2,225 thoughts on “Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 2nd Evidence Dump Released”

1. Just noting some points that stuck out:

   Several summaries from people interviewed did not turn up any accusations of GZ being a racist. Even the ex fiance does not point to GZ as being a racist; actually, she brings up his mother as the one with some sort of bias. VZ told investigators that his family often talked about class, wealth, and material things. In addition, she states the mother spoke about marrying white and wealthy as a sign of status.

   I’m unsure who the interviewee is, but they go into a story that GZ’s mother used to hit him all the time growing up, and that the father did not do much to punish, and did not do much in terms of the abuse. It is also stated GZ was estranged from his family, and that he was closest with his half-sister who was also apparently ostracized for some reason.

   Serino himself did not believe GZ was a racist, but stereotyped Martin based on his apparel along with the circumstances of the evening. Serino in his interview states that GZ instigated the whole thing. Serino’s statement was cut off. I found that a bit odd.

   It was noted that the gangs in the area refer to themselves as “goons.” It is stated that many of the gangs are comprised of AA, and that the attire is dark hoodies. Maybe GZ did say goon, thinking TM was gang affiliated.

   Most accounts of GZ describe him in some form as weak or mild. Interesting. Serino describes him as “soft,” but with a bit of a “hero complex.”

   After the incident GZ purchased another gun, and it was referred to as a “cop killer.” The weapon is meant to fire high velocity rounds quickly. GZ went to the gun shop stating he needed more guns because he feared for his safety.

   The document dump also details the call GZ made to the SAO the day before the arrest. He referred to Sonner and Uhrig as “legal advisors,” but not his counsel. When prosecutors/investigators attempted to do a three-way call between with him and his advisors, GZ hung up.

   We finally know what Chad Green’s had to say! TM did indeed speak to him letting him know he was on his way home. Chad stayed up to tell TM and BG. CG did not hear anything because he was at the front of the house playing his games with a headset on. The family believed he was with his cousin until they contacted the cousin in the morning. The reports note that the night that they hung out that the cousin bought a Black & Mild. His cousin and CG both state they never saw TM smoke weed.

   Overall, the narratives seem to show a man obsessed with law. In addition, the narratives all mention that he told the people he fell back at the T. In some stories, he added that TM called him mother fucker rather than homie at the beginning. In addition, he adds that TM tells him he doesn’t know who he’s messing/fucking with.

   I’ve still got to review the maps and crime lab reports. Waiting til Axiom Amnesia has the audio up, and if anyone finds the M&I vid, please post!

   Now, I need to run an errand for Visine because my eyes are severely dry and glazed over. LOL. NOW…who wants to buy me a beer, lol? 🙂

   • Interesting that a Black & Mild came up seeing that Trayvon had apparently asked for a cigar at 7/11 and was denied. Any indication of where the cousin was while Trayvon was out getting some iced tea and Skittles?

     Chad Green playing video games with headphones on explains why he possibly couldn’t hear Trayvon knocking on a presumably locked back door. Was Chad supposed to let Trayvon in when he knocked/called? No key was found on Trayvon.

     • The B&M was purchased by TM’s cousin apparently on an earlier trip to 7/11, not sure if it was the same 7/11, but I just thought it was interesting to see that come up. I think it stated he had stayed the night with his cousin the night before. Maybe they just like to smoke B&M’s. *shrug* I really don’t care if he did attempt to purchase one, or if he got someone else to for him…hell, I don’t even are if he was smoking a blunt blowing weed smoke in GZ’s face, lol. I just thought it was interesting that it was mentioned in the cousin’s narrative.

       CG’s interview still does not answer if he was supposed to answer the door for TM. It just states that TM had either texted or called to let him know it was raining and he was making his way back home. No mention of whether CG was supposed to open the door for TM. He waited up for his mom and TM’s dad to tell them he hadn’t come back. They attempted to contact both TM and the cousin, but no answers. They went to bed, and BG woke up TM to tell him his son hadn’t come home. They made more calls, which finally reached the cousin, and that’s when they called in the missing person report.

       Oh, also, in one of GZ’s telling of the story, he states he was mugged. I believe this was a statement from a coworker.

       • “I really don’t care if he did attempt to purchase one, or if he got someone else to for him…hell, I don’t even are if he was smoking a blunt blowing weed smoke in GZ’s face, lol. I just thought it was interesting that it was mentioned in the cousin’s narrative.”

         I completely agree.

     • Also, there is a report with GZ being interviewed in the discovery dump, and he claims he saw each of the witnesses that were out of their house that night. I found that interesting because I would think one would not notice that if being beaten savagely… Curious and curiouser.

       • be specific, please. I think you are referring to a summary of an interview with Osterman the air marshall describing to investigators (which ones?) his recollection of GZ’s version of events as related to him, Osterman.

         In court, it’s called hearsay. Fascinating, but not an interview with GZ. More hyperbole told to a friend and then repeated at a later date with inconsistencies, either real or imagined on the part of Osterman.

         Interesting stuff for investigators, a lead, even perhaps. But in court it’s useless mostly.

         • You are correct. I apologize. I will rein in my comments in the future.

         • The story retold to Osterman? Or a story concocted with Osterman? He certainly knew it like the back of his hand. It was almost identical down to the incriminating detail that GZ had his elbow on the ground when he shot Trayvon.

           re: the B+M – my understanding is that it was purchased the morning of 2/26 after the cousin spent the night.

           Also, many had wonder who called Trayvon while he was on the phone with DeeDee. I now believe that was Chad calling to ask Trayvon where he was.

     • I am pretty sure that he would have had to let him in.Trayvon didn’t need a key to the home because he was not there that regular. I never gave my ex step son a key due to him living out of town and was never really out and about to where he needed a key, but had he, we would have let him use one of ours. They never found a key so I do believe he would have had to have Chad let him in. My son has those Beats by Dr. Dre and he can’t hear anything when he has them on due to them being noise cancellation headphones, plus he has the Ipod going, and the ps3, I can see Trayvon knocking and not being able to get him to the door, especially if he was upstairs.

     • “Was Chad supposed to let Trayvon in when he knocked/called? No key was found on Trayvon.”

       I read somewhere where someone said they checked up on The Retreat via some real estate site, and the houses have keypad locks, so, if true, he’d just have to have known the code.

       unitron

       P.S. I don’t suppose amongst that myriad of WordPress options they offer a comment preview view mode?

2. Thanks for the great post NLME.

   Here is photo analysis of the total crime scene map, which by the way vindicates my own estimates almost completely, IMO. (I missed the location of the first aid kit by less than ten feet)

   

   here is another, NOT mine but that confirms what we both independently arrived at

   

   If you are curious about all the measurements, go to google maps and use the ruler to to estimate distances.

   Here is the one that matter to me – how far GZ claims he “stumbled” the ONE time he seems to recall having done so. 45.5 feet from the cut thru sidewalk to the shell casing.

   Imagine a batter hit by an inside pitch stumbling from home plate to the front of the mound in major league baseball. That’s 45.5 feet.

   Remember, this is the aprox distance GZ claims he stumbled the ONE time he recalls this movement, IMO.

   Here are some of his other statements about how the altercation went from standing to prone.

   first interview 26 FEB part one with Singleton
   “I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
   “as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
   “and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”

   (more quotes from all the interviews on the flickr page)

   In the video walk thru “reenactment” GZ stops north of where the tan bag was found, for further comparison. That’s less than 60% of the way there, IMO.

   • Perhaps his girlie swatting acted somewhat like a propeller, pushing George further and further south kind of like a chicken trying to take flight…of course i joke….i just can’t work out how after being suprised by a punch in the face he stumbled forward and fought of his deadly attacker by smacking him with open hands…..i guess that’s why there is no defence wounds, he fights like a german slap dancer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bthPSFS13hY&feature=related

     • Thank you, willisnewton! Excellent comment.

       jo — Well, Zimmerman carried a concealed weapon. And, this is by far the easiest way to let somebody know that you’re weak.

     • LOL Jo don’t write jokes like that while I am drinking coffee!!! you owe me a keyboard.

       Actually we all know from the pro_Z sites that Trayvon was about 8 or 9 ft tall and 300 lbs (all muscle mind, not flab) with fists of steel. A kinda Superman. So one swipe from him could easily push Z that far and one leap from TM would have him right on top of him.

       • You forgot to mention Trayvon’s 8 arms and hands.

         unitron

         • “32” arms.

     • jo,

       No wonder his career as a bouncer didn’t last long but of course none of his jobs did.

3. p17: “She said he was a Hispanic man with a short sleeve shirt on”

   There’s that “white shirt” again, I still think it is a light pastel, that gets is recognized as a light color shirt, in the dark.

4. So, GZ was in the habit of stalking????

   Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

   page 111

   interview with unidentified female

   “…. would see Zimmerman drive around the neighbourhood with his car lights off. She would also see him check the walkways with flashlights late at night. “

   • Holy. Shit!

     Added here:

     Unidentified female witness: #Zimmerman used to creep neighborhood w/ headlights off & check sidewalks w/ flashlight late at night. Page 111

     — Crick (@bcclist) July 13, 2012

     Will add to this blog posting later tonight/tomorrow.

     • Another witness, this to the actual struggle. p31: “She saw the back side of a guy who had a white tee shirt on, that guy was on top of someone else.”

       • Dumb question (maybe) but what color was Trayvon’s undershirt(s)? Link as a source?

         • It appeared to be a light gray sweatshirt, long sleeves.

     • Oh, too fast, She says the subject that had the white t shirt on was laying on the ground, like he was sleeping, face down.

       So white t-shirt guy is Trayvon? How is that?

     • @NLME

       “Dumb question (maybe) but what color was Trayvon’s undershirt(s)? Link as a source?”

       Nah, not a dumb question. Can’t remember it all.

       TM’s undershirt was described as light grey, and I believe long sleeved, too. Zimmerman’s was also a light grey, but I think it was almost a pale blue-ish grey.

       I just don’t understand how the white shirt is TM since he had his dark grey hoodie on. I’d also like to hear an expert explain how GZ’s on his back and gets one small speck of lead on the back right arm of his jacket.

       • If the hoodie snugged Trayvon’s body loosely, the back side could have been lifted up during the scuffle thus exposing Trayvon’s undershirt. Again, if this possibility has been talked about on BccList.com in the past, I apologize.

         The following explanation is probably unnecessary but it’s a real life example for me…

         When I wear a hoodie without a tshirt underneath and bend over, 1/4 of my back is exposed and my wife hollers: “Plumber’s crack! Put on a tshirt!” So, when I wear a hoodie with a white tshirt underneath and bend over, my wife only sees a white tshirt and doesn’t get to criticize my ass crack. 🙂

         The undershirt of Trayvon Martin’s that I just saw on Out Front with Erin Burnett (I’ve never seen her new show since leaving MSNBC and it’s definitely only decent at best) is 3/4 sleeve and light colored. It’s much lighter than Zimmerman’s shirt in my opinion. I assume if Out Front showed Trayvon’s undershirt, it must have been in this newest evidence dump. (Yes, I saw the picture released today of Trayvon’s hoodie on twitter but hadn’t seen the undershirt yet)

     • There’s a pic of his light grey undershirt in the document dump along with a pic of the hoodie, too. I can’t recall the page, but it’s toward the end documents.

       • Well, that describes the white shirt witnesses seemed to see — right?

         • I think we need more information from the witnesses. Did they see, front or back? Why called a t-shirt? short-sleeves? or as you described, could see it was under the dark hoodie? under a jacket? If there had been a proper investigation we might have those answers. Right now, I think both could be believed to have a white t-shirt but I think the confessed murder moreso than Trayvon.

           • I had a realization that when the witnesses say T-shirt, maybe they don’t necessarily mean short sleeve shirt, just crew neck shirt, rather than collared.

           • @princss6 –

             “Why called a t-shirt? short-sleeves? ”

             I think what they were seeing was only one color of zimmerman’s patterned jacket sleeves.

             http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb57ef3/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-020/600

             and

             http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb63fc1/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-047/600

     • Yup. I think we’ve tossed around the idea that it could have been TM’s undershirt exposed. I suppose it’d depend on how long his hoodie was, how long his undershirt was, and/or the angle of his body. GZ’s undershirt was indeed significantly darker, though, could still be mistaken as white in the dark. The witness statements get very confusing because some seem to mesh the two’s clothing together when attempting to describe one person. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t think TM being on top matters. It would only make sense for someone being chased down to attempt to hold the other down til help arrived. I think at some point GZ lifts off his back and fires while both are on their sides or with GZ on top.

       “The following explanation is probably unnecessary but it’s a real life example for me…”

       But much appreciated! 🙂

       • Speaking of my wife…this is from the original blog posting when we were trying to figure out the white tshirt comments from witnesses.

         “A few weeks back, I ran a test on my wife. If she didn’t think I was crazy before, she did afterwards…for a few seconds at least. I put on a t-shirt that sort of matched what Zimmerman was wearing in the surveillance video from the police department station.

         It was after the sun was down, pretty dark, and there was a drizzle. She doesn’t follow my blog posting or the case. Before going 20 feet out in the lawn, I asked her to give me an instant response to a question I was about to ask. When I counted off 20 feet, I asked: “Is this a dark, grey, or white shirt?” She responded without hesitation: “Dark — but not really.” I asked her what her second choice was: “Grey — I guess.” Regardless, the t-shirt definitely wasn’t white in her opinion.”

         Below is a picture of the shirt mentioned above. It actually looks MUCH darker (blue) in this picture than it does in real life…
         
         https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/zimmerman-trayvon-martin-tshirt.jpg

       • I’m not sure we can characterize that shirt as an undershirt as of yet. It looked like a sweatshirt to me. But I could be wrong, of course. It would also explain the bulk in the photos.

         • @princss6

           When I refer to it as an “undershirt,” I only mean that it was the garment under his hoodie. 🙂 I believe it was a sweatshirt, as well. IIRC, in the first document dump with the ME report, it was described as a sweatshirt by the ME.

     • Does this mean we are conceding that it was most likely TM on top?

       I always believed he was on top, at least at some point, if not for the majority of the altercation. It’s the whole TM sought out GZ to viciously attack thing I don’t buy at all. I kind of wish TM had busted him up a little more, LOL.

       Hey, do we know if the Walmart bag at the scene was just random trash or was it attributed to GZ?

       • I’m not conceding it TM was on top but it is possible. But I know one thing, the confessed murderer DID NOT fire his gun while on his back and TM on top. So if TM was on top, he apparently got up at some point. Based on the witness statements, I need some trace evidence to confirm the actual parameters of their wrestling. Also, two people seeing white t-shirt? I don’t recall as that detail didn’t stick…but will review unless you want to point me to where it is mentioned by two different witnesses. 🙂

         • The woman living next to John mentions the white shirt in her 911 call that night. John, after talking to his neighbors, in his statement with BDLR seems a bit unsure, and he starts describing it as red or light (he’s very confusing, lol), and I even believe W2 describes the body on the ground after the shot as wearing a light colored top in her audio with state investigators. Now, I can’t remember where, I think it is somewhere in this document dump that someone describes someone in a tan shirt in the back of a cop car.

           I’m wondering if they were on their sides when the shot was fired.

     • The Walmart bag seems to be the one supplied “by an Asian man” (Jonathan) for the ambulance request for plastic to seal the chest wound.

       The first aid kit would also be his; ambulances don’t use that kind of home-use kit, nor leave their equipment behind (apart from used bandages and wrappings etc).

     • @question everything trust no one Says:

       “Does this mean we are conceding that it was most likely TM on top?”

       I am not conceding yet. LOL

       I think the question of who was wearing a white tee-shirt and who was on top at different times will end up being important. Not so much because it proves anything about Trayvon Martin or about George Zimmerman, but because it will go to the credibility of the witnesses accounts of what they say when they saw it.

       **** warning! very long message to follow *****

       There are 3 Witnesses O’Mara wants to rely on — W11/W20 (HOA and Jeremy) and W6 (John):

       W11’s and W20’s recorded call is solid for the prosecution because their call was captured via 9-1-1 with Trayvon Martin’s cries for help in the background. They didn’t *see anything due to dark blinds on their enclosed patio. Their later stories are like Zimmerman’s in that it only breaks down once they start talking/fantasizing. Their later stories are also tainted which was the point (imo) of their last interviews that focused on whether or not they went outside and talked to others at the crime scene. The defense believes because Witness 11 says nice things about George Zimmerman that this is good for them. Unfortunately, the things that were said were not really nice and also put the HOA in a position of liability for their ignorance on NW rules! Witness 11 said Zimmerman is confrontational.

       So now we’re left with Witness 6. O’Mara wants to rely on Witness 6’s recanted testimony which will never fly with a jury. Witness 6 said in his 3/20/12 interview that he chatted with his neighbor next door (HOA lady)! Only then does Witness 6 said he knew zimmerman was in red and Trayvon Martin was in black. By then Witness 6 said he didn’t know who was yelling help and didn’t see blows thrown. He said he didn’t know whether the loudness of the noise was coming from the left or from the right — he only knew it had gotten louder as the altercation moved closer. Listen to 11:34 in the 3/20/12 interview:

       http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/)

       Witness 6 said the person on the bottom had on red or *white*. He couldn’t see a hood on the guy on top. He couldn’t see their faces. So by now, a month later, Witness 6 says he sees a white shirt/red shirt/patterned outfit on the bottom. Somebody told him that! Was it ex-deputy Osterman? Was it chatter among the neighbors?

       FYI, the fired ex-deputy Osterman mentioned above is the friend Shelie Zimmerman called for help the night zimmerman shot unarmed Trayevon Martin. Osterman was at the crime scene before zimmerman was hauled off to the police station and claims only that he didn’t chat.up other officers in depth or Zimmerman. Did he help the witness statements along while on the scene? Somebody did!

       Osterman details here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html#storylink=cpy

       Imo, it doesn’t matter the position top or bottom John saw because we know other witnesses saw a different position afterwards. Witness 6 said he saw someone in *white* or red on the bottom, but that wasn’t the final position per other witnesses.

       The pro-zimmerman discredited witness 3 saw a “white” tee-shirt guy on top. She saw the altercation some time AFTER Witness 6 and captured the gunshot on her 9-1-1 call.

       The media trashed Witness 3 as badly as they first attempted to bash Mary, Selma and the teacher. The problem for the defense is that Witness 3 says she *saw* (not just heard) the guy on *top in the *white tee-shirt while she was reporting the event on the undisputed/untainted 9-1-1 call. Like Witness 11’s 9-1-1 and Zimmerman’s recorded police call, Witness 3’s 9-1-1 call is not open for interpretation. It is what it is.

       To me, the question is which clothing ‘looked’ more like a white tee-shirt since nobody was there wearing anything white. John (Witness 6) said he saw either red or white. Witness 3 says it was definitely white because it popped. Witness 3 didn’t say it was eggshell white, antique white, bright white. She described what she saw and said it was white because it was the color that popped.

       Witness 6 recanted because his details were sketchy and reported after the fact — even on his 9-1-1 call. Witness 11 didn’t *see anything. Witness 3 saw the guy in white on top seconds before the shot -and- caught the shot on her 9-1-1 call.

       Which of these colors is most likely to be mistaken for white or appeared to be a tee-shirt?

       Zimmerman in light gray shirt: http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb57ef3/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-020/600

       Zimmerman with reg/gray patterned “free country” jacket zipped: http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fb63fc1/turbine/os-pictures-evidence-photos-released-in-the-sh-047/600

       Martin dark gray hoodie (pullover): http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/263512/evidence04.jpg

   • wow, too bad no one called the cops on him for his suspicious behaviour

     • Touché!

5. question everything trust no one said “co-worker said Zimmerman had been mugged.” I read that in one of the very first articles when this story came out and it has *never* been mentioned again. I guess I need to go dig – it was reported that Zimmerman had been mugged at age 19 by….yes, an African American. That would certainly account for his profiling of Trayvon. If I find anything more, I’ll post. I just find it intriguing that, finally, someone else has brought it up.

6. The long-awaited M&I bank videos are up on Axion Amnesia. They require downloading a video player which, for some reason, downloaded for me in Spanish (not a big issue but…).
   The first one is strange…it shows a lot of people using the ATM, which I rather thought should have been edited out. After all, they have nothing to do with the case.
   The others cover a time from about 12.30 to 6.40 which is a LOT of nothingness to watch through. So far at guessed intervals I’ve not found any action at all on them. There’s nothing to indicate true time of day on any of them, either.
   Disappointing. Will continue to keep watching.

   • IF we can establish real times for these, the one thing they’d be good for is to know precisely when the rain was off, light or heavy.

     • I believe the real time is indicated on the botton right of the videos.

   • Two different reporters from the Orlando Sentential and Miami Herald didn’t seem to think much of the M&I bank videos. This doesn’t mean ANYTHING though since the clubhouse videos were reported as insignificant at first.

   • Indeed, there not much to see on the bank’s vids.
     It might be Shellie though. At 13:08, the first person, looks like Shellie with similar sunglasses & outfit than in published pictures.

     [video src="http://www.axiomamnesia.com/Videos/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-Videos/trayvon_martin_george_zimmerman_m_i_bank_surveillance_02262012_sanford_florida.mp4" /]

     • Is the first person driving a Honda Ridgeline too?

       I hate choppy time lapsed videos. Why is this done? Does it keep the files smaller? Frustrating!

     • That’s some funny vid there! LOL

       Seriously, though, I thought it was supposed to be something like 3 or 6 hours of video. Maybe we haven’t seen the full release yet.

     • I wondered if the vids were just another way to show the weather before seeing LeeLee’s speculation below that maybe it’s Osterman on the mp4.

       Networking and making “connections” makes for a really crooked world. Here’s a run-down on the “connection” Zimmerman made.

       http://globalgrind.com/news/us-air-marshal-mark-osterman-took-george-zimmerman-in-trayvon-martin-details

7. on the last page is a diagram of the crime scene. The location of Trayvons body doesn’t seem to be as far south as i thought it was, it looks like he is just past that first enclosed patio.

   • Haven’t reviewed the newest dump quite yet. Do you have a page number? Is it an investigator or witness map?

     • its page 284, part of the death investigation drawn by Orta. Having another look at it it could just be that the scale makes it look like he is not far down the path but it could still be some distance.

   • @jo

     Have you seen the newest lot of crime scene photos?

     http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/trayvon-martingeorge-zimmerman-crime-scene-photos/

     The maps are great, but it’s been easier for me to grasp just how far down he was by looking at the actual scene.

   • It is where expected Jo… Right behind 1221 TTL, ~50ft south from the T.

     • thanks guys

     • Tchoupi – you and I are in agreement on many things. I wish you would take some time to consider the “middle parking spot” that deductive reasoning tells me GZ used AND marked on a map with investigator Singleton and reconsider what you think the pool camera shows.

       We’ve not really talked much but our works seems to overlap a lot. I’m impressed with your care and consideration of all the factors involved in deducing things from what’s in the public domain. I’d like your opinion on some things if you can find the time to join flickr, or just comment here.

       http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630287389764/with/7568665726/

       Anyone else, please look at the last pic in the set and help me decipher the marks GZ made on this map. I think they are important but the copy is poor.

8. You guys are doing an excellent job keeping track of all the info in this case. Still trying to get through the document dump myself but thank you to all for sharing your insights!!

9. on his myspace entry he says he calls his friends to help out with his sister and they are all there on their bikes before he even hangs up the phone, then how they do a year and never open their mouths. Sounds like he set something up and they got busted but didn’t rat on him. pg 224. Says he opened his own insurance company.

   • I read somewhere that he worked for his uncle’s insurance company. Liars doing what they do, lie and apparently this family has a history of lying about their status.

10. oops George might be in trouble when Shellie finds out he was meeting up with the ex. The ex also mentions that george wouldn’t put himself in harms way, he had other people that would “handle things” for him (like he says in myspace). I guess that was before he had a gun to handle things for him. She also says he had a temper towards her but never saw it with others.

    • lol, I thought about that too, I said uh oh somebody was creeping. Could still be creeping seeing how I could have sworn she was the one who called him racist. If she was not the one then where did that young lady go to?

      • Witness #9. Statement to be released Monday per the blogosphere.

    • I made a note of that, too. 🙂

      ———

      page 143 – zimmerman’s ex-fiance got married to someone else and zimmerman married shel-lie. zimmerman started contacting his ex-fiance again in 2010 and they saw each other a few times from 2010-2011. zimmerman told his ex-fiance that he wanted children, but his current wife did not.

      ———

      What do you think about this part?

      page 141 – zimmerman was caught by his ex-fiance lying on the bed with his teenage neighbor playing with her baby.

      • “What do you think about this part?

        page 141 – zimmerman was caught by his ex-fiance lying on the bed with his teenage neighbor playing with her baby.”

        Gives me the creeps.

      • @CSFC

        That part jumped out at me, too. While lying on a bed with someone doesn’t automatically equate to something sexual, I would the situation described does not exactly seem appropriate. It makes me wonder how they end up in a bedroom lying down on a bed in the first place.

        • If the ex-fiancée recalled the event, there was probably something weird/noteworthy about it. Otherwise, it would have just been George lying on the bed with another person and a baby.

          • Good point. I need to go back and look at her statement again. It makes me wonder if they were inappropriately close, if he was looking at her a certain way, etc. to make the ex remember such an event. I suppose I remember all my experiences with older guys when I was underage, and I remember most of the older guys did not have completely innocent intentions.

            Interested to know if W9 and the ex are indeed the same people, and if it is, why she said he did not like black people then changed her statement.

            • Same experience here. I don’t think W9 is the ex any longer. W9 is damaging on the racial aspect. It is apparently so damaging to Zimmerman that O’mara is willing to risk asking for a recusal of Judge Lester for no legally-based reason.

            • “It is apparently so damaging to Zimmerman that O’mara is willing to risk asking for a recusal of Judge Lester for no legally-based reason.”

              O’Mara would never admit it but he must love the MSMs coverage of this case so far. For example, my mom is a casual news follower and thinks Trayvon beat Zimmerman up pretty bad (bloodied head pic courtesy of ABC) and that he had the right to fire a warning shot (because a chest shot would be excessive).

              Something in this witness statement may change the MSMs coverage. Meaning, my mom would be more critical of Zimmerman’s story/character.

          • @nlme –

            That’s my take, too. I first though she may have been jealous, but she later clarified that she didn’t think they were doing anything. Instead, she felt what he was doing was inappropriate. That spells weird and creepy to me, too!

            I’m also not suggesting he’s a pedo. I think he’s a cowardly abuser seeking out what he perceives as weaker victims.

        • I can’t get out of my mind that Zimmerman’s first brush with the law was defending a _teenage_ friend and assaulting an ATF officer busting up a place serving alcohol to teens. Does he hate teens or does he want everybody else to hate teens so he can use them as an object of his abuse?

          • woops! that was @qetno…

          • I hate judging people I don’t know, especially with such little history about one’s past, but it just seems he is socially stunted or something. I don’t know if he hung out with teens to use/abuse, but I think it’s more likely he thought he could impress them by buying them alcohol and getting them in places. I am curious to know how old the teens were, especially the teen he was lying in bed with that day. 13-19, so they could be quite young or almost legal.

          • Deep

      • Nothing there except from this old social worker’s point of view,makes her look creepy for remembering this nonevent and mentioning it to back up her GZ is creepy. And, frankly, him slapping her back is under tit for tat young n’ foolish folder. I think Lester was correct in pooh pooing that. However, under the “is he a BTK in training”,which I am mulling, GZ kicking her dog in stomach is important.

        Google” Dr.Hare and BTK”. Dr. Hare is foremost expert on serial killers. Everyone is familiar with childhood triad markers, animal abuse, prolonged bed-wetting,& setting fires. Hare points out need for control and power to the extreme, as is often found in pseudo cop positions ,is an important marker in adulthood. And begins manifesting itself in middle 20’s males.

        Btw, thanks for everyone’s hard work so computer/lazy folks like myself can learn about this fascinating case-in depth.

        • Oppos, should be under @CSFC

11. Pg. 204: Results of analysis of Trayvon’s shirt and hoodie: Consistent with a contact shot.

12. p 142: Interesting that the ex’s dog bit GZ’s face during their fight that led to the restraining order… and later GZ needed to get a gun to defend himself against dogs.

    • … and of course on the same page (142), the ex says that GZ filed a restraining order with the reverse of what hers said.

    • Caught that too. I wonder if the dog bite left a permanent scar.

      ——-

      page 142 – zimmerman refused to leave his ex-fiance’s new place of residence and asked if he could sleep on the couch. zimmerman snatched her cell phone and put it in his pocket. ex-fiance’s dog bit zimmerman on the face near the jaw and she was able to retrieve her phone and call the police. zimmerman ran before the police arrived.

      • This matches her statement I read online a few months ago about why she filed the complaint. I read it on a page on facebook called ” the real reason zimmerman attorneys quit” or something like that. I have tried to find it but it was taken down. It had all of his run ins with the law, crumps letters to the first lawyers, etc. It was very interesting.

13. pg 87 the video recording system of the club house was 18 minutes slow… how does this affect the analysis done here of those videos?

    • It doesn’t. We were never given the times from the recordings.

      The time-line we have is mostly from the tremendous work put into it by Tchoupi, who found the images of red&blue lights coming in (T smith and the emergency vehicle) and worked out real-life times from that, as the arrival times of these vehicles is known from police logs.

      • excellent…someone took plate numbers of 2 vehicles and they were registered to residents….either George was one of those residents or Shellie had already moved the vehicle. No police reports mention Shellie being there, but that ex deputy said he met her there.

        • STILL haven’t read the newest dump but how did Shellie and the bald guy know where to meet Zimmerman after he shot Trayvon? Jon?

          If so, it’s interesting Jon could give directions but Zimmerman couldn’t minutes before when talking to police.

          Also, it’s a CRIME SCENE — were they supposed to flock to it? And, an officer didn’t suggest Jon (or whoever gave Shellie and the bald guy directions) not invite people over to a CRIME SCENE? Again, a crime scene and not a parade.

        • And, how about video from inside the responding vehicles?!?

          • To summarize my read of this dump; witnesses are confused. There were at least 4 mentions of a T shirt, which was not visible on either TM or GZ at any time. One even says GZ was put in the police car in a tan tshirt. So lesson is, witnesses mix up details, times etc.

            I get the feeling that the argument is missing from GZs story, all together. That is critical. Numerous witnesses hear an argument in association with these voices changing location. GZ mentions nothing about any argument. SO lets deduce what the argument likely is. We know GZ is wanting to somehow deliver TM to the police. Did he use his bouncer moves to somehow try to detain TM? Did he grab his wrist and twist it back? Twist TM’s arm behind his back? What if he grabs TM, puts him in some kind of detainment position, and starts trying to walk him back toward his car, where there are lights, and the police are expected to be. Maybe at the top of the T, Trayvon breaks free, and Trayvon has reason for really fight this attacker who is attempting to kidnap him.

            The Asian man witness is an interesting one. Came running around the corner with a flash light and his iphone and took three pictures. Would be interesting to see the position of Trayvon’s body in the picture he took.

            The details of GZ from friends and witnesses paint a picture of an paranoid, overzealous, delusional stalker obsessed with making himself a hero. The physical abuse from his domineering mother must be where he got his tendency for explosive violence.

            Also missing is a huge gap of how TMs body gets from the standard crime scene “running man” pose to off the sidewalk into the grass with his arms beneath him. That body moves around too much!

      • We know Jon (W13) called Shellie. My guesses are that 1) Jon simply used GZ’s phone and 2) GZ was trying to reach her on his cellphone when Jon took the picture of his head.

        Finally, it is also documented that neighbors started to crowed the area. Actually, Cheryl Brown, Austin’s mother, could not come back in the complex from Walmart, because the gates were blocked by police aqnd traffic was probably controlled within the complex. All that to say that Shellie could have easily walked from her home to the crime scene. There is no way to know who was there. So, I won’t bother much about that.

        Jo, could you put e reference to your comment concerning the 2 vehicles?

        • Which makes me wonder how Zimmerman’s good ole buddy the ex-deputy Mark Osterman got into the complex. Was he already there? Didn’t somebody here ask a while back about why Zimmerman would leave his friend at his house with Shellie as he headed out to buy groceries?

          • “Didn’t somebody here ask a while back about why Zimmerman would leave his friend at his house with Shellie as he headed out to buy groceries?”

            Yes. Comment wasn’t mine but…

            I grocery shop by myself…a lot. Actually, I do all the grocery shopping. But, I’d obviously never go to the store if I had a bro over. He’d want to come with me or I’d just shop later.

            • The question was mine, and what you said last has exactly been my point/thoughts.

              It’s not strange to me that a guy would do the shopping. I know lots of guys (not just the single ones) who do the shopping…they do it because they are quicker at it and/or spend less money. It seemed weird to me none of the officers note this person being around the scene in their reports. It made me think his buddy was over that night, and I can’t see someone running to the store for grocery shopping in the rain with a buddy visiting. I would think it would be put off or the person would go with.

        • The bloody head photo shows GZ holding what appears to be a cell phone to his ear. He could have called Osterman first, and directed w13 to call SZ, we really don’t know. But I agree that he may have simply handed the phone to W13 or directed him to use it.

          I’ve always questioned the idea that ofc. Smith handcuffed him right away. I’d love to interview w13 in depth…

          Osterman admits speaking to officers, and most importantly to GZ when he says he didn’t speak “in depth” to cops or GZ that we see in the summary of the FDLE interview with Osterman. This aspect deserves vigorous investigation, and I hope that occurred, but don’t know yet.

          I’ve always felt GZ’s statements were scripted, but here we finally have evidence of an opportunity for incident-specific coaching to have taken place. This is the “good old boy” network factor that I think has been swept under the rug somewhat.

          GZ could have spoken w Osterman on the phone and on the scene, or both times, and the SPD investigation did not “uncover” or report it happening. Serino seems to leave Osterman out of what we’ve heard him say or write, and that’s frustrating to me, since his investigation was the primary one and anything in its wake is compromised by the passage of time and the questions unasked, etc. Was there a poor investigation or a cover-up of an accomplice’s involvement? We can’t really know yet. There may be an innocent (somewhat) explanation for all this but at the root of it I feel Osterman aided in tampering with an investigation if he had a part in the moving of GZ’s vehicle. And he had the potential, and means, motive and opportunity to do a lot more tampering, it seems as well as coaching of the murder suspect prior to questioning by investigators.

          • “I’ve always questioned the idea that ofc. Smith handcuffed him right away. ”

            You know what they call cops who do it any other way?

            Let’s just say it involves the phrase “fallen in the line of duty” in public and “what in the hell was that idiot thinking” in private.

            unitron

        • @willisnewton –

          I think Serino came oame on the crime scene after Zimmerman had already left. Presumably, so had Shellie Zimmerman and Mark Osterman if they followed behind the officers transporting Zimmerman. Would be nice if there was some confirmation of that, though.

      • Actually that abusive mother bit fits also nicely with his father saying at the 2nd bond hearing that he’d heard George scream like that… back in Virginia.

        That of course is not proof it was him this time. To call for help, perhaps. To scream like that? in terror? he had no reason. Trayvon did.

      • Tchoupi – it is on page 3. I need to get some sort of system so i can keep track of all this evidence haha. I read about something and react emotionally instead of cognitively. I don’t know how you guys do it and remember all the facts and witnesses and times and interviews but it’s very impressive…yeah i really need a system, lol.

14. pg 78 Shellie Zimmerman went to the scene???? This civilian got a call from shellie on the 26th Feb (a guy george would go shooting with) and met her at the scene but did not talk to George or the officers in depth (doesnt say he didn’t talk to them, just not in depth).

    • VERY interesting witness. GZ and Shellie went to stay with him for a month before leaving the state. He was PRESENT AT THE RE-ENACTMENT, together with GZ’s father.

      However GZ told him a slight different version of what happened, which is worth picking to pieces. Especially his description of how the shooting happened (at end of page 2 of his statement). GZ had his (gun-arm) elbow on the ground????? what kind of angle is that possible from?

      • Impossible! Did you also catch that he flipped/rotated the gun? All the while using the same arm to pin Trayvon Martin’s arm down.

        • Which means…the confessed murder had the gun positioned for a left-handed draw….and he shows us how he drew when he was supposedly reaching for the phone. And we know when he supposedly reaches for the phone….way too much detail there and too cute by half.

    • Caught my attention like WHAT?!

      ——-

      page 77-78 – zimmerman tells his friend who he was staying with after the shooting that 3 neighbors came out during the altercation and he asked each for help and each of them went back inside their homes. zimmerman told him that he “slapped Martin’s hand away from the handgun, pulled the handgun, rotated his weapon and then fired one round”.

      this is the person that shellie called and he met shellie “at the scene” and accompanied her to the police station where they waited in the lobby until zimmerman was released the next morning. he said neither he nor shellie talked to george zimmerman or the officers at the scene “in depth”.

      shellie zimmerman applied the butterfly bandages once they got home (to the friend’s place?). zimmerman also told this friend that he got out of his car to go find Trayvon Martin.

      this friend of zimmerman’s is a former Seminole County Deputy and he taught zimmerman how to shoot and they frequented the shooting range together. he met george zimmerman after shellie and his wife became good friends. he presided over the zimmerman’s wedding and his wife got george zimmerman a job.

      • The story did get weird when he discusses where they went after leaving the police station. If they went straight to the friend’s house and never left, I believe that is consciousness of guilt. Even if they went home immediately after to get some things and went to the friend’s house, I would say it is the same. GZ fled the scene of the crime almost immediately by leaving his home before anyone even really knew about the case, certainly no one outside of Sanford.

      • Heh – and you needed confirmation that Shellie put those stupid behind jacked up bandages on him???? lol Plain as day, not licensed medical professional applied those shade-tree bandages.

15. whoa come on now. This guy was a Seminole County deputy. He housed the Zims for 4 to 6 weeks after the shooting. George goes into great detail telling everyone every little word uttered, every feeling, details details details. He has repeatedly stated he was hit, fell to the ground at the T except when he was standing in the exact spot, then apparantly a plague of flies swarmed and he went into a swatting frenzy before he hit the deck. But this unidentified guy that met Shellie at the scene and waited with her at the police station (guess shellie did move the car very quickly then) said that George claimed 3 witnesses came out of their houses, that george looked them in the eye and yelled HELP on 3 seperate occasions. It is very detailed, but i’m only aware of 1 person saying they went outside. He also says Zimmerman tried to locate Trayvon and couldn’t find him so was going back to his car. He also says when Trayvon reached for the gun he slapped his hand away, grabbed the gun, ROTATED IT, and shot. What does this mean, is it gun talk or did he physically have to turn the gun around before shooting?

    Apparently this guy was present for the reenactment…did they sell tickets or what? and the third interview but did not coach at all.

    Sorry for my many posts, i just keep finding things that seem odd.

    • The witness on pp 77-80 is indeed very interesting.

      What he says GZ told him about the events shows one more time that GZ can’t keep one story straight. I just completed a line-to-line comparison table of GZ’s accounts to police that I see another new. OK, my comparison table stops before the struggle.

      Here are a few points that caught my attention:
      1) During the interview with Serino on Feb 29th, GZ is asked repetitively what set TM up. GZ always answers that he doesn’t know because he did nothing. To his friend GZ says he made eye contact with TM while on the phone with dispatcher. I think this is a question Serino specifically asked. I’ll check again but I remember GZ said that it never happened.
      2) He also says that he fell on his butt and then on his back as a result of the 1st punch. With the officers he can’t remember details of how he ended up on the ground. However, that new account is more consistent with someone stumbling after a backward motion following a punch in the face.
      3) TM was sitting in GZ’s stomach with his knees on the ground. I have to check again with Serino’s interrogation but I remember he specifically asked and GZ answer was that TM had a lower position. In any case, it looks impossible to grab a gun in pant when lying on the ground with someone sitting on the stomach.
      4) The 3 witnesses is totally new. We know W6 (John) and his account is well documented and confirmed by other witnesses. We know W15 (Austin) but he couldn’t remember any interaction with him in other statements. Who could be the 3rd witness? Austin’s dog? My take is that GZ is just trying to make the point that nobody helped him and felt that John was not enough so he had to ad two more “cowardly” [in GZ’s story] acting neighbors.
      5) Rotating the gun is interesting too. I just add it to the breakdance move he made to explain how he grabbed his gun during reenactment.
      6) TM pivoted 90deg!!!! It would be interesting to check how it fits with the final position of TM and what W6 (John) explained to Police.

      • Maybe this guy is trying deliberately to look like he’s insane!

      • And to point four, also mitigating his culpability…he had to shoot Trayvon because of other people’s failings mainly not helping. He will not be held accountable for anything, point by point, he is always projecting blames on others which is probably something he learned as a survival mechanism from the abuse.

      • The three people that say they were outside would be John (to tell them to stop and he was calling 911) then Austin (walking dog) then the other woman (don’t know her witness # at the moment, I apologize) who says she went out to let her dog out, saw her neighbor talking to someone on the ground then heard him say 911, which freaked her out, so she pulled her dog in the house, locked doors, and set her alarm before going upstairs to look out her bathroom window.

        I find it incredibly odd he would notice the three people under the circumstances he claims.

    • Yep apparently tickets were sold for the re-enactment as well as for the original crime scene. And who knows how many interviews etc.

      Doesn’t matter if Jonathan didn’t give directions, Shellie knew he was in the estate, won’t take long to drive around and see where all the cops are with the lights flashing. Not long to move the car either, tho’ why she’d think it needs moving in a hurry is another story.

      Heck. ROTATED? to Serino he said grabbed the wrist (“wrist control”) and also that he had to go around his own other hand (that he was holding the wrist with). Not quite “rotated” but close enough to explain using that word if ever it comes up.

      If he really meant rotated, ie it really WAS holstered for left hand across-body draw…….. murder 2.

      And then it makes a lot of sense (and either quick thinking or rehearsal) to re-holster it before the police arrive – into an internal right-hand-usable position.

      Well except he had it out before, didn’t he? isn’t that why Trayvon was trying to pin him down?

      Re the 3 witnesses — Jo don’t forget the 2 women, who asked him a few times if he’s okay. On his version at this stage he was still restraining the dead boy thinking he’s alive. And still claiming he was still calling for help, unaware the screaming and shot and end-of-screaming had been taped.

      This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.

      • @Aussie –

        “This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.”

        That’s EXACTLY what I had been thinking all along. Staged, pre-planned exit strategy. Call wife, she’ll know who to call. Say certain buzz words (repeatedly) to ensure self-defense. Put hands on head. Say you left the body one way to cast doubt on what the police did.

        But I do believe he was hell-bent on killing somebody, maybe not today, but as soon as the opportunity presented itself. February 26, 2012 just happened to be the day. I also think he targeted a black teen since he thought killing a black teen would be easily dismissed. After all, he’d already called in numerous other black teens.

        If he’s not evil, he’s crazy, imo.

        • I think he’s a lot stupid and a little crazy. Who in their right mind runs after someone they think is a potentially armed criminal?! I had a situation once where I saw a person walking from the space between my neighbor’s house and mine between 1-3a; the person had on all black clothing, and positioned their body at an angle, so all I could see was their back as they walked away to the closest street. Their head was turned fully to the side with the hood pulled over their face and their hands in the pocket. My instinct was certainly not to go after them; in fact, I could not get my keys in the door fast enough!

          • Exactly! Serino said it real succinctly. “That’s not fear”.

            Glad you chose wisely and you’re here to post you excellent insight into life’s real experiences.

            Funny how real life experiences prepares us to handle real life situations and the fake scenarios get you caught.

            • And we know on two occasions at least his instinct was to fight, not flee, no matter how mild-mannered or meek his friends, family and coworkers claim he is. On another 911 call, I need to reboot as I’m not having much success with audio, ShelLIE is in the background and stops him from going out to pursue someone, with gun in tow no doubt.

            • @princss6

              I have heard about that call, but I, myself, have not heard it. If you could provide me with a link to the call, I’d be happy to take a listen.

              From what I’ve read, GZ says something along the lines of “I ought to just…” and SZ tells him no and not to go out there/go after, and he supposedly asks her “Why not?” That would be very interesting to hear, if it is indeed what was said!

        • Aussie, Csfc:

          “This more and more sounds like this particular killing was not premeditated. But some thought had gone into how to get out of trouble in the hypothetical event of a hypothetical shooting.”

          “That’s EXACTLY what I had been thinking all along. Staged, pre-planned exit strategy. Call wife, she’ll know who to call. Say certain buzz words (repeatedly) to ensure self-defense. Put hands on head. Say you left the body one way to cast doubt on what the police did.”

          OR, a man who benefitted from criminal justice classes!!! I am sure they lectured about cases, fingerprints, dna, crime scenes, etc. Take a look below at the curriculum that he studied. click on: introduction to murder course.
          http://www.seminolestate.edu/criminal-justice/college-credit/asdegree/crim-as.php

          • I would love to see his course completion schedule…wow!

    • I’ve come to the conclusion the ‘HELP’ GZ claims to have been calling out was for W6 John and the other Jon to help him restrain/detain Trayvon. Certainly not out of, or in fear of his life, as he would have us believe.

      That’s why during the playback of the 911 call with Serino and you hear the terrifying screams, Serino notices no sign of emotion that one would display after hearing themselves screaming in such a manner, reliving that horrifying event, he says to GZ, “that’s your voice”, He responds that it doesn’t even sound like him.

      • I agree with your post. They are two distinct yells for help. One in terror, and one just saying the word. I have always thought that when GZ saw people looking out, but knowing it was dark had to yell something to cover his ass.

        • I agree with you guys, I had my 15 year old to scream like that and he had this distinct crack in his voice, I am sure Trayvon was not done with puberty and my almost 16 year old is definitely not. It is more and more sounding like a very terrified teenage boy. It saddens me to even listen to that 911 call. I already knew he had to be scared beyond relief but to hear it is something completely different, especially if he saw more than one person after him. I really believe as I said before GZ and a few others had something very sinister planned in that neighborhood. I keep thinking about the NW director, she said Zimmerman never gave her a list of others who wanted to join the neighborhood watch but kept inquiring about the burglaries. Why would he want to be the only one patrolling? is it so he could have access to information or how much information the police have? A witness said he was very creepy, roaming around with a flashlight, around peoples homes! If they barely worked how did they afford to live there? I see he was also worried about background checks on renters, yet he was a renter with a criminal past, just because he doesn’t have theft on his record doesn’t mean someone would want him as a neighbor. If I were on the jury I would ask why didn’t he move if he was so disgusted.

        • In the walkthrough, GZ says he was asking for help to restrain TM (after the shooting, when he thought he was still alive). But that doesn’t fit with the timing of when the screams were heard.

          If he never called for help, he would still have to say so
          1) it makes his fear for his life sound more real
          2) there are people around so he knows they MUST have heard screams so he claims them as his own
          3) he does NOT KNOW the screaming and shot were caught on tape, so are known for precise timing (esp. that the last scream stopped at the shot)

          If Trayvon was trying to hold GZ down, to stop him using his gun arm, HE would have to call for help. He is in a situation he cannot safely end unless he gets help for disarming GZ. IF he lets up, the gun arm is free (which is how it eventually went down).

          If ONLY he’d said “he has a gun” when John looked outside. If only he’d said that.

          When the calls for help turn into terror, Trayvon’s already lost the fight and GZ is pointing the gun at him. That is when GZ was in control of the situation and had no more reason to fear for his life – and should NOT HAVE PULLED THE TRIGGER.

    • @Jo –

      “whoa come on now. This guy was a Seminole County deputy”

      Guess what he does for a living now? No seriously, guess. LOL

      Hint: Cash, passport and a bff that _____________.

      http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html

      C’mon!!!

      • Osterman is clearly on the payroll for GZ. He was fired from the Sheriff’s department regarding his employment and suspicious activity surrounding his side job as a private security detail for someone who turned out to be an imposter, posing as a sports figure locally. They talked their way into having a car dealer give them a new car of some sort, the story was reported in the Orlando Sentinel, google it for details.

        As an air marshall, he’s familiar with what I would assume to be mostly domestic flights, but should have a working knowledge about international travel and flights as well. Note well that the order for bond states specifically that GZ can’t go to the Orlando airport. This is likely a new condition and may link directly to Osterman, or just be a boilerplate clause to tell GZ to stay the heck out of the airport in case he as a fake ID of some sort handy.

        This is all more or less breaking news to me and I’m not the expert on it but wanted to add to the conventional wisdom for those who are just joining in. Sorry if i repeat things.

        • If that guy is an air marshall, he won’t be one for long. As Frances Robles found out when she contacted the federal agency to verify his employment, they will not confirm employment of any agents because they travel covertly. That would be like someone working for the CIA on covert missions, telling us that they…work for the CIA on covert missions. It would never happen. And do you actually believe that there would be an air marshall who can barely climb steps?

          You have a bunch of people in that crew that like to pump themselves up. Without independent verification, I do not believe he works as an Air Marshall. And how exactly would a fired and disgraced LEO come to work for Homeland Security in 2001? Were they even hiring Air Marshalls in 2001?

16. page 23. Zimmerman had a gun/holster in the right side of his pants. Officer Smith took posession of the gun…AT THE STATION and after Zimmerman had been uncuffed and gone to the loo etc. That doesn’t sound right to me, wouldn’t they take the gun from him at the scene, i mean he just shot someone.

    • According to the first statement, he took the gun at the scene; even GZ says so in the walk-through.
      That statement is a very quick and out-of-order thing, obviously answers to questions, not in the right time order.

      ONE interesting thing though, ” had a concealed weapons permit IN HIS WALLET”.

      So he did have a wallet on him. This was not taken into evidence custody (nor apparently was his underwear). Not that either would really have much evidentiary value, when they’re just looking for blood and gun spatter.

      Fair enough, too, if they let someone go, they have to leave him his driver’s licence and a couple of bucks.

      • aussie i remember another statement where someone on the scene, emt or police, noted that they saw george in the car sitting with his legs out and a gun on the front seat????? i should have taken down the page number but by that stage i was delerious and was just skimming information. But that sounds a bit odd too.

        • That caught my attention, too. I didn’t put it in my notes either, but I know I read that. The pdf I’m using isn’t searchable.

        • The gun is on the front seat, the windows are rolled up, the driver door and the front passenger door and the rear passenger door Zimmerman isn’t sticking out of are locked and there’s a divider between the front and back seats that keeps prisoners in the back seat unable to get to anyone or anything in the front seat.

          First thing Smith did was handcuff Zimmerman, second thing he did was remove gun and holster from Zimmerman’s waistband.

          Zimmerman’s legs are sticking out ’cause the paramedics have to be able to get to his head to clean it up and check it out.

          I’m sure Smith was standing right there ready to empty his clip into Zimmerman if Zimmerman did anything he wasn’t supposed to.

          Nothing in any of that to freak out about.

          unitron

      • yep THAT one I noticed. EMT I think. Didn’t say if it was bare or bagged though. Guess bagged it would have been safe enough. I imagine there was a cop there with him too.

        See? they get in the habit of pretending precision (” I exited my marked police vehicle”) but forget to notice or mention details when those are not routine things but maybe important EVIDENCE. Only one of the 3? 5? 15? police at the scene noticed the key-light was ON. They all saw a body, none saw which way his feet were. What was the accused wearing?

      • John saus he heard GZ say “The gun is on the ground”? Why would it go back into GZ’s holster?

        • Various versions of that. In one version GZ told someone he holstered the gun before jumping on to the dead Trayvon to restrain him. In the walkthrough he says he did it as he was standing up from the body when he saw the police arriving. (Definitely not so as he was up and away from the body when the police got there).

          At least one witness heard him say “the gun is on the ground” around the time the first person went outside to be be spoken to. So this is the more likely story. The gun they somehow ended up in the holster between this (Jonathan or John) witness appearing and the police arriving. Nobody has stated seeing him re-holster it.

          This is a period in which he was walking up and down, not really pacing but going a few steps and stopping to look at the body, then walking again, with his hands to head. The time slot when he had his only chance to mess up the evidence, if any was indeed messed up.

          My early theory was he put the key with flashlight near the T in this time. But now I think that really fell there during the fight. I think he had it out to use as a light (the big one having been dropped elsewhere) but also in preparation for opening his car to hold Trayvon in it until the cops arrived. Trayvon broke free near the T and started running south again; that’s where I think GZ went for the gun, to hold him at gunpoint seeing he wasn’t cooperating with an ordinary wrist-hold. No evidence for this though EXCEPT maybe the one 911 called who said “I don’t want to be a witness” which nobody says unless they ARE, ie unless they saw something of value.

      • @Aussie –

        So if a crime is committed by someone who carried a razor in their wallet (just in case it was needed to scratch himself up a bit in a concealed fashion) AND he gets away with that part of the “act”, you don’t think he could go the bathroom and flush that evidence right down the toilet? I’m talking about what he leaves the scene with. I’m trying to understand Zimmerman’s special treatment by the police. I think I’ve figured it out now with this new evidence dump, though.

        • The idea that GZ went to the station with possession of his firearm is speculative, based on a summary or a report done weeks after the event. I don’t say it isn’t a head scratcher worthy of investigation but to report it as fact is foolhardy.

          This is a summary of an interview we’ve not heard yet, and the person being interviewed has said in his own report that he disarmed GZ at the scene. I don’t know that I trust ofc Smith, or his report which has suspicious issues of its’ own, including issues regarding the timing of when it was actually written/ released to public, but I can’t say what this new summary really tells us.

          Please don’t report things as facts when they have not been established as such.

          Does John or Jon ever report seeing GZ disarmed at the scene?

          • @willisnewton

            “The idea that GZ went to the station with possession of his firearm is speculative, based on a summary or a report done weeks after the event.”

            Hmm.. Not sure your post was directed at me. I don’t put ftorth the notion that a gun was in Zimmerman’s possession any time after it was removed at the scene. My post is above yours, so maybe you replied to the wrong person accidentally.

            What I said is:

            So if a crime is committed by someone who carried a RAZOR in their wallet (just in case it was needed to scratch himself up a bit in a concealed fashion) AND he gets away with that part of the “act”, you don’t think HE COULD GO TO THE BATHROOM AND FLUSH THAT EVIDENCE right down the toilet? I’m talking about what he leaves the scene with. I’m trying to understand Zimmerman’s special treatment by the police. I think I’ve figured it out now with this new evidence dump, though.

            • not directed at you – but a rumor is about to start getting out of control regarding the idea that GZ had his gun up until after he was at the station, based only on the grammar of a summary of an interview we’ve not heard in full. Once these things get loose they are impossible to chase down and I hate misinformation. I was replying to something up thread. sorry.

            • “… a rumor is about to start getting out of control regarding the idea that GZ had his gun up until after he was at the station…”

              Think of it as a companion piece to the rumor that’s been floating around for several months that they gave the gun back to him that night when he left the station.

              It’s usually said by the people who are convinced that Zimmerman’s dad had the governor on speed dial and secretly controlled the Florida Supreme Court because he’d been a magistrate 5 states away for 6 years 6 years ago.

              unitron

17. So we now know, thanks to Frances Robles of Miami Herald, that GZ’s friend is Air Marshal, Mark Osterman

    He was present :
    1- the night of the shooting after being called by GZ’s wife

    2- at the re-enactment – can be seen at 1:05 near a parked truck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewd1l6YWnW4

    3- at SPD with GZ on February 29th in this video

    Open Thread: New Police Video of George Zimmerman

    Do you guys think this is also Mark Osterman at the end of the BANK video at 18:36 (first video on the page) ?
    http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/video/mi-banking-surveillance-video/

    Stuff on Mark Osterman
    Herald report : http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/13/2893981/air-marshal-took-zimmerman-in.html

    Fired from Police department : http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1998-08-18/news/9808170587_1_juan-diaz-osterman-diaz-romero

    Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/sondra.osterman#!/mark.osterman.1

    • leelee thanks for these links, very interesting indeed. They are supporting Bill Lee as well which adds to Natalie Jacksons thoughts that this guy might have close ties will Bill Lee, wonder if Osterman and Lee discussed it at all, might be why he was fired.

    • just reading Sondra’s page, blind faith in St George, no sympathy for the dead child in fact one good Christian writes “No one wants to talk about the 17 problem that the person was. You know why don’t they stock to the facts.” and when one person says she wishes George listened to police Sondra snaps back “he DID listen to the police and he got his ass kicked for it”. This is good reading.

      • please screen cap everything before it gets scrubbed

    • Thanks for the links, Leelee!

    • EXCELLENT info, Leelee…thank you!!! See Update section.

    • Here’s a screenshot of Sondra Osterman’s Facebook wall…

      https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/sondra-osterman-facebook.jpg

      Apparently Zimmerman was just doing what he was told by police when he got his “ass kicked”…I guess that evidence is still to come? Ha!

      I’ve added the above screenshot to the Update section.

      • I think when this is all over *she* is going to be the one looking like a fool.

        Also, I was scanning the article that was posted to the left, and saw the words “white guilt.” I hate that phrase, and if it were possible to punch a phrase, I would punch that one because it pisses me the fuck off. Such a stupid phrase!! If black people support TM’s side, they are reverse racists. If white people support TM’s side then they are experiencing “white guilt.” Everyone else who is not black nor white is just incapable of thinking for their self and is blinded by the corrupt left-wing media.

        I experience no such thing called “white guilt,” but what I do experience is a whole lot of contempt for a law man wannabe that sees a person then assumes he KNOWS who this person is (a criminal) and what they plan to do (commit a criminal act), and with his false notion proceeds to act like he has some authority to go after said person with a loaded weapon. In addition, I have contempt for people who assume this is not a reason for someone to fear for their safety. GZ could do whatever the fuck he wanted, but TM shouldn’t be out in the dark, shouldn’t be walking in this community, shouldn’t have looked in any direction or at anyone, should have worn something else, should have called 911, should have ran, should have answered GZ, and TM when felt threatened should have let GZ do whatever the fuck he wanted to him, but shouldn’t have fought back.

        Sorry, I don’t know these people’s “white guilt,” but I do know and experience contempt for really stupid people.

        I apologize for the rant. Feel free to delete.

        • HOLY CRAPTASTIC BATMAN!!! You just nailed it. I had to pick my laptop off the floor because i just high fived your ass so hard it flew accross the room…hahaha. Love your passion!!

        • Ditto! I see it as an attempt to divide hispanics, blacks and whites in a n election year. Oh, no, I’m not a wingnut and I don’t think it is Obama that was wrong to say Trayvon Martin looked like him (because he was tall and skinny) just as I don’t think Obama was wrong when he said the white woman (Sandra Fluke) that slammed Rush Limbaugh reminded him of his daughter’s future plights in the area of decision-making regarding important issues (http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/06/news/la-pn-obama-rush-limbaugh-sandra-fluke-20120306).

          I KNOW that any people — white, black, hispanic, asian — can be racists even against their own. But I also know for a fact that most of us are NOT racists. My own family is comprised of every race, sexual orientation and religion. My hispanic family thinks George is evil and ignorant. My catholic family thinks what Zimmerman did was wrong and showed no mercy. My gay family also thinks Zimmerman bullied the child and should be held accountable.

          Yeah, I agree. White guilt is a made up word to impose guilt-trips on people looking for easy answers.

          • Speaking of elections/election year… I would love a blind election! What I mean: No knowing the candidates’ political party, race, sex, religion, not getting to hear or see the person, but just getting to read each candidate’s campaign and base a decision on that. I think some people would absolutely melt if they actually had to think, LOL.

            • That *would be awesome. Maybe that will come 100 years or so beyond where we are. I would prefer a blind referendum on all policy. The politicians are supposed to work for us, not party leaders or lobbying groups or other monied weasles.

      • Unbelievable! I cannot believe the way the pro-zimmerman cult thinks.

    • Nice links, Lee Lee!

      It sure looks like him to me. He’s wearing glasses at the bank, but still seems like it might be the same guy that was perhaps “body guarding” Zimmerman at the police station.

18. O’Mara just filed a motioin to disqualify Judge Lester! Wow!

    • WTF! O’Mara reads the Conservative Nuthouse to much.

      • Reads it?? did you miss the bit about a week ago where someone from the nuthouse wrote to MOM and invited him to meeting to discuss strategy with them? and he supposedly replied? positively? (they published the reply).

        • Was the meeting in Colorado? I read something about it, but can’t remember. Perhaps it was online and digitally recorded.

    • wow i just read it, thanks for posting. O’Mara is rambling like he did at the second bond hearing. This is embarrassing for them i would say. Now it’s all Lesters fault. Just because George talked and talked without a lawyer and made himself available it doesn’t mean he is innocent, what about the quality of those interviews, the contradictions, the details he tells his work mate, his deputy buddy, his estranged family etc, but as soon as someone points out a contradiction he ‘can’t remember’ or just goes eerily silent. This whole thing looks like George wrote it, the only thing he didn’t put in there is “waaaaaaah, it’s not faaaaaiiirrrr”.

    • Thanks you for posting the motion!

19. What, if anything have we learned about witness 4, 7 and 10 now?
    Can someone here provide a partial key to what witness numbers go with what summaries?

    To me learning about 4, 7 and 10 was one of the highlights I was looking for, that and the interview with Serino and the total station evidence map.

    The rest, not so much.

    Also, which interview is Frank Taaffe and what did we learn about him? I saw it in passing but haven’t gone back to read it all more closely. I had to take time to overlay the evidence maps with my own…

    • I’m dissapointed with what Serino had to say. Can’t remember in detail at this mo but he really seemed to think George was full of it but then says he was pressured into pressing charges. I think he backed way off and wonder why.

      • When he wanted to charge him they refused to do the necessary extra investigation. He had to go public and back up Lee to say there wasn’t enough evidence. Then the others maybe wanted him charged anyway when he felt they’d lose.

        I think he was very much the meat in the sandwich. I well believe he chose the peaceful late night muggings-only street patrol as a good quiet life by comparison.

        • i can understand that he had to support lee publicly, but when the FBI came knocking i think he back tracked too much. He seemed convinced that zim wasn’t telling the truth, singleton called zimmerman out on his BS too, but when the FBI spoke to him he didn’t offer much except that he was pressured by 3 others including someone he said was “friendly” with tracy martin. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/12/bombshell-serinos-fbi-interview-shows-three-other-people-on-the-sfd-pressured-him-to-press-charges/#more-43905

      • Serino knew GZ was lying about the events before the physical altercation, and had serious doubts about the smothering and of course the actual self-defense claim. His investigation did great work in coaxing GZ to give so many statements and accounts of the night. GZ told a series of lies that can be proven as lies when compared to the recorded call’s timeline, including absolute proof that GZ parked in the middle position he marked on a map but quickly amended before inventing the “TM doubled back/circled/ hand in waistband” lie that he is caught red-handed in when finally played the recording. Parking in this position, on the first curve on TTL shows that GZ drove behind TM and this is why TM ran, and of course GZ can be heard exiting his car 3 seconds after saying “sh*t, he’s running” and admitting to dispatch he’s following the teen. That leads into GZ lying to investigators saying he was already at RVC when he said “he ran,” since GZ also claims he himself did not run or jog and the distance is too far for this to be true. In other words, the prosecution can use the work of Chris Serino, who will of course confirm in court the veracity of the statements, to impeach GZ’s credibility 100% up until the very brink of the physical altercation. The very next thing in GZ’s account after “he ran” is his inconsistent description of his conversation end with Sean the recorded dispatcher, and his missing minutes before allegedly walking back to the T, allegedly to(wards) his vehicle. Aside from leaving out the “missing minutes,” and putting together all the deductive reasoning himself, it seems Serino knew this story was a false narrative. But he never found a star witness – he did find W2 and her glance at a foot chase – and he got GZ on record hemming and hawing about the smothering, but he likely felt this was not strong enough to go to trial with.

        But he never knew about Dee Dee, and he didn’t seemingly tell the FBI about the car-to-pedestrian chase narrative that GZ’s lies strongly infer.

        I think he’s a normal good cop in a town with few murder cases and I wish him well. He’s off the case now except to come to trial and confirm what he found out. I doubt he leaked anything to anyone, pro or con to GZ’s public image. He publicly backed his boss Bill Lee in one joint interview and has kept his mouth shut to the press. He did his job and KEPT his job where others are gone. I think he handled himself intelligently and deserves to be left alone unless he feels like writing a book – which I would buy.

        • i really liked the way Serino handled Zimmerman. I still think he is a good guy who was doing the best he could. Maybe he didnt have the evidence he thought he needed, but i thought he would rip zim to shreds in the FBI interviews. It didnt happen. I am dissapointed but i still respect the guy. He tried to get to the truth and i respect him for that.

          • Some of this is inter-departmental rivalry. It’s hard to know how Serino may have felt having his investigation superseded by outside agencies. In one sense he seems to have said “here you go, it’s your mess now.” Keep in mind this is just a summary we are looking at about what he told the FBI, whose mandate was to find out if GZ had violated TM’s civil rights – not an internal investigation of SPD (that was done, and we have not seen those documents) nor was this an interview by the special prosecutors who have an interest in solving how the altercation went down. Id’ say Serino had motivation to keep his comments to a minimum and only answer what he is specifically asked with as few words as possible. He is no fool, and he knows what loose talk does – it’s get you in trouble.

        • I would buy his book, too, if he ever wrote one. I actually believe he moved to a different beat because he wanted to find out what the F is wrong with the rest of them and he hopes to dispell the sickness he’s now aware of. I don’t think he felt pressured to file charges unless he meant he was being pressured by both sides to either go with what he knows or succumb to pressures from the do NOT file charges side (his bosses and their “network” of “connected” friends).

          I am grateful that Serino got a lot of info for the prosecution to work with.

      • Yeah. I wonder if Serino was pressured into NOT filing charges, which is the more likely scenario, imo. TalkLeft (a site that posts the ConservativeTreeHouse crowd’s garbage) has changed what Serino said to leave a false impression. When called on it by at least one poster, a refusal to make the correction ensued.

        Apparently, page 2 of Serino’s interview was missing from the doc dump2 which makes it 285 pages released. There was supposed to be over 300 pages. Where are the rest of the pages?

        In any event, Serino talked out of both sides of his mouth to get to the bottom of witness statements. I noticed that early on. He got good info from many of the witnesses by doing so. Most importantly, he got the info needed from Zimmerman that will ultimately put Zimmerman away in jail on murder 2.

        Serino offended some early on with his style of questioning, but I’m not ready to hold that against him given the amount of info he uncovered.

        • Serino’s MO was to keep GZ talking, and play “good cop.” The “voice stress test” is just a ruse to get GZ on the record one more time telling his entire narrative fresh to someone without being questioned. Singleton led him too much in her initial interview, and was probably told she’d messed up. This is not how you handle a murder suspect – filling in the last part of thier sentences and asking leading questions. No, you just give them enough rope and keep the tape rolling. GZ “passed” the test so he felt he could keep talking and that officers were on his side. It gained them the video walk thru and kept him from calling a lawyer.

          He aslo said in the stress test narrative the following:” my rough notes only, sorry no transcript:

          and i went to go for my phone instinctively
          and call 911
          jacket pket
          and i reached and i was looking

          and he just punched me in the nose and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up

          This is what a “good cop” does. He keeps the suspect talking and not asking for a lawyer.

          Serino caught GZ in several major lies in the final session, and then went out to continue his investigation while STILL leaving GZ the impression that he was on his side. He’s no fool.

          • Willisnewton, BRILLIANT!! I had looked up reliability/validity test for the voice analysis and shows almost zero….close to horoscopes in scientific validity. So I was wondering why SPD would use something that was parallel to Casey Anthony unproved tests. I couldn’t believe they hadn’t learned anything from that equally high profile case. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!

            • Well thanks, its not brilliant tho, it’s police work 101. And the moral of the story is NEVER talk to a cop without a lawyer present, ESPECIALLY if you are innocent. GZ should have known better with his 2 years of criminal justice schooling and his magistrate father and air marshall friend. He’s an idiot who talked his way into a prison sentence IMO like a drunk trying to get out of a DUI by being friendly with the “occifer” who pulled him over. Cops are good at biting their lips while fools hang themselves.

    • @Willis
      i have been waiting since the first discovery dump for 4 7 and 10. Been posting about it for awhile now. Its been driving me insane that they did not include those three in the latest dump.
      If you go to Axiom they have a breakdown of all witness with summary and 911 calls.

      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/

      • Yes there are summaries of witnesses at axiom, and also TalkLeft has a whole subforum thread for each one, and tchoupu has a good breakdown on his imgur site.

        I’ve seen nothing new however about 4 7 and 10, who remain mystery persons at present unless I am mistaken. The index of the materials supposedly released this week says summaries of 4 7 and 10 are to be included.

        Also of course the prosecution claims a foot chase witness, and at the last bond hearing claims chase witnesses PLURAL. Is this W2 and DeeDee or does it refer to 4, 7 and /or 10??

      • @Loree –

        Patience, patience. We’re going to know. 🙂

        Yeah, I wish they would have given up 4,7 and 10, too. Maybe next month? I think early on, people speculated that those were slots for zimmerman’s statements (best 3 of 5?).

        It’ll come. I’m still waiting for the full 300+ dump2 (not 284/285 pages) and for the full M&I video.

        • Ah, Common Sense I have alot of virtues but patience is not one of them.
          : ^))))

20. WHAAAAAT? Zimmerman asks for new Judge…AGAIN.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/13/trayvon-martin-case-georg_n_1672219.html

    • The less time wasted here on this matter, the better I’d say. Lester will either recuse himself (doubtful) or toss the motion. None of the merits of the case will change as a result.

      The prosecution will file a rebuttal early next week, should be fun to read that one, but this is a bald faced attempt by the defense to play to the cheap seats and get more donations, I’d say. The claim lacks merit, esp since Lester signaled no bias and granted GZ his bond request.

      What M’OM wrote reads like a wingnut fantasy comment from the Conservative Treehouse and is a page from their playbook that, like a lot of their whining, leads nowhere. But it may rehabilitate M’OM with the lunatic fringe that feels he is “soft,” and thus has acted to slow the flow of funds to “Peter Pan” (and the lost boys’ bank accounts) aka the defense fund.

      • Yup, requesting more favorable treatment is not relevant to the criminal case; just reporting the newest event. Legal analysts believe it is just SOP that will not be entertained.

21. am i the only one who thought the scared phone call from an anon woman saying George and family were racist was the ex. After reading the latest release it certainly isn’t the ex fiance that had a domestic violence order out on him so it must be someone else. Wonder if anything else will come of it.

    • I’m very, very confused about that after reading the statement from the ex. The Judge is allowing the release of the second recorded statement from W9; it was in a ruling today, but we’ll have to wait if that ruling is challenged considering they are trying to kick him off.

    • Most suspect it is the ex, bit others have wondered if it is someone who knows the father and mother better than she may have. GZ was somewhat estranged from the family, apparently since his mother allegedly beat him and there are some personal issues we don’t fully know about going on there. Does it really matter who it is? They knew GZ and have some things to say about him that I think I heard were corroborated elsewhere.

      My curiosity is piqued by the revelations regarding GZ’s fidelity issues when he was with the ex, but only in regards to how that will play out as Shellie contemplates her perjury charge and how loyal she cares to remain to George. No one has a perfect relationship, and I don’t like the prurient, voyeuristic sick feeling I get listening to jailhouse phone calls but this is where the case may break wide open, if Shellie decides her first loyalty is to herself and not a lying husband, if that is her assessment of him when the final moment comes for her case.

      I think the whole family might be caught in a criminal conspiracy of some sort and each is sitting metaphorically around a table eyeing the other to see who will crack first in return for immunity from prosecution. DId the father know about the hidden money, etc? (lots to consider there – is GZ in the habit of lying to his dad or was the dad in the loop on $ and/or passport? it’s one or the other.) Who is “ken?” How did the mom assume they paid back her $4500 loan? and so on.

      The person who has a grudge against GZ is just a small leak in the dike that holds a floodwater of dirty water, I’d guess. How long until someone cracks?

      • @willisnewton

        I’ve read that “Ken” is actually someone named Scott. Apparently, in the jail calls they are talking about “Ken,” but then SZ slips up and calls him Scott. I noticed on the list of evidence to be released doc that there was a Scott McLeod (last name might be spelled incorrectly) on the list of witnesses.

        • thanks! now, next question, who is Scott McLoud?

          • Still digging on that one! I would like to figure out if his statement is included in what was released and which statement that might be if it was. He is the one advising GZ to keep a lot of cash available, etc. Also, I remember GZ stating that Mark met with Ken, which now I need to dig up those transcripts to see if it denotes if it was O’Mara or his buddy that met with this Ken character.

          • http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/18/george-zimmermans-phone-calls-jail_n_1605592.html

            Second transcript listed on the second page is where SZ slips up and calls him Scott. Still digging for the “met with Mark” part.

          • Call 5, Page 4! SZ – “I have not heard from O’Mara, but Ken did.” They talk about them having to work some stuff out.

            Also, SZ mentions the name Kevin, but who knows if she’s messing up the “Ken” name.

            I can’t read anymore of that crap. He talks to her like she’s slow, and she kind of seems like it. Oy.

            • Thanks, I can’t stand listening to those voices either. My general interest in all this relates to the passport and hidden $ conspiracy, not tabloid rumor mongering about their private lives. It’s all so icky, but the conspiracy question has to be raised “who knew and when did they know it” regarding the passport and money hidden from the court. I said it before and the judge wrote it in almost the same language – but for the GPS on his leg, GZ left jail the first time with means, motive and opportunity to flee the country. He also may have hung around out of greed, as the money was still flowing in. Moving the passport from a joint account is the key – IMO he expected his accounts not to be searched, but SEIZED after he failed to appear at a hearing. Without the GPS on his leg he could have had quite a head start and a “great life” as he told Shellie.

            • @willisnewton

              I feel like some sort of creepy eaves dropper when listening to those phone calls, but yes, I’m just looking for who knew what and when. How much did they know, how were they involved, and I would think it interesting to know if any acknowledge the deception aspect of it. I think he had motive, means, and opportunity, and intended to flee if it started looking bad for him. That is my personal opinion. I think he was going to wait it out a bit, let more money roll in, and be prepared to run.

              Only a handful of calls were released out of over a hundred, so maybe when those are released, we will have more answers.

        • @qetno,
          Over one hundred? In jail, were they letting him just hang out on the phone all day? Maybe they let him to try to get as much recorded as possible? That seems like an outrageous number of calls though.

          • I thought the same thing when I heard about all the phone calls, seem very excessive. GZ is a nut. He talks too much.

        • @Sproutlette

          145, IIRC. It definitely does seem like a lot of calls for such a short time span. Personally, I think he’s a control freak, and does not like when he’s not in control of things.

          • “Personally, I think he’s a control freak, and does not like when he’s not in control of things.”

            Zimmerman will definitely not like 25+ years of being told what to do.

    • I wondered about this too. Whoever she is, she has a child. I am thinking that it is the teenage mother mentioned by the Ex.

      • Wow – Holy shit… I didn’t even think about that! Now that would be something, especially since this woman said something along the lines of things GZ had done to her that she would never speak to him about again. Interesting. I guess we will soon find out.

22. Orlando Sentinel reporting that the Judge ordered the rest of Zimmerman’s jail calls and W9’s statement to be released.

23. BREAKTHROUGH

    BIG ONE but what does it mean?

    Thank you Leelee above in Comment 8. I sweated on these bank videos and then I missed what they meant. But you GOT IT.

    

    is my screen capture of the last customer at the M&I bank Rinehart Rd ATM, and the [person who took GZ out of jail after the second bond. As Leelee says is
    MARK OSTERMAN. Check against his Facebook for yourselves, I couldn’t screenshot that.

    GUYS: best buddy, shooting teacher, disgraced former deputy, air marshall friend was there BEFORE THE SHOOTING.

    He drove out from the ATM at 6.38 pm. A mere 60 – 80 seconds from GZ’s main gate. While it is possible he was just passing through, no need for him to go to this bank, as there is another M&I much closer to where he lives, at Lake Mary.

    So, 6.40 or a bit later if he made a detour say to Walmart.

    Problem with 6.40 is, that is exactly the time Trayvon would be walking along Orlando Avenue on his way to the corner shortcut.

    Didn’t we say all along there was a tip-off?

    Well somewhere GZ says his wife is with his friend. Sitting at home? or “I’ll handle it buddy, meanwhile why don’t run Shellie up to Target for me?”

    This guy seems to favour black or red T-shirts in case anyone wonders.

    I’ve been working and up 26 hours, I can’t do the precise timelines right now.

    • oh the claim about George being beaten as a kid comes from this witness^^^ who didn’t know him back then. So it is a story obtained from Zimmerman which will need external evidence to back it up.

      • If I’m ever in Australia, or you’re ever in the USA, I AM BUYING YOU A DRINK!

        Thanks for reporting this find! I’ve been saying it was weird that he had a buddy at his place then decided to go grocery shopping all along! Suspicions, CONFIRMED.

        • Ahh.. So it was you! Good catch and thank you! I just relied on that tidbit above, but couldn’t remember who to thank.

          • And here I thought it was just my over active mind focusing on a minute detail, lol. It may be relevant after all!

      • It’ll be interesting to see if his DNA can be placed on the gun, TM, the flashlight, etc.

      • Is he going for the I’m a sociopath and crazy killer because mommy was mean to me plea?

    • I knew I knew that bank video was important. I knew it would show Trayvon had been spotted outside. But I didn’t know who by.

      Leelee further up is the one made the connection, I just checked it and found the images. Definitely him.

      Yeah what GUY does the week’s shopping without his wife? (he told Serino or Singleton they always do the weeks’ shopping Sunday nights). And then leave her home alone with a male visitor instead ? well ok old friend best buddy, known him 5 or 6 years, but still… more sensible to say here’s the money sweetheart, go on your own while I catch up with my mate, eh?

      “Just tell her I shot somebody”….. no details needed, she knew where he’d gone and why, just to set her mind at ease about hearing the sirens coming in.
      Buddy Mark lied about her calling him. Well maybe he said “call” hoping it would be understood as “rang on phone” but maybe she just “called” from next room. Take them 23 seconds to get to where the police cars were. Take them 95 seconds to get his car home and come back again, to visit the scene and for friend to “talk brieifly” with the police.

      WAS IT HIM inside the crime scene they had to ask to leave???? former deputy, maybe they knew him, too………..

      ============
      Doubt they’ll find anything off him on the debris. The police were already there before he arrived. The gun was already in custody (with or without a bag, on front seat of police car GZ was sitting in back of, according to an EMT evidence).
      =============
      Not him in white t-shirt either. Seems to prefer black (on the videos I copied) or red (Facebook) and not there soon enough to be anyone seen by witnesses.
      ============
      HE was just the TIP OFF.

      He turns into Orlando Ave about 6.41 – 6.43. Trayvon leaves 7-11 at 6. 32 or 6.33 (let’s thanks our “friends” at Tree/Nuthouse for showing he was there a few minutes after actually walking out the door) and gets to the corner of Orlando comfortably around 6.40 – 6.44.

      Ambling slowly in light rain, hoodie on, strange… might be a goon (not coon, “goon” as in local gang name)…. headed where? only to friend GZ’s estate. In fact it starts to rain heavy and he’s heading towards the shortcut.

      Is he going to show up at GZ’s door and forget to mention this???
      ================

      So by 6.48 – 6.50 GZ goes out to look for him. Perhaps he drives outside, perhaps just hangs around the short-cut. I rather like that youtube, someone mentioned it just this past 2 days, where TM takes shelter under awnings in the next sub-division along, before moving onto the shortcut near Taaffe’s place.

      Tchoupi’s middle map

      Trayvon Martin

      along RVC past the intersection, u-turn, back again, all slowly….. looking to see where someone went. ( his marks A B C D) Catch a glimpse of movement at mailbox. Quick u-turn (E) quick right into TTL, long slow 10-second stare at mailboxes, ( G H I ) before u-turn to watch from a bit more distance.

      NO WAY Trayvon doesn’t know by now he’s being followed.

      The rest, well we know how that went.

      GZ went out armed on a tip-off. NW is not allowed to do that. He wasn’t accidentally armed-as-usual for the dangrous-Target-store, he went out to FIND a reported suspect. Armed. Then happened to “go in the same direction at the same time” by car and on foot for at least 8 minutes before feeling his life in mortal danger. Which luckily for him he had set out fully equipped and ready for.

      Depraved is not the word for it.

      But I would not call it premeditated. Just prepared to do it if necessary to the extent of not trying to avoid the necessity. A truly brave and fearless act, as his “suspect” could easily have had a firearm too, if he’d been what GZ thought he was. Then a sudden flush of power when he saw it was only Iced Tea.

      • @Aussie –

        I don’t buy into the killing an unarmed teen was an act of bravery under any circumstance. Zimmerman is no hero. To pretend its heroic is to say what Zimmerman did *is* premeditated as in he is at war with the enemy (in this case, a non-combat citizen Zimmerman wrongly became suspicious of). There has been no congressional declaration of war against black teens and there was no crime in progress.

        It is not heroic to gun down citizens as though we’re living in Syria. I agree that depraved is to mild of a word for the depravity that Zimmerman exhibited when he chose to gun down the unarmed child.

        It’s one thing to be afraid of an armageddon prompting one to hide food and living supplies in buried bunkers. It’s quite another to go out looking for people to kill because of a fear that black teens are guilty of future crimes with a mindset that you’re saving the world from the armageddon of teenagers.

      • The bank is the other direction from the 7-11, so had Osterman been driving down Oregon, he would likely not have seen Trayvon enter The Retreat via the shortcut. But, if he had been going to visit GZ, HE might have been driving right by Frank Taaffe’s unit when Trayvon emerged from behind the building. If so, and Osterman cued GZ, then huge parts of GZ’s story are fabricated to hide Osterman’s involvement. I received a PM from a YouTube user who said the security vid of the pool shows TM walking along it’s South side, so he may not have walked down RVC at all, but rather along the path behind the homes and clubhouse, which O may have slowed enough to observe, thus directed GZ to position himself at the point of emergence over on TTL…..

        So much new speculation… This has turned into a detective show mystery plot.

        • So, Zimmerman has more to tell. But, his phone records will do that.

        • Hi there Whonoze, have been thinking about you a lot lately, lol ! I really think that GZ was driving while on the phone with dispatch so I have been using your “click-clack” conspiracy video and Tchoupi’s clubhouse findings to match up GZ’s path….so thanks…also hoping that tchoupi will help me with some tweaking 🙂

    • That sounds interesting Aussie. Bravo!!!
      We should follow that trail more closely.

      • Worth holding the pop corn for?

    • In the daily mail article, there is a good picture of Osterman – the 2nd picture, where he is behind GZ with hair.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2173340/Revealed-The-ex-cop-best-friend-taught-George-Zimmerman-shoot-hid-weeks-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-accompanies-police-interrogation.html

      His nose flair is very distinctive. Compare that pic against the axiom amnesia screengrab, and the nose flair matches. Also the amount of 2nd chin matches.

      • @Toneii

        ” Also the amount of 2nd chin matches.”

        LMAO, thank you for starting my morning off with a good laugh! Much appreciated. 🙂

        • haha he has more Chins than China…haha joking

          • Jo, all I gotta say…

            • lol cute kid!!

            • He knows what’s up!

            • for sure, i have been scolded by a 4 year old!!!

      • And… He was fired from his former deputy job because he was conned by a fraudster (not Zimmerman this time) into providing “body guard” services for a big fee. Notice any similarities? Guess Osterman didn’t learn from his previous mistakes.

        • Thought the same thing. Almost copied/pasted the last paragraph from the Sentinel’s report.

        • He was fired for helping the con artist. Do we really know if he was conned himself or was he a conspirator? He was fired for breaking policy, and essentially lying to his employer – aka lying to investigators like GZ has demonstratively done.

          • Hm, very interesting point. We don’t know whether he was really conned or not, or if that was merely his defense when it all came to light.

          • This is the problem I’m having: As many have said this does not seem to fit the profile of a premeditated killing. I will grant you all that, and yet, there are strange anomalies that seem to be excusable, only if this scenario has been discussed before hand by GZ with people who had some knowledge of what might be involved.

            There’s a very strong thread of trying to bring things into compliance with NW rules as much as possible, and to otherwise confuse issues that can’t be brought into line. Just look at the “You can’t say that’s” which pepper the narratives, where saying “that” would push the whole thing over the line into criminality. These “can’t says” are just to subtle to figure out on a moments notice. Yet the answers to them are clearly lies.

            Then the Osterman resource appears with a definite skill set that compliments the nights activities. Which, by the way, feeds back into the idea that the GZ wounds might be a bit older than they should be. The Osterman resource also enhances the idea that TM could have been a bit more than just a target of opportunity.

            I mean, even with Osterman out at the bank, on the road, he’d have had to follow TM, to know where he was going, right? He couldn’t be guessing about it, since TM could very well have been living in that community to the west where he duck into. If Osterman figures in this, then he also had to see TM leave, the community, but wait! Merely seeing someone leave a house, doesn’t automatically mean they’re going to return there, right? TM, if not known, could have simply been visiting and, if so, it would be an assumption that he’d go to his home after the store. So, to secure him as a target, a wee bit more had to be known about him, than any chance encounter could provide. The “unknown to the community” Osterman resource fill the gap nicely.

            Then the question is begged: Why would Osterman want to involve himself in the matter of a total stranger being shot, even if by a close friend, if he had nothing to do with it? Without a good, iron clad alibi for my time that night, I sure wouldn’t want to offer to house the shooter myself. Doesn’t Osterman know or remember that he used an ATM in the area? He certainly would be able to discount it, if he had something planned. His skill set is just a tad too high, for him to be so close and yet not involved.

            But hey, that’s perhaps just more of my paranoid rambling eh? We shall have to wait and see what else develops.

            • @Lonnie, I thoroughly enjoy reading your “paranoid rambling!” 🙂

              Osterman’s level of involvement confused me greatly, too. Do we know where he resides? He happened to be in the area that night, which is interesting, but then for whatever reason GZ and/or SZ felt compelled to call him immediately after the shooting, but why? Why does GZ feel compelled in his interview to offer up that his wife was able to move the car because she was with his friend Mark? Does he say this to cover up for a vehicle being there or not being there, or another person being there, or what? I don’t see why anyone was compelled to immediately call this Mark person or why it needs to be know that his presence there allowed Shelley to move the vehicle. If Shelley wanted to move the vehicle just to get it off the street, she wouldn’t need another person there to do this since the vehicle was in the neighborhood where she could just WALK to get it.

              I’m just confused.

            • Yes, this is the kind of thing that makes be think “entanglement”. “Helping her move the car”, could also be a cover for him to exit the area in case he’s spotted. We definitely need to know where he lives, since that will tell us how much trouble it was for him to “be in the area” when “needed”.

              I hate to say it, but it’s beginning to sound to me like something out of a murder mystery novel, where there is much still unseen, that bears on the nights events, perhaps even dating back to TM’s last visit.

              I noted in the other videos that most of the kids filmed using the cut through were white. TM would probably be the only black kid in the nabe who isn’t too well known. So, you wouldn’t have the community coming out to his defense.
              So that would be something to start with if one was planning to pick a target.

              The benefit of picking a “sometimes” visitor is, you won’t have a lot of people saying he wasn’t suspicious at all. GZ seems to be able to say with some confidence that TM is suspicious and acting strangely, as if on drugs, perhaps because he knows that he won’t be easily refuted? Or, just imagine him trying to get away with saying that about one of the communities better known black children. Can’t think of a better way to set off a wave of outrage.
              This “pick” went wrong but, look how much more time it took, 46 days.

              Had a better known child been picked, I dare say that there would have been less inclination for SPD support of GZ. I’d certainly expect a small town police force to make missteps in their investigation of a homicide, but the fact is, the lead investigators had their suspicions as well they should have. But they were thwarted by higher ups, which should not be the case. The lead investigators should have been free to develop their case, not cut off at the knees by prosecutors or brass.

              I find the “Osterman resource” to be quite impressive to small town anything. So, perhaps the OR was mentoring GZ’s career?

              Good thing the FBI is in on this, they have the resources needed to investigate this Osterman resource more fully.

      • This commentary system is confusing. I just came across this now. Osterman lives at Lake Mary which is 1 or 2 subdivisions south of Retreat at Twin Lakes. There is an M&I bank there. But this Target is the closest to him, if he wants to go shopping there.

        More likely he was on a planned visit to the Z’s.

        It is even not impossible they were having money problems and that was related to his visit to the ATM.

        • If the person in the M&I video is Osterman, you’ll notice a “stuffed” look as he reaches for the ATM. You’ll also notice him belch (or at least deep exhale). I wonder what the Zimmermans were serving for dinner that night?

        • That was some funny video. The elderly couple was also a hoot. Grandma’s getting the cash and grandpa’s picking his nose.

24. Even the Weather Contradicts George Zimmerman.

    Same location (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII). Last chart…

    • I want Zimmerman to have just told one truth by the time this is all over. Just one.

      • I stand corrected. Zimmerman said he shot Trayvon Martin and that ended up being true (I think).

        • @NLME

          “(I think).”

          LOL.

          On another note, I’m liking the new moderation system! Thanks for changing the setting. 🙂

          • Lovin’ it! NLME!!

            • Hmmm.. I meant to say Thank You NLME!!

      • He told 2 truths I know of

        “I shot this person”

        “I was driving….”

        • haha aussie don’t jump to conclusions yet…it might have been Deputy Dawg (osterman) driving, lol, where was his/zimmermans/shellies car again?? jeez i can’t keep up

      • LOL! I thought I already mentioned that he’s truthful in answering to the name “George Zimmerman”. That’s all we’re gonna get in the truth department from this guy. I’m not even sure at this point if that’s the truth! 🙂

    • The otherwise fairly useless bank videos are excellent for weather. They are just around the corner, show open spaces, and cover from around noon to 8 pm. I’ll watch one of them and note the times of the showers. And what time it gets really dark.

    • I just had to put a link to your work on my blog. Nice work on the weather graph.

25. I said months ago GZ was never on his way to Target…(who goes to Target with a loaded gun?) but finding out about the bank survelience, it gives me the chills. To think that someone “tipped” him.. Geez.. If that’s not premeditated I don’t know what it is. I just figured GZ saw Trayvon some other way but now I know GZ had an accomplice, a partner in crime. He actually thought he was an officer didn’t he? This man (and his crew) are way more twisted than I ever imagined. MOM has some nerve petitioning to have Lester thrown off the case.. I wish I could be there in the court when he rules on that lol! I won’t underestimate MOM for a second.. He’s smart and deliberate. He knows his motion will be denied.. So what’s the reason behind it?

    • We speculated at one time he was tipped off by Taaffe, who lives with a good view of the shortcut.

      But the timing of this friend’s visit is spot on and documented by the video. Not his “crew”, a visitor from a few subdivisions away, but a close friend, the guy who taught him to shoot. A former County Deputy who resigned after being involved in a scandal, working on the side as bodyguard for a supposed sporting celebrity who turned out to be a con man.

      MOM is playing for public sympathy because it brings in the $$$$$$$$$.

      • Seems this fellow has been quite successful keeping himself out of MSM. Guess he wasn’t as charming as Frank T. or Joe Oliver (not!) lol! At times I go back and watch Joe Oliver’s tv interviews just for kicks.. for some strange reason I almost always expect him to say “my friend George is a gentle soul.. He loves blacks.. I danced at his wedding.. And sat next to his black great grandfather..”

        Birds of a feather do flock together, don’t they? If his friends are the only character witnesses he can provide.. He is in big trouble.

      • Don’t leave Taaffe out of this quite yet! Trayvon passed right by his windows. Maybe Z acted when both Osterman and Taaffe told him to.

        • Agreed and Taaffe seems particularly peeved about black kids using the cut-through.

      • Osterman is definitely a new twist. Frank Taaffe (although name blacked out) says in his statement to police that he did not know GZ on a personal level, but now is his new best friend. Creepy creepy people all over the place in “The Retreat”! And GZ had a new gun, does the insanity ever end?

26. i don’t remember seeing any mention of this Osterman until reading his statement. Did anyone else make mention of him? He was at the scene, at the police station, at the re-enactment and at the 3rd interview but so far i don’t remember any mention of him until this statement. He is Zims only close friend, funny that. So he maybe spotted Tray and told Zim that he saw him cutting through or something, Zim jumps in his car and goes searching. Another gripe, the FBI appear to have just asked random people walking down the street if they know him…well that might be a slight exaggeration but half of the people never actually met him and others only knew him through work….i don’t know about you guys but if you are racist or violent your work mates would be the last to know, it’s not something you broadcast. i wonder if there are more statements yet to be released, less favourable to George. So far all we know is that he wasn’t violent or racist at work, and that he didn’t lose his temper with anyone that had a casual acquaintance with him….that doesn’t really tell us much.

    • I agree with what you’re saying. In addition, racism is complex and comprised of many components; it can be extremely subtle and hard to detect. I don’t think the findings reported tell us much at all.

    • Listen to the jail calls again. GZ and GZ talk about a security team, or whatever code words they use – this is Osterman, I’m guessing.

      (By the way, I’m renting the late-period Sam Peckinpah film tonight, THE OSTERMAN WEEKEND in honor of everyone here who is following this odd development. lol)

      I’ve often wondered why GZ parked so far from the corner at the cut thru – was there one car ahead of him? Some who have tried to analyze clubhouse videos claim to see two cars moving in concert with one another – I have to go back and read that stuff again now – anyone else see that? GZ in the recreation video amends his parking directions as the car nears the corner. At first he seems to mean right behind the ford truck that’s always on the corner, mentioning a sign (doggie waste reminder sign, short and at the start of the cut thru path) as his first direction and then he amends it to the spot where there is a break in the townhomes. Was there a car ahead of him already???

      This is a puzzle piece that needs to be taken around to every spot there is to see if it might fit.

      Osterman was involved in a scandal that drove him out of his sheriff’s deputy job. He’s no stranger to controversy, or to acting as private security and screwing it all up. If he’s on the same intellect level as GZ he’s likely made numerous mistakes. Did he admit he went to the ATM? How would Corey’s investigative team get to where they knew to look at these bank videos? Where are his full statements and the recordings thereof, and who in the media will be the first to file a sunshine law request for all the materials?

      Move fast, use screencapture on anything he controls – his social media will be scrubbed ASAP. Myspace, anyone?

      • Zimmerman’s phone records will connect the dots. My guess is he left the bank, sees TM going towards the shortcut, calls GZ, and the rest is history

        • GZ’s phone records are yet another thing I thought we were going to see this week. The prosecution has every right to shield their strategy at trial and so seems to be slow-walking the discovery process. I can’t blame them. But at times it’s frustrating working with an incomplete puzzle.

          His text messages will be evidence/ discovery too I think.

          Note how terrible the map GZ drew on is reproduced, and the photo of GZ in theback of the cop car, and the total station map – a lay person couldn’t make head or tails of them, and I should know, being one, lol.

          • The 2nd evidence dump was only supposed to include the search warrant for Zimmerman’s phone records. I’ve learned (via twitter) that they will be introduced at the trial and no sooner. Not sure if that’s true.

        • No need to ring. Going there for a visit anyway, he’s only 1 or 2 minutes away driving. Most likely was not deliberately “spotting”. Just ” hello, how are you, hey do you have much trouble with them goon gangs around here? ‘cos I think I just saw one heading this way…” as a fairly casual observation. GZ’s ears perk up, gets details, yeah ok stay here guys I’ll be back shortly…….

        • I don’t think the Osterman Resource was at the bank to draw or deposit money. Going to the bank to do anything is not a pleasant exercise, is why some banks are switching to make cell phone banking possible.
          Besides, what would he need money for on a rainy night like that? Especially since most debit cards are as good as cash at most stores. No! The Osterman resource is at the bank for one purpose only, to track TM across the street at 711.

          He can’t go into the 711 lot, because, as the 711 video shows, there’s just too few people there, he’s likely to be spotted. He certainly doesn’t want to appear on the 711 videos, since he knows they’ll be “pulled”, assuming he knows something is going to happen later, that requires them to be pulled.

          The bank videos, however, aren’t likely to be pulled, and if pulled, they’re not likely to be viewed for anything, since they’re connected to nothing. So, there’s little to no reason for the Osterman resource to think he’ll be discovered in the bank video.

          Now you’ll see why I’m calling him “the Osterman Resource”! What earthly reason does he have, to go over to RATL and not make immediate contact with GZ at his home? Aha?!? GZ is not at home, eh? GZ is out on the road, and SZ makes no mention of the Osterman Resource coming to the house to find out where GZ is… So, GZ and the OR must have been talking by phone! The phone logs of the OR will probably help us fill in the gaps of time we have. that was thought to be idle time. Or, maybe the Osterman Resource was using a throwaway phone or texting? Or, how about a cb?
          That certainly would explain why GZ’s truck had to be gotten out of the area so fast, eh?

          In any event, at least in my wild dreamwork mind, the Osterman Resource is beginning to look like the key!

      • Don’t forget, “The Osterman Weekend” was an early Robert Ludlum book first.

        (and actually better than the movie)

        unitron

      • @ Lonnie
        re the money – if ,say you are dropping in to see a friend at the time he normally goes shopping, … and say the friend is having difficulties…then you would take out cash to slip to him to help him out, right? not give him your debit card and PIN.
        He shows up on the actual ATM video, the one that shows people using it. HE was using it.

        re the 7-11 they are not opposite each other.
        

        I believe he was in the area for a private and innocent purpose (like my first paragraph). Casually mentions seeing a Goon-looking someone heading this way. There is no huge conspiracy going on. They’re just like-minded enough to consider that kind of thing worth mentioning.

        He and SZ decided to wait, he’ll be back in 20 mins. Instead of a triumphant return they get a phone call. Let’s go see. It has to be on the estate’s 3 streets, they already hear the sirens approach. The MAIN reason for “tell my wife I shot somebody” is to tell her “it’s OKAY it was NOT ME GOT SHOT”.

        They get to the scene. Oh, he’s being taken to the police station, well maybe we’d better take his car home then, we can go pick him up at the cops’ later.

        And of COURSE they go spend the rest of the night with him. It’s been a shock, a hard night, a lot to talk about. He needs help, companionship, moral support through the ordeals of all the interviews in the coming days. (Not to mention coaching etc).

        Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. KISS.

        • What’s the likelihood that GZ is protecting MO?

          If MO really came over to GZ’s house with a tip, odds are they went out to play cop together. What if they were both in the car, and MO goes south down TTL while GZ goes towards the cut through?

          Keep in mind GZ AND MO are both bald white guys. So it is possible that TM doesn’t perceive them as two different people. to tell DD about.

          Maybe TM tries to go home, sees MO coming from the south, and that causes him to go north towards the T?

          It seems like some details have been removed from peoples stories, notably, “the gun is on the ground” and “what did you use, a 9mm or .40?”. These statements would make sense in context of conversation between GZ and MO. MO is wearing black. It’s dark, people are around with flashlights. No one really knows who was who and who was where. It’s possible. From a character perspective, it is more likely.

          • Yes, Ostermans choice of black means he can wander the estate at night and not be seen like a ghost. Everyone else seems to be wearing lighter colors, eh? I guess he fancies him self as a Langley Spook?

        • Aussie, I second the motion that simple answers are best looked at first. However, I’m still not convinced that OS is in the video and that he’s the spotter. If he was, I’d think he’d have gone on the ride with GZ and there’s no evidence that says he was in the truck with him (i.e. Deedee said there’s a crazy guy following him, not two crazy guys). The most telling is in the re-enactment video, he starts to say “My wife…” then pauses and then says “I was going to the grocery store.” She has the history of spotting characters as well (i.e., AA people running by her house). So she was going to the grocery store (or back from it) and goes home to tell him about it so maybe he could just call 911. She probably protested when he said I’ll go and check it out first. I think on the police videos when he was with the female cop that he says “my wife was so mad”. You’d think that a wife who believed his story and that he had no fault in it would be “so worried” or “so scared” or “so relieved he’s alive”. But no she was initially “so mad” because he went out there when so told him not to.

          Also, they were not in that much debt and GZ is too egotistical to have taken money from his buddy (sure, they’d take money from his mother, not close friends he looks up to). But is that relevent?

          Regarding the question of how MO could have gotten in when the gates were blocked if he wasn’t there already. Same as Austin’s mom who came home and parked across the street and walked in. With his marshall’s badge, he wouldn’t have had trouble if they were checking IDs.

        • I noted that I goofed earlier on about the bank.

          But now that you’ve posted the graphic, I would ask that someone take a look at the street view of Rinehart drive, since it looks like someone at the bank would be able to view through to 7-11’s section of the road, and TM would have to spend several minutes on Rinehart walking back home.

          Then there’s NLME’s mention that Osterman would get to GZ’s about 5 minutes after TM entered the grounds?

          Oh wait, I see, you’re saying he wasn’t on a trip to the store, but out to look for the intruder? I guess Osterman should confirm this? Or did he just give GZ money to go shopping by himself? Didn’t they say he usually goes with Shellie? Why didn’t they all go with him? There certainly would be no danger in simply spotting an intruder on the grounds, if you didn’t plan to confront them, eh?

          But, like I said, I didn’t do the math, so these are just questions I’ll be watching for answers to. Many here are so far ahead with maps and time data, and they have websites to feed as well, reason enough to think the answers will come.

          I agree no need to work up conspiracies where none exist. But, as you well know, conspiracies are easily covered up if no one looks too closely at the details. It is because the acts of conspirators have simple and easy, alternative explanations to hide behind, that make them difficult to detect.

27. So, now we have an idea of who may have tipped off GZ. But we still don’t know how much more this Osterman may have also been capable of. He’s “available” in time to have quite some connection to the matter. For example, he could have been on the grounds, on foot and marauding in the area, doing things before TM was shot, and even helping with evidence redistribution afterwards. Remember this man has quite some field skills, that would be very useful in arranging a crime scene. If only by instructing what evidence needs to be compromised for sure.

    Dressed in all black, on a night when eyewitnesses can’t seem to see things nearby, he could practically roam the area freely without being seen.

    Could it be his presence that drove TM away from his house? I don’t know, but GZ seems to be gaining more resources as time goes on, eh?

    • hi lonnie, i must say im pretty shocked about this guy. Who knew Zim had a buddy on scene (not Taffe), someone very experienced with law enforcement who claims he didnt coach but as Serino said Zim sounded scripted. Why? Why was he there, why was he the first person Shellie contacted, why was he allowed in interviews etc, why does no statement mention him being there? It has certainly added a new twist.

    • I think he was already there. The entrances were blocked off, and it doesn’t seem he is mentioned in any of the reports. Kind of weird, honestly. It will be interesting to see what GZ’s phone records show. If he was indeed there before the shooting, I don’t see why GZ would leave with him still at the house. I’d think if GZ was going somewhere, whether to the store or to go look for TM, that the buddy would go with, too.

      • If MO was going there to visit, he just said I think I saw one of them goons heading this way.

        Nah, no need for you to get involved, buddy. Keep my wife company for a while, I can handle this, be back soon……….

        “Just tell her I just shot somebody”… ‘cos she knows where he went and why. MAYBE some prearranged hypothetical earlier talk about good idea to move the vehicle, so she moves it. MO meanwhile hanging around the scene, being the deputy the cops maybe know.

        There’s more to this though, somewhere. Because why would they get the bank videos except to prove or disprove someone having been in the area at the time? not just on an off-chance. They must have been looking for something specific.

        Yet there’s nothing so far in anything that’s been released that would make the timing of MO’s arrival important enough to get video confirmation about. So there must be some other statement from MO to say he went to the bank, which has not been recorded and/or handed over.

        • I am late to the discussion but reviewing all your thoughtful comments. I felt that from what I have read Trayvon had been staying at his Dad’s girlfriends house for the better part of a week, correct me if I am wrong. I believe GZ snoop and spy coupled with his disdain for young black men knew this in fact probably tracked all of TM’s movements. I don’t find it a big surprise to have him fully aware of when TM left. And yes it will all be in GZ’s phone records. We will not know till trial if we ever get there since with all of Z’s donations and support drying up he is a ticking time bomb. I doubt suicide is his future but I would not be surprised at some point we find his demise is by “suicide by cop”!

          • There are now some experts who believe TM lived for a short time after being shot.
            http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-trayvon-martin-autopsy-20120817,0,2058156.story

            • I doubt that very much for any reasonable definition of “living”. GZ was using hollow point Parabellums, and when you get one of those chewing up your lungs and heart, you are toast.

    • While I agree Osterman is potentially involved from before the shot was fired, we lack evidence to say so. I also think there is no evidence TM was ever “by his house” except in the sense that he was a lot closer to home than he was to the 7Eleven and that’s what he was telling DeeDee when she recalls TM saying he was close to home, or wherever he actually said.

      The timing of the call back from Dee Dee is right around the time TM may have been being followed down TTL from the clubhouse to the cut thru. I think TM ran off the roadway and between the houses and the ONLY evidence that we have that he went ANYWHERE after that is the scattered objects between the tan bag and his cell phone. Based on that evidence and what I know about teenage boys on calls to girls, he stopped running once he was safely off the roadway where the problem was, and stood around in the dark talking to her until GZ’s keychain flashlight shone on him, roughly in John;s back yard the whole time.

      Yes, he had time to go elsewhere (GZ had time to go many places as well) but what evidence it there of it? None. Speculation that Brandy Green’s comment about him being on the porch is ridiculous and has been spread too widely. She was not home then, and her remark is a common one for grieving folks, and meant “one moment they’re here, and then they are dead.” Please be careful not to spread misinformation and speculationthat is un-sourced.

      Getting back to Osterman however, the sealing of the gates is interesting to note, if only we knew more about how well it was done and at what time – anyone care to say what is known about this, and give a url?. A cop was directed to run the plates of two cars parked near the ends of the cut thru, and both came back as belonging to residents – but one could have been the honda ridgeline, right? People have wondered if patrol cars had video rolling as they approached the scene. Unknown at present…

      Knowing what evidence to move or obscure is POSSIBLE but unlikely – how would Osterman know what is the right thing to hide or move, unless he spoke to GZ?

      • “Please be careful not to spread misinformation and speculationthat is un-sourced.”

        I am certainly not in the business of spreading misinformation. I do not claim as fact that Osterman was there before; I only state that I believe he may have been in the neighborhood prior to the incident, which I base on the statement of GZ and the fact that the PD reports that his car could not be secured at the scene because it had been moved already. It seems that would have to occur early on; GZ having Jon call SZ took place right after T. Smith arrives. I base my speculation generally on information that is already known otherwise I state “wild speculation, and I’m probably nuts for considering,” lol.

        Please realize I am only stating I believe he was in the community before, but I don’t speculate as to his involvement considering there is nothing factual to even go off of at this point. I just note that it is an oddity that I hope further information is produced.

        • no worries, it’s just a reminder to keep things on the up and up so it doesnt spiral out of hand. Lots of new info flying around, let’s keep it clean. It’s reaching a point where there almost needs to be a division of labor to aspects of the case… I just want to caution everyone in a friendly way to source things and state opinion where it is such and facts where they are cited. best of wishes to all.

      • Willi,

        I’m 100% with you. We must put our references every time a statement is made.

        Here is the article I know that refers to the gates of the complex being blocked by SPD: http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

        That article is quite long but interesting. So, deep into it, you’ll find that paragraph: “Cheryl Brown was at a Walmart that night when her daughter called, crying. She hurried home to find police blocking the gates to her subdivision. She parked her car across the street and ran to her kids.”

        Sierra & Austin called 911 at 7:19pm. So, They probably called their mom around 7:20pm. The walmart is about 4min drive from the north gate. Considering the time to get to the car and exit the parking, she probably was at the gates at around 7:30-7:35. So, if the Tampabay article is correct, the neighborhood was already locked at ~7:30, and SPD wouldn’t even let resident drive in. SPD would let them walk in, though.

        • From the bank video, MO was in a position to drive in as early as 6.41 pm. In time to alert GZ in person, face to face, to someone suspicious heading that way.

          If he was home in Lake Mary when SZ calls him (around 7.20) he’d not get there before the lock-down (unless of course, being an ex-deputy and possible familiar face, maybe being allowed in anyhow??). I’ve been at roadblocks where selected residents were allowed through, and there was no recording of who was allowed in or why.

        • They might not have let a civilian through but an ex-sheriff’s deputy and “air marshall” might be allowed in.

      • A little harsh but I still maintain Trayvon was not near the T. There is NO physical evidence to suggest that he was. Zimmerman’s story and Zimmerman’s keys are not enough evidence to me to suggestion Trayvon was anywhere near the T when the confrontation started.

        So if we are only going on evidence and not “rumors”, I would like to know the evidence other than Zimmerman’s words and Zimmerman’s keys that put Trayvon at the T.

        • I agree. Witnesses heard “voices” but no one saw two people up by the T. GZ seems to have been somewhere that be could drop his keychain flashlight for a reason – and somehow the two persons seem to have closed a gap between them. TMs tan bag is 30 feet south of the T and thats as close as he could be placed. Beyond that many things are possible.

          • It is also possible to toss keys and a flashlight several yards without being seen. So that’s another possibility, GZ did go towards the T after the shooting.

          • The tan bag, presumably empty, could just as easily have been blown north by the wind. So I wouldn’t place much faith in it as a marker. Obviously, for the bag to wind up this far from the store, TM had to have carried something in it. He would not have simply carried an empty bag along if he’d removed it’s contents. In fact, when he ran, he might have lost his grip on the bag, or it’s contents spilled on the ground, forcing him to come back north to get it.

            • I sure do wish Mr. iPhone camera guy had gotten a shot of the bag’s location before anybody else got there.

              If they pulled the bag containing the can out of the hoodie pocket and then pulled the can out of the bag to see if it was a pipe bomb or could offer a clue, that’s one thing, but if the can and the bag were separated before or during the struggle, that’s a heck of a puzzle/loose end.

              Apparently the can was still cold and unopened, so what’s it doing out of the bag?

              unitron

        • I agree. And to add to that, by the time the ear witnesses heard anything near the T, it had already escalated and had become loud.

28. If a neighborhood had a lot of sexual offenses committed in the area with the suspects all being old, white males then one day/night someone called in a non-emergency call about someone who was an old, white male, and the person was followed and shot with the person claiming SD… I don’t think there would be anyone saying it was reasonable to assume this person was a sex offender who needed to be followed and shot. Feel free to delete since this is kind of off topic.

    • I def don’t delete comments (unless the user wants me to). And, that was a good point/my main argument.

      Investigators say Zimmerman likely isn’t racist but there’s no denying he racially profiled on that night (and before).

      • Just putting out the disclaimer that I would not be offended since I know some of my comments aren’t exactly on topic…The Creep and That’s Racist Kid, lol.

        He was criminally profiling using racial elements. I don’t fault him for being suspicious and calling it in, it is his other actions.

        • “I don’t fault him for being suspicious and calling it in, it is his other actions.”

          If Trayvon was as suspicious as any other person wearing a hoodie and walking home in the rain, I agree. But, I don’t think Zimmerman would have called if not for Trayvon’s skin color.

          • I agree. He focused on black males. I’m just saying despite how much I don’t understand him calling at all and think it’s stupid he did, that’s not where my main issue lies in the events of that night. I can get past that part of it, I suppose.

            • Good point.

      • Serino said he wasn’t racist. Barnes said this wasn’t racial profiling but Serino accuses Barnes of pressuring him due to race so go figure. So Serino can accuse the black officers and the white lady married to a black man of being racially biased BUT give Zimmerman a pass…yeah okay…believe him!

        At any rate, no other investigator said he was not racist. The FBI interviewed friends, acquaintances and co-workers who I would believe have never, ever seen a racist unless they were burning a cross.

        I don’t think you get the benefit of the doubt when a black unarmed child is dead, especially after W9 and especially after the co-worker who was harassed due to his ethnicity. Further, the “ex-ho” clearly does not know what racism is if she suggests the mother wanted him to lighten the family gene pool but claims he isn’t racist.

        Now let’s connect some dots. The gang investigator suggests there are three AA gangs, one group who wears dark hoodies. Seriono suggests that the dark hoodie ALONE is the tip-off for Zimmerman of suspicion. Now we know the gang that wears the dark hoodie is exclusively AA. We know Zimmerman’s last three of four calls to 911 was because of a suspicious black person. We know that SZ accused a black teenager of stealing her bike, the cops were called and the AA family was forced to show and prove. And it turns out it wasn’t the bike. Some “genius” concludes that if GZ was a “real racist” he would have pressed charges, as if he had a choice.

        There is more than one source who discusses the dissatisfaction with the retreat when it became more diverse due to the downturn in the real estate market in Florida…it used to be 90% white, Section 8 (which I highly doubt!), no criminal background checks by absentee landlords (said by a guy with a record), all types of kids cutting through but black kids being particularly troublesome in the cut-through for some odd reason. You are being dog-whistled to here. All code words for a heightened sense around young black males in the community. They are overtly, IMO, pointing this all out for any who cares to see and most importantly GZ is responding to this heightened threat by his words, deeds and actions.

        But nope, his friends, acquaintances and co-workers says he’s not racist when we have more than one occasion of him saying disparaging things about Mexicans and Arabs! And he is calling the cops on suspicious black men for no apparent reason. And you are counting on Law Enforcement who has their share of problems around race to discern who is and is not racist. I’m going to pass on that. As someone who has studied racism because I’ve had to and have been exposed to all manners of it, GZ is a racist and he RACIALLY profiled Trayvon that night. And that is what our society has come to, it is all subtext rarely anything overt and that gives the guise of culpable deniability. Mark Zuckerberg would have been fine in that neighborhood that night with a dark hoodie. Trayvon never had a chance and if a white dude can walk freely because of his attire and a black child can’t, then it isn’t about the hoodie no matter what people will have you believe but about race.

        And for those who think it does not matter, imagine having to raise a black male child and try tp teach them the pitfalls of not ending up like Trayvon. It may not matter to some because they will never be racially profiled but it matters to me as I constantly revise that handbook to teach my child how to survive in America when you are young black and male.

        • I agree fully that Trayvon was racially profiled, not just profiled that night. It would not matter to the prosecution’s case, whether he is profiled or racially profiled, but it certainly matters for society, and especially for young black men (and the people who love them).

          The media has been hyping the “not a racist” spin from day one. In the latest, they are hyping FBI reports claiming nothing racial, putting the heaviest weight on Serino’s statement. First of all, Serino has a vested interest in protecting the SPD’s actions in not charging. Anyway, as you say, who gives a flying fig what these people’s OPINION is about George’s racial motivations? We have W9 who, in my opinion, is highly credible. She calls in after having heard the news & before there was any controversy surrounding the case. She has personal knowledge of him & his family, she is scared to go public, but she invites investigators to look closely at that aspect of GZ’s life–hoping other people won’t be “too afraid” (of him) to talk. And, she indicates that, as a mother, she is concerned that Trayvon and family get a fair shake at the truth of what might have happened that night. That sounds pretty solid to me.

          Lots of other interviewed people witness racially suspect behavior, but don’t consider it that — as you say, plenty of subtext but it all points to his attitudes: the ethnic jokes at the co-worker’s expense, witnessed by many; the blaming the black family for missing bike (he’s not a racist because when it was found to not be his bike he didn’t press charges anyway? Oh really?). We’ve got the MySpace comments, and we’ve got everyone he has a relationship with –Taaffe and his entire family — using overtly racial remarks to “prove” how George DOESN’T profile. And, they appear to be completely oblivious to what they are actually saying. These are the people George consorts with. Osterman appears to have been smart enough to keep his mouth shut on the matter, but everyone else confirms it. We also have the neighbor who said he wouldn’t jog the complex at night to avoid probs with NW (him “matching the description” being sent around in emails about who to watch for). There are former tenants who suggest similar things and black kids in the area who have suggested he treated them with disrespect. These same people who were racially/ethnically targeted by GZ, seem to want to give him the benefit of the doubt & say it’s not really racial when it clearly is. The ex’s comments also back up that the family looked highly upon marrying white, but lowly on consorting closely with non-whites.

          So, the question is, did the FBI limit their questioning to support the “he’s not a racist” spin or are they (& prosecutors) specifically holding their cards close to their chest for as long as possible? I’d like to think the latter, but I really don’t know.

          • @momisbluf –

            “The ex’s comments also back up that the family looked highly upon marrying white, but lowly on consorting closely with non-whites.”

            Good point. Note that Zimmerman’s mother didn’t even want Zimmerman to marry a Hispanic per the ex-fiance.

        • I am revisiting this comment because I find these points very important to dissect the coverup side of this case.

          Goon gangs or not, I don’t recall reading anything that indicated the other black people called in by Zimmerman as suspicious were wearing hoodies. I do, however, recall that the other people called in by Zimmerman were all black males.

          Has anyone done independent research on what apparel this so-called gang of goons wears or how this gang is otherwise identified?

          Just like Giraldo’s made up bull about hoodies being the source of Zimmerman’s suspicion, I’d like to know if the goon gang story-line given to Serino is also a made up piece of fiction.

          • I remember an article with a gang unit officer. He reference some names of gangs with the name goon in it. Just because these so called gangs are named, doesn’t mean that GZ knew about them. He never mentions in any of his calls that he suspected any person he was watching or reporting that he thought they were part of a gang. I think it was a way for people to try to explain his comment these fucking coons to goons. Even his friend MO said he wasn’t street smart. Any street smart person would know what gangs where in their neighborhood or and know their gang colors.

            http://www.walb.com/story/19009411/more-evidence-released-in-zimmerman-case?clienttype=printable

            • What you’ll find out about gang is truly terrible, here google “Sanford Florida Gangs Goons” (without the quotes) and have a look see.

              GZ would know in one hot second that he wasn’t meeting up with one of these goons, and that’s for dead sure! Secondly, if it were a goon that he was chasing, it would probably be his funeral we’d be seeing, because the goons have high powered weapons and don’t seem to be afraid to use them.

              GZ was trying to make this encounter into something it wasn’t. He was on the net, so he knew about the goons gangs. If he’d followed one of them, they would not have asked him any questions, they’d either have run away or they’d have stopped and shot him. The You Tube videos shows them brandishing automatic weapons. You don’t follow such people, they could be leading you into an ambush. They are wild, so wild you’d know them the minute you encountered one of them.

            • Thanks for info. That was a crazy video. Agreed if GZ would of spotted someone like that in the video, he would never got out of his car.

            • You know, when people make aside remarks, there’s always something behind it. So, when you replied after I also received another reply (CSFC I think), it made me think: “aha, a remark with a very leading reason behind it!” What happened was it went awry because people mistook it for “coons”, as they were looking for a racial bend to the matter. (See how holding preconceived notions blinds one to the facts of the matter?)

              What GZ was really intending to do, was to lead the public to view the goon gangs. Had we accessed that early on, we might very well have had a much different take, and might not have discovered so many of GZ lies. Perhaps his mention of goons was enough for the SPD or prosecutors who would definitely have known of them and how intractable they are, such that the mere mention of their involvement turns LEO off!

              Well, it didn’t work as intended, instead everyone was sidetracked away from the goons story. Of course, eventually we’d have realized, perhaps belatedly, that GZ would have easily known, very quickly, that TM was not a goon. The body language would be very much different than those wayward lost kids.

              Of course, if GZ wasn’t aware of what the goons looked like and how brazenly they acted, then he would not have needed his gun. But then, he also would not have mentioned them, in the hope that they would provide a distraction.

              Conclusion: GZ knew about the goons and he had either seen them or view the videos of them. He knew early on that TM wasn’t one of them, because, with him in a car, they’d have brazenly taken evasive action by moving through areas where a truck could not follow. If cornered they’d shoot it out.

              GZ knew that goons would be sufficient justification for being armed and even for shooting, so he makes the mention.

              Of course, his approach, or even being in the area with a suspected goon, and not having already drawn his weapon, tell us he knows that the suspect he’s pursuing isn’t armed. He knows this because, even though he can sense the child is afraid of him, the child isn’t taking effective evasive actions. The way a criminal goon would.

              Someone “upstairs” must have been watching this unfold because, can you imagine the firestorm that would have erupted and covered over GZ’s fabricated story, if the Goon’s had become the central story early on?
              Instead the poor quality of the SPD tape ruined what would have been an otherwise very effective distraction.

            • Has anyone matched up the tag numbers with a name and make of car. I was thinking of checking DMV records, but before I pay for it I wanted to know if anyone has done so already.

          • @Lonnie –

            “What you’ll find out about gang is truly terrible, here google “Sanford Florida Gangs Goons” (without the quotes) and have a look see.”

            Just did. It is truly pitiful to see what’s happening with these kids. No life. No prospects.

            Where are those children buying all those guns?! This is just crazy.

            • It’s drug money funding these things. But, as I said, and you can easily see, these kids are totally wild. If GZ knows of them, has seen them, or searched them on the net, then he would very quickly know that TM is clearly not cut from that cloth. The body language he’d see, when he was discovered following, would be quite dramatic and quite a bit fear inducing, knowing what level they could be armed to, and the possibility that there are other goons in the area with him. Because they are brazen. Made so, because even the police can’t control them, and have to go to, what I call “grade B policing”. You clearly don’t tangle with a real goon alone!

              “Grade B Policing” is what I call the situation, much like they had during prohibition, where certain areas were so dangerous, that the police could not reasonably be expected to move against them. This is because of the expected losses any major actions would entail. The police could not, in such situations, afford the expected losses, since that would leave the immediate populace with less police protection. Meaning they’d only be making room for other area gangs to move in, to replace the ones they took out.

              As you can see, if you give it thought, lack of police response isn’t always due to corruption, but is sometimes the only rational response. They hope that by doing regular police work, they can undermine the revenue source of the thugs, and with the shifting equations, eventually abate the threats.
              Better this than to devolve to third world “grade C policing” where the police themselves become part of the criminal enterprise, either with or without the blessings of public officials, elected or otherwise in office.

29. Has anyone mentioned this? In the walkthrough, GZ claims the police ask, Do you still want us to come? Yes. Where do you want us to meet you? And then he says, meet me at the clubhouse you’ll see my silver Honda Ridgeline.

    But on the 911 call that never happens. Operator asks, Do you want us to meet you at the clubhouse?, No, actually could you just have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?

    Here we see first hand a recorded instance of GZ crafting the story to exclude that incriminating detail, that indicated that he was intent on pursing his so-called “suspect”, so that he wouldn’t get away from the ensuing authorities.

    • Did you notice he also lied on the non emergency dispatch by telling the investigators that the dispatcher told him to get out of his vehicle. He said the guy said
      ” well we need an address”, trying to make it seem like he only got out because the dispatcher told him too. Thank GOD it was recorded. He said all of these things that we caught due to him not knowing that the police would play the 911 for him or that it would ever come up again. I am so glad that he is a dumb criminal.

      • Don’t forget, even that “we need an address” would not be an address for Trayvon, but simply and address for where they could meet GZ! Obviously he didn’t need to get out of the vehicle to get that, he could simply have driven back to the clubhouse and waited there. Because that’s all this need of an address was all about, where to meet him!
        Not where to find anyone else!

    • Even though (like jailhouse calls) the NE call number starts with an announcement that the call is recorded, I think GZ actually believed his call was never recorded or else that the cops had not bothered to listen to it. Because he says at least a dozen lies of this sort, lies that can be PROVEN to be lies in a court of law. He talked to investigators like he was trying to talk his way out of a speeding ticket… it’s kinda pathetic.

      Myself and plenty of others noticed the sinister implications of the “have them call me” line when the NE call was made public. The fact that he lied to omit/obscure obfuscate to the level he did was astonishing to skeptics when the statements were finally made public. The list of lies is as long as my arm if I were to type them in this forum. Even before the bond money and passport disaster, his credibility was very very low. The trick is, the prosecution still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not attacked by TM and in mortal fear for his life when he fired his handgun into the unarmed teen’s heart. Even though he’s a liar, it’s still going to be a challenge since he killed the other witness to the altercation and knows all the buzzwords to say – like the verbal threat to his life, and the fear of imminent death, and that he was innocently walking to(wards) his truck, etc. It would be a great self defense/ SYG story if it were true.

      • Given the NW rules, the 14 hour course he had taken, and the fact that he had a weapon with him, he has NO justification for being anywhere except in front of the clubhouse waiting for the Police to arrive! Anything else is vigilantism and that makes these results criminal.

30. How is it really possible for Zimmerman to have identified TM as having run south towards the rear gate, from where he claims he was situated? He mentions the direction of TM before the car bells tinkle, so he is still in the car when he reports this detail. If he was in the car, I don’t think he has the proper angle, or the light visibility to determine that TM ran south; he would have just seen him go into the cut through. No southward movement would have been visible.

    • I think GZ was thinking and responding like an automobile driver when he gave directions. TTL feeds “down” like a drain south to the other entrance. If TM ran west on TTL, he’s still going “down” to the other entrance if you assume he’s going to stick to the roadway which he had thus far more or less.

      But TM may have run from the ford truck/ sidewalk start to towards the T, we can’t know for certain. But I don’t think he went as far as the T before he cut south. I strongly think TM cut the corner of the unit at 1211 TTL – there is a dirt pathway worn where others cut this corner a lot, but it only shows up in certain angles of photos. Certainly the location of the body suggests he stuck to the back of the building and stayed off the sidewalk, where GZ would have looked as he moved west but didn;t see him the first time. Trayvon likely did not go all the way to the T before he turned south. TM would have already had walked thru wet grass and not cared about sticking to a sidewalk like GZ seems to have done. Facing west, talking on the phone and not having a working flashlight made GZ miss TM, even if TM was just standing in the grass behind John;s window – he would have been “behind” GZ’s line of sight already, and oddly enough the farther NORTH TM was at that time the more likely he would be a dark object against a dark background – the sunroom glass of 1211 TTL as opposes to a dark object against beige stucco.

      I also think GZ muttering “effing goons/punks/whatever ” is right about the moment he lost sight of TM.

      Here is the sequence:
      2:11 (7:11:44 EST)
      GZ : Shit he’s running.
      Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
      2:16 (7:11:49EST)

      BEEPING – ZIMMERMAN EXITS VEHICLE AND STARTS TO WALK OR JOGS AFTER TRAYVON

      Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
      2:22
      Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he’s heading towards?
      WIND NOISE STARTS – GZ MOVES FASTER
      Zimmerman: The back entrance…f*cking [unintelligible] (c**n, punk, goon?)
      WIND NOISE
      Dispatcher: Are you following him?
      Zimmerman: Yeah
      Dispatcher: Ok, we don’t need you to do that.
      2:31
      Zimmerman: Ok
      Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
      Zimmerman: George…He ran.
      2:41 ( 7:12:15 EST) GZ HAS LOST SIGHT – NOTE PAST TENSE – “HE RAN”
      Dispatcher: Alright George what’s your last name?
      2:46 WIND NOISE STOPS – HE RAN OR JOGGED FOR 25 SECONDS
      GZ MOVES AT A DIFFERENT PACE NOW

      Notice TM only ran a short sprint, but likely did so as fast as his feet could carry him, and he probably waited until the last second to do so, hoping the car behind him wouldn’t stop but instead continue around the corner on it’s own steam. Note also that TM probably didn’t have time or the inclination to look back and see GZ exit his car.

      This is also why GZ insists he wasn’t “following” TM when he is played the tape. He wasn’t following with the teen in his eyesight. He was just following the path he saw the teen run. Minor distinction but GZ tries to make as much of it as he can, like a drowning man will grasp at a floating straw.

      Why do I feel so sure about all this? There are clear benchmarks for what TM is doing while GZ describes his movements.

      Dispatcher: That’s the clubhouse, do you know what the—he’s near the
      clubhouse right now?
      Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.

      GZ has to be SOMEWHERE when he says this and so does TM. many things are possible, but the two places GZ seems to claim are NOT possible. So we must find a middle spot. Fortunately GZ did it for us when he marked the map. He just crossed it out quickly realizing he needed to back off that part of the story given what came next. I can’t over-emphasise this point because it shows how, where and why GZ lied and is caught dead-to-rights in his own lies. Yes, he is likely lying a dozen other places but this one is where his own words can and were played back to him and he can’t explain himself and a jury will see the nature and impact of his lies. In my mind it would be the cornerstone of a prosecutor’s case since the star witness is also the defendant. How can the defense refute their own guy?

      It’s important to know that GZ marked a map showing IMO his REAL position as TM left the clubhouse area but that GZ quickly crossed out this mark and that’s where his “TM doubled back and circled my car/ hand in waistband” false narrative began, the one he can’t explain later when played the recorded call. When he finally is confronted with the call, he repeatedly insists he is “by the clubhouse” when this happened even though he’s told it otherwise previously, including during the video/ walk thru “re-creation” earlier the SAME day. This middle position is a key to knowing TM’s walking speed and where he was when he started to run, and how GZ seems to have pushed his false narrative to leave out following him down TTL in his car, the REASON TM ran in the first place. This middle position scenario RESOLVES inconsistencies and contradictions whereas any other possible version creates contradictions and inconsistencies, and they create the SAME contradictions and inconsistencies that GZ has with investigators.

      here are the supporting maps and testimony for all this:

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630287389764/with/7568665726/

      • @willisnewton –

        Interesting that you mention the worn-out grassy pathway. I was thinking about that, too.

        What seems to be getting overlooked by O’Mara’s team is that the worn out grassy path running parallel to the sidewalk at the top of the Tee right outside Witness 11’s house puts ZIMMERMAN closer to a “hidden” location than Trayvon Martin. The bushes weren’t tall enough for
        Trayvon Martin to hide from someone on the top of the doggie path Tee.

        They were positioned, however, near the corner of a house and alongside a known and obvious path, ideal for sneaking up on anyone already heading south. No way George could have walked past that point and not seen Trayvon Martin hiding there. The hider was Zimmerman as he snuck up on Trayvon Martin if it all started there. I don’t even believe that’s where it started.

    • I always had difficulty with this. If he DID do a u-turn and is facing west, he can’t see behind him in the dark to see Trayvon make the south-bound turn at the T. So he can’t say “toward the back entrance”. But if Trayvon runs down TTL then he can say this with confidence, as the back entrance is where TTL leads to.

      It would be faster for him to jump out and run after him, than do a 3-point turn to follow by car. Also he knows there are 3 cut-throughs (2 towards the doggie path, one towards the lake) that TM could duck into where he can’t follow by car. So on foot is more tiring but likely to get better results.

      If he was parked facing east, as I first thought and as he claims in the walkthrough, then drifting by car around the corner would make the more sense, if Trayvon runs down TTL. If he runs on the path, then he’d be visible heading southward, and following on foot the only option.

      Tchoupi’s analysis indicates a car doing a u-turn to face west. GZ’s mapping of his vehicle positions is a confused mess. He told Taaffe he was faced west.

      • Keep in mind, he is primed to think the black males robbing and thugging enter either through the cut-through OR the back entrance. This apparently has been observed previously so he is probably assuming that Trayvon moving in that general direction has to be him moving to the back entrance to evade “capture.”

    • He had his headlights on…that may have provided some light to see possibly.

31. Page 33/284.
    Austin told De la Rionda that the person he saw on the ground was on its side turning it’s back to him. So, it may have been some rotation.

    Since, he didn’t notice John (W6) nor W19 outside, since he was not noticed by them either, and since John went to is porch immediately after hearing the scuffle, it is safe to say that Austin came after John & W19 went back inside.

    So Austin would may have seen a rotation from TM on top to both on their side just seconds before the gunshot.

    • Here’s my idea of where Austin was:

      

      Although like the note says, it needs slight revision I think. Camera is in the right position but Austin is a little closer to camera I think, and so slightly farther uphill/ towards the building in front of him in the photo.

      He’s 40-45 feet away IMO, the same distance as the body from the T, or home plate to the front of the pitcher’s mound. And it’s very dark, but kids have better night vision than mature adults.

      • Willi,

        I think It must be an error concerning Austin’s location when he saw the person on the ground.
        I don’t doubt your triangulation based on the picture. I doubt the picture.
        If it’s right, Austin would have walked with his dog up the walkway pass Teresa (2821 RVC), Selma & Mary (2831 RVC) & the 2 bahodoor sisters (2841) without anyone noticing while everybody’s looking what’s going on.

        • yeah, go figure. All I know is that’s what’s in the photo. But keep in mind everyone seems to have been looking at where the noise was coming from mostly. Austin may have been ahead of schedule from their looks, and it’s also important to consider that unless you are all the way up at your window, the POV is a narrow range that someone would cross more quickly, depending on how far back in the house a viewer was. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable, that’s why I care about where GZ himself says he was in comparison to the recorded call, and where the evidence on the ground was. I tend to shy away from what witnesses saw as a reliable means for judging much of anything.

          Also eye witnesses can be cross-examined in trial but if the prosecution bases much of its case on GZ’s own words, what can the defense do, cross examine their own client to impeach himself? (don’t laugh, and look for ADHD and PTSD and twinkies too to be introduced to “Explain” GZ’s false statements as some sort of consequence he is not responsible for.)

          Getting back to Austin, whatever he saw won’t get the prosecution far at trial IMO. And I don’t put much stock in trying to place the timing of what he saw by the idea that he didn’t see “John” or W19, but it’s worth speculating about.

          I’m curious (but we’ll never know absent a confession) if GZ moved TM’s arms from an “I surrender” position to under his body to cover the obvious – that the teen was no longer struggling when he was shot. GZ’s biased statements are proof of little but might suggest that he feared a witness saw him after the shot manipulating the body and had to invent something to cover the actions he DID do. I just don’t think we will know, absent a confession. It’s all speculation, especially when it comes time for a trial.

          (But maybe Osterman has already flipped on GZ to avoid being charged as an accessory. Anyone consider that one?)

          • Yes, here’s a very strange guy, with his credentials I’d expect that he carries gps enabled device(s). What was he doing in the area, so far from his own home? To do banking? Are there no banks (ATM’s) where he lives? Did he withdraw cash? Or merely check his balances while passing time watching TM across the road?

            My guess is it will be left to the FBI to investigate him. And it does seem like, after leaving the bank, he went into RATL before the shot was fired. But that’s just an impression I got, no evidence yet to back it. A guy like that would probably have disabled his gps devices that night, that would be very telling. Also, I don’t think he’d forget about when the gates close, so he’d know to drive in before then. After all, it wouldn’t do to come in later and have some cop at the gate remember his badge/id to get waved through.

            Obviously he does appear with SZ in retrieving the truck. That would also be telling, since he gets a call from SZ, who doesn’t know he’s already inside the gate? Shouldn’t she be getting a call from him first? Letting her know that he’s on his way over? Otherwise, what reason does he have to believe that GZ won’t be home, if he makes no contact? Or, are we missing his trip to GZ’s house? Oh well, keep looking, “the devil is in the details as they say”.

    • I wish they’d asked him where his dog was retrieved. Got a feeling the dog ran into a unpaved grassy cut-through. That could be why nobody saw Austin.

32. http://www.theonion.com/articles/george-zimmerman-not-going-to-let-one-bad-experien,28722/

    Anybody see this before, Zimmerman calls the killing of Martin a crummy day..unbelievable. He talks about patrolling the neighborhood again, and that they need him. This man is gonna kill again, he is nuts!! Please read!!!

    • Satire

    • He is looney tunes if he did say that to reporters.

    • IGNORE the ONION. It is meant to be satire, they make it up wholesale.

33. Just heard police audio in reference to running GZ tag and license from Orlando Sentinel. I don’t know if this was discussed, but I do remember someone posting that Shellie must of removed the car before anyone knew where it was parked.

    Does this mean that an officer noted the exact location of where his car was parked before it was removed?

    Listen forward from 1:58

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

    first audio length 2:53

    • The officer ask to run the tags to see if they belong to any of the residents and the dispatcher replies, Zimmerman.

      • I haven’t reviewed it, yet. If that’s the case, then why did they not secure it as part of the crime scene? The PD reported it that they could not secure his vehicle as part of the crime scene because his wife had drove it home.

        I’ll listen to that later. Thanks, Loree.

        • You’re welcome.
          @ ADMIN I am not getting follow up posts sent to my email, i always follow this blog and didn’t get a follow confirmation, I know you changed settings , please help

          • I will check. Thank you. Is this happening to anyone else now too?

      • http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

        at 1.55 they give Zimmerman’s licence details, something about “conditions (?) corrective lenses and expires 2016 ..(unintelligible).. your subject”.

        at 2.30 — “tag 816KLP tell me if it’s registered anywhere ‘tween the lakes”…. reply just one word “Zimmerman”.

        OK so is that George or Shellie?

        Do any of you guys know how to check registrations and confirm this, from that tag number?

        Trouble is they were just looking for cars that didn’t belong there, didn’t think knowing where GZ’s was would be relevant.

      • “The officer ask to run the tags to see if they belong to any of the residents and the dispatcher replies, Zimmerman.”

        Page?

        • It’s in the police dispatch audio on Orlando Sentinel’s site. I just got to listen and verify. One plate number is rattled off, and it’s mentioned as a white Honda then another plate number rattled off and is asked if it belongs to a resident at Twin Lakes the only response is “Zimmerman.”

          • Oh, yeah, that was the other point I wanted to make. Main reason I finally decided to post. I heard them respond to one of the tags as “— Zimmerman.” I see you beat me to the punch. Sounds like car was either registered to G or Shellie then, right? But police “thought” he was walking & never checked that car when it didn’t belong to the dead black guy … waaaaaa????

          • I missed that about a Honda.

            That sounds like there may have been a Honda PLUS a different one registered to “Zimmerman”.

            I wish I knew how to slow downs tapes just a tiny bit, to be able to get this fast muttered cross-talk stuff.

            tag 816KLP is the one that brought the reply “Zimmerman”. IF someone can grab the tag for the Honda, too, maybe run them through some site that says who owns what? I don’t know what the appropriate authority would be called in FL.

            • I mean, interesting if there was a moment in time when both GZs and Shellie’s vehicles were there. Would give us a line on when she got there.

            • Well, there’s that huge ass white truck that always seems to be parked there, so I’m thinking that’s Jeremy’s or John’s…

              I can go back in a bit to see if I can grab that first plate, though that one seemed a bit more hard to hear.

            • He says it fast, but I got ATTS68 (Alpha Tango Tango Sierra 6 8). The could be a C, but I think it’s more likely an S.

            • C is Charlie so if he said Sierra it’s an S

              so we have
              816KLP (brand not said)
              ATTS68 (Honda???)
              Please someone who knows where, check out the owners of these.

            • The big ass truck that is always there is a white Ford. It is so much always there, it shows up on several different Google Earth and satellite maps. It seems to belong to Jeremy who lives in that corner house.

              I don’t know how he gets away with it. I read on some real estate site that the HOA doesn’t allow parking on the street. It is also often parked on the wrong side of the street.

              It’s main role in this saga was to confuse us for weeks, and to provide shelter for GZ’s father and bff MO while they were observing the walkthrough.

            • It’s a Ford? Hm, so who is the Honda? Hmmm.

              Also, if Jeremy’s wife is involved in HOA, that’s how he gets away with it.

              Rules don’t seem to apply to the ones who create/enforce them. I have especially noticed this in HOA areas.

        • http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/71027545/News/Audio-Sanford-Police-dispatch-following-Trayvon-shooting#gl-1

          It’s after the 1:58 mark, as Loree mentions.

          • Thank you!

    • Just saw a photo of police checking cars on the night. Didn’t record where because it wasn’t relevant – – he was checking that white Ford that is permanently parked on the corner.

      I don’t think they’d record the locations. Just radio in the number, get an immediate response about the owner, then move on to the next vehicle. Probably they’d only record any that came out suspicious, ie not belonging to a resident.

      • I don’t see why George’s vehicle location wouldn’t be noted, car impounded & searched. It’s part of a crime scene for god’s sake. The police say they “thought” he was on foot, despite the Honda key, the NEN call & his statements. One key example of how shoddy their work really was. Another is all the people at the scene — were they noted on the crime scene contamination list (have to double check). It seems quite unusual.

        Oh, one other thing that’s been bugging me. Soooooo much wrong w/ W13 –as if the pic of the bloody head & body aren’t weird enough — the flashlight? WHY would you take a picture of a flashlight after a shooting. Suggests to me that there may be some truth to the thought he planted it there to put his location closer to the T, then either told W13 to take pic or took pic & later passed to W13 (as he provided to police from his computer). That’s just BIZARRE. I mean, you can possibly come up with a rubbernecking-type scenario for the other 2 pics, but a flashlight? At a shooting scene?

        • Welcome and thank you for reading/commenting! The Sanford PD has a ton of explaining to do regarding Zimmerman’s vehicle not being impounded. A ton.

        • “See look there’s where he attacked me, up there” take a pic in case someone destroys that evidence???? never mind it might be fake evidence in the first place?

          Actually, the guy who took the photos did not go out through his patio door. I think it was blocked because they were assembling furniture on the floor in there.

          He went out through his GARAGE at the front and ran around the corner, and came across GZ in his “pacing up and down with hands on head” period, probably about half way from the T to the shooting. This is verified by another witness. So the bloodied head and the keychain flashlight were the only 2 bits of “evidence” close by for that guy to photograph.

          Then he took one of the body, and then he had to stop because the police arrived.

        • Incredibly bizarre! I am completely confused as to the pictures taken. In one statement its a witness taking pictures with his iphone, then in police reports an Officer Wagner (I believe) states he takes pictures with his iphone?!? It’s like sifting through manure.

      • Since Corey’s office has the radio transmissions from the officer who called in that plate(s), it shouldn’t be to hard to question him and get an answer as to where the truck was parked as he was calling in that plate. Officers usually have good memories, and or trained to do so. Since this became a high profile case about 2 weeks after 2/26/12. The first murder of the year, I am willing to bet that officer remembers where that truck was.

        • Maybe, like NLME has been asking about, the officers dash cam caught the location while he was calling it in.

        • For sure, because all he has to remember is where he was standing and from which direction he was taking plate numbers in which order etc., so there’s quite a bit to trigger the memory.

      • Just a note aussie in the last year here in Waikiki we have had the google street view car in various locations (can’t miss it with the apparatus on it’s roof) My friend was curious so asked the driver about google street view and she was told that google does not up date it’s street view except for every 6 months. However I have googled my street for a 12 month period and it still shows the same character walking by my building. I wouldn’t put too much into the truck always there in google maps try bing it may not show that same truck.

        • @sdunn5, I don’t know how often google map updates, but I do know the aerial view is different than the street view. The street view of my house is the same one from 4 years ago. The aerial one is different. If you think about, it’s easy for them to refresh the one from above. They’re not going to send those trucks down every street every 6 months, although they might do it for major streets.

    • Missed this — thank you.

34. I follow this case very closely, reviewing & analyzing all evidence, but I don’t post here because I can’t keep up with the volume of comments & I always feel like I should read every last one, lest I be repetitive. I’ve decided to go ahead and jump in w/ a few things all this new evidence despite that I’ve only skimmed some of comments above.

    First, now that we’ve heard Osterman’s version of what GZ told him, we now know that GZ was swatting at STARS, not flies, in his reenactment. 🙂 It all makes sense now!

    Also, GZ talked to two people almost immediately after leaving the police station: Osterman & the co-worker 8:30am on 2/27. In both those stories, he said he got out of the car to continue to track Martin. This was while still fresh in his head & prior to reenactment. So, he was saving the address story for police. Also, y’all may mention above, but in the story he tells the co-worker, he additionally says Trayvon was “kicking the shit out of (him)” (while pinning & pounding, pounding, pounding (a part he likes to emphasize)), so let’s fit that in to the pinning Tray’s hand, or swatting Tray’s hand, I mean elbow on the ground, shot. KICKING him!

    Of course, I’ve paid close attention to the psychopath warning signs, which I believe you talk about in depth above. The thing w/ the mom & electricity, was just like, WOW! I’m the g.f., I’m thinking -WRONG FAMILY! So, yes, I think we’re getting a good hint at where his explosive anger stems from. I have always thought him a sociopath w/narcissistic personality disorder. (‘cuz I dealt w/ one, so familiar w/ what narcissistic is about). Based on his demeanor after the shooting, he either has been waiting/wishing/planning for the moment and/or he’s killed before. Not only total lack of empathy, but lack of any elevation of body vitals directly after … it’s way too easy for him.

    I’ll leave it there for now & see if I can catch up on comments a bit.

    • Hi momisbuf

      the important posts you missed are the ones where we worked out, from GZ’s statements, that TM had 8 arms (which the lazy autopsy people failed to find most of). Possible he had some spare kicking legs, too. Don’t forget the first punch was strong enough to propel him 50ft down the path. This is why GZ was so afraid of him. 😉

      Seriously, the turning off mom’s electricity I don’t know the source of. Being beaten as a kid seems to be only from friend Osterman, who did not know him then, so that is just repeating something GZ told him. And we know what he’s like with stories. Though it would fit with the personality profile.

      ================

      About commenting……. just yesterday NLME changed the settings. First-time users still have to wait for him to moderate. Existing users’ posts go live right away. This makes it much easier to keep related topics together in time order, as we can reply to each other in a proper conversational flow.

      Don’t add to comment streams more than a day or so old, as nobody will read back that far to see it. It’s better to make a new comment, and people can refer you back or give new replies on that.

      IF you want to respond to something a bit older, make a new comment. Quote a bit of the one you’re answering, mention the author’s name, plus put (comment X) which is the number beside each main comment in the margin.

      • Being beaten as a kid is also supported by the myspace page where he says about how he and his friends are all afraid of his mom.

      • Hey Aussie– Definitely! Both Trayvon and GZ must have supernatural powers & Tray, yeah, a FEW extra appendages, as well. GZ had his x-ray vision to see behind houses & the ability to squeeze out from under Martin (beaten and battered to w/in an inch of his life) just in time to keep so much as a drop of blood from splattering on him. 🙂

        I thought the same about Osterman’s retelling of the mom abuse. There’s always the prospect that it’s part of GZ’s self-serving narrative to explain away certain failures in life, as Osterman has no personal knowledge. However, I always suspected there was some serious abuse in his past because that definitely fits with the sociopath. With Personality Disorders, the early abuse is of the nature of a severe & traumatic loss of control as a child, which creates the need always be in control & solidifies into a particularly intractable part of the person’s personality.

        We heard from one neighbor that the Zim kids grew up under strict military discipline & played only amongst themselves, not with other children in the neighborhood. So I always suspected dad as military disciplinarian, and/or the Catholic Church, as altar boys were exceptionally vulnerable to priests. Between Osterman’s testimony, the MySpace Page comment Toneii points out (he & his friends scared of his momma), and the comments of the ex (painting mom as a particularly ugly/negative person & saying mom & grandma exercised quite a bit of control over him), I’m buying that mom, if not mom AND dad, were abusive in some way.

        Really good to hear NLME made that change to the commenting. It’ll make it easier to participate, easier to keep the flow, and it’ll probably save him loads of grief, as well! 🙂

    • C’mon. You know ‘kicking the shit out of’ is a figure of speech, and not necessarily a literal reference to kicking with leg and foot. GZ’s flinging enough genuine BS, there’s no need to stretch to dubious inferences from his word choices.

35. About not impounding the car

    When they went checking the tags of cars parked nearby, they were looking for a strange car that might belong to/help identify the unknown victim. The work was done by patrol cops who were just told to go check tags, and didn’t know why, except to get any that didn’t live there.

    By the time the actual investigators maybe thought to impound GZ’s truck it wasn’t there. In the normal scheme of things, it wasn’t relevant to the case at all. There was no allegatiion of shots fired from it, or a hit-and-run, etc etc.

    The only relevance of it is the LOCATION, and that only became important when the SYG started to be disputed, days later, because of the vehicle’s role in the pre-attack stalking.

    If it were my investigation, I’d probably not bother impounding it either. But I’d like to be able to put on a report somewhere, where it was.

    • i think you might be right, by the time they were putting the pieces of the puzzle together the car was gone….

    • Well, at very minimum, the location should have been noted. I hope you are correct that, indeed, the location is traceable or the officer remembers & can check it against GZ’s placement of it. At the time, they would not have know the car to be of specific evidentiary value, but in my limited understanding/take-away from amhomicide investigation procedures guide, it seems like they would impound as an exercise in total thoroughness. At minimum, they should have searched the damn thing–at least for evidence of drugs/drinking. They search a car for driving w/out a seatbelt, for god’s sake. A guy just involved in a homicide? I say … YEAH! If Trayvon was shooter, car would have been, minimally searched, probably impounded. OK, jmho & all.

    • his car should have stood out a little because if he parked it where he said he did it was facing the wrong way. You drive on the right in the US but he parked his car on the left.

      • Assuming he actually parked it facing the way he said he did, in the place he said he parked it.

        unitron

        • exactly, it would stand out like dogs balls.

      • Agreed. You’d also think the officers would state the vehicle was facing in the wrong direction when reading its tags?

        • Well, I guess Zimmerman was right about the one thing…the SPD are horrible. We see that as sad…he saw it as an opportunity to commit murder and it will all just blow over.

36. it is a bit strange that Osterman didn’t back zimmermans “i was looking for an address” excuse for getting out the car. It is obvious during Zims non emergency call that he was following, or looking for Trayvon but since then his story to the police has always been that he was looking for an address. Now he spent approx 6 weeks with Osterman, i am sure they discussed what happened over and over and not just once, going over details. So why did his bff give him up on looking for Trayvon rather than a street sign. I’m sure that Zim would be lying to everyone about the actual fight and how Martin ended up being shot, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he had in fact told bff what really happened in the lead up to the fight. Maybe this was part of the truth that just slipped out, because i’m sure they got their story straight before Osterman spoke with the feds. It just seems a bit wierd that one of Zimmermans major tales wasn’t backed up by his buddy, either the truth slipped out or perhaps Zimmermans story to his friend was slightly different because he knew he could tell him the true scenario without getting in trouble, not expecting that he would ever have to speak to the authorities. hmmmmm

    • By the time he was interviewed he’d have known the “street sign” story had not gone over too well.

      For sure they’d have gone over it many times. He might be responsible for some of the changes between the SIngleton interview and the Serino ones, which Serino said “sounded scripted”.

      If it was indeed MO who tipped GZ off about the suspicious guy, he’d have known he was looking for and following him, wouldn’t need to be told that part of it. The actual shooting? strange the way he describes it “with elbow on the ground”. Why that would be relevant, and or how that would be possible? also the wording “rotated” the gun, what does that mean?

      GZ seems to have several buddies who are not doing him any favours, look at the strange stuff Taaffe said. This guy at least has stood by him, given him shelter, looked after him without pushing himself into the limelight. And if he did provide the tip-off, and it was just an innocent casual remark, he may feel partly responsible for the whole mess that resulted. I haven’t really worked him out yet.

      • I don’t know what to make of Osterman saying this. No doubt in my mind GZ told Osterman the truth & MO was helping to script the story. Why would he then go off-script when the feds finally roll around to him? I can’t begin to imagine, except a possible slip. Even if the address story isn’t going over well, it *is* the story…

        It’ll be veeerry interesting when we get confirmation as to whether that is, indeed, Osterman at the bank. Really? Why would dude be helping his buddy on his little fantasy patrol? Anyway, I guess we’ll find out more on that front later.

37. W13 took a picture of the flashlight at the T? I missed this. That is VERY suspicious.

    And we know GZ wandered up towards the T right after the shooting. He was thinking clear enough to do all this planning right after?

    If this “plant” is true, it supports the idea that GZ has been doing this kind of crap all his life. Most humans would be too distraught to think.

    • W13 says he took three pictures; one was the back of GZ’s head, one was of TM, and the other was of the flashlight on the ground.

      The keychain with flashlight on very well could be a plant, but I’m not sure if there is enough evidence to suggest that it was in fact a plant, and I really question whether he is smart/quick thinking enough to do that.

      • I don’t know if it is here or another blog but someone suggested that the keys could have feel out as he rounded the corner and went for his gun. I do not think there was a confrontation at the point where the keys and the flashlight are. You would have to discount all of the other physical evidence 50 feet away, IMO. And for some reason, Zimmerman wants to keep the fight there at the T. How could everything have happened where he claims, bet the bag and phone be 30 feet away. The clown dropped his keys is what I suspect.

        • Regarding this thread, I actually have put little credence in the plant theory, just because of what Milo suggests — how would he think that fast & assume this would help his story? However, I start to think it more likely if that, indeed, was the flashlight W13 took a pic of. That would be such a bizarre thing to take a picture of, even though it was along W13’s path of travel. It would suggest to me that someone thought it would bolster GZ’s side of things. Under that set of circumstances, the flashlight placement begins to seem more suspect. Otherwise, I agree it could have just fallen from his pocket or something.

          I was under the distinct impression the flashlight photographed was the one at the T, but I can’t remember why. Was there something that led me to believe that? Or did I just assume? I’ll see if I can find it again. If it were the other flashlight, that is still weird, but slightly less so because of it’s proximity to the body, which he also photographs. (Yuck!)

          (P.S. — Hi Princess!! 🙂 **WAVES** LOL)

        • Zimmerman initially left the body and returned to the T, right after the shooting. Maybe he had already felt the need to reinforce a story after just hunting TM down and killing him, then finding no weapon on Trayvon, that his imagination had previously created for him. So he goes up to the T, and drops the keys to make it look like he was attacked there. As if to say, “I was just walking through here, minding my own business, and he attacked me.”

        • Was Zimmerman apprehended near the T? Or, was he well south of it closer to Trayvon’s body?

          • IIRC, near the T.

        • In the reenactment, Zimmerman walked directly the to the spot marked by the keys.

      • Do we know for certain if the iPhone picture was the keychain flashlight or could it have been the black tactical flashlight close to the body? I’m waiting to see the picture … But wonder if anyone knows the answer given by W13 – TIA – I’m afk just now

        • dump p71

          ” One photo was of a flashlight lying in the grass next to Martin…”

          • OK, well then, scratch all that stuff about the flashlight at the T! Thanks for finding that, Aussie! It’s still weird & random, but quite a bit less suspicious than if it had been the other flashlight.

        • The same witness, in I think his first statement to the police, did say he saw the keychain light near the T and the light was on. Let’s remember he entered the scene from the direction of the T himself, having left his house through the garage and gone around.

        • It was the small flashlight with the honda key attached, if I remember correctly. @11:35 in W13’s taped statement on 3/20/12, talks about seeing both flashlights.

          http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case

      • Much more likely he took a picture of the larger flashlight on the ground near the body, a picture of which he also took.

        If the cops hadn’t chased him off perhaps he’d have gotten around to taking pictures of the rest of the evidence, including the keychain flashlight, as well.

        unitron

        • Unitron,

          Even if Manalo didn’t take any picture of the chained flashlight,
          he clearly refers to it in one of the interviews (can’t recall which one) by stating that it caught his attention as it was on illuminating the grass I guess.

          • Do you know iPhone camera guy was standing when he took those pictures?

            If he’s close to the body, then getting a shot of the larger flashlight is more likely–he didn’t have a lot of time before Smith got there and most likely told him to back off.

            He probably felt like the body and Zimmerman’s bloody head were the most important shots to get, and after that he’d branch out to other stuff, probably starting with what was closest. Also, he might have thought Martin was using that larger flashlight to beat on George’s head, which would increase its importance as a photo subject.

            unitron

          • He describes a picture of the larger flashlight and the body all in one photo. He took 3 photos.

            – Head
            – Body and larger flashlight
            – Other flashlight

            • Wonder why he didn’t get a shot of Martin’s cell phone while he was near the body.

              Wish he’d gotten the tan 7-11 bag. I’d like to know when and how the beverage can came out of it.

              unitron

38. If anyone is curious to decipher some chicken scratch, GZ marked a map showing his positions when he was questioned by Singleton the night of the killing. It’s available here in a version I used photoshop on to enhance the contrast so it’s as readable as it is ever going to be until we see the actual document (which I wish the media would request to examine and photograph in color -what’s the sunshine law regarding seeing the actual documents vs a facsimile?)

    

    Go to the ACTIONS button to download the full size version.

    Then use this version to see where I think the marks were made and what they might suggest.

    

    I could really use a second set of eyes to make sense of this map, but it seems to me to be quite significant since it suggests strongly the way GZ lies and why he lies and what he’s covering up, and it’s the strongest set of contradictions that can be used to impeach his character at trial – it’s all about how and why he moved from near the clubhouse to near the cut thru – and may also have Mark Osterman’s involvement suggested within it as well, it’s impossible to say just yet. But there are clues there to consider.

    The whole map/movement affair scenario is outlined here:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630287389764/with/7568665726/

    (I’ve been speaking about this scenario at TalkLeft for some time now, and no one there can refute the basic sense it makes no matter how hard they would like to.)

    • Like your work Willi. Thanks.
      I’ve added a link from my photo album.

    • I’ve also seen some examiners use 3fps for an adult walking. I don’t see many people walking very fast while talking on a phone. It was raining, but then that’s why there’s “sheltering” so I guess we can assume that TM began moving when the rain was light enough to tolerate. I think 4.25 fps would be closer to the over all average. Where short spurts of speed and/or slow downs wouldn’t cause much deviation over the course.

      It also occurred to me, if the phone TM was using, was susceptible to water damage, might he not have emptied the 711 bag, to use as protection for the phone? Just sort of tuck it in the waistband and let it hang over the phone.
      Just a thought.

      • I’m around the same height as TM, and I walk at 5fps when I don’t think about going fast or slow.. The interesting thing about GZ’s middle position mark at the first corner is that if you plug in whatever speed you like within reason, you probably need to assume TM walks AWAY from the vehicle at least as fast or faster than he walked TOWARDS it. If he’s walking very fast, then he’s out of sight of GZ’s “final parking spot” when GZ says “Sh*t, he’s running” so that seems to put the lie to that story. If he’s walking at any pace, he’s STILL out of sight if GZ was there the whole time, since he tells dispatch TM was “near the clubhouse?/yeah” when asked to give TM’s position.

        TM seems to walk towards the car for 34 seconds or so, and away for 30, more or less. It’s possible he had a few seconds head start, if he was moving already whenGZ says” NOW he’s coming towards me.” But in a general sense GZ should be somewhere APRT way to the cut thru, not AT the cut thru if GZ can still see TM when he runs. It’s just common sense. One has to consider the “long tail” as well as the lead up.

        As for the idea that TM doubled back and circled the car, it’s just ludicrous to consider as the truth given GZ’s repeated insistence that he is “by the clubhouse ” when he is played the recording, plus the added statement that GZ gave in the walk thru video where he claims he was speaking to dispatch when he moved his car from the parking lot. He’s caught up in his own lies like a schoolboy, and this middle position (which he himself marked on a map) RESOLVES inconsisitencies and contradictions and also explains why GZ never volunteered anythign about TM running – he only speaks of it when prompted. In fact, were the call not recorded, it seems to me that GZ would have told his tale without ever mentioning TM running, and SPD would be none the wiser.

39. Further strange thngs in buddy MO’s statement (p 77)

    1) witnesses going back inside. The only one who said they were out before the shooting was John. GZ told MO three persons.
    2) in the walkthrough he placed all 3 coming out and not helping him AFTER THE SHOOTING when he was busy restraining a dead body and still calling for help.
    3) he claimed EYE CONTACT with these disappearing witnesses. In lighting conditions that for other people was not bright enough to pick skin or clothing colour, he could see and look into people’s EYES from 10 – 20 feet????
    4) managing to draw the gun, ROTATE it whatever that means, and shooting with his elbow on the ground. Hard to imagine how this would line up with the known trajectory into the victim. …

    • Hi, new to the forum but have read much (tho not all) of the comments above and other sites, and this is my first time joining in any of these conversations. I do find it all “so interesting”. I believe the “rotating the gun” refers to the gun being inside his waistband on the right hip. Since GZ is lefthanded, he would have to have it holstered with the but of the gun facing forward for a crossdraw (that is, he prefers reaching with his left hand across his body to pull out the gun from the right hip, hence the butt of the gun would have to face forward.). I’m not gun expert, but that’s what others say is the preference for some people. Seeing that MO is the gun expert, he would pick up on this detail. Regarding the rest of his statement (MO’s that is), despite those inconsistencies you mentioned, at first impression when I was reading it, i thought that it sounded so eerily close to GZ’s version, as did his father’s account of it. Being that those two were at the reenactment and closely involved from the beginning, that is why GZ’s account sounded scripted. One would actually expect a lot more inconsistencies from just hearing his story once (for example, the co-worker who thought he was “mugged”) and then having to recall it weeks or months later.
      Regarding MO being the last person on the bank video, I’m not convinced of that. Isn’t that person wearing glasses? (I could be wrong, it’s such a grainly video). MO has only been seen with sunglasses, not eyeglasses.Also, despite the shaved head and weight, they don’t seem to have the same facial structure. That’s just a first impression…..

      • Oh, I didn’t finish the “rotating” explanation….so GZ would have to “rotate” the gun forward when he pulled it out of the holster with his right hand in order to shoot. By saying that his elbow was on the ground, he is saying that GZ was definitely on the ground still when the shot when off. As far as how GZ might have gotten to the holster in the first place when being straddled and “pummelled” is another story. Of course, that question has been asked and discussed ad nauseum, I’m sure. If the answer to that question is that TM had to have been “letting up” for that to happen, in which case, self-defense couldn’t apply, could it?

        • Well… Try this: Put an eyeglass case inside your waistband and have someone straddle you as you lay on your back, and try to draw the glasses out of the case. Then, try it again, but this time have the person on top try to prevent it.

          You will quickly become convinced that what GZ claims happened is a bald faced lie!

        • I admit that I was unable to visualize the whole left/right handed holster, cross draw scenario…until I was watching S4:E2 of Breaking Bad on Netflix. I knew it was a matter of time before something about GZs story would be revealed in a TV program, considering all the cheezy one-liners he was quoting Trayvon as saying.

          In this episode, Walt is purchasing an illegal hand gun from a seller inside a seedy hotel room. Walt is right handed, the seller is advising him of how to holster the gun, and other ‘gun etiquette’. He then gives Walt a holster with a clip for wearing inside the waistband. However, when he places it on his right side, he says that it feels odd and decides to place the holster on his left, but the seller advises that he’d then be forced to ‘cross draw’ and that’s normally used for one in a sitting postion such as a store clerk, or card game dealer. He then advised Walt to practice his draw technique.

          FINALLY, my ‘AH-HA’ moment…I now see how it would be virtually impossible for GZ to have reached around Trayvon if he was sitting high up on his stomach and pinched/pinned Trayvons arm to prevent him from reaching for the gun as GZ claims.

    • the mind boggles doesn’t it…if you are having the shit kicked out of you, head smashed into the ground, nose and mouth covered, blood in your eyes etc etc, how would you even notice when someone came outside. Even if you heard them yell out or heard the door, if you are being beaten and suffocated that badly how do you get a chance to look them in the eye while you are fighting off a deadly attack. FULL.OF.SHIT.

      • He’s so clear that he’s making eye contact with people in the distance, but has so much blood in his eyes as to not be able to see in which direction (back, side, or ??) 155 lbs of weight falls off his body. Yep. I buy that …

        • *his* body, that is.

          • Updated.

            I’ve also deleted the other comment (assuming I deleted the right one). 🙂

40. Considering Zimmerman flat out stated Sonner and Uhrig weren’t his legal counsel, just advisors, can they be called by the prosecution?

    • Hmmmm….??????? Intriguing question.

    • good call. And what about Hannity as well, or maybe the authorities aren’t interested in him because they know he’s full of shit.

      • Lol, I don’t know, Jo… I’ve wondered about Hannity, too. Could he have some sort of journalistic immunity? What’s the difference between someone who reports the news and someone who comments on the news? Does someone who merely comments on the news have any sort of journalistic immunity?

        • Journalists don’t have any sort of codified immunity. They typically refuse to disclose their sources, even under court order, but may be charged with contempt for doing so. They will appeal on 1st Amendment grounds… It’s a case by case struggle. This is different because everyone knows GZ spoke to Hannity. However, as anything Hannity might report could be considered hearsay, there may be no point in calling him. And certainly, getting him involved would create a distracting circus atmosphere.

          • Thanks, whonoze!

41. I have been doing some research on Air Marshall, and found some things. First Air Marshall use a Sig .357 P-250 at one time they ammo was so powerful it would go through the entire plane. At another the ammo was a frangible ammunition but the source dried up, there is some question on what type of ammounition should be used. Currently a hollow point ammountion is used, just like GZ had. Another aspect of Air Marshall that, and the boost about it are trained to “shoot to kill”. However the only incident I found was in 2005, a mental ill person claimed to have a bomb, but when confronted he drop the so called bomb and ran from the airplane and down the run way, he was killed by Air Marshalls. Another aspect is that training for Air Marshalls is only 5 weeks.

    The Air Marshall service has been plaged by alcoholish, sleeping on job, human trafficing, kiddie porn, child molenstation, weapons smuggling. Some 3 dozen Air Marshalls have been dismissed due to conviction and misconduct. In fact there appear to be no background checks, some Air Marshalls were hired even with criminal records.

    http://www.propublica.org/article/air-marshals-undercover-and-under-arrest-1113

    • Unbelievable! Thanks for the link.

    • VERY interesting link…thank you. I previously — Friday — thought/assumed on twitter that air marshals were legit government employees similar to FBI agents. So, I wondered why Osterman would be hanging out with the likes of Zimmerman. I guess their legitimacy was easily disproved.

      • @ NLmE

        I am not getting follow up post. I posted the jailhouse calls, and haven’t rec’d any comments after that, please help!

42. who was it that overheard someone ask zimmerman what bullet he used and how long was it after the shooting? Could this have been his gun buddy who apparently arrived very quickly since he commented that he didn’t speak to george or the police “in depth”.

    • IIRC, Jon was the one who asked if he used a 9 or 40, and Jon is the one who tells that to investigators. Jon was the first person on scene and he Jon says that GZ tells him that he was getting beat up so he had to shoot then the guy says he asked if he used a 9 or 40. I’m not sure if anyone else overheard this conversation.

    • This text suggests that gun buddy is iphone Jon?

      “Flashlights from neighbors began to illuminate bits of the night. Police were en route. Zimmerman stood over Trayvon.

      “The gun’s on the ground,” Zimmerman said, according to the witness. “I shot this guy in self-defense.”

      They appear to be his first words after the shooting.

      Another neighbor whose wife had been peering intermittently at the squabble soon came outside. He shined his flashlight on Zimmerman.

      “Man, I got blood on my face?” Zimmerman asked, the witness told police on the night of the shooting.

      “Yeah, you got blood all over, man,” the witness said he responded. “I looked over and he’s got blood on the back of his head. You all right man?”

      Zimmerman: “Ah, man this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him.” The witness asked what kind of gun Zimmerman shot.

      “Did you use a 9 [mm] or a .40?” he asked.

      Zimmerman: “I used a 9.” Witness: “Did you call 911 yet?”

      Zimmerman squatted down and, the witness said, he could see “blood on the back of his head, grass stains. And by that time I flashed my light down. And there was this kid face down in the grass.”

      “Can you please call my wife,” Zimmerman reportedly asked him, the witness said in a follow-up interview a month later. “Let her know what happened.”

      The witness complied, called Mrs. Zimmerman and told her that her husband was handcuffed and being held in a shooting. Zimmerman apparently chimed in.”

      Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/17/2804894/cries-in-the-night-witnesses-conflict.html#storylink=cpy

      • @Toneii –

        Correct. That is W13. Listen to his second recorded witness statement with FDLE on 3/20/12

        http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

43. Here’s Serino’s 2 page FBI statement for anyone who hasn’t seen it, yet.

    • Here’s my problem with Serino pointing at these other people as the leaks… In one of the OS articles supposedly from a source close to/with the SPD, IIRC, states that the person believes Zimmerman’s story. It wouldn’t make sense for the people supposedly pressuring Serino because they didn’t believe GZ and thought he should be arrested would then leak info while stating they believed his claim of SD. How does that add up?

      • haha you still expecting anything to add up about this case??

        All I can think is, if you are say one of only 2 people who believe one version, saying so when you leak something is going to make it real easy to identify you. So you can claim to be one of the majority with the other view.

        We all seriously need to take a very close look at our unrealistic expectation that most people most the time will tell the whole truth about anything.

        Some untruths are for convenience. Some are by omission. Some by vagueness that lets the hearer make assumptions, some of these deliberately aimed at that result and some accidentally caused by speaker and listener having different frames of reference. Some don’t matter at all.

        Some may be deliberate lies. Even those will often have a grain of truth in them, as we are finding with GZ’s stories. It is easier to take a truth and twist it a little, than to make up something totally new.

        For example he says he went through to RVC — maybe he did but not along the top path. He says Trayvon approached his car — maybe he did but not at the club/mailboxes. He says 3 witnesses came out — well they did but not while he was being held down calling for help. He says he was on top of TM restraining him — maybe he was but not after he’d shot him.

        • Aussie, you state: . ..He says 3 witnesses came out — well they did but not while he was being held down calling for help. [b]He says he was on top of TM restraining him — maybe he was but not after he’d shot him.[/b]

          I’ve been following these threads pretty closely, and I believe I understand your theories of what occurred…but I am unclear on this – are you saying that you do not believe that GZ’s story that he got on top of Trayvon after he shot him and pulled his arms out in a “Y” to restrain him?

          If so, could you elaborate on why you believe he is telling this lie, if you have a theory in that regard? TIA

44. princss6 mentioned a non-emergency/911 call GZ made before where it shows he was willing to confront a teen he believed was a criminal. In the call towards the end, he says “I’m gonna…” then his wife interrupts him and tells him no, don’t go out there, and he replies “Why not?”

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68911949/News/Past-911-call-George-Zimmerman-reports-a-black-male-that-matches-robbery-suspect#pl-62773735

    • After listening to the other calls, this is the only time he mentions going out there. All the other black males are older and/or in groups. When he saw a teenage suspect alone, though, he seemed not to have a problem going out there, but his wife stopped him.

      In addition, in one call where he mentions a black man he sees on garbage days that is now walking between some houses, GZ states he knows the owner of the home then adds “he’s caucasian.” WHY? The dispatcher does not ask anything about the race of the homeowner, so why does GZ feel it necessary to offer up that detail?

      • Same story he tells in the walk-through at the start. The long story about the previous time he was someone at Taaffe’s house. I think it’s just meant to mean the owner is Caucasian therefore this black person can’t be the owner, therefore he’s up to no good being there.

        • Calling it in saying you know the owner kind of already points out this is not the owner, lol, so it’s unnecessary to add that the owner is caucasian after he’s already said he knows the owner (if this was the owner then he wouldn’t be calling it in), but sorry to post something repetitive.

        • @aussie –

          That’s what I heard, too. Another possibility is that he knows somehow that Taaffe didn’t have black friends.

    • Thank you. It does indeed sound like he was ready to go confront. Wonder the date of that call.

45. This is rumor so if anyone here can confirm it I would like to know. The bank videos of the GZ on the night he shot TM are now available. On another website someone there claims to have seen the video, it shows GZ and Mark Osterman at the bank ATM, just prior to the shooting. I understand that Osterman did show up at the shooting as well, he lives some distance away. There appears to be no calls on GZ cell phone to Osterman that night, so why did he show up? Another question is why didn’t GZ tell the police he was at the bank ATM with Osterman?

    • The ATM video shows someone at 6:36 PM who may or may not be Osterman.

      No sign of Zimmerman in that video.

      All it proves so far is that a guy with little or no hair who is not Zimmerman in a silverish sedan has an ATM card.

      unitron

      • Actually the first person on the video could be Shellie.

        • I agree. I haven’t done more Honda Ridgeline research yet (though said research will only take seconds). Specifically, research on the driver’s side mirror.

    • I’m late to the party today but is there any link you can cite regarding the above? Especially…

      “There appears to be no calls on GZ cell phone to Osterman that night, so why did he show up?”

      Or, was that passage entirely (not in a condescending tone) a rumor?

46. So NMLE, it’s very likely they didn’t communicate Osterman, Taaffe and GZ, by phone, but by walkies talkies purchased at Walmart? Could telling someone to “call my wife, tell her I shot someone”, be to let her know why Osterman will be asking her to come with him as he recovers GZ’s car and walkie-talkie? From the way he talks about Shellie before the bail hearing, I doubt he’d trust her to do this on her own.

    But it kinda explains why GZ can’t give directions to his truck. He doesn’t want them looking in it, before the radios can be removed. Yeah, pure speculation, but it does make a wee bit of sense, no? I mean, why else would a guy not know the three streets in a nabe he patrolled for many months? If there was a radio in the truck, then he certainly had a very good reason to become terribly confused, eh?

    I goofed in not noting that the bank was in the opposite direction from 711, but no matter, for a guy with Osterman’s creds, that presents only a very tiny problem, for him, in tracking TM, if he’s interested. There are binoculars and that sort of thing. And, of course, they always have FT to fall back on.

    • Oh and we mustn’t forget that GZ mentions his truck and driving in the calls, so it’s not hard to imagine that his truck might become of interest early on. Thus, it’s extraordinarily helpful to have someone with Osterman’s LEO credentials around, to almost ensure that they can remove the truck from the scene. Osterman reminds me of “Hank” from “Breaking Bad”. Him and Shellie could easily pass for husband and wife.

      I wonder if they were there in time to see the police checking tags? If so, it would have been pretty “ballzy” to go take the truck after that. In fact, with Osterman’s LEO creds, I’d rather have expected him to inform the police that this was Zimmerman’s vehicle and that perhaps they should have a closer look at it. I mean, I expect that’s what he’d do at any crime scene he was in control of, eh? So why is he spiriting evidence away at this one? FBI minds will certainly want to know!

      • Soething is going on… George doesn;t want the cops to come to his house…. then doesn’t want them to come to his truck. The truck is moved before police can search by ex-cop buddy and wife. George used to be a “banger” — maybe neighborhood watch really just hyper-watchful for rival gangs. What better way to keep an eye on police activity — and writing “suck-up” letters about the beat cops. Why was Osterman involved at every step? George previously worked as “muscle” or security.

        • Oh yeah, in our haste we often forget that GZ worked as “Muscle” on Security Jobs! Does anyone think that Bar Bouncers and security “Muscle” are tepid, mild mannered and unable/unwilling to engage combat with total strangers?
          Are such people usually so weak that unarmed teens can easily push them around? Do bar bouncers and security agents shrink from fear of strangers?

          Had Trayvon ever worked as a security guard or as a bar bouncer? If a teen were to be confronted by a bar bouncer, who would you give the edge to?

          Like I said: Lose the fight, there wasn’t one! You’re not going to punch a bouncer in the nose, and send him reeling and stumbling 50 feet, most especially not as an untrained teen, even with some combat or street fight skills, you’d be toast!

          GZ needs to revamp his stories and show how he got fired from his security/bouncer jobs, for shrinking away from physical situations. Or, show what he did to defend himself against TM’s supposed attack! Bouncers don’t lay on their backs, helplessly, while some lighter teen pummels them to within an inch of their life, without taking some rather dramatic actions!

          No one would hire “Mr. Rogers” as a bar bouncer or security!
          Nor would they hire “Rambo” to teach kindergarten!

          • “In our haste we often forget that GZ worked as “Muscle” on Security Jobs! Does anyone think that Bar Bouncers and security “Muscle” are tepid, mild mannered and unable/unwilling to engage combat with total strangers?
            Are such people usually so weak that unarmed teens can easily push them around? Do bar bouncers and security agents shrink from fear of strangers?”

            Excellent point. I have plenty of friends that were bouncers. Most of them are extremely mild mannered on the exterior — you can’t let your emotions get in the way and it takes a lot of patience to deal with drunk people all night — but, they’ll rip your head off and chew it up for dessert once shit hits the fan.

            • Yes! I don’t mean to paint bouncers as mean surly people. They are hired because of their ability to control themselves in difficult situations.

              What I was focused on was the fact that the people who hire them, have also to be assured that the bouncer can handle themselves in a fight. Superior combat skills, means there’s less likelihood of things escalating out of control. And that it’s more likely that a combatant would be brought under control fairly quickly without much physical damage being needed or done.

              If combatants are more evenly matched, fights go on longer, get more desperate and wilder. There’s more chance that the parties will suffer serious harm. So, you have to somehow test your prospective hire for an ability to over match most probable assailants. So, if he’s hired as “muscle” or security or a bar bouncer, it’s a pretty good bet that his employer, is sure he can overcome more than 50% of his likely adult opponents.

              I mean, could you imagine hiring someone as a bouncer, who shrank if you raised your hand towards them? Hardly, so it’s a certainty that George Zimmerman was in possession of good combat skills. Which, by the way, entails making a quick recovery from first strikes! And that’s if your not prepared to defend against that possibility before hand.

              So now we have GZ’s, unafraid to confront combative adults, somehow being overcome by a weak, unskilled teen! Hogwash!!!

    • Somewhere GZ says his wife is with his friend Mark. While he was “going shopping”. I never saw the original, I saw it quoted here about a week ago.
      The last person at the ATM looks to me like MO. here is my screenshots again. Someone said doesn’t look like the same, I say look at the shape of the ears.
      

      No need for walkie-talkies. MO goes visiting (either pre-planned or because of something he saw on his way out of the bank) and mentions he saw a maybe-Goon-gang-member approaching the estate. The timing would put him in view of Trayvon walking along Oregon Ave. Purely accidentally. He sits with Shellie while GZ goes to check it out.

      No need for tracking or binoculars, let’s not make a conspiracy out of what is just a hastily invented cover-up after things go pear-shape.

      GZ says a bit impatiently “just tell her I just shot somebody” because she knows the rest already. She and MO go to the scene, she removes the car.

      It looks like there may have been TWO cars registered to a Zimmerman at the scene. The cops doing the tag checks mention a white Honda but we don’t hear the response re ownership, and another vehicle they say belongs to “zimmerman”. Nothing about an outsider (eg MO who lives at Lake Mary about 10-12 minutes down the road). So they go in her car which maybe MO later drives back, while she drives GZ’s , or the other way around.

      The existence of walkie talkies would not be something to hide. They are not illegal. Finding one doesn’t lead to the other. Spare firearms???? Creating impression of having been walking all along (if believed the NEN call isn’t recorded) ??? (for purpose of hiding the following/stalking). Maybe just to get an unlocked vehicle blocking traffic off the road when who knows how long before the owner is let home. Maybe his dog was in the vehicle?

      • Purposely hiding your communications while on Neighborhood Watch so that they don’t show up on phone logs would be damning.

        Again, I’m not saying with any sort of certainty that anybody used alternative forms of communication that night. I’m simply stating when Zimmerman pulled the trigger he knew his phone records could be used against him in a court of law.

      • Aussie, I can see a similarity in the Atm video and the picture of MO in this link. http://globalgrind.com/news/us-air-marshal-mark-osterman-took-george-zimmerman-in-trayvon-martin-details

    • This case would be even more decided (in the court of public opinion at least) if phone records show any sort of communications between the 3 leading up to the shooting.

      That being said, the 3 would also know how damning phone logs would be in any hypothetical situation like Trayvon’s murder. So, I speculated (a few months ago) that there *could* have been alternative forms of communication used.

      It would be great to hear from somebody else that used to make the Neighborhood Watch rounds with Zimmerman and Taaffe.

47. For those interested in witness #9, it’s not the ex-girlfriend/fiance.

    Zimmerman relative, 'Witness 9' accused Zimmerman of racial bias

    • gee you’re quick, haha….thanks for the link

      • that article doesn’t mention the molestation accusation from 6 to 16…she is a relative. Check this one out http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-witness-9-phone-calls-new-evidence-released-trayvon-case-details

        • Take with huge grain of salt.

          Who else did she ever tell for 10 years?

          He was 8 when this allegedly started. A kid himself. She says she thought some of it was ok at the time. Only later looking back on it sees it as molestation. Happens a lot, I’m sure plenty of boys try if they get the chance. A mixture of curiosity and bullying. Doesn’t make him or them criminals.

          And certainly an 8 year old can’t be a “pedophile” as I’ve seen said on some sites already. Nor is an 18 year old vis a vis a 16 year old.

          Let’s keep some proportion and common sense here, and not start to demonise GZ on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand.

          The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism; claims of racism from the mother do nothing to prove any from him; and being a supposed molester at age 8 does not prove being a murderer at age 28. In fact it wouldn’t even prove being a rapist at age 28.

          The woman may be genuine and sincere, but all this detour will achieve is gaining more supporters for GZ because of the demonising aspect. It doesn’t warrant our spending any time on this just to help that cause.

          • she told her parents. It may not have anything to do with what happened to Trayvon but neither does a lot of the stuff discussed here about Zimmermans character. It’s on the news, i’m getting confused as to what is relevent and what is not here lately.

            • ” It’s on the news, i’m getting confused as to what is relevent and what is not here lately.”

              Me too.

            • Jo, will you clarify something for me? When you say you aren’t sure what’s relevant here by here do you mean on the blog or in the case?

            • I think we can agree that someone has to take witness 9’s allegations seriously. That someone being a different task force (real life SVU?) and investigating it as a separate issue, but not as part of this shooting case. For example, was GZ already 18 and an adult when the last of those alleged incidents occurred, and did it amount to a crime? Are there going to be others who will come forward with additional accusations because of this? But she was not a witness to the shooting and unfortunately did not even seem to be able to give a solid story or quote in which GZ said or did anything racially negative, which doesn’t help the prosecution. I’m not saying that definitely means he never said anything racial. It just says that she hasn’t given any concrete evidence of it and is rather more focused on the other issues, which can’t be directly connected to the shooting case.

          • This mitigation is disappointing…more later when my pressure comes down.

        • He said “black” he said “coon” that was on the news, too. Trayvon had gold grills and made gang signs, that was on the news. Black great-grandfather was on the news. TM attacked him and beat him senseless was on the news.

          It’s not “news” it’s tabloid TV sensationalism to get more eyes on the commercials.

          We already know his character is dubious, to say the least. That is not evidence in a Murder 2 case. Bad behaviour at elementary school age is not evidence ether. Sex games with a cousin (?) does not go to motive for a killing. The only character statements relevant would be about not telling the truth, to strengthen the doubt about his version of the events.

          It’s muckraking, unnecessary, irrelevant. Pro-GZ people are already working to discredit this “witness” and when they succeed it will just bring more supporters to their side.

          • And they WILL succeed with Pro-Trayvon people trying to play the hush hush game with this Witness. I’m still not ready to respond because an outcry of abuse SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. ever. Ask Penn State!

            • “I’m still not ready to respond because an outcry of abuse SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN WITH A GRAIN OF SALT. ever. Ask Penn State!”

              Agreed.

              At the very least, Zimmerman’s ability/desire to manipulate has been brought further to the forefront by Witness 9. What did Zimmerman manipulate before/after the shooting? What has he manipulated since?

              For example, Zimmerman said he was crying for help but that’s not true per two independent forensics experts. So, what else is there?

              Since Trayvon was killed and everybody seemed to have been looking anywhere else but outside when Zimmerman’s shot was fired — Note: I still don’t think this is true — it will be Zimmerman’s word vs. the prosecution. This is why W9’s statement is so important (even though her statement may not be admissible in court).

        • QETNO…i meant here at the blog

        • @jo

          Okay, thanks! I thought that’s what you meant, but just wanted to make sure. I am with you on that then…

        • aussie i posted a link to evidence that was released, nothing more. Trayvon was shot and was only 17 and apparently had some issues that were dug up by pro-Zimmerman people. It sucks because he is the victim who was innocently walking home. Most of what they constitute as thug behaviour is just typical teenage behaviour, it IS muck raking, they are making issues out of nothing and blaming the victim for being shot because he might have smoked dope or had tatoos.

          George Zimmerman has been accused of a crime, he shot someone and in the evidence that was released this lady made some very serious claims about his past behaviour. I did not muck rake. It is there in big bold writing. I didn’t go looking for it, it’s there.

          NLME – i agree with you, as discussed here previously, Zimmerman is a manipulator and may see younger people as easier to control. I wonder how Shellie would feel, does it ring true to her (any past behaviours that sound familiar) and as we suggested with him meeting up with his ex girlfriend could she withdraw her support and maybe decide to save her ass by giving info on him..i guess that depends on if she believes it or not.

48. whoa..witness number 9…just saw it on TV but haven’t seen it online yet.

    • all of a sudden him laying on the bed with the young neighbour seems even creepier.

      • and i only say this because witness 9 mentioned that he got her to lay on the bed so it sounds a little familiar.

      • Indeed! I’m picking up on the fact that he uses excuses to trap people into his web also. Ex-fiance, my grandma’s sick, let’s just talk in a safe environment (your place). W9, there’ll be lots of people here — like a party (you’re safe ’cause so many people are going to be here).

49. shit George
    http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-witness-9-phone-calls-new-evidence-released-trayvon-case-details

50. i think this http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Motion%20to%20Stay.pdf

    might be why they tried to get Lester kicked off…they thought that by putting in the motion to dismiss him he would not be able to release witness 9 statments because he is not suppose to rule on it until after the dismissal is decided…probably hoping they could then talk the next judge around.

    • Haha! Didn’t work.

51. I keep reading that Mark Osterman was at the crime scene and either had to be ejected or was simply wandering around. We know the gates were closed by 7:31pm so he couldn’t have sped up from Lake Mary and gotten in (unless he walked in). How do we know MO was at the crime scene? Does anyone know where it said this? And again, where was it that George said that Shellie was with Mark? I’m going to spend some time looking today. Also, I presume the back gate was also closed?

    I have done portraits off and on for years, I love examining how faces look from different angles. That sure looks like Mark Osterman at the bank. Sitting in the car would allow the fat of his cheeks to slump and round out ever so slightly as opposed to the standing photos I’ve compared him to. The eyes are the same distance apart, the ears look exactly right, as do the nose and mouth and chin(s). He could usually wear prescription sunglasses, however the evening was overcast and raining and getting dark and he’d want his regular glasses. The frames are distinctive, so another pic of MO in these glasses would help confirm (if he wears them). They also could be reading glasses. The eyebrows do appear heavier and this remains my biggest doubt, but this could be explained by the lighting coming from above.
    I hope the cameras caught the license plate, I read this was only a possibility, not a given.

    It’s actually kind of funny. Mark Osterman has been the Ignored Person, the guy that was the best friend and biggest help to George, yet the MSM didn’t mention him. Now this guy at the bank, whether or not he actually is MO, has catapulted Mark’s involvement into the forefront. Get ready for your spotlight Mark, it’s your turn for 15 minutes of infamy, starting today.

    If this isn’t Mark, I’d LOVE to see both of these men standing side by side. Peas in a pod.

    • Hi, it was Osterman who said Shellie called him and he went with her to the scene but didn’t talk “in depth” with George or the police. I can’t remember the page number in the recent dump but i think its somewhere around page 77.

      • Yep p 76 or 77.

        The person hanging about inside the crime tape was Jonathan (W13) as one officer describes an “Asian man” being there and asked to leave; Jonathan is Filipino and the only Asian involved in this case afaik.

        You won’t get a license tag from the bank vids. The atm one is side on and doesn’t show them. Of the other 4 only 1 is at an angle that would show up plates, but it is a short stretch of road, and time elapse, (the one with the parking spaces marked). So most cars pass without being visible at all. I saw only 1 actual vehicle on this, though changes in lights (esp once the road was wet) indicate many other cars passing through.

        • thanks Jo and Aussie, it’s so hard to keep this all straight. Too bad about the plates. I wonder whether MO had to park outside and walk in, or whether he had his car? Would depend on when he got there I suppose. It’s coincidently interesting that the bank video and this statement would be released at the same time. He definitely was there, only questions are where and when.

        • MO claims the call came from SZ so that would be post-shooting but only by around two minutes that she was contacted – or was it MO who GZ was calling FIRST in the bloody head photo? He’s holding a phone to his ear in the picture.

          Regarding the blocking of the gates – he could have beaten the officers to the gate if he had notice, or he could have been admitted by flashing a badge (assuming air marshals have badges/credentials) or he could have parked and walked in by the same shortcut that TM used (ironic) or he could have been there ahead of the shooting. We just don’t know. We do know he was NOT at home if that’s him at the ATM.

          The question is, how did the investigators KNOW to check the bank videos? I have a conspiracy theory about that but it’s pure CT.

          But Osterman himself claims he was on the crime scene and apparently spoke both to officers AND to GZ when he qualified his statement to say he did not talk to GZ or the officers IN DEPTH. He doesn’t claim he had no contact – just that he didn’t chat for long. I find this significant to take note of but as of yet only fuel for speculation, not proof of much.

          That the car was moved also seems significant, but not yet proof of much except bad behavior on the part of a former deputy who should know better than to encourage this sort of activity in relation to a murder investigation.. What do we know about officers who ran plates on cars? Is any of this recorded? I didn’t see it in the text messages but someone upthread said something about a white honda and a car tied to Zimmerman? I missed the source of that – please reply if anyone knows the source of this.

          Okay, here is my conspiracy theory: Mark Osterman acting a mole for the prosecution, having been flipped in regards to his crime of interfering with an investigation. Obviously there is zero proof of this, but it sure would make the prosecution’s job easier. And if they had their act together it’s certainly possible, and also explains why he admitted his ATM visit.

        • @willisnewton

          The comment you are asking about that mentioned a Honda and a vehicle registered to Zimmerman was from police dispatch at the scene the night of 2/26 where two plate numbers were run off.

          Source (2:10 mark):

          http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/71027545/News/Audio-Sanford-Police-dispatch-following-Trayvon-shooting#gl-1

      • i bet they have checked their bank records and there was some action at that time which is why they looked at the video..so they should know if someone was at the bank. I wonder if MO is part of (or all of) this security team that George is paying with his supporters money?

        • Jo, of course they did. thanks, I forget how these things can be so easily tracked once the original connection is made. They know, whether we know or not.
          It appears MO has been George’s security team since this began. It would be easy to believe this relationship is continuing. Nice money all around.

        • It’s gotten so I just can’t find every item to show where I got it from originally.

          But…
          one officer says he was despatched to nearby businesses to get their security tapes IN CASE the show something. Like something about the (originally unidentified) victim. They did have a 7-11 receipt from Trayvon but it would be the thorough and right thing to do to check both directions.

          It may be quite possible the prosecution has NOT SEEN the bank videos and/or NOT SEEN who it shows or not put 2+2 together about it. They’d release them as evidence because
          * it’s something they collected, like the interviews with the gunshop owner etc
          * it is SAFE to release, won’t hurt the case either way
          * it shuts up the baying media and bloggers (like us)

          After all the clubhouse videos showed nothing, either, as far as they knew, until our tchoupi spent days analysing them. Even now they’re useless as evidence without the further work of deliberate tests to verify his results.

          This blog started as a timeline analysis, and both sets of videos form a big part of that. The police did no timeline work at all; if the other investigators did we’ve not seen it.

          The videos were obtained very early on, next day I think. So, just a procedural habit, not looking to prove/disprove anything. And they’ve released them, I believe, thinking them to show nothing.

          Properly analysed they might be what makes or breaks the case, because they are recorded evidence of a deliberate chase. EVIDENCE, not just a reasonable doubt, that it did not happen as GZ says it did, from the very first moment.

52. Does anyone remeber when Tracy Martin had said that one of the detectives told him a different version of events? The investigator told Mr.Martin that Trayvon approached gz vechicle and said “why are you following me?” And gz said “I’m not following you.” Then minutes later gz got out of his car to check a street sign. Trayvon approached gz from behind a building and said “what’s your problem homie?” Where the hell did this story come from? I didn’t hear gz mention this in his renactment or in the account he gave to the police.

    • That seems like Tracy Martin having a bad recollection of how he was told about the events, and little more, or else had a police source who was hearing things second hand. Most of the basic elements to this story are intact, but the order is scrambled.

      Obviously you can concoct sinister and convoluted versions of what this means, but I’m not sure I’d take to too far. Looks like maybe Barnes tried to keep Tracy up to date on the investigation but he was not part of the inner circle of investigators. Serino says Barns (sp?) was friendly to Tracy and asked Serino for Tracy’s number but eventually got the number by other means.

      FWIW, Barnes/barns is black, and these events were happening when public interest was ramping up about possible racial bias both from GZ and the SPD as being the reason for a lack of arrest and charges being filed. As it turns out, the investigation was ongoing but had run into a wall somewhat regarding proving GZ’s story of the physical altercation itself is false because of the lack of a good witness to the start of the altercation.

53. Per aussie’s reply to my original post of the news today regarding Witness 9 (comment #47)
    “Let’s keep some proportion and common sense here, and not start to demonise GZ on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand.
    The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism”

    I actually quite agree with Aussie’s comments. These new allegations in an of themselves have nothing to do with the night of the shooting. Believing that they do is akin to using non-relevant rumors about TM to support his alleged first attack of GZ. I suggest that we do not discuss the sordid details.

    However, I do want to comment on her characterization of GZ as being a talker/charmer and being different with certain people. His ex also said the same thing. This is consistent with the vast majority of the interviews with neighbors and co-workers not turning up any type of negative comments about him. With people he considers peers, the community, potential employers and authority (i.e., SPD) he can put on a good face.

    What’s interesting is probably his belief that he can smooth talk his way out of things (just doesn’t do it very well). Examples of his uses of “charm”:

    1) Gives statements freely to SPD right after the shooting without a lawyer, and sounds convincing at first glance.
    2) Talked of suicide to his ex, but she believes its about garnering sympathy
    3) The night he stalked his ex outside her house and she calls him on it, he laughs it off and says he just wanted to talk about his sick grandmother (wants more sympathy)
    4) According to bullied co-worker, GZ’s teasing was done to put himself in a better position with the work clique.
    5) The relative witness 9 describes him of being charming with everyone but is different with her.
    6) Tries to apologize/answer TM’s mother’s questions on the stand at the first bond hearing, thinking his apologies might win him points.
    7) Emails to Bill Lee (former/fired Police Chief) thanking him profusely.
    8) Insistence on talking to the judge directly but not be cross-examined by the prosecutor at the 2nd bond hearing, thinking he might charm Lester into believing whatever reasons he might give for hiding money. Charm Lester? What was he thinking?

    • Excellent comment/analysis.

    • I agree with NLME about the manipulation by Zimmerman and I also agree that your bulleted points are excellent analysis. I have noted most of those points as things that stuck out as oddities as well.

      The part I disagree with is this:

      “on the basis of one allegation, which is totally irrelevant to the case in hand. The molestation claims do nothing to support the claim of racism”

      To me, this is inaccurate and it also misses the point that:

      1) W9’s initial call was prior to the hype and she came forward because she knew George Zimmerman and his whole family was racist to encourage the SPD to not just take a superficial look into the matters.

      2) W9’s statement confirms the ex-fiance’s statement that the mother exhibits racist views (marry white to better status said by ex-fiance, W9 had to shield her black friend from racial abuse when Zimmerman’s mother proudly proclaimed she was a racist who didn’t like Obama BECAUSE HE IS BLACK).

      3) W9 is a family insider and told her story long before Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin.

      4) The final act against her per W9’s account occurred when Zimmerman was 18 and she was a minor which, again, shows his lack of respect for the law (which presumably prohibits such activity).

      It isn’t demonizing when it is State law that requires the information to be made public.

      • According to gzlegalcase.com, they are already planning to file reciprocal discovery on W9. Defense confirms this is a cousin of George Zimmerman.

        • Can’t wait to see yet another “reciprocal injunction” type excuse from Zimmerman. Wonder if the defense team will be sure to indicate that W9 drew blood or some crap and say it was in self defense that he tricked her into coming to his party in order to rape her when she was 16 and he was 18.

        • I’m sure it’ll be another round of “everyone’s a liar, but George.” While I don’t think anything to do with the sexual abuse allegation can come into trial, can’t they use it to discredit THE FAMILY when they say no one in the family is a racist? The mother showing bias is corroborated by the ex-fiance’s statement.

      • I have commented above in the Comment #47 thread about the “relevance” of W9’s statements. Don’t get me wrong, I actually believe she sounds very genuine and her allegations regarding the abuse should be investigated, just not as part of this case.

        Regarding her statements about what the family is “like”, it may be interesting to the public but not the court of law. If that were the case, then I feel very sorry for every child in the US born to a racist family and cannot escape the association no matter what. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel sorry for GZ. But how wrong does it feel to hear “I know how they are, they’re all like that….” without being able to give a definitive scenario. It just will not hold up in court, I’m sorry to say. It is also akin to the other sides’ argument about AA teenagers “I know how they are, they’re all like that….” You wouldn’t support that kind of statement in that context right?

        Finally, the 911 calls were released on March 19 (see link below) and it was all over the media. That was the day she called in, if I understand correctly that the statement released today was recorded on March 20. In that recording, they asked her if she had called the day before (she said yes) and was then invited to come in the following day to make that statement. So yes, she was responding to the hype. Unfortunately, she can’t seem to substantiate a specific racial act by GZ since she said she blocked out much of her memories. The defense will have a field day with her if she goes on the stand with that.

        http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57399800-504083/911-calls-released-in-trayvon-martin-fatal-shooting/

        • She called SPD 2 days after the shooting, fyi.

        • I think looking at a cold-blooded murder, a history of childhood sexual abuse is relevant in so many ways. Trayvon’s murder did not happen in a vacuum. There was a lead up and a build up to his murder and the depraved indifference the confessed murder displayed with others prior to 2.26 goes a long way in explaining why he was so aggressive with Trayvon. He has been victimizing others for a long time and that IS important and as the prosecution has said, if he tries to play the Saint George game, Witness 9, a brave survivor who should not have her story discounted, will be there to rebutt it.

          This all goes to the psychological profile of this murderer.

          • When I was in college, there was a guy I remember being a cashier at a convenience store. Well, no one knew, but he was a nut, keeping a diary about his plan to kill a girl. He had picked out a victim and everything. Well, he was out in the country and his car broke down, a lady picked him up to give him a ride, and he stabbed her and killed her. They caught him as he was walking away from the scene. They surmised that something about this lady that picked him up, reminded him of the girl he was planning to kill. That aspect of it reminds me of George Zimmerman. He found someone that fit the profile of someone he was planning on dispensing justice to, and he hunted him down and killed him, in a delusional fantasy. Then he searched the body, found nothing but ice tea in the bag whic he threw to the side. Then he immediately had to start crafting his cover story.

          • Well said.

        • Thank you Question everything trust no one. I stand correct about the timing of Witness 9’s first call.

        • As qetno said, she called in her tip 2 days after the killing. It could have been on the news locally, but not nationally. She could have learned of the killing in a family social as well.

          Again, she did not WANT to come forward and seems to only have gotten courage enough after superficial investigations weren’t productive.

        • I don’t think the defense will touch W9 with a 10 foot pole. As much evidence as there is that Zimmerman profiled Martin because of the color of his skin, no hate crime charges have been filed…yet. Meaning, there’s no reason for the defense to bring up her charges of racism within the Zimmerman family…yet.

          This is about a grown man with a gun unlawfully chasing down an unarmed teenager returning home from the convenience store, inexcusably murdering the kid during a scuffle, and then not being able to explain the event’s happenings with any sort of consistency or accuracy.

        • @CSFC

          O’Mara was just on Piers Morgan using Zimmerman supporter talking points again. He just made the false statement that she only called one day before the recording. Ummm, nope, try again. She didn’t even give her name or contact info to the SPD officer. The prosecution probably had to get the phone records that came into the station to determine who called the time of her call in order to contact her.

          Oh, and O’Mara says GZ is denying this abuse. Well, duh.

        • Just want to clarify, she did call back on the 19th. I thought they would have attempted to contact her, not the other way around. Her first call was February 28. She probably called back once she realized George was going to get away with something terrible.

        • @NLME –

          The state (big Bernie D) has already said they will only use W9 as a rebuttal witness. I could be wrong, but I take this to mean the State will only introduce W9 if O’Mara tries to introduce “Zimmerman was an alter boy” or fake “Zimmerman put out flyers to protest the other Sanford PD coverup of the black homeless guy and his mother’s a witness” type evidence to paint George Zimmerman as a person of good character.

          I actually hope the case doesn’t devolve into anything as chitty as that, but I think the defense is desperate so it might.

          • “I actually hope the case doesn’t devolve into anything as chitty as that, but I think the defense is desperate so it might.”

            If the defense dissolves too far, Americans could start (further) questioning gun rights. The NRA doesn’t want this. In fact, I’m pretty sure the NRA would rather see a quick/low key (impossible now) conviction resulting in “one bad apple” getting locked up for a bit.

            Should Zimmerman somehow walk, there are going to be a ton of people demanding that somebody like he never be able to own (or at least conceal) a weapon again. I’m talking, for example, inclusion of any/all mental disorders (yes, even ADHD) and medical records during the licensing process.

        • @qetno –

          O’Mara may get to pick and choose what he tells the media, but what is sunshined is not under his control. As you correctly stated, W9’s coming forward about Zimmerman’s character and his family’s was a mere 2 days after the murder.

          Think about it. O’Mara introduced already recanted “evidence” at the last hearing regarding W6. I guess that’s his job. Seems sleazy to put forth a story when you KNOW the evidence is no longer evidence!

        • @NLME

          “Should Zimmerman somehow walk, there are going to be a ton of people demanding that somebody like he never be able to own (or at least conceal) a weapon again. I’m talking, for example, inclusion of any/all mental disorders (yes, even ADHD) and medical records during the licensing process.”

          I think ADHD falls under behavioral disorders rather than mental disorders, but I agree, and I do think it’s smart to look at someone’s medical history in relation to owning, but especially concealed carrying of a firearm. I actually have no problem with people wanting to own guns. It just freaks me out the kind of people that are allowed to have guns then proceed to concealed carry.

          • That could be right. I called ADHD a mental disorder out of habit.

            I’ve never cited Yahoo Answers before — is doing so better or worse than sourcing Wikipedia? — but, here’s an entry…

            http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081017081425AA7DEbm

        • @NLME

          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002518/

          It’s referred to as a behavioral disorder. At the CDC web site, it states “neurobehavioral” meaning the way the brain affects emotion, behavior, and learning.

          • I just googled ADHD. The first non paid result is from the NIMH. The page’s description in the search result mentions ADHD is a mental disorder.

            Six of one and a half dozen of the other? Not sure.

        • @NLME

          I think behavior disorders fall under a class of mental illness. IIRC. So, I guess we are both correct, lol.

          • You beat me to it!

            It looks like six of one and a half dozen of the other.

            🙂

        • I google everything. EVERYTHING, I tell you, lol. I typically hate being wrong, and if I am wrong, I like to be the first to correct myself.

          (If you want to check it out.) Info on ADHD in adults:
          http://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/guide/adhd-adults

          Anyway, time for a 5 hour nap! 🙂

54. Is there anywhere in there to enable a preview feature for comments so one can somewhat see what one’s comment is going to look like before one submits it?

    unitron

    • I’ll email you a screenshot later tonight of my WordPress comment moderation options…some of the page is like French.

      Maybe you’ll see something that should be checked/unchecked. Otherwise, if the comments keep acting up, we’ll have to revert back to what “worked” previously.

55. Dear BccList Commenters (so formal, eh?):

    I *think* I figured out the issue with comments not showing up in the right area.

    Actually, I didn’t figure anything out and there wasn’t a true fix. I just deleted a bunch of comments — most of these comments were suggestions on possible ways to fix the comment problem — and none of them included important info.

    Please let me know if the comments continue to act weird.

    • good job NLME, seems to be working again!!!

    • Still not getting posts : ((((((

56. @Lonnie @comment 27 –

    “The tan bag, presumably empty, could just as easily have been blown north by the wind. So I wouldn’t place much faith in it as a marker. Obviously, for the bag to wind up this far from the store, TM had to have carried something in it. He would not have simply carried an empty bag along if he’d removed it’s contents. In fact, when he ran, he might have lost his grip on the bag, or it’s contents spilled on the ground, forcing him to come back north to get it.”

    The problem for me is I can’t think of any reason to explain how the bag and the can become detached. The can was in the bag when Trayvon Martin left the store, right? How did the can end up in Trayvon Martin’s hoodie pocket and the bag discarded on the ground? If someone wanted to free up their hands, wouldn’t they put both the bag and its contents in the pocket? Why ewould the separation of the can and the bag occur at that location (in his own back yard) since he presumably continued to carry the can in the bag nearly 1.8 miles? Remember, George Zimmerman said on the recorded police dispatch call “he’s got something in his hands.”

    Why was there blood on the Skittles that were originally in Trayvon Martin’s pocket? Who’s blood was it? Was there blood or other DNA on the 7-11 bag that Trayvon Martin was carrying his Arizona juice can in? Did anybody check?

    Admittedly, it crossed my mind that the 7-11 bag blew away to the location found. But, like I said, I can’t think of any scenario where the breeze of any wind would detach a can from its bag under the slight wind/weather conditions of that night.

    • Oh yeah, almost forgot.. If George Zimmerman frisked Trayvon Martin and got blood on the Skittles when he reached in his pocket and then stuffed the Arizona can into Trayvon Martin’s pockets, Zimmerman has yet again tainted the evidence. The prosecution needs to find out why this was done if he did it and also release the results of the tests for blood and dna on the Skittles and 7-11 bag.

      • Common

        How the can of tea and 7-11 bag became separated with tea ending up in Trayvon’s pocket has been a ‘bone of contention’ for me ever since the first evidence dump with the bag laying in the grass, and EMT reports having removed the can before lifting his hoodie to place monitor leads on him.

        I’ve posted previously that I think during GZs attempt to detain Trayvon:
        1) he either swung and struck GZ in the nose with it, it dropped and he was able to recover the tea and place in his pocket.
        2) it was knocked/snatched from his hand by GZ when he grabbed Trayvon and afterwards, during the ‘frisk’, he saw the can an placed in his pocket. Remember GZ making statement that he thought Trayvon had something hard in his hand while being beaten nearly to death, to explain his spreading Trayvon’s hands apart. Which not sure why that added blurb, except to explain away DNA he would’ve left, otherwise, the can couldn’t have been the ‘hard’ object, since it was later found in hoodie pocket, not to mention it would’ve been damaged in the attack.

    • the was talk of an argument and loud voices so they may have been scuffling prior to the final wrestle on the grass. If George was trying to restrain Trayvon maybe the bag was dropped at some stage, and he may have just quickly picked up the drink before the conflict started again.

      • Indeed, Jo –

        The scuffle could have caused the bag to drop, but why why would the bag’s contents mysteriously end up in Trayvon Martin’s hoodie pocket?

        When you’re in a scuffle, you don’t pick stuff up unless the scuffle is over.

        • it’s interesting that George doesn’t seem to have many friends…he has casual aquaintances who think he is wonderful but none of them are close to him. The one close friend who has been to his house 50 times is the guy who was a deputy and works for homeland security and teaches him how to use a gun. It’s like the teacher and the student.

        • sorry i put the above comment in the wrong place, i wasn’t responding to anyone, it should have been a new post.

        • Lots of good questions raised here [and I’ve read ahead a bit so don’t go thinking I’m all that smart. ] But, tchoupi points out below that there wasn’t much wind (he’s done a weather analysis which I read/viewed). The graph/plot of the rain seems to say that these events took place under heavy rain conditions??? My guess is that GZ should have been running back to his truck, not walking.

          Of course the bag would be saturated with water, making it hard to move, and a paramedic has owned up to putting the can back in TM’s hoodie pouch.

          So, the only real mystery is how did the can come out of the bag? I don’t see him carrying a bag for .7 miles, only to discard it close to the house.
          I can think that the bag caught water and that would be why he decided to dump it. You don’t want to bring a dripping bag into the house if you don’t have to.

          I’ll do without the “scuffle” however, there’s no good evidence of it at all!
          All we have is GZ’s testimony of it, and we know that he is prone to make things up to serve himself. But, young, mild manner, non-violent teens aren’t likely to attack an adult physically at all! Old, slightly built adults have no fears of challenging children and teens, who do not openly exhibit threatening behavior. While teens and children meet such challenges with subservient compliance! Certainly a teen who uses polite language as “Please and Thank You”, with store clerks, isn’t likely to be one to exhibit the kind of behavior that would presage a proclivity to attack adults. In short, Trayvon is no gang banger, no thuggish child, no bully, no braggart and does not bluster!

          While GZ on the other hand, has shown that he’s ready, willing and able to mount a physically combative and offensive assault on a stranger, who he perceives as offending a friend of his. In other words, he has no fear of being physically combative with strangers, even without any way to assess their combat skills. He is able and willing to engage a person who is approximately his equal in age and size (the policeman), in fisticuffs!

          While TM has no combat skills at all! None demonstrated or learned of anywhere in the narratives about him.

          So, what this adds up to — in light of TM not having any trace on hands that supposedly contacted GZ with such force that his nose was broken — is that any such claim is a lie! If any contact was made between the two, it would have been GZ attempting to assert his authority! Not Trayvon defending himself! TM would only resort to using words, to attempt to delay or fend off any attack. “Why are you following me for?” Was a pleading, not a challenge! A hope against hope that there might be an answer, other than the obvious one, that GZ was this bigger older and threatening ill intended stranger.

        • yep Trayvon was a good kid, but George could have tried to grab his top or wrist to detain him, trayvon breaks away, or tries too. That’s a scuffle right there. It did not happen the way Zimmerman said, that is for sure, so it’s possible the witnesses that heard arguing and saw figures were correct…hell maybe zimmerman tried to grab the bag to check for stolen goods..who knows.

          • I’ve read elsewhere that there is a possibility of more than one struggle which could account for the reasons why the items are seperated. Could it be that GZ attempted to restrain Trayvon at some point and he got away? I believe that would make GZ angry enough to shoot when he caught up to him a second time. It would also make sense if you add the movement described by some witnesses. Is it possible that the two struggles happened not very far from one another? GZ attempts a grab and hold, Trayvon escapes the hold and picks up the can (maybe?) (if it fell and came out of its bag), a few feet later GZ attempts the grab and hold again? He’d probably be even more pissed the second time around and even more convinced that Trayvon is a criminal. He would wanna make sure Trayvon didn’t get away again since he now sees Trayvon is capable of it. I was thinking he could have drawn his weapon at that time…. But I’ve always believed that he had his weapon out way before then… Even before he got out if his car.

            • Zimmerman’s credentials have been “hiding in plain sight” from us:

              “He is a combat ready professional barroom bouncer and experienced
              security “muscle” man. Meaning that he was hired and paid for his
              strength and ability to engage in combat with all manner of abusive
              adult strangers of varying martial skills.”

              Does anyone think he’d be hired in that capacity, if it was believed, that a unarmed, underweight teenager could so overcome him, that he could not even begin to mount a defense?

              Does anyone think he’d even apply for such a job, if he believed or knew that he could not effectively respond to an attack by a youth?

              Did he get fired for being too meek and unable to physically engage when required?

              Or did he get fired for physically engaging when not required or over doing it with his response?

              Doesn’t this tell us that this man is confident of his abilities to engage adult members of the general public in combat? If so, then why is he trying to portray himself as “milquetoast” mild? Far too gentle a person to respond in kind to an assault on his person? As a person with so few martial options, that his gun is his only possible defense?

              Who here would bet on an untrained teenager, in a fight with an experienced professional bar bouncer? If so, please explain this thinking.

      • The can of tea may have fallen out of the bag when Trayvon ran down the back entrance of the dogwalk. Assuming this happened, he stopped and realized it had fallen out so he went back to pick it up. Dee Dee says in her interview that Trayvon went back and it was then he told her the man (creep) was behind him and following him again.

        • In Florida, you can be charged as an adult at almost any age, Florida is one of 18 states that allow this. In fact the DA in this case Angela Corey is involved in another case, of 12 year old Cristian Fernandez. So either 17 or 18 it is possible if charges were filed GZ could be charged as an adult.

        • @John W, I’m not sure why you bring up the Florida statutes in response to my comment on the can of iced tea. Was you comment mistakenly posted to me?

    • What is also strange is that GZ never mentions a cold can or that he felt something hard on his stomach whileTrayvon was on his stomach per his statement. They found the can in his front pocket of the hoodie, when they tried CPR.

      • Exactly! But how did it get there for them to find? The pro-zimmerman’s say Trayvon Martin stuffed his pockets to prepare for attacking zimmerman. I find it hard to believe he would discard the bag instead of stuffing both the bag and its contents into the hoodie pocket. I can’t see detaching a bag from its contents to prepare for a fight. I can see frisking/searching somebody and quickly discarding “irrelevant” 7-11 bags.

        • @CSFC

          I don’t know why TM would discard the bag instead of shoving both in his pocket, but I did think he might have done that in preparation to run and/or fight if need be. I’m thinking in terms of DeeDee’s statement, I guess, where he is being followed; I suppose I picture TM seeing this weird ass dude that’s just been following him all over the damn place, so he gets nervous then starts to walk away from GZ as GZ starts coming in the same direction then possibly discards the bag and stuffs the can in his sweatshirt just before asking GZ what’s going on thinking if this dude doesn’t give me a straight answer then I’m going to need to run or fight. Maybe the bag was wet and didn’t want to put the wet bag in his shirt with other items.

        • @ question everything trust no one [below]

          I don’t think that Trayvon would fail to omit from his talk with DeeDee, that he was prepared to fight, or that he believed that to be an option. People, especially kids who can and do fight, are not shy about broadcasting their prowess. Think about it, he’s trying to impress his girlfriend that he has enough courage not to run, but he won’t tell her that he thinks fighting is an option he has?

          That he does run shows he’s in fear! You don’t plan to fight with strangers you fear, especially if you’re not a fighter. We don’t have a series of schoolyard fights that TM is constantly involved in. Which is usually the case with kids who believe that they can settle differences with fighting.
          So, the evidence all points the other way, towards GZ dominating!

          In that light, GZ might be concerned about what the bag might contain, and want to examine it. If so, he takes the bag away and dumps the contents, while holding onto TM so he can’t run. When TM attempts to reach for the bag, GZ thinks he’s trying to pull away and yanks him back by the clothes really hard. This causes TM to collide with GZ and they both go down with TM on top. John tries to embellish this as MMA fighting. But once John exits the scene, GZ is angry at being knocked down, he stands up and draws his weapon while TM is getting up off the ground. TM sees the weapon and begins screaming for help, GZ panics and fires!

          GZ has a lot to panic about, if TM lives, he tells a story that has GZ following and threatening with a firearm. That, as GZ well knows, portends a few years in jail. While SYG offers him a way out of this terrible situation, all it requires is that he be attacked first! But, it doesn’t kick in unless he pulls the trigger and TM doesn’t survive to counter his story!

          I wouldn’t bet against him having discussed such hypotheses with FT and MO over those months as NW Captain. So, he knows that having impulsively drawn his gun, puts him in danger of facing severe criminal charges if TM survives. TM’s death is his only way out of this mess he created so foolishly.

          So, that’s the take I’m getting.

    • Not much wind during the events. Instead, there was enough rain to load the bag and pin it to the ground pretty quickly (assuming the bag wasn’t wet yet from the rain it accumulated from the 7-11).

      Check the weather: http://i.imgur.com/ynw8Mh.png

      • Right. The bag probably didn’t move much, but its travels are anything but conclusive. How does the Arizona can get out of the bag and into Trayvon Martin’s pocket for the SPD to find? Trayvon Martin left the 7-11 with the can in a bag and George Zimmerman said “he’s got something in his hands” (presumably what’s in his hands is a bag with the contents purchased from the 7-11) although George Zimmerman implies otherwise.

      • My theory from the previous evidence dump was that Trayvon swung the bag, with the tea can in it, at GZ. The can may have torn through the bag (if it has a hole in it). During the break in the arguement, Trayvon put the can, (and his earphones?), back in his pockets.

        • that’s also my theory!

      • My original theory was that TM ditched carrying it in the bag in case he had to run again or in case he needed to fight.

    • TM may have used the empty bag to keep he cell phone dry against the rain. I wonder if there was a receipt in the bag…. for skittles and a sugary drink?

      What’s interesting to me about the tan bag / Arizona Ice Tea brand drink is that in order to walk so far with it, TM very likely would carry it in his hand or in the hoodie pocket and not in the bag since the handle of the bag cuts into your hand after a while. And when GZ describes TM passing his car, he says he’s got something in his waistband, as though it were suspicious behavior. Trayvon was likely holding on to the can so he could walk fast without it banging into his body and falling out or annoying him.

      IMO GZ describes a punch to the nose that likely happened 40-50 feet south of the T, that “knocked him backwards into the grass/ at that point” etc – these are the first three things he said about the punch:

      “I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time”
      “as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass.”
      “and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…”

      But north of there is the tan bag and the lighted keychain flashlight. These seem to say there was some activity elsewhere, but what? We can’t really know, but I put almost NO store in George’s version.

      TM seems to have spoken first in both GZ and DeeDee’s memories, but getting a flashlight shined in your direction might have prompted the response from TM.

      • GZ is a proven accomplished liar!
        GZ is also a certified person with better than average combat skills, as evidence by his being hired to do combat when needed, with strangers of uncertain skills. His employer would only hire him, if he could be assured that GZ possessed the capacity to overcome and/or handle himself in most physical encounters! A bar owner would know that you can’t always count on the aggressor to be drunk and disadvantaged. He would want to be assured that GZ could reasonably handle himself under a wide range of possible assaults. Apparently GZ succeeded at this several times for several employers. If anything, he was too aggressive, not less!

        So, then, this is the combat ready and capable adult male, who is claiming to have been so totally disabled, by an attack waged by a young, not-combat-ready male with no training. And yet, GZ says he was powerless to prevent the attack from escalating to a point where he feared for his life!

        Pure Hogwash!!! Mild mannered youths with no combat training of any kind and no fight experience, will not be able to bring adult male bar bouncers and/or “security muscle men” to within an inch of their lives! Anyone who believes such has already taken leave of their senses! GZ is, therefore, certified as “combat ready”.

        Then add in the lack of GZ trace on TM’s hands and you must realize that GZ’s story of being attacked is purest hocum! Or, do they really hire “Mary Poppins” types for bar bouncers? Hahaha.

        Of course, this little tidbit of evidence has been hiding from us in plain sight, behind the phrases used to describe it. It didn’t occur to me, until I suddenly came to examine what would go into becoming a bar bouncer or “security muscle”. That’s when you realize there are “gate keepers” to such employment. Those “gate keepers” have to be convinced that the person to be hired can, in fact, handle themselves, in a wide variety of physical altercations that might present.

        If you’re prospective employer, should think of you as too soft to handle yourself, and/or able to quickly suppress physical disturbances with in kind action, you will not be hired in that capacity! You not only need combat skill, but you need nerve and self confidence in the face of trouble. Bouncers are strictly screened for those qualities! So that even if a weakling passes, he’s still more of a match for the average citizen.

        GZ is peddling pure rubbish, hardly a wonder that MOM doesn’t want to go before a jury! But the SP will, far from offering a plea, go for a jury, because that holds the possibility that they’ll get 1st degree!

        On top of the other lies and false materials the defense is submitting, I don’t think they’ll get past GZ’s combat qualification evidence.

        • Omg, I had not thought of that Lonnie. Excellent points and you are so right, Zimmerman was no weakling. He is a chameleon who changes his colors when it is convenient.

          • You and me both, as well as plenty of other people, have been looking at this for months and it’s been “hiding in plain sight” from us all!

            I get the feeling that if this was part of the main discussion back before the bond hearing, GZ would probably never have gotten any bail at all.

            It’s simply ludicrous to think that anyone who would be hired as a bouncer, would be so weak and defenseless, as not to be able to handle a teen.

            I remember speaking with a bar owner, his idea was that if you didn’t get a bouncer who was really a top flight fighter, you opened yourself up to lawsuits, since the longer it takes to gain control of a situation, the worse things get. Worse yet is, if the bouncer and fighter are evenly matched, the level of desperation rises, meaning they’re both at risk of doing some pretty serious things to one another. The owner will be responsible for that damage!

            So they look for Navy Seals if possible, professional boxers, wrestlers and other highly skilled combatants like ex police, military and special forces people. So GZ is not in the company of tepid people, nor can he be one himself and still get the job.

            • Actually it has been pointed out at least twice in my speculations that GZ is the bouncer nick-named “Tugboat”. Would be interesting to know what that name refers to. Is he just big and heavy and grabs a person and pulls them to the exit? Had he grabbed TM and pulled him to the top of the T? I still wonder if somehow he was going to bring TM to his make believe “Squad Car” out in the light, for the cops to see the fish he had caught.

            • Just as you say, I too remember that at several times, we’ve nearly all mentioned that GZ held a job as a bouncer, but when we did, we weren’t applying as evidence of combat readiness and skills, or with any attention to how obtaining such a job, would tend to certify them. Hence the speculation about “the fight” and “who threw the first punch” persisted and continued. Even while we felt TM’s lack of skills and mild demeanor was an indication that he would not act that way. But, using these things to point out that GZ was a rouge actor.

              Had these jobs been inspected for their ability to certify that GZ was combat ready, etc., the idea that TM might have fought with GZ becomes absurd!
              The idea that TM could have been effective in any martial contest, is relegated to fantasy land.

              But, my point is that the real nature of the beast, was hiding in plain sight behind the job titles, when the truth was in the job descriptions. You hear that he was a bouncer who mistreated a woman, you say “sure, bouncers can over reach and GZ probably did!” Then you move on, without making the connection that GZ had to have and display combat skills to get the job. Less, apply that directly to his claims about his own helplessness, when assaulted by a lightweight youth with no fight training at all.

              We all had the same information, but we took it in the least effective direction.

        • Lonnie

          You bring up a very compelling point! I would agree with you re: “hiding in plain sight”. The fact GZ possibly has had the very same combat, martial arts training, that they claimed Trayvon had after John’s bogus claim of MMA style punches.

          • Funny, GZ doesn’t strike me as a nimble ninja. He was however a lot heavier and more intimidating back in his bouncer days. Couple that with his ego, and you have a formula for a guy who’s willing to confront….

            • Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to imbue GZ with ninja or navy seals level skills. They would, of course, help a bouncer get work, but that level of skill isn’t necessary. What is needed is size, since that is intimidating enough to quench most battles before they even get started. But also in large measure you need confidence! Since by exuding confidence you intimidate and thereby suppress many urges to get physical. Being a bouncer is more about keeping things as civil as possible first and foremost. Bouncers who over react get fired, because that puts the establishment at risk of law suit, needlessly.

              But, if you’re going to accept a job that portends you’ll have no choice at times, but to engage in physical actions, you’ll want to be confident that your abilities are at least a match to the average opponent you expect to encounter.
              That’s where your confidence comes from, knowing that you’ll very likely be able to handle whatever trouble appears.

              So, GZ has and idea that most people will not overcome him easily, and these people are most likely going to be adults, and many of them of equal size weight, height and age as himself, or close to it.

              Meaning that when he is following a teenager, he’s going to feel overly confident, as he should, since he’s able to match adults, he has no reason to fear teens. Most especially teens who do not display discipline and coordination in their movements, that a martially trained teenager would.
              Hang in front of a karate school for a while, and you’ll be able to tell very easily those who’ve had training from those who haven’t. They carry themselves differently.

              Now look at the reenactment video of GZ waving his hands at the point just after the claimed nose punch, as he tries to explain how he moved south.
              Look at his stance. Do you see it? Look at the smoothness of the motions as he “swats flies”, and look at the body balance as he steps along while doing it. Do you see the coordination? Do you see the forcefulness in the motions of his arms and hands? Now try to picture TM trying to assault him while GZ is doing that. The picture doesn’t fit! TM would be toast if he tried, not that he would even be thinking of it.

            • Hi Lonnie, I wasn’t making fun of your analysis with the ninja comment, just trying to make a light joke. Per the re-enactment, I don’t actually see anything that tells me how good of a fighter he’d be, nor do we have enough footage/knowledge of TM to know how he’d be in a fight either. You are right in that a bouncer has to have physical confidence, and per his ex-coworker he had a tendency to just flip sometimes. However, when someone is hyped up on neurochemicals due to the fight or flight response, anything is possible and it’s absolutely plausible that TM had the better of GZ for some part of the fight at least. I have always believed that TM fought long enough to keep a crazy guy down and only when he started letting up, he sat back never seeing the gun until GZ fumbled for it, pulled it out and shot. That would be of course if the story of his gun being in the holster the whole time were true.

            • To be sure, it is difficult, if not impossible to prove, what a person can or cannot do. Which is why a “jury of peers” is the final finder of facts! At some point we humans have to turn off the computers, put away the calculators and other machines, put our chins in our palms, close our eyes and go hmmm… now let’s see! Because many things that make sense to computers and machines, don’t make any sense to us humans.

              Now, tell a jury about how a person, generally qualified to be hired as a bar bouncer, as security muscle and such. Then show them what kind of life TM led and what kind of fights, if any, he’d have experienced. Pretty much as I’ve tried to do in some detail. Then let them use that information to weigh the likelihood of GZ’s conduct, if he had actually been assaulted by a blow to the nose! A computer cannot assess that because, a computer can’t be punched in it’s nose! Even while a human, who has never been punched in the nose, can use the pain of a strained ankle as a gauge, to attempt to quantify just how helpless pain should render someone, who believed the situation they’re in was life threatening.

              Yeah! You’re gonna say “What??? He just reels along for fifty feet, stumbling in confusion? Allowing his deadly and frightening assailant free reign? And that assailant is going to simply stand back an not press the attack to his best advantage, going up against a bigger, older and heavier opponent as he was?

              Excuse me if I say this sounds more like they were dancing Swan Lake, than two people locked some frightening and potentially deadly life and death struggle. I mean, just picture yourself on a jury, musing about some 168 lb 17 yo straddling a 200 + lb 28 yo adult male bar bouncer, and that bouncer doing nothing at all to dislodge him or able to defend himself at all. So that, it comes to pass that the only resistance the barroom bouncer can mount is to resort to using a fire arm? Gee, did he carry a firearm in those bars? Do bar’s issue firearms to their bouncers? I mean, shouldn’t they? If they expect bouncers to confront people more able than 17 year old males.

              So the story of the fight is not going to make very good sense to the jurors! And that’s before they add in the capacity the defendant has to lie to the public, the judge and the court. So it will be the facts that can be established against the likelihood of the story GZ will tell. If and when the facts don’t support the defense narrative, the jurors will have no choice but to go with the facts. George Zimmerman is TOAST!!!

              The only real question is how many more people will he take down with him?

          • Thank you… And what’s even worse for GZ’s lie is, an important component in becoming a bouncer is the level of confidence in your combat skills you display. Obviously, a person who isn’t confident of their abilities to handle a fight, isn’t going to be hired, since that portends unwanted overreacting.

            In the meantime, Trayvon has no experience with fighting, there’s no evidence that he has engaged his peers in fights, less, attempted to bring an adult to heel. So, how could he have any confidence at all, that any blow he might strike, would not bring swift, severe and irresistible repudiation? You don’t throw a punch at someone, without good reason to hope that your punch is going to effectively intimidate your opponent. TM has no way to know, how or where to strike any such blow. The only view he’d have is of movies, where his first strike would initiate a battle, he’s unprepared to wage.

            While he can’t even guess that a nose strike is going to disable his opponent, he has, from movies, to believe that GZ will then move to thrash him soundly. Thus GZ’s size, weight and age advantage has to be enormously intimidating to TM. Which is why males without combat skills and/or knowledge, point to the size difference of opponents, because they don’t understand how such differences are to be overcome.

            So, TM’s lack of confidence in his untested martial skills, makes it extremely unlikely that he even thought of physical actions as an option.

            GZ is simply playing on the media fed idea that all young black males are combat ready, because they live in a violent world. But that sort of “violent world” is actually absent TM’s life story! Not so for GZ’s life story, since he is actually holding himself out to be hired for his ability to do combat. Which makes him a professional combatant.

            Now, go back and look at the absurd story he weaves! Attributing unaccustomed language to TM, and a combat confidence that has no reason for it’s existence. All while he is in possession of these same characteristics himself.

            Why would TM reach for his gun? Has TM any reason to believe he knows how to operate it? For example, does he realize guns have safeties on them?
            How will he know that the gun is actually loaded, or otherwise ready for use?
            In fact, he’d be completely mystified by it, and frightened of it’s owner to boot!

            All of which is why the evidence bears out that TM never put his hands on GZ, it’s just to high a hurdle to overcome for the many reasons I’ve enumerated. All TM can manage is a pleading “why are you following me for?” temporizing! Hoping against hope that the answer to that question is not a sinister one.

            Meanwhile GZ has all the reason in the world to be confident. Not just of his combat skills, but of his abilities to muster support for whatever defense he contrives. He knows the police who will be there to investigate, he knows the law, he knows something of police procedure, and he has his father a former magistrate, and he has the Osterman Resource! Not a bad start for a guy who has tracks to cover up.

      • willisnewton says: “TM very likely would carry it in his hand or in the hoodie pocket and not in the bag since the handle of the bag cuts into your hand after a while.”

        So glad you bring up the point about the ‘bag cuts into your hand”. I’ve often wondered if that’s what could’ve caused the tiny cut on Trayvon’s finger. I don’t recall the ME reporting how new/old the cut was.

        • Those bags they give out are way too long for a single large can of iced tea in the bottom. As you walk it keeps swinging up against you and probably keeps hitting against your thighs or knees. Very uncomfortable and it’s hard to control the swinging. What people attempt to do is, wrap the excess length of the bag, from the handles, around the palm, in an attempt to shorten the bag and stop it from swinging. But this, eventually impedes circulation in the hand, so this only works for a short time.

          After a few minutes of such discomfort, one is looking for a better way to carry the load, and usually this means putting the can, wrapped in it’s bag, in a pocket if possible. I know because I’ve often carried supermarket type bags with one large item in it. It’s a nuisance to say the least. What I try to do is, I tie the handles into a knot, or tie the neck of the bag into a knot, to shorten the bag and keep it from swinging. Then I hang the bag from my wrist, so I can grip the neck of the bag by the knot.
          But that comes from year of experience. I doubt TM has had to do this many times, enough that he developed any strategy for it.

          As a rule you don’t discard the bag, since it can be useful, most especially in the rain. A thought that stays in the back of your mind, even though you probably don’t employ it, unless something else happens, like coming across something you need to prevent from getting wet.
          So, he probably took the skittles out of the bag, since they’re easily carried in a pocket. Then he wrapped the bag tightly around the can and tried to stuff that in the hoodie pocket. Where it probably had a precarious perch. The least bit of inattention to it and it falls out.

        • Lonnie

          You describe that perfectly. I’m sure those of us that have had same experience you describe would agree. One correction, if I may, the skittles he immediately placed in his pocket at 7-11, so it would make sense those were found in his pocket.

          • Yeah, he placed the skittles in his pocket that early on, shows that he knew it would be uncomfortable carrying them in the bag. That shows he’s handled these bags before under different circumstances. Often when there’s very little in them they’re uncomfortable to handle and he knew it. My guess is, he knew that at some point, he’s going to want to put that bag with the iced tea in it, in a pocket. So he’s preparing for that by making the package smaller.
            I’d guess he’d keep the iced tea in the bag, in his hand, until he had to dial the phone? Or enjoy that cigar? That would work fine as long as he was standing still, when he started moving he have to constantly tend it. Or it would simply drop out.

        • In the 7-11 vid he puts the skittles in his pocket THEN asks for a bag for the drink. Either to avoid putting a cold can in a pocket, or to GET THE BAG, eg to put on the phone etc if it starts to rain again. Cold cans start to warm up and they make themselves wet on the outside, not nice if that soaks into a thin T-shirt either.

          Still I think he may have had it in his hand when GZ first grabbed for him, and he took a swing with it. And the bag broke and the can fell out.

57. Did they released any additional jail calls?

    • They are released. Haven’t seen a good link for them yet.

      • Okie dokie going to look for them

      • All 145 Calls

        http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmerman-jailhouse-calls/george-zimmerman-jailhouse-calls-21-30-released-7162012-audio/

        • With a summary!!!

        • Thanks, Loree. 🙂

        • awsome..thanks for this!

        • You da woman, Loree! 🙂

        • Loree, calm down! Are you reading the website or just following via email? I’m am replying to your original post about jailhouse calls on July 16 as a test to see if you got this. It looks to me like you got 3 or 4 replies thanking you for the post on the 16th, but your post was #57. As of July 18 in the evening, we’re up to #88. There have been a lot of long comments on other topics as well as jailhouse calls. If you want to renew a discussion, you’ll have to join a newer thread or post a fresh comment as people are not going back up that far to read yours from 2 days ago.

58. I totally support this blog and all the wonderful info being produced… For those interested on the site thegrio.com they have a a story on Omara titled \”Zimmerman’s lawyer seek a ‘chat’ with conservative bloggers?\’ Posted today very interesting didn\’t think attorneys could request chats from bloggers to get in site on a case.. just wondering.. thanks wisenustud

    • Thank you for visiting and leaving a comment!

      My first reaction — Sounds like an attempt to scrape up some cash from the conservative blogosphere?

      I don’t think GZ’s legal team will come knocking here. You know, where people are analyzing evidence before and/or as soon as it becomes available instead of just saying a grown man has the right to murder an innocent unarmed teenager after sustaining minor injuries during a wrestling match/scuffle.

    • hello wise, yes someone from the conservative nuthouse sent O’Mara an email and posted his reply saying he was happy to meet up. We had a bit of a laugh over it but thought he was just trying to keep them happy since they are paying his huge salary. He does use many of the same out of date arguments that many of them use but that might be more to do with the fact that the defense don’t seem to have a lot of good material to work with.

      Thanks for posting about thegrio, i haven’t seen anywhere that has reported on O’Mara getting council from bloggers yet so i’m going to go and have a look now. Thanks

      • excellent article, the only thing it missed was how they were trying to talk in code like “nudge nudge wink wink it won’t look good for the defence if people know he is talking to us nudge nudge wink wink” so they wanted to keep it all secret squirrel, lol

        • Now its been reported on thegrio.com that” Conservative blog Zimmerman’s lawyer sought ‘chat’ with outs Witness 9″…
          Has anyone read this… sad so sad they gave the w9 and her families info…
          How many more lives will this case destroy before gz has his final day in court…

        • @wisenupoet

          I’ve been reading things from around the net from Zimmerman supporters/CT that claims W9 is his cousin CM/CMJ (I’m sure as hell not posting her name since she clearly didn’t want to be named, and I don’t even know if there is truth to their claims.), but they are saying she shopped her story around for money (blahblahblah) and that she has DUI/drug convictions, etc.

          I put no credence in anything I hear from CT. NONE. However, if this is indeed the woman and she has alcohol/drug history, substance abuse is nothing to make light of and is often common with victims of sexual abuse.

        • oh my God, they even put her picture up. Once again Zimmerman supporters are going to blame the victim. Pricks.

          • Mother expletive. Seriously? No, seriously — posting a picture of an anonymous witness that reportedly suffered sexual abuse? W.T.F?!?

            For the first and maybe only time ever, please don’t cite a link as I’d rather not send them any traffic to the picture from this blog.

        • @jo

          I’m not surprised at all. There is no certainty it is even the right person/relative considering the first pic they ever tried to claim was DeeDee was some light skinned black chick with long hair who doesn’t even look a damn thing like the pic going around now as DeeDee. CT is essentially tabloid trash/right wing gossip rag. Whatevaaaaaa. It’s the everybody’s lying, but GZ game (you know, unless you support him then undoubtably you’re telling the truth).

        • Obviously. First thing they were going to do is tear the witness to shreds. Even if all/lot/most/some of what they come up with is untrue, it will devalue her testimony. It may even cause her to refuse to give it.

          And true or not, there have been way too many cases of long-ago sexual misconduct being brought in to smear a person, so that just about ALL such claims have been made suspect. It is by far the easiest type of misconduct to allege untruly, as there is always the “I was too ashamed to tell anyone” excuse for why nobody ever heard of it before.

          So, true or not, this witness is not helping anyone, least of all herself, by coming forward with a “character” statement that has no relevance to the case. She’s just succeeded in further traumatising herself, giving GZ’s supporters heaps of ammunition to claim this is “another Duke case”, bringing him plenty more money, and distracting everyone from the case in hand — which has precious little to do with what he did at age 8 or 11.

          Her testimony does not go an inch closer to proving he followed Trayvon or proving “depraved mind” — which has to be at the time of the killing, not months or decades earlier. Even having committed proven murder before is not EVIDENCE that an individual committed the specific new murder being investigated.

          And it goes no closer to proving GZ is a racist than TM’s “grills” prove he was a thug.

        • Copy and paste would have been easier.

        • jo

          Lol! Secret Squirrel…here’s a few more old school comic and tv one liners: “heavenstomurgatroid”, Holy____, Batman!” (feel free to fill in the blank with one of GZs most ridiculous quotes), “Lucy, you got some ‘splanin to do”. When MOM(lol) took this case, I held him in high regard. As the case proceeds, not so much so. IMO, when all is said and done, he will not be looked at in the favorable light he imagined this case would put him in.

      • @ aussie – I’m sorry but you are wrong.

        A history of abusing others is a history of victim objectification. I’m sorry that this issue is uncomfortable for you and you have gone on the offensive BUT abusing another child is a WARNING FLAG for other anti-social behavior up to and including murder. What we are dealing with today. I feel that your lack of knowledge about sexual abuse is wrongly influencing your need to push this under the rug. Because this is a complex issue, I’ve still not responded to your mitigating initial post. I want to take my time and will probably write a full blog about why ZIMMERMAN ABUSING HIS COUSIN ties directly to ZIMMERMAN murdering Trayvon. All of those who say this is inadmissible are being fooled by the defense. His abuse (most likely) and abuse of others is key to who he was on 2.26.

        Now some of you are deep into the evidence and that is great. I applaud you. Others of us are into the more “soft” aspects of this case, the Why and the motives. I believe there is room on this blog for both. But at the end of the day, the best schematic is not going to win this case. Juries and people are irrational and if you don’t fill in the gap with the “soft” stuff along with the hard evidence, you are taking a risk.

        If nothing before 2.26 is relevant, then all of the other discussions that we have had would also be beat back as vigorously. Why the difference with the issue of him abusing his cousin? And if nothing before 2.26 is relevant then we have a long way to go in proving him guilty.

        The fact is and has been put forth, regardless if he was 8, this was no childhood game. The 6 year old resisted. She was afraid. Zimmerman also tried to hide it and lie about it at 8. That is not a childhood game, that is not experimenting. This is some severe acting out which would explain his need for control and his projecting of guilt onto all in adulthood, particularly against young black males. If you indeed do not believe he was ambushed out of nowhere, then you have to explain why he would act in such a manner towards a kid walking down the street. If you don’t believe his guilt over his sexual abuse of Witness9 and others was a factor in projecting guilt onto Trayvon, then you are lacking in a sound understanding of sexual abuse, personality disorders AND their role in criminality. Point blank, he is a sociopath and evidence of this behavior at 8 and continuing on is a factor. And if you think this case can be won just on evidence with no explanation of the WHY, then we are sunk because no jury is going to look at just the cold hard facts.

        • And Trayvon Martin is not on trial here for murder so his “grill” which is no way shape or form compares to sexual abuse of a weaker person is a false equivalence on multiple levels.

        • The equivalence is in the eagerness to see “proof” of something we are prejudiced to see… the story confirms what we want to believe so we accept it and exaggerate it without questioning. Someone else comes up with a story that goes against our preconceived ideas we reject it (eg all those people who say hes a nice guy). That is what the equivalence is.

          “He used to grope his cousin therefore he’s a killer” is just as wrong and ridiculous as “he wore a gold grill therefore he attacked GZ and broke his nose”.

          It does show being of bad character (if true) but that is not what he’s been charged with.

          Whether this woman was a victim before or not, she’s certainly making herself one now, with all the pro-GZ people ripping her to shreds. Which was to be 100% expected. Brave? courageous? foolhardy? deluded? who knows? Being a victim now again proves nothing about 10 or 15 years ago.

          Suddenly everyone is turning out to be experts on sexual abuse. And I’m told I know nothing about it. Okay, have it your way, what do you know about me? The “I know what it’s like therefore this other person is telling the truth” isn’t terribly logical thinking, either.

          A couple of points:
          1) 1 person says something it is not necessarily true, even if (a) it suits our prejudices and (b) they believe it to be true
          2) 1 person rings the police to say something bad about someone mentioned in the news which is not relevant — what she’s saying boils down to “I know he killed that kid because he’s black because he used to poke me when we were kids”. C’mon!
          3) kids constantly call out “mom! he’s pinching me Mom he’s pulling my hair Mom he won’t leave me alone”. So she’s not going to say that when he’s trying to finger her? under a blanket with other kids???? doesn’t get her own separate blanket next day? every year that they visit? C’mon!

          Being already bullying or predatory young in life may well be relevant to a person’s character. It is no evidence of MOTIVE in a killing. If someone comes forward with evidence that he used to stalk people he deemed suspicious, that would be a different matter.

          Attempts to demonise the guy are going to backfire big time. Exaggerations are already creeping in (a quick grope being referred to now as rape, for instance, the self-appointed experts should know the difference). They’ll backfire on the witness, backfire on the case, turn into a circus of who can blacken whose name more….. and just keep the money rolling in for the “defence fund”.

          I don’t like to see this blog degenerating into a character assassination site, there’s enough of those out there already. I’m sorry if some of you don’t see it this way, but to me this testimony is a sordid distraction, not a help.

        • aussie i’m just not understanding the issue. There is a pretty open dialogue here, most of it is pretty reasonable, there are a few assumptions or theories thrown around, most based on facts but of course everyone is here for their own reasons and with their own interests. But this was something that was released to the public, an interview that actually happened, and you want us to ignore it? Is that the issue? Because i’m not sure why this is such a sticking point for you after all the little details that have been talked about, headlight analysis, conspiracy theories, where cars are parked, kicking dogs etc and so on, why is it an issue for an actual piece of evidence to be discussed.

          I have not seen anyone here accuse anyone of rape, or even repeat the more descriptive acts that she described (until this post of yours). Perhaps you have seen them on other sites, but here i haven’t seen it. I have seen and participated in discussions of his character, how he seems to feel he can control younger people, how some of her account matches other things we’ve heard about George, but i don’t see where there has been any degeneration or demonising. Just discussion about the latest release that the judge agreed should become public knowledge. How are we to decide what is relevent to talk about and what is not? Who decides? We aren’t trying the case here, we talk about a lot of shit that wont be introduced in the trial, but legitimate discussion of actual evidence released is fair game IMHO or that is one mighty large elephant that is gonna park its butt in the middle of the room.

59. Why am I not surprised

    http://www.kalw.org/post/woman-accuses-george-zimmerman-molesting-her-years

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0716/George-Zimmerman-s-cousin-accuses-him-of-sexual-molestation

60. I can tell you one thing if it takes all of that to make a call from jail I wouldn’t be able to make but one call. Geez what a hassle. Did anybody feel like his wife is a bit nonchalant on the first call on axiom? she was like I don’t know why they took you to the court house, I wasn’t home. I guess we see she wasn’t hiding out that much to be out of the house, I thought they were held hostage in the house.

    • yeah how annoying was it. I haven’t listened to the calls yet, my kids are so damn loud that i gave up trying to hear before i’d even finished the first one.

      • I don’t have kids but this made me laugh.

61. did the FBI actually say Zimmerman was not racist or is that just what the media are reporting based on what Serino said? I can’t find it in the dump that they came to a conclusion unless i missed it somehow. Thanks

    • The FBI reports/summaries are just that, but a final conclusion was never rendered. It’s just the conclusion that is being drawn from those released documents. Who knows what information will come from further discovery.

      • thanks QETNO, I keep seeing reports that the FBI concluded he wasn’t racist but all i saw was a whole bunch of statements from people who hardly knew the guy.

    • Exactly! My understanding is that the FBI concluded the Sanford Police Department didn’t think Zimmerman was racist.

      This should have been taken with a grain of salt but the MSM ran with it? You’d think the FBI would require a correction/clarification the moment the story hit the wire.

62. princss6 comment on 7/16 @ 6:22
    “I think looking at a cold-blooded murder, a history of childhood sexual abuse is relevant in so many ways. Trayvon’s murder did not happen in a vacuum. There was a lead up and a build up to his murder and the depraved indifference the confessed murder displayed with others prior to 2.26 goes a long way in explaining why he was so aggressive with Trayvon. He has been victimizing others for a long time and that IS important and as the prosecution has said, if he tries to play the Saint George game, Witness 9, a brave survivor who should not have her story discounted, will be there to rebutt it.

    This all goes to the psychological profile of this murderer.”

    I was reading comments posted on MSNBC and I thought this poster’s comment sums up what you say…

    You know nothing about trial strategy!!!! OR how things fit in. This brave woman corraborates the prosecution’s other witness from work, who both tell the same damn tale!!!! How George victimized them then used his goody goody image to intimidate them and conceal the evil deed behind his deceitful goody boy act to escape punishment or accountability. They corraborate the prosecutions case because Corey says George is doing the same thing in this case too, did evil and hiding it behind a good boy image. All this is relevent, admissable testimony and it corraborates the prosecutions case by showing George has a pattern throught his life of doing this shyt, then getting away with it because nobody believes he is bad. George Zimmerman is bad. He’s murdered someone this time -the system has had enough of his shyt.

    It shows George has a lifetime pattern of doing evil deeds victimizing people then using lies, deceit and a fake good boy image to deny and get away with it. If you knew how to fight a case or write a trial narrative for battle you’d know about establishing your character witnesses. You people don’t get it, it’s the prosecution that is putting on a brilliant display. But Omara gets it, that’s why his as$ is doing everything to postpone a trial.

    If there is no evidence against George -Let him take his ass to trial!!!! The prosecution’s case is brilliant. I see it developing, George will not escape just because nobody saw what he did. The prosecution is brilliantly going to show you all how to mastermind a case around that. Whew!!!! The prosecution is sharp!!!! George is toast, and listening to ric and you trust verify, you 2 have all these people on here blind. Time will tell

    • Hi Tina, i think the first paragraph is pretty spot on, thanks for posting this, its very interesting perspective because it’s not just what the guy does, it’s how he worms his way out of everything.

      • Bingo, Jo! And thank you Tina! The prosecution has to not only explain what he did but WHY he did it or there is reasonable doubt.

63. I wonder who Z is talking to when he admits that O’Mara knows about a $37,000 transfer through the Pay Pal account. This is on Tape 30 dated April 14. I don’t have a link. Here is the text of the conversatioin:

    Jailhouse calls released.
    1st bond hearing on 4/20/12
    This call was on 4/14/12 – talks about MOM knowing about fund transfer …

    GZ had been talking to his caller on the phone about MOM
    @ 4.43 mark in call

    GZ: I did tell him (MOM) that we tried to make one transfer of 37 and it got held up because it is over the 10, you know.

    Male: ah ah

    GZ: So he knows about that. um But he …

    Male: Does he know about the volume

    GZ: No

    Male: Ok

    GZ: And uh …

    Male: I’d like to keep that with us

    GZ: Ok I think so too.

    Call #30
    18555518
    2012
    4/14/2012 12:49:39
    (I got this inquiry from Professor Leatherman’s blog.)

    • I read its his brother on Miamihearld I believe…

      • At the end of call#30, zimmerman can be heard checking to see if “scott” is still on the line. I’ve read elsewhere that “scott” is ken and is also the brother-in-law.

        • I didn’t listen to the calls yet but a brother in law rented a car for Zimmerman before the arrest.

          The 2nd evidence dump failed to redact this last name (Wilson) on page 89.

        • Yes. That’s what this article said also.

          http://www.bradenton.com/2012/07/18/4117986/jail-call-defense-knew-about-hidden.html

    • Nice find! It’s a Miami Herald worthy story now…

      http://goo.gl/MZOyI

      Thank you — I’ll post to Update section when I wake up. 🙂

      Anybody know the repercussions for O’Mara lying to the court (if that ends up being the case)? Loss of license? Worse?

64. http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/zimmerman-jail-call-brother-raises-questions-about/nPwPz/

    Here is an article about O’Mara’s knowledge about the funds.

    • I think the person he was talking to was Scott, not his brother, but a friend. I believe this Scott person is also the same as “Ken” who was mentioned in the first 6 calls released that helped get his bond revoked. I have no doubt O’Mara knew there was a large sum of money, but probably chose to remain as blissfully ignorant as possible. Furthermore, I’d place a bet that whoever was advising GZ has some sort of connections to where he is knowledgable about the kind of thing GZ was doing with the money, and could get in big shit if his role is looked into further. That’s just me taking a wild stab in the dark, though. *shrug*

65. Here’s a story link to the last comment:
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/16/2898502_p2/jail-call-says-defense-attorney.html#disqus_thread

    O’Mara evidently was told about a $37,000 attempted transfer by George but didn’t want it presented in court because he was getting ready to declare George indigent.
    I wonder whether George said “37” to O’Mara instead of saying “thousands.” Maybe he continued to use his code, somehow thinking O’Mara would understand.
    I’m not trying to excuse O’Mara, but I am trying to understand how he could walk into this case and almost immediately knowingly lie in court. George and his secret accountant then kept the true total from O’Mara. This man made the mistake of not listening or not understanding or not believing. He had already decided that George’s life was ruined.

    But this does not look good for O’Mara. His own machinations seem to be exposed.
    What an exciting couple of days!

    • omara KNEW the amount, because saying 37 was OVER the limit for one transfer from paypal does anybody think paypal has a limit UNDER $37? of course with 100% certainty omara KNEW it was 37,000, in an honest world omara would lose his law license on this he participated in the LYING to the court and KNEW he was doing it……this claim of i have too much to lose to do that is LAME.

      • he was probably seeing $$ signs himself. He wasn’t thinking it was zimmermans money but instead he was thinking it’s his next pay cheque haha. He was probably planning on doing a shit load of overtime now that Georgie was rich!!

      • If someone says to a lawyer worth his salt “small amount”, his next question should be “how much is small?” “Small” is by comparison… to what? To what you have in your pocket? Or to your mortgage? Is it 100, 500, or 10,000, 40,000? Gee, even 10 million is small, if you’re comparing it to Buffet’s net worth!

        In this case, “small” turned out to be many tens of thousands of dollars! Now we can’t rely on O’Mara’s words, because he doesn’t want to know what’s being discussed!

66. I don’t know about this Mark Osterman, but you would think that as a former Sheriff Deputy, he would have alerted the police that they might want to check Zimmerman’s vehicle, rather than remove it from the scene?

    This man “knows the drill” so to speak, so he knows he’s thwarting the police investigation in some way, by helping Shellie remove GZ’s truck from the scene, without it being searched and recorded by the SPD.

    Since GZ said nothing about removing his truck in his communications, how do they know it’s around the scene, less, to go and remove it? This has to either be pre-planned behavior or something that only a person with MO’s creds/skill sets would think of, to the detriment and defeat of the official police investigation.

    I’m pretty sure that if GZ was not MO’s friend, MO would have pointed out to the police that they should be checking this vehicle. So what gives?

    • Morning (It’s early a.m. where I am, at least), Lonnie Starr.

      I don’t know why *anyone* would move something from a crime scene without asking! You make a good point, though, this Mark Osterman should have known that’s not something to do. I think there is more to come on this. I’m still not sure the relevance of the bank vid.

      • The bank vid seems to show MO at the bank, leaving about 6.40 p.m. (ATM video, he’s the last person on it, compare that image with pix of him leaving the court with GZ, in my link http://i.imgur.com/AMCW9.png).

        This puts him at Rinehart & Orlando around the same time Trayvon gets there, having left the 7-11 at 6.32.

        That puts him in the position of possibly having mentioned to GZ that he saw (someone suspicious) approaching the estate. In other words, back to an old theory of ours that GZ was tipped off, didn’t just accidentally happen to notice Trayvon at he short-cut. Which puts a whole different complexion on the “not following” denials.

        The never say why this video was taken into evidence. There’s a mention somewhere of someone being sent out to get video from nearby businesses just to see them, not looking for anything specific, maybe hoping for clues to the victim’s identity. This is how they got the 7-11 tapes, too, though they also had a 7i-11 receipt to prompt them to get that one.

        =============
        The car? it was some 200 ft away. At what distance does something cease being “the crime scene”? there was nothing to suggest a vehicle had been used in the commission of a crime or in the shooting incident. They didn’t even know until hours later he’d driven there, not walked.

        Should they have taped off his house as well?

        Has anyone yet come up with a LIKELY explanation for what might be in the vehicle that would make it urgent to remove it?

        • If the Ridgeline was pointing east on the wrong side of the road as Zimmerman indicated in his reenactment, it would have stuck out like a sore thumb and should have definitely been taped off. If the Ridgeline was pointing west, maybe nothing seemed out of the ordinary.

          HOWEVER, Officer Mike Bernosk ran the plates (page 3 of the dump) and received confirmation at least one nearby vehicle was registered to the shooter. Immediately — as in, without any sort of hesitation — the vehicle should have been taped off.

          Anybody know where the cops parked? Or, did they park in the street on both sides of the path?

        • Going on various TV footage from the night, the cops and emergency vehicle were parked all over the place. Both on TTL and RVC. Right way, wrong way, half on the grass, all over.

          Taped off why? there was nothing to suggest it had been used in anything illegal. The matter was already being treated as a possible/likely SYG case, one of the statements from the night already says so. The shooter was in custody having peacefully given himself up. The only reason they were running tags was to see if there was a strange one that might help identify the victim.

          Much more to the point, is seems possible both Zimmerman vehicles were there. THAT might be something to arouse at least a raised eyebrow?

          So far it seems nobody’s found the appropriate webiste to search out the tags on, to confirm whose the other car was, the one mentioned as “white Honda”.

          • Yes, as you correctly point out, there’s nothing suspicious from the police side of the issue, as to why they didn’t move to tape off this vehicle. The police weren’t sent to locate GZ’s vehicle.

            But, from the Osterman side, that’s another story entirely! Since he knows about crime scenes and such, and knows that the shooters vehicle is connected to the crime scene, until the police examine and release it. Most especially since he also knows, that GZ doesn’t live over here, where the vehicle is parked. The vehicle is far from GZ’s home and much closer to the crime scene. To a trained police mind, that should suggest that it has some connection to the scene!

            In any event, if this was not GZ’s vehicle and this was not a crime scene involving GZ, I’d think Osterman would have pointed out that the vehicle should have been secured by the police, if it had any obvious connection to any party to the crime.

            I’d bet that if Osterman had sought clearance from the police to move the vehicle, noting that it belonged to GZ, they’d have refused to let him take it so soon. Of course, it’s suspicious that someone with his knowledge of police work, never bothered to ask for clearance. But, simply removed, what was clearly “probable evidence” from the scene surreptitiously, without notice to anyone!

        • GZ said he was in a vehicle, following TM and left a vehicle, it should have been investigated. What may have been in the vehicle it appears that will remain a mystery.

        • For a lay person, there’s no reason at all for them not to feel free to move the vehicle. So, on that point I can agree that, from Shellie’s point of view, it’s simply something to do.

          The problem is that a LEO professional is with her, who knows that the owner of this vehicle is also involved in a police investigation, or will be, or should be! Beyond that, he also knows, there’s no need to guess at what evidence, that is connected to someone involved, might reveal. He knows that all connected evidence should be preserved for examination. Not removed from where it happens to be, before the police know about it and have a chance to either examine it or release it.

          As NLME has said, and I concur, if they had another means of communicating, one that left no records, that would be suspicious under these circumstances, for a mere NW program. NW, as we’ve learned, are not expected to act on their observations. In fact, the opposite is true, they are expected to “stand down” and report, and remain passive! Something GZ has clearly made up his mind not to do any longer.

          But, while intending to break NW rules, we know now that he’d also want to preserve the appearance of continuing to abide by NW rules, even while breaking them. So, if he’s conspiring with others in this manner, then a means of secret communications channels would be a good indication of it.
          So, he certainly wouldn’t want any such device to be found in his vehicle, since that would cast doubt on his intentions and methods. Since it would make collusion a viable alternative to coincidences that appear.

          But there is also another thing that comes to mind for me. What if, as I’ve been saying, that those wounds the “professional barroom bouncer” displayed, were created before the claimed fight? Then, also finding evidence of recent bleeding in the vehicle, would add to those suspicions.
          Most especially in light of the autopsy report, which indicates that Trayvon’s hands never touched GZ’s bloody head. So, there’s that!

          Perhaps even a second gun in the vehicle? A knife or razor blade or other sharp instrument?

          In any event, as we have seen, even the exact location and orientation of the vehicle, is something the police and prosecutors would probably have found probative.

    • “I’m pretty sure that if GZ was not MO’s friend, MO would have pointed out to the police that they should be checking this vehicle. So what gives?”

      Good point.

      • NLME: You mentioned cb radios before, got me thinking.

        I also posted elsewhere about how it is possible that they used walkie talkies from Walmart. You know those inexpensive little things that cover 2 or three miles? If so, they probably purchased them with cash so as to leave no trace of the purchase, that would be the Osterman Resource way, eh? If so, then maybe FT, GZ and MO had one, and possibly John as well.

        In any event, that would make it a critical mission to get it out of GZ’s truck. But, that effort might be witnessed and/or leave other evidence behind, best to just get the truck out of there, as the Osterman Resource would surely know. So, using Shellie as his cover, he goes and does just that, removes the truck from the scene. The trouble is, he’s someone who should have known better than to do this. If Shellie had done it on her own, it wouldn’t seem quite so important, since no one could say that she didn’t know that what she was doing was wrong.

        But Osterman? No one can say that he didn’t know that what he was helping her do was totally wrong! He should have weighed in against it.
        He can’t claim that, simply because he’s no longer acting in an official capacity, he can be excused for knowingly destroying evidence. He can’t be excused for knowingly obstructing an official police investigation!
        Most especially in a homicide case. I think MOM has another client?
        Maybe that will help him raise more donations.

        • If O’Mara did lie to Judge Lester, he could face disbarrment. If Osterman moved GZ SUV from the crime scene, that obstruction of justice, yes he would have know better. I understand that MO at the scene continually attempted to tell the police what to do they told him to leave. And remember he shows up the next day as GM reenact what happen. Why Sernio did not tell him to leave I don’t know, but I would have. Then Osterman was fired from the Sheriff Deptartment for his involvment in fraud.

        • Ok, I respect everyone’s right to put up a theory, but I just HAVE to chime in on this one about the CB radios. COME ON! Given that GZ is really bad at covering his tracks and leaving recorded evidence (911 calls, jailhouse calls), do you really think they’d be wandering around with CB’s. Really????? You’re adding a few too many points to GZ’s IQ.

          • I guarantee you as Zimmerman’s finger was about to pull the trigger, he knew an obvious evidence trail (like phone records) wouldn’t be left behind for a slam dunk conviction. Otherwise, he doesn’t fire at Trayvon’s chest.

            Remember, we’re talking about a manipulative gun fanatic that studied criminal justice and was the son of two parents who worked in the judicial system their entire life.

            Maybe I’m giving Zimmerman too much credit. He’s done some REALLY stupid stuff so far. The phone records should reveal a lot. If they don’t, I’m willing to say there was an alternative form of communication used that night. What I can assure you — somebody tipped Zimmerman off before he began his hunt. Meaning, there was nothing coincidental about Zimmerman spotting Trayvon Martin near Taaffe’s house.

            • NLME, oh I quite agree that a tip-off is plausible, and GZ’s phone records would be enlightening. As discussed before by you and others, any number of people could have been the informant if there was one, with or without phone records.

              Sure he could have been on the “hunt”, but it started out to apprehend, not to kill, per his little hero/Napolean complex:

              1) Many things on his NEN call tells us that he feels so absolutely in the right with what he was doing (narcissism) that he let out expletives on the recorded call without a care. In his mind, the hunt was going to end with him actually catching a thief. Even if he did have an intent when he left the house to shoot the “suspect” (and I’m not saying that he did) with a depraved mind, I’m not convinced he’s smart enough to have the CB’s on hand to use to cover his tracks “in case” it goes down the wrong way. That kind of thinking is reserved for chess players and well successful criminals. I do agree with you NLME that GZ is capable of manipulation as evidenced by the hiding of the money, scripted statements, etc. But his ability to pull it off is just so inept, I will agree with you again that you give him too much credit.

              2) What is more telling is the way he keeps calling TM the “suspect” in his statements, and in the video with the female officer at the station he asks her if she’s ever “had” to shoot someone. He’s talking to her as if he was a rookie officer going through his first shooting in the line of duty. His demeanor was not “OMG, I shot someone”, it was “I HAD to shoot someone” in the sense that real officers “HAVE” to shoot a suspect. He also told the first neighbor on the scene the same thing, I think. And in his video enactment, his first thought was to jump on top and to ask the neighbor to help restrain the dying teenager. I also think some of those yells for help (but not all) were from him trying to get neighbors to help him with the “suspect”. That’s why he could get eye contact because he wasn’t really about to go unconscious.

              3) I think his friendship with MO, sadly, was both his saving grace and downfall. It was a saving grace in the sense that MO was there right after his tumultuous period of run-ins with the law back around mid-2000’s. Since then, he seemed to have “turned” his life around by going to school and getting married, etc. However, getting the gun and the trips to the shooting range all just added to his sense that somehow he belongs with the guys in blue.

              4) Why try so hard to be a hero? The answer will come out as the details of his “family dynamics” comes out, as O’Mara puts it. It’s not living up to his father’s expectations as some might think. It’s his mother. Classic profile of child trying to please overbearing parent.

            • Nor do we have to rely on GZ’s intelligence levels alone, after all there is the Osterman Resource, who could have easily advised them, if they ever got around to discussions of how to avoid NW rules without seeming to break them. GZ does seem to have stories ready, to “innocently” account for each breach of NW rules.

              1. The dispatcher asked me to follow.
              2. I stopped following and tried to return to my vehicle.
              3. I was jumped from behind.
              4. I was punched in the face.
              5. I didn’t know where I was.
              6. I stumbled and reeled for some distance then fell down.
              7. I forgot I had a gun with me.
              8. My assailant reminded me of the gun.
              9. I’ve forgotten how to defend myself, since my barroom bouncer days.
              10. Trayvon had magic hands!
              11. I had a magic gun!

              Oy Vey!!!

        • LOL So Interesting. I didn’t think they had CBs either but I never thought of the IQ aspect.

        • NLME

          MO was THERE. To begin with. No need for phone tipoffs when he can just drive to someone’s door and tell him in person. And very likely did not do so with any malice aforethought. Just casually mentioned seeing a “Goon”-like person heading this way.

          
          He left the bank at 6.40 Trayvon left 7-11 at 6.32 YOU work out where they’d first see each other.

          Doesn’t have to be a huge organised conspiracy for things to fall into place a certain way. Let’s try for the simplest explanation for everything — it is usually sufficient.

          • If I was driving back from the ATM and thought something was urgent/pressing/worth a neighborhood watch alert, I’d personally choose to communicate instantly instead of wait the few minutes it would have taken to get back to Zimmerman’s place. But, we’ll see I guess.

            Maybe you’re right though. Osterman got back to Zimmerman’s place and said, “Hey, George — there was this kid walking by Taaffe’s window 5 minutes ago…you should go check it out.”

            In such a case, I’d expect Zimmerman to respond: “Thanks for the delayed heads up, jerkoff — he probably already got away like they always do. Plus, it’s nasty outside. I’ll see if Taaffe can get an update.”

            • Gee a five minute delay at 5 fps is 1500 feet, TM would have been home by then eh? I noticed they like to use text messages too, so maybe they did? Well, first we had one possible source of notification, now we have two!
              It’s certainly looking more like there was notice given, than some coincidental meeting by happenstance. All that would be needed is a throwaway cell phone in GZ’s vehicle, or perhaps a walkie talkie or other communications device and GZ would be toast. As it is now, we’ll have to keep waiting and looking.

          • All of which may be true for that night alone… But, this breaking of NW watch rules, would have been an ongoing thing, that probably persisted for quite some time. So, that would be the reason for needing an “off channel” means of communications that would not leave a recorded trail.

            GZ or Taaffe might not have been able to foresee the need, but Osterman certainly would if they discussed it with him.

            Of course, this is now relegated to a side issue, since we still have no evidence to support it. But, it’s something we might want to keep in mind, since doing so might help recognize any subtle evidence of it. Without a theory in mind, of how some seemingly innocuous piece of evidence might fit, one is likely to pass it over or otherwise miss it’s significance.

    • I think it was all about the drugs. Florida is pretty popular for obtaining prescription drugs illegally. The gov there also wants poor people to take drug tests to keep or obtain welfare benefits at their own expense and at testing sites his friends profit from.

      Zimmerman’s wife was pursuing a career in which she’d have unfettered access to drugs. Zimmerman was pursuing a career (mortgage underwriting/fraud/underwriting) in which he’d have unfettered access to people’s credit reports which included SS#s, addresses, debts, etc., and his training focused on criminal justice.

      Both Zimmerman’s and his wife’s jobs could be completely noble and non-nefarious.

      My experience with LE is that they keep what they find and use it to share with “pretty girls” or “pretty boys” to impress who they think is weak and boost “control” over their “prey”. It’s all about power to some LE. For others, it’s not that way, but the one’s I’ve known, covering a friend is the same thing as CYA.

      I’d like to know what was in the truck Shellie moved and LE didn’t search.

      • UNFOUNDED CONSPIRACY!

        Just thought I’d get a head start. 😉 I have thought about this scenario, too, but since it’s not supported by anything factual at this point, I don’t go there. I, too, would like to know why SZ wanted to move the car so quickly; I would also be curious to know what the contents of that car were at the time along with location. I would like to know what was told to her by John that let her know the location.

        Do we know if GZ ever gave his address out in any of his non-emergency/911 calls, or did he always give landmarks or outside of his home locations for dispatch?

        • @quetno,
          GZ did give his full address to non emergency on the night of the incident. He told dispatch he didn’t want to give it out because he thought the kid was in the area and would hear it, but he went ahead and gave his address anyway.

          • Actually, I believe GZ first started to give out his address. He says the number of his house, but then stops short of giving the street address, and then says, oh I don’t want to give it all out I don’t know where this kid is. Not the other way around.

          • He gave the number, but then pulled back from giving the street name, presumably because he didn’t know who might overhear.

            Of course the way things are numbered there I think just saying 1950 is enough for someone who knows the neighborhood to find his house.

            unitron

        • @Caroline

          I thought he stopped giving it mid sentence. I remember him starting to say the address, but then stopping saying that he didn’t want to give it out because he didn’t know where the kid went. Personally, I think that contradicts with him not following; if TM had run to the back and was long gone like he said, and he had gone to where he says in the reenactment, then there’d be no way he’d be overheard.

          I noticed in his other calls to NE/911 that he seemed hesitant to give his address. I can’t recall if he ever gave it out. That night, I don’t believe that’s in the call because he stopped himself from finishing it then that’s why they started discussing where he should meet them.

        • You are both right. I think I’m getting too much info overload from listening to so many tapes. There was one dispatch recording where I am sure I heard him gave them his full address when he was at his house with She-lie in the background. I must say you are all doing a great job on NMLE’s blog site, my favorite one by far.

        • Hey.. It is definitely UNFOUNDED! 🙂

          In most of the calls I listened to, he didn’t give out his address.

        • I’d guess in most of his calls he wasn’t home.

        • @aussie

          I believe you are correct. I think there was one call he was home, not because he says that, but because I believe they redacted out an address. There was another call that I found interesting because he was in his vehicle, and straight up says he parked somewhere where he could be inconspicuous and watch, and I believe it is in this same call that he refuses to give an address (like in the TM call), but in this one GZ is asked if they are still in the area, but he answers no. It just sort of reminded me of his behavior on the TM non-emergency call.

67. @ Lonnie Starr. MO is a person of questionable charter. He was fired from the Sheriffs for his involvment in a fraud. MO is credit for teaching GZ to shoot, I somehom do not think simple target shooting either. A friend, possible MO allowed GZ to hide out in his home and is currently appears to be part of GZ security team. I am getting the impression MO had access to GZ ATM that would include the password, so perhaps not friend but more then a mintor. I do not know the various rules of an Air Marshall, I do imagine there is a code of conduct that may prohibit Air Marshall from hiring themselves out as body guards and such at MO did while he was a sheriffs deputy.

    • Notice how GZ’s head was shaved before the events making him look more like MO. MO is definitely a mentor and fatherlike to him. But it is slightly odd though. It it like someone who lacks confidence in themselves will try to take on characteristics of another person. GZ was probably trying to be MO that night or behave as MO would have.

    • Though discredited as he may be, he still was privy to police work and crime scene processing, so he’d know that what he was doing, in removing the GZ vehicle from the scene before the police could have a good look at it, was wrong.

      He needs to be cited for doing that, because he knowingly broke the rules and obstructed the police investigation! He knows that the police are entitled to look at GZ’s vehicle, most especially when it’s parked closer to the crime scene than to his home. Both of which locations MO was well aware of!

68. I am loathe to even delve into the sexual abuse topic but I wonder if GZ will deny the meeting in a booth of a restaurant where GZ had a short, seemingly insincere apology for the abuse survivor. One assumes there are witnesses for that “apology” and that investigators would care to contact this person to confirm the allegations were acknowledged at the time, if not actual guilt admitted. He can deny the behavior or specific activities all he wants, but a meeting to discuss the topic that took place with at least one witness present is another matter all together.

    Through his lawyer he seems to be denying the activity, and I don’t blame him for trying – if he was 18 and she was 16 when it was happening that’s probably criminal behavior, it would seem to me. But is he also denying the MEETING took place and/or what he said at the meeting?

    • if Zimmerman is a decent person (imo), he won’t waste time and money trying to smear the victim. Instead, Zimmerman should spend his bucks on smarter representation. Funny how team Zimmerman wants to discard Judge Lester for upholding the law.

      • Perhaps, if he were a decent person, he should’ve done the right thing and admitted his misdeeds to the authorities that night, and the next day to Trayvon’s family. Then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn’t be here discussing this (imo).

        • I so agree. Contrary to popular opinion, I *do* think Zimmerman is evil. Incarnate as a matter of fact! The jury is out — for the 6 or 12 that will be selected to hear this case and decide. I’m not on it and there is zero likelihood that I would ever be.

          But from my perspective, I see no reason to withhold my opinion or not draw conclusions based on the facts (as interpreted by me in formulation of my own opinions). Sure, opinions probably should have been reserved prior to the evidence released, but we see the evidence now.

          I am deeply disturbed by the profit-making angle of this case. There is no way a decent person would be soliciting tv interviews for cash with a schtick involving saying crap like “it’s god plan” to kill a unarmed black teenager. Look at Goldman Sach’s Blankfein’s arrogance and the results of his “it god’s work” testimony! This bull is no longer acceptable.

          I’m no huge fan of Sharpton, but even he said it months ago. Bullchit is acceptable until people stop accepting it.

          No decent person would put up a website begging for cash from “those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes,” which was the position to kill an unarmed teenager committing no crime as that teenager walked home after purchasing snacks with the decently -earned money his dad had given him.

          No decent person would say on Fox News’ Hannity propaganda show airing 7/18/12 and 7/19/12 pre-taped 1-2 days prior that he wouldn’t do a damn thing different that night in light of all the facts made publicly available since his murder of this unarmed child. This Fox interview was taped months after evidence dumps were released to the public and neither Zimmerman nor O’Mara can pretend any longer that they hadn’t been made fully aware that he had shot an unarmed kid.

          No decent person would continue to try to *penetrate* or insult or intimidate his victim’s family with fake apologies just as a rapist would try to penetrate a victim and insult the victim with powerful reasoning to hush the victim. (Sorry Aussie, but I’m using the word “rape” this time in the sense that it is a crime of control/power/abuse over a victim and not in relation to the case or use as evidence).

          The chit Zimmerman and his attorney are doing (raping their victims) is unacceptable. It’s unacceptable in a civil society.

        • Common

          I too am sickened by the fact that people donate to them, knowing full well that the evidence so far is inconsistant with his claim of self defense. I feel that by doing this interview, and using the media to garner financial support for GZ, that MOM is doing what everyone else in GZs past has done…give him a false sense of entitlement! They really seem to be enjoying his new found celebrity even at the expense of a dead teen, and that teen’s grieving family.

          MOM continues to feed GZs delusions of grandeur. Instead of being the voice of reason and ensuring that GZ realizes that for every so called ‘fan/supporter’, there’s an even greater number of people against him. The idea of the two of them “paling” around like best buds is a slap in the face to the justice system.

          Every time I think of him and all his financial supporters, I think of the movie ‘Man On Fire’ with Denzel Washington…and remember the line when the mother of the kidnapped girl, whose presumed dead, asks him what he’s gonna do to those that were involved in the kidnapping/killing. He replies that he’s gonna kill any/everyone that was involved, and or profited from it. I just can’t help but believe there’s gonna be a certain measure of ‘reaping’ for anyone that’s sown a seed (profited and or donated), in support of GZ. Not because they honestly believe him to be innocent, but because of their own bigoted beliefs!

69. @aussie @comment box 58

    “Attempts to demonise the guy are going to backfire big time. Exaggerations are already creeping in (a quick grope being referred to now as rape, for instance, the self-appointed experts should know the difference). They’ll backfire on the witness, backfire on the case, turn into a circus of who can blacken whose name more….. and just keep the money rolling in for the “defence fund”.”

    I said “rape” at comment 53 (the only one here who has done so). If that’s what you refer to above, I must say that I truly meant no harm to you personally or your well-rounded opinions. I just respectfully disagree.

    Apparently, in Florida, sexual penetration of minors is all good if the perpetrator is under 24. In my state it’s 18 and commercials run 24/7 of women saying “I was” [raped]. I agree that it’s partially off-track unless we’re discussing character and this *is* a character issue that is reportedly corroborated and not just tabloid smearing. The rape victim may be used as a rebuttal witness by the state. I agree that it is a separate case to be brought as to criminal charges that may ensue.

    I also take offense to your rant regarding “self-appointed experts” if you were referring to me. If you were not, please disregard. Again, as the only person to refer to Zimmerman’s actions as “rape” aside from legitimate news sources, I feel it was directed at me, but hoping it was directed towards those newspapers that did the same. IOW, I hope you were not referring to me and talking about newsers in general instead.

    My psuedo name mentions no expert status for a reason. I rely on *common sense* — a people’s experience. I personally advocate change to fracked up laws and the Austrailian-born criminal Murdoch enterprise’s monopoloy of the news fed to us Americans for which we have a right to get without his right-wing agenda, his greed and his influence. The end goal for me is to see Australian-born media mogul SHUT DOWN so that whites, blacks, hispanics and asians get back to news/facts.

    I reiterate that based on everything I have seen thus far, I find George Zimmerman to be evil. It’s my opinion. Maybe Australian-born Murdoch’s leading “feeds” (CNN, HP, ABC) will get back to the job of reporting facts instead of writing for click-appeal. If they don’t, it’s not my problem.

    We’re on the same team (I think), truth. Truth is sometimes cold and hard as well as sometimes compassionate and soft. Logic is multi-faceted and cannot discount the real world no matter who has media control.

    EVIDENCE says Zimmerman raped a family member and later apoligized for it. That’s not based on anybody’s expertise. It is based on the facts released in accordance with Florida’s sunshine laws.

    • as an Australian i must say i agree with you about Murdoch….and please stop reminding everyone where he is from…it’s embarrassing lol

      • LOL! I don’t discriminate against Australians. I wish I could visit the “down under” myself, but I’m too chicken-chit to stay on an airplane that long. I hear its an awesome place.

        I had a cousin who went to live there for a few years and had nothing but good things to say about it and the pics and stories he told were like living in a dream. Perhaps one day I’ll get over my long-flight issues and see for myself.

        • haha yeah the flight would be a real bitch..i hate planes too…but you get free booze on international flights so then again the longer the flight the better lol

70. I’ve compiled a list of 8 statements made by GZ to his buddy MO that he never told police. The funny part is that he made them just 2hours before the reenactment.
    Same place (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII), last figure.

    • Am I being too forward if I say I love you, tchoupi.caillou? LOL. Thanks, and going to take a look now.

    • Wonderful work as always, tchoupi.

      44,501 views for your compilation. I’ve seen it mentioned on other blogs, too.

      Maybe he has a single-use memory? once he tells someone that’s it, he can’t use it again?

      • “Maybe he has a single-use memory? once he tells someone that’s it, he can’t use it again?”

        Bahahaha, that would explain a lot!!

    • There’s a point I was trying to make though…

      When I wrote “I wonder if it wouldn’t be more efficient to interview Mark Osterman directly.”, I was suggesting that MO may really be the mentor/coach/trainer [you name it] that help scripting GZ’s story. I should actually say MO and Zimmerman Senior [RZ].

      After all, MO seems to have been told more about the events and they discussed the them only a couple of hours before the reenactment. We also know MO and RZ were at the complex (by the truck that never moves) during the reenactment. It feels like it has been a pre-reenactment session with a former cop [MO] & a former magistrate judge [RZ].

      As Investigator Serino stated, GZ’s story sounds scripted. Guess what, GZ’s story has even been rehearsed.

      • like he had visited the scene already to get the story straight and checked out the surroundings during the day. Nice one.

      • I’m with you on that point. I always thought it was RZ Sr. that was the director, but now that we know about MO, I think he played a role, too. But why? Helping a buddy or something to hide? And who is Scott/Ken?

        Why do all of these people want to run to help GZ?

      • I think other witnesses also may have felt they were listening to a rehearsed story. Some even mentioned the Zimmerman “repeats” in their statements.

        • CSFC, could you link to some of the witnesses mentioning GZ repeats? I’m really curious. Thx

        • @tchoupi –

          I took a look at my notes from the 2nd doc dump and one reference appears on page 138. The link for the doc dump is at the top of this page. I downloaded mine from news4jax.

          ——-

          page 138 – when talking to the co-worker the day of the shooting, the co-worker said zimmerman repeatedly mentioned the part about Martin slamming and bashing his head into the ground. (this is odd since that’s the exact same part he makes sure to repeat multiple to the police. seems rehearsed and similar to the way sales people repeat phrases in order to drive home a pitch. zimmerman used to work at car max.)

        • Also, take a look if you haven’t already at page 145-147 for an evidence map and key from SPD(?).

          • CSFC – I plan to post a review/analysis of evidence dump #2 later today. Can I email you for some insight/feedback at the yahoo address before the posting is live?

        • @NLME –

          Why certainly! Don’t know if I can be of much help, but I’ll try.

        • Thanks CSFC, this is interesting that the day after he was repeating his story at work.

      • Ha! Well for all the ‘rehearsing’ for the ‘reenactment’ they sure did a lousy job prepping GZ. But then again, he does have a ‘bad memory’ and all (lol), so he very well could’ve mucked up an otherwise, plausible story. Jeez, these three! Don’t know about anyone else, but I get the feeling his father isn’t all that ‘authoritive’ in the sense that, if the allegations of the mother’s physical abuse and him standing by doing nothing are true, she’s the one running the show in Zimmerman household.

        Granted, we all want to protect our children, but, no way would I go on record reporting as ‘fact’, the ridiculous story GZ told. Especially, after seeing him and realizing that his injuries didn’t line up with the story. I doubt the mother believed his version of events and only spoke up at the first bond hearing to show support, giving testimony of two instances of him not showing racial bias. I get the feeling she’s none to happy about GZ putting the Zimmerman name, she holds in such high regard, in the ‘spotlight’, negatively! She certainly didn’t want the family’s dirty little secrets getting out…

        • I think Zimmerman’s team is oblivious to what people really think and are self-absorbed bigots that don’t think other people are “bright” enough to notice their contradictions or their falsely put forth explanations.

          I think his mother’s and father’s testimony on behalf of their son is fake to the core. They remind me of grifters and insurance frauds that milk compassion towards the jewish plight and the plight of hispanics, but have disdain for the black plight, the asian plight, the african plight and the ‘other’s’ plights around the globe.

          • Is that a back door way of trying to insinuate that Zimmerman is part Jewish?

            unitron

        • @omnitron –

          I am saying they only get “causes” that work towards their own end game — whatever it may be at that particular moment. Like people that put on tattered clothing only on a day they have to go to the welfare office or people that purchase crutches and bandages as they head to their insurance agent’s office. [Large butterfly bandages over tiny wounds that required nothing but soap and water to treat.]

          I don’t know if George Zimmerman is Jewish.

        • Apparently he is not Jewish. The name is common in German, about 50 – 50 Jewish and gentile.

          The mother was repaid loans she’d given them to help them out. Perhaps she was repaid with substantial interest?

          Was she there are the second bond hearing? it was being televised so she was going to see it anyway. Might account for RZ’s strange way of saying he’d heard GZ screaming like that “in Virginia”. To avoid saying when his mother was thrashing him? and thereby get in trouble with Mrs Z?

          Although it’s more often the father that’s abusive and the mother trying to protect the kids, it works the same the other way around, too. The mild parent “making it up” to the kid afterwards, to ease his pain. And the mild parent helping the kid cover up anything that might otherwise draw the wrath of the abusive one.

          As for “marrying white and money”??? called upward mobility, or social climbing. Not necessarily racist; can apply to marrying into the “right side of the tracks”. Implies the person considers THEMSELVES to be in a socially inferior position. Which might be objectively true, without implying they believe they ARE inferior. Just saying, not trying to discount Mom Z’s quoted plainly (“proudly”) racist remarks. Of course if one partner is “marrying UP” the other is marrying “down” so you have to wonder what’s in it for them?

          • @aussie –

            Social climbing *if defined by the *race of the bride or groom *is racist, imo.

        • i am sceptical about the mother beating George mercilessly. This story has come from George telling his friend, not even the cousin mentioned it. Maybe she was strict and smacked him and he is embellishing. I’m not saying i don’t believe it at all, just that i don’t trust much of what George says and wouldn’t put it past him to exaggerate to get sympathy. Like when he told his ex he owned the insurance company he actually only worked at…and when he told his events of feb 26, alot of embellishing to make him appear the victim.

    • damn, why can’t i view it. My computer is giving me grief. Is there any way you can summarise here because i’m really interested in reading this? cheers

      • Statements made to MO by GZ, but left out of his tellings to the SPD:

        1. Making eye contact
        2. Going out of his car with the purpose of locating TM
        3. Falling on his butt then on his back as a result of TM’s punch
        4. TM mounted GZ with his butt on GZ and knees on the ground to the sides of GZ’s ribs
        5. GZ observed 3 witnesses come out one after the next. Made eye contact with all and directly yelled to them for help, but no one listened and all went back inside
        6. GZ slapped TM’s hand away from gun, pulled it, rotated the weapon then fired one round
        7. GZ’s elbows were on the ground when he fired
        8. TM pivoted 90degrees then laid face down

        These are points tchoupi.caillou lists on his(?) wonderful link!

        • wonderful, thanks! All good points

        • Thanks tchoupi.caillou, you’ve done an amazing job on the clubhouse videos and analysis of the crime scene.

          One of the above points sticks out like a sore thumb. Number 5: If this is when GZ says he was pinned down, did all of those 3 witnesses verify or deny it was him who actually called out to them for help? After he shot Trayvon he claims he was restraining him face down and was calling out for help, but there is no one heard calling for help on the 911 calls after the gun went off. Those calls picked up a lot of background noise before the gun was fired as you could hear screen doors slamming and the terrified calls for help so I would assume IF GZ’s called for help after the fact it was loud enough to hear and would be picked up on the dispatch call. When Mary and Selma went outside and caught him in the act of “restraining” Trayvon they asked him three times what was going on but he didn’t ask them to help him. All he said was to call the police.

      • It’s an image file, you can download it and blow it up in your image software.
        I used FastStone image viewer, it’s pretty good and simple to operate. just google for it.

    • I, too, am seeing your works linked at multiple sites discussing this tragedy. Good job!
      .

71. Just for anyone awaiting Judge KL’s ruling to stay or remove himself for the case might not happen for a while according to Orlando Sentinel. They say he is out of office for this week and the next, IIRC.

72. No, CommonSense, it was not directed at you when I wrote it. This blog is not the whole world. I was talking about reactions in general to this witness and her testimony. I was also remarking on how many commenters (here and elsewhere) take the line of ” i was assaulted/molested therefore…….I know how it feels/know she’s telling the truth”. That is not how we determine truth.

    You say
    “..Apparently, in Florida, sexual penetration of minors is all good if the perpetrator is under 24..”
    Not so. A person over 18 may consent to sex with anyone older than 24. Between the ages of 16 and 18 a person may consent only with a partner who is between 16 and 24. Under 16 there is no legal consent. If two 15 year olds decide to have sex, they are both officially committing statutory rape.

    However, statutory rape just means the person’s consent was not legally valid, not that they didn’t intend to consent. It is not RAPE in the normal sense of the word. Nor is digital penetration. Nor is fondling or grabbing the breasts etc. Sexual assault but not rape. To call it that is an affront to and a serious trivialising of the experience of REAL rape victims. You know, those that were forced to have intercourse while being strangled or stabbed or bashed on the head with a rock or tied up and held prisoner for days. That kind of real rape.

    “EVIDENCE says Zimmerman raped a family member and later apoligized for it. That’s not based on anybody’s expertise. It is based on the facts released in accordance with Florida’s sunshine laws.”

    No external evidence. A statement about assaults, not about rape. This time I do direct it at you — please do not exaggerate an already irrelevant claim, and especially not in the same breath as accusing the media of bias and “click-appeal” and twisting things.

    The testimony is likely true, but produced at this time only to show GZ to have bad character, which may be very true. It may or may not become admissible in the murder trial, which is what it purports to be evidence for. But exaggerating it IS an attempt to demonise him, which is behaviour we have come to expect from the other side, not here.

    Or are we now going to say “it was murder and our proof is that he is a demon?” what happened to “our proof is that he stalked his victim who availed himself of his right to SYG?”

    Let me know when everybody’s tired of this tabloid detour and some genuine evidence about the murder shows up.

    • @aussie –

      “No external evidence. A statement about assaults, not about rape. This time I do direct it at you — please do not exaggerate an already irrelevant claim, and especially not in the same breath as accusing the media of bias and “click-appeal” and twisting things.”

      Now, I have no idea what you are talking about. Click-appeal is done for bucks usually. The media does it sell ads and boost their stats to sell ads in the future. Comments on blogs are generally not for click-appeal. They are just opinions.

      We will have to agree to disagree on the rape of Zimmerman’s family member W9 being irrelevant. I find W9 credible and relevant if the prosecution calls on her for testimony as a rebuttal witness.

73. I am wondering if there is a criminal investigation into Mark Osterman for obstruction, and if not, why not. Did he know Bill Lee when they worked in the same department?

    Aussie’s comment sticks with me…
    “GZ says a bit impatiently ‘just tell her I just shot somebody’ because she knows the rest already.”

    That comment, especially the use of the word “just,” has always seemed a bit odd. I guess I just chalked it up to the fact people aren’t necessarily articulate at moments of high stress. But the “just” makes sense if, as Aussie says, she already knows the set-up. And it makes sense if GZ is already calculating that there are things NOT to tell.

    It really is inconsistent with his story. If you were on your way to Target, and got waylaid into a fatal encounter, you’d have to tell a loved one more than that wouldn’t you? I mean, they would wonder if you wound up in the middle of a robbery at Target, or somebody tried to carjack your Ridgeline or WTF.

    Does anyone know whether GZ called anyone from the SPD after he was taken into custody, and whether any calls he made were logged, observed or taped? He must have… how else would Shellie have known to move the truck? Such a call might be very revealing. If, in such a call, he didn’t explain the whole thing from the beginning it would be a strong indication that she knew he was going out to look for a supposed intruder.

    I hope the prosecutors subpoena Osterman’s phone records, as well as those for any and all phones, land or cell, belonging to GZ or SZ. I’m guessing that if MO was already at The Retreat, SZ would not be smart enough to place a fake call to him to “request his help.” And even if she did, it would establish a timeframe for how long it would take him to get from Lake Mary to The Retreat. In other words, it may be relatively easy to prove he was there before he says he was.

    If indeed it was Osterman, not Zimmerman, who saw Martin walking out from behind Frank Taaffe’s townhome, that would explain an anomaly in the timeline. DeeDee places TM under the mailbox awning at 6:45. It is impossible for him to have been there that early, and for George Zimmerman to have observed him “walking around… looking at all the houses.” Thus, I have wondered if DeeDee is mistaken about what happened when, or whether she just assumed he was under the mailbox awning in The Retreat when he was actually under an entrance awning in the apartment complex just to the West of The Retreat.

    BUT, lets say Osterman drives into The Retreat just after 6:40. He sees Trayvon emerge from behind Taaffe’s unit, cross the street and continue behind the townhomes on RVC along the path toward the pool. He continues to the Zimmerman’s. As he drives the rest of the way, exits his car, and explains what he just saw to GZ, Trayvon continues toward home, but the rain picks up and he ducks under the mailbox awning.

    Data from the Ravenna Park weather station, the closest to The Retreat shows the rainfall in inches:
    6;27 .00
    6:32 .00
    6:37 .02
    6:42 .03
    6:47 .04
    6:52 .04
    6:57 .04
    7:02 .05
    7:07 .07
    7:13 .08
    7:18 .09
    7:23 .09

    So, the beginning of the rain would have Trayvon taking refuge at about 6:45, which is when he calls DeeDee. But the rain is just falling harder, and Trayvon has no reason to leave the awning, since chatting with DeeDee is his main objective and he’s in no hurry to get the Arizona and Skittles back to Chad.

    Meanwhile, there’s enough time for GZ to get into the Ridgeline and start driving around, checking to see if the ‘goon’ is still there. And this scenario fits with tchoupi’s deduced path of GZ’s vehicle based on the clubhouse videos. If GZ had been observing TM walking, this path makes no sense — with GZ passing the clubhouse, going through the intersection, making a U-turn, passing the clubhouse again in the other direction, making another U-turn, and only them turning right onto TTL. This is not the path of a person who has been observing someone and following them, but the path of a person looking for something.

    And if tchoupi is right, GZ finds what he’s looking for as he pauses by the mailboxes, then retreats to a more discreet surveillance point by going East on TTL and making another U-turn.

    If DeeDee is correct about the time and place, and if tchoupi’s analysis is correct, then Trayvon was in the same spot, by the mailboxes, when GZ left his home until GZ spotted him there. And the only way GZ could have been looking for someone whose location he did not know was if SOMEONE ELSE TOLD HIM THERE WAS SOMEONE TO LOOK FOR!!

    Now, from GZ’s point of view, the fact that the guy Osterman (or possibly Taaffe) had spotted was still outside “hanging around,” may well have fueled his suspicion, and when Trayvon finally left the mailbox area, GZ had no idea he was simply heading for home, and may well have interpreted the fact that the young man walked toward his truck as an act of aggression. “Now he’s coming towards me… Something’s wrong with him. Yup, he’s coming to check me out.. he’s got something in his hands, I don’t know what his deal is.” (At this point, GZ has no reason to lie about TM, this is what he thinks is going on…)

    TM passes the truck, giving it a wide berth (“circling” in GZ’s later formulation), and after he passes it (with who knows what kind of eye contact between him and GZ) he breaks off running to make sure he gets away from the truck. But GZ gets out and chases him. Trayvon realizes this, takes evasive action, and GZ loses sight of him. Somehow (and we may never learn exactly what happened) the two men wound up scuffling in John’s backyard a few minutes later, and…

    …Speaking of witnesses, why in heaven’s name have the investigators NOT interviewed Shellie Zimmerman? Wouldn’t they want her to confirm GZ’s account of when he left home, and where he was going? Wouldn’t they want to know when and how she heard of the incident, when she went to move the truck, and how she knew to do so? (Yes! I want more perjury counts for She-lie!! :0 )

    But again, if all she heard was a short call from Jonathan relaying George’s message of “Just tell her I shot someone.” she would know generally where and how that had happened — if and only if she had been privy to the knowledge that George was going out to look for an intruder which she could only know if someone had delivered information about a suspected intruder to the Zimmerman home before George left, which could have been a phone call from Frank Taaffe, but more likely an in person account from Mark Osterman.

    I feel the pieces of the puzzle starting to fit together here… Perhaps the fates will curse such hubris and the next evidence release will scatter the pieces anew. But for now, what do you all think?

    • Whonoze, I really like that analysis. Thanks.
      It looks like GZ knew there was someone suspicious walking east on RVC. He would have driven passed RVC/TTL junction when he noticed him at the mailboxes. Then he made a u-turn driving slowly to check that what he briefly saw was indeed a person at the mailboxes awning. Then, he decided to confront TM, so he made another u-turn by the clubhouse turned right on TTL and stopped by the mailboxes.

    • I think this is brilliant. It explains why the narrative started for Treyvon and DeeDee at the mailboxes. This is when Treyvon first mentions being watched. If MO paused and stared at Treyvon on the way in, this would have been some other dude to Treyvon. There would have been no reason to connect these two in his head.Two completely different cars.
      I also think it’s time that MO and SZ faced some more questions.
      A lot of people could potentially face punishment for George’s murder of Treyvon. The bodies are really racking up. Now we add O’Mara for lying to the court, and MO and SZ for potentially tampering with murder evidence. I hope the other family members involved in money moving also feel the heat.

    • I question if GZ really did spot Trayvon hanging around at the cut-through. If Trayvon did come in that way I can’t see him lingering around on someone’s front lawn checking out the houses, and besides it’s too much of a coincidence he actually saw him there first. In the reenactment GZ brings up one of his previous reports of a would be burglar who got away after hanging around a friends residence at the cut through area, which we know he was likely speaking about his friend Taafe and his house . I don’t know if it was the same incident but did you notice on one of his previous dispatch calls he gives a description of another black guy who went to the back entrance? When he adds the part about seeing TM lingering at the cut-through location it was meant to further justify his reason for reporting someone who was suspected as being “up to no good”. I don’t doubt he got a tip off from someone that TM was walking in the neighborhood so decided to take a drive until he got to the north end of RVC and it was there he first spotted TM sheltering at the clubhouse. George had already made up his delusional mind that here was another would be burglar that always gets away so he was determined he would get his man this time. He is a master at embellishment with the so called circling incident and also saying TM attacked him at the top of the T entrance and then shortly after threatened to kill him when he saw the gun. I am absolutely sure he rehearsed all of his tall tail beforehand to justify his actions and claim self defense.

    • Wow — excellent! Love the weather analysis.

      Very good point: “It really is inconsistent with his story. If you were on your way to Target, and got waylaid into a fatal encounter, you’d have to tell a loved one more than that wouldn’t you? I mean, they would wonder if you wound up in the middle of a robbery at Target, or somebody tried to carjack your Ridgeline or WTF.”

      I’m confused by this part…

      “DeeDee places TM under the mailbox awning at 6:45. It is impossible for him to have been there that early, and for George Zimmerman to have observed him “walking around… looking at all the houses.””

      “Thus, I have wondered if DeeDee is mistaken about what happened when, or whether she just assumed he was under the mailbox awning in The Retreat when he was actually under an entrance awning in the apartment complex just to the West of The Retreat.”

      I remember reading or hearing that people would take refuge from the rain under the gutters/roofs near the northwest opening. I think I read/heard this before knowing Taaffe’s address.

      • @NLME

        It’s been so long since I’ve listened to the PD interrogation tapes, but isn’t he asked something about his wife/calling her, and if she’d be worried. I thought he said something like no then explained how she was able to move the vehicle. Ugh! I can’t remember. I just remember thinking his response was weird.

      • NMLE,

        I don’t think DeeDee places TM at the mailboxes at 6:45.
        6:45 is about the earliest time TM could have arrived there assuming he walked (no sprinting) all the way from the 7-11 leaving at 6:32.
        DeeDee uses call breaks as time markers. Hence we can conclude that TM could have been at the mailboxes by 6:54. In other words, TM is expected to arrive at the awning between 6:45 & 6:54.

        There was a time when we were wondering how GZ could have noticed TM and be parked on TTL. In terms of probability, assuming TM & GZ were moving to their respective destination,
        1) the lowest probability was that TM came in from the north entrance & GZ drove via LOW & TTL toward the north gate (no overlap of paths) ,
        2) the 2nd lowest probability was that TM came in from the north entrance & GZ drove on RVC toward the north gate (minimum overlap of paths), &
        3) the highest odds were that TM came thru the north-west cut and walked east-ward on RVC toward the clubhouse as GZ did.

        Then the idea that GZ may have been tipped off by FT looked very attractive because, we then have the observer fixed somewhere on the path of the observed which explodes the chances of the two meeting at any moment.
        Personally, I was giving more importance to the fact that TM actually stopped at the mailboxes. That came with DeeDee’s statement. Again, with one party fixed on the path of the other, the odds off en encounter explode. in this case, anybody driving to/from the north gate may have noticed him. Anybody includes GZ, assuming he really was going shopping.
        However, what I haven’t thought about is that Anybody could be a 3rd party who would call GZ. In this case, FT but also MO are of interest.

    • I definitely think that notification is more likely than a happenstance encounter. It looks to me that GZ, by saying that he picks up TM at Taaffe’s in the cut through, he’s cutting out Osterman and Taaffe as possible sources of any alert.

      The “just tell her I shot someone”, if he already knows that Osterman is there, means she’s going to automatically ask him what she should do. Osterman knows what needs to be done, because he knows crime scene investigation procedure. He knows that the location and possibly the contents of the truck could be evidence, that might conflict with or confirm a very bad story, since GZ should not have been either armed or following any suspects.

      So, to protect GZ from controversy, Osterman knows the truck has to be removed from exposure to search. He also knows this is a crime in itself, so he’ll try to use Shellie as cover and take her along. But he knows they’ll have to move fast, before the police realize that GZ has a vehicle in the vicinity.

      I think also, that Osterman is wandering around the scene later, to pick up intelligence that GZ can use. By telling the police what to do, he also inspires them to reply with bits of info. Perhaps he also uses jargon to convince witnesses that he’s with the police? Who knows what he could learn and do to alter the course of the investigation, and/or provide GZ with help in constructing his story.

      Of course, like I said before, that a teen who has no experience with fighting, could bring a professional bouncer to near death, is palpable fiction!

    • If Osterman (or Taafe) told GZ about TM, that also could account for some of GZ’s high level of suspicion. We’ve been assuming he actually saw Trayvon walking around, and sort of hallucinated Trayvon’s innocent behavior as sinister. But I’m now thinking the first time GZ actually saw Martin was while the lad was hiding from the rain under the mailbox awning. So GZ was interpreting a verbal report of Trayvon’s behavior, not the behavior itself. Whoever told him of spotting the young man may have embellished a bit, and the difference between hearing about and seeing certain leaves room for imagination to take hold and color things — like the distortions in a game of ‘Telephone.’

      Looking back at GZ police call. He says:
      “There’s a real suspicious guy… This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or
      he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about …looking at all the houses.
      “Now he’s just staring at me.”

      This is all from the first 45 seconds of the call. Notice that GZ doesn’t use the first person: “I just saw a suspicious guy.” The more vague “There is a guy…” would fit with someone else having ‘established’ that ‘fact.’ I’ve already noted that basically everyone in this case uses the present tense in calls to the police when describing things that have already happened, so “he’s walking around looking at the houses” is not what GZ is seeing as he reports it one way or the other. But the word “Now,” clearly establishes the beginning of an actual present tense account, and where is TM at the time? At the mailboxes.

      NMLE: In her interview with BdlR, DeeDee says Trayvon was at the mailboxes when the call dropped and she called him back. She’s very clear in describing the mailboxes at The Retreat, but I’ve thought she may have filled this in after the fact. But, again, assuming she’s not, since she called TM at 6:49 and again at 6:54, that would place TM at the mailboxes no later than 6:54. Which would mean he was in one spot for at least 15 minutes before GZ called the cops, which just doesn’t fit with GZ having observed TM entering through the shortcut. Tracking back from the 7:09:34 start of the call, GZ probably left his townhome around 7:05, give or take. It would take TM about two minutes to walk from the shortcut to the mailbox awning, so if DeeDee’s accurate here, that would put TM at the shortcut no later than 6:52.

      —
      Folks here have asked, ‘who takes a gun with them while running errands at Target?’ In Florida, maybe lots of people. The empirical question, though, which could be answered by investigation, is ‘was George Zimmerman in the habit of carrying his gun at all times, including shopping trips?’ If not, that would add to the likelihood that he left home to check on a suspected burglar, rather than everyday errands.

      —
      I can’t see this tragic incident occuring at all unless someone saw TM coming from behind Taaffe’s unit at the shortcut. Regardless of who saw that, it’s still an unlikely coincidence of timing. Since I now think it extremely unlike that GZ himself spotted TM at the shortcut, that leaves Taaffe and Osterman, and of the two Osterman is a more likely candidate for a variety of reasons. And if it was Osterman, had he arrived at The Retreat two or three minutes earlier or later than he did, nothing would have happened.

      • Real sharp analysis Whonoze. I’m impressed.

      • Or if he’d not been like-minded enough about “intruders” to bother mentioning it to GZ as a matter of (mutual) interest. I know when I visit friends, I don’t give them a rundown on who I saw 4 blocks away on my trip. Not even if I thought they look odd or out of place. I’d mention something that may interest them eg “Hey there’s an icecream van headed this way, shall we get some?”

        Guns to Target? well here in Australia we don’t carry guns (and Target sells clothes and furnishings, but not food).

        But I leave my phone at home when I leave the house to go for a walk (for exercise). I take it with me when I leave the house to walk to the corner to investigate a smashing or screaming noise. Why? because I know I might need it.

        But GZ said (and again I can’t give the link) he carried all the time except when at work. But I doubt that means he sits around his own house all day armed to the teeth, so he’d have grabbed the gun when he went out to check MO’s tip-off, OR already had it on him in preparation for going shopping.

        If in fact he had had to borrow money from MO, that’s one more embarrassment that a good hero act would make him feel less bad about.

    • I think this is in general a likely scenario, with qualifications. A couple of quick points to consider:

      SZ could easily refuse to answer questions from investigators. She’s got zero obligation, as did GZ, to answer questions or give statements without a lawyer present.

      W13 who took pics with his iPhone and was on the phone with SZ isn’t clear if he mentioned his location when he first reached SZ, so the “just tell her I shot someone” isn’t indicative that she knew where to look for a truck without being told.

      GZ marked a spot on a map at the first bend in TTL where he stopped his car, but quickly crossed it out. Placing Z’s car in this spot removes contradictions and solves inconsistencies in his statements to police and lines up well with the recorded NE call. It’s also a prime spot to watch someone at the “mail-shed thing” from.

      Osterman has admitted being on the scene AND apparently speaking to both cops AND to GZ when he spoke to FDLE.

      Osterman seems the prime suspect to coach GZ on the scripted portions of his false narrative. The verbal death threat delivered BEFORE the teen allegedly goes for the gun always struck me as ridiculous. What sort of fool would notice an opponent is armed and then issue a threat before reaching for the gun, much less getting the gun away from his opponent? Makes no sense, and when RZ sr tells it, TM issues the threat, and goes back to pounding GZ’s head and never reaches for the gun. This is a script, and a clumsy one IMO.

      IMO TM ran away from GZ who was MOVING his car behind TM along TTL. Right after “these axxholes always get away” you can hear him put the car into gear (reverse, probably) and then into another gear seconds later. TM seemingly moves for 30 more seconds until “sh*t, he’s running” is heard and this is the slow motion chase. Regardless of the gearshift sounds being correct or not, the 30 second “long tail” suggests that TM would have been out of sight from GZ were he parked at his final “Frank Taafee/ according to george” position (but facing the cut thru). GZ claims when played the recorded NE call that he is “by the clubhouse” and indeed he was – just not in the parking lot. He’s at the first corner, facing the clubhouse.

      GZ also claims he was at RVC when he said “he ran” which is impossible. He’s at the T

      • I was also wondering what information she was given to meet MO at the crime scene. Jonathan Manalo doesn’t say. But, I also had to admit that she could have just noticed the sudden increase in police traffic on RVC. I’ve counted 5 vehicles on RVC coming from the north gate after T. Smith arrival. Neighbors may have noticed.

        I also believe GZ moved his truck to follow TM once he passed him. But it is impossible to show. Only the NEN call is indicative of GZ suddenly maneuvering his truck.

        ####

        I have missed quite a bit of information concerning Mark Osterman.

        Does anyone knows where he lives? I know he lives in Lake Mary, but I’m not sure how far he lives from the Retreat At Tween Lakes.

        Does anyone knows if he was already at the Z’s place at the time of the shooting or if SZ called him to ask for help? Time was short. GZ was handcuffed at ~7:20 and it is only then that JM (W13) called SZ. GZ was already at SPD station at 7:51 which is ~15min away from the crime scene. So, SZ & MO had less then 20min to get the information and meet at the crime scene. It is not much of a problem for SZ as she could have walked there. But, if MO was home, he wouldn’t have much time, and adding that SPD locked the complex doesn’t help.

        • Tchoupi
          my story is like this (and this is why I was sweating on that bank video coming out, weeks ago):

          MO takes money from the ATM and drives out of the bank at 6.40. He is going to visit GZ (I’m guessing the withdrawal, visit and planned shopping trip are embarrassingly connected). He sees a “Goon gang-member” walking on Oregon Ave. He arrives GZ’s place. . He mentions this casually. GZ goes out leaving MO with SZ, expecting to be away only a short time.

          When the short time expires, MO and SZ can hear sirens incoming, lots of them. This tells them something is going down right there in that estate. SZ gets a call from a known? neighbour saying err ummm err I’m calling about George and errr…….. and he interrupts with ” oh, just tell her I shot somebody”. In other words “it’s ok it’s NOT ME GOT SHOT “. 2+2 = follow the flashing lights.

          MO drives SZ and they’re there within a minute. Or they go in separate cars tho’ that makes less sense. MO states he didn’t speak to GZ or the cops “in detail”. So he DID speak, could be when they decided to take his truck home. SZ drives the truck home, prepares change of clothing (MO would tell her the cops will want his clothes for evidence). MO finishes interfering with the investigation, picks her up at home, sits with her at the cop shop (Aussie word) until they’re ready to let him go.

          So, MO got involved in the truck-moving, waiting with SZ etc because he was involved from the word go. He set it all in motion by noticing Trayvon walking along Oregon Ave and saying so.

74. I probably shouldn’t toot my own horn, but I did predict the W9 flap over a month ago: http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/06/14/trifecta/

    Like many, I thought W9 was GZ’s ex-fiance, but this is part of what I wrote:

    “If W9′s charges against GZ hit the media eye, it’s pretty easy to conjecture about what will happen next. Her credibility will be resoundingly attacked, and her testimony discounted as the delusional ranting of a vengeful ‘ex.’ Limbaugh will have a field day with her, Hannity and others will probably pile on as well, but Rush will use that special talent of his to stand out. At which point every advocate for victims of domestic violence will be called to arms, demanding that the public (and the court) ‘Believe the women!’ and cursing all who would ‘Blame the victim.'”

    I don’t listen to either Limbaugh or Hannity, who may well have abandoned GZ in favor of full-time Obama-trashing, leaving the field for dissing W9 to Jeralynn at TalkLeft. And of course, the cousin is being painted as both delusional and vengeful in a way the ‘ex’ might not have been. But I’m still feeling a little prescient today. Hold your applause, please! 🙂 I’m sure I can manage to look the fool again soon enough…

    • WHEEEEEEEEEE!!! kudos whonoze

    • I’ll hold my applause, but will you accept a pat on the back? 🙂

      Always happy to read your analysis/commentary.

    • There is an upside for Treyvon’s side that has been reluctantly conceded over at TalkLeft. (And yes, the vengeful, delusional talk is in full swing over there, it’s painful). O’Mara now does not dare bring in any folks speaking to George’s good character at the trial. Not one of these Zimmermanians will get to vouch for him. If they do it opens up the character question for the state, This lady can be introduced to the jury to counter their claims. This domineering, abusive character flaw in George could then be the straw that breaks the camel’s back with a closed-minded juror.
      She now functions as nuclear deterrence. And it’s going to be hell for her from now on.
      Compare this with what we know of Treyvon: tattooes of all the significant mothers in his life, talking to a girlfriend on the phone, a heart on his phone for heaven’s sakes. DeeDee said he spoke about missing his mother. He was working on getting into college. I won my husband over with the fact that Treyvon liked aviation. I’m not aware that anyone has yet alleged that Treyvon was anything other that a totally normal, just turned 17 year old, decent kid.

      • The other thing weighing heavily on my mind is that zimmerman didn’t really have any family ties for a judge to rely on to ensure his bond. I had read early on that zimmerman was estranged from his family and now, with w9’s, the ex-fiance’s and MO’s statements, we get a glimpse into why.

      • “O’Mara now does not dare bring in any folks speaking to George’s good character at the trial”

        AND THAT is why she is relevant. He just put OMara in check. There is the evidence and there is TRIAL STRATEGY. Bernie just cleared the deck of bs and that is why we see this appearance on Fox and an attempt to try this case in the media.

        Tangentially – I believe that many people want to believe this is NOT relevant or will never make it to trial because of the nature of her accusation. The silence around and turning away from child sexual abuse must…MUST…stop. The knee-jerk reaction to discount her based on nothing more than framing around this issue hurts so many and has to end.

        • @princss6 –

          ” Bernie just cleared the deck of bs and that is why we see this appearance on Fox and an attempt to try this case in the media.”

          That’s how I see it, too. I hope Bernie D’s strategy works.

75. In Florida 794 statute covers sex with a minor and it is a felony. I further disagree agee with your view that is simply means that the person is under a certain age, the victim in this case was unwilling. I will also remind you that in the case of Sandusky case, there also was a lack of phyiscal evidence yet a jury found Sandusky guilty of 45 counts. As to the issues of GZ, the core of this case is as many have pointed out his honesty, or lack of it. Is GZ a concerned citizen who overeacted to see someone he did not know, thinking TM was attempting to commit some crime and in GZ made a mistake that resulted in the death of TM, as GZ states self defense. Or was GZ acting out some cop fantasy as Investigator Sernio say it. Or is GZ a pededator, with a long history of preying on people, bullying them and then acting inoccent, a master malnipulator to get his way. As I said before the core of this is GZ being honest and as one lawyer put it, that is in the toliet. As more and more infromation come to light, in my view, GZ has a long history of anti social behavior that has now come to the death of TM and he is doing everything he can to escape responsibily. That is evidence.

    • I think Zimmerman is smart but chose to use his knowledge to do bad things. I think he is shocked to learn that the people supporting him are bigots. I don’t think he realized his racial views were the same as theirs until he saw who his supporters were.

      One of the jail calls (call #30) discusses Sean Hannity’s offer to pay for his legal defense if he used “JB” (joe baez).

    • I agree somewhat although I think that the sexual abuse may not be relevant. What is relevant is her position as an insider in this family for so long. What she says will have the effect of countering anything that comes out of the not-so-trustworthy Zimmerman branch. Though the press insist on lying about it, she did come forward just days after the death. She has obviously seen how manipulative he is and felt that she had to speak out. The chickens have come to roost!

      • @San San B –

        I read also that W9 is married with kids. Basically, I take that to mean she has moved on with her life. She also seems to not have wanted to be involved but felt a higher moral duty to speak up.

    • John, I was saying that an under-age person is breaking the law even if they intend to consent, because the law says their consent is not valid on account of their age. Get it? That does not make them “felons” or “criminals” in the character sense of being evil people. Unless you want to say all those millions of kids who have sex under age are all evil and should be in prison and/or on a sex offenders list somewhere. What nonsense.

      The consent laws apply to sex as in sexual intercourse. Kissing, cuddling, fondling, fingering etc do not count as sex in this respect. If such things are done without a person’s consent then they constitute assault, the same way as hitting them would. But not rape, statutory or otherwise.

      It is considered more serious if done to a minor, in both sexual and non-sexual cases. The same way as shooting someone dead is considered more serious if done to a minor, because the laws generally try to give extra protection to children.

      The point I was trying to make is that sexual assault does NOT equal RAPE. And that characterising what happened to this witness as rape is trivialising the experience of real rape victims, while the exaggeration is an act of demonising GZ.

      The Sandusky case was ABOUT sexual assault. In such a case a string of separate independent witnesses making similar claims do add up to proof that he did it habitually. In a murder case the testimony that the accused “also” assaulted someone (in a non-life-threatening way) does nothing for proving the murder. It just says the accused is not of good character — which is neither here nor there in proving murder.

      Many people of generally bad character never commit murder, and many murders are committed by people of previously good character. This witness’s testimony will become relevant ONLY if character evidence is to be brought at the trial. Meanwhile all it does is show GZ is not a nice person, which we know already from how many lies he’s told.

      What these incidents say about his psychology also don’t add up to evidence of murderous intent; at best they may rebut a suggestion that he never sought to take advantage of being in a position of power.

      All the character evidence may do is give a little insight into WHY he may have done what he did… especially the trying to cover it up afterwards. It does not show motive. It very definitely does not show METHOD and that is what we need here — evidence of how the events unfolded, in order to show how the confrontation started and who started it.

      As I said before, even if someone has previous conviction for murder, that is not PROOF that he committed THIS one. All it does is make it hard for him to say “I would never d that” if there’s proof he has in fact done it before.

      Now please let’s get back to dealing in FACTS which this blog seemed to be doing very well at until this distraction.

      • then there is nothing left to talk about…all the interviews with colleagues, his ex’s testimony, his previous assaults…can not be mentioned because they don’t have anything to do with this case. I don’t think there has been a great deal of discussion on this molestation issue,far less than where the car is parked, what shellie said, passport and money discussions but there has been no complaints about those topics. The focus changes all the time. I have seen some things that i don’t think have much merit in this case as well, so i just don’t enter into the discussion and leave it to those who do think it’s important. But once again, i don’t understand the fuss. Scroll back, there has not been very much discussion on this topic, especially not the graphic details.

      • @aussie –

        “If such things are done without a person’s consent then they constitute assault, the same way as hitting them would. But not rape, statutory or otherwise.”

        Ah. I think I get it now. I think you’re saying it’s legally considered “assault” as opposed to rape. I thought it was statutory rape. Thanks for the correction.

        • @CSFC

          I think @aussie’s main concern is she(?) doesn’t want this to get like CT/gossip site.

          @aussie…are you concerned in the case that her statement is false/unsubstantiated, and if that comes to light that it will negatively influence potential jurors?

        • statutory rape is having consensual sex with a minor (depends on the law in that state/country) It is statutory rape because the underage person is not considered old/mature enough to make such a decision. But if both are under age then it doesn’t apply. Rape is penetration against someones will, but it differs. Sometimes digital penetration is considered rape, sometimes sexual battery, it depends on the states laws.

        • I think she’s made a big mistake bringing this up.
          1) it is unlikely to lead to his being charged with any of it
          2) if he is, she will be accused of making it up, largely because of the timing and method of her bringing it up
          3) it is admissible in the murder trial only if character evidence is going to be admitted at all
          4) in that case they’ll try ripping her to shreds in the murder trial
          5) the effect on the jury will be negative whether she ends up proving it’s true or not – the defence will just argue these are attempts to demonise the accused BECAUSE the case is weak on facts.

          It won’t help the case against GZ at all.

          She can’t win. She’s just re-opened a can of worms she was trying to forget. Even with it never going to any court she is being demonised by the pro_Z camp already.

          Meanwhile the pro-Z are screaming “another Duke case” and using it to drum up more money for him.

          @ Jo “…all the interviews with colleagues, his ex’s testimony, his previous assaults…can not be mentioned …”
          That is quite possible. All these help us form an image of the man, what his personality is like, to help us on possible motives or how/why he may have acted/reacted a certain way.

          The prosecution has to stick to the facts of the case. They can’t just dump in everything bad they know about someone, and tell the jury to convict him for murder just because he’s an all-round bad guy.

          If the defence, even just in cross-examination, brings up the subject of his “‘good” character, THEN the door is opened to character references, and THEN the prosecution can introduce evidence about bad character.

          The accused’s previous convictions are never admissible either, except if brought in through this “back door”.

          The evidence dumps include every interview the various investigators did. That does not mean all or any of those will be actually used in court.

          Leatherman’s blog is excellent on these legal aspects of the evidence.
          http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/

        • hi aussie, i totally get what you are saying, of course nothing he has done in the past proves he is guilty of man 2 in this case, but the way he allegedly dealt with this W9 has comparisons to the way he dealt with his ex and fits a pattern of contol that he seems to have. I think most people here have stuck to those sorts of discussions and not delved into the sordid details so i don’t have a problem with it. Of course there have been so many false accusations of such things that we can’t just blindly believe it all, but there are certain aspects that are interesting in regards to the way George operates. Whether it will be used at trial i have no idea. I don’t think this blog has degenerated at all though, it really isn’t something that could be completely ignored, and i think considering the “holy shit” factor of this accusation we have all been pretty restrained and i’m sure it will stay that way.

          As for W9, i also think things will get tough for her, and i hope she has a strong support system around her because she is gonna need it. She is already being vilified by Zim supporters, her identity outed and credibility questioned. I can only think that when she heard what had happened her emotions took over and she did what her heart told her to instead of her head. I hope it doesn’t come into evidence because if her allegations are true then she will be violated all over again. She has the weight of the world on her shoulders i’m sure, and will be pushed and pulled in all directions from family members that support her or be angry with her, it’s a really tough place for her to be in.

        • @qetno –

          If her call turns out to be bogus (and I don’t think it is), one would have to wonder why someone in his family has such hatred for him to make something like that up.

      • i think all rape is traumatic though, it doesn’t have to be brutal beatings to leave life long scars. When you trust someone, like a family member or a religious leader and are taken advantage of it can cause all sorts of hell in your life. Often it happens more than once and the victim has to deal with guilt and confusion. If it is a family member you may get called a liar or feel responsible for the family breaking up. It is not always forced because you trust the person, but might think it’s wrong and end up dealing with the feelings for the rest of your life. So i think it’s hard to define ‘real’ rape as opposed to assault. Legally it is whatever the state/country determines it to e, but it doesn’t have to be brutal to constitute rape, often the emotional scars hurt more than the physical ones.

        • sorry what i meant to say at the end was that i don’t think brutal rape is trivialised by calling other less physical encounters rape. The scars can be just as deep from any violation.

        • Sorry, Jo, have to disagree with you on that.

          Any assault can leave scars, that is not in dispute. The size/depth of the scars may depend not only on the physical injuries caused, that is also not in dispute. I’m also not disputing this witness has trauma from her past dealings with GZ.

          But what she describes cannot be called “rape”. Because it isn’t.

          There is a substantial difference of degree. It’s the same as GZ calling his scratches “life-threatening injuries”.

          I’d just like to see everyone keeping a level head and balanced terminology about this. None of us called GZ a brutal thug based on his known assault history. None of us should be calling him a rapist based on this testimony. We can call him a killer because he’s admitted to it; we can’t call him a murderer until he’s convicted of it, even if we are seeking to prove what he did was indeed murder.

        • i do understand what you are saying, but there are varying degrees of sexual assault too and i would say what this witness has described is on the more serious side. For instance, some drunken bum grabbing your boob before passing out at the office christmas party doesn’t deserve the tag of rapist, but it can be classed as sexual assault. So on one end of the scale you have a drunken boob grab…and the other end of the scale you have repeated sexual groping/assault/intimidation by a family member, but they are both considered sexual assault. Which to me kind of trivialises the seriousness of the latter situation. Anyway, i say a lot of words but then i read it back and still don’t think i am explaining what i mean very well. I don’t think any of the comments here were attempts at demonising, we are all pretty good at keeping ourselves in check and none of us want to stoop to the standards of the nuthouse and i really don’t think we have at all.

76. Follow

77. Thanks for the kind words!!
    I was wondering why I wasn’t getting any follow ups. I missed so much. Trying to catch up.

    • Morning from where I am, Loree! Good to “see” you. Are you replying to a post or creating new one? Just wondering if the comments are messed up again, lol. I was a bit confused by the previous post of “Follow.”

      • Im not getting follow up posts!!! I had posted the jailhouse calls and was wondering why the blog was not commented for two days.
        QETNO, please pass along a post to NLME.
        NLME please fix!!!

        • Loree, double check to make sure you have selected both options to be notified of follow-up comments and new posts. Also, have you checked your spam filter? I’m not sure why you aren’t getting comment replies sent to you. Keep checking back manually, and hopefully we can get it figured out why you’re not getting new posts!

          • Thanks QETNO
            I got your email and I think i fixed it!!!
            I have to read three days worth, geeezzzz

            • It’s resolved? If not, I’m confused but will take a deeper look.

        • Awesome to hear it’s fixed!

          • Thanks for your help.
            I am now getting updated. I tried to keep up through this blog because its the best. I am working very long hours now, and can’t post as regularly as I did before, so i am relying on you guys to keep me informed.
            Thanks Again
            Loree

78. What do you guys think is going to be the bombshell that prosecution will drop at the trial? Is it the phone records? They keep hinting that they have not released everything yet. Under whatever laws, they have to give defense everything, which then gets made public per sunshine rules. However, what they don’t have to “give” defense are things that they already have, such as GZ’s or SZ’s own phone records, so that’s why we won’t see them until the trial. Am I interpreting that right?

    • Zimmerman’s phone records/emails will definitely be used at the trial. They are currently sealed. I’m not sure about his personal computer, Shellie’s/Osterman’s/Jon’s phone records, etc.

      I imagine a lot could be answered by the records but I’ve labeled Zimmerman as somebody that would never pull the trigger if there was a trail.

      • NLME, your labeling of GZ in this instance may be right, but as you’ve said, there’s just so much of “we’ll have to just wait and see….”

      • And what of 4 7 and 10…
        I am still waiting…..

      • I can easily suspect that MO’s advice on that would be very helpful in reducing the chance of leaving any such trails. MO certainly cut himself a starring role in the matter, I seriously doubt that he meant to do that. But then, for 46 days this thing did stay local and not result in a more thorough investigation, starting early on. So, I’d guess he believed that taking the vehicle away, is something that would just fall through the cracks, and his role along with it.

      • @nmle – “I’ve labeled Zimmerman as somebody that would never pull the trigger if there was a trail.”

        Hmmm…considering how quickly the events of the night quickly unfolded, I’m not willing to give GZ that much credit. Some have called him “smart”, but I will respectfully disagree. I feel that GZ thinks he’s smart, but actually, he’s nothing more than a bully, and a liar(bad one at that), he believes he has the ability to make people believe anything he says is true. I came to the realization that he’s quite dim-witted after learning of the attempts to hide donated money days before first bond hearing, by speaking ‘giberish'(it’s silly to even say it was speakin in ‘code’) and then watching the awful reenactment. I feel there are many things in his past that he’s gotten away with, whether it was orchestrated by his parents or not, that have given him this false sense of authority and delusions of grandeur. IMO, GZ is a ‘figment’ of his own imaginaiton.

        • I think Zimmerman is fully capable of pulling a trigger. I think he has little hesitation pulling a trigger if he thinks he’s “hunting” an animal.

79. http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-witness-9-interview-more-details-released-in-sexual-abuse-allegations

    so this article doesn’t have any new information but there are some comments from O’Mara that i found odd. The woman said the alleged abuse stopped when George was 18, but O’Mara says it supposedly stopped when he was 17. If all the information came from the woman then on whose authority is he changing the age on? Either George gave him info saying he was 17, or O’Mara is simply putting the age of 17 out there because 17 is still a minor. I’m sure she said he was 18.

    • @jo

      I think it’s being said that he was a year and a half older than her, and at the time she alleges the incident occurred, he was still 17.

      • oh ok thanks, i thought she said 18, my bad.

        • No worries. She did say 18. They are saying at the time she is alleging, he wasn’t 18, and that she essentially rounded the age up to an even number. I’m going to let the prosecution and defense sort her statement/allegations out.

      • oh now i get it…don’t worry about me, i go from 0 to 60 in 24 hours…actually i don’t usually get to 60 because i have to lay down and have a nap…haha

        • jo

          I feel ya on that! Naps are definitely my friend…

      • If GZ were 18 and she younger, that’s an (alleged) crime – statutory rape, possibly. IANAL. MO’M has to go on the record quickly to try and establish a defense for this alleged crime.

        Again, the question a reported needs to ask MO’M is “does GZ deny that a meeting took place with the parents where GZ said he was sorry for the sexual misconduct?” He can dodge the question once or twice but not three times.

        These were allegations that were reported to parents, and the parents witnessed GZ admitting the truth of the allegations IMO, and all of this happened a long time before GZ killed an unarmed teen. If he and his lawyer want to play “blame the victim” (again) then the sexual abuse survivor deserves a vigorous defense in the media from anyone and everyone who cares to lend a hand for the sake of truth, justice and fairness.

        • @willisnewton

          I understand fully that if he were 18 it would be a crime, and from what I’ve read, it could still be punishable if he was 18 at the time. The blame game has already started. I do agree that GZ needs to be asked about this meeting. In addition, I would be interested to know if he does indeed have the scar on his penis that she mentioned. The problem I see thus far, is she says no one will corroborate her story, not even the family. I feel for this woman; she thought she was doing a good thing by coming forward. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t?

        • Anybody familiar with the statue of limitations for sex abuse in Florida? I’m purely guessing 10 years.

        • QETNO please cite a source that w9 can’t get her parents to corroborate. I don;t know if you mean she can’t get her parents to corroborate the sexual misconduct or if they are denying that the ALLEGATIONS were brought to them and a meeting took place. It would make a difference, it seems. What a sad mess.

          Also you wrote he/18 twice and I think that might have been a typo. Please clarify if it was, and thanks for answering. Complex stuff…

        • @willisnewton

          It was in her recorded statement. I’d have to go back and listen again, but what I got out of it is that she was essentially told to just drop it and if asked they wouldn’t talk about it. I can’t remember exactly, I apologize, and I will later go back to listen to her audio recordings because I might be mistaken.

          As for the he/18 twice, I think you are referring to the first part of the post you replied to. I meant that if he was indeed 18 at the time then it was indeed a crime, and from what I’ve read he could still be punishable, but I still need to examine that statute someone quoted. Some quoted FL House Bill 525 stating in regards to sexual abuse of minors that the statute of limitations no longer applied, but I am unsure if that is only for future cases or past, too.

          Very confusing, I agree.

        • i doubt W9 wants to press charges against zimmerman or anything, i think when she heard about the shooting all her feelings probably overloaded and she just had to call in and let them know everything. All the built up frustration probably came pouring out. I know how sad i was when i heard about this case and can’t imagine how much it freaked her out. So i really don’t think she will pursue anything more.

        • @willisnewton

          Ok, she is saying GZ sexually abused someone else, but that this person would deny it. She said her parents told her to drop it because she would get in trouble if he denied it to authorities. She then says that instead of talking about it, George just stopped being invited to family events. I can’t remember where I read/heard that the family said they wouldn’t talk about it. I thought there was a 4th audio on the OS site, but can’t find that now.

        • @jo

          I agree. I don’t think she will or wants to press charges. I don’t think she’s even trying to equate what GZ (allegedly) did to her as meaning he must be a murderer. I think she heard what happened to that kid, and did not want him to get away with something terrible again. It makes me incredibly sick and sad to listen to her.

        • yes QETNO. You put it much better than i could but that’s what i was trying to say, thanks.

        • @jo

          Nah, didn’t say it any better or worse. I just had to agree. Someone on HuffPo mentioned a statute then stated he might still be able to be charged, but I don’t think that’s what she wants. She probably doesn’t even want to ruin his life. Possibly she thinks of herself when she hears of TM. I’m certainly no expert.

80. Concerning W9, GZ answered “I don’t know” to Serino’s question about why a anonymous person would say terrible things about him.

    GZ could have brushed the question aside by saying that he can’t answer without specific allegations.

    My question is: by answering to that question, did GZ made W9’s statements a fair game for the prosecution?

    • hi, do you mean that instead of asking what the person said he answered “i don’t know” as though he must have had an idea of what was said?

      • On Feb 29th, GZ has no idea who called SPD to make statements about him. He doesn’t know what those statements are. But he knows someone went after him.
        This is the essence of Serino’s question: Do you have enemies?
        At that time, to Serino’s sense, it doesn’t matter much what W9 says. What matters is that GZ has enemies.

        So, I was wondering if the fact that the question was asked during interviews and an answer was given, is enough for the prosecution to bring that to court?

    • GZ most likely answered that way because he wants everyone to believe that he has absolutely no clue why anyone would ever say a bad thing about him. If he asks about the allegation, he may think that looks like admitting he has done something to someone.

      Can you elaborate on your question, please? I believe the only way W9’s statements can come in is based on how the defense wants to operate. For example, if they try to play the GZ is such a great guy card, or in order to discredit testimony for GZ.

81. Don’t forget the open threat GZ now lives under at anyone in his family might turn state’s evidence if they were somehow implicated in lying to the court as well. Certainly Shellie’s legal interests are no longer the same as GZ’s. His family is no longer a tie to cite to rely upon in regards to his motivation to appear in court. Like I said, and the judge echoed after, but for the GPS on his leg GZ left jail the first time with means motive and opportunity to leave the USA.

    He’s at a serious disadvantage now since he has to flee from the county, but I won’t be surprised one bit if he makes a break for it once his funds dry up. He stuck around IMO before to see if he could get a SYG hearing and mostly to collect the dough for as long as possible before fleeing.

    I do want to add a general comment however, to always keep in mind there is what happened, and there is what can be proven at trial beyond a reasonable doubt and the two are not the same. Try to keep the latter in mind. IMO the prosecution can prove GZ lied to investigators right up until the time he says “he ran.” After that, and the call ends, the burden is greater but GZ will arrive at that point in a courtroom with zero credibility.

82. Maybe there’s something I don’t get…because I often don’t get things, but does anyone else find it interesting that GZ spent almost the same amount of money that he told O’Mara he had before the bond hearing? I wonder if his lawyer advised him to spend that cash fast, so he could claim indigent.

    • Either that or he told him he’d already spent it. And the latter is what MOM will claim, if asked about not being truthful about knowing about the website funds.

    • i think they cleared all their debts. You know, paid off the car, the credit cards…gee who would’ve though shooting someone would become so lucrative!

      It made me laugh to read how Zimmermans supporters claimed that George never asked for that money for the bond so technically he wasn’t lying when they asked how much he had for his bond….but i don’t recall him asking for money to pay off all of his outstanding debts either…oh well, the money keeps rolling in.

    • I think O’Mara might have told George to spend that money and don’t bother him about the details. This was the very first transfer out of paypal and George was telling O’Mara that he couldn’t do it, that it had to be $10,000 increments. This makes it hard to believe this would have been after George had already spent the money.

      I hope I don’t step on anyone’s toes, but I’ve known lawyers to assume they have it all figured out and not listen very well at first. He marched in there ready to declare George indigent. He could have had very little faith that George would really be raising a continuous source of funds from this website. Personally I think he acted like a fool. He has put his law license on the line for George.

      The bodies are buiding up like the curse of the mummy’s tomb. Everyone he touches is cursed.

    • Yeah. That’s a strange coincidence. I actually thought they had spent something like $55K-65K based on the numbers put out there early on.

83. Oh lord, GZ with O’Mara on Hannity tonight:

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-18/news/os-george-zimmerman-sean-hannity-20120718_1_trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-mark-o-mara

    • excuse me in advance but FUCK.

      what the hell, i never knew he even did an interview. Can i ask what time it is over there because i’d like to watch it…in how many hours is it on? FUCK.
      Is he even allowed to do this? Lets hope his story tonight matches at least one of the twelve versions we’ve heard so far. Thanks for this QETNO.

      • It airs 9ET. It’s currently 2:28p.m. where I’m located (CT). ET is an hour ahead of CT.

        Side note: I apologize for the massive amount of comments I’ve posted on the blog. Keep up the good work everyone with the analysis!

84. There’s a country-boy lawyer phrase that applies here, and it’s called “pissing in the jury pool.” Keep in mind this trial is not going to take place on the internet or in the court of public opinion, and the prosecution has ZERO motivation to reveal their trial strategy at any time before the trial.

    This will be a highly scripted appeal for cash, and little more. It was also likely taped in advance and won’t include anything about w9, predict, or Judge Lester needing to recuse himself coming from GZ’s mouth. GZ will talk about his fear for his families’ safety and how he can’t talk about the case really, etc. I’m guessing but who knows what this knucklehead will let slip?

    • good call willis, money money money!!

      • Don’t forget to add in some sympathy! Poor George. Everyone’s always out to get you!

        • oh that’s always a winner…that’s a guaranteed $100 grand (thats 100 dollars in code) in the bank!

    • Of course, they will edit any slips but here is the problem…they do not see how offensive their statements are to people…i.e. send cash if you would have killed Trayvon, too! And I think that is the danger…they have a tin ear, are callous and arrogant.

85. W9’s statements may or may not be relevant to GZ’s trial, but I take the discussion on this forum to go beyond the trial itself towards various other ‘big picture’ issues. And one of those would be, ‘How can something like this happen?’ IMHO it’s simple-minded to just say ‘Because GZ is evil.’ How did he come to be the kind of person who would shoot an unarmed teenager?

    W9 helps us fill in a hypothetical sketch of GZ’s personality. We know he’s got a temper that has gotten him into trouble before. We know he has an aggrieved sense of right and wrong, likes to complain on principle, and sees himself as getting the short end of the stick. It seems he has a history of pulling power trips on females. He seems to be eager to please whatever crowd he’s in, insulting his Middle Eastern co-worker not out of his own animus, but to ingratiate himself with his other workmates. He also seems to be consistently two-faced, covering up his real feelings with a false front of exaggerated ‘good guy’ behavior and attitude. We also know that until this incident, he was estranged from his family, and it seems this was a case of GZ trying more to separate himself from them than vice versa.

    So when Mark Osterman reports GZ told him he was abused by his mom as a child, in my capacity as totally-unqualified psych profiler, I’m thinking George wasn’t BSing Osterman, but probably understating things, at least in terms of the effect his mom’s treatment of him had on his mind (regardless of how extreme it might have been physically, if at all). Because everything above fits with a victim of abusive treatment by a family member.

    Shit rolls downhill, and people who have had sense of security, safety, belonging violated by an abuse of power often respond to their consequent feelings of powerlessness by asserting power over someone weaker. An 8 year old male forcing a 6 year old female to do something she doesn’t want to do could be just such an example of GZ looking for somebody / anybody he can control in order not to feel so utterly helpless at the hands of his family. It must be horrible to be mistreated by a biological parent. You’re programmed to love them regardless, and if they betray your trust, the cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming.

    So, if you have kids, hug them and tell them you love them tonight, OK?

    • so true. I often live in fear/guilt of what mistakes i’m making with my kids, but they can never accuse me of not enough hugs haha

    • Being abused in childhood can lead to sociopathic behaviour. The kid never learns to be responsible, because his actions don’t lead to predictable consequences. He can be good but get beaten, or be bad and get cuddled and supported. Especially if one parent tries to spoil him to make up for the other parent’s abuse instead of stopping the abuse.

      To the point of getting in trouble on one end being “profitable” on the other end. They can get to where they ALWAYS feel innocent when being punished, even if on a particular occasion it is well deserved. Or deliberately inviting punishment as a way of triggering the “making up” from the other. So his currently acting the martyr for being charged fits nicely.

      His father did say at the bond hearing he’s heard George scream like that “in Virginia” ie when he was a kid.

      I feel sorry for Zimmerman for whatever happened in his early life to make him turn out like this. But none of it is an excuse for killing an unarmed kid. The majority of abused kids turn out to be decent people who try extra hard not to visit similar abuses onto people they come in contact with.

      I feel a lot more sorry for poor Witness 9, who is being dragged through the mud (and will be even more if she testifies in court) without even the prospect of his being punished, as might be the case had she had him charged with the assaults on her.

      ====
      One strange thing. Her name apparently is Christina. GZ has tattoo of a cross with “Christina” written in it. Anything to do with her? or someone else? how did that come about? delusion on his part that they have something going? wonder how long he’s had that tatt.

      • I believe Christina is supposed to be his grandmother’s name, too. Interesting that both he and TM had ink representing the women in their life.

86. Anybody listened to call #103 yet? Shellie’s getting pissed that George Zimmerman is making her look like an idiot or trying to turn all the family against one another.

    http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15562060/data/1/-/aqou6s/-/Call-103.null

    • Speaking of Shellie — wonder how she’s taking these revelations from Witness 9?

      And that he visited the ex-fiancee several times since they married?

      And her facing 5 years for perjury?

      Will she flip? or is it just a matter of when?

    • Wow, she sounds pissed. I wonder now that she’s been thrown under the bus whether she’ll turn on George. You know she has to know more about that night.

    • The call abruptly ends when Shellie’s tone turns aggressive, correct? Get ready for 25+ years of aggressiveness, George. You can’t hang up on correctional officers and fellow prisoners though.

    • i didn’t hear any anger or aggression, am i listening to the right one. She asks if omara said anything about his dad or something (hard to hear) and zim said that he said everyone is doing well. Is that the one?

      • Got to get to the end part. Zimmerman hangs up on her because she seems to be challenging him and calling him out on his divisiveness.

        • Yep. Manipulator. Go against me and I won’t talk to you/love you anymore.

87. All the jail calls are listed and linked here:

    http://www.clickorlando.com/news/More-than-100-Zimmerman-phone-calls-released/-/1637132/15562482/-/rcswq6z/-/index.html

88. Who is Zimmerman’s payee “D. Wendy Cummins”? Who is Cypress Properties Online?

    Thank you, Loree for the link to the bank statements on bcc’s older bloeg post @comment 399 (https://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/)

    .

    • Is that the house they got?

    • Your Welcome!!!

    • It’s his landlord.

      • Which one? One got paid $950 twice. Is that the landlord? Who is the other person in that case? I had read that one was a media consultant. Just digging for answers here…

        • Yes, his rent is $950.

        • That’s what I thought and thank you. So, who is Cypress? I’ve read this was a media company. If so, the media company has been overpaid because the media presented is an epic fail.

89. @NLME

    I think user Loree is still having issues receiving follow-up posts, and possibly new posts, not quite sure. When you have the time, maybe you could shoot her an email in order to see if you two can’t figure out he technical problems she’s experiencing. Thanks! 🙂

    I apologize for posting a new post for this; I’m being too lazy to go into email, though, lol. Feel free to delete after you read this! I just want to get Loree some help since she seems to be the only one having difficulties with receiving new posts.

90. i think this interview is going to hurt George. Not doing so well, more inconsistencies.

91. Zimmerman has no regrets:

    George Zimmerman Says He Regrets Nothing: ‘It Was God’s Plan’ For Me To Kill Trayvon Martin

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/18/545791/george-zimmerman-says-he-regrets-nothing/?mobile=nc

    • I think he’d get along great with those Westboro Baptists.

    • Did anyone notice how he used MO’s phrase “it’s not my gun, its the gun”. And the God’s plan thing is just shockingly disgusting thing to say in the same show as trying to apologize to the parents.

      • I didn’t watch, but I saw it on getting reported on other blogs. So, so staged.

        • There’s a part 2 tomorrow…

      • Yeah, that “it is THE gun” line is directly from Osterman. Page 77…

        Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

    • Unbelievable. Buried in Comment #66 above is my take on his little hero/napolean complex. But just when you thought his ego couldn’t get any bigger. I think he just lost a lot of would-be supporters who were on the fence about him. It may have been here or on another blog where someone compared GZ’s demeanor to that of the father in Texas who beat up his daughter’s assailant. That guy was screaming his head off trying to get help. @Jo, I agree that this interview is going to hurt him.

      • I think your analysis is pretty spot on. Where I’m not sold yet is that he’s stupid. I think he only tries to pretend that he is if it will suit him favorably. I think he’s a manipulator, for sure, but part of that is to look innocent and pretend not to know much.

        Listen to how he’s laughing it up with his sister about his mom’s testimony in court. Maybe you’re right that he dislikes his mom so much that he’d deliberately cast doubt on performance as if it wasn’t obvious already.

        I also think he’s greedy and selfish.

        • Thanks for the comment CSFC. To be sure, GZ is a manipulator, can be deceitful and uses his “charm” whenever he can get away with it. But his charm can only work on certain people. Seems he can dupe women in his life pretty easily. His ex who filed an injunction against him, let him come over even after she caught him lurking around her house and lied about it. Even now, she says he’s an ambitious guy, meaning that she still has some respect for him. Shellie, well we’re still waiting to see when she’s going to pull that wool sweater he’s got over her eyes….He’s so Georgie-centric, that everything in his life is about him (right after shooting, he’s apparently worried that HE’s going to get shot by the cops, not OMG, I just shot someone), and he constantly needs validation from people (having a graduation party before he’s even graduated? Um, not to toot my own horn but I have a degree that took many more years to complete than his did, but I DON”T think I’m the smartest cookie in the jar, and I didn’t have a party at graduation). There are different kinds of intelligence, and his isn’t the Ocean’s Eleven kind where it has been suggested that he/MO/Taffe/Shellie had CB radios to hide communication that night or to immediately think about where to throw his keys right after the shooting. Where I do think he’s straining his neurological muscles is his trying to explain or omit the real exchange of words between him and TM, whether he tried to detain TM, how far and where he walked around the T area, and when he pulled his gun. I’m just afraid less scrutinizing members of his jury may actually believe his version of the story!

      • Hi, lets hope some on-the-fence people do have a wake up call here. Unfortunately those that have chosen to support George will not be swayed, i haven’t seen any of them address the inconsistancies yet, it’s pretty troublesome. Once the media has had a chance to disect this interview hopefully they will see it for what it is too…then georgie will have something more to complain about… i can’t believe he said that in hindsight there is nothing he would change…the correct answer would be that in hindsight, now that i know this kid was doing nothing wrong, i would have minded my own business and let him mind his….but no, he regrets nothing, its Gods fault too, until O’mara pulls him up on it and then Hannity miraculously (because i’m sure he was really just wanting to get to the truth .. haha yeah i had trouble keeping a straight face while i typed that too) gives him an opportunity to explain.

        And when Hannity said that people saw the fight but saw the shot (paraphrasing sorry) and george laughed and said except me, i wanted to punch his teeth down the back of his throat.

        Pls excuse my typing. I haven’t had much sleep, i have a sick 2 year old, and i just gave in to a bourbon and coke (or 9) that’s been calling my name since the little terrorists went to bed. It’s been a loooooong day.

        • LORL!!! Jo you REALLY make my day…”the little terrorists”, priceless!

        • The little terrorists, indeed! Hopefully we won’t get called out for referring to hellyans with new teeth as terrorists. Been there. Love ‘m anyways.

          Hope your little one is better soon.

        • Thanks CSFC and Loree, yes anyone who has met my kids knows it’s an apt description, it’s lucky they are cute haha. Actually they are good boys but loud. SO..DAMN..LOUD.

92. Can we get a hologram a la Tupac/2pac style of TM, so he can tell his side of the story???

    Everything you say can and will be used against you!! As my mom would say, “Loose lips sink ships!”

    #KEEP.ON.FUCKING.YOURSELF.GZ

    Yeah, I need a drink and to check my emotions, HUSH. Haha.

    • I was about to go off but halfway through a new blog posting decided Zimmerman and Hannity’s interview wasn’t worth any keystrokes. If Hannity made Zimmerman sweat, Bernie de la Rionda is going to make it rain (should he take the stand).

      • I like that you left the blank new post up with that beautiful picture. This interview was same BS, different day. Certainly not worth an entire blog posting. As always, thanks again for letting us into your living room, and I tell you, I owe you numerous free beers, if I’m ever in the neighborhood, for keeping my sanity regarding the case through this blog.

        RIP, TBM: Feb 1995 – Feb 2012… Could of been any of us (or any of our loved ones) in his position 2/26.

        • You’re welcome. I mentioned this a few months back — maybe when there were a handful of comments on the original posting — but, being part of such a dialogue means a lot to me as well.

          I don’t usually get overly emotional but did while drafting that Hannity Zimmerman posting. Halfway through — while pausing/rewinding/fast forwarding/etc. my DVR and feverishly trying to type — I paused to think about the deceased teen and his family, broke down a bit, and scrapped the posting.

          Damn, I need one of those beers you’re mentioning. The year(s) old vodka I stumbled upon in my freezer recently will suffice. 🙂

        • Haha. It’s Diet Coke Lime and Rum here. 😛

          I think the most emotional I got in this case was when another FL case happened months after this one. Not sure if you’re familiar with the Tonya Thomas shootings, but she (AA woman) shot at her 4 kids, and she eventually killed them and herself, but before their death they ran to a neighbor for help. The neighbor’s 911 call was agonizing to listen to because you could clearly hear her disgust for the family…even stating that she knew something like this would happen. She yelled at these children begging her for help to get back and that no they could not come inside. The kids ended up going back home…straight to their death… I just broke down after hearing that call. I don’t like to blame witnesses because I can understand the fear, but I guess I’d rather die trying to help someone than live knowing I could have done more, but didn’t. It’s things like these cases that make me glad (in a sense) that I don’t have kids. Personally, I’m afraid to ever bring children into this fucked up world.

          • “It’s things like these cases that make me glad (in a sense) that I don’t have kids. Personally, I’m afraid to ever bring children into this fucked up world.”

            Agreed

        • I didn’t watch but twatched. I ended up in a heap…yesterday was the 15th anniversary of my brother’s murder. When GZ said he had no regrets and it was God’s plan…all I could see was my brother’s face who was murdered at 19. I had to step away from everything for 20 minutes and just sob. Every time I see Tracy Martin’s response to this God’s plan mess, I fall apart again.

          I’m still floored, floored….

        • @princss6

          I am so sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine that pain, but know your brother’s soul has risen. I am sure he is looking down on you, and so damn proud of the person you are.

          God’s plan/God’s will…no…FREE WILL. My heart is with you. Keep your head up.

        • yes God gave us Free Will…that’s what i thought when he said that or i might as well just go down to the local booze store and rob it at gun point…not my problem it was all in Gods plan.

          I must say i haven’t heard of the case with the 4 kids. It sounds harrowing and traumatic so i’m kind of glad to be ignorant. Trayvon looks exactly like my nephew, whose father is African American, i think that’s what shook me up, and how innocent Trayvon really is. I thought he was up to no good when i heard zimmermans phone call, then i read more into it and was devestated that this brilliant young man was taken.

          When this is all over we should all Skype and have a bourbon.

        • princss6 i can’t imagine how hard it must be for you. It’s hard enough for someone like me lucky enough not to have suffered any unexpected loss to deal with the insanity of this case. My heart goes out to you.

        • NLME, it’s true, it makes me worry what kind of a world my kids will have when they are old enough to start exploring the world that make me question my sanity when i decided to have kids…..well that and the mountains of snot.

        • Well, be assured that God has a plan for GZ, he certainly won’t like it!

          Galatians 6:7
          King James Version (KJV)

          7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

          • I’m not a reader/follower but this quote as it pertains to Zimmerman is great.

        • Thank you for the condolences, jo and qetno.

          Tina, I just tweeted your bible quote. Amen!

      • I so agree and my condolences to princss6 and others who are reliving this nightware. May your loved ones RIP.

        • Amen!

        • Seconded

        • I’m just seeing this post. Thanks, CSFC, Tina and NLME. And yes, let all of our loved ones RIP.

93. In jail call #101 @ the 8:55 mark, George Zimmerman and his sister(?) are laughing it up at his mother’s performance at the bond hearing.

    “.. and you know what he said. He said, Mom, if I don’t go, they don’t got nobody”

94. i missed the first 6 minutes…

    – do you think trayvon maybe was afraid didn’t know who you were?
    ..NO

    – why was he running?
    …he was more like skipping, moving away quickly, not running out of fear

    – you could tell?
    … he wasn’t running

    – when they asked are you following him?
    …i meant i was going in the same direction as him to see where he was going, i was not pursuing him

    – 1 minute lapse what were you doing?
    ..i walked across to my street, RVC, to get an address i thought i would meet a police officer, that i would call.

    – you sounded distracted, were you looking for him?
    …wanted to make sure he wasn’t lingering and could hear address, that someone could surprise me

    – you said have them call me?
    …hadnt given correct address, gave them clubhouse address

    – when did you next see Martin?
    …less that 30 seconds

    – where were you, how far from car?
    …never went further than 100 feet (looked at omara while answering)

    – then what happened?
    …he asked if i had a problem, i had put my keys in my jacket pocket instead of my jeans pocket, was going to call 911. reached into pants pocket wasn’t there i was shocked. looked up he punched me.

    – original punch broke nose, ended up on ground

    – you said you wanted to stop him hitting your head?
    …as soon as he broke my nose was yelling for help..continued to punch more than a dozen times, ‘shimmied’ to get off sidewalk

    – he was straddle on him with full weight, when he would try to lift head martin took opportunity to slam his head back down

    – was he talking to you?
    …yes cursing and said was gonna kill him

    – when did he see gun?
    …on ground shimmied jacket rose, he saw it. After he couldn’t hit head he tried to suffocate, pushed hands off nose, was told shut up shut up.

    – was that your voice?
    …yes, to silence screams….from what the investigators told him martin knew he was talking to the police and i was yelling because i believe the officer was there and i was yelling so they could find me.

    – remember when you reached for weapon?
    …i remember thinking it wasn’t my gun, wasn’t his gun, it was THE gun. Your going to die tonight..felt hand run down his chest

    – eyewitness out saw trayvon on top of you, no witness to actual shooting itself?
    … correct (smiles, little laugh) besides myself

    – you thought you missed?
    …didnt think i hit him

    – after you told someone to call wife etc? matter of fact about it? when did you know he died
    … about hour after being at police station

    – you saw he was laying and injured, u knew he was shot?
    … as i said he sat up and said you got it, i thought he meant you got the gun i’m not gonna fight anymore, i got out from under him

    – do you regret getting out of the car, regret you had a gun?
    …it was Gods plan

    – do anything differently
    …no

    – you said bad guys get away, were you predisposed that criminals get away
    …not in general, neighbourhood has geographical advantages for criminals

    – was this a misunderstanding did he think you were after him?
    …the media conjection, i cant assume

    – parents lost their son what do you tell them?
    …don’t have kids, have nephews, cant imagine how bad to lose a child, sorry they buried their child, pray for them daily, open to talking to them.

    – second degree murder charges, do you think about it?
    …trusts system

    – witness with cell phone asked about demeanor, acting like it was nothing?
    …i knew i had discharged firearm, was scared nervous, also thought police would see me with gun and shoot me.

    – did you look at trayvon and realise he was in bad shape?
    ….no

    – it was about 15 or 30 seconds until cops got there

    – why the media attention on this case?
    …they rushed to judgement, any positive story is portrayed negatively.

    – did i offer to pay legal fees?
    …never happened

    – you were alone in hotel, no family, no attorney, leading up to arrest, concern for him.

    …was talking to state police officer daily that had concerns for safety, told wife to stay in florida and continue nursing, dad had heart attack 2 weeks before incident.

    – black panther death threats, amongst others..Spike Lee, Sharpton etc
    …don’t know their motives, would ask for an apology…if i did something wrong i would apologise

    – molestation claims
    …fortunate FBI cleared me of racial profiling, ironic the only person saying he is racist said he didn’t say anything racist. Ironic the only person saying he is racist is same person saying he is deviant.

    – any comments omara
    ….no focus it will be non issue at trial, wont focus on attacking cousin if it wont see light of day in court

    – second degree murder
    ….all of evidence today doesn’t show second degree. self defence is probable.

    – bond revoked, hiding finances
    …Omara steps in wont talk about it because of shellies criminal charges

    – treated well in jail.

    – only told race when asked in previous calls

    – took on local case in favour of beaten person, story wasn’t getting media coverage, took it upon self to raise awareness.

    – you took lie detector tests, why
    …had nothing to hide

    – white guy, killed unarmed black youth?
    …assumed he was white because of last name, english second language, people rushed to judgement to assume he was white

    – issue of following him
    …walking from car towards my street, he went right, i went straight, during the call. Parked car at back of townhouses, couldn’t get number, could walk through to my street and give number instead of general area.

    – if you could speak to public and trayvon family
    … readress question would i do anything differently, i thought you meant would i not talk to police or take lie detector and i wouldn’t change that, looks into camera….but if there was something i could do that i didn’t have to take life, my actions have polarised America (coached coached coached)
    THE END

    • As a follower and believer in my Lord and Savior Jesus. I trust and believe that God the Father is in control of ALL THINGS. Whatever His plan that night concerning GZ and Trayvon, it certainly isn’t what GZ, or MOM, in their tiny little minds think! There will be a day of judgement, maybe not in the court of law…but he will be judged according to the laws of Almight God!

95. The comments are jacked up again. Sorry everybody. No, believe it or not, my professional background is in online technology but something’s up with wordpress after switching the comment moderation settings.

    • @NLME

      Should we just chop the comments from 89 on, but copy jo’s full recap and post that again after chopping to see if it resets the comments back to normal? I wouldn’t mind any of my postings getting deleted, and I think everyone else would be ok with it if it fixed the issue since most of these comments are just about tonight’s interview.

      Just a suggestion.

96. Oh shit, I think we done fucked up and broke the comments again!! LOL. *howling in laughter*

    Take it easy, and g’night everyone.

97. A constant thread throughout Zim’s various accounts is the unwillingness or refusal to acknowledge that Trayvon died very shortly after the gunshot.

    There could be a few reasons for this; he could be in a state of denial, unable to grasp the enormity of his actions.

    He may also be conscious of his incongruent actions immediately after the shooting and wishes to somehow mitigate them by denying knowledge of Trayvon’s death.

    Now, on a different topic but one that has been covered upthread, I strongly agree with Aussie that the response to the sexual assault accusations are way over the top.

    I would prefer this witness to be seen for the true value she is to the prosecution; a backstop against claims of Zim’s previously good character. The emotion generated by any kind of child sexual assault allegations only serves to cloud the cold logic and reasoning of the evidence in the Trayvon Martin shooting.

    Home profiling and psychiatric evaluation should be avoided
    just as much as the emotive cries of ‘evil’. The facts in this case speak for themselves.

    • Zimmerman didn’t know Trayvon was dead but several neighbors — while on the phone with 911 sheltered inside of their homes — were able to pronounce him dead? Something doesn’t add up again, George.

      • People without medical degrees who look out a window and make a dignosis do not fall into the category of expert witness.

        unitron

        • Apparently, people with degrees/training aren’t all that reliable either. One paramedic described zimmerman’s head bloodied 45%. We know that was faulty math based on the pictures taken by w13 and the SPD.

          • Did the paramedics get to Zimmerman’s head before giving up on Martin?

            If not, that’s more time for it to bleed after the photo, plus the photo doesn’t show the front of his head and how much it was bleeding.

            unitron

        • And a little blood goes a log way on a wet head being held in wet hands.

          They washed blood from his hands and arms, too, remember?

        • @onlyiamunitron –

          The blood had dried already.

        • @aussie –

          That’s the part that shows they may have faulty memories. Did they mention cleaning blood from the arms anywhere in their reports or did that spring up much later in one of the interviews? IIRC, the first mention of the arms was in an interview.

      • “Zimmerman didn’t know Trayvon was dead but several neighbors — while on the phone with 911 sheltered inside of their homes — were able to pronounce him dead?”

        Ignoring the neighbors with telepathic medical degrees, if Zimmmerman did not know the kid was dead, will the prosecution raise the question at trial

        “He just shot somebody, he’s got time to talk about the caliber of pistol ammunition used and ask if he’s got blood on his face and ask someone to call his wife, and as we’ve seen from the picture, use the phone himself–why the hell didn’t he call for an ambulance?”

        unitron

        • That is one of the things that makes me so passionate about this case. Zimmerman could have started performing cpr on Martin but yet he didnt. He had a conversation but yet no one tried to help young Martin. This is beyond sickening. Martin was treated less than human. P.s. While no amount of cpr could have saved Martin, they still could have tried.

    • again, i have not seen any over the top discussion about this issue here. Maybe it has been that way on other site, i don’t know because i am only active here, but most here stuck to how it shows his character and nothing more. I have not seen one over the top post on this site about W9 allegations.

98. George Zimmerman also has an active Twitter. I thought he was not to be on the Internet: ‎@friendsofgz

    • I’m going to guess they’ll remove the dog fondling and match.com looking pics pretty quick from the recently relaunched thereal[redacted]zimmerman.com site.

      • Wait…what?

        • Head over to his old site’s url…I won’t post it here.

        • It’s back up? Are we sure he’s the one operating it? I’d look, but I’m getting ready to head to bed in a bit, and I’ve had my daily dose of sick & twisted GZ shit.

        • Thanks for posting the screen caps. I’m going to have to build up some sort of BS tolerance because hearing stuff like tonight’s interview and seeing stuff like his defense sites is going to come up until the trial…which could be years.

99. If the order of the comments get messed up again — I’m not sure why this is happening but the “fix” is super annoying and requires I delete people’s comments — I’ll have to go back to moderating them.

    I apologize but A) annoying things and B) removing what somebody has spent time/effort on writing isn’t up my alley…at all.

100. I tried to post his new website twice, but my posts won’t take. It’s the same website GZ used to have: therealgeorgezimmerman

     • Wouldn’t take in the comment section of BccList.com? UGH!!!

101. The moderator on the GZLC site confirmed it is legit, the Twitter too. They both launched today.

     • The old-new site has a link to the same donation site as O’Mara’s.

       It’s just an outlet for being able to say the sort of things MOM can’t really say on the official defence site. No doubt he copped a fair bit of flack for the “donate if you’d shoot Trayvon too” type of comments. A separate non-legal site can be as extreme as it likes, without reflecting badly on the legal team, which has more than enough bad reflections atm.

102. Full(ish) “rush” transcript of the interview here on Fox website
     http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity

     They say it’s a rush job as CYA in case they left out something vital. It’s not like they haven’t had acess since it was recorded to do the transcript.

     I can’t comment on it yet. I’m dizzy from shaking my head.

     • O’mara was just there to beg for money and that is all. This is sooooo weird. O’mara sits up there knowing he does not have all of the evidence from prosecution as of yet, but he boasts and can sit there as though he has this in the bag. I can’t wait until this all blows up in their face and they can’t repair it. Zimmerman will have more ghost come out of his damaged goods closet before long. He has framed Martin a teen who was not bothering anyone and is now making money from his death. He has a lot coming to him and he deserves every bit of it. Spend the money Zimmerman. Spend it well because prosecution is going to tear your castle down. It is only fair to let Nancy Grace interview you now George Zimmerman but you won’t because she will ask the hard questions and call you on your bullshit. Bringing GOD in this, he serves a separate GOD, we all knew that anyway.

       • Please, Theresa, do not bring Nancy Grace into the discussion. She is one of the most fowl human beings ever to walk the Earth. GZ is a saint compared to Nancy Grace, and GZ is not a saint.

       • Exactly! Beg, beg, beg. Indeed that was all they set out to do. So cool that Barbara Walters blasted Zimmerman and O’mara when they attempted to use the View as another fundraiser. Walters blasted them back to the holes they crawled out of.

         • I love that Barbara Walters was cool and classy about it.

103. still dizzy but….
     http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity
     ==========
     bottom of page 4

     HANNITY: And you said to the police at one point that he put his hand over your mouth. Do you think that was to silence you from screaming?

     ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. I believe he — from what the investigators told me, he knew that I was talking to the police. And I was yelling so that — I believed that the police officer was there and they just couldn’t me. So, I was yelling in the hopes that they were in the vicinity and they would come when they heard me yelling.

     huh???
     investigators told him TM knew he was/had been talking to the police???
     Never mind how they’d know this, what is GZ doing at the time believing something was happening because of something he wasn’t told about yet?

     Yelling for the cops he’d called earlier does make sense, rather important to help them locate him, seeing he’d not given them an ADDRESS after all that time-consuming search for one.

     Though in every statement so far he was aiming the yells for help at the various neigbours who all turned around and went back inside.

     ========
     (about the recorded calls for help)
     ZIMMERMAN: That was my voice. Absolutely.
     HANNITY: That was your voice?
     ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

     Odd, first time he heard the tape he told Serino “that does’t even sound like me” and NEVER admitted it to S that it was him.

     =============
     page 5

     HANNITY: Is there anything you regret? Do you regret getting out of the car to follow Trayvon that night?
     ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
     HANNITY: Do you regret that you had a gun that night?
     ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
     HANNITY: Do you feel you wouldn’t be here for this interview if you didn’t have that gun?
     ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
     HANNITY: You feel you would not be here?
     ZIMMERMAN: I feel it was all God’s plan and for me to second guess it or judge it —
     HANNITY: Is there anything you might do differently in retrospect now that the time has passed a little bit?
     ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

     ============
     page 6
     ZIMMERMAN: No, I knew that I had discharged my firearm, and I was scared, nervous. I also thought the police were going to come and see me with the firearm and shoot me. I mean, I was terrified.

     ???? on the re-enactment he demonstrates how he holstered the gun as the police were arriving. Witnesses heard “the gun is on the ground”. The gun was holstered in a concealed holster when the cops got there.
     SO HOW WERE THE POLICE GOING TO SEE HIM WITH A FIREARM?

     He was so terrified that within 10 minutes the EMTs found all his vitals normal?
     =================
     HANNITY: What do you make of all the national media attention in this case? What does it mean to you?

     ZIMMERMAN: It’s surreal. I don’t like that they have rushed to judgment the way they have. I feel that any time they have a story that’s remotely positive, they interpret it negatively.

     Come on George, tell us ONE REMOTELY POSITIVE thing about this shooting? apart from God choosing you as his agent?

     ==========
     page 9
     ZIMMERMAN: First, I would like to readdress your question when you asked if I would have done anything differently. When you asked that I thought you were referring to if I would not have talked to the police, if I would have maybe have gotten an attorney, if I wouldn’t have taken the CVSA and that I stand by, I would not have done anything differently.

     BS BS BS — how could he think the question related to his talking to the cops without a lawyer? it came right on top of questions about (not) regretting getting out of the car, (not) regretting having a gun etc etc.

     • yes very important points. I posted above somewhere some of the same things but they must have been chewed up when BCCList imploded a while agao haha. Poor NLME.

       Very interesting about how apparently they told him Tray knew he was talking to police. I guess there must be more interviews to be released because i haven’t seen mention of this anywhere…or maybe he was told that through his connections aka MO.

       He was coached. During one of their breaks (they had many, u can see many stop/start sections that dont quite go together) O’mara would have told him that is not the right answer. So he says oops i misunderstood, i thought you meant did i regret talking to the police, doing the lie detector, but if i could take it back and do anything that means it does not end in his death then i would. COACHED. As you said, he was asked WOULD YOU GET OUT OF THE CAR….YES YES YES. Fucking liar. Hannity left his balls home i would say, he didn’t follow up on the obvious lies.

       Loved the Bold and the Beautiful moment when mid sentence he turned dramatically and spoke into the camera (Hannity must have given him direction)

       And the media are guilty of judging poor George, cause he didn’t judge Martin that night, no not at all. Besides, half of the media are doing all they can to push Georges agenda *cough* FOX NEWS *cough*.

       And he didn’t know he had killed Trayvon or that he was seriously injured, really, even though you had to climb out from under him, even though he was non responsive when you jumped on his back, even though he lay motionless in the wet grass as you paced chatting to witnesses and instructing them to make phone calls….so you think he was just being submissive George, he was just laying there in the grass because you had THE gun…..and nice of you to try and save his life…oh that’s right, you didn’t, cause he wasn’t seriously injured he was just finally doing what he was told. I hope the judge takes this shit into account like the Michael Jackson judge did when that doctor ran his mouth off before sentencing.

       A scripted sorry to people who don’t believe a word you say anymore does not excuse the callous “poor meeeeeee” whining you just subjected us too…and certainly just added to the pain of the Martins after listening to how it’s all about poor fucking George…Oh and as for O’Mara, i’m going to try and be mature about this…YOU SUCK pllltttthhhhhh!!!!!!!

       • I can’t tell if that God’s Plan means

         * he is fantastic, being chosen by God to be His agent or
         * he is innocent, it is all God’s fault

         nothing ever Georgie’s fault, well we already knew that….

         • i just think he is incapable of admitting he did anything wrong and is anything less than perfect. It’s another way of diverting blame. I have a family member that would always say the same argument, its Gods plan, he knows everything before its going to happen to justify banging other peoples husbands. Um yeah, doesn’t mean it’s right. Some people pass blame or find anything to justify their actions…well i guess it’s God will that your second wife will probably be your cell mate.

         • Allow me to interpret. “God’s plan” is that suckers send money to Zimmerman and co (via a paypall acount on O’Mara’s website) for an indefensible defense

           Reminds me of…

           *Heal me*
           **Place your hand on my fractured nose, sister, and we will both feel the healing powers of ________. But first, send me $25 as your patriotic duty to all Americans and you have the option of sending your tithes to me monthly for your convenience.**
           **As a first-timer, you should send me your wealth profile so that we can peg you as somebody interested in bettering yourself and start sending you our swamp-land for sale brochures — free of charge of course.”

       • Yeah Hannity told him to look into the camera

         “..You know, if you wanted to look into that camera and tell the American public something about George Zimmerman and about — this case with Trayvon Martin that has gotten such media attention, what would you want to tell them?

       • I didn’t watch it, I just read some things on twitter, I can’t handle his Mr Rogers neighborhood voice anymore, I knew he wouldn’t be challenged just coddled. I bet Omara won’t go on Nancy Grace or Soledad O brien with that crap, hell I bet there are going to be other offers to interview him but he will play it safe with Faux news likes who have always blamed everybody else for everything. I can tell you this, I would pay money for Nancy Grace to interview him and O’mara, they can put it on pay per view and I would buy popcorn, and settle in with a big Diet coke. I need that interview, we all knew Hannity would not help anyone but GZ, is GZ dead?? why is he getting sympathy for not minding his own damn business which caused a teenager to die. From what we are seeing from evidence, it is likely Martin didn’t do any of the injuries that GZ had and for goodness sake stop with the broken nose thing, where are the Xrays that show a broken nose? A depraved mind is definitely the definition of Zimmerman. Let us not forget this man is sitting on T.v. knowing he has lied through his teeth on that young man but yet sits there like king pumba. I know people lie to get out of things but this takes the cake. This is beyond belief. My emotions are up in the air, I feel pain in my heart for the Martins,I just can’t believe this!!!

         • wish i could give you a hug riisey. Hannity could have nailed him but of course he didn’t want to. They played it safe and still came off as a bunch of liars…he is not remorseful for anyone but himself. Omara looks nervous. This was all George, he is pulling the strings because he has the money to do so thanks to all his “fans” (excuse me while i puke a little). No sane lawyer would let their client expose themselves to an interviewer…..unless that interviewer was on board and would not ask or show anything that may make Zim look bad….gee, they can’t have had much to work with because he still came across as a liar with no remorse who is living in self-pity land.

           I send Trayvons family all my thoughts and energy. Their son would be proud of them.

       • I didn’t even know about the interview so haven’t watched…but just reading the recaps from you guys…I’m imagining in my head, GZ sitting on MOM’s lap with his hand up the back of GZs jacket in effort to make the puppet speak…they need to take that ventriloquist act on the road!

         • Yeah, except Zimmerman is the one pulling O’Mara’s strings. Not a good position for an attorney to be in — even a slimeball like O’Mara.

           • The more GZ wants to do interviews and as he stated in his jailhouse calls that his supporters should be heard, ie rallies and marches, O’mara will have less and less control over him. I expect O’mara to either let him go as a client and or be fired by his client, for not doing what he wants, regardless of his sound consel.

         • Loree says, “The more GZ wants to do interviews and as he stated in his jailhouse calls that his supporters should be heard, ie rallies and marches”

           A while back I posted a reply on MSN in response to a GZ supporter…I stated they are quick to mention the fact that all this only came to light as result of marches, rallies, etc., to have him charged. I suggested that if they felt so strongly in his innocense that they should do the same. Not that it would work in his favor. They are content hiding behind their computers, and anonymously donate money rather than be seen publicly supporting a cold-blooded killer. I mean if you feel that strongly and honestly believe in a cause you support, why not do it publicly?!

     • Thanks for the commentary! Will you be doing the same for tonight’s follow up on Hannity?

       To me, it seems like GZ answers with whatever he thinks sounds or works best in any given moment, but tries to say it in a way that he can rearrange words or meanings in the future. He thinks he can say whatever because he always leaves enough wiggle room, and think he will always be bailed out of trouble. Him saying things like “God’s Plan and it was THE GUN, not mine, hot his are all phrases to illustrate his “I HAD NO CHOICE!” point.

104. So now we bring religon into this. “It was all Gods plan”. “I pray for the Martin” “I have no regrets”. I am glad I am Pagan. Doesn’t anyone remember this guy is a known lair?

     • I am not pagan, but i agree Zimmerman is a liar and apparently, so is his attorney.

105. Trayvons parents on Fucked…i mean Fox News next..

106. A Statement from Trayvon Martin’s Family in Response to George Zimmerman’s TV Interview: Zimmerman said that he did not regret getting out of his vehicle; he did not regret following Trayvon; in fact he did not regret anything he did that night. In conclusion, he wouldn’t do anything different. He concluded it was God’s plan. “We must worship a different God because there is no way that MY GOD would have wanted George Zimmerman to KILL my teenage son.” Tracy Martin, father of Trayvon Martin

     What a despicable peace of crap, Zimmerman and O’mara are along with Hannity. Karma how far down on the list is Zimmerman?patiently waiting. He is so cocky, he shows no remorse at all. I can’t take him anymore. I don’t know how the Martins do it because I would have lost it by now.” A time to kill” would be playing in the background in my head, and I would be Samuel Jackson. It is very clear the Zimmerman portray disgust for black people, he also considers himself white and thinks he is a hero. How much money is enough Zimmerman!!

     • The Martins/Fultons have my full respect. They are fighting for their son and teaching the world a lesson in class.

       • I agree 1000%.
         The Martin/Fulton family has been cool calm and collected and wanting Justice for Trayvon Martin, their son, RIP

     • Exactly! Zimmerman’s behavior and reactions are all indicative of what he really thinks and it is all contradictory to what he says on tv.

       • Exactly. I watched that interview and I wanted to jump through the TV and body slam him right to the floor when he laughed, not once but several times. This is no joking matter. He actually said he is the only witness to the murder! I couldn’t take it, I lost it and had to walk it off.

         I wonder if it is all possible to change it to murder 1. He is a nut job to say the least.

         • I didn’t watch it on tv, but watched online at non-fox sites. I hear also that Zimmerman laughed or smiled when he said he was the only witness left standing. Again, I haven’t seen this for myself. But if that is true, I am further repulsed by Zimmerman’s greed and lack of remorse and his depravity.

107. FOX NEWS interview with Trayvons parents and Crump.

     this is a run down, not a transcript.

     Apology being shown…sorry, don’t have kids, love nephews etc
     ** not sincere, not from heart. Zim had enough time to apologise before arrest, trying to publicly apologise is trying to save face.

     Any regrets … no no no
     ** Tracy..irritated…murdered our child, what God he worships, not the same God
     ** Sybrina…why would God want that
     Self defense…George describing what happened..head into sidewalk, broken nose yelling for help
     **Crump..this interview is a gift for prosecution, trayvon not here to tell his version, credibility issue, inconsistencies.
     Was Tray walking running skipping, another part of interview, George says he’s running, he was more like skipping, going away quickly, not running from fear.
     ** Yes that is what crump is talking about …911 convo..statement said street signs, listen with your own ears
     He said punk. Could they forgive him.
     **To early for Sybrina, maybe in a few years, to hard to sit in same room. Tracy, to early to forgive someone who doesn’t even regret taking their sons life.
     RESPECT TO THE MARTINS/FULTONS….whole lotta class…I need to learn some humility from these upstanding wonderful people.

     • Ditto Jo: “RESPECT TO THE MARTINS/FULTONS….whole lotta class…I need to learn some humility from these upstanding wonderful people.”
       Everybody hear that? Let’s all take a collective deep breath. Despite everything, TM’s mother had said previously that she doesn’t hate GZ. It’s apparent she’s a religious/faithful woman. His father’s has also been only mild-mannered on camera and never shown the kind of anger we would expect. We know they could not have raised a violent son. Let’s take their example, and also per NLME’s comment earlier, going off on angry rants about GZ isn’t worth the keystrokes.

108. Thanks for continuing to follow the story. It’s much appreciated.

109. George W Bush murdered an entire nation of brown people. He thought they had a hidden weapon, but he was wrong. He profited from the killing. He also thought it was God’s plan. Fox New supported him.

     • Yes, Bush profiled them first, then pursued them, then killed them and then told lies about how it happened. And the NYT supported his run up to the war, and he destroyed the lives of our fighting soldiers, too. They weren’t on WMD, they were on Tea.

       Currently the suicide rate of veterans is higher than the number who die in battle. This, and war crimes like the ordering of military dogs for use in torture are his legacy. Whatever prison sentence GZ gets, GWB deserves x850,000 or more.

     • Yeah, but, Bush had Mexican and Hispanic family members.. (at least that’s what the argument on Fox was at the time).

       I agree with you that Zimmerman is Fox’s golden boy opportunity to push their product down to us masses and make killing for profit available to the small-fries. It’s kind of like using the Microsoft and Oracle strategies to sell stuff to the market with the most potential customers,.

110. George Zimmerman’s Phone Calls From Jail Include Plea To Quran-Burning Pastor Terry Jones
     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/17/george-zimmerman_n_1680251.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

     • Typical misleading HuffPo headline.

       What actually happened was that Zimmerman used religion to finesse nutbag Terry Jones into NOT gathering his nutbag following and holding a rally that would have only served to inflame passions and further strain race relations.

       Zimmerman hasn’t done many smart things so far, but this was one of the smartest.

       unitron

       • I agree on that point. Like I said earlier, Zimmerman probably had no clue he was standing with the nutjobs bigots of the world until his noteriety for killing a black teen.

111. At the beginning of the interview, GZ was asked to start at the beginning of the night. He starts out saying that he was going to Target to do the grocery shopping on Sunday nights, because that was the only night…., and then very awkwardly, backtracks to say Well, when mentoring the kids, that was the night that they would shop etc for the week. Very odd place to insert that for sympathy points. He didn’t make it clear but was he saying that since they were so busy mentoring the kids, sunday night was the only night they had time to do the shopping? however, was it ever claimed that they were still mentoring the kids as of the week of 2/26/12?

     • No. He was saying that if he didn’t do the grocery shopping or mentor kids (actually, I don’t thnk he did it, but rather it was his wife doing the mentoring), “they don’t got nobody”. All I’m trying to say is that he borrowed a line and some grifter behavior from his mother.

112. I am so amazed how his story keeps changing SH did not challenge GZ at all. I was hoping he would ask him how many times was your head slammed against the concrete, but he asked how many times he was punched. I never heard of so many coincidences when it comes to GZ during this matter:

     1. TM attacked him for no reason.
     2. Not following him just walking in the same direction to get an address.
     3. Could not see in the dark because his flash light was not working, but on 911 call neighbor sees 2 flashlights on.
     4. Head repeatedly being slammed against concrete but injuries don’t match.
     5. During confrontation his only words were “I don’t have problem man” and screaming for “help”

     6. Hannity involvement and offering to pay GZ legal fees, now is strange that after GZ talked with hannity his lawyers all of a sudden just upped and quit and now there that jailhouse convo have been released and using the SH as code makes me wonder. If anyone else can think any other coincidences please add them because i am finding the least likely coincidence to happen this guy has claimed and its crazy!!!

     • One thing cool about the Hannity interview (so I’m told) is that Zimmerman admits he moved from the concrete to the grass. He later contradicts himself by saying he shot Trayvon Martin as he was getting his head smashed into the concrete he already claims to have moved from.

113. As a breather from the Hannity interview nausea and depression, I shall post an addendum to my new hypothesis that someone other than GZ (most likely Osterman) saw Trayvon enter The Retreat, and GZ went out to look for an intruder…

     thcoupi’s surveillance vid analysis has GZ driving slowly by the mailbox area from 7:07:15 to 7:07:33, then making a U-turn and parking toward the other end of TTL, facing West, toward the clubhouse at 7:08:40. Thus, he’s taken his surveillance position before he calls the cops. But at 7:11:10 there’s background noise on GZ’s call that sounds like him turning the steering wheel sharply and then shifting back into Park. So I’m thinking the sequence of events may well have gone as follows:

     A. TM first tells DeeDee ‘a man is staring at him’ as GZ inches by the mailboxes.

     B. GZ continues East on TTL, makes the U-Turn and parks more or less as tchoupi’s map shows it. The truck is on the North side of TTL, facing West, giving GZ a good yet more discrete view of TM at the mailboxes. He calls the police moments after parking.

     C. TM begins walking toward home, East down TTL. As he gets closer to the truck, he sees GZ is still watching him, and that GZ is on the phone. He’s scared enough of GZ to want to head home, but he’s not sure enough of GZ’s intent to seek an alternate route home. So he decides to walk past the truck, but with his flight response already primed. This is where he tells DeeDee he will walk fast, and then run from the back.

     D. TM passes GZ’s truck taking a wide berth (‘circling’) and is now behind GZ.

     E. GZ can’t see TM well through the rear view mirrors. By being behind him, TM (i.e. ‘one of those assholes’) is, in effect, getting away.

     F. So at 7:11:10 GZ makes yet ANOTHER U-turn, re-parking facing East on the South side of TTL so he can have a good view of TM’s continued path. He does not turn his headlights on before turning.

     G. TM hears the truck move and glances back. He is now sure something is amiss, since the same truck that slowed as it went by the mailboxes, that held the man looking at him funny, has now turned around just after he passed it. He knows the man is still in the truck because he hasn’t heard the door open. He walks for a ways in hopes of disguising the fact he’s aware he’s being surveilled.

     H. 31 seconds pass between the time GZ starts to turn the truck and when he sees TM running. This would be just enough time for TM to get from the truck to near enough to the T that he could break South. The tomenhomes on the East side of TTL are the nearest point where TM can put a large obstacle between himself and GZ’s sightline. So, that’s the point where he runs, as he nears the T.

     I. GZ sees TM head down the T, and gets out of the truck in pursuit.

     H. When the operator asks “Are you following him” and GZ says ‘Yeah’ only 10 seconds have past from the time GZ shut the door of the Ridgeline. This is not not enough time for GZ to reach the T, at any pace. Thus, at the moment he says he’s following TM, he does NOT in fact have TM in sight, since TM has rounded the corner.

     I. GZ turns the corner of the T as he had seen TM do, but he does not see TM after doing so. He runs for a few more seconds and then stops.

     J. Perhaps there is enough light and GZ gauges the distance to the South end of the sidewalk to be far enough away that he concludes TM could not have reached the end of the sidewalk and headed for his presumed destination of the East gate.

     K. Thus, perhaps GZ guesses TM is hiding somewhere along the sidewalk, and decides to continue looking around instead of going back to his truck to wait for the police.

     I had long been of the opinion that it was more likely TM fled South down TTL, that GZ followed him along that route, and TM found some patch of darkness in which to elude him. However, in the wake of tchoupi’s deductions from the surveillance videos, a number of pieces of physical evidence are fitting together, along with DeeDee’s account (highly questionable on its own) to suggest the scenario above is more likely.

     That still leaves the big question: how did the scuffle wind up in John’s back yard?

     Here is a completely conjectural scenario:

     – – –

     GZ continues slowly South along the sidewalk as he talks to dispatcher Sean. He changes his mind about meeting the officers at his truck either because this is the point he concludes TM did’nt have enough time to leave the area and must be hiding, or he actually gets some clue as to where TM might be.

     GZ looks for TM’s hiding spot stealthily. TM looks out from his cover and does not see GZ. He tells DeeDee he thinks he lost his pursuer. He emerges from hiding and continues toward home. In the interim, GZ’s searching has closed the distance, and GZ emerges from the shadows right behind TM.

     TM stops to confront GZ, “Why are you following me?” A bit of a shoving match begins, TM’s headset falls, and the call with DeeDee is cut off. But neither man goes to the ground at this point. At this point they are considerably South of the point of the shooting. GZ reacts to the shoving (which was probably initiated by TM) by pulling his gun.

     GZ then leads TM back toward the truck at gunpoint. Acting like a TV cop, he does not explain himself, he just gives orders, and when TM tries to speak, he just tells the young man to shut up and walk.

     TM has no idea WTF is going on, and is looking for a chance to get away. As they get closer to the T, TM senses GZ is distracted for a second, and pops him in the nose. GZ drops his gun, but he staggers only a little, and before Trayvon can turn to flee he grabs him and pulls him down to the ground. A bit of wrestling ensues in which GZ suffers the cuts on the back of his head, but it’s all ‘grab-ass’ and neither man throws any actual punches at the other.

     GZ’s goal is to regain possession of his gun, which he does, and at that point the scuffle stops. But things have escalated due to the more physical nature of the scuffle and the fact that GZ is quite angry that he has been bloodied. He aims the gun at TM with bad intent. HE tells Martin something to the effect of “You’re going to die tonight, motherfucker.” Trayvon freaks out and begins the anguished screams heard on W11’s 911 call. He might be on the bottom, or on the top. It doesn’t matter because Zimmerman has a gun.

     The two men are in this position for what seems like an eternity to each of them. The police do not arrive. No neighbors actually come out of their homes to help. The tension becomes unbearable and Trayvon does SOMETHING. Maybe he goes for the gun, or maybe he just tries to get away. It doesn’t matter. GZ is in ‘Don’t move or I’ll shoot’ mode, and Trayvon moves. Zimmerman fires into his heart…

     – – –

     Now, I’ll admit this scenario seems implausible on it’s face, but the whole incident is implausible. I mean, there’s a very good chance the whole confrontation resulted from GZ’s super-secretive Air Marshall buddy making a chance sighting of Trayvon entering The Retreat through the shortcut. We’re already in TV-show-plot weird. And this new scenario would at least explain why there were no signs of a fight in the forensics: no defensive bruising on the arms of the some-time bar bouncer, no offensive wounds or DNA on the hands of the young man alleged to have been administering a beat down, no evidence of the kinds of internal or surface wounds that would result from a head being pounded against any hard surface…

     One thing that could blow this kind of speculation out of the water would be a to-the-second log of the end time of DeeDee’s call, as this scenario posits a lapse of time between the end of that call and the start of the melee behind 1221 TTL. And if DeeDee’s call ended just seconds before W11 connected with 911 at 7:16:11 that would strongly suggest the initial and only encounter between GZ and TM happened toward the North end of the T.

     Anyway, what does anyone think of these musings?

     • The shadows chasing went south to north. First argument was north and moved south. Then fight and shooting.

       So 3 encounters. Or 3 stops on the one encounter. Won’t go quietly at gunpoint to the T and then start arguing loudly. “Don’t shoot” was never heard, or anything to indicate a gun visible at that point.

       The debris field is from 2 visits to the same spot. And GZ may be telling the truth about the smack on the nose at the T.

       Two flashlights. Small one on = big one not working or NOT THERE. Why not pocket the big one if it wasn’t working?

       First contact halfway down the path. GZ shining the big torch in TM’s eyes. TM takes a swing with bag containing tea. Phone, tea and flashlight fall.

       They keep running north, GZ takes out small light. More argument and shouting. TM throws a punch. GZ goes down. Loses small flashlight.

       TM runs south again. Looks for phone. Perhaps to call the cops. Finds and pockets the tea. MAY find phone. GZ turns up. More yelling. GZ draws gun. TM tackles him to the ground and tries to stop him lifting the gun arm. Screams for help in holding him.

       Total 170 ft for round trip, 30 secs at full run. 60 secs allowing for stopping for the punching. Add 60 secs for yelling for help. There’s the “missing” 2 minutes.

       • @whonoze & @aussie

         Great analysis! I have often wondered if GZ is telling the truth that TM asked him if he had a problem. (I think possibly an all too convenient word choice considering his past with the bar fight w officers) Is GZ’s story of how the physical confrontation (2nd one?) a continuation of DeeDee’s story from after the phone cuts off, or even possibly the argument that is going on in the background at the time?

         • I think the phone cuts off at the first meeting, which is just a brief Why? what? kind of exchange with one grab at TM’s arm or clothing. This is all DeeDee hears. She doesn’t hear the rest of the chase up to near the T, nor the fighting when TM returns to the first spot to recover his phone.

           There is always SOME truth in GZ stories. Just he changes the time or sequence, and often the actor, ie he says he did stuff the other party did, or claims the other did something he did. (Look at his counter-injunction against the ex-fiancee, he claims she did everything to him that she said he did to her).

           The key-flashlight being up near the T has several possible explanations. That’s no problem.

           Let GZ explain to us how his BIG FLASHLIGHT ended up at the shooting scene. The one that didn’t work. The one that because of that would not be in his hands. The one that he’d not have been able to KEEP in his hands on a 30 – 50 ft scrambling and swatting at TM chasing him (on his version per the reenactment).

         • Aussie,

           You’ve got a good point here with the flashlight.
           Why the one that works is at the T and the other one is 50ft away near the body?

         • Definitely waiting for his explanation on how the working flashlight ends up at the T, but the non-working one sticks with him til the southern most part of the fight. I’m also waiting for his explanation on the logistics of how they end up in the position on the ground he claims. TM would have to walk alongside of him all those feet then walk around in front or to the other side of him to then push him down to where they are facing north away from the direction of his car. In my mind, in his story, their heads would be north, but in the direction of his car, or straight north, but not pointing towards the concrete.

       • “The shadows chasing went south to north.”

         The defense is going to hate this statement. It buries them. Expect W2’s statement to become a focal point.

         • I really think they will take it and twist it. They will say she didn’t know what she saw, and that she only saw blurs. Furthermore, the defense will most likely try to say she never saw two figures, but one, and that the one was TM going to confront.

         • @qetno –

           The problem then becomes what’s wrong with Zimmerman’s hearing that he could hear a running man approach in order to sneak attack him.

         • Good point. I assume it’ll be along the lines of “TM pulled a Matrix.” 😛 Oh, oh…he was also wearing an invisibility cloak while pulling said Matrix move. 😀

           • I have to admit, I did watch the interview, it made me sick. I do have a question to put to this group, maybe it was already answered. First off, Zimmerman in the interview was very passionate about his version of what happen, especially the part of when TM had him on the ground and was suppose to bashing GZ head on the concert, I don’t recall how many time GZ said that happen. I have made statements about GZ injuries, being minor, only two small abrasion on GZ head that were already healing, lack of blood, despite the pictures. TM girlfriend as I recall said TM was breathing heavily due to exhaustion. TM at 158 pounds, already having diffculty breathing, takes on a guy at 208 pounds. Now looking at some of TM pictures I would say he really does not do alot of weight lifting. So my question is could TM really have the strenght to do what GZ claims? Further GZ says TM is making statement that he is going to kill GZ, yet I can not find a single witnesses make any referrence to hearing voices saying anything like that, unless TM whispered the threats in GZ ear? Any input is welcomed.

         • @John W –

           Nope…Zimmerman again sat there like a potted plant and provided no resistance to the backward motion of his head towards the concrete. Haven’t you heard of shaken baby syndrome????

           I have no doubt that he could resist any attempts by Trayvon to push his head into the concrete. I have no doubt that he could roll Trayvon if Trayvon was on top. I have no doubt that he could physically over power Trayvon. Some suggest that Trayvon run immediately down the T, but I don’t know if that is true. He could have ran a great distance and thus would have been very winded.

       • You raise a good point. If Zimmerman had deemed the large flashlight broken and unfunctioning, why not pocket it. He kept it handy for a reason. The police tested it and found it to be operational.

         • That kind of flashlight works fine when you don’t need for it to.

           : – )

           In other words, based on my own experiences, I have no problem believing that the sound is him banging the flashlight to get it to work.

           unitron

         • Yep I’ve owned many like that too.

           Serino got the big one going, no trouble (also commenting you need to bang them).

           There was nothing wrong with the big one. All the talk of it not working was an excuse for hanging around the T long enough to TM to sneak up on him.

           It was working, he shone it on Trayvon, probably into his eyes, at the fist encounter. He LOST IT when Trayvon took a swing at him. That is why he had to use the SMALL ONE while chasing TM up to the T. Maybe using it as a light, maybe more to have the key ready for opening the truck to put the prisoner in. If by this time he’s got a good grip on TM, who may have slipped on the wet grass, giving GZ time to catch up with him.

           So, our boy breaks free AND knocks/pushes him down, just below the T just like GZ “truthfully” tells us. The key/light combo gets dropped. Trayvon runs back down to pick up his dropped phone to call for help, pockets the drink while he’s at it. This again lets GZ catch up to him, with disastrous consequences.

           • Sorry, I’ve had too much experience with flashlights that work when they want to, and know all too well the sound of banging them to get them to work to assume without further evidence anything other than Zimmerman stuck the non-working big flashlight in a pocket from which it later escaped and turned on the little one on the keychain.

             And it’s probably only “big” by comparison, maybe a 2 AA size.

             If it had been a 3 D cell Mag-lite, that would bring a whole different dynamic into play.

             unitron

     • oh, Whonoze, that works on your route as above. Also works on older TTL idea, if they go down TTL and through one of unpaved cut-throughs between buildings. I’d favour the second (more southerly) one.

     • I’ve been waiting to find out the end time of DeeDee’s last call too. It started at 7:12pm and supposedly went for 4 minutes. This should put the ending at 7:16pm, just 56 seconds before the murder took place. But it’s been mentioned that these times were rounded or approximate. I’ve long felt that an accurate end time would tell us a lot.
       Many folks have put the start of the confrontation at about 7:15:30 or so, yet DeeDee should have still been connected for 30 more seconds.

       • Marilyn, apparently that company charges by full minutes so only records full minutes. So 7.12 would be anything from 7:12.01 to 7:12.59, and the ending can be as early as 7:16 on the dot. That would be when it cut off, which could be say 5 seconds after she stopped hearing anything (the difference between the headset pulling out and the phone falling to the ground). 7:15.20 or so is when GZ hangs up. First 911 call comes in at 7:16.43. But he’s already spotted Trayvon before he hangs up, ie when he says “oh actually… get them to call me…”. The first confrontation can be within seconds of that.

         • Aussie.

           GZ’s call starts at 7:09:34pm and lasts 4min & 7sec.
           So, GZ hangs up at 7:13:41pm not 7:15:20.

           So, it makes >2min between the end of the call and the start of the confrontation

           • The recording extends a few seconds beyond the time when Zimmerman hangs up.

             On the version here

             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

             the call itself runs 4:05

             unitron

         • First 911 call is at 7:16:11 PM

           Minute-by-Minute Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death

           unitron

       • “Many folks have put the start of the confrontation at about 7:15:30 or so, yet DeeDee should have still been connected for 30 more seconds.”

         Not if her call actually started at 7:11:30 PM instead of 7:12 PM.

         Go here and read

         Minute-by-Minute Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death

         unitron

         • Thank you very much unitron. I had not seen this timeline and I am absolutely delighted it exists. It’s now on my favorite places. Kudos to Susan Simpson for this massive amount of work.

     • “We’re already in TV-show-plot weird” LOL, at least you acknowledge that.

       • Any TV show this unbelievably written I wouldn’t watch.

         GZ’s version makes whonoze’s Academy Award material for best story board.

       • Yes, but we have the luxury to muse. We’re only in “la la land” until we find that the evidence supports the theory. For example, if we had not theorized on gossamer info, that GZ might have had a spotter, the nature of MO’s appearance would have been less significant than it now appears to be.

         Don’t forget, we’ve had many, many more theories on these BCC boards and we’ve knocked down and abandoned a lot of them “for cause”. Once we have evidence to exclude a theory we tend to drop it really quick here. That we continue to come up with more, means we’re looking for leads to pursue as any good investigator should be.

         I’ll bet the police have made and abandoned even more and wilder theories, since that’s what moves investigations forward. You can’t simply start with a belief that you can know what every piece of evidence means, or that the needed answer will somehow expose themselves without effort.

         • This is, probably, one of the very first crowd sourced parallel to the police crime investigations.

           unitron

           • Yeah, this is the place for la la land. We creatively postulate theories and then weigh the evidence against them and test their veracity. I admit I am a “creative thinker”, but it takes creativity and work to arrive at what is possible. As long as we are willing to recognize facts and reconcile them instead of ignoring them, we are following a valid approach, just like scientists.

             • And of course the real scientific method is someone puts forth a theory and all of their jealous, backstabbing contemporaries in the field try to rip it to shreds.

               If they can’t, we make a little progress.

               unitron

             • Yes, yes and yes… I remember we started on the earlier versions of this board (NLME you should keep the links to the earlier board in case someone wants to see how we evolved). All we knew about was SYG and NW. SYG, we believed, depended on GZ having a right to be where he was, and NW, regrettably seemed to give him that right. So, all we had was a lamentable tragedy to discuss, with the hope that the SYG law might be changed to prevent future tragedy.

               Then we learned that NW, actually would have prohibited GZ from being where he was, if it’s rules were followed. Thus, SYG, actually gave TM equal, if not superior, rights to claim self defense.

               Closer examination to determine whose rights were legally superior, we discovered that GZ was merely contriving a story that would, if believed, excuse his violations of NW rules.

               So, from there we’ve been studying GZ’s claims, against witness statements, to attempt to separate the truth from the false.

               No where do I see any indication that anyone here, wants GZ to be guilty, based on flawed logic or lies etc. And we would grant him a right to be legally innocent, if, he or we, could prove that what he did, fell within the law. As I read, I still see us rejecting paths to GZ guilt that simply don’t hold water! A feature that you won’t find a counterpart to on the pro GZ sites.

               As more data/evidence/testimony comes in, we have more information to constrict our “voyages” with. Even so, as a clearer picture emerges, we still are finding the same conclusions. Conclusions which are made more compelling, because GZ’s stories don’t add up, and because the motivations for the creation of those stories is clear. GZ is simply trying very hard, to cover up his NW rule breaking.

               Had he told the truth and admitted he broke the NW rules, he might very well have gotten a better reception for his central and critical claim. Instead, for some very strange reason, he chose to make a mess of his own ability to defend himself, by telling a boat load of lies. Lies which have ensnared his wife in legal trouble, and may very well ensnare his good friend Osterman as well, if not Taafee.

           • Never thought about it like that. You may be right. This should happen far more often in my opinion.

             • “This should happen far more often in my opinion”

               Or far less often, if you know what I mean.

               unitron

         • Yes Lonnie, this board has progressed, and in a cohesive fashion, bringing along with it a conscious board history. Reading this investigative mystery story unfolding here has been fascinating. (Yes, we immediately knew MO’s significance when he was spotted at the bank). I used to love those early imaginatively verbal computer games and it’s been like working on figuring out one of those. I read a number of boards and none of them have progressed in this way. They mostly remain pretty static in the overall opinions expressed, or reactive to the day’s news.

           • Which is why it’s such a joy, to go back and read from the first board forward, remembering how we evolved from there, where we had so little info, but seem to have been pretty good tracking along, as the later evidence releases illuminate.

             Back then, for instance, NLME saw two possible entrances: Front Gate or Cut Through. Not knowing about TM’s previous visits, I was a fan of Front Gate, at least until Aussie(??) explained how familiar TM should have been. Then it made sense to go with the cut through.

             Comes now, so much later and so much more info, I began to wonder what had made me such a fan of Front Gate. I now realize it was because the mail boxes seemed like the most credible start point, and the front gate seemed to tie better with that, than the really long odds against GZ spotting TM at the cut through by Taaffe’s.

             Now we’re cycling back to examine the cut through near FT’s place, but this time to postulate that it as MO who have been the first to spot TM. Some may say there’s no conspiracy in here, but that’s probably ignoring the fact that conspiracies, by their very nature, are covered up and hidden. So, the only clue anyone is going to get about one being afoot, is that the anomalies appear to require it. So, if the simpler theory is taken as true, then the conspiracy has succeeded in covering itself.

     • What can be prove in court? That’s what I think.

       However, there is what can be proven in court and there is what the “H” happened? I’ll entertain the latter and make notes on the former.

       And don’t forget there is the possibility of a confederate turning state’s evidence (Osterman and Shellie are prime candidates if they are under threat of indictment for moving the truck and/or perjury about the money, etc) and there is the remote possibility that GZ will confess. We might know someday but right now we just can’t know.

       But I think the timing of the “now he’s coming towards me” and “these axxholes always get away” and “effing goons” all put GZ at the first bend in TTL WHERE HE MARKED THE MAP and crossed it out quickly.

       

       The rest of the part where he’s talking to NE dispatcher Sean is possible, and probable, meaning I mostly agree with what whonoze wrote above. I have one big exception and that is where was GZ when he started his conversation with Sean.

       I don’t see GZ at the final parking spot when he starts his call, and he’s insistent in his recall when played the recording that he is “by the clubhouse” and he says TM is “near the clubhouse/Yeah” when asked on the recording. He’s NOT parked at the cut thru at that time, IMO

       IMO TM does not have enough time to pass his truck at the cut thru parking spot unless he is walking quite fast, faster than jogging fast, even , and since he continues ON for 31 seconds or so until “sh*t he’s running” you have to assume that TM at a similar speed would be all the way out of sight by then, even if he turned south down the middle of TTL and never took the cut thru path. This is what I call the “long tail” of TM’s walk from the clubhouse. And it creates the obvious impression that, coming around halfway in the move that GZ is also closer than halfway to where TM runs, in order for TM to pass the car in the middle of that description of his movements.

       Because of that and how fast I personally walk given I am the same height as TM, (around 5-7 fps) I think TM walked from “near the clubhouse?/yeah” (GZ) and/or “the mail shed thing” (Dee Dee) and past GZ sitting in his car at the first band in TTL WHERE HE MARKED HIS MAP (goddamnit, people look at that map) and then GZ can be heard making a u turn and presumably following TM to wherever he ultimately parked, which I do think he probably told the truth about. Was there another car in front of him? Who knows, and there was room for one, so that’s still a mystery to me. But the timing of TM’s walk puts TM more or less by the ubiquitous ford truck when he breaks for the dog walk, taking the grass path around the corner. This puts the timing of GZ’s exit and door slam to indicate GZ says “effing goons/punks/etc” RIGHT WHEN TM disappears form view. I timed the move first and went to look at the NE call second and the timing was uncanny. “He ran” is the end of his hunt but “effing goons” is the point where GZ claims “i wasn’t reeeeally following him, see, since i couldn’t see him… etc” He prevaricates like a schoolboy and gets away with it a lot with SPD since they didn’;t have the time (or inclination) we’ve had to examine it all. They knew he was lying, and weren’t too worried about how and where precisely – just enough to confront him and get his position set in stone – that when caught, he lies more or claims he can’t recall. What else do you truly need to know? We are beating a dead horse here, mostly. The task is to prove it was murder, and lies are lies and proof of nothing, sadly except that the guy’s a liar, not that he’s a murderer beyond a reasonable doubt.

       GZ clearly jogs to the T and bangs on his flashlight there, unable to see TM who I speculate never really left John’s back yard. The timing is obvious and exact, and the simplest explanation for his move and actions, and he himself admits “pausing” there.

       GZ is at the T facing RVC and looking down the sidewalk but not able to see TM in the darkness, esp if TM is standing against the dark bg of 1211’s sun room or the hedges south of them. TM is “behind” GZ in some respect, in that GZ would have to turn back or look way over his shoulder to se TM. GZ has a bum flashlight, is distracted and moves on. If his quarry/prey whatever was fleeing down the dog walk sidewalk south he’d see him, he thinks, so he goes on to RVC.

       There is no evidence the TM went anywhere else than around the tan bag and the shell casing from the bullet that killed him. Why assume he went anywhere else? His phone had just rang again and he’d left the roadway where the creep car was following him. Cars don’t drive between toewnhomes, so he stops and relates his adventure to Dee Dee. He thinks he’s safe and “by his house,” and relatively speaking he was by this house – he’d just walked all the way back from 7Eleven.

       I tend to think GZ did go to RVC but after getting there hangs up w dispatch and walks north to see if TM took the E-W run of RVC. Then having done so he realizes he’s the rat who checked out all the dead ends but the first one, and so GZ returns to the T. If a rat gets to a dead end in a maze and turns back, has he given up looking for the cheese? If you throw a ball into the weeds, does the dog stop chasing it? GZ never for one second was returning to his vehicle, IMO. He did return TOWARDS his vehicle when he want back to the T, keychain flashlight lit but again LOOK AT THE MAP. There is a line, faintly visible that seems to me to show he walked to right where the flashlight was found, a bit south of the T. I’ve marked my interpretation of the line in red here.

       

       it’s part of a whole set many of you have already seen that supports what I wrote above. But this is speculative and questions what can be seen on the bad copy of the map GZ marked with SIngleton. I think it shows a mark frmo RVC to the keychain flashlight spot. Do others see what I see? I’d give up beer for a month to see the real map and not this sh*tty zerox.

       What happened there, and how did the fight start? I have no idea. But I think the statements and evidence fully support the idea the punch to the nose happened near John’s back yard. And GZ is lying about whatever he says happened.

       Keep in mind the prosecution has to prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that this liar is a murdering one. I think they have him dead to rights proving using his own words that he is lying about how he came to be on the scene all the way up to the moment he is at RVC hanging up on dispatch.

       From there they plan to get a jury to convict him on more circumstantial evidence and his diminished (to minus zero) credibility. If GZ said it, it must be suspect will be the jury’s thought by the time the prosecution gets to what happened at the T and in John’s back yard. Then they have the stumbling and the lack of recall and credibility of that to introduce. He can hem and haw about the stumbling, but he’s never once said what the heck Trayvon was doing while he left the batters box and stumbled all the way to the pitcher’s mound. It fits the EXACT PATTERN however of his other, proven lies. “When in doubt, leave it out” and “when confronted, George has punted.” ie made something up on the spot and glossed over it to get to the good stuff, the cries for help or the circling my car, etc. or just say “I can’t remember.”

       Because the move form the corner of TTL to the cut thru and the following on foot beyond are EASILY proven lies from GZ that are proven with his own words. Who can the defense call to cross-examine to refute his own words? Father Time? Google Maps? GZ told investigators he was on RVC when he said “he ran,” and that he got there without jogging himself and that it was “windy.” He’s lied all the way up to the moment he walks into an altercation… is that when he started telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or did he keep up the pattern? Ask the jury.

       And look at the map. Please. Please look at the map. It’s GZ’s map and he marked it.

       And one more thing. Look at the map.

       The map.

       map.

       • One more time for good measure…

         THE MAP, PEOPLE!!! THE MAP! Look at it.

         As always, a pleasure to read your analysis. I’m not sure I agree with TM staying in John’s yard the whole time. It really pains me we don’t know DeeDee’s account of the time gap before losing each other and meeting again.

         • Thanks. Seriously though, didn’t this whole blog start with some speculative maps trying to discern where GZ and TM were going and how they came to meet? Finally, some weeks ago the state releases a map in the killer’s own handwriting and no one bothers to examine it… blows my mind.

           I saw that yellow tarp in a news video in what, late March / early April and said to myself and on blogs, “the location of the body alone is going to prove this guy is lying. Look how far south it is!”

           At that time we only had GZ’s surrogates to tell his tale, and so I set out to see what was possible and what wasn’t given the NE call audio recording, and quickly figured out his car was somewhere where Trayvon could pass him in around 34 seconds, or a distance of some 175 feet at most, IMO. Then when we did hear his actual LYING statements to investigators I almost fell off my chair astounded at the obviousness of the lies, and what the pattern of the lies were, and why he told them and what EXACTLY he was covering for. To me it’s as clear as crystal glass that he parked near the clubhouse and then moved to the cut thru… it’s the simplest solution, he marked it on a map and it resolved 90% of his inconsistencies and contradictions about where he was at what time in the call. Of course he’s lying his arse off but you can see where and why and how if you just put the car where he marked it.

           I feel like Noah taking to the unicorns to come out of the rain however when I see people still entertaining the notion that he parked by the cut thru to make his call. It’s NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. IT DID NOT HAPPEN THAT WAY because it CAN’T.

           I know people on blogs aren’t supposed to appear crazy or stuck on one idea but that’s me, right now. I’m the fool on the hill and I’ll stay there until someone joins me or proves me wrong. LOOK AT THE FREAKING MAP.

           This is how I feel, emotionally. This is humor – but it’s the “put on the glasses that make you see the truth” fight scene from THAY LIVE.

           As for TM staying in Johns yard, we just have ZERO ZERO ZERO evidence he went anywhere else. His phone rang just as he was about to run, and then he ran for a short sprint around the corner and he probably saw GZ pass the first time but was not sure if it was the creepy car guy or not, and he seems to have said as much to Dee Dee. She admonishes him to keep running, and even if he had walked slow he would have made it home and Chad would have his skittles, end of story (until GZ shot someone else, or himself, no doubt.) So I don’t think he went anywhere, except maybe up to where the tan bag was after the missing minutes to see if the guy was coming back or not. His going anywhere else is just speculation with zero basis for proof of any kind to ever be found, unless GZ decides to confess and happens to know and can tell a credible tale, and that’s a tall order. It’s just the simplest solution to the puzzle and it fits, and it will fit in a courtroom, too. Even Dee Dee says TM said he’s GOING to walk. She doesn’t say she knows he is currently walking. He’s GOING to walk (now, having previously run) is my understanding of what she is saying.

           Draw some more circles on a map, be my guest but I don’t see the merit on so doing. There was a gap between these two individuals and someone closed it. I think the scattered debris and GZ’s pattern of lies strongly suggests it was he who closed the gap, and that his calls for help were to get assistance in detaining the youth, who fought to get away. GZ never has a story for what he did with his hands because IMO his hands were clutching TM’s hoodie the whole time.

           “When in doubt, leave it out” is the pattern of GZ’s lies. “When they confront, punt, George, punt.” He can’t recall what he did with his hands, and in the “re-eneactment” video he THINKS he did some patty-cake with TM, and pantomimes some open faced slaps. What a liar.

       • Good analysis but I have to agree with QETNO, that is that TM didn’t stay by John’s.

         There are evidences from witnesses that contradict the idea that TM was static.

         DeeDee (wit 8) states that TM was already tired of running when GZ cornered him. She is very clear that it’s actually the reason why he refuses to run again.
         She also indicates that after cornering TM, GZ chased him and was catching him up.
         Finally, she says that right before she heard the bump, she could hear in GZ’s voice that he was tired (exhausted).

         Wit 2 saw the shadow of 1 person running north by her house which is located south to the scuffle spot.

         Wit 6 & 17 heard the argument moving toward them.

         Wit 11 heard the argument moving from north to south by her back porch.

         So, it clearly was dynamic.

       • Willis

         instead of going north to check the e-w section of RVC , wouldn’t he go south on RVC? he’s in the middle of a u-turn when TM disappears, can’t be sure if he took the doggie path or went through to RVC? because that doubt is GZ’s ONLY reason for going to RVC, the address story is BS.

         “Hell, he’s not here either, maybe he IS hiding on a porch”… cut through an unpaved path between buildings….. putting him a fraction south of the porch or cut through that TM is just emerging from, feeling safe.

         This puts them spot on for being seen chasing south to north… by someone 1 house up from that doggie – RVC cut through (W19… tchoupi’s imgur map of witness locations just shows half of this cut through at the bottom).

         I agree with you TM would not have to be on his own porch. He has plenty of time to get there, but that doesn’t allow enough time for the later events. The nearness implied by DeeDee’s “by dad house” is relative.

         The MAP the MAAAAAPP
         He crossed out that first position. Put himself directly into the second position. Because admitting there WERE 2 positions, especially ones involving u-turns, is admitting he was FOLLOWING. Which he KNOWS wreck his SYG claim. After that he makes the street-sign excuse to be “just going the same way” .

         So you think the nose-punching happened in John’s backyard? how does the key-light get to be only about 8 ft south of the T? how did witnesses hear the argument move from the T towards John’s?

         • While first listening to his non-911 call, my imagination saw him actually watching Treyvon, and watching him closely from the truck. I mean, I felt Treyvon was right there. I did not realize until later that the distance was so far if George was parked at the cutoff at the beginning of the call. I had those streets making virtually 2 quick turns in my head, and until I saw the overhead maps, and registered vague puzzlement, I still had the picture of George being right there, looking at the kid in my head from the call. Willis, I’m sure you’re right. The insane story of him being parked at the clubhouse is, insane. And neither could he have been at the cutoff – it’s just too far for the rapid action and details he describes.
           I can’t interject this into any conventional wisdom pool, but I personally include a slow speed chase in my telling of this tale to anyone who wants to listen.

         • I dint claim to know what happpened on the dog walk path but someone closed a gap and the evidence all shows this gap was coded towards trayvons innocent path to home and not GZs in nicely path to(wards) his vehicle.

           I soul speculate that George left RVC area and was where his key were found when his flashlight illuminated TM or his reflictive shoes ( see yellow tarp photos for a glimpse of his reflective-tape shoe ). I think GZ dropped his key reaching for his phone or gun and TMs first words were in response to these actions.

           What was TM doing by the tan bag? Talking to dee dee, and peeking in the direction a stranger went. Once TM saw a flashlight moving towards him, he decided not to run because he wasn’t doing anything wrong. He allowed GZ to close the gap by standing his ground and when they met there was an argument and GZ tried to detain TM.

           Can this be proven In court beyond a reasonable doubt? IANAL. But propel are convicted on circumstantial evidence every day and GZ is clearly and demonstratively lying in his account all the way up to the moment he reached RVC, and the pattern of lies is obvious as well. He’s omitted illegal or inculpatiry events and invented exculpatory actions.

           His testimony strongly suggests he was punched where he fell and that the stumbling 45.5 feet never happened.

           I’ve not seen all the discovery – the state claims multiple witnesses to a chase.

           Are they bluffing?

       • One more point: No everything about this case needs to be PROVEN, in court. A jury also has a right to decide between two competing offers and select the one it believe is the most likely one, on their path towards determining their verdict.

         Thus, you may not be able to prove that the accused did not shoot the victim, but, if the jury finds that to hold such a view, requires them to also believe that the accused jumped over the moon, well… The verdict is not going to be pretty.

     • I think Whonoze is right about the gear sounds we hear in Dispatch call and believe that GZ was following Tray while on the phone. The gear changes happen at the times indicated below. He seems to change gear in response to his describing Tray’s actions. Here are my thoughts and believe it works with Tchoupi’s clubhouse videos.

       7:09:34 start of call
       7:09:50 into DRIVE- for 15s. “He’s up to no good”
       7:10:05 into 1st GEAR- travelling slowly on TTL for next 30s.& pulls into driveway to turn around
       7:10:35 into REVERSE for 5s. ( 4 faint beeps parking sensors) – backing up where sign is on grass
       7:10:40 into DRIVE to straighten out for 3s.
       7:10:43 into PARK facing WEST on TTL for 7s.
       7:10:50 into DRIVE but keeps foot on the break pedal – “Something’s wrong with him ”
       7:11:05 once Tray has passed him takes foot off break pulls into a driveway
       7:11:13 into REVERSE “These assholes…
       7:11:16 cranks steering wheel “woosh woosh”
       7:11:19 into Park for 22s.

       • I had thought those thumps were gear changes, and noted them as possibly such on the 2nd version of my YouTube timestamping GZ’s call. But they could also be wiper blades, and there was enough rain at that time for GZ to have had to clear the window now and then in order to see.

         Again, tchoupi’s analysis has GZ parked on TTL at 7:08:40. tchoupi is working from physical evidence. To come up with a different analysis we would need to posit why he is wrong. How could his time markers be that far off? If tchoupi is even close on the time, but GZ was following TM with the truck during the call, then where are GZ’s lights, and whose vehicle(s) is/are making the light patterns on TTL around 7:08?

         • Actually I have made a note on the figure about T. Smith arrival saying that the time stamp is probably slightly off and could be moved up to 30sec to the left. The reason is that I don’t have to the T. Smith or emergency arrival times at the gate down to the second.

           For example I know T. Smith logged his arrival time at 7:17:11 but was he at the gate or was he at the mailboxes? That makes a difference.

           So, please consider a margin of error of 30sec. So, when you say he parked at 7:08:40, it may actually be as late as 7:09:10.

           The only advantage of keeping the time stamp as shown is simplicity: It starts at 6:45 & ends at 7:30.

           Finally, I can’t help thinking that Police extracted 45min out of 4hours of videos with a purpose. Following that line, 6:45 is about the earliest time TM could have been at the complex

         • To me, one of the 1st indications that he was moving are the 4 beeps that I hear and can see(in the wave file). They sound like beeps from a parking sensor, which is why I have him backing up at 7:10:35 then 3s. later into Drive then 7s. later into Park.The rest of the gear sounds I tried to match to the tchoupi’s vidoes.

           I also reviewed all the videos as well as the FRONT DOOR one that gave me clues as to when the Rescue 38 and Fire truck 38 arrive and worked backwards from there to try to get a real time line.On the front door the flashing police lights can be viewed.

           From listening to the medics interviews I understood that rescue and truck arrived almost one behind the other and is noted on the report at time 7:27pm-

           39.42 Rescue 38 arrives(Blue lights)FRONT DOOR
           49.11 Firetuck 38 arrives (red lights)FRONT DOOR

           Maybe I am crazy for saying this but I believe that Officer Smith arrives at 29.11 to 29.20 and for some reason(mistakenly) travels west on RVC and goes the long way around to then park on RVC not TTL. GZ even says in his re-enactment that the police officer arrived from “there” pointing to RVC. If you look at FRONT door video 29.11-29.20 there is white headlight flash on lower left cement door and on the GLASS portion at the top of the door there are RED circular flashes

           Officer Ayala arrives 2 minutes later according to reports that would be at 31.11 on video and he travels on TTL. In the police dispatch calls he continually says to Smith…I don’t see your car…Smith responds he is behind the address on RVC

           But I could be wrong just my analysis.

         • CORRECTION: sorry
           40.11 Firetuck 38 arrives (red lights)FRONT DOOR

         • For what it’s worth here a video of someone driving a honda ridgeline in the rain with wipers on. Radio is playing but I don’t really hear the engine

           Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 2nd Evidence Dump Released

         • These are reported times by Emergency Responders which is is also another reason I have Smith arriving at around the CCTV 29.11 mark

           Rescue 38- On Scene 19:27:26
           Engine 38- On Scene 19:28:00 (34 seconds later)

       • And here is a site that has sound fx for gear shifts..although I could not find specific fx for Honda Ridgeline(which would be the best) I have posted an example of a sound similar to one that we hear in GZ dispatch call. Here is a link to the fx site :

         http://www.soundsnap.com/tags/gear_shift

         7th sound sample down on page (2007 Chrysler 300 C gear shift up, slick) : similar to sound at 7:11:19 (park) in GZ call

         Well anyways let me know if you guys this is too crazy to consider I do tend to get carried away, lololol, but on the other hand I really think they sound like gear shifts and not wiper sounds. thanks guys !

         • I am impressed! I didn’t even know there were sites that collected that type of info.

           • CSFC
             you have posted something about phone calls, number 103 and another one of them making fun of mothers accent. What was the number of the call taking about the mom?
             Thanks
             L

         • @Loree –

           It’s call 101.

           http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15562040/data/1/-/26gjhcz/-/Call-101.null

114. I just watched the Sean Hannity interview. That was no interview, it was a PR event. Two of many questions that should have been asked by the “interviewer”:

     1. If you were walking along the top of the T and was punched and knocked down, how did the body of Trayvon Martin end up 50′ away?

     2. When Trayvon Martin asked “Why are you following me for?”, why didn’t you identify yourself as neighborhood crimewatch?

     That’s just for starters….oh, how about..

     3. I understand that you were(and still are) on two medications prior to the murder, Adderall and Temazepam. What are they prescribed for?

     4. After the altercation and obviously severe injuries “cough” that you sustained, why didn’t you seek the medical checkup that was suggested?

     5. Why did you lie to the court and hide your passport, and lie about your finances?

     And on and on..

     • Stuckindavie
       welcome to the fact-finding blog. Something I hear Hannity is not used to doing.

       It was a fundraiser event. Asking your suggested questions would have alienated the target audience, wouldn’t it?

       There would be negotiation beforehand about what would be asked, then questions submitted for rehearsal and THEN the tape edited to cut the iffy bits (but never mind, the prosecution can still subpoena all those). (haha and then release them in an evidence dump so we’ll get to see them eventually, too).

       Your questions are what he might be asked in cross-examination. For that he’d need to take the stand. For that his lawyers would need to feel the prosecution case is strong enough to need rebuttal.

       It’s only possible to get away with telling different versions to different people if they never get together to compare notes. A trial is a big compare-notes fest. So they’ll probably try to avoid putting him on the stand, because he keeps putting his foot in his mouth every time he opens it.

       • aussie Says:

         “welcome to the fact-finding blog.”

         Thanks, aussie, been reading for months and only making my second post!

         • Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting.

115. Inconsitencies and oddities I have found in Hannity interview :

     1-Zimmerman: “well, Sunday after we mentored the kids, we would always go grocery shopping and do our cooking for the week. So I wanted to go to Target and I headed out.”
     I would like some corroboration as to his having mentored kids that day.

     2-Zimmerman: “it didn’t look like he was a resident that went to check their mail ”
     Interesting he says mail, somehow indicating that Trayvon might be at the mailboxes as Deedee reports?

     3-Zimmerman: “He was like skipping, going away quickly. But he wasn’t running out of fear.”
     Serino asked GZ to describe Trayvon’s run and GZ replied he could not remember, now he seems to remember skipping

     4-Zimmerman: “I meant that I was going in the same direction as him, to keep an eye on him so that I could tell the police where he was going”.
     In previous statements GZ said he went to get an address not to “Keep an eye on him”

     5-Zimmerman: “I walked across the sidewalk on to my street, Retreat View Circle, where I thought I would meet a police officer that I had called”.
     In previous statements GZ said he went to get an address not meet with police.

     6-Zimmerman: “I believe they asked me for my address, and I wanted to be sure that nobody was lingering and could hear my address and then come back. And I was making sure that there wasn’t anybody that was going to surprise me.”
     Very odd statement about worrying about being ‘surprised’ he was supposed to be on RVC( a lit street)

     7-Hannity : “Why did you want police at that point to call you” Zimmerman; “I hadn’t given them a correct address. I gave them a — the clubhouse vicinity. However, I was walking through to my street, Retreat View Circle, and I was going to give them the actual street number and name.
     In re-enactmen GZ was at RVC why did he not give police an address at that point while on the phone with them.

     8-Zimmerman: ‘I felt him take — he had — after he couldn’t hit my head on the concrete anymore, he started to try to suffocate me. And I continued to take — push his hands off of my mouth and my nose, particularly because it was excruciating having a broken nose and him putting his weight on it.”
     Very odd pauses and phrasing in this statement.

     9-Hannity: “And you said to the police at one point that he put his hand over your mouth. Do you think that was to silence you from screaming”? Zimmerman: “Yes, sir. I believe he — from what the investigators told me, he knew that I was talking to the police.”
     GZ says that investigators told him that somehow Trayvon knew that GZ called police WHAT????

     10-Zimmerman: “Like I said, he sat up and he said something to the effect of “you got it” or “you got me”. I assumed he meant, OK, you got the gun, I didn’t get it. I’m not going to fight anymore. At which point I got out from under him”.
     So here he is not sure which statement Trayvon actually said yet assumes he meant getting the gun…

     It has always been intriguing to me that GZ can remember finite details about select actions that transpired yet has a hard time remebering his own actions, like about how he falls to the ground.

     • Leelee
       funny you don’t seem too surprised at finding inconsistencies 😉

       re 6: no street lighting in the subdivision except near the entrance gate. BUT fancy being worried about being surprised and then BEING surprised. I mean what was he doing there if already afraid of a surprise attack?

       re 8: the odd pauses and restarts where he nearly says something are ALWAYS SIGNIFICANT. To start a rumour look at
       “I don’t have …— my wife and I don’t have any children….”
       In the reenactment “he put his hands on his nose… MY nose…” while demonstrating hands pushing down.

       re 9: yeah, what??? further he KNEW this at the time? what the cops will say hours later (and they were just guessing?)

       re 10: He told friend and helper Osterman that same night Trayvon turned 90 degrees and fell off sideways. Didn’t tell him or Hannity the nonsense about then restraining him, tho’ told Hannity he didn’t know TM was dead until the police told him an hour later.

       • Thanks Aussie 🙂
         Just one point though, in this video of the retreat I see many street lamps
         

         • Those are not very powerful street lights. But yes, they show up on aerial maps and are visible mainly by their long shadows. The subdivision is hardly what I’d call upscale and there are no sidewalks in front of the houses, either.

       • There’s absolutely nothing about his statement that he was walking toward RVC, ‘his street’ to get an address to meet the officers that makes sense. First off GZ, you lived way on the opposite side of RVC, so stop with “my street”! Secondly, unless they were coming in from the back entrance, there’s no need to go that direction for an address when the clubhouse was a useful landmark to give.

         Had he taken his behind back to where he was parked, he could’ve easily gotten the house number from very first house there to his left, I believe Jeremy’s. Dispatch asked for an address of where he was parked, that was the general vicinity. Yet during the walk through he seems oblivious to those homes being directly in sight. What I still haven’t figured out is, why none of the investigators ask him wouldn’t it have been easier to get an address from the homes facing TTL?!

         • So you get an address for where the police could meet you but THEN you walk in the complete opposite direction away from that address, presumbably back to your car, where you don’t know the address?

           My goodness, this guy has lied so much in his life and got away with it that he is convinced he can convince people with this bs now. Here is a hint for you, if the lies you tell are not materially relevant to a person, most people won’t call you on it, Zimmerman. But this is different and BDLR is going to call you out on every single one of your lies. Bank on it!

         • Tina, this issue has been beaten to death, but to clarify….Please listen to the unredacted tape of GZ’s NEN call (it may well be evident in the redacted tape as well, not sure). After he left his truck and is running around, the dispatcher asked him where his truck was parked. He said that it’s a cut-through and he didn’t know the name of that street. There’s no reason at that time for him to lie to the dispatcher by saying that he didn’t know. Jeremy’s house faces TTL so giving him that number would not have been useful since he didn’t have the street name. Of course, we know he’s lying when he says that he ever got out of the truck in the first place to look for a street sign or that he went looking for a house number on RVC. If he went there at all, it was to glance down the street to see if TM was there since he lost sight of him. During that part of the call, you’ll see that he’s running/jogging/skipping? for a short while after the dispatcher says “we don’t need you to do that”, but he’s clearly very distracted, banging on his flashlight, etc. And some have conjectured that they can hear him cocking his gun. I almost believe that he was down at RVC when he tells the dispatcher to just have the cops call him instead and he’ll tell them where he’s at. At that time, his tone changes since he stopped his hunting for a second to end the call. What happens after that is pure speculation but he’s most likely still trying to look for TM whether he was going back towards the truck or not. Anyhow, I think the defense can argue reasonably that he didn’t know the name of the street because of what’s on the call. Everything else of course is BS.

           • The gun Zimmerman was carrying that night has an internal hammer block safety, which can only be overcome by pulling the trigger.

             It’s designed to carry “already cocked”, so Zimmerman wouldn’t need to have done a thing with it but pull it out of the holster and pull the trigger.

             Those sounds most likely have nothing to do with the gun.

             unitron

             • Thanks for the clarification, I was just re-gurgitating something others have mentioned. I don’t know anything about guns, and have just read a bit on it regarding this case. You’re right, his gun doesn’t have a safety, and “cocking” may be the wrong word for it. But would putting a clip in the gun make the same sound? Or don’t you have to pull the slide to get the first bullet in the chamber? Again, never seen a gun in my life, don’t know. Other theorists have said it was the sound right before he says “Zimmerman” in answering the dispatcher’s question about his name. The other sounds around that time really does sound like he’s just tapping the flashlight.

             • I’m no gun expert, either, found a site back in March or April, can’t remember where now, and some “gun people” were kind enough to educate me on that Kel-Tec model in particular and hammer block safeties in general.

               With that gun you put the clip in, work the slide to chamber the round at the top of the clip, remove the clip and replace that one round with another and put the clip back in.

               That way you have all the rounds in it possible–if you’re forced to start shooting, better to have too many than too few. You don’t have to use all of them if it isn’t necessary.

               And the way Zimmerman’s gun was found when it went to the forensics lab confirmed it.

               There was an unfired round chambered (the recoil from the fired shot ejected the empty shell and chambered that next round, which is what it’s designed to do), and the clip was one round short of maximum capacity.

               So it was loaded with the maximum and he fired once.

               (Unfortunately that once was enough.)

               If you’re going to carry that particular gun for self-defense, that’s the only way that makes sense, ready for instant use and as fully loaded as possible.

               unitron

             • Thanks for the explanation. I’m learning more about guns than I care to! Years ago, I lived alone in a rather seedy neighborhood, saw all sorts of things…But I would never have considered getting a gun as I know it would likely be taken and used to shoot ME! Instead I just walked to and from my car with my keys sticking out between my fingers as a ready weapon. That and I carried a dummy wallet to readily hand over to a friendly mugger.

             • You do not carry a holstered weapon unloaded. Anyone who is carrying concealed is going to have a full clip, locked and loaded.

               The Kel-Tek PF9 has a built-in safety mechanism, being a “double action only” handgun. When you pull the trigger, the movement pulls the hammer back to cock it, then releases the hammer, allowing it to strike the bullet and fire. It’s sort of like firing an uncocked revolver, half the effort is taken up in pulling the hammer back.

               When you pull the PF9 trigger, the pull is much longer and stiffer than a gun with a safety switch. This isn’t a hair-trigger, it takes five pounds of force to pull the trigger. The same mechanism prevents the gun from firing if dropped.

               There are a variety of ways to circumvent the double-action somewhat, for example, some gun nuts swap out the spring, or modify the firing pin, allowing for a trigger pull that takes much less force. I don’t think GZ is smart enough or handy enough to make these mods, but a gunshop’s gun smith certainly could.

               When you load a semiautomatic, you slap the clip in with some force to seat it well. Once the clip is seated, you pull back and release the slide. The slide mechanism shucks the top bullet out of the clip and loads it ready for firing. When you do fire, the slide has a couple of little nubs that grab the spent casing and eject it on the way back, then grabs the next bullet and puts it in position.

               You can watch how the Kel-Tek PF9 double-action trigger works and see the substantial recoil at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8TtAyF6YA

               To get a better idea of how a small double action semi works, check this video of shooting a small Beretta. You can see what the slide is doing, how the trigger works, and the recoil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEOZuuD86x8 In fact, wtch this one first, then watch the Kel-Tek PF9 video, it will be easier to understand what you are watching.

               It is interesting to note that the evidence records show that Zimmerman’s Kel-Tek had no bullet chambered and one missing from the clip. A semi-automatic pistol is not supposed to do that: it should have chambered up the next round. I am betting that the nasty recoil on the PF9 caused GZ to hit the clip release, or perhaps the slide was fouled by TM’s clothing. The clip only has to slide out a few millimeters to prevent the next bullet from being engaged by the slide.

             • OK Gunnora, you’re telling me there was no chambered bullet and there’s one missing from the clip. Onlyiamunitron says there’s a chambered bullet and one missing so the gun was at full capacity. I think I have read that what onlyiamunitron says is true. Could be wrong. Regardless, if we can entertain the possibly that GZ actually doesn’t carry his weapon everywhere he goes, or that the last time he went shooting he left the gun empty. When he was in the safety of his truck, maybe he didn’t have it on him yet. Then he haphazardly grabs it before going after TM, when he says “bleep, he’s running”. Could the loading of the gun at that point make that “click click” sound on the NEN call? If so, is there anyway an audio analysis could prove it? I’ve been known to shoot down what I think are “wild” theories here (no pun intended), so feel free to tear this one apart. Why I’m just interested in this is that I’m still trying to figure out the prosecution’s slam dunk evidence for a “depraved mind”. Loading a gun in public certainly fits that bill, even if TM was not in his line of sight at that moment and even if he does holster it afterwards, it’s “depraved” to be doing that standing/running on a sidewalk.

             • It’s just unitron (long story)

               Page 121 of the 184 page PDF of the first evidence dump.

               They used one of Zimmerman’s bullets to fire a test round for ballistics.

               That left 6 unfired rounds, the fired test round slug and jacket, and the bullet fragments recovered from Martin’s body plus the jacket, or shell, recovered from the grass.

               Total 8. So that would be 7 in the 7 capacity clip plus one already chambered before Martin was shot, which is how you would expect it to be carried.

               They weren’t specific about whether the gun had chambered the next round after being fired, as it’s designed to do automatically, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the first officers or evidence techs to handle it removed the clip and “cleared” it, meaning ejecting the unfired round in the chamber.

               unitron

             • Thanks “unitron”.

         • An address consists of two things — street name + house number. Sure he could get a number right where he is. But he’s forgotten the name of that street (Twin Trees Lane) so he goes to “my street” which is a circle so he knows that other street IS his street so he knows the name of it, all he needs now is to find a house number there, and he’s set with both components of a useless address. Useless because it’s not where he’s parked which is what the dispatcher wanted to know, and which he doesn’t bother to give to the dispatcher tho he’s still on the line.

           The whole thing was an excuse to keep “not-following” Trayvon.

         • he didn’t need a street address really considering it was the street you drive through the gate on. Go through the gate and stay on that street, just follow it, my car is on the wrong side of the road parked near house number blah blah blah (jeremy’s). Telling them his street wont help unless he was going to wait there, which he didn’t, nor did he get a number. Thats because he remembered he told them he would meet them at his car, which he didn’t. So he starts heading back. And if when he was on the phone to them he told them to meet him at his car why did he continue walking to RVC…why didn’t he return to his car the second he said that’s where he would meet them. Why did he remember after the convo ended. Every argument he has made can be ripped apart by a 5 year old. I hope he keeps talking, for once it is going to get him into trouble instead of out of trouble.

           • Driving off the main road into that entrance, wouldn’t you have to know it was Twin Trees lane?

         • nope just say its the entrance to The Retreat. They found their way in without him giving the street so there was no need for a name. Enter The Retreat and thats the road i’m on.

         • No, he got a sudden attack of ADHD and bad memory and forgot the name of a street he drives on every day.

         • I see no reason why they should tip him off that this story needs to be changed. Let him keep repeating it. Until…
           ” I direct the jurors attention to the large screen in the front of the court…
           Now Mr. Zimmerman, does that “X” properly indicate the location of your truck?”

           “Yes”

           “Now, do you see the line I’m drawing over to that house there?”

           “Yes”

           “Is that a house number there?”

           “Yeah”

           “Isn’t that closer to where you parked than this location over here?”

           “Errr… I forgot… I don’t remember… I don’t know, I didn’t know, I wasn’t thinking clearly, I was afraid, I was confused, he came out of no where, I was almost dead!”

           “No further questions your honor!”

116. So ZImmerman’s associates course in criminal justice never taught him about the Florida SYG Law that has been in effect since 2005!? Does this man think everyone is ignorant except him?

     HANNITY: A lot of this case legally — and we are going to get to Mark in a few minutes here and ask him about a lot of legal aspects, because there are so many of them in this case — has to do with stand your ground. You have heard a lot about it. And I was just curious, prior to this night, this incident, had you even heard stand your ground?

     ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

     HANNITY: You have never heard about it before?

     ZIMMERMAN: No.

     Interesting quote from the Miami Herald In March of this year:
     The authors of Florida’s controversial “stand your ground” self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin….. “He has no protection under my law,” former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.
     http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

     • OK, now somebody’s gonna go pull up GZ’s transcript and ask every professor/instructor if SYG was ever a topic of reading or discussed in class. If it was, guess what GZ’s answer will be? “You know? I have a bad memory anyway.”

       • “I don’t know, I don’t remember” will forever be pulling a GZ.

         • There’s sooo many things that could qualify as “pulling a GZ”. How about flip-flopping scenarios as “pulling a GZ”?
           1) What? I wasn’t the big scary stalker with a gun! HE was intimidating ME, putting his hand in his waist band like that, he coulda had a gun!
           2) I wasn’t beating on her, she was beating up on me.
           3) I put my hand on his mouth….he put his hands on my mouth…(re-enactment video).
           4) My wife…I was going to the grocery store… (in re-enactment video)
           5) He wasn’t screaming, I was screaming.

           Or wanting “do-overs”
           1) I have no regrets…oh yes I do….
           2) NEN call: “Bleep…he’s running…he ran.” (Thinking: Yeah that’s why you should still send a cop out cause that’s really suspicious” Interview: (thinking: Oh, you’re asking if his running could mean that he’s scared?) He wasn’t running out of fear, more like skipping (because, ya know, thugs are always happy skipping)

           Of course the above are not exact quotes (or even quotes at all), but you guys know what I mean.

       • His friends Osterman and Taafe were surely knowledgeable of that law so it had to have been mentioned by them beforehand. Why ever would he claim to not know about it, after all it doesn’t matter if he admits to being aware of SYG. He had to have known for a long time. I call him out on more BS.

       • Actually the SYG and self-defence provisions of the law are clearly explained in the CCW course and handbook, both of which he had to have in order to get the carry licence.

         Probably can’t remember that either.

       • So true, it’s not going to be easy to show what someone knows or has read or talked about over time.

         Of course, that said, I’d suspect that “gun nuts” would have spent quite a bit of their time, musing with one another, about the meaning of SYG. I’m sure it was a subject of great interest on pro gun websites and boards as well. So, I don’t think it would be too hard to put GZ in the company of such discussions. The only real question is would it be worth the effort? Since he can always say he either forgot or didn’t understand.

     • Anybody – literally anybody – that carries a concealed weapon understands SYG. It’s like driving a car (in the US) and knowing you’re supposed to be on the right side.

117. Therealgeorgezimmerman website” ABOUT” page pointing out that the GZLegal website has failed on key issues has now been deleted

     • I think the “realgeorge” page is just another portal for donations to flow thru, and might be aimed at those who like GZ but think his lawyer is “soft.” Funny how the cash flows to the same account.

       Others wondered if it signaled that GZ is about to fire MO’M. I doubt it. But if the money starts flowing to a different account I’d wonder if GZ was about to try to flee the country.

       • I’ve thought this for awhile. That, or O’Mara bails on GZ. They aren’t a fit. O’Mara doesn’t get a lot of support on BccList but he’s not erratic enough and way too sane for Zimmerman.

         Anybody else notice how horribly exhausted/beat up O’Mara looked on Hannity?

         • Yes, noticed that he looked like a truck ran over him. I think O’mara thought that he could handle him, and is quickly finding out he is a lost cause.

         • Anybody would lose sleep over having to deal with GZ and this crazy case. Actually, I think O’Mara is brilliant in that he keeps GZ at an arms length, not rigorously defending everything about his client like a mother lion. This drives his supporters crazy and they want him fired. But so far, he’s been able to remove the sleezeball factor that would normally draw a lot of additional hatred towards a defendant. In a clip of the Hannity interview I saw (don’t know if it came on last night or will be on tonight), he was asked if he thought the case was overcharged with murder 2. Any other defendant’s lawyer would outright say, of course! Prosecution’s crazy! etc, etc. He just says, well when he was given the original documents, he said he’d have to wait and see what the evidence says. Although prosecution hasn’t released everything, what he’s seen so far does not constitute a murder charge. Also in his answer about SYG, he clearly defines it’s about whether a person feels they’re in mortal danger and therefore have the right to defend themselves. He’s coming off as a respectable lawyer and that will win points with on the fence jurors. It will also make his arguments so much more memorable when he does decide to make them. For example, at the bond hearing when he says that TM was shot because of his own doing. That statement was SHOCKING in and of itself, but even moreso coming from O’Mara. I’m not saying he’s a saint (he’s a lawyer after all, just joking) but his clean image is what GZ needs, especially with the allegations of recent days.

         • haha loree he’s probably wishing a truck would run over him.

         • i don’t think O’Mara will bail on the Zimmerman defense. O’Mara is doing exactly what he said from the first he was doing: providing an integral part of what’s needed in a criminal case. I know many people have a negative opinion of lawyers, but from the writing of the U.S. Constitution, our judicial system has been set up to be adversarial, each side telling its story and providing its proofs, to be weighed by judge and jury.

           Even if O’Mara knows his client is guilty, in his role as defense lawyer, he has to put up the best effort possible to secure the best possible outcome for his client.

           You have to feel for the man, when he has Zimmerman showboating and acting a fool. The basic rule when you’re awaiting trial is to say nothin’ to nobody, keep your nose clean, and follow the instructions of your lawyer as if they were handed down by God from Mount Sinai. Zimmerman isn’t doing any of that, which makes O’Mara’s job so much more difficult.

     • Zimmerman possibly gone rogue ? O’Mara responds…What you guys think
       http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/19/2902578/zimmerman-calls-barbara-walter.html

       • I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: GZ is a CONTROL FREAK!

         • And in “fear” of everything under the sun.

       • I think Zimmerman and O’Mara still don’t trust each other.

         Anybody know if Zimmerman’s attorney that handled his job-related lawsuit actually got paid? We know Sonner and crew didn’t. Will O’Mara get paid?

         • The attorney for the job-related lawsuit was paid out of the settlement. However, there was a dispute as to who had to pay the 10K fine for GZ missing a deposition. GZ said the lawyer should pay. The lawyer says he isn’t paying.

           As I said before…a bad track record with lawyers.

           • He’s very “frugal” according to his friend MO…. Actually, In one of the jailhouse calls (sorry, was randomly listening and didn’t note the number), GZ and SZ were praising O’Mara and saying how awesome and professional he was. Then GZ says, you know after this, he (O’Mara) is going to be able to charge whatever he wants, like a $250,000 retainer, for any celebrity. He was very giddy saying this. That along with the way he treated Barbara Walters makes me think he believes he’s a celebrity now and he’s doing O’Mara and the media a favor by bestowing his presence upon them.

           • lawyer in GZ employment case was NOT PAID-princess6 is correct- GZ paid $18000 without reduction for failure to appear for deposition, but aattorney NOT paid (another attorney that parted ways with GZ!) her is link: see p.2:
             http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/27/2871449/zimmerman-failed-to-appear-in.html

         • @princess6 –

           Agree. I had read somewhere that Zimmerman didn’t show up for the trial and so the arbitrator (or judge) fined Zimmerman for the attorney’s cost.hIn whatever it was that I had read, it mentioned Zimmerman accidentally getting paid the full amount of his award despite the arbitrator’s/judge’s ruling that the attorney’s fees be deducted from same.

           If I re-find the link, I’ll post. In any event, yes. Zimmerman has a very bad track record when it comes to paying lawyers. The lawyer involved said it wasn’t worth fighting for in the article, IIRC.

         • @ so interesting –

           Yes. Zimmerman is looking for his 15 minutes of celebrity heroism. Maybe that’s why he’s pushing so hard and sending out his talking points. He’s FINALLY MADE IT!

           Too bad for him nobody’s buying his B-movie. Is there a C-movie category? I find B-movies to be too worthy of association to Zimmerman’s story and don’t want to discredit or put down up and coming actors/actresses.

           • There certainly should be a ‘C’ movie category, if only because some ‘B’ movies are actually first rate! B was used to denote that the movie merely did not have any stars in it. But we’ve all seen movies with stars that are actually B in quality. Just as we’ve seen B movies without stars that are top flight.
             C, would point to those pictures that just don’t make it at all, not even as artsy.

             In any event, I just happen to be a B movie lover. When you find a good B movie there’s nothing like it! It’s not easy to find them, you have to wade through a lot of junk, but when you do find one it’s more than worth it.

118. Hey NMLE thanks for having a screen cap of therealgeorgezimmerman “ABOUT” page which has now been deleted…is there anyway you can post it so that we can read the text ? Thanks !

     • Sure — give me a day or so to get on a PC. I didn’t want to give his site anymore exposure than small/barely readable screenshots.

       • my thank you kisses didn’t post 😦

       • Hi NLME – Any luck on capturing the “about” page for us to read? I am really curious to read it. Thanks for all you do.

         • It’s gone. I see they fixed the broken link for donations.

     • Who’s that guy with the dog?

     • I went to therealgeorgezimmerman.com, clicked on the ‘Help GZ’ button, and got a 404 Not Found Error. (Really! GZ is doing his own parody of his fundraising unintentionally.)

     • I’m finally in front of my PC — here’s the screenshot of Zimmerman’s “About” page (in the event it hasn’t been posted somewhere else on the internet by now).

       

       • Thank you! I can read that one.

         I haven’t see the page posted elsewhere. Even google cache produced nothing for me. Some sites produced the transcript of the words, but there’s nothing like the real thing since transcripts are often faulty.

       • Thank you!

119. Barbara Walters revealed on Thursday that she had rejected demands made by Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman in exchange for an interview.

     The New York Post reported on Thursday that Walters had traveled down to Florida with the intention of interviewing Zimmerman, but walked away after he requested that ABC get him a hotel room for a month.

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/19/barbara-walters-george-zimmerman-interivew-demands_n_1685668.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

     • Meaning Hannity said yes to those demands.

       • exactly!

120. did O’Rielly just say “how does it hurt us?” when he was interviewing megyn kelly about the zimmerman interview..megyn was great by the way even telling Bill to let her finish. Not sure if that is what he said because i can’t go back and check, but sounded like it to me.

121. how have gz’s funds run dry already? This is bullshit.

122. Parks on Hannity.

     Hannity is defending GZ, wanker.

     Parks says the problem is george doesn’t take any responsibility for anything he did.

     Showing clip of george, Talking about the punch in the nose, head bashing on ground.

     Parks says he shouldn’t have got out of vehicle.

     Talking of his injuries, how do you get murder2?

     Parks says he profiled Martin, what was his mind set.

     How do you get a guilty verdict?

     Parks says, Tray doing nothing wrong, was provoked, he didn’t know this guy. Haha hannity says but trayvon was on top of him annd parks says well he should have been on top of him, hannity says he was beating him, and parks says well he should have been beating him. trayvon was fighting a man with a 9mm, he was fighting for his life.

     i wish he called out more inconsistancies such as it did not happen the way gz said, he was not suprised, punched, and fell to the ground. What about the argument, the location of poor trayvon’s body, but i’m glad someone finally pointed out that trayvon was fighting for HIS life by a man who followed him with a gun.

     • I kind of loved when Parks said he SHOULD have been holding him down fighting. If I was in TM’s position, dude would be choking on his teeth cuz I’d have knocked em the fuck out. Really, when you follow someone all over the place…looking at the person all crazy…while carrying a gun, do ya really think they think you just want to come introduce yourself and shake hands?! HELL NO. GZ escalated it when he ran after him and failed to answer who he was and why he was following.

       I agree that Parks should have called GZ out more. Every single part of GZ’s story can be torn apart to show none of it adds up. He can be consistent all he wants (though he’s really not outside of he confronted and attacked me), but that doesn’t make it true. It’s a fairytale of lies! Lies that can easily be proven. GZ is consistent…a consistent liar…that’s fact.

       • did you catch the part of the GZ interview where he was asked if he can understand why trayvon might feel threatened by him or scared of him or something like that after being followed, and he says no. Unbelievable.

         • But, but, but, JO…TM WAS BLACK! Don’t you know young black men don’t get scared?! LOL. I fear for humanity if anyone really buys the BS GZ’s trying to sell. There’s been a lot of end of the world predictions, but kind of hoping the Mayan’s got it right if there’s people stupid enough to believe a word GZ says.

123. Hannity has just had a couple of the dumbest people on the planet talking about how good this interview was for GZ. They are trying really hard but anyone with an IQ over 10 would not buy it. Fox News should be taken off air…it’s fools like them that give the US a bad image.

124. HA,
     GZ supporters are not giving up the money!!!
     Since his Hannity interview only 1500 came in.

     http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Local-6-exclusive-George-Zimmerman-criticizes-own-defense-team/-/1637132/15611904/-/gxn5tw/-/index.html

     • awesome!! i mean what did they think, that after the initial payments that his “fans” would just continue to keep handing over their money…nup. I bet they will start accepting money from hate groups now.

       • I think the hate groups hate George, for fu**ing it for them. I don’t think they will support him anymore then his now dying fan base. LOL

       • I think GZ should drop O’Mara and represent himself. 😀

         • hahahah
           That would be awesome, I think he thinks he can, we said it first right here!

         • haha that would be funny if it wasn’t a total reality…lol

           he probably read “criminal defense for dummies” and thinks he can go it alone.

           He is calling all the shots anyway apparently, O’Mara is just like a very expensive handbag at the moment.

           • i’m counting the days on that old handbag….
             lol

         • I think O’Mara is running this case on paper only. We know who is controlling what is happening on the defense side. I’m not so sure O’Mara wanted the confessed murderer out but then again, I’m sure he didn’t want him on the phone either with all his calls taped. This guy seems like he has a way of just bringing down everyone around him. O’Mara chose to deal with this toxic person, so I’m looking forward to the implosion. He was warned though. Sonner and Uhrig did tell the country that this guy was a mess.

       • I wonder what is going through the heads of those who did donate back in April.

125. George said that of all the people the FBI interviewed the only one who said he was racist was the same person who said he was a devient. Are there more witnesses to come though? What of the guy who was mercilessly bullied? Did the FBI just speak to random people who had heard of George but not spoken to him, or people like the HOA who had limited contact. Did they speak to his employers and HR. Hopefully the prosecution has spoken to a better quaility of witness han the FBI apparently did.

     • The FBI could find it’s ass with both hands.

     • His logic – my friends and family said I wasn’t racist, therefore I didn’t abuse my cousin. The most telling thing – HE DID NOT DENY IT.

126. Poor O’Mara is on damage control. Although I’ve previously stated here that I didn’t think GZ was too bright, it’s incredulous that even he could make such a mess of this media thing. On the other hand, I wonder if his latest shenanigans about dissing Barbara was just meant to gain sympathy about being broke for money and that he never intended to sit down with her (he showed up in a T shirt to meet with her!). Well, I take it back, that’s not being clever, it’s so disrespectful. If he was just playing with her, that’s just really wrong. The woman has interviewed world leaders, she’s 82 years old and has better things to do.

     Why does he really need to do interviews anyway? He could upload all the videos he wants that have been reviewed by a PR expert/his lawyers to get his message out. That way, he could get all the do-overs he wants and not stick his foot in his mouth.

127. aww gee. Thinking of those lost in Colorado. Another man who should not have been able to get his hands on a gun. So so sad.

     • I woke up to that this morning. What a horrible tragedy.

128. OT, but… What the FUCK is wrong with people?!?!

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/aurora-shooting-movie-theater-batman_n_1688547.html

     • Terrible! 14 dead including little children. 50 wounded. Senseless.

       • Colorado? Where were the SYG’ers??? Looks like this law didn’t work very well, or as intended. Wasn’t it supposed to put more opposition to this sort of thing in the public arena? Instead, all we seem to be getting is tragedy on top of travesty for it. 50 injured! 14 dead! At least the gunman was captured.

       • Guns Kill

         • Yep. Just try doing that much damage with a knife or a baseball bat.

           Sad there’s crazy people. Sadder they have the means to do so much damage and that is somehow a constitutionally protected right.

     • ON Topic, qetno. The Martin/Zimmerman case is just a symptom.

129. Breaking: Reason GZ did the interview with SH – He was in fear.

130. The following article should be titled “No, Believe Me, We’re Not In Denial! Do You Have Some Aspirin?” …

     http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/07/20/why-is-george-zimmerman-going-rogue/#more-44523

     It’s so sad… But, I can’t help laughing ;oP

     • Oh Lawd. Meek, mild and naive…can i get a POOOOOOR GEOOOORGE!!!

       next they’ll be blaming spongebob squarepants.

       • LOL they’ve up a “mugshot” of MOM.

         Sometimes that site makes me sick. Sometimes it makes me laugh, no way they can be really real, can they?

         • hahaha what is wrong with these people..i still shake my head at how these supposedly adult, sane people can still claim that George is the only one being honest and everyone else is lying…..it’s like NLME said, there is no point arguing with them because they are just not rational lol.

           • I got your post, your welcome Jo

     • Hahaha… The “Security Muscleman and professional bar bouncer” is now “meek and mild mannered”. What a joke. An accountant maybe, but not a bar brawler for hire, eh?

     • You are not alone, tchoupi – I CTHU at those clowns…

     • Maybe they’re “purple drunks”. 🙂

131. Getting back to the case:

     I think one big clue to suggest that there was a tipster is the inconsistent way GZ describes TM moving from Frank Taaffe’s area to the clubhouse and beyond- he’s invented this part using what he heard from a tipster and he has a major hole in his logic illustrated somewhat on the map.

     IMO he first saw Trayvon at the mailboxes and his first Parking spot is at the corner of TTL which be marked on a map as his second spot but quickly crossed it out in the second intrrview recording w singleton.

     But in his first telling before singleton went and fetched a map George wants to leave out the mailbox staredown in favor for getting quickly to “TM circled me” which sounds a heck of a lot better than ” TM passed me and I did u turn and flowed him and then he ran and then I got out and ran after him” which is what fits the timing and description on the audio. So George SKIPS the idea that TM caught up and passed him at the clubhouse altogether – when in doubt, leave it out seems to be a pattern for seeing his lies. Listen to it or read the transcript – he goes from a vague “he was looking at the houses etc” to the next thing I know he’s appeared out of the darkness- darkness he later claims he can see into – and circles my car. IMO this omission in the very first telling is due to his omission of here he actually first pulled over and place his call- at th spot he marked on the map at the corner of TTL by the mail boxes.

     On first telling singleton misses this flub, but not entirely. She pauses the intrrviiew and goes to fetch a map. Her mistake is that she leads George too much however and points out he left out how Trayvon goes from buoys him on RVC to ahead of him emerging from the T area darkness, a darkness he can see into later, supposedly when he says Trayvon cut south during the video walk thru “reenactment”

     But when singleton leads George to explain how TM gets ahead he conflates details from the earlier telling onspicuoisly, and we hear not the first lies, but the first trainwreck of compounded lies he can’t quite keep straight.

     I am posting from a mobile device so I can’t copy the transcript but I’d urge you to read both and see what I mean. IMO if you go thru the statements in chronological order it’s helpful to see the buildup of lies into th trainwreck it eventually becomes.

     • Continued:

       Darn auto-correct. Buoy above was supposed to read” behind. ”

       The detail George conflates and repeats is the supposed instruction to move his car to where he can see the teen again. In the first telling George is trying to invent a reason for why he moved after “pulling over” in an indeterminate spot. He’d like the whole story to get past the prelude quickly since he knows it’s troublesome. In his haste he already trying to cover the U-turn bit when shown the map he suddenly needs that phony instruction twice. Listen for it in the walk thru video but know that he’s inventing it on the spot with singleton but when shown the map he’s already caught needing the lie about being directed to move earlier.

     • Credible scenario. I watched the Poolhouse video again looking for any car movement after GZ’s call to NEN begins. I can’t make out anything, but he could have left his lights off.

       But that conflicts with the “lights on” beeping we hear when GZ bolts out of the truck.

       • I don’t hear the vehicle move whatsoever though it easily could have however…

         “But that conflicts with the “lights on” beeping we hear when GZ bolts out of the truck.”

         • George himself tells a version where he connects with dispatch and moves his car (at their direction from the clubhouse to the cut thru) so in some version of his brain he “admits” talking and driving at same time. He’s lying about the where and why but not the what – he drove while talking to Sean the dispatcher, IMO.

           And I DON’T rely on this sound to make my theory provable, but when he says “these axxholes always get away” is the same time he would move, and many claim to head a gearshift sound there. I think i hear it too, but YMMV, and it doesn’t matter anyway. I think the timing alone proves he had to move at that moment or close to it, so the sounds are just corroboration, not proof. Keep in mind he’s in a modern car that seals like tupperware, has a small engine that was likely running the whole time and moving for a short distance at idle speed.

           And the lights on beeping is also the keys are still in ignition and door open sound, I think. I’d love to hear from a Honda Ridgeline owner on this part. He does claim to have used his headlights to see partially into the cut thru area, and this may be why he didn’t pull farther forward onto the curve before exiting his car.

           I think personally that the clubhouse videos are intriguing but I’ve not relied on them for ANYTHING in developing this theory. Not because I don’t think tchoupi isn’t very smart and close to the truth, but because I think a jury might have a hard time seeing what is going on there.

           If I were part of the investigative team I’d test the clubhouse cameras with a nighttime/wet streets re-enactment. If one had a side-by-side companion video to show with the original, a jury might go for it. No one has reported such a re-enactment having happened however. Seems like a job for the FDLE.

           ( I think the prosecution is going to present a much simpler case – as in GZ was asked “are you following him” and answered “yeah” – end of argument. GZ pursued Trayvon, okay jury, let’s get the rope and hand the lying bastard, case closed. And in some regards they are smart to keep it that simple.)

           • Milo confirmed with his coworker that the noise heard in Zimmerman’s call is due to a Ridgeline’s lights being on, keys out of the ignition, and door open. This is what the YouTube video showed but I couldn’t see if the lights were on or read the dial (until milo pointed out that the knob was set to the lights on position).

             So, when Zimmerman got out of his car, his lights were left on. Leading up to him exiting, I speculate (and the timing suggests) Zimmerman parked pointing west towards the clubhouse with his lights on. I also speculate all of Trayvon’s documented movements after the 1:30ish mark were observed via Zimmerman’s mirrors (and this can be heard in his voice/tone).

             The 1:30ish mark of his call is important. That’s when Trayvon and Zimmerman were closest to each other before the actual confrontation.

       • Cars beep when you open the doors with the key still in the ignition, yes?

         • Different chime noise.

           And GZ’s keys were found at the T.

           • Whoops. Didn’t see this until I responded to the other comments. Thanks for confirming.

           • We don’t know how many sets of keys for that truck he actually has.

             (obviously Shellie has her own set. Or her own tow truck)

             Does the Ridgeline need one key for the ignition and a different one for the doors, or does one key do both?

             They only indicated a single key on the keychain. Perhaps it’s a door key with the ignition key still in the car. Or perhaps that wasn’t a key in ignition chime, perhaps that was a headlights still on chime, or a seatbelt not buckled chime.

             unitron

         • He opened the door with the keys in the ignition, i think and removed them before shutting the door. But I also think his headlights were on facing into the cut thru. Thats’s why he didn;t park on the curve – because even tho he’d be closer his lights would be on 1211 TTL or the ford pickup instead of down the cut thru.

         • Zimmerman’s vehicle (Ridgeline) only makes the chime heard in his call when the lights are left on and the door is open. This was “uncovered” by a YouTube video and confirmed by milo/coworker.

       • Be probably didn’t turn on his headlights if at all until be saw Trayvon run. He’s been known to patrol with no headlights before. It seems IMO he saw TM first as he passed the mail shed and then kept going in order to return and observe from the corner. The easiest way to turn around after that would be to back up first I think, possibly into a driveway, and then turn right to shadow TM down TTL. Imagine if someone stalked you in slo mo with no headlights.

         But again the telling part of all this is that it explains the odd verb tenses and vague descriptions of TMs move from shortcut into the complex to clubhouse. Originally the “between the buildings”‘ was conflated by George to mean he saw Trayvon on the dog walk path. Keep in mind George never really says he saw TM on the shortcut by 1300 /1400 RVC. But he threw in a charge of being behind/ between the buildings a few times. It is complex but his lies all have a genesis in something plausible taken out of context . GZ likes to tell a out the black youth by FTs house and conflate it with Trayvon, too.

     • Strangely though, in the reenactment he is still going with the same story and still has the same difficulty. This time he tries to cover the time for TM to catch up with him by claiming he parked at the clubhouse parking area. And tries to make it “while trying to get through” to make this happen before the (possibly recorded) call.

       This buys him plenty of time. It gives TM time to get ahead of him, so he can come back and “circle” the car roughly when he tells the dispatcher “he’s coming over”. But he’s already told Singleton this happens earlier, so he has to make TM approach him also while he’s in the parking spot.

       A lot of this is designed to make it look like he was never at any stage doing any following (except perhaps for a little accidental going-the-same- way-at-same-time). In the reenactment his reason for pulling over is to just make the call so he can get on with his shopping trip (long story about last time to show it takes so long for the cops to arrive he can’t waste that much time, he’s in a hurry). So it’s very dissonant that suddenly he has to start following him into TTL just because he walked past behind him.

       He can say he saw him at Taaffe’s even if he didn’t, as he’d been told that’s where was entering from. Say he arrives there in time to see a shadow disappear into the distance. Crosses the intersection, does a u-turn, crosses again ooops hang on, movement at the mailboxes? u-turn again, turn right in TTL, slow down (all as per tchoupi’s lights analysis). CALL COPS. He can’t say this happened, because then he’s hunting.

       I agree the first description is hearsay and/or invented. It’s generic enough. I never believed it to be contemporaneous with the call. All he sees with his own eyes is the “button”. Unsure about pants. Sitting in a car, looking across through the passenger window, you’d only see the other person waist up.

       This position is fairly close to his first marking on the SIngleton map. Only it doesn’t fit with his having been ahead of TM along RVC.

       He trapped himself between a rock and a hard place. He needs to spot him near Taaffe’s on his innocent way to Target, pure coincidence, to hide that he’s been tipped off. But he needs to NOT follow him along RVC so he is never at any stage chasing him. So it becomes in insurmountable problem of how to get TM to get ahead of him again. TM MUST do something suspicious enough to cause him to “keep visual” on him, BEFORE he has to turn left to go out the gate to Target. So stopping there to make the call, having to wait to get through, being circled here, is enough for that.

       BUT another snag. If he is above the mailboxes, and TM comes over to check him out, how do they end up at the doggie path? so he has to get ahead of the mailboxes. The first position which he crosses out is fine for this.

       BUT that is too far from the T. He needs to get closer to the T for seeing “towards the back entrance” and also as excuse to walk through to RVC to get an address.

       This is why he has to keep crossing out and moving down. As soon as one position explains part of the story he moves the vehicle down to explain the next bit.

       He must make TM appear and circle him again near the T otherwise he has no reason to get out of the car to “maintain visual” because by this time he’s lost him. Ahh but then why did he drive that way at all if he’s going shopping? oh because he looked suspicious back there when…… oh, he was behind me there. oh how did he get in front. oh. oh that’s rght, ‘cos I was parked HERE that’s it, that’s right.

       Same as the “knocked down” at the T. Sudden look of shock, as he realises how far he is from where the shooting happened. Knocked down turns into stagger-and-shove for 40 feet.

       Same as “bashed into concrete” has to turn into “smothering” as he realises the body ended up 10 ft off the path on grass.

       This same dual-universe, worm-hole teleporting continues in the whole reenactment. He is here because of something that hasn’t happened yet, minutes go by in seconds, seconds expand so 5 things can happen at once in places 50 ft apart. Grass and concrete swirl around under him. Witnesses show up after the event and see what happened earlier and vice versa. He looks everyone in the eye through 15 ft of darkness.

       (Gosh writing TV scripts is darned hard work).

       • That’s what I’m talking about!!! Thanks, aussie for following my sometimes difficult descriptions to arrive at the same conclusions. It’s the PATTERN of his lies that is the most consistent thing about his story, more consistent than any alignment with the truth. “When in doubt, leave it out.”

         IMO GZ wants most of all to avoid the car-to-pedestrian chase since that’s why TM ran. George NEVER volunteers that TM ran at all, and only speaks of it when prompted. Singleton kinda blows it when she asks him about the running because SHE mentions it first, having heard it on the recorded call, but she should have let GZ keep telling it the way he wanted to. Again, it’s important to revisit all the interviews IN ORDER to see the evolution and progression of GZ’s lies as they begin to form a pattern.

         At the very first interview, part one and two I don’t think George is thinking straight enough at first to realize his NE call was recorded. He suspects it might have been, and he tries to tell a story that agrees with what he remembers saying, but he never gets to hear the recording until it was played for him AFTER all the questioning and written statements and “voice stress analysis” (which is NOTHING but a ruse to get him to tell the whole story uninterrupted to a supposedly neutral party, and he introduces more inconsistencies there as well, another worthy topic I won’t go into here) and after the video walk thru.

         Finally, at the end of the next day what happens when he hears “is he near the clubhouse?/yeah, now he’s coming towards me” played back to him is that George is practically insistent that he is “by the clubhouse” when this happened. (he was, at the first corner facing the mailboxes IMO)

         He’s arrived at a combination of believing his own bullshit and hoping it fits with what he knows really happened – and he thinks there will be a SECOND “here comes the suspect” episode on the tape since he’s now convinced himself of his bullshit. You can hear it slowly but surely dawn on him that he’s screwed the pooch as the investigators confront him for the first time, still acting as good cop/good cop, but good cops who want the help him get his story straight. This third/final recording with Serino and SIngleton double teaming him is from a recorder in a pocket, and Serino has taken him out into a corridor or a snack room or desk or bullpen or somewhere seemingly more neutral and buddy-buddy, he keeps pointing out that they are no longer “in there” aka a room with two- way glass, and they are just taking him aside for one last chance for him to help THEM face the tough questions, etc. It’s a decent ruse, but George isn’t buying it and tries instead to “stick to his story” even though he’s already strayed from it and contradicted himself. And the tough questions are just starting when he did so.

         • Yep all through the Singleton interview I kept saying shut up woman! shut up and let him talk, stop putting words in his mouth.

           I used to work in a job where I ended up having to be a witness far too often. But as a witness you have more latitude. There were times when I did have to say, to keen young cops, listen, who’s telling the story here, you or me? FIRST I’ll tell you what happened THEN you can ask for clarification if you need. (Of course facing a possible homicide charge I may be less helpful).

           Even if he’d played for more time, he’d not have been able to think up a better story. There’s an inherent conflict between what happened and his need to distance himself from any suggestion of following/hunting.

           If he had not made that call, he could start the whole story at the T or even halfway down the doggie path, and be attacked by someone he’d “not seen before”. But when he made the call he did not know how it would end up. He truly deluded himself this was a criminal, a Goon gangster, who he could somehow detain (without using the gun) and be a hero.

           The first time I heard the tape, while looking at maps showing him in TTL facing the mailboxes, I knew that was wrong. No way he went up TTL to the gate, caught a glimpse and made the call. He HAD to have followed from outside or from Taaffe’s place (we didn’t know of Taaffe back then).

           The second-hand statements (father, brother, Taaffe) were bad enough. The reenactment was painful to watch. By then he’d decided to deny all and any following. So he never ever got anywhere near explaining how TM got to the T on foot, sooner than he got there by car, when at the clubhouse point TM was behind him.

           Really he’d have been way better off saying he’d totally lost him, drove down TTL and up the back of RVC to see if he could spot him, then decided to check the centre path on foot and THEN got jumped. That way he could even claim he’d obeyed the dispatcher and got back in the car. That way TM would never be aware of being followed and so not have a legit excuse, either. So then IF he did turn out to be a stranger, ideally a criminal stranger, case closed.

     • I found a 2007 Honda Ridgeline manual. In there they state that a reminder chime will sound when the door opens while the headlight control dial is not off (either parking lights on or in headlights on).

       Milo, have you tested the two lights positions with your colleague? If yes, is it the same chime sound?

       • I posted something from a Ridgelinwownersclub about a specific sequence that has to be done in order for the lights to go off read comments by zroger73
         i think its the third one down

         http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39755

       • In NMLE’s Ridgeline video, the lights are left in the PARKING LIGHTS indent. So yes, same chime sound.

132. Someone mentioned earlier about checking with professors, etc about what GZ studied at Seminole as far as SYG goes, I posted a link to his criminal justice cuuriculum last week. He had several case studies as well as a lot of information in which would make him think he could kill and get away with it. Please find my link or go to the school website. Seminole college, criminal justice cuuriculum. Thanks T P.s. Go through the cuuriculum descriptions and you will find out how this is dangerous in the wrong students hands.

133. For anyone wanting the info from GZ’s FOX interview with Hannity but can’t stomach listening to that crap, here’s the transcript: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/07/18/exclusive-george-zimmerman-breaks-silence-hannity/print

134. I do have a burning question about a topic that seems to have fallen off the radar. What will come of the following turn of events:

     1. Mr. O’Mara fought tooth and nail to prevent having the additional jailhouse phone calls from being released.

     2. One of the calls reveals that Mr. O’Mara very well knew of some of the Pay Pal funds available to Mr. Zimmerman, at least $37,000 of it.

     3. In the original six calls released, Mrs. Zimmerman tells Mr. Zimmerman that Mr. O’Mara had met with the brother-in-law (the one who was in charge of the Pay Pal account).

     Who will need to file what on whom concerning this possible ethics violation… possibly more than just an ethics violation?

     • George seems to have spent $36K very fast. Was this on the advice of his lawyer O’Mara so that he could claim he was indigent at the hearing?

       If so how could we ever know that happened absent a confession or another recorded call?

       If it’s criminal the state attorney’s investigators never seemed to be able to prove it. If it’s an ethics violation, there’s no corroboration that the advice ever took place.

       To me the best chance of finding out about this would be if “Ken” or Shellie or the sister were to turn state’s evidence and testify for the prosecution. Right now Shellie is the one in the hot seat, but “Ken” may know more than she does, or at least be the one who was given the alleged unethical advice firsthand.

       It could have been as subtle hint from O’Mara that set off the whole money-hiding scheme in the first place. Ken could have mentioned to O’Mara that money was starting to come in, and O’Mara could have said, “it would be best if George could tell the court he is indigent” and then George took that ball and ran with it, assuming that the money needed to be spent and/or hidden “on the advice of his lawyer” just as he thinks the police told him to get out of his car and run after Trayvon – as in, “it’s a convenient excuse so let’s pretend that is what happened.”

       But the lynchpin of that whole episode for me is always going to be the moving of his valid passport from a joint safe deposit box into one that Shellie alone had her name on. That move had zip to do with money, and everything to do with the notion that George feared his accounts and SAFE DEPOSIT BOX were going to be seized for some unknown reason – hint hint when he didn’t show up for court at some future date.

       There are a lot of unknowns in the money scheme, but the passport was the most dirty part IMO. Like I said tho, someone’s gotta be flipped for the prosecution before we’ll likely get to the bottom of that.

       • Great response! Thanks.

       • i agree about the passport, they had the second passport hidden for a reason, and shellie asked him if she should get it out right before he was expected to get bond…that says to me they intended to use it when he made bond. She also said that someone (??can’t remember who) told her they should keep a lot of money on them or somthing to that effect, why? If it weren’t for the GPS they would be gone.

         • Didn’t she also say have the passport AND a bag ready for him? BTW, I believe it was “Ken” who told them to hoard cash. Also, I believe in those jail calls, it is disclosed that her father spent time in jail? What a great bunch of people!

     • Mark O’Mara is a well respected attorney. The first things the Florida commentators said about him when he took the case was “he’s very ethical.” I can’t imagine this guy putting his career in jeopardy for a scuzball like GZ, anymore than I can imagine Benjamin Crump putting his career in jeopardy by suborning perjury from DeeDee.

       One of the major ethical lapses of Sonnor and Uhrig was the way they turned on GZ when he dumped them. O’Mara is duty bound to represent GZ and his BS as best he can, and to not turn on his client, no matter what. I would guess he’s now into way more than he bargaining for, but that’s also an opportunity to prove his mettle as a defense attorney — to do a good job with a weak case, including bending rules as long as you don’t break them.

       I know of know evidence that he’s a right-wing ideologue, an NRA flunky, or has any other motive to get into serious monkey business on GZ’s behalf. More likely GZ is screwing him over, perhaps reporting that MOM knows things he doesn’t actually know, and MOM is just keeping his power dry.

135. Well they can always say the brother in law lied to him???? but of course this is why he wasn’t available for the phone depositions.

     The 37 can be be explained away as having already been spent by then, so doesn’t harm the indigency claim.

     MOM can be in deep doggy-do over this, but I have no idea who’d have to file it.

     Hard to see who’d want to take on GZ for free after all this though, if MOM gets put out of the picture. And looks like it will be for free, as the donations are drying up. The donors though seem to be blaming MOM for everything, so perhaps if he got dropped they might start donating again.

     • I’d like to see if SZ begins to try to throw O’Mara under the bus at her hearing next week. That will be interesting. It is my understanding that Judge Lester has 30 days from the filing of his removal to respond; perhaps he is waiting to see what happens at her trial too. Who knows. So many twists and turns in this case.

136. @ willisnewton: I don’t think that scratch-out spot on the West corner of TTL can be where GZ parked. It’s too close to the mailboxes. GZ says TM is coming toward him at 7:10:33. TM is still in front of him at 7:10:58 when GZ says TM has something in his hands. The point he seems to draw abreast of the truck (“GZ shits his pants” as NLME puts it) is 7:11:02. That’s 29 seconds, or 43 yards at a typical walking pace. It’s only 25-30 yards from the mailboxes to that big scratch-out spot. And TM told DeeDee he was going to be walking fast. Thus, the timing puts the initial parked location of the truck pretty much where tchoupi’s analysis puts it, and where Frank Taaffe said it was, just South of the gap between the two buildings fronting on RVC and with their backs to TTL.

     • Facing which way, though? Did George drive ahead to look I. His rear view mirror? And if he faced the mail boxes why did be say he used his headlights to see into the cut thru?

       Most importantly however is the “long tail” or the 30 seconds or so after “they always get away” where if TM walks the same time, he’s long gone before GZ sees him “sh*t he’s running” (or skippIng lol) away.

       • “And if he faced the mail boxes why did be say he used his headlights to see into the cut thru?”

         I believe this to be a lie. Imagine that. We should know when the dashboard cam videos appear.

         • I think he did a u-turn and followed TM down TTL from the first curve to the “FT according to george parking spot” only facing the T. If by dash cam videos you mean from the patrol cars I sure hope so. But that’s only going to show the final position.

           George isn’t lost. He may or may not have been able to recall the name of TTL – he seems genuinely unable to call it to mind in the NE call recording – but he knows damn well why he marked the spot he marked on the map, and he knows why he moved it, too. Immediately after amending the map he invents the doubling back/hand in waistband/ circling the car tale for the first time, and it causes him complications – now he has to use the “I was directed by dispatch to move” story TWICE when he really only meant to use it once, for getting out of the car.

           • The dash cam videos *should* show the direction the car was facing. If west, we know Zimmerman is lying…again. If east, then there are some unaccounted for movements in my maps.

             I think he said the car was facing east — on the path — solely to explain why he was using a flashlight. I.e. my lights automatically turned off. The problem is, Milo confirmed a Ridgeline’s lights turn off way before Zimmerman said they did.

         • @NLME –

           “I think he said the car was facing east — on the path — solely to explain why he was using a flashlight. I.e. my lights automatically turned off. The problem is, Milo confirmed a Ridgeline’s lights turn off way before Zimmerman said they did.”

           That’s exactly where I’m leaning, too. To prove it, evidence is needed.

137. The most interesting thing I’ve read in the comments about the Hannity interview is GZs specific reference tying TM to the mailboxes, which he had not mentioned in the re-enactment. He seems to undermine his own defense every time he opens his mouth.

     I also think the observation that many of the actions he attributes to TM and himself may be reversed to be a potentially productive hypothesis.

     Great job, BCC.listers!

     But I really don’t think we need to spend any more time parsing the plausibility of his “I went to find an address story.” He DIDN’T remember the name of TTL at the time, but he was in the process of giving a perfectly adequate directions to his location when she saw TM change pace, at which point he broke off giving those directions and began running after the young man.

     It is thus OBVIOUS from the audio that his intent in leaving his truck was not to establish his location, but to track TM. Operator Sean not only does NOT ask for an address before GZ leaves the truck, he doesn’t even ask for GZ to describe his location. GZ is volunteering that info. It’s only at the end of the call, in trying to establish a rendevous point for GZ and the arriving officers that Sean asks, “What address are you parked in front of?”

     GZ might plausibly not be able to remember what he was asked when, but he could not have acted on a request that was not made until well over a minute AFTER he left his truck.

     • And, he left the location of this address he has just retrieved. If the intent is to get an address where police can meet you, why leave that location you have provided for that purpose?

       • Ahh… but that didn’t matter, ‘cos he never actually gave them that address, remember? he hung up just as he found it. So he wasn’t confusing the cops with that at all. Only confused you and me.

     • The whole story is full of things that happen because of something else that hasn’t happened yet. A weird time-warp. To Hannity:

       HANNITY: And you said to the police at one point that he put his hand over your mouth. Do you think that was to silence you from screaming?

       ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. I believe he — from what the investigators told me, he knew that I was talking to the police. And I was yelling so that — I believed that the police officer was there and they just couldn’t (find) me. So, I was yelling in the hopes that they were in the vicinity and they would come when they heard me yelling.

       So he’s actually saying, I was hoping the cops I’d called would find me, and I knew he was smothering me to prevent this because he knew I had called the cops even though I’d only be told that tomorrow (even tho the investigators eer knew what TM knew).

       In other statements he was just hoping the neighbours would help. Hmmm…

138. The confessed murderer’s omissions are just as important as his inconsistencies. He has a hard time filling in the gaps because he is lying. So one omission for me – after allegedly getting clocked so hard in the face that you fall to the ground immediately – what do you do? If you are punched in the nose, the NORMAL instinct would be to grab your nose. He never mentions doing that at all. Also, if you are struck to the ground and someone is about to pounce, the NORMAL instinctual thing to do is to get into a defensive posture. He never mentions covering his head.

     I’ll have to think of other omissions that I think are key.

     Here’s another – he never mentions, everything happened so fast in any of his statements that I’m aware of…this is standard verbiage that you will be stated….but he doesn’t say that because he has too much invested in you believing his half-cocked, non-specific tale to suggest anything happened other than exactly what he is telling you.

     Other than grabbing Trayvon’s hands from his face, holding Trayvon’s arm while simultaneously shooting and then shooting, he does nothing offensive or defensive for over a minute. In fact, he claims he was like a rag doll not even resisting Trayvon’s backward’s thrust of his head into the ground. He just played possum, until Trayvon reached for his gun and of course, he had to shoot. Impossible! He’s lying but not doing it well.

     • If it happened so fast and it’s one big horrible blur, then maybe he’s mistaken about some of what he says and that calls it into question.

       This way we are meant to believe it because he is so clear and positive about it. (Apart form it being a different version each time etc etc).

       Actually once the fight starts, in some versions he says NOTHING about himself at all. Almost like describing something he saw, not something he was involved in. Grabbing the hand snaking towards the gun is the only thing he does before shooting.

       In other versions he wriggles onto the grass by trying to lift his head/upper body, TM slams his head back down but somehow this gets him bit by bit to a grassier area.

       Actually if someone SITS on your chest you can’t breathe.But it leaves your legs free to kick or get leverage with for shifting location. It also puts their knees about level with your shoulder, so how do you reach around to pull a gun? Actually how do THEY reach for that gun (or even get to see it as it’s about level with the middle of their leg)?

       If they get 2 actors to demonstrate to the court what he is saying, the case is over. Too late then to start saying happened so fast, big blur etc.

       • aussie yes i was thinking the same thing, a recreation of the battle for THE gun is needed at the trial, not only was the gun behind trayvon and under him, it was also under george and on the inside of his pants in the dark…his bullshit story is just not plausible.

       • Good one, aussie! I forgot about the wiggling into grass but you make a good point…another omission…his legs are just there like limp noodles as he never describes what he is doing, I guess…the details he provides are bs and the omissions are telling! 🙂

     • Here’s part of a reply I posted awhile back on MSN while debating with one of the regulars there…

       This was their remark to me, “Self defense does not require multiple hits only reasonable belief that serious bodily injury or death is imminent.”

       This is my reply: You see, there in lies the problem with GZ and his ‘self-defense’ claim. What ‘reasonable’ person do you know or believe, would allow themselves to be pummeled, have their head repeatedly bashed against a sidewalk, and not have any type of defensive wounds to himself or his attacker, well, except the fatal bullet wound to the chest! He even expects us to believe that, after the initial punch and he stumbles some 30-40 ft, and only ‘sissy swatted’ him away. LOL! C’mon, even two year old toddlers will instinctively strike back, it’s in our nature.

       • I don’t get it either, Tina. This has lead me to strongly believe that at the point he said that he was reaching for his cell phone is when he reached for the gun. That is the only plausible explanation for him not being able to use his hands. If someone pulls a gun on you at close range, running is probably not an option, but likely Trayvon thought that he could get away by clocking him one up aside the head. If George continued to hold onto him they probably both fell to the ground. There are elements of truth in his story, enough to be convincing to some. However specialist have seen these types of cases over and over again and are able to quickly see discrepancies. I also have to give credit to analytical minds like ours who won’t just let things go. 🙂

         • @ San San B –

           “There are elements of truth in his story, enough to be convincing to some. However specialist have seen these types of cases over and over again and are able to quickly see discrepancies.”

           That is my prayer. I see it. I just hope others can let go of whatever it is their beliefs allow them to justify to see the truth. willi’s best fight ever video above is applicable. Maybe instead of sunlight, we need sunglasses that show what other people see.

     • Agree- he’s lying IMO about the death grip he had on the teen’s hoodie the whole time, trying to detain him. His cries for help are cries to get help detaining the youth. His story plays like something a double amputee would say!

       The 45.5 foot stumble is a classic moment in mission: omission land. First, leave the entire episode out of every account, then finally when taken to the scene quickly he invents the long distance stumble event of the decathlon but forgets to say what if anything Trayvon did while he migrates south for the winter. He “thinks” maybe he played slap hands and maybe he was pushed or maybe he slipped and fell… When every other time he was savagely knocked to the ground and instantly mounted like a barnyard hen!

       He’s also invented a way to get from frank taaffes to RVC without ever seemingly being in motion at the same time he is in sight of the teen. Amazing magic trick!

       • That was so funny and well said, ty !

       • willisnewton

         Please stop with the parody! “migrates south for the winter” and this one is classic…”mounted like a barnyard hen!” LORL!!!! Thanks for the laugh, friend…

       • now that I’ve cleaned my keyboard of coffee AGAIN….

         You are right. That is a glaring omission from ALL other accounts which makes a lie out of the attack-at-the-T story. Which makes a lie out of the whole back-to-truck story too.

         Now let’s go back to cartography.

         Willis, just after Taaffe’s there’s a bend in the road. TM is just standing around on the grass, not going anywhere. So it only takes GZ 2 secs to disappear around the bend. No magic here.

         (Of course then it only takes him 4.5 secs to get to the clubhouse, while it takes TM 95 secs to walk there but manages to catch up. Then it takes TM 1:20 to get invisible at the T but GZ drives and parks in 7 secs and TM is already coming back OUT of the T to circle his truck).

         I’d like you guys with the Ridgeline brochures to please find out which model specification includes the Warp Drive. And how much extra it is.

         • Unless I miss my guess it’s the Captain James T. Kirk edition.

       • Maybe we’ll hear TM was skipping alongside GZ as he stumbled all that way down south. I mean, why not skip while playing patty-cake?

         • HAHAHAHAHA…that gave me a good belly laugh!

       • Let’s see if I’ve got this right:

         GZ is punched in the face from behind, falls to the ground immediately with TM pouncing on top of him and, GZ, with his head on a piece of sharp soft concrete, he stumbles 40.5 feet while his head is being continually bashed on the soft sharp concrete block that follows them then disappears.

         Gee, hardly a wonder he feared for his life, eh? I mean, if this story isn’t just dreadfully frightening I have no idea what would be. Only things missing is Norman Bates and/or Freddie Kruger.

         • @Lonnie –

           You have such a way with words!

           “while his head is being continually bashed on the soft sharp concrete block that follows them then disappears.”

           LOLLL!!

           • I had to write something, if only to try to get the picture of Pee Wee Herman — straddling a broken nosed and bleeding Hulk Hogan — who can do nothing but reach for his gun, out of my head.

     • I felt sick to my stomach hearing Zimmerman’s laugh in the Hannity interview. This was his smug response to being the only one who knows how the altercation began that night and that he was/is the victim who survived to tell the story. Only a messed up conscience could laugh about such a serious crime where he took someones life. But in all reality no one but George ZImmerman was an eye witness to all the facts of the altercation and what happened next. In the reenactment tape he plays out how it started at the top of the T where suddenly he is challenged by Trayvon’s appearance to his right side. He remembers that and the following verbal attack almost too well. Immediately after denying not having a problem he reached for his phone and realised it wasn’t in the same pocket where he always carries it. He assumes Trayvon thought he was reaching for a gun so was punched right then and there, beaten to the ground with head slamming into the sidewalk. While being pinned down and unable to fight back he now manages to shift his body 90 degrees away from the sidewalk and that is when his gun was exposed. It wasn’t so many months ago we learned of his statement forgetting he had his gun until the moment his shirt rose up when Trayvon first noticed it and told GZ he was going to die that night. Zimmerman portrays himself as the victim who was in submission at all times, helplessly being beaten to almost losing consciousness. The factual part of this story is there was a fight for the gun and the person who was holding it was George Zimmerman. All the little details of what was supposedly said he clearly remembers, but has a hard time explaining so many crucial parts of what happened leading up to this. As you brought up he doesn’t explain logically how they landed up at the actual site of the killing, but he reenacts how he was attacked and stumbled and landed on the ground pinned down which was about five feet from the top and short 40 odd feet south where Trayvon’s body was found laying. How could he forget less than 24 hours later where the shooting actually took place but remembers all the words that were spoken by Trayvon. Ear witness accounts say they heard voices arguing that got louder as they neared to the crime scene. This was also where the first eyewitness saw the two wresting on the ground which was between 40 and 50 feet from the top of the T. Zimmerman knew if his self defense claim was to stick he had to change how the altercation and attack began and when and how he disarmed the gun. The injuries he sustained do not prove his head was deliberately slammed into cement, he could easily have gotten them by falling and tossing around on the ground in the struggle.. From what has been released in the court evidence along with all the inconsistancies in this mans story it is hard to not see he is lying. Heck, he already proved himself a bold faced liar in front of a judge. The worst thing that could happen is he being declared guiltless and the innocent victim of this horrible crime. That and the smear upon Trayvon’s name would be a travesty of justice in the US courts.

       • I need to correct this: ” Zimmerman knew if his self defense claim was to stick he had to change how the altercation and attack began and when and how he disarmed the gun.”

         “….and when and how Trayvon tried to disarm the gun.”

         GZ’s reenactment scene is so ridiculous. If he rehearsed this in his mind beforehand, he did a lousy job.

         @Lonnie, as serious as this subject is, I had to chuckle at the Bates/Kruger piece.

         • Yes it is very serious, but… I felt we still needed a chuckle about now. Too much, all horror all the time; “makes johnny a very weird boy”, so to speak.

139. Yes, this is off topic. But in light of today tragic events in Colorado…looks like GZ and MOM may have lost few days, if not weeks of media attention. Hopefully his financial supporters will come to their senses, and realize that they need to divert those funds to the injured and families of those who’ve lost loved ones. These are REAL VICTIMS of a horrendous crime and need to be support in every way possible. I lift up in prayer the survivors, family, friends, and loved ones of those lost today. In Jesus Holy Name, Amen!

     • Amen to that, Tina.

     • And it’s even more awesome that after “going rogue” and possibly paying some media consultant that the link to the “donate” portion of the gzlegal site results in a 404!

       What was that about “God’s plan” zimmerman said?

     • I join you in saying Amen, Tina.

     • Absolutely, and Amen.

140. I found this about the Honda Ridgeline headlamps, read some discussion about the lights, hope this helps in the analysis….

     read comment by zroger73

     http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39755

     • read comments by zroger73

     • This is a repeat of a post made somewhere above. Sorry about that…

       I found a 2007 Honda Ridgeline manual. In there they state that a reminder chime will sound when the door opens while the headlight control dial is not in the off off position => It is either on “parking lights on” or on “headlights on”.

       Milo, have you tested the two lights positions with your colleague? If yes, is it the same chime sound?

       • I just found it interesting that the poster on that thread commented on a specfic sequence that must be met so the lights do go off. I am still looking for chime sounds and or a video of how the interior buttons work and for how long.

         • Also the poster also states that the lights stay on for 15 seconds, but if you don’t follow the sequence they will stay on.

         • @Loree –

           Exactly. Just posted the same thing below.

       • I found this video,
         At least we can see the interior and some sounds as to windows etc, He talks and talks but it is a 2007 honda ridgeline.
         Best I can do on research for now.

         • That’s the one I saw, too, Loree. It’s the same one NLME posted when he analyzed the sounds we heard on Zimmerman’s original call. It’s speculated that the lights are on, but I don’t see then on in this video when the videotaper walked around the car and then opened the door before inserting the key. The door open siren was the same as on the call from Zimmerman.

           This all leads me to believe that the door open siren is unrelated to the lights being on although I first thought otherwise.

           • Didn t realized it was shown already. Sorry for the double posting.

         • Given the nature of our beast (wordpress), I highly doubt repeats are added for anything other than further exploration except in screw ups like mine that end up causing duplicates or double-posts. I hope NLME welcomes reintroduction of things of interests.

       • @tchoupi –

         “I found a 2007 Honda Ridgeline manual. In there they state that a reminder chime will sound when the door opens while the headlight control dial is not in the off off position => It is either on “parking lights on” or on “headlights on””

         It goes beyond the parking parking lights on or the headlights on because the vehicle makes alert noise for other combinations of driver behavior. Leaving the key in certain positions without exiting the driver side leaves the lights on for 10 minutes. Leaving the back window open triggers other behavior relating to the bed, IIRC or understand.

         • I understand that CSFC, but the specific chime noise corresponds to one case. NMLE & Milo have already narrowed it down to “Door opened while light is on”.

           My question is basically what light has to be on? headlight or parking light?

           According to the manual I’ve found, it doesn’t matter. If lights are off => no chime. If parking light on => chime. If headlight on => chime.

           I have a Mazda & and a Honda. In both, when I open the door with either headlight or parking light on, I get the same reminder chime sound. The Honda, actually give a chime sound that is very similar to that of the Ridgeline (maybe the same actually).

           So, my guess is that GZ parked and moved from Headlight to Parking light. Hence, the headlights switching of on the video, and the reminder chime when he exits his car during his call.

         • The video above shows the headlight control knob in the first indent, which I BELIEVE is the parking light position.

           That’s why this Ridgeline makes that chime when he opens the door.

         • @tchoupi and milo –

           “The video above shows the headlight control knob in the first indent, which I BELIEVE is the parking light position.”

           That makes sense. The headlights are NOT actually on. It’s the CONTROL KNOB that is set for position 3 which is “headlights” (@6:15 in the video). In the video above, the car had apparently been sitting long enough for the lights to go off automatically. The guy videotaping turns the control knob to position 2 which is “parking”. The door chime can still be heard when he re-enters the truck @10:00.

           To me, this part alone doesn’t show anything about what was seen on the videos (vehicle direction, timing, etc.), but it does lead one to believe that Zimmerman took his keys when he left the truck.

           Your clubhouse video analysis is a stand-alone piece of evidence, imo. But what if the lights were the bed lights? Is that even possible?

           In the video above, I think I see Zimmerman @0:25 wearing his red “sweater”.

     • Nice find. That commenter (zroger73) says this:

       “3. You must turn off the ignition, remove the key, open, then close the driver’s door for the auto-off feature to work. If you do not follow the proper sequence, such as turning off the ignition and removing the key after you have already opened the door, the headlights will not turn off after 15 seconds and will stay on until the battery saver feature activates.”

       The manual for the 2007 Ridgeline says this (at p77 manual, p83 web):

       If you remove the key from the
       ignition switch with the headlight
       control dial on, but do not open the
       door, the lights will turn off after 10
       minutes.

       ————
       Speculation and scenarios for dings and lights:

       (1) I take the info in the manual to mean that to accept a theory that George Zimmerman left his lights on to illuminate his view down the dog-walk path for more than 15 seconds from the Twin Trees side, you must also accept that Zimmerman did not exit his ridgeline vehicle from the driver’s side. I doubt Zimmerman exited his suv from the passenger side unless both he and another driver were in his suv. DeeDee didn’t mention a second person, so doubt is cast on that particular theory.

       (2) Another possibility for having headlights remain on for 10 minutes would be to exit the vehicle with the window open on the driver’s side. Then one could reinsert the key and re-remove it to activate the 10 minutes of light feature. We don’t know the vehicle’s window position because we don’t have the car as evidence. This could also be why a pre-planned emergency response put in motion by “just tell her I shot somebody” might alert Shellie Zimmerman that the car is in unalarmed mode with key in ignition and in need of a “trusted” person to come retrieve/secure it. Note, too, that the pro-Zimmerman sites often mention a window roll-down event we haven’t seen any evidence of but they pushed hard. Why?

       (3) The lights on the SUV could have had an aftermarket pre-programmable feature installed. We can’t know now based on the fact that the vehicle was moved and not examined or secured by SPD.

       (4) The honda ridgeline has lights on the rear bed that seem to behave based on what the driver has done as a “safety” feature. I think some are auto based on whether or not the vehicle driver has closed up back windows and such. What’s the lighting effect on the clubhouse or the dog-walk path if Zimmerman does NOT make a u-turn, but instead uses the light from the rear bed?

       • We need to know the year of Zimmerman’s vehicle. Also what should probably be researched is recalled for the vehicle if the year of its make is available.

         My research is for a 2007 honda ridgeline. The manual can be downloaded here:

         http://www.onlinefreeebooks.net/autos/car/2007-honda-ridgeline-owners-manual-pdf.html (but you have to enter their friggin outdated “captcha” to get to it.

         • okie dokie!

       • We need to know the year of Zimmerman’s vehicle. Also what should probably be researched is recalled for the vehicle if the year of its make is available.

         My research is for a 2007 honda ridgeline. The manual can be downloaded here:

         http://www.onlinefreeebooks.net/autos/car/2007-honda-ridgeline-owners-manual-pdf.html

         (but you have to enter their friggin outdated “captcha” to get to it.

       • Maybe if i have time this weekend will go over the GZ first NEN call and double check times and chimes.

       • You are making it too complicated. What if he opened the door first, then removed the key, then shut the door. Doesn’t that make the headlights stay on until the battery save feature kicks in after ten minutes?

         I can’t recall exactly where but I think GZ said he could see his car “the whole time” he was at RVC and talking to dispatch.

         The headlights also give yet another reason GZ may have missed TM if TM stopped in the vicinity of John’s back yard or 1211 TTL, and that is that if GZ turned back to look, he’d be blinded by the flare of his own headlamps. Parking on the straight part of TTL seems intentional so the headlights would aim to the T. If he had pulled to the curve he’s lose that effect.

         • No. I don’t think that works. If I understand how this thing works, he’d have only 15 seconds before the lights go out.

         • If GZ could see his car the entire time then Frank Taaffe and W2 are wrong.

         • Of course he’s wrong in saying he could see his car the whole time! But don’t quote me on that – i can’t remember where I heard that just now.

           And don’t get me stated on Frank “according to George” Taaffe, who claims he parked facing the clubhouse, put the punch that knocked GZ to the ground at the keychain’flashlight location 8 feet or so south of the T, and inexplicably claims GZ walked north on the dog walk path from very far south before the altercation. That man tells nothing but lies, as far as I can tell.

           My overall point is that I do think GZ parked facing the T as a final position, which calls into question the idea that he observed TM at the mailboxes from that position. I’ve already mentioned the “long tail” problem with that position anyway. For GZ to be parked at the cut thru, the timing of TM walking towards his car suggests he’s be LONG GONE by the time he passes and GZ sees him and says “sh*t, he’s running.” It seems to take TM around 34 seconds to pass the car, and then he walks for another 30. Where would he be if GZ was already parked by the cut thru? Out of eyesight, it seems to me.

           I don’t believe for one second that TM doubled back to circle the car since there is NO WAY to align that action with the NE call and/or all of GZ’s contradictory and inconsistent statements. There’s only one way to make thte timing all work in my bok, and that’s to use the position GZ himself marked on a map, the one at the corner of TTL by the mailboxes. Then, he moved a short distance to the position where his lights would shine down the cut thru for however long they did – I don’t personally see the significance of how long – most likely 15 seconds it seems, or about the length of time it took for GZ to start banging on his flashlight.

         • I believe GZ says he headlights were on after he left the vehicle in one of his various statements. But we can take his comments with a grain of salt.

           • I can’t see what you’re replying to on WordPress’ app but I believe milo confirmed the Ridgeline’s lights go off — even if left on — in less than 30 seconds.

141. After reading the transcript because I missed the beginning of the Hannity interview I just noticed some things.

     So at the beginning of the call when Zimmerman was just innocently sitting in his car on the phone Martin put his hands in his waistband and GZ believes it was in order to intimidate him…why? Why was trayvon trying to intimidate someone unless that person had already made their presence felt, why would gz feel trayvon wanted to intimidate him, this tells me George didn’t just drive past trayvon, call the cops, park and then wait as trayvon walked past (I believe this was when he said he was at the clubhouse, before he moved to the cut through). If gz thinks that trayvon is already finding reason to intimidate him, at that early part of the call, then he must know that he had already done something to make trayvon suspicious of him.

     The way he was coming back..back from where? This certainly did not happen at the cut through, GZ said he moved his car during the call. If someone “came back” to check you out and circle you, they would not then run away…and if they did why wouldn’t you just let them. All lies.

     I still can’t get over that Trayvon was skipping down the path..he came back, circled your car, put his hand in his waistband to intimidate you and then skipped off. Sure.

     Going in the same direction as someone to keep an eye on them is following, George. Just to clear that up.

     As he was shimmy-ing (oh lawd) his jacket rose up. And trayvon who was punching and banging his head saw the gun situated behind/under him and behind/under George on the inside of his pants while he was laying on it in the dark…ok..i really hope they try to recreate this in the trial. i.m.p.o.s.s.i.b.l.e.

     HANNITY: Now, there was an eyewitness that was out from the very beginning that, in fact, did tell the police the night of the shooting that he saw Trayvon on top of you and did see the beating. There is no witness to the actual shooting itself, right? Correct.
     ZIMMERMAN: Besides myself………at this point he laughed gleefully (which they forgot to put in the transcript…I’m sure it was an innocent mistake)

     I hate when he says it’s a finite situation “I have been placed in”….as though he was put there by the actions of others and once again nothing to do with HIS actions.

     It really bugs me that he can blatantly lie and expect people to believe him. He claims not to know that trayvon was in bad shape, after having to get out from under him, after jumping on his back, after the child laying there in the grass not moving while he paced and spoke to witnesses, but he didn’t know that trayvon was hurt. Why lie about this? It is infuriating.

     So Hannity didn’t pay his legal fees but he has probably donated to the “legal” fund and paid for their accommodation amongst other things.

     He encouraged Shellie to finish her nursing degree then gets her to lie for him under oath so if she is convicted she will probably not find work with a record, although she has not been convicted yet so she can still get a job now rather than beg for hand outs.

     So he called the cops on black kids…and also hispanic kids and white kids. Always younger people.

     • “If gz thinks that trayvon is already finding reason to intimidate him, at that early part of the call, then he must know that he had already done something to make trayvon suspicious of him.”

       I’d like to know how Zimmerman puts forth that Trayvon Martin attacked him based on knowing Zimmerman called the police on him. The only other person I have seen put forth such a ridiculous theory is a racist poster that infiltrated viewfromll2.com that was eventually banned from posting.

       Trayvon was minding his own business and thought he lost the creepy guy following him per DeeDee. He was free to get back to chilling on the phone with his friend ‘Dee’Dee — until Zimmerman crept up on him from his predatory position.

       • Ohhh, the “TM had his hand in his waistband and was acting like a thug with a gun trying to intimidate poor GZ” was all over the place for a while. Funny thing is…”his waistband” is really just code for his fucking hoodie pockets. FT said as much in an interview. FT was asked how TM was beating GZ when he was carrying an iced tea/watermelon drank/whatever, and FT started screaming that he didn’t have the can in his hand, but that it was IN HIS WAISTBAND. Pockets…waistband…waistband…pockets. Yeah, not the same thing. Saying “waistband” is just a way to make another innocent action a devious, intimidating one.

         • All young people are dangerous.

           DEPORTMENT TIP: Arms were wrongly designed. They should be carried at all times folded on the chest. Any moving them to waist or lower levels is an intimidation.

           FASHION TIP: Carrying everything they own in their WAISTBANDS accounts for all the saggy pants though…. if they leave the waist loose enough to tuck shopping into, the pants must slide down.

         • Kids scare me all the time. 😛

           Thanks for the laugh, @aussie. It’s really hard to be serious on this topic sometimes considering the absurdity of GZ’s claims.

         • Great point. This waistband thing needs to be corrected in the case. A waistband is NOT a pocket, it just means the elastic or buttoned top band of pants. The hoodie pocket is a pocket. If you take to hoodie off, the contents of the pocket are not at one’s waist. They are making the hoodie pocket sound likethe place where a hoodlum like GZ stuffs a gun – that is a waistband. Totally inaccurate to use this term at all with TM.

     • You know what else is weird? Seeing 3 different neighbors come outside that he said he asked for help. Do you think O’Mara is going to go find some new witness that lives along the dog-walk to say they witnessed everything?

     • @Jo –

       “He encouraged Shellie to finish her nursing degree then gets her to lie for him under oath so if she is convicted she will probably not find work with a record, although she has not been convicted yet so she can still get a job now rather than beg for hand outs.”

       I saw it posted on another forum that the Zimmermans could each work from home if they really wanted to earn money and not just sit around begging and expecting another windfall. Made sense to me.

       • Yup. Didn’t Jose Baez/Cheney Mason do this for Casey Anthony after her trial? I’m sure there would be someone who would feel for GZ and allow him to work some kind of job from home.

         • Didn’t he work as an insurance/mortgage agent? Many of them work right from home. However, the more he talks, the more his voice will be recognizable. Can you imagine getting a call from him when you go online to get a quote for insurance? It’ll be harder for Shellie to get a nursing job, if in fact she was really that close to one. I’m not sure what kind of nursing degree she was actually going for. Someone said she was taking classes online mostly at home right?. Must be a certificate program to be a medical assistant. LPNs and certainly RNs require on campus / clinical time.

         • Speaking of JB, if Zimmerman was not talking about Sean Hannity, who is SH? Maybe Zimmerman was just messing with the heads of the jailhouse call monitors? Hard to tell.

       • Haha was that a serious suggestion?

         Because on one news comment site I DID see suggested they could work from home, but it was just a work-from-home scam being spammed. Most of these, I believe, charge fees and lead to a net loss, so can’t be relied on for funding lengthy celebrity trials.

     • I agree that what the police did in the video in my view not complete. GZ should have really reenacted the fight. I have also ponder why GZ did not fight back, I can only conculed that having a firearm gave him the edge, I think TM proved him wrong. Also as I understand it TM was exhausted, his girlfriend I believe did say she could hear heavy breathing. TM did not seem to have been doing any weight training, so I find it hard to believe TM could do the damage to ZM as he claims, the Doctors report seems to bear that out, injuries were minor and already healing, GZ saw the Doctor the next day. Also no factures, dizzness, GZ was orientated X4 meaning normal. I have seen people get head blows, GZ was hit on the concert as hard as he said, he more than likely be confussed and disorentated he would have drawn his cell phone to shoot TM and use the gun to call his wife.

       • ” I have seen people get head blows, GZ was hit on the concert as hard as he said, he more than likely be confussed and disorentated he would have drawn his cell phone to shoot TM and use the gun to call his wife.”

         LOL!! For real. I’ve had my head whacked on concrete. If his head hit the concrete, most likely from mutual jostling around.

       • John W. “….he would have drawn his cell phone to shoot TM and use the gun to call his wife.” That was so funny. lol, I guess we have to use a little humor once in a while.

       • @John W. –

         I hope so. I was watching gunnora’s vids (above) and I can’t see how Zimmerman used only one hand to fire the shot from an elbow on the ground position.

         I think he had both hands free because Trayvon Martin was NOT on top of him.

         • Yes!
           I forgot to include that in my other post. He had one hand holding him down Trayvon’s hoodie/shirt rides up, didn’t want to hit his hand, he is concentrating on not hitting his hand but his intended target. He doesn’t realize how close the gun is to his face, the kickback as suggested in gunnora’s video shows that if you don’t hold that gun with two hands , you can get whacked pretty hard if its close your face. He shoots, the recoil hits him in the nose. One or two drops of blood end up on TM undershirt because he was holding the hoodie up away from the undershirt. Explains why there is no blood of GZ under Trayvon because the hit in the nose happened after GZ shot him.

         • @Loree –

           That’s how I’m looking at it, too. I’m not a gun expert although I’m apparently a damn good shot. My only experience with shooting firearms is at the range. I used both hands stretched out aiming at the target.

         • CSFC, It’s been nagging me for days why Zimmerman told that weird story about his left hand reaching across his body to grab Trayvon’s arm to prevent him from reaching the gun. Then he adds that part about trying to avoid shooting his left hand. I’m thinking he made that up because he knew there would be sufficient gunshot residue on his left hand if he held the gun with both. Now it’s beginning to make sense – he had complete control over the gun with both hands.

     • Or…Trayvon’s phone could have been on his waistband. In pictures of him on GlobalGrind, a few months before, you can see his phone on his waistband. And we know he was off and on the phone with Dee Dee. “Something in his hand” could have been his phone.

142. Interesting link about defense wound (on wiki).

     “Defensive wounds are often found on the hands and forearms, where the victim has raised them to protect the head and face or to fend off an assault”

     What does it mean when the victim of an assault shows no defense wound?

     • GZ had no wounds showing he fought off an attack, and TM has no wounds showing GZ fought off an attack. The whole point of self-defense is to fight, not wait around til you’re real scared and shoot. In this situation, TM had no weapon other than fists, so GZ should have attempted any and all reasonable means under the circumstances. He did not. Personally, I think that neither he or TM have wounds showing he attempted to fight hurts him, but his defenders seems to think it helps. I don’t. There are certain instances where victims of assault may not fight back that are understandable, but this does not seem to be one of them.

       • First rule of self-defense is evasion – Umm…who ran? Yeah…we know. GZ is a damn liar.

         • Well, Trayvon only skipped away…so.

           I know this has been talked about before (several times) but skipped?!?

         • Life is stranger than fiction – I defy anyone of you to find fiction, movie, tv show where someone skipped away in evasion.

       • In the interview at the police station he said he “pinched his arm” to keep him from getting the gun… So we have TM skipping away and GZ pinching his arm to keep him from getting the gun… So now all they have to do is find that mark he left from the pinch to prove that GZ did in fact try to protect himself and exhausted all means of defense before resulting to the gun….

         errrr uuummm… I’m sorry but you go from being a bouncer/security to PINCHING someone in self defense?!?!?! Seriously. I would have called BS and threw him in handcuffs right there. I wonder if he knows how stupid he sounds. He is trying way too hard to make himself look innocent.

         He should just come out and admit – “I profiled him. I jumped to judgement and was almost certain he was behind the breakins in the area. I wanted to detain him until the police got there so I drew my weapon to force him to stay put. He got scared when he saw the gun, and since i never ID’d myself he had no idea who I was. I overstepped my boundaries as a NW. It was an accident. I didn’t mean to shoot him” It’s really not that hard to admit the truth Georgie Porgie!

     • Also, GZ’s claim that he just kept trying to lift his head, but TM was sooo quick, and would slam it back down is dumb as f***. Pretty quickly, you learn not to lift your head when it’s being slammed into ground. Also, if you can wiggle several feet into grass, you can get your 158lb attacker off you.

       • exactly, if someone is sitting on you you punch, scratch, eye gouge, punch in the nuts, try to thrust them off, roll (not shimmy)…i dare say you would also yell at your attacker, swear and curse, not look people in the eye and yell help, help me (unless you are penelope pitstop)..it was a struggle for control, nothing more. He wanted to control Tray, wanted him to do what he was told, tried to hold him, possibly at gun point, a huge wrestle for the gun maybe, or maybe trayvon was just trying to break free and didn’t know about the gun until george had had time to have a good look around and make sure there were no more witnesses on their porch and bang. I think the lack of defensive wounds and the lack of attack wounds show that this was mainly a wrestle….why were they wrestling, because GZ didn’t want another one to get away..and as he just said himself, he knew the police were in the vicinity, he was yelling so they could find him, not because he was getting his ass kicked but because he couldn’t hold this kid much longer.

       • And all the time he was screaming for help at the top of his lungs, TM was just whispering “shut the fuck up” into his ear… certainly never said it loud enough to come through on the tape.

         Really this needs to be reenacted by someone with a video camera. Use a piece of foam mattress to represent the concrete path.

         IF TM sits on GZ’s chest then why isn’t he doing anything with his limp wet-noodle legs to buck him off? (oh he’d not be able to breathe with 158 lbs on his chest but the only reason he ever says he can’t breathe is from the hand on his nose).

         If TM sits further down, at GZ’s hip or thigh level, that disables GZ’s legs, but then frees up his upper body for sitting up, grabbing at TM’s arms, using elbows for leverage to get up OR move sideways OR to ROLL.

         It had to be one or the other. To simultaneously FIT on someone’s chest AND thigh area, an attacker would need to be at least 300 Lbs. but their thighs would be too thick to bend enough to let them sit back from a kneeling start position.

         If the top person has their knees either side of the bottom one, but is NOT sitting back with his weight on, then the bottom one has a lot of movement available, including kicking, using feet for leverage to move or roll, to buck the other off, and to turn upper body sideways to shield the face.

         The only way the bottom person can’t use their arms to fend off blows is if their arms are PINNED, but that doesn’t give the top person a free hand to do the punching with. A good compromise (for the attacker) would be to use one arm to pin one defence-arm down with, and use the other hand for punching. This leaves the victim a hand free to protect/hit back with, but reduces his ability to use arms for leverage in rolling over.

         • TM was singing him a soft lil lullaby? That’d fit right along with skipping and playing pattycake, eh?

           But I fully agree this needs to be reenacted. It’s already comical enough to listen to the explanation, but to see how ridiculous it is would seal the deal. I’m standing firm on the fact that IF GZ was punched in the location and position he says that he would have fallen facing the houses/towards his car, NOT the concrete walkway. I’m also pretty convinced GZ at some point was pinned, but that he was able to roll TM to gain the on top position. I don’t see the swelling or bruising on GZ at all from the pics. He has a dark cast under his eyes, but I have darker circles than that after a long night. The scratches on his face look more like he took a face plant into the ground and scraped it up. If he’s ever had a broken nose before, that makes his nose susceptible to break again fairly easily. Rather than a brutal beat down, it looks more like a mutual scuffle between two people who probably lunged/swung, toppled to the ground, rolled around/wrestled on concrete then got up moved to the grass, tackled, and wrestled. Even Serino is saying he was at no unfair disadvantage and TM never employed deadly force.

         • @qetno –

           I think this part from your last paragraph is what’s going to be the key.

           “Even Serino is saying he was at no unfair disadvantage and TM never employed deadly force.”

           You can’t use deadly force as self-defense without it.

       • Can *ONE* of the males here tell me they would not fight in the position GZ claims he was in that night??? I have not had a single male tell me they would not fight; I either got the response “Hell yeah I’d be fighting” or “I wouldn’t be in that situation because a) I would not run after someone not committing a crime and/or b) I would not have called in the first place.” As a woman, HELL YEAH, I’D BE FIGHTING…

         O’Mara is trying to say TM engaged GZ in some MMA street fight that was not consented to and he did not know the rules of like TM was some sort of experienced, expert fighter. Furthermore, he acts like a 158lb kid is some sort of brick that can’t be moved. Wtf does he think this is…Mortal Kombat the video game?! LOL. Mortal Kombat meet Matrix meet Incredible Hulk meet Jumper meet… Come back to reality, it’s nice here…the water is fine.

         There definitely needs to be a recreation done with people of similar stature to illustrate the ridiculousness of the scenario and the many ways GZ could have fought back. If someone is sitting on your chest, yeah, that sucks. It doesn’t render you incapable, though. As a kid, my dad and brother would dog pile on top of me when I was taking a nap to wake me up. That’s like over 200lbs on me when I was a kid, and while I certainly felt pinned and like I was being crushed needing to breathe, I was still able to punch, kick, and wiggle usually throwing them off. GZ in his scenario could have rocked side to side while punching. Pull the kid’s hoodie over him, so he’s caught up in it. Cold cock him in the head/face, slam your palm up into the nose (THIS HURTS LIKE A FUCKING BITCH!!!!!) So many ways to fight, especially when your stocky (5’7, 204lbs) and worked as an ex bouncer. TM had no GZ DNA under his nails. NONE. If he did all the shit GZ claims he would have GZ DNA under his nails. Matter easily travels and traps under nails.

         I mean, really, it’s a joke even having to explain the implausibility of the fight on the ground and lack of DNA when the way it started doesn’t even make sense. Start to finish, it doesn’t add up.

         Now, what happens when GZ’s story is successfully (and it will be) deconstructed to the point where there is nothing left? How hard will it be to convince a jury he acted with malice or depraved indifference?

         • Never underestimate the power of criminalizing archetypes. To far too many, Trayvon being black WAS an advantage to even an older, heavier armed man.

           • In a case like this, where GZ was supposedly “sucker punched”, his falling to the ground, under any circumstance, would have been unexpected, and not due to the force of the punch. A punch of the type needed to knock someone down, has to land on the jaw, and GZ would need a “glass jaw”, anyone whose been in a fight knows that a single punch does not usually knock one down. More than likely he’d have slipped on the wet grass as he tried to move.

             Next, while on the ground so suddenly, if someone sits down on top of you, and the entire matter has no friendly overtones at all, then you struggle for your life, because you don’t know what the other persons intent is, they could be reaching for a knife, so you have to right yourself quickly. Fear and reflexes demand that you squirm left, right, grab the other person high above their center of gravity, shoulders, collar, and turn your body, dragging them down by toppling them over. That prevents them from taking other actions, like drawing a knife and plunging it into you. Once they go over, you simply draw your legs up under you and throwing your weight against them, if they’re still engaged, and stand up.

             Your opponent meanwhile, has to try to prevent you from standing, they do this by going for your legs. They come up and try to throw their weight against you to knock you back down. This usually fails because it’s too easy to simply scramble away and stand, while if they stay down, they risk getting kicked.

             This is why when people are on the ground, with one straddling the other, the next thing that usually happens is, they start holding one another and rolling on the ground, because they’re trying to prevent each other from breaking free and standing. GZ wants us to think that he’s never wrestled with anyone before ever in life. That he was totally helpless on the ground, that TM could simply dominate him. But everyone knows that’s untrue, he’d have to be knocked unconscious for that to have happened.

             The Police are letting him go on with his story, after all, he does have a right to present his story to a jury, no matter how badly contrived it is. I doubt any jurors will believe it though.

       • IMO I think GZ knows it was too dark. Nobody CLEARLY saw anything. So he switched what he knows happen to benefit him.

         It wasn’t TM that was trying to keep him down while GZ tried to lift, it was actually GZ grabbing TM sweatshirt to hold him down while TM was trying to get away.

         The two figures that John saw on top of each other was GZ trying to hold him down.

         The yelling for help WAS TM not GZ but he easily switched it because in his mind – nobody will ever know the difference.

         The grass stains on the elbow weren’t from shooting with the arm braced by the ground, it’s from laying on top of him with all of your body weight and trying to smother his screams with one hand, while the other is holding the gun to his chest.

         The “whispers” that trayvon was making into his ear to shut up was actually GZ trying to get him to quiet down so nobody hears and so he doesnt draw anymore attention.

         And I think GZ was on top of TM because if he had shot him from under him the blood still would have come out onto GZ. As to where if GZ was on top it’s less likely for him to get much of TM blood on him except for any splatter.

         I’m placing GZ on top of TM, with GZ doing the covering of the mouth, the “shut up” comments, the “you’re going to die tonight” remark. I think he knows it was too dark and nobody saw any actual faces to be able to make out who was who, but he knows they heard something so he switched all the comments around so that he would be viewed as the victim and TM as the villain.

       • @dimor226 (a newbie here, I think) –

         “It wasn’t TM that was trying to keep him down while GZ tried to lift, it was actually GZ grabbing TM sweatshirt to hold him down while TM was trying to get away.”

         My thoughts exactly. I can see the anguish of TM trying to “get away” from the crazy, creepy stalker guy. I wish I could get this out of my head. It’s haunting for me to think and visualize young people in danger of falling prey to this type of attack. It also *has to be debilitating for parents to know what to teach kids about what to do to protect themselves from this type of attack when the parents aren’t there to guide/instruct.

     • Aussi wrote: “IF TM sits…”

       GZ claims that TM was sitting on his stomach (per MO statement). More generally, he claims that he was mounted by TM (per his own statements).

       However, you can check John’s [W6] or Austin’s [W14] or Teresa’s [W19] statements, that’s not what they saw. They saw 1 man lying on the ground. Even John initially saw just 1 man on the ground. He then realized that actually there were 2 men in an horizontal position with one on top of the other.

       I have difficulties believing that they would have seen only one person lying on the ground if the other was sitting on the one on the ground. I can picture that they saw just one man lying on the ground if they were in a stack as described by John.

       So, if TM wasn’t sitting on GZ, then he couldn’t have punched. That’s also what John said, he saw no flying punches while they were on the ground. He heard no landing punches either.

       All the punching was probably done before they fought on the ground.

       • John (easily impressionable, John), I believe said at one point TM had him mounted, but in the interview with BDLR it becomes one was laying on top of the other, which sounds more like wrestling, which he first described on the 911 call. I think there was a lunge/punch that happened then a break in the fight that leads to being taken down to the ground (grass) and a wrestling match for domination ensues.

       • … and Austin saw a man laying on the ground.

143. CSFC writes “Your clubhouse video analysis is a stand-alone piece of evidence, imo. But what if the lights were the bed lights? Is that even possible?”

     Can the bed lights create such a bright spot on the East Pool video? I’m not convinced about that but I try to keep my mind open.

     What I tried to get from the videos are identifiable patterns. For example, there are patterns for cars on TTL driving toward the east gate and a different pattern for cars on TTL driving toward the north gate. I recommend that you use the correlation table (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII) to identify the patterns yourself.

     I agree with the fact that the route I attribute to GZ is only an assumption. Indeed, those videos show no DNA from that man.
     However, there was a vehicle that showed a sequence of patterns starting with the one of a car driving toward the east gate, and followed with the one of a car driving toward the north gate.
     The light signals from that vehicle were different from the typical pattern though. The signal is longer and cleared on the EPH video which is compatible with a vehicle moving slowly and even stopping by the mailboxes when going toward the east gate. The sequence of signals after u-turn is interrupted which is compatible with a car that parked on TTL. It could also be interpreted as the driver switched off the headlights but kept on going toward the north gate being visible to the video. That second interpretation is valid but unlikely.

     So, is the bright spot that suddenly disappear caused by the truck’s bed? I don’t know. What I know is that it doesn’t look any different from the bright spot created by cars moving toward the north gate. So, what I see likely are headlights.

     I wish someone will run experiments driving/parking/stopping a white Honda Ridgeline by the clubhouse/mailboxes and post the resulting videos. But that’s a dream, I guess…
     My point is that it doesn’t take much effort to make those videos reveal the signals we should get when that car parks by the front of the clubhouse, or stops by the mailboxes, or parks on TTL. It’s almost a shame that it is not done already.

     • I agree. Investigators need to do an official re-enactment of the east pool video and other clubhouse videos to identify what is likely seen.

       Having said that, I keep returning to the “long tail” theory that tells me that however far TM walked to pass GZ’s car, he walked around the same distance away from the car before GZ says he is running, and that means the car is most likely less than halfway down TTL when TM approached it.

       I doubt TM walked fast to the car and slowly away. More likely the opposite.

     • @tchoupi –

       “What I tried to get from the videos are identifiable patterns. For example, there are patterns for cars on TTL driving toward the east gate and a different pattern for cars on TTL driving toward the north gate.”

       Good point. The patterns are an important part.

       I have no clue on whether the bedlights cast a similar light. I’m just trying to grasp conflicting well-reasoned explanations. Remember there’s supposedly a little bit of truth in the liar’s version of events.

       All this light-casting at what angle and what point in time is over my head!

       Some people see flashlights in the clubhouse windows, but I don’t except in maybe one or two instances where it could be either or. I see what’s possibly a security/alarm light that flashes periodically (like maybe every 15 seconds or so).

     • The other thing is Zimmerman could have gotten scared at the moment all his lighting shut off (10 minutes). It’s happened to me before as I was talking to someone while sitting in the car. It doesn’t make you deathly afraid, but it is an unpleasantly weird surprise.

       NLME talked about a moment when Zimmerman “shiats a brick” while on the NEN call. I think that was before Trayvon Martin ran. But not long after that, Zimmerman becomes distracted by something (@2:00 or so) and Trayvon takes off running.

       Suppose both Zimmerman’s and Martin’s reactions are because of the lights going off?

       Zimmerman is afraid of the dark. Martin thinks the crazy dude’s about to get out and pursue him on foot now.

       • yeah OKAY but…. 10 minutes??? where were they for 10 minutes? that is stretching the story double of what we know so far.

         • Possibly at where zimmerman parked. We’ve got over a half hour to account for if we start from the 7-11 purchase. About 20 minutes if we start from Trayvon Martin’s walk time from 7-11 to the mail shed. I’m not sure how much time tchoupi’s video can account for as far as headlights pointing into the clubhouse.

           However, people that remove a key from their vehicle typically do so with an intent to get out or at a minimum, not drive as their trip has ended.

           The Zimmerman NEN call was less than 10 minutes. Zimmerman “remembers” things that occurred before his call actually connected, right? We KNOW Zimmerman doesn’t tell a complete story on the NEN call because he never mentions circling, Taffee’s house or the cut-through from the main road outside the community in the call. How long was Zimmerman watching Trayvon Martin?

           DeeDee said some crazy dude was watching Trayvon Martin.

       • I’m not clear on this. When does the 10 minute shut off start? If it’s when George exits the truck, it should continue to be on until way after the police get there btwn 7:17-7:19, because he exits the truck at approx. 7:11 and it’d stay on until 7:21 or so. The police should have certainly seen the truck.
         It seems more likely it was only on the 15 sec. shutoff.

         • It also occurs to me that people would have noticed and reported 10 minutes of headlights beaming toward the T from the cut-off. That’s a fairly intrusive backyard distraction.

         • It depends on zimmerman’s actions while in the car. If his ridgeline is pointed towards the the clubhouse/mailshed as if Zimmerman had made a u-turn after going down twin trees, we should see the lights shut off on the clubhouse vids IF tchoupi’s vid covers 10 minutes. I don’t know if it did. Zimmerman could have also manually switched the lights to parking or off if tchoupi’s vid evidence shows the lights going off less than 10 minutes after caught on the vid.

           The timing of the police arrival is not being questioned I don’t think. More than likely you are right, it was the 15 second shut-off, but only if Zimmerman didn’t make a u-turn and was parked on the wrong side of the street with his lights shining towards the T path requiring his flashlight. Unless, of course, this light event is also caught in the clubhouse videos and explained in tchoupi’s clubhouse analysis.

144. State entered the interview as evidence !

     Click to access State’s%204th%20Supplemental%20Discovery%207-19-12.pdf

     http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-prosecution-tv-interview-evidence/story?id=16815296

     • The prosecution are going to have a field day with his ridiculous statements. He was admitting his guilt right there. He said it was God’s plan. “I do wish that there was something, anything I could have done that would have put me in the position that I wouldn’t have to take his life,” God doesn’t plan ones actions by making you stalk and kill someone. So if all else fails, blame it on God. Next he will say the devil made him do it. Zimmerman has given every murderer a reason to blame it on someone else.

       • George still has not given any good reason why he violated what he was taught that NW’ers were supposed to do. He has yet to explain any compelling reason why he did not go back to the clubhouse and wait there for the police. Absent a good reason for not meeting the police at the first known and most easily accessed address, that was not along the trail that the suspect had gone, he is without a reason for why he would have to use his gun that night, other than that’s what he wanted to do.

     • I can’t WAIT to see how it will be used. I got a feeling that if they use the “indirect contact” angle, it will go down the same way lying on tv is ok because its directed at a targeted audience and freedom of speech. I hope I’m wrong and Zimmerman’s big mouth gets him carted off to jail again.

       • I don’t know if O’mara is aware of it, but I am pretty sure he told ole Georgie boy one more interview and I am out of HERE!!

     • Seriously, it’s time for MOM to reign in GZ and advise him of HIS RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT!!!!

       • LOL! I agree. He’s said more than enough.

         • Re;time for GZ to shut up and fof MOM to reign him in… in jail calls, (the one where shellie saying george trying to embarass her), GZ tells hers he wants to be out by monday and SZ tells him his father is ready to step in and take over plan [from MOM]. i’d say George is running show=MOM cant reign him in, IMHO
           BTW, SZ perjury judge= Debra S. Nelson, 7/31/12 @1:30pm- she has prosecutorial background.

         • @bgsesq –

           Tell us more about Shellie’s upcoming case, please!

           I totally agree that Zimmerman is running the show. To me, it’s part of his escalation by status of the *who he can manipulate. He’s getting his jollies on running O’Mara who’s his mouthpiece for getting to Judge Lesterman. That’s what I think Judge Lester meant when he said something about the primrose path. Judge Lester said c’Mon man, WTF?!

           Zimmerman’s previous attorneys bailed when Zimmerman usurped their “control” and Zimmerman went rogue and contacted Hannity and attempted to contact SA Corey. Didn’t work out. Time for a new sucker to achieve goals.

           • SZ perjury case link: http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001792A
             Re: MOM reigning in GZ: during “embarassing family” jail call, sounded like GZ was going to dump MOM if he wasn’t out of jail by Monday. Appear GZ running show- not sure why MOM sticking his neck out like this???
             Sorry if I’m not posting in the right spot- I’m new at this and I dont have the hang of it yet. If someone would point me to how to post, I’d much appreciate it!t
             BTW, I always snsed that GZ hit himself in the nose with gun, so the gun re-coil theory sounds brilliant to me. The nose hit was on his right side, which aligns with right handed gun hold. Not sure that TV could have hit GZon right side of his nose with TV’s right hand?????

             • Is that going to be televised on Tru Tv. So I can record it.

           • Forgot to mention: can google SZ perjury judge Debra S. Nelson- she started out as prosecutor in Broward Co (Ft Lauderdale)

           • GZ court case link: http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001083A looks like next court date for GZ case is 8/8 @ 8:30 am- looks like it was scheduled prior to motion to disqualify Judge Lester. Reading court docket makes it pretty clear that motion to disqualify was desparate attempt to stop release of W9’s statements. MOM tried everything to stop release of W9’s statements.

         • Why should MOM give up a perfectly good excuse for losing the case?
           “My clients failure to follow my advice met with the expected disastrous consequences, we will appeal!”

           That laughing and chuckling seems to be saying that he can’t believe his luck!
           Of course, if he was in the right, he would not be considering any of this matter, “luck” or “good fortune”, that can only happen if he as getting away with an undiscovered wrong. There’s never any thing lucky or fortunate about killing an innocent person. Thus, GZ’s chuckle shows that he’s guilty in his very own mind.

       • LOL
         He doesn’t get the part
         Anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law.
         He thinks he is smarter then the lawyers, judges, and of course us the public.

         • He thinks (like O’Mara does) it can all be “explained away”.

           • Ha!

           • He won’t get it until he’s in front of an actual jury. Then he’ll begin to realize that his words will be frozen in stone. With the jurors ability to find fact, you don’t want to present them with too many conflicting statements.

             If you go back and read from our first board here, through to the second board, after the bond hearing and after GZ is caught lying. Look at how GZ’s word is given respect at first, and then look again and see what happens when that respect is taken away. You don’t want that to happen in a jury room.
             Most especially not, when you are your only best witness.

             Jurors don’t need witnesses or actual evidence to prove any point, they only have to conclude, for whatever reasons they decide to, that a certain thing is the most likely one to have happened. Which is why they’re called “finders of fact”. If you are caught lying, they will have to discount your first hand accounts and look to other evidence to guide them. GZ is toast!

             He may be feeling free to chuckle and laugh now, but it isn’t going to be a laughing matter when he sees that gurney ride looming!

       • I honestly think O’Mara wants Zimmerman to bury himself. Otherwise, he has a nearly insurmountable challenge.

145. There was a .pdf of all the discovery that was held in limbo, and there was a document dump. Does anyone have a list of all the things that were on the .pdf but not in the document dump? One that comes to mind is GZ’s phone records, and another is Singleton’s interview summary with FBI. We saw Serino’s but I don’t recall seeing hers.

     • We are also missing the CCTV footage from the apartments to the west of the Retreat – a view facing Rinehart & Orlando, the buildings with big awnings at the front, that on an early version of DeeDee’s statement, Trayvon may have been sheltering under.

       I would also like to see the phone camera images of TM and GZ that officer Mike Wagner took at the time, to show to people to see if they could identify them. This would be the ONLY full face photo of GZ before anyone got to clean him up.

       • Not that I really want to see Trayvon’s remains, but I’d like to see the photo taken of him by the same guy who got the one of the back of George’s head, because there’s a better chance of that photo being before anyone but George messed with the body.

         unitron

         • Ditto. Maybe they can sketch it instead.

           On another note, my apologies for jacking up your posting name as “omnitron”.

           • Ditto. Not to be seen as wanting to see a dead Trayvon, but from an evidence standpoint.

             Also, the picture the officers showed to Tracey Martin, he described that the pictured showed a tear(s) on Trayvon’s face.

             I have thought for the longest time, that a person who is supposedly beaten you within an inch of your life, would cry for you too. Its just lunancy. It just shows to me that at some point GZ did get control of the fight/ scuffle with Trayvon. He gets on top of Trayvon. He was holding him down. That is why his shirt and hoodie does not match up to the bullet entry. I believe it was off by and inch or so. While holding him down Trayvon does see the gun, and even on the 911 calls from a neighbor you hear on the tape ” Im begging you get off”. Its not typical to beg if a person is just holding you, only if they have a gun. He gets to shed a tear before he is shot, but GZ doesn’t care (depraved mind) he does it anyway, because in his mind he just knows this is another asshole, coon that would of gotten away if he doesn’t shoot. He also justifies his intent to shoot because he just got his ass handed to him by a teenaged hoodlum in HIS neighborhood. We all know the rest. But that picture that Mr. Martin was shown, will be blown up the size of a billboard, and that tear(s) will truly say who was in fear that night.

           • “On another note, my apologies for jacking up your posting name as “omnitron”.”

             Shhhh!

             That’s my secret crime fighter alter ego nobody’s supposed to know about!

             : – )

             unitron

         • LOL! You ain’t right!

           • “LOL! You ain’t right!”

             If that means you disagree with part or all of what I said, all I can tell you is that the person who took the cell phone picture of the back of Zimmerman’s head said they took 3 pictures, that one, the flashlight, and the body.

             Don’t know which flashlight, but there was only one body, so it has to be of the dead or dying Trayvon Martin.

             And it must have been taken before Officer Smith arrived and handcuffed Zimmerman, ’cause he’s not gonna let people just wander around his crime scene when he doesn’t yet know what happened and who is or is not armed and might want to shoot him.

             Unless you’re implying that I actually DO want to see the corpse just to see the corpse because it’s a corpse, in which case you could not be more mistaken no matter how you tried.

             unitron

         • @unitron –

           Surely you know I was responding to this:

           onlyiamunitron Says:

           July 21, 2012 at 3:48 pm
           “On another note, my apologies for jacking up your posting name as “omnitron”.”

           Shhhh!

           That’s my secret crime fighter alter ego nobody’s supposed to know about!

           : – )

           unitron

           • When in doubt, blame it all on WordPress.

             Half the time the only place to get a reply button is the notification email, but it makes it look like the reply was to a post further up the chain.

             unitron

             • Meanwhile as my blood boils. 🙂

         • @unitron-

           Indeed. Since I don’t use wordpress, I don’t really know what you’re dealing with. But I did know that I wasn’t mocking you or implying you’re into publicizing dead bodies. I’m sure you already know that because we’ve shared opinions about this case at viewfromll2.

           In case you don’t know, my opinion on dead body viewing is that it shouldn’t be done. That’s why I suggested a sketch only. I can’t even get with people posting dead people in caskets, but it happens all the time. I half-heartedly understand their need to do so because they want to show the deceased had a beautiful ceremony and people loved the deceased.

           I DON’T want to see the tear in Trayvon Martin’s eyes on the pic presented to Tracey Martin. I can already see it clearly already and it is painful and disturbing. I only want to see confirmation of contradictory evidence of the body position. A sketch could serve that purpose.

           I’m 100% sure you know I meant no offense to you personally. When in doubt, scoll up!

       • @aussie –

         It would be awesome to get footage from the nearby property. I noticed also that Zimmerman made sure to mention in his Hannity interview that the “awnings” were only under people’s houses.

         Maybe Zimmerman doesn’t know there are awnings at the clubhouse? Maybe Zimmerman FORGOT that he didn’t describe Trayvon Martin standing under the awnings of other people’s houses in his statements to police nor in his re-enactment to account for suspicious behavior. Instead, Zimmerman describes a person who was looking AT houses while standing in the cut-through or walking behind houses (which obviously occurred much later than his first suspicion).

         Too late to throw in awnings. Too late to claim Barnes (or anybody else) gave Crump the info to taint DeeDee’s account.

         • Zimmerman telling on himself again. TM being under people’s awning…probably the awning of his own temporary residence.

         • GZ is not making the claim to Hannity that TM was seen by him under a front door awning in the RTL gated community. He simply described where it was dry.

           As for the “between the houses” comment it’s a telling detail that has its origins in his FIRST account to SIngleton. He’s in a hurry to get to Trayvon’s actions after he ran away from George in his car – he skips this even entirely in fact – and get to the “i was jumped” part, and so THIS is the first mention of “between the buildings” as a supposedly suspicious activity.

           GZ never saw TM take the shortcut into the complex, and he doesn’t claim to either. There are reasons to suspect he was tipped off after Osterman or possibly Frank Taaffe saw TM enter the complex, but no proof in public domain yet. But GZ’s vague descriptions of how and where he first observed TM and how TM gets ahead of him are certainly inconsistent and suspicious to me.

           Again, in his first telling to SIngleton, he leaves out the concept that TM passed him somehow by the clubhouse. This IMO is because GZ never saw TM by Frank Taaffe’s house at all. I think TM was already at the mailboxes when GZ left his house. He drove around until he found the kid, and then parked where he could spy on him while he dialed police. It’s possible he called while moving into position, but I’m pretty sure GZ marked the spot on the map where he stopped and was passed by TM – and that this spot is the first corner of TTL south of the mailboxes. All the sounds, statements, timing, inconsistencies etc fit this position and a U-t urn while any others are either impossible of fraught with contradictions from GZ and massive timing problems.

         • Yep, Willis, have to agree with that. He knows of the short-cut entry from hearsay. By the time he gets there it’s too late, the quarry is gone. At most he sees a shadow in the distance near the intersection. He drives up and down, as so well illustrated by tchoupi’s analysis, spots movement at the mailboxes, and that’s the first he really sees of him.

           This also accounts for the claim, in the walkthrough, that he was in such a hurry he was just going to call it in, and didn’t wait around to observe any more. Because he didn’t want to hassle of inventing more suspicious behaviour along RVC. PLUS of course wants to allay all suggestions he may have been following Trayvon.

           The description, heavy on upper-body clothing (right down to the BUTTON) and vague on lower-body, indicates not having seen a good full-length view of the person, just what you can see through a car window (passenger side) looking sideways.

     • Yes, still missing is the defendant’s Concealed weapons application (20 pages) from discovery

       IMO on his application he should have answered YES to question #9. In 2005 he was charged for a felony and had to go through pre-trial diversion so that the charges be dropped and would have had to submit a copy of the document issued by the court or probation office evidencing completion of probation or other court-imposed conditions. DID HE ANSWER YES AND DID HE DO THAT ?

       Remember when De La Rionda, at the 1st bond hearing, questioned his wife about his pre-trial diversion.? I think there was something behind his line of questioning

       Weapons application form:
       9) Have you been convicted, found guilty of, or had adjudication withheld on one or more misdemeanor crimes of violence? If yes, see #9 of APPLICATION INSTRUCTIONS:

       If you have been FOUND GUILTY OF, HAD ADJUDICATION OF GUILT WITHHELD FOR, OR HAD IMPOSITION OF SENTENCE SUSPENDED FOR ONE OR MORE MISDEMEANOR CRIMES OF VIOLENCE, you are NOT ELIGIBLE for a Florida concealed weapon license unless a period of three years has elapsed since probation or any other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled (or the record has been sealed and expunged). If you answer YES to this question, you must submit
       a copy of the document issued by the court or probation office evidencing completion of probation or other court-imposed conditions. Alternatively, you can submit a copy of the court document ordering that the record be sealed and expunged.

       • Show me the documents! And now we have a SECOND purchase after the bond hearing. Hopefully, that’ll produce new evidence, too.

     • The only thing that was going to be released regarding Zimmerman’s phone records was the search warrant. But, there were some things off the top of my head that were not released like Tracy Martin’s phone records.

       I plan to put some time into the blog tonight and will post the link of items that were to be released. It may be included in the Update section of the Court Proceedings and Evidence blog posting.

146. I don’t fault Zimmerman for not doing CPR. I do hold him to blame for not calling EMS. There was nothing to save, however. A hollow point bullet destroys what it hits internally.

     • I very much agree. Also, I don’t blame the witnesses for not wanting to go outside and were in fear when they first heard the altercation, but how is it that the couple of neighbors felt then it was OK to go outside AFTER the gunshot and before the cops got there? Can’t be just rubbernecking. Even if I knew GZ from the neighborhood, he was still walking around with a gun. They also did nothing to help. Was it because the black kid was on the ground, so the “threat” was gone? It’s very telling of the mindset of the witnesses that night as well.

       • Very insightful. It never occurred to me to think of that, but it is very curious–someone screaming for help and nobody goes to help, but they hear a gunshot and they can’t wait to get out there and start taking pictures and asking about ammunition sizes.

         Did any of the 911 callers specifically say anything about “send an ambulance”?

         unitron

         • I think some did say they thought they needed medical. It was asked of the callers if they needed police, fire, or medical…some of them said both police and medical because they thought someone just got shot, but didn’t know what had just happened.

         • Most rang before the shot, or during. One said wasn’t sure if they need police or emergency.

           A few went back inside and locked themselves in, just hearing John say he’s going to call 911. Like, it’s ok to look out while someone screams for help, suddenly dangerous to be there when the cops are (about to be) on the way. Weird.

           One 911 caller rang back and asked if the shooter had been caught, before venturing out.

           The others?
           They’d be assuming gunshot = someone dead. Body there, must be dead, no point looking.
           For a moment, the general assumption is, one dead, one long gone already. I mean, it was only one shot, not a machine gun.

           Then they hear “the gun’s on the ground, I did it in self defence”. Ah then it was deserved, even less point looking if the body may need first aid.

           So it’s okay to come outside. OK to find out, if they didn’t know already, that it’s a neighbour. OK to gossip among themselves and nicely mix up their memories (not fully sunk in yet) with the gossip. .

           John, confused and confusing John, he saw a LOT more than what he’s letting on. I think he’s getting closer to the truth as time wears on. So did the Teacher, who “don’t want to be a witness” – you don’t say that unless you ARE one. She didn’t go out to have her testimony poisoned.

       • The witness that came outside is probably another gun owner. He said he heard the noise and came out with his finger on the trigger, except in this case, his finger was one punch away from 9-1-1. I think that’s the difference. I think he was armed and ready to let LEO handle it. Unlike Zimmerman who wanted to handle it all on his own to become a hero.

       • In fairness, I would like to think if they knew it was a child involved, they would have gone outside to help…I hope.

         • For some reason, this reminds me that Zimmerman said he saw someone in their late teens on the NEN call, but at the first bond HE LIED during his fake apology and said he thought Trayvon Martin was a few years younger than him.

           • Yup…I’m waiting for that perjury charge. I think the exact quote — but I’m going off memory alone — is that he thought Trayvon was “just a little bit younger.”

             Either way, that’s lying under oath. Unless Zimmerman still thinks he’s 21.

             • Two open questions for anyone.
               One: Do you think the state put the interview of Hannity so they can show GZ violated his bond restrictions of indirect contact with the Martin/Fulton family? Two: Will a judge consider what he said on TV as a violation of bond?

             • Loree: IMHO, GZ did violate bond condtion- by haarassing TV’s parents while on SH. Not usre that state will press that though. Interesting that in all the “forums” that GZ & MOM provide, it’s a one way dialogue, with them pushing their agenda, and no room for feedback.

             • Agreed.
               Funny you should mention the feedback, because as soon as I read your comment, I realized that indeed feedback was given by the Martin/Fulton. IMO yes he did violate, I would think that the state should press the issue, because of GZ’s comments made them fired back a response to “It was all God’s plan.

         • @CSFC, at the bond hearing, his lawyer was also trying to make it seem like a “28-year-old” is a young man that can be easily scared and confused (by the system that is).

           By the way, in the SH interview, he claimed to have also called NEN a number of times on white, hispanic and and black kids. Is that true? I mean did he call on white and hispanic suspicious looking kids too? And I don’t mean calling about the 12-year-olds playing in the street.

           Also, I have yet to hear in any 911 dispatch call asking if the person in question is “White, black, hispanic or asian?” Are there no asians that live in Florida, or any that could possibly be a suspicious person? Hmmmm?

           • @So Interesting.
             Here is a pdf file download of all 911 calls from GZ sine 08/2004
             The first one he was FOLLOWING a vehicle with no car seats. Comp would be short for complainer (GZ) I mean Complainant. : ^ )

         • @So Interesting –

           Yeah, but the police said all his calls while at the community he shot Trayvon Martin were on black males. IIRC, the calls on others were prior to moving to the mixed community he lived in when he shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

           And hell, yeah, it is a sign of how outdated Sanford is on who lives in the U.S. as evident by the questions the police ask — white, black or hispanic.

           • I believe it was the previous 4 calls prior to 2/26/12. Serino put it in his report.
             And one other thing, I can not find the report he keeps stating of a woman alone with her baby in August 2012. I looked and there is only one referring to balck males in her house, but her report does not say I was alone with my baby and locked myself in the bedroom while they were downstairs. I think he embellished the story. Not sure though can’t find supporting data. There is no baby in the police reports. If anyone can find it please post.
             Thanks

         • I really dislike saying this, but do you think they saw not a child or a teenager, but just some black kid and decided it wasn’t worth it to get involved because the witnesses thought well he’s black so he must be guilty of something.

         • @Loree –

           When I first heard Zimmerman FOLLOWED a driver because a child wasn’t in a car seat, I thought overzealous. Now that I know he “loves his unborn kids”, I think he’s got deeper issues and he’s a nutcase. Making a baby was the ONE thing he couldn’t control or manipulate his wife into doing.

           • not to be gross or anything maybe he is shooting blanks. Or the women in his life know that bringing kids in with him will be a big mistake. Women know these things, at least the ones with half a brain.

         • @Loree –

           That’s exactly what was done. It is exactly what is presented daily to us in the U.S. If we could get past Fox’s fear-mongering, we probably could move on to more important things like addressing unemployment, violence and gangs and cheats and frauds and so on and so on… Painting black youth as the threat does not solve the major problems, but it practically ensures that the U.S. will end up like the Iraqis, the Iranians, the Syrians, etc., and the NRA will sell more guns to pop off perceived enemies.

           These bs attempts to turn brown, white, black, pink, red and yellow people against one another sells guns and is nothing more than a distraction (imo). We should be focusing on how to END violence, not perpetuate it by scaring everybody into thinking everybody NOT like us is an armed enemy threatening with their animallstic/superhuman strength. All that does is make our day-to-day lives seem dangerous in an attempt to convince us that we now must go out and buy guns to protect ourselves against the “other” people.

           ——–

           Rant warning

           ——–

           Headline: 9 people “shot up” in Chicago by black poor people participating in gangs.

           12 people killed at a movie theater, many others injured — shooter not involved in gangs.

           32 people dead in VA with the VA Tech shooting.

           What’s the difference? JOBS! I think they were all unemployed, have no opportunity and have nothing else to do with their energy. They are pissed and they want. But the jobs have been shipped overseas. They are idol and don’t understand why they can’t climb out of the crab barrell.

           Idol minds are the devil’s workshop! Idol, unemployed minds sit around all day watching Fox until they finally understand Murdoch’s propaganda that the reason they aren’t faring well economically is because they don’t own a gun and their taxes are too high for some rich dude to “give” them an opportunity to grow rich dude’s profits without growth for himself.

           Lord know they can’t profit from their connections/cronyism to start anything new or invent a marketable product.

           ———

           End rant warning
           .

         • I think CSFC meant “idle,” but American Idol IS on Fox, and it is basically an exploitative freak-show based on the audience’s schadenfreude at watching delusional people try to ‘sing’ their way out of the crab barrel. So metaphorically, it’s all the same 😉

         • @whonoze –

           LOL. Yes i did mean idle.

     • @gunnora –

       Thank you for the video way, way above.

       Yes, a mind that was NOT depraved probably would have NOT instructed others to NOT call 9-1-1 which would ultimately trigger ambulances.

147. Guys, White T-Shirt is definitely Trayvon.

     Look at the photos of the clothing in 2nd document dump, p. 201 to p.206. There is one that almost looks white in that awful photocopy. Trayvon’s T shirt that he had on under the hoodie.

     Witnesses could only see splotches of colour, or vague shapes. They were describing most upper-body clothing as “T-shirts” although nothing worn by either party could be called that. If the outer layer (eg hoodie) was rolled up they’d see a section of the under-shirt. None were in a position to see the entire body, they’d just see some colour in the above-waist area. A loose-fitting hoodie I imagine would roll up in a fight, enough to expose a large area of back — even more so if the front of the hoodie was being grabbed and pulled by someone.

     W3 is the one who saw a white t-shirt. She first saw it on someone with his back to her, apparently on top of someone else. After the shot she saw this person lying there like sleeping. This is the witness who remains unshaken in her certainty that she saw white, despite “none having been there” as closer examination showed. Light = white in the dark??

     Others were confused by who was who. One believes the body had black shoes and a reddish jacket. .W18, who probably saw more than anyone else (and also gave a statement to a private investigator for the Martins) saw GZ quite clearly walking up towards the T afterwards, yet thinks he had a short-sleeved shirt.

     I was once involved in an incident in which a man claimed he was threatened by “a big man in a red shirt”. Actually the threatening was being done by a medium man in a light grey shirt. I was standing close to him in a very red dress. Under stress, people get impressions, rather than really “see”, then they try to make sense of them afterwards.

     • Um, NOT. I’m certain the white tee-shirt guy is Zimmerman based on what I’ve seen. It will be proved. There’s no way to leap to I saw a white tee-shirt by seeing the piece sticking out around Trayvon Martin’s butt.

       Zimmerman’s shirt under his jacket was a light, almost white grey. His jacket was patterned in such a way that the darker portions would be unseen while the lighter portions (which to me look like a wife-beater tee).

       IIRC, the guy in the white-tee/hoodie was in handcuffs, right?

       • One in a hoodie was in handcuffs according to one witness. But then another said the body lying there had black shoes and a reddish jacket.

         Chameleons and shape-shifters, as well as teleporting and time warps. Strange paranormal happenings in Sanford that night.

         Really, look at p. 201 to 206, it is Trayvon’s shirt that looks white.

         • I looked. Still disagree. Zimmerman’s light shirt is very prominent in the police photo which is in color here: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/020.jpg

           Even in the dark with bad flash/bad lighting, the pattern of the colors and how they reflected light that night are apparent in the police photo taken on the scene by an officer here: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/evidencephotos/047.jpg

         • If you look at this pic…

           

           Look at the collar. That looks white to me. I don’t think there is enough information at this point to be definitive. I lean towards it being GZ but I think more information is needed.

           • You mean the collar that’s darker than the skin of his face?

             Did the lighting make his face “whiter than white”?

             (which may actually be technically possible–the old analog tv signal had a portion which was referred to as “blacker than black” because the voltage level was farther away from full brightness than black was)

             unitron

         • @princss6 –

           I looks white to me, too. What convinced me that George Zimmerman’s jacket is what look white/popped from either the front or from behind is how his jacket looked on the faxed cell-phone pic that the police took on the scene. He was sitting in the police car and there couldn’t have been much light and yet the dark/light pattern is easily distinguished.

           At first I thought it was the grey part that would look like. But that clearly showed that it was the red part that for some reason perhaps the material type) that reflected and popped.

           I haven’t done any graphics work in years, but I’d love to see someone apply a night-time light filter (or whatever graphics experts use these days) to the full body front and back pics of Zimmerman taken at the station.

           The program I used doesn’t do a great job of it, but I could still see the effect by just turning the color photo into a black/white.

         • Ok. Let me try this again…

           look like = look light!

         • @unitron – look at the top of his shirt inside of his collar…it looks white. I’ve always thought his shirt could pop like white in the dark. But again…I think the Witness would need clarify if possible at this date.

     • Also, Trayvon Martin’s colors of both his outer worn clothing (the nearly black long-sleeved hoodie) and his inner worn long-sleeved light gray sweatshirt had no pattern to confuse anyone. You either saw it against the night’s darkness or you didn’t. Zimmerman’s patterned jacket is the ONLY clothing worn by the struggle participants that could be confused by people and lead them into thinking they had seen a short-sleeved white anything including a white tee shirt.

       • Dunno where you’d get short-sleeve WHITE out of that. Short-sleeve red I can see, if the lower sleeves are twisted so the red shows less; it might then look like the red stops above the elbow. But red looks very dark in poor lighting.

         One of the police summaries in Dump 2 paraphrases John as saying “reddish or white” clothing on the person underneath.

         I give up. My eyesight is not up to this. Going back to maps and numbers.

         • Hi Aussie When creepy Hannity asked: “What did you mean G by your comment “The bad guys always get away”? Oh thank you Sean can someone direct me to the laws covering reporters lying and falsifying Statements and Evidence already verified and excepted into the discovery. Is there anything that can be done about this. They call themselves a news channel can we at least force them into Fox Opinions, these 2 simians sat across from each other Hannity thinking he got the scoop! Now yet another version of events by the “Soul-less” GZ Waa…I wasn’t following him waa…I just going in the same direction as he was, no he wasn’t running from me he was skipping in a quick manner! Excuse me while go stick my finger down my throat.

         • sdunn, it is a clean wholesome family TV network, didn’t you know?

           He has to paraphrase to say “bad guys….get away” because SHOCK HORROR you can’t say “assholes” on his network. Even a lot of the available tapes and some transcripts had it bleeped or *** out.

           You can do a fundraiser for a killer but you can’t say “asshole” in public.

           • Speaking of Shellie, has anyone heard about her recently. She has a court date on the 31st. O’Mara has stated he is not representing her, so who is?

             • Perhaps she and whoever is representing her both understand how smart it is to keep your big yap fully zipped.

               unitron

             • Crickets, crickets, crickets.

     • I thought the same. They wouldn’t see his black hoodie in the dark but would see a light undershirt. Question is to Zimmerman — what actions (E.g. pulling) caused Trayvon’s undershirt to become exposed?

       • Maybe he was pulling on TM’s shirt trying to get to the weapon he thought was in his (TM’s) waistband. Darn not there, guess GZ would have to go use his own gun then.

         • This is an interesting thought. He did assume Treyvon had a gun. George made sure we all knew this at the first bond hearing and during his NEN call. There’s no doubt he was frisking the body from the witness description, probably still frantically looking for a weapon.

           What would have made a better self defense claim than George shooting Treyvon with Treyvon’s own gun? The case would have been air tight.
           If and when George had Treyvon under his control, he could have been pulling and yanking on the hoodie to try to get at Treyvon’s weapon.
           I am in the camp that believe Treyvon’s shirt is the whitist thing I’ve seen on the site. I agree that when I saw it is the latest evidence dump, I thought it could reflect enough light in the right circumstances to appear white.
           Red is a very problematic color to appear white. In fact, red is used because it photographs black in graphic arts. I’m not saying it absolutely can’t, I’m just saying it’s far more likely not to appear white than Treyvon’s under-shirt.

           • Imagine what was going through TM’s mind if GZ’s hands were in fact groping around his waistband, either during the fight or if he had lunged for it at the initial confrontation (Get off, get off!!). More plausible explanation for the punch in the nose than GZ sitting on the phone with the cops.

       • I think NLME should do another experiment and post the results. 🙂

         Put on a sweatshirt (not a tee shirt) and put on another very large hoodie over it. Have your wife grab your clothes by the neck, then see what happens to your clothing.

         I completely understand if either you or your wife don’t want to. LOL

         • “Have your wife grab your clothes by the neck, then see what happens to your clothing.”

           Let me piss her off first. This should be accomplished fairly quickly. Haha

           But, on a “serious” note, I’m into reenactments — not like Civil War reenactments — and may give this a whirl (though my body type is significantly different than Trayvon’s).

     • You know what else I just noticed, W3 never mentioned seeing the person lying on the ground in her original statement (the recorded one) with FDLE on 3/19/12.

       http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-3-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

       She was asked point blank in the interview whether she the looked out the window again, but never affirms that she did.

       In evidence dump2, who was it that was interviewing her on 3/27/12? Is O’Steen SA? The names are blurring at this point! So by 3/27/12, it is mentioned in the report that “the subject with the white shirt was laying on the ground, like he was sleeping face down”. Zimmerman’s “hoodie” became a red coat, but only after she went outside while the police were on scene (and all the lighting associated with the scene).

       So far, light most of the other witness follow ups, it looks like they got her to admit that she went outside.

148. Why did GZ only now tell SH in the interview that he was yelling help to get the cops attention? “Help” versus “Help me”. It would be interesting to have an unredacted version of the 911 call with all the helps and gunshot on it and be able to analyze how many “help” versus “help me” screams there were (of course some of them were made before the call) and how they progress. When someone is just in fear and needs help from anyone, the instinct is to just yell “HELP!”. When they’re addressing someone, then it would be “Help me!” I only thought of this today when my 5 year old was throwing a tantrum in the front yard, and I picked him up to take him inside. Being overdramatic, he starts yelling “Help! Help! No, I wanna go!” I had to drop him, not wanting the neighbors to think I was beating him (Which of course I wasn’t!). Anyway, later in the day (tantrum was over in 2 minutes), he comes running to me screaming “Help me! Help me!” because his computer had frozen up and couldn’t play his game.

     If that assumption holds any water, and GZ were yelling “help me”. Who’s he talking to? Is it John or other witnesses he supposedly made eye contact with? To entertain a previously proposed wild conspiracy theory here, could it be his “partner” who might have gone running a different direction and when it was GZ who got in the fight, he was telling for him to come “help me”? In any case, the words “help me” imply a purpose as in “help me restrain this guy”. After all, he said this in his re-enactment. Whether he was really yelling for the cops/neighbors/partner, how much of it is truly pure mortal fear (to support his SYG claim)?

     • “Why did GZ only now tell SH in the interview that he was yelling help to get the cops attention?”

       Because he’s lying.

       Keeping with the K.I.S.S. principle 🙂

       • You got that right. He sticks to his main story, but adds, subtracts, and twists however he sees fit in the moment, not realizing how badly he’s going to get ripped a new asshole in court for it.

       • Really? He’s lying? OK case closed.

         • Zimmerman’s stories that we waited far too long to hear are exactly why I’m ready to have the fork put in me. I’m done!

     • Interesting comment. And if it were Trayvon screaming “Help me” and worse “I’m begging you” then it would appear to clearly indicate there WAS another person there… the accomplice some conjecture. Outlandish ?! Let’s not forget Osterman appears to have been at the local bank not 30 mins before the shooting yet has to date, as far as I can see, not mentioned this “coincidence”. And some anylysts hear another voice in GZ’s car whispering “Tell them…” during the NEN call while others analysing cctv from the clubhouse before the shooting see 2 cars parking and leaving the within seconds of each other as well as a car speeding away down TT Lane and out just after the shooting!

       Furthermore, for the community not to be sued by the Martins GZ has to be successful with SYG otherwise even if found not guilty they could be sued through the civil courts – remember OJ – and with a neighborhood watchman, armed, with priors of violent behaviour… it could be big bucks, so GZ has to continually stress he was not acting as watchman that night and neighbour witnesses might not be as “helpful” as they should!

       • I can’t see the comment you’re replying to since I’m using WordPress’ app but you just brought up some chilling points.

         Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting.

       • All that is possible but it does not fit the profile of this coward. He bragged about others taking the fall for him. I doubt seriously he would take the fall for anyone else.

         • Perhaps I explained myself badly. I didn’t mean GZ would take the fall for anyone, I too see him as far too much a coward to do that, but that certain neighbours, if they did see something or know more, and this is only mho, might not “remember” if say GZ was trying to detain Trayvon, because of the financial implications to themselves and the rest.

           I seem to recall reading somewhere that someone analysing the 911 call heard a voice crying “I don’t know ’em…”, which considering that the last burglary only one of three burglars was arrested and the rest “got away” makes sense and Trayvon could have been under some sort of questioning by GZ alone or with others and it all went terribly wrong but I haven’t heard it myself so it may just be something the guy thinks they hear.

           • comment by GBNG: “I seem to recall reading somewhere that someone analysing the 911 call heard a voice crying “I don’t know ’em…”, ”

             I haven’t heard that, but in witness 11’s (the one who called into 911 and can hear the gunshot) recorded statement to SPD http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-11-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
             She mentions that she hears a couple or more guys yelling (couldn’t tell how many). Maybe there was three exchanges of words. It was loud but not an extended conversation. Although she claims that she didn’t know what they were saying, at about 6:45 min into the recording, when asked again about the exchange, she said something like “What are are you doing” as if she was just making up what they were saying because she wasn’t sure but it matches with what DeeDee said. And she said it was beligerent. I think that confirms GZ confronted TM and absolutely refutes GZ’s calm and meek “no man, I don’t have a problem.”

             • Hmmm… This belligerent challenge reminds me of something. I’ve traveled through the south, if a racist is making this challenge to a black man, it doesn’t mean what it seems to mean. It doesn’t mean, for example, do you live around here, or what are you doing around here. What it means is “We don’t want your kind around here!”. Thus, there’s nothing you can do about answering such a statement, because you can’t change your skin color. Trayvon would have every reason in the world to take this challenge that way.
               He didn’t know GZ and GZ refused to identify himself, exactly what a racist, intending to harm a black person, would do.

               I, sincerely doubt that Trayvon could find any other reason for the strange behavior of this person following him that night. GZ may not have been racist, but he never gave any thought to the fact that blacks are followed and harmed by racists and still have to be on guard against them. But, in any event, NW lessons told him that his actions could be misinterpreted with disastrous results. It is only his own senseless pig-headdedness that creates this total disaster. If that is the case, then he needs to be held to seriously account for that!

       • I think the lawsuit against Zimmerman is a separate issue. The HOA can be sued today if the Martin family felt like it. They already have grounds to do so.

         • I didn’t know that. I thought I read in several legal analysis that if GZ was not acting as an NW that night it would be his personal responsibility and furthermore that if SYG was successful then no criminal or civil claims could be brought whatsoever.

           • “if GZ was not acting as an NW that night it would be his personal responsibility…”
             NW is not a security job, police duty or the army. They were also not organized to the point that different people were scheduled to “patrol”, so there’s no on duty or off duty. It’s just whenever you see something. When you live in the neighborhood, as soon as you call police or you call your “watch captain”, you’re participating in the watch. As soon as GZ called police, his NW “duties” kicked in. It doesn’t matter if he was about to go grocery shopping or was walking his dog. All this of course, IMHO.

         • @gbng and so interesting –

           The HOA witness gave a statement discussing how she felt Zimmerman would be confrontational while on his neighborhood watch. She apparently is of the mindset that this is ok behavior.

           Zimmerman’s existence was made known the newly elected HOA head because residents had contacted him after Zimmerman took it upon himself to stop them and get signatures or sign-up or something, IIRC. The HOA’s newsletters listed Zimmerman as the NW contact. The police recognized Zimmerman as NW guy.

           Residential witnesses said they had seen Zimmerman on patrol — this is against NW rules nationwide! Other witnesses (not noted in HOA minutes perhaps) had complained about this overzealouse/offensive guy acting as NW watch captain.

           The false story that SYG must be beat or Zimmerman’s murder2 charge must be beat in order to protect the homeowners of the community is nothing more than a trickery type false bullet-point to scare and intimidate the homeowners that we will end up paying a lot of money if Zimmerman is convicted. It doesn’t work that way unless the idiot HOA hasn’t paid their insurance to protect them against such an event.

           SYG and murder2 charges are against an individual — not an HOA.

           In addition, having a renter make decisions in a community supposedly governed by folks with a stake in the community (owners) versus non-stakeholders (renters) is out of the norm.

           And… no background check was done by the HOA on Zimmerman.

           Since it’s near an elementary school, at a minimum, a criminal background check could have been done. In order to serve in any capacity on a lot of HOA boards or act in any official capacity, a background check is needed.

           Credit background checks may have flagged Zimmerman, too, but the criminal background check would have definitely canned him to the HOA. Unfortunately, businesses aren’t all that concerned about criminality and are more concerned with statistics on whether or not money, money, money can be collected.

           Perverted capitalism!

           • The HOA would want NW, since that could increase property values/attractiveness. People on HOA boards aren’t always aware or versed in when a background check should be done and may dismiss it out-of-hand, in favor of more immediate/desirable concerns.

             As far as liability, I sure hope they’ve paid their insurance. Any lawyer worth his salt will be able to prove they knew and did nothing at all, to bring GZ’s activities within the NW rules. There’s no indication that they even bothered to find out what NW was all about, but the SPD’s community officer will have to enlighten us on how he goes about informing the community of NW, what it entails and what it does not.

             HOA, probably wants to believe that since it’s an SPD sponsored and managed program, they have no responsibilities with it. Of course, that’s not true! They should have known what they were signing on for, since it involved everyone who lived there. Otherwise, how could they know it was or was not being properly managed/operated?

             The HOA is responsible therefore, but they may be “responsible with recourse” to the SPD, who may have failed to manage the program properly.
             The SPD, for sure, should not have just taken the word of the NW that it was not engaging in patrols, but they should have conducted some investigation to ensure that the rules were being followed. After all, I’m sure they are aware that the NSA advises that NW has a potentially dangerous side, that the rules are designed to prevent.

             So, to make a long story short: They’re all “in the soup” as it were. SPD and HOA. And that remains so, even if SYG or self defense is found. Because it can be claimed that mismanaged NW was the cause of the tragic sequence of events.

149. “Zimmerman says O’Mara knew about $37,000 in donations received.”

     “O’Mara told The Herald that he does not recall the conversation Zimmerman referred to and would not risk his law license lying to the court.”

     Hmmm, so either Zimmerman or O’Mara are lying. I wonder which one it is ;-).

150. I had not seen this footage before: a tv news helicopter over the crime scene shot aerial footage of the area.

     

     This is a youtube filmed of a screen video and the quality is worthless. But a real copy might show the Ridgeline or Osterman’s vehicle… does anyone know what the Ostrerman-lookalike guy is driving at the ATM bank video?

     • Here is a shot of Ostrerman-lookalike guyleaving ATM bank

       View post on imgur.com

       • What does it mean?

       • Awesome – thank you!

151. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/george-zimmerman-interview_n_1688722.html?utm_hp_ref=trayvon-martin

     Should be shown to GZ since he LOVES to talk so much. Since he’s got nothing to hide, and likes to post YT vids… Why not answer OUR questions, Georgie Porgie ate too much pudding and pie?

     • You’d think O’Mara is smart enough to know that GZ would botch up any contact with the media, so: 1) is he conceding and going along with it so he can at least keep some sort of eye on GZ because he knows his client will go rogue like he did before, or 2) it’s part of his defense strategy, i.e., see? my client’s clearly delusional/crazy, he’s insane your honor. Kidding aside, if O’Mara lets him keep in email contact with people, even his known supporters, he’ll just leave a trail for the prosecution to sniff. I’m surprised no one has commented on his mention in the SH interview of the support he got from fellow inmates. He was in the rec room alone when a bunch of guys flashed him a sign of support. He grinned when saying this. Great, he has support from a bunch of convicts.

       • O’Mara’s definitely not going the insanity defense route because it would never, never, never work here. O’Mara really can’t do much with GZ. It’s kind of like the saying the customer is always right. GZ calls the shots. O’Mara’s just the mouth piece, but GZ is too much of a control freak to ever be satisfied with that.

         Yeah. Be proud, George. You have the support of other criminals. LOL.

         He LOVES to talk. It fucked him from moment one, and it’ll keep on fucking him.

         • I’d like to hear from one inmate that showed him support. Just one. I’m guessing that was another lie.

       • I find it interesting, that all if not most of those on the twitter are asking the very same questions, that have been posted here.
         @So Interesting, I was under the impression Zimmerman was in a single room at the jail, he never was allowed to leave unescorted. In my work in Prisons, I do not think Zimmerman would get much support. The signs may have been more of a threat or warning. I am in Southern California, the Black and Hispanic prisons gangs are at war.

         • John, he said he was alone in the rec room, they flashed him the sign of support through the window (what that was I don’t know, a pumped up fist? Sorry, I’m not up on the latest gangster body language). I get the impression it was just one incident. I’m not surprised he might get support from SOME (not all) of them. It was just a sign, not a declaration to the general prison population that would have gotten them whooped for it. Anyway, If it was a lie, it’s a really stupid one to make on national TV.

         • On second thought John, you may be right about the sign being a threat or warning but GZ not being streetwise according to MO misinterpreted it or decides to lie and say it was support. Either way, still stupid…

         • @So Interesting –

           I learned most, if not all, of my street smarts regarding evidence collection from crooked cops.

           That’s my only (obviously UNFOUNDED) basis for suspecting drugs, racketeering and thefts after Zimmerman moved into the community.

       • Convicts who had yet to hear from W9, that is. People who are incarcerated tend to view children whom they are unable to protect as a sensitive subject. Allegations of sexual misconduct on George’s part are likely to be judged by convicted criminals in a harsh light. W9 claims GZ was 18, and thus not a minor when she was 16 and the behavior was still going on after ten years.

         George did not deny the alleged sexual misconduct in his interview with Hannity. I think his “supporters” in jail, and later his fellow inmates in prison might make not of that fact. They may be incarcerated but they are not dumb when it comes to legal matters like tacit admissions of guilt.

         • I want Zimmerman convicted and imprisoned for a long, long time but I don’t want him in general population after what’s already been brought to light. That would be, by definition, torture and I stand firmly with United Nations against torture. 🙂

         • It’s a catch-22. Administrative Segregation is torture as well.

         • He’s going to general population when he’s convicted. I can’t see the state putting him in solitary confinement at the extra expense. Zimmerman’s already said the inmates like him, so he apparently has no worries. LOL

           He certainly won’t be a danger to the other inmates since presumably the other inmates are grown men and not some skinny teen.

152. if he knew the cops were on their way, why didn’t he yell this at trayvon if he was getting beaten. Why didn’t he yell that he had called the cops, they will be here any second, to try and scare his attacker off. I mean he said he knew the police were in the area and was yelling to try and guide them to his direction (another addition to his story)…why not yell that at your attacker.

     I am not in the States, did the media make any noise about Zimmerman’s glee at being the only witness to the gun shot, and the subsequent giggle. I would have punched him in the throat.

     • As to your first part…EXACTLY. GZ says TM knew he was on the phone with police AND John says he’s going to call 911… Uh, what kind of criminal thug doesn’t run to avoid getting caught? Also, TM ran in the first place…people who run and get away, DON’T come back.

       I really haven’t heard anything in the media about his little smirk and giggle, but right, totally a throat punch moment. Who does that??? And what was with the smirk and giggle about how many times he’d been punched?

       • I thought I was going to go crazy when he did that, He deserved a throat, body, face, groin punches after that freakin giggle.
         I think even those people who were on the fence with him decided that he is not believable. I also think that his supporters, even though they are a little out there, couldn’t believe his behavior on TV, and didn’t respond well to it. He only rec’d about 1500 in donations that night.

         • Reply was for Jo
           Sorry : ^ ))

         • It sounds like he deserved to get punched in the nose and have his banged on the concrete….jus sayin’

           • Agreed.

     • I believe Trayvon knew the cops were coming because John the witness stepped out and said he was going to call the cops. Trayvon would of been able to tell them this guy followed me in his car and chased me, I had to defend myself against this nutjob.

       • …And that would have left Georgie Pooh in a terrible fix, with only his “he looked suspicious so I tried to grab and hold him”, as a defense for his actions. After the police search showed that GZ was also armed, while following a suspect on NW, they’d have had to take some quick CYA action, meaning that GZ loses his neighborhood watch command. Of course, later he gets sued as well. And that’s if he hasn’t drawn his gun. If he did that, then it’s assault with a deadly weapon and he’s facing time in jail.

         • That’s my take, too.

           • This is going to be a bit long, as I’m going to focus on who had the right to do what.

             A) First, let’s say that TM had a gun in his possession.

             B) Okay, what does that give GZ the right to do? Absolutely nothing after he calls the police! It does not give him the right to follow or confront TM.

             C) But, lets say he follows and confronts an armed TM. Who is going to forget they are armed, when they decide to follow a person who is also armed?

             D) Who is going to confront an armed person, that they also believe is a criminally intended person, without drawing their own weapon first?

             E) Now we know that TM was not armed, but GZ says he thought that he was.
             Quite obviously, if GZ had drawn his weapon when he confronted TM. TM would have asked a very different question than “Why are you following me for?”, or perhaps made a statement about the gun pointed at him.
             But he doesn’t, instead he asks why he’s being followed.

             Now, let’s look at this legally. When TM asks why he’s being followed, he is legally entitled to an answer! When GZ replies with a question “what are you doing here?” He is confronting TM, and not only does he have no right to confront TM, he has no right to ask any questions of him. Legally, he has no right to be anywhere near TM, if his only reason for proximity is his suspicions about him. His only right at that point is to identify himself, because any failure to do so, makes him a criminal! A criminal because, he has engaged in actions that are prohibited, even for police! A person has a right to believe they are in danger, when a person unknown to them, causes them to fear for their safety, without explanation therefore.

             So, GZ tries to say that he did not confront TM, but the facts say otherwise!
             Is issuance of a challenge, he was not entitled to issue, when asked to identify himself, after causing TM to fear for his safety, is a crime!

             F) Now, it is reasonable at this point, after having issued a challenge to a person he believed was armed, to believe that GZ would have felt he had cause to draw his weapon! Although he says otherwise, we can’t possibly believe that it’s reasonable, that he would confront a person he believed, was armed and possibly dangerous, and issue a challenge to them, without being ready to defend himself.

             G) It is at this point, where he’s holding TM at gunpoint, that he searches and discovers that the bulge is merely iced tea.

             Now this discovery creates two conditions: One, it’s anti climax as he realize that TM is no danger at all, thus he momentarily lowers his own gun, perhaps even holsters it. Two, he realizes now that he has pulled his weapon on an unarmed teen and he knows that is unlawful and carries severe penalties.

             H) While out from under immediate threat, TM will try to recover his dropped phone and iced tea, thus it will take him several seconds before he can flee.

             During this period of time, GZ realizes that he is now in very serious trouble, and has to quickly formulate a plan to deal with it. As a law student, versed in gun law, he knows that he has committed a felony and that he can be sued for large damages, if TM lives to tell about it. The only thing GZ now has going for him is some kind of SYG defense, but that requires him to kill TM.

             Seeing no other way out, he decides that this is what he has to do…
             TM is still picking up his belongings when GZ makes up his mind and grabs TM again and shoots him.

             Okay, so some of this may have happened sooner or later in the story, but it does seem that this is what happened. GZ found himself in a very difficult place, where the only way out, with himself and his reputation intact, was to shoot to kill.

             How he gets bloodied is anyone’s guess, perhaps Osterman, all in black and not seen wandering around and watching, closes in and GZ says I was standing my ground. Osterman pulls a sharp object from his pocket and administers the wounds as GZ walks towards the T in the darkness.

             Perhaps these cuts were there, GZ having banged his head somewhere else, and now he merely restarts the bleeding by removing the scabs. Who knows? Because otherwise, we have no evidence, other than GZ’s own statements, that any fight happened. Witnesses say the two were in close proximity to each other, but that means nothing at all. It does not mean that a fight of any kind was seen.

             So, no one saw the shooting, but no one saw a fight either!

             GZ had the means, motive and opportunity to commit a felony, that only TM could see and testify about. And that would be motive sufficient for him to commit murder to cover it up.

         • “.. meaning that GZ loses his neighborhood watch command.”

           Which would have been the end of the neighborhood watch program, since GZ appears to have been the only person in it.

           • The whole community would know of his shame, perhaps even several communities over. The NW signs would probably have to come down, or maybe they could hand things over to Taaffe?

         • @Lonnie –

           I believe that the entire point of Zimmerman saying in his Hannity interview that he didn’t feel threatened or intimidated by Trayvon Martin’s “hands in his pocket” was to refute what you’ve said above. Zimmerman and O’Mara don’t seem to *get that saying Zimmerman didn’t feel intimidated or threatened points to Zimmerman’s pursuit of Trayvon Martin into a whole new ego/cowboy territory.

           You didn’t feel threatened, but you felt the “suspect” was just f’ing with you and trying to intimidate you, huh? Well I’ve got a gun and I’ll show your arse what a real packer does to you “punks”. I’ve been waiting to use my gun on one of you “punks” anyway.

           • I get the dichotomy. Also how he feels so fortunate that nobody saw him take the shot, that he’s able to laugh about it. That only becomes hysterical if he’s in the wrong and knows/thinks, he’s getting away because of a fortunate quirk.

             What do I think? I think someone actually saw him take the shot, but is keeping quite about it. It’s human nature to be curious and we know that “curiosity killed the cat”. This case should not be any different. If there was something to be seen, and enough notice given to see it, then it was seen.
             But, for some strange reason, isn’t being told. Of course, that officer trying to put words in the mouth of a witness, is a pretty good clue as to why we wouldn’t be told what was seen by someone… yet!

             The SP probably already has GZ fitted for a gurney ride, but the much and often battered FBI probably wants a piece of this too, so they’ve got to carefully plan how to carve up the GZ carcass. Not to mention that Osterman will make a pretty good prize himself, along with a passel of SPD fools.

             State and federal LEO’s are taking such a beating, they need something to put a feather back in their caps, this one would make a good start.

         • @ Lonnie: You’re assuming DeeDee is telling the truth. She basically volunteers to tell de la Rionda anything he wants to hear, and he awkwardly and not quite succesfully tries to get her to understand that she should not perjure herself. I do think she’s probably telling the truth about ‘why are you following me’ but overall she is not a reliable witness.

           • who takes a gun food shopping? And does anyone know whether Fla concealed carry rules required GZ to disclose to SPD that he was armed during his phone calls that night while reporting the incident and asking police to meet him?

             • Well, he did admit to following TM, and we know that he was armed at the time. He is trying to tell us that TM rushed at him, while he was returning to his truck. Then he tries to explain how he was punched in the face, fell to the ground right there by the T, and TM pounced down and straddle him, bashing his head vigorously on the concrete.

               He then says he shimmied away from the concrete (40.5 feet of shimmying with Travyon on top?), he drew his gun and fired.

               I don’t know why in the reenactment video he’s standing there swatting at flies and portraying some kind of reeling and stumbling motions, when he can more easily explain, by shimmying 40.5 feet with TM on top, what happened next and why so far from the T. Guess GZ never heard of Ocams Razor, eh?

           • I think she became unreliable later. I think that earlier she could only tell what she knew, without knowing what had happened, she would not have known how to embellish anything.

         • @whonoze –

           The transcripts of DeeDee’s statement are incorrect. She does not volunteer to just say whatever they want.

           For example, where people are attributing the statement “you want that too” to DeeDee, what she actually said is “he walked up to ’em”.

           Also, “you could say that” means nothing more than “you’ve paraphrased what I meant correctly”.

           “Right by his da’s house” was misheard by the interviewer as “Right by his ass”.

           I didn’t hear anything in DeeDee’s statement that seemed dishonest

           • Thanks for clearing that up, because there’s been so much made of Dee Dee’s credibility, I think that these fact deserve special treatment and to be posted en bloc in their own document.

             Perhaps NLME can be convinced this is so?

             Thanks again!

             • I can’t see what you’re replying too — thank you WordPress app — but I’ll check it out tomorrow!

             • Thanks. It concerns the misinfo that is circulating about what Dee Dee said, that would ruin her credibility as a witness, when what she actually said does nothing of the sort.

               The various pieces of misinfo that are in circulation, when the documents clearly knock down such, need to have particular attention paid to them when they are found. Perhaps they should even have their own special page where they can be collected and displayed next to the evidence that refutes them or at least links to it.

         • @Lonnie –

           I wrote that on memory about what I had posted before to another blog which I’m pretty sure was viewfromll2. I couldn’t find it again to make sure it was 100% accurate because I think it may have gotten deleted when Susan had to take serious measures to get rid of a pretty racist-sounding regular over there who was disrupting her blog. What I do know is that I listened and listened and listened to the DeeDee interview until I could make out what she said and what is propagated in the tratnscripts by a lot of analyzers is NOT what was said in the recorded statement.

           I prefer to “see it for myself”, “hear it for myself”. Analysis is something I like to review as well, but my preference is to see raw data.

           If I can find my notes on it, I’ll repost it verbatum. But I think I only posted it at viewfromLL2, so I may have to listen again if I don’t have notes.

       • @Lonnie –

         When this is all over, I really do hope you write the book about it. Your way with words is so descriptive and so accurate and so thoughtful.

         • Thank you, we’ll see… Right now I see too many perspectives.

     • re: “did the media make any noise about Zimmerman’s glee at being the only witness to the gun shot, and the subsequent giggle.” Mainstream media in general I think have to refrain from commenting specifically about stuff like that, as it’s subjective, unless they bring in an “expert”. The link below with the “body language expert” didn’t talk about that part of the interview but she did discuss his apology. I should warn you however that this “expert” is very annoying to watch. http://www.hlntv.com/video/2012/07/19/george-zimmerman-body-language

       • Very annoying expert.

         And never mentions THIS look, which GZ was showing flashes of just about every second question he answered (between the smirking ones).
         http://www.metro.co.uk/news/896826-george-zimmerman-apologises-for-shooting-dead-trayvon-martin
         It’s a mixture of “ouch got caught there” sucking the teeth, squeezing the mouth shut to stop anything coming out, and an attempted smile to cover it up. Usually seen on people when they’ve been caught out lying about something embarrassing. Bill Clinton had the same look when denying “sex with that woman”. Same on Anthony Weiner caught “sexting”
         http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/11/us-usa-politics-weiner-idUSTRE75A0FF20110611

         • Too funny.

       • I wouldn’t mind seeing a link to the entire program I and program II. Apparently, what I’ve seen must be snippets.

         I specifically want a look at the “giggle” part which I haven’t personally seen, but have seen comments about it.

         I don’t normally even look at body language experts anyway, but I have to agree she was a bit annoying. So was the host. They both seem like drama queens, imo.

         It was, however, interesting that she said Zimmerman did not really want to apologize to the Martins and his statement about reflection seemed rehearsed.

         What I noticed on my own was that Zimmerman made the reflection question all about himself. His inconveniences trump all. He hopes that this tragedy is the most difficult thing he’ll ever have to go through, blah, blah. He hasn’t had time to reflect he says except when he was in jail. Yet, while in jail, he spent most of his time making phone calls directing people to hide money, bragging about the publicity he expects, wheeling and dealing a free bond with the hopes that only his attorney would monitor, making hoodie jokes, making sure money was on his jailhouse phone account, trying to convince people to wear bullet-proof vests and dividing up his family and wife.

         As the body language expert said, Zimmerman didn’t WANT to reflect. I also wish she’d said something about the eye-brow raise when he said “because of my actions it’s polarized and divided America”.

         • I didn’t see part 2 and have refused to watch it online. Is the interview worthwhile?

           The laughing I saw was in part 1.

         • @NLME

           Part 2 was nothing important, IMO. It wasn’t additional interview with Zimmerman, but it was a reaction from the Martin’s (the what God do you worship cuz we must not worship the same one), a short appearance from Parks (family lawyer), and then some discussion about the interview with analysts on how they think it helps GZ.

         • Found it. It’s at about 17:35.

           http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-lied-sean-hannity-fox-news-interview-shaka-griffith-blog

           Didn’t know if NLME wanted the video here, so to view, just remove the [dot] part.

           • It’s to global grind — I’m cool with that.

         • @nlme –

           Good to know. I’ve seen so many vids on this matter, I thought I was obscuring a post/link to Fox. Thank you for fixing.

       • Unrelated to body language but has anybody noted that Hannity said Zimmerman mentioned that Trayvon ran only once when in fact GZ said it twice during the call?

         “Shit — he’s running.”

         “He ran.”

         I won’t even address the ludicrous skipping comment during the interview.

         The weird ass laughing goes back to my point a few weeks ago when listening to the tapes.

         Paraphrasing…

         Investigator: “Are you racist?”

         Zimmerman: [Laughs nervously] “Not at all.”

         • I think that “he ran” was uttered in retrospect and referred back to the single instance of running he announced to the dispatcher.

           His voice when he said that seemed the oddest mixture of frustration and disappointment, but that could just the way it sounds to me, my time travel mind reading cap is in the shop.

           If he’d regained a visual on Trayvon in between those two utterances, I think we’d hear a distinct change in his tone of voice when it happened.

           unitron

         • @unitron

           I agree with what you’re saying. The way he said “he ran” led me to believe TM was either out of sight *or* was all the way down the path already. The way he said it sounded like frustration, disappointment, and some sort of confirmation (of TM being up to no good) all at the same time. His voice got more relaxed, but towards the end of that call, and what I suspect is the reason he wouldn’t meet police, GZ sounded distracted again as if he had heard or seen TM.

           • If I were going to assume anything about his change to “could you have them call me when they get here?”, it wouldn’t be that he had regained a visual on Martin, but that he didn’t want to be tied down waiting at a specific location, which, if I assumed that, would cause me to wonder if perhaps he didn’t intend to keep looking around some more.

             unitron

           • “His voice got more relaxed, but towards the end of that call, and what I suspect is the reason he wouldn’t meet police, GZ sounded distracted again as if he had heard or seen TM.”

             I was going to mention this a few months ago — after I posted map 2 — but didn’t want to be accused of reaching too far.

         • @unitron

           I get what you are saying, and I do believe he didn’t want to be tied down to a specific location in order to look for TM. BUT. It’s not just based on the words; it was his change of voice. His voice calmed after TM ran then when he said he’d meet the officer(s) at his truck, he almost had the sound of defeat, but mid this plan of going back to the truck, you can hear his voice change back to the distraction/excitement that was heard when describing TM’s movements. It’s the words + the change in tone that leads me to believe there was some indication to him TM was still in the area. A sound, shadow, movement, etc. That’s my assumption and I’m sticking to it. 🙂

         • @NLME

           “I was going to mention this a few months ago — after I posted map 2 — but didn’t want to be accused of reaching too far.”

           I call it like I see it. And I’ve never minded taking a little heat for it.

           • Me too!

             But, within the blog posting, my objective isn’t/wasn’t to reach too far (until more is known).

         • Ah, I understand where you’re coming from on that.

           Unlikely we’ll ever know what exactly caused the change in his voice, or what made him agree to meet police one moment then change his mind the next.

           I’ll try to keep unsubstantiated speculation to a minimum, lol.

     • He might have but if you are Trayvon, in Sanford…the cops on the way is probably not going to be comforting or have you thinking they are going to be there to assist you. In all honestly, Trayvon was probably doomed as soon as GZ called 911 on him. If you think the cops would not have treated Trayvon as a suspect or criminal upon coming upon the confrontation or wrestling, well…then the disparity in our criminal justice system is not understood.

       If Trayvon did not comply without trying to get his side of the story out, he ran the risk of just as much being harmed by the police as just having that nut GZ on him alone. IMO, the best case scenario would have left Trayvon fighting juvie charges right now instead of gone forever. The police would have believed GZ’s word if Trayvon had lived and there still would have been a tremendous fight for them to believe Trayvon. Of course, I would rather see him fighting juvie charges now but I’m just saying…he was not going to walk away unscathed.

       Neighborhood watch guy against black kid in a hoodie in Sanford. We have seen EVEN with Trayvon’s dead body and a story that makes no damn sense, how SPD let GZ go!

153. and why didn’t he ever return to his home. He said (sorry i can’t remember where i saw it) that when he left his house that Sunday night it was for the last time, he never returned. Why didn’t he go home..ever?

     • waaaahhh wwaaahhh I was driven out of my home by this ordeal waahh

       that is why.

       Never mind Trayvon never again returned home.

       ========
       Sequence of events:
       MO and SZ took him change of clothes and waited until he was released. Very likely MO already told SZ they should go to his place so she had an overnight bag packed for herself, too.

       They go to MO’s place. Long hard night, shock, a lot to talk about. Next day on not enough sleep, has to go to doctor, has to go to work and tell them. Has to rehearse the walkthrough.

       Now he’s not working. Possibly already behind with the rent. Certainly will be, soon. Doesn’t want to have neighbours asking about it every day. Media still hanging about all the time, too.

       So they go back, pack up everything, store it somewhere (MO’s garage??) and stay there a while. Then he decides to leave the State, maybe go to some relatives, as no money for rent.

       Then he makes the website and the money starts rolling in. He comes back to sweet talk the prosecution into forgetting about it, but just by then they have the warrant ready, so he’s trapped.

       =========
       He said somewhere he encouraged Shellie to finish her education. She only had 4 weeks to go. DID SHE? the 4-6 weeks at MO’s was enough for this.

       • Good crybaby story.
         But he lied about that was the last night he was ever home. Neighbors were interviewed the next day or a the day after, saying they saw him talking to the police in his driveway. They also mentioned those huge bandaids on his head. I think GZ thinks we do not read newpapers. If I find the article I will post it.

         • Indeed. I remember reading about that, too. It would be extremely weird to pack up and move out before all the media attention had started, imo. Is that what normal people would do?

           • I think the media didn’t pick up until 2 weeks after 2/26/12. He knew things before the shit hit the fan. And when they did, his own neighbors are the ones who ask him to leave. I don’t know if that is true, but maybe the HOA lady can speak more to that.

           • P-p-p-paranoia

         • Yeah,the police went to his place for the start of the reenactment. That had to start there, as that’s where he said he left from, to go to Target, after “mentoring”, which is what caused him to see Trayvon outside of Taaffe’s place.

           This was next day, and he’d spent the night at MO’s place, so he would have driven there for the purpose. This doesn’t mean he ever again actually stayed the night there.

           Give him some credit for a few truths, even if it’s awful hard for us to pick them out. Must be very wearing to have to lie ALL the time, so some truth must accidentally slip in every now and then.

           Still, the point of saying that was to make people feel sorry for him. Make HIS ORDEAL look even worse. Never forget he is the innocent martyr here.

         • Heavy planning and scheming going on overnight that first night and morning. The next day he went to the doctor after first reporting to work. He had to tell some stories at work, which could have made him very nervous given all the stories swirling around in his head. Then he went to the doc to get clearance to go back to work, but never went back to work after the first morning. They never saw him again. He must have been reeling, realizing he was going to have to keep his stor(ies) straight with the entire neighborhood, and with all the people at work.
           It looks like George fled.

     • He didn’t return home because he was busy being coached by Osterman and his dad on what to say at the walk-thru. Yes he was there in the driveway the next day -there is video of him talking about his injuries to the police shot after the walk thru. Had he stayed home, people might have asked him a lot of questions and he didn’t seem to want that – also. obviously he shot a fellow resident of the community who was unarmed, a minor and just walking home from the store. I doubt he felt he was going to get much sympathy from his neighbors.

       • All in all it made good sense for him to stay with supportive friends at least until the round of police interviews was over. Especially if Shellie did try to go back to finish her studies, so he’d be alone by himself otherwise.

         Then in a few days, obvious he’d going to have trouble paying the rent, being out of work because of this ordeal an’ all. And then the media attention starts up.

         So I think not going back to live there was a good decision, a sensible one. I’ve nothing against that. Anyone else might have done the same.

         Just horrid the way he says it, as if this ordeal forced him out of home, that he had NOTHING TO DO WITH. Just one more piece of martyrdom he had to suffer.

         • The supportive angle could make sense. But his supportive friends didn’t live that far away. They could visit.

           Also, I thought one of the parents was paying the rent. Is that just rumor? If not, why did they owe so much money to Zimmerman’s mom?

       • I guess my question is what do other shooters of unarmed people do? The only time I’ve ever been *accused of a crime, I went home and said let the chips fall where they may. I had not committed a crime, so I didn’t feel the need to hide.

         I’m normal (I think), so why would Zimmerman be in hiding from day one of the shooting? That part is weird to me. Does anybody collect info/statistics about stuff like that?

         • yes unless the crime was committed in your home and you are traumatised you would want to go back to they comfort of your home, your safe place. I think Shellie was studying from home. I can understand when things got crazy but not immediately.

           I thought George was suppose to be traumatised, but he went to work, told stories of what happened but i never saw anyone describe where he even showed regret or sadness that he killed someone. At that time he didn’t know trayvon was a good kid but he had to know tray wasn’t committing any crimes at that time or that he wasn’t armed. From what witnesses have said he doesn’t seem to concerned about the “taking of a life” part, nor does anyone describe him talking of how scared he was…he seems so detatched even the moring after. Like he was talking about something he saw on tv.

           • I guarantee I’m not going to work the day after a supposed ass beating. And, I’m definitely seeking counseling instead of work the day after I murdered someone even if I thought it was justified.

             I think this statement speaks for the majority but could be wrong.

         • Yes. The work thing is just as strange. I think he went there to show off his butterfly bandages myself. Get some more witnesses maybe? Was it pay day? Did his phones all stop working?

           • “Get some more witnesses maybe?”

             Wait until Zimmerman’s text messages/emails come out. It’s going to be a pity party. I can only hope his accomplice(s) and he communicated by cellphone before the shooting.

         • sounds like he was proud of his heroism and couldn’t wait to share. I just don’t get it, traumatised people dont go into details and act it out second by gruesome second. All without word of regret or sadness or a thought for the dead yound man. It’s almost like he was building up to this, being groomed, not deliberately to kill someone, but spending time with someone you admire because of his job and his skills with a gun, learning from him, George probably wanted to make MO proud.

         • I just keep thinking it weird how he told one of his coworkers that TM MUGGED him. Isn’t a mugging where someone attacks you to take something off your person such as a wallet, a purse, a piece of jewelry, etc?

         • @jo –

           “proud”

           Sums it nicely.

     • Consciousness of guilt

154. @willisnewton –

     “And don’t get me stated on Frank ‘according to George’ Taaffe, who claims he parked facing the clubhouse, ”

     Speaking of Taaffe, have you seen this? One of Zimmerman’s talking points Taaffe is tasked with is to get out Zimmerman’s story that Zimmerman doesn’t know Officer Smith. When O’Mara took over, he must have assumed that task as well.

     Didn’t Smith respond to burglary reports or Zimmerman calls previously?

     • One officer at the scene did know GZ from previous calls, don’t know if it was Smith tho. I admit I did not pay much attention to Taffe earlier. Should go back and watch his interviews. Interesting here he says George told him to “stick with that story”. “Story?” Hmmm… Also, when asked if he knew George carried a gun, he hesitated in answering “Um…no.” Finally, when he denied carrying a gun but at most carried “pepperspray or something non-lethal”. What would that other non-lethal thing be? http://weinterrupt.com/2009/09/umbrella-performs-double-duty-as-weapon/

       • What’s most disturbing to me is that George developed a story and wanted to make sure it gets out to the “masses” via his unsuspecting surrogates. Taaffe is also the same guy who said Zimmerman had simply had enough [of black teenagers traipsing through his yard on his communal grass, or was it the robberies that seemed to escalate only after Zimmerman moved in and convinced the HOA that he was NW?].

         • CSFC,

           I have wondered about the burglaries being a setup especially seeing how all the burglaries could not be verified as to what race the person was. I wonder why it is that the neighborhood watch officer with the Spd, when asking Zimmerman to provide a list of others that wanted to patrol he did not supply the information. Why was it only Gz and Taaffe the only one allowed to patrol. It makes you wonder if it wasn’t a way for GZ to have access to the SPD as far as any leads on break ins that he and his buddy Taaffe had done. I did notice he was constantly asking about the burglary suspects in emails to the SPD NW officer. It seems funny how Taaffe hates a thief but served 9 months for theft and has other criminal records. Zimmerman is no saint as well with his assault charges, etc. How was GZ making it when he spent more time unemployed then employed. His own wife admitted they spent a good bit of their marriage receiving unemployment benefits. It also stood out to me that Zimmerman, his wife or Taaffe was mostly the witness to a crime or possible crime in that neighborhood. I really think something is wrong in that neighborhood. Zimmerman rented property there, he could have moved, if in fact the burlgaries were that bad. I want the prosecution to ask him why didn’t he move. All of this is suspect to me, him shining flash lights late at night, Nw volunteer would be the perfect cover to steal, if they catch you all you have to do is say I was patrolling and found the door open, which is why I dont believe he wanted anyone else to take part in it. How the heck can one person patrol as NW and it be effective?? Why would people bend over backwards for nw and nw committee if they weren’t interested in following through, the burglaries evidently weren’t that bad. Some people didn’t even know about the watch activity. I wish someone would look into this because I wouldn’t be shocked if this entire neighborhood was led astray by GZ and company.

     • “Didn’t Smith respond to burglary reports or Zimmerman calls previously?”

       Yes, he did.

       • Broken record alert…

         I can’t see what you’re replying to on WordPress’ app but I’ve put together a draft posting regarding Officer Smith. I have a gut feeling something is off with him. My gut feelings usually deserve at least a follow-up/discussion.

         If you have anything on Smith — I plan to search the comments before posting in the event anything was mentioned previously — feel free to email me.

     • On the subject of Taffe, I thought he was GZ’s friend but seems to have left him out to dry in this video, at 1:35 mark: Says GZ had “fed up” issues and wasn’t gonna take it anymore. He’s a nightmare for the defense.

       • In Taaffe’s statement to the FBI, he says Zimmerman and he weren’t friends. I’m not buying that at all. The phone records should be interesting.

         • @NLME, Taaffe seems all over the place. Does he support GZ, yes, but he also knows GZ is a nutbag? Why?

           Let’s entertain a wild theory *********.
           Background: DeeDee says there’s an old man saying “What are you doing around here?”

           When GZ tells NEN to “you know what, have them give me a call and I’ll tell them where I’m at.” He sounds calmer then. Why? Spots his friend, Taaffe, aka old man who had just caught up with him at the top of the T. They talk for a bit (Was that the conversation the teacher or somebody heard before she went to do something and then came back?”

           At the same time, TM might have been hiding behind one of those dividers between houses but sees Taaffe and is thinking, OK there’s a neighbor, clean cut looking guy, I can come out now not knowing they’re “friends”, he actually feels more at ease approaching two people rather than a lone crazy guy. He comes out asking GZ “Why are you following me for?”.

           Taaffe, aka “old man” says “What are you doing around here?” Meanwhile, GZ feeling confident with his buddy there, lunges towards TM to try to detain him.

           Shocked, TM knocks him to the ground, and backs up a few yards but is standing his ground and doesn’t run off right away. He also doesn’t run because there’s a witness now to what’s going on.

           Taaffe, wearing a white shirt, bends over to help GZ up. Alternatively, he might have ran after TM and held him up for a bit. (that’s why somebody saw a white T-shirt on top of somebody else?). The nose-punch flipped a switch in GZ’s head, gets the crazy look in his eye, goes charging after TM brandishing his gun.

           GZ calls for Taaffe to come help, but where’d he go? Taaffe is thinking, I don’t wanna get shot, I don’t want anyone to think I had anything to do with this, I’m outta here. Hence, Taaffe says “If only TM had answered the question…..”

           ******* End of wild-theory.

           • Anybody shown to have communicated with Zimmerman from 6:30 pm -7:30 pm that fateful night will have some explaining to do. My theory/fear is that there isn’t a trail.

         • @nlme –

           Over at justicequest, they claiming there’s an iphone app that is similar to the old-fashioned police cb monitoring that people can listen to if they download the app. Might be something to that although I don’t think Zimmerman had an iPhone before his windfall for killing a black teen, so not sure if that applies here. I do know that a lot of apps are available outside of apple’s apps, so maybe there’s a CB listen app for other cell phones.

           The other thing they are speculating about is evidence dumping into the doggie can. Really not sure whether to take them seriously or if its just wilding opinion-wise.

           In any event, it made me think of your walkie-talkie theory.

           • Interesting!

             The phone Zimmerman was using in Jon’s pic was definitely a BlackBerry. I’m not sure if that was his phone or not though.

           • If applying for an account so as to be able to comment at justicequest, one may need to avoid giving one’s age accurately when they ask, if age is something of which one has acquired a bit.

             unitron

         • @ So Interesting –

           As far as I’m concerned, it seems plausible. The only thing missing is a witness.

           Check out this vid done long before the evidence dumps and reenactment. Somebody ran that child from south to north and did so by cutting through an unpaved cut-through between the houses. My thoughts are that it was zimmerman himself as he had the opportunity and motive. Hell, if I wanted to catch up to someone in my own community, I’d use the cut-through as a short-cut.

           There is certainly room for cornering Trayvon Martin with one hunter approaching from the north and the other one hunting from the south. Of course the hunter from the north is free to continue his NEN call before continuing to pursue after the call ends.

       • Thanks for that video, I hadn’t seen that one before.

         It’s sad that Taaffe also thought that Trayvon Martin should have just explained who he was to this unknown person following him around in the night.

         • As a civilian stranger who has been causing someone obvious concern (as GZ already admits he knows he has, and he also has admitted that he was following), you cannot, reasonably expect to be taken into the confidence of that person. Talking to strangers and letting them know where you’re going and/or what you are doing, is a great way to invite trouble, not just for yourself, but for your entire family. Since the follower can reasonably expect you to be able to enter your home without raising alarm, letting them know that you live in the area, is simply too dangerous.

           But, that’s just the hypothetical behind “don’t talk to strangers”. GZ is the trained NW who knows of the rules and the do’s and don’ts. He also knows that he has not observed them, thus he is the one who needs to identify himself, because he knows he’s in the wrong. He, as much as admits this knowledge of wrong doing, when he immediately agrees to stop following to the dispatcher. He is acknowledging that what he has been doing is wrong, and he already knows that he has caused his suspect to become concerned for his own safety.

           GZ would certainly like to have it both ways, and say that he is the only one, with a right to be concerned for his safety, when following someone he suspects will do something criminal in the near future. However, MOM needs to explain to him that is not how it works. The SPD’s NW lessons tried to explain that to him, and they obviously succeeded, by the look of the story GZ is attempting to weave. The SP will probably alert the jury to the fact that, the only real reason GZ can have, for disobeying the rules he has learned, and at the same time trying to cover it up, is that he’s looking for a chance to use that gun he’s been carrying for so long.

       • That’s the front gate he’s standing near, and the mailboxes and first bend in Twin Trees Lane he’s pointing at when he says “George was parked here” I think.

         This is the same spot GZ marked on the map but quickly crossed out.

         I’d say this was significant if I thought FT knew his arse from a hole in the ground, but we just don’t know how he got this impression of where George parked. In other TV reports he claimed a west-facing (towards the clubhouse) spot that is identical to where GZ says he parked facing the cut thru, and claims he knows this “according to George.” But later in the same report he stands where the keychain flashlight was found and clams GZ was knocked to the ground on that spot and mounted by TM, and that he knows this “According to eyewitnesses,” which is untrue. I think he tends to pull facts from thin air.

         • Sounds to me like he’s gotten an earlier version from GZ. One which needs the fight to happen at the T, to avoid having it occur with GZ’s following as the cause.

           Ask yourself: “Why does GZ need to have TM come at him, near the T, so badly, that he ignores the body being found 40.5 feet away?”

           The only answer you can come up with is, NW rules! Because, under SYG, it doesn’t matter where the fight happened. Only NW rules say that it should not have occurred south of the T.

           GZ drops SYG in favor of trying to bring things in line with NW rules!

           Can you guess why?

           Answer: SYG only works if you have a right to be where you are when attacked. NW rules would take away his right to be anywhere south of the T, so NW would take away SYG, if GZ was discovered south of the T.

           This is why his explanations are so incredibly incriminating. They don’t explain what really happened, they only explain why GZ is attempting to put his movements in compliance with the rules and attempting to keep them within the law. But that is taking away the ability to tell a human story that has a truthful look and feel. His knowledge of NW rules and the law is killing him rather than helping him.

           • The grio has a map that shows how totally absurd this new position is- see # 3 of 5, although all points are well taken

             5 things George Zimmerman told Sean Hannity that may come back to haunt him

         • I think the key chain was placed as a marker. Do you have a way to overlay Taaffe’s positioning and Zimmerman’s reenactment positioning over the position of the evidence marker?

           • i think this would be a great idea. To create one map and overlay the stories with the facts.

             • Just be sure to make each witnesses markers a different color.
               That way we can see who’s talking each item.

155. Pity. Who should get it? Shellie Zimmerman or George Zimmerman?

     On a jailhouse call, the wife is heard telling Zimmerman the money is available for bond. That’s what it is for Mrs. Zimmerman said.

     Who is Shellie Zimmerman? Is she a dum-dum with morals that isn’t as smart as her criminal law student husband who wanted to become a law enforcer/magistrate? Or is she a messed up, confused individual raised by a jailed criminal? Is George Zimmerman’s attraction to Shellie Zimmerman based on Shellie’s knowledge of what Shellie’s dad experienced as a criminal? Is Zimmerman intrigued by how Shellie’s dad got off for his crimes?

     Zimmerman’s bff, Osterman was busted and fired for his part in protecting a fraudster and later lying about it. Zimmerman’s bragged that his friends from Manassas, VA never snitched him out and served time.

     Now, Zimmerman puts O’Mara out to dry, Osterman out to dry, Shellie out to dry and anybody else close to him. Do you see the pattern yet?

     EXPLOITATION is the purpose of his manipulation. This guy is very smart. His progression of exploits seems to be from people he finds least intelligent to those he values as most intelligent. He’s working his exploitation up, challenge by challenge. It’s his version of upward mobility.

     Of course this is only my opinion.

     • How has GZ put Osterman out to dry? Shellie may have bought-in with George for the long haul, but if Osterman knows what we think he knows, his testimony could put GZ in a world of hurt. If GZ gives Osterman any incentive to get chatty with the investigators, he really is delusional.

       For now, I’m sure Osterman’s sticking to his story because he’s worried about losing his job if he’s connected to any criminal behavior (say, obstruction, by coaching GZ on how to lie to the cops, or giving false statements about when he arrived at The Retreat and what he knew about GZ’s ‘trip to Target.’) If this was a Law and Order episode Jack McCoy would really be putting the squeeze on Osterman right now. I can’t believe Corey thinks he’s just an innocent bystander. Or can she?

       • Let’s remember GZ is spending $50,000 grand on his private security…. and who do you think that would be?

         Not saying there mightn’t be an airfare-to-Mexico amount of kickback from that in an emergency.

         @whonoze, Law & Order is a good show. If the writers put in a plot like this, they’d be sent straight down for workplace drug-testing.

         • “Let’s remember GZ is spending $50,000 grand on his private security…. and who do you think that would be?”

           Yup — at least one friend has been identified in Zimmerman’s “security detail.”

           • I’ve spent the last couple weeks playing “catch up” on this blog. I was actively following the one on the maps but then this one came up…. I don’t post much since I only have access while I’m at work and it usually causes my phone to crash…

             But one thing I’ve been wanting to add in (I made a few posts on the last blog but I never know where to chime in since everything moves so fast) –

             1) In regards to – witness testimony I don’t think people can say DeeDee’s testimony doesnt matter because she, like the other witnesses, HEARD the events. Most of the witnesses living in the community didn’t see much. So to say you can’t take in her testimony is ubsurd. What she heard is just as critical as what any other witnesses heard.

             2) One thing I noticed in reading statements and looking at maps, Zimmerman makes reference to TM circling his car as an act of intimidation and that TM was staring at him…. There were no sidewalks. I’m in my mid 20s and I don’t recall many teenage boys, or many adult men for that matter, that would trapse through grass and mud in the rain when they could just as easily walk in the street with there being no traffic…. So maybe what George claimed was him circling the car was just TM taking a firmer path rather than the muddy one.

             3) I’m a victim of an attempted rape so I know what it feels like to preyed on. Think of how you would feel as a kid walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighborhood. I still get a little paranoid as an adult. If I think I see someone in a car I definitely pick up the pace and as soon as I think I’m far enough away so they don’t realize I’m evading them I high tail it outta there… Probably what TM was doing. Caught a glimpse of what might be a man in the car, realized through the tinted windows it was and he was looking back at him, picked up the pace a bit to create a gap and as soon as he thought he was away he ran.

             4) Can someone send a message to Angela Coreys office and request that she leak the phone records next time? (I just wanted to add that in)

             5) From an article I read this morning MOM released a statement saying that there is no money left for the legal defense. Hmmmm so all that money that was being donated to the legal defense wasnt even being set aside for the defense. *shocker*…. Everything was used for George and the bond.

             6) With Georges parents setting up their own site I’m pretty sure that is GZs way of getting money that can’t be tracked. IMO-if it goes to George’s website then it can be legally tracked and monitored as to how much and what it was used for. If it goes to the dad, there isn’t as much the attorney’s or judge can do to track it or control it. So what’s to say this isn’t part of the families plan. “Dad you set up the account, say it’s for you and mom and we split it”… What’s to say George didn’t set up the site himself and that is yet another one he is controlling.

             7) I have a ton more to add now that I’m caught up but I will save it for tomorrow. Thank you all for the wonderful work you do in analyzing and investigating. I’m signing off for the day until I have more time to go in depth now that I’m all caught up on reading everyone’s posts.

             • I noted that after GZ announced how proud he was of his Hispanic Heritage, the donations immediately started to fall off. Latinos have little reason to love SYG so my guess is it wasn’t them sending in the contributions. MOM appeared at the NRA, but that appearance didn’t help much, donations peaked out at 1,500/day for a few days I’d guess, before falling back to near zero. GZ, it seems is no poster child for any cause about now, so donations would be hard to come by. But, his expenses will run rather high, since his attorney’s aren’t pro bono. My guess is that after some time with no donations coming in, they’ll have to declare him indigent and go back to the pro bono route.

               Without money to fund the support of him out side of jail, his living expenses and security etc., will quickly begin eating the families resources alive, they’ll have to consider having him surrender. That won’t get them their 100,000 dollars back, because that’s the bondsman’s fee. But, the bondsman might give them a rebate for early surrender. It’s either that or let GZ’s needs put the entire family in the poor house. So, stay tuned, there’s more coming down the pike than just traffic.

       • “Osterman’s sticking to his story because he’s worried about losing his job if he’s connected to any criminal behavior (say, obstruction, by coaching GZ on how to lie to the cops, or giving false statements”

         That’s exactly the ticket.

       • I think she has to get him on the stand first, to clarify what he did and his reasons for doing it. Then she’ll spring the trap. Osterman will find himself in a very, very big bind, he’s flip without giving it another thought.

     • Shellie is just a pawn in my opinion. I believe she’s starting to recognize this.

       • I agree. I wonder if her perjury charges will be reduced some how. She is probably filled with shame.

       • I also wonder if Zimmerman told her to hide the money before or after she him that the donated by “other people” was for the purpose of posting bond. He had to know telling her how to hide the money on a recorded call would implicate her for wrongdoings which she was later charged for.

         • I hate this computer!

           • You have a “ng” at the end of your handle now BTW. Not sure if that’s because of this computer you loathe or not.

             • You beat me to it!

         • Yes. Thanks.

           I type something, and this little demon computer jumps from place to place and box to box. The “ng” is probably the end of some now mispelled word somewhere along the lines and I never refilled the user name box, so NOW there a lot of “ng” posts.

           Wish I’d started reading with this post first! Sorry!

           Fixed.

156. “Now, what happens when GZ’s story is successfully (and it will be) deconstructed to the point where there is nothing left? How hard will it be to convince a jury he acted with malice or depraved indifference?”

     I just wanted to revisit this question from an earlier comment of mine. As much as we all want it to be “He’s a big fat f***ing liar, and a bad one at that since his entire story can be deconstructed to show the lies, case closed,” we know that’s not how it works in a court of law.

     O’Mara will say his client embellished, but that he was attacked and suffered injuries, and he had to shoot because he was in fear for his life. I’m sure he’ll also smear the dead victim.

     What is the prosecution going to do in order to squash what the defense presents as reasonable doubt and what are they going to do to prove the result of TM’s death was due to GZ’s malice and/or depraved mind?

     • It is not enough to be in fear for your life. The circumstances have to be such that they would cause a reasonable person to fear for his life. That is what “reasonable fear” means. You can’t just go popping people off because you’re paranoid.

       Considering the lightness of the injuries, and the fact the “victim” can’t explain how he got them, starting with being 49 ft out about where it happened…..and there being numerous witnesses (ear witnesses at least) to say that is not how it happened…….

       1) even without evidence of a tip-off, GZ showed himself to TM at the bend in RVC on his own evidence
       2) openly watched him from car at the very least from the mailboxes to the second bend in TTL
       3) followed him on foot for at least 30 seconds in a position TM would have been aware of (even without the DeeDee evidence)
       4) was involved in a witnessed argument/shouting match at the location he claims he was unexpectedly attacked (making a lie of the attack)
       5) was seen by several witnesses wrestling with him some 50 ft away with no prior evidence of physical violence, making that the likelier more reasonable starting point of physicality
       6) on his own evidence (and that of DeeDee) TM was in fear of him and was running away, therefore reasonable to think that it was also TM doing the running away from the T-junction argument spot to the shooting spot.

       The incidents of following/chasing in 2) and 3) and 6) add up to enough to constitute stalking, which
       a) gave TM the right to stand his ground, which by witness and medical evidence he did very mildly
       b) constitute a felony. being committed by GZ, which give him only ordinary self defence rights, which require him to retreat if he can
       c) his own evidence of doing no more than hand-slapping and wriggling shows he was not seriously trying to extricate himself to be able to retreat
       d) it also shows the attack he was subjected to was not serious enough for him to even try hard (say, as hard as a small child would) to protect himself.

       Therefore under those circumstances, shooting his assailant in the chest (carefully AIMING) was depraved.

       ===========

       We DO need to get away from “he is a liar so case closed”. That way none of the evidence against him from his own mouth can be believed. Our job is to show WHICH parts of his statements were true, because he IS the only witness to the entire event.

       It will be his own testimony that convicts him. Not the bits he’s told 15 different lies about, but the bits he’s told the truth about and which can be ascertained as such through other evidence.

     • Evidence for: No reasonable fear/Depravity
       1) Getting out of truck to go after a “suspect” is not fearful.
       2) Going after a potentially dangerous person with a gun endangers the public.
       3) No reasonable explanation for why TM would punch first, or why he would declare “you’re goin to die tonight MF” (This is not evidence so much as reasoning to discount GZ’s claim of self defense).
       4) Banging on flashlight after dispatcher says we don’t need you to follow him. There’s no need for a flashlight unless you’re still trying to look for someone.
       5) Shooting to kill. Having the dexterity and time to pull and rotate a gun with a non-dominant hand, aim carefully around your own arm but not to aim towards the stomach (better chance of survival) instead of the hear/chest. If he was lying with elbow in the ground, wouldn’t the gun be closer to the abdomen than the chest of someone straddling him? NLME, think you can convince your wife to re-enact that one? If she didn’t think you were crazy before……

       • jury instructions for 2nd degree, syg,and self defense well laid out here: http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/category/jury-instructions/;
         the investigative work done by the team at this blog site is awesome- I’ve been reading for weeks, and would love to help however i can. BTW,i noticed that GZ and SZ style of lying is to get ultra polite, and emphatic- e.g. SH:”ever hear of syg before that nite?” GZ:”no sir” Was that your voice yelling help?””absolutely it was” (same as his father said). In reality- he has little or no regard for authority and is condescending: “this site is for you- the masses.”
         check out masons other blogs a to why GZ is an out of control client at http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/i-worry-about-mark-omara-and-george-zimmerman/ – he nails it!
         you guys/ladies rock!

         • Whenever any family member the defense called during the bond hearings spoke affirmatively, those statements were typically questionable.

157. Yes, he’s a control freak. At your leisure, listen to call #114, http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/15562188/data/1/-/153ogxf/-/Call-114.null
     Shellie is trying to tell him when he might be let out of jail. He asks her, can’t you tell me in code? She says, I told you yesterday. It’s suzy’s birthday times two (or something like that). He asks if things are going according to HIS plan. She says close except it’s going to happen sooner, and they’re not going to do the “thing he needed her to reserve” (reserve what I don’t know, a hotel, a car, a plane ticket?) (Around minute 6:00 of the call). He’s got no confidence in her and sounds like he’s seething underneath because he’s not in control.

     • George hangs up on Shellie — I believe — on the call CSFC posted a week or so ago. The one about the family being hung out to dry. I think — but could be wrong — it was call 30?

       Or, maybe the line just inexplicably goes dead at the very end as Shellie gets more frustrated.

       • That was call #103. I think he hung up because he was afraid she’d say let something out inadvertently. She’s really bad at the code thing.

         • “She’s really bad at the code thing.”

           Probably because it’s made up by GZ on the fly, and for the most part makes no sense. Even when she’s using his code, he still doesn’t get it.

158. OT, I apologize, but I saw your (NLME) tweet about BP’s son using a slur against gay people. All I’ve got to say… Hate is a sickness.

     http://journalstar.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-have-no-suspects-in-reported-hate-crime/article_7f7885ce-ceb6-5ced-93bc-24c101aab53b.html

     How can anyone hate someone so much that they don’t even know? How do you hate one part of a person this much that you decide they deserve this?

     • I’m stealing this line from a relative but the more I age, the more I like dogs better than most humans.

159. Regarding off. Smith: there is some question regarding the time stamp on his report. A long time ago on daily kos there was a diary that brought up an intereting question obout the release to media of the responding officers’ reports. It seems the first batch sent out was lacking smith’s report but by the next day medi requesting the same material got a different copy that included a kinkos fax number in the margins and some questions were raised about why smiths report, which was time stamped earlier than others had been left out. I may be slightly mischaracterizing the anomaly but I do recall at the time that it raised my eyebrows. Does anyone else recall this? The fellow who brought it up had also tried a media request for the video of GZ leaving the cop shop on the night of the killing and had figured out from the way his request had been denied that Corey’s hands were meddling in the pot in some regard- this was when the first female judge had yet to recuse herself. The city claimed the video was under seal but that wasn’t really true.

     Do we know what time GZ left the cop shop? Smiths report is dated arou d 3AM I believe

     I’ll find the links when I’m not on my mobile device – don’t quote me on what all this kos diarist was on about.

     • Okay, I was slightly off but here are the links to the curious nature of the release of police reports – it’s from our pal amsterdam, who has spent a lot of time on this.

       http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/01/1079671/-Three-versions-of-Police-Report-Trayvon-Martin

       She is the one who took notice of some odd things regarding the timing of both submission and release of TIm Smith’s report.

       But the overall idea relates to this other issue I mentioned above, which is what Corey feels she can redact and why. Certainly the time that GZ left the “cop shop” on the night/next morning of the killing seems worth establishing, yet she seems to have engaged in some shenanigans to block this blogger/reporter’s access.

       http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/12/1082989/-Why-Was-Zimmerman-Affidavit-Redacted

       this short diary links to a more coherent article here

       http://www.opednews.com/articles/Will-Florida-s-Sunshine-La-by-Charlie-Grapski-120412-683.html

       I sent the author a follow-up message via kos PM and he informed me he was filing a lawsuit regarding the “leaving the cop sho” video, but that was weeks ago.

       I can’t say that I am willing to vouch for what Charlie Grapaski is writing about, esp the .doj parts but it’s worth looking at if you have doubts about SPD and the good ol’ boy network angles on the case. There seems to be ROOM for there to be more than meets the eye here.

160. I think checking the police logs of Zimmerman’s calls and the police reports of what Smith saw/heard tell the story.

     Taffee wanted us to know that Zimmerman and Smith hadn’t known of each other prior and this was an important bullet point to get out. Why?

     Because it’s also an untruth? Not sure why O’Mara followed this “officer smith and the witness stories match zimmerman’s account” meme put out by O’Mara unless zimmerman lead all to this faulty conclusion. Manipulation!

     • Did Mark Osterman know Tim Smith would the question worth investigating. Did he know other officers on the scene? It’s certainly a possibility given his time as a sheriff’s deputy in the same county as Sanford.

       Smith claims to have seen grass and/or grass stains on GZ’s back – are these visible in the photographs?

       • By the time the photographs at the police station were taken, Zimmerman had had the back of his jacket against the seat back in the police car for some several minutes, so they aren’t useful for that.

         unitron

       • Osterman hasn’t been a deputy there for years, like about 5 or 6 at least I think.

         I don’t think they were stains so much as bits of grass stuck to the wet jacket. They’d fall off as soon as it dried up a bit. Plus he was in the car. NOT leaning against the seat if he was cuffed behind, unless it’s one of those fancy Crown Vics with the special hollow in the seat backs for cuffed arms.

         But he must have been uncuffed at one stage for the EMTs to clean blood off his hands and arms. Maybe as someone they knew, they left him uncuffed until they drove into the sally port.

         • In other words, Tim Smith’s word is all we have to say that GZ had grass on his back. It’s always seemed like an odd detail to add to a report but proof of nothing yet AFAICT.

           Grass stains show up on your knees fairly quickly if one is wearing blue jeans and wrestling on your hands and knees. I don’t see any on GZ’s pants in the photos.

           • Speaking of grass stains, have not heard of any mention of grass stains on TM’s clothes, especially on the knees of his light colored pants which would indicate an extended period of time on the ground pinning GZ down as opposed to just rolling around. Could be wrong but didn’t see pictures or read anything about it in the evidence dump.

             • Good catch!

               unitron

             • Very interesting point.

             • Only thing I remember from the report from second discovery dump was the clothing was damp from TM. I will double check, but I don’t recall anything else.

         • Smith cuffed him at the scene.

           When he got out, unaided (which means they failed to put his seatbelt on) of the back of the police car at the police station he was still cuffed.

           I feel certain they weren’t stupid enough to have uncuffed anyone who just shot someone anywhere in between the scene and the station.

           unitron

         • ooohh, why not? it was self defence and his gun has been taken and there’s a screen between front and back, isn’t there? and they know him?

           Well anyway at least for the first aid they had to uncuff him.

           I think he tucked in his shirt when reholstering the gun, to be able to get at the holster inside his waistband.

           The EMTs don’t recall him saying about calling for help but no-one came, only Smith said he heard him saying that to the EMTs.

           • Are you saying you think Zimmerman tucked his own shirt back in prior to Officer Smith arriving and taking him into custody?

             unitron

         • The photos were not taken until 11.45 pm or so, by which time he’d also had at least one (unaccompanied) bathroom break.

         • @unitron –

           If Zimmerman tucked his own shirt in, why isn’t there blood on his interior shirt since the paramedics washed his hands and arms after seeing blood on them? In order for the paramedics reports to be true, somebody else had to tidy Zimmerman up.

           • I wasn’t making a claim, I was trying to be sure I understood aussie correctly, as I would think Zimmerman tucking his shirt in immediately afterwards before his surrender to Smith might well result in transfer from his hands to his shirt of whatever of interest might be on his hands at that point.

             unitron

         • He tucked in and holstered first.

           Then he smeared the blood from the nose cut and head scratches — though I’d say the EMTs statement of 45% blood coverage was probably exaggerated. That’s where blood on the hands came from.

           Although… he was heard saying the gun is on the ground. So he didn’t holster it until after he’d gone for his little walk all over the place.

           One witness saw him walk as far as the “little tree” near the T (where the keylight was found). Another witness saw him there with his hand to his head “bladed” ie above his eyes, like peering into the distance, probably looking where the cops were. All this before Jonathan came around the corner with his flashlight and started taking the photos.

       • Grass stains — Just wondering if Zimmerman had grass stains on his knees as he straddled Trayvon Martin. He definitely had grass stains and debris on the FRONT of his shoes. Didn’t see a thing on his back despite Smith’s reports and didn’t see debris on his back on any of the police station pics. Also don’t see anything showing Zimmerman’s knees were in the grass although we KNOW he was at some time on top since Zimmerman’s shoes tell that story and Zimmerman, and two witnesses even said so.

         Evidence of what Trayvon’s pants look like have been on my mind, too. Unfortunately, we probably won’t get to know what Trayvon Martin’s clothes could have otherwise told us about what happened that night because Zimmerman altered the crime scene when he (again, in his own words and witnessed by Cutcher and Selma) positioned himself on Trayvon Martin’s back and frisked him as Zimmerman claims to have *spread his arms*.

         I imagine a 200 lb guy on top of a 150 lb child would press his body into the grass as well as put blood on any clothes touched during a frisk from atop a lifeless person.

         If during the “cpr” presses “from the back” didn’t leave blood on the back center of Trayvon Martin’s clothing, the blood on Zimmerman’s hands could have only been achieved AFTER he touched his own own nose and/or head AFTER he shot Trayvon Martin. To believe otherwise means you KNOW Zimmerman is lying about what happened. Only then can you accept that Selma and Mary are lying about this part of Zimmerman’s story.

         • I think there is a single drop of blood from GZ or unidentified person on the back of Trayvon’s hoodie. I’ll have to go dig this up again.

         • @aussie –

           That would be awesome. I remember only a drop of blood on the interior of Trayvon Martin’s clothes being discussed, but don’t recall an actual location of that blood. For some reason, I’ve been left with the impression that zimmerman’s blood was inside Trayvon’s hoodie pocket. Can’t remember why. I’m on evidence and speculation overload!

       • I think it is worthy of investigation.

         On another note, who’s this guy in the light shirt hanging out with the police inside the crime scene in this vid @4:55 forward?

         http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2012/03/29/in-session-mike-brooks-breaks-down-trayvon-martin-police-report.in-session?iref=allsearch

         He’s got hair (unlike the M&I vid we’ve speculated is Osterman). George grew hair, too. What does Osterman look like really and what did he look like on 2/26/12. He’s an air marshall, right? What did he look like on the flights he was on during the week or two before 2/26/12?

         • The only person mentioned as being inside the tape (and asked to leave) was “an Asian male” ie Jonathan the cell-phone photographer.

           Osterman looks shaven on his Facebook page and other photos, too, I think that’s his normal style.

       • @Loree –

         There was debris collected from Trayvon Martin’s clothes and from Zimmerman’s. Tussle in the grass.

         • Thanks for the response. But, if debris was collected we don’t know if it during the tussle, or after he was shot, laying in the grass. He was also turned over to perform CPR, so we don’t know if the debris was on him before, during and after.

         • Agreed. My point was that Zimmerman won’t get to walk based on whether or not Trayvon Martin’s pants have grass stains because the story told by his clothing is tainted. I agree there may be a reasonable explanation. I am just mindful that, based on zimmerman’s own words and two witnesses, zimmerman had motive and opportunity to taint evidence by pressing Trayvon Martin’s body into the grass using his full body weight.

           • Agreed. Didn’t mean to sound harsh. I was just pointing out the debris will have almost no value, because of him dying in the grass, and other people tainting the body. The only good evidence we have so far is the lack of DNA on TM from GZ, among other things
             We cool : ^ ))

         • @Loree –

           I felt no harshness. Always appreciate your insight.

           • Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate your insight also.

161. NLME
     Was the link redacted on my comment above regarding police reports from 8/2004 to current or did I post incorrectly?

     • I didn’t see a link but wasn’t on a PC and thought I missed something. If you want to repost the link only, I will add it to your original comment.

       • Okie Dokie
         Thanks

         • Click to access trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

           Police reports from George Zimmerman as the caller from 8/2004 to current.

           • Thank you (again)!

             • As always your living room is the best in the country!

             • Thank you! Everybody is always welcomed over. 🙂

         • Seconded! NLME has a real comfy LR. I like it!

           • 🙂

             • “Seconded! NLME has a real comfy LR. I like it!”
               That’s why I stayed!

             • Would you mind picking up the empty bottles and take-out food containers every once in awhile? 😛

             • If Lonnie gets the food containers, I’ll get the bottles in the recycling bin.

             • No way, yuckkie food containers with unidentifiable masses… I’ll get the bottles.

             • Here you big baby take the bin, I’ll get the containers, Geeeez

             • What? No maid service?

             • Ha! Good One!

         • I’ll third that. 🙂 Very comfy living room. Almost like it’s my own! Heh. Great group of people here; semi restores my faith in humanity.

           • Ditto. The people here give me hope of a better tomorrow.

         • @NLME

           “Would you mind picking up the empty bottles and take-out food containers every once in awhile?”

           *goes to grab a trash bag* 😛

           • Hahaha

         • “Would you mind picking up the empty bottles and take-out food containers every once in awhile?”

           LOL!

           Ok. I’ll do the dishes (yeah, i know we used paper plates and cups).

           • My virtual living room is starting to remind me more and more of college. 🙂

162. Hi – I’m a reporter trying to reach folks who are putting a lot of time into analyzing evidence. Can I interview you?

     • Thank you for checking out the blog and commenting!

       Replies to Frances’ comment may exceed the allotted 5 (I think) replies. If the replies fill up, the easiest thing may be to respond with a new comment and include an @Frances.

     • I wasn’t there and won’t be on the jury, but I’m cool with giving my opinion about how I decided Zimmerman’s killing of an unarmed child puts our society in wild-wild west mode and sets us (as a society) back 100-fold.

     • Can you tell us where you hail from and how you would use it?

       • she is from miami herald

         • @Frances: I like your papers treatments of this case so far, so I guess I’d be willing. I don’t know how much my words will be worth, I’m trying not to overwhelm myself with details. When I do dig into a case it can easily become pathological, so I try to skim and keep it light if I can.

       • @Frances: I’ll second this question.

         • Fair enough.
           And I think the “people tapping away in mommy’s basement’ point is well taken. I would try to do a careful balance between interesting pieces of overlooked evidence and the fact that many people with no vested interest in the case are the ones who are uncovering them. I think that’s fascinating.
           My email address is frobles at miamiherald.com … Give a shout if you don’t mind talking to me about your analysis and work on the case. Thanks!

           • The two phrases “typing away in mom’s basement” and “tapping away in mommy’s basement” differ from one another by a number of letters, all of which seem to be available on any standard computer keyboard.

             Is it usual to put quotation marks around something when you are paraphrasing rather than quoting verbatim?

             unitron

         • You all should go to the Herald and check out her stories on the case. She has done some really good research behind her work. As always, we won’t agree 100% (he did NOT turn himself in the first time 🙂 ) but I find that she is fair and always open to hearing differing views about the evidence and feedback on her articles. In other words, she isn’t a hack, in my very limited and humble opinion.

           I could detail some of the things she scooped like ID’ing Mark Osterman but really a great body of work. Zimm supporters think she’s biased so you know she is dealing in fact and not conjecture.

         • @princss6

           “Zimm supporters think she’s biased so you know she is dealing in fact and not conjecture.”

           That gave me a good laugh!

     • Are you planning a story about the various aspects of this case in which neither the prosecution nor the defense seem to have any interest, or interest in seeing them further explored?

       Or is going to be more along the lines of “Look at all the conspiracy freaks typing away in mom’s basement”?

       Unlike some here and at some other sites possibly worth looking at, I didn’t come into this on anybody’s “side”, just as someone wanting to know what really happened that night.

       (since then my estimation of the Sanford Police Department has gone up somewhat and my estimation of Florida’s governor has done what I wouldn’t have thought possible, gotten even worse)

       There’s an aspect of “trying to solve the puzzle” to it which I try not to let blind me to the involvement of real human beings while simultaneously attempting to maintain some distance and impartiality.

       I’m aware that any “entertainment value” comes at the price of one life taken and another turned upside down and inside out, not to mention the toll on the respective families and the broadsided careers at the Sanford PD.

       Any questions?

       unitron

     • I became involved with this to test the known (released) statements against the time-line of possibilities, after seeing the victim being viciously blamed for causing his own death.

       As an Australian, I am shocked to see evidence released ahead of a court case. In the British legal system used in Commonwealth countries, evidence is sealed until the trial, to increase the chance of the trial being a fair one.

       However I can see in the US it is a necessary method for ensuring defendants are not railroaded through discrimination in the judicial system.

       That in turn is caused by the system of judges and prosecutors being ELECTED and police chiefs being appointed by local elected officials.

       Everyone running for election (and even more so, for re-election) is going to pander to their voter base and the financial supporters of their campaigns. This means any prejudice or discrimination in the monied part of the local population is going to be reflected in the officials they elect. This can give only bad results for the social under-class, be that based on skin colour or income.

       Remember documented cases where the local sheriff was also the local Klu Klux Klan leader?? Even without such blatant cases, what chance of a fair trial does someone have when the judge, sheriff and prosecutor (and maybe even the one attorney available to the defendant) are all from the same family, sharing the same prejudices?

       In Commonwealth countries, judges, prosecutors and police are employed by the State, based on experience and merit. Police recruited from small towns are never assigned to work there, deliberately to avoid the risk of favouritism.

       Yes there are cases of corruption in Australia, and police brutality and racism too. Deaths in custody predominantly involve black (Aboriginal) defendants. But if they survive to get to court they are dealt with even-handedly. The government also funds legal teams that specialise in defending various types of minorities.

       Trayvon did not survive. He cannot speak for himself. He needs us outsiders to make sure the evidence is analysed in a way that lets his story come out.

       • I believe there were some international reports of solidarity standing with this unarmed “kid”. I, for one, was very happy to see that.

         Other reports mentioned the inhumanity of trying juveniles in a way that could result in death penalties or life sentences, IIRC. It was good to see the whole world vocalizing that the U.S. should not be promoting guns at the expense of kid-killing.

     • Hello Frances Robles,
       I would be open to a interview. I have been following this case since February. People here on BccList and the blog owner are extremely intelligent and are well prepared in their responses and information provided. Having said that, I really would like to know what kind of questions you would be asking and what kind of storyline you will be using. I take this case quite seriously, and my hope is that you will write an article referring to all the hard work and thoughts of the people on this blog. I must say your newspaper , Miami Herald has put out some great articles and links. Main Stream Media has not done a good job on reporting facts and pointing out the most obvious lies told by GZ.

       Sincerely,
       Loree

       • Ditto!!!

163. Why is this lady so defiant that the police don’t want to know?

     • That may be M. Cutcher’s mother. Unfortunately, anything she (MC) had to say about GZ’s actions post-shooting and her testimony about a little child screaming and certainty that it was TM will not be useful to the prosecution as she’ll be discounted by defense as a media hungry witness.

       • Well I don’t think it affects her daughter’s testimony. And given that GZ is now posting his testimony on bathroom walls, I don’t know that it makes any difference.

         • LOL! Too funny. Too true-like.

       • HAHA if being media hungry disqualifies a person, ZIMMERMAN IS DISQUALIFIED. The Cutchers got a 5 minute interview, GZ got a whole 1 hour show to himself. Whatever they added afterwards in terms of who or what was screaming, the fact remains they DID HEAR IT.

         • @ San San B and @ Aussie, Ok you guys have a point there. This whole thing is just a circus.

       • To find out which witnesses are dangerous to the defense, just google who Fox discredited as useless witnesses.

         • “To find out which witnesses are dangerous to the defense, just google who Fox discredited as useless witnesses.”

           A great rule of thumb!

     • I would really like to know from the mouths of the PD as to why those two women were considered inconsistent/not credible/liars. Was it just because they had already heard John’s version, so they deemed it inconsistent with that tale? We all know how reliable/credible he turned out to be. *you can insert a huge eye roll here*

       Seems like PD had already drawn a conclusion then only went looking for evidence in support of that.

164. CommonSenseForChangeng Says:

     July 22, 2012 at 2:24 pm

     @unitron-

     Indeed. Since I don’t use wordpress, I don’t really know what you’re dealing with. But I did know that I wasn’t mocking you or implying you’re into publicizing dead bodies. I’m sure you already know that because we’ve shared opinions about this case at viewfromll2.

     In case you don’t know, my opinion on dead body viewing is that it shouldn’t be done. That’s why I suggested a sketch only. I can’t even get with people posting dead people in caskets, but it happens all the time. I half-heartedly understand their need to do so because they want to show the deceased had a beautiful ceremony and people loved the deceased.

     I DON’T want to see the tear in Trayvon Martin’s eyes on the pic presented to Tracey Martin. I can already see it clearly already and it is painful and disturbing. I only want to see confirmation of contradictory evidence of the body position. A sketch could serve that purpose.

     I’m 100% sure you know I meant no offense to you personally. When in doubt, scoll up!

     if you don’t use WordPress, how do you post here? Carrier pigeon?

     And does anybody know why out of the blizzard of comment notification emails I receive just from this thread I never got one for the above post?

     (which is why I have no reply button specific to it)

     unitron

     • I use the web interface. Apparently, my lazy handed key-board use resulted in my jumping cursor which ends up wiping out whole words and paragraphs while simultaneously automating words being typed/suggested based on the first couple characters I manage to type although my computer doesn’t at certain points distinguish a tab from a space and jumps to input boxes. Who knew!?! Annoying to say the least.

       You may not have gotten my email if within wordpress there’s some feature to prevent idiots (like me) that fail at catching email or username screw ups on my end while blocking unknown email addresses or user names on the inbox end. I have apparently not caught a few computer-aided cursor jumps while typing a response and ended up screwing up my own user name inadvertently.

       So sorry for the confusion. I’m a K.I.S.S.er and never bothered with wordpress since http is closer to a standardized experience. Still, as I have demonstrated, a user can screw up EVERYTHING!

       • When I load

         Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 2nd Evidence Dump Released

         in Firefox on my computer running XP, the software that handles the comment process is apparently from WordPress.com

         It’s a royal pain.

         Maybe I can create an account just for bcclist and see what that gets me.

         unitron

165. Sleepless in Sanford. His two black eyes are from chronic insomnia. GZ has meds for that. When a person can’t sleep well night after night, they get these dark, discolored eye sockets. Like Uncle Fester of the Adam’s Family. That’s what I notice on George. Could these be mistaken for the kind of black eyes that result from getting punched by a skinny kid’s boney fists? (Maybe a Zimmer-supporter would make that mistake in judgement.) But, those would be bruises, like broken blood vessels with internal bleeding, and maybe even some blood on the surface. That looks totally different.
     No, I don’t believe Trayvon punched GZ. I don’t believe Trayvon doubled back voluntarily. What has happened is George and friends have tainted the investigation with myths like substituting punched eyes for insomniac eyes.

     • So true. Real black eyes are not mistaken as sleepless night eye baggage. Up all night is the eye “damage” I saw in the vids.

     • @Screamin The doctors’ report indicated the black eye were the result of GZ nose being broken, a common occurance.

       • I’m fine with however this turns out. I hope Trayvon was defending himself and messed GZ over a bit. But I’m going to need real proof of broken noses and black eyes. And proof that people can now shoot kids to death out in the open based only on suspicion. And proof that shooters of minors can walk and keep their weapons and stay on neighborhood watch. Because at this point I suspect that Trayvon was innocent and I don’t want to live in a world like The Retreat was that night.
         Honestly, the scratches I see all over George’s face look like they were from a stumble. Maybe that 50 foot stumble he made from the sidewalk “T” to the final spot. I see an encounter with something natural like a cactus, a bale of hay, or . . . a grassy yard. Maybe he wiped out and his head got rubbed in the grass. Maybe more than once. I could speculate about the details of the scuffle here, but I won’t.
         The little scratches are all over the place: front of the face, side of the face, back of the head. What kind of punches leave little scratches all over like that? Grass stubble does.

         • I agree that the scratches on his face/head (the front) look more like he biffed it and face planted. I’m going to need more proof of the black eyes and broken nose, too. I don’t see black eyes, I see dark circles, but not “black eyes.” His doctor saying it is so quite frankly doesn’t mean shit considering the doctor didn’t even verify that it was actually broken just that it was “likely.” Did he ever break his nose before that night, and was the location of the break in the same spot? Too many questions, not enough answers.

           • His doctors use of the work “likely” makes his opinion non-medical and worthless! The doctor is saying “I’m not giving a medical opinion that can be relied upon in any way!” So, for legal purposes, the doctor has said nothing at all that is admissible as evidence in a court of law! So, if we’re going to do anything, figure any way, we have to do it without using the doctors opinion, which is why the doctor gave it that way.

         • From the beginning those little scratches have puzzling until someone pointed out the small tree that stands right in the area where GZ says he got socked. He practically runs into it during the reenactment. The scratches were definitely made by something like running into a tree, tree branches, or falling into the bushes (apparently a witness heard that). I agree. The scratches are decidedly not the result of being punched in the face, and I hope the prosecution gets to ask GZ something like: “Was that when you ran into the tree?” We also need to remember how very dark it was. I’d like to know just how dark, what lights were on, etc.

           It has occurred to me that GZ, though having run into a tree, may actually believe that TM attacked him. Stranger things have happened.

         • From the beginning those little scratches have been puzzling until someone pointed out the small tree that stands right in the area where GZ says he got socked. He practically runs into the tree during the reenactment. The scratches were definitely made by something like running into a tree, tree branches, or falling into the bushes (apparently a witness heard that). I agree. The scratches are decidedly not the result of being punched in the face, and I hope the prosecution gets to ask GZ something like: “Was that when you ran into the tree?” We also need to remember how very dark it was. I’d like to know just how dark, what lights were on, etc.

           It has occurred to me that GZ, though having run into a tree, may actually believe that TM attacked him. Stranger things have happened.

           • “From the beginning those little scratches have been puzzling until someone pointed out the small tree that stands right in the area where GZ says he got socked. He practically runs into the tree during the reenactment. The scratches were definitely made by something like running into a tree, tree branches, or falling into the bushes (apparently a witness heard that). I agree. The scratches are decidedly not the result of being punched in the face, and I hope the prosecution gets to ask GZ something like: “Was that when you ran into the tree?” We also need to remember how very dark it was. I’d like to know just how dark, what lights were on, etc. It has occurred to me that GZ, though having run into a tree, may actually believe that TM attacked him. Stranger things have happened.”

             Son Of A Birch!

             If Zimmerman ran after Martin and didn’t see the tree in the dark…

             unitron

         • @Pooh

           I chuckled at your post. Yes, GZ may have thought he was attacked by Trayvon when he ran in the tree. There was a very recent story in Florida where I got was beat really bad and he said 4 or 5 black guys attacked him. Roll tape – he was a skateboard enthusiast and ran into a wall.

           http://www.bradenton.com/2012/07/22/4123199/miami-mans-tale-of-attack-unravels.html

           Sound familiar?

         • I agree with the “black eyes” being from lack of sleep. Definately. I have them from lack of sleep and from an iron deficiency…

           As far as the scratches on his face. LOOK CLOSER. Its actually blood that has been wiped away. Blood coming from the open wounds on his had. If you look at the pictures of him from all angles you will see that the blood is running from the back of his head around to his face. This alone tells me that Zimmerman was on TOP of TM, lookiing down at him.

           Grab a cup while you’re in the shower, look down and pour it over the back of your head. Notice how it runs around to your face. GZ had to have been on top. And those “scratches” can clearly be proven to blood if you look at the evidence pics close enough.

       • *Likely* broken nose.

       • hey John W, there WAS NO DOCTOR’S REPORT.

         There was a report from a Physician’s Assistant, which stated there MAY be a “possible closed fracture” of the nose that didn’t require xraying or any treatment.

         Dark circles under the eyes are from lack of sleep, certain types of kidney trouble, or in the case of people from India, just genetic. Black Eyes involve SWELLING as well as dark colouration, and the blackness takes up to a week to disappear, like all bruises.

         There was no swelling or blackness visible on the walkthrough video.

         • I am so thankful I’m not just seeing (or, errr, not seeing) things! I see dark circles. If that is what constitutes black eyes then I have black eyes every day of my life, LOL. Thank God for concealer! All I see is a slight grey cast in the inner corners. Big whoop!

166. Let’s say the first part of the reenactment was true(ish).

     From Tchoupi’s clubhouse light analysis, he was not parked at the clubhouse. He was cruising along RVC past the intersection, then did a U-turn and cruised back a ways west into RVC. This is when he starts the NEN call.

     The description of suspicious behaviour is from earlier, not concurrent with the call.

     “He’s here now…” is when TM first comes into sight. 7.10:16 or 45 secs into the call.

     Trayvon stares at GZ then goes down to the mailboxes, about 7.11:15. ***

     GZ drives around the corner and does a u-turn (as per the videos). He stops halfway between the first position he marked on the map for Singleton, and the position he showed in the walkthrough.

     The u-turn is necessary in case the suspect decides to make a run for the main gate. Instead, he walks past the car and then starts to run.

     7.11:45 “Shit he’s running”. TM runs down TTL which is how GZ can tell he’s headed for the back entrance.

     GZ has to get out of the truck, as he snookered himself with the u-turn to face west. In his 26 secs run, GZ gets just far enough into N-S TTL to see Trayvon disappear into the first unpaved cut through. GZ backs up and walks along the top path, hoping to see TM emerge on the other side. When he does not do so, he says “he ran”. 7.12:08.

     BUT had Trayvon come out of the cut through and gone down the centre path, GZ should be able to see him. But he can’t. So he figures he’s kept going through to RVC.

     GZ then goes through to RVC himself (on the top path, as he shows in the reenactment), and starts heading south on it (which he didn’t show). TM is leaning on a wall in the first cut through telling DeeDee how he’s lost the creepy guy.

     GZ hangs up just as he goes through the lower cut through from RVC back onto the centre path. Poor Trayvon by then is starting to walk south. This puts GZ straight into his path again. “Cornered” as DeeDee says.

     So he turns north, walking fast. By the time they level with the upper cut through, they’re both running, as Witness 2 says.

     There is the confrontation DeeDee describes. I do believe this is where and when most of the debris field is created.

     Trayvon manages to tear himself free and keeps running north. Near the T maybe he slips on the wet grass, as GZ is able to catch him up. There is the argument that witnesses hear. BUT this argument is heard moving south, as TM again breaks free (maybe punches GZ in the nose, I do hope he did). But he gets caught AGAIN because he’s gone back to the debris field to find his phone.

     *** this does not place TM at the mailboxes for more than a few seconds. DeeDee did not place him there. Crump did, in the second interview with DeeDee. In the first interview she talks of “awning at apartments” which can be in the previous subdivision, west of The Retreat. Trayvon knows he’s staying in row houses, not apartments, he’d not say apartments unless that’s where he was.

     I do wish interviewers would SHUT UP and let the witness talk, instead of interrupting to misunderstand them.

     • Lots to consider here. Thanks.
       I’ve studied Tchoupi’s excellent maps and charts. Maybe I’m behind but I’d like to mention the importance of GZ following Trayvon.
       George tells the investigators that from the clubhouse he was “behind” Trayvon. Then he kind of shows that in the re-enactment. Remember, GZ probably did not know where Trayvon was going or what he was going to do. He might have driven ahead but he may instead have been parked close to the mailboxes when they had their stare-down. As Trayvon walks GZ could have been following him fairly closely in the truck. Realizing he was being followed may have triggered Trayvon to run. I can imagine GZ throwing his shifter from Drive into Park as he opens the door and we hear the chimes.
       The facts have been massively tainted by Zimm family stories. I really hope the prosecution can straighten it all out.

       • In the reenactment, Trayvon ran so fast, by the time GZ got to park where he shows us, TM had time to go down the T and come back again to circle the truck. So either GZ didn’t drive after him immediately (not likely) or he drove at a crawl, no accelerator, just lift his foot off the brake.

         I’ve checked the advertisements, all Ridgelnes come in automatic only, so just lifting the brake foot would allow a slow drift.

         Of course the circling story is to make out how he was minding his own business; the main theme throughout the walkthrough was to deny ANY kind of following, even at the very start.

     • “I do wish interviewers would SHUT UP and let the witness talk, instead of interrupting to misunderstand them.”

       Yes, make that a big Me Too! They call themselves professional interviewers but way too many of them do exactly that, interrupt the witness, precisely when they are about to say something important. It’s almost as if they don’t want to hear what the witness has to say, like they’re trying to keep something critical covered up. The only clue we have that, that is not the case, is that the interviewer later reveals their own cluelessness. Which comes about because they aren’t prepared, they haven’t read enough of the case history to be able to do a good job. They miss critical points being made, until someone picks up on it later. And they miss asking the critical questions, and veer away into trivia, because they don’t know what’s important from what is not.

       In any event, they’d seem much smarter if they’d just let the witnesses speak without, what they obviously think are clever attempts to prompt them. And, when a witness makes a key statement, they should be asked to repeat it, not asked to repeat mere trivia as they often do.

       It is vexing.

167. I try to think back to The Retreat before the shooting. The HOA didn’t seem to know much about the NW. In fact, the watch didn’t know much about it, either. Were GZ and friends going covert? Did they change their policy? Did they ratchet it up from defense to offense? That would be a natural response, a logical consequence.
     Don’t want the neighborhood to plummet into disrepair? Form a watch. If those teen-aged goons keep on burglarizing houses, what’s to be done?
     – start patrolling on foot and in vehicles
     – use dogs
     – use guns and hold the goons at gunpoint when possible
     – go in pairs like the real police
     – use flashlights at night and go in between and around buildings
     “These assholes always get away.” What a loaded expression! In the new policy we refer to them as “assholes” even when speaking to professional dispatchers. Get away from what? A defensive watcher wants them away. An offensive watcher wants to detain them. Think about this: if you really want to get tough, you’ve got to get the goons’ attention. If you are going to eliminate the goons, you need to get them arrested.
     I’m sure the jury will be told by the defense that this is not about neighborhood watch. It’s simply about a teenager attacking and GZ standing his ground. Well, I’m with Ms Corey and the depraved mind idea. I believe Trayvon had been noticed at The Retreat a few times during his visits and was profiled as being a local goon that just wouldn’t leave the place alone. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he leave that night after being followed in the truck and then on foot? I’m guessing the covert watch flushed him back up toward the “T” and was detaining him, possibly at gunpoint.

     • What an audacious thing to say, “These a—–‘s always get away”. Puts George way above Trayvon. By this name GZ show he thinks he is superior and Trayvon is inferior. It also groups Trayvon in a category with the local goons. Remains to be shown how much history GZ had following Trayvon around The Retreat (“He’s here now”).
       This also indicates intention to detain! GZ seems to think he has some magical powers while sitting in his truck. Is his truck blocking Trayvon? No. Why would Trayvon stay by the clubhouse? Is GZ performing hypnosis on him? Is GZ so authoritative that the goons will just melt in their boots and not be able to move? At the time he says this to the dispatcher I think Trayvon is moving out of the clubhouse/mailbox area and past GZ’s truck. For some bizarre reason George thinks Trayvon should stay there with him. His fantasy is that the police will arrive and get this kid right there.
       There is a point on the taped interviews at SPD that George is casually talking to Doris Singleton about authority and obedience of suspects. He relates his inability to project authority as a reason he HAD to shoot. These reasons are adding up:
       – he was banging my head
       – he was smothering me
       – he threatened to kill me
       – he went after my gun
       – nobody came out to help me
       – to stop Trayvon’s obnoxious blood-curdling screams (my opinion)
       and now as revealed to DS
       – I didn’t command enough authority and this a-hole wouldn’t do as I said.

       • “Yeah, that’ll learn ‘im”

168. I hate to say this, but the Total Station Map is wrong in at least one place. When I first saw it I went quickly to overlay it with my own evidence map, and was happy to see most items were spot-on. The first aid kit was wrong, and I chalked it up to not really caring abut where it was, and my only real mistake.

     But then I saw the new pictures of the evidence markers in the daytime, and guess what? The CAD drawing is different than the daytime photo where the number FOUR is concerned – the first aid kit. So then I went to lok at the nighttime pics and they are different as well.

     Others have also commented on the 567 grouping. One thing I noted when first making my own evidence map is that the markers are in numerical order from north to south, with the exception of some slight confusion regarding 6 and 8. SIX and EIGHT are in no particular order the spent shell casing and the body itself and/or the beverage can, variously reported. The shell casing was found AFTER the body was taken away, deep in the grass reportedly under the body’s final location. SEVEN is TM’s cell phone and it’s the farthest object to the south.

     here’s a stitched together panorama of the debris field:
     

     here’s my overlay
     

     note my SIX on my map (marked in yellow) matches the 567 photo, whereas the total station CAD drawing does not, and instead puts SIX north of FIVE.

     The body form has two white circles on it which I think are supposed to indicate SIX and EIGHT’S position. But again, it seems off from the shell casing photos.

     None of this makes much actual difference, but for a few feet one way or another. Still, once again it makes me wonder how good these investigators are.

     • According to night time photos
       http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=1
       the phone was further north than the (tan?) plastic bag.

       However… police did pick up the phone and see if they could get something from it, like an emergency contact etc, to identify the victim. Choosing between the photos and the drawing I’d give more credence to the photos as they were taken sooner.

       Marker 6 was the BODY. Because of the size, relative to the other items, the location can vary a fair bit, depending which end they put the marker on. It may have also been moved a bit in the process of placing the body on the stretcher.

       The shell casing was Marker 8; it wasn’t found until after the body was removed, so would have been somewhere in the area covered by the yellow tarp.

       See p.22 of first evidence dump

       Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf

       where all the items are identified by marker number (but #6 is not listed, as it’s a list of items held in the evidence locker).

       • Oh, the Iced Tea is listed on that page, with no marker number. When they were doing the markers, they already knew it had been in the hoodie pocket, so it was not relevant to mark where the EMT put it down. After Trayvon was covered with the tarp, someone placed the can on top of the tarp, perhaps to indicate that it was found on the body, not elsewhere.

         The first aid kit is a civilian one. I believe it belonged to Jonathan, who also produced the plastic bag (and vaseine??) for sealing the wound. He was also the person hanging around inside the crime scene tape. He may have moved the kit intending to take it home, and been told to leave it. This could be why it was marked so close to his house, rather than closer to the body. Of course it may have been intend for use on GZ in which case it would never need be near the body. There’s no evidence the EMTs ever used it, only the plastic bag they’d asked him for.

         But the location of the kit is an issue only of possible evidence contamination. It is not part of the debris field that may point to how the fight happened.

       • regarding the phone’s location …. I disagree, as does the total station map and plenty of other people. Look at the 567 photo, 7 is the phone. The numbers go roughly from north to south with 8 being the only exception due to the shell casing being found after the body was removed from the scene. In the 567 photo you can see the small yellow marker that points to the shell casing, in front of the 6 marker.

         look at this inverted color photo to see it show up better
         

         The tan bag is 30 feet south of the T and it’s number 2. The cell phone is more like 48-50 feet south and is (almost) last on the list for that reason. It took a metal detector to find the shell casing.

         You are right about a lot of things aussie, but you need to look this one over, IMO.

         • I really need to stop the graphics work, Willis. My eyes are not up to it. On second and third and very very close look, that is not a bag in the photo I linked. It is more likely to be one of the utility covers, as you also marked on your inverted image.

           These I read somewhere are covers for a pop-up sprinkler system??? why are there none on the other side? anyway they’d be plastic, not concrete, but the one behind the phone image might be one GZ felt his head touching.

         • @aussie –

           I had no idea you were a graphics guru like willisnewton and tchoupli. What filters can be applied to show a nighttime view of zimmerman’s coat? It’s been way too long for me and my software sucks.

         • @commonsense
           I’m not, that’s why I’m stopping it. My eyes are not up to seeing fine detail. On this current machine I have no graphics programs loaded at all.

           What are you looking for? filters to make the police station photos of GZ look like he’s outside in the dark?

           That would be useful for seeing who the “white t shirt” was.

           @ Willis, would yo be able to do that for CSFC?

         • Thanks aussie. I misunderstood what you were saying. I understand on the eyes are tired thing. Oh, I do! I think I’m on evidence overload myself.

           Yes, maybe willisnewton or tchoupi will explore the light effects. If nothing more, it will make me stop harping on the issue. Maybe if and when I get a vacation long enough to explore graphics again, I will do it myself. Time just does not permit it at the moment.

169. @aussie the report posted on the website was made by a Doctor. It is a common practice for PA and Technication to perform test and such, however the Doctor has the final say in this case Dr. Krupitsky. Yes that is the Doctors report posted on the website, done by PA Folgate. And yes black eyes are common with a broken nose

     http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000061.htm

     When all else fails. read.

     • YES black eyes are common with broken noses.

       NO he did not have a broken nose for a black eye to be common with.

       A “likely” broken nose, based on GZ saying the EMTs said it might be broken, combined with him going OUCH when it was touched, is not a diagnosed broken nose. Those are usually diagnosed by being x-rayed, a process (a) the PA didn’t think he needed and (b) he refused to get done at a ER or similar.

       • I think the defense will say that GZ refused the hospital the night before and the additional tests because his insurance is bad> I think in his conversation with Singleton (she’s the female cop right?) that he has something like a $5000 deductible, so being the frugal man he is, he wasn’t going to fork that kind of money. Besides at that point, he thought he had gotten off and wouldn’t have to defend his injuries.

         • @So Interesting,
           When he refused transport to the hospital, then refused again at the station three times, then refused to be seen by an ENT specialist recommended by his own Physician Asst., just goes to show me that he was not injured to such a degree to warrant shooting Trayvon. A normal person would of gone for treatment regardless of insurance. IMO. They are many programs that help with such bills. A normal person would of done any one of these things, but we are talking about GZ, not normal.

           • @Loree, at the risk of sounding like a GZ supporter, geez he just can’t win 🙂 Walks around with humongous butterfly bandages, and he’s criticized (Ok, laughed at); on the other hand, he doesn’t go to the ER, and he’s criticized. What’s a crazy, gun-brandishing, paranoid, accused murderer to do?

             • @So Interesting,
               You owe me a Corona with a slice of lime and salt on the rim. I spilled the last chug on my shirt from laughing.

             • @Loree, Ok, but I’m not buying anybody else beers or going to be held responsible if they fall out of their chairs due to their incredulity over GZ and this case. It’s gonna be long time before the trial is over.

             • Agreed. I will be more careful. lol : ^ )))

             • I’ll have one of those as well. Ha!

             • Here’s your Corona! Nice and Cold.

         • I suspect this all blew up his future “I got hurt on my back” disability claims against the HOA or the city of Sanford. My view on that is UNFOUNDED, I know. But that’s what his complaints about back pain sounded like to me.

           Read somewhere in the docs that zimmerman had previous back pains, but didn’t see how those pains were caused. I also firmly believe based on the before and after pics of him that his nose was previously injured.

           I’d like to know what caused (not may have caused) zimmerman’s previous injuries. I can see one being frugal about doctors fees, but it wouldn’t have cost much to get an x-ray of his nose.

           I think, like you, he decided he didn’t need anything other than superficial “evidence” to document injury because he thought he’d gotten off scott-free of charges and accountability. All he needed to do after that was locate an ambulance chaser that would do a pro-bono deal.

         • It’s possible his deductible had been met. He had some health concerns and on multiple medications. He was NOT avoiding Doc visits or he was getting scrips he should not have received, IMO

170. I heard John, witness 6, say in one of his many interviews that the wrestlers moved away from him and toward the center dividing sidewalk. This direction of the move contradicts George and discounts the visual revealing of the gun.
     Critical to the self-defense lie is GZ’s claim that he scooted down toward John’s house. This was to get his head off of the concrete. This dubious move was so far that it actually lifted his jacket and shirt up over the gun. Trayvon then sees the gun and simply HAS to be shot.
     Well, as I understand witness 6, just after he tells them to get out of there, as if to comply with his request, they slide away onto the sidewalk. Does this mean all the way onto the sidewalk to be out of his yard? Was there a rotation of legs from grass to sidewalk? The bigger question Ms. Corey may be asking, does this eliminate the exposure of the gun?
     For me, this contradiction between GZ (an incredibly bad witness) and John (mildly questionable at times) destroys GZ’s claim that his gun was exposed to Trayvon before George “recalled” that he just happened to have his handy dog-killing gun with him. It makes me wonder if the gun was already out at the time the begging and crying began which we hear at 7:16:11 on the first 911 call. Could this be yet another redirection on George’s part to keep us from knowing what he actually did?

     • “Towards” but not “to”. The body ended up at least a body-length from the sidewalk. All the debris is closer to the path than the body is. So the fight may have started closer to the path, then they rolled around in various directions, including possible a lot closer to John’s house. John was the first witness to see them.

       He may have seen them in the first few seconds of the fight actually going to ground. Prior to that it was at least partly standing/grabbing/breaking free, otherwise witnesses could not have heard the arguing voices proceeding south. No way they grappled and rolled the whole 50 ft.

     • I was also working on that topic.

       John (W6) indeed witnesses the initial stage of the ground fight. He sees Trayvon laying on George (not sitting). How we know that? Because John describes seeing only one person on the laying ground before noticing someone underneath. Then, he sees the two rotate and drift toward the walkway.

       In the mean time, W19 sees from her back patio, one person laying on the ground and John speaking to that person about calling 911. She too saw just one person laying on the ground. He would have been sitting, she would probably have seen two persons, or one person sitting.

       Then comes Austin. He is enters the scene after John & W19 went back in their homes. He too saw just one person on the ground. But that person is laying on his side turning his back to him. There has been debates on whether he saw GZ’s red jacket or not. In any case, it would have been a person sitting, he would have said so.

       So, I have to agree with Aussie about how dynamic this was and that they probably moved around on the ground as described by John. However, the point I found interesting is that nobody saw Trayvon mounting George. All witnesses describe 1 or 2 persons in an horizontal position.

       George describes TM sitting on his stomach. This is actually a required position to punch the person underneath you.

       If Trayvon was leaning on George then he was probably not punching him. He was more like pinning him down. This is something John actually brought in his interview.

       You have to add this to other facts like, there was no sound of punching, George injuries were not consistent with being punched for a whole minutes. George had no defense wounds…

       • The point I found interesting is that John claims at one point or another, that Zimmerman obviously moved his own body from the non-lethal grass onto a harder surface and Zimmerman claims shimmying. In Zimmerman’s reenactment, he would end up in the grass even if the fell at the tee. How is it standing your ground to position yourself from a non-lethal position into a dangerous one?

         I think John’s view and vantage point led him to believe the bodies were positioned on the sidewalk, but they were actually positioned in the grass. You get a better view of what’s where with an overhead view, not a view from the ground. Most other witnesses saw what happened from their upstairs windows.

       • And if Trayvon was pinning Zimmerman down and they both heard the responding officers’ sirens, who would have more to “lose?” Probably the armed guy that was a wannabe cop getting pinned down by a wiry teen. Shot fired…

         • I don’t know if there’s a rule or common practice about it, but here they nearly always use lights and sirens together. I don’t recall ever hearing sirens without the lights also going. I have seen lights without sirens, but rarely. One was an ambulance with police escort crawling at close to walking pace, transporting someone with a severe spinal injury from one hospital to another. A few times it was police in residential areas very late at night when people are sleeping.

           Officer Smith was not responding to the 911 calls. He was responding to the NEN call. He did enter the estate with the lights flashing — they clearly show on the clubhouse videos. So we can fairly safely assume sirens as well.

           (Taaffe somewhere mentions a problem about calling the police — they arrive in “an overt fashion” causing the suspects to leave).

           Smith seems to have gone down TTL and back up RVC which is where he ended up parked. Meanwhile Witness 18 saw GZ walk up to near the T and look into the distance with his hand shading his eyes, as if looking for someone.

           • “Meanwhile Witness 18 saw GZ walk up to near the T and look into the distance with his hand shading his eyes, as if looking for someone.”

             So theoretically he could have dropped the keychain flashlight there before Smith arrived.

             Unlikely, but interesting that it’s possible.

             unitron

             • Or, when Zimmerman put his hands up to “surrender.”

               I’d love to know where Smith first met Zimmerman that night. I suspect it to be near the T given the flashlight’s location and debris field which was (obviously) closer to the shooting.

           • The gated community is surrounded by residential (or, not rural) streets that the responding officers would be traveling on. The officers responding to a scuffle – W11 – would presumably be traveling at a high rate of speed. I’d purely speculate both lights and sirens would be blaring to warn others on said streets.

         • Did they respond with sirens wailing? I was thinking they made a silent approach, not that I saw any reference to what kind of approach they actually made. I’d just think that if they were coming to investigate a suspicious person, a silent approach would probably be more appropriate.

           • Ahhhh — I just saw this. Given that the gated community was surrounded by residential-ish streets, I’d expect lights and sirens to be blaring once W11’s 911 call was received.

             I’ll guess many of the first responding officers were heading to the community to check out the “suspicious person” Zimmerman spotted. Once they caught wind that there was a scuffle, I’d expect the officers to respond more urgently. The sirens/lights would warn those walking/driving on the neighboring streets. Who knows, though?

             • We have also to factor in some delay in the communications, a few seconds perhaps, but with travel at even the relatively low speeds of the first responders, they could have already been so near the scene, that sirens weren’t needed. So, that it would be officers further away who might be heard first. Golly, now we need approximate positions of these cars at gunshot notice time, if we want to know what might have been heard at the scene.

               Probably best to just question witnesses, or examine 911 call tapes?

               Just a thought though, sirens probably would not have made any difference to GZ, since he already knew the police were coming. Sirens nearby would only mean that he had to hurry up and make his decision.

               Like others here, I’m of a mind that GZ drew his gun much earlier than the shot taken. He probably had it out some time during the scream time.

               I can only guess at the psychology here, but , using GZ’s attention to NW rules and SYG law, in his effort to construct a story that preserves the best of both for himself, I’d have to say that he was keenly aware that having drawn his weapon at that time and place, under those circumstances, was a serious offense that he’d have to somehow answer, but ONLY if TM were to survive to testify. Why that would be, is that either the other witnesses didn’t see it, or, the only ones who did would not testify about it.

               Oh, yes, there is one other possibility, that the clothing and angles between the two of them, would prevent other witnesses from seeing a drawn weapon. In which case only TM could raise such questions. But the key is, from the attention GZ pays to the rules and law he is aware of, he has to know that he has committed a serious crime, and that is his motive for killing.

               His being south of the ‘T’ and holding TM are minor things if no serious injuries occur. Nothing that a few claims and counter claims can’t minimize.
               However, even from just the gun lore that a non-gun owner/lay person picks up, pulling a gun on an unarmed person is always considered a very serious matter by LEO’s, because it’s even a serious matter among themselves.

               So there’s a few thoughts I believe should be added to the mix.

         • Many clubhouse vids clearly show the blue light scanning on the walls of the ambulance. Concerning police cars, and there was many in the complex, I noticed only 2 instances of a red light dot, one being from T. Smith’s vehicle by the mailbox awing. In any cases, I can’t tell if those red lights are from the tail lights or from the police roof lights.

         • In Philly, the police will use lights but not sirens when there is a crime in commission. When they get very close…maybe a few blocks away, they will kill the sirens and just go with lights in order to avoid detection. I’ve seen it many times.

           • Chicago sounds similar to Philly. My neighborhood — Uptown — was seedy at times but I almost never heard sirens. Just a single blip if an officer was obstructed near an intersection.

             In a less urban but not rural Lansing, MI — specifically the time my car was broken into while parked in the driveway behind my house (so, not just a B&E on the street) and after my wife let the dispatcher know I was pursuing the person — you could hear a car approaching but the sirens went off during the last few hundred yards.

             Is there a standard protocol that law enforcement officers follow? Or, is it dependent on the community?

171. Guys watch these videos of people getting their arms twisted.

     Listen to the screaming in these two videos, especially the first one. Compare them against the screaming on the 911 tape.

     
     

     I wonder if GZ with his bouncer background knew that trick?

     But then, he’d have to be behind Trayvon to do it (whether standing or lying on the grass). So how does Trayvon get shot FROM THE FRONT?

     • Love how the cops in the first video, after twisting his arm, sits back down and asks calmy so they can fill out their report (at about 1:55 “Have you got any injuries, any medical conditions we need to know about?” LMAO!

     • The second video was very close, imo. It happened in Vancouver. Would be interesting to know if this arm-twist tactic is something practiced and taught in the U.S.

172. @aussie, read Doctors report, it was confirmed nose broken, rather the nasal bone, closed fracture.

     • @John W.
       This might help you understand that the nose was *likely* broken, but not confirmed that it was broken because he refused to go to ENT. What I believe you are looking at is the medical coding from page 2 of the medical report. The code the doctor used is 802.0 from th ICD-9. They have to use codes for billing, they don’t have a code for Likely.

       The doctor wrote:
       Broken Nose: We discussed that it is LIKELY broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation. The swelling and black eyes are typical of this injury. I recommended that he be evaluated by ENT (Ear,NoseThroat) but he REFUSED.

       • X-RAYS or it wasn’t broken. Even if he had proof from the next day, not good enough for me. Broken chain of events. He could have easily inflicted more damage over night when not in police custody before going to a family doc.

         • Exactly!

         • X-rays or it didn’t happen!!! I laughed.

173. @NLME, please feel free to delete this post after a day or mask the link below. I don’t feel right having a video of these kids linked to a well read blog about a killing. I have been looking for videos that might illustrate a bit of the fight. I actually found fights between little kids informative on the “instinct” reactions. The question posed before here was, if TM was raining blows down on GZ, then what was he doing in defense? There was a witness (teacher?) who said she was looking at the figures when the shot went off and there was not a whole lot of movement. My guess is that TM while on top straddling like this kid in the video was mostly trying to hold down both of GZ’s arms. That lets him do all the yelling he wants as he claims. Now how did GZ get cuts to the back of his head? A little rock, a tree root anything in the grass could have caused it as he was “shimmying”. The “slamming” of his head is more likely due to GZ’s attempts to get up while TM tries to pin him down at the shoulders or arms, not so much that TM is holding his head with both hands and bashing. In the video, at a couple of points the kid on top removes his hold off the little kid’s arms and does some fake punches. That causes him to sit back a bit, allowing the smaller kid to push him off balance. I think GZ did push TM off, allowing him access to his gun. I think it was still concealed at that point and the fight would have ended there if he just stood up or ran back to his truck. Instead, he makes the decision to pull out the gun. If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, then you can think that he pulled it out intending to just hold TM at gunpoint and they fight over it. If you believe the worse in him, then he made the decision to pull the trigger much earlier in the fight and was going to pull the trigger no matter what once he had the opportunity because he couldn’t let another one get away. You know that last bloodcurdling scream on the 911 tape? I actually wish it wasn’t TM, and that he died instantly without that kind of fear.
     

     • The blood curdling, gut-wrenching screams by Trayvon Martin are his way of letting the world know zimmerman is a dangerous individual. Perhaps others will be saved from like-plights because we got to hear them. His last words was “help”.

       Not “f-you”. Not “die”. Not “you don’t know who you’re messing with.” Not “Mother Fker”. His last word was “help”.

       No way George Zimmerman couldn’t have backed off if he had respect for human life.

       • I wish Trayvon would have screamed, “He’s got a gun!”

     • (I haven’t reviewed the video yet…I saw its title and thumbnail…but) I’ll leave it up unless anybody objects.

174. Just wanted to share these tidbits as possible references:

     Picture of the pool area of the clubhouse in daylight :

     View post on imgur.com

     Picture of what looks like to be Shellie ZImmerman’s car from the MI bank video but at 3:19pm……2 hours after she was videotaped withdrawing cash at the ATM counter…rather curious.

     View post on imgur.com

     You tube video of a guy driving a honda ridgeline in the rain…radio is playing very low but I do not hear the engine running sound.
     

     • It confirms that the sound we hear on GZ’s NEN call is from the wipers. In that video the wipers are faster though.

       Thanks

       • I am sure the wipers have several speeds, all cars in Aussie do.

       • In my observations of the NEN call I believe that some of the sounds are definetly gear changes. I compared them to some that I found online and used a wave file analysis to come to my conclusion….JMO

       • How many times was the window wiper sound heard on Zimmerman’s NEN call? I don’t remember exactly, but I got the impression that the wipers weren’t on full-time — like on intermittently. I don’t hear a continuous window wiper sound, iow.

         When a person sits in a parked position, do they typically keep the wipers going? Maybe if they’re still trying to see what is approaching? Does the ridgeline have a rear wiper?

         • Like most background noises, wiper noises can only be heard when neither GZ nor Dispatcher talk. This is the first reason why we can’t have hear every single wipe-bang cycles. The second reason is that the wiper was in intermittent mode. Low pace implies less cycle to hear.

           According to the the ridgeline manual, in the INT mode, the pace varies with speed. As for all cars I know, In the ridge line, the ignition has to be on level II (2) to get the wipers to run.

     • LeeLee

       a few questions
       1) why do you think that is Shellie’s car?
       if you have any more details about her wheels, can you bring them please? like make, or tag number? Tag would be useful, as we have 2 tags the police checked from the scene just after the shooting.
       2) if you have her withdrawing money, can you give us the time slot on the video concerned?

       • The bank videos start with someone looking like Shellie & end with someone looking like Osterman. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

         If anyone here has the Zs bank statements, it should be easy to check that the 1st person is indeed SZ.

         I also looked and found the address MO lives at. It is ~10min drives from the Retreat at Twin Lakes. That’s reasonably close for him to claim he was home when SZ contacted her to come and meet her at the crime scene. However, timing was tight if he made it there before GZ left for SPD station. SZ was contacted at around 7:20. GZ left at ~7:36 and no later than 7:41 to be at the station at 7:51. That’s looks tight for every party to be contacted, dress up, get to the car, pull it out and drive to destination.

         • He says he spoke with GZ (“not in detail”) and police at the scene. So had to be there before 7:36 – 7:41.

           He may be the person GZ was calling (in the bloodies head cell phone pic) then that gives him a few minutes’ head start.

           I can’t see where SZ going to the bank comes into the story at all, unless that is when she finds out there’s not enough money to go shopping with, and MO is called in to help out?

           I’ll have to have another look, but the first ATM user didn’t strike me as being SZ.

           • Just out of curiousty is every one aware that there are six new witness?

             http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120725names_of_6_secret_witnesses_in_george_zimmerman_case_released/srvc=home&position=recent

             • Actually these are not “new” witnesses, but their names had previously been redacted from the evidence dump. They had been in the media. However, it says there are 6 names. But they seem to only report on 5 of them (Brandy green, Sheryl Brown and her son, Mary Cutcher and roommate Selma). Who is the 6th witness? Is it the person who went on TV in disguise?

           • If Zimmerman was calling Osterman in the bloodied head pic, it sounds like the (now former?) air marshal has a few things to add to his statement?

             Waiting for Zimmerman’s phone records to be released is only going to get more annoying, eh?

           • @Aussie
             ” I’ll have to have another look, but the first ATM user didn’t strike me as being SZ.”

             Please do. It would seem much more likely to me, that if SZ were going to the bank to get money from MO for shopping, shouldn’t GZ have gone along?
             Then it would seem that either the three of them, or at least GZ and SZ would have gone immediately to the store, not right back home.

             Then the story would go, they spotted TM enroute and ran back to the house to get things started, with GZ claiming the trip to the store as the start point.

             I’ve got things going on, so I’ve had to pull back to just reading emails for now.

         • I mentioned this recently to whonoze via email.

           If Osterman tries to claim he was at home when Shellie called, there would be less than 10 minutes time to spare. More like 5-8 minutes. So, basically no questions to Shellie about what the hell was going on, no stumbling around for clothes/keys, and a very efficient trek to the (still locked?) gated community.

         • An article I read about the scene that night stated the gates were closed to all but foot traffic by 7:31. A lady had to walk in to get to her kids.

           • If true, Osterman only had 10-14 minutes max to show up at the scene by vehicle. So, he probably wasn’t home — which was 12 minutes away (give or take a minute or two). Hmmmm.

         • Marylin,

           That’s correct. The lady actually is Cheryl Brown the mother of witness 14 (Austin McLendon) and witness 15 (S. McLendon). She was at the Walmart when her kids called telling her about the shooting Austin witnessed.

           That makes me think about something actually. I guess that if the gates were closed to car traffic then SZ wouldn’t drive GZ’s Ridgeline to go to Sanford PD. DId she drive the truck home prior to going to Sanford PD?

         • The bank statements released are for Insight Credit Union for Zimmerman account(s). Not M&I Bank.

         • @NLME –

           OMG! Did he get fired already?

           • Well, he’s working GZ’s security detail. I doubt that can just be done on the side.

             But, I have absolutely no confirmation whether Osterman is still employed by Homeland Security or not.

         • That ain’t Shellie. Look at her mugshot.

           Unless she owns two different noses, one convex, one concave, that ain’t her.

           unitron

       • Aussie, sorry, I do not have any more details about her wheels or license plate and I do not see her doing another transaction at that time. But from looking at the vehicle she was in at the ATM at around 13h:00 and the one I can see at 15h:00 I am inclined to believe that Shellie was at or around the bank again at around 15h:19.

         If you notice, the bank videos all have different start and end times and have been clipped. For example the Delivery lane #1 jumps from 13:14 to 18:38. I believe this was done to filter out useless footage and keep what is relevant evidence for the prosecution. Like Tchoupi, I believe that there is some significance to these videos.

         The car in question is seen travelling from lane # 4 to lane # 2. Also the video of Lane 2 ENDS right after the vehicle is seen.

         Lane 4 – 15:19:42.89
         

         Lane 3 – 15:19:44.00
         

         Lane 2 – 15:19:44.29

         View post on imgur.com

         Shellie in her car at ATM at 13H00

         View post on imgur.com

         Maybe these videos will be used to establish timelines for GZ, SZ and MO.
         GZ’s version of the day’s events are that he and Shellie mentored 2 kids, then he made supper for SZ and then headed to Target.

         I would like to know at what time the 2 Kids were over that day to be mentored by them, as he claims. If I am correct Shellie was not home from app. 13h00 to 15h00.

         • Some of the bank video time jump can be explained by the recording being triggered by motion sensors.

           And unless she was wearing a different nose by the time of her mugshot, that ain’t Shellie.

           unitron

175. I was a bit tired of working on the interviews George had. so I’ve decided to switch for a moment and make a compilation of the results of forensics.

     Comments are welcome (as usual)

     Trayvon Martin

     • As usual, you’ve done excellent work with the info known. I hope the next evidence dump has a map and legend of the blood stains. Wonder if we were supposed to figure this out on our own based on the DNA info released?

     • reposting a gltched comment

       question everything trust no one Says:

       July 26, 2012 at 4:16 am

       Great work as always, tchoupi! It’ll be interesting to see where the stains are located; I’m also looking forward to finding out if any of the blood found on TM’s pack of Skittles came from GZ.
       Reply

       July 26, 2012 at 8:00 am

       Thanks but I owe the team here a huge chunk of the observations & ideas I put in figures. So, let say great work all.
       Reply
       Loree Says:

       July 26, 2012 at 4:13 pm

       Love your work Tchoupi!!
       Reply
       CommonSenseForChange Says:

       July 27, 2012 at 5:06 am

       Me, too.

       Reply

       tchoupi.caillou Says:

       July 26, 2012 at 9:37 am

       NMLE, something is wrong again. I replied to QETNO’s post #177 and got it in a new post . I guess QETNO replied to my post #175 and got it in a new post.
       Reply
       “No Longer Mass Emailing” Says:

       July 26, 2012 at 10:07 am

       Tchoupi — Thank you for referencing bcclist on your imgur page!
       Reply
       question everything trust no one Says:

       July 26, 2012 at 11:08 am

       Indeed! Great work, everyone! Also, AGGGH! What happened to the comments? Did we break the comments again, lol. Oy. Thanks, WP!
       Reply

176. I am begining to wonder what medical schools some of you graudated, where you took your residency and what states you are licensed to practice?

     • Whoa now there John W., it’s a blog, Along those lines, do we actually have to be psychologists, criminal investigators or lawyers to make any comments? CommonSenseForChange mentioned earlier there’s a reason for the pseudonym. Not claiming authority, just exercising common sense.

       • Actually…

         OK. First my intentions are not to hurt you CSFC. I had to write it.

         So, actually, when I moved to the US, I realized that people use the term “common sense” as synonymous to “logic”. But, then after some years, I came to the conclusion that “common sense” is more like a way to hide its own ignorance and sometimes stupidity when making statements about something you actually have no grab on.

         What made me realize that? Sarah Palin’s excessive use of the term “common sense”. Then, I just had to look around and see that the punditry in the media loves talking about “common sense” when they want to close an argument they can’t hold for too long.

         Conclusion: John got us again. I feel depressed.

         • @tchoupi –

           “So, actually, when I moved to the US, I realized that people use the term “common sense” as synonymous to “logic”.

           Not offended or hurt. Common sense means only reasoning based on life’s experiences.

           Regarding making statements one would have no grasp of, it boils down to what you’ve been taught to believe that hasn’t been disproved through first-hand experience.

           For example, a very small portion of the old-school minorities consider whites’ devils without the benefit of education or real-life experience where humans white or black or whatever assist and befriend one another in a real situation fashion. On the other hand, you have old-school whites that shirk formal education of any sort and their experiences are based on how well they can “connect” or be accepted by other whites which makes them completely disregard other humans as “worthy”, “intelligent” or “civil”.

           Personally, I’ve been accused of being racist, but I’m not. I just recognize human behaviors of the races I’m exposed to by dealing with them on a daily basis through work, home life and family.

           I didn’t much appreciate Palin’s media handlers co-opting my “common sense” net presence to sell her hate, although I’m not surprised it was done. FWIW, Judge Lester summed it up nicely about how we use our common sense…

           He said he has to rely on the law. I take his statement on common sense to mean that since he CAN’T be an activist from the bench, he merely acknowledged that the law is fracked up and goes against his common sense and all his rulings will be based on the law.

     • We’ll show you ours if you show us yours :))

       • @aussie

         “We’ll show you ours if you show us yours”

         LOL!

       • Graduated from Google, with honors of course.
         Completed my residency @ BccList.
         License to practice in the Lone Star State.

         : ^ )))

         • “Graduated from Google, with honors…”
           You’re in good company. I once had a doctor at one of the best hospitals in this country tell me to drink tonic water for leg cramps because there was quinine in it instead of prescribing quinine tablets. I said, Ok, can you tell me the mechanism? Instead of making an excuse to leave the room and come back with an answer, he just sat right in front of me and said, well I don’t know let’s Google it. That’s what I got for my $250 visit.

           • Ha! That just takes the cake. Still had the Chutzpah to charge you.

         • LOL! Doctors hate that we can google! Currently, my biggest annoyance with Obama is his mandate to keep doctors paid regardless of performance.

           • LOL. Oh by the way thanks for the your help in cleaning up the “Living Room”.

     • I’ve got a PhD in Physics. That technically makes me a Doctor.

       No! It doesn’t work? Not good enough? I feel depressed suddenly.

       • Nope PhD’s aren’t “real” doctors. But it does stand for “Doctor of Philosophy”. So you have a license to philosophize all you want here…..BTW, I have one of those (worthless) PhDs too, and it’s made me depressed a few times over the years 😦

         • Guys, It’s now official: Everything I wrote/write/will write here is philosophy high content.

       • Physics???? Really tchoupi!!!! Oh my. One of the subjects in high school I found most difficult. Needless to stay, I avoided it in college. But it makes sense! 🙂

         Through deductive reasoning, I’ve got tchoupi all figured out! 🙂

     • Or, maybe some commenters have experience in medical offices?

     • Can you clarify why you ask? Don’t want to be presumptuous.

     • Same place we got our degrees in law, surveying, acoustical engineering, pyschology, criminology, forensics, photo analysis, etc….

       Crowd sourcing can another word for mob, or it can be a pooling of talents and resources.

       Sometimes professionals work the day shift and go home, while amateurs slave away burning the midnight oil.

       And sometimes they’re just a bunch of conspiracy nuts.

       Time will tell.

       unitron

177. I am not sure how this will effect GZ case, but just now in Florida, Donald Montanez was found guilty of third degree murder in the shooting death of Glen Rich. Montanez was also found guilty of several other charges releated to the murder. Montanez did use the Stand Your Ground law, stating he was in fear of his life. The jury took two day to come the verdict, Montanez now faces 25 years to life. It is also noted Montanez did not testify on his own behalf.

     On GZ I am hearing rumors, he has gone rogue. O’Mara has been reduced to legal advisior, note that O’Mara website has been quiet for almost week. As to GZ “The real George Zimmerman” he now speaks in english and spainish, I guess he reaching out to Hispanics, but after what GZ said on his My Space I don’t think it will work. Also that interview which has been back tracking to make up for all the mistakes seems to not have worked, donations are all but stopped. The DA has alot of new evidence thanks to the interview. Hannity has been critized for being sofr on GZ and asking leading questions.

     All this work maybe for not, GZ will hang himself.

     • Very different circumstances there, John W. There were a heap of witnesses, for one thing. Montanez already acted illegally, at the very least by brandishing his weapon at people who were arguing that they wanted their towed cars back (and maybe he’d towed them illegally in the first place). In the business he was in (towing legally parked cars for ransom, virtually) he had every right to fear for his life, but he was causing it.

       As for GZ? he’s been rogue for a long time. MOM is only just starting to find out. They have to lie low for a while now anyway, as Shellie’s perjury case is due in court in a few days. That will be an interesting day.

     • He’s not the first to get off on SYG. What do you think motivated Zimmerman to start hollering to Smith (who didn’t question Zimmerman) that Smith overheard Zimmerman telling the paramedics that his killing was in self defense? As life tends to happen, none of the paramedics recall this statement to them. Why do you think the flashlight guy recalls Zimmerman telling he him he had to shoot him? I suspect an attempt to influence people and get them to repeat it.

       Why do you think the FDLE reinterviewed people and showed mostly how the witnesses were questioned about whether or not they went outside? Tell one…

178. @Everyone,

     Hey I just got an email from another blog I follow by a poster name Sandra E Brown. She posted that in GZ NEN call @ 3:22 he tells the dispatcher, his keys are in the truck. I had to hear it with my own ears, and yes he tells the dispatcher or someone with him that his keys are in the truck. I know we have talked about his vehicle lights being on and or off for 15 seconds, and the possibilty of GZ having MO with him. Check it out. What do you think?

     • Oh, how weird. I never noticed that. It’s under the talking of the dispatcher and GZ. Right after he says “you’ll see my truck.” I’m hearing what sounds like a different voice saying “your keys are in the truck.” WHAT?! Are we all going mad?

       • I couldn’t believe I overlooked that. I listened to that damn call so many times. I will be spending my weekend going over that call. Why would he tell the dispatcher his keys are in the truck. Why would he leave his keys in the truck? Was he speaking to someone beside him, and not the dispatcher? Maybe I should book studio time so I can hear this call in a professional setting?

         • I don’t think he is telling the dispatcher. It sounds like someone in the background. Either GZ covering and moving the phone away to say to someone the keys are in the truck or someone to him saying that his keys are in the truck. That’s what I get because it’s not said into the phone to the dispatcher. It’s a mans voice saying it. Why would he be stating to himself the keys are in the truck if he’s in the truck?! Are we just hearing what we want to hear?

         • Also, the keys were found at the scene, no? What is going on hereee?! This case will make me mental before it’s over.

           • I am already mental !
             But it sounds like he is talking to someone else. I am going to find a damn studio where I can hear this call in stereo setting where I can hear the damn grass growing.

         • @qetno –

           I don’t hear it either. It could be there, but I don’t hear it. It could be other NEN dispatch discussion noise if it’s there.

         • @CSFC

           I’m definitely hearing someone talking (at least that’s what it sounds like to me), but they are not talking into the speaker, so it sounds like background noise. It’d be interesting to have an audio expert listen to that part to determine.

       • @3:19 just finishing the word @3:20

         It’s away from the phone. In the background? THEN something that sounds like a click/tap/whatever.

         • Yes 3:19. Did you hear it?

         • I’m definitely hearing something in the background, or at the very least with the phone covered/away from the phone, that sounds like something about the keys being in the truck right at the time I mentioned. Just posting to make it easy on anyone else who wants to take a listen.

           • Thanks for your help with the video. I will be looking a for a studio that will take my crazy request.

     • Below is what I got around the time you mention. No talk about the keys.

       ——————–

       Zimmerman:
       Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past
       the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and
       then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3’04”]
       Tapping noise: [3’09”]

       911 dispatcher:
       Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3‘21“]

       Zimmerman:
       Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3’25”]

       911 dispatcher:
       OK, do you live in the area?

       Zimmerman:
       Yeah, yeah, I live here.

       911 dispatcher:
       OK, what’s your apartment number?

       Tapping noise: [3’34”]

       Zimmerman:
       It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

       911 dispatcher:
       OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

       Zimmerman:
       Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

       911 dispatcher:
       Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …

       Zimmerman:
       Actually, could you have them to call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

       • I listened to it on Axiom. maybe its off a couple of seconds, but I did hear it.

         • I hear it…it is “under” the operator speaking at 3:19 – 3:20 in the video above.

           • Thanks for reviewing the call. I have to work Saturday. I downloaded some software to help clean up the audio. I hope I can figure it out Saturday night to give some more feedback. We need a audio specialist on Bcclist!

     • I’ve actually replayed that a hundred times wondering what he was saying. I don’t hear the hard “K” sound for “keys” in that jumble, but the phrase “by my truck.” at the end of it is more distinct. I had come to the conclusion that he was saying “I’ll meet ’em by my truck.” I also thought that the mumble could be caused by him still whipping his head around looking for TM, causing the phone to sometimes be a little farther from the his face. Couldn’t a sound guy/gal be able to separate out the voices?

       • That would be great if we can get a sound person to break down every sound, word, and time.
         I’ve listened to it 100 times also. I remember awhile back when someone found the Im begging you and get off part. No one heard that for a while unitl someone with an audio background offered that up for debate. Its very hard to try and decipher that call because of the quailty, but I will continue trying.
         : ^ )

         • When I first heard the “i’m begging you” analysis, I didn’t believe it either. Eventually, based on various sound experts opinions, I was able to hear it.

       • He’s not talking to the dispatcher, though. The voice is not into the phone. It is away from the speaker then as soon as he speaks again it is perfectly clear. I also hear in my truck, not by my truck. If he was IN his truck why would he say he’d meet em by his truck if he was in the truck and not planning to leave. I don’t hear it and it doesn’t make sense in my non-exper,t humble opinion. 🙂

         • Bah, I forget he’s out of the car at the point. My apologies. I still don’t hear him saying he’ll meet them by his truck there.

     • Loree: Re: someone else in car (MO, etc) Loree, I read, but have not yet confirmed, that at 2:10 in the NEN call, when the dispatcher asks GZ for the address, another voice in car (not GZ) can be heard saying ” I dont know.” If true, that would tie this together, but I haven’t re-listened to that call yet. Let me know if anyone hears that second voice.

       • Ok. Will do.

       • I remember GZ saying “I don’t know,” but not someone else. At least, it still sounds like GZ’s voice. He says something like, “I don’t know; it’s a cut through.”

179. Has anyone else listened to the police radio transmissions, particularly audios #1 to #18 with Officers Smith (1st on scene), Ayala (2nd), Raimondo (3rd)? Some of what Smith says is hard to understand, and they speak in police code, so please let me know if you can make out exactly what he says.

     http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/police-radio-dispatch/

     I guess I am a little confused and hoping for insight : What I understood from listening to the audio is that Smith states to Ayala that he is on RVC which makes me question Tchoupi’s video arrival for Smith via TTL. I am more inclined to think that Ayala’s car is the one we see arrive on TTL in the clubhouse video.Please note this is not a criticism of Tchoupi’s analysis just would like some clarification. TY all !

     • LeeLee –

       You have to first access TTL in order to access RVC. TTL is the access street from either the front or the back entrance. This is why Zimmerman’s story about not knowing the street he was on and his pretending he had to get an address from RVC is so incredibly unbelievable.

       • LeeLee,

         T. Smith responded first to GZ’s NEN call (mailboxes).
         Then, he learned about the gunshot and was given 1231 TTL (white t-shirt lady). He went there and she saw him while on her 911 call. She basically told dispatcher that it’s not at her house’s front but at the back that he has to go.
         Off T. Smith was then confused. So, he responded to another call from 2831 RVC. The logical route is via the east gate. I believe that he understood the floorplan of the complex only after driving by the south tip of the walkway.

       • Out of curiousity – has anyone listened to his other 911/NEN calls to see if he ever gave the streets? If he mentioned the street name in any other calls we can throw his “i didn’t know the street name” claim out the window and under a bus.

         • Good question.

         • On the calls I listened to, he showed a pattern of NOT providing his info aside from a tel. That is what seemed odd to me that he told the detectives that he thought he gave the NEN his address. Another umprompted lie?

         • I, for one, can’t imagine a wannabee NW’er/cop, who wouldn’t have a street map on one of the walls in his house, possibly with stick pins in it as well.

     • LeeLee my understanding is Smith went down TTL and back up RVC, finally realising at the bottom turn what “at the back of the houses” meant. He ended up parking in RVC where the top path goes across, ironically just at the address GZ obtained but failed to give before hanging up). Ayala is saying where are you, can’t see your car, as he gets into the dog-leg on TTL.

     • Woops! I should have said that those undisputed access points are if accessing the community by car — not on foot patrol.

180. IT IS SPREADING………

     GZ’s father and mother have set up a site asking for donations for themselves.

     http://robertandgladys.com/

     The way that story is written, it looks true, I don’t think it’s a fake site.

     I wonder how Shellile is paying for her perjury lawyers? or is she having to go public defender?

     • aussie, yes, it appears that begging for money via website(s) is the new family business. Maybe this is why GZ prepaid internet by the year- to profit off this on top of all else truly is disgusting, imho. That site is run by “admin”- most likely GZ. Not sure who SZ attorney is; I read SZ is not expected to attend court on 7/31- she can “waive” her appearance and let her attorney enter her plea.So we likely will find out on 7/31 who attorney is.

       • It could be another way for GZ to circumvent MOM website.

         • It is a front for the sometimes defunct therealgeorgezimmerman website. I read on twitter that the parents website was registered on the day of the Aurora shootings. This people are ever so full of class and grace.

           • I read that long history of whatnot on the site, and I was like are you serious? Really are you serious.
             Unbelievable !!!
             The audacity of it all.

         • Totally agree especially since the site is called “Robert & Gladys” while its subtitle states ” My personal website” and not “Our…”

     • As to Shellie and her court date, July 31st, her appearance notice indicted she does not have a lawyer to represent her nor will she be attending. This is her formal arraignment, she or her representative is expected to enter a plea. However if she does not appear nor anyone else for that matter, she could be in alot of trouble.

     • Regarding the http://robertandgladys.com/ website, I do feel bad for GZ’s family for having been thrust into this mess and all of them having to go down with him. But I have to say they’re still a little clueless. Why do they keep repeating the mother’s words asking why GZ had to go to such a dangerous area to mentor kids? I think his answer to her really was “Don’t worry, mama, I’m packed” But seriously, it’d be interesting to know where this “dangerous area” is, and what is the local perception of it?. They make it sound as if he’s going into a war zone. Must be a neighborhood where you really have to watch your back if you don’t “belong” there, like a gated community with a clubhouse.

181. EXTRA! EXTRA! READALLABOUTIT!!

     Click to access State%27s%205th%20Supplemental%20Discovery%207%2025%2012.pdf

     State has released the names of 6 witnesses. We already knew most of them.

     Austin’s address is finally revealed. 2761 RVC. I’m confused by the numbering system but think it’s maybe on the far side of RVC???

     Cynthia Wibker is the HOA lady, I don’t think she was a 911 caller.

     • The HOA lady definitely lives in the corner screened house based on what was heard on the 9-1-1 call and the follow up interviews. The address given was probably the business address for the community’s HOA.

     • Cynthia Wibker, the HOA secretary, seems to live a few doors down from Taaffe on RVC, I think, and was an early defender of Zimmerman, saying he has helped to “solve a lot of crimes”.

       http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/20/nation/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-20120320

       OK, at the risk of fueling another conspiracy theory….wonder if she saw a slow crawling truck behind a leisurely walking/skipping hooded kid that night….or better yet, saw TM and called her trusty crimefightin’ hero GZ? Any takers?

       • Hmmmm! I am begging somebody to leak Zimmerman’s call logs. Yes, I know this is impossible but come on already!

         • LOL. Someone’s impatient! 😛 I feel you. It’s probably going to be at least year til we ever get to know what’s in those call logs and texts! *passes a cold beer* We might as well enjoy our selfs while we wait, haha.

         • hmmm there seems to be a lot of drinking on this site….i likey 🙂

       • Wow! I was just about to post that. I’m so late!

         In the court doc aussie posted above, she’s listed as Witness #42. I wonder if there’s a statement in the doc dumps that matches up with “He once caught a thief and an arrest was made”.

         • “He once caught a thief and an arrest was made” This statement by the HOA lady can only be true if you divide the sentence up and also not take it literally. As in “He once SAW a guy who was wandering around who he thought was about to jump through Taaffe’s open window but didn’t” and then “A few days later, an arrest was made due to the efforts of completely different people, then Georgie stepped in and said ‘Yup’ that’s him that’s the guy walking around looking about!” @unitron, these are not real quotes….

           • And you aren’t the one claiming to be a professional journalist.

             unitron

             • @unitron, you’re right, not a professional journalist. But I don’t exactly type in my basement either (nor tap there….that kinda conjures up a weird image doesn’t it? )

             • You aren’t allowed to use your own basement, that breaks the stereotype.

               : – )

               unitron

         • I think he detained a shoplifter at a store one time and the person was arrested.

           • Thanks princsss6, I just looked that up about the shoplifter. So he brags about it to his HOA lady?
             http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/v-fullstory/2712299/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html

182. Here’s a clue. From DeeDee
     “And…by the sound his voice kinda change… I know he was scared. Voice was getting kind of low.”
     What she is saying is that Trayvon was lowering his voice when he spoke to her. This was to avoid being heard by others. Not sure how well that worked out.
     I love DeeDee’s testimony. The one to de la Rionda is linear. This voice lowering was after the first run, when Serino says Trayvon was hiding. So, he wasn’t lowering his voice when he had run away and thought he lost George. But later Trayvon lowers his voice because he thinks someone is coming closer to him. The timing of this helps tie things together in the missing minutes. George is tapping on his flashlight and thinking the kid is right around him while he’s still on the call to dispatch. Then he asks them to have the police call his cell to find where he is. This could mean, “I’m not going to be by the mailboxes, I’m not going to be in my truck, I’m trying to watch this kid.” You take a flashlight and tap it to go into the dark. I’m thinking the north/south dog walk and the cut throughs off of it are darker than the streets. He’s not looking for an address on the street, he’s looking for TM in the dark!
     He’s done it before going in between and around the buildings. This is not a stretch. It’s one interpretation of what a watch does. For the Zimmerman team, though, some tension arises because Brandi Green’s townhome is by the back entrance. I sincerely believe that George wanted to find Trayvon. (If George stood at the poop station tapping on his flashlight for four minutes, I’ll be a monkey’s uncle.) I don’t think he was prepared to find him, but he couldn’t resist the search.
     I would say that the only house Trayvon felt safe by was Brandi Green’s. All the others were strangers. He ran there and may have been locked out. Serino believes Trayvon hid by John’s house because GZ didn’t see Trayvon running south when he got to the “T”. He could have been in one of the cut-throughs. He was probably able to look north. Wherever Trayvon was, he suspects someone is approaching his position. As he talks to DeeDee he sees the beam of a flashlight and/or hears someone approaching and lowers his voice.

     • @Screamin’ Jay

       “I love DeeDee’s testimony. The one to de la Rionda is linear. This voice lowering was after the first run, when Serino says Trayvon was hiding. So, he wasn’t lowering his voice when he had run away and thought he lost George. But later Trayvon lowers his voice because he thinks someone is coming closer to him.”

       Makes sense to me.

     • That makes a lot of sense…IMO, Trayvon had to have been stationery (sp.?) when he tells DeeDee that GZ is getting closer. That always puzzled me about Trayvon seeing GZ getting closer. This makes sense.

     • it makes me wonder about a few things. George said he wanted to keep an eye on him (one of his versions), so he is wandering around in the dark with a torch. So what exactly was he planning on doing? Once he located his suspect was he just going to stand there in the dark shining a torch on him from a distance….and he thinks his “suspect” would be ok with this how? I can just imagine the creep standing off in the distance watching by torch light and having no idea why this may be seen as threatening. So what did he really think he was going to do if he found this kid out there in the dark? There was bound to be a confrontation, you can’t pretend you were just walking your dog when a) you don’t have a dog, and b) you were just following the guy in your car with your lights on. He was behaving in such a threatening manner, would have karate kicked him in the nuts and hong kong phooey chopped him in the throat because his behaviour was suspicious, creepy, dangerous and wrong.

       • What I see in George is arrested development. Could his past family abuse or other life trauma have kept him a child? This gives him two sides: the charming 5 year old (just estimating) and the vindictive one. Angela Corey calls it “depraved mind”. The effect on neighborhood watch is GZ has no ability to empathize the creepy effect he has on others. Therefore he is brash and free with the goons when they stay on his turf like Trayvon did.

         @Jo:
         “So what exactly was he planning on doing?”
         It is clear from his history of police calls that GZ intends to watch suspects closely. On Feb. 26 I think he was spurred on by the dispatcher asking things like
         Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area?
         Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything, ok?
         Dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?
         Did Osterman say GZ went around a building? That would be Brandi Green’s building. Did Taaffe show GZ way down the center sidewalk? He was going back toward his truck alright, but he was not alone. He was chasing Trayvon. DeeDee tells us that TM felt cornered and moves away. Seems like he was going north. But he doesn’t run full tilt because he is not moving away from the safety of Green’s house.

         “Once he located his suspect was he just going to stand there in the dark shining a torch on him from a distance…?”
         That’s it. Great cross-examination question. He came right up behind Trayvon. Not a word. Now he IS following! Now this a-ho is not going to get away. The words come north in the evidence debris field. I wonder if there are any witnesses along RVC or around Green’s house. Not much there to witness. Happened so quickly and quietly.

         “He was behaving in such a threatening manner, would have karate kicked him in the nuts and hong kong phooey chopped him in the throat . . .”
         Not if he had a gun out. I suspect George hurt his nose on the tree by the “T” during the scuffle.

       • As far as GZ’s hunting skills, they were amiss. Consider that a hunter knows the effect of being discovered by his prey. GZ doesn’t seem to have that kind of reflection, eh? His “prey”, according to him, has nothing to fear, from the discovery that he has a hunter on his trail??? Wasn’t GZ told and advised that this would be the case if he followed someone?

         So that now, for a rather long period of time, GZ knows that TM is aware of his efforts and is trying to avoid him. That means, that if GZ does not pursue TM, TM continues to avoid him. And that means that TM goes home!

         Only by continuing to follow, does GZ interfere with the avoidance process that allows TM to get safely home. In fact, GZ prevents TM from getting home safely, which is all an unarmed, innocent teen, returning from the store with his purchases, wants to do!

         Instead, GZ prevents TM’s safe home, and interrupts it with a deadly gunshot! Probably, only after he has accosted the kid and tried to search and detain him. If he’s the control freak he appears to be, GZ has probably drawn and displayed his weapon, since he thinks TM is armed and he doesn’t want to risk getting shot in the process of searching and/or detaining him. But, upon discovering no gun, only soda, skittles and phone, GZ realizes that he has committed a felony by holding/detaining/confronting TM at gunpoint.

         GZ knows, from his gun club buddies/instruction and from his NW instruction, and from his police interactions and probably from his gun law CC permit instruction, as well as from his own knowledge of law, that this is a serious felony and it will be treated as such by the police responders, the very minute they learn about it!

         GZ is thinking fast and furiously at this point. He knows that the story of his actions will have to be changed dramatically, but his efforts to do so won’t matter much at all, because TM will constantly repeat his story. And that story will be believable because TM has no way to know what it means.
         You can’t construct a negative story about an opponent, if you do not know what elements to use, have the maximum effect to do it.

         Worse yet, GZ knows that, under his own best circumstances, TM is never supposed to be able to figure out, that GZ even has a firearm on him. So, that will stand as confirmatory evidence of TM’s claims against GZ.

         Since TM is the only witness to GZ having pulled the gun, GZ realizes that his only way to cover up his commission of a serious felony — One that threatens to bring down his entire world, erase all his hopes of ever becoming involved in LE and law, and humiliating him with ostracism and another conviction — He realizes that TM has to die tonight, or he’s toast! It is his only way out! In my estimation, that’s exactly where that phraseology comes from, because it was formulated inside his own head. To defend himself psychologically against this phrase reverberating inside his head, he attributes it to TM, which makes it a part of his defense, instead of part of his shame.

183. Here’s a new Stand Your Ground Murderer http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/26/florida-man-kills-door-to-door-salesman-i%E2%80%99ll-kill-anybody-that-steps-on-my-property/

     • Unbelievably disgusting! He first fired at the guy in the shoulder then shot him in the head for “extra effect”.

       http://www.examiner.com/article/florida-man-kills-traveling-steak-salesman-shoots-extra-round-for-effect

       • People have gone fcking crazy. I’d share an experience I had yesterday with my biracial nephew but since it wasn’t on video, it would be just hearsay. Absolutely crazy (but thankfully no shots were fired).

         • Thankfully! They took a guy to the loony bin yesterday that claimed he was the “joker” after being fired. He was said to be wearing a tee-shirt that said “guns don’t kill people, I do.”

           http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/breaking/bs-md-joker-shooting-plot-alleged-20120727,0,3632097.story

           Yes. Gone crazy!

184. @willisnewton, @ aussie especially…
     I’m a bit confused in that you seem to accept tchoupi’s surveillance vid analysis as revealing the path of Zimmerman’s truck, but not the time. I don’t see how you can take one w/o the other. Even with his margin or error figured in, tchoupi has GZ parked on the North side of TTL facing the clubhouse before he calls the police. Yet, I keep seeing posts here suggesting that he is driving around during his police call. If so, tchoupi would need to be like 2 minutes off or more. I don’t see how that’s possible, unless the vehicle he has identified as Ofc. Smith is NOT Smith but some other police car arriving later and Smith snuck in undetected. Also, the overall time window of the videos seems logical: 6:45 – 7:30. If you were going to supoena recordings by time, trying to catch any significant activity, you’d put some padding on both ends, and you’d round to the nearest convenient common unit. That is, you wouldn’t ask for 6:47 – 7:32. Do we have any evidence that the time clock on the videos might be off?

     In any event, lets add this to this list of little stuff we should know but don’t, if discovery is actually discovery. They’re security videos. They have to be timestamped. There has to be a timecode track on the original recording. Why don’t we we (the general public) know what the time is, and why are the journalists covering this story not asking questions about things like this, as well as:
     a. Where exactly was Zimmerman’s truck? (not only the cops know, but some of the witnesses, apparently).
     b. Are the correlations between the 911 callers and the reported 911 log times that I deduced months ago actually correct? Official docs identifying the log times, and matching them to witness numbers have not been released. (Virtually everyone on the web now takes my matches as gospel, leaving out the part where I said the last 5 were only PROBABLE matches…
     c. How did ABC get clear sound-bites of DeeDee’s interview with Crump, when the only recording released, and even acknowledge to exist seems to be from Crump’s personal recorder and is both incomplete and largely unintelligible?
     etc.etc.etc

     • Statement in latest evidence dump, from managing agent, explaining gate CCTV not working and clubhouse ones out by 18 minutes, I forget which direction.

       Tchoupi’s times are all counted back from the first identifiable police lights, which he’s attributing to Smith. Maybe they need recalibrating by the Emergency times, which are very precisely listed on their reports and very brightly visible on the videos.

       Tchoupi and other analysts on other blogs all found the videos were somewhat off from each other, too, maybe 1 to 3 minutes.

       I don’t think the prosecution expected or KNOWS anything to be on those videos, so are not concerned about accuracy.

       Car? call times? the general media seems interested in a quick news flash, not in any investigation of their own. A (supposed) Miami Herald reporter asked to interview some of us but never returned to get answers or make arrangements.

       Re a clear recording: either ABC has some wonderful sound technicians, or their opponent networks had better start digging to embarras them.

       As newer people turn up, a lot of old stuiff is being rehashed, too. Some things that have been settled will need to be written up into a definitive answer so they can be set aside.

       Leatherman blog has been asking about your whereabouts. Many there are still stuck on points like circling the car (debunked in a Serino interview) and the “looking for address” issue.

       • Aussie, Whonoze,

         I’d be happy to get criticisms and remarks concerning the work I’ve posted. It can only make it better. I know Whonoze had a rather close look to it and I thanks you for that.
         I have certainly made some mistakes. I’m like everybody here. I have a family life, a professional life and a bed time. So, for that work, I really have to be organize to pull out the time to watch the vids. This is why I’ve decided to log the time of light events which allowed finding patterns. Nevertheless, I’m also human meaning I preconceive before justifying. So, being challenged is the best way for me make it right.
         Back to the how to set the clock on the videos…
         —
         There are two events of interest: 1) LEO T. Smith arrival & 2) SFD arrival.
         None of the two events can escape the clubhouse videos: Police car & Emergency vehicles have lights in excess.
         —
         LEO T. Smith logged his time of arrival at 19:17:11. He was responding to GZ’s call and was headed to the mailboxes. When he arrived he learned about the gunshot and responded to 1231 TTL before responding to 2831 RVC. Wit 03 (1231 TTL) was on the phone with 911 dispatcher when she saw police (19:17:47) and said that the officer has to go behind her house.
         ASSUMPTION #1: The police officer wit #03 saw was T. Smith.
         From assumption #1 I can conclude 2 things: 1) T. Smith arrival log (19:17:11) was made at the mailboxes or the gate, & 2) T. Smith route was north gate -> TTL -> mailboxes -> 1231 TTL -> east gate -> RVC -> 2831 RVC.
         So, I know what route T. Smith took and at what time. Two cameras caught what is happening on TTL by the pool. They are the the East Pool & East Pool Hall cameras. Unless T. Smith was riding a horse, the lights of his car must be caught on camera and must have the pattern of a car driving from the north gate toward the east gate.
         ASSUMPTION #2: T. Smith arrival was caught on the EP & EPH videos.
         There aren’t so many cars caught driving on TTL toward the east gate. The one I caught can be seen on the EP video @ 10:33, 14:11, 19:03, 19:31, 22:15, 31:10, 37:51, 38:58, 39:09, 41:14, 42:22 & 44:40. So, one of these cars is T. Smith’s and can set the time of the videos.
         ASSUMPTION #3 The large traffic increase visible in the Traffic Histogram chart is caused by police & emergency.
         Assumption #4 T. Smith car comes early in the largest traffic increase shown in the traffic histogram.
         The large traffic jump starts at the 30th minute (29:00-29:59). The two 1st cars of the traffic bump seen on TTL headed to the east gate are 31:10 & 37:51. The last car before the traffic bump seen on TTL headed to the east gate is at 22:15. So, the only options are 22:15, 31:10 & 37:51.
         ASSUMPTION #5 Emergency is the vehicle with the scanning blue light seen on many videos.
         It arrives at the gate (Game Room video) at 39:41 and passes the gate @ 39:54. Emergency (R38) arrivals on scene is at 19:27:26. This is about 10min after T. Smith arrival at the mailboxes. So, T. Smith car can’t be the ones seen on the EP video at 22:15 & 37:51. Another way of stating it is that T. Smith vehicle is the one at 31:10
         Therefore, 31:10 on the EP videos is ~19:17:11 real time.
         Conclusion: 7:17pm is about at the 31:00 which is the line between the 31st & the 32nd minute on the Traffic Histogram. THIS IS VERY PRECISE.
         —
         If the time stamp is correct. Emergency arrived at the north gate at 19:25:41 and passed the gate at 19:25:54. This is 1m32sec before being on scene. It seems long, I have to admit.
         —
         I don’t know if T. Smith arrival was logged at the mailboxes (EPH @ 31:06) or at the gate (GR @ 30:54). So, I have to consider a margin of ~30sec (actually 12sec) meaning that 7:17pm may be right in the middle of the 31st minute in the Traffic Histogram.
         —
         Finally, I just noticed an error my chart. On the traffic histogram, the time stamps 6:55, 7:05, 7:15 & 7:25 are right but unfortunately the time stamp at 6:45 is actually 6:46. So, the videos are from 6:46 to 7:31. I’ll fix the chart asap.

       • “A (supposed) Miami Herald reporter asked to interview some of us but never returned to get answers or make arrangements.”

         She’s for real. I talked to her yesterday. Same voice you can hear in some of the press conferences. She said she’d talked to several others from this forum already. Maybe didn’t contact you aussie because of the time zone and inetrnational call issues…

         • She contacted me too a couple of days ago.

185. More fuel for the conspiracy theory….Listen to GZ’s NEN call (see QETNO’s post of the call in #178 with the sound all the way up. In GZ’s NEN call,
     at 2:07, GZ says “sh*t, he’s running”
     Dispatcher “he’s running? which way is he running?”
     Then you hear a door opening, the car chiming
     Then a thump. This COULD be a door slamming shut but it’s fainter. Is that the passenger door shutting or GZ stepping down?
     Then GZ says, “down towards the, uh, other entrance of the neighborhood.”
     Alternatively (here’s where my imagination is getting the better of me) do you hear a faint car door slamming sound in the background behind his words ‘other entrance’
     Then you hear him slamming his door and that sound is louder.

     I’m feeling a little crazy here, I need to go do something useful like the dishes…

     • There’s a rash today of people hearing “other” voices and sounds on the NEN tape. They can hear someone saying “your keys are in the truck” and other stuff.

       Any day now we’ll find that playing it backwards at a certain speed will reveal Elvis and MJ singing a duet version of Queen’s well known song
       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

       • It’s because without a new evidence dump, we’re running out of things to talk about. It’s either go grasping at straws or resort to GZ character bashing for the sake of doing so. I’m guilty of the latter too. BTW, I was surprised that the conversation about the plastic bag went on as long as it did.

         • hahaha the bloody plastic bag lol

     • NOTICE TO NLME =====================

       This is the LAST WORKING REPLY BOX=============

       trying to answer anything further down results in their slotting in as new comments.

       This is also what happened last time. Pull out all the ones below here and it will be okay again (for a while). ======================

       I’ve taken copies of everything below and can repost them in sensible order if you like, once you’ve closed up the black hole.
       ==================================================

     • @So Interesting

       I’ll go take a listen to the call again.

       Now, does anyone remember from way back that some of the witnesses thought they heard two gunshots? Didn’t the police say they determined one of the noises was a car door slamming? Does anyone remember this info?

       • One woman witness thought two shots. In her latest interview she said she heard a shot after just about every second sentence. Hard to say if it was from shock, still not believing it, but the impression was that there was a shot every 35.6 seconds for about 5 minutes, including after the police arrived. Nerves.

         Police determined it was a DOOR, not a car door. Sliding doors on all the patios there. They slide quite silently (while they’re new) but need to be banged a bit firmly to get the lock to latch into place.

         Anyway there was only one bullet hole, and one shell casing found. IF anyone found holes in their walls since I am sure they’d have told the cops about it.

         Too much conspiracy in the air these past few days. This case is hard enough to get straight with KNOWN FACTS without dragging all sorts of imaginary stuff in.

         • Seriously. It was a simple question. No need for a four paragraph response to answer “it was a door, but not a car door.” Damn.

         • sorry qetno, just came off a session at one of those blogs still stuck in TM had blood on his knuckles mode, so I was still in spell-it-out mode.

           • “…just came off a session at one of those blogs still stuck in TM had blood on his knuckles mode…”

             I feel ya, brother!

             unitron

         • @aussie

           “…just came off a session at one of those blogs still stuck in TM had blood on his knuckles mode, so I was still in spell-it-out mode.”

           I’m still seeing the misinformation on both sides, as well. I understand the frustration there.

           Wasn’t trying to start a conspiracy or spread misinformation. 🙂 So Interesting’s comments/questions just made me think of that; couldn’t remember if it was said to be a car door, sliding door, front door, etc. Thanks for confirming what it was said to be.

           It really doesn’t matter what we think we hear in the tapes, but no harm in giving it brief discussion, though maybe would be helpful to head posts by stating things as questions, comments, speculation, or conspiracy *NOT* to be confused with FACT.

           • The prosecutors won’t leave the jury with open ended theories to consider, it’s just to dangerous. So, while we don’t have a jury to consider, other than our fellow posters, we are free to forward and develop any such theories that the evidence we have suggests. By doing so, we create a frame of reference, into which other evidence might fall, rather than simply be dismissed as being of no consequence, since it neither fits nor suggest an indication of anything we can think of at that point in time.

             If we find evidence that supports a theory once posed, and if we, or the prosecutor finds it is, or can be confirmed, then that may very likely become part of the case. Depending on whether or not it actually serves to prove the case the prosecutor has decided to make. Some things, even if proven, are merely peripheral and still will not be used, because they simply expand or repeat the main themes. The pressure, in a trial by jury is always to simplify as much as possible, so redundant evidence/theories etc., are set aside, unless reinforcement is critically necessary.

       • I thought they were talking about the sliding glass door slamming just before the shot. Hadn’t heard the car door shutting theory before.

         • @CSFC, my comment just made QETNO think about the previously discussed door slamming before the shot. My theory about the passenger door was born purely out of my imagination…. I was testing a hypothesis. If I sat down and tried to listen for evidence of such and such, in this case for a partner in crime, would I hear it? I set myself up to do so. Almost made myself believe it…had a good night sleep…I still hear the sound but I’m not convinced it’s the passenger car door anymore. Next time, I’ll try and keep my mental experiments to myself……

186. ok================
     am posting this as a new comment just below princss6’s “LOL – I can’t wait for the trace evidence ”

     let’s see where it ends up

     =================NLME I’ve copied in some of the older glitched posts into their correct positions. ========= if you take out everything from my marker=============further up========== down to princss6, it should be ok again. I have copies to repost of the remaining missing ones.

187. aussie Says:

     July 26, 2012 at 5:05 pm

     ok trying again
     @tchoupi re the stains analysed.

     on p.211 in second Dump the gunshot residue people account for holes cut in the shirts by the Biologist, who has first go at them (but didn’t record the places in his report).

     ” ME8 (Trayvon’s sweatshirt) Cuttings A – E on the front lower half of the sweatshirt are samples taken by the Biologist”. So all these are from the same area. They came out 2 for Trayvon, 2 for George and possibly 1 other, and 1 blank (not blood).

     “ME12 (Trayvon’s hoodie) Cuttings A – C done by Biologist. These are on front-centre near lower hem, right sleeve at elbow, and right mid-back near the side seam.”. Doesn’t say but we can assume (?) the descriptions are in alpha order. These turned out Trayvon, not-blood, and blood but no DNA result.

     I think they are going too fancy and modern here, looking for DNA out of tiny samples. They should just do the blood type. DNA is useful for identifying someone out of 2 million people. In this case it’s a matter of ” which of these two?” and for that, blood type would be sufficient.

     In any case, the whole story suffers from not enough blood.
     * GZ getting no chest blood from TM on him is okay…most of it would be going into the chest cavity. The only external blood initially would be from the injured chest muscles, and that would be soaked up by the clothes.
     * Trayvon not gettting GZ blood on his hands? not surprising, seeing we know GZ’s nose was not gushing during the broken-nose-being-suffocated incident. ODD THOUGH that there was no GZ DNA on TM’s hands, from nose/mouth contact during this.
     * No GZ blood on Trayvon, apart from 2 tiny spots, if GZ was bleeding all over the place. Especially as he was seen handling the body after the shot, and also seen with (up to 45%) blood on his head after the shot AND blood on his hands and arms. If this bleeding was before his handling the body there should be blood on TM’s clothing.

     If the fight was mostly wrestling, most if not all the contacts would have been hands on clothing. They only looked at STAINS. There might be plenty of dead cells from one person on the other’s clothing, but spread out all over the place, they’d not know where to look or how to find it.

     (It’s only on CSI they manage to get DNA from a single epithelial found in the lipstick on a cigarette butt. (But in the next episode they couldn’t get DNA in a rape case because the guy was shooting blanks.

     I hate that show, it is so often so wrong. eg they get a video with resolution so low that a car licence plate is on 2 pixels, yet manage to blow it up to get all the numbers off it, which the vid never recorded in the first place. And every suspect always worked in a job where their fingerprints had to be recorded, how convenient. hahaha.).
     Reply

     July 26, 2012 at 5:15 pm

     This is great Aussie. Amazing & Impressive.

     Hum… Are you a medical doctor?

     Reply

     CommonSenseForChange Says:

     July 26, 2012 at 6:39 pm

     @aussie –

     “* Especially as he was seen handling the body after the shot, and also seen with (up to 45%) blood on his head after the shot AND blood on his hands and arms. If this bleeding was before his handling the body there should be blood on TM’s clothing.”

     BINGO! That’s 100% why I think Zimmerman’s story is impossible.

     Zimmerman’s story. IF Zimmerman’s story is to be believed, he went down on one punch and if his later revised story is to be believed he fell forward/sideways and his head was smashed into the concrete before all the so-called MMA punches went down and while Zimmerman was in the grass.

     HOW does the already bloodied head Trayvon Martin was grabbing after the bleeding had to have already started NOT end up with Zimmerman’s DNA?

     It could not have happened. The fact that the blood was moving forward from a top of the head cut (not back of the head) further proves Trayvon Martin’s hands would have had to be attached to George Zimmerman’s head where it was bleeding if the cut to the back of the head occurred before the shot.

     Zimmerman’s account of what happened is unbelievable.
     Reply

     John W. Says:

     July 26, 2012 at 11:16 pm

     I do believe one of the witnesses did say GZ searched TM…
     Reply

     ==================
     aussie Says:

     July 27, 2012 at 3:40 am

     OKAY NOW the SKITTLES were recorded as being found in a pocket. At the 7-11 he is seen putting the skittles into his pants pocket??? side pocket of hoodie? Skittles found in pocket.

     People here are saying Skittles had blood on it. Well even in hoodie pocket they’d not get blood soak through to inside of a pocket.

     But Skittles was NOT TESTED, or it if was they’ve not released it.

     OK so whose blood??? if the pocket was not soaked through, WHOSE BLOOD? how would they get blood on them then end up back in the pocket again?

     INVESTIGATORS WAKE UP PLEASE.

     1) check the Skittles for blood, forget about DNA just go for blood type

     2) ditto the phone headset

     3) check INSIDE of TM’s PANTS POCKETS for smears of blood. Y’all heard of luminol, right?

     4) while you have the can in your hands, spray the arms and back of the hoodie, too. You’re looking for handprints. Not done with wet dripping blood that leaves spots. Just the tiniest surface transfer of 90% dried blood.

     When you got all that, we’ll explain it to you.

     Everyone on this blog already knows.

     Reply

     princss6 Says:

     July 27, 2012 at 9:20 am

     LOL – I can’t wait for the trace evidence reports to be released. Oh yeah and the videocam’s from police cars…and phone records…please Santa before Christmas! 🙂

     • Aussie — Thank you again! I’ve deleted the buggy comments — which are copied and pasted above — and hopefully the commenting system works (for the time being). I’m vacationing this weekend with limited access to the blog so if it breaks again, the fix won’t occur until early next week.

188. I’ve found that cool online file hosting service so we can share files: kiwi6.com

     I’ve just posted the slice of GZ’s NEN call between 3:16 & 3:22 when someone ushers something on the background.
     Many of us hear something about keys in GZ’s truck. I finally can hear something like “my keys are …”. It sounds to me that it is George’s voice.

     http://kiwi6.com/file/ffz9p11i3f

     • 1) He is out of the truck at this point.
       2) we never heard anyone else running with him
       3) “someone in the background” is in the background vis a vis the dispatcher, therefore is George. Sure sounds like him the moment the dispatcher stops.

       Is it full moon somewhere this weekend?

       Or are people just taking a break from the hard yakka of looking at evidence that is actually there?

       ==========
       Nice find, that site, looks like an imgur for non-image files. Thanks, tchoupi, I think I’ll keep this one.

       • @aussie, full moon? Maybe. But its interesting to me to explore what people will see/hear based on their pre-conceived notions or what has been suggested to them. Remember the debate over “f***ing _____”? It’s fascinating that people are hearing completely different things on this one.
         Respectfully, what exactly is “evidence that’s actually there”? Seems like 90% of the “evidence” in this case comes from people filling in the gaps……

         • I knew by posting information about hearing something about keys, that wasn’t debated before would probably get eye rolls. But I’m glad I did. The credit does go to Sandra Graham who posted it on another blog. All I did was listen again to the call and made my own determination. It does give us something else to digest in this case.

         • I think the truth will come from filling in the gaps. But the gaps have to be between real things, really heard, really seen, really tested in a lab.

           It is interesting what people “hear” once they’ve been told what to hear and where. Doesn’t mean that is actually there to be heard. I have a small fan heater (it’s winter here now) the humming of which plays Amazing Grace, Take Me Home Country Road (orchestral) or Ring of Fire (4-man choir in distant background) consistently. Drives me mad, it’s the only 3 tunes it knows.

           A while back people were seeing Trayvon spend 15 minutes on the lounge chairs by the clubhouse pool. b A few days ago I consistently “saw” a plastic bag where there was only a sprinkler cover. A few month back a Navy jet crashed onto an apartment group in Virginia Beach. I just saw a mess. People who knew those planes saw what model it was and which engine had been in what mode. Someone “saw” the wing come off which was only the canopy cover.

           Two witnesses are still certain they saw white shirts.

           Our senses deceive us all the time.

       • I think it’s real clear, actually. It’s GZ, continuing his description of the Ridgline’s location to operator Sean, under Sean’s interruption. “You’ll see my truck — the keys are in the ignition.”

         So this is very interesting indeed. He’s offering the keys in the ignition as a means of identifying the truck. This would makes sense since he probably saw his was not the only big white truck parked on TTL, the ‘truck on the curve’ having been there as well.

         Again, during the NEN call GZ has very little reason to be lying about things. He could be hiding the fact he was ‘tipped.’ He doesn’t explain the reason he suddenly says “actually can you have them call me,” but maybe there isn’t one. Maybe he changed his mind for some reason other than seeing something.

         So it’s probably true that he left the keys in the ignition, and that’s why the chime went off when he opened the door, etc.

         Which poses a couple questions…

         If the key found at the scene was for the Ridgeline, does that mean GZ actually did go back to his truck and fetch the key for some reason? Seems doubtful. Apparently the Zimerman’s other vehicle (presumably used most often by Shelie) is also a Honda, and GZ could have had a key for that for some reason. Or it’s an extra key. The key found at the scene is just one key, right? Who keeps their main car key on a separate ring from their house key, keys they need at work, etc.?

         More pertinently perhaps, if GZ is giving this kind of detail to describe the truck, he has to be considering that the police may arrive before he gets back to the truck. Why would an officer check for the keys in the ignition to see that he’s in the right spot, unless GZ himself is not there? This is way before the point where he changes his mind and asks them to call. Now, if GZ had been where he says he was at this point, somewhere on the East West sidewalk, his truck would have been in his sightline, He would have been 30-60 seconds away from it, could easily have seen an Officer approach jog up and get his attention. Not that people are always logical, (that is, GZ could have been worried about the Ofc, arriving and not being able to ID the truck needlessly, not thinking about how close he was). But if there there was logic behind that instruction, it suggests that GZ was a lot farther from the truck at this point than he says he was. Like maybe he had ran part of the way South down the sidewalk, before giving up (“he ran”) and maybe continued walking South more leisurely, just checking for any sign of the “asshole”.

         Again, GZ doesn’t lie about his position during the NEN call, because Sean never asks him where he is exactly while he’s on foot, and GZ never tells him. Not that I imagine he would be hiding anything here, just doesn’t think to say anything about it. Which leaves us with the only spatial descriptors in the NEN call being “Q: Which way is he running? Z: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood…. Q: Are you following him? Z: Yeah.” So even though it now seems likely GZ actually said “Yeah” while he was moving East on the sidewalk and did not have Trayvon in sight at that exact moment, he knew Trayvon had headed South and he was intending to follow him in that direction. Which we know he did, running for at least an additional 10 seconds before saying “He ran.”

         So I’m still where I was months ago, not able to see how both TM and GZ could have been anywhere but well South of the shooting at the end of GZ call, and having no clear idea of how they got back near the top of the ‘T’.

         • I find it implausible that GZ would have left his keys in his truck if he was paranoid enough to believe he was following a teenage burglar. Especially since the keys were found at the scene.

           • why would he offer up “the keys are in the truck/ignition” but not be willing to give the address because someone might overhear? Just doesnt seem reasonable.

             • “The keys are in the ignition”, sounds to me like a foil. Made, to be prepared in case the police get the truck before it can be taken away. If the keys are found out of the truck then, it’s obvious that someone else went into the truck, so any evidence found there, can be claimed compromised.

               Then he’d simply take the keys and drops them at the “T”. If it all comes to nothing, he can simply retrieve them and go. If something does happen, and the truck is grabbed by the police, then he can say he left the keys in the ignition, and leave it to them to puzzle over.

     • tchoupi: I am grateful for your post, as I was starting to think I was losing my mind. I listened to that part of the call about 50 times last night. I do not have super or extraordinary hearing, but i used to be a studio musician who spent many hours under headphones listening to detail-so I am not completely untrained. To my ear it sounds like he is saying: my (or, the) keys are on the seat. I wish it was louder, but the point is that GZ appears to be having an “off the record” secondary conversation with someone besides the NEN dispatcher. This is shortly after the “f*king *oons” comment- also spoken quietly, as if to keep the dispatcher from hearing his conversation.I know there are equalizers and limiters that can be applied to better discern what is on the tape. Maybe it’s not so important to figure out what he is saying, but most important to prompt authorities to analyze this further.

     • I have done some more work on the tape.
       It seems to me GZ is talking about his keys but I can’t tell more than that.
       If his keys are in his car 4 min before the gunshot and that we find the keys on the ground 2min after then George will have to make some explaining. But at this point I have a hard time to understand what he ushers.

       There are the links:

       Original cut…
       [audio src="http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/ffz9p11i3f/george_zimmerman_call_to_police_3m16s_3m22s.mp3" /]

       Adding some background noise filtering…
       [audio src="http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/pre6uc081n/george_zimmerman_call_to_police_3m16s_3m22s_filternoise.mp3" /]

       Adding some GZ’s voice isolation…
       [audio src="http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/53403jdu34/george_zimmerman_call_to_police_3m16s_3m22s_filternoise_isolategzs.mp3" /]

       • “You’ll see my truck…”

         I’m not 100% sure what he says but that was my first take.

       • Even on the enhanced versions, I hear only an echo and it sounds like it’s on Sean’s end to me.

     • Thanks tchoupi. It’s clearly GZ talking there, but I swear I still hear “by my truck”. Let me exert my power of suggestion here… It sounds like 6-7 syllables altogether. If I didn’t know better it sounds like “which wonna you by my truck” as in “which one of you by my truck”. Of course that’s crazy and would suggest now he’s talking to two other people, asking who’s parked next to him, HA!, it also sounds like “which one chore by my truck” in his lazy speak translated as “which once you’re by my truck”. That’s more logical as he was still giving directions.

       • the “one chore” sound…. (from your description, I didn’t hear it) … just on the ON CH or EYE sound – hONda riCHlEYEne
         which he claimed in the walkthrough he told the dispatcher. “you’ll see honda ridgeline my truck”.

     • Thanks for double checking that!!

     • File not found. This one worked, though.

       [audio src="http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/ffz9p11i3f/george_zimmerman_call_to_police_3m16s_3m22s.mp3" /]

       I still don’t hear it. The only odd thing I hear sounds like some sort of echoey background noise of maybe something going on in the dispatch center.

189. Latest news : Shellie through her new attorney Kelly Sims files written not guilty plea to perjury. Waives her appearance in court.

190. Shellie through her new attorney Kelly Sims files written not guilty plea to perjury. Waives her appearance in court.

191. Goals and Strategies

     at “He’s running” Trayvon’s main goal is: to get to safety. GZ’s “Toward the back entrance” would mean south. DD said he ran for the back because that’s easier. By “back” I think she means back door. Is Brandi Green’s back door just a sliding glass door? The townhomes are not all alike. By “easier” I think she means faster to get there. But how do we know TTL, dog walk, or RVC? We can eliminate RVC for Trayvon because that would take him to the front door. I also think we can eliminate running all the way south on TTL because that would go past the house and take longer than necessary. I believe he would run down the center sidewalk or dog walk for several reasons. It’s a much-used path. The darkness would conceal visually. Best way to lose GZ. Lead’s directly to Brandi Green’s back door. The question becomes “Which cut-through did Trayvon use to get from TTL to the center sidewalk?” The best strategy for Trayvon to get his goal would be to run toward the “T” but cut around close behind W11’s house and straight back to Green’s. This is the fastest way to get out of GZ’s line of sight.

     at “He’s running” George’s main goal is: to keep track of Trayvon. As he approaches the “T” he looks south to see how far Trayvon is. He sees Trayvon way down there. His plan A apparently was to follow Trayvon keeping visual contact. But dispatch discourages this. So, GZ’s strategy becomes to continue on to RVC. Because of the head start Trayvon is almost home. George hurries on to RVC to see Trayvon run out of The Retreat. Note: not to get an address.
     Now for The Real George Zimmerman.
     This vantage point, or anywhere along RVC, monitors the back gate. From this point GZ knows that Trayvon is still in The Retreat. And he knows about where the kid is, near the south end of TTL. GZ goes berserk with action. He honestly does not believe he is following Trayvon. And technically, he’s not using the same path with Trayvon in view (plan A). He now goes south to re-establish visual. This is not illegal. It’s just not necessary in this case and it’s never wise. As he comes to each cut-through he taps on his flashlight to check for Trayvon. I need to check the distance from his truck and time required to arrive at each cut-through on RVC to time out the tapping sounds in the NEN call.
     GZ is on his way to block Trayvon from getting out the back gate. He gets to TTL and no TM there. So, he starts up the N/S sidewalk going toward where he last saw TM running. There he is!

     In this hypothesis it is not necessary for George to see Trayvon in the dark as lighting might not have been sufficient for that. I want to add that GZ is not always the bumbling, ignorant fool he makes himself out to be. On this night he was an experienced, skilled watchman displaying sharp tracking instincts. He was aggressive, relentless, efficient, and quick to react. Unfortunately for poor Trayvon, GZ was also armed and dangerous.

     • “I want to add that GZ is not always the bumbling, ignorant fool he makes himself out to be.”

       Has anybody noted that most of Zimmerman’s bumbling was due to multi-tasking? Meaning, whenever the dispatcher was talking but something was happening (like Trayvon leaving the clubhouse or starting to “skip” away), Zimmerman would interrupt and respond with something horribly uncoordinated. At other times, like when Trayvon was just walking or out of sight, he was spot-on.

       • “Has anybody noted that most of Zimmerman’s bumbling was due to multi-tasking?”

         Yes. I think you know my thoughts on this… but since it’s unfounded…

     • “This vantage point, or anywhere along RVC, monitors the back gate. ” Thanks, Screamin’ Jay, for offering something I had not thought of (and perhaps others as well): an actual motive for GZ to continue East down the sidewalk to RVC. This opens up a whole new set of plausible scenarios.

       If GZ did go to RVC, we can be reasonably sure he didn’t just turn around and head back for his truck, as he would have reached it well before the earliest conceivable start of the confrontation.

       But if he was expecting the “asshole” to head for the back gate, the logical thing for GZ to do is to head South down RVC, toward the gate. RVC is 90-120 yds from where GZ may have left his truck. During the 32 seconds GZ is running, he could have covered between 90-225 yards, depending on his pace. Say he on the lower end of that spectrum, and we could easily hypothesize that GZ runs to RVC, turns the corner South takes a few more strides, and stops because he doesn’t see Trayvon and he’s winded.

       The time at this point is 7:12;12. The NEN call continues for another 1;26. What’s GZ doing during that time? Well, if he thinks TM’s destination is the back gate, he just might walk South on RVC toward that gate. This would explain two things in his call: 1) not wanting to give his address to Sean since “I don’t know where this kid is at.” 2) changing his mind about meeting the officers at the mailboxes, because he simply realizes he is now too far away to get back there.

       It’s about 150 yards from the East end of the sidewalk on RVC to the SouthEast intersection of RVC and TTL by the ‘back” (East) gate. At a normal walking pace of 3 yards/sec., GZ could have covered 258 yards between the time he says “He ran.” and the end of the call. So he would have had plenty of time to work his way down RVC, slowing to check the spaces between the buildings or possibly even walking into them, to see if if he could spot the “kid”.

       Once GZ reaches the agreement with Sean to have the arriving officers call him, he is free to go wherever he wants without worrying about being at a specific place at a specific time, so he ends the NEN call. Say he’s now by the vicinity of the back gate. No sign of the “kid.” He last saw the kid heading South on the sidewalk, so he thinks, ‘maybe the asshole is hiding along the sidewalk somewhere’. So he walks West on TTL, turns up the sidewalk… and there’s TM near the backdoor of the Green townhome.

       Maybe TM went directly there, found the door locked, found himself without a key, and was trying to get Chad Green’s attention. Or, more likely IMHO, maybe TM hid for a minute or so at some intermediate point along the sidewalk before concluding “the man” was gone and heading the rest of the way home.

       Either way, we would wind up with what seems to be a necessary condition for a conflict between GZ and TM that did NOT happen as GZ describes, that is by TM approaching GZ from the South near the T and initiating the confrontation. Instead, we have GZ re-appearing to TM from the South, leading TM to turn around and go North go get away. Leading to a possible pursuit going South to North on the sidewalk as reported by W2.

       Especially if Trayvon is again “walking fast” as DeeDee reported, following the instruction not to run, because running makes you look guilty of something, the trip back up the sidewalk is a pretty good fit for the time elapsed between the end of the NEN call, and the assumed start time of the confrontation. With Trayvon chosing not to run, GZ could have closed the gap, and finally gotten close enough to Trayvon at the top of the T that Trayvon turned to confront him: “Why are you following me?”

       In this scenario, Trayvon is to the North facing GZ who is approaching from the South. If GZ gets in Trayvon’s face, Trayvon pushes him away, GZ grabs/pushes back, and Trayvon tosses his one punch at GZ’s nose, then GZ would have staggered back in the direction of John’s patio, perhaps maintaining a grasp on TM hoodie, losing balance and pulling them both to the ground. Or maybe it was just a grab-ass dance all the way, and the punch to the nose came once they were on the ground, and resulted in GZ immediately going for his gun. Or maybe the details were something else. But it still seems to make more sense than anything GZ has put forward, IMHO.

       • “…the logical thing for GZ to do is…”

         remain in his truck and take advantage of its speed, headlights, and rainproof-ness.

         He could have gotten to the back entrance well before Martin, pausing along the way to shine his headlights north up the sidewalk behind the houses and then proceeded to RVC and aim his headlights north up it, and then if he didn’t see Martin either time, back off and park right by the back entrance and wait for him to appear while he waits for the police.

         And if he still desperately needed that address at the top of RVC, he could have driven up there real quick, got it, and driven back to the rear gate.

         But of all of which George has been accused, being logical never seems to find its way into the mix.

         unitron

         • If we don’t continue to give GZ the dubious benefit of “hero complex” all that we’re left with is “premeditated murder”. The only way we can keep the hero complex going, is to refuse to acknowledge that GZ has any commonsense at all.

         • unitron –

           I doubt you can shoot people from the truck and then claim SYG while “not follwoing” but just going in the same general direction. Can you? SYG is already being used by criminals. If they can stay in their ridgeline honda “schruck” to shoot, it would give drive-bys a whole new meaning.

           OTOH, why is zimmerman slurring his words on the call to dispatch? He’s ordinarily very articulate. Why are his words on the NEN sounding slurred?

           • @CSFC,
             Kinda related, remember the guy while in his car/truck shot an unarmed autistic man (Daniel Adkins) at a taco bell drive thru on April 3rd? Claimed self-defense and was not charged for the longest time. He was arrested Jul 14 for unrelated weapons charges. IT was only after then that they decide to charge him with 2nd degree murder for the taco bell shooting, although they claimed to have been investigating it all along. These laws seem kinda messed up when it makes the police not arrest someone instead of letting the court decide whether their self-defense claim is justified.

             http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981486689

             http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/19132048/2012/07/27/man-indicted-in-taco-bell-shooting

           • I don’t hear it as slurring, exactly, but there’s a “petulant, sing-song-y, goes up in pitch at the end of sentences and sounds like a question even when it’s not” quality that you otherwise hear in the speech of younger children (and dopers), and the next day at the re-enactment he’s almost “Mr. Professional Law Enforcement Guy giving authoritative testimony” at times, like he was one of their colleagues.

             Quite a contrast.

             If Zimmerman had decided to follow to see where Martin went, and then make his call when he had something more substantial to report, only to have events preclude that, so that it turned out there was no non-911 call from that evening, it would certainly put a much different spin on things.

         • @Lonnie –

           It is looking more like premeditated murder here, too. Perhaps the prosecutor chose murder2 because that’s all that could be proved.

           • I think M2 makes more sense as a charge, since it not only allows to bypass grand jury, but it also does not preclude a jury from finding M1, if they feel it’s warranted.

             I don’t think that at the time they were ready to charge, or rather, needed to charge, public pressure being what it was, they had a firm enough theory of guilt and enough evidence to go for a grand jury. Let alone the time, with a howling public and a deeply concerned Governor breathing smoke.

             The impressions I’m getting in the “back stories” is that GZ left home trying to conceal the fact that he was going out on the prowl again with his fire arm.
             He covers this up with a feigned trip to the store.

             So far so good, nothing seems premeditated there!

             But then we get to the spotting: GZ is driving down RVC, he’s coming up on a right turning road in the rain. With wipers and headlights on, and his drivers side window speckled with rain drops, he needs to turn his head 85 to 90 degrees to the left, to see TM where he says he first saw him. Meanwhile he’d be going by this ~10 foot wide cut through at about 44 ft/sec. and in desperate need to keep his eyes on the right bending road at that time, because a stopped anything in the roadway could not be seen in time to stop, if not seen immediately.

             Now, I’m aware that he knows of the cut through/short cut. But, under these circumstances, with his trip to the store being somewhat pressing, a right bending road and poor visibility conditions on his hands, I sincerely doubt that cut through would be worth even a glance. Worse yet, he needs to stop and stare for at least 2 or 3 seconds, to capture any thing of interest that might be happening there. So that’s hardly a good fit with a trip to the store, that’s done weekly and already delayed, being made alone when it usually includes his wife.

             As we collect more information and we back fill in the various motivations and narratives surrounding the components GZ offers to anchor his story segments, we’re finding more and more disjointed misfits and mismatches.

             That is what is making the whole story seem more contrived than it should be. Why is he leaving his wife behind, on their usual weekly shopping trip? Makes little sense as it is, even without this important trip having been delayed. That Osterman might be at the house is no excuse at all for such behavior. I’ve driven 100 miles to visit a friend, only to arrive at the exact time they were racing to get to the stores/supermarket before closing. The solution was that I simply went along with them, even though I could easily have stayed behind at the house, having stayed and house sat for them for several days at several times before.

             So, that makes it appear that wifey was jettisoned for this mission, why? Probably because it isn’t a real shopping trip at all. It also seems more likely that Osterman didn’t stay at the house with GZ’s wife, but was out prowling the grounds as well, I don’t think a man with his creds, and history, would want anything less than to be part of any mission in play.

             Instead, for example, of having GZ make all those U turns and drive bys at the mailboxes. It’d be easier to imaging MO making a pass and discovering TM there, then going over to the clubhouse and letting GZ know what he’s found. MO doesn’t want to take the lead on anything, he likes to stay in the background, like the ghost he likes to fancy himself as. Somehow I don’t think we’ve heard the last of MO, I think he’ll appear again in the narratives of the evidence trails.

       • This scenario makes sense. I probably won’t draw another map (yet) because it would essentially be a speculative hybrid of map 1 and map 2.

         For reference…

         Map 1: https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

         Map 2: https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing-v-2.jpg

         One thing I’ll note — which QETNO also mentioned — is that Zimmerman seemed excited about something near the end of his call to police.

         In your scenario and per the wind interference, the running would have stopped just before Zimmerman turned right (south) onto Retreat View. He would need to walk down Retreat View, turn right (west) onto Twin Trees, and basically be parallel with Trayvon on the sidewalk to have a view/sound excitable during his call.

         This timing probably doesn’t work out (though I’ve done no measurements for your hypothetical scenario) and leaves him within feet of the “suspect” while hanging up the phone (not likely at all).

         To contrast, Zimmerman could get a view of Trayvon on his porch shortly after turning east on Twin Trees in map 2.

       • I with you up until the punch. The nose carries too much oil, for a punch not to leave a heavy dollop of trace on the hands, oil mixed with cells, dna would stick and even the rain would not wash it off. Try pinching a piece of your nose and squeeze it, you’ll see a squiggle of oil released. That oil will also contain dead skin cells. You can’t hit a nose hard and/or squarely without getting a good dose of trace on your hand.

         Besides, TM is not combative, he’s passive! He’s going to be even more passive, when confronted by an adult male who is heavier, older and appears to be more powerful. And, if that’s not enough, there’s another component that someone here mentions, TM is not yet well coordinated enough to tangle with heavier older males.

         Were he the least bit savvy or sophisticated, he’d probably have looked for a weapon to use, we have no evidence that he did. Instead we see a confused and frightened teenager being confronted by a big strange adult, for no obvious reason TM can think of, other than to do him some kind of harm.

         TM knows that throwing a blow at a person, would only serve to make them more angry. He has no defense against this man, already, so why would he imagine that, after throwing any such blow, he’d be free to go his way? As opposed to imagining that, if he did throw a blow, this guy would become really enraged and that would ensure he got a severe beating. TM’s own fears would be too much of a deterrent to overcome and take an action that he could only envision as having worsening negative results.

         Think about it, not being a fighter yourself, you’d not throw a punch at a guy who looked like a heavy weight prize fighter. Because you don’t expect a surprise or lucky punch, to have any long lasting benefits for you.

       • This vantage point, or anywhere along RVC.

         Listen forward from @ 5:51 He says, I looked around didn’t see anybody and I told NEN he’s gone @ 6:02 he says, So I thought I could see, then he changes what he says to an address. What I believe what he was going to say, So I thought I could see HIM if I went to RVC. So I think you are on target about RVC.

         • One part of the timing I think works is GZ’s dash to RVC. He doesn’t actually need to look down the sidewalk where Trayvon ran. He would want to run to RVC as soon as he can in order to monitor Trayvon’s attempt to get away. Remember he just knows that all these Sanford goons go out that back gate. So, any route Trayvon takes, GZ can see his exit only if he gets to RVC quick enough. He did. And that told him Trayvon was still in The Retreat.
           I’m gonna say that GZ knew how to patrol. His “bad memory” was mainly from trying to combine his own fibs with what Osterman, SheLie, maybe Frank, and later dad were telling him to say. The problem with running down TTL is since Trayvon was so far ahead GZ would be at a disadvantage. Being at RVC keeps George in control and knowing what to tell police even if Trayvon had run out.

       • @whonoze –

         Most of what you’re describing has been my theory/hypothesis/best guest from the start. I posted the opening at post #225 in the discussions at

         Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed

         My opinions were formed at that time after taking a look at what was then known and reported. Based on the evidence and applying common sense, I came up with an opinion that zimmerman had motive and opportunity to chase the child back down the path from near his father’s house to the tee on the doggie path. I have also accepted other’s hypotheses and reasoned explanation as to why zimmerman would do such a horrible thing because what they’ve outlined makes sense.

         Zimmerman had to ensure there were no witnesses.

       • @NLME –

         I wonder if it is possible that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon Martin from South to North and after that particular chase, Trayvon Martin ran around Zimmerman’s truck (circling it while being chased) before heading back past the corner homes of the HOA lady heading south again. I think time could permit it after Zimmerman hung up with dispatch. It would also fit nicely with the teacher’s statements that she heard noises and then several minutes later (I think she guestimated 10 minutes) before hearing something that alarmed her again.

192. Thanks to aussie, the comments appear to be fixed (for the time being). I may switch back to moderating comments since we didn’t have this bug before but won’t until I return from vacation early next week.

     • Enjoy your vacation! I’m headed out for a mini-one myself.

     • One bug a week is worth putting up with, I think. With moderation, comments end up delayed, especially if you are away. With direct posting, there is much better flow of conversation, as responses to comments don’t get delayed. I suspect the bug might happen if two comments come in at the same time.

     • Enjoy your vacation. 🙂

     • Enjoy the time off!!!

193. A gunshot “particle” was found on upper back sleeve of GZ’s jacket. This has been vexing me. If we assume that it got there on the night of the shooting (and not from a trip to the shooting range), then how? He shot the gun with his left hand.

     Contrary to his claim of being flat on the ground and shooting with his right hand, the particle could only have gotten there if he shot the gun with his left (dominant) hand and was pointing/aiming the gun under his right arm. Imagine also that he’s holding TM’s sweatshirt at the time, so it’s closer to the gun, consistent with a contact shot on the sweatshirt but an intermediate shot to the body (I think this has been posited before here somewhere).

     If true, this would be damning since it would mean he lied (among other lies) and that he had the upper hand at the very moment the shot went off. It doesn’t mean that a split second earlier, TM could have been on top, but was pushed off or started to get off of GZ. However,he made the decision to pull the trigger, so he and buddy MO had to sell a self-defense story. That’s why MO’s version has all those added details. Sound plausible?

     • Much more perplexing is the absence of GSR anywhere else. DID THEY actually swab his hands for residue? no I suppose not, seeing he’d admitted to doing the shooting.

       But he was wearing long sleeves, surely a bit more should have ended up on his clothing?

       He consistently demonstrates a right-hand draw, Body language is sub-conscious. I think if he drew with his left, at least once in the demos he’d have accidentally started to use the left hand.

       • @aussie,
         “Much more perplexing is the absence of GSR anywhere else. DID THEY actually swab his hands for residue? no I suppose not, seeing he’d admitted to doing the shooting.” ****You’re right, his hands were washed clean.

         “But he was wearing long sleeves, surely a bit more should have ended up on his clothing?” ****Perhaps so, I’m not an expert on how gun residues end up on things or how much there should be on a gun like this (any gun nerds out there?), but hold an imaginary gun (or a real one…) in your left hand and cross your arms so that your upper right arm is resting on top of your left wrist. It would cover the left sleeve at the wrist, so the particle ends up on the back of his upper right sleeve and no where else, especially if GZ was still partially on the ground. Picture this… if TM had just been pushed off of GZ, he (TM) might have been laying to the right of GZ at an angle already when the shot was made. He was already down. This is why GZ can’t explain exactly how TM fell or how he got out from underneath. When MO gave his statement, he made sure to insert those tidbits of the elbow on the ground, rotating gun, and falling at a 90 degree angle to complete the story.

         “He consistently demonstrates a right-hand draw, Body language is sub-conscious. I think if he drew with his left, at least once in the demos he’d have accidentally started to use the left hand.” **** Sure GZ makes a lot of slips, pauses, etc. during the re-enactment, but while he was explaining the moment of shooting, he’s concentrating really hard on getting that part “right”, contorting his body and all, because it’s the key to his whole defense.

       • @ Aussie, “Much more perplexing is the absence of GSR anywhere else.”
         (GSR meaning gunshot residue)

         You got me thinking….

         At least two witnesses say they saw T-shirts (including Austin and the confused “white T-shirt” woman) and one witness who lives at the top of the T said after the shooting she saw a hispanic man with a short sleeved shirt walking towards her. Regardless of their description of the color, the fact that they said “T-shirt” means that they saw his light colored arms in the dark yard while he was on the ground and walking away. This means his sleeves were pushed up. Two things about what this could mean.

         1) People push up their sleeves unconsciously when they’re about to do something, think “bar fight”. Not that he did it right before the tussle. He could have done it earlier in what people describe here as “the hunt”.

         2) Pushed up sleeves could also explain no residues found on the sleeves at the wrist area. His jacket is quite long and comes down over his wrist when standing up (see evidence photos). However, I don’t know what they test for exactly in residue. Is it just lead? I’ve read that newer ammunition could also have little lead in them.
         http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distancegsr.htm
         But then you’d think they’d test for other things to account for that…..

194. I believe I originated the hypothesis that DeeDee’s reference to Trayvon taking refuge from the rain under an “apartment awning,” reported from her original interview with Benjamin Crump, may have been Trayvon referring to one of the entryways of the apartment complex just West of The Retreat. However, after puzzling over the largely unintelligible recording of that interview included in the evidence dump, I can make out enough of what she’s saying to understand that this “awning” to which she refers is the first place where Trayvon noticed GZ observing him, and from which he walked out while being concerned about being watched.

     Thus, there is no contradiction here with her later interview with BdlR. She WAS referring to an awning inside The Retreat, at the clubhouse, in the Crump interview. It was just that having only heard about the area, and not seen it, she did not know how to describe it. By the time she spoke to BdlR, she had clearly seen news reports about the layout of The Retreat, probably talked further with the Martin family or their attorneys.

     It is still possible that her confidence in the BdlR interview that TM was under the mailbox awning comes from hearing other people suggest that this is where he was. He may have been under the overhang of some part of the main clubhouse building rather than the mailbox “gazebo.” But given that GZ parked a ways down on TTL, in a position where we can safely assume he was able to see Trayvon, that makes the mailbox “awning” the most likely spot. And if TM had not been at that exact point, he could not have been too far away.

     Again, I think the larger significance of this is that it supports the hypothesis that GZ did NOT see TM enter The Retreat via the Taaffe short-cut, did NOT drive along the North West section of RVC as Trayvon was walking down the same street, did NOT park at the clubhouse as Trayvon walked past him. DeeDee does not mention Trayvon talking about any of this, which means either, a. he said something about seeing GZ in the moving car and she just left it out of the story, b. he noticed GZ driving around but didn’t say anything about it to DeeDee even after seeing him parked on TTL (‘it’s the same truck that cruised by me before!!) c. he didn’t notice GZ driving past him, then passing GZ parked at the clubhouse, giving him a dirty look both times, or d. it just didn’t happen. Going for the most logical, I’d say ‘d.’

     Which means TM was under the clubhouse/mailbox awning at 6:54, when he phoned DeeDee, the call dropped, and she called him right back. Which means TM was under the awning for 15 minutes before GZ phoned the police. Which means it is extremely likely that TM was under the awning before GZ got into his Ridgeline and left his townhome. Which means it is extremely likely that GZ was tipped to Trayvon’s presence, rather than simply discovering it for himself en route to a shopping trip.

     [And do George and Shellie really strike anyone as Target customers, or more like Wal-Mart folks? 🙂 ]

     • OMG, dying at your very last comment. Definitely Wal-Mart shoppers. (Nothing wrong with that! I shop there, too. :P)

       *NOT FACT* – COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL – DO NOT confuse or spread as fact.

       Ok, now that I’m done with my disclaimer. Is it possible that they were out shopping when tipped off and rushed home? Or, possibly just arrived home, and were tipped off? I don’t know why, but I just think they went grocery shopping earlier in the day for some reason. That would be very easy to verify. He’s scenario about how he came upon TM is all too convenient.

       • Yeah, way too convenient.

         But he knows that it’s going to require some patrolling, and NW’er’s aren’t supposed to patrol. (I wonder if the SPD knew about these patrols?)
         In any event, it seems that the NW’ers have some sort of plan to evade NW rules all the time. Then, concealing notifications would be par for the course and demand that they cover up spotting as a routine.

         • He did a lot of his patrolling while “walking his dog”. Shopping would be another good excuse for driving around.

           But one witness said he used to crawl around at night with the truck lights off, then get out and look between the buildings with the flashlight.

           • Yes, I’ve noted that. I think that’s going to come back and bite him big time in front of the jury! Since he has a pattern of patrolling, but always concealing the fact behind some kind of cover story. Now that he really needs a cover story, it’s easy to see that he developed the skill to create a story that covers his actions over a rather long time. So, he’s had plenty of practice at pretending that he’s not patrolling and, he’s obviously had plenty of time to consider how to cover up his following as well.

             At the very least, it proves that he knows that he’s not supposed to be following TM, but that he ignores that rule, because he believes he can effectively cover up what he’s doing. Just as he’s been doing all along.

             Only this time it came back to bite him, he followed someone he believed to be armed. That mandated that he pull his gun, even if TM only came towards him, to ask him why he was following him. If a person you claimed you were scared to death of. So frightened that you wouldn’t identify yourself to, when you had the chance, then, it stands to reason you pull your gun if that person comes towards you… Perhaps with his hands in his waistband, to keep his iced tea from falling. (Remember, the story should be kept as simple as possible for the jury). Let’s hear the defense try to explain why GZ was too frightened to talk to TM by the mailboxes or the cut through as he passes GZ’s truck, but, back there in the dark, GZ is suddenly Captain Courageous. I’m sure the jury will find that explanation very interesting! I’m not sure it will play very well during deliberations though.

             I’m pretty sure the jury will be shown the reenactment video! You know, the part where the officer is swinging his hand, to approximate the direction that TM was supposedly coming towards GZ. That’s going to dove tail nicely with his claim of being caught by surprise, being knocked to the ground and laying there helpless, while TM mounted him and began to bash his head on the concrete. I have a good idea of how the jury is going to resolve the conflict of TM being found dead some 40.5 feet away from there.

             Even if they don’t get the timelines developed here, they are going to posit that GZ and TM got up and walked back there! But, since GZ clearly remembers that he shot TM, shortly after he shimmied off the concrete, and after John told him he was calling 911, the jury will have little choice but to conclude that GZ has lied once again. After all, he always lies about patrolling, so why should this be any different?

             Oh geeze, now that MOM is no longer pro bono, I guess he doesn’t get the States funds, eh? He will have to sue the family and/or encumber their bond security? Maybe he got them to sign as guarantors when he set up the bond?
             In which case they’d already be responsible for his fees. I hear the donations aren’t coming in quite so fast.

     • I’d say they were Walmarters. What was the brand on that jacket of his?
       I think I saw it in one of the pictures. Is that a Walmart brand?

       • Was it Free Country? Not sure if that was the exact brand, but something like that. Will go check their web site to see if they carry that. Also, we know they were Wal-Marters considering they had that bill they paid off from there with the donations.

       • Here’s the brand web site listing where the brand is sold. Didn’t find any FC brand on Wal-Mart site.

         http://www.freecountry.com/fc2008/stores.html

         Not that this is real pressing info, lol.

       • @ lonnie, whonoze and everybody else going off on this tangent… I have relatives in the south (not FL) who say that its standard practice to buy birthday gifts at Target even though it may be cheaper at Walmart because you don’t want to embarrass the kid with a gift receipt from Walmart. It’s a weird “keeping up with the Jones” thing. So GZ may be suspected of murder, but no way is he gonna be caught saying he shops at Walmart? His mother did want him to move up in the world (Sarcasm). P.S. I shop at both.

         • Love this board, I get a chance to play a freecell game while waiting for the reply box to load. LoL.

           Anyway I don’t think anyone’s putting much into this, it’s just an aside. A light diversion, we’ll be needing them from time to time as we wait for official actions to visit.

     • This is also my line of thoughts Whonoze.
       Being tipped off is the most likely scenario. I mean in terms of probability.

       1) The odds of two mobile individuals to meet are the odds that they get to the same place at the same moment. If TM was walking and GZ was driving, the odds of them meeting were very small.
       2) The odds that two individuals meet knowing that one individual is mobile and the other is fixed somewhere on the path of the one that is mobile are significantly higher. In this specific case we have three opportunities for TM to meet his witness:
       2A) TM (mobile) may have walked by FT & WC (both live on TM’s path).,
       2B) TM (fixed) by the mailboxes can be seen by any individual driving to/from the north gate. That may include MO if he was visiting the Gs.
       2C) TM walking by MO leaving M&I bank. MO was not fixed then but we know he was in the right area at the right moment which in terms of probability is almost equivalent as being fixed.

       It might be that GZ was tipped by two or more persons, either as a NW captain or as a friend (of MO), or both. Any of these individuals, MO, FT & CW could have noticed Trayvon in the complex.

       Finally, from the 7-11 videos, we know TM headed back home at 6:31p. He couldn’t have made it to the mailboxes before 6:45p without running.
       From DeeDee’s account and from the Trayvon’s call log, we know TM was at the mailboxes by 6:54p.
       I can count 9 vehicles by the north gate and 5 more by the mailboxes between 6:54 & 7:06 when I see the truck that looks like GZ’s Ridgeline. The odds are getting high that GZ was tipped off.

       • Seems to be an unnecessary cover (many of his fibs are). Initially GZ is presented as the lone ranger. Now the first part of the reenactment is certainly a fiction; GZ happening upon young Trayvon by himself. What or whom is this fictional account protecting? What is this person’s relevance? It was a desired behavior to tip off George, printed in the HOA newsletter. Is the tip off confidential?
         If someone or some action of George is being covered up, that was put in place at the beginning. Makes me think the one who started George’s motor was either the murderer or an accessory.

         • You’re almost there Screamin’ Jay!

           GZ has a very good reason to hide the notification from everyone! Because, if he doesn’t hide it, then he can’t be in the right to carry his weapon!

           If he had gotten a tip off from someone, and he’d gone out of his house, his claim of going to the store would be cast into question. He could not say, by the time he’s called the NEN, that he wasn’t on patrol, and his admission of having followed TM, would mean that he’s doing so, knowing full well that he’s armed.

           So, everything has to happen, 1,2,3, by “accident”/”unplanned”/”no time to think about it”/”didn’t realize in the heat of the moment/confusion”.

           That scenario would be destroyed by any notification at all, so he has to conceal it. Otherwise his claimed trip to the store doesn’t work as cover.
           His claim of not patrolling or following would not work at all! He’d be clearly seen to have come out of his house with his weapon to hunt down and follow his quarry. And that would put a terrible cast on all of the rest of the confusions he tries to create about that evening.

       • MO would be turning left into Orlando just on 6.40 if he went direct from the bank to visit GZ.

         I don’t believe TM was first seen at the mail or Taaffe’s. He was seen heading off Orlando towards that shortcut. GZ did not pick him up at Taaffe’s, because he hadn’t been told by then. I don’t think he was told until going on 7, when TM was already sheltering there. This accounts for the up and down cruising with the u-turns. And he’s already seeing red because of the late notice.

         If the tipster was MO he’d be feeling very bad about the mess he unwittingly started, which would feed into why he’s been so helpful to GZ in the aftermath.

         I do believe he was inside the estate when the shooting happened. Partly the timing of his returning from home would be too tight. Partly if he’d made an immediate tip-off by phone, GZ would have found TM a lot earlier, maybe the moment he came out of the shortcut.

         • oh and tchoupi cross this off your list.

           2B) TM (fixed) by the mailboxes can be seen by any individual driving to/from the north gate. That may include MO if he was visiting the Gs.

           You said yourself TM couldn’t be at the mailboxes before 6.45 unless he ran all the way. MO would be driving in ~6.42 at latest.

         • Yeah, and those calls would have been logged. If there’s anything going on between MO and GZ, given what we know now, is that neither of them wants to have their communications leave a trail. Probably most especially concerning NW, since GZ takes such great pains to always cover up what he’s doing as NW. MO would probably feel very comfortable falling in line with clandestine activities. Perhaps even going so far as to suggest a few things of his own.

           GZ doesn’t call for MO, to come move his truck. Even though with MO’s credentials, he’s the person most likely to succeed in doing so, with all the police presence around. Instead he calls his wife! And sure enough MO gets the message and accompanies her. Had an officer asked any questions, I’m sure MO would have flashed a badge or gov’t id or some such, a few quick word and away they go with the truck. Unfortunately they didn’t have to, but insurance is always nice to have, eh?

     • whonoze “Which means it is extremely likely that GZ was tipped to Trayvon’s presence, rather than simply discovering it for himself en route to a shopping trip.”

       We are coming full circle here. Originally we picked the RVC shortcut route because coming up TTL facing the mailboxes is not only an unlikely way to get from GZ’s place to the gate, but would not have given him time to see anything suspicious.

       The story in the walkthrough at Taaffe’s is 95% about what happened on a previous occasion. That is the only logical spot for him to claim an accidental noticing, and he already has a ready-made story to tell about that corner.

       Still, I think the tipoff was about someone suspicious heading for that short-cut from the Orlando Ave (outside) end. And not given as an urgent tipoff, but as a casual remark, and not immediately. By the time GZ was told, TM was already under the awning.

       So, GZ crawls around RVC, then along RVC across the intersection to the far bend. Then does a u-turn (the one tchoupi can see) back along RVC. Crossing the intersection he catches movement out of the corner of his eye. So does another u-turn on RVC, turns right to the mailboxes, stops to have a stare-down. Drives off a bit and does yet another u-turn while calling NEN.

       (He could just stop and look backwards, but the u-turn way he’s ready to chase, if the suspect makes a break towards RVC or the gate. What he didn’t count on was the suspect walking past him and skipping down TTL, which is why he ended up having to get out and follow on foot).

       • We are saying GZ got a tip about a goon (one thought to possibly be a repeat offender). Doesn’t matter who dialed in the tip. MO is not on the watch and doesn’t even live in the hood. Anyway, GZ drives out and will attempt to locate Trayvon somewhere in The Retreat. He’s patrolling in vehicle based on the tip. Probably done this before. Shortly after 7pm he’s not on NEN yet, just circling around the clubhouse area. Sounds right.

         As I re-listen to the call I can imagine Trayvon running down TTL. But I don’t see that GZ would need to get out. He could more easily make another u-turn and drive after Trayvon. Seems more certain that he NEEDED to get out because Trayvon ran off the road where the truck couldn’t go.

       • “7-11 videos, we know TM headed back home at 6:31p…

         He couldn’t have made it to the mailboxes before 6:45p without running…

         From DeeDee’s account and from the Trayvon’s call log, we know TM was at the mailboxes by 6:54p.”

         That gives us 23 minutes from 7-11 to the mailboxes. Likely he did some running, because rain usually threatens to get heavy first, before it actually does. So you’d want to move just a tad more quickly than you otherwise would.

         Let’s see, we know he was at the RATL mailboxes 9 minutes later than his earliest running time. This would mean that he’s going slower than running, but also that he’s coming straight in, not stopping anywhere enroute.

         This means he sweeps through the approx. 30 foot optimal viewing area, of GZ coming down RVC in about 6 seconds. While GZ coming down RVC would sweep through this area in about 1 second, if he came through while TM was still back on the cut through path, and the angle would be wrong to facilitate TM being seen. Thus TM, to be seen optimally, would have to be out walking across the road, just as GZ gets about a 100 feet down RVC, in order to see him. But he says that TM didn’t cross the road, but that he saw him emerge from behind/between Taaffe’s place. That has to mean he had only a fraction of a second to look 90º to his left to spot TM, while driving to the store in the rain.

         OR, the more likely option is that he’s parked there laying in wait for TM to appear. Which could mean that he’s been notified of TM’s approach, and that would take a spotter outside the estates.

         If a spotter outside RATL is not considered likely, then GZ has to have picked up TM at the mailboxes. Everything else in invented, and we know now that GZ is used to inventing such stories, to cover up his own Rogue NW activities.

         Yes, rolling around the RATL with lights off, and pretending to walk the dog and use other lies to cover up activities prohibited to NW’ers, does make him a rogue neighborhood watcher! Not to mention he carries a weapon, loaded and ready to fire, while doing it.

         • From the times he could not have picked him up at the RVC bend. He was tipped off, but belatedly, so had to drive around searching. And found movement at the mailboxes.

           The “what he saw at Taaffe’s” was a total re-run of a previous occasion. The description until the “he’s here now” is totally invented.

     • That you all for your helpful comments. I feel a little tin-foil-hat-ish, in my speculation that GZ must have been tipped by MO having seen TM emerge by Taaffe’s. I’m still confident GZ wasn’t leaving for a shopping trip, and he didn’t spot TM by Taaffe’s.

       But I have finally double-checked the map and realized that even though the bank is the other way from the 7-11 on Rinehart, the only route from the bank to The Retreat would be traveling East on Oregon, thus giving a driver going that way a better chance to spot someone heading for the shortcut from outside the community than inside.

       More importantly, as aussie says, GZ could have just been patrolling because that was something he liked to do, and he could have made up the Target story just because he knew patrolling was something he WASN’T supposed to do, and it makes the fact he shot someone appear more innocent. So no ‘tip’ need have been involved at all.

       And if he was just patrolling, but decided to make up a story about a chance encounter, as aussie said, of course he’d go back to something that really happened earlier to come up with plausible details, since at one point he DID see a suspicious person around Taaffe’s home, and did apparently thwart an attempted robbery on that occassion.

       I guess I really wanted Osterman to be the ‘key’ that ‘unlocks the puzzle.’ Perhaps he still may be that. But we shouldn’t let things we would wish to be true, simply because they fill in the blanks or provide some kind of narrative continuity, overcome our responsibility to interrogate the facts from all angles, and to avoid turning hypotheses into conclusions without proper warrant.

       • I sweated for 2 weeks for that bank video to be released.

         When I saw it on the evidence list, it didn’t say which bank. I googled the locations of M&I banks in the area and found the one on Rinehart Rd.

         And I KNEW it would show someone who would have seen TM OUTSIDE…. because a totally chance meeting in that tiny window of visibility at RVC was so unlikely.

         I did think it might show GZ using the bank driveway to do a u-turn, or something like that. But when it showed his stay-in-the-background friend and I saw the TIME – bingo.

         But I do believe the “tip-off” was casual conversation from his end, as it could not have been immediate, or GZ would have been out and found TM sooner. It was a “tip-off” only to GZ’s ears.

       • Yes, let’s not get ahead of ourselves as you say, what we are doing here is collecting the possibilities that the evidence indicates may be operating here. That does not mean that they are operating here, but that they may be. Thus you have a reason to inspect other evidence in light of the collected theories.
         As we find matches that add to one theory better than others, we hope that the theory with the most matches wins.

         But, without any theories, all the evidence in the world means little to nothing.

195. Can anyone speak to GZ’s trick of mirroring or mimicking the words and actions of his adversaries? Is this some psychiatric condition?
     Right after his ex- took out an injunction against him he filed the exact same thing against her. He does this all the time in his story-telling about Trayvon. It reminds me of Alice’s magical trip through the looking glass. In fact, I feel like I might be able to straighten this whole case out if I just go back through all of George’s testimony and switch “George” for “Trayvon” and Trayvon for George.

     I have a very meaningful experience to relate about this. Once I was in a big box store. (It just happened to be one of GZ’s grocery stores – Target. LOL. Does Target even have groceries?) Two little boys came running and screaming around the corner. I think they were brothers, one about 8 and the other maybe 7. They were chasing and fighting while running and just at my feet they both fell down. The parent immediately rounded the same corner and accused the older one, “Why did you push him?” The answer was, “I didn’t push him, he pulled me!”

     • @Screaming ‘ Jay, I commented on GZ’s flip flopping scenarios earlier. See the comments for post #116 above. Yes, some Targets do have groceries (kinda like Walmart Supercenters with groceries).

     • Yeah, Target has groceries, but it is a bit like buying groceries at a drugstore or a gas station. You aren’t going to get the kind of deals or quality on some items that you’d get from a grocery store. Also this says a little bit about his and Shelly’s financial know-how. You buy snacks and sale items at Target, but not groceries. They aren’t very responsible people considering the disarray that their finances seemed to be in before this. Shelly may have been wise about not starting a family with GZ. If he ends up serving time, things will surely end in divorce.

       • Upon personal experience with how many different Target stores are you basing this judgement of their grocery operation?

         Are any of them Super Target locations?

         unitron

         • Point taken after reading Aussie’s remark below, but still the only time I buy from places like that is if I am on vacation. On vacation I am shop for the convenience of getting everything in one spot, but the value and the prices are NOT necessarily better than going to separate stores. I know this because my husband and I compare prices all of the time. I hope that I am not knocking someone’s favorite superstore.

       • The Target in question is a Super one. This is from their website (I’ve taken out the opening hours)

         Store Services:
         Pharmacy
         Photo Center

         Fresh Grocery
         A complete grocery store including a full-service deli and bakery.

         Wine Available
         Starbucks
         Optical

     • I don’t think it’s been honoured with a psychiatric label.

       We’ve been seeing this all the way through, I think it was Lonnie Star who first pointed it out, on the very first blog (the map one).

       It serves two purposes. One is that it’s a lot easier to take facts and twist them, rather than make up totally new stories. The other is, in case there were witnesses, what’s being said is what may have been seen. By swapping roles he sows confusion in the minds of the witnesses, making them think he’s probably telling the truth because that is rather kinda what they saw, and “seeing is believing”.

       • Yes, and I came to notice it, because I try to look into the mind of the person who would say a thing and what their motive might be, when I come across something that is exactly the opposite of where their own head should be.

         GZ, at the point where he tries to say he was screaming for help, was clearly not in a position where he actually needed any help at all. Unless he was paralyzed, he should have been physically struggling against the assault!
         When do you ever hear anyone engaged in mere physical fighting call for help? If they’re losing so badly, they simply cease to resist, not call for others to come to their aid.

         Only when one is so over matched, as someone would be when confronted with the deadly force by the prolonged display of a deadly weapon, would a person be moved to call for help. Because the initial display of a weapon forces one to be silent and attempt to assess the options, in the hope that they will not be shot. But, the prolonged agony of being forced to face a deadly threat, will eventually overcome any restraining inhibitions as fear becomes overpowering. That’s when the out cry for help begins. It’s like a person falling off a building, the scream does nothing to help the situation, all it does is fill the mind with an offsetting diversion.

         A child, over powered by an adult will scream for help, because an adult attacker is life threatening to a child, even without a weapon. But TM and GZ are too close a match for each other and GZ has the edge in combat. TM does not scream for help during their initial encounter, but, in my estimation, he starts screaming, moments after GZ begins holding him at gun point without firing. It takes only seconds of this high tension threat to overcome TM’s inhibitions causing him to essentially throw caution to the winds and start screaming for help, to replace the fear in his head.

         That got me looking at the other things GZ was saying, and as I read more and more about GZ biography, I began to notice that GZ always tries to take what others have said or done in their defense, as actions that he was the one to take. It a progression of childish behavior, where they progress from copycatting, which only gets them so far and turns people against them. To, what I call “misattributioning”, defending by taking the actions and words of the aggrieved as their own, to paint themselves as the aggrieved party and reverse the equations.

         • Go back to my post 171 and listen to those videos.

           Then listen to the 911 tape again. Some of that screaming could have bee pain, not fear.

     • Rule breakers learn very early in life (abusive mother?) that the rules mean little to nothing, but people’s disposition means very much more. Thus the use of “misattribution” is a very effective defense mechanism. For most infractions nobody has the time to sort these out, so even if they know the truth, they also know that they’re not going to take the time to prove against the perpetrator, so to be fair, they feel they have to minimize/reduce their rulings against them. This reinforces the misattributors strategy and encourages them to develop it to the level of a fine art.

       The precursor of misattribution is copycatting. Where, when one kid gets into an argument over his head, he attempts to escape by repeating to you, everything you say to him. Effective because it forces you to give up attempting to reason, if you’re not going to fight, and fighting will get you no where, then you’re only choice is to drop the argument entirely.

       It’s a good sign that GZ suffers from arrested development!

       • You guys are so smart! I work with all kinds of disablities. In the case of developmental disablility and mental illness, it’s instructive to try and guess the emotional, operational, or brain age of an individual. Trauma, anxiety, or social reversals at a critical age can have the same effect on the mind as a hammer hit on the head.
         Hard to say if George is maybe just coy, conniving, and manipulative. The way he says, “Yes, sir” makes me think of a child, though. Now it is becoming apparent he had help from Osterman and Taaffe from the beginning. Some hear other voices in and around the car during the NEN call. These may be on the dispatch end. Serino uses the word scripted. Maybe what we’re experiencing is George trying to pull off other people’s ideas that he doesn’t do very well.
         Let’s tie things together a bit. These cloudy misattributions are critical. They ARE George’s self-defense. When grasping for believable lies one works with the data at hand. There is not much to work with.
         Did we say Osterman was on scene by arrest time? If so, the twistifications could have come from him. When he hears there was screaming for help, he tells GZ to say he was the one screaming. What other bugs would he put in GZ’s ear? That GZ was going shopping and spotted Trayvon at FT’s house.

         • Ahhh……… EMT never heard GZ saying to them about calling for help but nobody came, that Smith says he heard. That may have actually been GZ and MO discussing that???

           The going shopping was already part of it in GZ’s mind from the start; he routinely had such doing-something-else excuses for patrolling.

           MO had opportunity for substantial input into all statements beyond the first one with Singleton, as GZ went to his place for the rest of the night. Odd then that he tells interviewers that GZ told him about seeing TM at Taaffe’s, while GZ went totally to denying any following, always glossing over what happened before the Big T Meeting.

         • I don’t think GZ had to be told how to take the words of others for his own, while putting his own words and actions on others. I don’t know much about Osterman, but his credentials kind of preclude him putting much stock in such a childish device. As you can see, the end time of the shouting for help, pretty nearly precludes it being credibly GZ. The circumstances also deny GZ the credibility to claim the screams as his and his access to a weapon, make it seem even more improbable.

           The point is, while the claim being not credible is not proof positive, nor are the mis-fitting circumstances adding anymore certainty, and while access to the weapon, while making it “even more improbable” is not proof. Taken together, with the least dash of a ding in GZ’s credibility, and a jury is going to be pushed away from GZ, such that he won’t be given any more breaks when other evidence conflicts with his claims. In short, he’s building a very subtle and powerful back story against himself.

           Osterman’s work will probably be more direct manipulations of the story, to make it fit the legal rules that must be met, if his defense is to apply. I’d bet that Osterman has appeared in courts of law and has testified. If so, he’d be paying attention to the statements, that the evidence allows to be made in court. The truck disappears and with it goes the evidence it may have contained, poof, several paragraphs of investigation are gone. Osterman knows better than to try to munge evidence with linguistic tricks, because, while they may support a theory of innocence that cannot be disproved, they don’t do it in a credible manner, thus they create more suspicions than they resolve.

         • The “bugs” about going shopping and spotting TM near Taaffe’s are something that Osterman may have helped with, but if so, he did that many months earlier, when GZ and the other NW who never were registered as such, were interested in finding ways to carry weapons and patrol, as they knew they weren’t supposed to be doing.

           The Osterman solution to these problems would have been: Simple; you never go on patrols! You always “just happen to be there”, in which case, there are no rules that can be applied. Thus, instead of going on patrol, GZ takes his dog for a walk. He’d know not to respond to a NW call, but to instead go shopping or find some other errand or mission to perform, that get’s him “accidentally/coincidentally” wherever he wants to be with his firearm.

         • Yep just accidentally coincidentally going the same way at the same time.

           With that kind of good fortune he’d have done buying lottery tickets, if he wanted easy money.

196. ==============================
     warning
     =============================

     John B ( a pro-Z troll blind to all evidence and deaf to all attempts at being taught) has showed back up on the original MAP blog.

     I suggest everyone just ignore him. He’s not worth wasting electrons on.

     • Hopefully he stays on that one. Talking with (most) GZ supporters is pointless.

     • Agreed… All he’s going to succeed at doing is, getting new readers blood boiling. If he starts going ballistic with insults and outrageous lies, and/or being stoically non-responsive to hard evidence, then I’d suggest his comments be deleted and he be barred from the board with an appropriate explanation as to why and perhaps even an exhibit or two. Otherwise just let him rant.

       • barred maybe; comments deleted no…….. it makes too many of our replies to him look like we’re insulting each other.

         If everyone just ignores him, he will go away. It’s a thread nobody’s used for weeks anyway, so just leave him to it.

197. I was thinking about the blunt theory. Its not easy to prepare the blunt in transit. There is also no one to smoke it with. With the amount of tobacco, one wouldn’t smoke a whole blunt by himself. It is not like something he can huff down quickly, it would take more time to smoke a blunt, than a joint. If he did manage to roll a blunt, it would have been hit a few times, and then saved. If there was one, it would have been tossed, or possibly hidden by TM, after he is being chased. There is no ash residue in any of the pockets, presumably? The things suggesting blunt are , the lighter, the 7-11 interaction, the toxicology, the police inquiry’s mentioning weed. So there sort of is a lot there to say blunt, but where did he blunt go? Is that cut through behind FTs a good place to smoke, or is it too out in the open? Does he have a place where he hides it, and normally goes to smoke, so that he is not bringing that smelly thing back into Brandy’s?

     • Toxicology says that Trayvon wasn’t under influence that night. Traces found in his blood suggest he smoked weed more than a week before being killed. This is roughly the time he’s been with his father.

       I checked again, I couldn’t find any trace of tobacco in the autopsy report.

     • It was pouring rain, too, you can’t stand around smoking, 2 drops of water is enough to stop the thing burning.

       The lighter we talked about ages ago, several recently ex-smokers still having them in jacket pockets.

       Kids tend to smoke tobacco outside, too, not just weed. The sensible place for their lighter to permanently live is in the pocket of the outer clothing.

       The cousin he stayed with the day before told investigators they had gone to 7-11 (not specifying which one) for various things, including a B&M which they then smoked. I’d say that’s when Trayvon bought that lighter and it stayed in his pocket. TM had some money from his father go to the movies with, which they ended up deciding not to go to, and had hung around the cousin’s place instead.

     • It was raining, no way to stop and smoke a blunt comfortably. Besides, he probably doesn’t know anyone in this nabe to get one from. The guys he met at the 7-11 are probably just acquaintances who he’s met or seen on previous trips. Perhaps on the football field, or who he knows of, or is known of by mutual acquaintances. In your teens you have friend everywhere. If they’re your age they’re friends.

     • It’s nearly impossible to roll a blunt (or black and mild) with marijuana in the rain. Actually, it is impossible. But, a blunt (or black in mild) in its original tobacco form could definitely be smoked in the rain (though it was more than likely smoked under a house/clubhouse awning). I have a strange feeling a partially smoked blunt (or black and mild) will be mentioned during the trial.

       • At what point would the police have become aware that anyone’s smoking materials of any kind would have any bearing on this case?

         What could or would they have found where any kind of chain of evidence could be claimed?

         Unless they found a cigar with both Martin’s and Zimmerman’s DNA on it, or something totally bizarre, unexpecteded, and completely out of left field like that.

         unitron

         • I suspect around the same time Brandy Green is called to the stand as a witness.

           “Trayvon was never allowed to smoke cigars while at my house and we found a half smoked black and mild on the back porch.”

           I’ve wondered the same thing though — when does evidence like this need to be revealed? Or, does it never need to be revealed until the trial?

198. In this exercise, I focused on the noise made by GZ exiting his truck.
     The idea behind that work was to check that 2nd door slamming noise claimed by some and check whether it it could in fact be jumping/stepping noises made by GZ when exiting his truck.
     My conclusion is that it probably is 1 jumping & 2 stepping noises on a hard surface.
     Why could it be important? Because, if I’m correct, he exited on the road side and not on the grass side. Another indication that he was indeed parked facing west (the pool).

     Here are the corresponding cut of the NEN call and the graphic analysis of it:
     http://kiwi6.com/file/ngoyze5tic
     http://kiwi6.com/file/833dk711m6

     The reenactment video shows that there is no sidewalk where he parked.
     

199. How come we didn’t get a nice letter from GZ’s father like the Nuthouse did ?
     http://imgur.com/mUiFc

     • ROFL. Wow. Thanks for posting, Leelee. The Nut House acting responsibly and knowing facts, lol. LOL. OMG, LOL. Dying right now. The comic relief is much appreciated.

       • We never got an invite to sit and talk with O’Mara, either.

         sob sob waaaahhh

         :))

200. OK, here’s a question for those of you who are more familiar with the evidence lists than I am:

     Did either Trayvon or GZ have a cell phone headset?

     I don’t recall seeing that a headset belonging to Trayvon was found, but I may have missed it. “DeeDee” assumes TM was using a headset, because she says “somebody pushed Trayvon, and the headset just fell,” cutting off the call. A cell phone user using a headset can look like a confused person if you don’t see the headseet (say it’s under the hood of a sweatshirt), walking around seeing to speak to no one. A cell phone user WITHOUT a headset looks like someone talking on the phone, because they are holding something up to their ear. So if TM was NOT using a headset, it becomes really hard to imagine GZ observing him near the clubhouse, then TM ‘circling’ past the truck, without noticing where the young man’s arm is being held, and this case gets even weirder.

     DeeDee says Trayvon saw ‘the man’ watching him from a car while talking on the phone. I am convinced DeeDee has added some details to her account that she did not actually hear, in order to make her story more damning to GZ, perhaps subconsciously rather than in calculation, perhaps influenced by media accounts and speculations, and that she did so entirely on her own, without any sort of ‘coaching.’ So, I consider it possible that TM may NOT have seen GZ on the phone, and DeeDee just added that to make things line up, since by the point she gave her first everyone knew GZ had been on the phone to the SPD NEN. But if TM could see GZ was talking on the phone, that means GZ was not using a headset. There is no point on GZ’s call where the audio quality changes consistent with a change in microphones, as you would hear if a headset was plugged in after the call started. So was GZ running around The Retreat with a flashlight in one hand, and a cellphone held to his ear in the other? It seems unlikely, given the audio characteristics of the call, though not entirely impossible perhaps.

     But again, I don’t recall mention of a headset for GZ anywhere, and I haven’t combed over all his recorded interviews to see if he ever mentions one, or ever mentions that he is holding his phone to his ear…

     • There was a headset used by Trayvon, it is in the evidence list. I think DD is %100 genuine; the reason I think this, is that there are too many recordings, witnesses, etc. She wouldn’t know what to say to try to boost the case in any direction, and there are too many unknown details that she wouldn’t have, that police would have. I think she is just saying exactly what she heard to the best of her recollection. When we first heard her interview, we were thinking “OK, she is confused; there are too many times she said GZ chased TM” but now we realize that TM was chased about 3 times. The “he’s got something in his hands” and “acting crazy” are probably due to the use of the cellphone and headphones. He probably had the cellphone in his hoodie pocket.

       • Yes I confirm the evidence list includes a headset for Trayvon. Also he was clearly seen using one in the 7-11 video.

         Which means we should totally discount any theories involving his having the phone IN HIS HAND while talking to DeeDee and/or while fighting with GZ (and of course, using it as a weapon).

         If the phone is in a big diagonal hoodie side pocket and the headset wire or clothing gets yanked, the phone is likely to fall out, disconnecting the headset. Also it is likely to fall out in any big struggle.

         We really need someone with two willing helpers, to reenact such minor details of the events, in various scenarios, and VIDEO THEM. This would save us a lot of guessing and let us concentrate on actions that can provably produce the results we see in the debris field. The prosecution should be doing this but we don’t know if they are or not.

         The whole fight scenario needs filming with actors, too, to show what scenarios could have resulted in several witnesses seeing only ONE person. At night, in similar clothing. I’ll allow the comfort of doing it on a DRY night.

         So okay, which of you has a video camera and a couple of biggish sons and a darkish yard with some grass? you can lay out some newspaper to indicate the concrete path. Set up the cameras at the angles where the witnesses were.

       • For GZ only a phone is ever mentioned, Blackberry, and I think he was allowed to take it home at the end of the night. It’s not in the evidence list. Singleton used it on the first night to get out the contact details for the HOA managing agent, to ask about the CCTV videos.

         • Zimmerman’s email logged timestamps are off by a different time zone. Pointed this out months ago at viewfromll2. Not sure it still exists. I think it was in evidence dump 1 where Dorival replied to Zimmerman’s email prior to when Zimmerman’s email timestamp occurred — or visa versa. Going on memory. All I remember is that either Zimmernan’s service provider’s or Dorival’s (presumably SPD’s) mailstamper’s times were not in sync.

     • I too confirm that the headset in the evidence list is TM’s.

       There is no mention of a headset owned by GZ anywhere, but there is Manalo’s picture of GZ’s bloodied head that shows GZ on the phone. There is no headset.

       You can download that picture from here: http://k005.kiwi6.com/hotlink/igt1e00585/gzpix_jmanalo_1.bmp

       Whonoze: “There is no point on GZ’s call where the audio quality changes consistent with a change in microphones, as you would hear if a headset was plugged in after the call started. So was GZ running around The Retreat with a flashlight in one hand, and a cellphone held to his ear in the other? It seems unlikely, given the audio characteristics of the call, though not entirely impossible perhaps.”

       Have a detail listening of GZ’s NEN call. You’ll notice a few instances of the dispatchers voice being fed back when GZ is out of his truck. It’s like a very subtle echo. I can help you with hearing that if you want. Such return never happen with headsets or with a cell phone properly placed against the hear.

       It looks like GZ was holding his cellphone with one hand and the flashlight with the other.

       One point, the picture from Manalo shows GZ using his right hand to call. I know he is lefty from the video of the interrogation, but it might be things he does regularly with his right hand.

       • Whonoze, which side you use the phone would depend on other things. I hold the phone with my left, if I need to “dial” so I can use my (dominant) right for that, and leave it free for other things, like writing notes. In GZ case he may have been tucking in his shirt or adjusting his holster at the same time. Also it would depend on which EAR is better.

       • A left-hander holding their phone in their left hand has their dominant hand tied up holding the phone and unavailable for anything else where the dominant hand is preferred, so for them to hold it in their right hand makes perfect sense.

         Which is why I, who am right-handed, hold my phone in my left hand.

         I’m not even sure if I know how to punch the number buttons on a phone with my left hand.

         unitron

     • i think it’s possible for a young girl to confuse a few minor things with what she has seen on the news, it would be hard to remember the details because at the time she didn’t know the significance and like some of the witness have confirmed that sometimes there are assumptions made without even realising. I’m sure she got a few things confused. I think the main thing is that going by the time of the call it is almost certain that she was indeed on the phone with Trayvon up until the confrontation started…..unless zimmerman was waiting in the shadows until the call finished, then it is safe to assume that the call actually did end once Trayvon bumped into GZ again. If she was coached, or if she was going to embelish the major points then there would be nothing stopping her saying something that incriminated GZ more than just the very believeable “why are you following me”…”what are you doing around here”. She could have put the nail in GZ’s coffin by including a threat from him or something, but instead her account of what happened sounds very likely….gz was out sniffing around, Trayvon thought he was safe because he ran behind the houses where this creep couldn’t drive his car, and then GZ finds him, awkward encounter leads to confrontation. So i think she may have been a little confused by media etc but the way it ended sounds very likely without too much, or any, embellishment.

       • It is Dee Dee’s dialect that makes her believable. I believe she says, “Why are you following me for?” It looks like a mistake made by young children, but it is indeed a dialect where there is no difference between what and why. I grew up in Florida and am very familiar with his way of speaking. She is not savvy at all and likely at her age she wasn’t watching/reading much news. The way she speaks also supports this.

         • Add… We’ve been studying this case for months and we still don’t have enough info to ensure that we could fashion a lie, that would help TM, hurt GZ and not be discovered. She also would not know what might be possible from what would be impossible.

           Also, I’m fairly certain she’s been warned that any lies could damage her boyfriends cause. My guess is, therefore, she’d try her level best not to do anything like that. Her only real interest in this case is to see justice done for her boyfriend and she can’t reliably fashion falsehoods to do it, because she simply doesn’t have enough information. Thus, all she can do is tell the truth. Any differences between the truth and what she appears to have said are, therefore, a matter of speaking differences, rather than an attempt to fashion a falsehood.

         • @SanSan

           Please help me understand what you mean by her dialect makes her believable. I do believe DeeDee is not very savvy, but you don’t have to be savvy to be honest/truthful. You don’t have to be savvy to be dishonest or untruthful either.

           I found her believable also. In that she’s not able to verbalize properly to Big Bernie D where Big Bernie D wasn’t able to understand/hear what she was saying, I find this a failure of both DeeDee’s communication skills as well as Big Bernie D’s hearing abilities or exposure through experience talking to possibly underprivileged or possibly unlearned people.

           I didn’t find her dialect making a difference, iow. If anything, her lack of savvy/polich while demonstrating the ability to comprehend what the “learned professionals” assumed by picking up on their cues about what they thought she was saying and her ability to go back to HELP THEM COMPREHEND made me wonder if she’s very intuitive in her communications skills.

       • Sorry my comment was meant for Whonoze!

     • It is Dee Dee’s dialect that makes her believable. I believe she says, “Why are you following me for?” It looks like a mistake made by young children, but it is indeed a dialect where there is no difference between what and why. I grew up in Florida and am very familiar with his way of speaking. She is not savvy at all and likely at her age she wasn’t watching/reading much news. The way she speaks also supports this.

201. Thoughts..

     The case presened has paramedics claiming there was no blood gushing from Trayvon Martin’s gunsot wound. Now that we have the picture evidence of Trayvon Martin’s bloodied innter sweatshirt and his outer hoodie, how do we reconcile the paramedic’s statement that there was no blood?

     Old questions must be resurfaced based on the pics released in doc dump2. Why isn’t Trayvon Martin’s bleeding wound not found as evidence on George Zimmerman’s clothing now that we know Trayvon Martin bled like a normal human after a gunshot wound that Zimmerman claims occurred while he was underneath his gunshot victim?

     • Bleeding pretty much requires blood pressure if it’s to overcome gravity.

       A heart that’s been shredded into hamburger by a hollow point does not pump.

       No pump, no pressure, just like your engine oil.

       unitron

     • TIME.

       Things don’t happen instantly. Even “killed instantly” is not instant: it takes a few seconds for the heart or brain to stop. Individual cells in the body may not die for hours.

       Anyway. The blood from the heart and lungs accumulated in the chest cavity. In any position other than lying totally flat, a substantial part of the chest cavity would be below the level of the holes. So the blood would be draining downwards, internally, not outwards externally.

       The only blood available to go outwards at first would be from the chest muscles, and that’s light enough to be absorbed by the clothing for the half second it would take GZ to get out from under (if he was really ever there). Then poor Trayvon lay face down, flat on the grass, his chest filled up with blood, and THEN it would start coming out through the hole and soaking his clothes.

       That said, I do find it odd that not a single drop ended up on GZ. Also that not a drop of his ended up on Trayvon. If it weren’t for the witnesses who saw them rolling around together, I’d say these two were never in any kind of physical contact at all.

202. Just sharing a tidbit of information that may be one more insurmountable obstacle for GZ – listening jailhouse call 52 on soundcloud http://soundcloud.com/producermatthew/sets/george-zimmerman-jail-house/ , GZ laments to SZ that they didn’t have his car to use to pick him up because all four windows had tint. How does Trayvon stare at him and he has tinted windows? It also would add to Trayvon’s fear and a prolonged look at GZ. Also, one story we heard but not heard anymore is that GZ had his window down. I suspect this was a lie because of the tint in the window but quickly forgotten.

     • Did he specifically say car and not truck?

       And why wouldn’t the truck be available?

       It’s not like it got seized as evidence.

       unitron

       • You can check the call. It is 52. I don’t know why it was not available. He drove a rental to Jacksonville the first time. He was so concerned about safety, he may have thought the car would be recognized.

       • He says truck. It’s at about 14:14.

         • Thanks, CSFC – I really, really didn’t want to listen to that call again, lol. At the time I noted it in a tweet and realized it was important but didn’t realize the weight of it.

           If anyone is interested, a group of us on twitter are recapping the calls. I’ve created a storify with recaps and discussion. There are also translations from Spanish.

           You can check them out here….

           http://storify.com/princss6

           • Cool idea!

     • Nice find @princss6. The soundclick link gives the dates of all the calls.

203. I have a new scenario/hypothesis I’d like folks here to consider. I posted it in a reply to Screamin Jay under comment 191 above.

     • Whonoze,

       I love it! This is the east-side version of the previous hypothesis that was that TM ran south on TTL.

       It would start more or less like this:
       A – 7:11:41 GZ is in his truck. TM starts running toward the T.

       B – 7:11:45 GZ is out of his truck and tarts saying that TM runs down towards the back gate. That suggests that TM already turned south at the T, and that 1) he was at the TTL end of the sidewalk when he started sprinting (running really fast), or 2) he already was on the sidewalk when he started running. Option (1) reqiures TM to be running really fast, so I’d lean on option (2).

       C – 7:11:53 GZ starts running after TM. By this time, TM is easily half way down the first block of townhouses.

       D – 7:12:11 GZ says “He ran”. GZ can only be at the T at this time. It also means that his truck is parked ~160ft west of the T which is right before TTL’s eastern curve. That itself kills option 1 in B => TM had already walked to the T when he started running. This is also inline with the fact that TM walked about 30sec after passing GZ’s truck.
       In the time from A to D (30sec), TM could have easily run 270ft which would have placed him just one townhouse block from home. Instead, he decided to hide. This is what DeeDee says (“So he lost him. He was breathing hard. And by the sound of his voice, his voice kind of changed. […] His voice was getting kind of low, a little bit low.”).
       TM had to hide early enough to lose GZ. So, he probably hid at one of the two cuts closest to the T. There are two options again: 1) either he hid at the east cut, or 2) he hid at the west cut. Either way, he stayed there for sometime to check if he was still followed.

       E – 7:12:15 GZ stops running. GZ must still be near the T then. According to the theory, he keeps on walking toward RVC to have a look to the east gate. However, I believe he stayed at the T for a little while.

       F – 7:12:17 GZ clicks his flashlight on without success suggesting he prepares himself for going in the dark . He starts tapping it 4sec later suggesting that it was not working. I believe GZ had to be near the T trying to get his flashlight on in order to walk into the darkness. Since the flashlight fails, GZ resumes walking toward RVC to check if TM is overthere.

       G – 7:12:38 GZ is on RVC. He can’t see anyone there. He tries again turning on his flashlight. On the NEN call tape, he sounds frustrated. Anyway, he moves on heading toward the back gate.

       H – 7: 7:13:08 Tapping noise again. GZ is at the first cut. He desperately tries to get that flashlight on.
       Dispatcher asks GZ about meeting where he is, where he lives, where to meet. GZ is giving up but still think possible that TM is on the dogwalk..
       It is about at this moment that TM ends up being more to the north relative to GZ. He soon resumes walking. As DeeDee puts it: “So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy. […] He said he ain’t gonna run, ’cause he said he’s right by his father’s house”.

       I – 7:13:18 GZ agrees to meet police at the mailboxes, but suddenly changes his mind. He may have spotted something moving south on the dogwalk pass the cut between the two townhouse blocks He gets suddenly excited and starts walking south while asking dispatcher to get police to call him.

       J – 7:13:34 GZ hangs up and starts jogging south to the next cut.

       K – ~7:14:04 GZ corners TM on the dog walk right by the cut.

       L – ~7:15:04 GZ & TM are back to near the T for their last confrontation.

       Oh crap!!! I miss 30sec at least! The start is not too bad, though.

       • Checking again, GZ runs for about 30 seconds, his breathing getting increasingly heavy, and with consistent ‘wind noise.’ This suggests he does not pause during this period, but runs straight through until he gets to the loud clicking. Depending on his pace, he could cover between 90 and 150 yards in that time. His truck was probably no more than 80 yards from the T when he left it. So it’s possible he was only at the T when he stopped. But more likely he was further, on RVC if he did indeed go that way.

         If we assume Trayvon could run faster than GZ, he could have reached the second set of cut-throughs, only one building away from home, before GZ got to the T. But what if GZ’s flashlight was WORKING at this point, and began pointing it down the sidewalk as he cleared the side of Jennifer and Jeremy’s townhome. Trayvon might have been able to see the beam, but also see that it had not caught him. Also, by this time he would have run far enough to be winded enough to need a breather. So he could have ducked into the lower West cut-through even though he was close to home to avoid being observed. He waits there and watches, and the beam disappears. But Trayvon’s too far away to tell whether ‘the man’ has gone on East down the sidewalk, or has just turned off the flashlight and is coming down the sidewalk in the dark. So he continues to watch and catch his breath until he’s sure GZ isn’t approaching. Then he emerges from his hiding spot and strats down the last 35 yards to Brandi Green’s back door. But by then GZ has had enough time to walk all the way down RVC and across to the South end of the sidewalk.

         Trayvon sees the figure emerge from behind his home building almost immediately. Not 100% sure that’s it the same guy who was in the truck, but thinking that’s a pretty good possibility, he immediately turns around and begins walking North because GZ is actually closer to his back door than he is at that point. Also, he wants to see if the figure continues to follow him (as opposed to continuing West down TTL rather than turning right on the sidewalk). But, of course the figure does follow him. He looks back and is now sure it’s the same guy who was in the truck. He tells DeeDee the guy is behind him again, following him again. He also tells her he is not going to run because he is close to home, even though he is walking AWAY from home, because it’s just not right to run (suspiciously!) on your own damn block.

         Of course this is all extraordinarily conjectural. It fits within the plausible factors of time and space established by the physical evidence, but so do any number of other possible scenarios (just not any of the ones offered by George Zimmerman). But at this point it seems to me the best way to explain the amount of time that lapsed between the end of the NEN call and the beginning of the confrontation, and also to account for how Trayvon could have wound up back near the North end of the sidewalk while being winded as DeeDee describes.

         For example, had TM just hidden somewhere near John W6’s he would not have been winded at all. And had GZ gone over to RVC, and then just walked back toward his truck, at even a toddler’s pace, not enough time could have elapsed to fill the gap between the end of the call and the start of the fight — unless GZ was into TM [as in the Maharishi Maresh Yoga, not Trayvon Martin] and assumed the lotus position and meditated on the situation while chanting the magic word “Om” for a few minutes. And somehow, I don’t think he did that.

         • PERFECT! explains/resolves most, if not all issues (time lapse, how they ended up where they ended up, etc.) I hope state, i.e., Mr B. DLR reads your analysis!

       • Whonoze,

         From my records GZ ran for 22sec based on the wind interference.

         The first indication GZ has a flashlight in hand is a clicking noise just 2 seconds after he stopped running. I believe GZ was turning on the flashlight at that point.

         The first indication the flashlight isn’t clicking on is the tapping noise just 4sec after the clicking noise.

         “unless GZ was into TM [as in the Maharishi Maresh Yoga, not Trayvon Martin] and assumed the lotus position and meditated on the situation while chanting the magic word “Om” for a few minutes. And somehow, I don’t think he did that.”

         Why not?

204. Some folks here have taken exception to my assertions that DeeDee is not a reliable witness. It seems my critics have not actually read my post on the subject at http://whonoze.wordpress.com/2012/06/16/deedees-account/. To CCFC I never use printed transcripts because they always have errors. For my blog post, I first created a paraphrase of DeeDee’s interview with BdlR to make the gist of her statement more comprehensible. This part of the post does not take up the ‘red flags’ in her remarks at all.

     Here’s MY transcript of the ‘problematic’ segment 100% verbatim (I had edited the version on the whonoze post a wee bit for length, in ways that made DeeDee seem less unreliable, if anything…).

     BdlR; Did Trayvon ever say the guy’s coming at me, he’s gonna hit me.
     DeeDee: [very quietly] Yeah. You could say that.
     BdlR: No, I don’t want you to guess. Did he ever say that?
     DeeDee: [after long pause, still quietly] How he said it, he just…
     BdlR: [interrupting] No, no. Do you understand? Did he say that or not? (pause) If he didn’t say it, that’s alright. I.. I.. You understand, I’m not trying to get you to say anything…
     DeeDee: [interrupting] No, he got.. The man got…He got problems. Like he crazy.
     BdlR: Trayvon told you that? Or is that…
     DeeDee: Yeah…
     BdlR: OK.
     DeeDee: …the man lookin crazy.
     BdlR: OK.
     DeeDee: Looking at him crazy.
     BdlR: When did Trayvon tell you that?
     DeeDee: When he was walkin.
     BdlR: OK. But you didn’t mention that earlier. That’s why I asked you that.
     DeeDee: Yeah, walkin’ home to dad house
     BdlR: OK. Right.
     DeeDee: And when before he say he gonna run..
     BdlR: OK and he’s saying the guy looks what?
     DeeDee: Crazy.
     BdlR: And did you say ‘what do you mean?’
     DeeDee: And creepy.
     BdlR: Did you say ‘what do you mean by that?’
     DeeDee: [quietly, trailing off] I said what you… [louder) Cause he said this dude is like WATCHING HIM! Like WATCH…
     BdlR: [interrupting] OK, so that’s what he meant, the guy keeps watching him.
     DeeDee: Yeah
     BdlR: OK. OK All right.

     So when CCFC said ” ‘you could say that’ means nothing more than ‘you’ve paraphrased what I meant correctly’ ,” CCFC is engaging in wishful thinking that is simply not supported by the recorded statements. Here’s what happened:

     a. BdlR was questioning DeeDee about the moments just before the confrontation she heard began. He asked if, at that point, Trayvon said GZ was coming to hit him.

     b. DeeDee said, yes, you could say Trayvon said GZ was coming to hit him. Due to the way she said this, BdlR easily recognized that would be a lie. He warns her he wants to know only things Trayvon actually said.

     c. DeeDee, caught, attempts to retreat by asserting that Trayvon said the man was ‘Crazy’ and ‘Creepy’. BdlR, alerted to DeeDee’s embellishing, first asks her when Trayvon said that, and DeeDee retreats some more, identifying this as a remark Trayvon made minutes earlier as he first walked toward GZ’s truck.

     d. BdlR continues to interrogate the ‘Crazy and Creepy’ comment, and DeeDee begins to lie again in her “I get really REALLY quiet when I’m BSing” voice but thinks better of it, and refrains from claiming that she asked Trayvon anything, instead going back to her earlier emphasized language of “He said this man was Watching Him!”

     e. So then BdlR realizes that’s all he has here. Trayvon said the man was watching him, probably in a tone that conferred concern, back around 7:10:30 as TM departed his rain shelter near the clubhouse. That’s it. DeeDee has inferred from this that the man was crazy and creepy, and Trayvon never used those words, much less telling her he felt GZ was going to hit him.

     I think DeeDee is probably a pretty normal 16 year-old emotionally, which means she’s still enough of a child that you can’t trust her accounts of anything to be “objective.” We on bcclist may feel sympathetic to her for any number of valid reasons, but the segment above is part of a sworn statement in the possession of the defense. The issue is not whether CCFC or Lonnie or anyone else here finds DeeDee credible. The issue is whether a jury will find her credible after a defense attorney cross examines her and presses her, not only on the exchange above, but other elements of her statement as well.

     I had imagined that Mark O’Mara would know how to cross DeeDee effectively, that he would be smart enough to avoid risking the appearance of bullying a child, and be gentle in tone rather than aggressive toward HER, while being assertive about the problems with the THINGS SHE HAS SAID to make the jurors sadly conclude that this poor young girl just can’t be trusted. But with GZ going rogue, who knows if MOM will even be around for the trial, or whether GZ will demand that whoever stands up for him in court must treat any witness who would dare to question the righteousness of St. George as the vile scum he no doubt sees them to be.

     In short, things are strange now, but may get a lot more strange as the long trip unfolds.

     • Your points are well taken and your submissions in support of your arguments are well founded. All I can say is, we’re lucky that all the witnesses here have flaws. The only witness missing is TM and I’m sure he’d have flaws as well, if he could be present.

       At least the prosecutor can put Dee Dee’s flaws down to a childs urge for revenge at the loss of her dearest friend. So a jury won’t judge her flaws to harshly, since she’s easy to figure out. Jurors, by the time a trial ends, realizes that most of the witnesses have to be “figured out”, rather than simply taken at their word.

       So, even as this tape/transcript shows that Dee Dee has tried to lie, it also shows that she’s ineffective in doing so. I think the jury will convince itself rather easily, that they understand Dee Dee and can put aside her attempted lies. The defense will have no way to overcome those feelings in the jury and it will be just too dangerous for them to try.

       After the defense is finished, the prosecution will simply come back and ask her just how close a friend she was with TM, how often they spoke, and perhaps give her a moment of reflecting that might bring a tear to an eye. The incredible damage to the defenses examination will be irretrievably done! It’s probably better that the defense tread ever so lightly over Dee Dee and be done with her as fast as is humanly possible. She’s a terrific sympathetic figure, every second she sits on the stand, attempted lying not withstanding, is a second on the road to doom for the defense.

       In fact, I think the prosecution will cleverly open doors, that will be bait to get the defense to keep her on the stand. If they go for it they’re toast!

       • Despite DeeDee being so inarticulate, it’s not a stretch to believe TM was at least weirded out by the creepy guy. The prosecution doesn’t need DeeDee to paint the picture of a cowering, frightened little boy. He was a teenager! The fact that TM ran and GZ says so on the NEN call (not skipped, like he later claimed) meant that he was unnerved enough to want to get away from GZ. The jury can make up their mind whether her account of the words “What you following me for” and “What are you doing around here?” then THUD, “get off, get off” are more believable than “Yo homie, you got a f**ing problem?” and “No man, I don’t got a problem” then WHAM! Next witness.

         • Inarticulate is subjective – I think too those who can code switch and speak AAVE she sounds like a young child, intimidated by the process. She sounds like a 15 year old in any urban area with a southern accent. If we are too accept her manner of speech leads to a perception of her being less than credible, then we need not have a justice system in urban areas because the majority of witnesses (compelling) sound just like her.

         • @princss6, sorry that didn’t come out the way I intended. The sentence should have read “Despite DeeDee being so inarticulate and not clearly able to explain how she knew TM was scared, it’s not a stretch…..” Being inarticulate doesn’t mean not credible. It just makes it harder to get the message across. The prosecution can’t let the jury try and “infer” what she means. By inarticulate, I meant that she generally gave one word answers to things and that forced the interviewer to offer scenarios to pull more out of her, making it seem like they are leading her. If that happens on the stand, then it won’t look good. Now I wish that she can elaborate more on TM’s general character, expand on “Funny….a mama’s boy” to dispel the myth that he was just a thug looking for a fight.

         • I’m pretty sure that teens who say “Please” and “thank you” to store clerks, don’t use “homie” and “You got a problem?” with strange adults. I don’t think the jury is going to find much at all to support any definition of TM being a street wise thug boy. None of the elements of that are there.

           Dee Dee is not articulate, so what she’s trying to say has to be “teased” out of the total narrative of what was/may have, been taking place at the time.

           I think the jury will find it most notable that, up until GZ’s story has no one to challenge it, TM is frightened and running away from a crazed man. Only after GZ is the only one talking, does TM become this superior opponent. So superior, it is supposed, that GZ can do nothing but lay helplessly taking a terrible beating, until he is able to remember to draw his weapon and shoot.
           Exactly the kind of story you’d expect from a person who has needlessly done a terrible thing!

           GZ will have to find a way to explain his prowling the neighborhood in his truck with his lights off. He will have to give times and places/routes of his patrols and who accompanied him on these patrols, and/or who mounted any such patrols on their own. Since there is evidence/testimony that he and others do engage such patrols, yet they all deny patrolling as well. So that needs to be explained, as well as what GZ does with his weapon when he goes on these patrols. Without being forthcoming about these matters, the jurors will be left to their own devices, to figure it out for themselves. That will not be good for the defense.

           I’m sure that someone with credentials will inform the jury of the scope and nature of NW, as well as the “why and wherefore’s” behind the rules. So, without GZ being able to explain the various roles he played, the jury will have no choice but to believe that GZ was a rogue NW’er.

       • @Lonnie

         I think if Shellie Zimmerman ever gives her hubby up, it will be about his habit of illegal patrolling. Maybe as NLME says, his texts and phone records to cover will wind up made known to the public.

         When and if that stuff does show up, I’ll be watching for the timestamps because his communications via email with the SPD (Dorival I think) indicated either SPD’s timestamps or Zimmerman’s are incorrect.

         • GZ has a great big problem with his NW. He will first be shown to be the proud leader of it, then he and his fellow NW’ers will be shown bragging about the results of their patrols. Next will come the evidence/testimony that GZ doesn’t do patrols, and, of course, the fact that the NSA rules prohibit patrolling by NW’ers. So, the SP will show that GZ carries his gun while walking his dog, while going to the store, while prowling the neighborhood at night, with his lights off. The picture of GZ’s NW operation is going to begin to look very ugly indeed, in light of this concluding event. Nor will it help matters any for the jury to learn that GZ his wife and FT show up in the immediate area where robberies have occurred. Which, in light of the very ugly operation of NW, that suggests something very nasty as well.

           Add to the mix GZ’s wannabee cop dreams, hanging out at the station, magistrate father (whom I’m sure is called Judge), and the Osterman Resource and his creds, and you have the makings of an ever more disgusting picture of justice denied, when you factor in the 46 days of public outrage it took to get this case on the docket.

           We might forgive the police the confusion that allowed GZ’s vehicle to escape detection/collection, but the police are supposed to be more methodical than that. I’d expect that the NEN operator to have reported to the lead investigator at the scene that there was a vehicle involved, or some routine like that. With today’s hand held devices, it’s not unreasonable for the lead investigator to already have a list of 911 callers in hand as well. The SPD lacks important basic routines, and it is thus that Osterman and SZ are able to spirit evidence away from the scene. We couldn’t fault Shelly for this, since she obviously has no way to know better. But Osterman has the credentials that says he not only knows better, but knows that what he’s doing is a crime itself. Him not being charged is only going to make matters look worse if the jury somehow is allowed to find out.

           So, as I see it, the jury is going to see a very messy and dangerous operation of NW by GZ, with possible SPD collusion. GZ is surrounded and steeped in enough law and information to know that his operations are outside the rules, yet he continually evades responsibility by deceitfully concealing that he is on patrol. He has been warned that his actions might lead to just this conclusion, an innocent person being killed, yet he does nothing to stop himself until it finally happens, then he lies about his own actions to cover up the fact that he created the problem!

           And all of which comes in, before we learn that GZ has no qualms about lying to the court. Before we learn that he’s killed the suspect he claims he didn’t follow, at a location where he had to follow the suspect to get to. The jury will probably bring back a verdict of murder One, just on the general principle that GZ constantly maintained a dangerous pattern of operations that were expected and explained would lead to just such a situation as this. He kept doing it until he finally had to kill some innocent person, just as the NW rules said he would if he broke them.

     • I don’t agree with the perjury assertion. She inferred that the man was going to attack TM. She says “Yeah, you could say that”… in other words, “yes, you could characterize it like that” because “I inferred from from what Trayvon had said, that he was afraid of this crazy creepy guy”. The other thing – bumped – good luck with that… Someone bumped or pushed someone, she wasn’t there to see, but she was assuming someone bumped Trayvon, because after all, a minute later he was murdered. So from her perspective, TM went from fleeing and being scared, to then being confronted by the stranger, then a struggle happened.

       • I so agree. The creepy guy was getting close to him and Trayvon Martin said he thinks the creepy, crazy watching and following him by car then by footchase is about to do something to him. I so don’t find this hard at all.

         I do want to understand why other people find black teen’s fears of stalkers in the night different from their acceptance of white people’s fears (regardless of the age of the white person) to be a different human experience. I also want to get an understanding of why an inarticulate black teen’s account raises suspicion to the level of questioning her credibility. Perhaps there’s a basis I’m unaware of of?

         • “I also want to get an understanding of why an inarticulate black teen’s account raises suspicion to the level of questioning her credibility.”

           I would hope her being black has nothing to do with it here. If someone questions what she has to say, the same arguments could be made if she were an inarticulate white teen girlfriend of the victim. However, to be objective in this case, people should be allowed to question anything anyone says until a satisfactory conclusion can be made. Sometimes we question accuracy, sometimes we have to question credibility. Just look at how the other witnesses’ statements had changed over different statements and it put them into question. We make judgements on the credibility of their statements based on a number of different reasons.

           Unlike the other witnesses, however DeeDee is a close friend and her testimony could knowingly OR unknowingly be influenced by her relationship with the victim. That’s what is going to be scrutinized at trial. The defense will try their best to say she was influenced by the media hype and the family’s lawyer. We’re all human and it’s natural to “pick a side” and defend it rigorously. That’s why there’s a pro-GZ and a non-pro GZ side. But we would be seriously be held back if we always stuck to a certain notion, i.e., DeeDee’s an innocent bystander and no one can label her testimony as inaccurate, or GZ’s evil, so therefore everything he says is a lie.

           It’s informative to dissect a person’s tone of voice and manner of speaking (did they hesitate? are they confident in what they’re saying? did they give a consistent answer when asked about the same thing on different occasions?), in order to assess the accuracy of their information. If there are inaccuracies it doesn’t always mean the person is willfully lying, just inaccurate….we make notes and then move on.

         • What I got about Dee Dee was, she is extremely familiar with TM as they’ve talked at length over a number of their formative years. Thus, she’s able to pick up the many non-verbal clues as to TM demeanor and what he means, even when he doesn’t put it in words. So, she’s trying to convey that, but, she’s also aware that what she’s trying to convey, hasn’t been put into words by TM, but that’s what his communications were making her think. After all, she knows him well enough to do this sort of “reading into the mind”, because TM knows her well enough, to know how to create impressions for her. So they don’t need many words between them to grasp what the other is thinking or will think.

           Note that she even separates her musings about what was said, from what was actually said by “you could say that”.

       • @Was So Interesting

         Well said. I really don’t see the problem in questioning her statements (or anyone’s). I am actually really happy to see that we are willing here to question and look critically at both sides. It makes me feel like we are a step up (at the very least) from GZ supporters who refuse to question witnesses like John, but denounce DeeDee as a liar. For me, it has nothing to do with her being black, and I hope none of us here on the blog would for that reason.

         I have the user handle I do for a reason, lol. It’s just my nature to question everything and everyone. I’m like that annoying little kid who asks 5,000 questions and comes up with fantastical theories, etc. With DeeDee, though, I question her for the reason’s why I question GZ’s friends/family. Most people want to protect their loved ones. I question her because of the addition to her statement about hearing TM, but IIRC, in a previous statement she could hear them arguing, but couldn’t make it all out, or something along those lines. I also listened to her tone of voice, and thought maybe she was exaggerating then backtracking. However, I also noted she doesn’t talk out of turn much, and is brief, only seeming to the answer the question presented her. Her quiet tone could indicate reflection, rather than deceit followed by backtracking; she could just be trying to elaborate. In addition, she seems to speak even more softly when BDLR begins to speak louder…she’s a young girl, so she could just feel intimidated.

         I just don’t get the vibe that she has been coached or is willfully being deceitful. I think she’s trying to recall all she can about that last conversation. She wasn’t there to see, so all she has is what she heard/was told, and how she interpreted that. I don’t have anything to go on at this moment to think/feel otherwise about her statements.

       • I still say inarticulate is subjective. I also think that is based in part on none of us being in the room during the interview. I think her accent is the reason because she has NOT changed her story. She is 15. She is obviously polite. She is sitting in a room with a group of men with authority who are unfamiliar to her, grief-stricken and guilt-stricken. I’m sure if she was talking to a group of her girlfriends (who sound just like her) she would be more effusive in her answers. How many teenagers do you know would walk into that situation and be able to hold their own?

         I also suspect that there are non-verbal cues and gestures that we can’t possibly know about that is shedding light on her testimony to BdlR OR she would not hinge so prominently in the probable cause affidavit.

         I just don’t know how someone can characterize her as inarticulate when she sounds like she is crying – one and two the majority of the questions are structured in a way to get a yes or no response. In short she is a reticent witness/victim who prolly doesn’t trust BdlR because remember at this stage in the game, if I’m not mistaken, charges had not been filed yet. She has seen LE sweep this under the rug. She has the weight of whether her friend’s murder is prosecuted on her shoulder and people are discounting her because she doesn’t sound like a Rhodes Scholar?

         Context and recognizing that unlike the other witnesses, she actually has a human, emotional connection to the person who died and all other factors, to me explain why she is guarded not that she is inarticulate.

         And this isn’t about questioning her testimony at all. Instead of saying, I don’t understand what she is conveying – (onus on you (general)), it’s oh she is inarticulate. Question her statements but to assign a value to her based on what? Her accent and her lack of effusiveness given the totality of it all…I disagree.

         But I’m glad you explained and I think we may be pretty much on the same page. I think by the time she is 17 (when this will probably go to trial), you will SEE a more self-assured assertive teenager on the stand. Well, maybe if the Pro-Zimm camp doesn’t finish the job of trashing her and some in the pro-Tray camp don’t undermine her by saying – we.dont.believe.you because WE don’t think you speak the King’s English.

         • Great post, thanks Princss.

           • Thanks, Loree. 🙂

         • @princss6, you’re right, DeeDee’s a teenager with a lot on her shoulders and under pressure in the interview. Like you said, I hope she holds up at the trial too. I’m a “bit” older than a teenager, and I can hardly understand most of them in any situation LOL.

           Just for reference, I found the following video of an interview with one of TM’s friends. Other than DeeDee, I had never seen an interview with any of his friends. He says he hung out with TM on the weekends, that TM was non-confrontational and quiet if he didn’t know someone. That kid sounded genuine but looked nervous talking on camera as most kids would. That’s the thing, TM was a teenager and so are his friends who may ultimately have to be his defenders, if the defense insists on characterizing TM as a thug. It’s unfair that they should be forced to come into the spotlight because a guy shot their friend and blamed it on him.

           • I didn’t see the friend on that link…it was just to a newscast. If you can find the link, please post. Thanks!

           • Thanks for those links. I did not see that interview. We need to hear from more of his friends that interacted with him on a daily basis before his untimely death. He sounded very genuine to me.

       • @qetno –

         Totally agree, except for exaggeration part. I just don’t see it. What I hear is annoyance and maybe impatience that the interviewer doesn’t understand what she’s saying and that she keeps having to back-track and re-explain herself.

         Her “by his da’s house” turned into the offensive “on his ass” by the interviewer.

         This is a child that takes a different meaning to “yelling at him” versus screaming. I don’t understand the difference, but who knows what this means to youngsters.

         I recently “had a talk” with a teenager that flipped me the “gnarly dude” sign. Glad I did because my talk was about the “f you” sign which I found inappropriate and disrespectful in addition to being quite out of place for that particular child. LOL

         But because we were able to have that discussion, I was able to understand that it wasn’t a disrespectful insult hurled at me.

       • @princss6 –

         That was very well said, imo.

       • @Loree and CFSC – it is just ironic that there earwitness who obviously would have gaps because she is only using one sense is being perceived as less than credible by ummm…earwitnesses of her statement. No she doesn’t have the coordinates of where he was at, what he was doing, etc. Even eyewitnesses cant fill in all the blanks but nope, if DeeDee can’t produce a bonafide schematic with field notes in newscaster diction, then she is worthless???

         • You are so on POINT!!!

       • @CSFC

         Well, I thought she might be exaggerating when I first heard her statement(s). Actually, it was more like I found some things a bit odd sounding, and I knew that the defense and GZ supporters would zone in on certain aspects.

         I found it odd how she repeatedly and insistently stated that he didn’t have the hoodie on/up, and how she makes sure to mention it was only up because of the rain. I really don’t think this is that big of a deal. It could be completely true that he took his hood down then put it up again; it could be true that he mentioned that to her. “Hold on, babe…gotta adjust, it’s still raining, should put my hoodie on” or something along those lines isn’t really hard to believe. I’ve had conversations like that a number of times. Sure, she may focus in on that because she’s heard that it’s important. I also knew people were going to go calling her a liar when she added that she heard TM tell GZ to “get off.” I suppose I question why she didn’t mention this the first time around, BUT, I do remember hearing from the earlier interview that she did say she had heard them in the background. I also noted when she said “You could say that.” I initially found that a bit off, but it really does sound like she’s trying to say that is what she was told, but not in those exact words. It didn’t seem to me like she was just telling him to say whatever he wanted in order to make GZ look bad. If she wanted to make GZ look bad she could have said so much more.

         Rather than lying, I think she was likely trying to emphasize that TM was absolutely not the aggressor, and that it was the other person. Sometimes emphasizing can make it seem as if it is being dramatized or exaggerated when that’s not the intent at all. I also got the annoyance/frustration factor from her. It was also said she sounded and appeared to be very distraught when interviewed.

         Overall, I don’t think she’s pulling lies out of no where to implicate GZ. She may be emphasizing points, but I doubt that she’s trying to outright lie. Her statement is a hell of a lot more believable than GZ’s, and as far as we know, she has a whole hell of a lot less credibility issues when it comes to GZ or *anyone* on that side, lol. Her statement also seems to go along with other witness statements. I still say the phone records existence says enough. He was on the phone, he had ran…is that really the most probable scenario for an attack? NOPE.

         • Phone records is enough for me.

       • Can anyone confirm that DeeDee’s account at 2:25 in the video below is or is not from the same call reported by ABC, or do you think this was in a different call with the local TV station. I think the transcript on the screen is off, and also, this is the first time I’ve heard her say someone said “What” before TM was pushed.

         Hope I posted the right video this time.

         • I’m confused (and on the WordPress app). I thought I fixed something correctly a few minutes ago but if not — and if this is now correct — I’ll leave everything as is.

           • @NLME, sorry, yes you did fix my first mistake in #204, thank you. But then stupid me, I went and tried to post another video in #204 and it’s saying “internal error, highly trained monkeys are being dispatched to fix the error” So then I tried to post it as a new post #214, and it gave me the same message. I then just replied to myself in #214 and gave a term for people to search for the video I wanted them to see.

             • Cool. I’ll take a look at comment #s tomorrow when I’m on the site and make the changes as need be.

       • Being in Australia, I can’t code switch at all to understand DeeDee’s southern AA dialect by ear. I can understand it well enough in transcript though.

         I think what’s been called “inarticulate” is mostly that it’s dialect. She seems confident enough to correct the interviewer, as impatiently as she dares with this figure of authority.

         But this seeming inarticulateness is to her advantage. It is CONSISTENT. There are no sections that were written for her and she had to learn. Everything she says is in her own “voice” — her expressions, her dialect, her mannerisms. She wasn’t coached.

         Now if only they’d SHUT UP and let her finish a sentence or line of thought……

     • Wishful thinking? Not hardly.

       Supported by “evidence” as defined by is a different matter entirely. Matter of semantics. Have you seen the public interviews that have not been introduced as evidence?

       http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897

       No offense, but I rarely blindly accept other people’s analysis when I have already performed my own. It takes strong evidence to make me dismiss what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears. In the matter of DeeDee’s statements, I read your analysis and was grateful that someone took the initiative to begin a transcription.

       I didn’t agree with your conclusions or assertions or the reasoning put forth to suggest DeeDee’s statements were questionable, dishonest or lacking credibility. I haven’t read your updates. Maybe you’ve modified it/cleaned it up by now that more info has become available and to more clearly explain your suspicions about DeeDee. I don’t know.

       Again, DeeDee had multiple interviews. Some with govies and some not. In one of those recorded interviews, DeeDee said that Trayvon told her the the guy [Zimmerman] was “about to do something to him”. I heard the audio myself. That’s the context of my “paraphrase” opinion. I believe ABC had a video of the interview. Maybe it was CNN.

       So, if you don’t accept DeeDee’s statement that zimmerman was “about to do something to him” as a paraphrasing of an imminent attack by Zimmerman to Trayvon Martin’s person, what exactly do you think DeeDee meant Trayvon Martin was telling her on Trayvon Martin’s last phone call? The question from Big Bernie D was “Did Trayvon ever say the guy’s coming at me, he’s gonna hit me.”

       Begin relevant part of your transcript:

       BdlR; Did Trayvon ever say the guy’s coming at me, he’s gonna hit me.
       DeeDee: [very quietly] Yeah. You could say that.
       BdlR: No, I don’t want you to guess. Did he ever say that?
       DeeDee: [after long pause, still quietly] How he said it, he just…
       BdlR: [interrupting] No, no. Do you understand? Did he say that or not? (pause) If he didn’t say it, that’s alright. I.. I.. You understand, I’m not trying to get you to say anything…
       DeeDee: [interrupting] No, he got.. The man got…He got problems. Like he crazy.
       BdlR: Trayvon told you that? Or is that…
       DeeDee: Yeah…
       BdlR: OK.
       DeeDee: …the man lookin crazy.
       BdlR: OK.
       DeeDee: Looking at him crazy.
       BdlR: When did Trayvon tell you that?
       DeeDee: When he was walkin.

       End your transcript

       I can’t seem to grasp what your point is about DeeDee’s statement that causes your doubt about her credibility. I really don’t get your suspicions that DeeDee’s “you could say that” is her paraphrasing of what she stated she was told to her by Trayvon Martin during her call.

       As I’ve asked before, please explain/clarify. I honestly don’t get your gripe with DeeDee’s statements.

       • My gripe with DeeDee’s statement is that while it seems to be generally accurate, she has embellished details at several points in a way that will hurt her credibility at trial, and potentially discredit her entire testimony with a jury.

         I have written as many or more posts on this forum pointing to the ways Corey’s prosecution is covering up the institutional racism of the SPD, SAO and Rick Scott’s voter suppression drives, so if you want to accuse me of bigotry in analyzing DeeDee “good luck with that.”

         I have suffered a bit of TM/GZ exhaustion, and have not been able to complete detailed analyses of other witnesses. I just happened to look at DeeDee first. IMHO John W6 has tossed of whoppers compared to DeeDee white lies, and IMHO Jennifer and Jeremy are also not telling anything like the whole truth, and have made a number of utterly dubious statements.

         “Have you seen the public interviews that have not been introduced as evidence?” Uh, that’s an oxymoron. AFAIK, DeeDee has been interviewed twice, once by Benjamin Crump over the phone, and once by BdlR in person. Matt Gutman of ABC was present at Crump’s end of the phone interview. The recording of the Crump interview included in the discovery is largely unintelligible, and also missing a large section. I am certain that another separate recording of this interview was made by ABC news, and it is from this recording that all the sound bites used on the ABC stories have been drawn. Proof that it is the same interview comes from those soundbites ABC uses that match parts of the Crump recording exactly. Proof that there are two recordings comes from the fact that several of the ABC soundbites are not in the Crump recording at all, and correspond to the parts of DeeDee’s story that are missing in the Crump recording.

         ABC has not even admitted the existence of a separate recording, much less made it available to anyone, so it’s hardly public.

         “It takes strong evidence to make me dismiss what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears.” Well, the whole point of the whonoze blog is that people think they are ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual things when watching and listening to media recordings without any understanding of how the technologies involved mediate the experience. So here’s a bit of fact for you: some of those sound-bites you heard on the ABC stories were edited. On ABC DeeDee says, “The man come and said what you doin’ around here. Somebody pushed Trayvon. Cause the headset just fell.” What DeeDee actually said was: “The man come and said what you doin’ around here. And then, they’re like pushin’ And you can know somebody pushed Trayvon. Cause the headset just fell.”

         So, all you heard with your own ears was a section of an audio recording, taken out of context, and possibly manipulated in ways you do not have the ability to recognize. You did not hear an actual human being say something in person.

         Now, as an experienced audio editor, I might have made this cut myself, simply to get a clear soundbite that makes the point and fits the time hole. We only have an inferior recording of the uneditied statement, but in that the words “And then, they’re like pushin'” are hard enough to make out that they may have been been a bit confusing even on a clearer recording. But even with the bites they did use, ABC put the words on the screen each time, lest any viewers have difficulty understanding DeeDee.

         But what ABC did there, regardless of intention, is create the impression that DeeDee reported GZ started the physical confrontation by pushing Trayvon, when in fact she didn’t say that at all. Her actual words indicate she doesn’t know who started the shoving, which is probably the truth.

         Personally, I would be inclined to give DeeDee a break on the few things she has stretched for a variety of reasons. Certainly, once she has heard her own words back in the media enough times, that’s going to affect her own memory, and how she phrases things in any future interview. At 16, no one is mature enough to say “Well, Mr. de la Rionda, when they played clips of my interview with Mr. Crump on ABC I think they edited out some little bits, and what I actually said was….” But in this context, thinking like a defense attorney would have to think, when DeeDee tells BdlR “I hear something like: BUMP. You could hear that Trayvon buh… Somebody bumped Trayvon.” do you think she has simply tripped over her words here, or started to tell the truth and then realized she has deviated from her narrative and corrected herself?

         Why this is sad is that it doesn’t make any difference if Trayvon shoved GZ first. GZ had been following him, answered his ‘why are you following me query’ with an aggresive ‘what are you doing around here?’ and was no doubt ‘up in Trayvon’s face’ at the time. And bumping or pushing hardly qualify as assault (a long way from a punch to the nose).

         DeeDee is working TOO hard to make GZ look like the bad guy. The main giveaway to this is her many repeated references to Trayvon’s hoodie. “He put his hoodie on.” A detail I find it very hard to believe a young man in that situation would even mention, much less emphasize. But by the time DeeDee speaks to Crump she is well aware of the symbolism of the hoodie, as it is not only the dominant media trope offered as an explanation for the shooting, but has been adopted as a symbol in public protests, internet protests, and on the floor of the US Congress. So she makes a big point of the hoodie over and over, to the point where it sticks out like a sore thumb. This is one reason I am convinced she was not coached by anyone — no sharp adult would encourage this focus on the hoodie…

         And FWIW, having taught inner-city kids, I know it’s possible to speak in a ‘black’ accent, employing the dialect of grammatical variations now labeled as ‘Ebonics,’ and be very eloquent. I do not say DeeDee is inarticulate because she is not speaking standard English. She is inarticulate in the context of effectively spoken Ebonics. This is not a judgment against her person. She’s young, has probably been stuck in crappy schools, and inhabited a not very enriching social and cultural environment (though enriching environments could be available entirely within African-American subcultures, but sadly even those fail to reach many of our young people…). It just ‘is what it is.’

         I hope, if she does testify at trial, the prosecution will prep her to stick to the facts and avoid the interpretations, which will be damning enough to GZ. And then, if the defense hauls out her previous statements and asks her why she’s dialed some things back, she can just say something to the effect of, “Well, I’ve had time to think about it, and I realized some of the things I said before might have come from mixing up some of my emotions with the facts, because, you know, my friend had been killed and I was in shock, and trying to understand what happened. But I understand now that this is a trial, and it has to be as fair to the defendant as it can be, so now I’m only saying things if I’m absolutely sure about them.” That would get her off the hook, I think. But if BdlR et. al. don’t prep her correctly, and she goes on about the hoodie, GZ being crazy, GZ pushing first, “Get off me!” and so on, O’Mara or West will be able to cut her testimony to shreds.

       • You have no idea if she has embellished points because you were not there on the phone that night. Is this a case of what she said not fitting your theory?

         As to your other points, we will agree to disagree. But I will point out that she is still a child and I will also point out that the Pro-Zimm supporters are trying to trash her as well.

         Is it at all possible that to see her testimony would offer more insight than the half-baked view we have because we can only hear it.

         And if her vernacular presents problems for some, that is their problem, not her problem. Maybe wider exposure would be the answer not the dismissal of her as a credible witness.

       • @whonoze –

         I haven’t accuse you of bigotry. Not even sure where that came from. I would like to point out, though, that you have no clue as to what I’ve seen unless I’ve *said* I’ve seen it. Please don’t make assumptions about what I’ve seen based on what you may have seen and no need to try to put words in my mouth.

         The link to the snipped up version on ABC is not the one I saw originally. I originally heard a much fuller recording at the time DeeDee was being discussed. The one I posted yesterday was the closest thing I could find yesterday without expending more effort than I currently find its worth. I’ve already heard it!

         Thank you for clarifying your view. As I’ve said, I disagree. As an FYI, it’s not an oxymoron. I agree the speakerphone interview Crump provided is unintelligible.

         ” Proof that there are two recordings comes from the fact that several of the ABC soundbites are not in the Crump recording at all, and correspond to the parts of DeeDee’s story that are missing in the Crump recording.”

         Maybe that’s why they’re disappearing?

         “So here’s a bit of fact for you: some of those sound-bites you heard on the ABC stories were edited.”

         OK. But the part I wrote to that addressed your suspicion was not.

         Again, Trayvon told her the the guy [Zimmerman] was “about to do something to him”.

         Are you suggesting that part of the interview was spliced?

       • @princss6 –

         “Is it at all possible that to see her testimony would offer more insight than the half-baked view we have because we can only hear it.”

         To me, that’s why this is worrisome. Popular opinion is that the State shouldn’t call on her as a witness. I’d like to see a transcript of her testimony presented by the State. Only then will we be in a position to see if the State wrote up the same inaccurate transcripts that are floating around in the blogosphere and get to work contacting the State.

         I haven’t seen one accurate transcript of the interview to date.

         • Popular opinion also says GZ should never have been arrested.

           • Just goes to show that “popular opinion” was wrong! 🙂

             I have always suspected that popular opinion is made up of a bunch of angry, unproductive, unemployeds that have no real idea of what’s going on in the world beyond what Fox tells them as their asses spread from sitting on the couch. One of the reasons I love the Internet is that everybody can watch and report and provide a view from the POV of those that don’t have the time to watch Fox shows all day.

             I am glad Zimmerman has been arrested. I can now look my young male loved ones in the face and say “see! I told you so! The bad guys *do get arrested. Don’t follow their path to destruction!” They didn’t believe me when I told them there are more good people in the world than bad and that they shouldn’t buy into the hype that any white guy will always get to escape when he kills a black teen.

             Good/Bad/Evil is evident among all races and I will be damned if I will sit idly by as my young black teen family is beat down into low self -esteem despite their aspirations just because ignorant people are conditioned that one thug makes all black teens a thug as they attempt to legalize gunning down any black teen.

             Just as it is unacceptable to society that we can’t go about popping off teens wearing muslim garb or teens with turbons or teens wearing skull masks or teens with green hair or teens with fully covered/obscured faces wearing ski masks or tattoos, we can’t as a society allow some lobbying group with “connections” to the Murcochs to make it acceptable to represent and push laws forward that cater to people who are afraid of black teens just because they are black teens.

             I meant to share this video earlier:

             I don’ know LMPapa, but I know he’s a family man and he’s saying he’s taking a stand because he doesn’t want this to happen to HIS SON. Same, same for NLME not wanting this bull to take down his nephew.

             It’s unacceptable. I WILL NOT BUY A GUN to respond. I bought a hoodie instead.

             • @CFCS

               “I told them there are more good people in the world than bad and that they shouldn’t buy into the hype that any white guy will always get to escape when he kills a black teen.”

               And this is 2012. And yes, far too many do believe this and have every reason to do so. I think a salient point missing isn’t so much who GZ is but it really is who Trayvon was. Far too often, the murderers of young black men, especially if white or law enforcement never see any consequences for their actions.

               This case is loaded with all types of issues regarding the state of our country.

205. Florida man charged with hate crime says he ‘only shot a n*gger’ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/31/florida-man-charged-with-hate-crime-says-he-only-shot-a-ngger/

     (sorry for the vulgar racial slur)….

     Another one is at it again. Reminds me of an episode of Kung Fu I once saw, where they put a guy on trial, and his defense in the courtroom was “Yeah I killed a Chinaman, so what! I enjoyed it! It’s not like he was a real man or something”…. (Needless to say, he was convicted)

     • So sickening.

       Under a rock living is finally becoming clear to me.

       So very sad that adult education/remediation for older folks raised under different guidelines is not mandatory. Along with pre-k, we need post-k.

       Real men aren’t afraid of other real men of varying races. Guess that’s why women are leading the anti-discrimination race forward.

206. Does the end of DeeDee’s account dovetail or overlap with witnesses 11 and 20, Jennifer and Jeremy? Forget what Zimmerman says for a bit.
     DeeDee ends up with the verbal, “Why you following me”, and “What you doing here?” This turns into a shove, the phone going distant, and Trayvon saying, “Get off”.
     Jennifer begins with a loud verbal exchange of three phrases, and a 20 second scuffle across the grass.
     Specifically, do you think these verbal exchanges are the same event? Maybe Jennifer just didn’t hear the words as clearly as DeeDee did because she was inside her house with the TV on. And could they both be describing the same scuffle?
     Jennifer says the argument sounded like it was coming closer to her house but she can’t really tell from which direction. There might have also been an echo factor with the sounds bouncing off the exterior walls.
     This overlap could be possible from what we know of DeeDee’s call ending in the 7:15 minute (?) and Jennifer’s 911 call starting at 7:16:11 when the cries had begun.

     • SJ, Jennifer (1211 TTL) is clear about the argument moving from north to south. Jonathan (1221) is the one who says the argument was moving toward him but could no tell from what direction.

       • I thought Jeremy, Jennifer’s husband, also said in one of his statements that he did not know which way the voices were coming from, either. Am I mistaken about this?

     • Jay,

       You should use the witness summary we made (imgur.com/a/bcAII). This is really helpful.

       Jennifer said the argument was moving north to south.
       Amanda & John said the argument was moving toward them.
       Jeremy made no comment that I know concerning the direction the argument was moving toward.
       Suzanne said she glanced/heard 2 then she said 1 person running north.

       • What about the “shadows moving left to right? Who said that and what would it indicate? Wouldn’t that be moving from south to north?

         • Yup — Witness 2. Gilbreath mentions the shadows ad nauseum during bond hearing one.

           1:37:00, 1:44:00, and 1:48:00 marks here:

           http://t.co/pbAFUCRt

           This makes me suspect they have more evidence about their northwardly movement.

       • Notice how clear ABC got DeeDee’s phone statements to Crump. I wish I could hear the whole first interview that clearly.
         By the way, I remember a press statement Crump made describing his first DeeDee interview. About 15 minutes long. It was before the recording was released. He kept raving about how this “connected the dots”. He thought it fills in the missing time from NEN to 911. I do, too. Does anybody still have that video of Crump? It was on YouTube but I can’t find it now. Do you remember it?

       • I mis-remembered that it was Amanda w17 who said she was bad at judging the direction of movement when only hearing it. Sorry, I thought Jennifer w11 said that. I just listened to both again. My bad.
         We are realizing that the encounter was dynamic with movements all over the back yards. Trayvon initially had run south (“He ran”). The encounter probably moved south to north, then south again. I can see GZ holding on and Trayvon doing the equivalent of a gymnastics floor exercise in order to break free. But GZ just wouldn’t let Trayvon get away. In the process GZ gets banged up on every bush, tree, sign, and sidewalk in The Retreat. Mad as a hornet but he still won’t let go.
         A couple of things:
         – it seems that the struggle became basically stationary by the time the screams for “Help” begin. I believe GEORGE’s gun was out at this time and it became a hand/wrist wrestle.
         – witness 2’s glance came during this time and could not have been either Trayvon or GZ running. She estimates her glance was 15 seconds before the shot. GZ and Trayvon were on the ground at this time. It could have been Austin chasing his dog north. She knows this timing because after glancing down she went immediately from the back room to the hall and had just made it into the front room when the shot went off. No more than 15 seconds. She didn’t have glasses or contacts on at the time.

         Thank you all for allowing me to put in my 2 cents.

       • I feel like i miss out on so much. I have not listened to dee dee’s testimony, or listened to anything else for that matter so i feel a little out of the loop but geeeeez u guys are onto it so it’s in good hands. I would have a better chance of hearing a pin drop at a Metallica concert than hear any audio in my house as Batman and Spiderman don’t know how to whisper or even talk at normal decibels, so i’ve never even heard dee dee speak (yes i live with Batman and Spiderman at the moment, i can’t complain, last month my boys thought they were Dora the Explorer)…..

     • @Screaming Jay –

       Yes. Witness 11’s statements dovetail DeeDee’s. The other point that DeeDee made was that the phone was knocked to the ground and hit a not hard surface (the grass). Trayvon Martin’s phone was found in the grass near his dead body — not near the Tee.

207. No head banging. Did any witnesses see any head banging?
     John, w6 came outside and looked. He supposedly looked into someone’s eyes. John didn’t see any head banging going on!
     Austin watched the struggle for about 10 seconds. He didn’t see any head banging.
     Witness 19 was out with her dog and didn’t see any head banging.
     Mary Cutcher even said there was no fighting going on at the time of the shot – not even wrestling. I never thought that was possible due to the accuracy of the shot.
     Cross exam: So when was the head banging? Ask him, “How many times was your head banged?” Frequency? Time in between?
     He said for a whole minute. One of these witnesses would have seen it.
     I don’t think there was even one head bang. Here is where it came from. One of George’s advisers told him to make his injuries seem like Trayvon caused them. So, his head scratches turned into head bangs after the fact. Just like the scratch in his nose turned into a punch.

     Other bad advice:
     “Tell ’em you spotted him at Frank’s house.”
     “Tell ’em he attacked you at the ‘T’.”
     “Tell ’em it was you who was screaming.”
     “Tell ’em you were looking for an address.”

     • I’m still looking for a place where GZ can get his wounds and have dried blood on them 15 to 20 minutes after the claimed fight.

       • Some non-tainted possibilities are the sign, the poop station, the tree and a possible square register position in the grass (if it’s already been damaged and had jagged edges) and the bushes between the unpaved cut-throughs. I think somebody posted a video or pic of the broken register here, but I can’t recall who. If it was hard plastic or concrete, it could possibly do the trick.

         Other depraved mind types of possibilities are Zimmerman’s honda key, the tweezers taken in evidence, a sharp object in Zimmerman’s uncollected wallet, Zimmerman’s flashlight, Zimmerman’s gun via blow-back after the shot, Zimmerman’s gun itself. Also, of course, Shellie could have scratched him before he left home.

         • So far I’ve found only one “ball park” on blood drying, I’ll post it again here:

           A guy who claimed to have a spatter lab said:

           “A drop of blood dried in 70 minutes, on a hard surface at room temperature (72º) in low humidity”

           There are a tremendous number of variables that could come into play and which is probably why other expert won’t bother to tackle the matter of giving out any averages. Who said this is unimportant, what is important, if you consider it to be so, is that this can be replicated within some reasonable range of the circumstances for that night. Where the temperature was 60º, the humidity was high (raining) and the surface was skin (soft, oily and wet).

           Given the givens, I’d say that blood would take longer to dry on that night, if anything. So, when paramedics say they scraped dried blood from GZ’s head, how long did that blood have to be their to dry?

           My, very rough and unconfirmed idea is, it should have taken at least 70 minutes or more to get dried blood/scabs on a GZ wound that night. If so, then the wounds precede the TM – GZ encounter. And they would at even half of that 70 minutes. So there’s the question.

       • I’m still trying to get past the reiteration of “ow ow” or something along those lines being said by Zimmerman as part of the conversation he said he and Trayvon Martin experienced and how this lines up with the paramedic saying Zimmerman said “ow ow” when the dried blood was being forced off his head during the cleanup of his wounds at the scene.

         The other thing is, when dried blood is forced to be removed to the point of it being a painful “ow ow” experience, doesn’t opening that scab cause a re-bleed?

         • Scab removal will almost certainly cause re-bleeding, unless the wound beneath it has already closed. In this case, I’d suspect that the wounds were so slight, that they could easily close, or dry up, in under an hour, as razor induced wounds are known to.

           But then, where does all the blood come from? Obviously, if removal of scabs causes the bleeding to restart, paramedics are going to take dramatic remedial/antimicrobial action, yet none of that is in evidence. This, according to the story GZ would have us believe, would have the paramedics sending him off to the station, with open wounds bleeding, and left without salve or bandage. Totally unbelievable to anyone who has had paramedic attention.

           But, if it is true that “a drop of blood on a hard surface, dries in 70 minutes at room temperature in low humidity”, then it must certainly take longer for that same blood to dry in high humidity at 12 degrees less than room temperature and on a soft, wet, oily surface to boot. Then, even before I attempt to make any adjustments for the difference, by lengthening the time, I instead cut the time in half, and it still precedes the “fight” by almost 10 minutes.

           Then too, remember that I first posted my suspicions that the blood/wounds might be older than the fight, way back before the evidence dump, back on our first board. Now that FT and MO as well as SZ’s whereabouts and actions are unaccounted for during these times, but there is a suggestion from the evidence, that they may have been out and about in the neighborhood, we can speculate that these wounds may have been created earlier on a “just in case” basis. As in: “Just in case” they are needed to explain the intended grabbing and holding activities that may have been planned “at all costs”.

           “I grabbed him and held him at gunpoint because just look at me covered with blood”. Of course, that planned scenario would deteriorate substantially, once GZ realized just how feeble and harmless TM would sound upon any later questioning. With TM sounding like a weak, helplessly frightened child, who will crumple to tears at the first hint of aggression, it wouldn’t do to allow such a contest to be exposed to prolonged public examination. Thus, the only way GZ can portray TM as anything even close to a threat, is if TM cannot be examined first hand. GZ has a lucid moment in his “caped crusader” fantasy, and realizes that he, himself is in some very serious trouble! I.e. he has committed a felony and the bloody wounds will not work as an effective cover unless… GZ gets to write the rest of the story alone.

           • A drop of blood is something different than what is on his head. Imagine a droplet of blood on a glass slide. Its surface tension will hold a fair amount of blood together in a thick droplet. What is coming out of his head is streaming down his head and face, so we’re talking about a blood TRAIL drying. Much thinner amount of liquid than a droplet. Maybe that accounts for it.

             • Thinner to be sure, but we have no idea where or what kind of scabs were found. I only post so that we’re aware of how critical this info could be, if it is discovered. And, of course, one has to factor in that it was raining so even those trails, covering soft oily skin, with sweat glands, would likely have an impact on how fast the blood could dry.

               Although I discounted the dried blood at the nose, since that is obviously an extremely thin streak. I got the impression from what I’d read of a paramedics statement, that there might, very well have been scabs found over the open wounds in some areas.

               Still, TM can’t handle GZ’s head, or punch him in the nose, without getting dna on them, so there really isn’t any fight, that’s just made up stuff by GZ.
               The cartilage of the nose holds many oil glands, and that oil will smear on the hand that touches it, and it will contain dead cells which offer dna. There’s always cells flaking off the head and face, they’d mix with the oil on any hand that touches it, especially hands that do so with vigorous movement.

               Then, to that we have to add GZ imposing figure as a fully grown adult, who is heavier and quite a bit more agile than TM who isn’t quite coordinated yet.
               A youngster, alien to fisticuffs for all practical purposes, going against a professional bar bouncer and security muscle man, is hardly even to be considered possible. GZ’s story is just an insane dream borne of a need to say anything at all that might justify his horrible actions. He decided that NW rules were getting in the way of his ability to become a hero, so he decided to go rogue and become a vigilante, while trying to also preserve the appearance of being a proper NW’er.

               My guess is; his going rogue, while trying to preserve his NW mantra, would probably indicate he should be wearing some kind of bleeding wounds, “Just in case” he needed to explain why he had to hold someone at gunpoint. Unfortunately things just didn’t go as planned. He would probably realize that a crying child would not also be a credible attacker, so his bloody beating story would not hold up, if TM lived to tell his side of the story in that scared childlike voice and manner.

               GZ’s worst nightmare would be, to be caught fighting with an unarmed innocent child while armed. Things only get worse if TM can say that GZ had a gun, because of CC, TM is not supposed to know GZ is armed, and can’t know it unless GZ brandishes his weapon.

             • “GZ’s worst nightmare would be, to be caught fighting with an unarmed innocent child while armed.”

               This was literally Zimmerman’s worst nightmare. In fact, I think he’d rather be in the position he’s in today than be known as the nut job (former, I’ll guess) neighborhood watch captain in Sanford that goes around profiling, chasing, confronting, apprehending, etc. unarmed teens walking home from the store with some snacks.

             • If in a weak/heated moment, GZ displays his weapon. He doesn’t have to draw it out, all he has to do is show it. Then he knows that in the aftermath, TM will mention the gun. Under concealed carry, TM is not supposed to ever see the weapon. If TM sees the weapon then GZ has committed a crime under these circumstances. GZ, with his knowledge of police procedure and law would know that he faces criminal charges. His only way out, to attempt to preserve his persona as the “courageous NW captain” is to pull the trigger and silence TM. Leaving GZ free to concoct the story of how a “mama’s boy teen” disabled him with a single punch to the nose, then, just using his hands alone, managed to cause GZ to fear for his very life!

               Not in human memory has an unarmed, non-combative teen, been able to make a bigger, heavier adult male, fear for his life, simply with the use of his untrained and uncoordinated hands. …And, without leaving any evidence that he even tried to boot!

             • Lonnie Starr said:
               > If in a weak/heated moment, GZ displays his weapon.
               > He doesn’t have to draw it out, all he has to do is show
               > it. Then he knows that in the aftermath, TM will mention
               > the gun. Under concealed carry, TM is not supposed to
               > ever see the weapon. If TM sees the weapon then GZ
               > has committed a crime under these circumstances. GZ,
               > with his knowledge of police procedure and law would
               > know that he faces criminal charges. His only way out,
               > to attempt to preserve his persona as the “courageous
               > NW captain” is to pull the trigger and silence

               Brandishing doesn’t work this way. If your shoulder holder accidentally “prints” against your jacket, or you bend over and your shirt rides up exposing a waist holster, it isn’t brandishing. And in a “he said, she said” type situation, all the gun owner has to say is, “I threw my hands up in exasperation and my shirt rode up high enough that he could see the gun, officer”.

               Brandishing is usually an extra charge tacked onto an assault charge. Specifically in Florida, brandishing is a misdemeanor.

               2011 Florida Statutes:
               790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—

               If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

             • Your points are well taken. I do believe what you have described is correct for a “generic” non threatening situation. Of course, if GZ shoots TM, which he did, that means that he did pull his gun.

               What I was addressing was the hypothetical that would exist, if he merely displayed his weapon, within the frightening situation he created for the child.
               He’s followed the child and cause him to fear for his safety. He was in the wrong for doing that! But, if he also let TM know that he had a weapon, and TM had lived to talk about it, it would not be good for GZ at all! Since the claim of TM that he’d been illegally pursued, illegally caused to fear for his own safety, against the NW rules GZ claimed did not apply to him, because he wasn’t on patrol, even though he admitted that he’d taken the time off, from his trip to the store, not to wait for an officer to respond, to instead follow the child, in the dark and in the rain. All, while having witnessed no crime he could claim as a cause for his actions. Then display of his weapon takes things to a whole new level. Since GZ is not supposed to be following and frightening anyone and he’s certainly not supposed to be armed while doing it.
               Any display of a firearm would be a rather dreadful way of causing TM to be catastrophically frightened for his life.

               This is no public place with others present, nor is it, or can it be, considered an accidental display as you’ve addressed above. So that in hindsight, if TM had lived, and had been able to say something about GZ having shown a firearm, the context of this situation would make the matter much more serious than the ones you describe.

           • There is no way Zimmerman’s “concealed carry” permit licensed Zimmerman to brandish his gun with the purpose of intimidating or threatening anyone. There’s equally no possibility for Zimmerman’s supposed concealed weapon to have become exposed accidentally. It was holstered in his pants (so Zimmerman says). A shirt rising in a wrestle could never cause exposure of a gun on one’s arse.

             Zimmerman either had the gun out and at his ready before the confrontation, or he took it out approximately 40 seconds before the shot was fired. Trayvon Martin screamed for help for about 40 seconds, right?

             • I think GZ had his gun out for more than 40 seconds, since one’s first reaction to seeing a fire arm, is not to scream for help right away. The first reaction would be intimidation and silence, watching the gunman carefully to assess his intentions. My guess is the screaming started after GZ said “You’re gonna die tonight”. GZ forgets that not just anyone can kill someone!
               Most people can’t do it without a good bit of training, and some can’t do it even then. Given TM’s lifestyle/history, I sincerely doubt he could intentionally kill anyone, probably not even an animal. It would just be too traumatic for him to bear. Thus, TM would have no use for the phrase “You’re going to die tonight”, because killing anyone would just not enter his mind at all.

               As for the proposition that Trayvon is capable of killing someone just for following him, it’s insane! Trayvon doesn’t even own a gun, never has!
               The chances that a kid, still in school, who doesn’t hang out with criminals, is going to even consider such unpleasant thoughts as killing anyone, is nothing short of ludicrous.

               There was only one person there who owned a fire arm, and therefore had to have given some thought to the matter of killing someone, was GZ. Since that also means that he had to have given some thought about being killed himself, he had to be very careful not to even risk losing control of his gun.
               You don’t carry a weapon and forget that you have it when you go hunting.

       • Oh, plus 70 hours makes me wonder what may/may not have happened up to 3 days before this killing.

         • Do you see some evidence that opens the way to a need for such speculation?

           • LOL – Please disregard. I was so tired when I posted that. My pee-brain transformed 70 minutes into 70 hours without event thinking.

             • Done!!! I’ve disregarded it! LOL! I just suspected that you’d misposted, but if you had not, I didn’t want to take the chance that some avenue of thought might escape attention. As long as there is a basis for it we proceed to test notions, a liberty the official investigators probably don’t have much of.

208. Do you guys think the prosecution has indication that GZ was tipped off about Trayvon? Phone records and such?
     This would mean a lot no matter who told him.
     It would mean that going to get groceries at Target was a lie.
     It would probably mean that Trayvon was already in The Retreat, and George did not spot Trayvon until at the clubhouse. This may also be proven by the timing of when Trayvon was at the mailboxes and that George left home later. So, the whole first part of the interrogation accounts and the re-enactment are made up. These make clear that GZ would not have seen Trayvon wandering around looking at houses (something he repeated twice on the NEN call).
     It proves PROFILING! It shows GZ was applying his hatred for goons and their behavior to Trayvon at the beginning of his call. He was transferring his previous observations of burglars and criminal types onto this kid.
     And as someone else said, it would indicate he didn’t just happen to have his gun. After the tip he took the gun out to hunt. Whether on official Neighbor Watch or not, the jury won’t like the hunting part. It’s just wrong.

     • Yup — In my opinion, the phone records are possibly being sealed so that an eventual jury pool doesn’t get anymore tainted.

       • Do you (or does anyone) remember what allows them to remain sealed until trial? Is it simply because it is not considered public information even under FL Sunshine Laws?

         I’m still wondering what the comment about TM’s father (the one that BDLR alluded to in the initial bond hearing) was about… I want those freaking phone records, lol!

       • There is also a possibility that the FBI has some records, they would not have to turn those over in any state discovery.

       • @qetno –

         I think at one of the bond hearings, Judge Lester said exposure of the calls were irrelevant at that particular junction and could subject the people zimmerman talked with to unnecessary public exposure. Not sure if we’re talking about the same set of calls, though. He may have been referring to the jail calls.

     • In the reenactment GZ points to where he first saw TM. That location is back behind a car, or somewhere on the end of the cut through.

       Now, consider the conditions such a view would have been made under.

       a) GZ would have been moving along, at about 30 mph, on a right bending roadway in the rain.

       b) The position he points to as TM’s position, would be a little better than a 90 degree turn of his head to the left, to peer into the darkened cut through, through a rain speckled drivers side window.

       c) He has a less than a 1 second view to make his assessment as he passes.

       d) In order to have seen TM advance out from the cut through to the walkway and grass near the road, GZ has to have stopped on the road for several seconds. Otherwise, in the next 2 or 3 seconds, while TM is covering some 15 feet, GZ will be around the turn and on his way out the gate. It just isn’t likely that GZ will have taken his eyes off the right turning road, and kept looking left at an ever increasing angle, while his truck traveled over some 120 feet or more.

       e) While on TM’s side of the equation, if he’s emerging from the cut through to see a truck suddenly slow and stop across from him in the rain, he’s got to think something is strange at that point in time.
       Now GZ is saying in the reenactment, that he’s observing several seconds of TM’s movements in detail. Something he could not do if he was moving!

       f) Now consider TM’s alternative travel paths. After GZ passes to park at the clubhouse, TM could have turned and gone up RVC!
       So then, how could GZ have known that a spot at the clubhouse would be the next place to view TM’s progress from? Unless TM had already crossed the road, and was using the sidewalk on the other side, which leads past the clubhouse.

       h) GZ makes no mention of watching TM cross the road, but says he merely spotted him there by FT’s and that he GZ continued around and parked at the clubhouse, where he waited for TM to come along. Which TM apparently does in about ~5 seconds! Which puts TM completing a 1 minute 20 second walk in ~5 seconds??? Hardly, but more likely, after having been watched and followed around for about 1 minute and 15 seconds before GZ parked at the clubhouse.

       i) I would think that if TM was followed around on a 1 minute 15 second walk, he’d have already notified Dee Dee that he had something strange on his hands, but that doesn’t happen. In fact, the videos can’t place GZ at the clubhouse in the time slot GZ talks about. Making it much more likely that he wasn’t there.

       Thus the evidence suggests that the events from the cut through by FT’s house to the clubhouse are fabricated to conceal, not only a spotter, but patrolling as well. Since his trip down RVC on a shopping trip, more likely than not, puts him out the front gate and off to the store, if TM was by the mailboxes before GZ arrives in the general area. Or, if TM were really where he first locates him as being, in the reenactment.

       The key to separating the fact from the fiction will be in the time line of when GZ really left home. Because the window for him to actually see TM is very tiny indeed, if his story is to be believed. And TM would likely have recognized that he was being followed almost as soon as he emerged from the cut through.

       • The speed limit is 15mph there, not 30.

         Of course even at that pace Zimmerman seems to have managed to observe a very great deal in the dark and the rain during the short time he would have had the area south of Frank’s house in view.

         unitron

         • Yes, I noticed the speed limit too, but I sincerely doubt that anyone pays it much attention, since it’s not like the SPD will be enforcing it on private property. When people are driving familiar streets and roads, they tend to drive a bit faster than posted. Even speed bumps don’t slow them down much.

           On the Veterans Home Campus out here in Queens, for example, they slow to nearly 5 mph at the speed bumps, then accelerate to nearly 30 mph to the next one. But, the ones who drive like that, I noticed, are mostly the workers who drive those roads every day. Visitors are more likely to observe the 15 mph speed limit until they too become familiar with the roadway. Heck, I even see some of these people go right over the speed bumps with just a bare touch of the brake.

           Then too, if Osterman and Shelly stayed behind, while GZ had to go shopping alone, I can easily imagine he’d want to get the shopping over and done with real quick with the rainy weather.

           So, I look at where GZ says he first spotted TM in the reenactment, and it’s somewhere further back than those parked cars. Looking at the lay of the land there, since I don’t see TM walking near the cars, that puts him most likely somewhere near the center of the cut through. For GZ to see him there, in that narrow space, GZ has to have pulled up almost abreast of the cut through. That means a head turn to the left of some 85 to 90 degrees, just to grab about a fraction of a second view of that area. All while speeding ahead on a right bending road, and we do know that turning/bending roads require constant attention even at 15 mph, no less 20, 25, or 30 mph.
           Yet GZ is not only just looking the opposite way from his direction of travel, but he’s describing TM’s movements as they would be covering some 15 to 20 feet or 3 to 4 seconds.

           Why wouldn’t he simply have said that he spotted TM out near the road, preparing to cross it or something like that, where he’d have better visibility without the question of his speed, and these impediments to the view he describes? The obvious answer is, he’s trying to force the issue of TM being suspicious, so putting him back in the cut through helps that image greatly. Unfortunately for GZ he hasn’t given any thought to what he, himself would have to be doing while watching from there.

           So, most likely that part of GZ’s story is a totally fabricated creation. Without knowing which way TM was going to go, he’d have had to have spent quite a few seconds stopped there at the bend watching TM. Then followed him around to the clubhouse, arriving just seconds before TM, meaning he drove slowly along for about the one minute fifteen seconds it took TM to walk.

           Of course, that’s IF he did in fact park at the clubhouse. I think there’s a school of thought that has him patrolling around only to spot TM at the mailboxes for the first time. It certainly would have been nice if those cameras could have eliminated some of this doubt.

           • In the HOA’s Feb. 2012 newsletter they specifically mention both the speed limit and getting the SPD to enforce it.

             How religiously Zimmerman observed it I have no idea.

             As he was coming up the road when he first spotted Martin he no doubt would have slowed down to check him out (possibly first arousing Martin’s suspicions), although the kind of detail he provided would have still required rather extended surveillance, and I’m not sure he had the time for it without coming to a complete stop or taking his eyes off of the road for entirely too long for it not to be very unsafe operation of a motor vehicle.

             unitron

             • Thank you… Which seconds my point, if this portion of the trip had occurred, it would have happened in an envelope of such strange goings on, that neither party would have found them unremarkable. Yet this “dance” is completely ignored by both, only to be “recounted” by GZ in the aftermath.

               Next, GZ arrives at the clubhouse — an 80 second walk for TM — just 5 seconds ahead of TM. The idea that TM was being followed, should have been expressed very early in the phone call while he sheltered from the rain at the mailboxes. I get the impression that TM doesn’t talk of being followed until he’s leaving, or has left, the shelter of the mailboxes? (I’m setting aside GZ’s claims of what happened while he was parked at the clubhouse for the moment. Because GZ wants his story to flow smoothly from having his attention caught on his way to the store, to his passive activity of parking at the clubhouse, giving him time to witness more strange TM behavior without appearing to follow. )

       • @Lonnie –

         “Now GZ is saying in the reenactment, that he’s observing several seconds of TM’s movements in detail. Something he could not do if he was moving!”

         That’s a good point, imo. In the re-enactment, Zimmerman said Trayvon was standing then walking in front of the houses near Taaffe’s. Precisely because that was a bend, Zimmerman would have had to stop to maintain control of the truck or risk hitting some other car. Osterman (I think) said Zimmerman’s suspicion was aroused because Trayvon Martin was fidgety. In other statements Zimmerman said Martin was not moving fast enough for Zimmerman and this caused his suspicion of Martin. Yet, in other statements, Zimmerman claims Martin was walking about looking at houses.

         In your (f) above, I wonder if, after this brief looking at each other interaction near Taaffe’s house, Zimmerman slowly followed by car before moving ahead to TTL. Zimmerman said he passed Martin and moved to the clubhouse to call NEN here. But if that were the case, NEN took an awful long time to connect.

         Suppose Trayvon Martin didn’t walk to the mail shed using the RVC side the whole way, but instead used the sidewalk behind the clubhouse. IIRC, there is a sidewalk accessed if you were to walk east a couple of houses down from Taaffe’s and cross the street and another access point a little further down. The sidewalk goes along the back of the clubhouse area (around the pond) and leads directly to the mail shed.

         If that’s what Martin did, that would leave Zimmerman possibly confused about Martin’s whereabouts and it may have been what prompted Zimmerman to search back and forth up and down the RVC route prior to spotting him again at the mail shed (which corresponds with tchoupli’s light analysis).

         • When GZ said “111 Retreat View” good chance he wasn’t there looking at the clubhouse. If it has 1111 displayed and he was there then that would have been a sloppy directive. We all know how intent GZ is on giving the perfect address taken right off a building!

           There was also a street sign showing the names RVC and TTL at the intersection. He couldn’t see that either. Must not have been there at the time he needed it.

           • At the time he was asked in front of what address he was parked he was already out on foot, most likely somewhere in the vague vicinity of the “T”, and nowhere near a street sign.

             He has accurately mentioned all four of the 1s in the clubhouse address in previous calls to the police, however.

             unitron

             • Now that I think about it… GZ has to say it was he who spotted TM over by FT’s because he has to hide the notification system. So that’s his reason to lie about seeing TM there and it fits nicely with his trip to the store.

               But, when he’s trying to say he’s over by the clubhouse, he stalls, because he thinks he’s building a trail of following: 1. FT 2. Clubhouse and then will come 3. somewhere else. So he becomes reticent.

               After all, once he spotted TM he would never let him out of his sight. Which appears to have happened between FT and the clubhouse. So that portion is probably false, just a cover up to hide the fact that he got a notice from someone.

               I’d be willing to bet that GZ has had more than one brainstorming session on “what if this”, “what if that” on NW patrolling scenarios. If so, they’d conclude it would be alright for him to have his gun, if he wasn’t on patrol. It would be alright for him to pull his gun, if he could claim he was attacked by surprise, while not following or patrolling, and it would be helpful if he were bleeding to push the attack story his way.

               Could it be that he maintains wounds over time? To always be ready?
               I’m sure GZ couldn’t wait for an opportunity to pull his gun on a gang banger.

           • @unitron
             I’m talking about the first words out of GZ’s mouth on the NEN call:
             “Hey we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, it’s Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.”

             To me this indicates he is not parked in front of the clubhouse reading numbers off the wall. That’s all.

           • I don’t know who GZ is trying to fool, but I’ve never heard of RATL before two months ago, and already I know that all addresses in RATL are four digits.

             Developers like four digit addresses because it makes the development seem larger than it actually is and therefore more substantial. GZ doesn’t seem to have learned this in nearly 2 years he’s lived there?

             Only thing I can think of is, he got cold feet about giving an address he wasn’t at, at the time. Possibly because someone was coming, who he thought might later call this into question. Not for any really serious reason other than, he likes to keep his activities secret. so he can claim that he innocently forgot he happened to be carrying his weapon, and/or he was not patrolling. He’ll only admit to patrols in the past, when after they end without incident, then yes he patrolled. But present and future patrols never occur, only dog walks and shopping trips.

         • @CSFC: Yes, that’s a possibility I discuss in my “f” above. But there’s also another possibility I mention in that same paragraph, that TM might even have simply walked up RVC to the back and continued home that way.

           The only way GZ is required to wind up patrolling TTL looking for TM, is that he doesn’t see TM coming through the cut through himself.

           This is because, if he spotted TM himself at the cut through, he would have been watching TM go to the sidewalk that you mention, leading behind the clubhouse. Because GZ says he gets to park at the clubhouse only 5 seconds before TM arrives there.

           Then at the very same time, he wants us to believe that he drove there directly and that TM somehow covered an 80 second walk at about the same speed as his car. But he should have taken only 15 seconds to get there.

           So, instead, what we get is GZ following TM from the cut through, stopping, staring and then driving very slowly along. He’d also probably want to watch TM enter the sidewalk running behind the clubhouse, before going around to park there.

           Okay, but if none of that happens, then GZ comes down either TTL or RVC and doesn’t see anyone, because TM is out of sight, sheltering at the mailboxes. But GZ knows there’s someone there, because he’s been told there was, and because it’s raining heavily, he figures anyone would have to take cover from it, which means they’ll be coming out into view, when the rain tapers off. He’d like to spot them before they start moving, so he patrols the areas where someone is likely to seek shelter from the rain and viola, there’s TM by the mailboxes. Meanwhile TM has noticed this truck out there making u turns and driving back and forth, finally taking up a position right in his path.

           Notice that TM would have see this strange driving behavior as he emerged from the cut through, if it had happened that way, and he’d probably have remarked about it then. But the first mention TM makes of being followed is after he leaves the shelter of the mailboxes. So it’s a mutually confirming thing.

       • @Lonnie –

         Hmm.. I should have read here first before my last comment. I do think Zimmerman may have followed from near Taaffe’s (rather than that portion of his account being a complete fabrication). I think Zimmerman called dispatch as a cover after his initial stalking by car.

         I think after Zimmerman had decided in his mind that he could make an argument that Trayvon Martin was “up to know good” by seeing him (a young black teen who he could easily overpower since he was so skinny), Zimmerman convinced himself it was ok for him to continue his opportunity to “catch a thief” and make himself a hero in his neighbors’ eyes.

         I think Zimmerman had lost Martin temporarily and once he saw Martin again Zimmerman decided he had better cover himself (legally — or so he thought) by calling NEN before continuing on his hunt.

         That’s also why I think M1 vs. M2, but I don’t think it is provable and therefore, we got the State’s M2 charge instead of M1. Everything provable occurred AFTER the NEN call began, but by then, the pre-meditation had already happened and all the witnesses that we know about kick in only AFTER the NEN as well.

         Except for DeeDee’s account and phone records.

         • The prosecutor has a very good case for murder 2, and the jury can still find murder 1 if they feel it’s warranted, so why would the SP bother to waste time with a GJ? M1 isn’t charged, but it isn’t off the table either as I understand it.

           As I said, I don’t think GZ was early enough to catch TM by FT’s, because the story would have been much more complex and the notice to Dee Dee of following probably would have been made before TM left the shelter of the mailboxes. The segment of what happens over by FT’s follows GZ’s pattern of lying about things without paying any attention to either timelines or the fact that he has to be doing things himself, while what he is observing is going on.

           Notice how he lies about the fight taking place at the ‘T’, but can’t account for what TM would have been doing, while he was stumbling and reeling for 40 some feet. His lie has him moving 40.5 feet with TM straddling him. I’m sure MOM fears that little lie may very well buy GZ a gurney ride. After all, how much faith can a juror place in the self serving testimony of a known liar?
           A liar who is bigger, heavier, older than his adversary and capable of defending himself as evidenced by his job titles? I don’t see where those combat jobs allowed or required him to carry a fire arm, nor did he obtain his weapons permit until after he’d left those jobs. Meaning that his employers believed he could handle himself in hand to hand combat with most comers, and, in fact, he was fired for being too aggressive, not too mild mannered.

           No, his motives for fabricating the first part of his story is strong. He wants to conceal that he was notified, because moving on notification equals patrol, something he wants to avoid at all costs, because it deprives him of carrying his gun, as being innocent.

           Going out on notice, means he should leave the gun at home, and/or leave the gun in his truck. He doesn’t want to be tied to either of those NW requirements, so he has to not patrol, and he has to not follow, and he has to forget he has the gun. Which is why he needs to have TM attack him down by the ‘T’, where he is so dazed by a sneak punch in the nose that he can’t recover in time to defend himself, while TM covers his mouth with one hand (to stop him from screaming?) and his nose with the other hand, and reaches down for his gun with yet another hand? All while somehow floating ~40 feet south of the ‘T’. If we weren’t talking about the murder of a young child, it would be a hilarious story. As it is, since we are, it’s a very sickening story.

         • He needs a story of suspicious behaviour. Looking at houses etc. Which he can’t get from someone obviously just sheltering from the rain at the mailboxes.

           He also very strongly needs to be NOT FOLLOWING, as he knows that adds up to stalking and being the aggressor. If he crawls behind TM from TF to the clubhouse, he is following.

           So the story is he’s going shopping, he’s in a hurry, that’s why he decides to just call it in and not wait for the police.

           Suddenly when he starts to make the call he changes his mind, and never explains why. He’s called it in, the guy is running/skipping away, why does the shopping trip suddenly cease to be urgent? (Yeah yeah I know, he’s just obeying the dispatcher’s request to let us know where he goes. Yeah).

           I believe the whole description is made up, invented, right until the “he’s here now” statement. And I think that’s because he never saw him at TF’s, he just made that up as a likely “accidental” sighting spot, coupled with knowing that’s where he came in, from MO having seen him heading to the entry end of that shortcut.

           So actually on the TF – Clubhouse stretch of RVC he did not follow or watch TM on at all, which he is so keen to underscore in all his statements. Yet he is forced to say he did, to cover up the tip-off and the patrolling/searching for him. Out of the frying pan into the fire.

           I do not believe he followed with intent to kill. Only to detain, so one doesn’t get away, for a change. Only the “suspect” didn’t co-operate. I also believe GZ was delusional enough about his “right” to detain that he did expect it to go smoothly. And somehow expected his “authority” to be so obvious that he doesn’t have to ID himself.

           • Where to begin? Okay, I’ve been to the St Albans veterans campus, a rather large area of roads with stop signs and speed bumps. In the car with a cabbie who is familiar with the road, he kept to 25 mph between speed bumps, and probably would have gone to 30 if they were further apart. This, even though the posted speed is 15 mph and as a U.S. reservation, they have their own U.S. Gov’t police patrolling and even a sign warning of radar in use.

             I think I saw speed bumps in one of the video presentations, but I don’t know where they are located. But, I notice that when people go over speed bumps, they tend to go “eyes forward” as they attempt to judge the harshness of the bump for the speed they’re traveling. The cab I was in took the bumps at a rather harsh 10 mph, when 5 or less would have been a lot smoother.

             Now GZ makes the call, supposedly from a parking space in front of the clubhouse, where TM arrives some 5 seconds after GZ parks, and after passing goes to the mailboxes? If so, then “he’s walking around looking…” is in the past, yet it’s being described in the present?

             We now know — after examining the would be features of a 25 mph trip down RVC, that discovers TM some 15 to 20 feet back from the roadway — would be filled with features not mentioned, but complex, confusing and obvious enough for both parties to have found them remarkable. Yet no remark is made, either by GZ after the fact (no surprise), nor by TM who is on the phone (and would find a truck maneuvering oddly in the rain quite puzzling).

             {@Aussie: it’s FT (Frank Taaffe) not TF, but we know what you mean. No biggie! [means no big deal] lol}

             But any further analysis of what the trip down RVC might have looked like from a moving truck, needs to have the locations of the speed bumps factored in. So, if someone finds them, could you mark a map and send it to NLME or someone for posting? TIA.

             But yes, the faked segment of discovery by FT’s place has many utilities that are needed by GZ to conceal his own designs as well as any help he might have had.

             People coming in here at this point, should know that, we are only speculating on GZ having had help/associates, so far we have only
             the barest of indications that might be true, and we’ve discovered things
             that MIGHT be explained by it. But, it is still just a theory going through
             testing, and that will be the case until some evidence emerges to confirm it.
             So, everyone needs to keep their eyes peeled for it, and to do that, you must have some idea of what it might look like and/or how it might fit.

             Okay, back to the chase!

             • Regarding Speed Bumps
               Witness 19 says in track 2, she push for speed limit signs and speed bumps, but HOA said no money.
               Listen forward from 5:45

               http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

             • I thought I saw a google earth video on You Tube that showed a speed sign and speed bumps. I could never get google earth to work for me most times.
               I get browser hangs and slow responses, makes me worry to go there.
               But someone on google earth can get a ground view look at the roads in RATL.

           • @Lonnie –

             Didn’t see the speed bumps, but did see the name of the neighboring community via google street view. It’s Colonial Village at Twin Lakes. Maybe that’s where the speed bumps are? Maybe that’s where Trayvon Martin hid out before heading home.

             Just trying to find the truth between what Zimmerman and DeeDee say happened. We first speculated that Trayvon Martin took shelter for about 10 minutes. Maybe it was at the Colonial Village property.

             • I don’t think he sheltered a the western community, since it seems to me he arrives at the RATL mailboxes, ~9 minutes later than he would have if he had run all the way. So that seems to say continuous fast walking, or slow walking for a while and faster walking under the increasing threat of rain, which would push up his average speed.

               Of course, he could have run to the western mailboxes, sheltered there, then run to the RATL boxes, but that seems very unlikely. Knowing it was raining off and on, he probably just kept up a brisk walking pace.

               As far as the speed bumps, you may be right, it might have been the ones in the western community I was seeing, I did look a an animated timeline map that was suggesting he had sheltered at those mailboxes. So those street view pictures could very well have been of that community. Google street view messes with my computer so I don’t want to tangle with it, at least until I can get my files backed up. I used to do regular back ups until the software I had for doing it failed. Oh well.

               Anyway, since a witness says there are not speed bumps, then GZ arrives at the place where he says he first saw TM, doing about 25 mph and passing the entire cut through in about .5 seconds. He’d be out of sight by time TM walked out from behind those cars we saw in the reenactment. So, to see what he’s described, he would have had to stop and watch TM walk. Then, to know which way TM was going to go, he’d have had to wait for TM to cross the road and begin heading east on that other walkway, before he could drive around to park at the clubhouse. But then, why park there? When you know that TM will have to come out by the mailboxes, why not park on TTL and have a much better view?

               Only thing is, if you do that, park on TTL, TM doesn’t exit right away because he shelters from the rain. Of course, being in his truck GZ may not be thinking of the rain that way, and expects TM to come out and continue on straight away. TM is taking too long and so GZ has to go on the prowl to reacquire visual contact again. And this is when TM first notices that he’s being followed. GZ probably had notice and came down the more convoluted route to TTL, to be ahead of “the goon” and catch him before he could go for the back gate.

               That makes way more sense than him picking TM up at FT’s and trailing him over to the clubhouse. On the empty rain slicked roads, his stopping and slow rolling would have stood out like a sore thumb. I’d expect TM would have made a mention of being followed before he sheltered at the mailboxes, not after, as was the case.

               He probably even put headlights or flashlight on TM while he sheltered at the mailboxes, which is why TM perceived that he was being followed. GZ had only one persons safety on his mind that night… His Own!

209. Judge Lester will not recuse himself from the case. Breaking news.

     • Thank you.

       Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/judge-neighborhood-watch-case-step-16903806

       • What now? What are the possible avenues that the defense will take after this? Wow! Not good to anger the judge. Not to say that the judge will do anything against the accused, but my goodness. Awkward.

         • Naturally the defense would like another judge, because the evidence and testimony they presented to him, was false and therefore prejudicial.

           What they tried to call “derogatory remarks” were, in fact, a mere recitation of the evidence submitted in favor of bond, and a conclusion based on the fact that, that evidence turned out to be false.

           It certainly can’t be grounds for a judge to withdraw, simply because he has heard, and been required to rule on submissions that are false and, therefore require that adverse decisions, with supportive conclusions etc., be entered against them. Nor will the judge be angry with them for attempting to deploy a defense strategy that is obviously required. Both the defense and the prosecution must attempt to do everything within the rules, that might bolster their cases, otherwise either the people or the defendant is served by “inadequate counsel” which in GZ’s case can be grounds for appeal.

           They must all labor under the certain knowledge that everything they do may be reviewed on appeal.

     • He stood his ground! Yup!

     • I’m so glad! Judge-shopping is not allowed as far as I know.

       Judge Lester mentioned that he wasn’t sure which rule for recusal the first recused judge fell under because the first judge that was recused said there was no cause, but bowed out any way. It’s in the footnote to the order.

210. There’s more about Frank Taaffe.
     Several things indicate FT or someone else was involved that night. Sounded like there was a group in the argument and scuffle. One voice was dominant. I haven’t seen GZ acting dominant. Who used the other flashlight? How do you tap a flashlight with a cell phone in one hand? Did any photos or TV videos show anybody in a white t-shirt? Those identified without a white shirt can be eliminated.
     Still believe GZ stayed at the “T”? then maybe FT chased Trayvon north. Notice DeeDee talks about an “old man”. 28 doesn’t seem old to me. How old is FT? If someone approached Trayvon from the south, how do we know that was GZ and not FT? Are we assuming it was the same person? Maybe it wasn’t. If FT got south and GZ stayed north, then Trayvon really would be cornered or trapped. If Trayvon really tried to get away, it would be much more likely to detain him if there were two against one.

     (Osterman needs to be called as a witness in the trial, too.)

     • Oh, I forgot a really big one.
       Frank T. was shown on a news video from halfway down the dogwalk pointing north. He was saying GZ walked back that way going north. How did he know that? Did George tell him that? Or did he know from having been there Feb. 26?
       Had DeeDee’s testimony about Trayvon being by his father’s house come out yet? If not, Frank was really blowing GZ’s cover. If GZ never went south, then FT is blowing his own cover. Why would he say that either of them were so far south? Did he think there would be witnesses down there?

       • Good question. I don’t actually think either Taaffe or Osterman were there, but who told who what and who had opportunity to conversate seems to be something the State was concerned about.

         • I think the question was a good one because, GZ’s story has him never going far from the ‘T’. So, then, why would he in confidence tell anyone that he actually did go further south of the ‘T’? Obviously he wouldn’t say that to anyone, since he’d be only setting himself up to have to refute it.

           That alone, makes it likely to be from some one who was at the scene and saw it, or… Just someone making things up to boost their own importance.

     • 28 is old to a 16 year old. And she was just going on the voice.

       Screaming’ Jay, check up some of the evidence in more detail. Tchoupi’s collection of maps, with the location of every witness and a precis of their statements, is a good place to start.

       Trayvon Martin

       There is no evidence for a second person involved in the actual chase or fight. Nobody ever saw more than two, in some cases they saw only one (likely the one towards them if the 2 were on their sides) and no strange person, in a white shirt or any other, was seen leaving the scene by witnesses who emerged within seconds of the shooting. No white shirts showed up on any news photos.

       At the most, a third person was involved only in tipping off GZ about a suspicious person in the area.

       Taaffe’s description of the scene was what GZ gad told him. Either he’d ‘told him about being southish on the path, before realising he’d better leave out that bit, or Taaffe was making that bit up.

       • I agree. The other possibility is that neighbors told neighbors after zimmerman told w18 he’d shot in self-defense or osterman told neighbors zimmerman was defending them, etc., etc. Taaffe, too, ist a neighbor and could have gotten his story from one of the neighbors in addition to hearing it straight from george zimmerman’s mouth

     • “How do you tap a flashlight with a cell phone in one hand?” Well, you could bang it against various parts of your body. But that clicking noise at 7:12:16 is REALLY loud, indicating it was made by something very close to the mic. Thus, it’s consistent with GZ tapping it with the butt of the palm of the hand in which he’s holding his phone.

211. Does anyone have a good picture of Sondra Osterman?

     • Disregard found one.

       • Her FB cover photo with Mark (if this isn’t the one you found).

         • Yep. I got it. Printed it out so I can compare it to a woman in the 7-11 video. Its close but i just don’t know…..

           • I only saw this part of the 7/11 video once — pink hoodie, correct?

             • No.. the lady with a pink top and black knee high pants. I put the time on the other post. I can’t remember right now, just got in.

     • Hmm… what are you thinking?

       • The bank videos made me think. We watched and watched and we were like hmmm whats there and bingo someone found Osterman. If Osterman was moving around in Sanford, why not his wife. If the Osterman’s where visiting the Zimms, why not bring the wife. If the men were together and the women were together, wouldn’t it be more likely the women would go shopping together, maybe stop off first get gas or gum at the 7-11. The 7-11 video is an hour long. WHY? If it was just to see Trayvon enter and leave the store why not just show that portion, why an entire hour. So I sat and watched and watched. I see this lady that fits SO profile such as her hair is very long. But in her facebook picture its dark brown no highlights. This woman has highlights. Her nose and the small cleft can been seen in this woman. Her bustline is the same. She seems a little slimmer now then the picture in her facebook but the arms are the same. I don’t know when that facebbok piture was taken, but they seem close. I can’t say for sure they are the same without a current picture of her or at least in Feb 2012.

         Maybe someone with better eyes and software can take a look.

         

         @15:15 Youtube clock not 7-11 clock pulls in to parking lot wearing a pink top and black pants to the knee. Long hair.

         • Oh — that’s a different female than the one I saw a few months back!

           The person I remember came into 7/11 shortly after Trayvon ( and then the 3 hooded guys) left the store. It was darker outside and she was heavier set with a brighter pink hoodie (not sweater) on. I’ll try to track this person down again but, as mentioned, I haven’t seen the clip in months.

           • ^^ The person I was originally referencing (with the pink hoodie) can be seen around the 30 minute mark of Loree’s YT video.

             I can’t tell similarities in facial/body features to save my life — does she look like S. Osterman? I’m thinking no but maybe? Regardless, this S. Osterman/7-11 angle seems at least worth a look (and insanely parallel to Emmett Till other than his *supposed* flirtatious behavior).

           • I appreciate your efforts. Please take a look when you have time and give me a heads up, as to what you think of this woman in the 7-11 video.

       • I can’t tell if that’s S.O. – I’m thinking not. But…anyone else thinking that chick has kind of got a big ass? I was distracted by that and her hair, lol.

     • *inner giggles imagining how Groucho Marx would have answered this straight-line set-up*

       • I can take it give me line….. : ^ )

       • Yes, we do miss Groucho! Those who don’t know him should pull up some of his videos and he had a tee vee show for a time, that should still be available.

212. Also the high forehead. She enters and leaves before TM arrives.

     • And? so the women are out shopping at 6.15 and Osterman only turns up at 6.40, in a separate car from his wife?

       That woman leaves at 6.17 and a bit, and Trayvon doesn’t come in for another 5 1/2 minutes. If they saw him at all, it would be walking along Rinehart Rd and he could have been coming from anywhere.

       So where’s the connection?

       Check against this photo
       

       • This woman is buying cigarettes – she had to show ID. Not buying for herself, as she looked at the display first, then had to take a close read of the first packet shown her, then chose another. She paid by credit/debit card so they’d know who it was, if she’s of any interest.

213. I am very curious who Witnesses 4, 7, and 10 are. I think those are the numbers. These are listed as witnesses, but no statements have been released from them. Any guesses? Comments?

214. @WSI

     WSI: “Can anyone identify clearly what she’s saying between “Even though….” and “Trayvon said ‘what?!”

     It’s just the word ‘then’. There’s clearly only one syllable, and though its a bit muddled, if you look at the context of how she uses ‘then’ in the rest of the sentence, it pretty much has to be ‘then’.

     WSI “The transcript says “He went to walk away” but I don’t hear that.

     Because nothing like that is there. No need to soft soap it and suggest you might be wrong. You’re not.

     WSI: “Also, a red flag would be how would she know Trayvon was walking away at that moment. So it’s most likely a mis-translation by the reporter/media, or they had discussed prior to that would could have been happening at that time.”

     Excellent! You point out that there is NO likely way anyone could interpret that one syllable as a six syllable phrase. So how in the name of Gore Vidal did they come up with THAT phrase? So it’s highly likely that this came out of something else other than what DeeDee actually said here. Where that could be we can only guess. But it’s damn curious.

     WSI: “So she’s either repeating this to someone who has heard the story before and is assuming they can fill in the gap, or she normally speaks with words/phrases buried like contractions.”

     Well, we have enough examples of her speech that we know that as inarticulate as she may be, she’s not THAT inarticulate when describing this part of the encounter. In fact, when Crump offers back a slight paraphrase of “What you doing around here”, she corrects him back to the exact words she had used. And I think he she sounds tired here, like she’s telling the story again to someone who has already heard it, so she’s kind of abbreviating assuming the listener has already heard and understood. How else to explain that she fails to identify the speaker of “‘What you doin’ around here?’” except that she’s gone into a kind of summary / short-hand mode?

     WSI: “This is the first I’m hearing of the words “What!” (once or twice) before the fight, and I’m unsure of the context or what it means.”

     First I’ve heard of it too, but it sounds in this re-telling as some sort of reaction to GZ’s aggressive “What you doin’ around here?” But we could easily imagine it as a reaction to something more physical on GZ’s part – perhaps the grab-ass stuff started before the pushing that sent Trayvon to the grass. Interesting in that it seems to fit Jennifer’s description of hearing a ‘Huh, huh’ type of sound as the voices travelled past her open door, and before the actual shouting and screaming began.

215. @aussie

     aussie: “if Gutman was present at an interview… isn’t it possible, or even likely, that he was making his own recording of it, even though he did not ask any questions?”

     That was my major point (1a, and 2a in the post). Was I that unclear?

     The thing is Gutman and Crump have denied the existence of other recordings, or the occurance of other interviews (alas I don’t have the cites, but there is clearly an absence of other recordings or interviews being acknowledged).

     • Maybe we just can’t find it now that multiiple sites have picked up on the importance of DeeDee’s testimony.

216. I’m disabling comments for this blog posting until I get a response to this WordPress forum posting…

     http://en.forums.wordpress.com/topic/comments-ordered-incorrectly

     In the interim, the comment section of this posting isn’t broken…yet.

     George Zimmerman Evidence Dump #2 – A Deeper Dive

     • This WordPress comment issue should be fixed…well, for (I assume) the very short time being. 🙂

217. old news, but somewhat interesting: Judge’s Order denying Motion for recusal: http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/08/01/Order_Dismissing_Defendants_Motion_to_Disqualify_Trial_Judge.pdf

     also, if GZ scraped his head superficially on the in grass sprinkler heads–did enough time lapse to form scabs between scuffle and cleanup?

     I re-listened to state interview-W8-& at the end of Dee Dee’s interview by BDlR,she states that Trayvon was a mama’s boy and that he wouldn’t fight- (she alludes to that being his character), so the theories of GZ grabbing him, pulling him down, etc. seem more plausible than TM being the aggressor- just my opinion

     • We’ve got an armed 28 year old with a documented history of aggression (CFU party bouncer, confrontation with ATF agent, ex-fiancée, mood swings listed in medical records, etc.) chasing down a wiry unarmed teenager that reportedly didn’t like to fight and was heard screaming for help. Hmmmm.

       • NLME:

         You forgot the 28 year old was dedicated to Justice, having taken a couple courses at a juco, and the ‘unarmed teenager’ reeked of illegal drugs he’d smoked several weeks earlier, had something in his waistband, was wearing gang-banger apparel (a HOODIE for heaven sakes!), and there was one other suspicious thing about him I can’t seem to remember… oh yeah he was …
         So Hmmm back at ya!

         love
         Sean Hannity

         • Hahaha!

     • @bgesq –

       I keep forgetting about the sprinkler heads. Wonder if they are on a timer. It would be interesting to know.

218. Common Sense For Change:
     “Zimmerman either had the gun out and at his ready before the confrontation, or he took it out approximately 40 seconds before the shot was fired. Trayvon Martin screamed for help for about 40 seconds, right?”

     Yes! It would make the scene more desperate to introduce the gun. This could mark the change point between the cries and “Helps”.

     I have reason to believe the non-verbal cries started around 7:15:30. W11 says the cries began as she was dialing 911. She dialed earliest because the argument was right by her house, sounded like a group, and there had been crime recently. It was the cries that brought JohnW6 out. He tells the wrestlers he is going to call 911 at around 7:15:56. This is per w19 who re-enacts herself pulling her dog back in and going upstairs. It took her 60 seconds from hearing w6 until the shot. The gun went off at 7:16:56.

     As I understand it, the neighbors who had been out all went back inside after hearing w6 say he was calling 911. This was a change signaling isolation to both Trayvon and GZ. The final 40 seconds is when the cries change into screams for “Help”. Even the 911 dispatchers can hear it. Each change like this must have been caused by some important change of physical circumstance. This change was the gun coming out, IMO.

     • @Screamin’ Jay

       Your last sentence – I think it’s the gun coming out, too, or that this is the moment the gun is pointed at him. To me, it really sounds like someone is desperate, and possibly even crying as the words help are yelled.

       You mentioned W11 being able to get to her phone earliest. In one of her statements, she mentions that she called her neighbor John(W6). When does this call take place? Does anyone know? To me, it sounded like he was called during the altercation, which is weird considering she’s on the phone to 911. So, when does she call? Before calling 911? After? I would like to know the answer to this if anyone has the answer.

     • Ahh.. So it was W19 that did the timed reenactment. I had been thinking it was W3 for some reason. Will have to go revisit W19’s statement.

       “This was a change signaling isolation to both Trayvon and GZ. The final 40 seconds is when the cries change into screams for “Help”. Even the 911 dispatchers can hear it. Each change like this must have been caused by some important change of physical circumstance.”

       Indeed!

219. George of the Jumble.
     GZ really jumbled up his testimonies. I want to revise what I have said about this. Gosh, we could have a Letterman-style top ten reasons. I mentioned immaturity and arrested development. We have also discussed meds, pathological lying, and George’s “bad memory”.
     I’d like to add that the revelation of the Osterman resource at the scene potentially adds to GZ’s jumble. Why is this? Well, think back to a time when you had to make a presentation in school or work. If you are like me, it was hard to keep the speech on track. GZ had patrolled many times and had called NEN before. So, he may have been on auto-pilot. Anyway, he had his experience that night. Due to what happened, he starts pacing and jury-rigging the scene. He concocts his own story to tell. Then others start coaching him. It’s important to think back to the scene, the phone calls, and the police station. He probably starts picking up neighbor’s reactions. He is asked prying questions by the police which make have cast doubt on his actions.
     As time goes on he has more and more input from wife, family, Osterman, Singleton, Serino, and others. If this had not be planned ahead, it’s getting real complicated now. Not only is he trying to remember, he’s comparing his story to that of his coaches. He may not have understood or fully agreed with every detail of that coaching. Consensus many times requires long conversations (like we are doing here on BCClist). And he was only getting snatches of interaction at first.
     Keeping this in mind helps as I listen to GZ pausing, omitting things, and giving dumb answers even on the NEN call.

     • Spot on, Jay.

       Everyone is quick to point out how the witnesses changed their stories, under the influence of other neighbours and what they saw in the media.

       You are quite right. GZ must have been subject to the same influences, even more so because of the feedback from police as well. On top of that, unlike the witnesses, he has to always end up with a story that makes him innocent.

       Going on the one recorded old call where Shellie in the background tells him to NOT go outside, I’d say she wasn’t keen on his activities. Maybe she didn’t mind him going for a drive to look around when nothing was happening, but didn’t want him going out into potential danger when there was a suspect right there.

       This would be putting extra pressure on him to “do it right” to prove to her he can do it. I’d guess if she had been with him in the car that night we’d hear her saying something in the background to stop him getting out.

     • The Osterman Resource

       I knew there was a Ludlum novel in this case somewhere.

       : – )

       unitron

       • To be sure!!!

220. The Miama Herald story is up:

     http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/04/2933157/the-trayvon-martin-truth-squad.html#storylink=twtuser

     I’m moved to tears that so many of you care enough about Trayvon to spend countless hours going over this case. I do not know his family but it just moves me that you all believe his life mattered and ended too soon.

     • Thank you Princess6! Just so you know : “The administrators of that site, Heit & Cheri, are unusual in that they have paid for access to the Duval County server reserved for the media.” I also paid for SAO access, so I could examine the evidence without edits, overlays, etc.. Happy to provide files/links, etc. as needed

       Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/04/2933157_p4/the-trayvon-martin-truth-squad.html#storylink=cpy

       • It was a great article. She called me but alas I wasn’t available at the time. Just as well, I wouldn’t have added much to the great work and effort that has been expended by those she did interview. Meanwhile she’s got to tread a line between the pros and cons. Her article isn’t there to test the evidence, after all.

         As far as open records laws being potentially harmful, not hardly! There’s a reason we have open courts and public access. Remember, even here it took public outcry to get the legal people “off the dime” with this case. It takes open courts to ensure that justice gets done, most especially in high profile cases, where political careers will hang in the balance, and “solutions” other than the truth will serve them better. We come here through thousands of years of history, to a point in time where the truth can actually mean something. Unlike the courts of Pharaohs, Emperors and Kings, where the truth was whatever pleased them at the moment. So, secrecy at law, only serves to take us back to those “bad old days”.

         We only have our American freedoms because, we’re willing to risk government being handicapped by rules that prevent it from dictating. to us, to serve them. Once government gets the right to do whatever it wants, in the name of security, we lose all of our rights and freedoms. That was the message of The Founding Fathers, and it’s one we must never forget.

         • I meant to contact her, but didn’t. I wish you would have given your NW input, though. Public sentiment seems to be so ignorant about the NW function, imo.

           Maybe she’ll do another story on NW now that Fox’s NW movie flopped? FYI, my HOA and NW hate teenagers. I learned this when I first moved to my current community. I started making th em aware of the positives of teens — cutting grass for seniors, etc,, helping (as volunteers) to keep the community clean and safe, etc., making them feel confident enough to chat up their peers (other teenagers) to help them feel like stakeholders of their own community.

           It really disturbs me that people hate teens instead of reaching out to them to impression them positively. I was once a teen. I don’t understand why seemingly decent people can’t remember they were, too.

           • On NW, yes, I guess I could have given her quite an earful. Everywhere you go on the net, there are people saying that “We don’t need you to do that”, is not an order, as if that’s an answer to the totality of it’s meaning. It is not.

             To put it simply, anyone who reads the mission statements and constituting papers of NW by the National Sheriff’s Association, realizes that the statement is a reminder AND an open and clear refusal of GZ’s offer to help.
             “Are you following?”, “We don’t need you to do that!”

             So, where does GZ’s claim stand, that the SPD asked for his help? In fact they refused his assistance, for the many reasons specifically enumerated by the National Sheriff’s Association, they don’t want NW to turn into, or be used by, vigilante’s. Of course, GZ already knew what his position would be, from the 14 hour course he had taken on NW and most likely supplemented by talks with the Osterman resource (could you think of a subject more interesting to them both?), Frank Taaffe’ and of course, GZ’s own father.

             The results of all this talking is, NW patrols are never planned or scheduled for the future. Every patrol is only described as a patrol, after it has taken place in the past. GZ , FT and anyone else who has been with them, will always talk of past patrols, but cannot tell you the best time for patrolling, the best days or anything else, that would enable you to discover when the next patrol might occur. Because GZ knows that he can’t carry his gun on patrol, but he can if he’s only walking his dog.

             And the kicker is, NW’er’s are not supposed to be patrolling at all. They have no patrol duties, that is another program, quite apart from NW. You’d certainly think that this would be a good reason, for a legal eagle like GZ to use, to explain why he never goes on patrols, right? But no, GZ and FT are happy to explain just how useful their patrols have been in the past.

             I might as well mention that I see the Osterman Resources fingerprints all over that muttered statement “F-ng Goons”, it was to be a masterful stroke.
             Had GZ enunciated it clearly and loudly enough so that it could not have been mistaken for a racist remark, the behavior of the goons themselves, would have filled the screens and pretty nearly blotted out everything else. That kind of skillful dodging is above GZ’s pay grade, it’s not something that FT’s crude mind would be able to manage or come up with. Only the Osterman Resource has these kinds of skills.

             The clear intent of the mention, was to move the discussion over to underscore a view of the Goons on video. Then it would be easy to imagine
             that TM might easily be mistaken for one of them, and it’s a given they’re very dangerous people. Had the focus turned to the goons history etc., in the early days of the investigation and when the public was starting to come aboard, the flood of wild and repulsive behavior in those videos would probably have turned most people away. After all, how do you prove that TM wasn’t a member of the gang? The hurdles would have appeared insurmountably high and so critical mass might never have been reached and GZ could very well have gone free without judicial review of his conduct.

             One hot phrase stood between GZ and the goal posts and he dropped the ball, again thank heavens.

           • @Lonnie –

             The HOA insurer has filed suit against Trayvon Martin’s mom and the HOA to clarify if it is responsible for Ms. Fulton’s claim.

             It’s about to heat up on legal matters! The HOA is comprised of idiots with big mouths and good connections. The HOA president (I think she’s the president of the HOA) sells “gold coins” or some chit. The HOA secretary seems to think its cool for Zimmerman to be confrontational when it comes to his NW duties.

             Boils down to whether or not the idiots managing the HOA “hired” Zimmerman as a defacto unpaid/volunteer security guardian of the property.

             Again, Zimmerman is NOT a homeowner. Did the secretary count his vote?

             • It’s going to be a really big help for those on TM’s side, that the HOA is cool with GZ being confrontational. Wait until they get into court with their suit and learn that GZ has no right to know or investigate whether or not anyone on the property is carrying a fire arm or anything else, legal or illegal. Even a LEO needs probable cause to stop and search someone, GZ is not a LEO and has no powers of any kind at all conferred on him by NW, other than those any citizen would have, the right to call the police and report suspicious activities. So, if they’re cool with vigilantism, that’s not going to help them in court.

         • I would like for someone to do an article on the mindset of diehard GZ followers from the GZLC page and from the secret safehouse page they created. Now that would be quite embarrassing. All one would need to do is just observe the threads on that site for a while. The Safehouse secret group is quite pathetic. Someone I know believes that GZ acted in self-defense and was invited into that group. She is actually African American, but the group does not know that. She told me that she still thinks GZ acted in self defense, but that she wants nothing to do with those people. She sent me screen shots of the racist nonsense that goes on in there. At one point, many of the followers changed their profile pictures to monkeys, some of the monkeys were eating watermelon. One poster said, “Oh, look at Traythug teething!” One of the monkeys was nick named skittles beause it was the color of the rainbow. Many of them also go to sites that support TM and just antagonize people for the fun of it. Then they go back to the GZLC and their secret group and boast about the trouble they cause. That’s the mindset of what’s happening over there. And my friend said that she does not want to be associated with those people. I’m telling you, if a reporter got ahold of that information, that kind of article would really make the GZ team look pretty bad.

           • Send the screen caps and your thoughts to Frances Robles @ Miami Herald with the idea.

             I bet these people would be the ones to say they aren’t racist. I know a lot of people who make the comment that there are “black people” and then there are “n******.” They don’t think that comment is racist. I’ve also read comments from GZ supporters stating that white people need to civilize black people. What a great bunch of people to have supporting you.

             I actually find it a bit humorous that these kind of people call people like us here Trayvonistas, TrayHuggers, Trayconites, etc. while eating up GZ’s lies then chasing those lies with kool-aid. If some legit evidence showed up that proves GZ acted in self-defense, I’d accept it as the truth. Haven’t seen that, yet. I think I’ll be waiting for a long, long time.

           • What they’re engaged in is not all that complex, in fact it is quite simple and easy to describe in just a single word: “Juvenile!”

             Hard to see anyone getting a very long article out of that!

     • From the article:
       “The bloggers say their intense interest in the case underscores a deep-seated distrust in both law enforcement and the mainstream media, who they blame for shoddy coverage and poor analysis of the facts.”

       Congratulations, all. I just want to find out what really happened in this case. I’ve been studying independently since it hit the national media in March. This case has crime, police, justice, mass media, almost everything except the kitchen sink.

       I don’t live in Florida but I was recently passing through the Sanford area. I think the local media coverage is way better there. The local stations’ output is a great resource. Many of the people in Orlando are troubled and bothered by GZ. You might say Miami coverage is local, too, as the Trayvon Martin family is from there.

     • Thanks PRINCSS6.

       From the article:

       ” “Most of it is crazy, but there are a couple of nuggets in there,” O’Mara said in a May interview. Of one blog, he said: “It’s absurd, and it’s never going away. The blog must have people who are up all night long endlessly analyzing evidence. They are doing my job for me.” ”

       ??????Wonder which blog he’s talking about???? HMMM???

       ” A WOMAN, HER COMPUTER AND 9 CATS”

       ****** I resent this characterization…..I don’t have that many cats….

       ” The lawyers in the case agree that the bloggers are doing the work that would otherwise cost thousands of dollars to produce. The maps the bloggers have made normally cost about $3,000 to have made, Jackson said. ”

       ****** There’s nothing stopping them from sending the map makers here a check!

       • Maybe they totalled the cats? I admit to one permanent and 2 long-term fosters. Still leaves 6 for the rest of you.

       • LOL! I thought the article was pretty good, too.

         It would have been a little more “fair and balanced” if she’d have mentioned (w/o linking) that the Zimmerman family has a whole slew of websites set up to beg for money when she mentioned this:

         “Other pro-Zimmerman bloggers have set their sights on Trayvon’s parents in an effort to portray them as irresponsible parents profiting from their son’s death.”

         • Very good point.

     • Thank you for linking to the article, princss6.

       TM’s life does matter. I don’t care who TM was before the night of 2/26 or who he might have become after the night of 2/26. Did he do what GZ says happened on 2/26? I don’t see the evidence of that. From what we know of each person’s past, GZ looks like the more likely candidate for aggression, not TM. I want to know what provoked this kid to all of a sudden snap. GZ can’t seem to answer this question. I can’t seem to find a logical explanation.

       As always, rest in peace, kid.

       • The clear picture that’s emerging is that GZ was probably tipped off that this kid was in the area. GZ decided to go hunt him down and hold him for the police. He went out and hunted him down, but his actions also scared the kid out of his wits. Because he refused to identify himself, TM thought the worst of the matter and tried desperately to escape. GZ, on the other hand, became increasingly angry at TM’s refusal to capitulate (to what one can only guess). At one point GZ’s anger gets the best of him and he draws his gun to pacify TM, but it has the opposite effect and TM begins screaming in panic.

         This puts GZ on the spot. With the prospect of all this noise drawing witnesses, he explores the option of letting him go! He realizes that having drawn his weapon, if he let’s TM go, it is now he who is in serious trouble.
         I’d guess he momentarily explores the trouble he would be in, if this all comes to light, and he decides then and there “You’re going to die tonight”, because GZ realizes that’s the only way he can effectively claim self defense, SYG or anything else. Because once TM get’s to tell anyone about GZ’s drawn weapon, GZ’s dreams of any kind of LEO career are gone and he probably does time in jail. His knowledge of law tells him this, but having not killed before, GZ still needs a few seconds to work up his nerve. During that time TM experiences unquenchable panic and escalates his efforts to withdraw. GZ shoots him. Then begins contriving lies to cover his tracks. His hands go up to his head to peel off the scabs he’s been wearing all along and he gets a few of them off. Enough to start a good blood flow, but, since he’s already finished handling TM, he gets none of this blood on him. Witnesses are already out there, he can’t plant blood now and the police arrive quickly so he has to go with what he has.

         Later he learns that there’s big money coming into his website and since he knows his story is weak and too convoluted to be believed, he plans to go to the bail hearing, make bail and leave the country. To that end he conceals his second passport, and tries to draw down the money, paying off debts so as to have fewer people hunting for him. After all, he can still sell the house later through a proxy, but not if it’s foreclosed. The judge upsets his plans by requiring the ankle bracelet and the whole plan falls apart.

         • That is precisely how it came about, Lonnie.

           So he did not shoot because his actual physical life was in danger. Only his life as he knew it was.

           He killed to save himself from ridicule and stop his dream vision of himself falling apart.

           “I’ll die of shame if people laugh at me” is NOT literally fearing you are abut to literally die.

           Depraved mind. Murder 2.

       • Thanks Princss6 for posting link. I want to give you all two thumbs up and Blog owner for all the information and very much welcomed honest and clear discussion of this case. When I first heard of this story back in February, all I could think about this could of been my son. He was tall and lanky at that age, mild mannered. My son wouldn’t fight unless he was severely provoked. When they said a man shot an unarmed kid, I said to myself that is it ! I am so sick and tired of unwarranted killings that I wanted to help with the Martin/Fulton family. Signed the petition, marched, sent donation. Then I started reviewing all the evidence, and wanted to know what the hell happened that night. Personally from day one I knew in my heart GZ killed that young man and did not have to. I know what you feel in your heart is not what can be taken into court. In the immortal words of Denzel Washington from Training Day, “It’s not what you know, its what you can prove. I hope to God that the state can prove their case beyond any resonable doubt. But here in my house he is guilty.

         • Don’t worry, GZ has already convicted himself, even without anyone’s testimony against him. If his was the only testimony submitted and explained, he’d be toast. GZ’s options will be to testify and refute himself and make threadbare excuses for his conduct that night, which will reap him a M! conviction. Or, he can refuse to testify, in which case the evidence will reap him an M1 conviction.

           There are two major obstructions to any path to innocence for GZ and those will undo him at any trial, no matter what evidence he offers. Don’t ask me what they are, I wouldn’t want them to know what they are and prepare for them, even though there is only one chance in a gazillion that they could.
           I want to watch and see if they ever even come close to an answer.
           GZ’s position is so bad that even a Klan jury would have serious trouble with him. Or, did anyone notice that he’s not beating his chest about his proud heritage?

     • I’ve got to disagree with Jeralyn Merritt SO HARD on her comment about following someone not being an act of aggression…

       WHAT?! If you want to take GZ’s word as truth, he says himself that he followed the kid at multiple points. He gets out of the car, which you can clearly hear he’s moving fast (jogging or running), and follows after TM with a gun strapped to his hip. HM, that’s not aggressive? Another person wouldn’t see that as aggression? Okay. Tell that to a woman walking to her car at night.

       • Others have said the same. But they are purposely confusing the issue. True on a main street at lunch time there are hundreds of people walking the same way… but that IS what they are doing. Not following you.

         Big difference to 2 people, at night, and one takes a zig-zag route and the other is always just behind. That is fear-inducing in any reasonable person, and that is why it constitutes aggression.

         Had he explained who he is, to explain his action, that would have allayed the fear. The aggression is in the causing of the fear, not in the actual walking the same route. Jeralyn is being purposely obtuse in failing to draw this distinction.

         • Inducing fear in FL is assault. For a lawyer, she should know this. She chooses to ignore it.

           • She’s a defence lawyer.

             • Explains that! LOL!

       • At that point in time, if TM had called the police and they came, they’d have no choice but to arrest GZ! NW is not a cover for stalking/following and scaring people who have done nothing wrong, committed no crime. GZ has absolutely no right to follow anyone, be they stranger or anything else. He simply has no authority, none of his questions have to be answered, none of his commands have to be obeyed.

         All GZ has a right to do is call the police and wait for them to come! Anything else on his part is either an infraction of NW rules, or a crime, depending only on how much he does in what manner.

       • Like most words “following” has more than one meaning. In one of those meanings – “traveling on the same route behind” – following is NOT agression. In another meaning, “What you following me for?” – it is aggressive.

         As trial, the burden of proof would be on the prosecution to establish that GZ was doing an aggressive following, not a more innocent following. And I say again that despite the wishful thinking of many TM partisans, GZ’s NEN call does not prove aggression. There is no proof he has any idea where TM is during the entire last half of the call, nor is there proof in the call that he is still looking around for the ‘asshole’ (though he probably was IMHO, but a good guess does not = proof). In fact, it now seems that when GZ replied in the affirmative to “Are you following him?” Trayvon was already out of sight and GZ was just on the path he had last seen the young man take.

         I think Lonnie’s overview is pretty good macro level hypothesis. The only part I’m not so sure about is GZ deciding to shoot out of calculation. Maybe I’m too soft, but I just can’t see him as that cold-blooded. It still seems more likely to me that there’s an escalating panic on the part of both men – neither of who have any experience being in a struggle of this sort – and after 40 seconds of staring at GZs gun Trayvon grabs for it or does something else defensive GZ takes as threatening, and his nervous finger follows through on reflex, doing what the gun is designed to do. That’s murder 2. Lonnie’s scenario is Murder 1, since the necessary pre-meditation for that can be formed in seconds.

         The NEN call is hard evidence. GZ’s verdict (if there is a trial) will be decided on what happened AFTER he hung up that call. Did he find TM and begin/resume an aggressive pursuit, as most of us believe, or did TM initiate the aggression as GZ claims. The evidence for the later is mainly GZ’s own account, and the fact that GZ had wounds (however minor) while TM did not. GZ has uttered so many verifiable, unquestionable falsehoods that he should have zero credibility, and the wounds are inconclusive of aggression on TM’s part. For the former, evidence is also circumstantial and sketchy at this point: GZ’s falsehoods don’t prove any specific alternative scenario, the witness report of a chase up the T is sketchy at best, and DeeDee’s account of GZ’s aggression come only from what she heard, and as such is subject at least to the possibility she formed incorrect impressions in interpreting the sounds, words etc that came over the phone.

         So, in a lot of ways, we’re still where we were months ago: the main issue at trial would seem to be how the court rules on the Florida statutes regarding self-defense, and exactly how an affirmative defense alters the burden of proof. I’ve asked this question before, and not gotten a clear answer. So what I gather is that the trial judge has a certain discretion in the matter. What I mean is, if a defendant claims self-defense in Florida to what extent, if any, must the defense prove the act was justifiable, or does the burden remain entirely on the State to prove that it was not.

         Lawyers! We need lawyers! 😉

         • My understanding is that Self Defense is an affirmative defense which means the burden of proof moves to GZ.

           • re: self defense burden of proof: Princess6- you are correct- usually with affirmative defense, the burden of proof falls on the proponent, BUT it’s a bit strange in florida: it appears that the defendant merely has to assert elf defense, then the prosecution has to prove it wasn’t- that’s because the jury intruction in florida is: “If in your consideration of the issue of self-defense you have a reasonable doubt on
             the question of whether the defendant was justified in the use of deadly force, you should find the defendant not guilty. However, if from the evidence you are convinced that the defendant was not justified in the use of deadly force, you should find [him] [her] guilty if all the elements of the charge have been proved.” The controlling case appears to be: Montijo v. State, 61 So.3d 424 (Fla. 5th Dist, 2011).. So it appears prosecution stil has to prove not self defense. Interstingly, there is a proposed change to the jury instruction: see section 3.6(f)http://www.floridabar.org/DIVCOM/JN/JNNews01.nsf/Articles/6CE1FDFFE1D08982852579C30053EF2A

           • woops! I meant self defense, not “elf defense!” Also, I should add- I am NOT an expert in Fl law- i’m just reading the case law.

             BTW- does anyone know why the media isn’t attributing the robert and gladys donation website to GZ- or at least raising the possibility/liklihood that it’s just another GZ site?

             • @BGESQ, actually “elf defense” works too. O’Mara showed the video of TM at the 2nd bond hearing as a prelude to his argument at the trial that TM was this towering giant (like, see? See how much taller he is than that clerk?).

         • Frederick Leatherman’s law blog explains it in detail:

           Zimmerman: Jury Instructions for Second Degree Murder and Self-defense

         • Yes, I’ll have to agree that being on the same path as the one TM took, cannot be described as following. But that is not the problem!

           The problem is, that after having created the impression in the suspect, that he is being followed, then, even being on the same path as the one the suspect was, is aggression in the view of the suspect, since it becomes perceived as a continuation of the same fearful conduct. GZ already knew that he had frightened the subject, yet, he then goes the same way the suspect has gone, and does so without any good reason for doing so!

           He knows from his neighborhood watch studied and instructions, that the police are not interested in having him follow the suspect, but quite the opposite are against him taking any such action, and the 911 call only serves to confirm it “we don’t need you to do that!” Which he acknowledges, that he will not. Unfortunately he (GZ) already has done more than enough to create an impression in the suspects mind, that his (GZ’s) reappearance is part of the same original project. Thus, it matters not what GZ may or may not have intended, since without any good reason, his actions are frightening to the suspect. GZ had the chance to remove himself completely from view earlier and refused to take it, even knowing that is what he should have done.
           Thus, nothing he does beyond that point can be assigned the label “innocent behavior.

           The only innocent behavior for GZ would have been, to continue north on RVC, and back around to the front gate, so as to avoid being seen by the suspect again. Because, once the suspect is aware he is being followed, every sighting of the follower cannot be interpreted as innocent, but must be seen as part of the ongoing project.

       • Actually GZ foolishly says he was not following, but merely going in the same direction that TM had gone earlier. What GZ doesn’t seem to realize is that the jury will have to convince itself, that going in the same directions was not following.

         To that end, the jury will have to consider the reason for this trip, that goes in the same direction as the suspect. Because it’s not like GZ was headed for, say the post office, which just happened to be along the same route TM was taking home. GZ was moving that way, because he was on a trip that he really did not need to make. Meaning he chose to make this unnecessary trip.

         Although he want us to believe that he was trying to obtain an address, the SPD had already refused his assistance “We don’t need you to do that”, and the only need for any address was, to tell the police where they could meet him. That is something he could have accomplished without going in the same direction as the suspect.

         So GZ is asking the jury to believe that him going in the same direction as the person he’s been following up to now, was not following at this time, because he was looking for an unnecessary address. Then he tells the police that he doesn’t want to wait anywhere for them, but that they should come looking for him. Which means he wants to keep moving around, instead of just going to one spot to wait for the police, as he knows he should be doing.

         • Ah, “A distinction without a difference” will be what the jury concludes.

221. Witness 1.
     I’m transcribing the witness interviews. Tedious but I learn a lot by slowing down and listening over and over to get every word right. It’s going to be a long case. So, I’m sure these transcripts will come in handy.

     The witnesses are in alphabetical order by last name. Witness 1 says she was also interviewed by Matt Gutman for ABC World News. She told him she didn’t think GZ would have done this. He was fine with her the couple of times she talked to him.

     Am I wasting my time? Do these transcripts exist already? What should I do with them? I have the first one done. It’s Serino interviewing W1 on March 1. Should I post it here?

     • Good call on the alphabetical order. Hadn’t noticed that before. Assuming that holds without exception for W1-W22, that would mean:
       W3’s surname begins with B (From Ba-Br)
       W10 is not Chad Green.
       and, perhaps most interestingly, it would mean that ‘DeeDee’ is not who the Treehouse thinks she is.
       Hmmm.

       • Very interesting. I wonder if they got the cousin of GZ wrong, too, since her initials are supposed to be CM or CMJ. That wouldn’t fall in line with alphabetical order, either.

         • Well, it might…off to go digging cuz I need to look at her, DeeDee, and try to figure out *AGAIN* who the f*** W10 is supposed to be!

         • The ‘M’ is her maiden name. The ‘J’ is her married name. (It’s ‘Johnson’ which hardly outs her as it’s the second most common surname in the US).
           That does fit alphabetical order. (W11 is an ‘La’ W7 is Brandi Green.) Thus, DeeDeeW8, identified as an ‘M’ by the tree squirrels, would have to be between ‘Green’ and ‘Johnson’ and W10 would have to be between ‘Johnson’ and ‘La’ (inclusive).

           • Thanks for the breakdown, whonoze! Figured that out already…a little slow, but I did figure it out, LOL.

             Well, here’s the thing about their DeeDee…the person they named as DeeDee was just some chick they pulled off of the NLN Twitter attributed to TM. That’s not really brilliant by any means. These people first pull this lighter skinned black chick off Twitter because she knew TM and had a D name. Where’s the genius in that? Then later, the YT vid of her audio statement uses a darker skinned female, which appears to be the same girl that appears in one of the photos released of TM.

       • If the cousin is indeed still married and going by that last name then TCTH indeed outed the right woman. They get her right, but DeeDee likely wrong… Wonder who their inside info is coming from!

         Who is W10? Are we going to find out there really was someone who witnessed it all, or is this going to be another person who can provide us very little information? I need answers, dammit! Answers, a beer, and a nap. 🙂

       • Do we really know Chad’s last name is Green, though? TM’s last name is not the same as his mother’s and neither is Austin’s (Cheryl Brown’s son).

     • Jay you are not wasting your time. You are performing a wonderful public service. Thank you.

       Put it on this file-sharing site.
       http://kiwi6.com/#local-upload
       Make up some sensible naming style for the files. Something like Witness-number,date and interviewer would be great. That would let anyone easily make comparisons between the various statements by the same witness.

       Don’t forget to come here and announce when you find something interesting or strange in any of them, as you are sure to every now and then.

       Have you tried slowing down the tapes just a little?

       • Okay, aussie. Look here:
         http://kiwi6.com/file/z46t4q281y

         This is the Serino interview of W1 on March 1. The file name is
         Witness1Serino1Mar2012
         I like to study a text version. We can search and copy from them. You still need to listen to the audio for inflections. I like to listen while I read the transcript.

         Yes, many important details are right under our nose in the interviews. They are testimony. Funny that witness 1 didn’t think what she said was important but just wanted to tell what she knew/saw. I’ll probably say more about what I learn from the transcript.

         I’m now typing in her next interview done in person at her home with John Batchelor. He has her draw what she saw. Where can I find that?

       • The other witness 1 interview in transcript form
         http://kiwi6.com/file/1nn4y96q42

         This is the March 20, 2012 interview done in person at W1’s home. John Batchelor and Jim Post ask her details for 28 minutes.

         She has a back window in addition to her back sliding glass door. The window was half open so she hears when the garbled cries start. She can’t see anything through this window. Then she goes to her sliding glass door and looks out during the same time John(W6) is out. So, the timing is the same for W1 and W6. Their attentions are both alerted by the beginning of the cries. They are both out or looking out at the same time. She describes “arms flailing” during this time. They both go back inside at the same time about 20 seconds later.

         There’s a lot about timing here.
         “. . . to me it was instaneously. I went to the window. I mean, I was over there cooking. Heard the noise. Walked over here. Must have been looking for about, I don’t know, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, came back. By the time I reached back to the stove to take the stove off, that’s when the shot went off. So, it couldn’t have been more than, between those two things, before the shot went off, I don’t know, 60 seconds.”

         She’s saying it was about 60 seconds from the time she first heard noises through her kitchen window until the gunshot.

         She also says the overall time from her first awareness to the second time she looked out (which was after the shot) and saw police was about 2 minutes.

         I feel there is much more that can be drawn from each witness. You’ll have to read her description of the struggle. She did not see Austin. In fact, at the time she was looking out she thought it was kids. Even when John(W6) said he would call 911, she still thought it was kids and she was turning the stove off to go outside. It seems she missed the episode of screams for help and did not see the shooting.

       • Aussie – how do we access the witness statements once they are transcribed to read? Thanks!!

         • Screamin Jay posts the link, like this
           http://kiwi6.com/file/1nn4y96q42
           every time he posts one up. You can then keep a list of the links, or better still, download the items and save them in a folder on your own computer. They come out as Word documents but you can open them in any other text editor, too.
           I’d be inclined to copy each witness’s several interviews into one document, for easier comparison of what they said.

           Another possibility is, once ALL statements from one witness are transcribed, would be for NLME to make a blog page for witness statements only, no comments, so we have an easily viewable collection in one spot.

     • I saw some at JusticeQuest (or was it ReallityChatters). I’ve seen some also at TalkLeft. It is a HUGE undertaking!

     • Not a waste of time. GO FOR IT!

222. @NLME

     Marketing specialist? (Info from the MH article) WOOHOO for marketing people. More beer for you if I’m ever in Michigan. Errr, how many beers am I up to owing you now?

     • Michigan serves some of the best craft beers that the world offers. 🙂

       I think it’s around 10-12. But, a) I’m completely making this number up and b) I owe you a few too. Thank you for all the insightful and witty comments (even if they end up breaking the comment system…hahahha).

223. *attempted humor warning”

     Q. How do i get a good picture of Sandra Osterman.
     A. Photoshop. Lots and LOTS of Photoshop.

     —-

     Headline: BccList Posts Prove George Zimmerman Is A Mutant!
     Carefully sifting evidence, the sleuths at Martin/Zimmerman case website bcclist.com have come up with a startling conclusion. While George Zimmerman pursued Trayvon Martin during his call to the police, he had already drawn his gun in anticipation of a showdown with the young man he suspected of being an “asshole.” He was also holding his cell phone, as he did not have a headset of any kind in his possession. And he was holding a tactical flashlight, which he audibly thumps in an attempt to get it to re-illuminate at one point in the call.

     Dr. Emilio Lizardo, a specialist in anatomical anomalies at the University of Jibooti, who has been following the case closely, says, “The conclusion is obvious. Zimmerman has three arms.” Lizardo says that this explains many mysteries of the case. “Many observers have concluded that Zimmerman has something to hide, and obviously this mutation is not something he would want to reveal. It would also explain the confusion about the configuration of his gun holster and its relation to his dominant hand, and the lack of any defensive brusing on his arms – since they only would have checked two of them.”

     Lizardo was asked how Zimmerman could conceal his extra limb during a police interrogation or medical examination. He replied, “Well, it’s speculation on my part of course, since I haven’t been able to examine the patient, but I would guess he’s able to retract it into his anus. It can’t come out of his mouth, because, of course, on one hand he’s talking at the same time, and on the other hand his foot is already in there.”

     Lizardo completely discounted any possibility that Zimmerman might be a space alien. “This is clearly a case of human mutation,” he said. “It’s Florida, after all. There’s something in the water down there.”

     None of the bloggers at bcclist.com could be reached for comment, but Lizardo urged them all to keep up the good work. he concluded, “I’m sure we will learn much more about this strange creature from their continuing brilliant deductive work.”

     —-
     Q: How do i get a good picture of Shellie Zimmerman
     A: Photoshop a picture of Sandra Osterman, and label it “Shellie Zimmerman”.

     • LOL, You owe me a new mouse and pad. Coffee all over it.

     • Q: How do i get a good picture of Shellie Zimmerman
       A: Photoshop a picture of Sandra Osterman, and label it “Shellie Zimmerman”.

       LOL! Now that’s some funny material there.

     • Hahahah!

     • LOL! Very creative. Thanks for the laugh, whonoze.

     • “Well, it’s speculation……but I would guess he’s able to retract it into his anus. It can’t come out of his mouth, because, of course, on one hand he’s talking at the same time, and on the other hand his foot is already in there.”

       The speculation of a three armed GZ fits well with his claim that TM was able to bang his head on concrete, smother him and reach for the gun at the same time. ***** Speaking of things coming out of this mutant, elsewhere on the internet, GZ has been identified as a “human sphincter”, explaining the loads of crap left after every interrogation/ interview. This has left quite a shortage of detectives willing to work on this case, most of them scrambling for the more pleasant midnight patrol shifts instead. And even die-hard journalists are having a hard time getting the real “scoop” on him, since neither their producers nor the housekeeping staff at the hotels are willing to shovel his BS after an interview. *****

     • You guys are so hilarious! It was nice to have a good laugh after a long day!

     • thats just Gold!!! and kinda scarey because it’s kinda true haha….at least truer (is that a word) than anything GZ has ever said…

224. Things that make me violently ill:

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/05/child-porn-ring-uncovered_n_1743599.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl15%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D188388

     How is 18 years in prison justice?

     • Incredible. Yet in Florida it’s 20 years for firing a weapon to warn off an abusive husband. Where’s the sense of proportion here?

       Bless the police who do that sickening work poring over those images, to bring at least a few of the perpetrators to justice.

225. Interesting read…

     http://blackstarnews.com/news/135/ARTICLE/8385/2012-08-05.html

     • MOM attempting to get more funds in the coffers for him to collect. Apparently he’s not concerned with the import this might have for GZ, because MOM just wants to get paid! Having gone off pro bono, he can’t get any state money, but with bail and other expenses eating his lunch, MOM is now in a terrible fix, the funds he once saw as something “to die for” have now dried up and blown away. He’s got to find some formula to get them back flowing first!

       My guess is that after he secures a decent pay day, he’ll bow out, he has plenty of grounds to do it. GZ is in for one wild ride indeed.

226. But seriously… Thinking about GZ’s available number of hands, I think we can conclude the only time he was driving during the NEN call is when he turns the truck around circa “these assholes always get away.”

     We’ve already pretty well established that he didn’t have a headset, and was holding his cell phone to his head with one hand. Then there’s the series of thumps in the background of the first part of the call, which are clearly from the interior of the truck. I initially thought they might be gear shifts, but I now think they’re wipers. But they’re not at regular intervals. In a drizzle, even the slowest intermittent setting may be too fast. So what I do in a light rain, and what I assume most people do, is just turn the wiper on and off quickly whenever it’s necessary. So if GZ was doing that, OR if he was shifting gears, he’s got no hands left for the steering wheel. Ergo, not driving.

     So, first of all, this makes it even more likely that “I called while parked at the clubhouse, then backed out, turned right, turned left and parked on the wrong side of the street” is utter fabrication. It also makes it even more unlikely that GZ was creeping along TTL during the call as willisnewton has suggested – (after all, the man’s not a scofflaw, he’s not going to drive and use a cell phone at the same time!). And it fits tchoupi’s security vid analysis that GZ was parked on TTL, facing the clubhouse, before he made his NEN call.

     • It is also possible that thumping sounds were made by going over speed bumps. We need to know where the speed bumps are.

       • I contend that the vehicle was never moved after the call to police was made. (Well, of course, until Shellie Zimmerman and/or Mark Osterman removed evidence from the crime scene).

         If this is true, the timing heard in Zimmerman’s call of Trayvon walking towards the parked vehicle from the clubhouse, proceeding next/past the vehicle around the 1:30 mark, and eventually running away makes sense.

         Moreover, I’d guess Trayvon would tell DeeDee that some creepy dude was moving his parked truck around in pursuit of him.

       • I believe it was the wipers not speed bumps, IMO.

     • Is GZ’s truck an automatic? It’s perfectly plausible that he can hold a cell phone in one hand or with his head when need be and drive with the other hand. The driving hand does not have to be off the wheel to flick the wiper lever, or even if he does take it off, it’s for a split second. He’s only crawling at like 1 mile an hour so it’s not like the truck was gonna veer off the street if he takes his hand off of steering for a second. If he were a parent, I’d say that his multi-tasking abilities while driving comes from having a kids and needing to get tissues, toys etc with one hand while driving. It was more likely acquired on fast-food runs through the drive through and eating out of the bag while driving. He could probably open and squeeze those little ketchup packets with one hand no problem!

       • The point Whonoze is more than valid. It is that if GZ was parked in front of the clubhouse while on the phone with Dispatcher, then he could not easily stir and switch gears from P to R to D. Just watch the reenactment video. It requires 2 free hands. It also requires the driver to check for traffic behind before and while backing off the parking spot.

         Concerning the thumps they clearly are wipers in intermittent mode. I’m not convinced we can hear they all due to the overlay with the discussion between GZ & Dispatcher. So, I’m not buying yet that GZ was turning the wipers on and off.

         • Hmm, sounds like somebody needs to make a chart of the timing between those thump sounds. Would that be a histogram? 🙂

           • I’m back from vacation full of renewed energy. So, anything feel possible.
             What do you think about a cumulative distribution chart? ;oP

             • Shouldn’t you spend a little time basking in the glory of the Robles article first?

               : – )

         • For your amusement….
           

       • All Ridgelines are automatic transmission, according to the brochures available online.

         San San is right, stopping just requires a foot on the brake, in gear; no need to put it in park.

         One hand is plenty to change gears and steer with, I’ve known several people with one arm missing who had no trouble driving (one, frighteningly, would do so while holding a phone to his ear with his shoulder, too).

         • Just so I’m on the same page, what suggests Zimmerman moved his Ridgeline after calling the police?

           • NLME:

             1. willisnewton suggests GZ was creeping along behind TM while still in the truck, I forget the rationale exactly.
             2. There are a number of ‘thump’ noises in the BG of the NEN call, which could be gear shifts. If so, the truck would logically have been in motion. However, like tchoupi, I am now more inclined to think most of these thumps were made by the wipers.
             3. At 7:11:15, after GZ makes the ‘assholes’ comment, there is a repeated ‘whoosh, whoosh’ sound, which I take to be the nylon jacket rubbing as he makes an extreme turn with the steering wheel, followed immediately by a ‘click-thump’ that I take to be an automatic transmission levered into ‘Park.’ This would be consistent with the following scenario:
             a. GZ initially parks on the N side of TTL, facing the clubhouse, as shown in tchoupi’s light movement analysis. He is parked there when he calls the police.
             b. TM walks out from the clubhouse/mailbox area and passes GZ’s truck heading home. As he passes the truck GZ ‘shits a brick’ and operator Sean says, “just let me know if this guy does anything else.”
             c. Wanting to be able to see TM better than he could via his rear-view mirror, at this point GZ turns the truck around to face East on TTL, giving him a view of the sidewalk leading to the T.

             My take is that it’s just number 3. The truck was stationary through the first part of the NEN call, and the only movement during the call was GZ turning it around to maintain a good view of TM after TM had passed it, and gotten behind it’s original parking point.

             • After Trayvon passes the parked vehicle, you can hear Zimmerman’s tone change as he’s watching the teen in the mirrors while talking to the dispatcher. Or, that’s what I hear at least.

         • I may need to clarify my point here.
           Driving with one hand while on the phone is possible, even with a manual gear. I come from Europe and this is unfortunately something common over there.
           Backing off your parking spot and then moving forward the way GZ had to from the Clubhouse while on the phone is also possible. In this case, manual or automatic gear make no to little difference since you still have to switch from P to R to D.
           However, stirring & switching gears while on the phone with no headset requires the driver to briefly stop the conversation and probably pull the phone away.
           These interruption periods are missing in GZ’s NEN call.

           • While holding a phone in the left hand, It’s possible to steer with your left elbow or at least hold down the steering wheel so it doesn’t move while you briefly use your right hand to shift.
             http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387083/Italian-bus-driver-caught-using-phones-steering-elbows.html

     • Maybe I am misunderstanding the point of your discussion, but sometimes people hold their foot on the brake while they chat on the phone (I do)… So it would have been easy for him to follow without us being aware that he is stopping and starting. Frankly, I don’t see this conflict as being as big a problem as to where his hands were during the fight. There is no getting around real life and death fear that forces one to defend one’s self. He had no hands available even for his own defense, weird. Clearly he was never frightened.

       • Agreed. We won’t necessarily hear stops and starts or even direction changes. Also agree you can multitask while driving although it probably isn’t the safest thing to do.

         Zimmerman could have easily had his phone in speaker mode/car mode if he needed his hands free. But I don’t know what kind of phone he had or what other hands-free add-on/phone cradle junk Zimmerman may have had in his truck. There are some gadgets that people use in their cars to automatically put their phone in speaker mode and revert to normal handheld up-to-the-ear mode when the cell phone is removed from the gadget.

         Of course if Zimmerman was using the phone in some sort of hands-free mode, he’d most likely have had his windows open in order for Trayvon Martin to even know he was on the phone to tell DeeDee. If Zimmerman had his windows open, it probably wasn’t raining any longer. But we know at the beginning of the NEN, Zimmerman said it was raining. We also know it was raining intermittently that night, so maybe the rain had stopped.

         Of course if windshield wipers were still on when its not raining, it could mean the rain recently stopped and either Zimmerman forgot to turn them off (in which case they’d become louder since the wiper blades would have more friction without the slickness of the water), or the wipers were turned off purposefully because Zimmerman realized the rain had stopped and those darned wipers are annoying!

         To me, the only thing useful from determining whether the wipers were on is to determine the likelihood of Zimmerman having had his windows rolled up or down. Few people sit in the car with their windows rolled down when its raining.

         If the defense expects anyone to believe Trayvon Martin’s motive for “attacking” Zimmerman is Martin’s ability to overhear Zimmerman calling the police on him, they’d better know that Zimmerman’s windows were rolled down — hands-free device or phone to ear. No way to overhear that conversation with the windows rolled up. All of the indicators in the conversation that could have been overheard by a non-call participant as a “calling the police event” occurred prior to Zimmerman’s truck door opening as Zimmerman exited his car, phone in hand.

         IIRC, overhearing George Zimmerman’s call after exiting the truck would be heard by a non-call participant as someone giving directions to someone else. Not likely a motive there for even the pro-Zimmermans.

         What I heard sounded like gum-smacking. But I don’t know if Zimmerman chews gum. Could be windshield-wipers, but if it’s windshield wipers on an intermittent schedule, it’s one unique schedule of wipes!

227. Witness 6, John says the black guy was on top when he stepped out and said “Cut it out, I’m calling 911. He has not changed that part of his story/account etc. Witness 9 says in her account that she heard him say I’m calling 911. But she says that the “kid” her words, was laying in the ground moaning and groaning. She heard her neighbor say I’m calling 911. She wondered what was going on, she pulled up the window, the the gun shot was heard. She didn’t see any fighting.

     I know witness accounts are horrible, but she places Trayvon crying moaning and asking for help from the ground before the gun went off. W6, John has Trayvon on top. It doesn’t square with W19.

     I know there is much debate as to W6, truthfulness, he has changed from MMA style to it look more like pinning down. He has changed from GZ yelling help to you can’t really see a mouth. But still he firmly sticks with the black guy was on top.

     http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-19-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

     Track 1

     • He may need the child on top to explain to his fiancee why he didn’t help the kid.

       • @Lonnee –

         I mostly agree with the argument that who was on top can be overcome due to a moving scuffle. However, if the guy on top was Zimmerman, it shows he had an opportunity to get off and move on. I am not convinced he wasn’t on top because of the “white tee-shirt” witness accounts. I am still convinced the white tee-shirt is witnesses seeing Zimmerman’s patterned jacket as a wife-beater tee shirt which is the ONLY thing that could have produced a color “pop” contrast against the night.

         Pay me no mind. I’m just headstrong and will NOT be convinced without cold hard evidence to the contrary.

         • I’m with NLME on this, if GZ had stayed in his truck as he was instructed to by his NW regulations and/or stayed out of TM’s sight, when reminded of the rules by the NEN operator, then none of this would have happened. GZ had no right to look for TM, no right to question or search him, no right to do anything at all, and certainly no right to make the child fear for his safety.
           Thing is GZ doesn’t feel that blacks have any right not to have strange men following them at night. So that’s what this case is all about!

           Did Trayvon have the right not to be followed by a stranger who made him fear for his safety? Yes or NO?

           • The answer is no. The act was assault. Hence, we’re now hearing from Zimmerman that Trayvon skipped away (though he already stated twice in his call to police that the teen ran away and he was in pursuit).

             • Exactly!!! GZ knew that TM was extremely concerned by GZ’s behavior, yet GZ has no right to cause any one, any reason to be concerned by his conduct. At that point right there, GZ could either choose to deescalate those concerns by identifying himself, or continue to illegally present himself as an illegal aggressor, by causing, maintaining and willfully escalating himself to a hostile person, without any legal right to do so.

               Even if TM was Al Capone, without having witnessed a crime, GZ had no legal right to either approach, follow, accost, question or challenge anyone for simply walking through the neighborhood, even if they didn’t belong there!
               GZ is not a police officer! He has no powers or authority to demand or require anything from anybody! Although, perhaps, in his mind he did, that will be the matter that the court will decide. We already know what that decision will be.

               But, in fact, GZ shows substantial evidence of knowing that what he is doing is wrong! He shows it by having improbable, unlikely and impossible answers, for why he should be excused for breaking each NW rule. We might forgive him one breech of the rules, but not several, serially committed, in an effort to justify his long, illegal path, to and past the point, where he kills an innocent child.

     • Who was on top means little because there are many ways for them to wind up on the ground. GZ could have pulled TM down on top of himself, for example. In any event, both witnesses are placing GZ ~40 feet away from where GZ says the confrontation and fighting took place.

       In the experience of fight commissions over the years, they say that the weight difference between fighters makes fighting dangerous for the lighter fighter. And/or, at best an uninteresting contest for the spectator. If we add
       in that youthful lack of coordination, we understand why teenager mismatch fights between youths and heavier adults just don’t happen with any frequency.

       Thus the evidence, in the form of fight commission officials classes, says that TM had a right to fear for his life, even if GZ had been unarmed. While GZ was armed and we have only his self serving word for it, that TM, using his hands, caused GZ to fear for his life. But, of course, there’s no physical evidence that TM’s hands were ever used against GZ, on top of everything else that refutes GZ’s testimony.

       I’m pretty sure the SP will call a qualified professional to explain to the jury why, a heavy adult, security/bouncer/muscle professional, is a terrible threat for a light, young male teen to face.

       • Sorry it took so long to reply going through a ton of emails.
         You said It matters very little who was on top.
         I totally disagree. Considering the evidence so far as to the entry of the shot fired and the cock and bull story Mark Osterman told the FBI, that he had to rotate his hand 90 degrees with his elbow on the ground, is bullshit. The evidence does not support his claim. He had to be on top. Gz was in control of fight struggle, whatever you want to call it at that point in time. He still choose to fire his gun not “the gun” but HIS gun and murder this kid.

         Hopefully the state can prove this and up the charge to Murder One.

         • No, no… I didn’t mean that it was totally irrelavent, just that it isn’t necessary to prove the point. Because even if he was on the bottom, he’d already moved to the grass, so there was no deadly concrete around to justify his continued fear for his life.

           Remember, he claims the reason he had no alternative to shoot, was because his head was ready to explode and he didn’t want to be wearing diapers for the rest of his life.

           So, since the life threatening episode he claims required him to shoot, had long since passed and was then unavailable. The question of why he shot TM remains unanswered.

           • Thank you for the clarification. But I firmly believe it is necessary to prove the point in court. As you stated he had no resonable fear because his head was no longer on the concrete. Im trying to get in the mindset of a juror. If someone who claims he was on the bottom getting his head banged then shot in self defense is plausible. If the state can prove and I believe they will, that GZ was on top of TM when he fired his gun, with no head on concrete, in a superior position and still fired his gun they have met depraved mind of the charge.

             • Yes, if they can prove that GZ on top it’ll be a slam dunk, as you say.

               But, in the event that they can’t prove that, the jury will be looking for some explanation, as to why after GZ managed to successfully wriggle several feet from the concrete, he still feels his head is being banged on that same concrete and not on the soft grass. Why was he thinking his head was going to explode, when the head banging had stopped some time ago?

               How do things “happen so quickly”, 40.5 feet away from where the body is found? The jury will have no choice but to decide that someone is lying about the events of that night. I don’t think that, in their minds, lies are going to be decided in favor of the only man left standing.

               See the problem the defense has? For GZ’s story to be true, it all needs to happen near the ‘T’, otherwise it didn’t happen “suddenly” at all.

               Why would GZ conceal that TM dragged him 40.5 feet south?
               Why would GZ not say he was confused about where he fell and how long it took for him to fall, when he was punched in the nose?
               Why wouldn’t GZ simply state that when punched in the nose, everything went black, and he woke up 40.5 feet away from where he remembered being?

               There were a lot of good explanations GZ could have made, if he had only read Harry Potter!

               My guess is the expenses are sinking the defense team fast, and the future of the case is looking really dim. I don’t think they’ll be able to afford GZ’s expenses much longer, so they’ll likely have to rescind the bail and return GZ to jail, unless someone steps forward to offer him shelter. That way O’Mara can go back to pro bono and at least get paid something by the state.

               People are getting really tired of these strange things coming out of law and enforcement, for example:

             • if only he read Harry Potter, you are too funny.

               : ^ )

228. There was a meeting of involved residents a day or two after the shooting. Does anyone know any more about it?

     A great opportunity for everyone to tell what they saw, and get contaminated by what the others are saying.

     I get this from W1 statement to Serino March 1, when he asked her had she attended the meeting (no further details).

     5.32 in http://kiwi6.com/file/z46t4q281y

     • Was it a Sanford town hall meeting still in February? The one I saw was on TV and made it on YouTube. In a speech Benjamin Crump blasts the city council for not acting fast enough. If not, it might have been an emergency HOA open meeting. Someone made an appeal for witnesses to come forward. That’s when W1 talked to Robert O’Conner. He had Chris Serino contact her later for the March 1 interview.

       • All I remember about this (I remember it from either HuffPo or OS) is that it was an emergency HOA meeting in the days following the shooting. I remember the article mentioning one resident that attended was kicked out because they apparently caused a scene and stated something along the lines of knowing something like this would happen. There had been reports that GZ was reported for aggressive behavior before on NW, but it seems the PD and HOA both deny this allegation.

         • Indeed that’s the meeting where other residents complaints were squashed. The SPD “notification” dated 2/27/12 to the residents only states “In the next several days the Sanford Police Department will hold a community meeting to answer any questions you might have.”

         • HOA link 03/01/12- not too many details- but states that police chief lee attended http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

           • The Retreat meeting W1 refers to happened on Thursday, March 1.

             John Batchelor:
             We understand that you provided a statement to the Sanford Police Department. Was it that same night? (night of shooting)

             Witness 1: No. I think it was the day that they had the town hall meeting and they were talking about the shooting. They said if anybody else knew anything just to say. I didn’t think what I saw was a big deal because I really didn’t see anything. But I was like, “Hey, you know, I just wanted to tell you this was what I saw.” I had pulled one of the investgators aside I think his name began with a Robert. I have his card somewhere. And I was like, “I just want to tell you what I know.” He was like, “Okay, well I’ll have the person who’s doing the investigation of the case give you a call.” And that’s when Chris called me.

             So, her Serino interview was the same night as the meeting. This meeting took place on the Thursday after the shooting. Being a weekday I’m guessing the meeting started around 7pm. It seems to be organized by the police. The Robert is police captain Robert O’Connor. He passes the lead on to Serino. Serino calls W1 from SPD at 9:08pm that night.

229. Another mumble moment from our friend George. I’d be interested in getting your opinion on what he’s saying. I have mine but I don’t want to influence yours.

     I’ve made a cut of GZ’s NEN call. The section is roughly 00:53 to 0:56

     http://kiwi6.com/file/741enaeoxd

     If you hear what I hear then we got something rather big. I mean, he would have said something that contradicts directly his Reenactment.

     It could also be another “Fucking coon” moment. So, I stay cautious here.

     • “He’s AT the clubhouse.”

       It’s not in any transcript for some reason but I noted this on 3/31…

       Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed

       Or, is there something else I missed during those few seconds?!?

       • Exactly! The recording tchoupi just played seems to have more on it than the recording originally released by SPD. The SPD recording seems to have something cut out/redacted.

     • After he says “at the clubhouse”. I hear something like, “He’s at the club jughhhhj.” I am not sure what he is mumbling, but it doesn’t seem like house again to me.

     • He’s at the time…he’s there at the time… That is what I THINK I am hearing.

     • I have also tried to figured out what he says after ” yeah, that’s the clubhouse”…sounds like he’s saying “he’s at the front gates “

       • Two impressions :

         1. It sounds like an gap of audio edited out there. I think GZ was saying “the clubhouse he’s at the dodo duh” At the same time, the cop says something that sounds like “That’s a corn dog, do you know what that is?” Is there an extended version without a cut there? it seem like the cop was asking something that is cut and then butted up against asking “do you know what that is?” about the address. As if “that’s cor[ner .. missing stuff… ]do you know what that is?”

         2. In fact it sounds like *three* different voices at once. 1. GZ, 2. “that’s the corndog” guy and 3. “Do you know what that is?” guy. because corndog sounds like it continues under “Do you know what…”

         Is one of them actually Osterman?

         • Ha! @ Toneii —

           I didn’t hear the corn dog refs, but otherwise, I’d say we’re operating with the same ears! Just posted the same thing about the redaction above.

     • Earlier in the call:
       GZ: The best address I can give you is one eleven retreat view circle.

       Later:
       Sean: 1111 retreat view or one eleven?
       GZ: that’s the..that’s the clubhouse. ***He’s at the BLANK1 BLANK2**
       Sean: Is he near the clubhouse right now?
       GZ: yea, now he’s coming towards me.

       The words “He’s at the” is rather clear even though Sean is talking over him. BLANK1 seems like it’s a single word. It almost sounds like club, because we’re assuming he’s saying “clubhouse”, but BLANK2 does not sound like house so he’s not saying that. BLANK1 could be “gate” or “pool” even though those words don’t sound alike. I’m leaning towards “gate”. In fact, BLANK2 sounds like the word “right…” with the inflection going up. I am guessing he said “He’s at the gate, right….” as if he’s about to say “…right by the something or other” but got cut off by Sean talking over him. Not a 100% sure on the word “gate” though. I’m about 50% sure on the word “right”. This is driving me mad.

     • “He’s at the pool fence”

       • No do-overs! You already said “front gate”…this is really confusing me now…..

       • “he’s [it’s] past the [tall?] fence” this is exactly how witness testimony works- everyone sees/hears something slightly different- there must be sound techs that can isolate this though

         • Two people hear a splice/edit and one person noted a transcript is missing some info.

     • In the clip, I hear GZ say “…the clubhouse. He’s at the [something]” While I can’t make out what [something] is, I can tell a few things about it, ruling out some of the guesses already made.

       There are at least two syllables, and no more than three. The last syllable ends in something like “ence”, so it could be “fence”. But I don’t hear an ‘f’, The consonant sounds more like a stop plosive, a ‘b’ or ‘d’ but that wouldn’t make sense. The end of the last syllable could also be something close to “ence”, like “ents” or maybe “unce”.

       The first syllable could be “club’ but there’s an odd hang up in there. That is, if he’s saying the word “club” it come out more like “Cluh Ub”. So if it’s two syllables, it’s either oddly pronounced, there’s a glitch in the recording, or the vowel sound in the first syllable is a dipthong. It could be “front” or rather “Fruh Unt”. Or it could conceivably end in a ‘liguid’, like ‘tall.”

       Anyway, I’d say the last syllable is definitely NOT “time” or “gates” or “right”, and I’d also say the first syllable is definitely NOT “pool” or “gate”.

       So, of the suggestions made so far, only “he’s at the tall fence” would seem to be in the phonetic ballpark, but it doesn’t seem to make semantic sense. That is, even if there were a “tall fence” nearby, which I don’t think there is, that phrase would be an unlikely way of describing something to someone on the other end of the phone.

       So, I’m stumped, and awaiting tchoupi’s interpretation.

       • Dammit! The power of suggestion…I’m now hearing “fence.” I know you say the first word doesn’t sound like pool, but do you know if the pools are fenced in?

         • @QETNO, the power of suggestion, indeed! After LeeLee said “front gate”, then that was what I kept hearing, but now I’m not so sure of anything anymore. I’d make a horrible earwitness. There is a fence around the pool, but it’s not tall (see video at 0:37 mark).
           

           @whonoze, could the first word of the mumble be “back”? As in “He’s at the back fence?” If that’s the case, then GZ can’t be in front of the clubhouse but on TTL already at that point looking back at the pool area.

           • Of course, he could just be stammering, and not articulating clearly. But if there are pronounced words hidden under Sean’s crosstalk, I highly doubt the first one could be ‘back’. There’s nothing like a hard ‘k’ sound in there. Also of note that i didn’t mention before, the last syllable (_ence, _ents, _unce??) is accented, so it’s cant be the second syllable of a two syllable word where the first is stressed.

             I don’t have the time/energy right now to put in an audio app where i can scrub it, or do other tricks to try to break it down better. But just listening in real time again, the first part of the mystery lingo could be “front of”… So perhaps, GZ was trying to say “He’s at the front of [something]” or “He’s at the club [something]” but by the time he got to [something] Sean was well into his interrupting question, and GZ swallowed what he was going to say, or his tongue just tripped over a midstream change of thought.

             Going back to the full tape, the few seconds tchoupi has isolated seem to correspond to the precise moment TM begins walking toward the truck. The next thing GZ says after the mumble is “now he’s coming towards me,” an action that must have began prior to being able to be described in that way. So perhaps seeing TM’s first clear movement away from the clubhouse area while tryng to listen to Sean’s interruption caused GZ to stumble over that last word, rendering it as utter gibberish.

             I too note that the sound on tchoupi’s short clip seems different (and better) than on the recordings of the NEN call I have, and ask him to point us to the specific larger file from which he extracted that little piece.

           • Whonoze: “… the few seconds tchoupi has isolated seem to correspond to the precise moment TM begins walking toward the truck.”.

             I agree.

     • Ahhh — the latter mumbling. Most everybody agrees the first part is something like “He’s at the clubhouse.”

       Yes, I just woke up in the middle of the night to check responses — ha! Looking forward to reading tchoupi’s take.

     • Can you share or direct me to the original full length version of the copy of the recording from which you’re working?

       unitron

       • Unitron,

         This is the full NEN call…

         http://kiwi6.com/file/8q72co3260

         I used the 2/29 interview with Serino & Singleton to check that the mumbling was in the original copy as I couldn’t make sense of why GZ would mumble at this point of his call.

     • Conclusion 1: This is another “fucking coon” moment.
       Conclusion 2: I had lots of fun reading each interpretation.

       What I heard GZ mumbling is: “He’s past the clubhouse”.
       That would have indicated that GZ and TM were already on TTL.

       In any cases, there are a 2 things I don’t understand with that clip of the NEN call:
       1) Why can’t I make sense of what Sean is saying. I can’t even recognize his voice and I can’t make sense of what he’s saying. For the whole (maybe most) Sean is loud and clear.
       2) Why would GZ mumble to describe TM’s location? I can understand that he mumbles to swear (“fucking …”) or when he thinks “loudly” (“My key is …”). But, GZ shouldn’t be mumbling his description to dispatcher of the suspect’s whereabouts.

       • What Sean says over GZ is “Do you know what the…” a question he does not finish because George is still talking.

         George is not mumbling any more than usual with the possible exception of that last syllable as noted above. It sounds more subdued on the recording because Sean is talking over him, obscuring him, and the ALC may be dropping the overall volume at that point because both men speaking at the same time would have boosted the level past peaking.

         I would say there is 0% chance the last syllable is ‘house’. (Though he could have meant to say ‘clubhouse’ and just had gibberish come out…)

         To me the big question from your interpretation is whether GZ is saying “He’s at the…” or “He’s past the…” At normal speed you can’t really tell, but if you could scrub it etc. in an audio app, you should be able to detect the presence or absence of the plosive ‘p’ as well as the sibilant ‘s’ in “past’. BTW, you can’t really do anything with .mp3s, you need to convert them to .WAV or .AIFF first.

         • I actually don’t work in mp3. I converted the original in audacity format.
           I originally use Audacity for cutting music for my daughter’s figure skating. But, It does much more than that. I particularly appreciate the signal analysis capabilities with graphic outputs which is more in my field than sound is.
           What do you recommend?

         • I took a shot at checking the “at” versus “past” question. I came up with ‘at’. No sign of any consonant, much less a ‘p’. No sign of an ‘s’ between the vowel and the ‘t’ sound.

           Re: “He’s got gun”. No way it’s ‘got.’ the vowel is absolutely a flat ‘a’ (as in ‘at’ ‘flat’ ‘fat’ ‘hat’) and there’s definitely a ‘the’ in there.

           However, breaking it down, I realize what I hear at normal speed as an ‘s’ on the end of the last syllable may be just boosted white-noise. So the vocalization (I’m not even sure it’s a word) may end in ‘n’. The vowel is still obscure: could be ‘un’, could be ‘en’, (don’t think it could be ‘in’ or ‘an’ or ‘ain’)

           So, just phonetically, “He’s at the club gun.” would be possible, but it doesn’t make any sense. It also flows too quickly to make it a plausible self-interuption to change topic: “He’s at the club… Gun!” there’s not enough stress on the last syllable for that.

           —
           TECH STUFF (for anyone who cares)

           Scrubbing (which means going back and forth over the sound by moving the playhead manually) didn’t help, because digital audio just doesn’t scrub very well – the samples break up instead of maintaining continuous sound.

           Which leaves you with slowing it down to different speeds, isolating different sections to playback things w/o possibly confusing contexts of the sounds before and after.

           You can do all that in Audacity. I just don’t like the interface. (It’s also not good for cutting music, because it’s a ‘destructive waveform editor.’ Better for music would be a ‘non-destructive multi-track mixer’ e.g. Garageband or Mixcraft on the lower and more user friendly end, for Mac and PC respectively.

           I no longer have a good ‘pro’ audio app that I know how to use and runs on my computer. So until I get around to learning something like Logic, I’m mostly using the audio section of Final Cut Pro 7, just because I know how to do stuff with it, not because it’s the best tool for the job.

           • Thanks Whonoze. I’ll have a look at the tools you’re recommending.

230. About George’s shoes and the north/south sidewalk.

     First from witness 11 near the beginning of her interview with John Batchelor:
     “Kind of sounded like two, three, maybe a group of guys. We couldn’t really tell. So I muted the TV and then the talking stopped and it was more like a scuffling across the grass and pavement there.”

     This witness is only hearing all of this. She never saw anything. First question is, How do you hear scuffling? Next, how can she know they are on grass? But the big one, What tells her they are on pavement?

     This could be really big because Trayvon was wearing tennis shoes. Now, this witness probably heard other indicators of movement such as vocalizing or heavy breathing. She says the talking has stopped. But I’m going to suppose that in order to know ‘pavement’, she hears some other kind of shoes besides Trayvon’s hitting against the pavement.

     Now witness 1 near the beginning talking with Chris Serino:
     “I was making dinner, and I heard a noise, it was a screaming noise, and I thought it was kids playing in the back like they normally do. It sounded like somebody saying either, “No” or something like “Uh” and they were running in the back…”

     Same situation. This witness says this is while she looks out her little window but can’t see anything. She is only hearing. Again, how can she hear them running? I’m focusing on hearing footsteps probably on the sidewalk. I’m thinking the shoes making those footstep sounds might be telltale. Notice THEY were running. This would be Trayvon and somebody? Or George and somebody? Also, this is 3 doors south of what W11 heard. Is it the same time? Could she have heard a northbound chase whereas W1 heard a southbound scuffle?

     • I have only heard a real fight in the street once. I live on the second floor with a balcony and the fight, apparently between two young men who knew each other, took place late at night on the narrow stone street below. It’s sort of an enclosed place — I live in a medieval French village — so maybe the sounds were magnified. But I was shocked at how loud the fight was: the blows and slaps, the fists and palms hitting the body and face, the heavy breathing, grunts, gasps, and angry vocalization, as well as the sounds of their feet/shoes on the stones, not to mention the cries of their female friends/relatives for them to stop. An actual, spontaneous, furious fist fight is a very loud and frightening thing to hear and see.

       I don’t think TM could have hit GZ even once, much less repeatedly, without someone hearing it, if witnesses were hearing other sounds of the scuffle or were close enough to see it. A real punch is a distinctive and disturbing thing to hear.

       • I believe that’s the point of follow up interviews with W6. W6 and none of the other witnesses heard any fighting noises. No stlamming or hitting concrete. No hand/fist to flesh noises.

         MMA is off the table. Why didn’t W6 go outside? Why did W6 fly past his fiance to call 9-1-1? Why did it take so long for W6 to reach 9-1-1? Why did W6 speak in past tense on his 9-1-1 call? Why did W-6 hide behitnd his front door when interviewed by the media?

         • W6 has some major explaining to do — as previously mentioned in a blog posting — especially if his call to 911 was connected 1+ minute after the shot (as is suggested by those that have examined call timings).

           “John” never went outside, he sort of went outside but not too far, he heard a shot while on the phone with 911 and running upstairs, etc.

       • “It’s sort of an enclosed place, so maybe the sounds were magnified.”

         Acoustics make a huge difference, and small differences in configuration can make huge differences in acoustics. In some of the great concert halls you can hear a pin drop on stage from the middle of the house. In other halls you might just hear mush in the third row.

         We have no idea how sound travels in that part of The Retreat. Witnesses who were farther away could have had heard things much more clearly than others who were a lot closer. It all depends on how the waves bounce.

         But, I think overall, you’re on the right track. There were enough ear-witnesses around the scene at different positions that it’s unlikely there could have been serious punching or head slamming without someone hearing those sounds. Not impossible, but not very likely.

         I wonder if one of the parties will get an acoustician to go make tests of the various listening positions and possible source positions… in a light rain. Probably not.

         • Two shots were heard by at least one witness. While two shots ended up not occurring and the sound of a gunshot echoes well in many environments, it would suggest sound definitely echoes in the corridor.

231. FYI – I looked at your transcription #1 and it looked pretty darned accurate to me. Serino sure was talking fast on that one! Haven’t had a chance yet to compare #2 to the recorded statement. Thanks for doing this. That’s one hella big job to undertake and commit to.

232. Armed with only his bare hands, this listing of boxing weight classifications makes it impossible to give GZ a reason to fear for his life with mere hand to hand combat as the source of danger. Since TM was clearly the one in danger from hand to hand.

     Weight class (boxing)

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_class_%28boxing%29

     In boxing, a weight class is a standardized weight range for boxers. The upper weight limit for each class is the lower limit of the next higher class.

     @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
     ———————————————————————————————
     ====> Size mismatches were dangerous for the smaller boxer
     and unsatisfying for the spectators. National and world titles
     could only become recognised if standard weight classes
     were agreed upon.
     ———————————————————————————————
     @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

     Important sets of weight classes were those specified in 1909 by the National Sporting Club of London, and those contained in the 1920 Walker Law which established the New York State Athletic Commission (NYSAC).

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_Law

     Current Weight Divisions

     http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Weight_divisions

233. Here’s another hole in the GZ defense story: A pro-GZ commenter over at TalkLeft recently wondered/noticed that if TM was the aggressor and was beating/smothering/pounding GZ, why didn’t he get up and run off when the witness (Jon?) looked out and yelled out that he was calling the police? Why did TM instead keep at it and, according to GZ, reach for GZ’s gun?

     Of course, the whole idea that a suddenly crazed TM dropped his phone conversation to attack/brutally beat/try to kill GZ during the dinner hour in front of dozens of people is pretty ridiculous anyway.

     But I guess if some believe TM was so out of his mind to do that, maybe they could believe that he was too crazed to care or notice that the police were on the way.

     • @Pooh, because the witnesses’ accounts are spotty, we’re forced to try and make sense of at least some of what GZ is claiming. Sadly, not much of it does. I think the biggest hole in the self-defense story is GZ’s claim that TM said “You’re going to die tonight MF.” when reaching for the gun. Regardless of who threw the first punch or why didn’t either of them retreat, it boils down to that moment right before GZ shoots. We’re all about 99.9999999% sure that sentence was concocted when GZ didn’t know who TM was and thought that his characterization of an aggressive thug would fly. That’s a lot to say in the heat of the moment. The word “tonight” sounds like they’ve been in a long-time feud and this is the final showdown. Why not “You’re dead”? But he would be more believable to just simply say TM reached for the gun, because it’s implicit that when someone reaches for a weapon during a fight that there’s a potential for them to use it. He dug a deeper hole for himself by embellishing a lie.

       • Yes, the death threat is ridiculously not credible, among many things GZ says. And the fact that GZ claims TM uttered this dramatic death threat after a witness had just come out, yelled at them, said he was calling the police, and GZ responds, no help me, after which TM continues relentlessly pounding, smothering, uttering the death threat, reaching for GZ’s gun, would require the jury to decide between 1. TM is utterly, recklessly insane without any concern about being caught for murder or 2. TM was not the aggressor.

       • And this is without mentioning that TM had no history of violence whatsoever.
         TM would have to snap with no visible reason. Indeed, in his own words, GZ did nothing that could have made him snap. In other words, TM was simply insane with nobody noticing. Even not his girlfriend who was on the phone with him while the drama was unfolding.

     • @Pooh –

       Because they are NOT weighing the actual facts. What they weigh is only what Jeralyn hasn’t deleted. IIRC, TalkLeft doesn’t consider it discussion-worthy if a witness gives a media interview (unless of course it’s a beg-o-mercial to raise money for zimmerman).

       You can’t get to the evidence at Talk Left because Jeralyn (who isn’t a judge) plays judge like Zimmerman played cop and exercises a falsely assumed “authority” to squash reasonable fact-finding.

     • Do you have a link for that comment at TalkLeft?

       Somehow I missed seeing it over there.

       unitron

       • Not sure how to link to TalkLeft’s deletions. Actually, I am sure how to post them and link to proof of deletions, but I’m not sure that’s what you were asking about. Please clarify which comment you’re asking about.

         • You said someone at TL said why didn’t Trayvon take off when 6 or whoever said they were calling the cops, but if Jeralyn’s already sent that one down the memory hole, there is no link, and that would also help explain why I never saw it in the first place.

           Thanks anywho,

           unitron

           • Sorry, I looked for the comment again before posting. There were too many long threads, it was late, and I couldn’t find it. But it was just a recent comment from someone belatedly troubled, slightly, by the odd fact that TM didn’t get up and run off when the witness said he was calling the police. To me this detail is crucial. Because truly, this finale, which distills the whole ridiculous scenario, sets up a situation where the jury has only those two choices: either TM was so determined to kill GZ that he didn’t care about witnesses, police, arrest, jail, execution, etc. or TM was not attacking GZ, GZ is lying, and GZ murdered TM.

             • If he got enraged enough to attack, practically ambush, Zimmmerman, then I could sort of see where he wouldn’t be thinking any farther into the future than his next couple of punches or taking any notice of voices around him.

               But what gets him to that point?

               If there’s any evidence that he’s that volatile, it’s certainly well hidden.

               I know there’s been speculation based on some fight referreeing video and a rumor about swinging on a bus driver, but if there was any “there” there, why haven’t the salacious details been all over the internet, if not the actual news.

               Is it really possible that that sort of blind rage is in character for him and someone’s managed to keep any other evidence of that quiet all of this time?

               unitron

           • TM would have to have had a sudden, suicidal break with reality, immediately following lengthy and completely normal phone conversations with friends, interaction with store clerk, etc. Don’t know about the alleged “swinging at a bus driver.” But the so-called “fight club video,” if it even includes this deceased Trayvon Martin, is a video of a perfectly ordinary, controlled boxing match between two young boys on a playground surrounded by children playing in the sun. Boxing is a popular sport included in the Olympics. The alleged “Trayvon Martin” is supposedly serving as the REFEREE. This requires being fair, judicious, reasonable, trusted, etc.

             If TM, in the middle of a phone conversation with his friend, suddenly went so insane that he no longer cared about the consequences of his actions, he sure was cunning and rational about it, i.e. lying in ambush. Surely such uncontrolled rage would have resulted in rather more serious wounds to GZ’s face and body than the minor cuts and scrapes GZ suffered.

           • @Pooh

             I’m not sure if TM is in that video, either. I do believe “watch out Trayvon” is heard, but I’m sure there is more than one person in the world with that name.

             I came across a YT vid a long time ago (wouldn’t be able to link the exact vid – I apologize), but the poster theorizes that he *does* see TM in the video, but he is NOT one of the fighters and he is NOT the ref. The person believes it is TM being told to basically get out of the way and that he can be seen going to sit in the audience. IIRC, they also believed the person shows concern when seeing a punch that was unfair.

             Would be interesting to know if it is him or not. I don’t see anything wrong with the fight; it seems controlled with two willing participants. *shrug*

             Also, we don’t know what’s up with the alleged swinging on a bus driver and “stolen” (it was NEVER reported by anyone as stolen) jewelry, but you think if this things happened that those people would be coming forward to talk about how bad TM was.

             • My take is they’re trying everything to sling mud on the kid. Jewelry? Probably women’s costume jewelry and most likely broken, he had a screwdriver, so what? Most likely he found the broken jewelry and we know kids are attracted to shiny things, he probably tried to repair it as a gift for his girlfriend. Not that he needed to, with his truck driving father able to give him a decent allowance, he probably could have purchased better himself. But, as something to do hobby style, there’s nothing unusual about it. Geeze, it’s not like anyone claimed it was worth hundreds or thousands of dollars, which would certainly receive a mention if there was some substance to these claims.

               You’d think TM’s detractors would be more careful about what they offer, since they were caught displaying a photo/video of a Trayvon Martin who lives in New York with a gold “grille”. I’d be willing to bet that if we wanted to do the same thing, we could probably find some really reprehensible George Zimmerman’s somewhere to post.

               The people MOM calls on to testify for GZ will have their internet activities looked at for impeachment material.

             • @ Lonnie, Mudslinging especially about a victim is wrong, but (and I’m trying to say this with respect) it also doesn’t help to describe what to me sounds like implausible explanations (repairing broken found jewelry for girlfriend? A hobby? Uh…no. TM never made the claim). Just for clarification, I want to direct you to this article in the Miami Herald: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

               “Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds. Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.Martin replied “It’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend. ”

               While we haven’t seen the report or heard from the person making the report, we have to assume this reporter did, and there is a possibility of truth to it. What can we say about it though? He had the opportunity to claim it was his girlfriends, but he didn’t. TM says a friend gave it to him. He was could have been holding the “merchandise” for a friend, and due to loyalty, he wasn’t gonna rat the friend out. Or it was compensation for some deal between them. At worse, he participated in the theft itself.

               Does it have anything to do with the shooting? GZ couldn’t have known about it. However, unlike the cigar/blunt issue which I fail to find relevance with, I think the defense will zero in on this because if true, it lends support to GZ’s initial suspicion that TM was casing houses. I’m not saying they’re going to be successful at making that argument since the police never did prove that the jewelry was stolen, but maybe it’s just enough to convince one juror. Where they will fail is to prove that TM was violent. He was never suspended for violence or caught with a weapon.

               Again, I am not at all saying that TM was definitely a thief. But even if he were, he didn’t deserve to get shot. Not over weed, not over trinkets. It’s only in a warped mind that a young man’s life is worthless if he got into a little trouble. The “good” guys are also not immune to this kind of sentiment though. In the interrogation, Serino goes “if he were a goon, a bad kid, then thumbs up, but….” Really? Do all goons deserve getting shot, and what constitutes a “bad kid”? We have to let that kind of thinking go, and concede that TM was human too. Even If he were carting away a bicycle, flat screen TV and an armful of metal/rocks that humans have deemed as ridiculously valuable, then he still wouldn’t have deserved to get shot. No one does. Things do not equal a life.

             • “At worse, he participated in the theft itself.”

               What theft?

               Do you think the judge is going to allow the defense to go in court and say Martin may or may not have been involved in a theft which may or may not have happened?

               Let me put it another way.

               WHAT THEFT?

               unitron

             • My bad, should have said “the theft that the school security suspected TM of committing by having the jewelry in his possession but was not able to prove.” Better? The friend hasn’t come forward to claim that it was his/hers, and as far as we know the school did not return the jewelry and had turned over photos to the police. As far as the defense is concerned, it’s still an open case, and all I’m saying that they will more logically pursue than the cigar/blunt/lean drink thing. Analogous to the prosecution submitting GZ’s injunction by his girlfriend as evidence of GZ’s “violent” past, submitting the school’s report and photos submitted to police of the jewelry can also be deemed by defense as evidence of TM’s propensity for “suspicious behavior” (Please note the quotations and my effort to make an analogy here….). Neither TM’s nor GZ’s violent/illegal behavior has been proven. All both sides can do right now is establish a pattern. How many cases have been convicted or acquitted on circumstantial evidence????? Just trying to get into GZ’s and the defense team’s mindset….it’s a dirty job but somebody’s gotta do it…..

             • “Your honor, at this time we’d like to introduce into evidence that there’s someone who thinks the victim might have done something wrong a few weeks before the night in question.”

               Oh, yeah, that’ll sail right through.

               There are at least 3 sites run by actual lawyers where the Zimmerman/Martin case is currently being discussed.

               Why don’t you try that out for one of them and see what they have to say?

               I fear you won’t care for the answer you will receive.

               unitron

             • Sorry, I’m scared of lawyers…. can never understand the fine print on any document I sign… I’m comfortable right here spewing BS out of my own brain and seeing what sticks.

             • @ unitron, Oh and I’m no lawyer so I can’t begin to guess what the judge will allow to be hashed out in court, but doesn’t mean the defense won’t try to make their case. We’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we?

             • Interesting that you don’t like implausible explanations. I’ve been around jewelers a bit, so, what’s implausible to me is that anyone would set real diamonds, even chips, in sterling silver. So that silver they’re mentioning would more likely be white gold eh? But then, at 1700 dollars per ounce, it’s fairly unlikely there would not be a claimant and/or a police report on file.
               While, on the other hand, diamonds set in silver would have to be a custom made item. Again, I sincerely doubt that anyone would not be chasing after a cherished custom made item.

               Please don’t think that school security guards have the expertise to tell real jewelry from fake. Even some knowledgeable people can’t do that without applying some tests. So, I have some pretty good reasons to believe that the jewelry found was costume jewelry. As for the police, they don’t need much expertise at all, they just have to sort through the pictures of missing jewelry and descriptions they have on file. If they find a likely match, then they send the stuff to their labs/experts.

               Which is why I say that most likely what Trayvon was “caught” with, was worthless costume jewelry. Since that’s the only thing that explains why there was no follow ups and no complaints. In fact, they never even bothered to put a value on the stuff. That’s the first thing you do when stolen jewelry is encountered.

               Like most kids, they want to believe that the things they have are real, so the school policeman was just playing along, attempting to scare Trayvon. If he had real jewelry on hand, he’d have certainly had the leverage he needed to make Travyon give up the mysterious friend. When TM refused, the cop knew that he’d be laughed out of the station if he tried to pursue it, so he just let it drop. Or… Would you like us to believe that TM was caught with jewelry worth thousands of dollars, and no one bothered to press the issue?

             • @Lonnie, I have no idea how much that stuff was worth and not trying to say that TM or imaginary friend robbed a diamond store. Come on! I was replying to your scenario that he was fixing broken jewelry for his girlfriend with a large flathead screwdriver as a hobby was “implausible”. Had you said, the screwdriver could be for fixing his bike, that to me would be plausible. But he didn’t offer that explanation, or maybe he did, but the guard ignored it. We may never know the truth, unless O’Mara and company can unearth anything, but as you’ve already determined, he won’t find anything but will be all too happy to let the swirling suspicions will continue.

             • I have no idea why you say that fixing jewelry is an implausible use of a screw driver. In any event, I was just proposing some of the alternative explanations, any of which would be just as valid as the implications to be drawn. —> Kid finds broken jewelry, tries to use screwdriver to straighten clasps or close links. Has idea that his girl friend might like it, if it’s fixed?

               The only thing I find implausible is that, valuable, expensive jewelry, taken from someone without their permission, would not trigger a police report with identifying characteristics and/or photos. AND that police would not seek an appraisal of the jewelry, unless they believed it was worthless and therefore not worth the effort.

               You are aware that police do try to use scare tatics, eh? Trayvon seems to be acting (by way on refusing to reveal his source) as if he believes the jewelry is genuine and valuable. The Police, on the other hand, are acting as though the jewelry is worthless, but that by pretending it might be stolen, are giving TM pause to fear.

               We do have an idea of what police will do if they think they have found valuable jewelry, they will first try to determine it’s value, then they may advertise for it’s owner. Only if they know on inspection that the jewelry is costume/worthless, will they ignore the rest of the steps.

             • I know I said I would not post anymore however, due to the recent event of the hearing I feel I am should. As to the Stand Your Ground Hearing, I thought Shakesphere wrote “A Comedy of Errors”. After the TV interview and all, I am hearing that GZ has really put his foot in his mouth. I again feel that O’Mara is not running the show, GZ is. On GZ side is that if he does not win at the Stand Your Ground Hearing, O’Mara can appeal, thus drawing this case on even further.

               Another thing I am hearing is that GZ was a Captain of a Neigborhood Watch of one and a great deal of lack of oversight by the HOA. Further if you check the website of the Neighborhood Watch, The one GZ was in charge of is not registered, meaning it was not offical. Ms Fulton has a good chance of winning.

               Lastly if anyone can verify this question that appears in this new article. Did TM have his arms around GZ?

               http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmerman-will-stand-his-ground/2012/08/10/4975854c-e2e0-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_blog.html

             • @ Lonnie, I really don’t want to belabor this much more and concede that the whole issue is a non-issue unless O’Mara pulls up anything concrete. I was just guessing before that he’d be putting at least some resources into it to dig up dirt. That’s not a far-fetched guess.

               But to respond specifically to the “broken jewelry” thing. I already said I don’t know how much that it was worth as there is no documentation other than the school guard’s report, so we don’t know if it’s broken or the queen’s stash. As you said, likely not worth anything since follow-up was not done. The family has denied ever knowing about it. Why I found your comment implausible was that I thought it had been described as a “large” flathead screwdriver, and not a tiny little one like the one I have to fix my glasses. You wouldn’t be fixing jewelry with a large screwdriver.

               Of course I’m aware of police scare tactics. Serino seemed to have been doing some of it with GZ. But as far as I know, it was just the school security guard and not police that interrogated TM.

               Please don’t read this also as if I’m leaning towards believing the kid was a thief. It’s more that I’m daring the defense to go ahead and try to find anything and we’ll see who looks better in the light of day, because we already know GZ’s character by all of his bold-faced lies. I apologize if I was being snarky, and I hope you didn’t take a personal offense to my comment. Perhaps I mistook your brainstorming event (I’ve done that here to try and explain things and got ridiculed for it) as trying too hard to offer a sweet innocent explanation, and I just had a knee-jerk ‘ewww’ reaction.

               Can we shake hands and make up please?

             • Agreed, the matter is inconsequential. I don’t bother assessing “snarky” unless someone puts enough snarky words into it, to make it appear intentional. Just as I’ve learned not to take, what might seem confrontational/offensive, as actually being that. Again, unless the writer puts enough into it (or is short enough) to make it appear intentional. Otherwise I just put it down to the internet “shorthand” we use to get ideas out without a whole lot of “after you Alphonse”. 🙂 In face to face conversations, we’d use facial expressions and hand gestures to convey that we didn’t mean what we were saying etc., all of which to do with wordplay would be quite a task.

               My comeback as not meant as any attack, what I was trying to do was, investigate if my own reasoning had failed me yet again. Now I see it was just that the improper tool was for the job. But, I don’t think I’m wrong to think that many jobs are attempted and even accomplished with the wrong tool.
               So, just be aware, don’t judge the job by the tool chosen to do it. LOL!

               We’ll get along just fine! Feel free to challenge me whenever I post something that doesn’t seem right to you. Aussie filled in the blanks for me, back when I was a “TM front gate return” aficionado. He won with his cut through advocacy with some very heavy back up.

               So now back to the chase.
               with warmest regards

             • @Lonnie, agreed, back to the chase!

               But….. I can’t resist quoting you…

               “So, just be aware, don’t judge the job by the tool chosen to do it. LOL!”

               You are too funny! I’m giggling uncontrollable here like Anderson Cooper on the Ridiculist! …must….pull….mind….out…of…gutter……

234. I have added a timeline chart. It’s at the same place (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII) right after the witness summary.

     It’s something I wanted to do for a long while and I don’t know why I postponed it. I’m not looking for excuses. You can throw tomatoes to me if you want. I deserve it.

     I believe it’s a great tool. However (and as usual) if you have corrections & remarks, don’t hesitate telling me. I’d rather have this clean & pristine.

     The chart is 95% based on the calls made on that night. The 5% left are comments based on other inputs such as police log & witness accounts.

     What I discover and i’m not saying there isn’t other interpretations:
     1) T-mobile may be rounding up the time of a call to the next minute. So, it would be something like 7:12 means any time between 7:11:01 & 7:12:00, and 7:16 means any time between 7:15:01 & 7:16:00. Can anyone confirm that. If it is confirmed then I’ll have to correct the chart where I assumed the opposite (rounding to the previous minute).
     2) It took no more than 46sec for GZ to stand up after he fired his gun. This is based on Jayne’s (W18) call.
     3) It must be during those 46sec that Selma & Mary were out yelling toward GZ “what’s going on?”, and it must be during that time that GZ asked them to go call 911. The fact is that 12sec after GZ stood up, Mary was connecting with dispatcher.
     4) Manalo is spotted (by Jayne) just 5 seconds after GZ stood up. Assuming it took him 20sec to walk from RVC to the T, we can estimate that GZ was probably standing and walking alone for about 30sec. Alone is not exactly correct since Selma is still out when Manalo arrives
     5) Manalo took the pictures just 21sec before T. Smith arrives.
     6) Because Jayne, who lives north of the T, can hear GZ saying that he shot TM just seconds after noticing T. Smith waking, I have to conclude that GZ & Smith were loud and therefore started communicating before being next to each other. in other words, GZ probably was at the T when Oficer T. Smith arrived.
     7) It doesn’t look like anyone noticed GZ’s smaller flashlight before Manalo saw it on the ground. So, there is no witnessing of GZ throwing/dropping it to imply that he was at the T when the scuffle started. I mean, many witnesses were out early after the gunshot and saw no flashlight before Manalo’s.

     • Susan at LL2 came up with someway that seemed to make sense at the time to explain why the young lady’s call probably ran from 7:11:30 PM to 7:15:30 PM.

       It’s in the timeline thread she did, starting back in March or April.

       unitron

       • That would work although 30sec is really tight. But again, it works.

         In DeeDee’s interview with BdlR, she says that the phone hang up while TM was walking home and she called back soon after he passed GZ’s truck and shortly before he started running.
         TM runs at 7:11:41. So, the brief interruption would have happen any time between 7:11:30 & 7:11:40. It works but it’s only 10sec.

         Another possibility is that T-mobile logs the starting time as you describe (minute +-30sec => minute) and counts any started minute as one full minute.
         If that’s the case, the 18minute call logged from 6:54 would have started between 6:53:30 & 6:54:30 and would have ended 17min + x sec later meaning between 7:10:31 & 7:12:29.
         That gives up to 70sec for DeeDee to dial back and reconnect with TM.

         It would be nice to know how it works though.

         • I’m too lazy and easily distracted to try to summerize and explain Susan’s magnum opus, so I’ll let it speak for itself

           Minute-by-Minute Timeline of Trayvon Martin’s Death

           and just note that what I just realized that I really, really want is a a ringtone of Sally Field saying

           “Ski-up, Trayvon, ski-up!”

           unitron

           • Susan writes that trace of blood was found on the packet of skittles that was found inside TM’s hoodie pocket. This is an information that I missed. Can anyone tell me were that was reported?

         • I will try to call Tmobile later today. If anybody else wants to call them (and obviously comment back here) in the event I don’t get a chance, wonderful!

     • Terrific job TC. I know how much work it was because I’ve attempted such projects myself. I’ve completed a few of them, some had to be abandoned because of the complexity and/or the relevance expired. That happens with court cases, you do all this work and suddenly there’s a plea deal.

       Mind if I add a bit of criticism? (Okay, you did say you welcomed it).

       Although many people who have followed this case closely, can easily pick up your sarcasm, it worries me that people without so much knowledge will totally miss the points you’re making with it.
       (you should also ask for proof readers to scan the text, since typos can easily add more confusion, or take away the scholarly appearance from the presentation.) Okay, that said, the work is really masterfully done, so nothing takes that away for knowledgeable people. It is huge and links to it should be sent to the SP etc.,

       Enough! Do I understand that GZ first appears coming down RVC west?

       Because, if he came that way and really saw TM in the cut through, then he’d know not to expect TM over by the mailboxes real soon. And that would mean he spent the 10 or so minutes TM sheltered at the mailboxes, making the NEN call??? Somethings a little screwy.

235. I think most of us know this already, but just for anyone who isn’t aware – Tomorrow’s hearing has been pushed back until the beginning of October.

     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-07/news/os-george-zimmerman-continuance-20120807_1_george-zimmerman-mark-o-mara-million-bond-order

     Hope we’ll get some more evidence at least in the meantime.

     • I’ll take this to mean that money isn’t coming in as fast as hoped for, and more time is needed to give MOM a chance at a pay day.

236. In GZ’s NE call, is the ring at the end (when the dispatcher says “you’re welcome”) on the dispatcher’s end of the call?

     • Good question. 4:04 mark of this version:

       For what it’s worth, this is the only version of Zimmerman’s call to police that I use/cite on BccList.

       • Yup, 4:04-4:05; this was the version I used as well. Thanks for posting it! I apologize for not putting the link in myself.

       • “For what it’s worth, this is the only version of Zimmerman’s call to police that I use/cite on BccList.”

         Now that makes me feel really hurt, NLME. Why *crying crocodile tears* why have you rejected my time-stamped copy of the call? I really, really do think it’s easier and more productive to refer to events in the call by the clock-time at which they occured, not the running time into a YT video.

         • I’ll look for your version when I get on my home PC again! This one is favorited in my YouTube app for quick reference. 🙂

     • QETNO!!!

       I’m thinking you’ve read my mind. I some times forget to post the crazy stuff on my mind or questions I may have. Good to see you’re on it! Truly I appreciate your questions and questioning. Seriously i feel this way.

       My take on the ringing is that its inside of SPD. It sounded like a ringing inside the call center or SPD to me. Don’t know why I think this. No logic. No basis for my thoughts that I can put my finger on. Just don’t think Trayvon Martin would have a ring-tone like what’s heard as the ringing at the end of the NEN call. My experience is that teens like their downloaded music ringers.

       • It was something I meant to post a while back, too, but also forgot about. I’m apparently completely f’n awful and fail at making out some of the words/phrases in the NE call, but I knew I was hearing a ring, LOL. I’m just glad others hear it otherwise I’d have to promptly make an audiologist appointment! Anyway, I agree it is likely on the dispatcher’s end; while I have a standard ringtone like the one heard, it does sound like a ring that would be heard in a call center, too. Interesting no other rings seem to happen during the call, but I doubt if we’d hear them considering GZ and the dispatcher talking during most of the call. I figured no harm in asking even if it isn’t “real evidence.”

         Also, thank you. It means a lot that even one person appreciates anything I post. Most of the time I groan as I hit “post comment” worrying that I’m just cluttering the comments with garbage.

237. Just an aside: It occurs to me that GZ, leaving his house on a regularly scheduled, weekly family shopping trip, SZ should have been along with him. He needs to explain why he decided to go do the family shopping alone.

     Then there’s an idea that perhaps, upon notice, he simply raced to his truck and sped east on RVC to the back gate first, to cut off any possible escape route. Then, on his way back, he could easily see up RVC east, then up the walkway, and then go drive up TTL, secure in the knowledge that he had the suspect boxed. So, from there he patrols the clubhouse/mailbox area, perhaps even shining his head lights or flashlight on TM at the mailboxes.

     After all, he could see that it was raining, so he could easily guess that the suspect was sheltering somewhere from the rain.

     • FWIW: I do all the grocery shopping for my wife and I — she hates shopping (for necessities).

       • Stealing a line from you – I laughed. 🙂 Shopping for necessities takes all the fun out of shopping/spending. Although, I do like grocery shopping, but probably because I like to cook and I’m sure I’d go nuts if someone else was picking out the ingredients that *I* would be cooking with.

         • Ditto!

       • Ha! “necessities” is a subjective notion/motive for shopping. I hate shopping, too, now that every franchise (walmart, target, bed bath and beyond, best buy, crate and barrell, etc.) uses the same model for buying cheap imports. It’s just not fun to buy anything any more — to me anyways.

       • I’m sure lots of men do, but that doesn’t negate the fact that GZ claims this was the routine family shopping trip. When money is tight, my guess is, they’d both want to be there to decide what gets picked and what does not. Surely you are familiar with the idea, that you’d rather miss an entire meal, than forgo your favorite brand of whatever. Nor are these kinds of fetishes things you’d like to advertise, so you’ll feel compelled to go along, to be sure that your favorite coffee doesn’t get replaced with brand “b”.

         Besides, your wife is right; it takes a certain amount of frivolity to make a house a home and a family a life.

         • Re: shopping at Target. I went back and listened to Sean Hannity’s interview with GZ. In the first minute of the interview (I’ll spare you guys and not post the link), GZ says “I was going to Target to do my weekly grocery shopping. Um, Sunday nights was the only nights…well, Sundays after we mentored the kids, we would always go grocery shopping, do our cooking for the week. Um, I wanted to go to Target, I headed out, and that’s the last time I’ve been home.” So normally they both go but for some unknown reason that night, he claims to have gone alone? Possible, but……I have mentioned this before, remember in the re-enactment, GZ slips and says “my wife….I was going shopping”. Was thinking again about the “key” and not “keys” that he had on him. Since people rarely only have a car key and not the house key, it’s highly possible they were both going out, they spot TM close to Taaffe’s or at the clubhouse. GZ does a quick U-turn and drops Shellie off at home with the house key, and he continues back out to find TM again. Shellie may have needed the house key because she wouldn’t have grabbed her own keys if GZ was driving.

           • Or… He could have let her walk home, since they weren’t that far. After all, after he spotted TM, he wouldn’t want to let him get out of sight.

             But, more likely he never left home with her at all. While preparing to leave home on the shopping trip, he gets notice that a suspect is moving around, so he simply tells Shelly he’ll be right back. Then uses the shopping trip as an excuse to replace patrolling. So, I wonder what Shellie has to say about his shopping trip? Or did he get to her before she was questioned? And/or what did the Osterman Resource know of the shopping trip? A whole lot of questions could have been answered if he and Shellie didn’t remove the truck from the scene. Perhaps they will be squeezed for more info?

           • Totally invented, no evidence: my thought was MO is taking cash from an ATM, MO is good friend, MO goes to GZ’s house, GZ is going on usual important shopping trip, GZ in debt and cards maxed out……….there is a connection here.

             Can’t be GZ and SZ in the car, leaving friend and helper by himself. Especially friend and helper who was only person in all of Florida that we know of, who had opportunity to observe a “suspicious goon” heading thataway.

             Re keys – if the car was equipped with automatic garage opener, there’s no need for a house key, as you drive in the garage and enter the house through the internal door. In that sort of setup, someone who always drives everywhere may only use his house keys when he locks up for his annual vacation. Or may have a loose ringless house key in his wallet, for emergencies. The car key, especially with a torch attached, gets dumped on a hall table or kitchen counter after every use.

             • @ Aussie, there are so many scenarios regarding what went on before GZ headed out, we don’t know much of anything concrete at this point.
               FYI, Go to NLME’s home page. There are a couple of new threads since you’ve been not commenting and the new evidence is being discussed there.

238. Witness 2 text transcripts are ready for you.

     Witness2serino1march2012
     http://kiwi6.com/file/l90078ds83

     Witness2serino9march2012
     http://kiwi6.com/file/aky21qi71s

     Witness2batchelor20march2012
     http://kiwi6.com/file/zzxu9shkf8

     • @Screamin’ Jay

       Thanks for providing the links and for all your hard work!

     • Holy crap…Nice work! I must have missed something — I didn’t know you were transcribing the witness statements. Thank you!

     • This is a really great work. SJ

       Thanks again

     • woohoo! Thanks!

     • Great Work !!!

       Thanks for providing links, so I can keep updated.

239. @No Longer Mass Emailing… Says:

     August 8, 2012 at 4:40 am

     “The answer is no. The act was assault. Hence, we’re now hearing from Zimmerman that Trayvon skipped away (though he already stated twice in his call to police that the teen ran away and he was in pursuit).”

     GZ is a fool. Here he’s trying to say that TM was unimpressed by the gravity of the situation, such that he could be playful about it.

     Okay George, have it your way, you hunted down a playful child and killed him, without him ever realizing how serious you were. Now, pray tell us, where does this horrible thug persona come into play? Did you shoot him for playing patty cake with your face?

     “The hardened gun toting criminal thug was skipping away!” Yeah, a jury is really gonna wanna hear that! GZ is so stupid it hurts!

240. Hi all. I don’t post often, but I follow you faithfully. I bow down to all of
     the work that everyone has done on this case and now hope you will give me your
     thoughts on this – I have always said that GZ had to have had his gun at the
     ready when he confronted Trayvon. Now this video has come out, and I am
     apparently not the only one who believes this. Please listen to this video
     starting at about 6:14 and tell me what you think. TIA

     Natalie Jackson‏@NatJackEsq
     You Got A Problem Homie?: http://youtu.be/gVUqY3tyttc via @youtube

     AND, here is another guy comparing these two:

     (I am reposting this comment at the request of NLME)

241. =========MORE EVIDENCE RELEASED ==========
     some of it by mistake

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/09/george-zimmerman-evidence_n_1762383.html

     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-new-evidence-20120809_1_trayvon-martin-death-of-unarmed-teenager-george-zimmerman-case

     It includes/d Jon W13’s other 2 photos, the small flashlight, and the body+big flashlight. I’ve not been able to find them posted anywhere.

     Click to access Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

     ==================
     Sybrina Fulton taking HOA to court
     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-06/news/os-trayvon-martin-insurance-claim-20120806_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman

242. hey NLME have you gone back to moderating again?

     Or is just because my browser crashed so WP doesn’t know I’ve been here before?

243. It includes/d Jon W13′s other 2 photos, the small flashlight, and the body+big flashlight. I’ve not been able to find them posted anywhere.

     Click to access Zimmerman-new-discovery.pdf

     ==================
     Sybrina Fulton taking HOA to court
     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-06/news/os-trayvon-martin-insurance-claim-20120806_1_sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman

     • I’ve spent the last couple weeks playing “catch up” on this blog. I was actively following the one on the maps but then this one came up…. I don’t post much since I only have access while I’m at work and it usually causes my phone to crash…

       But things I’ve been wanting to add in (I made a few posts on the last blog but I never know where to chime in since everything moves so fast) –

       1) In regards to – witness testimony I don’t think people can say DeeDee’s testimony doesnt matter because she, like the other witnesses, HEARD the events. Most of the witnesses living in the community didn’t see much. So to say you can’t take in her testimony is ubsurd. What she heard is just as critical as what any other witnesses heard.

       2) One thing I noticed in reading statements and looking at maps, Zimmerman makes reference to TM circling his car as an act of intimidation and that TM was staring at him…. There were no sidewalks. I’m in my mid 20s and I don’t recall many teenage boys, or many adult men for that matter, that would trapse through grass and mud in the rain when they could just as easily walk in the street with there being no traffic…. So maybe what George claimed was him circling the car was just TM taking a firmer path rather than the muddy one.

       3) I’m a victim of an attempted rape so I know what it feels like to preyed on. Think of how you would feel as a kid walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighborhood. I still get a little paranoid as an adult. If I think I see someone in a car I definitely pick up the pace and as soon as I think I’m far enough away so they don’t realize I’m evading them I high tail it outta there… Probably what TM was doing. Caught a glimpse of what might be a man in the car, realized through the tinted windows it was and he was looking back at him, picked up the pace a bit to create a gap and as soon as he thought he was away he ran.

       4) Can someone send a message to Angela Coreys office and request that she leak the phone records next time? (I just wanted to add that in)

       5) From an article I read this morning MOM released a statement saying that there is no money left for the legal defense. Hmmmm so all that money that was being donated to the legal defense wasnt even being set aside for the defense. *shocker*…. Everything was used for George and the bond.

       6) With Georges parents setting up their own site I’m pretty sure that is GZs way of getting money that can’t be tracked. IMO-if it goes to George’s website then it can be legally tracked and monitored as to how much and what it was used for. If it goes to the dad, there isn’t as much the attorney’s or judge can do to track it or control it. So what’s to say this isn’t part of the families plan. “Dad you set up the account, say it’s for you and mom and we split it”… What’s to say George didn’t set up the site himself and that is yet another one he is controlling.

       7) I have a ton more to add now that I’m caught up but I will save it for tomorrow. Thank you all for the wonderful work you do in analyzing and investigating. I’m signing off for the day until I have more time to go in depth now that I’m all caught up on reading everyone’s posts.

       ****I posted this yesterday but for some reason it placed my comment as a response to something from July 23. So I’m reposting in hopes that it places it correctly. I’d also like to add

       8) I haven’t seen GZ with much security except MO so how did he spend $50k+ on security? Especially if he doesnt go anywhere. If you ask me I think he LISTED it as security in order to get MOM to release the funds to him, paid MO a small sum for “security” (really just buying companionship because lets face it – GZ doesnt have any real friends) and then pocketed most of that money. There’s no way in heck he’s spent that much already on secirity that he hasnt even been seen with…. I could also see him held up in a house, with the blinds closed, in the dark, in his wife’s bathrobe, with spaghetti-o stains down the front (which he’s eaten directly out of the can), 3 cases of YooHoo, and surrounded by guns and boxes and boxes of amunition because I’m sure the paranoia has set in.

       • Here is the thing about that testimony that makes it extremely convincing. We had heard GZs version of events first, from his dad and brother. When we heard DD’s story, it didn’t make any sense! Why? because “Hes being chased, hes being chased again, hes being chased again. ” So much chasing, we initially thought she must have been confused. Then when we heard more of the story, it finally made sense. She couldn’t have made any of that up. If made up, she would have had a snowball’s chance in hell, of her story fitting the actual details that were uncovered.

244. From today’s SAO ‘mistaken” release and re-release of evidence to media:The Orlando Sentinel is not publishing the photo of the teen’s body after he was shot by Zimmerman in Sanford on Feb. 26.

     Among the new information revealed: Authorities found the teen’s blood on the bag of Skittles he had in his pocket.
     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-08-09/news/os-george-zimmerman-new-evidence-20120809_1_trayvon-martin-death-of-unarmed-teenager-george-zimmerman-case

     • @BGESQ, the new evidence is being discussed on a newer thread. Check out NLME’s home page.

       • thank you- what is link- i’ve ben using emails, not blog- thanks again!

         • Blog homepage:
           https://bcclist.com/

           SYG and new accidentally released evidence here

           Stand Your Ground Hearing for George Zimmerman?

           Other thread about miami herald article.
           https://bcclist.com/2012/08/04/bcclist-com-mentioned-in-the-miami-herald-17/

245. I have always thought George was cocking his gun, I am sure this will be brought up at trial. What do you think?

     • Thank You Ms. Nila for posting this video!!!

     • The Kel-Tec PF9 is a double-action-only (DAO) semi-automatic pistol. There is no “cocking” to be done manually. As one pulls the trigger, about halfway into the pull the gun cocks, then fires at the end of the trigger pull.

       To prepare this weapon for use, you would pop out the magazine, release the slide, and visually verify that you do not have a round chambered up (or remove it if there is one).

       The loaded magazine is then inserted into the butt of the handgrip, and that needs a slap or a little force to make sure it’s seated firmly. This makes a noise.

       Once this is done, you pull back on the slide and let it snap closed. The slide grabs the first bullet out of the magazine and loads it into firing position. Releasing the slide also makes a noise.

       I’ve never noticed the sound of a 9mm DAO pistol cocking, because I’m busy aiming and it takes such a tiny time to pull the trigger and fire, any cocking sound gets lost in the shot itself.

       • Thank you, gunnora! Just posted questions on NLME’s latest blog about what other noises this noise heard could be attributed to. I had also read previously that it can’t be a cocking noise because no cocking required. Do you know of sites that have videos that we could look at to demonstrate some of the noises?

         I had seen the first video before, but not the second. The first video defies what I’ve read before, but that noise is what convinced me that Zimmerman probably was doing something to his gun before the confrontation. The second video doesn’t sound so much like what we heard on the NEN call.

         Puzzled here, to say the least.

246. Finally someone has done it. At that moment before he said his last name I have said that is HIS gun being chambered. Now if I can get this person to clear up what he said after that would be awesome. Not his stupid flashlight either.

     • Re: chambering pistol

       I truly believe that sound that is heard is GZ “cocking” his gun despite speculation that chambering this “kel-tec” (sp?) wasn’t necessary. However, we do know George owned more than one gun because one of the witnesses asked him which one did he use to kill TM. Is it at all plausible that GZ had two guns that night and decided to only carry one on his hunt? Would this other gun make that noise? Would this be why GZ wanted that cat out of there so fast? Just pure speculation on my part. Feel free to rip it to shreds 🙂

       Thanks all! I enjoy reading here even if I don’t comment much. You guys keep me in the “know”!

       • I am not speculating. I am telling you. The Kel-Tec used by Zimmerman is is a semi-automatic, locked breech pistol, its firing mechanism is Double-Action Only (DAO) with an automatic hammer block safety.

         When you load a semi-automatic pistol, the first round is manually loaded into the chamber by racking the slide, i.e., pulling back and releasing the slide mechanism. This makes a noise.

         As you shoot any semi-automatic pistol, the gun utilizes the recoil. The slide has little “nubs” on it that grab the spent brass and ejects it, and then on the way back, the slide grabs the next bullet from the magazine and chambers it.

         The Kel-Tec is ALSO a Double-Action Only (DAO) weapon. This means that once you’ve got a round chambered, each trigger pull will cock the hammer, then it will release the firing mechanism in one continuous motion.

         Here is an excellent slow-motion video of the Kel-Tec PF9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqp4pQM-jw

         At the very start of the video, the shooter racks the slide to chamber up his first bullet. As he releases the slide, the visible bullet in the magazine is tilted upward and moved forward into the firing chamber.

         As he pulls the trigger, watch the back of the gun: you will see the hammer being cocked, then released as the trigger pull continues.

         As the shot is fired, the slide is thrust back by the recoil and the spent brass is ejected. The slide goes all the way back, then moves forward again, grabbing the next bullet from the magazine.

         When the magazine is empty, the slide locks back.

         This is not rocket science. Guns are amazingly simple mechanisms.

         • Thanks! So it’s safe to assume that the noise we hear is not GZ doing exactly what is shown on the first few seconds on the video you referenced because that would require him to go back and insert the extra bullet (which would make the gun filled to capacity?)?

           Btw, I wasn’t suggesting you were the one speculating.. But thanks for telling me.

           • I believe you are not understanding what I am telling you. The sound may in fact be the Kel-Tec being racked, but it ain’t being “cocked”. These are very different actions and mechanisms within the gun.

             Cocking is SPECIFICALLY when you pull the firing mechanism back. In the old Westerns, you see people doing this with revolvers. You don’t cock a DAO semi-auti pistol.

             • @ gunnora.. Thank you.. Much appreciated.

           • Thank you, gunnora!

             Going to list to the vid.

         • @gunnora

           What ever it is called when preparing that GUN, I believe that is exactly what GZ was doing. I think this is going to be the clincher in the case and I am sure experts will testify and will have audio forensics as well. Even before all this noise business I have always felt that GZ had that gun out when he and TM met up and that is what set TM off, he was in fear of his life. Although I do understand what you are saying and appreciate your expertise, “COCKING/LOADING” what ever it is called GZ was doing it right at that moment and within minutes TM was dead!

           • When following someone you believe is armed, into a dark place, the time to prepare for an attack is before it happens not after. Unless GZ has some sort of death wish.

             GZ has already claimed that he had good reason to believe that TM was an armed and dangerous criminal. He also adds that he was in fear of him!
             Thus, when he leaves his truck and goes across to the walkway, shouldn’t he be prepared to be surprised by a deadly attacker? Yet, he gives us no reason for why his fears should have abated, such that he didn’t need to draw his weapon, and be prepared to defend his own life, from an armed and dangerous “goon”. (for those of you who have not done so yet, google “Sanford Florida gang goons” and have a good look at who he was claiming to have thought TM was. They present as very well armed and very, very dangerous people. I doubt many here would have the courage to follow one of them without cause. I doubt anyone would follow one without a weapon already drawn. You easily get the feeling that you’re not going to be talking with them.

           • As a gun-owner, I don’t think GZ would have waited to rack the weapon until he was out of the truck wandering around.

             People who have concealed carry permits carry because they believe — at some level of their mind — that someday, someone will jump them, and they’ll need to whip the gun out to save lives. A concealed weapon, therefore, is always going to be loaded, because a hypothetical mugger isn’t going to stand there while you pull your hypothetical gun, find your hypothetical magazine, and rack the hypothetical slide.

             I personally do not like to carry any firearm that has a bullet chambered, but the Kel-Tec is not only DAO, it has an automatic hammer block safety. In theory, you could drop the gun, even with a bullet chambered, and be reasonably confident that it would not accidentally fire.

             I think that when GZ put on the holster, he loaded his gun, racked it, then holstered it. From the way he’s acted all along. he needed that gun to feel big and powerful. He wanted his penis…. er I mean weapon…. loaded and ready to be Vigilante Man.

             I agree with the people who think the sound is his flashlight. GZ came out of his house loaded and ready for trouble.

             • Not sure if this is the right place to post. IIRC, you wanted to know which ammo was used. I found this from discovery dump 1 page 66 of 183.
               1 cartridge case with head stamp 9mm Luger S&B. The conversation was something about bystanders vs internally damage or something to that effect. Can you expand on your anaylsis regarding this size bullet.
               Thanks
               L

             • That’s a bullet made by the Czech firm Sellier & Bellot: http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/pistol-and-revolver-detail.php?ammunition=9&product=69

               The S&B 9mm Luger ammo is your cheap-ass bargain-basement bullet. I’ve heard reports that say that it has frequent feeding failures. That would make this an economical ammo for practicing with the gun (where you might want to shoot 100 rounds), but in wouldn’t be my pick for loading for actual carry (there I’d go Hornady or Glazer).

               This ammo matches GZ’s choice of a really cheap pistol, and I’m willing to guess that he made his ammo choice here based entirely on price, not use.

               You can see graphically what the S&B 9mm bullet does inside a body here (they test fire into a stack of bars of soap): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVqRErotWDE

             • @Gunnora,
               Thank you so much for the information. I agree based on the cheap gun, cheap bullets, that he was looking for a good price not use. Even his friend MO said he was frugal. It fits.
               Thanks again
               Loree

             • Yeah, where “frugal” equals broke and over extended.

             • EXACTLY!
               I have heard that is the new thing to do, go back to school and get those grants. They send you a check every so often and people actually live off those checks. I don’t know how its done, but considering how high the college debt is right now is, it could be another way of scamming the goverment out of money

         • Shit I had to write this….Okie dokie guns guns guns guns……the round is automatically chambered bullshit. I am not posting facts and citing where they came from because well…..why break from some peoples norm. A “CCW” permit is… operative word…..concealed! A chambered round in your weapon is……operative word…..illegal. Whew I feel better.
           Law: the Prosecution and Defense perform reciprocal discovery. The Prosecution must give any exculpatory evidence. Unlike the defense having inculpatory evidence. Idiotic. But here is the lie O’Mara has everything the Prosecutors have against GZ.
           What trials have historically taken place after a:
           1. Murder; where the defendant has confessed, and has yet to plead not guilty after 7 months.
           2. Continues to confess with multiple versions of said confession on the record, goes on to television and confesses over and over again each time modifying confession to fit into what he has learned in the court of public opinion for 7 months?
           3. What lawyer who has not been disbarred would allow and encourage this??
           4. Have we ever seen an accused murderer set up websites to solicit money? And then call it gifts?
           I am now at a full rant, just like GZ was at a full run but my intentions here are pure. Sorry NLME, it just stuck in my craw!!

           • It is not illegal to carry a gun with a bullet under the hammer. It can be really stupid, but it is not illegal. On a double-action-only pistol, in theory, the chambered round cannot be accidentally fired, so there would be no reason to make it illegal. A DAO releases it’s built in hammer block on the trigger pull.

             • @gunnora, hi! I just asked the question below on the newest thread, but saw your post here and popped over here cuz I thought you should know. Is it illegal to carry a gun in your pocket? That is it’s still concealed right? Or are there laws saying that a man should carry it in a waistband or gun belt? Off topic, but are women allowed to carry guns in their handbags? The question spun off of a discussion about where GZ might have actually had his gun when he got out of the truck, either pocket or waistband and does this make a difference, legally? Thanks.

             • If you have a valid concealed carry permit for the state in which you will be carrying the weapon, you may carry it any way you want to so long as it is not visible. If your weapon is visible, that’s called “brandishing” and is usually against the law. DO check your own state laws in regards to what restrictions on concealed carry may exist. The Florida law in regards to brandishing is here: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.10.html

               In addition, Florida law does not make any specific provision about how one may or may not carry concealed (neither does Texas, where I live). The Florida CCW law is available here: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

               The Kel-Tec 9mm was SPECIFICALLY designed for concealed carry and pockets were one of the places the manufacturer had in mind. I personally wouldn’t carry in a pocket due to pocket lint if nothing else, and the difficulty in getting it OUT of the pocket. There are companies that make pants and other garments that specifically are designed to allow a concealed gun carry.. For example: http://www.woolrich.com/elite-tactical/concealed-carry.shtml

               Concealed carry holsters come in all sorts of varieties.

               There are inside the waistband and outside the waistband, both of which leave the handle above the waist of your pants, and you are expected to wear a jacket or long shirt or some such over that to carry concealed. You have to wear a belt to give a decent mount for the holster clip. Most waist holsters are set either for a front cross-draw or worn at the small of the back. For women, waist carry depends on the shape of your waist and hips, and we have a shorter distance between ribs and hips, which can make a waist holster really uncomfortable. I can carry at the small of my back without gouging of my tender self, but not so much for a front carry. Some examples: http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/ccw/IWB.html

               Concealed carry can use a shoulder holster, which is my personal preference if I feel I need to carry, because it’s usually the fastest draw for me and most comfortable with a properly fitted shoulder harness. You wear a shirt or a jacket to cover the gun, and generally keep a button or two fastened or a zip partway up so the jacket doesn’t flap and show the gun. Women have a special consideration on a shoulder holster because if you don’t get it set right, you are going to gouge your breast as you draw. A shoulder holster also requires a belt, because it will attach to the belt to help keep the gun from flopping around. Examples: http://www.kirkpatrickleather.com/shoulder

               I’ve seen a couple of varieties of bra holsters that I find fairly impractical. These clip to the center of the bra and hold the gun under a breast, so you have to reach up under your shirt to draw. For example, see http://www.armedinheels.com/ultimate-concealed-carry-flashbang-holster-p-1828.html You need to have sufficient cup size to provide cover for the gun, and you have to be wearing a blouse that is not too clingy a fabric or too transparent, so a sweatshirt works, but most date wear not so much. There are also bra holsters that clip to the side of a bra but they’re significantly worse than a shoulder rig, and can you say CHAFING!?? For example http://www.looperlawenforcement.com/marilyn-holster.html

               There are also belly bands, which is like a concealed belt you wear under a shirt that has a pouch or pocket for a gun. You could wear a belly band under jogging shorts, or even under a dress. If under a dress, you are likely going to have everyone see your panties if you have to draw. For example: http://www.theconcealmentshop.com/concealmentbelts.php

               There are thigh holsters, but I have never seen one that stays put without ending all blood circulation to that leg. And wearing one makes you waddle like a duck in a wet diaper. For example: http://www.holsters4guns.com/holsters/product/TBBK.html

               There are ankle holsters, and boot top holsters – these I dislike because you have to get your pants leg jerked up to draw. For example: http://www.desantisholster.com/store/SEARCH-BY-HOLSTER-OR-ACCESSORY/ANKLE-HOLSTERS

               Women may indeed carry in a purse. But if you do, it will take approximately 45 minutes to FIND the gun in the average woman’s purse, never mind draw and shoot it. There are purses designed with a sort of outer pocket that a gun can go in, but what do you do if your purse is snatched? Some examples: http://www.guntotenmamas.com/

             • There are so many inconsistencies in GZ’s stories that we’ve devolved to taking him at his word on most everything else. While it makes good sense that GZ would have drawn his gun at some early point, we have no evidence that he did. So why bother? When it should be enough to know that, after being attacked and beaten near to death at the tee, he doesn’t fire his weapon there, but he does say that he drew it and fired it there.

               If the fight he claims to have happened at the tee, then we can believe that he drew his weapon there. But, since there’s no evidence that he fired it there, but instead moved 40 plus feet towards TM’s house before firing. That move has nothing to it to show that it was an involuntary movement. Meaning that, he wasn’t killed by the initial assault, but he went on to seek revenge, instead of going away.

               You see in the reenactment how he goes silent, realizing that the involuntary part of his narrative has ended without any evidence of a shot being fired on it’s account. He was hoping he would not be called upon to explain how he voluntarily traveled to another location. One that would be along the exact path TM would flee, if he knew his pursuer had a firearm.

               This is why GZ cannot take the stand, because he will have to show how that 40.5 foot trip from the tee was involuntary on his part. Because, by the time he makes this trip, he has stated that both parties knew he was armed and that he had complete control of the weapon. The jury will be extremely interested in hearing that part of the story.

             • Amen to that Lonnie,I am in hopes that the jury takes it all in.

             • I think the SP will use just enough of the evidence to fashion a good partial story that indicates the truth and leaves out the falsehoods that GZ is trying to claim happened, that are self serving to himself.

               For instance, without explaining why, the SP will begin with GZ picking TM up while he’s sheltering by the mailboxes. Then have GZ get out and give chase soon after TM runs. Which looks very bad for GZ, especially when the SP claims that GZ went north on TTL, instead of across the walkway to RVC east. Then cornered TM by coming around behind him and chasing him south. Then catching him and shooting him there.

               The witnesses statements are so inconclusive, MOM cannot hope to use them to create doubt, in fact, the SP will have him locked in at every turn, because witnesses either don’t see enough to exculpate GZ, or they simply can’t be sure. While the concrete isn’t there where witnesses can see any head bashing, because everything they saw happened on the grass.

               It will be left to MOM to open doors, to try to create impressions that things happened down at the tee. He has no choice but to try, because that’s where GZ claims he shot TM. See the dilemma MOM faces? He can’t bring things back to the tee, because no shot was fired there! He can’t claim life threatening assault at the final location, because the witnesses put them both on the grass. GZ is left claiming that he shot TM because TM was covering his mouth and his nose. Not very life threatening eh? Nor can GZ pull that stuff about TM going for his gun, since he’s the one who brought the gun there. Worse yet, he’s being smothered while screaming for help and drawing his weapon???

               Anyway, unless GZ takes the stand, whatever story the SP puts on, is going to be almost impossible for MOM to controvert without GZ getting up to testify. But, if GZ get’s on the stand to try to make some defense, then he’s going to get hit with his very own claims, like they were several tons of bricks.

               All the defense can do from here on in, is sweat and hope that money keeps coming in. After all, win lose or draw, this case has nothing to do with MOM’s skills, either he has a good case or he doesn’t! In this case he doesn’t have a good case, and that’s nobodies fault but GZ!

             • Gee wordpress is going absolutely crazy, it keeps changing my display name to obwon, which I use on political sites. Oh well.

       • He was not asked which gun he used, he was asked what kind of ammunition he used by someone who did not know him or know whether he had more than one gun or not.

         unitron

         • Wow.. Thanks! I do know that my comments are not as knowledgeable and cite worthy as others. I also know that I haven’t invested as much time as most of the others here so I appreciate the corrections in what I put in my questions as far as (speculation vs knowledge or type or gun vs type of ammo). I apologize if I haven’t framed questions in a way that an expert could reasonably answer them. I will definitely put more thought and research into how frame my next question before I ask it. Until then, I’ll go back to just reading what others post. Again, I enjoy reading here and what to thank you all for your wonderful insights and hard work.

           Signed,

           MsUnderstood (literally) 🙂

           • In this case I don’t think you were misunderstood so much as you were misunderstanding.

             regards,
             unitron

             • If I was asking whether or not GZ was asked which gun he was using (which I wasn’t) I can see how I would be misunderstanding. Clearly, that wasn’t my question. I stated that GZ was asked which gun he used ( which I was corrected about and I understand that) but my original question wasn’t answered (no matter how dumb it was) and I only received corrections to my own statement. I know I said rip it to shreds, but was only referring to the two gun hypothesis. I will keep my comments and questions to myself in the future and thanks again for the clarification.

             • “Is it at all plausible that GZ had two guns that night and decided to only carry one on his hunt?”

               Possible, yes, and I suppose he could have left the other one in the truck.

               “Would this other gun make that noise?”

               Depending on what type of gun it was, assuming that it existed, maybe.

               I’m not sure why he’d be getting a different one ready to fire and then leave it behind.

               “Would this be why GZ wanted that cat out of there so fast?”

               By cat, do you mean Mark Osterman?

               unitron

             • @unitron: thanks…

               And that was a typo I actually meant “car”.. And i probably shouldve said Honda Ridgeline. But thanks, again.

             • I’m inclined to think that this wannabee LEO, would fancy himself as a “knowledgable” or experienced cop. To that end, he would probably think of having a back up gun, or maybe the Osterman Resource told him this is what undercover police do, in case things get sticky. Just as someone told him to use hollow point rounds, because that makes ballistics all but impossible to do, because they fragment.

               So, in case some do-gooder comes to TM’s rescue, he has a back up to fire and throw away, as in pretend someone else fired that weapon. When things go as planned then, he needs to get rid of the back up weapon, because it shows he came with plans and prepared for a shooting.

               If the back up gun uses different ammo, he might have left some in the truck. Maybe he left it’s holster in the truck?

               In any event it would go down something like: Throw the second gun on the ground, far enough so that it won’t be seen by other witnesses, but close enough so that he could keep an eye on it. Then “my gun is on the ground” becomes a cue to a cohort to pick it up and take it away. Such a person would be adamantly in GZ’s corner, no matter what the evidence showed.
               Because anything else may expose him or her as an accessory.

               A very good way for the cohort to check that he has the right gun, would be to ask about the weapon and ammo used. So, maybe that odd sounding conversation, wasn’t as idle as it sounded, eh? After all, the police would not be searching the houses of the witnesses at the scene.

               I always thought that after he says his gun is on the ground, it was strange that no one saw him pick it up and put it back in the holster. Especially since he’d have to do a bit of wrestling with his shirt and jacket to get at the holster.

               So, maybe you guys who are more deeply into this, could do a closer inspection of this area of the case?

             • If there were two guns, that would explain a lot. That would explain how the gun was both “on the ground” and “in the holster.” It would explain the question. It would suggest another person on site manipulating the crime scene… (white shirt?). We have heard an allusion that someone else touched the body. We have no explanation for how someone gets shot in the heart with a hollow point bullet, moves aside and is still talking. We have no explanation for how the arms go from “running man”, to GZ holding the arms out and searching the hands, to being both under the body.

               The .40 is over 10mm; not the nicest fit. WIth a gun you would think the focus would be precision, so we need a good answer on if you could interchange 9mm and .40 or if it requires a specific barrel or gun.

               http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_16/104694_9mm_Mandamp_P_barrel_in_a__40_Sandamp_W_a_photo_comparison_UPDATE_IN_OP_Range_test.html

               here is the history of this particular bullet and the grains of power, and why it was preferred, because of the velocity
               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.40_S%26W

             • There is a potential source for misunderstanding here. The 9mm and .40 caliber bullet, I suspect are usable in the same gun. In other words, it would not require different guns to ask that question. Can someone verify this? Is this, therefore, a common question when chatting about a handgun?

               I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why someone would ask about the caliber of the bullet. It is grotesquely insensitive question, in context.

               The asker was presumed to be Jonathan Manolo. Maybe it suggests that witnesses believed GZ, based on the race of the deceased, from moment one.

             • If he asked something like “Did you use a forty cal or a nine?” he’s talking about ammo size, but he’s really asking what kind of gun. Sort of. The question doesn’t settle the question of whether revolver or automatic, and I don’t know how good a look at the gun he got, or how much he knows about guns himself.

               He knew Zimmerman had “a” gun because he heard a gunshot (and I think Zimmerman said something to him about having to shoot in self-defense).

               I don’t think anything about his question should be inferred to have implied Zimmerman having more than one gun with or near him that night.

               As far as I know his carry permit would have allowed him to have another one locked in the glove box, but I’m not an expert of the gun laws of that or any other state.

               unitron

             • These are not interchangeable loads. A .40 caliber bullet is a bigger, wider bullet than a 9mm Parabellum, and won’t even fit in a 9mm gun. Remember that a .40 caliber is .400 inches, while a 9mm is .354 inches, and that matters.

               The .40 has a huge energy advantage vs. a 9mm; the .40 has about a 30% greater cartridge case capacity and therefore holds more gunpowder. The average .40 can be loaded with 155gr, 165gr, or 180gr. A 9mm load usually runs from 115gr to 147gr.

               A .40 gun probably CAN shoot a 9mm, but is likely to hangfire. You use only the ammo that your specific firearm was designed to use.

             • Gunnora, can you give an opinion on how common a question that is? Is it like a fisherman asking another how many “pound test” his fishing line is? Is that a common question for an unidentified handgun?

               Maybe TM was convulsing and GZ searched him all over, and left the body rolled to the side, as it looks in the corpse photo. It seems that “face down” really might mean “on the side, with the face more towards the ground.” Or if he was rolled all the way over, it would be to check his back pockets.

               I am still thinking, GZ came up on TM from the south, GZ was somehow detaining TM, and taking him back to GZ’s make believe squad car, and when GZ got to the lights, he went to call the cops; TM at this opportunity hits him in the face to break free. GZ chases him again south, they roll in the ground and he puls the gun and shoots TM.

               That explanation fits his bouncer experience, the admitted details of his story, like “I went to use my phone and he hit me.” It explains the evidence dispersion, last known intents of both parties, why TM would have hit him, a single time – to get away.

             • If you are familiar with guns, you can tell by looking at the frame and barrel about what caliber it must be. A .22 looks a lot smaller than a .38 and so on. Also, certain brands are associated with certain calibers, so if I see a Sig, I am going to suspect 9mm (that being the most common type of Sig).

               .40 tends to be used more by LEOs, 9mm is the official bullet of NATO. Our military uses both calibers, depending on what service and which unit you’re discussing.

           • Please feel free to comment whenever you’d like without hesitation/l or “research.” 🙂

             • Thanks NLME.. I appreciate that very much! 🙂

             • I’m no fan of any “two gun” theory, at least not yet. But it does seem strange that, after dropping his gun on the ground, he’d pick it back up and holster it.
               Of course, there’s no reason he’d carry two guns, unless he’s been watching too much police tee vee, where the hero always has a backup, or the rogue cop has a throw-away. Then, he’d certainly want to get that second gun out of there quick, and his strange remark about a gun on the ground, would do that job nicely. But, it only works if his cohort(s) aren’t found.

         • He was not asked which gun he used, he was asked what kind of ammunition he used by someone who did not know him or know whether he had more than one gun or not.

           unitron

           ******
           I thought I was done then I saw your next reasoning. I think I can speak for the majority when I say: I hear screaming ending in a gunshot in my backyard….my response would NOT BE to grab a flashlight/phone and set off in the direction of this come upon dead teenager guy who shot dead teenager and ask did you use a 9mm or 40 cal? Ammunition or gun that’s a freaking crazy analogy!
           I WOULD HIT THE DECK AND CRAWL ON MY BELLY FOR THE PHONE CALL 911 AND COWER.

       • I thought about the two guns myself. Zimmerman bought a pair of guns. Who knows how many others he may have owned. He bought one after his first release on bond, too. Who knows how many he owned really?

         But this gun was tested after the killing. I would hope that the SPD could at a minimum match the gun to the shot fired.

         • As I said above, GZ may have had some idea that he should have a second weapon, just in case things got sticky, the way they often do on tee vee. But, then, to be caught at the scene of a shooting, with two guns, would put the lie to him not knowing/remembering he was armed, among other incriminating things.

           We already know that his vehicle was removed from the scene, before the police could examine it. So, it’s possible that a back up weapon, could also have been removed from the scene, before the police could discover it.

           I’m kinda unwilling to believe that many casual remarks are going to be made at the scene of a shooting, by the shooter. I have to suspect that each remark the shooter makes, is made because it has some utility or purpose to it.

           So, when he says “my gun is on the ground”, to someone, before the police arrive? Is that, or could that be a message to someone, to get his “other gun” and take it away? Just as “tell my wife I shot someone”, might have been an instruction to come get my truck outta here quick.

           We know that GZ is no stranger to using codes!

       • Thanks for your reply.
         I stand corrected by gunnora. Its called racking not cocking. As far as I am concerned he and or someone close to him racked that gun before he said his last name on that NEN call.

       • Well, this idea would certainly make more sense of “my gun is on the ground”, then it appears in his holster. He could have actually been telling someone where to find his gun, as they handed him another one. But then why? It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t turn in the gun he actually used.
         And I’ve certainly got things out of order, because he says his gun is on the ground after the shot not before. But doesn’t it strike anyone as odd, that little conversation he had with a witness about what kind of gun and ammo he used? I’d certainly have thought that concerned and frightened citizens would focus more on “is he alive?” than on what kind of gun, less ammo, had been used.

         I’m not going to go in too deeply, because I have a lot going on right now. So I’m going to stick to skimming and pointing up anomalies I see, for those in more deeply to either work with or knock down. Like the “jewelry/repair” issue, the knock down didn’t fare so well, but hey, that’s what we’re supposed to be doing. I’ve pointed to a few anomalies I saw, a couple became food for thought, some were thought worthy of further investigation, and alas, a few of my offers turned out to be nothing more than terrible blunders. Correction is the most important thing that can be done here. Because, while there is no way yet, to know what the truth really might be, since all the evidence isn’t yet available, errors, misinfo and blunders if allowed to stand, will deprive us of the understandings we need.

         • “I’d certainly have thought that concerned and frightened citizens would focus more on “is he alive?” than on what kind of gun, less ammo, had been used.”

           Both Jon W13 and “John” W6 were/are the definitions of desensitized.

           • Yes, and I have to take back the idea that a cohort would have to appear to back GZ to the hilt. In this game of mirages, it might well be that someone, appearing to be against GZ or even neutral, could be using such an appearance as a cover.

             The only indication we have that there might have been a second gun, is his puzzling mention that there’s a gun on the ground and we don’t see any indication of him having picked it up and holstered it himself.

             Another thing is that the Osterman Resource would know about “throwaway guns” and how they can be used to frame shooting victims. If GZ had another gun, which he’d dropped on the ground, thinking to later claim it belonged to TM, he would have had to have thought up some reason why that wasn’t going to work. Possibly because he realized, he wasn’t going to get the chance to put it in TM’s hands or otherwise get TM’s evidence on it?

             The simplest explanation would be, it was just a back up and was traceable to him or someone close to him. So, it had to be removed at all costs and quickly. Before the police arrived.

             But, because there might have been evidence of a second gun in the truck, he’d need to cover that up, in case the truck couldn’t be removed. So, he planned ahead and told them that the keys are in the ignition, something he volunteers for no obvious reason. But, when the keys are found on the back walkway, he can easily disavow any knowledge of what was in his truck, since it would seem that someone went into it and altered things. “Plausible denial”.

             • Here’s a question. Why would the gun be on the ground? I guess he threw it aside instead of holstering it when he got on top of TM’s back and started playing with the body? Odd though, You wouldn’t want to give the suspect a chance to get the gun by having it out of your hands, right? Worst case you would stick it in your jacket pocket in a flash, if you didn’t want to take the time to holster, because you want to frisk the perp as quickly as possible.

               Possibilities,
               1. the kickback knocked it out of his hands?
               2. he couldn’t believe what he had done, so he tossed the gun away, out of fear and denial
               3. He has in hands, gets on TM’s back and tosses it far away enough that they couldn’t potentially struggle over it and he proceeds to frisk TM.

             • Re: the gun on the ground. I personally would probably be shaking so hard from adrenaline reaction that trying to stuff a gun into an inner pants holster would result in me shooting my ass off, literally. And you don’t want to be waving a gun around when the police arrive. /shrug

             • Yes Gunnora, but then you’re not a wannabee cop. GZ was cool, calm and collected, enough to calmly discuss the weapon and ammo he used. I have no doubt that he didn’t want the police to see him waving a weapon around, and he knew they’d arrive any minute. So he calmly put the gun back in its holster with so little effort no one standing around even noticed. Then he walked back towards the ‘T’ and probably strew the flashlight and key, to mark the spot where he knew, he had to claim he was attacked.

               He was caught by surprise that DD had heard them first encounter each other, and it wasn’t “do you have a problem hommie?” Like something out of a cartoon show. “Hommie” is disrespectful prision/jailhouse slang, I sincerely doubt TM would even know how to use it. It’s like “Buddy” which more often than not is disrespectful.

               I have a strong feeling that GZ saying that the gun is on the ground, is a signal to someone to get rid of it, because he brought a back up gun with him, and since he couldn’t get a “throwaway” which couldn’t be traced back to him or his friends, he knew a second gun being found would be a very bad thing for him.

             • Actually we don’t know what he did. All we do know is that his gun was found in his holster, inside his waistband by the police. How it got there we can only guess, because GZ told someone that it was on the ground.

               So, we’re trying to see what sense we can make of these facts, by hypothesizing alternative scenarios that might have occurred.

               My guess is, given what we know about truth dodging, code speaking GZ, perhaps, like in movies or on tv, GZ too brought a second gun along “just in case”. Not being able to afford or make an untraceable “throwaway” gun, his back up gun would belong to either him or someone he knew. It’s intended use, in that case, would have been, in case he lost control of his own gun somehow. In which case he’d have the back up one to use. He’d probably keep the backup strapped to his leg or in the rear waistband.

               Now, once he’d shot TM and knew the back up wasn’t needed, he’d also realize that having a second gun would be a berry bad ting. In which case a prearranged code, ensures that the gun is removed, without tipping off witnesses that it exists. The gun on the ground simply disappears into the mists, and the mention is simply put down to misspeak. Or, as in this case, never explained, just forgotten.

           • I can think of two reasons for someone to ask GZ about the caliber of the pistol.

             The first is a “reasonable” one: if you’re hit by a .40 caliber bullet, the hydrostatic shock, the mini-tsunami created in your blood and organs by the impact of the bullet, has enough force to kill you outright. A wound that would otherwise be non-fatal can be fatal if the hydrostatic shock is great enough. So, the question could really mean “is there any chance that the kid is actually alive or saveable?”

             The second reason is the “nefarious” one. The person may have asked Zimmerman which caliber he had, because that person was choosing a gun of the same caliber to snatch up to help. Why this would matter …. I dunno. Maybe they’d think that multiple Parabellum rounds would all look the same and be assumed to be from the same weapon — but only if they’ve NEVER watched any police procedural drama on TV, because you can tie a bullet to a specific weapon based on the unique marks the rifling and mechanism leave on a bullet. The lab test-fires the supposed murder weapon in a way that they can collect the bullet, and compares those under magnification with the remains of any bullets found in the body or at the scene.

             As I recall, the ammo GZ was using was a hollow point. Hollow points are designed to make a small hole going in, then the hollow nose peels open and expands to around 1.5X the original diameter and shreds the victim internally.

             One reason to use a 9mm and not a .40 is that there’s a little less chance that when you shoot someone that the bullet will go all the way through the person and potentially hit a bystander. Although if you are REALLY worried about this, you’d use something like a Glazer Safety Slug instead, a type of hollow point filled with birdshot that’s much more likely to chew up your intended target while not exiting to harm others.

             Which reminds me, do we know what BRAND of bullets GZ had loaded that night? That would say something about what he intended a bullet to do, and what he should have expected to happen when he fired it. The round was hollow-point, so he definitely expected a great amount of internal damage. If he was carrying something like Hornady XTPs, he should have expected that any hit almost anywhere on the body was likely to be fatal.

           • Agreed. How the hell do you just stand there and ask what ammo you use vs OMG did you seriously just kill someone?!

     • I am not convinced by the video. In the author’s terms, each sound consists of three “events.” However, the first “event” of the gun being chambered is quite different (more complex) than the first “event” on the NEN recording. Whatever makes the clicking on the NEN call is loud because it’s close to the mic, which means GZ is using both hands to make the noise, putting the object in the other hand near the phone. Being that close, if it was a Kel-Tec on the NEN call, it would sound just like the one in the video. It doesn’t.

       Besides, we know he had the phone in one hand, and we know he had a tactical flashlight. He’s only got two hands. In addition, there’s no reason for him to chamber a gun at that point in the call. He had just quit running after Martin, who had eluded him. The logical thing for him to do at that point was use his flashlight to look around. So banging the recalcitrant flashlight (and swearing at it’s failure) not only makes sense in the context of GZ’s actions, it matches GZ’s known number of apendages.

       If he’d been wearing shorts, he might have shoved his failing flashlight up his ass to free a hand to draw the Kel-Tec. But those look like pretty tough jeans he’s got on there…

       • Two arms and two armpits.

         • LOL.. and a neck and head to prop a phone as well as a dog poo station, some manicured bushes or neighbor’s car to rest the phone on. Hands-free. Admittedly, the dog poo station is a stretch.

         • Thank WSI, you said it before I did.
           I don’t understand why is so difficult not to believe GZ could be loading a gun and talking on the phone at the same time. We all multi task. Some better then others. For example, a woman can be talking on the phone, have a baby on her hip and stir a pot on a stove, and let the dog out the back door.

           I tend to think that some people believe that just because they can’t load a gun talk on a phone and put a flashlight under their armpit, that the same applies to GZ. He has done several things that night that most of us would of not done.

           • Thank you Loree, that was a clicking noice (GUN)! My previous job was international sales of law enforcement and military equipment, flashlights being a top product, That was not him hitting his flashlight, that was him PREPARING THAT GUN!

       • @Whonoze
         You are entitled to your opinion. But I respectfully disagree. I agree on the two different gun sounds, but are similar enough for me. Just like each gun produces their own different ridges on bullets, it is plausible to assume that each part of a gun has its own feel, sound , texture. Each owner of a gun treats their weapons differently. Oils, cloths, gun cases weather and owner treatment all effect the gun metal.

         You said, The logical thing for GZ to do was use his flashlight:
         GZ has not said or did anything that was logical on 2/26/12. What is logical for you or me is not logical for GZ.

         He can still stick his flashlight up his ass if wanted to, I’m sure he will get something quite differently in jail. If he is convicted.

247. Latest news… I don’t think O’Mara will win on SYG.

     1. There’s no proof that TM bashed GZ’s head on the concrete.
     2. There’s no reason to believe that even minor non-lethal resistance, would have prevented such acts from reaching life threatening proportions, if they did, in fact occur.
     3. It is more than obvious, even without expert examination, that an unarmed teen, not skilled in martial arts, could not mount a lethal attack at all with his hands.
     4. The hands that are said to be the cause of the feared lethal attack, are absent any evidence that they were used as claimed.
     5. We may therefore conclude that Zimmerman is simply making things up again.

     ===============>

     Mark O’Mara to seek ‘stand your ground’ hearing during George Zimmerman trial

     http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mark-OMara-to-seeks-stand-your-ground-hearing-during-George-Zimmerman-trial-165708616.html

     George Zimmerman, 28, charged with the murder of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, will seek to have second-degree murder charges dismissed under Florida’s ‘stand your ground’ law, his attorney said on Thursday.

     If successful in securing a hearing under the law, it could result in the dismissal of all criminal charges against the man accused of killing Martin.

     The hearing, which is not expected to take place for several months, will involve evidence collected by prosecutors as well as expert testimony from both sides. Accoring to the New York Post, legal experts believe that Zimmerman himself will testify since he is the sole survivor of the February 26 confrontation.

     ‘Most of the arguments, witnesses, experts and evidence that the defense would muster in a criminal trial will be presented in the ‘stand your ground’ hearing,’ a statement posted on Zimmerman’s official defense website said.

     Under the controversial Florida law, Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester could dismiss the charges if Zimmerman conclusively shows he shot Martin because he ‘reasonably believed’ he might be killed or suffer ‘great bodily harm’ at the hands of the unarmed teenager.

     Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mark-OMara-to-seeks-stand-your-ground-hearing-during-George-Zimmerman-trial-165708616.html#ixzz239hfR15k

     Evidence released by prosecutors shows ‘clear support for a strong claim of self-defense,’ Zimmerman’s defense website claimed this week. The statement added that Zimmerman attorney Mark O’Mara ‘urges everyone to be patient during this process and to reserve judgment until the evidence is presented in the ‘stand your ground’ hearing.’

     Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mark-OMara-to-seeks-stand-your-ground-hearing-during-George-Zimmerman-trial-165708616.html#ixzz239hmARYA

     http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mark-OMara-to-seeks-stand-your-ground-hearing-during-George-Zimmerman-trial-165708616.html

     Attorney Mark O’Mara and George Zimmerman

     http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-08-09/zimmerman-hearing-charges-dismissed-trayvon/56922994/1

     Under the stand-your-ground law, a defendant who claims self-defense is entitled to a hearing to determine whether he was in fear for his life. If he was, the law says he had the right to use lethal force and the charges are dropped.

     The decision will be made by Circuit Court Judge Kenneth Lester.

     Elizabeth Megale, a Savannah Law School professor who has studied Florida’s stand-your-ground law, says it doesn’t matter whether Zimmerman was the aggressor or when his fear was triggered.

     “Most people don’t understand, she says, that the law is broadly written. Zimmerman’s broken nose and lacerations on his skull are evidence that he would have been in fear, she says.

     No hearing has been scheduled.

     The office of Florida State Attorney Angela Corey released more documents in the case Thursday, including a state police report that showed Trayvon’s blood was on a bag of Skittles candy in his pocket.

     The office also inadvertently released Zimmerman’s school records, which are private under federal law. The records show Zimmerman was a below-average student at Seminole State College of Florida who was on academic probation after failing a science class.

     • From what I’ve read, Zimmerman had a duty to avail himself of all other means of protecting himself before using deadly force as the aggressor. That’s WHY his being on top just prior to the gunshot seems important to me and who saw what just prior to the shot. John did not see. Two witnesses captured the shot on their 9-1-1 calls. Of the two, only one of them saw (as opposed to heard) the positions just prior to the shot. Plus what the teacher saw.

       • Add: Even if he was on the bottom, if he could carry a woman across a bar room and toss her out the door, he’s perfectly capable of wrestling with a child who was laying on top of him. All he had to do was roll over and he’s free.

         Besides! At this point, he’s already made it off and away from the “deadly concrete” that was threatening his life. So, how can he now say that; he feared for his life, because his head was being banged on the grass?

         Does anyone think Angela Corey is going to miss this point?

         “Dream Team” O’Mara certainly seems to have missed it! And rightly he should, since missing it, is all he has to justify his running up more legal fees.

         (and don’t anyone go voting for me as prosecutor. lol)

         • Agreed. But I think the defense will bring up Zimmerman’s “back problems” and the utility cover.

           • Unfortunately for a man with his back problems, wriggling to the utility cover with someone on top of him is a bit of a stretch, eh?

             Before he knew that TM had his girlfriend on the phone to hear the confrontation, he said that he was punched at the ‘T’ where he “swatted flies” and fell down immediately, then TM pounced on top of him and began hitting his head on the concrete so badly that his head was about to explode, so he reached for his gun and shot TM. Leaving only one problem unexplained, TM was found 40.5 feet away from the ‘T’.

             So, unless TM got up and ran after being shot, GZ “has some ‘splainin to do.”

248. Trayvon Martin Corpse Photo Released Accidentally By Florida Prosecutors

     Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/297868/trayvon-martin-corpse-photo-released-accidentally-by-florida-prosecutors/#vl4vgqigd3F83WFW.99

     • Looks like he has sunglasses on. I can’t tell if he is face up or face down.

       • “The photo mistakenly released by Corey is a black and white copy of an image depicting the teenager lying face down on a lawn.” Looks like there are sunglasses on the BACK of his head. Not mentioned in any evidence is it?

249. It would explain a lot if GZ’s truck was moved by someone else during the NEN call. Were the extra sounds like chambering and tapping done by someone else there who might have run with him? Are there things GZ says in the NE call that weren’t said to the dispatcher (like, “fucking coons”, “these assholes always get away”)? Were they said to someone else there with him?

     His direction, “The keys are in my truck” makes no sense for the police. It makes perfect sense if his buddy who ran with him was about to drive GZ’s truck south on TTL. This explains why GZ never made it back to the truck’s location (assumption). It might explain his change of plan for the police to call him instead of meet him at his truck.

     If creepy George stayed on the north sidewalk, maybe his friend drove his truck down and flushed Trayvon from the south on foot. I’m wondering if this other person got physical with Trayvon where the phone was found on the ground; then continued the chase to George. Witnesses 1 & 2 both testify to hearing a loud “Yo”. In one of his versions GZ also heard “Yo” as the first thing as Trayvon approached him. Could this “Yo” have been from the truck driver alerting GZ?

     • I’d be more inclined to think that if another person was with Zimmerman, they’d be in their own car or on foot. I definitely believe there was a chase south to north.

       Thanks again for the transcripts, btw. I finally listened to the rest of recordings again with your transcripts on screen. I found your transcripts right on point and very accurate.

       The only very minor things I picked up that may/may not matter to you as far as fixing are noted within square brackets [ ] below:

       W1 – 3/1/2012 – Serino
       No omissions that changed meaning.

       W1 – 3/20/2012 – Bachelor
       No omissions that changed meaning.

       W2 – 3/1/2012 – Serino
       No omissions… Perfect!

       W2 – 3/9/2012 – Serino
       No omissions that changed meaning.

       W2 – 3/20/2012 – Bachelor and Post
       This inquiry is being conducted by agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement as well as [investigators with] the office of the State Attorney.

       Bahadoor: [Yes.] That was all.

       Bahadoor: I didn’t think of any direction as to where it was coming from at all. No, it never [crossed my]…

       • Thank you. There’s gold in them thar witness statements. If the 911 calls are a first draft of investigation, the witness statements are second. Then as later interviews are made more accuracy gets added. I’d like to hear what the FBI asked because I think each investigator knows what has been said before. Finally, the witness stand will straighten us all out.

         My sense of what happened is morphing as I study and compare the details brought out in these interviews. Little things are sometimes brushed over because the interviewer doesn’t recognize their importance. We must save these witnesses. Don’t like some of them? Are they laughable? Think again. There are not that many of them. Each has a part to add to the mosaic . I’m going to fight for their integrity. I am going to assume they are honest and in good faith. They didn’t know GZ was going to come into their back yard and terrorize The Retreat. I bet they are innocent in their views. Are the witnesses on trial? No.

         It’s hard to make what they say all fit together. I have to force myself to go with their sequence and timing. It is certainly going to take up time. I can see how Trayvon was still out of breath when he was found.

         I will include transcripts of 911 calls for witness 3 and the others who made them. Not planning on including witnesses 4, 7, 8, 9, 15, 21, 22, or GZ, FT, MO. Unsure about w10.

         • Yes there is. I think their statements mostly fit together as long as we can remember that witnesses are human — make ordinary human mistakes. For example, W1 says she looked out the window only once, but later says she looked out again (or so it seemed).

           Awesome that you’re doing these transcriptions. I can’t commit to typing them, but I can commit to reading them. 🙂

         • @Screamin Jay
           Thanks for all your hard work. I have a question for you. How’s your spanish? I have been trying to catch up on some things like the jailhouse calls. Tedious to say the least. Princss6 has a page called Storyfied (might be mispelled) where people give a one or two line summary of the calls. One call in particular that I happened to listen to is call number 108. They speak in english and spanish. Even though I am Hispanic, my spanish sucks. We only used the language to our Grandparents out of respect. So even though its bad I usually get the gist of what is said. If you know spanish I would like to get your thoughts of what was said before I tell you what I believed what was discussed, so I don’t contaminate your own thoughts.
           Thanks
           Loree

           • So interesting to hear about your grands. My grands, too, are hispanic. Sweetest people on earth before their passing. Wish I could help. My Spanish is limited. My grands died years ago and most of my family speaks English-only. We’re mutts and most of my English is learned from Native Americans, Euros and Africans — and, of course, U.S. schooling.

             • Thanks anyway. Mine are passed too.
               I had a friend listen without me telling her what I heard, and she confirmed my translation. I wanted to get another source that knows about the case.

           • Don’t know Spanish very well. I should because I live by the border. Funny you should ask. I’m actually a little intimidated by Spanish. At first the pronunciation seems predictable. But, it has lots of grammatical exceptions.

             Obviously, everything is important. But I want to stay on these witnesses. Beyond the raw, unprocessed 911 calls and interviews, I could see a timelined, streamlined synopsis for each one. These would contain ALL of what they said but would eliminate the interviewer, repeats, ums and ahs, etc. These would be compact and easier to work with. I suspect much will be revealed when attempting to fit them together into a master timeline. If nothing else, it points out mistakes they made.

             • oke dokie. I know you are on a mission with the transcripts. Didn’t hurt to ask, thanks anyway.
               Loree
               PS thanks again for the transcribed witness links!

         • @Screamin’ Jay

           Thank you again for transcribing these. It is greatly appreciated!

         • Thank you, again. I plan to draft a blog posting linking to the work you’ve done within the next day or two.

           Do you have a PayPal address you want me to add to the blog posting so that people can make donations? Feel free to email it as applicable: thelist@bcclist.com.

           • No donations. I was going to ask you about a witness blog. I’m excited about it. There is much potential here in prepping for the trial. But, it’s not for everyone. Some people are more into hard evidence. Even with evidence 90 percent in this case is going to depend on interpretation!

             Personally, I’m learning about human nature as I try to figure out how and why the witnesses mess up. There are certain pressures that come into play. We must leave their statements intact and understand them better. Like you say, it will be for the witness stand to straighten them out. Preparing new questions for them is part of the process.

             In the composite timeline I’m seeing there are several times when witnesses say there was no fight going on. This directly contradicts GZ.

           • I’m sure others have moved on to the next most recent thread to keep searching for answers (as we should), but I just want to say I think you’re both so extremely human-aware and considerate and I appreciate your dedication for whatever reasons.

           • You’re the tops! You both are amazing and I appreciate the dedication you both have displayed. I don’t know why I care so much about this case, but I do. I recognize those of us with a similar mania. Thank you both.
             (my beloved nephew at 17 was a white Treyvon. They could have been brothers. His loss would have killed me.)

           • brief second hush, then continue forward people! How funny is all this?!? Sorry NLME it is taking a toll on me but I was curious does aussie have a wife aussiekay? (wink)

250. Witness 3 text files.

     Her 911 call filename: Witness3call911.txt
     http://kiwi6.com/file/r3bcs6hj7n

     Her interview filename: Witness3batchelor19march2012.txt
     http://kiwi6.com/file/4ppeh15qg8

     • Thanks Jay

     • You are just banging these out – I bow to you. Thanks, again!

251. As a result of rearranging W1’s words into a consistent narrative, I’ve noticed a few things:

     In her kitchen at the beginning she hears a noise: weird, groaning or moaning, “No” or “Uh”, garbled. The person was trying to say something but it can’t be understood. I think her sister is there with her. This works with the sister’s testimony. Sister is implied with “we” in a few places of W1’s testimony. The testimonies of many witnesses will tie together with coinciding events. Are these two women twins? They seem joined at the hip. However, she may want to distance herself from her sister’s testimony probably because she did not see any chasing herself. I suspect they learned English as a second language.

     W1 goes to her sliding glass door and looks out for 15 to 20 seconds. She uses the word “window” sometimes for the sliding glass door. It does have a moving pane like in a window. She says it was closed at the beginning. She must have opened this door. She does not mention opening the door or going outside. Apparently, John(w6) comes out as she looks because she says she sees him come out. He may have gone back in before she quits looking because she sees this, too. But she says it was about the same time. This would mean John was out for about 10 to 15 seconds because she looked for 15 to 20 seconds at that time. She still thinks it’s just kids playing roughly. Even after John mentions 911 she is not afraid and still intends to go out.

     She goes back to kitchen and hears the gunshot. This is her estimated 60 second mark.

     5 seconds later she goes back to the sliding glass door. She sees the body face down. Now she’s scared.

     Goes upstairs and tells sister. While she is upstairs the cops are arriving out front.

     They come back downstairs together to the sliding glass door. They see the body face up. This is her estimated 2 minute mark.

     I don’t think anybody from this house ever went out back. They may have gone out on RVC where many neighbors were meeting.

     I’d like to know what you find about W1. Guess I can search it in the BCClist comment threads. I can also find some comments on AxiomAmnesia and YouTube videos of the W1 recordings. Anyway, my understanding of W1 is still evolving.

252. It occurs to me that Officer Smith AND Officer Raimondo were both involved in the Sherman Ware incident, and both of them were painstakingly cleared of all charges of wrongdoing although it sure LOOKED like both of them were participants in the wrongdoing (especially Raimondo). Both were at the scene in the Zimmerman shooting, Smith responding to the NEN call (perhaps even by plan) and Raimondo coming in some time later. Smith’s statement always sounded quite contrived to me. It was like he was trying to throw stuff in that had nothing to do with what he needed to do as his job that night, while ignoring a good part of what he should have been doing that night. I have not gone over the Smith and Raimondo statements with a fine tooth comb yet, though.
     The flap with Zimmerman being part of the protest against Chief tooley during the Sherman Ware days looked to me like him aligning himself with Chief Bill Lee in pushing out Tooley, getting rid of a political enemy of Bil Lee, and that is ALL it looked like to me. He said not one word in any meeting about Sherman Ware, racism, the SPD having profiled anyone, or any kind of prejudice or unfairness. He did not even speak about citizen safety; he spoke about cops being lazy (he loved to complain about his co-workers whenever he was on a job) and about Chief Tooley, who he said should lose his pension.
     This is not a fine upstanding citizen. This is a guy who was being political to lend political influence to someone (Chief Lee) he figured would do him a favor (hire him) in the future. It turned out that Lee did him a favor (tried to not prosecute him) in the future but it didn’t work out.
     That’s my take on it anyway.

253. The State Attorney has released a report on the DNA found on both GZ gun and holster, none of what was found belong to TM only GZ. This new information makes it hard to belive even more about GZ version of what happen. In GZ telling in the video he states that TM see the gun in the holster and attempts to get it, however GZ clamps his arm against his side to prevent TM from pulling the weapon out, this DNA report also goes against MO version in his book. To me this DNA report only shows that as many including myself belive that GZ already had the gun in his hands before he confronted TM at the “T” intersection.

     • John W

       Most of us believe what you believe, from the beginning when he stated that Martin came to his vehicle and that he was reaching as though he had something on him that GZ nor would anyone go after an armed would be thug, goon burglar without a weaon. We all knew that most likely Martin never approached him for anything and that he tracked him down with gun in hand. If he had not had the gun then he most likely would have stayed in his vehicle. Why confront a dangerous GOON? GZ never owned property in that subdivision so why didnt he just move like most people do. He acted as if he had to protect that neighborhood so badly when the ones who owned property there didnt even join the watch program.

       • Hi John and Riisey, it’s lonely over here, please join us in the newer thread! Regarding GZ never getting out of his car unless he had a gun, I agree 100%. For this, I put about 95% of the blame on his trusty friend Mark. I presume that GZ and Shellie would never have thought to carry guns if it hadn’t been for Mark and Sondra. Mark is a cop, the son of a cop. Sondra is also the product of a gun carrying culture.

       • riisey! It’s great to see you commenting! Come over to the new thread; I have missed your comments. 🙂