BccList.com Mentioned in the Miami Herald

The following is an interesting article by Frances Robles of the Miami Herald regarding “amateur sleuths” blogging about the George Zimmerman – Trayvon Martin shooting — I’m sincerely honored that BccList.com is mentioned…

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/trayvon-martin/article1941789.html

3 things worth noting…

1) Dan Linehan from Wagist.com insists Zimmerman was the person heard screaming for help in one of the 911 calls. There’s absolutely nothing credible to support this assertion.

Two independent forensics experts said it was Trayvon crying for help. (edit: One forensics expert said it was NOT Zimmerman screaming for help and one expert said it WAS Trayvon’s voice) And, the FBI only stated they couldn’t confirm with 100% certainty who was heard.

In fact, nobody has said it was accused murderer yelling for help other than Zimmerman (and his family). Zimmerman (and family), having already lied under oath, have also said his mouth was being covered by Trayvon during the scuffle. But, of course, there are no breaks heard in the screams for help leading up to the fatal gunshot. Keep in mind, as noted in evidence dump #2, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancée said the injunction he filed in response to her’s was basically a mirror image of what actually happened the night of their fight in 2005.

2) Did Trayvon Martin get denied a cigar at 7/11 and then have the hooded guys buy him one? It doesn’t matter – at all – to his murder later that night but…

After (possibly) being denied tobacco at the 3:02 mark of the below video, Trayvon pays for his snacks, leaves, 3 hooded guys come in complaining about the weather (6:26 mark), they ask for 3 and then 4 cigars, leave, and a figure (possibly Trayvon) is seen walking left to right past the store window at the 9:14 mark.

To clearly reiterate, Trayvon Martin (possibly) obtaining a cigar obviously doesn’t justify being murdered by a crazy armed vigilante.

3) Jeralyn Merritt from TalkLeft.com apparently believes harassment, assault, aggravated stalking, Murder 2 (I’ll add the possibility of a premeditated Murder 1 charge), etc. are legal.

Moreover, before accusing Trayvon Martin of doubling back, she may want to check out map 2 which explains the 2+ minute gap in Zimmerman’s statement and coordinates well with Brandy Green’s, Witness #8’s, and Witness #2’s statements:

https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing-v-2.jpg

Then again, debating George Zimmerman supporters is worthless.

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

137 thoughts on “BccList.com Mentioned in the Miami Herald

    • Omg I think we should all raise our glasses to Frances Robles!! Note to GZ our so-called web sleuthing seem to have hit a sore spot… have noticed lately an uncanny attempt on their part to overcome what is being discussed here. Unlike GZ it might do him well to remember this….A lie travels all around the world before the truth gets up and puts it’s shoes on. The truth is awake…expect the search for it to continue.

    • Yes, well earned!
      But why do people always use “woman and multiple cats” to metaphorically describe a wacko? Why never a man and/or dogs? My 2 dogs feel very slighted by this…they believe any news is good news

      Quote from article”:Some woman sitting behind her computer with nine cats knows more about the case than anybody” said by Jose Baez

      Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/04/v-fullstory/2933157/the-trayvon-martin-truth-squad.html#storylink=cpy

      • “My 2 dogs feel very slighted by this…they believe any news is good news.”

        Hahah.

        My favorite part of Baez’ cat comment is that it was included at the very end of article where Frances Robles’ reports most of the bloggers she interviewed were males. And, I will confirm that I have — and never will — own even a single cat.

        • Christopher, Christpher, Christopher, you are missing out on some wonderful experiences. Cats are as loving and varied in their ways as dogs. Dependent, loving lap sitters. My ex got our cats and I got pups but I miss those furry guys. In fact, on the the 2 dogs I call myself, one is a mean little toad who , in spite of not having any teeth, is dangerous to brush. She’s laying right beside me so I best end this tirade against Cujo the shihtzu.
          Signed,
          The lady sitting at her computer w/ 2 dogs behind her

          • My experiences — via friends & family — are limited to cats that spray everywhere, smell the place up like shiat/litter box, hide 24/7, put their a$$es in your face, and/or attack when when you walk within a few feet of them.

            So, I will pass! Hahaha!🙂

        • The nuthouse blog (is that the appropriate appellation?) seems to think that there’s really “…..an unknown woman with 9 cats who is destroying the legal universe by discussing the State Vs. Zimmerman.”

          Of course, they’re bashing the article, but one of the commenters over there was glad of the “mention of AZ Watermelon (not ice tea) drink, TM interaction with 3 teens at 7-11….and purchase of a cigar…brings [their] comments out to mainstream viewership”

          We’ve discussed here how the cigar is a non-issue, but I can understand how they’d try to make it an issue. What I don’t understand is the beef with the AZ watermelon drink versus ice tea? Of all the things to pick apart, why is this important? Can someone explain this to me?

            • @NLME, you better take some antibacterial wipes with you if you’re going to TCTH, I always feel a bit icky after landing there.

            • What a worthless blog. It’s a bunch of people saying the “other side” is wrong without any examination of evidence.

              Note: I only read a few Zimmerman related postings before giving up. So, maybe I missed something.

            • It is a worthless blog, I was just mentioning it as he has a posting “Blah…blah…blah…” on Aug. 5 responding specifically to the Miami Herald article for those interested or brave enough to venture over there. He claims that there were treepers that were contacted by Robles but that they refused her. And now they’re balking at the fact their “arguments” are not fairly presented in the media? Well make a logical, coherent argument and maybe it would be! Funny, I always see an ad on that blog for Luminosity.com that says “Improve your brain”. Guess the contributors over there never bother to do so.

            • @NLME, Oh no, I didn’t take offense to that, I was just following up on my quest to let people know about the post as it related to the article. Your disgust with that site in general is totally understandable…..

          • @was so interesting
            The nuthouse blog is jumping on the watermelon, skittles, cigar nonissue because watermelon drink, another fruit candy (but it isn’t Skittles-forget what the name is) and cough syrup ,otc DXM,make a drowsy mild drug called Lean. And the cigar is used to pack pot in. What they don’t mention is no cigar was found on him, skittles and drink weren’t open and he didn’t have the cough syrup. So they are trying to deflect the fact they don’t have an issue onto an unopened can of watermelon flavored tea and the wrong kind of unopened candy. Too bad, no cigar (for them)–couldn’t resist

            I’ll ask them for the recipe so we can all make it and toast them, symbolically of course.

            Good night all,
            Granny- she of the harbourer of weird trite facts

            • @ 2dogsonly and @ everybody else who replied. Ohhhhh I see, thanks! I guess I should be glad I’m so sheltered I don’t know these things, or glad that I haven’t spent enough time on pro-GZ blogs to find this out. So if a hoodie, any kind of juice and any kind of fruit candy makes a thug, then I think I have a 5 year old thug living under my roof right now. Wow!

          • @NLME

            Your *first* trip over to TCTH? Tack on another beer (or ten) to the tally for viewing that.🙂

            Btw, by any chance, do you have Italian blood in ya?

          • WSO i saw that post, i went there specifically to look for a reaction because i knew they’d have their knickers in a twist. Stinks of jealousy to me. As if their readers declined to comment, i can’t imagine that ever happening, i think it’s more likely that they were not important or intelligent enough to get a mention. I hope Robles does a review on the disgusting racism and bigotry that this case has brought out. Most GZ supporters cry about the treatment whites have received by racist blacks. They also claim that they are not racist, but then in the next sentence vomit some of the most vile racist propaganda i’ve ever read….oh but they’re not racist. She could get a few interesting screen caps i’m sure.

          • Actually, I believe it is Sprite and Jolly Ranchers plus DXM that is supposed to make lean, but this is TCTH…if it doesn’t fit their narrative, god dammit, they will make it fit! Who cares if it’s, y’know, true or not. Let’s just go by the hacked social media sites and believe everything we read on them!

            It must be a hard life for them being so damn stupid.

          • The brand name of the drink Trayvon bought is Arizona Iced Tea. They’re saying that he bought the watermelon version of it – there are multiple flavors – and “intended” to mix it with skittles to make “lean”, as mentioned by 2dogsonly, below. It isn’t really important at all except to show that he has to have been a “thug” (therefore deserving of his fate).

          • If the argument is that TM is a habitual “lean” drinker and was already high (from drinking earlier and not with the unopened can and skittles he just bought), then wouldn’t it make him slow and uncoordinated (hence, walking leisurely), not a three armed mutant ninja that GZ can’t overcome? On the other hand, with no evidence that TM was high at the time, then it’s only about trying to carve out an unsavory image of the victim. Either way, I don’t see how either angle is going to help the defense.

          • Hey.. Anybody here tried the beers that taste like margaritas? Very tasty I say.

      • I believe Baez was describing not a wacko, but a crowd-sourced Miss Marple. He didn’t say the cat lady THINKS she knows. He said she KNOWS.

        NLME: you need to convince a cat person friend to get a Maine Coon. They don’t hide, attack or exhibit other psycho-cat behavior. Friendly, sweet… of course they do put their butts in you face now and then – they ARE cats.

        • The sweetest cats. I rescued one who was knocking on heaven’s door. She was so bedraggled looking, my daughter wouldn’t touch her. She just became gorgeous! If she noticed I wasn’t in her sight, she would start meowing and searching for me. Drove my husband bonkers if I was out of town. He said he just had to carry her as she would start up again when he put her down. She wasn’t like that w/ me…just wanted to know where I was. She lived 13 yrs. after we found her.
          She had zero animal hunting instinct. The other cat’s tail would twitch fast if he saw a bird. Not hers..one day it slightly moved like a really tiny twitch and stopped. She was done with that hunting ….time for a snack🙂
          Been gone for 5-6 yrs. still miss her

  1. I’ve seen chatter all over the place about Trayvon’s purchase of a cigar (or the surrogate’s purchase) and can only reply, like you, “So what? That means it’s okay for him to have been killed by GZ??!” I don’t know of the law that punishes under-age smoking with death. It seems that Zimmerman’s supporters are desperate to find *some* reason for it to be okay that he shot a teenager with no cause.

    Congratulations to both you and Tchoupi. It’s been some monstrous (read that: admirable) work from both of you. I’ve been lurking here since the first Zimmerman article but prefer to pack my brain with information, rather than comment.

    Aside to NLME: please wave @TC for me. I assume it’s your home, given the review of 7 Monks. I’m in the southwest now, but spent many years there and still pine to throw my body in the water @East Bay. We don’t have water here.😉

    • Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting — I truly appreciate it.

      I definitely don’t understand why Zimmerman supporters would bring up (the possibility of) Trayvon having a cigar. Who knows if during the trial we’ll hear more about a cigar that Trayvon (possibly) obtained that night?

      And, I wish I called Traverse City home — wonderful city even if it was just a mini vacation!🙂 And, 7 Monks was definitely legit!

    • Good work everyone! No, smoking a cigar doesn’t matter. The defense would be wasting their time tracking down the three stooges.

        • At the “worst”, the defense would find out that TM asked them to buy a cigar. We already say “so what” to that. On the other hand, they could testify on TM’s demeaner at the time, that he wasn’t high (to emphasize what we already know from the toxicology report). However, would the stooges admit to an illegal act of buying tobacco for a minor? I actually hate smoking for the smell and health reasons and wouldn’t condone teenagers especially to do it, but in this case, I do hope that they got him a cigar and that he got to enjoy it on his last walk home….

          • “…I do hope that they got him a cigar and that he got to enjoy it on his last walk home….”

            Me too.

            Also, is anyone else seeing the comments (and other stuff that’s usually not in italic) in italic? I know I didn’t drink that much to cause me to be seeing the text all slanty, LOL.

  2. Great article! Gee NLME i was expecting to see just a mention but BccList was featured heavily, well done to you, Tchoupi and Whonoze. Good to see even a pro-Zim supporter even admitting GZ’s description of how he shot the bad guy is complete fiction. Well done, people are noticing your hard and fair work.

    • Filexican used to be a pro-Zimm supporter. He is not in the Pro-Trayvon camp.

      Hi jo! Waving…been buried and need to get caught up in the other threads.🙂

    • Yes. Flexican is the anti-diwataman. Enjoyed his posts for a while. Wish he’d make his points without all that foul language, though.

      • how do you guys know about all these people, lol. I am feeling very sheltered from the world, i only come here to read what people i trust say and am insulated from the whack jobs on other sites haha. I’m to scared to venture out, i wish to remain here, in the fetal position, where i find comfort, haha.

  3. Anybody else notice that the treepers weren’t mentioned in the Miami Herald’s article? Or did I miss that?

    Also…

    Where’s tchoupi?? He contacted them and got a great mention, too. Who knew he/she was an engineer with a Ph.D in physics to boot! Whonoze made it into the mentions, too. Congrats to all!

    I feel honored to correspond with all y’all experts, media marketeers and now celebs! 🙂

    This story truly made my day! I hope you all keep up the good work. It really is remarkable that so many people are interested in finding justice.

    On another note, this reporter strikes me as one of the good ones. Maybe people with accurate info will feel more comfortable engaging her. If nothing more, because of our collective sentiment and willingness to use the web to vocalize our opinions, at least we can be grateful that there won’t be a Zimmerman copycat seeking to profit by killing a young black teen walking home from the candy store.

    Again! Good job bcclist!

  4. Regarding the three guys that came in after Trayvon Martin left the seven-eleven…

    Why would Trayvon Martin’s hoodie be more intimidating to white people than the completely covered faces of the three guys entering the seven-eleven store with fully covered faces? Is a singular black teen in a hoodie with his face exposed really that scary??

    What was the Oak Creek Sikh temple shooter wearing?

    • @CSFC, I have to admit that I picked up the name “3 stooges” for those three guys from the pro-GZ people. I’m using it because I don’t find it demeaning to them. In fact, I think it fits because they’re goofing around. They sound very casual with the clerk, so they might be regulars. Notice right before he left (at 8:42), the guy with the white hoodie cinched around his face pulled it down exposing his head, and put his cap back on. If it was true they bought the cigar for TM, he may have just been pretending to hide from the security camera for this “oh so illicit act”.

      • @Was So Interesting

        I agree. Those kids over TM would have got more of a look from me than TM would if I was in that store that night. They look like young kids acting like a bunch of silly fools. We’ve all been there!

        Who cares if they bought TM a cigar? So far, no evidence that it was gutted to make a blunt…even if so, not an offense punishable by death!

        Just because he may have had someone buy him a B&M does not mean he was high (tox doesn’t support that assertion) or intending to get high.

        The only thing I ever wanted when I tried weed was a taco…or 5…and maybe some Doritos.😛

    • I wish I had the answer to your first question. Nothing about TM in that video would have stood out to me if I were in that 7-11; I would probably give a look to the three hooded guys, though. Interesting that the clerk doesn’t seem particularly disturbed by these individuals.

      I also say, “So what?” in regards to them possibly buying TM a B&M (or some other tobacco product). I don’t really give a f***! I may or may not condone it, but I’m not going to condemn him for it. TM has no verified/proven history of aggression or violence. GZ does. If TM was such a big, bad, black man then where are people like W9 for GZ making complaints about TM?

      • yes the cigar is not important unless Trayvon tried to beat GZ to death with it. Unfortunately any pro-zimmer thinks it proves Tray was a thug who deserved to get shot.

        As for the 3 stooges, they were definately more intimidating looking imo, not that that makes them thugs either, but zim isn’t going to take on 3 kids when he could barely contain 1…and they were in a car so wouldn’t feel menaced by him creeping.

    • “What was the Oak Creek Sikh temple shooter wearing?”

      White skin and a shaved head. Seriously, though, I don’t know what he was wearing. He probably looked normal. The way someone looks only can tell us so much.

      My heart goes out to the families and any affected by this shooting. When will people stop letting their ignorance and hate consume and control them? We don’t get to harm people simply because we don’t like them!

  5. @NLME –

    “Moreover, before accusing Trayvon Martin of doubling back, she may want to check out map 2 which explains the 2+ minute gap in Zimmerman’s statement and coordinates well with Brandy Green’s, Witness #8′s, and Witness #2′s statements:”

    To me, this is the most important distinction of all else said. What was the criminal doing for 2+ minutes? Why is Trayvon Martin’s 2+ minutes (while chatting up his girl/potential girl/long time friend) the initial focus of those who automatically need an accounting of the black teen’s time even though he wasn’t the one committing a crime.

    I thank you for pushing this point forward! Eternally grateful!!!

    • Yeah, the part of TM “lingering” too long, which Jeralyn states might suggest TM was the one to attack. Really? Give me a break. We are not allowed to freely linger around an area where we are staying? If he was bored and wanted to take a walk, he couldn’t do that? He was supposed to read GZ’s mind? What?

      GZ is the one who calls NEN. GZ is the one who states I was just looking for an address (HONEST!), and I just walked up and back down then he beat me up (waaah)! Except, we know for FACT that’s a LIELIELIE! So, we know GZ’s lying about what he did. There’s a missing gap of time that is not part of his story. And some want to question TM? LOL. That’s some stupid shit right there.

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” – U.S. Declaration of Independence

      Why did TM have a time limit on how long he was allowed to linger? Who established this time limit?

      • “Lingering” or “hiding” ? Has anyone posed the scenario that TM was stationary that whole time until GZ found him? Maybe he was hiding behind the divider between one of the townhomes after he rounded the corner at the top of the T and watched GZ go past and then come back. Notice there are short bushes next to the dividers. Hence the original “jumped out of the bushes” claim. Just because TM was the first to speak and says “What are you following me for” doesn’t mean that he was walking towards GZ. It just means that he was found and wants an answer from the creep. This would be consistent with DeeDee saying that the man was getting closer. Not that he was chasing from behind but that TM could see him getting closer to where he was hiding. This of course would discount the witness seeing shadows running, but her testimony was unclear and somebody had suggested that she could have seen Austin running after his dog.

      • yes Trayvon lived there. What is stranger, being in your own back yard or lingering in someone elses back yard? Zim deviated from the direction he was suppose to be heading, and deviated from the mode of transport he was taking, wandered into someone elses back yard, and “lingered” for over two minutes in the rain and the dark, with a torch and a gun, but that is more acceptable than a kid “lingering” in his own back yard.

        Trayvon was doing nothing wrong. Nor did he just do anything wrong. Nor was he going someplace where he was planning to do wrong. He was where he was suppose to be. Zimmerman was where he was not suppose to be, for no reason other than to follow someone completely innocent of any wrong doing. If he just went straight to target, if he just walked straight back to his car etc etc. If Trayvon was lingering in GZ’s back yard it would be different, but GZ was in trayvons back yard, being a creep, with a gun.

        Those blogs that make bullshit excuses for GZ are infuriating.

        • I’ve always tried to concentrate on what can be proven in court… that is what seems to matter in the end. But regarding where TM went, what evidence is there that he went ANYWHERE except to between where the tan bag and his cell phone were found? None.

          IMO he rounded the corner of 2112 TTL and “ran out” his sprint to JohnW6’s backyard, and was right there in plain sight the whole time. There’s no evidence he went anywhere else. Dee Dee mentions walking but of course has no way to know if he walked anywhere or not.

          As for GZ, the timing suggests he walked fast of jogged to the T and didn’t see TM (saying, “he ran”), but keep in mind he was facing east, traveling east, and in the dark once his headlights went off. TM was “behind” him in a sense if GZ faced mostly east. He probably looked down the sidewalk and didn’t see the teen and so assumed he did not go that way.

          GZ likely stuck to the pavement and sidewalk, but TM would have already walked thru wet grass using the shortcut to enter the complex near 1400 RVC. The placement of the “debris field” and other aspects of the timing of the NE call make me think TM took this hard-to-see grass/dirt path to make the corner.

          Taffee's idea of where GZ was on the ground. footpath in bg

          When GZ exits his vehicle, he muttered his famous “effin’ goons/punks/whatever” comment in regards to something -and I think that something was the timing of TM making the corner and getting out of GZ’s sightline. GZ may have been busy securing his car keys, gun, car door, flashlight(s), etc and not really seen TM round the corner. It seems clear he saw him heading into the cut thru path, but it’s speculative to think he saw which way he went, given his actions after.

          All of this is speculative, but the timing fits almost exactly to the average speed of 5 feet per second that TM likely approximated in his walk from the mailbox kiosk to the start of the cut thru sidewalk. I tend to think this is where TM began to run, and of course elicited the comment from GZ of “sh*t, he’s running.” GZ is frustrated that he saw the kid run, and got out of his car ready to pursue but by the time he starts his fast walk/fat boy jog of around 7fps, he’s lost sight of his prey. He’s already said “these axxholes, they always get away” and now his self-fullfilling prophecy has come true. He’s let the youth “get away” and spends the next minutes trying to rectify that. The idea that he is looking for a street sign is hogwash and no jury is going to buy that.

          So what are the actions of TM during the “missing minutes?” Again, I think the EVIDENCE and testimony of Dee Dee shows that he stood in John’s backyard and spoke on the phone to Dee Dee, and there is NO evidence that he did anything else.

          If there was a punch to the nose, the testimony AND evidence seem to suggest it happened near where the fight was witnessed on the ground. Again, the “stumbling” just isn’t credible. The idea of a ~45 foot stagger seems ludicrous to me, especially given GZ’s many statements that say he was punched to the ground, essentially, not that he was hit and then staggered in straight line due south, while TM did nothing.

          That’s why I think TM was never north of the tan bag, or south of his cell phone. There’s nothing besides speculation and the word of his admitted killer to put him anywhere else.

          • I think DeeDee’s statement could also be interpreted to show Trayvon was near Brandy Green’s porch when the second chase and subsequent confrontation occurred.

            Remember — Zimmerman could have just as likely been facing west towards the clubhouse in his parked Ridgeline. If so, the back entrance is not east of his parked vehicle. It’s southeast. Twin Trees runs south and then east.

            Did Trayvon take this route instead of running between the buildings? There are witness statements — including DeeDee’s — that make this route plausible.

            This evidence dump/drip sucks. Is this typical of “high profile” court cases? When does all the evidence — like dashboard cam footage from the responding police vehicles — need to be submitted and released (as applicable) by?

          • Willis,

            I really think you should give more consideration to DeeDee’s story. I can sum up her story like this.
            1) TM starts running
            2) He is out of breath when he hides. I don’t know what were his physical capabilities but it suggests that he ran some distance longer than 50feet. We know he was hiding as he lowered his voice and as GZ couldn’t even see TM’s shadow moving along the straight path.
            3) He was still out of breath when he decides to walk again. He decided to walk again after he felt confident he lost GZ. He says he isn’t going to run because he is right by his father’s house.
            4) A “couple” of minutes later GZ is back behind TM again. The couple minutes probably lasted less than 2 minutes. In any case, it probably was more than 30sec which would have allowed him to walk at least one townhouse block to the south.
            5) She describes a chase where TM refuses to run since he still is out of breath and where GZ is getting real close. She also describes the heavy breath of GZ suggesting that he too was out of breath.

            So, DeeDee describes a chase that covers about 4min from the “Shit, he’s running” in GZ’s NEN call to ~30sec before the 1st 911 call. That chase involves some running, some hiding, some walking home, some walking away from GZ. I really don’t see TM staying by JohnW6’s until GZ finds him again.

      • Exactly. I don’t understand this “TM lingered too long” perspective. Was there a curfew? This is sort of like arguing “if that child hadn’t taken so long to cross the street, I wouldn’t have run her down with my car.”

        • Nope. No curfew. Just an accounting needed for the black teen who wasn’t breaking the law on the word of a vigilante who took advantage of his ability to “pass” for white.

      • Ohhh, that’s easy….he “may have stumbled”….fully 45 feet farther south, see? (As told during the re-enactment) This is – as someone before me has written – like “stumbling” from Home plate to first base. Uh-huh. ***nodding*** Plausible? I don’t think so.

        • Not that it matters but the distance between home plate and first base is 90 feet — so, Zimmerman said he stumbled half of that distance. This is still not believable.

          Why doesn’t any sort of distance to the south of the T matter? In the unlikely event that Trayvon struck Zimmerman from behind coming from the south/south east as indicated in the reenactment video, the fight would have progressed north/north west.

          • Point well taken. Not being a sports fan, I took someone else’s statement of the distance as accurate. I have to say that the very first time I watched the re-enactment, Zimmerman’s demonstration of where it all occurred struck me as odd. Even the investigator half-scowled and said “Here?” (or words to that effect) giving Zimmerman the opportunity to clarify/correct.

            By this question, NLME, “Why doesn’t any sort of distance to the south of the T matter?”, are you saying that it doesn’t matter?

            I did battle with an individual on a comment board who said “Bar-room brawls go all over the place…” to which I responded “But this wasn’t a “brawl” – Zimmerman states on several occasions that he went down immediately, right at this spot and was “pinned” by Trayvon, at which point he shot Trayvon. So either you trust Zimmerman’s version of events or you can safely discount large parts of his narrative. He does NOT want it known that he pursued Trayvon down that walk. That would make him the clear aggressor.

            And yes, I agree that debris indicates the direction in which the the fight moved…and it wasn’t toward Zimmerman’s vehicle.

            • There are lots of injuries to the aggressor of a nasty bar room brawl, too. Trayvon had a small cut below one knuckle.

              Yeah, I was saying the fight wouldn’t have moved towards the direction of the punch/”aggressor” unless Trayvon punched Zimmerman (highly unlikely) and started running (not skipping) home again.

  6. I am not internet savvy at all and I don’t know how google works, but now all i have to do is type in bcclist and this site is the first one that shows…i use to have to search for it. I think that’s pretty cool.

  7. Is that…is that…(*GASP*) A GRILL?!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/05/ryan-lochtes-parents-face_n_1743686.html

    Whaaat, white people wear grills, too?! Get outta here! Is Lochte a thug for his like TM was for wearing one?

    “Smile fo me daddy
    (What you lookin at)
    Lemme see ya grill
    (Let you see my what)
    Ya, ya grill ya, ya, ya grill
    (Rob da jewelry store and tell em make me a grill)
    Smile fo me daddy
    (What you lookin at)
    I want to see your grill
    (You wanna see my what)
    Ya, ya grill ya, ya, ya grill
    (Had a whole top diamonds and da bottom rows gold)”

    Thanks Nelly and Paul Wall for this lyrical gem, LOL.

    • oh dear Nelly. I haven’t liked any of his music except that one “just a dream” which reminds me of trayvon and makes me cry like a girl. For some reason i just imagine Tray when i hear it.

      “i was thinking bout her
      thinking bout me
      thinking bout us
      what we gonna be
      opened my eyes, yeah,
      it was only just a dream

      so i travelled back,
      down that road,
      will she come back,
      no one knows
      i realised, yeah,
      it was only just a dream

      If you ever loved somebody put your hands up
      and now they’re gone and you’re wishing you
      could give them everything”…

      Don’t know why, sometimes i think it’s a song he might listen to while imagining what is to come in the future, sometimes i imagine it from the point of view of loved ones that had their beloved son/brother taken too soon. I start crying at the music intro.

      Damn you nelly, who knew you could be so deep.

      • Haha! Since the jewels change, I’m assuming this is removable grills.

  8. tchoupi-

    I can appreciate the scenario you posit, but where is any real evidence to say anything like that happened? GZ had all the time in the world to walk all around that end of the complex, but absent an eyewitness, some dropped objects, etc, there doesn’t seem to be any way to prove it.

    Also, I just think Dee Dee wasn’t there, and so what she’s saying can fit a lot of scenarios, as we have seen with those who think Trayvon DID go home and then came back with different pants – but no baseball bat, etc. I tend to stick to the simplest explanations. IN then end, what either of us think won’t amount to much. It’s what a jury thinks that matters.

    Here are some things GZ COULD have done in the “missing minutes” :

    #1 in a series - what did GZ have TIME to do?

    But in the end what matters in a court of law is what can be proven by the prosecution. Someone closed the gap. Was it the teen who ran away, or was it the guy who chased the teen down TTL with his car, jumped out when the kid ran away, and lied to investigators about where he was and when he went there?

    I don’t see the point in trying to “prove” much about the missing minutes other than they passed, and that GZ is probably lying about how HE says he spent them – standing at RVC fiddling with his flashlight for the whole time.

    And again, the scattered debris is the only real evidence that can’t be impeached in court. Eyewitnesses are unreliable, GZ is proven (IMO) to be pushing a false narrative, and a jury is going to have to deliberate based on a narrative the prosecution presents, versus GZ’s inconsistent and contradictory story.

    The less speculative the prosecution’s story is, the better. I tend to think they are gong to leave it somewhat vague other than to say GZ is pushing a false narrative, the injuries don’t match and W2 and Dee Dee’s accounts differ from GZ’s.

    If you want to speculate about what actually happened, the possibilities are endless. At the end of the day, someone closed a gap, and an unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a man who has zero credibility. I think a jury will draw the right conclusions. The crowd at TalkLeft seems to think that credibility isn’t an issue, but in my mind it’s the ONLY issue that counts when the other witness is dead.

    • Are you suggesting the missing 2+ minutes starts after Zimmerman leaves his truck parked west of the bend on Twin Trees? I think that’s what I’m seeing. I believe the missing 2+ minutes starts after the call is ended.

      Also, not in a snarky tone, but you say with confidence there isn’t proof to support claim XYZ — by any chance, do you know when all the evidence will be released? Nobody seems to know this answer.

      • No, I don’t know when the rest of the discovery will be public… and it’s foolish to guess at what may or may not be in it.

        What we do know is that the prosecution claims they have multiple witnesses to a chase. What we don’t know is, are they bluffing? Maybe Dee Dee and W2 are the plural witness. Maybe not – maybe witness 10 is a surprise witness, who knows? I tend to find Dee Dee quite credible myself, but who knows how a jury will react. W2 seems to have backed off her initial statement

        But from what the prosecution has put forth in the “mini trials”t that the defense has tried to impose on preliminary proceedings, I’m catching the drift that they want to keep the story simple: GZ profiled, pursued and shot an unarmed teenager who was walking home, and his statements to police were contradictory, evolving and inconsistent.

        I also think since the FBI has said it’s a wash for experts to say who was telling for help, the prosecution is going to put Trayvon’s mother on the stand and she’s going to say it was her son calling for help, and that’s going to influence the jury, regardless of who it actually was.

        • The FBI said they couldn’t confirm with 100% certainty who was screaming for help. Could they eliminate the possibility of Zimmerman crying for help though?

          The FBI also concluded Zimmerman wasn’t racist in the opinion of the Sanford Police Department. I have a feeling we’ll be hearing more about the FBI’s specific opinion.

        • I listen to the screams and hear an adolescent boy whose voice is in the process of changing or recently changed. You only have to look at the recent photos of TM’s face to see the distinctive stage of development he is in. I think a reasonable jury will hear the same thing. I wonder what is the opinion of the people here regarding whose voice it is?

          • I don’t think a jury will all come to a unanimous conclusion about whose voice is calling for help. Therefore they are going to look elsewhere for elements of the case to make a final decision on, IMO. Is anyone here “certain beyond a reasonable doubt” as to who is calling for help? IMO the FBI’s determination makes it anyone’s guess.

            Personally I tend to think it is GZ calling for help in illegally detaining the teen, but I can’t say I’m certain beyond a reasonable doubt that I am right in thinking so. It’s also possible that it’s TM and GZ claims it’s himself for the purposes of pushing a false narrative. He lacks a good witness to back him up.

            If I were a jury member I’d concentrate on GZ’s credibility, myself. Someone who lies to investigators about simple things like where he was when he said “he ran,” is not someone whose self defense story I’d believe. GZ claims in the third and final interview on 2/29, when he is played the NEN call recording that he was all the way to RVC when that part of the call happened. He’s not “mistaken,” IMO, he is lying since he’s consistently tried to obscure the fact that he was following the teen. This “inconsistency” is part of a larger pattern if “inconsistencies” IMO and proof he pushed a false narrative to police, trying to obscure his pursuit of the teen, which is not in an of itself illegal, but certainly suspicious and the act of lying to investigators IS a crime.

            Getting back to the “help” cries, there may be more than one voice on the 911 call, and that’s food for further confusion IMO. I think the FBI opened the door to competing subjective claims, but the prosecution might want to point out that ofc Tim Smith claims he heard GZ tell EMTs he called for help, but the EMTs themselves don’t seem to recall this statement.

            I find T.Smith’s initial report to be suspicious but it’s difficult to impeach a police officer in a case without some very strong proof that he is acting improperly. Even if (speculation follows) Mark Osterman was the person GZ was speaking to, and he is somehow in cahoots with T Smith, and has been caught by investigators, charged with tampering with evidence (participating in moving the car, at least, or worse) and Osterman has turned state’s evidence, he’s hardly a credible witness himself given that he’s a disgraced former deputy who left his job under a cloud of scandal involving connection to fraud. If it were his word against T. Smith on a matter it may not be enough to impeach the testimony of Smith.

            There’s more to this case than meets the eye I suspect but again think like a prosecutor and you will want to reduce it to what can be proven easily and and beyond a reasonable doubt in court. The rest may or may not be worth mentioning. If a jury is presented with the basic narrative that GZ saw TM, decided he was a “suspect” and not a subject, followed TM into the dark with a loaded gun and a flashlight, and admitted to dispatch that he was following, but later tried to deny this, that when he shot the kid he may not be telling the whole truth about the events surrounding the killing. The state still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ murdered the teen, but absent any credibility to GZ’s stories I think they can gain a conviction based on a few simple circumstantial matters like the superficial nature of the injuries, and testimony of those who heard a more vocal and lengthy struggle than GZ claims. He’s killed the other witness to the fight; that is a serious matter to consider when it can be proven he’s lied to investigators, which is a crime in and of itself.

          • @willisnewton –

            I agree there’s definitely more to this case than meets the eye. I think this case is an eye-opener as to how the law is applied unevenly even before the cops and lawyers get involved. To me, it seems a crime committed based on knowing how to work stereotypes. Of course if I recognize how to do it, so do the criminals. Of course I understand also that this is what’s being fed to us in the media. I mean, after all, I should shirk in fear if a see anyone in a hoodie walking at 7pm in my neighborhood!

    • Willis,

      I’ll try one more time to convince you to consider DeeDee’s statement as her story isn’t compatible with what you’re claiming to be the closest to the evidences that is Trayvon being static by JohnW6’s backyard until GZ find’s him.

      The evidences only suggest that TM & GZ dropped some of their items by the T and by JohnW6’s. All the rest is made of witness statements and conjectures.

      DeeDee tells a story where for ~4min TM is running, then hiding, then walking home then being chased to finally being caught up and bumped in.

      Suzanne Bahadoor tells a story of a chase from south to north.

      Jennifer Lauer explains that the argument was moving south from the T.

      JohnW6 & his now wife Amanda tell the story of an argument moving toward them.

      It is more than one witness telling about a dynamic rather than a static event. I agree that most of them only witnessed what happened in their backyards. But, the simple fact that JohnW6 himself says that they were moving toward his backyard indicates that TM did not stay there idle for 4min. He ended up fighting there.

      • tchoupi-

        You read a lot into Dee Dee’s words. I do think she’s pretty sure Trayvon ran and was quite out of breath, but I don’t have any indication of how LONG he ran from her words.

        Dee Dee: He was telling me like…like he a man watching him, so he like started walking.

        BDLR: He, Trayvon, started walking?

        Dee Dee: He goin’ start walking.

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: And then…the phone hung up. And I call him back again. And then, I say ‘What you doin’?’ and he say he walkin’ and he said this man still following him, behind the car. And I’m like…or like, he told me…he tell me..he put his hoodie on, so I like…

        BDLR: He, Trayvon, put his hoodie on.

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK…

        Dee Dee: Cause, he said it was startin’ a little bit dripping water….

        BDLR: Uh huh.

        Dee Dee: So he put his hoodie on. So I said, ‘What’s going on?’ He said this man is still watching him. Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, go to his dad house. Run to his Dad house.

        BDLR: Go to what?

        Dee Dee: Run to his dad house.

        BDLR: To his dad’s house?

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said. So, next thing I hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’…

        BDLR: So you could tell he was running at that time…

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK, and then what happened?

        Dee Dee: And then…he say he lost him.

        BDLR: He lost..like…the man?

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: So, was Trayvon at that time…you could tell he was like, out of breath, like excited…

        Dee Dee: Yeah. . .

        BDLR: …like, like…

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: Then…

        BDLR: Take your time; I know this is difficult for you

        Dee Dee: He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda change…

        BDLR: Who? Trayvon?

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK, what do you mean by that, his voice changed?

        Dee Dee: [unintelligible] I know he was scare.

        BDLR: I’m sorry?

        Dee Dee: I know he was scare. He…

        BDLR: How..how…could …tell…and I know what you’re trying to tell me, but if you could, describe to me how you could tell he was scared.

        Dee Dee: Voice was getting kind of low…[unintelligible]…breathin’ har’…

        BDLR: So, you could tell he was emotional like somebody who was like in fear?

        Dee Dee: Yeah…he say he lost him…

        BDLR: OK…he was breathing hard?

        Dee Dee: He say he lost him…breathin’ har’, you know. And I like, he goin’…so he say he lost him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad house.

        BDLR: OK, let me make sure I understand that he’s saying that he’s “right by his ass”…meaning the guy is right by Trayvon?

        Dee Dee: No, he say he lost the guy…

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: And then he ran from the back…

        BDLR: Right.

        Dee Dee: He say he lost him.

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: He started walking back again…and I told him ‘Keep runnin’.’

        BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy.

        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: I say, ‘Keep runnin’.’

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house…

        BDLR: OK.

        Dee Dee: So, and in a couple minutes…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. And I say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run cause…I could have known he not going to run, cause he out of breath. and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run. And then he say…I told him, ‘Why you not runnin’? He say, ‘I’m not go’ run,’ cause he tired, but I know he tired.

        end excerpt

        I see that as corroborating a move by TM from the mailboxes after the call died; on reconnect TM is walking down TTL, about to run away from the trailing car. He runs around the corner and stops running. Then yes, he says he will walk the rest of the way home. What actually happend after that is impossible to know.

        GZ seems to pass heading east and TM notes it. Why move? The guy’s on the wrong trail. But yeah, then he comes back and they yella t one another as GZ seems to close the gap. What does it matter where they were? Dee Dee seems to know what she heard. Why do we need to know where this happened? What happened is that one or both parties closed a gap and a physical struggle ensued of some sort. It doesn’t SEEM to have happened where and how GZ says it did, that’s what I think is important.

        I think the prosecution’s best strategy is to leave it at that, more or less. If they can suggest that there was a chase, do so. GZ’s ruined credibility, and the open question of who was calling for help will do the rest. I tend to think that by the time the prosecution is finished, GZ will have little choice but to either take the stand and have his credibility destroyed in person, or NOT take the stand and lose the case. If he swore on a stack of bibles that the sun rose in the east, I’d consult an almanac before I believed him.

        He’s lied to investigators and it can easily be proven all the way up until he told NEN dispatcher Sean “he ran.” Whatever happened after that, I tend to think a jury will just look at what he says happened and assume it is also a lie. That’s what juries do.

        The prosecution need only provide a vague narrative with circumstantial evidence to corroborate partially, just as GZ has a vague narrative and partial corroboration for his account. His just isn’t credible, is all.

        I appreciate your work in trying to figure out what happened in the missing minutes, but IMO it’s all too vague and eyewitnesses are unreliable. I do think the “argument” likely was up by the T in the sense that GZ was once where his keychain flashlight was dropped. But I think he started the argument by spotlighting TM from a distance.

        Then someone closed a gap. Dee Dee seems to say it was GZ who approached TM, which certainly seems more likely given the debris south of the T. The tan 7Eleven bag is as far north as TM can be PROVEN to have ever been. Yes ,people heard noises but no one SAW him there. They could have heard GZ there and TM by the bag. Who can say?

        It seems clear the hit to the nose happened in John’s back yard – thats what GZ actually remembers consistently – a punch that knocked him to the ground and a wrestling match ensuing. How he got there is unknown.

        I think a teenager who is on the phone ALL DAY stays put in one spot quite often. He seems to have been by the mailboxes for a long time. What’s so difficult about placing him in John’s back yard for ~4 minutes?

        GZ’s tactic to cover his actions is to always obscure, omit and obfuscate his trailing actions. That he missed TM the first time he walked the cut thru seems likely to me. He has his dead tactical black flashlight at the T the first time, and I think he wandered to RVC as a natural move to run down the dead ends in the maze. Once he did that and didn’t find the boy, he returned.

        Look at the map I’ve colored here:

        deciphering GZis map?

        The red line is faint, but I think GZ drew it and it leads right to the keychain flashlight.

        here is the plain map, slightly enhanced for contrast:
        GZ'sMap

        I don’t understand why everyone ignores this map. What do you see in that map, and why hasn’t someone demanded a better copy?

        sorry for the length. Cheers, tchoupi and keep up the good work.

  9. I’m sorry that Susan Simpson didn’t get mentioned. http://viewfromll2.com/

    She’s done some valuable work, as have a lot of people. I hope the prosecutor’s office is noticing, and not just MOM’s office.

    I was over at the Herald’s website rather obsessively battling for the facts and common sense in the comments to the article. The racism finally got to be too much. Some Cubans were among the worst. One guy posted the 7-11 video about 10 times, as if just looking at a tall, skinny black teenager in baggy pants and a hood-up sweatshirt buying a drink and candy was proof that TM was a vicious thug. I hope that it persuaded people otherwise.

    • Me too. I loved Susan’s blog. I had to drop out mostly because I don’t understand “open thread” discussions. I’m too anal to work within or outside a box when the box is not defined.

      I will say though, that her analysis and fact-based posts were very interesting to me and her dropping a lawyer’s perspective was very insightful. She’s busy and has a real job as an up and coming attorney at her firm, so I completely understand that she can’t “do this all day”. 🙂

  10. Frances must have some sources or sleuthing ability herself if she was able to dig up Dan Linehan, who hasn’t been seen on the web in months. “Dig up” could be literal, since he doesn’t seem to be aware of anything in the evidence dumps, and has perhaps has had his head in the sand.

    But, seriously NLME, I’d like to see bcclist to have higher standards, including proper attribution, and more accurate representation of the stuff the pro-GZ folks say, which is batcrap crazy enough on its own w/o spinning it even a little.

    1. “Dan Linehart from Wagist.com insists Zimmerman was the person heard screaming for help in one of the 911 calls. There’s absolutely nothing credible to support this assertion…. In fact, nobody has said it was accused murderer yelling for help other than Zimmerman (and his family).”

    It’s “Linehan”. pro-GZ folks believe GZ is credible. They believe RZ Sr. and Jr. are credible. They believe John W6 told the truth and has been intimidated into recanting by the agents of the Black Uprising or it’s race-traitor appeasers.

    “Two independent forensics experts said it was Trayvon crying for help.” That’s not true. They both said it was NOT GZ. they did not say is WAS TM. And calling someone an expert doesn’t make them one. Ed Primeau is an utter bozo. Tom Owen has more credibility, but his “it’s not GZ” opinion was a ‘quick take,’ that did not employ proper scientific method, and could be easily discredited in court. There is other evidence it’s not GZ, including the fact the sound doesn’t fit his description of the struggle (as you noted), the proximity of the last cry to the gunshot, and the SPD’s ‘GZ scream re-enactment’ recording. (Anyone who hasn’t heard this MUST check it out: http://tinyurl.com/cwfmx2u)

    2. “To clearly reiterate, Trayvon Martin (possibly) obtaining a cigar obviously doesn’t justify being murdered by a crazy armed vigilante.”

    To be fair to the Zimmie-tards, we should be clear why they think the cigar is relevant, because the specifics tell us more about their twisted thought than just isolating the cigar and declaring it irrelevant.

    GZ supporters believe his story that TM attacked him. They therefore believe TM was a thug. They believe the ‘liberal’ media have presented him as a squeeky- clean kid, and covered up all indications of his thuggishness. They do not focus on any one piece of counter-evidence, but have instead created a sort of compiled ‘thug-file’ they believe pieces together to show TM was a hoodlum, and thus the kind of person who could credibly been imagined to attack GZ. He was suspended from school (he must have done something BAD!). The Martin family’s assertion that the suspensions were for truancy is probably false. He had been found with a screwdriver in his possession (a BURGLARY tool!). A bag with trace amounts of MJ was found in his possession (he’s not just a pot-head, but a DRUG DEALER, and we all know how violent they are). He had a grill and flipped the bird to the camera. He’s on tape ‘refereeing’ a school fight (obviously he LOVES instigating violence). He wanted wanted the cigar to make a marijuana ‘blunt’ to get high. He bought watermelon Arizona to make “lean” to get high. So he’s a crazy drug-addled punk who looked suspicious to GZ because he WAS “on drugs or something”, and being under the influence he started an assault on the wrong ‘victim’ who bravely stood his ground.

    Of course, from their POV, everything that contradicts their narrative is some form or liberal propaganda: a misreading, distortion, or outright lie.

    So while the cigar seems ridiculous by itself, it’s actually consistent within the larger narrative of pro-GZ crowd, which is ridiculous at a macro-level. They see the whole TM / GZ case as a trope for race relations in the US. They believe that the dominant motive among black males under the age of 35 is to ‘put the hurt on whitey’, and the dominant motive for black males over the age of 35 is to cover for the young bucks ‘putting the hurt on whitey.’ They think the New Black Panther Party is a serious threat for major social violence, not a few media-hyped clowns. They believe Al Sharpton can cause mass rioting all over the country just by saying the word. They believe some kind of race war is imminent, that any white people who have not armed themselves are offering themselves up as sacrifice to the coming dark hordes… So, yeah, the whole deal for them is basically about hating Obama by proxy.

    Cigar -> Blunt -> Marijuana -> Drugs -> Drug Dealer -> Thug -> Hatred of Whites -> Vicious Unprovoked Attacks against good upstanding citizens such as Mr. Zimmerman.

    So, if you look at it that way, the cigar does connect to GZ’s ‘self-defense.’ It really doesn’t do justice to the situation to merely say the purchase of a cigar doesn’t justify a kid being shot. Better IMHO to note that the justification linking the cigar to the shooting is paranoid, hateful, irrational, dangerous, and accepted by way, way too many people.

    • @Whonoze: “Cigar -> Blunt -> Marijuana -> Drugs -> Drug Dealer -> Thug -> Hatred of Whites -> Vicious Unprovoked Attacks against good upstanding citizens such as Mr. Zimmerman. So, if you look at it that way, the cigar does connect to GZ’s ‘self-defense.’ ”
      Do you really think this line of reasoning is going to be presented by O’Mara, IN COURT?

      “Better IMHO to note that the justification linking the cigar to the shooting is paranoid, hateful, irrational, dangerous, and accepted by way, way too many people.”
      Agree completely with this statement. But it comes after your long rant explaining the connections that the pro-GZ people are trying to make to paint him a thug. Yes, agree they are doing that, and I think that has been discussed in many posts here. Hence, the short cut to “It doesn’t matter” , because none of it so far matters as “hard evidence” that TM attacked GZ. This is a blog and still part of the court of public opinion. But by the high standard of a real court, does the cigar really matter???????

      • What cigar? There’s zero evidence that TM ever possessed a cigar, so… end of story. I agree that what can be presented in court is what matters.

        • Yup. Wish I had a botmobile. It’d post all day everywhere…

          “he had no cigar on him”

          “his watermelon arizona can was unopened”

          “his maryjane tests indicated no recent usage”

          “Obama, Clinton and countless others experimented with mj and didn’t pop off black teens walking through their neighborhoods much like where zimmerman rented his home”

          “Obama is not a muslim”

      • @WSI
        Of course I don’t think O’Mara’s going to present anything like that in court. And AFAIK, TM not only didn’t have a cigar, but there’s no evidence he smoked anything on 2/26/2012. To reiterate, I was responding to NLME’s assertion, “Trayvon Martin (possibly) obtaining a cigar obviously doesn’t justify being murdered by a crazy armed vigilante.” The use of ‘obviously’ here is a misrepresentation of GZ supporters. It is not that they are so stupid as to miss the obvious. It is that they start from a world-view so skewed that their interpretations take them down convoluted and bizarre paths.

        In any ‘debate’ it is extremely important to represent the positions of your opponents correctly, for a variety of reasons. I was not ranting. I was recounting (in a somewhat subdued fashion) the rants made by Team Z.

        Getting your opponent’s argument right matters, even if it doesn’t pertain to trial, because some people believe it, and actual courts are NOT isolated from ‘the court of public opinion.’ Also, if you want to effectively rebut your opponent in a way that might actually be persuasive to someone who is not already firmly on ‘your side,’ you have to know how their position actually works in order to take it apart. You cannot simply dismiss it.

        And if we were limiting bcclist to topics that matter as ‘hard evidence in a real court’, over 2/3rds of the posts here would have to be removed. There’s some pretty wacky stuff in these threads, starting with the assorted speculations that GZ went out on a trigger-happy ‘hunting expedition.’ Folks, the first thing he did after locating TM was park his car, pull out his phone and call the police. You don’t do that as part of some nefarious plan unless you’re some kind of “Mission Impossible” super-spy. And that’s just in the movies because I mean, really, Tom Cruise? (L. Ron Hubbard?) Oh I forgot, GZ is just following God’s plan, so God mapped it all out so Timothy Smith would arrive at the site of shooting less than 2 minutes after GZ decimated Trayvon Martin’s ventricle. So clever, that precise timing! I guess that’s why Jehovah is God, and I’m not.

        • @whonoze, thanks for clarifying. And sorry for mis-labeling the pro-GZ rant as your own. I absolutely agree with your points about needing to understand the other side, as it is entirely informative in an open debate. As you’ve seen here, we’ve at times questioned witness statements even when they “weaken” the prosecution’s side.

          Regarding the cigar or cigar/blunt, it is not wholesale dismissal of the issue. But as you stated of the GZ supporters: “It is not that they are so stupid as to miss the obvious. It is that they start from a world-view so skewed that their interpretations take them down convoluted and bizarre paths.” Right on! We’ve considered it, and sometimes we don’t have the energy or patience to to follow those bizarre paths. True, we’ve got enough crazy ones of our own!

          It is mainly the family’s wish not to have TM’s image “tarnished”, and their efforts to try and keep a good memory of their son cannot be faulted. You can fault MSM for mis-representations though. Seeming to “hide” anything about TM, relevant or not, adds fuel to the other side’s arguments. As in, look, they only gave us 12 year old pictures, but he’s actually 17 years old! OK, here’s a picture of the 17 year old, is he still big and scary? NLME is certainly not shy about hiding things, otherwise he wouldn’t have posted the 7-11 video.

          Admittedly, we love GZ bashing here. I’m guilty of it. In the end, though, who has the burden to prove himself? TM or GZ? GZ is the one who took a life and has the burden to prove (to the court, and yeah his God) that he had no alternative but to do so. If his defense team (lawyers or treepers) decides to insinuate a cigar/blunt and potential lean drink (that has yet to be proven existed) constitute a motive behind the murderous rage that forced GZ to shoot, then good luck to them. But you’re right, prosecution has to prepare themselves for a jury to be swayed by such non-sensical arguments because the defense is just hoping to seed enough “doubt”, whether reasonable or not, into their minds so they can’t pass a guilty verdict.

          BTW, glad to have your expertise here on the audio stuff. Those effing goon moments are maddening!

    • Thank you! I’ve made the edits to Dan’s name and noted that one expert has — as of right now — only concluded that the voice wasn’t Zimmerman’s. Note: The other expert said it was Trayvon yelling for help.

      I won’t call anybody in the Zimmerman family credible until it’s proven they are. I definitely won’t cite Zimmerman supporters’ hateful reasoning behind Trayvon (possibly) obtaining/smoking a cigar.

  11. I talked to Frances Robles for like over 2 hours. She seemed nice, reasonable, and disposed to the healthy skepticism toward actors in this case that old-school journalists are supposed to affect. She did quote me out of context though, and I wonder if readers knew what the heck i was talking about.

    ““You have a CSI phenomenon, where people think you can take a blurry video, focus it and find the truth,” said a blogger who goes by “whonoze.”
    …On the other hand there are indisputable facts: the non-emergency call, Google maps and a clock. Stick those things together. People were not doing that, and were coming up with scenarios that were physically impossible.”

    The first sentence is a reference to false belief that low-quality recording can be ‘enhanced’ to reveal previously hidden ‘truths,’ as evidenced mainly by the many interpretations of the surveillance vid of GZ arriving at SPD (all of said interpretations, proGZ or antiGZ, basically being full of crap.)

    The second sentence refers not so much to the temporal impossibilities of squaring GZ’s statements and re-enactment with the NEN call, but to the early media coverage of the “no arrest scandal” that either implied GZ directly chased TM down, instigated a confrontation and shot him or explicitly presented that sort of scenario: for example a ‘walk-through’ created by Joy Anne Reid on theGrio.com, and used on a couple MSNBC shows.

    The ‘people’ I was referring to were the mainstream press. I was expressing my disappointment that the press did not interrogate the physical evidence in a way that would led to more accurate reporting. Frances’ reply to this was basically, “that’s not my job.” And I know that to be true. So it’s more a critique of institutional values and standard practices, not a charge of negligence aimed at any specific reporter or media outlet.

    • Thanks for the clarification, and also thanks for having the patience to speak to a MSM reporter, knowing ahead of time what was likely to happen – being quoted out of context in a story that stays ” fair and balanced” ie, refuses to draw conclusions even in the face of proof of his lying to investigators.

      Your point about comparing the NEN call to google maps and a clock may have been quoted out of context, but the larger implications are still there: some things are possible; GZ’s contradictory accounts are not possible.

      The difference between bloggers and the MSM is obvious; but both worlds have strengths and weaknesses. Those who seek the truth would do well to avail themselves of both, keep an open mind, and draw their own conclusions.

  12. The Lonesome Death of Trayvon Martin…almost too painful to listen to but do and notice additional police footage…has this “relaxing ” pose of GZ been shown before?
    The song is heartbreaking and her voice is wrenching.

    • Please look at 3:19 on this video at GZ casually leaning against wall immediately upon entrance into police garage. Can’t screenshot for you’ll but someone please look at this picture showing GZ way too relaxed for someone whose just been arrested .

      • I took a look since you asked so nicely and said please.🙂

        He’s relaxed because he thinks everyone will see this as self defense/SYG; he expects to go in there and get a pat on the back and high five then sent on his way. Who would care about another young, black, “thug?”

        • @ question everything trust no one
          “he’s relaxed because he expected to be high fived and released.”

          Gz is quite chilled fully expecting that he would be believed, to the point of being so relaxed he leans against the wall as soon as he exits police car?
          What would be the precipitating factor…the cops had some brief contact w/ him through NEN but only through a phone call or two. Yes, he said he was NW but they have experienced those folks in dicey behaviors so that in and of itself wouldn’t cause them to think “he’s one of us”
          Mark Osterman was there. We know MO was a fed. officer. IMHO, MO flashed his Fed. ID to the cops, said GZ was his BFF and a good guy, told GZ everything will be all right, my man. I’m going to make sure you’re believed. Just tell the truth ( which is what he said he told GZ @ FBI interview).

          So he actually is treated like a fellow good guy and released. MO’s proud as punch & his enormous ego prevents him from giving the only sane advice possible when they left police station ,i.e., You need to Get AN ATTORNEY. Instead he gives him some of the lamest advice possible..”told him to just tell the truth”

          There is something odd going on there. GZ may naively think he can answer a few questions and everything will be hunky dory but MO was a cop and knows that never happens w/o legal council .

          So my questions:
          Why were bank vds subpoenaed ?
          Why didn’t MO advise GZ to get an attorney before answering questions.

          Thank you question everything trust no one!

          • @2dogsonly, I’m a hold-out on believing that it’s MO at the bank. If that’s NOT him, then the video was was only meant to show the weather conditions and change in lighting at dusk. GZ was awfully calm and not a basketcase after the shooting (from witness account), but I’m not sure how you would expect him to look in the survellience video. He has been arrested before, so having handcuffs on isn’t unfamiliar to him, but his leaning against the wall could also be attributed to his supposedly aching back (he did complain about that to the doctor the next day), which could be a chronic problem. (FYI, I’m playing a bit of a devil’s advocate here.)

          • @2dogsonly & @Was So Interesting

            “…but his leaning against the wall could also be attributed to his supposedly aching back (he did complain about that to the doctor the next day), which could be a chronic problem. (FYI, I’m playing a bit of a devil’s advocate here.)”

            I thought this, as well. I think it’s a little bit of column and and a little of column b. I believe he did have chronic back problems, in the 2nd evidence dump one of his (former?) coworkers mentioned GZ’s special chair for his back (I wish I had a page #, I REALLY suck at citing things I don’t have easily on hand, don’t hate me – haha).

            I think there’s a number of reasons GZ was so relaxed and thought he could talk without a lawyer:

            1. He truly believed TM was a criminal, and he was convinced that it was self defense.

            2. He likely knows that many of his neighbors aren’t the type to look out or rush out if danger is present, so he may feel overly confident that no one heard or saw enough to point the finger at him.

            3. He also knows his town has a history of racism. He also complained that the cops were lazy.

            4. His buddy MO at the scene gave him a sense of confidence. Intentionally or unintentionally witnesses and evidence were likely tampered with/influenced/whatever by officers, GZ, MO/SZ.

            5. TM was unidentified. None of the residents said they recognized him. The neighborhood had a bit of crime. GZ is the NW/resident. At first, they thought he was just walking about and got attacked. It is very likely they believed this was self defense while still on the scene. If he saw the police believed him right off the get go, he probably felt confident they would just continue to believe everything he says.

            6. GZ’s been arrested before and is used to getting off.

            7. The ONLY reason I can see him talking and not lawyering up is because he’s got friends in high places. Daddy or MO doesn’t think he needs to lawyer up. WHY?

            8. Totally my own opinion, he’s a cocky motherf***er.

            GZ’s vitals were completely normal after the shooting while still on scene. In his mind, this was self defense. He caught the bad guy. The bad guy’s dead. Everyone will see it his way (for reasons stated above). Why pay money for a lawyer when you’ve got ex-magistrate daddy, buddy MO, etc.? I think they all just thought it would go away. Too bad our noses got up in their business.

            As to what’s on the video – I’m unsure if that’s MO. I have my doubts. I believe they wanted footage from any security cameras in the area. I do believe MO was with GZ and SZ that night. He tries way to hard in his interview to come up with a reason his buddy was there so quickly and why SZ moved the vehicle. No reason to do this unless there’s something to hide. There’s more, but I don’t what it is, YET…

      • Folks, he just leaned against a wall for a few seconds, which has no necessary meaning whatsoever. The Tree Nuts were saying he ‘staggered’ back into the wall, proving he was shaken by the beating he’d taken. No, he looks for the wall, then steps back to it. You do that when you’re uncomfortable standing. So maybe it was his back. Maybe it was his feet. Maybe he was just tired from running after TM. Maybe he was relaxed. Or maybe he was hiding his nervousness and his weak knees were about to give the game away. Or maybe the guy just likes walls. This is trivial. I shall risk arrogance by suggesting there might be more productive uses of your time. Like helping Screamin’ Jay with those transcripts…

        • Actually, there are even more productive uses of my time than theorizing/philosophizing/hallucinating about minutia of the GZ/TM case:

          1) Scrub my bathtub.
          2) Do stuff for my real job.
          3) Organize my sock drawer.
          4) Find the missing socks.
          5) Tackle the spiderwebs in the basement
          6) Re-paint the beige living room…beige.
          7) Did I say scrub my bathtub?
          8) Pull weeds in the yard.
          9) Wash the car.
          10) Teach my son to fly a kite.
          .
          By now, I think whonoze might want me to go fly that figurative kite, anybody wanna come?

          • I would come, but I might decide to take up other trivial things. I know! – Maybe I will take up watching Real Housewives of New Jersey; I might be better suited for that.

      • hi 2dogs, yes i noticed this when the footage was released and made note of it (probably here on bcclist). I don’t care what anyone else says, he was looking pretty fucking nonchalant to me. Of course there were many things that indicated he didn’t give a fuck he just killed somebody, but more importantly he certainly did not look shaken like someone who thought they were going to die from a crazy person beating the shit out of them and verbally telling them they were going to die.

        NLME posted video footage of a man who was followed by a woman and yelled at in a car park. There was nothing physical, just a woman with kids who followed this grown man in his car, and yelled at him when he stopped. His eyes were bugging out of his head, he was anxious, agitated, gesturing wildly when pleading his case, and all because some chick yelled at him for no reason. I imagine that even 40 minutes later he still would have been shaking his head and showing tension about what just transpired.

        GZ looks like he just got arrested for jay-walking. His finding a comfy spot to prop himself against shows to me that there was no tension, no fear, no remorse or shock at taking a life and certainly no despair at the trauma he has supposedly just suffered. The way he chatted to Singleton about her being authorative and not having had to shoot someone, chatting about his wife and buddy, passing stress tests. Not at all like someone who was nearly beaten to death and had to take a life.

        I agree, he looked way to fucking comfortable, and when he leaned back into that wall it told me that this man doesn’t give a shit about what just happened, so it certainly wasn’t the battle for life and death that he has described.

        If my feet were sore after i had just been smashed to pieces and faced imminent death i think that would be the last of my worries, and he certainly looked spritely enough when they summoned him to come with them..bounced off that wall like a man without a worry in the world, or any pain in his feet or back.

      • … or too relaxed for someone who has just been punched, had his head slammed umpteen times on the concrete, and then almost suffocated to death’s door!

  13. Paging WillisNewton…

    Do you have a graphic depiction of Zimmerman’s markup of the map of RTL? Want to see where the ‘x’ was marked. Can’t find. Pretty sure it’s been mentioned before, but can’t find.

    I relistened to interview #1 by SPD’s Singleton to get some of my questions answered.

    How do these things square with your pic analysis?

    Recording #1 – 2/26/12 – Det. Singleton interviewing George Zimmerman

    – 10:05 — Zimmerman said burglars committing crimes know the neighborhood very well and they “cut in between buildings”.

    – 12:00 — zimmerman said he rolled his window up as soon as he saw Martin approaching and he couldn’t hear anything Trayvon Martin may have said and “stayed on the phone with dispatch”.

    – 12:10 – zimmerman said his car was running and his lights were on.

    – 13:25 – zimmerman said he told the police where his car was and gave dispatch “the make and the model” (odd unprompted choice of words for this particular conversation).

    – 13:50+ – zimmerman said he got punched in the nose, fell down, fell backward INTO THE GRASS (@14:18).

    – 14:18 – zimmerman said he fell down/backward INTO THE GRASS.

    – 14:50 – zimmerman admits he sees people looking.

    – 15:20 – zimmerman mentions sign in description of head-banging (utility cover?).

    – 15:35 – zimmerman said as Martin banged his head again, he just pulled out his firearm and shot him.

    – 15:45 – zimmerman says Trayvon Martin fell off after zimmerman shot him. Singleton probed zimmerman’s other senses since zimmerman claimed his sight and smelling ability were impaired. Answered Singleton’s follow up question with an “I don’t remember” “my vision was blurry”. “can’t breathe”. zimmerman says on second follow up question by Singleton that Martin might have been pushed back after the shot.

    – 16:25 – zimmerman says he holstered his fire arm after he shot Martin then jumped on top of Martin and held his hands out and told Martin to “stay down”; Martin “was still talking”. “Stay down. Don’t move.”

    – 16:40 – zimmerman confirmed that witness (W13) asked if zimmerman needed him to call 9-1-1 and zimmerman told the witness that the police should already be on the way. zimmerman discouraged W13 from call 9-1-1.

    – 17:10 – zimmerman told officer he shot “this guy” in response to the officer’s question and then “I immediately put my hands on top of my head” and “I told the police officer where my firearm was.”

    – 17:28 – zimmerman was asked by Singleton if Martin said anything else after zimmerman got on top of him after the shot was fired. zimmerman replied that Martin said “ow ow”.

    – 20:13 – zimmerman makes a distinction (corrects Singleton) between the phrases “betweeen two houses” and “behind the houses”. (listen again at 10:15 of same recording where describing Martin as suspicious is “between” — refers to unpaved cut-throughs?)

    – 20:25 – zimmerman offers to draw a map of the neighborhood/crime scene.

    – 21:19 – zimmerman said Trayvon Martin’s motive is that he was upset that zimmerman had called the police. HOW WOULD TRAYVON MARTIN KNOW ZIMMERMAN HAD CALLED THE POLICE??? Windows up!!

    – 21:55 – zimmerman claims he had his cell phone in his hand when he is at the tee, but unsure if he actually retrieved the phone from his pocket when he was attempting to call 9-1-1 after he’d gotten punched in the nose (according to him). This is contrary to his previous claims to have put the cell phone in the wrong pocket near his gun.

    – 24:33 – zimmerman again said he put his hands on his head. This time, he mentions that he turned his back to the officer, tells the officer he shot the victim and that he has his gun on his right side in his holster in his wasteband and the officer responds “I know you do, but I have to handcuff you first.” “He put[pulled] my arms out and then handcuffed me.”

    25:27 – Singleton said “You say you’re in charge of the Neighborhood Watch?” zimmerman replied “Yes, ma’am”.

  14. Hey guys, only my 3rd post here, but still following since the beginning. Congrats to NLME, Tchoupi, Whonoze, and everyone else that have dedicated so much time and effort analyzing data regarding this case. It’s so cool to see it recognized in the rest of the media. It’s been an amazing case so far. I’m hoping there is enough indisputable evidence in the end to convict GZ. Back to lurking.

  15. My comments on the map are here:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630287389764/with/7571385584/

    Where I think GZ made the X is here:
    GZ's circle and HIGHLIGHTER

    where I see various marks on his map is here:
    deciphering GZis map?

    It’s going to be long and somewhat boring for me to address some of the minor things you’ve listed here, but I’ll try to give my thoughts in another post.

    I do think the FIRST interview with Singleton is important, and it shows the early cracks in his tale – he’s hoped he can omit the entire clubhouse to cut thru part of the story, and he does – but Singleton sees he’s leaving something out and goes and get a map. The FIRST time GZ says he was directed to move to keep an eye on the teen, he means when he got out of his car and followed on foot. But when SIngleton brings the map, he is confronted with the idea it doesn’t make sense for him to have driven so far past the clubhouse after just spotting TM near 1400 RVC. So IMO he invents the parking at the clubhouse parking lot then and there, and it all begins to slide downhill from there. Singleton has to tell him that TM would have to have passed him there at the clubhouse, and so GZ suddenly amends his tale to being directed to move to keep an eye on the youth to HERE as well, making the twisted interpretation of “he’s running, which way is he running?” have to be the SECOND time he’s “directed to move” and gumming up his whole false narrative. Now he has to insist that he was asked/told TWICE to move, and he’s screwed up the simple twist of the tale from TM passed me heading east to TM doubled back and circled me, a tale that sort of fits the NEN call so long as GZ was never on the line while he was up by the clubhouse. Too bad he insists he was, when played the recording.

    (Imagine a 911 operator telling a caller, “We need you to go downstairs and see what that burglar is doing in your kitchen.” It’s a ludicrous idea. )

    The movement from the clubhouse to the cut thru is EXTREMELY problematical for the defense since IMO GZ is caught lying to investigators and the only witness they can impeach to refute the lies is the defendant himself, one George Zimmerman. And the lies continue all the way up until he tells the dispatcher “he ran,” and possibly “have them call me (instead of meeting my by the mailboxes”. If I were the prosecution I’d make this the number one point to hammer in to a jury’s heads – that GZ lied to investigators as to where he was, why he moved and what it meant that he told these lies in a pattern of omissions regarding following the teen.

    Circumstantial evidence suggests he continued to seek the teen until he found him, and of course there is that all important admission of “Are you following him?” “Yeah. ”

    To me all the rest is just a cakewalk – the prosecution need only offer circumstantial evidence that backs a narrative that GZ did something other than what he’s claimed, and a jury will go along with quite a bit of what they suggest on faith since whatever the defense says will seem like more lies, even when they are telling the truth about little things here and there.

    • Willis: “The FIRST time GZ says he was directed to move to keep an eye on the teen, he means when he got out of his car and followed on foot. But when SIngleton brings the map, he is confronted with the idea it doesn’t make sense for him to have driven so far past the clubhouse after just spotting TM near 1400 RVC. So IMO he invents the parking at the clubhouse parking lot then and there, and it all begins to slide downhill from there.”

      I agree 200%. To sum it up, he started with a narrative, then he had to fix it to match the floorplan when shown one, then he failed to match his NE call when confronted with it.

      • Thanks, tchoupi. Of course when I posted that same scenario on TalkLeft it was deleted by the host. So good luck over there. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

        It’s almost impossible to get a straight answer to a straight question over there from the majority of regulars at TalkLeft forums. They suffer from groupthink IMO and cling to the idea that since GZ wasn’t a Klan member he’s been railroaded somehow, as if one “media circus” is somehow responsible for everything bad that happened to GZ, such as being investigated and put on trial with a decent lawyer and judge with a great reputation. Oh, the injustice of being called out on his shenanigans with the hidden money and hidden passport. Give me a break. But for the GPS, George left jail with the means, motive and opportunity to flee the USA and his date with justice, and he may have had a great head start, too, all the while collecting money from “supporters” who run the gamut from slightly ignorant gun owners to the scum of the earth hate groups.

        The parents of the dead teenager hired an advocate in order to gain attention to the case and fight for justice because they felt their son was incapable of an attack on a stranger, and that the police and local prosecutor were not working the case right, or hard enough. I think they have been vindicated based on what we’ve learned about Norm Wolfinger, but of course we don’t really know what he felt or did – he’s not spoken to the press much at all, and there hasn’t been any credible investigation into SPD or Wolfinger’s actions. The SOA needs the cooperation of the SPD in order to get the conviction and can’t risk upsetting the power structure there by poking into the case too much.

        But all you have to do is look at a map, (preferably the one GZ himself drew on) and listen to the NEN call and the interviews in chronological order with an open mind and it’s all plain as day – this guy is a liar, and he’s got a clear pattern to his made up narrative that is easily proven to be lies all the way up to his insisting he was at RVC when he told Sean the NEN dispatcher “he ran.” IMO this false narrative deliberately excludes a car to pedestrian chase down TTL that is the cause of TM’s running away, an activity GZ NEVER mentions unless first prompted to speak about it.

        But for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known TM ran away. GZ left it out of his written statement and his first several tellings. It seems ludicrous to me to think TM ran away skipping for no discernible reason, only to “double back” and attack GZ, just as it’s obvious TM never teleported to the cut thru in order to give GZ time to drive from clubhouse parking lot to the cut thru parking spot he claims without ever being in motion and in sight of the teenager walking east on TTL. His story just doesn’t hold water, and if you look at it carefully you can see the patterns he employs when he lies – when it doubt, George leaves it out. (example: What did GZ do with his hands the whole time they struggled? He leaves this out, mostly.)

        Getting back to how GZ fashioned his false narrative, I hope someday we learn who coached him and what they told him specifically, but to put on my speculation hat I’d say it was Osterman who advised him on the scene, as he waited in the back of a squad car, to insist he never “followed” the teen and was “jumped” instead and also never tried to detain the youth. Osterman need not have had more than 3-5 minute to put his two cents in for George and set the false narrative in motion. But that’s purely speculation. Maybe George knew enough about self-defense to make all this cr*pola up on his own. But we do know that Osterman tacitly admitted he spoke to both GZ and the cops that night, seemingly before GZ was interviewed by Singleton. To me there is a mountain of “smoke” there and where there is smoke there is usually fire.

        If you are determined to give TalkLeft a go, be sure to prepare yourself for an exercise in futility for the most part, and read and understand the ever-flexible and changing “rules” for posting, and always keep a copy of what you write since it’s subject to deletion.

  16. “common sense for change” –

    Here is my specific replies to your notes. I wish I had taken more time to review the recording but honestly I didn’t. I hope however that I have answered your questions. GZ has a lot of problems with his inconsistent stories. He’s got bigger problems with the proven lies he told investigators.

    How do these things square with your pic analysis?
    Recording #1 – 2/26/12 – Det. Singleton interviewing George Zimmerman
    – 10:05 — Zimmerman said burglars committing crimes know the neighborhood very well and they “cut in between buildings”.
    I tend to think GZ never saw T M by Taaffe’s house, as Tchoupi’s analysis of the clubhouse videos suggest, but also because GZ continually conflates the earlier actions of a “goon” around Taaffe’s house with what are supposed to be his own recollections of the night – and his inconsistent placement of the teen, as seen on the map and in Singleton’s opinion of where he marked it, as seen in the video walk thru “re-enactment.” Her idea of where GZ told her he first saw the teen seems to differ from what GZ tells police during the video.
    – 12:00 — zimmerman said he rolled his window up as soon as he saw Martin approaching and he couldn’t hear anything Trayvon Martin may have said and “stayed on the phone with dispatch”.
    I have no opinion about this. I also don’t see the relevance other than of course this was the first chance GZ ignored to identify himself. I suppose it speaks to intent.
    – 12:10 – zimmerman said his car was running and his lights were on.
    I don’t doubt that his car was running, and that his lights were on when he faced the cut thru, but I suspect his lights were off when he faced the mailboxes. He may have crept up to the mailboxes with them off from the cut thru corner where he seems to be seen making a u turn. IMO the timing of the NEN call recording shows that he had to be somewhere IN BETWEEN his town contradictory supposed positions of clubhouse parking lot and cut thru.
    – 13:25 – zimmerman said he told the police where his car was and gave dispatch “the make and the model” (odd unprompted choice of words for this particular conversation).
    He gives directions that seem to be to TTL past the clubhouse. I have not heard the “make and model” part that some claim is stepped on by dispatch.
    – 13:50+ – zimmerman said he got punched in the nose, fell down, fell backward INTO THE GRASS (@14:18).
    He says this many times. I think he recalls a blow to the nose and falling into the grass – just not where he claims it happened. It seems plain to me that IF this happened, it was in John’s backyard and possibly AFTER the standing struggle / argument that residents seem to have heard. GZ tells this “he punched, you fell” (as Serino puts it to him) story before being taken to the scene and understanding he needed to add the “stumble” to the tale. I once made a chart of all the ways GZ describes the start of the altercation, but I can’t find it just now. He’s pretty consistent on the blow that knocked him to the ground, except when he is there on the scene, when he tells it differently and adds the stumble but only moves around 26-28 feet to illustrate instead of the full ~45 feet.

    – 14:18 – zimmerman said he fell down/backward INTO THE GRASS.
    see above

    – 14:50 – zimmerman admits he sees people looking.
    We know at least JohnW6 looked and said something to him.
    – 15:20 – zimmerman mentions sign in description of head-banging (utility cover?).
    I have no idea what he meant by this. If the altercation did start near the keychain flashlight the two may have banged into the dog waste station, but I think that would have been in a standing position as GZ tried to detain the teen. It’s unimportant to the prosecution to sort this out.
    – 15:35 – zimmerman said as Martin banged his head again, he just pulled out his firearm and shot him.
    GZ has some slight injuries to the back of his head. But of course this description differs from others, where the banging was first, then the smothering, and then the verbal death threat etc. It all adds up to an inconsistent tale that the prosecution can argue is evidence of his pushing a false narrative, and part of a pattern they can establish more fully in other areas.
    – 15:45 – zimmerman says Trayvon Martin fell off after zimmerman shot him. Singleton probed zimmerman’s other senses since zimmerman claimed his sight and smelling ability were impaired. Answered Singleton’s follow up question with an “I don’t remember” “my vision was blurry”. “can’t breathe”. zimmerman says on second follow up question by Singleton that Martin might have been pushed back after the shot.
    no opinion on this.
    – 16:25 – zimmerman says he holstered his fire arm after he shot Martin then jumped on top of Martin and held his hands out and told Martin to “stay down”; Martin “was still talking”. “Stay down. Don’t move.”
    Others seem to speak about an interlude and an admission that the gun was placed on the ground. GZ has a pattern to his troublesome actions: “when in doubt, leave it out.” I tend to doubt it will come up at trial. But if it does, it’s yet another “inconsistency.”
    – 16:40 – zimmerman confirmed that witness (W13) asked if zimmerman needed him to call 9-1-1 and zimmerman told the witness that the police should already be on the way. zimmerman discouraged W13 from call 9-1-1.
    An ambulance should have been sent for at that time and was not. The prosecution can argue this speaks to intent, but I’m not sure how much “traction” they can get. What’s speaking to intent to me is the lack of actions by GZ to try to revive the teen personally and his supposed lack of understanding about Travon’s medical condition overall.
    – 17:10 – zimmerman told officer he shot “this guy” in response to the officer’s question and then “I immediately put my hands on top of my head” and “I told the police officer where my firearm was.”
    Probably true. Hard to say. I don’t trust either Smith or GZ at this point, and understand why TM’s family, esp Tracy Martin felt there was more to the case than the SPD was telling him. W13 should be questioned about these events, but that probably didn’t happen because the SAO needs all the cooperation it can get for the SPD and can’t “look a gift hours in the mouth.” It’s sad and verging on criminal that there has been no credible outside investigation into SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s actions surrounding the case. This to me is an even bigger outrage than the alleged murder itself.
    – 17:28 – zimmerman was asked by Singleton if Martin said anything else after zimmerman got on top of him after the shot was fired. zimmerman replied that Martin said “ow ow”.
    again, this first interview is quite important to consider, as it happened quickly after the events. Looking at the interviews one always has to consider the chronology. At the least, this is another “inconsistency.” It might just be the truth as well. It seems unlikely that the fatally wounded teen would be able to say much with no air in his lungs and his heart shattered. I’m sure the prosecution can call an expert witness to speak to this issue. IANAD, however.
    – 20:13 – zimmerman makes a distinction (corrects Singleton) between the phrases “betweeen two houses” and “behind the houses”. (listen again at 10:15 of same recording where describing Martin as suspicious is “between” — refers to unpaved cut-throughs?)
    nice catch.
    – 20:25 – zimmerman offers to draw a map of the neighborhood/crime scene.
    VITAL, but we need to see a decent copy of the google map he drew on later. See my flickr set for reams of speculation about this. This first map is just some squiggles most likely. It’s NOT the hand drawn map on pg 18 of the 284 pg 2nd pdf. That mao seems to be from a witness, likely the “distraught teacher” who lives at the top of the T.
    – 21:19 – zimmerman said Trayvon Martin’s motive is that he was upset that zimmerman had called the police. HOW WOULD TRAYVON MARTIN KNOW ZIMMERMAN HAD CALLED THE POLICE??? Windows up!!
    If a teenager sees a lurker calling on a cell phone while he loiters, and that teenager is black, he could reasonably be expected to draw a conclusion that it was a resident calling the cops. Of course, the “Why are you following me” question Dee Dee recalls speaks to this issue. It’s an odd assertion but I don’t think the prosecution is going to get much traction here in refuting the assertion itself, but the alternative scenario is that GZ is grasping at straws, and trying to omit and obscure his pursuit.
    – 21:55 – zimmerman claims he had his cell phone in his hand when he is at the tee, but unsure if he actually retrieved the phone from his pocket when he was attempting to call 9-1-1 after he’d gotten punched in the nose (according to him). This is contrary to his previous claims to have put the cell phone in the wrong pocket near his gun.
    GZ was at the Tee heading east while on the phone, even if a jury is to believe the impossible assertion that he had continued all the way to RVC when he is recorded saying “he ran'” without running to get there. more inconsistencies about the location of the phone exist, but the assertion of being at RVC when he said “he ran” is a provable lie. He lied to investigators and that’s a fact in this regard. Sure he could have been “mistaken,” but it’s a significant mistake moments before a fatal shooting. That’s never good for the defense to have to admit.

    – 24:33 – zimmerman again said he put his hands on his head. This time, he mentions that he turned his back to the officer, tells the officer he shot the victim and that he has his gun on his right side in his holster in his wasteband and the officer responds “I know you do, but I have to handcuff you first.” “He put[pulled] my arms out and then handcuffed me.”
    See above. Tim Smith is a person of interest in my book. But absent a credible outside investigation, we are unlikely to get to the bottom of what Smith did or didn’t do to falsely represent the events of the evening, if anything. I find it significant that he claims GZ told the EMTs about calling for help but the EMTs don’t seem to recall this. Osterman figures in here somewhere, possibly but again we don’t know yet.
    25:27 – Singleton said “You say you’re in charge of the Neighborhood Watch?” zimmerman replied “Yes, ma’am”.
    speaks for itself. Has little or no bearing on the case, IMO however. His actions of the evening are what matters, and being on NW doesn’t speak to intent to me. He admits he was not “on patrol,” that night but claims he was going to a big box store for groceries.

    -30-

    • @willisnewton –

      “- 10:05 — Zimmerman said burglars committing crimes know the neighborhood very well and they “cut in between buildings”.
      I tend to think GZ never saw T M by Taaffe’s house, as Tchoupi’s analysis of the clubhouse videos suggest, but also because GZ continually conflates the earlier actions of a “goon” around Taaffe’s house with what are supposed to be his own recollections of the night – and his inconsistent placement of the teen, as seen on the map and in Singleton’s opinion of where he marked it, as seen in the video walk thru “re-enactment.” Her idea of where GZ told her he first saw the teen seems to differ from what GZ tells police during the video.”

      I do understand the conflation is suspicious. But I’m leaning towards Zimmerman observed first and then called dispatch. I actually think tchoupi’s analysis confirms this. The light show tchoupi made would not be evident from Taaffe’s house (I don’t think), but the light show would show what occurred after rounding the bend towards the clubhouse.

      If anything, the piece of the light show that could confirm a drive-by/stop/slow down near Taaffe’s house would be shown on the *opposite view of the pool — not the lights from the TTL side. Maybe I need to study the light show some more.

    • @willisnewton –

      “- 12:00 — zimmerman said he rolled his window up as soon as he saw Martin approaching and he couldn’t hear anything Trayvon Martin may have said and “stayed on the phone with dispatch”.
      I have no opinion about this. I also don’t see the relevance other than of course this was the first chance GZ ignored to identify himself. I suppose it speaks to intent.”

      Exactly it goes to intent. Zimmerman was trying to paint Trayvon Martin as a criminal by suggesting Martin was angered by Zimmerman’s calling the police on him. HOW DOES TRAYVON MARTIN KNOW THIS IF THE WINDOWS WERE ROLLED UP? If Zimmerman couldn’t hear what Trayvon Martin was saying with the windows up, chances are real slim that Trayvon Martin could hear what Zimmerman was saying to dispatch.

      Wrongly profiled by Zimmerman?

    • @willisnewton –

      – 20:25 – zimmerman offers to draw a map of the neighborhood/crime scene.

      “VITAL, but we need to see a decent copy of the google map he drew on later. See my flickr set for reams of speculation about this. This first map is just some squiggles most likely. It’s NOT the hand drawn map on pg 18 of the 284 pg 2nd pdf. That mao seems to be from a witness, likely the “distraught teacher” who lives at the top of the T.”

      Totally agree here. Can’t wait for the trial so we can see evidence versus faxed and obscured pieces. Please repost your link when you get a chance. I thought I had bookmarked it, but I have so many bookmarks now that even my bookmarks are difficult to wade through.

      Thanks again!

      • Sorry I’ve only had quick looks at the awful grainy google map GZ drew on, but in the interrogation (2nd short one with Singleton on Axiom Amnesia site), he was asked to put X’s and the words “car” and 911 (maybe he corrected her and said non-emergency, so maybe he wrote NEN.) are these words on any of the maps you guys have?

  17. After finally reading Frances’ article I want congratulate the whole team here.

    I also wanted to run an experiment. That is, I made my first post on TalkLeft. I want to see how much apart we are and get challenged a little bit.

    To do so, I picked a threat created by Unitron (I guess our Unitron) and dedicated to GZ as a witness. In there, I found an interesting post and replied to it. I copied it below for you to see. If I have time, I’ll post here some replies to show how people think in the Invader Zim Fan club.

    [quote author=txantimedia link=topic=2037.msg100281#msg100281 date=1344348259]
    Try to keep up. Z was going to the store. As he rounded the turn on RVC to turn left at the gate, he spotted Trayvon. He drove past him. Then Trayvon walked past his car, looking at him as he went by, and disappeared between two houses. Then Z moved his car over onto TTL and parked. Suddenly TM re-emerged out of the shadows and circled his car. Then he ran down the sidewalk and turned right on the T. At that point Z lost him again. As he exited his vehicle and headed toward the T, he looked to his right to see where TM had gone, but he couldn’t locate him.

    Then he walked to RVC, got an address, reversed course and headed toward the T, where TM jumped him.

    Clear now?
    [/quote]

    This is what I understood Z stated. What I don’t get is the timing and dispatcher requests claimed by Z.
    —–
    A)
    Z spotted and passed TM by FT’s house. He calls NEN and, as he states in the reenactment, as he connected with dispatcher, he parked to the front of the clubhouse.
    It took 42sec in the reenactment to go from FT’s to the parking spot at the clubhouse.
    At typical walking speed, and TM was walking at typical to fast speed judging from the 7-11 videos, it takes about 1m & 44sec to swallow the same distance. So, TM would catch up with Z at about 1min in the NEN call.
    This is about right as Z notices TM 42sec in his call and says “Now, he’s coming toward me” at the 1:03 mark. When pressed by Singleton on Feb. 29th, Z stressed that he was still in front of the clubhouse 1min in his call. So again, it fits well his narrative.
    The “now” suggests TM stopped walking as he was staring at Z. So, at ~1min TM still is 20sec away from Z’s Ridgeline. Meaning he would pass by Z at ~1:20 in the NEN call. This is about when Z says “Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.”. This sounds very consistent at this point.
    —-
    B)
    Z clearly says in the reenactment that TM walked by him while he was on the phone and made a right turn on TTL after what he lost sight on him.
    This is when, according to Z, Dispatcher would have asked Z to move to a place where he would see TM.
    ##
    That leads to the 1st remark: I can’t pin point in the NEN call when Dispatcher made that requested.
    ##
    In any case, TM must have turned right on TTL and disappeared at or after the 1:20 mark in the NEN call.
    —-
    C)
    Still pressed by Singleton on Feb. 29th, Z points to the background noise at 1:41 in his NEN call as the time he was parking on TTL.
    So, it took ~21sec for Z to tell Dispatcher about loosing TM, get Dispatcher’s request that I can’ find, back off the parking spot, drive to the cut through on TTL and park. In the reenactment, just the driving part took 38sec.
    ##
    2nd remark: Time looks short for Z to go from the clubhouse to the cut through on TTL
    ##

    D)
    In the reenactment Z states that as he parked, he could see TM disappears in the darkness turning south at the T after noticing him.
    To get to the T from the clubhouse, TM had to walk a distance of roughly 400ft.
    Following Z’s statement, TM would have traveled the 400ft in roughly 21sec.
    ##
    3rd remark: According to Z, TM must have traveled on foot at ~13MPH from the clubhouse to the T.
    ##

    E)
    T reemerges from the darkness to circle Z’s Ridgeline.
    ##
    4th remark: The circling is missing in the Feb. 29th interview when Z is asked to match his story to his NEN call. At least, i can’t pinpoint it.
    ##
    In the reenactment, Z explains that a saw TM coming back from the T, walking to his truck, and circling it before running to disappear again at the T.
    In his NEN cal Z says “Shit! He’s running” at the 2:07 mark. So, the walking-to-circling must have happen between the 1:41 & 2:07 marks.
    In that period, Z talks about how to find his truck from the north gate.
    ##
    5th remark: The circling is absent of the NEN call. It sounds like a pretty significant event, though.
    ##
    Walking from the T and circling the truck covers roughly 250ft (including circling the truck). TM would have traveled ~250ft in ~26sec at a speed of ~9.6ft/sec. The average walking speed is 4.4ft/sec.
    ##
    6th remark: TM was not running yet but managed to move at ~9.6ft/sec.
    ##

    E)
    Z states that after TM disappeared, Dispatcher demanded the address he was parked at. So, he exited his truck to find that address.
    ##
    7th remark: On the NEN call, Z is already out of his truck when dispatcher asks for an address.
    ##
    Once he exited his truck, wind interference can be heard on the call. Dispatcher thinks Z is running after the suspect. Serino & Singleton think the same on Feb. 29th and press Z for an answer to whether he was running. Z claims he was not running and that the weather was windy.
    Two weather stations, one 1.5Mi east of RATL & one 0.75 SSW of RATL show the weather was not windy. It was even not breezy. It was just calm but rainy.
    The weather stations also show that whatever slow wind there was, it’s general direction was East or North-East meaning that probably Z should have have the wind blowing in his back.
    Wind is measured 50ft-70ft above ground where it is faster.
    The M&I Bank video located confirms the rain and the absence of wind (no visible rain angle).
    ##
    8th remark: There was a very local wind at the cut through on TTL
    ##
    Z states he exited his truck to walk to RVC where he could give an address to Dispatcher.
    However, he never give that address. I don’t get the reasoning behind looking for an address away from where he is parked. It would have been easier for him to drive to a place he knows like any of the tow gates.
    ##
    9th remark: I can’t find when in the NEN call he tells Dispatcher
    10th remark: I don’t have the reasoning for going on foot looking for an address on RVC while parked on TTL.
    ##

    F)
    Z claims he is at the RVC end of the dog walk when he ends his NEN call by agreeing to meet at his truck.
    However, at the 3:49 mark of his call, he suddenly interrupts Dispatcher who was confirming the meeting at the mailboxes and asks to be called instead.
    ##
    11th remark: Z sounds like he changed his mind about meeting at the mailboxes.
    ##

    G)
    Z claims he walked back to his truck right after ending his NEN call and was attacked by TM 100ft from RVC.
    The NEN call ends at 7:13:39 and the first 911 call by W11 starts at 7:16:11. W11 claims she promptly called 911 after she heard the argument turning into cryings.
    Z claims there barely was no argument: 1) TM confronted him with “Do you have a problem/”. 2) Z answered with “I don’t have a problem”, 3) Z looked for his cellphone, 4) TM replied “You have a problem now”. ad punched Z in the nose.
    ##
    12th remark: There is a 2min & 32sec gap that is not accounted for.
    ##

  18. NLME said
    “I think DeeDee’s statement could also be interpreted to show Trayvon was near Brandy Green’s porch when the second chase and subsequent confrontation occurred.”

    In my opinion this is a stretch. Considering that TM had walked all the way to 7Eleven and back, he was “close to home” when he was at the clubhouse.

    But sure, many things are physically possible. Arguing an alternative to what GZ claims is going to take witnesses. To me the important part is that someone closed a gap between the two people, regardless of where they were. TM ran away as GZ followed, as he told the dispatcher. Dee Dee seems to have heard GZ close the gap on a TM who was not in pursuit or doubling back to force a confrontation.

    What’s NOT possible is that GZ’s contradictory stories are physically possible, either likely version when it comes to how he traveled from the vicinity of the clubhouse to the place he claims he parked on TTL by the cut thru. He’s lied to investigators to hide his relentless pursuit. The placement of the players is not as important as you seem to think. They were apart, they came together – the running away unarmed kid and the angry, lying, admitted killer who kept “following” as he also admitted.

    I don’t care if they waltzed across Texas before ending up in JohnW6’s backyard. It’s not that important to “know” exactly where they stood or walked, other than to say they were clearly off the path to GZ’s truck and ON the path to TM’s home when it all ended. But if one has to know where they were, all that I can say for sure is that they seemed to be in the confines of the “debris field.” What evidence, not eyewitness testimony, but physical EVIDENCE is there that they were anywhere else?

    Absent a CREDIBLE eyewitness who saw the start of the fight or the whole foot chase/ pursuit, whatever I doubt the prosecution is going to lead with “the went this way and then this way” anyhow. They are going to say “GZ is a proven liar about the move from the clubhouse, and his other statements are inconsistent with the physical evidence. We think he pursued the teen and shot him while trying to illegally detain him, as (partially) corroborated by W2, Dee Dee, and others who heard a different type of struggle and argument that GZ describes, and by the way, here’s TM’s MOM to say that’s him screaming for help, which cannot be scientifically disproven according to the FBI. That gets them at least to manslaughter. If they have more, they may get to Murder 2. I wouldn’t want to be George, left to wonder who among his friends and family may have turned state’s evidence already.

      • damfino. IANAL. The standard I think is “timely” sharing of discovery, which of course means whatever lawyers chose that to mean. The defense has yet to share the results of its investigative work with the prosecution, so I’m guessing that there is still a lot to come.

        We’ve not yet heard what Singleton told the FBI (in summary form) or the actual recordings of Serino’s interview with them either. No one seems to know who W10 is for certain. Who knows what else is out there. It’s in the interests of the prosecution to hold back anything that might indicate their strategy at trial, so It’s likely that they’ve saved the best for last in some regards.

        The deadline as I understand it, is before trial starts. O’Mara keeps trying to hold “mini trials” partially as a means to probe the prosecution’s strategy. The other reason is that he can score some early points in the court of public opinion this way, since it’s possible he may not make it to trial. The majority of all cases in the USA end with a plea bargain. I’m not sure what the state might offer for a guilty plea to M2, but it’s likely to take the form of a sentence recommendation of some sort, I’d imagine. I don;t know if they would agree to a guilty plea to manslaughter or not. the ball seems to be in GZ’s court just now, in that it would be up to the defense to ask for a plea deal.

        GZ’s ego seems strong, but that’s just the public face of it. Osterman may be under threat of a charge of tampering with evidence. Shellie, his own wife faces perjury charges. That’s his best friend/ bodyguard and his own wife, who are possibly about to turn state’s evidence on him, (if they have not already) for all he knows. Others in his inner circle may know things that are not good for his case, and may have been subject to wiretaps and electronic search warrants, who knows? GZ must know he’s lied to investigators and that his story has flaws in it. The state has been holding its cards close to the vest and claims they can prove Murder 2. Are they bluffing? It’s easy for his supporters to brag “they got nuthin'” but it’s not their arse on the line.

        GZ has one thing to offer, that’s to spare the state the expense of a full blown trial if he chooses to plead guilty – assuming the state is willing to make a deal at all. Angela Corey seems to have political aspirations, and her own big ego to deal with. This may go all the way to a lengthy televised trial. Certainly the SYG hearing is not likely to result in an acquittal, IMO. The announcement that they want one may be a bluff in and of itself. There’s always more under the surface that what is visible.

        • @willis
          Florida has strict minimum sentencing laws. Are you sure prosecutors in FL have the discretion to offer plea bargains for sentence reductions?

          Not that I think the State would offer one anyway. Everyone would hate it — we all want to hear the end of the story. Too much political fallout for just turning off the tap in some kind of compromise. And somehow I don’t see GZ seeing himself pleading to homicide as part of God’s plan. If the Lord wants a trial, who are Mark O’Mara or Angela Corey to say otherwise?

  19. Guys please listen to these excerpts from Zims former lawyers questioning him about his inconsistencies during his police interrogation and his version of events. You’re going to love their obvious skepticism and are going to realize why George apparently jumped ship and why they really withdrew from the case. Hilarious :

    • @probalance. Among his many lies, his use of the word “homie” was quickly questioned by Serino. Since then, GZ has not used that word in his recount of events, so we know it’s not true. But for the sake of discussion, I’m going to show (again) my ignorance of slang and ask, in what context would you expect that word to be used? My quick search of the word usage brought this page up: http://sentence.yourdictionary.com/homie ???? Not useful.

      But seriously, GZ was trying to make him sound as much like a thug as possible. Hence “WTF’s your problem, homie?”. Would a black teenager or even 20-something-year-old use the word homie if he’s wanting to challenge a strange hispanic/white man? Just wondering if GZ’s basketball buddies (hispanic or black) might have used that word, but in the context of it being among friends. Or is it just so outdated that no one under the age of 50 uses it, and GZ is pulling stuff out of his a$$?

      • @Was So Interesting

        I would bet that I’m probably the youngest person commenting on the case here (one of the youngest without a doubt). I’m in my mid, heading into late twenties. “Homie” was very popular and widely used predominately in the 90s. Typically, it was used between friends. I remember In Living Color and the phrase “homie don’t play that!”

        It’s not a word I hear often, and definitely not one I hear the kids and tees of today using. It’s mostly used now by white people in a joking way sort of as a throw back to when we were younger.

        Only my opinion, which may not be worth much, but GZ’s using slang from the time he grew up to put into TM’s mouth of how he thinks a black youth would talk.

    • Nice vid! I’m real interested in the clicking noise. I’m going back to my SPD version of the NEN call to see if I can hear this. If it’s there, case over and I’m re-forked! 🙂

    • @probalance says listen to excerpts from Zim’s former lawyers

      Actually, it’s splices of walk through on 2/27, 1st interview w/ Serino & Singletary on 2/28′ & Hannity’s tv interview but not his lawyers. It’s a great find, though especially the clicks.

      How Zimm didn’t become wary of Serino’s / Singletary tone, stop interview, & ask for an attorney is dumbfounding to me. Pretty sure he and wifey watch some CSI type shows.

      So back to my question, why would MO toss him into this briar patch?MO knows when they called him back in for another interview on 2/28, they weren’t closing his case. This was not going to be any slam dunk. Rather, his bff needed attorney ASAP! MO is with him 2/26 till 3AM,then on walk thru next day, this interview, and then has Zimm & wifey move into his place while all hell breaks loose. Sticks to him like glue.
      So, what is MO’s real motivation to give unwavering support and unwavering horrible advice?

  20. Just announced: THERE WILL BE A “STAND YOUR GROUND” HEARING.

    • This is going to go well for him. LOL. Mark O’Mara must really hate is client. Actually, he wants to test the waters. He knows this does not fit SYG…or self-defense.

    • Per the legal team: The SYG hearing is going to take the “same time and resources” as a trial. i.e., donations please.

      • Exactly, this is not an announcement of a filing of a motion to the court at all; it’s a plea for donations attached to nothing. Things must be going slow over at Peter Pan headquarters.

  21. Pixs of buffalo jeans…type GZ wore 2/26

    http:://www1.macys.com/search/results.ognc?sortOption=*&Keyword=buffalo%20jeans&resultsPerPage=24&Action=sd&attrs=Gender%3AGender%3AMens%7CDepartment%3ADepartment%3AJeans%7CMens+Waist+Size%3AMens+Waist+Size%3A38%7CColor%3AColor%3ABlue%7CBrand:Brand:Buffalo+David+Bitton

  22. No blunt was found on TM and the opportunity to smoke one did not present.
    As far as communications between GZ and FT and others, I’m reading on other blogs that they used walkie talkies. In fact on Frederick Leatherman’s law blog someone cited Taaffe as having said that they do, I asked for a link to where he says this, but no reply.

    • Link please? This has been a major source of frustration for NLME as long as I’ve been posting here and I admit I’m curious about this, too.

      Would love to see evidence that the Neighborhood Watch at that neighborhood (RTL) was using walkie talkies on their patrols to communicate. If there is evidence of the walkie-talkie use, did the HOA pay for the walkie-talkies? Did Zimmerman?

      • I think it’s really dangerous to pick up things from blogs, others or even this one, without thoroughly reading the history of the discussion. As a regular reader, you’d know if something was just brought up or if there was a consensus. I really like QETNO’s pseudonym, Question Everything Trust No One. The walkie talkie theory was only put up as an explanation possibly of how GZ could have communicated with a potential partner in crime. It’s fine to theorize (as in, to fill in gaps) but now people are talking about it as if it was fact????? The other thing that has bothered me was the “keys are in my truck” and “keys are in my ignition”. I don’t hear it on the call, and those two phrases do not sound at all alike. Sounds like people are trying reaaallllyyyy hard to push a square peg through a round hole. Yet I just popped over to the Leatherman blog for the first time, and it seems like everyone over there is convinced of it. I throw out theories all the time, but I hope that people understand it when it’s a theory, and when I’m trying to present something that I believe to be more factual.

      • NLME first mentioned the possibility that they may have used cb radios, quite some time ago. My guess is that others have grabbed the ball and ran with it. So that now we’re hearing echoed assertions without any substance behind them.

        As I said, the person who stated it on Leatherman’s blog was not let off unchallenged. I asked them to provide a link or a cite or anything else that might substantiate such a claim.
        I’ll post any information I get, here as soon as I do. And yes, I have also speculated that they may have used walkie talkies, but I also said that was sheer speculation on my part and that I had no evidence to support such a claim, just as NLME said of his posit.

        We posit things that appear to be indicated by the evidence, in hope that others will keep an eye out for things that might confirm it. Not to put the basis of rumor into the hands of the millers. Never-the-less it happens.

Comments are closed.