Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case

Of course, the removal of Judge Lester won’t matter since no judge that will be appointed lives under a rock…

Thank you, CommonSenseForChange and willisnewton.

I’ve been MIA for a bit. I plan to play some catch up this weekend including publishing a posting that will note frequently referenced sites as of late. No, this won’t be anywhere near as useful as the previously mentioned evidence dump.

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

1,284 thoughts on “Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case

  1. I like the new interior design around here! Nice and cozy! Hello All! 🙂

    I think GZ is going to regret this move. It went from bad to worse, IMO. The child advocate maybe or the Chief Justice. A classic case of nose being dissected to spite the judge. Oh well.

    • Hey, princss6. Always good to see you ’round here!! 🙂

      I think this was a bad move, too, but I can foresee him attempting to kick his 3rd Judge off. If he gets Judge Nelson (same Judge I believe is on his wife’s case) then will he complain about a conflict of interest? Keep shopping, George.

    • I’ve been wondering how ANY judge will react to GZ’s false testimony to investigators. Perhaps harshly as when he lied about passport and money in court. Will he get away with that on the stand? Does the judge (and MOM) just let him ramble on about how he didn’t know how old Trayvon was and whether he thought Trayvon had a gun and that he was scared of Trayvon? when we know from his NEN call, later testimony, and probably from person phone calls that none of that is true.

      Let the jury decide.

      • What I’m surprised about this decision to let the judge go was that it was based on the “well-deserved tongue lashing” that Judge Lester made about lies from GZ and company regarding the money and bond issue, lies that the O’Mara conceded to and made really no excuse for except that GZ was a *ahem* scared 28-year-old. The judge made NO remarks about what he thought of GZ’s lies about the murder case itself.

        Just as well though. They’ll be no more excuses for GZ to cry “Unfair! everybody hates me and the judge was mean to me!”

        • MOM closing the 2nd bond hearing: “And yes – He didn’t tell the truth about the money.”
          That’s all that matters. Judge shopping is over now. I don’t expect them to get a 4th judge if their story goes south. I just hope that the new judge won’t be friendly to the point of letting George free after a Self-Defense hearing.

    • It’s almost 11 pm PDT, and a few minutes ago I read the most recent comments on the Zimmerman case on the Huffington Post. A few are so full of lies, it makes me want to scream. All kinds of accusations against Trayvon that are totally untrue. Any of you registered commenters over there? If so, please respond with the accurate information to these horrible people.

      • I find that it’s not worth commenting at media pages, especially in response to the “horrible people”. People who are willing to believe such comments would not be willing to accept “accurate information” anyway. Besides, those comments get buried very quickly in the sheer volume of nonsensical postings.

        • AMEN!! I saw in my email this morning a wonderful gift!!! I have been banned from The Orlando Sentinel!!! (Little end zone dance..clicking of heels) I am free at last free at last!!!!!!!! It is a cesspool and I tried hard to get voted off the Zimmerman Slime Boat!!! On a more relevant note….I went back into the audio of Serino/Singleton/GZ interview of 2-29-12 and always hear more each time but it’s so devastatingly hard to listen to the Weasel’s boring lengthy detailed explanations reverse explain shove foot up his own ass instead of mouth ramblings I must take it slow as to not have MY head EXPLODE!! I love part 3 when they barrage him with his NEN call and stop the tape and Singleton says “”You were following him now for how long?” (drum roll) With foot firmly up his ass GZ replies “On foot”? ……It just gets better and better. But thank you for allowing me to rant with joy and glee, Freckles I find no productive reason to comment on these media message boards I have been sucked into that black hole for a month until I actively started going one on one with the various freaks, I advise you do not engage them it leads nowhere at all. It’s like we are banging our own heads against that sidewalk no useful reason whatsoever. I felt a need to constantly correct them and all they come back with is what an angry monkey in a zoo throws at you in annoyance. I see a beautiful day hopefully in the not so distant future when I can go there to amuse myself for 5 minutes to see their rantings are only the very few with multiple user names beating themselves to death with their drivel!!! It only fuels the lunatics if you pay attention to them. Stay in the light!!!! Aloha all!!

      • @freckles –

        I, personally, have abandoned Huffington Post for the most part until they pay their interns, their mods and their writers. Huffington Post is not a blog.

        When I interned, I got paid!

        Nothing wrong, imo, with popularity of a blog, but when Arianna Huffington “hired” professional writers to create content for her site and then stiffed them with her “American labor is free” bull and they are privileged to receive “exposure” (connections), I had a problem with that.

        This is all completely O/T, but that’s why I sought out “small business” type blogs versus corrupt “big businesses” posing as blogs.

        You post as, right. I’ve seen your posts either there or on realitychatters (before the format changes). I can’t post at some of the places I read (because some don’t allow non-website owners).

        When the chit gets out of hand, though, I’ll be making use of my ability to spread the word at HP and Talk Left again. Right now, HP and Talk Left are still catching up to what’s been posted here. I hope others will, too.

        Like NMLE, I agree that fighting the non-sense is a useless endeavor… until something fact-based (instead of click-sales) is the focus.

        • Hi common sense and was so interesting–appreciate your comments. I’ve never heard of, but I’ll go take a look. I have been known to post on other sites with a different name, but always pro-justice, pro-Trayvon, and pro-democrats.

          • Funny that. Me, too. But I try to post with the same name. I double-checked and your twin is at JusticeQuest. My “twins” are all over the “interwebs”, but I won’t get discouraged from posting my views.

            IOW, Keep on fighting the good fight! Hope you’ll post here again.

    • Here are the things that I’m looking for:
      1) Johnathan Good’s drawing with GZ & TM positions during scuffle
      2) FDLE report
      3) TM’s cell phone records if they include text messages sent by DeeDee. She said that after the phone died she tried calling and texting him.
      4) 911 calls (7) for the official connection times
      I’m not sure what the consent form to search Manalo’s telephone is about.
      Given George’s school results already released, I have no high expectations about his high school records.

      • I believe the consent form to search Manalo’s phone was due to him having those three images of the crime scene on his phone.

        • Exactly… I’ve posted that I have minimal to no suspicions about Manalo, but I wouldn’t mind knowing if he’s the gun club worker. He didn’t have to advise the interviewer that he’d taken additional pics, but he did it.
          Why did he do that?

          Either something was uncovered and he was CYAing or he gave up his “evidence” pics because he wanted to be helpful.

  2. Glad to see a new thread- scrolling down on a mobile device was getting difficult! Thanks!

    Of the next discovery I’m looking forward to seeing the drawings by residents – w18 the distraught teacher should be interesting to see. I hope she was a drafting teacher and makes a good sketch.

    FWIW the phone records from TMs cell ought to easily refute Odessagirl’s rantings about the phone belonging to some little girl. Robert Zimmerman, GZs dad told reporters he didn’t believe TM was ever on the phone with Dee Dee at all.

    Too bad we are still waiting for GZs cell phone records. There is the potential that he used a prepaid calling card type plan and record aren’t kept but I don’t claim to be an expert on mobile devices. Does anyone know more?

    • I have completely ignored or disregarded Odessagirl’s claims as those of a paid promotion machine or as a blinded groupie. Maybe Odessagirl will launch her own bogus book. (Maybe it will be titled “Simpletons bought my book, too, here’s ‘how'”!)

    • Please don’t ask for page numbers, I am too dizzy from them. BUT. In one minor evidence dump there are some requests for information from various places. One was about GZ’s phone, a Blackberry on a prepaid scheme.
      This just means they don’t issue an itemised bill to the customer. But they still need too know what the calls were
      * for purpose of connecting them and
      * to know how many credits to take off the prepaid voucher.

      So, the phone company has records and they have to hand them over when asked by the right people.

  3. If you are thinking of Judge Debra Nelson, the answer is yes, she has been appointed for GZ case. So I think we will hear more about that from O’Mara. It also should be noted that since Lester has been removed, O’Mara can now challenge any and all of Lester rulings. In short, endless litagation, which I think is what O’Mara is planing.

  4. I’d like to (re?)-visit the idea of GZ getting cuts on the back of his head from a sprinkler box cover, what others here have referred to as “utility covers”. Look here at photo #38

    The closest picture of a sprinkler box cover that I could find elsewhere on the net is pictured here in a different color. Just for illustration purposes.

    You can see the edges on it. Now if the cover wasn’t pushed down all the way, then you’d get a sharp edge where the groove is. Also the corners are rounded and may be consistent with the crescent shaped cut on GZ’s head.
    See photo #30 of

    Now if the sprinkler box was where he got his head cut, during the fight/wrestle, then why would GZ say that his head was being banged on concrete?

    Here’s a possibility: The confrontation happened up at the T where GZ’s key/flashlight was dropped. Initially, the scuffle brought both of them down on the grass, and GZ hurt his head on the sprinkler box cover. I think he didn’t know it was a sprinkler box, which is why in one of the earlier interviews, he said he didn’t know if it was a sign or what (meaning the square thing in the grass he didn’t know was a sprinkler box).This would be consistent with Witness 11 and 20 hearing the sounds of “Ah ah ah” to the left of their living room, closer to the T.

    But here would be the reason for GZ lying. It was TM who stumbles to try to get away, but GZ goes after him and as a result they both end up two houses down. GZ could not admit to obtaining his head wounds so early in the fight but then had the strength and will to chase TM down south of the T. He’d lose his self-defense claim. He also had to stick with the “head banging on concrete” to make his story sound life-threatening.

    In any case, does anybody buy the sprinkler box cover as the culprit for those head cuts?

    • Many things are possible. What counts is what the prosecution can prove in court. Those green boxes are made of plastic, by the way.

      I think the prosecution is going to provide a vague narrative for what happened in the dark between the townhomes – GZ chased TM into that area, confronted him and shot him, and his injuries don’t match the story he tells. Plus, of course, he’s proven a liar in his movements from the clubhouse to the cut thru, and he ran after the teen and admitted it on the night, and tried to deny it later.

      The jury will come to the conclusion that whatever this guy says is a lie, even when he’s possibly telling the truth.

      Then of course they will have the teen’s mother swear it’s her son screaming for help.

      Personally I don’t know who it is screaming for help, and the FBI seems to be saying science can’t solve the puzzle. So that leaves a jury with only a few things to know for certain about what happened – and the fact that GZ lied about his movements is certain. The rest is circumstantial, and subjective, and may rest on the words of some partial eye and ear witnesses. So when it comes time to make a decision, the jury can argue (like we bloggers do) endlessly about things that are inconclusive, but things that ARE conclusive will be what they fall back on to make the final decision. And the guy’s simply not credible. He’s clearly lied to investigators and that’s what CAN BE KNOWN and can be relied on to color the more difficult questions a jury’s gotta answer.

      His statements to SPD are inconsistent, contradictory and impossible to square with the NEN call regarding the timing of events. He’s a liar. What else does a jury have to know beyond a reasonable doubt to get a conviction?

      • @willisnewton, ok so the green things are plastic, but are the white/silver sprinkler boxes at the scene plastic or metal, you think? Even if plastic, they could still have sharp edges to cause the cuts, and its even more reason for GZ to say it was the concrete sidewalk instead.

        • I’ve yet to see a photo with good enough resolution to say what those utility covers are.

          And like I true to explain, I don’t think it matters unless there is a way to prove your theory to a jury. Absent a confession or a surprise witness, you are engaging in speculation to what end?

          • @willisnewton, True, many speculations here will be of no consequence as far as what can be presented in court. However, as armchair detectives, I think we have our own license to ponder what might have happened right? And IMHO, i think speculating and trying to make sense of how GZ ACTUALLY got his injuries versus what he claimed is far more relevant than say, trying to figure out what car Shellie drives (I apologize to those of you who have taken an interest in that, it’s just not my interest!) and more palatable than my previous rants about crazy internet groupies, wouldn’t you agree? But seriously, I’m just trying to make things jive with things known to be at the crime scene. Alternative theories posed before were the dog sign and cell phone. I have not found those theories to be satisfactory. Hence, I continue to speculate…..

            If an alternative explanation is not offered by the prosecution as to how those head injuries occurred, then perhaps the jury may be left to believe GZ’s version. At the heart of GZ’s self-defense claim is being beaten to where he feared for his life.

            You might say, OK, so what, concrete, metal or plastic, it doesn’t matter. Maybe not, but what DOES matter is if it can be reasonably argued that GZ lied about it for the purpose of bolstering his self-defense claim. His claim is that the concrete was TM’s “weapon” if you will. But if he were just shimmying around in the grass and scraping up his head in the process, that’s a huge difference. Reasonably, if the little portion of his head were banged on the side of the concrete sidewalk in the position that he claimed in his re-enactment, one would expect a horizontal dent across his head, which he doesn’t have.

            @CSFC, you’re right he said he was able to shimmy himself off grass and therefore was no longer going to get his head bashed in that way. However, at the moment he pulled the trigger, he had to have “reasonable fear” that TM was going to take his gun and kill him to be justified. The previous 1) “head-bashing” and 2) nose/face punching along with 3) the long winded death threat “You’re gonna die tonight MF” are the basis of this fear. #3 is entirely based on GZ’s testimony and can’t be proven or disproven, but the defense has marginal evidence (a bleeding head and a dr.’s note saying a closed fracture) for #2 and #3 that may sway a jury. That leaves it in the prosecution’s court to explain those injuries, right? In my mind, it wouldn’t matter if GZ had been beaten black and blue and had his nose hanging down below his chin, he still would have been in the wrong for profiling, following and ultimately killing TM. But rather than ignoring it, it’s best to come up with an alternate explanation for the injuries that would fit with the reality that TM himself was just struggling in self-defense.

        • That’s the problem that pits Willis’s doubt against the evidence. My argument remains that plastic or not (because defense will argue that the concrete banging was really a banging on what Zimmerman *thought* was concrete), Zimmerman moved FROM THE CONCRETE or wherever TO THE GRASS by his own admission. Zimmerman also started in the GRASS. Witnesses say it started and ended in the GRASS. Zimmerman had options. He was on top and could have moved away. At a minimal, Zimmerman says there was no longer a possibility of being left diaper-bound BECAUSE HE SHIMMIED HIMSELF INTO THE GRASS!

          • FWIW the utility covers appear grey in rain and bleached white in sun. Plastic doesn’t really do that. They are probably concrete.

            I’m as guilty as anyone of wanting to know (and being willing to speculate) what exactly happened that night.

            If I were the detective I’d run down the speculative versions and see what fits the evidence and witness testimony. But we’ve all done that and IMO it’s not knowable past a certain point.

            What’s significant is areas are highlighted for further questioning of witnesses, such as how long the arguing voices went on since we have GZs story to compare with.

            No one saw the start of the altercation. W2 may have seen a foot chase. There a rough consensus of movement and struggle but nothing certain that is mutually confirmed until W6John sees the two on the ground.

            So if I were the prosecuor I’d present a compelling narrative around what is known and let each juror draw the specific picture they needed I their own mind as to what happened. Some can believe GZ hit a tree or bush. Some can assume he slipped in wet grass, and so on. All must be shown that what GZ claims is highly unlikely and that he’s lied about most of what led up to this time, That is what will sway a jury.

            It’s foolish IMO for the prosecution to say THIS is what happened (they stood here snd moved there etc) when all they’ve really got to do is say the overall narrative is that GZ got out if his car to run after TM and then he found him and shot him and that his injuries don’t match and GZs story is just as unlikely as the proven lies about his other movemts.

            • @willisnewton, thanks for the feedback. We can all speculate with different theories but, I think we can all agree with your statement that “the overall narrative is that GZ got out if his car to run after TM and then he found him and shot him and that his injuries don’t match and GZs story is just as unlikely as the proven lies about his other movements.”

            • FWIW the utility covers appear grey in rain and bleached white in sun. Plastic doesn’t really do that. They are probably concrete

              They are concrete, I believe it was W11 (not sure, female anyway) that said they are made of concrete. Is W11 white T-shirt? Anyway I think it was her that said it.

            • @Jim and CSFC, thanks guys, I did not know that the sprinker covers had been reported as concrete by a witness.

            • “No one saw the start of the altercation,” as far as we know. I suspect W11 and W20 saw much more than they have revealed, and one or both of them may have responded to the verbal exchange by going out onto their screened porch and thus seen the beginning of the physical scuffle. Just a possibility. But we don’t have enough knowledge to make definitive statements like “no one saw…”. **end nit picking**

  5. As hard as I try not to….There is internal rife in the GZ camp, and it’s ugly.

    So last night, the crazy GZ groupie lady advertised yet again on the nuthouse website (TCTH) that MO’s book will be available for pre-order next week. Of course, we could give a @*#)$*)(# about that, but in the same post she tried to defend MO/SO by saying they didn’t accept money for the Dr. Phil appearance nor did they take money for “reimbursement for time lost from work due to the show.” They had refused interviews with other outlets including with Dr. Phil prior to this. “The only pay they will receive is profits from the sale of the book which they are going to share towards the defense.”

    And then earlier today the nuthouse leader featured a post from an anonymous person (not crazy OG lady, she denied ever seeing it) who was said to have read some of the book, saying that GZ was not going to benefit from it. This poster also said that there were inaccuracies in the book that he felt would be damaging to GZ so was going to try to refute those inaccuracies in the upcoming days.

    Then LATER today, a post at the nuthouse showed up as an email from SO herself saying that she didn’t know who that featured anonymous person was, but that she knew only she, her husband MO and O’Mara had seen copies. She is threatening a lawsuit if anyone released information on it as copyrighted material. She said O’Mara had the unedited draft for weeks and did not tell them anything had to be changed.

    Very amusing.

    • I went to take a look. (Gag) This was the only thing I found interesting over there, although I don’t who O’Mara’s being interviewed by in this video.

      • @CSFC, sorry to make you barf, especially without it being from spiking your drinks. Visits to TCTH tends to make people nauseous, I know, and requires a can of disinfectant when you leave.

        To save you another trip, fyi, what are supposedly excerpts from ‘the book’ were posted today. @NLME, feel free to delete this post, or parts of it, if you feel copying text from this unpublished “alleged” book is inappropriate.

        It reads like a really bad fiction novel, and if all of this hoopla is intended to sell the book, then they’re doing an awful job of it, as even the nuthouse fans are suspicious of the whole thing. (After being torn apart by some of the other commenters, the crazy groupie lady has been silent today). Part of it tells GZ’s account of the night of the shooting in the first person, which makes it stupid unless he recorded GZ, otherwise how could he have GZ’s words verbatim? Even so, the details are curious: Example: “Somehow, I broke his grip on the gun and grabbed it between where the site and hammer is. I got it in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger.” Is he saying TM actually held the gun? GZ never said that in his statements.

        Additional text written in MO’s voice, as posted by the nuthouse leader in the comment section (not in the article itself on the blog):

        “As Shellie Zimmerman and I approached the yellow crime scene tape blocking off portions of a sidewalk and lawn inside the Twin Lakes community, we noticed a patrol car sitting a hundred feet away. […]

        I nodded to several of the officers on the scene that night because I recognized them from ten years before, when I was in the police department. To one of the officers I said, “I have his wife here next to me; the guy in the police car. His name is George and this is his wife.

        “Can you tell me anything that happened?”

        The Sanford police officer quickly answered, “Oh, don’t worry about it; from what I’ve seen, it’s clean.” This bit of “police jargon” meant, in the officer’s opinion, it was pretty clear what had taken place and there weren’t a lot of questions about the incident.”

        • “.. grip on the gun and grabbed it between where the site and hammer is…”

          I have enormous confidence in a book that can’t tell the difference between SITE and SIGHT, when a gun SIGHT must be a frequent topic of conversation at shooting ranges etc etc.

          Any suggestion TM did have a grip on the gun is either BS – or someone’s wiped it clean. Why would he do that if it hurts his story? But let them talk. Let them talk. The more versions they get out there, the more explaining to do in court.

          • Talkleft has a post now on the subject of MO’s book pre-release, if ya’ll would like more (or better) commentary than mine……


            By the way, the “anonymous poster” who provided the draft text of MO’s book (note that it’s a draft and not considered the final version) was conjectured (because she claimed not to know) by the crazy OG lady (aka JustFactsPlz at TCTH) to be someone who had posted at the nuthouse site before under the name “Ken” and had claimed to have seen the book. Wasn’t “Ken” a code name for one of the GZ’s family members in the jail house calls? Does anyone know/remember who Ken was supposed to be? Might be just a coincidence.

            • Ken = Scott, I believe. I remember seeing the name Scott in an evidence dump, too.

            • As the self-appointed neighborhood nuthouse watch captain, I give you more gossip….

              @qetno, Oh, “Ken” from jailhous calls is money mover brother-in-law Scott?

              Well, again, could be total coincidence, but if Scott/Ken was the anonymous poster behind the leaked manuscript, then I really wonder why. The reason given by the anonymous poster was as follows: **** “Upon initial review there appear to be numerous “mistakes” in [an upcoming] book, and even several specific items that we feel are outright fabrications. These aspects may be intended to help the book sell well, but they also present some serious factual concerns. I am, quite simply, trying to get out ahead of what “could be” a well intended attempt at public support, which simultaneously creates a significant and potentially damaging series of unintended consequences.” *****

              Notice that he said “we feel” and not “I feel”. Who are “we”? Scott and GZ, Daddy Z, the legal team or combinations thereof? No need to answer, just rhetorical questions. Although not entirely impossible, I have to doubt that a professional like O’Mara would try to do damage control in this manner and on the nuthouse blog. O’Mara can’t obviously have a direct hand in manipulating what is said in the book, which is in essence a witness’ testimony (or is it? Can MO claim “artistic license” on a non-fiction book written about a pending case in which he’s a witness?). But as suggested at TalkLeft, O’Mara should be scrambling for a gag order right about now. GZ’s family (along with crazy OG lady), however, seem to be enamored by the nuthouse website and actually believe it’s a real media outlet.

  6. NLME: I’d like a witness area. Lots of sequence and timing issues to work out. And wording of the Crump interview with DeeDee.

    Here is a little flow I’ve been thinking about.
    John Batchelor: From the time you hear the sounds initially to the time you hear the rock against the glass door, how long do you think that was?
    John (w6): Maybe five minutes.

    Counting back 5 minutes from the gunshot we arrive at 7:11:56. Trayvon and GZ are both running south behind John(w6)’s townhome. By the way, this is the only time Trayvon runs. So, any reference to running is this 20sec sprint down the N/S sidewalk. W1 says, “They were running in back.” Notice that is plural. I have Trayvon starting around 7:11:40, making it to his dad’s house around 7:12:00. He will still be winded until 7:12:20.

    DeeDee: He say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him… He say he not goin’ run cause he out of breath.

    So, when Trayvon is found he’s still out of breath. That would be before 7:12:20. Did GZ continue down that dark center sidewalk and locate the kid? Not so fast. Remember GZ says on his call: I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is. When was that? 7:13:10. That’s about a minute after Trayvon being found. Hmmmmm.

    • Jay, the issue here is that you assume where TM ran. The way I understand DD’s account, TM must have run much more than what you re saying. This is why I believe he used a more complicated path.

      • Ah! This is a big issue. I was thinking “Trayvon lost him” meant that GZ had not come up on him immediately. When the dispatcher halted GZ for following (GZ: he was right) maybe he paused briefly but continued on in the same direction (Serino: that’s following).

        I know that DeeDee got a little frustrated with Bernie and repeated a big section. If someone says “he ran” and then later on they say “he ran”, there could be a second run. Or, it could be the same run referred to twice.

        So, where did Trayvon run after going south? And how did he get back up by the “T”? Surely he would not WANT to return to where he had run from. W6 seems to eliminate the idea of another scuffle causing the debris field in his yard before the argument. He heard something 5 min. before gunshot, and much later the argument that others heard, a pause, and then voices during the moving scuffle that ended with cries and yells for help in his yard.

        Per DeeDee, Trayvon seems to be followed to the place of the loud argument by w11’s house. Not sure of the direction they came. I suspect others north of w11 heard and saw some of this. We may have some of their opinions obtained through neighborhood gossip. Only it is being filtered through the witnesses we know instead of coming directly.

        • Jay,

          DeeDee says close to nothing concerning TM’s whereabouts. She says strictly nothing about where he ran. What I understand DeeDee stated, and I may be wrong, is that TM walked past GZ’s truck and ran. She also says that he ran long enough to be tired to the point where he would decide to walk home instead of keeping running and would still be tired when GZ finds him back.

          I also get timing inputs from the NEN, 911 calls & T-mobile call log. From those sources, I can conclude that TM started running at 7:11:41 and was near the T with GZ some times between 7:15(:30?) & 7:16:11.

          Finally, I get GZ’s 911 call that indicates that he was parked on TTL somewhere between the mailboxes awning and the T. I also believe the clubhouse vids show just that.

          So, we’re talking of about approx. 4min during which TM would run from a point east from GZ’s truck, then get tired and start walking home, then get cornered and keep on walking to end up at the T.
          Therefore, any scenario you can assume that is based on DeeDee’s statement requires that TM ran enough to be exhausted and ended up walking toward the T with GZ behind him.

          • Doesn’t she also say he ran part of the way from 7-11, to get out of the rain? before taking shelter at the mailboxes? So he’d be pre-stressed from that.

            • I agree, Aussie. On a more general point, we don’t really know what were TM’s physical capabilities and how “fresh” he was when he started running away from GZ. Therefore, it is hard to say what running to exhaustion really meant.

              However, I have a hard time believing that he would be exhausted after running just 200-300ft and won’t be able to recover from such short run in a couple of minutes. But again, this can only be an assumption I’m making. Following that assumption, I have to conclude that he ran and walk a path that was not straight home from TTL. That’s my claim.

              Does knowing what path TM took matters? It’s a very itchy matter to many including me. Not knowing what happened during those 4min after GZ’s “Shit. He’s running” while he was so close from home, allows any speculation. That said, I don’t if it matters when it comes to the trial.

              Indeed, there are plenty of indications that GZ isn’t telling the truth or the whole truth. His narrative is contradicted by his own NEN call as well as witness statements (DeeDee being #1) and some evidences. So, I believe the prosecution has a shot at winning.

          • I think Dee Dee’s testimony can be used at trail (if they so choose) in a limited fashion that shields her from cross examination if they have her answer questions regarding her deposition – “did you tell investigators this?” and such, and limit her to the things she knows and spoke about originally: that TM was near the mail kiosk for some time, and that the call dropped and picked up when it did, and that GZ said something different than he claims he said when the two met, for starters. I find her difficult to understand at times, but completely credible and sincere.

            The mere fact that Dee Dee knew TM waited by the mail kiosk puts GZ’s story into the land of fiction right away, and IMO through deductive reasoning alone proves that GZ parked someplace in the middle between the clubhouse parking lot and the final cut thru parking spot, and that he MOVED down TTL chasing TM with his car.

            I don’t think investigators knew to ask her straight up if TM ran away from a moving car – but if she is asked, she might say that she had that impression or that TM told her directly that happened. She doesn’t know the significance of that action in the legal sense, but I think it speaks towards the depraved mind concept.

            The timing of the NEN call is a very specific indicator of where GZ was at what time, and don’t forget he marked a map showing his location at the first corner of TTL before he quickly crossed it out and went into his “double back/circled the car/ hand in waistband” fiction. So long as a jury believes that TM was waiting by the mail kiosk, (which is something Dee Dee knows) then the rest is just deductive reasoning based on the timing of the call. GZ cannot be in the clubhouse parking lot, and he also cannot already be at the cut thru facing east when he says “is he by the clubhouse now/yeah, now he’s coming at me.” He’s caught is a big, big lie here and when confronted with this lie by investigators he doubled down on the lie, insisting repeatedly he was “at the clubhouse” when TM approached him, hand in waistband.

          • Trayvon was still winded when he first sees (or hears) GZ approaching. If he saw GZ quite a way off, that could explain how he was still winded. This may have been well before GZ got to him or Trayvon started walking away. It’s also possible that DeeDee was hearing panic in Trayvon that can cause hard breathing similar to after a run.

  7. What can we rely on as incontrovertible in this case?

    I think GZ’s NEN call and the seven 911 calls won’t be overturned. The exact times and redacted info will fill in for us. Beyond that there are points in the interviews where the witnesses describe what was happening during their 911 call. These are pretty solid. Next, there are places where a witness talks about something in another witness’s 911 call. Finally, testimony sections are given in sequences that are easy to time out and butt up against the start or end of their 911 call. Then I… then the man… immediately after that… 20 seconds later… These are less stable but may stand when considered all together.

    Except for the NEN call, the others overlap. And w18’s fourteen minute call is simultaneous with parts of them all.

    • A jurying going to “rely” on whatever they feel like relying on, truth or fiction. But there will be facts established at trial after deliberations but also things established without either party objecting. The timing of the essential actions described on the
      NEN call can be debated somewhat but the defense is only going to get so far.

      The significance and meaning of resident/witness statements can and likely will be debated and the timing of the shot opens up questions about “the missing minutes” that aren’t by themselves conclusive for either side.

      IMO what’s incontivertable is that GZ lies to investigators about his movements from the clubhouse area to the T. And he lied about where he was when he said, “he ran” by claiming he was already at RVC without running. And whatever else there is to argue about, the guys a liar and anything he claims is highly suspect.

      • It’s also not disputed that after George became aware of at least one witness, he fired the shot. Zimmerman heard W6 say he’s calling 9-1-1.

  8. “And w18′s fourteen minute call is simultaneous with parts of them all.”

    Awesome point! It’s also irrefutable that George Zimmerman altered the crime scene; Zimmerman admits at a minimum that he altered the position of Trayvon Martin’s body.

  9. This is in response to some of the comments above. I just thought I would put my 2 cents in again, it’s been awhile. I love the comments BTW it’s good reading

    .I know this is not very popular but I’m still sticking with close to my original thoughts 4 months ago as to where both GZ and Trayvon where near the end of GZ’s 911 call. I believe when GZ got out of his truck he walked fast for 20 seconds
    and then slowed down for 7 seconds and then stopped to finish the call. I don’t believe he went anymore then about 140 feet before he stopped. I believe Trayvon trotted up near the T then at first I thought he took a right at the T for about 50 feet and got off the path and found a dark spot to hide and wait to see if the strange guy comes around the corner, and that still may be, but I believe it is possible that he took a left at the T and found a dark spot near the teachers window. If you remember she said she heard talking and then the talking stopped and then she heard talking again but louder and further away. I believe It could of been Trayvon talking to DeeDee the first time near her window. As for GZ I believe he started up the walkway leading to the T but about half way he veered right off the walkway and got close to the building and slowly made his way to the corner and stopped in fear that Trayvon could be right around the corner. At first I thought the tapping sounds was water drops building up on the roof and then spilling over onto the drain spout 2 and 3 drops at a time and it still may be but now I’m thinking it’s GZ tapping his flashlight on the corner of the building. I believe GZ is not moving at this time, when I listen to the underlying sound from the call I can hear water trickling out of the down spout that is right behind him, this sound is consistent just like his flashlight taps, he is not moving.If you stop the video below at 1:57 you will see the down spout.–75855.html

    I believe GZ got to the end of the call and just stood there looking out into the dark looking for Trayvon. I believe Trayvon still in the dark spot near the teachers window could not see GZ at the corner of the building, I think it was too dark and GZ kind of blended into the building and that was just what he was trying to do.I think after time went by and the strange man didn’t come around the corner Trayvon thought it was safe to walk home and then he no sooner got just past the T and GZ was right behind him and then the louder arguing started.

    • Not to be cliche’, but OMG! I was just thinking about the gutter noise theor’y. Couldn’t remember who posted it or the details, but the significance of the sounds stuck with me. Can you refresh?

      • @CSFC

        Yes, I can give you the theory I wrote 4 months ago but that was before any evidence dumps. A lot of things have been cleared up since then. Although there are still a lot of things I believe, like GZ pulling his gun on Trayvon before the fight and GZ frisking Trayvon after the shot. Link below if you want to read it.

        Click to access trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-timing-comment-from-jim.pdf

        Now let me ask you. Have you listened to the underlying sound at the end of GZ’s call? If you haven’t I wish you would. In some of your past posts you seem to have some good ears and I would be interested in what you think you hear. It seems I’m the only one that hears it. Maybe it’s different to other people, I don’t know.

        • @Jim –

          It could be gutter noise, imo. I don’t hear drip-drops, but I think it could be a light, continuous flow as the water runs through the downspout. I don’t know if you’ve seen the pics filed under “misc” over at axiomamnesia, but they have some nice clear images of the gutters/downspouts at this link:

          See pics 56-60 for the RVC homes and image 30 for the TTL side.

          The noise could also be the whirling sound of unscrewing a flashlight to shuffle batteries, too.

          • @CSFC

            “I think it could be a light, continuous flow as the water runs through the downspout.”

            That’s exactly what I hear!!! That is why I don’t think GZ is moving. Good pics, I believe GZ stood right in front of that down spout. Thanx for getting back, I appreciate it.

            • The only problem I see in proving anything about where Zimmerman stood as he completed the call with NEN where we would hear the trickling water noises coming from the downspouts is that there are downspouts at the _back_ of W11/W20’s house (the HOA lady with the screened patio) which is at the Tee and there’s also one at the _front_ of W13’s house on the RVC side. W13 is Manalo, the flashlight bearing iPhone 3-pic taker.

              The image at 2861 seems to be the corner house in this image (which I called #60 above and it’s the last image on page 2 of the “misc” photoset at axiomamnesia’s website).

              Or go to — (you have to add dsc_0015.jpg to the url to see the actual pic directly).

              But the fronts of the homes on TTL also have the same gutter/downspout configuration (unless it’s an end/corner home which has both front and back gutters), so there would need to be additional corroboration of sounds besides just the drainage noises to prove Zimmerman’s actual location. If coupled with the starting point in *time* of the door chime of Zimmerman’s Ridgeline door indicating it opened, you could travel only a finite distance to reach *somebody’s* house (front or back) to hear the gutter, iow.

              One other quick note… The unpaved cut-throughs create end units/corner homes, so there should always be downspouts there as well. Zimmerman could have reached some of those cut-throughs from TTL side in the exact same amount of time as he could have reached the Tee or RVC after leaving his truck and the same gutter noises would be heard. Zimmerman could utter the same phrases heard on the NEN call from those unpaved cut-throughs — “he ran”, “towards the back entrance”, “I don’t know where this kid is”, “past the clubhouse… you’ll see my truck”, etc.

              This is a long post… my apologies. Thanks for pushing me to look at those noises again which also pushed me to seek out better pics than we had early on.

              At the end of the day, you can’t prove where Zimmerman stopped by the sounds we think are gutter drainage noises without additional corroborating evidence. Alternatively, the gutter noise can corroborate or disqualify other theories.

            • @CSFC

              “At the end of the day, you can’t prove where Zimmerman stopped by the sounds we think are gutter drainage noises without additional corroborating evidence. Alternatively, the gutter noise can corroborate or disqualify other theories.”

              “STOPPED” is the operative word. The underlying sound we hear sounds like water trickling down or out of a downspout. This is a sound most of us have heard on and off our whole life, it’s very familiar, add the fact that it was raining that night, I believe it corroborate to some degree that that’s “probably” what we hear. I don’t believe it is a coincidence. But your right, I can’t prove that. Trickling water aside the underlying sound is continuous and sounds to be independent of GZ’s cellphone, this leads me to believe GZ is not moving, he “stopped” for the rest of the call. Again your right, I can’t prove that but it just seems logical to me.

              Now “IF” GZ stopped then that would mean he could not be anywhere else for the rest of the call, “not walking” so where is the spot he stopped? Yes, I’m well aware there are a lot of downspouts in the complex but to me the most logical one is the one just before you get to the T. Though we can’t prove it because we are only going by sound, it sounds like GZ got out of his SUV stood by the SUV for 4 seconds ( to clip his gun on maybe? Don’t know) then walked fast (some think ran because of the wind “sound” in the phone but can’t prove that) for 20 seconds and then slowed down for 7 seconds. Now I did a little experiment back when this all started, I walked real fast for 20 seconds with a cellphone to my ear trying to listen to my wife on the other end and then slowed down about half for 7 seconds. I did this a number of times and the best I could do was between 130 and 140 feet. This lines up close with where some speculate GZ’s SUV was parked ( of course they can’t prove that) and the furthest corner of the first building of the paved cut through just short of the T. Now we know GZ said Trayvon ran / skipped through that cut through headed for the T / back gate and I believe him because it just seems to be the most logical route, but he can’t prove that anymore then I can. When GZ followed Trayvon I believe he took the same route.I don’t believe GZ is a quick enough thinker to strategize anything in the few seconds he had before he went after Trayvon. Couple that with him saying that’s the way he went and told the dispatcher he was following the goon it seems logical to me, but he can’t prove that anymore then I can or anyone for that matter.Now if we are to take DeeDee’s word about the conversation she had with Trayvon that night (and I do) we also have to consider that the conversation between GZ and the dispatcher also was the truth. You see up to this point in GZ’s mind he thinks what he is doing is right, he has no real reason to lie yet. Nothing serious has happened yet, it was just another night in the line of duty in GZ’s mind. Well maybe a little more because he didn’t want this one to get away.

              Now getting to the spot. I believe when GZ got about half way up the walkway / cut through the dispatcher asked “are you following him” GZ said “yea” dispatcher “OK we don’t need you to do that” GZ said “OK” GZ got off the walkway and headed for the corner of the building and then stopped. But I believe he was going to do that anyway. Only a real idiot (and I know GZ could be) would go blindly past a corner of a building in the dark when he don’t know where this kid / goon is. I believe GZ stopped close to the corner of the building because the sound of the wind stopped, I can hear the continues trickling sound, and the sound of his voice lowered, but I can’t prove that. I believe it was about this point, maybe the last minute or two of the call and after that GZ started to strategize.I believe this is when he found the time to put his gun in the ready by the sound of it, but nobody can prove that.I believe GZ just stood in his little safe spot and looked out into the darkness trying to see movement that could be the goon. You see, I think GZ did not want to give the goon the element of surprise, I believe he wanted that for himself. I don’t believe GZ would have the guts to do it any other way and it’s really the smart way if you think about it. I believe it was only about 30 seconds or so after the end of the call Trayvon thought it was safe to walk home from where ever he was hiding because he thought he lost the strange man and that’s when GZ saw his chance to be a hero. With his equalizer at hand and the element of surprise he rushed out after the goon.But your right I can’t prove that. From there the speculation continues.

              You see CSFC all I’m trying to do is use sounds / CLUES and commonsense to see if things line up enough to form a opinion, it don’t make it right, It’s just my opinion. For instance, the sound of somebody screaming for help on the 911 call, I have a opinion on who that is but I can’t prove it, that don’t mean I’m going to forget about it.

            • @Jim –

              “When GZ followed Trayvon I believe he took the same route.I don’t believe GZ is a quick enough thinker to strategize anything in the few seconds he had before he went after Trayvon.”

              Possibly he is quick enough. It doesn’t take all that much to understand parallel roads and Zimmerman already expressed that he understood shapes/layouts by subsequently indicating that he would achieve an address by obtaining an address from a perimeter property. (Zimmerman never gave the address, etc., and that arg put for by Zimmerman is bogus I know, but it does show his understanding of perimeters/shapes/layouts).

              I think your hypo is really very likely what happened. The point is the defense will kill it. They will show that there was a downspout past the Tee spot on the RVC side. BTW, the closest witness to put Zimmerman near the Tee twice is W18 (teacher) who “guestimated” 10 minutes between the two alerting/noticeable/alarming sounds she heard.

              Due to the locations of the downspouts on W13’s house (Manalo’s house), Zimmerman could be at either the Tee or at the front of his house to achieve the same sound effect. This covers timing as well for the defense give or take a few panting noises.

              When I force myself into Zimmerman’s shoes dress (if I were a hunter), I stop near the Tee to finish my call in a lowered voice as i proclaim I don’t know (for sure, but I have a suspicion) where this kid is. I end my NEN call and either:

              (1) move further towards and down RVC heading towards the back gate to use a parallel unpaved (private) cut-through to find my “Target” and drive him out of it the unpaved cut-through where he’s chatting up his girlfriend.

              (2) move further down the paved cut-through towards Brandy Green’s townhouse and hear the boy on the phone and confront/drive him out of the unpaved (private) cut-through where he’s chatting up his girlfriend.

              (3) move back towards TTL, make a left and move towards the first or second unpaved cut-through towards the back gate where I find my “Target” and drive him out of the unpaved (private) area he’s chatting up his girlfriend from.

              If the chase got louder anywhere near the W11 and W6 homes and Trayvon Martin was out of breath anywhere near the actual killing point, there had to be a south to north chase between the unpaved cut-throughs before reaching the bend AGAIN. W18 says she heard a raucous twice! Large gap ‘tween the raucous. (George at/near Tee proclaiming “He ran”, George lowers voice as he doesn’t want to give address, altercation nearly 10 mins later as voices AGAIN become disconcerting).

      • Noticed in DeeDee’s testimony to de la Rionda at one point:
        “He said it was startin’ a little bit dripping water … So, he put his hoodie on.”

        This would only tie in Trayvon to standing under a full drain spout if DeeDee remembered it as a different time. She says his hood went up while he was walking on TTL with George following him in the car/truck.

        • Except DeeDee talks in dialect. Unless she specifically said drainpipe, “startin’ a little bit dripping water” could just mean starting to rain lightly. We need someone good at the dialect to interpret for us.

          • Good point. Trayvon must have put his hood up when he first walked out from the mailboxes cover. He had run in there earlier because the rain was pouring down. But by the time he noticed the creep, the rain had slowed down. He moved away shortly after seeing GZ because he was very uncomfortable about him. One of the Zimmer supporters told me that you can watch and follow anybody even close behind in a car and they won’t be bothered in the least. HA!

            Anybody think Trayvon went back and hid at the mailboxes? If GZ went south, maybe Trayvon went north. If GZ went east, maybe Trayvon evaded to the west. Makes sense for Trayvon to go any place he was before, even by the truck, for safe hiding because it would be so unexpected. The neighborhood is not very big and I don’t think Trayvon was about to be chased out of there like the goons. This occurs to me from DeeDee’s statement, “He started walking back again.” It seems like a replay 3 minutes later when his route seems to be going home around the same turn he took before.

    • As for the hiding..

      I think it’s much more likely that Trayvon Martin ducked into one of the unpaved cut-throughs seen here: — see images 135 and 108.

      Trayvon Martin could have just decided to hang out there to continue his call with DeeDee after he’d lost Zimmerman. Little did Trayvon know, Zimmerman’s still on the hunt! Zimmerman continues his search, finds him and runs him out of the unpaved cut-through back around the buildings and toward the Tee again.

      • You know, I think you might be right. I remember back in March hearing one of GZ’s family or friends who had spoken to him say that he went around a building that night searching. Wish I could find that mention again now.

  10. Bella Lee writes: “Witness 6 says that in the 10 seconds he saw the fight, he never saw hitting, punching or head slamming. He said he saw hand to hand wrestling like the person on top was holding the guy down for the cops. All that contradicts Zimmerman alleged attack story”

    LetJusticePrevail writes: “And wouldn’t that be close to the time when GZ said TM was trying to smother him?”

    No Agenda writes: “Yes it would.”

    LetJusticePrevail writes: “KInd of explains why #6 might not have seen punching, if TM was using his hands to cover GZ’s mouth and nose. It might also explain why #6 thought the “guy on top” was using MMA style tactics, pressing the head down with hands or forearms, and first thought it was a ‘ground and pound”.”

    This was part of a conversation about W6 over at HuffPo. I think all of us know what the flaw is here, but it would have made for a good defense theory if it weren’t for that flaw. While this is an interesting take, the problem (that I’m surprised no one pointed out, yet) is that John also stated the screams were continuous/clear. If TM was smothering GZ at this moment that John sees, that would make TM screaming for help while smothering GZ. Hm, that wouldn’t make much sense, huh?

    The discussion took place in this article:

    • I concede nothing. There was absolutely no smothering by Trayvon Martin being performed. No DNA on his hands. However, George Zimmerman’s hands had something that needed to be washed off, yes?

      • “However, George Zimmerman’s hands had something that needed to be washed off, yes?”

        Apparently! Also, thank you for pointing out that second flaw with their theory – don’t know how that escaped me!

    • At no point in W11’s 911 call is there any any sonic indication that the person screaming had a hand placed over his mouth. Had that happened during the screaming, there would have been an audible difference in the tonal balance of the obscured and unobscured sounds. Combine the sonic evidence with the lack of DNA on TM’s hands, and you get a near certainty that the smothering story is a fabrication (BRD, IMHO).

    • ROLL TIDE! If Michigan woulda got 3 more pts, I’d have won the bet I made. I called Bama 41-17.

  11. I am glad i found this blog you guys are on point. Thanks for many theories. Just and believe 2 plus 2 = 4 for gz it equals 6.jj

  12. Have you noticed how GZ’s shirt is well tucked i his pants when he arrives at the police station?

    It suggests two things:
    1) Either, the fight was not intense.
    2) Or, he found time to tuck it before T. Smith took him in custody.

    If (1) then we have a direct contradiction with GZ’s claim that his shirt lifted revealing his concealed gun.
    If (2) then we can wonder hat went through his mind after killing the kid that made him taking care of his shirt.

    I need to add that his holster wasn’t found clipped in his pant but in his waistband. Therefore, either the gun never was concealed or he removed it when tucking his shirt. But then there was no blood found on the holster. So, if he touched it, it must have been with clean hands.

    • He was found with it attached externally on the waistband?

      Also, I took it to mean that his jacket lifted exposing the gun, not his shirt.

      Either way, though, I find it pretty weird that he looks so clean and tidy in the photos taken. The back of his shoes are fine, but the front are noticeably scuffed and dirty. IIRC, his back doesn’t show any visible wet spots from the rain, but the front of his pants did, which suggests he spent more time face down than on his back.

      Btw, how are you feeling Tchoupi? Doing good after your surgery?

    • I have mentioned this before but it is something that continually intrigues me.

      Paramedic interviews:
      Brandy states : GZ was hancuffed behind his back, he had blood on his hands and arms, they lifted up his shirt to check for any other injuries (therefore it had to be pulled out of his pants)…no mention of a jacket

      O’Rourke states: GZ was wearing a polo and jeans…no mention of a jacket

    • tchoupi siad: “I need to add that his holster wasn’t found clipped in his pant but in his waistband. Therefore, either the gun never was concealed or he removed it when tucking his shirt. But then there was no blood found on the holster. So, if he touched it, it must have been with clean hands”.

      It’s starting to make sense to me…..after he tucked the gun into his pants he was seen by a witness putting his hands on his head…hence the medic’s claim of blood on his hands.

      • Something about that pesky, magic blood of GZ bothers me. Paramedics cleaned it off with peroxide but did not stop the flow? He has it at the scene. He doesn’t have it after the paramedics. Remember how everybody was so impressed when he didn’t show any walking into and around the station. Then, later at the station it’s back for the photo shoot. It’s magic.

        • Paramedics stated that the wounds were not bleeding anymore.

          I don’t know if you had a bleeding nose. I had it quite a few times from being hit during sport. It can be impressive and messy but it also stops bleeding after a couple of minutes.

          Briefly, paramedics cleaned up GZ to get visual access to the wounds. That’s it.

      • @LeeLee, there was GZ’s blood found on the handle of the gun. How would you reconcile that?

        • Sorry did not realize that, guess I am confused, thanks. I was mostly wondering how he got the blood on his hands as the paramedics stated and about how his shirt was tucked in after the medics said they lifted it.

          • @LeeLee and @tchoupi, since blood was only on the handle and not the trigger, I imagine that right after the shooting, he tossed the gun aside, and was on TM’s back for some time before he got up to pace back and forth touching his head with at least one hand (as witnessed by Mary/Selma?). I don’t think he reholstered the gun until cell phone Jon came out, as they had their little friendly conversation about guns. Maybe GZ had a little show and tell? At some point with a bloody hand he reholstered the gun, getting blood on the handle, but the holster could be clean because it was still inside his waistband.

            As for the neatly tucked in shirt? That’s a mystery. Maybe the sympthetic cops let Shellie close to him after the medics were done and she tidied him up. Wasn’t she also the one who put on those biga$$ bandages on him as seen the next day? Judging from that and the way she talked to GZ in the jailhouse calls, she seems like the type that is inherently motherly or had been trained to become so from being married to a needy neurotic man. Sorry, now I’m back to being an armchair psychologist. Please do carry on your excellent analysis of the evidence….

            • WSI says “Maybe GZ had a little show and tell?”.

              I find it a very interesting point you’re making. After all, JohnW6 claims he heard GZ say that his gun is on the ground. But, we know T. Smith finds it in his waistband.
              It looks possible that GZ’s gun was on the ground when JonW13 arrived. GZ thinking that JonW13 was a cop, he may have told him about the gun on the ground as heard by JohnW6. GZ would have picked it up during his discussion with JonW13 and put it in his own waistband.
              I love that conclusion as it explains JohnW6’s statement.

              In any case, I still don’t get how the holster that is supposed to be clipped inside his pants ends up in his waistband and there is no blood on it. The holster must have been stuffed in the waistband at a time his hands were not bloodied. That can possibly be when he was in his truck. But, it doesn’t look possible the holster was moved in his pocket after the gunshot. Indeed, the item we know GZ touched after the gunshot has his blood on it.

            • @Tchoupi, you said “I still don’t get how the holster that is supposed to be clipped inside his pants ends up in his waistband and there is no blood on it.”

              I think it’s the waistband OF his pants, so it’s not two separate places. The holster never moved from where it was clipped inside his pants, I believe. He pulled the gun, at some point put it back using a bloodied hand, explaining the blood on the gun handle. I don’t think he needed to touch the holster or if he did, it was with a hand that hadn’t been bloodied yet. When the cops came, I imagine him putting both hands up onto his head in surrender, at which point he could have smeared the blood all over his head making it look like it was “45% covered in blood.” (as stated by one of the cops?)

          • Did they tuck it back in for him? That’d be awkward. I find blood on his arms more interesting than blood on his hands. How did it get on his arms? Did he smear blood around from a bloody nose? Was the blood Trayvon’s? Did he get TM’s blood on him when altering the body? I’ve also thought of something more sinister… He said he had to aim around his hand in order not to shoot himself… What if he was holding onto Trayvon’s hoodie when he shot, and that’s why he had to be careful not to shoot his own hand, and how the blood got on his hands. He’d definitely want to wash THAT away. When did the blood on GZ’s hands get there?

            Never enough answers.

            • If Officer Timothy Smith had to tuck GZ’s shirt in for him, I wonder how fantasy-cop reacted to having a real uniformed officer put his hands in his pants… Maybe gave him flashbacks to his days as an alter boy…
              When Smith got home that night, his wife asked him, “Why did they keep you so late?” And he said, “Well, I had to handle a real hard case…”
              **OK, I’ll stop now. NLME, feel free to delete the weak attempt at gallows humor…**

            • T. Smith to GZ – Is that a gun in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?

              Ok, I know, not funny. 😛

  13. An exercise in UN-redaction.

    Witness 3 connects 15 seconds before the alleged time of gunshot. Let’s look at that portion of her call:
    7:16:41 Dispatch: 911. Is your emergency
    7:16:42 for police, fire, or
    7:16:43 medical?
    7:16:44 W3: Police, please.
    7:16:45 Dispatch: For what address or
    7:16:46 location?
    7:16:47 W3: Um
    7:16:48 I’m at xxxxx and there’s someone
    7:16:49 screaming outside.
    7:16:50 Dispatch: OK, and what is it?
    7:16:54 Is that what you are at?
    7:16:56 W3: Yes. Hurry. There is a
    7:18:57 gunshot. Hurry up.

    Not all of the available recordings are the same. This one at AxiomAmnesia lines up pretty well even with the obvious redaction at 7:16:48. We know her address and that it takes a couple of seconds to say it. I think the answer to What is it? would be something like The Retreat at Twin Lakes.

    I imagine she would say, “There is a gunshot” immediately after hearing it. I don’t hear the gunshot. Why not?

    Why does this matter? Well, it doesn’t here so much. But in witness 11’s call my copy has the shot way off due to redactions. I’m going to have to add time back in. Getting bold. Care to help?

    • @whonose: the recording on your YouTube channel has these times:

      7:16:41 Dispatch: 911. Is your emergency
      7:16:42 for police, fire, or
      7:16:43 medical?
      7:16:44 W3: Police, please.
      7:16:45 Dispatch: For what address or
      7:16:46 location?
      7:16:47 W3: Um
      7:16:48 I’m at xxxxx
      7:16:50 and there’s someone
      7:16:51 screaming outside.
      7:16:59 Dispatch: Is that what
      7:17:00 you are at?
      7:17:01 W3: Yes. Hurry.
      7:17:02 There is a gunshot.

      See? When you compare this to the one above you see that the recordings out there are not all the same. It’s the redaction that is different. The big gap is missing some of the text we know from the first one. Again in this one the sound of the shot is apparently redacted. But, the shot looks to be 5 seconds later.

      Thanks for your attention. I’m trying to get somewhere with this. Promise.

      • S. Jay:
        I made my 911 videos from the original recordings released by the SPD on the City of Sanford website. Since the silences vary in length, I assume they redacted the info by replacing it with silence, preserving the time integrity of the recording start-to-finish. in general, I have found that material on Axiom Amnesia is often incomplete, and often edited (for brevity, or their concepts of relevance, I would assume).
        All the recordings of witness interviews I’ve heard, in contrast, are redacted by splicing OUT the info, closing up the gaps…

    • Redaction and un-redaction is an artform. I have straightened out times for 911 calls of w3, w11, and w18 now.

      Witness 3 was easy because it started so close to the gunshot. Witness 11 I got from Teeslaw (whonose)’s YouTube channel. Witness 18 is basically unredacted on ForThePublicRecord’s YouTube channel.

  14. This is a strange question but I will ask anyway. Does anyone know if either Ostermans smoke cigarettes?

    • Hey there Loree! Yep, that is a strange question. No don’t know. Why do you ask about Ostermans and cigarettes?

      • I was checking out the 7-11 video and I don’t know if you remember we were talking about the woman in the video might be Shellie or Sandra. I was fooling around with some screenshots with the Sandra’s pic from the Dr.Phil show and her other pics. It very close, but I’m not sure. But anyways she is buying cigarettes, was wondering if she or her husband was a smoker.

        • Whoever that woman was, it looked like she wasn’t buying for herself. She pointed and asked about some, then they showed her one close up, then she asked for and got a different pack. People buying for themselves usually know exactly what they want (and their second choice if it’s not available). This looked like buying for someone else.

      • Yes. I was thinking maybe Mark is not the one who saw TM first. The timing of her leaving the store, if its her, would put her closer to the time TM is at the mailboxes waiting out the rain.

        • Can’t remember where I read it or who said it, but someone thought that it sounded like GZ was packing a pack of cigarettes somewhere on the NEN tape. I believe the person also speculated that he could be heard taking a puff and exhaling on the tape. *shrug* Wonder if GZ’s a smoker.

          • IIRC
            From his Myspace page it read smoke/drink no/yes
            Just drinks, but that was in 2005. He could of picked up the habit. IDK

        • That woman i s 10 minutes or so after TM leaves the store. So she’d not have seen him there. MAY have seen him at mailboxes if she then drove into RATL, timing-wise. But there’s nothing to say she was there at all, whereas MO definitely was, at least minutes after the shooting.

    • Sorry. Only seen 3 photos of them and they were not smoking in any of them. On the Facebook there is (or was) a set of photos, some family messing around, if you can still find that you might be able to see if there’s ashtrays anywhere.

  15. So what does everyone think about the alleged Osterman book excerpts posted online (you know where) that describe yet more inconsistencies ? Would there likely be any legal ramifications or consequences as to their posting them online ?

    • I can’t trust that site. I have read a little and I think if Osterman wrote this, it doesn’t help his friend one bit. I wonder if Dr. Phil will post some excerpts on his site. Checking out the promo for the airing on Sept 10th, he had both of them in tears.

    • @LeeLee, FWIW, you’re absolutely not a troll in our eyes (was that you that somehow made it onto an unsubstantiated suspected troll list over at Leathermans? How’d that happened? Craziness….)

      Osterman does not have a gag order on him so I’m thinking his writing a book is similar to any of the other witnesses talking to media. The difference however is that he is a close confidant of GZ who was there in the aftermath and would have heard anything that GZ might have said that was not revealed to the public. While I can’t think of any legal ramifications for himself in writing the book, it seems foolish if his intention truly were to help GZ. These inconsistencies don’t seem innocent, and it seems like he’s trying to twist the facts to favor GZ. He’ll likely be questioned about them when they put him on the stand.

      1) Inconsistencies that mirror what GZ claimed.
      The excerpt parroted what GZ said about the dispatcher telling him to go where he could see TM. Of course we all know this was not true from the NEN tape. I think it would be important to know if Osterman heard this as a narrative directly from GZ or if he got this from reviewing the re-enactment tape. Or even better yet, is this evidence he concoct the whole story with GZ before the re-enactment? Remember, this excerpt came from an earlier draft of the book. Maybe it was written before that police video was released, and Osterman didn’t actually know how stupidly inconsistent that statement was when compared with the NEN call.

      2) Inconsistencies that were NOT claimed by GZ.
      As I noted in my post before, the excerpt stated that GZ wrestled the gun away from TM, suggesting that TM had a hold of it. GZ never said that TM touched the gun. Now the fact that TM’s DNA was not found on the gun does not 100% prove he didn’t touch it in some manner but the evidence supports the notion that TM didn’t touch the gun. Another inconsistency according to the book was that GZ saw TM looking INTO the houses, and his suspicion arose from knowing that a shorter guy lived at the house (Taaffe) and not someone that tall. Ok, this is such a blatant effort to disguise the racial profiling. He was basing it on height and not race or even personally known Taaffe? GZ never said these things in the multiple statements to the police.

      Again, it would be important to know if these details were actually described by GZ to Osterman or did he get them from looking at and confusing details in the evidence dumps? The looking “into the houses” was something that came from GZ’s previous NEN calls. Did the ghost writer try to fill in gaps to be able to fill out the book? Even so, Osterman is the “writer” and should rubberstamp every detail in that book.

      Osterman’s role was only supposed to be the upstanding Air Marshall and character witness for GZ. In the end, it probably doesn’t matter what Osterman says GZ said. It’s what the evidence can prove, right? Now if O’Mara had any hand in this book, that’s whole nuther can o’ legal worms, wouldn’t you think?

      • Hello WSI, yes I was labelled a troll by a regular poster on the professor’s blog…while the real culprit has resumed tweeting disparaging remarks and people’s email addesses… sigh…I am sure I am next on her hit list…but enough said about her for today, I am sure there is more to come.

        Great post btw, love the way you categorized the inconsistencies. I glanced over at Talkleft earlier and although I don’t subscribe to her defense of GZ at all, the lawyer there posted regarding the possible legal implication of the book which I found interesting in that it could be used to impeach GZ’s testimony if he were to ever take the stand.goi

        Also it seems as though the leak of some excerpts was not approved by the Osterman’s…so there is something strange going on. I was wondering if the information leaked on the internet could be used by the prosecution at this time.

  16. I am not that computer savy. I wish I could post what I have, a collage of sorts of Sondra and the lady from the 7-11. I don’t know how to do it. : (((

        • I vote no match on this one. The woman at the 7-11 is thinner than the current picture of SO. That picture of MO and SO was supposedly taken on their wedding day. They got married in 1996.

          Back in 1996, SO was 21. She’s gained weight in 16 years and after pregnancy. I don’t think she would have gained that much weight in a few months (that taping was also done some time ago).

          Of course, I’m also a skeptic and never believed it was MO at the ATM either.

          • Okie Dokie
            Thanks for taking a look. I’m getting the hang of this now maybe I can do a better job of putting it together.
            : ^ ))

          • Hard to say, i wish the picture was bigger, I am almost blind, lol, but I would venture not a match.

            For what it’s worth, since you mentioned MO, I read a post from that Odessa girl that it is not MO at the bank……so many pieces to this puzzle.

            • @LeeLee, I know it’s disappointing to the conspiracy theorists, but I wouldn’t think that MO would be going so public if he had anything to do with the lead-up to the shooting itself. The OG lady has also said that the beefy security guy walking GZ out was some guy from the bond place. While she has no credibility about TM’s phone and other evidence on the case, in reading her posts, I tend to believe her on this one. That guy doesn’t look anything like MO as pictured in the TV promo. Then could all of our conclusions about him providing security for GZ be wrong? Given the recent drama about the book, I highly suspect there was a rift between the Ostermans and GZ or his family at some point after penning this book. There’s definitely something strange going on with the GZ family in any case. Despite being estranged from GZ, they were forced to come to his defense at the bond hearing and are regretting it ever since. It’s clear that GZ’s father and MO hooked up early on (i.e. going to the re-enactment together), and maybe RZ, Sr. was the one who got to read the early draft. But since the evidence dump was released with MO’s statements in there about how GZ was beaten by his mother and his father was a passive enabler to the abuse, the family probably didn’t take too kindly to having dirty laundry aired.

              About the use of the leaked manuscript by prosecution, I really can’t see how they’d use the actual details in it. It’s supposedly a stolen copy which could be altered by anyone and not considered a final published book. They couldn’t hold GZ accountable for text floating around the internet. What it COULD lead them to do I would think once the actual book comes out is to make comparisons with any changes to it and then question the reasons for those changes. Many inconsistencies can be attributed to influences by a ghostwriter, etc. Maybe they could make him make a statement under oath now to clarify the inconsistencies and THAT statement would then be added to the evidence? I don’t know if it’s hearsay and how that can be used directly against GZ. If it becomes clear that MO allowed a doctored story to come out, at the least his credibility as a character witness for GZ goes down the drain. Alright, enough of me yammering on about something (legal stuff) I know nil about. Please anyone with a legal mind please chime in….

    • Chad is w10. This was revealed in one of the lists of discovery. He is son of w7 Brandy Green. He is the one the Skittles were for. He was interviewed April 27, 2012 by T.C. O’Steen (and de la Rionda?) of the State Attorney’s Office.

      Chad will know when Trayvon left for the store, what he took with him, whether he had a key to let himself in. He might have called or text’d with Trayvon during the trip. I’ve heard he was playing a video game with headphones on so probably missed hearing the gunshot. He might have some sign of Trayvon having been there after the store.

      • Is Chad’s last name different from his mom? If it is, he wouldn’t be W10, as someone pointed out the witness list is alphabetical.

        He did have contact with TM. In the 2nd dump, he said he called (I believe called, not texted), and TM told him he was on his way home. Chad stated that he was playing video games with headphones in his room, which faces the front of the houses, so he did not hear or see anything. He waited up for his parents to tell them Trayvon had not returned then went to bed. His dad tried to contact him/his cousin. They went to bed, but called police in the morning after TM was still not home, and the cousin said TM was not with him.

  17. DeeDee’s phone interview with Attorney Crump was on Monday, March 19, 2012.

    I have deciphered 90% of it. The rest is such poor quality that I have my doubts about it for now. The sources all seem poor. We could work our way through together. It starts:

    Crump: OK. Attorney Crump and the family here. We saw from the phone records you and Trayvon talked pretty much all day. Can you just walk me through this day of uh how many times you talked to Trayvon that day and what kind of state of mind was he in. Talk loud for me.

    Dee Dee: We talked all day. Like I talked and texted with him. No text, yeah, but I talked to him.

    Any corrections are greatly appreciated. I used AxiomAmnesia. If anyone wants to have a try I’d like to know what she says between markers 00:52 and 01:06 where I have (unintelligible) below:

    00:52 DeeDee: He was, he was good, I mean. He was a happy boy. (unintelligible)
    Crump: OK, and then just tell me, tell me 01:06

    Different sound cards, speakers, and headphones make a difference. Most sound effects add distortion rather than clarity. I wonder if the frequencies of her voice could be isolated. Anybody know somebody who has access to a pristine copy of this interview?

    • :52-1:06 comes off really garbled for me with lots of background noise, but I think the last word is mom, so that’s really of no help – huh?

    • Whonoze has been the only person I know who listen to that interview in details.

      Whonoze, are you still around?

      • Still here.

        Can’t make out most of it. I’m still convinced ABC has a clean intelligible tape of the whole thing they’re not giving out, though I suspect they also gave Crump a copy. It seems (see my ‘Redaction by reduction’ post on the whonoze blog) that the State can satisfy discovery rules by giving out ANY kind of copy of evidence (e.g. a Xerox of a photo), no matter how inferior to the actual material in hand, so Corey might have a clean version of DeeDee/Crump as well, and just be concealing the fact. Why? I don’t know.

        Trying to parse the released recording of that interview actually hurts physically. All props to Screamin’ Jay for making the effort. I did listen to it a number of times, and while I couldn’t make out exact wording, I did (as I have reported) strongly feel I got the gist of the part where DeeDee was telling Crump about Trayvon ducking out of the rain, to be point where I became sure she was talking about the mailbox area at The Retreat, not, say, the apartment complex to the West.

        Beyond that, I’m waiting to see what SJ comes up with…

        • Benjamin Crump made it together with ABC news. So, he probably has a clear copy, if not the original. He gave it to the Department of Justice for their racial investigation, too. Mr. Crump is biased for the family, so his technique was to get DeeDee to tell the story against GZ. Other interviewers like John Batchelor are impartial.

          I’m going ahead with what is clear. DeeDee tells us quite a bit between the two interviews. The case is a matter of successive approximation. I’ll be adjusting my files as more becomes revealed to us.

          • SJ, my main man! I’m impressed that you were able to transcribe that much of the Crump/ABC News/ Dee Dee interview – it was hard to even listen to just a few times for me. Do you have a partial transcript you can share of just THIS interview? I see your “composite” version but I’m more curious to read what the Crump one was like alone.

            I also agree that there exists a clear recording somewhere besides what the SAO / Corey released to the public. I have no idea why the version the SAO released is such a poor copy but it seems that a Freedom of Information Act search should be submitted by someone, somehow. Maybe if it were filed against the Department of Justice there could be a result.

            I’m guessing that ABC provided the tech to make the original, and shared it with Crump but it could also be that Crump recorded at the same time to a separate device – the device he has in the press conference. That’s the only snippets I can really understand.

            Crump shared his recording with the DOJ, but how exactly did Corey’s office come to possess the recording? Did they get it from Crump, or ABC, or the DoJ?

            I think there is an detail that is falling through the cracks that might help explain Dee Dee’s story better and is worth keeping in mind. After TM left the mail kiosk, he reconnected with Dee Dee and this was BEFORE he ran behind the townhomes. I believe at that time GZ was either making a uTurn or else trailing TM with his vehicle and this is not only what causes TM to run, but is also something Dee Dee either vaguely understood or has communicated to John Bachelor/BDLR in the recording we can understand. Her dialect of English uses the phrase “behind” in a way that is hard to parse exactly, but she may be trying to say that the car was behind TM and in motion. I wish she had been asked more directly about this. She’s clearly speaking about at least two episodes of TM being followed, but IMO the first instance is when TM was walking and GZ was following in his car. This car-shadowing is where TM KNOWS he is being followed by the creepy guy on the cell phone, but the NEXT bit is when he first only suspects the guy is afoot and following him. IMO TM would never have seen GZ exit his car, only that a similar person was on foot behind him after TM ran away.

  18. i still feel sick in my stomach when i realise this child is never coming back. Through all the evidence and gz lies I hope his family find peace. Trayvon you deserved better, i hope the truth prevails.

  19. WSI,
    I thought about the gun being concealed in the waistband.
    I want to see where the pockets are located and how far low they are on his blue jean. Because, during reenactement, GZ says “I had my firearm on my right side hip” and he seems to me that he touches his hip at a place where there usually is no pocket.

    Moreover, earlier in the reenactment, he says that he thought that he put his cell phone in his pant pocket and then he slightly bends forward and slightly turns his head to look down his right pocket. He says he didn’t find his phone there were he use to put it. But, he doesn’t say that he found his his gun instead. That would be interesting, though.

    Furthermore, in the interview at the police station later on that same Monday, he tells the same story, that his that he looked for his phone in the front right pocket of his pant (where T. Smith found the gun & the holster) and that he had his gun on his right hip (he touches it again with his right hand).

    Without the image of his pant, I cannot exclude the possibility that GZ concealed the gun in his pocket. But honestly, GZ says that gun was not concealed in a pocket but in his pant on his hip. If that’s the case then at what point did he moved the holster in his pocket without putting blood on it?

    The best answer is that the gun was in his pocket and not concealed.

    • @tchoupi, you said “he tells the same story, that his that he looked for his phone in the front right pocket of his pant (where T. Smith found the gun & the holster) and that he had his gun on his right hip”

      Correct me if I misunderstood your statement there, but I believe that T. Smith found the gun and holster in Zimmerman’s waistband and not in his pocket (See my references and quotes below). I don’t know of any document/evidence that says that the gun was found in his pocket after the shooting.

      However, I can understand your suspicion about GZ maybe having his gun in his pocket initially when he got out of the truck. Awhile back, I read or saw a video where during the NEN call, someone interpreted the rustling sounds as GZ getting his gun out of the glove compartment. If that were the case, then he could have hastily shoved it into his pocket instead of his waistband when he went running after TM. However, I don’t think this can be proven. From a legal standpoint though, isn’t having a gun in your pocket still “concealed” like a woman having a gun in her handbag is “concealed”, or are there specific laws about where a man is supposed to keep the gun on his person? I don’t know. Of course, shoving a gun in your pocket as you run after a “suspicious person” shows a depraved mind, doesn’t it? A normal sane person doesn’t carry a gun around in his pocket going to Target.

      Whether the gun was in his pocket or his waistband, his claim of reaching for his phone to call 911 when he saw TM is BOGUS because 1) he already knew a cop was on the way and 2) he had a gun. He had always been itching to play Clint Eastwood (Make my day!).

      On page 15 of the 1st evidence dump:
      T. Smith reports “Located on the inside of Zimmerman’s waist band, I retreived a black Kel-tec 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster”

      On the 23rd page of the 2nd evidence dump:

      Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

      T. Smith said that “Zimmerman had a gun/holster on the right side inside the waistband of his pants.”

      • If he did actually have the gun drawn, or in a pocket for faster access etc, then putting it back in the holster after the shooting is a necessary piece of misdirection. …. if it is FOUND in the holster at the waistband, the assumption is that it CAME from there. Of course this itself is tampering with the crime scene, as the gun was originally on the ground. It would have been interesting to know WHERE.

  20. I’m anxiously awaiting the release of the official time stamps for the 911 calls, as I’ll get to do a little victory dance if I got them right by deduction way back when, and I’ll have to eat some crow if I made any major errors. (tchoupi seems to have come to very similar deductions independently, so at least I’m in good company one way or the other…)

    • You can of convinced me tow swap Mary C with JohnW6. So, but knowing that I expect the two to be just 6sec apart, it won’t be a huge mistake on my side.

          • @Loree
            “I will pass along your work to other sites”

            Hopefully, Leatherman’s blog since he’s an attorney. I’m thinking with the eye witness to the fight, the who followed who, who punched first is not relevant and maybe this young boy’s eye witness to the fight is why he dropped SYG.

            Off topic, I nominate Michelle’s shoulders for their very own cabinet position. Just wow and her dress. Double wow. Oh, yes, the speech was also lovely but those shoulders are in a class of their own.

    • Jay:

      I think for W11 you should find a method to distinguish when she is talking to the 911 operator, and when she is talking to Jeremy.

      Also, I suggest you do find some way to indicate passages where you are not sure what is being said from those that are clear. E.g. I don’t know what Jeremy says, but it’s NOT “It’s warned in this area.”

      • Right. That should say [unintelligible] for Jeremy. Thanks. I’ve got to see about update/replace in

        Tchoupi must have done all this for his/her timeline. Due to redactions we still need to adjust timing. I’m not saying mine is right. I basically used audio I found online to start. It’s successive approximation. I love how you can learn by comparing them to each other in time. Keep in mind that the flashlights W13 and Officer Smith both came in on the sidewalk from 2861 RVC. So, those north like W18 and to the west like W6 will probably see the light before the ones on the east like w19.

        • Jay, any bits like “it’s warned in this area” that you are not sure about, use a different text colour. Blue, say. Then at the bottom of the column for that witness all the speculations/possibilities can be collected. You could also colour code side talk with other witnesses, say in green.

          As the tapes are timed for tape duration, not real time, you could also add the tape time for the controversial bits, so people could listen for themselves and make their own guesses.

          On my copy I colour-highlighted a row across for the moment of the shot, and another row for the first mention of a police presence. The first mention of flashlights could be marked, too.

          A couple of the tapes seem too truncated, eg where there’s only 1 or 2 seconds missing for the giving of the address. I’ll finish marking up my copy and post it back to the site, if that can be done.

          • aussiekay, I’m also wanting to compile questions for all the witnesses. Things that their interviews left out. Additional things we need to know. Cross questioning to verify what other witnesses said.

            I have a few more ideas on how to get the timed transcriptions of the police calls to be right after each redaction edit. The sections between the edits are correct and are easily moved down in the spreadsheet. This is a sub-project in itself.

    • @Jay, this is excellent indeed! Time well spent. Before this spreadsheet gets passed around, can I just suggest that you “redact” the witness names on the spreadsheet? Or use initials and witness numbers, or at least just use their first names? And also abbreviate the street names on the addresses as TTL and RVC? I know this information is “out there” but it’s not readily so. I don’t know if all of these people have moved from these addresses also. The less that we contribute to splashing these people’s personal info out there, the better. I know if I were ever a witness in a case, I wouldn’t want anything about the case to forever follow me around when people look me up in a Google search. Don’t you agree?

    • (For like the 100th time) Thank you! This is great, SJ. Just a quick correction, W6 said rock, not rocket, so you might want to fix that in the doc.

    • This is just brilliant brilliant work Jay, thanks so much.

      So W3 didnt see anything before the shot, just heard yelling and the gun shot. After the gun shot they say “Oh my God, the guy on top had a white t-shirt”. So since in real time this witness did not see anything before the shot “white t-shirt” guy is Zimmerman on top of Trayvon.

      7.22.47 Witness 18 says how she heard 2 men talking and wondered what they were doing in the rain. She then says it looked like they were talking or maybe wrestling. So is that confirmation that the wrestling started while they were standing up perhaps? If they were on the ground then you wouldn’t confuse that with talking, so they must have been standing when the wrestling started, probably gz trying to detain Trayvon.

      I know these calls have been out there forever but it really helps to see them side by side like this Jay, thanks for your hard work.

      • jo, I thought about what you said about w3. I sense two interpretations for her location when saying “white tee-shirt.” My first impression was that she was locked in her front room looking for the police to arrive, calling here family, and such. From there she remembered in her mind about the whiteness of the shirt and told dispatch. Did she look while still on 911 call? If she was actually looking out the back window at the time she says, “Oh, my God. The guy on top had a white tee-shirt”, around 7:19:31, then you have caught another witness looking out when they said they didn’t.

        These are conflicting but, both are strong possibilities. I’ll have to study it more. This would affect my composite for w3. When she saw Officer T. Smith he may have just turned onto TTL. I don’t even think he knocked on her door. Whenever he got there she would have perhaps felt safe enough to look at the scene a second time. The policeman would keep the shooter from breaking into her downstairs. Fear from that idea can be heard on her call after the dispatcher asks, “Do you hear squealing of tires or anything?” and in one of her interviews she explains, “So, I’m assuming he was going to try and run somewhere when he was finished. So, that’s why I called because I was scared. I was here by myself.”

        Is this trivial? Maybe not.
        1) if she saw the white-shirt before the shot and was speaking to dispatch from memory, the white shirt could be Taaffe. I think John(w6) saw them, then w3 saw them, and finally Austin (w14). They could have been seeing different things.
        2) if she was looking out after the shot and telling dispatch as she saw him, then the white shirt is probably GZ. By that time, GZ had gotten up and was over Trayvon’s body or away from it. I’ll have to check the timing of all this.

        • hi jay, thanks for the response. I’m thinking she saw zim on top of Trayvon after the shot, when zim was “frisking” him. It might explain “white tee-shirt” guy being on top and confuse it with being during the fight…..she remembers a white tee shirt on top, but did not mention it during the call because she only heard the altercation before the shot.

          Also Jay, what do you think of the comment about 2 men arguing or maybe wrestling from w18? If they were on the ground then there would be no question if they were arguing or wrestling…they would have to be wrestling. So when w18 says arguing or maybe wrestling it tells me they were still on their feet which once again throws GZ’s story of being king hit out the window (there are many reasons why i don’t believe he was king hit….the fact that the altercation ended so far south of where he was apparently smashed into the turf one of them, but this is a witness account that they were arguing/wrestling and not one person smashing the life out of another). Thanks xx

          • Sounds like it. At the moment I feel like the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz. Need sleep and my brain is getting fried.

            Tell you what. We have lots of explanation given by W18 that will help verify this. A 14 minute police call. She gave written statements to SPD officer Mead and private investigator John Wright. She was interviewed by Serino, Anderson Cooper, Ashleigh Banfield, and Gilbreath. I’ll upload transcriptions of these soon.

            • “Need sleep and my brain is getting fried.”

              Welcome to the fried brains club!

          • @Jo –

            W3 didn’t go back to the window after her initial look before calling 9-1-1 (unless she’s being untruthful which I doubt) and the gunshot went off after she’d left the window and while she was on the 9-1-1 call. She mentioned the white tee-shirt while on the 9-1-1 call. What makes you think she saw what she said she saw (white tee-shirt) after the gunshot?

            • hi CSFC. The operator asks a couple of time “did you see anything” and there is no response and then at 7:18:18 the operator asks “Ok. Stay on the line with me and just update me. Did you see anything at all, or you just heard screaming? W3: I heard screaming and then one gunshot. Dispatch: Ok.” W3 said later that the guy in the white tshirt was on top, couldn’t see who white tshirt was on top of and was asked did they get up and run and W3 said i don’t know i merely came to the phone and rang you. The gunshot went off when they were on the phone. It’s hard to tell because at first they said they only heard screaming and a gunshot. Later they mention the white tshirt so did w3 look out before the shot or perhaps after the shot while on the phone they had a peak and white tshirt was on top then.

            • also when dispatch say they have people on the way W3 says that they see the police now (very soon after the shot so was probably witness john) so they did look out very soon after the shot when GZ was probably on top frisking trayvon. .

            • @Jo –

              Disregard for the moment the analysis shown here at Axiom Amnesia (which is a compiled summary of the NEN and the statements) and listen to the actual NEN call:

              The call is not very long (approx 4 mins). W3 calls and calmly states “police please” to get them to respond to the screaming. About 10-12 seconds later, (@.25) she gets really excited and her voice changes as she says “yes hurry there was just a gunshot”.

              Approximately 51 seconds later (@1:06), W3 sees a policemen (from her front window, not where Zimmerman is out back). W3 then explains that the officer needs to go to the back of her house. The dispatch even says “tell me so I can tell them”.

              Each time she is asked about anything occurring after the gunshot, she says she doesn’t know because she ran to call 9-1-1 while the screaming was still occurring.

            • i thought she said she didn’t see anything she only heard the yelling and then the shot. Or did i miss something and she says she looked out before calling?

    • Screaming jay, thank you so much for this. I had not realized the young boy saw the fight. I believe that must be the eye witness Serino was referring to ( actually figured he was bluffing GZ) in his interview. The young boy didn’t witness the actual gunshot but he clearly witnessed up close the fight and who was yelling and who was winning, who was terrified.
      Thank heaven his dog saved him from the actual killing. I hope he has received some therapy.
      Very grateful for everyone’s dedication.

      • “Thank heaven his dog saved him from the actual killing. I hope he has received some therapy. Very grateful for everyone’s dedication.”

        Ditto that!

      • I just listened to w14, Austin’s interview / Serino and not sure what changed but he says he only saw one person and that person was wearing red. So he either didn’t actually see the fight as is he says on the 911 call sheet or he changed. He seems very nervous and reticent. So sorry good people I’m an idiot for putting my 2 cents in based just on the sister’s, w15, words to 911 operator. Based on that I retract my hopeful insight. I think what they said to 911 operator is called an excited utterance said in the heat of the moment (in legal parlance).

        However, I wasn’t mistaken on saying Ms. Obama’s shoulders deserve their own cabinet position. WOW is such an understatement 🙂

        • W18 also says he put his hand on his head. Actually she describes it as him bending forwards and putting his hand on his head the way somebody would do if he was looking at something at a distance.

          • @Amsterdam –

            “bending forwards”

            Just like the blood evidence shows. Zimmerman can’t prove his blood flowed any way other than foward… towards his face as if he leaned down and was not on his back.

        • Love, love, love Michelle Obama’s arms and her transition from a mere beautiful person into a physically polished and still beautiful person to round out who she’s always been.

  21. Don’t recall if this was discussed, but I am having trouble with what Mr. Zimmerman says Listen forward from 7:55, the remarks come up about the 8:00
    Why would he say such a thing. Did GZ tell him he was with someone and he wants to know if the state knows?
    Any thoughts….

    • That is weird. It sounds like he’s trying to ask if they have anymore advice or info, but he doesn’t finish the thought before they start to tell him they’re working on it. He then goes into how there’s nothing he can do other than sit and watch the news… “then all of a sudden, well, maybe he was on patrol with someone else and something else happened.” Where is he getting that from??? Is he trying to say that was going around on the news…because I certainly don’t remember that.

      Thanks for pointing that out, Loree!

      • Its weird. I am searching for stories prior to that interview March 19th.
        I like you don’t recall anything regarding him being on watch just going to the Target store.

    • I believe he’s trying to say he expects that to be the next thing he’ll see on the news, as an example of ‘crazy things’ that are being said in the media. That is, in context, he’s saying that would be nonsense. And the “and something else happened” i think refers to the news digging up something bad about GZ BESIDES the events of 2/26. But Robert Sr. is a Zimmeman, so maybe he picked that particular example for a reason. My guess would be that the ‘someone else” is a figurative reference to Mark Osterman, who Robert would know because they were hanging together during the ‘re-enactment’, and becuase GZ was staying at MO’s house. He’s not admitting Osterman was involved. it’s like he’s saying “Why these pit vipers are so awful, the next thing they’ll say is that Mark was involved in something bad, too!” Which may be ironic, intentionally or unintentionally…

    • i haven’t seen this before. Seems like he is frustrated with the media and is complaining to the police about all the stories out there and wants the police to come out and say what happened (well what george said happened). I think after 7.55 he is talking about another story he’s heard, making a point that all of a sudden george is on patrol with someone else and something else happened, pointing out some of the stories out there as he obviously believes GZ’s version (spending too much time on the internet). He believes it happened exactly the way gz said it did (or at least one of the versions gz has told) and is thinking that george is not going to get charged and everyone is going to go ape shit unless the police come out and tell everyone what “really” happened….of course turns out george WAS charged and the story is gonna come out in court.

    • That is an extraordinary quote from Robert Zimmerman Sr. you have found! Here he is, whining Walter Brennen style about his out-of-control son:

      “There’s nothing I can do, you know, except, look at the news and then, all of a sudden . . .
      Well, maybe he was on patrol with somebody else, and something else happened.
      Or, you know, I don’t know, but every day almost . . .”

      So George was on patrol with somebody that night? Oh my. How else could it be that he could be on patrol with someone else unless he had been on patrol with someone the first time? And then what were you expecting Robert? Another murder? Were you expecting your son to carry on with his NW vigilantism?

      • Thank you Marilyn.
        It begs the questions, why would you say something like that unless you are on a fishing for what the state knows. I just don’t get the Zimmermans. He does the same thing GZ does. I believe there is an art to get people to reveal things by you saying something to get them to talk. If I wanted to know something but didn’t want to right out and ask I would start off by saying you know such and such and let you take it from there. Cops do it all the time. Bosses do it. Husbands and wives do it. Some are better at it then others.

      • @Marilyn, see my post above about timing of Frank Taaffe in the media. Before jumping to conclusions, let’s consider that he was reacting to/mentioning other people’s theories on the internet saying that GZ was not alone, conspiracy theories that abound to this day. It’s the chicken or the egg thing.

        • @marilyn, I just realized my reply to you might have sounded kinda snarky. Didn’t mean to be. I guess I should clarify that similar to what Whonoze just said, my take on what RZ Sr said was he was watching the media or reading the net, and all of a sudden people are saying this and saying that, such as GZ was out patrolling with somebody else and something else other than what GZ told him actually happened. He’s confused and frustrated. Since Taaffe came out in the media before the recording of RZ, I’m guessing that people commenting on the local media sites were already suspecting Taaffe as being involved somehow. Just my 2 cents. By the chicken or the egg thing, I meant it would be ironic for a theory to come out in the net, bounce off RZ, come back here and then land back in his mouth via this recording. That was the same problem I think with the video of Brandi saying that TM was on her porch and then somebody shot him. She made assumptions without being a witness, it got on tape and people jumped on that comment. Based on that comment, the pro-GZ people have even gone so far as to theorize that TM made it home, changed clothes (I guess he happens to have multiple dark hoodies) and then come back out to find GZ. All in an effort to explain the missing couple of minutes. But I digress…….

          • There were assorted “two people” theories from the first mention of “White TeeShirt”. One side was theorising an unknown assistant/patrol buddy, the other was claiming Chad or Tracy helping TM with the attack.

            • I remember hearing the Sanford police got there early and tasered poor Trayvon as GZ held him down. Supposedly those electrical bolts can be heard on the first 911 call. That is what Trayvon was screaming in pain from. Hearing that really got me wondering about his case. I don’t believe it, though. And I don’t think it was ever mentioned here.

    • Thanks, Loree. I don’t remember hearing this one all the way through til you pointed out this talk about someone else being with George Zimmerman. It would be so ironic if the source of the “conspiracy” turns out to be Robert Zimmerman!

  22. Well I guess we can check here at bcclist. When did we start theories of another possible person with him or a tip off…

    • I didn’t think it was until FT came out in the media… I’d say not until 2+ months after 2/26

      • In the media it was all about him not getting arrested. His comment would of made more sense much later. that interview was about 2 weeks after the shooting.

        • That’s why I think it’s weird/interesting. Like it was mentioned, maybe he was just saying what he thought the next wacky idea would be since he knew MO was on scene, etc. Still think it’s a bit interesting to come out with that exact scenario. I don’t think anyone really thought this was anything more than an amped up, over zealous dude who was trying to protect his community, but fucked up. It was when his friends and family came out that really drew attention and the theories into overdrive. They should have all just kept their mouths shut, lol.

          • @qetno, “They should have all just kept their mouths shut”

            It’s GZ that should have kept his mouth shut, if he had even two marbles in his head. I think like many upon first hearing the story, I thought OMG crazy vigilante. The more I read and heard what came out of GZ’s own mouth, the more I thought, this crazy guy doesn’t know he’s hanging himself. And the circus continued thru the Hannity interview and now by proxy through Osterman’s book. It’s his ego that led him to shoot TM and his ego that’s giving the prosecution plenty to work with. While I haven’t whole hearted subscribed to any theory about someone helping GZ or that he went on a specific “hunt” that night, it’s clear that if he hadn’t run into TM that night, he eventually would have shot some other poor unsuspecting kid, as he was convinced every young black male was up to no good. While his family may not be having any fun, I’ll bet he’s relishing this attention and whatever “support” that he’s getting from the nuts out there.

            On second thought, keep on talking GZ, keep on talking…..

  23. Have a look at DeeDee’s composite sequence:

    This next step is to put all of what each witness has said into their own merged sequence and time them. I need this in order to put them side by side as I did in the 911 calls spreadsheet. DeeDee’s two interviews when put together in this way read like a good drama novelette.

    I’d like your ideas on the times the sections in her composite took place.

    • Another text coding suggestion Jay:

      Can you use different text forms (plain, italic, bold) and/or different fonts to distinguish what parts of your composite are

      a: direct quotes from the Crump interview
      b. paraphrases from the Crump interview
      c: direct quotes from the BdlR interview
      d. paraphrases from the BdlR interview
      e: editorial summaries, [maybe in brackets?] — I’m assuming DeeDee didn’t actually say “I recall the conversations were in the morning, in the afternoon, and all through the day until the final call.”

      • simpler request: is there a link to just the transcript of the crump interview?

        Thanks again for the work…

        • I’ve created a folder for the case files:

          Now you can see the Crump interview as I transcribed it from There are location markers I put in to help as I continue to work on the transcription. You can use them to locate and listen. I will be adding other witness files tomorrow. I have transcripts and composites for several witnesses.

      • I’ll color code in pass 2 of my project. Great idea. I still need a couple of weeks to just get it all in place. Working on the times right now. I realized today that I need a new section between Found and Argument. It will be called Fast Walking Chase.

        I did not add editorial summaries in my composites. Though, I’m interested in yours. Here’s how the processing works. When the raw interview goes:

        BDLR: OK, and do you recall whether the conversations were in the morning, or in the afternoon, or all through the day until the final until the final… In other words, did you talk to him earlier that day?
        Dee Dee: In the morning.
        BDLR: OK…alright…
        Dee Dee: All day, it seem…
        BDLR: OK, you talked to him during the day?
        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        It becomes “I recall the conversations were in the morning, in the afternoon, and all through the day until the final call.”

        Admittedly, they were his words. He is not impartial. He is leading her. But, she signs off on them. I think the result is accurate. I feel we need to process a little for efficiency. I’m more concerned about getting things in the wrong place and unintentionally changing significance or meaning that way. The witnesses don’t talk in chrono order. And the interviewer asks things out of order.

  24. According to Screamin’ Jay’s transcript, Dee Dee said the following:

    DeeDee: he knew [09:28] that he was on the phone to somebody so he was about to make a run for it from the back. cause somebody was following him very close [09:41] with the car.

    IMO this is a very significant puzzle piece that has been GREATLY under-appreciated. If she heard enough from Trayvon to know that this happened, it fills in the gaps to give a very clear picture of what is actually happening during the NEN call.

    I had worried that the call dropping and picking up again had created a hole where she didn’t know what happened between the clubhouse and the cut thru as the two traveled down Twin Trees Lane. She does’t mention this car-to-pedestrain chase specifically in the interview with BDLR.

    Even just the detail that Trayvon had waited under the mail kiosk was enough to use to deduce that TM was chased by a moving car – the timing of the action described is such that this had to be the case – but it’s a HUGE boost for the prosecution’s case that there is a real live ear witness to that part of the events of the evening.

    It looks like in addition to the audio fidelity problems with the SAO’s copy of the Crump/ABC/Dee Dee interview that there is a gap in the recording as well, a significant one where the portion of the story that should contain the contemporaneous reciting of the move from mail kiosk to cut thru is missing. But the subject is broached again in a later part of the interview, thank goodness.

    GZ is caught in a pack of lies regarding his movements from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area, and this final puzzle piece, which is news to me, seals the prosecution’s case insofar as showing that George has ZERO credibility whatsoever. It now 100% provable to a jury that George lied repeatedly to investigators about all his actions prior to exiting his car. Why should anyone believe a word he says about what happened next?

    Thanks again S.Jay for transcribing that interview. I’d missed it somehow before. Of all the news in the last month, I’m thinking this is the most important thing I’ve learned about the case, hands down.

    • That’s how I perceived this from Serino’s 3rd part of interviewing GZ on Feb. 29. Serino and Singleton are playing back the NEN tape:

      (plays tape 1:34 to 1:50)
      Serino: What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
      Zimmerman: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
      Serino: So you’re…
      Singleton: OK, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
      Zimmerman: No.
      Serino: So you’re ahead of him?
      Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.
      Serino: OK, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were you were behind him?
      Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

      • i admit i haven’t listened to all of the interviews (as i have explained previously it’s impossible with 2 kids under 4 ), but this sounds pretty significant. Without hearing it in context that line from Serino “ok, so yu walked to your car, then walked along this path and youwere behind him? Yes Sir. WTF? Is he saying when he was returning to his car after accidently going in the same direction as the “suspect” he was all of a sudden behind Trayvon? Contradicting what he said about Trayvon coming up behind him? I’m confuzzled?@!

        • No the pronouns are messed up in the heat of the questioning. The detectives may have meant when Trayvon walked by GZs car (supposedly) the first time ( near the clubhouse.).

          I can cite chapter and verse now of the whole sequence of how GZ invented his false narrative, and the third/final questioning session is indeed where his whole house of cards falls down, but at the moment I’m on a mobile device…

          GZ has a pattern to his lies: when in doubt, leave it out. He’s omitted for certain the exact circumstances of TMs walk from the mail kiosk to his eventual run into the cut thru sidewalk completely BECAUSE he is the cause of the teen’s panic – he chased the youth with his car in an apparently menacing slo-mo fashion down TTL.

          This scenario lines up precicely with the actions and sounds on the NEN call. GZs alternate account(s) are impossible and self contradicting, and when he is finally played the NEN call recording he emphatically and repeatedly insists he is “at the clubhouse” when he was, indeed “at the clubhouse” only not in the front parking lot, but instead parked at the first curve on TTL opposite the mail kiosk, a spot he himself drew on a map Singleton presented him the previous day. He marked the spot as he told his false narrative in stages but quickly amended it by crossing it out a he got to the next part if his tale and realized it wasn’t going to fit. Immediately after moving the placement he tells the “doubled back/ circled the car/ hand in waistband” story, obviously an exculpatory and false version of the true events. Note also GZ leaves out the running away in all his accounts and only speaks of it when first prompted. When in doubt he leaves it out.

          (just like the movements south of the T Atr left out of every account until he’s confronted with the physical space in the walk – thru “re-emactment”).

          • @willisnewton –

            Agreed! Zimmerman leaves it out in order to think of some new dimension to add to cover the bases he hadn’t pre-thunk. Running becomes skipping after Serino questioned him and pushed him on “he’s running to get away from you” (or something like that). Remember Zimmerman responded “I don’t know” to the question from Serino prior to that which was “what kind of run was it”. When Zimmerman said he didn’t know, Serino pressed the issue and said this is kind of important, yadda, yadda, and this ain’t no stolen bicycle investigation, dude!

            • When in doubt George leaves it out.

              He never volunteered that trayvon ran away, and only spoke of it when prompted. Were it not for what he said on the NEN call recording, the SPD would never known Trayvon ran away. GZ told dispatch “sh8t, he’s running” and “he ran” but for whatever reason felt he could leave this out later when he spoke to SPD investigators. Either he forgot he said it or else he hoped the NEN calls were not recorded. All we know for sure is that he lied repeatedly in trying to give the impression that TM didn’t run away from his MOVING car on TTL.

          • He is a terrible liar. He also has a pattern where he switches places with his opponent.
            His lies all seem to have a purpose. I think the bullshit story about him trying to detain Trayvon after the shot, was created to explain away the fact, Selma saw him on top of Trayvon right after the shot.
            What do you think about the line that he went for his right pocket to get his phone to call 911? That one is just beyond rediculous. So Trayvon said ” what is your fucking problem” and GZ replies ” I don’t have a problem” while getting his phone to call 911.
            You walk away and then you call 911.
            I think he may have reached for his gun and told this story in case anybody saw him doing that.

            • This “I don’t have a problem” sounds suspiciously like what he WISHED he had said as he drew his gun. We don’t know what really happened, but in a wannabe cop fantasy, I’m sure someone like GZ would love to have a Dirty Harry-worthy tagline to utter as he unholstered his weapon.

              What we do know is that Dee Dee describes the exchange differently, and residents SEEM to have heard an exchange of words that went longer than what GZ describes. I’d love to hear the residents asked directly if whats your problem/i dont have a problem/now you do or whatever GZ claims is how short the exchange they heard was. I’m guessing they heard an exchange that was longer than that.

              Here’s another wild speculation: what if the “white T shirt” spotted was the white DOG belonging to Austin Brown, who lost it’s leash momentarily?

              There is so much we will never know, and so many things that are possible. Yet we know what GZ claims, and we know much of what he claims is NOT possible. That is what really counts, IMO.

              Again, glad to see you posting here, Amsterdam. Your input is valued by me!

            • @Willisnewton,
              Thanks, always appreciate your input.
              In the first interview with w11, when Singleton starts asking some questions, w11 says the initial exchange sounded like “what are you doing”. She thinks the went back and forth about 3 times. Pretty much backs up Deedee’s statement.

      • GZ also told a version where he “pulled adjacent to the clubhouse” that may be referring to this moment in time and/or part of his false narrative. It’s more like a fruedian slip or something, and I’ve not figured it out completely – he does this in the “voice stress analysis” session I think. This video is long and not fully transcribed at justicequest site.

        Suffice to say, IMO he has serious issues regarding this portion of the evening and his stories don’t align well. However, if you start with a foundation of his NEN call recording and the idea that TM waited at the mailboxes, and then listen to GZ’s statements in order, IMO a clear picture emerges of not only what really happened, but how and why GZ let himself get caught up in his lies. His basic goal is to omit the actions surrounding his and TM’s move from the clubhouse are to the cut thru – in his very first interview with Singleon he skips that part completely in a rush to get to the part where he grappled with the teen. It’s here that he first says the dispatcher told him to move to keep observing TM – but he tells it as his excuse to get out of the vehicle.

        Singleton is no fool, and after a pause comes back with a map that GZ marks on as they talk more, and quickly he’s caught having to explain how TM got past him if indeed he ever parked at the clubhouse parking lot. It’s here that GZ has to “double down” on his lie and so he switches his claim about being instructed to move in order to observe the teen to a different action – his leaving the clubhouse after TM supposedly passes his car.

        It’s also here in the second interview that GZ marks the spot on the map that resolves contradiction and explains inconsistencies and aligns the actions of the NEN call and matches what Dee Dee says, and also seems to match what tchoupi says is going on in the clubhouse pool videos, too regarding a u turn on TTL. This position is at the first bend on TTL, and I’m utterly convinced this is what really happened. But after making this mark, GZ continues his story and quickly realizes he must cross this position out and substitute the “final” parking space instead, the one that is consistent with his “TM doubled back/ hand in waistband/ circled my car” false narrative that cannot be reconciled with his own statements or the NEN call.. It’s just after crossing out this logical position that he tells the “circled my car” tale for the first time. Like a schoolboy, he lies when it’s convenient and forgets that he isn’t being consistent from one telling to the next.

        Either Dee Dee, having no knowledge of the geography or it’s importance to this aspect to the case, and without access to GZ’s statements to SPD has invented her story (which supports the proof that GZ is lying) or else GZ is lying to cover up what he did. Of course the CT is that Dee Dee was “coached” but it’s funny how much more damage she could do elsewhere if she had chosen to perjure herself…

        In other words, GZ is caught dead-to-rights lying to investigators and the state can prove it using only two things from Dee Dee – that TM waited by the mail kiosk and that he told Dee Dee that the creepy guy followed him in his car. One destroys GZ’s credibility and the other speaks to “depraved mind.”


        • I think Tchoupi is right about the the truck slowly driving past the mail area and stopping at the first bend on TTL. I don’t think the car made a u turn, but that a second car is driving west on TTL while Zimmerman is following Trayvon east.
          A couple of reasons.
          The clubhouse videos had timestamps included. They didn’t make any sense because they began at 6:30 pm. Those timestamps made a lot of sense after the second evidence dump which said the clock on the video was 18 min slow. That means they begin at 6:48 pm and not at 6:46.
          That places the rearlights pulling away from the poolarea on the eastpool video going east on TTL, very close to the the time where I think Zimmerman started following Trayvon in his car.
          If you start the video at 6:48 pm, the rearlights can be seen between 7:10:50 and 7:11:09. Trayvon starts running at 7:11:40. You can see the lights of a car going west on ttl at 7:11:32.
          On the eastpoolhall video you can see a car passing the mailarea going towards the north gate at 7:11:42. The lights that Tchoupi says are the headlights of the car making a uturn can be seen in the eastpoolhall video at 7:10:33. That places those lights before the car makes a uturn. Those lights can’t be the headlights of the car that drove slowly past the mailarea.
          Zimmerman either followed Trayvon back towards the North gate on RVC or he followed him east on TTL and another car drove west and north on TTL at the same time Zimmerman was driving east.

    • My concern about the existence of a new judge is that all decisions about motions regarding gag orders can be revisited now. Judge Lester seemed to be handling the Sunshine laws well enough but now both sides can once again try to force the media out of the equation when it comes to discovery. The SAO is motivated to keep the discovery materials out of the public eye because it helps shield thier trial strategy for longer I think, and the defense has shown they prefer for GZs false narrative to be the only version of events in circulation.

      Let’s hope the new judge lets old motions stand in regards to the public’s right to discovery. I hate to say it but I dont trust the prosecution fully. I think they are politically motivated to gain a convictiion, yes but I’m not sure they care to go about it in the manner I’d like them to- openly and with no stone unturned.

  25. I’ve uploaded some more witness transcriptions:

    Included are composite narratives for witnesses 1, 2, and 3. You might also notice the beginnings of the whole case spreadsheet. I’m way behind on it. That’s where the composites will be able to be compared. Eventually, when it is complete, you might want to download it so you can move the columns around to see any two or more witnesses together. My guess is that we’ll be able to work out all the timing and see the panoramic view by doing that.

    I’m trying to keep my Trayvon family bias out of this as much as possible. It doesn’t really matter what I think. These are tools for you to use to work on the case in depth.

  26. For those of you who can’t stomach visits to the nuthouse, just FYI, they’ve been posting excerpts from the unedited non-final version of MO’s book. Beyond the events on the night of the shooting, everything else is basically the “saga of GZ’s plight” as he was hiding from the media and others looking to hunt him down. This latest story just tells us how clueless these people are. MO recounts how one day (Mar 23) when GZ was getting ready to leave town, he spotted 2 cars with several black people blocking his driveway. GZ went running back in the house yelling for Shellie to get her gun ready in case they break down the door. MO went to look and recognized them as friends of the neighbor.

    If you’ll remember, I told you guys these excerpts are being provided by somebody in the GZ camp who got an early copy of the book and is now unhappy with what’s in it. This anonymous poster refutes the account above by saying that there was only 1 car, not 2, and it never blocked the driveway. There was also only one black man driving it and he was reading a piece of paper probably looking at the address.

    MO meant for this story to tell how fearful GZ got, but it makes him look like more of a racist paranoid nut than before. Of course, let us think of how fearful GZ made all of the young black boys in the country of just walking to the store……

    • These supposed extracts also claim GZ threw up during the final interview session, the one where he is played the NEN call recording. I didn’t hear audio of him vomiting, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. He’s caught in many lies during this session and is obviously under great duress.

      I’m taking these book excerpts with a grain of salt at the moment, but as more and more are leaked I have to admit they are intriguing, and to see the treepers fall upon themselves is always somewhat entertaining. One possible source of the leak is an O’mara “intern” who is tasked with reading blogs and making reports to the defense team. O’Mara was sent a copy of an early incomplete draft according to the leaker but of course that’s not possible to confirm.

      The prose has an obvious ghost writer flavor to it, and I don’t think the ghost writer knows what details are significant and what details are not. Osterman himself comes off as not the sharpest stick in the bunch, either.


    • WSI, does this person contest the part about GZ running into the house yelling for his wife to get her gun?

      • Exactly! The blacks are coming, the blacks are coming… Get yer gun, honey. LOL

        What a bunch of fearful nuts!!

        • Whether it was one black person or a group of black people, it makes GZ appear to be a paranoid, racist nut; however, at least if it was a large group of people blocking the driveway and leering at the house that would appear more menacing than one person in a car near the house. Was he not worried about any of the white people in front of the house or driving by the house?

          The “that’s racist” kid would be saying “THAT’S RACIST!” right about now. LOL.

      • Even the real (former) black panthers condemned the actions of the tiny group that called itself the “new black pAnther party” and most assume these fools are paid agent provocateurs since almost everything they do blows up in their face. Yes, they printed sone Wanted posters but afaik there has yet to be a credible threat of violence against the Zimmerman clan that has been recorded or turned in to investigators. MOM is trying to get mileage and sympathy for GZ with these supposed threats but in truth the best he’s been able to substantiate to police is a second hand report of a call his secretary recieved at their office but did not record.

        I’m willing to admit I could be wrong but I’ve seen nothing “real” as far as proof of threats against the GZ family. Instead, over two million people pushed peacefully for justice, and thousands rallied peaceably in cities across America, and the parents of the slain unarmed teen spoke continually for calm, peace and justice.

        • You can contrast that with this quote from the book. It’s MO trying to convince GZ not to leave their house and go out of state ***** “I said, “No, George, you can’t do this. I am prepared to handle any threat, even men with guns. I’m ready for them.” ” ***** GZ had a lot of help with his paranoia.

          • If you have never seen the classic 1930s screwball comedy HIS GIRL FRIDAY, do yourself a favor and rent the DVD sometime. There is a great parody of how the media and the police and even the criminals themselves conspire to make hay for the purposes of selling papers, getting re-elected and in general running roughshod over the populace bursting with their own ruthless self-interest disguised as civic-minded good spirit.

            I’m not saying the GZ case resembles this satire, but it does contain a classic scene where a reporter posits a theory of “production for use,” as a motive for a shooting. In other words as long as they keep making handguns, people are going to want to shoot them off at each other. That seems to be the mentality that GZ and Osterman shared. A gun is a tool, and a handgun is a tool made to kill someone. Anyone.

            There’s an old quote variously attributed but it goes something like this, “to a kid with a hammer in his hand, the whole world starts looking like a nail pretty soon.”

      • @qetno, the anonymous poster said that the characterization of GZ running into the house to get a gun was false. In refuting that part of the book, he said GZ “went back into house and was talking about the decision whether to call the FDLE contact that he was given, or whether to just leave quickly.”

        The “facts” in this book can’t be relied on, but it does tell us more about the mindset of MO, the great mentor. GZ got friggin’ scared seeing a black man in a car? Was he also on the phone and slow crawling up behind his butt? NO? Oh, just parked looking at a piece of paper in broad daylight.

        BTW, according to the book, GZ’s dog is named Oso. Crazy OG lady has also mentioned that her stepdaughter’s rottie died. So if MO/SO had a rottweiler, and GZ got one too and named it Oso, what does that tell you? GZ wanted to be everything MO is, a cop with a “manly” dog and a gun. If MO had nothing to do with the shooting itself, he sure contributed a lot to the lead-up. After the burglaries, any other friend would have just said, here’s some money buddy, break your lease and move to another complex. Instead, it’s “here’s a dog and a gun, go do some city huntin’ ”

        The drama as it has unfolded suggests that after GZ left their house, he had less and less contact with MO/SO (i.e., MO was probably not providing security). GZ went along with the book thinking that it was just going to be about how they had nice dinner parties together or went shooting on the range. But then it was given to O’Mara, and somebody realized, hey, MO’s talking about x, y and z, which is either all wrong or true, either way looks really bad for us. But then it was too late, it had gone to the editor/publisher. This last posting especially details things that only GZ himself (or Shellie) could deny because no one else was there. Therefore, this anonymous poster has to be someone in GZ’s family sending the email to the nuthouse to try to do damage control. So sad (insert fake crocodile tears) maybe GZ and MO are no longer BFFs?

        • I’m sorry, but one black or two blacks or even 3-4 in a car parked out front being viewed as a threat for doing nothing more than reading a piece of paper is a sign of the fear of a ignorant, fearful racists. Why call FDLE or leave hurriedly?

          If I’m reading what you’re sharing correctly, both the author and Zimmerman’s defenders are racists and don’t know it. I have said all along that Zimmerman was probably surprised to find that he holds racists views and probably didn’t know it due to the company he sought and kept. And now we have a statement from Zimmerman’s female cousin (the one he molested) that she believes Zimmerman’s family holds racist views.

          • @CSFC, you’re right, some of them are in denial. And then there’s Gladys who was honest to outright say that she is racist, according to witness 9. Of course, the negative gut reaction to black people is ingrained in GZ, his family and supporters. What the turmoil over at the nuthouse right now is something like: OMG, how could MO say that? Now, they’re gonna really think GZ’s racist. As if we didn’t know.

            MO’s version is dramatic, worthy of a bad fiction. The other version, while less dramatic, is true to GZ’s life, caught in his groundhog day where he, cool as a cucumber, keeps having to call the police, yet again, on a black man (reference: video parody of GZ repeatedly calling 911, as Gorge Limmerman). The man will never learn. Stupid only gets stupider.

            • Oh My God. I hope all of this actually is in the book. The prosecution would have a field day. Get your gun shellie….a black man in a car….he either stole it or he is a murdering theif…..but i don’t racially profile.

            • @ Jo, while most other things I’ve read on the book aren’t of consequence to the case IMHO. However, this story about GZ reacting to a black man in a car again will be something the prosecution can absolutely use to characterize GZ’s profiling behavior, since it comes straight from his best friend.

              In the stories we’ve heard about the burglaries, did any of them involve a gun? No. Geez, again, I ask, why can they order him not to drink alcohol, but they can’t order him NOT to carry another gun? This man is trigger happy. If he does hurt someone again due to his paranoia, I’m blaming the state and NRA backers. GZ is not a hunter living in the backwoods of Alaska needing to shoot animals for his food or a farmer protecting his livestock. He did not have then and does not have now any business carrying a gun.

            • WSI……its a bit rich isnt it….gz, a grown man, feels threatened by someone sitting in their car….but in his hannerty interview gz said he could not understand why trayvon, a teenager on foot being watched and slowly followed by a man in a car, and chased on foot, would possibly feel threatened. What a load of bullshit. that man makes me angry…!!!!

  27. To those of you who follow Leatherman’s blog. I don’t post over there but have been reading here and there. In his latest post on crime scene investigations. He mentions briefly how he learned about DNA testing, but then gives a link to a guide for law enforcement in gathering eyewitness evidence, not on gathering forensic samples. What was the point of the post? Maybe he was too busy watching the DNC and haphazardly threw it together. I think he cheated you guys on that one.

    • Leatherman’s blog has a different approach than this one. He likes to “hold forth” and he’s good enough at it to deserve the traffic he generates, but it has led to attracting some trolls that he hasn’t taken the time to root out as a moderator. All that effort takes time.

      TalkLeft, for instance, has a hypervigilant moderator and produces slightly less “articles” but when you get down to it each site that is comprised of court followers and evidence-sifters such as this one has a core group of 10-30 regulars and an unknown number of lurkers.

      Justice Quest has a slightly younger demographic I’d guess, given the number of emoticons they post and the lingo they use. But again, the same basic number of regular posters.

      Then you have the “semi-lone wolves” like DiWataman or thcoupi or whomever who maintain a blog or flickr site (like myself) where what they post is mostly the result of their own investigative and interpretive works. These are not really “community” sites as much as they are places to check out pics, videos and theories and allow some feedback specific to the postings.

      Leatherman’s site, much like this one in a way is just an open forum with blog headings that may or may not generate much discussion on topic, but exist as a running “open bar” where we all jabber with one another to pass the time and share links and info.

      What am I missing? Those are the ones I check. Oh yeah, the Conservative Treehouse of course but I don’t want to bother trying to characterize what goes on over there. Sadly, it is however somewhat of an epicenter of activity given that the Ostermans and Zimmermans and O’mara himself all seem to respond there through various means a tone time or another. I usually wait for someone here to mention what’s happening over there – the level of open hatred and intolerance there is too much to handle for me, personally.

      Daily Kos posts fro time to time a diary by Meteor Blades that generates a lot of traffic, but not from those who have an interest in the investigative, bloggers-sift-thru-document dump type ways that this site sometimes can generate.

      There are others I’m missing but these are the big one’s I’d say.

      GZLegal is an experiment in free-fall, I’d say. It hasn’t had the desired effect the defense hoped, and the facebook page for GZ was shut down completely. The donation sites are not bringing in much cash, I’d guess and are more or less superfluous at this point. GZ’s fan base has already been tapped, I’d say and he’s not going to attract new ones until and if a trial happens. He may get a little bump in donations then, but in the meantime I’d say he’s stuck with what he was able to raise initially. This is a slow time for the case, in spite of the fact that the defense can’t keep a lid on it’s “friends and family” and they keep generating news by ‘eff-ing up all over the place. I more or less expected that, given the caliber of humanity we are dealing with here.

      For all the complaining by treepers about the “scheme team” and legal action and advice from the family of the deceased, they don’t have much of an internet presence. They’ve mostly worked thru cable TV news outlets and to their credit stay off the internet to maintain a “high road” approach. True, they had a conduit thru Al Sharpton’s presence on MSNBC that they exploited for all it was worth but I hardly blame them one bit. They went from a dead son and no arrest to a DOJ and SAO investigation by any means necessary and I don’t fault them one iota for doing so. What parent wouldn’t seek justice? I’m afraid if I were in their shoes I wouldn’t show one tenth of the restraint they have shown. If you lose a wife you are a widower. Lose your parents and they call you an orphan. Lose a child, and there isn’t even a WORD for it, the tragedy strikes so deep.

      The rest of the online activity is comparable to hobbyist activity in many ways, I’m afraid, unless the SAO cares to use what is generated by bloggers in a court room, which remains to be seen. It’s rumored that the defense puts stock in what is written online, but on the surface so far it seems to be centered on fund-raising alone, with actual legal strategy still being formulated by old fashioned seat of the pants lawyering, which is probably wise.

      It does seem to be a distraction for the defendant himself to angst over what is posted about him, but again remains to be seen if it will have a material effect on the case itself.

      All in all, it’s been an interesting sociological experience. The case itself is of course a human tragedy but the overall crowd response is another topic all together. 2.2 million signed an online petition and thousands protested peacefully to bring sunshine and justice into the case.

      That initial “viral” crowd response alone is the biggest story so far. We will always have more George Zimmeman’s, sadly but what remains to be seen is if this “political movement” will lead to less SYG laws or less handguns or less vigilante shootings.

      • @willisnewton –

        SYG was dropped by O’Mara with a bogus excuse for a reason and that reason is 90% political, imo.

        • Interesting theory, CSFC. Difficult to prove, however. It is true that people who favor the SYG laws are backing away on this one, since it seems obvious to most that GZ shot an unarmed teen for no good reason.

          I tend to think that MO’M is genuine in his conviction (pun intended, ha ha) to get GZ off on the charges he faces but his options are quite limited. I think he;s working towards a “hail mary” strategy that claims that all that really matters is the last few seconds before GZ pulled the trigger since he’s going to be defending a man with almost zero credibility about the events preceding the shot.

          But yeah, plenty of politics are surrounding this case. Most notably, the politics of the Sanford city council and the disposition of the police chief and his job, and also the politic surrounding Norm Wolfinger’s office, and his quiet decision not to run for re-election.

          But the greater issues are indeed gun control and these SYG laws. I’m not sure which way the wind is blowing, but I wish the original outrage over this case had gelled into a stronger more committed movement to examine and DO SOMETHING about this nation’s love affair with handguns.

    • @WSI –

      I thought the point of his post was that he’s learned through experience that there’s more to winning a case than the DNA evidence. His post today drives that point further home. At least that’s my take.

      • @CSFC, that post today was better, at least he actually talked about forensic evidence. I was just wondering why he posted yesterday a link about gathering eyewitness accounts rather than forensic evidence. That’s all. But now I have another bone to pick. I don’t think he used the phrase “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” correctly in the following excerpt from today’s post.

        “A good prosecutor would have spotted this problem and responded with a statement like this:
        Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If there were no blood on the sidewalk or in the grass beside it, the use of luminol would not have produced a visible result.”

        It would NOT be the prosecutor that would not be arguing “Absence of visible blood on sidewalk is not evidence of absence of head bashing”. That’s more like what a treeper would say to us, if we were to say, “See? Didn’t see blood on the sidewalk, so no head bashing.”

        Remember our discussion on DNA and TM’s hands? I have tried to use that phrase to refute people’s assertion that the lack of DNA evidence found on TM’s hands meant that he was not beating GZ. While I don’t believe TM was beating GZ ferociously, they were engaged in an altercation and I can’t rule out that any of GZ’s injuries were caused by TM in his OWN self-defense. That said, I still have to say “Absence of DNA is not evidence of absence of punching.” It is all of the other evidence, minor lacerations, no bruising, etc that says GZ didn’t get a beating like he claimed.

        OK done nit picking about Leatherman. See why I don’t post over there?

        • I see what you’re saying, but I take what Leatherman is saying to mean that it is the State’s job (including the police) to properly gather, store, test and record evidence. He’s 100% correct on that.

          Unlike the Treepers, though, Leatherman is putting forth that even if everything wasn’t gathered, stored, tested and recorded properly, there’s no doubt that Zimmerman’s blood flow is visible on the pictures and it’s clearly flowing the wrong way — wouldn’t be on the ground no way.

          • @I agree with the gist of that post. Just nitpicking at his use of language to explain logic.

  28. At the risk of making ya’ll’s blood boil, take a deep breath before reading this one. Another claim by MO from the book:
    “George Zimmerman’s gun was legal, he had a legal license and also a license to conceal it. Many have turned the shooting of Trayvon Martin into a debate on gun laws. Most are convinced the presence of George’s firearm resulted in the death of Trayvon. How can anyone say that? George felt he was going to be suffocated to death as Trayvon’s hands covered his nose and mouth. Death by Trayvon’s hands or George’s gun; tragic anyway you look at it.”

    While parts of the book were specifically being red flagged by this anonymous poster (which the treepers now are also speculating as I had earlier mentioned may be “Ken”, aka money savvy brother in law), this excerpt was NOT highlighted. So the gun was not a factor according to MO? Hmmmm, so GZ was only afraid of being suffocated to death by a 17-year-old with no history of violence or motive to kill. Is MO trying to absolve his own guilt for helping GZ buy a gun in the first place? As willisnewton mentioned earlier, take this book with a grain of salt, but it is amusing to see the treepers “self-imploding” over this issue. Crazy OG lady has gone into cyber hiding and refusing to comment anymore on this after being attacked by others at the site.

    But regarding the quote above. No, the presence of rocks on the ground, a high heeled shoe, a belt, etc, any number of things in this world that can be used as a weapon does not kill people. People kill people. The presence of George’s gun didn’t kill TM. GEORGE killed TM. Period.

    • This is boilerplate gun nut stuff, doesn’t surprise me. We’re still looking for the “tipping point” in the USA to wake up about the flood of handguns that plague our streets and living rooms (so many people shoot their kid brother by accident).

      But with hard work and some deep soul-searching maybe this tragic case will add to the straws it is going to take to break the camel’s back.

      I’d almost endorse a rocket-launcher exchange program for handguns, they are so bad. Just get ’em off the streets and let people have bazookas and stinger missiles instead. Then maybe they would see it for what it is – a killing machine that a civil society has little practical use for.

      People want to shoot bambi? Great… just don’t shoot me is all I ask. I’m gong to the store for some skittles now. Alert my security team.

        Thanks for all the commentary WillisNewton. Watch this clip of Dr. Phil on CBS, skip to 1:45 and watch til about 5:00. Gives his take on the case and shows a bit more of the interview with MO. Dr. Phil mentions something about it becoming “open season” for young black men if the case becomes swept under the rug. I guess the Ostermans are really regretting doing this now. Alicia Martin, TM’s step mother was also on the show. She was just shown in this clip in tears listening to MO say that definitely TM would have killed GZ had he not had a gun.

        • What was TM gonna kill him with? Was he gonna give him diabetes with his Skittles and Arizona Watermelon? There’s no proof how he got the injuries or to the extent of his injuries, but I suppose we’re just supposed to take his word. No need to ask questions. Who cares that there’s a lot pointing against his story being the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I suppose we should just let him go.

          NOT. What a bunch of dolts.

          OFF TOPIC:
          Drew Peterson CONVICTED!

          • Woot! With spouses like Drew Peterson bandying about, it’s a wonder marriage hasn’t yet been banned.

        • “Gives his take on the case and shows a bit more of the interview with MO. Dr. Phil mentions something about it becoming “open season” for young black men if the case becomes swept under the rug.”

          The commentary in the CBS clip doesn’t sound like Dr. Phil is in the Zimmerman camp. Wonder how the show will end. Was it on already?

          • It airs September 10. As much as I can’t stand the show, I will definitely DVR and watch.

          • @CSFC, no the show hasn’t aired. It’s supposed to be on Sept 10. Dr. Phil doesn’t seem like he’s in the GZ camp, which is the beauty of this whole thing. Haven’t you ever wondered why people come onto TV shows at all? They’re lured by the promise from producers of “Here’s your chance to tell your story to the world!!!” And then they get there and get ripped apart by the host for ratings. What were the Osterman’s thinking? That he was really a “Dr.” and would just say, OK sit back on the couch and just tell us how you feel?

        • @CSFC, thanks! Love how Dr. Phil says “It’s a Neighborhood Watch, not a Neighborhood Hunt” and he emphasizes “Hunt” by gestering finger quotes.

          By the way, in that same link CSFC provided above is the poll Dr. Phil’s show is conducting. It’s currently at:
          1) Do you believe George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense?
          43% no 57% yes
          2) George is currently charged with second-degree murder. Do you believe he should be convicted? 56% No; 44% Yes

          When the poll first came out, the numbers were more like 75% No to the self-defense claim, and 60% yes to conviction of 2nd degree murder.

          The treepers then encouraged all their devotees to go vote. That’s why the numbers are skewed like they are now since most of the news about this show has been coming from the nuthouse, so most of the respondents probably came from there.

          All of you guys feel free to go vote to bring the numbers back where they should be. You don’t have to enter personal information to vote.

  29. Interesting piece today on NPR about phone companies recording the movements of our cell phones:

    “Your cellphone is a tracking device collecting a lot more information about you than you may think, says ProPublica investigative reporter Peter Maass.

    “They are collecting where we are — not just at one particular moment in the day, but at virtually every moment of the day,” Maass tells Fresh Air’s Dave Davies.

    And they keep it indefinitely. Says law enforcement can easily get this location data for murder investigations. So, the paths of GZ and Trayvon may yet be known. Corey may have found out info on Taaffee’s whereabouts that night, too. The disconnect time for Trayvon and DeeDee will tell us when and where the loud argument started and the moving scuffle began. If it’s around 7:15:00 I think it is the same as in w11’s and w20’s account.

    DeeDee called him back 2 or 3 times and texted him. These times will further back it up.

    • @Jay –

      I actually think it start prior to reaching W11’s and W20’s back yard. I’m thinking it would have had to have already escalated somewhat by the time W11/W20 first tuned in.

      • I agree. Came around the north side of their building possibly. Maybe even around their whole building. Wonder if we’ll ever get witnesses from that area. I don’t think the fast walking chase came north on the center sidewalk. Too many people back there who did not see that. John w6 virtually rules that out. I think w2 glanced down at Austin going that way much later. She says her glance was only 15 seconds before the gun went off.

        So, GZ’s story about Trayvon attacking him from the south a minute and a half before w2’s glance is hogwash. That never made sense because if Trayvon had rung GZ’s clock that way, GZ would have fallen and stumbled north. What I understand from DeeDee now is that GZ was fast walking, following Trayvon moving east along the north edge of w11’s townhome when Trayvon gets fed up and turns around asking “Why you following me for?”

        Mary w5 seems to have done a survey of the neighborhood rumor mill during the first week. She had some influence with it in shaping public opinion through the media early on. Here’s what she speculated about the fight she didn’t see, hadn’t heard, and actually knew nothing about until talking to neighbors:

        “And the fight that happened started way down the sidewalk, because the person on the very end of this block is the one who called the police originally because the fight broke out. Now the kid got shot way down here, five doors down.
        But once I heard that somebody at the end of the townhouse, you know, townhouses are connected. So, at the end… the very, very end is where the fight started. I’m talking about the townhome… at the opposite end of that walkway where the ‘T’ is. That’s where the fight started. Where the police walked from.
        Okay, so, this is the sidewalk. And then the sidewalk goes, you know, both ways. So, there’s townhomes all along here. And then there’s townhomes all along here. And then our front door is like the fourth one over, I think. So, this is where we walked out. This is our porch. The kid was lying here. From what I’m told, this is the people who called 911 first. This is where the fight originated. And we only heard one gunshot, one time going off. I’m told there was two. I have no idea.
        Neighbors are telling me that they heard two shots. It’s probably rumors.
        So, I’m assuming maybe the kid was already shot once and was crying and trying to get home. Or, I don’t know.
        I think he has a temper and I think he got the crap beat out of him. He thought he could take this little 17 year old. And I think maybe he did in self-defense maybe shoot him once. But what I’m being told there was two guns… two fires… two guns that were shot.
        But, if 911 is called when they are down here… I think the kid got shot there and I think he was trying to get home. Because, where the dad was was down here in this townhouse.
        So, I think the kid was running for help. That’s my opinion. I mean, my opinion’s probably not worth much, but…”

        • I think Zimmerman started following Trayvon east on TTL at 1:43 in the nen call or
          7:11:17 pm. You can hear him moving in his seat right before that and then you can hear the gear. At 7:11:40 Zimmerman says he is running. That means Trayvon was walking east for about 23 sec. That would’ve taken past the bend where TTL turns south. Deedee said Trayvon was out of breath when Zimmerman caught up with him 4 min later. The rest of her sequence and all the other evidence doesn’t support a south north chase.
          This is the sequence as I understand it from Deedee.
          Trayvon started walking because this dude was watching him. She then says Zimmerman starts following him. That is when she says his voice changed and he sounded scared. While Trayvon was walking the call disconnected. When she called back he was running, she could here the wind. Trayvon tells her he thought he lost the guy. She tells him run to your dad’s house, but he tells her he is going around the back of the houses because it is easier. Trayvon starts walking back and she urges him to keep running, but he says he will walk fast and he is close to home. But Deedee thinks he is too tired to run. While he is walking in the direction of his home again, he notices Zimmerman is following him again and he is getting closer. That would indicate that Zimmerman was moving faster than Trayvon and explain why he was out of breath as reported by Deedee.

          Deedee’s statement, the physical evidence, the witness statements, the four minute gap between the time Trayvon ran and the beginning of the altercation and the almost 2 minute gap between the end of the nen call and the beginning of the altercation, all seem to not support Trayvon running south. That would leave him running east or north.
          I think Trayvon running north taking one of the gaps between the houses is the most likely scenario, because Zimmerman seemed at a total loss about where Trayvon could be. If Trayvon ran east towards RVC, Zimmerman would have had a visual of Trayvon. So I think Trayvon ran north, crossed RVC, ran between the houses on the other side of RVC, and started moving around the back of those houses where they border Oregan av. I think Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was heading towards the back entrance because “they always do”. He may have followed him north, didn’t see Trayvon and started running east on RVC towards the corner, or he may have taken the cut-through on TTL going east on RVC, thinking he would cut of Trayvon going towards the back entrance. Either way, I think Zimmerman ended up on the north east corner of RVC, because from there he would be able to see both entrances.
          Zimmerman may have seen Trayvon crossing RVC going back towards the T after Trayvon thought he lost GZ. GZ was probably running towards Trayvon, because according to Deedee he was gaining on Trayvon.
          I think GZ caught up with Trayvon near the T. I think the only options left for Trayvon, were to continue down this very dark path with this bat shit crazy guy following him, or to turn around and face the guy at a place where there was at least some light.

      • W11 describes the beginning the same as Deedee. Loud verbal exchange sounding like “what are you doing”.

    • @ Jay, do you or anyone else know how accurate the tracking technology is currently based on cell phones? If there’s a 200 yard radius than it wouldn’t really help us any.

      • I’m no expert in that field, but I would think the drops of DeeDee’s calls could turn up some significant info.

      • Here’s hoping. I think standard GPS sees a motor vehicle within about 3 meters. That’s how those voices in the device know to tell you to turn left in 300 feet like they do. Government vehicle positions are monitored and can be tracked down if stolen. I wonder for cell phones, too. And how frequently is the checking done? The article said it varies for the different phone companies. I heard today there is a central clearing house in the U.S. with all this key press information.

        • @Jay, I’ve read GPS chips are installed in all new smartphones now. Do they come with GPS software preinstalled, and does it require user activation or is it activated in default mode? I don’t have one, so I wouldn’t know.

  30. i just saw a part of the MO book where he is talking about some white supremist house he had to go to when he was Deputy Sherriff which lead nicely into his complaint of New Black Panther Party and how quickly they judged poor george before they knew any of the facts blah blah blah. I certainly don’t condone any threats from anyone but i am completely and utterley sick of team george complaining that has been judged hashly and considered a criminal when that is exactly what he did to poor Trayvon. It was GZ’s premature evaluation of an innocent kid that got him in this mess and if anyone is guilty of rushing to judgement it is him. GZ was judge and executioner.

    • Never mind, I just got my answer. O’Mara is subpoening (spelling?) all of TM’s school records, INCLUDING this middle school records. What’s he gonna find? That TM was running in the hallways or talking in class? Oh boy, that’s a real making of a trouble maker there. He says those records will not become public though as they are protected.

      • O’Mara also says “we will be issuing subpoenas for other items including potentially relevant data from social media platforms”. What “data” I wonder? @Tchoupi, you think he’ll want your analyses?

        • Sounds to me like the defense is fishing for TMs twitter account to be entered into evidence. Allegedly rhe teen had tweeter about drug use in his past, etc. I doubt this will make it into court but you never know.

          On another note the SPD “public information officer” had been re assigned to traffic duty by the acting new police chief and has gone public over the reasons why: the new chief blames him for how poorly them chief Bill Lee handled the Trayvon Martin killing. A letter castigating the press officer was leaked by the guy to local television. More dirt inside SPD is coming to light. Apparently despite sunshine laws on the books the chief had ordered the letter not to be made public.

          Whatever this is truly about, it seems like possibly continuing struggles between the factions on the city council who backed or booted Bill Lee are involved.

          It’s local politics In some regard but once again its a shame the DoJ didn’t make the SPD itself a major focus of it’s investigation because there’s been a lot more than meets the eye going on behind closed doors there, and little “sunshine” is getting in. The DoJ and the FBI all went back to DC a long time ago.

          Sorry no URL just now- I’m on a mobile device. Think it may be channel 35?

            • @willisnewton –

              I think SPD has a problem. I read elsewhere that this new interim chief was causing problems which forced him out of his previous jobs. Could be a hatchet job against him by those unhappy with his decisions to boot Serino and others. Could be he himself was booted because he’s NOT in the old boy network camp. IDK.

              Research needed on this one.

            • Hi Willis,
              Do you know if there has been an explanation why Bill Lee was at the crime scene that evening?

            • @ amsterdam

              I don’t know why – or if – Bill Lee was at the crime scene that evening. Where are you getting that from? I’ve heard that claim bandied about but have not read it myself anywhere. It’s not in the NYT story that seemed to delve as deeply as any investigative journalist has been able to do. I tend to believe you, but just haven’t seen any independent contemporaneous report to that effect. Is it anywhere in the discovery? Does Bill Lee admit as much to the press, anywhere?

              But one reason IF he was there would be that it’s a small town in some ways at a murder is a big deal in Sanford. But there was also some back-and-forth between Lee and some press outlets, the Grio, i think, who published claims that police chief Lee had met personally with Norm Wolfinger early on in the case as well. One of the first real “explosions” from Bill Lee was when he acted to give some non-denial denials about his interactions with Wolfinger. I could never fully make sense of all that.

              I’m just not as conversant on that area of the case as I wish I was, so don’t quote me on any of this. The story of Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger has not been told and both men are not cooperating with the press.

              Let’s start with what we DO know about Bill Lee – he acted in a manner inconsistent with what his lead investigator felt was happening in the case – Serino seems to have wanted to get the prosecutors to charge manslaughter, and we know now that he KNEW GZ was lying about several things concerning his movements that night, and seemingly felt the injuries were not consistent with the self defense tale as well. Yet somehow Bill Lee wanted to defend his department, which is understandable, but Lee seemingly over-reacted and made statements about how he was legally unable to arrest GZ. (see what I mean, there is more to all this than just that… I don’t have it all straight in my head.)

              I do know that Serino and Bill Lee gave a JOINT interview with a local paper that GZ’s defenders cite often, but my take on that is that Serino was “toeing the party line” in that instance since his boss was right there with him. Serino also may have still been playing “good cop” hoping to get GZ’s continued cooperation (and more inconsistent and contradictory statements out of him.)

              It’s going to take a real insider to untangle the whole story of Chris Serino and his motives, actions and methods. But my instinct is that he’s done a good job and had he known about Dee Dee, he would have wrapped up enough for a murder indictment just like Corey was able to.

            • @willisnewton
              His name is on the crime scene contamination log. Page 49 second dump.
              He is identified as chief Lee. He got there at 8:40 pm.
              I was trying to find the white male civilian standing next to the log officer as described in ofc. Santiago’s narrative. Joe Manola is identified, but no other civilians as far as I can see.
              In a follow up memo Santiago identifies the civilian as an Asian man.
              Robertson the log officer received a statement from a male witness, possible Asian.

          • @Willisnewton, fishing is right. We know TM smoked pot. So did Clinton and Obama. I think they turned out alright, and I don’t recall either of them were reported to viciously attack an innocent watchman for reaching for a cell phone.

            But social media as evidence is stupid, because unless TM tweeted he was going to go punch GZ in the nose, then what is really relevant? Kids brag all the time and may talk about getting high or wasted when they actually went out and shared a beer and a joint. I talk about getting drunk in the virtual world all the time but in fact I haven’t actually been really “drunk” since college. Point is, an online persona does not accurately reflect a person in real life.

            And if TM had been drugged up at the time, then it goes against any argument that he would have had the coordination and strength to rain down MMA style blows. But then no need to speculate because they already did a tox screen on him. And due to the winks and “it’s Ok boys, he’s with me” coming from Osterman, we don’t have a tox screen on GZ do we? Oh the fallout from this whole thing at SPD just gets messier huh? They keep finding scapegoats and demoting them down to road patrol.

            • Sanford is a relatively small place and the politics are local. Half the city council backed Bill Lee and half wanted him fired. the city manager was against him but is a non voting member of the council and the mayor cast rhe tie breaking vote twice- once to suspend him (with pay, supposedly pending a federal investigation – one that was not forthcoming) and then a second time to KEEP him on paid leave a the scrutiny died down somewhat over the Zimmerman affair.

              Terms were negotiated behind closed doors and eventually he left/ was fired by the city manager, but probably with a payoff of some sort as severance.

              The supposed DoJ investigation was never focused on the Sanford PD, but instead only on whether George Zimmerman was guilty of civil rights violations . I’m only giving my opinion here but it seems the threat of a full investigation was part of what motivated the republican governor of Florida to appoint a special prosecutor, and that implied threat was never carried out.

  31. Ya gotta know it’s a slow news period when I have to comment on this…..
    The Ostermans’ book (listed as Mark & Sondra Osterman as authors) is available for pre-order at Amazon to be released on Sept 18, well after the Dr. Phil show is going to air (FYI, Martin/Fulton and brother are in a separate show to air on Sept. 14, while the Ostermans are airing on Sept. 10). It’s a 188 page paperback for $15 (kinda steep!) I was kinda right about it being a self-published book. They used Tate Publishing & Enterprises, a Christian publisher that “operates on the vanity press model in which most authors pay for the publication of their books.” (Wikipedia). Meaning, you pay, they’ll publish anything.

    The 2-paragraph book description at Amazon starts like this “The sound of a single gun shot cut through the quiet, rainy evening and a lanky, black teen, Trayvon Martin, fell to the ground. The shooter was someone Mark and Sondra Osterman spoke with daily. He played Santa for their daughter, treated his wife with preciousness, often ate at their table, and shared their joys and sorrows……”

    Nauseous yet? Don’t worry guys, this is as far as I go. I can’t fork over money to get this book knowing it would fund GZ’s defense. Besides, I’m sure they’ll be copies of it all over the internet anyway….

      • Maybe Trayvon didn’t fall. He might have already been laying on the ground. If I had a hollow point bullet rip through my heart so fast that it exploded and collapsed my lungs, I don’t think I would stand up in order to fall down. Not even if I was a super thug and mighty goon wearing tan khaki pants and white reflective shoes!

        I’m not certain what position Trayvon was in when he was very accurately shot. We know it was at close range. The sound in that area is naturally amplified by reverberation of quick echoes off the facing walls. Even so, many witnesses say the shot sounded muffled. W18 was looking but didn’t see a flash. These all point to close range.

        Further, many described it as a pop. I think one even said a pop gun. Now the gun was small, but not that small. So many said they weren’t sure it was a gun. Who hasn’t see movies and TV shows with loud gun shots in dolby surround? Nobody! So this uncertainty about the sound of a gun seems also to indicate close range.

        While there were many possibilities I don’t think Trayvon was a moving target. They were laying together very close. Could have both been on their sides.

        Here’s my latest idea. Mary and Selma were already on the way to their back sliding glass door because of the freaky cries they heard. After the shot they opened that door and were outside looking at GZ from behind in, I believe, less than 10 seconds, maybe 5. He was over Trayvon as if he were doing CPR from a straddling position. But he wasn’t helping Trayvon! [They thought the shooter had run. They didn’t know GZ was the shooter yet.] GZ was probably pushing the blood and breath out of poor Trayvon so he could not tell the soon to arrive cops anything.

        Mary assumes Trayvon was laying face down at this time. That’s because GZ leaves the body while she is inside getting her phone. When she comes back out and sees Trayvon clearly for the first time he is face down. I think that’s when she say’s, “Oh, my God” on her 911 call.

        But there’s more here that Mary missed. Selma stayed outside observing GZ for 1 minute and 40 seconds. She saw a leg twitch while GZ was still over him. Now, I ask you, in the dark at a distance, how do you make out a leg twitch? It must be a pretty big twitch, eh? Well,…

        Perhaps it wasn’t just a twitch. I don’t know for sure, but how about this? Trayvon was shot while laying on his back. He was shot in the front of his chest. George is immediately over him. The ladies see him mashing on Trayvon’s ribs. While Mary gets her phone and Selma is still looking on at around 7:17:45 GZ quickly flips the body over. Selma notices the legs move.

        • @Jay, that’s a good interpretation of what Selma saw as GZ flipping TM over. We would have been able to see the tan pants more clearly than anything else out there. Too bad her English isn’t that great, so Mary was doing some of the explaining for her in some of the interviews I saw.

          • I meant “She would have been able….” Wow, my English isn’t that great either……

        • I don’t believe TM was a moving target, either. I’m sure that statement by MO was for dramatic effect, but it just amazes me how these friends/family of his can say such stupid stuff that makes him look so bad (as if he doesn’t do a fantastic job of that all on his own).

          I like that you mention that the two could have been on their sides because I have thought this to be a possibility for a while. Except, my thought was they were on their sides and after the shot Trayvon might have slumped over on his stomach as GZ rolled away then pounced on top of him.

          • @Jay and QETNO, speaking of them being on their sides when the gun went off, I posited a theory awhile back to explain the gunshot lead particle on the BACK upper sleeve of GZ’s jacket. No lead could have gotten there if he had shot with his right hand with elbow on the ground while still lying flat on the ground. If he drew the gun with his left hand and aimed it UNDER his right arm (remember he was saying he had to aim around his own hand?) at TM who then lying to the right of him, that would explain it. Also explains why the teacher witness did not see a lot of movement when the gunshot went off. Even though she was a bit far away to see details surely she would have seen a figure drop to the ground. Instead, she just kinda describes a shot and then a man getting up.

            • Would also explain why Austin only saw one man. He said he saw one man with his back towards him on the ground. The person he saw may have been blocking the view of the other.

      • A very threatening quote from last chapterThere are many who cannot wait for the State v. GZ criminal proceedings to end so that George can return some “punitive damage” to the very people who have specifically and intentionally damaged him. The time for these lessons is not now, but soon, after the weight, burden, and black cloud of imprisonment, is removed from his shoulders.

        • @2dogsonly
          This was a direct quote from chapter 6. Sorry didn’t make it clear I was quoting MO’ book. Could this be viewed as threatening witnesses? He has killed someone on much less perception of bad behavior.

          • @2dogsonly, when you say “@2dogsonly” it sounds like you’re having a conversation with yourself LOL! Hey, I talk to myself too…, I think the “threat” is future lawsuits against what the GZ people have deemed the “Scheme Team” or the victim’s family, their lawyers and associates. They think that all of the evidence against GZ is somehow made up or manipulated by them.

            • @was so interesting
              Talking to myself and thinking threat was against Crump & team

              Oh smarty pants, you. Just trying to xplain quote…didn’t want my new buddies to think I had gone to the dark side.:-)

              The quote about returning punitive damage is in the rebuttal post to MO’s book so it is actually against this Judas aka MO. Should have made that clear.
              The rebuttals are so well written and only 3 people received copies, I’m betting they are from Mark O’Mara.
              GZ had quit trusting MO back when he was getting bullet proof vests and was gone such a long time. When he returned he (MO) csaid he gave a media interview as payment for the vest. GZ hasn’t had any contact w/ this slime ball since 4/23 and now the rebuttal person says they feel that was the whole reason he accompanied them to walk through, interviews, and let them stay at his house (all to write a book for monetary gain).

              Whoever is rebutting it, is defiantly undercutting book sales as chapters along with commentary is available for free on Treehouse blog. And they aren’t worried about copyright infringement either.

            • @2dogsonly, sorry, didn’t mean to be smart alecky. I actually couldn’t find the quote you were talking about in Chapter 6. But no matter. You said “Whoever is rebutting it, is defiantly undercutting book sales as chapters along with commentary is available for free on Treehouse blog. And they aren’t worried about copyright infringement either.” As I said in my other posts, I really believe it’s the brother-in-law perhaps speaking on behalf of Robert senior or GZ himself. They wouldn’t be afraid of being sued by the Ostermans. What would be interesting though if O’Mara had anything to do with influencing what is written in the book since MO and SO are potential witnesses. About undercutting sales, I don’t think the treeper readership were really gonna make them rich. But you know what would really undercut sales? If the prosecutor can subpeona the whole book itself and enter it into evidence. Per sunshine laws, everybody would get the whole thing for free, so they wouldn’t make any money from selling to news organizations either.

            • @WSI and Qetno –

              ” If the prosecutor can subpeona the whole book itself and enter it into evidence. Per sunshine laws, everybody would get the whole thing for free, so they wouldn’t make any money from selling to news organizations either.”

              Now *that* would be justice!

  32. Fight Epicenter

    Instead of a fight, I think it was simply an attempt to detain Trayvon. GZ tells investigator Doris Singleton that he was foiled in the exercise of his authority. Tracy Martin says that Trayvon would defend himself.

    To determine where it started and where it escalated we need circles of radiation of the sound from the detainment. [Is sound, either vocal or otherwise, evidence? I believe it can be because they sent the recordings of the screams to a lab for evaluation.] The circles come from which witnesses heard this argument, recognized it as serious from the volume and nature of the voices, and which didn’t. Those that didn’t hear the initial arguing must have been too far away from it. Of the 20 witnesses, some heard it louder than others did. Those that heard it loudest must have been closest to it.

    Consider the map of the witnesses’s homes. DeeDee heard it but we don’t know where, yet. Witnesses 11 and 20 heard it loud. Witness 18 definitely heard it. Witness 6 (John) tells us that he heard voices getting louder as they came.

    Some a little farther away were alarmed but didn’t identify it as a fight. These would be Witness 3, Witnesses 12 and 13, and Witnesses 1 and 2.

    Others too far away would be 5, 10, 14, 15, 16, and 19.

    So far, I reason the epicenter to be closest to W11.

    But, if we look at the bigger map, at where all the houses are, I just want to say there are other potential witnesses. There are houses on RVC west of W18 all the way to the clubhouse. And some on TTL west of W11 going toward the mailboxes. They were all surveyed and flyered by SPD, but some of these are quite close to the epicenter. They must have heard, too, if they were home. Witness didn’t come forward at first because she didn’t think she had anything important. It turned out to be very important.

    • If you put the sounds in juxtaposition with the physical evidence, then the words could have started between the two with GZ at the keychain flashlight and TM at the tan bag. I don’t see any PHYSICAL evidence to say that TM was ever any farther north than the tan bag.

      I think if this were the case, W!! is still describing what he heard – an argument that seemed to come from north of his unit and move past him.

      We’ll never know, however absent a surprise witness or a confession. What matters is that someone closed a gap – and that someone is the person who exited their vehicle after chasing the kid with his car down TTL.

      Dee Dee also thinks GZ closed the gap. W2 seems to have seen someone running, possibly two people running. The prosecution claims witnesses PLURAL to a foot chase. Is it these two, or do they have a surprise witness?

      Many things are possible. WHat GZ claims is not possible, given that he’s either invented dialog, or else can make a jury believe he is more credible than Dee Dee, which I very much doubt. He’s lied about his story in a way that can be absolutely proven to be lies all the way up to “he ran,” which he claims he uttered on RVC, after walking there (not running), a physical impossibility given the time suggested by the NEN call recording.

      The rest of his narrative I also think is false, but can only be shown to be so thru circumstantial evidence and expert witness (subjective) testimony, like the idea that the injuries don’t match the description of the “beating” he took, etc. But juries convict on that type of evidence every day, especially in cases like George’s where his credibility is so utterly lacking.

      • Tchoupi has outlined the several versions GZ gave of his encounter with Trayvon. I think he was trying to match where he thought the witnesses would be found. This is why his story changed so much. As he learned about new witnesses…pop… out of his butt came a new tale. Another lie. This was for consistency. But his trail of lies made him inconsistent.

        One of GZ’s versions of a fight was by his truck. In the last version it was near the “T”. Doesn’t mean it started there.

        • Yes! This is what I meant by Zimmerman modifies his answers to cover what he hadn’t pre-thunk his alibi well enough. He modified his “what kind of running” excuse to Trayvon wasn’t running — skipped instead — after Serino told him your arse better start remembering ’cause this ain’t no bike heist investigation.

      • @WillisNewton -ou

        “If you put the sounds in juxtaposition with the physical evidence, then the words could have started between the two with GZ at the keychain flashlight and TM at the tan bag.”

        Now, this is something I hadn’t considered. Thank you.

        It could very well be that the verbal altercation had considerable distance and in order to close the gap, Zimmerman had to move 40 ft. south! Damn, you’re good!!!

        (I didn’t understand this point until now that you’ve been trying to make all along.)

        • Like I keep saying, many things are possible. Too many, really but what matters is what GZ claims and if THAT is possible or not. The pattern of lies that GZ tells is what makes me curious. He’s obviously hiding how he and TM moved from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area. He claims he was at RVC (without running) when he told dispatch “he ran,” which is impossible. He leaves out the migration of the fight in every account he gives until he’s taken to the scene- I think he’s hiding something here too. The question is, what can the prosecution prove beyond a reaonable doubt?

          They claim they prove murder 2. I doubt they are bluffing, but I also doubt we’ve seen all the evidence and / or witnesses yet, either.

  33. The last excerpt from Osterman’s book was put up by the “anonymous poster” at the nuthouse today.

    1) In jailhouse calls, MO was referred to as “safety” and SO as “safety’s wife”

    2) The name of GZ’s father was mistakenly written as “John” instead of “Robert”. Does that mean MO doesn’t know him that well? Probably.

    3) This tells of the relationship between MO and GZ falling apart: “Upon arrival at the Sanford Police Department he was immediately booked and jailed. Jailed! All along we had told George this couldn’t happen; we probably lost some credibility in George and Shellie’s eyes. I can tell you that from this point on, they were not as open with information and personal thoughts and plans as before.” The anonymous poster said that GZ had already started to distrust MO, suspecting him of talking to a reporter.

    4) MO/SO have not seen GZ or SZ since his release from jail on April 23rd. Their explanation for this: “George’s attorney may have advised that we may be called as witnesses and therefore, information cannot be passed between us any longer; perhaps the limited contact became a way of protecting the Zimmermans and us.” And so they feel it’s ok to pass on information now in the form of a book? Curious.

    5) In his interview with FDLE, MO was asked “Did you know that when George was arrested in Jacksonville, he had a handgun that held over 20 rounds of assault rifle type ammunition, in his possession?” MO’s answer was “The handgun you are describing is my gun. It is a FNH-57. (This gun is ahead of its time as a paper target destroyer and admired by the combat handgun world). I gave it to George,” When told that it was irresponsible of him to give GZ another gun, MO went on a rant about the New Black Panthers, etc. in defending his action. MO wrote “I knew my chances of ever getting transferred to the F.B.I. were now in severe jeopardy, but I had to say what was right instead of what was personally profitable.” Ya know, MO, I think you’re chances of getting into the FBI were already NIL before this and it’s definitely NIL now that this book is out.

    6) Finally, there was another clue supporting the identity of the anonymous poster as being the brother in law Scott (aka code name Ken). A few days ago before the crazy OG lady stopped posting at the nuthouse, she said that she knew who this person was and couldn’t figure out why he/she was doing this considering the fact that he/she let his/her spouse stay with the Osterman’s for 10 days. This book excerpt mentioned how after the arrest, GZ’s sister from “up north” came down to visit and stayed with MO/SO along with Shellie. This really suggests then that the anonymous poster is GZ’s brother in law who helped move money.

    • What does this alleged book by osterman say about arrivng at the retreat, learning of the shooting, moving the ridgeline, and speaking to officers and GZ on the night of the shooting?

      • @WillisNewton, the exerpt below was what I posted above on September 1, 2012 at 7:05 pm. The released text so far does not say anything about moving the ridgeline or about any conversation with GZ. I remember reading some post from diwataman at the nuthouse who is analyzing the police radio transmissions, and he/she estimates that MO and Shellie arrived at 7:30ish pm when the police says something like “we’ve got family coming”. I cringe reading diwataman’s posts but you already know he/she has a blog where you can just get the raw information if interested. He/she has the audio of unedited police radio transmissions from that night.
        “As Shellie Zimmerman and I approached the yellow crime scene tape blocking off portions of a sidewalk and lawn inside the Twin Lakes community, we noticed a patrol car sitting a hundred feet away. […]

        I nodded to several of the officers on the scene that night because I recognized them from ten years before, when I was in the police department. To one of the officers I said, “I have his wife here next to me; the guy in the police car. His name is George and this is his wife.

        “Can you tell me anything that happened?”

        The Sanford police officer quickly answered, “Oh, don’t worry about it; from what I’ve seen, it’s clean.” This bit of “police jargon” meant, in the officer’s opinion, it was pretty clear what had taken place and there weren’t a lot of questions about the incident.”

        • @WSI –

          WillisNewton makes a very good point, imo. The book is alleged until we see it. Admittedly, the only way I’ll ever see it is if the prosecution makes it evidence (as you suggested).

          I predict it will be on dollar store shelves by December 2012 (before it’s mass shredding to make space for other junk books on dollar store shelves takes place). That’s if Fox or the Treepers advertise it or promote it.

          The only thing I see in this so-called ghost-written book is that the Zimmerman defenders can “fish” for how to confuse the facts and taint a jury pool. The republican motto is why not make a buck in the process of screwing over justice?

          • @CSFC, You’re right, anything that has been posted so far is ‘alleged’ and we don’t know what’s in the final copy. The book is listed only on Amazon, and will most likely be printed on demand. Brick and mortar stores are not carrying it. Vanity publishing means that the authors have to pay for printing and distribution, and I think they believed that their “advertisement” on the treeper website was going to get them lots of orders from supporters, except most of the response has be absolutely negative against them. It’s backfired big time there. Any money that will be made will be by the publisher. Their going on Dr. Phil isn’t going to help either. Of note, the book doesn’t show up if you search for “George ZImmerman” on Amazon. Bad marketing glitch there. Only shows up if you search for the title or “Mark Osterman”, and the book cover is a cheap looking fake newsprint article with an old picture of the beefy George wearing an orange shirt, looking a lot more like his infamous mugshot photo except he’s smiling. The book is only known among people who are obsessed with the case anyway. But you’re right, the general public isn’t gonna give a *(&^#($ about it.

            • @WSI –

              “Of note, the book doesn’t show up if you search for “George ZImmerman” on Amazon. Bad marketing glitch there.”

              I’ve been in lurk-mode today, but this gave me a chuckle. Still remembering Zimmerman’s 404 moment for his begsite relaunch.

        • Looks like that elipse st the end of the first paragraph is where MO would have spotted GZ sitting in the patrol car “100 feet away.”. I guess we will find out after the book is released.

          Thanks for posting the exerpt here- I’m not in the mood to read the treehouse site.

          This book is a whitewash, IMO. And it probably continues the pattern set by GZ : when in doubt, leave it out.

        • In MO’s statement to the FDLE, he met SZ at the scene. Seems really fast for MO to be there at 7:30 pm.

    • re: 4) wonder if Osterman knew about the bail money scam by the zimmermans.

      re: 5) forgive my ignorance about gun laws, but aren’t guns registered to the owner? How can you just give someone your gun ?

      re: 6) thanks for possibly figuring out who the anonymous poster is, I have been wondering.

      • I’ve always wondered if goerge’s father knew about the hidden passport and hidden money. Either GZ lies to his dad or else he is a co connspitator…

      • @LeeLee, they could be lying of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised if GZ didn’t let MO/SO in on the money moving scheme. That seemed to be a family affair. About guns, of course they’re registered to owners but I guess having a concealed weapons permit (which was not revoked by the state!) might be kinda like having a drivers license? Meaning it’s like borrowing your friend’s car for temporary use. I don’t know really. MO is in law enforcement so I guess he knew it was legal albeit stupid to give GZ another gun, this time a fancy one that “real” cops carry.

      • @leelee
        Asks about legality of MO loaning GZ his gun as he states he did in book
        Here’s Fl. Law…as long as someone has a permit , is not a minor, nor convicted felon, not adjudicated insane or a vagrant ( I kid you not, law says this..) everything is hunky dory and as of 2008 ok to take gun to work but need to leave it in glove comp.

        • You know, there’s something seriously screwed up with this country if people can walk around with weapons in public places where kids go. I’m sorry, but when I go to Target with my kid, I would really rather prefer that it be a gun free zone. Is that too much to ask? If people feel too scared to go places without a gun, then stay home. When I mean home, I mean HOME, not the next street over in somebody else’s back yard either!

            • The NRA is the strongest lobby in Wash. Everything they ask for is given. That is why they had to lobby for fringe, way-out-there issues; hence the enactment of syg and in 2008 take your Glock to work law.but only legal if left in locked box or glove compartment in car.

              Bring your Glock inside work is next ( joke..hope that not in the pipeline)

              NLME, aka Christopher, has trained me so well to provide research link, I’m feeling guilty–but my laziness triumphs this time. It’s in wiki though, promise

            • @2dogs –

              In response to the NRA, I guess we’ll just have to push for pre-employment background screening that includes searching for CCW permit issuance. I’m sure employers don’t want the liability involved.

              But, if that should ever become the norm, the NRA will push for ALL WORKERS TO BE CARRYING in order to keep the workplace “safe”. “If all citizens employees are armed, there will be less crime” in the workplace.

              Gotta sell them guns!

              Sometimes I wonder if the real answer to the NRA will be development of an alternate use (a productive use) for the materials guns are made of which would redirect the interests of that industry and still generate profits for them.

  34. at least everyone who has followed this case can agree on one thing,the Ostermans are slime balls. I am starting to think that the reason GZ went out full of bravado and upped the intensity when observing a “suspect” might be because MO had been blowing hot air up his ass. Think about it, GZ sees MO as some sort of mentor (so they say) and this is a great ego boost for MO who has this guy hanging on his every word, wanting to be just like him. I can imagine MO was feeling pretty important and full of himself, telling his protege all the exciting stories of his career, about the criminals, how he saved the day on many occasions and adding fuel to GZ’s fire of being the big hero, instilling confidence in his ability and trust in his gun while demonizing the young thugs of today.

    MO is doing this because it makes him feel important, he was in the middle of this investigation, he was protector of GZ, i bet he couldn’t wait to shoot his mouth off but knew it would be more profitable to wait and put it all in a book.

    I still think GZ is unremorseful and a liar and every time he opens his mouth i hate him a little more, but after seeing the way this osterman is operating i can understand why someone was killed that night…..when you put together a man who desperately wants to be important (gz) with a man who thinks he’s more important than he is (mo), someones going to get hurt. The good ol’ boys slapping each other on the back and masturbating over how manly they are with their manly guns, with their tall tales about how they saved the day, always trying to one up each other, of course it was going to escalate.

    One thing that worries me is that MO is such a pig that it might work in GZ’s favour and garner him a little bit of sympathy. I hope that is not the case.

    • The Dr. Phil show will be straight gold digging for MO and an attempt at public relations for GZ. But in the clip I saw of the preview season, both Osterman and Ziimerman are going to be skewered by Dr. Phil. Tee hee hee. In a very public setting. It’s kind of like an answer to Sean Hannity.

      This strange case has two very different frames. The Zimm people see the same evidence and circumstances very differently from the Trayvon supporters. They manage to believe every word GZ says. I’m sensing that most of the average people of the world have been swayed against GZ at this point. GZ really needs all the PR he can get and to make Trayvon look as bad as possible.

      I still want to know what really happened. I think it was murder.

      • Jay i just read chapter 6 and MO really does think very highly of himself. Apparently the FBI and FDLE were no match for him during their interview so it will be freakin’ hilarious to watch him get his ass served to him on a platter on internationl television,

      • @Jay –

        “The Zimm people see the same evidence and circumstances very differently from the Trayvon supporters. They manage to believe every word GZ says.”

        Funny you should say that. I was lurking the talkleft forums the other day and I saw a post from somebody who was not a regular who commented something along the line of “so you people are still of the belief that Zimmerman never went any further south than the sidewalk at the tee”. This garnered a response from a regular which was something like “Is there some proof that Zimmerman was further south than the tee?” LOL!!!!

        Bizarro world is all I can say.

        • @CSFC, bizarro world is right! Hmmm, let’s see, where was the body and the shell casing found? Ok, so if they wanna argue that GZ wasn’t south of the T, then he must have shot TM from 50 feet away. OK, not self-defense. Case closed. Ha!

          • Yeah. And on top of that, Zimmerman admitted being on top of Trayvon Martint’s body after the shot as he supposedly spread his hands apart. Maybe they think Zimmerman moved Trayvon Martin’s body to its found location after Zimmerman shot him.

            • @CSFC, actually in Bizarro World, there’s a lot of leeway. To anyone who believes GZ, his inconsistencies are dismissed as just him being overwhelmed. Being knocked down and pounced on at the top of the T to them means he could have reeled 50 feet before he fell down or maybe TM was a super ninja who sent him flying with one punch.

            • After he put his gun back in its holster. I just listened to his first interview again. It is very enlightening to go back and listen to how his story takes it shape.

    • I’d love to hear the real story of osterman’s career as a con artist working to help his buddy impersonate a sports figure and how he got fired from the sheriffs department for doing so. There is bound to be more to that tale than what made the papers.

      This brings up the topic of investigative journalism and how it has been lacking I’m this case. I had hoped some prominent news magazine would have assigned a credible writer to do a long-lead piece on the case that would even lead to a book deal, but my instinct tells me that those day are over. Absent someone who has a budget for travel and rhe stomach to approach every single person involved in this case, we wont ever know the answers to so many great questions I fear.

      The best we’ve had so far is the NYT article on police “misteps” written by the pulitzer prize winning reporter who covered the Elliot Spitzer case. I wish he’d write a book on this case. But even he couldn’t get norm Wolfinger to talk.

      • Speaking of police “missteps”, this kid has some ideas on how to handle the case, i.e., fire all the grownups from neighborhood watch jobs and cop jobs!

          • @2dogsonly, always glad to share a smile. I just thought it was amusing the kid in the video proposing a proper punishment for GZ in the underworld would be him staring at something he loves and not being able to move to get at it. Made me think. Isn’t it odd that no one has talked about what he liked to do in his spare time? As a hobby. And I mean things other than wannabe cop related things (going gun shooting, doing police ride-alongs, patrolling neighborhood, tailing young black teenagers). Or did he really devote all of his extra energy to that? Just not normal.

        • Sorry, was asking willisnewton to post link to Pulitzer prize author from NYT on police missteps.


            good article, well written, and the reporter went out and GOT the story himself without waiting for a press release, or court order to spark the writing. This sort of reporting used to be common, because editors supported it and funded it and expected it. Compare this sort of reporting to what is printed in the Miami and Orlando papers, the sort of pieces that always start with a press conference or a court order and see the difference.

            Say what you will about the MSM and the NYT in particular, this reporter is doing his job well IMO. [/rant]

            Note he likely did not speak to Serino or SIngleton, and was influenceed by Bill Lee’s version of events but still wrote a good piece. Wolfinger wouldn’t talk to him, either.


    • @jo
      Says most everyone can agree Ostermans are slime balls

      Brand new review on Amazon says Osterman also fired from his air marshal job ( didn’t know that…doesn’t say why)

      A different reviewer named Sharon Soderman gave new 5 star rating saying not to believe bad reviews as bunch of old biddies ( at least she leaves out cat people snipe) from an anti Z blog.

      Then she says MO knows cause he was THERE. A reviewer
      counters with ” are you saying MO was present at the shooting?” That is very annoying to her so replies “you need to get a life snark”. Oh SNAP 🙂 we are down for the count

      • @2dogsonly, out of curiosity, how do you know that reviewer’s last name? Is she an admin at the nuthouse?

  35. urgh…i’m just reading chapter 6. GZ wasn’t sure about signing with Sonner because it looked like Sonner wanted to reap financial rewards from books, interviews etc. Osterman says “I just don’t like the verbage in the contract at all. It seems inordinately slanted toward the attorney making money, instead of representing you fairly.”

    Which means “slanted toward the attorney making money, instead of you making money”.

    Gee, even early on they were viewing Trayvons death as a way of making money, i guess gunning down an innocent kid can be quite lucrative.

    also….Shellie was doing clinical work at a hospital. I guess this means she wasn’t feeling threatened at that time and in hiding..

    apparantly those wanting george arrested weren’t happy with just his arrest, they wanted blood…..what the. I thought all the protests stopped at this point, what a load of crap.

    This passage sounds like he took it straight from the wagist or the nuthouse ..”The people who were clamoring, “No Justice, No Peace,” bullied the authorities with threats to riot if an arrest was not made. The threat was real. Imagine the billions of dollars of damage in every city in America if an arrest had not been made. All this, is at George Zimmerman’s expense. And what if the verdict isn’t to their liking? The voices are not going to stop or be satisfied with only an arrest and trial; they want the only acceptable verdict … guilty as charged!

    I don’t remember any threats to riot, i only remember whack jobs on web sites saying that there would be riots if the “mob didn’t get what they wanted.

    They knew the calls were recorded and had nicknames for M & SO….but why? MO was at the police station with him several times, he was at the crime scene, they knew about him. Why did they have code names for them? but they were stupid enough to talk of money and passports knowing it was being recorded. Make sense it does not.

    He’s describing when they interviewed him….MO thinks he’s smarter than the FBI pffft.. Actually this part is hilarious reading, he’s really big noting himself. Apparently he’s running the interview and allows the FDLE to go in a different direction, what a wank!

    according to Mark Osterman, Mark Osterman is a hero.

    • We dont know what GZ told osterman about what happened that night. We do seem to get the gist of what osterman thinks the world needs to hear and what he claims GZ told him.

      GZs father seems pretty specific about what he heard. I get the feeling George had his basic cover story formed quickly – it’s inconsistent and flawed but he made it up himself, and it centers around his not wing seen as the aggressor, ever. He’s left out two major aspects of the actual events: one is that TM ran away from his moving car and George pursued him on foot, and the second is that the likely blow to his face was delivered in John W6’s back yard, after an altercation that doesn’t match George’s account. The first is easily proven; the second is more circumstantially shown to be the most likely explanation.

      In the end osterman and all he said and all he did is ultimately a distraction. The prosecution can and possibly should ignore him, even if he was the “tipoff man” unless they can prove it in court. George’s phone records will speak to that issue but may not be conclusive. I tend to think Goerge never laid eyes on Trayvon until he drove south past the mail kiosk but absent a confession not sure you can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. It may not be worth trying to in a trial. IANAL however.

      He’s a facinating puzzle piece but I’m not sure it matters in the end. George’s words and George’s actions alone will secure his conviction.

      • Did you know that GZ told Sean Hannity that he found Trayvon 30 seconds after saying, “He ran.” There’s a bizarro statement from one dumber than a bag of rocks.

        This is the reason I don’t study what GZ says other than his NEN call. How could he possibly see Trayvon while still so early in the call? I ask you!

        • I dunno. Maybe GZ means he feels he saw TM 30 seconds after hanging up with dispatch. It’s not likely to be true literally, since we know there are “missing minutes” but what we dont know is whether or not GZ spotted Trayvon with his flashlight from a distance or not.

          • Trayvon had a massive headstart when he ran. GZ says later in his call, “I don’t know where this kid is.” DeeDee says Trayvon thinks he lost the guy. And I’ve been thinking they had lost each other for a time. That Trayvon was found again was due to the facts that Trayvon did not feel he needed to leave The Retreat and GZ put on a rigorous, relentless search for him.

            Could it be that GZ never really lost Trayvon? That he was close the whole time? That GZ knew where Trayvon was when he said he didn’t?

            And who was the other neighbor with W13 (flashlight) and GZ? W5 and W6 see two flashlights and think they are neighbors coming out well before the police arrive. I want to ask W13 who else had a flashlight. Was GZ using one of his flashlights after leaving the body and meeting W13?

            I’d ask GZ but he would say, “Gosh, I have this real bad memory. I can’t remember, Everything happened so fast. I really can’t say.” Anything not in his memorized script by now he probably never will talk about. Notice he never tells us about W19 and her barking dog, Austin and his dog, Selma asking him questions, or W13 taking pictures before the police arrive.

            • Hey, SJ. I can’t remember where GZ said it, but he made the remark that he made eye contact with and yelled for help to three different people. I’m making assumptions here that this includes W19 and W14 along with W6 (IIRC, Austin’s # is 14 – correct me if I’m wrong). I think he only made this remark once from what I remember. What’s funny… you wouldn’t think the person supposedly getting their head slammed and face beat would be conscious of any of these people’s presence, but especially not the two way down the path. I think that’s why he dropped it. I think he only ever stated it to bolster his claim of calling for help.

              I do think it’s funny he wants to leave Mary and Selma out. He never mentioned them in the reenactment. He can remember that while his ass is getting beat/losing consciousness that John and other people came out, but he can’t recall the two women who had to repeatedly try to get his attention. LOL. Can’t wait to hear what the teacher has to say about GZ’s story of jumping onto TM after TM was shot.

            • The remark may have been to MO then repeated by MO in his statement when interviewed.

    • It almost goes without saying that osterman is as dumb as a bag full of rocks and is wrong about the “new Panthers” not being roundly condemned by the family of Trayvon Martin but I do feel it needs to be noted. The Martin family and all their surrogates continually called for calm, peaceful protests and they got what they asked for.

      Osterman (if indeed this is his work) claims otherwise and is factually wrong in the claim that nothing was done about the “new panthers” publicity stunt regarding a wanted poster. He’s opened himself up to a libel suit possibly if he goes to print with the accusation that the family stood by silently while a “bounty” was set for George. Osteman’s publisher (a piece of work in his own right) may be liable too.

      • yes i distinctly remember them saying they don’t want any violence and do not condone it. Funny how they all whinge about Georges treatment but i’ve never seen any of them tell GZ’s supporters to pull their fucking heads in and stop the vile attacks on all family, friends and witnesses that don’t support GZ’s story. I’ve seen some of the most repulsive statements made about Trayvon Martin, the dead victim, and propaganda to stock up weapons and be ready to use them when the “mob” goes crazy, without a word of condemnation from team z supporters, friends or family.

  36. I just noticed this little tidbit I had not seen before.

    Mary Cutcher tells Serino:
    “And they are the ones who called 911 originally saying there’s a fight out front.”

    We know that Jen and Jeremy told investigators the fight was more in back of their townhome. But is this an indication that Mary had reason to believe the argument and altercation was out front of 1211 TTL at some point? That would be in the front yard or out on the street Twin Trees Lane. It could even mean where that sidewalk cut-thru starts at TTL.

    If there’s anything to this it would be that Mary was talking to neighbors and hearing things through The Retreat grapevine. I think she was bothered by not having paid attention to the build up or escalation and only remembered the crying part.

    “The thing that really struck me I assumed I’m going to stay out of it. I wrote the least, you know, just exactly word for word what we saw, we were really shooken up.

    An hour or two after the shooting Selma gave a short statement to the police. Mary wrote it for her. Mary did not make a statement of her own because Selma was outside longer while Mary was distracted with 911 and concerned for her daughter who was across RVC at a neighbor’s house at the time. Mary was scared for the same reason W3 was. They both thought the shooter had run and thought he was armed and dangerous.

    But once I heard that somebody at the end of the townhouse, you know, townhouses are connected. So, at the end… the very, very end is where the fight started.

    So, she’s out canvasing the neighborhood. She was preparing to speak to SPD and go very public on news shows so wanted to know what she was saying. She emphasized that her words are 100% accurate. Seems Mary might have talked to somebody who lives close to that front area. Or she might have got the impression of the fight being out front from W11 or W20. I kinda do as they told Serino it came around the corner.

    • What ever happene to marina dave’s alleged witness who claims he saw GZ run ahead of Trayvon and spin around on him?

      I’ve lost track of which one of W4,7or 10 that is still unknown. BDLR claims witnesses (plural) to a foot chase. So far I’d say Dee Dee, Sean the NEN dispatcher and W2 are the likeliest candidates but it sure would be convenient for the prosecution if marina dave’s witness were real, and cooperating.

      • Would be indeed. Don’t hear too much about that one. I read it and put it in the OdessaGirl pile because it’s never been substantiated and relies on a person that told somebody something that may or may not have been from a direct witness’s vantage point and possibly from a friend of a friend of a friend’s cousin that used to work at the RedBox down the street from Zimmerman’s cousin’s barber. (just being silly here)

        I don’t know what to take seriously or believe about the folks of Sanford any more. Seems like a depressed little racist town of grifters trying to escape to Alaska or something.

        • Thanks, and good to see you, Amsterdam. I knew Chad and Brandy had been identified but wasn’t sure about the third person.

          There are still things to come from the state’s discovery. I don’t know if we will get more eyewitnesses to the actual incident or not however. Seems unlikely to me but then again so many things about this case are unlikely.

          Looks like we may never know what went on in the “missing minutes” unless George confesses. Many things are possible, what GZ claims is highly questionable and unsupported by physical evidence as well.

          • Hi Willisnewton
            Good to see you too. Second discovery list mentions memo’s included for W4, 7 and 10. So that is how I deduced they must be Brandy, Chad and the cousin.
            The state filed their last discovery on August 12th. The defense has 30 days to review it, so it should be released to the public today or tomorrow.

      • Selma said the girl living in the cornerunit told me to go back inside, because there was a shooting. I have a hard time matching that with the statements of the female witnesses living in the cornerunits. So maybe there are still more witnesses.

    • There was a meeting of residents with the police on the Thursday. The police must have put their version, but they were asking for witnesses who’d not yet come forward. But all the residents who attended were talking about what they saw/ heard, did etc. I’ve only seen mention o this meeting. I’ve not heard of any tape or other records being kepi of what went on, or even who attended.

  37. If anyone cares, the Dr. Phil show season premiere with the Ostermans looks like it’s delayed until Tuesday Sept 11 (per the show’s website). I’m guessing it’s because of delays in the US open.

    • I’m not going to watch unless it gets posted somewhere convenient. But it could go all week. The Martin family will be on, too, with Crump and Parks.

      It seems to be some kind of Dr. Phil theme on African-Americans or something, I can’t remember what. Maybe black teens who get murdered by loose cannons. Or people who pack pistols legally but for emotional and psychological reasons shouldn’t.

      • “Or people who pack pistols legally but for emotional and psychological reasons shouldn’t.”

        You mean like people who are unstable, stupid dopes with short man, small dick syndrome? 😛

        • “Or What Happens When Abused Children Grow Up As Angry Adults…A Case Study”

          Or “Before There’s A Victimizor, There’s A Victim ( take a parenting class instead)

    • 9/11? Really? How peculiar.

      I would think the media would be doing a bunch of memorials about 9/11 all day.

  38. Who can read, listen, and watch all the crap put out in this case. However all over the map the few supporters GZ has left…. every time I read more into the discovery I find more to reinforce I have not lost my mind.
    1. April 20 2012 bond hearing; Gladys Z. (under oath whatever) at one point says she leases out 1950 RVC to G & S Z. O’Mara talks over her. Check it out I do not think I am crazy.

    O’Mara and his forensic accountant……distract distract….where is the forensic accounting of monies being collected and used/paid by said donations by/for/of/to Mark O’Mara and if O’Mara took down the gzlegalcase from facebook why is Osterman’s gone as well. Just curious.

    *** “Defense lawyers argue that if the defendant’s social media sites and school records were reviewed by prosecutors, it’s only fair game for Trayvon to undergo the same scrutiny…..If successful, and negative rumors about Trayvon’s social media comments that have circulated the Internet for months are proven true, they would be posted on the defense website and offered legitimacy.” ***

    Can this be called an attempt to taint the jury pool directly by the defense lawyers? How is it legitimacy for him to transfer stuff from the internet cesspool to his website? I’ve said before, go ahead and see what they can dig up and then we’ll see who looks better in the light of day. What would be fair is for him to also post a comparison chart of evidence of past violent behavior between GZ vs. TM.

    But do they really wanna talk about what’s fair? TM was walking along minding his own business, was unarmed and got a bullet through the heart. He isn’t the one in a hotel room being supported by strangers with a murder charge on his head. He’s 6 ft under, that’s what’s NOT fair!

    • re: social media “outing” of parties in the case:

      Two wrongs don’t make a right, and if they expect a judge to rule that is true then they are barking up the wrong tree. Again I agree that the request for social media from TM is just a way to appease their supporters and continue to try to raise money from a dwindling pool of potential donors.

      I think the Z family in general buys into the treehouse theories hook line and sinker and may he pushing O’Mara to respond legally and publicly to appease this crowd. It’s a dangerous game, IMO.

      They’d be better off served if they stayed off the internet and television and just STFU until the trial came along. Every time any of them opens their mouth they stick their collective foot further in it.

  40. Just found this early local report of the shooting posted originally on Feb. 29. Is the son of the woman interviewed one of the known witnesses? Is it Jeremy? She said he went to look and saw the body. There’s also an aerial shot of police cars parked at the community that night. Don’t know if you guys had already seen this, or can make of anything in it, but it may be of interest to somebody.

    • FWIW that car that may or may not be the honda ridgeline is visible (barely) in the helicopter footage and at one point the door is open and at another point a figure is walking very near it.

      Unless the actual footage were examined, you can’t “enhance” it well enough to tell if it’s the ridgeline or not. Earlier explorations seemed to arrive at a consensus that it was not. I’m still uncertain myself. If it is indeed the Honda Ridgeline, it’s likely been moved there by Shellie Zimmerman or Mark Osterman.

      the pseudo ridgeline on the ground

      here is an “enhanced” shot from the ground of the “is it an SUV or a Ridgeline?”

      I’m not good enough at recognizing modern cars – they all look like slightly used bars of soap to me. There was some discussion of where the license plate was located that I recall… sorry I don’t have the details at hand.

      The cluster of cars seen in the heli footage are parked on RVC at the end of the cut thru path where GZ says he walked to. You can barely see the god walk area at one point and there’s what looks like a flashlight probing around near where the white wal mart bag would be….

      None of this means much of anything that I can tell, but maybe someone else could get more details out of it than I. THere are quite a few other passenger/ civilian cars seen around but all on RVC. I can’t see TTL in any of the heli shots.

      • It is frustrating isn’t it? I don’t know much about cars, but I compared your photo with photo’s of the Ridgeline. I don’t think it is a Ridgeline. The back window is different. The bottom right corner of the back windows of the Ridgeline, are cut off diagonally. The sides of the loading area, line up differently with the windows, and the back license plate on the Ridgeline, is placed on the back bumper.

        The clubhouse videos, Zimmerman’s description of where his car is located in the nen call, make me believe he left his car, where he said he did. However, in the eastpool video, you can see a car driving west on TTL going towards the north gate, around 7:15:00. So it is not impossible that Zimmerman moved his car after he ended the nen call.

        • The position of the pseudo-Ridgeline is what’s so bothersome. It’s right where GZ would likely park if he had indeed moved from his TTL “Frank Taafe/ according to George” spot (as I call it) and that vehicle seems to have arrived BEFORE the cop cars, since they are parked elsewhere.

          Thanks Amsterdam for pointing out where it’s confirmed that Bill Lee was on the scene that night. In spite of the fact that I still think there is too much that we will never know, it’s amazing what we DO know about the event of that evening just by studying what’s been in the public realm. So many things I originally thought we’d never get to hear about have found their way to the surface already.

    • I was wondering myself about that witness. I can’t fit the baby or the witness statements with any of the known witnesses. No mention by W11 and W17 don’t mention any babies while they were fleeing to a save hiding place. Joe Manola never looked outside, and he and his wife were assembling furniture. Those are the only couples we know about.
      I’ve been wondering about the other people on that block. We know that the man living next to Joe Manola, wasn’t home.

      • Also, that woman’s last name is Nevin. Of course mothers don’t always have the same name as their sons but that name hasn’t been seen on any of the witness lists either. Is that right Screaming Jay?

        • This one is new to me. There may be some other civilians that came forward or will come forward. I feel there were others that will be necessary in the trial. For example, when GZ was tapping and therefore shining his flashlight around in the dark somebody probably saw him. There are definitely no Nevins in the numbered 20. Remember, the list was alphabetized by last name when it was made. N would have been after W16 (the last M) and before W17 (the first S).

          We can solve the case with the first 20 by making extensive comparisons between sets of them on specific questions. W4 is Cheryl Brown (Austin’s mom). That’s the only home with 3 witnesses. W7 is Brandy Green. W10 seems to be Chad (Brandy’s son).

          • I don’t think it is Cheryl Brown. I think it is Trayvon’s cousin. The second evidence dump list, lists that memo’s are concluded for w4, w7 and w10. A memo is included for Trayvon’s cousin but not for Cheryl Brown. I’ve been able to link all the actual memo’s with the list of witnesses included in the second discovery dump list. The 3 memo’s left were Trayvon’s cousin, Chad and Brandy Green. The 3 witnesses left listed as having memo’s included in the dump were w4, w7 and w10.

            • I think you may be right. I can’t see Cheryl Brown as a witness since she wasn’t there. I know they have a statement from Trayvon Martin’s cousin. At a minimum, he’s a witness that identified the voice of Trayvon Martin screaming for help on the 9-1-1 call.

          • @Jay and WSI –

            Same here re the Nevin lady. Would be awesome if this is a totally new witness we hadn’t heard about. My gut tells me she’s the mother of one of the witnesses we already know about. I’m thinking it’s Manalo’s wife (or live in girlfriend’s) mom.

            • Re: Nevin lady. Wasn’t it her son that was said to live there? In any case, her accent does match Manalo’s or his wife’s. I wouldn’t think that she’s the mother of either of them. Or are you confusing him with Witness 6?

            • @CSFC, I dunno. I’m gonna risk profiling here and say their ethnicities don’t match, but more importantly their accents and names don’t match so I wouldn’t think the Nevin lady is related to JonW13. She did just say he went to look and saw the body. He could be an unwilling witness to the aftermath. The way some of those camera shots were made and where she was pointing made me think that her son lives in a townhome on the TTL side, maybe further down the T just south of W3 (I’m looking at Tchoupi’s map). Just a hunch. If so, he would have been about as far away from the body as the teacher witness, just a different angle. It would be nice to have another witness corroborate what GZ was doing after the shooting.

            • @WSI –

              I actually don’t remember anything about the mom’s ethnicity. I based my guess that it was Manalo on the woman saying her son went outside and saw the body. Manalo’s the only one we know of that. Nevins said they have a baby. You can hear what sounds like small child on his interview recordings.

              I think Manalo is the asian man bloggers refer to, but I think his wife may be hispanic listening to the way she says “You’re the attureney of” during Manalo’s March 20 interview by FDLE. I could be wrong on that.

            • Correction:

              @WSI –

              I actually don’t remember anything about the mom’s ethnicity. I based my guess that it was Manalo on the woman saying her son went outside and saw the body. Manalo’s the only one we know of that did that. Nevins said they have a baby. You can hear what sounds like small child on his interview recordings.

              I think Manalo is the asian man bloggers refer to, but I think his wife may be hispanic listening to the way she says “You’re the attureney of” during Manalo’s March 20 interview by FDLE. I could be wrong on that.

    Dr. Phil’s website has a couple of new clips from today’s show online already (go to middle of the page and put your cursor over the banners right under the one that says “Trayvon Martin Shooting”, and click on the right arrow until you get to the clip). I’ve transcribed them below. Not any new info. Just interesting MO’s amazing foresight into how, when he helped GZ pick out the gun, that he knew someday GZ would be engaged in a life or death struggle on the ground! Amazing.

    ******FIRST CLIP ********
    DR. PHIL: You speak with great absoluteness, you say he is in the right, he did what he was supposed to do, he stood his ground. How could you say that when you weren’t there?

    MARK: Good question. I have tried my best to be objective. Um. But things that George was telling me was actually falling right in line with what evidence we did know. And it was evidence that no one else would have known, because we had him in our home. From the night of the shooting, he was in our presence.

    DR. PHIL: You’re in law enforcement
    MARK: I am.
    DR. PHIL: And I’m not gonna say anymore than that.
    MARK:That reflects nothing upon any agency that I belong to. They have no impact on this whatsoever, this is completely my….
    DR. PHIL: Certainly, I understand. You helped him pick out the gun…
    MARK: Yes, sir.
    DR. PHIL: That he ultimately shot and killed Trayvon Martin with.
    MARK: Yes, sir.
    DR. PHIL: Kay, that makes me wonder, if you are now bought into a point where you say “I’ve gotta defend the guy now, cuz I’m in the chain here.” Does that mean that you need to defend him here? Because if not, you’ve got some ownership in this?
    MARK: From my perspective, when I look at the firearm that we chose. Um, we went out, we selected it, for what fit his budget, but also what worked best to defend yourself. There are a lot of different firearms you use for different purposes, but one for, designed for self defense, this was the *perfect* weapon.
    DR. PHIL: You said you picked a gun that did not have an external safety. Why is that?
    MARK: If you happen to be in a face to face scuffle, fight, that happens to go to the ground, and it’s a life or death struggle, to be able to draw your weapon, and then have another process to actually take the safety off, many times people have been killed and have died from an attack because they keep squeezing the trigger and not be able to deploy it.
    DR. PHIL: Now could that also be an advantage. It seems to me to take out a step, which means that a flash decision can happen, without any…
    MARK: Sure.
    DR. PHIL: …any step whatsoever.
    MARK: Sure
    DR. PHIL: Lemme ask you this. I’ve lived in neighborhoods all of my life that have had neighborhood watch programs. And it’s a neighborhood WATCH program, not a neighborhood HUNT program. Not a neighborhood VIGILANTE program. (Audience claps) And one of the things in every rule that I’ve ever seen in any of the by-laws of our watch programs and any that I’ve ever heard is that it is WATCH, OBSERVE, and REPORT. And that the recommendations are, and you acknowledge it in your book, it’s very well articulated, You do NOT take a firearm on a watch..when you’re out working in the neighborhood.
    DR. PHIL: And here’s a guy on a watch program, packing a gun with no safety, it just smacks to me of Rambo, macho, stompin’ around the neighborhood with a gun! (Audience claps)
    That bothers me and I think it bothers a lot of people.
    SONDRA: I think what a lot of people don’t know is that on that particular night, George was not doing neighborhood watch function. He was actually on his way out of his home to run a personal errand, and if you know George, the way we know George, he carries his gun with him always.
    MARK: He’s legally allowed to have it one him.

    ******2nd Clip ********
    MARK: Terrible fury was felt for George, because the television media that wanted, they were, it seemed like they were reality TV with sponsors. All they wanted to make it so sensational and so outrageous, to me I understand why people have gotten so ferocious in their defense…
    DR. PHIL: So you’re trying to unring that bell.
    Mark: (Sighs) Oh my gosh…
    DR. PHIL: Do you understand the core of this story, this child here, went to get some skittles and got shot dead, so no matter how much you sensationalize that, at the core of it, you’ve got some very heinous events here. And I’m not saying that things don’t get sensationalized in the media, but I think what you’re saying is an absolute insult to the American public’s intelligence (Audience claps) to believe that they buy into the hype and don’t have thoughtfulness enough to look at the core events here.
    MARK: Well, just to wait until some evidence is released. That’s what I was hoping would happen. Analyze that and base your feelings on what might have happened from witness statements and from the lie detector tests, from the investigation…
    DR. PHIL: You think people should wait.
    MARK: That’s the only thing I’ve ever wanted.

    • So based on the clips above, it seems like MO/SO are peddling a book. A curious thing I noticed. Until yesterday, the book was only available on Amazon . They had just changed the release date from Sept 18 to Sept 11 (today). Fine. but then it showed up on Barnes and Noble website for just one day (yesterday), and now it’s gone. Wonder if someone at Barnes and Noble actively pulled it. Also, today at Amazon, it says that the book will usually ship in 1 to 2 months (No guys, I’m not ordering it, that’s just what it says). That’s 1-2 months, not days. The publisher also doesn’t have it on their website either. They’re doing such a good job with this fundraising!

    • This would be hilarious stuff, if one could stifle the impulse to cry.

      “MARK: Good question. I have tried my best to be objective. Um. But things that George was telling me was actually falling right in line with what evidence we did know. And it was evidence that no one else would have known, because we had him in our home. From the night of the shooting, he was in our presence.”

      snarky translation” We got it straight from the horse’s southbound end! He lied to us PERSONALLY! (logic fail #2320008)

      DR. PHIL: You’re in law enforcement
      MARK: I am.
      DR. PHIL: And I’m not gonna say anymore than that.

      snark translation:

      “And I was fired from LE for lying, cheating and helping to steal. But after 911, the air marshals would hire anyone, even a loser like me. That’s why I can’t say more.”

      MARK: From my perspective, when I look at the firearm that we chose. Um, we went out, we selected it, for what fit his budget, but also what worked best to defend yourself. There are a lot of different firearms you use for different purposes, but one for, designed for self defense, this was the *perfect* weapon.

      “it was cheap and lacked an external safety but would hold a lot of hollow point rounds. It’s all you need to kill someone with if you are predisposed to do so.”


      I get the feeling that Zimmerman never really let anyone, even Shellie and MO in on the inside of his story. He’s holding it all in and they choose to believe his lies. Months ago I had thought that perhaps George was coached by his father and someone in LE about how to handle the questioning, and I still think he had some help, but my gut instinct is that he’s never told anyone – certainly not his lawyer – what really happened that night. Were he ever to tell someone, it would have been Mark Osterman I think. But he hasn’t. If he was coached, it was in general terms – “include a death threat, exclude anything aggressive on your part,” things of this nature. Like many I think GZ “flipped” many details of what he did and put them on TM. Others he invented. Much he excludes, as is his proven pattern for inculpatory details. I don’t happen to think resident witnesses and ballistics and expert testimony will be that important to the prosecution. IMO George and his own lies will be the bulk of the case against him, and Dee Dee will only corroborate that he’s pushed a false narrative when that can be proven easily using only his own words.

      Again this is only my opinion but I think now more than ever that he received a tip off of some kind and never say TM until he passed the mail kiosk. Then he shadowed TM with his car, and jogged after him when the teen ran away. We don’t know for sure what happened next but whatever it was, the teen was justified at that point in defending himself against this hostile stranger. It’s also obvious that GZ is lying about how the fight / argument / confrontation migrated and the details of his being struck/ smothered / and head-bashed. What DID happen is probably unknowable absent a confession, but that hardly matters.

      IANAL and I don’t claim to be able to predict what a jury will do, but I think the state has a strong case for M2. But I don’t think the prosecution needs to, or will want to prove all that George has done wrong that evening. I think they should stick to a very basic narrative – George ran after the kid and George found the kid and George shot the kid but wasn’t in physical danger of fear at the time. Add to that the testimony of the boy’s mother saying it was her son calling for help – whether it can be proven or not – and a jury is going to vote for a conviction on at least manslaughter charges.

      • I have the Dr. Phil interview DVRed and plan to watch it tonight. From what I’ve read of Twitter, Mark Osterman tried to say George Zimmerman was diagnosed with a concussion the day following the shooting?! That’s unequivocally false — the family doctor/nurse noted no sign of a concussion.

        • @NLME –

          MO has shown more than once in the interview that he disregarded the evidence in favor of pushing the Zimmerman tale.

          In addition to the concussion baloney, MO claimed Zimmerman is a desk jockey with no fighting skills. Maybe that’s what MO believes constitutes street creds. So, MO would have to be an ignorant, uninformed, allergic to facts Fox Newser (like Robert Zimmerman, Sr. is) to NOT KNOW that Zimmerman has a history of violence.

          Can’t wait to see the ATF undercover officer and Zimmerman’s ex who he was maybe trying to creep with while married to Shellie get on the stand.

          Would love for the State to verify and release the bouncer bit and the tax-cheating involved in working under the table.

    • Spoiler alert (but nothing major or surprising from MO).
      More clips of the show are on the website:

      1) Mark said he didn’t talk to GZ until after he was out of the police station at about 3 am of the morning following the shooting. Sondra saw GZ at the kitchen table after she dropped her daughter off at school in the morning. They said he had black and blue eyes (I still can’t see black eyes on the pictures!), bandages (Shellie put them there) and a CONCUSSION (evidence? None).
      2) Mark had never heard about the allegations from the Arab-American co-worker and GZ taunting him with racist jokes for months. (I thought Sondra or at least crazy OG lady had been on the net and reading blogs. Never heard of this?)
      3) Mark parroted GZ’s claim that the dispatcher asked him if he could still see TM (we know that’s the question that was not asked). Also that he was trying to get an address (why do they wanna keep to that story?) to give the police officer.
      4) GZ got struck and fell on his back (no talk of flyswatting or how he ended so far down south).
      5) They still believe it was George yelling for help.
      6) They conceded that if GZ had never gotten out of the car, none of this would have happened.
      7) Beyond asking them if GZ was a racist and them denying it, there was no discussion in the show about profiling, no question of why he thought TM was suspicious, etc.
      8) About the death threats on GZ’s life, he was ready to defend his friend and that if anyone were to come to his house, they would not be dealing with “an amateur shooter anymore”. (Macho man!)
      9) Towards the end of the show, with Alicia Martin sitting there and crying (Sondra didn’t say much either, also tearing), to explain why he believed ultimately GZ had no choice but to shoot or be killed by TM, Mark made the claim that GZ had never been in a fist fight and that he was not a physical match (bouncer man with no muscles?) because TM was an athlete (re: the photo of TM in a football uniform when he was 14). Alicia’s response: “Trayvon was skinny! Zimmerman’s a GROWN MAN! He could’ve pushed him off.”

      Disappointingly, at the end of the show Dr. Phil says that he’s read the book and thought that it was “factual”. I think he meant that he got the sense that they were not doing it for the money for themselves (but for GZ) and wanted to get what THEY thought were the facts out. Too bad for them even the treepers don’t wanna buy the book either, and the tweet from GZ’s lawyer’s office says “Osterman’s book and TV spot, although well-intentioned, are ill-timed and done without input and NOT approved by the defense.”

      Oh well, their 1 hour of fame is over.

      • Thanks for the run down. I’m watching currently. Still worth it to watch myself? It’s already driving me crazy, lol.

          • “Zimmy says…..”

            GZ’s written statement was given at the police station before he left at 3am the next morning right? If that’s the case, and MO didn’t talk to him before giving that statement, then GZ has to take ownership of all the lies.

            Funny, MO says there are other “friends” that he has, who he would wonder about if they were involved in something like this, but not George. Now all of his friends are thinking “Is that ME he’s talking about?” Gonna be some awkward dinner parties.

      • I know no one cares, but MO’s book started out ranked at about 200,000 on Amazon. Earlier today there was an uptick in ranking to about 25,000 and now it’s back down to 40,000. I have no idea how Amazon rankings work, but I’m guessing that only about 10 times more books were sold on the day of release than from preorders. It’s so hard to find the link to their book on Dr. Phil’s (he doesn’t have a permanent link to it, you kinda have to go looking for the show and then the link, which will probably disappear by next week) and since it doesn’t even show up when you type in George ZImmerman on Amazon, the sales will plummet to 0 by tomorrow. By the way, most all of the “reviews”/comments on the book at Amazon are about how it is inaccurate, etc. I like how a couple of the reviewers have even directed people to reading about the case online using publically released documents and evidence rather than reading the book. There’s also even one negative review by a pro-GZ person, probably a treeper. How ironic.

        • HaHaHa! The “Brittney Hughes” review was on point! Somebody from bcclist gave a good review as well (“cautious shopper”).

          All in all, it looks like another flopped production put out by the zimmerman grifter machine.

          • I would encourage anyone else from here to pen additional reviews/comments for the book on Amazon with a succinct list of things of facts the general public should know. Most people don’t have easy access to all the info we have here, or the patience/ attention span to read through a lot of stuff. Maybe suggest TChoupi’s site as that has many details on one page and it’s very visual. I’d do it myself except I don’t have an Amazon account anymore since my credit card number was stolen years ago right after making just one order.

            • Same-same here re the Amazon account. I was ready to add my 2 cents, but an account is needed. The other “reviewers” covered what I would have said anyway.

          • @commonforchange
            “Cautious shopper gave good review”

            Why, thank you dear!

            Btw, the only other 5 star rating by name of Tracy( has Lupus per her other reviews) is gone.
            And apparently the BOOK is now gone.. ” out of print”. Another giant screw up brought to us by the gift that keeps on giving. 🙂

      • i’ll reply to myself, never mind..

        MARK: If you happen to be in a face to face scuffle, fight, that happens to go to the ground, and it’s a life or death struggle, to be able to draw your weapon, and then have another process to actually take the safety off, many times people have been killed and have died from an attack because they keep squeezing the trigger and not be able to deploy it.

        I think he just described what really happened that night, which is what one of the witnesses mentioned to (arguing or fighting) and many of us here believe happened. He tried to detain Trayvon who tried to get away and fight him off, it went to the ground.

        Thanks MO for this insight to the truth.

        • @jo – I caught this, too. I think he’s mostly just regurgitating the main/most consistent part of GZ’s tall tale. I did find no mention of the menacing dog interesting.

        • Hey Jo, I’ve already accused 2dogsonly of talking to (her?)self. Now you too? 🙂 Sorry, I don’t always reply to the replies to my comments. Actually, I would like to know if there are any stats on how often it is that a person dies because they didn’t get to take the safety off in time versus the number of deaths that could have been prevented if there WAS a safety on a gun. I’ll bet there’s a huge number in the latter situation. If that’s the case, then how do we justify risking all those needless deaths? Notice how MO let’s it slip out “It’s possible….” and then back peddles to saying he’s absolutely sure that TM would have killed GZ that night. I don’t think he believes deep down that TM could have or would have killed GZ. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he had to appear resolute because of the position he’s in. On a different note, I wonder how GZ feels about the title of the book written by his best friends containing the words “The most hated man in America?”

          • hi WSI…sorry i didn’t mean it to seem like i was expecting a reply from you, i was wanting to make another comment and adding on to my previous comment seemed to be the place it fit best, just felt a bit silly replying to myself haha….

            buying the gun seemed all about what the best gun is if you get into a fight with another person. That’s what makes me think GZ was full of bravado because of his buddy instilling a sort of mentality in him about being above the rest and having a right to question people and play cop. Eventually SOMEONE was going to get shot. With those two feeding off each other and making each other feel important some poor victim was going to find himself in the position of having to answer to GZ and he was just itching to use his gun. MO has a lot to answer for as far as i’m concerned.

            Basically GZ bought a gun “in case” he happened to find himself in the exact position that he miraculously did find himself in, a situation he created himself….of course he chose a lone child, he could easily intimidate. Those guys had been training for this moment and it nearly went perfectly…too bad the poor kid was a complete innocent with parents that were willing to fight for justice.

  42. Moment of silence….Today is 9/11, just letting you guys know I haven’t forgotten. I’m sure you’re all memorializing today in your own way. I have a bad memory but will never forget where I was that day. Was my first semester in grad school in a new city I’d just moved to. They dismissed class early, and I remember driving home and seeing the long smoke column rising in the distance, which I only later found out was the Pentagon that had been hit. Here’s a prayer/salute to all those who have made the sacrifice and to those who are still personally struggling with that event. Beyond killing the thousands of people that they did, one goal of the terrorists was to make us feel insecure in our own land.

    I hope someday we as a country will realize that buying and filling up the streets with more guns is not the answer to feeling more secure in our homes and our streets. If anything, its the Wild West mentality of people like GZ and MO, not the terrorists or lanky skipping black teenagers, that will cause of a collective INSECURITY and rob us of our remaining sanity and freedom.

    • You make a good point there – do we want a civil society or do we want a militarized one? Arming the populace is hardly the solution for getting a civil society.

      As for remembering 9/11, I’d like to point out the op ed in the NYT this morning, that reveals that Bush had MULTIPLE warnings that Al Qaeda was determined to attack on our shores but he ignored them. His excuse for doing nothing was to blame the warnings on an alleged JOINT effort of Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein to fool him.

      The USA is a great nation – and we could have chosen to be the world’s hospital, the world’s grocer, or the world’s entertainment center. Instead we choose to be the world’s wannabe cop.

      It’s common knowledge that “Al Qaeda” means “the base” but few know that is short for “the data base,” ie, the list of those on CIA payroll during the covert Afghan war against the Soviets.

      Yes, don’t forget 9/11 and the tragic deaths, but don’t forget the lies and stupidity and bad policy that led up to it and followed it, either.

    • Thanks for this WSI. Haven’t forgotten, and I never will. 9/11/01 – I was just barely into my 2nd year of high school. Between the 1st and 2nd class of the day, the news broke that the first tower had been hit. At that point, no one knew for certain what was happening. Everyone in that school watched the events unfold on the news as the day went on. After hearing/seeing that both towers and the Pentagon were hit along with the news of the plane that crashed before reaching its intended target, it was clear this was an attack on our country. I can’t even come close to imagining how those who were closer to the attacks or lost loved ones feel. I felt and still feel disbelief, sadness, and anger. Strangely, I never felt fear. I quoted these lyrics once today, but here I go again:

      “If I die, if I fall, know I lived it to the fullest
      If I die, if I fall, know I lived and missed some bullets.”

      This is *my* life. I will live it til the day I die however I see fit; I will live, laugh, and love with 100% of myself until the last breath I take. I will do this WITHOUT fear.

      To those who lost their lives 11 years ago, may your souls rest in peace. To those who lost their lives due to injury or illness after 9/11 relating to the attacks, may your souls rest in peace. To those who put their life at risk for others (including and especially those on Flight 93 who chose to face and fight their attackers), you are our heroes. To anyone who lost a loved on and/or affected by 9/11, you are forever in the hearts of people all over the world. 9/11 and all the people will never be forgotten.

      Thanks again, WSI, for sharing – I was moved to add my remembrance of that day and all the people.

  43. MO states on Dr. Phil something about GZ would have done anything he could to prevent TM from having to perish….

    HMMM. This is the GZ that failed to defend himself by any/all reasonable means under the circumstances prior to firing his weapon. This is the GZ that did not yell for help after the shot for anyone to find him or come help TM. This is the GZ that told a witnesses to call police rather than 911. This is the GZ that told a witness he had already called 911, and told this witness not to call. This is the GZ that failed to do any CPR on a kid he claims was still alive after the shot. MO – you are full of shit. Also, MO, much of the evidence has come out, and it illustrates there are so many holes; no water can be held…the inconsistencies and lies just flood right out.

    Also, MO, you said you wouldn’t lie for George… Maybe we’ll call that a truth for now. You’ll just repeat the lies GZ told you. Do you want to tell us all how GZ has his associates? Hah.

    • @Qetno, oh yeah didn’t you love MO saying that GZ had turned his life around since the arrest/injunction earlier in his life, that he was saving money and was using that money to mentor kids? Is that a twist on him getting paid from the program to mentor the kids?

      • Who knows! I’m fairly positive we will never hear from these kids…kind of like it’s unlikely we’ll ever be hearing from the bus driver TM swung on. 😛 Hey, maybe these kids exist, but I’d definitely like to see some independent confirmation from a legitimate source.

        • Well since “they don’t got nobody” as Zimmerman’s mother testified about at the bond hearing, I’d be shocked if they exist, too. This reminds me again of the good laugh Zimmerman and his sister had about his mother’s B-movie dramatic performance that was captured on the jailhouse calls.

      In the third clip with the caption “Mark and Sondra say George is a sweet and loving man….” (Ahem), Dr. Phil was listing the things GZ had been arrested for and then got dropped completely because he went to “Alcohol education program”. MO/SO corrected him by saying “Anger management”. But whoa, do you think Dr. Phil would make that kind of mistake coming out of nowhere? Also, the judge’s order that GZ stay away from alcohol, is that a common order for all accused of Murder out on bond, or was it because GZ’s past in particular? Did he potentially have an alcohol problem? It could have been something that was more of a problem around 2005 with the arrests and all, but wondering if it has resurfaced recently. His buddy Taaffe (drinking buddy, maybe?) did say he had “fed-up issues”. He might be willing eventually to talk more about GZ’s general mindset than the Ostermans.

      • I found my own answer, sort of. I had missed all the early reports that GZ pleaded down the arrest charges by going to an “alcohol education program”. I’m wondering why MO would want to say that it was an “anger management program”. Come to think of it, seems like that would be worse than alcohol issues when it comes to a murder charge, doncha think?

        • WSI, I’ve been confused on this topic, too. I’m wondering if he went through alcohol education *and* anger management. There’s definitely been confusion as to which program he entered. Apparently, according to MO/SO, George Zimmerman went through anger management, found God, worked out all his issues, and became St. George.

          • @Qetno, he did say he used to want to be a priest and then thought he might become a chaplain after he met one that was so nice to him in jail. He seemed to have lost his connection to the catholic church years ago, and I’m not sure what other official denomination would take him. If he gets acquitted on some technicality or spends a few years in jail for manslaughter, he may yet end up starting a cult. And sadly there are adoring gun-toting fans already who thinks he’s a martyr. Can we say Waco, Texas?

        • You are maybe forgetting that Florida is the place to go to get scripts! I think the drug abuse side of this case will be made public before a jury is assembled.

          – Taafe’s mixing scripts with booze landing his arrest
          – Shellie’s mother had a script incident that landed her arrest
          – Zimmerman’s on scripts and we don’t have medical evidence for why, but heht killed someone while on them
          – A Zimmerman works in billing/records at the clinic Zimmerman went to the day after he killed Trayvon Martin; the same Zimmerman, related to George Zimmerman or not, has a previous arrest for pushing scripted drugs

          My first hunch for why Zimmerman told Manalo to call his wife was that George Zimmerman is involved in illegal drug distribution (pushing legal or illegal drugs).

          • @CSFC, I’m gonna reserve judgement on the extent of the “drug” problem if any and drug connections with family members. However, I think there is a high likelihood of a past drinking problem and a possible recent recurrence that may have prompted more aggressive/irrational behavior. There might be some clues in his full medical records and would explain why O’Mara is trying hard to suppress them. I mean, he killed someone and his whole life is now a circus. What is there to hide if the most embarrassing thing he’s been treated for is irritable bowel syndrome?

            • OK. But there is more evidence of scripts being used by them than there is of alcohol use. As a matter of fact, they all say Zimmerman doesn’t drink.

          • @CSFC, you had said “OK. But there is more evidence of scripts being used by them than there is of alcohol use. As a matter of fact, they all say Zimmerman doesn’t drink.”

            Doesn’t drink as in “he’s not an alcoholic” or doesn’t drink as in “he only drinks soda when everybody else is drinking beer.”? If it’s the latter, then he probably had to consciously make a choice to refrain from drinking because it used to be a problem. Note this is my speculation only and I don’t have proof. However, GZ’s own myspace page says he did drink at least in 2005, and his arrest charges did happen at a bar. There’s also a picture of him with a beer on his head. Now granted, to me this looks like a typical twenty-something year old’s media page, and is not evidence of him being a drunk.
            Actually, I’d like to hear more from his co-workers from his illegal party bouncing days.


              ” [Joe] Oliver admitted that he hasn’t had in-depth conversations with Zimmerman, and that most of their discussions took place at family gatherings where “George was probably the only one who wasn’t drinking.” ”

              Why would he need to point that out specifically? If GZ had to make an effort to not even have a casual drink in family gatherings, I would think it’s because he was trying to keep clean. Anyway, who knows. However, this article made me do a double take on Joe O, the great defender of GZ’s character. He was apparently more like an “older uncle” because his wife is a close friend of Shellie’s mother? I just didn’t know their relationship before. Wonder what he’s doing now.

  44. MO says GZ was trying to maintain visual on Trayvon. Yes, that GZ was looking for Trayvon while also looking for a street sign. Well, let’s see about that.

    I have GZ running past W6’s house chasing Trayvon south. GZ tells Serino he was going in the same direction. Serino says, “That’s following!” John W6 thought there was rough housing going on in the back that he says started 5 minutes before the shot. That’s when Trayvon AND GZ run by at about 7:12:00. Remember, GZ continues running for a few seconds after the NEN dispatcher said, “We don’t need you to do that.”

    I have GZ running past W1’s house. She says, “They were running in the back.” Notice this is plural. So, GZ was here moments after passing W6’s yard. This is the only time of running other than Trayvon running to the mailbox cover when rain was pouring earlier. The scuffle later wasn’t at a run as it went 40 feet in 20 seconds.

    We hear GZ tapping on a flashlight for much of the remainder of the call. You tap because you are looking for something in the dark. Serino said given the time and space it was physically impossible for Trayvon to have gotten away. He was hiding from GZ at that point. George is probably going down the dark path checking behind those white privacy fences many of the townhomes have.

    Why the center pathway and not the streets? Because GZ told Hannity he saw Trayvon 30 seconds after saying, “He ran.” DeeDee corroborates this saying Trayvon was still breathing real hard when found. So, there isn’t time for GZ to be going into cut-throughs. This has further been verified by MO who told Dr. Phil that GZ was trying to keep a visual. And this center path is where he knew he lost visual from, so, that’s where Trayvon must be, and I think he was.

    Trayvon WAS behind one of the white fences! It was near Brandy Green’s where he could feel safe and talk out loud. DeeDee tells us he was right by his father’s house. He was also looking north because he knows GZ is approaching. Surely Trayvon sees the searching light from the flashlight GZ is tapping on. It’s acting up due to humidity and might have even gotten rain water inside. But it must have been working or GZ would have discarded it instead of tapping periodically as needed. He also had a backup.

    Trayvon sees GZ coming closer and closer so he lowers his voice on the phone. He decides not to stay there and be accosted. So he walks away. George sees this. To hear GZ tell it this was 30 seconds but we know better. GZ tells dispatch, tap tap tap “I don’t know where this kid is,” at 7:13:11. Trayvon is more likely seen at 7:13:22 when GZ: “Actually, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at.”

    Trayvon goes south to TTL. He’s damn sure not going to be chased out through the back gate to the left. So, he turns right and follows TTL north. DeeDee’s phrase is, “He started walking back again.” GZ is a distance behind him doing his surveillance thing. They are both walking. It takes a minute and a half to go from Brandy Green’s up to W11/W20’s house. By then GZ has closed the gap and is winded. Trayvon turns around at about 7:15:00 and says, “Why you following me for?” GZ will tell us this was, “You got a problem?”

    Now, I don’t know if this is right. It is supported by things that have been said. That’s how I’m working this. I collect together everything and allow it to tell me what happened. I can’t think of anything that contradicts this. Can you?

    • Hi Jay, “MO says GZ was trying to maintain visual on Trayvon.”
      MO tried to reinforce the excuse/lie that it was GZ’s interpretation of the dispatchers questions that led him to leave the truck and follow TM to “get a visual” in his police speak. GZ was/is not a cop, and he was not on a secret ops mission. If they want to exert the notion that he was just on a personal errand going to Target and not “doing neighborhood watch function”, then GZ had no business/excuse/justification for having moved his truck one inch past the clubhouse and front gate. As soon as he called NEN to report TM or moved his truck onto TTL (whichever came first), then he became neighborhood watch. Now the question that Dr. Phil didn’t ask MO was “Would GZ have been brave enough to get out of the truck if he HADN”T had a gun?” Unless GZ was invisible man, the only thing that made him feel like he could do that was the gun.

    • I don’t believe Trayvon went south. I’ve listened to Deedee over and
      over again to get the sequence right, and I think the path was more complicated.
      In the first place, Deedee has Trayvon moving from the moment
      he’d left the clubhouse until the confrontation takes place. That
      means Trayvon was running and walking for about 4 min.
      He leaves the clubhouse because he is being watched and tells her
      GZ is following him in his car. The phone disconnects and she calls
      back. He tells her GZ is still following him and that GZ is really

      Trayvon started running, he tells her he lost the guy. He is breathing
      hard and she can hear he is scared. She said she could hear he
      was scared because his voice changed. When she said lower, I think she meant deeper, not lower in volume. She tells him to run to his dad’s house, but he tells her no he is going around the back because that is easier.

      In GZ first interview he said he pulled over along the side of the street and called the nen. At some time during his call he had lost a visual of Trayvon, because Trayvon went between the houses. Singleton then asks him ” he went between two house?” And Zimmerman says “yes ma’am. Then he has Trayvon reappearing out of the darkness and circle his car and disappear again, before he gets out of his car. In this first story, he doesn’t say he pulled over at the clubhouse.

      The following day at the reenactment, when he stops at the clubhouse to make his call, he gets very vague about how Trayvon moved to TTL, and he uses his “I lost visual contact, and the dispatcher wanted me to tell me where he is” line, to have him self move to TTL, and the line about Trayvon going between two houses has disappeared.

      I think Trayvon ran between two houses on TTL, going north crossing RVC and continued running between a gap between the houses, on the other side of RVC in the direction of Oregan ave.

      I think that is where he told Deedee that he thought he lost the guy, and Deedee tells him to go to his dad’s house and Trayvon replies ” I am going around the back, that is easier”.

      I think he walked, ran behind those houses going east and maybe south. He stopped running and started walking again, according to Deedee, because he was out of breath and he thought he had lost GZ.

      Deedee tells him to keep running, and that is when he tells her he is near his father’s house. I can see him saying that at this point. He was scared he ran, he lost the guy. All he has to do is cross RVC, go through the cut-through and walk down the dogpath.

      GZ could’ve followed him between the houses, or ran through the cut-through east, thinking he would cut off Trayvon on his way to the back entrance. He may still have been on RVC, when Trayvon crossed it. He even may have been back near his truck when he ended the call, and was driving on RVC when he saw Trayvon again. A car is driving west on TTL at what I estimate 7:15 pm, so that is possible.

      Why do I think this is what happened?
      It would explain the missing minutes.
      It fits Deedee’s timeline including the “I am going around the back”.
      I think if Trayvon went straight, GZ would’ve stopped closer to the cut-through.
      When Trayvon sees GZ again, he says “he is following me again”, which indicates to me they were both moving.
      Trayvon was seriously spooked. When a 17 year old starts running while talking to a girl on the phone, he is scared. I don’t believe for a second he just ran around the corner, to stop behind one of the screens to continue his conversation. His father and Brandy weren’t home, he could’ve gone to the garage if he wanted privacy.
      There is no evidence a chase took place south of where Trayvon was shot. The woman who said she saw something out of the corner of her eye, may have seen Austin or his dog.

      I think he didn’t want the creepy guy to know where he lived and that may have been the reason he didn’t run home in the first place.

  45. Many things are possible. What GZ says happened is not possible. What can be proven in a court of law is what I am concerned about, as much as I personally would love to “know” what happened in the missing minutes and last seconds of this doomed teenager’s life.

    In a court of law if can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ pushed a false narrative to police that includes multiple lies, contradictions, omissions and obfuscations surrounding the move from clubhouse area to cut thru area.

    The rest is circumstantial, unless the state can introduce a credible witness to a foot chase – they have Dee Dee, Sean the dispatcher and possibly W2 at least to strongly suggest a foot chase – do they have more? They also have the slight injuries to contrast to the tale of a savage attack.

    I think they have enough for a conviction, personally but it hinges on GZ’s complete lack of credibility being established regarding his movements during the NEN call, which can be contrasted with his lies to investigators, etc. This portion of the prosecution’s case uses almost only George’s own words to impeach his credibility. It’s impossible to defend against, IMO since the defense can only introduce “reasonable doubt” by impeaching the credibility of the defendant. Dee Dee CORROBORATES the idea that TM waited by the mail kiosk, and chased TM with his car, but even without her george alone, and a map and a stopwatch prove he never could have began his call by the clubhouse parking lot on RVC, and that he also could not have been describing TM passing his car when he was in the final “by the cut thru” position due to the “long tail” of time before GZ says TM is running. The teen would be out of sight by then if GZ were parked that far down TTL.

    The location of the body contrasted with GZ’s many repeated spoken and written statements about falloing to the grass after the initial blow is as close to proof of a false narrative as the prosecution might get in the altercation, but I see the lies as a major event coming so close to the fatal shot. No one “stumbled” 45 feet south of the T in the manner George suggests. He’s making it up on the spot and doing a poor job of it in my book.

    The lack of description of ANY defensive moves on GZ’s part during the physical altercation is a tell-tale behavior that fits his pattern of proven lies: when in doubt George leaves it out. The prosecution need only float the suggestion that George LIKELY tried to detain the youth, and even if the defense objects the suggestion is still left lingering. What DID this liar do during the fight besides shoot his gun? No one is going to believe he kept his hands in his pockets the whole time, but according to George he may as well have, since he only ONCE speaks of defending himself, and that’s during his silly “dog paddle-patty cake” mime during the walk thru “re-enactment.”

    Everyone is allowed their theory of what happened in the dark after George got off the phone, and I’ve got mine, too. But I think the prosecution should present their case in manner that allows each jury member to decide for themselves – without having to argue amongst one another – what exactly happened in the missing minutes and final seconds, but to all agree on these points:

    George lied to investigators all the way up to “he ran” and that the prosecution proved this beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefor the defendant has zero credibility.

    George got out of his vehicle in hot pursuit (with a depraved mind) to chase an unarmed teen without identifying himself and therefor any suspicious action on his part – such as reaching for a cellphone/handgun could be interpreted as a hostile act by the teen, who had a right to STAND HIS GROUND.

    George’s injuries don’t seem to match his description of events – not the fear for his life part, which is indeed subjective – but the EVENTS – the multiple blows to the face and the smothering which can’t be heard interrupting the calls for help.

    George may or may not be the one calling for help. The FBI is right in saying the tests will be inconclusive.

    The mother of the teen thinks it is her son calling for help.

    George did nothing to help revive the teen, or make sure an ambulance was coming, yet claims the teen survived, and spoke after the shot – depraved mind.

    There are other points, and good ones, but with these alone a jury ought to vote to convict on M2 IMO.

    If S. Jay, Amsterdam and myself were all on the jury we’d all disagree about what happened in the missing minutes. But that shouldn’t stop us from agreeing 100% that the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is lying, pursued the teen, caught up to the teen, shot the teen and acted with a depraved mind and was not acting in self defense. We would also LIKELY agree that GZ tried to detain the teen, was lying about his injuries, had a “tipoff man,” was never in the clubhouse parking lot, stopped at the T, never stumbled 40 feet south and therefore was not returning to his vehicle when the two first made physical contact, etc, etc. and that even if the prosecution couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these supporting things are true that the defendant is guilty of M2 anyway, given the totality of evidence against him. We could heartily disagree on matters like who was yelling for help, whether or not Dee Dee makes any sense or not, and what the residents saw or heard in the dark, and it wouldn’t change our verdict – it would only make deliberations drag on for a while, until a consensus was reached:

    GZ is a liar who chased a kid and shot him not while legally acting in self defense. Guilty as charged.

    • I think that if the prosecution can proof Trayvon was at the mailarea around 6:54, they can show with the clubhouse videos that he could have never spotted Trayvon where he said he did. They may be able with his phonerecords, that he was tipped off. If they can show that, he left his house with a gun looking for Trayvon.

      I agree we probably will never know for sure, what happened in those minutes before he was killed, unless they have witnesses we don’t know about yet.

      • Call time records are not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of a tipoff man. What was said by the callers? We wont know. But they are yet another detail that might show GZ wasnt telling the whole truth to investigators. SPD investigators had George’s phone and I thought they copied all his info from it. When is this info finally going to go public? (and aren’t we due the latest discovery after the 30 day review? ) And as far as using clubhouse videos in court, although I find them fascinating and potentially compelling, I think the car to pedestrian chase can be proved without them. And as far as “proving” TM was at the mail kiosk, what they seem to have is Dee Dee, whom I find credible but is her word sufficient beyond a reasonable doubt or not? Hard to say for certain.

    • “But I think the prosecution should present their case in manner that allows each jury member to decide for themselves – without having to argue amongst one another – what exactly happened in the missing minutes and final seconds….”

      This is a very good point, presenting the facts to the jury is an art form I suppose. Enough for them to digest, but not too much to overwhelm them and cause a hung jury, or worse an acquittal.

    • @WillisNewton –

      You and Professor Leatherman have arrived as similar conclusions.

      The difference I see is that DeeDee (unlike other witnesses) can speak to Trayvon Martin’s fear as he tried to avoid a confrontation. Give that part some thought.

      Professor Leatherman also cites a case relating to a two-part altercation whereby the killer hunted down his victim.

      • Thanks for the link to the professor – he and I agree on a lot of things. But don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying Dee Dee’s statements won’t be allowed. I’m just not a lawyer – the prof is, and a criminal defense one at that – so I’d defer to what he says. I’m actually questioning the idea of whether or not a jury would be swayed by her or not. I find her 100% credible, myself but can’t predict how others might see her. And I don’t know yet if they will get to hear her or not.

        For me the sticky issue is just that I’d like to show how the prosecution can prove through George’s statements and recorded call ALONE that he chased Trayvon down TTL with his car. And I think the prosecution can get 95% of the way there if not all the way there with ONLY George’s words, a map and come common sense. It’s just awfully darn convenient that Dee Dee corroborates this exactly.

        George himself told the dispatcher that TM was “near the clubhouse/yeah” and established a timeline for himself with his call, wherein he describes many movements of the teen as he comes and goes, seemingly towards and away from the defendant. But after the fact GZ has told contradictory, inconsistent (and most importantly inconsistent with the recorded call) things about where he was when he placed the call and how he moved from clubhouse to curt thru. The timing shows he couldn’t have really been at either end of his supposed path when Trayvon passed him. He’s clearly somewhere in the middle, and he marked a map at the first corner of TTL before quickly amending his statement in a suspicious manner. Working only on the key that a jury buys that TM was anywhere near the clubhouse at all – mail kiosk, front door, lounging in the hot tub, i don’t care – just closer to the clubhouse than he was to any other man made structure then George himself has proven he chased the kid down TTL, IMO.

        I’m going to keep saying this – many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.

        Leave out Dee Dee, leave out the clubhouse videos, and we are still left with one scenario that fits all the timing, removes inconsistencies and resolves contradictions – that GZ is lying and parked near where he first marked the map – or that somehow his ADHD and PTSD etc allows him to suspend the laws of space and time, because the fact remains that George was SOMEWHERE when he was asked by dispatch “Is he near the clubhouse now?” and answered in the affirmative.

        Many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.

        • “Many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.”

          Indeed. That proves he lied. DeeDee proves George provoked Trayvon’s defensive actions… even his running.

          I think it’s the difference between a 95% chance at a guilty verdict and a 100% chance of a guilty verdict. Admittedly, these percentages are pulled from my.. opinionator parts. 🙂

  46. I would like some help.
    I have made a timer for the clubhouse videos. Timestamps were included with the videos, beginning at 6:30 pm. According to the second evidence dump the videoclock was 18 minutes slow. So I start the clock at 6:48 pm.
    I want to put the videos, the clock and the audio from the nen call together.

    I think the nen call, actually starts later then 7:09:34 pm. I think I can hear Sean hitting the enter button at 1 min 14 sec into the call. That would be the creation time 7:11:12. That would mean the call began at 7:09:58.
    Does anyone disagree with my analysis?

    I think it is not very likely the clock was exactly 18 min slow. What I would like to do, is to assemble one or two videos first, and have some people look at it, to see if we need to make some adjustments before putting the other videos together.

    Does anyone have other suggestions?

    • I’d be happy to help in the review process. Here’s something I found on Professor Leatherman’s blog ( You might find this interesting as it seems very close to what you said you’re trying to put together:

      It’s another great vid (IMO) from LLMPapa.

    • I think the call Zimmerman placed started in the 7:09:34 range. I have never fully understood why anyone should accept the 7:11+ timestamp as the call time when all it shows is the log creation time which indicated some conversation between a caller and dispatch took place and the record was created after-the-fact. If the connect time shows 7:09:xx, then that’s where evidence analysis should begin because Zimmerman’s recorded action to contact NEN began at that time.

      In other words, whether Zimmerman had 4 mins or 6 mins to hunt is a different matter than Zimmerman laid the ground work for justifying his hunt almost 2 mins prior to dispatch’s ability to create a log.

      • I agree that the connect time is 7:09:34. The creation time is the time that Sean entered the first entry for this call at 7:11:12. At that time, Sean had all the info contained in that entry. I heard Sean hit the enter key at 1 min 14 sec. I subtracted the 1 min 14 sec from the creation time 7:11:12. That gives me the 7:09:58. So I think that GZ called at 7:09:34, but the audio begins at 7:09:58. At 1:14 in the nen call, GZ had communicated the last info contained in the creation entry of the call, that would be late teens.
        I would appreciate if people could listen to the nen call again, and let me know when they think Sean hit the enter key for the first time.

        • OK. Just got a chance to relisten. One key seems to have been pressed 1:14 into the recording. You may be on to something.

      • To be clear, I want to add the audio track of the nen call to the clubhouse videos. So I am trying to synchronize the nen call as much as possible with the video.

        • Be sure to use the unredacted one. Others lose or add time at the redaction edit points.

          Jerilyn at Talk Left has a transcript of the NEN call with some of the sounds indicated here:

          Click to access alternatetranscript.pdf

          Maybe we could do even better if you can hear ‘Enter’ keys. Those and the clubhouse vids are still mysterious to me.

        • What will you use as a sync point for the picture portion of your picture-plus-audio? It seems like you have a 0:59 second margin of error if all we know about the clubhouse vidoe is that it’s 18 minutes off, and nothing about the second hand on the clock.

          I don’t know what’s visible on the east pool video and you would be making an assumption to do so but IMO the background noise following “these axxholes always get away” is a car shifting gears as though to execute a two point u turn.

          But I’m afraid that movement is all taking place within the camera flare / blown out area at top left. And I’m unsure if GZs headlights are on or not. I tend to theorize that GZ made two u turns- he crept past the mail kiosk and made the corner at TTL and then turned back to face the mail kiosk, possibly creeping up to the corner with lights off. Then when TM walked past (possibly in the grass) he made another u turn to follow him down TTL, causing TM to run when he reached the second corner. GZ stopped his car where his headlights could shine down the cut thru.

          I have no opinion on what’s visible or not in the clubhouse recordings. I’m basing this on what GZ says on the NEN recording and the timing of walking speeds and the maps, including the one GZ marked himself.

          But what you are trying to seems interesting enough to experiment with.

          • Both shining one’s lights on a person standing in a mailshed or shining one’s lights on a person running down a sidewalk leading to a cut-through to escape after the intimidated person expressed a desire to flee the situation are intimidation tactics.

  47. I have uploaded info on Witness 5 – the individual transcripts and the composite. I also inserted her composite into the case spreadsheet.

    I also posted info for Witness 6 – all the individual transcripts and the composite. I just got his composite done. It is in order and all there but still in a rough state. I’m going to refine it a bit before stuffing it into the spreadsheet.

    Going on to work on Witness 11 now.

    • Thanks for the update, SJ. You’re doing us a fantastic service! Again, thank you x a million!!

      • You’re so welcome. I just added a few files for witnesses 11, 14, 15, 16, 18, and 20.

        How to get to them? Go to the new article on BCClist called:

        Links to Sites Created by Commenters Regarding the Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Shooting

        NLME: I think Lonnie Starr also has a site.

    • Can’t wait to read up on this. What you’ve done is so dedicated and I think it’s great! Thanks, again.

  48. I saw a young black male in my neighborhood today. I did not recognize him. He was walking about and looking at all the houses. I found his pace to be rather leisurely.

    I waved and smiled, so did he. I kept walking my dog, and he kept walking himself (lol)…

    No one died. No crime was committed by this man.

    It’s sure amazing what can happen when one acts civil and rational.

  49. According to this miami newspaper article, the next round of discovery from the prosecution to the defense is going to be released next Wednesday, which will be 19 SEP 12.,0,877076.story

    The article lists SOME of what will be included but doesn’t give a source for the information other than to say this is according to the prosecutors. I wonder if a complete list is out there somewhere. I wonder if this IS the complete list or not…

    “The records are among those given to Zimmerman’s defense last month, including 217 photos from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, eight photos taken by a private investigator hired by Trayvon’s family, Zimmerman’s school records from Manassas, Va., eight incident reports and the cell phone records of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who Zimmerman shot Feb. 26 in Sanford”

    What I am hoping to see eventually is GZ’s phone records, and other things that were supposedly already released, such as the notes/ summary of the de-briefing of SPD officer Singleton by FDLE and or FBI, as well as the actual interview tapes themselves if they exist including the matching interview of Serino, for which we’ve seem a summary.

    I’d also love to hear the tape, if it exists, of the interview with Mark Osterman. According to his book his interviewers told him he was NOT being recorded. Not sure I believe that. The summary also loosely claims that MO said he spoke to LE and to GZ at the scene that night but “not in depth.” MO claims in his book he did not speak to GZ until after the initial questioning and GZ was released from custody. I see a conflict of information there… It would be great if that was cleared up eventually – under oath.and with the actual interview recording.

    What else are we missing? There have been indexes published… can’t pull them up from my messy notes just now.

    The prosecution has been cagey about releasing discovery materials from the get-go, and only seems to do so carefully. Several important things have been released in sub-standard facsimile copies, such as the map GZ marked, the police officer’s cell phone picture of the face of GZ sitting in the police car, and the interview audio of Dee Dee with Crump/ABC news. What’s next?

    • “The summary also loosely claims that MO said he spoke to LE and to GZ at the scene that night but “not in depth.” ”

      Actually I think the wording was more like, MO did not talk to GZ or the officers in depth. In breaking up that sentence, the “in depth” could be referring to just the officers. That is, it could be interpreted as MO did not talk to GZ and MO did not talk to the officers in depth. I am so not defending MO, just saying what the report could mean and it might not necessarily be inconsistent with what he claimed in the book of not talking to GZ until after the police interviews. In any case, the other officers at the scene should be questioned to corroborate that.

      • I agree that officers on the scene should have been questioned at length by SAO investigators. But from what we’ve seen so far they were not.

        And I also agree there is wiggle room in the FDLE summary for osterman to have claimed not to speak to GZ on the scene. But why wouldn’t he if he could? And wasnt this question worth asking more in depth?

        I think in some regard the SAO didn’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth and they did not scrutinize the deep inner workings of the SPD for that reason.

      • Thanks, thats what i was looking for. In that case the Miami newspaper reporter didn’t mention one big item – the entire FDLE report, with analysis (probably a summary.).

        That report itself could contain almost anything, I’d say.

  50. In the Dr. Phil teasers for his interviews of Tracy Martin and Sabrina Fulton, Tracy Martin breaks down. I have often wondered if he felt guilt (just as DeeDee said she did). This child once saved Tracy Martin’s life and his feelings of anger over not being there to “take the bullet” instead of his son are certainly understandable.

    I hope both Trayvon Martin’s parents get extensive counseling to thwart any feelings of guilt they may feel now or eventually. It wasn’t there fault that Zimmerman gunned him down.

    I am still pissed at the teacher that gave Trayvon Martin a 10-day suspension for something that could have been handled in a different way. I’m not saying it was the teacher’s fault 100%, but I hate how some of the new breed of teachers don’t give a chit about kids and act like pretend cops (like Zimmerman).

    • @CSFC, a school suspension would have been doled out by the principal, not any one teacher, and I think he/she would also have to follow school policy regardless. No, the blame can’t go there either. But I agree there’s a lot of guilt around the case, from Tracy to Austin and DeeDee. The only expression of guilt we haven’t heard about is GZ’s. I really think he would have been better off if he had just owned up to his mistakes early on and just admit he was wrong in profiling and pursuing TM. If he had done that and not lied, maybe the judge or jury would believe he was fearful, stupidly wrong, but in his mind fearful for his life (still not sure he would get off on that but at least the sentence would be more lenient, I would think). But all of the lying and half-a$$ed apologies (I’m sorry you lost your son, not I’m sorry I killed your son) is gonna hang him.

      • You’re right. Instead of “teacher” I should have said school official. We don’t know whether it was a teacher, an administrator or a security guard yet.

      • Every time GZ opens his mouth, ask yourself (as he clearly isn’t) how I this going to sound when it gets read back at the sentencing stage?

        And even when he “didn’t open his mouth” like at the bond hearing wher he was sitting on all that hidden money and a valid passport? I’m glad it won’t be judge Lester handing down sentencing because the new judge won’t feel any conflict of interest over speculating about flight risk. The new judge will see if for what it was- a deliberate opportunity to have an illegal exit strategy.

  51. Witness 11 confirms what DeeDee says about the argument. The words GZ spoke are almost identical in both testimonies. And Witness 11 said them on March 2, DeeDee on March 19.

    Singleton: So, when we talk about this exchange between them, you don’t know if George was speaking at the start of the conversation?

    Witness 11: At first we didn’t even know how many men it was. It could have been four guys. It sounded like, you know… he’ll probably tell you the same thing… It sounded like a couple of drunk guys or a group of drunk guys. That’s why he was going to maybe go out and see what was going on. But we didn’t know how many people were out there. So, it just sounded like, Hey, Hey. Not “hey” even, but

    Serino: I got you.

    Witness 11: it was just yelling. Like, “What are you doing… What are you…” kinda like that.

    Listen for yourself at the 6:43 mark of the Serino interview with Witness 11 at Axiom Amnesia. Very confrontational, challenging. Uncanny how similar this is to DeeDee’s “What you doing around here?” What this shows me is that the argument started very close to W11/W20’s house because they noticed it and could make it out even with their TV on. It means that the end of DeeDee’s account is the beginning of everyone else’s. It means that DeeDee’s wording is right and GZ’s is wrong. In other words, GZ paraphrased it to make Trayvon look agressive. “What’s your problem?”

    Trayvon probably didn’t say that. What’s remarkable is that Trayvon probably did think GZ had problems. The crazy, creepy look that Trayvon was doing something wrong (being there) and the following in the car made Trayvon think GZ had problems. That’s what DeeDee says he told her.

    The whole character of the argument seems the same for W11 and W8. Not just the words yelled by TM and GZ..

    • On the money, SJ. She blindly backs George for the most part, but this statement from her is untainted (unlike her belief that poor GZ was attacked and screaming, which was fed to her) and it fully corroborates DeeDee’s version. It seems the teacher, while not hearing the exact words, also corroborates that it was a loud, two person argument, which is not consistent with GZ’s version. I want to know more from Manalo’s wife… Didn’t she look out the window and tell her husband two men were fighting, but he told her to let the men handle it? I’d also like to know more from W1 (I think…might have been W2) who looked out the window and saw “fists.” I’d like to know if she ever described exactly what she saw (punching, grabbing, swatting?).

      • Oh, yeah. There is long sequence between this loud, dominant voice argument and the gunshot. It went through stages of cries, whines, yells, screams, helps, and a few other words. We have to keep in mind that over this minute plus the witnesses were observing and hearing at different times. There was quite a bit before we hear for ourselves at 7:16:11. Hear how well that picked up on W11/W20’s phone? They must have been looking out the back. They are describing things you can’t know from hearing, such as coming around the corner, rolling on the sidewalk, moving from left to right. But if you saw them and you didn’t want it to be known for liability reasons, you could say you only heard them. I really want to hear a completely unredacted recording of that call.

        But different witnesses describe the same sounds in different words. They were also concentrating on and remembering sounds at different times. I believe these can be put in order and even put into a timeline. One thing I keep noticing is that several witnesses say, “help, help, help.” Only witness 3 speaks of the long, sustained “help” like I hear. So, I’m wondering if earlier there were shorter “helps” in multiples like two or three. Isn’t that what GZ did in his weak attempt at recreating the “helps”? Maybe they were weaker and said in multiples earlier.

        • I still find W6, W11, and W20 very suspect. W11 stated she called her neighbor (John – W6). I want to know when and why she called him. Did she call before, during, or after the shot? I think those three have a lot more they are not telling. While I find Manalo incredibly weird, I don’t think he is suspect of anything…except for maybe apathy with his “let the men handle it” and “what gun did you use” comments.

          Regarding the helps, it would be very interesting if before the first 911 call there were shorter helps. This would be good to know. I figured the witnesses were just trying to emphasize the fact that there were a number of repeated helps called out. They definitely weren’t in quick succession, though. You’d think GZ coulda/woulda done a better job at trying to mimmic the calls for help considering he did get to listen to the 911 tape before the recreation of the screams/yells.

          • @Jay and QETNO, yes the unredacted 911 call of the yells would be helpful. I had posted a question earlier if anyone could hear two shorter helps after the loud scream but got no response. Right after the really loud blood-curdling yell, I heard two more “helps”, a longer help and a short help. Now I was only able to hear these last two helps with the volume way up high with pretty good speakers on my laptop. The very last short help a millisecond before the gunshot was almost inaudible but to me sounds like GZ’s help in the voice exemplar he gave to the police. However, it’s clear to me the loud scream did not come from GZ.

            I was just thinking, TM was probably surprised by GZ probably grabbing at him (get off get off!) and went into the scuffle just trying to fend off the weird crazy man. TM probably thought that GZ was a skinhead trying to yell help to his buddies to come help him jump this poor black kid (Shut the eff up!). TM’s yells and screams would have been full of emotion and fear, which we hear in that loud scream, I’m guessing that’s the moment GZ pulled and had control of the gun. GZ’s deliberate wimpy “helps” were no more than him trying to get neighbors and police to help detain the “suspect”.

            • WSI – I’ll definitely give the call a listen again when I’m able to get a better set of headphones. I’ve listened to that call way too many times. I know I thought I heard something one of the times I listened, but I don’t have a good enough set of headphones/speakers at the moment. It’s hard to single out sounds because there’s the gunshot, multiple voices, and an echo all at the same time. I wonder if any of the witnesses recall hearing any additional helps after the shot.

    • Since they were watching tv, I wonder if W11 and W20 are the Nevins link. Don’t know if they have a small child, though.

        • Hi 2dogsonly, how do you know that the Nevin lady is related to W11? Is that based on your gut feeling because of the mention of the TV or is there other information? Just wondering because she said he went to look and saw the body. Since in his testimony W20 said he didn’t see anything and also did not talk about seeing the body, even after the gunshot and everybody else was out there already. Many of us here had been questioning whether he was holding something back. Is this evidence then that W20 is hiding what he really saw? (as suggested by what we heard on the 911 call “Jeremy get down” “get in here!”)

  52. Looking forward to the new evidence dump, oh Lordy do we need it.

    On a seperate note, for those of you so inclined, pls say a prayer for my nephew. As soon as i saw Trayvons photo my heart sank because it was like looking at a photo of my nephew a few years ago. He had a serious work accident 2 days ago and is lucky to be alive, but he is not out of the woods yet. It’s fucking heart breaking, at best he is in for a long rehabilitation. He has always been the love of my life and i use to worry i wouldn’t love my own kids as much lol. Anyway, i don’t know if it helps but its worth a try, the more people praying for him the better.


    • @jo – I’m so sorry to hear about your nephew. I hope he pulls through and recovers. Please do keep us updated, and I will absolutely keep him in my thoughts/prayers. Sending positive vibes your way!

    • @Jo, your nephew is in my prayers. I’ll also dare to speak on behalf of any silent readers of the blog who want to send prayers, thoughts and well wishes your way via this post. Here’s to a speedy recovery for him!

    • thank you so much QETNO, CSFC and WSI…..approx 8 hours of surgery today and now we just wait. Your thoughts are so much appreciated xx

      • I hope all went well with his surgery, and I hope you and the fam are hanging in there alright. Keep your head up, Jo.

        • thanks guys, apparently he is doing well, next 48 hours and the following week crucial. Lucky he was a fit bugger and strong as an ox. The surgeons are happy with their work. They are still in shock that his bones weren’t crushed to mush instead there are 8 clean breaks and a few dislocations. His foot was severed from the heel but it is the skin and muscle grafting from where his foot and heel were stripped that will determine if he keeps his foot. He just got into boxing and weightlifting and that’s all he talks about, he has not even acknowledged the worst. He is super drowsy but so friggen strong he knows everything they are doing and bossing everyone around in between knodding off and swearing like a trooper. But they say he is very polite for a 21 year old (turned 21 on friday) especially considering his pain. They have already brought him up some elastic straps so he can work his upper body. So you probably don’t need to hear all the details but i love this kid to death and appreciate all your concerns xxxx

          • It sounds like he’s an incredibly strong-minded/strong-willed young man. 🙂 Thanks for the update, and I hope he continues to do well.


    This blog says “In his book, Mark Osterman wrote that Shellie was at her father’s house at the time of the shooting. She immediately called him while he was out walking his dog in his own neighborhood.”

    I hadn’t read that in any of the excerpts at the nuthouse, so wondering how he got a copy already. Maybe from one of the audience members of the Dr. Phil show? Anyway, just wondering how far her father’s house is and if that would have added extra time for them to meet up and come to the scene together.

    • Oh actually, I noticed the publisher is now offering MO’s book as an E-book that can be downloaded immediately. I guess we’ll be hearing about more details sooner than the 1-2 months that it’s going to take Amazon to deliver a paperback (6 copies sold there to date!) The prosecutor should really enter it into evidence!

    • Hmmmmm, didn’t i read somewhere that GZ said his wife was with his friend…or maybe he was talking about after the fact.

      • @Jo, I think GZ was referring to the fact that at some point Shellie was with Osterman. GZ didn’t say when or where they came from.

        • yeah i always thought it meant they were together before the call but realised i could have it wrong and it was actually after the fact that he was talking about. Of course he could just tell us the fucking truth and we wouldn’t have to second guess everything he says but i don’t think that will happen any time soon. big big sigh.

    • There was a blurb on NPR yesterday that said recently, when the subject of SYG has come up in Florida, in the government, it has not been changed. And yes, the killer really does get to go home right away.

      Maybe the Trayvon Martin case will make a change. This will depend on how the trial goes and how it is covered. I think GZ will take it all the way to trial because he really believes he is innocent.

      • That NPR article says: [Braswell said family members of the person killed in a Stand Your Ground confrontation also suffer and deserve justice. Defense attorney Mark Seiden, one of several supporters of the law on the task force, took issue with that. “If we have to look at two possible outcomes — one being a citizen, an honest citizen who is wounded, hurt, maimed or raped, and a dead thug, I’ll take the dead thug anytime,” Seiden said. ]

        Most people would agree with that statement, but who can we trust to make the determination that the deceased was a thug????? TM was already determined to be a thug on scene by the guy left standing with the gun and the officers, who even influenced the witnesses “that’s OK, the guy yelling for help is OK”.

        • Zimmerman’s lawyer of course admits this is not a “stand your ground” case.

          (Former) Police Chief Bill Lee claimed it was a “Stand your ground” type-incident.

          I’m hoping the case can cause these barbaric laws to be scrutinized more. What’s the statistic? A six-fold increase in justifiable homicides in Florida alone?

          • The argument with SYG is that the justified killer does not have to go through the expense and “stress” of a trial. Well fine, the state can provide the defense or reimburse them if they’re determined to be justified at trial, or at least at a hearing before a judge. Ironically, GZ would probably not have gotten so much national attention and be better of if he were arrested that night. It wouldn’t have added anymore stress to the guy. He’d been arrested before. Oh right, they didn’t even bother to pull his prior arrest record that night, is that true? TM’s family have always said they were only looking to have GZ go through the court system and they’d accept whatever the outcome of that, not to have it swept under the rug by the good ol’ boys club saying their hands were tied by this backwards law.

  54. How could Trayvon still be winded from the run when GZ finds him? Well, maybe it wasn’t quite like that. There is an explanation. I’m going to re-interpret how it might have happened using some of DeeDee’s words. I’ll throw in some of my time guesses for your amusement. If you’ve already read the transcripts you can skip to the explanation at the bottom.

    DeeDee: He said this man is still watching him. And right before he say he’s going to run… He’s saying the guy looks crazy…and creepy…because he said this dude is like watching him…Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, Run to his Dad house. So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said. he was going to run from the back because this man was watching him. ’cause somebody was following him very close with the car. He knew that the man was on the phone to somebody so he was about to make a run for it from the back. Trayvon sounded scared. Real pannicky.

    DeeDee: So, next thing I hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’… So I could tell he was running at that time… and then he said…I think the man got off (out?) by some reason…cause he said the man was still following him. he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad house.

    DeeDee: Trayvon had run for it. And then… he said he lost the man. So, Trayvon at that time…I could tell he was like, out of breath, like excited… He say he lost him… OK…he was breathing hard.

    DeeDee: So, and in a couple minutes…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda change… Trayvon! I know he was scare. I… could tell he was scared. Voice was getting kind of low…breathin’ har’… So, I could tell he was emotional like somebody who was like in fear. And then the man come… and then Trayvon say the man was still following him.

    DeeDee: And then he told me like the guy was getting He getting close by him. I say, “Run.” And Trayvon say he not going to run. And I say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run cause…I could have known he not going to run, cause he out of breath. And Trayvon said he ain’t gonna run like that. He was gonna walk fast from the back. and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run. And then he say…I told him, ‘Why you not runnin’? He say, ‘I’m not go’ run,’ cause he tired, but I know he tired. He was breathin’ hard. Real hard. It was not raining at that time cause I hear him OK.

    DeeDee: He started walking back again…and I told him ‘Keep runnin’. He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house… And the man was just following him close like walking to him like fast. Like when Trayvon was walking fast, he was walking faster following him. And when I’m telling him “Run, Run, Run”, I was being emphatic like… Shouting…shouting at him. and he told me the guy was getting real close to him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…

    7:15:00 Argument by witness 11’s house
    Now for the explanation. My hypothesis is that Trayvon ran straight back to Brandy’s. Those who think he did something tricky and convoluted would need much more time for Trayvon’s run. It would then take minutes for GZ to locate TM if he was really lost and hiding. We can agree that GZ lost sight of the kid. I think that was around 7:11:50 when George got out of his truck. He doesn’t see Trayvon again until TM walked away from his hiding spot at 7:13:22.

    Trayvon has run and by 7:12:11 is resting at Brandy Green’s. He is looking back north and does not see GZ at first. For about 20 seconds he thinks he lost him. The catch is that Trayvon, after running, while still catching his breath at about 7:12:30 notices GZ’s flashlight searching along the path he just ran. He’s talking to DeeDee telling her GZ is coming closer and closer. So, TM saw GZ coming about 50 seconds before GZ knew where he was. Finally, when GZ is quite close, Trayvon walks away at about 7:13:22. GZ sees TM and begins following him again.

    • Many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims is not possible. Why speculate beyond the given?

      I can think of quite a few specific questions to ask Dee Dee and the resident witnesses that might help clear up some points, but few of them have much hope of ever making George’s story seem plausible.

      George can be proven to have lied to investigators and to have chased TM with his car down TTL. George told the dispatcher he was following the teen (obviously on foot.) Trayvon was afraid and ran away – George confirms the last part himself, but clearly tried to hide it, never speaking of it during questioning unless prompted. (Absent the NEN recording, SPD would never have learned Trayvon ran away.)

      George told the dispatcher to change the rendezvous point, seemingly abandoning the idea that he would be by his truck when they arrived. George claims he was attacked and struck first, but claimed many times he was struck and fell backwards into the grass, or fell immediately after being struck. His “stumble” re-enactmant is less than 60% of the actual distance he would have had to travel were he actually struck where he claims, from a spot on a path that is walking “towards” his truck. He leaves out almost any and all defensive acts whatsoever that he did with his hands except shooting the teen, yet claims they were in a physical fight. The location of the body is on a path towards safety for the teen, and not towards the truck’s alleged location.

      His story simply is not credible, and it’s certain he pushed a false narrative to police all the way up until “he ran,” which George falsely claims happened when he was at RVC, which is not physically possible given all George claims before, mostly that he did not run to get there.

      What’s the point in speculating about how they arrived in John’s back yard? One guess is as good as the next. Absent a secret witness, or a confession we just aren’t going to know, and putting all your eggs into one scenario simply increases the chances that you are wrong.

      Here’s what I know happened: George profiled the teen, chased the teen with his vehicle and on foot, found the teen after changing the rendezvous point away from his truck, admits he failed to identify himself to the teen, claims he made a threatening gesture – reaching for his gun-phone, and then he shot the teen after sustaining seemingly minor injuries in a struggle where the teen essentially stood his ground against a threatening individual who was not acting reasonably. Later, he pushed a false narrative to investigators, and additionally hid money and his passport from the court.

      • willis: appreciate your constant feedback and reminders to stay on solid ground. I don’t believe any one speculation is right because of the reasons you mention. But I don’t think they are a waste of time. It is a process of sifting and sorting the indicators. Many who were directly involved on Feb. 26 have given us scraps of information. Scenarios that are closer to the truth will include most of the things they have indicated.

        GZ bothers and troubles me. Those who support him trouble me, too. I want to know what to look for by the time of the trial. Much more needs to come from the witnesses and I am going to figure out what those things are. As I listen to the investigators questioning and the testimony they got, ideas come to me. Having as many of these as I can helps me keep my mind open. If I don’t think of possibilities, then the physical evidence is useless. These speculations are what make the evidence make sense and hold together.

        I have many more ideas that I just haven’t organized yet. I’m sure all of you do, too. In the end we’ll all say, “Oh, I suspected that. I thought of that. I knew that was how it would turn out.”

        Even you, my friend, are spinning ideas that we have all been chiseling out of stone for the past 6 months. It was work to get to what we “know” now. It’s a thought process that will probably continue until the trial. We can learn more than we know now. Then it will be in the jury’s hands and will pop like a balloon when their verdict is read.

        • Fair enough. I just think we need more data at this point. I’m as guilty as anyone of soeculation, I fully admit.

          I’m just ready for the next document dump and weary of trying to figure out where GZ went in the missing minutes. Too many possibilities and not enough data for my taste.

          I’m more interested in studying the pattern of his lies and applying that in a speculative fashion. He worked hard (in vain) to hide the running, and the car to pedestrian chase. He seems caught in the lie that he ever stumbled anywhere once he was struck in the face. He’s also very suspiciously leaving out what he did with his hands during the physical struggle, and he has injuries seemingly inconsistent with his stories. I place as much stock in deducing a scenario from those sorts of clues as I do in parsing what the residents saw and heard. In other words it’s guesswork, but sure it’s worthy guesswork if it eventually leads somewhere when and if we get more data.

          I can’t wait to hear what the FDLE report has in it.

          • Willis i love reading your posts, you really do try and stick to what can be used in court and i totally appreciate it. I also love reading everyone else for the different things they offer. Sometimes all the finer points are lost on me because i don’t have the mind or intelligence to disect the major points, but i am still very engaged for the simple reasons, the emotional reasons, this basic “what the fuck was he doing harassing an innocent kid and killing him” reasons.

            I get so much from each persepective, from the break downs of witnesses, to the location of the car, to the clubhouse lights, to the witnesses, to the simple cries for justice.

            I really love what you are doing Willis and look forward to all of your posts and know what i can expect from you and appreciate also what i can get from every one else. Thank God we have this wonderful forum where we can blend it all together. I would not have seen things about this case had it not been for your perspective, or jays, or qetnos, aussie, princss, riisey (i miss u), csfc, nlme, tchoupi, WSI and everyone else. I come here because i can get a bit of everything and because everyone loves to drink (cheers qetno).

            It’s rare that i go anywhere else, and completely amazing that apart from a few hostile visitors this place has remained so darn respectable.

            Looking forward to next weeks dumps, and looking forward to all the different perspectives by everyone.

            • Thanks for the kind words. This is a great group and I’m proud to be a small part of it. My first months of being a commenter in blogs were spent at talkleft blog where a hyper-zealous moderator deleted anything I wrote that wasn’t easily provable in court, time and again. It’s made me into a stickler for the legal end of the case but in my opinion all the emotion, heartbreak and injustice will be present in spades if and when this case is presented to a jury.

              George Zimmerman is the best witness for the prosecution. His words alone and should be enough in court to show he profiled, pursued and provoked Trayvon.

              This us the kind of testiimony the defense cannot impeach. “I said x but I really meant y” doesn’t get you far in court.

              I’m no lawyer, and in fact sometimes I think our criminal justice system is this country’s only working railroad. But it’s the only mechanism the Martin’s have to turn to for now. And in this case it seems to be bringing justice, however imperfectly it may be to a lying child killer.

              I only wish there were also a full outside and credible investigation of Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger as well. Of all the things we won’t know, thier hidden actions bother me the most, since justice and sunlight isn’t as certain there.

            • now that would be one hell of an investigation, that’s for sure. Lets hope it’s next on the agenda.

    • I guess we never really know what happened, but from my own experience, I just can’t imagine it.
      I’ve had an experience with being followed and an attempted assault, and that was followed a couple of months later with an assault in a stairway. I think I was sixteen.
      I got away unharmed both times.
      I can’t say that everybody will react the same way I did. But what I do know, is that your instincts take over, and you don’t react the way you think you would.
      The moment you turn around and start running, you relinquish power. You’ve become prey. You don’t think it, but you know it.
      Trayvon had the advantage that Zimmerman was in his car. That gave him time to get out of his sight. It is counter-intuitive to me, to flee in a direction where Zimmerman could see him, an then stop near his home to continue his call.
      If you choose to run in a situation like that, you are scared shitless.

      You know that you have signalled your fear. The adrenaline is pumping through your body, your heart is beating like crazy, you’re shaking and your knees are buckeling. If you are near your home, you go inside.

      That is my experience. I am open to hearing how other people experienced similar situations.

      • it depends. He knew this guy was watching him, but it’s hard for him to know just how much trouble he was in. He didn’t know this guy had a gun and was going to shoot him in a few minutes. I’ve second guessed myself a few times and though…is this guy following me? He walked to the cut through and then probably thought see ya later MF and ran off road knowing that this idiot couldn’t follow him there because he was in his car. I doubt he seriously thought this creep would get out of his car to continue the pursuit. He probably thought he was pretty safe. GZ said the flashlight wouldn’t work so as Tray was running/jogging/skipping home he wouldn’t have been any the wiser that GZ was out of his truck in in pursuit. Then he see’s him, now it’s serious, this guy really is pursuing him, he’s in his back yard, WTF! Now it becomes real.

        Arrgh i want to vomit. So many simple things could have saved this kid, if only he knew he had a trained vigilante on his ass who’s weapon was especially purchased to end a face to face scuffle that might end up on the ground. That description by MO is enough to make me believe GZ felt safe enough to confront someone.

        • I know most of my experience comes from me second guessing myself. But what did you do in those cases? Did you run?
          There is a certain progression in fear in these circumstances. When I found myself wondering if someone was following me or displaying an uncomfortable interest in me, I would feel the first level of anxiety. I would asses the situation in which I found myself first. Is it dark? Are there other people around? How dangerous is my situation, if this person means harm?
          The first strategy I would apply, is to walk away. If the person has no particular interest in you, that would be the end of the situation.
          If this person then starts moving in the same direction as I do, my anxiety would reach another level. Next thing I probably would do, is to slow down or stop, pretending I was looking at something, and by doing so allowing the person to pass me. If that person would also stop, I would know I am in trouble, and I would be getting really scared. That is the level of anxiety, where you may start running, but at that point you also know you are being preyed upon, and the person who has been following you, also knows that you know and doesn’t seem to care about that fact.

          Now, I’m talking from a white female perspective. I think, in the same circumstances as Trayvon found himself, I probably would have gone to one of the houses with lights on ring the bell or I would stand in front of that house facing Zimmerman and make sure he sees me making my call to 911.
          Or I may have suddenly changed direction by going through a gap between those houses, knowing I will have some time to disappear while out of his sight, because he can’t follow me there in his car.

          If you listen to Deedee’s story, Trayvon did seem to apply some of the early strategies. So I think that when he ran, he had established in his mind that he was in danger.

          I think most people would do something similar, but I may be wrong, so I would like to hear from other people, and what they did under similar circumstances.

        • Exactly. Trayvon Martin’s danger honing skills weren’t yet fully fine-tuned. You develop those skills through experience. He first ran and, imo, probably thought he escaped because he either did not fully understanding that he was really under attack and shrugged it off as his own paranoia over being in a community that he was less familiar with -or- he simply shrugged off his gut instincts because, nah, this ain’t happening to me — it only happens in the movies.

          In any event, Trayvon Martin abandoned his initial gut instinct to run and convinced himself he was out of danger. That’s why I think he was just chilling on the phone until Zimmerman re-confronted him. He thought he’d lost his stalker and probably thought he had overblown his initial fears anyway.

  55. Witness 11 transcript files are in place.

    The first draft of her composite is up, too. The composite is a chronological ordering of all the words a witness says; just the sequence without times except (1) where the witness gives times and (2) in the 911 call. It’s handy to see all the text for one witness in this form.

    The big spreadsheet is where I timeline things. I do this carefully but time estimates are a lot of guesswork. I’m interested in your advice and corrections.

  56. “The five of us were deeply touched by the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Trayvon looked like us and took his last breath less than 30 minutes from where we live. We hope this song helps to heal our nation.” — Limitless5ive

  57. Didn’t Serino say it would defy the laws of physics for TM to have made it home and then back, at least taking the route described by GZ? Take a look.

  58. I’ve been off the case for a whole week and more now. It was nice reading from you guys. I’ll try to play catch up.

    Jo, I’ve read about your nephew. I hope things moved for the better. I’ve recently been myself though somewhat similar situation and I have to say that I’m fortunate to be to put that behind and live normally. I don’t pray but I sincerely wish for your nephew to be able to put this behind.

    Concerning GZ’s case, I have a few points to make but I’m not sure I’ll be able to do it quickly. So, I’ll tackle only what I believe is simple.

    To Amsterdam, you should not take the published 18min time offset of the clubhouse vids as hard proven values. It is in fact just a rough estimation made by SPD based on the ambulance appearance at the north gate.
    R38 logged his “on scene” at 7:27:26. So, assuming the 18min is correct, this event happens at the 39:26 time stamp in the video. The ambulance is see arriving at the gate at 39:41. This is indeed not too bad. We can argue about 15sec assuming R38 made its log from the gate. But, it really is not too bad.
    What is really bad about the 18min is how to fit it with Ofc T. Smith story. T. Smith logged his ARV to GZ’s NEN call at 7:17:11 and was seen by Wit 3 from her front room giving on TTL at 7:17:47. Therefore, these two events should happen at the 29:11 and 29:58 time stamps of the videos. I logged all the events (, so it is not too difficult to check that there is no vehicle entering the complex and going to TTL before 30:54. There are 2 vehicles entering the complex at 29:12. So, it may sound pretty good. However, both turn right and drive west on RVC without even an halt by the clubhouse. So, they can’t be what Wit #3 noticed while on the phone with 911 dispatch. There is one car at 30:20 but is goes east on RVC toward the gate. So, that’s not T. Smith entering the complex and it is more than 1min later anyhow.
    I’m therefore left with just one option: the vehicle that came in at 30:54. That one is interesting not only because it goes on TTL from the gate but also because it really moved slowly along the mailboxes kiosk. The pattern for cars going from the north gate to east gate on TTL is 5-6sec between GR vid & EPH vid. That car makes it in 12sec. The additional evidence of its slow pace is the red light spot it showed on the EPH video by the kiosk. The only other car I can remember showing a light spot on the EPH by the kiosk is GZ’s truck who stopped there for 10sec. Finally, that vehicle went east and disappeared from the EP vid at 31:30.
    Now, if I assume that at 30:54 in the vids it is 7:17:11 then at 31:30 it is 7:17:47. That works very well for T. Smith story and wit #3 911 call. However, it means that the vids are not 18min off but rather 16min & 17sec. How does it work for the ambulance? The ambulance appears at the gate at time stamp 39:41. So, it is 7:25:58pm which is 1min & 28sec before the “on scene” is logged.
    It is not great I agree. It takes only 30sec to drive from the north gate to the east end of the dog path and it took the ambulance 13sec to clear the gate (total 43sec). I’m still off by roughly 45sec. Nevertheless, I have nothing to tell me at what point R38 sent his “ON SCENE” message. So, I feel more comfortable with assuming that the videos are off by 16min rather than 18min because at least, I have T. Smith’s vehicle and the ambulance in the videos.

    • Tchoupi thanks you that’s really sweet of you. You have been missed and i’m glad the worst is behind you. Really happy to see you back.

    • Hi Tchoupi,
      Good to see you back.
      I got the 18 min from page 87 of the second evidence dump. It is part of the FDLE investigation report. It says the information that the camera clocks were 18 minutes slow, came from the tech person from the company in charge of the maintenance of the clubhouse video system. So it doesn’t appear to be an estimate based on light events on the videos.

      I agree it raises some questions about Smith’s movements, but it does match the info we got from the nen call. When I use the 6:48 start time, Zimmerman’s nen call begins when the truck is somewhere near the corner of RVC and TTL, and he is driving at a snail’s pace past the mailarea, during the early part of the nen call.
      The rearlights at 22:50 in the eastpool video, would’ve been at 7:10:50. That would place that event very close to the time Trayvon started walking away from the clubhouse.

      You are a lot better in interpreting the lights than I am, and I’ve been using your interpretation of light events.
      I would really appreciate if you would look at the sequence of lights again and explain to me, where I go wrong in my interpretation.

      We can see what looks like a car passing by the mailarea at 22:14 in the eastpool hall video. The lights that you describe as the headlights in the eastpool hall video, belonging to the car making u turn, can be seen between 22:32 and 22:50. The rear lights of the car driving east on TTL begin at 22:50 in the eastpool video. That would mean the headlights can be seen before the car makes its uturn. That could mean the video’s aren’t synchronous, but other events don’t show that.

      It could also mean those lights belong to another car facing east on TTL, but I don’t understand how that could be, when I look at the camera angles in one of your presentations, unless the car was on the sidewalk. I would really appreciate if you could explain to me where the car was located, for those lights to show up in the eastpool hall video.

      I do see headlights, like you said, around 23:30 in the eastpool video, that could indicate Zimmerman made a uturn.

      The problem I have with the car making à uturn is the following reason:
      At I believe it is 23:34 a car is moving north on TTL past the mailarea. That car must have been the same car as the one of which we saw the headlights in the eastpool video just before that.
      That would indicate to me that car was heading back in the direction of RVC.
      We don’t see any car going west on TTL until the emergency vehicles begin to arrive.

      So, if Zimmerman made a uturn, he must have left his car north of the mailarea and not east.
      Now I believe when Zimmerman opens his mouth, it is very likely it is to tell a lie, so I’ve seriously considered the possibility that he made a uturn and was driving back towards RVC.
      The reason I don’t think that is a likely scenario, is because of the description he gave in the nen call about the location of his truck. At that time he had no reason to lie.

      My question to you, is your scenario of the car making a uturn, based on the sequence of the light events, or did you see something else that I have missed?
      Is there a reason to exclude that the car we see moving west on TTL is another car, and Zimmerman did not make a uturn, but continued east on TTL?

      • Of all the events to choose from for a sync point on the esst pool video, the timing of the NEN call is the one we know to be accurate in some regard. But of course it’s only a general estimate. The visual of Tim Smith by a resident should be “ballpark” right as well.

        If the investigators ever put any stock in the clubhouse videos it seems logical that the thing to do would be to wet the streets down with a water truck and shoot a few test videos for comparisons’ sake. I’d sure love to see a daytime view of the east pool video as well to verify the exact camera angle.

        IMO the camera flare that obscures the top left of the frame in the east pool video is likely a floodlamp that shines on the pool and deck, and is mounted on the eaves of the building. It also seems that the angle of view is such that the very edge of the road of TTL at the cut through corner may be on the edge of frame.

        What I can’t tell is his far the cars that travel east on TTL are from camera at what point.

        What might be the porch light at w11’s house seems to come on at one point close to the action of what seems to be GZs movements.

        I’ve not deciphered the action well enough for myself yet but I agree with Amsterdam that the idea of two cars is worth examining. I also wonder if GZ may have turned his lights off around the time of his first (if there were two) u turns.

        Whatever these videos show, and IMO they are still inconclusive but need not remain so with further analysis, they already go a long way towards being valuable evidence of GZs lies. A reasonably simple battery of recreation tests byte FDLE would quickly resolve almost all the questions thus present as to movements. It’s unsure if the exact timing could be determined or not.

        Thanks to everyone who has been helping work on this puzzle piece, Tchoupi especially.

        ( I dint think the prosecution feels the videos are needed to prove guilt, but again IMO they are dropping the ball by not pursuing this line of inquiry. What’s disturbing is how these videos seemingly point to a tipoff person, which is literally a “conspiracy theory” at this point but may not stay in the realm of speculation forever.

        • “IMO the camera flare that obscures the top left of the frame in the east pool video is likely a floodlamp that shines on the pool and deck, and is mounted on the eaves of the building. It also seems that the angle of view is such that the very edge of the road of TTL at the cut through corner may be on the edge of frame.”

          The light in the top corner frame expands towards the pool, when a car driving west on TTL goes through the bend on TTL heading north. The only other time you see a light comparable to the event, is the light of an emergency vehicle. It is possible that that vehicle parked in the area you described.
          I don’t think it is a porchlight. The light can be seen for a couple of seconds then disappears and appears again from a slightly different angle. I’ve considered a tight uturn right in the bend of TTL, but it just doesn’t make sense that the rearlights from a car that can be seen going east, are seen after the headlights of that same car facing west.

          As I interpret the light events, it is possible that the car that passed the kitchen window, and turned south on TTL, could have made a uturn. I just don’t see how the lights we see on the EPH video, could have been part of that sequence. But I have been wrong before, so I hope that Tchoupi can explain to me how that conclusion was arrived at.

          The biggest problem I have with the car making a uturn, is that the car appears to be moving, going through the bend on TTL towards RVC.
          It doesn’t matter whether the video begins at 6:46 or 6:48, no car drives east again on TTL after the car we see driving towards the north gate and before the first emergency vehicle on TTL. If that was Zimmerman making a uturn, he could not have left his car on the east/west section of TTL.

          The prosecution may be able to proof GZ’s guilt using the clubhouse videos, if they can show that Trayvon got there long before Zimmerman did. in that case he must have gotten a tip, and left his house packing a gun to go hunt for Trayvon.
          Another thing the videos show is that GZ’s behaviour, if the 6:48 time is correct, must have been very intimidating in Trayvon’s eyes. It would make a mockery of GZ’s statements about Trayvon’s suspicious behaviour and it also backs up Deedee’s statements.

          • We need to define some terms and find the areas we can all agree on before delving too deeply into all this, I am afraid. I wasn’t sure of a lot of what you were just writing about, Amsterdam. It’s all so subjective, you know. I think I agree with you but I’d hate to jump the gun and misunderstand.

            east pool combined diagram w tell tale reflection location noted

            Here is a set of photos and diagrams that might help us all get on the same page before we diverge opinions….

            I think the car in question at the 23″38 mark that “re-appears” and makes the constant flare bloom dramatically could be the same car that disappeared into the blind spot seconds before. But we need to slow down and figure out what we are even looking at, I think.

            The pools of light that reflect in the wet street are worth watching, I think. The absence of constant light sources is as important as the appearance of moving ones IMO.

            I have ZERO conclusions to offer at present but want to be of help. Both Amsterdam and Tchoupi are groping towards a consensus, I feel that others may soon share. These videos are proof of foul play provided they can be substantiated well.

            Feel free to post to the flickr pages if you don’t want to clog this blog with speculation and back and forth on what I’ve posted on flickr. It’s just me trying to get my bearings and define our terminology for now.

            • I’ve updated the flickr set of east pool video photo interpretations. Still no conclusions, but I did find a “tell-tale” reflection that may sort out which direction car headlights are heading.

              I’m curious to hear feedback, and I’m also dying to hear if there can be a consensus on timing – if it is at all possible to sync the clubhouse videos with the NEN call recording even semi-accurately I’d say it’s a valuable tool the prosecution should (but likely may not) take advantage of.

            • Hi Willis
              Added two links to videos at the bottom of the page. Spliced the light events in sequence, added a real time clock, and the nen call. Looked at your photo’s but it is getting late here now, so I’ll take a closer look tomorrow. It does look interesting. I’ve concentrated mainly on the sequence of the events and the timeline.

    • @tchoupi & @ Jo
      “I don’t pray but hope your nephew is improving”

      Me neither but wish with all my heart for healing for all of you and your loved ones.

    • @tchoupi
      Says been off case for a week now.

      Your incredible work was recommended in a pro Z blog …maybe talk left but not sure.
      Does that make all your parts wiggle w/ delight? Very cool, actually.

  59. New topic. Steroid rage?
    GZ looks so much smaller now and even w/ MOM putting him in large suits to make him appear smaller, he is.. And him following TM is out of his character since anger / no longer drinking class. There are no police reports of him fighting since 2006 or so. Frankly, you would have to be greatly impaired by booze or amped up to confront a teenager especially a male teen. It is seriously foolhardy & GZ is oddly fussy about his comfort needs on cell calls ( Yey, tomorrow is shower day, not warm enough, feeling chilly, extra blanket-not even pretending to be macho-asks John ” am I bleeding”, asks for Kleenex & water at every chance) he is very focused on his care.IMHO a little bit on the sissy side as to self preservation for a man his age.

    Anyone else thinking steroid rage? They wouldn’t show up in medical records so probably just me obsessing. But would love to hear what you young men think about this?

    • Do steroids impair judgement? GZ is all over the map. I’ve come to the conclusion that his odd answers are due to the fact that he interprets things in strange ways; as if his intuition has gone haywire. On Dr. Phil they were saying GZ thought “Do you still want an officer to come out?” meant go search for the kid. “Why you following me?” to George meant “You got a problem?” and many other mistakes.

      Or maybe he is just lying. When I was little and did bad stuff and lied about it, there were always adults who could see right through me. The grownups would call me out and make me see the error of my ways. Didn’t matter if it was at school, at church, or at home. That was not in Florida.

      Steroids? He looks like a completely different person now.

      • I think he is just lying. He probably always wanted to lose the fat and after the initial pouring in of “other people’s money”, he could afford to fast-track his body remolding.

      • @ Jay, you said: “I’ve come to the conclusion that his odd answers are due to the fact that he interprets things in strange ways; as if his intuition has gone haywire…Or maybe he is just lying.” ***
        BOTH wacky “intuition”, AND he’s lying. On the show, Osterman was saying “in his mind, he was thinking….” Understanding GZ’s “interpretations” means understanding his mindset. He was in pseudocop mode that night. Unlike his previous NEN calls where he said “I don’t want to approach him personally”, in the call about TM, he had no fear and with a gun in tow. He’s gonna argue that Seans questions of “OK, let me know if he’s doing anything else” and “He’s running? Which way is he running?” to mean “get to where you can see him.” The very FACT that he’s a NW watch captain, and had made numerous calls before where he did not engage the “suspect” says that he knew very well not what to do. Instead, he chose that night to tail TM like an undercover cop, except he’s NOT one.

      • Almost all of the “i was directed by dispatch to move in order to maintain visual” can be traced to GZ’s efforts to obscure, omit and obfuscate his movements from clubhouse to Cut thru area. He told a “little white lie” about parking in the clubhouse parking lot (never happened) and then Singleton caught him in it very quickly and produced a map for the second interview, pointing out that his rushed first story skipped the fact that TM would have had to walk past him at least once before the two were near the cut thru. This is where GZ starts making up the idea that he was instructed to move by the dispatcher. In the FIRST telling of this phony instruction, GZ says it as the reason he left his truck and took off on foot following the teen. Then, when he’s given the map he conflates the two incidents trying to amend the tale to why he moved his truck from the clubhouse parking lot. That’s why he ends up (in the “recreation” walk thru video, for instance) needing to claim he was told TWICE to move to maintain visual.

        He worked very hard to leave out the idea that he drove his car down TTL behind the teen and that this is why Trayvon ran away from him and ran away from the roadway, as Dee Dee confirms in the Crump interview. Also keep in mind that GZ never volunteered the idea that Trayvon ran away at all until he was prompted by investigators, and that but for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known that TM ran away at all. This is what he was trying to hide and this is why he invented the lies about being “told” to move. He’s trying desperately to hide the fact that he pursued the teen with both car and on foot. His later pattern of suspicious statements about “Returning to)wards) his vehicle” fit into the same pattern of lies – omission, obfuscation and mis-direction but are not as easily proven 100% false given the lack of witnesses and the confusion of the “missing minutes” which George mischaracterizes as “less than 30 seconds” and explains as time he spent at RVC banging on his black tactical flashlight.

        In other words, the simplest explanation for GZs’s statements about being directed to move is that GZ is a poor liar who is covering up disturbing and illegal behavior that’s part of the depraved mindset he exhibited that night when he profiled, pursued and shot an unarmed teen, later lying to investigators about the behavior.

    • Hmm.. IMO, Zimmerman is very focused on blood being drawn to justify his violence against another. I don’t think Zimmerman is a caring person. He using blood being drawn to justify his reactions. Zimmerman sees red and takes it to a whole other level.

      • @common sense for change says
        ” I don’t think GZ is a caring person.

        No, listening to his calls he is 100% for his own care..nothing for Shelly, sister, or bro-in law. He is a very serious sociopath & his behavior will increase to even more dangerous events. I meant his caring/ fussiness/ concern for himself seems at odds with his impulsive reckless rage out of the blue on 2/26. He had those behaviors in his past but maybe due to no longer drinking, that had stopped. I am referring to the aggressive rage act-if steroid rage would be the precipitating cause? He does look so different and he wasn’t fat like he was in 2005 mug shot-more muscular in 2012 police pixs.

        I’m a clinical social worker so figuring out human behavior intrigues me–like the intricate tech stuff does you brainiacs. No blood work, of course, so unless there’s a plea deal offered to Shelley (I think that’s what perjury charge is all about-state went looking to get her to testify against him) or if they can subpoena his charge records before 2/26 we may never know.

        There is a reason he became so overtly violent that night and has nothing to do with Trayvon or neighborhood watch or being fed up w burgularies. He had kept a lid on his fury.

        • The person we hear in the nen call, does sound very different than the whiny guy in the interviews.

          • @ Amsterdam
            Says:”the person we hear in the calls does sound very different than the whiny guy in the interviews.

            Exactly & more to my Roid Rage question-He sounds very different in his 2/26 NEN than he does in ALL of his 46 previous NEN calls where he has no reason to be a Mr. milquetoast. A blogger way back in beginning postulated jokingly if the guy in the interviews was the same guy who called in 2/26.” Add that with big change in body size??

            I know prosecution doesn’t have to prove motive but if they uncovered steroid use to explain his motive for his “those assholes…f**ing punks…getting my gun pissed off actions as motive for exiting his truck,following & then shooting TM his goose is cooked. They probably can’t get proof w/o Shellie’s cooperation so that’s where perjury charge comes in. Alot of times they will show spouses proof of affairs to get this type of needed info but didn’t have any girlfriends to use.

            Another subject..watched the Fox interview( ugh) MO said GZ certainly was knowledgeable in SYG–went into detail of how it’s taught in gun class. I’ll bet MOM is in hissytown. Oh snap, didn’t poor George tell Hannity he had no prior knowledge of this law?

            • I am a bit puzzled as to why GZ called police. Bet he wishes he hadn’t. I mean that NEN call is a thorn in his flesh. Corey and staff used it for GZ’s profiling, depraved mind, and lying later. Depending what turns out to be most important to the jury, that call could hang the man.

              I aim to study without GZ’s other inputs. After figuring out what really happened I will probably go through George’s lies again. Psychologist experts can show us when George is lying in videos based on nervous tics, Freudian slips, double clutching on rehearsed lines, and the like. This will further help to straighten out the story.

  60. Black and White.

    I’d like to approach the Who’s-On-Top subject. John w6 definitely places Trayvon on top. Notice black in a black shirt/hoodie. Even when they shift to the sidewalk (unlike GZ’s claim that he shifted to grass) w6 leaves them with the black shirted guy on top. This is around 7:16:00. A bit later w3 sees a white shirt on top. Not just any kind of shirt: a tee-shirt. That’s pretty specific. Whiter man in a poppin’ white shirt? Point: that’s not Trayvon.

    When was this? Seems to me that sometime between when w6 left them, within about 20 seconds when w3 looks down and sees them, their positions have reversed. I’m thinking that GZ had been on his back. But by 7:16:16 GZ is on top and Trayvon is on his back. This correlates to when the “Help” screams become clear. John w6 told us that GZ was struggling and probably attempting to get up. I could see the gun coming out easily as GZ gets Trayvon down. Only other way is if it had been out before the struggle started.

    “On Top” has a little different meaning after the gunshot. George is on top as soon as witnesses 5, 6, and 12 look out. But he is standing over Trayvon. Does anybody ever see Trayvon on top again? If what I said above was the major change point then Trayvon was shot on the ground. There would be no need to do anything like move the body or wiggle out from under it. When the three ladies see them just seconds after the shot GZ is standing directly over Trayvon straddling him with both feet. Eerie…

    • I agree that the fight was dynamic and the only time TM was placed on top was when W6 ducked his head out for a second. I took the “white T-shirt” to just mean that it was a small white patch of color that the female witness saw that popped out in the night. As in she couldn’t see the arms, so she called it a T shirt. But if GZ was on top then she wouldn’t have described the back of his darker jacket as a T shirt. She may have seen GZ on his side or back (so she saw his light grey shirt as white). If so TM was not hovering over him at that point. Since it’s the only color she saw, I’m not sure if her depth perception would have been good enough in that lighting to tell if the “T-shirt” was on top of another body or not, so I’d have to rule out her positioning in that regard. Let’s also remember that TM had light colored pants on, but I’m not sure if that would be mistaken for a T-shirt.

      • It’s an odd thing to contemplate, but the loose dog belonging to Austin was white. Could the dog have been mistaken for a T shirt of a man on the ground? (other thought there was a dog fight, too at first. I think it was W11 or the spouse that floated that idea.) Austin doesn’t offer that the dog ran over to the fighting men, ever but neither does he say where the dog ran when it got off it’s leash, only that this caused him NOT to see the men for a bit after he had already determined something was happening.

        Studies show that eyewitnesses are just plain wrong a lot of the time. The white T shirt may mean nothing at all.

        Austin was very close to the two men. In the photo he posed for the press, I’d estimate his distance from where the shell casing was found as less than 30 feet away. He’s also one of the few who wasn’t looking through glass – maybe the only one before the shot was fired to have such a close view.

        • Here’s the link to the picture Austin posed for showing his location, along with an estimate of where that is on an aerial photo.

          13yoBoyMap first estimate.  (needs slight revision)

          Keep in mind however that from his vantage point, the men were dark figures against a darkened background, as opposed to what, say w13 may have seen later as the figures from his house would be backlit by John’s porchlight/ patio area.

          Also keep in mind how VERY dark it was outside. Television news video cameras shot the scene when every porch light was on and several cop cars tried to shine lights onto the scene in addition to any lights the TV station may have added and it’s STILL pretty dark in that dog walk.


          This is a brightened-in-photoshop flash photo taken by police with a powerful flash unit on a film camera probably using 800 ASA film. Look behind the yellow tarp covering Trayvon’s dead body into the area towards Brandy Green’s home and you will see that even the white fences barely have any light on them to reflect back to camera. I can’t emphasize this more – it was DARK out.

          Here’s a helicopter video camera’s frame grab, gain-booster to the point it’s falling apart seemingly taken before the cop cars were pulled onto the grass to shine headlights onto the crime scene – it’s pitch black back there almost.

          pseudo ridgelone heli3

        • A conjecture on my part:
          It would make Austin’s situation completely understandable if he had been right there when the gunshot went off.

          This would explain why his dog bolted away. His mother says he was hysterical when she arrived. He is deeply guilt ridden. He acted out at school. Mom hired a lawyer.

          Austin says otherwise. He is careful not to mention a gun or a gunshot. It was just a loud noise.

          He thought there was only one person on the ground. Not clear if he saw from the top (with one on top) or from the side (with them laying on sides). When Serino gave him a choice of red, white, or black, Austin chose red. Mom and lawyer got him to say later that he couldn’t see any color.

          I think this dog could be important. Not sure how. John w6 says his first thought was it might have been a dog attack. W12 says she first heard a loud dog howl which she ignored. W19 had her dog out on the back porch and he was barking his head off, pulling to get into the fight.

  61. I haven’t finished with witness 12 yet. But I got a few new ideas from her today.

    She mentions the time 7:10. That could mean she noticed the running at about 7:11:40 (w6 says the first noises were 5 minutes before the shot) (w1 says “They were running in the back.”)

    W12 says the vocalizations got “louder” which could mean they were getting closer. Not sure when this was but it could fit with the argument and scuffle coming around w11’s house coming east in the direction of w12/w13’s house.

    On her second look she sees “shadow”. I think she must mean silhouettes. A porch light across the way, behind the two men would cause both. GZ was standing over Trayvon at that time.

    Witness 12 was looking out at the same time Selma was. She sees Selma ask GZ if he wants them to call 911. She would have witnessed GZ walking away from the body. She then sees her husband w13 get out there and talk with GZ. W13 is fearless in the face of this shooting but w12 wants him back inside. She never goes out back the whole evening.

    There seems to be another flashlight just before w13 comes out with his. There are two flashlights before the police arrive in the back yard. Near the end of one of w12’s interviews w13 says, “It’s so dark back there. There’s no light unless somebody turns their patio light on. And I know we had ours off. We didn’t have… she didn’t turn it on until the police got there. I know the one neighbor probably didn’t turn there’s on until somebody came out with a flashlight.” He seems to be talking about another ?neighbor? with a flashlight other than himself. Who could it be?

    • Could the second someone with a flashlight, prior to ofc Tim Smith’s arrival actually be GZ himself, with his keychain flashlight? It seems doubtful but there is that theory that GZ walked north to “plant” his keychain flashlight as a false trail for him to claim the fight started up by the T.

      IMO he’s capable of such foul play but what makes me doubt it is the speed at which he would be setting up a false trail and building his false narrative. Seconds after shooting someone dead, he’d be very quick to be covering his tracks, wouldn’t he?

      Anyway, it has to be considered as one of several possibilities.

      Another possibility is that the witness was simply mistaken. W13 had a flashlight and an iPhone 4, which has a flash for the camera and the ability to create a beam of light just from the screen itself. The picture of the bloody head seems to be a flash photo, as do the other two shots W13 took with it.

      • Could flashlight one be GZ with his larger tactical flashlight? I’ll have to do more study but I think Smith gets to the back yard area a couple minutes later sometime in the 7:19 minute.

    • That sneaky devil Bernie de la Rionda got witness 12 to say GZ was on top of Trayvon before the shot.

      de la Rionda: And you looked out… did you see… when you first looked out were the people standing up or on the ground?

      W12: At first, I couldn’t see anything. It was dark.

      de la Rionda: Okay.

      W12: The second time I looked… I looked so many times outside I don’t know which one is which.

      de la Rionda: Right. No. That’s fine.

      W12: But I know when I first… what I remember is, it was too dark. And then a guy was on top of another guy…

      de la Rionda: Okay.

      W12: …and the shot.

      de la Rionda: Okay. So the shot was after you first saw somebody on top of another guy?

      W12: Uh huh.

  62. In seeing TM’s father on the Dr. Phil show talk about his guilt for not being there to take the bullet, I thought of a quote from Old Rose in the movie TItanic about the survivors of the tragedy.
    “Wait to die…
    Wait to live…
    Wait for an absolution…That would never come”

    It’s heartbreaking to see him be in such pain from misplaced guilt. I hope he’ll find peace someday.

  63. Oh my, here’s another Fox interview (this time with Osterman) that can be entered into evidence! Didn’t GZ deny ever hearing about SYG on Sean Hannity? Listen to what MO had to say here about that, his relationship to Chief Lee, being George’s token white friend and the massive rally that GZ could have held with all of his black friends.

  64. I have made a compilation of the clubhouse videos. I begin at.20:20 into the kitchen video.
    These are the clips I used:
    20:20:00 to 20:50:10 Kitchen
    20:50:10 to 22:00:00 Game Room
    22:00:01 to 22:49:03 Eastpool Hall
    22:49:04 to 23:40:07 Eastpool
    23:40:08 to 23:43:00 Eastpool Hall
    23:43:01 to 27:18:03 Eastpool
    27:18:04 to 27:21:05 Eastpool Hall
    27:21:06 to 31:01:01 Game Room
    31:01:02 to 31:11:04 Eastpool Hall
    31:11:05 to 31:14:04 Eastpool
    31:14:05 to end Game room

    I used the same compilation to make 2 videos. One with a clock that has the clubhouse videos start time at 6:46:17 pm. That is the time Tchoupi arrived at.
    The other one has a clock with the clubhouse videos start time of 6:48:00 pm. I got that time using the time stamps included with the video, which began at 6:30 pm + the 18 min mentionend the clock was off, in page 87 of the second document dump.

    I’ve added audio tracks. Zimmermans nen call at 7:09:34, and w18’s 911 call, estimated by tchoupi to begin at 7:17:06.

    These videos are to help broaden the discussion. I don’t think the time is exactly right in either one of the videos.

    I will add two posts with the two videos.

  65. OK, so GZ says he carries his gun wherever he goes, even grocery runs to Target. But where did the ‘tactical’ flashlight come from? It had to have been in the truck, and in a handy location for him to grab it quickly as he saw TM start running. If he keeps it in the truck all the time, it probably wouldn’t be out and ready-to-grab, but tucked away in some storage spot. And if you do keep a flashlight in a truck for emergencies and what not, it’s probably not one of those ‘tactical’ jobs, exactly because their size and shape makes them awkward to stow in a vehicle. So i think this is just one more little indication that GZ left his house prepared to look for a target, not shop at Target.

    • GZ had a cell phone in one hand.
      He had to grab his car key (unless he already took it with him before).
      He had to open and shut the door.
      Finally, he had to grab his flashlight (unless he already had it with him).

      I believe he had his flashlight with him. I believe he was equipped before he left home. There was that article reporting about that neighbor saying that GZ was taking his NW job seriously enough to walk around in the neighborhood with his flashlight.

  66. This video uses a start time of the videos at 6:46:17. This Thoupi’s estimated begin time.

    I didn’t use the first 20:20 seconds of the video,
    I am using the real time as displayed in the video.

    7:07:04 A car that could be Zimmerman’s truck passes by the kitchen window.
    Video cuts to gameroom and shows the car passing by. Check Tchoupi’s site to get an explanation of the light events that can be seen.

    7:08:16 video cuts to the eastpoolhall.
    7:08:26 a car passes the mail area
    7:08:45 lights can be seen in the eastpoolhall video
    7:09:00 cut to eastpool where rearlights can be seen of a car moving east on TTL.
    7:09:44 Headlights of a car moving west on TTL can be seen.
    7:09:51 Cut to eastpoolhall where a car can be seen moving past the mailarea going north.
    7:09:53 Back to eastpool
    7:13:20 Headlights can be seen of a car driving west on TTL
    7:13:30 Car passes by mailarea in eastpoolhall video
    7:13:32 Back to game room. For timing purposes arrival police and emergency vehicles.

    Clubhouse Videos compilation with real time clock and audio call Zimmerman and witness 18 Part 1 from mirre on Vimeo.

  67. This video uses a start time of the videos at 6:48:00.

    I didn’t use the first 20:20 seconds of the video,
    I am using the real time as displayed in the video.

    7:08:47 A car that could be Zimmerman’s truck passes by the kitchen window.
    Video cuts to gameroom and shows the car passing by. Check Tchoupi’s site to get an explanation of the light events that can be seen.

    7:10:00 video cuts to the eastpoolhall.
    7:10:11 a car passes the mail area
    7:10:28 lights can be seen in the eastpoolhall video
    7:10:44 cut to eastpool where rearlights can be seen of a car moving east on TTL.
    7:11:28 Headlights of a car moving west on TTL can be seen.
    7:11:36 Cut to eastpoolhall where a car can be seen moving past the mailarea going north.
    7:11:37 Back to eastpool
    7:15:02 Headlights can be seen of a car driving west on TTL
    7:15:14 Car passes by mailarea in eastpoolhall video
    7:15:16 Back to game room. For timing purposes arrival police and emergency vehicles.

    Clubhouse Videos compilation with real time clock beginning at 6:48 with audio zimmerman and w18 part 2 from mirre on Vimeo.

    • Hi Amsterdam, thanks for this. I don’t know if you’re done editing it, but you should email NLME to have him put this video on his most recent post with all of the other commenter’s links for easy access.

      • Hi was so interesting,
        These are first drafts. I still don’t think the timing is right. I think the nen call may have started later. GZ said it took some time to get through, so I’m not sure whether the connection time is the time the audio began or he was on hold at that time.
        I am hoping we Will find out about that in the next document dump.

        I would love some feedback to improve video.

        • I’d like to see the east pool video at the point Tim smith seems to arrive and have as a sync point the audio of the witness who saw him arrive.

          Also as a general question: do we know for certain if and how the various clubhouse video angles are in sync with one another?

          Lastly, what do you think the parameters are for finding a sync point between sound and picture? The audio has a connection time and possibly a different tine for when the two start to actually converse. The picture has the 16-18 minute problem of the wrong time stamp. How far can we shift picture and audio forward and back before we are past the point of reasonable guesses?

          • Hi Willisnewton,

            I am waiting for todays document dump to add w3 to the video. The 6:48 time comes from the evidence, the only reason we still have some doubt is the arrival of Smith. When I use the 6:48 time, the policecar driving down TTL, would allign with Ayala’s arrival. There is a car arriving at the frontgate that would match up with Smith, however that car appears to turn right on RVC.

            The camera’s appear to be in synch, if you look at the sequence of the different light events. A car is seen near the frontgate, next a car can be seen passing the eph, and immediately following that you can see the rearlights in the ep video. So I am quite confident the videos are in synch.

            I am hoping todays dump may give us a more information about the 911 calls and the nen.
            The conversation in the nen call could have started as much as 24 sec after the connection time. At 1:14 into the call, Sean has all the information contained in the creation time entry. I think I may have heard him hitting the enter key at that time. I am not absolutely sure about that. Maybe people want to listen to that part of the nen call again and let me know what they think.

            If I subtract the 1:14 from the creation time, it gives me start time of 7:09:58. So the conversation begins anywhere between 7:09:34 and 7:09:58.

        • There is a w18 unredacted 911 call here:

          Don’t know if you can use the YouTube format. I think this one is pretty clean for timing.

          • Thanks Jay,

            That is a good one. I’ve downloaded it and have extracted the audio, so I definitely can use it.
            If you know of a clean one for w3, that would be great.

            • This is from whonose (Teeslaw). Witness 3 is second:

              I believe the w3 and w11 YouTubes that whonose posted are correct. They are redacted but have silence instead of deleted cuts. Their critical events seem right. And what really convinced me was they are nice and long -longer than the chopped ones others have posted.

          • “he just said he shot him dead” about 3.20. Didn’t GZ say he never thought he was seriously injured. Maybe conjecture from witness but i still don’t understand how GZ could say he had no idea trayvon was seriously injured, i guess he forgot he got up and walked around while his victim remained motionless on the grass.

            • she heard talking, she heard arguing, they were talking or wrestling. I know u guys have gone over the witnesses thoroughly but i haven’t heard this for a long time and she totally blows GZ’s version of events out of the water. Anyone else smell the roast pork burning?

    • The one that starts at 6:48:00 seems to be a failed experiment in syncing the audio with the picture. The other seems like it might be close.

      Thanks for doing this. I’d tried to examine the same using the “cowboy method” of playing two you tube vids at the same time but that wasn’t very scientific.

      Of course I would love it if you could see the vehicle behaving in the manner I think it did – pulling up to the first corner in TTL after the initial U turn and then turning round again after “these axxholes always get away” but the blind spot caused by that large “constant flare” makes it very difficult to tel for sure what is happening on TTL.

      What cannot be denied is that cars are seen moving up and down TTL at certain times of the night. If one were to work backwards from the witness who describes Tim Smith’s arrival from their upstairs window that might be the closest we will get.

      Also, I think the video shows quite well that GZ never parked in the clubhouse parking lot, and his likely slow trolling by the mailbox kiosk.

      But let’s face it, you can’t ever see TM near the mail kiosk, and you can’t see GZ chasing TM on foot or with his car well enough for a jury to feel this is the case beyond a reasonable doubt and that’s frustrating. Also, it doesn’t seem like the prosecution is pursuing this video evidence as a trial strategy as far as I can tell.

      And yet…. I still want to dig into this as far as it can be dug into and see if we can’t reach a consensus opinion on what IS there. Because it’s proof of plenty, I feel.

      There are reasons you can’t see what I said above – and they don’t yet include any proof that the guilty theories are at all wrong. Trayvon’s path was marked on a map by GZ as going thru the grass it seems, and for that reason we wouldnt see him ever – he’s wearing dark clothes anyway.

      GZ seemingly can’t be seen making a second U turn from the first corner of TTL but if his lights were off, he may be semi invisible on this crummy video.

      It’s also possible GZ drove behind TM in reverse and was always in the northern most lane of TTL and thus hidden in the blind spot. It’s just not the clear picture we’d like to see… so frustrating.

    • This is excellent Amsterdam. Bravo.

      During the past couple of days, I’ve entertained the possibility that the videos starts at 6:48 rather than between 6:46:00 & 6:46:30, and I still hit the same wall that is Wit #3 witnessing LEO T. Smith from her front bedroom on 1231 TTL. Maybe you should make another version of your video where W18 is replaced with W03. That may help putting that wall down.

      That said, if the vids really start at 6:48 then I agree with the point that GZ must have spotted TM from the RVC/TTL junction while driving east by the clubhouse. Then he drove back west on RVC and then east again before turning south on TTL soon after connecting with dispatcher Sean.

      The other point you’re making is that GZ never made a u-turn on TTL to face the clubhouse. You base that claim on a light event seen on the EPH vid right after a car is seen on the EP vid moving toward the north gate.
      I’m not convinced that this light event is that of car going north. I’ll try to find the correlation work I did a few month ago and distribute it. Although I may have been wrong, my conclusion was that this event differs from that of other cars by the size, brightness and height of the light spot. I also remember that it looks more like another light event that could not be associated with any car moving on TTL (cf. correlation table at 34:34). The light event @ 34:34 consisted in a faded & lower to the ground spot right before a brighted spot. Since there was no car on TTL, I had to conclude that the light source could only be coming from further back on RVC across the T. In other words, it could possibly be LEO Ayala parking there. So, the light event that you attribute to a car going north, is one that I considered being just the reflection on the road of GZ’s truck parked on TTL.
      Again, I may have been wrong and I can understand why. If that’s the case then we have something really really big here. Indeed, there was someone driving where GZ was parked at about the time GZ started his foot chasing of TM. If that’s what happened then lets open the 2012 witness hunting season.

      Thanks again for your great work

      • Thanks Tchoupi,

        That means a lot coming from you. I was working of your correlation table. I don’t think I could have done it without that.

        When I first started looking at these videos, I used the same light event as you do for the arrival of Smith. I just didn’t think it worked, and I started working with the 29 min arrival until you pointed out that that car turned right on RVC. I went back to 6:48 again after I found out about the timestamps and that the clock was 18 min slow.

        I don’t know what to do with w3’s statement about when and where she first saw the police, other than that Smith’s path was not going south on TTL, but taking a right on RVC when he first arrived, and when redirected, continued to drive west on RVC and arrived at TTL from the other side.
        I don’t know how that would work timewise.
        I assume the police uses gps to find an address, maybe someone can tell us, when a system relying on GPS will direct someone to make a uturn, rather than continuing on a road that is a circle.

        I believe that the latest evidence dump, will be released to the public today. It should include details about the 911 calls and the nen. I would love to include w3’s 911 call. If someone can direct me to a link that has an unedited version, I will definitely add that to the video.

        I agree that if the 6:48 time is correct, the car driving west on TTL at the time GZ was about to do his footchase is big. I really don’t think that too many people living in that community, would use that route to drive to leave the complex. Probably the people living south of w3 and maybe some who live on Long Oak way.

        That car made me believe a second car may have been involved. It reminded me of Taaffe’s interview where he describes Zimmerman’s car as facing towards the clubhouse instead of facing the T. Speculation of course. I’ve been trying to see if there is an indication that that car left the front gate. Maybe you could enlighten me on that point.

        There is also the car driving west on TTL around 27 min on the video. If the 6:48 time is correct, that would have been about 30 sec to a min before GZ ran into Trayvon again, so I would also be very interested to find out who that person was.

        I checked the 34:34 light event, and I agree, that looks more like the 22:33 lights. It is more diffuse, so it may have been further away. Closer to the T or even RVC.
        If the 6:48 time is correct, that could even have been Raimondo. Raimondo began cpr at 7:23.

        Let’s wait for the document dump, and then decide what changes to make to the video.

        • “I see a policeman now.” Witness 3 was very scared and glued to the front window searching for the cavalry to save her. She could have said this when blue flashing lights first approached, while the car was still outside the gate. Or it could have been sometime after Smith drove in. I’d ask her in trial.

          I posted whonoses’ YouTube link to the w11 and w3 recording. I think that has the correct timing.

          It’s not clear to me whether w3 would have gone downstairs and answered the door. If her address had been given for the shooting I don’t know why Smith was redirected to w5? w19? But he was. I’m getting the sense that Mary Cutcher is very convincing/influential. [I’d like to see a debate between Cutcher and Zimmerman.] Those on RVC seem to think the event happened on their side of the sidewalk. W12 says, “I saw the two shadow close to our patio.” What? I notice the slope of the ground toward TTL and I think most of the romping around and falling was west of the center sidewalk.

          Smith kept on driving around, parked on RVC, and walked in on the sidewalk by 2861 RVC as w13 had. This wasted a couple of precious minutes.

          • Smith has an arrival time on the GZ call log for 9:17:11. He is dispatched on the w3 call at 9:17:36. That is 25 sec before his non emergency call changed to an emergency call. Maybe he just started patrolling the area.

          • W3 called at 7:16:41. This is confirmed by the latest discovery released today.
            So, the timing I was giving is the correct. In other words, she saw police from her front bedroom upstairs at 7:17:41. She specifically said “I see police now […] but like it’s behind the house […] it’s not the front entrance.”.
            Her location is known from her interviews. She stated that after hearing and seeing from her back bedroom she locked herself in the other room before the gunshot. There only are 2 bedrooms in her townhouse. So, the other room (she actually calls it an office) can only be the front bedroom with view on TTL.
            So, the question is where did she saw police exactly?
            It sounds to me that she sees police at her front entrance and that she indicates that LEO must go behind her house.
            What are your thoughts?

            • Maybe we can establish when ofc. Raimondo arrived. He is the third officer, and was driving the first car that turned left on RVC, which he specifically states in his narrative. He has one clear arrival time unlike Smith and Ayala. We may be able to work backwards from that.

            • I think I’d like a recorded interview with Smith. It looks like he pulls in the main gate and w3 sees him out there at 7:17:41 and tells dispatch she sees him. He would have already been given her address. The number 1231 would be easy to spot on her house with a police car flood light. So, Smith stops his car in front of her house.

              At about 7:18:00 the dispatcher asks her, “Okay, and do you see the officer?” meaning see his car at her house.

              W3 answers, “Yeah but, like it’s behind the houses.” She’s kicking herself that she didn’t tell them the shooting was in back. She’s frustrated that Smith is in the wrong place and wasting time. She’s still freaking out.

              Why the officer doesn’t do the simple thing and walk around the building, I don’t know. I mean, w3 told them her address, that there was a gunshot, and that it was in the back. Instead he drives away. I’m sure there is a good explanation.

    • He’s barred by the bond order from carrying. Has he contested that, yet?

      • @QETNO, Wait, really? When GZ was arrested the 2nd time, they “secured” the gun that MO gave him, but I didn’t see in the new bond order (last page) or read any reports about GZ’s permit being suspended or him specifically being barred from carrying another weapon.

        • I’m not sure what’s going on with his permit, but I believe he should still be barred from possessing a weapon while out on bond. I’m a bit confused as to why it’s not listed in the 2nd bond order, but it was definitely stated in the first. I wouldn’t think they’d lift that condition considering he’s pending trial for a felony with a firearm. *shrug* Could be wrong…I’m wrong a lot. I don’t like to admit it, but I am, lol.

    • @wsi says
      state moves to suspend Shelly’s gun why not GZ?

      Have to be a convicted felon before losing gun rights. They are squeezing her w/ anything they can–does not concern the state that their motion will be denied. They mean to win & driving up a spouses legal costs is a tool. This is how our adversarial system works.
      Motion to suspend Shelly’s gun permit. What is that about?

      Need to strengthen case. DNA is good, NEN yes but witnesses are both good and not so much. We need Shelly!s inside info but she’s not flipping on her spouse. So they charge her w/ perjury, still not cooperating, next step add motions whether legal or not. The state will pile it on until she breaks. That’s why her attorney filed for a continuance- she needs more time to convince Shelly she has a future life and it’s time, baby, it’s time for you to give in so the torture will cease. We lost Casey Anthony case and, by god, ain’t goin happen again – at lease not as soon.

      The above is in no way pro GZ, but it’s a good take away for us. How the State Wins 99% of the time. If you want to see it truly down& dirty, read what the FBI did to Monica Lewinsky’s mother & Monica Lowensky herself. Arrested her with guns in a shopping center, would not let her call her mother, kept her in a small room for hours. This is example of what white wealthy defendants encounter.(see Wiki or book …hmm, was it called The Thin Blue Dress?) 🙂
      An example of poor Black defendants, watch Murder On A Sunday Morning ( won academy award for best docu in 2001). That young man wouldn’t plead guilty at interrogation. They called a cop to come in to take him out in woods and beat a confession. The cop was the sheriff’s son, nat glover. ( a very beloved man, actually) Nat ran for Jax. Mayor but Jax.hadn’t progressed that far. I think all of it is viewable on you tube but broken into parts. It’s just excellent and the public defenders are as good as they come. Their case was a slam dunk, jury came back with not guilty in 45 mn. But watching Pat McGuiness ask one of the detectives if he’s a smoker because “personally, I always enjoy a cigarette after screwing someone”. All cops went to prison, real murdered confessed but Brenton Butler will never be the same.

      Seems to me Sanford is Jax. 11 yrs. ago and it took a horrific murder to move a small central Fl. Town Into 21st. Century.

  68. “Sheeple = People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own.”

    This was a comment on OS made by someone hard for GZ to describe TM supporters.

    Hm, a funny statement from one of the crowd that talks like parrots. “George said…” “George’s father said…” “John said…”

    Wait, who can’t do the thinking?

    • “Bizarro world is all I can say.” — Quoted from CSFC.
      When I was trolling over at the nuthouse to get the scoop on crazy OG lady and MO’s book, it really was amusing to read some of their comments (the ones I wasn’t actually gagging/disgusted over anyway) about how that’s the only place to get “facts”. It’s a cult-like mindset that you just can’t break.

      • Gotta love the ride down the rabbit hole. Btw, do you happen to know if the full GZ reenactment still exists on the net? Am I just crazy, or did Zimmerman not admit to falling at the T before he ever mentioned anything about TM? I’m pretty sure that was said then the full tape got wiped from the net.

          • Thanks, Loree! I believe the reenactment was longer than this vid tho. Anyone else getting overwhelmed with this case?

            • Yes, I was doing so good at the begining, now I can’t keep up…..

              will check my files on a longer version brb

            • I feel like the longest version I saw was somewhere between 15-20minutes. Now, when I do go back to the vid, it just feels like there’s parts missing. I appreciate you looking for me. I haven’t been able to find anything longer than this vid you posted above.

            • the only other place I found is Axiom Amnesia / audio video gz police statements, but you have to download the DIVX player

        • @QETNO, I think it’s the full re-enactment. 15 min long. Just has an annoying commercial you gotta watch.

          • @wsi says think this is longer reenactment
            Here is link also

            I watched beginning.. Two thoughts

            1) his second sentence says “called NEN because this house (points to house) left their window open & door unlocked. So how does a neighbor know someone’s door is UNLOCKED ( he doesn’t say OPEN)? And why do you call on an opened window? I do know report was unfounded but it’s an odd report to make

            2) there are no windows in front for TM to ” leisurely look into” there is a small window on the front of every second or third town home.

            Serino knew TM belonged in this neighborhood at this walk through but regardless a seasoned detective would be wondering what’s up w/ this guy?

            • @2dogsonly, in his previous NEN call it was about the pajama pants guy, and he may have seen an open window but he would only have known about the open door after the cops came and secured the house.

              Notice that he says first that TM was standing in the grass between the two poles. If you look at the poles, they’re about a feet away from the sidewalk. However, when the cop driving the car asked him again where TM was standing, GZ points “right over there” and the cop says “right in front of the car”? GZ says “yeah, in the grassy area” From the camera angle at that point, it makes it look like he was indicating the grassy area closer to the house.

              Also notice that he starts to say “he kept staring at me, looking around, to see who else was….I don’t know why he was looking” Um, could it be that TM was looking around behind him to see if it was somebody or something else GZ was STARING at possibly?????? What a dope!

            • Another thing wrong with this walk through. TM’s timeline has him reaching the mailboxes in just 13 minutes of walking at 4.4 ft/sec. arriving there at 6:42:19, or sooner if he hustled because of the rain. TM has only a 2 minute 8 second walk home from the mailboxes. So, if he was continuously walking, as GZ says, then he’d have been home by roughly 6:44:23. Or long before GZ even started his NEN call at 7:11pm.

              GZ’s “continuous motion” narrative dis-includes about 12 or so minutes he had to wait, for TM to emerge from the shelter of the mailboxes.

              Because we know TM sheltered at the mailboxes for ~12 minutes, if he’s moving when GZ sees him “he’s coming towards me”, GZ is there 12 minutes late. Too late to have seen TM at the cut through. He can only have seen TM, either at the cut through or at the mailboxes, but not in both places, if he thinks TM is continuously walking. Since it’s silly to think that GZ would miss having waited 12 minutes at the mailboxes, it’s more likely that he actually missed TM at the cut through, and only thinks TM was continuously walking, because TM emerged from the mailboxes, almost as soon as GZ arrived there at around 7:11 pm.

            • Apparently GZ doesn’t know about TM taking shelter for 12 or more minutes at the mailboxes. He thinks that TM moved continuously from the cut through at Taaffe’s and he caught up with him at the mailboxes. Not realizing that if TM had not sheltered, he would never have seen him at all, because he was only 2 minutes away from home.

              So, now let’s see, it take them only 30 seconds to drive from GZ’s house to the cut through and it’s another 15 seconds to the front gate. If Tchoupi’s analysis is correct, GZ only appears on the scene about 1 or 2 minutes before the NEN call starts and doesn’t realize that TM has been at the mailboxes already for some 12 minutes or more. This is going to completely screw up his narrative if the case goes to trial.

              So, GZ doesn’t really know where TM entered RATL. LLMpapa believes the swale by FT’s floods and should have forced TM to another cut through. But the timeline shows that TM could have easily made the front gate as well before closing. Only thing about LLMpapa’s theory is the grass in the swale shows no signs of being water stressed at the bottom, as it should if the swale floods. Nor does it seem likely that the start of a heavy rain would cause a flood so quickly. Then lastly, all of Florida is a sand bar, a very big sand bar, but a sand bar never-the-less. Sand drains pretty darned quick and is, therefore, slow to flood. Hardly a wonder then that the grass in the swale shows no signs of water stress. So, I think TM actually did use this route, because it runs close to the apartments where he could have sheltered, if the rain had caught him. It didn’t and so he kept moving. By the time it started to pour, he had an easy sprint to the mailboxes and didn’t get very wet.

              If Zimmerman is smart, he’d start planning to get one of those prized prison library jobs, now while he has a chance. (Guess I watch too much tv. 🙂

  69. Sorry, but I find that theory specious, at best. If he brought the flashlight from home he’d likely check it to see if it worked. Plus there are many sounds on the NEN tape that could be him opening glovebox, console, etc.

    Don’t get me wrong, however. I tend to believe he was called by a “tipoff man” and was not going grocery shopping. But I don’t yet know how to prove that to a jury other than by using the clubhouse video interpretations to say he never saw TM until he drove past the mail kiosk. There is also Dee Dee’s deposition/ interviews that place TM at the mail kiosk minutes earlier than GZ’s call and later false narrative placing TM by Frank Taafe’s house, but again these are hard to prove to a jury without the defense being able to introduce some “reasonable doubt” into some jury members’ minds.

    Guesswork about where he kept his flashlight is not helpful, IMO. There are better ways to convince a jury than that.

    Keep going, however! One thing this group is good at is turning over every stone to look for answers.

    • @ willis
      If you’re replying to my comment (plz use an @ since the threading breaks easily), I wasn’t necessarily thinking about hypotheses for the prosecution to present at trial, but I was thinking about my experience with flashlights. I have had any number of unreliable flashlights, that work sometimes and then don’t work other times. So I’ve often grabbed one of these flashlights, only to find out it doesn’t work at that moment, at which point i bang on it, which usually revives it, but sometimes doesn’t (or it comes on for a moment and goes by off).

      I also like to keep a flashlight in my car. But in any glovebox, pocket etc., there’s limited space, so I wouldn’t keep one of those long Mag-Lite things cops use there. I don’t know how long GZ’s flashlight is actually, whether it fits in a glovebox.?? It’s simply a question: if GZ had a flashlight (and he did) where did it come from? There seem to be only two possible answers: either he keeps it in his truck or he brought it from home. If he does keep it in his truck, well no big deal. If he doesn’t, that speaks to his intent when he left his house. I just wonder if the cops ever thought about that and asked him why he had a ‘tactical’ flashlight and where it came from.

      I am convinced though, that almost everyone is thinking about the key found near the T in the wrong light. That is, they are thinking of it as a key that just co-incidentally has a mini-flashlight attached, and i think it’s a mini-flashlight that co-incidentally has a key attached. I believe it is a ‘spare’ key to Shellie’s car. (Did they take this into evidence? Have they checked? Will they? Did GZ say what that key operates?) I think George put it in his pocket as he left the house exactly because it has the mini-flashlight on it, not because he needed the key for anything, and because he suspected his other flashlight (whether it was in his hand or in the truck at that point) might or might not work in the clutch.

      Again, the fact he had this in his possession PROVES nothing. he would just have to say, ‘well i usually have the extra key to Shellie’s car in my pocket, just in case I need to move it in the driveway or stuff like that.’ GZ can explain away a lot of the little oddities one by one. But collectively, when you add them all together, i think you get a more clear picture of what he was doing. And having a good hypothesis about what actually happened can help point to where one might find evidence to support it.

      • Yeah whonose that was my broken-thread reply. It was also a poorly though out reply by me. I get your logic now… Carry on..

  70. Does anyone have a link to the full Dr Phil episode with Mark Osterman? I have only been able to find the clips posted on his website and a couple clips on youtube but the posters are talking the whole time.

  71. @ tchoupi and amsterdam
    Have you guys established that the various clubhouse vids are in sync with each other? That is, do they all start at the same time, and the question is just what time that actually is? Because, if so, i can make a split screen Hi-Def video that shows up to four views simultaneously, which would display how the light events move between one camera position and another. (And if they don’t have the same start times, have you figured out the offsets between them, as opposed to the general offset against correct clock-time?)

  72. The docs WSI linked do contain a couple interesting bits…

    tchoupi and i both missed a couple of the 911 call assignments: most importantly JohnW6 called earlier than we thought. I’ve written a number of posts here and in forums where I accuse him of waiting an unusually long time before calling. I now apologize for my error, and retract any comments about a delay in his call to 911.

    The log of W3’s call contains all sorts of reports back from officers at the scene, not just info from her call. (It also seems to switch over to reference W18’s trauma at some point…?) But it notes, with time stamps, the officers identifying two vehicle tags. The plate numbers and names are redacted, but these would seem to be GZ’s truck and SZ’s car. At 8:32:39 they log the tag of a White Honda, and at 8:47:15 they log the tag of a Gray Honda. This suggests either that the two vehicles were not parked in the same area, or that the Gray car arrived later, and the police logged its tag after it arrived, having logged the tags of the vehicles already on the scene some 15 minutes earlier. But that wouldn’t tell us when in that interval the second car arrived, how long it sat there before police noticed it and recorded it.

    • The question still in my mind unanswered is did Shellie and / or Mark Osterman arrive in time to see/ speak with George before he was transported away?

      These late times, and the gap between them suggest that they arrived at least as early as 8:32, but out of course they could have been there much earlier, and most likely were given the time that GZ suggests Shellie was contacted, which was just as the first officer arrived more or less around 7:20.

      As for the 8:32 time, Cop writes it in a notebook, then enters it into the log later… and for all we know the car is gone by 8:32. At least now we know a bit more – I don’t doubt this is Shellie’s car and GZ’s Honda Ridgeline – I just wish we knew where they were spotted and when more precisely.

      Thanks for posting the info. There’s a lot here to dig through!

  73. obviously still scanning thru all this but here’s a first first impression.

    Starting with what is missing might be as good of a place as any to sort thru all this. There is a document on Corey’s letterhead I downloaded from this link above, the one from local TV news channel 9

    that is titled

    and within that is one thing that struck me immediately :

    “Criminal investigative information received on a confidential or similarly restricted basis (SPD emails only)”

    which is cited as being redacted due to this case. statute:

    IANAL however and will defer to those with expertise. What all could this be? My mind runs to the dramatic, such as someone who is a “confidential informant,” ie, has secretly turned state’s evidence against the defendant.

      • Excellent point, and a more likely explanation since it relates to SPD emails. I’ve not yet seen these emails in the discovery however.

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch….

        Shellie Zimmerman’s lawyer asked for and got a continuance in her perjury case.

        I can imagine the deal the SAO would offer her if they even had to put it into words, which they don’t, IMO: “Look, your husband is going to prison for a long, long time. You can either play ball with us or join him in being incarcerated on a perjury charge related to a murder case, a situation where you will not likely be granted leniency.” However this presupposes that she has anything to say regarding the murder charge that would help the prosecution. I get the feeling after hearing Mark Osterman speak at some length that George is trying to keep his false narrative to himself as far as how the mechanics of it work. His statements seem coached, especially the video walk thru but I think his father and MO gave him strategies without necessarily hearing the truth from George.

  74. Here’s evidence that relates to a “new to me” witness who lives in the same townhouse block on RVC as W18, but it not W18. It’s a zerox of a photo, name, witness number and address redacted but the view is from an upstairs window of the western-most unit on RVC that backs onto the cut-thru / dog walk area. The view is partial – you can’t see the T or all of John W6’s back yard but they seem to have been able to see the sidewalk centered on where the tan bag was found and possibly a lot of the physical struggle, if they were looking out at the time.

    It’s a view of the “foot chase” or the “stumbling” part of the altercation, possibly. I can’t currently connect it to any know witness statements or 911 calls, but maybe someone else can? This looks new to me.

    new? partial view from RVC  - IN DISPUTE  see notes - UPDATE - WRONG, IGNORE

    previously i had been using Jeralyn of Talk Left’s map to identify witness and 911 caller locations.

    is this current? link to her map:

    jerayln witness map

    • @ willis
      I think you’re mistaken. I think all the pics are from W18’s window. Numbers 4, 5 and 7 seem to show her view of RVC, from whence W13 and Ofc. Smith would have approached. You can make out a car in the driveway of W13′ to the left side of the pics.

      In any event, the angle of view of a human observer would be significantly wider than that shown by the camera, which is determined by the focal length of the lens used and the distance from the window. the photographer has backed off enough to show the window frame. A person would likely move closer to the window.

      • damn cookie cutter houses! I think you are right. I’ll make a change to my flickr page. I didn’t see the car at first look.

        It’s ridiculous that these bad zeroxes of photos count as “discovery.”

  75. I’ve posted all the witness 12 interviews I have and a composite. I’m adding questions that beg asking for each witness at the trial. Onward to w13.

  76. Whonoze,

    The 911 timings from the most important witnesses are confirmed in the latest discovery.
    To me the most important ones are W3, W6, W11 & W18.
    It looks like you’re right about JohnW6 calling before Teresa. So, I’ll have to fix that error.
    Overall, our deductions look correct to me. I’m still fighting with the definition of “Location” in the call logs. If you look that of W18, Location gives TTL but the log states that the caller lives on RVC (as expected).

      • No I did not notice it. Of course we’re interested.

        I’m very confident that the vids are in synch. The correlation between the light events across the vids is too high to leave much doubt about it.

        The official starting point is 6:48. I’m still not comfortable with that time and will be only after I come to a reasonable explanation on what Police Wit #3 saw through her window. However, Amsterdam convinced me not to dismiss that starting time as a quick evaluation made within SPD based only on the ambulance.
        The evaluation I’ve made is based T. Smith arrival and may be wrong if my understanding of what he did is wrong. However, it would put the starting time at between 7:46:00 & 7:46:30.

  77. I’ve added a small set of photos to y flickr sets relating to what W18, “the distraught teacher” had for a vantage point, which is somewhat obvious: she had a good view of the scene from upstairs and down.

    W18downstairsview panarama

    I think one of the hand drawn “maps” is hers as well – can anyone confirm that? It seems to show the path of W13/Jon and probably ofc. Tim Smith coming from RVC as well as GZ’s migration towards the T post-shooting. I’ll add it to the set if there is a consensus that this drawing is hers. There are also two arrows on the drawing, probably one for the up stairs and one for the downstairs windows she looked out.

    On another note I’m trying to get up to speed with Tchoupi and Amsterdam on the clubhouse video topic, and would love feedback on this set relating to that subject:

    east pool combined diagram w tell tale reflection location noted
    • Light fall-off is governed by the inverse square law, which means a source dims geometrically as you move away from it. I HIGHLY doubt a porch light at 1211 TTL would show up by reflection at the distance between W11’s unit and the East Pool camera as anything but a little white dot.

      • As I understand it, the inverse square law relates mostly to how offscreen light falls onto a subject and THEN reflects to an eye or film/ sensor, etc. Light sources in the frame itself are just that – light sources bearing directly onto film and thus reducing the contrast of the lens and recording to the film/sensor retina etc as direct hits. Past a certain sensitivity they are recorded as “blown out” white spots with no detail. Only atmospheric debris cuts their intensity – dust, fog, rain, etc. Distance mostly relates to size in the frame once you get past the foreground. Witness the moon, plenty bright as seen from earth and almost always “blown out” on camera if you are shooting a night scene with a wide f/stop.

        The light in a wet dark street is similar to a light in a mirror. It carries a lot of the original power of the source.

        Having said all that, I have zero real idea what the source of what I call “the snowman” is in the east pool videos. I’m just guessing at this point since there is no good way to test any theory at this distance from the scene.

        Here is what I call “the snowman,” for anyone who cares to jump in here and give their two cents.

        east pool diagram of parts

        It’s the three stacked pools of light seemingly at the second bend of TTL visible in the east pool videos. Cars seem to drive towards it and occasionally block it from camera. I think it may be the porch lights of 1221 TTL or else John’s porch lights, both seen directly and via reflection in the wet street.

        I suppose another candidate could be that it is reflections off the Ford truck that is “always parked there.”

        Other than that, i really dunno. But if we could know it would help determine how much of TTL is in the blind spot cut from view by what I call the “constant flare” in the upper left of frame, a blind spot that may obscure the car-to-pedestrian chase that IMO (and dee dee’s) caused Trayvon to run away.

        A simple daytime photo would resolve the question. Won’t someone drive over there for me and take a few shots? (A person can dream, can’t they?)

    • I’d guess you’re right about the drawing labeled “4/14”. If so, that could be potential dynamite as it seems to show GZ walking directly to the T after the shooting, thus potentially explaining the evidence found there. I’ll admit that seems too quick-witted for GZ to realize the benefit of dropping something there. But why else would he take the path shown on that drawing (if indeed that arrow does show his path)? Ah, so much speculation, so little solid information…

      • @whonoze:
        I know what you mean about the frustration regarding not enough data. Imagine how Chris Serino felt, having to listen to George’s obvious lies but lacking a solid eyewitness to the whole episode – George killed the real “eyewitness.” (If only Serino had met Dee Dee…. or had more time to continue his investigation.)

        Re: what seems to be W18s hand drawn map:

        I think one potential (unprovable) explanation for GZ’s walk north after the shooting was to simply flee the scene. Instead he ran into w13/Jon with his gun related chatter and iPhone camera. Another possible explanation would be to “plant” the keychain flashlight but like you said he’s awfully quick to come up with that as an alibi, if it is indeed the case. And of course even w18 can’t say he went there for the purpose of planting the keychain flashlight. She just saw him walk that way for whatever reason. The innocent explanation is that GZ saw W13/Jon and went to meet him, although that sounds odd to me, given that this is a good way to get yourself shot by a cop by mistake.

        • W18 also said he looked around with his hand above his eyes, “bladed”, ie like peering into the distance. Maybe trying to see if the police were here yet?

          I do not believe the big flashlight is not GZ’s
          1) he was banging one to get it going: the little one was working so can’t have been that one
          2) can’t see him getting about with just a keychain toy light; one witness said he’s in the habit of driving about with his headlights off but checking between the buildings with a torch..
          3) no witness had reason to put down (and therefore lose) their vluable flashlight.

    • Willi, I’m working on fixing my document based on the latest discovery. I have to swap W6’s & W19’s 911 call times and get through all the implications. To my sense there isn’t much implication but I have to understand that.

      Wit #3 time was correct. So, she really saw police at 7:41 from her front bedroom. It can only be T. Smith.
      What I’m wondering now is what she meant by “It’s behind the house […] It’s not the front entrance”. I always thought she meant T. Smith was at her front porch. But if she is able to see vehicles at the front gate from her front room then she may have meant that the cars should not stay by the clubhouse.
      Assuming the official time for the vids is 6:48, then there were 2 cars coming in at about the correct time for Wit 3 to see. But, both turned left to go west on RVC. There is 0 indication that any of those cars spent time by the north entrance.

      So, I’m seriously entertaining the 6:48 but I’m not 100% satisfy with it as the vehicle that seems to have taken the most logical route that would fit T. Smith & Wit 3 stories comes in 1min & 46sec too late.

      I’m hoping for additional datapoints, I mean the arrival times of LEOs Ayala & Raimondo (at least) will help determining at what time the vids really start.

      • Somehow I had gotten the early impression that T Smith responded to an address on RVC. Not sure now where and how that got into my head but I need to go back and sort it out. Thanks for the clues.

        W 18 has a drawing that I may have gotten that idea from – she has two lines rounding the bend into the T area from the direction of RVC. My mind works in visuals I think.

      • When the officer turns left on RVC, maybe he creates a light event from W18’s and W20’s side of RVC visible on the clubhouse/pool vids. Just a thought.

      • I made a mistake in my post above. The two vehicles turned right to go west and not left as I wrote. The point is that if T. Smith was in one of those cars, he was going in the wrong direction to respond to Wit 3 and was taking the long road to respond to 2821 RVC.
        I can’t exclude that possibility though. Indeed, he was initially responding to 1111 RVC (the clubhouse) and may have got used to turn right on RVC from previous calls from our friend George.

        • I have thought that all along…I am convinced that Smith turned right on RVC…I even noticed small red flashing lights on the door of front entrance at 29.11 of video.

          • And to further confirm my thoughts on that…I noticed that Smith said to dispatch something to the effect that he is going around “back”.

            So if Smith did arrive when I thought he did It also seems backs up my theory that GZ moving when he was on the call with NEN and the sounds we hear are gear sounds of his truck…..JMO

  78. First responder ofc. T. Smith arrived via RVC, did he not? What might be the first cop car to head down TTL? Is this known and if so how logged? It seems like there may not be a “sync” point known that can link picture to audio, exactly.

    FWIW, GZ says something during the video walk thru “re-enactment” that stuck in my mind. He’s pushing his false narrative at the time, but he tells investigators “I called the non emergency line, and then when i got thru i parked at the clubhouse…” It seems to have taken him around 30 seconds or longer to get to a human on the other end of the line. Did he have that amount of time to expend just driving from Frank Taafe’s house to the clubhouse parking lot? Seems kinda short to me. If on the other hand we take that connection time to be after he passes the mail kiosk, and while he’s making his U turn, etc he’s got the time. It takes him at least ten seconds to negotiate the first turn in TTL, and then another ten to disappear into the “bling spot” behind the “constant flare.” There’s around ten more seconds until his car reappears, seemingly making a U-turn and then more as the “constant flare” blooms large at the top left of the east poolhouse video. Plenty of time there to call and get past the automated whatever (press one for english, etc) to reach a human.

    If he is mixing fact and fiction in the way I think he might be, he’s giving a sequence to events that mean he (first) saw TM by the mail kiosk, immediately called the NEN line, maneuvered his car into a position on TTL “at the clubhouse” meaning where he marked the map – facing west on TTL almost at the corner itself, having made his U turn down by 1221 TTL as seen in the clubhouse video, then the connection with Sean began after he had parked his car. This is rank speculation but makes a lot of sense to me as a possible timing sequence to try as a guesswork sync point for picture and audio.

    • i really don’t understand the clubhouse lights and although i appreciate all the hard work put in here it’s far to complex for my simple little brain to comprehend, so i just briefly peruse the discussion and then leave it up to you guys. But it is of the belief that the car lights show that George was ahead of Trayvon and then did a u-turn to wait and watch, is that correct? I always thought that he was in front of Trayvon at one point (he’s coming to check me out), and was then creeping slowly behind him because he was trying to keep on eye on him. And DeeDee says the guy was following him in his car.

      So how do you reconcile DeeDees comments of being followed in the car and the u-turn evidence. And I don’t understand why he would tell the police he parked on the left, which would mean he was creeping up behind this kid on the wrong side of the road shining his lights on him if he had simply driven past the kid and done a u-turn to watch as the kid approached him. If he waited for Trayvon to pass him, as he has said at the clubhouse, then reverses out and slowly follows him up the wrong side of the road, that is far worse i would say, so why would he lie about it.


      • replying to myself again…lol..i’m not crazy just forgot to add….

        remember that Dee Dee didn’t tell her story for some time after the event, so when she says Trayvon was waiting by the mailboxes perhaps she presumed the mailboxes because she has heard so much about them, maybe he took shelter earlier and when he passed zimm the first time just went straight past the sport centre and cut straight across to the left of the road. Zim said Tray disapeared around the corner and then they asked him to follow blah blah blah, but perhaps Zim’s car was still running and as soon as Tray passed him he was already reversing out and not far behind Trayvon as he walked towards the cut off….talking to non-emergency as he drove slowly, then “shit, he’s running”, stops the car (was only going slow anyway) and jumps out.

        Where he says he got out of the car was a little way back from the cut off. I’d say that is how close he was tailing Trayvon from. I think that when trayvon hit the path that cuts through he started running from there to lose the guy in the car as cars can’t drive through there (it’s common sense to me that he wouldn’t start running earlier as the car can just speed up and follow, he would have ran as soon as he hit the section the car couldn’t navigate), and i’d say zimmerman stopped exactly where he was and jumped out immediately. If he stopped the car (he would have been creeping slow as) immediately then not only was he following this kid in his car but he was doing it on the wrong side of the road which has certainly got to freak you out if you are the one being followed. I really don’t think he took the time to pull over to the side of the road or he would have pulled over to the right, he just stopped where he was, already on the left.

        • Jo:
          I would guess that the only ‘following in his car’ GZ did was making a last U-turn from facing West toward the mailboxes to facing East toward the ‘T’ after Trayvon walked past him. Based on all the timings established by the NEN call and the security vids, GZ pretty much had to be parked on TTL looking at TM under the mail awning, when he made his phone call. Nothing GZ said in the ‘re-enactment’ about Trayvon’s movements can be believed. He would have had to assume the police knew where his truck had been parked, so he would have had to concoct his story so it wound up where it indeed was, but of course he’s almost certainly lying about how it got there.

          DeeDee wasn’t there, of course, so how she translates the action is 3rd hand: her version of what Trayvon told her. And she consistently stretches things to frame Zimmerman in the worst possible light. While we can guess the overall thrust of her account is more-or-less accurate, it would be a mistake to take anything she says too literally.

          I assume the reason GZ parked on the wrong side of the street is it allowed his headlights to illuminate the path to the ‘T’, which would have been cut off by the corner of 1211 TTL had he parked on the right side.

          • I agree with whonoze, tchoupi and many others here, Jo.

            The car-to-pedestrian chase was short and slow-motion, but it must have been quite frightening to Trayvon. And I agree that the clubhouse videos are not jury-friendly evidence on the surface, and the discussion surrounding them is often hard to follow. But don’t worry – this is all leading to a place where it will sound logical once we sort out the last kinks between ourselves.

            And, even if we dont – get this: Ignoring the clubhouse videos, the car-to-pedestrian chase can still be proven to have taken place IN COURT by comparing the NEN call recording’s timing, and GZ’s inconsistent, contradictory statements. The ONE piece of outside evidence that can be supposedly challenged here is the idea that TM was at the mail kiosk as told by Dee Dee, but even that (which I find totally credible) is supported by GZ’s own words on the call recording – “is he near the clubhouse now?/ yeah, now he’s coming towards me” If, by this GZ meant TM was closer to the clubhouse than he was to any other building, then the state wouldn’t even need to use Dee Dee for that point at all. I think they should, however but she’s merely SUPPORTING the idea of the chase, not presenting it solo.

            This specific event, the car-to-pedestrian chase that made TM run when he got close to the cut thru path is what GZ lies about most clearly and he did it IMO because he knows it looks very bad as far as answering who the agresor was and who was acting with a “depraved mind” and all. If you mentally place his car where he himself marked on a map (before quickly amending his tale and relating the “he doubled back to circle me” BS) not only does the timing finally make sense (GZ’s competing versions don’t work with the laws of physics), it also helps RESOLVE the contradictory things he seems to be saying. When at last GZ was played the NEN call recording, he repeatedly confirms that he was “At the clubhouse” when he describes TM passing him. And in fact, he was “At the clubhouse,” just not where he claims he was. Instead he was at the first corner of TTL.

            The clubhouse video seems to confirm or corroborate, anyway, the fact that he passed the mail kiosk slow, then went down by the cut thru and made a U turn. We can’t see how close he crept back towards the corner but deductive reasoning tells us that if he had hung back all the way by the cut thru, Trayvon would have had to walk very fast to pass him, and very very slow to walk away before he ran, which is counter-intuitive. If he walked at a constant speed and was able to pass the “final” cut thru postion then by the time GZ is heard saying sh*t, he’s running Trayvon would have been so far away GZ probably wouldn’t have been able to see him. I call this the “long tail” of the here he comes/ there he goes tale we hear on the recording. Trayvon walked towards GZ for around 30 seconds and away for 30 more before he ran. Simple logic tells us George was somewhere roughly in the middle of this path.

            On the video, should the prosecution try to present it at trial, the u turn itself is proof that GZ is pushing a false narrative. Added to this is the likely visual proof that he never parked in the clubhouse – (the timing already alone proves this is a lie) and that he trolled the mail kiosk moving quite slow, possibly even stopping dead still for ten seconds or so.

            The reason we are still beating this dead horse here is that clubhouse videos are grainy, blurry and hard to decipher but they are very good at showing the movements regarding the initial activity, close to the part of the case that the prosecution could easily present using ONLY George’s own words to destroy his credibilty. It’s not George vs dee dee, or George vs a “thug travon” or George vs a mob that called for arrest, etc. It’s George proving himself a liar, period simply by virtue of the cops giving him enough rope and letting him run his mouth off like a typical liar who can’t keep his story straight.

            I think it’s like the desire of vampire hunters in classic horror – we, the villagers (who are tired of all the BS) want to not only nail this monster’s coffin shut, we want to encase it in cement and make sure he’s wrapped in battleship chains to boot after driving the stake thru it’s heart. Because the “never parked at the clubhouse lot” also tends to lead to the potentially gut-chilling idea that he never even SAW Trayvon until he drove past the mail kiosk. Yes, the dreaded “conspiracy theory” but this time it’s probably true. I doubt the prosecution will go there, however and that means someone is going to escape justice – his tipoff person, if they exist and that’s also like a horror flick – some evil always survives in the end so there’s wiggle room for a sequel.

            Sorry for the lengthy post.

            • thanks willis, i think that makes more sense to me. I still can’t believe there has been no confirmation of where his car actually was. Maybe if the dash cams are ever released it will sort that out. I still don’t know how you guys had the patience to analyse those lights, it amazes me how many brilliant minds are here to help people like me understand it all.

            • include me out of any kudos for looking at clubhouse videos…. I threw up my hands in the air after an initial look, and waited for others to take the lead on that front. But I’m trying to join in at this late date. Thcoupi deserves the thanks on that one, and on quite a few other issues as well. AMsterdam and I both worked on the timing of the moves from clubhouse to cut thru when we were posting at Daily Kos months ago, and along with others doing similar work elsewhere all came to a general consensus about the car-to-pedestrian chase slowly and surel as supporting evidence arose. Before we all heard what GZ told the SPD ( his false narrative) this route and manner was already the simplest way to account for the timing of the NEN call recording. George’s lies then had to be combatted in general for two months following, as people were forced to try to give him the benefit of doubt as a consensus, I’d say but on the very day I first heard George’s “doubled back/ circled my car baloney” I knew from that moment on his credibility would be utterly destroyed in court by simple logic.

              The location of the body is something I am proud to say I had a contribution of sorts with, after someone on kos noticed the yellow tarp showing up in a local news video. This again was long before we heard GZ’s statements to SPD or knew his whereabouts. His surrogates were out flacking for him in the media, claiming what he told them, and SPD – that he was struck in the nose and fell to the ground while walking back to his truck. Frank Taafe showed a local TV news reporter that the fight took place “according to eyewitnesses” where the keychain flashlight was found. GZ’s father insisted George was knocked directly to the ground, and it was only until we heard and saw GZ spontaneously invent and insert his pathetic “stumbling” routine that he ever had a prayer of explaining that he was “returning to(wards) his truck” ever, His story here is “wafer thin” but at least this part is physically possible. His stories (plural, inconsistent and contradictory) about his moves from clubhouse to cut thru are simply not possible.

              To me, that’s where the case stands at present. He’s got zero credibility but the proof surrounding the physical altercation itself is less of a complete slam dunk than the lead-up to it. I think a jury will follow the prosecution’s lead however in saying the basic story is that GZ profiled, pursued, confronted and shot the teen in an illegal fashion with a depraved mind and that they will gain a M2 conviction. I don’t see a jury having much sympathy for him in general, and his credibility like I said is nil and void even before one cares to examine his shady underbelly of priors, and domestic abuse and possible statutory rape, etc and then there is of course the bail and passport issues… sheesh. If this is a case where people want to “pile it on,” the prosecution has a line of dumptrucks that look like the one leaving Ground Zero in Tribeca after 9/11. It’s endless, and toxic to boot. And if the defense tries in court to smear Trayvon with the “thug” routine, it will backfire completely on its own before the door is even opened to assault GZ’s character.

              I don’t think MOM/GZ will win, or maybe even try for a SYG immunity hearing or a self defense pretrial hearing either. I have my doubts that they will even go to trial at all, but GZ’s personality and the fact that this trial is taking place in Florida means anything is possible. I did not follow Casey Anthony at all, but those who did assure me that yes, anything is possible. But I have faith that George will get a fair trial ( I miss Judge Lester) and a spirited defense. (A lot of the GZ supporters won’t even say that much. ) And I am all but certain that he will be convicted – only a total perversion of logic and justice and an incompetent performance by the prosecution will free him.

              What do others see as “the big picture” at the present? We all get lost in the details happily here, and rightfully so sometimes but I’d be curious to hear from a few of y’all.

            • Big picture still coming into focus. But it’s M2.

              21st century self-defense even for police is stuff like pepper spray, mace, taser, or maybe martial arts. I know nothing about guns. But to me guns are offensive weapons. I suppose a real gun nut might fantasize about putting non-exploding bullets into extremities like shoulder, leg, hands. But GZ used a hollow point right into the heart at close range. That’s not defensive. It is certain death of the opponent. It’s what Mark David Chapman did to John Lennon – tore him up – made sure Lennon couldn’t be saved. Chapman continues to be denied bond. I think the bullet GZ used and the location and distance was criminal in the context of this case.

      • Jo,
        GZ was trying to hide the fact, that he had followed Trayvon in his car to TTL. In his first interview he said “I pulled over to the side and called nen. He disappeared between two house, then came back and circled my car and disappeared again”.

        Then Singleton pulls out a map, and his story changes to ” I pulled over at the clubhouse”. Here Singleton asks him if Trayvon had passed him, and he says yes.
        It sounds like GZ is describing that he could see Trayvon disapearing in the cut-through, from his position near the clubhouse on RVC, because Singleton says ” you could see that from here?”.

        The following day, during the re-enactment when parked at the spot in front of the clubhouse, he realizes that he could not have seen Trayvon taking that path from that spot, and he uses his “I lost visual and the dispatcher wanted to know where he was”‘ to explain why he ended up on TTL.

        The clubhouse videos may help proof that GZ was at least following Trayvon, or he got a tip, and left his house with his gun, looking for Trayvon.

        What I understand from some legal experts, it would make GZ the agressor, and the standard for self defense, would change to a higher standard.

  79. DMS-7 seems to be the evidence tag given to TM’s cell phone in the 262 page .pfd about DNA testing of various items of evidence. Has anyone figured out what if anything FDLE found on the cell phone? Some have wondered if TM may have hit GZ on the head with it.

    I’m not any good at making head or tails of forensic evidence like this, but I am curious.

    • Looks like only LP-C (latent prints) was requested as a test on the phone, not DNA tests.
      Page 119 of the previous discovery says that they returned the phone to Sanford with the bag unopened per information obtained from special agent supervisor David Lee. Not clear what this “information” is except the letter was dated march 20, about the same time it was widely reported that DeeDee had been talking to TM on the phone that night.
      Maybe the fingerprinting was only to identify that TM was carrying the phone, but they didn’t do tests on it because the family wanted to keep all of his other information on the phone private?

      • I’d heard a rumor/ theory that the fingerprint tests were cancelled/ delayed so that they wouldn’t mess up the DNA tests. The idea is that fingerprint tests contaminate or ruin DNA samples, so it’s kinda one or the other in a plastic item like a cell phone. I have no idea if this it true or the case here, but it’s just another possibility I was hoping we’d finally found out about. What you are telling me is something Im going to “take away” as “it’s still a big mystery until an expert explains it better.” But the idea of getting the phone back to look for texts and calls from Dee Dee seems like a strong contender for most likely occurrence. If whaat i heard is true, then after the fingerprint tests were done it’s deemed unlikely to be able to pull DNA from it. That theory I’ll call “seems as likely as any at this point but it makes narrative sense, anyway. ”

        I’m no CSI Miami fan…. this stuff is greek to me.

        • @Wiliis: “it’s still a big mystery until an expert explains it better.”

          LOL, sorry I’m not an expert, but my two cents is that you can’t lift a print and take a swab for DNA testing of the same spot. On both cases you’re physically removing something off of the surface to perform the separate tests.

          Since the phone was the ONLY thing they requested prints on (blood and DNA tests were done on the gun and holster) makes me think that it was not initially considered a “weapon”. Other than that, who knows really at this point why there was a delay. I also wonder who and how the police handled the phone right after the shooting too. Did they bag it immediately or fuss with/contaminate it while determining it had a dead battery? Yep, gonna put this one in the “mystery” pile for now.

  80. Orlando sentinel reports that it will enter Mark Osterman’s “book” and tv appearances into evidence.

    “De la Rionda also yesterday filed a new evidence list – his eighth. It shows that a book and television appearance by Zimmerman’s self-proclaimed best friend, former Seminole County deputy Mark Osterman, are now officially part of the case prosecutors are building against Zimmerman.”

    I’d like to see that evidence list. That should be an index of sorts the next round of discovery, although previous announcements never quite seem to fully match the actual documents released IMO.

    • @WIllis, “Orlando sentinel reports that it will enter Mark Osterman’s “book” and tv appearances into evidence.” Thanks! If they haven’t already done so, a number of people (Ostermans, GZ and family, O’Mara, the publisher, other Amazon book resellers, treepers) are doing this……

    • I really don’t want to see such an important case boil down to gossiper’s and grifter’s ability to engage a publishing house. I actually don’t see where Osterman, his wife, or their Odessa Girl have added anything of use that moves the case forward. To me, they are mere distractions.

      Glad their promo is a FAIL! 🙂

      • Yes, the book was a non-starter. Even the treepers don’t like it and were given excerpts for free. I wonder if the ghost writer was wise enough to get paid up front. The vanity publishing house (run by a complete arse-hole) will only make very minor fees for printing on-demand less than a thousand copies or so. Might be a collector’s item someday… nah. Even that is ruined by the printed-on-demand aspect.

        At the start of the “Peter Pan”