Recapping George Zimmerman’s 2nd Bond Hearing

In summation, TruTV cuts out for commercials at the worst timing ever. So, the below may not be fully complete but it’s what I gathered from their live courtroom feed…

The 2nd bond hearing was seemingly used to introduce more information rather than rule on a new bail.

“I understand what you’re doing. You’re almost doing a reverse Arthur. Putting in the evidence to show what you think…perhaps the state was unable to do so.” ~ Judge Lester

For example, O’Mara addressed witnesses and spoke about the Zimmermans spending/moving around the donations, George Zimmerman’s bloodied head (which apparently wasn’t actively bleeding when the EMT witness showed up) including medical records from the day following the shooting, and the fact that Zimmerman was ABSOLUTELY crying for help per Robert Zimmerman (this disagrees with George Zimmerman himself during a statement to Sanford PD, 2 independent forensics experts, the FBI, etc.).

De la Rionda introduced Zimmerman’s probation officer who confirmed that no booze or guns were found in his two visits to the Zimmerman’s residence. [Note: I’m guessing there’s something to suggest Zimmerman consumed alcohol or possessed a firearm while on probation.]

I was shocked at how O’Mara handled the bond hearing. He introduced a handful of things that were confusing to Zimmerman’s case such as medical records showing only a LIKELY broken nose/head abrasions requiring soapy water, now recanted MMA style fighting witness statement from “John” (witness #6…not #20 or #9 as O’Mara suggested), and admitting that his client was acting like a paranoid idiot when allowing his wife to lie under oath. To top it off, O’Mara asked if Zimmerman could address the judge one on one without cross examination in an attempt to explain his inaction during Shellie’s testimony. Of course, Judge Lester didn’t agree to the terms and said something like, “He shouldn’t be apologizing or explaining anything to me — it’s the court and judicial process that he’s accountable to.”

In the end, O’Mara claimed that Zimmerman should be granted bond again because he’s being unjustly charged with a crime and shouldn’t be locked up until the trial takes place in a year or so. That’s his #1 argument and completely contrived in my opinion. O’Mara never uttered the words Stand Your Ground but is, at the least, taking the self defense angle. In order to take a self defense angle, we’d have to hear from the person (Zimmerman) that was supposedly protecting himself (as the aggressor) for the charges to be considered unjust.

Update from 7/5 – Zimmerman’s 2nd Bail Set at $1 Million by Judge Lester:$1000000/

I admittedly don’t get and/or follow law but another bail amount being set for Zimmerman after everything that’s known to date is absolutely ludicrous.

Without being said, the State of Florida has already proved their general judicial incompetence during Casey Anthony’s trial but is the entire judicial system in the US completely messed up or just Florida (and/or presumably most of the deep south)?

Thank you, CommonSenseForTheChange.

Judge Kenneth Lester’s court order:

It was mentioned on twitter that the 2nd bail amount may have been set by Judge Lester to avoid the possibility of a higher court overturning the case.

Again, I’m no regular follower of the seemingly warped judicial system but if true, this explanation finally makes some sort of sense.

Update from 7/5 – Zimmerman’s Legal Team Pleads for Donations:

This is what our judicial system has come to?

And, O’Mara states Zimmerman isn’t a danger to society. Hmmmm. Trayvon Martin, the officer he punched at a bar, his ex-fiancée, those that hired him as party security, and his doctor’s records definitely noted a history of Zimmerman’s aggression.

Update from 7/6 – Zimmerman Out of Jail Again:

Judge Lester better hope Zimmerman can keep his thoroughly documented – even in medical reports – mood swings under control over the next year or so until the trial. Otherwise, Lester and O’Mara will have a lot of explaining to do.

Also, if her husband had mood swings caused by Vyvanse (see bottom of Zimmerman’s doctor’s report) during their time together, Shellie Zimmerman will have lied under oath…again.

Lastly, from the above BBC link:

“The racially charged Trayvon Martin case has divided the US.”

I highly disagree. If you thoroughly look into what happened during Trayvon’s final 30 minutes or so, there’s no divide…at all.

Update from 8/30 – Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case:

Thank you, CommonSenseForChange and willisnewtown.

The above posting is the 3rd of 5 postings that includes updates regarding the Trayvon Martin – George Zimmerman shooting. The others can be found here…

1 of 5…

2 of 5…

4 of 5…

5 of 5…

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

172 thoughts on “Recapping George Zimmerman’s 2nd Bond Hearing

  1. Here’s another bit about what RZ Sr. stated:

    RZ is saying he’s heard is son scream like that before…when they lived in Virginia…you know, when GZ was 18 and under. 😀 Get my point?

    • “Robert Zimmerman is saying he’s heard is son scream like that before…when they lived in Virginia…you know, when GZ was 18 and under.”

      Excellent point — the last time Robert Zimmerman likely heard his son scream like what’s heard during the 911 tape is when George was living under his roof and under the age of 18…like Trayvon.

      Wow, I hope De la Rionda brings this up.

      • I doubt he’s ever heard his son scream for his life, but, RZ’s words can and will be used against GZ! RZ and FT just don’t get that the more they talk, the worse they make things! Keep talking, please!

  2. Also, the jury is going to hear Austin, Mary, Selma, and Teacher all say they believed it was a younger person. It’s not proof, but the more people saying it sounded like a kid, the better.

  3. All the external facts are .irrelavant. zimmerman followed martin for no reason and killed him in cold blood. Who wouldn’t defend themself if being followed by a .stanger. personally I think after. Seeing .zimmerman the night .if the shooting and seeing no damage to .his face that he hit himself. And if. He had .gone to the hospital the night of the shooting he would have a problem

    • Yeah, I’m not sure what was up with O’mara in court today…He seemed to me to be rambling and presenting into evidence stuff that’s already been released in discovery and looked at by everyone, it seems, but him! Presenting as evidence W6 initial statement, when the witness recanted soon after giving it. Does he not have competent people on his staff to make sure he’s current in what he’s presenting and speaking about in court?! Even in his interviews following the hearing he’s citing it as proof of GZ fearing for his life. He needs to spend some time while waiting on the Judges ruling to read through that evidence.

      • Maybe he’s silly enough to think the JUDGE doesn’t ever see TV?

        Sure he’d probably try not to get too involved in gossip about a case he’s trying, but it’d be hard for him to not see the headlines sometimes. And “witnesses change stories” was a major story for a while.

      • @Tina –

        ” Does he not have competent people on his staff to make sure he’s current in what he’s presenting and speaking about in court?! ”

        That seems to come second to making sure he’s meeting his media interview schedule and making sure he begs for more money in each of those interviews — now that he admits he’s aware of them.

      • @aussie –

        “Presenting as evidence W6 initial statement, when the witness recanted soon after giving it. Does he not have competent people on his staff to make sure he’s current in what he’s presenting and speaking about in court?! Even in his interviews”

        No time for analyzing the evidence or even reviewing it. But he put forth the silly argument that he was introducing the 7-11 tape because the media presented younger pics of Trayvon Martin (a HUGE issue with the pro-killing-of-black-teens-is-justifiable segment of the population). No need to proof statements or review when dog-whistling nets more donations and future business/profits.

      • You said does O’mara not have competent people on his staff? most likely he is trying to keep cost to him at a minimum, he wants that money in the paypal account. O’mara can’t do anything but shuck and jive and keep saying but my client has injuries, looky looky!!! the first time he did that the crowd went wild, they were saying that O’mara is smart!! he just blew prosecutions case out of the water. Now it is O’mara is intentionally sinking his client nevermind Zimmerman sinking his own ship, the judge is campaigning and needs to be disbarred, the black people like Al and Jesse keep stirring the pot, Angela Corey is a who?e and should be brought up on charges, Serno had it out for Zimmerman because of what he said about Spd. Lord have mercy these people are rediculous. How about this!, Angela Corey brought him up on charges because he needed to be, evidence pointed to his guilt!! Maybe O’mara wants to be declared imcompetent, if he is declared that during the trial then George could have a new one but then again if he was declared now, O’mara could go and save face, possibly stand a chance of getting people to forget he even tried to represent the jerk. I bet that father is dictating the whole thing, now O’mara you get your arse in that court room and jibber jabber so my son can come home. I still want to know why Zimmermans brother is not on the witness list, am I wrong? external facts do matter in this case where just about every civil rights, Martin was entitled to have been broken. Zimmerman has been bent over backwards for, he remained free longer than any of us would have after killing someone. I said back in March that I don’t care what race you are you would not have gotten the treatment he has gotten unless you had connections.

  4. I’ve been keeping up with this blog for sometime now. First off, I want to say you all have done an awesome job of dissecting the facts and keeping up with all the current information. WhooHoo!!

    Secondly, I watched the bail hearing in its entirety today. Two things that jumped out at me was why didn’t the state jump on the chance to ask the firefighter if those wounds could have been caused by something other than blunt force? Like maybe trees or bushes? I have a hard time believing that Trayvon bashed Z’s head against the concrete AFTER he broke/fractured his nose. There is little chance that a person could grab someone’s bloodied head (which also ALREADY has a bloodied nose), smother them, beat them tirelessly, and not have not one drop of blood on their hands. How does that happen?

    Correct me if I am wrong but I thought I heard testimony suggesting Z went to work on 2/27 and was advised to go to his primary doctor for clearance. Only then did he seek clearance to go back to work. Furthermore, O’Mara, by his own admission, stated that Z told him about the money AFTER he told Z he needed to taper down his internet presence. SO that means to me that Z wasn’t going to bring it up until O’Mara did first. I bet he thought “oh crap! he is gonna ask about it!” Dead giveaway he was trying to be deceitful in my book.

    I just want to throw something out there for consideration. Suppose Z is the one yelling for help… but not yelling because he is getting beat to a near death experience but yelling for someone to help him detain Trayvon? He sees there is no way to overpower him and he is not letting this one “get away” so he shoots him? Maybe not Murder 2 exactly but it just something I thought about. On the flip side and another thing that has been bugging is the fact Z said he heard a door open. If he was yelling so loud and trying to stay conscious, how would he hear that? Only a perp would hear something like that and only because they are LISTENING for it.. they are afraid someone is coming and will catch them in the act..

    Sorry for the long post.. just some thoughts of mine 🙂

    • “There is little chance that a person could grab someone’s bloodied head (which also ALREADY has a bloodied nose), smother them, beat them tirelessly, and not have not one drop of blood on their hands. How does that happen?”

      Thank you for following the blog and commenting. I’ve wondered the same exact thing. 40-45% of Zimmerman’s face/head but none of his DNA on Trayvon’s hands?

      • I heard TM had some GZ blood on him, but not on the lower cuffs of his shirt/sweatshirt or hoodie, and there was none of GZ’s under TM’s nails. GZ supporters will argue TM’s hands weren’t swabbed, but if there was clear blood evidence on his hands, why wouldn’t they be swabbed? Does anyone know for certain if they were or were not swabbed, or if there was a report stating TM had blood on his hands?

        I don’t know why the prosecution doesn’t jump up and confront them with certain things, such as if the injuries could have been caused by something else. Maybe they don’t want to give O’Mara too much info of where they are going with their case. That’s my best guess. Hold your cards close, and keep a good poker face!

      • Not to mention, if GZ face was so bloody (45%, according to EMT) wouldn’t Trayvon have transfered some, if not all, to GZ’s clothing??? Even if he did, as GZ states, attempt to reach for the gun, wouldn’t that mean he was no longer using BOTH hands to smother, head bash poor GZ with?! Wasn’t it at that point he claims to have ‘pinched/pinned’ his arm to prevent Trayvon from getting to the gun. I find it hard to believe that Trayvon’s hands were limited only to GZ’s head!

      • Thank you for the link, NLME. It’s hard to keep up with and keep track of all the info.

        Thank you, and great job, princss6.

    • MsUnderstood, i’ve said the exact same thing about perhaps GZ yelling for help to detain Trayvon. Like help me hold this guy. Or maybe he was yelling because he knew the police would be there soon, expecting that they would hear his screams and find his location away from his truck. I think he shot when he thought Trayvon was going to get away too. Of course i don’t know, it could be Trayvon or it could even be both. But he wasn’t yelling out of fear thats for sure, he did the pursuing and he had the gun. I hope his bond request is rejected.

      • I think George was the one saying shut the fuck up. I think when Trayvon began screaming, George may have realized he made a mistake.

      • @Amsterdam

        I think GZ was the one telling TM to “shut the fuck up,” too, but not because he knew he made a mistake. I don’t think that registered in GZ’s mind at that point. I think it’s more likely that when TM fought back and started screaming that GZ thought this little fucking punk criminal thought he was so tough, but now I caught him, and now he wants me to let him go. I think the shut the fuck up was more along the lines of he didn’t want to hear it, and that TM was going to shut the fuck up and be still til the cops came, and when he didn’t, GZ thought RESISTING! I think he knew he done fucked up when he frisked TM, but didn’t find anything on him, and then the two women walked out to ask him what was going on. THAT’S when he knew…the kid was dead and had nothing on him then the two women and others started coming out, and GZ knew at least someone heard…and possibly saw…what had happened.

        GZ knew others heard those screams. He knew he had to say they were his. There was no one to dispute him. He thought it’d be so easy to get away with killing a black teen then crying foul. Too bad for GZ those screams were recorded.

      • @question everything trust no one

        What you hear him say in the video does back up what you are saying. I’m sure part of the reason was his frustration with Trayvon not submitting to his authority. On the other hand, the dispatcher had told him 6 minutes before he shot Trayvon, that an officer was on his way. He shot him right after John said he was going to call 911. So he knew police would be on scene any minute. He may have realized that having an innocent person at gunpoint after chasing him, and this person being able to tell the story to the police, would almost certainly end any dreams he may have had of becoming a police officer.

      • I also wonder if he did get a call back alerting him that police were close. I have often questioned why you would shoot someone *knowing* you had called police AND someone else was calling police. I question John’s account, but if it is correct that he heard the shot as he was going upstairs, I think that leads support to what you are saying. He had called non-emergency, which can take several minutes to respond, but John was calling 911. He could have panicked. I have often wondered if TM did try to tell GZ who he was and what he was doing in the community.

      • Anything George would have said would be whispered and not heard. Trayvon Martin was the one screaming as George Zimmerman was whispering sweet “i’m going to kill you” and other threats in Trayvon’s ear. Trayvon was the one screaming as psycho Zimmerman the liar was whispering his threats and claiming everyone of his victim’s actions, motions and utterances as his own.

        Zimmerman said in his police interviews that it was Trayvon Martin that said “ow ow” after he was shot, even though the paramedic said it was Zimmerman that said “ow ow” as she attempted to clean his “dried blood” from his head wounds (scabbed over wounds?).

        To get to the truth, reverse Zimmerman’s utterances and attribute them to Trayvon Martin and visa versa.

  5. GZ says TM says:

    1. Before shot – Yo, you got a problem, homey?
    2. Before shot – Now you do!
    3. Before shot – Shut the fuck up!
    4. Before shot – You’re gonna die tonight, mother fucker!
    5. After shot – You got me/You got it!
    6. After shot – OwOw
    7. After shot – Cursing

    Apparently, TM was really chatty before and after the shot, but not so much as a peep when GZ pins his hand, grabs the 9mm, and points it at TM.

    GZ is still shouting for help as he shoots. If you’re going to shoot someone, why are you still yelling for help?

    TM instead of trying to fight for the gun goes back to beating GZ’s head. Who is going to see someone grab their gun, but not try to grab it, or wrestle the person’s arm away from aiming it at them if capable?

    GZ screams as he shoots, but the kid is still alive and resisting him, but no more of the same voice calls out for help. You’re going to scream through the shot, but you’re not going to continue to get people to come help you considering you’re supposedly very badly injured, and the person is still fighting?

    Also, if you’re trying to sit up, and your head is being slammed down into concrete, at some point you are going to learn to roll the person off of you to get on top rather than try to sit up risking your head being slammed again.

    These are just things I thought of while listening to/watching the bond hearing. It makes me wonder how the defense is going to wiggle around questions like these.

    Also, contact shot to the chest fired at hip level…I’m sure Trayvon was kind enough to wiggle his body down and over, so GZ could get the perfect front to back shot up close to the chest from that angle. TM also reanimated and went to go wash his hands, which is why GZ’s blood just isn’t there.

    Okay, I’m feeling sassy, lol.

    How are the defense going to argue these points and dispute the timeline?

    • “How are the defense going to argue these points and dispute the timeline?”

      Several possibilities here:

      a. Even if GZ can be proved to be the biggest liar in FL since Casey Anthony, that doesn’t mean the State can prove he wasn’t in fear for his life.

      b. Never underestimate the possibility of arrogant prosecutors thinking they have the case in the bag and screwing it up. In all the interviews, Corey’s forces are focused on Who and What, not Where and When. O’Mara may be hoping they don’t introduce the timeline material, or don’t present it effectively. It is rather complicated, and if the prosecution imagines they don’t need it, they might not want to risk befuddling the jury. (Which would be a mistake, IMHO).

      c. O’Mara’s weak performance at the bond hearing could be a form of legal rope-a-dope. Not showing his hand. Lulling the prosecution into false confidence. At this point he might reason the State already has GZ on obstruction, so it doesn’t matter that much if he gets bond, because he’s going to be doing some time anyway…

      d. O’Mara may realize he’s up against the wall with his client’s very sketchy story. But his job is still to provide the best defense possible. Even if that winds up being weak, he has to do what he can for our legal system to work. I’m sure he’s still trying to parse all the discovery info himself. He could just be laying back, letting the cash from the GZ Legal Defense fund flow into his retirement account, waiting and hoping the prosecution makes a fatal mistake. I wonder when Johnny Cochran realized that the introduction of the gloves as evidence in the O.J. trial was going to act as the defining trope of the police and prosecution errors. Probably not until during the trial itself. He was hanging in there, with a not so compelling case relying on complicated scientific challenges to the States forensics, when Marcia Clark handed him Mark Furhman, and “If the gloves don’t fit, you must acquit.” So, if I were Ms. Corey, I would be very careful of Mr. O’Mara, who I’m guessing is smart enough to turn any mistake at trial into GZ’s advantage. And along these lines Bernie de la Rionda does not fill me with confidence. he strikes me as overly-aggressive and under informed. How ANYONE could let DeeDee’s “a couple minutes later” at the key juncture of her narrative go by without further inquiry just boggles my mind.

      • @whonoze –

        “a. Even if GZ can be proved to be the biggest liar in FL since Casey Anthony, that doesn’t mean the State can prove he wasn’t in fear for his life.”

        The State is proving that Zimmerman is the one who put his own fears in motion and no reasonable person would have done so and that is based on what Zimmerman himself has said and the evidence. The law doesn’t cover vigilantes.

        Been meaning to mention that I also don’t agree with your analysis of DeeDee as a witness. I found everything DeeDee said to be consistent and credible. She’s never indicated any propensity towards lying in her interview, imo.

        “You could say that” means she accepted the paraphrasing of what she heard, not ok, I’ll say that if you need me to. Please expand on why you think DeeDee loses credibility for accepting the investigator’s paraphrasing of events.

        She was also interviewed another time and mentioned that Trayvon Martin said this guy was getting close to him and this occurred after Trayvon Martin had lost Zimmerman and Trayvon was near his dad’s home.

      • You have a number of good points here. While I think GZ is guilty as hell, of at least manslaughter, I enjoy looking at this from both sides of the case. I don’t believe either side has this in the bag at this point. I think what O’Mara has to go on is fairly weak, BUT I think there’s still strong arguments he can make. This is a largely circumstantial case, so it could go either way, but they need to play their cards/hand right.

        The prosecution NEEDS that timeline, BAD. That timeline is key. That’s definitely something they better be working on being able to present in a clear/concise manner. It needs to be simplified, so that it is easy to follow for the common person, yet have it show the important points. I think the reward is greater than the risk. It would be huge to leave this out.

        The prosecution has largely been focusing on the information from their affidavit. I don’t think they want to give too much of their case out too soon. I agree BDLR seems a bit ill prepared at times. I can’t believe he didn’t follow up on that part of DeeDee’s statement. I was definitely, and still am, face palming at that. Does he not think it matters what TM was saying/doing in that time period? He asked if at any point did TM say anything about going to confront this guy, so he may argue it doesn’t matter what he said or where he was in that time frame because at no point is there an indication that he had intent to go after this guy, and that from what DeeDee heard it was TM who was followed on foot and then physically confronted, BUT STILL…that is not something he should have left untouched and open for the defense to attack in deposition then in court.

        I agree in regards to BDLR giving the aggressive impression. He needs to be careful not to cross the line into overly antagonistic territory. I’d say O’Mara needs to watch himself, too. He’s soft spoken, but he gets a little melodramatic at times, which comes across as weak. I think straight up saying TM died because of his on doing was a bad move. Word to O’Mara, tread softly with DeeDee, but get your point across.

      • see i loved Bernies passion. I didn’t see him as aggressive, i saw someone who had just listened to a whole lot of crap by the defence and wasn’t having any it. I liked that he seemed to believe in what he was doing, while O’Mara was a stuttering mess who didn’t seem to know what point he was trying to get accross. Bernie was on the ball as far as the finances were concerned, i don’t think he could have been prepared for anything else because it’s a bond hearing not a trial. I believed the prosecution, i think they really are fighting for Trayvon where as O’Mara is just doing his job and doesn’t have much to work with.

      • There is always a ram in the bush, First off, prosecution knew they had to make sure that every I was dotted and every T was crossed when it came to evidence and proven a case. Had they thought it was manslaughter and did not feel they could prove murder 2, then they would have charged as such. No one was screaming for what to charge Zimmerman with they just wanted him to take responsibility for his actions and for a jury to see and decided. The family needs closure, simply telling them that their son was walking home and accosted someone doesn’t sound right to any parent. How can you see a young man at 7-11 buying not stealing his items. You don’t see him loitering around using curse words, harrassing other customers of acting all weird, NO!! you don’t see that. Someone has to answer to something so peculiar as this. I wouldn’t let my child be shot in his heart, die almost in his backyard and then have the police say, well umm hummm ummm, he ahh ahh was shot and killed after hitting a man from the neighborhood in the face. You bet you would tell me wh?, what did this man say started this?, Who is this man in the first place? and Why did he have to shoot my son dead instead of shoot him in the leg to wound him or something, better yet, why did he have to shoot? I think too many people have fallen for O’mara’s song and dance, the case is weak the case is weak, all the while feeding us all the same junk from a few months ago, he was talking big without saying nothing at all!! Prosecution has the burden of proof, and just because prosecution didn’t play their game at the bond hearing doesn’t mean jack. Don’t forget it is odd to have a mini trial at the bond hearing, really the investigator did not have to have any bright answers, they probably thought well let him have bail in which they felt he would get anyway and save our aces. They have to give over evidence to the defense they don’t have to tell them what they ate for lunch. Let Omara figure it out for himself. I think if Omara was so smart he would stop wasting his time pandering to racist, and overly pro Zimmerman supporters for money. What attorney starts out pro bono then when he finds out his client could be a cash cow, decideds oh I can charge in the millions. We all heard him say that George is a man of meager means. Why wouldn’t his family pay for him a attorney if they thought they were too good for public defender, the things that are happening in this case are a bit unorthodox and may find O’mara in a bind with the bar. He knows he has to be careful and can’t say he himself has the ability to touch the money, he has to friend up with George, rub his back, knock the dandruff off his shoulder because that is George’s money. No one can take it from him. O’mara is good at blaming everything on fear and confusion, this will be the defenses stand point. He is confused and anxious because he suffers from ADHD and it hinders his memory. He is scared of people wanting to track him down and kill him like he did Martin. He has said himself that Zimmerman knows he has tainted his reputation, and his credibility is damaged. O’mara does not have the burden that prosecution has but he for darn sure can’t sit back with his feet up during trial. He has a client that he can’t really put on the stand. He knows George is lieing and this is why at the 2nd bond hearing he wanted to take the judge to the back and talk with him,REALLY?? he will have to get all the black children George mentored, he will have to find the black friend who was rallying for him, he will have to have Taaffe who in itself is scary. O’mara has got to let that father take the stand to tell his version of the events and he can not say he didn’t mean to say or was mistaken about, that will not work. I see damagind information coming out and I believe it to be direct evidence. Remember O’mara is fighting hard to keep some things as secret, remember he said that people will get the wrong idea about his client. The charge is not related to the racial hostility, people have calmed down and stopped rallying since his arrest, they are having peaceful dinners in support of Martin and his family. Judge Lester said himself that all the rally’s were peaceful. We must not forget that Serino the lead detective was suspicious and knw he was lieing, he even lied on the non emergency worker by saying in the ride over to the scene that he asked him to go find an address, really? I didn’t hear that George. I know the prosecution has to fill in the gaps but what if they have and I am sure they have. We haven’t seen all the evidence and we still won’t know what all of it means to the prosecution. We are Nancy Drew and they are the real crime solvers, they will have experts, they have combed and combed, they will also have FBI information as well. Once they establish Zimmerman as a liar all by itself then the flood gates will open. O’mara had Zimmerman waive his right to a speedy trial, it was not due to controversy, he has to find a way to defend his client. Where others can over look what started the so called fight, the jury has duty to look at hte whole picture. I would ask them in my closing argument to ask themselves why would someone see a person acting suspicious, putting his hand in his waist band as to show that he has something to hurt you with, decided without prompting to get out of his car? remember no one asked him to get out of the car. He only admitted to getting out and following after the non emergency personnel asked him was he following, even after the non emergency worker says well we don’t need you to do that, knowing that this person could be dangerous, you only acknowledge by saying “ok”, this is affirmative only in admitting he was following and not stopping. I would ask the jury to ask yourself, when the young man ran, why did Zim not just sit at the club house where he knew that he was safe away from Martin? He has the burden of being responsible, #1 as an adult and #2 as a responsible gun owner. I can see a lot to work with seeing as I said before the entire picture has to be looked at and not just the fight in which no one actually saw. Bottom line is he went through a lot of trouble to have his life put in jeopardy, Zimmerman will have to testify and I don’t see that happening. If he does not the jury will be curious as to why, don’t think for one minute that they won’t have props to go along with his reenactment video as well.

    • QETNO,

      for the “real” version of how the shooting went, listen to the Serino Tape 2 around the 27 minute mark. He didn’t want to shoot his own hand he was holding Trayvon’s arm with, so he aimed around his hand.

      • Exactly! How’d that happen? Was Trayvon yelling for help during this “hand-arm-holding” event?

      • Hm, two hands on TM before shooting him, huh…

        So, he had control of TM, and a gun, but still had to shoot? Makes perfect sense!

        Thanks for pointing out that part to me.

      • GZ was doing the screaming, remember?

        When Trayvon let go his mouth he stopped screaming so he wouldn’t put it back on again, grabbed his wrist and shot him. Apparently he was screaming while the hand was on his mouth, not quite sure how he did that. But he says he stopped when the hand came off.

  6. NLME: I don’t understand the pull-quote. What’s a reverse Arthur (or a regular Arthur)? Who is the judge talking to, and what is he talking about?

    • An Arthur Hearing – a specialized bond hearing for defendants charged with non-bondable offenses – serves two purposes. On one hand, the main objective is to get a bond for your client so he or she can get out of jail. On the other hand, it is a crucial discovery device that can expose weaknesses in the state’s case…reverse Arthur, which is what O’Mara attempted at 6/29 hearing.

    • @Tina –

      What i don’t get is why, if it only applies to non-bondable offenses, Arthur would be required for this bondable offense. Basically, I think the issue is not even relevant, but I don’t know. The issue is the Zimmerman’s lying in the court for a reduced bond — perhaps to match Zimmerman’s, his family’s and O’Mara’s belief that black teen lives aren’t as important or valued as little white girls that get murdered. Casey Anthony’s case required a $500K bond, right? George Zimmerman discussed getting a $15 bond, and if more, he instructed his wife not to pay it.

      • CommonSense

        GZs 2nd degree murder charge is ‘non-bondable’. It’s up to the judge’s discretion to issue a bond. Hence, the reason for the 1st bond (Arthur) hearing. Because of him and SheLie misleading the court, he’s before the judge a 2nd time, and O’Mara took the opportunity to attempt to show that the state has a weak case…but he failed at that using weak evidence and witnessess.

        I didn’t follow CA’s case…so don’t know what her bond was.

    • I went back to see the Taaffe after you asked. Yes I did see him sitting in the back. He seemed to be watching and waiting to chat with the Martins. Don’t know what to make of it.

    • I wonder about that guy. Lots of speculation surrounds him. Is that him and GZ’s DAD loitering around the Ford truck parked at the cut thru in the re-enactment tape? The NYt reported the father was present at the video walk thru “reenactment, ” watching from a distance.

  7. The 45% blood was all AFTER Trayvon died. So it wouldn’t have gotten onto him.

    First of all, a drop of blood goes a long way when mixed with water. Hold a cut finger under a tap and in a few seconds you have a whole basin full of “blood”.

    Secondly, GZ as seen by witnesses walking around HOLDING HIS HEAD. Accidentally or otherwise, this would spread around, on his wet head, whatever blood there was from the scratches (being generous here and allowing that the scratches were already there).

    Thirdly he’d have felt his hurting nose and spread some blood around that way, too. About the same time he asked the witness with the torch “is there blood on my face?”

    None of this nose blood could have gotten onto Trayvon because the nose injury came from the GUN KICKING BACK.

    Oh actually, when the first witness took the photo of the back of his head, there were only some dribbles of blood. So if they were more all-over when the EMT saw him, it could have been spread around AFTER the photo.

    Trayvon’s left cuff and an unspecified spot on his hoodie contained spots of blood for which the DNA could not be identified.

    • @Aussie –

      “The 45% blood was all AFTER Trayvon died. So it wouldn’t have gotten onto him.”

      Exactly. I agree with everything you said above. It’s been what I’ve thought all along.

      In addition to that, an explanation for Trayvon Martin not having blood on his hands is definitely found in the fact that Zimmerman’s blood injuries occurred AFTER he moved out of reach of Trayvon Martin’s dead body.

      He asked the witness if there was blood on his face AFTER he’d walked towards the tee and had been observed by other witnesses north and south placing his hands on his head. Incidentally, the blood, dried, scabbed over and otherwise all shows a pattern indicating Zimmerman was leaning over Trayvon and/or standing. There are no smudges to the blood except what would match Zimmerman’s smearing while his hand was on top of his head before the SFD EMT cleaned his hands off.

      There was NO DNA evidence that Trayvon Martin ever had his hands on Zimmerman’s head, mouth or nose. None! George has his own blood all over himself and it could have gotten there in a multitude of ways.

      All evidence points to Zimmerman’s blood on himself because he “did what he did” (at least that’s what Zimmerman’s daddy calls the murder of the unarmed teen).

      • The black flashlight was sent to the lab for blood analysis. I couldn;t find a labreport on the results. Any ideas about that?

    • I think Zimmerman is claiming that Trayvon broke is nose with the first punch, so I’m gonna need some blood on his hands as he subsequently covers GZ’s mouth and nose

      • “I think Zimmerman is claiming that Trayvon broke is nose with the first punch, so I’m gonna need some blood on his hands as he subsequently covers GZ’s mouth and nose.”

        Good point.

  8. @NLME
    Have questions for ya. In the first discovery dump they listed witnesses from number 1-22. But they held back interviews from witnesses 4, 7, and 10. I know they were interviewed by Officer T. Smith on 2/26/12 along with many others from the second discovery dump page three. I was told discovery is only for the evidence they plan to use to prove the case, we’re not entitled to see the information unless they will use it to make their case. Which doesn’t make sense to me, if they listed it on the first dump and the second dump, wouldn’t that mean the state may use some or all of the discovery and by law are turning it over to the defense? In turn once the defense gets it they have thirty days to review and then the public may see it? Or Iam wrong on that.
    I have for some time been waiting for those three witnesses statements. My curiosity has increased more then ever when O’mara stated in the bond hearing, that the state has said they have a witness stating they saw his client challenging him. In other words, I took O’mara carefully chosen words to mean the state has a witness saying GZ confronted TM. He also said that if that was true it wasn’t included in the discovery and that maybe the state was just saying things. I found the state quiet as they should be, and did not answer O’mara. He needs to do his own work. He couldn’t even keep the witness numbers straight in the hearing. Which was also pointed out by another commentator on this blog. So my question, even though Officer Smith interviewed these witnesses, and the state put them in the first and now again in the second dump(6/14/12) do we get to see the information around the middle of July?
    Maybe I’m just reading too much into those three. They might help the case, or maybe have no vlaue. Who knows…..

    second discovery dump information I am referring to is on page three
    under SAO-4 Memos (interviews) (copies attached)

  9. Don’t fall into groupthink territory here. The prosecution has to prove in court that they more or less KNOW what was in GZ’s mind and that he killed Trayvon in cold blood. I think it’s already in the bag that they can prove he chased him in his car, and ran after him after he exited the car – and that he lied about both of these things. But I don’t YET know how they prove the rest – what happened in the missing minutes and what happened at the end. The witnesses are so thin on this stuff at the end.

    GZ is not a credible person. He’s caught on video tape telling the cops with a perfectly reasonable tone of voice and body language that he was more or less DIRECTED to move his car from the clubhouse to around the bend, and then that TM doubled back and circled his car as though he were spoiling for a fight – an action that NEVER happened and George HIMSELF is the one who points out the contradiction when confronted finally with the 311 call recording. The prosecution has to extend this guilt for four more minutes without proof as strong as they have here.

    I think this means he’d be destroyed if he takes the stand, but IANAL. If he doesn’t take the stand, what’s left is his contradictory statements to police.

    But the screaming is going to be a wash – both sides will argue it’s their guy, and in the end the FBI chimes in that no one can tell for sure with science. I think the prosecution has to argue this point to get to the brink of

    And all this business about the gun being drawn a certain way or not is speculative too.

    The physical altercation started the way the non credible person says it did, or it didn’t. I think it’s pretty clear that it DID start with a punch or a lunge by GZ to detain the teen, but that the distance covered is the strongest thing the prosecution can highlight. GZ claims mostly that he was sucker punched to the ground, sometimes falling backwards, even, which is a lot more credible than the “stumbling” he does in the re-enactment video, that leads him only part way to where the body was found. The prosecution can raise a lot of doubt about GZ’s account of how the fight moved – what was TM doing the whole time they moved so far? And is a jury to believe GZ NEVER tried to detain the youth during this migration?

    But they still have to get to proving GZ had a depraved mind when he killed Trayvon. Where’s that last yard, the final plank of the bridge they are building? Is it W2? Because that’s a shaky bridge.

    BdlR said at the bond hearing they had multiple witnesses to a chase. He mentioned a witness to the foot chase at the first bond hearing too, but it seemed like just one. Who are W4 W7 and W10? Did one or more of them see a chase? Is he running a bluff? If so, it’s a strong one. GZ risks everything to call it.

    Keep in mind the conditions still exist that whatever the defendant says can and will be used against him. At the first bond hearing he was asked if his statements had inconsistencies and contradictions. He said “absolutely not.”

    So not only do they have him lying to investigators, they basically have him lying under oath in front of the judge, too.

    All that, and more, but where if the final push into the end zone for the prosecution? What’s the closing line of the closing argument?

    • “But they still have to get to proving GZ had a depraved mind when he killed Trayvon. Where’s that last yard, the final plank of the bridge they are building? Is it W2? Because that’s a shaky bridge.”

      It’s hard to say the guy is a total liar but we have to believe what he says.

      Still, in the Serino interview Tape 2 at 27 min mark he states
      * he had Trayvon’s wrist gripped in one hand
      * had time to consider not wanting to shoot his own hand
      * carefully aimed around his own hand before shooting him

      In other words shot him at a time he had full control of the situation – physically holding someone at gunpoint. Where’s the self defence in that?

      • “In other words shot him at a time he had full control of the situation – physically holding someone at gunpoint. Where’s the self defence in that?”


        Zimmerman had several options. Biting – for example – doesn’t give you 20+ years behind bars (though it probably would have made Zimmerman the laughing stock around the Sanford PD).

  10. NLME, what makes you think they found something to indicate GZ consumed alcohol or possessed a firearm while out of jail? Hm, think the state could have found something in his bank statements that indicated he purchased/may have consumed alcohol? I’m not sure what they could have found. Do they test his BAC while out on bond? I wonder where his wife kept her firearm.

    We still haven’t seen what was on that security vid from M&I Bank… I’m curious to know what’s on that, too!

    I’m hoping tomorrow will produce a headline that states no bond for GZ. He has the right to a bond hearing, and reasonable bond, if bond is to be granted, but he already had that chance, and chose to prove he lies for his own benefit. No one owes him a damn bond. These are M2 charges! The judge shouldn’t give a shit if GZ believes it’s SD. I’m pretty sure most criminals believe they aren’t guilty! The state has a clear, strong case. GZ proves he has no respect for authority or the law. He further proves this every time he thinks he’s owed special treatment. He has no ties to the community at this point. He has no reason to stick around if this looks like it’s not going his way. He’s not attending school. He’s not working. He’s not volunteering. He’s not an important figure in the community. It’s clear his family will back him and lie. They show no respect for the law, either. His father can’t even act like a respectable, civil person on the stand. Who is there to hold GZ accountable? NO ONE. He hid money and kept a valid passport. All this mess spells out FLIGHT RISK!

    • I’m only guessing since Bernie de la Rionda (I believe) called the probation officer. I didn’t hear half of what was asked of him though (thank you, TruTV) so I may have missed the significance of calling the probation officer to the stand.

    • @qetno –

      “These are M2 charges! The judge shouldn’t give a shit if GZ believes it’s SD. I’m pretty sure most criminals believe they aren’t guilty! The state has a clear, strong case. GZ proves he has no respect for authority or the law. He further proves this every time he thinks he’s owed special treatment. He has no ties to the community at this point. He has no reason to stick around if this looks like it’s not going his way. He’s not attending school. He’s not working. He’s not volunteering. He’s not an important figure in the community. It’s clear his family will back him and lie. They show no respect for the law, either. His father can’t even act like a respectable, civil person on the stand. Who is there to hold GZ accountable? NO ONE. He hid money and kept a valid passport. All this mess spells out FLIGHT RISK!”

      On point!


      “We still haven’t seen what was on that security vid from M&I Bank… I’m curious to know what’s on that, too!”

      Anxiously awaiting the release of the M&I. AND WHERE’S THE EVIDENCE GEORGE ZIMMERMAN HAD A WALLET (drivers license) WHILE STALKING A MINOR BY CAR? Who goes to the grocery store without a wallet/money/credit card/ID?

  11. I feel like a blog stalker, lol. Oy. BUT…did you, or anyone else, find it kind of weird/interesting when BDLR asked RZ something about there only being one voice on the recording?

    • I noticed that too. I think Bernie de la Rionda was trying to get Robert Zimmerman to admit the voice heard didn’t unequivocally sound like his son’s (as George has already openly admitted).

      • I’m still holding out hope that they identified two voices on that tape, and possibly a determination of some of what was being said. I wonder why we haven’t heard from the mother in open court to say that it’s her son’s voice. She’s probably not as convincing of a liar.

      • i thought they were just talking about jeremy in the background, but maybe they meant in the confrontation outside. I wonder if they have determined what was being yelled…DON’T MOOOVE or DON’T SHOOOT.

    • Oh, I heard it. BDLR is driving home the point that we didn’t hear any “shut the F up”, “you’re gonna die tonight, MF” or “you got me/it” noises” that Zimmerman claimed Trayon Martin said. I think it goes to yet another of Zimmerman’s lies about what happened.

  12. HOW DID THE FIGHT MIGRATE SO FAR? WItnesses seem to have a consensus and the scattered debris also suggests the altercation moved in a southernly direction from somewhere near the T to John’s back yard. What can the prosecution present at trial to say GZ tried to restrain TM, or that GZ was the initial aggressor, or that he did something to provoke TM’s alleged assault on GZ?

    On the ONE SPECIFIC POINT of who started the physical aspect of the altercation, I made a quick compilation of statements GZ makes to SPD>

    This is all GZ has said about the crucial issue of who started the fight and how it became physical. Keep in mind that the distance from the shell casing to the spot where GZ claims in the video re-enectment is around 50 feet. There are objects scattered over 45 feet apart, and none are up on the cut thru sidewalk. All seem to lead towards TM’s house, and away from GZ’s car. Is GZ telling the truth about how the fight started or not?

    first interview 26 FEB part one GZ and Singleton (female investigator)

    “I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
    “as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
    “and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”

    Singleton: and thats when he slugged you
    GZ: He just hit me

    Singleton: He struck you in the nose first?
    GZ: Yes m’am
    S: And that’s what knocked you down?
    GZ: Yes m’am

    part two – GZ and Singleton, with a map
    Singleton: where do you end up when you guys are on the ground and after all this has happened?
    GZ :He punched me in the face, and i fell backwards and i don’t even know where i ended up.
    S: You just know you are somewhere in this area?
    GZ: Yes m’am

    Audio Recorded Interview with Investigator Serino of Sanford Police Department on February 27 (12:05 AM)

    (Serino seems to be intentionally going over it fast)

    GZ: When he came up to me he … and then he punched me in the face
    Serino: he punched, you fell?
    GZ: Yes sir


    stress test account

    (partial notes, not a transcript)
    and i went to go for my phone instinctively
    and call 911
    jacket pocket
    and i reached and i was looking (for my phone, wrong pocket)
    and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up (on top)

    In chronological order , the reenactment comes here and GZ says he stumbled, and fended off TM as he walks half the distance to where the body was found. This seems to be the only time he recalls the “stumbling” or makes any mention of not being seemingly knocked to the ground by a sucker punch that happens in basically one spot.

    first of three interviews after re-enactment
    not mentioned specifically

    second after reenactment
    not mentioned specifically

    not mentioned specifically

    GIven all this, I’m not sure the original investigative team had full knowledge of all the inconsistencies at the time of the post-re-enactment interviews. They confront him with many contradictions and try to clarify his statements but don’t ask him about the very first punch, and how the two moved from A to B, with A being wherever the fight became physical and B being where the shot was fired. They do follow the obvious gist of the NE call recording, and press him on the idea that he was chasing the kid down both in his car and on foot, but GZ denies both ideas, and refuses to amend his earlier statements (except where he has clearly contradicted himself, regarding where the circling took place, which he now says repeatedly that happened by the clubhouse, despite haveing only just recently acted out the “doubling back/hand in waist band circling the vehicle” story as though it was at the end of TTL by the cut thru.)

    What they fully establish in their final interview is that GZ is not telling the whole truth and that he contradicts himself and that when confronted, he clams up when he lacks a ready excuse. But they didn’t press him specifically on the migration of the fight. And that’s frustrating because that speaks to who was the aggressor and if he tried to detain the teen.

    Perhaps they felt they had enough of the gist of what sort of witness he would make and wanted to leave the rest of the revelations about his contradictions to the prosecution to highlight at trial… perhaps they just missed it. It’s so hard to tell, absent their own words. Serino plays “good cop” and Singleton plays “good cop” too for the bulk of the interviews just to draw GZ out into making as many statements as possible. They gave him enough rope and he’s hung himself in the overall credibility department but they didn’t get him on record in this specific area with directed questions about this crucial aspect – they do confront him in a general sense and ask him if he wants to amend any of his account, but it’s an all-over sort of a way… Listen to the third and final interview session with this specific question in mind and tell me what a jury would hear on this subject.

    If they can prove GZ was the aggressor of the physical confrontation, or that he tried to detain TM, or that he gave TM sufficient reason to strike a first blow then they can use that against him to prove aspects of M2. Do they have what it takes or not? They have his credibility destroyed, of this I am certain. But only in other areas before the physical stuff begins.

    • What do you think of the witness who says people moved from south to north then fists? The scattered debris field covers a lot of space. I, too, thought it indicated more of a north to south pattern, but I can’t get past that witnesses statement. How did her statement change so much? I keep questioning if GZ placed his keys/small flashlight at the north end of the key after the altercation.

      • “I keep questioning if GZ placed his keys/small flashlight at the north end of the key after the altercation.”

        Where was Zimmerman apprehended?

        “Freeze — drop whatever is in your hands and hold them up.”

      • I agree, NLME. I don’t think Trayvon was anywhere near the T during the entirety of the confrontation. I said before, those keys are a throw down, after the fact, IMO.

      • Yup, apprehended up by the T, but Jon also reported seeing that on and on the ground when he went outside. I believe he took a picture of it, also. We have the teacher, Mary, and Selma all placing GZ as walking towards that T after, so…was he planting shit to make it look like it happened there?

      • If you mean W2, who has some discussion with Serino about directions, I note that at the end she is asked, if they kept running, would they pass your house/unit and she says yes. It’s the last question she’s asked and they put an end to it there, so she’s talking about south. She’s also the earliest witness if she did indeed see a two person foot chase. Most people claim she has recanted her story, but in point of fact she’s never asked specifically how many people she saw. Later investigators may or may not have known how singular her “glance” was out the window as a glimpse of the start of the fight, and they are much more interested in what she saw later on. She’s never asked after the first time “how many people did you see when you glanced out the window?” And if she was to take the witness stand, the prosecution could play the tape of her describing a two person foot chase and then they could ask her why she said that and what she meant when she said that. Either she is the only witness to a chase or she isn’t. There is still W4, W7 and W10 to hear from, plus the idea that W8, “Dee Dee” is a witness to a chase of some sort.

        Or are you speaking about someone else? Be specific if you can.

        As for the idea that the keys are a plant/ throw down of some sort, he’s awfully quick to realize the significance of the idea of moving to(wards) his truck and all, in my opinion if that is the case. I don’t think he’s that smart, essentially.

        To me the still lit keychain flashlight suggests that as GZ moved west on the cut thru path, he now had a working flashlight and that TM’s reflective shoes (see yellow tarp pics for shiny shoe) gave away his position to GZ, who advanced on him in response, most likely as far as the 8-10 foot south of the T spot, thus abandoning his supposed quest to return to(wards) his vehicle, if he ever had one. He left the car to find the teen, and he kept looking until he found him. Just because he took a wrong turn doesn’t mean he gave up looking. If a rat reaches a dead end in a maze, and turns back, has he given up looking for the cheese?

        I think the physical aspect of the altercation started with a punch by TM or a lunge by GZ to try and detain the youth. But absent a witness, we can never really know. The reason I tend to lean towards the idea that it was a lunge is that every time GZ tells the story of how he was punched, he seems to end it with falling to the ground and then TM mounting him. Whatever happened up by the T seems to have led to a foot chase, and then some act that put GZ onto the ground in a state where the lighter person could gain advantage temporarily.

        Again, here is the very first accounts GZ gives:
        “I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
        “as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
        “and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”

        And yet the body is found 50 feet south of the T. So where was this punch delivered? Seems to me it was at the southern most point of the migration.

        And yet all of that is well and good but proves nothing at a trial. What can be proven at trial is what matters to the prosecution. So far, given what we’ve heard it’s clear to me that GZ chased him down TTL with his car, causing the teen to run and he’s lying and caught lying about his versions(s) which are contradictory.

        What he says about how the fight started may or may not be true, but there are no witnesses besides the proven liar, and why should anyone believe him? I’m more inclined to say that whatever he says happened is also a lie, since he’s proven himself a liar.

      • @willisnewton

        I apologize for not being specific. I did not have the witnesses name or number in front of me when I responded, but yes, I was referring to S.B. – W2. I must have misunderstood her statement because I thought she was describing south to north.

        I’m still uncertain about the role of the keys at the T. If they aren’t an evidence plant, how do they end up there? Does he reach for his gun at the T causing him to drop them and forget about them to continue pursuit?

        I think it was a simultaneous lunge/punch. GZ never answers TM’s inquiry, and does not address that he is GZ with NW. I think the most likely scenario is GZ stepped or lunged closer while reaching to grab TM, and as this happened TM swung causing them to stumble to the ground allowing TM to get on top. I DO NOT believe they were in the position GZ claims. I believe they were completely in the grass.

        How does the prosecution prove their case pertaining to what occurred after the fight… It has to be the forensics combined with his lies. They have to prove he did not have to shoot the moment he did. We still have evidence we’re waiting on to prove M2.

      • willisnewton on July 3 —

        “TM’s reflective shoes (see yellow tarp pics for shiny shoe)”

        Could you post a link to the photo of TM’s reflective shoe showing under the tarp? (I’ve seen the photos but not the shoe.) For one thing, there’s been some debate about the final position of TM’s head and feet (head pointed west, according to one police report), and it relates to GZ’s testimony about his head being beaten on the sidewalk in the final struggle. Generally, TMs body is, oh, maybe 7-10 feet from the sidewalk, and his head pointing away from the sidewalk (west) would further undermine GZ’s story, even with the medics rolling TM’s body over.

        Secondly, super-dangerous burglar thugs do not wear light-colored clothing (khaki pants, white shoes) to case houses at 7 p.m. while everybody is home having dinner — much less reflective shoes. Even GZ, after so many years of being vigilant, worried, making phone calls, taking courses, etc., should have known that, and in fact Serino very briefly pointed that out to him.

      • Here is a link to a picture of the reflective white shoe peeking out of the yellow tarp.


      • Willisnewton — Thanks for the link to the photo of shoe. So it looks like TM’s body did end up with the head pointing in a northeasterly direction.

        • I could be wrong, maybe this has been discussed, and perhaps the angle of the pic skews things… But, it seems like Trayvon’s body wasn’t anywhere close enough to a utility cover or sidewalk for Zimmerman to have simply rolled the lifeless teen’s body off and to the side after the shooting.

          Well, unless Zimmerman is strong and tossed Trayvon but I’m guessing this isn’t the case. For 1, Zimmerman carried a gun. For 2, He almost shiat his pants when Trayvon walked by his vehicle at the 1:30ish mark of the 911 call.

    • There are a number of other statements from GZ in this latest dump, which we’ll get in a few days/ weeks? when O’mara finishes going through them. Maybe those address these other issues.

      We’ve still not been given half the stuff from the previous release, either.

    • What if you removed George Zimmerman’s flashlight w/key from the debris field? What would you conclude without the flashlight w/key?

      • “What if you removed George Zimmerman’s flashlight w/key from the debris field? What would you conclude without the flashlight w/key?”

        Correct. Where was Zimmerman apprehended? Near the T as he was walking away?

      • What if TM was indeed by his dad’s girl’s place, and GZ walked to where he said in the reenactment, but then turned right like TM, but at the other side of the houses? GZ hears TM, ends the 911 call, then turns the corner at the south T. TM sees him and turns to start walking back up the path. “He’s getting real close.” “He’s right behind me.” I get this eerie feeling GZ got out of his car before TM even got to where he claims he did.

      • So, are you theorizing that Zimmerman still had his Honda key after pulling the trigger and then dropped it near the T with the light on?

        Perhaps it was then that the shot of the back of his head showing him on the phone was taken and he was telling Shellie or Frank to come grab the key before the crime scene tape went up and move his truck?



      • Witness Jonathan (not John) said he saw the key with the light ON as soon as he went outside. GZ was then fairly close to the scene. This was before he took the bloodied-head photo and before the police arrived. GZ was close to the body when T.Smith got there.
        He was, however, seen to be walking up and down with his hands to his head before Jonathan showed up.

      • Lots of things are possible. What the prosecution can prove in court is what seems to matter. GZ did seem to leave the body post-killing and then walk up to where the T was, according to witnesses.

        GZ seems motivated to stick to his story thus far. Shellie faces perjury charges and may or may not flip on him. That’s the only way we’ll know – if she flips on her husband, and he has told her the truth. That’s a big “if.” I don’t think he tells anyone the truth, even himself.

        We know he lied to investigators. We know he told lies of omission to the court. We can assume he lied to his own lawyer prior to the bond hearing if he allowed the lawyer to argue that he was indigent. We don’t know if he’s lied to his father and mother or not, but if he did not, and told them the truth about the hidden money and passport then they were complicit in the lies told to the court. If not, he’s a guy capable of lying to his own father and mother and allowing them to put up $10K against their home for him (which they have forfeited to the bondsman) while not coming clean with them. Are we to assume he told his wife the truth?

        The prosecution seems to want to stick to a more vague narrative – that GZ can be proven to have chased the teen and shot the teen. What else can they prove? They can prove that a great deal of what GZ said is lies, and let the jury make up their minds about his self defense tale. IANAL and don’t really know if this is enough to gain a conviction or not.

        But I also know that we don’t have all the evidence or witness statements in the public domain yet, either.

        • “Zimmerman seems motivated to stick to his story thus far. Shellie faces perjury charges and may or may not flip on him. That’s the only way we’ll know – if she flips on her husband, and he has told her the truth. That’s a big “if.” I don’t think he tells anyone the truth, even himself.”

          I agree — Meaning, I think the only story he’s recited (to presumably anybody but his dad) is the one he offered during the interviews and lie detector test.

      • @onlyiamunitron

        “So, are you theorizing that Zimmerman still had his Honda key after pulling the trigger and then dropped it near the T with the light on? Perhaps it was then that the shot of the back of his head showing him on the phone was taken and he was telling Shellie or Frank to come grab the key before the crime scene tape went up and move his truck? Interesting.”

        Actually, I hadn’t thought of him leaving the key for a cohort to come pick up. I don’t think that was the goal.

        What I was saying is “the Defendant has taken courses in criminal justice” (as Judge Lester mentioned in his order setting bail at $1M). I speculate that George Zimmerman used what he learned about crime scenes and deliberately expanded the “debris field” by dropping the key/flashlight up near the tee. All the while giving off an impression for onlookers that he was merely pacing and holding his head in dispair/raising his arms surrendering to police that had not yet arrived.

        Zimmerman was aware that witnesses were around since MC and Selma were shouting to him. He became aware of Jon later as well.

  13. Thank you, Tina. I appreciate the explanation. I’m still trying to understand all this. I was thinking that the judge’s discretion meant he found the defense’s arguments compelling based on what he was given at the time of his decision. Since that was based on lies by the Zimmerman klan/family who presented fake strong ties to the community and false testimony about indigency, that the judge revoked bond based on one or more problems that disproved a bondable scenario (as you say) in his discrestion.

    In other words, the judge gave the benefit of doubt to Zimmerman based on his families lies to the court. He revoked bond based on his discovery that the Zimmermans lied to him and George Zimmerman was the ring-leader/orchestrator of this deception on a jail-house recorded line.

  14. Reposting now that this blog is back in swing..

    In response to post #5 above on June 30, 2012 at 5:08 pm
    @whonoze –

    “a. Even if GZ can be proved to be the biggest liar in FL since Casey Anthony, that doesn’t mean the State can prove he wasn’t in fear for his life.”

    The State is proving that Zimmerman is the one who put his own fears in motion and no reasonable person would have done so and that is based on what Zimmerman himself has said and the evidence. The law doesn’t cover vigilantes.

    Been meaning to mention that I also don’t agree with your analysis of DeeDee as a witness. I found everything DeeDee said to be consistent and credible. She’s never indicated any propensity towards lying in her interview, imo.

    “You could say that” means she accepted the paraphrasing of what she heard, not ok, I’ll say that if you need me to. Please expand on why you think DeeDee loses credibility for accepting the investigator’s paraphrasing of events.

    She was also interviewed another time and mentioned that Trayvon Martin said this guy was getting close to him and this occurred after Trayvon Martin had lost Zimmerman and Trayvon was near his dad’s home.

  15. Here is the famous medical report

    Looks like the docter did not diagnose a broken nose, Zimmerman told her EMS had told him his nose was broken.

    And another bit of interesting news about witness 9. According to the state this witness made an allegation about an act comitted by GZ.

  16. Judge KL reports he’ll file his decision on GZ’s bond Thursday…

    Happy 4th of July, all! Cheers to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!

    Rest In Peace, TBM – Hope you’re chilling in the sky, smoking a big fat fucking blunt, kid. Know your death ain’t in vain.

    • that phone call on the 19th makes me think they were going to run. I think when he got arrested there was a surge in donations. The day before the bond hearing Shellie tells him she was going to take that thing out of the safety deposit box (passport), and that “ken” said they should have a lot of money on them…something tells me that if he didn’t have the gps tracking device strapped to him they would be sunning it up in Rio at the expense of those idiots with nothing better to do with their money.

      • Those tracking devices can be cut off. But I think that sets an alarm too, so you have to move fast once it’s off.

        (Disclaimer: guessing, never had one and never will)

  17. Does anyone have a link to the evidence that O’mara submitted. I tried to view it on his webpage. I would like to read the narratives from FDLE and SAO memos from witnesses 6, 11 and 20 that he has posted. I have the interviews and 911 calls.

  18. Willis wrote: “If you mean W2, who has some discussion with Serino about directions, I note that at the end she is asked, if they kept running, would they pass your house/unit and she says yes. It’s the last question she’s asked and they put an end to it there, so she’s talking about south.”.


    Yous should listen to the interview W2 had with FDLE on 03/20. There the confusion about the direction of the running is all cleared up: It is the north.

    In the 03/09 interview, the discussion about the direction of the running is really confusing. So without seeing the map they are using in that interview, I would not consider it.

  19. After reading over the order again, did the Judge forget to include NO POSSESSION OF FIREARMS?

    I find his order interesting. The Judge is clearly not happy, but I’m still uncertain how GZ is not considered a threat to the community. I would assume because he’s being closely monitored and is not to possess a firearm the Judge believes it unlikely he will present a danger to others. However, it seems the no firearms/weapons was left out of the order, does it not? I would still disagree that GZ is no threat even if he is not in possession of a firearm or other weapon. He has a documented history of aggression, and with so much fear and mistrust while facing a M2 charge, it is uncertain if he could snap at some point due to the mounting pressure.

    I was pleased the Judge acknowledged that GZ and his family are familiar with law, and that GZ did indeed play the system to achieve a favorable outcome. In addition, the order makes it known his family’s word essentially means very, very little at this juncture. It will be taken for what it’s worth in the future, as well.

    Also, I noted how Judge KL didn’t want to touch the evidence issue. O’Mara got pissed and pitched a fit because he knew the word of the honorable Judge stating the state’s case was strong could influence public opinion. He wanted to get the Judge to take his word back to indicate the case was weak, but Judge KL dropped that like a hot sack of shit, lol. O’Mara knows if the case was so weak that he could motion for charges to be dropped based on insufficient evidence.

    As for O’Mara begging for more money, no words, I just can’t stop shaking my head. He sounds like a damn ASPCA commercial that makes you want to hug you pets except the crowd he’s appealing to are more likely to go hug their white hoods or guns. It would be such a shame to be held accountable for one’s own actions, huh, O’Mara?

    • If it was accidentally (I presume) left out, Judge Lester better add this condition ASAP.

      Otherwise, I (jokingly) predict current day pictures of Zimmerman surrounded by a bunch of guns comes to surface.

      “Wha? Zimmerman didn’t do anything wrong — If you look at the judge’s order from the second bond hearing, Judge Lester never mentioned he couldn’t participate in a gun toting orgy.”

      • Ha, your comment reminded me of a scene from the movie American Beauty. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, but in the movie Kevin Spacey’s character fantasizes about his teen daughter’s friend (Mena Suvari); rose petals are falling upon her as she lays there seductively covered in them. Now, I’m just imagining guns falling from the sky while GZ (fully clothed…I don’t want to have nightmares after hurling violently) rolls around in a pile of guns petting them.

  20. Zimmerman is free from jail as of this afternoon.

    He paid the 10% and somehow secured the $1M collateral.


    Civil society doesn’t want his ass back.

    • I’m wondering how easy it’s going to be to hide right there in Seminole County. Those donations must be rolling in by the second for him to be able to afford security, the ankle monitor, and living expenses.. Not to mention any legal expenses. He might be a free man but not as free as he wants to be. He can’t even step outside without someone recognizing him. Im hoping the rumors of extra charges are true.. Someone needs to use him as an example if what NOT to do (lie, cheat, murder, lie, try to flee… Did I mention lie?) 🙂

  21. where the hell did he get $1 million collateral, they were struggling to get $150k last time. Still can’t believe people are financing this guy for shooting someone, it seems wrong on all levels. I can’t believe it’s even legal.

    • I agree! Profiting off of a child’s death should be illegal. It shows how morally bankrupt they all are. It’s not like he is using the money to fight crime.. Or change laws. Its sad.

      • From what I can make out from my brief nose-holding visits to the pro-Z sites, the prosecution is entirely political, because Obama needs the black votes (apparently not the Hispanic ones) so the Republican Florida Governor is helping him, by prosecuting GZ who is entirely innocent, as PROVEN by his (still) life-threatening injuries and blood all over TM’s knuckles, that TM was a drug-addicted burglar thug who attacked him.

        As a side-effect GZ is going to be railroaded for fear of all America being burned down by rioters it he’s acquitted. Judge Lester only increased the bail to make sure he gets re-elected (the mechanics of this left unexplained).

        Oh, and SYG only applies to the survivor, not the victim. And 99% of commenters, if being chased, would happily run straight home thus leading their stalker to their home. None would hide. All would explain themselves politely to any stranger that asks.

        That as far as I can tell is the outlines of the “truth”.

  22. I was encouraged by the judge’s written order saying exactly what had said, which was that but for the GPS device GZ seemed to have the means, motive and opportunity to flee the country.

    The law stated that he more or less HAD to grant bond but it seems he wasn’t too thrilled about it and gave strict conditions and all but filled in the paperwork for the prosecution to go ahead and charge GZ with criminal contempt.

    I think GZ may lose some more of his fans’ money in a few days when his bond gets revoked again, or he tries to flee. If I were him I’d run. This may be his last chance to do so.

  23. Has the State released footage of video footage of entrance to Retreat View Circle?
    In audio 2 interview by Singleton forward from @ :39 she says, This is the neighborhood we are talking about.
    Can you put an X where you first saw the guy.
    GZ right about here.
    @:47 she says this is the entrance, correct?
    GZ Yes Mam
    Singleton, this is where you first saw him.

    In other statements and reenactments GZ states he first saw him coming out of 1460.

    Trying to catch up on data.
    Thanks for your help.

    • Not video, Loree. He was given a map, looked like a bad printout of a Google satellite view, and asked to mark Xes on it for where he was, where the car was etc.
      I can’t for the life of me find that map right now.

      • The map can be found here on page 20.

      • Note well that GZ marked a middle position on the map, but quickly crossed it out. IMO he’s lying to hide the fact that he chased TM down TTL in his car causing him to run. GZ’s statements don’t match the recorded call to dispatch given his insistence on where he started and parked, but if you include this middle position it all makes sense.

        BTW I heard second hand that the gate cameras were out of order.

        This map, while horribly reproduced in a zerox is a key piece of evidence.

        Note also that GZ seemingly marked a different spot in the clubhouse parking lot, at the complete other end.

        My own notes about this map are here:

        They include a higher contrast version that makes some of the marks easier to see. Look at the map and listen to the audio of GZ and Singleton drawing on it to see where GZ’s lies begin in earnest. It’d seconds after amending his “middle position” mark that he invents the “double back/circling the car” false narrative. This specific contradiction is the key to proving to a jury that he is a liar because he himself contradicts aspects of the tale when played the recording of his call to dispatch and is asked to say where he is when TM seems to approach and pass his car. It’s here he’s caught red-handed in a major lie and he knows it.

      • Thanks for the reply, I knew he was given a paper map, the point I was trying to make is that he said he first saw him at the gate not 1460 rvc. I also have been waiting for 4 7 and 10 statements since the first discovery dump. Will be interesting to see other data as to memos and fbi reports etc.

    • @WillisNewton, I must congratulate you on the excellent job you have done in your Flicker page analysis.

      • Thanks Caroline. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him THINK. The same scenario explained on other blogs is met by silence, sniping around the edges or ad hominem attacks and censorship.

        GZ has serious inconsistencies and contradictions regarding his movement from clubhouse to cut thru. He himself supplied the key to resolving the issues and syncing the timeline when he marked the map given him. But then he crossed it out early into his second recorded interview and he’s been caught in his lies ever since.

  24. Where are the documents and discovery materials that were to be released today??? 3pm EST and I can’t find them.

  25. Looks like the very large document dump is coming on Thursday, according to prosecutors as reported in Orlando Sentinel.

    The list of materials is here:

    What I’m waiting to see, besides the total station map/evidence map is the following:

    SAO 4th memos (interviews) Gilbreath interviews Serion and Singleton, and W 2, W4, W7 and W10, in addition to many many more.

    Then there is a FDLE report with notes, which sounds like a summary of some sort.

    It will be very interesting to hear Serino talk to another law enforcement type about the case and not have to play “good cop” like he does with GZ. To me he is the one guy who has seen best if GZ is a credible guy or not. ALso SIngleton, but she’s not a homicide cop, and her duty was not to oversee all the aspects of the case.

      • I Admit this sites organization confounds me. Where does the latest info get posted? Is there more than one current thread going on?

        • My bad. One of links I included at the bottom of the newest Zimmerman – Trayvon Martin blog postings (so, the postings that recapped the 2nd bond hearing, highlighted discrepancies in his statements, etc.) redirected to the wrong posting. I have updated this bottom section of these newer postings.

          To clarify, the following blog posting is currently maintained including court proceedings, case updates, most discussion in the comments section, etc.:

          The “issue” has become that the number of comments are causing poor page load times and it’s not easy — unless you have a technique (which I don’t but am sure others do) — to read/track all the newer comments. I apologize…both the first posting (retired~ish) and the currently maintained posting (link above) have turned more into forums than a blog posting with comments.

          I unfortunately don’t have much time, energy, resources, etc. to invest in a blog format update but would take suggestions. Ideally suggestions that wouldn’t ruin/change the format of some of my previous entries. Integrations with WordPress to make the transitions to a new format would be ideal.

          As the case goes to trial, I may need to create more blog postings. I have 2 now…

          1) Old (retired~ish):

          2) Current (mentioned way up above in this comment):

          3 and maybe 4 main postings regarding the shooting isn’t too confusing…I hope. So, 1) Map Analysis 2) Evidence & Court Proceedings 3) Pre-Trial 4) Trial. Or, maybe lump both the pre-trial and trial into a 3rd and final main posting.

      • I think if a blog starts to get too big, just close it for further comments and start a new one as a continuation.

        That way it’s all in one place at one time. I know a lot of stuff has been repeated at least twice, because someone says something and someone answers, on several blogs.

        With new evidence dump on the way, that is what we’ll be digging into for a while. There will be references to older stuff, especially maps might have to be redrawn AGAIN. The fresh ones could go inline, and be added to the update section of the original (but no new comments allowed there). It has about 500 since the second one got started because of the first being too big.

        So when one gets too big, close it with a link to the continuation, start the continuation with a link back to the earlier one.

        Also, NLME, if you could consider not pre-moderating? just kill any spam afterwards? you say you don’t censor anything but spam anyway. if would improve the flow of conversation. Often several people answer a question, not being able to see someone else also answered. Or an only answer ends up 10 items up from the bottom because of the time delays, especially from people in other timezones.

    • Thank you for posting that PDF! I look forward to your analysis and discussion of the new evidence.

      “SAO 4th memos (interviews) Gilbreath interviews Serion and Singleton, and W 2, W4, W7 and W10, in addition to many many more.”

      I’m looking forward to that, also; in addition, I am looking forward to any additional statements from or about my favorite witnesses (#6, #11, & #20). I have to admit that I’m curious to know what was asked of Oliver and Taaffe. I read elsewhere that Taaffe either tweeted or FB that he didn’t give anything up, which I thought was a weird comment, but it is FT.

      There’s a number of additional witnesses, so I’m interested to see if one of them is CG, and I’m also interested to see if there are others who may have heard or seen something that night, but thought it to be insignificant.

      I agree, willisnewton, it will be very interesting to see what the PD has to say in their statements to investigators, especially Serino. We know what was said to GZ and the public, but what these people thought and said to investigators will be extremely insightful.

      I’m attempting to wait patiently for any further info on the GSW and GSR, too. The interviews and maps are all great, but I’m interested to see additional reports on the forensic evidence, as well.

    • HAHAHA

      They blocked out all the witness names.

      Then right below they listed FBI and FDLE interviews, each giving the witness name and number.

      Thank you guys, another lot of guessing we don’t have to do.

      (I might have to call in sick on Thursday).

      • Does anyone know when and where Thursday’s discovery materials might first hit the internees? Some blogs are on the media list for the court and some are not. There will be a lot of material to process and iirc the court doesnt host public documents of this type. (where when, gimme… TIA LOL)

    • thanks for that, does anyone know anything about the “civilians” or how they are connected to the case?

      • The “civilians” seem to be people they interviewed but who are not going to be called as witnesses. Mainly the gun shop and various shooting range people, asked about things like GZ’s shooting experience and if he ever made racist remarks (was interview along these lines with gun shop owner 2 or 3 weeks ago, when the list first came out).

      • So if they are from the gun shops and shooting range, perhaps the witnesses from the shooting range can tell, which hand he was shooting with.

    • NLME for Blog Admin….oh…wait.huh, whut?

      I kid. By far my favorite place for in-depth analysis of the evidence. Well done, sir!

      • The issue with most of Zimmermans supporters are not with the case itself but with the fact of the matter that people of all races banded together, rallied, showed love and are seeking justice for this young man. This is what they can not stand, they are not interested in banding together but in tearing apart. Rev Al, and Rev Jesse said they were invited and that they were only interested in helping get Zimmerman arrested, they did that and now they are letting the judicial system work. The problem with this and with those who look at president Obama is this type of progress reminds them of a time where black people were seen but dare not heard, they long for those days to come back. How can someone who has not ever needed to fight to declare their civil rights claim to know so much about it. You can’t say that racism doesn’t exist in this Country, it does and anyone can be racist. I choose to live with my brother and sister in harmony. I don’t choose to alienate my kids and myself because I feel I should be angry. I even read where one of them said that black people were the curse of Adam and Eve, if a preacher taught them that then good luck with the afterlife. My daught looked at me with her big brown eyes, she was only around 7 years old and she said ” mama why did we have to be the ones that were slaves” Oh it hurt my heart. If you have never had that question asked of you by your child then you don’t know how it feels to be black and you surely don’t know any of our past, future or present struggles. I have lived through hard times but I choose to live life and be happy. I have friends of all races and we would do anything for each other. The racist people who are backing Zimmerman can’t stand him as well but they just hate what they think of as the lessor race more. Zimmerman angers me because he identifies as white, go look at his medical report and see white as his race, this is not just put there when he filled out the forms to be seen at the doctors office he had to be the one to mark white, the EMT report says white male and so does the spd. This is my problem, you sit up there and let the world grow angered over you being called white, they sit up and say the media tried to hype it up by saying it was a white and black crime, you knew in you identify as white, you knew you listed yourself as white but yet you wanted to take advantage of your hispanic and black heritage when it suited you. How does that seem right!! I read a blog by a hispanic columnist who said that he was absolutely NOT!! in favor of Zimmerman and that he and others have tried to cause a split in the relationships between black and brown( AA, Hispanic), he said he was making it clear that they were not going to have it!! he also gave a break down as to why some hispanics deny their heritage, he said some hispanics just do not want to be affiliated with what the stereotypes about hispanics. I can understand that, Tiger Woods made sure to let everyone know that he was not black, all the while standing there with his black father. They have their reasons for this, I am not interested but whatever. I think Zimmerman thinks he is superior if he identifies as white. If his father raised him to shun his heritage then it is a slap in the face to his mom and her grandfather, if in fact the picture shown all over media is true. I need to research this so called grandfather. I am so tired of being sick and tired of people grouping all black people together, they say blacks are lazy, blacks are always starting trouble. What? You have not met every black person so how would you know, this type of thinking is why we are here now, Zimmerman thought he could just kill this black kid because he was black and he would get away with it, he may spend his ill gotten goods from murdering this kid, he may laugh and feel secure but the day of reckoning will arrive soon. I said before that there is no way that Zimmerman could be so fed up with the burglaries that he decided to take justice in his own hands, Zimmerman is the thug he claims to hate, he has irritated the courts with his behavior, he barely kept a job and his wife has admitted to them living a good bit off of unemployment. He sued a company for back wages and was fined for not coming to his own deposition but never paid, he sits up there like the poster child for good behavior, speaking low, wearing suits too big for him, and being very polite. He has a persona that he likes to show to people and this is why he got such a low bond, this is why he has never paid for ny of his past crimes. This has to stop, he has done enough, this is his 3 strikes. He has made it virtually impossible because of him for Martin to ever be cast in the light of being a normal teenager with normal dreams. He has permanently made this young man a thug in the minds of a lot of Americans and beyond. How he sleeps at night is beyond me.

      • Riisey, as far as I can tell from Australia, and regularly chatting with a lot of Americans (well we tele-work together but we do talk about other things, too) black and white are not colours. What I see is:

        “Blacks” is African-American. The ones who used to be slaves. The skin colour marks them generation after generation. Sometimes this colour on other people causes them to be mistaken for “blacks”. On this interpretation, President Obama is not “black” – his father was a genuine first-generation Kenyan. Even when living in the USA in his childhood, he didn’t grow up in a culture that is permeated with the family knowledge of the slavery and the segregation (and worse) that followed. When he was elected I told my friends that’s great progress in 40 years, and they sadly said “we (the US) are not ready for a REAL black president yet”.

        White is Caucasian. Dark-skinned Italians, Greeks, Spaniards (from Spain) are counted as white (never mind the Mediterranean people who are dark as so because of African traders a thousand or more years ago).

        Anyone who is mixed may identify with whichever part of the mixture they like, usually depending on which “side” they grew up in. So GZ’s supposedly black ancestor makes no difference to how he identifies and who/what he discriminates against. For all we know, Trayvon might have a white great-grandparent; makes no difference.

        Many South Americans think of themselves as white, especially if they have a good proportion of Spanish blood. In the US they are entitled to call themselves white as they are predominantly Caucasian; Zimmerman is at least 50% Caucasian from his father, likely some more through his mother.

        Hispanic is a US invention to allow them to not call these people white. After all they may/probably have “Indian” blood so are not “pure enough”. It is now so tainted with anti “illegals” feeling, it’s not surprising many South Americans don’t want to identify as such in the USA. Besides, to themselves, they’re Mexican or Brazilian (Portuguese actually not Spanish) or Argentinian etc.

        The tree/nuthouse site is so keen to distance themselves from GZ that they refer to him as Jorge – which is NOT what he calls himself – while counting him as white for purposes of being a “pawn” in a political conspiracy to do with Obama wanting to get re-elected (the logic of which I cannot begin to follow). Ahem… he’s been charged ‘cos he KILLED someone, remember?

        Did I just say logic? they don’t have any. The whole black white hispanic thing comes down to labelling people to have a ready way to know who to discriminate against. Because some almost don’t exist unless they do discriminate. They define themselves only by who they are NOT; this makes them nobody if there’s no “others” to feel superior to by despising them.

        (We have a tiny bit of this in Australia, as our own Aboriginal people are dark-skinned; but there are so few of them many people have never seen one. They are too small a group to be useful as an “other” for self-definition purposes. Discrimination tends to be more against Asians, who’ve only been allowed in as immigrants since the 1970s).

        Riisey, keep loving your beautiful children, and keep loving your friends and neighbours, don’t even see their colour. It’s clean hands and clean consciences and gentle hearts that matter. I pray by the time your daughter becomes a mother, the government has outlawed recording skin colour on its forms, and her child may be registered just as “US citizen”.

        As for GZ, I hope they leave race out of the trial as much as possible. A narcissist with anger management problems and delusions of heroism shot a teenager who was acting innocently at the time (there, does that cover Trayvon’s supposed “past”?). Racial bias by the police was just the excuse to get him correctly charged. The more they leave race out of it, the better for America in the long run.

        (NLME feel free to remove this if you think it’s too far off topic).

        • Aussie,Qetno

          Thank you for your words. I am sorry that I just got a chance to read this, there have always been things that have happened in my life that have restored my faith in humanity. I have had the opportunity to bond with many people over my lifetime, I am truly blessed in my surroundings. I have learned to take the good with the bad. We as a people have come a long way but we still have a long way to go, some of the things we go through are due to our own sisters and brothers whom can’t and won’t appreciate their ancestors and how they died fighting for us to have the freedoms that we do. We will always be looked at as people who once were hung, sold naked on an auction block, illiterate, and uneducated. We will be seen by most as violent, and unconcerned with hygiene or anything else that make us nonhuman. When I look at black on black crime, I begin to resent those who do it just as much as my non black counterparts. We all bleed the same, we all feel the same but as you see with this case. Trayvon Martin was a normal teenager pushing the boundaries of his age, there are teenagers of all races that are doing the same thing that he was doing, wearing the same nike hoodie, wearing the same shoes, and same kind of jeans but he was made suspicious due to what was a combination of fear of the black person. Although this has outraged people of all races all over the Country and rightly so, we as a people need to stop the violence toward each other and this will stop making us so much of a target, a racist feels as though since we are killing each other at an alarming rate then why do we care or what should it matter who else kills us. Those of us in the African American community who are professionals, law abiding, church going( or not) respectful, etc,, get thrown in with all black people, it is unfair because we are the ones who have worked hard for peace, and for unity. Thanks again, Peace. T

      • @aussie

        “The whole black white hispanic thing comes down to labelling people to have a ready way to know who to discriminate against.”


        “Riisey, keep loving your beautiful children, and keep loving your friends and neighbours, don’t even see their colour. It’s clean hands and clean consciences and gentle hearts that matter. I pray by the time your daughter becomes a mother, the government has outlawed recording skin colour on its forms, and her child may be registered just as ‘US citizen’.”

        AMEN. Agree.

        What race are we? HUMAN RACE. Fuck all this other stupid labeling BS.

        We are all similar, and we are all unique/different. No two are the exact same. It’s so sad that it’s so hard for people to embrace and learn from the differences in each person rather than fear them. I could put a number of labels on myself (we all could), but what would they really mean? I’m a daughter and sister, so are many others, but that doesn’t many anyone else will have the same exact relationships or experiences with their family. I’m white, but not all white people are the same. I was raised Catholic, but not all Catholics are the same. I’m a registered Republican (lol), but ya’ll should sure as shit know by my comments that I don’t fall in line with what many stereotype as Repub ideologies. Labels, for the most part, are stupid, divisive, and don’t mean shit. They are their to point out some “major common denominator” between people, but considering within the labels no two are the same, those labels mean nothing. In an attempt to show similarities in people, labels have instead highlighted the differences to allow us to know who to fear/hate.

      • Thanks. This is how, where and why he lies and he’s caught red handed doing it. He’s got two versions of how he was “circled” and they are both lies.

        Serino knew it, too I think. Look to his debriefing session available Thursday for potential confirmation. Keep in mind however chasing a teen down TTL with his car is not a crime in and of itself – but it raises the question of why did he lie about it?

      • Yep, Willis, for sure. Can’t remember if tape 2 or tape 3 but in one of the Serino tapes, I think tape 3 as Singleton was there as well, they ask about this circling, and he admits Trayvon actually just “passed” his vehicle, and that the closest he got was about “a car-length away”.

        Of course if WE (or the prosecution) ever say “aha! there’s the truth at last” THEY can always rebut with “but he’s a liar, you say so yourself, and we freely admit it, so why believe him now just ‘cos it suits you?”

        So we still do need to find external evidence to pinpoint when he IS telling something close to the truth.

        I thought originally he was parked facing east (which is not what he told friend Taafe but what he said in the walkthrough) and thought he had driven down part of the way into the north-south section of Twin Trees. Just drifted down during the phone call, enough to just lift his foot off the brake. This would have put the foot chase starting around the first unpaved cut-through.

        But tchoupi’s analysed the clubhouse lights to indicate a u-turn to face west. This would make it safe for Trayvon to run on (the wider and better lit) Twin Trees, as being followed by car is less likely if the follower first has to turn around again. It also does explain why he DID get out and chase on foot: faster than a 3-point turn. It also makes it less likely Tray went on the inner path, as GZ said “towards the back entrance”, which he would not be able to see on the path, 60-80 feet BEHIND him through a wet rear window in the dark.

        Someone should go there on the next wet night and check out what can be seen. They should also drive vehicles around the various directions and see what the clubhouse cameras record, to verify the analysis done so far. An analysis like Tchoupi’s won’t make much sense to a jury. A tape of test cars, with known trajectories, compared against the original tapes, would make it blindingly clear to them.

    • You’re welcome, Loree! I’m always willing to host this gathering. 🙂

      princss6, that means a lot seeing that you’re as read up regarding the case as anybody I’ve seen online/twitter. Thank you!

  26. I will likely fail to avail myself of the brilliant insights contained in any post longer than my screen is tall if that post is not broken up into paragraphs with a little white space in between.

  27. This appears to be the new document dump. I haven’t looked at it yet.

  28. The attorney representing the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin has filed a motion requesting a new judge.

    Attorney Mark O’Mara is asking that Judge Kenneth Lester step down in the second degree murder trial of George Zimmerman.

    “Mr. Zimmerman has reasonable fear that he can not get a fair trial,” read an excerpt from a motion to disqualify Judge Lester which was filed on Friday.

    The motion alleges bias on the part of Judge Lester and references language in a court order on July 5, which O’Mara said included disparaging remarks about his client’s character.

    The motion goes on to state that the Court, “advocates for Mr. Zimmerman to be prosecuted for additional crimes; offers a personal opinion about the evidence for said prosecution; and continues to hold over Mr. Zimmerman’s the threat of future contempt proceedings.”

    Read more:

    Here we go Omara is asking for Lester to step down, I guess any judge that rules in anyway against his client is showing bias toward Trayvon Martin. This entire thing is a mess. You have Serino that is saying 2 investigators were pressuring him to file manslaughter charges, 1 happens to be an african american and the other married to an african american. This reminds me of why we have to keep civil rights attorney’s and activists. The city of Sanford has done an awful thing here. The power of the NRA and all of the bigots that stand behind this injustice have more power than the ones wanting to do what’s right. A blind man can see what is going on here. I am sick of this, I am sorry but I feel we have wasted time and wasted our energy, it has been really great commenting with you all but this case will not be won, Zimmerman can smile and afford to joke about hoodies because he knows where he lives and where he committed this crime and that he won’t see the inside of a prison. The domino’s are falling in the directions they always fall. The Martin family is in my prayers, no one should have to go through this but it would take an act of GOD himself to help this family get justice.

    • Thersea,
      Don’t give up, your comments are so insighful and we need to have your input. You and all the other posters are not wasting time or energy. Trayvon hears us, lets keep fighting for he can not fight anymore.

  29. What’s happenjing, NLME? I tried to put comment here 3 times and it just disappears???

      • ok if they do show up just ONE copy will be plenty, thanks, great as the news is I think.

        • I had no idea there were so many comment moderation options with WordPress. I knew there were some I hadn’t looked into but there’s like an entire page of options now. Things done changed since I started this blog up awhile back. Hahahaha.

          • and now I have 4 copies of my last comment disappeared….. great options 🙂

            one of them was actually showing to me as awaiting moderation, the othr 3 didn’t show up at all.

            • So, the options I just selected suck? I think it was supposed to let anybody that’s commented before comment without moderation. This didn’t happen? There are a shiat load of comment moderation options…like too many. I’m not technologicially incompetent but this is confusing.

              Adds: I’m not sure if this is applicable but if you copy/paste the same comment into different areas of the blog, WordPress will block the repeat comments from posting. Add/remove a character and it should work.

          • WONDERFUL this is great, things come up right away.

            That will help the normal flow of conversation no end!.

            Yes I did copy and paste one, twice think. Then I rewrote it and it still failed (I’d left a #comment on the link though). Then I took that off and it looked like gone through, but if disappeared after you finished the change.

            No matter. Everyone should be on the latest blog now anyway. Go have a look, the bank evidence shows Mark Osterman would have been the one to tip him off.

  30. {{{{Theresa}}}} you need a hug. Please don’t give up.

    We are working together, strangers from all around the world, to speak on behalf of Trayvon, because he can’t speak for himself. Your insights and discoveries are part of the big jigsaw we are putting together. Stay with us, get some comfort and strength from being with fair minded and straight thinking people.

  31. I apologize for my previous outburst sometimes you feel as though you have nothing when previously you had everything. I had suffered from reading through the latest evidence and barely getting enough sleep then awakening to the headlines of Omara wants a new judge( I am sure due to the outcry by conservative nut house, and other likes), then I see where Serino has taken a new stance as well, saying he was forced by his co workers into his written report. This explains why he said the things he did to the FBI, I am sure Serino is trying to save his job rather than tell the truth. He is pointing toward them as the leaks to the public. I am just so sick of this. The FBI interviewed people who didn’t even know Zimmerman. Most of them even said, I don’t really know him, how do you determine if someone is racist with these kind of witnesses. Besides he does not have to be a hardcore racist to racially profile someone, how else or why else did he believe Martin to be suspicious? it wasn’t the hoodie alone, it was the added blackness to the hoodie. If he had been standing there laughing and chatting it up with a young white male, I believe Zimmerman would have probably stopped and at least questioned them. He saw Trayvon by himself and suspicious, this is in fact racial profiling. The FBI didn’t want to find anything. There is something wrong when a grown 28 year old man doesn’t have enough social skills to have real friends.

    • I think the FBI were brought into it at the height of the public claims of racism. When you look at the truly horrendous beatings and killings that have happened purely because of the victim’s race (no, not race, colour, we are all the same race) which were never prosecuted as hate crimes, they were never going to do anything like that with this case.

      Even if they’d found witnesses to say GZ always said bad things about blacks, that wouldn’t prove a hate crime. In my view a hate crime is when you attack someone only because you hate them, not when for some other reason you attack someone who falls into a group you happen to hate. Fine distinction but one that needs to be drawn.

      I’d have objected strenuously to any attempt to charge GZ with a hate crime, partly because of all the obvious and horrendous cases that have not been so prosecuted, and also because it would look like “throwing the book at him” just because they can’t make the ordinary murder charge stick.

      I wish they’d get on with just being more thorough about proving the murder charge. The only good thing in the FBI interviews is the occasional little insight into GZ’s psyche and (lack of) friendships.

      As you say, you don’t need to be hardcore racist to profile someone. Plenty of people are racist only to the extent of habitually using slur-words (maybe quite unthinkingly) and not making friends of that race. This is the same degree of “hate” as calling someone of your own colour “trailer trash” and not associating with them. More distaste than hate.

      • There was no other reason to see Martin as suspicious but that he was black. I feel that Zimmerman was not disturbed by the hoodie he was wearing, it was him being black and wearing the hoodie, after all it was raining. He made the comment that he didn’t seem like the type of athlete who trains in the rain, what does that mean?He racially profiled Martin. He could possibly hate black people and from his my space account he wasn’t too happy about hispanics. He was taught that being white made him superior and gave him a better chance in life. That in fact is true!!! Until you have actually awakened black or a minority then you can afford to feel that everything is on a level playing field. I feel like he racially profiled Martin but him being a racist, you would think yes with how obsessed he was with calling the police on African Americans but proving it is another story. We shall see when everything comes out. Racial profiling and hate crimes are hard to make stick due to so many people being so offended by the word that they refuse to hear of it. That is why many African Americans just try to over look certain things rather then try to deal with it right on. I have had blatant things happen to me but I just kept moving on because it was easier for me to just keep quiet. It isn’t always fair but there are plenty of people like me out there, we don’t always pull the race card even when it is necessary. Everybody doesn’t love us nor our ability to live, breathe, eat, or sleep free!!

        Even Mitt Romney even made comments in a racial tone to an NAACP crowd, he was getting applause’s until he brought up Obama and Obama care and once that happened the crowd became ill, then he went into what we always see and that is racial remarks. he used the words get something for free, blah blah blah. When we don’t conform this is how we are treated.

  32. I love this site, and I come here often to read what everone is saying to see if I am missing anything – and often times, I am. So thank you so much everyone and NLME for your endeavors on this case. I normally post at Reality Chatter and your Maps and timelines have been so helpful in understanding what occurred that fateful night. I have’t seen much discussion on MOM’s motion to disqualify Judge Lester, so I wanted to repost the following from my comments at RC:

    Although I hate to see Judge Lester recuse himself because I believe he is a ballbuster and will take no wool being draped over his eyes – I believe any of the Judges who succeed him will do a fine job. I suspect that MOM is doing this:

    (1) to preserve the issue of “bias” as an issue on appeal should Judge Lester not recuse himself and GZ loses a SYG motion/or at trial;

    (2) to get a second bite at the apple, since Rule rule 2.160(h) allows a successor judge to reconsider, vacate, or amend any prior legal or factual rulings of a disqualified judge. This is accomplished by the filing of a motion for reconsideration within 20 days of the order of disqualification. MOM could then ask the successor judge to review the bond Order and lower the bond, change the requirements of the bond, etc. and

    (3) to have the opportunity to have GZ tell his side of the story to the public, with his certification no less, in a pleading without GZ having to be cross-examined. IMO, MOM wanted GZ to be able to make an allocution at the 2nd bond hearing in order to try to sway public opinion of his client and this is a back-door method of doing it without having his client testify. He knows the news outlets are covering his every word. He also knows that the news outlets are covering every document filed by the prosecution or defense, so why not build his case that GZ did not initiate the altercation, that he was fighting for his life, that he shot Trayvon Martin out of self-defense. Much of the diatribe set out in footnotes and main portions of MOM’s motion has little to do with the issue of whether Judge Lester should be disqualified, but everything to do with what potential jurors think of his client. This motion is a second chance at having the stage as the presses roll and the viewing public watches.

    From my reading of MOM’s motion and the applicable case authority, I believe Judge Lester would be right to deny the motion as being legally insufficient. That is, of course, IF Judge Lester wants to stay in the case – otherwise, this is an opportune time to kick the can to another Judge. As noted by the Florida Bar Ass’n, “a related principle mitigating against disqualification is that a judge is not required to abstain from forming mental impressions and opinions during the course of judicial proceedings. For instance, in Mobil v. Trask, 463 So. 2d 389 (Fla. 1st DCA 1985), a deputy commissioner’s remark to an employer/carrier’s attorney at a workers’ compensation hearing that ‘I don’t see how you can’t find this accident compensable,’ which comment related directly to the merits of the petitioner’s case, was nonetheless held to be insufficient to justify the granting of a recusal motion. And, in Brown v. Pate, 577 So. 2d 645 (Fla. 1st DCA 1991), the First District held that in a dependency adjudication of minor children following a father’s acquittal in the prosecution for the mother’s murder, the trial judge’s expression of ‘grave concern’ regarding the father’s visitation did not serve as a basis for judicial disqualification. Citing the rationale of the Mobil case, the court opined that, ‘A judge may form mental impressions and opinions during the course of presentation of evidence so long as she does not prejudge the case.’ Pate, 577 So. 2d at 647.” See,

    No matter, if Judge Lester recuses himself – you can rest assured that the Judges talk amongst themselves and whomever takes over will be thoroughly familiar with the facts of this case and the lies of GZ and Shellie.

  33. Another thing I thought everyone would enjoy is the fact that MOM has made a huge mistake in his presentation of GZ’s case. But first, I completely get it that there will be some discrepancies in a defendant trying to explain what occurred the night of a crime – it is only normal to not remember everything exactly as it actually occurred, but in GZ’s case, there are just too many inconsistencies, too many statements that are nonconforming to the evidence, and they are embellished or changed up completely between one statement and the next – Plus, none of his statements conform to the non-emergency taped call. From what I can see at this point – and I have been listing out each and every inconsistency and discrepancy on my own – the only thing that we can be sure GZ has told the truth about, as another poster here at this site states – is, “I was driving…” MOM’s job is cutout for him. He will be hard pressed to clarify these inconsistencies in GZ’s statements without GZ testifying. And, if GZ does testify, he will be unable to explain the more important aspects of those inconsistencies…no matter how much coaching he will have had in advance, he just won’t be able to stick to the script given to him by MOM…he will have to embelish it and that is where he will go down.

    IMO GZ has to testify. He has no choice. How the jury views that testimony will decide the verdict. Once the defendant takes the stand the only decision the jury makes is whether he is a truthful person. Even the whitest of lies can damage his credibility. MOM has already made one incredible mistake IMO. In order to re-obtain bail, MOM filed his motion for bail. Here is the first sentence of paragraph 10 of the motion:

    “Mr. Zimmerman’s failure to advise the Court of the existence of the donated funds at the initial bail hearing was wrong and Mr. Zimmerman accepts responsibility for his part in allowing the Court to be misled as to his true financial circumstances.”

    This is an admission that he allowed the court to be misled as to his true financial circumstances. This is about as far from “white lie” as you can get. Imagine how the cross-examination will go when he takes the stand. “Isn’t it true that you admitted that you misled the Court about your financial status when seeking bond?” “Your wife lied as well, didn’t she?” “You knew that your financial status was an important issue, didn’t you?” “But you lied anyway?” “You are facing a far more important decision today than just bail aren’t you Mr. Zimmerman?” “If found guilty, you could spend a lot of time in jail, right?” “Isn’t the incentive to lie today far greater than it was at the bond hearing?”

    If he denies any of these questions he will be impeached with the admission in MOM’s motion. He accepted responsibility for misleading the court. If GZ responds that, “I was scared. I had never been through a bond hearing before and didn’t know what to say,” etc., the prosecutor’s question will be, “Isn’t the same true about his trial?” “Aren’t you scared about the verdict of this trial?” “Why wouldn’t you be lying on the stand at trial if you would lie at a simple bond hearing where there is much less at stake?”

    The fun the prosecution will have with this will be neverending. And before anyone questions admissibility, there is a Florida rule:

    803(18) ADMISSIONS.–A statement that is offered against a party and is:
    (a) The party’s own statement in either an individual or a representative capacity;
    (b) A statement of which the party has manifested an adoption or belief in its truth;
    (c) A statement by a person specifically authorized by the party to make a statement concerning the subject;
    (d) A statement by the party’s agent or servant concerning a matter within the scope of the agency or employment thereof, made during the existence of the relationship; or
    (e) A statement by a person who was a coconspirator of the party during the course, and in furtherance, of the conspiracy. Upon request of counsel, the court shall instruct the jury that the conspiracy itself and each member’s participation in it must be established by independent evidence, either before the introduction of any evidence or before evidence is admitted under this paragraph.

    So, in cross-examination, the prosecutor will most likely be able to follow with this line of questioning. The above rule makes it clear that a party is bound by the statements of his agent. There is no clearer agency relationship than attorney-client. The attorney here made the admission on behalf of his client and thereby binds the client to it. There is a wealth of case law on this mainly on the federal side. US v. McKeon from the 2nd circuit is the most well known of the opinions. So GZ is screwed. His only out is to disavow his attorneys statement in the motion. One defendant in a federal case in the SDNY successfully argued the attorney made the statement without his knowledge and without his consent. GZ would need to act quickly or he waives that exception. And at $450 per hour, I would be questioning why my attorney made this HUGE mistake. From my perspective, it is because MOM is too wrapped up in pandering for more funds from the public and making the rounds on media circuit.

  34. Finally, I will leave with my review of the statement of GZ’s former fiance, just for gossips sake. In her statement, GZ’s fiance tells the investigators that she has seen GZ several times during 2010 and 2011 (while GZ is married to Shellie) and that GZ has complained that he wants children, but Shellie doesn’t. Even if you aren’t the jealous type, this would most likely anger you if you did not know that your husband was seeing his ex-fiance and complaining about the most personal aspects of your marriage. Hmmmmm wonder how Shellie will react.

      • I agree Loree – I would be furious and he would have more lumps and bumps on his head than what he claims Trayvon gave him. In fact, I am not too sure I would stick around, I am that much of a stickler about loyalty in a relationship. I don’t know that I could ever trust you again….and I would definitely start wondering if I was willing to spend up to five years in prison for you. Wonder if Shellie is thinking along those lines. LOL

        • LOL
          I would do almost anything for my husband. Lie in court is not one of them. Listening to their conversations from the jail, left me with the impression that she is willing to lie, and do anything for him. How far is she willing to go is the question. Love makes you do all kind of things even though those things that can hurt you, especially if you are a woman. Considering how much GZ lies and has a knack of getting out of situations with his story telling, I believe she wants to believe that he is telling the truth even though in the back of her mind she knows it not to be true. IMO I am kind of glad that she didn’t see anything funny about the hoodie remark. That is the only thing I have found that gives her some sort of pass for me.

          • and one more thing small thing in her favor, was her telling him in the jail house calls, the donated money was there for bond, she said that’s what its for. She gets another small pass for that, even though she went ahead and lied in court anyway.

            • Yes, it is unfortunate, but I am afraid she looks to him on what to do. If he truly loved her, he would not let her take the fall for this – I would do whatever I could do to get the charges against her dropped….even if it was make a plea deal. Because I don’t know how she is going to get out of it otherwise.

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