I’m not quite sure how John Guy’s opening statement could have gone any better. At the same time, Don West of George Zimmerman’s defense team (no video to come) completely shit the bed with a confusing/boring/sloppy opening statement that — for some reason — included Zimmerman’s call to police:
I absolutely don’t get it. Especially since the wind interference from Zimmerman running after Trayvon Martin and subsequent tapping of metal (flashlight/gun?) ends 15+ seconds AFTER he was told to stop chasing the unarmed teen.
I’m logging off now (11:30 am EDT) to catch a flight — please feel free to leave a comment if Zimmerman’s defense finally makes a valid argument.
Okay, email me about this thread as well, he said to the robot.
“(no video to come)”
Lol. I thought I’d be angry, but Don West is just too ridiculous to take seriously.
West says that GZ didn’t go to the hospital because it was the POLICE’s decision.
West says a lot of things that are inaccurate. I’m bored to tears, so let’s get to the witnesses already, shit.
One of the commentators on HLN just said Ms. Fulton began shaking and had to quickly leave the court. My heart breaks for her.
: ( so sad….
What a conundrum for the defense. They want to explain GZ’s “mindset” by saying that he’s a concerned citizen worried about previous break-ins. Yet, at the end of the day today they objected to the state bringing up GZ’s prior 911 calls about potential burglars. They didn’t object to it when it was entered into evidence, but now they do it in open court. I think O’Mara just wanted to object in order to accuse the prosecution of going down the racial profiling path. So the Judge put the court in recess until tomorrow to allow both sides to prepare an argument on the matter. I get the feeling we’re gonna get a lot of these objections. Do they really think they can wrap things up between 2-4 weeks at this rate?
Of course GZ ran from south to north past witness 1. That’s because he followed Trayvon south and then chased him north. Everyone knows that except MOM. I find it hard to believe the Zimm side only “knows” what George told them. I enjoyed how they emphasised this movement to the jury for 30 minutes! It is the crux of the case
You’re logging off now to take a flight? Seriously, do you think for one second we’re going to buy into your line of reasoning as the same as GZ’s, e.g., there is nothing actually available where I am so logging off will have to suffice.;-)
I could have walked from Chicago to my final destination in Michigan quicker, I think. 🙂
Well, maybe not, but it was a brutal 24+ hours of traveling. And, I’m still waiting for the suitcases to arrive.
They are on the same turnstile as GZ’s defense or maybe the lost and found department. :))
Hahahah — My suitcases finally showed up, will Zimmerman’s defense team?
Rachel (aka DeeDee, I’m saying her name now that it’s out in the open) gave a more complete testimony today. She has a low, soft voice and a mumbled way of speaking, so it was hard for the court to hear her and they kept having to ask her to repeat things. But here’s a few snippets of what I thought was new. She said TM told her that a “creepy @ss cr@cker was watching him” while he was at the mail area. Then she said the man was following him, and that TM wanted to see if he could “lose” him. He thought he did lose him because he had run from the back and was right by his dad’s house (we’ve discussed what that could mean, not necessary on his dad’s porch but somewhere in the back area). Here’s the kicker, TM said “Oh shit, the n–gga is still following me.” Those words “Oh shit” tell it all, that TM ran back there to “lose” the man, not to “lie in wait for an assault” as the treepers would have us believe.
No One in Podunk Sanford apparently can understand any dialect outside of white bread America. I could understand every single word and my old ears are probably not as acute as they were.
West had to change position to hear her! JN pointed out this was the only witness he had to move for. She also said, and I quote, “Sit down Mr. West” She also denied his objection to his own question, saying you can’t object to your own statement
This morning O’Mara asked questions without knowing the answer would NOT be the one he would want. (law 101 teaches lawyers never ask a question you don’t know the answer to)
If you’ll have time watch last night’s Daily Show and Colbert Report. Both had sketches about West’s opening joke.
One had a knock knock joke:
Orange you suppose to be a better fucken lawyer?
Rachael called West out on dates and lack of continuing her deposition.
Her punishment is to return tomorrow for another 2 hrs.
The bad thing is West is trying for impeachment as she changed one word in her testimony from her depo. Depo said she thought it was TM’s voice on 911 but today she said definitely was his voice.
She’s not a doll like pix we saw of TM & young lady but she’s very moving…even had me in tears.
I would have thought with their money they would’ve hired an AA young attorney to cross but maybe that’s not allowed legally.
I understood everything Rachel was saying too and was just as annoyed as she was for having to repeat so many statements.
The only thing I wish…
Somebody would have advised her to remain composed and on point no matter how unnecessary she thought the questions were. You could tell West was fucking with her by asking dumb/confusing/detail laden questions, pausing for long periods of time, and acting overly calm when she was obviously anxious.
A few things I noticed from watching some of “Dee Dee’s” testimony today…
– Didn’t it seem like Rachel was trying to tell the court/jury that she thought Trayvon was directly outside of Brandi’s house before being chased that final time?
– Rachel mentioned telling Trayvon that Zimmerman could be a rapist (or did she mention this in her statements/deposition too)? There’s nothing significant to her assertion other than us previously imagining what it would be like fleeing from a potential rapist in the dark rainy night. I.e. Not wanting to lead a predator back to the house and Chad.
– I think the defense was prepping Rachel for an upcoming bombshell by asking why she thought it took Trayvon 30 minutes to get to the mailboxes from 7/11. There could be more to this story based on her dodgy response and the 3 hooded guys that bought 4 cigars after Trayvon was denied a cigar and left 7/11. Regardless, as mentioned in the below posting, none of this means Trayvon Martin should have been profiled/chased/killed that night.
– Sucks that Rachel needed to admit under oath that she lied about both her age and attending the wake.
I agree that she wasn’t saying he got to his own back porch. But in the general sense of the word, one can consider that whole entire area TM’s backyard where he’s played ball. It’s certainly not GZ’s backyard.
She never mentioned joking that GZ could be a rapist in her depos. I’m glad she’s filling in more of these details of the conversation now. The whole business about her changing her wording is that she’s a teenager (yes, Mr. West, 19 is still considered a teenager) who is used to speaking a certain way and feeling like she has to “clean up” her words when speaking to adults/authority.
I’m glad she’s getting to finally explain her reasons for the “lies”. They’re powerful reasons, and West would look all the more foolish if he keeps repeating the word “lie” only to make her cry about not wanting to see TM’s body. Too bad the jury may never know about the doxing of her friends. I think there was an “aha” moment for me when she said that she assumed that people had read her text messages to TM and thought that they were in a relationship. I took it to mean that they joked around, and with language that may not be quite “clean”, Also sometimes her friends would be the ones using her phone to text stuff to TM. Regardless of the content, that tells you that you CANNOT rely on someone’s texts as their own words. There goes the defense’s hope of trying to use TM’s messages as evidence of his thuggishness.
Lawyers who humiliate young females in public are scumbags. This defense on more than one occasion has tried to change witnesses’ honest testimony. On Feb. 26 when they were witnessing they were not taking a side.
Hey, welcome back! I had thought “Fred” above was a newcomer. You’ll always be Screamin Jay to us! I’ve used your transcripts many times to look up testimony and they were very helpful. If you’ve got the time, please go to Sanford and give the court reporter a hand as she is sitting next to DeeDee and can’t understand her, when a lot of people here have said they can understand he reasonably well through the microphone 🙂
Great to be back with you. I rekindled an old romantic interest and never finished the master spreadsheet to compare witnesses but I am liking the order of prosecution witnesses. It is showing what actually happened one step at a time. Pay close attention to the order of 1st hand accounts the jury is hearing. It will take a lot to overcome the damage done In the defense’s opening statement .
Good for you! I’m glad that’s the reason for the diversion from your transcripts.
Trayvon was a fast runner, young and in shape, and knew the neighborhood. Not knowing his “follower” he has two options, fight or flight. If I was M, and having an obvious speed advantage, I would have put distance between myself and Z. Which apparently he did with the “Oh shit he’s running.” statement. Now the question I can’t get my head around. Running and using his advantage, why would he suddenly stop and decide to fight? It goes against rational thinking. It’s two distinct mindsets. Once the primary option (flight) is negated (cornered) then fighting kicks in, and visa-versa. If you’re fighting, and loosing, then flight is your only other option. This is documented in many psychology texts. T wouldn’t have voluntarily switched his tool of survival unless cornered since he was the hunted. There is nothing to make him become the aggressor. T hit the afterburners and was out of there, as soon as broke line of sight from Zimmerman. .
TM could of turned to stand his ground if he felt leading his chaser to his home endangered his family.
I really wish a witness would quote MOM’s line where he was basically saying if someone told their story the exact same each time that would surely indicate it was a lie. I’d love to see the constipated face he’d make at that. 🙂
Hope you all are well! NLME, sorry that your flight was such a pain in the ass, but hope Boston was a great time!
It is wrong that he killed that child for no more reason than the way he looked. So one gave zimmerman some BS leader of neighborhood watch and he thought that meant he was God and could take a innocents life. He is guilty of murder plain and simple. He deserves to spend the rest of his live in prison or worse. He is guilty. He has took that child from his family. Has ended his life when her had so much more
Forgive my rambling, being in pain doesn’t help me find the right words to get across what I want to say. Please read through the complete post and forgive anything which sounds prejudice or close minded. I simply want to propose something I haven’t come across anywhere else.
TM was not a baby nor a boy, TM was a young man who could of turned his live around no matter anything TM was involved with in the past. Even if TM and friends broke the law before that night, TM wasn’t involved with a B&E that evening. Even if TM regularly smoked marijuana, it thankfully that no longer prevents him from being President one day. Even if TM was looking for a target for crime, the weather and GZ made it impossible. At some point it went from two people heading home to TM and GZ involved in a game of cat and mouse which unfortunately resulted in a death.
Much of the information released outside the trial seem to point to TM being suspended from school, not involved with the honor roll and being sent to live with his father. That night TM went to the convenience store and was taking his time getting back home. Perhaps he shared cigars with some friends, perhaps not. No matter, at some point TM and GZ crossed path. Maybe GZ is not racist toward darker shades of culture and only thought TM was up to no good regardless to the color of his skin. Once GZ approached TM, even if by chance while searching for a house number, TM felt in danger. TM communicated as much. If TM felt going home would endanger his family perhaps, where could he go, so TM stopped trying to lose GZ..
After hearing the trial to completion and my rambling above, I wonder if TM is the man whose actions fall under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. Without anywhere to go, TM stood his ground and used the weapons he had available. How hard would you strike someone you knew in your bones was out to hurt you and your family?
If things went the other way and TM was on trial for the death of GZ, wouldn’t the facts point to him “standing his ground” to prevent a stalker from learning his home. I hope the police, DA and courts would get over “race” and ensure justice instead of attempting to fill the local prison, tacking on more time the darker your skin happens to be. Even with things as they are, doesn’t the actions of TM fall under the “Stand Your Ground” law?
Thanks for reading my twisted thoughts. Please forgive anything which irritated or angered you.
Thank you for the comment. You have a good point. A point the prosecution alluded to.
Darn, I need to find where I missed that. I figure the Prosecution did not want to push it nor clearly claim TM actions fell under “Stand Your Ground” (SYG) as this brings up TM attacking GZ. Also, they needed to focus on prosecuting and stay out of clarifying SYG for the jury. I didn’t miss that also, did I?
They only alluded to your point. In fact, they only alluded to a lot of points during this trial for some reason.
Stand Your Ground trials get determined by judges, not juries. Hence, the defense knew they couldn’t/shouldn’t go in front of a judge who would know that causing fear is assault in Florida and thus unlawful.
So, the prosecution could only directly reference self defense and not Stand Your Ground. Why they didn’t mention that Zimmerman was unlawfully assaulting Trayvon Martin by causing fear is beyond me.
Please quit conflating SYG (776.012, 776.013) with immunity (776.032)
They are both parts of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law, but they are separate parts.
And just because a lot of people made the mistake of referring to all of Fla. 776 as SYG back at the beginning of this case does not mean that Zimmerman ever claimed to have been “standing his ground” or ever intended to, and immunity does not depend upon that.
My bad — Thank you! Had it right last night, I’ll blame it on the hangover today.
I have no problem with people having differing opinions on the interpretations of aspects of this case where things are in doubt, but I believe that things which can be known should be, and some logical analysis and independent research should be applied to the rest to the extent possible.
1. Hung jury. The public is divided. Likely the jurors will have the same diametrically opposite reactions.
2. Aquittal. What if a very dominant Zimmbot convinces all the others?
Throwing Manslaughter in may have made #2 a long shot, especially as the jury asked for clarification on Manslaughter. I wish race wasn’t an issue for all concerned. Raised as a military brat I the only difference growing up was who burnt faster. It helped being raised on and attending schools on bases/forts with my dad in Special Forces. The camaraderie made rank more of an issue than race until I hit high school.
I hope no matter the verdict, everyone simply wears hoodies to show their support. I don’t want the powers that be to have any reason to show force.
Food for thought.. if Martin in a soft voice said get off – get off and a bang.. is it possible he was telling the girl to get off the phone then closed it. If with his attitude he was talking to Zimmerman I do not think it would be in a soft voice. Whispering while hiding makes sense, confrontation does not.
My Bucking Bronco theory:
TM was walking away then running from GZ. To prevent this asshole from getting away GZ grabs him never to let go. TM begins screaming and struggling to break free. Like a bucking bronc tall Trayvon does not get injured as he bucks. But GZ is not a very good detainer and inadverdantly slams into every tree, sign and sidewalk in the area. He is a passive rider who is unprepared for each move Trayvon makes. Words like agressor, control, victim get blurred because TM is leading with defense and GZ is not letting go. Certainly not self-defense and no reason to shoot. Why the shot? TM couldn’t get away. Need a shrink to explain GZ’s anger problem.
From personal experience x2 – In a fist fight, the second the gun comes out, the fight is over. You don’t challenge the only guy with a gun.
No, don’t think so. The “get off, get off” was not described as being in a soft voice. It happened after the “bump” and she heart “grass sounds” meaning that the microphone was no longer near TM’s mouth so the “get off, get off” was fainter.
GZ leaves out the chase. He admits he went through to Retreat View. Next he describes the scuffle at the “T”. I believe GZ came from the south and grabbed TM near the dog poop station. This is where his keychain flashlight was found. It is quite possible as Trayvon struggled to get out of the grasp that one or both came into contact with the dog station. It is a rigid, stationary object. It seems unlikely that TM would have had the arm freedom or distance needed to punch. If he intentionally slammed GZ into the dog station I think it would be appropriate. Tray should have done anything he wanted to GZ in the name of self-defense. Contact with the dog station could explain the nose injury completely.
“Tray should have done anything he wanted to GZ in the name of self-defense.” I agree with that. Nothing in TM’s history ever indicated that he would be capable of threatening to kill someone. I’ve come to think that it’s plausible that TM could have punched GZ in the nose but only as a self-defense move. Note that the swelling is on GZ’s right side of his nose where TM would have used his LEFT hand to hit. If you were going to attack somebody, I don’t think your first blow would be to use your non dominant hand. So if he was using his LEFT hand to throw a punch, what was he doing with his right hand? I submit that GZ, who’s LEFT-handed, grabbed TM’s right arm first (hence “get off get off!”) to detain him, and TM might have instinctively gotten one punch in (our resident skeptic unitron also posited this theory some time ago.) I hope the jury can put it into perspective that what TM was doing was defending himself from the creepy guy following him. It wasn’t as if he was walking down the street and decided to get in a fight for no reason. I almost don’t care what happened in those two missing minutes, whether they went down or up the dogpath or RVC, TM made an effort to get away by going off the road into the back area of the townhomes. GZ was guilty of reckless endangerment as soon as he go out of his truck.
I’m pretty sure I suggested, as one possible explanation, Zimmerman grabbing Martin by the right arm to hold him for the police and receiving an immediate reflexive strike from Martin’s left fist prior to the release of the “get off” additions to the young lady’s account of what she heard.
If that happens, I think it negates my theory.
Either Zimmerman grabs and Martin immediately, reflexively strikes, or Zimmerman grabs and Martin verbally complains.
Sorry, I added the “get off get off” to the theory above, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that GZ was on top of TM for him to say that. I interpret “get off” to mean “let go of me” at some point in the initial scuffle before the phone shut off. Don’t know if they’re on the ground or waltzing down the sidewalk.
You can be white, wealthy, and educated, but this just makes you look like classless, ignorant trash. SMH.
FWIW: Looks like Instagram (and presumably all other social networks) are easily manipulated…
That’s a half hour photoshop lesson.
Yeah, there may be an automatic generator for IS by now too. I know I’ve seen one for twitter within the past year.
My point — tough to verify the Instagram posting (especially the accompanying message). Something seems “off” when you go to instagram.com/mollywestttt …I took a screw grab and will post later as applicable.
Her original account was shut down I think. Whatever is popping up now is obviously fake.
Yup, she deactivated her account after that hit the media. Now, I think folks are just spoofing her bad move.
Part of a mystery solved today, cell phone toting Jon Manalo confirmed that he saw GZ on the phone. He confirmed chitchatting with GZ about what type of gun he had. Then when the officer came on scene GZ dropped the phone on the ground. Jon very graciously picked it up and put it in GZ’s left pocket, I guess after GZ had been handcuffed. GZ verbally gave Jon his number in order to call Shellie. Aside from letting Jon call Shellie, Officer Smith also did NOT have his gun drawn despite knowing that shots had been fired and seeing the body on the ground before asking GZ who shot him. We know that Smith knows GZ from previous calls, but still, these guys seemed awfully chummy with GZ. And how in the world did Smith just let Jon pick up GZ’s phone and call his wife before the whole situation was assessed? Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think they asked Smith about that.
Smith’s decision to not have his gun out, or his not having made the decision to have it out, or whatever mental process or lack thereof led to him not having his gun in his hand when he came upon the scene occurred before he ever knew Zimmerman was there, much less that he was involved.
And I don’t see how Smith goes about preventing Manalo from making a phone call on Manalo’s own phone, or at least I don’t see what possible legal justification he could offer, or what reason he would have had to want to in the first place.
I could be wrong, but I would think that the dispatcher would have told Smith who made the original NEN call that got upgraded to a “shots fired” situation, which he was advised of when he entered the complex.
It seems like I could make a Trayvon event timeline based on the trial. Most interested in the sequence leading up to the gunshot. The 911 calls overlap with other 1st hand accounts. We have north movements then south movements. It’s becoming clear that all the residents became alarmed by the same series of noises but heard and described them differently. Standing, scuffling 40 feet to the south, then on the ground.
Anyone have this already? say from 7:09:34?
7:11:41 GZ says TM is running Rachel says TM starts to run
7:11:47 TM phone drops off
7:12:06 TM and Rachel reconnect
7:13:39 GZ ends call to police
* 7:15:42 TM phone drops off after Rachel hears TM and GZ words spoken
7:16:11 911 call from Lauer with screams begins
* 7:16:57 SHOT rings out
* 46 seconds plus actual altercation, …GZ an MMA trained fighter “had” to shoot unarmed TM who fought so hard his skittles and can of tea were still in his pocket
GZ on phone told 1st witness on the scene he just hung up from 911…no 911 call
from GZ is in the records
WHO was the first person GZ called when he stood up?? Can’t find GZ phone records put into evidence??anyone?
Sequence needs fleshed out:
GZ chases TM north past W#1
TM: “Why you following me for?”
GZ: “What you doing around here?”
GZ grabs TM to detain him
TM: “Get off, get off”
They scuffle to John Good’s yard
7:16:00 TM loses phone connection
TM begins begging/screaming
7:16:11 Jenna Lauer connects to 911
Blood curdling, horrified, terrified, begging screams. Which is more likely to create these, someone asking for assistance in a detainment or someone with a loaded gun pointed at their heart? Seems obvious to me! Being held would create yells but by the time of those screams we hear on Jeanna’s 911 call the gun was out.
Interesting blog. I didn’t really follow this story after it became such a sensation last year and the only thing I ever felt really strongly about was that Zimmerman should have been charged from the outset. To be honest all the commentary I’ve seen from just about everywhere is garbage and a waste of time.
But I’ve been watching the trial proceedings continuously from Day 1 on live stream (without talking head opinion) and the more I hear the more I doubt Zimmerman’s account of the events of 2/26/2012. I look forward to further discussion of the trial here. Thanks for all the maps and reconstruction of the events.
I’ve listened to the NEN call a few times before, but knowing what I know now from facts brought out the last few days it’s clear Zimmerman is lying.
Notice Zimm began following Tray in his Ridgeline and was still following him 5 minutes later when the two contact.
7:11 Sean, “Are you following him?” Zimm, “Yeah.”
7:15 Rachel, “Trayvon said, Why you following me for?”
I felt from the beginning that Rachel DeeDee was telling the truth because she spoke so genuinely. Now I understand that these “kids” use tough talk as a style. It’s like a fun game for effect to put on airs of being a gangster when you are not. She said something about the words creepy ass cracker not being racist. Well, they are to most people. But, I see that to young kids with style any words can just be fun to say. Sure makes life more intense.
I had to look up the origin of the word “cracker” and apparently it was derived from the sound of slave owner’s “cracking” of the whip. In this context, I don’t think it matters what word he used there, whether it’s “cracker” or “bastard”, the emphasis is on “creepy ass”. West asked Rachael if TM called other people “creepy ass crackers”, and she said “well not, creepy ass”. Yeah, the other “crackers” in TM’s world never creeped him out before.
Defense would like to limit the event to the “fight”. Truth is the creeping out and continuous following is prelude and foreshadowing to the shot. Zimm’s creepy ass state of mind is the only thing that explains the gun. The emotions were fear on Tray’s part and anger for GZ, not the other way around. Rachel is spot on in this. “Yes, sir, Mr. Don!”
First time I ever heard the term “cracker” was from a 70 yr old real estate broker who told me that is what Floridians call themselves. Her family went back to her Grandfather leaving Arcadia area by canoe to doctor Seminoles in Ft Myers area. Didn’t know it was a slur until I used it later and was corrected. Guess it is like the use of the “N” word in the black community. Rachel was genuine and never cracked under the skilled cross s of Mr West who even got on the judges nerves.
There is a state park in Florida commemorating the Cracker trail. Crackers were the Florida version of early white settlers. Today, it is generally used as a mild slur (ironically connoting some perceived racism on the part of its target). I think its introduction in the courtroom was unfortunate. Rachel’s testifying that Trayvon used that word could be seen as adding to her credibility as a witness. I don’t think she’d include that word if she didn’t feel compelled to accurately quote Trayvon. On the other hand, it may detract from jurors’ view of Martin as a victim.
Kinda hope GZ does not testify. He always confuses me. It has been refreshing to get the lowdown from the witnesses. Plus they are clarified from before. Every new detail changes everything a little. I don’t trust w13. Never hear remorse from those close to the murder for not helping Trayvon. Didn’t go assist even before they knew there was a gun.
There seems to be more focus and discussion on race being a motivating factor behind Zimmerman’s actions. Once again the law manipulators (LAWYERS) have been successful in creating that proverbial smoke screen in order to muddy the waters and redirect our focus to areas of controversy and the more controversial the better. This boy’s death had more to do with Zimmerman’s imaged authority and power as a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, that coupled with an over zealous need to prove himself worthy as a candidate for a career in law enforcement. He stepped over the line went to far and someone ended up dying. There is still accountability here. I don’t think race was as much of a motivating factor as its been suggested. It had more to do with the real abuse of a non-existent power Zimmerman thought he had, along with Trayvon Martin being unfamiliar to him, (Zimmerman’s words) throw in a weapon, that could be you on the sidewalk. This makes Zimmerman even more dangerous. Neighborhood Watch is very clear about not confronting individuals let alone brandishing a firearm. The whole “Stand Your Ground Law” is something I would say applied more to Trayvon than Zimmerman. Zimmerman chose to leave the safety of his car to confront Trayvon.
Race was a factor insofar as the Sanford PD and Seminole County State Attorney failed to fully investigate the shooting and bring charges against Zimmerman. We know the previous police chief had at least one documented incident of doing the same thing previously. Even if one can technically argue there was a lack of evidence to prosecute under current statutes the influence of the community is almost always the determining factor, particularly in the case of a dead kid. That’s why we have so many exonerations from DNA testing.
And it’s no mistake that the Zimmerman fanbois are constantly harping this should have never gone to trial. They know if Zimmerman gets the same treatment as most blacks get from the judicial system he’ll get boned. They’re the same people who still whine that OJ got off the “beyond a reasonable doubt” thing but are jumping with glee that the same thing will apply when a black kid is dead.
That being said I agree with you; race wasn’t Zimmermans motivator. But he’s still a piece of crap.
I agree 100% that racism in its purest form is the reason the district attorney was slow to file charges. Had there not been increasing protest,
charges probably would have not been filed. This is the type of covert
racism that a lot of people deny exist or unable to understand.
Thought I heard on ABC News last night that the charge will likely be reduced to manslaughter. Doesn’t the jury get to vote? There is evidence still to come. I think that is media trying to sway the outcome. The networks have too much invested to write the trial off. How would ABC know this? Insider trading?
Great to see your fonts again!
Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but the lesser included charge of Manslaughter is on the table with M-2.
Hey Loree/Blushed! Glad to see you back around. Hope real life has been treating you well. We’re finally in the home stretch. QETNO has been chugging all the beer but I think there’s some left for you. Gonna need it if you’re watching any of West’s cross-examinations.
Working real hard.
Life has been throwing me some curve balls, but I’ve always been able to handle it.
QETNO has left me beer, but I need the liquor cabinet for West.
Should we show the jury the ice cream cone celebration? Remove West from the defense? The tie he had on tells me it was day 2, Tuesday. Children often get their ideas from the parent. So, whose stupidity was West celebrating? Somebody on the stand Tuesday.
I’m likely late to the party but it looks like West is admitting to the photo and his daughter’s picture description…
Charges are not reduced once a trial begins. Instead, and this is quite routine, the jury will have the option to convict of murder two or manslaughter. But that will be cold comfort to Zimmerman because Florida has some very harsh sentencing laws.
Bill Shaeffer, a Florida attorney providing commentary for WFTV, said he’s had cases before Judge Nelson, and that going by what he knows about her, he thinks manslaughter would probably get Zimmerman a 30 year sentence.
Good info — thank you for the comment.
Unless incorrect or I’m missing something, it looks like the most Zimmerman could get for manslaughter is 24.5 years:
Yes, good info. And it should have been included in the discussion long before now instead of all the herpty-derp conspiracy theory nonsense that’s been allowed. We know Zimmerman murdered Trayvon because he’s just another pussy with a gun. What I and everyone else wants to know is how and if he will be punished.
No bullet hole through Trayvon’s button. The fact that the holes were higher up on his shirts might mean GZ was pulling down on TM when he shot him. When the shirts were relaxed the button was directly over the bullet hole. If you were defending yourself from a fucking coon wouldn’t you be pushing him away instead of pulling him closer to you? This indicates to me that George was detaining Trayvon. M-2!
Good point. After seeing the pics from last week’s testimony, I wondered how the bullet hole could be located where it was given the button.
Worth noting: The shot’s vs button’s location may have been discussed before on Bcclist and/or elsewhere but I haven’t read/heard about the probability of this occurring.
Warning: there has been mass confusion between w1 Selene and her sister w2 Suzanne. Their interview files got mis-labeled, at least one of them. Go by the difference in sound of voice. We have only seen Selene on the stand but I’m sure Suzanne will look different, too.
#2 is the one without her contacts or glasses but she remembers what Trayvon was wearing more accurately. Her voice sounds more childlike to me, throat constricted, that candy apple sweet sound like Diana Ross singing. They are originally from India and say “torch” instead of flashlight.
Witness #1 has already testified, correct? As I recall, she said there were movements from south to north and the defense wondered why she didn’t mention this until now.
Yes, that’s what I mean. Some interviews were attributed to the wrong sisters. This occurred to me way back. w1 was downstairs cooking. w2 was upstairs ironing. I think I can distinguish their voices now. Possibly MOM was blindsided because when he heard w1 say left to right he thought he was listening to a w2 recording. But he really didn’t want to hear it because it contradicts GZ.
So, witness #2 didn’t have contacts/glasses on, correct? And, she did (or did not) say in her statements to police that she saw movement from south to north?
As for witness #1, she testified in court to seeing movement from south to north. Had she mentioned this in a recorded statement before? If so, this will be huge. Even if she didn’t note directional movement in her statements, it’s definitely what she testified…to the defense’s dismay.
Have you noticed how many times O’Mara has tried to say the noises they heard *could* have come from the T? Of all people, witness #6 (John Good) was the only witness that I saw who stated he wouldn’t speculate. All other witnesses were essentially forced to say the noises *could* have come from the T. Not sure why the prosecution didn’t object based on speculation.
Personally, I take witnesses’ current statements at face value. I have the old transcripts. Those lawyers ask the same questions over and over. I don’t care about previous interviews and who was present! And they repeat what the witness says too much. They could go twice as fast.
Frankly, I’m a bit let down by the prosecution’s performance and preparedness. Is Florida just going through the motions (pun) to placate Sharpton? I know BCClist will prove murder.
In my opinion, they’ve been lackluster since John Guy’s opening statement. For example, on Friday,
Bernie de la Rionda DEFINITELY needed to ask Lindzee Folgate the following (verbatim):
– Did you note Zimmerman’s head injuries (air quotes) were treatable with warm, soapy water?
– Would you describe Zimmerman’s injuries as life threatening?
Thanks to Gracie from Whonoze’s blog who just posted the link to GZ’s cell phone records just made public.
Click to access June_27_Exhibits_and_Identification_List.pdf
I am reposting my comments below that I wrote on his blog (sorry to those of you who are getting messages from both blogs).
Here we go with the conspiracy theory. So in looking at these records, GZ got a call from another cell phone (indicated by the letter “F”, the only Mobile to mobile call he got in those records) at 6:48pm from a number 407-731-0055. In a google search that number comes up associated with GZ so I’m wondering if that was SZ’s phone number. Does anyone know?
Also, it looks like GZ called NEN back after the shooting? The time there says 19:18 (or 7:18) which would fit the timing of the “bloody cell phone pic”. In other records, it was suggested that the call was placed at 7:20. The call time was only 1 minute and we don’t know if he ever got a chance to talk to anyone at NEN do we?
Does anyone know if there is a site (audio/video) that I can catch up with witness testimony that I missed? I missed Serino testimony and would like to hear it.
@San San B
Here ya go….
Thanks much! I am not able to watch it live all of the time.
@ San San
Your welcome 🙂
I have mixed emotions about today’s testimonies from Detectives (former?) Serino and Singleton. They both seem to be backing down from the suspicions they had of GZ on those interview tapes. It’s been more than a year since their direct involvement in the case, and they both likely have been given grief from their department, especially Serino who, despite claiming to have moved “laterally” as a patrolman by choice, is no longer a detective.
However, I think it was good the jury got to hear in one day all of their recorded interviews with GZ. Since I’m guessing that GZ will never take the stand, this will be as close to a cross examination of the defendant as the jury will hear. I hope the jurors will listen closely, very closely to those interviews again during deliberation.
O’Mara scripted his cross examination of Serino perfectly.
And, the timing just happened to work out so that Serino didn’t have any doubts about Zimmerman’s story at the end of yesterday’s testimony. I’m pretty sure we’ll hear plenty of doubts today.
Well, unless O’Mara ends his cross examination first thing this morning — which would probably be smart. But, Bernie de la Rionda will pounce.
Zimmerman doesn’t know where he lives. I find it VERY odd, that the reason Zimmerman got out of his car was to “Look for a street sign.” There are a total of Three streets in the complex. – 1) Retreat View Circle (go’s around the outside perimeter of the complex) 2) Twin Trees 3) Long Oak Way. – So you mean to tell me as the neighborhood watchman, didn’t know these three streets? One of which he lived on, Long Oaks Way is South and not even close. So he didn’t know that the street was Twin Trees?
If you think that Zimmerman lived on Long Oak, then it is you who do not know where he lived.
It was 1950 Retreat View Circle.
I didn’t say he lived on Long Oak. I knew he lived on Retreat View Circle, I said Long Oak is supposed to be way south (and west) of where the fight took place and shouldn’t be a factor. The only two streets that would be near where he parked his vehicle would either be the main circle (Retreat View) and Twin Trees. Why have to look for a street sign?
“One of which he lived on, Long Oaks Way…”
Well, you certainly made it sound that way.
Just saw this version of the map. Maybe this is why he would be “looking for a street sign?” https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing-v-2.jpg
He loves blaming his horrible memory for everything.
I think Serino help established that Zimmerman’s fear was a part of his unreasonable state of mind at the time. Fear CAN be unreasonable, if you have talked your self into thinking a thing is true, even when it isn’t. He talked himself into thinking that this kid was a danger and up to no good. His irrational fear led him to pull that trigger.
I have a question for anyone who might know. Does this type of gun have a safety? Do people usually have a round in the chamber?
is what is called Double Action Only
There is no external safety, and you can’t pull the hammer back with your thumb to “cock” it.
You work the slide to load a round into the firing chamber, at which point the gun is ready to be fired, except that it has a “hammer block” safety, which means you have to pull the trigger, which has a long travel and a certain amount of resistance–it’s not a “hair trigger”–to disengage the mechanism which blocks the hammer from falling forward, and then keep pulling the trigger to actually cause the hammer to fall forward. This prevents accidental discharge if the gun is dropped or slammed against something.
It is by no means unusual for the owner of one of these to insert a full magazine, work the slide to load the first round, eject the magazine and put another round in it to bring it back to full and re-insert the magazine.
(This is done well beforehand of any anticipated need to use it, not in the dark and the rain while trying to juggle a cell phone and get a flashlight to work)
That way, if you do need to use it, say in self-defense, it’s ready “right now” and can be used with just one hand, and you have the maximum amount of bullets possible available before having to reload.
If you have time to draw a weapon and then mess around with it with both hands getting a round chambered and the safety off before being able to shoot, you probably have time to find alternatives to shooting.
A gun like this is for in case you find yourself in a situation where you don’t have time or alternatives.
Great explanation to those of us who have never held or shot a gun!
Pls tell us, does this gun have any recoil or kickback that might hit you in the nose if you fired it while on your back, with someone on top of you in very near proximity?
I have no idea.
What I know about that gun, and DAO and hammer blocks, I learned by inquiring on gun owner forums, and then checking what I was told against other references.
Thank you for the gun info!
In one of Zim’s statements, he says that he thought that his phone was in his pants pocket, so he went to dig in his pocket and realized that his phone was in his jacket when Trayvon hit him. Is there any possibility that this guy either was flashing his gun or trying to get his gun out immediately? The other possibility is his jacket being completely off during the struggle making his white T-shirt and gun visible to trayvon? As Serino pointed out, I cannot see how he could have fallen backwards immediately and yet he and the victim ended up so far down the dog path. To me this undermines his main point of defense —–that this kid jumped out of the bushes and hit him unprovoked.
What white T-shirt?
I am sorry, I spoke wrong. The shirt was not white, but gray. The point is if that jacket came off at any point, it would be difficult to tell the two apart in the dark.
Happy 4th of July Bcclisters! Cross fingers that the state will be able to pull it all together tomorrow as they start wrapping up the case.
Happy 4th to you and all! Have a happy and safe day! J4TM!!!
I used to live only about 3 miles from where the shooting happened, so I have kind of a unique perspective on it. As far as an examination of the actual discovery goes, my account closely resembles yours, with some minor deviations. I wrote this more than a year ago when the original discovery was made public. You may want to pay particular attention to my comments about the Volusia County ME, which did the autopsy. As was revealed at the trial, according to the lab results, there was no Zimmerman DNA under the fingernails of either hand of the victim, one hand had Treyvon’s blood under the nails, and the other had absolutely nothing. The problem with that finding is how could he not have any blood on the one hand when according to all accounts Treyvon died face down clutching the bullet wound with both hands? The answer is that they cleaned him up because Zimmerman’s DNA under the nails would prove that the wounds on his head were fingernail scratches, and if the wounds are fingernail scratches, then ZImmerman’s head never touched the sidewalk, and if Zimmerman’s head never touched the sidewalk, then his life was never in danger, and if his life was never in danger, then Zimmerman is a murderer. Drop me a line if you like what you see.
Zimmerman’s DNA under Martin’s fingernalls would actually be very good evidence in Zimmerman’s favor.
Zimmerman didn’t have enough hair to grab, so if Martin was trying to hold the actual head firmly enough to basketball it on the sidewalk, his nails would likely have dug into Zimmerman’s scalp.
The state is emphasizing the lack of Zimmerman DNA under Martin’s fingernails to claim Martin did not have hold of Zimmerman’s head.
Interesting take and thank you for the comment. It would take a lot of work (to clean up Trayvon) just to save some manipulative loser’s ass. I’m not sure Zimmerman would be considered worth the effort…you never know, tho.
Here’s the deal, as far as I see it. Zimmerman clearly established his animus towards Martin. First, calling him a drug-addled criminal “up to no good,” and possibly responsible for “recent break-ins in the neighborhood.” Then, saying “shit, he’s running”, “fucking coons” (how some people hear “punks” I can’t imagine), and “yup. These assholes, they always get away.” He then gets out of his truck and follows Martin along the footpath which runs east/west straight between Twin Trees (where his truck was parked) and Retreat View Circle (to the east). Zimmerman gets to the T in the path, about 125 feet from the street he left, and from where the path running north/south behind the houses on either street begins (and runs south from there). He doesn’t see Martin, who had walked a bit down that path to be out of view of the stranger he left sitting in his truck and then continued talking with his GF on his cell phone. Zimmerman then continues east on the path towards Retreat View Circle, ostensibly looking for address markers as well as for Martin. Zimmerman then turns around and begins walking back towards Twin Trees (to the west).
Here’s where I think Zimmerman’s story suffers terminal discrepancy from the known facts of the case. In light of his clearly established animus towards Martin, and in light of Zimmerman being the sole instigator so far of contact between he and Martin (who Zimmerman himself had already described as actively avoiding contact between them, i.e. “he’s running”), he needs to show that, in stark contrast to the roles each had played to that point, Martin inexplicably became the aggressor. Zimmerman claims that as he was returning directly from his brief visit to Retreat View Circle and walking east back towards Twin Trees, Martin surprised him and punched him so hard as to send Zimmerman directly to the ground. This occurred right at the T in the path, and Zimmerman claims he was essentially incapacitated and under Martin from that point until he managed to unholster his pistol to shoot Martin in self-defense.
Martin’s body was found some 50 feet down the north/south path. Martin’s body can be seen in crime scene photographs lying adjacent to the patio partition separating the second and third units down the right side of the path. Zimmerman is lying. It is impossible for events to have unfolded as he claims. Zimmerman came down the path to confront his “asshole” who he didn’t want to “get away.” Rachel was likely recounting with perfect accuracy Martin’s last words. “He’s getting closer. He’s getting really close. WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME FOR?”
Will the prosecutor make that clear for the jury beyond a reasonable doubt? We’ll see.
The version you seem to be suggesting without fully fleshing out would appear to require that Martin be unable to outrun or outmaneuver Zimmerman while both are on foot.
Martin avoided further contact with Zimmerman while Zimmerman was in his truck, in fact running out of Zimmerman’s view. Having done so doesn’t mean he also expected Zimmerman to then exit his truck and track him down. And the fact that Martin then continued his phone conversation with his GF after leaving Zimmerman sitting in his truck is rather inconsistent with him expecting Zimmerman to reappear, to say nothing of actually planning some ambush on Zimmerman.
But that’s all speculation. Zimmerman’s real problem is the mutual exclusivity of his account and where Martin’s body was actually found. It simply could not have occurred as Zimmerman described.
Thank you for the comment (and your scenario seems plausible, at the least).
I used to spend more than a little time perusing the map of the complex and trying to figure out the path(s) taken by Trayvon and by Zimmerman. I finally realized that it really doesn’t matter. As far as Trayvon was concerned, he ran away from and subsequently lost the creepy guy following him. At that point, it wouldn’t have mattered if he stood around somewhere, or sat down, or strolled back and forth along the dog walk while continuing his phone conversation.
Zimmerman’s story of the his pursuit is contradicted by the NEN call and the timing of events. The only truths he told were that he saw Trayvon running, he got out of his vehicle, that he followed the same path taken by Trayvon, and that he understood the dispatcher to mean that he shouldn’t follow “the suspect.”
I don’t believe the State will speculate on the location where the confrontation began, but I do hope BDLR et al emphasize certain points. For example, if the jury chooses to believe Zimmerman’s account of the T confrontation, then I hope they appreciate that Zimmerman was able to get to his feet, could move unimpeded, and that he chose to move southward instead of westward towards his truck. I also hope they understand that, again, if Zimmerman was telling the truth, then his own response to Trayvon was such as to evoke suspicion and fear, and that it was Trayvon who then had the right to ‘stand his ground.’
Just think, if Zimm had said, “I have a gun” or brandished his gun . . .
wait, Trayvon did see the gun! and either Tray was pulling away, Zimm was holding him in position to be shot, or both. So, the fight was over, Trayvon was being detained, police on the way, and George the hero. Shot not necessary.
Legally he *might* have been able to say “I’ve got a gun”, but if he’d actually “brandished” it, he would have been in violation of the law that allowed him to have a concealed carry permit, and probably about a dozen other laws as well, unless, at a minimum, he could prove that brandishing it was absolutely necessary to protect himself from an imminent attack, and maybe not even then.
My knowledge of Florida gun law is rather limited, but they don’t let you pull one out and wave it around.
Do you know if the officers testified regarding whether or not their sirens were blaring? If so, Zimmerman knew help was on the way/there.
“Do you know if the officers testified regarding whether their sirens were blaring? If so, Zimmerman knew help was on the way/there.”
How far away can you hear a siren?
How far away can you hear a siren if you’re on the ground in the middle of a frantic struggle where at least one of you is screaming and hollering?
W11’s call connects at 7:16:11 pm ( 45 seconds before the gunshot ), so the first siren isn’t happening until at least 10 seconds later, and if Smith was the first to arrive, then he was closer than anyone else, but it was probably as late as 30 seconds before the gunshot that he got the word to turn on the bubble gum machine and floor it.
In the short time Zimmerman would have had before the gunshot, he was probably too preoccupied to notice the siren.
You can hear sirens from quite a distance. Good point regarding not being able to hear them over screaming noises though.
It’s not just were they close enough to hear but whether George might have been too preoccupied with something else to have noticed them as well.
My guess is that Zimmerman would be paying attention to his “future team squadron’s” arrival. Didn’t he say something like Sanford PD always took too long to show up? Unlikely to hear much over the screams tho.
I think I “gave up” after drawing my first two maps because — as you said — none of the routes matter the second Zimmerman pursued an unarmed teenager.
This morning, Sabrina Fulton testified to hearing her son screaming on the 911 tape. O’Mara asked her if she “hoped” that it was her son screaming, because if it wasn’t then George Zimmerman would be innocent. Really, no mother “hopes” to have to hear their own son screaming. As a dignified lady, she kept it together.
Couldn’t get the evidence locker open. Now that’s secure!
It’s not that if it was not Trayvon doing the screaming that George would be innocent, but rather that if it was not Trayvon screaming that it would have been George screaming because of what Trayvon was doing to him, and she would not want to think of her son as doing something like that.
A subtle difference, but nevertheless one with a distinction.
Ok, you may be right in how the lawyer phrased the question. It’s just that if I were in Sabrina’s shoes, I’d have barked back at him. Regardless, this screaming and yelling for help business just really gets my goat, because I really sounds to me like there are two people’s voices in that tape. (of course, my only certification in voice identification is having 2 ears). I actually believe it was GZ yelling for help from a very early moment in the tussle, not because he thought his life was in danger at that point but that, according to his own words (on Sean Hannity I believe) that he was yelling because he knew the police were near. In the re-enactment tape which he did just the following day, when he was still being coddled by the police, he probably thought it would seem reasonable to the cops that he jumped up onto TM’s back to spread his arms out to check for a weapon and ask for a neighbor to help him “restrain this guy”, i.e. the suspect. I think the State actually knows that some of the “help me” yells were coming from GZ. But they don’t want to take the risk of going against the normal person’s thinking (i.e., non cop wannabe person) that if you’re yelling for help, you must be the helpless underdog. So they can’t present it that way and just asked the family witnesses if that’s their loved one “screaming”. I’m betting that Sabrina hears her son in that loud shriek before the gunshot, and the Zimmerman’s hear GZ in the ‘help me’s”. But no one asked them to listen to each sound separately, did they? So as far as the jury is concerned, I think those testimonies just have to cancel each other out.
I’m not sure they could have gotten either family to be objective enough to listen through one little piece at a time and go “Okay, that one’s him, this one’s not, this next one I’m not sure, this one here is definitely him, no doubt in my mind at all, this next one not sure….”
Of course not, there’s no objectivity from a family member in front of the jury in a murder trial. But just for the sake of finding the truth, theoretically you could ask people who really know the people involved and play them the isolated sounds on the tape WITHOUT the gunshot at the end, and ask in which of those sounds do you recognize your friend/family member, and how positive are you? Give each sound a rating and take an average. Of course, you’d expect that they’d more likely identify their own friend/family member, but the results should fall into some pattern.
This after the voice expert (also a prosecution witness) said that recording is not good enough. He will be called again by defense. For one side he says you can’t tell it’s GZ. For the other he says you can’t tell if it was TM.
So, it will be decided by family vote. Gladys and her brother say it is Zimm.
I found the Uncle’s account sketchy. Hopefully they don’t find out that he was blogging or posting regarding Zim. Unless he lived with Zim for a considerable amount of time at some age, it isn’t likely that he can tell if it was him screaming. I remember a study where mothers had to identify if it was there baby crying or another baby. The accuracy of the mothers was not very good.
I think after many years though, it becomes easy to identify voices in a normal range, but I think the closest you are to that individual the more likely you are to recognize the voice through multiple ranges. If you are a scientist and you look at how much mother’s get things wrong, it becomes statistically unlikely that an uncle would get this right. I think siblings and parents would be the better choice to put on the stand. I suspect that they couldn’t use Papa Zimmerman because he was posting and blogging about GZ’s case on a number of sites early on.
I think the uncle will backfire if the jurors are thinking logically, a non-immediate family member was a very bad idea. Why not the sister?
I think George may have been screaming to get help to hold TM down, as he pointed out again and again. I wish the state had gone this route, because it would also explain why the screaming stops when the gun goes off. I think GZ got mad because he got his butt kicked for having really bad judgement. However, I do think that he was using his hands to hold on to TM and TM was trying make him let go. There is no other explanation for why GZ would not have just pushed him off or given TM defensive wounds.
Morning all! Closing argument day finally. It’s been a wild ride hasn’t it? I’ve found this trial a bit anti-climatic, a bit frustrating at times, but it is what it is. This morning, Mr. West showed up a couple of minutes late to court and O’Mara and BDLR are nowhere to be seen, both preparing their arguments, I suppose. The order of business this morning is to iron out the instructions to jurors. They just recessed for a half hour so that the defense and prosecution can have a pow-wow over that.
It’s been a wild ride, for sure. Definitely looking forward to sentencing day. This trial — the first I’ve followed — showed me the ins/outs of high profile cases and I can’t say I’m impressed by our judicial system…at all. Thanks again for your comments/participation over the past 1+ years!
I’ve enjoyed this blog, thanks for hosting! It was my first high profile case also.
More than one theory can be consistent with the evidence. GZ continues to keep us in the dark. The mistake he made or the intention should land him in prison to protect the public in the future. Solitary is expensive! The screams of bloody murder tell me the gun was out 40 seconds before the shot. Tray would not bang the head of an apprehender with a gun. That tells me all injuries were incidental to the struggle except the gunshot.
I wish the prosecution could have stated their theory stronger and clearer.
Let’s just hope the states rebuttal will take it home and tie loose ends (but not gonna hold my breath for that though.)
Great point! I fully believe the gun was out as well.
“To the living we owe respect, to the dead, we owe the truth” – John Guy, Prosecutor, St. of Florida, 7/12/2013.
Cheers to that! Now, jury women, please return the verdict that speaks that and allows me to prepare my celebratory “we beat ignorance and arrogance” swirl cones!
Hmmm… after 1+ day of deliberation, the jury has just asked for clarification of manslaughter. The court is in recess for a half hour….pins and needles. This jury may not know that manslaughter carries a 30 year sentence due to the use of a firearm.
GZ found not guilty.
It was a bit weird that GZ didn’t show a bit of emotion. The whole Z family where all smiles. Shellie was in tears of joy, they were all hugging each other. I saw papa Z reach over and awkwardly rub GZ’s back, but he didn’t even look at his dad or any of his family. Weird.
He sure had that shit eating grin after the jury left.
Thanks for everything over the past 15+ months. 😦
Cheer up, now you can reclaim your blog and muse about something more cheerful. I’ll be signing off now. Best of luck to you and all bcclisters.
Mind blowing verdict! Unsettling as heck. I would have found him guilty of something. Do you believe in KARMA? Probably not the end of this yet. Deliberation was too short. I think the state was just placating Jesse Jackson. Wasn’t O.J. tried again? In the next trial we will get it all straightened out and there will be justice for Trayvon.
Oh yeah, where did that other passport end up?
Thanks for the participation/comments over the past 15+ months. I hope you’re right that one day there will be justice for Trayvon Martin.
facts of the case: http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/06/getting_the_facts_straight_in_the_zimmerman_case.html
Lets look at the facts of the case shall we. One, zimmerman was on phone for 4 minutes. Ample time for Trayvon to continue walking home or running home or call his dad or 911. Zimmerman said he took off running. if that is the case. there is no way zimmerman being heavyset sitting in his car could get out and chase down trayvon. NO WAY. Zimmerman said as he was walking back to his vehicle, he heard trayvon say “You have a problem”. Zimmerman stated that he “TURNED AROUND” and said no which means Trayvon came up from behind Zimmerman. Zimmerman then stated trayvon said ” You do now and suckerpunched him”. We ALL know it was zimmerman calling for help because i know of NO ONE that is going to be on top of someone beating the tar out of them and call for help. What, trayvon was calling for help saying ” help, help, someone come quick, im beating the tar out of this creepy looking cracker? “. i think not. Then according to Zim, trayvon said ” You gonna Die tonite” thats when zim shot him. Now, zim took a LIE DETECTOR TEST and PASSED. The eyewitness states zim was getting beat down, the lie detector test showed zimmerman was telling the truth. What the hell more do the “idiot” justice for trayvon want? you WANT people to just let black thugs beat them to death and not do anything about it? trayvon chose to confront zim and beat him up and wanted to kill him but THANKFULLY zim was able to defend himself from being killed. People that dont accept the facts. They want a reason to scream racist or justice which in reality is just an excuse to hide their underlying racism that they have.
It was not a lie detector, it was a voice stress analyzer.
Neither actually detects lies, of course, just physiological changes, but they monitor different phenomena.
Oh no, BccList has been infected by trolls I think.
I knew nothing about the Zimmerman trial until this week. First thing I learn is the verdict and people’s reactions. This made me curious. My web searching eventually lead me to this blog, and it had me so hooked that I spent all day & night reading it. I appreciate the thoughtful investigations of the creator and most of the comments. I enjoying reading the various perspectives and envisioning what truly may have happened. Thank-you for doing this.
Thank you for the comment. It means a lot!
Here’s my thoughts of what I think really happened. George drove north along the west portion of Retreat View Cir to go to the main entrance. Along the way, he saw Trayvon crossing the street, and he stopped to let him pass. Something about the way Trayvon walked appeared odd to Zimmerman, so after he continued along Retreat View Cir, he pulled into a parking space in front of the club house. There, he observed Trayvon as he walked. Upon seeing Trayvon turn south on Twin Trees, Zimmerman pulled out of the parking space, and he drove to Twin Trees, went beyond the 2nd bend in the road, made a u-turn, and the drove back up the street to where he could get a good view of Trayvon. Once there, he called police non-emergency line. At this point, Trayvon mentioned to his gf that he thinks he is being watched. Afterwards, the pursuit illustrated in the blog’s maps started.
I think the pursuit was somewhat a blend of
The earlier map indicated Trayvon headed towards the back entrance better than the newer version, imo. Perhaps Zimmerman drove backwards in his car in order to observe Trayvon walk down the street. At that point, Trayvon freaked about being followed, and then he started running between buildings towards the sidewalk. To keep him in view, Zimmerman exited his car, and then he ran along his nearest pass thru the buildings to the same sidewalk, but he lost sight of Trayvon.Afterwards, he progressed to Retreat View Circle, and he walked down the street. Then, both parties follow the routes of the more recent map.
When listening to the witness that recorded the screams for help, I noticed an abrupt shreek shortly before the gunshot. I think that was when Zimmerman pulled out his gun. At that point, Trayvon likely tried to wrestle the gun away from Zimmerman, but failed.
Go to 2:47 in the 911 call, you can hear him start to knock on someones door. At 3:19 I definitely hear Zimmerman say to some unknown person “keep an eye on my truck” Zimmerman is very crafty to say the least. What he’s doing for a chunk of that 911 convo is what I call: “talking in circles”. I believe the 911 call is to set the stage. He is stalling for time as he “rhythmically” knocks on someone’s house door, he slips the “keep an eye on my truck” in as he’s giving the dispatcher the location. Note that he has told the dispatcher REPEATEDLY where the truck is. The dispatcher is none the wiser either. As he wants us to believe he is giving the location of his truck to the officer or operator he is really telling this unknown person where his truck is, & to watch it for him. This is key evidence to me because it means that there is another eye witness that isn’t speaking up. My best guest is it was John Good. He was the only condo in proximity to see the truck. Also, I believe Zimmerman snuck up on Trayvon & tried to detain him, Trayvon resisted this random citizens arrest, & Zimmerman was more than willing to end his life because of it, he was NOT gonna let this guy go. He wanted to be a hero, by any mweans necessary. That’s why he brought his loaded gun with him to handle who he calls in his 911 call, “a kid”. I also hear him say “effing c–ns” plain as day, it’s right before the dispatcher asks “are you following him” in fact it’s almost like the dispatcher’s response to the “effing c–ns” was “are you following him?” I think the sick-est issue in this case isn’t race however, that’s 2nd. I think it’s that he KNEW he was a KID. Zimmerman has a terrible criminalI definitely hear the “keep an eye on my truck” Zimmerman is very crafty to say the least. What he’s doing for chunk of that convo is what I call: “talking in circles”. He is stalling for time as he “rhythmically” knocks on someone’s house door, he slips the “keep an eye on my truck” in as he’s giving the dispatcher the location. Note that he has told the dispatcher REPEATEDLY where the truck is. The dispatcher is none the wiser either. As he wants us to believe he is giving the location of his truck to the officer or operator he is really telling this unknown person where his truck is, & to watch it for him. This is key evidence to me because it means that there is another eye witness that isn’t speaking up. My best guest is it was John Good. He was the only condo in proximity to see the truck. Also, I believe Zimmerman snuck up on Trayvon & tried to detain him, Trayvon resisted this random citizens arrest, & Zimmerman was more than willing to end his life because of it, he was NOT gonna let this guy go. He wanted to be a hero, by any mweans necessary. That’s why he brought his loaded gun with him to handle who he calls in his 911 call, “a kid”. I also hear him say “effing c–ns” plain as day, it’s right before the dispatcher asks “are you following him” in fact it’s almost like the dispatcher’s response to the “effing c–ns” was “are you following him?” I think the sick-est issue in this case isn’t race however, that’s 2nd. I think it’s that he KNEW he was a KID. He also had that gun drawn as he was looking for Trayvon. he’s no Chuck Norris, he has no balls, there is no way he didn’t have that gun already as he is whispering, & hiding in stealth mode & all. Zimmerman has a terrible criminal record. He’s assaulted policemen before, just think if they would have shot HIM?? Another point I think people are missing is that he was shot in his dad’s backyard basically, he had almost made it home through the maze of the complex, in the dark, in the rain, on foot. Anywho, I’d love to know who this mystery person is that was watching the truck. Why didn’t they help? Why didn’t they call the cops?? Why didn’t Zimmerman enlist their help, or at least alert them that there was a some presumably dangerous dude in the vicinity?? record. He’s assaulted policemen before, just think if they would have shot HIM?? Another point I think people are missing is that he was shot in his dad’s backyard basically, he had almost made it home through the maze of the complex, in the dark, in the rain, on foot. Anywho, I’d love to know who this mystery person is that was watching the truck. Why didn’t they help? Why didn’t they call the cops?? Why didn’t Zimmerman enlist their help, or at least alert them that there was a some presumably dangerous dude in the vicinity??
Also analysis of his sweatshirt & hoodie proved that he was shot while someone was pulling them both away from his body. (The holes line up on both hoodie & sweatshirt but not his chest. I believe Zimmerman held him still while he shot him. He wanted him, dead or alive.
Zimmerman knew to tell the story from Trayvon’s point of view, which is why there are inconsistencies. Jeantel’s testimony was that Trayvon said “oh shit this nigga right behind me” which means he would have been the one to turn around. Trayvon thought he had lost Zimmerman, not expecting that his creepy ass would go all navy seal on his ass & be hiding in the bushes. A little boy witness who was walking his dog, testified that Zimmerman was on the ground by hisself prior to the shot. My guess, he was hiding.
Thank you for the comment. The tapping noises have been discussed here before. I’m not sure what they are but my best guess is that he’s trying to get his flashlight to work. Why does somebody not following an unarmed teen need a flashlight though? Hmmmm
“Why does somebody not following an unarmed teen need a flashlight though? Hmmmm”
Because it was dark?
Sidewalks are easy to find — especially if you’re familiar with the area — regardless of the conditions.
Now, if you want to follow somebody in the dark, a flashlight (or, in Zimmerman’s case, two flashlights) totally makes sense.
No one seemed to question why he had the flashlight at the ready when he jumped out a second after saying “shitake, he’s running”
It’s too bad it was never heard in court how GZ would patrol the area with his headlights off or how he would walk around checking the area with his flashlight. Nothing wrong with aspiring to become a police officer, but pretty fucking weird when you’re acting like one when you aren’t actually one.
@Qetno, I know huh? And because it was NEVER brought up in court the issue of his patrolling, O’Mara was bold enough to say to the jury something like “There was no witness that testified that he patrolled the neighborhood that night or any other night” That jury also never heard how “In 2003, he gave chase when he saw a man steal a television from a supermarket, following the shoplifter until police could catch up. Zimmerman followed another man a year later, saying the man had spit on him.” Of course these are only the incidents that were reported. How many other people has he followed?
I was surprised that they never even bothered to ask JL about her one statement where she said GZ would confront someone he believed didn’t belong in the neighborhood. Frankly, though, I don’t think any of this would matter to this jury since they excused all of GZ’s words and actions.
The jury clearly “identified” with GZ and the “plight” of the neighborhood. I think the woman who testified to being burglarized while she was a home with her baby really made a big impression on the jury. O’Mara asked her if it was weird or anything that GZ came to her aid, and she said “no”, but they spoke like 20 times. I dunno, I see the other side of the coin, and that’s plain weird. It’s not like they became friends and hung out. They spoke 20 times about the burglary. I mean, real cops probably don’t have that much contact with victims during their investigations. He clearly got a kick out of playing wannabe cop coming to the rescue.
Trayvon “no limit nigga” Martin got what he deserved. How many times has a black man shot an unarmed person? 10, 20, 50 times already this week? But no attention to these murders? Look, the little punk ass got what he needed, an ass whooping. Take notice all you honky hating niggas, we white folk be packing some heat now days. “I will stand my ground”
“But he had as much right to “stand his ground” as Zimmerman.” Does anyone here understand the stand your ground law had nothing to do with this case? When TM was shot he was on top of GZ. Since GZ can’t retreat there is no stand your ground defense as a person is relieved of the duty to retreat by the stand your ground law. Your article was full of assumptions and speculation. Do you know the location of the shooting and the position of GZs vehicle at the time of the shooting? What was TM doing while GZ was on the phone? GZ would have had to prove he defended himself legally and did not instigate anything. How did GZ prove that in court?
1) Yes, I/we all know these locations.
2) Walking fast, running, or trying to get into his locked house…depending on what/when you mean.
Stand your ground doesn’t apply because you can’t cause fear, harass, stalk, etc someone and then claim SYG when you decide to shoot them.
“GZ would have had to prove he defended himself legally and did not instigate anything.”
Actually the prosecution had the burden of proof that it was otherwise.
Also, the way Florida’s law on self defense and use of deadly force and such works is that even if he had instigated something, if he was ceasing and desisting and trying to withdraw from the fight and the other party continued, he could then act legally in self-defense.
We know, or at least think we do, the location of Zimmerman’s truck (where it was parked) from the testimony of Eloise Dilligard, but not which way it was pointed.
Unfortunately no one thought to arrange for me to cross-examine her.
We know which way he parked.