon-Martin-s-girlfriend-heard-altercation/-/1637132/9613958/-/57edqqz/-/index.html

      The interesting part is that paragraph: “Records show Zimmerman’s first call to authorities was at 7:09:34 p.m., followed by seven witness calls at 7:16:11, 7:16:41, 7:17:06, 7:17:15, 7:17:54, 7:18:00 and 7:19:04.”
      .
      It doesn’t tell who are the callers but knowing them it was easy to find out.
      You may want to check my conclusions.

      Thanks

        • I have put the 911 connection time in the witness summary right below the witness map. I have also recently added a time line of events right below the witness summary. That chart shows at what time JonW13 & Ofc T. Smith arrived.

          I’ve read your post and have to say that you walked exactly on the same foot prints I walked on. I also used Jayne as the witness to time everything.

          There is one difference though. I put Mary’s before Johnathan’s. I’m not sure it matters much though. Indeed, the two calls are split by 6sec only.
          Mary tells about someone with flashlight 28sec in her call. JohnW6 does the same 58sec in his call but he seems to be just rediscovering the scene. He just noticed TM lying on the ground and got his “holly shit” moment.

          Have a look to this http://i.imgur.com/LLdUYh.png and tell me if it makes sense.

          • I originally had Mary before JohnW6. But I switched them because Mary logically would be later due to her attempt to communicate with GZ, and I wanted to give JohnW6 the benefit of the doubt. Since, basically, I’m thinking he’s fibbing about calling 911 directly, and there was quite a gap of time from when he saw the ‘fight’ to when he called, i want to be able to say, “Even at the earliest his call could have come in, look how long he waited!!”

            To carry this from JohnW6 to GZ himself: A lot of folks, especially over at Leatherman’s, always want to impute the worst possible motives behind any of GZ’s actions. I think that’s because the case has become symbolic politics for them, and they have projected all that is wrong with the world onto GZ, hoping that if he gets convicted that will be a sign of some shift in karma. So they make GZ out to be some kind of Central Florida Dr. Moriarty. But he’s no evil genius — he was a weak student at a low status Juco. The idea that he spots Trayvon during the NEN call and doesn’t say anything is just too clever by half. But it won’t change the big picture, and GZ’s not an evil genius.

            Yes he’s frustrated, and then he gets enthused again, but nothing external has to happen here. He has agreed to back to the mailboxes, which means ‘game over.’ Then all he has to do is realize that he doesn’t have to do that, maybe thinking about the keys and how far down RVC he is, and bingo, ‘I can just have them call me! I don’t have to give up. I haven’t lost! I can keep looking!” That’s enough.

            See, if you give GZ the benefit of the doubt, not in terms of believing anything he says, but just imagining his motives as ‘find the goon so the cops can catch him (thanks to ME ME ME ME)!’ he STILL comes out as depraved murderer who should spend the rest of his life in prison. i don’t think hyperbole does any good here, and has the potential of harm actually as it might hurt the credibility of the case against him. “Go man go, but not like a yoyo schoolboy. Just play it cool boy. Real cool.”
            See

            • I rather agree with this, whonoze.

              I think he’d played the victory scenario in his head so many times, he fell for it himself. So naturally the goon suspect asshole was going to co-operate, wait around quietly for the police, make admissions in response to questioning etc etc.

              He just didn’t have a Plan B.

              His one moment of clear-headed sanity was, I believe, when he realised how his world would fall apart if the suspect lived to become a complainant. Then Tape Five started playing, “hero survives horrific injuries while being forced to shoot in self-defence” .

              Of COURSE his vitals were normal 10 minutes later. It wasn’t a real person. It was just like a video game (wormholes, teleports and all) just down to the last life of the player.

            • Aussie, could you help me find where it was reported that GZ’s vital were normal 10min after the gunshot? This is an information I missed apparently. Thanks

            • Cool As A Cucumber

              When an EMT checked Zimmerman in the patrol vehicle at 7:41 pm his pulse, blood pressure, and all of his vital signs were normal. Here is his report:

              EMT Report – (found on the Leatherman blog)
              Assessment 1941 [7:41 pm]

              Patient Conscious
              Breathing Quality Adult Normal 12-20 [which is normal, not panting or out of breath]

              No External Hemorrhage noted; Mucuous Membrane Normal

              Central Body Color Normal

              Extremities Normal

              Within Normal Limits (Airway, Breathing Quality, Accessory Muscle Use, Chest Rise, Radial Pulse, Skin Temp, Skin Moisture [not sweating], Skin Turgor [not showing signs of dehydration], Cap Refill [blood circulation is normal], Pupil Size and Reaction.

              [Or as Crane Station, a former RN says, He’s cool as a cucumber, which seems unusual for a person who minutes earlier killed someone and is now under arrest while sitting in the rear seat of a police vehicle with his hands handcuffed behind his back ]

              Cause of Injury [to Zimmerman]: Struck by blunt/thrown object. (9640) [Emphasis supplied]

              Mechanism of Injury: Blunt

              Patient says he was assaulted and his head was struck on the pavement.

              Pt’s GCS = 15 [Glascow Coma Scale, which is a level of consciousness scale and 15 is normal] and he is warm and dry with normal skin color. Pt has abrasions to his forehead + bleeding/tenderness to his nose and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding. Pt also denies LOC [loss of consciousness], neck/back pain, and he has + PMS [pulse motor sensory function] X 4 [in all extremeties] with – paresthesia [no tingling]

              [That means his pulse, motor, and sensory functions were all okay and functioning normally]

            • The above came from F.Leatherman’s blog titled “Why did Treyvon Martin have to die?’
              I think their latest speculation at the Frederick Leatherman blog as to whether George sat on Treyvon to not only frisk him, but also to make sure every speck of life had drained out of him through pressure asphixiation is absolutely on point.
              If Treyvon was conscious for anywhere from 20 seconds to 2 minutes, as has been circulating recently from 2 doctors, then sitting on him was (more) murder.

              George discouraged a call to 911 for immediate medical assistance for Treyvon by Wit. Jon when he told him he had already called 911. George told the lady asking if she could help to: “call the police,” (after her third attempt to get him to speak) not 911, and not for medical assistance or an ambulence. George consciously withheld every bit of help he could; but not before contributing to an excrutiating death by turning Treyvon onto his stomach and sitting on him while (evidently) pressing on his neck and back.

              This is depraved indifference. This alone should put this man away for life.

      • @ everyone, FYI, if you encounter the password page on Whonoze’s link again, you don’t need to enter one. Just click on the little link at the bottom that says “back to whonoze” and it’ll take you there.

        • @marilyn
          That is some great work you’ve done! Thanks soooo much.
          I’m guessing you’re in the medical field, right?

    • A crocodile somewhere is crying tears while a tiny violin plays a really sad song just for George.

    • I think we have the answer to what the prosecution is after concerning GZ’s medical records:

      “But de la Rionda, in paperwork filed today, said that what O’Mara released wasn’t enough. The state needs to know, he wrote, if there are X-rays, photos or other doctor’s office records that document Zimmerman’s injuries.

      It also needs to know if Zimmerman was treated earlier for nose and head injuries and if he got follow-up care, de la Rionda wrote.

      And the records, he wrote, are not an invasion of Zimmerman’s privacy because they are exempt from public disclosure and thus, won’t be released to the media.”

      BdlR is after GZ’s [non existing] wounds.

      Thanks Aussie

  42. Looks like the state has filed an answer / rebuttal to the motion appealing the non-recusal o the judge. The document was filed today at the 5pm Deadline and is not been scanned/ made public yet.

  43. This article presented a hypothetical “self-defense” case based on the GZ/TM shooting to lawyers/judges around the world and asked what would be the likely charges and outcome would be. If you don’t want to read the whole thing, scroll down to the very bottom to read the “self-defense” scenario, basically utilizing GZ’s version that the victim came back and punched the shooter to the ground and bangs his head. Even with that, GZ would have been charged anywhere else in the world from the equivalent of manslaughter to murder 2 (no one said he would get off on a SYG type of law.). GZ shouldn’t decry being unfairly treated by the system. In China, there’s no bond and a “not guilty” verdict is extremely rare once charged. A lawyer’s job is basically to plead down the penalties.

    http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/22/12437185-trayvon-martin-case-how-courts-in-other-countries-might-deal-with-a-similar-killing

    • I found it interesting.
      From what I understand, maybe beside the Republic of SA, GZ would have been in trouble from day one.

      I’m not a specialist but I think in France GZ would have been charged with murder and would have had to prove that he acted in self-defense.

  44. Well, we know what the medical subpoena is about now.
    http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/State%27s%20Response.pdf

    They’re just trying to get a more detailed report of GZ’s visit to the Altamonte clinic on 2/27, including photos, x-rays, CT scans, MRI… “The State wants to make sure that no other records exist.” other than the 4 page report the clinic already provided. The subpoena is “to make sure [the State] has complete records for Defendant’s treatment on 2/27/2012, including whether there was or wasn’t any possible follow up treatment; and to find out if there were any prior reports of injuries to Defendant’s head or nose.”

    So, nothing about GZ’s mental health issues or history. Just his condition the morning after he was ‘almost beaten to death.’ So why would Corey file this subpoena, and why would O’Mara fight it? We don’t know if GZ was regularly seen at the Altamonte clinic. if he saw a PA on the 27th, my guess would be ‘no.’ So they probably don’t have records for him that would show treatments of prior head or nose injuries. GZ has already admitted he didn’t follow up with an ENT, and he probably didn’t follow up with a neurologist about his head bashing either.

    But what if GZ is (shocked, SHOCKED!) lying? What if he DID go see an ENT, and the ENT took x-rays and came to the conclusion that any fracture in GZ’s nose was an old injury. Or what if he did go to a head doctor, who gave him a CT scan and or MRI that showed no sign of injury whatsoever?

    It’s hard to imagine, with all the things MO’M has to do, that he would take the time to fight this subpoena just to preserve the privacy of whatever GZ told a PA on a single visit to a walk in clinic. Logic suggests that someone must have SOMETHING damaging to the defense, either the clinic itself or someone their records would point to. Unless the 4 page report from the clinic is NOT in fact complete, why would O’Mara care, and how could he claim GZ’s orivacy would be compromised?

    Even if the subpoena goes forward, medical records aren’t subject to disclosure, so we won’t know what they do or don’t find…

    • @whonoze, “Even if the subpoena goes forward, medical records aren’t subject to disclosure, so we won’t know what they do or don’t find…”

      Except that we weren’t supposed to see GZ’s transcripts either….they’re anticipating another “whoops, how’d that get in the email?” incident.

    • I totally am still betting that GZ slipped on the wet pavement as he gallumphed after Trayvon and cracked the back of his own head on the fall, and that this pissed him off.

      I’ve had my nose broken playing softball (catcher) and basketball (guard) and there was MUCH more blood and swelling. I’m frankly unwilling to believe that GZ has a confirmed diagnosis of broken nose. In a grappling situation, he may have gotten a fist or elbow to the nose, but he wasn’t hit hard if so.

      • Agree that angular pressure during scuffling could lead to a slip. GZ’s boots look like non-slip work shoes. Pavement in Florida doesn’t get ice on it. Seems more likely he slipped on wet grass. There are also those rectangular utility covers in that area of the lawn that he could have hit his own head on. In my area we have these covers for electric and water that I know of.

        A big part of GZ’s self-defense fantasy was that he shimmied from concrete (sidewalk?) to grass. John(W6) contradicts this saying the two shifted away from him which would be from grass to the concrete. Jayne(W18) talks mostly about the grassy area.

    • If looking for previous reports of injury to the nose is the state’s stated reason for requesting records via a subpoena that’s all well and fine but it’s still a fishing expedition that could uncover other records the state might then claim are relevant to the case I think. And whatever they find if the subpoena is served and answered will be seen by he judge as well. IANAL but could this just be a backdoor tactic to introduce the issue of prescription drug use and side effects, etc with the excuse of merely looking at the nose injuries, etc? Seems like the prosecution is giving the judge the “right” answer but seeking more than just info on the nose and other physical injuries reported on 2/27. They want past records, too the way I read this.

      • Actually, the prosecution can specifically ask that any records including maxillofacial, nasal, or head injuries be produced, they can ask for medication records, they can ask for records of past injuries from fighting or work-related injuries, they can ask for mental health records (this last is subject to much greater scrutiny and secrecy due to privacy laws). All of these things fall into that category of being reasonably likely to produce admissible evidence.

        I seem to recall that somewhere the defense has asked to release the full medical records to the judge and then have the judge rule on how much of it is admissible, which seems reasonable to ME.
        And I wonder why the prosecution hasn’t requested a series of face and head X-Rays of Zimmerman? Because broken bones heal, but the breaks leave marks on the bones.

        • That make sense to me. Thanks

          More generally, there is enough statements GZ put in the air that are not confirmed by anything. He should at least be able to show the gravity of the attack he claims he’s been the victim of.

      • @willisnewton
        Says state looking for drugs GZ takes as relevant to his emotional state but is using right words.

        I agree..Corey is looking to place into evidence his medications, side effects, and dx. They already know he didn’t go for an X-ray or scan. Remember, Det.ective Singleton asked him if he had gotton an xray and he said no. Then he spokeof his lousy insurance w/ a 5k deductible. But he would have to be a regular patient to get ongoing scripts.

        Mom says he’s fighting it on principle, I.e., constitutional rights but IMHO I think it’s just running up his bill so when GZ is finally declared indigent, he will recoup more.

    • I wouldn’t be surprised. Didn’t her brother and/or father do time? Ok, ok…let’s not too gossipy. I don’t condone drinking and driving, but let’s not condemn people for it, either.

      • “I don’t condone drinking and driving, but let’s not condemn people for it, either.”

        No, they should be condemned. One of my former students, sweetest kid you’d ever meet, was killed by a drunk driver who was driving with a suspended license for previous DUI offenses. I was fourth in line at a stoplight one night; the light turned green, the first car pulled slowly into the intersection, and a pickup truck ran the light at full speed smashing the car. I saw this happen. Two drunken guys got out of the truck. One the cops determined they had enough witnesses w/o me, they waved me on (i wasn’t a local resident). This was 15-20 minutes after the impact. They were still trying to extract the driver with the jaws of life, but I have no idea whether she survived. I was too scared to check. My former student is as dead as Trayvon, and just as unjustly so. His family is just as devastated. I think GZ was under the influence on 2/26, and not just his benzo, because that just makes you tired and relaxed. Alcohol makes people aggressive and reckless.

        If there’s any chance you’ll pick up a deadly weapon after — be it a Kel-Tec or just the keys to a Ridgeline — you don’t take the drink. Hell, if GZ had gone on to Target, he might have run a red light on Rinehart and murdered some other innocent soul…

        • All I meant was let’s not start calling her the evil scum of the earth, etc. before we know the full story. I’m in full support of her and any other asshole who gets drunk and does something dangerous/stupid to be punished to the fullest extent under the law. I just reread back that sentence you quoted and wow did I phrase that really, really, terribly. I apologize.

    • @QETNO, No condemnation here. Just reporting what’s on the news.

      Shellie’s mother took pain pills and was seen swerving around on the road. Other drivers called 911. No mention of alcohol involved. The arrest took place on August 8th. Just interesting that the number of people around GZ getting mugshots (Forgive me, I can’t help this comment…..she looks quite happy in her mugshot. I guess she thought it’s kinda like taking your driver license picture. OK, that’s being gossipy.)

      http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/shellie-zimmerman-mother-dui-20120823,0,7525173.story

      http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-s-mother-in-law-charged-with-DUI/-/1637132/16249426/-/10bhqugz/-/index.html

      • I wasn’t suggesting your intent was to gossip or condemn, and I apologize if it seemed like that was what I meant. I just meant it as a note to everyone…including myself, lol.

        I’m glad no one was hurt and that the people blocked her from leaving. Thanks for providing the additional info + links! Hope you’re having a good day/night; what did you find in NLME’s wine cellar, btw?😉

  45. Redaction Blues

    As I work with the police calls I notice two different things going on when personal information was removed.
    1) the recording goes silent for a bit. This does not affect the timing of what remains.
    2) the recording abruptly jumps over to the next part. This clips time.

    I imagine several people with various methods and skill levels being involved in the editing of what we are given. Some of this work is quite sloppy. I think both 1 and 2 were done on some cuts. At any rate the times are off a little because of #2. JayneW18 tells CNN that she was already on the phone with police when the shot went off. HUH? I she mistaken, or are JenniferW11’s and W3’s redacted calls that far off on the gunshot? That would be off more than 10 seconds for the gunshot to be after 7:17:06 instead of at 7:16:56 as we have been thinking. This is just one example.

    For most of the sequencing and meanings (after all, data means little without interpretation) this timing aggravation is trivial. Need the police calls without redaction eventually.

    Think of this for all seven callers, though:
    – what is the reason given for calling the police
    – when did they decide to call
    – when did they probably dial; based on getting to the phone, land line, speed dial
    – at what point did they connect and what was the first thing said

    In general, I work backwards from the connect time. I wonder what the average time is from dial to connection to 911, maybe in Florida, or in Sanford. 10 seconds? 15?
    When the person decides to call how long in general would it take before they dial?
    And knowing the reason makes me check their composite timeline to see when that condition was in place.

    Good to hear from you all again. To catch a murderer.

    • @Jay, good points. I had always wondered about how much we were missing with the redaction. I don’t know if you’ve gone over W20’s (Jeremy) recorded statements yet, but I wanted your thoughts on this. He at first describes scuffling or whatever in the bushes, but then later in the same interview says no it was scuffling in the grass. First of all, with the TV on and it raining, I’m wondering how is it that he could hear scuffling in the grass (isn’t dry grass “louder” than wet grass?). Assuming that scuffling didn’t just mean the sound of TM/GZ grunting and that he was not just saying “in the grass” as a way of telling the distance (as in, it’s closer to his house in the grass as opposed to being farther way on the sidewalk), then is it possible those sounds are of the bushes or the tree? GZ initially said that TM jumped out of the bushes, but the next day had to position himself up at the top of the T where there were no bushes just to jive with his story of walking back to the truck. GZ is full of malarky, and I don’t believe TM jumped out of the bushes, but he could have been hiding there from GZ. Just a thought.

      • I think you’re right about just a way of telling distance. They’d “hear” the distance, and also it means grass as opposed to concrete, as the hard surface they WOULD be able to hear. IN this context “bushes” would mean “even closer” ie where the hedges are up close to the buildings.

        HAHA I like the tree making a noise…but it would not have been a scuffle, at most GZ ran into it the one single time.

        Jeremy was watching from upstairs, wasn’t he? at least part of the time? so he’d even see where the action was. And possible make assumptions about the slightly earlier bits he’d only heard but not yet saw.

        • @aussie, actually I was mistaken with the tree making a noise because I was looking at the evidence photos which were taken much later when there were leaves on the trees so I thought it would be possible to hear a rustling tree. However, the evidence photos from that night showed bare trees.

        • Jeremy and Jennifer were downstairs watching TV when it all started.
          They went upstairs to hide until police arrives.

      • I’ve listened to Jeremy but have not typed his testimony in yet. You know, my brain is not fresh enough to keep all this stuff coordinated. I’m developing a system as I go. I transcribe then make a composite for each witness that has all they said. I estimate the times of everything they refer to and then put everything in time order. I have composites mostly done for witnesses 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. It’s going to take another month before I finish. Witness 10 is Chad (Brandy Green’s son).

        Finally all witnesses can be related by the ticking clock to see the mosaic of the evening that they create.

        The argument in the bushes/hedge will be understood by comparing Jeremy with witnesses 8, 11, 18, (and w5 only through her speculation about the earlier fight, which she may have gotten through talking with neighbors). I honestly don’t know how Trayvon got so far north. I guess it’s possible this started north of Jeremy’s house. There is a low metal sign there that could have created that gouge in the back of GZ’s head. And all those little scratches on his face including the nose could have been made by bushes. But, the sidewalk “T” as a starting point is also north of his house. Just not directly north of it.

        It was a 10 second argument of three back and forths “Hey, hey, hey”. I think it started around 7:15:00. DeeDee gives us the words for the argument. This is what they heard over their TV. They muted and then listened to the 20 second scuffle across their back yard moving south. They were still downstairs. If Jeremy and Jennifer, one or the other, didn’t look out at the scuffle, or what followed, then fat dogs don’t fart. They must have seen something. Everybody else did.

        • @Jay, regarding the longer cut on the back of GZ’s head. Yeah, in looking at it carefully, to me, it looks like a crescent shape rather than a straight up and down cut. It would seem something with a sharp edge came in contact with the curvature on his head at an angle to make that shape (I tested this out with some playdoh). So the sign is consistent. In any case, I don’t know what would be on the ground that could make that type to cut if his head were just being banged straight up and down as he claimed.

          • The cut on the back of GZs head may have been caused by TM’s cell phone. I seem to recall it was NOT tested for fingerprints because (presumably) the DNA test was more important, but we’ve not seen results on that yet. Of course hitting someone with your phone sounds a lot more like a defensive act than an offensive one to me.

            As for “why was TM so far north?” I’m not convinced he truly was ever north of the tan bag, 30 feet south of the T. There’s no physical evidence to show it, only residents who claim to have heard it.

            If I were to speculate that he was farther north however there are a few reasons he may have been up there, one of which would be that he rounded the corner running away from GZs car, then slowed/ stopped to talk to dee dee somewhere near the first two backyards. GZ jogged to the T but didn’t see TM who was basically behind him at that point, wearing dark top and Khaki trousers, a good camouflage against the beige building. I don’t think TM had to hide, he just had to stay still.

            Then after GZ looked down the T, distracted by his flashlight and conversation w dispatch, he seems to have continued on – he claims towards RVC, which I think is likely although he lies about how why and when he did so.

            Upon his EVENTUAL return if he were coming west with a working key chain flashlight he would have a much better chance of spotting TM with his reflective shoes (see yellow tarp photos) especially if he was moving. He may have decided to “double back” towards TTL to put the buildings between him and his pursuer. Or he may have waked up towards the T to look east to see if GZ was gone. Many things are possible. What can be proven in court is that GZ ran after him, found him and shot him. And he’s lied about how he came to do so.

            We may never know what happened and I’m willing to accept that, because we know so well that GZ lied to investigators about the events leading up to the physical struggle.

            • @willisnewton, I completely agree with the scenario that TM just rounded the corner and stopped before the 2nd house. “Hiding in the bushes” to me does not mean that TM crouched behind 3-foot hedges, just standing behind a wooden divider between the houses, NEXT to the bushes, trying to stay out of sight. If you’re running away from somebody and just rounded a corner, do you 1) spend another 30 sec running straight down a long walkway so your pursuer can see you going in your house? or 2) slip out of sight for a minute to let the pursuer pass on by? #2 is more logical.

              Nope, we may never know what happened, but it definitely didn’t go according to the story by the “only (live) witness to the actual shooting” (GZ *giggle giggle* on the Sean Hannity interview).

      • IMHO Jeremy is not being truthful. He says he saw nothing at all. I don’t buy it. I think you have a good catch there would bushes and grass, obviously visual details. Check the dialogue between Jennifer and Jeremy on her call, and the timings thereof. Then look at Jeremy’s statement where he says he went to the kitchen for a knife. In the end units at The Retreat the kitchen is in the front, next to the garage. (In the middle units, the kitchen is in the back, so other witnesses could see/hear things from the kitchen).

        • @whonoze, yeah, I know. When Jen tells him to “get down” and he says “tell them (meaning tell 911) to come NOW.” of course he is watching intently at the window.

        • @whonoze, in talking about Jeremy, it made me go back to listen to the 911 call (yet) again. No doubt you have already discussed/made an analysis of the helps before the gunshot, but maybe I came on this blog too late in the discussion. Yours and anybody’s thoughts would be appreciated (aren’t you glad I’m not talking about crazy internet GZ groupies?)

          In focusing on the 3 “helps” RIGHT before the gunshot: the first is the loudest blood curdling scream where you can barely tell it’s the word help, definitely somebody who was terrified for his life. The second help is a weaker help but drawn out (heeeellllppp). The very last one is a weaker and short “help” right before the gunshot. (I never heard the last two helps after the loud one before until I turned the sound all the way up on my computer.) To me, that last help before the gun sounds like GZ’s voice exemplar, where his “help”s were rather weak, short and controlled. Anybody else concur?

          Now before anybody jumps on me about the conclusion that the last “help” came from GZ, I am saying that it doesn’t sound like the person making that blood curdling scream. I have no doubt that GZ was yelling some of those helps in an attempt to get a neighbor to detain TM, as per his own statement about wanting to restrain TM after the shooting.

          It’s been reported that the FBI couldn’t determine who was yelling for help, but there hasn’t been a final analysis yet, has there? Also, it’s such a WRONG premise that only one of them was yelling for help, and if we determine who that one person was who yelled for help, then he must have been the one under attack. Remember GZ is the one saying only he was yelling help and that TM was just quietly cursing at him, Balony. (Similar to the question of “who was on top”, you can’t make a judgement about a dynamic fight that traveled 50 ft or so that one person seen fleetingly on top would have to be the aggressor.)

          So now, what happened during those last three helps? GZ so willingly gave a voice exemplar and video re-enactment, that it seems he was confident that his version of events would be believable, except things are omitted, jumbled or fabricated. i.e., Did TM actually put his hands up in a “surrender” mode before or after getting shot?

    • Jay, starting to get worried you got strangled by all those tapes😉

      A few screens up ( we have no numbered comments now) there’s a discussion between whonoze and tchoupi about witness times. Maybe they’ll help you a bit, though they’re more about the start times than the blackouts.

      =======
      I think once you decide, you’d call as soon as you get to the phone. So that becomes the only issue – did they use a handy cell phone, or have to go upstairs to a land line? For the ones who, then or later, said they went upstairs, you can add at least half a minute. One did a reenactment with someone, with Serino??? and it took her a minute and a half from when she first saw, to making the decision, to getting upstairs. But she didn’t head up right away.

    • I don’t think that Jayne connected yet with 911 when the gun went off.
      I believe she was in the process of calling 911 though.

      • That’s my take on the source of her confusion. She did say she was on the line with 911 when the shot went off, and she wasn’t, but that is exactly the sort of detail people do remember wrong, and it isn’t important. (Given how close her call is to the time of the shot, she probably decided to call before the shot went off.) And it’s really the only clear error in her account (no “white shirt”, no MMA, no “elderly gentleman”….).

  46. Tchoupi I wish you the best here post surgery. Whonoze and Tchoupi both, I am so impressed with your skills and work. NMLE and the rest, it makes me so happy that there are so many people who will use there skills and personal time to analyze this case. I have only been able to look at things here and there, recently. I have had to concentrate on some other things. It also seems that new evidence is very slow to come in. This leads me to think that there is much to understand about what we already have. Great job you guys!

    I was curious about what others may think of the fact that every witness has stated that there were flashlights seconds after Trayvon was shot. They all assumed that this was the police. We know from the two female witnesses and Jon that there was a gap before the cops actually arrived. Has it occurred to anyone that GZ may have been moving around evidence on purpose? People saw two flashlights. Could he have taken the flashlight up to the T? Was he looking for something? This whole story seems a lot like some sort of initiation. Not an official one, but one that makes GZ feel tough and more like Osterman, a chance to “break in” his gun. Osterman seemed to be someone that he was looking up to and copying at that moment in time. What would Osterman do?—- he likely asked as he and Trayvon wrestled.

    Also on that same note…GZ strikes me as sporadic and immature with his attention, particularly his goals, jobs and personal life. He is not someone who completes or follows through on a project. For instance he was in school, but he wasn’t really putting in the effort needed to complete it. Here he is trying to be the neighborhood hero and watchman when he can’t even make “ends meet”. Where is his focus? He is what I would term a “con” man…one who talks a good game, but you can’t really hold him to anything.

    I think some of these personality traits are important for understanding the odd behavior after he shot Trayvon and during the actual altercation itself. He will have to answer to why there was no defensive response to Trayvon’s supposed attack. He has offered no feasible explanation yet and I consider it the most damning evidence yet. It is the best indication that he was never afraid for his life.

    • Back when all we had were the 911 calls, GZ’s NEN call, and the brief reports from Ayala and Smith, I figured out that the first reports of flashlights appearing weren’t people seeing Smith, so I wondered if GZ had a flashlight, and was looking around the scene after the gunshot. But after JayneW18 talked to CNN, and we learned about JonW13, I’m pretty sure Jon was the first flashlight on the scene, Smith was the second, and GZ didn’t have one on. One of the witnesses would have seen it. Correlating the various statements, the witness testimony basically comes down to two flashlights: JonW13 and Smith.

    • @bgesq, thanks for the link! For a legal document, this response to the Petition for Writ of Prohibition was very amusing to read. The gist? Once again, the state says their claims are legally insufficient, i.e., “NO SOUP FOR YOU!”

      Basically, GZ and O’Mara were trying to appeal Judge Lester’s decision not to recuse himself. They’re afraid GZ won’t get a fair trial because the judge made “gratuitous, disparaging remarks about Mr. Zimmerman’s character; advocates for Mr. Zimmerman to be prosecuted for additional crimes; offers a personal opinion about the evidence for said prosecution and continues to hold over Mr. Zimmerman’s head the threat of future contempt proceedings.” (Boo! Hoo!).

      Below are some excerpts that basically sum up their denial of this Writ of Prohibition (I wrote one sentence in caps below for emphasis, it wasn’t written like that in the document.)
      **********
      “A judge is not required to abstain from forming mental impressions and opinions during the
      course of the presentation of evidence.”

      “None of the comments by the trial court rise to the level of being legally sufficient to establish an objectively reasonable fear by Petitioner that he will not receive a fair trial by the judge. Instead, THE JUDGE WAS SIMPLY GIVING PETITIONER A WELL DESERVED TONGUE LASHING for allowing others to mislead the court about his passport and his financial situation.

      Moreover, the trial court did not rule against Petitioner. The judge again set a bond for Petitioner, and Petitioner is currently out on bond. Thus, the grounds listed by Petitioner in his motion are facially insufficient.

      Reducing the claim to its true essence, the trial judge set a bond on a defendant charged with murder, the judge learned that circumstances were not as previously represented, the judge revoked bond, and, upon motion of Petitioner, set a new higher bond. In a nutshell, when new facts were revealed, the trial judge increased the bond, the defense is unhappy with that ruling, and filed a motion to disqualify the judge who set the higher bond.

      WHEREFORE, based upon the above, Respondent submits that the motion to disqualify in this case is legally insufficient and, thus, the trial court properly denied the motion. The petition for
      writ of prohibition should be denied.”
      **********

  47. Who exactly is the poster justfactsplz/julsfactsplz? Sometimes she posts as OdessaGirl. Here is a post from a GZ site. Is there any merit to this. This poster seems to be close to the case:

    “justfactsplz says:
    August 17, 2012 at 2:59 pm
    First I have to tell you what a beautiful song and video above. I really enjoyed it. The link you provided did a great job on following the phone found at the scene using the evidence released. I personally don’t believe the phone conversation between DeeDee and Trayvon ever took place. If the state has evidence otherwise it is my theory that the log may show the calls happened but it was someone else in Miami talking to DeeDee. Phone pings will tell that story. If it is not that then the phone log is bogus. Chief Lee did nothing further with the phone because by that time he realized it wasn’t Trayvon’s phone. It is not listed in his possessions. I believe Tracey not giving the pin number until he checked with Crump was a stall tactic until they could solidify their story about the phone. It was this “conversation” with DeeDee that set the stage for a murder charge because DeeDee” heard ” George approach Trayvon and this call was part of the arresting affidavit. Am I making sense now? I don’t want to tell too much that is not in evidence yet released because anyone, even the Martin camp can read this if they choose to. There is more about the phone situation and that is all I am willing to say at this time, I hope you understand. Keep digging and sifting and you will find answers.”

    • LOL. This bitch is hella fucking delusional. Just sayin. Everyone is lying, but GZ. DeeDee’s a liar, Chad Green’s a liar, OH…and T-Mobile lies, too. These people want sooo badly for that call to go away, but it ain’t gonna happen.

      • Also, W11, that dumb bitch who supposedly “knows” it was George screaming and getting pummeled, yet didn’t she shit, backs up what DeeDee says was said because she heard WHAT ARE YOU, not this fucking yo mother fucker BULLLLLSHIT. Oh, what about the witnesses (yes, plural) that heard a loud argument? George, you were shouting “No, I don’t have a problem.”

        They need that call to go away because they need DeeDee (with the witness testimony backing what she says went down) and the call in general to just go away. They also need Chad Green’s incoming call to go away since he will testify that GZ was heading back home with no plans to go attack poor wittle Georgie.

        • *see, not she and TM was heading back home, not GZ – Typing while angry produces typos, my bad!

    • She claims to be a close friend of GZ and possibly a relative of MO, (step mother in law??), has been posting for months claiming various types and levels of inside info, some of which are clearly wrong/wishful thinking, and some of which may be right.

      Ahh, I see she’s back on the phone business again. She claimed the phone found at the scene belongs to (and was lost by) a little girl, nothing to do with Trayvon, and his phone was left behind in Miami. Looks like now she’s alleging phone logs were falsified or the phone company is on in the conspiracy. HHmmm…
      To go to this much trouble to deny the DeeDee call, they must think it is a very important piece of evidence against GZ.

      • ****Warning: Rantings from a neurotic poster (me). Disregard if gossip turns your stomach ********
        @Aussie, that’s it! I’ve had it!!!! I’ve given this Odessa lady the benefit of the doubt, but now she’s aligned herself with the craziest people on earth.
        If she’s acting as a PR guru, spreading “information” based on being an insider, and participating in awful racist discussions pertaining to the Martin family, then she should be willing to go public.

        Below is her comment on the nuthouse website in the same article she is credited as being the source for the announcement of MO and SO’s appearance on Dr. Phil’s on Sept 10. She also says she’s not at liberty to tell where the proceeds of the money is going (which means then that she knows.). She herself is pushing the sale of the book on Amazon.

        juIstfactsplz says:
        August 25, 2012 at 9:48 pm
        “You are welcome. I have come to love this website and not just because of George. I enjoy all the articles and threads on politics, too. I owe the moderator a huge favor here and I gave a promise and am delivering on that promise about the book.”

        Per the discussion above, Aussie, you reported/read her posts, so here are all of the things she has said about herself: a relative of MO, 62 years old, lives in a wooded area with bears approx. 13 miles from Deland and 30 miles from Sanford (don’t be fooled by the “Lake County” references because there are areas of Lake county adjacent to deland), Husband’s name is Gary and is 60, stepdaughter blogs/comments on the internet about the case, she has a daughter who lives in Tallahassee and who is a teacher but is staying at home to raise kids, had 2 teenagers about 20 years ago, one daughter graduated from Stetson University. Husband’s ex is named Debbie.

        Other links of interest (note these sites do not have her name directly, just information that support my suspicion of her being MO’s step-mother in law or step something in law)
        http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-11-07/news/9611050391_1_michael-c-debra-y-james-h

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/comp.infosystems.search/3KPAVCKUPrU/UKOvnMEIXHgJ
        http://www26.us.archive.org/stream/stetsonuniversit1996unse/stetsonuniversit1996unse_djvu.txt

        Finally, if you come up with a name, you’ll find she’s a notary public with previous experience in a mortgage company. I can’t post that link since it has both her name and address contact info (or the woman who’s identity she’s taken over) But mortgage company, sound familiar?

        I am absolutely neurotic and bordering on being unethical for having dug up this much information, but it’s irritating me to no end that she’s blasted the Martin family for being money hungry for filing a legitimate claim with the state (victim’s fund), Yet she’s out there now publicizing the sale of a book to capitalize on TM’s death. It’s hypocritical. If they wanted to just let the world know how great GZ is, write it in a blog and interested people will read. Although she says MO had a writer help with the book, it sounds like a self-published book to me (only available on Amazon and as an E-book, people self-publish there thru CreateSpace). I really doubt a legitimate publisher would touch them with a 10-foot pole.
        ***End of rant *****

        Feeling queasy now? You read this anyway. I told you not to!

        • I still don’t buy it, sorry, I just don’t. We’ll see, but, I have my suspicions…this isn’t the first person on the net to act like they are in on the case and know GZ/the fam personally. I just find it weird she says she was outed, but no one knows who she is, and she attempts to post details/out herself, which would not be needed if ever actually outed. She has no inside info. The phone bit is absolutely fake. Trayvon had his phone and was on it – video proof from 7-11 vid. I’ll believe the book bit when it happens, but GZ supporters have been saying that pretty much everyone was going to write a book and get rich, so no belief until it happens. Someone that babbles about the same thing all GZ supporters babble about doesn’t strike me as legit considering most of what is said is devoid of any fact or even any circumstantial indicator.

          • “I just find it weird she says she was outed, but no one knows who she is,”
            etc etc all adds to the mystery, without which there would be zero interest in her, so she’d miss her 15 mins of fame on the periphery of a national case.
            If you really don’t want to be outed you shut your mouth, it’s quite simple.

            Some of the “babble”, she was the one who started it. It helps their cause if some of what she says turns out to be true: makes the supporters feel the rest of it may be true as well.

            We’ll see. None of it will be evidence anyway.

  48. “new” info recently posted to court’s website:

    538 page “document dump” to the court by the defense. Includes transcripts of previous court hearings, and an index.

    http://www.5dca.org/Clerk/George%20Z…8_Appendix.pdf

    allegations already surfacing at Justice Quest that the transcripts are not accurate and have been altered to favor the defense. see this post, which I can’t confirm as correct but pass on here to those who are interested:
    http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1757658&postcount=271

    • justicequest is wrong. I just listened to the Serino interview while reading the transcript and it is VERY accurate, right down to the ums and ahhs. I think I found one “only” missed out, is all.

      In any case they’d be downright stupid to falsify something the whole world has copies of. And the trial is going t be hearing the prosecution’s ORIGINAL anyway, so nothing to be gained from falsifying a transcript.

      This dump it a good resource, time they helped us out anyway. There are some good transcripts there nobody else has had the time or resources to do.

  49. Of greater interest from Justicequest is
    http://www.justicequest.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1757681&postcount=275
    which has found someone called Christina Zimmerman working at the medical practice where GZ went……….and claims to have visually identified that person as being someone with at least 2 arrests for drug possession. Nothing to say she’s related to GZ in any way.

    They’ve left out the link to show the “christina” in the Altamonte web site is called Zimmerman, but here it is:
    Google for “christina zimmerman altamonte” and the pdf comes up 7th item, that shows the connection.

    Of course other resources show 105 women of that name in Florida alone, so that’s not a huge lot of proof of anything.

    • Problem is, there are way too many cases of the cops beating or shooting people and getting away with it. It’s the sort of thing that might make wannabees think they can do it too.

      Because there’s nothing saying bashing or killing is WRONG, it’s just a matter of making a good enough excuse why it was justified. Cops are meant to be protecting people, not treating them like the enemy.

  50. I just caught a promo on TV for the Dr Phil show and yes, Mark Osterman is going to peddle his so called “Most Hated Man in America” book along with his wife. Airs Sept 10th I think, but I didn’t fully catch that part. The Dr Phil website lists shows for this week and it isn’t on this week.

    Looks like the Odessagirl was right about one thing, at least. She may “step out and take a bow” soon. Those who know where to look for her posts, please help us keep tabs on her.

    One wonders what if anything Dr Phil knew about the details of the case to ask Mark Osterman. Too bad the show has already been taped. I can think of quite a few things he should be asked by the press. I guess there is always the “book tour” to consider, if there is one. I wonder if he will grant interviews to (actual, accredited, investigative) journalists as a way to promote the supposed book? I also wonder who his ghost writer/ “as told to” person is, since it seems like there is one.

    I’ve often wondered what Osterman would do if he were pressured by the state to wear a wire and/or “rat out” George under threat of indictment for tampering with evidence. It seems he was on the scene that night and spoke to GZ at some point, as well as participating in the moving of the Honda Ridgeline away from the scene. He also spoke to at least one officer who was at the scene, although none have admitted it as far as we currently know.

    He’s a “person of interest” in my book. I doubt he will be wearing Wonder Woman’s lasso of truth while he’s on Dr Phil hawking his e-book, but you never know what he might say. I guess I will watch and find out.

    • this guy is a witness right? How can he be giving interviews before it’s even gone to court? I really don’t understand how the US court system works.

      In Australia, all the jurors are kept anonymous so there is no chance of any persecution. This is to ensure they make an unbiased decision based on the facts, not out of fear of retribution. They are certainly not allowed to sell their story or even discuss what happened in the jury room. This is all to protect the juror and ensure that they feel safe enough to come to an honest outcome.

      When a crime occurs and there is an investigation, the media only release the information authorised by the police, It is usually just the basics of the crime, and some evidence if they think it will lead to an arrest. When someone is charged you don’t usually hear much more about it, not until the trial. What comes out in trial is reported, sometimes someone may write a book, but it is illegal for someone convicted of a crime to profit from it.

      It would seem anything goes in Florida however. The alleged criminal can solicit donations, you can have a mini-trial at a bond hearing, your lawyer’s can set up web sites and beg for money, so too can the alleged criminals family, the public get to investigate the crime as all the evidence is made public, the trial is televised, jurors are named and can write books and talk to the media about what happened in the jury room (this is crazy imo.).

      Of course i’m not complaining about the release of evidence in this case because there were so many questions about what happened to Trayvon and i’ve been loving every evidence dump. It’s all very interesting and as a bystander it is quite exciting to be able to look into it in such detail, but it is still strange to me to be able to have so much information…(not complaining though, bring on the next dump)…

      just really gets to me how many people can profit of the death of this child. Don’t tell your story in a book, or on Dr. Phil, tell it in fucking court.

      • @Jo, not a lawyer here, but I don’t think there’s anything barring a witness from talking to media/writing a book unless there’s a direct court order for them not to. Remember all the witnesses from the crime scene talking to media? Of course, there are witnesses “for” the prosecution and “for” the defense who are usually advised by the respective council to NOT engage the media. Now as a defense witness, it’s a very curious strategy if the lawyers are authorizing this. I’ve never believed that MO was in the bank video or that he was a tip-off, and while theories abound that he purposely covered up evidence by moving the truck, he himself has not been charged with evidence tampering. That being said, he’s right now just a character witness, so he can go talk to whoever he wants.

        But is it a good idea? Absolutely not for all the obvious reasons. Even GZ supporters are up in arms about this and branding MO a traitor. I don’t think the sale of the book itself will make a million bucks or anything. Does he have THAT many supporters?. Profits on e-books are a few dollars, usually a dollar or less on printed books. As I’ve said earlier, I’m willing to bet it’s a self-published book or carried by a small-time independent publisher that would not have a budget for a “book tour”. The “tour” that they would get would only be a result of any media outlet willing to pay for their “story” which will basically have been told already on Dr. Phil’s. Regardless of how much they make, they’re going to sit back and kick themselves, wondering why they did it.

        Then again, this is absolutely a backdoor way for GZ to get money without having to hand it over to his “defense fund”. I’ve always thought that since being let out of jail, he has told supporters specifically to hang onto their money for something like this. A wealthy donor can buy as many e-book copies as they like to fund GZ, and it will never be known who these buyers are. While MOM has said that they return money from racist donors, no one will know who’s actually buying the book or in what quantity.

        I’m just itching to see how GZ’s filing for indigency will go. Wonder if the state can prevent him or a family member from ever making money off of the book or related activities if he does declare being indigent. Can’t have it both ways, Georgie!

        • thanks WSI. Hopefully MO thinks he is smarter than everyone else (just like GZ) and puts his foot in it and incriminates GZ even more. Anyone speaking out is always risking making things worse for GZ. It will just be another version of what happened and will be used in court. That’s why it baffles me that Hannity’s interview happened at all…..when you’ve already told the police 4 different stories why would you want to add a fifth story to the mix.

          And George should just get a fucking job. He has a lot of supporters and i’m sure some of them would be happy to give him a job, same as Shellie. I really don’t think his life is in danger since he got charged, i just think he’s a slacker, always has been..

      • Jo, in Australia we trust our justice system. ie we actually HAVE a justice system.

        In the US they have everything available to the public so that people can satisfy themselves there were no illegal shenanigans going on. If you look at how many police still get away with murder, and how many innocent people are still locked up for decades for minor charges, it sort of makes sense.

        While we do have racism against Aboriginals, especially from the police, they are a tiny minority and many people support them, so it’s not institutionalised as it is in America.

        Also it makes a big difference just about nobody here runs around with guns, not even most of the criminals. The police often arrest people without even bothering to handcuff them; certainly they don’t shackle them like wild bears in a zoo, and no harm comes to anyone from it.

    • Disgusting. I hope he answers how and why he was at the scene so early. What was his business there, and who did he talk to and what did he say. Why was he allowed on scene? What are the officers afraid of that they didn’t want to mention his buddy magically appearing on scene and talking to him? Oh, and Mark Osterman, how many people did you attempt to influence on scene that night? What evidence did you tamper with other than the vehicle? Despicable fucking people. Go spread more lies. You probably need to lie, Mr. Osterman, because there’s probably something you need to cover your ass for. If self-defense was the truth, no lie would ever need to be told.

      • yes qetno lets hope he is egotistical and self righteous like his buddy and enjoys to brag. There might be a few slip ups which is usually what happens when someone thinks they are smarter than they are.

        • So far, all the others speaking for him haven’t done him any favors, so let’s hope that continues with MO/SO. Hope you’re well, jo; this case is wearing on me.

          • Not to get too far ahea of ourselves here but if odessagirl is in contact with the osterman’s as she claims, she’s made an odd claim about the cell phone found by TM’s body. She claims it belongs to a young girl- maybe it does and maybe it doesn’t- but consider this: is her source a leaker in th SPD who is close enough to the investigation to know details like this and is this person leaking to mark osterman?

            Certainly the SPD has had leaks – to the Orlando Sentinel, to the NYT, from Barnes/ Barns (sp?) to Tracy Martin and likely others I’m forgetting. But what’s rhe significance of a leak to osterman? That’s like a pipeline to the defendant from the inside of the investigation. Surely this is breaking rhe law somewhere along he way.

            Again, too bad there was never a real credible investigation of the SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office.

            • @willisnewton, I got wasted with QETNO in NLME’s cellar, fell asleep, and you’ve forced me to come up here again, despite my vow just hours ago to hide until new evidence. That’s alright, man. In case someone misunderstands your speculation here, I’ll put in my 2 cents.

              I’ve read OG’s posts and this MIS-information about the phone is not a leak from the SPD. She has said it was an independent investigation by the defense. Simply because she may be a relative of MO and has been “right” in forecasting the show, it does NOT lend any credence whatsoever to her claims about the phone or anything else about the case. She built a following of outrageous racists misfits over at clickorlando and then felt confident enough to “out” herself under another pseudonym one day on the nuthouse website. Even the nuthouse leader had enough sense to shut her down and redact her posts really fast regarding her identity. Unlike her other idiotic followers, the posters in the nuthouse then began to challenge her on these claims but some are revering her like the all-knowing goddess. All of her answers have been along the lines of “I don’t know” or “that’s more than I’m willing to reveal right now, don’t worry *wink* it will all come out later.” All of this before the big reveal on THE BOOK and advertisement of its sale. Do you see where this was going? The book in my opinion will have nothing except how they snuck pizza in the back door to feed their fugitive friends.

              BTW, thanks for the link above. That was a good find. Not new evidence but a good resource. Thanks again. …….now I wonder what’s in NLME’s kitchen, I’ve gotta beat this hangover and I’m starving……

            • WSI – thanks for clarifying about “odessagirl” and in general keeping it real. Like I said I didn’t want to get ahead of ourselves here. But I do openly wonder what level of contact Mark Osterman has/ had within the SPD. All I know for sure is that he tacitly admitted he was on the scene and talked to officers the night of the shooting. I realize I’m grasping at straws by taking anything odessagirl says seriously at all.

              I also agree Odessagirl is likely deranged on some level, maybe multiple levels. But even the weirdest rumors usually have an origin of some sort that can be traced to a source, no matter how mistaken. Is she inventing from whole cloth the idea that the phone belonged to a little girl based solely on the heart shaped-sticker on the case? Or is the “investigator/ investigation” by the defense something that Mark Osterman came up with, and if so, how? (He does seem to be a “source” for some of her comments in her posts.) What exactly did he tell her, and why?

              Clearly, we don’t have these answers now and may not ever. But I mentioned the question in passing because Osterman is indeed such a mystery at present. He’s a person of interest in a non-ongoing investigation I fear. Corey wants a conviction, not a second by second account of what really happened that night. That might not ever be possible, absent a confession by GZ and a few others. (But then again, it might. All GZ really has at present to offer the state in exchange for leniency is a move to spare them the expense of a trial.)

              The SAO has to look at the SPD’s investigation like the proverbial gift horse you don’t examine too closely. They need the cooperation of the detectives Singleton and Serino at the very least until the trial is over. But there is a lot that went on there worthy of its own investigation, which hasn’t happened. The Justice Department did NOT make the SPD the focus of their efforts. They focused on whether of not Trayvon’s civil rights were violated by GZ, not whether or not they were violated by the SPD. That level of scrutiny was deserved, I felt (so long as it extended to Norm Wolfinger as well) but it was a notch above what the current executive administration may have felt was called for politically at the time. Certainly Holder’s DOJ has gone after metropolitan police departments in the past, and deservedly so it seems to root out institutional corruption and racism. IMO they did NOT do that here. The DOJ moved to signal an answer to the groundswell of citizens and had the republicn Florida governor not also acted to appoint a special prosecutor, the DOJ may have gone further eventually but since Angela Corey was appointed it seems the DOJ backed off a bit on their mandate. I hope someday we will know more, but right now all “I know is what’s in the papers” as Will Rogers said.

              Wolfinger quietly announced he won’t run for re-election, and SPD cheif Bill Lee left semi-quietly eventually. Neither man was questioned by DOJ investigators in any manner we are likely to see the results of, I’m guessing. Florida Sunshine laws are great but there is a level of dirt we’re never going to know about here. Certainly there were no federal subpoenas served, nor photo ops of FBI agents carrying out the file cabinets of the SPD into moving vans.

              Osterman is either a minor sidelight to the case or else he’s something else, and we may never know. I do know this: I wish it was Serino who was about to publish a book on the case. And I wish Norm Wolfinger and the SPD were the target of a credible outside investigation into the level of incompetence, corruption or racism at the root of the initial handling of the case. Serino wanted to press manslaughter charges and has clearly caught GZ in a pack of lies, yet no charges were filed. What are we to truly make of that?

            • @willisnewton, her claims about the phone came out months ago, so I’m thinking it was just a weird “lead” that the defense was looking into, but nothing concrete surfaced. She was never able to give any more hints on what evidence they actually found there, but to maintain her “in the know” status, she kept saying stuff like OMara’s got the goods. Whose idea was it? Don’t know, but crazy OG and her stepdaughter (as she’s mentioned) have both been reading/commenting on internet blogs for the last 4 months, so crazy ideas could have been picked up from anywhere. I think your suspicions about MO and SPD are well-founded for other reasons as you stated. Yes, I too would like to know what influence if any MO had in the initial investigation and what in the world happened to Serino. Too bad we can’t hear more from him, his one liners as heard in the interrogations were priceless!

      • @QETNO,
        Oy vay, I am so itching for a new evidence dump. This lull is bringing out all sorts of craziness in people (me included I think). The news of the day here is this darn book, and over at Leatherman’s (I don’t post there but was just now skimming through the 400 or so comments on the latest thread) ……man oh man. Some good comments in there but it’s peppered with people bickering over who got credit for posting what, and then there are the very opinionated who cannot understand what a discussion is all about. Wow. I appreciate the tolerance/respect we generally have of each other here, and any disputes arise from simple differences of opinion on the case.

        FYI, I’m hiding out in the cellar until there’s something real to talk about. Yup, I found NLME’s beer stash down there! 🙂

        • It’s just maddening to me to continuously read the derogatory comments about TM/TM’s friends/TM’s family, the outright lies, and the denial of GZ’s actions/lies. I have a low bull tolerance, and without new evidence to distract, I’m just getting sick of reading the complete bull GZ supporters are spewing out; TM isn’t here to tell his story, but GZ gets to put his out there over and over ad nauseum.

          Maybe I should back away from keyboard and computer in general to join you in NLME’s cellar. No worries, dude, I’ll bring my own alcohol instead of jacking your stash.😛

          • Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. Haters gotta hate. I wouldn’t let a small minority of intolerant and willfully ignorant blog commenters get you down. Keep in mind two million people signed online petitions to press for justice in the form of a credible investigation into the killing of an unarmed teenager and this is what brought about the murder charges.

            Almost everything else that’s has happened pales in comparison to that initial response to the killing and the way it was handled by the SPD chief of police and Norm Wolfinger, both of whose careers have suffered since.

            Justice was lacking; now justice is coming for George Zimmerman. All the race hatred, lies and ignorance fomented by a pack of misguided knuckle draggers won’t change that fact.

            I just feel sorry for them. They are so willfully ignorant and easily mislead by dark forces within their own nature. On some level each one seems to wish for the day when they can righteously shoot someone. It’s wish-fulfillment fantasies that seem to unite and drive them. Like GZ himself, it’s a moral failing wrought from doubt and fear and ignorance and the inability to keep an open mind that condemns them to a life of hate. No one but themselves are to blame, ultimately. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

        • It’s getting a bit Jerry Springer over at Leatherman’s isn’t it? I hope you guys who frequent there are OK have been able to dodge the metal chairs being thrown around. Hang on and stay safe. If hit in the nose by one though, make sure you get x-rays. Crossing fingers for the 7th discovery to be released soon so the natives don’t get restless….

      • I was wondering if Osterman got special approval to do an interview or if he’s already been canned and no longer has an obligation to maintain animosity as an air marshall should.

        • @CSFC, you said “I was wondering if Osterman got special approval to do an interview or if he’s already been canned and no longer has an obligation to maintain animosity as an air marshall should.”

          I think you mean “anonymity” instead of “animosity”, but he may be “maintaining animosity” now that he’s probably (guessing here) been put on indefinite leave. I don’t know if they have an equivalent of a “desk job” for air marshalls when they’re no longer fit for field work.

          Lime-a-ritas, hmmmm… “Anheuser-Busch’s marketing story is that beer drinkers had been mixing Bud Light Lime into margaritas to create “beer ritas,” so the company decided to simplify the process.” Yes, simplify it for those kids already too drunk to squeeze the lime juice themselves…….

          • You’re right. I screwed that up royally! I meant “anonymity” and not animosity. I’ll be the first to admit I can’t type a lick.. especially with my computer “helping me”! ARGGHHH

    • It’s an excellent thing that they discuss the case in public. So, let them hang themselves.
      The title of the book is “Most Hated Man in America”! At least there is some level of admittance on the cover page. I have zero doubt that beyond that cover page it will be a fabrication or boring.
      I also realize that the book may focus on GZ’s poor life in hiding. You know, he was just defending his life against that thug and look what the evil media did to him. That’s the main theme on invader Zim’s planet. That’s what make them open their wallet.
      I just hope that there will be a few chapters about Feb 26th events. That could be a good gift from the Zims to the Martins.

      • I predict another 404 on the launch. Zimmerman’s was priceless and an encore is needed. I think Osterman and crew (Odessa Girl Promotions) is fully capable of producing a new 404 embarrassment to the greedy camp.

      • I’m wondering if he still is an air marshall. Maybe he’s already gotten the boot. I pray that not even he is stupid enough to think that selling Zimmerman’s lies via book sales will make him set for life.

  51. Found a full, unredacted 911 call of witness 18. Jayne Sur…

    It’s on the YouTube channel For The Public Record. I transcribed it and put in the actual times. To give you an idea of the times, my transcription starts:

    7:17:06 Dispatch: 911. Do you need police,
    7:17:07 fire, or medical?
    7:17:08 W18: Yes.
    7:17:09 Um. I
    7:17:10 live at 3021
    7:17:11 Retreat View
    7:17:12 Circle.

    and it ends:

    7:31:14 W18: Okay. Dispatch: But in the
    7:31:15 meantime, we’ll have an officer
    7:31:16 come out there and meet with you.
    7:31:17 W18: Alright.
    7:31:18 Thank you.
    7:31:19 Dispatch:
    7:31:20 You’re welcome.
    7:31:21 W18: Bye.

    I am excited about a possibility here for aligning the 911 calls. As I listened I noticed that in the pauses you can hear the other dispatchers in the background. This W18 call may be used to correct some of the lost time in the others.

    @willisnewton: I think the witnesses are human evidence. Their inaccuracies will wash out in my comparative spreadsheet. There are some amazing things to be learned in there. Most of us will be able to agree when we see the end result.

    • This is great as it confirms call time & address. Could you post a link. I hate browsing through all the hits a search can get… and I feel lazy.

          • IIRC, Jay’s putting together a spreadsheet of actual statements (vs. analysis of same) that omits the questions asked by the interviewers to see what is revealed as a whole by each witness. That’s why he’s transcribing their whole statements instead of relying on the transcriptions already out there on the internet. A pretty daunting task! It will provide a different view of what we’ve seen and I think it’s awesome that he’s committed his time to such a huge pain-in-the-butt project.

          • Yes. It’s a real headache. But I’m learning new stuff from each witness. After transcribing I eliminate the interviewer (but not the dispatcher on police calls) by incorporating the questions into the responses. This puts it all into narrative form. Then I sequence, assign times, merge files, put into chrono order, and eliminate repetitions. I have developed composites like that for w1,2,3,5,18. Have worked on sections of others. I think I have all the written statements and 911 calls done.

            Lastly they are carefully inserted into the spreadsheet. I’m merging cells in blocks of time wherever there is a lot of text that needs to stay together. An example would be John w6 who says volumes about his 10 second porch view of the tussle. This can be sequenced further into atoms such as when he realizes there is someone on the bottom, when they shift parallel to the sidewalk, etc.

            In the interviews they explain what was happening during their police call. These get interleaved so there is only one column per witness. The merged cells allows column width to stay narrow but requires a double click to expose hidden text.

            • Again, thank you for all your hard work! You’ve been doing a great job – it’s much appreciated, and it will be a fantastic resource.🙂 Keep up the stellar work!

  52. Hey NLME!

    You still with us dude? Drop a line here to let us know you’re OK, and just say ‘hi’ to those of us still hanging around in your house…

    • This judge was the highest rated judge in central fl….on everything, Judge Lester had highest ratings of any central Fl. Judge in all aspects!…knowledge, fairness, decorum. The Highest!!!
      I couldn’t understand why they would not want this judge in spite of his perfectly understandable remarks.
      So, I’m thinking there’s an old saying ” Be Careful What You Wish For, You Just May Get It.”
      Here’s hoping GZ gets one of those pro prosecution judges..maybe the one who a DA said he didn’t have to do much preparation to win his cases.

      • I hope he gets a(nother) fair judge and a spirited and hearty defense and a fair trial and an impartial jury. And that the state does it’s job decently well.

        • Ditto that. My worry is that even when Zimmerman is found guilty, O’Mara’s setup/opened a back door for Zimmerman to appeal on ineffective counsel since he claims to have forgotten to turn over Zimmerman’s passport, etc. But, who knows! Maybe that’s why Judge Lester said he wasn’t so concerned about that part and the State had taken measures to prevent its use any way. Maybe Judge Lester was pre-defeating an ineffectual counsel argument if they try to appeal on that basis.

      • If whoever they get to preside is just as no-nonsense and no-BS as Judge Lester, Zimmerman’s in trouble. All Zimmerman and his lawyer have are theatrics and trickery.

    • Thanks for updating us, CSFC. Well, GZ, you got exactly what you wanted…you should have a drink to celebrate! Oh, wait…

      • You’re welcome. I think Zimmerman should be re-arrested on any charges the State can bring and sit it out in jail until the new judge is assigned. Hopefully, the new judge will deny bond which could help end the offensive begging campaigns O’Mara and the Zimmerman camp put forth.

        • Kicking off an honorable, high-rated, no bull Judge who calls it as it is sets a bad precedent. JKL showed no bias. GZ knew what he did in the first bond hearing. It’s fairly obvious by the photo captured at the end where he can’t even contain his laughter with that fucking creepy grin. Apparently, stating the truth is now “going overboard.” What a crock of shit. I hope GZ gets fucked to the full extent under the law.

          • Update on new judge per Miami Heraldhttp://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/30/2977516/zimmerman-gets-new-judge-but-lawyers.html

  53. FWIW here is a comparison of Osterman’s appearance in the Dr Phil promos vs the guy in the ATM bank surveillance video. (Hat tip to tchoupi, I stole his screen grabs from axiom amnesia.)

    ostermanComparions

    I’m no good with faces, at all. But having said that, this looks like the same guy to me.

    What I want to know is, how did the state know to look at those videos and who spotted MO and why? I doubt they were on a fishing expedition and happened to spot him purely by chance. Which means they had a reason to look there, which leads me to some rather startling questions, such as who told them to look there? The state did not directly question GZ, nor did they question / interview Shellie Zimmerman either. That kind of leaves Osterman himself, unless there is something we don’t know about.

    Why did he feel the need to explain his presence near the shooting and provide information about his stopping by an ATM shortly before the shooting? It’s no alibi…

    In the summary of a (joint) interview he gave with FBI and FDLE he claims he spoke with officers and GZ at the crime scene but not “in depth,” and he was also present at the last round of the interviews with Serino and Singleton on the 29th, according to video from the police station lobby. He housed GZ and SZ for a few weeks after the shooting, apparently starting with the very first night. He’s mixed up in the business of moving the Honda Ridgline away from the scene before investigators knew it was ever there. The claim is that Shellie called MO for help after learning of the shooting, but the exact who called whom first and when have not been established by evidence in the public realm. GZ was photographed holding a cell phone moments after the killing, and LATER apparently asked the photographer/resident JonW13 to call his wife and tell her he shot someone. It’s not clear if JonW13 gave the location or not. So many questions, so few answers yet.

    Why would the state want evidence to prove he was on the scene or near the area? Questions about the gates being closed, the possible existence of a tip off man, etc come into play here, and have been discussed at length already. But again my question is, why did the state want to prove he was in the area, and who told them to look there (at the ATM video)?

    • I cannot wait to find out whether this is MO at the bank! Before I was pretty sure, now not so much. Mark has an expressive little mouth, the bank vid mouth is bland and puffy. And Mark also has a bit of a cleft, most noticeable in the lower left pic, while the bank vid pic shows a puffy but uncleft chin. But Mark’s lost weight for sure, when I compare him to his earlier shots. And he’s wound up on Dr. Phil, so maybe his mouth takes on more character with stress. And maybe the light and general haziness of the bank vid pic just can’t catch the cleft. So I’m still not sure. Gaaaaaaaah! This case is full of these “close, but maybe not quite” mysteries.

  54. Frank Taaffe’s DUI police dashcam video is now public.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-frank-taaffe-dui-video-20120829,0,5468231.story

    (and man, is he wasted…. )

    According to the story and the video, he admits he had just left a bar, claims he had two beers and apparently was stopped after a bar employee watched him try to start his car for five minutes. He’s staggering and disoriented in the video, visibly impaired.

    I’m unsure how any of this will or won’t affect the case against George ZImmerman, but wanted to pass on the news to those who are interested.

    • @0:34 into the dashcam vid, Taaffe’s license plate is viewable although still somewhat blurred. Is this his car and is the tag on the vehicle even relevant if it’s not mentioned in evidence of the cars found on the scene, seen on clubhouse vids, seen in the reenactment (where taffe’s car was parked OJ crooked/sideways across his driveway) or seen on bank vids?

      If it’s mentioned in evidence, what page is it on and from which dump?

      We can’t search some evidence dumps because they are provided in unsearchable pdf format. My guess for what to search for within the searchable dumps to find out if Taaffe was parked on RVC are something like possibly:

      – *HCC21
      – *MCC21
      – *HC621
      – *MC621

      Frank Taaffe was stopped at a red light signal leading to a left turn exit towards Rhinehart Rd.

    • Thanks for posting, willisnewton! I still wonder if GZ was impaired the night of 2/26…maybe a night out with his boys?

      • We won’t ever know what pills and drink GZ may have had that night – he refused to go to the hospital where they may have tested him.

        If he was drinking it was still somewhat early in the evening, but any alcohol at all combined with his meds were a bad combination I’d bet.

  55. If it’s Osterman, he probably told them he was in the area when they asked how he arrived so soon and they then only had to verify. If it’s not something Osterman told on himself about, it could be a something Tracy Martin’s private investigator uncovered and turned over to the State, FDLE, the FBI or even SPD after verification.

    If it’s not Osterman, it’s weather related is still my guess and some unlucky overweight bald banking customer can thank Zimmerman for becoming a famous unknown.

  56. No way the prosecution would get video to help prove a minor witness had good excuse to be nearby. That’s a defence job. A Martin family PI is more likely.

    BUT, on the night, an officer was dispatched to obtain videos from ALL businesses in the area, hoping to get some line on who TM was or where he came from etc. Possibly the vids didn’t turn up right away (being Sunday night) and they may not even have been looked at AT ALL by the time they did. Prosecution would still add them into the dump, to keep the defense busy and avoid allegations of holding stuff back.

    The 7-11 store was open and the police could have watched it on the spot, and seen TM on it. he they got copies probably next day.

    Osterman has lost a LOT of weight. There is a little-boy chubbiness in his cheeks, but the pronounced double chin of the bank videos is gone. He’s still very big in the shoulders, a bit less pronounced in tailored clothes (we only ever saw him in Tees before).

    In the original bank comparison imgur I used stills from him in the tapes where he accompanies GZ out of court, trying to pick camera angles as close as possible to the bank ones.

    The ears and nose are the same. The mouth IS expressive, in the bank vid he pulls faces and seems to be saying a few words to himself. It is a good face, well worth watching closely for body-language signals; he’s not at all guarded. Strange, I expected a much deeper voice.

    • I still think there is more to the bank video than we can guess. The person we think is osterman is also the last customer on the video, so that seems to say the purpose of the tape clip is to show him there. But I seriously doubt the state found his appeareance through bank transaction records. And I don’t see why Osterman would want to volunteer to the FBI that he was at the ATM so early in the evening – what does he have to gain by this?

      He can’t deny he was at the scene, since apparently he spoke to officers of some kind on the scene. And he was there early enough to speak to GZ before he was taken to the SPD.

      I hate to enter into conspiracy theory territory but based on what little info se have, I can’t rule out the possibility that MO is going to be a secret witness for the prosecution. He may be facing charges of tampering with evidence for all we know in connection with his involvement in moving the Honda Ridgeline from the scene.

      It seems the prosecution had an interest in his whereabouts and he likely provided the information for them to establish his whereabouts. There are several potential explanations for that sequence of events. I’m willing to keep an open mind until we know more.

  57. We now know from the defense dump that Shellie’s car is a Honda. It seems that her car was noted near the scene after the shooting by the police the night of 2/26. Perhaps she drove up there taking Mark Osterman, or perhaps he took his own car? In the ‘re-enactment’ video, Shellie is visible talking to a bicyclist near the south-to-east curve in TTL, standing next to a car people have identified as a Toyota. Osterman and Robert Z. Sr. are visible near the east-to-south curve of TTL, kind of hiding behind the big truck that is always parked there (presumed to belong to Jeremy).

    So, is that’s a Toyota, who does it belong to? The logical guesses would be Osterman or RZ Sr. (The vid is way too lo-res to read the plate number.)

    No big conclusion, I just wonder if there are any clues we can find to when Osterman arrived at The Retreat, pursuing the hypothesis that he may have alerted GZ to TM’s presence… Can anyone make out anything about the vehicle in the bank video?

    • The Toyota could be Shellie’s or a neighbour’s or anyone’s, O”Mara may have got it wrong about two Hondas OR she had a Toyota in February and a Honda at the bond hearing. It really doesn’t matter, it’s not part of the evidence. EXCEPT for one other Honda mentioned at the scene with no owner named, and a tag number I don’t know how to trace from here.

      Osterman left the bank at 6.38, could have been at RATL gate at 6.40. The video shows only the window of the car, hard to say what it might be. Not light/medium blue. Guy like that won’t be driving a small sedan.

      • Well, it may matter what vehicle the key found at the scene attached to the mini-flashlight fits, and I’m guessing it fits Shellie’s 2009 Honda.

        • Do you think GZ was driving her vehicle? Are you thinking SZ was in the car? What’s in that brain of yours, whonoze?

          • No, I’m just thinking that he grabbed the mini-flashlight because he was going looking for a ‘goon’, and it just happened to have the spare key for Shellie’s car attached.
            So it doesn’t matter THAT much. It’s one more piece that contradicts GZ’s BS story.
            Someone told him a black kid in a hoodie was walking around. He put on his gun, and grabbed his ‘tactical’ flashlight. But he’d had some trouble with that before, so grabbed the mini as a backup.

            He cruised RVC until he spotted Trayvon by the mailboxes. He drove by slow, then parked to watch and call the cops.

            Then Trayvon, who just wants to go home at this point, walks TOWARD GZs truck. In GZ’s mind this escalates things to condition red. He shits a brick, then gathers himself when Trayvon mercifully decides not to kill him. He WILL keep the kid in sight. He turns the Ridgeline around. He sees Trayvon is still just walking, and so he’s not sure. But then Trayvon takes off running down the sidewalk to the South. That cinches it. Only a goon runs! This is IT! He’s got a live one! he’s so excited he bolts from the truck without taking his keys or turning off the lights.

            About four and a half minutes later, shit has gotten out of hand and Trayvon Martin is screaming in anguish. The thought “What the fuck” is starting to fprm in the back of GZ’s head. About 30 seconds after that Trayvon Martin is dead, and GZ realizes he could be in a heap of trouble. He messes with the body and maybe the scene a bit, and then he’s surprised by a flashlight. He’s relieved to see it’s NOT a cop, but he realizes an officer will arrive sooner rather than later. His mind tells him, “Don’t look guilty!” So he has to act weirdly cool with JonW13.

            He knows the Neighborhood Watch rules, knows he broke them, thinks “that won’t look good,” thinks “I’ve got to figure out what to tell them,” thinks “I can’t say I left the truck to chase this kid… wait, the address, they asked me about the address, that’s it… oh fuck, the truck, that doesn’t look like I went looking for an address.” He can’t go back to the truck with JonW13 standing there. He makes a phone call: “If you can get the truck out of there before….”

            And, sure enough, the SPD doesn’t secure the truck before Shellie and Mark Osterman get there. Shellie drives with Osterman to the bend in TTL. Shellie drives the Ridgeline back home, leaving her car key with Osterman. Osterman goes to have a desultory talk with the police, to find out what he can about how big a shit-pile his buddy George has stepped in. Realizing fairly soon that the discrete move is not to hang around too long, he drives Shellie’s Honda back to the Zimmerman townhome.

            That’s what I’m thinking…

            • They still have the key/flashlight in evidence locker.

              They can EASILY find out what it belongs to by seeing if it will work in GZ’s truck. Or failing that, in any other Honda the family owns.

  58. Hmm. It occurs to me that the SPD may not have played W11’s 911 call for W6. He says he heard a cry for help, and indeed GZ could have cried for help BEFORE the screaming (by TM) started. (And W6 saying ‘I’m calling 911’ isn’t on the recording either, so probably occurred before, since other witnesses heard him say it). Odd they haven’t asked W6 to correlate what can be heard on that recording with what he saw and when he saw it, eh?

  59. Over on Leatherman’s blog, commenter ‘Patricia’ has a rather detailed hypothesis of how the altercation between GZ and TM occurred, in which she opines that the screams resulted from GZ having Trayvon gripped in some kind of pain-inducing ‘hold’, which he could have executed from either a superior position, or lying on his back with the youth above him trying to push himself away, but unable to do so.

    The more I think about Patricia’s analysis, the more I find this idea that GZ had TM in some sort of painful ‘hold’ persuasive, and I shall cross-post my discussion of the matter here. (Since this is the evidence crowd, and most of the people on Leatherman aren’t that interested in this stuff…)

    We can ask: what would account for the KIND of screams heard on W11’s 911 call? There only seem to be 4 physically possible answers since there were only 2 people there:

    1. George Zimmerman was screaming in pain for reasons he is covering up with lies.
    2. George Zimmerman was screaming in pain for the reasons he told the police: Trayvon Martin was smashing his head into the ground and/or trying to smother him, and/or George was getting beaten in the face by Trayvon’s fists.
    3. Trayvon Martin was screaming in anguished fear of death because George Zimmerman was pointing a loaded gun at him at point blank range.
    4. Trayvon Martin was screaming in pain because George Zimmerman was hurting him physically.

    Due to GZ’s thorough mendacity we can’t totally discount #1, but there’s no evidence for it so we’ll leave it aside.

    #2 is essentially physically impossible by virtue of the nature of the sounds on the 911 call alone, not to mention GZ’s lack of serious injury.

    #3 is what I had been assuming, but in light of Patricia’s argument I’m thinking the particular tone of the anguish is not consistent with psychological terror. I’m not talking about the INTENSITY of the distress, but literally it’s tonal quality. Even in the height of abject fear, I think a person might utter more words, and clearer words than we hear on the recording. Not just “Help!” but “Don’t” “Please” “Don’t Shoot” etc. Instead it’s hard to make out any words at all. Audio forensics expert Alan Reich has argued that the words “I’m begging you” are audible within the screams. But the fact that they are not that clear suggests they were articulated through some physical distress. the majority of the screams are really more like howls, of the kind I might make when I drop a heavy tool on the infected ingrown toenail of my left foot (as I did the other day…)

    #4 not only matches the sounds themselves, but fits some conditions that seem to have been likely in the situation. In JohnW6’s 911 call, before IMHO he got ‘poisoned’ by suggestion, he describes the two men as ‘wrestling’, and all the witness statements taken together are more consistent with the men being quite close to one another on the ground, rather than some distance apart – even to the extent of one lying down and the other sitting up. The physical evidence from the autopsy and the examination of GZ suggests that this was not a struggle of blows at all, which leaves either not much struggle, or a struggle of holding and grabbing (i.e. wrestling) as possibilities. Zimmerman was able to obtain work as a bouncer. Barring the (plausible) possibility he lied his way into that gig without having any qualifications, bouncers generally have to know how to get a physical advantage on unruly patrons without permanently injuring them. Like, say, putting them in painful holds and asking them nicely to leave. I would also guess that Air Marshalls like GZ’s self-defense mentor Mark Osterman receive special training on how to gain physical control of unruly airplane passengers without permanently injuring them or causing potential harm to the flight or other passengers. Sounds like knowledge of ‘holds’ to me. It also just makes more sense that gung-ho vigilante that he may be, GZ would not go right to the gun, but would try physical restraint first. After all, it’s more manly and bad-ass c.f. Chuck Norriss.

    Of course, If GZ was inflicting physical pain on Trayvon Martin, there’s no self defense claim and he’s guilty of Murder 2, even if he did only draw his gun in response to something he interpreted at Trayvon reaching for it. I’m not denying the possibility he may have decided he needed to shoot TM to keep the boy from telling his side of the story. (I think that’s possible, but not really probable…) that would be Murder 1, of course, but it would be awfully hard for the State to prove, and they can get him put away for a very long time not just on Murder 2, but even on Manslaughter with the mandatory special circumstances under Florida law.

    So the question becomes, what additional evidence could support possibility #4, and do we think the State investigators will bother to go look for it. Are painful restraints part of Osterman’s skill set? Did he teach his moves to George? Did George have any other training in that area, formal or otherwise? (Martial arts courses?) Did George ever display abilities to put people in painful holds on any other occasion, either for real or even as a gag? What medical tests, if any, could reveal if someone had been restrained via a painful ‘hold’, and if such tests were not performed on Trayvon’s body at the autopsy, would his remains reveal any telltale traces if the body were exhumed for a more thorough investigation?

  60. Does anyone have a link for the FULL episode of Dr Phil’s interview with Mark Osterman and TMs step mom? All I can find is a clip of the preview and Dr Phil’s website only has a couple clips. Not the full episode. If someone can find it and post the link that would be great. Thank you.

  61. Knock Knock…Hello to all of you May I come In???? I have read every single comment on this site and the other one…You all are amazing!!! I too am anxious for more information on this case. I honestly think from all I have read that GZ was trying to “hold” Trayvon, detain him in some manner. With some sort of force, and I think the gun was out for show of power. Just my thoughts. I truly enjoy reading you all’s stuff here. It is nice to have a place of good information and thought process. Thank You.

    • Hi Judy! Welcome. I don’t know what “other” site you’re talking about or if you meant the other thread. Just in case, wanted to let you know that the more recent comments are at this link. Every now and then the conversation moves on so you have to “follow” the new post.
      https://bcclist.com/2012/08/29/appeal-court-removes-judge-lester-in-george-zimmerman-case/

      You said: “I honestly think from all I have read that GZ was trying to “hold” Trayvon, detain him in some manner. With some sort of force, and I think the gun was out for show of power.”

      I don’t know if the gun was a “show of power” but it certainly made him feel more confident, otherwise, I don’t think he would ever have gotten out of the truck in the first place. As far as when it actually came out, I don’t think we’ll ever know that for sure, but the probability of it happening the way GZ describes it is about 0.00001%.

      • Yes Was So Interesting, I was talking about the other blog that is now closed, and I am learning my way around so please bear with me, and HaHaHa just which “way” George says it happen were you talking about???? LOL I will check out the link above if my little lap top for the sofa will let me…

      • Thank you! It was alot of good reading, however I did not get to follow all the links or videos posted but that is due to my little sofa lap top not letting me. Learning my way around here so please be patient. It took awhile but was so worth it! I am glad to find a place with good information on this case I have followed it along for awhile. I live in Colorado by the way. Far from Florida. I see today no DNA from Trayvon on the gun or holster. I was not surprised by this.

  62. I find it interesting the Zimmerman ADHA issues are again being talked about. I brought this issue up once before but everyone discarded it. If I am not mistaken, O’Mara has not withdrawn the request for the Stand Your Ground hearing/

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