A .pdf version of the 2nd evidence dump can be accessed here…
Thank you, blog commenter “question everything trust no one.”
The calls can be accessed here…
Thank you, CommonSenseForChange.
I haven’t reviewed the 2nd evidence dump yet but per twitter, it seems like the FBI made a conclusion (or was it a summary that will be part of an eventual conclusion?) that Zimmerman wasn’t racist. From what I understand, the FBI only noted statements from current coworkers and friends. Meaning, the FBI didn’t report Zimmerman’s former middle eastern coworker who said the accused murderer harassed and bullied those he considered less than him:
The dump also mentioned that Zimmerman purchased a gun after Trayvon Martin’s shooting and before being charged with 2nd Degree Murder. Is there video of Zimmerman shooting and/or holding the new gun in his right hand? Zimmerman claims to have fired with his right hand during the reenactment but he writes left handed and was possibly in possession of a left handed holster.
It was also revealed on twitter that Zimmerman was caught using a single’s dating website when he was previously engaged. I wonder if Shellie and George have worked out any trust issues? If not, she can always talk…it’s not too late…yet. As is, Zimmerman could potentially (though not likely) walk free as Shellie serves out a perjury conviction. Think Zimmerman would weigh his options while Shellie’s behind bars?
Blog commenter “aussie” points out a doozy on page 111…
“[Unidentified Female Witness] would see Zimmerman drive around the neighborhood with his car lights off. She would also see him check the walkways with flashlights late at night.”
Neighborhood Watch patrolling — with your lights on — is one thing. Creeping the streets — with your lights OFF! — is another. As commenter “jo” mentions, it’s a shame somebody didn’t call the cops on Zimmerman for suspicious behavior while creeping.
As for Chad, he was apparently playing video games while using headphones as Trayvon may have been trying to get inside their presumably locked house. Quite a call by blog commenter CommonSenseForChange all the way back on 5/29:
Update from 7/14 – Who Is Air Marshal Mark Osterman and What’s His Relationship with George Zimmerman?
Miami Herald report regarding Mark Osterman:
Mark Osterman’s firing from the Seminole County Sherrif’s Department:
Mark Osterman’s facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/mark.osterman.1 (Yes, both Mark and his wife Sondra Osterman “like” pro George Zimmerman related pages on Facebook)
Blog commenter Leelee points out that Mark Osterman has been present a few times in the evidence so far…
1) Shellie Zimmerman called him after the shooting.
2) At the re-enactment, he can be seen near a parked truck at the 1:05 mark here:
3) At Sanford Police Department with Zimmerman on February 29th in this video:
Blog commenter aussie also notes that Mark Osterman can (possibly) be seen in the M & I bank video. He’s (possibly) the last person shown to use the ATM around 6:37 pm (did Osterman see Trayvon Martin and alert Zimmerman?) in the first axiom amnesia clip below.
http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/video/mi-banking-surveillance-video/ (May require you to download a DivX video player…booo!)
Thank you, Leelee and aussie!
Update from 7/16 – Witness 9 Accuses George Zimmerman of Molestation, Zimmerman Family of Racism:
I’ve been labeling Zimmerman as the creepy guy chasing unarmed teens through a neighborhood (before eventually shooting them) for sometime now. I’ve also mentioned above the creepiness in which Zimmerman patrolled the GATED community with his lights OFF late at night while on Neighborhood Watch. But, this obviously takes it to the next level.
Note: As of 2:00 pm EDT, this story isn’t on CNN’s homepage. Hmmmmm — why not?
Thank you, blog commenters jo So Interesting.
Update from 7/17 – Zimmerman says O’Mara knew about $37,000 in donations received:
What are the repercussions of a defense attorney lying to the court? Ouch!
Update from 7/17 – Zimmerman blew $36K in 18 days on phones, Internet, credit cards and bills:
Didn’t O’Mara state Zimmerman spent the money raised judiciously? Paying for 12+ month contracts upfront seems rather erratic. I must understand a different definition of judicious.
Also, Osterman indicated that Zimmerman lived a frugal life in his statement to the FDLE. I must understand a different definition of frugal as well.
Update from 7/24 – A Deeper Dive into Evidence Dump #2:
The above posting is the 4th of 5 postings that includes updates regarding the Trayvon Martin – George Zimmerman shooting. The others can be found here…
1 of 5…
2 of 5…
3 of 5…
5 of 5…
Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.
Just noting some points that stuck out:
Several summaries from people interviewed did not turn up any accusations of GZ being a racist. Even the ex fiance does not point to GZ as being a racist; actually, she brings up his mother as the one with some sort of bias. VZ told investigators that his family often talked about class, wealth, and material things. In addition, she states the mother spoke about marrying white and wealthy as a sign of status.
I’m unsure who the interviewee is, but they go into a story that GZ’s mother used to hit him all the time growing up, and that the father did not do much to punish, and did not do much in terms of the abuse. It is also stated GZ was estranged from his family, and that he was closest with his half-sister who was also apparently ostracized for some reason.
Serino himself did not believe GZ was a racist, but stereotyped Martin based on his apparel along with the circumstances of the evening. Serino in his interview states that GZ instigated the whole thing. Serino’s statement was cut off. I found that a bit odd.
It was noted that the gangs in the area refer to themselves as “goons.” It is stated that many of the gangs are comprised of AA, and that the attire is dark hoodies. Maybe GZ did say goon, thinking TM was gang affiliated.
Most accounts of GZ describe him in some form as weak or mild. Interesting. Serino describes him as “soft,” but with a bit of a “hero complex.”
After the incident GZ purchased another gun, and it was referred to as a “cop killer.” The weapon is meant to fire high velocity rounds quickly. GZ went to the gun shop stating he needed more guns because he feared for his safety.
The document dump also details the call GZ made to the SAO the day before the arrest. He referred to Sonner and Uhrig as “legal advisors,” but not his counsel. When prosecutors/investigators attempted to do a three-way call between with him and his advisors, GZ hung up.
We finally know what Chad Green’s had to say! TM did indeed speak to him letting him know he was on his way home. Chad stayed up to tell TM and BG. CG did not hear anything because he was at the front of the house playing his games with a headset on. The family believed he was with his cousin until they contacted the cousin in the morning. The reports note that the night that they hung out that the cousin bought a Black & Mild. His cousin and CG both state they never saw TM smoke weed.
Overall, the narratives seem to show a man obsessed with law. In addition, the narratives all mention that he told the people he fell back at the T. In some stories, he added that TM called him mother fucker rather than homie at the beginning. In addition, he adds that TM tells him he doesn’t know who he’s messing/fucking with.
I’ve still got to review the maps and crime lab reports. Waiting til Axiom Amnesia has the audio up, and if anyone finds the M&I vid, please post!
Now, I need to run an errand for Visine because my eyes are severely dry and glazed over. LOL. NOW…who wants to buy me a beer, lol? 🙂
Interesting that a Black & Mild came up seeing that Trayvon had apparently asked for a cigar at 7/11 and was denied. Any indication of where the cousin was while Trayvon was out getting some iced tea and Skittles?
Chad Green playing video games with headphones on explains why he possibly couldn’t hear Trayvon knocking on a presumably locked back door. Was Chad supposed to let Trayvon in when he knocked/called? No key was found on Trayvon.
The B&M was purchased by TM’s cousin apparently on an earlier trip to 7/11, not sure if it was the same 7/11, but I just thought it was interesting to see that come up. I think it stated he had stayed the night with his cousin the night before. Maybe they just like to smoke B&M’s. *shrug* I really don’t care if he did attempt to purchase one, or if he got someone else to for him…hell, I don’t even are if he was smoking a blunt blowing weed smoke in GZ’s face, lol. I just thought it was interesting that it was mentioned in the cousin’s narrative.
CG’s interview still does not answer if he was supposed to answer the door for TM. It just states that TM had either texted or called to let him know it was raining and he was making his way back home. No mention of whether CG was supposed to open the door for TM. He waited up for his mom and TM’s dad to tell them he hadn’t come back. They attempted to contact both TM and the cousin, but no answers. They went to bed, and BG woke up TM to tell him his son hadn’t come home. They made more calls, which finally reached the cousin, and that’s when they called in the missing person report.
Oh, also, in one of GZ’s telling of the story, he states he was mugged. I believe this was a statement from a coworker.
“I really don’t care if he did attempt to purchase one, or if he got someone else to for him…hell, I don’t even are if he was smoking a blunt blowing weed smoke in GZ’s face, lol. I just thought it was interesting that it was mentioned in the cousin’s narrative.”
I completely agree.
Also, there is a report with GZ being interviewed in the discovery dump, and he claims he saw each of the witnesses that were out of their house that night. I found that interesting because I would think one would not notice that if being beaten savagely… Curious and curiouser.
be specific, please. I think you are referring to a summary of an interview with Osterman the air marshall describing to investigators (which ones?) his recollection of GZ’s version of events as related to him, Osterman.
In court, it’s called hearsay. Fascinating, but not an interview with GZ. More hyperbole told to a friend and then repeated at a later date with inconsistencies, either real or imagined on the part of Osterman.
Interesting stuff for investigators, a lead, even perhaps. But in court it’s useless mostly.
You are correct. I apologize. I will rein in my comments in the future.
The story retold to Osterman? Or a story concocted with Osterman? He certainly knew it like the back of his hand. It was almost identical down to the incriminating detail that GZ had his elbow on the ground when he shot Trayvon.
re: the B+M – my understanding is that it was purchased the morning of 2/26 after the cousin spent the night.
Also, many had wonder who called Trayvon while he was on the phone with DeeDee. I now believe that was Chad calling to ask Trayvon where he was.
I am pretty sure that he would have had to let him in.Trayvon didn’t need a key to the home because he was not there that regular. I never gave my ex step son a key due to him living out of town and was never really out and about to where he needed a key, but had he, we would have let him use one of ours. They never found a key so I do believe he would have had to have Chad let him in. My son has those Beats by Dr. Dre and he can’t hear anything when he has them on due to them being noise cancellation headphones, plus he has the Ipod going, and the ps3, I can see Trayvon knocking and not being able to get him to the door, especially if he was upstairs.
“Was Chad supposed to let Trayvon in when he knocked/called? No key was found on Trayvon.”
I read somewhere where someone said they checked up on The Retreat via some real estate site, and the houses have keypad locks, so, if true, he’d just have to have known the code.
P.S. I don’t suppose amongst that myriad of WordPress options they offer a comment preview view mode?
Thanks for the great post NLME.
Here is photo analysis of the total crime scene map, which by the way vindicates my own estimates almost completely, IMO. (I missed the location of the first aid kit by less than ten feet)
here is another, NOT mine but that confirms what we both independently arrived at
If you are curious about all the measurements, go to google maps and use the ruler to to estimate distances.
Here is the one that matter to me – how far GZ claims he “stumbled” the ONE time he seems to recall having done so. 45.5 feet from the cut thru sidewalk to the shell casing.
Imagine a batter hit by an inside pitch stumbling from home plate to the front of the mound in major league baseball. That’s 45.5 feet.
Remember, this is the aprox distance GZ claims he stumbled the ONE time he recalls this movement, IMO.
Here are some of his other statements about how the altercation went from standing to prone.
first interview 26 FEB part one with Singleton
“I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
“as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
“and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”
(more quotes from all the interviews on the flickr page)
In the video walk thru “reenactment” GZ stops north of where the tan bag was found, for further comparison. That’s less than 60% of the way there, IMO.
Perhaps his girlie swatting acted somewhat like a propeller, pushing George further and further south kind of like a chicken trying to take flight…of course i joke….i just can’t work out how after being suprised by a punch in the face he stumbled forward and fought of his deadly attacker by smacking him with open hands…..i guess that’s why there is no defence wounds, he fights like a german slap dancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bthPSFS13hY&feature=related
Thank you, willisnewton! Excellent comment.
jo — Well, Zimmerman carried a concealed weapon. And, this is by far the easiest way to let somebody know that you’re weak.
LOL Jo don’t write jokes like that while I am drinking coffee!!! you owe me a keyboard.
Actually we all know from the pro_Z sites that Trayvon was about 8 or 9 ft tall and 300 lbs (all muscle mind, not flab) with fists of steel. A kinda Superman. So one swipe from him could easily push Z that far and one leap from TM would have him right on top of him.
You forgot to mention Trayvon’s 8 arms and hands.
No wonder his career as a bouncer didn’t last long but of course none of his jobs did.
p17: “She said he was a Hispanic man with a short sleeve shirt on”
There’s that “white shirt” again, I still think it is a light pastel, that gets is recognized as a light color shirt, in the dark.
So, GZ was in the habit of stalking????
Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf
interview with unidentified female
“…. would see Zimmerman drive around the neighbourhood with his car lights off. She would also see him check the walkways with flashlights late at night. “
Will add to this blog posting later tonight/tomorrow.
Another witness, this to the actual struggle. p31: “She saw the back side of a guy who had a white tee shirt on, that guy was on top of someone else.”
Dumb question (maybe) but what color was Trayvon’s undershirt(s)? Link as a source?
It appeared to be a light gray sweatshirt, long sleeves.
Oh, too fast, She says the subject that had the white t shirt on was laying on the ground, like he was sleeping, face down.
So white t-shirt guy is Trayvon? How is that?
“Dumb question (maybe) but what color was Trayvon’s undershirt(s)? Link as a source?”
Nah, not a dumb question. Can’t remember it all.
TM’s undershirt was described as light grey, and I believe long sleeved, too. Zimmerman’s was also a light grey, but I think it was almost a pale blue-ish grey.
I just don’t understand how the white shirt is TM since he had his dark grey hoodie on. I’d also like to hear an expert explain how GZ’s on his back and gets one small speck of lead on the back right arm of his jacket.
If the hoodie snugged Trayvon’s body loosely, the back side could have been lifted up during the scuffle thus exposing Trayvon’s undershirt. Again, if this possibility has been talked about on BccList.com in the past, I apologize.
The following explanation is probably unnecessary but it’s a real life example for me…
When I wear a hoodie without a tshirt underneath and bend over, 1/4 of my back is exposed and my wife hollers: “Plumber’s crack! Put on a tshirt!” So, when I wear a hoodie with a white tshirt underneath and bend over, my wife only sees a white tshirt and doesn’t get to criticize my ass crack. 🙂
The undershirt of Trayvon Martin’s that I just saw on Out Front with Erin Burnett (I’ve never seen her new show since leaving MSNBC and it’s definitely only decent at best) is 3/4 sleeve and light colored. It’s much lighter than Zimmerman’s shirt in my opinion. I assume if Out Front showed Trayvon’s undershirt, it must have been in this newest evidence dump. (Yes, I saw the picture released today of Trayvon’s hoodie on twitter but hadn’t seen the undershirt yet)
There’s a pic of his light grey undershirt in the document dump along with a pic of the hoodie, too. I can’t recall the page, but it’s toward the end documents.
Well, that describes the white shirt witnesses seemed to see — right?
I think we need more information from the witnesses. Did they see, front or back? Why called a t-shirt? short-sleeves? or as you described, could see it was under the dark hoodie? under a jacket? If there had been a proper investigation we might have those answers. Right now, I think both could be believed to have a white t-shirt but I think the confessed murder moreso than Trayvon.
I had a realization that when the witnesses say T-shirt, maybe they don’t necessarily mean short sleeve shirt, just crew neck shirt, rather than collared.
“Why called a t-shirt? short-sleeves? ”
I think what they were seeing was only one color of zimmerman’s patterned jacket sleeves.
Yup. I think we’ve tossed around the idea that it could have been TM’s undershirt exposed. I suppose it’d depend on how long his hoodie was, how long his undershirt was, and/or the angle of his body. GZ’s undershirt was indeed significantly darker, though, could still be mistaken as white in the dark. The witness statements get very confusing because some seem to mesh the two’s clothing together when attempting to describe one person. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t think TM being on top matters. It would only make sense for someone being chased down to attempt to hold the other down til help arrived. I think at some point GZ lifts off his back and fires while both are on their sides or with GZ on top.
“The following explanation is probably unnecessary but it’s a real life example for me…”
But much appreciated! 🙂
Speaking of my wife…this is from the original blog posting when we were trying to figure out the white tshirt comments from witnesses.
Below is a picture of the shirt mentioned above. It actually looks MUCH darker (blue) in this picture than it does in real life…
I’m not sure we can characterize that shirt as an undershirt as of yet. It looked like a sweatshirt to me. But I could be wrong, of course. It would also explain the bulk in the photos.
When I refer to it as an “undershirt,” I only mean that it was the garment under his hoodie. 🙂 I believe it was a sweatshirt, as well. IIRC, in the first document dump with the ME report, it was described as a sweatshirt by the ME.
Does this mean we are conceding that it was most likely TM on top?
I always believed he was on top, at least at some point, if not for the majority of the altercation. It’s the whole TM sought out GZ to viciously attack thing I don’t buy at all. I kind of wish TM had busted him up a little more, LOL.
Hey, do we know if the Walmart bag at the scene was just random trash or was it attributed to GZ?
I’m not conceding it TM was on top but it is possible. But I know one thing, the confessed murderer DID NOT fire his gun while on his back and TM on top. So if TM was on top, he apparently got up at some point. Based on the witness statements, I need some trace evidence to confirm the actual parameters of their wrestling. Also, two people seeing white t-shirt? I don’t recall as that detail didn’t stick…but will review unless you want to point me to where it is mentioned by two different witnesses. 🙂
The woman living next to John mentions the white shirt in her 911 call that night. John, after talking to his neighbors, in his statement with BDLR seems a bit unsure, and he starts describing it as red or light (he’s very confusing, lol), and I even believe W2 describes the body on the ground after the shot as wearing a light colored top in her audio with state investigators. Now, I can’t remember where, I think it is somewhere in this document dump that someone describes someone in a tan shirt in the back of a cop car.
I’m wondering if they were on their sides when the shot was fired.
The Walmart bag seems to be the one supplied “by an Asian man” (Jonathan) for the ambulance request for plastic to seal the chest wound.
The first aid kit would also be his; ambulances don’t use that kind of home-use kit, nor leave their equipment behind (apart from used bandages and wrappings etc).
@question everything trust no one Says:
“Does this mean we are conceding that it was most likely TM on top?”
I am not conceding yet. LOL
I think the question of who was wearing a white tee-shirt and who was on top at different times will end up being important. Not so much because it proves anything about Trayvon Martin or about George Zimmerman, but because it will go to the credibility of the witnesses accounts of what they say when they saw it.
**** warning! very long message to follow *****
There are 3 Witnesses O’Mara wants to rely on — W11/W20 (HOA and Jeremy) and W6 (John):
W11’s and W20’s recorded call is solid for the prosecution because their call was captured via 9-1-1 with Trayvon Martin’s cries for help in the background. They didn’t *see anything due to dark blinds on their enclosed patio. Their later stories are like Zimmerman’s in that it only breaks down once they start talking/fantasizing. Their later stories are also tainted which was the point (imo) of their last interviews that focused on whether or not they went outside and talked to others at the crime scene. The defense believes because Witness 11 says nice things about George Zimmerman that this is good for them. Unfortunately, the things that were said were not really nice and also put the HOA in a position of liability for their ignorance on NW rules! Witness 11 said Zimmerman is confrontational.
So now we’re left with Witness 6. O’Mara wants to rely on Witness 6’s recanted testimony which will never fly with a jury. Witness 6 said in his 3/20/12 interview that he chatted with his neighbor next door (HOA lady)! Only then does Witness 6 said he knew zimmerman was in red and Trayvon Martin was in black. By then Witness 6 said he didn’t know who was yelling help and didn’t see blows thrown. He said he didn’t know whether the loudness of the noise was coming from the left or from the right — he only knew it had gotten louder as the altercation moved closer. Listen to 11:34 in the 3/20/12 interview:
Witness 6 said the person on the bottom had on red or *white*. He couldn’t see a hood on the guy on top. He couldn’t see their faces. So by now, a month later, Witness 6 says he sees a white shirt/red shirt/patterned outfit on the bottom. Somebody told him that! Was it ex-deputy Osterman? Was it chatter among the neighbors?
FYI, the fired ex-deputy Osterman mentioned above is the friend Shelie Zimmerman called for help the night zimmerman shot unarmed Trayevon Martin. Osterman was at the crime scene before zimmerman was hauled off to the police station and claims only that he didn’t chat.up other officers in depth or Zimmerman. Did he help the witness statements along while on the scene? Somebody did!
Osterman details here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html#storylink=cpy
Imo, it doesn’t matter the position top or bottom John saw because we know other witnesses saw a different position afterwards. Witness 6 said he saw someone in *white* or red on the bottom, but that wasn’t the final position per other witnesses.
The pro-zimmerman discredited witness 3 saw a “white” tee-shirt guy on top. She saw the altercation some time AFTER Witness 6 and captured the gunshot on her 9-1-1 call.
The media trashed Witness 3 as badly as they first attempted to bash Mary, Selma and the teacher. The problem for the defense is that Witness 3 says she *saw* (not just heard) the guy on *top in the *white tee-shirt while she was reporting the event on the undisputed/untainted 9-1-1 call. Like Witness 11’s 9-1-1 and Zimmerman’s recorded police call, Witness 3’s 9-1-1 call is not open for interpretation. It is what it is.
To me, the question is which clothing ‘looked’ more like a white tee-shirt since nobody was there wearing anything white. John (Witness 6) said he saw either red or white. Witness 3 says it was definitely white because it popped. Witness 3 didn’t say it was eggshell white, antique white, bright white. She described what she saw and said it was white because it was the color that popped.
Witness 6 recanted because his details were sketchy and reported after the fact — even on his 9-1-1 call. Witness 11 didn’t *see anything. Witness 3 saw the guy in white on top seconds before the shot -and- caught the shot on her 9-1-1 call.
Which of these colors is most likely to be mistaken for white or appeared to be a tee-shirt?
Zimmerman in light gray shirt: http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb57ef3/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-020/600
Zimmerman with reg/gray patterned “free country” jacket zipped: http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb63fc1/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-047/600
Martin dark gray hoodie (pullover): http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/263512/evidence04.jpg
wow, too bad no one called the cops on him for his suspicious behaviour
question everything trust no one said “co-worker said Zimmerman had been mugged.” I read that in one of the very first articles when this story came out and it has *never* been mentioned again. I guess I need to go dig – it was reported that Zimmerman had been mugged at age 19 by….yes, an African American. That would certainly account for his profiling of Trayvon. If I find anything more, I’ll post. I just find it intriguing that, finally, someone else has brought it up.
The long-awaited M&I bank videos are up on Axion Amnesia. They require downloading a video player which, for some reason, downloaded for me in Spanish (not a big issue but…).
The first one is strange…it shows a lot of people using the ATM, which I rather thought should have been edited out. After all, they have nothing to do with the case.
The others cover a time from about 12.30 to 6.40 which is a LOT of nothingness to watch through. So far at guessed intervals I’ve not found any action at all on them. There’s nothing to indicate true time of day on any of them, either.
Disappointing. Will continue to keep watching.
IF we can establish real times for these, the one thing they’d be good for is to know precisely when the rain was off, light or heavy.
I believe the real time is indicated on the botton right of the videos.
Two different reporters from the Orlando Sentential and Miami Herald didn’t seem to think much of the M&I bank videos. This doesn’t mean ANYTHING though since the clubhouse videos were reported as insignificant at first.
Indeed, there not much to see on the bank’s vids.
It might be Shellie though. At 13:08, the first person, looks like Shellie with similar sunglasses & outfit than in published pictures.
[video src="http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Videos/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Videos/trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_m_i_bank_surveillance_02262012_sanford_florida.mp4" /]
Is the first person driving a Honda Ridgeline too?
I hate choppy time lapsed videos. Why is this done? Does it keep the files smaller? Frustrating!
That’s some funny vid there! LOL
Seriously, though, I thought it was supposed to be something like 3 or 6 hours of video. Maybe we haven’t seen the full release yet.
I wondered if the vids were just another way to show the weather before seeing LeeLee’s speculation below that maybe it’s Osterman on the mp4.
Networking and making “connections” makes for a really crooked world. Here’s a run-down on the “connection” Zimmerman made.
on the last page is a diagram of the crime scene. The location of Trayvons body doesn’t seem to be as far south as i thought it was, it looks like he is just past that first enclosed patio.
Haven’t reviewed the newest dump quite yet. Do you have a page number? Is it an investigator or witness map?
its page 284, part of the death investigation drawn by Orta. Having another look at it it could just be that the scale makes it look like he is not far down the path but it could still be some distance.
Have you seen the newest lot of crime scene photos?
The maps are great, but it’s been easier for me to grasp just how far down he was by looking at the actual scene.
It is where expected Jo… Right behind 1221 TTL, ~50ft south from the T.
Tchoupi – you and I are in agreement on many things. I wish you would take some time to consider the “middle parking spot” that deductive reasoning tells me GZ used AND marked on a map with investigator Singleton and reconsider what you think the pool camera shows.
We’ve not really talked much but our works seems to overlap a lot. I’m impressed with your care and consideration of all the factors involved in deducing things from what’s in the public domain. I’d like your opinion on some things if you can find the time to join flickr, or just comment here.
Anyone else, please look at the last pic in the set and help me decipher the marks GZ made on this map. I think they are important but the copy is poor.
You guys are doing an excellent job keeping track of all the info in this case. Still trying to get through the document dump myself but thank you to all for sharing your insights!!
on his myspace entry he says he calls his friends to help out with his sister and they are all there on their bikes before he even hangs up the phone, then how they do a year and never open their mouths. Sounds like he set something up and they got busted but didn’t rat on him. pg 224. Says he opened his own insurance company.
I read somewhere that he worked for his uncle’s insurance company. Liars doing what they do, lie and apparently this family has a history of lying about their status.
oops George might be in trouble when Shellie finds out he was meeting up with the ex. The ex also mentions that george wouldn’t put himself in harms way, he had other people that would “handle things” for him (like he says in myspace). I guess that was before he had a gun to handle things for him. She also says he had a temper towards her but never saw it with others.
lol, I thought about that too, I said uh oh somebody was creeping. Could still be creeping seeing how I could have sworn she was the one who called him racist. If she was not the one then where did that young lady go to?
Witness #9. Statement to be released Monday per the blogosphere.
I made a note of that, too. 🙂
page 143 – zimmerman’s ex-fiance got married to someone else and zimmerman married shel-lie. zimmerman started contacting his ex-fiance again in 2010 and they saw each other a few times from 2010-2011. zimmerman told his ex-fiance that he wanted children, but his current wife did not.
What do you think about this part?
page 141 – zimmerman was caught by his ex-fiance lying on the bed with his teenage neighbor playing with her baby.
“What do you think about this part?
page 141 – zimmerman was caught by his ex-fiance lying on the bed with his teenage neighbor playing with her baby.”
Gives me the creeps.
That part jumped out at me, too. While lying on a bed with someone doesn’t automatically equate to something sexual, I would the situation described does not exactly seem appropriate. It makes me wonder how they end up in a bedroom lying down on a bed in the first place.
If the ex-fiancée recalled the event, there was probably something weird/noteworthy about it. Otherwise, it would have just been George lying on the bed with another person and a baby.
Good point. I need to go back and look at her statement again. It makes me wonder if they were inappropriately close, if he was looking at her a certain way, etc. to make the ex remember such an event. I suppose I remember all my experiences with older guys when I was underage, and I remember most of the older guys did not have completely innocent intentions.
Interested to know if W9 and the ex are indeed the same people, and if it is, why she said he did not like black people then changed her statement.
Same experience here. I don’t think W9 is the ex any longer. W9 is damaging on the racial aspect. It is apparently so damaging to Zimmerman that O’mara is willing to risk asking for a recusal of Judge Lester for no legally-based reason.
“It is apparently so damaging to Zimmerman that O’mara is willing to risk asking for a recusal of Judge Lester for no legally-based reason.”
O’Mara would never admit it but he must love the MSMs coverage of this case so far. For example, my mom is a casual news follower and thinks Trayvon beat Zimmerman up pretty bad (bloodied head pic courtesy of ABC) and that he had the right to fire a warning shot (because a chest shot would be excessive).
Something in this witness statement may change the MSMs coverage. Meaning, my mom would be more critical of Zimmerman’s story/character.
That’s my take, too. I first though she may have been jealous, but she later clarified that she didn’t think they were doing anything. Instead, she felt what he was doing was inappropriate. That spells weird and creepy to me, too!
I’m also not suggesting he’s a pedo. I think he’s a cowardly abuser seeking out what he perceives as weaker victims.
I can’t get out of my mind that Zimmerman’s first brush with the law was defending a _teenage_ friend and assaulting an ATF officer busting up a place serving alcohol to teens. Does he hate teens or does he want everybody else to hate teens so he can use them as an object of his abuse?
woops! that was @qetno…
I hate judging people I don’t know, especially with such little history about one’s past, but it just seems he is socially stunted or something. I don’t know if he hung out with teens to use/abuse, but I think it’s more likely he thought he could impress them by buying them alcohol and getting them in places. I am curious to know how old the teens were, especially the teen he was lying in bed with that day. 13-19, so they could be quite young or almost legal.
Nothing there except from this old social worker’s point of view,makes her look creepy for remembering this nonevent and mentioning it to back up her GZ is creepy. And, frankly, him slapping her back is under tit for tat young n’ foolish folder. I think Lester was correct in pooh pooing that. However, under the “is he a BTK in training”,which I am mulling, GZ kicking her dog in stomach is important.
Google” Dr.Hare and BTK”. Dr. Hare is foremost expert on serial killers. Everyone is familiar with childhood triad markers, animal abuse, prolonged bed-wetting,& setting fires. Hare points out need for control and power to the extreme, as is often found in pseudo cop positions ,is an important marker in adulthood. And begins manifesting itself in middle 20’s males.
Btw, thanks for everyone’s hard work so computer/lazy folks like myself can learn about this fascinating case-in depth.
Oppos, should be under @CSFC
Pg. 204: Results of analysis of Trayvon’s shirt and hoodie: Consistent with a contact shot.
p 142: Interesting that the ex’s dog bit GZ’s face during their fight that led to the restraining order… and later GZ needed to get a gun to defend himself against dogs.
… and of course on the same page (142), the ex says that GZ filed a restraining order with the reverse of what hers said.
Caught that too. I wonder if the dog bite left a permanent scar.
page 142 – zimmerman refused to leave his ex-fiance’s new place of residence and asked if he could sleep on the couch. zimmerman snatched her cell phone and put it in his pocket. ex-fiance’s dog bit zimmerman on the face near the jaw and she was able to retrieve her phone and call the police. zimmerman ran before the police arrived.
This matches her statement I read online a few months ago about why she filed the complaint. I read it on a page on facebook called ” the real reason zimmerman attorneys quit” or something like that. I have tried to find it but it was taken down. It had all of his run ins with the law, crumps letters to the first lawyers, etc. It was very interesting.
pg 87 the video recording system of the club house was 18 minutes slow… how does this affect the analysis done here of those videos?
It doesn’t. We were never given the times from the recordings.
The time-line we have is mostly from the tremendous work put into it by Tchoupi, who found the images of red&blue lights coming in (T smith and the emergency vehicle) and worked out real-life times from that, as the arrival times of these vehicles is known from police logs.
excellent…someone took plate numbers of 2 vehicles and they were registered to residents….either George was one of those residents or Shellie had already moved the vehicle. No police reports mention Shellie being there, but that ex deputy said he met her there.
STILL haven’t read the newest dump but how did Shellie and the bald guy know where to meet Zimmerman after he shot Trayvon? Jon?
If so, it’s interesting Jon could give directions but Zimmerman couldn’t minutes before when talking to police.
Also, it’s a CRIME SCENE — were they supposed to flock to it? And, an officer didn’t suggest Jon (or whoever gave Shellie and the bald guy directions) not invite people over to a CRIME SCENE? Again, a crime scene and not a parade.
And, how about video from inside the responding vehicles?!?
To summarize my read of this dump; witnesses are confused. There were at least 4 mentions of a T shirt, which was not visible on either TM or GZ at any time. One even says GZ was put in the police car in a tan tshirt. So lesson is, witnesses mix up details, times etc.
I get the feeling that the argument is missing from GZs story, all together. That is critical. Numerous witnesses hear an argument in association with these voices changing location. GZ mentions nothing about any argument. SO lets deduce what the argument likely is. We know GZ is wanting to somehow deliver TM to the police. Did he use his bouncer moves to somehow try to detain TM? Did he grab his wrist and twist it back? Twist TM’s arm behind his back? What if he grabs TM, puts him in some kind of detainment position, and starts trying to walk him back toward his car, where there are lights, and the police are expected to be. Maybe at the top of the T, Trayvon breaks free, and Trayvon has reason for really fight this attacker who is attempting to kidnap him.
The Asian man witness is an interesting one. Came running around the corner with a flash light and his iphone and took three pictures. Would be interesting to see the position of Trayvon’s body in the picture he took.
The details of GZ from friends and witnesses paint a picture of an paranoid, overzealous, delusional stalker obsessed with making himself a hero. The physical abuse from his domineering mother must be where he got his tendency for explosive violence.
Also missing is a huge gap of how TMs body gets from the standard crime scene “running man” pose to off the sidewalk into the grass with his arms beneath him. That body moves around too much!
We know Jon (W13) called Shellie. My guesses are that 1) Jon simply used GZ’s phone and 2) GZ was trying to reach her on his cellphone when Jon took the picture of his head.
Finally, it is also documented that neighbors started to crowed the area. Actually, Cheryl Brown, Austin’s mother, could not come back in the complex from Walmart, because the gates were blocked by police aqnd traffic was probably controlled within the complex. All that to say that Shellie could have easily walked from her home to the crime scene. There is no way to know who was there. So, I won’t bother much about that.
Jo, could you put e reference to your comment concerning the 2 vehicles?
Which makes me wonder how Zimmerman’s good ole buddy the ex-deputy Mark Osterman got into the complex. Was he already there? Didn’t somebody here ask a while back about why Zimmerman would leave his friend at his house with Shellie as he headed out to buy groceries?
“Didn’t somebody here ask a while back about why Zimmerman would leave his friend at his house with Shellie as he headed out to buy groceries?”
Yes. Comment wasn’t mine but…
I grocery shop by myself…a lot. Actually, I do all the grocery shopping. But, I’d obviously never go to the store if I had a bro over. He’d want to come with me or I’d just shop later.
The question was mine, and what you said last has exactly been my point/thoughts.
It’s not strange to me that a guy would do the shopping. I know lots of guys (not just the single ones) who do the shopping…they do it because they are quicker at it and/or spend less money. It seemed weird to me none of the officers note this person being around the scene in their reports. It made me think his buddy was over that night, and I can’t see someone running to the store for grocery shopping in the rain with a buddy visiting. I would think it would be put off or the person would go with.
The bloody head photo shows GZ holding what appears to be a cell phone to his ear. He could have called Osterman first, and directed w13 to call SZ, we really don’t know. But I agree that he may have simply handed the phone to W13 or directed him to use it.
I’ve always questioned the idea that ofc. Smith handcuffed him right away. I’d love to interview w13 in depth…
Osterman admits speaking to officers, and most importantly to GZ when he says he didn’t speak “in depth” to cops or GZ that we see in the summary of the FDLE interview with Osterman. This aspect deserves vigorous investigation, and I hope that occurred, but don’t know yet.
I’ve always felt GZ’s statements were scripted, but here we finally have evidence of an opportunity for incident-specific coaching to have taken place. This is the “good old boy” network factor that I think has been swept under the rug somewhat.
GZ could have spoken w Osterman on the phone and on the scene, or both times, and the SPD investigation did not “uncover” or report it happening. Serino seems to leave Osterman out of what we’ve heard him say or write, and that’s frustrating to me, since his investigation was the primary one and anything in its wake is compromised by the passage of time and the questions unasked, etc. Was there a poor investigation or a cover-up of an accomplice’s involvement? We can’t really know yet. There may be an innocent (somewhat) explanation for all this but at the root of it I feel Osterman aided in tampering with an investigation if he had a part in the moving of GZ’s vehicle. And he had the potential, and means, motive and opportunity to do a lot more tampering, it seems as well as coaching of the murder suspect prior to questioning by investigators.
“I’ve always questioned the idea that ofc. Smith handcuffed him right away. ”
You know what they call cops who do it any other way?
Let’s just say it involves the phrase “fallen in the line of duty” in public and “what in the hell was that idiot thinking” in private.
I think Serino came oame on the crime scene after Zimmerman had already left. Presumably, so had Shellie Zimmerman and Mark Osterman if they followed behind the officers transporting Zimmerman. Would be nice if there was some confirmation of that, though.
Actually that abusive mother bit fits also nicely with his father saying at the 2nd bond hearing that he’d heard George scream like that… back in Virginia.
That of course is not proof it was him this time. To call for help, perhaps. To scream like that? in terror? he had no reason. Trayvon did.
Tchoupi – it is on page 3. I need to get some sort of system so i can keep track of all this evidence haha. I read about something and react emotionally instead of cognitively. I don’t know how you guys do it and remember all the facts and witnesses and times and interviews but it’s very impressive…yeah i really need a system, lol.
pg 78 Shellie Zimmerman went to the scene???? This civilian got a call from shellie on the 26th Feb (a guy george would go shooting with) and met her at the scene but did not talk to George or the officers in depth (doesnt say he didn’t talk to them, just not in depth).
VERY interesting witness. GZ and Shellie went to stay with him for a month before leaving the state. He was PRESENT AT THE RE-ENACTMENT, together with GZ’s father.
However GZ told him a slight different version of what happened, which is worth picking to pieces. Especially his description of how the shooting happened (at end of page 2 of his statement). GZ had his (gun-arm) elbow on the ground????? what kind of angle is that possible from?
Impossible! Did you also catch that he flipped/rotated the gun? All the while using the same arm to pin Trayvon Martin’s arm down.
Which means…the confessed murder had the gun positioned for a left-handed draw….and he shows us how he drew when he was supposedly reaching for the phone. And we know when he supposedly reaches for the phone….way too much detail there and too cute by half.
Caught my attention like WHAT?!
page 77-78 – zimmerman tells his friend who he was staying with after the shooting that 3 neighbors came out during the altercation and he asked each for help and each of them went back inside their homes. zimmerman told him that he “slapped Martin’s hand away from the handgun, pulled the handgun, rotated his weapon and then fired one round”.
this is the person that shellie called and he met shellie “at the scene” and accompanied her to the police station where they waited in the lobby until zimmerman was released the next morning. he said neither he nor shellie talked to george zimmerman or the officers at the scene “in depth”.
shellie zimmerman applied the butterfly bandages once they got home (to the friend’s place?). zimmerman also told this friend that he got out of his car to go find Trayvon Martin.
this friend of zimmerman’s is a former Seminole County Deputy and he taught zimmerman how to shoot and they frequented the shooting range together. he met george zimmerman after shellie and his wife became good friends. he presided over the zimmerman’s wedding and his wife got george zimmerman a job.
The story did get weird when he discusses where they went after leaving the police station. If they went straight to the friend’s house and never left, I believe that is consciousness of guilt. Even if they went home immediately after to get some things and went to the friend’s house, I would say it is the same. GZ fled the scene of the crime almost immediately by leaving his home before anyone even really knew about the case, certainly no one outside of Sanford.
Heh – and you needed confirmation that Shellie put those stupid behind jacked up bandages on him???? lol Plain as day, not licensed medical professional applied those shade-tree bandages.
whoa come on now. This guy was a Seminole County deputy. He housed the Zims for 4 to 6 weeks after the shooting. George goes into great detail telling everyone every little word uttered, every feeling, details details details. He has repeatedly stated he was hit, fell to the ground at the T except when he was standing in the exact spot, then apparantly a plague of flies swarmed and he went into a swatting frenzy before he hit the deck. But this unidentified guy that met Shellie at the scene and waited with her at the police station (guess shellie did move the car very quickly then) said that George claimed 3 witnesses came out of their houses, that george looked them in the eye and yelled HELP on 3 seperate occasions. It is very detailed, but i’m only aware of 1 person saying they went outside. He also says Zimmerman tried to locate Trayvon and couldn’t find him so was going back to his car. He also says when Trayvon reached for the gun he slapped his hand away, grabbed the gun, ROTATED IT, and shot. What does this mean, is it gun talk or did he physically have to turn the gun around before shooting?
Apparently this guy was present for the reenactment…did they sell tickets or what? and the third interview but did not coach at all.
Sorry for my many posts, i just keep finding things that seem odd.
The witness on pp 77-80 is indeed very interesting.
What he says GZ told him about the events shows one more time that GZ can’t keep one story straight. I just completed a line-to-line comparison table of GZ’s accounts to police that I see another new. OK, my comparison table stops before the struggle.
Here are a few points that caught my attention:
1) During the interview with Serino on Feb 29th, GZ is asked repetitively what set TM up. GZ always answers that he doesn’t know because he did nothing. To his friend GZ says he made eye contact with TM while on the phone with dispatcher. I think this is a question Serino specifically asked. I’ll check again but I remember GZ said that it never happened.
2) He also says that he fell on his butt and then on his back as a result of the 1st punch. With the officers he can’t remember details of how he ended up on the ground. However, that new account is more consistent with someone stumbling after a backward motion following a punch in the face.
3) TM was sitting in GZ’s stomach with his knees on the ground. I have to check again with Serino’s interrogation but I remember he specifically asked and GZ answer was that TM had a lower position. In any case, it looks impossible to grab a gun in pant when lying on the ground with someone sitting on the stomach.
4) The 3 witnesses is totally new. We know W6 (John) and his account is well documented and confirmed by other witnesses. We know W15 (Austin) but he couldn’t remember any interaction with him in other statements. Who could be the 3rd witness? Austin’s dog? My take is that GZ is just trying to make the point that nobody helped him and felt that John was not enough so he had to ad two more “cowardly” [in GZ’s story] acting neighbors.
5) Rotating the gun is interesting too. I just add it to the breakdance move he made to explain how he grabbed his gun during reenactment.
6) TM pivoted 90deg!!!! It would be interesting to check how it fits with the final position of TM and what W6 (John) explained to Police.
Maybe this guy is trying deliberately to look like he’s insane!
And to point four, also mitigating his culpability…he had to shoot Trayvon because of other people’s failings mainly not helping. He will not be held accountable for anything, point by point, he is always projecting blames on others which is probably something he learned as a survival mechanism from the abuse.
The three people that say they were outside would be John (to tell them to stop and he was calling 911) then Austin (walking dog) then the other woman (don’t know her witness # at the moment, I apologize) who says she went out to let her dog out, saw her neighbor talking to someone on the ground then heard him say 911, which freaked her out, so she pulled her dog in the house, locked doors, and set her alarm before going upstairs to look out her bathroom window.
I find it incredibly odd he would notice the three people under the circumstances he claims.
Yep apparently tickets were sold for the re-enactment as well as for the original crime scene. And who knows how many interviews etc.
Doesn’t matter if Jonathan didn’t give directions, Shellie knew he was in the estate, won’t take long to drive around and see where all the cops are with the lights flashing. Not long to move the car either, tho’ why she’d think it needs moving in a hurry is another story.
Heck. ROTATED? to Serino he said grabbed the wrist (“wrist control”) and also that he had to go around his own other hand (that he was holding the wrist with). Not quite “rotated” but close enough to explain using that word if ever it comes up.
If he really meant rotated, ie it really WAS holstered for left hand across-body draw…….. murder 2.
And then it makes a lot of sense (and either quick thinking or rehearsal) to re-holster it before the police arrive – into an internal right-hand-usable position.
Well except he had it out before, didn’t he? isn’t that why Trayvon was trying to pin him down?
Re the 3 witnesses — Jo don’t forget the 2 women, who asked him a few times if he’s okay. On his version at this stage he was still restraining the dead boy thinking he’s alive. And still claiming he was still calling for help, unaware the screaming and shot and end-of-screaming had been taped.
This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.
“This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.”
That’s EXACTLY what I had been thinking all along. Staged, pre-planned exit strategy. Call wife, she’ll know who to call. Say certain buzz words (repeatedly) to ensure self-defense. Put hands on head. Say you left the body one way to cast doubt on what the police did.
But I do believe he was hell-bent on killing somebody, maybe not today, but as soon as the opportunity presented itself. February 26, 2012 just happened to be the day. I also think he targeted a black teen since he thought killing a black teen would be easily dismissed. After all, he’d already called in numerous other black teens.
If he’s not evil, he’s crazy, imo.
I think he’s a lot stupid and a little crazy. Who in their right mind runs after someone they think is a potentially armed criminal?! I had a situation once where I saw a person walking from the space between my neighbor’s house and mine between 1-3a; the person had on all black clothing, and positioned their body at an angle, so all I could see was their back as they walked away to the closest street. Their head was turned fully to the side with the hood pulled over their face and their hands in the pocket. My instinct was certainly not to go after them; in fact, I could not get my keys in the door fast enough!
Exactly! Serino said it real succinctly. “That’s not fear”.
Glad you chose wisely and you’re here to post you excellent insight into life’s real experiences.
Funny how real life experiences prepares us to handle real life situations and the fake scenarios get you caught.
And we know on two occasions at least his instinct was to fight, not flee, no matter how mild-mannered or meek his friends, family and coworkers claim he is. On another 911 call, I need to reboot as I’m not having much success with audio, ShelLIE is in the background and stops him from going out to pursue someone, with gun in tow no doubt.
I have heard about that call, but I, myself, have not heard it. If you could provide me with a link to the call, I’d be happy to take a listen.
From what I’ve read, GZ says something along the lines of “I ought to just…” and SZ tells him no and not to go out there/go after, and he supposedly asks her “Why not?” That would be very interesting to hear, if it is indeed what was said!
“This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.”
“That’s EXACTLY what I had been thinking all along. Staged, pre-planned exit strategy. Call wife, she’ll know who to call. Say certain buzz words (repeatedly) to ensure self-defense. Put hands on head. Say you left the body one way to cast doubt on what the police did.”
OR, a man who benefitted from criminal justice classes!!! I am sure they lectured about cases, fingerprints, dna, crime scenes, etc. Take a look below at the curriculum that he studied. click on: introduction to murder course.
I would love to see his course completion schedule…wow!
I’ve come to the conclusion the ‘HELP’ GZ claims to have been calling out was for W6 John and the other Jon to help him restrain/detain Trayvon. Certainly not out of, or in fear of his life, as he would have us believe.
That’s why during the playback of the 911 call with Serino and you hear the terrifying screams, Serino notices no sign of emotion that one would display after hearing themselves screaming in such a manner, reliving that horrifying event, he says to GZ, “that’s your voice”, He responds that it doesn’t even sound like him.
I agree with your post. They are two distinct yells for help. One in terror, and one just saying the word. I have always thought that when GZ saw people looking out, but knowing it was dark had to yell something to cover his ass.
I agree with you guys, I had my 15 year old to scream like that and he had this distinct crack in his voice, I am sure Trayvon was not done with puberty and my almost 16 year old is definitely not. It is more and more sounding like a very terrified teenage boy. It saddens me to even listen to that 911 call. I already knew he had to be scared beyond relief but to hear it is something completely different, especially if he saw more than one person after him. I really believe as I said before GZ and a few others had something very sinister planned in that neighborhood. I keep thinking about the NW director, she said Zimmerman never gave her a list of others who wanted to join the neighborhood watch but kept inquiring about the burglaries. Why would he want to be the only one patrolling? is it so he could have access to information or how much information the police have? A witness said he was very creepy, roaming around with a flashlight, around peoples homes! If they barely worked how did they afford to live there? I see he was also worried about background checks on renters, yet he was a renter with a criminal past, just because he doesn’t have theft on his record doesn’t mean someone would want him as a neighbor. If I were on the jury I would ask why didn’t he move if he was so disgusted.
In the walkthrough, GZ says he was asking for help to restrain TM (after the shooting, when he thought he was still alive). But that doesn’t fit with the timing of when the screams were heard.
If he never called for help, he would still have to say so
1) it makes his fear for his life sound more real
2) there are people around so he knows they MUST have heard screams so he claims them as his own
3) he does NOT KNOW the screaming and shot were caught on tape, so are known for precise timing (esp. that the last scream stopped at the shot)
If Trayvon was trying to hold GZ down, to stop him using his gun arm, HE would have to call for help. He is in a situation he cannot safely end unless he gets help for disarming GZ. IF he lets up, the gun arm is free (which is how it eventually went down).
If ONLY he’d said “he has a gun” when John looked outside. If only he’d said that.
When the calls for help turn into terror, Trayvon’s already lost the fight and GZ is pointing the gun at him. That is when GZ was in control of the situation and had no more reason to fear for his life – and should NOT HAVE PULLED THE TRIGGER.
“whoa come on now. This guy was a Seminole County deputy”
Guess what he does for a living now? No seriously, guess. LOL
Hint: Cash, passport and a bff that _____________.
Osterman is clearly on the payroll for GZ. He was fired from the Sheriff’s department regarding his employment and suspicious activity surrounding his side job as a private security detail for someone who turned out to be an imposter, posing as a sports figure locally. They talked their way into having a car dealer give them a new car of some sort, the story was reported in the Orlando Sentinel, google it for details.
As an air marshall, he’s familiar with what I would assume to be mostly domestic flights, but should have a working knowledge about international travel and flights as well. Note well that the order for bond states specifically that GZ can’t go to the Orlando airport. This is likely a new condition and may link directly to Osterman, or just be a boilerplate clause to tell GZ to stay the heck out of the airport in case he as a fake ID of some sort handy.
This is all more or less breaking news to me and I’m not the expert on it but wanted to add to the conventional wisdom for those who are just joining in. Sorry if i repeat things.
If that guy is an air marshall, he won’t be one for long. As Frances Robles found out when she contacted the federal agency to verify his employment, they will not confirm employment of any agents because they travel covertly. That would be like someone working for the CIA on covert missions, telling us that they…work for the CIA on covert missions. It would never happen. And do you actually believe that there would be an air marshall who can barely climb steps?
You have a bunch of people in that crew that like to pump themselves up. Without independent verification, I do not believe he works as an Air Marshall. And how exactly would a fired and disgraced LEO come to work for Homeland Security in 2001? Were they even hiring Air Marshalls in 2001?
page 23. Zimmerman had a gun/holster in the right side of his pants. Officer Smith took posession of the gun…AT THE STATION and after Zimmerman had been uncuffed and gone to the loo etc. That doesn’t sound right to me, wouldn’t they take the gun from him at the scene, i mean he just shot someone.
According to the first statement, he took the gun at the scene; even GZ says so in the walk-through.
That statement is a very quick and out-of-order thing, obviously answers to questions, not in the right time order.
ONE interesting thing though, ” had a concealed weapons permit IN HIS WALLET”.
So he did have a wallet on him. This was not taken into evidence custody (nor apparently was his underwear). Not that either would really have much evidentiary value, when they’re just looking for blood and gun spatter.
Fair enough, too, if they let someone go, they have to leave him his driver’s licence and a couple of bucks.
aussie i remember another statement where someone on the scene, emt or police, noted that they saw george in the car sitting with his legs out and a gun on the front seat????? i should have taken down the page number but by that stage i was delerious and was just skimming information. But that sounds a bit odd too.
That caught my attention, too. I didn’t put it in my notes either, but I know I read that. The pdf I’m using isn’t searchable.
The gun is on the front seat, the windows are rolled up, the driver door and the front passenger door and the rear passenger door Zimmerman isn’t sticking out of are locked and there’s a divider between the front and back seats that keeps prisoners in the back seat unable to get to anyone or anything in the front seat.
First thing Smith did was handcuff Zimmerman, second thing he did was remove gun and holster from Zimmerman’s waistband.
Zimmerman’s legs are sticking out ’cause the paramedics have to be able to get to his head to clean it up and check it out.
I’m sure Smith was standing right there ready to empty his clip into Zimmerman if Zimmerman did anything he wasn’t supposed to.
Nothing in any of that to freak out about.
yep THAT one I noticed. EMT I think. Didn’t say if it was bare or bagged though. Guess bagged it would have been safe enough. I imagine there was a cop there with him too.
See? they get in the habit of pretending precision (” I exited my marked police vehicle”) but forget to notice or mention details when those are not routine things but maybe important EVIDENCE. Only one of the 3? 5? 15? police at the scene noticed the key-light was ON. They all saw a body, none saw which way his feet were. What was the accused wearing?
John saus he heard GZ say “The gun is on the ground”? Why would it go back into GZ’s holster?
Various versions of that. In one version GZ told someone he holstered the gun before jumping on to the dead Trayvon to restrain him. In the walkthrough he says he did it as he was standing up from the body when he saw the police arriving. (Definitely not so as he was up and away from the body when the police got there).
At least one witness heard him say “the gun is on the ground” around the time the first person went outside to be be spoken to. So this is the more likely story. The gun they somehow ended up in the holster between this (Jonathan or John) witness appearing and the police arriving. Nobody has stated seeing him re-holster it.
This is a period in which he was walking up and down, not really pacing but going a few steps and stopping to look at the body, then walking again, with his hands to head. The time slot when he had his only chance to mess up the evidence, if any was indeed messed up.
My early theory was he put the key with flashlight near the T in this time. But now I think that really fell there during the fight. I think he had it out to use as a light (the big one having been dropped elsewhere) but also in preparation for opening his car to hold Trayvon in it until the cops arrived. Trayvon broke free near the T and started running south again; that’s where I think GZ went for the gun, to hold him at gunpoint seeing he wasn’t cooperating with an ordinary wrist-hold. No evidence for this though EXCEPT maybe the one 911 called who said “I don’t want to be a witness” which nobody says unless they ARE, ie unless they saw something of value.
So if a crime is committed by someone who carried a razor in their wallet (just in case it was needed to scratch himself up a bit in a concealed fashion) AND he gets away with that part of the “act”, you don’t think he could go the bathroom and flush that evidence right down the toilet? I’m talking about what he leaves the scene with. I’m trying to understand Zimmerman’s special treatment by the police. I think I’ve figured it out now with this new evidence dump, though.
The idea that GZ went to the station with possession of his firearm is speculative, based on a summary or a report done weeks after the event. I don’t say it isn’t a head scratcher worthy of investigation but to report it as fact is foolhardy.
This is a summary of an interview we’ve not heard yet, and the person being interviewed has said in his own report that he disarmed GZ at the scene. I don’t know that I trust ofc Smith, or his report which has suspicious issues of its’ own, including issues regarding the timing of when it was actually written/ released to public, but I can’t say what this new summary really tells us.
Please don’t report things as facts when they have not been established as such.
Does John or Jon ever report seeing GZ disarmed at the scene?
“The idea that GZ went to the station with possession of his firearm is speculative, based on a summary or a report done weeks after the event.”
Hmm.. Not sure your post was directed at me. I don’t put ftorth the notion that a gun was in Zimmerman’s possession any time after it was removed at the scene. My post is above yours, so maybe you replied to the wrong person accidentally.
What I said is:
So if a crime is committed by someone who carried a RAZOR in their wallet (just in case it was needed to scratch himself up a bit in a concealed fashion) AND he gets away with that part of the “act”, you don’t think HE COULD GO TO THE BATHROOM AND FLUSH THAT EVIDENCE right down the toilet? I’m talking about what he leaves the scene with. I’m trying to understand Zimmerman’s special treatment by the police. I think I’ve figured it out now with this new evidence dump, though.
not directed at you – but a rumor is about to start getting out of control regarding the idea that GZ had his gun up until after he was at the station, based only on the grammar of a summary of an interview we’ve not heard in full. Once these things get loose they are impossible to chase down and I hate misinformation. I was replying to something up thread. sorry.
“… a rumor is about to start getting out of control regarding the idea that GZ had his gun up until after he was at the station…”
Think of it as a companion piece to the rumor that’s been floating around for several months that they gave the gun back to him that night when he left the station.
It’s usually said by the people who are convinced that Zimmerman’s dad had the governor on speed dial and secretly controlled the Florida Supreme Court because he’d been a magistrate 5 states away for 6 years 6 years ago.
So we now know, thanks to Frances Robles of Miami Herald, that GZ’s friend is Air Marshal, Mark Osterman
He was present :
1- the night of the shooting after being called by GZ’s wife
2- at the re-enactment – can be seen at 1:05 near a parked truck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewd1l6YWnW4
3- at SPD with GZ on February 29th in this video
Do you guys think this is also Mark Osterman at the end of the BANK video at 18:36 (first video on the page) ?
Stuff on Mark Osterman
Herald report : http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html
Fired from Police department : http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1998-08-18/news/9808170587_1_juan-diaz-osterman-diaz-romero
Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/sondra.osterman#!/mark.osterman.1
leelee thanks for these links, very interesting indeed. They are supporting Bill Lee as well which adds to Natalie Jacksons thoughts that this guy might have close ties will Bill Lee, wonder if Osterman and Lee discussed it at all, might be why he was fired.
just reading Sondra’s page, blind faith in St George, no sympathy for the dead child in fact one good Christian writes “No one wants to talk about the 17 problem that the person was. You know why don’t they stock to the facts.” and when one person says she wishes George listened to police Sondra snaps back “he DID listen to the police and he got his ass kicked for it”. This is good reading.
please screen cap everything before it gets scrubbed
Thanks for the links, Leelee!
EXCELLENT info, Leelee…thank you!!! See Update section.
Here’s a screenshot of Sondra Osterman’s Facebook wall…
Apparently Zimmerman was just doing what he was told by police when he got his “ass kicked”…I guess that evidence is still to come? Ha!
I’ve added the above screenshot to the Update section.
I think when this is all over *she* is going to be the one looking like a fool.
Also, I was scanning the article that was posted to the left, and saw the words “white guilt.” I hate that phrase, and if it were possible to punch a phrase, I would punch that one because it pisses me the fuck off. Such a stupid phrase!! If black people support TM’s side, they are reverse racists. If white people support TM’s side then they are experiencing “white guilt.” Everyone else who is not black nor white is just incapable of thinking for their self and is blinded by the corrupt left-wing media.
I experience no such thing called “white guilt,” but what I do experience is a whole lot of contempt for a law man wannabe that sees a person then assumes he KNOWS who this person is (a criminal) and what they plan to do (commit a criminal act), and with his false notion proceeds to act like he has some authority to go after said person with a loaded weapon. In addition, I have contempt for people who assume this is not a reason for someone to fear for their safety. GZ could do whatever the fuck he wanted, but TM shouldn’t be out in the dark, shouldn’t be walking in this community, shouldn’t have looked in any direction or at anyone, should have worn something else, should have called 911, should have ran, should have answered GZ, and TM when felt threatened should have let GZ do whatever the fuck he wanted to him, but shouldn’t have fought back.
Sorry, I don’t know these people’s “white guilt,” but I do know and experience contempt for really stupid people.
I apologize for the rant. Feel free to delete.
HOLY CRAPTASTIC BATMAN!!! You just nailed it. I had to pick my laptop off the floor because i just high fived your ass so hard it flew accross the room…hahaha. Love your passion!!
Ditto! I see it as an attempt to divide hispanics, blacks and whites in a n election year. Oh, no, I’m not a wingnut and I don’t think it is Obama that was wrong to say Trayvon Martin looked like him (because he was tall and skinny) just as I don’t think Obama was wrong when he said the white woman (Sandra Fluke) that slammed Rush Limbaugh reminded him of his daughter’s future plights in the area of decision-making regarding important issues (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/06/news/la-pn-obama-rush-limbaugh-sandra-fluke-20120306).
I KNOW that any people — white, black, hispanic, asian — can be racists even against their own. But I also know for a fact that most of us are NOT racists. My own family is comprised of every race, sexual orientation and religion. My hispanic family thinks George is evil and ignorant. My catholic family thinks what Zimmerman did was wrong and showed no mercy. My gay family also thinks Zimmerman bullied the child and should be held accountable.
Yeah, I agree. White guilt is a made up word to impose guilt-trips on people looking for easy answers.
Speaking of elections/election year… I would love a blind election! What I mean: No knowing the candidates’ political party, race, sex, religion, not getting to hear or see the person, but just getting to read each candidate’s campaign and base a decision on that. I think some people would absolutely melt if they actually had to think, LOL.
That *would be awesome. Maybe that will come 100 years or so beyond where we are. I would prefer a blind referendum on all policy. The politicians are supposed to work for us, not party leaders or lobbying groups or other monied weasles.
Unbelievable! I cannot believe the way the pro-zimmerman cult thinks.
Nice links, Lee Lee!
It sure looks like him to me. He’s wearing glasses at the bank, but still seems like it might be the same guy that was perhaps “body guarding” Zimmerman at the police station.
O’Mara just filed a motioin to disqualify Judge Lester! Wow!
WTF! O’Mara reads the Conservative Nuthouse to much.
Reads it?? did you miss the bit about a week ago where someone from the nuthouse wrote to MOM and invited him to meeting to discuss strategy with them? and he supposedly replied? positively? (they published the reply).
Was the meeting in Colorado? I read something about it, but can’t remember. Perhaps it was online and digitally recorded.
wow i just read it, thanks for posting. O’Mara is rambling like he did at the second bond hearing. This is embarrassing for them i would say. Now it’s all Lesters fault. Just because George talked and talked without a lawyer and made himself available it doesn’t mean he is innocent, what about the quality of those interviews, the contradictions, the details he tells his work mate, his deputy buddy, his estranged family etc, but as soon as someone points out a contradiction he ‘can’t remember’ or just goes eerily silent. This whole thing looks like George wrote it, the only thing he didn’t put in there is “waaaaaaah, it’s not faaaaaiiirrrr”.
Thanks you for posting the motion!
What, if anything have we learned about witness 4, 7 and 10 now?
Can someone here provide a partial key to what witness numbers go with what summaries?
To me learning about 4, 7 and 10 was one of the highlights I was looking for, that and the interview with Serino and the total station evidence map.
The rest, not so much.
Also, which interview is Frank Taaffe and what did we learn about him? I saw it in passing but haven’t gone back to read it all more closely. I had to take time to overlay the evidence maps with my own…
I’m dissapointed with what Serino had to say. Can’t remember in detail at this mo but he really seemed to think George was full of it but then says he was pressured into pressing charges. I think he backed way off and wonder why.
When he wanted to charge him they refused to do the necessary extra investigation. He had to go public and back up Lee to say there wasn’t enough evidence. Then the others maybe wanted him charged anyway when he felt they’d lose.
I think he was very much the meat in the sandwich. I well believe he chose the peaceful late night muggings-only street patrol as a good quiet life by comparison.
i can understand that he had to support lee publicly, but when the FBI came knocking i think he back tracked too much. He seemed convinced that zim wasn’t telling the truth, singleton called zimmerman out on his BS too, but when the FBI spoke to him he didn’t offer much except that he was pressured by 3 others including someone he said was “friendly” with tracy martin. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/12/bombshell-serinos-fbi-interview-shows-three-other-people-on-the-sfd-pressured-him-to-press-charges/#more-43905
Serino knew GZ was lying about the events before the physical altercation, and had serious doubts about the smothering and of course the actual self-defense claim. His investigation did great work in coaxing GZ to give so many statements and accounts of the night. GZ told a series of lies that can be proven as lies when compared to the recorded call’s timeline, including absolute proof that GZ parked in the middle position he marked on a map but quickly amended before inventing the “TM doubled back/circled/ hand in waistband” lie that he is caught red-handed in when finally played the recording. Parking in this position, on the first curve on TTL shows that GZ drove behind TM and this is why TM ran, and of course GZ can be heard exiting his car 3 seconds after saying “sh*t, he’s running” and admitting to dispatch he’s following the teen. That leads into GZ lying to investigators saying he was already at RVC when he said “he ran,” since GZ also claims he himself did not run or jog and the distance is too far for this to be true. In other words, the prosecution can use the work of Chris Serino, who will of course confirm in court the veracity of the statements, to impeach GZ’s credibility 100% up until the very brink of the physical altercation. The very next thing in GZ’s account after “he ran” is his inconsistent description of his conversation end with Sean the recorded dispatcher, and his missing minutes before allegedly walking back to the T, allegedly to(wards) his vehicle. Aside from leaving out the “missing minutes,” and putting together all the deductive reasoning himself, it seems Serino knew this story was a false narrative. But he never found a star witness – he did find W2 and her glance at a foot chase – and he got GZ on record hemming and hawing about the smothering, but he likely felt this was not strong enough to go to trial with.
But he never knew about Dee Dee, and he didn’t seemingly tell the FBI about the car-to-pedestrian chase narrative that GZ’s lies strongly infer.
I think he’s a normal good cop in a town with few murder cases and I wish him well. He’s off the case now except to come to trial and confirm what he found out. I doubt he leaked anything to anyone, pro or con to GZ’s public image. He publicly backed his boss Bill Lee in one joint interview and has kept his mouth shut to the press. He did his job and KEPT his job where others are gone. I think he handled himself intelligently and deserves to be left alone unless he feels like writing a book – which I would buy.
i really liked the way Serino handled Zimmerman. I still think he is a good guy who was doing the best he could. Maybe he didnt have the evidence he thought he needed, but i thought he would rip zim to shreds in the FBI interviews. It didnt happen. I am dissapointed but i still respect the guy. He tried to get to the truth and i respect him for that.
Some of this is inter-departmental rivalry. It’s hard to know how Serino may have felt having his investigation superseded by outside agencies. In one sense he seems to have said “here you go, it’s your mess now.” Keep in mind this is just a summary we are looking at about what he told the FBI, whose mandate was to find out if GZ had violated TM’s civil rights – not an internal investigation of SPD (that was done, and we have not seen those documents) nor was this an interview by the special prosecutors who have an interest in solving how the altercation went down. Id’ say Serino had motivation to keep his comments to a minimum and only answer what he is specifically asked with as few words as possible. He is no fool, and he knows what loose talk does – it’s get you in trouble.
I would buy his book, too, if he ever wrote one. I actually believe he moved to a different beat because he wanted to find out what the F is wrong with the rest of them and he hopes to dispell the sickness he’s now aware of. I don’t think he felt pressured to file charges unless he meant he was being pressured by both sides to either go with what he knows or succumb to pressures from the do NOT file charges side (his bosses and their “network” of “connected” friends).
I am grateful that Serino got a lot of info for the prosecution to work with.
Yeah. I wonder if Serino was pressured into NOT filing charges, which is the more likely scenario, imo. TalkLeft (a site that posts the ConservativeTreeHouse crowd’s garbage) has changed what Serino said to leave a false impression. When called on it by at least one poster, a refusal to make the correction ensued.
Apparently, page 2 of Serino’s interview was missing from the doc dump2 which makes it 285 pages released. There was supposed to be over 300 pages. Where are the rest of the pages?
In any event, Serino talked out of both sides of his mouth to get to the bottom of witness statements. I noticed that early on. He got good info from many of the witnesses by doing so. Most importantly, he got the info needed from Zimmerman that will ultimately put Zimmerman away in jail on murder 2.
Serino offended some early on with his style of questioning, but I’m not ready to hold that against him given the amount of info he uncovered.
Serino’s MO was to keep GZ talking, and play “good cop.” The “voice stress test” is just a ruse to get GZ on the record one more time telling his entire narrative fresh to someone without being questioned. Singleton led him too much in her initial interview, and was probably told she’d messed up. This is not how you handle a murder suspect – filling in the last part of thier sentences and asking leading questions. No, you just give them enough rope and keep the tape rolling. GZ “passed” the test so he felt he could keep talking and that officers were on his side. It gained them the video walk thru and kept him from calling a lawyer.
He aslo said in the stress test narrative the following:” my rough notes only, sorry no transcript:
and i went to go for my phone instinctively
and call 911
and i reached and i was looking
and he just punched me in the nose and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up
This is what a “good cop” does. He keeps the suspect talking and not asking for a lawyer.
Serino caught GZ in several major lies in the final session, and then went out to continue his investigation while STILL leaving GZ the impression that he was on his side. He’s no fool.
Willisnewton, BRILLIANT!! I had looked up reliability/validity test for the voice analysis and shows almost zero….close to horoscopes in scientific validity. So I was wondering why SPD would use something that was parallel to Casey Anthony unproved tests. I couldn’t believe they hadn’t learned anything from that equally high profile case. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!
Well thanks, its not brilliant tho, it’s police work 101. And the moral of the story is NEVER talk to a cop without a lawyer present, ESPECIALLY if you are innocent. GZ should have known better with his 2 years of criminal justice schooling and his magistrate father and air marshall friend. He’s an idiot who talked his way into a prison sentence IMO like a drunk trying to get out of a DUI by being friendly with the “occifer” who pulled him over. Cops are good at biting their lips while fools hang themselves.
i have been waiting since the first discovery dump for 4 7 and 10. Been posting about it for awhile now. Its been driving me insane that they did not include those three in the latest dump.
If you go to Axiom they have a breakdown of all witness with summary and 911 calls.
Yes there are summaries of witnesses at axiom, and also TalkLeft has a whole subforum thread for each one, and tchoupu has a good breakdown on his imgur site.
I’ve seen nothing new however about 4 7 and 10, who remain mystery persons at present unless I am mistaken. The index of the materials supposedly released this week says summaries of 4 7 and 10 are to be included.
Also of course the prosecution claims a foot chase witness, and at the last bond hearing claims chase witnesses PLURAL. Is this W2 and DeeDee or does it refer to 4, 7 and /or 10??
Patience, patience. We’re going to know. 🙂
Yeah, I wish they would have given up 4,7 and 10, too. Maybe next month? I think early on, people speculated that those were slots for zimmerman’s statements (best 3 of 5?).
It’ll come. I’m still waiting for the full 300+ dump2 (not 284/285 pages) and for the full M&I video.
Ah, Common Sense I have alot of virtues but patience is not one of them.
WHAAAAAT? Zimmerman asks for new Judge…AGAIN.
The less time wasted here on this matter, the better I’d say. Lester will either recuse himself (doubtful) or toss the motion. None of the merits of the case will change as a result.
The prosecution will file a rebuttal early next week, should be fun to read that one, but this is a bald faced attempt by the defense to play to the cheap seats and get more donations, I’d say. The claim lacks merit, esp since Lester signaled no bias and granted GZ his bond request.
What M’OM wrote reads like a wingnut fantasy comment from the Conservative Treehouse and is a page from their playbook that, like a lot of their whining, leads nowhere. But it may rehabilitate M’OM with the lunatic fringe that feels he is “soft,” and thus has acted to slow the flow of funds to “Peter Pan” (and the lost boys’ bank accounts) aka the defense fund.
Yup, requesting more favorable treatment is not relevant to the criminal case; just reporting the newest event. Legal analysts believe it is just SOP that will not be entertained.
am i the only one who thought the scared phone call from an anon woman saying George and family were racist was the ex. After reading the latest release it certainly isn’t the ex fiance that had a domestic violence order out on him so it must be someone else. Wonder if anything else will come of it.
I’m very, very confused about that after reading the statement from the ex. The Judge is allowing the release of the second recorded statement from W9; it was in a ruling today, but we’ll have to wait if that ruling is challenged considering they are trying to kick him off.
Most suspect it is the ex, bit others have wondered if it is someone who knows the father and mother better than she may have. GZ was somewhat estranged from the family, apparently since his mother allegedly beat him and there are some personal issues we don’t fully know about going on there. Does it really matter who it is? They knew GZ and have some things to say about him that I think I heard were corroborated elsewhere.
My curiosity is piqued by the revelations regarding GZ’s fidelity issues when he was with the ex, but only in regards to how that will play out as Shellie contemplates her perjury charge and how loyal she cares to remain to George. No one has a perfect relationship, and I don’t like the prurient, voyeuristic sick feeling I get listening to jailhouse phone calls but this is where the case may break wide open, if Shellie decides her first loyalty is to herself and not a lying husband, if that is her assessment of him when the final moment comes for her case.
I think the whole family might be caught in a criminal conspiracy of some sort and each is sitting metaphorically around a table eyeing the other to see who will crack first in return for immunity from prosecution. DId the father know about the hidden money, etc? (lots to consider there – is GZ in the habit of lying to his dad or was the dad in the loop on $ and/or passport? it’s one or the other.) Who is “ken?” How did the mom assume they paid back her $4500 loan? and so on.
The person who has a grudge against GZ is just a small leak in the dike that holds a floodwater of dirty water, I’d guess. How long until someone cracks?
I’ve read that “Ken” is actually someone named Scott. Apparently, in the jail calls they are talking about “Ken,” but then SZ slips up and calls him Scott. I noticed on the list of evidence to be released doc that there was a Scott McLeod (last name might be spelled incorrectly) on the list of witnesses.
thanks! now, next question, who is Scott McLoud?
Still digging on that one! I would like to figure out if his statement is included in what was released and which statement that might be if it was. He is the one advising GZ to keep a lot of cash available, etc. Also, I remember GZ stating that Mark met with Ken, which now I need to dig up those transcripts to see if it denotes if it was O’Mara or his buddy that met with this Ken character.
Second transcript listed on the second page is where SZ slips up and calls him Scott. Still digging for the “met with Mark” part.
Call 5, Page 4! SZ – “I have not heard from O’Mara, but Ken did.” They talk about them having to work some stuff out.
Also, SZ mentions the name Kevin, but who knows if she’s messing up the “Ken” name.
I can’t read anymore of that crap. He talks to her like she’s slow, and she kind of seems like it. Oy.
Thanks, I can’t stand listening to those voices either. My general interest in all this relates to the passport and hidden $ conspiracy, not tabloid rumor mongering about their private lives. It’s all so icky, but the conspiracy question has to be raised “who knew and when did they know it” regarding the passport and money hidden from the court. I said it before and the judge wrote it in almost the same language – but for the GPS on his leg, GZ left jail the first time with means, motive and opportunity to flee the country. He also may have hung around out of greed, as the money was still flowing in. Moving the passport from a joint account is the key – IMO he expected his accounts not to be searched, but SEIZED after he failed to appear at a hearing. Without the GPS on his leg he could have had quite a head start and a “great life” as he told Shellie.
I feel like some sort of creepy eaves dropper when listening to those phone calls, but yes, I’m just looking for who knew what and when. How much did they know, how were they involved, and I would think it interesting to know if any acknowledge the deception aspect of it. I think he had motive, means, and opportunity, and intended to flee if it started looking bad for him. That is my personal opinion. I think he was going to wait it out a bit, let more money roll in, and be prepared to run.
Only a handful of calls were released out of over a hundred, so maybe when those are released, we will have more answers.
Over one hundred? In jail, were they letting him just hang out on the phone all day? Maybe they let him to try to get as much recorded as possible? That seems like an outrageous number of calls though.
I thought the same thing when I heard about all the phone calls, seem very excessive. GZ is a nut. He talks too much.
145, IIRC. It definitely does seem like a lot of calls for such a short time span. Personally, I think he’s a control freak, and does not like when he’s not in control of things.
“Personally, I think he’s a control freak, and does not like when he’s not in control of things.”
Zimmerman will definitely not like 25+ years of being told what to do.
I wondered about this too. Whoever she is, she has a child. I am thinking that it is the teenage mother mentioned by the Ex.
Wow – Holy shit… I didn’t even think about that! Now that would be something, especially since this woman said something along the lines of things GZ had done to her that she would never speak to him about again. Interesting. I guess we will soon find out.
Orlando Sentinel reporting that the Judge ordered the rest of Zimmerman’s jail calls and W9’s statement to be released.
BIG ONE but what does it mean?
Thank you Leelee above in Comment 8. I sweated on these bank videos and then I missed what they meant. But you GOT IT.
is my screen capture of the last customer at the M&I bank Rinehart Rd ATM, and the [person who took GZ out of jail after the second bond. As Leelee says is
MARK OSTERMAN. Check against his Facebook for yourselves, I couldn’t screenshot that.
GUYS: best buddy, shooting teacher, disgraced former deputy, air marshall friend was there BEFORE THE SHOOTING.
He drove out from the ATM at 6.38 pm. A mere 60 – 80 seconds from GZ’s main gate. While it is possible he was just passing through, no need for him to go to this bank, as there is another M&I much closer to where he lives, at Lake Mary.
So, 6.40 or a bit later if he made a detour say to Walmart.
Problem with 6.40 is, that is exactly the time Trayvon would be walking along Orlando Avenue on his way to the corner shortcut.
Didn’t we say all along there was a tip-off?
Well somewhere GZ says his wife is with his friend. Sitting at home? or “I’ll handle it buddy, meanwhile why don’t run Shellie up to Target for me?”
This guy seems to favour black or red T-shirts in case anyone wonders.
I’ve been working and up 26 hours, I can’t do the precise timelines right now.
oh the claim about George being beaten as a kid comes from this witness^^^ who didn’t know him back then. So it is a story obtained from Zimmerman which will need external evidence to back it up.
If I’m ever in Australia, or you’re ever in the USA, I AM BUYING YOU A DRINK!
Thanks for reporting this find! I’ve been saying it was weird that he had a buddy at his place then decided to go grocery shopping all along! Suspicions, CONFIRMED.
Ahh.. So it was you! Good catch and thank you! I just relied on that tidbit above, but couldn’t remember who to thank.
And here I thought it was just my over active mind focusing on a minute detail, lol. It may be relevant after all!
It’ll be interesting to see if his DNA can be placed on the gun, TM, the flashlight, etc.
Is he going for the I’m a sociopath and crazy killer because mommy was mean to me plea?
I knew I knew that bank video was important. I knew it would show Trayvon had been spotted outside. But I didn’t know who by.
Leelee further up is the one made the connection, I just checked it and found the images. Definitely him.
Yeah what GUY does the week’s shopping without his wife? (he told Serino or Singleton they always do the weeks’ shopping Sunday nights). And then leave her home alone with a male visitor instead ? well ok old friend best buddy, known him 5 or 6 years, but still… more sensible to say here’s the money sweetheart, go on your own while I catch up with my mate, eh?
“Just tell her I shot somebody”….. no details needed, she knew where he’d gone and why, just to set her mind at ease about hearing the sirens coming in.
Buddy Mark lied about her calling him. Well maybe he said “call” hoping it would be understood as “rang on phone” but maybe she just “called” from next room. Take them 23 seconds to get to where the police cars were. Take them 95 seconds to get his car home and come back again, to visit the scene and for friend to “talk brieifly” with the police.
WAS IT HIM inside the crime scene they had to ask to leave???? former deputy, maybe they knew him, too………..
Doubt they’ll find anything off him on the debris. The police were already there before he arrived. The gun was already in custody (with or without a bag, on front seat of police car GZ was sitting in back of, according to an EMT evidence).
Not him in white t-shirt either. Seems to prefer black (on the videos I copied) or red (Facebook) and not there soon enough to be anyone seen by witnesses.
HE was just the TIP OFF.
He turns into Orlando Ave about 6.41 – 6.43. Trayvon leaves 7-11 at 6. 32 or 6.33 (let’s thanks our “friends” at Tree/Nuthouse for showing he was there a few minutes after actually walking out the door) and gets to the corner of Orlando comfortably around 6.40 – 6.44.
Ambling slowly in light rain, hoodie on, strange… might be a goon (not coon, “goon” as in local gang name)…. headed where? only to friend GZ’s estate. In fact it starts to rain heavy and he’s heading towards the shortcut.
Is he going to show up at GZ’s door and forget to mention this???
So by 6.48 – 6.50 GZ goes out to look for him. Perhaps he drives outside, perhaps just hangs around the short-cut. I rather like that youtube, someone mentioned it just this past 2 days, where TM takes shelter under awnings in the next sub-division along, before moving onto the shortcut near Taaffe’s place.
Tchoupi’s middle map
along RVC past the intersection, u-turn, back again, all slowly….. looking to see where someone went. ( his marks A B C D) Catch a glimpse of movement at mailbox. Quick u-turn (E) quick right into TTL, long slow 10-second stare at mailboxes, ( G H I ) before u-turn to watch from a bit more distance.
NO WAY Trayvon doesn’t know by now he’s being followed.
The rest, well we know how that went.
GZ went out armed on a tip-off. NW is not allowed to do that. He wasn’t accidentally armed-as-usual for the dangrous-Target-store, he went out to FIND a reported suspect. Armed. Then happened to “go in the same direction at the same time” by car and on foot for at least 8 minutes before feeling his life in mortal danger. Which luckily for him he had set out fully equipped and ready for.
Depraved is not the word for it.
But I would not call it premeditated. Just prepared to do it if necessary to the extent of not trying to avoid the necessity. A truly brave and fearless act, as his “suspect” could easily have had a firearm too, if he’d been what GZ thought he was. Then a sudden flush of power when he saw it was only Iced Tea.
I don’t buy into the killing an unarmed teen was an act of bravery under any circumstance. Zimmerman is no hero. To pretend its heroic is to say what Zimmerman did *is* premeditated as in he is at war with the enemy (in this case, a non-combat citizen Zimmerman wrongly became suspicious of). There has been no congressional declaration of war against black teens and there was no crime in progress.
It is not heroic to gun down citizens as though we’re living in Syria. I agree that depraved is to mild of a word for the depravity that Zimmerman exhibited when he chose to gun down the unarmed child.
It’s one thing to be afraid of an armageddon prompting one to hide food and living supplies in buried bunkers. It’s quite another to go out looking for people to kill because of a fear that black teens are guilty of future crimes with a mindset that you’re saving the world from the armageddon of teenagers.
The bank is the other direction from the 7-11, so had Osterman been driving down Oregon, he would likely not have seen Trayvon enter The Retreat via the shortcut. But, if he had been going to visit GZ, HE might have been driving right by Frank Taaffe’s unit when Trayvon emerged from behind the building. If so, and Osterman cued GZ, then huge parts of GZ’s story are fabricated to hide Osterman’s involvement. I received a PM from a YouTube user who said the security vid of the pool shows TM walking along it’s South side, so he may not have walked down RVC at all, but rather along the path behind the homes and clubhouse, which O may have slowed enough to observe, thus directed GZ to position himself at the point of emergence over on TTL…..
So much new speculation… This has turned into a detective show mystery plot.
So, Zimmerman has more to tell. But, his phone records will do that.
Hi there Whonoze, have been thinking about you a lot lately, lol ! I really think that GZ was driving while on the phone with dispatch so I have been using your “click-clack” conspiracy video and Tchoupi’s clubhouse findings to match up GZ’s path….so thanks…also hoping that tchoupi will help me with some tweaking 🙂
That sounds interesting Aussie. Bravo!!!
We should follow that trail more closely.
Worth holding the pop corn for?
In the daily mail article, there is a good picture of Osterman – the 2nd picture, where he is behind GZ with hair.
His nose flair is very distinctive. Compare that pic against the axiom amnesia screengrab, and the nose flair matches. Also the amount of 2nd chin matches.
” Also the amount of 2nd chin matches.”
LMAO, thank you for starting my morning off with a good laugh! Much appreciated. 🙂
haha he has more Chins than China…haha joking
Jo, all I gotta say…
lol cute kid!!
He knows what’s up!
for sure, i have been scolded by a 4 year old!!!
And… He was fired from his former deputy job because he was conned by a fraudster (not Zimmerman this time) into providing “body guard” services for a big fee. Notice any similarities? Guess Osterman didn’t learn from his previous mistakes.
Thought the same thing. Almost copied/pasted the last paragraph from the Sentinel’s report.
He was fired for helping the con artist. Do we really know if he was conned himself or was he a conspirator? He was fired for breaking policy, and essentially lying to his employer – aka lying to investigators like GZ has demonstratively done.
Hm, very interesting point. We don’t know whether he was really conned or not, or if that was merely his defense when it all came to light.
This is the problem I’m having: As many have said this does not seem to fit the profile of a premeditated killing. I will grant you all that, and yet, there are strange anomalies that seem to be excusable, only if this scenario has been discussed before hand by GZ with people who had some knowledge of what might be involved.
There’s a very strong thread of trying to bring things into compliance with NW rules as much as possible, and to otherwise confuse issues that can’t be brought into line. Just look at the “You can’t say that’s” which pepper the narratives, where saying “that” would push the whole thing over the line into criminality. These “can’t says” are just to subtle to figure out on a moments notice. Yet the answers to them are clearly lies.
Then the Osterman resource appears with a definite skill set that compliments the nights activities. Which, by the way, feeds back into the idea that the GZ wounds might be a bit older than they should be. The Osterman resource also enhances the idea that TM could have been a bit more than just a target of opportunity.
I mean, even with Osterman out at the bank, on the road, he’d have had to follow TM, to know where he was going, right? He couldn’t be guessing about it, since TM could very well have been living in that community to the west where he duck into. If Osterman figures in this, then he also had to see TM leave, the community, but wait! Merely seeing someone leave a house, doesn’t automatically mean they’re going to return there, right? TM, if not known, could have simply been visiting and, if so, it would be an assumption that he’d go to his home after the store. So, to secure him as a target, a wee bit more had to be known about him, than any chance encounter could provide. The “unknown to the community” Osterman resource fill the gap nicely.
Then the question is begged: Why would Osterman want to involve himself in the matter of a total stranger being shot, even if by a close friend, if he had nothing to do with it? Without a good, iron clad alibi for my time that night, I sure wouldn’t want to offer to house the shooter myself. Doesn’t Osterman know or remember that he used an ATM in the area? He certainly would be able to discount it, if he had something planned. His skill set is just a tad too high, for him to be so close and yet not involved.
But hey, that’s perhaps just more of my paranoid rambling eh? We shall have to wait and see what else develops.
@Lonnie, I thoroughly enjoy reading your “paranoid rambling!” 🙂
Osterman’s level of involvement confused me greatly, too. Do we know where he resides? He happened to be in the area that night, which is interesting, but then for whatever reason GZ and/or SZ felt compelled to call him immediately after the shooting, but why? Why does GZ feel compelled in his interview to offer up that his wife was able to move the car because she was with his friend Mark? Does he say this to cover up for a vehicle being there or not being there, or another person being there, or what? I don’t see why anyone was compelled to immediately call this Mark person or why it needs to be know that his presence there allowed Shelley to move the vehicle. If Shelley wanted to move the vehicle just to get it off the street, she wouldn’t need another person there to do this since the vehicle was in the neighborhood where she could just WALK to get it.
I’m just confused.
Yes, this is the kind of thing that makes be think “entanglement”. “Helping her move the car”, could also be a cover for him to exit the area in case he’s spotted. We definitely need to know where he lives, since that will tell us how much trouble it was for him to “be in the area” when “needed”.
I hate to say it, but it’s beginning to sound to me like something out of a murder mystery novel, where there is much still unseen, that bears on the nights events, perhaps even dating back to TM’s last visit.
I noted in the other videos that most of the kids filmed using the cut through were white. TM would probably be the only black kid in the nabe who isn’t too well known. So, you wouldn’t have the community coming out to his defense.
So that would be something to start with if one was planning to pick a target.
The benefit of picking a “sometimes” visitor is, you won’t have a lot of people saying he wasn’t suspicious at all. GZ seems to be able to say with some confidence that TM is suspicious and acting strangely, as if on drugs, perhaps because he knows that he won’t be easily refuted? Or, just imagine him trying to get away with saying that about one of the communities better known black children. Can’t think of a better way to set off a wave of outrage.
This “pick” went wrong but, look how much more time it took, 46 days.
Had a better known child been picked, I dare say that there would have been less inclination for SPD support of GZ. I’d certainly expect a small town police force to make missteps in their investigation of a homicide, but the fact is, the lead investigators had their suspicions as well they should have. But they were thwarted by higher ups, which should not be the case. The lead investigators should have been free to develop their case, not cut off at the knees by prosecutors or brass.
I find the “Osterman resource” to be quite impressive to small town anything. So, perhaps the OR was mentoring GZ’s career?
Good thing the FBI is in on this, they have the resources needed to investigate this Osterman resource more fully.
This commentary system is confusing. I just came across this now. Osterman lives at Lake Mary which is 1 or 2 subdivisions south of Retreat at Twin Lakes. There is an M&I bank there. But this Target is the closest to him, if he wants to go shopping there.
More likely he was on a planned visit to the Z’s.
It is even not impossible they were having money problems and that was related to his visit to the ATM.
If the person in the M&I video is Osterman, you’ll notice a “stuffed” look as he reaches for the ATM. You’ll also notice him belch (or at least deep exhale). I wonder what the Zimmermans were serving for dinner that night?
That was some funny video. The elderly couple was also a hoot. Grandma’s getting the cash and grandpa’s picking his nose.
Even the Weather Contradicts George Zimmerman.
Same location (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII). Last chart…
I want Zimmerman to have just told one truth by the time this is all over. Just one.
I stand corrected. Zimmerman said he shot Trayvon Martin and that ended up being true (I think).
On another note, I’m liking the new moderation system! Thanks for changing the setting. 🙂
Lovin’ it! NLME!!
Hmmm.. I meant to say Thank You NLME!!
He told 2 truths I know of
“I shot this person”
“I was driving….”
haha aussie don’t jump to conclusions yet…it might have been Deputy Dawg (osterman) driving, lol, where was his/zimmermans/shellies car again?? jeez i can’t keep up
LOL! I thought I already mentioned that he’s truthful in answering to the name “George Zimmerman”. That’s all we’re gonna get in the truth department from this guy. I’m not even sure at this point if that’s the truth! 🙂
The otherwise fairly useless bank videos are excellent for weather. They are just around the corner, show open spaces, and cover from around noon to 8 pm. I’ll watch one of them and note the times of the showers. And what time it gets really dark.
I just had to put a link to your work on my blog. Nice work on the weather graph.
I said months ago GZ was never on his way to Target…(who goes to Target with a loaded gun?) but finding out about the bank survelience, it gives me the chills. To think that someone “tipped” him.. Geez.. If that’s not premeditated I don’t know what it is. I just figured GZ saw Trayvon some other way but now I know GZ had an accomplice, a partner in crime. He actually thought he was an officer didn’t he? This man (and his crew) are way more twisted than I ever imagined. MOM has some nerve petitioning to have Lester thrown off the case.. I wish I could be there in the court when he rules on that lol! I won’t underestimate MOM for a second.. He’s smart and deliberate. He knows his motion will be denied.. So what’s the reason behind it?
We speculated at one time he was tipped off by Taaffe, who lives with a good view of the shortcut.
But the timing of this friend’s visit is spot on and documented by the video. Not his “crew”, a visitor from a few subdivisions away, but a close friend, the guy who taught him to shoot. A former County Deputy who resigned after being involved in a scandal, working on the side as bodyguard for a supposed sporting celebrity who turned out to be a con man.
MOM is playing for public sympathy because it brings in the $$$$$$$$$.
Seems this fellow has been quite successful keeping himself out of MSM. Guess he wasn’t as charming as Frank T. or Joe Oliver (not!) lol! At times I go back and watch Joe Oliver’s tv interviews just for kicks.. for some strange reason I almost always expect him to say “my friend George is a gentle soul.. He loves blacks.. I danced at his wedding.. And sat next to his black great grandfather..”
Birds of a feather do flock together, don’t they? If his friends are the only character witnesses he can provide.. He is in big trouble.
Don’t leave Taaffe out of this quite yet! Trayvon passed right by his windows. Maybe Z acted when both Osterman and Taaffe told him to.
Agreed and Taaffe seems particularly peeved about black kids using the cut-through.
Osterman is definitely a new twist. Frank Taaffe (although name blacked out) says in his statement to police that he did not know GZ on a personal level, but now is his new best friend. Creepy creepy people all over the place in “The Retreat”! And GZ had a new gun, does the insanity ever end?
i don’t remember seeing any mention of this Osterman until reading his statement. Did anyone else make mention of him? He was at the scene, at the police station, at the re-enactment and at the 3rd interview but so far i don’t remember any mention of him until this statement. He is Zims only close friend, funny that. So he maybe spotted Tray and told Zim that he saw him cutting through or something, Zim jumps in his car and goes searching. Another gripe, the FBI appear to have just asked random people walking down the street if they know him…well that might be a slight exaggeration but half of the people never actually met him and others only knew him through work….i don’t know about you guys but if you are racist or violent your work mates would be the last to know, it’s not something you broadcast. i wonder if there are more statements yet to be released, less favourable to George. So far all we know is that he wasn’t violent or racist at work, and that he didn’t lose his temper with anyone that had a casual acquaintance with him….that doesn’t really tell us much.
I agree with what you’re saying. In addition, racism is complex and comprised of many components; it can be extremely subtle and hard to detect. I don’t think the findings reported tell us much at all.
Listen to the jail calls again. GZ and GZ talk about a security team, or whatever code words they use – this is Osterman, I’m guessing.
(By the way, I’m renting the late-period Sam Peckinpah film tonight, THE OSTERMAN WEEKEND in honor of everyone here who is following this odd development. lol)
I’ve often wondered why GZ parked so far from the corner at the cut thru – was there one car ahead of him? Some who have tried to analyze clubhouse videos claim to see two cars moving in concert with one another – I have to go back and read that stuff again now – anyone else see that? GZ in the recreation video amends his parking directions as the car nears the corner. At first he seems to mean right behind the ford truck that’s always on the corner, mentioning a sign (doggie waste reminder sign, short and at the start of the cut thru path) as his first direction and then he amends it to the spot where there is a break in the townhomes. Was there a car ahead of him already???
This is a puzzle piece that needs to be taken around to every spot there is to see if it might fit.
Osterman was involved in a scandal that drove him out of his sheriff’s deputy job. He’s no stranger to controversy, or to acting as private security and screwing it all up. If he’s on the same intellect level as GZ he’s likely made numerous mistakes. Did he admit he went to the ATM? How would Corey’s investigative team get to where they knew to look at these bank videos? Where are his full statements and the recordings thereof, and who in the media will be the first to file a sunshine law request for all the materials?
Move fast, use screencapture on anything he controls – his social media will be scrubbed ASAP. Myspace, anyone?
Zimmerman’s phone records will connect the dots. My guess is he left the bank, sees TM going towards the shortcut, calls GZ, and the rest is history
GZ’s phone records are yet another thing I thought we were going to see this week. The prosecution has every right to shield their strategy at trial and so seems to be slow-walking the discovery process. I can’t blame them. But at times it’s frustrating working with an incomplete puzzle.
His text messages will be evidence/ discovery too I think.
Note how terrible the map GZ drew on is reproduced, and the photo of GZ in theback of the cop car, and the total station map – a lay person couldn’t make head or tails of them, and I should know, being one, lol.
The 2nd evidence dump was only supposed to include the search warrant for Zimmerman’s phone records. I’ve learned (via twitter) that they will be introduced at the trial and no sooner. Not sure if that’s true.
No need to ring. Going there for a visit anyway, he’s only 1 or 2 minutes away driving. Most likely was not deliberately “spotting”. Just ” hello, how are you, hey do you have much trouble with them goon gangs around here? ‘cos I think I just saw one heading this way…” as a fairly casual observation. GZ’s ears perk up, gets details, yeah ok stay here guys I’ll be back shortly…….
I don’t think the Osterman Resource was at the bank to draw or deposit money. Going to the bank to do anything is not a pleasant exercise, is why some banks are switching to make cell phone banking possible.
Besides, what would he need money for on a rainy night like that? Especially since most debit cards are as good as cash at most stores. No! The Osterman resource is at the bank for one purpose only, to track TM across the street at 711.
He can’t go into the 711 lot, because, as the 711 video shows, there’s just too few people there, he’s likely to be spotted. He certainly doesn’t want to appear on the 711 videos, since he knows they’ll be “pulled”, assuming he knows something is going to happen later, that requires them to be pulled.
The bank videos, however, aren’t likely to be pulled, and if pulled, they’re not likely to be viewed for anything, since they’re connected to nothing. So, there’s little to no reason for the Osterman resource to think he’ll be discovered in the bank video.
Now you’ll see why I’m calling him “the Osterman Resource”! What earthly reason does he have, to go over to RATL and not make immediate contact with GZ at his home? Aha?!? GZ is not at home, eh? GZ is out on the road, and SZ makes no mention of the Osterman Resource coming to the house to find out where GZ is… So, GZ and the OR must have been talking by phone! The phone logs of the OR will probably help us fill in the gaps of time we have. that was thought to be idle time. Or, maybe the Osterman Resource was using a throwaway phone or texting? Or, how about a cb?
That certainly would explain why GZ’s truck had to be gotten out of the area so fast, eh?
In any event, at least in my wild dreamwork mind, the Osterman Resource is beginning to look like the key!
Don’t forget, “The Osterman Weekend” was an early Robert Ludlum book first.
(and actually better than the movie)
re the money – if ,say you are dropping in to see a friend at the time he normally goes shopping, … and say the friend is having difficulties…then you would take out cash to slip to him to help him out, right? not give him your debit card and PIN.
He shows up on the actual ATM video, the one that shows people using it. HE was using it.
re the 7-11 they are not opposite each other.
I believe he was in the area for a private and innocent purpose (like my first paragraph). Casually mentions seeing a Goon-looking someone heading this way. There is no huge conspiracy going on. They’re just like-minded enough to consider that kind of thing worth mentioning.
He and SZ decided to wait, he’ll be back in 20 mins. Instead of a triumphant return they get a phone call. Let’s go see. It has to be on the estate’s 3 streets, they already hear the sirens approach. The MAIN reason for “tell my wife I shot somebody” is to tell her “it’s OKAY it was NOT ME GOT SHOT”.
They get to the scene. Oh, he’s being taken to the police station, well maybe we’d better take his car home then, we can go pick him up at the cops’ later.
And of COURSE they go spend the rest of the night with him. It’s been a shock, a hard night, a lot to talk about. He needs help, companionship, moral support through the ordeals of all the interviews in the coming days. (Not to mention coaching etc).
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. KISS.
What’s the likelihood that GZ is protecting MO?
If MO really came over to GZ’s house with a tip, odds are they went out to play cop together. What if they were both in the car, and MO goes south down TTL while GZ goes towards the cut through?
Keep in mind GZ AND MO are both bald white guys. So it is possible that TM doesn’t perceive them as two different people. to tell DD about.
Maybe TM tries to go home, sees MO coming from the south, and that causes him to go north towards the T?
It seems like some details have been removed from peoples stories, notably, “the gun is on the ground” and “what did you use, a 9mm or .40?”. These statements would make sense in context of conversation between GZ and MO. MO is wearing black. It’s dark, people are around with flashlights. No one really knows who was who and who was where. It’s possible. From a character perspective, it is more likely.
Yes, Ostermans choice of black means he can wander the estate at night and not be seen like a ghost. Everyone else seems to be wearing lighter colors, eh? I guess he fancies him self as a Langley Spook?
Aussie, I second the motion that simple answers are best looked at first. However, I’m still not convinced that OS is in the video and that he’s the spotter. If he was, I’d think he’d have gone on the ride with GZ and there’s no evidence that says he was in the truck with him (i.e. Deedee said there’s a crazy guy following him, not two crazy guys). The most telling is in the re-enactment video, he starts to say “My wife…” then pauses and then says “I was going to the grocery store.” She has the history of spotting characters as well (i.e., AA people running by her house). So she was going to the grocery store (or back from it) and goes home to tell him about it so maybe he could just call 911. She probably protested when he said I’ll go and check it out first. I think on the police videos when he was with the female cop that he says “my wife was so mad”. You’d think that a wife who believed his story and that he had no fault in it would be “so worried” or “so scared” or “so relieved he’s alive”. But no she was initially “so mad” because he went out there when so told him not to.
Also, they were not in that much debt and GZ is too egotistical to have taken money from his buddy (sure, they’d take money from his mother, not close friends he looks up to). But is that relevent?
Regarding the question of how MO could have gotten in when the gates were blocked if he wasn’t there already. Same as Austin’s mom who came home and parked across the street and walked in. With his marshall’s badge, he wouldn’t have had trouble if they were checking IDs.
I noted that I goofed earlier on about the bank.
But now that you’ve posted the graphic, I would ask that someone take a look at the street view of Rinehart drive, since it looks like someone at the bank would be able to view through to 7-11’s section of the road, and TM would have to spend several minutes on Rinehart walking back home.
Then there’s NLME’s mention that Osterman would get to GZ’s about 5 minutes after TM entered the grounds?
Oh wait, I see, you’re saying he wasn’t on a trip to the store, but out to look for the intruder? I guess Osterman should confirm this? Or did he just give GZ money to go shopping by himself? Didn’t they say he usually goes with Shellie? Why didn’t they all go with him? There certainly would be no danger in simply spotting an intruder on the grounds, if you didn’t plan to confront them, eh?
But, like I said, I didn’t do the math, so these are just questions I’ll be watching for answers to. Many here are so far ahead with maps and time data, and they have websites to feed as well, reason enough to think the answers will come.
I agree no need to work up conspiracies where none exist. But, as you well know, conspiracies are easily covered up if no one looks too closely at the details. It is because the acts of conspirators have simple and easy, alternative explanations to hide behind, that make them difficult to detect.
So, now we have an idea of who may have tipped off GZ. But we still don’t know how much more this Osterman may have also been capable of. He’s “available” in time to have quite some connection to the matter. For example, he could have been on the grounds, on foot and marauding in the area, doing things before TM was shot, and even helping with evidence redistribution afterwards. Remember this man has quite some field skills, that would be very useful in arranging a crime scene. If only by instructing what evidence needs to be compromised for sure.
Dressed in all black, on a night when eyewitnesses can’t seem to see things nearby, he could practically roam the area freely without being seen.
Could it be his presence that drove TM away from his house? I don’t know, but GZ seems to be gaining more resources as time goes on, eh?
hi lonnie, i must say im pretty shocked about this guy. Who knew Zim had a buddy on scene (not Taffe), someone very experienced with law enforcement who claims he didnt coach but as Serino said Zim sounded scripted. Why? Why was he there, why was he the first person Shellie contacted, why was he allowed in interviews etc, why does no statement mention him being there? It has certainly added a new twist.
I think he was already there. The entrances were blocked off, and it doesn’t seem he is mentioned in any of the reports. Kind of weird, honestly. It will be interesting to see what GZ’s phone records show. If he was indeed there before the shooting, I don’t see why GZ would leave with him still at the house. I’d think if GZ was going somewhere, whether to the store or to go look for TM, that the buddy would go with, too.
If MO was going there to visit, he just said I think I saw one of them goons heading this way.
Nah, no need for you to get involved, buddy. Keep my wife company for a while, I can handle this, be back soon……….
“Just tell her I just shot somebody”… ‘cos she knows where he went and why. MAYBE some prearranged hypothetical earlier talk about good idea to move the vehicle, so she moves it. MO meanwhile hanging around the scene, being the deputy the cops maybe know.
There’s more to this though, somewhere. Because why would they get the bank videos except to prove or disprove someone having been in the area at the time? not just on an off-chance. They must have been looking for something specific.
Yet there’s nothing so far in anything that’s been released that would make the timing of MO’s arrival important enough to get video confirmation about. So there must be some other statement from MO to say he went to the bank, which has not been recorded and/or handed over.
I am late to the discussion but reviewing all your thoughtful comments. I felt that from what I have read Trayvon had been staying at his Dad’s girlfriends house for the better part of a week, correct me if I am wrong. I believe GZ snoop and spy coupled with his disdain for young black men knew this in fact probably tracked all of TM’s movements. I don’t find it a big surprise to have him fully aware of when TM left. And yes it will all be in GZ’s phone records. We will not know till trial if we ever get there since with all of Z’s donations and support drying up he is a ticking time bomb. I doubt suicide is his future but I would not be surprised at some point we find his demise is by “suicide by cop”!
There are now some experts who believe TM lived for a short time after being shot.
I doubt that very much for any reasonable definition of “living”. GZ was using hollow point Parabellums, and when you get one of those chewing up your lungs and heart, you are toast.
While I agree Osterman is potentially involved from before the shot was fired, we lack evidence to say so. I also think there is no evidence TM was ever “by his house” except in the sense that he was a lot closer to home than he was to the 7Eleven and that’s what he was telling DeeDee when she recalls TM saying he was close to home, or wherever he actually said.
The timing of the call back from Dee Dee is right around the time TM may have been being followed down TTL from the clubhouse to the cut thru. I think TM ran off the roadway and between the houses and the ONLY evidence that we have that he went ANYWHERE after that is the scattered objects between the tan bag and his cell phone. Based on that evidence and what I know about teenage boys on calls to girls, he stopped running once he was safely off the roadway where the problem was, and stood around in the dark talking to her until GZ’s keychain flashlight shone on him, roughly in John;s back yard the whole time.
Yes, he had time to go elsewhere (GZ had time to go many places as well) but what evidence it there of it? None. Speculation that Brandy Green’s comment about him being on the porch is ridiculous and has been spread too widely. She was not home then, and her remark is a common one for grieving folks, and meant “one moment they’re here, and then they are dead.” Please be careful not to spread misinformation and speculationthat is un-sourced.
Getting back to Osterman however, the sealing of the gates is interesting to note, if only we knew more about how well it was done and at what time – anyone care to say what is known about this, and give a url?. A cop was directed to run the plates of two cars parked near the ends of the cut thru, and both came back as belonging to residents – but one could have been the honda ridgeline, right? People have wondered if patrol cars had video rolling as they approached the scene. Unknown at present…
Knowing what evidence to move or obscure is POSSIBLE but unlikely – how would Osterman know what is the right thing to hide or move, unless he spoke to GZ?
“Please be careful not to spread misinformation and speculationthat is un-sourced.”
I am certainly not in the business of spreading misinformation. I do not claim as fact that Osterman was there before; I only state that I believe he may have been in the neighborhood prior to the incident, which I base on the statement of GZ and the fact that the PD reports that his car could not be secured at the scene because it had been moved already. It seems that would have to occur early on; GZ having Jon call SZ took place right after T. Smith arrives. I base my speculation generally on information that is already known otherwise I state “wild speculation, and I’m probably nuts for considering,” lol.
Please realize I am only stating I believe he was in the community before, but I don’t speculate as to his involvement considering there is nothing factual to even go off of at this point. I just note that it is an oddity that I hope further information is produced.
no worries, it’s just a reminder to keep things on the up and up so it doesnt spiral out of hand. Lots of new info flying around, let’s keep it clean. It’s reaching a point where there almost needs to be a division of labor to aspects of the case… I just want to caution everyone in a friendly way to source things and state opinion where it is such and facts where they are cited. best of wishes to all.
I’m 100% with you. We must put our references every time a statement is made.
Here is the article I know that refers to the gates of the complex being blocked by SPD: http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece
That article is quite long but interesting. So, deep into it, you’ll find that paragraph: “Cheryl Brown was at a Walmart that night when her daughter called, crying. She hurried home to find police blocking the gates to her subdivision. She parked her car across the street and ran to her kids.”
Sierra & Austin called 911 at 7:19pm. So, They probably called their mom around 7:20pm. The walmart is about 4min drive from the north gate. Considering the time to get to the car and exit the parking, she probably was at the gates at around 7:30-7:35. So, if the Tampabay article is correct, the neighborhood was already locked at ~7:30, and SPD wouldn’t even let resident drive in. SPD would let them walk in, though.
From the bank video, MO was in a position to drive in as early as 6.41 pm. In time to alert GZ in person, face to face, to someone suspicious heading that way.
If he was home in Lake Mary when SZ calls him (around 7.20) he’d not get there before the lock-down (unless of course, being an ex-deputy and possible familiar face, maybe being allowed in anyhow??). I’ve been at roadblocks where selected residents were allowed through, and there was no recording of who was allowed in or why.
They might not have let a civilian through but an ex-sheriff’s deputy and “air marshall” might be allowed in.
A little harsh but I still maintain Trayvon was not near the T. There is NO physical evidence to suggest that he was. Zimmerman’s story and Zimmerman’s keys are not enough evidence to me to suggestion Trayvon was anywhere near the T when the confrontation started.
So if we are only going on evidence and not “rumors”, I would like to know the evidence other than Zimmerman’s words and Zimmerman’s keys that put Trayvon at the T.
I agree. Witnesses heard “voices” but no one saw two people up by the T. GZ seems to have been somewhere that be could drop his keychain flashlight for a reason – and somehow the two persons seem to have closed a gap between them. TMs tan bag is 30 feet south of the T and thats as close as he could be placed. Beyond that many things are possible.
It is also possible to toss keys and a flashlight several yards without being seen. So that’s another possibility, GZ did go towards the T after the shooting.
The tan bag, presumably empty, could just as easily have been blown north by the wind. So I wouldn’t place much faith in it as a marker. Obviously, for the bag to wind up this far from the store, TM had to have carried something in it. He would not have simply carried an empty bag along if he’d removed it’s contents. In fact, when he ran, he might have lost his grip on the bag, or it’s contents spilled on the ground, forcing him to come back north to get it.
I sure do wish Mr. iPhone camera guy had gotten a shot of the bag’s location before anybody else got there.
If they pulled the bag containing the can out of the hoodie pocket and then pulled the can out of the bag to see if it was a pipe bomb or could offer a clue, that’s one thing, but if the can and the bag were separated before or during the struggle, that’s a heck of a puzzle/loose end.
Apparently the can was still cold and unopened, so what’s it doing out of the bag?
I agree. And to add to that, by the time the ear witnesses heard anything near the T, it had already escalated and had become loud.
If a neighborhood had a lot of sexual offenses committed in the area with the suspects all being old, white males then one day/night someone called in a non-emergency call about someone who was an old, white male, and the person was followed and shot with the person claiming SD… I don’t think there would be anyone saying it was reasonable to assume this person was a sex offender who needed to be followed and shot. Feel free to delete since this is kind of off topic.
I def don’t delete comments (unless the user wants me to). And, that was a good point/my main argument.
Investigators say Zimmerman likely isn’t racist but there’s no denying he racially profiled on that night (and before).
Just putting out the disclaimer that I would not be offended since I know some of my comments aren’t exactly on topic…The Creep and That’s Racist Kid, lol.
He was criminally profiling using racial elements. I don’t fault him for being suspicious and calling it in, it is his other actions.
“I don’t fault him for being suspicious and calling it in, it is his other actions.”
If Trayvon was as suspicious as any other person wearing a hoodie and walking home in the rain, I agree. But, I don’t think Zimmerman would have called if not for Trayvon’s skin color.
I agree. He focused on black males. I’m just saying despite how much I don’t understand him calling at all and think it’s stupid he did, that’s not where my main issue lies in the events of that night. I can get past that part of it, I suppose.
Serino said he wasn’t racist. Barnes said this wasn’t racial profiling but Serino accuses Barnes of pressuring him due to race so go figure. So Serino can accuse the black officers and the white lady married to a black man of being racially biased BUT give Zimmerman a pass…yeah okay…believe him!
At any rate, no other investigator said he was not racist. The FBI interviewed friends, acquaintances and co-workers who I would believe have never, ever seen a racist unless they were burning a cross.
I don’t think you get the benefit of the doubt when a black unarmed child is dead, especially after W9 and especially after the co-worker who was harassed due to his ethnicity. Further, the “ex-ho” clearly does not know what racism is if she suggests the mother wanted him to lighten the family gene pool but claims he isn’t racist.
Now let’s connect some dots. The gang investigator suggests there are three AA gangs, one group who wears dark hoodies. Seriono suggests that the dark hoodie ALONE is the tip-off for Zimmerman of suspicion. Now we know the gang that wears the dark hoodie is exclusively AA. We know Zimmerman’s last three of four calls to 911 was because of a suspicious black person. We know that SZ accused a black teenager of stealing her bike, the cops were called and the AA family was forced to show and prove. And it turns out it wasn’t the bike. Some “genius” concludes that if GZ was a “real racist” he would have pressed charges, as if he had a choice.
There is more than one source who discusses the dissatisfaction with the retreat when it became more diverse due to the downturn in the real estate market in Florida…it used to be 90% white, Section 8 (which I highly doubt!), no criminal background checks by absentee landlords (said by a guy with a record), all types of kids cutting through but black kids being particularly troublesome in the cut-through for some odd reason. You are being dog-whistled to here. All code words for a heightened sense around young black males in the community. They are overtly, IMO, pointing this all out for any who cares to see and most importantly GZ is responding to this heightened threat by his words, deeds and actions.
But nope, his friends, acquaintances and co-workers says he’s not racist when we have more than one occasion of him saying disparaging things about Mexicans and Arabs! And he is calling the cops on suspicious black men for no apparent reason. And you are counting on Law Enforcement who has their share of problems around race to discern who is and is not racist. I’m going to pass on that. As someone who has studied racism because I’ve had to and have been exposed to all manners of it, GZ is a racist and he RACIALLY profiled Trayvon that night. And that is what our society has come to, it is all subtext rarely anything overt and that gives the guise of culpable deniability. Mark Zuckerberg would have been fine in that neighborhood that night with a dark hoodie. Trayvon never had a chance and if a white dude can walk freely because of his attire and a black child can’t, then it isn’t about the hoodie no matter what people will have you believe but about race.
And for those who think it does not matter, imagine having to raise a black male child and try tp teach them the pitfalls of not ending up like Trayvon. It may not matter to some because they will never be racially profiled but it matters to me as I constantly revise that handbook to teach my child how to survive in America when you are young black and male.
I agree fully that Trayvon was racially profiled, not just profiled that night. It would not matter to the prosecution’s case, whether he is profiled or racially profiled, but it certainly matters for society, and especially for young black men (and the people who love them).
The media has been hyping the “not a racist” spin from day one. In the latest, they are hyping FBI reports claiming nothing racial, putting the heaviest weight on Serino’s statement. First of all, Serino has a vested interest in protecting the SPD’s actions in not charging. Anyway, as you say, who gives a flying fig what these people’s OPINION is about George’s racial motivations? We have W9 who, in my opinion, is highly credible. She calls in after having heard the news & before there was any controversy surrounding the case. She has personal knowledge of him & his family, she is scared to go public, but she invites investigators to look closely at that aspect of GZ’s life–hoping other people won’t be “too afraid” (of him) to talk. And, she indicates that, as a mother, she is concerned that Trayvon and family get a fair shake at the truth of what might have happened that night. That sounds pretty solid to me.
Lots of other interviewed people witness racially suspect behavior, but don’t consider it that — as you say, plenty of subtext but it all points to his attitudes: the ethnic jokes at the co-worker’s expense, witnessed by many; the blaming the black family for missing bike (he’s not a racist because when it was found to not be his bike he didn’t press charges anyway? Oh really?). We’ve got the MySpace comments, and we’ve got everyone he has a relationship with –Taaffe and his entire family — using overtly racial remarks to “prove” how George DOESN’T profile. And, they appear to be completely oblivious to what they are actually saying. These are the people George consorts with. Osterman appears to have been smart enough to keep his mouth shut on the matter, but everyone else confirms it. We also have the neighbor who said he wouldn’t jog the complex at night to avoid probs with NW (him “matching the description” being sent around in emails about who to watch for). There are former tenants who suggest similar things and black kids in the area who have suggested he treated them with disrespect. These same people who were racially/ethnically targeted by GZ, seem to want to give him the benefit of the doubt & say it’s not really racial when it clearly is. The ex’s comments also back up that the family looked highly upon marrying white, but lowly on consorting closely with non-whites.
So, the question is, did the FBI limit their questioning to support the “he’s not a racist” spin or are they (& prosecutors) specifically holding their cards close to their chest for as long as possible? I’d like to think the latter, but I really don’t know.
“The ex’s comments also back up that the family looked highly upon marrying white, but lowly on consorting closely with non-whites.”
Good point. Note that Zimmerman’s mother didn’t even want Zimmerman to marry a Hispanic per the ex-fiance.
I am revisiting this comment because I find these points very important to dissect the coverup side of this case.
Goon gangs or not, I don’t recall reading anything that indicated the other black people called in by Zimmerman as suspicious were wearing hoodies. I do, however, recall that the other people called in by Zimmerman were all black males.
Has anyone done independent research on what apparel this so-called gang of goons wears or how this gang is otherwise identified?
Just like Giraldo’s made up bull about hoodies being the source of Zimmerman’s suspicion, I’d like to know if the goon gang story-line given to Serino is also a made up piece of fiction.
I remember an article with a gang unit officer. He reference some names of gangs with the name goon in it. Just because these so called gangs are named, doesn’t mean that GZ knew about them. He never mentions in any of his calls that he suspected any person he was watching or reporting that he thought they were part of a gang. I think it was a way for people to try to explain his comment these fucking coons to goons. Even his friend MO said he wasn’t street smart. Any street smart person would know what gangs where in their neighborhood or and know their gang colors.
What you’ll find out about gang is truly terrible, here google “Sanford Florida Gangs Goons” (without the quotes) and have a look see.
GZ would know in one hot second that he wasn’t meeting up with one of these goons, and that’s for dead sure! Secondly, if it were a goon that he was chasing, it would probably be his funeral we’d be seeing, because the goons have high powered weapons and don’t seem to be afraid to use them.
GZ was trying to make this encounter into something it wasn’t. He was on the net, so he knew about the goons gangs. If he’d followed one of them, they would not have asked him any questions, they’d either have run away or they’d have stopped and shot him. The You Tube videos shows them brandishing automatic weapons. You don’t follow such people, they could be leading you into an ambush. They are wild, so wild you’d know them the minute you encountered one of them.
Thanks for info. That was a crazy video. Agreed if GZ would of spotted someone like that in the video, he would never got out of his car.
You know, when people make aside remarks, there’s always something behind it. So, when you replied after I also received another reply (CSFC I think), it made me think: “aha, a remark with a very leading reason behind it!” What happened was it went awry because people mistook it for “coons”, as they were looking for a racial bend to the matter. (See how holding preconceived notions blinds one to the facts of the matter?)
What GZ was really intending to do, was to lead the public to view the goon gangs. Had we accessed that early on, we might very well have had a much different take, and might not have discovered so many of GZ lies. Perhaps his mention of goons was enough for the SPD or prosecutors who would definitely have known of them and how intractable they are, such that the mere mention of their involvement turns LEO off!
Well, it didn’t work as intended, instead everyone was sidetracked away from the goons story. Of course, eventually we’d have realized, perhaps belatedly, that GZ would have easily known, very quickly, that TM was not a goon. The body language would be very much different than those wayward lost kids.
Of course, if GZ wasn’t aware of what the goons looked like and how brazenly they acted, then he would not have needed his gun. But then, he also would not have mentioned them, in the hope that they would provide a distraction.
Conclusion: GZ knew about the goons and he had either seen them or view the videos of them. He knew early on that TM wasn’t one of them, because, with him in a car, they’d have brazenly taken evasive action by moving through areas where a truck could not follow. If cornered they’d shoot it out.
GZ knew that goons would be sufficient justification for being armed and even for shooting, so he makes the mention.
Of course, his approach, or even being in the area with a suspected goon, and not having already drawn his weapon, tell us he knows that the suspect he’s pursuing isn’t armed. He knows this because, even though he can sense the child is afraid of him, the child isn’t taking effective evasive actions. The way a criminal goon would.
Someone “upstairs” must have been watching this unfold because, can you imagine the firestorm that would have erupted and covered over GZ’s fabricated story, if the Goon’s had become the central story early on?
Instead the poor quality of the SPD tape ruined what would have been an otherwise very effective distraction.
Has anyone matched up the tag numbers with a name and make of car. I was thinking of checking DMV records, but before I pay for it I wanted to know if anyone has done so already.
“What you’ll find out about gang is truly terrible, here google “Sanford Florida Gangs Goons” (without the quotes) and have a look see.”
Just did. It is truly pitiful to see what’s happening with these kids. No life. No prospects.
Where are those children buying all those guns?! This is just crazy.
It’s drug money funding these things. But, as I said, and you can easily see, these kids are totally wild. If GZ knows of them, has seen them, or searched them on the net, then he would very quickly know that TM is clearly not cut from that cloth. The body language he’d see, when he was discovered following, would be quite dramatic and quite a bit fear inducing, knowing what level they could be armed to, and the possibility that there are other goons in the area with him. Because they are brazen. Made so, because even the police can’t control them, and have to go to, what I call “grade B policing”. You clearly don’t tangle with a real goon alone!
“Grade B Policing” is what I call the situation, much like they had during prohibition, where certain areas were so dangerous, that the police could not reasonably be expected to move against them. This is because of the expected losses any major actions would entail. The police could not, in such situations, afford the expected losses, since that would leave the immediate populace with less police protection. Meaning they’d only be making room for other area gangs to move in, to replace the ones they took out.
As you can see, if you give it thought, lack of police response isn’t always due to corruption, but is sometimes the only rational response. They hope that by doing regular police work, they can undermine the revenue source of the thugs, and with the shifting equations, eventually abate the threats.
Better this than to devolve to third world “grade C policing” where the police themselves become part of the criminal enterprise, either with or without the blessings of public officials, elected or otherwise in office.
Has anyone mentioned this? In the walkthrough, GZ claims the police ask, Do you still want us to come? Yes. Where do you want us to meet you? And then he says, meet me at the clubhouse you’ll see my silver Honda Ridgeline.
But on the 911 call that never happens. Operator asks, Do you want us to meet you at the clubhouse?, No, actually could you just have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Here we see first hand a recorded instance of GZ crafting the story to exclude that incriminating detail, that indicated that he was intent on pursing his so-called “suspect”, so that he wouldn’t get away from the ensuing authorities.
Did you notice he also lied on the non emergency dispatch by telling the investigators that the dispatcher told him to get out of his vehicle. He said the guy said
” well we need an address”, trying to make it seem like he only got out because the dispatcher told him too. Thank GOD it was recorded. He said all of these things that we caught due to him not knowing that the police would play the 911 for him or that it would ever come up again. I am so glad that he is a dumb criminal.
Don’t forget, even that “we need an address” would not be an address for Trayvon, but simply and address for where they could meet GZ! Obviously he didn’t need to get out of the vehicle to get that, he could simply have driven back to the clubhouse and waited there. Because that’s all this need of an address was all about, where to meet him!
Not where to find anyone else!
Even though (like jailhouse calls) the NE call number starts with an announcement that the call is recorded, I think GZ actually believed his call was never recorded or else that the cops had not bothered to listen to it. Because he says at least a dozen lies of this sort, lies that can be PROVEN to be lies in a court of law. He talked to investigators like he was trying to talk his way out of a speeding ticket… it’s kinda pathetic.
Myself and plenty of others noticed the sinister implications of the “have them call me” line when the NE call was made public. The fact that he lied to omit/obscure obfuscate to the level he did was astonishing to skeptics when the statements were finally made public. The list of lies is as long as my arm if I were to type them in this forum. Even before the bond money and passport disaster, his credibility was very very low. The trick is, the prosecution still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not attacked by TM and in mortal fear for his life when he fired his handgun into the unarmed teen’s heart. Even though he’s a liar, it’s still going to be a challenge since he killed the other witness to the altercation and knows all the buzzwords to say – like the verbal threat to his life, and the fear of imminent death, and that he was innocently walking to(wards) his truck, etc. It would be a great self defense/ SYG story if it were true.
Given the NW rules, the 14 hour course he had taken, and the fact that he had a weapon with him, he has NO justification for being anywhere except in front of the clubhouse waiting for the Police to arrive! Anything else is vigilantism and that makes these results criminal.
How is it really possible for Zimmerman to have identified TM as having run south towards the rear gate, from where he claims he was situated? He mentions the direction of TM before the car bells tinkle, so he is still in the car when he reports this detail. If he was in the car, I don’t think he has the proper angle, or the light visibility to determine that TM ran south; he would have just seen him go into the cut through. No southward movement would have been visible.
I think GZ was thinking and responding like an automobile driver when he gave directions. TTL feeds “down” like a drain south to the other entrance. If TM ran west on TTL, he’s still going “down” to the other entrance if you assume he’s going to stick to the roadway which he had thus far more or less.
But TM may have run from the ford truck/ sidewalk start to towards the T, we can’t know for certain. But I don’t think he went as far as the T before he cut south. I strongly think TM cut the corner of the unit at 1211 TTL – there is a dirt pathway worn where others cut this corner a lot, but it only shows up in certain angles of photos. Certainly the location of the body suggests he stuck to the back of the building and stayed off the sidewalk, where GZ would have looked as he moved west but didn;t see him the first time. Trayvon likely did not go all the way to the T before he turned south. TM would have already had walked thru wet grass and not cared about sticking to a sidewalk like GZ seems to have done. Facing west, talking on the phone and not having a working flashlight made GZ miss TM, even if TM was just standing in the grass behind John;s window – he would have been “behind” GZ’s line of sight already, and oddly enough the farther NORTH TM was at that time the more likely he would be a dark object against a dark background – the sunroom glass of 1211 TTL as opposes to a dark object against beige stucco.
I also think GZ muttering “effing goons/punks/whatever ” is right about the moment he lost sight of TM.
Here is the sequence:
2:11 (7:11:44 EST)
GZ : Shit he’s running.
Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
BEEPING – ZIMMERMAN EXITS VEHICLE AND STARTS TO WALK OR JOGS AFTER TRAYVON
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?
WIND NOISE STARTS – GZ MOVES FASTER
Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*cking [unintelligible] (c**n, punk, goon?)
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran.
2:41 ( 7:12:15 EST) GZ HAS LOST SIGHT – NOTE PAST TENSE – “HE RAN”
Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name?
2:46 WIND NOISE STOPS – HE RAN OR JOGGED FOR 25 SECONDS
GZ MOVES AT A DIFFERENT PACE NOW
Notice TM only ran a short sprint, but likely did so as fast as his feet could carry him, and he probably waited until the last second to do so, hoping the car behind him wouldn’t stop but instead continue around the corner on it’s own steam. Note also that TM probably didn’t have time or the inclination to look back and see GZ exit his car.
This is also why GZ insists he wasn’t “following” TM when he is played the tape. He wasn’t following with the teen in his eyesight. He was just following the path he saw the teen run. Minor distinction but GZ tries to make as much of it as he can, like a drowning man will grasp at a floating straw.
Why do I feel so sure about all this? There are clear benchmarks for what TM is doing while GZ describes his movements.
Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.
GZ has to be SOMEWHERE when he says this and so does TM. many things are possible, but the two places GZ seems to claim are NOT possible. So we must find a middle spot. Fortunately GZ did it for us when he marked the map. He just crossed it out quickly realizing he needed to back off that part of the story given what came next. I can’t over-emphasise this point because it shows how, where and why GZ lied and is caught dead-to-rights in his own lies. Yes, he is likely lying a dozen other places but this one is where his own words can and were played back to him and he can’t explain himself and a jury will see the nature and impact of his lies. In my mind it would be the cornerstone of a prosecutor’s case since the star witness is also the defendant. How can the defense refute their own guy?
It’s important to know that GZ marked a map showing IMO his REAL position as TM left the clubhouse area but that GZ quickly crossed out this mark and that’s where his “TM doubled back and circled my car/ hand in waistband” false narrative began, the one he can’t explain later when played the recorded call. When he finally is confronted with the call, he repeatedly insists he is “by the clubhouse” when this happened even though he’s told it otherwise previously, including during the video/ walk thru “re-creation” earlier the SAME day. This middle position is a key to knowing TM’s walking speed and where he was when he started to run, and how GZ seems to have pushed his false narrative to leave out following him down TTL in his car, the REASON TM ran in the first place. This middle position scenario RESOLVES inconsistencies and contradictions whereas any other possible version creates contradictions and inconsistencies, and they create the SAME contradictions and inconsistencies that GZ has with investigators.
here are the supporting maps and testimony for all this:
Interesting that you mention the worn-out grassy pathway. I was thinking about that, too.
What seems to be getting overlooked by O’Mara’s team is that the worn out grassy path running parallel to the sidewalk at the top of the Tee right outside Witness 11’s house puts ZIMMERMAN closer to a “hidden” location than Trayvon Martin. The bushes weren’t tall enough for
Trayvon Martin to hide from someone on the top of the doggie path Tee.
They were positioned, however, near the corner of a house and alongside a known and obvious path, ideal for sneaking up on anyone already heading south. No way George could have walked past that point and not seen Trayvon Martin hiding there. The hider was Zimmerman as he snuck up on Trayvon Martin if it all started there. I don’t even believe that’s where it started.
I always had difficulty with this. If he DID do a u-turn and is facing west, he can’t see behind him in the dark to see Trayvon make the south-bound turn at the T. So he can’t say “toward the back entrance”. But if Trayvon runs down TTL then he can say this with confidence, as the back entrance is where TTL leads to.
It would be faster for him to jump out and run after him, than do a 3-point turn to follow by car. Also he knows there are 3 cut-throughs (2 towards the doggie path, one towards the lake) that TM could duck into where he can’t follow by car. So on foot is more tiring but likely to get better results.
If he was parked facing east, as I first thought and as he claims in the walkthrough, then drifting by car around the corner would make the more sense, if Trayvon runs down TTL. If he runs on the path, then he’d be visible heading southward, and following on foot the only option.
Tchoupi’s analysis indicates a car doing a u-turn to face west. GZ’s mapping of his vehicle positions is a confused mess. He told Taaffe he was faced west.
Keep in mind, he is primed to think the black males robbing and thugging enter either through the cut-through OR the back entrance. This apparently has been observed previously so he is probably assuming that Trayvon moving in that general direction has to be him moving to the back entrance to evade “capture.”
He had his headlights on…that may have provided some light to see possibly.
Austin told De la Rionda that the person he saw on the ground was on its side turning it’s back to him. So, it may have been some rotation.
Since, he didn’t notice John (W6) nor W19 outside, since he was not noticed by them either, and since John went to is porch immediately after hearing the scuffle, it is safe to say that Austin came after John & W19 went back inside.
So Austin would may have seen a rotation from TM on top to both on their side just seconds before the gunshot.
Here’s my idea of where Austin was:
Although like the note says, it needs slight revision I think. Camera is in the right position but Austin is a little closer to camera I think, and so slightly farther uphill/ towards the building in front of him in the photo.
He’s 40-45 feet away IMO, the same distance as the body from the T, or home plate to the front of the pitcher’s mound. And it’s very dark, but kids have better night vision than mature adults.
I think It must be an error concerning Austin’s location when he saw the person on the ground.
I don’t doubt your triangulation based on the picture. I doubt the picture.
If it’s right, Austin would have walked with his dog up the walkway pass Teresa (2821 RVC), Selma & Mary (2831 RVC) & the 2 bahodoor sisters (2841) without anyone noticing while everybody’s looking what’s going on.
yeah, go figure. All I know is that’s what’s in the photo. But keep in mind everyone seems to have been looking at where the noise was coming from mostly. Austin may have been ahead of schedule from their looks, and it’s also important to consider that unless you are all the way up at your window, the POV is a narrow range that someone would cross more quickly, depending on how far back in the house a viewer was. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, that’s why I care about where GZ himself says he was in comparison to the recorded call, and where the evidence on the ground was. I tend to shy away from what witnesses saw as a reliable means for judging much of anything.
Also eye witnesses can be cross-examined in trial but if the prosecution bases much of its case on GZ’s own words, what can the defense do, cross examine their own client to impeach himself? (don’t laugh, and look for ADHD and PTSD and twinkies too to be introduced to “Explain” GZ’s false statements as some sort of consequence he is not responsible for.)
Getting back to Austin, whatever he saw won’t get the prosecution far at trial IMO. And I don’t put much stock in trying to place the timing of what he saw by the idea that he didn’t see “John” or W19, but it’s worth speculating about.
I’m curious (but we’ll never know absent a confession) if GZ moved TM’s arms from an “I surrender” position to under his body to cover the obvious – that the teen was no longer struggling when he was shot. GZ’s biased statements are proof of little but might suggest that he feared a witness saw him after the shot manipulating the body and had to invent something to cover the actions he DID do. I just don’t think we will know, absent a confession. It’s all speculation, especially when it comes time for a trial.
(But maybe Osterman has already flipped on GZ to avoid being charged as an accessory. Anyone consider that one?)
Yes, here’s a very strange guy, with his credentials I’d expect that he carries gps enabled device(s). What was he doing in the area, so far from his own home? To do banking? Are there no banks (ATM’s) where he lives? Did he withdraw cash? Or merely check his balances while passing time watching TM across the road?
My guess is it will be left to the FBI to investigate him. And it does seem like, after leaving the bank, he went into RATL before the shot was fired. But that’s just an impression I got, no evidence yet to back it. A guy like that would probably have disabled his gps devices that night, that would be very telling. Also, I don’t think he’d forget about when the gates close, so he’d know to drive in before then. After all, it wouldn’t do to come in later and have some cop at the gate remember his badge/id to get waved through.
Obviously he does appear with SZ in retrieving the truck. That would also be telling, since he gets a call from SZ, who doesn’t know he’s already inside the gate? Shouldn’t she be getting a call from him first? Letting her know that he’s on his way over? Otherwise, what reason does he have to believe that GZ won’t be home, if he makes no contact? Or, are we missing his trip to GZ’s house? Oh well, keep looking, “the devil is in the details as they say”.
I wish they’d asked him where his dog was retrieved. Got a feeling the dog ran into a unpaved grassy cut-through. That could be why nobody saw Austin.
Anybody see this before, Zimmerman calls the killing of Martin a crummy day..unbelievable. He talks about patrolling the neighborhood again, and that they need him. This man is gonna kill again, he is nuts!! Please read!!!
He is looney tunes if he did say that to reporters.
IGNORE the ONION. It is meant to be satire, they make it up wholesale.
Just heard police audio in reference to running GZ tag and license from Orlando Sentinel. I don’t know if this was discussed, but I do remember someone posting that Shellie must of removed the car before anyone knew where it was parked.
Does this mean that an officer noted the exact location of where his car was parked before it was removed?
Listen forward from 1:58
first audio length 2:53
The officer ask to run the tags to see if they belong to any of the residents and the dispatcher replies, Zimmerman.
I haven’t reviewed it, yet. If that’s the case, then why did they not secure it as part of the crime scene? The PD reported it that they could not secure his vehicle as part of the crime scene because his wife had drove it home.
I’ll listen to that later. Thanks, Loree.
@ ADMIN I am not getting follow up posts sent to my email, i always follow this blog and didn’t get a follow confirmation, I know you changed settings , please help
I will check. Thank you. Is this happening to anyone else now too?
at 1.55 they give Zimmerman’s licence details, something about “conditions (?) corrective lenses and expires 2016 ..(unintelligible).. your subject”.
at 2.30 — “tag 816KLP tell me if it’s registered anywhere ‘tween the lakes”…. reply just one word “Zimmerman”.
OK so is that George or Shellie?
Do any of you guys know how to check registrations and confirm this, from that tag number?
Trouble is they were just looking for cars that didn’t belong there, didn’t think knowing where GZ’s was would be relevant.
“The officer ask to run the tags to see if they belong to any of the residents and the dispatcher replies, Zimmerman.”
It’s in the police dispatch audio on Orlando Sentinel’s site. I just got to listen and verify. One plate number is rattled off, and it’s mentioned as a white Honda then another plate number rattled off and is asked if it belongs to a resident at Twin Lakes the only response is “Zimmerman.”
Oh, yeah, that was the other point I wanted to make. Main reason I finally decided to post. I heard them respond to one of the tags as “— Zimmerman.” I see you beat me to the punch. Sounds like car was either registered to G or Shellie then, right? But police “thought” he was walking & never checked that car when it didn’t belong to the dead black guy … waaaaaa????
I missed that about a Honda.
That sounds like there may have been a Honda PLUS a different one registered to “Zimmerman”.
I wish I knew how to slow downs tapes just a tiny bit, to be able to get this fast muttered cross-talk stuff.
tag 816KLP is the one that brought the reply “Zimmerman”. IF someone can grab the tag for the Honda, too, maybe run them through some site that says who owns what? I don’t know what the appropriate authority would be called in FL.
I mean, interesting if there was a moment in time when both GZs and Shellie’s vehicles were there. Would give us a line on when she got there.
Well, there’s that huge ass white truck that always seems to be parked there, so I’m thinking that’s Jeremy’s or John’s…
I can go back in a bit to see if I can grab that first plate, though that one seemed a bit more hard to hear.
He says it fast, but I got ATTS68 (Alpha Tango Tango Sierra 6 8). The could be a C, but I think it’s more likely an S.
C is Charlie so if he said Sierra it’s an S
so we have
816KLP (brand not said)
Please someone who knows where, check out the owners of these.
The big ass truck that is always there is a white Ford. It is so much always there, it shows up on several different Google Earth and satellite maps. It seems to belong to Jeremy who lives in that corner house.
I don’t know how he gets away with it. I read on some real estate site that the HOA doesn’t allow parking on the street. It is also often parked on the wrong side of the street.
It’s main role in this saga was to confuse us for weeks, and to provide shelter for GZ’s father and bff MO while they were observing the walkthrough.
It’s a Ford? Hm, so who is the Honda? Hmmm.
Also, if Jeremy’s wife is involved in HOA, that’s how he gets away with it.
Rules don’t seem to apply to the ones who create/enforce them. I have especially noticed this in HOA areas.
It’s after the 1:58 mark, as Loree mentions.
Just saw a photo of police checking cars on the night. Didn’t record where because it wasn’t relevant – – he was checking that white Ford that is permanently parked on the corner.
I don’t think they’d record the locations. Just radio in the number, get an immediate response about the owner, then move on to the next vehicle. Probably they’d only record any that came out suspicious, ie not belonging to a resident.
I don’t see why George’s vehicle location wouldn’t be noted, car impounded & searched. It’s part of a crime scene for god’s sake. The police say they “thought” he was on foot, despite the Honda key, the NEN call & his statements. One key example of how shoddy their work really was. Another is all the people at the scene — were they noted on the crime scene contamination list (have to double check). It seems quite unusual.
Oh, one other thing that’s been bugging me. Soooooo much wrong w/ W13 –as if the pic of the bloody head & body aren’t weird enough — the flashlight? WHY would you take a picture of a flashlight after a shooting. Suggests to me that there may be some truth to the thought he planted it there to put his location closer to the T, then either told W13 to take pic or took pic & later passed to W13 (as he provided to police from his computer). That’s just BIZARRE. I mean, you can possibly come up with a rubbernecking-type scenario for the other 2 pics, but a flashlight? At a shooting scene?
Welcome and thank you for reading/commenting! The Sanford PD has a ton of explaining to do regarding Zimmerman’s vehicle not being impounded. A ton.
“See look there’s where he attacked me, up there” take a pic in case someone destroys that evidence???? never mind it might be fake evidence in the first place?
Actually, the guy who took the photos did not go out through his patio door. I think it was blocked because they were assembling furniture on the floor in there.
He went out through his GARAGE at the front and ran around the corner, and came across GZ in his “pacing up and down with hands on head” period, probably about half way from the T to the shooting. This is verified by another witness. So the bloodied head and the keychain flashlight were the only 2 bits of “evidence” close by for that guy to photograph.
Then he took one of the body, and then he had to stop because the police arrived.
Incredibly bizarre! I am completely confused as to the pictures taken. In one statement its a witness taking pictures with his iphone, then in police reports an Officer Wagner (I believe) states he takes pictures with his iphone?!? It’s like sifting through manure.
Since Corey’s office has the radio transmissions from the officer who called in that plate(s), it shouldn’t be to hard to question him and get an answer as to where the truck was parked as he was calling in that plate. Officers usually have good memories, and or trained to do so. Since this became a high profile case about 2 weeks after 2/26/12. The first murder of the year, I am willing to bet that officer remembers where that truck was.
Maybe, like NLME has been asking about, the officers dash cam caught the location while he was calling it in.
For sure, because all he has to remember is where he was standing and from which direction he was taking plate numbers in which order etc., so there’s quite a bit to trigger the memory.
Just a note aussie in the last year here in Waikiki we have had the google street view car in various locations (can’t miss it with the apparatus on it’s roof) My friend was curious so asked the driver about google street view and she was told that google does not up date it’s street view except for every 6 months. However I have googled my street for a 12 month period and it still shows the same character walking by my building. I wouldn’t put too much into the truck always there in google maps try bing it may not show that same truck.
@sdunn5, I don’t know how often google map updates, but I do know the aerial view is different than the street view. The street view of my house is the same one from 4 years ago. The aerial one is different. If you think about, it’s easy for them to refresh the one from above. They’re not going to send those trucks down every street every 6 months, although they might do it for major streets.
Missed this — thank you.
I follow this case very closely, reviewing & analyzing all evidence, but I don’t post here because I can’t keep up with the volume of comments & I always feel like I should read every last one, lest I be repetitive. I’ve decided to go ahead and jump in w/ a few things all this new evidence despite that I’ve only skimmed some of comments above.
First, now that we’ve heard Osterman’s version of what GZ told him, we now know that GZ was swatting at STARS, not flies, in his reenactment. 🙂 It all makes sense now!
Also, GZ talked to two people almost immediately after leaving the police station: Osterman & the co-worker 8:30am on 2/27. In both those stories, he said he got out of the car to continue to track Martin. This was while still fresh in his head & prior to reenactment. So, he was saving the address story for police. Also, y’all may mention above, but in the story he tells the co-worker, he additionally says Trayvon was “kicking the shit out of (him)” (while pinning & pounding, pounding, pounding (a part he likes to emphasize)), so let’s fit that in to the pinning Tray’s hand, or swatting Tray’s hand, I mean elbow on the ground, shot. KICKING him!
Of course, I’ve paid close attention to the psychopath warning signs, which I believe you talk about in depth above. The thing w/ the mom & electricity, was just like, WOW! I’m the g.f., I’m thinking -WRONG FAMILY! So, yes, I think we’re getting a good hint at where his explosive anger stems from. I have always thought him a sociopath w/narcissistic personality disorder. (‘cuz I dealt w/ one, so familiar w/ what narcissistic is about). Based on his demeanor after the shooting, he either has been waiting/wishing/planning for the moment and/or he’s killed before. Not only total lack of empathy, but lack of any elevation of body vitals directly after … it’s way too easy for him.
I’ll leave it there for now & see if I can catch up on comments a bit.
the important posts you missed are the ones where we worked out, from GZ’s statements, that TM had 8 arms (which the lazy autopsy people failed to find most of). Possible he had some spare kicking legs, too. Don’t forget the first punch was strong enough to propel him 50ft down the path. This is why GZ was so afraid of him. 😉
Seriously, the turning off mom’s electricity I don’t know the source of. Being beaten as a kid seems to be only from friend Osterman, who did not know him then, so that is just repeating something GZ told him. And we know what he’s like with stories. Though it would fit with the personality profile.
About commenting……. just yesterday NLME changed the settings. First-time users still have to wait for him to moderate. Existing users’ posts go live right away. This makes it much easier to keep related topics together in time order, as we can reply to each other in a proper conversational flow.
Don’t add to comment streams more than a day or so old, as nobody will read back that far to see it. It’s better to make a new comment, and people can refer you back or give new replies on that.
IF you want to respond to something a bit older, make a new comment. Quote a bit of the one you’re answering, mention the author’s name, plus put (comment X) which is the number beside each main comment in the margin.
Being beaten as a kid is also supported by the myspace page where he says about how he and his friends are all afraid of his mom.
Hey Aussie– Definitely! Both Trayvon and GZ must have supernatural powers & Tray, yeah, a FEW extra appendages, as well. GZ had his x-ray vision to see behind houses & the ability to squeeze out from under Martin (beaten and battered to w/in an inch of his life) just in time to keep so much as a drop of blood from splattering on him. 🙂
I thought the same about Osterman’s retelling of the mom abuse. There’s always the prospect that it’s part of GZ’s self-serving narrative to explain away certain failures in life, as Osterman has no personal knowledge. However, I always suspected there was some serious abuse in his past because that definitely fits with the sociopath. With Personality Disorders, the early abuse is of the nature of a severe & traumatic loss of control as a child, which creates the need always be in control & solidifies into a particularly intractable part of the person’s personality.
We heard from one neighbor that the Zim kids grew up under strict military discipline & played only amongst themselves, not with other children in the neighborhood. So I always suspected dad as military disciplinarian, and/or the Catholic Church, as altar boys were exceptionally vulnerable to priests. Between Osterman’s testimony, the MySpace Page comment Toneii points out (he & his friends scared of his momma), and the comments of the ex (painting mom as a particularly ugly/negative person & saying mom & grandma exercised quite a bit of control over him), I’m buying that mom, if not mom AND dad, were abusive in some way.
Really good to hear NLME made that change to the commenting. It’ll make it easier to participate, easier to keep the flow, and it’ll probably save him loads of grief, as well! 🙂
C’mon. You know ‘kicking the shit out of’ is a figure of speech, and not necessarily a literal reference to kicking with leg and foot. GZ’s flinging enough genuine BS, there’s no need to stretch to dubious inferences from his word choices.
About not impounding the car
When they went checking the tags of cars parked nearby, they were looking for a strange car that might belong to/help identify the unknown victim. The work was done by patrol cops who were just told to go check tags, and didn’t know why, except to get any that didn’t live there.
By the time the actual investigators maybe thought to impound GZ’s truck it wasn’t there. In the normal scheme of things, it wasn’t relevant to the case at all. There was no allegatiion of shots fired from it, or a hit-and-run, etc etc.
The only relevance of it is the LOCATION, and that only became important when the SYG started to be disputed, days later, because of the vehicle’s role in the pre-attack stalking.
If it were my investigation, I’d probably not bother impounding it either. But I’d like to be able to put on a report somewhere, where it was.
i think you might be right, by the time they were putting the pieces of the puzzle together the car was gone….
Well, at very minimum, the location should have been noted. I hope you are correct that, indeed, the location is traceable or the officer remembers & can check it against GZ’s placement of it. At the time, they would not have know the car to be of specific evidentiary value, but in my limited understanding/take-away from amhomicide investigation procedures guide, it seems like they would impound as an exercise in total thoroughness. At minimum, they should have searched the damn thing–at least for evidence of drugs/drinking. They search a car for driving w/out a seatbelt, for god’s sake. A guy just involved in a homicide? I say … YEAH! If Trayvon was shooter, car would have been, minimally searched, probably impounded. OK, jmho & all.
his car should have stood out a little because if he parked it where he said he did it was facing the wrong way. You drive on the right in the US but he parked his car on the left.
Assuming he actually parked it facing the way he said he did, in the place he said he parked it.
exactly, it would stand out like dogs balls.
Agreed. You’d also think the officers would state the vehicle was facing in the wrong direction when reading its tags?
Well, I guess Zimmerman was right about the one thing…the SPD are horrible. We see that as sad…he saw it as an opportunity to commit murder and it will all just blow over.
it is a bit strange that Osterman didn’t back zimmermans “i was looking for an address” excuse for getting out the car. It is obvious during Zims non emergency call that he was following, or looking for Trayvon but since then his story to the police has always been that he was looking for an address. Now he spent approx 6 weeks with Osterman, i am sure they discussed what happened over and over and not just once, going over details. So why did his bff give him up on looking for Trayvon rather than a street sign. I’m sure that Zim would be lying to everyone about the actual fight and how Martin ended up being shot, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he had in fact told bff what really happened in the lead up to the fight. Maybe this was part of the truth that just slipped out, because i’m sure they got their story straight before Osterman spoke with the feds. It just seems a bit wierd that one of Zimmermans major tales wasn’t backed up by his buddy, either the truth slipped out or perhaps Zimmermans story to his friend was slightly different because he knew he could tell him the true scenario without getting in trouble, not expecting that he would ever have to speak to the authorities. hmmmmm
By the time he was interviewed he’d have known the “street sign” story had not gone over too well.
For sure they’d have gone over it many times. He might be responsible for some of the changes between the SIngleton interview and the Serino ones, which Serino said “sounded scripted”.
If it was indeed MO who tipped GZ off about the suspicious guy, he’d have known he was looking for and following him, wouldn’t need to be told that part of it. The actual shooting? strange the way he describes it “with elbow on the ground”. Why that would be relevant, and or how that would be possible? also the wording “rotated” the gun, what does that mean?
GZ seems to have several buddies who are not doing him any favours, look at the strange stuff Taaffe said. This guy at least has stood by him, given him shelter, looked after him without pushing himself into the limelight. And if he did provide the tip-off, and it was just an innocent casual remark, he may feel partly responsible for the whole mess that resulted. I haven’t really worked him out yet.
I don’t know what to make of Osterman saying this. No doubt in my mind GZ told Osterman the truth & MO was helping to script the story. Why would he then go off-script when the feds finally roll around to him? I can’t begin to imagine, except a possible slip. Even if the address story isn’t going over well, it *is* the story…
It’ll be veeerry interesting when we get confirmation as to whether that is, indeed, Osterman at the bank. Really? Why would dude be helping his buddy on his little fantasy patrol? Anyway, I guess we’ll find out more on that front later.
W13 took a picture of the flashlight at the T? I missed this. That is VERY suspicious.
And we know GZ wandered up towards the T right after the shooting. He was thinking clear enough to do all this planning right after?
If this “plant” is true, it supports the idea that GZ has been doing this kind of crap all his life. Most humans would be too distraught to think.
W13 says he took three pictures; one was the back of GZ’s head, one was of TM, and the other was of the flashlight on the ground.
The keychain with flashlight on very well could be a plant, but I’m not sure if there is enough evidence to suggest that it was in fact a plant, and I really question whether he is smart/quick thinking enough to do that.
I don’t know if it is here or another blog but someone suggested that the keys could have feel out as he rounded the corner and went for his gun. I do not think there was a confrontation at the point where the keys and the flashlight are. You would have to discount all of the other physical evidence 50 feet away, IMO. And for some reason, Zimmerman wants to keep the fight there at the T. How could everything have happened where he claims, bet the bag and phone be 30 feet away. The clown dropped his keys is what I suspect.
Regarding this thread, I actually have put little credence in the plant theory, just because of what Milo suggests — how would he think that fast & assume this would help his story? However, I start to think it more likely if that, indeed, was the flashlight W13 took a pic of. That would be such a bizarre thing to take a picture of, even though it was along W13’s path of travel. It would suggest to me that someone thought it would bolster GZ’s side of things. Under that set of circumstances, the flashlight placement begins to seem more suspect. Otherwise, I agree it could have just fallen from his pocket or something.
I was under the distinct impression the flashlight photographed was the one at the T, but I can’t remember why. Was there something that led me to believe that? Or did I just assume? I’ll see if I can find it again. If it were the other flashlight, that is still weird, but slightly less so because of it’s proximity to the body, which he also photographs. (Yuck!)
(P.S. — Hi Princess!! 🙂 **WAVES** LOL)
Zimmerman initially left the body and returned to the T, right after the shooting. Maybe he had already felt the need to reinforce a story after just hunting TM down and killing him, then finding no weapon on Trayvon, that his imagination had previously created for him. So he goes up to the T, and drops the keys to make it look like he was attacked there. As if to say, “I was just walking through here, minding my own business, and he attacked me.”
Was Zimmerman apprehended near the T? Or, was he well south of it closer to Trayvon’s body?
IIRC, near the T.
In the reenactment, Zimmerman walked directly the to the spot marked by the keys.
Do we know for certain if the iPhone picture was the keychain flashlight or could it have been the black tactical flashlight close to the body? I’m waiting to see the picture … But wonder if anyone knows the answer given by W13 – TIA – I’m afk just now
” One photo was of a flashlight lying in the grass next to Martin…”
OK, well then, scratch all that stuff about the flashlight at the T! Thanks for finding that, Aussie! It’s still weird & random, but quite a bit less suspicious than if it had been the other flashlight.
The same witness, in I think his first statement to the police, did say he saw the keychain light near the T and the light was on. Let’s remember he entered the scene from the direction of the T himself, having left his house through the garage and gone around.
It was the small flashlight with the honda key attached, if I remember correctly. @11:35 in W13’s taped statement on 3/20/12, talks about seeing both flashlights.
Much more likely he took a picture of the larger flashlight on the ground near the body, a picture of which he also took.
If the cops hadn’t chased him off perhaps he’d have gotten around to taking pictures of the rest of the evidence, including the keychain flashlight, as well.
Even if Manalo didn’t take any picture of the chained flashlight,
he clearly refers to it in one of the interviews (can’t recall which one) by stating that it caught his attention as it was on illuminating the grass I guess.
Do you know iPhone camera guy was standing when he took those pictures?
If he’s close to the body, then getting a shot of the larger flashlight is more likely–he didn’t have a lot of time before Smith got there and most likely told him to back off.
He probably felt like the body and Zimmerman’s bloody head were the most important shots to get, and after that he’d branch out to other stuff, probably starting with what was closest. Also, he might have thought Martin was using that larger flashlight to beat on George’s head, which would increase its importance as a photo subject.
He describes a picture of the larger flashlight and the body all in one photo. He took 3 photos.
– Body and larger flashlight
– Other flashlight
Wonder why he didn’t get a shot of Martin’s cell phone while he was near the body.
Wish he’d gotten the tan 7-11 bag. I’d like to know when and how the beverage can came out of it.
If anyone is curious to decipher some chicken scratch, GZ marked a map showing his positions when he was questioned by Singleton the night of the killing. It’s available here in a version I used photoshop on to enhance the contrast so it’s as readable as it is ever going to be until we see the actual document (which I wish the media would request to examine and photograph in color -what’s the sunshine law regarding seeing the actual documents vs a facsimile?)
Go to the ACTIONS button to download the full size version.
Then use this version to see where I think the marks were made and what they might suggest.
I could really use a second set of eyes to make sense of this map, but it seems to me to be quite significant since it suggests strongly the way GZ lies and why he lies and what he’s covering up, and it’s the strongest set of contradictions that can be used to impeach his character at trial – it’s all about how and why he moved from near the clubhouse to near the cut thru – and may also have Mark Osterman’s involvement suggested within it as well, it’s impossible to say just yet. But there are clues there to consider.
The whole map/movement affair scenario is outlined here:
(I’ve been speaking about this scenario at TalkLeft for some time now, and no one there can refute the basic sense it makes no matter how hard they would like to.)
Like your work Willi. Thanks.
I’ve added a link from my photo album.
I’ve also seen some examiners use 3fps for an adult walking. I don’t see many people walking very fast while talking on a phone. It was raining, but then that’s why there’s “sheltering” so I guess we can assume that TM began moving when the rain was light enough to tolerate. I think 4.25 fps would be closer to the over all average. Where short spurts of speed and/or slow downs wouldn’t cause much deviation over the course.
It also occurred to me, if the phone TM was using, was susceptible to water damage, might he not have emptied the 711 bag, to use as protection for the phone? Just sort of tuck it in the waistband and let it hang over the phone.
Just a thought.
I’m around the same height as TM, and I walk at 5fps when I don’t think about going fast or slow.. The interesting thing about GZ’s middle position mark at the first corner is that if you plug in whatever speed you like within reason, you probably need to assume TM walks AWAY from the vehicle at least as fast or faster than he walked TOWARDS it. If he’s walking very fast, then he’s out of sight of GZ’s “final parking spot” when GZ says “Sh*t, he’s running” so that seems to put the lie to that story. If he’s walking at any pace, he’s STILL out of sight if GZ was there the whole time, since he tells dispatch TM was “near the clubhouse?/yeah” when asked to give TM’s position.
TM seems to walk towards the car for 34 seconds or so, and away for 30, more or less. It’s possible he had a few seconds head start, if he was moving already whenGZ says” NOW he’s coming towards me.” But in a general sense GZ should be somewhere APRT way to the cut thru, not AT the cut thru if GZ can still see TM when he runs. It’s just common sense. One has to consider the “long tail” as well as the lead up.
As for the idea that TM doubled back and circled the car, it’s just ludicrous to consider as the truth given GZ’s repeated insistence that he is “by the clubhouse ” when he is played the recording, plus the added statement that GZ gave in the walk thru video where he claims he was speaking to dispatch when he moved his car from the parking lot. He’s caught up in his own lies like a schoolboy, and this middle position (which he himself marked on a map) RESOLVES inconsisitencies and contradictions and also explains why GZ never volunteered anythign about TM running – he only speaks of it when prompted. In fact, were the call not recorded, it seems to me that GZ would have told his tale without ever mentioning TM running, and SPD would be none the wiser.
Further strange thngs in buddy MO’s statement (p 77)
1) witnesses going back inside. The only one who said they were out before the shooting was John. GZ told MO three persons.
2) in the walkthrough he placed all 3 coming out and not helping him AFTER THE SHOOTING when he was busy restraining a dead body and still calling for help.
3) he claimed EYE CONTACT with these disappearing witnesses. In lighting conditions that for other people was not bright enough to pick skin or clothing colour, he could see and look into people’s EYES from 10 – 20 feet????
4) managing to draw the gun, ROTATE it whatever that means, and shooting with his elbow on the ground. Hard to imagine how this would line up with the known trajectory into the victim. …
Hi, new to the forum but have read much (tho not all) of the comments above and other sites, and this is my first time joining in any of these conversations. I do find it all “so interesting”. I believe the “rotating the gun” refers to the gun being inside his waistband on the right hip. Since GZ is lefthanded, he would have to have it holstered with the but of the gun facing forward for a crossdraw (that is, he prefers reaching with his left hand across his body to pull out the gun from the right hip, hence the butt of the gun would have to face forward.). I’m not gun expert, but that’s what others say is the preference for some people. Seeing that MO is the gun expert, he would pick up on this detail. Regarding the rest of his statement (MO’s that is), despite those inconsistencies you mentioned, at first impression when I was reading it, i thought that it sounded so eerily close to GZ’s version, as did his father’s account of it. Being that those two were at the reenactment and closely involved from the beginning, that is why GZ’s account sounded scripted. One would actually expect a lot more inconsistencies from just hearing his story once (for example, the co-worker who thought he was “mugged”) and then having to recall it weeks or months later.
Regarding MO being the last person on the bank video, I’m not convinced of that. Isn’t that person wearing glasses? (I could be wrong, it’s such a grainly video). MO has only been seen with sunglasses, not eyeglasses.Also, despite the shaved head and weight, they don’t seem to have the same facial structure. That’s just a first impression…..
Oh, I didn’t finish the “rotating” explanation….so GZ would have to “rotate” the gun forward when he pulled it out of the holster with his right hand in order to shoot. By saying that his elbow was on the ground, he is saying that GZ was definitely on the ground still when the shot when off. As far as how GZ might have gotten to the holster in the first place when being straddled and “pummelled” is another story. Of course, that question has been asked and discussed ad nauseum, I’m sure. If the answer to that question is that TM had to have been “letting up” for that to happen, in which case, self-defense couldn’t apply, could it?
Well… Try this: Put an eyeglass case inside your waistband and have someone straddle you as you lay on your back, and try to draw the glasses out of the case. Then, try it again, but this time have the person on top try to prevent it.
You will quickly become convinced that what GZ claims happened is a bald faced lie!
I admit that I was unable to visualize the whole left/right handed holster, cross draw scenario…until I was watching S4:E2 of Breaking Bad on Netflix. I knew it was a matter of time before something about GZs story would be revealed in a TV program, considering all the cheezy one-liners he was quoting Trayvon as saying.
In this episode, Walt is purchasing an illegal hand gun from a seller inside a seedy hotel room. Walt is right handed, the seller is advising him of how to holster the gun, and other ‘gun etiquette’. He then gives Walt a holster with a clip for wearing inside the waistband. However, when he places it on his right side, he says that it feels odd and decides to place the holster on his left, but the seller advises that he’d then be forced to ‘cross draw’ and that’s normally used for one in a sitting postion such as a store clerk, or card game dealer. He then advised Walt to practice his draw technique.
FINALLY, my ‘AH-HA’ moment…I now see how it would be virtually impossible for GZ to have reached around Trayvon if he was sitting high up on his stomach and pinched/pinned Trayvons arm to prevent him from reaching for the gun as GZ claims.
the mind boggles doesn’t it…if you are having the shit kicked out of you, head smashed into the ground, nose and mouth covered, blood in your eyes etc etc, how would you even notice when someone came outside. Even if you heard them yell out or heard the door, if you are being beaten and suffocated that badly how do you get a chance to look them in the eye while you are fighting off a deadly attack. FULL.OF.SHIT.
He’s so clear that he’s making eye contact with people in the distance, but has so much blood in his eyes as to not be able to see in which direction (back, side, or ??) 155 lbs of weight falls off his body. Yep. I buy that …
*his* body, that is.
I’ve also deleted the other comment (assuming I deleted the right one). 🙂
Considering Zimmerman flat out stated Sonner and Uhrig weren’t his legal counsel, just advisors, can they be called by the prosecution?
Hmmmm….??????? Intriguing question.
good call. And what about Hannity as well, or maybe the authorities aren’t interested in him because they know he’s full of shit.
Lol, I don’t know, Jo… I’ve wondered about Hannity, too. Could he have some sort of journalistic immunity? What’s the difference between someone who reports the news and someone who comments on the news? Does someone who merely comments on the news have any sort of journalistic immunity?
Journalists don’t have any sort of codified immunity. They typically refuse to disclose their sources, even under court order, but may be charged with contempt for doing so. They will appeal on 1st Amendment grounds… It’s a case by case struggle. This is different because everyone knows GZ spoke to Hannity. However, as anything Hannity might report could be considered hearsay, there may be no point in calling him. And certainly, getting him involved would create a distracting circus atmosphere.
I have been doing some research on Air Marshall, and found some things. First Air Marshall use a Sig .357 P-250 at one time they ammo was so powerful it would go through the entire plane. At another the ammo was a frangible ammunition but the source dried up, there is some question on what type of ammounition should be used. Currently a hollow point ammountion is used, just like GZ had. Another aspect of Air Marshall that, and the boost about it are trained to “shoot to kill”. However the only incident I found was in 2005, a mental ill person claimed to have a bomb, but when confronted he drop the so called bomb and ran from the airplane and down the run way, he was killed by Air Marshalls. Another aspect is that training for Air Marshalls is only 5 weeks.
The Air Marshall service has been plaged by alcoholish, sleeping on job, human trafficing, kiddie porn, child molenstation, weapons smuggling. Some 3 dozen Air Marshalls have been dismissed due to conviction and misconduct. In fact there appear to be no background checks, some Air Marshalls were hired even with criminal records.
Unbelievable! Thanks for the link.
VERY interesting link…thank you. I previously — Friday — thought/assumed on twitter that air marshals were legit government employees similar to FBI agents. So, I wondered why Osterman would be hanging out with the likes of Zimmerman. I guess their legitimacy was easily disproved.
I am not getting follow up post. I posted the jailhouse calls, and haven’t rec’d any comments after that, please help!
who was it that overheard someone ask zimmerman what bullet he used and how long was it after the shooting? Could this have been his gun buddy who apparently arrived very quickly since he commented that he didn’t speak to george or the police “in depth”.
IIRC, Jon was the one who asked if he used a 9 or 40, and Jon is the one who tells that to investigators. Jon was the first person on scene and he Jon says that GZ tells him that he was getting beat up so he had to shoot then the guy says he asked if he used a 9 or 40. I’m not sure if anyone else overheard this conversation.
This text suggests that gun buddy is iphone Jon?
“Flashlights from neighbors began to illuminate bits of the night. Police were en route. Zimmerman stood over Trayvon.
“The gun’s on the ground,” Zimmerman said, according to the witness. “I shot this guy in self-defense.”
They appear to be his first words after the shooting.
Another neighbor whose wife had been peering intermittently at the squabble soon came outside. He shined his flashlight on Zimmerman.
“Man, I got blood on my face?” Zimmerman asked, the witness told police on the night of the shooting.
“Yeah, you got blood all over, man,” the witness said he responded. “I looked over and he’s got blood on the back of his head. You all right man?”
Zimmerman: “Ah, man this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him.” The witness asked what kind of gun Zimmerman shot.
“Did you use a 9 [mm] or a .40?” he asked.
Zimmerman: “I used a 9.” Witness: “Did you call 911 yet?”
Zimmerman squatted down and, the witness said, he could see “blood on the back of his head, grass stains. And by that time I flashed my light down. And there was this kid face down in the grass.”
“Can you please call my wife,” Zimmerman reportedly asked him, the witness said in a follow-up interview a month later. “Let her know what happened.”
The witness complied, called Mrs. Zimmerman and told her that her husband was handcuffed and being held in a shooting. Zimmerman apparently chimed in.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2804894/cries-in-the-night-witnesses-conflict.html#storylink=cpy
Correct. That is W13. Listen to his second recorded witness statement with FDLE on 3/20/12
Here’s Serino’s 2 page FBI statement for anyone who hasn’t seen it, yet.
Here’s my problem with Serino pointing at these other people as the leaks… In one of the OS articles supposedly from a source close to/with the SPD, IIRC, states that the person believes Zimmerman’s story. It wouldn’t make sense for the people supposedly pressuring Serino because they didn’t believe GZ and thought he should be arrested would then leak info while stating they believed his claim of SD. How does that add up?
haha you still expecting anything to add up about this case??
All I can think is, if you are say one of only 2 people who believe one version, saying so when you leak something is going to make it real easy to identify you. So you can claim to be one of the majority with the other view.
We all seriously need to take a very close look at our unrealistic expectation that most people most the time will tell the whole truth about anything.
Some untruths are for convenience. Some are by omission. Some by vagueness that lets the hearer make assumptions, some of these deliberately aimed at that result and some accidentally caused by speaker and listener having different frames of reference. Some don’t matter at all.
Some may be deliberate lies. Even those will often have a grain of truth in them, as we are finding with GZ’s stories. It is easier to take a truth and twist it a little, than to make up something totally new.
For example he says he went through to RVC — maybe he did but not along the top path. He says Trayvon approached his car — maybe he did but not at the club/mailboxes. He says 3 witnesses came out — well they did but not while he was being held down calling for help. He says he was on top of TM restraining him — maybe he was but not after he’d shot him.
Aussie, you state: . ..He says 3 witnesses came out — well they did but not while he was being held down calling for help. [b]He says he was on top of TM restraining him — maybe he was but not after he’d shot him.[/b]
I’ve been following these threads pretty closely, and I believe I understand your theories of what occurred…but I am unclear on this – are you saying that you do not believe that GZ’s story that he got on top of Trayvon after he shot him and pulled his arms out in a “Y” to restrain him?
If so, could you elaborate on why you believe he is telling this lie, if you have a theory in that regard? TIA
princss6 mentioned a non-emergency/911 call GZ made before where it shows he was willing to confront a teen he believed was a criminal. In the call towards the end, he says “I’m gonna…” then his wife interrupts him and tells him no, don’t go out there, and he replies “Why not?”
After listening to the other calls, this is the only time he mentions going out there. All the other black males are older and/or in groups. When he saw a teenage suspect alone, though, he seemed not to have a problem going out there, but his wife stopped him.
In addition, in one call where he mentions a black man he sees on garbage days that is now walking between some houses, GZ states he knows the owner of the home then adds “he’s caucasian.” WHY? The dispatcher does not ask anything about the race of the homeowner, so why does GZ feel it necessary to offer up that detail?
Same story he tells in the walk-through at the start. The long story about the previous time he was someone at Taaffe’s house. I think it’s just meant to mean the owner is Caucasian therefore this black person can’t be the owner, therefore he’s up to no good being there.
Calling it in saying you know the owner kind of already points out this is not the owner, lol, so it’s unnecessary to add that the owner is caucasian after he’s already said he knows the owner (if this was the owner then he wouldn’t be calling it in), but sorry to post something repetitive.
That’s what I heard, too. Another possibility is that he knows somehow that Taaffe didn’t have black friends.
Thank you. It does indeed sound like he was ready to go confront. Wonder the date of that call.
This is rumor so if anyone here can confirm it I would like to know. The bank videos of the GZ on the night he shot TM are now available. On another website someone there claims to have seen the video, it shows GZ and Mark Osterman at the bank ATM, just prior to the shooting. I understand that Osterman did show up at the shooting as well, he lives some distance away. There appears to be no calls on GZ cell phone to Osterman that night, so why did he show up? Another question is why didn’t GZ tell the police he was at the bank ATM with Osterman?
The ATM video shows someone at 6:36 PM who may or may not be Osterman.
No sign of Zimmerman in that video.
All it proves so far is that a guy with little or no hair who is not Zimmerman in a silverish sedan has an ATM card.
Actually the first person on the video could be Shellie.
I agree. I haven’t done more Honda Ridgeline research yet (though said research will only take seconds). Specifically, research on the driver’s side mirror.
I’m late to the party today but is there any link you can cite regarding the above? Especially…
“There appears to be no calls on GZ cell phone to Osterman that night, so why did he show up?”
Or, was that passage entirely (not in a condescending tone) a rumor?
So NMLE, it’s very likely they didn’t communicate Osterman, Taaffe and GZ, by phone, but by walkies talkies purchased at Walmart? Could telling someone to “call my wife, tell her I shot someone”, be to let her know why Osterman will be asking her to come with him as he recovers GZ’s car and walkie-talkie? From the way he talks about Shellie before the bail hearing, I doubt he’d trust her to do this on her own.
But it kinda explains why GZ can’t give directions to his truck. He doesn’t want them looking in it, before the radios can be removed. Yeah, pure speculation, but it does make a wee bit of sense, no? I mean, why else would a guy not know the three streets in a nabe he patrolled for many months? If there was a radio in the truck, then he certainly had a very good reason to become terribly confused, eh?
I goofed in not noting that the bank was in the opposite direction from 711, but no matter, for a guy with Osterman’s creds, that presents only a very tiny problem, for him, in tracking TM, if he’s interested. There are binoculars and that sort of thing. And, of course, they always have FT to fall back on.
Oh and we mustn’t forget that GZ mentions his truck and driving in the calls, so it’s not hard to imagine that his truck might become of interest early on. Thus, it’s extraordinarily helpful to have someone with Osterman’s LEO credentials around, to almost ensure that they can remove the truck from the scene. Osterman reminds me of “Hank” from “Breaking Bad”. Him and Shellie could easily pass for husband and wife.
I wonder if they were there in time to see the police checking tags? If so, it would have been pretty “ballzy” to go take the truck after that. In fact, with Osterman’s LEO creds, I’d rather have expected him to inform the police that this was Zimmerman’s vehicle and that perhaps they should have a closer look at it. I mean, I expect that’s what he’d do at any crime scene he was in control of, eh? So why is he spiriting evidence away at this one? FBI minds will certainly want to know!
Soething is going on… George doesn;t want the cops to come to his house…. then doesn’t want them to come to his truck. The truck is moved before police can search by ex-cop buddy and wife. George used to be a “banger” — maybe neighborhood watch really just hyper-watchful for rival gangs. What better way to keep an eye on police activity — and writing “suck-up” letters about the beat cops. Why was Osterman involved at every step? George previously worked as “muscle” or security.
Oh yeah, in our haste we often forget that GZ worked as “Muscle” on Security Jobs! Does anyone think that Bar Bouncers and security “Muscle” are tepid, mild mannered and unable/unwilling to engage combat with total strangers?
Are such people usually so weak that unarmed teens can easily push them around? Do bar bouncers and security agents shrink from fear of strangers?
Had Trayvon ever worked as a security guard or as a bar bouncer? If a teen were to be confronted by a bar bouncer, who would you give the edge to?
Like I said: Lose the fight, there wasn’t one! You’re not going to punch a bouncer in the nose, and send him reeling and stumbling 50 feet, most especially not as an untrained teen, even with some combat or street fight skills, you’d be toast!
GZ needs to revamp his stories and show how he got fired from his security/bouncer jobs, for shrinking away from physical situations. Or, show what he did to defend himself against TM’s supposed attack! Bouncers don’t lay on their backs, helplessly, while some lighter teen pummels them to within an inch of their life, without taking some rather dramatic actions!
No one would hire “Mr. Rogers” as a bar bouncer or security!
Nor would they hire “Rambo” to teach kindergarten!
“In our haste we often forget that GZ worked as “Muscle” on Security Jobs! Does anyone think that Bar Bouncers and security “Muscle” are tepid, mild mannered and unable/unwilling to engage combat with total strangers?
Are such people usually so weak that unarmed teens can easily push them around? Do bar bouncers and security agents shrink from fear of strangers?”
Excellent point. I have plenty of friends that were bouncers. Most of them are extremely mild mannered on the exterior — you can’t let your emotions get in the way and it takes a lot of patience to deal with drunk people all night — but, they’ll rip your head off and chew it up for dessert once shit hits the fan.
Yes! I don’t mean to paint bouncers as mean surly people. They are hired because of their ability to control themselves in difficult situations.
What I was focused on was the fact that the people who hire them, have also to be assured that the bouncer can handle themselves in a fight. Superior combat skills, means there’s less likelihood of things escalating out of control. And that it’s more likely that a combatant would be brought under control fairly quickly without much physical damage being needed or done.
If combatants are more evenly matched, fights go on longer, get more desperate and wilder. There’s more chance that the parties will suffer serious harm. So, you have to somehow test your prospective hire for an ability to over match most probable assailants. So, if he’s hired as “muscle” or security or a bar bouncer, it’s a pretty good bet that his employer, is sure he can overcome more than 50% of his likely adult opponents.
I mean, could you imagine hiring someone as a bouncer, who shrank if you raised your hand towards them? Hardly, so it’s a certainty that George Zimmerman was in possession of good combat skills. Which, by the way, entails making a quick recovery from first strikes! And that’s if your not prepared to defend against that possibility before hand.
So now we have GZ’s, unafraid to confront combative adults, somehow being overcome by a weak, unskilled teen! Hogwash!!!
Somewhere GZ says his wife is with his friend Mark. While he was “going shopping”. I never saw the original, I saw it quoted here about a week ago.
The last person at the ATM looks to me like MO. here is my screenshots again. Someone said doesn’t look like the same, I say look at the shape of the ears.
No need for walkie-talkies. MO goes visiting (either pre-planned or because of something he saw on his way out of the bank) and mentions he saw a maybe-Goon-gang-member approaching the estate. The timing would put him in view of Trayvon walking along Oregon Ave. Purely accidentally. He sits with Shellie while GZ goes to check it out.
No need for tracking or binoculars, let’s not make a conspiracy out of what is just a hastily invented cover-up after things go pear-shape.
GZ says a bit impatiently “just tell her I just shot somebody” because she knows the rest already. She and MO go to the scene, she removes the car.
It looks like there may have been TWO cars registered to a Zimmerman at the scene. The cops doing the tag checks mention a white Honda but we don’t hear the response re ownership, and another vehicle they say belongs to “zimmerman”. Nothing about an outsider (eg MO who lives at Lake Mary about 10-12 minutes down the road). So they go in her car which maybe MO later drives back, while she drives GZ’s , or the other way around.
The existence of walkie talkies would not be something to hide. They are not illegal. Finding one doesn’t lead to the other. Spare firearms???? Creating impression of having been walking all along (if believed the NEN call isn’t recorded) ??? (for purpose of hiding the following/stalking). Maybe just to get an unlocked vehicle blocking traffic off the road when who knows how long before the owner is let home. Maybe his dog was in the vehicle?
Purposely hiding your communications while on Neighborhood Watch so that they don’t show up on phone logs would be damning.
Again, I’m not saying with any sort of certainty that anybody used alternative forms of communication that night. I’m simply stating when Zimmerman pulled the trigger he knew his phone records could be used against him in a court of law.
Aussie, I can see a similarity in the Atm video and the picture of MO in this link. http://globalgrind.com/news/us-air-marshal-mark-osterman-took-george-zimmerman-in-trayvon-martin-details
This case would be even more decided (in the court of public opinion at least) if phone records show any sort of communications between the 3 leading up to the shooting.
That being said, the 3 would also know how damning phone logs would be in any hypothetical situation like Trayvon’s murder. So, I speculated (a few months ago) that there *could* have been alternative forms of communication used.
It would be great to hear from somebody else that used to make the Neighborhood Watch rounds with Zimmerman and Taaffe.
For those interested in witness #9, it’s not the ex-girlfriend/fiance.
gee you’re quick, haha….thanks for the link
that article doesn’t mention the molestation accusation from 6 to 16…she is a relative. Check this one out http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-witness-9-phone-calls-new-evidence-released-trayvon-case-details
Take with huge grain of salt.
Who else did she ever tell for 10 years?
He was 8 when this allegedly started. A kid himself. She says she thought some of it was ok at the time. Only later looking back on it sees it as molestation. Happens a lot, I’m sure plenty of boys try if they get the chance. A mixture of curiosity and bullying. Doesn’t make him or them criminals.
And certainly an 8 year old can’t be a “pedophile” as I’ve seen said on some sites already. Nor is an 18 year old vis a vis a 16 year old.
Let’s keep some proportion and common sense here, and not start to demonise GZ on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand.
The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism; claims of racism from the mother do nothing to prove any from him; and being a supposed molester at age 8 does not prove being a murderer at age 28. In fact it wouldn’t even prove being a rapist at age 28.
The woman may be genuine and sincere, but all this detour will achieve is gaining more supporters for GZ because of the demonising aspect. It doesn’t warrant our spending any time on this just to help that cause.
she told her parents. It may not have anything to do with what happened to Trayvon but neither does a lot of the stuff discussed here about Zimmermans character. It’s on the news, i’m getting confused as to what is relevent and what is not here lately.
” It’s on the news, i’m getting confused as to what is relevent and what is not here lately.”
Jo, will you clarify something for me? When you say you aren’t sure what’s relevant here by here do you mean on the blog or in the case?
I think we can agree that someone has to take witness 9’s allegations seriously. That someone being a different task force (real life SVU?) and investigating it as a separate issue, but not as part of this shooting case. For example, was GZ already 18 and an adult when the last of those alleged incidents occurred, and did it amount to a crime? Are there going to be others who will come forward with additional accusations because of this? But she was not a witness to the shooting and unfortunately did not even seem to be able to give a solid story or quote in which GZ said or did anything racially negative, which doesn’t help the prosecution. I’m not saying that definitely means he never said anything racial. It just says that she hasn’t given any concrete evidence of it and is rather more focused on the other issues, which can’t be directly connected to the shooting case.
This mitigation is disappointing…more later when my pressure comes down.
He said “black” he said “coon” that was on the news, too. Trayvon had gold grills and made gang signs, that was on the news. Black great-grandfather was on the news. TM attacked him and beat him senseless was on the news.
It’s not “news” it’s tabloid TV sensationalism to get more eyes on the commercials.
We already know his character is dubious, to say the least. That is not evidence in a Murder 2 case. Bad behaviour at elementary school age is not evidence ether. Sex games with a cousin (?) does not go to motive for a killing. The only character statements relevant would be about not telling the truth, to strengthen the doubt about his version of the events.
It’s muckraking, unnecessary, irrelevant. Pro-GZ people are already working to discredit this “witness” and when they succeed it will just bring more supporters to their side.
And they WILL succeed with Pro-Trayvon people trying to play the hush hush game with this Witness. I’m still not ready to respond because an outcry of abuse SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. ever. Ask Penn State!
“I’m still not ready to respond because an outcry of abuse SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. ever. Ask Penn State!”
At the very least, Zimmerman’s ability/desire to manipulate has been brought further to the forefront by Witness 9. What did Zimmerman manipulate before/after the shooting? What has he manipulated since?
For example, Zimmerman said he was crying for help but that’s not true per two independent forensics experts. So, what else is there?
Since Trayvon was killed and everybody seemed to have been looking anywhere else but outside when Zimmerman’s shot was fired — Note: I still don’t think this is true — it will be Zimmerman’s word vs. the prosecution. This is why W9’s statement is so important (even though her statement may not be admissible in court).
QETNO…i meant here at the blog
Okay, thanks! I thought that’s what you meant, but just wanted to make sure. I am with you on that then…
aussie i posted a link to evidence that was released, nothing more. Trayvon was shot and was only 17 and apparently had some issues that were dug up by pro-Zimmerman people. It sucks because he is the victim who was innocently walking home. Most of what they constitute as thug behaviour is just typical teenage behaviour, it IS muck raking, they are making issues out of nothing and blaming the victim for being shot because he might have smoked dope or had tatoos.
George Zimmerman has been accused of a crime, he shot someone and in the evidence that was released this lady made some very serious claims about his past behaviour. I did not muck rake. It is there in big bold writing. I didn’t go looking for it, it’s there.
NLME – i agree with you, as discussed here previously, Zimmerman is a manipulator and may see younger people as easier to control. I wonder how Shellie would feel, does it ring true to her (any past behaviours that sound familiar) and as we suggested with him meeting up with his ex girlfriend could she withdraw her support and maybe decide to save her ass by giving info on him..i guess that depends on if she believes it or not.
whoa..witness number 9…just saw it on TV but haven’t seen it online yet.
all of a sudden him laying on the bed with the young neighbour seems even creepier.
and i only say this because witness 9 mentioned that he got her to lay on the bed so it sounds a little familiar.
Indeed! I’m picking up on the fact that he uses excuses to trap people into his web also. Ex-fiance, my grandma’s sick, let’s just talk in a safe environment (your place). W9, there’ll be lots of people here — like a party (you’re safe ’cause so many people are going to be here).
i think this http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Motion%20to%20Stay.pdf
might be why they tried to get Lester kicked off…they thought that by putting in the motion to dismiss him he would not be able to release witness 9 statments because he is not suppose to rule on it until after the dismissal is decided…probably hoping they could then talk the next judge around.
Haha! Didn’t work.
I keep reading that Mark Osterman was at the crime scene and either had to be ejected or was simply wandering around. We know the gates were closed by 7:31pm so he couldn’t have sped up from Lake Mary and gotten in (unless he walked in). How do we know MO was at the crime scene? Does anyone know where it said this? And again, where was it that George said that Shellie was with Mark? I’m going to spend some time looking today. Also, I presume the back gate was also closed?
I have done portraits off and on for years, I love examining how faces look from different angles. That sure looks like Mark Osterman at the bank. Sitting in the car would allow the fat of his cheeks to slump and round out ever so slightly as opposed to the standing photos I’ve compared him to. The eyes are the same distance apart, the ears look exactly right, as do the nose and mouth and chin(s). He could usually wear prescription sunglasses, however the evening was overcast and raining and getting dark and he’d want his regular glasses. The frames are distinctive, so another pic of MO in these glasses would help confirm (if he wears them). They also could be reading glasses. The eyebrows do appear heavier and this remains my biggest doubt, but this could be explained by the lighting coming from above.
I hope the cameras caught the license plate, I read this was only a possibility, not a given.
It’s actually kind of funny. Mark Osterman has been the Ignored Person, the guy that was the best friend and biggest help to George, yet the MSM didn’t mention him. Now this guy at the bank, whether or not he actually is MO, has catapulted Mark’s involvement into the forefront. Get ready for your spotlight Mark, it’s your turn for 15 minutes of infamy, starting today.
If this isn’t Mark, I’d LOVE to see both of these men standing side by side. Peas in a pod.
Hi, it was Osterman who said Shellie called him and he went with her to the scene but didn’t talk “in depth” with George or the police. I can’t remember the page number in the recent dump but i think its somewhere around page 77.
Yep p 76 or 77.
The person hanging about inside the crime tape was Jonathan (W13) as one officer describes an “Asian man” being there and asked to leave; Jonathan is Filipino and the only Asian involved in this case afaik.
You won’t get a license tag from the bank vids. The atm one is side on and doesn’t show them. Of the other 4 only 1 is at an angle that would show up plates, but it is a short stretch of road, and time elapse, (the one with the parking spaces marked). So most cars pass without being visible at all. I saw only 1 actual vehicle on this, though changes in lights (esp once the road was wet) indicate many other cars passing through.
thanks Jo and Aussie, it’s so hard to keep this all straight. Too bad about the plates. I wonder whether MO had to park outside and walk in, or whether he had his car? Would depend on when he got there I suppose. It’s coincidently interesting that the bank video and this statement would be released at the same time. He definitely was there, only questions are where and when.
MO claims the call came from SZ so that would be post-shooting but only by around two minutes that she was contacted – or was it MO who GZ was calling FIRST in the bloody head photo? He’s holding a phone to his ear in the picture.
Regarding the blocking of the gates – he could have beaten the officers to the gate if he had notice, or he could have been admitted by flashing a badge (assuming air marshals have badges/credentials) or he could have parked and walked in by the same shortcut that TM used (ironic) or he could have been there ahead of the shooting. We just don’t know. We do know he was NOT at home if that’s him at the ATM.
The question is, how did the investigators KNOW to check the bank videos? I have a conspiracy theory about that but it’s pure CT.
But Osterman himself claims he was on the crime scene and apparently spoke both to officers AND to GZ when he qualified his statement to say he did not talk to GZ or the officers IN DEPTH. He doesn’t claim he had no contact – just that he didn’t chat for long. I find this significant to take note of but as of yet only fuel for speculation, not proof of much.
That the car was moved also seems significant, but not yet proof of much except bad behavior on the part of a former deputy who should know better than to encourage this sort of activity in relation to a murder investigation.. What do we know about officers who ran plates on cars? Is any of this recorded? I didn’t see it in the text messages but someone upthread said something about a white honda and a car tied to Zimmerman? I missed the source of that – please reply if anyone knows the source of this.
Okay, here is my conspiracy theory: Mark Osterman acting a mole for the prosecution, having been flipped in regards to his crime of interfering with an investigation. Obviously there is zero proof of this, but it sure would make the prosecution’s job easier. And if they had their act together it’s certainly possible, and also explains why he admitted his ATM visit.
The comment you are asking about that mentioned a Honda and a vehicle registered to Zimmerman was from police dispatch at the scene the night of 2/26 where two plate numbers were run off.
Source (2:10 mark):
i bet they have checked their bank records and there was some action at that time which is why they looked at the video..so they should know if someone was at the bank. I wonder if MO is part of (or all of) this security team that George is paying with his supporters money?
Jo, of course they did. thanks, I forget how these things can be so easily tracked once the original connection is made. They know, whether we know or not.
It appears MO has been George’s security team since this began. It would be easy to believe this relationship is continuing. Nice money all around.
It’s gotten so I just can’t find every item to show where I got it from originally.
one officer says he was despatched to nearby businesses to get their security tapes IN CASE the show something. Like something about the (originally unidentified) victim. They did have a 7-11 receipt from Trayvon but it would be the thorough and right thing to do to check both directions.
It may be quite possible the prosecution has NOT SEEN the bank videos and/or NOT SEEN who it shows or not put 2+2 together about it. They’d release them as evidence because
* it’s something they collected, like the interviews with the gunshop owner etc
* it is SAFE to release, won’t hurt the case either way
* it shuts up the baying media and bloggers (like us)
After all the clubhouse videos showed nothing, either, as far as they knew, until our tchoupi spent days analysing them. Even now they’re useless as evidence without the further work of deliberate tests to verify his results.
This blog started as a timeline analysis, and both sets of videos form a big part of that. The police did no timeline work at all; if the other investigators did we’ve not seen it.
The videos were obtained very early on, next day I think. So, just a procedural habit, not looking to prove/disprove anything. And they’ve released them, I believe, thinking them to show nothing.
Properly analysed they might be what makes or breaks the case, because they are recorded evidence of a deliberate chase. EVIDENCE, not just a reasonable doubt, that it did not happen as GZ says it did, from the very first moment.
Does anyone remeber when Tracy Martin had said that one of the detectives told him a different version of events? The investigator told Mr.Martin that Trayvon approached gz vechicle and said “why are you following me?” And gz said “I’m not following you.” Then minutes later gz got out of his car to check a street sign. Trayvon approached gz from behind a building and said “what’s your problem homie?” Where the hell did this story come from? I didn’t hear gz mention this in his renactment or in the account he gave to the police.
That seems like Tracy Martin having a bad recollection of how he was told about the events, and little more, or else had a police source who was hearing things second hand. Most of the basic elements to this story are intact, but the order is scrambled.
Obviously you can concoct sinister and convoluted versions of what this means, but I’m not sure I’d take to too far. Looks like maybe Barnes tried to keep Tracy up to date on the investigation but he was not part of the inner circle of investigators. Serino says Barns (sp?) was friendly to Tracy and asked Serino for Tracy’s number but eventually got the number by other means.
FWIW, Barnes/barns is black, and these events were happening when public interest was ramping up about possible racial bias both from GZ and the SPD as being the reason for a lack of arrest and charges being filed. As it turns out, the investigation was ongoing but had run into a wall somewhat regarding proving GZ’s story of the physical altercation itself is false because of the lack of a good witness to the start of the altercation.
Per aussie’s reply to my original post of the news today regarding Witness 9 (comment #47)
“Let’s keep some proportion and common sense here, and not start to demonise GZ on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand.
The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism”
I actually quite agree with Aussie’s comments. These new allegations in an of themselves have nothing to do with the night of the shooting. Believing that they do is akin to using non-relevant rumors about TM to support his alleged first attack of GZ. I suggest that we do not discuss the sordid details.
However, I do want to comment on her characterization of GZ as being a talker/charmer and being different with certain people. His ex also said the same thing. This is consistent with the vast majority of the interviews with neighbors and co-workers not turning up any type of negative comments about him. With people he considers peers, the community, potential employers and authority (i.e., SPD) he can put on a good face.
What’s interesting is probably his belief that he can smooth talk his way out of things (just doesn’t do it very well). Examples of his uses of “charm”:
1) Gives statements freely to SPD right after the shooting without a lawyer, and sounds convincing at first glance.
2) Talked of suicide to his ex, but she believes its about garnering sympathy
3) The night he stalked his ex outside her house and she calls him on it, he laughs it off and says he just wanted to talk about his sick grandmother (wants more sympathy)
4) According to bullied co-worker, GZ’s teasing was done to put himself in a better position with the work clique.
5) The relative witness 9 describes him of being charming with everyone but is different with her.
6) Tries to apologize/answer TM’s mother’s questions on the stand at the first bond hearing, thinking his apologies might win him points.
7) Emails to Bill Lee (former/fired Police Chief) thanking him profusely.
8) Insistence on talking to the judge directly but not be cross-examined by the prosecutor at the 2nd bond hearing, thinking he might charm Lester into believing whatever reasons he might give for hiding money. Charm Lester? What was he thinking?
I agree with NLME about the manipulation by Zimmerman and I also agree that your bulleted points are excellent analysis. I have noted most of those points as things that stuck out as oddities as well.
The part I disagree with is this:
“on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand. The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism”
To me, this is inaccurate and it also misses the point that:
1) W9’s initial call was prior to the hype and she came forward because she knew George Zimmerman and his whole family was racist to encourage the SPD to not just take a superficial look into the matters.
2) W9’s statement confirms the ex-fiance’s statement that the mother exhibits racist views (marry white to better status said by ex-fiance, W9 had to shield her black friend from racial abuse when Zimmerman’s mother proudly proclaimed she was a racist who didn’t like Obama BECAUSE HE IS BLACK).
3) W9 is a family insider and told her story long before Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.
4) The final act against her per W9’s account occurred when Zimmerman was 18 and she was a minor which, again, shows his lack of respect for the law (which presumably prohibits such activity).
It isn’t demonizing when it is State law that requires the information to be made public.
According to gzlegalcase.com, they are already planning to file reciprocal discovery on W9. Defense confirms this is a cousin of George Zimmerman.
Can’t wait to see yet another “reciprocal injunction” type excuse from Zimmerman. Wonder if the defense team will be sure to indicate that W9 drew blood or some crap and say it was in self defense that he tricked her into coming to his party in order to rape her when she was 16 and he was 18.
I’m sure it’ll be another round of “everyone’s a liar, but George.” While I don’t think anything to do with the sexual abuse allegation can come into trial, can’t they use it to discredit THE FAMILY when they say no one in the family is a racist? The mother showing bias is corroborated by the ex-fiance’s statement.
I have commented above in the Comment #47 thread about the “relevance” of W9’s statements. Don’t get me wrong, I actually believe she sounds very genuine and her allegations regarding the abuse should be investigated, just not as part of this case.
Regarding her statements about what the family is “like”, it may be interesting to the public but not the court of law. If that were the case, then I feel very sorry for every child in the US born to a racist family and cannot escape the association no matter what. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel sorry for GZ. But how wrong does it feel to hear “I know how they are, they’re all like that….” without being able to give a definitive scenario. It just will not hold up in court, I’m sorry to say. It is also akin to the other sides’ argument about AA teenagers “I know how they are, they’re all like that….” You wouldn’t support that kind of statement in that context right?
Finally, the 911 calls were released on March 19 (see link below) and it was all over the media. That was the day she called in, if I understand correctly that the statement released today was recorded on March 20. In that recording, they asked her if she had called the day before (she said yes) and was then invited to come in the following day to make that statement. So yes, she was responding to the hype. Unfortunately, she can’t seem to substantiate a specific racial act by GZ since she said she blocked out much of her memories. The defense will have a field day with her if she goes on the stand with that.
She called SPD 2 days after the shooting, fyi.
I think looking at a cold-blooded murder, a history of childhood sexual abuse is relevant in so many ways. Trayvon’s murder did not happen in a vacuum. There was a lead up and a build up to his murder and the depraved indifference the confessed murder displayed with others prior to 2.26 goes a long way in explaining why he was so aggressive with Trayvon. He has been victimizing others for a long time and that IS important and as the prosecution has said, if he tries to play the Saint George game, Witness 9, a brave survivor who should not have her story discounted, will be there to rebutt it.
This all goes to the psychological profile of this murderer.
When I was in college, there was a guy I remember being a cashier at a convenience store. Well, no one knew, but he was a nut, keeping a diary about his plan to kill a girl. He had picked out a victim and everything. Well, he was out in the country and his car broke down, a lady picked him up to give him a ride, and he stabbed her and killed her. They caught him as he was walking away from the scene. They surmised that something about this lady that picked him up, reminded him of the girl he was planning to kill. That aspect of it reminds me of George Zimmerman. He found someone that fit the profile of someone he was planning on dispensing justice to, and he hunted him down and killed him, in a delusional fantasy. Then he searched the body, found nothing but ice tea in the bag whic he threw to the side. Then he immediately had to start crafting his cover story.
Thank you Question everything trust no one. I stand correct about the timing of Witness 9’s first call.
As qetno said, she called in her tip 2 days after the killing. It could have been on the news locally, but not nationally. She could have learned of the killing in a family social as well.
Again, she did not WANT to come forward and seems to only have gotten courage enough after superficial investigations weren’t productive.
I don’t think the defense will touch W9 with a 10 foot pole. As much evidence as there is that Zimmerman profiled Martin because of the color of his skin, no hate crime charges have been filed…yet. Meaning, there’s no reason for the defense to bring up her charges of racism within the Zimmerman family…yet.
This is about a grown man with a gun unlawfully chasing down an unarmed teenager returning home from the convenience store, inexcusably murdering the kid during a scuffle, and then not being able to explain the event’s happenings with any sort of consistency or accuracy.
O’Mara was just on Piers Morgan using Zimmerman supporter talking points again. He just made the false statement that she only called one day before the recording. Ummm, nope, try again. She didn’t even give her name or contact info to the SPD officer. The prosecution probably had to get the phone records that came into the station to determine who called the time of her call in order to contact her.
Oh, and O’Mara says GZ is denying this abuse. Well, duh.
Just want to clarify, she did call back on the 19th. I thought they would have attempted to contact her, not the other way around. Her first call was February 28. She probably called back once she realized George was going to get away with something terrible.
The state (big Bernie D) has already said they will only use W9 as a rebuttal witness. I could be wrong, but I take this to mean the State will only introduce W9 if O’Mara tries to introduce “Zimmerman was an alter boy” or fake “Zimmerman put out flyers to protest the other Sanford PD coverup of the black homeless guy and his mother’s a witness” type evidence to paint George Zimmerman as a person of good character.
I actually hope the case doesn’t devolve into anything as chitty as that, but I think the defense is desperate so it might.
“I actually hope the case doesn’t devolve into anything as chitty as that, but I think the defense is desperate so it might.”
If the defense dissolves too far, Americans could start (further) questioning gun rights. The NRA doesn’t want this. In fact, I’m pretty sure the NRA would rather see a quick/low key (impossible now) conviction resulting in “one bad apple” getting locked up for a bit.
Should Zimmerman somehow walk, there are going to be a ton of people demanding that somebody like he never be able to own (or at least conceal) a weapon again. I’m talking, for example, inclusion of any/all mental disorders (yes, even ADHD) and medical records during the licensing process.
O’Mara may get to pick and choose what he tells the media, but what is sunshined is not under his control. As you correctly stated, W9’s coming forward about Zimmerman’s character and his family’s was a mere 2 days after the murder.
Think about it. O’Mara introduced already recanted “evidence” at the last hearing regarding W6. I guess that’s his job. Seems sleazy to put forth a story when you KNOW the evidence is no longer evidence!
“Should Zimmerman somehow walk, there are going to be a ton of people demanding that somebody like he never be able to own (or at least conceal) a weapon again. I’m talking, for example, inclusion of any/all mental disorders (yes, even ADHD) and medical records during the licensing process.”
I think ADHD falls under behavioral disorders rather than mental disorders, but I agree, and I do think it’s smart to look at someone’s medical history in relation to owning, but especially concealed carrying of a firearm. I actually have no problem with people wanting to own guns. It just freaks me out the kind of people that are allowed to have guns then proceed to concealed carry.
That could be right. I called ADHD a mental disorder out of habit.
I’ve never cited Yahoo Answers before — is doing so better or worse than sourcing Wikipedia? — but, here’s an entry…
It’s referred to as a behavioral disorder. At the CDC web site, it states “neurobehavioral” meaning the way the brain affects emotion, behavior, and learning.
I just googled ADHD. The first non paid result is from the NIMH. The page’s description in the search result mentions ADHD is a mental disorder.
Six of one and a half dozen of the other? Not sure.
I think behavior disorders fall under a class of mental illness. IIRC. So, I guess we are both correct, lol.
You beat me to it!
It looks like six of one and a half dozen of the other.
I google everything. EVERYTHING, I tell you, lol. I typically hate being wrong, and if I am wrong, I like to be the first to correct myself.
(If you want to check it out.) Info on ADHD in adults:
Anyway, time for a 5 hour nap! 🙂
Is there anywhere in there to enable a preview feature for comments so one can somewhat see what one’s comment is going to look like before one submits it?
I’ll email you a screenshot later tonight of my WordPress comment moderation options…some of the page is like French.
Maybe you’ll see something that should be checked/unchecked. Otherwise, if the comments keep acting up, we’ll have to revert back to what “worked” previously.
Dear BccList Commenters (so formal, eh?):
I *think* I figured out the issue with comments not showing up in the right area.
Actually, I didn’t figure anything out and there wasn’t a true fix. I just deleted a bunch of comments — most of these comments were suggestions on possible ways to fix the comment problem — and none of them included important info.
Please let me know if the comments continue to act weird.
good job NLME, seems to be working again!!!
Still not getting posts : ((((((
@Lonnie @comment 27 –
“The tan bag, presumably empty, could just as easily have been blown north by the wind. So I wouldn’t place much faith in it as a marker. Obviously, for the bag to wind up this far from the store, TM had to have carried something in it. He would not have simply carried an empty bag along if he’d removed it’s contents. In fact, when he ran, he might have lost his grip on the bag, or it’s contents spilled on the ground, forcing him to come back north to get it.”
The problem for me is I can’t think of any reason to explain how the bag and the can become detached. The can was in the bag when Trayvon Martin left the store, right? How did the can end up in Trayvon Martin’s hoodie pocket and the bag discarded on the ground? If someone wanted to free up their hands, wouldn’t they put both the bag and its contents in the pocket? Why ewould the separation of the can and the bag occur at that location (in his own back yard) since he presumably continued to carry the can in the bag nearly 1.8 miles? Remember, George Zimmerman said on the recorded police dispatch call “he’s got something in his hands.”
Why was there blood on the Skittles that were originally in Trayvon Martin’s pocket? Who’s blood was it? Was there blood or other DNA on the 7-11 bag that Trayvon Martin was carrying his Arizona juice can in? Did anybody check?
Admittedly, it crossed my mind that the 7-11 bag blew away to the location found. But, like I said, I can’t think of any scenario where the breeze of any wind would detach a can from its bag under the slight wind/weather conditions of that night.
Oh yeah, almost forgot.. If George Zimmerman frisked Trayvon Martin and got blood on the Skittles when he reached in his pocket and then stuffed the Arizona can into Trayvon Martin’s pockets, Zimmerman has yet again tainted the evidence. The prosecution needs to find out why this was done if he did it and also release the results of the tests for blood and dna on the Skittles and 7-11 bag.
How the can of tea and 7-11 bag became separated with tea ending up in Trayvon’s pocket has been a ‘bone of contention’ for me ever since the first evidence dump with the bag laying in the grass, and EMT reports having removed the can before lifting his hoodie to place monitor leads on him.
I’ve posted previously that I think during GZs attempt to detain Trayvon:
1) he either swung and struck GZ in the nose with it, it dropped and he was able to recover the tea and place in his pocket.
2) it was knocked/snatched from his hand by GZ when he grabbed Trayvon and afterwards, during the ‘frisk’, he saw the can an placed in his pocket. Remember GZ making statement that he thought Trayvon had something hard in his hand while being beaten nearly to death, to explain his spreading Trayvon’s hands apart. Which not sure why that added blurb, except to explain away DNA he would’ve left, otherwise, the can couldn’t have been the ‘hard’ object, since it was later found in hoodie pocket, not to mention it would’ve been damaged in the attack.
the was talk of an argument and loud voices so they may have been scuffling prior to the final wrestle on the grass. If George was trying to restrain Trayvon maybe the bag was dropped at some stage, and he may have just quickly picked up the drink before the conflict started again.
Indeed, Jo –
The scuffle could have caused the bag to drop, but why why would the bag’s contents mysteriously end up in Trayvon Martin’s hoodie pocket?
When you’re in a scuffle, you don’t pick stuff up unless the scuffle is over.
it’s interesting that George doesn’t seem to have many friends…he has casual aquaintances who think he is wonderful but none of them are close to him. The one close friend who has been to his house 50 times is the guy who was a deputy and works for homeland security and teaches him how to use a gun. It’s like the teacher and the student.
sorry i put the above comment in the wrong place, i wasn’t responding to anyone, it should have been a new post.
Lots of good questions raised here [and I’ve read ahead a bit so don’t go thinking I’m all that smart. ] But, tchoupi points out below that there wasn’t much wind (he’s done a weather analysis which I read/viewed). The graph/plot of the rain seems to say that these events took place under heavy rain conditions??? My guess is that GZ should have been running back to his truck, not walking.
Of course the bag would be saturated with water, making it hard to move, and a paramedic has owned up to putting the can back in TM’s hoodie pouch.
So, the only real mystery is how did the can come out of the bag? I don’t see him carrying a bag for .7 miles, only to discard it close to the house.
I can think that the bag caught water and that would be why he decided to dump it. You don’t want to bring a dripping bag into the house if you don’t have to.
I’ll do without the “scuffle” however, there’s no good evidence of it at all!
All we have is GZ’s testimony of it, and we know that he is prone to make things up to serve himself. But, young, mild manner, non-violent teens aren’t likely to attack an adult physically at all! Old, slightly built adults have no fears of challenging children and teens, who do not openly exhibit threatening behavior. While teens and children meet such challenges with subservient compliance! Certainly a teen who uses polite language as “Please and Thank You”, with store clerks, isn’t likely to be one to exhibit the kind of behavior that would presage a proclivity to attack adults. In short, Trayvon is no gang banger, no thuggish child, no bully, no braggart and does not bluster!
While GZ on the other hand, has shown that he’s ready, willing and able to mount a physically combative and offensive assault on a stranger, who he perceives as offending a friend of his. In other words, he has no fear of being physically combative with strangers, even without any way to assess their combat skills. He is able and willing to engage a person who is approximately his equal in age and size (the policeman), in fisticuffs!
While TM has no combat skills at all! None demonstrated or learned of anywhere in the narratives about him.
So, what this adds up to — in light of TM not having any trace on hands that supposedly contacted GZ with such force that his nose was broken — is that any such claim is a lie! If any contact was made between the two, it would have been GZ attempting to assert his authority! Not Trayvon defending himself! TM would only resort to using words, to attempt to delay or fend off any attack. “Why are you following me for?” Was a pleading, not a challenge! A hope against hope that there might be an answer, other than the obvious one, that GZ was this bigger older and threatening ill intended stranger.
yep Trayvon was a good kid, but George could have tried to grab his top or wrist to detain him, trayvon breaks away, or tries too. That’s a scuffle right there. It did not happen the way Zimmerman said, that is for sure, so it’s possible the witnesses that heard arguing and saw figures were correct…hell maybe zimmerman tried to grab the bag to check for stolen goods..who knows.
I’ve read elsewhere that there is a possibility of more than one struggle which could account for the reasons why the items are seperated. Could it be that GZ attempted to restrain Trayvon at some point and he got away? I believe that would make GZ angry enough to shoot when he caught up to him a second time. It would also make sense if you add the movement described by some witnesses. Is it possible that the two struggles happened not very far from one another? GZ attempts a grab and hold, Trayvon escapes the hold and picks up the can (maybe?) (if it fell and came out of its bag), a few feet later GZ attempts the grab and hold again? He’d probably be even more pissed the second time around and even more convinced that Trayvon is a criminal. He would wanna make sure Trayvon didn’t get away again since he now sees Trayvon is capable of it. I was thinking he could have drawn his weapon at that time…. But I’ve always believed that he had his weapon out way before then… Even before he got out if his car.
Zimmerman’s credentials have been “hiding in plain sight” from us:
“He is a combat ready professional barroom bouncer and experienced
security “muscle” man. Meaning that he was hired and paid for his
strength and ability to engage in combat with all manner of abusive
adult strangers of varying martial skills.”
Does anyone think he’d be hired in that capacity, if it was believed, that a unarmed, underweight teenager could so overcome him, that he could not even begin to mount a defense?
Does anyone think he’d even apply for such a job, if he believed or knew that he could not effectively respond to an attack by a youth?
Did he get fired for being too meek and unable to physically engage when required?
Or did he get fired for physically engaging when not required or over doing it with his response?
Doesn’t this tell us that this man is confident of his abilities to engage adult members of the general public in combat? If so, then why is he trying to portray himself as “milquetoast” mild? Far too gentle a person to respond in kind to an assault on his person? As a person with so few martial options, that his gun is his only possible defense?
Who here would bet on an untrained teenager, in a fight with an experienced professional bar bouncer? If so, please explain this thinking.
The can of tea may have fallen out of the bag when Trayvon ran down the back entrance of the dogwalk. Assuming this happened, he stopped and realized it had fallen out so he went back to pick it up. Dee Dee says in her interview that Trayvon went back and it was then he told her the man (creep) was behind him and following him again.
In Florida, you can be charged as an adult at almost any age, Florida is one of 18 states that allow this. In fact the DA in this case Angela Corey is involved in another case, of 12 year old Cristian Fernandez. So either 17 or 18 it is possible if charges were filed GZ could be charged as an adult.
@John W, I’m not sure why you bring up the Florida statutes in response to my comment on the can of iced tea. Was you comment mistakenly posted to me?
What is also strange is that GZ never mentions a cold can or that he felt something hard on his stomach whileTrayvon was on his stomach per his statement. They found the can in his front pocket of the hoodie, when they tried CPR.
Exactly! But how did it get there for them to find? The pro-zimmerman’s say Trayvon Martin stuffed his pockets to prepare for attacking zimmerman. I find it hard to believe he would discard the bag instead of stuffing both the bag and its contents into the hoodie pocket. I can’t see detaching a bag from its contents to prepare for a fight. I can see frisking/searching somebody and quickly discarding “irrelevant” 7-11 bags.
I don’t know why TM would discard the bag instead of shoving both in his pocket, but I did think he might have done that in preparation to run and/or fight if need be. I’m thinking in terms of DeeDee’s statement, I guess, where he is being followed; I suppose I picture TM seeing this weird ass dude that’s just been following him all over the damn place, so he gets nervous then starts to walk away from GZ as GZ starts coming in the same direction then possibly discards the bag and stuffs the can in his sweatshirt just before asking GZ what’s going on thinking if this dude doesn’t give me a straight answer then I’m going to need to run or fight. Maybe the bag was wet and didn’t want to put the wet bag in his shirt with other items.
@ question everything trust no one [below]
I don’t think that Trayvon would fail to omit from his talk with DeeDee, that he was prepared to fight, or that he believed that to be an option. People, especially kids who can and do fight, are not shy about broadcasting their prowess. Think about it, he’s trying to impress his girlfriend that he has enough courage not to run, but he won’t tell her that he thinks fighting is an option he has?
That he does run shows he’s in fear! You don’t plan to fight with strangers you fear, especially if you’re not a fighter. We don’t have a series of schoolyard fights that TM is constantly involved in. Which is usually the case with kids who believe that they can settle differences with fighting.
So, the evidence all points the other way, towards GZ dominating!
In that light, GZ might be concerned about what the bag might contain, and want to examine it. If so, he takes the bag away and dumps the contents, while holding onto TM so he can’t run. When TM attempts to reach for the bag, GZ thinks he’s trying to pull away and yanks him back by the clothes really hard. This causes TM to collide with GZ and they both go down with TM on top. John tries to embellish this as MMA fighting. But once John exits the scene, GZ is angry at being knocked down, he stands up and draws his weapon while TM is getting up off the ground. TM sees the weapon and begins screaming for help, GZ panics and fires!
GZ has a lot to panic about, if TM lives, he tells a story that has GZ following and threatening with a firearm. That, as GZ well knows, portends a few years in jail. While SYG offers him a way out of this terrible situation, all it requires is that he be attacked first! But, it doesn’t kick in unless he pulls the trigger and TM doesn’t survive to counter his story!
I wouldn’t bet against him having discussed such hypotheses with FT and MO over those months as NW Captain. So, he knows that having impulsively drawn his gun, puts him in danger of facing severe criminal charges if TM survives. TM’s death is his only way out of this mess he created so foolishly.
So, that’s the take I’m getting.
Not much wind during the events. Instead, there was enough rain to load the bag and pin it to the ground pretty quickly (assuming the bag wasn’t wet yet from the rain it accumulated from the 7-11).
Check the weather: http://i.imgur.com/ynw8Mh.png
Right. The bag probably didn’t move much, but its travels are anything but conclusive. How does the Arizona can get out of the bag and into Trayvon Martin’s pocket for the SPD to find? Trayvon Martin left the 7-11 with the can in a bag and George Zimmerman said “he’s got something in his hands” (presumably what’s in his hands is a bag with the contents purchased from the 7-11) although George Zimmerman implies otherwise.
My theory from the previous evidence dump was that Trayvon swung the bag, with the tea can in it, at GZ. The can may have torn through the bag (if it has a hole in it). During the break in the arguement, Trayvon put the can, (and his earphones?), back in his pockets.
that’s also my theory!
My original theory was that TM ditched carrying it in the bag in case he had to run again or in case he needed to fight.
TM may have used the empty bag to keep he cell phone dry against the rain. I wonder if there was a receipt in the bag…. for skittles and a sugary drink?
What’s interesting to me about the tan bag / Arizona Ice Tea brand drink is that in order to walk so far with it, TM very likely would carry it in his hand or in the hoodie pocket and not in the bag since the handle of the bag cuts into your hand after a while. And when GZ describes TM passing his car, he says he’s got something in his waistband, as though it were suspicious behavior. Trayvon was likely holding on to the can so he could walk fast without it banging into his body and falling out or annoying him.
IMO GZ describes a punch to the nose that likely happened 40-50 feet south of the T, that “knocked him backwards into the grass/ at that point” etc – these are the first three things he said about the punch:
“I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
“as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
“and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”
But north of there is the tan bag and the lighted keychain flashlight. These seem to say there was some activity elsewhere, but what? We can’t really know, but I put almost NO store in George’s version.
TM seems to have spoken first in both GZ and DeeDee’s memories, but getting a flashlight shined in your direction might have prompted the response from TM.
GZ is a proven accomplished liar!
GZ is also a certified person with better than average combat skills, as evidence by his being hired to do combat when needed, with strangers of uncertain skills. His employer would only hire him, if he could be assured that GZ possessed the capacity to overcome and/or handle himself in most physical encounters! A bar owner would know that you can’t always count on the aggressor to be drunk and disadvantaged. He would want to be assured that GZ could reasonably handle himself under a wide range of possible assaults. Apparently GZ succeeded at this several times for several employers. If anything, he was too aggressive, not less!
So, then, this is the combat ready and capable adult male, who is claiming to have been so totally disabled, by an attack waged by a young, not-combat-ready male with no training. And yet, GZ says he was powerless to prevent the attack from escalating to a point where he feared for his life!
Pure Hogwash!!! Mild mannered youths with no combat training of any kind and no fight experience, will not be able to bring adult male bar bouncers and/or “security muscle men” to within an inch of their lives! Anyone who believes such has already taken leave of their senses! GZ is, therefore, certified as “combat ready”.
Then add in the lack of GZ trace on TM’s hands and you must realize that GZ’s story of being attacked is purest hocum! Or, do they really hire “Mary Poppins” types for bar bouncers? Hahaha.
Of course, this little tidbit of evidence has been hiding from us in plain sight, behind the phrases used to describe it. It didn’t occur to me, until I suddenly came to examine what would go into becoming a bar bouncer or “security muscle”. That’s when you realize there are “gate keepers” to such employment. Those “gate keepers” have to be convinced that the person to be hired can, in fact, handle themselves, in a wide variety of physical altercations that might present.
If you’re prospective employer, should think of you as too soft to handle yourself, and/or able to quickly suppress physical disturbances with in kind action, you will not be hired in that capacity! You not only need combat skill, but you need nerve and self confidence in the face of trouble. Bouncers are strictly screened for those qualities! So that even if a weakling passes, he’s still more of a match for the average citizen.
GZ is peddling pure rubbish, hardly a wonder that MOM doesn’t want to go before a jury! But the SP will, far from offering a plea, go for a jury, because that holds the possibility that they’ll get 1st degree!
On top of the other lies and false materials the defense is submitting, I don’t think they’ll get past GZ’s combat qualification evidence.
Omg, I had not thought of that Lonnie. Excellent points and you are so right, Zimmerman was no weakling. He is a chameleon who changes his colors when it is convenient.
You and me both, as well as plenty of other people, have been looking at this for months and it’s been “hiding in plain sight” from us all!
I get the feeling that if this was part of the main discussion back before the bond hearing, GZ would probably never have gotten any bail at all.
It’s simply ludicrous to think that anyone who would be hired as a bouncer, would be so weak and defenseless, as not to be able to handle a teen.
I remember speaking with a bar owner, his idea was that if you didn’t get a bouncer who was really a top flight fighter, you opened yourself up to lawsuits, since the longer it takes to gain control of a situation, the worse things get. Worse yet is, if the bouncer and fighter are evenly matched, the level of desperation rises, meaning they’re both at risk of doing some pretty serious things to one another. The owner will be responsible for that damage!
So they look for Navy Seals if possible, professional boxers, wrestlers and other highly skilled combatants like ex police, military and special forces people. So GZ is not in the company of tepid people, nor can he be one himself and still get the job.
Actually it has been pointed out at least twice in my speculations that GZ is the bouncer nick-named “Tugboat”. Would be interesting to know what that name refers to. Is he just big and heavy and grabs a person and pulls them to the exit? Had he grabbed TM and pulled him to the top of the T? I still wonder if somehow he was going to bring TM to his make believe “Squad Car” out in the light, for the cops to see the fish he had caught.
Just as you say, I too remember that at several times, we’ve nearly all mentioned that GZ held a job as a bouncer, but when we did, we weren’t applying as evidence of combat readiness and skills, or with any attention to how obtaining such a job, would tend to certify them. Hence the speculation about “the fight” and “who threw the first punch” persisted and continued. Even while we felt TM’s lack of skills and mild demeanor was an indication that he would not act that way. But, using these things to point out that GZ was a rouge actor.
Had these jobs been inspected for their ability to certify that GZ was combat ready, etc., the idea that TM might have fought with GZ becomes absurd!
The idea that TM could have been effective in any martial contest, is relegated to fantasy land.
But, my point is that the real nature of the beast, was hiding in plain sight behind the job titles, when the truth was in the job descriptions. You hear that he was a bouncer who mistreated a woman, you say “sure, bouncers can over reach and GZ probably did!” Then you move on, without making the connection that GZ had to have and display combat skills to get the job. Less, apply that directly to his claims about his own helplessness, when assaulted by a lightweight youth with no fight training at all.
We all had the same information, but we took it in the least effective direction.
You bring up a very compelling point! I would agree with you re: “hiding in plain sight”. The fact GZ possibly has had the very same combat, martial arts training, that they claimed Trayvon had after John’s bogus claim of MMA style punches.
Funny, GZ doesn’t strike me as a nimble ninja. He was however a lot heavier and more intimidating back in his bouncer days. Couple that with his ego, and you have a formula for a guy who’s willing to confront….
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to imbue GZ with ninja or navy seals level skills. They would, of course, help a bouncer get work, but that level of skill isn’t necessary. What is needed is size, since that is intimidating enough to quench most battles before they even get started. But also in large measure you need confidence! Since by exuding confidence you intimidate and thereby suppress many urges to get physical. Being a bouncer is more about keeping things as civil as possible first and foremost. Bouncers who over react get fired, because that puts the establishment at risk of law suit, needlessly.
But, if you’re going to accept a job that portends you’ll have no choice at times, but to engage in physical actions, you’ll want to be confident that your abilities are at least a match to the average opponent you expect to encounter.
That’s where your confidence comes from, knowing that you’ll very likely be able to handle whatever trouble appears.
So, GZ has and idea that most people will not overcome him easily, and these people are most likely going to be adults, and many of them of equal size weight, height and age as himself, or close to it.
Meaning that when he is following a teenager, he’s going to feel overly confident, as he should, since he’s able to match adults, he has no reason to fear teens. Most especially teens who do not display discipline and coordination in their movements, that a martially trained teenager would.
Hang in front of a karate school for a while, and you’ll be able to tell very easily those who’ve had training from those who haven’t. They carry themselves differently.
Now look at the reenactment video of GZ waving his hands at the point just after the claimed nose punch, as he tries to explain how he moved south.
Look at his stance. Do you see it? Look at the smoothness of the motions as he “swats flies”, and look at the body balance as he steps along while doing it. Do you see the coordination? Do you see the forcefulness in the motions of his arms and hands? Now try to picture TM trying to assault him while GZ is doing that. The picture doesn’t fit! TM would be toast if he tried, not that he would even be thinking of it.
Hi Lonnie, I wasn’t making fun of your analysis with the ninja comment, just trying to make a light joke. Per the re-enactment, I don’t actually see anything that tells me how good of a fighter he’d be, nor do we have enough footage/knowledge of TM to know how he’d be in a fight either. You are right in that a bouncer has to have physical confidence, and per his ex-coworker he had a tendency to just flip sometimes. However, when someone is hyped up on neurochemicals due to the fight or flight response, anything is possible and it’s absolutely plausible that TM had the better of GZ for some part of the fight at least. I have always believed that TM fought long enough to keep a crazy guy down and only when he started letting up, he sat back never seeing the gun until GZ fumbled for it, pulled it out and shot. That would be of course if the story of his gun being in the holster the whole time were true.
To be sure, it is difficult, if not impossible to prove, what a person can or cannot do. Which is why a “jury of peers” is the final finder of facts! At some point we humans have to turn off the computers, put away the calculators and other machines, put our chins in our palms, close our eyes and go hmmm… now let’s see! Because many things that make sense to computers and machines, don’t make any sense to us humans.
Now, tell a jury about how a person, generally qualified to be hired as a bar bouncer, as security muscle and such. Then show them what kind of life TM led and what kind of fights, if any, he’d have experienced. Pretty much as I’ve tried to do in some detail. Then let them use that information to weigh the likelihood of GZ’s conduct, if he had actually been assaulted by a blow to the nose! A computer cannot assess that because, a computer can’t be punched in it’s nose! Even while a human, who has never been punched in the nose, can use the pain of a strained ankle as a gauge, to attempt to quantify just how helpless pain should render someone, who believed the situation they’re in was life threatening.
Yeah! You’re gonna say “What??? He just reels along for fifty feet, stumbling in confusion? Allowing his deadly and frightening assailant free reign? And that assailant is going to simply stand back an not press the attack to his best advantage, going up against a bigger, older and heavier opponent as he was?
Excuse me if I say this sounds more like they were dancing Swan Lake, than two people locked some frightening and potentially deadly life and death struggle. I mean, just picture yourself on a jury, musing about some 168 lb 17 yo straddling a 200 + lb 28 yo adult male bar bouncer, and that bouncer doing nothing at all to dislodge him or able to defend himself at all. So that, it comes to pass that the only resistance the barroom bouncer can mount is to resort to using a fire arm? Gee, did he carry a firearm in those bars? Do bar’s issue firearms to their bouncers? I mean, shouldn’t they? If they expect bouncers to confront people more able than 17 year old males.
So the story of the fight is not going to make very good sense to the jurors! And that’s before they add in the capacity the defendant has to lie to the public, the judge and the court. So it will be the facts that can be established against the likelihood of the story GZ will tell. If and when the facts don’t support the defense narrative, the jurors will have no choice but to go with the facts. George Zimmerman is TOAST!!!
The only real question is how many more people will he take down with him?
Thank you… And what’s even worse for GZ’s lie is, an important component in becoming a bouncer is the level of confidence in your combat skills you display. Obviously, a person who isn’t confident of their abilities to handle a fight, isn’t going to be hired, since that portends unwanted overreacting.
In the meantime, Trayvon has no experience with fighting, there’s no evidence that he has engaged his peers in fights, less, attempted to bring an adult to heel. So, how could he have any confidence at all, that any blow he might strike, would not bring swift, severe and irresistible repudiation? You don’t throw a punch at someone, without good reason to hope that your punch is going to effectively intimidate your opponent. TM has no way to know, how or where to strike any such blow. The only view he’d have is of movies, where his first strike would initiate a battle, he’s unprepared to wage.
While he can’t even guess that a nose strike is going to disable his opponent, he has, from movies, to believe that GZ will then move to thrash him soundly. Thus GZ’s size, weight and age advantage has to be enormously intimidating to TM. Which is why males without combat skills and/or knowledge, point to the size difference of opponents, because they don’t understand how such differences are to be overcome.
So, TM’s lack of confidence in his untested martial skills, makes it extremely unlikely that he even thought of physical actions as an option.
GZ is simply playing on the media fed idea that all young black males are combat ready, because they live in a violent world. But that sort of “violent world” is actually absent TM’s life story! Not so for GZ’s life story, since he is actually holding himself out to be hired for his ability to do combat. Which makes him a professional combatant.
Now, go back and look at the absurd story he weaves! Attributing unaccustomed language to TM, and a combat confidence that has no reason for it’s existence. All while he is in possession of these same characteristics himself.
Why would TM reach for his gun? Has TM any reason to believe he knows how to operate it? For example, does he realize guns have safeties on them?
How will he know that the gun is actually loaded, or otherwise ready for use?
In fact, he’d be completely mystified by it, and frightened of it’s owner to boot!
All of which is why the evidence bears out that TM never put his hands on GZ, it’s just to high a hurdle to overcome for the many reasons I’ve enumerated. All TM can manage is a pleading “why are you following me for?” temporizing! Hoping against hope that the answer to that question is not a sinister one.
Meanwhile GZ has all the reason in the world to be confident. Not just of his combat skills, but of his abilities to muster support for whatever defense he contrives. He knows the police who will be there to investigate, he knows the law, he knows something of police procedure, and he has his father a former magistrate, and he has the Osterman Resource! Not a bad start for a guy who has tracks to cover up.
willisnewton says: “TM very likely would carry it in his hand or in the hoodie pocket and not in the bag since the handle of the bag cuts into your hand after a while.”
So glad you bring up the point about the ‘bag cuts into your hand”. I’ve often wondered if that’s what could’ve caused the tiny cut on Trayvon’s finger. I don’t recall the ME reporting how new/old the cut was.
Those bags they give out are way too long for a single large can of iced tea in the bottom. As you walk it keeps swinging up against you and probably keeps hitting against your thighs or knees. Very uncomfortable and it’s hard to control the swinging. What people attempt to do is, wrap the excess length of the bag, from the handles, around the palm, in an attempt to shorten the bag and stop it from swinging. But this, eventually impedes circulation in the hand, so this only works for a short time.
After a few minutes of such discomfort, one is looking for a better way to carry the load, and usually this means putting the can, wrapped in it’s bag, in a pocket if possible. I know because I’ve often carried supermarket type bags with one large item in it. It’s a nuisance to say the least. What I try to do is, I tie the handles into a knot, or tie the neck of the bag into a knot, to shorten the bag and keep it from swinging. Then I hang the bag from my wrist, so I can grip the neck of the bag by the knot.
But that comes from year of experience. I doubt TM has had to do this many times, enough that he developed any strategy for it.
As a rule you don’t discard the bag, since it can be useful, most especially in the rain. A thought that stays in the back of your mind, even though you probably don’t employ it, unless something else happens, like coming across something you need to prevent from getting wet.
So, he probably took the skittles out of the bag, since they’re easily carried in a pocket. Then he wrapped the bag tightly around the can and tried to stuff that in the hoodie pocket. Where it probably had a precarious perch. The least bit of inattention to it and it falls out.
You describe that perfectly. I’m sure those of us that have had same experience you describe would agree. One correction, if I may, the skittles he immediately placed in his pocket at 7-11, so it would make sense those were found in his pocket.
Yeah, he placed the skittles in his pocket that early on, shows that he knew it would be uncomfortable carrying them in the bag. That shows he’s handled these bags before under different circumstances. Often when there’s very little in them they’re uncomfortable to handle and he knew it. My guess is, he knew that at some point, he’s going to want to put that bag with the iced tea in it, in a pocket. So he’s preparing for that by making the package smaller.
I’d guess he’d keep the iced tea in the bag, in his hand, until he had to dial the phone? Or enjoy that cigar? That would work fine as long as he was standing still, when he started moving he have to constantly tend it. Or it would simply drop out.
In the 7-11 vid he puts the skittles in his pocket THEN asks for a bag for the drink. Either to avoid putting a cold can in a pocket, or to GET THE BAG, eg to put on the phone etc if it starts to rain again. Cold cans start to warm up and they make themselves wet on the outside, not nice if that soaks into a thin T-shirt either.
Still I think he may have had it in his hand when GZ first grabbed for him, and he took a swing with it. And the bag broke and the can fell out.
Did they released any additional jail calls?
They are released. Haven’t seen a good link for them yet.
Okie dokie going to look for them
All 145 Calls
With a summary!!!
Thanks, Loree. 🙂
awsome..thanks for this!
You da woman, Loree! 🙂
Loree, calm down! Are you reading the website or just following via email? I’m am replying to your original post about jailhouse calls on July 16 as a test to see if you got this. It looks to me like you got 3 or 4 replies thanking you for the post on the 16th, but your post was #57. As of July 18 in the evening, we’re up to #88. There have been a lot of long comments on other topics as well as jailhouse calls. If you want to renew a discussion, you’ll have to join a newer thread or post a fresh comment as people are not going back up that far to read yours from 2 days ago.
I totally support this blog and all the wonderful info being produced… For those interested on the site thegrio.com they have a a story on Omara titled \”Zimmerman’s lawyer seek a ‘chat’ with conservative bloggers?\’ Posted today very interesting didn\’t think attorneys could request chats from bloggers to get in site on a case.. just wondering.. thanks wisenustud
Thank you for visiting and leaving a comment!
My first reaction — Sounds like an attempt to scrape up some cash from the conservative blogosphere?
I don’t think GZ’s legal team will come knocking here. You know, where people are analyzing evidence before and/or as soon as it becomes available instead of just saying a grown man has the right to murder an innocent unarmed teenager after sustaining minor injuries during a wrestling match/scuffle.
hello wise, yes someone from the conservative nuthouse sent O’Mara an email and posted his reply saying he was happy to meet up. We had a bit of a laugh over it but thought he was just trying to keep them happy since they are paying his huge salary. He does use many of the same out of date arguments that many of them use but that might be more to do with the fact that the defense don’t seem to have a lot of good material to work with.
Thanks for posting about thegrio, i haven’t seen anywhere that has reported on O’Mara getting council from bloggers yet so i’m going to go and have a look now. Thanks
excellent article, the only thing it missed was how they were trying to talk in code like “nudge nudge wink wink it won’t look good for the defence if people know he is talking to us nudge nudge wink wink” so they wanted to keep it all secret squirrel, lol
Now its been reported on thegrio.com that” Conservative blog Zimmerman’s lawyer sought ‘chat’ with outs Witness 9″…
Has anyone read this… sad so sad they gave the w9 and her families info…
How many more lives will this case destroy before gz has his final day in court…
I’ve been reading things from around the net from Zimmerman supporters/CT that claims W9 is his cousin CM/CMJ (I’m sure as hell not posting her name since she clearly didn’t want to be named, and I don’t even know if there is truth to their claims.), but they are saying she shopped her story around for money (blahblahblah) and that she has DUI/drug convictions, etc.
I put no credence in anything I hear from CT. NONE. However, if this is indeed the woman and she has alcohol/drug history, substance abuse is nothing to make light of and is often common with victims of sexual abuse.
oh my God, they even put her picture up. Once again Zimmerman supporters are going to blame the victim. Pricks.
Mother expletive. Seriously? No, seriously — posting a picture of an anonymous witness that reportedly suffered sexual abuse? W.T.F?!?
For the first and maybe only time ever, please don’t cite a link as I’d rather not send them any traffic to the picture from this blog.
I’m not surprised at all. There is no certainty it is even the right person/relative considering the first pic they ever tried to claim was DeeDee was some light skinned black chick with long hair who doesn’t even look a damn thing like the pic going around now as DeeDee. CT is essentially tabloid trash/right wing gossip rag. Whatevaaaaaa. It’s the everybody’s lying, but GZ game (you know, unless you support him then undoubtably you’re telling the truth).
Obviously. First thing they were going to do is tear the witness to shreds. Even if all/lot/most/some of what they come up with is untrue, it will devalue her testimony. It may even cause her to refuse to give it.
And true or not, there have been way too many cases of long-ago sexual misconduct being brought in to smear a person, so that just about ALL such claims have been made suspect. It is by far the easiest type of misconduct to allege untruly, as there is always the “I was too ashamed to tell anyone” excuse for why nobody ever heard of it before.
So, true or not, this witness is not helping anyone, least of all herself, by coming forward with a “character” statement that has no relevance to the case. She’s just succeeded in further traumatising herself, giving GZ’s supporters heaps of ammunition to claim this is “another Duke case”, bringing him plenty more money, and distracting everyone from the case in hand — which has precious little to do with what he did at age 8 or 11.
Her testimony does not go an inch closer to proving he followed Trayvon or proving “depraved mind” — which has to be at the time of the killing, not months or decades earlier. Even having committed proven murder before is not EVIDENCE that an individual committed the specific new murder being investigated.
And it goes no closer to proving GZ is a racist than TM’s “grills” prove he was a thug.
Copy and paste would have been easier.
Lol! Secret Squirrel…here’s a few more old school comic and tv one liners: “heavenstomurgatroid”, Holy____, Batman!” (feel free to fill in the blank with one of GZs most ridiculous quotes), “Lucy, you got some ‘splanin to do”. When MOM(lol) took this case, I held him in high regard. As the case proceeds, not so much so. IMO, when all is said and done, he will not be looked at in the favorable light he imagined this case would put him in.
@ aussie – I’m sorry but you are wrong.
A history of abusing others is a history of victim objectification. I’m sorry that this issue is uncomfortable for you and you have gone on the offensive BUT abusing another child is a WARNING FLAG for other anti-social behavior up to and including murder. What we are dealing with today. I feel that your lack of knowledge about sexual abuse is wrongly influencing your need to push this under the rug. Because this is a complex issue, I’ve still not responded to your mitigating initial post. I want to take my time and will probably write a full blog about why ZIMMERMAN ABUSING HIS COUSIN ties directly to ZIMMERMAN murdering Trayvon. All of those who say this is inadmissible are being fooled by the defense. His abuse (most likely) and abuse of others is key to who he was on 2.26.
Now some of you are deep into the evidence and that is great. I applaud you. Others of us are into the more “soft” aspects of this case, the Why and the motives. I believe there is room on this blog for both. But at the end of the day, the best schematic is not going to win this case. Juries and people are irrational and if you don’t fill in the gap with the “soft” stuff along with the hard evidence, you are taking a risk.
If nothing before 2.26 is relevant, then all of the other discussions that we have had would also be beat back as vigorously. Why the difference with the issue of him abusing his cousin? And if nothing before 2.26 is relevant then we have a long way to go in proving him guilty.
The fact is and has been put forth, regardless if he was 8, this was no childhood game. The 6 year old resisted. She was afraid. Zimmerman also tried to hide it and lie about it at 8. That is not a childhood game, that is not experimenting. This is some severe acting out which would explain his need for control and his projecting of guilt onto all in adulthood, particularly against young black males. If you indeed do not believe he was ambushed out of nowhere, then you have to explain why he would act in such a manner towards a kid walking down the street. If you don’t believe his guilt over his sexual abuse of Witness9 and others was a factor in projecting guilt onto Trayvon, then you are lacking in a sound understanding of sexual abuse, personality disorders AND their role in criminality. Point blank, he is a sociopath and evidence of this behavior at 8 and continuing on is a factor. And if you think this case can be won just on evidence with no explanation of the WHY, then we are sunk because no jury is going to look at just the cold hard facts.
And Trayvon Martin is not on trial here for murder so his “grill” which is no way shape or form compares to sexual abuse of a weaker person is a false equivalence on multiple levels.
The equivalence is in the eagerness to see “proof” of something we are prejudiced to see… the story confirms what we want to believe so we accept it and exaggerate it without questioning. Someone else comes up with a story that goes against our preconceived ideas we reject it (eg all those people who say hes a nice guy). That is what the equivalence is.
“He used to grope his cousin therefore he’s a killer” is just as wrong and ridiculous as “he wore a gold grill therefore he attacked GZ and broke his nose”.
It does show being of bad character (if true) but that is not what he’s been charged with.
Whether this woman was a victim before or not, she’s certainly making herself one now, with all the pro-GZ people ripping her to shreds. Which was to be 100% expected. Brave? courageous? foolhardy? deluded? who knows? Being a victim now again proves nothing about 10 or 15 years ago.
Suddenly everyone is turning out to be experts on sexual abuse. And I’m told I know nothing about it. Okay, have it your way, what do you know about me? The “I know what it’s like therefore this other person is telling the truth” isn’t terribly logical thinking, either.
A couple of points:
1) 1 person says something it is not necessarily true, even if (a) it suits our prejudices and (b) they believe it to be true
2) 1 person rings the police to say something bad about someone mentioned in the news which is not relevant — what she’s saying boils down to “I know he killed that kid because he’s black because he used to poke me when we were kids”. C’mon!
3) kids constantly call out “mom! he’s pinching me Mom he’s pulling my hair Mom he won’t leave me alone”. So she’s not going to say that when he’s trying to finger her? under a blanket with other kids???? doesn’t get her own separate blanket next day? every year that they visit? C’mon!
Being already bullying or predatory young in life may well be relevant to a person’s character. It is no evidence of MOTIVE in a killing. If someone comes forward with evidence that he used to stalk people he deemed suspicious, that would be a different matter.
Attempts to demonise the guy are going to backfire big time. Exaggerations are already creeping in (a quick grope being referred to now as rape, for instance, the self-appointed experts should know the difference). They’ll backfire on the witness, backfire on the case, turn into a circus of who can blacken whose name more….. and just keep the money rolling in for the “defence fund”.
I don’t like to see this blog degenerating into a character assassination site, there’s enough of those out there already. I’m sorry if some of you don’t see it this way, but to me this testimony is a sordid distraction, not a help.
aussie i’m just not understanding the issue. There is a pretty open dialogue here, most of it is pretty reasonable, there are a few assumptions or theories thrown around, most based on facts but of course everyone is here for their own reasons and with their own interests. But this was something that was released to the public, an interview that actually happened, and you want us to ignore it? Is that the issue? Because i’m not sure why this is such a sticking point for you after all the little details that have been talked about, headlight analysis, conspiracy theories, where cars are parked, kicking dogs etc and so on, why is it an issue for an actual piece of evidence to be discussed.
I have not seen anyone here accuse anyone of rape, or even repeat the more descriptive acts that she described (until this post of yours). Perhaps you have seen them on other sites, but here i haven’t seen it. I have seen and participated in discussions of his character, how he seems to feel he can control younger people, how some of her account matches other things we’ve heard about George, but i don’t see where there has been any degeneration or demonising. Just discussion about the latest release that the judge agreed should become public knowledge. How are we to decide what is relevent to talk about and what is not? Who decides? We aren’t trying the case here, we talk about a lot of shit that wont be introduced in the trial, but legitimate discussion of actual evidence released is fair game IMHO or that is one mighty large elephant that is gonna park its butt in the middle of the room.
Why am I not surprised
I can tell you one thing if it takes all of that to make a call from jail I wouldn’t be able to make but one call. Geez what a hassle. Did anybody feel like his wife is a bit nonchalant on the first call on axiom? she was like I don’t know why they took you to the court house, I wasn’t home. I guess we see she wasn’t hiding out that much to be out of the house, I thought they were held hostage in the house.
yeah how annoying was it. I haven’t listened to the calls yet, my kids are so damn loud that i gave up trying to hear before i’d even finished the first one.
I don’t have kids but this made me laugh.
did the FBI actually say Zimmerman was not racist or is that just what the media are reporting based on what Serino said? I can’t find it in the dump that they came to a conclusion unless i missed it somehow. Thanks
The FBI reports/summaries are just that, but a final conclusion was never rendered. It’s just the conclusion that is being drawn from those released documents. Who knows what information will come from further discovery.
thanks QETNO, I keep seeing reports that the FBI concluded he wasn’t racist but all i saw was a whole bunch of statements from people who hardly knew the guy.
Exactly! My understanding is that the FBI concluded the Sanford Police Department didn’t think Zimmerman was racist.
This should have been taken with a grain of salt but the MSM ran with it? You’d think the FBI would require a correction/clarification the moment the story hit the wire.
princss6 comment on 7/16 @ 6:22
“I think looking at a cold-blooded murder, a history of childhood sexual abuse is relevant in so many ways. Trayvon’s murder did not happen in a vacuum. There was a lead up and a build up to his murder and the depraved indifference the confessed murder displayed with others prior to 2.26 goes a long way in explaining why he was so aggressive with Trayvon. He has been victimizing others for a long time and that IS important and as the prosecution has said, if he tries to play the Saint George game, Witness 9, a brave survivor who should not have her story discounted, will be there to rebutt it.
This all goes to the psychological profile of this murderer.”
I was reading comments posted on MSNBC and I thought this poster’s comment sums up what you say…
You know nothing about trial strategy!!!! OR how things fit in. This brave woman corraborates the prosecution’s other witness from work, who both tell the same damn tale!!!! How George victimized them then used his goody goody image to intimidate them and conceal the evil deed behind his deceitful goody boy act to escape punishment or accountability. They corraborate the prosecutions case because Corey says George is doing the same thing in this case too, did evil and hiding it behind a good boy image. All this is relevent, admissable testimony and it corraborates the prosecutions case by showing George has a pattern throught his life of doing this shyt, then getting away with it because nobody believes he is bad. George Zimmerman is bad. He’s murdered someone this time -the system has had enough of his shyt.
It shows George has a lifetime pattern of doing evil deeds victimizing people then using lies, deceit and a fake good boy image to deny and get away with it. If you knew how to fight a case or write a trial narrative for battle you’d know about establishing your character witnesses. You people don’t get it, it’s the prosecution that is putting on a brilliant display. But Omara gets it, that’s why his as$ is doing everything to postpone a trial.
If there is no evidence against George -Let him take his ass to trial!!!! The prosecution’s case is brilliant. I see it developing, George will not escape just because nobody saw what he did. The prosecution is brilliantly going to show you all how to mastermind a case around that. Whew!!!! The prosecution is sharp!!!! George is toast, and listening to ric and you trust verify, you 2 have all these people on here blind. Time will tell
Hi Tina, i think the first paragraph is pretty spot on, thanks for posting this, its very interesting perspective because it’s not just what the guy does, it’s how he worms his way out of everything.
Bingo, Jo! And thank you Tina! The prosecution has to not only explain what he did but WHY he did it or there is reasonable doubt.
I wonder who Z is talking to when he admits that O’Mara knows about a $37,000 transfer through the Pay Pal account. This is on Tape 30 dated April 14. I don’t have a link. Here is the text of the conversatioin:
Jailhouse calls released.
1st bond hearing on 4/20/12
This call was on 4/14/12 – talks about MOM knowing about fund transfer …
GZ had been talking to his caller on the phone about MOM
@ 4.43 mark in call
GZ: I did tell him (MOM) that we tried to make one transfer of 37 and it got held up because it is over the 10, you know.
Male: ah ah
GZ: So he knows about that. um But he …
Male: Does he know about the volume
GZ: And uh …
Male: I’d like to keep that with us
GZ: Ok I think so too.
(I got this inquiry from Professor Leatherman’s blog.)
I read its his brother on Miamihearld I believe…
At the end of call#30, zimmerman can be heard checking to see if “scott” is still on the line. I’ve read elsewhere that “scott” is ken and is also the brother-in-law.
I didn’t listen to the calls yet but a brother in law rented a car for Zimmerman before the arrest.
The 2nd evidence dump failed to redact this last name (Wilson) on page 89.
Yes. That’s what this article said also.
Nice find! It’s a Miami Herald worthy story now…
Thank you — I’ll post to Update section when I wake up. 🙂
Anybody know the repercussions for O’Mara lying to the court (if that ends up being the case)? Loss of license? Worse?
Here is an article about O’Mara’s knowledge about the funds.
I think the person he was talking to was Scott, not his brother, but a friend. I believe this Scott person is also the same as “Ken” who was mentioned in the first 6 calls released that helped get his bond revoked. I have no doubt O’Mara knew there was a large sum of money, but probably chose to remain as blissfully ignorant as possible. Furthermore, I’d place a bet that whoever was advising GZ has some sort of connections to where he is knowledgable about the kind of thing GZ was doing with the money, and could get in big shit if his role is looked into further. That’s just me taking a wild stab in the dark, though. *shrug*
Here’s a story link to the last comment:
O’Mara evidently was told about a $37,000 attempted transfer by George but didn’t want it presented in court because he was getting ready to declare George indigent.
I wonder whether George said “37” to O’Mara instead of saying “thousands.” Maybe he continued to use his code, somehow thinking O’Mara would understand.
I’m not trying to excuse O’Mara, but I am trying to understand how he could walk into this case and almost immediately knowingly lie in court. George and his secret accountant then kept the true total from O’Mara. This man made the mistake of not listening or not understanding or not believing. He had already decided that George’s life was ruined.
But this does not look good for O’Mara. His own machinations seem to be exposed.
What an exciting couple of days!
omara KNEW the amount, because saying 37 was OVER the limit for one transfer from paypal does anybody think paypal has a limit UNDER $37? of course with 100% certainty omara KNEW it was 37,000, in an honest world omara would lose his law license on this he participated in the LYING to the court and KNEW he was doing it……this claim of i have too much to lose to do that is LAME.
he was probably seeing $$ signs himself. He wasn’t thinking it was zimmermans money but instead he was thinking it’s his next pay cheque haha. He was probably planning on doing a shit load of overtime now that Georgie was rich!!
If someone says to a lawyer worth his salt “small amount”, his next question should be “how much is small?” “Small” is by comparison… to what? To what you have in your pocket? Or to your mortgage? Is it 100, 500, or 10,000, 40,000? Gee, even 10 million is small, if you’re comparing it to Buffet’s net worth!
In this case, “small” turned out to be many tens of thousands of dollars! Now we can’t rely on O’Mara’s words, because he doesn’t want to know what’s being discussed!
I don’t know about this Mark Osterman, but you would think that as a former Sheriff Deputy, he would have alerted the police that they might want to check Zimmerman’s vehicle, rather than remove it from the scene?
This man “knows the drill” so to speak, so he knows he’s thwarting the police investigation in some way, by helping Shellie remove GZ’s truck from the scene, without it being searched and recorded by the SPD.
Since GZ said nothing about removing his truck in his communications, how do they know it’s around the scene, less, to go and remove it? This has to either be pre-planned behavior or something that only a person with MO’s creds/skill sets would think of, to the detriment and defeat of the official police investigation.
I’m pretty sure that if GZ was not MO’s friend, MO would have pointed out to the police that they should be checking this vehicle. So what gives?
Morning (It’s early a.m. where I am, at least), Lonnie Starr.
I don’t know why *anyone* would move something from a crime scene without asking! You make a good point, though, this Mark Osterman should have known that’s not something to do. I think there is more to come on this. I’m still not sure the relevance of the bank vid.
The bank vid seems to show MO at the bank, leaving about 6.40 p.m. (ATM video, he’s the last person on it, compare that image with pix of him leaving the court with GZ, in my link http://i.imgur.com/AMCW9.png).
This puts him at Rinehart & Orlando around the same time Trayvon gets there, having left the 7-11 at 6.32.
That puts him in the position of possibly having mentioned to GZ that he saw (someone suspicious) approaching the estate. In other words, back to an old theory of ours that GZ was tipped off, didn’t just accidentally happen to notice Trayvon at he short-cut. Which puts a whole different complexion on the “not following” denials.
The never say why this video was taken into evidence. There’s a mention somewhere of someone being sent out to get video from nearby businesses just to see them, not looking for anything specific, maybe hoping for clues to the victim’s identity. This is how they got the 7-11 tapes, too, though they also had a 7i-11 receipt to prompt them to get that one.
The car? it was some 200 ft away. At what distance does something cease being “the crime scene”? there was nothing to suggest a vehicle had been used in the commission of a crime or in the shooting incident. They didn’t even know until hours later he’d driven there, not walked.
Should they have taped off his house as well?
Has anyone yet come up with a LIKELY explanation for what might be in the vehicle that would make it urgent to remove it?
If the Ridgeline was pointing east on the wrong side of the road as Zimmerman indicated in his reenactment, it would have stuck out like a sore thumb and should have definitely been taped off. If the Ridgeline was pointing west, maybe nothing seemed out of the ordinary.
HOWEVER, Officer Mike Bernosk ran the plates (page 3 of the dump) and received confirmation at least one nearby vehicle was registered to the shooter. Immediately — as in, without any sort of hesitation — the vehicle should have been taped off.
Anybody know where the cops parked? Or, did they park in the street on both sides of the path?
Going on various TV footage from the night, the cops and emergency vehicle were parked all over the place. Both on TTL and RVC. Right way, wrong way, half on the grass, all over.
Taped off why? there was nothing to suggest it had been used in anything illegal. The matter was already being treated as a possible/likely SYG case, one of the statements from the night already says so. The shooter was in custody having peacefully given himself up. The only reason they were running tags was to see if there was a strange one that might help identify the victim.
Much more to the point, is seems possible both Zimmerman vehicles were there. THAT might be something to arouse at least a raised eyebrow?
So far it seems nobody’s found the appropriate webiste to search out the tags on, to confirm whose the other car was, the one mentioned as “white Honda”.
Yes, as you correctly point out, there’s nothing suspicious from the police side of the issue, as to why they didn’t move to tape off this vehicle. The police weren’t sent to locate GZ’s vehicle.
But, from the Osterman side, that’s another story entirely! Since he knows about crime scenes and such, and knows that the shooters vehicle is connected to the crime scene, until the police examine and release it. Most especially since he also knows, that GZ doesn’t live over here, where the vehicle is parked. The vehicle is far from GZ’s home and much closer to the crime scene. To a trained police mind, that should suggest that it has some connection to the scene!
In any event, if this was not GZ’s vehicle and this was not a crime scene involving GZ, I’d think Osterman would have pointed out that the vehicle should have been secured by the police, if it had any obvious connection to any party to the crime.
I’d bet that if Osterman had sought clearance from the police to move the vehicle, noting that it belonged to GZ, they’d have refused to let him take it so soon. Of course, it’s suspicious that someone with his knowledge of police work, never bothered to ask for clearance. But, simply removed, what was clearly “probable evidence” from the scene surreptitiously, without notice to anyone!
GZ said he was in a vehicle, following TM and left a vehicle, it should have been investigated. What may have been in the vehicle it appears that will remain a mystery.
For a lay person, there’s no reason at all for them not to feel free to move the vehicle. So, on that point I can agree that, from Shellie’s point of view, it’s simply something to do.
The problem is that a LEO professional is with her, who knows that the owner of this vehicle is also involved in a police investigation, or will be, or should be! Beyond that, he also knows, there’s no need to guess at what evidence, that is connected to someone involved, might reveal. He knows that all connected evidence should be preserved for examination. Not removed from where it happens to be, before the police know about it and have a chance to either examine it or release it.
As NLME has said, and I concur, if they had another means of communicating, one that left no records, that would be suspicious under these circumstances, for a mere NW program. NW, as we’ve learned, are not expected to act on their observations. In fact, the opposite is true, they are expected to “stand down” and report, and remain passive! Something GZ has clearly made up his mind not to do any longer.
But, while intending to break NW rules, we know now that he’d also want to preserve the appearance of continuing to abide by NW rules, even while breaking them. So, if he’s conspiring with others in this manner, then a means of secret communications channels would be a good indication of it.
So, he certainly wouldn’t want any such device to be found in his vehicle, since that would cast doubt on his intentions and methods. Since it would make collusion a viable alternative to coincidences that appear.
But there is also another thing that comes to mind for me. What if, as I’ve been saying, that those wounds the “professional barroom bouncer” displayed, were created before the claimed fight? Then, also finding evidence of recent bleeding in the vehicle, would add to those suspicions.
Most especially in light of the autopsy report, which indicates that Trayvon’s hands never touched GZ’s bloody head. So, there’s that!
Perhaps even a second gun in the vehicle? A knife or razor blade or other sharp instrument?
In any event, as we have seen, even the exact location and orientation of the vehicle, is something the police and prosecutors would probably have found probative.
“I’m pretty sure that if GZ was not MO’s friend, MO would have pointed out to the police that they should be checking this vehicle. So what gives?”
NLME: You mentioned cb radios before, got me thinking.
I also posted elsewhere about how it is possible that they used walkie talkies from Walmart. You know those inexpensive little things that cover 2 or three miles? If so, they probably purchased them with cash so as to leave no trace of the purchase, that would be the Osterman Resource way, eh? If so, then maybe FT, GZ and MO had one, and possibly John as well.
In any event, that would make it a critical mission to get it out of GZ’s truck. But, that effort might be witnessed and/or leave other evidence behind, best to just get the truck out of there, as the Osterman Resource would surely know. So, using Shellie as his cover, he goes and does just that, removes the truck from the scene. The trouble is, he’s someone who should have known better than to do this. If Shellie had done it on her own, it wouldn’t seem quite so important, since no one could say that she didn’t know that what she was doing was wrong.
But Osterman? No one can say that he didn’t know that what he was helping her do was totally wrong! He should have weighed in against it.
He can’t claim that, simply because he’s no longer acting in an official capacity, he can be excused for knowingly destroying evidence. He can’t be excused for knowingly obstructing an official police investigation!
Most especially in a homicide case. I think MOM has another client?
Maybe that will help him raise more donations.
If O’Mara did lie to Judge Lester, he could face disbarrment. If Osterman moved GZ SUV from the crime scene, that obstruction of justice, yes he would have know better. I understand that MO at the scene continually attempted to tell the police what to do they told him to leave. And remember he shows up the next day as GM reenact what happen. Why Sernio did not tell him to leave I don’t know, but I would have. Then Osterman was fired from the Sheriff Deptartment for his involvment in fraud.
Ok, I respect everyone’s right to put up a theory, but I just HAVE to chime in on this one about the CB radios. COME ON! Given that GZ is really bad at covering his tracks and leaving recorded evidence (911 calls, jailhouse calls), do you really think they’d be wandering around with CB’s. Really????? You’re adding a few too many points to GZ’s IQ.
I guarantee you as Zimmerman’s finger was about to pull the trigger, he knew an obvious evidence trail (like phone records) wouldn’t be left behind for a slam dunk conviction. Otherwise, he doesn’t fire at Trayvon’s chest.
Remember, we’re talking about a manipulative gun fanatic that studied criminal justice and was the son of two parents who worked in the judicial system their entire life.
Maybe I’m giving Zimmerman too much credit. He’s done some REALLY stupid stuff so far. The phone records should reveal a lot. If they don’t, I’m willing to say there was an alternative form of communication used that night. What I can assure you — somebody tipped Zimmerman off before he began his hunt. Meaning, there was nothing coincidental about Zimmerman spotting Trayvon Martin near Taaffe’s house.
NLME, oh I quite agree that a tip-off is plausible, and GZ’s phone records would be enlightening. As discussed before by you and others, any number of people could have been the informant if there was one, with or without phone records.
Sure he could have been on the “hunt”, but it started out to apprehend, not to kill, per his little hero/Napolean complex:
1) Many things on his NEN call tells us that he feels so absolutely in the right with what he was doing (narcissism) that he let out expletives on the recorded call without a care. In his mind, the hunt was going to end with him actually catching a thief. Even if he did have an intent when he left the house to shoot the “suspect” (and I’m not saying that he did) with a depraved mind, I’m not convinced he’s smart enough to have the CB’s on hand to use to cover his tracks “in case” it goes down the wrong way. That kind of thinking is reserved for chess players and well successful criminals. I do agree with you NLME that GZ is capable of manipulation as evidenced by the hiding of the money, scripted statements, etc. But his ability to pull it off is just so inept, I will agree with you again that you give him too much credit.
2) What is more telling is the way he keeps calling TM the “suspect” in his statements, and in the video with the female officer at the station he asks her if she’s ever “had” to shoot someone. He’s talking to her as if he was a rookie officer going through his first shooting in the line of duty. His demeanor was not “OMG, I shot someone”, it was “I HAD to shoot someone” in the sense that real officers “HAVE” to shoot a suspect. He also told the first neighbor on the scene the same thing, I think. And in his video enactment, his first thought was to jump on top and to ask the neighbor to help restrain the dying teenager. I also think some of those yells for help (but not all) were from him trying to get neighbors to help him with the “suspect”. That’s why he could get eye contact because he wasn’t really about to go unconscious.
3) I think his friendship with MO, sadly, was both his saving grace and downfall. It was a saving grace in the sense that MO was there right after his tumultuous period of run-ins with the law back around mid-2000’s. Since then, he seemed to have “turned” his life around by going to school and getting married, etc. However, getting the gun and the trips to the shooting range all just added to his sense that somehow he belongs with the guys in blue.
4) Why try so hard to be a hero? The answer will come out as the details of his “family dynamics” comes out, as O’Mara puts it. It’s not living up to his father’s expectations as some might think. It’s his mother. Classic profile of child trying to please overbearing parent.
Nor do we have to rely on GZ’s intelligence levels alone, after all there is the Osterman Resource, who could have easily advised them, if they ever got around to discussions of how to avoid NW rules without seeming to break them. GZ does seem to have stories ready, to “innocently” account for each breach of NW rules.
1. The dispatcher asked me to follow.
2. I stopped following and tried to return to my vehicle.
3. I was jumped from behind.
4. I was punched in the face.
5. I didn’t know where I was.
6. I stumbled and reeled for some distance then fell down.
7. I forgot I had a gun with me.
8. My assailant reminded me of the gun.
9. I’ve forgotten how to defend myself, since my barroom bouncer days.
10. Trayvon had magic hands!
11. I had a magic gun!
LOL So Interesting. I didn’t think they had CBs either but I never thought of the IQ aspect.
MO was THERE. To begin with. No need for phone tipoffs when he can just drive to someone’s door and tell him in person. And very likely did not do so with any malice aforethought. Just casually mentioned seeing a “Goon”-like person heading this way.
He left the bank at 6.40 Trayvon left 7-11 at 6.32 YOU work out where they’d first see each other.
Doesn’t have to be a huge organised conspiracy for things to fall into place a certain way. Let’s try for the simplest explanation for everything — it is usually sufficient.
If I was driving back from the ATM and thought something was urgent/pressing/worth a neighborhood watch alert, I’d personally choose to communicate instantly instead of wait the few minutes it would have taken to get back to Zimmerman’s place. But, we’ll see I guess.
Maybe you’re right though. Osterman got back to Zimmerman’s place and said, “Hey, George — there was this kid walking by Taaffe’s window 5 minutes ago…you should go check it out.”
In such a case, I’d expect Zimmerman to respond: “Thanks for the delayed heads up, jerkoff — he probably already got away like they always do. Plus, it’s nasty outside. I’ll see if Taaffe can get an update.”
Gee a five minute delay at 5 fps is 1500 feet, TM would have been home by then eh? I noticed they like to use text messages too, so maybe they did? Well, first we had one possible source of notification, now we have two!
It’s certainly looking more like there was notice given, than some coincidental meeting by happenstance. All that would be needed is a throwaway cell phone in GZ’s vehicle, or perhaps a walkie talkie or other communications device and GZ would be toast. As it is now, we’ll have to keep waiting and looking.
All of which may be true for that night alone… But, this breaking of NW watch rules, would have been an ongoing thing, that probably persisted for quite some time. So, that would be the reason for needing an “off channel” means of communications that would not leave a recorded trail.
GZ or Taaffe might not have been able to foresee the need, but Osterman certainly would if they discussed it with him.
Of course, this is now relegated to a side issue, since we still have no evidence to support it. But, it’s something we might want to keep in mind, since doing so might help recognize any subtle evidence of it. Without a theory in mind, of how some seemingly innocuous piece of evidence might fit, one is likely to pass it over or otherwise miss it’s significance.
I think it was all about the drugs. Florida is pretty popular for obtaining prescription drugs illegally. The gov there also wants poor people to take drug tests to keep or obtain welfare benefits at their own expense and at testing sites his friends profit from.
Zimmerman’s wife was pursuing a career in which she’d have unfettered access to drugs. Zimmerman was pursuing a career (mortgage underwriting/fraud/underwriting) in which he’d have unfettered access to people’s credit reports which included SS#s, addresses, debts, etc., and his training focused on criminal justice.
Both Zimmerman’s and his wife’s jobs could be completely noble and non-nefarious.
My experience with LE is that they keep what they find and use it to share with “pretty girls” or “pretty boys” to impress who they think is weak and boost “control” over their “prey”. It’s all about power to some LE. For others, it’s not that way, but the one’s I’ve known, covering a friend is the same thing as CYA.
I’d like to know what was in the truck Shellie moved and LE didn’t search.
Just thought I’d get a head start. 😉 I have thought about this scenario, too, but since it’s not supported by anything factual at this point, I don’t go there. I, too, would like to know why SZ wanted to move the car so quickly; I would also be curious to know what the contents of that car were at the time along with location. I would like to know what was told to her by John that let her know the location.
Do we know if GZ ever gave his address out in any of his non-emergency/911 calls, or did he always give landmarks or outside of his home locations for dispatch?
GZ did give his full address to non emergency on the night of the incident. He told dispatch he didn’t want to give it out because he thought the kid was in the area and would hear it, but he went ahead and gave his address anyway.
Actually, I believe GZ first started to give out his address. He says the number of his house, but then stops short of giving the street address, and then says, oh I don’t want to give it all out I don’t know where this kid is. Not the other way around.
He gave the number, but then pulled back from giving the street name, presumably because he didn’t know who might overhear.
Of course the way things are numbered there I think just saying 1950 is enough for someone who knows the neighborhood to find his house.
I thought he stopped giving it mid sentence. I remember him starting to say the address, but then stopping saying that he didn’t want to give it out because he didn’t know where the kid went. Personally, I think that contradicts with him not following; if TM had run to the back and was long gone like he said, and he had gone to where he says in the reenactment, then there’d be no way he’d be overheard.
I noticed in his other calls to NE/911 that he seemed hesitant to give his address. I can’t recall if he ever gave it out. That night, I don’t believe that’s in the call because he stopped himself from finishing it then that’s why they started discussing where he should meet them.
You are both right. I think I’m getting too much info overload from listening to so many tapes. There was one dispatch recording where I am sure I heard him gave them his full address when he was at his house with She-lie in the background. I must say you are all doing a great job on NMLE’s blog site, my favorite one by far.
Hey.. It is definitely UNFOUNDED! 🙂
In most of the calls I listened to, he didn’t give out his address.
I’d guess in most of his calls he wasn’t home.
I believe you are correct. I think there was one call he was home, not because he says that, but because I believe they redacted out an address. There was another call that I found interesting because he was in his vehicle, and straight up says he parked somewhere where he could be inconspicuous and watch, and I believe it is in this same call that he refuses to give an address (like in the TM call), but in this one GZ is asked if they are still in the area, but he answers no. It just sort of reminded me of his behavior on the TM non-emergency call.
@ Lonnie Starr. MO is a person of questionable charter. He was fired from the Sheriffs for his involvment in a fraud. MO is credit for teaching GZ to shoot, I somehom do not think simple target shooting either. A friend, possible MO allowed GZ to hide out in his home and is currently appears to be part of GZ security team. I am getting the impression MO had access to GZ ATM that would include the password, so perhaps not friend but more then a mintor. I do not know the various rules of an Air Marshall, I do imagine there is a code of conduct that may prohibit Air Marshall from hiring themselves out as body guards and such at MO did while he was a sheriffs deputy.
Notice how GZ’s head was shaved before the events making him look more like MO. MO is definitely a mentor and fatherlike to him. But it is slightly odd though. It it like someone who lacks confidence in themselves will try to take on characteristics of another person. GZ was probably trying to be MO that night or behave as MO would have.
Though discredited as he may be, he still was privy to police work and crime scene processing, so he’d know that what he was doing, in removing the GZ vehicle from the scene before the police could have a good look at it, was wrong.
He needs to be cited for doing that, because he knowingly broke the rules and obstructed the police investigation! He knows that the police are entitled to look at GZ’s vehicle, most especially when it’s parked closer to the crime scene than to his home. Both of which locations MO was well aware of!
I am loathe to even delve into the sexual abuse topic but I wonder if GZ will deny the meeting in a booth of a restaurant where GZ had a short, seemingly insincere apology for the abuse survivor. One assumes there are witnesses for that “apology” and that investigators would care to contact this person to confirm the allegations were acknowledged at the time, if not actual guilt admitted. He can deny the behavior or specific activities all he wants, but a meeting to discuss the topic that took place with at least one witness present is another matter all together.
Through his lawyer he seems to be denying the activity, and I don’t blame him for trying – if he was 18 and she was 16 when it was happening that’s probably criminal behavior, it would seem to me. But is he also denying the MEETING took place and/or what he said at the meeting?
if Zimmerman is a decent person (imo), he won’t waste time and money trying to smear the victim. Instead, Zimmerman should spend his bucks on smarter representation. Funny how team Zimmerman wants to discard Judge Lester for upholding the law.
Perhaps, if he were a decent person, he should’ve done the right thing and admitted his misdeeds to the authorities that night, and the next day to Trayvon’s family. Then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn’t be here discussing this (imo).
I so agree. Contrary to popular opinion, I *do* think Zimmerman is evil. Incarnate as a matter of fact! The jury is out — for the 6 or 12 that will be selected to hear this case and decide. I’m not on it and there is zero likelihood that I would ever be.
But from my perspective, I see no reason to withhold my opinion or not draw conclusions based on the facts (as interpreted by me in formulation of my own opinions). Sure, opinions probably should have been reserved prior to the evidence released, but we see the evidence now.
I am deeply disturbed by the profit-making angle of this case. There is no way a decent person would be soliciting tv interviews for cash with a schtick involving saying crap like “it’s god plan” to kill a unarmed black teenager. Look at Goldman Sach’s Blankfein’s arrogance and the results of his “it god’s work” testimony! This bull is no longer acceptable.
I’m no huge fan of Sharpton, but even he said it months ago. Bullchit is acceptable until people stop accepting it.
No decent person would put up a website begging for cash from “those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes,” which was the position to kill an unarmed teenager committing no crime as that teenager walked home after purchasing snacks with the decently -earned money his dad had given him.
No decent person would say on Fox News’ Hannity propaganda show airing 7/18/12 and 7/19/12 pre-taped 1-2 days prior that he wouldn’t do a damn thing different that night in light of all the facts made publicly available since his murder of this unarmed child. This Fox interview was taped months after evidence dumps were released to the public and neither Zimmerman nor O’Mara can pretend any longer that they hadn’t been made fully aware that he had shot an unarmed kid.
No decent person would continue to try to *penetrate* or insult or intimidate his victim’s family with fake apologies just as a rapist would try to penetrate a victim and insult the victim with powerful reasoning to hush the victim. (Sorry Aussie, but I’m using the word “rape” this time in the sense that it is a crime of control/power/abuse over a victim and not in relation to the case or use as evidence).
The chit Zimmerman and his attorney are doing (raping their victims) is unacceptable. It’s unacceptable in a civil society.
I too am sickened by the fact that people donate to them, knowing full well that the evidence so far is inconsistant with his claim of self defense. I feel that by doing this interview, and using the media to garner financial support for GZ, that MOM is doing what everyone else in GZs past has done…give him a false sense of entitlement! They really seem to be enjoying his new found celebrity even at the expense of a dead teen, and that teen’s grieving family.
MOM continues to feed GZs delusions of grandeur. Instead of being the voice of reason and ensuring that GZ realizes that for every so called ‘fan/supporter’, there’s an even greater number of people against him. The idea of the two of them “paling” around like best buds is a slap in the face to the justice system.
Every time I think of him and all his financial supporters, I think of the movie ‘Man On Fire’ with Denzel Washington…and remember the line when the mother of the kidnapped girl, whose presumed dead, asks him what he’s gonna do to those that were involved in the kidnapping/killing. He replies that he’s gonna kill any/everyone that was involved, and or profited from it. I just can’t help but believe there’s gonna be a certain measure of ‘reaping’ for anyone that’s sown a seed (profited and or donated), in support of GZ. Not because they honestly believe him to be innocent, but because of their own bigoted beliefs!
@aussie @comment box 58
“Attempts to demonise the guy are going to backfire big time. Exaggerations are already creeping in (a quick grope being referred to now as rape, for instance, the self-appointed experts should know the difference). They’ll backfire on the witness, backfire on the case, turn into a circus of who can blacken whose name more….. and just keep the money rolling in for the “defence fund”.”
I said “rape” at comment 53 (the only one here who has done so). If that’s what you refer to above, I must say that I truly meant no harm to you personally or your well-rounded opinions. I just respectfully disagree.
Apparently, in Florida, sexual penetration of minors is all good if the perpetrator is under 24. In my state it’s 18 and commercials run 24/7 of women saying “I was” [raped]. I agree that it’s partially off-track unless we’re discussing character and this *is* a character issue that is reportedly corroborated and not just tabloid smearing. The rape victim may be used as a rebuttal witness by the state. I agree that it is a separate case to be brought as to criminal charges that may ensue.
I also take offense to your rant regarding “self-appointed experts” if you were referring to me. If you were not, please disregard. Again, as the only person to refer to Zimmerman’s actions as “rape” aside from legitimate news sources, I feel it was directed at me, but hoping it was directed towards those newspapers that did the same. IOW, I hope you were not referring to me and talking about newsers in general instead.
My psuedo name mentions no expert status for a reason. I rely on *common sense* — a people’s experience. I personally advocate change to fracked up laws and the Austrailian-born criminal Murdoch enterprise’s monopoloy of the news fed to us Americans for which we have a right to get without his right-wing agenda, his greed and his influence. The end goal for me is to see Australian-born media mogul SHUT DOWN so that whites, blacks, hispanics and asians get back to news/facts.
I reiterate that based on everything I have seen thus far, I find George Zimmerman to be evil. It’s my opinion. Maybe Australian-born Murdoch’s leading “feeds” (CNN, HP, ABC) will get back to the job of reporting facts instead of writing for click-appeal. If they don’t, it’s not my problem.
We’re on the same team (I think), truth. Truth is sometimes cold and hard as well as sometimes compassionate and soft. Logic is multi-faceted and cannot discount the real world no matter who has media control.
EVIDENCE says Zimmerman raped a family member and later apoligized for it. That’s not based on anybody’s expertise. It is based on the facts released in accordance with Florida’s sunshine laws.
as an Australian i must say i agree with you about Murdoch….and please stop reminding everyone where he is from…it’s embarrassing lol
LOL! I don’t discriminate against Australians. I wish I could visit the “down under” myself, but I’m too chicken-chit to stay on an airplane that long. I hear its an awesome place.
I had a cousin who went to live there for a few years and had nothing but good things to say about it and the pics and stories he told were like living in a dream. Perhaps one day I’ll get over my long-flight issues and see for myself.
haha yeah the flight would be a real bitch..i hate planes too…but you get free booze on international flights so then again the longer the flight the better lol
I’ve compiled a list of 8 statements made by GZ to his buddy MO that he never told police. The funny part is that he made them just 2hours before the reenactment.
Same place (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII), last figure.
Am I being too forward if I say I love you, tchoupi.caillou? LOL. Thanks, and going to take a look now.
Wonderful work as always, tchoupi.
44,501 views for your compilation. I’ve seen it mentioned on other blogs, too.
Maybe he has a single-use memory? once he tells someone that’s it, he can’t use it again?
“Maybe he has a single-use memory? once he tells someone that’s it, he can’t use it again?”
Bahahaha, that would explain a lot!!
There’s a point I was trying to make though…
When I wrote “I wonder if it wouldn’t be more efficient to interview Mark Osterman directly.”, I was suggesting that MO may really be the mentor/coach/trainer [you name it] that help scripting GZ’s story. I should actually say MO and Zimmerman Senior [RZ].
After all, MO seems to have been told more about the events and they discussed the them only a couple of hours before the reenactment. We also know MO and RZ were at the complex (by the truck that never moves) during the reenactment. It feels like it has been a pre-reenactment session with a former cop [MO] & a former magistrate judge [RZ].
As Investigator Serino stated, GZ’s story sounds scripted. Guess what, GZ’s story has even been rehearsed.
like he had visited the scene already to get the story straight and checked out the surroundings during the day. Nice one.
I’m with you on that point. I always thought it was RZ Sr. that was the director, but now that we know about MO, I think he played a role, too. But why? Helping a buddy or something to hide? And who is Scott/Ken?
Why do all of these people want to run to help GZ?
I think other witnesses also may have felt they were listening to a rehearsed story. Some even mentioned the Zimmerman “repeats” in their statements.
CSFC, could you link to some of the witnesses mentioning GZ repeats? I’m really curious. Thx
I took a look at my notes from the 2nd doc dump and one reference appears on page 138. The link for the doc dump is at the top of this page. I downloaded mine from news4jax.
page 138 – when talking to the co-worker the day of the shooting, the co-worker said zimmerman repeatedly mentioned the part about Martin slamming and bashing his head into the ground. (this is odd since that’s the exact same part he makes sure to repeat multiple to the police. seems rehearsed and similar to the way sales people repeat phrases in order to drive home a pitch. zimmerman used to work at car max.)
Also, take a look if you haven’t already at page 145-147 for an evidence map and key from SPD(?).
CSFC – I plan to post a review/analysis of evidence dump #2 later today. Can I email you for some insight/feedback at the yahoo address before the posting is live?
Why certainly! Don’t know if I can be of much help, but I’ll try.
Thanks CSFC, this is interesting that the day after he was repeating his story at work.
Ha! Well for all the ‘rehearsing’ for the ‘reenactment’ they sure did a lousy job prepping GZ. But then again, he does have a ‘bad memory’ and all (lol), so he very well could’ve mucked up an otherwise, plausible story. Jeez, these three! Don’t know about anyone else, but I get the feeling his father isn’t all that ‘authoritive’ in the sense that, if the allegations of the mother’s physical abuse and him standing by doing nothing are true, she’s the one running the show in Zimmerman household.
Granted, we all want to protect our children, but, no way would I go on record reporting as ‘fact’, the ridiculous story GZ told. Especially, after seeing him and realizing that his injuries didn’t line up with the story. I doubt the mother believed his version of events and only spoke up at the first bond hearing to show support, giving testimony of two instances of him not showing racial bias. I get the feeling she’s none to happy about GZ putting the Zimmerman name, she holds in such high regard, in the ‘spotlight’, negatively! She certainly didn’t want the family’s dirty little secrets getting out…
I think Zimmerman’s team is oblivious to what people really think and are self-absorbed bigots that don’t think other people are “bright” enough to notice their contradictions or their falsely put forth explanations.
I think his mother’s and father’s testimony on behalf of their son is fake to the core. They remind me of grifters and insurance frauds that milk compassion towards the jewish plight and the plight of hispanics, but have disdain for the black plight, the asian plight, the african plight and the ‘other’s’ plights around the globe.
Is that a back door way of trying to insinuate that Zimmerman is part Jewish?
I am saying they only get “causes” that work towards their own end game — whatever it may be at that particular moment. Like people that put on tattered clothing only on a day they have to go to the welfare office or people that purchase crutches and bandages as they head to their insurance agent’s office. [Large butterfly bandages over tiny wounds that required nothing but soap and water to treat.]
I don’t know if George Zimmerman is Jewish.
Apparently he is not Jewish. The name is common in German, about 50 – 50 Jewish and gentile.
The mother was repaid loans she’d given them to help them out. Perhaps she was repaid with substantial interest?
Was she there are the second bond hearing? it was being televised so she was going to see it anyway. Might account for RZ’s strange way of saying he’d heard GZ screaming like that “in Virginia”. To avoid saying when his mother was thrashing him? and thereby get in trouble with Mrs Z?
Although it’s more often the father that’s abusive and the mother trying to protect the kids, it works the same the other way around, too. The mild parent “making it up” to the kid afterwards, to ease his pain. And the mild parent helping the kid cover up anything that might otherwise draw the wrath of the abusive one.
As for “marrying white and money”??? called upward mobility, or social climbing. Not necessarily racist; can apply to marrying into the “right side of the tracks”. Implies the person considers THEMSELVES to be in a socially inferior position. Which might be objectively true, without implying they believe they ARE inferior. Just saying, not trying to discount Mom Z’s quoted plainly (“proudly”) racist remarks. Of course if one partner is “marrying UP” the other is marrying “down” so you have to wonder what’s in it for them?
Social climbing *if defined by the *race of the bride or groom *is racist, imo.
i am sceptical about the mother beating George mercilessly. This story has come from George telling his friend, not even the cousin mentioned it. Maybe she was strict and smacked him and he is embellishing. I’m not saying i don’t believe it at all, just that i don’t trust much of what George says and wouldn’t put it past him to exaggerate to get sympathy. Like when he told his ex he owned the insurance company he actually only worked at…and when he told his events of feb 26, alot of embellishing to make him appear the victim.
damn, why can’t i view it. My computer is giving me grief. Is there any way you can summarise here because i’m really interested in reading this? cheers
Statements made to MO by GZ, but left out of his tellings to the SPD:
1. Making eye contact
2. Going out of his car with the purpose of locating TM
3. Falling on his butt then on his back as a result of TM’s punch
4. TM mounted GZ with his butt on GZ and knees on the ground to the sides of GZ’s ribs
5. GZ observed 3 witnesses come out one after the next. Made eye contact with all and directly yelled to them for help, but no one listened and all went back inside
6. GZ slapped TM’s hand away from gun, pulled it, rotated the weapon then fired one round
7. GZ’s elbows were on the ground when he fired
8. TM pivoted 90degrees then laid face down
These are points tchoupi.caillou lists on his(?) wonderful link!
wonderful, thanks! All good points
Thanks tchoupi.caillou, you’ve done an amazing job on the clubhouse videos and analysis of the crime scene.
One of the above points sticks out like a sore thumb. Number 5: If this is when GZ says he was pinned down, did all of those 3 witnesses verify or deny it was him who actually called out to them for help? After he shot Trayvon he claims he was restraining him face down and was calling out for help, but there is no one heard calling for help on the 911 calls after the gun went off. Those calls picked up a lot of background noise before the gun was fired as you could hear screen doors slamming and the terrified calls for help so I would assume IF GZ’s called for help after the fact it was loud enough to hear and would be picked up on the dispatch call. When Mary and Selma went outside and caught him in the act of “restraining” Trayvon they asked him three times what was going on but he didn’t ask them to help him. All he said was to call the police.
It’s an image file, you can download it and blow it up in your image software.
I used FastStone image viewer, it’s pretty good and simple to operate. just google for it.
I, too, am seeing your works linked at multiple sites discussing this tragedy. Good job!
Just for anyone awaiting Judge KL’s ruling to stay or remove himself for the case might not happen for a while according to Orlando Sentinel. They say he is out of office for this week and the next, IIRC.
No, CommonSense, it was not directed at you when I wrote it. This blog is not the whole world. I was talking about reactions in general to this witness and her testimony. I was also remarking on how many commenters (here and elsewhere) take the line of ” i was assaulted/molested therefore…….I know how it feels/know she’s telling the truth”. That is not how we determine truth.
“..Apparently, in Florida, sexual penetration of minors is all good if the perpetrator is under 24..”
Not so. A person over 18 may consent to sex with anyone older than 24. Between the ages of 16 and 18 a person may consent only with a partner who is between 16 and 24. Under 16 there is no legal consent. If two 15 year olds decide to have sex, they are both officially committing statutory rape.
However, statutory rape just means the person’s consent was not legally valid, not that they didn’t intend to consent. It is not RAPE in the normal sense of the word. Nor is digital penetration. Nor is fondling or grabbing the breasts etc. Sexual assault but not rape. To call it that is an affront to and a serious trivialising of the experience of REAL rape victims. You know, those that were forced to have intercourse while being strangled or stabbed or bashed on the head with a rock or tied up and held prisoner for days. That kind of real rape.
“EVIDENCE says Zimmerman raped a family member and later apoligized for it. That’s not based on anybody’s expertise. It is based on the facts released in accordance with Florida’s sunshine laws.”
No external evidence. A statement about assaults, not about rape. This time I do direct it at you — please do not exaggerate an already irrelevant claim, and especially not in the same breath as accusing the media of bias and “click-appeal” and twisting things.
The testimony is likely true, but produced at this time only to show GZ to have bad character, which may be very true. It may or may not become admissible in the murder trial, which is what it purports to be evidence for. But exaggerating it IS an attempt to demonise him, which is behaviour we have come to expect from the other side, not here.
Or are we now going to say “it was murder and our proof is that he is a demon?” what happened to “our proof is that he stalked his victim who availed himself of his right to SYG?”
Let me know when everybody’s tired of this tabloid detour and some genuine evidence about the murder shows up.
“No external evidence. A statement about assaults, not about rape. This time I do direct it at you — please do not exaggerate an already irrelevant claim, and especially not in the same breath as accusing the media of bias and “click-appeal” and twisting things.”
Now, I have no idea what you are talking about. Click-appeal is done for bucks usually. The media does it sell ads and boost their stats to sell ads in the future. Comments on blogs are generally not for click-appeal. They are just opinions.
We will have to agree to disagree on the rape of Zimmerman’s family member W9 being irrelevant. I find W9 credible and relevant if the prosecution calls on her for testimony as a rebuttal witness.
I am wondering if there is a criminal investigation into Mark Osterman for obstruction, and if not, why not. Did he know Bill Lee when they worked in the same department?
Aussie’s comment sticks with me…
“GZ says a bit impatiently ‘just tell her I just shot somebody’ because she knows the rest already.”
That comment, especially the use of the word “just,” has always seemed a bit odd. I guess I just chalked it up to the fact people aren’t necessarily articulate at moments of high stress. But the “just” makes sense if, as Aussie says, she already knows the set-up. And it makes sense if GZ is already calculating that there are things NOT to tell.
It really is inconsistent with his story. If you were on your way to Target, and got waylaid into a fatal encounter, you’d have to tell a loved one more than that wouldn’t you? I mean, they would wonder if you wound up in the middle of a robbery at Target, or somebody tried to carjack your Ridgeline or WTF.
Does anyone know whether GZ called anyone from the SPD after he was taken into custody, and whether any calls he made were logged, observed or taped? He must have… how else would Shellie have known to move the truck? Such a call might be very revealing. If, in such a call, he didn’t explain the whole thing from the beginning it would be a strong indication that she knew he was going out to look for a supposed intruder.
I hope the prosecutors subpoena Osterman’s phone records, as well as those for any and all phones, land or cell, belonging to GZ or SZ. I’m guessing that if MO was already at The Retreat, SZ would not be smart enough to place a fake call to him to “request his help.” And even if she did, it would establish a timeframe for how long it would take him to get from Lake Mary to The Retreat. In other words, it may be relatively easy to prove he was there before he says he was.
If indeed it was Osterman, not Zimmerman, who saw Martin walking out from behind Frank Taaffe’s townhome, that would explain an anomaly in the timeline. DeeDee places TM under the mailbox awning at 6:45. It is impossible for him to have been there that early, and for George Zimmerman to have observed him “walking around… looking at all the houses.” Thus, I have wondered if DeeDee is mistaken about what happened when, or whether she just assumed he was under the mailbox awning in The Retreat when he was actually under an entrance awning in the apartment complex just to the West of The Retreat.
BUT, lets say Osterman drives into The Retreat just after 6:40. He sees Trayvon emerge from behind Taaffe’s unit, cross the street and continue behind the townhomes on RVC along the path toward the pool. He continues to the Zimmerman’s. As he drives the rest of the way, exits his car, and explains what he just saw to GZ, Trayvon continues toward home, but the rain picks up and he ducks under the mailbox awning.
Data from the Ravenna Park weather station, the closest to The Retreat shows the rainfall in inches:
So, the beginning of the rain would have Trayvon taking refuge at about 6:45, which is when he calls DeeDee. But the rain is just falling harder, and Trayvon has no reason to leave the awning, since chatting with DeeDee is his main objective and he’s in no hurry to get the Arizona and Skittles back to Chad.
Meanwhile, there’s enough time for GZ to get into the Ridgeline and start driving around, checking to see if the ‘goon’ is still there. And this scenario fits with tchoupi’s deduced path of GZ’s vehicle based on the clubhouse videos. If GZ had been observing TM walking, this path makes no sense — with GZ passing the clubhouse, going through the intersection, making a U-turn, passing the clubhouse again in the other direction, making another U-turn, and only them turning right onto TTL. This is not the path of a person who has been observing someone and following them, but the path of a person looking for something.
And if tchoupi is right, GZ finds what he’s looking for as he pauses by the mailboxes, then retreats to a more discreet surveillance point by going East on TTL and making another U-turn.
If DeeDee is correct about the time and place, and if tchoupi’s analysis is correct, then Trayvon was in the same spot, by the mailboxes, when GZ left his home until GZ spotted him there. And the only way GZ could have been looking for someone whose location he did not know was if SOMEONE ELSE TOLD HIM THERE WAS SOMEONE TO LOOK FOR!!
Now, from GZ’s point of view, the fact that the guy Osterman (or possibly Taaffe) had spotted was still outside “hanging around,” may well have fueled his suspicion, and when Trayvon finally left the mailbox area, GZ had no idea he was simply heading for home, and may well have interpreted the fact that the young man walked toward his truck as an act of aggression. “Now he’s coming towards me… Something’s wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out.. he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.” (At this point, GZ has no reason to lie about TM, this is what he thinks is going on…)
TM passes the truck, giving it a wide berth (“circling” in GZ’s later formulation), and after he passes it (with who knows what kind of eye contact between him and GZ) he breaks off running to make sure he gets away from the truck. But GZ gets out and chases him. Trayvon realizes this, takes evasive action, and GZ loses sight of him. Somehow (and we may never learn exactly what happened) the two men wound up scuffling in John’s backyard a few minutes later, and…
…Speaking of witnesses, why in heaven’s name have the investigators NOT interviewed Shellie Zimmerman? Wouldn’t they want her to confirm GZ’s account of when he left home, and where he was going? Wouldn’t they want to know when and how she heard of the incident, when she went to move the truck, and how she knew to do so? (Yes! I want more perjury counts for She-lie!! :0 )
But again, if all she heard was a short call from Jonathan relaying George’s message of “Just tell her I shot someone.” she would know generally where and how that had happened — if and only if she had been privy to the knowledge that George was going out to look for an intruder which she could only know if someone had delivered information about a suspected intruder to the Zimmerman home before George left, which could have been a phone call from Frank Taaffe, but more likely an in person account from Mark Osterman.
I feel the pieces of the puzzle starting to fit together here… Perhaps the fates will curse such hubris and the next evidence release will scatter the pieces anew. But for now, what do you all think?
Whonoze, I really like that analysis. Thanks.
It looks like GZ knew there was someone suspicious walking east on RVC. He would have driven passed RVC/TTL junction when he noticed him at the mailboxes. Then he made a u-turn driving slowly to check that what he briefly saw was indeed a person at the mailboxes awning. Then, he decided to confront TM, so he made another u-turn by the clubhouse turned right on TTL and stopped by the mailboxes.
I think this is brilliant. It explains why the narrative started for Treyvon and DeeDee at the mailboxes. This is when Treyvon first mentions being watched. If MO paused and stared at Treyvon on the way in, this would have been some other dude to Treyvon. There would have been no reason to connect these two in his head.Two completely different cars.
I also think it’s time that MO and SZ faced some more questions.
A lot of people could potentially face punishment for George’s murder of Treyvon. The bodies are really racking up. Now we add O’Mara for lying to the court, and MO and SZ for potentially tampering with murder evidence. I hope the other family members involved in money moving also feel the heat.
I question if GZ really did spot Trayvon hanging around at the cut-through. If Trayvon did come in that way I can’t see him lingering around on someone’s front lawn checking out the houses, and besides it’s too much of a coincidence he actually saw him there first. In the reenactment GZ brings up one of his previous reports of a would be burglar who got away after hanging around a friends residence at the cut through area, which we know he was likely speaking about his friend Taafe and his house . I don’t know if it was the same incident but did you notice on one of his previous dispatch calls he gives a description of another black guy who went to the back entrance? When he adds the part about seeing TM lingering at the cut-through location it was meant to further justify his reason for reporting someone who was suspected as being “up to no good”. I don’t doubt he got a tip off from someone that TM was walking in the neighborhood so decided to take a drive until he got to the north end of RVC and it was there he first spotted TM sheltering at the clubhouse. George had already made up his delusional mind that here was another would be burglar that always gets away so he was determined he would get his man this time. He is a master at embellishment with the so called circling incident and also saying TM attacked him at the top of the T entrance and then shortly after threatened to kill him when he saw the gun. I am absolutely sure he rehearsed all of his tall tail beforehand to justify his actions and claim self defense.
Wow — excellent! Love the weather analysis.
Very good point: “It really is inconsistent with his story. If you were on your way to Target, and got waylaid into a fatal encounter, you’d have to tell a loved one more than that wouldn’t you? I mean, they would wonder if you wound up in the middle of a robbery at Target, or somebody tried to carjack your Ridgeline or WTF.”
I’m confused by this part…
“DeeDee places TM under the mailbox awning at 6:45. It is impossible for him to have been there that early, and for George Zimmerman to have observed him “walking around… looking at all the houses.””
“Thus, I have wondered if DeeDee is mistaken about what happened when, or whether she just assumed he was under the mailbox awning in The Retreat when he was actually under an entrance awning in the apartment complex just to the West of The Retreat.”
I remember reading or hearing that people would take refuge from the rain under the gutters/roofs near the northwest opening. I think I read/heard this before knowing Taaffe’s address.
It’s been so long since I’ve listened to the PD interrogation tapes, but isn’t he asked something about his wife/calling her, and if she’d be worried. I thought he said something like no then explained how she was able to move the vehicle. Ugh! I can’t remember. I just remember thinking his response was weird.
I don’t think DeeDee places TM at the mailboxes at 6:45.
6:45 is about the earliest time TM could have arrived there assuming he walked (no sprinting) all the way from the 7-11 leaving at 6:32.
DeeDee uses call breaks as time markers. Hence we can conclude that TM could have been at the mailboxes by 6:54. In other words, TM is expected to arrive at the awning between 6:45 & 6:54.
There was a time when we were wondering how GZ could have noticed TM and be parked on TTL. In terms of probability, assuming TM & GZ were moving to their respective destination,
1) the lowest probability was that TM came in from the north entrance & GZ drove via LOW & TTL toward the north gate (no overlap of paths) ,
2) the 2nd lowest probability was that TM came in from the north entrance & GZ drove on RVC toward the north gate (minimum overlap of paths), &
3) the highest odds were that TM came thru the north-west cut and walked east-ward on RVC toward the clubhouse as GZ did.
Then the idea that GZ may have been tipped off by FT looked very attractive because, we then have the observer fixed somewhere on the path of the observed which explodes the chances of the two meeting at any moment.
Personally, I was giving more importance to the fact that TM actually stopped at the mailboxes. That came with DeeDee’s statement. Again, with one party fixed on the path of the other, the odds off en encounter explode. in this case, anybody driving to/from the north gate may have noticed him. Anybody includes GZ, assuming he really was going shopping.
However, what I haven’t thought about is that Anybody could be a 3rd party who would call GZ. In this case, FT but also MO are of interest.
I definitely think that notification is more likely than a happenstance encounter. It looks to me that GZ, by saying that he picks up TM at Taaffe’s in the cut through, he’s cutting out Osterman and Taaffe as possible sources of any alert.
The “just tell her I shot someone”, if he already knows that Osterman is there, means she’s going to automatically ask him what she should do. Osterman knows what needs to be done, because he knows crime scene investigation procedure. He knows that the location and possibly the contents of the truck could be evidence, that might conflict with or confirm a very bad story, since GZ should not have been either armed or following any suspects.
So, to protect GZ from controversy, Osterman knows the truck has to be removed from exposure to search. He also knows this is a crime in itself, so he’ll try to use Shellie as cover and take her along. But he knows they’ll have to move fast, before the police realize that GZ has a vehicle in the vicinity.
I think also, that Osterman is wandering around the scene later, to pick up intelligence that GZ can use. By telling the police what to do, he also inspires them to reply with bits of info. Perhaps he also uses jargon to convince witnesses that he’s with the police? Who knows what he could learn and do to alter the course of the investigation, and/or provide GZ with help in constructing his story.
Of course, like I said before, that a teen who has no experience with fighting, could bring a professional bouncer to near death, is palpable fiction!
If Osterman (or Taafe) told GZ about TM, that also could account for some of GZ’s high level of suspicion. We’ve been assuming he actually saw Trayvon walking around, and sort of hallucinated Trayvon’s innocent behavior as sinister. But I’m now thinking the first time GZ actually saw Martin was while the lad was hiding from the rain under the mailbox awning. So GZ was interpreting a verbal report of Trayvon’s behavior, not the behavior itself. Whoever told him of spotting the young man may have embellished a bit, and the difference between hearing about and seeing certain leaves room for imagination to take hold and color things — like the distortions in a game of ‘Telephone.’
Looking back at GZ police call. He says:
“There’s a real suspicious guy… This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or
he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about …looking at all the houses.
“Now he’s just staring at me.”
This is all from the first 45 seconds of the call. Notice that GZ doesn’t use the first person: “I just saw a suspicious guy.” The more vague “There is a guy…” would fit with someone else having ‘established’ that ‘fact.’ I’ve already noted that basically everyone in this case uses the present tense in calls to the police when describing things that have already happened, so “he’s walking around looking at the houses” is not what GZ is seeing as he reports it one way or the other. But the word “Now,” clearly establishes the beginning of an actual present tense account, and where is TM at the time? At the mailboxes.
NMLE: In her interview with BdlR, DeeDee says Trayvon was at the mailboxes when the call dropped and she called him back. She’s very clear in describing the mailboxes at The Retreat, but I’ve thought she may have filled this in after the fact. But, again, assuming she’s not, since she called TM at 6:49 and again at 6:54, that would place TM at the mailboxes no later than 6:54. Which would mean he was in one spot for at least 15 minutes before GZ called the cops, which just doesn’t fit with GZ having observed TM entering through the shortcut. Tracking back from the 7:09:34 start of the call, GZ probably left his townhome around 7:05, give or take. It would take TM about two minutes to walk from the shortcut to the mailbox awning, so if DeeDee’s accurate here, that would put TM at the shortcut no later than 6:52.
Folks here have asked, ‘who takes a gun with them while running errands at Target?’ In Florida, maybe lots of people. The empirical question, though, which could be answered by investigation, is ‘was George Zimmerman in the habit of carrying his gun at all times, including shopping trips?’ If not, that would add to the likelihood that he left home to check on a suspected burglar, rather than everyday errands.
I can’t see this tragic incident occuring at all unless someone saw TM coming from behind Taaffe’s unit at the shortcut. Regardless of who saw that, it’s still an unlikely coincidence of timing. Since I now think it extremely unlike that GZ himself spotted TM at the shortcut, that leaves Taaffe and Osterman, and of the two Osterman is a more likely candidate for a variety of reasons. And if it was Osterman, had he arrived at The Retreat two or three minutes earlier or later than he did, nothing would have happened.
Real sharp analysis Whonoze. I’m impressed.
Or if he’d not been like-minded enough about “intruders” to bother mentioning it to GZ as a matter of (mutual) interest. I know when I visit friends, I don’t give them a rundown on who I saw 4 blocks away on my trip. Not even if I thought they look odd or out of place. I’d mention something that may interest them eg “Hey there’s an icecream van headed this way, shall we get some?”
Guns to Target? well here in Australia we don’t carry guns (and Target sells clothes and furnishings, but not food).
But I leave my phone at home when I leave the house to go for a walk (for exercise). I take it with me when I leave the house to walk to the corner to investigate a smashing or screaming noise. Why? because I know I might need it.
But GZ said (and again I can’t give the link) he carried all the time except when at work. But I doubt that means he sits around his own house all day armed to the teeth, so he’d have grabbed the gun when he went out to check MO’s tip-off, OR already had it on him in preparation for going shopping.
If in fact he had had to borrow money from MO, that’s one more embarrassment that a good hero act would make him feel less bad about.
I think this is in general a likely scenario, with qualifications. A couple of quick points to consider:
SZ could easily refuse to answer questions from investigators. She’s got zero obligation, as did GZ, to answer questions or give statements without a lawyer present.
W13 who took pics with his iPhone and was on the phone with SZ isn’t clear if he mentioned his location when he first reached SZ, so the “just tell her I shot someone” isn’t indicative that she knew where to look for a truck without being told.
GZ marked a spot on a map at the first bend in TTL where he stopped his car, but quickly crossed it out. Placing Z’s car in this spot removes contradictions and solves inconsistencies in his statements to police and lines up well with the recorded NE call. It’s also a prime spot to watch someone at the “mail-shed thing” from.
Osterman has admitted being on the scene AND apparently speaking to both cops AND to GZ when he spoke to FDLE.
Osterman seems the prime suspect to coach GZ on the scripted portions of his false narrative. The verbal death threat delivered BEFORE the teen allegedly goes for the gun always struck me as ridiculous. What sort of fool would notice an opponent is armed and then issue a threat before reaching for the gun, much less getting the gun away from his opponent? Makes no sense, and when RZ sr tells it, TM issues the threat, and goes back to pounding GZ’s head and never reaches for the gun. This is a script, and a clumsy one IMO.
IMO TM ran away from GZ who was MOVING his car behind TM along TTL. Right after “these axxholes always get away” you can hear him put the car into gear (reverse, probably) and then into another gear seconds later. TM seemingly moves for 30 more seconds until “sh*t, he’s running” is heard and this is the slow motion chase. Regardless of the gearshift sounds being correct or not, the 30 second “long tail” suggests that TM would have been out of sight from GZ were he parked at his final “Frank Taafee/ according to george” position (but facing the cut thru). GZ claims when played the recorded NE call that he is “by the clubhouse” and indeed he was – just not in the parking lot. He’s at the first corner, facing the clubhouse.
GZ also claims he was at RVC when he said “he ran” which is impossible. He’s at the T
I was also wondering what information she was given to meet MO at the crime scene. Jonathan Manalo doesn’t say. But, I also had to admit that she could have just noticed the sudden increase in police traffic on RVC. I’ve counted 5 vehicles on RVC coming from the north gate after T. Smith arrival. Neighbors may have noticed.
I also believe GZ moved his truck to follow TM once he passed him. But it is impossible to show. Only the NEN call is indicative of GZ suddenly maneuvering his truck.
I have missed quite a bit of information concerning Mark Osterman.
Does anyone knows where he lives? I know he lives in Lake Mary, but I’m not sure how far he lives from the Retreat At Tween Lakes.
Does anyone knows if he was already at the Z’s place at the time of the shooting or if SZ called him to ask for help? Time was short. GZ was handcuffed at ~7:20 and it is only then that JM (W13) called SZ. GZ was already at SPD station at 7:51 which is ~15min away from the crime scene. So, SZ & MO had less then 20min to get the information and meet at the crime scene. It is not much of a problem for SZ as she could have walked there. But, if MO was home, he wouldn’t have much time, and adding that SPD locked the complex doesn’t help.
my story is like this (and this is why I was sweating on that bank video coming out, weeks ago):
MO takes money from the ATM and drives out of the bank at 6.40. He is going to visit GZ (I’m guessing the withdrawal, visit and planned shopping trip are embarrassingly connected). He sees a “Goon gang-member” walking on Oregon Ave. He arrives GZ’s place. . He mentions this casually. GZ goes out leaving MO with SZ, expecting to be away only a short time.
When the short time expires, MO and SZ can hear sirens incoming, lots of them. This tells them something is going down right there in that estate. SZ gets a call from a known? neighbour saying err ummm err I’m calling about George and errr…….. and he interrupts with ” oh, just tell her I shot somebody”. In other words “it’s ok it’s NOT ME GOT SHOT “. 2+2 = follow the flashing lights.
MO drives SZ and they’re there within a minute. Or they go in separate cars tho’ that makes less sense. MO states he didn’t speak to GZ or the cops “in detail”. So he DID speak, could be when they decided to take his truck home. SZ drives the truck home, prepares change of clothing (MO would tell her the cops will want his clothes for evidence). MO finishes interfering with the investigation, picks her up at home, sits with her at the cop shop (Aussie word) until they’re ready to let him go.
So, MO got involved in the truck-moving, waiting with SZ etc because he was involved from the word go. He set it all in motion by noticing Trayvon walking along Oregon Ave and saying so.
I probably shouldn’t toot my own horn, but I did predict the W9 flap over a month ago: http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/trifecta/
Like many, I thought W9 was GZ’s ex-fiance, but this is part of what I wrote:
“If W9′s charges against GZ hit the media eye, it’s pretty easy to conjecture about what will happen next. Her credibility will be resoundingly attacked, and her testimony discounted as the delusional ranting of a vengeful ‘ex.’ Limbaugh will have a field day with her, Hannity and others will probably pile on as well, but Rush will use that special talent of his to stand out. At which point every advocate for victims of domestic violence will be called to arms, demanding that the public (and the court) ‘Believe the women!’ and cursing all who would ‘Blame the victim.'”
I don’t listen to either Limbaugh or Hannity, who may well have abandoned GZ in favor of full-time Obama-trashing, leaving the field for dissing W9 to Jeralynn at TalkLeft. And of course, the cousin is being painted as both delusional and vengeful in a way the ‘ex’ might not have been. But I’m still feeling a little prescient today. Hold your applause, please! 🙂 I’m sure I can manage to look the fool again soon enough…
WHEEEEEEEEEE!!! kudos whonoze
I’ll hold my applause, but will you accept a pat on the back? 🙂
Always happy to read your analysis/commentary.
There is an upside for Treyvon’s side that has been reluctantly conceded over at TalkLeft. (And yes, the vengeful, delusional talk is in full swing over there, it’s painful). O’Mara now does not dare bring in any folks speaking to George’s good character at the trial. Not one of these Zimmermanians will get to vouch for him. If they do it opens up the character question for the state, This lady can be introduced to the jury to counter their claims. This domineering, abusive character flaw in George could then be the straw that breaks the camel’s back with a closed-minded juror.
She now functions as nuclear deterrence. And it’s going to be hell for her from now on.
Compare this with what we know of Treyvon: tattooes of all the significant mothers in his life, talking to a girlfriend on the phone, a heart on his phone for heaven’s sakes. DeeDee said he spoke about missing his mother. He was working on getting into college. I won my husband over with the fact that Treyvon liked aviation. I’m not aware that anyone has yet alleged that Treyvon was anything other that a totally normal, just turned 17 year old, decent kid.
The other thing weighing heavily on my mind is that zimmerman didn’t really have any family ties for a judge to rely on to ensure his bond. I had read early on that zimmerman was estranged from his family and now, with w9’s, the ex-fiance’s and MO’s statements, we get a glimpse into why.
“O’Mara now does not dare bring in any folks speaking to George’s good character at the trial”
AND THAT is why she is relevant. He just put OMara in check. There is the evidence and there is TRIAL STRATEGY. Bernie just cleared the deck of bs and that is why we see this appearance on Fox and an attempt to try this case in the media.
Tangentially – I believe that many people want to believe this is NOT relevant or will never make it to trial because of the nature of her accusation. The silence around and turning away from child sexual abuse must…MUST…stop. The knee-jerk reaction to discount her based on nothing more than framing around this issue hurts so many and has to end.
” Bernie just cleared the deck of bs and that is why we see this appearance on Fox and an attempt to try this case in the media.”
That’s how I see it, too. I hope Bernie D’s strategy works.
In Florida 794 statute covers sex with a minor and it is a felony. I further disagree agee with your view that is simply means that the person is under a certain age, the victim in this case was unwilling. I will also remind you that in the case of Sandusky case, there also was a lack of phyiscal evidence yet a jury found Sandusky guilty of 45 counts. As to the issues of GZ, the core of this case is as many have pointed out his honesty, or lack of it. Is GZ a concerned citizen who overeacted to see someone he did not know, thinking TM was attempting to commit some crime and in GZ made a mistake that resulted in the death of TM, as GZ states self defense. Or was GZ acting out some cop fantasy as Investigator Sernio say it. Or is GZ a pededator, with a long history of preying on people, bullying them and then acting inoccent, a master malnipulator to get his way. As I said before the core of this is GZ being honest and as one lawyer put it, that is in the toliet. As more and more infromation come to light, in my view, GZ has a long history of anti social behavior that has now come to the death of TM and he is doing everything he can to escape responsibily. That is evidence.
I think Zimmerman is smart but chose to use his knowledge to do bad things. I think he is shocked to learn that the people supporting him are bigots. I don’t think he realized his racial views were the same as theirs until he saw who his supporters were.
One of the jail calls (call #30) discusses Sean Hannity’s offer to pay for his legal defense if he used “JB” (joe baez).
I agree somewhat although I think that the sexual abuse may not be relevant. What is relevant is her position as an insider in this family for so long. What she says will have the effect of countering anything that comes out of the not-so-trustworthy Zimmerman branch. Though the press insist on lying about it, she did come forward just days after the death. She has obviously seen how manipulative he is and felt that she had to speak out. The chickens have come to roost!
@San San B –
I read also that W9 is married with kids. Basically, I take that to mean she has moved on with her life. She also seems to not have wanted to be involved but felt a higher moral duty to speak up.
John, I was saying that an under-age person is breaking the law even if they intend to consent, because the law says their consent is not valid on account of their age. Get it? That does not make them “felons” or “criminals” in the character sense of being evil people. Unless you want to say all those millions of kids who have sex under age are all evil and should be in prison and/or on a sex offenders list somewhere. What nonsense.
The consent laws apply to sex as in sexual intercourse. Kissing, cuddling, fondling, fingering etc do not count as sex in this respect. If such things are done without a person’s consent then they constitute assault, the same way as hitting them would. But not rape, statutory or otherwise.
It is considered more serious if done to a minor, in both sexual and non-sexual cases. The same way as shooting someone dead is considered more serious if done to a minor, because the laws generally try to give extra protection to children.
The point I was trying to make is that sexual assault does NOT equal RAPE. And that characterising what happened to this witness as rape is trivialising the experience of real rape victims, while the exaggeration is an act of demonising GZ.
The Sandusky case was ABOUT sexual assault. In such a case a string of separate independent witnesses making similar claims do add up to proof that he did it habitually. In a murder case the testimony that the accused “also” assaulted someone (in a non-life-threatening way) does nothing for proving the murder. It just says the accused is not of good character — which is neither here nor there in proving murder.
Many people of generally bad character never commit murder, and many murders are committed by people of previously good character. This witness’s testimony will become relevant ONLY if character evidence is to be brought at the trial. Meanwhile all it does is show GZ is not a nice person, which we know already from how many lies he’s told.
What these incidents say about his psychology also don’t add up to evidence of murderous intent; at best they may rebut a suggestion that he never sought to take advantage of being in a position of power.
All the character evidence may do is give a little insight into WHY he may have done what he did… especially the trying to cover it up afterwards. It does not show motive. It very definitely does not show METHOD and that is what we need here — evidence of how the events unfolded, in order to show how the confrontation started and who started it.
As I said before, even if someone has previous conviction for murder, that is not PROOF that he committed THIS one. All it does is make it hard for him to say “I would never d that” if there’s proof he has in fact done it before.
Now please let’s get back to dealing in FACTS which this blog seemed to be doing very well at until this distraction.
then there is nothing left to talk about…all the interviews with colleagues, his ex’s testimony, his previous assaults…can not be mentioned because they don’t have anything to do with this case. I don’t think there has been a great deal of discussion on this molestation issue,far less than where the car is parked, what shellie said, passport and money discussions but there has been no complaints about those topics. The focus changes all the time. I have seen some things that i don’t think have much merit in this case as well, so i just don’t enter into the discussion and leave it to those who do think it’s important. But once again, i don’t understand the fuss. Scroll back, there has not been very much discussion on this topic, especially not the graphic details.
“If such things are done without a person’s consent then they constitute assault, the same way as hitting them would. But not rape, statutory or otherwise.”
Ah. I think I get it now. I think you’re saying it’s legally considered “assault” as opposed to rape. I thought it was statutory rape. Thanks for the correction.
I think @aussie’s main concern is she(?) doesn’t want this to get like CT/gossip site.
@aussie…are you concerned in the case that her statement is false/unsubstantiated, and if that comes to light that it will negatively influence potential jurors?
statutory rape is having consensual sex with a minor (depends on the law in that state/country) It is statutory rape because the underage person is not considered old/mature enough to make such a decision. But if both are under age then it doesn’t apply. Rape is penetration against someones will, but it differs. Sometimes digital penetration is considered rape, sometimes sexual battery, it depends on the states laws.
I think she’s made a big mistake bringing this up.
1) it is unlikely to lead to his being charged with any of it
2) if he is, she will be accused of making it up, largely because of the timing and method of her bringing it up
3) it is admissible in the murder trial only if character evidence is going to be admitted at all
4) in that case they’ll try ripping her to shreds in the murder trial
5) the effect on the jury will be negative whether she ends up proving it’s true or not – the defence will just argue these are attempts to demonise the accused BECAUSE the case is weak on facts.
It won’t help the case against GZ at all.
She can’t win. She’s just re-opened a can of worms she was trying to forget. Even with it never going to any court she is being demonised by the pro_Z camp already.
Meanwhile the pro-Z are screaming “another Duke case” and using it to drum up more money for him.
@ Jo “…all the interviews with colleagues, his ex’s testimony, his previous assaults…can not be mentioned …”
That is quite possible. All these help us form an image of the man, what his personality is like, to help us on possible motives or how/why he may have acted/reacted a certain way.
The prosecution has to stick to the facts of the case. They can’t just dump in everything bad they know about someone, and tell the jury to convict him for murder just because he’s an all-round bad guy.
If the defence, even just in cross-examination, brings up the subject of his “‘good” character, THEN the door is opened to character references, and THEN the prosecution can introduce evidence about bad character.
The accused’s previous convictions are never admissible either, except if brought in through this “back door”.
The evidence dumps include every interview the various investigators did. That does not mean all or any of those will be actually used in court.
Leatherman’s blog is excellent on these legal aspects of the evidence.
hi aussie, i totally get what you are saying, of course nothing he has done in the past proves he is guilty of man 2 in this case, but the way he allegedly dealt with this W9 has comparisons to the way he dealt with his ex and fits a pattern of contol that he seems to have. I think most people here have stuck to those sorts of discussions and not delved into the sordid details so i don’t have a problem with it. Of course there have been so many false accusations of such things that we can’t just blindly believe it all, but there are certain aspects that are interesting in regards to the way George operates. Whether it will be used at trial i have no idea. I don’t think this blog has degenerated at all though, it really isn’t something that could be completely ignored, and i think considering the “holy shit” factor of this accusation we have all been pretty restrained and i’m sure it will stay that way.
As for W9, i also think things will get tough for her, and i hope she has a strong support system around her because she is gonna need it. She is already being vilified by Zim supporters, her identity outed and credibility questioned. I can only think that when she heard what had happened her emotions took over and she did what her heart told her to instead of her head. I hope it doesn’t come into evidence because if her allegations are true then she will be violated all over again. She has the weight of the world on her shoulders i’m sure, and will be pushed and pulled in all directions from family members that support her or be angry with her, it’s a really tough place for her to be in.
If her call turns out to be bogus (and I don’t think it is), one would have to wonder why someone in his family has such hatred for him to make something like that up.
i think all rape is traumatic though, it doesn’t have to be brutal beatings to leave life long scars. When you trust someone, like a family member or a religious leader and are taken advantage of it can cause all sorts of hell in your life. Often it happens more than once and the victim has to deal with guilt and confusion. If it is a family member you may get called a liar or feel responsible for the family breaking up. It is not always forced because you trust the person, but might think it’s wrong and end up dealing with the feelings for the rest of your life. So i think it’s hard to define ‘real’ rape as opposed to assault. Legally it is whatever the state/country determines it to e, but it doesn’t have to be brutal to constitute rape, often the emotional scars hurt more than the physical ones.
sorry what i meant to say at the end was that i don’t think brutal rape is trivialised by calling other less physical encounters rape. The scars can be just as deep from any violation.
Sorry, Jo, have to disagree with you on that.
Any assault can leave scars, that is not in dispute. The size/depth of the scars may depend not only on the physical injuries caused, that is also not in dispute. I’m also not disputing this witness has trauma from her past dealings with GZ.
But what she describes cannot be called “rape”. Because it isn’t.
There is a substantial difference of degree. It’s the same as GZ calling his scratches “life-threatening injuries”.
I’d just like to see everyone keeping a level head and balanced terminology about this. None of us called GZ a brutal thug based on his known assault history. None of us should be calling him a rapist based on this testimony. We can call him a killer because he’s admitted to it; we can’t call him a murderer until he’s convicted of it, even if we are seeking to prove what he did was indeed murder.
i do understand what you are saying, but there are varying degrees of sexual assault too and i would say what this witness has described is on the more serious side. For instance, some drunken bum grabbing your boob before passing out at the office christmas party doesn’t deserve the tag of rapist, but it can be classed as sexual assault. So on one end of the scale you have a drunken boob grab…and the other end of the scale you have repeated sexual groping/assault/intimidation by a family member, but they are both considered sexual assault. Which to me kind of trivialises the seriousness of the latter situation. Anyway, i say a lot of words but then i read it back and still don’t think i am explaining what i mean very well. I don’t think any of the comments here were attempts at demonising, we are all pretty good at keeping ourselves in check and none of us want to stoop to the standards of the nuthouse and i really don’t think we have at all.
Thanks for the kind words!!
I was wondering why I wasn’t getting any follow ups. I missed so much. Trying to catch up.
Morning from where I am, Loree! Good to “see” you. Are you replying to a post or creating new one? Just wondering if the comments are messed up again, lol. I was a bit confused by the previous post of “Follow.”
Im not getting follow up posts!!! I had posted the jailhouse calls and was wondering why the blog was not commented for two days.
QETNO, please pass along a post to NLME.
NLME please fix!!!
Loree, double check to make sure you have selected both options to be notified of follow-up comments and new posts. Also, have you checked your spam filter? I’m not sure why you aren’t getting comment replies sent to you. Keep checking back manually, and hopefully we can get it figured out why you’re not getting new posts!
I got your email and I think i fixed it!!!
I have to read three days worth, geeezzzz
It’s resolved? If not, I’m confused but will take a deeper look.
Awesome to hear it’s fixed!
Thanks for your help.
I am now getting updated. I tried to keep up through this blog because its the best. I am working very long hours now, and can’t post as regularly as I did before, so i am relying on you guys to keep me informed.
What do you guys think is going to be the bombshell that prosecution will drop at the trial? Is it the phone records? They keep hinting that they have not released everything yet. Under whatever laws, they have to give defense everything, which then gets made public per sunshine rules. However, what they don’t have to “give” defense are things that they already have, such as GZ’s or SZ’s own phone records, so that’s why we won’t see them until the trial. Am I interpreting that right?
Zimmerman’s phone records/emails will definitely be used at the trial. They are currently sealed. I’m not sure about his personal computer, Shellie’s/Osterman’s/Jon’s phone records, etc.
I imagine a lot could be answered by the records but I’ve labeled Zimmerman as somebody that would never pull the trigger if there was a trail.
NLME, your labeling of GZ in this instance may be right, but as you’ve said, there’s just so much of “we’ll have to just wait and see….”
And what of 4 7 and 10…
I am still waiting…..
I can easily suspect that MO’s advice on that would be very helpful in reducing the chance of leaving any such trails. MO certainly cut himself a starring role in the matter, I seriously doubt that he meant to do that. But then, for 46 days this thing did stay local and not result in a more thorough investigation, starting early on. So, I’d guess he believed that taking the vehicle away, is something that would just fall through the cracks, and his role along with it.
@nmle – “I’ve labeled Zimmerman as somebody that would never pull the trigger if there was a trail.”
Hmmm…considering how quickly the events of the night quickly unfolded, I’m not willing to give GZ that much credit. Some have called him “smart”, but I will respectfully disagree. I feel that GZ thinks he’s smart, but actually, he’s nothing more than a bully, and a liar(bad one at that), he believes he has the ability to make people believe anything he says is true. I came to the realization that he’s quite dim-witted after learning of the attempts to hide donated money days before first bond hearing, by speaking ‘giberish'(it’s silly to even say it was speakin in ‘code’) and then watching the awful reenactment. I feel there are many things in his past that he’s gotten away with, whether it was orchestrated by his parents or not, that have given him this false sense of authority and delusions of grandeur. IMO, GZ is a ‘figment’ of his own imaginaiton.
I think Zimmerman is fully capable of pulling a trigger. I think he has little hesitation pulling a trigger if he thinks he’s “hunting” an animal.
so this article doesn’t have any new information but there are some comments from O’Mara that i found odd. The woman said the alleged abuse stopped when George was 18, but O’Mara says it supposedly stopped when he was 17. If all the information came from the woman then on whose authority is he changing the age on? Either George gave him info saying he was 17, or O’Mara is simply putting the age of 17 out there because 17 is still a minor. I’m sure she said he was 18.
I think it’s being said that he was a year and a half older than her, and at the time she alleges the incident occurred, he was still 17.
oh ok thanks, i thought she said 18, my bad.
No worries. She did say 18. They are saying at the time she is alleging, he wasn’t 18, and that she essentially rounded the age up to an even number. I’m going to let the prosecution and defense sort her statement/allegations out.
oh now i get it…don’t worry about me, i go from 0 to 60 in 24 hours…actually i don’t usually get to 60 because i have to lay down and have a nap…haha
I feel ya on that! Naps are definitely my friend…
If GZ were 18 and she younger, that’s an (alleged) crime – statutory rape, possibly. IANAL. MO’M has to go on the record quickly to try and establish a defense for this alleged crime.
Again, the question a reported needs to ask MO’M is “does GZ deny that a meeting took place with the parents where GZ said he was sorry for the sexual misconduct?” He can dodge the question once or twice but not three times.
These were allegations that were reported to parents, and the parents witnessed GZ admitting the truth of the allegations IMO, and all of this happened a long time before GZ killed an unarmed teen. If he and his lawyer want to play “blame the victim” (again) then the sexual abuse survivor deserves a vigorous defense in the media from anyone and everyone who cares to lend a hand for the sake of truth, justice and fairness.
I understand fully that if he were 18 it would be a crime, and from what I’ve read, it could still be punishable if he was 18 at the time. The blame game has already started. I do agree that GZ needs to be asked about this meeting. In addition, I would be interested to know if he does indeed have the scar on his penis that she mentioned. The problem I see thus far, is she says no one will corroborate her story, not even the family. I feel for this woman; she thought she was doing a good thing by coming forward. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t?
Anybody familiar with the statue of limitations for sex abuse in Florida? I’m purely guessing 10 years.
QETNO please cite a source that w9 can’t get her parents to corroborate. I don;t know if you mean she can’t get her parents to corroborate the sexual misconduct or if they are denying that the ALLEGATIONS were brought to them and a meeting took place. It would make a difference, it seems. What a sad mess.
Also you wrote he/18 twice and I think that might have been a typo. Please clarify if it was, and thanks for answering. Complex stuff…
It was in her recorded statement. I’d have to go back and listen again, but what I got out of it is that she was essentially told to just drop it and if asked they wouldn’t talk about it. I can’t remember exactly, I apologize, and I will later go back to listen to her audio recordings because I might be mistaken.
As for the he/18 twice, I think you are referring to the first part of the post you replied to. I meant that if he was indeed 18 at the time then it was indeed a crime, and from what I’ve read he could still be punishable, but I still need to examine that statute someone quoted. Some quoted FL House Bill 525 stating in regards to sexual abuse of minors that the statute of limitations no longer applied, but I am unsure if that is only for future cases or past, too.
Very confusing, I agree.
i doubt W9 wants to press charges against zimmerman or anything, i think when she heard about the shooting all her feelings probably overloaded and she just had to call in and let them know everything. All the built up frustration probably came pouring out. I know how sad i was when i heard about this case and can’t imagine how much it freaked her out. So i really don’t think she will pursue anything more.
Ok, she is saying GZ sexually abused someone else, but that this person would deny it. She said her parents told her to drop it because she would get in trouble if he denied it to authorities. She then says that instead of talking about it, George just stopped being invited to family events. I can’t remember where I read/heard that the family said they wouldn’t talk about it. I thought there was a 4th audio on the OS site, but can’t find that now.
I agree. I don’t think she will or wants to press charges. I don’t think she’s even trying to equate what GZ (allegedly) did to her as meaning he must be a murderer. I think she heard what happened to that kid, and did not want him to get away with something terrible again. It makes me incredibly sick and sad to listen to her.
yes QETNO. You put it much better than i could but that’s what i was trying to say, thanks.
Nah, didn’t say it any better or worse. I just had to agree. Someone on HuffPo mentioned a statute then stated he might still be able to be charged, but I don’t think that’s what she wants. She probably doesn’t even want to ruin his life. Possibly she thinks of herself when she hears of TM. I’m certainly no expert.
Concerning W9, GZ answered “I don’t know” to Serino’s question about why a anonymous person would say terrible things about him.
GZ could have brushed the question aside by saying that he can’t answer without specific allegations.
My question is: by answering to that question, did GZ made W9’s statements a fair game for the prosecution?
hi, do you mean that instead of asking what the person said he answered “i don’t know” as though he must have had an idea of what was said?
On Feb 29th, GZ has no idea who called SPD to make statements about him. He doesn’t know what those statements are. But he knows someone went after him.
This is the essence of Serino’s question: Do you have enemies?
At that time, to Serino’s sense, it doesn’t matter much what W9 says. What matters is that GZ has enemies.
So, I was wondering if the fact that the question was asked during interviews and an answer was given, is enough for the prosecution to bring that to court?