Two NEW Maps of the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Chase

Back in 2012, I posted these 2 maps hypothesizing George Zimmerman’s pursuit of Trayvon Martin (including timing from Zimmerman’s call to police)…

A month or so ago, I received an email (not from a bcclist commenter) asking if I considered the option that Zimmerman arrived at Retreat View Circle and headed south (instead of walking back west towards the T).

While I originally suggested Trayvon may have taken this route home, I never drew out a variation of Zimmerman pursuing in such a manner. So, there are 2 new maps below — the 1st suggests Trayvon reached home via the inner path and the 2nd suggests he took Retreat View Circle.

Map 3.1 from 6/27/2013…


Map 3.2 from 6/27/2013…


Why are these 2 maps (and this one) so intriguing?

  • At least 2 witnesses have stated they saw shadows running from south to north before the scuffle began and the shot was fired.
  • Zimmerman has 2+ minutes to account for from when his call ended with police to when the scuffle with Trayvon Martin began. Any of the maps depicting a south to north chase account for this gap in time (since it would have taken time for Zimmerman to get from north to south on Retreat View Circle).
  • Brandy Green – Tracy Martin’s girlfriend – stated the day after the murder that Trayvon was sitting on her porch and then somebody shot him up by the T.

Note: The above is a one off blog posting during George Zimmerman’s trial. This forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

430 thoughts on “Two NEW Maps of the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Chase

  1. You know this was my worst fear that he had indeed made it home only to be chased down and shot to death.Sad!!

    • He made it home but didn’t go in. He had about a min and 45 seconds to get to the apt after the dispatcher said”we don’t need you to do that”, after gZ had lost sight of him. He spotted GZ at the T, saw him go past the T and ran back to the T to ambush him on his way back to the truck. That is the only scenario that makes sense.

        • He didn’t know that GZ was armed. He liked to fight. He has bragged on social media about the kid he beat up , and how he didn’t bleed enough and how he would have to fight him again . He was po’d that GZ looked at him and later followed him from the clubhouse to the sidewalk in his vehicle, evidenced by his circeling around it. He wasn’t afraid to apprach him then, he knew he could take him , especially with the element of surprise.

        • we know that Zimmerman was following trayvon, we don’t know that he was pursuing. How do you know that he was fleeing the entire time. If that is the case. how did he wind up right back to where he started running from essentially.

        • Right and for 2 of those 4 minutes GZ was still on the phone with 911, and it is obvious that not only had he lost TM, for 2 of those 4 minutes he was OBVIOUSLY not following anyone. TM had 2 minutes to get inside the apt after GZ lost him while gZ was still on the phone , and another 2 minutes after that to get inside the apt or just stay where he was (according to RJ “right by” the apt} GZ never would have seen him again if he had not chosen to double back to the T to assault him.

          • Zimmerman was on the phone for 2 of the four minutes? TRAYVON WAS ON THE PHONE FOR FOUR OF THE FOUR MINUTES. So if being on the phone means something then it means GZ was the attacker.

            • My point is that TM had 4 minutes to get into the apartment which should have only taken him about 45 seconds if he were running away from GZ (instead of using the whole 2 minutes that GZ wasn’t even following him to double back and wait for him ) It makes no sense that TM was still in the same area where GZ had lost sight of him 4 minutes later. The ONLY thing that makes sense is that TM did go all the way back to the apt (like Rachel said he did) and THEN after GZ hung up his call and started waking back to his truck TM had run all the way back to the other end of the sidewalk to ASSAULT him. It doesn’t matter when his connection to his call with RJ ended, the point is that for the first half of the time that GZ was supposedly chasing him down, he was calmly talking to the dispatcher , obviously not following anyone and had told them that he had lost sight of TM.

            • My point is you already proved that GZ was the aggressor. TM was on the phone during the time you psychos have him doubling back or hiding in bushes. How can you ambush someone while engageed in a convo? GZ understands this, that’s why he ended his call but didn’t go back to his vehicle. Its stupid to place TM at the clubhouse and then give him 4 minutes to make it home when GZ said on Hannity that TM didn’t run, he only skipped away. Further, the reason why your story sounds stupid is because GZ claimed TM was running for the back entrance. Um, quick question, why would GZ haul ass to the T to keep an eye on. someone heading for the back? So the stupidty lies in believing he ever ran to the T to begin with.

            • People can walk Tand chew gum and talk on the phone at the same time. TM had an earpiece. He wasn’t talking to RJ the entire time.. The call cut off and she called him back after she says he told her that GZ was “following” him and he was right by hid daddy’s gf’s house, and she called him back and he told her again that he was “right by his daddy’s gf’s house. The call was still connected as he was making his way back to the T to confront GZ, and he was able to continue his conversation with her because GZ wasn’t anywhere near him until the very end when HE confronted GZ (per RJ’s testimony).
              The four minutes in question started from the time GZ got out of the truck and lost sight of TM , TM was AT THE T when GZ lost sight of him, NOT at the clubhouse. GZ ended his conversation with 911 because he was done with the conversation, he arranged to meet the cop to show him which way TM had run, When he saw TM turn down the T he assumed he was running for the back entrance because that road leads to the road right there at the entrance. He WAS returning to his truck after he hung up with 911, may have been looking around to try to make sure TM wasn’t still around but not actively pursuing him because he had lost him 4 minutes before that and didn’t have a clue that he was still around. So GZ is walking down the sidewalk at the top of the T on the way back to his truck and that is where TM jumped him. You cannot explain how RJ places him 100 yards away (right by his daddy’s apt) and then by stating that she heard the conversation before the altercation places him BACK at the T, which means he HAD TO HAVE DOUBLED BACK.

    • Had what she said been true, then why didn’t I hear this during her testimony at the trial. That would make a different trial outcome, if it were true. Why didn’t he tell his friend on the phone, yeah I was sitting on my porch when this guy started watching me so I was afraid and went inside? It doesn’t make logical sense.

  2. Blood stain on the garage door frame at Manalo’s? Maybe Manalo starter up one of his cars and gave gz a quick lift to the back gate, turning a 2minute walk into a 20 second ride.

  3. Yes it looks like he made it home. Zimmerman must have followed him and attempted to detain Trayvon. Trayvon must have pulled away and attempted to escape towards the T. Sad to see Taffee making a fortune off of talking over everyone on every show on HLN.

    • That makes no sense, if GZ had gone all the way around the front of the apts on Retreat View Circle, which there really wasn’t enough time , it would have taken anywhere from a minute and a half and 2 minutes to walk that far, and it would have had to be after he hung up from 911, If GZ walked down Retreat View Circle looking for someone he had lost sight of for over 2 minutes, he probably would have gone to the back gate because that is where he thought TM was headed, and even if he had turned the corner and gone to the dogwalk, then TM would noth have seen him coming and would not have had time to have a discussion with RJ about how the man was still following him and how he wasn’t going to run because he was right by the apt, GZ would have appeared to have come from nowhere, and the idea that he would have run back to the T to escape him makes no sense. This theory does not fit the timeline.

      • it would have taken anywhere from a minute and a half and 2 minutes to walk that far, and it would have had to be after he hung up from 911

        There’s nothing that says Zimmerman had to finish his call while standing still. He could have been walking South on RVC while talking to the operator. In fact, had he ended the call while still at the intersection of the footpath and RVC, he wouldn’t have asked that the police call him when they got there. He was only 300 feet from his truck.

        • The key word is “walking”, if he were walking he never should have been able to catch up with TM. He was still walking, but walking donw the sidewalk at the top of the T. If you really look at the timelines of both GZ’s 911 call compared with Rachel’s calls when they cut off, you would see that TM was telling RJ that he was already close to the apt before GZ even got out of the truck. RJ goes on to say that TM told her he lost the guy and was right by the apartment. He told her all of that BEFORE her phone cut off at 7:11:47 pm, ,ONE second before GZ even gets out of his truck at 7:11:48pm , so that means that TM didn’t even know that GZ even got out of the truck when he first told her that he was RIGHT BY the apt. She calls him back at 7:12:06, and he is still telling her that he is RIGHT BY the apartment, then he says “OH SH1T” and tells her the man is “following” him agian. Just one second after she called TM back is when George is talking to dispatch and they ask him his name and he says “he ran”. So at 7:12:07 we have GZ way back up at the T and TM RIGHT by the apartment. Apparently TM saw GZ as he crossed the T, and said “oh shit” and then decided to go 100 yards back to the T to ambush him. There is no other explanation with the timeline. None whatsoever. Yeah he saw the “creepy azz cracka” way down there at the T and decided he was going to teach him a lesson..

          • What took Zimmerman 2+ minutes to walk from Retreat View Circle to the T? It’s less than 100 feet.

            Trayvon Martin liked to fight? How about the guy that enrolled in MMA classes, started a bar fight with an undercover officer, and lost his “job” playing security guard for college parties because he was loco?

            Also, isn’t this a more accurate timeline than what you’ve been referencing?


            • The timeline I have been looking at is the one the defense put into evidence, it would have been objected to by the prosecution if it were inaccurate. That link you posted is giving different info from Rachel than what she actually said in her testimony., or in her statement to the state attorney.
              GZ wasn’t in any big hurry to get back to his truck. He hung up from dispatch and got the address for the officer, and started walking back. He thought TM has already exited the complex, because as we know those “aholes alwaysget away”. We don’t know exactly when the altercation occurred , or how long it had been going on before the connection was broken , so it may not have been a full 2 minutes.

              That GZ years ago stepped in to help a friend who was being restrained by someone who he didn’t know was a cop busting underaged drinkers, does not mean he liked to fight, If you listened to the testimony today , you’d know that per the trainer at the gym, GZ was taking classes for exercise to loose weight and signed up for the only ones available when he was not working or in class, and that he really sucked at both of them.

            • Let’s start by making sure Zimmerman’s call to police is timed out correctly. This is what I have. Please provide a link if it is incorrect…

              7:09:34 = Zimmerman’s call with police connects.

              7:10:29 = Trayvon leaves the clubhouse/mailboxes and walks east on Twin Trees.

              7:11:03 = Trayvon passes Zimmerman’s westwardly facing truck on Twin Trees — the vehicle is pointed towards the clubhouse with the headlights on.

              7:11:41 = Zimmerman says, “Shit, he’s running” away from him.

              7:11:45 = Zimmerman opens his Ridgeline’s door and starts pursuing Trayvon on foot.

              7:12:22 = Zimmerman says, “He ran” away from him.

              7:13:41 = Zimmerman hangs up with police.

              Maps I’ve drawn…

            • 6:54:16 Call between RJ and TM begins
              7:09:?? GZ spots TM at 1460 Retreat view circle, drives about 400ft parks in front of the clubhouse.
              7:09:35 GZ’s call to non-emergency connects
              7:10:21 GZ tells 911 that that TM is near the clubhouse and staring at him.
              Seconds later TM turns the corner at the clubhouse and per RJ goes to the mailbox, about 50 feet down the sidewalk, GZ pulls his truck around the corner at Twin Tree to the sidewalk, see’s
              TM going up the sidewalk at the top of the T and then turn around and come back toward him.
              7:10:30 Tells dispatcher Yeah, now he’s coming toward me, He’s coming to check me out, etc.
              7:11:01 Dispatcher says Ok just let me know if he does anything , OK
              7:11:02 GZ says Please get an officer over here
              7:11:04 Dispatcher says “Just let me know if he does anything else, OK
              7:11:40” GZ says “Sh*t, he’s running.
              7:11:41 Dispatcher: “He’s running, which way is he running.
              7:11:43 GZ unbuckles seatbelt, opens car door.
              7:11:47 RACHEL’S CALL ENDS . According to her testimony what she said happened BEFORE her call ended is that TM told her The N*gga is now following me” and she told him to run, and he told her that he wasn’t going to run because he was right by his daddy’s gf’s apt. (BEFORE GZ EVEN GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK)
              7:11:48 Door shuts and GZ says “owards the entrance of the neighborhood”Dispatcher says “Which
              Entrance is he heading toward? ”
              7:11:57 Dispatch asks “Are you following him” he answers yes, and they tell him “We don’t need you to do that and he says OK
              7:12:06 RACHEL RECONNECTS WITH TM she says that when he calls her back he tells her he’s lost the man and he is right by the apt.
              7:12:07 Dispatch asks GZ his name, and he says George, and says “He Ran” indicating that TM was nowhere in sight. I’m speculating that he was probably at the T, looking down the sidewalk and not seeing him.
              7:13:40 GZ’s call with Non-Emergency Ends. .
              7:15:43 Rachel’s call with TM disconnects.
              So as you can see, going by Rachel’s testimony, at the point where RJ is saying that TM tells her that GZ is now folloing him, he’s referring to GZ pulling his vehicle around to near the sidewalk. he’s already telling her before that call cuts off that he’s near the apt, GZ doesn’t get out of the truck until that call ended, which means that TM did not even know that GZ was out of the truck, and that GZ had completely lost sight of him before he got out of the truck, by saying yes when the dispatcher asked “are you following him”, he could only mean that he was going in the same direction trying to see which way he went. TM must have spotted him from the other end of the sidewalk when GZ crossed the T and possibly looked down the sidewalk, Rachel says he says “O sh*t, he’s following me again, she tells him to run and he says he’s not going to run because he right by the apt. Then in her statement to the state attorney she says ABOUT TWO MINUTES later, he’s out of breath, talking low (whispering) saying the man was getting close but he wasn’t going to run, and she says she knew he wasn’t going to run because he was out of breath, and then she hears him confront GZ etc etc….. That could only mean that after TM spotted GZ, he ran back to the T, knowing he would have to come back that way to get to his truck, while whispering to RJ, he could hear him or see him approaching the T, and tells RJ he’s getting closer…. then he jumps out of the shawdows to confront him.

          • The only explanation that makes sense to me is the same one presented by gringz. Trayvon is 300 feet away at the house when he sees GZ crossing left to right at the top of the T. Trayvon can see that George is attempting to follow but still doesn’t know where Trayvon is. Trayvon knows George will have to retrace his steps to get back to his truck, so Trayvon decides to ambush George on the way back by hiding in the bushes. George is told not to follow and begins his retreat. Trayvon is angry that George was trying to follow him and takes it as a personal insult as indicated by the language Trayvon uses to describe George … (ie “creepy ass cracker”). Trayvon confronts George and throws the first punch (we know George was not a fighter, so he would be unlikely to confront or attack). George takes a half minute or so of a steady beating while on his back,and while rolling side to side he finally gets his hand on his gun at his right buttock and pulls it, and shoots Trayvon point blank. When you’re straddling a guy and beating him MMA style, an inexperienced opponent will very soon believe that he has no other recourse to save his life than to end the beating by whatever means available. Dee Dee stated Trayvon was at the house, Goode saw Trayvon on top (the only credible eye witness), the police arrive and see George’s broken nose, banged head and grassy back. Zimmerman was actually the victim of an unwarranted aggressive act of an angry indignant Trayvon. It is not illegal to follow, to report suspicions or to fail to identify yourself as a Neighborhood Watchman (given that George only has one brief moment to state this before the first punch was landed). Clear case of self defense and the State has presented no viable alternative … only vague and quite minor inconsistentsies that anyone’s story might contain if exposed to a life threatening incident. Reasonable doubt … not in my mind. I’m quite sure this is the only reasonable explanation.

            • Trayvon could see 300 feet in the darkness/rain when witnesses could barely see 20-40 feet away?

              Why did it take Zimmerman 2+ minutes to get from the most eastwardly part of the T back to the center of it? He could have literally crawled and it would have been faster.

            • Zimmerman was holding a flashlight. Trayvon knew that the man holding the flashlight was most likely the man who he had seen earlier in the truck. As to why it took Zimmerman 2 minutes (actually one and a half minutes) to walk back to the center of the T …. this was very likely because Zimmerman was puzzled as to where Trayvon went. Zimmerman was likely looking around on the way back to his truck. However, a slow walk back to the truck does not constitute an aggressive act or following in any way. If you think Zimmerman was following and not returning to his truck than you’d have a hard time explaining why the fight initiated and transpired only 100 feet from Zimmerman’s truck. Trayvon had 4 minutes to walk or run back to his house (500 feet) and he supposedly stated he was already there, but Zimmerman’s story is still consistent with returning and walking back to his truck. The location of the fight near Z’s car is in itself indication that Zimmerman was returning and at the same time indication that Trayvon was ambushing.

            • Why did witnesses see a chase from south to north then?

              How did they end up 40 feet south of the T?

              Nobody else saw a small illuminated keychain flashlight before the scuffle — what makes you assume Trayvon could see it from the other end of the path in the dark/rainy night?

            • Witness 2 is the one who said in her statement that she saw a chase “toward the T”, but in a later statement she said “she saw more than heard”, and what she saw was “A PERSON”, that person was probably TM as he was doubling back to lie in wait for GZ.
              How did they wind up 40 feet from the T, well GZ said that when TM punched him in the nose he stumbled backsards, and was trying to fend him off, also after the altercation started , they somehow wound up further down. Witnesses said they could hear the “fight” moving further away from the T. The flashlight, nobody saw anything before the altercation except for witness 2, who said she saw “A PERSON” (which had to be Tm). We know the altercation started at the T because of witness statements of witnesses who’s apts backed up to the top of the T, and because GZ’s keys with the flashlight were found at the T (and the light was still on the flashlight when the police got there).

            • If you look at pictures taken at night from the sidewalk, it’s dark but you can see silhouettes at the T, the other end where TM would have been is much darker, plus GZ had that little flashlight on his keychain which was still on when the police arrived. So TM could have seen GZ w/o GZ seeing him. When GZ was at the end of the sidewalk, after he hung up with non emergency, he got the address, he may have looked down the street just to see if TM was around anywhere , he wasn’t in any hurry to get back to his truck because he wasn’t running away from anybody. And we don’t know that it was 2 minutes. Rachel’s phone cut off about 2 minutes after he hung up with non emergency, and we don’t know how long the connection stayed on after the altercation started, or how long the altercation had been going on before the first 911 calls started coming in.

            • The problem you’re having is that “CAC” is not an insult, it is a label. It’s akin, in the language of these children, to calling gz The BTK killer, they are calling him a dangerous pedophile and/or pervert, not merely cursing him. Thus they are afraid of him, they have him down as someone to be feared, not someone to be angry about.

              Face it, parents instill in their kids a fear of strangers and rightly so. So, when a child, who has little life experience, finds themselves the target of a stranger following them, a bigger, stronger and in theory, more capable and ill intended adult, the child is endlessly fearful.

              Trayvon would not call Chad to open the door, until he was sure that this dangerous stranger was no where around to see which house he went into. Trayvon has no way to tell that the stranger will not break into the house and take him and his brother away.

              We have only gz’s word for it that he went over to RVC. We know that he’s lied to cover up what he was doing many times. So why would this be any different? gz could have been heading south all this time.

            • It’s not logical to think that Trayvon did not return home because he was afraid that Zimmerman would discover which house he lived in. If you believe that Trayvon was scared than why did he approach Z’s truck and put his hand under his waistband as if to indicate fearlessness and having a gun? If I’m afraid of someone and I know I only have 400 feet to run to get to my house and the threat is still sitting in his car, I know I can run that distance to my house before Z even has a chance to round the corner to see where I went. If I have 4 entire minutes to run 400 feet, I’ll make it my house, open the door and still have time lock myself inside with 3 minutes to spare. No .. instead Trayvon returned to his house area as he told Dee Dee, and decided to confront and ambush a slow moving Zimmerman who still did not know where Trayvon went. If I have 4 minutes and I’m afraid of a man in a car, than 4 minutes later you won’t find me only 100 feet from his car. I could slither the distance of 100 feet in four minutes if I were crawling on my belly and had no legs.

            • These things you are citing that Trayvon supposedly did, are only reported by gz, there is no proof other than gz’s worthless word that any of these things actually happened.

            • I was surprised to learn that the Prosecution could not say that it was illegal for gz to follow Trayvon. Apparently, for some reason the stalker laws don’t apply? Or, perhaps Fla. doesn’t have stalker laws?

              I guess gz learned from his law classes that he could kill whom ever he wanted to, as long as he had a self defense claim. Now it becomes clear why he would have those injuries prepared in advance, to ensure that he would have evidence he needed to ensure he could get away with a killing. So, now, in light of these new facts I have to once again believe that this killing was premeditated. So where did he get these wounds and the blood from? BlushedBrown says it looks like the blood was poured on his head, I’m inclined to agree now. The blood found on Jon’s garage door frame is a very good clue as to who he had helping out.

              Forgive me if I’m getting the impression that in the main the whole damned complex is full of racists. Not such a stretch for Florida, eh?

            • This is the way the Zimmerman is guilty people have it. Z lied when he said that T had his hand in his pants as if he had a gun. Z lied when he said T circled the truck. When the police non emergency person asked which way T ran, Z should have stayed in his car because leaving was proof that he wanted to kill T. It is normal for T to have taken 4 plus minutes to have run as far as the top of the t-intersection and there is no way he could have reached all the way to his house in this same period of time (500 feet in 4 minutes is an impossible feat) . Z lied when he said he was returning to his car even though the fight started only 100 feet from his car. Z scratched his own head to make it bleed. Z punched himself in the nose to break it, and in the course of a 30 second fight it would have been impossible to reach for his gun unless T was in the process of retreating. T wasn’t angry sufficient to make him attack Z even though he used terms like “creepy ass- cracker” and the n word to describe Z. T was a pacifistic angel even though he was suspended at one time for fighting. Z was a homocidal prejudiced maniac even though his grandmother was black, even though he started a business with a black man, even though he tutored a black youth without being paid. Z was a liar even though he passed a lie detector test. T was a child and incapable of planning an attack on a slower out of shape Z. Z should not have shot T even if T were on top of him because T was a boy. Z had no reason to fear for his life, either because his injuries were faked, or because he should have just laid there and taken a few more blows to the head as it was pounded into the concrete. Certainly T would have stopped short of killing him after Z lost consciousness. Believe it or not, that’s the Zimmerman should be convicted case.

            • That’s crazy. So GZ lied about TM putting his hands in his waistband when he was on the phone with the dispatcher? He premeditated that he was going to kill someone, so he calls the police, do you have any idea how absurd that sounds. He didn’t get out of the truck until he had already lost sight of tM, and he figured he had run to the back gate like the others he had reported had done. From the T to the apartment is just about 100 yards, the length of a football field, Someone TM’s height could have run in about 45 seconds, or walked it in less than a minute and a half. GZ was still on the phone talking to the dispatcher for longer than that. Bottom line TM could have been safely inside the apt before gZ even got off the phone.

            • Actually, I was saying Z lied about the hand in his pants and Z lied about T circling his truck, because I too believe that it would have next to impossible for him to lie about these things. Certainly, he wouldn’t lie in real time to the police, so that he would have to cover for a murder he was planning to commit less than 5 minutes later, all the while knowing the police would be on their way and possibly catch him in the act. I was trying to show the absurdity of the people that disbelieve Zimmerman on these points, not to try to give their disbelief some credibility.

            • stalking=A person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person and makes a credible threat to that person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree**********
              GZ did none of the above, “following” someone from a distance for 15 seconds to see which way they went when you have the police on the phone does not = stalking.
              There is no way that GZ could ahve inflicted those injuries on himself, and a racist complex? I don’t think so , it was a mixed community. GZ himself is not white.

            • Zimmerman stalked no one. He got out of his car, walked 200 feet and then turned back when asked to. What Travon did was to attack Zimmerman when he was already well on his way back to his car. Why is it so hard to believe that an anrgy 17 year old attacked a man who annoyed him? Why is it so hard to believe that Zimmerman was beaten with no provocation more than to look and call and get out of his car and walk 200 feet. If Trayvon were scared he would have gone home not turned to attack.

            • Causing fear is not an assault, and GZ did not cause fear. TM was scared of GZ, he was taunting him, and he circled back to assault him.

            • How is it impossible. Wheter or not he circled all the way around the vehicle or not, I dont’ know but we do know from the 911 call that TM was at the vehicle, looking in the windows and posturing, (Taunting) GZ.

              There is no law on the books that says any time you “cause fear”, you are committing an assault, if GZ had been threatening TM, if he had had the gun drawn and was chasing him that is one thing, but following from a distance for 15 seconds is not something that should cause fear. Certainly it is not an excuse for someone who could be safely inside an apt to double back and violentyly assault someone.. I don’t believe for one minute that TM was scared. He was bored, he was Po’d because GZ looked at him and briefly “followed ” him and wante to teach the “crazy azz cracka” a lesson.

            • From Rachel’s and Zimmerman’s calls, it’s indisputable that the murderer was causing fear.

              It’s also indisputable that the first 2:47 of the maps seen below is accurate. There wasn’t time — per calculated walking/running speeds — for Trayvon to circle Zimmerman’s Ridgeline.



              Calculations/timing explained in these postings…



            • Hardly, we know the entire conversation that GZ had with non-emergency, and TM did come over to his vehicle, he describes it while on the call. Rachel’s testimony of what TM alledgedly said is basicly hearsay, and I find it hard to believe that a macho kid like TM would tell a girl that he was scared of anything. More than likely he was telling her he was Po’d rather than scared. If he was scared he would have just gone inside the apartment, or if as some like to believe he was afraid to lead GZ to the apt because of Chad, he would have kept running in the opposite direction instead of back toward GZ. Nope the evidence clearly shows that TM was all the way back at the T and that makes no sense after a 4 minute chase, the only thing that makes sense is that he doubled back to assault GZ.

            • If calling the police and walking 200 feet before returning back to your car is considered stalking than the entire world has been guilty of that at one time or another.

            • You’re believing Zimmerman’s story, eh? Given all the lies he’s told, that’s got to be hard to say with a straight face.

              He didn’t stalk, by the definition of the law, but he did cause fear and that’s assault in Florida.

            • The lead investigator believed Zimmerman’s story. The police chief believed his story. The State Attorney’s office believed his story. It took threats of retaliation, firings and demotions before the professionals were willing to charge him. I believe Zimmerman over a troubled teenager, who fought, idolized fighting, glorified guns, used racial epithets, posted hateful comments about women, was repeatedly expelled from school, couldn’t explain where he obtained jewelry that was believed to be stolen and stated in a text on the same day that he wanted to get into a fight so he could prove himself. Would you bet money that an aggressive, teenager wouldn’t want to punish someone he found annoying? This is a bad bet considering Trayvon had many minutes to walk or run 500 feet to the safety of his home but instead decided to confront someone only 100 feet from his “stalker’s car”..

            • Makes perfect sense to me. He had already lost sight of TM, and was just trying to see which way he was going, he was not in hot pursuit, not in pursuit at all, that’s what he meant when the dispatcher asked him “are you following him”. It’s not a lie. There is absolutely no way that he could have been actually “following” someone he had lost sight of.

            • Gun in Trayvon’s waistband? How about cellphone (in use) in the unarmed teen’s pants pocket/waistband clip?

              Remember — there was no key found on Trayvon. And, I’d personally never lead a creepy man chasing me back to my back porch/locked apartment.

            • Exactly, the only one at home was Chad, so there was not only no protection there [glass patio doors are easy to break] all going home would do is, lead the stalker to yet another victim.

              If we’re going to play “what if” games, then I’m sure Trayvon could easily imagine that his stalker was armed, otherwise what would he be doing stalking in the rain and dark? Not that he needed to be armed, he was much bigger and older, and therefore seemed more powerful than little Trayvon. On top of which, there is no evidence of the claimed attack. Without evidence we can assume that gz is just making things up, to make it appear that the killing was justified.

              He would need just such a story, if he hoped that he would not be imprisoned for it.

            • Without evidence we may not legally assume Zimmerman was lying. That’s the law and has been since the inception of the country. Where are you from that the defense has to prove anything. That’s strictly the state’s burden.

            • I’ve already been throuhg that whole , maybe he was scared to lead GZ to the apt. He told RJ he nad LOST him, and she said he was “right by the apt”. The whole Chad story has always been fishy, the whold Skittles/ ballgame story makes no sense. In an itnerview with Chad’s father, the father says that Chad told him that at halftime during the game , TM went to the 7-11 to git skittles for HIM. The game didn’t even start until after TM was aready dead. I don’t believe that Chad was even there, the idea that he didn’t hear any of the commotion because he supposedly had his headphones on playing a game… and the idea that when Tracy and Brandy supposedly got home at 10:30 to 11:00PM, that he either didn’t tell them that TM went to the 7-11 to get him some skittles 4 hours earlier and he had called him 3 and a half hours ago and he told him he was on the way back and he still wans’t home, and nobody was worried? Nope I don’t think any of them were home until the next morning. TM didn’t have a key so he must have just left the door unlocked.

            • TM’s cellphone was in his pocket. He was posturing when he was going around GZ’s truck, whatever he had in his waistband, he WANTED GZ to hink it was a weapon
              If some “creepy guy” is following me, and I don’t want to lead him to my apt, I keep running, I don’t run back TOWARD him.

            • Worse yet is kids won’t call 911. Put yourself in Trayvon’s shoes, he’s from Miami, where or how will he explain to the police, without putting them off with confusion, where he is to be found? Children are used to having their fears dismissed, so why would he imagine this time would be any different? Even worse, do black children hear stories about the police? What kind of stories would you imagine they would hear over time?

            • PUleeze a 17 year old is not a child, a kid, but not a “child”. Even little kids know to call 911 when they feel they are in danger. If the black community is not teaching their children to call 911, if they are teaching thim that if someone is following you , the thing to do is ASSAULT them, they are teaching them to put themselves in harms way. I heard a black woman on MSNBC saying that’s what she was taught as a child, that if someone was following her , not to run, because the person could have a gun, and not to go hime because you don’t want to lead the person to where you live, but instead to turn around and confront them. That is just CRAZY. Turn around and confront someone that you think may have a gun. ?

            • Chad was wearing earphones….Trayvon didn’t have keys on him and was talking on the phone. Perhaps he was going to finish his call and then call Chad, not knowing that CAC had got out of his truck to continue his pursuit on foot until he showed up on the south end of the dog walk.

            • Find me one picture of GZ with grass on his back or you’re delusional and possibly slow. He’s the deal, if TM came back to the T and attacked GZ then why was TM’s body found 40 feet from the T in the grass? If you stand at the T and look 40 feet down the opposite way towards TM’s house then if you have one ounce of common sense you have to accept that if Martin came to the T and hit GZ he then retreated backwards and GZ went towards him, his self-defense claim is then DOA. To further add to the problem is the fact that two witnesses live at the T and heard a commotion coming their way and initially looked out at the T and saw nothing. (Manalo and Surdyka.) It was only when the noises got closer that they looked again and then saw two people in the grass. What does that mean? This never started at the T. Once again, the self-defense claim is DOA. Thanks for playing.

            • OH and regarding the grass on GZ’s back, you can’t see it in any of the pictures, but per the police reports the back of his clothes were wet and had grass on them. BTW if you look at the pictures of TM’s pants you will see what looks like grass stains on the knees.

  4. I was among those who sent BCCLIST the suggestion that Zimmerman walked South on RVC instead of returning West to the T. I’d like to add some detail to what I originally offered. By the way, you can use this website to calculate distances. It’s already set to the correct location.

    First, recall that Zimmerman told the NEN operator that he thought Martin was heading for the back entrance. If you look at the map, that back entrance is indeed the only way out of the development. So when Martin first ran, Zimmerman knew he couldn’t catch him, but he also knew that he could reach a spot from which to monitor the back entrance before Martin could reach the back entrance.

    That spot would be Retreat View Circle (RVC). From there, there’s a clear view to the back entrance about 500 feet away. Once Zimmerman was there, he could tell if Martin left the development or not. Once there, Zimmerman knew he could walk South to close the net on Martin. If Martin exited through the back entrance before Zimmerman reached it, so be it — at least the development was safe. And if Zimmerman reached the back entrance without seeing Martin exit through it, he would know that Martin was still somewhere in the development.

    As it happened, Zimmerman reached the back entrance without seeing Martin exit the development. I believe from my calculations that that is where the call to NEN ended. Given that Zimmerman was so far from his truck, I believe that’s why he had the last-minute idea of asking the operator to have the police contact him. He himself had no idea where he’d be when they arrived, but not finding Martin, I think he reasoned that a skulking suspect was more likely to be found hiding somewhere in the backs of the two rows of condos than on the brightly lit Twin Trees sidewalk. So he walked to the footpath and started moving North on it.

    During all this time, almost three minutes, Martin had arrived to the back of Brandy Green’s condo. Whether he couldn’t get in because the door was locked and Green’s son Chad had his headphones on, preventing him from hearing Martin’s knocking, or whether he just decided to chill outside, talking to Rachel, the fact is that he stayed outside. And per Rachel’s testimony, “a couple of minutes later,” Zimmerman appeared on the scene again.

    I don’t believe the “Why are you following me?” conversation took place outside Green’s condo. Going by Rachel’s testimony, I believe Martin refused to run but said he would “walk fast” to get away from Zimmerman. He could only walk North, towards the T, and that’s what he did.

    I believe at some point, about 45 feet from the T, Martin turned and asked Zimmerman why he was following him. That’s when Zimmerman ran up and yelled in an angry voice, “What are you doing here?” That’s when and where the physical conflict started. However, there was no fistfight. It was limited to push and shove and wrestling.

    And at some point, Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot Martin in the heart.

    • If you are going by Rachel’s testimony, then you have to consider what she said in her statement to the state atty. She said that TM told her he was not going to run because he was right by his daddy’s house (now keep in mind it would have only taken him about 45 seconds to run that far after GZ lost sight of him, almost 2 minutes before he got off the phone with 911) She says that ABOUT 2 MINUTES LATER TM was breathing hard and talking low (whispering). NO, if GZ had encountered TM at the apt porch and started chasing him down, he wouldn’t have had time to be chit chatting with RJ about how the man was getting closer, and how he still wasn’t going to run. Makes no sense. What it does is confirm gZ’s story that TM assaulted him from the T, he had run 100 yards to the T, was lying in wait for GZ and whispering to RJ about it.

      • GZ didn’t encounter TM at the apartment porch. TM spotted GZ coming up the footpath (and GZ probably spotted TM at that time too). RJ told him to run, but TM said he would “walk fast.” He was walking fast while telling RJ that the man was getting closer.

        • Nope you have to go by the timeline: RJtold her he lost the guy and was right by the apartment, that he wasn’t going to run because he was right by the apartment She said her phone cut off after that , so TM was already right by the apt BEFORE her phone cut off at 7:11:47 pm, ,ONE second before GZ even gets out of his truck at 7:11:48pm , so that means that TM didn’t even know that GZ even got out of the truck when he first told her that he was RIGHT BY the apt. She calls him back at 7:12:06, and he is still telling her that he is RIGHT BY the apartment, then he says “OH SH1T” and tells her the man is “following” him agian. Just one second after she called TM back is when George is talking to dispatch and they ask him his name and he says “he ran”. So at 7:12:07 we have GZ way back up at the T and TM RIGHT by the apartment. Apparently TM saw GZ as he crossed the T, and said “oh shit” and then decided to go 100 yards back to the T to ambush him. There is no other explanation with the timeline. None whatsoever. Yeah he saw the “creepy azz cracka” way down there at the T and decided he was going to teach him a lesson.

            • Absolutely not, I’m going by the one that has been entered into evidence at the actual trial. It is the defense exibit, BUT if it were inaccurate in any way you know the prosecution would object.

            • Let’s start by making sure Zimmerman’s call to police is timed out correctly. This is what I have. Please provide a link if it is incorrect.

              7:09:34 = Zimmerman’s call with police connects.

              7:10:29 = Trayvon leaves the clubhouse/mailboxes and walks east on Twin Trees.

              7:11:03 = Trayvon passes Zimmerman’s westwardly facing truck on Twin Trees — the vehicle is pointed towards the clubhouse with the headlights on.

              7:11:41 = Zimmerman says, “Shit, he’s running” away from him.

              7:11:45 = Zimmerman opens his Ridgeline’s door and starts pursuing Trayvon on foot.

              7:12:22 = Zimmerman says, “He ran” away from him.

              7:13:41 = Zimmerman hangs up with police.

              Maps I’ve drawn…

            • I don’t know where you are getting the info of what time TM left the mailbox pavillion, or where you are getting the idea that GZ’s vehicle was facing the clubhouse, because if there was any evidence like that, don’t you think the prosecution would have introduced it when they put on their case, instead of showing GZ’s version of the story several times.?

            • You’d think. The prosecution sucks…so far.

              Here’s Zimmerman’s friend/neighbor, Frank Taaffe, giving his reenactment of the events that night to a local reporter.

              As you can tell, Zimmerman’s truck was facing west towards the clubhouse.

              :55 into the call Zimmerman says Trayvon Martin was AT the clubhouse right before saying, at the 1 minute mark, now he’s coming towards me.

            • All I see at that link is a screen print of Taffe talking to some guy in a blue shirt, I don’t see a truck, now Taffe is facing the clubhouse….. IDK I don’t watch HLN, way to biased,

            • It’s Taaffe reenacting the circumstances leading up to Trayvon’s death to a local reporter.

              Taaffe indicated Zimmerman parked facing west just like the security camera light patterns suggest, towards the clubhouse, and Trayvon walked by his vehicle just like my maps suggest.

            • Let’s start by making sure Zimmerman’s call to police is timed out correctly. This is what I have. Please provide a link if it’s incorrect…

              7:09:34 = Zimmerman’s call with police connects.

              7:10:29 = Trayvon leaves the clubhouse/mailboxes and walks east on Twin Trees.

              7:11:03 = Trayvon passes Zimmerman’s westwardly facing truck on Twin Trees — the vehicle is pointed towards the clubhouse with the headlights on.

              7:11:41 = Zimmerman says, “Shit, he’s running” — away from him.

              7:11:45 = Zimmerman opens his Ridgeline’s door and starts pursuing Trayvon on foot.

              7:12:22 = Zimmerman says, “He ran” — away from him.

              7:13:41 = Zimmerman hangs up with police.

              Maps I’ve drawn…

  5. It’s a possibility but then virtually anything is possible to some degree, What we know is that most – if not all – physical evidence, and the majority of witness evidence shows the encounter happened at the T and headed south down the path. Therefore the idea that GZ chased TM up the path and then immediately it switched direction down the path seems very unlikely. It’s possible but the overwhelming evidence suggests the physical encounter started at the T. There’s virtually no evidence suggesting the physical/verbal encounter happened down the path where TM was staying. The only witness to suggest this did not indicate movement south to north at all for months even when asked many times to give a detailed account of what see saw and heard.

    • The location of Martins phone proves the altercation did not start at the T. The location of the body and shell casing prove Martin was not shot at the T.

      • No he was not shot at the T but that is where the altercation started, several witnesses have testified that it moved down toward where it ended. GZ’s keys were found right at the T, not where the body was. Martin’s phone cut off, but it was probably in his pocket which is why it was found near the body instead of the T, Just because RJ says she heard “wet grass” does not mean the phone came out where the altercation started, it was probably in TM’s pocket, and didn’t come out when he sucker punched GZ at the T.

          • Yeah right, there were people all around, the guy with the flashlight showed up while he was still straddling TM to make sure he didn’t have anything in his hands, and the officer showed up seconds after that, he didn’t have time to plant any evidence, and even if he had the time it probably hadn’t occurred to him that he need to prove the altercation started at the t. Makes no sense at all. His keyw were in his hands while he was walking to the truck, TM sucker punched him and he dropped them, along with the flashlight.

    • The only witness to suggest this did not indicate movement south to north at all for months even when asked many times to give a detailed account of what see saw and heard.

      I know that’s what was said in the courtroom, but in her recorded interviews with police, that witness indeed says she heard running go past her home towards the T. The detective asks her a couple of times, “Away from your home?” Since that could be in any direction, she replies, “Towards the T.” The jury will be able to listen to that recording since it’s part of the evidence.

      The idea that the fight moved 40 feet doesn’t make sense. Forty feet is a long distance, and this wasn’t a Kung-Fu movie, where fighters sail in the air. Besides, Zimmerman didn’t say the fight moved in his statement to police. Only during the walkthrough, when he realized how far the body was from the T, did he say that he staggered and stumbled from the sucker punch, but in his re-enactment, he only covered about 15 feet, still far from the location of the body. Think about it. You don’t stagger and stumble for 40 feet. You either fall or regain your balance.

      • Interesting that the witness , witness # 2 who was the one who gave the statement that someone was running toward the T was NOT called by the prosecution. Maybe it was because her testimony would have worked in the favor of the defense. At first she stated that she saw a chase going past her window, but when she gave her full satement she said she heard more than saw and that she caought a glimpse of A PERSON (not 2 people chasing each other), headed toward the T, that would be TM circiling back to the T to ambush GZ. the witness who testified about the movement toward the T was the sister of witness 2, and in her statements she says nothing about seeing or hearing anything until she they were right there where the gunshot was fired because she said she saw John come out and ask them what was going on and heard him say he was going to call 911.

        Nobody saw how the altercation progressed from the T to where it wound up,but several say that it did.

    • I’ve read dozens of theories, and all of them are pretty far-fetched, the only story that makes any sense when you consider the timeline and the ACTUAL evidence is GZ’s story.

  6. Not possible, Rachel stated that it was right after the “Why you following me for” that Trayvon’s phone fell, and that would have happened at the T. Also if you listen to her statement for the state atty, she says he was right by by the apt and that was why he wasn’t going to run, and then she says about 2 minutes later he was breathing real hard and talking low (whispering) and right after that is when the altercation happened. That could only mean that TM had made it back to the apt, and spotted GZ walking down the other sidewalk at the top of the T, and decided to run 100 yards back to the T to ambush him on his way back to the truck. Rachel’s call with TM ended about 2 minutes after GZ got off the phone with dispatch, but remember the altercation had already begun before the call cut off, remember Rachel saying she could hear the grass and there is no way to know how long the connection lasted after she says she heard that. , .The witnesses who said they saw movement toward the T were sisters in the same apt. The one who actually caught a glimpse of someone running was witness 2, the one who did not testify. She at first said she saw 2 people chasing each other , but when giving her full statements later said that she more heard than saw, that she had caught a glimpse of A PERSON runing (not 2 people) toward the T. That had to be TM circling back to ambush GZ who never left the sidewalk at the top of the T.
    The sister who was the one who testified, did not mention anything about seeing or hearing any movement toward the T until the day she testifiedm she incorporated her sister’s statement and embelshed on it because in her statement she said she heard a noise from the kitchen window like a moan , thought it was kids playing , and saw John come out his door to tell them he was calling 911. So she didn’t see or hear anything until the altercation was right there where the shooting occurred. Interesting that the prosecution did not call her sister as she is the only one who saw anykind of movement toward the T. Actually her testimony would have helped the defense because she only saw ONE person running toward the T, which ahd to be TM circiling back.

    • What was the timeframe Rachel gave regarding hearing “Why are you following me?” and the phone dropping. Seconds or minutes?

      There’s absolutely nothing to suggest Trayvon circled back around and attacked Zimmerman.

      • The timeframe for hearing Why are you following me etc… was right after that, seconds, we don’t know that the phone dropped only that the headphone came off or maybe even TM took it off because he was about to sucker punch GZ. She was an ear witness, not an eye witness.

        Every bit of Rachel’s testimony suggests that. In her statement to the state attorney she said that TM was right by the apt, and that he wasn’t going to run because he was right there, then she says ABOUT TWO MINUTES later TM is saying the guy is right behind him, but he’s not going to run, and she knew he wasn’t going to run because he was breathing hard and talking low (whispering), the only explanation for that could be that he was lying in wait for GZ, that he had run back to the T to ambush him.

        Also if you look at the timeline of when her first call cut off, you will see that she had already said that TM told her he lost the guy and he was right by the apartment , THEN she says the phone cut off. . The call cut off at 7:11:47 pm, ,ONE second before GZ even gets out of his truck at 7:11:48pm , so that means that TM didn’t even know that GZ even got out of the truck when he first told her that he was RIGHT BY the apt. She calls him back at 7:12:06, and he is still telling her that he is RIGHT BY the apartment, then he says “OH SH1T” and tells her the man is “following” him agian. Just one second after she called TM back is when George is talking to dispatch and they ask him his name and he says “he ran”. So at 7:12:07 we have GZ way back up at the T and TM RIGHT by the apartment. Apparently TM saw GZ as he crossed the T, and said “oh sh1t” and then decided to go 100 yards back to the T to ambush him. There is no other explanation with the timeline. None whatsoever. Yeah he saw the “creepy azz cracka” way down there at the T and decided he was going to teach him a lesson.

    • Rachel stated that it was right after the “Why you following me for” that Trayvon’s phone fell, and that would have happened at the T.

      Trayvon’s phone was found a few feet South of his body, which was found 40 feet South of the T.

      she says he was right by by the apt and that was why he wasn’t going to run, and then she says about 2 minutes later he was breathing real hard and talking low (whispering) and right after that is when the altercation happened.

      Yes, no point in running if you’re already home. Two minutes later, Trayvon told her that there was that man again. A rush of adrenaline as you see your worst fears confirmed will make you breath hard. And the altercation didn’t happen immediately after. She testified that the she told him to run again, and he said that no, he was going to “walk fast.” And he kept up a running commentary, telling her that the man was getting closer and closer. And then Trayvon made the fateful decision to stop, turn, and ask why Zimmerman was following him. Had Trayvon run, he’d be alive because Zimmerman couldn’t catch him.

      That could only mean that TM had made it back to the apt, and spotted GZ walking down the other sidewalk at the top of the T, and decided to run 100 yards back to the T to ambush him on his way back to the truck.

      Timewise that’s impossible. Trayvon could not have run home and turned to look in time to see Zimmerman walking across the T on his way to RVC. Zimmerman wasn’t that slow. He was a 28-year-old guy who had lost 60 pounds doing aerobics at a martial arts academy. Besides, why would Trayvon do that? He was genuinely afraid.

      • Timewise that is the only possible explanation, TM was already very near the apt before GZ even got out of the car, see my response above to No Longer Mass emailing. Rachel’s running commentary of GZ “following” Tm started with hime following in the vehicle, he was talking to her while he was circling GZ’s vehicle, looking in the window and putting his hands in his pockets, then he proceeded down the sidewalk turned right at the T and was telling RJ that he lost the guy and was near the apt before GZ even got out of the truck.

      • Oh and I find it hard to believe that TM was genuinely afraid. He had made it a point to make sure GZ saw him walk by the clubhouse, when if he were heading back to the apartment , the shortest distance would have been to go the other way, he also made it a point to turn around and cirlce gZ’s vehicle after he moved it from the clubhouse to near the sidewalk, looking in the windows and posturing. No he wasn’t scared.

        • Trayvon literally took the shortest route from 7/11. He took temporary cover under the clubhouse awning to get away from the rain. Zimmerman’s vehicle was never parked in front of the clubhouse when connecting/talking with police. Per what’s heard during Zimmerman’s recorded call with police, it was impossible for Trayvon to circle his vehicle.

          Where are you getting your “facts” from? Definitely stop paying attention to that “source.”

          • gringz probably gets his “facts” from conservativetreeehouse or stormfront. Zimmerman’s story has changed so many times it’s not believable at all.

            • WRONG. Actually I get my facts from the evidence which I found on the following website
              I have formed all of my opinions on the case based solely on the actual evidence, the timeline, the 911 calls, the witness statements, the medical/autopsy reports, etc, Last year when this story broke I was as outraged as most of you are and couldn’t understand how the vigilante NW guy could possibly be claiming that he had to defend himself from the little kid I saw in the picture that the media put out, so I got curoius and started looking at the actual evidence. I started with GZ’s call to non-emergency, and was SHOCKED to find out that it didn’t end with “we don’t need you to do that ” as the media had us believing, that it lasted almost 2 more minutes, where you can tell he was not following anyone. I also was shocked that the 17 year old that I thought was awfully small for his age, was actually much bigger than that picture they were using, and not quite the the little angel he was portrayed as, and apparently no longer on the path to becoming an astranaut when he grew up (or was it a rocket scientist , i forget), so I started looking at all of the evidence, have been doing it for over a year and have yet fo find anything that refutes GZ’s story. I think it is really sad that a local incident was blown up into a NATIONAL CAUSE, that it was made out to be a black vs white thing, when GZ is not even white. Have I looked at some of the other blogs, yes, but only after I reached myu own conclusion based strictly on the evidence. I’ve visited the Conservitive Treehouse, and I see they have reached the same conclusion that I have, although they have done a lot of research and investigation. Stormfront? Give me a break , why would anyone believe that a White Supremist Organizatoin would support and Afro-Peruvian Jewish guy who is a practicing Catholic? It boggles the mind how you libs lump everyone who doesn’t agree with you int the same category as racists. That is why I am a RECOVERING liberal..

            • The bottom line: You can’t break the law (causing fear is assault in Florida) and claim self defense.

              So, Zimmerman should be toast…either Murder 2 (justifiable) or manslaughter (likely).

            • The story he’s trying to tell is made even worse by the fact that, as gz is supposedly in the act of returning to his truck, the rain is getting harder and harder all the time. Yet, with nothing else to do but wait for the police to arrive, he does not hurry back to the shelter of his truck. If he had, he’d have been there before he claims the attack happened.

              So, instead he’s staying out in the rain with no new address or street name, and asking the police to call him, to find out where he’ll be, somewhere outside in the pouring rain. Instead of seeking the shelter of his truck.

              As for Trayvon, he had no key, he obviously had planned to call Chad by phone, to come to the door and let him in. But, before he could do that, he had to be sure that the crazy guy had not followed him home, where he could become a danger to Chad as well.

              Trayvon had already decided that this was a pervert looking for a young boy to molest, so why would he call Chad to the door and give the creepy guy two young boys to molest?

              While gz wants us to think that having a creepy looking guy following a young black male in the dark, was not a reason to be fearful. He had obviously, forgotten that what he was doing, is exactly what pedophiles do, follow young boys in the dark.

              Is gz able to give anyone a reason why Trayvon would not think that he was a perverted pedophile seeking to capture some young boy to torture as seen on so many television shows?

          • TM took the shortest route from the 7/11 to the complex by cutting through another complex, but once he came out of the opening between the complex and was standing in Frank Taffee’s yard where GZ spotted him, it would have been much closer to go the OTHER way (not by the clubhouse). And per Rachel, TM told her he was at the mailboxes, not the clubhouse to get out of the rain. Where do you get that GZ was not parked at the clubhouse? He wouldn’t have been able to see TM walk by the clubhouse from where his truck was later parked over by the T, and how would it hve been impossible for TM to circle GZ’s vehicle? You make no sense. I’m going by the evidence, not by anything on anybody’s website, just the facts, what is in evidence.

          • Actually the exact definition of Aggregated Assault is : The State of Florida defines aggravated assault as an intentional threat of violence by word or action causing fear of harm in another, with the apparently ability to cause such harm, either using a deadly weapon or with the intent to commit a felony crime.
            It has to be an INTENTIONAL THREAT. Someone following someone is not an intentional threat
            APPARENTLY ability to cause such harm. a CONCEALED weapon is not apparently ability, IF GZ were running after him with his gun drawn you’d have a point, but that wasn’t the case. IF GZ had had the gun drawn when TM ASSAULTED him, it would have fallen to the ground., and since we know that TM had disoriented GZ enough to pin him down, he obviously would have been able to pick up the gun .

            • Circling a neighborhood like a shark, ultimately parking your truck to watch a teenager hiding from the rain under an awning on a rainy night with a loaded gun packed on your side, and then chasing the victim running away from you isn’t showing intent to cause fear? Explain.

            • He mentioned the clubhouse but not the mailboxs, I believe he walked past GZ’s truck down that sidewalk to the mailboxes, and that’s when GZ pulled his truck around Twin Trees to see if he could tell which way he went.

            • Not circiling a neigherbhood, no the way to TArget, passed a suspicious kid standing in someone’s yard, parks at the clubhouse to call non emergency, kid makes it a point to walk in front of him and then turns right at the clubhouse and goes to the mailbox pavillion about 50 feet down the sidewalk or the road , not sure which way he went. The only “following” GZ did in the vehicle was pulling around Twin Trees down to where the sidewalk T is.

  7. Too bad he wasn’t caught by the home owner in the upper right corner of the map (where he is clearly shown as trespassing).

  8. 6:54:16 Call between RJ and TM begins
    7:09:?? GZ spots TM at 1460 Retreat view circle, drives about 400ft parks in front of the clubhouse.
    7:09:35 GZ’s call to non-emergency connects
    7:10:21 GZ tells 911 that that TM is near the clubhouse and staring at him.
    Seconds later TM turns the corner at the clubhouse and per RJ goes to the mailbox, about 50 feet down the sidewalk, GZ pulls his truck around the corner at Twin Tree to the sidewalk, see’s
    TM going up the sidewalk at the top of the T and then turn around and come back toward him.
    7:10:30 Tells dispatcher Yeah, now he’s coming toward me, He’s coming to check me out, etc.
    7:11:01 Dispatcher says Ok just let me know if he does anything , OK
    7:11:02 GZ says Please get an officer over here
    7:11:04 Dispatcher says “Just let me know if he does anything else, OK
    7:11:40” GZ says “Sh*t, he’s running.
    7:11:41 Dispatcher: “He’s running, which way is he running.
    7:11:43 GZ unbuckles seatbelt, opens car door.
    7:11:47 RACHEL’S CALL ENDS . According to her testimony what she said happened BEFORE her call ended is that TM told her The N*gga is now following me” and she told him to run, and he told her that he wasn’t going to run because he was right by his daddy’s gf’s apt. (BEFORE GZ EVEN GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK)
    7:11:48 Door shuts and GZ says “owards the entrance of the neighborhood”Dispatcher says “Which
    Entrance is he heading toward? ”
    7:11:57 Dispatch asks “Are you following him” he answers yes, and they tell him “We don’t need you to do that and he says OK
    7:12:06 RACHEL RECONNECTS WITH TM she says that when he calls her back he tells her he’s lost the man and he is right by the apt.
    7:12:07 Dispatch asks GZ his name, and he says George, and says “He Ran” indicating that TM was nowhere in sight. I’m speculating that he was probably at the T, looking down the sidewalk and not seeing him.
    7:13:40 GZ’s call with Non-Emergency Ends. .
    7:15:43 Rachel’s call with TM disconnects.
    So as you can see, going by Rachel’s testimony, at the point where RJ is saying that TM tells her that GZ is now folloing him, he’s referring to GZ pulling his vehicle around to near the sidewalk. he’s already telling her before that call cuts off that he’s near the apt, GZ doesn’t get out of the truck until that call ended, which means that TM did not even know that GZ was out of the truck, and that GZ had completely lost sight of him before he got out of the truck, by saying yes when the dispatcher asked “are you following him”, he could only mean that he was going in the same direction trying to see which way he went. TM must have spotted him from the other end of the sidewalk when GZ crossed the T and possibly looked down the sidewalk, Rachel says he says “O sh*t, he’s following me again, she tells him to run and he says he’s not going to run because he right by the apt. Then in her statement to the state attorney she says ABOUT TWO MINUTES later, he’s out of breath, talking low (whispering) saying the man was getting close but he wasn’t going to run, and she says she knew he wasn’t going to run because he was out of breath, and then she hears him confront GZ etc etc….. That could only mean that after TM spotted GZ, he ran back to the T, knowing he would have to come back that way to get to his truck, while whispering to RJ, he could hear him or see him approaching the T, and tells RJ he’s getting closer…. then he jumps out of the shawdows to confront him.

    • Zimmerman’s truck was never parked in front of the clubhouse. See the clubhouse security camera light pattern analysis here…

      Here’s my timeline of Zimmerman’s call to police…please post a link with the correct timeline if it’s not accurate.

      7:09:34 = Zimmerman’s call with police connects.

      7:10:29 = Trayvon leaves the clubhouse/mailboxes and walks east on Twin Trees.

      7:11:03 = Trayvon passes Zimmerman’s westwardly facing truck on Twin Trees — the vehicle is pointed towards the clubhouse with the headlights on.

      7:11:41 = Zimmerman says, “Shit, he’s running” — away from him.

      7:11:45 = Zimmerman opens his Ridgeline’s door and starts pursuing Trayvon on foot.

      7:12:22 = Zimmerman says, “He ran” — away from him.

      7:13:41 = Zimmerman hangs up with police.

      Maps I’ve drawn…

  9. OK I just saw your screenshots from the security cameras pretty blurry, don’t really show anything other that someone in a light colored vehicle drove down Twin Lakes the same night 3 minutes before GZ spotted TM.

    • This audio is one little snippet from the whole interview, He had already explained about how he had ended his call at the end of the sidewalk and was was walking back down the sidewalk past the T, and had already explained that was when TM jumped out at him and asked “What’s your problem”…and then she interrupts him because she’s interested in where his phone was so he explains that he had hung up from them and put it away before he was walking back, so when he said “walking back towards him” , what he obviously means if you actually listen to the entire, what he means is back toward where he had just told her TM had jumped him.

  10. Just saw DOJ say w/o further evidence they aren’t sure about a hate crime charge. Would clubhouse vds be new evidence. Could you send it to them. This new hate crime laws is only 4 yrs. old so guessing there’s not a great deal of precedence.

    Maybe maybe maybe

  11. Can’t you just see Trayvon standing near his house and watching a slow moving Zimmerman walk from left to right at the top of the T while holding that silly little flashlight. When Zimmerman walked back to retrace his steps at the top of the T, Trayvon took it as an opportunity to ambush, sucker punch and then straddle Zimmerman while beating him further. The keys and the flashlight were found at the very top of the T indicating that that was where the first punch was issued. No one has yet to explain how the struggle could have occurred so close to Zimmerman’s truck if Zimmerman were actively pursuing anyone for a full 4 minutes.

      • No longer emailing …. Calling someone a troll doesn’t do much for your argument. I believe irrational and unwarranted anger is what got Trayvon in trouble in the first place. So someone is watching you from his truck. We are told all the time that young black men are used to being suspected of ill doing even when they are just innocently walking. A normal rational reaction would be to understand that someone observing you is not always a threat but very likely a misguided member of the community meaning no ill will. A healthy reaction is to try to lessen the perception that one is doing something wrong. Circling a truck with your hand in your waistband is indicative of irrational and troublesome hostility. This typical adrenaline and testosterone driven hostility is something that many teenagers both white and black soon learn to control. Trayvon, from all we know from this incident and previous incidents never learned to temper his hostility. A young man who reveled in fighting, possessed stolen property, was suspended three times from school and found on camera committing a minor act of vandalism was just the candidate for another act of irrational uncontrolled anti-social hostility. Adults soon learn that in order to survive in a modern world, they must learn to instill calm in others to avoid dangerous violence. Trayvon was not one to avoid violence, but instead was attracted to it. Very little that’s been said here can convince me that Trayvon, having had such a huge head start could have ended up only 100 feet from the place he fled from 4 minutes earlier. You and I and everyone who has ever fled potential danger knows that you do not run towards it but away from it unless you are looking for a confrontation. Calling me a troll is another kind of unwarranted hostility. We will all suffer unless men learn to become calm and rational. It is not a sign of lack of manhood to avoid confrontation. It’s a sign of wisdom — wisdom sorely and tragically lacking in young Trayvon.

      • So anyone who disagrees with your “theory” is a troll? There were witnesses in the building that backed up to the sidewalk at the top of the t and they heard voices right there, right at the t, the other witnesses said they heard the screaming moving south, like it was getting closer. Those are FACTS, eye and ear witness statements. Also the flashlight and keys were found at the T.

        • Witnesses said the voices *could* have been by the T. There are witnesses that saw a chase from south to north but you’re discrediting those.

          That, specifically, is why you’re a troll. And, you’ve only spewed Zimmerman troll talking points.

          • W2 was the ONLY witness who said in her original statement that she heard and saw something from south to north. She originally said she saw 2 people chasing each other , caught a glimpse out the window, then later in a longer interview she said that “she saw more than heard”, that she heard footsteps running, and she just caught a glimps of A PERSON, not two people chasing each other, A PERSON , that would have been TM after he doubled back to ambush George. She also said that after she saw A PERSON running by, that further down (by the T) she heard something like YO or NO, which is consistent with GZ saying that TM said “YO, what’s your f’ing problem?” Now she did not testify in the trial. Her sister did. Her sister had not mentioned anything about south to north in her original statement. I guess she decided to incorporate what her sister said and imbelished on it. She was pretty much discredited on cross examination, especially when O’mara showed her her own FB account where she had posted saying that she had signed the petition to arrest GZ.

            • It’s my understanding from bcclist commenters — though I haven’t verified this personally yet — that O’Mara (and you) mixed up W1 and W2’s statements.

              Of course, logic states an attack from the south at the T couldn’t have resulted in the shooting scene being located 40 feet (not “25 or so” feet as O’Mara kept repeating) south of the T.

            • Nope I am 100% positive. Witness # 1 was the lady who said she had taken her contacts off and caught a gliimpse of someone running toward the T. Witness 2 was the one who had said in her statement that she was at th kitchen window and she heard something, thought it was kids playing, went to the door to look out and saw John Good come out and ask what was going on and saying he was going to call 911, but she still thought it was kids. She said absolutely nohting whatsoever about hearing or seeing anything BEFORE the altercation started, and nothing about movement from one direction to the other. When the prosecution first called her I thought she WAS witness # 2, because w2 was the only witness who had said anything about any kind of movement toward the T. It was when O’mara started his cross examination and asking her why she was testifying to something that she had never said before in statements or in the deposition, and wasn’t she actually testifying to what her sister said she saw, that’s when I knew that she wasn’t W2. The links below will take you to their statements. Pay attention to the statements to the FDLE for more detail, also W2 had originally said she saw 2 people chasing each other but in her statement to FDLE she said that actually she heard more than saw, heard footsteps, and caught a glimpse of A PERSON (not 2 people chasing each other0.

              Witness 2:


              Selene Bahadoor- Witness 1:


            • But if the witness can only testify as to one person running from south to north, then this suggests It was Trayvon advancing to the attack on Zimmerman while he walked back to his truck and was surprised.

            • I am very familiar with both witnesses. There was a comment somewhere on this blog stating the two witness statements were confused because of language barriers/pronunciation. I’ll try to dig it up this week.

            • Language barrier? I think you have w1 and w2 mixed up with the lady who spoke Spanish. W1 is a black lady, so I’m assuming her sister is as well, and I did not detect a foreign accent in either of their statements.

            • Opps! That destroys the south to north theory. Let me assist “no longer emailing” with his theory that Zimmerman provoked the final encounter. Zimmerman used a special human magnet which forced Trayvon against his will to the top of the T.

            • Or, there was a chase from the south during Zimmerman’s unaccounted for 2 minutes. No chase from the south? Then somebody should explain what took Zimmerman 2 minutes to walk a hundred feet.

            • You have to understand that RAchel didn’t tell anybody about her conversation with TM for 3 weeks until supposedly TRacy contacted her. She couldn’t possiblly have remembered word for word everything TM had said in a conversation 3 weeks earlier. He might have said ‘he’s getting closer”, or he might have meant that he was behind wherever he was hiding and getting closer. The thing is that everytime she tells her story she makes it a point that he told her he was “right by his daddy’s gf’s apt”.

            • GZ right by the apt too. She said TM had told her he had lost him and was right by the apt….. if GZ had chased him down to the apt, he would have had to have done that while he was still on the phone with 911, also if he had chased him down to the apt, why didn’t the altercation happen there, and why would TM have run back to where they had both come from instead of the other way?

            • Nope, Zimmerman has 2 minutes of unaccounted for time. That is plenty of time to head south on Retreat View Circle to clear the back entrance.

              If I was Trayvon, I’d run the opposite direction of the creepy man. So, that means I’d run north towards the T.

              The debris field, other than the flashlight that Zimmerman presumably planted before the cops arrived, shows a possible south to north chase as well.

            • We’ve been through this several times. First of all it couldn’t have been a full 2 minutes. The altercation was already underway before Rachel’s connection went dead and we don’t know for how long. Why would GZ do that? He had lost sight of TM for over 2 minutes , if he went all the way down RVC looking for him, he would have gone to the back gate because that is where he thought he was headed. Why would he walk that far from his truck? No it makes no sense and there really wasn’t enough time.

            • It appears there was a chase from south to north with gz catching up to Trayvon right where he killed him. The Master Revisable Timeline, using the new info learned during trial from T-Mobil guy, gives the 911 call picking up, exactly 31 seconds after Rachel Jeantel lost contact. After checking the master timeline, use the “search this site” box for the string “Evidence of Direction”. gz went free, not because anyone thought he was right, but because the prosecution failed to make any case for Trayvon having any rights at all.

              Essentially they told the jury that while gz had the right as a stranger to follow the child, even the fact that he cause the child to fear for his own safety, gave him no right to defend himself at all. He should have, according to the trial testimony and closing argument, simply allowed and graciously accepted being assaulted and battered by gz, and he should have respectfully submitted, having no legal right to do anything at all about it.

            • That timeline proves nothing. RJ said that TM was “right by ” the apt that he’d lost the guy, THEN she says the phone cut off. She calls him back and shes still saying he was “right by” the apt, then when she talks about the altercation (which per her statement to the state attorney) was about TWO minutes later. All that proves is that TM made it safely to the apt and chose not to go in and that he later (out of breath per RJ) is at the T whispering to her that GZ is getting closer. He would not still be chit chatting with her if he was running for his life, no he was waiting for GZ to cross the T so he could ambush him.

              Rachel’s TV interviews are all over the place. On one of them she says that she believed that tM did strike the first blow. You are just going by theories and not by any of the facts.

            • Nothing at all can prove anything to a person with an agenda! There is no evidence at all that Trayvon ever struck Zimmerman at all. So your little attempt to create a scenario that favors the story you want to believe, fails miserably. But hey, that doesn’t mean that you’re going to give up trying to impress someone. That “someone”, however, will not be me! Don’t bother wasting your time!

            • No evidence ? DUH, an eye witness, injuries on GZ , none on TM… you are the one who is far fetched. All of the evidence supports what I’ve been saying, none of it supports yours.

            • Believing there was no evidence to believe that Trayvon beat Zimmerman is similar to the situation we have today with Zimmeman rendering aid to a family of an overturned SUV. You can read reactions from people like you that said “He must have staged the roll-over’. There is a hateful, ignorant and dangerous element in our society that no reason can overcome. People like that should stay out of discussions of social or legal justice and just discuss sports.

            • He got out of the truck AFTER he had already lost sight of TM, right AFTER the dispatcher asked which way he went, there is no way he could have caught up with him with that much of a head start, all he was trying to do was to see which way he went so he could tell the dispatcher. There is no evidence whatsoever that he persued him.

            • LOL, the magnet must have been in that big flashlight, you know the one that didn’t work, the one the prosecution kept waiving around acting like perhaps GZ might have used it as a weapon .

  12. Never was irrational anger expressed so eloquently as calling me effing crazy. Thank you for volunteering to an object lesson we can all learn from

      • I have considered the possibility of a chase from south to north, and here’s why I feel it is so highly unlikely …. First of all Zimmerman would have had to see Trayvon at a distance of 300 feet. Unlike Zimmerman , Trayvon would not have been holding a flashlight to signal his whereabouts. Zimmerman would have had to wander down there and locate him by luck or extraordinary skill. (unlikely). Then he would have had to have had a way to scare Trayvon to get him to run north. (and he could have used a gun to do this) If he used a gun to cause Trayvon to run, under what circumstances would the slower Zimmerman have been able to catch up?

        • Most of all – under what circumstances would the faster man after having been chased 300 feet, now turn on his armed attacker ?

  13. I take everything back I ever said about Zimmerman needing to employ self defense and Trayvon initiating the confrontation. The reason I now believe Zimmerman was the aggressor is that I just saw Rachael Jantel’s interview with Piers Morgan. She cleared up everything for me. She explained that Trayvon had an Android phone and it shuts off with a clapping sound (or a punch). Therefore, Trayvon had to be on the bottom. (huh?!!). Then she explained that Zimmerman was getting “whoop aaasss” not a “bash” or a beat down. In her area “whoop aaasss” apparently isn’t so serious as to demand deadly force. Also, she informed us that Trayvon was getting “creeped out” because he was worried that he was going to be raped. She additionally explains that “if a man or a boy is not that way then he would be creeped out and need to whooop aaasss but not bash”.. (wtf?!)

      • Are you kidding me? I mean, in order to convict George Zimmerman of some version of murder the state had to prove an you have to believe that he initiated a violent confrontation. In order to do that you have to show that Zimmerman did not return to his car after he was told “we don’t need you to follow” and you have to believe and the state had to prove that he pursued Trayvon to his house even though Trayvon was likely already home and even though he had a short time to do this and even though he had no idea which way Trayvon went. If the confrontation initiated and it was proven it started close to Trayvon’s house and not close to Zimmerman’s truck the state would have a shot at a conviction. However, the injuries were all to Zimmerman and the grass stains were on Zimmerman’s back and the bullet wound indicated that Trayvon was leaning over Zimmerman at the time he was shot, and here is the biggest point in relation to Rachael Jeantel was…. SHE WAS THE STATE’S ONLY WITNESS AND SHE WAS THE STATE’S STAR WITNESS … her testimony was illogical, she was caught lying, she was hostile and contradictory and not only barely intelligible but also barely audible. She was the State’s only chance and she turned out to be the state’s biggest nightmare. Put this together with the fact that the state did not even propose what, when and where they thought things happened. and you had basically no chance at a conviction. The defense told us exactly what, when and where things happened and the forensic evidence agreed with that, and a credible, intelligible and audible witness corroborated that Zimmerman was on the bottom getting beaten up. “All this and you dare say debating George Zimmerman Supporters is worthless”? I think that your pointless comment should be on the other foot. We believe and with good reason that Trayvon returned home and doubled back to attack Zimmerman close to his truck, and not one piece of evidence or one credible witness including Jeantel refuted that conclusion. Do you actually think Jeantel was a good witness for the State?

          • You’re having such a hard time understanding the State had no credible explanation of what happened and therefore had to lose. In the end the State even accepted the scenario where Trayvon was on top and offered no other alternative. The last thing they offered, in a desperate attempt to win a conviction, was that even though Trayvon was beating on Zimmerman, Trayvon tried to retreat IN THE LAST FEW SECONDS of his life and therefore it was murder. The retreat, they seemed to suggest, was that when he was shot he was attempting or beginning to get off. In the end, the forensic report concluded that he was STILL LEANING OVER when the bullet entered his chest. In my opinion and in the opinion of the jury “still leaning over” doesn’t qualify as much of a retreat and Trayvon was still seen as the aggressor.

            As an aside, it turns out that the Miami Dade School Police classified the 12 items of stolen women’s jewelry and the one stolen watch that were found in Trayvon’s backpack as “found items” and gave it a Miami Dade School case number instead of giving it a Police Case number. If they had given it a proper Dade Police Number, the items would have corresponded to a burglary that occurred only a few blocks from the school that Trayvon attended. For the record, Trayvon said that these stolen items were “given to him” but he could not remember “who gave it to him”. Perhaps Zimmerman correctly profiled Trayvon as a potential burglar when he called 911 as some evidence seems to suggest that Trayvon might have been involved in the previous burglary.

            Perhaps you would have also found Zimmerman not guilty if you had listened to all the evidence and been on that jury.

          • Don’t know , don’t care, I see where you are coming from, basing your opinions on nothing but far fetched speculation of what could of happened because you want desparately to believe the narrative put out there by the race baiters and the media, instead of what the facts and the evidence tell anybody who is objective.

  14. I just stumbled on this page. I enjoyed the comments about things being “indisputable,” like someone “indisputably” caused fear in someone. Yes, that’s something that can be proven in court and is indisputable, especially when the person is dead. And I would like to know exactly where in the Florida penal code it says that causing fear is a prosecutable offense – if this is true, surely one can easily quote where it is? And oh, yes, it’s a prosecutable offense but the prosecution just decided not to bring it it up at trial, who knows why. I know the comments go on for bit after that nice little piece, but I couldn’t stomach them, especially when they resort to silly things. The maps are conjecture, one shouldn’t pretend they are anything more. And as to that, I find what gringz and Garth Libre say on this page to be the most persuasive and reasonable.

    Thousands are killed every year, the vast majority of them black on black and white on white. You can verify this yourself, on the FBI’s site. Where is the outrage and blogs and maps about that? Hmm, I think I hear crickets.

    Truth is, I would think it’s pretty common to watch who might be walking through your neighborhood, especially at night. I know that when anyone parks in front of my family’s house, we all peak out the window. And if you thought someone looked out of place (rightly or wrongly), you would also keep an eye on them. Black, white, brown, male, female. And if it’s warm Florida, you might also look twice at someone in a hoodie, or a hooded jacket. What if it had been a trenchcoat? You’d certainly look. Would we then have images of MLK Jr. in a trenchcoat?

    I’m not saying racism is ok, or that shooting people is ok, or that racial profiling doesn’t exist. I’m not convinced that racism was ever really a factor. And yet, that’s why everyone is so worked up about this particular case, right? Don’t they have a photo that seems to show that Zimmerman’s great-grandfather was black? Oh, but our half-white president is black, and yet Zimmerman is white (or the great “white hispanic.”) Race-baiters jumped on this incident, and a whole bunch of people fell for it.

    • Of course “causing one to fear” is not a crime in this country. People by their very nature are a fearful sort. Children fear the dark, even adults can fear irrationally. Fear only plays a part in this case in that if 1)If Trayvon feared for his safety, he had 4 minutes to return to his house which was approximately 600 feet away from the place where he began to run. (30 seconds max were needed to run those 600 feet, even at a slow jog) 2) For Zimmerman, fear plays a role too …. He had reason to fear for his life when he describes Trayvon approaching his car and making a circle around his car with his hand in his waistband 3) We have to decide when Zimmerman left his car if it makes sense to follow someone with one’s eyes from a safe distance for the purpose of telling the police which way Trayvon was headed. 4) We have to decide if the injuries that Zimmerman received along with being pinned and beaten by Trayvon was sufficient to “fear for one’s life” and was sufficient to feel no means of retreat and finally sufficient to use deadly force in order to protect one’s life.

      Ultimately neither the State nor anyone on this board gave a convincing argument that Trayvon could not have easily returned to his house if he had wanted to. Ultimately, the question of how if Trayvon had 4 entire minutes to move about, he managed to end those 4 minutes in a confrontation with Zimmerman at a location only 100 to 125 feet from where he (Trayvon) began. Neither the State nor anyone on this board gave a convincing argument why we should not believe that Trayvon not only did not want to return home, but out of anger decided to teach Zimmerman a lesson as Mr. Zimmerman attempted to return to his car.

      Certainly the issue of profiling, and racial programming plays a part in all of this. People are incapable of mentally disregarding race, sex, height, sexual orientation, age, weight, clothing, walking style and a million other factors from the instantanious mental calculations we make every minute – every day. The human brain is designed rightly or wrongly but by evolution to make subconscious decisions based on vague impressions and past experience and yes, the feeling that humans have about black males being more involved in crime can not be taken out of the picture, no matter how many laws are passed against it, and no matter how much we preach against the evils of profiling. When Jesse Jackson said when he fears footsteps behind him at night he is relieved to see that when he turns back there is not a young black male behind him, he is relating the subconscious computation that his brain makes. Here evolution speaks silently but emphatically. Perhaps in another 30 years, if this country eliminates the disparity of poverty in this country, that fear of young black men will no longer make sense and will cease to exist, however fear of young men regardless of their color will never disappear because I’m convinced that young men will always be the statistically greater perpetrators of crimes of all types. Perhaps, if we are lucky trials like this will not center around race and subtle hints of race but on sex and age. I’m looking forward to a better world where people of color are not economically in a worse position. I’m optimistic that we can have a world like that one day, and I’m convinced we are slowly and painfully moving there.

      • Causing fear is assault in Florida and unlawful.

        Why did it take Zimmerman 2+ minutes to walk a few feet back to the T? Did Trayvon make it back home — to a locked door without a key — before being chased back to the T from the south by a creepy man? Witness statements suggest this to be true.

    • It was RAINING in Florida that night, RShaw. You notice that Zimmerman had a jacket on. Trayvon had visited there before and, according to reports, had played football with the other teenagers living there, so not a complete stranger to other residents. A lot of the residents of the community were black and other minorities.
      The police report listed Zimmerman as W/M (white male), which is probably why reporters called him a “white Hispanic”.

  15. It is far from indisputable that Zimmerman caused any fear in Mr. Martin. Logic tells us that if Martin felt any fear at all, he would have traveled much farther than 100 to 125 feet away from Zimmerman in the period of four minutes. Any reasonable person would be led to believe that he would have easily traveled the entire distance (600 feet) to the safety of his house in the those 4 minutes. The evidence shows that not only was Martin not afraid, but that he backtracked 500 feet to confront Zimmerman. Any man who mounts and beats his opponent, repeatedly striking blows would not likely be experiencing fear until the very moment that Zimmerman was able to draw his weapon. Certainly, the meek Zimmerman had no intention of striking fear in anyone, but only meant to see where Martin was headed from a safe distance (as he was instructed to do by 911). It would be impossible to strike fear in anyone in the process of returning to one’s automobile. Can one create fear by retreating? Was it even possible that Zimmerman was not returning to his car? Was it even possible that Martin was not backtracking for the final confrontation with Zimmerman? I think not – the jury agreed.

    • “It is far from indisputable that Zimmerman caused any fear in Mr. Martin.”

      You mean aside from the unarmed teen expressing fear of a creepy man watching him and then running away from the armed vigilante?

      Why did it take Zimmerman 2+ minutes to walk a few feet back to the T en route to “his truck?”

      Did Trayvon make it back home — to a locked door without a key — before being chased back to the T from the south by a creepy man? Witness statements suggest this to be true.

      • One witness suggested that she heard sounds coming from south to north along the dog path (from the bottom of the T to the top of the T), but that sound is more likely to be associated with Trayvon running up and surprising Zimmerman as he returned to his truck. As far Trayvon returning home to a locked door and being chased back north — indeed that is a possibility. It makes sense that someone might run back north if they were surprised from the south. If Zimmerman happened upon Trayvon by following him from the North to the South (more likely), than Trayvon would have naturally fled by exiting the South exit. If you believe Trayvon was surprised by Zimmerman taking the long way around and then pulling his weapon causing Trayvon to run up to the top of the T (heading north towards Zimmerman’s car), then you’d have to eventually come to grips with another problem with this theory. If Trayvon were being chased by an armed Zimmerman, under no circumstance would Trayvon turn around and confront Zimmerman, and no one can convince me that Zimmerman could have caught up with Trayvon either. No, I’m sorry….. the most logical and perhaps only explanation is that Trayvon ambushed Zimmerman by heading North as Zimmerman slowly walked back to his truck. As far as explaining why it took Zimmerman two minutes to walk only 100 feet back to his car (half the 200 feet back to his car) … it makes sense if he was still looking around to see if Trayvon were in the vacinity. I’ve walked slowly and cautiously in this manner myself at times. If Zimmerman had walked south down the dogpath, and not seen Trayvon, it would also account for those 2 minutes to retrace his path back to his car (500 walking makes for a good estimate for the time frame.) In any of these scenarios, it would appear most likely that Trayvon retraced his steps, ambushed Zimmerman and then beat him up in a straddle position. To think otherwise is not impossible but unlikely. Therein you have the reason for the jury’s decision.

        • Trayvon was a helpless teenager, no fighting skills at all. Why anyone would assume that he would want to confront a total stranger of unknown abilities, who was bigger and appeared older and stronger than himself, against whom he could not envision himself overcoming physically, is some pretty bad guess work. He also had his hands full with the skittles, iced tea and a phone to control. And he was in conversation when he discovered gz behind him again. He ran! He was over taken and we heard him plead “what are you following me for?” At which point an innocent NW would have identified himself, explained what his problems were and asked that Trayvon stay and wait for the police to arrive.

          gz did not do that, he immediately became offensive and started grappling with Trayvon! Causing Trayvon’s phone to fall to the ground. When Trayvon’s call disconnected, something pretty significant happened immediately because W-11’s 911 call begins only 35 seconds after the disconnect. It takes about that long to connect to 911, meaning that she had to begin dialing almost as soon as Trayvon’s call disconnected. What did she hear, almost immediately after gz grabbed Trayvon, that caused her to pick up her phone and dial immediately?

          We know that Trayvon never laid a hand on gz at all. We do know that gz had not only a superior physical advantage over Trayvon, but that he had self defense training and knew of grappling and wrist control methods. These are painful holds, so we can be pretty sure that gz employed one immediately upon confronting Trayvon.

          gz was assaulting Trayvon from the first moment Trayvon noticed that he was being followed. gz was committing a crime and therefore had no self defense claim, too bad the prosecution did not bring that up at the trial, but acted as though gz had every legal right to cause Trayvon to fear for his safety, contrary to the Florida laws.

            • I can’t believe that there are people thinking that Trayvon had no fighting skills. He was a man who idealized fighting, and was filmed as a referee for a street fight (film readily available on Youtube). I can’t believe that people are claiming that Zimmerman was a trained fighter. During the trial, his teacher of about 6 months (his only fighting teacher) claimed that Zimmerman had no fighting skills and couldn’t throw a right cross and was horribly out of shape. I can’t believe that people are saying the Zimmerman could have caught up with Trayvon. Trayvon was without any doubt the faster man, and additionally Trayvon was fully 5 inches taller than Zimmerman (5 11″ as opposed to 5’6″). If there were any fear in Trayvon he could have easily escaped Zimmerman. On the 911 tape you can hear that Zimmerman ran for less than 30 seconds before he began to walk. Trayvon was street smart, not opposed to fighting and I believe texted about his own fight in the weeks prior to this incident. Trayvon was not a shrinking violet, having been expelled three times from school and currently on a suspension for possession of burglary tools and a dozen or so items of stolen women’s jewelry for which he had no explanation for other than “I don’t remember who gave it to me”. Obviously the proponents of Trayvon being a scared little boy who was only trying to run for his life, are living in an alternate universe. Thank goodness there was no one so absolutely silly like that on the jury. The jury pegged Trayvon for the troubled, man he was. Zimmerman was not obviously a stronger opponent at all. Does anyone have an explanation for why Zimmerman described on a live call that Trayvon was circling Zimmerman’s car with his hand under his belt as if to suggest he had a gun.? Clearly Trayvon was a street smart man who thought himself a tough menacing threat. Who circles someone’s car pretending to have a gun other than a thug?

            • It is amazing how people want to totally IGNORE all of the FACTS and the EVIDENCE and go only by their initial reaction to the “news story” that was FED to the so called Main Stream Media, put out there by a PR firm. The idea that someone thinkgs that GZ was chasing TM the whole time after TM told RJ that the “creepy azz cracka” was following him is totally absurd. I’m trying to picture GZ with a cellphone in one hand and a gun in the other hand chasing TM down while talking calmly to the dispatcher for 2 minutes after he had already LOST him. It makes no sense whatsoever.

            • Garth and gringz: Trayvon was not a man–he was a teen, only two weeks past his 17th birthday. He was 3″ taller than Zimmerman and weighed FORTY-SIX lbs. LESS. He was suspended once for too many tardies/absences, another time for writing on one locker, and the last time for having an empty bag with marijuana residue in it–NOT for any jewelry as you claim. The jewelry was reported to Miami-Dade police, but they never had a report of that jewelry missing or stolen.
              Somebody’s reading Stormfront or other KKK sites too much.

            • I don’t know what website you’ve been reading. The official height and weight of the two men at the time of the incident are : Mr. Martin (5 feet 11 inches and 158 lbs)
              Mr. Zimmerman (5 feet 6 to 7 inches and 185 lbs)
              This means that that Zimmerman was not 3 inches shorter but 4 to 5 inches shorter and not 46 pounds heavier but only 27 pounds heavier).
              You are stating the Mr. Martin was suspended for writing on a locker, but the school police described the incident as writing WTF with a magic marker on a door not a locker. This was captured on school security cameras and nothing was said “about writing on a locker” which sounds like a much more timid act. During the process of searching Mr. Martin’s locker and backpack, 12 items of women’s jewelry were found and one man’s watch and a bag containing marijuana residue. Mr. Martin had no explanation for where he got the items, and school personal have since been disciplined for not reporting the goods as possibly stolen in the police report, and only confiscating them and calling them “found items”. According to school police, this was an attempt to lower the reported crime rate for the school.
              The insistence of calling Mr. Martin a boy and not a man is a convenient technicality. Most people are well aware of the physical threat that so called boys are capable of. One can enlist in the US military with parental consent at age 17. At age 18, one can enlist without parental consent. When I turned 18 in 1972, I had an enormous amount of difficulty trying to stay out of the draft (this was during the Vietnam war). Apparently the Vietnam war, the Korean war and World War 2 were both fought using these so called “boys” of 17 years of age. The suggestion that a 17 year old is under some disadvantage or unprepared to engage in a fist fight is absurd. Mr. Martin was not only prepared and capable of a physical encounter with a shorter but admittedly somewhat heavier man, but all indications are that physical encounters had a special appeal to him.

            • Stormfront or KKK? Really? Apparently you know nothing about those two organizations. Neither of them would be defending a Hispanic with a black ancestor, who was half Jewish , and a practicing Catholic. Those are 4 reasons that those racists would not support GZ. To state that someone who believes the account of one minority (an Afrio-Peruvian, Jewish, practicing Catholic) over the speculations of those who WANT desperately to believe that the black kid was just an innocent small child incapable of assault makes you the RACIST. You want to believe the PR story put out there by the Martin’s attorneys and their PR person instead of believing the actual evidence just because the alledged victim happened to be black. TM was not a small child. He was a tall athletic young man who had been in a LOT Of trouble for fighting, stealing, smoking dope, according to his own social media and texts he was also selling marajuana. He was into fighting big time. One of his gfs texted several times about how he needed to stop fighting, and how it was going to get him in more trouble etc. He was not the innocent little skittle eating kid portrayed by the PR person who fed the story to the so called main stream media.

            • TM was not the little kid portrayed by the photos the parents gave to the PR PERSON who put out the story that the lap dog media l, apped up about a poor little innocent kid who wanted to be, was an astranaut or a rocket scientest when he grew up , who had good grades and the only trouble he was in was over some tardies……. Nope he was a steetwise kid, a tall muscular kid who loved to fight MMA style, belonged to a fight club, and braged about his fights and talked about a kid who was “gonna have to see him again” because he didn’t bleed enough. He was a dope smoking , lean drinking,, burgular. The FACT that his burgulary did not get reported as a crime was because of a policy of the MIami DAde school district to keep young black men out of prison, to make it look like that crimes commited by black teens had gone down in their district. They did a diservice to TM by only giving him a slap on the hand and suspending him (3 times). Suspending a kid who cuts school is not much of a punishment is it? Nope TM was a thug who loved to beat the crap out of other people, not the cherubic little kid in that read Hollister T-shirt.

            • Garth, much as you’d like to believe Zimmerman weighed only 185, the PA report from the very next day says, “At 5 feet 71/2″ and 204 lbs., the physician assistant at Altamont Family Practice described Zimmerman as ‘obese.'” (
              Zimmerman trained in MMA and police restraint techniques at the Kokopelli Gym at least 2-3 X a week for at least 2 years.
              As far as the rest of your claims, I’ll have to deal with them when I get home next week. In the meantime, why don’t you provide the sources for your claims, as I did above.

            • That GZ was obese gives TM even more of an advantage. I know if I had to fight someone off , I’d be more afraid of a tall lanky muscular athletic young man than a late 20s out of shape obese short guy. The MMA training was the only classes available when GZ signed up, he went for the EXERCISE. Did you not listen to the testimony by the instrucor, GZ sucked at it, and the guy said he was soft. It was TM who was really into MMA fighting, bragging all over social media about it., and there is a video of him refereeing an MMA fight , he was a member of a fight club.

            • You asked me to give you a verification and a source for my claim that Zimmerman was not a 200 plus sized man. How about the booking document filled out just after the time of the shooting? This is a copy of the original booking document. Bear in mind that the height here is listed as 5′ 8″, however this would indicate an actual height of at least one inch less because the height is measured as you pass in front of a measuring chart taped to the wall. They do not ask you to take off your shoes before being assessed. That would mean his actual height is almost certainly 5’7″ or less. As far as his weight … the booking document lists it as 185 pounds. I don’t know if they actually weighed him or if they estimated it after asking him. If they measured it, than his actual weight would almost certainly be at least 5 pounds less, because of the additional weight of the shoes and pants, shirt etc….. This is the substantiation of my claim that Zimmerman weighted 180 and his height was between 5’7 and 5’8″. Trayvon was about 20 plus pounds lighter and 3 to 4 inches taller. He was in much better shape too, and he would certainly have had the advantage over Zimmerman in any physical confrontation.

              Click to access george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf

            • Thank you as well for the all the find and difficult work you did in the effort to bring out the truth. This case and it’s outrageous outcome has made everyone sick to their stomachs. There’s not a person alive who believes that the prosecution could not win this case. The prosecutors know about assault, they deal with such laws and charges almost daily. They knew what they were doing as they were making a terrible effort to lose! Too bad we can’t get a do over when prosecutors intentionally lose.

            • To Lonnie Star … I find it outrageous that you are now saying that the prosecution deliberately lost this case. If anything, the prosecution did an admirable job. The State’s opening statement and closing statements were almost universally praised for its passion and clear intent to win. During the trial, experts on TV news shows consistently stated that they could not predict the outcome, largely because of the strength and thepower of the State attorney’s presentation. They clearly did the best they could, and no one who cares about the truth can now seriously say they didn’t give it their best effort. The State even went as far as asking the court to consider an alternate and lesser charge after closing statements, (manslaughter by way of child abuse). The judge would not permit this and the consensus of legal opinion is that the State had the option of charging manslaughter or murder 2 but may not pull a last minute ambush just because they appeared unable to close the deal. No State Attorney deliberately throws a case of this magnitude. I believe you have made a serious mistake in logic here. The State simply could not prove what they believed happened beyond a reasonable doubt. They lacked the eye witnesses and a convincing alternative theory to what the defense presented.

            • Garth, your theory is ridiculous in the extreme. gz was a criminal, in the act of committing a crime he had been warned not to do. Trayvon had every right to run away from him. He was and is a dangerous person!

            • Garth’s “theory” is not a theory it is Zimmerman’s account of what happened which the prosecution could not prove was a lie. Every other theory put out there of any other way it could have happened makes no sense. The prosecution couldn’t even come up with a theory that would be consistant with the evidence and the eye witness accounts. They pretty much had to conced that it aw TM who assaulted GZ because there is absolutely no other explanation that works with the KNOWN facts. . They didn’t throw the case as you suggested. They did everything in their power to make sure that a large portion of the evidence that should have been seen and heard by the jury was not even allowed.

            • Lonnie – That’s just it, and you hit the nail on the head exactly. The State tried their best to make the case that Zimmerman was committing a crime after having been warned not to. They absolutely did their best, but in the end a jury decided that there WAS NO PROOF that Zimmerman did something he was told not to do. He said, and the jury believed, that he was returning to his car after being told that “we don’t need you to follow”. All the evidence showed that he was indeed returning back to his vehicle because the shooting occurred within 100 feet of said vehicle. The State did everything in their power to show an evil intent, but they could not. The State did everything in their power to show that Zimmerman somehow initiated a confrontation, but the jury did not believe this either.

              My question to you, Mr. Starr, is why do you believe that the State “threw the case”? You can believe whatever you want about Zimmerman’s guilt, but I can see no evidence that the State did not prosecute this case the best way they could. Perhaps if you believe that the State deliberately threw the case without any evidence to suggest that, than this is a clue as to why you believe Zimmerman committed a crime – also without any evidence.

  16. I apologize, Zimmerman’s actual height is most likely between 5’6″‘ and 5’7″, not between 5’7″ and 5’8″ as listed above. 5’8″ minus plus one inch heels would make him under 5″7″, not under 5’8″. My bad.

    • I imagine what happened with the police report (which, BTW, lists Zimmerman as W for white) is they said, “Hey, George! How much do you weigh?” And Zimmerman lied about his weight, as he lied about so many other things. Remember, it was the DOCTOR’S OFFICE the very next day that reported Zimmerman was 5′ 7 1/2″ and 204 lbs. I believe the doctor’s office report.

      • The list director asks that we give sources for every statistic or fact that we offer, especially if the fact is in dispute. Please give a link to the doctor’s report you mentioned. I believe that Zimmerman weighed differently at different times during the year before the shooting. A doctor’s report of that year but not pertaining to that exact day might say 205 lbs. My instinct based on the video that Zimmerman made the following day is that he could not possibly have weighed as much as 200 lbs. At 5’7″ inches with his little bone structure (tiny hands, narrow shoulders, average hips etc), the weight of 180 or so makes much more sense for a man with not much muscle. Unless a man is rather muscular, at only 5’7″ height and a weight of 200 plus pounds, he would have looked much bigger in my opinion. In the video he actually looked rather smallish.

      • I have to admit I was wrong. I found a copy of his next day medical report. I was confused because the fire rescue report shows Zimmerman’s weight as 185 but the doctor report of 2/27/12 does clearly state his weight as 204. It also shows his pulse as mid 90’s which indicates for me that he was severely out of shape. Even under stress, a man’s pulse should not rise that high when merely sitting in a doctor’s office. His blood pressure is 130/80 which is also bad (borderline) for a man in his 20’s. Here is the link I was able to find. For the record, I was truly fooled. He does look smaller in the video to me.

  17. That’s NOT what happened. TM knocked GZ toward the T, GZ was stumbling backwards trying to fend TM off when he lost his balance and fell down and then TM mounted him MMA style and proceeded to bash his head into the sidewalk. Common sense would tell you that if TM had landed a punch that broke someone’s noes he would be running away from him, and the person would be too disorientated to catch up with him. As for the witnesses, the ones who lived at the END of the T said the altercation started right there by their apts, the only one that said anything about it moving TOWARD the T was that one witness who had not even said anything like that in her initial statements, nor her statemets to the state atty or to the defense UNTIL she testified. It was her SISTER, not her (who didn’t testify at the trial) who said in her statemet to the state atty that she HEARD footseps like running , and caught a glimps of A PERSON (not 2 people chasing each other) running toward the T. That had to be TM when he doubled back to assault GZ, per RJ’s testimony that he had told her he was “right by his daddys apt)

    • Have you forgotten, gringz, that it was ZIMMERMAN who had at least two years (2/3 X a week) of training in MMA and police restraint techniques at the Kokopelli Gym? Zimmerman fell, as he admitted, probably over a sprinkler head, very slightly injuring the back of his head. Zimmerman probably grabbed Trayvon by the right wrist with his left hand (police restraint technique), and then shot him, just to prove he was a macho man in his own deluded mind.

      • PULEEZE! GZ took some classes for exercise, he sucked at fighting, the trainer said so, said he’d never put him in the ring……. Lots of people take those kinds of classes. TM was a street fighter, he bragged on social media about his fights, talked about the kid who was going to have to see him again because he didn’t bleed enough. He was a member of a fight club. GZ may very well have tripped over a sprinkler. He was backing away from TM and disorientated because he’d just had his nose broken. WE KNOW that TM MOUNTED GZ. If GZ had fallen down and hit his head on the sidewalk, why would TM have had the need to straddle him and hold him down. Probably grabbed TM by the wrist (where do you get that?) you’re making stuff up. Witnesses saw them both on the ground with TM on Top , they were not standing when the shot was fired. Even the prosecution did not present that theory because there was too much evidence that proved otherwise. NOBODY , not one witness reported seeing them when they were both standing up.

        • And now you find, gringz, that Zimmerman is bragging about his boxing abilities, which he said he developed before “the incident.” Apparently his trainer was lying on the stand, ranking his fighting ability as 1 to 1.5 on a 10 point scale. Zimmerman (!) wants to box someone for his own personal charity. It’ll be interesting to see how that works out, since he won’t be allowed to take a gun into the ring.

          • Zimmerman trained at a self defense gym which included MMA training. Talking about boxing was a red herring because when ypi your target is 50lbs lighter than you you don’t need to know how to box like Joe.Frazier to defend yourself. Actually we’ve all seen fights on YouTube and those people are not trained professionals which isn’t a requirement for self preservation. Martin was dead a minute or so after he came face to face with Zimmerman. Therefore, Zimmerman was in control the entire time, that’s the only way you kill someone that quickly and with a precision front to back shot.

            • The only time GZ was in control was AFTER he struggled off the sidewalk and managed to get the gun before TM did. When he fired the shot , that was the ONLY time he was in control.

            • They were wrestling over something. If Martin was so much stronger than Zimmerman then Martin should have been able to take the gun that both Zimmerman and Osterman confirmed they were wrestling for and he should have been able to shoot Zimmerman with it. The reason Martin was not able to do so is because he was never as strong Zimmerman to begin with. If he were stronger than Zimmerman from the beginning then by the time he bashed Zimmerman’s head 25 times he should have been an additional 25 times more stronger than Zimmerman. However, Zimmerman describes and both Good, Manolo and Surdyka saw a type of “wrestling.” The very fact that Zimmerman won a “wrestling” match with someone he claims had just beaten him until he was about to lose consciousness lets you know he is lying. The gun did not appear at the last minute, the wrestling was caused by the appearance of the gun. That is why the wrestling was over in one minute.

            • They weren’t wrestling over anything. GZ was trying to get TM off of him. Your own argument is proving just the opposite of what you are trying to prove. If the altercation started BECAUSE of the appearance of the gun, the person who was winning the altercation would have been able to get control of the gun. GZ was screaming for help because he was being beaten. Those screams lasted for at least 40 seconds before the gun went off and John Good saw TM on top of GZ seconds before that happened. We know that TM was beating GZ because GZ had injuries and TM did not.

          • Yeah I saw that, pretty stupid , he’s going to get his azz kicked, at least there will be a referee to stop it. Apparently he has been taking lessons since theen but at the time he was not a fighter and I doubt very seriously that he is now, I guess he’s just desparate for money.

          • No matter what you think about the level of Zimmerman’s fighting skills, one thing is certain. Those skills were no match for Martin. Martin quickly got the best of him and ended up on top. He pounded away and was shot by Zimmerman who then fired up. You might believe as some do, that Martin was in the process of retreating, but you also must believe that he was straddling Zimmerman at the moment he may have made that decision to back off.

            • There is no way a teenager got the best of a grown man who TRAINED in self-defense for a year and did so quickly. We know this for a certainty because Zimmerman claims he was punched at the T and yet the body ended up 40 feet from that area. If you punch a person and they move TOWARDS YOU to the tune of 40 feet then you did not quickly subdue them. If Zimmerman’s story is true then Trayvon retreated back towards the direction he had originally came from and Zimmerman went towards Trayvon as Trayvon retreated. However, we know that didn’t happen because both Surdyka and Manalo looked out of their window when they heard the argument that Zimmerman failed to tell police he and Martin had and when they looked outside they saw nothing. The argument alone proves Zimmerman was never sucker punched because you don’t argue with someone with your back to them. The fact that Manalo and Surdyka went to their window more than one time when they heard this loud exchange and didn’t see anything until the third time they went back to look tells us it never started at the T. So Zimmerman left out the arguing part and CLEARLY lied about this ever starting at the T were he claims the only thing ever said was a brief exchange where Zimmerman said “I don’t have a problem” and was punched. That’s a complete lie. Since those two key parts of his story (1. didn’t argue and 2. was punched at the T) were debunked by both the location of the body and eye witnesses I have no reason to believe Martin quickly subdued Zimmerman and started beating him. If Zimmerman is not honest about how it started surely he isn’t honest about what happened afterwards. That was confirmed by John Good who didn’t see a single punch being thrown. John Good’s testimony (the so-called best eyewitness) debunks Zimmerman’s claim of ever being beaten by Martin. The only thing we are left with is Zimmerman’s admission that Trayvon saw that gun. Therefore the only reason they were on the ground was because there was a struggle over the gun, the struggle being with Trayvon trying not to get shot. Therefore the only reason why Martin is dead is because that is Zimmerman intended when he left his car with a loaded gun.

            • There are plenty of teenagers who are street fighters like TM who are sucker punching grown men and getting the best of them. There have been dozens of people who have been attacked by teens even younger than TM playing the knockout game. We know that TM was a street fighter who liked to make people bleed. GZ took a class for exercise that used some self defens movements in the training, lots of people take those kinds of classes for the exercise and are not really capable of winning any kind of fight, especially if they are sucker punched. Zimmerman’s story is that TM got in front of him and sulcker punched him and that he stumbled back. 40 feet is not really that far. He wasn’t moving TOWARDS TM , he was backing away from him as TM had gotten in front of him as he was attempting to return to his truck. Surdyka’s testimony makes no sense, she was confused, she heard 3 shots. Manolo based her opinon on who was on top AFTERWARDS based on the pictures of both TM and GZ which made TM look like an itty bitty kid. Neither of them could see who was who, they wre too far away and it was dark . When GZ turned his back on TM to walk back to his truck, he had assumed the “argument” was over. TM: “What’s you problem MF” GZ “I don’t have a problem” turns to walk back to his truck, then TM runs in front of him and sucker punches him in the nose. Makes perfect sense. If the altercation started because TM saw the gun, then TM would have been the one to wind up with it since he was obvioudly beating the crap out of GZ. He was winning the fight. If the gun had come out earlier before the fight ensued, GZ would have dropped it and with TM having him pinned down he never would have been able to reach it. You are grasping at straws. If GZ’s intent had been to shoot TM he would have had his gun pulled as he was “following” him. He just happened to have a concealed weapon with him that he carried everywher he went. TM picked the wrong person to play the knockout game with.

            • Look dumb ass. TRAYVON MARTIN WAS NOT A STREET FIGHTER. He had a fight with a class mate, SOMEONE HE COULD SEE AGAIN likely at school. I used to do the same thing, if someone beat me the first time I was determined to fight them again because I wanted to win. But just like in Trayvon’s case THEY WERE KIDS MY AGE NOT GROWN ASS ADULT WOMEN. Trayvon would not have gotten in trouble at school for “street fighting” you ignorant clown, he would only get in trouble for fighting an EQUAL OPPONENT otherwise known as a teenage kid like himself. That has nothing to do with the grown ass Zimmerman chasing and instigating a confrontation with someone who was on the phone and carrying treats.

            • TM didn’t just have one fight with a classmate, there were posts on social media with people asked him if he were fighting again, and how he better stop , and another post about him slugging a bus driver. TM enjoyed violence and voilent behaviour. He thought that 2 homeless men beating another homeless man over a bicycle was funny, so much so that he filmed and narrated it (that’s where you can hear how deep his voice was, I was shocked that it was so deep). He was not a little kid , AS for age, an in shape 6 ft plus skinny kid who enjoyed fighting has an EXTREME advantage over an older out of shape shorter person who took some classes to loose weight . I can’t relate to you in your fighting as I have never hit another person in my life,and have never had a desire to. The only time I would “fight” would be to defend myself, and if someone sucker punched me and continued to beat me after I was screaming for help and I felt I was in danger of serious physical harm or death, and I had a gun, yeah I would use it. TM was looking for a fight. He wanted to teach the “crazy azz cracka” a lesson. There is no evidence that GZ instigated any confrontation, no evidence that GZ ever “chased” TM , nor that he initiated anything. The evidence is that it was TM who initiated the verbal confrontation, and the injuries to GZ are evidence that TM also initiated the physical confrontation.

            • O’Mara stood in court and apologized for lying on Travyon about some homeless man video yet your dumb ass is still spreading that false story. If Trayvon didn’t know the people he fought and if his circle of friends weren’t included in the FEW people he fought then his friends wouldn’t know to ask if him about fighting. In other words, he did NORMAL KID STUFF he was not out attacking strangers which is something Zimmerman did TWICE, once to the undercover cop and once to Martin!Trayvon Was on the phone the entire time INCLUDING WHEN ZIMMERMAN APPROACHED HIM. If he had any thought of attacking someone there is absolutely no reason at all for him to still be ON THE PHONE. The person who was surprise attacked and didn’t have time to put his phone away was Trayvon Martin. The only person with an arrest record and a HISTORY of violently confronting people including what your retarded ass saw LIVE ON TELEVISION is Zimmerman. You saw that ignorant jerk off screaming, pointing, standing in a FIGHTERS STANCE, challenging people, reaching for his gun and destroying people’s property. Yet your ignorant ass is trying to tell me a dead teenager was violent and deserved to be shot. You ignorant cracka ass cracka lol

            • O’mara apologized for the incorrect information about the video. He believed at first that TM’s friends were the ones beating the guy, he apologized for that misinformation. It was a real video , TM’s friends were in the background laughing as TM was narrating. They thought it was funny that this poor man was getting beaten by two other homeless men over a bicycle. They should have called the police instead of shooting a video and laughing at the poor man. My point in bringing up the video is that you clearly hear TM’s very very deep voice on it. People want to belive that TM had a soft child’s voice, and that he was the one screaming for his life when in FACT it had to be GZ who was screaming, he has a much softer voice than TM.

              Beating people up is not normal kid stuff, nor is burglary, or smoking dope. TM had been doing all of the above.

              GZ’s “altercation” with an undercover police officer was not the same thing. His friend had been hauled out of a club by some guys he didn’t recognize and thrown on the hood of a car, he merely walked up to one of the guys who he didn’t know was an undercover cop busting underaged drinkers and put his hand on his sholuder to ask what was going on. Hey maybe he was racially profiled by those cops? I hardly call that a random attack on a stranger.

              No TM was pissed off. GZ had looked at him as someone to be suspicious of. He knew that feeling because being the dope smoking burglar that he was, he was used to. He decided he was going to teach the “crazy azz cracka” a lession. And oh are you forgetting about the post on his social media where a friend is asking him about punching a bus driver?

              Tm had his phone on the entire time with earbuds in his ears, nothing that would have inteferred with him confronting GZ. From RAchel’s testimony we know that TM had already gone all the way back to the apt and returned to the T. There is no other reason for the altercation to have occurred where it did when TM had that much time to get back inside the apartment.

              I don’t know what you’re talking about about on live tv screaming pointing and standing in a fighters stance????

              Yes the dead teenager was a violent kid. Did he deserve to die? Probably not but he did cause his own death by making a choice to violently assualt someone who happened to have a gun.

            • Trayvon engaged in things IMMATURE CHILDREN ENGAGE IN. Children ought to be allowed to make mistakes and succumb to peer pressure but Zimmerman did not make a mistake with that undercover officer. He has been arrested several times sense then for his violent behavior and your own ugly white eyes saw his temper, rage, instigating, threatening and violatile nature yet all you’ve seen of the KID Martin is him laughing on a video and that’s a reason to celebrate his death? You are a creepy ass cracker indeed! A slimy low life racist who should by now have the good sense to realize that Zimmerman was never the saint he sat his fat ass in court and pretending to be and hoodwinked a lot of people. That was never more OBVIOUS than how he behaved towards Shelly and her father, even destroying their property and motioning for his gun. You saw with your own eyes that he has a violent temper and when he is angry he has no limits. He is NOT the kind of person that would meekly say he does not have a problem after he’s already cursed Trayvon out and jumped his fat ass out of his truck in pursuit. His is the type of person that would argue loudly with someone which is what everyone heard from John Good on down yet he lied and said the only he ever said was “I don’t have a problem.” Nothing he has done since the trial from speeding to attacking people to being arrested to signing up to fight somebody says he was ever the person that WOULD NOT attack Trayvon Martin. Everything he’s done sense he’s been acquitted says the jury got it wrong but your ugly racist ass can’t see that because all you know is if a person says a black person did something NO MATTER HOW FAR FETCHED, they must be telling the truth because unless a black teen has the sin records of Jesus Christ HE DESERVES TO DIE.

            • Trayvon was engaged in things that are against the law. Not all immature children are law breakers. TM was a thug looking for trouble and there is evidence on his social media that he was not only using drugs he was also selling and had possession of a gun. No it would have taken more than peer pressure to get him back on the right track as it seems from his social media contacts that he peers were like thinking. He should have been in jail for those burglaries instead of being suspended from school.

              How do you know that Zimmerman’s runin with the undercover cop was not a mistake? What FACTs do you have to back that up.

              Yes his behaviour since the trial has been irrational, and downright stupid, especially in his choice of women, which BTW knew how charging him with domestic violence would make him look, they wre out for revenge, and the charges have been dropped in both cases.

              What are you talking about me seeing GZ’s temper rage? I saw Shelly following him like puppy dog with her laptop filming him. Didn’t see him break anything except the laptop. All the rest of it was unsubstantuated allegations and the charges were dropped.

              Cursing TM out? He didn’t exchange words with TM until TM confronted him asking what was his f’ing problem. He was on the phone witn non emergency before that and yes he did say “those assholes always get away”, that is hardly cursing someone out when they don’t even hear it.

              Jumping out of the truck in persuit? Yeah right. According to the timeline and Rachel’s testimony, TM was already telling RAchel that he was right by his daddy’s gf’s apt BEFORE GZ even got out of the truck. He onlyh got out of the truck when the dispatcher asked which way TM went to see if he could tell, and he couldn’t because TM was long gone.

              Arguing loudly? The only person who said they heard loud arguing was Surdyka who said that there was a loud dominant deep voice which would have had to have been TM as we know for a fact that GZ does not have a deep voice, and TM did.

              Yes GZ has done some pretty stupid things since the trial. I never said TM deserved to die, just that he too made a stupid mistake by assaulting someone who was armed, one that cost him his life It’s sad he died, but he is not the maytyr y”all wan to make him out to be. He was a troubled teen who was into illegal and violent behaviour. Would he have continued down wthat path or would he have become the astranaut he wanted to be when he was a younger innocent teen, we will never know but law of averages does not look like his astronaut career path is the one he would have persued.

            • And Zimmerman’s story is so IGNORANT that your racist ass just made up facts to make it make sense. At NO TIME did Zimmerman say Trayvon ran in front of him and punched him in the nose. Your stupid ass just made that up. In fact, Zimmerman claims he fell backwards when Martin hit him, the next day when he went to the scene he said he went forward trying to get Trayvon off of him and he has no idea how he ended up on the ground. So a year later I need your silly ass not to try to make up a story that even Zimmerman never told because you want the facts the fit. If you cared about the facts fitting you never would have believed Zimmerman’s story in the first place! Real Americans don’t accept stories that make no sense whatsoever from child killers. We expect that every word of a story should make sense and be verifiable when you shoot a teen in the heart and go back to work the next day. You know damn well what Zimmerman said is stupid, that’s why you just added that Trayvon ran in front of him so he could punch him in the nose. You had to do that to try to explain how they ended up so far from the T so if you cared at all for black youth YOU WOULD HAVE DISMISSED ZIMMERMANS STORY FROM THE BEGINNING BECAUSE NONE OF THE VERSIONS HE PROVIDED MADE SENSE TO THE POINT THAT YOU JUST HAD TO MAKE UP A THIRD SCENARIO ON HIS BEHALF. You racist assholes get on my nerves, if Zimmerman had told the exact same story after killing a white teenage girl or boy you would ask that his ass be hanged if the physical evidence didn’t fit his story. You make exceptions in this case and don’t demand the truth BECAUSE THE VICTIM WAS BLACK.

            • TAsha Tasha Tasha, you are the one making up stories, and playing the race card while you are at it. If you watched the reinactment. Zimmerman states and demonstrates that when he passed the T, that TM called out to him saying asking “What is your problem” and that he took a couple of steps toward him at the T and responded “I don’t have a problema” and then turned around to head back to his truck and reached for his cell phone, and then he says “He was here” demonstrating how he was now right in front of him, and he said “You do now” and punched him in the noe. His story never changed. It makes perfect sense. I’m going by the FACTS, the EVIDENCE and you are going by the “social justice media outrage” wanting to believe that some poor little innocent black kid wad killed by some big bad WHITE (hispanic) guy just because he was balck. That makes youthe RACIST because you are believing what you want to believe based on race. Myself, I’m going by the facts and only the facts. It would make no difference to me if TM had been the “white hispanic guy” , and GZ had been black. I don’t base opinons on race , just on the facts. ,

            • Listen clown. I watched the reenactment. When Zimmerman put his fist up to his face as he mimicked where Trayvon was when he punched him, ZIMMERMAN WAS FACING THE TOWARDS THE DIRECTION WHERE TRAYVON CAME FROM. Zimmerman was not facing towards his truck. When he said “then he was hear” he is saying Travyon came up to the T and punched him. He said Trayvon called out to him and he said Travyon came from out of the bushes so he is saying Trayvon came back from the area where he lived to the T and confronted/attacked Zimmerman. That means that if Zimmerman’s story were true then Martin retreated BACKWARDS from the area he just walked from and Zimmerman went FORWARD towards Trayvon. That is impossible if Trayvon walked up to the T and punched Zimmerman as Zimmerman claimed. That means Zimmerman when have then went in the direction of his truck. Zimmerman never said he was “heading towards his truck” he said he reached down for his phone and “suddenly he was here” and he put his fist up to the left side of his face and mimicked being punch backwards and indeed his first story was that he fell backwards immediately and Martin jumped on him. When he got to the scene he mimicked swinging his arms AND MOVING FORWARD TOWARDS TRAYVON and says he was “trying to get him off of me” and he “somehow” fell down. In other words his story the next day was totally different from what he said the first time and then your racist ass just added another element of Trayvon getting in between Zimmerman and his truck and punching him. THAT IS NOT WHAT ZIMMERMAN SAID. And further Trayvon’s feet were facing the wrong way even for your ignorant scenario because Trayvon’s feet were facing towards Trayvon’s house, not Zimmerman’s car so Trayvon never fought Zimmerman back towards the direction of his house Trayvon was attacked and marched back towards the T which is why his feet are facing towards his house and WHY BAHADOOR SAW TWO PEOPLE MOVING FROM THE DIRECTION OF TRAYVON’S HOUSE GOING BACK TOWARDS TO THE T. Sure enough THAT’S EXACTLY THE DIRECTION TRAYVON’S FEET WERE FACING!

            • First of all you need to stop calling me a racist just becasse I believe the Hispanic guys story that the black guy assaulted him. I’m going by the evidence, not the need to believe that it was either the Hispanic or the black guy who initiated the attack. I could care less about the race of either. There is absolutly no evidence whatsoever that disproves GZ’s story of what happened.

              IN the reinactment he showed how he had stepped from the T to respond to TM, and how he turned around to go back to the top of the T to get back to his truck. He showed exactly where he was when TM got in front of him and exactly which way he stumbled backwards toward Good’s apt, which is consistent with the testimonies and statements of witnesses who heard the sounds moving FROM the T toward Good’s apt.

              GZ was wrong about bushes (it was dark and there were no bushes so he was going by the way it seemed at the time) but basicly he said that TM came from out of nowhere as he was walking back to the sidewalk at the top of the T , reaching for his cellphone and got IN FRONT of him and punched him. Watch the reanictment again, he never said that TM knocked him toward the top of the T. So yeah TM had been back by the apt where he was staying,. He ran up to the T to confront GZ, hollered at him, GZ did not engage him, so he ran in front of him and knocked him backwards. TM did NOT retreat back toward the apt, he was too busy beating the chit out of GZ. The story has been the same from the first night, going by total recall and then the reinactment he tells the same story. He did not change it. He was walking away from TM and whether or not he was going back to his truck is irrelivent (but he was headed that way) The point is that he was trying to avoid a confrontation and TM assaulted him.

              How TM’s feet were facing makes no difference. After a struggle that lasted at least 40 seconds and maybe even longer feet could be facing any which way , it doesn’t tell which way he would have been heading or which way he was coming from if he were not beating someone up.

              Bahadoor saw nothing of the sort. She testified to something totaly different to the statements she had made to the police and to the defense about what she saw. It was her SISTER who saw something. Her sister was not called to testify because her testimony would have been real bad for the prosecution. She at first stated that she saw 2 people chasing each other, but when interviewd later she stated that she heard more than saw, and that she heard footsteps running and saw A PERSON running past her window to the T, not 2 people chasing each other, A PERSON and that person would have to be TM based on Rachel’s testimony that TM told her he was “right by” the apt about 2 minutes before the altercation occurred 100 yards back up at the T. Nope BAhadoor perjured herself, her sister had stated that she was in the other room, and per her statements to the police, she only looked out the window AFTER the gunshot. She was incorporating her sister’s story with her own and changing it up. BAsicly she lied, she was the one who had signed the online petition to have GZ arrested, she wanted to make sure he got convicted so she out and out lied. She should have been prosecuted for perjury.

            • You remind me of a scientist named Lamark who studied genetics. He had a theory that he believed so strongly, he simply could not face the actual facts that confronted him. So… he painted spots on frogs to “prove” his theory. Forever he will be remembered as the best example of the worst scientist.

            • You remind of an ignorant white racist American male who really believes that a black teenaged skinny kid is stronger than you no matter the age or weight difference. Zimmerman made a story that whimpy white men would readily believe no matter how illogical because you naturally see yourselves as physically inferior to black males from penis size on down. Trayvon could have been 13 and you would still believe his story because you identify with feeling powerless to black males unless you have a gun.

            • Nice of you to bring race into the matter. Adding racial animosity is always a good way to help people think calmly and cautiously about intellectual deliberations.

            • Tasha, grinz is not an American–obvious from her spelling of certain words.
              To all you Zimmerman lovers/admirers/defenders: Zimmerman attacked an undercoverpolice officer (“battery of law enforcement officer” and “resisting an officer with violence” –doesn’t sound like a tap on the shoulder, hummm, grinz?) He was allowed to attend anger management classes, after much pleading and perhaps the influence of his (another state) magistrate father.
              Zimmerman’s cousin accused him of sexual abuse.
              When Zimmerman was working security at a party, he picked up and threw a woman, injuring her ankle.
              The woman in a former relationship ( ex-finance) with Zimmerman got a restraining order against him for violence. He got one against her (falsely, IMO), so they cancelled each other out.
              In 8 years, Zimmerman made 46 calls to Sanford police reporting “suspicious activity” involving black males.
              Zimmerman threatened Shellie and her father, injured her Dad’s nose, smashed Shellie’s iPad and cut it up with a pocket knife. He’d handed his weapon to his girl friend, who hid it.
              Zimmerman’s tattoos show known gang affiliation (left arm: theatrical masks–play now, pay later) that are associated with the Los Solidos, a gang that has spread through the Northeast, Florida, and Texas. No, he doesn’t have those tattoos because of an interest in the theater. He also has other tattoos, as shown on the police intake form.
              Trayvon, on the other hand, had no history of violence, burglary, or any police record whatsoever. Yes, he occasionally smoked some weed, but according to a U.S. government survey in 2012, nearly 40% of American high school seniors had used marijuana in the past year. There were minute traces in his autopsy, indicating that he had used sometime within the past 4 to 6 weeks or so. Had he been suspended from school? Yes: once for writing WTF on a locker, once for too many tardies/absences, and once for having an empty baggie with marjiuana residue. He did not slug a bus driver–that was probably from the same source that showed Game’s picture as being Trayvon. There is no question that Trayvon’s social media was hacked. The picture of a “Trayvon” giving the finger was another kid (younger) in another state with the same name. Yes, the real Trayvon had two tattoos: the name of his mom on his wrist and the name of his grandmother on his arm (see autopsy report).

            • Duh Freckles,
              Of course I’m an American. What are you , the spelling police? Any mispelled words are nothing more than typos. I haven’t been using spellcheck , nor spending a lot of time proof reading.

              1. the altercation with the undercover cop, he didn’t know it was a cop and he was trying to protect his friend because he didn’t know what was going on.
              2. The woman at the party apparently did not file any charges and I’m not sure that she was even the one who put that information out there.
              3. The ex-fiance, again charges were dropped, and you have no way of knowing that GZ’s counter charge was a lie.
              4. 48 calls to police in 8 years equals out to about 6 calls per year and they weren’t all about black males, he reported other people too and many of them were about other things like potholes, speeding cars, and people leaving their garage doors open.
              5. Re GZ’s theatrical mask tatoo. I did a search on Los Solidos and found they started in 1990 in Connecticut, and are mostly located there in other states nearby, like up north , I couldn’t find any mention of that particular gang in FL or TX but I suppose it’s possible. The theater mask images I saw were distorted ones with the name under them, and the gang members who have them have tatoos all over their bodies. You haven’t by any chance see a picture of GZ’s tatoo to see if it looks like the gang’s version of it have you? I didn’t think so.
              6. Trayvon did indeed have a history of violence and law breaking which he documented himself on his own cell phone (and social media accounts and no not that fake one with the other guy), The No-Limits-Nigga ones…. those were him. The reason he didn’t have a record was because the police dept had a policy that the schools would have police assigned to them to handle all the discibline including criminal activity tt to help young black men stay out of prison, and also to make the crime rate reports look better, Kids caught breaking the law got suspensions instead of jail time for their offenses/ Perhaps if TM had gone to jail for his crimes he’d still be alive today. Oh and you forgot to mention the stolen jewelry and burglary tool found in TM’s backpack. Yeah he was suspended 3 times in one school year, missed a whole lot of school, hardly the model student on track for a career as an astronaut or a rocket sceintist that was portrayed by the media. He was a kid in trouble, out of control , his mother could not control him so she sent him to be with his daddy’s ho while his daddy wasn’t even there until the weekend and then they went off somewhere and left the troubled teen home with a younger teen, and didn’t even miss him until some time after they got home. Speaking of TM’s dad, if you want to talk about gang signs, he had one on his neck that got changed to something else after he and TM’s mother started making all their rounds to make money off of their dead son.
              7. Oh and about slugging the bus driver. That post was on his no-limits-nigga account, (not the fake account in TN that people fell for for a couple of days) and even if the account had been hacked , the post was from before his death, there is no way to change the date on things that are already posted. Also there are indeed photos of TM flipping the bird that were on his cellphone. No TM wasn’t just part of the 40% of high school who had tried marajuana, he smoked it regularly and liked to get high on lean, and he was not onlh smoking MJ he was dealing it, and also trying to purchase a gun online. These are all things that were on his REAL social media accounts, things that were posted before his death.
              So yeah GZ had some issues, he was not and is not a model citizen, BUT the portrayal of him as the evil white guy out to kill himself a black kid, and the portrayal of TM as a little child who was a model student is totally inacurate.

              OH BTW, I did not do a spellcheck, so knock yourself out if you want to play spelling police.

            • grinz, just to let you know I will no longer respond to your posts. We are on entirely different sides of the case and it serves no purpose to try to change your mind with facts.

            • I know, it’s completely useless because everything and I mean EVERYTHING the lard ass has done since the acquittal has pointed to the fact that both the persona he put on as an hapless NHW guy as well as his claims that he is not a fighter and is unable to defend himself has been undermined. He is making supporters like Freckles and Garth look like special needs persons because his subsequent actions debunk everything they claim today. For instance these fools are saying that you are at an automatic and insurmountable disadvantage in a FIST FIGHT if your opponent is let’s say 5 inches taller than you. Yet Zimmerman is trying to participate in a celebrity boxing match and guess how tall DMX is? You guessed it, the same height as Trayvon Martin. So either Zimmerman is saying this fight is rigged from the get go because its IM POSSIBLE for him to defeat anyone taller than him or he’s saying Trayvons height advantage never made a difference in the first place even as his dumb ass supporters continue to say otherwise. Intellectually inferior lost causes, let them be.

            • Tasha, I think you meant to say Zimmerman “supporters like GRINZ and garth” not Zimmerman supporters “like Freckles and garth” since I’m very obviously not a Zimmerman supporter.

      • This didn’t happen anywhere near the doggone T! All of them heard it getting closer and the two people who live at the T who looked out when they first heard arguing didn’t see a thing! It wasn’t until it got closer and louder that they looked out again and then saw them. So TM never walked up to the T and did jack. If he had someone would have seen this from the beginning. The first one to see something was Bahadoor as they passed in front of her house, later the people at the T looked out and saw them. He’s been found not guilty. What the heck are you trying to. convince your ownself of, Gringz? This is stupid.

        • Wrong again!!! The witnesses who lived in the apartments backing up to the top of the T are the ones who heard voices TALKING right outside of their apts. They couldn’t make out what was being said, just that they heard voices. They didn’t think anything about it until later when they heard the screams. It was the witnesses to the south of the T who said that the screaming was moving closer to them. Badahor was the one who heard TM running back to the T. Actually she didn’t hear it, her sister did. And AGAIN, per her sisters statment she heard more than saw, she heard footsteps running and sas A PERSON running toward the t, (which had to be TML Badahor really didn’t hear anything until John came out of his apatartment to ask what was going on and say he was going to call the police. She was using her sister’s statement and putting her own spin on it. I’m not trying to PROVE anything to myself, I know GZ was found not guilty, so why are you still trying to convict him? Why is is so important for you to believe that the afro-perulvian was the aggressor and not the black guy? You are not looking at the facts/

          • Look slowpoke they all heard something! At least three of them looked outside and three of them saw something EVENTUALLY! The people who were supposed to see something immediately according to Zimmerman’s dumb story SAW NOTHING, NADA, NOT A DAMN THING. Furthermore they were not supposed to hear arguing period because GZ said nothing about this loud verbal exchange that everyone heard. But if his story was true when they FIRST HEARD noises they were supposed to look out and see this from the beginning yet they all heard something moving towards them and it came from near Bahadoor’s house which means from the beginning Zimmerman was lying his ass off therefore NOTHING ELSE IS TRUE!

            • People DID hear a conversation… people saying something. Even BAdhor’s (sp) sister said that affter she saw A PERSON running toward to the T she heard (from that direction) someone saying YO or NO, which is consistent with GZ’s story that TM said” YO, what’ your f’ing problem?” People who were supposed to see something? Uh people saw what they saw. John was the only person who was close enough to see who was on top BEFORE the shot. The people who heard them talking , did hear something BEFORE the altercation. Yes they eventually looked out and were too far away to see who was who , they didn’t see anything until AFTER the shot was fired. John saw TM on Top of GZ beating him, he heard GZ screaming for help, the other people heard and saw something but were not as sure as John who was the closest.

            • and they didn’t all hear noises coming toward them. All that said they heard noises coming toward them were those who were south of the top of the t, NONE of them said they heard noises coming from BAdahor’s house, not one of them except BAdahor herself whose sister was actually the ONLY one who ever said anything about noises or movement south to north and the sister said that she only heard footsteps running toward the T and saw A PERSON running toward the T and then LATER heard YO or NO…. coming from the T and this was before the shot. You have to look at ALL of the evidence, not just what Badahor made up based on her sister’s statement which she didn’t even get right. Badahor in her original statement said she heard something , sounded like kids playing, that she looked out the window when John came out .(weconds later) ….. etc…. she didn’t hear anything prior to the shooting other than what she thought were kids playing.

            • Look.dummy if you agree.that they all heard noises coming towards them THEN THIS DIDN’T START AT THE T WITH TM WALKING UP TO ZIMMERMAN.AND.PUNCHING HIM! He placed his own dumb self on the ground immediately and to this day there is NOTHING ON RECORD OF HIM DESCRIBING HOW HE CAME TO BE 35 to 40 FEET AWAY FROM.THE T. In his reenactment he walked 5 steps and stopped WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 30???? So this was a moving encounter and the more time it moved the less time this liar was on his back supposedly screaming and the less time TM had to bash is head 20 times, punch him in.the face 20 times, try to suffocate him, tell him to shut up, reach for his gun, get his arm pinched in the.gun struggle and get shot. IT WAS MOVING. And the movement didn’t start from the T BECAUSE NEITHER DID THAT LOUD ARGUMENT.

            • DUH in the reanactment he said he stumbled back and was fending TM off, he didn’t say how far he stumbled. Anyway the verbal confrontation started at the T, BAhador’s sister said so, the witnesses whose apts backed up to the top of the T said they heard voices RIGHT outside their apts BEFORE , and that LATER they heard the screaming, they didn’t say it was coming toward them…… NOBODY said anything was coming toward them FROM south of the T besides BAhador’s sister in her statement about the ONE PERSON she saw running toward the T, and she SAID that after this person ran toward the T she heard someone say YO or NO…… that would mean that the verbal confrontation started AT THE T…….GZ was disorientated, I sure he didn’t know how far he stumbled back toward John ‘s apt after being sucker punched. But if you compare all the witness testimonies and statements of those who did not testify, and really pay attention you will see that the confrontation HAD TO HAVE started at the T and moved south.,….

            • Duh in the reenactment he took a few steps and stopped WELL short of where the body was found so til this day he’s never explained how he was incapacitated and unable to retreat without killing Martin if he went FORWARD TOWARDS MARTIN WHO WOULD THEN HAVE TO BE BACKING UP. THAT MEANS ZIMMERMAN TURNED INTO THE AGGRESSOR AS MARTIN TRIED TO RETREAT DUMMY. NOT SELF DEFENSE! But his first story was Martin hit him and knocked him backwards THAT WAS A LIE so he gets to the scene and suddenly has himself going forward towards where he says Martin came from and that makes no sense if his car was in the opposite way. He basically admitted pursuing Martin dowb that sidewalk which is exactly what you just said. Therefore he was.NOT on his back for most of Laeur’s call. They were moving and fell in Good’s yard and were there for leak literally secs before he murdered the screaming teenager. If Zimmerman tried to defend himself as you just said and was upright WHY THE HELL WAS HE SCREAMING? No grown man with a gun does that EVER. Further, people were in their homes and not everyone looked out when they first heard noises but the two important people who did look outside directly at the T SAW NOTHING. So it doesn’t matter if they said where it came from it matters that they. confirmed where it didn’t start AND THAT’S AT THE T.

            • Instead of looking at all of the evidence and putting things together, you are cherry picking things to suit the narrative that you so desparately want to believe because you don’t want to believe the black kid was the agressor, you want to believe the poor little innocent kid who was an aspiring astranaut was a martyr. I on the other hand had no preference of what I wanted to believe, I initally believed the narrative that was put out there until I started examining the REAL evidence and found that it did not compute with what we were all led to believe by the media. If you recall in the reinactment. GZ stated that when TM confronted him with “Yo , what’s your problem mother f’er” that TM was standing on the sidewalk where the decteive was standing, and that he stepped into the sidewalk to respond by saying “I don’t have a problem” and turned around to go back and that’w when TM said “you do know and sucker punched him in the nose. TM would have had to get in front of GZ in order to do that, which explains why TM stumbled back toward John Good’s apt, he was trying to fend TM off, he didn’t remember how far he stumbled back, only that he fell and TM got on top of him, and he remembers John coming out and asking ans saying something about callign the police. Zimmerman was not upright with his gun drawn when he was screaming for help, TM was on top of him as witnessed by John at the same time taht Lauer was on the phone with 911. John went inside to call 911 but the shot happened before he got through to them, his call came in while Lauer was still on the phone, and was picked up a few seconds later. I don’t know who you are referring to as the 2 important people who saw nothing at the T …. Badahor and her sister? I wish the sister who ACTUALLY was the ONLY person to hear anything from south to north had testified because her testimony would have been evidence that TM had indeed backtracked to the T to confront GZ., and you are completely discounting Rachels’s testimony, saying several times that TM was right by his daddy’s gf’s apt, both before her call cut off and after she called back, and then about two minutes later after he had told her he was right by the apt, all of a sudden he was at the T ? NOBODY saw the beginning of the altercation, but people DID hear the sounds moving from the T toward John’s apt.

            • And to prove how much of a non- thinking a likely Negro hating bigot you are you don’t have the sense to realize that the moving nature of this encounter refutes Zimmerman’s story IN AND OF ITSELF. His first lie made it clear that he sought to place himself on his back as quickly as possible to give TM more time to be supposedly kicking his butt but when he goes back to the scene that all changes as he looks down and realizes he needs to explain why the body was not at the T or closer to his car so now he suddenly is defending himself and going towards Martin, still on his feet. What’s the likelihood that he forgot that he both argued loudly with Martin first and then RAN AND SCREAMED FOR HIS LIFE AS HE WAS TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM TM? Try Slim and None! Only bigots with no.common sense believe Zimmerman who we all heard pursuing this same boy that was on the phone the entire time, something Zimmerman didn’t know.

            • “Negro hating bigot”? Why because I believe the guy who is only part “Negro”? I formed my opinion on the case strictly by the EVIDENCE, the EYE WItness testimony, the time line, the 911 calls etc ……. I had no reason to WANT to believe GZ? I was just curious, and I found that every single bit of evidence either is consistent with GZ’s story or does not refute his story. I also found that no other scenario made any sense with the timeline , the map, Rachel’s testimony and GZ’s call. You are hung up that Rachel’s call stayed connected 2 minutes longer than GZ’s call to non emergency. That doesn’t mean they were talking that whole time. We know that she said she heard the head sit hit the wet grass (we don’t know what that would sound like” and that she was saying “Trayvon, Trayvon” …… and he didn’t answer her back but we don’t know how much longer her phone stayed connected after that. We do know that the altercation had already begun BEFORE she was disconnected and we don’t know how long it had been going on before she says she heard the headset hit the wet grass, or how long it stayed on afterwards, so it wasn’t a full 2 minutes. We know that when Lauers call came in the fight the altercation had already been going on for at least 30 seconds and it went on another 45 seconds while she was still talking, so no GZ didn’t have 2 whole minutes to account for, really less than a minute. And you are wrong we ALL didn’t hear GZ persuing TM. Yes when the dispatcher asked “Are you following him” he did say yes, but what he really meant is that he was trying to see which way he went after the dispatcher asked “which way is he running”. He had already lost sight of TM. Per Rachel’s testimony TM was already telling her that he had lost GZ and was right by his daddy’s GF’s apt BEFORE GZ EVEN GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK. TM could have just gone inside , but instead he RAN back to the T passing the apt of BAdahor and her sister on the way, and waiting for GZ to turn around to go back to his truck, he confronted him on the sidewalk a few feet away from the T, and GZ responded to him, turned his back to walk away and TM jumped in front of him and sucker punched him. He wasn’t suddenly going towards Martin, he was disoriented and backing away from him, stumbling, trying to fend TM off, and was only on his feet until he fell and TM got on top of him Everything you have posted is pure supposition of what MIGHT have happened if GZ was not telling the truth, but GZ’s story makes way more sense than any of the “what if’s” or “maybes” that any of you who so desparately want to believe the race baiting narrative (put out by that PR firm) want to believe. .

          • I think you mean white-Peruvian, gringz. Zimmerman’s dad is white, his mom is from Peru. IF it is true that Zimmerman’s GREAT- grandfather was black (not afro–not from Africa), then the most “black” Zimmerman could be would be 1/8.

            • Nope the white in white/hispanic comes from his Jewish father’s side, His mom is hispanic, her grandfather was black (of African descent) which makes her Afro-Peruvian, just like Obama is African-American despite the fact that he is half white. So GZ is half Afro-Peruvian and half Jewish, or if he went by the same rules that consider Obama to be African American and disregard his white side, that would make GZ Afro-Peruvian. On the 3 killers of the Australian, I have not seen pictures of the driver’s parents,. The point I am trying to make is the media keeps talking about the so called white kid like it proves that the shooter didn’t have any racist motives in the attack…..they dwell on that . ….

            • Zimmerman was 100% white in his own mind. The night of the murder he was white at the police station and when he started seeing Lindsay Fulgate he was white according to his medical records. Mealy mouthed bigoted whites clearly see him as a white man or the dummies wouldn’t send His white wife plead guilty to perjury so that means the State was right when.they said both of them were using conceal their KKK income so if Shellie agreed she was scheming and lying.then so was Porky. So not only does Porky have a previous arrest record including a murder arrest, but hes known to have tried to scam a court of law and has recently been shown to ignore posted speeds and he regularly breaks traffic laws. But let the mealy mouthed bigot tell you none of.that means hes a bad person or a thug but a teenager doing silly teen stuff mostly via text and social media is a the real thug. I’m here to remind you daily that you’re a bunch of dumb white bigots. That’s my mission. 🙂

            • tsk … tssssk … tssssssk People who insist on seeing the world in terms of black and white and throwing around epithets which inflame all civil discussion are standing directly in the way of making this a peaceful world. In this case we have Trayvon supporters accusing everyone who believes Zimmerman could have been innocent of being idiots and secret racists. I don’t believe this board was originally established to be a forum for hate and narrow minded-ness. I still believe that we can aspire something better than this. What I see is a classic feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys or a Super Bowl championship game where people have chosen a team to root for, and in turn make everyone else into a demon. If we are going to have a discussion of racial prejudice in America, we should have it. But I don’t believe we need to look at this one case only in terms of racism. Can we possibly put aside the hatred long enough to just be fair?

            • Only an ugly white bigot like the hundreds I’ve encountered throughout this case would still be on a website months later still defending a black child killer and convicting the dead kid of his own death. I’m calling you out on what you’re doing. IF I’m wrong shut your silly butt up and find a NOBLE cause to support.

            • I have refrained from posting anything on this board in the recent past. I was inspired to re-enter the conversation because of some renewed activity posted by others. I’m personally enjoying that I can still rise above the angry name calling you exhibit in your last post. Don’t expect me to join you in the human degradation you obviously revel in.

            • If you weren’t supporting a known. child murderer who just got arrested for threatening his estranged in laws with a gun today, then I wouldn’t call you ignorant but alas, you’re ignorant. IT’S not personal, the position you’ve taken makes it far too easy. Carry on blissfully in Idiotville, I’ll stop interrupting your fun. 🙂

            • Well, at least you’re cheerful about your narrow-mindedness. For now, we can all at least be grateful for that. It’s a step in the direction of civility. Very good!

            • The media is at it again. George was still living in the house. Arrangements for Shellie to get her stuff out of the house were that she would get them on Saturday. Apparently she didn’t get everything out of the house on Saturday, and showed up today with her father. They got into an argument, No gun was brandished, nobody was injured, Neither Shellie nor her father pressed charges. It’s just one of those ugly divorces, that if it were someone who is not in the limelight would not make the news.

            • Nope, I heard the drama queen. You know the way the media was covering it, I got the impression that she was staying at her dad’s house and that George came over there stalking her, and that the dad tried to protect her etc, but it turns out that Shellie was the one who showed up unannounced. It seems GZ had his GF with him. She probably went off on him . If there was an altercation of any kind I imagine it was no more than a pushing match, and Shellie talking about GZ having his hand on his gun….uh he was in his truck…. he wasn’t even in the house. If there was anything to it they would have filed charges. She’s on probation, probably doesn’t need to commit perjury again.

            • We’ve been through this before about this business of “causing fear”. You are not reading the law corectly. Anyway, I heard emotion in her voice, which is normal in a nasty divorce, especially one that is public (that she made it a point to make public) Fear? George’s body guards were there, surely if there were any kind of REAL altercation they would have interceeded. He was outside in the truck, she was inside the house. Apparently she followed him outside through the garage because she said he was “trying to close the garage door on her” and then went back inside. She was in no danger and she knew it, I think she was more upset about the “other woman” and knew that a call to 911 would make the national news and mak him look bad and wanted to get revenge.

            • The media correctly reported that Zimmerman was a white hick that killed a black kid. Zimmerman listed himself as white on the police report. Anyway when will this hick keep his lard thug ass out of the jailhouse? Anyone know?

            • Duh, Zimmerman didn’t fill out the police report, the police did, that’s why the race hustlers thought he was white and why they started this whole thing. His last name was Zimmerman, the police listed him as white, they already had the ball rolling on their race baiting PR campaign before they found out he was Hispanic, hence they coined “WHITE hispanic”.

            • That hick thug told them he’s white just like he told his doctor’s office he’s white. I guess his doctor’s office made up some stuff too? Hey hicks sick together, at least you’re following the code lol

            • LOL no you didn’t, you just responded to me on another thread….. Anyway , I came here, doing a search during the trial. I only respond when I get an email notification that someone has responded to a thread that I have posted on……..

            • Unfounded? LOL anyone who disagrees with you, their comments are unfounded no matter how many points and counterpoints are made and how much sense they make…… I know you probably just want a bunch of people on here who agree with your POV, but that wouldn’t be a real discussion would it?

            • Sounds like your mission is to hate on white people. You make generalizations about an entire race, but yet those of us who are in this discussion have done no such thing, we are going by the actual evidence, not the race of either, I’ve told you before that I believed the media false narrative until I started studying the evidence. You just don’t want to do that you want to make the evidence fit the racist narrative that was put out there by Al, Jesse, and the media.

      • You obviously were not listening to the trial, where it was attested to by Zimmerman’s self defense teacher that George had absolutely no skill in fighting. He was described as horribly out of shape, and incapable of throwing a decent right cross. My 10 year old son also took a year of martial arts training. He wouldn’t have stood a chance against Trayvon either. I’m convinced that had Zimmerman not had a gun, he probably would have survived. However, when you’re getting the shit beat out of you, you might not be able to make the decision not to reach for your gun if you have one. He might very well have thought he would have been killed. As Jeantel said…. “Trayvon was just going to whoop his ass.” implying that he probably wouldn’t have killed him. Once you start giving someone a serious ass whooping, you have to consider that your victim might get angry and scared enough to kill you if he has a gun. I personally have never beaten anyone, and consider such behavior to be outrageous and criminal unless you simply have no other option and are fighting for your life. Trayvon most certainly was not fighting for his life.

        • I’m sure GZ wouldn’t have been a bouncer, attacked a cop, beat up an ex, taken MMA classes, walked around with a gun and applied to be a cop if he was the sissified wimp he pretended to be at trial. In other news I’m saddened by the parade of non-black males who readily accept someone who portrayed himself as a puffy soft punk as their hero. Go figure.

          • I’m a non black man, who does not think of Zimmerman as a hero. To me, he is a well-meaning, but somewhat intimidated every man – not brave, not heroic, not strong or even bold – but a man who tried to do his best realizing that he would never be a tough guy, but a man who fought his own fear to at least meet the world on its own terms. There are times, when even the meek among us must at least try to overcome our fears. In this case, he was not a powerful enough man to subdue violence, but instead only managed to return a violent act with an even more violent response. We must all try to be strong enough to subdue violence and not become entangled in it. As a fairly meek man myself, I must try to do this in my job as a county transportation officer. I must try to respond to anger with logic and understanding, and threats of violence with calm. It took me years to learn that trick, but sadly Zimmerman was not able.

          • Actually I am a non-black female….. Nobody thinks George is a hero. I see him as a victim of a voilent crime, as someone who was (as much as he would have liked to have been) NOT capable of defending himself in a street fight, and had to resort to the only thing he could do to stop TM from beating him. He was naive, didn’t know it was just an “ass whipping” and that he was supposed to know that TM probably wasn’t going to kill him, that he just wanted to make him bleed …. TM continued to beat him after he was screaming for help, that means TM had “won” the ass whipping, it should have been over… TM should have stoppedl, he didn’t even stop after John came out and told him he was going to call the police. It’s sad that GZ wasn’t more adept at fighting, although I dont’ know that it would have helped since he was sucker punched and then pinned down. Even TM said he lost a round in one of his fights because the other guy got on top of him and pinned him down and he couldn’t fight back, so TM knew that GZ would not be able to fight back once he had MOUNTED him and continued beating him after GZ had been screaming for help for at least 40 seconds and AFTER someone had told him he was going to call the police. . But no GZ is not a hero, just a sad victum, not only of a violent attack but of racial hatred being directed at him and his family for a year and a half so far. That is what upsets me about this whole thing is how it was made into a racial incident, when it was 2 minorities who were involved, one assaulted the other one, and the one who committed the assult unfortunately is dead. Trayvon Martin has been made into a martyr, and he was not, he started a fight and he picked a fight with someone who was armed. His friend on social media had been warning him that if he didn’t stop fighting all the time that someday that would happen and she was right. GZ made a mistake by commiting felony assault and it cost him his life, that certainly does not make him a marytr like MLK.

            • Trayvon did not commence a violent crime upon anyone while still on the phone and without getting Zimmerman’s DNA. Therefore the only. victim of a violent crime was Trayvon Martin. You’re delusional and a bigot blinded by what the media has told you. black males are. So ignorant and sad.

            • The lack of DNA evidence proves NOTHING. It has been established, even the prosecution did not deny that TM beat up GZ, there is plenty of evidence, and an eye witness, DNA would further substattiate it but there is enough evidence w/o it. You are the bigot who has been blinded by the media coverage of this incident, a local clear cut case of self defense portrayed by a PR FIRM , who fed the story to the so called Main Stream Media as a poor little black child, innocent cherbic little kid , who was on his way back with candy for his “little brother”, who was stalked and chased down simply because a WHITE hispanic wanabe cop wanted to kill himself a black kid for no other reason than he was black narrative. You talk about the way the media portrays black males, they make it a point to not mention race when they report crimes committed by black males, they make it a point that stories don’t make the national news. The only reason the story about the Australian white guy gunned down for fun by 2 black guys (with a bi-racial guy who the media keeps referring to as white) driving the car, is because it was an international incident. The guy who pulled the trigger had been making racist comments on social media. They didn’t just single out the NEXT person they saw, they singled out the next WHITE person they saw to kill just for fun. There have been several cases of black on white violent crimes where the assalient has said “This is for Trayvon”. Unfortunately it is true that young black males are responsible for disproportinate amount of violent crime. That’s sad for those who don’t, but it explains why people do profile. If I see some black teens who I don’t recognize, yeah I’m going to be nervous because of what is happening in this country, because black kids are taught to hate whites, to blame whites for everything that is wrong in their lives and the race baiters and the media are responsible for a lot of it, and this case just made it worse. I really had hopes that although I didn’t vote for him (so I guess that makes me a racist) that with a “post racial” first black president, that he could help to begin building a bridge toward racial understanding and bring us together like he promised, but instead he is dividing us even further, his weighing into this case with “If I had a son , he’d look like Trayvon”< and then again after the verdict "I could have been Trayvon 35 years ago", it is furthering the divide and causing more animosity between the races.

            • If we are to believe that gringz is a racist just because he not only believes that Zimmerman is innocent but also because he did not vote for Obama, then you would have trouble explaining my motive for believing Zimmerman was innocent. I not only voted for Obama, but worked vigorously for his campaign in 2008, logging many hours walking the street, knocking on doors, and donating money when I could too. (I didn’t actively campaign for him in 2012 because I was absolutely convinced he would win without another superhuman effort on my part). If you are fair, you must respect the possibility that a person could make up his or her mind on the basis of facts, and you should not suppose that one is a racist because he does not believe that Zimmerman could have acted in self defense. Calling everyone who believes that Zimmerman was not guilty a racist, is in itself a racist act.

            • George Zimmerman constructed his story for racists like himself. He profiled a young black kid as a burglar, totally lied about everything Martin did and portrayed him as a murder minded thug who would attack someone out of the blue, not to pick a fight but to murder him just yards from where he was staying, with his barehands, with only candy in.his possession and while still on the phone. He then said he was white both to his doctor and to police who called him white…on the police report, the media releases the report he’s called white which is what he’s called himself, changes his race to Hispanic for his own. convenience and ignorant white people have been RACIALLY involved in this case ever sense. You are the only.IDIOTS who reached into your pockets and even after a not guilty verdict still support who? A black child killer. That is all he is. And a black child killer that.chased the black child and a black. child killer who to this day never found a single expert. willing to say the black child didn’t scream at some point. So I’m pointing.out your racism BECAUSE YOU ARE RACIST and more than a little immoral to openly support a grown man that chased a teen he profiled and work with his police friends to convict him of his own death. Bigots.

            • If people who believe Trayvon was not aggressive and violent are all racists, then you can count many black police officers that I work with and personally know as racists too.

            • Look you special needs student, you can believe Trayvon was aggressive, violent and a trained assassin for all that I care it’s the fact that you don’t believe his white killer who has a history of violence including the shooting of an unarmed teen and an arrest record and restraining order to boot TO BE VIOLENT AND THUGGISH AT ALL. It is your ignorant ass double standard BASED SOLELY ON RACE that helps me drag your dumb butt out of the closet and expose you as the ignorant bigot you are lol

            • Why do you feel the need to put LOL at the end of your angry, out of control rant? If you want to present yourself as a vulgar, name calling actor, – then go ahead. You won’t get me to stoop to your level no matter what you call me. I patiently waiting for a calm, reasoned and civil conversation from you and some others. By the way, once a month I go to court to defend my the tickets I write. The understood rule is that if I should lose my cool, or verbalize anger, I would automatically prejudice a judge against me. From your last rant, I believe you’ve prejudiced any reasonable thinker against you. I think it’s sad, but I have not yet given up hope that you can regain your composure and re-enter a discussion of the matter at hand.

            • gringz, further up on another thread you showed that you did not understand the timeline. The (approx.) 2 minutes and 30 seconds — where GZ’s whereabouts and doings are unknown — is measured from the end of the NEN call to when Jenna Lauer’s call connected to 911. Have a look at the call times yourself and do the math.
              In those 2+ minutes GZ could have travelled quite a distance at a normal, even leisurely walking pace. There is no way to know where GZ went or what he was doing during those 2+ minutes, but it’s certain that he wasn’t standing in the dark and the rain or just looking for a house number.

            • I’m not going by Lauer’s call, I’m going by when Rachel’s call disconnected, 2 minutes and 3 seconds after GZ’s nen call ended. We know that when her call disconnected the altercation was already underway , we don’t know for how long, and we don’t know how long the phone stayed connected after she said that she heard “the wet ground”, or how much time elapsed after she said she heard TM verbally confront GZ and when she says she heard the headset hit the ground. So it wasn’t a full 2 minutes and 30 seconds that is unaccounted for, probably about a minute and a half or even less. GZ may have been looking around down the street to make sure TM wasn’t still around and may have been walking slowly back with his flashlight looking around at the top of the T, but there is no way he had time to run all the way down the street around the buildings to the other end of the sidewalk and chase TM back to the T. By the time Lauer’s call connected the altercation had already moved from the T down to John’s apt.

            • No way…. That would mean that he would have had to run over 170 yards after he hung up from the nen call. Why would he be running if he didn’t even know where TM was and had lost him for over 2 minutes? He didn’t have time to walk that far.

            • Nobody says he stopped walking, not even GZ says he stopped walking. He walked to the end of the sidewalk at the top of the T and finished his conversation there, got the address and started walking back, …… I’m going by the “unnacounted” time after he hung up from them and before RJ’s connection with TM cut off…… It is NOT a full 2 minutes because the confrontation had already occurred BEFORE her connection ended and we don’t know how long it had been going on when it did disconnect.

  18. Ah, gringz. You are wrong about Zimmerman, and you are wrong about the case re the Australian. One guy is black, one guy is bi-racial, and the driver–whether you like it or not–is WHITE. A picture of his parents (he is not adopted) shows a WHITE man and a WHITE woman.

    • Where did you see this picture of the “white” guy’s parents. I’ve surfed around all over the internet, the only parents I’ve seen are Edward’s father, and Luna’s white mother, haven’t seen anything about Jones, other than his mug shot.

      • You’re even looking at that case thru a racial lens and you will chose how you feel about the case based upon the race of those involved you silly bigot. Non-bigots of ALL races have a problem with hearing what clearly sounds like a young.boy saying.” I’m begging yoouu…get off…” at the beginning of a 911’tape when his mentally retarded murderer only. claims to have said “hep me” 20 times which is refuted by evidence. Non-bigots the world over understands that is NEVER OKAY to chase a teen who is alone and in the dark and rain.EVER except if its a black teen then it’s okay and if he fights you back and screams for help as.100 out of 100 kids are told to do then it’s okay to kill him because he’s just a black kid and black kids are allowed to be chased by attackers. They must lead. them to their backdoor and go in quietly and wait for the bad guy to enter the residence. Every decision the black kid makes must be perfect and the non black adult that. sets the. chain in motion has NO RESPONSIBILITY. He can even change his story several times, lie about his knowledge of the law, lie on his own recorded voice, lie about his bail money, sit on Hannity months after the fact and with the benefit of phone records and 911 calls, still say he encountered Martin 30’seconds after his call with.dispatch ended when by that time everyone knew it was.2 minutes. No, the non black doesn’t have to get shit right but the black kid should have been perfect. Got it. YOU ARE BIGOTS. LOL. And the worst of all bigots, the stupid as hell bigot.

        • A fact for gringz; EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT (84%) of murdered WHITES are murdered by other WHITES. I know this doesn’t fit with your agenda, but that is a FACT.

          • Yes, it is a fact that about 85% of all white people are killed other whites and 95% of all black people are killed by other blacks. However, if you are the rare person who is killed by another race, you end up just as dead. Furthermore, we should not bring that statistic into this particular case, because it has no bearing. The family of Trayvon can take little comfort in knowing that their son was killed by a white man instead of the statistical probability that he would most likely have been killed by a black man.

          • Of course more whites kill each other and more blacks kill each other…… What is it about 96% of blacks who are murdered by blacks, it’s 90 something…….You also have to take into consideration that blacks make up only 12% of the population and commit a disproportinate amout of violent crimes , including murder. The VAST majority of violent crimes committed by blacks are committed by male “children” TM’s age and even younger. So if half the black population is male, that would , and half of that is young men.or teens , that is only 3% of the entire population committing an exrtremly large percentage of all crime.

            Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.

            Blacks are three times more likely to use a hand gun, and twice more likely to use a knife.

            Blacks are 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against whites then vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit a robbery.

            Forty-five percent of black crime is against whites, 43 against other blacks, and 10 percent against Hispanic.

            These are FACTS, not part of an agenda….. The black community and leadership , instead of focusing on past wrongs, should be working w/i their communities to make sure that children stay in school,and off the streets, they should motivate them to make something of their lives.

        • So I take it you haven’t seen any pictures of the “white” kids parents after all……I didn’t think so. My point in bringing that case up is the way the media treats race, if the alledged victtim is black , the alledged assaliant therefore must have committed a race crime even where there is no evidence whatsoever to support that, but on the other hand like in the Christopher Lane case where you have EVIDENCE that at least one of the three perps hated white people, it can’t be a hate crime because , hey one of the kids was supposedly white, but yet you call ME a BIGOT because I believe the story of the wrong minority. I’m not even going to respond to the rest of your rant where you are recapping all of the other theories that make no sense, that do not work with the timeline, nor the evidence, nor the witness statements. I’ve given you reasons why they don’t, documented reasons of how it couldn’t have happened the way you want to believe it did, and you just keep repeating your lame theories over and over w/o rebutting my points, and that is because you CAN”T, you are only going by emotion and race, wanting to believe the poor little innocent black baby boy was a saint and that he did not assault GZ.

          • Sorry, the ‘reply’ button was missing at the end of your response to my post about timelines… Okay, I see where you’re coming from with your calculations. The 2:30 minutes is from the NEN call to just after the screams start. You reached a close estimate of when the initial confrontation may have occurred using RJs call, but it’s easier to work backwards from the Lauer call, because we know it took 11 + approx. 30 seconds from the time she picked up her phone to the time she connected with the 911 operator. The only guessing involved is with the time it took her to notice the loud voices and get to her phone. So, yes, from the end of the NEN to the start of the confrontation there is an unaccounted for minute and a half. We also don’t know what GZ was doing after his door chimes are heard on the NEN (besides talking on the phone). It sounds like he’s running to the point where the operator tells GZ “we don’t need you to do that [follow]”. How far did he get while he was still connected to NEN? Did he stop and catch his breath after the sprint or did he continue walking slowly or both? If so, how far did he get and which direction did he go? We don’t know objectively. By several of GZ’s own accounts, he made it to the west side of the cut-through sidewalk at RVC before disconnecting with NEN. From that point, with 1:30 minutes to get there, he could have taken several routes to get to where we know for sure he ended up — behind John Good’s porch/patio. What’s doubtful is that he hung about at the north intersection of the T for over a minute looking for an address, waiting for police or whatever. And as I said, we know he eventually ended up 40 or so feet south of the T. This also happens to be where the body and the majority of the physical evidence was found, including the tactical flashlight GZ was tapping while on the phone to NEN and TM’s cell phone. Which brings me back to the end of RJs call to TM. It overlapped Ms Lauer’s ear-witnessing of the verbal confrontation prior to her connecting to 911. Just looking at the bare bones of RJ’s account and comparing it to what Ms Lauer heard and the evidence at the scene, the cell phone fell (a ‘bump’ and voices became more distant-sounding to RJ) after the first verbal exchange between TM and GZ. In other words, the phone hit the ground when and where the confrontation became physical — behind John Good’s home. There are too many logistical problems with the altercation having begun at the T as described by GZ — namely, a brief exchange of words, a sucker punch and an immediate MMA-style attack cannot explain the preponderance of physical evidence found 40 feet to the south. Even GZ himself is at a loss in his re-enactment video to explain how the fight could have migrated that far. ‘Stumbling’ just doesn’t do explain this. Most likely the fight began and ended within in 5 or 10 feet of where the teen’s body was found. This means that GZ would have had to venture into the dog path area after he hung up with NEN. And he had more than enough time to do so.

            • I go by the time Rachel’s phone cut off because we know the confrontation was already underway BEFORE it cut off, we just don’t know how long it had been going on before then, nor how long it had been going on before Lauer heard anything, or realized it wasn’t just kids playing. I believe that GZ was probably at the T (right after they told him “we don’t need you to do that”, when he said “He ran”. I believe he was at the T tapping on the flashlight trying to make it work , and didn’t see TM so he assumed that he was gone, and I believe that TM was way down at the other end of the sidewalk 100 yards away like Rachel said he was “right by his daddy’s gf’s apt”. and that GZ couldn’t see him but TM could see GZ, that’s when he told RJ “Oh sh1t. he’s following me again” and decided to run back to the other end of the sidewalk, to the T when he saw GZ walking west, he knew where his truck was parked and that he’d be coming back the same way. According to RJ’s testimony TM was already telling her that he had lost GZ and was right by the apt before her phone cut off , Her phone cut off ONE second before before you hear the door close on GZ’s truck, which means that TM was already back by the apt before GZ even got out of the car. Rachel reconnects about 10 seconds after the dispatcher tells GZ “we don’t need you to do that”,…. TM is still telling her he is right by the apt…. then he says “oh sh1t” . Then (according to her statement to the state atty_ she says about 2 minutes after that TM is breathing hard, (and talking low (whispering_ and saying the guy was getting closer and then hears the confrontation. So why was TM back at the T, or even by your theory by John’s apt? There would have been no reason for him to head back that way unless he was doubling back. Now on the 40 feet thing, that’s not really that far. It’s less than 3 car lengths. I can see someone stumbling around backing up trying to fend someone off for that distance before tripping and falling. 40 feet would only be about 20 steps . GZ’s keys with the little flashlight were found at the top of the T where he says TM punched him. The light was still on when the police arrived. TM was wearing a headset, his phone was in his pocket, and labeled as an item found in his pocket, so the phone never fell.
              Now as for GZ having plenty of time to take several different routes, other than the one he said he took. The only other routes would have been down the sidewalk toward the apt wher TM was staying, AFTER he had lost him for over 2 minutes and again why would he encounter TM near Johns 70 yards away from where RJ puts him before GZ even got out of his truck Makes no sense that he would do that after makign arrangements to meet the officer. The only other route would be to go all the way around the street and go around the end of the apts and then come all the way back to John’s, he’d have to be running pretty fast to have time to do all of that, That would be over 170 yards…. I actually marked off 100 yards to get an idea of how long it would have taken TM to get from the T , where GZ had lost sight of him , to the apt, and it took me a minute and a half to walk it, about 45 seconds to run it. Add 70 plus yards to that and it would be well over 2 minutes walking at a steady pace. Also keep in mind that the witnesses whose apts backed up to the top of the T are the ones who heard what is believed to be the verbal confrontation, and the witnesses below the T are the ones who say that the sounds got closer…. (except for badahor who really dedin’t hear anything except for what she thought were kids playing , until about the time John came out of his apt according to her ORIGINAL statement ) I believe that GZ did exactly what he said he did walked to the end of the sidewalk to the street, took a few seconds to get the apt number, probably looked down the street toward the exit to see if he could spot TM, and walked slowly back toward the T, looking around with that little flashlight trying to make sure TM wasn’t around. . He wasn’t in a big hurry because he knew the officer was going to call him when he got there. .

            • Oh and I forgot t mention the interview (interrogation) where Serino and that lady cop (I forget her name) were trying to see if they could get GZ to change his story by trying to trip him up…I remember them talking about the timeline and how long it took him to walk back to the T, and I heard someone in the background (must have been the other detective who was with them at the reenactment) say he timed it at 80 seconds. Now I don’t know if that was just back from the street to the T, or from the T and then back again. Even if it was the back and forth that would still be 40 seconds one way ( or if he only timed it back from the street to the t that’s almost a minute and a half right there), add a few seconds to the 40 seconds for GZ to get the address for the officer and that’s close to a minute. So it’s not that far off….from the time that Rachel’s phone cut off.

  19. gringz,
    After GZ’s recent arrest, I’m starting to see a pattern of him accusing his fiance, wife and most recent partner of being the aggressor. It’s not them, it’s him who has the problem. It’s pretty clear that he’s an abuser and a liar. It also makes it even more likely that GZ was the aggressor in the dispute that led to the shooting of TM. As I said before, I doubt either GZ or TM were very far from JGood’s backyard after the NEN call ended. There was no ‘ambush’. That just doesn’t make sense. Nor does TM seeing the twinkle of a tiny flashlight from 70 feet away and attributing it to the man in the truck. GZ probably wandered west looking for the ‘kid’ and may in fact have been returning to his truck when something changed his mind at the top of the T. (As evidenced by last minute request to the NEN operator to have police call him when they arrived rather than meet him at the mailboxes.) I believe he heard the TM speaking on his cell phone, but didn’t spot him immediately. TM, who was probably close to Ms Lauer’s yard, thought he was safe and was finishing his phone conversation with RJ before going home. TM may have seen GZ first — the tiny flash of his keyring flashlight and a hint of GZs orange jacket spotted earlier in the truck from a more believable, shorter distance. The two would have been fairly close (20 to 30 feet apart) in the pitch black. TM may have figured that running would draw more attention, so he told RJ he would “walk fast” (south) toward BG’s house. The boy’s movement may have caught GZs eye regardless, and he jogged into the T area to follow. Just a few car lengths could be covered in seconds, even by a non-athlete GZ could have dropped his keyring in his haste. GZ’s intention was to collar the boy at that point. He may have gotten close enough to grab the boy’s sweatshirt. Instead of running away, the boy stood his ground. There was a verbal confrontation near JGood’s yard as RJ described. “What are you following me for?” “What are you doing around here?” GZ saying he’d reached for his cell phone is at this point is interesting considering his having threatened SZ this fall by reaching into his unbuttoned shirt (where his holster might have been) and adopting a shooter stance. This was caught on video. When he finally encountered TM, did GZ reach for his cell phone or was he really letting the kid know he was armed? Could he have pulled the gun out? GZ’s various accounts of what happened are even more suspect after his recent arrest. It’s clear he knows how to say whatever is most likely to get the blame off him and onto his victim, or at the very least create reasonable doubt. After the TM shooting, GZ told his version of events in a way that downplayed and hid his having followed the boy (stalked) in his car. This is critical to TM’s mindset. The boy wasn’t picking a fight. He was fighting for his life. We now know that GZ’s relationship with SZ was strained. So the weekly shopping trip was a lie under oath. His mind set at the time of his encounter with TM wasn’t the calm NW guy just happening to see a strange kid. GZ had probably argued with SZ on the phone before he got in his car. He would have been frustrated, stressed and perhaps quick to anger. Recent events and the pattern indicated by them also call into question other parts of GZs statements. Not to mention the obvious lies. He lied about knowing self-defence and stand your ground law on Hannity. And did you know that GZ’s version of the verbal encounter “You got a problem?” “No” “You do now,” is practically a verbatim quote from a Rodney Dangerfield movie, “Back to School”. It’s a lie. Also probably ripped from a movie or TV show is “you’re gonna die tonight m-f-ker.” The struggle for the gun began from the first punch. But GZ lied to cover this up, among other things. So many lies to put the blame on the victim and take the blame off himself.

    • In light of the recent incidents in GZ’s life, I see a different pattern. I see a man who knows he has little ability to enter into a fair fight, and so enters into conflicts with women whom he feels he can exert power over. He feel impotent in physical altercations with men and enters into these frays with caution (knowing he has a gun if things get out of hand). I believe his intention was to bring someone to justice without risking his own skin. When he tangled with Mr. Martin he found a man who was all too ready to fight. At that moment GZ realized that he was at a disadvantage and going to get beaten to a pulp. As Trayvon continued to deliver blows to Zimmerman, George pulled the gun and evened the score with the man who was showing him how weak he was. The danger of guns is that they can be pulled when one opponent finds himself loosing badly. Nothing new convinces me that Trayvon would have entered into a fist fight with a man he knew to be armed and this is why I believe Zimmerman’s gun was still in his belt when they encountered each other. Trayvon thought it was going to be a fair fist fight and when he got the better of Zimmerman, Zimmerman panicked and pulled his ace in the hole.

      • I can’t believe there is even one individual with a brain who still believes that Trayvon delivered multiple blows to Zimmerman. His own attorney conceded during the trial that it’s possible Zimmerman exaggerated the extent of the attack. Obviously we can look at Zimmerman’s face 45 minutes after the encounter and see he was never beaten up. So if Zimmerman exaggerated the extent of the encounter and wasnt hit 20 times in the face and had his head bashed on concrete.just as many times then why would he be screaming like a girl for 45 seconds straight? He wouldn’t be. We saw him take a fighters stance towards his father in law and as someone who trained in MMA for a year before he killed Trayvon, he didn’t learn that stance AFTER the trial. My point is, cut the bullshit, Zimmerman was a violent thug before he murdered Trayvon and he’s continued to be one after the fact as well.

        • The incidents with these two women (even if one believes them) do not change the evidence, the eye witness testimony etc. I still believe John when he said that he witnessed TM reigning down blows MMA style while he was on top of GZ. Even if GZ exxagerated the number of blows, he was still in fear for his life.

          • Did anyone really expect you dummies to get on here and say you were wrong? In other news I’m more anti half white thug supporters than ever. Being half white with the right last name can absolve you the thug label even after attacking a cop killing a kid, threatening old people, women and children. I’m convinced now that most Zimmerman supporters are regular law breakers themselves.

            • Whatever happened between GZ and those two women does not change the FACTS in this case, it does not change the eye witness reports , nor the evidence, nor the timeline. The timeline is the main thing….. TM was the instigator, he assaulted GZ, GZ shot in self defense period. There is no other explanation.

        • Are you saying that Trayvon wasn’t straddling Mr. Zimmerman at the the time he was shot? The medical testimony and the only eye witness says that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. That evidence is not being doubted by anyone in the jury, or even by the State Attorney. If Mr Martin wasn’t delivering blows to Mr. Zimmerman, what was he doing straddling him? Playing Parcheesi? I think, you are living in a fantasy world.

          • Jayne Surdyka, who was actually looking outside when the gun went off, unlike Good who says he was no longer watching, confirmed that GZ was on top when the gun went off.

            The shell casing for that gun flies backwards…and to right when it’s fired. It’s EXACTLY where it should be since we know Zimmerman was on top. If Trayvon was on top then Zimmerman’s shell casing inexplicably flew forwatd and to the left. That’s impossible because that’s not how the recoil travels and also because if Trayvon was leaning over the top of Zimmerman when the gun went off, the shell casing would have hit Trayvon. So what Jayne Surdyka saw is 100% consistent with where the shell casing ended up. Trayvon was murdered. The state had no interest in proving that, even GZ supporters said it seemed the state was working for the Defense, I agree.

            • Isn’t Jane the witness who based her opinion on who was on top on the media images of a ittle boy and a mean looking overweight man that were all over the news, and assumed that George was the bigger person. She said the larger person was on top. GZ may have outweighed Tm but TM was much much taller, and with loos fitting clothes would have looked much bigger. She admitted she was basing the size on those misleading photos.

        • The facts are still the facts. GZ had injuries, TM did not, It doesn’t matter how many blows TM struck, he was the agressor, if GZ exxagerated or not doesn’t matter, he was injured and in fear for his life. John Good saw him hitting GZ MMA style. Whatever happened between GZ and those two women does not change the facts.

      • @ Garth, are you aware that Samantha and her mother had been shopping “My Life with George Zimmerman” stories to the media for months before this incident occurred? And that the first person to report the incident vai Twitter (scooping everybody) was the reporter they had been working with? and that the post on tjwitter occurred while the police were still at the residence? Sounds like poor little victim Samantha called the reporter right after she hung up with 911.

        And remember in the incident with Shellie, she had to back down from her allegation that nothe was threatning her and her dad with a gun, when she had to admit that she never saw a gun.and there were never any allegations that he laid a hand on her. (Perhaps he got into a shoving match with her dad)

        Even if I believed both of these stories , I still believe that GZ acted in self defense in the TM incident. a “fair fight”. ? How is it a fair fight when only one person wants to fight, and sucker punches the other person. It’s like the “knockout game”, The eye witness testimony and the evidence are still the same , nothing has changed.

        I believe that GZ is not the same person he was before , that he is suffering from PTSD, the knowledge that he killed another human being (even though it was self defense), the ordeal of having to live in hiding for over a year before the trial, the circus fo the trial etc have taken their toll on him. He was stupid to go to the house while Shellie was there, and he was stupid to get involved with a bimbo. The thing is that anytime he has any kind of a disagreement with anyone, all they have to do is claim that he pulled a gun and it will be all over the news. Samantha knew that , and I believe she set him up to help her sell her story.

    • Nope, I haven’t changed my opinion of what happened between TM and GZ, the timeline remains the timeline, TM had to have laid in wait for GZ , and the evidence is still the evidence, TM assaulted GZ and GZ was acting in self defense. I don’t have a high opinion of GZ, he cheated on his wife and hooked up with a bimbo, and even though he and Shellie weren’t getting along he shouldn’t have done that. As for the two incidents, Shellie had to back off of her story that GZ went for a gun, she had to admit that she never saw a gun. She was angry and bitter and reporting GZ to the police was her way of getting revenge. The bimbo, Samantha, and her mother had been shopping “My life with GZ” stories to the media for months and couldn’t get anyone to pay them what they were asking,, Maybe she thought that another DV charge would spice up her story Her account on the 911 call makes no sense. . She was right there in the room with GZ when she made the 911 call, talking to him and recapping what she alledged he was doing for the benefit of th e911 operator and for the public who she knew would hear the call. She lied to him about being pregnant. What happened between them is he said she said. She knows from the incident with Shellie (she was there ) that all she had to do was say he pulled a gun on her and the media would be all over it. Is GZ and upstanding citizen, no he’s not, He has made some bad choices and maybe he could have handled things differently. He did not lay a hand on Shellie during the encounter, and she has never alledged thathe ever had. He did not lay a hand on Samantha other than to “push” her out the door . We heard her talking throught that part of the incident , it didn’t sound like he shoved her, or pushed her down the steps,sounds like he just wanted her out of there and barricaded the door so she couldn’t get back in until the police came..

      • In regards to the timeline, George Zimmerman stuck to the lie that he was attacked by Trayvon no more that 30 seconds after he hung up with dispatch. He even told that lie on Hannity long after Martin’s cell phone records were published showing he was still on the phone 30 seconds after GZ hung up. 30 seconds after Trayvon’s phone hung up Lauer was already talking to police because she heard loud noises and screams. But for shits and grins lets go with Zimmerman’s lie, that he came up with to mask how long he stayed out of his car after he hung up, and let’s say this happened 30 seconds after Zimmerman hung up. That gives Trayvon 4 minutes to do what according to Zimmerman and his dumb supporters story? From 7:10 to 7:14 Trayvon had to make it from Taaffe’s house to the clubhouse where he walked leisurely past GZ then to the T that GZ says he skipped or walked away quickly to then back from the T down the sidewalk all the way to the street to circle Zimmerman’s car while walking again and then he walked back to the T and WENT ALL THE WAY HOME since you retards believe Brandi Green and he was sitting on the back porch and then he walks all the way from home back to the T and attacks Zimmerman 30 seconds after he hangs up at 7:13 and some change. Those are all the things Trayvon did instead of going home you claim and he still had the strength and stamina after travelling the length of three football fields in 4 minutes to easily subdue Zimmerman. Gtfoh. And also during this four minutes of traveling at the speed of light he was still talking on the phone. Stfu. The timeline says Zimmerman is full of shit and hung up the phone and continued to pursue Martin instead of going backhis truck.

        • I have no reason not to believe Brandy Green. When she gave that interview the day after the incident she had no way of knowing that placing TM back at the apt would mean that he had backtracked to the T to confront GZ, BUT BUT BUT, I’m not going by her story, I’m going by Rachel placing him “right by his daddy’s gfs apt” after she said TM told her the guy was following him (right about the time GZ got out of his truck after he said GZ was circling it (which you can tell by the timeline of when her call cut off and when it reconnected and she was still placing him “right by the apt”. The proximity of the place where GZ’s truck was parked and where the incident happened is not that far, TM had way more than enough time to get away while GZ was still calmly talking on the phone to 911. If GZ had been chasing him down, why did the incident occur at the same place where GZ had reported to 911 that he had seen TM disappear 4 minutes earlier. No your story makes no sense. We know what time GZ got out of his car and when his phone call ended, and we know that TM’s phone did not break it’s connection until after the altercation was already underway when Lauer called.

      • GZ may very well have developed PTSD after he shot TM, but this doesn’t explain his fiancé. Her restraining order was requested prior to Shellie and the shooting of TM. The three domestic abuse complaints taken together, with GZ countering each woman’s accusations with counter accusations against them (and a restraining order for his fiancé), show a pattern of attempting to avoid criminal charges by throwing blame off himself and onto his victim. GZ reaching into his unbuttoned shirt and assuming a shooter stance, which was caught on the camera mounted outside the home GZ and SZ had shared, sticks in my mind. GZ, who has a good grasp of the law, including domestic abuse and self-defence and SYG, has had good success with this blaming strategy. Only this time, with his latest GF, who happens to be media and social media savvy (maybe even his near equal in manipulation), was able to convince the police that GZ is truly out of control. Since he was out of control this time and calling 911 to put out his ‘side’ of the story — an counter accusation — it follows that he was out of control with his fiancé, Shellie and TM as well. and used the same strategy to try to get out of it. Police are clearly having trouble ignoring the pattern now. One guy and three women saying he has a dark side? A teenager dead. Too much of a coincidence.
        The theory I put forward as to what happened that night in late Feb. 2012 fits very well with the physical evidence, witness evidence, RJ’s account and GZ’s NEN call. All of which support TM NOT having ambushed GZ. Only GZ’s account does this, and not always. In several accounts he describes TM approaching him with a question. That’s not lying in wait or ambushing any way you spin it. GZ’s bloody nose and TM’s scraped pinky also do not prove TM sucker-punched GZ because he felt ‘disrespected’. GZ’s own words on the NEN call confirm that he stalked the youth by car and later on foot (“He’s running,” not ‘he skipped’ as in the Hannity interview.)
        No one saw the first act of aggression (except GZ) and RJs and TM’s phone records confirm that his cell line was open during the initial verbal and physical confrontation. (And by the way TM’s earbuds were in. They were found beside his body near his head. Some inept first responder put them in his pocket.) And in his re-enactment, after the alleged ‘sucker punch’, GZ mimes moving southward while grappling with TM to account for the 40 feet in the re-enactment. Uh, why is GZ moving south and away from his truck in the direction TM would logically want to go as an innocent victim — his home. Why did a sucker punch from south to north lead to a struggle from north to south? The kid was obviously trying to get away from him. It all fits and with GZ’s pattern of bullying and counter accusation, there is no way TM was lying in wait and it is clear GZ was the aggressor.
        Also highly suspicious is the total lack of physical evidence that GZ tried to defend himself. Even a child would bite, scratch, pinch if pinned down. But GZ knew he had a gun and knew how to use it. He is a bully and a coward, who knew he was in over his head. During the struggle he was merely biding his time until he could pull that trigger.

        • Margaret you summed that up very well. GZ said TM approached him from the north. TM’s body ended up north. It sure looks like TM retreated back while GZ went forward towards him doesn’t it? That’s because GZ got trapped in his own lies. Selene Bahadoor was right, they went past her house and headed towards the T. His entire story about an encounter at the T is a lie because both J. Manalo and J. Surdyka looked outside when they first heard loud noises and guess what they saw? Nothing. Guess where they live? At the T. Their line of sight was directly at the T yet it wasn’t until noises got louder and closer that they went to their window again and then they saw them. This was something else totally glossed over by the inept state Prosecutors.

          • OK , let me get this straight. TM and GZ are at the T outside Surdyka’s window in a verbal confrontation. Ask yourself why was TM still at the T when he had 2 minutes (while GZ was on the phone with nen calmly talking to them) to make it just 100 yards to get to his apt? Explain why RJ said that he told her that he was “right by his daddy’s gf’s apt” (which occurred at about the same time GZ was still getting out of his truck according to the nen call and the time rj’s call got disconnected and reconnected) Also Selene BAdahor did not see anything until she saw TM and GZ struggling over by JOhn Good’s apt. (go back and listen to the tapes of hers and her sister’s original statements) It was Selen’s sister who saw something prior to the altercation. IN her sister’s original statement to the state prosecuter she said that “heard more than saw”, heard footsteps running…. that she saw A PERSON running toward the T (not 2 people chasing each other). That person would have to be TM running back to the T to assault GZ, per RJ’s testimony that TM told her he was right by his daddy’s apt. And you are wrong about Surdyka. She said she HEARD voices right outside her window, she didn’t look outside until after she heard the screaming , by that time they had moved down to Johns apt. Manolo, I haven’t taken the time to review his testimony but I believe that he did not look ousside until AFTER he heard the screaming. Other witnesses including JOhn and his fiance said they heard the screams getting louder as they moved from the the T closer to JOhn’s house..

        • No we don’t know the details of the incident between gZ and his fiance years ago, only that both filed charges and they were dismessed. However, Shellie and Samantha were both well aware that the public knows that an incident occurred, and they knew that the public would use that against him. They knew that any story they told would be believed. I’ve reviewed the Shellie surveilence video, one that was in slow motion, and at no point did I see George get into a “shooting stance” all you basicly see is she and her father on GZ’s heels. Even after you see him breaking the IPAD , they’re still out there Shellie, her father and some other guy, following him and his body guard his truck which was parked on the street. Shellie saying that GZ was trying to close the garage door on her and yet saying that he was in his vehicle which was not even near the garage with his hand on his gun , a gun which she had to admit later that she never saw. No she knew that if she called 911, it would get national media coverage, but was she in fear that GZ was going to shoot her, I don’t think someone would follow a person out to the street if he were threatening to do them harm. Samantha was at that scene, she knew the media attention it attracted. She and her mother had been shopping “My life with George Zimmerman” interviews and stories all over the place weeks before the incident with her. Nobody was interested in paying the amount they were asking, Her story makes no sense either and sounds very contrived.

          On your whole theory, I’ve been all over that before , during and after the trial. GZ was walking past the T, TM yelled at him , he turned around stepped toward him to respond, then turned back around to head back to his truck when TM ran from behind got in front of him and sucker punched him knocking him back (south), GZ was dazed and staggering backward trying to avoid more blows that’s why he was going nort to south. What you can’t answer is why TM was still at the T over 2 minutes after GZ had lost sight of him? . Several witnessess at the T stated that the altercation started there and moved south. All the evidence shows that GZ was injured and TM was not, John good saw TM on top of GZ reigning down blows. GZ could not fight back because his arms were pinned down. He managed to struggle over a little and that’s when tM saw and went for the gun, and GZ managed to get it first. That is the only story that makes sense. RJ’s and TM’s call prove beyond just the opposite of your theory. RJ puts TM “right by his daddy’s gf’s apt” at the same time that GZ was just getting out of his truck and still on the phone with nen for almost 2 more minutes. Why would TM be back at the T if he had not doubled back to assult TM? So TM’s phone was still connected , we already knew that. We just can’t hear the conversation he had with RJ. She didn’t realize that by putting him back by the apt she was proving GZ’s story. Bottom line TM assualted a man who happened to have a weapon, he caused his own death.

          • TM ran up behind GZ and then got in front of him? Even the guy who made the animated re-enactment didn’t try to stage it that way — because it makes no sense. An attacker coming from behind is more likely to push their intended victim in the back causing him to fall face down, or use a choke or restraining hold. When they encountered one another, they were either face to face already or TM stopped walking away (toward BG’s house) and turned to face him — probably as a result of GZ having grabbed at part of TMs clothing. The latter is probably what happened.
            I have kids in their teens and twenties. Two minutes on a cell phone to a member of opposite sex is nothing to them. They also like their privacy, particularly from younger siblings or steps. TM thought he was safe. He was close to home and couldn’t have anticipated that GZ would get out of his truck and appear on foot. TM had roughly four minutes to get home, more than enough time to go there and back more than once, but instead of doing so, he decided to finish his phone conversation with a teenaged girl — because he was a normal teenaged boy. As I said, he most likely remained close to where he was killed. Seeing GZ again after having been trailed by him in his truck would have been threatening. TM’s fear (stranger danger) would have returned at that point. For some reason, he chose not to break into a run (according to RJ). It was dark and TM may have thought that walking away (home) quickly would draw less attention. GZ spotted him anyway and entered the dog walk. The initial confrontation was probably within a car length or so of JG’s backyard.
            GZ received all the injuries because he doesn’t know how to defend himself in a fight, and is 1 or 1.5 out of ten on a scale of athleticism, according to testimony in court. He also knew he had a gun and would have be trying to reach for it the whole time. I don’t buy for a minute that he forgot he was packing. Not in that sort of situation, for sure. The reason TM had GZ pinned down appears to have been to prevent GZ from getting the gun. He was aware that GZ was armed, because GZ told him, perhaps with a gesture during the initial verbal confrontation (GZ statement that he was reaching back for his cellphone). TM was fighting for his life. The fact that GZ describes having to be careful not to shoot his own hand is very telling. Both of his hands were free when he fired. By the position of the body and spent casing, we know GZ’s head was not on the pavement at the moment of the shooting. TM may have actually relaxed his hold on GZ when neighbours started to come out, and could have been in the process of getting off when GZ killed him. This doesn’t fit with his claim of being in ‘fear for his life’.
            TM caused his own death? No, he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. GZ’s actions — following the kid with his truck, later setting out on foot and totally failing as an adult and holder of a concealed weapon permit to de-escalate a confrontation (say, by identifying himself as NW) — caused TM’s death.

            • BS, according to Rachel’s conversation TM was “right by his daddy’s gf’s apt”. Right by it. He wouldn’t have stayed down at the T to carry on his convesation with Rachel , he had been talking to her the whole time since walking from the 7-11. Why would he stay down at the T when he could keep walking down to the apt to give his “little brother” the skittles. Your theory makes no sense whatsoever. I see teenagers walking and talking all the time. It makes no sense for him to be just standing there at the T when he only had 70 yards to go. Even if he didn’t want to go inside while talking to her for privacy, he could have sat out on the porch before going in and besides Rachel was NOT his gf, doubt if he really cared about privacy.

  20. If Trayvon was shot while straddling Zimmerman (the only forensically supported conclusion), then he was the aggressor – plain and simple. No man in his right mind will attack another man with only his fists if the man he is attacking has a gun drawn on him. Therefore, logically Trayon attacked Zimmerman not knowing Zimmerman had a gun. By logical extension, Trayvon was beating Zimmerman while straddling him BEFORE the gun ever made an appearance. By further logical extension, Zimmerman pulled the gun only after he was knocked to the ground and shot upwards from the ground at his attacker. No one is seriously proposing that Trayvon was such a peaceful fellow that he was incapable of engaging in street fights. I think, what we all know is that Mr. Martin enjoyed physical altercations and that Zimmerman was lousy at it.

      • I’m pretty sure that tashatexas who just called me a dumbass is precisely representative of the vulgar, violent street culture that created our violent society in the first place. Notice, that I never resort to ad hominem attacks. I stick to the facts. The truth is that both the State Attorneys and the defense attorneys told the jury that Mr. Martin was on top. The State proposed that he was only shot after he attempted to get off Mr. Zimmerman. They NEVER suggested that Mr Zimmerman was on top. Perhaps tashatexas saw another trial on the Imaginary Channel.

        • I am very well aware that the State didn’t want to win this case as their own witness and the physical evidence contradicted their theory. Did I not also say the state had no interest in convicting Zimmerman? So yes you’re a dumb ass because you’re reading everything except what I’m typing. And you can take your disingenuous grand standing and shove it because you are the dumb ass supporting a woman abusing child killer, not me, you ignoramus. How about you play the ” I’m better than you” game on a thread where you’re not promoting half white thugs. Thanks. 🙂

          • The state didn’t want to win this case? You’ve got to be kidding. They did everything in their power to keep the defense from presenting evidence , not only did the state want to win this case, the judge wanted them to win it as well. The problem is that not one shread of evidence supported their case.

      • Which witness are you referring to as the witness who saw GZ on top. The one who admitted that she was going by the media pictures of TM as a little boy and GZ as a large menicing man and decided that the larger man was on top? Or the ones who saw GZ on top AFTER the shot? What crime scene evidence puts GZ on top?

      • Again the witness who placed GZ on top only said that it was him based on photos she had seen in the media which made GZ look like a very large man and TM look like a ittle boy, she believed the larger person was on top, and that would have been TM who was much taller. There is no crime scene evidence that places GZ on top.

  21. John Good’s testimony is 100% irrelevant since he admitted.he had no idea what happened after he went inside. Jayne Surdyka was looking really from the beginning and she contradicts Goods assertion that they were ever on the sidewalk but more importantly Surdyka was looking at a crucial. time and we know she’s not lying because the shell casing is EXACTLY where it should be for her story to be true. It was to Zimmerman’s right, over his back shoulder and that’s b EXACTLY how that casing discharges after being fired. If he was lying on his back with his head facing the sidewalk the shell casing would have been on or near the sidewalk to Zimmerman’s right side. Its IMPOSSIBLE that he fired that gun from.a supine position.

    • Just reviewed Jane’s testimony. I had her mixed up with another witness. She talks more about what she heard, two people talking right below her window (at the top of the T , where the altercation started (after TM had doubled back to confront GZ). She said she heard one deep aggitated voice, and another softer voice (the deep aggitated voice had to be TM, as he has a much deeper voice than GZ_ She made the assumption that the softer voice was that of a child but TM didn’t sound like any child evidenced by the video obtained from his cell phone where he is making fun of a homeless man getting beaten up by 2 other homless man and fillming it) She refers to the two people saying she saw two men (one on top of the other ) saying she knows now that it was 2 men but she really couldn’t see good enough to say at the time. She is confused, thought she heard 3 shots, saw GZ gep up off of TM but that had to be AFTER the shot. John good was right there, went outside and saw TM on top of GZ, and went inside to call and the shot went off almost immediatly after he went in as he was dialing 911. Also TM was not lying on his back until the officers turned him over to try to give him cpr. Witnesses have reported seeing him lying face down before that.

      • This woman was looking outside when thesshot went off. She was not confused. She called 911 and on the call she saw and heard everything being said so before she called police she saw and heard well too. She heard Zimmerman say he shot police and on the call she said “he said he shot him.” So she knows what she saw. HER CALL CAME IN TO 911 before John Good’s so she was looking at a time when he was not. She gave an interview to Anderson Cooper before the trial. The most important part of her testimony is that they were in grass the entire time and she saw Zimmerman get up and walk away, she never saw Trayvon move. Of course you had to look her up, the State made sure you remembered Rachel and forgot about Jayne. She never saw she saw TM get shot three times she said it sounded like three pop, so what? John Good said he never saw an attack so his testimony is useless. If Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked the person close enough to see says he never saw or heard blows.

        • Yes she saw TZ get up and walk away , toward her direction, that is not in dispute. It does in no way contradict his account of what happened. TM fell on top of him he crawled out and got on top of TM because he thought he had something in his hand, Syrdyka heard the beginning of the altercation, saw them in the grass, walked away from the window to call 911 telling them she heard 3 shots and then looked out and saw GZ as he was getting up. She said it all happened in seconds and believed she was looking out the window when the shots (Plural, she heard 3) were fired, but that it all happened so fast. While she was calling 911 it was nano seconds after John Good was outside with them, and came in and the shot was fired. . He was trying to call, her call just came in first. He was right there, she was too far away to even know if it was men, women or children skuffling in the grass, she said when GZ came toward her direction and was in the light she could see him. My point in mentioning that she thought she heard 3 shots was to show that she was confused. She was looking out the window, and had to go get her phone to call police that’s probably when the shot was fired for the few seconds she was getting her phone. The reason I had to look Jane up is because the trial was months ago and I had her mixed up with the lady who thought GZ was the one on top because the photos in the news reports made him look to be a much larger man and made TM look like a ittle kid.

      • This woman was looking outside when the shot went off. She was not confused. She called 911 and on the call she saw and heard everything being said in real time so before she called police she saw and heard well too. She even said on her 911’call that.Zimmerman looked Hispanic, that’s how well she could see. She heard Zimmerman say he shot Trayvon to police and on the call she said “he said he shot him.” So she knows what she saw. HER CALL CAME IN TO 911 before John Good’s so she was looking at a time when he was not. She gave an interview to Anderson Cooper before the trial. The most important part of her testimony is that they were in grass the entire time and she saw Zimmerman get up and walk away, she never saw Trayvon move. Of course you had to look her up, the State made sure you remembered Rachel and forgot about Jayne. She never said she saw TM get shot three times she said it sounded like three pop, so what? John Good said he never saw an attack so his testimony is useless. If Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked the person close enough to see says he never saw or heard blows. If Zimmerman had smart supporters you would realize that what Good actually proved was that.Zimmerman lied his ass off when he said he was viciously attacked. Even Jeanee Manalo had a good view and all she saw was arms going downward. She never saw an attack either.

  22. Once again you bring evidence into the discussion that the State Attorney did not seem fit to mention. I assume the State never mentioned this, either because it was untrue, unsupported or a different conclusion could have been drawn. However, feel free to present new evidence if it makes you feel better.

  23. The FDLE mentioned this and BDLR told Dr. DiMaio “did you read the testimony of Jayne Surdyka, she said Zimmerman was on top when the gun went off.” However the State never called anyone from the FDLE and it was actually DON WEST who brought up what Surdyka saw on cross, BDLR never mentioned it on direct because they were not interested in convicting Zimmerman. My point is, the State knew exactly what she said. In a pretrial hearing the FDLE said the bullet casing is at odds with Zimmerman’s story. So here’s the deal, don’t tell me anything about what the State didn’t do because like every headline during the trial and every Zimmerman supporter said during the trial THE STATE IS HELPING THE DEFENSE. I agree with you on that point now let’s discuss what the evidence showed and not what the State presented, shall we? Question one: Who was looking outside when the shot was fired, Surdyka or Good? 🙂

    • My understanding is that the forensic evidence specified that at the time the bullet tore through Trayvon’s shirt his shirt was in excess of three inches away from his chest. The bullet entered Trayvon’s chest and created a wide thin, spray-splatter pattern along the inside of Trayvon’s shirt. This was explained as proof that Trayvon was leaning over at the time of the bullet entry thus the fabric of the shirt was hanging away from his chest as any loose fitting shirt would do if the angle of the body was in a substantial forward tilt. If Trayvon has been lying on his back at the time of bullet entry, as some on this board contend, the shirt would have most definitely been touching his skin at the time and no wide, dispersed splatter pattern would have been possible. Any contention that Trayvon was lying on his back at the time he was shot would have to be dismissed out of hand, and in fact this one fact was mentioned as a primary reason that the jury decided in favor of a self defense explanation of the facts.

      Another interesting element brought up was the issue of injuries. Zimmerman has some but clearly not as many as he later claimed. Trayvon had none. Zimmerman’s overestimate of his injuries is consistent with anyone who would have been in few fights and was in fear mode. I suspect if my wife had been battered, she would report the battery as more serious than it was based on her non-existent experience at being beaten. The fact that Trayvon had no injury is totally consistent with him being the only one successfully landing blows and certainly consistent with him being on top. The fact that his blows were fewer and less deadly than Zimmerman believed they were does not mean that Zimmerman wasn’t being beaten. It just means he either exaggerated his injuries or in the climate of fear he experienced was unable to correctly recount exactly what occurred. I see no possibility of Trayvon being on the bottom and being able to land blows to Zimmerman without Zimmerman being able to do some damage. Put that together with the shirt splatter evidence and the conclusion a jury and I came to was clear. Trayvon was on top.

    • This is the woman who heard 3 shots, and told the 911 operator that she could open the window (after she had already said she had opened the window). She has also said that she saw 2 men shuffling on the ground one on top of the other and she knows NOW they were men (because at the time she couldn’t see well enough to know if they were men or women or children…. She saw GZ get up , but she was busy with 911 when the shot was fired and she didn’t really see who was on top of whom when that happened. She was a nice lady, who believes she heard and saw what they thought she heard and saw but she was too confused to be a credible witness. What her testimony DOES prove is that the altercation did indeed START at the top of the T and moved down to John Goods apt…. which makes no sense if you believe there was some kind of 4 minute chase, since that is exactly where TM had been when GZ told 911 he had lost sight of him.

  24. No Garth. Think about this: Both are standing. Zimmerman grabs Trayvon’s right hand with his left hand (in that police grip he learned at the gym), pulling Trayvon’s shirt/s away from his body, and shoots him with his right hand.

    • I suppose the same splatter formation could have come about if Zimmerman and Trayvon were both standing and Z grabbed T in such a way to pull the shirt away from T’s body. However, this does not correspond to the witness testimony that one person was on top of the other. Nor does this correspond with evidence that Zimmerman had impact injuries that could be attributed to fists but Trayvon did not. Nor does this correspond with evidence that the back of Zimmerman’s head impacted the ground at one time sufficient to cause abrasions and cuts.

      • It’s possible that TM straddled GZ early in the fight to prevent him from reaching the gun. I believe GZ let TM know he was armed during the verbal confrontation by reaching back toward his gun (based on GZ’s claim in various statements to be going for his cell phone) and assuming a shooter stance in the way he later threatened his wife and her father. It’s possible GZ actually pulled the gun, but this wouldn’t fit as well with TM straddling him. At the time of the shooting, TM may have realized GZ was able to grab his weapon, and TM was attempting to (instinctively) get up and move away. It’s impossible to know if he actually stood up or was semi-straddling/ trying to lean back, because no one (except GZ) witnessed the actual moment of the shot. GZ certainly could have reached up and grabbed TM’s sweatshirt, either to try to keep the boy from running or to deliver a (skin) contact shot. Based on GZ’s imitation of TM’s gestures at the time of the shooting, the boy may have even had his hands up to surrender. Sigh.

        • Let me be clear, I’m not saying Zimmerman was on Trayvon as in lieing flat on top of him, I’m saying he was over him in a dominant position when the gun went off. Its obvious he was pulling Trayvon’s shirt when the gun went off and that’s why the bullet hole and bullet wound do not line up. This is what we know for sure based upon the testimony of THREE WITNESSES: between.Zimmerman and Martin. Selma Mora, Jeanee Manalo and Jayne Surdyka all place Zimmerman on top immediately after the shot sounded and they never saw Trayvon move. In order for Zimmerman’s story to be true a position change is a must and it must start with Zimmerman first rising from the ground from a supine position. Not a soul saw that and at minimum Selma Mora should have looked out and saw Zimmerman getting up. What she saw was Zimmerman straddling Trayvon’s back and she saw Trayvon’s leg move, I believe because she saw Zimmerman turn Martin over. Remember, after the trial, Dr. Bao the medical examiner claimed he was prepared to offer proof that Zimmerman was on top when the shot went off but he was not allowed. When have you ever seen a trial were the medical. examiner for the State had no opinion on what happened but the Defense called a medical examiner that said he knows what happened but based it solely on John Good’s testimony when Good admittedly saw only a few seconds and not the most crucial moment? Anyway, my interest in this case is that I believe the physical evidence and screams prove Trayvon was murdered. And if that wasn’t enough there was a witness that placed Zimmerman in a dominant position over Martin when the gun went off yet John Guy in his closing presented a theory that was at odds with what three of his own witnesses observed. There was no position change so John Guy lied on Trayvon Martin.

          • IF GZ had been in a dominent position when the shot was fired, TM would not have fallen FACE DOWN as witnesses have reported. Aslo John Good was RIGHT there , he immediately went inside to call 911 and heard the shot as he was making the call, Not enough time for them to have changed positions , Surdyka was too far away and too confused, she heard 3 shots when only one was fired, she just remembers seeing GZ stand up afterwards, and he had been on top of TM after he managed to crawl out from under him.

        • In your scenario you have G reaching for his gun perhaps as a sign of having superior force, but afterwards being knocked to the ground, straddled and likely beaten. At some point g draws his weapon and T begins to get off. G shoots him anyway, either out of malice, fear, adrenaline, or bad judgement (while holding down T’s shirt). Of course this is possible, but a somewhat tortured explanation. A more likely explanation is that G was simply beaten first and then drew and shot. Motivation becomes less of an issue once we have G on his back and badly losing.

          • By GZ’s own statements (which self-preservational lies with some truth sprinkled in), he says he thought the shot might have missed, in others he says TM sat up when he was shot, and said ‘you got it’… He then corrects this to ‘you got me’ (like something out of an old western flick). TM saying ‘you got it’, which is quite possibly what he actually said, implies his awareness that GZ was able to draw his gun, which in turn implies that the latter half of the fight was over the gun (if not the earlier part as well). What’s not clear is, if TM did in fact say ‘you got it’, whether he said this immediately before or after the shot. If it was before, which makes more sense to me (anything’s possible but I’m doubtful TM would have been capable of coherent speech after a shot through the heart and lung in spite of expert testimony), then TM may indeed have been attempting to get off GZ, especially considering neighbours (help) were coming out. It’s quite simple really, TM pins GZ down to keep the gun out of play. GZ frees his hands. The gun is then aimed at TM who by instinct tries to move away. GZ may have grabbed the front of TM’s shirt. Evidence does support this. Until GZ got on the kid’s dead body and frisked him, he truly thought TM was a thug, possibly armed, or as some say GZ was in wannabe cop mode. What’s really complicated is GZ’s description of how he was able to draw the gun. (Not to mention more bad-movie dialogue supposedly from TM — ‘you’re gonna die tonight…???) GZ would have needed three hands if he was still fighting off blows, holding one of TM’s hands, aiming etc. Nope, GZ was able to wiggle up enough to free his arms. Once the gun was drawn, (tragically) adrenaline took over and TM couldn’t get away in time. As I said, TM may have even surrendered.

            • Sheer speculation on your part. There is no way TM could have known that GZ had a gun. He saw it when GZ’s coat came up during the struggle and they both went for it. That’s why he released his grip on GZ , to go for the gun, GZ just got it first. Nothing else even makes sense. No TM can’t tell his side of the story but that doesn’t mean that you all can just make something up. The eye witness testimony is consistant with GZ’s story. Like someone pointed out earlier in this thread , you can’t just disconut GZ’s story when there is nothing , no evidence whatsoever to proove that he is not telling the truth, all the what ifs in the world are not proof of anything.

            • You.are very close to explaining what was going on Margaret, well said. The only problem I have with the “Trayvon was giving up” or he was trying to get up is this ZIMMERMAN IS THE ONE WITH THE STAIN FREE CLOTHES. What people fail to realize is that there were three witnesses that debunked John Goods story yet the state built their theory around Goods story. Goods story is 100% pure hogwash for two reasons 1. It contradicts Zimmermans account of what happened (GZ says it went from concrete to grass, Good says it went from grass to concrete) 2. Good admitted he saw maybe a few seconds went inside, shut the door and didn’t see what was happening when the gun went off however Surdyka was looking and she never saw Trayvon get.up and she saw them in grass the whole time. Her testimony TRUMPS JOHN GOODS. The State theorizing that TM was giving up and didn’t see the gun is in direct contradiction to their own voice experts that said Martin was screaming. For what? THE GUN, HE WAS TRYING TO AVOID BEING SHOT BY THE GUN.

              Both Zimmerman and Osterman describe a struggle for the gun. Why? Because they knew there was a possibility Trayvons prints could be found on it! The struggle was all about the gun and by saying Trayvon never saw it John Guy both took the screams out of Trayvons mouth and helped convict him of his own murder. Trayvon was full of grass because he is the one that was in the.grass trying to keep from being.shot, not Zimmerman. That is what his.clothes says, the location of is body says the location of the shell casing says and what three witnesses saw.

            • First of all John Good was the only witness who was close enough to see what was happening. Surdyka’s testimony was scattered, didn’t she say she heard 3 shots. The other witnesses did not see anything until after the shot was fired when they saw GZ get up, they were too far away to see who was who anyway, like the witness who said that GZ was the one on top because she based her opinion on those photos of TM as a little boy and gZ as a big burley guy, and assumed that the bigger person was on top. Good was right there, he even went outside and said something to them and nano seconds after he went inside, the shot was fired as he was calling 911.

              The voice experts were guys who had been hired by the newspaper to make GZ look guilty. The FBI experts stated that there was no way to determine who was screaming from those tapes. Your theory that it was TM screaming because of the gun doesn’t make sene when we know that the screaming went on for at least 40 seconds before ths shot was fired. Think about it, if someone were pointing a gun at you would you scream for 40 seconds, or would you plead with the person not to shoot? Nope up until the very last second, TM was on top of GZ beating him mma style, he wouldn’t have been doing that if he’d had a gun pointing at him. Use a little common sense

            • John Good obviously didn’t have as great of a view as he claimed since he said events happened in complete reverse of what Zimmerman said. So don’t be a damned dummy and tell me to use common sense when what you typed is a contradiction and DEVOID of common sense. Good could not possibly have seen much since he could not see well enough to determine the direction the two people in front of him actually moved. Surdyka, Manalo and Mora all saw them in grass. Trayvon WHOLLY IN GRASS and Surdykas call came in before Goods so she was dialing and looking during times that he was not. She started looking out of her window when she first heard loud noises so she was zeroed in at her window during the time Good was debating about going outside or not. Her story matches up because the body was found exactly where she says she last saw them and THREE PEOPLE confirm Trayvon never moved. Therefore they prove Good is a liar because its IMPOSSIBLE that Trayvon was on the sidewalk seconds before the gun went off AND MIRACULOUSLY TRANSPORTED TO THE GRASS WITHOUT GETTING UP! The only way Trayvon from where Good says he last saw.him to where he ended up is by getting up and moving backwards. Three people placed Zimmerman on top of Martin simultaneously to that gun going off so Good is lying. Trayvon and Zimmerman were in that grassy area when the gun sounded therefore there was no time for them to go from grass to sidewalk then back to grass as would be the case if Goods story were true. As I said he CONTRADICTED ZIMMERMAN by saying the bodies moved in the opposite way Zimmerman claimed so don’t tell me he was the best witness WHEN HIS DAMN STORY WAS BACKWARDS!

            • Good didn’t see much but he saw more than anybody else did and from a much closer vantage point. He was actually outside while TM was on top of GZ,

            • Good did not have the best view apparently because not only was his story backwards in relationship to what Zimmerman said but he also said he saw no blows being thrown, no hands and no ones mouth. Both were fully covered. What did he see? He said he didn’t know if TM was wearing the hoodie or not? Really? What what part of a person possibly in a hoodie did he see FROM BEHIND and notice he was black? He noticed TM was black when he looked out after the shot was fired and saw Manalo shining a light on him.

            • Good had a better view than any of the other witnesses. He saw the person wearing dark clothing on top and the person wearing red or white on the bottom, he said he could see that the person on the bottom had light skin. I didn’t review the entire 2 hour testimony but I don’t recall him mentioning that he noticed that TM was black during the struggle, and it doesn’t matter since he was going by the color of the clothing each were wearing. He saw that it was indeed TM On the top, when he was on the call wiht 911 he told them that the person who had been on top was lying in the grass…

            • Oh and the 3 people who placed GZ on top ONLY saw him there AFTER the shot, AFTER the shot which is consistant with GZ’s story.

            • False. Surdyka saw him on top BEFORE THE SHOT J. Manalo saw him on top during the struggle and Mora saw him on top immediately after. Also Surdyka saw him top the entire time because after the shot was fired the other person NEVER MOVED. That is also consistent with what the other two witnesses said. What John Good claims he saw on concrete CANNOT be true because Trayvon never moved after the shot was fired which means he should have been found on the sidewalk, he was found WHOLLY in the grass. When the

            • Surdaka didn’t know what she saw, she was too far away, and she was distracted when she was calling 911 , Manolo is the one who formed the opinion that GZ was on top because she saw the “larger” peron on top and was going by the photos of TM as an itty bitty child and GZ as a menacing older much larger person. In the dark a tall skinny kid with loos clothing would look much larger than a short guy who was a little overweight. Mora was correct that GZ was indeed on top AFTER the shot was fired. I reviewed Goods testimony and yes he did see them paralell to the sidewalk, and then move to be partially on the sidewalk BEFORE he went inside, he didn’t see the movement right after that, right before the shot. GZ’s story is that he managed to sgruggle off the sidewlak and that is whne TM saw the gun and wen tof it, it is totally consistenGZt with Good’s story. If GZ had been on top , then how do you explain TM’s body being face down? It was face down until he was turned over for cpr.

            • In regards to the screams oh sensesless one the supposed inability of the FBI to determine who screamed is an indictment on Zimmerman who attempted to prove it was him but could not BECAUSE HE COULD NOT REPRODUCE THOSE SCREAMS! If that was him he should have been able to replicate those sounds and because he could not, the FBI.could not say it was him. Two experts used those same fake.sounds he made to exclude him as the sole source of those screams. Further, if the voice analysis is inconclusive that doesn’t mean Trayvon never screamed in fact Zimmerman was never asked and to this day has never said Trayvon never screamed. As for the blood on Zimmerman Zimmermans own defense says Zimmerman never bled until he stood up so he is saying his injury happened AFTER Martin was already shot. Zimmerman is admitting and DNA evidence proves that Zimmerman’s bleeding and minor scratches were caused by.someone other than Trayvon. Also, 100 out of 100 teens and adults but definitely teens would scream like hell if they notice that.someone in close proximity to them had a.gun! Zimmerman admitted Trayvon screamed when he said Trayvon was aware of that gun. I have no reason to believe he became aware of it at the last minute, within seconds of encountering Zimmerman, Martin was dead. Clearly THE GUN was at play long before we heard the shot THUS THE SCREAMS!

            • Oh ton the stains on the clothes, the police reported that the back of GZ’s clothes were wet and had grass on them, consistent with him being on the bottom and on his back . I don’t recall any testimony on TM’s clothes (other than the bullet hole) , but I saw the exibit showing grass stains on the KNEES of his pants, consistant with him being on top of TM

            • The police clearly lied. It was raining outside, why would they say his back was wet as if he had been lying in grass? His back was wet like everyone else’s back because it rained. His butt and the backs of his shoes as well as the front of his clothes should have been full of grass but it was not. He was never on his back in the grass.

            • The police lied? Yeah right? Why would they do that? It makes no sense, that is what was in the police report . A person lying on there back in wet grass is going to be wetter on the back than the front , and GZ was wearing a jacket that looks to be water repellant. The police reported what they saw. How do you explain the stains on the knees of TM’s pants if he wasn’t on his knees straddling GZ? Why didn’t GZ have grass stains on the knees of his pants if he was the one on top? Your theory defies reason.

      • Any thinking individual who knows anything at all about head trauma should know that there is NO WAY Zimmerman’s head came into contact with an unforgiving object like concrete and he not only didn’t lose consciousness but he also had the strength and presence of mind after such an assault to get to his gun before Trayvon could take it, or actually he out maneuvered Trayvon per his words and “gained wrist control” and got off a perfect front to back shot into Trayvon’s heart. Pure bullshit. The State did not want to win this case because instead of putting on an expert to explain the improbability of this from a neurological perspective they put on Dr. Valerie Rao who said Trayvon could have hit him once so hard that it knocked him off his feet and caused him to hit three sides of his head on concrete. The State threw the trial at that moment because if that happened why would Trayvon then get on top of him instead of running? The State told you Trayvon  beat up Zimmerman but common sense about head injuries and their own DNA evidence which showed Zimmerman’s DNA wasn’t on Trayvon’s arms and sleeves proves they lied on Trayvon in that instance as well. For the remainder of the trial OMara continued to refer the jurors back to Rao’s testimony, that’s how much she helped the defense.

        • It depends on how far from the concrete GZ’s head was when it hit the concrete, if it was a few inches, it wouldn’t have knocked him unconcious. I believe that his head was kind of bouncing ont the concrete when TM was reigning down blows MMA style on him . At any rate the injuries were real, the severity of the injuries is irrelivant , it is not how bad you are injured that determines whether you are in fear of your life. It is the belief that you are going to be badly injured or killed that is grounds for self defense. You don’t wait until you are already unconcious or dead to react.

    • How would pulling Trayvon’s left hand cause his shirt to move out 3 inches from his body? No witnesses reported seeing TM and GZ standing. Surdyka heard a verbal confrontation outside her window right at the top of the T, while they were apparently still standing, everyone who saw anything at all, including Surdyka only saw the two of them on the ground.

      • What? Trayvon’s shirt, both of them, were pulled downward and the bullet hole ended up under the photo button. Obviously we will never know exact positions but what we do know is TRAYVON WAS NOT STRADDLING ZIMMERMAN WHEN HE WAS SHOT. That is a fact. And again, if the state Prosecutor had one brain cell he could have chewed Good up and spit him out. There he was saying he looked into total darkness and saw cloth color and skin color. (Actually the truth is Good saw this after the area was illuminated with a flashlight) but anyway if you were close enough to see that level of detail then you were close enough to see this so called attempted murder. Did he see that? NO. He admitted he didn’t tell the truth the first time. So if Trayvon wasnt beating Zimmerman’s ass why the HELL would he be screaming like that? HE WOULDN’T BE!!! The person screaming was terrified of a gun. The person screaming was Trayvon Martin.

        • TM leaning over GZ (while straddling him) is the only explanation for the shirt and hoodie to be 3 inches out from his body. Where do you get that you know that TM was not straddling him, even your witness Syrdaka said one was on top of the other (she didn’t know which, only that she saw GZ get up afterwards) They were not standing up. If TM was on the bottom then why did he land face down? The body was face down before the police turned him over to give him cpr, that’s why you see his feet crossed at the ankles in the photo of his body. That’s from him being turned over, he wouldn’t have fallen like that.

          • Yes, TM fell forward. This could happen from a near lying down position or a standing position. Most likely TM was shot while attempting to stand with GZ clutching his shirt. The teen also likely had his hands up in surrender.

            • What did not happen is Trayvon was not over the top of a supine Zimmerman when he was shot. He was close enough for Zimmerman to pull his shirt but far enough away for Zimmerman to get off an INTERMEDIATE range shot that made contact with Trayvon’s pulled shirts and entered at a perfect 90 degree front to back. The shirt pull is possible with Trayvon getting up but not the angle and trajectory of the bullet. John Guy should be disbarred for his demonstration during closing. Zimmerman was on top and holding Trayvon’s shirt when he pulled the trigger. That explains the trajectory, location of the bullet wound, location of the body and statement from the three wwitnesses who placed GZ on top. John Good was an anomaly and a useless witness. Please stop mentioning him you Zimmerman supporters.

            • The only witnesses who placed GZ on top were those who saw AFTER he managed to struggle out from under TM and get on top of him, and that one woman who based her opinon on who was on top by the pictures she saw of a little bitty kid and a scowling overweight guy who people thought from thos photos outweighed TM by 100 lbs. She stated that she could really see that well but that the larger person was on top (which from a distance a tall guy like TM in loose clothing would look much larger than a hevier shorter man) Your theory makes no sense, why would GZ be pulling on TM’s shirt? If he had a gun and was about to shoot, he wouldn’t need to hold on to TM’s shirt to get his shot off.

            • And it also explains the location of the spent shell casing as well aa Trayvon’s body that was covered in grass while we all saw pics of the grass free Zimmerman, except for the fronts of his boots. In other words, all of the evidence we saw was explained with GZ in an on top position. When you place TM on top the only thing that makes sense is Good’s claim of seeing TM on top before the gun sounded. Clearly that is useless when the states theory was that GZ kilked Martin not because he wanted to but because he had to. So what was happening when the gun went off? It’s actually not a mystery but since the state didn’t present a murder trial we are left trying to solve the puzzle. No blood spatter expert, no testimony about the shell casing, a medical examiner that had NO OPINION about who was on top and not a single word of testimony from the FDLE who are the ones who did the investigation and decided GZ should be charged. What were their findings? Do you know? I know from what they said in the pretrial hearing but they were not called at trial. The jurors really had no choice but to find him not guilty and that falls square in the lap of the state of Florida. If the DOJ cannot charge him I will work tirelessly to tell people what the state of FL helped Zimmerman do to Trayvon Martin.

            • Everyone I have ever seen getting up off the ground, including myself, brushed themselves off after laying on the grass. This would explain GZ’s lack of grassy clothes. The lack of grass on GZ is not a good way to construct a theory of guilt.

            • The FDLE was not called by the prosecution because they did not find any evidence other than that which was already provided by the local police. There were grass stains on the knees of TM’s pants. The back of TM’s jacket and pants were wet and had some grass stains. The FDLE was mainly brought in to try to make it into a racial hate crime, and they couldn’t find anything to support that, they found just the opposite. Their testimony would have hurt the prosecution. The prosocution put on a stupid case, but that was because they had nothing, none of the evidence supported their case, none of the eye witness testimony supported it. You don’t seriously believe that Angela Corey wanted to loose such a high profile case do you?

            • I find it very disturbing and very irrational that so many on this board believe that the State Attorneys intentionally threw this case. I worked for 8 years as a Court Clerk before I became a transportation officer in the same county. I knew and still know many State Attorneys, and the one thing I can tell you for sure is that all State Attorneys look at high profile cases as an opportunity to establish their credibility for a future either as a criminal defense attorney or a judge or as a ranking member of the State Attorney’s office. Some of the same people who were absolutely convinced that the State Attorneys were winning this case, now believe that they threw the case. I know absolutely that these guys put their heart and soul in this case. They did the best with what they had, but with no eye witness who could refute that Zimmerman was on the bottom, no injuries to Trayvon other than a gun shot wound, Jeantel (probably a State Attorney’s worst nightmare) and the fact that Trayvon had so much time to return to the his house but was somehow killed much closer to Zimmerman’s car than his own home, and we had a recipe for certain defeat for the State. A State Attorney will often plea out a case or give less than perfect preparation to a low profile murder case, but none of them will ever throw the high profile case of the decade and possibly their entire career. The same reason people on this board have trouble coming up with a strong case for Zimmerman acting out of malice and intention to kill, is the reason why the State was a far distant long shot on this case.

            • That’s because THERE WAS NO CASE. Angela Corey never should have indicted him , there was absolutly no evidence whatsever on which to base probable cause. You can’t build a case when all of the evidence supports the defendant’s story. The police dept was correct for not charging him. This only went to trial for political reasons. EVENi if you believe that GZ was guilty, you still have to have some kind of real evidence to prosecute the case.

            • The reason I pointed out that TM fell face down was to prove that TM was the one in the dominant position, which (I’m not sure if it was SAsha or someone else) was trying to say that GZ was the one on top. TM was on top of George reining down blows on him and obiviously had the clear advantage, why would he stand up. He sat up when he realize GZ had a gun, in order to try to grab for it. All of you who who want to believe GZ is guilty have totally different theories, which is all they are, theories, none of which are plausible based on the timeline, the evidence and the eye witness reports.

  25. Let’s not be ridiculous here. The state had a case the problem is that Corey is notorious for being in bed with the SPD so she could not get a conviction by refusing to attack their shoddy police work and investigation. We all know we heard Zimmerman admitting to chasing someone who was fleeing and literally minutes later the kid was dead. They heard screaming on that tape and the sceamer said more than “help me” and voice experts confirm hearing someone besides Zimmerman screaming. There was a case against this over zealous fat ass but the case was DELIBERSTELY THROWN the second it was decided that the same dept that let Zimmerman go the same night would not be challenged and QUESTIONABLE photos not submitted thru any proper channels or even carefully scrutinized by the state were allowed. The bloody nose photo which shows not a smidgen of blood coming from Zimmerman’s nostils went unchallenged. Thst photo alone proves Zimmerman lied his ass off about what happened because both the injiuty and bleeding are EXTERNAL so since thst blood isnt both smeared all over Zimmerman’s face and all over Trayvons clothes THEN TRAYVON DID NOT CAUSE THAT INJUTY AND. THEN CONTINUE TO BEAT AND SMOTHER ZIMMERMAN. Attacking that photo would have been a direct attack on the SPD and Corey was not going to allow the. So don’t tell a nondamn fool a damn fool story. There was no real desire
    to successfully prosecutor Zimmerman.

    • @ Tasha, you are the one being rediculous Where is the assertion that Corey was in bed with the SPD coming from? I’ve seen nothing anywhere to indicate that she was even familiar with the SPD. If she had been in bed with them, she would have let the case go to the grand jury, instead of bypassing the grand jury and indicting GZ , because she knew that a grand jury would not come back with probable cause to indict him. She was appointed to go over their heads, but her investigators found absolutely nothing to repute what their investigation had determined to be insufficient evidence for probable cause. They could not find any additional evidence , and the FBI could not find anything in Zimmerman’s past that would make him out to be a racist , which is what they really wanted to do, and they found just the total opposite. The main reputation that Corey had was overcharging, which is what she did in this case, a case where there shouldn’t have been charges brought in the first place. The so called “experts” were brought in by a newspaper who wanted to prove that GZ was guilty, and the defense had FBI experts testify that those samples were not adequate enough to determine who was screaming. IF you heard the tape of TM’s voice (the one from that video where he taped the homeless man being beaten up, because he thought it was funny, and was narrating) , you would hear that his voice is WAY deeper than GZ’s voice. Someone hearing both voices w/o seeing either party would believe that the voice was coming from the older person. The bleeding proves nothing except that GZ was indeed injured. Just because you don’t see the blood runing down his nostles proves noting, the absense of evidence is not evidence, and there was plenty of evidence that GZ was injured which is consistent with his story. You are grasping at straws, theorys are not evidence. You have to have REAL EVIDENCE to prosecute a case EVEN if you know someone is guilty, you still have to have something to present to a jury. They made fools of themselves trying this case because they had none, their case was basicly nothing but theory as to what might have happened, no evidence whatsoever. She even suppressed evidence from the defense, and fired the guy from her office who testified that he had extracted information from TM’s cellphone (that her office had withheld from the defense). They made sure that a lot of evidence that would have helped GZ was not allowed to be presented to the jury. There is no way that someone as political as Angela Corey would make herself look so foolish , even if she were in bed with the SPD.

      • Ok wait you’re going to disagree about my assertion.that a PROSECUTOR being chummy with THE POLICE? You.can’t be that damned dumb. Who do prosecutors rely on to get their convictions? You.think she’s then going to challenge her helpers? Further, I learned about Corey’s REPUTATION in regards to her relationship with the SPD by researching. How about your silly ass do that before disagreeing? Why the hell would I debate with someone who first asks me to prove what I said AND then says its not true?

        Not interested.

    • I find it absolutely amazing that the same people that once said the “State is sure to win”, suddenly switched their song to ” the State deliberately threw the case”.

      • @ Garth , me too. I remember how the media was portraying the trial, making it sound like a conviction was in the bag, and people didn’t start sayting the state threw the case until after the verdict.

        • I find it astonishing that you fools have a such a short memory. What I recall is all of you black child killer supporters saying, “it looks like the prosecution is working for the defense.” I also remember headline after headline that said the state was doing a horrible job and an acquittal was inevitable. All of this information is still available on Google if you clowns would like to look it up. In regards to the photo Zimmerman’s face there isn’t a got doggone competent prosecutor this side of Himalayas that would not point out two things. 1. The photo was not entered into evidence thru proper channels nor was it collected in a proper fashion nor was it turned over to police in a timely fashion. Subsequently, the photo submitted weeks later is at odds with a proper


          • photo taken at the police station which shows the only injury to his nose were those small nicks at the tip of it. Those same EXTERNAL nicks are the only thing that bled on Zimmerman’s nose. There was never any bleeding from his nostrils which is REQUIRED if his nose was broken. Therefore the state was supposed to challenge these things and they did. The police should have questioned how Martin could cause 3 nicks at the tip of Zimmerman’s nose in the first place. That is not the type of injury that you would expect from apunch to the nose.

            • Even with the benefit of the DNA evidence which showed that this EXTERNAL blood was not all over Travyon and smeared all over Zimmerman
              s face which means that things didn’t happen as Zimmerman said the state presented a case that CORROBORATED Zimmerman’s story. Even though their own DNA evidence says Zimmerman’s story is a lie they put on a pathologist that said Martin had punched Zimmerman and caused all of his injuries lmao! Then in closing arguments John Guy said Trayvon never saw the gun and was on top of Zimmerman but backing away when the gun went off. That would mean Trayvon was not the one screaming and they had TWO VOICE EXPERTS that told them Trayvon was screaming. So don’t tell me this case wasnt thrown when the state was presenting theories at odds with the evidence they had collected!!!

            • There wouldn’t have been any of GZ’s blood on TM if TM were on top as the witnesses corroborated. Even if you believe there should have been GZ dna on TM, absense of evidence doesn’t prove anything, when you have real evidence that proves the opposite. Those two “experts” who testified that it wasn’t TM screaming were discredited by FBI real experts who said there wasn’t enough on the tape to determine who was screaming. John believed it was GZ screaming, and when you consider that when John heard the screaming TM was on top of him slaming his head on the cement , it doesn’t make sense that it would have been TM screaming. John Guy was just speculating as to what could have happened, He has no way of knowing whether or not TM saw the gun, nor whether he was sitting up backing away. You can’t PROVE a case based on speculation. The prosecution had nothing to go on but speculation and emotion, they couldn’t explain why TM was back at the T , after (per their star witness) he had gone all the way back to the apartment. They had to concede that TM was indeed the one who was on top, so that was the best lame scenario he could come up with

          • DUH it was the STATE, who put out the bloody photo in black and white so that it didn’t look as bad as it really was, it certainly wasn’t the defense withholding evidence. The STATE deliberately took a color photo and changed it to black and white so that it wouldn’t look as bad. The photo was indeed placed in evidence through the regular channels AFTER the defense finally got a copy of the unaltered original photo taken by the guy that was on the scene before the police got there. Yes I was one who stated that the prosecution was making the defenses case and that is because the only witnesses available were all the ones who corroborated GZ’s story after they were cross examined.

            • Duh I’m pretty sure you just proved my point! The state should have never accepted the photo and entered it into evidence. It was neither collected nor submitted thru proper channels. It is clear the Zimmerman never had a broken nose because broken noses bleed from the NOSTRIL and not the tip! Therefore the only photo admitted would be the one taken at the police station which showed what his nose ACTUALLY looked like without the obvious amd miraculously healed distortion. They had no interest in convicting Zimmerman but rather they went out of their way to prove the SPD got it right the first time. That is why they released that pic and failed to explain that if anything it proved Zimmerman was lying his ass off. A punch to the nose would not produce three nicks at the tip of his nose but a gun recoil would. Trayvon didn’t nave that external blood on him because he didn’t cause it and if by some miracle he didn’t then he certainly didnt also continue to beat and smother Zimmerman. This is just common damn sense and not conspiracy. Any competent prosecutor would have allowed that photo to be admitted SOLELY to hang his ass out to dry. We all know why that didn’t happen.

            • Proved your point? The state had the photo from the beginning, as soon as they took over the case, It was evidence from the scene, taken by someone who was right there when GZ was placed in the squad car before the emts cleaned him up. They had the photo since March of 2012, but the grainy black and white was what was released to the press. Had they released the photo the way it was taken, it would have swayed public opinion, and they couldn’t have that, they wanted the world to believe their false narrative, and a bloody picture of GZ would have caused some to doubt it. Have you ever heard of discovery? That is when the prosecution is REQUIRED by law to hand over every bet of evidence they have to the defense . Instead of giving the defense the digital HD color copy of the photo, they gave them the grainy black and white copy that they had released to the press, it took from March 12 to October 12 for them to finally turn it over to the defense. There has been no allegation by anyone that this evidence was not processed through the proper channels, nor that it was admitted as evidence w/o going through the proper channels. Blood coming from the tip of the nose? I don’t see that in the picture, all I see is blood under his nose…… You are making no sense. Again, that TM did not have GZ’s blood on him doesn’t prove anything….. TM was on top of GZ, Blood coming out of GZ’s nose probably wouldn’t have happened until after he stood up. The prosecution had no say in wheter or not that photo was allowed in court. It was evidence, it HAD to be provided to the defense as discovery, and the defense had every right to use it. It was not the state throwing the case, they tried to keep the defense from getting the color HD picture, just like they tried to withhold TM’s cellphone date from discovery. They were doing everything they could to prevent anything that could have helped the defense from being used.

  26. They also had not one, not two but three witnesses that placed Zimmerman on top of Martin at various times during this encounter, one during and two immediately afterwards yet the state via John Guy had Trayvon Martin on top of Zimmerman the entire time. He had Trayvon “getting up and backing away” from Zimmerman right before the shot went off which places Travyon as the agressor the entire time and also doesn’t account for his clearly PULLED CLOTHING. So how the phuck are you going to sit here and tell me that in a self-defense case the state creates a self-defense claim for the defendant which makes it guarantee that he wouldn’t testify and they did their best? 1 time in 1000 a defendant is acquitted in a self defense case without testifying in court. It happened in this case not because the EVIDENCE wasnt strong enough but because to convict Zimmerman would also be a indictment against the SPD and COREY WAS NOT GOING TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN

    • GZ had stated that he got on top of TM after the shot was fired, so that’s what the 2 people testified to, the same story that GZ told the police BEFORE he even knew there were any witnesses or what they would say. The other one who placed GZ on top was a woman who said she couldn’t see very well and had stated that the larger man was on top, she had assumed GZ was the larger man because of the photos put out there by the press of TM when he was a little kid and GZ when he was much heaver than he was during the incident. The John Guy theory was an attempt to find another reason for the shirt not being next to TM’s body when the shot was fired, besides the defense claim that it was because TM was on top and therefore the shirt would have been away from the body. The bullet entry evidence had to be explaned, JG came up with a theory a little different than the defense as something that could have explained that shirt being away from the body, but there is no evidence that the clothing was “clearly pulled”, I don’t know where you are getting that. Also Guy wasn’t making a case for the defense, he was trying to make the case that he was stopping, giving up and that there was no need for GZ to shoot him as his life was no longer in danger. It was lame but it was all he had. The closing statement was after the defense had closed it’s case so it had nothing to do with GZ not testifying. He did not need to testify because they played his reinactment and some of his interviews, the jury already had his story. There is no reason on this earth that Corey would cover for the SPD and risk her reputation This case made her look like an idiot. She wanted a conviction, but she didn’t have ANY evidence AT ALL.

      • Considering the PRISTINE blood on Zimmerman face and head Trayvon was giving up doing what exactly??? Jayne Surdyka saw very well and what she saw was that they were in the grass the entire time consequently Trayvon was COVERED in it and Zimmerman has verifiable grass stains on the front of his boots only. So what Surdyka saw is consistent with VERIFIABLE evidence and what Good saw is irrelevant. Trayvon died nowhere near the sidewalk so unless Good can tell us how Trayvon ended up there when he supposedly last sawhim on the ssidewalk then he’s full of shit. John Guy saying Trayvon was “getting up” means he was attacking Zimmerman until the gun went off and it also means Trayvon was never the one screaming if he was the aggressor the whole time. Why the hell would he be screaming while attacking someone and telling them he would kill them? Guy also said Trayvon NEVER saw the gun so that also would mean he wasn’t screaming. So the state IGNORED Jayne Surdyka, they IGNORED their own voice analysts and they IGNORED their own DNA expert that confirms the encounter didn’t happen as Zimmerman said and they IGNORED physical evidence contained on their clothes that says Trayvon was on the losing end of this grass battle. You look like a got damn fool now trying to defend the same prosecutors you talked trash about during the trial. Shut your dumb ass up.

        • Maybe not “giving up”, maybe just backing off. Guy’s point was that if that were the case then GZ would not need to shoot him because he would no longer be in fear for his life. I have not , and do not time, to review the entire 3 hour closing comments by him, but I don’t recall him saying that at no point did TM ever see the gun. Anyway I did review Surdyka’s testimony. She did not say they were in the grass the entire time. She heard the voices and it was minutes later that she opened her window and looked outside and saw them in the grass over by John Good’s house. She stated that the person on top was wearing black. She believes she was watching when the gun went off, but she must have looked away when she was dialing 911 because she did not see when GZ got out from under TM and get on top of him. As the defense pointed out, if she saw what she thought she saw, GZ on top of TM and TM being face down, then TM would have had to have been shot in the back. She also heard 3 shots and we know there was only one, could have been an echo. She formed her opinion based on the louder aggressive voice being the voice of the shooter, and the softer voice being the person who screamed and who was killed. If you heard that audio of TM’s voice from that video on his cell phone (where he was enjoying seeing a homeless man getting the chit beat out of him and narrating it) you would know that TM was the loud , deep aggressive voice that Surdyka heard, not Zimmerman who is soft spoken, which also means that it was Zimmerman screaming for help. Nope they didn’t ignore Surdyka, they just saw the defense take away her credibility. The states “own” witnesses on the voice recognition were really the newspapers (a newspaper who wanted gZ convictged and searched until they found some so called experts who would say what they wanted them to say. The state did not ignore those “witnesses”, the judge ruled that testimonyh could not be presented to the jury based on testimony from some REAL experts from the FBI who stated that there is no way from that clip of that phone cal that there was enough of a sample to prove anything one way or the other. They did not ignore their own dna experts, they presented what they had to say, and AGAIN absense of evidence proves nothing. The grass stains, you’ve got to be kidding. It was in the police reports that GZ’s clothes were wet on the back of his jacket and his pants, consistent with being on his back. Also I saw a photo of TM’s pants with grass stains on the KNEES, you surely didn’t want the prosecution to point that out did you? I still think the prosecutors were extremely unprofessional and their tactics of withholding evidence and trying to keep the jury from seeomg who Tm really was were disgusting. Didn’t like those guys then, and still don’t. My point is that they had to resort to the tactics they used because they had absolutely no evidence whatsoever to present.

          • Jayne Surdyka saw them in grass the entire time.She did an interview with Anderson Cooper and Katie Couric and they asked her questions the initial investigators never thought to ask. Surdyka was looking when the gun went off and she saw Zimmerman on top and she never saw the person on the bottom GET UP. She is not the only one that never saw him get up but neither did Mora or Manalo. So Surdyka’s testimony is exactly in line with other witnesses that were looking when or immediately after the shot was fired. Trayvon lying face down does not mean Zimmerman had to be on the bottom, his lying face down could also mean he was turned over which would explain the ackward position of his feet in relationship to his hips. The only other way he could end up in the position is if he was standing upright and fell face down but then that would mean he was stand up and was completely off of Zimmerman wouldn’t it? But that’s neither here nor the FACT IS that what Zimmerman said happened is a damned lie because there is no way Surdyka, Manalo and Mora are looking about when the gun went off and they don’t see one important thing ZIMMERMAN GET HIS ASS UP OFF THE GROUND AND GET ON TOP OFMARTIN. There is no way in hell 3 people overlooked seeing him do that! The reason they didn’t see Zimmerman get up IS BECAUSE HE WAS ALREADY IN A DOMINANT POSITION. That explains why Martin is full of grass, why the shot was perfect and why no one ever saw Trayvon move after the gun was fired. Unless your silly butt is willing to discuss how no one saw Zimmerman get up which is a MUST if his story is true then don’t address me. Surdyka saw and heard very well, she was the first to describe Zimmerman as Hispanic looking THAT’S HOW WELL SHE SAW THRU HER WINDOW.

            • Jayne Surdyka’s testimony was scattered, she was confused. She said she heard 3 shots, In her original statement to police (where you are getting that she identified GZ as Hispanic) she said she doesn’t remember if she walked away from the window when she went to the phone to call 911, but “thinks” she was watching the entire time. She also stated that it was about 10 minutes after she heard the voices, that the altercation happened, which is impossible, since we know from the timeline the entire confrontation lasted less than 2 minutes. Also she had told the 911 operator that she could open the window (the window that she testified she had already opened). She was just too rattled and then later confused by the the media stories. She was haunted by the pleas for help which she mistakenly attributed to TM, when in fact it was GZ screaming for help.

              Manolo looked out from her townhouse and saw one shadowy figure “on top of the other.” The one on top was “just hitting down.” (That would have had to be TM, per John Good’s testimony and all the evidence of injuries to GZ and none to TM)
              Although she could not distinguish either of the combatants that evening, she convinced herself that Zimmerman had been the aggressor because “the top was bigger than the bottom.”
              Manalo admitted to having concluded that Zimmerman was the taller of the two men because of the little kid pictures she had seen of Martin. She assumed that GZ was the agressor because the shawdowy figure who was on top punching down appeared to be the larger of the two. A 6 foot plus skinny teenager in baggy clothes would apper r much much larger than a 5-6 stocky (he wasn’t that much overweight at the time) guy, especially in the dark from that distance.
              And you are right NONE of the witnesses saw GZ crawl out from under TM and get on top because they weren’t looking until AFTER he did that. He gave his statement as to what happened before he even knew that there were any witnesses, and there is nothing in any of the eye witness reports that contradicts his statement, and Goods testimony that he saw TM on top of GZ reinforces GZ’s story.
              Also the screaming, GZ told the first officer on the scene that he had been screaming for help , and also stated the same when he was interrogated by police BEFORE he had any way of knowing that anybody heard the screams, and TM had a much deeper voice that GZ, as evident on a video he narrated (of 2 homeless men getting beating another ) on a cell phone video. Of course that evidence was not admitted in court, nor was a post on TM’s , nor was a post on TM’s memorial page by a girl stating “I loved his DEEP voice”.

            • Apparently you have reading comprehension problems. Surdyka was clearly looking WHEN THE SHOT RANG OUT, that was her testimony. There would no reason whatsoever for Don West to spend 30 minutes trying to explain the fact that Trayvon was found on his stomach EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT THE WOMAN SAID SHE WAS LOOKING WHEN THE SHOT WENT OFF. You are not that damned dumb, you’re just playing dumb on the internet. Don West’s entire angle was to try to make the jury believe the woman didn’t see what she said she saw because it was raining. There was no reason at all to discredit Surdyka if she saw NOTHING. Don West would have been finished with her in 2 minutes if her only testimony was that she heard 3 shots and looked out of the window after the shot rang out. She was looking out the window BASED UPON THE ARGUING so she was hyper-focused on her window. There is no way in hell she was that focused and coincidentally looked away when the shot was fired. She told the dispatcher on the phone IN REAL TIME that she had seen two men wrestling in the grass, the same thing Good said and he was up close. So she saw VERY WELL. And even if we want to take your ignorant assumption instead of the truth of what she said in three different interviews then that still does not explain how IMMEDIATELY after the shot was fired he was already on top of Martin! Martin was supposed to get up and back up (ALL THE WAY INTO THE GRASS BECAUSE REMEMBER HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY BASHING ZIMMERMAN’S HEAD ON THE SIDEWALK WHEN THE SHOT WAS FIRED) then Zimmerman would have to get up from a SUPINE position flat on his back per his story and go forward and then get on top of Martin after Martin fell. So not only did three people hyper-focused on their window no see Zimmerman get up, THEY DIDN’T SEE MARTIN GET UP EITHER! They didn’t see Martin back up into the grass where his body was found which was not anywhere close to the sidewalk and then see Zimmerman rise from a supine position with his head on or near the sidewalk and THEN GO FORWARD towards Martin who had fallen back into the grass. Nobody saw that not because 3 people became blind as a bat all of a sudden but BECAUSE IT DIDN’T HAPPEN THAT WAY. Trayvon Martin was shot IN THE GRASS WHERE HIS BODY WAS FOUND SO RIGHT BEFORE HE WAS SHOT HE WAS NOT POUNDING ZIMMERMAN’S HEAD ON ANYTHING, NOR WAS HE ON TOP OF ZIMMERMAN. Bernie de la Rionda asked Dr. DiMaio if he had gotten a statement from Jayne Surdyka who says she saw Zimmerman on Martin so the sorry ass state prosecutors, just like Don West KNEW EXACTLY WHAT SURDYKA TESTIFIED TO. The state had no interest in winning this case that’s why you’re silly ass is not aware of the facts. They were not fully brought out at the trial and even if they were Trayvon is just a black kid so all the facts about his death don’t have to make sense to your creepy ass cracker ass to begin with. That’s a fact!

            • I’m going by Surdyka’s original statement to police when she said she may have walked away from the window when she went to get the phone to call 911 but she “thinks” that she was watching thw ehole time, obviously she wasn’t. Both Surdyka and Manola’s testimonies in the trial were influnced by the media coverage of the incident, not by what they actually saw, they were both too far away to see much. Good was right there, he opened the door and stepped out and talked to them.

            • Jayne Surdyka said that night she saw them wrestling in the grass. She said that on the 911 call SO THE WOMAN COULD SEE VERY WELL. She said she saw them wrestling in the grass and guess where Trayvon’s body was found? IN THE GRASS! So in real time she saw them tussling so let’s just establish that Don West was simply trying to spin Zimmerman out of a murder conviction by challenging how well that woman could see. Secondly YOU CANNOT DISCOUNT HER SAYING SHE SAW HIM ON TOP BECAUSE TWO OTHER PEOPLE SAW THE SAME THING! The only person whose testimony is at odds with the rest of the witnesses in terms of who was on top WAS JOHN GOOD!! John Good’s testimony should have been discounted BECAUSE it was so at odds with what others saw the least of which was the fact that right before the shot was fired they were clearly and wholly in grass when Good says they were on the sidewalk THEY WERE NOT! Jayne Surdyka, Selma Mora and Jeanee Manalo did not all happen to look out of their window or door so late that they just happened to see Zimmerman on top. Surdyka was looking when the shot was fired that’s why her called reached 911 before John Good’s did. As for her interview with Anderson Cooper she didn’t change anything. SHE WAS SIMPLY ASKED QUESTIONS THAT NO ONE ELSE HAD ASKED HER. The same thing happened to John Good, no one had asked him before BDLR asked him if he heard any loud sounds like one person was smacking the other.

            • I’m going by what she said on the 911 call and her interview with police. Yes she saw them on the ground, but she couldn’t have seen who was on top when the gun went off and again if GZ had been on top when the gun went off TM would not have been lying face down, makes no sense whatsoever. I’ve already gone over Manolos testimony on how she made her determination that GZ was on top because she thought he was the larger person based on the picture of GZ as an itsy bitsy kid. She couldn’t see much from her vantage part, the other person didn’t see anything until after the shot. Good’s testimony does not contract GZ’s story in any way. He saw them move from the grass to the sidewalk, he just didn’t happen to see the when GZ sgruggled to get off the sidewalk which was during the seconds between when Good went inside to call 911 and the shot was fired. You have to put all of the evidence and testimony together and look at the big picture instead of trying to find things that support your “theory”. I didn’t have a theory. I believed the media reports at first, until I found out that the gunshot did not occur immediately after 911 told GZ “we don’t need you to d that” and that he hd remained on the phone with them for almost 2 more minutes after that, and before Rachel put TM way back at the other end of the sidewalk by the apt where he was staying a couple of minutes before he was BACK at the T.

            • SHE DID SEE WHO WAS ON TOP SHE WAS ON THE PHONE TELLING DISPATCH THAT PERSON WAS WALKING TOWARDS HER!! If she could see two people wrestling and one person get up THEN SHE WOULD HAVE SEEN TWO PEOPLE GET UP!! Zimmerman’s story by necessity REQUIRES TWO PEOPLE TO GET UP!!! Trayvon could not have made it to where he died and end up in that awkard position without getting up! Zimmerman could not have then came to stand over Trayvon’s body without first standing up! Both Surdyka and Mora would have reported seeing both of those occurences but they didn’t see them BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED THAT WAY. Trayvon was wholly in the grass when he was shot and his body never moved from that spot so right before he was shot HE WAS NOT ATTACKING ZIMMERAN ON THE SIDEWALK. Therefore Zimmerman killed Martin when they were in the grass. Why? Because that was his intent!

              As for John Good you’re a damn lie that he “didn’t notice” Zimmerman went back to the grass. He said the last thing he saw was the two of them on concrete so it wasn’t an issue of him not noticing he said he was no longer looking period. Well Trayvon’s body was not found on the sidewalk, it was in the grass and right after Good closed his door the shot rang out that’s per Good and Bahadoor’s testimony. So we know it’s IMPOSSIBLE that Good saw them on the sidewalk because neither Zimmerman nor Martin could have made it that far into the grass by the time Good closed his door. Therefore what Good says he saw is IMPOSSIBLE based upon where the body was found. John Good is a liar because it is not possible that he was that close, closer than Surdyka yet unlike her he didn’t correctly place their location in the grass. They had to have been in the grass when Good looked outside the first time and he lied about the sidewalk beating BECAUSE HE HEARD ZIMMERMAN SAY THAT. But Good got the direction of what he supposedly saw all the wrong so he never saw what he claims he saw in the first place. He saw two people in the grass just like Surdyka, Mora, Bahodoor and Manalo.

            • HUH? How does Zimmerman’s story require two people to get up? He stated that the gun went off and he managed to get out from under TM and then got on top of him to make sure he didn’t have any weapons, THEN he stood up. He never said that TM got up. All of the people you mentioned saw just exactly what GZ said happened AFTER the shot went off. Nothing that any of them have to say about that contradicts his story.

              TM fell on top of GZ after he was shot, GZ got out from under him. There is no dispute about where the body was found. AGAIN if GZ had been on top before the shot was fired TM’s body would have been face up. You make no sense

              You’re right TM was not shot while they were on the sidewalk, (and BTW they weren’t both on the sidewlak, TZ’s head was on the sidewalk), he manage to struggle far enough to get his head off the sidewalk, which had to have happened right after Good closed the door and went inside to call 911 which he would not have had the opportunity to see.

              You have to understand that all of these witnesses gave statements to the police before they knew GZ’s story, and that GZ told his story to the police w/o the benefit of knowing what the witnesses saw or what they were going to testify to. I find it impossible to believe that Good and Zimmerman could have made up the same story about the sidewalk. . They did not know each other.

              Nobody has disputed that they were on the grass when the shot went off.


            • We’re back to the sidewalk srgument again are we? Nobody ever said that TM was shot while they were on the sidewalk. They were never both on the sidewalk, GZ’s head was on it, and he struggled and got it off, that’s when his jacket came open and Tm saw the gun and went for it. He tried to grab it but GZ got it first , since nobody saw that part of the altercation , we don’t know how much they moved before the gun went off but the trajectory of the bullet and the powder marks on the shirts prove that TM was on top of GZ when the shot was fired.


            • SMH
              You really need to get back on your meds.

              Even if Good or hsi GF heard GZ tell the police that he shot in self defense that still deosn’t explain how JG and GZ both came up with the story about the sidewalk.

            • That was her testimony and that is what she said on Anderson Cooper BUT BUT BUT that is not what she said in the orlginal police interview, she said she may have walked away from the window to make the 911 call but that she “thinks” that she was watching the whole time. She is not rational. She made a determination that the deeper voice (more agressive ) was the “grown man” and the other voice was the “boy”. She was wrong about that from the beginning. TM had a much much deeper voice than GZ. I just listened to the interview on CNN and it is clear that she had made up her mind that it was the younger person screaming when she had absolutely nothing whatsoever to base that opinion on. Anyone who goes on nationwide tv cannot say that they have paid no attention to the media stories because anyone not paying attention to the media would not be part of their coverage. The coverage from the beginning was EXTREMELY biased, and her interview added to that biased coverage.

            • Again Surdyka was not biased. She reported only on what she saw and heard. At first she didn’t want to be involved at all which is why she appeared on Anderson Cooper in shadows. The only person that was biased was John Good who saw Travyon was black AFTER THE FACT and then said he was on top of Zimmerman. Jayne Surdyka saw “TWO PEOPLE WRESTLING IN THE GRASS” so that means before the shot was fired she saw what was happening. I do not believe that she coincidentally looked away to call police when the shot was fired. She even saw Zimmerman when he stood up so she was looking outside when he was over Trayvon’s body BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER THE SHOT. If she was not looking BEFORE the shot she would not have said on the 911 call in real time that she saw two men wrestling in the grass. Even if she took her eyes off the action to call 911 that still means she should have looked back in time to see either Martin standing up and backing away or Zimmerman getting up and getting on Martin. It is not possible that she was looking at them wrestling and then took her eyes of the action long enough to miss THREE IMPORTANT EVENTS and then look back just in time to see Zimmerman on Martin only. You are just being a stupid ass Zimmerman fan at this point because it’s huge coincidence that Surdyka would miss THREE IMPORANT EVENTS and then by astronomical odds just look back outside at the same time Mora looked outside since Mora also looked out and saw Zimmerman on Martin. No person interested in the truth would accept those types of odds. The fact that Mora and Surdyka saw the same thing at the same time means what they say was ACCURATE. That “thing” is that simultaneous or within a few heartbeats of that gun being fired Zimmerman was already on top of Martin in the grass. THAT MEANS THAT THE ENTIRE SCENARIO HE PAINTED ABOUT SHOOTING TRAYVON WHILE HE WAS LYING ON HIS BACK AND BEING STRADDLED BY MARTIN BY THE SIDEWALK IS A LIE.

            • Surdyka formed an opinoion the night of the incident that the person with the deep voice was the agressor and the person crying for help was the other person and she was right. She made the mistaken assumption that the person who died was the person crying for help based on the voices she heard, she assumed that the deep voice was that of the “grown man” but she was wrong. GZ does not have a deep voice, TM did. She “broke her silence” on Anderson Cooper because she believed that and the media was campaigning against GZ and she bought into all of that. She didn’t see everything, she was too far away, and even if she glanced away for only a few seconds that would have been enough time for her to have missed what happened at the point the shot was fired. She didn’t mean to be biased but she was bombarded by the media stories. She was also very confused, again I mention that she said she heard the voices about 10 minutes before the shot, which is impossible unless she heard some other 2 people several minutes before either GZ or TM were there. OF COURSE it is possible for someone to miss something in just a mater of seconds. Yes she saw something before the shot and she saw something after the shot, but she missed a few seconds. Haven’t you ever been interrupted by a phone call while watching TV and missed something important to the plot of the show? She even sad that she may have walked away from the window to get the phone to call 911.

              As for John Good being biased? Why would he be biased? He stated on the 911 call that the guy lying on the grass was black, so what , during the struggle he couldn’t tell because of the hoodie? Are you saying that because Good happens to be white that he’d try to make it look like the Hispanic guy was the one being assaulted because he’s racist? That is absurd. He was just reporting what he saw, and he saw TM on top of GZ. He said the person who had been on top was the person who was lying on the ground after the shot. That is what he saw. Would you have him lie and say it was the other way around just to prove he’s not racist?

              Mora did see exactly what Surdyka saw AFTER and only AFTER the shot, GZ on top of TM. That is all she saw, she didn’t see anything that happened before that.

              Manola’s testimony is almost exactly the same as Goods, she the LARGER person on top punching downward (and assumed based on pictures she saw on TV that the larger person was GZ when in fact there is no way GZ would have looked larger than TM in the dark the way they were dressed with TM being so much taller than GZ.

              AND AGAIN. If GZ had been on top when the shot was fired, TM’s body would have been face up. There is no getting around that. You say nobody saw GZ get up and get on top, but then you have to agree that nobody saw TM stand up either, and that is the only way GZ could have shot him w/o being underneath him and have his body fall face down, and even then I would imagine it would have fallen back instead of forward, or he would have fallen to his knees. If Surdyka had been watching the whole thing w/o glancing away , she would have seen TM stand up if that is what happened, but it isn’t.

              You so desparately want to believe that GZ is a racist who killed TM just because he was black, that you are even making John Good out to be a racist who purjered himself because he wanted the racist white guy to get off? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

            • All Jayne Surdyka needed to see is exactly what she saw and that is the person who survived the incident was on top of the dead person when the gun went off. Trayvon was on his stomach because Zimmerman WHO ADMITTED MANIPULATING A DEAD BODY, flipped him over. You can tell he was flipped over for two reason 1. The ackward position of his body meaning that his feet and hips are odd angles from each other. 2. Mora saw Martin’s leg move. I believe she saw his leg move because his body was moved.Trayvon would not have moved his own feet into that contorted position. If Trayvon had moved on his own after being shot he would have likely have balled up into some sort of fetal position but it is clear that once Trayvon was shot he was pretty much dead. His heart was beating but for all intents in purposes he was dead and he would NOT have contorted his own body into that position. Because I believe Mora when she says she saw Martin’s leg move and Martin’s leg were contorted in such a way that a dead person would not move his own feet AND ZIMMERMAN WAS OVER MARTIN WHEN SHE SAW HIS LEG MOVE I am 100% positive that Mora witnessed Martin being flipped over. Strangely enough, Zimmerman’s blood is an odd location on Martin which also points to his body having been manipulated. The only thing that cannot be explained is the FACT that Trayvon’s body was wholly in grass simultaneous with that gun going off and he did not get up from the sidewalk and move to the grass. It is not possible that not one, not two but three people failed to notice that Martin and Zimmerman both moved from one location to another. As for Manalo, she was correct by saying the larger man was on top. Zimmerman was OBVIOUSLY MUST LARGER THAN MARTIN WHO WAS NICKNAMED SLIM WHILE ZIMMERMAN’S MEDICAL RECORDS LISTED HIM AS OBESE. In terms of girth every single person that looked out there noticed immediately that Trayvon was a BOY. Further, they were on the ground so Trayvon’s height advantage means ZERO to people who are comparing the size of the two figures they were looking at and on the ground Zimmerman looked and actually was much larger than Trayvon Martin. Jeanee Manalo saw George Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin which is also what Jayne Surdyka and Selma Mora saw. John Good lied for Zimmerman because he is a white man that thinks just like your dumb ass. When there is an issue between a black teen and a half white NHW guy who is telling the police he killed the black guy in self-defense because he was attacked and the black guy didn’t belong there and the neighborhood had been robbed YOU WOULD SAY THE BLACK GUY WAS IN THE WRONG AS WELL. John Good heard Zimmerman’s story, his girlfriend Amanda confirmed that they heard Zimmerman telling police he shot Martin in self-defense so it was nothing for Good, who I’m sure really believed Martin was a burglar simply because he was black just like Zimmerman, to think he was doing the right thing by trying to corroborate parts of Zimmerman’s story that he heard. And we know that’s exactly what Good was doing because in the beginning HE LIED HIS ASS OFF. He knows damn well he never saw anyone reigning down blows MMA style so why did he say that in the beginning? BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT HE HEARD ZIMMERMAN SAYING SO HE TRIED TO CORRORBORATE. I believe as more facts came out and it was discovered that Martin lived in the area and had Skittles and tea Good figured he needed to come clean just in case Zimmerman went down. He was not trying to ride that sinking ship with Zimmerman so he came back and told the truth, slightly. The part he left out is that it was IMPOSSIBLE that he looked into darkness and saw skin color. Good only saw skin color after the light shined on Martin and you could tell he was just then realizing his race. Both parties were covered and I know he didn’t see race because he said he didn’t know if Martin was wearing his hoodie or not. So what part of Trayvon Martin could Good have seen unless Trayvon had that hoodie down? NO PART OF HIM PERIOD. The only way he could have seen Trayvon’s race is if Trayvon had that hoodie down and then he could see Trayvon’s head but if he does not know if Trayvon had that hoodie up or down then there was no part of Trayvon he could see based upon how he described their bodies positioned. He described Trayvon as being visible from the back and then the side and in neither position was Trayvon’s face visible to him. He was also asked if he saw their hands and he said no. So if he didn’t see Trayvon’s hands and he didn’t see Trayvon’s face to the point that he didn’t know if his hoodie was up or down what part of him did he see? No one ever bothered to ask that question. Further, if he saw Trayvon on Zimmerman for that brief moment an Trayvon was not beating up Zimmerman as Good acknowledged, then why would Zimmerman be screaming for help? He was not being hurt so why was he screaming? Zimmerman was NOT screaming and Good didn’t think it was the person that lived who screamed either because on the call he said “the guy that was screaming oh my God.” When he was asked if the person was still screaming he said, “he looks dead.” So on that call Good was not under the impression that the dead person was not the one screaming. Therefore, he made up his mind that it was Zimmerman screaming AFTER THE FACT. After what fact? After the fact that the dead person was black and the living witness was alive and saying he was attacked by a black kid that tried to kill him. You are the same type of ignorant ass white person as John Good and if you would have been in the same situation you would do your best to help the NHW because you would ASSUME that the black person MUST have been up to no good. That’s how your cracker brain is wired and Zimmerman knew that HE MADE UP HIS STORY FOR IGNORANT ASS WHITE PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU. That is why mostly ignorant ass white people believe him.

            • GZ “larger” than TM? Heavier yes? GZ’s weight would have ben a disadvantage in a fight with someone slimmer and fitter. As far as appearance TM would have APPEARED to the witnesses to be much larger than GZ because he was so much taller, and with the clothes he was wearing you could not tell he was skinny.

              I am not going to review all of the testimony, but the way I remember it is most people said they saw 2 people, or 2 men , I don’t recall anybody saying that one was a “boy” other than the screams that they heard sounded like a child, and of course we know that TM didn’t sound like any child.

              And AGAIN …… duh you keep repeating the same stuff over and over after I have already disproved your statements. All of those people you mentioned seeing GZ on top of TM saw exactly what GZ said happened AFTER the shot. None of them said anything that is not consistent with TM’s story except Surdyka who said she heard 3 shots, and that sh’d heard vocies 10 minutes before the shots, when we know that none of this had even started 10 minutes earlier. The woman was confused and really too far away to see anything except figures until GZ came closer toward her and was in the light

              AS for John Good, he did not hear anything that GZ was saying about self defense. He gave his statement the same night of the incident, and yes he did notice that TM was black after he saw him lying on the grass dead. That is certainly not proof that JG was a racist who believed that TM was a burglar (of course he would have ben right if that is what he believed but he had no way of knowing ), nor that he lied for GZ. That is absurd. He did not corroborate his story with GZ because he had no way of knowing what GZ’s story was when he gave his statement to police the night of the incident.

              You are the racist for believing that just because a person is white they are going to side with the white-hispanic guy.

              I’m not able to follow your whole tirade on how JG knew TM was black, the hoodie up or down? All that stuff you are rambling about. (You are really rambling, are you off your meds?_ On the 911 call he told the dispatcher that there was a black guy lying in the grass and he believed he was dead. What difference does it make when he noticed TM was black. He initially called 911 to get help because he saw someone being beaten and before he could make his call the shot went off. He went upstairs and told the 911 operator what he saw. He gave statements to the police of what he saw.

              Your racist tirade is interesting in that you are calling me a racist when you know nothing about me other than I believe the Hispanic guy because there is no evidence to prove his is not telling the truth. You don’t want evidence, you just want the “White” hispanic to be a racist, you want JOhn Good to be a racist and you want me to be a racist. Oh yeah I didn’t vote for Obama so I guess that proves it . LOL

            • grinz is still insisting that Trayvon was 6 foot plus? and that Georgie was not overweight? The autopsy report shows that Trayvon was 5′ 11″ and 158 lbs. The PA who examined Georgie the NEXT DAY said he was 5’71/2″ and 204 lbs., calling him obese. SIGH! How many times do the FACTS have to be reported (see previous conversations re this on this site) before grinz gets it?

              And, do you remember Georgie saying he had to be careful not to shoot his own hand? That would fit with him holding Trayvon’s shirt with his left hand ( in one of those police restraint holds he had trained on) and shooting him with his right.

              And the video from the defense portrayed Trayvon (falsely) hitting Georgie with his left hand, rather than his dominant right hand.

            • They don’t care about facts. All they know is a black kid died and Obama said his kid would look like Trayvon and that’s a good enough reason for him to die. Trayvon did kid type things with OTHER KIDS he had no interest in fighting a grown man which is why he fled from him and called him creepy. Their entire thought process about Trayvon just proves they are white people that know nothing about black people at all. Black kids do not view someone as creepy and then go to investigate them. That is something white people do in horror movies. Black teens DO NOT SEEK CONFRONTATIONS WITH NON BLACK PEOPLE WHO BEHAVED LIKE GZ BECAUSE THEIR FIRST THOUGHT IS THAT THEY COULD BE LAW ENFORCEMENT. At any rate Trayvon attempted to flee Zimmerman and Zimmerman exited his truck at 7:11 and Trayvon was dead at 7:16 yet it was Travyon that sought out Zimmerman. That only makes sense to other creepy ass crackers and that’s who Zimmerman knew he would attract when he told that bogus ass story.

            • At 7:11 when GZ was exiting his truck , TM was ALREADY back by the apt where he was staying 100 yards from the T. That is per Rachel’s testimony that he told her that before their call got disconnected and she called back, Her phone disconnected at about the same time GZ was getting out of his Truck. You can’t answer WHY TM was back at the T after already reaching his destination. You don’t like the FACTS. The problem that many of us have with Obama saying what he said is that he is taking sides based solely on RACE w/o knowing any of the facts. Obama inserting himself into this thing angered me because it added to the racial tensions in this country (this from an man who was going to bring us togethe) but it had no bearing on my opinion of what happened as the evidence and eye witness reports and the timeline are all consistant with GZ’s story. As I have mentioned before , at first , when the story broke, by the way the media tried to slant it, I believed the narrative UNTIL I started looking at the actual facts, the 911 calls, the witness statements, the timeline etc, and GZ’ story is the only explanation for what happened that EVEN makes sense. His story cannot be disproved, therefore even if you don’t believe him you still have to go by the proof beyond a REASONABLE doubt. There was WAY more reasonable doubt t than proof (actually0 proof) if ou go by the trial and not the media propaganda.

            • bottom line TM was much taller than GZ. I know a lot of people who are the size GZ was at the time 205 is too heavy for a 5/6 or 7 body but if you look at pictures of GZ then he didn’t look that big. Anyone seeing the two of them in the dark would have thought TM was the larger person.

              I don’t recall anything about GZ saying he was bein careful not to shoot his own hand. But even if he did the theory of him pulling on TM’s shirt as a reason for the bullet hole to appear as it did still doesn’t make sense.

              As for right hand or left hand, it doesn’t really matter which hand TM used to sucker punch GZ and break his nose, although it would account for the bruise on a knuckle on his left hand. I don’t know much about fighting, but I believe fighters punch with both hands. Have you ever heard of a left hook?

            • Not a soul out there commented on their heights because they saw them on the ground where its OBVIOUS THE BIGGER PERSON WOULD BE THE OBESE GROWN MAN. Trayvon Martin was tall and thin as a rail and Zimmerman was stout so if we saw them on the ground we would immediately identify Zimmerman as the bigger person.

            • The taller guy always looks bigger from a distance, laying down or standing up , doesn’t matter/ Ever watched a football game?

  27. Let me remind you what Mark Garagos, a defense attorney said during the trial. A lucky guess, huh?
    The strangest criticism yet about the prosecution in the George Zimmerman case?

    “I think they’re throwing the case,” attorney Mark Geragos announced Tuesday night on Anderson Cooper’s CNN show, “Self-Defense or Murder?” The discussion on that program, which airs at 10 weeknights, is fascinating. This special Cooper series is running for just the duration of the trial, but it certainly is one of the strongest programs in cable news these days.

    Fellow analyst Jeffrey Toobin called Geragos’ throw-the-case comment “absurd.”

    But Geragos had ranted about the performance of Dr. Valerie Rao, a medical examiner for the prosecution. “This woman is abysmal,” Geragos said. “She’s like the worst defense expert normally that you would get, and somehow the prosecution thinks this is helpful?”

    Geragos also ripped the way prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda questioned Chris Serino, the lead detective in the Zimmerman case. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin.

    • So? There were all kinds of pundits on all the networks expressing opinions on how the case was going, Just because the case wasn’t going well doesn’t mean the prosecution was “throwing the case”. this Geragos guy was just one of the few pundits who had sense enough to see that the prosecution was loosing the case.

  28. The strangest criticism yet about the prosecution in the George Zimmerman case?

    “I think they’re throwing the case,” attorney Mark Geragos announced Tuesday night on Anderson Cooper’s CNN show, “Self-Defense or Murder?” The discussion on that program, which airs at 10 weeknights, is fascinating. This special Cooper series is running for just the duration of the trial, but it certainly is one of the strongest programs in cable news these days.

    Fellow analyst Jeffrey Toobin called Geragos’ throw-the-case comment “absurd.”

    But Geragos had ranted about the performance of Dr. Valerie Rao, a medical examiner for the prosecution. “This woman is abysmal,” Geragos said. “She’s like the worst defense expert normally that you would get, and somehow the prosecution thinks this is helpful?”

    Geragos also ripped the way prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda questioned Chris Serino, the lead detective in the Zimmerman case. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin.

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