Yes, this posting should have gone up within a week of evidence dump #2 being released — I’m a little behind. I’ve yet to thoroughly review the jailhouse calls but I’m publishing this posting now to preface an upcoming posting. Thank you CommonSenseForChange for the assist — especially regarding Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee’!
All pages cited are from this document…
Page 29: Witness 2 said the shadows were running from left to right. W2 lives east of the path. So, the running motion she described is from south to north. Note — Gilbreath ambiguously mentioned shadows running as evidence during bond hearing 1. This witness statement is horrible for the defense and seems to coordinate well with DeeDee’s statement and this map…
Page 78: Zimmerman said he followed Trayvon. He doesn’t mention trying to obtain an address. Like the video reenactment, I speculate that during the trial there will be absolutely no admission of Zimmerman trying to do anything but get an address for the dispatcher.
Page 78: Osterman mentioned Zimmerman cried for help to 3 different neighbors and then Trayvon covered his mouth seconds before the shot was fired. I didn’t hear any breaks in the screams for help until after the shot was fired. I know this has been mentioned before — even during bond hearing 2 — but I had never seen evidence suggesting exactly when Zimmerman’s mouth was supposedly covered.
Page 79: Osterman stated he accompanied Zimmerman to the video reenactment because Zimmerman didn’t understand the process. I guess a near associates degree in criminal justice doesn’t teach you much these days, eh?
Page 79: The 5th and 6th paragraphs confuse me. Is that still a statement from Osterman?
In the 5th paragraph, a list of burglaries are cited. In the 6th paragraph, is Osterman saying Zimmerman never mentioned any burglaries or home invasions to him? If so, which one is it?
In the 6th paragraph, is Osterman saying Zimmerman never actively patrolled the neighborhood? Statements on pages 108, 109, and 111 would disagree. Which one is it?
Page 89: Like Manalo, the name of Zimmerman’s bro in law (Wilson) wasn’t redacted. There’s likely nothing of value there…I just made a note.
Page 95: Who is the community management point of contact? What beef did Zimmerman have with him/her?
Page 99: The 2nd paragraph is weird. Who interrupts to ask if the neighborhood watch was registered with the police? Whoever this witness is, they must be familiar with neighborhood watch programs and law enforcement.
Page 99: Zimmerman again (2nd time) says he followed Trayvon. He doesn’t mention trying to obtain an address. As mentioned above, I speculate that during the trial there will be absolutely no admission of Zimmerman trying to do anything but get an address for the dispatcher.
Page 106: Did Zimmerman really ask somebody why they were outside (smoking a cigarette)? That gets your ass kicked in a lot of neighborhoods. It would be interesting to know this person’s stature and/or ethnicity. The statement was taken from a female. The person Zimmerman questioned about being outside was a male. I’m guessing they were boyfriend/girlfriend? Regardless, per paragraph 6, it looks like the male didn’t want to divulge more info about the incident to the FBI. Balls of steel.
Page 110: The only other person besides Osterman and the individual on page 135 to say Zimmerman didn’t actively patrol the neighborhood. Statements on pages 108, 109, and 111 would disagree. Which one is it?
Note: Both individuals on page 110 and 135 serve the RTL HOA in some official capacity. Both make it clear nobody from Neighborhood Watch patrolled the community. That apparently isn’t true per 108, 109, and 111. Why are these two individuals insistent that nobody patrolled the neighborhood?
Page 113: Who did Zimmerman “stare” down? It would be interesting to know this person’s stature and/or ethnicity.
Page 118: Undoubtedly Joe Oliver. The female mentioned in paragraph 3 is…? Sondra?
Page 128: Undoubtedly Taaffe. Mostly black teens crossed through the open area? And, some of them smoked blunts? And, most ignored him while talking on their cellphones?
Trayvon was possibly smoking a cigar (per the 7/11 video, Trayvon seemingly got denied a cigar and possibly had the 3 guys seen after he leaves the store buy an extra one for him) and talking on his cellphone while walking through the open area near Taaffe’s. Coincidence that Taaffe would add random ass things about blunts/cellphones to his FBI statement?
Page 137: Zimmerman again (3rd time) says he followed Trayvon. He doesn’t mention trying to obtain an address. Like the video reenactment and as mentioned a few times above, I speculate that during the trial there will be absolutely no admission of Zimmerman trying to do anything but get an address for the dispatcher.
Page 141: Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee’ said he smacked her in the mouth. They got into an argument which escalated into a pushing match. Zimmerman kicked her dog in the stomach and the ex-fiancee’ moved out the next day. Though Shellie has already lied under oath, she mentioned Zimmerman didn’t show aggression (paraphrasing) of any type during their relationship. Did such aggression get “cured” before Shellie and he met?
Page 141: Zimmerman was caught by his ex-fiancee’ lying on the bed with his teenage neighbor playing with her baby. Has anybody spoken to the former teenage neighbor especially given Witness 9’s statement?
Page 141: Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee’ caught him stalking her at a new residence. The ex-fiancee’ called Zimmerman and asked him where he was, but he lied and said he was elsewhere. The ex-fiancee’ told Zimmerman that she saw him leaving her residence. Zimmerman asked if he could come talk to her about a sick grandmother. So, Zimmerman was lying and manipulating then — what stops him from doing so now?
Page 142: Zimmerman refused to leave his ex-fiancee’ new place of residence and asked if he could sleep on the couch. Zimmerman snatched her cell phone and put it in his pocket. The ex-fiancee’s dog bit Zimmerman on the face and she was able to retrieve her phone and call the police. Zimmerman ran before the police arrived. Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee’ filed an injunction against him on the advice of a responding officer. Did such aggression get “cured” before he met Shellie?
Page 143: Zimmerman turned off his mother’s electricity, locked the box to it and departed leaving his mother with no electricity. This was done because Zimmerman’s mother and ex-fiancee’ got into an argument. Did such aggression (against his mother!) get “cured” before he met Shellie?
Page 144: Zimmerman has a bad temper according to his ex-fiancee’. She thought this may have been a side effect of Zimmerman’s use of Accutane. In Zimmerman’s medical report the day after the shooting, the drug Vyvanse is mentioned to cause mood swings in Zimmerman. Was his bad temper and mood swings “cured” before he met Shellie?
Page 144: Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee’ says Zimmerman would exhibit “road rage” while driving. Did Zimmerman’s “road rage” get cured before he met Shellie?
Page 182 and 183: Officer Smith seems rather unprofessional. Those transmissions were sent via government supplied devices, right? Is he currently active, on leave, or terminated after these messages came to light?
Speaking of Officer Smith (and more to come within the next few days)…
Page 10: Sergeant McCoy notes a gun lying on the front seat of Officer Smith’s car.
Page 23: Officer Smith removes the gun from Zimmerman’s holster at the police station after Zimmerman went to the bathroom and possibly washed his hands (plus what else?).
Which statement is correct? Was Zimmerman’s gun already secured at the scene or was it secured at the police department?
Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.
ok. lol.. are you posting tweets or something?
When a new thread goes up I type follow so I get an email to confirm my subscription, and follow comments.
Hmm… Thanks. LOL
I have no clue what’s happening on the wordpress side.
I get notified by email every time someone makes a comment. By the time I get home there are about 50-100 emails from the different blogs I follow. View from LL2, Fred Leatherman, and of course I save the best for last BccList. Then I go through all of them, I usually check and post about 5 6 am central time then again after 4pm. I had to make folders in my email with all of your names just so I can sort and respond!
Thank you (again) for the kind words — it means a lot!
As for all the email notifications, if anybody gets annoyed, you can change your subscription settings at the bottom of any of the emails.
I only mention this because somebody emailed me recently wondering what the heck was going on. The crap load of emails is definitely a wordpress thing — meaning, not something I’ve purposely set-up.
Your welcome. : ^ ) I like the way it’s setup, it works for me.
I’m getting 50-100 just off of bcclist
Ok. Now I feel really, really silly. I also never scroll down via the web to receive email notification of replies or email notifications of new posts. I never use subscriptions either.
I’m getting a better understanding.
Its much easier to get email, ’cause you see the name post etc, you get the idea. You should try it !
After listening to his about Officer Smith, I can’t believe it, unprofessional is not the word. Allowing a suspect to carry the weapon into the station? Not bagging it. Allowing a suspect to wash his hands? By the way I have a 4 year degree in Criminal Justice.
As to GZ temper and drugs. Accutane is an acne medication that is used widely. It does has side effects, bowel, Gastrointestinal disorders, liver problems, birth defects, suicidal thoughts but no violence. Vyvanse like Addreall is used for ADHD side effects include hallucinations, anxiety, confusion and unusual behavior. I would think his striking at someone would be more ADAH behavior, loses temper easily, angers quickly.
I had an issue with the bathroom thing also. I wonder if the reason for the way his wallet wasn’t checked and the bathroom break had to do with the way SYG works. I may be completely wrong here, but if I remember correctly, you cannot even be arrested much less charged under SYG. Serino had Singleton make sure Zimmerman was not under arrest when he was questioned after Serino learned that it may be a case of self-defense.
I always thought the non-arrest was the thing that triggered national outrage.
Hello this is wisenupoet…
I have a 13 yr son with adhd and anger management issues or o.d.d (not tested by the school but an actual doctor when he was 3).. that was the first time he was kicked out of daycare…All his teachers from pre-k 3 to the first semester of 7th grade said the same thing”he lacks impulse control Hand positive social skills.. He like all of us has followed this case was
saddened and upset by gz claiming adhd has the culpret.. This excuse of I have adhd and I forgot to take my meds or the its not me its adhd excuse is an old excuse all kids with this disorder will try and use..
Speaking as a parent who has 1st hand knowledge of adderall and how it works on people who truly has adhd and other behavior problems.. adhd is always accompanied by another disorder ie: anxiety,opposition defense disorder, bipolar disorder and many more..
1st point is adderall only
helps with focus not impulse controlled or emotional out bursts… i wondered for years why my son keep getting suspended and wrote up because I give him his meds everyday before school.. It was only after I started researching and getting in support groups that I found out that that children with adhd tend to have a smaller pre-frontal cortex… for those that don’t know its a small part of the brain in the front..If you touch the middle of your forehead then you’ve located it.. This small but efficient part is what controls impulsively,empathy, anger,cause and effect,and socialization .. its the emotional part of the brain. If I had a dollar for how many times he has blamed a situation on someone or something else I would be warren buffet
rich.. Every summer from the time has in the 2nd grade I had to teach him a
Word dealing with his emotions..From Cause and effect,responsibility,empathy, rational behavior, social skills, stress management and more..
If this is not thought at an early age then as an adult they lack these skills..
Giving that most people with adhd have a super inflated awareness of self/ego..(heros complex)..My child wants to be a football player but hates getting dirty and going outside..he swears because he plays Xbox and street football that he will be the number one drafted pick.. I have to teach him to be realistic and limitations of ones skills.. The rumor of people with adhd not being smart is false.. He made straight A’s and B’s while getting suspended from school at least three times a month.. They can be controlling very good manipulators at times… If a parents don’t make them take responsible for there actions then they grow up thinking they can get away with irresponsible and criminal behavior.. With telling themselves they are always right and allowing little to no room to be corrected..They tend to become social misfits,criminals,and drug abusers.. GZ displays what can happen to a child when mommy or daddy always comes to the rescue and don’t teach responsibility for ones own actions… I do believe Gz mother was the disciplinarian in the family because she had to deal with the school and he probably was on punishment a lot..His father as we see now was the one who always bailed him out of trouble. This is why we see the conflict with his statements of apology, were he says sorry but never admits he did wrong or that its his fault.. His mother,the “abuser,controller,mean,always says no parent made him give empty apologies. While his father the good/nice/yes parent who could be manipulated probably told him its the adhd and the you are special,God never makes bad kids,you are a good son, God made you that way and only he knows his plans spoon fed those lines to him all his life.. This is why now we see GZ behaviour as it probably was from early childhood… Empty I’m sorry,no emotion saying, no cause ans effect,lake of responsibility taking, its always your fault never mind blame making, baby face with a child like voice creating ,pitting mommy and daddy against each other because I’m smarter than everyone else society manipulating, Late I’ll never have sex sexual masterbaiting, None female keeping,spouse controlling relationship frustrating, ADHD and other behavioral and emotional disorders I’m the only one God made like this empty lacking adult male child like mind facilitating ..
most adhd people have one or two friends or they try to make people like them by acting out.(We like to call it acting the fool).. This was displayed by him ranging his coworker while around a group of onlookers..”keep in mind they only act like this if it gets a few laughs or its an attention grabber.. Then they feel accepted by there peers and miss the signs of disapproval by that same group.. This is why he’s playing so hard to his”masses” while shunning o,Mara for not doing good enough.. They always take there frustrations out on those who are helping them while pandering to those that will do them harm..”There new found friends” If those friends turn on them and disapprove of them then they will do everything they can to win them back even embarrassing and talking down on those that help them ie: his old website for the people.. I’m sure as my son said he believes people really trust and like him cause they give him money.. Never letting it enter his mind that they might be using him for racial and political gains.. From the mouth of a 13yr adhd kid” He knows he did wrong but if he got away with hurting others and telling lies then he thinks he can now.. That’s why he said he sorry the second because he knows he wrong…
Wow, thank you for the comment and sharing your story! Based on what’s known, a lot of what you mentioned seems to make sense as it pertains to Zimmerman.
This is very insightful! Thank you.
I’ve said it before. I’ll say it again. Stop making guesses about GZ’s behavior being influenced by his meds. He’s on a benzo for anxiety/sleep issues and a mild stimulant for adult ADHD. So am I. Both of these kinds of meds can be abused and taken ‘recreationally.’ so they are highly stigmatized by the general public. However, when taken as prescribed they are no more likely to cause marked personaility deviation than a sugar rush from a package of Twinkies. IT AIN’T THE MEDS, OK?
Now, these meds do get prescribed to people who have different sorts of underlying disorders and to different degrees. Psychiatry is really at the stone knives and bearskins stage in terms of what it really knows about mental illnesses, and a lot of the designation (“anxiety” “depression”) are big catch-alls that quite different specific cases get tossed [sort of like “nose injury” 🙂 ].
So wisenupoet’s report about some common behaviors and traits associated with ADHD itself (not the meds used to treat it) COULD be revealing. Or not. As I said, I developed a kind of ADHD problem several years ago, for which I’m now on Ritalin, but I have none of the traits wisenupoet mentions. The thing is, I was in my late 40’s before I had any of these kinds of problems, and as a kid I had so much focus my friends would tease me about not be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Adult ADHD can be really different from childhood ADHD, OR it can be a continuation of same. Without knowing GZ full pysch history, we’re really not in a position to make even good guesses about how that could be a factor.
That said, I find wisenupoet’s post valuable as a possible explanation, but I do think this is the kind of thing where the bcclist community ought to be very careful, and maintain absolute clarity that this is JUST a possibility. There’s nothing wrong with speculation, as long as we make sure we separate those ideas that are mere conjecture from those based in solid physical evidence and valid deductive reasoning.
That’s true and my post was coming from the insight of a parent with a child with adhd.. also his input as well because he follows this blog when the Xbox is not call..GZ it was just a possibility if he indeed had adhd… nothing concrete as of yet..lol
P.s. I went to traffic court with my child who was ticketed and suspended for 3 days for throwing a dinner roll..got to love the Texas pampers to prison school pipeline… I told him to tell the judge he was not guilty and the kid told me well you better say it cause I can’t lie to a judge.. Even knew were to draw the line..
Like your post.
Bearskins and stone knives. Very good.
It’s a Star Trek allusion.
Allusion it is indeed.
You can’t get into the front seat of a police car from the back seat.
The back seat is jail, just with wheels.
You can’t open the doors from the inside and there’s a divider between the front and back seats to keep people in the back from being able to attack the people in the front.
Perhaps Smith should have placed Zimmerman’s gun and holster in the trunk instead of the front seat, but even in the front seat Zimmerman could not get to it from the back seat.
And Smith took the gun and holster from Zimmerman at the scene right after he handcuffed him. It’s in the very first piece of paperwork from Smith that we saw. Why are people still getting this wrong almost half a year later?
unitron, prisoner of WordPress.com
Without going back to look at the doc, just looking at what NLME wrote…
I think NLME is pointing out that on one page it says it was secured in the front seat of the vehicle and on another page it was secured at the station. I think he’s just asking which is the correct version.
Possibly T. Smith took the gun inside the holster from GZ at the scene and secured it then took the gun out to examine it at the station. I don’t know. Just taking a guess at why there’s differing reports.
It was secured, barring someone coming along with a sledgehammer and busting out the windows or windshield, in the front seat of the police car.
When they got to the station they took it out and secured it in the evidence lockup.
Exactly — thank you. I could definitely be missing something but page 23 threw up a red flag. The gun was stated to have been taken from Zimmerman’s waistband/holster in the interviewing room, cleared, and put into a gun box. No?
I just rechecked, and it does sound that way from what O’Steen writes there. I thought maybe he was placing events out of order, but it clearly seems to me that the first paragraph are events from the scene, and the second paragraph describes what happened at the station. Interesting.
SPD may have a demon computer like mine! Seriously, though, there is something wrong with the info on that report. WiilisNewton posted a link to someone’s analysis early on and I think it is worthy of review.
I don’t understand it fully (short attention span), but I noticed the analysis included timestamps and FedX packages that contained insight into what was supplemented.
Doesn’t Smith say in his statement from Data Dump #2 that he took Zimmerman’s gun from his waistband/holster in the interviewing room? Maybe I’m missing something.
Do you remember way back when the City of Sanford put the phone calls and some documents online for a while?
Among those documents was a 4 or 5 page PDF of preliminary police reports, and Smith’s write up of what he did was the next to the last page, just before something about someone logging the gun into evidence there at the police station (no doubt when Smith handed it over to them), and on that next to last page Smith mentions handcuffing Zimmerman at the scene and taking his gun and holster out of his waistband, and seeing the wet and the grass on his back, and hearing Zimmerman telling the paramedics about yelling for help.
You know what they call cops who decide “Oh, he’s a buddy” or “He’s an alright guy”, “I won’t bother to handcuff him” or “I’ll just wait ’til we get to the station to ask for his gun”?
They’re remembered as “Killed in the Line of Duty”.
I remember early on there was a LOT of news and commentary suggesting Zimmerman was given his gun back. Most of us in the public seemed to draw the conclusion that this meant Zimmerman still had his gun to be “free” to shoot again.
Maybe he was given his gun back, but only because of some technicality that would prevent LEO from apprehending it under SYG. I really don’t know. Maybe later SPD received clarification about the SYG and decided the gun could be taken as evidence. Again, I don’t know.
Early on there was a lot of misinformation being bandied about, either by people not in a position to find out the truth or people in a position to who couldn’t be bothered to take the extra time and trouble.
Probably the best example is the constant reference to Zimmerman’s call to the police as being a 911 call.
“Probably the best example is the constant reference to Zimmerman’s call to the police as being a 911 call.”
I am/was guilty of this. But, it wasn’t an oversight — meaning, typing out “non emergency call” simply annoyed me. As of late, I’ve just been saying “call to police.” I plan to edit anywhere that I stated “911 call” within the near~ish future.
Something else that bugs me.
The word murder has a specific legal meaning.
It also, outside of a courtroom, has a generally understood component of intent and malice.
Zimmerman has acknowledged shooting in self-defense.
He may yet be convicted of murder.
But he has never “confessed to murder”, therefore referring to him as a “confessed murderer” assumes something, a confession of murder, that does not exist.
If someone wishes to presume him guilty of something more or something other than he has acknowledged doing, that’s their prerogative, but since we know he has not come out and said “I committed murder” or “I murdered Martin”, the label “confessed murderer” is inaccurate even if the “murderer” part is not.
anger inhibits accurate analysis
May I at least call him the confessed killer? Cuz…that is accurate. Or presumed murderer? I agree that calling him a murderer is inaccurate at this time because he has not confessed to that nor has he been convicted of that. As much I find him to be reprehensible, it’s not right to characterize him that way at this time.
Just for the sake of discussion, let’s assume for a moment that someone you didn’t know and had never heard of popped up out of the dark and sucker punched someone about whom you cared and then got them on the ground and started hitting them and bouncing their head on the sidewalk and they in fear for their life drew and fired, not necessarily with the intent of ending the attacker’s life, but just to end the attack.
In those hypothetical circumstances, would you consider their acknowledgement of what happened a “confession”?
Would you refer to them with such an emotion-laden word as “killer”?
“George”, or “Zimmerman”, or “the shooter”, or “the acknowledged shooter” all make it clear who is being discussed, while allowing for the fact that we are discussing a situation and event, all of which we do not, and may never, know.
T. Smith – Who shot him?
George Zimmerman – I did.
Confessed, admitted, proclaimed, etc. Or as you say, acknowledged. So, yes, I would still use the word confessed in regards to the shooting/killing because it is correct. His shooting TM resulted in TM being killed, and GZ confessed/admitted/proclaimed/acknowledged he shot him, which also means he confessed/admitted/proclaimed/acknowledged killing TM.
Did he kill someone? Yes. You can call it an emotion-laden word all you want, but it’s still accurate. I don’t care about sugar-coating or even avoiding an “emotion-laden word.”
It is what it is. A rose by any other name would still be a rose. A killer by any other name would still be a killer.
You are assuming if someone I knew came to me with the same story as GZ’s that I’d somehow think or feel different. I came into this fairly neutral, but the more information that comes out, the less innocent I see GZ.
For what it’s worth, I don’t actually refer to him as the confessed killer.
Actually there is no need to preface his name with any adjectives at all. We all know who we are talking about.
The prefacing explanations are common and sensible in news articles, where the assumption may be that the readers don’t know who the person is.
I don’t disagree. I was just opening up a question for discussion in regards to acceptable descriptors. I don’t think I’ve personally ever called him anything other than GZ, George, Zimmerman, etc. We all know who he is and what he did. (By what he did, I mean shooting TM, which sadly resulted TM’s death.) I also don’t particularly care for the silly nicknames, but that’s other people’s decision to use those or not.
I’ll have to go back and look for the page, but it was in one of the interviews with a coworker…
What do you think of GZ telling his coworker he was mugged the night before? Did he really think he was being mugged, or was it just to garner sympathy? I thought “mugging” was attacking someone with the intention to rob.
I didn’t note the mugging comment but I’ll review the evidence dump again tomorrow. Saying Trayvon mugged him goes hand in hand with Zimmerman calling Trayvon the “suspect.”
Uhhh, check comment 5. LOL. Hey, what do you want from me, it’s 4:30a here…I can’t be bothered to reply in the correct place. 😛
I read that statement as well and I figured he was blatantly lieing as always, it seems like something was missing from her statement. I dont know why he felt compelled to lie like that, unless he is a compulsive liar to go along with him being a convenient liar. GZ seems to not live in reality most of the time. Wherever he lives he is the mayor, the fireman, police,Nw, etc. I don’t think he really lives on earth with us.
“Wherever he lives he is the mayor, the fireman, police,Nw, etc.”
Lol…ironic you mention GZ not living in reality. I just so happen to click on a link that was posted by someone here but not this particular thread, that was to Click Orlando…after reading several of the comments, I couldn’t help posting the following:
Listen up all you GZ supporters, financial or otherwise…may I remind you that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT!!! Please exercise it! You all have nothing logical, reasonable, or thoughtful to contribute. All you choose to do is demean the fact that a young man was killed UNJUSTLY, repeat unproven and ridiculous statements about his past. I don’t believe for one second you are all that RIDE OR DIE(well except for Odessagirl, time to stop riding GZ’s jock!) for GZ and believe in his innocense. Just using this case as an excuse to voice your personal bigotry. All you ‘Alices’, don’t follow GZ too far down the rabbit hole! I’m sure GZ’s convinced you ‘Wonderland’ is a nice place to visit…but this is reality. The prosecution will be wiping that cheezy ‘Cheshire Cat’ grin off his face soon enough!
It’s buried about halfway in the documents (around 127-147) with the FBI reports. It’s a recount of what Zimmerman told the coworker about the event the next day when he arrived at work. The coworker states GZ said he was mugged and not ok. This same coworker states GZ repeats the punching/head bashing. In addition, in the telling, the reason he gets out of his car was to update the police on TM’s whereabouts, and that he followed TM because it was late, raining, and there were a lot of break-ins. It also says GZ disconnected with police BEFORE getting out of the car. There’s also added details like TM saying “you don’t know who you’re messing with” and “now you fucked up.” (Funny, I think those things are words GZ would say to TM.)
Anyway, it’s all hearsay, but it’s an interesting recount of what GZ said to a coworker, so definitely do check it out! 🙂
Yes. On page 137.
page 137 – Zimmerman told his co-worker that he had been mugged the night before and that he had to shoot and kill Trayvon Martin.
I went to get the page number then by the time I posted I couldn’t for the life of me remember if it was 127, 137, or 147.
Your half-way remark means you’re a lucky guesser since it was found exactly there!
Unrelated, but any word on whether JKL plans to recuse himself?
Haven’t heard a thing.
I wonder if he’ll wait to see what happens with SZ’s case.
Me neither re JKL. He has something like 30 days. I hope he isn’t recused.
Lester won’t recuse himself because he’s done nothing wrong IMO. To do so would set a poor example to other judges. If he had denied bond the defense may have had grounds to argue at appeal given the nature of Florida law, but he didn’t.
To me the motion asking him to recuse himself was a publicity stunt aimed at placating GZ supporters specifically at the Conservative Treehouse site who blogged that O’mara wasn’t being tough enough for their tastes. In other words it was another fund raising attempt, just as the resurrection of GZs first website – the lunatic fringe has been provided a specific portal to donate to while keeping their notions of what “self defense” against unarmed black teenagers is all about- preservation of intolerance in as many forms as they feel socially excusable.
Regarding page 106, I wonder if the person didn’t want to divulge more info could be because he was a minority that knows “less is more” when offensive questions are asked, or if it was because he was a LEO that knew his rights, or if it was because he was just not in the mood?
What about witnesses 4, 7 and 10? Are these statement summaries able to be matched to know witnesses?
Prosecutors Released more names today including brandy green – she’s witness 7 and Cheryl brown 13 yo witness Austin browns mother. That still leaves W10 unknown, and both persons’ interviews unheard. Brown claims Serino told her his private feeling about the case (that is wasn’t self defense and to”read between the lines” regarding the racial profiling element. I wonder if that’s on tape?
After all this time waiting, I feel a little let down. Hopefully W10, will be someone who saw the whole thing.
Could W10 be Chad Green?
Re: smith and p23: what I noticed I’d that smith claims only he and EMTs spoke to GZ at the scene but mark osterman told FDLE he didn’t speak “in depth” to officers or GZ. Isn’t that essentially an admission that he DID speak to GZ, and a contradiction of what Smith is claiming?
Yes! We know T.Smith claiming only he and EMTs spoke with GZ is a false statement even if MO wasn’t there and hadn’t spoke with him considering we know GZ was speaking with JM after T.Smith arrived.
Who is JM again? and how do we know this? Sorry I missed that part somehow. But yeah, Smith seems line he’s the first guy a real outside investigation would want to examine. Too bad there never was one.
Jon M. W13, I believe. AKA “the asian male.” Basically, the guy who ran outside before cops came and was still there when T.Smith arrived and after. The one who called GZ’s wife for him.
Okay Jon, yeah w13… Well, technically maybe smith is saying no one spoke to GZ AFTER he was cuffed, but that whole aspect of smiths report has seemed weird to me too. He arrived on the scene to see two men and a body. I think I’d cuff them both and ask questions later. And of course if he left out w13, it seems possible he might have left out others as well. How did “detective” Smith determine W13 wasn’t an accomplice unless he allowed his bias in trusting GZ to prejudice him?
I don’t disagree with you here. I’ll leave my thoughts at T. Smith is questionable. But I don’t really like to point fingers at people until there are more facts, and in this case we don’t know too much regarding T. Smith.
Ah, but who is “no-one”?
W13 and at least one other were outside when Smith arrived. Report only mentions seeing GZ and someone on the ground. Highly unlikely he didn’t ask W13 who he is and what he’s doing there, but he won’t put that in the report if he doesn’t see it as relevant. Otherwise he’d have to start putting in when he coughed or popped a piece of chewing gum or scratched his nose.
Perhaps if GZ had been held by a few people, the report would say several people some of whom were holding his arms. At most. No details. But if a former deputy he knows, or someone identifying as an air marshal etc wanders over and says a few words? if it didn’t lead to a rescue attempt it probably doesn’t seem relevant.
I thought you all might be interested to know that GZ’s parents have launched their own website seeking financial help. Sheesh! http://robertandgladys.com/
Seriously? What the hell? These people have the biggest egos since Kanye West! Who do these people think they are?!
Osterman watch: looks like someone sitting next to frank taaffe and Robert jr at second bond hearing bears a great resemblance to mister ATM video dude.
Hat tip to papapi for spotting it.
in those close ups of zims face, the minor scratches have scabbed over already. How long does a scab take to form. And the one on his middle forhead looks like a distinct scratch….no punch can cause that, maybe a nail, but not Trayvons according to the DNA evidence. Same with the small spots on the end of his nose, no punch could do that.
As for the back of his head, even a slight knock causes a bump and a bruise. Not possible to have 2 small slits with no surrounding bruising or bulges. If you bang your head on something hard and flat you do not just get a small cut without bruising and trauma.
Those areas look like bad acne to me. I have seen bad acne look real inflamed and red, welpy looking. I would think that he has some type skin disease like rosacea, or something along that line( not for sure). I knew he had bad acne from looking at his pictures but the ex fiance confirmed he was taking acne medicine at one point in her statement, she actually thought it caused him behavioral issues as well.
I am sure it was him, they are all on the payroll. They are gonna cash in on that cow when he goes to prison.
Yep, that’s Osterman. He ended up accompanying GZ when he was released.
i want to vomit!
no mention of the person their son killed or what his family is going through.
So Mr Zimmerman thinks the truth will come out one day…..well,not if your son is the one telling it, how many versions has he told so far.
I really do feel for the family, if my child found himself in such a situation i would support him the best i could, but not even acknowleding the pain of the family whose child was killed, no mention of remorse for the dead child, blaming the media and everyone else without even acknowledging how your son contributed to the situation….dissapointing.
I felt sympathy at one point for the situation their son put them in, BUT, once his dad went on TV, behind a screen, acting like a loud mouth…sympathy GONE. They interjected themselves into a situation, and now they wanna be mad? Laughable. It’s all a ploy to garner pity. They already were retired. And no one FORCED them to move. That was their choice. These people are ridiculous.
its like they are angry at everyone including the victim. If it were my child, i would be there for him, but i would still reach out to the grieving family, and i would kick my sons arse if he behaved the way GZ has.
Suck it up, be accountable, admit you got it wrong. The worst thing about this is even if he was scared for his life at the end (which i doubt), he has not taken responsibility for any of it, not even in hindsight. And dissapointingly, his father, in his bid to get rich as well, has shown his arrogance and lack of empathy for anyone but himself and poor George.
In hindsight i would have just gone to target to get shellies tampax because now i know the kid wasn’t up to anything sinister. In hindsight, i would have waited for the police and pointed in the direction i last saw him, because i now know he was not looking in peoples windows. In hindsight, i would have told him “hey kid i’m neighbourhood watch, do you live in this community?”, because now i know he belonged here just as much as me. Not, in hindsight i have no regrets because God wanted me to do it.
On a completely unrelated topic, my son stole another kids lunch…it wasn’t his fault, the kid didn’t eat it quick enough. He had plenty of time to eat it. If he had just walked straight to the table instead of loitering by the paint boxes and talking to the little girl he has a crush on there wouldn’t be an issue. It’s his own fault, he knew my son was hungry.
In any case, all the other kids rushed to judgement and think he only ate the sandwich because it was white bread and not wholemeal.. We feel vilified, why just last week my son ate a multi-grain sandwhich so he in no way hates wholemeal.
So i had to buy an extra lunch for that kid who whined because “he was huuuuungry”. If anyone is feeling me and wants to send me a “what uuup” or a donation to the “he should have just ate the damn sandwich” fund please donate to my play-pal account xxxredactedxxx
Not donating to your PayPal account, but I will try the veal and remember to tip the waitress.
You’re here all week, right?
yes, but veal cost extra.
My nephew asked me a while back what I would do if it were my son, TRUE STORY: I told him that I would support my son as far as the charges but I would not go on television and add fire to the flame by making the family look like impoverished opportunists, that family made the Martins look like they only wanted money for ther sons death and that there was no way that they could be grieving for their on because he was black and he was not GZ. They acted as though GZ was the vicitim and the only victim. I heard that father call DeeDee a liar, and basically the same for Martins mother. They had an opportunity to shut up but they didn’t take it, instead they do what it seems like a pattern with them and that is to go and stroke Gz’s head and say that’s ok you are not bad, there are just bad people that get in your way. They could not stand in my face at this point. I do not respect them. I wouldn’t care who you are this is unacceptable for any family to sit up and condone people defaming a young dead teen. They had the ability with their media exposure to speak to their supporters and say to them that they feel bad about the situation and that they will let this be handle legally, apologize for Martins death and get out of the lime light, instead they went on interviews lieing and lieing talking about GZ’s fear and how it was Martins fault that he was minding his own business and got killed. These people are crying about their safety but can’t seem to shut up and their son keeps going on interviews. On the first jail call Shellie said she had not been home, well where could she have been seeing how they are prisoners in their home. These people are crap. I highly doubt anyone is bothering them, they seem like opportunists to me. GZ never held a job long so they most likely didnt have any money anyway. This is why SZ thought that money wold keep rolling and they would live the good life. GZ is shiesty and it seems it runs in the family.
Exactly! They had an opportunity to show compassion and chose instead to show their hatred, ignorance and greed.
Would it really have been so hard for them to say, “We believe our son acted in self-defense, but we are so, so sorry for the family of Trayvon Martin, and we hope that through the legal process both families questions can be answered and that we both will respect whatever outcome is decided.”
You can support your family member without tearing the other side down, but they went the low class route.
If ignorance and a love of money and fame weren’t behind their every move, I believe they could have defended their son and shown human compassion for the deceased Trayvon Martin and his parents.
I think they can’t even see the Martin’s pain because they are blinded by ignorant fears and hatred for people who are in the same boat as them financially. They can’t address the Martin’s because it would mean admitting their “connections” mean nothing and their name-dropping and sucking up means nothing.
To the rest of the world, it’s seen for what it is — taking a life of an unarmed teen who had a future for no apparent or reasonable reason.
just throwing this out there. I have no idea if this is even close to what happened but i was just thinking about that night and the recent talk of the lights that automatically turned off came into my head.
So Trayvon knows someone is following him in his car. He probably isn’t too scared, being a teenager and all, this guy is still behind him and now he’s at the cut off so i’m going to jog (or skip if your’re really happy) and see what this freak does. He gets around the corner and if zim kept the lights on in his car Tray might have got a little way down the path and stopped to keep his eye on the lights…they’re still shining so the guy must still be in his car.
I’m just putting myself in his place, i’m talking on the phone, i’ve run around the corner, i’ve lost him, but the lights are still shining straight ahead (west to east). Is this guy following me or what!!??
It just made me think. If those lights were still shining i might stop too, thinking the guy was still in the car, waiting for the lights to slowly round the bend and dissapear as he drives off…..not realising the lights are still there but the guy is out of the car…prowling.
If you think someone is following you, you keep checking if they are still there…he looks over his shoulder, the car lights are still shining, i’m safe, i’ll wait here and watch the lights. When the lights abrubtly turn off, what does that mean? The guy must be at his car to turn his lights off. Did he turn them off because he lives here? Is he getting out of his car? Maybe Trayvon stayed put, maybe he went to have a look, even cutting between the gap in the house to look at the car…he’s not there, he might have gone into a house, he must live here. He walks back to the path and bang…here is this guy.. I really don’t know but all this talk of the lights staying on while zim was out of the car (i didn’t know cars could do this, when i get out of my car i turn the lights off) made me think of how Trayvon would interperet that.
What are your thoughts?
Interesting perspective, and very understanding of how a teenager might think.
GZ claims he parked at the spot where his headlights could shine down the cut thru. If he’d pulled closer to the ford truck he’d be on the curve and his lights wouldn’t be aimed at TM. My question is if he had merely moved from the clubhouse parking lot without, as he claims having observed trayvon complete the second half of the E-W section of TTL, why did he park on the wrong side of the road?
GZ is obviously lying about how where and why the two moved from clubhouse area to cut thru. He marked a map showing his spot but quickly crossed it out before telling the “doubled back/hand in waistband/ circled my car” story – the one where he leaves out the running away. This is the false narrative he tried to promote, and it’s plain as day why he prefers it to the truth.
What he did was park where he marked the map, on the first curve of TTL just south of the mailbox kiosk. He’s either already there or pulling into position as the NE call begins. Trayvon is under the “mail shed” as Dee Dee recalls. George tells dispatch “yeah, now he’s coming towards me” when asked if the teen is “near the clubhouse now” and when he is played the tape in his last interview GZ repeatedly claims he is “by the clubhouse.” These are the first and last things he has to say In the matter. Misdirection in the middle is just that; misdirecting by use of a false narrative.
My theory is real simple. Zimmerman did those things we didn’t hear on the police dispatch call BEFORE he called dispatch. Probably this accounts for the timing discrepancies between you and tchoupi, The sit in car stalker lights gives us potentially 10 minutes of light whether a U-turn was made that pointed lights towards the clubhouse or away from the clubhouse. If Zimmerman’s lights are viewable for nearly 10 minutes on the clubhouse vids, case is pretty much closed, If not, keep looking, imo. Otherwise, look for anything over 15 seconds of light that would indicate a manual shut off of the lights.
I can see that happening, people seem to think that he was thinking with a 40 year old brain but he was not. When I was a young teenager, I was walking with my cousin, she was 3 years older than me and that would make her Trayvons age, well there was a creepy guy who came up beside us in his car offering us a ride, we politely said NO, he asked again but we refused again. This guy creeped up the road but then disappeared, we continued on our way to the store, at that very moment we thought it was kinda creepy but we didn’t turn around we just kept walking because we wanted to go to the store for candy. When we were walking back we saw the guy again, he was creeping along in his car, he came up to us again and said it looks like rain are you guys sure that you don’t want a ride, we said NO again. He continued on down the road. We became scared and talked about it, we sped up but did not run. When we got home, we told my dad about it and when we described him, my dad knew who it was. He told us to lock the door and he would be back. The reason I told this story is because had we been older and more advanced with our thinking( not a teenager) we would have turned around or told someone at the store that a guy was creeping us out, instead we got the candy, talked amongst ourselves and went home.
We did tell it eventually but at the same time, we could have been kidnapped and no one would have known what happened to us. I am so tired of people saying that if he was scared he should have dialed 911 or got off the phone. He was most likely like us, scared by it but since there was not any major interaction between us and the man, even though creeped out didn’t really know what the man was up to, I realized later on when my dad forbid us to walk to the store again and gave us a long speech that there was something about him, from that day on, my mom or dad was always standing outside waiting for us to get off of the school bus, we never were allowed to be home alone again. Trayvon probably thought in his mind, this guy is following me but since he has not attempted to touch me then I will just walk fast and try to get home.
This is why when Zimmerman said “he’s running” that he was trying to get away because he saw him following him from the road and then in the neighborhood. Martin decided this is a little too creepy for me, but then he thought he lost him and probably thought in his mind, well I lost him but was this really a big deal or not! but then when he least expects it, there GZ is again and it is much too late. I am thinking this along the lines of how my thinking was close to his age and how my cousin thoughts were at his age. We found comfort in each other just like he did with his friend on the phone. We don’t know what he was thinking that night but we definitely know that he knew GZ was following him and he was uncomfortable. A lot of people are trying to rationalize GZ’s actions by tying in Trayvons reactions. I personally do not believe Martin did any of the injuries to GZ, I feel that Martin was a target, and it very well could have been another African American male, maybe older or maybe younger. The likes of Taaffe and the words he is spewing let’s me know that he is still up to no good.
I would love to know how a man who did time for theft, owed back child support, violated restraining orders and a man who was charged with assault of an officer, had a restraining order placed on him, etc, make for such upstanding citizens. You would think they would be part of this so called goon squad. I am going to research the goons and find out if they live in la la land along with Big Boi the dog, Big Boi’s owner, the broken nose, and the other fictitious characters invented along the way. Goon gang came along to explain away coon it seems. I hope if ever (GOD forbid) I was charged to be racially biased against a race that they would please interview for me: the fed ex guy, the uniform shop where I buy uniforms, and the gas station attendant, if they interview them then I should be straight. How about you guys!!
This is exactly why I say Trayvon Martin was initially scared, but thought he himself may have overreacted. He’s a teenager!
He thought someone was following him, but dismissed that thought as “I lost the guy” and started to just chill again. He lowered his voice as he heard some unknown predator approaching (again) and was surprised since he thought he was out of danger after losing the guy.
This is also why Zimmerman’s sneak attack doesn’t work. You HEAR what’s coming at you normally — even in the dark. No way Trayvon Martin sneak attacked Zimmerman with wet tennis shoes pounding against the grass or the sidewalk.
No way argument/confrontation is heard by neighbors if the attack was a surprise to Zimmmerman.
I think by this point anyone who would really want to know the names and addresses of the 911 witnesses would be able to figure them out. Furthermore, what with GZs wildly self-contradictory utterances from NEN call to Singleton Interview to Re-Enactment to comments to co-workers and friends to Serino interview, I can’t see any of the witnesses getting much attention for being outed at this point, he’s doing so much damage to himself. So can we at least start putting first names to witness numbers where we know them, e.g. John #6 and Mary #5 and so on, just to keep the confusion level down?
Good idea. I remember them best by witness number and some aren’t public yet. But, I’ll try to list any I remember and those public by witness number plus name.
W1 & W2: Susannah and Selene. They’re sisters and live together on the East side of the sidewalk, between Jon W13 and Mary W5. I’m not 100% sure which is which. I think W1 is Susannah (the older) and W2 is Selene.
W3: (name unknown) ‘white shirt woman’ 2nd caller to 911, lives South of John W6 on TTL. Her call describes the arrival of Officer Smith, and that he does not know where to go.
W4: (name unknown, no statement taken)
W5: Mary Cutcher. Lives several units South of Jon W13, East of the sidewalk on RVC, along with roommate Selma W16.
W6: John (“wrestling on my porch”). Gave interview to Fox 35 from behind his front door on 2/27.
W7: (name unknown, no statement taken)
W9: (GZ’s cousin)
W10: (name unknown, no statement taken)
W11: Jennifer, 1st caller to 911. “Jeremy get down!” Lives in end unit North of John W6 on TTL. Her call captures the screams and the gunshot.
W12: Jeanee, wife of Jon W13. Lives in end unit on the North of the building on RVC, across the sidewalk from Jennifer W11 and Jeremy W20.
W13: Jon, the neighbor who arrived with a flashlight before the police. Identified as “Asian Man” (he’s Filipino), and visible talking to police in crime scene photos. Lives in end unit on the North end of the building on RVC, across the sidewalk from Jennifer W11 and Jeremy.
W14: Austin McLendon: teen who observed part of struggle while walking his dog.
W15: (Austin’s sister, saw nothing , but made 911 call on his report)
W16: Selma Mora Lamilla. Lives several units South of Jon W13, East of the sidewalk on RVC, along with roommate Mary W5. Spoke to Zimmerman asking what was going on after shooting but before Mary W5 called 911.
W17: Amanda. John W6’s fiance.
W18: Jayne, a.k.a ‘The Teacher.’ Lives on the East side of the building on RVC that crosses the top of the ‘T’. Former world class athlete. Hired attorney and gave detailed statement to a private investigator because she felt Chris Serino was blowing her off. The only 911 caller who looks out her window during the entire call and describes events to the operator directly as they happen. Has given disguised interviews to both Anderson Cooper and Ashleigh Banfield of CNN.
W19: Teresa. Lives South of Mary and Selma on the East side of the sidewalk, on RVC. Was concerned the sounds might be “an elderly gentleman” neighbor in some medical distress.
W20: Jeremy. W11’s significant other, heard in the background of her call.
tchoupi has most of the witness locations marked in
(which has had a staggering 57,000 views)
with a precis of their statements underneath.
75330 as of today
I think talkleft.com posted the witness information before it was publicly approved to do so. I think the teacher should sue TalkLeft.
Jeralynn got the teacher’s ID because the SPD failed to redact one key piece of info (her phone number I think) in one of the reports. The rest is just looking through public records. There’s no law against that. On the other hand, defamation suits against the “Tray was a thug” websites and individual posters could keep Ben Crump busy for years. I wonder if that may be why Wagist quit. I emailed Josh Vogel noting that Dan Linehan, and by extention Vogel as well, were setting themselves up for a libel action, and not that they would have taken my word for it, but they may have contacted an attorney who looked at the site and said, “Oh my…”
As a money-making, advertising site presented by an attorney, I think TalkLeft knew better than to post that witness’s info. It isn’t a matter of law when dealing with a so-called attorney, it’s a matter of bar rules and ethics.
Does anyone besides me feel as though things are being deleted on the information highway? I am going over the evidence for the 4th time and when I see something different or latch on from my old notes, I can’t seem to find the reference material that I recieved the information from, like Cnn, Msnbc, etc. It seems like some of this stuff is disappearing and I know that I read it. Some of the things I book marked so I could go back and pull to put in my notes for TRIAL, the page is no longer there!!! is anybody else having these issues? I would also like to say that I am reading, and still keeping up with everyone, you guys are still doing a great job. I will be asking and posting somethings soon, I have been missing in action due to having to work, and run errands for my children, they are military and are moving back to the States from South Korea, HOOAH!! I am excited. Skype is awesome!! My daughter says she can’t wait to see what everyone is doing in this case and says she is very proud of you all. I am proud of you too, without this blog I would be on blood pressure medicine due to most of the blogs being taken over by crazies that support Zimmerman. I am wondering about a witness who stated Zimmerman was rather nonchalant about the break ins, this peaked my interest but I must go back and find this. Anybody else still thinking more along the lines of Zimmerman just wanting to kill Martin and the neighborhood crimes were just a coverup?
Did you guys get a chance to look at the curiculum that I posted for the Criminal Justice degree at Seminole college where GZ attended? and was a credit away from graduating. It really helps to understand just how much he knows from case scenarios, etc. It was very interesting to run across a course that was titled MURDER. He seems to have been putting this together in his head on how to kill a person due to thinking he had inside knowledge and could get away with it, seems that gun was itching in his waist band. We all know that he took everything to the extreme and made sure as to put himself in a position to use the gun that he purchased for Big Boi the dog. I would like to know where Big Boi is and his side of the story and since this is all a childrens book made by GZ, why can’t we have a talking dog?? I know, I know, but just a little bit of humor helps. See ya later alligators!! I am at work so don’t tell on me, please!!
Yes, things are being deleted. If you find a page that has useful info, download it, (use a video downloader plug-in to Firefox to capture any video clips), don’t just bookmark it. It might disappear, but it also might get edited to remove info someone doesn’t want in the public eye (e.g. Nancy Grace cutting out parts where she comes off like an idiot, that also seemed to catch Frank Taaffe in a lie. I saw it live. The video’s not on the web anywhere, with only one not-yet-removed transcript from HLN’s back pages testifying to the fact it ever existed.)
Interesting. I’ll start ripping any YouTube videos cited in my original postings/update sections.
Also if you have your own copy, you can change the title to include a word or two about why you kept it.
Ad it’s faster – the big dump pdfs come up in 5 secs from my own hard drive, take 5 mins to download fresh.
If you need to post something you’ve saves, you can use the gret simple file-sharing site tchoupi just found
which handles text files, but is designed as a video sharer so does vids real well.
“Does anyone besides me feel as though things are being deleted on the information highway?”
Chit be gone at the blink of the eye! Yes, I have noticed. Therein lies the danger of moving from old-fashioned paper news to database-driven web news.
Its an enabler of the public as well as an enabler of the owners of what the public gets to know and *keep as an artifact.
@Riisey, thank you for the post re: “Criminal Justice degree at Seminole college where GZ attended”
Just for background, I commented on this originally in the other thread after the Sean Hannity interview when GZ SAID HE HAD NEVER HEARD OF “STAND YOUR GROUND” LAWS Many had said that he should know about it by virtue of having a gun permit. There’s also his near completion of this degree program.
It should be noted that the “Introduction to Murder” course in the degree program is an elective, so it we don’t know if GZ actually took it. However, it would seem to be one of the more interesting classes, so it’s likely he might have taken it.
This is the book as listed on the course website.
Publisher: Pearson Education
The actual name of the book is “The Murder Book: Examining Homicide”
Search for “ground” in the link above and you’ll see the “stand your ground” laws are discussed in a chapter called “Defenses to Murder” between pages 283, 284 and 292. The definition is clearly spelled out on page 284.
Also, the online syllabus
states that one of the “measurable course objectives” is to “Explain the complication with many existing self-defense laws for battered women who kill their abusers.”
Therefore, surely SYG would have been discussed in class.
formerly “So Interesting”
Was so interesting,
Thanks, we already know GZ lied about SYG. How do you kill a person, bypass the shock of it and say Ishof him in self defense, not oh my god, not what have I done but tha !GZ mind is so depraved especially with that hero complex he has and the ability to squirm out of every other run in with the law, that I believe the more he delvedinto his studies the more he was eager to use that gun of his. He got out of his vehicle like a cop and inflamed the situation because he thought he could get away with it. I would love to see a transcript of his studies. I bet he took the murder coarse but even if he didnt he had plenty more to choose from. GZ is so crazy that he probably couldnt wait for the situation to arise r him to be able to use what he learned. Had he not knew how investigations worked he wouldnt have known what to feed the investigators. GZ asked for the lie detector test because he knew that would help him.
Does anyone else think that Taaffe, Osterman and Zimmerman seem to be the least likely people to be friends? I just don’t see how they all seemed to have come together. I just feel there are some huge pieces missing to this puzzle. Taaffe is so very racial and pretty much has a hard time hiding it, why would he take up with a half black, half hispanic, half white man? I thought the idea was to hate someone like GZ !! Osterman should not even have let himself be caught up with the likes of the two of them. I am curious very curious about all three of them. Taaffe basically stood up for GZ and went on interviews on his behalf but basically said while being interviewed he barely knows the guy. Osterman remained secretive until interviewed by the Fbi, he let him hide out( no doubt with a fee of course) at his home. He risked his job and home life for GZ. I see all three of them playing a big roll in Martins death.
There’s smoke surrounding this trio, but until the actual fire can be spotted all we are left with is speculation. Here’s one thing to speculate about: Mark Osterman admits in so many words that he participated in altering the crime scene when he told FDLE that Shellie moved the vehicle that GZ was driving when he was on the phone with the cops.
His job, reputation and liberty may have been at risk if someone wanted to prosecute him for altering evidence – he was former sheriff’s deputy and clearly knew better. Yes it’s a weak charge but the prosecution could easily make the threat, and flip Osterman to turn state’s witness against George. He could be a mole, and wearing a wire as he drove GZ around as his “security” team.
Or, to further speculate, perhaps Osterman was the “tip off man” and first spotted TM and was driving around in a separate vehicle while the stalking took place. Phone records might confirm the two spoke at the approx. times. Who did GZ call before he told w13 to call Shellie? Who is more important than your wife in a situation like this? Your accomplice, maybe?
So yeah, people love to speculate. But so far we’ve got little proof of anything, and many things are possible.
As for Taaffe, he’s another person of interest but I don’t see much leverage to get him to reveal himself, or think the prosecutor’s investigation has much to show to a judge in the way of probable cause to get a wiretap on him. It’s possible he may have celled someone who was wiretapped, like GZ himself after the hidden money and passport issues were known, but that’s a long shot.
Lastly, Shellie could have flipped and spilled the beans on all of them already. We just don’t know.
I read somewhere that the judge is already familiar with Taaffe’s record. Taaffe isn’t charged, but is a witness. We’ve seen what he’s got to say. I chalk him up to some like the HOA lady on the 9-1-1ycall who doesn’t even know they are defending ignorance, racist actions and potentially framing their ignorance views as heroism. IOW, they don’t seem to know any better.
Interesting. Taffe, Osterman and GZ. Taaffe didn’t like the trouble in the neighborhood as did GZ. Osterman knows of law enforcement as did GZ. I can see the possible attributes of these men that GZ liked. Who knows what was said and done amongst themselves.
Is there evidence that Taaffe and Osterman are friends? or even know each other?
Taaffe did the interviews to get his 15 minutes on TV, and initially did help GZ’s case a little, until he went into the “he just had enough and lost it ” mode.
Osterman seems to a genuine friend and mentor, didn’t seek limelight, supported and aided GZ silently for months. Perhaps he saw a chance to set him straight and not end up in the kind of stupid trouble he himself had gotten involved in. Because MO lost a good job, not over deliberate on-going corruption etc, but over being dazzled by the glamour and money of being paid to night-club with a star. On the story so far, he seems to me the straightest person on the GZ side, in his whole sorry affair.
Osterman has a bigger IQ than Taaffe and more to lose by running to television interviews. He was the hideout man, of course he told the FBI he stayed with him, he had to. It wasn’t like the FBI couldn’t find out. If SPD knew where he was then why not FBI. Osterman was privy to the law and knows how to manipulate to make himself as well as GZ look good, why else would he aim for the sympathetic point stacking by saying GZ was abused. No one knew anything about any abuse until he introduced it. Excuse me for sounding like Osterman is Taaffe friend, I dont know that as a fact. When I said they are the least likely to be friends perhaps I should have said, they were the least likely to be friends with GZ, that is what I meant. I am speaking and commenting of my opinion on a matter in this case. Everyone on this blog is following this case and evidence so they are not confused of the interaction between the three, and as long as GZ keeps benefitting from having all these inside people than I am going to continue to suspect them all. My opinion, my comments!!!
Could someone explain what is his reason of needing an address for dispatcher? If answer is to tell him where “i will be, then give address he already knows, i.e., clubhouse, home. If he needs address in order to give location of ” guy I’m chasing “, guy he’s watching will be exactly where when police get there.. Neither makes sense and that is STATED reason for leaving his car.He clearly says on next day walk through…” I needed to give him a correct address” but I don’t see where any of the detectives asked” a correct address for what?”
Has anyone seen this question at least asked?
Thanks for all everyone’s hard work. This granny is awe struck. Both sides lawyers must be so grateful. I would be if I were practicing criminal law. Pretty damn amazing, actually!!
He didn’t have one. He’s lying. End of story.
Yep. It was just an excuse to explain why he kept along the path after (a) being told not to follow and (b) losing sight of Trayvon. He doesn’t want to admit he was doing any following, as that puts him in the wrong as the aggressor.
But he has to be at or near the T to be attacked, so the address nonsense is his excuse for being there.
I understand GZ has repeated many times he needed to give an exact address.but couldn’t just give them the address he was parked in front of as their were no street numbers,or unable to remember name of street he was parked on due to.bad memory excuses, etc. but what I’m looking for is Did ANY detective ever ask him why he didn’t just tell them to meet me at the clubhouse or meet me at front entrance to HOA? No exact street necessary for these places.
GZ: NEN asked me for an exact address (we know they didn’t)
*****Detective Singletary or Serino or voice analyzer guy:: why didn’t you give them a landmark such as meet me at front entrance gate or clubhouse?*****
Has anyone seen where they asked that question?
Anyone seen that particular question asked?
Again, thank everyone for such incredible intelligent analysis. And who nose I believe your blog was the first one I came across, followed by bcc.list and then leathermark and ingria. Truly amazing work.
I don’t know what the investigators asked him, but when Sean the operator, after trying to set up a meeting point at GZ’s truck, responded to GZ saying “It’s a cut through, so I don’t know the address” by asking, “Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes
then?” to which George replied. “Yeah that’s fine.”
So he did agree to meet the police at an easily identifiable landmark, only to change his mind 3 seconds later, and ask for the arriving officer to call his cell number.
Of course, all this happened AFTER he had left his truck and chased Trayvon for 30 seconds or so. So it has nothing to do with why he left the truck. The ONLY language Operator Sean uses that references any matter of location in any way come as he attempts to clarify things GZ has volunteered to him. 1) GZ says there’s a suspicious guy at 111 RVC (the wrong address for the clubhouse which is actually 1111 RVC). Sean questions him ‘1111 or 111?’ GZ says, “It’s the clubhouse.” Sean asks “he’s near the clubhouse right now?” GZ replies, “Yeah….” 2) Without being prompted in any way, GZ begins describing the location of his truck. But he’s a little confused, “When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse…” So Sean asks, “So it’s on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?” 3) GZ says, “Shit he’s running.” and Sean asks, “Which way is he running?”
And this, of course, is the point where Zimmerman opens the door and exits the Ridgeline. Sean has never asked him for any kind of address at this point or anything like that. All Sean wants to know is what, if anything, the “suspicious guy” is DOING. If GZ had left his Honda in order to answer a question from the operator, that question could only have been “which way is he running?” So the whole business about going over to RVC to check an address is a complete fabrication, and given, as you point out, one that has no purpose whatsoever, an utterly ludicrous piece of BS as well.
“Without being prompted in any way, GZ begins describing the location of his truck. ”
Actually, we don’t know for sure it was his truck’s location he was stumbling in the direction of describing.
Dispatch tries to make sure the first address given is correct and Zimmerman says it’s the clubhouse.
So Sean says “…he’s near the clubhouse right now?”
At which point Zimmerman launches into the whole “he’s coming toward me” routine, culminating in his remark about who it is who always get away and then he launches into directions which someone totally unfamiliar with the case and hearing the recording for the first time might think were directions to get to where Martin was, as the idea of having the police go to where Zimmerman was had not yet been introduced, nor had any mention been made at that point that Zimmerman was driving and not on foot.
The rest of us know that any attempt he makes to explain what he was talking about at the time will involve a hopeless tangle of the timeline as he describes the things he said during the call that are not actually things he said during the call, and of course questions he was asked during the call which he was not actually asked, and directions he was given to carry out during the call which were never actually given or even contemplated by the dispatcher.
unitron is, of course, correct. My bad. GZ’s probably not describing the location of the TRUCK at this point, but the general location of where the “interaction” between himself and TM is occuring. However, my larger point was that Sean never initiates ANY inquiry about “where,” and only uses language referencing space or position in response to something GZ has volunteered..
First, thank you guys for staying w/ my bad grammar and awkward posing of question. What I’m asking is have you seen where any of the detectives, investigators asked him why he needed to look for an address for dispatcher. They ask him why he exited his truck and his first answer (I think before he knew call was recorded) was because dispatcher asked him to. Then, after realizing this wasn’t on tape, he says I wanted to give him exact address.
My question is have you seen where any of the investigators asked him” An address for WHAT,George ? Just that one question asked BY Detectives ?
Why is there some black line across the top of my reply? Prevents me from proof reading it.
Anyway, thank you so much for your patience!
Don’t forget when he is in the car on the way to the crime scene are, he told the investigator that the dispatcher was the one basically desperate for the address. GZ said the dispatcher said” well I need an address” and he said it in a way as though he forced GZ against his will to go looking for that dang address. Did anyone catch that in the reenactment? He also says the dispatcher asked him way before the dispatcher actually asked. It is also odd how he called the police on a regular basis and had addresses ready for them but when it came to that night he had to go on a wild goose chase for one. We have all stated that GZ could have simply said meet me at the clubhouse area, it was near the entrance.
I really wish the misinformation and information twisting can stop!
The police dispatch a/k/a Sean a/k/a NEN asked Zimmerman which address are you PARKED IN FRONT OF well after Zimmerman exited his “schruck” and well after he’d told Sean the police would see his truck once they entered the community, drove past the clubhouse. Zimmerman said they’ll see his truck. This INDICATES that Zimmerman was giving directions to his truck. It’s frigging not rocket sciense!
This is also WELL AFTER SEAN (police dispatch) told Zimmerman “WE DO HAVE THEM [referring to real live police responders] ON THE WAY. Zimmerman had no need for an address. Nobody asked him for one.
Additionally, in Zimmerman’s reenactment, he claims he was AT THE ADDRESS HE SOUGHT, but HE NEVER GAVE IT to Sean.
If Zimmerman didn’t intend to catch his “suspect” and make himself the hero, why didn’t he tell the police to come in through both the back AND the front gates since he’d told the police the suspect was heading towards the back gate? He wanted to catch the “suspect” himself maybe? Why look for an address on RVC for any reason if the expectation is that the “suspect” is going to be closer to the back gate by the time SPD could respond? Makes no sense.
I get the question you’re asking…I too wondered why they didn’t push further. If GZ was looking for the address of where he was parked, as he claims, but we all know that’s not true, then why wouldn’t the investigators point out the obvious…that there were homes directly to right that he could’ve gotten an address from easily. I don’t know if that’s something they were interested in during the reenactment (had they even listened to his NE call by then?)…but surely they could’ve have followed up with it during subsequent interviews with Serino on the 29th.
GZ is a psychopath/ abnormal lack of empathy (imo no conscience) amoral expanding cast of “associates”……after reviewing ad nauseum the re-enactment I stopped watching GZ & LEO and paid attention to everything else in the scenes. I may be wrong yet I feel strongly the following:
1. Do we know if Shellie owned a blue Honda? As they pull away from his TH on the right side of the road is a blue sedan, silver truck (not ridgeline), another blue vehicle, then the ridgeline.
2. At the curve by Lunatic Taaffe’s a blue sedan passes them.
3. Turning onto TTL at the mailboxes (I assume) is the same blue sedan with a biker and fat lady standing outside what I believe to be a Honda & well fatso is SZ.
4. As they pass you see the Detective wave to them.
5. Then the silver truck is at the curve with MO and whoever the Asshole is named John they appear to be kicking around in the yard area coming from the T nice work boys.Since there was virtually no credible crime scene done and we also see pics of said area in daylight hours whats a little evidence sprinkling or removing among evil friends. Now I kind of understand sissy pants John with his ever changing weirdo stories. With freaky white bald MO being his shadow well chicken shit John….
OK, close at the scene that was Robert Snr and MO. So Shellie followed along, too?
Nice catch, sdunn5.
Sadly the resolution is awful. I was hoping to get her licence plate off it, to see if it matches a number the police checked at the scene on the night. No such luck.
Yes resolution is pathetic and seems to be deliberately so as in the blurry faces jumping camera which seems to cater to GZ even as the moron tells them he was looking for an address and gestures to the left of the cut thru see backs of houses!?! Wow SP can ya just pan a little to the right where it’s clearly the fronts of the TTL homes…oops no can do might catch the “Security Counsel” and a real address! But I digress since SZ has a Honda as well I always thought that key with the girlie flashlight looked well…girlie, just asking since they seem to be such little sticklers for minute details. A Jon dude I found in property records listed as Jonathan Manalo 2861 RVC wife Jeannee, also listed in the crime scene contamination log as the guy wandering around inside the crime tape hmmmm.
Yep, that Jonathan is the one who took the cellphone pic of the back of GZ’s head. He was “inside the crime scene” even before the tape went up, as he was there close to GZ ringing his wife when the police got there.
See tchoupi’s data collection for the locations of the witnesses
with a precis of which said what.
Also noticed on pt1 of the re-enactment as they pull away from GZ’s house at approx. 1:20 mark I notice a bicyclist on the passengers side that continues around the Taaffe bend. Once they get onto TTL oh what a surprise Sheille outside of blue Honda is talking to a Bicyclist, complete with sunglasses and bike helmet. Anyone have any ideas as to who this is?
I’d wondered about that friendly wave to the car at the corner- I’m not convinced it’s Shellie but it’s certainly suspicious to me if it is considering she’s more or less “c*ck blocked” the police from parking where GZ may have himself been parked the night of the shooting – it’s very close to the spot GZ himself marked on a map… Is there a reason she would park there?
It does look like her standing there. She WAS blonde at the time, I recall from one single picture of her and GZ back then. And the friendly wave was because it was her.
Yes interesting where she chose to park.
I finally watched the interview with Hannity Sean, and I laughed when he pulled another of his easy lies.
That was when SH asks him to recount his story from “I went shopping…”. So, George Zimmerman tells about him going to Target because that’s what usually do on Sunday. He basically tries to show how normal, typical and close to you he is. Then he heads to the Target. That’s when he pulls a George Zimmerman Lie. He says with sad eyes “And that’s the last time I’ve seen my home”.
The issue is that less than 22h after leaving his home for shopping at Target, he was leaving that exact same home for reenacting.
Ok that’s minor. But, after month of studying this specimen, I’m now very sensitive to GZL. I can smell it like a rescue dog smells people deep in the snow after an avalanche. And I guess, I’m not the only one.
Yeah, but it’s an avalanche he started himself and he’s buried too deep to ever climb out. Somehow he seems to think “keep digging” is going to be the solution.
I’ve known enough people who were “truth challenged” (and probably less so than GZ) to know that “keep digging” is ALL they know how to do. I some cases, it’s sad, as small wrongs that could be easily put right with no lasting damage get escalated into major conflicts.
I think GZ’s intent of digging even harder means that MOM has completely lost control of his client, there will be no negotation or deal of any kind, and GZ is going to make sure his case goes to a full televised trial, in which, foolishly, he will appear as the defense’s “star” witness.
His name will be in the headlines for weeks if not months. The contributions to the defense funds will keep rolling in, and he’s not worried about spending life in prison because he thinks he’s smart enough to bluff a jury the way he bluffed the SPD. He probably thinks it was his clever story that got Norm Wolfinger to decide against pressing charges, not Wolfinger’s politics. He doesn’t realize that none of his “supporters” actually give a shit about him, and that he’s just a pawn in a bigger game he’s to narcisistic to even recognize. I wrote somewhere a while back that I thought O’Mara was the only person involved in this actually looking out for GZ’s interests as an individual, rather than as a symbol or cause or part of family reputation or whatever. And it seems GZ has screwed even that, neutering O’Mara who is probably secretly wishing he’ll get fired soon.
“GZ against the Universe.”
“Look at me now, Ma! Top of the world!”
Sadly we don’t know why norm Wolfinger declined to prosecute. There’s been no credible outside inquiry into this aspect of the original case. Wolfinger won’t talk to the press and has quietly announced his retirement – to me he’s a bigger mystery than G Z and a bigger disgrace too, likely.
“Sadly we don’t know why Norm Wolfinger declined to prosecute.” True. But we have a pretty good idea. Rick Scott is the pride and joy of the Tea Party. His core base of support are the kind of white voters who respond to dog whistle politics. The NRA is one of his major financial backers. Norm Wolfinger is Scott’s lackey. Black kid in hoodie gets shot. Neighborhood Watch guy claims self-defense. What’s SYG for, except to keep the State from “wasting time” investigating good citizens who are just taking out the trash. If Wolfinger HAD prosecuted, Scott’s base would have been going.”what the fup is up with that?” Wolfinger had no motive to make waves over yet another dead young black man from Miami Gardens.
Odd to think that the GZ/TM affair would have gone away quietly had not Keith Olbermann gotten into a snit with management at MSNBC, resulting in his departure, leaving an opening in MSNBC’s schedule that they decided to fill with Al Sharpton…
“”Sadly we don’t know why Norm Wolfinger declined to prosecute.” True. But we have a pretty good idea. Rick Scott is the pride and joy of the Tea Party. His core base of support are the kind of white voters who respond to dog whistle politics. The NRA is one of his major financial backers. Norm Wolfinger is Scott’s lackey. ”
Well, he might have held off on charging initially because of the way Florida’s law says that if you don’t have immediate proof that it’s not self-defense, you can’t charge or arrest.
As for being Scott’s lackey, he announced on March 20 he was going to to take the case to the grand jury.
Two days later Scott was announcing that Corey was taking over the case.
Reckon that was anything other than throwing Wolfinger under the bus so they could proceed to throw Zimmerman to the wolves?
The issue is why Wolfinger didn’t charge GZ before public attention was drawn to the case, despite having the evidence of the major and obvious disprepencies between GZ’s NEN call, and his statement to Singleton and the ‘Re-enactment’, plus the forensics of no DNA or ‘fight’ injuries on Trayvon. As for Wolfinger announcing he was going to take the case to a grand jury after the national pressure had been put on, we have no idea what kind of case he might have brought. He might well have put up a weak case hoping the Grand Jury would decline to indict GZ, in the hopes that this would kick the can down the road and relieve him of responsibility for his earlier decision not to arrest and charge. (I doubt he would have been going to the Grand Jury because he wanted to tag GZ with Murder 1…). And SAYING you intend to take a case to a jury, and actually doing so are two different things.
So, being thrown under the bus would be taking the fall for all the shoddy shortcomings of the original investigations, which he probably deserves even more than Bill Lee. Lee worked for the City of Sanford, not Rick Scott, and got fired for cause. Still Corey has nothing bad to say about him either. Nope, the official position is everybody did just fine.
60 Minutes had a feature last night on homelessness in Seminole County, where hundreds and hundreds of school-children are living out of cars, because all of the shelters are so overcrowded. This is Rick Scott’s Florida. If Norm Woflinger is under a bus, there are a lot of kids who the conditions under that bus for sleeping in the back-seat of a car.
I dont know if you all read this yet on Taaffe this morning or not but please excuse me if this has been discussed already. I am afraid I am using my phone to post. Thanks T
============== FAKE ALERT==========
Riisey thanks for the tip.
I searched for that story, and that one blog you quote appears to be the only source for that story. I can’t see a single news item that it might have picked up from, so………..
There is another article just under it highly critical of Taaffe, as well.
Seeing something in 20 papers doesn’t make it true, perhaps their informant was mistaken/fraudulent, but generally I’d like to see things in more than one source, and not a blog at that, before taking them for likely truth.
I dug and dug into it before I posted this. Taaffe is not a celebrity so he wouldn’t be on the cover of a magazine or on every news channel as breaking news, now his friend Gz that is another story! The sourceis confidential. I even looked up Lake Mary pd. This is Taaffe NOW at this age, it is his miserable mugg. It is not an old picture.
Meant to also mention in my last post that Orlando Sentinel is playing a flash video along with the article in which Taaffe gives his address (he’s not afraid and hasn’t left his home). Taaffee also mentioned in the flash vid that he recently lost his own son. Recently???
Thanks for the post riisey earlier. Seems like Taaffe told a reporter that he was mixing drinks with anxiety meds, didn’t know he couldn’t do it, has been having personal issues (his son did die recently right?), is now encouraging people to read labels on their meds.
Formerly “So Interesting”
Was so interesting:
This is the son that Taafe is saying he is grieving over, I dont doubt he misses his son but he did not just pass away. I recall the daughter of Taafe going on a facebook rant and saying that she resented him for bringing her brother into the GZ drama, this was after Taaffe played the message where Zimmerman left him a thank you and sent his condolences on his deceased son. We all thought it strange due to the the son dying in 2008 but GZ speaking as though it happened recently. Take a look. Thanks again.
My problem with Taaffe is that he is a liar, he knew he was drinking and driving, he had to feel intoxicated/ high when he was driving and he endangered others lives. He I am sure was drunk from alcohol and taking drugs purposely. How did he get stopped I wonder? was he swerving or speeding. I would love to know. It is obvious that blame will always be placed on other things with this guy and his friend.
I’m not so sure this is a fake. OS is covering it, too. There’s a site dedicated to Florida arrests. Apparently, Taaffe’s face is recognizable enough now to grab the attention of the people monitoring arrests.
Yep, it is real and not fake, Taaffe went under the radar due to him not being a celebrity but he did not escape the eyes and ears of the people whom he has offended. He is going down with the ship, he is a devil and has a nasty past. He was so concerned with thieves but is a thief himself. He put innocent peoples lives in danger by driving under the influence. I said there is something sinister about him, he and his buddy GZ are very much alike and that is why they are friends.
Was So Interesting submitted on 2012/07/29 at 5:38 pm | In reply to aussie.
Regarding Taaffe’s DUI arrest, that photo was supposedly taken 7-28-12, His other arrests were old really old and he looked different then.
My guess is that we’ll be able to see the booking report tomorrow or next day.
I have no idea why I haven’t been able to post on these threads. Trying a different pseudonym. Formerly “So interesting”
Thanks Loree for the links. I recall this story, and the one from the Orlando Sentinel as well. Here are my constant thoughts on this case, and what drives me in indignation and frustration every day: And it’s not the many obvious lies of one George Zimmerman. It’s the inaction of Norm Wolfinger.
Wolfinger has given some non-denial denials about his supposed meeting with Bill Lee, or being on the scene of the shooting the night it happened. He’s all but dared the feds to investigate him by his actions IMO but this was always a political issue first and a search for justice second in some sense, given that the real will of the people is what drove the case forward more than the will of the people to whom the case was entrusted. George Zimmerman was caught flat-footed telling a pack of lies to SPD about how and why he came to be behind those townhomes next to a dead, unarmed teenager and yet he was never charged with a crime until 2.2 million people put pressure on their government to do more than whatever was being done. At that point the feds acted in a way to spur the GOP governor forward at the same time, and we ended up with the real investigation being handed over to Angela Corey’s office and NOT the feds, who mostly provided window dressing in the form of community relations and some photo ops with the FBI walking around the RATL with their jackets on, asking questions of people OTHER THAN Norm Wolfinger and insiders at the SPD, where the real problem may have been located. Corey NEEDS the SPD’s cooperation and cannot look a gift horse in the mouth by pressing for an investigation of what happened with their efforts.
I feel like Chris Serino KNOWS that GZ is a lying piece of garbage, but also knows he lacked a strong eyewitness to the final struggle down or up the dog walk, and that the largest thing he missed was Dee Dee. He wanted charges filed so that his department would be granted more time and resources to build a case with, but his chief was against him. He gave a joint interview to the Sentinel with his boss, and toed the party line but privately expressed to people like Cheryl Brown his personal feelings about the case – that it was one where you needed to read between the lines to see the true picture.
Throughout the police interview tapes we see Serino playing “good cop'” with GZ, but his goal is always to get more and more statements from George, and he succeeds because he knows all he really needs to do is give this wannabe cop enough rope and he will hang himself, which I feel he has done. Case in point is the “voice stress test” which is of course a joke in a legal sense but a GOLD MINE in an investigative sense in that it got GZ to tell his tale one more time, and go on record as having been struck to the ground backwards by the opening blow, and other such statements that contradict the physical evidence. No one gives a rat’s arse how much stress someone has in answering a question – it’s 100% immaterial to the task at hand, a ruse and a ploy but an effective one. It helped George to open up and run his mouth some more. Mission accomplished, and by telling GZ he “passed” GZ went on telling lies like he had carte blanche to make up more lies, which he then did.
A clear picture of what GZ was up to is there for an INVESTIGATOR to see; but that picture needs a PROSECUTOR to present it to a jury and in order to do that a prosecutor usually wants a star witness to do it for him.
In this case, the star witness is George Zimmerman for the portion of the story where the two move from the clubhouse to the T since GZ has been caught in an obviously fabricated false narrative involving a doubling back/circling/hand in waistband move that never happened that way. TM left the mail boxes where he was BEHIND GZ and passed him walking east on TTL, and GZ followed in his car. I am absolutely sure of this; this action is the simplest and best fit for what is heard on the NE call, and it matches DeeDee’s testimony and GZ’s own “inconsistent” statements in manner that CLEARS UP many inconsistencies and resolves contradictions, and GZ WAS “by the clubhouse” when TM passed his car – again, just not in the way that GZ cares to admit it.
Then there is the star piece of evidence itself, the sounds of GZ jumping out of his car and running after TM, and being asked point blank if he is following the teen, and admitting he is, being told the police don’t need him to do that, answering “okay” but continuing to pursue the teen.
After that the prosecution can present GZ’s lie in his statement where he claims he is all the way to RVC when he tells dispatch “he ran'” which is not physically possible – George is obviously at the T at this time.
Every bit of GZ’s account up to this moment, when the call ends, can be proven a lie beyond a shadow of a doubt. Most of it isn’t physically possible to reconcile with GZ’s statements.
After that, there are a lot more troubling inconsistencies to his story but
not the bedrock recorded call to pit it against. But the jury would arrive at the telling of the physical altercation knowing that GZ was pushing a false narrative to police each and every time he told his story and that only a fool would trust what he says one iota.
Yet somehow all of this was not enough for Norm Wolfinger to go to court with. What went on in his head? To me this is, and has been, proof that he is either incompetent, racially biased or corrupt, or some version of any combination of the three. ( He may have been aiderd in his stupidity by Bill Lee, we don’t yet know and may never will.) And I put the deepest shame on HIM, an elected official, not some knucklehead like GZ. We will always have George Zimmermans, private citizens doing dangerous and stupid things, but we need to weed out the Norm Wolfingers from positions of public power.
And yet despite all this, there was no credible outside investigation into Norm and Bill Lee. And that to me is the greatest injustice – the killer was about to go free, yes, but it looks like his appointed and elected accomplices have already gone free.
willisnewton: good post on Norm “why isn’t HE being investigated” Wolfinger.
But, I still want to know how you think tchoupi’s surveillance vid analysis – which indicates that GZ was parked on TTL facing West before he made his NEN call – is in error.
“TM left the mail boxes where he was BEHIND GZ and passed him walking east on TTL, and GZ followed in his car. I am absolutely sure of this; this action is the simplest and best fit for what is heard on the NE call…”
Well, not really, in that if GZ was trailing TM in the Ridgline, why would he say, “now he’s coming toward me… he’s coming to check me out”? Why would he surveil TM through his mirror instead of making the U-Turn to face the clubhouse?
But more, importantly, in light of tchoupi’s work with physical evidence here, it is no longer enough to just say, “this action is the simplest and best fit for what is heard on the NE call.” The pattern of lights tchoupi has analysed must be accounted for as well. To establish your hypothesis that GZ was driving (East, your saying?) while talking, you must square it with the surveillance vids, and demonstrate if not proof that tchoupi is in error, then at least a plausible explanation of how a. his analysis of the light patterns could be in error and/or b. how his analysis of the times at which these light events occurred could be in error.
In addition, if GZ was NOT facing West at the beginning of the NEN call, then what is the noise at 7:11:16, that sounds like a steering wheel being turned, occuring just after the moment it would seem TM has walked past the truck?
To me, in light of tchoupi’s work. It seems the “best fit” is that 1. GZ saw TM by the clubhouse as he looped back and forth on RVC, 2. He turned down TTL to get a closer look at the mailbox area, where he was able to recognize TM as a young black male in a hoodie. 3. He drove East down TTL and made a U-Turn to gain a more discreet surveillance position on the mailbox area, from which point he called the police. 4. During the call, TM left the clubhouse area, walking home, which led him to walk towards the Ridgeline as GZ describes. 5. TM passes the truck at 7:11:04, NMLE’s “GZ shits a brick” moment as GZ says “Please get an officer over here.” 6. Dispatcher Sean says “Just let me know if this guy does anything else.” GZ says “OK.” 7. Then, in the one instance where he could be said to act in response to the operators instructions, at 7:11:16 he turns the truck around so he can better see where TM has gone.
So what evidence, if any, exists — not for an alternative explanation — but to suggest that this scenario is wrong? What about this sequence is contradicted by any physical evidence?
Oh, I think he was facing west, and made a u turn – I don’t disagree with Tchoupi (sp?) except that I think he may have turned off his lights and crept up a bit to the corner, or that he headlights are already at the corner in the clubhouse video.
You can hear something that sounds like a u turn on the tape around the time of “these axxholes always get away”
I don’t know if the clubhouse videos are “proof” of much until they can be compared to a test. They do seem to make sense, tho. I don’t know if the east pool video analysis is accurate in measuring the distance from camera to say that GZ parked at his “final/ FT” spot or not. It does seem to show a west facing car, just don’t know how far.
I hate to be critical but it’s possible Tchoupu (sp?) fell victim to believing GZ’s lies about where he parked and that this has influenced his map.
If GZ parked at the final, and TM moved towards his car from near/by the clubhouse as GZ variously claimed, you have to account for the “long tail,” the next 30 seconds until “sh*t, he’s running” and putting GZ by the cut thru means TM is long gone by then assuming he moves at a similar speed.
The reason I prefer to rely on deductive reasoning and GZ’s statements is that they can be used in court against the defense – how is the defense supposed to impeach their own defendant’s words or fight the laws of physics? He’s caught here in clear lies and can’t gat out. That should be the strongest punch to lead with.
If he u-turned and turned off the lights, you wouldn’t hear the chime in the background of his call.
Note: I could be missing something. “Tuning in” tonight for the first time in awhile.
Willi: “I hate to be critical but it’s possible Tchoupu (sp?) fell victim to believing GZ’s lies about where he parked and that this has influenced his map.”
No, no!!! I’m on my knees begging you to be critical!!
That said, never say again that I believe GZ’s lies. That’s insulting.
I have one point to make here, though. If GZ was driving lights off, obviously, the vehicle caught by the clubhouse videos isn’t GZ’s. That leads to the next question that is, who’s that that stopped 10sec by the mailboxes, proceeded east and made a u-turn to park on TTL facing west seconds before GZ’s NEN call?
Yes, Indeed, I dream of someone trying the clubhouse videos by driving/parking/stopping a silver Ridgeline around the clubhouse. That will put an end to all of this.
I totally buy into your theory, tchoupi, even if I can’t spell your name right.
I think however that the spot GZ marked on a map means something. I’m saying that he did what you can see on the video, and perhaps THEN after making a u turn and parking facing west on TTL SOMEWHERE, he may have crept up closer to the corner to where he could observe TM at the mailboxes from the position he marked on the map.
What I don’t see as possible is the idea that he could observe TM circling his car fro either direction parked at the spot where he claims he finally parked.
In your map of movements deduced from clubhouse videos, you seem to place GZ in an impossible spot IMO, which is marked J and K on your map. I don’t think GZ could be passed by TM there unless he walked very very fast towards him and very very slowly away, which strains credulity.
What makes a heck of a lot more sense is that the spot where GZ observed and was passed by TM is closer to the spot he marked on a map and then quickly crossed out – the first corner of TTL. I think you may be seeing a U turn with the lights on wherever but the second uTurn would probably be with the lights off.
How certain are you about the distance away from camera that you place J and K are? Is there a good place on the recording where you see a north-bound car make the second corner and come towards camera? That would seem to help place the curve better.
Guys you are BOTH right.
Willis, you don’t like the far deep position close to what he indicated in the walkthrough. You don’t like it on timings.
Tchoupi, you pick those positions J and K on the light patterns.
The H and I positions are quite close to where GZ put the first mark on the map, that he quickly scratched out.
Well, there was a witness who said he used to get about with his lights off. So —
He drives tchoupi’s route. The bend is a good spot for a u-turn; there are no driveways along that section to do a 3-point turn, but the bend is suitable. He then turns off the headlights but does NOT PARK. He drives back part way towards the mailboxes. As far back as he likes. Or that Willis’s timings let him.
Sitting in the dark, watching.
He does not need the headlights to see. Trayvon’s wearing reflective shoes which will show a bit even in the dark. He’s already got the description. If the “suspect” starts to make a dash for the main gate he can follow him better with the lights off. You see better in the rain with no headlight glare on the wet road. Besides, it’s more “surveillance-ish”.
The facing east lights on story is to explain why it suddenly got dark on him (the 15 sec timer turned off his lights on his way back from a 45 sec walk) so he had to stop at the T to bash his flashlight into working mode. Just a story.
I understand what you’re saying now.
It looks clear to me that GZ made a u-turn, and I understand that Whonoze and yourself agree on that.
However, the exact location he parked at can’t be extracted from the EP video. At least, I don’t see how it’s possible at this point. Therefore, location K, marked on the figure can be closer to the pool as you’re suggesting or further away from the pool. It still have to be on the east-west section of TTL though facing the pool (want to make that clear).
From the video, the GZ turned its lights off or turned them to parking mode. This makes it more difficult, if not impossible to track its car during the first 2min of its call.
I’m not sure if it matters much. Of course, proving that he was facing west could be another item in the list of lies.
I’m doubtful Zimmerman turned off his lights making a u-turn. No way Zimmerman relied on reflective shoes for light. Sorry, that’s not realistic based on what we know.
Zimmerman’s lights were either manually turned off to his advantage, or they shut off automatically and startled him because he hadn’t realized how long he’d been sitting “watching”.
Anything less than 10 minutes or 15 seconds based on a verifiable starting point could indicate a deliberate action. Anything more than 10 minutes with or w/o a verifiable start of clock could indicate addtional driver behanviors or a faulty, inaccurate manual.
Zimmerman’s use of flashlights leads me to believe that he had no light down the path either expected or unexpected (although prepared to hunt via some light source).
I did not mean that GZ turned off his light making a u-turn. I meant that he made a u-turn, parked and switched the light off.
I’m quite in line with Whonoze that is that he was not expecting TM to walk his toward him. He probably tried to keep an eye on TM from the distance. So, right after parking, he switched the light of parking mode.
For sure he it did not take 10min for the light to turn off. The whole action takes a few tens of seconds. In any case, GZ was still in his truck when the light went off. So, the light going off is not really correlated to GZ exiting his truck with his keys.
A complex thought laid out in a beautifully crafted post. Few people can simplify a point of view down to its bare bones as you have done. Thank you,
My reply was for willisnewton point about prosecutors laying down on their job. Finally,the old gal is getting it ( doh- put post author’s name first)
Thanks, I’ve been saying this since, like… April so I’ve had some practice putting it into shorter form. Wolfinger is obviously a relic from a bygone era and I’m glad he’s not seeking re-election but I am mad as hell that he’s not the subject of a credible outside investigation. There is some serious dirt being swept under the rug here IMO but absent subpoena power and the political will to get the sunshine in we’ll never know. It seems to be more than investigative journalists have been able to find, not that many seem to have tried.
If you have not read this NYT article, you are doing yourself no favor in attempting to understanding the case.
It’s written by a Pulitzer prize winning journalist and may be as close as we ever get to a decent inquiry into the SPD’s actions, as woefully inadequate as it is.
George Zimmerman is NOT the problem. He’s a minor criminal at best, but he’s a symptom of deeper problems concerning social, racial and legal problems we face in the USA. The manner in which his case was handled is what motivates me to keep speaking out on the issue. Why, when SPD clearly established him as a two-bit lying sack of sh*t did it still take 2.2 million people to get the government to act? And even then, the government clearly did NOT act to clean up the institutions and individuals who allowed this to slip through the cracks. Bill Lee got some kind of severance deal, and Norm Wolfinger is being allowed to retire quietly. CHris Serino, who I see as a dedicated pro, is now working as a patrol officer on the night shift. Where is the justice in any of that?
Saying that Wolfinger is being “allowed” to retire implies that he’s been given any choice in the matter.
I stongly suspect that, right after he said he was going to the grand jury with the case, the governor told him he was going to recuse himself and retire.
Willis newton says read nyt article to understand case :
My thoughts are, well la de da nyt w/ your big Pulitzer prize winning authors. Sanford doesn’t have your big city resources so when they say they couldn’t get GZ’s records until the next day, that is perfectly understandable. Maybe you big city Yankees have something called a (what’s it called…) oh, right computer but our tax base is too low to invest in such gimmickry. And anyway, our IT guy was on vacation and no one understood we could google ” public records, orange county, Zimmerman, George and within say 2 seconds have access to, his civil AND criminal records.
Also, big city boys, we didn’t understand we could have taken his phone to radio shack or even Orlando, if necessary, to buy a charger & get into it. His father would have allowed us to bypass normal legal necessities but well we just weren’t completely sure we could trust him. He seemed a tad angry w/ us and not fully appreciative of all the work we have to do with our main detective on vacation.
Speaking of which, we did think we might call our main detective as this was our first murder this year but with our IT guy nowhere to be found, we couldn’t get into his file to obtain his phone number. The file cabinet was locked and we couldn’t find the key.
So, that’s our complete explanation and shows plain as day we did to give a shit about a white man shooting a black kid ten days into his 17th birthday.
Actually, they had a not inexpensive gizmo called a Cellebrite that would have let them access certain info from Martin’s cell phone that night, but the battery in his phone was too run down or the phone was otherwise damaged, so it didn’t work.
At that time the reason for trying to get any info off of the phone was to identify the shooting victim.
Which occurred via other means within about 12 hours.
And there may be legalities and technicalities concerning just what they can and can’t do, like attaching a charger (which, if the phone were damaged, might make things worse and destroy evidence they were trying to access)
In hindsight the Sanford Police may well have done a number of things differently, and perhaps because of this case a lot of other police departments are reconsidering the way they do certain things as well.
Of course those changes would all take a bigger bite out of their no-doubt less than opulent budgets.
Unitron, how much would fairness, decency and thoroughness take out of the budget?
A guy they knew shot (and openly admitted he shot) a black kid nobody on the spot could identify. The guy said it was self defence. What’s the hurry about all that other stuff? they’re only formalities, tomorrow will do, just to clean up the paperwork n the nonchargeable shooter.
TM they’d need to identify sometime. They don’t like to have John Does lying around, the county probably has to pick up the tab for burying them if no relatives can be found.
willis: Regarding the “long-tail.” Walking speed is considered 1.5 yards/sec. According to DeeDee, Trayvon was “walking fast” before he began running. So let’s guess his pace as between 1.75 yards/sec and 2.25 yards/sec. Meaning in 32 seconds he would covered between 56 and 72 yards. Now, let’s guess that he began running just before he reached the ‘T’, cutting off the corner and passing Southwest of that little tree. If so, that would place GZ’s truck between 5 and 25 yards West of where tchoupi plots it at point ‘K’ on his map when TM passed it…
…or between TL2 and TL3 on the following map, which shows TM’s presumed walking path, and the point at which I guess he began running: http://imgur.com/a/tUHlU
If GZ did turn the truck around to face East, thus giving him a better view of TM after the youth had passed the first location point, this could have resulted in a final position closer to the T, depending on how he made the turn.
Sure, that’s a valid enough map. Many things are possible. Using google earth path tool gives a better measurement, I have found however.
at 4.5 ft per second, I would put the map like this:
So as you can see, if this map were close to the actual event then he would run exactly when one might suspect him to – when he has the chance to maybe fake out his follower by a last second gambit hoping the car would be committed to the turn. Were he to run sooner, he might be mowed down by a speeding car. It’s a game of nerves.
Well, I don’t think the end point on your map is the point at which TM ran. GZ’s comments clearly show he identified TM as running South. Had he run to the South at your end point, he would have been going down TTL, thus allowing the car to follow him. Had he started running from your end point continuing in the same direction as his previous path (East along the sidewalk), GZ would not have described him as running “down to the back entrance.”
It is more likely IMHO, that TM was holding his nerve and waiting to run until he had an obstacle he could quickly place between himself and GZ. Or as DeeDee reported “He said he was going to run from the back because it was more easier.”
We have all wondered what “from the back” means, but given that there IS a “long tail”, that quite some time does seem to pass between the point where TM passes the truck and the point where GZ says, “Shit. He’s running!” So it would seem highly unlikely that “from the back” means ‘from the back of the truck’ but rather the back sidewalk, going behind the back of the buildings on the East side of Southbound TTL.
I used to think the pursuit must have gone down TTL, but given the amount of additional evidence and analysis that has come out since I made my first speculative YouTube timeline, I have concluded I was probably wrong, and TM headed South on the sidewalk instead.
I still favour the TTL route.
Is there anything to say he DID ever park facing east? (apart from the walkthrough).
Tchoupi thinks the NEN tape has 3 sounds at the getting out of the car, which are shoes on hard surface, so parked on correct side of the road, at least (not indicating which way faced, of course, but dismissing the faced-east-on-wrong-side idea). .
If the last position was facing west, he’d still have to get out and follow on foot, whether TM went down TTL or the inner path. If it was TTL, doing yet another u-turn would make him lose sight if TM were to duck between buildings. At that point he’d lose additional time parking and getting out, without even knowing which unpaved cut through to get out at.
I think TM went TTL, GZ saw him go in the first cut through, and went back a bit to the path, hoping to catch sight of him exiting the cut through. But TM stopped in there and took a rest, feeling safe. So GZ went through to RVC in case TM had done so too. (Remember he says he went to RVC. He doesn’t make things up, he just swaps them around).
Not seeing him there either, he came back through a cut through (on the RVC side) just when TM emerged from his (on the TTL side) thinking the coast was clear. This “corners” TM in DeeDee’s words (prevents him going south towards home).
Thanks for you post. I appreciate your input and insight to the case at hand.
I don’t know much about Wolfinger, but I think he would have had to make his decisions based on what the SPD presented to him. From what I have read, the decision was made by someone in his office — not Wolfinger personally which is contrary to what we were all lead to believe early on.
A review of the evidence presented to Wolfinger’s office didn’t leave a definitively picture. For one thing, Serino put in the report that it was George Zimmerman’s cries for help on the 9-1-1 call. We all know better than that now. Cries for help if presented as by Zimmerman would be completely antithetical to murder or homicide and would be the conclusionary part of the statement — one of the two most likely parts of the statement that would get read by an uncaring, rubber-stamping SA’s office. IIRC, Serinos dropped that line in his conclusion (last paragraph). Hopefully someone can verify.
Serino talks out of both sides of his mouth. I’m glad he did what his bosses expected and kept his job and I’m also grateful that he dropped hints and doubts about Zimmerman despite the institutional racism hevident in his department. The only thing he’s done that’s pissed me off is to serve up his black peers only as if they were pressuring him to do the parts he had to know were the right things to do.
“The only thing he’s done that’s pissed me off is to serve up his black peers only as if they were pressuring him to do the parts he had to know were the right things to do.”
(sarcasm warning) You mean there are black investigators in the SPD? Well, it’s sure a good thing that the department didn’t assign any of them to the Martin case because their obvious racial bias would have poisoned the outcome!
I don’t understand what you’re mentioning as sarcasm. Really, I don’t. All I’m saying is I think Serino is not racist, but scared for his job working in a possibly institutionalized racist org/agency/company/state. Serino seems to be buying into the “race card” propaganda possibly to save his own arse. I don’t know.
Here’s a primer on how the “race card” comes into play:
Be sure to check the full video and replay the statement by the patron at 3:06.
Sorry to not be clear. I wasn’t making any judgement on Serino. I was noting that Serino’s mention of black colleagues is just about the only reason we know there are black detectives in the SPD. My reference was to the fact that black investigators have been invisible in a case where a black teen was shot by a “Neighborhood Watchman.” Which means somehow the SPD assigned an all-white staff to this case, out of a more diverse pool of potential investigators. As if somebody in the chain of command could guess that an African-American detective might see things differently, push for an arrest, or complain about shoddy work being done by other investigators, or maybe even stand up to the powers that be. So I’m saying the absence of African-American officers from the investigation is another sign of disturbing institutional racism in the SPD and Wolfinger’s SAO.
As for Serino, I do think he was doing his best to work towards actual justice within a system that didn’t want it, which put him in an awkward spot where he had to play both ends against the middle. It also probably took him awhile to figure out GZ was BSing everyone, so at times he probably was acting in a ‘let’s move this thing along’ manner — as in blowing off Mary and Selma and Jayne, and at other times laying traps for GZ. He also may have continued to disregard the 911 witnesses strategically, so he would not appear over-zealous to his superiors, figuring the real evidence would emerge from GZ’s blabbing mouth.
So, I have the feeling Serino is the one person who knows exactly what went on inside the LE agencies, where ‘all the bodies are buried’, and could write one hell of a tell-all book when this is all over. For now, he has to keep his mouth shut while the case is still in process, and even when it’s done he may chose not to say what he knows, as a lot of it would probably paint other officers in a less than flattering light, and the police do have that Blue Code of ‘never rat on another cop.’
Thank you, Loree for the link. I’m heading over to read away. Hadn’t seen that one before.
Im looking thru my files for another article about wolfinger and zimmerman being close friends. If I find it will post.
I mean the Zimmermans, they lived in Easton Pa and were neighbors.
My thoughts are that Wolfinger’s office couldn’t decide to prosecute with what was presented by the SPD. The way institutional racism works is like this. In top-down organizations, the desired reports and outcomes are well known internally via hints from upper level/upper management. It’s never done in writing by the upper level people. They get their underlings to write to their cause.
That’s what I see Serino has done and I think he only did it as a self-preservationist. He seemingly knows what’s up. He even overstepped in some of the witness interviews and asked a question about a “little nazi” which he later came back and cleaned up.
The institutionalized racism is a hard thing to thwart because only hints can be put forth by people in the know. If they put it in writing blatently, the “whistle-blower” is the one fired. Apparently, Serino needs his paycheck.
Very well put, thank you. In his little red book, Mao Tse Tung put it like this: a fish rots form the head. Same effect, but in the case of rotten institutions the underlings suffer the most even while the corrupt head skates away clean.
This made for interesting reading, and fits GZ’s personality to a Tee.
The wierdest thing about this glitch is, it has UNLINKED comments which at one time were correctly together. NLME said he was going away for a few days, I hope he’s back soon.
I don’t apologise for the FAKE ALERT, but I am happy it turned out correct.
I put that there as there was, at that time, only one small blog mention of the booking, and we’ve seen way too much false “information” in this case. Remember the “onion” story quoting GZ he’s going back to NW despite this setback? and a few people thought it was real? I didn’t want anyone here running with it, without checking it out elsewhere first.
The glitch is not so surprising either, if we consider the last comment before it kept getting huge replies and runs to about 5 screens. Perhaps when the software decides to not give us any more “reply” buttons we should take the hint, and reply on a new post naming the poster we’re replying to.
(trying to reply to own post 21 which I wrote a a new one after # 38)
I don’t think there’s any reason to apologize or take back the “FAKE ALERT.” It didn’t seem in any way that you were trying to say anything negative about the OP, but rather just wanting to make sure to put a disclaimer out there.
I saw an even crazier rumor starting to spread on HP, and of course people started to run with it. I’m pretty lax, but the one I saw was just a bit over the top.
Was that the one from a month ago about the Zimmerman video viewing selection?
Or something else?
It may be old. I haven’t gone on HP too much; too much bickering and silly name calling, but it was one I saw being posted recently, which sounds like what you may be referring to since it’s along the lines of videos found on his computer.
Sounds like we are likely referring to the same thing.
It was posted recently, but the link was to a site which put the story up back in June, and the nature of the story was such that if there were any truth to it at all you would have heard about it by now everywhere except maybe Sesame Street.
If Katy Perry’s top was too risque for Sesame Street, this rumor most certainly would be.
I really don’t feel bad at all for GZ, considering I believe most of the shit he’s catching is from his own words/actions, but that one was too far…IMHO. Anyway, for fear of angering the comment system more, I digress.
I guess you know best. Count me out for posting anymore. Toodles!!! If I respect everyone elses posts and scenarios then I should be respected
I really do think it was just a disclaimer, and not an intentional dig at you.
Even if it was, though, don’t let one poster stop you from posting. That’s just silly. Me and my typing fingers are posting til NLME tells me to shut my trap and boots me off the blog, LOL. You should feel free to do the same. Don’t let one person on a blog get to you. Hell, you shouldn’t even let 5, 10, or 15 people on a blog get to you.
I enjoyed and respected your posts Riisey and will miss your input. I don’t know Aussie personally, but I don’t think she intentionally tried to disrespect you. I think Aussie was questioning the news source, not you as a source.
I reviewed the comment and decided not to remove it. If you want me to remove the “Fake Alert” line, I’m more than willing to but didn’t because your breaking news was confirmed moments (or was it hours?) later.
this seems to be where the glitch begins. Any NEW comment you post should slot in immediately under here. Replies to them should then work as normal.
Any replies to glitched posts are going to slot into the glitched section in random order.
The glitched area starts with
So Interesting Says:
July 29, 2012 at 1:39 pm
yeeeha ! ! now we know where, just need to find out [b] why
I feel guilty now for breaking the comment thing. I think it happened when a few of my new comments with my new pseudonym “Was So Interesting” were posted. At first they were in the right spot (that I could see anyway), but it said that they were awaiting moderation. I think NLME checked in briefly just now and may have “released” those comments, causing a breakup in the cascade. My best guess anyway. Did it seem to happen before when you guys got a new poster? @NLME feel free to delete anything I’ve posted since yesterday, it was only about our drunk friend Taaffe anyway……
@Was So Interesting
Don’t feel bad about it. I think it might get out of whack when multiple comments are being submitted at once, or when too many comments are being submitted to a comment in a thread. I commented the other day to a frequent user, and the comments broke.
It’s just a pain because then we (thanks to @aussie for finding the break!) have to find the break then NLME has to go in and delete comments as a temporary fix, which I don’t think he enjoys deleting people’s comments that they took the time to write.
the waiting moderation ……..
I think the way he set it up is, existing users don’t get moderated, we go straight on, for better flow of talk. But NEW users get moderated their first time.
If you’ve gone and changed your name, stupid WP thinks you are new. So holds you up. So maybe messes up everyone behind you.
Anyway you can use both /either names now, as the system knows you by now.
Judge Lester presiding over another SYG case.
Good grief people have gone gun crazy, there is something in the air around here. I was in a patients room today and seen this on the news.
Oh Georgie Porgie Wants out of Seminole County. He has no money for his security wahhhhwahhhhh
Maybe he shouldn’t have lied at his original bond hearing. Oh, maybe he should knock off the frivolous spending, too. He doesn’t need security detail. What a joke.
He should just come clean and steal the line from the lil rascals where spankys says”people,people we need your money”…. Does he really think his request will be branded with an air Marshall as one of his friends.. really gz really..Boo freakin woo..
@Loree, He’s extra paranoid and needs security to protect him as well as the unsuspecting public since he’s even MORE PARANOID now than ever. I’m befuddled by gun laws. A judge can order GZ to not have a bank account, but he can’t be ordered to not carry another gun?????
But seriously, there are a lot of people with pent up anger over this case or are looking for THEIR 15 min of fame. I should hope that he can be protected in order to make it to trial for justice to be properly served.
Having said that, do we actually believe people stopped giving him money altogether? It was suggested that the parents’ website was set up to circumvent the real defense fund. **** MY SPECULATION: he had a covert fund from the day of the SH interview when he had control over his website again and instructed would be donors to somehow put their money there or to hold off for the launch of the parents’ fund. That’s why so little came in overnight after the interview and is only trickling in now. Why do I get the feeling he’s got an eccentric rich donor in his back pocket somewhere? **** End of speculation
I’m just waiting til he flees.
GZ is very parnoid. I truly believe he is enjoying himself as being the center of attraction. On his Hannity interview he was so giddy it made me sick. I also think the judge made a oversight as to no guns in his second bond motion and should be corrected asap. I agree he should have protection as long as it is warranted. Death threats should be taken seriously, and be reported. Having said that, I remember BDLR asking SZ if she contacted the state office regarding those threats and she said no. If someone is threating me I would report it if I believed it was serious. As to the Black Panthers, there was only six of them out there with a sign. I mean come on, even the oringinal Black Panthers disowned them and wanted nothing to do with that faction. Also one of them was arrested on gun charges from that group of six. If I find the article I will post it for you.
I agree with the other website being set up to circumvent Omara site. I have posted this also. I think his own supporters are losing interest because they can see better now. Its hard to fight for someone like GZ when his own mouth keeps digging himself deeper.
I think SZ was caught in a lie. This family seems to love to exaggerate. She claimed to have received threats to their life, and when BDLR questioned her, and told her she should turn those over, she got an attitude. He explained if they had received threats, that was serious, and that those should be turned over to be investigated. She then starts stumbling over words and mumbling, which you can tell BDLR realizes she’s exaggerating, which is why he asked her to clarify whether they were threats or hate mail; SZ with the tone of defeat replies that it was just hate mail.
GZ’s parents claimed death threats to their life was the reason they had to leave their home. They also claimed they were outed, but I don’t remember that happening. I would like to know if anything has actually been turned over to show they were threatened.
Family of liars, IMO.
Why is so hard for them to tell something straight. Very strange people.
they must be related to my ex husband
@qetno and Loree –
Funny how the threat BDLR busted them on has now turned up as a threat that was “placed on the doorstep” instead of sent via mail, via email, or via text. So classic bull that it’s laughable.
Reminds me of the “skipping” story Zimmerman put forth after Serino busted up the “I don’t remember” statement.
Explain away… Explain away..
Thank you (AGAIN)! Added to the Update section here…
Commenter Rachel Stanley on that wesh.com article put it perfectly
“Why do you need to worry about security? What happened to God’s plan? Why you messing with it?”
JAIL might be a nice secure safe place for GZ, wouldn’t it? security at State expense, his own money untouched except for $100 a day for junk food.
God’s Plan indeed. That part is certainly to play to the gun toting christian populace. The new websites are obvious….his support has run into some difficulties. I don’t think the NRA is still looking to make him their poster boy. GZ is such a bad liar he is monotonous to listen to. I don’t need to analyze what he may be intending by inserting “skipping” into the equation, don’t entertain their insanity to re-word the murder (oops I mean’t the event). Zimmerbots believe most see the news as peripheral. In the past they would be correct, think about cases of the past…MacMartin Preschool….I assumed mean’t child molestation. As a grownup I finally researched the case to find omg……they are digging still for tunnels these elderly preschool teachers transported these children through to Las Vegas to a Satanic church of sorts where they had to drink goats blood??? I don’t think the jury needs to know exactly what happened for the ending to have occurred I think juries are smarter then we give them credit. The NRA won’t be forking over much to that effort, after all it seems to only take 10 guys with similar tales and zero forensic evidence to be convicted of child molestation. And they do not like child rapists. The mere suggestion makes them see red.
Secure not sure about safe. Ha!
I hate fueling rumors, but theGrio reported this story yesterday. I’m not posting the link but this was the title of the article, so you can go search.
“Blogger who outed ‘Witness 9′ in George Zimmerman case unmasked”
I suppose you can’t go around outing people indiscriminately and hide yourself. I sincerely hope they named the right person.
I won’t be shy — this blogger (reportedly) outed a sex abuse victim.
You’re right though — they better have gotten the right person. I assume a site like the grio would have made sure their story was 100% accurate.
You beat me to posting this, lol. I agree, though, I do hope this is the right person. Let’s hope they did their research/fact checking.
We all know this blogger’s website so I won’t name it here (so it won’t be easily linked to the witness he outed), but currently he has a VERY disturbing post on the home page that says “Go ahead, make me an outlaw”.
Hmm.. Did I mention Rupert Murdoch’s crew is under investigation in multiple countries for unscrupulously/illegally obtaining info to present as news? For some reason, your post made me think about that. Ok. Scratch that since this is probably not the same situation.
I would think the Grio may have relied on public information to obtain info about the TCTH blogger. But, I have no idea how TCTH could come to know who Witness 9 is without a leak of some sort — especially since W9 hadn’t filed a formal complaint about Zimmerman for the alleged abuse. So there couldn’t have been a public record except as evidence in this case.
If I had to guess, I would think George Zimmerman’s family and O’Mara would be in a position to leak the info about W9 to TCTH as part of their “connections” with them as advocates for Zimmerman. Could’ve just been a sloppily redacted piece of evidence TCTH received. Who knows!
In any event, if a crime was committed by the TCTH blogger and the Grio could find him, so can whoever it is in Florida that has charging authority.
O”Mara did say she’s a cousin. Not a huge step from there.
But if O”Mara knew that, he’d know a lot more, after all the defence does get the documents without all the black ink that we get. They themselves can’t attack the woman, without making GZ look even worse. So, let someone else find her and do it???
“They themselves can’t attack the woman, without making GZ look even worse. So, let someone else find her and do it???”
They don’t need to (and as far as I know don’t) recruit anyone from the outside to do stuff like that.
There seems to be no shortage of unsolicited volunteers.
On second thoughts. If her story is true, GZ would know who it is even without seeing her statement. Anon. tip to the right blog……….
Before I started looking at this case, I had no idea how much you could find from public records just sitting at home with an internet connection, and I don’t even dig that deep. Some of the wingers are good at that stuff: they outed “DeeDee” very quickly: extremely disturbing as she’s a minor. If W9’s statement established her as a relative, and gave her age in relation to GZ, a geneology site might be all you’d need to ID her.
I doubt MOM would toss a tip into the tipsy tree (I still think he wants to emerge from this case with a valid license to practice law), but I wouldn’t put it past GZ. But I’m sure he’s too busy rigging Claymores around his fortress to repell the massive frontal assault by the NBPP (all 6 of them!) to be worrying about such trivia. So I’d guess one of the coconuts figured it out for himself.
I am very pleased I could bring a little joy into your life as you and other bloggers have into mine.
Zimmerman case judge says he won’t step aside
Judge Kenneth Lester denies request by Zimmerman’s lawyer
By the CNN Wire Staff
POSTED: Aug 01 2012 09:25:45 AM EDT UPDATED: 12:36 PM Aug 01 2012
If he cannot afford to be out of jail why dont he stay in jail then and speed up the trial if he is innocent. Why have the trial next year and have Americans pay for his freedom. If his lawyer and him says he is innocent and all eviedence points to him being innocent–then speed up the trial and get it over with so he can move on. All this seems fisshy to me. Why is this death a way to get paid for the Zimmermans. It is only GZ that needs to stay in state. Can his parents not go live out of state for safety–why do they need money to live when they are not on trial? Pretty soon Shelly will have her own website along with Zimmerman sister and brothers. This is crazy..this family needs Jesus. If they want to live their life off of peoples petty then this is truly sick. The wesite goes on about how this change the entire family life. What about the Martin family? What about how it changed them. How they will never get over this situation. They will never come home and see their son again. How this situation broke them down and still have to build the strength every day to fight for Justice for their son. Giving streghth to other families in same situation. The Zimmerman family is sick from my point of view.
Quite right, Zoila. Everyone else who can’t afford to live outside waits out their trial in jail. Whoever put up the $1 mill would sleep better, too, if he was in there.
It seems at last even his supporters have slowed down supporting him. They’re not blind, they can see what he’s spending their money on… and defence doesn’t seem to be it.
His parents could safely go back and live in their house which they OWN. In fact, for all we know, they DO live in their house. I’m not aware of any media going chasing them anywhere. Maybe they should go around and check them out at “home”.
If GZ didn’t go strutting around (from 6am to 6 pm when he’s allowed out) in an obvious bullet-proof vest with armed security following him etc etc then people around where he lives would not give him a second glance. So they’d not know it’s him. So he’d be totally safe. Simple.
Judge Dismissed Motion for removal
Click to access Order%20Dismissing%20Defendant’s%20Motion%20to%20Disqualify%20Trial%20Judge.pdf
New catch phrase “Legally insufficient”.
GZ: Your honor, I honestly was going shopping without my wife at Target when I happened to see TM, I wasn’t on neighborhood watch at the time.
Judge Lester: You made yourself NW captain, you were watching. That’s legally insufficient.
GZ: Your honor, I was suspicious cuz he was walking around looking about.
Judge Lester: That’s paranoia and legally insufficient.
GZ: Your honor, since I lost sight of TM while going in the same direction, that means I wasn’t following.
Judge Lester: That’s argument is stupid and legally insufficient.
GZ: Your honor, he wasn’t afraid of me, he was just skipping away.
Judge Lester: (Giggles uncontrollably before putting his judge face back on) Did I say before your argument before was stupid? I’m sorry, let’s see…that doesn’t make sense….you’re mentally…I mean…that argument again is legally insufficient.
GZ: He kept bashing my head and I thought I was going to pass out
Judge Lester: You have two cuts on your head, don’t be a baby, that’s legally insufficient.
GZ: Judge, you’re being really unfair. I think you should recuse yourself. I’m running outta money too, and I need to get outta here!
Judge Lester: Shoulda thought of that before you lied to me! No soup for you! I mean…request denied….LEGALLY INSUFFICIENT!
Thanks God I finished the Corona BEFORE I read your comment.
Hahahahahaha! Coffee is squirting out of my nose. Goodness knows this is a very serious situation, but the abrupt giggles I just experienced from your satire was much needed. Thanks.
Its serious, but we do need a laugh every now and again in the living room.
You guys are right, this is a serious matter. I just can’t control the “troll” in me sometimes, Maybe it’s a sign of insecurity on my part, but it’s darn cheap therapy.
Thank you for that, I needed it (even if I’m not a Judge Lester fan).
We’ll just call it even on the new keyboard.
: – )
I’ve just been banned from Talkleft… (temporarily, up for review in a few days) and what a relief it is to be back here for a while. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him think. Many there believe contradictory things GZ claimed are somehow both true, even when one rules out the other. It’s maddening, and none are so blind as those who will not see.
I spent the last hour arguing with someone that says when GZ said, ” I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes, ” he reeeeeaaallly meant he was elsewhere and was unsure. Of course when asked where this “elsewhere” was, the person could not say. And of course, somehow a jury would come to see it as this vague elsewhere, too. What can you do with someone like that?
I actually LIKE talkleft forums but god knows why… the usual suspects there have dwindled down to some real winners. And whiners. The moderator is a defense lawyer and doesn’t like me, but she weeds out the total nutjobs and the racists, which elevates the level of discourse to some extent
I suspect she joined the Z-team bandwagon because she is a gun owner, a professed concealed carry permit holder herself but like any lawyer would, she’s less than thrilled by the defendant’s character and behavior since arrest. But she’s invested for the long haul and so she rides herd on her bunch like only a mother could love her demented children.
I’m fascinated by the one or two fence-sitters there but it’s like acountry boy come to town and wanting to “reform” the first prostitute he’s met…. slim chance, but boy do they try.
I think GZ is innocent until proven guilty and has a great self defense story. I just don’t fond it a credible one. What’s a gal to do?
That’s funny/weird that they banned you for having an opinion.
From what I’ve seen being warned there before, more likely for insisting the other poster “put up or shut up” ie explain reasons or evidence for his statement. Quite a lot of statements are just generally accepted there, as Willis says, without any examination of the evidence for them.
It is also interesting that NLME states that he does NOT “weed out” anyone except spammers…. and this blog does not seem to attract nutjobs at all. The couple of very one-sided posters who turned up didn’t last very long, all by themselves. I think this “self-sorting” is one of the strengths of this blog.
(Oh, trollish John B turned up on the old Map blog and responded to just about every thread there, but not getting much response to that, he’s gone again, unaware that we’ve moved on 😉 )
To (only) confirm what aussie mentioned, I’ve not deleted a single comment (unless a commenter has asked me to).
I have redacted URLs — some hastily — but this blog is as open to Zimmerman backers as it is to those actually following/deciphering the evidence presented in the case. It’s truly
shocking/amazing we only get a pro Zimmerman comment every once in awhile.
And that’s why your blog (in my honest opinion) is the best; it is precisely why I felt comfortable and assured this was the blog I wanted to post on regarding the case. I had been reading for a while. The discussion felt pretty open, and I was amazed that there were very few crazies roaming around.
Keep up the good work on the blog, NLME and everyone. 🙂
Thank you, thank you!!!
Haha, did you just take a bow, too? ;P I feel like such a suck up saying shit like that, but you deserve some praise for maintaining such a great blog…just don’t get a big ego! (Leave that up to Kanye!)
Completely random, but, in your main twit pic…you, yes?
Circa 2007/2008 in bar’s photo booth during a night of boozing. No idea why I decided to pray — I’m not religious — but I’ll blame it on the al al al al alcohol. 🙂
The HOA phone number directory would be inside his home but I guess he could have the GZ, NW, number as a saved contact number
. As to who Jon called, I thought his witness statement was only about what he saw, e.g., MMA but later recanted to something much less dramatic when FBI questioned him.
“John” — witness 6 — recanted the MMA style fighting comment.
I believe Jon — witness 13 and the picture taker — is the one Zimmerman supposedly had call Shellie.
Perhaps praying to the beer gods to bestow upon you some more deliciously wonderful alcohol? 😛
Join the club! Wear it as a badge of reasonableness. LOL
I guess I may be having an effect on lurkers but the hardcore GZ true believers at talkleft, the regular posters are willfully unable to keep an open mind, it’s bewildering to me. To them this guy is somehow always allowed an excuse for his inconsistencies and (to me) clear lies.
But yes, I feel no shame in being banned for speaking truth to idiots, or to the “power” of the moderator.
Eyes are getting bleary
Good Night good people….
Have an early day tomorrow…
Lester knows O’mara can appeal but is unlikely to win; O’mara must know this too. GZ is running the show I’d say if he appeals.
Totally agree! And I think there will be an appeal because I do think GZ is running the show. You’d think at some point GZ would learn to stop being an idiot and just shut his mouth!
Aloha! I’ve been lurking on this and related sites for months, but this is by far the best and friendliest of the communities tracking the Zimmerman case. So I wonder if I can share a couple pet theories and get your thoughts?
1. At ~3:10 into GZ’s police call, as he’s telling dispatch how to find his truck, I think I hear him say (under dispatch’s crosstalk) that his keys are in the truck. Indeed, as he’s exiting the truck, I hear the door gong, suggesting keys left in the ignition. The keychain found near the T, where GZ claims he was beaten, holds only a remote control, a Honda key, and a mini flashlight. That screams spare key to me. He tells W13 not to bother dialing 911 but to call his wife. Yet the pic of his bloody head shows him on the phone with someone. It appears Osterman was at a nearby bank’s ATM at 6:38pm, and he told the FBI he was at the crime scene.
Here’s my theory: Osterman saw TM (who “matched the description” of burglars) entering the neighborhood as he himself drove to GZ’s house. He informed GZ when he arrived, and GZ sprang into batman mode, locating TM at the mailboxes. After the shooting, GZ called Osterman and tells him to get Shellie’s spare key and drop it near the T, knowing Osterman can wander about the crime scene with ease. He also tells Osterman to have Shellie drive his truck home using the key left in the ignition. Osterman complies, partially out of guilt for getting GZ into a mess [and “massages” witnesses, and shepherds GZ through every interrogation, and lets them live with he and his wife for 6wks, etc, for the same reason). But now that Shellie will almost certainly turn state’s evidence, and GZ appears wholly unpredictable, Osterman is also likely to turn state’s evidence to avoid an obstruction charge (or accessory after if Corey is mean). What say you? If you agree, would this attempted cover-up complete the “depraved mind” evidence?
2. In the 3rd and final interrogation, using GZ’s account, Serino times GZ’s walk from RVC to the location of his attack (~30ft) at 84s, which should have taken 10s for someone of GZ’s height. These are the last 84s of the call. Of course, they didn’t have TM’s phone records at the time, which add another 79-139s more (imprecise because cellphone records round down) between the time GZ’s call ended and TM’s call with DD ended. So there’s at least 3mins leading up to the confrontation that are unaccounted for in GZ’s account, when he says he’s walking the 30ft from RVC directly toward his truck. W2 thought she saw someone running south to north toward the T during this time.
Here’s my theory: Well of course he’s searching for TM the whole time, from the moment he left his truck until he found him. He most likely found TM “near his dad’s house” by running up TTL or RVC, then chased him back down the dog walk. But GZ is *certainly* searching for TM at some point during the 3mins+ just prior to the confrontation. What say you? Is there a bigger lie in his story? And while there are plenty of others, is this lie alone sufficient to defeat his self-defense claim?
Please forgive me if I’ve overlooked or failed to credit something written in this or other discussions here. Any and all feedback is appreciated, thanks!
Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting. I agree with basically everything you said. The things I don’t fully agree with…
The keys probably weren’t left in the ignition. The chime we hear is the result of leaving a Honda Ridgeline’s headlights on — either in the on or parking light position — and not a result of the keys being left in the ignition.
Zimmerman says, “They’ll see my truck” around the 3:10 mark. Well, that’s what I heard in the version that commenter Tchoupi isolated and slowed down. Who knows though…
Thanks, NLME. He mentions his keys immediately after “They’ll see my truck”, but there’s crosstalk so it’s not clear. I do remember seeing that info about the headlights, so I stand corrected there. Any idea whether or how the Ridgeline chimes when a driver’s door is opened with keys in the ignition?
I’m not sure but highly prefer not listening to more YouTube clips of used car salesmen peddling Honda Ridgelines. Hahaha. 🙂
Zimmerman clearly mentions something like “they’ll see my truck” at one point during the call to police. If Tchoupi isolated and slowed down the mark you’re referencing, there is chatter from the dispatcher and Zimmerman could — in my opinion — be heard again saying something about “see my truck.”
I didn’t hear “keys in my truck” but I could definitely be wrong — it’s a matter of interpreting a fast paced/interrupted conversation. Do you have a slowed down/isolated version by any chance?
@NLME No, I listened at normal speed, no enhancement. You’re right, the mention of keys is a matter of interpretation w/o some filtering applied.
He says “The keys are in the ignition.”
Which doesn’t mean that they are.
The words, “The keys are in the..” are quite clear. While the last word is a bit muddled, it has more than one syllable, and does not begin or end with anything sharp like a ‘t’ or a ‘k’. In fact, the middle syllable “nish” is pretty clear, and the short syllable following is something you can trail off, like an “n” or “m”. There’s no hard consonant at the beginning of the mystery word, explained best in context by the fact that the word begins with a vowel. So really, all we’ve lost under the crosstalk is the “g” sound.
If you’re hearing anything else, you might want to get better headphones, or make an appointment with an audiologist 🙂
I must have missed any mention of keys – do you have a clearer audio recording than Tchoupi’s?
Aloha aloha NLME and thank you for this blog…. If we only had the car!! I feel we have been cheated or bamboozled by the corrupt SPD or hope that the prosecution will bring out their (excuse the expression yikes) big guns at trial. The crime begins inside his truck and the most maddening part of any and all docs and evidence put out is their insane lack of times and time stamps. Even the pathetic re-enactment has no time/date stamp so when the detective pulls away from 1950 RVC and says action I just want to punch him in the face. What camcorder like device doesn’t display a time and date stamp. When i watched the very hard to find part 1 of this video I noticed the female detective mentioned the night before he had pointed out seeing TM at 1440 RVC not Taaffe’s. Also regarding Frank The voicemail left by GZ says “hello Mr. Taaffe, sorry about your son” what kind of friend calls his buddy Mr. Taaffe, and not have shared condolences of a suicide of buddy’s kid who died 4 years earlier. As appalling as Taaffe comes off he mentions 2 words never uttered by any GZ or relative or supporter which made me pause. In his interview with Soledad he comes across as a moron i.e. neighbor-HOOD, but also uses Trayvon’s first name and says at one point it’s a tragedy. In his statement to Police (which is obviously Taaffe) he says he did not know GZ on a personal level. Yet credits GZ with stopping a robbery of his home which he insists is documented on 2-2-12. I can find no burglary call or report of said incident.
Here is a copy of all calls GZ made to NEN and or 911 from 8/2004 thru 2/2012. The incident you are looking for is page 47.
Click to access george-zimmermans-911-call-history1.pdf
I fully agree with everything you mentioned.
I love that Taaffe told the FBI that Zimmerman and he didn’t know each other on a personal level. That’s going to be fairly easy to debunk.
Taffe tell Soledid there were 8 reports plus his, of robberies all by black males. Well, I just looked at list and not all calls describe black men. On p. 43 there is a complaint about a white male shaved head. Don’t think this is robber though. Just another skinhead verbally threatening a resident. Hope that neighborhood is on high alert for all wm/shaved heads. Oh yeh, wonder how skinheads feel when their choice of hairstyle is highlighted by police dispatcher? Talking to you George. No other descriptions specify any type of hair style but the shaved head, that is noted by complainant.
For Soldad interview w/ Frank Taaffee. @3min. mark
Welcome to NLME’s blog!
If anyone dropped the keys at the T intentionally, it would have to be GZ. W13, Jon, notes the keychain with flashlight being on the ground when he arrives outside shortly after the shot. He took a picture of it on his phone. T. Smith arrived on the scene not long after, which is when GZ had this witness call his wife. MO with SZ didn’t show up til later, so they weren’t on scene immediately. It’s uncertain of their involvement, if any. Many here think there was a likely tip off; GZ was NW after all and TM “fit the description.” Who is the tip off? SZ, MO, FT…there’s a number of options. You’d think if MO was on scene (I don’t think he was there until after), someone would have noticed him fleeing then coming back.
Personally, I’d really like to know all what was said to SZ when she was called. Was she told the location? If not, why? Was it because she already knew? GZ also discussed calling his wife on scene in interrogation, and something that caught me as weird was he said something along the lines of no she wouldn’t be worried then goes off into a tangent about his friend being with her, which is how she came to pick up the vehicle. Why does he want to get off the topic of calling SZ so quickly and why does he feel the need to offer up that MO was the reason she was able to get the truck? This aspect just bothers me!
As for your 2nd part, I believe GZ claimed he stayed out of the truck for so long because he didn’t want to be surprised for TM. Here’s a question thought for anyone who hung in this far with my comment:
The Aurora shooter, James Holmes, was charged with 24 counts of murder even though 12 died; 12 counts because he had the intent to kill and an additional 12 counts because he showed depravity by entering the theater with the guns. That is how I understood the 24 counts. I think GZ following TM with a gun is primarily what got him M2 charges…he may not have had the intent, but by getting out of his vehicle and following while armed showed depravity along with having the thought that TM was a criminal. GZ may not have had malice personally towards TM, but he did towards criminals, which he expressed on his 911 call, etc. TM never implemented deadly force AND GZ did not appear to attempt all reasonable means to stop the attack prior to shooting. Lethal force was his first method. I don’t see how he doesn’t get convicted. Paranoia is not reasonable fear!
qetno, thanks very much for the post-shooting timeline. That’s important and requires me to rethink. Has the flashlight picture taken by Jon been made public? If so, where? Thanks again.
The only picture made public from Jon M. (W13) is the photo of GZ’s bloody head where it can be seen he’s on the phone. This witness took 2 other pictures. I should say the flashlight photo has been debated because I think it was unclear whether the photo was the flashlight at the T or the larger flashlight closer to TM’s body. It is clear in W13’s statement, though, that he noted the keychain with flashlight on at the T when he came around the corner from the front after the shot. I would think that’d be the flashlight he’d take a photo of considering it’s the only piece of evidence up near the northern most part.
California Almonds, welcome. We have ~4000 comments here, so don’t expect you to keep up with all of them 😉
Witness 13 Jonathan who took the bloody head photo also took 2 others, which have not been published. He did supply copies to the police. One was the small keychain flashlight, the other a picture of Trayvon’s body also showing the larger flashlight nearby. This is from some statement by the officer who took possession of these pics, from Jonathan’s computer.
The issue of the chimes when GZ gets out of the car has been thoroughly looked at. It is from the headlights being left on, regardless of keys being there or not. The lights time out and go off in 15 seconds.
While Osterman is a likely candidate for providing the tip-off, there’s no evidence he was told or asked to do any covering up, especially at the scene.
Everything in this case comes down to TIMING down to split seconds. Luckily we have taped phone calls galore. So we know when something like the key-light was first seen in relation to the time of the shooting. So that constrains when it may have gotten there, which in turn constrains who may have placed/dropped it.
Each tiny item of evidence has several explanations, each possible to varying degrees in themselves. The true explanation will be the one that is the best fit for the overall narrative, ie the explanation that does not make a lie of the next explanation for the next item.
GZ never in any statement mentions using the key/light, so it is wide open how and when it got there. It still has to be sometime between exiting the car and the first witness seeing it.
Do we know for a fact that the flashlight photo is of the keychain penlight and not of the bigger flashlight?
If so, can you provide a link?
Sorry, I cannot find the link. We never saw the pictures. We did have an evidence item listing what the other 2 pictures were, which the police got from Jonathan’s computer. One was the small keychain flashlight. The other was a picture of Trayvon’s body with the large flashlight alongside. The only published one is the one of the bloodied head.
In this interview he mentions the pictures he took.
Incidentally W13 describes TM as wearing a dark(blue?) hoodie and a white t-shirt underneath. 19:18 on second interview tape
GZ was NOT arrested up near the T, so could not have dropped the key when putting his hands up. He and Jon W13 walked back to near the body, where Jon took the last photo, before the police arrived. The keychain light was already on the ground when Jon first came into the scene.
And for those of you who think it may have dropped when he put up his hands..okay, why would he have it in his hands and on? what would he be looking for just after the shooting? especially up near the T?
Okay, how about a link to the “evidence item listing what the other 2 pictures were”?
Thanks, aussie. Good info and logic there. Yes, I’m fairly certain the keychain was dropped afterwards to widen the crime scene, but I’m rethinking who may have placed it there. I’m also fairly certain the keys he used to drive are still in his truck, so I can’t figure out why he’d be carrying a spare. The keychain flashlight is obviously one that works (as opposed to the tactical), but why take it along with the tactical? Questions, questions, questions.
I think Zimmerman was apprehended at the T and dropped his keychain flashlight there when receiving orders to raise his hands.
I disagree, Almonds.
Let’s try and keep to K.I.S.S. and not complicate things.
The reason he’d have the small one IS because it’s the one he just took out of the ignition and put in his pocket. When the Tactical (supposedly) died on him he produced the one attached to the key.
The only question is WHEN did he produce it — early on while still on the phone? at the T when the big one died? after the event? if after, right away to search for something (his gun, his phone etc)? or for the purpose of misdirection by planting it near the T? or a combination?
@aussie But if the key found at the T is the one he took from the ignition, then why would GZ say at 3:10 into his call that his keys were in the ignition? The only way to square this circle is to conclude that he grabbed the spare key, the one found at the T, not for the key itself but for the flashlight on it. He intentionally carried two flashlights out of his truck. That would go a long way to proving that the reason he left his truck was to locate TM.
@ Cal Almonds (love the name), don’t know what you were talking about before, but just regarding the “keys in the ignition”. I don’t think that’s a proven fact GZ said that. While some here have heard something about keys, other people on this post heard completely different things such as “once you’re by my truck” (that’s what I think, since he was giving directions to where he was; like, once you’re by my truck you’ll see a cut-through walkway,etc), or “a honda ridgeline that’s my truck” (I think aussie thought that because GZ says that in the re-enactment video). So, just wanted to clarify that it’s still up for debate.
As with “John,” I have a feeling that Jon’s going to hate being on the stand too. He definitely didn’t forget about those pictures as they were loaded from a CD rom (per the spinning noise heard in his recorded statement) and not his hard drive.
Thanks Loree, how did I miss this? I have been printing out documents regarding this case since it went public, but sometimes I notice they are ever changing.In the initial burglary documents for this community before any evidence was put out after he was charged I was amused to see units burglarized such as Chris Oliveiri whose list began with a 46″ Sony Bravia flat screen TV then a long list of jewelry and even a work station? Strange to haul out this particular load without a moving van.
The moving van was stolen before it could be loaded, Ha!
Have you seen tchoupi you tube. She/he has done amazing work!
I’ve seen tchoupi on here only; highly impressive work. I’ll have to find the YT channel. Thanks for the tip!
tchoupi has an imgur file with a lot of interesting maps, witness locations and clubhouse lights analysis
I have no youtube! What are you talking about?
@tchoupi Ya, I went looking and couldn’t find you there. Too bad. Your work is way beyond the call and is one of the things that brought me here. Thank you!
The headlights do not have to be on for the chime to go off. In fact there are three modes: 1) off, 2) parking, & 3) headlight.
For the chime to go off you have to be in either 2 or 3 when you open the door
My comments don’t post? Trying again. GZ says to Det. Singletary ” I asked cop if I could call my wife, he said no so I asked nice man to call wife and my friend mark cause he was there” .
This is on you tube tape of GZ interview before DNA swab when he is trying to establish rapport w/ lady detective.
I just think there is something there w/ GZ assuming, apparently rightly, Mark Osterman would be willing to extend himself so much. MO comes to scene, then to police station until 3am, then allows them move into his home for 6 weeks while uproar just builds and builds. Stays off of media. All this while only being married for 2 yrs. (per his FB) and pre any payment for security services.
Please post links to any media you reference in posts (e.g. YouTube vids).
At 6:25:04 (minute/second mark)
I knew I should have done that..it’s just above my skill level but hopefully this is it it’s interview on2/27 after DNA guy leaves room but before voice guy comes in. He says his wife is a mess..then explains nice man called his wife and she came over w/ his friend Mark who was there.
I’ll link in the future. Thanks to everyone
Good catch !!
One thing I don’t understand why he said she called MO who was there. If Mo was with Shellie why did he say she called him. Why call someone who is suppose to be in your house with your wife. Is this another hidden nugget to suggest MO was with GZ, and knew he would go back to his house when things started going south?
@Loree, it has not been established in any concrete way that MO was at GZ’s house with Shellie, has it? We can speculate here, but I think logically in that conversation, he’s tells the officer that Shellie called “my buddy Mark…who was there (he gestures behind him when he says this)”. It makes sense to me that he is telling her that’s the name of the guy that either came to the scene or was at the police station where Singleton might have seen him with Shellie.
MO in his statement to the police said she called him. BUT…. maybe she called him from the next room “hey Mark he’s gone and shot somebody”.
He might not want it know he was there all along, to be suspected of being the one to give the tip-off. I really do think he said it in casual talk, not as an urgent tip-off, and was shocked by how it turned out. I think he feels the guilt and responsibility that GZ should be feeling, for his little accidental part in setting this tragedy in motion.
hey I”m being the good cop here, ADMIT SOMETHING already………
That interpretation of “called” would be a stretch — even by Zimmerman’s standards. I.e. Trayvon “skipped” away.
Awesome find! George says, “She called my buddy Mark” that “was there” (presumably on scene). I missed that entirely.
I may be wrong but I’d swear I hear GZ say: “she TOLD my buddy Mark who was there” and not “CALLED”.
The first times I listened I also thought “called” but I had a doubt and on listening more times and placing the speaker in a chamber to make the sound clearer I at least hear “told”. Perhaps someone with better tack can check it better than me but if correct it would even make more sense if by “…who was there” GZ meant “who was at my house”.
If it is “told” and MO was at GZ’s house then the spiel he gave Hannity about “WE” always go to target Sundays after “mentoring” is a bit strange as he was, according to all accounts I recall so far, going to Target alone that night, and it would appear leaving his wife at home with MO (with or w/o his spouse). Strange again as I don’t recall MO saying anything in his statement about being at GZ’s home that night, but then perhaps he did and I have it all mixed up… trying to keep up with too many blogs me thinks!
And, of course, Osterman told the FBI that Shellie called him. If that call isn’t seen in her phone logs — have those been entered as evidence yet? — then he lied to the FBI.
Then I reckon I must be wrong because I can’t believe they would be THAT stupid!
It sounds to me like “told” because he uses the word “call” several times and it is always dragged out, ” cawwll” and this swallowed word is very short.
I’ve been telling y’all for weeks MO was THERE. The bank video shows he was in the area at 6.40 pm. From the time of the call to SZ until GZ was driven from the scene, he would have had to be speeding the whole way from Lake Mary to get there in time to talk to GHZ, which he says he did in his statement.
From the timing of his leaving the bank, he is in a clear position to see TM leaving the Orlando Ave roadway towards the shortcut that comes out beside Taaffe’s house.
We have no evidence GZ saw TM until he was at the mailboxes. This means he did not see him emerge from the shortcut. That in turn means he was not there at ~6.45 – 6.55 which is when TM got to the mailboxes as per DeeDee. Tchoupi’s light analysis shows GZ cruising up and down RVC before turning into TTL and stopping at the mail, just before making the NEN call, at 7.09.
This indicates there was no big “catch a nigga” conspiracy between GZ and MO, because he did not tell GZ about what he’d seen as soon as he arrived. He did not tell him until at least 10 minutes later. So it must have been in casual conversation “oh by the way, saw a Goon heading this way …..”. This to me is a lot more likely than his telling GZ the moment he arrived and GZ quietly doing nothing about it for quarter of an hour.
Taaffe only comes into it because of a previous incident there, which GZ uses in great detail to pretend it was this time, as a way to claim it was an accidental sighting on his way to the shops. He states he’s in a hurry so decided to just call it in, as a way to fast-forward the action to the clubhouse area, which is where it actually truly started.
“coons”, “goons”, “punks”, “poinks”, “ponkes”?
“called”, “cawled”, “colled”, “told”?
Can you point me to the transcripts you heard “told” on?
Also, where did you get the highly offensive phrase “catch a nigga” from since you’ve said you don’t switch between dialects of southern people and northern people in the U.S. and therefore rely on transcripts? Cite, please.
I find this comment really out of character for you and a little disturbing. I could understand this cite coming from an American that is familiar with dialects and culture here. Maybe you’re a good learner of other cultures?
As previously stated, I don’t know you.
However, I will miss Riissey’s input and I wish you would have chosen to diffuse the conflict rather than stick to a Murdochian-style non-apology. Communication is two-way and you are not superior to Riissey. I don’t know Riissey either, but I am hurt for her understanding of what you chose to say to her without explaining that it wasn’t a personal attack.
You could have respected her contributions to the discussion without being brutal and perhaps you could have shown a modicum of sensitivity towards a fellow human being — even if she may be American. I suffer the same brutal fact-finding fault as you, but I hope I don’t offend people to the point of having them shut down communication. It would be counter-productive to understanding other people’s perspectives and points they could lead us to.
Do Canadians believe “catch a nigga” is acceptable for posting internationally? Do the Chinese this? How about Russians? Iranians and Iraqis? What aybout Afghanistan? Why do you feel it’s all good to NOT apologize to Americans when you label them gullible once they have shown the info is correct?
So Jon took the photo of the back of GZ’s head, which shows GZ using his phone. Then GZ asked Jon to call Shellie after Smith arrived. So who was GZ calling when Jon took the photo? (He may have only been TRYING to call someone, getting a busy or a voicemail. )
But, one way or the other, from where the picture was taken, Jon would have been close enough to hear GZ’s end of the conversation, if there was one, or to hear that GZ said nothing before hanging up, if that’s what happened.
But does Jon say anything about GZ’s call (or attempted call) in any of his statements? I haven’t checked, but I’m guessing ‘no’.
*whonoze utters daily Zimmerman case scream of anguish*
Daily Scream of Anguish sounds like a good name for a band, a blog, or a soap opera.
No, Jon W13 says nothing and he’d not be asked as it would only be hearsay anyway.
When he offered to call 911 GZ told him no need, he just spoke to them. However that call was NOT to the police as it would have been released in the evidence tapes by now. Clearly wasn’t to Shellie either. Well actually it might have been her and she was talking to someone else so the phone was engaged or went to voicemail.
IF it was to MO, either he didn’t get through, OR he asked for SZ to be called additionally, to cover the fact that he’d already called somebody who was WITH HER. Likelier I’d say he didn’t get through, if it was MO he called.
Jon also didn’t volunteer, and was not asked, what details he’d given SZ or how she reacted to the news. So we have no line on how she knew where to go. However if GZ just left home a short time ago to follow a tip-off, she’d know he was on the estate somewhere, and by then she’d have heard the sirens, so not hard to guess where to look.
@whonoze, “So Jon took the photo of the back of GZ’s head, which shows GZ using his phone. Then GZ asked Jon to call Shellie after Smith arrived. So who was GZ calling when Jon took the photo?
*whonoze utters daily Zimmerman case scream of anguish* ”
I just listened to the 3 audio recorded statements JonW13 made http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
There are so many things about JonW13’s statements that made me scream in anguish too, and he’ll be the one having a lot of ‘splainin’ to do as well. Either he’s really bad at telling when things happened, there’s an x-files type of missing timewarp, or he’s lying by omission about what else he might have done that night. So good luck trying to get him to fess up enough to get the facts straight.
1) FEB 26: Short recording made with SPD same night of the shooting. This should be the most accurate since it’s fresh in his memory right? There, he says that GZ told him he had already called 911, and then asked Jon to please call his wife. Then a couple of minutes later, the police came. This implies that Jon called his wife within the “couple of minutes” until the police came. If he didn’t actually call until later, then what the heck was he doing in that time? We know he had the time to snap pictures and talk about guns….
2) March 20 with FDLE: In this statement, he says he called Shellie after the police were there. Other details, he heard then saw GZ was already on the phone when Jon came out and saw the back of GZ’s bloody head when he knelt down on the sidewalk. That’s kinda weird until of course, we find out later that’s when he took the photo. Question is, who’s idea was it to take the picture? Seems like GZ was already concerned about how bloody he looked. Did GZ kneel down to pose for the picture? Other jarring details, Jon describes TM’s clothes as a dark blue hoodie with a white shirt underneath and calf-length shorts. We know TM wasn’t wearing shorts, so how did TM’s pantlegs ride up on his legs that made him think they were long shorts? ******The GOTCHA question: At the 9:30 min mark of this interview, he was asked if he remembered how TM’s hands were positioned. Jon pauses and very quietly answers “I don’t remember”. He took a picture of the BODY!!! I’m sure he didn’t stand 10 yards away to take that picture. The investigators were clearly wanting to know if he can corroborate GZ’s claim that he was on top of the body spreading the hands to try and restrain him, yet Jon says GZ was already walking when he came out. *****Other points: didn’t know if it was one shot or two shots, or if it was a yell then a shot or vice versa. In this statement, he makes no mention of talking about guns with GZ.
***THEORY***: I think Jon touched the body, maybe helped GZ try and restrain TM or to look for TM’s imaginary weapon. Only later when he realized that “helping GZ” do anything that night would put him in the doghouse with the media and the law (tampering!), that he couldn’t say anything about it.
3) MARCH 26 with FDLE/prosecutor: This interview really irritates me. The sole purpose of the interview was to get Jon to describe GZ’s manner as non-chalant. In the previous interview Jon said that he was being long-winded when he called Shellie, so GZ told him “Just tell her I shot somebody”. As in “stop jabbering and just tell her I shot somebody.” Of course we know that normal human beings in real self-defense situations would be shaken, and GZ’s an emotional oddball. BUT that doesn’t mean the prosecutor should lead a witness into describing something that is very subjective. ARGGGHHHHH!
Well, would you look at what granny just did!! One atta girl for me.
Believe it or not, this is my first time watching his statements on video. As we already saw during bond hearing 1, Zimmerman’s going to be a train wreck if he ever takes the stand during the trial. What a fumbling, bumbling idiot on video.
It’s been asked repeatedly but has it ever been explained how Jon knew Shellie’s number? It seems disrespectful to an officer if Zimmerman was told he couldn’t call Shellie but instead instructed Jon to call a certain number and pass along info, correct?
And, I totally missed Zimmerman mentioning his friend Mark when listening to the audio files. Nice catch…
HOA phone directory would be my guess.
Interesting. Jon had the HOA phone info on him?
I haven’t listened to Jon’s witness statement yet. Does he mention calling Shellie or does only Zimmerman say that Jon called Shellie?
NLME says did Jon have HOA phone info on him. Directory would be inside his home but he could have NW phone contact saved on his cell.
Did he mention calling Shellie? Not sure. I thought his statement was only on what he saw and then, of course, amended under FBI questioning.
Remember , he initially described it as ‘it was a MMA cage fight’..wait, oh, I meant it was two guys doing patty cake…My bad?
“John” — witness 6 — recanted the MMA style fighting comment.
I believe Jon — witness 13 & the picture taker — is the one Zimmerman supposedly had call Shellie.
Saw this on you tube…IMHO, good display.
And tchioupi, sorry my mistake as to you being on you tube. I thought that’s where I saw your incredible work.
Nice link. I like the end line.
Now, THAT’s what I’m talking ’bout! And the author of the video sums it up quite accurately at the end of that video, too.
Jonathan called Shellie and did the head-photo etc. He also asked GZ did he use the 9mm or the 45, so clearly knows GZ so would likely know the phone number. He DID ring, he stated later GZ seemed casual and matter of fact about the “just tell her I shot someone” like it was no big deal. He has not been asked to give statements about what he said to Shellie.
How about this….GZ told Jon his phone number, only has to give him 4 digits they live in the same area code, obviously. Gotta love the sleuthing minds here though! (I say that with affection of course).
The only interview I heard of Jon’s is when he was turning over the pics. Didn’t Jon say he didn’t know who Zimmerman was during that interview?
I could be wrong and haven’t read or listened to any of Jon’s other statements in full. Or, was the interview I’m referencing with the pics the only recorded statement?!? If so, investigators definitely need a follow-up conversation or two with Jon.
No longer Mass emailing asks:’Didn’t Jon say he didn’t know GW”? Yes, and GW says ‘nice man whom I didn’t know called my wife and she called / told MO and they drove over together. She knew about shooting within 5 minutes”.
Totally agree. Just commented same above since I hadn’t read this far down. I think buddy Mark Osterman’s being there solves several mysteries. He is probably who Smith heard Zimmerman telling he cried for help and nobody came to help him, too.
You raise a good point. But, now that we have cell phones, the local extensions don’t matter as much. You can get pretty much whatever tel area code or prefix you want. Somebody would either have to guess you’ve got a local or, alternatively, know/be told what the tell is.
I kind of assumed GZ gave his cellphone for Jonathan Manalo (W13) to call his wife.
That makes sense.
I’ve never had a police officer tell me not call somebody but if that happened and I instructed an onlooker to call my wife with my phone, I’d expect some sort of repercussion.
” I’ve never had a police officer tell me not call somebody but if that happened and I instructed an onlooker to call my wife with my phone, I’d expect some sort of repercussion.”
All that bar hopping you do, not once, really? 🙂 GZ may have asked if it was OK, but most likely the officer let trusty old Jon with his handy phone out to just call for GZ . The officer rightly just didn’t want the suspect (probably handcuffed by now) sitting there chatting it up when he just shot somebody a few minutes before. But if he OK’d Jon calling, then that tells you that the police had a certain comfort level with GZ and believed his story already. In hindsight, we know that was sloppy. Heck, they’re quite liberal with phone calls down there considering he sat on the phone all day in jail, too!
I am sure the “no” did not mean he was not to communicate his predicament to his wife.
He just did not want to have to un-handcuff GZ to let him make a phone call. Or a stranger stand close enough to hold the phone to his ear.
Nothing to say he didn’t say to Jon “just hit redial” or “it’s speed-dial 3” or some such, an irrelevant detail nobody would have to give in evidence. No need to search for conspiracies or mysteries even in a simple phone call, we have enough real mysteries to unravel.
But do we know for certain that Zimmerman had handed his phone off to someone else?
Did that happen before or after he was handcuffed?
He’s got to know that the police are going to disarm him, detain him, and segregate him until they figure out what’s happened.
Why would he hand off his phone, never knowing when or if he’ll get it back?
Is there any benefit to him to have the phone out of his possession?
Does his phone record video or audio?
I am very curious who Witnesses 4, 7, and 10 are. I think those are the numbers. These are listed as witnesses, but no statements have been released from them. Any guesses? Comments?
Number 4 is Austin’s mom Cheryl Brown
Number 7 is Brandi Green
Number 10 not released as of yet.
So now we’ve got everybody but witness 10?
Is Witness 10 Cynthia Wibker, the HOA secretary that lives on RVC near Taaffe? She was one of 6 “named” witnesses in the recent release.
@Was So Interesting
No. CW is W42, I believe. 10 is unknown. I’m really thinking it’s Chad Green.
Thanks QETNO, you’re right.
Yep, I think QETNO is right Chad Green. But I hoping that it is a witness who saw the whole thing, or at least the start of it.
“But I hoping that it is a witness who saw the whole thing, or at least the start of it.”
Nowadays everybody video-records everything everywhere, but not a scrap of useful video from that night. : – (
What kind of neighborhood is that, anyway. Everybody hears somebody screaming, could be a neighbor in trouble, nobody goes out, nobody sticks a camcorder out the window, but a gun goes off and here they come, but still no camcorder, just one guy too busy asking about ammo and using his iPhone camera to make sure there’s an ambulance on the way.
I don’t know when all the evidence is required to be entered as such but…
Was Serino’s suggestion that Trayvon recorded everything being used as a tactic to get Zimmerman to tell the truth? Or, is there video we haven’t seen yet?
Speaking of video, when will the dashboard cam videos from responding officers be released? How about video from inside Smith’s patrol car?
At the time Serino said it I don’t think they’d been able to get into Martin’s cell phone, so it was probably just a bluff.
I wonder if they ever did get into it and find anything.
I also wonder what it was that within about only a week caused Tracy Martin to balk at letting them get into his son’s phone.
If the police could have gotten to the young lady before either Crump or Bernie DLR…
I used to know the name of the model of Samsung cell phone Martin had, and would recognize it if I saw it again, but can’t remember it right now, so I can’t look up the specs to see what recording capability, if any, it has.
But considering that his phone battery was apparently running on fumes…
I’d like to see police video that shows where and pointed which way Zimmerman’s truck was parked.
H*11, I’d like to see any video from that night that shows anything that can just be seen and doesn’t have to be deciphered with a trig table and a stopwatch.
Except for guys standing around behind crime scene tape staring at each other and kind of shuffling their feet really slowly.
That I’ve already seen.
I think it was a tactic on Serino’s part. Patience my friend, go have a beer, Corona’s on me!!!
Unitron, you have such a way with words. : ^ )
“I hoping” that too! Sorry, couldn’t resist. I know that’s a typo (I make lots of them, goodness knows!!)
I hoping I not sound like Hop Sing.
: – )
@ unitron, um luv ya but I gotta refer you to a video QETNO put in post #23 in the other thread
So you think Osterman video’ed the whole thing?
Or just that him being at the ATM proves something more than that he was at the ATM?
Or do you think that Osterman looks like someone from the old “Bonanza” series?
Maybe a smidge like Hoss…
@Unitron. you said “So you think Osterman video’ed the whole thing? Or just that him being at the ATM proves something more than that he was at the ATM? Or do you think that Osterman looks like someone from the old “Bonanza” series? Maybe a smidge like Hoss… ”
Not sure if you were replying to me, but earlier when I said that I was “hoping that too”, I was responding to Loree’s comment about hoping somebody seeing the start of the fight that we don’t know about. I’m the last person on blog I think to still doubt that it’s Osterman in the bank video. If you shaved George Costanza completely bald and put a few pounds on him, he’d look like the guy in the bank video. I don’t know, maybe the glasses are throwing me off, but to me Osterman has beadier eyes and a pointier chin than that dude. But the video is very grainy so who knows..
Typos my middle name….
I am obsessed apparently I was re-reading comments back around May15th. I am just curious if the poster Daniel is still posting here. I may be coming from left field but what I found interesting about his posts were he claimed to have been in between jobs and worked for the TSA. The more of his posts I read the more it felt like I was reading Mark Osterman’s postings…and the thing about the showers in his office/gym building was kinda creepy.
As I recall, his opinions sounded exactly like what the defense’s argument will be during the trial. I mean, exactly. So, not overdramatic or weird like your typical Zimmerman supporter. I don’t think he fared too well when challenged (but could be wrong).
What’s up about the showers in his office/gym building? I missed something, lol.
*crosses fingers this isn’t the comment that breaks the comments on this thread*
“*crosses fingers this isn’t the comment that breaks the comments on this thread*”
I laughed. Well, unless your comment ends up breaking the comments on this thread. 🙂
It was something about the women’s showers always being locked, while the men’s were open. Something about this saying that men cannot be trusted, or some such, and how he felt shocked and/or insulted by this. or it was “profiling” all men. It was strange.
He may come back, or not. A lot of people only visit for a day or two.
Spoiler alert. Many of us are arriving at the truth. Here is a good hypothesis for the scuffle:
DeeDee says someone pushed Trayvon. This is George grabbing Trayvon with some kind of locking hold. GZ will hold on to Trayvon for the duration. He has him by the arm, leg, or clothes. It’s where the key ring flashlight was found. This lunge and grasp is why GZ dropped his little flashlight while it was still on. It also knocked Trayvon’s headset or phone into the grass but they are still attached to Trayvon.
DeeDee hears Trayvon say, “Get off, get off.” He is telling GZ to let go of him. Trayvon is still standing. GZ is not on top of him at this point, just holding on to him.
Witness 11, Jennifer says she hears the scuffle along the sidewalk and it sounds like a group. Here Trayvon starts to drag George across the concrete. Now, how could he drag 200 lbs? Well, they both go together but it is Trayvon who wants to get away back to the south. All of GZ’s injuries come in this 40 foot drag. His head might have even taken one of Trayvon’s knees to his nose. But GZ won’t let go. He won’t let this asshole get away. Jeremy, w20 says the scuffle lasts 20 seconds. Trayvon is on the sidewalk. George is being dragged on the edge of the sidewalk an partly on the grass. DeeDee hears the grass sound as the phone (headset) is being dragged along over the grass.
Why does it sound like a group? Imagine the exertion Trayvon is making. Maybe a few grunts. Imagine the injuries in the way of long scrapes and scratches GZ is getting. Maybe a few groans. And w11 specifically mentions hearing grass and concrete involved. Other than that, there is no crying or screams for “Help” yet. These two are totally focused on their scuffle and haven’t thought of bystanders yet.
This long drag started at the key ring flashlight location and ended up in the north east corner of John’s yard. This is why the remainder and the murder were at the joining of that grass and sidewalk. It’s because Trayvon was going home down the sidewalk. He just ran out of gas so to speak.
Well, this set GZ off in anger. Can you believe a goon injured him like this? The mighty George of the Jumble? Yes, Jumble. Why didn’t GZ tell the police about how he got dragged south? Because he misunderstood Osterman to tell him not to admit he ever went south. But in this scenario, it was Trayvon who dragged GZ south.
Yep, this drag and these injuries at the hands or legs of Trayvon may explain why the torture and gunshot followed.
Why was there no blood on the sidewalk? Because they were moving. And remember GZ’s remark about shimmying or rotating to keep his head off the concrete? Yeah, it was while he was being dragged. That was his head banging for the night. At the end his head was in the grass. So, look for the blood there.
I believe what some of you point out about GZ making small changes or reversals to what happened. One here is that instead of Trayvon coming at GZ from the south with a punch, it was the other way around. George came at Trayvon from the south with a flying grip.
Any more questions?
How is GZ holding on to TM is such a way that GZ’s head get dragged???
What is TM doing that far north in the first place?
Why doesn’t the phone separate and fall to ground until the death site?
“How is GZ holding on to TM is such a way that GZ’s head get dragged???”
I could only see this occurring if they went to the ground with TM getting up and GZ grabbing his leg while TM tries to get away, but I find this highly implausible. TM (158lbs) dragging GZ (200+ at the time)…don’t think so!
Bizarre! Not related to TM case, but I wanted to share…
Checked twice, hands cuffed, back of police car, left handed person shot in right temple, but cops say it was suicide… It was just a weed bust.
What the fuck?
You think that’s amazing, check out the “suicides” of Terrance Yeakey or Ray Lemme.
UGHHH! Fucked up. Thank you for pointing me to those cases. I vaguely recall the mystery surrounding Terrance Yeakey’s death, but hadn’t heard of the other case.
I am proud to announce I seem to have been banned from ABC’s comment board!! I am sure it wasn’t the douche bag description of GZ since before every one of my comments were removed they edited it to say ###### bag. I do believe they did not like my joke about Mark O’Mara after the Hannity interview.I hope I am not alone in noticing O’Mara’s face seems to grow longer longer and longer like his chin stretched to below his shirt collar. I only said “Mark O’Mara walks into a bar. A gentlemen turns to him and asks “Why the long face”? That was the last straw, thank you ABC I was out of control, you have released me from your comment prison and I am free at last, free at last!!!! Goodnight you wonderful bccclist people Blowing kisses to you all from Hawaii!!!
“Mark O’Mara walks into a bar. A gentlemen turns to him and asks “Why the long face?”
Ok, that was pretty good.
Reenactment video: Concerning the dark blue car with the rotund woman chatting with a bicyclist.
That car is a Toyota Corolla.
Nobody has IDed the bicyclist (first seen around Taaffe’s bend) or woman, correct?
None of us have, and as far as we know, neither has anyone else.
Leelee I think believes it is Shellie, and from the circumstances and what you can tell of appearance at that distance, it IS. The bicyclist is most likely an innocent bystander.
thank you aussie I feel strongly it is her. As to the bicyclist is anyone’s guess. You mentioned previously that at the twin trees curve silver truck with Mark Osterman was Robert Z? Jr. or Sr. Just for my own fyi, thank you.
NMLE had to delete my long post about the anonalies in the various recordings of DeeDee’s first interview in order to fix the comments. Rather than repost it here, I just put it at the whoze blog: http://tinyurl.com/chbrvtz
Whonoze, your blog always insists on a password. Do you have a public link to it?
Try this: http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/deedee-angst-cont/
Do you have problems if you just go http://whonoze.wordpress.com
Since bcclist seems to be afflcited with ongoing confusions between 911-caller “John” W6 (recanted MMA beat down), and first guy on the scene with a flashlight Jon W13 (took cell phone pix of GZ),
I respectfully suggest we include their number whenever we refer to them from now on: ‘JohnW6’ and ‘JonW13.’
I am more comfortable not using their surnames, even though many people know them, because… I don’t know, it seems like the right thing to do…
Yeah, I feel icky using their last names (even if just using the last initial). The Tale of Two Jon/John’s is confusing. I think you have a good and valid suggestion.
Good suggestion Whonoze. I will use that format.
apparently it is not uncommon for a lefty to have his gun on his right side for cross draw or even because they may learn to shoot right handed. In the photo of GZ’s head the phone is on his right side. I kinda get this because when talking on the phone i too generally talk with the handset on my weaker side, leaving my stronger side available to write etc…but i always dial with my favoured side. I usually grab my phone and dial right handed before holding it with my left hand to talk. In the reenactment George says he went to reach for his phone, on the right side. Wouldn’t a lefty usually keep his phone in his left pocket? Im not a guy so don’t carry my phone in my pocket, but i would assume guys would have a favoured side/place for their phone and it would be the side you grab and dial from. Coincidence or not that he went to grab his phone on his right side, the side he carries his gun on, instead of his left.
And why bother to put the phone in your pocket when you know at any second the police are going to call you to find out your location,or that you may need to call in a hurry, unless he needed his hands for other reasons (he wouldn’t need to put the phone away to tap the torch).
He obviously didn’t drop the big flashlight when he was apparently king hit at the T because it ended up south, so he must have held onto it whilst he stumbled and flailed. Unless it got there some other way.
It makes me sick that he knows what happened and won’t talk….well he talks a lot, too much perhaps, but the evidence tells us he’s lying.
IF he gave up on getting the big one going, he’d have put it into yet another pocket, and taken out the small keychain one. Which would fit nicely with where that was eventually found. (The big one could fall out of the pocket in the fight).
BUT — BUT in this case why does he not say so? ever? to anyone? the ONE thing that might make his attack-at-T story a bit more credible, why doesn’t he ever say?
Because he was trying to give the impression he never ever looked for Trayvon and certainly never followed him. Perish the thought. He was just going the same way on the legit business of getting an address he didn’t need for a place he wasn’t going to be at.
Funny his phone didn’t fall out during the fight.
But maybe it did.
One witness in particular saw TWO lots of flashlights, long before the police got there. Was one of them GZ using the KEYCHAIN light to find his phone? and then got the idea to plant it up near the T? maybe he needed a light even to find the gun.
The only witness who claimed going out with a light was Jon (W13) who arrived when GZ was already at the little tree near the T and the keychain light was already on the ground. So if any witness saw a flashlight before that, it could have been GZ himself.
“… and certainly never followed him. Perish the thought. He was just going the same way on the legit business of getting an address he didn’t need for a place he wasn’t going to be at.”
So well and succinctly put!
According to whonoze’s timeline of the 911 calls, the first flashlight was mentioned at 7.18:03. Witness 13 Jon took the bloody-head photo at 7.19:07.
Zimmerman has some explaining to do if it was indeed a left handed holster on the right hip but he shot with his right hand.
Geeeooorgeee, you’ve got some splainin’ to do! (In my best Cubano/Ricky Ricardo voice.)
I don’t think this is the comment that will break the comments, but I will frown (A LOT) if I break the comments with a random comment. Shit, I should at least break it with legit evidence discussion, yeah?
Go look at the pictures of the holster.
It’s set up to worn inside the waistband on the right with the butt of the gun facing rear-ward.
And you can wear it inside left and get a right-hand cross-body draw.
Or change it to outside and have have left-handed draw. It’s not a very “handed” holster it’s just a cheap nylon pouch to stop the gun falling down your pants leg.
Anyway we long ago determined many lefties shoot with their right, for various reasons. And GZ consistently demonstrates using the right, even accidentally when he’s pretending he’s going for a phone.
Ditto about using phones. The non-dominant hand is not paralysed and useless, there are plenty of things everyone uses the non-dominant hand for. Dominant is relevant mostly to finer motor skills like writing or drawing.
And Smith describes removing the gun and holster from inside Zimmerman’s waistband (and by now, I’m sure, would have said something if it weren’t on the side Zimmerman claims), so that’s most likely where the holster was all along, which would mean either that it was on Zimmerman’s right with the butt facing backwards, or the much less likely on his left with the butt facing forwards which would have meant having to turn the left hand palm outward to draw it or having to reach the right hand across the body to draw it.
I don’t see what Zimmerman would have to gain by telling the truth about drawing a firing but concocting a false scenario about which hand he used and where the holster was.
I thought a commenter familiar with guns said Zimmerman was apprehended with a left handed holster. Something about a cut away for the area of a gun where the shell escapes after being fired by a left handed shooter. I’m not 100% sure this comment exists but I’ve committed a left handed holster to memory (and I admittedly know absolutely nothing about firearms/gun accessories).
The topic of from where the shell ejects and along what path it travels would come up in a discussion of why a leftie would shoot right handed.
Most guns are designed for righties, and throw the hot brass up and to the right. Imagine where it might go if it were in your left hand. Ouch.
As I’ve said before, the bullet casing was found under the body and was only discovered after the body was moved. Unsure what this means.
Unitron: ‘Smith describes removing the gun and holster from inside Zimmerman’s waistband (and by now, I’m sure, would have said something if it weren’t on the side Zimmerman claims)”
Not that I want to argue the holster thing, which I think you’ve explained pretty well just on the nature of the object itself and the general nature of dominant-handedness.
But the comment about Smith is the M/Z case laugh of the day. Smith being expert in NOT saying things a reasonable person might think he would. Like when he said driving GZ to SPD was the end of his involvement in the case, despite the fact he was present for Singleton’s entire interview, got water for GZ, and monitored his condition, etc.
And, Officer Smith said he removed Zimmerman’s gun from its holster at the police station before placing it in the gun box.
I’m a guy.
My piece of crap not very smart at all phone is the type you have to flip open (like my previous much missed Motorola).
I wear it on my belt on my left.
I pull it out with my left hand, hold it in my left hand, open it with my right and punch in numbers with my right, and then hold it to my left ear, leaving my dominant right hand free.
Perhaps you’re thinking of people who hold with one hand and use the thumb of that hand to dial a non-flip-type phone.
(I do the TiVo remote that way)
If I got one of those type phones in the future, I would probably continue to keep it on my left, hold it in my left, and dial with my right.
So it makes perfect sense to me that left-handed Zimmerman does it the same way, only mirror swapped left to right.
thanks for that, George certainly stuffed a lot of things down the right side of his pants, it’s a wonder he could walk straight.
But yep you are probably right, it’s not so unusual to have his phone on the opposite side. None of my A-HA moments ever amount to much so i’m not suprised haha
Many of my most brilliant insights fail to survive a quick view of the subject from someone else’s perspective.
: – )
LOL! That’s my take, too. What kind of pockets did his jeans have???
OTOH, I wonder how an ambidextrous person stores his gun/phone. What’s more disturbing is a person’s lack of regard for a gun owner to either not know he has a gun (Zimmerman claims he forgot he had one), not know where he’s stashed a gun (right or left pocket), and to confuse a phone FOR a gun. It’s the epitome of irresponsible gun ownership.
I recall a few cases of people being shot lying on the ground, by cops who afterwards say “ooops I thought it was my tazer”. So it can happen, apparently. 😦
I would not like the reaction I would get at our local Target if I attempted to enter their store and metal detectors wearing a kel-tec 9 in a holster inside of my pants.
Do they have metal detectors at stores?
What about the coins in your purse? your cellphone? car keys? all kinds of legit things would set it off.
I know many have tag detectors, that pick up anti-theft tags on your purchases, which are supposed to be removed or neutralised at the checkout if you’re paying for them. But that’s on the way out, and are some kind of radio frequency thing, not metal detectors.
It may have already been discussed, but I haven’t seen it here if so. The State’s motion against defense’s motion requesting recusal of Judge Lester is really a worthy read along with Judge Lester’s ruling.
Do you have the second tag number that was called in by the officer. I only have one, (816 QOLA) need the other one. If you have the info or anyone else please post.
from the tape
at 2.30 — “tag 816KLP tell me if it’s registered anywhere ‘tween the lakes”…. reply just one word “Zimmerman”.
and ATTS68, I think maybe with “honda” mentioned.
I think maybe I should get new headphones. Thanks for the information.
Sorry, I do not. Looks like Aussie already posted it though.
I got it, thanks anyway !
Food for thought: in Serino’s interrogation, I think GZ was responding to a question of why he as getting a criminal justice degree or what his aspirations were (sorry don’t remember exact question), GZ goes into his spiel about mentoring kids and realizing that he’d make more of a difference as a judge than as a police officer, blah blah blah. (This was like 2-3 days after the shooting). It sounded like a canned response.
Why was he mentoring those kids? I think it was primarily to pad his (and possibly Shellie’s) curriculum vitae to apply for school. It’s not a bad thing, or undermining the essence of that program or negates what they actually did for the kids. Virtually every kid applying to college or grad school is worried about having extracurricular activities/community service on their record. They might give themselves a warm fuzzy feeling by doing it, but many of them wouldn’t be doing it unless it was a requirement or to be competitive.
My theorizing about this also only came after reading GZ’s parents’ rather gag-me-with-a-spoon account of why he was doing it. A GZ supporter might say “Why are you asking? You’re finding every excuse to turn Saint George into the devil!” No, I’m just trying to put a reality check on it. Ya hear that defense? Now that we know your two interns are probably reading this blog, I’m telling ya, go back and put a serious reality check on everything your client has said.
There was a theory going around a few weeks ago that the mentoring was not entirely voluntary, ie may have been some community service order? nobody seems to know, he’s certainly not saying. The GZ team have not tried to find out or find the kids, either. I wonder if any neighbours ever saw the kids?
I couldn’t find any info about the mentored kids. I know GZ has made up a lot of stuff, but even he couldn’t fabricate two kids…..could he? Just a few comments on different (pro-GZ) blogs about how the mother of those kids defended GZ as a non-racist, but I couldn’t find a real news article to confirm who she is or who she told that to. His buddy Sean Hannity supposedly also confirmed that GZ mentored these kids but no details. I think it was only based on GZ and/or family’s account that it was some sort of big brother/big sister program (no THE official program, maybe a local version of it?), and that it ended.
On GZ’s parent’s website, RZ senior says that George is saddened that he’ll never see them again. I’m wondering what led him to say that. Was it to brush the issue aside so people won’t try to hard to look for them and possibly find out GZ only took them to the movies once or twice? Most likely the kids also said “Thanks for the mentoring, but we can’t be seen with you now….”
The reason why I don’t think it’s part of a court order is that his troubles happened before he married Shellie. If he had gotten into trouble since then and had to do community service as punishment, I think we’d have heard about it by now. Doing it to build a resume fits better in my mind. Wish he’d just say that instead of the Miss America response of “I just wanted to make a difference.”
In one of the jailhouse calls, Zimmerman claims he wants to become a chaplain.
I don’t believe he mentored kids. I believe his wife did. Shellie doesn’t want to have kids with Zimmerman for a reason.
I actually heard that jailhouse call (maybe #54?) when GZ mentioned wanting to be a chaplain now (and would have been a priest had it not been for meeting Shellie….another gag moment). In it, he mentioned the mentoring thing too as being part of his “calling” . I found it kinda weird he was talking about that at the beginning of the call and his voice was louder, and Shellie was trying extra hard to stroke his ego. Then after the talk about being a chaplain and all, his voice got quieter when they got to talking about other stuff. He fully anticipated these calls being released, and I’m cynical enough to think he planted talk about reading the bible, being a chaplain, asking that Reverend to come pray with him. And then there’s the “God’s plan” comment. That was a big fail, but seemingly part of an effort to get support from Hannity watching folks.
“Zimmerman’s mother, Gladys, said her son was “very protective” of vulnerable people such as the homeless and children. She described how he got involved in a mentoring program for children in Orlando, noting that both of the children he mentored were African-American like Martin. Gladys Zimmerman said she was concerned about her son’s safety in that program because he traveled twice a month to a dangerous neighborhood.”
“Sonner said Zimmerman and his wife served as mentors to two teenage children of an African-American woman. Though funding was cut for the program, the couple continued their efforts on their own, taking the 13-year-old girl and 14-year-old boy on outings to a mall, a science center and a basketball game.”
from : http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-23/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_deadly-force-law-fatal-shooting-president-barack-obama?_s=PM:JUSTICE
Zimmerman claimed in Hannity interview that he mentored the kids every Sunday, so who do we believe ?
What was the mentoring program he was involved in?
If the program was funded was Zimmerman being funded to mentor ?
Why was funding cut ?
Was Zimmerman mentoring the Sunday he murdered Trayvon ?
Who and where are the 2 kids he mentored ?
@ LeeLee, HOLY COW!!!!!!! I’m just floored! You’ve really hit on something. I’m so dense, for some reason I always thought mentoring was voluntary. I had heard about the funding being cut, but I just assumed it was funding for the administrators of the program, not for the mentors! This is just something I found talking about paid mentoring programs.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/for-children-at-risk-mentors-who-stay/ There are probably better articles to cite (that one is not located in florida). Still don’t know which program he was a part of.
Anyway, it makes SO MUCH SENSE now that Shellie and/or GZ would have signed up for such a program if they were getting paid. They were unemployed at some point and scraping by. I’m also glad I can shelf my “padding the resume” theory, but I made that one up BEFORE seeing GZ’s transcript. Goodness gracious, no amount of volunteering/community work was going to make that transcript look good….
Of course they would develop relationships with the kids and it’s not a stretch that they’d still do a few things with the kids after the program. Many people do. Also, the “funding running out” may just mean that this program only pays for each mentor for a certain period of time, like a contract, and not that the whole program was shut down.
OMG, I don’t know why this is just a big deal to me right now. I said above that it doesn’t negate what they actually did for the kids. I also don’t want to belittle other people engaged in such paid mentoring programs. They’re government funded programs that seem to do a lot of good.
But Holy Cow!
Alright, I know I’m replying to myself here (talk to myself all the time). Had time to sleep and want to clarify that whether GZ was paid or not to mentor these kids is not a big deal in and of itself. What is a big deal is the repeated mention of them as a defense/explanation that he didn’t look at TM and saw an “effing punk” because he was black. It’s just if we find out it was a paid program, it just makes their exploitation look worse.
GZ could be right about everything being part of God’s plan. For if God does exist he/she/it is surely a vindictive asshole. Me, I don’t think there is a God. It’s a good thing, too, since human vindictive assholes are trouble enough.
GZ almost got it right, though, the big assholes DO ‘always’ get away. Unfortunately for him, just killing one innocent kid, having long term anger management issues, being a pathological liar, and kind of a perv does not place him high enough on the asshole scale to insure that he will walk. I.e., he’s no Norm Wolfinger, Rick Scott, Wayne LaPierre, etc. etc. etc.
I highly agree with this entire comment.
While I don’t agree with either of your comments, I respect your opinions. As a Christian, I’ve been through far too much to not thank my God almighty for pulling me through all that chit that was way above my personal strengths and capabilities to pull through it alone.
Book” The Mask Of Sanity”
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Tests only identify Zimmerman’s DNA on handgun
Further information of blood and DNA are showing that Zimmerman and Martin may never had the fight Zimmerman claims