Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed

There are several updated maps plus new information regarding the Trayvon Martin shooting below - make sure you scroll down a bit!

At the end of my 8th grade Careers class, I stated my goal was to become an FBI agent. In front of the entire class, my 60+ year old chain smoking (in the indoor teacher’s lobby of course) teacher insisted I was too “big” to work for the FBI. Yes, he was basically saying, “Kid, you’re fat.”

Instead, the teacher suggested I become a trader because I absolutely destroyed the stock trading portion of our class by putting my entire pool of fake cash into Royal Dutch Shell (RDS) as it rose 30+ points in less than 4-5 months. I didn’t make this fake trade blindly – research was done daily (via a newspaper!) for a few weeks leading up to my “buy.” Meaning, at least I was having fun “investigating” something though trading stocks for a living still didn’t sound as fun of detective work. Yes, I have the world’s worst memory but I remember really random stuff like the above story from a boring 8th grade class. You’re so pissed you’ve made it this far in the posting for nothing, right?

My point is simple – I’ve always liked investigation/research…a lot. So, I’ve broken down the Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman crime scene based on as much public information that’s currently available. Here’s what’s currently known (assuming what’s known is accurate):

Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman crossed paths (update: maybe not…but maybe) before Trayvon walked north (update: north and then west) 1.4 miles (update: 1.5 miles round trip) to the neighborhood 7-11 for some Skittles and Iced Tea. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be enough time for Zimmerman to become paranoid about a black teen in the area or Trayvon to become concerned about a guy watching him.

So, upon his return to the gated community, Trayvon likely walked south from the “Front Entrance” (update: maybe…but maybe not) towards Zimmerman who phoned 911 when he noticed Trayvon again (because all suspicious looking black teens return to their crime scenes, right?). Zimmerman was sitting in a truck parked pointing north (update: west – see 3rd map below) the mailboxes near the clubhouse and “cut through.”

Click on the following for a larger map…

Trayvon approached Zimmerman’s truck en route to his father’s girlfriend’s house which was near the “Back Entrance.” Trayvon had his hand in his waistband and started running once he passed Zimmerman’s truck. Zimmerman followed by foot. Zimmerman was asked to stop following Trayvon by the 911 operator. The 911 call ends shortly thereafter when Zimmerman suggested to the operator that the police can call his cellphone when they show up. Once the 911 call ends, there’s a gap of time that’s not accounted for.

Per the final call with his girlfriend, Trayvon was concerned about Zimmerman watching him and would have likely tried to get home in an efficient manner. So, there’s only one possible route that each person would have taken to end up at the shooting scene. And, this route eliminates ANY possibility that Trayvon came up from behind and attacked Zimmerman as he was heading back to his truck (which was presumably parked on the STREET and not in the middle of a sidewalk area between two rows of buildings).

The only assumption I make above is that Trayvon wanted to get home. If he wanted to bait Zimmerman, he could have hid and “attacked” from behind as Zimmerman returned to his truck…if his truck was parked on the SIDEWALK in between 2 rows of buildings. This – a 150 pound 17 year old wanting to rough up a 200 pound 28 year old that’s stalking you – also seems rather unlikely to me (and I assume everybody else).

At the least, the Sanford Police Department absolutely sucks and Zimmerman should have been arrested. I’m not trying to play judge, jury, and executioner but Zimmerman’s story of being attacked from behind as he headed back to his truck doesn’t add up AT ALL and he should be awaiting a fair trial.

P.S. Completely unrelated but I find it super awkward that with all the police/EMT presence literally feet from their home, Trayvon Martin’s family didn’t file a missing police report until the next day. No, I’m obviously not suggesting anything…at all…I just find it weird. (update: Tracy Martin and Brandy Green were out to dinner during/after the shooting)

Update from 3/26:

Maybe it comes out that Zimmerman chased Trayvon Martin down with his truck to where the fatal shot was fired? So, in between buildings near a sidewalk and no street. If that’s the case, Zimmerman can kiss the “Stand Your Ground” law goodbye.

Update from 3/26 (I found it 3/29) - Interesting read:

http://crayfisher.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/a-different-look-at-the-trayvon-martin-case/

Update from 3/22 (I found it 3/30) - Retracing Trayvon Martin’s final steps with Tracy Martin:

Update from 3/31 – An alternative map:

If we’re to believe a word Zimmerman says – god, that’s been difficult so far – the alternative map could make sense. I’d still love to know where his truck was parked when the shot was fired. Meaning, the vehicle’s location will tell us if Zimmerman was just trying to get back to his truck when he was attacked from behind or if he continued to stalk Trayvon Martin after being told to stop following him.

Regardless, per the map below, Trayvon Martin runs past the sidewalk that would have lead to his back door (even though this isn’t necessarily the quickest/most logical way home) and heads south on Retreat View Circle. As BccList.com reader Jo commented, Zimmerman loses sight of Trayvon and proceeds south down the path between the buildings. After going south on Retreat View Circle, Trayvon heads west back towards the path – maybe he wasn’t carrying a front door key or maybe he wanted to see what the f_ck was going on with the weird guy chasing him – and runs into an overzealous Zimmerman again. At which point, the confrontation begins.

Either way, after being told by the 911 operator to chill out, Zimmerman is undeniably stalking his prey. It’s ludicrous to suggest Trayvon Martin didn’t have every right to beat his ass. Who’s to say Zimmerman wasn’t a kidnapper in Trayvon’s mind?

Without being said, there wasn’t an issue until Zimmerman got pwned* by a teenager weighing significantly less than him, supposedly started screaming for help (tough with a broken nose/blood gurgling down your throat), and decided to shoot another human being during a FIST FIGHT – WRESTLING MATCH (with cops only seconds/minutes away).

I guess this one didn’t get away, right – George? Congrats on living the rest of your life in hiding and/or prison.

*Keep in mind: Zimmerman’s father is a retired judge, his mom was a clerk, and he wanted to be a cop so he definitely knows how laws like “Stand Your Ground” work.

Update from 3/31 – Updated truck location:

The following unedited 911 tape and me measuring/timing out some distances has provided some new insight into where Zimmerman’s truck was parked…and this information is definitely DAMNING to his case.

So, Zimmerman’s truck likely wasn’t where I originally suggested in the maps above. Why? 2 reasons…

1) There are no houses for Trayvon Martin to be “looking about” as he heads south from the “Front Entrance” on Twin Trees. Well, per the map, there are obviously houses to look at but there’s nothing much to see. Meaning, all that’s visible from Twin Trees is the sides of houses. Zimmerman wouldn’t have imagined a story (in his own mind) where Trayvon was “looking at all the houses” if there was nothing of substance to look at.

If Zimmerman’s parked where it’s noted below, that gives him clear site of the clubhouse awning that Trayvon Martin was ducking under to avoid the rain. It also allows approximately 150 feet of houses – both the fronts (houses to the south) and backs (houses to the north) of them – for Trayvon to be looking into as he approached Zimmerman’s truck.

(update: In this “final” version of my map , Zimmerman mentions Trayvon Martin “looking at all the houses” before Trayvon leaves the clubhouse and heads towards his truck. Did Zimmerman mean clubhouse instead of house? Maybe. Did Zimmerman see Trayvon earlier in the evening looking “real suspicious” while walking to 7-11? Maybe. I’ll redact the above “150 feet of houses” statement though.)

And, this location would mean he’s still parked near a cut through and without clear view of a house number (though nowhere near the mailboxes…you suck at giving directions, George).

2) I just roped off 100 feet. I’m a 30ish year old male that’s slightly overweight but in decent shape. It took me approximately 20 seconds to walk 100 feet and 10 seconds to jog it. I wasn’t overly exerting myself in anyway – Zimmerman was on the phone and obviously couldn’t sprint – but these estimates should be good enough.

Zimmerman gets out of his truck at the 2:10 mark of the above recording. At the 2:15 mark, the door is heard shutting and he begins his pursuit. You don’t hear wind interference – from jogging/running – until the 2:17 mark. By 2:38/2:39, he has reached the sidewalk in between the buildings and declares, “He ran.” By 2:43, Zimmerman’s approaching Retreat View Circle and has stopped running per the lack of wind interference.

So, that’s 26 seconds of total jogging/running which equals approximately 260 feet. It’s 21-22 seconds of running to the sidewalk path (remember: “He ran”) which equals approximately 210 – 220 feet. By my calculations, the truck was parked approximately where I indicate below and Zimmerman COULDN’T have headed south on Twin Trees to cut Trayvon Martin off as I originally (the first map above) speculated.

This location of Zimmerman’s truck also coordinates quite well with the following:

  • Trayvon Martin had left the clubhouse and is heading towards Zimmerman’s truck at the :58 mark when the 911 operator says, “He’s near the clubhouse right now?” and Zimmerman says, “He’s AT the clubhouse.” Second later, Zimmerman says, “He’s coming towards me now.”
  • Trayvon Martin reaches Zimmerman’s truck at the 1:30 mark when Zimmerman shiats a brick and asks/pleads for the police.
  • Trayvon Martin is past Zimmerman’s truck between 1:35 and 1:40 when Zimmerman says, “Ok” in a faded tone (indicating he’s moved his mouth/head and is looking into the rear view mirror) and then says, “These assholes, they always get away.”

What’s wrong with the above timing/route as it pertains to Zimmerman’s story? If Zimmerman’s “just” trying to get back to his truck when he’s attacked from behind – and his truck is where I’ve drawn it – how does he end up killing Trayvon south of the “T” in the sidewalk?

Zimmerman must have headed south on the sidewalk at some point AFTER the 911 call ended (Are you following him? Ok, we don’t need you to do that.) for the murder scene to make sense, right? Why did he go south when his truck is due west? Meaning, his truck is not south AT ALL. Adios, “Stand Your Ground” law and hello stalking, manslaughter, murder, etc.

Update from 3/31 (I found it 4/1) - It’s not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

OH SH_T! Per the police report, Zimmerman claims he repeatedly cried out for help and nobody came to his rescue. If the above ends up being factually correct – it’s tough to doubt 2 independent experts – it’s CRAZY Zimmerman was deceiving/informed enough to know he had to claim he was crying for help because that’s what his victim was doing.

Update from 3/31 (I found it 4/1 – thank you, Amy!) - New Evidence Contradicts Zimmerman’s Claim of a Violent Fight With Trayvon Martin:

http://gawker.com/5898036/new-evidence-contradicts-zimmermans-claim-of-a-violent-fight-with-trayvon-martin

We’ve all seen the tape. Many of us obsessed with the investigation have heard from the funeral director and the autopsy report will confirm his assertion. But, I didn’t know the second ambulance was called off!

If EMTs respond to your fender bender, you’re likely getting put in a stretcher/neck brace. Why? Of course, to rightfully cover their asses. If Zimmerman was remotely hurt – I.e. a profoundly broken nose/wound to the head that required his fatal shot – that 2nd ambulance would have continued to the scene and Zimmerman would have been questioned at a hospital.

Update from 3/31 (I found it 4/1)Prosecutor in Trayvon Martin case known as tough:

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2012/03/31/prosecutor_in_trayvon_martin_case_known_as_tough/?page=full

The article’s title is encouraging. In fact, I only read a few sentences before sending it along to a friend to support my assumption that this investigation will be completed thoroughly. And then, a few minutes later, I continued to read the rest of the article…

A job evaluation from 2006 provided by Corey said “Angela is one of the best” in reference to her litigation skills. It said she goes out of her way to help others but also warned her against giving the impression that police officers could appeal to her with any decision about which they were unhappy. The evaluation is signed by Shorstein.

Corey also has been criticized for bringing a case to a grand jury that indicted a 12-year-old boy (Cristian Fernandez) for first-degree murder in the beating death of his 2-year-old half-brother instead of allowing it to be handled in juvenile court. Protesters marched outside her office and delivered a petition with 180,000 names opposed to the decision.

So, Angela Corey is accused of being in bed with police departments and has a history of trying juveniles to the fullest extent. Ummmm – Is somebody that’s in cahoots with the police while being aggressive towards juveniles really the best prosecutor for this particular investigation?!? WTF is wrong with you, State of Florida?

Update from 4/2 - A map including times from Zimmerman’s 911 call:

“Why did Trayvon run when he did around the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call?”

If my new map is correct, Zimmerman was still in his parked truck facing west by the cut through, watching Trayvon in his rearview mirrors, talking to 911 about how “these assholes always get away,” giving absolutely HORRIBLE directions to his location, and then Trayvon runs.

So, what made Trayvon run around the 2:08 mark? Rain? Was he sick/scared of being stalked by Zimmerman? And, by sick/scared of being stalked, I don’t mean the first time Trayvon noticed Zimmerman was when he was leaving the clubhouse’s awning at the beginning of Zimmerman’s 911 call. Trayvon wouldn’t be sick/scared of Zimmerman watching him if the only time they saw each other was from :01 – 1:30 of Zimmerman’s 911 call. I sort of make this point in my original posting but that seems like years (and a few maps) ago.

My goal from the outset on March 27th was to either prove or disprove that Zimmerman was attacked from behind by Trayvon as he was returning to his truck.

In this scenario – and almost every other scenario I’ve dreamt up online/offline – that’s 100% impossible. And, of course, providing false information (seemingly a recurring theme in this case so far) is a crime.

Update from 4/11

George Zimmerman to be charged with Second Degree Murder by Angela Corey in the death of Trayvon Martin

Update from 4/17 (I received it 4/9) – A map based on witness location AND description was submitted by BccList.com visitor Tchoupi Caillou…

witness map for trayvon martin george zimmerman

2831 Retreat View Circle is on the Property Appraiser of Seminole County under Selma. This also is the 2nd address given by dispatcher to help police Officers locate the crime scene.

1211 Twin Trees Lane pops up when you google Jeremy in the Twin Trees or Retreat View. He seem to have a home business. Jeremy is also the name called out in the earliest 911 call. He was basically instructed to stay inside during the scuffle.

1221 Twin Trees Lane is “John’s” place as shown by Fox Orlando.

1231 Twin Trees Lane is the first address used to direct Officer Timothy Smith. This female witness is the one who saw a white t-shirt. More importantly, when it comes to locating her house, she is the one saying that the police officer should go to her backyard rather than her front.

2851 Retreat View Circle isn’t directly related to the witness I claim. But, I think there is more than 80% chance I’m right since she was able to see and hear details of the fight. She could hear the two men arguing before the cries for help. She could hear George Zimmerman tell Officer T. Smith that he killed Trayvon Martin. When the 2 officer flipped TM’s body, she could see it was that of a young boy. If you compare to the account from Mary & Selma, you have to conclude that she must have been the closest to the crime scene together with “John.”

Concerning the other two witnesses — Austin McLendon & his mother Cheryl Brown have been outside around the time of GZ’s call.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/17/trayvon-martin-killing-yo_n_1355795.html

Placing at least Austin on the map may help understand what happen.

The last witness is simply a question mark. I’m even not sure he/she is the one that talked on AC360.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/29/trayvon-martin-witness-breaks-silence/

Update from 4/20 – New photo shows George Zimmerman’s head bloodied after Trayvon Martin’s shooting…

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/photo-shows-george-zimmerman-head-bloodied-trayvon-martin-death-article-1.1064765

How bad could it have been if they didn’t take him to the hospital didn’t stitch him up,” Benjamin Crump said in a statement to ABC News

I really hope Trayvon Martin fought courageously as some strange man was stalking him on the way home from 7/11.

Also, I wonder if the witness “John” was the picture taker — see posting comments.

Update from 4/20 – UNDER OATH, Zimmerman addressed the court today and says he didn’t know how old Trayvon was:

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/george-zimmerman-takes-the-stand_b123687

Zimmerman nailed Trayvon Martin’s age during the 911 call though:

“He’s got a button on his shirt, late teens.”

From 12:55 pm EDT: https://twitter.com/#!/bcclist/status/193382510359613440

Update from 4/20 - This site includes a video mashup of George Zimmerman lying under oath…

http://kollegekidd.com/cnv/kollegekidd/video/1001-george-zimmerman-lies-under-oath-at-bond-hearing

Update from 4/26 - What’s up with this Frank Taaffe guy and where did Joe Oliver go?

I was watching some TV interview where Joe Oliver said he would put a hoodie on and march the day he found out George Zimmerman was a fraud. Has he marched yet?

And, Frank Taaffe has come to the defense of his neighbor and friend, George Zimmerman, as seen here…

So, where does Frank Taaffe live? 1460 Retreat View Sanford, FL…

Would you take route option 1 or 2 below if you wanted to enter the gated community (that reportedly locked at 7 pm while Trayvon was out getting Skittles and Iced Tea) as soon as possible to avoid the rain? Either option would make a real suspicious guy acting like he’s on drugs walking about in the rain visible through Frank Taaffe’s (A) back windows…

Was Frank Taaffe wearing a white t-shirt (see witness 911 calls, comments section of this posting, or upcoming section)? Did George Zimmerman make any calls to Taaffe that night or vice versa? Did Zimmerman, Taaffe, anybody else on the neighborhood watch team have CB radios and did they ever use them to communicate? All of these questions are important.

As for the white t-shirt person described during witness 911 calls…

A few weeks back, I ran a test on my wife. If she didn’t think I was crazy before, she did afterwards…for a few seconds at least. I put on a t-shirt that sort of matched what Zimmerman was wearing in the surveillance video from the police department station. See below.

It was after the sun was down, pretty dark, and there was a drizzle. She doesn’t follow my blog posting or the case. Before going 20 feet out in the lawn, I asked her to give me an instant response to a question I was about to ask. When I counted off 20 feet, I asked: “Is this a dark, grey, or white shirt?” She responded without hesitation: “Dark — but not really.” I asked her what her second choice was: “Grey — I guess.” Regardless, the t-shirt definitely wasn’t white in her opinion.

So, who was wearing the white t-shirt per a 911 witness? It wasn’t George per my test above and the assertion that he was wearing a jacket during the entire wrestling match. It wasn’t Trayvon with his grey hoodie. It wasn’t a uniformed cop. How about the witness “John,” Frank Taaffe, or other? Who took the picture of Zimmerman’s apparently bloodied head? Are there any other pics from the scene of the shooting before/after the police showed up? We have this one showing a tarp over something that is NOT directly near a sidewalk as Zimmerman has apparently claimed…

Update from 4/27 - Zimmerman has $204,000 in his PayPal account:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/27/justice/florida-zimmerman-money/

I wonder what else he’s hiding from his lawyer? I’d absolutely hate to be Mark O’Mara (other than his eventual $1M payday).

Update from 5/12 - Florida woman, Marissa Alexander, sentenced to 20 years in controversial warning shot Stand Your Ground case:

Same prosecutor (Angela Corey) and state (Florida) as Zimmerman but this was just a warning shot that harmed nobody.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/florida-stand-ground-sentencing/index.html

Update from 5/10 (I found it 5/13) - Blog commenter “aussie” posted a video of Franke Taaffe’s DAMNING crime scene walkthrough:

Frank Taaffe 100% confirms my most recent/ final map plus the fact that Trayvon and other teens cross by his back window frequently – see below!

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/frank-taaffe-address-google-street-view.jpg

I can’t believe it! 2 discrepancies with Taaffe’s story…

1) The area at the T where he says the confrontation occurred. All other reports say it was south of the T (including the reporter in the above video).

2) Trayvon Martin didn’t circle Zimmerman’s vehicle. The timing would have been impossible per Zimmerman’s 911 call.

This is by far the most damning evidence against George Zimmerman and his Stand Your Ground defense. By the time he shot Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman should have been in his parked car waiting for Stanford Police to meet him. Instead, he stalked, harassed, and preyed upon an unarmed African American teenager.

Update from 5/14 - Angela Corey files a list of witnesses and evidence in George Zimmerman – Trayvon Martin shooting:

http://bcclist.com/2012/05/14/trayvon-marting-george-zimmerman-court-proceedings-and-trial/

Note: I published and will continue to update the above “Evidence and Court Proceedings” blog posting as this one was getting overly lengthy with case updates and incredibly insightful comments.

Update from 5/23 - A new map that Zimmerman’s defense team will not like…at all.

I wondered why, on 5/10, Frank Taaffe would blow Zimmerman’s Stand Your Ground and/or self defense case. Not that Taaffe’s sloppy reenactment seen above matters – Zimmerman still should have never been a step south of the T in the original “final” map – but, if this new “final” map ends up being correct, the hurdle is insurmountable for O’Mara.

The above posting is the 1st of 5 postings that includes updates regarding the Trayvon Martin – George Zimmerman shooting. The others can be found here…

2 of 5…

http://bcclist.com/2012/05/14/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-court-proceedings-and-trial/

3 of 5…

http://bcclist.com/2012/06/29/recapping-george-zimmermans-2nd-bond-hearing/

4 of 5…

http://bcclist.com/2012/07/12/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-2nd-evidence-release/

5 of 5…

http://bcclist.com/2012/08/08/stand-your-ground-hearing-for-george-zimmerman/

 Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

2,034 thoughts on “Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed

      • Great sleuth work. Thing is, Zimmerman knew he was talking a minor child. He even tells the dispatcher, “he’s a black male, in his late teens”. And again when he tell the dispatcher, “I don’t know where THIS KID IS”.

      • At his bail hearing today Zimmerman now says he didn’t know who Trayvon was and thought at the time that he was about the same age as himself. Let’s just hope the special prosecutor is thorough in her research, Zimmerman’s credibility will be shot before they finish their opening remarks.

          • Most people are taking just the events they are shown, but things don’t happen during the day, unconnected to other things going on. Zimmerman says he’s going to the store, but think for a minute; it’s raining out side, do you really want to drive to the store if you don’t have to? Okay, so you want a cup of coffee or a soft drink, but there’s no milk or soda. Or you need pens, paper or any of a zillion other things you can run out of, that will send you off to the store in the rain (toilet paper?).

            So then, you’re on you way to the store with a real mission, for something you really don’t want to do without, rain notwithstanding. Pretty darned pressing, eh? Usually, people on their way to the store, are thinking about getting what they want, and not to waste the trip, they try to think of other things they may need.

            With less than a minute to cover the 300 feet to the gate at 15, 20, 30 mph, do you really start looking around to see if there’s a suspicious person wandering about in the rain? In a gated community where you hardly ever see people walking? Let alone in the rain! If you see someone who is walking, are you going to stop your trip and start following them? If your needs were pressing enough to get you out driving in the rain, and heavy rain at that, you’re focus is going to be on the road and the store, not on who might come walking along. So, under Zim’s given conditions, he’s acting very strange. His trip to the store wasn’t quite so pressing after all, eh? He drops it in favor of following, someone, his supposedly occupied mind should not have seen.

            I wonder what time Target in Sanford closes? Maybe that was a consideration as well, that could be factored in? Then there’s helpful good neighbor John, who it appears, is the only one who thought to take a picture of Zimmerman’s head wounds! What?!? Don’t the police watch CSI? They don’t have cell phones with cameras themselves? Or is it they don’t know how to use them? Or when? Talk about things that make you go hmmm.

      • For what it’s worth:

        I get the general impression that Z left his house at 7pm, to drive to the store. If so, then why does he wind up some 8-9 minutes later, approx. 300 feet from his door? A speed of less than 1/4 mph??? Or, more likely stopped near the front gate and waiting? But for what and why?

        People in gated communities don’t do much walking even when the weather is clear. So then, why is Z waiting several minutes near the front gate, for the one person (probably per year), who will be returning home on foot in the rain?

        Just a coincidence that he leaves home at 7pm and somehow spends 7-8 minutes near the front gate, to spot the only one walking home? It just happens to be a “suspicious” young black male! Talk about things that make you go Hmmm.

        The only other way I can see that this “accuracy” can be achieved, is if someone called him from the store, letting him know that Trayvon was on his way home, giving Z time to position himself at the front gate.

        For a real shopping trip as his destination, it only takes about 1 minute to leave the area entirely, so he can’t meet Trayvon at all unless he leaves home ahead of T’s arrival at the front gate and waits. Very strange!

          • In one of the postings on my blog [http://themindlesspraetorianblog.blogspot.com/] There seemed to be a mention of him leaving his house at 7pm. You’ll note in the articles I’ve collected there, there are a lot of links to follow, that’s making it hard for me to track down. Also, because a lot of people are speaking for Zimmerman, it’s sometimes confusing as to who said what in memory.

            So I just threw it out there, hopefully some one who sees the value of it, might know or see something and report it back.

            Never-the-less, it did seem a bit strange to me, that in a neighborhood where very few people walk much at all, that Zimmerman would just happen to encounter the only person who probably walked anywhere in that compound on a rainy night too boot. Him being only one minute or less from the front gate, he’s got to “coincidentally” leave home one minute to nine after 7pm, to make it happen “as he’s going out the front gate”. But, from the story, with Trayvon taking shelter from the rain for 4 minutes or so, The “feel” of his coincidental encounter, just doesn’t feel quite right.

            In fact, one has to put aside the feeling, after reading much, that Zimmerman might have been somehow getting up-to-the-minute reports of Trayvon’s movements from around the 7-11 store. Of course we’ll never know about that, even if it did happen, it would take a detective working overtime to ferret it out.

            Needless to say that a one minute window in an entire evening is a bit to swallow, most especially on a rainy night in a gated community. The more I go over the story, the more I get the feeling that Zimmerman was probably laying in wait for Trayvon to return from the store. Anyone else get that feeling?

            • I get the feeling that Trayvon was being stalked before Zimmerman’s 911 call too. Otherwise, why would he run at the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s call? I guess we’ll find out soon once this thing goes to trial.

  1. I have the same disease that is researching & investigating. I reached to many of the same conclusion than you except for a few points:
    1) GZ must have spotted TM from outside the gated community: I that assertion totally groundless.
    2) timing is key here knowing that you can walk from the north entrance to TM’s home in about 3min there is no way TM ran straight home. He must have spent time hiding somewhere north of the spot where he was eventually killed.
    Here is the timing information I have collected:
    7:09 – GZ calls 911 to report TM’s activity in the gated community.
    7:11 – GZ reports that TM runs away and starts chasing him on foot.
    7:12 – TM calls girlfriend and tells her about GZ chasing him and that he lost him (according to girlfriend).
    7:13 – GZ ends 911 call with clear indication that he is not planning to wait police at the mail boxes.
    7:16 – TM’s call to girlfriend ends on TM saying GZ is behind him again followed by an altercation (according to GF).
    7:16 – First 911 call from 1st ear witness of the struggle.
    7:16 – First 911 call from 1st eyewitness of part of the struggle reporting for for man in white (TM) being on top of man in red (GZ).
    7:16 (about) – A 14yo kid walking his dog sees the fight with 1 man on the ground another one on top but like the other eyewitness he wouldn’t see the whole fight.
    7:17 – Police arrives in the gated community.
    7:17 to 7:18 – 4 911 calls reporting gunshot.
    7:19 – Last 911 call from the 14yo witness and his little sister.

    One point here is that TM could have been home with no way for GZ to chase him.
    The 2nd point is that it seems clear that TM opted for hiding. Once feeling safe, he called his GF to recount his misadventure.
    The 3rd point is tat GZ was clearly looking after TM. He would have walked back to his car he won’t have seen TM walking off his hideout.

    In the end everything comes down to GZ’s words against TM’s GF’s words.
    To my opinion, GZ account of the events looks weak because there is no purpose for TM’s attack. Such attack is totally free and would only be possible if TM was out of his mind (like being on drug). OK, we now know TM was caught with pot but pot makes you cool and slow and certainly not aggressive. Furthermore, there is no indication at this point that TM tested positive to drug/alcohol. Finally, telephone logs clearly show TM was on the phone with his GF which doesn’t fit with the picture of an bloody aggressor.

    It would be interesting to know where the 14yo kid was located right before the struggle. That would help understanding where GZ & TM were not.

    • Wow – excellent info! I’ll definitely be using the timing you included – thank you! – tomorrow morning when I scale out some distances that either could have traveled.

      At the time of the shooting, was GZ’s truck parked within feet (sidewalk/grassy area) – not several hundred feet (road) – of the confrontation? If so, WTF was he thinking (essentially) off-roading?

      • No, according the GZ’s 911 call, the truck was on Twin Trees Str pass the mail boxes from the north entrance.

        Zimmerman:

        Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past
        the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and
        then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10].

        GZ went off his truck right after reporting TM running away. You can hear that from the 911 recording at 2’08″: There are car warnings sounds typical of someone opening driver’s side doors while living key on or headlights on. You also suddenly get the noise from the wind on the mic and GZ starts puffing suggesting that he’s running.
        Still from the discussion, GZ was not willing to walk back to his truck. Indeed, at 3’42” (>1min after the dispatcher asked him no to follow TM) GZ rejects the dispatchers request for meeting the officer at the mailbox and proposes that he’s been called instead so he can give his location. So, GZ is clearly on the hunting mode as also suggested by the derogatory comments of frustrations he made (fucking coon/goon, these asshole always get away, …).

    • “To my opinion, GZ account of the events looks weak because there is no purpose for TM’s attack.”

      Having myself been punched in the face by an aggressive teenager for no apparent reason many years ago, I can attest from personal experience that just because you can’t see a purpose for the attack doesn’t mean that there was no purpose in the attacker’s mind.

      Remember, one of Martin’s tweets (from December 2011) was “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

    • Great attention to details except one big one. According to Miami Dade Public School Security, Trayvon WAS NOT caught with pot. It was a small EMPTY bag that supposedly once contained pot.

      School Security has gone on record and stated they did not take any action and did not know what the small bag ever contained. There have been no official reports from the toxologist to indicate Trayvon ever used any drugs.

      Also, due to the fact that TM was found dead with no identification on him, police fingerprinted him thinking he may have had an arrest record. They stated he DID NOT have an arrest record. The purpose of fingerprinting him was to pull up a name to match the “John Doe” body.

    • Martin may have hid for a while not wanting Zimm to follow him home since his dad and his girlfriend went out for the evening. He would have been leading him to his brother and whoever was at the house. If his dad would have been home maybe he would have went straight home and been there in time for this not to happen. If thats what happened its really bad luck.

  2. If they even attempted to file a missing persons report, the police wouldn’t have accepted it until 24 hours later, he’s 17, not high priority. Plus, they were watching the game, pops probably had a few beers and passed out. Who knows, but it’s really not that weird considering he’s 17 not 12.

    • I wouldn’t assume the beers part but I’m not sure why they’d have to file a report if there was all that commotion a few hundred yards away and there son didn’t come home from the 7-11 convenience store with his iced tea and skittles. Remember: It took the police awhile to change Trayvon Martin’s name from John Doe (autopsy tag).

      • pops was out at dinner with fiance and didn’t arrive home until 11 ish. probly tired.

    • They filed that morning. That was when the police came to the house asked for a picture then showed the dad a pic. Tm was not in the morgue for three days unidentified he was in the morgue listed as john does for 3 days and that’s when the body was released for burial. Dad went to bed thinking his son went to a late movie. Apparently it takes some time to change a person’s status front john does to tm.

    • According to Trayvon’s father, he and his fiance had gone out to dinner and did not return home until late that evening. He called Trayvon’s phone, it went straight to voice mail. He mentions something about Trayvon going to the movies, so he didn’t think much it.

      He also states after the murder, that when he and his fiance returned home, there was no sign of yellow tape or any indication that a crime had actually taken place earlier that evening.

      Early the next morning, when he noticed that Trayvon was not home, he immediately started making calls inquiring about his son’s whereabouts. Police and a chaplain came to his home and asked him if he had a picture of Trayvon, he showed them one he had stored in his cellphone.

      They then asked him to i.d. a picture they had, he confirmed it was his son. According to Mr. Martin, the picture shows “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his face, and saliva coming from his mouth”.

  3. You have a few issues with your article. I am having to rewrite my own as well.
    If you notice the curb were the side walk goes between the two buildings where your black arrow leaves the road. That is where Zimmerman’s car was and where he was attacked.

    Second issue Zimmerman is out of shape you can hear it in his breathing on the 911 tape. No chance in hell he could make the distance around the building. As for the 14 year old his name is Austin Brown. He was walking his dog up that path and seen Zimmerman at the end of the building near on his back in the grass. Zimmerman was identified as the man in the red shirt.

    Martin could have used his cell to call 911 if he was scared as well. As you said he could have gone on to his fathers. There is a solid 1 minute and 30 seconds on tape that zimmerman is talking to the dispatcher.

    For Martin to have lost Zimmerman he had to break the line of site. That isn’t to hard. Zimmerman only ran for 8 seconds its on the tape you can tell the difference in how he can talk.

    What does all that mean for whatever reason Martin went away from safety and made a choice to confront Zimmerman. He wasn’t being pursued as people make out. That means what the witness John said and Austin Brown also fits.

    The crazy lady who said she seen zimmerman following brown after he had been told not to. Well she had no way of hearing when Zimmerman was asked to stop. The fact she came forward later makes me believe she got info from the press and just wants attention.

    • “Martin could have used his phone to call 911 if he was scared”

      But he had as much right to “stand his ground” as Zimmerman. Also, if you’re being chased, you don’t just stand there and call 911. You either run or you fight. Yes, Zimmerman was following him, as the phone witness stated.

    • :::: As for the 14 year old his name is Austin Brown. He was walking his dog up that path and seen Zimmerman at the end of the building near on his back in the grass. Zimmerman was identified as the man in the red shirt.::::

      No, Austin Brown DID NOT identify Zimmerman as the guy on the ground. Brown and his mother have emphatically stated that the police LIED about that, and that Brown never wavered (edit) from saying it was MARTIN on the ground.

    • The minute thirty — TM walked over to “check GZ out”; then ran. He hid, catching his breath, walked out of hiding and was cornered by GZ.

    • And you have several issues with your version of the incident. First of all, Austin NEVER told the dispatcher he saw Zimmerman, nor did he say he saw anyone in a red shirt.

      Austin’s mother and attorney did a video interview in which she states emphatically that her son never told the 911 operator her son saw anyone any a red shirt, only saw one person on the ground who was screaming for help, and that it was too dark for him to see.

      If you listen to the tape, you will notice the dispatcher NEVER even asked Austin what color clothing anyone was wearing, and NEVER asked Austin who was on top or bottom.

      Austin’s mother was present when a detective came to her home, approximately 1 week later to question her son. She said her son pretty much repeated the same thing he told the 911 dispatcher.

      She said the detective then offered her son 3 color options, one of which was red. It was then that Austion said red. She also said the detective told her he knew Zimmerman was lying about his account of what happened.

      Of all the accounts I’ve read, and his mother’s statements, Austin is 13 years old, not 14.

      Interestingly, Austin’s sister’s call to 911 is the shortest of all the 8 calls made. He basically tells the dispatcher he saw a man screaming, I was going to over and help him but my dog got away. The dispatcher asked him if he knew the person on the ground, Austin says, “no”.

      As far as the “crazy lady” telling her version of the story after the fact, so did John.

      Please forgive me if I say your conclusions are void of any objectivity.

    • Zimmerman was identified via police video as the man in the red bomber (puffy) styled jacket, not as you claim, the man in the red shirt. More specifically, the person (singular) was lying on the ground wore a red tee-shirt. I can’t see anybody describing a red bomber jacket as a red tee-shirt. We know that zimmerman was wearing a green, blue or grey tee-shirt (which could appear white under the flashes of light from high tech flashlights). The only thing we don’t yet know is the color Trayvon Martin’s shirt/tee-shirt if it was visible. On a secondary note, some witnesses have described the man on top as wearing a white-tee and another has described the murdered Trayvon Martin as wearing a dark gray hoodie which bore visible gun shot burns after the killing.

  4. Do you think he might be running when we hear the wind in the cell phone and he is walking when we don’t here the wind. Could you figure out some distances using this theory.

  5. Thanks for the map. To me it does not make sense that Zimmerman would take a different route than Martin. If Zimmerman was following, wouldn’t he take the same route? If so, perhaps they got a lot closer to Martin’s father’s girlfriend’s house and then Martin turned and started walking back along the same route.

    I like the map, but don’t understand the logic and conclusion.

    • Zimmerman was either pursuing Trayvon Martin on foot or behind the wheel of his truck. While pursuing Trayvon east on the map, he likely saw Martin’s path turn south down the sidewalk in between the buildings. Instead of running or pursuing behind him, I’m speculating Zimmerman thought it would be better to come between Trayvon and the back entrance.

      • I question the person called “John” who says he told Zimmerman to stop calling for help. That doesn’t make sense. Why would a witness tell someone to “stop”? He also says they were wrestling which doesn’t add up if GZ is on the ground being severely beaten. If he only saw them wresting then he did not see the actual final moments and the position of their bodies, since he says he ran inside and called from his upstairs phone which takes at least 30 seconds.

      • Couldn’t find a reply button to respond to Caroline, so I’m replying to you instead.

        Just wanted to let her know that my assessment of “John” is pretty much the same. Just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. I mean, who tells a person yelling for help to stop? It actually sounds like something Zimmerman would have said instead.

        I do have some suspicions that “John” may very well be the person one caller described as wearing a white shirt.

    • GZ knew he couldn’t catch up; he saw TM turn south, went down Twin Trees made left to cut him off. Check girlfriends speculation of TM being “cornered”

  6. The police report lists Martin at 160, not 140, autopsy will determin actual weight. Also Martin is 3-5 inches taller than Zimmerman, based on various reports.

      • I think people are making too much of an issue of Trayvon’s height and weight. Its just not relevant unless one has a bias against a tall black male.

  7. Good job.

    Details worth adding:

    1.There is a 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, about 3/4 mile away; Google Maps misses it but MapQuest finds it. The logical route to that is past the main gate and clubhouse.

    2. I assume you checked the 911 transcript of the Zimmerman call. He seems to be parked by the cut through with a sidewalk, so why the assumption that he took the yellow path? And do we love the timing? Martin is walking (quickly, if we believe the girlfriend) between the townhouses; Zimmerman goes an equal distance down Twin Trees and cuts through. Good quickness for the large guy.

    3. I have been advised that the girlfriend, Brandy Latresa Green lives at 2631 Retreat View Circle. Which means Martin was on a logical route home between the houses to the back door.

  8. GZ SHOULD OF BACKED OFF LIKE THE POLICE DISPATHCHER TOLD HIM TO DO, WHICH GZ AGREED HE WOULD BUT HE DID NOT WHICH STATES HE WAS LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM AND ALSO MAKES HIM THE AGRESSOR.THIS WHOLE SITUATION COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF YOU DIDNT HAVE SOME IDIOT WITH A GUN PLAYING ROBO COP TRYING TO TAKE MATTERS INTO HIS OWN HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • According to the 911 call, he did — he said he was going to head back to his truck after the dispatcher told him not to persue. Even on this map it looks like he was headed back to his truck when the confrontation occurred. But even so, a dispatcher is not given authority. You do not have to listen to them or wait for permission. The woman in Oklahoma whose apartment was broken into (after her husband died of cancer) did not get “permission” to shoot the guy dead who was going to violate her after he broke in. Why aren’t you pissing and moaning that she didn’t wait for the police before she shot her attacker? The guy didn’t even hit her, he just broke into her house… she could have survived… probably… the dispatcher didn’t tell her she could shoot, she just told her that she had a right to defend herself… Does everyone have that right? Or do we have to wait for the dispatcher and the police to tell us our rights?

      • The shots occurred well south of the T. In my map where Zimmerman doesn’t continue stalking the teen heading south down the path, the location is impossible for him to get attacked from behind while returning to his truck.

      • I’ll bet he wishes he had listened to the wise counsel given to him by the dispatcher. Instructions any reasonable person would have followed. Now he’s in jail facing a 2nd degree murder charge, 25 years to life.

        There’s a whole lot of things that people tell us to do, such as 911 dispatchers, that are usually for our own safey, and the safety of others, such as, “We don’t NEED YOU to do that, i.e. It’s not necessary.

        Do you think Zimmerman would have put his hand on a hot stove after being told not to do it? Maybe, considering his unstable history. The choice to pursue Trayvon was Zimmerman’s, and Zimmerman’s alone.

      • This response was ridiculous. If someone forces their way into your home, that is a threat to your safety and any reasonable person would fear for their life. Trayvon was walking in a public area, not engaging in any criminal or threatening activity. He also said “okay” when he was told they didn’t need him to follow TM, and then followed anyway. Apples and oranges.

      • It’s not the “authority” of the dispatcher that’s the issue. It’s the certain knowledge of Neighborhood watcher, that they should not follow and certainly not do so while armed. Since he was armed and knows from his training, that following is the wrong thing to do, this dispatchers reminder that his following isn’t needed, should be enough to remind GZ of the rules and why they exist. The reason that NW’er are told not to follow suspects is, because by doing so, they risk compromising the PD’s case, if any should result. Why would a NW want to risk the possibility of being responsible for setting the culprit free?

        Thus, GZ’s following, may very well result, as he has been told, in another one getting away. So this should be his concern, and it certainly is the dispatchers concern. Meaning that by going forward with his following, GZ shows that he’s not concerned with the PD building any case. He doesn’t care if the PD is able to make any case at all. Which says he has another “solution” in mind.

    • Exactly. Zimmerman never had any attentions of stopping his pursuit of Trayvon. Nothing in the tape indicates he stopped following Trayvon. And I noticed how Zimmerma quickly changes his mind after agreeing to meet the police by the mailboxes.

      Instead, he tells the dispatcher to just have the police call him when they arrive and will then tell them where he is. Why put the police in the position of having to look for you and the so called suspect? Never mind how casual he sounds while talking to the dispatcher.

      If Zimmerman is fear of his life or safety, saying things like “he’s coming to check me out, he’ got something in his hands, he’s got his hands in his pocket” seems like he would have agreed to wait where the dispatcher told him to wait. I also find it interesting that Zimmerman did not call 911 but the non-emergency line instead.

      Also, his statements to the police makes it clear he was following Trayvon. How would he know where Trayvon was supposedly hiding?

      • Sleuth, very good point! When GZ told the dispatcher to have the police call him rather than meet him at the mailboxes tells me he had no intentions of being there to wait for them. Why he didn’t say he would be in his truck (SUV) parked in that location rather than “Have them call me” sounds like he was walking around on the prowl for TM.

  9. you know your entire theory is flawed because Zimmerman told police on the 911 call to turn “left” and go past the clubhouse, and continue left. Your map is totally inaccurate and totally off.

    • FAIL!

      Zimmerman:

      When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.

      911 dispatcher:

      OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

      Zimmerman:

      Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

  10. On the 911 tape Zimmerman is asked his address. He is asked his address AFTER he starts to follow (you can hear Zimmerman moving on the tape) and AFTER the dispatcher told him not to follow. He starts to give out his address (gets as far as the house number) then pauses and says he doesn’t want to give it out because he doesn’t know where the kid is at (I took it to mean he didn’t know where the kid was at and didn’t want the kid to hear his address as he searched for him). It’s obvious he is looking for Trayvon and not returning to his truck because he wants the cops to call his cell phone when they get there. I think Zimmerman saw Trayvon before he entered the subdivision and that is why Zimmerman’s truck was parked where it was facing north so he could see when Trayvon entered. Zimmerman was lying in wait for Trayvon, not so much as thinking he was going to kill the kid but he was so sure Trayvon was up to no good Zimmerman couldn’t stand it and a terrible killing occurred. As far as we know Zimmerman might have had the gun drawn as he searched for Trayvon. He confronted the kid and the kid started fighting back because he felt his life was in danger. Manslaughter at the very least.

    • Imagine that call “my cell when u get here” I gonna commit a crime and instruct the cops to let me know when they arrive. what an advantage for me. (how clever) how long will it take to roll around on the ground with this teen shot him then answer the phone. ok here I am he tried to kill me. lets put him in the back of the car and take him to the morgue. ok

    • I was wrong about the first part – paranoia about giving out his address – because I didn’t hear the uncut call until 3/31. The redacted call I had been listening to didn’t mention the part about GZ being concerned TM would hear his address. What a weird ass concern as I mention in a comment below.

    • As far as the gun being drawn, I believe that’s exactly what GZ did. You can hear what seems to sound like a magazine clip going in. Sounds like it gets stuck and GZ starts hitting or tapping on something; he is still on with dispatcher as he does all of this.

      As far as the kid fighting back, well that’s been disputed by the funeral home director who transported the body back to Miami. He said there was nothing on Trayvon’s body that showed he had been in a fight; meaning no scratches, scars, bruises, etc. He only saw the scar from the bullet wound.

      If the ME’s report reflects the same, that would explain why the charge is 2nd degree murder and not manslaugter.

      • If you have never handled a gun much maybe that’s what you might imagine it sounds like, but the KelTec is polymer frame with a steel magazine, and no one carries an unloaded weapon.

        The clicking sounds seem to be something tapping against the cellphone case, I suspect probably a jacket zipper or maybe earring.

        • Thank you for reviewing the blog posting and commenting. If a jacket zipper or earring is responsible for the noise, I would speculate it would have been heard before this point in Zimmerman’s call. You never know though. Hence, I’ve never definitively speculated as to what caused the noises heard.

      • Hi Gun Pro,

        YOU STATED: “If you have never handled a gun much maybe that’s what you might imagine it sounds like……….”

        ==========================================

        MY REPLY:

        Or it may be due to the fact we’re a family that consist of licensed gun brokers who have owned gun shops for over 60 years.

        T. G.

    • Jon,

      I totally agree. When the story first broke, my first impression was that something must have occurred before Trayvon went to the store. Maybe he saw Trayvon as he headed to the store while there must have still been some type of daylight because he gives such a detail description of Trayon’s demeanor and clothing, right down to the button on his shirt, and the color of his shoes.

      Subsequent news reports state Trayvon was a regular visitor at his dad’s fiance’s home, and often played with the other children in the area where she lived. Just don’t believe that was his first time going to the 7-11. This makes me believe he must have seen him before, perhaps not during early evening hours, but surely during the daytime.

      I don’t believe the story Zimmerman, Sr. told about his son was on his way to Target, especially since he said that AFTER SPD had said GZ was on watch duty.

      Also agree, the truck was facing north because he gives a very detailed description of what Trayvon was wearing, considering it was raining.

      I strongly believe he was preparing his gun as he told the dispatcher he didn’t want to give out his address because he didn’t know where the kid was. If you listen to that portion of the call, you will hear tapping, clicking, and knocking sounds, which to me, sounds like a clip being put in. I know it’s just a theory, but I think it is very possible that he was preparing for the “hunt”.

      I certainly wouldn’t follow a person I deem suspicious, hands in waistband, looking like their on drugs or something, coming towards me, without some type of back up, i.e. stick, bottle, gun, etc., especially if I had already purposed in my mind I’m going to follow them, and was not going to wait for the police or wait where I was instructed to wait.

  11. How did you determine where Zimmerman parked and where Trayvon’s father lived?

    How does this scenario sound:

    Trayvon begins running along the path you describe, then hides somewhere. Zimmerman follows, leaving his truck at the last curve in the road. When he gets between the buildings he can’t see Trayvon and begins walking back to his truck. Then Trayvon emerges from hiding and a confrontation takes place.

    • Zimmerman was parked near the mailboxes and cut through.

      It was Trayvon Martin’s father’s (Tracy Martin) girlfriend’s address.

      I don’t think Trayvon mentioned hiding when speaking with his girlfriend. The truck had to be parked between the buildings near the sidewalk I believe. Well, that is, if Zimmerman’s story adds up.

  12. Pingback: Trayvon Martin case: Video released, backstory revealed, so many questions | The Hinky Meter

  13. Listen to GZ on the 911 call. He has trouble telling the dispatcher where the police should go. He can’t describe the entrance to the development. He gives the wrong address to the clubhouse (111 vs 1111). A lot of uh’s, turn left, no don’t turn left ect. He lives here and has been very active in patrolling the development but he can’t tell dispatch where his truck is and can’t give accurate directions. In my opinion, the way he is talking suggests that either he (1)has a mental imparement or (2) may be under the influence but no tox testing was done by police.

    After dispatch tells him not to pursue, he acknowledges with an “ok” but does not to go back to his truck..

    A 911 caller says that she sees a person in a white t shirt on top of a person on the ground. Some reports interpet this as TM on top of GZ. This is probably the police officer who was giving cpr to TM because she sees this when she looks out her back window after the shooting had occured. I would like to know what uniform police were wearing that night.

    • Seriously? Look, I am all for letting both stories being told to the Grand Jury and letting them decide. I am not rushing to judgement on either side. But I read your conjecture and am dumbfounded. First regarding your points. Have you ever been under stress? Regardless of whether he was right or wrong, GZ was under stress, this does not make him either 1) mentally impaired or 2) under the influence. If he was looking for TM (note I did not say pursuing) could account for him not returning to this truck. Or perhaps he was pursuing him, I am not sure, nor will I jump to conclusions. Lastly (on your points), Maybe it was a police officer or maybe it was TM. The 911 call should reveal it as you say “sees,” meaning close proximity and you would hear the gunshot.
      Regarding the original story up top, I would like to know how this individual deduced GZs path. Why couldn’t he have followed TMs path? He was following him after all. Creatively writing is a great way to make your point, but doesn’t necessarily lend credence to your investigative skills. To be a good investigator, you have to see both sides.

      • Why would Zimmerman chase Trayvon using the exact same path? There’s no chance he’d catch up. Instead, as suggested in the 911 tape, Zimmerman believed Trayvon was running toward the back entrance and decided to cut him off though the operator told him to stop following the suspect.

        Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about GZ not following the same path as TM before the operator tells him to stop pursuing the teen).

      • He had no right and no reason to go looking for Martin. We know he was pursuing the kid from the girlfriend.

      • Errr… Exactly why would GZ be under stress? Sitting in his truck, knowing that his “job” is done, finished when he reports to the police, exactly what is there for him to be stressed about?

    • No actually the police report states that CPR was conducted when officer amya the second cop on scene conducted it. I have a problem with the fact the first cop didn’t place the handcuffs on Z and then conducted CPR. Also witness said when figure got up he had his hand in his forehead and acted confused. Actually 2 different witnesses said that. The recent wit said it was a Hispanic guy. Now perhaps in the dark gz T-shirt under the jacket could be

      • Mistaken. White shirt is not the same as a grey hoodie . I am confused about all of that. The mom of the 14 year old said the color of the shirt was suggested during an interview. Nowhere in the call with the boy was a red shirt mentioned. Also how is o.e slot in the chest while on top of the shooter and end up on his stomach? Gz clearly had no blood on his shirt and it was not mentioned in the report.

      • Good one 504miami

        Martin could have landed on his chest if GZ rolled him off when he got up. But there is no way, I mean NO WAY you can shoot someone in the chest while they are on top of you and not get any blood on you.

        Of course, it would not surprise me if the police allowed GZ to clean up before they took him in. We can’t have teh judge’s boy looking like a criminal now can we?

        • Thanks for the comments! I’d like to see surveillance video from inside the cop car. You’re right – there’s no way that blue undershirt would have been blood free if he shot upwards into Trayvon’s chest.

      • You make some good points and observations. The first ranking cop on the scene was Sgt. Anthony Raimondo. He was previously involved in a cover-up that involved a fellow cops son. It went unnoticed until a video surfaced on the internet.

        Justin Collison is the son of Lt. Chris Collison. Justin beat a homeless black man, Sherman Ware, into unconsciousness. Mr. Ware also suffered from a broken nose as a result of the attack.

        Regarding the white t-shirt, I would not be surprised at all if it were discovered the guy they call “John” had something more to do it.

        Question for you. Did you notice at the end of Zimmerman’s call there’s what sounds like low voices or whispers, and some knocking on something?

        Zimmerman is no longer speaking with the dispatcher but the dispatcher is still on the line because you can hear regular background noises as heard on all the witnesses calls. Just like you hear the background noises in witnesses home.

        http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/police-lieutenants-son-investigated-attacking-homeless-man/story?id=12507834

    • The female caller says in the 911 call that she saw a person wearing a white t-shirt before calling 911. She his the 2nd 911 caller that night. She is actually the 1st one seeing the 1st officer Timothy Smith coming in. She is also the one telling the dispatcher that the officer actually has to go to the back of her house rather than the front.

      Therefore, the person wearing a white t-shirt cannot be police of rescue.

      She also is the only person seeing a white t-shirt. TM has a dark gray hoodie and I have no idea what he was wearing under it (possibly a white t-shirt). GZ had a red jacket and we can see that a had a light gray t-shirt under it.

      • Here is the transcript of the 2nd female witness who saw the white t-shirt.

        Dispatcher: “So, when you heard screaming, it was a male screaming?”
        Caller: “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.”
        Dispatcher: “What do you mean guy on top? Did you see a fight?”
        Caller: “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.”
        Dispatcher: “A white t-shirt. Did you see what kind of pants? He was on top of what?”
        Caller: “I couldn’t see the person he was on.”
        Dispatcher: “But he was on top of a person?”
        Caller: “Yes.”
        Dispatcher: “The guy with the white t-shirt, did he get up and run?”
        Caller: “I don’t know. Went to the phone to call you”

  14. In the third comment above (from tchoupi.caillou), he says the 7:16 911 caller says she sees a white t-shirt(TM) on top of red shirt (GZ). Where can I find that recording. On the 911 call I heard, the only mention of a person with a white t-shirt on top of the body comes from a caller seeing that after the shooting happened and police were on the scene.

    • You can get all of the records from Sanford Police here:

      http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

      Actually the 911 caller (a female) explains after the shooting what she saw before calling 911. here is the transcript:

      Dispatcher: “So, when you heard screaming, it was a male screaming?”
      Caller: “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.”
      Dispatcher: “What do you mean guy on top? Did you see a fight?”
      Caller: “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.”
      Dispatcher: “A white t-shirt. Did you see what kind of pants? He was on top of what?”
      Caller: “I couldn’t see the person he was on.”
      Dispatcher: “But he was on top of a person?”
      Caller: “Yes.”
      Dispatcher: “The guy with the white t-shirt, did he get up and run?”
      Caller: “I don’t know. Went to the phone to call you

      • The records show the following:
        GZ 911 call indicates TM has a dark gray hoodie at 7:10 while walking along Twin Trees Ln
        Witness 911 call indicates TM has a white t-shirt at 7:16 while on top of GZ
        Police report indicates TM has a gray sweater when found dead on the back path

        It was really dark that night so the witness may have got the color wrong. but yet, I find it more difficult to see a red color in the dark than a white color.

  15. Guys,

    There is no question TM didn’t run or even walked straight to his Fathers. The reason is timing. According to googlemap, it takes 3min to go from the main entrance to the back entrance. GZ called 911 at 7:09. TM starts running at 7:11. He could have been home at most at 7:14. He was shot dead at 7:17 half way from GZ’s car and home.
    Therefore, TM opt to hide. I don’t particularly mean tat he stayed put at some spot near the place of his killing, he was probably walking between houses and so, making his way home longer. According to TM’s GF, TM said he lost GZ which suggests indeed that not being followed was his priority.

    There is no question GZ never followed TM by car. He clearly said police that he was parked in the cut through (that is Twin Tree road) pass the mailboxes.
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?”
    Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and
    then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.” [3’10”]
    Furthermore, in GZ’s 911 log, at 2’08” GZ says “He’s running” then we can hear the trucks warnings typical of someone opening the driver’s door while leaving headlights on or keys on. This is when he left his car and started chasing TM. The dispatcher clearly understood what was going on and asked GZ to stop this.

    There is no question GZ was not willing to wait for police at the mailboxes.
    911 dispatcher: “OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then?” [3’42”]
    Zimmerman: “Yeah, that’s fine.” [3’43”]
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …”
    Zimmerman: “Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?”[3:49]
    911 dispatcher: “OK, that’s no problem.”

    There is no question TM quickly lost GZ.
    #1
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, sir, what is your name?” [2’34”] (7:11pm-7:12pm)
    Zimmerman: “George. He ran.”
    #2
    Phone logs show TM calling his GF at 7:12.
    #3
    TM’s GF account of the events: “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,”

    I see no other possibility but TM hiding to explain the timing. GZ’s side will claim he was preparing his attack. TM’s will claim that he was hiding for safety.

    • Trayvon Martin lost George Zimmerman. When you lose somebody, you don’t have intentions of going to find that person again. I’m not sure how long it would take to get from the cut through near the clubhouse/mailboxes to the murder scene. I plan to time these distances out within the next few days. Other than GZ’s 911 call, I’m not sure when TM started running. Why would TM being running past a car parked in idle near the clubhouse and mailboxes?

      If Zimmerman didn’t move the car from the mailboxes near the clubhouse and cut through, then I’m not sure how Trayvon could have attacked him near his truck as was stated in the police report.

      • There is no way TM would attack GZ near his truck parked on Twin Trees Ln and end up fighting in the back path.

        My evaluation suggests that it takes about 1min to go from GZ’s truck to the crime scene. Below are the facts I’m based upon.

        Police records (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) show the 1st officer arrives on scene at 7:17. But, he actually arrives at the GZ’s truck as initially arranged.

        This is correlated by one 911 caller:

        Caller: “I see police now.” [1’06”] (she called at 7:16pm)
        Dispatcher: “You see the officer?”
        Caller: “Yeah, but like it’s behind the house. There is a dead body there. It’s not the front entrance. Oh, my God.”
        Dispatcher: “Please tell me so I can tell them.”
        Caller: “If you are looking at my house, it’s behind by my back porch.”

        It took the officer about a minute to reach the crime scene as evidenced by another 911 call (she called at 7:17pm):

        Dispatcher: “You are not the only person calling. We have more than one officer on the scene and another on the way.”
        Caller: “Oh, my God. I see the person now. I see him walking. [0’45”]
        There’s a man coming out and people coming out with flashlights. Oh, my God. I don’t know what he did to this person. I can see there is a man walking out with a flashlight right now.”

        The man with the flashlight can only be the 1st police officer (Ayala Ricardo) since his report indicates no other individual at the crime scene.

        So, it took about 1min for the police officer to rush from the mailboxes or from GZ’s truck to the crime scene. We have to keep in mind that the officer may have drove part of the way and must have spend some time parking and exiting his vehicle.

      • Just a correction there: The 1st officer is Timothy Smith. Ayala Ricardo is actually the 2nd officer.

      • I would say that TM was hiding and didnt go to his father’s house because there was no one home. Reports indicate the father and the girlfriend went out for dinner. He didnt want GZ to know where he lived seeing as he was being stalked and may have felt safer out in the open then being followed into and cornered in an empty house

          • Yes, didn’t he have a younger brother who would have been there alone? If so, all the more reason not to head directly home. Remember those “Criminal Minds” and other tv shows? They often show people, inadvertently leading killers etc., to their homes and what can possibly happen.

            One thing is very clear, GZ from TM’s perspective, was not acting the way any normal person would. From the tone of the messages GZ gives the police, I can only imagine him scowling evilly in dreadful silence as TM goes past his car. GZ may not have been aware of it, or perhaps he did so on purpose, either way he wasn’t sending any “I’m your friendly neighborhood watcher”, messages TM’s way.

    • And some will wonder why he’d hide instead of running home when he was so close. But imagine TM’s mindset… He has NO idea who this guy is. He’s probably seen enough stalker/serial killer movies to get the idea that leading a killer straight to his family would be a very bad idea. In hindsight, maybe he should have run home. But then I think we’d be talking about him being killed trying to open his back door, which might have been, in GZs mind, him trying to break in.

    • GZ told the dispatcher to have the cops call him when they got there. Doesn’t that mean he was no longer at his truck? He told them to come straight in, swing a left and his truck was right there. But he told the dispatch to have the cops call him instead. If he was in his truck, he would have seen them coming in and flagged them down. But he wasn’t in his truck. He was out hunting for TM.

      I believe TM lost GZ, Then GZ started walking looking for him. TM thought he lost him and came around the corner and GZ was standing there, out of breath from walking.

      At that point, TM asked him why was he following him.

  16. What Happened to Trayvon Martin’s Dark Grey Hoodie?

    On Feb., 26th 2012, between 7:09pm & 7:16pm, four persons saw Trayvon Martin alive. Two of the four described how he was dressed.

    The first witness is George Zimmerman himself. In his 911 call placed at 7:09pm we can hear him say:
    “Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring.” [00’42”]
    “He’s got something on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.” [01’12”]

    The second witness is from the female witness that called at 7:16 and started her call with “There’s someone screaming outside.”. That witness says:
    “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.” [03’10”]
    “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.” [3’18”]

    The other two witnesses who haven’t described (to the best of my knowledge) how TM was dressed are:
    1) The famous Joe who saw GZ in red laying on the grass and TM on top of him. He is the person who claims GZ was the one crying.
    2) The 14yo kid who was walking his dog at 7:16. He saw a man on the ground.

    It is clear that at some point around 7:16, TM was on top of GZ. But still, what happened to his Dark Grey Hoodie?

    I have a theory that requires taking into accounts the first persons to talk to GZ after TM’s killing: Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora.
    The interesting part in their account of the event is (from Mary Cutcher): “Zimmerman was standing over the body with — basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon’s back.”

    Is it possible that GZ grabbed TM by his hoodie, pulling it off and therefore triggering the fight? Then, what Mary Cutcher would have seen is GZ putting it back to hide that event. After all GZ straddeling TM is rather disturbing. If GZ indeed grabbed TM’s hoodie it would do 2 things: 1) explain how TM’s call to his girlfriend ended, and 2) more importantly prove that GZ started a fight je would not win without his gun.

    • Is it possible that GZ took his jacket off before/during the scuffle and he was the one on top of TM?

      • GZ had on a light blue t-shirt under his jacket. Light blue is a lot closer to white than dark grey. If the red jacket was on the ground and they were wresting on top of it – that could also explain some of the eyewitness accounts that a person in white was on top of a person in red .. if TM was laying on top of the jacket GZ had taken off

  17. I would like to know how you deduced GZs path. Why couldn’t he have followed TMs path? He was following him after all. Creatively writing is a great way to make your point, but doesn’t necessarily lend credence to your investigative skills. To be a good investigator, you have to see both sides. Such as, what if he was attempting to follow down the sidewalk but with TM’s head start, TM actually made it past the first building on the sidewalk and hid between the buildings where you say GZ entered the crime scene. Then as GZ made his way down the sidewalk, TM came out and confronted GZ and the incident ensued?
    I don’t know what happened. I won’t convict GZ from mediocre theory in the media. Nor will I portray TM as nothing but an innocent victim. I think I will wait for the evidence.
    By the way, I spent 23.5 years as a criminal investigator. I have a little knowledge in this area, but admittedly do not know all the details of this case.
    Oh, as far as replacing the hoodie theory, No possible way. forensics are way beyond that. If the hoodie was off before the shot…no hole. if after the shot, blood smears inside when taking off and replacing. Why would he hide the fact that there was a struggle? That is his own defense.
    AND, How do you summize that GZ grabbing TMs hoodie means 1) that would have caused the call to TMs GF to end? and 2) “prove” that GZ started a fight he “would not win without his gun?” Who said he wouldn’t win without his gun?

    I wish Trayvon were alive to fill in the blanks.

    • Why would Zimmerman chase Trayvon using the exact same path? There’s no chance he’d catch up. Instead, as suggested in the 911 tape, Zimmerman believed Trayvon was running toward the back entrance and decided to cut him off.

      Unless, that is, GZ was chasing TM down from behind in his truck. The fight supposedly started when GZ was attacked while going back to his truck. So, his truck was near the shooting. The shooting was not near a street…at all.

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman not following the same path as Trayvon).

      • How do you know that he was trying to catch him. Maybe he was just trying to keep in visual range of the suspect. The best way to do that would be to follow Trayvon’s path.

        • Was Zimmerman told to stop following Trayvon? He could have kept a “visual” – even though nobody wanted him to – by looking down the sidewalk from the “T” until the police got there.

    • I agree with Bruce that the hoodie hypothesis is nothing but an …

      The phone call ended following a push that made it fall according to TM’s GF. So, if you follow her account of events, something made it fall off. I was just proposing that it could be the hoodie being pulled off.

      BTW, the phone call placed by TM to his GF isn’t just a claim from the said GF as ABCnews had obtained the phone logs that shows the GF received and answered to that call (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV).

      I agree that there is a possibility that TM went on to hiding to confront GZ later on. That would suggest TM was planning it. Moreover, doing it in the dark back path would add to the idea that TM may have been willing to hurt badly.

      Nevertheless, I don’t understand what would be TM’s goals in planning an attack on GZ. And planning this while calling your GF is even more disturbing.

      The same way, I don’t believe GZ was planning to kill TM. I believe, that it was an accident. However, I believe that GZ’s anger and frustrations, as demonstrated by his own call to police, made him make that mistake. GZ was 100% sure TM was one of these criminals that had to go to jail. He had one right in front of him, and he knew a police officer was coming. So, he just had to stop TM for a few minutes. But things went horribly wrong.

      Why? Because TM was just walking back home when he noticed that perfect stranger was stalking him. So, TM turned suspicious of GZ’s intentions. I mean, who wouldn’t be suspicious of a stranger following you in the street at night under the rain?

      You end up with two persons in total distrust going face-to-face with one of the two having a gun. The perfect storm…

      • Hey tchoupi.caillou,

        This is the first time I’m reading these comments on the site and not via the WordPress panel so I’m just now realizing you’re the “one” making a TON of excellent points. Thank you for your contributions!

        Quick question: After hanging up, why don’t you think GZ pursued TM in his truck? He told the operator that the police could call him insinuating that he wouldn’t be at the mailboxes anymore. If GZ pursued TM by truck to the shooting scene – GZ said he was originally attacked while getting back into his truck – he is SCREWED.

      • Thanks for the compliment. I’m building a more and more detailed analysis of the records. I just try to stick to what is on the records.

        To answer to your question. There is little way to know what GZ did before, during and after the 911 call, and there at this point even less ways we can track TM’s path mostly after the 911 call.

        Maybe phone location records if any would bring some light to that. Hopefully, some persons may have seen TM or GZ walking prior to the confrontation but paid no attention to it as most normal people would do.

        So, there is only so much you can do with what we’ve got from the 911 calls.
        If we believe GZ, at 7:09, TM was near the club house. GZ was able to give great details of how TM was dressed. Think of it, he saw the buttons on his shirt while no one would see the color of the shirts of the individuals within 20yards.

    • GZ might have won a fight without his gun. But I’ve never met a person who had a conceal and carry license that didn’t carry it with him into every situation legally possible, particularly if there’s a possibility of trouble.

  18. For the people saying it should have took TM 3 minutes to get home, I remember George saying that TM was stopping to stand under the awnings to get out of the rain. I think it was GZ who said it.

    • Unless Zimmerman pursued Trayvon by car (stalker?) even though he was told not to pursue him at all and just wait for the cops to show up.

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon in his truck).

      • Yeah, maybe. But that wouldn’t make much sense unless he was drunk or insane. Either one is a possibility.

        Using the shortest possible distance, how far is it from the curb closest to the sidewalk leading in between the houses to where Martin died?

  19. According to TV today GZ arrived at the police dept at 7:51 at which time as we all saw all the gushing blood and all signs of his brutal beating had miraculously disappeared. So when did they have time to clean up all that between 7:17 and 7:51, not that I trust everything I see on TV but I believe it was on the Ed Show.

    • Yeah, I find it weird that Zimmerman’s fatal shot didn’t result in blood covering his jacket, shirt, body, etc. No matter how much they cleaned him up at the scene, the cops should have been wearing gloves if there was blood present at the station.

      • It would not shock me at all if they had allowed him to change clothes before going in to the station. Sanford police don’t appear to be the best at this solving murders thing.

  20. One thing I don’t understand is why people seem to be forgetting that Trayvon had a right to stand his ground as much as Zimmerman claims he was. It is known that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon. You cannot pursue someone and then claim self defense if that person puts up a fight.

    If Trayvon got a good punch in, he had every right too.

    Anyway, I read that Trayvon’s father thought that maybe he went to a cousin’s house or something when he didn’t come right back. He assumed Trayvon would be back in a while, so he went to bed. The kid was 17, so that doesn’t seem odd to me.

    He realized when he woke up the next morning that Trayvon had not come home.

    That’s what I read.

    • I agree fully! TM had to think this dude was a kidnapper or something. Especially if GZ was off roading* in his truck between the buildings.

      * I believe GZ said the fight started as he was just about to get back into his truck. The fight ended where it started. So, the truck must have been nearby which means it was in between buildings and not on the street?

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman off-roading).

      • If he was off roading and it was raining, you would expect to see tracks on the grass.

  21. i think zimmerman watched trayvon walk and followed him in his car. trayvon told the girl on the phone he was being followed, how would he have known unless zimmerman was tailing him in the car. At one point trayvon ran, probably when he left the road (the road turns right, he veered left on the footpath). Not being able to go any further in the car zimmerman got out and that is where he lost sight of trayvon. Now trayvon probably didn’t want to lead some crazy to his house so instead of turning right and going behind the houses, your map shows the path also goes straight and comes out onto a road. Trayvon possibly ran there (he would be fast and zimmerman probably wasn’t even out of the truck yet so didn’t see which route he took). Trayvon told the girl he thought he lost him, zimmerman probably ran up the path and went right to behind the houses and kept going until he gave up, turned around and was heading back up the path on his way back to his car. Now that trayvon thinks the coast is clear he is heading back up the path he took and they probably met up right on the corner where they fought and trayvon was shot. It makes sense that they were facing each other and that no one came up from behind because trayvon questioned him. Now i would assume that this would only happen if their eyes met. Trayvon wanted to get away, george wanted to follow at a distance and now here they are face to face and words were exchanged. That sounds plausible to me, and would explain the time lost.
    Also the father had gone out for dinner that night and probably wasn’t back yet when all this was going on close to his home. He said when trayvon wasn’t there he thought he was with a cousin he had been spending time with.

    cheers and thanks for the map it is very interesting.

  22. and i don’t believe george was justified in pulling the trigger. I’ve woken up after a bad dream with worse injuries than he is sporting, and see how when they got him out the police car and he casually leans against the wall…doesn’t look distraught to me. It’s not ok to stalk someone and then shoot them when the put up a fight.

  23. I think the whole wannabe cop thing is a farce- like the man who gained entry to his woman victim’s house dressed as a fireman.or the child molester who is a teacher or similar situations. I believe Zimmerman saw TM going to the store. and stalked him w intent GZ new the neighborhood and who lived there TM didn’t (GZ’s advantage). GZpulled the clever phone call to add to his cop cover). ambushed TM between the bldgs. rolled around on the ground with him TM cried out loud for help GZ shut him up as planned. Then, the body mysteriously silently makes it to the morgue. where it lay for 3 days. WHo took it there? there is a missing person report the nxt day same pct small neighboorhood yet no one said hey what about that kid we took to the morgue last nite found 1 block from where the teen was reported missing. Big time cover up. full autopsy need. crime scene investigation needed. Investigation of GZ’s home needed. How did that body get to the morgue w/o noticing and Y.
    Wouldn’t the neighborhood buzz be “Hey a kid was found dead out here last nite nobody knows who he is.

  24. Your map IS wrong, as many people have told you, and you will likely refuse to change it based on the facts of the discussion between GZ & 911 Dispatch which I will point out. Nevertheless, the first error is your assumption that GZ was parked basically beside the clubhouse, which is located immediately inside the community’s main gate. GZ REPEATEDLY states the officer’s would need to come in through the gate, PAST the clubhouse, and continue to the left. GZ also stated at least once that he was at the “cutoff”. He stated the officers should come straight in the entrance, go past the clubhouse and make a left. He stated that he was parked at the cut-through which is where the officers should look for his truck. The cut-through is where the sidewalk cuts through from Twin Tree to Retreat View Cr. GZ was probably parked about where the car is shown parked at that corner on your map – NOT where you indicate he was parked.

    Secondly – GZ being parked at the corner, stated TM was staring at him, then that he was coming toward him. Shortly after he ask the dispatcher to get an officer out there quickly (indicating again that he felt insecure where he was), he stated TM had taken off running. After a secondary delay, audible alarms from the inside of an automobile are heard, likely as GZ exits his vehicle, and then the sounds of GZ running. As it has been stated, GZ runs for approximately 8 seconds, which probably put him near the Retreat View Cr side of the cut-off.

    GZ was on his way back to his truck, and was refusing to state his address out loud as he walked through that “no-man’s land”, between the two north-south units south of the cut-off, in my opinion.

    He was asked to give his home address, and stated he did not want to give that info because he didn’t know where the kid was, indicating he was still outside – not pursuing TM, but probably going back to his truck. GZ indicates he plans to return to his home, by telling dispatch to have police call him when they arrive and he will tell them where he is – obviously believing that he would make it to the safety of his home by the time they arrived, and would then be able to provide them with his address.

    And in fact, that GZ had returned to his truck or was very near to doing so is evidenced by news videos of the crime scene, which shows TM lying dead on the north side of the northernmost north-south building on Twin Tree and within view of the Twin Tree side of the cut-off. Additionally, several of the callers who stated they lived on the Retreat View Cr. side of the complex stated it was in their back yard. The police report states they were called to 1231 Twin Tree.

    This supports GZ’s story that he was confronted (from behind) by TM as he neared his truck, and the investigation’s conclusion that TM initiated the physical struggle that ended his life, and that GZ was “standing his ground”. This probable scenario is further affirmed by at least one witness’ statement that TM (the guy in the white shirt) was on top of the other person. It also completely destroys the media’s contention and the possible they and the Martin family are proffering to the public that GZ “hunted TM down”.

    Had GZ hunted TM down, he would have had his gun out, or in the very least, at the ready in his pocket with his hand in his pocket. That he was not expecting TM to follow him back to his truck is the obvious conclusion one MUST reach, because not only was GZ struck from behind (sucker punched) but he was obviously on the losing end of a physical fight/wrestling match for some period of time – long enough for TWO witnesses to see TM on top of GZ. One person (child) who says he/she heard people arguing/fighting outside, that he/she looked out and saw the person with the white shirt on top of someone else, and that he closed the door and got the telephone to call 911. The other male teen who witnessed the white-shirted person on top of the other male, had to chase his dog, or would have helped. So GZ obviously did not have access to his gun for a lengthy period, and instead was yelling for help repeatedly. It was originally thought that TM was the person heard calling for help – and his parents even claimed that such was the case – but it has since been revealed that GZ was the one yelling for help.

    If TM was being “hunted” down, he could have gone into his home after initially eluding GZ, but instead, he phoned his girlfriend and bragged to her about his escape, and when she begged him to keep running from GZ, he scoffed at the suggestion and stated he wasn’t going to run – he was gonna find out what GZ’s problem was. So after eluding GZ, TM followed him back to his truck, confronted him as revealed by GZ’s friend earlier this week, sucker punched him, and was on top of him pounding GZ’s head into the sidewalk when two different people witnessed the ongoing fight.

    So this IS undoubtedly an issue of self-defense, and GZ should NOT be charged with anything, UNLESS the gun he carried or his carrying of same was in any way unlawful.

    My next comments regard the contention that the video of GZ arriving at the PD for questioning shows GZ wasn’t injured, and therefore a claim of self-defense by him is invalid. Regardless what anyone THINKS they can tell from that video, and regardless a complete lack of injuries on GZ’s person (a position that flies in the face of police reports and paramedics’ statements), GZ was, at a point immediately preceding the shot which killed TM, being held on the ground by a person he did not know, who was at the very least, attempting to seriously injure or kill him – there are witnesses to this fact. GZ is heard screaming for help – in at least one 911 call, and several witnesses’/reporting parties’ statements to 911 dispatch confirm that someone was hollering for help. While many of the ear-witnesses assumed that because the hollering stopped when the shot was fired, the person who was shot was the person who had been hollering. We know now that was not the case. Obviously by being in a position of the attacked – not of the attacker – GZ had every right to stand his ground and should face no charges – the video from a distance is an indicator of nothing more than GZ arriving at the PD in cuffs. I am certain there are close-up photos of his injuries, the back of his jacket and the front of his shirt which support his version of events.

    To people who have attempted to twist the truth, and to portray TM as an innocent, small, scared boy who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, shame on you.

    One final comment – in the recollection of the final call between TM and his girlfriend, note that TM nor his girlfriend said anything about being near his home – or the home of his father and his father’s fiancee, for that matter. The girlfriend in fact doesn’t advise TM to get in his house as quickly as possible – she advises him to run away – get out of that neighborhood.

    It is some time before the family of TM is heard from –
    The incident occurred February 26.
    TM and GZ were both id’ed by PD on Feb 27.
    PD stated on Feb 29 that TM was visiting friends of the family for the week in Sanford. NOTHING about visiting friends in that gated community and certainly NOTHING about his father’s fiancee or his father living in that community. This leads me to believe the family was unaware of his whereabouts prior to and the day of the shooting.

    on March 8, EIGHT DAYS after the explanation of TM’s presence in Sanford by the PD, TM’s father holds a press conference in Orlando, asking that GZ be arrested and charged with murder. He states TM was visiting family members in Sanford. HE says NOTHING about having a fiancee who lived in that community, let alone living there himself.

    On March 10, TM’s family goes to the Sanford PD and asks that GZ be arrested. This is almost two full weeks after the death of TM. On that day, they tell the media that TM was unarmed and was walking back from a convenience store after buying some Skittles and something to drink. NOTHING IS SAID OF FAMILY MEMBERS LIVING IN THE GATED COMMUNITY, OR EVEN IN SANFORD, FOR THAT MATTER.

    On March 14, the media begins to report that TM was walking to his father’s home in the gated community.

    On March 16, the media reports that TM’s family claims he was returning to “a relative’s house” from the store.

    On March 19, the media reports that TM was returning to his father’s fiancee’s home in the gated community when the incident occurred.

    NO name or address of any person related to TM has been provided to the media, and the conclusion must be made that no relative or family member lived in the gated community. Which leads to the conclusion that TM had no legitimate business being in the gated community. The family’s constantly changing explanation of TM’s presence in the gated community is unfounded, and has been utilized to promote the notion that an innocent, unarmed young kid was murdered when in fact a hoodlum who thought he could intimidate a potential witness by physically assaulting him learned the hard way that some people carry guns to protect themselves, their homes and their communities.

    • Damn this is a lot to respond to – give me a few days – but, I stand by my map’s assertion that George’s car was parked by the mailboxes next to the clubhouse near the “cut through.”

      What’s wrong with your analysis that Zimmerman was talking about the “cut through” closer to where the murder occurred?

      1) Zimmerman said he was parked near the mailboxes during the 911 call. When asked for the address, he indicated that he was near a “cut through” and couldn’t see any numbers on the homes but the clubhouse at 111 (sic) Retreat Circle Drive was close enough. HOWEVER, since he would have been surrounded by houses, Zimmerman would have DEFINITELY been able to see street numbers on neighboring homes if parked near the more eastwardly “cut through” that you assume.

      2) Zimmerman couldn’t have seen Trayvon “acting suspicious” (by trying to avoid the rain by ducking under the clubhouse’s awnings) if he was parked near the “cut through” that was closer to the murder scene and further from clubhouse as you assume.

      3) Lastly, the post office won’t approve community mailboxes in inconvenient places where their workers need to get out of their vehicles to deliver the mail and there’s no sign of mailboxes by the street corner/cross walk near the “cut through” you’re assuming.

      You’ve been served! I’ll get to the other stuff later.

      Update: See map above regarding Zimmerman’s truck’s location.

    • A) The reason Zimmerman didn’t want to give out his address is not because Trayvon was still in his vicinity and would have heard it. If that’s what you’re assuming, you just lost any/all credibility.

      B) Why do you think Zimmerman was in a hurry to get home BEFORE the cops showed up? He didn’t give his home phone number of (407) 878-6007. Instead, he gave his cellphone number of (407) 435-4200. Shouldn’t Zimmerman have just waited a minute or two for the police to show up to the mailboxes near the clubhouse? Yes, but he wanted to play hero and pursue this “suspicious looking black guy that looks like he’s on drugs or something.”

      C) Where did you see/read/hear this: “Is evidenced by news videos of the crime scene, which shows TM lying dead on the north side of the northernmost north-south building on Twin Tree and within view of the Twin Tree side of the cut-off.”

      D) Your speculation that Trayvon Martin shouldn’t have been in the gated community is crazy. Like 9/11 Truther/Tim McVeigh crazy. Google: Tracy Martin’s girlfriend’s name. You’ll find it and then you’ll find her permanent residence is within that gated community.

    • LaneLowe,

      You fail big time on that one.

      The biggest of all is the latest assertion that TM had no business of being in that community. Apparently, you’re one of the last person on hearth not knowing the address of his father’s GF.

      The location of GZ’s truck isn’t clear because GZ isn’t clear in his 911 call.
      I mean, he has been patrolling the subdivision for years and he can’t tell the name of the street he is in while there are only 3. He also keeps on telling police to go straight past the club house, make a left and past the mailboxes while the proper sequence is to go straight past the club house and mailboxes and then make a left.

      All that said, thanks for your opinion about what GZ meant with cut-through. I think it is a valid point and it would place the truck near the southward curb. it would also mean that GZ was actually following TM by car from the club house to the curb which in itself is stalking (a form of aggression).

      I agree with you that GZ feared for his safety. It is clear when he gave away his address. His distrust of TM is actually clear all along the 911 call. My questions to you is : What is the ground for that fear?
      I’ll give you a hint. My daughter turns irrational when she sees a spider. I end up being forced to kill it to bring her back to reason. Her doctor may say that she suffers from arachnoPHOBIA.

    • LaneLowe: Your analysis still doesn’t make sense to me but, for what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com.

    • I owe you an apology regarding A).

      I just listened to the uncut 911 tape and Zimmerman is indeed afraid somebody would hear him give out his address. Jesus this guy is crazy. Like the last thing a “black guy on drugs or something” would remember hearing is 1950 Retreat View Circle.

  25. The Teenage Problem with Authority:

    When I was TM’s age, from my mid-late teens, it could be said that I like a lot of male teens was prone to spiting authority.

    Let me clarify.

    By all indicators, I was a polite and respectful young man. I got good grades, no discipline problems in school, and I was generally a good kid who listened to my parents.

    That being said, I was not always agreeable to strangers who felt they had a right to “parent” me or “order” me to do what they wanted. People saying, “You can’t ride your bike/skate here”, or “You can’t be back here” (When I was using a public street passing through, or even someone questioning me who had no visible right to do so.

    I’m not talking about a law enforcement officer or someone of real authority stopping me and me giving attitude, but random adults who feel like they have the right to intervene.

    If I was in TM’s situation, I can see myself if stopped by a fat old man on a power trip asking “who are you, and where are you going, what are you doing here”, anything like that.. I would have problem told him to $#$* off fat man.

    And for GZ who seemingly was just waiting for a conflict to arise – It’s entirely possible a shouting match of threats could arise.

    I can see myself being TM being the kid holding a bottle of tea and a bag of skiddles. A white kid shot for bucking some old fat man or woman pushing their false authority and harassing me, who I ended up calling out and making threats to.. not because I was dangerous but because I was a young male teenager with raging testosterone, who by every day is polite and leads a normal, serene life, but just like GZ, is also looking for the rare opporunity to argue or makefun of an old crotchety adult who thinks they have the right to tell me what to do.

    • Agreed. It sounds like I’ve still got some Teenage Authority issues though because even at my age of 30-35, I would have responded exactly as Trayvon reportedly did. Then again, I’m white and would never have to defend walking home in the rain with some skittles and iced tea.

      • How do you have a clue about how Martin responded to what?
        There is no factual evidence whatsoever, about what happened between the time Zimmerman ended the call with SPD and the first 911 call came in, or the sole eyewitness.

      • Exactly. That’s one reason for the ruckus about SYG. The black community strongly feels this law jeopardizes not only the safety of black males, but their inability to have it used in a fair manner if the race of the victim and subject were the other way around.

        Here’s something else to think about. Now why would a teenager talking on the phone with his sweetheart, off and on all day, right up to the fatal moment, be interested in anything Zimmerman is doing, such as, according to Zimmerman, i.e. “he’s just looking at me, checking me out”. These statements don’t sound at all threatening to me. They sound just like the ones made by a female co-worker who thinks she’s really hot, who in my humble opinion, IS NOT.

        It wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit if it were uncovered Zimmerman has sexually assaulted some black boys, and perhaps other minority children. Allegedly, Zimmerman was raised a strict Catholic, and may have been abused as a child. I know this is just suppositon, but it is probable.

        The police report states Trayon was shot in the chest but found face down. Witnesses say they saw Zimmerman bent down, straddling Trayvon, with his hands on his back or neck; some say standing.

        I really would like to know what could/would have caused Trayvon to be found dead with “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming from his mouth”. You got any clues No Longer?

        Can’t wait for the ME’s report to come out. It’s long overdue. There’s probably a gag order on it until the trial. It’ll be interesting what else it reveals in addition to the bullet wound.

    • I agree AJ. If I were in TM’s shoes, I would have told GM that I was minding my own f’ing business if he would have questioned me. I have no problem with authority and I would have no problem explaining myself to a uniformed officer or someone with the respect to identify him/her self before questioning me. In my past experience, someone is normally up to no good if they are following you and confront you. When I was younger, I was stopped in a neighborhood in Detroit just for riding my bike on a gang rival’s street. If I didn’t talk quick and mention that I meant no harm, I would have been beaten up and tossed in the street. I was also stopped in another neighborhood in Chicago just because I wore a red headband. A car was following me and cut me off to question men. I told them that I was not a gang member and the headband was red because it was the color from my school. In both those incidents, I was confronted by black teenagers as I was a black teenager myself. I can definitely relate to how TM must have felt when he saw the unmarked car following him home. If TM is the thug that the media has made him out to be, it would be totally reasonable for him to fear for his life with someone following him home and the only weapons he has are some skittles and a can of ice tea.

      Since this incident occured, my view on this issue has changed. Like I mentioned before, I probably would have told GZ to leave me alone and go F himself. However, as a black man in America, this situation has showed me that it would probably be more beneficial for me to fully explain myself and to make sure something doesn’t escalate. In the end, life is too short to act like a tough guy especially when there are people like Zimmerman on the streets.

    • This is not an authority issue. At 16 or 17 you nor Trayvon are accountable to any random adult that approaches you on the street. According to the girlfriend Zimmerman never identified himself-even the police have to do that-when asked. Even with the police you have the right to remain silent per my friend who is a federal judge. Trayvon did everything right and still got shot.

      • Psychologist:

        I totally agree. Especially when you consider the fact, the confessed murderer admitted he physically assaulted ATF LEO’s because they did not identify themselves to him.

        Even his parents and wife admitted, under oath during the bond hearing, they did not see anything wrong with the confessed murderer’s actions, and even justified his physical assault on the LEO’s. Why would a retired judge feel his son’s illegal actions against LEO’s were warranted? Doesn’t make any good common sense or logic.

        I don’t know of any mature and responsible parent or grandparent, who would feel it is okay for their children or grandchildren to physically assault LEO under any circumstances. Yet, the judge, his wife and daughter-in-law thought it was okay.

        Yet, there are those practicing a double standard who believe the confessed murderer’s actions towards LEO’s were justified because they allegedly showed no identification, but feel Trayvon, a child, should have identified himself to a total stranger, who nonetheless, was not a LEO, but a citizen who was on mood altering drugs who has a history of physical violence against LEO’s and women.

        http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/29/zimmermannofzinger-fix-now-a-fact/

        T.G.

  26. Zimmerman looks like an Illegal Alien Mexican drug cartel member. no wonder Trayvon ran. He could very well have been attempting to kidnap Trayvon to use in a Santoria human sacrifice black magic ritual, for all Trayvon knew. Zimmerman was clearly eye-fucking the boy.

    Under any account any of you can imagine, Zimmerman got out of his truck and hunted for this youth he had already convicted over and over in his imagination. It is all clear in the 911 call what is going on in his crazy head.

    Under any account, Zimmerman was no where near a street sign he claims to be looking for. He gives away his motive for hunting Trayvon because “they always get away”. He had clear intention to apprehend his suspect and detain him until the police arrived and called his cell, the he would tell them where he was holding Trayvon.

    Trayvon and Zimmerman exchanged words. We know that from the girlfriend. There was no way to pretend Trayvon was “lying in wait to ambush Zimmerman.” He asked why are you following me and was attacked by Zimmerman as he attempted to apprehend his suspect.

    Zimmerman’s Dad, the liar who is trying to craft the scott free murder for his son, who he has bailed out for years, first attempted to make the sidewalk the murder weapon to place with Trayvon. Then, just as the news of the video showing no significant injury broke, the lie had to change . So he went on the fox affiliate in Fla to change ghe story to now getting off the sidewalk, and now having his concealed gun exposed. Elder Zimmerman is in so much denial, he can’t even say that George shot Trayvon, he can only say that George “did what he did”.

    Zimmerman had no business straddling the dying boy. He was no doubt staging the crime scene in some way, to hide what he had done. The So called first witness, the”hannity” witness, is suspect. Fox caters to conservatives and ther belief in cultural hierarchy, they can’t be trusted to do anything but manufacture false information at serves their brand. Zimmerman shoved a cop, he probably also shoved Trayvon, just like the girlfriend heard.

  27. A very creative rendition to say the least. One would have to disregard Zimmerman’s statement that there was a guy hanging around and he never once states that Martin came walking through the main gate at the front.
    The black arrows assuming Martin’s path are inconsistent with Zimmerman telling the operator that Martin had ran and was heading towards the back entrance.
    Nor is that path a logical route to the father’s girlfriend’s residence for someone who is familiar with it’s location.
    What is the reason for Zimmerman’s assumed decision to make a left turn at that particular opening between residences?
    And, with Martin already on the run, having a generous head start, how was Zimmerman able to “cut him off” at that location?

      • That’s the map I was referring to. It’s preposterous to think that if Martin was heading for that address that he only was able to cover less than 100 yards in well over 2 minutes. Lying in wait until Zimmerman ended his phone call is looking more to be the case.
        The entire story has been based off what “DeeDee” claimed happened from the other side of a phone call.
        Question,… What did she think had happened to Martin later that evening,… the next day,… 2-3 days later? Did the father or his girlfriend not notice that Martin had just vanished? Did they not notice the activity of a crime scene, the news, neighbors talking about the incident for days and never suspect that Martin was the one who was shot?
        No missing person’s inquiry,….. he just vanished?
        None of that scenario makes sense.
        There was a whole lot more going on that evening than meets the ears via the press.
        A four mile round trip, on foot in the rain to buy Skittles and a beverage?

        • A) I don’t care if he was doing jumping jacks while smoking a blunt – or waiting to see wtf was up with this creepy guy following him – during those 2 minutes. He was being stalked. Yes, he could have gone home. I agree. He could have also been trying to ID the guy so he could call the cops and report him for stalking people.

          B) Has anybody seen her phone records after the incident? So, how can you say she didn’t try reaching out to Trayvon again that night? And, I didn’t have my girlfriend’s parents’ cellphone numbers growing up so who was she to call if Trayvon wasn’t answering? She’s probably not ULTRA paranoid like Zimmerman – not many are – so I doubt she’d call 911, right?

          C) Where did you get the 2-3 days? Here’s Trayvon’s dad the very next day: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

          D) The round-trip was 1.5 miles which is a 20-30 ish minute walk. I do that daily for lunch or when I want something from my local convenience store.

          Before you say the shooting/fight occurred where Tracy Martin was filmed in the above link, make sure to check out the police report and the 1:40 mark of this link…

      • From what I have read, TM’s father was not home when the incident happened. He came home later that night and assumed Trayvon was at a friend’s house. The next morning, he called the police since he did not come back and he wasn’t answering his phone.

      • Hatrick Penry,

        “Attorneys for Martin’s family said it wasn’t until weeks later, when Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, was looking through the teen’s cell phone bill that he noticed the timing of the last call. The family and their attorneys then contacted Trayvon’s girlfriend and heard her account of the night. Lawyer Benjamin Crump, who represents the family, recorded an interview with the girl and provided it with Martin’s cell phone records to federal authorities, who by then had joined the investigation.

        The logs, obtained by The Huffington Post, show that as Zimmerman was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher reporting Martin as “suspicious,” Martin answered a final call from his girlfriend.

        The call began at 7:12 p.m. Martin told her that “some strange dude” was following him, said Crump. She told Crump that Martin slowed to see who was behind him. The girl urged him to run, and he picked up his pace. Martin said he thought the man was gone, according to Crump. Instead, Zimmerman was likely closing in.

        “He’s right behind me, he’s right behind me again,” Martin told his girlfriend, according to Crump.

        “Next thing she hears is Martin saying, ‘Why are you following me?'” Crump said. “And she hears a voice that says, “What are you doing around here?’ Then she hears what she believes is a push against Martin and the phone crashes to the ground. She can hear them arguing in the background. Moments later, the phone line goes dead.”

        Phone records show the call ended at 7:16 p.m. Police arrived roughly a minute later.”

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/trayvon-martin-cops-botched-investigation_n_1409277.html

      • See also: http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/04/trayvon-martin-girlfriend-interviewed-prosecutors

        “Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend has been formally interviewed by prosecutors in connection with the unarmed 17-year-old’s death after neighborhood watch captain, George Zimmerman shot and killed him, RadarOnline.com is exclusively reporting.”

        “Martin’s girlfriend, who is a minor so RadarOnline.com won’t be disclosing her identity, was interviewed at an undisclosed location for more than two and a half hours.

        ‘Trayvon’s girlfriend was interviewed by the two district attorneys that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey appointed to the case,’ a source tells RadarOnline.com. ‘She was interviewed last week and her mother was present throughout. She was very forthcoming and had pertinent information to the investigation because she was the last person that talked to Trayvon before George Zimmerman shot and killed him. It was extremely emotional for her and her mother wanted to make sure it wasn’t too much for her. She would be a very compelling witness for the state of Florida if criminal charges are filed against George Zimmmerman.’ ”

        “The Florida State Attorney’s Office has issued a subpoena for Trayvon’s girlfriend to appear in front of the grand jury when it’s impaneled on April 10. “

  28. All of the discussion regarding the car location and which direction either of them went is all fine and good. But TM was found face down with a gunshot to the chest. And we have conflicting reports of who was on top of whom. Can someone please offer a reasonable theory on exactly what position TM was in when he was shot?

    Was he on top of GZ when shot in the chest and then fell to the ground and ended up on his chest? Or was he laying on the ground already, with GZ on top when shot in the chest (in which case we need to know how he ended up face down). Or what?

    I’ve sorted this over and over and read every report there is and I’m like you guys, someone who likes to study and investigate. This is not making sense to me and I’m sure there’s only one really good explanation that will fit with all the reports. I personally think the tape caught TM yelling for help, but we don’t know yet who it was. I think that would have bearing on where he was when shot.

    And while I’m at it, I’m betting my 2cents that GZ unholstered his gun when he went after TM. Given everything we know so far it makes sense that he would get his gun out as he crept around in the darkness following this suspected druggie guy that ‘had his hand in his waistband’ – my interpretation: he has a gun in his waistband, therefore I”m getting my gun out.

    Alas, if I’m right on that point, it gets really easy to see how a deadly confrontation took place. GZ should have stayed put in his car, he was just stupid to take matters into his own hands.

    • Excellent points – thank you!

      Check out my most recent update on the truck’s location! Why did Zimmerman ever head south on the sidewalk? That’s not walking back to his car. At all. His “Stand Your Ground” defense is that he was attacked while walking back to his car after the 911 operator told him to stop following Trayvon. Hmmmm.

      I’m like you – confused about who was on top/bottom. Zimmerman’s side of the story is that he was on the bottom getting pummeled by Trayvon, right? If he shot upwards into Trayvon’s chest cavity, there would be insane amounts of blood all over Zimmerman’s body/clothing and we would have seen that in the police video. And, of course, the officers would have been wearing gloves in the video.

      I’m not sure who was yelling for help. Zimmerman has stated in the police report that he was continuously yelling for help but nobody came. That’s tough to do with a broken nose while you’re gargling blood though, right? If you’re the aggressor and somebody’s screaming for help, do you think you’d make noise too or just quietly go upon the ass whooping? Meaning, why isn’t Trayvon Martin on tape yelling anything if Zimmerman is repeatedly screaming for help?

      Good point regarding the gun. I never thought of that. Zimmerman was paranoid as shiat when he was in the safety of his own car that Trayvon was reaching in his waistband for something (like skittles and iced tea, eh?) so he’d likely not have his finger too far from the trigger. Excellent point!

      Yup – If Zimmerman just listens to the 911 operator instead of playing hero and doesn’t stalk Trayvon, nobody dies.

    • Janet:

      I agree. My very first impression was the murderer was sliding a clip into the chamber when I heard the tapping and clicking noises. I strongly believe he already had his gun drawn before he found Trayvon. Trayvon’s screams and yells sound like someone caught off guard and horrified by the element of surprise.

      The noises/sounds never gave me the impression he was knocking on a door. Seems if it were a door, the knocks would be consistent, maybe louder or lower, but a knock would not sound like a click. I also believe the confessed murderer knew one of the male witnesses. There is a witnesses who stated the confessed murderer stated, “Call my wife and tell her I just killed somebody”. This witness has to know who his wife is in order to deliver the message.

      I still wonder what could have caused “…..his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth”…

      The confessed murderer also stated Trayvon tried to smother him and he could not brearth. However, from the description of Trayvon’s body, I got the distinct impression the murderer may have been trying to smother Trayon. Afterall, 2 witnesses did see him straddling Trayvon while pushing down on his back as Trayvon lay face down on the ground.

      It just seems as though the murderer has some type of disassociative disorder where he projects the very things he’s doing onto Trayvon, and the things that Trayvon did he claims it was him.

      For example, he says the screams were his, however we now know they were not. He accuses Trayvon of starring at him, coming towards him, hands in waist, etc. which are the very things the confessed murderer was doing.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

      T.G.

        • Now we know that TM had smoked MJ. That would have made him subdued and paranoid, not aggressive! More evidence that GZ is a fraud!
          Note: When whites use or sell MJ, it’s “counter cultural and/or recreational”
          But when blacks use or sell it, it’s criminal and/or “pushing”drugs.

          You see, his narrative of the events of that day, are quite obviously fashioned and contrived to meet the standards he has in mind, as being the controlling standards that need answers.

          Racism? He’s proud of his Hispanic Heritage, even though the SPD thinks he’s white. His reporting history is only against young black males.

          NW rules? Justify gun carry with claim to not be on patrol, just a trip to the store. But, if he uses RVC, which bends to the right, he’s out the gate in less than a minute, with eyes right to manage the curve in the road. He wouldn’t see TM if TM was to his left, he goes by in about 1 second or less. If TM is to his right, he spots him from behind. Neither of which is the case.

          Instead he comes out of his garage, goes straight for a few feet then turns right, straight for another couple of seconds and then turns left, straight for another few seconds then turns right, a few more feet then left again to go out the front gate. Why take such a complicated route just to make a quick trip to the store in the rain?

          So, we have an uncharacteristic route to the front gate for a trip that most people would rather not make in the rain, unless it was pretty darned urgent, like running out of toilet paper. If the trip was urgent, you’d pretty well leave most other things aside. Like stopping and waiting for someone to arrive walking in the rain, in a gated community where people hardly even walk in the sun. Yet, it appears that several minutes pass, since GZ has left his garage, and he’s still found approximately 300 feet from his house? Does that sound like an urgent trip to the store? Or more like “laying in wait”?

          “Hand in waistband” Uh-oh, he may have a gun, eh? Sure, the SPD will be glad to have me follow while armed, since that takes the load off them. Only it doesn’t work out that way, SPD tells him not to follow, but to wait! The answer? Introduce confusion: “I’ll get an address!” Wha??? In a community he’s patrolled for 2 years, that has only 3 streets, he can’t describe where he is? Guess he hasn’t learned anything since the last several call ins he made?
          This is the first clue you have, that GZ has something else in mind.
          That “something else”, explains why GZ doesn’t identify himself, when TM comes towards and walks past his car. What? Why is GZ acting like he’s James Bond on the trail of some international criminal master mind? Instead of a simple neighborhood watcher, trying to keep the community safe for all?

          He tells the 911 operator that he’s been made by TM, making it unlikely that he’s going to witness any crime, even if his suspect is a criminal. So then, why not end the hostile atmosphere then and there by identifying himself?
          But no, that would preclude whatever else GZ has planned! Result in a wasted set up, where all his patter about waistband, looking about, he’s on drugs, gets wasted. So, this now all gets put down to planning, and we see what was planned, in it’s aftermath.

          We’re getting glimpses of the kinds of people GZ attracts and it isn’t a pretty mix.

  29. Actually, Trayvon Martin’s father lied to the Miami Herald when they asked him why his son had been from suspended from school. Then he got mad when they went and investigated his statement and found out it was drugs.

    • Are you referring to the empty baggie with traces of Marijuana? He obviously was not a heavy user of drugs if they found no traces during the autopsy. It’s interesting that Zimm was not checked out for alcohol and drug use.

  30. Anyone read the officer who took the police statement? He saw blood coming from Zimmerman’s nose and head

  31. Another comment. No one has mentioned that Trayvon lived in Miami, not at the house he was visiting in Sanford. He most likely would have been confused by the maze of identical town homes and walkways. This may account foAtonat Zimmerman sees as “acting strange”, looking around, and also may play a factor in his route “home” and the length of time.

    It interesting that we have already developed a warped view in the shared narrative – Zimmerman lives there, and we’re supposed to find it reasonable that he has to look for a street name after being told not to follow, yet Trayvon is just visiting, and we expect him to be able to navigate that hall of mirrors of a neighborhood like the back of his hand.

    Can you imagine? According to ABC, the girlfriends says he said Zimmerman was creepy looking. And he does look creepy to me in the police video. Scary. Cold. Not nice. He sounds scary and cold in the calls. Psychotic.

    • Apparently his cell phone had ear buds. When people are talking to someone you can’t see, you first think maybe they are insane. Sometimes people gesture while talking. If Zimmerman was in the car, he may not have realized that Martin was talking on a cell phone.

    • Considering there are only two or three streets for that complex, how hard could’ve be to make that determination. I heard the mother of of the youngest witness saying that the kids there liked playing football with him, so my guess would be that he was fairly familiar.

      Acting strange, looking around…you’d have to consider the source. Not as if he was doing cartwheels up/down the street in the rain. He knew he had no legitimate reason for asking them to come out, so had to make up something. In my opinion, they should’ve asked for more details related to ‘acting strange’, looking around, at the houses…is he looking directly in someone’s window, attempting to open a window/door?

  32. In regard to the directions, he is trying to say,”Come straight in, don’t take the first left, instead proceed straight past the mailboxes and follow the road to the left, then you’ll see my truck.” this puts his truck somewhere past the left curve and before the right curve.

    First escalation is the staring match started by Zimmerman.
    Next escalation is the following in the car.
    Next escalation is the following on foot.
    We know Zimmerman is lying about being cold cocked. Instead, Trayvon asks “why are you following me?

    Which brings us to the next escalation.

    Now at this moment, let’s pretend you are 14 days past 16 years old. Are you going to initiate a struggle with a scary crazy person twice your age and wieght? When you’re trying to get to the second half of the all star game with your candy?

    On the other side, let’s pretend you’re a gun nut, you have a concealed carry, you declare yourself neighborhood watch and call the police on any black person you see in the neighborhood. You go to police training out of your desire to play cop. You have your number listed in the condo association to call in case of danger. You have called the police over 50 times. You see someone who looks like a bad guy, you call 911. They tell you not to follow and to wait at the entrance to meet the officers, you disobey and lament that “they always get away”. You follow your prey, who is now attempting to run from you. You tell the police to call you, and you’ll let them know where you’re at. You have a history of violent confrontation. You have struck your girlfriend, even a cop. You come upon your suspect and he asks, why are you following me?

    Zimmerman doesn’t answer Trayvon’s question, he doesn’t identify himself. What is the likey next move of Zimmerman at this moment, based on his mindset and history?

    • I’ll answer that! When asked “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman realizes that he doesn’t have an answer that makes any sense! He also realizes that doesn’t look good in relationship to the actions he’s taken so far.
      He has followed a suspect while armed, even though the SPD has told him not to do so. He, of course realizes that this is a serious offense against the NW rules he’s been taught, because they place so much emphasis on not following, and even more on not being armed.

      In sum total, he realizes instantly that he has no good answer, and that his actions will terrify the SPD, such that they’ll have no other choice but to take away his NW status and his command.

      He realizes that if Trayvon gets to tell his story to his people, the entire community will have some serious questions about him! That is not going to make him look very good anymore, in anyone’s eyes. And finally, he realizes that if TM tells his story, he will be humiliated in front of the community.

      The question: “Why are you following me?” by a 17 year old child with candy and iced tea in his hands, says “I’m not a criminal, I’m just a kid”.
      So GZ decided that the “fix” would be, not to let TM tell his side of the story!
      Allowing him to become some sort of hero, and hopefully leaving his lifetime of failure and obscurity behind.

  33. Excellent dialogue and analysis. I’ve certainly enjoyed reading facts and theories rather than supposition, presumption and conjecture and I congratulate you on simply examining the evidence, forming theories but not asserting them as facts. I’ve been following this story in the news but really couldn’t get my head around it. I started looking for map (I can’t get from the bedroom to the bathroom without a map – I think they add clarity and perspective) Then I began reading your theory and the alternate theories provided by your readers. Each brought something valuble to the discussion. I believe I have a better understanding of what happened. Nice work everyone!

    S

  34. First of all, thanks for this blog. I’ve been sort of obsessed with this case and trying to puzzle it out but I’ve seen nothing but vitriol and grief on the internets. Going through these responses and looking at your map has helped a lot.

    I have a thought, and it occurred to me when someone here asked why Martin didn’t call 911. Well, maybe he DID. I am not up to the moment on the technology of cell phones, but it used to be that if you called 911 but you were out of town in a different area code, the call would go to the dispatcher in your home town. When I got my first phone, I was told if I needed to get emergency services and I was out of town, I would need to tell the dispatcher what city I was in.

    We know that the Sanford police failed to even check Martin’s phone. The call to the girlfriend was discovered by either the Martins or their lawyer. Maybe there’s a 911 call they don’t even know about? I’m skeptical of my own theory though. Why wouldn’t the Martins have released that information by now? Who knows.

    And I realize it’s all conjecture. But I thought I’d throw it out there.

  35. Here is something else we may be able to deduce.

    At 2:08 in the audio, Zimmerman says “he’s running”.

    At 2:39 in the audio, Zimmerman says “He ran”; we assume from this that this is the point he loses sight of Trayvon.
    If Trayvon and Zimmerman did cross paths, like you suggest, I think its safe to assume Trayvon started running after he past Zimmerman; running away from him.
    Trayvon has now had 30 secs on run time.

    The audio call ends at 4:05, that gives Trayvon another 1:26 (86 Seconds) of travel time after Zimmerman loses sight of him.

    If we only assume that when Trayvon was running, he was running at your light jog speed (100ft in 10sec.) and he did this for 30sec. That’s 300 ft. Even if we assume Trayvon started walking immediately after the 30sec. run, we add 425 ft. (86 seconds at 100 ft per 20 seconds). For a total of 725 ft. at least.

    Even with the most conservative estimates, it seems Trayvon had more than enough time to get home.

    • Zimmerman said he was just heading back to his car when Trayvon attacked him from behind. Why did he head south down the path (to the eventual murder scene) when his car was due west?

      He should of said: “I continued to pursue Trayvon even though I was told told to stop and he was whopping my ass so I murdered him.”

      • We don’t know if he pursued him after the call ended, it’s very possible he did. It’s also possible he started to walk down the path in search of Trayvon and when he didn’t see him, he started back to his truck.

        Nothing in this timeline and graphic, of which you did a pretty good job by the way, proves who initiated the confrontation or started the fight.

        • Thank you (regarding the updated map).

          There was no reason to go down the path as – again – he was told to stop following the person.

          Zimmerman said he stopped following Trayvon after the call and went back to his truck when he was attacked from behind. That’s unequivocally false given this map.

  36. Follow-up:
    Using your scale, it looks like about 2 house widths per 200 feet. From the point of Zimmerman’s car, it looks to be about 450-500 ft to Trayvon’s home. Trayvon had a minimum of 725 ft of travel, again more then enough time to get home.

    The point of the shooting is about 200 ft from his home, meaning Trayvon only travels 250-300 ft after he started running at 2:08 in the audio. The call ends at about 4:05. Trayvon has at least 2 full minutes to get home. Where does he go?

    • Maybe he was sticking around to see what the hell was up with this crazy guy stalking him?

      Why did Zimmerman go south on the path? He was told to stop pursuing Trayvon and – per my calculation – his car was due west of where the 911 call ended.

    • Well, if it were me, I’d be hiding up against a building or in the bushes waiting to see if I’d lost creepy guy. Then once I thought the coast was clear I’d start walking home again. He did tell his girlfriend he thought he’d lost him.

    • It was raining. Maybe he was hiding out somewhere from the rain?? Remember he thought he had lost the creepy guy who was following him.

  37. I’m not taking sides here, just pointing out that there are other uncomfortable questions regarding this incident, like what was Trayvon doing during this time and why he didn’t go home when he could have.

    If this goes to trial, the defense is sure to bring this up; it adds to reasonable doubt.

  38. Regardless (or irregardless, which is correct?) of exactly where Zimmerman’s truck was parked and exactly where Trayvon and he walked, Zimmerman used poor judgment and was profiling someone which ultimately caused a teenager his life. It is obvious he was stalking the teenager. Zimmerman had no idea Trayvon was on a cellphone due to his using a headset. Zimmerman also had no idea how much forensic evidence was left behind just from the 911 tapes and the girlfriend’s cellphone conversation with Trayvon. And Zimmerman’s father needs to shut up because he’s just making the case worse for his son. If Trayvon had been threatening Zimmerman during their fight, I think it would have been picked up on the 911 call that picked up the screams for help. With that much adrenaline going on, Trayvon would have been yelling the threat, not whispering it. The cries for help also sound more like a young, male black voice than that of an older male.

    • Regardless is correct…irregardless isn’t a word. :-)

      The moment Zimmerman decided to NOT go back to his truck (as he was instructed to do) was the moment he lost his “Stand Your Ground” argument. He got in a fight with a teenager, (purposely?) lost, and murdered the unarmed person he was fighting.

      • In my estimation he lost his right to SYG several times.
        1. When the “suspect” made him, he would know that someone being followed would make every effort to lose his tail. Would not commit any crime, knowing he was being followed. So GZ’s best bet at that point, to keep the nabe safe, is to identify himself, and possibly discover that TM was no suspect at all.

        2. When GZ exits his vehicle to follow, he’s escalating hostilities by this action alone. Thus, he loses SYG rights again.

        3. When he exits his vehicle, carrying a weapon, he again breaks the rules and becomes a criminal himself! He knows of no reason that requires him to follow TM with a firearm! So that’s another escalation of hostilities GZ performs willfully.

        4. When he turns south at the ‘T’, he again escalates the hostilities he has been instructed to end! Hostilities he, himself has agreed to end, but now secretly refuses to do!

        5. When TM asks him to identify himself and/or explain his actions, once again GZ escalates hostilities “off the board”, by refusing to comply immediately. The question “Why are you following me?”, shows that TM has no idea of who GZ is or what he is doing. While GZ is equally ignorant of who TM is and what he is doing! By refusing to answer a direct challenge, all the while knowing that he is operating outside of the rules he has been given, and the advice of the police, GZ is allowing himself to continue to be in a criminal mode. The SPD would not agree that GZ should be where he is, at this time! The NW rules definitively state and prohibit that GZ should be where he is and doing what he’s doing. And with a prohibited firearm to boot!

        When the first officer arrives on the scene, if he had been aware of what had transpired, his first question would have been: “What are you doing here, since we told you to stop and not to follow and you agreed that you weren’t?” His next statement would then have been, “You have no right to be here at all, therefore you are under arrest for homicide!”

        Of course, the first officer on the scene could not have known what transpired. But a quick review of the 911 tapes, should have resulted in a conclusion that GZ did continue to follow, after being told not to and agreeing that he wasn’t. If he was jumped from behind, it’s only because he improperly exposed himself to defensive actions by stalking. Hostilities of this type are not merely ended, simply by turning your back on the suspect. But, we have only his now worthless word that he did that. Obviously he has given his word before, and it turned out to be worthless!
        Why should this time be different? Now that someone is dead at his hands?

    • I agree with you. The screams heard on the tape don’t appear to be in response to someone else yelling a threat. I feel it’s likely it was Trayvon screaming for help. It sounds like someone cowering in fear for their life (because the person with a gun is threatening to shoot you) – then the shot is heard and the pleas stop.
      IMO the kid tried to look tough to Zimmerman because he was afraid of him. Given what we know from the girlfriend, if TM circled back around, it wasn’t on purpose to confront Zimmerman. But when they found each other again Trayvon probably puffed up, I know I would. And that caused Zimmerman to get further out of hand. I have confidence in this prosecutor and believe we’ll get an accurate picture soon.

      • Thanks for this. This is what we’ve been waiting for. It was pretty obvious to me from just listening to the 911 tape that that wasn’t George Zimmerman’s voice wailing for help. Given what the screams said, it would then seem to be very likely that the gun was already pointed at Trayvon. He was screaming like he was because he thought he was going to be shot. Then the shot rang out, and silence.

        And if the voice analysis proves to be true, that also means that GZ is one big old bad liar, given that he tried to convince everyone that the screaming was him.

        Think of it this way too. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, if those wails were from my kid/brother or not. So how could all of the Zimmermans think it was their guy instead of Trayvon? Bad news all the way around.

        • “So how could all of the Zimmermans think it was their guy instead of Trayvon.”

          I suspect anything to fit their narrative. Ugh. If I was the family’s lawyer, I’d suggest they stop talking to the press…immediately!

  39. Also, Zimmerman’s green t-shirt shown in the police video has no blood on the front of it that I can see. From his story it sounded like he was saying Trayvon had him on the ground beating the tar out of him and he pulled the gun and shot. With the person who is shot in the chest being on top of you wouldn’t you have blood from his wound on your shirt? Even if he fell off instantaneously after being shot? It’s all going to come out at the grand jury meeting and Zimmerman will stand trial.

      • Still trying to figure out what position TM was in when he was shot in the chest that ended up with him landing face down. Unless GZ rolled TM over after shooting him. We have a witness who clearly states that after the shooting she went outside and saw GZ straddling TM. So that would put him on TM’s back. But the shot was to the chest. Still trying to figure this out. Anybody got insight into how this could be?

        • If I was Zimmerman (god, there’s nothing about me that’s even remotely Zimmerman), I would have flipped Trayvon over so I didn’t have to look at the suffering face of a kid I just shot.

          Note: This isn’t reported anywhere…at all. It’s not even what I’m speculating — I’m not sure how his body ended up face down. It’s just an observation.

      • Is it possible TM landed on his back and then rolled over face down? The police report says his hands were underneath his body ( gripping his chest?) when found at the scene of the crime. Eyewitness/es claim GZ was straddling him and was holding his hands on TM’s back, maybe assuming he was still moving before the police arrived. One lost minute with lots of questions to be answered! I would like to read the initial police report when GZ was questioned by SPD.

  40. I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman flipped him over and pinned him from behind in a pseudo handcuff maneuver, since he appears to have studied police tactics. Then perhaps he realized there was no point in trying to subdue him since he was dead or dying. Just speculating. I just think one of the oddest things about any scenario we hear on this, is that he was face down. There has to be forensics regarding the blood spatter, and the distance of the gunshot. I’m very eager to hear the final reports on this because it still doesn’t add up.

    • Good point – he was playing cop the whole time…why not flip the “suspect” over and pin his arms behind his back like the show “Cops?” Ugh!

      I’m also DEFINITELY looking forward to the trial.

      • Tracy Martin said when he identified the body his son’e eyes were rolled back and he had a tear on his cheek. I agree Z may have rolled him over not able to take looking at his face. Also he may have been checking all of his pockets hoping to find a weapon. Plus didn’t the funeral director state there was a gun shot wound to the chest? No point of entry alluded to on his back

          • >Did the funeral director really say no shot to the chest?!? Holy…

            The funeral director said that, because of the autopsy, it was impossible to really determine much about the gunshot wound. It was possible to see that there were no injuries elsewhere, particularly to Martin’s hands.

    • Just saw that too (and added it to the updates)! Holy F_CK!

      If this ends up being factually correct – it’s tough to doubt 2 independent experts – it’s CRAZY Zimmerman was deceiving/informed enough to know he had to claim he was crying for help because that’s what his victim was doing.

      • And he told police it was him on the tape. He even whined that nobody came to help him.

        Only one word comes to mind. Sociopath.

      • Not just a sociopath, but one with something possible like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder hence all of his calls to the police. He wanted a perfect environment keeping all other people out of the way of his “perfect” neighbourhood. His gun toting is a symbol of his lack of manhood– his gun was his Freudian private part– IMO

  41. “No Longer Mass Emailing”,

    I have put some thought to what may have happen prior to GZ’s 911 call.
    So, I listened and listened again the call and came to the conclusion that GZ spotted TM shortly prior to the call, then parked on twin trees ln expecting TM to come in view. While parked he placed his call to police.

    The first 45sec of the tape suggest what I’m claiming above:
    1) He places TM on Retreat View Cl,
    2) The he says: “He WORE jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes.”
    3) Finally, he says “He’s here NOW”..

    It tells me 2 things:
    1) GZ was parked on Twin Trees Ln in view of Retreat View Circle or the club house, and
    2) TM was actually walking on Retreat View Circle. This mean, he used another way to enter the gated community.

    So, I used google’s street view and realized the gated community isn’t fully walled. You can enter by foot from Oregon Ave.

    Finally, it places GZ’s truck right after the left curv of twin trees ln.

    • Interesting. I’ve heard suggestions that TM may have entered from the Northwest corner and not the “Front Gate” because that’s what everybody did coming from this direction. You’d think the wannabe cop, Zimmerman, would have mentioned this during his 911 call if he saw it though, right? Or, are you not suggesting GZ saw TM enter the gated community?

      Thoughts regarding the updated map below? I finally broke out the tape measure and stopwatch…ha!

      Next thing I want to figure out – what happened to the hoodie before/during/after the fight?!?

      • In my opinion, GZ’s green t shirt and TM’s grey hoodie are both identifiable as a “white t-shirt” from a distance. They are both light enough to be misidentified in the same way.

        What was he doing pinning down Trayvon after the shot? Keeping him from escaping still? Yes, I think he wasn’t sure how much the shot had done, and he jumped on Trayvon to keep him down, in case he fought back some more.

        Another thought. Why didn’t Trayvon call 911? Because ” get up, get down, 911 is a joke in my town”. Black communities typically don’t have a reasonable hope of protection from 911. I think, as someone else said, he was in touch with someone close he knew was at their phone, as a protectionary measure, in case something happened to him. He was scared.

        • Not in a snarky tone but I’m not sure how a darker green tshirt (covered by a red jacket) or grey hoodie could be confused for a white tshirt.

          I agree with the 2nd part though. And, nobody (other than Zimmerman) likes to overreact – especially “today’s kids.”

      • Trayvon’s entering from the nw corner makes alot of sense. If I were a teenager i would probably cut through there. Looks like the front gated car entrance also has a gate for pedestrians, don’t know if it’s kept unlocked or if you’d need a key. We know Trayvon didn’t have a key on him. Also to me it makes sense for him to have entered this way because it gave Trayvon more walking distance by homes along Retreat View Circle infront of the clubhouse to be observed by Zimmerman. In the 911 call Zimmerman said the guy was walking around looking at all the homes (which I don’t believe, Z said this to get the cops out there because he just knew he had a criminal on his hands). I wonder if Trayvon’s route he was planning to take home was to take a right off of Retreat View onto Twin Trees infront of the clubhouse and follow it around to where it intersects Retreat View Circle again and then he would hang a left and be feet from the frontdoor where he was staying. Maybe the reason Trayvon took the sidewalk that runs between the back of the townhomes (and where he was killed) because at this point he was trying to lose the guy in the truck who was stalking him. I don’t think Trayvon took the cutoff because he was going to enter the townhouse through the backdoor. And this is a big assumption. I just know at my house family members come in through the front door. Either way Trayvon entered the subdivision, it doesn’t really change thoughts and ideas of what happened after Z hung up from the 911 call. One thing you can surmise, Trayon didn’t know Z had exited his truck and was now looking for him on foot. Personally, I think Z surprised Trayvon by appearing infront of him on the sidewalk between buildings. Manslaughter with culpable negligence at the least.

      • No snark taken.

        It is a very faded, washed out forest green. A pastel, if you will. Color is not so much visible, as much as “shade” is. At a distance and in the twilight, people are seeing how light and dark things are.

        This is another aspect you can test out physically, maybe?

        • Great idea! I’ve got a medium dark blue shirt – I actually thought Zimmerman’s shirt looked like mine in the surveillance video – that I’ll test with my wife.

          I’ll go outside later today when it gets darker – maybe 30 feet away – and ask her to quickly describe the shirt as white, grey, or dark. She hasn’t followed the case at all and won’t know what I’m talking about (until I explain my “craziness” after the fact). I’ll post a picture of the shirt to the blog as well.

      • I think the simplest is that GM saw TM walking east on Retreat View toward the entrance while he was himself driving in that same direction.
        Then, GM decided to check on TM. So, he turned right on Twin Trees Ln, stopped his truck and called police while keeping an eye on the junction between Retreat View Cir and Twin Trees.

        That would obviously put GM’s truck closer to your original drawing. I’m sorry about that.

        I also believe, GM made a U-turn prior to stopping his truck. Else, he would have followed TM by car on Twin Tree Ln before chasing him on foot.

        I check again a photo from Fox Orlando news (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4) on which we can see the cops (Timothy is clearly there). In that photo, we can also see the curve on Twin Trees near the crime scene (the reporter was on Retreat View Cir). There is a white pick-up truck parked facing north. That truck looks the same as everyone can see from Googlemap sky view. Moreover, it is parked on exactly the same spot as on googlemap. So, that truck is probably not GZ’s. Moreover, I wouldn’t expect GZ’s truck to face north if he were following TM walking south from the club house.
        There is also another vehicle further away. That one isn’t a truck, it’s a sedan, and it’s parked on a drive way. Conclusion, GZ’s truck isn’t visible on Twin Trees Ln at the curve near the crime scene.

    • Maybe GZ’s buddy,the former watch dog, saw TM coming and called ahead to GZ to be on the watch out. That would account for GZ’s wording and according to the map, the buddy had a good view of the cut thru route. Odd indeed how he described him and then saw him.I wonder if phone records were checked.
      I also wonder about why the blood on GZ’s head was trickling straight down or towards his face if he was on his back getting his head “bashed’ in. If he was on his back long enough to fear for his life seems as if the blood would have run to the back of his head

      • Thank you for the comment!

        Zimmerman’s phone records – specifically, a possible call from Taaffe around 7 pm – could be extremely damning. Unless, of course, Taaffe, Zimmerman, and others on the Neighborhood Watch used CB radios to communicate instead.

  42. Refresh my memory on this detail. Doesn’t GZ say that after he was told not to follow, that he wason his way back to his car, but then went somewhere to get a cross street location?

    if I search “cross street”, I find it only in one story, the one from Fox.

    “WOFL got an exclusive interview with Zimmerman’s father Robert. Now, he says that his son followed Trayvon, so he could give police a cross street for his location. Here’s what his father says happened, next.

    ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S FATHER: He went to the next street, realized where he was and he was walking back to his vehicle. It’s my understanding that at that point Trayvon Martin walked up to him, asked him, do you have a (bleep) problem?

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-family-attorney-george-zimmerman-vigilante#ixzz1qnj9yx3s

    So it sounds like ZImmerman walked all the way across the top of the “T”, (Is there a street sign anywhere visible?) It doesn’t say he saw where he was but that he “realized” where he was.

    This still does not explain how the body is behind the 2nd house. Also draws in to question how could Trayvon approached him from behind?

    GZ has a problem with this part of the story. TM could NOT have come form behind, because GZ has just doubled back on his own path. Also the conversation DD hears on the phone call suggests a face to face encounter.

    • Yup. There was absolutely no reason to head south down that path when he was told to return to his car which was due west. There was no street sign. His car wasn’t in that direction. He was just trying to continue playing cop in my opinion. And, such stalking resulted in a teenager dying.

    • Z’s story of having to find a street sign so he knew where he was is a complete lie. I live in a subdivision about the same size, only we have one more street than what is in Z’s subdivision. Just from walking my dogs around (and I do this at night) I would know where I was at at any given time and wouldn’t have to find a street sign. This is just an excuse to cover why he was doing what he was doing. Z was such a go getter with this whole crime watch thing I am sure he knew that subdivision like the back of his hand.

  43. Maybe the altercation occurs at the top of the T and after Trayvon is shot, he attempts to go to the house with a light on to get them to call for help. He makes it in that direction but falls down face first in the grass. Zimmerman jumps on him to make sure he doesn’t get away. Trayvon dies.

    This would fit nicely for GZ, but it doesn’t fit the actual witness testimony that seems to see the men struggling on the ground and GZ seems to get up from TM after the shot and straddle TM.

    No one reports them moving location significantly in the struggle. But remember the walkthrough that GZ lead was within a day and it was videotaped. I hope we get to see that information.

    Most likely the Republican inm charge will bury it in a secret grand jury and declare the shooter in the right, because the truth in this case is not going to serve the Republican agenda.

    • Yeah – George Zimmerman’s walkthrough is key but, remember, he knows law VERY well and any walkthrough he conducted will cover his ass. The forensics, on the other hand, wont. I hope they did a thorough crime scene investigation/autopsy.

      Based on eyewitness accounts, it’s impossible for the fight to occur at the top of the T and then have bodies end up 25-50 south.

    • the school teacher heard angry voices; she wondered who would be out there when it’s pouring rain unless walking a dog. she saw a struggle about to start … “those men.” probably why the two women closet to the “T” didn’t hear scufflin; just whimpering–Tray’s last breaths. the women weren’t close enough to hear, but saw the end of it. straddling was at the end of it.

      i am wondering about the white tee & jon & reports of gun shot(s) from several callers.

  44. The white t-shirt thing has me intrigued. What type of street lights, if any, is the place lite up with? I know that depending on what type of light, colors can be distorted at night. I had a red car once that looked silver under a street light I was parked under. Couldn’t find my car at first. Have the investigators taken the actual clothing both were wearing back out to the subdivision at night to see what colors they look like?

  45. I am still amazed that GZ, a neighborhood watch captain who aspired to be a police officer and who has lived in this community, cannot give accurate directions or addresses. Some have said that GZ was under stress at the time he made the 911 call. My god, he was just sitting in his car talking to 911, trying to describe a person that he is watching. Look at the following and listen to the tape again.

    1) GZ says 111 Retreat View for the clubhouse address. The address is 1111. Even the police dispatcher questions the 111 number. Every address in that community is four digits.
    2) GZ cannot give clear concise directions for the police as to where he is and the route they need to take. Listen to the tape. He stumbles, repeats himself, says uh, cannot tell the dispatcher how to enter the complex. Turn left, no go staight ect ect. He lives here and patrols here but cannot give directions.
    3) Now his father says that GZ did not know where he was and needed to find a cross street.

    I still say that this guy was either on something at the time he made this call or has an impairment.

    • It’s fairly obvious – the 50ish calls to 911 over the past few years and his demeanor on this call (E.g. He doesn’t want somebody hiding nearby to hear his address as if they’d remember it) – that Zimmerman is a paranoid dude.

    • Honestly, I thought the same thing when I heard him talking. I thought he was slow and then when he described how TM was checking him out and coming towards him I sensed he was really scared. When I researched more and was able to see the ariel view I was floored. I really think this guys has a screw loose, his defense might want to consider a mental evaluation, it may actually save his ass.

      • I should hope a psychiatrist will evaluate him. I also noticed he does not sound college educated. He sounded flat, depressed like. Mind you his father was a magistrate and he also didn’t sound too intelligent. Someone needs to look at the family life. Also there was an article that Zimmerman used to work as a security guard for parties and was fired bc he flew of the handle, and hurt a woman’s ankle by throwing her out of the party as she had become rambunctious after drinking. Anyone else read that?

    • Zimmerman’s truck’s location (at 1111 Retreat View Circle) and the scene of the shooting (at the northern most part of the T) are grossly incorrect in this map.

      Zimmerman’s parked truck (per my the calculations that I’ve noted in the posting above) and scene of the shooting (per the 911 calls/eyewitness accounts) can be seen here:

      • Yes, agreed. What I was trying to capture there, which didn’t transfer with the link, was a Google street view from S. Oregon Ave, peering between the town homes, you can see clear through to the walkway wehre ZImmerman would have been, although, not extremely clearly, but it gives an idea of perspective.

        Based on locations, here is what I now hink is a likely version of the locations:
        Trayvon initially escapes by coming around the edge of the first town home and waits there to see if Zimmerman is really going as far as to chase him that far. Someone is maybe chasing you, its kind of off putting, it would be hard to believe. Trayvon is wondering what is going on whis crazy fool, so he is just right there out of view to see if this guy is really coming after him. He is stil on telephone, he’s talking to his girl. He thinks maybe he escaped, and for the moment he has.

        Then Zimmerman gets through with the locations part of the 911 call and keeps pursuing his perp.

        The face to face is as ZImmerman comes around the corner, near the T, but a little south, where Trayvon is resting and talking.

        The confrontation, which consistes of a conversation, ensues here, at the T, but just down the stem, behind the corner of the first house.

        Trayvon tries to explain himself, but Zimmerman already has a whole profile built in his imagination, so he agressively denies the explanation. THis is the argument people heatr. Trayvon moves to escape towards home, Zimmerman rushes him, and the scuffle lands in the grass with Trayvon doing now the next best thing he is able, Yelling for help, and trying to fend off his attacker.

        From this point, we are in a fight, and we have no idea if Trayvon is murdered straight out, or if he starts winning the fight, and then gets murdered. Most likely, neither man not child had a true ill preconceived intention, and it is the result of a situation perceived and forced by Zimmerman’s psychosis. He didn’t set out to kill Trayvon, but the situation he created got out of contriol, and he became a murderer.

        This whole idea of fear that he needs to need to defend himself from, is entirely of his own creation and forced onto the victim.

        • I’m at a loss when it comes to thinking about how/why the confrontation began. Meaning, there are so many different angles you can take that it’s truly mind numbing. But, I see what you’re saying. My goal/hope is to prove whether Zimmerman was attacked from behind as he was returning to his truck or if he continued pursuing/stalking Trayvon when he was told not to.

          With the data/info I’ve gathered, I see absolutely no way Zimmerman was attacked from behind while returning to his vehicle. It’s not possible. As the 911 call ended, his truck was parked due west but confrontation/shooting happened southwest of his location.

          There was no reason for Zimmerman to go south unless he was continuing to pursue/stalk Trayvon – something he was obviously told not to do. Moreover, if Zimmerman headed south – as he must have per the data I’ve gathered – Stand Your Ground is no longer applicable.

  46. I believe GZ is mentally unstable and a sociopath. I believe all the things he claimed TM said to him were actually the things HE said to TM. You gon die tonight, you got a problem homie etc. etc. He is so sick he believes what he is saying is true. TM was hollering not GZ.

  47. Great blog. My 2c. True, gap exists when TM could have gone home. But he was under no obligation. Plus ditching cops or toy-cops is legal prior to confrontation. Plus toy-cops do not have any real power. Think this will legally turn into a fight. Likely starting with jostling by somebody. But people are individually responsible for heating up. And what the screams indicate is that Trayvon tapped out. No Mas. No Mas. At this point both parties have a duty to flee. And both parties are responsible for consequences. Meaning minimum manslaughter. Max is murder one. Issue is akin to dueling equals murder. Where somebody would egg somebody into a fight to kill them. At any point during the 40 seconds of cries Z could have backed out. But he chose aggressiveness. And clearly TMs cries indicate he would have willingly parted and called it a draw. Except for Z. This means Z is toast.

  48. The issue I have lies with “the white t-shirt.” I realize that in rainy, street light darkness “grey” or “green” can be mistaken for white. However, I find it hard to believe that anyone could mistake a grey “long-sleeve” hoodie sweater, for a “short-sleeve” t-shirt of any color.

    • I agree that the white t-shirt detail is troubling.

      GZ says TM wears a DARK gray hoodie. He later says that TM has button on his shirt. It’s not clear to me whether the shirt is the hoodie or the hoodie is open revealing a shirt with buttons on it.
      Finally, police report says the dead TM has a gray sweater.
      Nevertheless, I’m not sure if we can really confuse a DARK hoodie with a white shirt.

      Transcript of GZ’s call:

      911 dispatcher:
      Did you see what he was wearing?
      Zimmerman:
      Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00’42”]
      911 dispatcher:
      He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
      Zimmerman:
      Now he’s staring at me. [00’48”]
      911 dispatcher:
      OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
      Zimmerman:
      That’s the clubhouse.
      911 dispatcher:
      He’s near the clubhouse now?
      Audible windshield wiper: [1’00”]
      Zimmerman:
      Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
      And he’s a black male.[1’03”]
      911 dispatcher:
      How old would you say he is?
      Zimmerman:
      He’s got button on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.
      911 dispatcher:
      Late teens?
      Audible windshield wiper: [1’16”]

      • This is indeed a possible scenario. But, it doesn’t explain how GZ would have caught up on TM and how the confrontation ends up so close to the starting point 4-5min after the chase started .

        • Agreed – I can’t even imagine how/why the confrontation began where it began.

          My goal from the outset on March 27th was to either prove or disprove that Zimmerman was attacked from behind by Trayvon as he was returning to his truck.

          In this scenario – and almost every other scenario I’ve dreamt up online/offline – that’s 100% impossible. And, of course, providing false information (seemingly a recurring theme in this case so far) is a crime.

      • If he saw Martin heading out of the community and thought he was a burglar, why would he expect him to return?

  49. I like the new map as it seems to really piece things together. One thing that troubles me is the statement made by TM’s girlfriend. She said that TM claimed that someone was following him ). If GZ was parked where you show on the updated map, he wouldn’t have covered enough ground in his truck for TM to assume that he was following him especially if he stayed parked the entire time until TM passed him (assuming TM kept straight to take the path between the townhomes). I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that GZ exited the subdivision initially and made a u-turn once he saw TM walking towards the homes. Another issue that blows my mind is that GZ claimed that he was on his way to Target when he spotted TM. I’m not sure where GZ lives but the video located here

    :http://blog.reidreport.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-a-walk-through-of-the-shooting-scene/

    claims that GZ lived in the Southwest corner of the Map. If we are to assume that he was going to Target and was taking the quickest route to the front gate, I don’t understand how he could suddenly be parked on the opposite end of the complex unless he chose to take the scenic route. This statement could also be a cover to protect the HOA since it would make it appear that GZ was not on duty at the time of the murder. We can all assume that at some point, a civil case will be filed against the HOA for a wrongful death suit since local watchmen aren’t authorized to carry guns.

    Lastly, GZ’s father said that GZ thought TM looked suspicious because he was walking behind the townhomes. If this statement is true, how could GZ call the police minutes before TM got behind the town homes unless we are talking about another set of townhomes. Even TMs father said that his son may have cut through a hole in the fence or something along those lines.

    I personally think that there wasn’t really too much a fight. I think that GZ tried to forcefully detain TM until police arrived but TM tried to get free. At some point GZ got frustrated and shot TM since his screaming was drawing too much attention. He even admitted that he thought the whole incident would blow over. He thought that TM would turn out to be the person burglarizing all the homes and I’m sure GZ was expecting to get a medal and a parade thrown for him.

    • The text analysis I eventually add below the new map – I’m seriously done thinking about Zimmerman for a few hours (ha) – will address some of what you mention. Thank you!

      My analysis will also ask some important questions that I’m struggling with like: “Why did Trayvon run when he did around the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call?”

      If my new map is correct, Zimmerman was still in his parked truck facing west by the cut through, watching Trayvon in his rearview mirrors, talking to 911 about how “these assholes always get away,” giving absolutely HORRIBLE directions to his location, and then Trayvon runs.

      So, what made Trayvon run around the 2:08 mark? Rain? Was he sick/scared of being stalked by Zimmerman? And, by sick/scared of being stalked, I don’t mean the first time Trayvon noticed Zimmerman was when he was leaving the clubhouse’s awning at the beginning of Zimmerman’s 911 call. Trayvon wouldn’t be sick/scared of Zimmerman watching him if the only time they saw each other was from :01 – 1:30 of Zimmerman’s 911 call. I sort of make this point in my original posting but that seems like years (and a few maps) ago.

      George Zimmerman’s residence is located at 1950 Retreat View Circle. So, you’re correct – the southwest portion of the gated community. The closest Target is northwest of the gated community. Zimmerman would have taken Oregon Ave west, Reinhart Rd southwest, and then Towne Center Blvd north to get to Target. To get to 7/11, Martin would have been going west on Oregon Ave and then southwest on Reinhart Rd. We can all figure out their return directions to the gated community. :-) Hint: They were taking the same paths to/from their destinations of 7/11 and Target.

      • Thanks for explaining the route that Zimmerman could have took to Target. It really clears up how he would have come into contact with TM. I hope that by chance there is a traffic cam or other security camera pointed towards the front of the complex so we could see if GZ left and came back or maybe we could learn something else. I look forward to reading your updated analysis!

      • What made TM run at 2’08!!!
        GZ’s gun is the best answer I can get.

        Here is my tanscript of GZ’s call:

        #############################
        Zimmerman: Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00’42”]

        911 dispatcher: He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

        Zimmerman: Now he’s staring at me. [00’48”]

        911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

        Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse.

        911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now?

        Audible windshield wiper: [1’00”]

        Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1’03”]

        911 dispatcher: How old would you say he is?

        Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.

        911 dispatcher: Late teens?

        Audible windshield wiper: [1’16”]

        Zimmerman: Uh, huh. Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01’20”]

        911 dispatcher: Let me know if he does anything, OK?

        Zimmerman: OK.

        911 dispatcher: We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

        Zimmerman: OK. [1’34”]

        {Barely audible comment sounding like: Thanks god?!?}[1’34”]

        {Unidentified background noise indicating GZ moves or moves something}

        Zimmerman: These assholes. They always get away. [1’39”] When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.

        911 dispatcher: OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

        Zimmerman: Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. Shit he’s running. [2’07”]

        #########################

        Here is what I understand about what is going on.

        GZ sounds nervous when TM starts walking toward him. TM really think he comes for him (“he’s coming to check me out.”, “I don’t know what his deal is”). On top of that TM has something in his hands, something is wrong with him.

        The dispatcher realizes that GZ is nervous and tries to reassure him (We’ve got him on the wire. JUST let me know if this guy does anything else.).

        But still, GZ is alone in his truck, in the street, in the night and police is probably minutes away while TM is right in front of him (he can see the buttons on his shirt).

        So, GZ search his car for his gun. According to the SPD leak, GZ was going shopping. So, he didn’t have his gun on him. Listen at the 1’34” mark. You can barely hear what GZ is saying. It seems to me he says “Thanks God”. Then, there is that noise that I couldn’t identify [HELP] as if GZ is shuffling/moving stuff around.

        It might be that TM saw GZ’s gun and ran.

        And GZ felt empowered and chased him.

        I would love to be able to

      • I went too far yesterday when I claimed TM saw the gun.
        It still makes sense that GZ took his gun with him at the moment I was explaining.

        Yes at the 55″ mark, TM is still near the club house.

        In fact, at the 42″ mark, TM came in view of GZ. Which means GZ was waiting for him. GZ saw TM when driving on Retreat View Cir toward the north entrance to go shopping and knew TM was walking in that same direction. So, he was expecting TM to get by the club house any moment. This is also why he chose to park where he parked. I believe it is right at the curve on Twin trees Ln.

        At the 48″ mark, GZ says “Now he’s staring at me”. This is the moment TM wonders “Isn’t it that same truck that passed by moment ago? Wasn’t that dude staring at me?”

        At the 1’00” mark GZ says “Yeah, now he’s coming toward me.”. That suggests TM paused (stop walking) when he noticed GZ was parked waiting for him. Then he resumed walking keeping GZ in sight and running if he passes GZ’s truck unhurt.

        At the 1’39” mark GZ says “These assholes. They always get away.”. I believe this is the moment TM passed GZ. Second before, GZ really sounded unsecured. Then suddenly at that 1’39” mark, he sounds more assertive in his “These assholes” comment.

        At the 2’07” mark TM starts running. I don’t know what made him run all of the sudden. Maybe, I had in view a hide out he could go. Maybe, GZ started following TM by car (I tried getting evidences of this from background noise but failed so far). I thought TM saw GZ’s gun, but now I realize he should have ran earlier and he may have called 911 rather than GF, or at least mentioned it to F as it would be a big thing.

        At mark 2’19”, GZ starts chasing TM on foot (wind noise).

        At mark 2’37”, GZ says “He ran” then stops running TM (no more wind noise). He realizes he has no idea of what path TM may have taken.

        At mark 3’40”, GZ says “It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible]” showing that he thinks TM maybe near him. it also shows he is scared to some level.

        At mark 3’43”, GZ says agrees with dispatcher about meeting at mailboxes.

        At mark 3’49”, GZ suddenly changes his mind (he interrupts the dispatcher) and ask for being called when the officer arrives so he can give his position. Something made him decide not to go back to his truck.

        At mark 4’11”, the call is ended. It is 7pm 13min & 45sec.

        Thanks for the list of marks to listen. Apparently there are more background noises to be understood.

      • I listened to the time marks you were pointing out. I have always assumed these are from the dispatcher typing on a keyboard.

    • TM’s father said he came through the gate. See video of his walk through above.

      • I think Tracy Martin was assuming Trayvon entered at the gated “Front Entrance.” Regardless of where or how Trayvon entered the gated community, he was AT the clubhouse at the :55 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call.

  50. Excellent analysis with good comments. Looking forward to see how all the evidence gathered will be used and reasoned upon.

    Trayvon did not deserve this horrible last few moments of his precious life. Whenever I hear that recording of his screams, it breaks my heart. Let justice prevail!

  51. Perhapsim2right…back…bringing conservatism to a troubled world…expect posts, expect discussion, expect dissention to otherwise WRONG comments…Moral of the story, if you come to a neighborhood to steal/cause havoc where the 2nd ammendment is alive and well, you will be dealt with accordingly. Long live the Bill of Rights.

  52. You’ve got it close, but not quite right, on the early part of the call. Martin clearly entered the neighborhood from the northwest corner. For Zimmerman to have seen him at that point (which he must have, due to the timing on the call), Zimmerman had to be at the intersection. He backed up around the bend while he was saying that they “always get away”.

    I have the whole timeline down to the second on the clock.

    http://www.logarchism.com/2012/04/02/trayvon-martin-timeline-of-february-26/

    • Thank you for the comment!

      I like the time/energy/effort you’ve put into the blog posting but it’s confusing. Why was Zimmerman parked just east of the clubhouse facing north if he left his home (southwest most portion of the gated community) for a trip to Target? The logical route is to head north on Retreat Circle View until it goes east. Once he gets to the clubhouse, he’d turn left (north) to exit through the “Front Entrance.”

      I don’t claim to know how/why Zimmerman ended up parked at my location facing west near a cut through looking at Trayvon duck under the clubhouse’s awning right before he called 911 but the timing referenced here makes absolute sense…

      Maybe spell out the timing/locations in a comment without your analysis/screenshots and I’ll be able to comprehend it a little bit better.

      • I’m pretty certain that GZ’s story about going to Target was bull and he probably was out patrolling the neighborhood. That would be the only explanation as to why he was east of the entrance when he spotted TM. I mean come on, gas is over 4 bucks and he drives a truck. Why else would he take the scenic route? If he said that he was on patrol and armed, it would reflect the community in a bad light since they appointed him and even listed his number as a contact for suspicious incidents. He is trying to make it seem that he wasn’t patrolling and just bumped into TM by chance. I read somewhere that he made his wife dinner and needed to run around the corner to grab something from Target. He must live in a bad neighborhood if he can’t even go around the corner without a gun. I also wonder what sort of holster he had. In the police video, he had his shirt tucked in his pants. If his shirt was tucked in at the scene, you could probably see his holster/gun from a mile away. Who goes to Target like that?

        Despite what the media is saying, I do not believe that GZ is racist. Blacks have portrayed themselves in a bad light over the years but it seems like most blacks want to overlook it. I’m black myself but it sickens me when I see blacks with crazy face tattoos, sagging pants, and nasty attitudes. I recently saw a black man curse out his 3 year old and call him a MF just because he wouldn’t be quiet and it made me sick to my stomach. I think Geraldo’s comment about hoodies was in poor taste but the underlying message was that some blacks try to portray themselves as aggressive, gangster, and pimps. GZ said that TM had his hand in his pants so I’m almost positive that TM was sagging while walking. Did TM deserve to die that night? Hell to the no! I do believe that GZ was overzealous and unfairly associated TM with the other blacks who were burglarizing the homes. Unfortunately, his assumptions were wrong and he took a innocent boys life.

        • Gun owners take their guns everywhere. It’s a weird obsession. He needed to conceal the gun though so there probably wasn’t anything in plain site.

          The “fucking coons” comment and all the 911 calls reporting suspicious black individuals makes me believe there’s a little bit of racism in George’s heart.

      • Yea the coon’s part is a bit scary. I probably would have felt better if he just used the N word. I hope the truth is exposed either way!

      • The distance going straight up Retreat View versus going right on Long Oak and left on Twin Trees is actually almost identical, because of the way that Retreat View curves west before turning right. It’s basically a wash.

        So, here’s how the timings work:
        For the first minute, he’s on Twin Trees on the south side of the intersection with Retreat View. Martin is walking east on Retreat View from the point where Retreat View bends to the southwest (i.e., right near the cut where he entered The Retreat). It takes most of a minute at a normal pace to reach the clubhouse, so that matches with the timing if Zimmerman called right after spotting Martin popping out from the shadows of the west end of the third building on the north side of Retreat View (counting from the main entrance).

        Martin stops in front of the main entrance to the clubhouse, on Retreat View. He stares at Zimmerman for a few seconds, then continues on his way, in a path that takes him near the SUV. As Martin continues heading to the east on Twin Trees, he passes out of Zimmerman’s line of sight, because the view is blocked by the westernmost building in that block. That’s when Zimmerman backs his truck up around the corner to around where you put the blue rectangle.

        Martin realizes he’s being followed, and starts to run. I think he’s starting his run a bit to the west of where you show him, though.

        • Does he back his truck up during the call?!? At which point?

          And, as mentioned below…

          When Zimmerman calls 911, I have him identifying Trayvon ducking under the awning at the clubhouse and – in his opinion – looking suspicious.

          How/why do you have Zimmerman identifying Trayvon all the way down Retreat View Circle in your scenario?

          How dark was it? Could Zimmerman see the 400-500 feet – or whatever it was – in the rain at 7:10 pm without the aid of his headlights shining west in your scenario?

          What cut through is Zimmerman by in your parked truck scenario?

          Why wouldn’t Zimmerman say I am AT 1111 Retreat View Circle – right next to the clubhouse – in your scenario?

    • Also, how do we know George left home at 7:09ish pm for Target? I have seen chatter that he was – at some point that night – taking a trip to Target but I haven’t seen anything that said he left home at 7:09ish pm.

      • In answer to both questions:
        First, I agree that I would have expected him to go straight up Retreat View. But he couldn’t have done so if Martin was heading east and the rest of his description on the call was accurate. He had to have been going north on Twin Trees. Maybe he wanted to stop by the mailboxes for something? Drop off an outgoing letter, perhaps?

        Second, how do we know that he left at 7:09ish? Because his call to the police department began at 7:09:34. If I had to guess the exact time he pulled out of his garage, it’s probably 7:08:15-30.

        • When Zimmerman calls 911, I have him identifying Trayvon ducking under the awning at the clubhouse and – in his opinion – looking suspicious.

          How/why do you have Zimmerman identifying Trayvon all the way down Retreat View Circle in your scenario?

          How dark was it? Could Zimmerman see the 400-500 feet – or whatever it was – in the rain at 7:10 pm without the aid of his headlights shining west in your scenario?

          What cut through is Zimmerman by in your parked truck scenario?

          Why wouldn’t Zimmerman say I am AT 1111 Retreat View Circle Drive – right next to the clubhouse – in your scenario?

          Your timing of his trip to Target is speculation in my opinion. Maybe he went at 6:30 pm? 7-11 is on the way to/from Target. Did they cross paths before both returned to the gated community after 7 pm?

  53. So many people are saying things about situations as though they have zero experience or knowledge of them.
    Just for example, 1.” a small guy can’t beat up a larger guy” . Ask anyone who has been in a number of street fights or any cop, they’ll tell you a completely different story. I personally know of two cops who ended up in a hospital after being assaulted by a 15 yr old and a 16 yr old. 2. Trayvon was shot so “there had to be a lot of blood.” I have witnessed two shootings. There was no blood on the mens shirts in either case. I had to lift the shirts to actually see the bullet holes. One walked into a gas station and collapsed; don’t know what eventually happened to him. 3. “People don’t just hit others for no reason” Again, ask any cop. They will tell you it happens ALL the time. People do strange things. We will see it all play out in court if Zimmerman is even charged. Whether you like the gun laws or not, they are in place and must be enforced.

    • 1) A small guy can definitely beat up a big guy. A big guy can definitely beat up a small guy. I’ll guess – it’s only a guess – that I 17 year old, 140 pound kid is probably not actively looking to fight a 28 year old, 200 pound adult.

      2) Shoot somebody in the chest, but not a direct shot to the heart, and they’ll suffer/move around for a bit. If he died immediately – as almost all the 911 callers assume – the shot was to the heart. If the shot was to the heart, there was going to be an insane amount of blood.

      3) If Trayvon hit him, it was because Zimmerman was STALKING. In fact, I hope – but doubt – Trayvon whopped his ass a little bit.

      • And here is the problem with the confessed killer’s story, too many improbable things have to happen all in a very tight and contained time. Sure, a small guy can beat a big guy. In most match-ups between a big guy and small guy, the big guy wins…coulda woulda shoulda.

        When someone is shot, the majority of time, there is a blood that is visible. coulda woulda shoulda.

        So, Zimmerman and others expect you to believe that at least 10 things that are generally that either have a low probability of happening or next to impossible ALL happened on that night. One or two flukes, sure but his entire scenario is full of flukes.

        Equals a big ole like made out of whole clothe to me.

        • All that matters is the fact that Zimmerman stalked, harassed, preyed upon and eventually killed his unarmed neighbor who was retuning home with snacks.

          But, I know what you’re saying.

  54. Pingback: Construct your theory in the Zimmerman Martin case - Page 11

  55. interesting blog. I have a scenario i haven’t heard considered yet. read the whole thing. gz didn’t know tm was from neighborhood so he wouldn’t have thought he’d turn south between the houses, or that he’d go on to retreat circle and go south. more likely scenario is that gz would think he’d go to ne corner of community to hop over wall to get out and away (wall really low as google maps photo shows). if he thought this, he’d know he’d never catch him, possible he got back in vehicle and went past clubhouse and turned right on retreat view circle. when he didn’t see kid at corner figured he was still between houses, parked suv and went between houses, heading north looking for kid. makes sense he’d have gun out if he’s heading into dark area, especially if he thinks kid is armed. tm was probably waiting for pursuer to leave, then when all is quiet, heads south between houses. gz headed north and altercation occurs

  56. I might have missed this in your updates, but the previous reports of GZ and TM’s height/weight are a bit off.

    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/george-zimmerman-weighs-170-trayvon-martin-160

    According to the site in the link, George Zimmerman’s height is 5’9″ and he weighs 170. It’s true that he did weigh more during a previous arrest, but that was years ago.

    Trayvon Martin’s height is reported to be at least 6 feet; his family claims he was 6’2″. His weight was 160.

    So George Zimmerman wasn’t some guy who had about 100 lb on some cherub-faced kid–they were more closely matched in weight; with Treyvon at least 3, possibly 5 inches taller–depending on the report of height.

    Just don’t think I’m taking GZ’s side–I believe his use of lethal force was excessive. If he really felt the need to shoot someone…why not the kneecaps? Shooting in the air can also frighten someone to run away. Also, he’s known for flying off the handle. It would certainly suck to be GZ now because I feel he’ll be under arrest soon–but I’d prefer jail to the impending lynch mob.

    • Excellent points – thanks for the comment!

      If Zimmerman was one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life like Robert Zimmerman suggested to Piers Morgan, why was the ambulance coming for him called off?

  57. For those who want to know how dark it was have a look at this link,

  58. Ok, lets go with the scenario that TM was staking out some potential homes to burglarize. GZ seeing him as he is leaving for Target, he begins to watch him. TM sees GZ watching him and runs. GZ “These assholes always get away”, 911 “Are you following him?”, GZ “Yes”, 911 “We (Meaning Trained Law Enforcement as a whole) don’t NEED you to do that”, GZ “OK” as he exits his truck “Fucking Coons”! Then GZ tells 911 “Just have them (Police) call me and I will tell them my location”. Right there you have proven RACISM and RACIAL PROFILING, and I think we can all come to a logical conclusion that GZ intended to apprehend TM till the authorities arrived.

    My Point is, do you all really think that GZ does not harbor some stereotypical racism? Do you all really believe he was just looking for an address when he left his car? And if you have enough common sense to see he was going after TM do you really think he would do so without his gun drawn? My other point is, do you all think that even if TM “was up to something, or high” that gives GZ the right to apprehend him and kill him for resisting?

    I have been pretty obsessed with this case as I can see many of you have too but I really have been trying to find a way to justify what GZ has done and I can’t. As a matter of fact I initially though this would be a negligent manslaughter case WHEN he is arrested, but the more I read, research, and hear UNEDITED 911 calls, I have come to the conclusion that this is at the least 2nd degree murder, but really it should be a hate crime. GZ is an obsessed weirdo and I am sure when this goes to trial we will be hearing a lot more sordid stories about poor GZ!

    Another thing, TM was no gangster. TM may have been a rebellious teen going through what many of US have been through but I must say his parents (although divorced) seem to be co-parenting, from the pictures TM looked well dressed and might I add not in urban attire or the baggy, saggy cloths we all associate with young black gang members, he was raised playing football, went to aviation school, and might I add look pretty comfortable on a horse! Maybe some of you should survey some of these young black gang members and ask how many of them have parents that co-parent, play football, have active fathers in their lives, and ride horses.

    Come on people if you can not see what is right in your face, maybe it’s time you come to the realization that you are defending GZ because you too think the way GZ did that faithful day!

    • Good points and I don’t disagree. Thanks for the comment(s)!

      So, even IF Trayvon was on something, that doesn’t give Zimmerman the right to stalk/execute the teen especially after the mad man was told to basically cut it out.

      • This whole thing played out within minutes. GZ, being a grown man and neighborhood watch CAPTAIN should be held to a higher standard than TM on how to conduct himself in this situation. I have no doubt that TM felt threatened and when he realized GZ had a gun [in is holster or in his hand) he was fighting for his life!

        GET REAL PEOPLE!

        P.S. Although my heart goes out to both of TM parents, I can only imagine how his Father must feel. He was just trying to get home!

  59. How about this scenario:

    As TM passes GZ (sitting in his truck) walking home:

    GZ: Hi, how are you? Sorry to bother you but I am the neighborhood watch captain, it is kind of dangerous walking through here at night, do you live close by?

    TM: Yes

    GZ: Ok, be careful because there have been a lot burglaries in the neighborhood, do you live close by?

    TM: Yes

    GZ: Ok, good. BTW my name is George, what’s your Name?

    TM: Trayvon

    GZ: Where exactly do you live?

    TM: Tells him where

    GZ: Ok, have a good night

    *GM thought TM was running to exit the community and get away, this scenario would have let him know that TM actually lived there!

    *As you can see I have answered for TM not to speculate as to what he would say, but if he had been defiant than I could see GZ calling 911 but still WAIT IN THE CAR!

  60. Zimmerman was having his skull beat into a concrete sidewalk and was screaming for HELP. Like me, if I had a gun, he shot the man who was out of control, to protect his life.

    • Doug,

      Your assumption is that GZ kindly identified himself to TM and his weapon was not drawn I take it. No, He profiled, stalked, followed and confronted TM to subdue him till the police called his cell phone to get his location.

      So in that case it is safe to assume that you think the following:

      GZ found TM and politely told him to wait for police and TM attacked him.

      Or is it more logical that GZ aggressively tried to subdue TM and logically he would have his weapon drawn otherwise why even carry a weapon while patrolling the community in the first place. TM not having time to beg a stranger not to shoot him, feared for his life and therefore “STOOD HIS GROUND”

      Doug, you are TEAM GZ because you harbor the same bias racial feelings GZ does. I could respect your opinion more if you admitted that in your post!

      One thing that is not disputed here:

      TM was on his way home from the store, not staking out the community for some criminal activity!

    • And before you or anyone else assumes or have enough nerve to ask:

      I am a white 47 year old, college educated women.

    • There isn’t much evidence of a severe beating of GZ by TM.

      Actually, an ambulance planned to bring GZ to Hospital has been cancelled (The audio of the cancellation has been made public recently).

      Basically, officer Ricardo Ayala placed GZ in his vehicle, Sanford FD took care of him in there and decided he had nothing justifying an hospitalization. So, the ambulance has been cancelled.

      The scuffle is heard for more than 40sec. Factoring in the time it took for witness to call 911, we can imagine the fight took 1min or more. It seems clear to me TM was on top of GZ at some point during that fight. Yet, during that minute all he did to GZ was superficial.

      Finally, there is no evidence of any sort about who’s the aggressor, and if the aggressor was threatening the life of his victim. My personal opinion is that stalking someone is a form of aggression. TM has no reason to feel safe with GZ chasing him in the streets by night.

  61. Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as

    1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable “heat of passion”

    or

    2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

    Hate Crime

    In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, sex, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]
    A hate crime is a category used to described bias-motivated violence: “assault, injury, and murder on the basis of certain personal characteristics: different appearance, different color, different nationality, different language, different religion.

  62. Applaud your effort to try to use a diagram and updated full tape. Clearly Z’s truck is parked at or near the curve approx 20-30 yds from the point where fight happens based off this tape, (I’ll explain). Z is following instructions of the ofc as he begins to report what T is doing. The from the 2:08 point when T runs it is pretty obvious he went around the corner towards his house as Z said he headed towards the back exit. It is unclear how far he went though as Z lost sight of him.

    2:12 you can hear truck door open as the ofc asks him which way he is running. (means two things up until that point he is sitting in his truck not following and he is responding to the ofc question by getting out) I submit to you the length of one of those bldgs could easily have been passed in the 20 or so sec at a jog that pass before the ofc realizes he is following and said they didn’t need that. That doesn’t mean Z would have dis-obeyed instructions. It also doesn’t make T a criminal.

    Z remains on the phone explaining locations etc from 2:32 to 4:12 mark. Z is breathing hard through his nose at first then voice returns under control quickly so he wasn’t running too hard. He appears to have stopped as he responds to the ofc’s questions.

    Z tells the ofc his truck is parked at a cut through which is where he would have exited. This would place the vehicle at the curve and on the trail leading to the L past the spot of the fight. 911 calls begin approx 1 min after he hangs up. This gives Z approx 1/2 a minute to walk up the path to the point of the fight.

    (T could have ducked in anywhere along the path out of the rain Z may have even jogged past him.)

    Gf stmts indicate Treyvon initiated the contact verbally Z replies and scuffle ensues. We haven’t seen the stmt yet but this is also seems to have been Z’s stmt.

    The most relevant part of the story is below:

    From the recent pictures of the back of Z’s head it does look to have trauma. You can assume there will be much better pictures of those wounds as well as some form of a broken nose or his attorney would have never said it.

    Funeral director claims no signs of a scuffle on T and Z has the only wounds. Lines on the back of his head is consistent that his head may have been on the edge of the sidewalk.

    At least one victim sees them on the ground close enough to distinguish who is on top and on bottom. No mention of the gun even as Z asks John (witness) for help.

    Police could have tried to say it wasn’t warranted use of force but with only one consistent set of facts avail the prosecutor would have realized the stand your ground statute would apply. Pushing the case would be preventing their chance that an inconsistent statement would later be made by Z. That statement is highly unlikely after all that has happened. If they charge him now or not the defense will say ….Punch to the nose can be lethal as can hitting someones head off the concrete. One doesn’t have to wait to be crippled before they defend themself.

    Neither party necessarily has to have been a bad person. Full version of the call reveals little to do with race. (there always remains the possibility of some outstanding fact from a report that the police are holding back to develop a case but as it stands the case would not be very good)

    • Per your opening line, I think you saw the following link but the rest of your comment sort of doesn’t make sense so maybe not…

      Zimmerman’s truck is located at the cut through in the above link. Moreover, and most importantly, the timing from the 911 call makes sense as diagramed.

      I know there’s a ton of text in the original posting and comments but maybe take another look.

      If you’d rather not, at least check out the last paragraph here…

      http://m.gawker.com/5898036/new-evidence-contradicts-zimmermans-claim-of-a-violent-fight-with-trayvon-martin

      And, don’t forget this…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

      It’s not often that a guy hammering another guy cries out for help (several times), right?

      • Now have Z scenario in a more aggressive posture. Due to the 40 seconds or so of screaming now presumably coming from Trayvon. Add in 40 prior seconds to box in the time fairly well. Given the eyewitness have to figure screaming and both on the ground at least until right before the shooting. One guess is that Z got Trayvon in a headlock. Left elbow. Z then falls under Trayvon while still maintaining the advantage. Explaining the cries and the bump. Also the positions might have been more side by side . From a distance of say 30 feet in the dark the far person might appear to be on top. Would be useful to see the relative positions. Also falling face down suggests Trayvon was moving away. Possibly breaking the headlock? And also Zs general shape seems much more robust. 190 versus 160 lbs. Also there is no reason to assume Trayvon knew about the gun until perhaps midway in the cries. Any change in Trayvon’s tone midway?

  63. Who is screaming on the tape means very little in this case. Let me explain:

    The argument that Z doesn’t have much injury fails (even though I think there will be evidence Z did in this circumstance). The reason why is injury is not an element of the right to use self defense. Instead only a reasonable apprehension of fear for your life or “great bodily harm”, need be shown, in most states.

    For instance, if my client’s version is that he is punched by an aggressor in the soft tissue and cartilage of the face with sufficient force to knock my client to the ground (undisputed in this case), I am have already arrived a self defense situation that would warrant deadly force. When the aggressor then climbs on top of me continuing the assault my life is at risk immediately. I am in danger of having my nose cartilage rammed into my brain… instant death. Anyone who has been the victim of such a punch can attest that it is a very disorienting event. Death a factual possibility.hence my clients reasonable fear of great bodily harm has already manifested itself.

    His nose is reportedly broke. The attorney in this case had no obligation to bring this fact to the public. As I told you before, the injury is not required to act in self defense, only a reasonable apprehension of fear or great bodily harm is required. If it turns out his nose was broke it only underscores the reasonableness of the self defense.

    Z here has not only one reasonable fear but two. One punch in the nose can be lethal. One head hitting a side walk can be lethal. Repeated hits off the cement magnifies the danger. Just because the egg doesn’t split with the first crack to the pan doesn’t mean it will survive repeated blows. When I was in college both of those events did occur resulting in two deaths from what some would allege were otherwise simple fights. Size does not matter but even the size in this case supports the idea that Z fear is reasonable.

    Incredibly there is no evidence Z ever attacked back at all other than wrestling with his assailant who sits on top of him. This may be because he isn’t violent, or might just be because he is incapacitated from the blows to the head and nose cartilage and or just terrible at fighting. His terribleness at fighting hand to hand is not at issue. The only thing relevant is the reasonableness of his actions. Nobody has to wait until they are completely physically disabled to avail themself the defense of deadly force to thwart an assault. You don’t have to wait to be a victim, if your fear is reasonable. This persons fear was not only reasonable it was a reality that great bodily harm had already occurred.

    Checked your links. The truck could very well be about where you place it but a yards further away to towards the middle of the section between the clubhouse and the cut through at the curve but you would have to assume that Z is lying to the dispatch about information they are collecting to locate him (makes little sense) Z tells dispatch his truck is parked at a cut through so I am not sure what purpose there is in not accepting this as accurate. (maybe you have a picture of it parked and Z’s description is off by a few feet?)

    I didn’t devote much time to racial profiling because it was obvious race was not used to profile a suspect for detention or arrest. Z made a call to police to investigate someones presence in a gated community, the dispatch asked him questions sufficient to identify the person, It should be stated racial profiling and a racially motivated hate crime are not one in the same. There seems to be no racial motive to have pulled the trigger in this case at all. I believe the family has already come to this realization. I think poor reporting has lead to this false premise.

    Lastly on the link regarding the voice arguments… that sort of evidence would have to pass a daubert test in court and here is why it is unlikely to do so: http://crayfisher.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/up-next-astrology-experts/ for the sake of argument imagine it comes in (to evidence) what does it prove? All account still have Zimmerman on the bottom trying to escape and Treyvon on top of him and all of the injuries are suffered by Z. The fact he was screaming throughout an attack would be interesting but doesn’t change the facts at all. I used to scream when I tackled someone in football. I have seen people scream out of fear while they beat the crap out of someone. The scream itself means little given the unchangeable fact that T has no injuries that would explain him screaming. Witness said it was Z screaming for help. It could have been them both, but one fact doesn’t change and that is there seems to be wounds on Z and not T to support the use of deadly force.

    Forgive the length of this post and much respect to everyone who has been impacted by this tragic situation.

    • Why was the ambulance coming for Zimmerman called off? That doesn’t happen if his injuries are life threatening.

      You’re basically saying that Zimmerman had every right to stalk a teenager. After stalking Trayvon, Zimmerman then had the right to use lethal force because of a broken nose caused by a FIST FIGHT. Really?

      How many bloodless broken noses have you seen? If his nose is broken and blood is gurgling down his throat, how is Zimmerman able to repeatedly scream help even though – without any doubt – the voice screaming help isn’t is?

      http://m.npr.org/story/149833051?url=/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/04/02/149833051/trayvon-martin-case-voice-calling-for-help-isnt-zimmermans-experts-say

      • That problem is that the law states that you have the right to use lethal force even if you perceive that your life is in danger. For example, If I am running at you with a sword, you wouldn’t have to wait for me to cut you in order to defend yourself. You could shoot me before I reached you and that would be self defense. GZ will have to prove to a jury that he feared for his life and that fear was reasonable given the circumstances. If a 3 year old baby was running at you with a sword, you wouldn’t be able to kill him with self defense because the fear wouldn’t be reasonable.

    • Ambulance:
      Why was an ambulance’s called off? SFD pronounced T dead and Z was treated and cleared to be taken to the police dept by SFD.

      Police report indicates Z was handcuffed and placed him in rear of patrol car where Z was treated by SFD. SFD = Sanford Fire Dept. Below is the police report indicating the SFD Rescue 38 responded to the scene and pronounced T dead at 19:30. Ofc Smith noted Z was bleeding from the nose and back of the head and back was wet. (it doesn’t state how much blood) After being cleared by SFD Z was then transported to police dept.

      http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-03/69081607-29132322.pdf

      Stalking? Z never moves during the call until Trevon runs.
      You refer to Z as having stalked T. So lets review:
      7:09:34 PM.The call to dispatch non emergency begins.

      7:09:50 (16 seconds into the tape) The “best” address he can give to the dispatch is 111 Retreat Circle indicating T is at or near that location standing/walking around in the rain Z thinks he may be on drugs. So Z is located where he can view him.

      7:10:11 (27 seconds into tape) Dispatch asks if T is white/black/or hispanic Z responds he “looks” black (29 sec) Did you see what he was wearing?(31 sec) Ya a dark hoodie or a grey hoodie and a pair of jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes (40 sec mark) He again describes him standing around looking at all the houses.

      7:10:19 PM (48 sec mark) Z indicates T is staring at him. At this point it is safe to assume Z located between T (who is at or near the clubhouse) and the row of condo’s where the trail begins on your map because

      7:10:32 PM Z states 111 address is the clubhouse Dispatch ask T is at the clubhouse and Z responds: “Ya, and now he’s com­ing towards me.” (1:01 mark on the tape) Hand in waistband. Z confirms race as T gets closer: “Ya he is a black male” (1:10 mark) button on his shirt. Dispatch how old: Z: late teens somethings wrong with him (pause) “ya he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands I don’t know what his deal is” (1:27 mark)

      Dispatch: okay just let me know if he does anything ok? (1:30 mark) Z get somebody over here. Dispatch ya we got em on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. z responds “okay” (1:37 mark) these assholes always get away, more directions “straight in and don’t turn and make a left, shit he is running” (2:08 mark)

      Dispatch he is running? which way is he running? (Door opens 2:10 mark Z can be first heard exiting his parked vehicle)

      ++++Z never moved from his stationary position viewing T until the Dispatch asked which way is he running+++ at the 2:15 mark Z states towards the other entrance of the neighborhood dispatch which entrance is he heading towards? response the back entrance 2:20 dispatch detects Z may be following him and asks Z responds yes Dispatch we don’t need you to do that” Z responds okay 2:28+++

      Z hasn’t racially profiled he responded to to question by Dispatch
      Z isn’t stalking he responded to the Dispatch inquiry as to where T is headed,
      Z stops when he is told that isn’t needed begins answering dispatch questions indicating he has lost sight of him and doesn’t know where he is.
      +++Stalking doesn’t apply+++ Z is stationary for all but 20 seconds and is only reporting where he ran

      Lethal force
      Lethal force may be used in this situation as explained previously. He is knocked to the ground by an unknown attacker approximately 1/2 foot taller than him and the assault continues for over a minute resulting in his head apparently being propelled off the sidewalk repeatedly. Serious bodily injury has already occurred and Z’s perception he is in peril is reasonable under the known facts.

      Lack of Blood – in video is red herring
      You make several assumptions about your expectation regarding the wounds production of blood. Smith noted blood in both locations nose and back of the head in the report. Smith has no motivation to falsify his observations. The SFD treated Z in the rear of his vehicle and will have also filled out a report. More than a half hour elapses prior to reaching the police station during which time scrapes on the head caused by contact from the cement could have easily coagulated similar to the nose. Result injuries hard to detect from a garage video.

      On this point, you seem to leave reason, why? because they would have likely recorded the wounds of Z via close-up pictures etc at the police station. This video is just one record of the appearance and it would not be the best way to record those injuries. Presuming his lawyer would go on national tv to state his medical records will also confirm a break contemplates a conspiracy that would include policemen, firemen, and Doctor(s) and other medical professionals, coordinating their reports with witnesses recollections. — highly unlikely.

      The media unfortunately has created a narrative (via editing audio) that the facts don’t support. That is why newspaper accounts aren’t normally admissible.

  64. hi again….i haven’t studied maps to know the street names and such so bear with me. But do we know Zimmermans car was facing west? Could he left his house and headed north and seen trayvon cutting through at that point, or driven up behind trayvon as he was walking from the north west about to turn south past the sport centre. I think it’s safe to say he would have been watching the kid for a while before he called the authorities. Maybe as trayvon walked toward the sport centre zimmerman drove past a little and parked, keeping an eye on him in the mirror while calling 911, or maybe he had even driven past and turned the car around to watch. I don’t really know but it makes sense that he would watch him for a bit before calling the cops and if he was driving to target and saw martin enter through the north west or even drove up behind him as he was walking north wests before he got to the sport centre and then positioned his car to keep an eye on the kid while he called cops. GZ might have driven past a few times just to see where this kid was heading and then taken up position to call the cops.

    • I’m thinking Zimmerman had to be parked by a cut through. He had to be able to see Trayvon AT the clubhouse as mentioned at the :55 mark. He had to be able to see Trayvon leave the clubhouse and walk towards him as mentioned at the :58 mark. He had to be facing west because it was dark and headlights were needed to see the clubhouse at that distance.

      In my opinion, given the timing on the 911 call and what’s mentioned above, this location for Zimmerman’s parked truck makes sense.

      • hi, i agree that he parked near the cut off, i was just wondering if he had seen martin a lot earlier than when he made the call. Maybe he was driving towards north on his street and saw martin cut through where you have him entering on the north west side. Might have driven past him, done a u-turn and had another look. He might have seen the direction he was heading and parked far enough infront that he could see him but also make the call. Although i do think that he must have followed in the car at one stage enough for martin to tell the girl on the phone because she told him to run, he did that while zimmerman was still in the car so if he knew he was being followed (and he must have been on the phone to the girl when he ran onto the cut off because they were on the phone for about 5 minutes). I don’t think Zim was parked at that spot the whole time, either he positioned himself there after checking trayvon out a few times or he was parked closer to the sport centre, near the mailboxes and might have let trayvon get a bit in front befor slowly driving up closer etc. I don’t think he just happened to be parked when he saw trayvon, he was driving somewhere, saw him, went back for another look, parked and called the police. He probably didn’t even turn off the engine and maybe kept slowly creeping up behind trayvon to keep an eye on him.

        • I know there is a ton of text in the comments/posting above – there’s absolutely no way I would read it all if this wasn’t my blog – but Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon on his way to/from Target.

          To recap…

          Zimmerman was said to have left his house for Target that night. That’s supposedly why he was out and about in the first place.

          The closest Target is northwest of the gated community. Zimmerman would have taken Oregon Ave west, Reinhart Rd southwest, and then Towne Center Blvd north to get to Target.

          To get to 7/11, Martin would have been going west on Oregon Ave and then southwest on Reinhart Rd. We can all figure out their return directions to the gated community. :-) Hint: They were taking the same paths to/from their destinations of 7/11 and Target.

          As to why he was parked where I indicate here…

          I’m not sure. We’ll find out soon enough though if/when the case goes to trial.

  65. the marks on GZ head could have just been part of the scuffle that we know happened. They were on the ground, he could have knocked his head a couple of times on the pavement but his head certainly wasn’t smashed repeatedly. Where is the blood on him? I dare say they were just wrestling a bit and trayvon probably got the upper hand and was getting up and backing off when he got shot which is why there is no blood on george. Not sure how trayvon got in that position on the ground though, if GZ rolled him over then one arm would be under him (the arm that remained on the ground) but the other arm would surely be out. This is bizzare which is why it is so unthinkable that it was not investigated further….it doesn’t add up.

  66. me again, i don’t mean to be a pest but i was just reading the interpretations of GZ fear or whatever when he was talking to the dispatcher. When i first listened to the phone call from GZ i hadn’t heard about this case, i just read something on a gossip blog that said oh gee this is really sad this kid was unarmed and got shot for no reason and here is the 911 call. So i didn’t know any of the details when i started listening to the call made by GZ. Well, the impression i got from that call was that this kid was up to no good, the tone of GZ’s voice was cool and calculated and suspicious, even when he said “hes coming this way” “he’s coming to check me out”, i didn’t hear fear, i heard suspicion, slight cockiness and i was thinking well it really sounds like this kid is up to something. I must admit that on the first listen i didn’t quite understand where GZ was talking about and thought maybe he was in the sport centre grounds sneaking around because i didn’t know the details so it sounded sketchy to me. GZ really made this kid out to be a suspicious character and when i heard that he was merely walking home and this guy was watching him from his car and then got out of his car and followed him i was shocked…..the shady suspicious character was the creepy calculated voice on the phone who made even the simplest of gestures sound to anyone listening (who didn’t know the truth of the situation yet) that something shady was going on. He wasn’t scared when he was the big man watching the “late teen” in his truck, he knew that when the kid was coming towards him to “check him out” it was just because he had to walk past cause GZ was in his path, he wasn’t scared when he got out of his car to follow this kid, and he looked pretty relaxed about the situation when he was taken to the police station consindering he was just in fear of his life and got beaten to pulp and then killed a kid.

    • You’re definitely not being a pest. Thanks again for the comments!

      Zimmerman sounded anxious during the call in my opinion with the peak of his anxiousness happening around the 1:30 mark of his 911 call as noted here…

    • GZ’s 911 call was a cover his ass tactic after TM. We really don’t know who threw the first punch or who put their hands on the other first. Dead man cannot talk. The girlfriend’s testimony suggests that GZ could have been the aggressor but she didn’t see what actually happened. TM’s headphones could have fallen off because he threw a punch. This case should really give pause to any states that have stand your ground laws. We live in a country with a significant population of people who are xenophobic, homophobic and misogynist. This gives jerks and folks with limited social skills the ability to kill people with little or no provocation and under the flimsiest of excuses. Basically to be bullies with guns. There is at least one other reported aggressive encounter between GZ and a neighbor. I will try to find it and post it here.

      Please note the funeral director indicated that TM’s body showed no signs that he had been fighting someone. If TM was banging GZ’s head there should be flesh/DNA evidence under the nails or on his fingers. If he punched GZ there should be knuckle bruises or a bent Arizona ice tea can. Or GZ punched himself.

      With no eyewitness to the start of the physical scuffle it makes it exceptionally difficult to prove GZ’s malfeasance. This sucks big time. They both have the right to stand their ground but the one who will prevail is the one with the gun. I am with Bill Maher. Our gun laws suck.

    • Jo,

      What you posted was exactly my impression on my first listen of his 911 call and might i add when he claimed to be the one screaming just before the shot that too put some doubt in my head. Now that I have had a chance to research and actually see the path Trayvon needed to get home, the fact that Trayvon RAN in the direction of his house shows that Trayvon was scared. The more that I learn about this case the more frightening I find it and how calculated George is, very scary!

      It amazes me that George’s camp is painting a picture that Trayvon was following him back to his truck and jumped him, why would he run in the direction of his home and turn around and jump this guy. There was a confrontation that was initiated by George, he just didnt bank on Trayvon fighting for his life!

      If it were not Trayvon, it would have been someone else. George was obssessed!

      • i agree with you, he was running, he tried to lose the guy following him. If they got in a fight and gz hit his head on the ground then to bad, that’s what you get. If anybody rang the police and said “there is a big guy following me in his car” then that big guy would be arrested as a predator. Where i come from if a kid claims someone is following or behaving a threatening manner it is taken very seriously because you just don’t know what these weirdos are intending to do. Even if a kid claims a man stopped in his car and tried to talk to them they put the word out on the news to make other people aware there may be a predator in their area. But because trayvon never got to the chance to report this guy, or maybe didn’t take it too seriously until he was in a struggle for his life, it is the creep who follows the kid that gets the law on his side. Now trayvon didn’t know this guy was playing super cop and might have thought he was a pervert, but GZ knew that trayvon was a kid, he described him as being in his teens.

      • Exactly, GZ must be held to a higher standard then TM. The point is, GZ did not know anything about TM, he obsessed and painted a picture in his mind of who TM was and this time the ASSHOLE/COON was not going to get away, he was going to apprehend him for the police! He said that TM is up to no good, high, coming towards him, checking him out, has something in his waistband, and now he’s running! He came up with all of that with in minutes! When in actuality TM was simply walking home from 711 talking to his girlfriend on the phone! WOW, the kid had to die for that? TM was walking by his truck on his way home not checking him out! When TM got close enough for GZ to see the button on his shirt GZ could have politely identify himself and he would have realize TM belonged there. What people don’t want to admit is, GZ was profiling, judging, stalking, and eventually chased TM and killed him! It is not rocket science! He was obsessed and he finally snapped! If Trayvon took the first blow or not he was STANDING HIS GROUND!

      • Elsewhere above, the police told TM’s father that Zimmerman had told them that TM approached him in his car. He said that he rolled down his window and TM asked him why he was following him. GZ replied with a denial, he says he told TM that he was NOT FOLLOWING HIM, and with that he rolled up his window and TM walked on.

        Here, I’ve found the clipping I made:

        BOMBSHELL LINK [STILL WORKING PLEASE READ]

        For example, he says the screams were his, however we now know they were not. He accuses

        Trayvon of starring at him, coming towards him, hands in waist, etc. which are the very

        things the confessed murderer was doing.

        http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

        Note (summary): At this link the Father Tracy explains what the Police told him, about what Zimmerman said. Zimmerman then claimed that TM had approached his car, he rolled down the window. TM then asked why GZ was following him, GZ DENIED HE WAS FOLLOWING TM, then rolls up the window. When TM walks on, GZ then gets out of the car and continues to follow TM.

  67. These are all good comments. I always thought the racial slur was mistaken for the “asshole” comment that GZ made. Then, I read one of the post above that said the slur was made when he gets out of the car and that does sound like the f c slur. It’s hard to understand but quite possible.

  68. I don’t have time to figure it out and the sad thing is we will either get no prosecution and no truth–or we will get a prosecution “proving” a scenario that may or may not have happened. In the end very little about this will be about truth, justice, reconciliation or healing.

    We will have had two young men (warts, attitudes and all) who essentially stumble over each other in the dark and fear.

    We genuinely have responsibility to each other, to strangers and to neighbors, and to those we love to be circumspect about how we lead our lives. One can be minding their own business one minute and become a stalker the next and the stalked the minute after that and then in the morgue.

    This is true as individuals and as nations.It is sad to say–but the mess of this situation is not that much different from situations which could as easily result in the nuclear destruction of all humanity.

    • I don’t think this is a case that is hard to figure out. The only thing the state and feds have to do is figure out what to charge him with and that is what the investigation will lead to. GZ must be cross examined, if he even has the balls to testify. If he does not testify that will speak volumes and if he does he better be telling the truth because they are going to rip him apart.

      Had GZ not made the comments he did in that 911 call I could see him just being concern but it was way beyond that and this is the foundation for how he approached TM, I for one will be following the trial on this one.

  69. I had many preconceived views of what happened that night between TM & GZ. One of those wrong views was that GZ saw TM walking, stopped on the spot and called police. As for many of us, it later became clear to me that the two men met at least once before the call. I wrote my views on about that above: TM was followed by GZ on Retreat View Cir minutes before the police call.

    Today, I wondered if there would be other preconceived views. The one that came to mind is that TM called his GF only once at 7:12pm and talked with her almost to the end of his life. I raised that question after re-reading that article from ABCnews (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV)

    Here is her account of events:

    “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run.”

    Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

    “Trayvon said, ‘What are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn’t answer the phone.”

    Now that I’m certain TM & GZ met before GZ’s Police call, it occurs to me that TM’s GF is talking about two different events recounted by TM during two different calls.

    In the first call, GZ is watching TM and stalking him before his 911 call. This is when TM put his hoodie on. TM may have lost GZ a first time and went for hiding at or near the Club House. So, GZ parked his truck on Twin Trees Ln waiting for TM to come out. GZ will eventually call police.

    The second call would be after TM ran as reported by GZ in his call. This is where TM GZ says “Eventually, he would run, thinking that he managed to escape…”.

    So, what could be the evidences for what I’m claiming above? Honestly, there is no direct evidence. But I would bet you that Martins’ Lawyers haven’t disclosed it all to media. However, I’ve found some information supporting my claim:
    1) There are articles stating that TM spent 5h on the phone on his last day (ex. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2017887566.html). I’m not surprise by that since he was a teenager. On top of that, he was to be away from GF for days,
    2) The ABCnews report shows photos of the GF’s T-mobile log. ABCnews hides caller # so you can’t tell who is calling. However, They show the moment of the calls. There, you can see at least two incoming calls, one at 7:04p & one at 7:12p on Feb 26th. I have always assumed ABC was claiming that only the 7:12pm call is the one from TM. It is likely that he also called her at 7:04p.
    3) From the same photo of TM’s GF’s t-mobile phone log, you can see that there is no more call until March 02 at noon or midnight. This is an emergency call (911). So, no one has called her for days after TM’s death.
    4) There are more incoming calls after that emergency call and their # isn’t hidden. That suggests, that only TM’s number was actually hidden.

    The point I’m trying to make here is that GZ has probably been after TM for a significant while before his 911 call.

    • one analysis claims it says “f’in cold”, as it was some 63 degrees in Sanford that rainy night and Zimmerman had stepped out of his car.

      • I’ve also heard []oon. In any cases, I don’t buy into the racism story.
        Instead, I’m more questioning GZ’s judgment which seems to be blurred by some sort of paranoia.

        All along his police call, GZ depict TM has a someone to fear, a junky up to no good. He even sound like he fears him at some point in the tape (around 1’30”).

        The leaked statement GZ made to police paints TM as a gangster. TM confronts him, punches him threatens to kill him and dies saying “you got me”.

        What we know about Trayvon Martin isn’t really in line with it. The only element of information that could line up with GZ’s picture is that traces of pot has been found in his belonging at school. He never had any trouble with police (that would have been out by now). His troubles at school have never been violence related.
        More importantly, on the night of his passing, was he on drug? Have we found anything stolen on him? Was there any tool even just a flash light that would suggest he was up to some break ins? No, Sanford PD would have disclosed all that to stop the criticism toward them. What they did put out his a bag of skittles, some ice tea and $22 in cash. Moreover, he was on a logical path home from the convenient store he went when he was spotted by GZ.

        At this point, there is nothing in Trayvon that looks like the picture George Zimmerman painted.

        What about the schuffle?
        He claims he was the one crying for help. Apparently two independent experts and a few witnesses disagree.
        He said he was being badly beaten. The emergency folks thought no wound deserved more treatment beyond cleaning when they cancelled the ambulance. The images of GZ escorted by police show nothing serious,not even a kid band aid for some cuts.

        Seriously, everything George Zimmerman said, before and after the scuffle, concerning Trayvon Martin seem to be blown out of proportion.

        I’m of the ones who believe the whole stuff was an accident. but, yet I think GZ was responsible for what happened.

      • Z didn’t say f*in cold. It might have been rainy and 63 degrees out but I live in the next county over and it wasn’t so cold that a person would comment on it much less describe it as f*in cold out. It hasn’t been cold all this last winter, we had a very mild one. Whether Z says f*in goon, coon or punks I can’t really say, but he wasn’t commenting on the weather.

      • i don’t buy it. In the context of the call why would he all of a sudden mention the cold….then he knows why trayvons hoodie is up, then he knows why trayvon is under the awnings or why he perhaps ran. GZ wasn’t concerned with the call, only the issue at hand. If he was cold or concerned about the cold then it makes it all the more disturbing why he found TM’s actions to be suspicious.

      • I thought Serino’s report of Zimmerman’s story to the Martin’s had some significantly different details than the account narrative Zimmerman’s family has been reporting. I leave it to you to pull and recreate what you feel is significant and post here.

      • yeah sounds like george has been watching too many westerns. Its not a john wayne movie and he’s not The Duke, he should have minded his own damn business and let the kid walk down the damn street. So sad.

  70. Interesting map that also show Z’s house in relation to the other locations. I don’t know how accurate it is but I haven’t noticed Z’s house your maps (could have missed it)

    http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/trayvon-travels-jpeg-map.jpg?w=640&h=264

    This would seem to allow the possibility of the evolving narrative in the article. As Z theoretically could have arrived at the clubhouse area from a different road than where he eventually parks.

    Disclaimer: Call described in the “grio.com” article isn’t indicated in here http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf
    (Note: this pdf on pg 46 seems to refer to the later call by Z. as it reflects radio transmissions of the description of T to ofc’s in route
    It is my understanding this call (we all have heard) was made to a non emergency number rather than the 911 emergency number as the pdf link is titled. How could this be? one possibility is this history represents an attempt to respond to a specific FOIA request and as a result is mislabeled and is later posted on their website. The transmissions noted refer to radio transmissions to the ofc’s presumably as the info is received via telephone. In either scenario it doesn’t look like a 911 transcript, but more like a history of transmissions to officers based off 911 AND non emergency calls since Zi’s description of T is mentioned.)

    — above document is confusing but appears to go back several years to quantify number of calls to this area.

    (found above call history on in this blog http://www.logarchism.com/2012/04/02/trayvon-martin-timeline-of-february-26/)

  71. According to father… it’s not my son

    http://www.wesh.com/news/30692415/detail.html#ixzz1qBF29ecJf

    There have also been differing accounts about whom witnesses heard crying for help that night, but the lead detective on the case says he played a recording of that voice for Martin’s father and the Miami man said the voice was not his son’s. POSTED: 10:04 am EDT March 16, 2012

    Haven’t heard this in the MSM…although nbc had link to this article on their site they removed it:

    This would go along way in creating “reasonable doubt” as to who is crying out on the tape.

    • i see what you’re saying but i don’t think it will ultimately matter without proof and experts etc. He might have been in denial at the time not wanting to believe it was his kid yelling, same for when the mother heard the tapes and cried that that was her son and left the room. Maybe she just assumed that was her son since he was the one that was dead. I think all the experts etc will weigh in on it and unfortunately i don’t think we will ever really know who it was, only two people know that, one isn’t talking and the other one can’t. I hope someone gets to the bottom of it for this family, for their son and for everyone else who has really taken this childs death to heart.

    • That has not been substantiated or reported anywhere. The common report is that after many requests the parents with their attorney presentvwere finally played the 911 tapes. His mother ran out the room crying saying that was her son. The Grio story re the evolving narrative listed in response 85 details the account of how the Martins got to hear the 911 tapes.

  72. I have another analysis: It’s possible that TM noticed GZ staking him out before he entered under the Clubhouse awnings. TM crossed the street and took Twin Trees going left as indicated by GZ,s call to 911 dispatch. After TM passed close by the vehicle he saw GZ who was looking at him. At this point he told his girlfriend that he thought this man was following him. She then prompted him to run which he did. It could be TM spooked out and why he ran. Instead of turning right going south between the back entrance toward his home in open view and to prevent leading GZ directly to his dads girlfriends house and giving away the address, he decided to go straight to Retreat View Circle and go south a few yards to shake GZ off. (See your picture above that shows the tracked route and the entrance into the back after the first set of houses) He wanted to make sure the coast was clear and then proceed to his house from there. It was here he and GZ came face to face and the altercation took place. This is when TM asked GZ if he was following him. He then saw GZ indiscretely holding a gun and became afraid. If GZ was in arms reach TM would try to avert the gun away from him rather than run again with a gunned man behind him. It was at this point TM lunged at him to avoid being shot. The struggle left them both on the ground, with GZ’s head hitting the cement. In the little time while TM was holding back GZ’s arm trying to avoid being shot, TM was screaming for help. It seems a little far fetched how GZ says he was laying on the ground while being beaten half to death he could take out his gun with his finger on the trigger and shoot point blank into TM’s chest in that position.

    A few other thoughts:

    1. TM doesn’t know if this person was an undercover cop or a psycho in the neighborhood. One cannot assume TM would walk up to a stranger and ask if he was following him, instead he would try to avoid them. TM is unarmed and has no idea if GZ has a weapon so wouldn’t hang around to find out.

    2. It would not make sense for TM to attack GZ from behind to provoke a fight especially since he had already tried to outrun and get away from him.

    3. From the description of GZ’s past record and like the wanna be cop and big man hero he sees himself as he would not pursue someone he deems to be an “effing coon” without having his gun ready to threaten if in a confrontation.

    • Exactly, this is scenario makes the most sense. Common Sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if GZ refuses to testify but if he does I really think a liar can not withstand the cross examination!

    • There is a timing issue with that scenario that is that the last phone call TM placed to his GF was about 30sec-90sec after he ran.
      For the rest, this is indeed sound.

      • When I again checked the above location of the gun shot and where TM was found laying on the ground it is quite a distance from the end of the first row of detached houses where I suggested he may have entered back into the main pathway and there the comfrontation took place. If the scene of the crime took place where the red block is marked in the diagram, it is quite a few yards north. It’s possible TM did turn into the entrance between the two rows of houses going south of the T and then hid near a back porch behind some bushes waiting for GZ to give up his pursuit. Why expose oneself in full open view the length of a football field to their home if one thought they were being stalked, by whoever.. At what point he and GZ met face to face is a mystery, though I doubt TM actually walked up to him. In the final call to TM’s girlfriend she claims it sounded like he had outrun GZ and stopped running. He said he was walking and then he may have hid before being surprised when they came face to face. He asked if GZ was or is following him, then the phone cut off. One of the witnesses said the final moments was only 19 feet away from her back window, which she claims was open at the time, and heard the screaming of a child for help before the deadly shot. Where her home was situated I am not sure. I am not convinced the voice was GZ’s because of the tone. It sounds like a young teens high pitched scream, and after all he had only just turned 17. My sons voice did not deepen significantly until he was beyond his teen years.

  73. I can’t say 100% that Z is racist. But I can say 100% he was profiling that night. I think a person can profile and not be racist because that’s human nature to form certain opinions just from preconceived notions of the world we live in. I find myself profiling that the cute little blonde girl behind the register is going to be ditzy just because she fits the “profile” or I might profile that the old customer coming in the door at work is going to be a pain in the rear just because they look old and annoying. But one thing I am sure of is Z is 100% guilty of causing the death of a young black teenage boy because he was profiling and just knew this kid was up to no good. What Z should have done is just let the cop show up and ask questions of Trayvon. But no, Z just knew this kid was going to go out the back entrance and slip through his fingers. I don’t buy the self defense story, if Trayvon did deck Z it was because of self defense on Trayvon, the victim’s part. It’s manslaughter at the very least and it could very well be labled as a hate crime because of the profiling. Z had never ever even talked to Trayvon, but just from the 911 tape he’s calling him an a@@hole and either a goon, coon or punk. I just can’t see the grand jury letting Z walk.

    • I agree Jon, 100%. I think there are degrees of racism [for lack of a better word]. Yes, people can be friends with some blacks but absolutely hate others based on how their personalities are. I don’t think GZ set out to kill TM that night but what he did so is convince himself that TM was up to something, high, staking out homes to rob, and when TM ran he just knew he was running to escape and GZ was not going to let that A**HOLE, COON/GOON/PUNK get away. I for one heard COON on that tape but many will dispute that because that word in and of itself reeks of racism. So I have to agree with you at the least it will be manslaughter, but I believe it should be 2nd degree murder and a hate crime. The problem with charging him with actual murder and a hate crime is going to be finding a jury that will not be HUNG! I can tell you this, had GZ got away with this and walked as simply as he may have originally thought, he would be a danger to our society and likely would do it again! This whole case needs to be the foundation for some serious law changing and creating. It is frightening to think that something like this can happen when all GZ had to do is have a decent conversation with that young man and not obsess the way he did, his state of mind that night is frightening to say the least!

  74. One scenario possibility that gets left out consistently, possible that GZ was brhind TM, reached out and grabbed Tm’s hoodie to keep TM from getting away.mheadphones fall and then scuffle ensues. Given location of GZ car, TM’s destination in the opposite direction it would seem that GZ would have to be behind TM.

    TM’s father said the distance between the murder site and his home was almost the length of a football field. TM would have had to haul a** to have made it home after noticing someone watching him. Black parents teach their sons not to run- because that makes them look even more suspicious.

  75. wow just saw an interesting take here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0eHOBOy7Tk&feature=related

    talking about John the witness. They listen to the call from zimmerman and at around the 6 minute mark of their podcast (or whatever it is) they are saying that in the background it sounds like GZ is knocking on someones door…tap tap tap tap….several times. They wonder if he knows someone that lives there…possibly john (remember john was outside and he actually spoke to him when he told him to stop and he’d call 911….i guess if he was on the porch and trayvon came out of hiding and walked passed not knowing Z was on the dark porch, that is how he might have appeared back behind trayvon as his girlfriend said. His voice really lowers and is a bit muffled the last two times he speaks and i wonder if he hasn’t spotted martin again and his attention is elsewhere, hangs up the phone and comes off the porch. Don’t know, but it would sure change things a bit if he actually was knocking on a friends door.

    • Nice!!! When I get in front of a PC again, I plan to edit the clip to around the 6 minute mark, post the vid in its shorter form to YouTube and add an update to the blog posting. Thank you!

    • Closer to the 7:30 mark.

      It DOES sound like a door knocker. Interesting there hasn’t been more discussion about it.

      Wonder if John was wearing a white t-shirt that night.

      • john said the guy was yelling at me for help, so zim knew he was there and john must have been out on the grass with them for him to tell zim “stop..i’m calling 911″ he said he went in and locked the door, went upstairs and BANG. His 911 call he said he heard a shot, they were out there fighting and then he must look out the window and says i think the guy is dead and then says something like oh shit, or something i cant remember just remember him being pretty cool on the phone one second then holy crap the guy is dead the next second. Maybe john came out after hearing Zim knocking, perhaps the altercation already started or maybe he was there before the fight began…but he came outside for some reason and then went back in to call police, no one else went out because of fear. It was right outside his house, GZ call ended just before the altercation, it sounds like he was knocking on someones door just before he hangs up, his voice lowers at the very end of the call. Maybe he saw martin again, left the porch to follow, martin sees him and asks why he’s following him…..john comes out at some point to answer the door, admits he spoke to zimmerman during the scuffle, maybe he witnessed more of it, he went inside, the kid dies. Of course this is alot of assuming and only a few facts but it’s just another scenario to consider.

      • oh yeah and good point about the white t-shirt i meant to say, he may have been part of the struggle that people saw. And i wonder if john spoke to zim at any point after the shooting.

      • That’s a good point about maybe this “John” was wearing a white t shirt and that is what the other witness saw. The white t shirt is still a mystery to me. Isn’t there a Johnathan that lives in the first or second townhouse (2nd I think?) right at where it happened?

      • I love the white t-shirt idea. Good point there!
        It would mean they were two after TM and his GF said there was only one man after him.
        It would be nice to know who else was neighborhood watch over there. If “John” was one of them then it would make sense GF went to him asking for help.

        • I wonder if there were any calls to the witness’ John’s number before/after Zimmerman’s 911 call? Probably not but I bet Zimmerman’s call history from before and after (as applicable) the shooting is interesting.

      • good point about the phone calls. someone posted a link with an interview from a witness saying that a resident was outside with a flashlight after the shot….this might have been “john” and they might have got their story straight before the police arrived…the police report didn’t mention another person being present at the scene so maybe he dissapeared before they got there. Wow, the mysterious white t-shirt, the knocking on the door, the resident with the flashlight….gets murkier every day.

      • Would there be a door knocker on the back door of the apartment? I would expect that those back doors have sliders on them, and a knocking would be a glass sound.

      • those houses seem to have sliding doors that look like they are metal screen/fly screen on the back, maybe he was knocking on the frame. Wood front doors but I couldn’t see from Johns interview if there was a knocker.

      • yeah i hope they do listen to his call thoroughly. I haven’t seen this discussed anywhere except here and i think it could be vital. I hope they check his phone calls and his contacts and go through the recording bit by bit.

    • This is simply huge and very interesting. Thanks a lot.
      The door knocking was one of the noises pointed out by “No Longer…” that I assumed to be keyboard typing from the dispatcher.

      • Wow, this sounds very strange, i type all day long and that is NOT typing! This would be huge if he actually pulled that gun and had it out. If he testifies and all this is addressed, i can’t see him getting away with lying.

  76. Has anyone thought about TM hiding and then waiting for GZ to pass before TM verbally questiones GZ. Therefore, coming up from behind GZ.

    • That contradicts what Trayvon’s girlfriend hears.
      “I lost him” then “He’s right behind me again.”
      After that, the confrontation begins.

  77. 1) GZ sounded high to me the very first time I listened to the 911 call (slurred speech, not articulating, possible paranoia).

    2) I hear tapping in his 911 call that sounds like either packing down a pack of cigarettes or packing down a gun clip from a 9mm…

    3) Re: 911 calls GZ made the prior 6 months. I listened to them, and read the 911 history reports in detail He sounds a bit paranoid, like someone I knew that was diagnosed schizo, IMO he needs a psych evaluation at the very very least, and his conceal permit revoked for the sake of public safety.

  78. why does everyone keep saying that when told not to follow Martin, Zimmerman says “ok”. He does not. Everywhere i look people keep bringing up that George said ok so he must have stopped following, even Zimms friend said it. Why am i the only person who hears the dispatcher say “ok”. He says “OK we don’t need you to do that………ok?” George does not agree not to follow at all.

      • oh sweet Jesus dude, that there is explosive!!! What she says about after the shooting a resident coming out with a flashlight and talking to zimmerman!!!! did he have a white t-shirt on i wonder. John is the only one who said zim was screaming for help, john was outside before the shot was fired….if we can believe the tap tap tap was zim knocking on johns door as discussed earlier, and this mysterious white t-shirt that was apparently on top in part of the struggle (perhaps john came out and was part of the struggle before going up to call 911)…then maybe he came out after the shot and he and zim sorted their story out….did the cops report a resident being outside with a flashlight when they showed up..wow, that just adds strength to the story that zim knew someone and was knocking on their door when he spotted martin again and came up behind him…i want someone to ask her if this resident was in a white t-shirt.

  79. I really have to get off my obsession with this case, It burns me up how people are even debating this issue. Now we can hear what sounds like GZ getting his 9mm ready on the 911 call! I have had it! I can’t wait for this to go to trial, this guys is a NUT CASE for SURE!

  80. This video I found on youtube pretty much says it like it is. Not all of what he states is 100% accurate but the underlying message is right on. Lengthy 12 minutes but worth the listen.

  81. hello again…look here http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
    there is someone saying they can hear a third voice and is questioning whether it is someone involved in the fight outside. This is a pro-zim site but someone thinks they hear something which makes it more iteresting considering we have just been talking about the possibility of john being part of the scuffle…i can’t hear it, but someone with better technology might be able to, it might be significant.

    • I read on another site, someone suggesting a police officer was also there and there was a pop that sounded like a taser being used.

  82. in particular read what mattsate says about it sounding like there was another voice outside…..like i said, i don’t hear it but it is interesting that a pro-zim is bringing attention to this

  83. You already made up your mind about what happened. You aren’t trying to get to the bottom of this, you’re trying to pin Zimmerman. How about you leave the police work to the police, and form an opinion after the evidence comes out?

  84. I would not assume Zimmerman is getting out of the truck. He could have already been out of the truck at some point before he called and did not shut the door tight or maybe he was not in the truck at the start of the call. When the wind noise stops there is a click-the sound you expect when someone is putting a truck in park.There needs to be a recreation of different scenarios at the location where these events occurred.

  85. I think zimmerman approached Martin 4 times in total.

    1 -Before the call Zimmerman gets out of truck quickly, taking keys with him to get a better look ,then gets back in truck and calls police.

    2- You hear the keys going in ignition then the door shuts then Zimmerman follows Trayvon

    Zimmerman is told not to follow,but you continue to hear the wind sound coming through window because he drives toward back gate. He does not want martin to get away out back gate.

    3- Zimmerman stops near Brandy Greens house and does not stay on phone with police because he wants to get out of truck and approach Martin

    Martin switches direction to avoid Zimmerman.Zimmerman gets back in truck and drives toward the club house.

    4-Zimmerman gets out of truck and approaches Martin for the fourth time.

  86. The police are investigating this case to the utmost scrutiny and to date they still have not found legal grounds to arrest Zimmerman. They would LOVE to have enough to arrest him so they could get all of this controversy out of their way but they haven’t because of the LAW…..

    As much as all of you want to pretend like you know what happened, nobody here does…

    The way everyone wants to hang Zimmerman without knowing the facts is purely political….

    So sad…THIS CASE is why racism in America towards blacks is worse then racism against any other minority…

    If you live your life looking for racists, I guarantee you will find em…Just as if you lay in your backyard all night staring at the stars looking for UFO’s, you will see on by the end of the night….Its called a snipe hunt… or a racial snipe hunt..

    Its a huge disservice to race relations in America….

    • just because racism is used at times when it is unjustified does not mean it doesn’t exist. Racial profiling is a bit different to racism and i think we are ALL guilty of profiling someone at some time. The way the police handled the case was not not good enough and it is fair for the parents to ask WHY their child did not seem to matter. Whether it turns out race or zims connections or both were factors is to be determined. But racism is alive and well in this case, if only for the way non-black people have reacted when the family of a dead child ask the question, was this racial profiling, was it swept under the rug because of race….all fair questions if you have lived as a black person and dealt with racism all your life and it is pretty sad that so many non-blacks are so quick to complain about the “race card” being played. A huge disservice to race relations would be the denial that there is in fact still race issues, there are still racists. I am white, i don’t consider myself racist but how the hell do i know what true racism is or what it feels like. I have never walked in those shoes and am very thankful that i have not. So i guess i can easily say “stop using the race card” or “it’s got nothing to do with race”, but history says black people have been treated like shit, and no-one can deny it, and it hasn’t just gone away, and the vilification of the VICTIM in this case is proof of that cause while we are saying “it’s not about race, stop complaining about race” we are at the same time trying to prove that this kid was indeed a thug. Why? Why go to that much trouble to prove it’s got nothing to do with race, cause the intensity of that denial and the hatred with which people have attacked the victim, his family and witnesses proves how racist we in fact are.

      • Jo, kudos to you for speaking up and believing in doing what is right! I applaud you and appreciate everything you said!

  87. Does anyone find it bizarre that Zimmerman’s brother, father, nor two lawyers have not seen him in person? Also why has the wife not come forward? I have been away from the news for the last week so maybe I missed this? His “friends ” that have come forward sound nothing more than acquaintances who didn;t really know him. Anyway I’m guessing, he is trying to lose weight, so it doesn’t look like he could have overpowered Trayvon. His is in hiding I know but how could your family not have seen you since this whole case started. I wonder if he has been disowned bc he really is a loose canon and his father and brother are coming forward to protect themselves and George from people who are seeking to possibly hurt them as vengeance. Why wouldn’t George just turn himself in to protect his own family, himself and his wife.

    • I laughed when I read about Zimmerman trying to lose weight right now. I can picture him in a Zumba class right now with a wig on to conceal his identity lol. Seriously though, I think he is probably staying in his father’s basement. His family is saying that they haven’t seen him because they don’t want anyone following them to try to cause harm to Zimmerman. I don’t think he will serve anytime for this. Sanford botched the initial investigation and many witnesses have conflicting stories. It will be hard to prove with absolute certainty that he didn’t act in self defense unless the prosecution is sitting on a smoking gun.

  88. Its hard to take this post seriously when one of the first items is a snarky comment about the Sanford PD not arresting Zimmerman.

    They took him to the station and questioned him for 5 hours. It was the DA that refused to charge.

      • Questioning is not the same thing as arresting. An arrest implies bringing charges. I think the major issue with the whole case is that the police attempted to sweep this under the rug.

        Yet by law, it is up to a JURY to decide whether the affirmative defense of “Stand Your Ground” will, or will not, apply to Zimmerman’s actions. A human being was killed, and the killer confessed pulling the trigger. From there it’s up to a trial before a jury to decide if the killing was justified or not, negligent or not, and so forth.

    • If true I think that would make my Zimmerman approaches Martin 4 times unlikely . Zimmerman would have less than a minute to drive back toward clubhouse and go between buildings . I get the impression Zimmerman drove more than the length of a single building following trayvon while on the phone.I am biased because if it was me I would make a point of giving the general area I was in unless i strayed more than a minute or two away from the truck ,so i think he initially followed in truck. Also Zimmermann did mention Trayvons going toward the back gate. Even small details like this could change my opinion. I would like to see different scenarios reenacted at the scene of the crime.

    • Indeed, I have no idea why many media source place the call at 7:11pm while the log of the police call clearly states that the connection was made at 19:09:34. The issue here is that GZ didn’t call 911. Instead, he called Sanford PD. So, the person talking with GZ is a Police Officer and not a dispatcher. From the records, the call connection is at 7:09, the first wire is indeed at 7:11 and the last wire is at 7:13. That last wire is about the decision to get the officer to call GZ at arrival. This was the last thing GZ asked for before ending the call. We know the tape is 4min long. So, to me the 7:09 as the start of the call is pretty solid.
      I guess journalists that use that 7:11 as a starting point have failed.
      Those journalist often state that there is a 1min gap between the end of the call and the scuffle. Actually there are 3min.

  89. I was discussing this with a friend earlier and it made me recall that I read somewhere that GZ was straddling TM. I found the article here:

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

    where the 2 roommates claim that they saw GZ on top with his legs on both sides and hand on TM’s back. If GZ was on the bottom, he would have to roll from under TM and then get on top of him (assuming the women are not lying). Is it possible for ballistics to determine if the weapon was fired up or was it fired down at the target?

    • The autopsy will determine the angle at which the bullet entered Martin’s chest. It will also give clues about how close the gun was when the shot was fired.

      In the struggling scenario, the shot would have been at point blank range, possibly even jammed against the body when fired. There will be gun powder stippling and even charring at the entry. The problem with this is that there is also high velocity splatter and blowback, and we don’t see blood on Zimmerman’s clothes in the police video.

      I will be VERY interested to see the autopsy report.

  90. I think your yellow line in the first map should be trayvons path. I don’t understand why people would think Trayvon would take a less direct route. Trayvon cuts over to between the buildings and Zimmerman drives past two buildings follows the road to the left and stops at the cutoff between the ends of two buildings. Why not make a map with that scenario?

    • Yeah, that could have been Trayvon Martin’s path based on the quickest (maybe?) route home and the fact that Zimmerman said he was running towards the back entrance. However, Zimmerman running by the T in the sidewalk to clear the area doesn’t make sense given this path.

  91. here is how I think it could have went down. If I get a chace I will take better pics. It was a pain in my butt trying to get a good pic with a shitty camera. But anyway I do not mention george could have followed Trayvon b4 he even placed the call.

  92. “No Longer…” I have made a map locating 5 of the 7 witnesses on the crime scene. That map briefly describes what they said during their 911 call. Could you shoot me an email so I can email you back with the image. We could start a discussion around what witnesses have seen and how to fit GZ’s or DeeDee’s (TM’s GF) accounts of events.

  93. Several problems. You don’t hear the car door open until AFTER you hear George say “he’s running” at 2:08. And he immediately says he’s running towards the south entrance. To me that places the truck closer to the cut-through on twin trees and that Trayvon ran south on Twin Trees.

    Then at 2:38 you hear George say “he ran” and the huffing and puffing ends on the phone. To me this indicates that Trayvon took the gap between the first and second buildings and he was giving up on the chase.

    Here is where things get interesting. George stays on the phone another full 1:30 with the police, talking calmly (obviously not running). If Trayvon was running home, he should have been home and safe before George ever got off the phone.

    What I think happened is that after Trayvon got between the buildings, he only ran a short distance further and stopped, thinking he had gotten away. George, having initially given chase, continued to walk at a liesurely pace while on the phone with the police to the gap between the buildings thinking Trayvon was long gone.

    After reaching the gap, having finished his call with the police at that time, he didn’t see anything and turned back north between the buildings. Trayvon, having stopped nearby, sees George behind him again (which is what he told his girlfriend) then decides to walk over and ask George why he is following him. This would explain George saying Trayvon came up to him behind as well as explaining how both of them ended up north of the first gap between the buildings instead of well south of them.

    • I think he was at the top of the T and had no reason to go south and the timing I lay out makes sense.

      Regardless, there’s a 3 minute gap after Zimmerman hangs up. From wherever that call ended, he should have been back to his truck and definitely not south of the T if he was returning to his truck when supposedly attacked from behind.

  94. First, thanks for doing this No Longer Mass Emailings. It clears up a lot of initial questions we all had. And of course, it has created a lot of new ones.

    I would suggest it’s time for a new map with the actual times on it. (Yeh, I’m pretty generous with your time.) Now that we know GZ’s call started at 7:11:12 pm, we can compare actual times with the assumptions.

    One other possibility about TM’s path comes when GZ tells the dispatcher that TM is heading for the back gate. Would he assume that if TM was running to the cut through path? Wouldn’t it be plausible if TM headed South on Twin Trees for a bit?

    The girlfriend’s affidavit (reportedly) quotes TM as saying “he’s right behind me again.” If TM took the cut through and headed South at the T, he didn’t get very far.

    If TM ran south on Twin Trees and cut between some buildings then went North, I think the timing works better. It does leave TM out in the open for easy spotting by GZ, though.

    Anyway, thanks!

    • You’re welcome – I appreciate the feedback!

      My map is by seconds of the call rather than time of the day. Not in a snarky tone at all but does it still need to be updated in your opinion?

      Trayvon could have went south on Twin Trees and then entered the middle corridor/sidewalk area from the west but he would have been south of the shooting at this point. For Zimmerman’s story to add up – that is, I was attacked from behind while returning back to my truck as instructed, Trayvon had to be at the shooting site or north of it.

      • The big problem is that Trayvon had a 2 minute start running south, and then the confrontation happened a minute or two after that. Trayvon should have been home and his brother starting his skittle high long before the confrontation took place.

        The only explanation that makes sense is that Trayvon stopped (which is what the girlfriend indicates when she talks about him thinking he lost him). And more importantly, he walked back north, likely when Zimmerman came between the gap between the buildings and started back north towards the cut-through (and his car which was parked by the cut-through).

        • If Zimmerman was cruising in between gaps in the buildings – note: this isn’t what my map suggests – why didn’t he head out to Twin Trees for his truck rather than north on the path?

          Also, you’re saying Trayvon was near the shooting site and north of Zimmerman when he started a verbal confrontation? Trayvon shouldn’t have been near of the shooting site if Zimmerman’s route is what I suggest…

          …and he was simply heading back to his truck when attacked from behind.

        • Trayvon didn’t have a problem. He was heading home – no matter which way he was taking – and a guy was stalking him even after being told to stop by a 911 operator. There are suggestions on this posting that Zimmerman called the police department’s direct number so that would presumably mean he didn’t follow an officer’s orders.

      • if George Zimmerman was sneaking around between houses he’s lucky some crazy neighbourhood watch guy didn’t shoot him for looking suspicious…joking

      • Am I missing something concerning the time of GZ’s call? Is there any information showing he called at 7:11 rather than 7:09?

      • There’s no telling why Trayvon didn’t run all the way home. He could have took a different route to avoid letting the creepy guy following him to see where he lived. It’s totally reasonable since it would have just been him and his little brother at home. If someone was following me and they started to get out and run after me on foot, I would probably freak out especially when it’s obvious that the person is not a cop and I know I didn’t do anything wrong. How many times have we read about people coming up missing after taking a short trip to the store? There are some wackos out here and there was nothing about Zimmerman that should have made TM feel safe.

  95. i’m just really thinking that George and John know each other. I hope Corey looks into it. Why was john outside during the scuffle, did zim knock on his door, who was wearing the white t-shirt, who was the resident outside talking to zim with the flashlight before the cops got there, did he leave before the cops got there because it wasn’t mentioned in the report that another resident was there. And i think during a scuffle both men might have been rolling around (or all 3 men if the mysterious white t guy was a 3rd person) swapping who was on top.

    I can’t get it out of my head that one of the residents was a mate of george now…it’s doing my head in.

    Once again good job to NLME for letting us vent and discuss here.

  96. I’ll give a complete overview as short as possible.

    Trayvon was spotted by the clubhouse which is by the entrance so he couldn’t have been followed there. His girfriend says he sought shelter from the rain which explains him loitering around the buildings there.

    George lives in the bottom left corner of the development and was leaving so he came up twin trees and stopped his car by the cut-through when he spotted Martin by the clubhouse.

    Trayvon saw George looking at him, got nervous and decided to walk home. This actually brings Trayvon towards George which explains George describing Trayvon coming towards him to check him out. Note, Trayvon’s girlfriend complains of George “watching” Trayvon, not following him.

    When Trayvon reached George, he finally freaks and runs south on Twin Trees. The girl friend confirms that Trayvon ran and George told the police on the call at 2:08 “he’s running” and immediately confirms that he’s heading south.

    George gets out of the car for the first time within seconds of seeing Trayvon running south and you hear him huffing and puffing as he runs with the cell phone on his ear. The operator picks up on the heavy breathing, asks if he is following Trayvon and then says it’s not necessary. George says ok and his breathing returns to normal a few seconds later.

    George’s breathing returns to completely normal as he says “he ran”. I believe that Trayvon had cut between the gap between the buildings, out of George’s sight at this point, which is why George sounded defeated.

    George then spends another full minute and thirty seconds on the phone talking calmly and describing his trucks position at the cut-through up north. I believe that george wanders, on foot, towards the gap between the buildings as he talks to the police, thinking trayvon is long gone.

    Trayvon himself must have stopped shortly after getting between the buildings because even at a walking pace, he should have been home before George got off the phone with the police.

    George walks through the gap after hanging up with the police, sees nothing and heads back north between the buildings.

    Trayvon, nearby, sees George behind him again, walks towards george and asks him why he is following him. This explains the two of them being north of the gap and explains why both of thought that each of them was behind the other (Trayvon at first talking to his girlfriend about George being behind him and George, having turned back north, saying that Trayvon came up behind him, to ask him why he is following him).

    That scenerio works with all the available information from the phone call, girlfriends call, position of his truck, where trayvon lived, etc.

    I still have no idea why one of them made it physical with the other, but it does explain how they got to where they were.

    • Good read. I like your description until the “Zimmerman heads south on the sidwalk trail” part. Though the operator told him to stop following the teen, I guess he can head east a bit until he clears the area but heading south means he’s still stalking the kid.

      Lastly, if Trayvon was heading south and Zimmerman was heading north to his vehicle like your scenario implies, George couldn’t have been attacked from behind while returning to his truck.

  97. A map of what I think happened. Trayvon’s U-turn could have been straight south between the buildings instead of over by the gap leading to retreat view circle. But either way, I think Trayvon went through the gap on Twin trees and stopped. George, eventually went that way too, after hanging up with the police and then started back north towards his truck.

    [img]http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w475/no_longer_me/CrimeScene.jpg[/img]

    • Whoa. This possibility was mentioned a few weeks back by a commenter (update: MissTee) – probably around the same time this Examiner posting came out – but, I hadn’t seen a link or heard anything else about it since. It sounds like there could be another call. We’ll see.

      It seems like Angela Corey could purposely be withholding stuff from the media so that Zimmerman and his family keep telling a side of the story that doesn’t add up. Meaning, the prosecutors are purposely trying him in the court of public opinion as much as possible before going to a real trial.

  98. I don’t get that there is heavy breathing at all from listeng to George’s call. I think everybody has been biased including myself when It was already assumed George was getting out of the car and it was the sound of a door opening and closing and that influenced what people,including myself thougt they heard.We don’t know what george was doing before the call.

      • I hear the chimes. it is possible that you could not hear chimes when a door is not shut tight. I have had vehicles like that. Someone would need to check out the truck. They also should have checked for blood and if a window was cracked open. I don’t now anything about this specific truck.There is a clicking noise after the wind stop which could be the truck being put in park or the keys turned.. Nothing should be taken for granted. What ever the case it seems George was still moving after he agreed to stop. There is still a wind sound after that so he is still running if on foot or kept going until he got between the buildings I think. Even if George’s version is true where trayvon comes back to the truck that shows George approached Trayvon more than once.

  99. Here’s my guess from the different scenarios provided. At the very least I believe there should be probable cause for an arrest an charges on some sort so this event can go through the court system. Personally, I’m not a fan of the law that allows what’s happened so far.

    GZ was driving west on Retreat View Clr after driving north along the east side of the complex and saw TM walking east coming back from the 7-11. He turned left on Twin Tree and pulled over to watch TM’s next move. When TM reached the clubhouse GZ was looking out his window and back when he called 911. At this point TM was a little suspicous of this guy that had just taken a slow left and pulled over. He continued walking East on Twin Tree passing GZ’s vehicle, at about 1:28 on the call. Once TM passed him GZ slowly followed in his truck towards the south turn, alerting TM to being followed. TM began to run and GZ, now parked somewhere near the south turn and got out of his vehicle to try to follow TM. Meanwhile TM ran across the north tee to the path and turned south on Retreat View Clr. This turn was seen by GZ. Thinking GZ may follow him that way he turned in between the buildings and waited to see if GZ was following him. After a time, he decided he’d lost the follower so he walked out to the pathway to go home but it was where GZ was now walking south after going to Retreat View Clr, losing sight of TM and figuring he must have turned West between the buildings.

    GZ was no longer near the mailboxes and so decided not to meet the police there. He wasn’t sure what his next move would be and asked the dispatcher to have the officer call him when he arrived in the complex. Perhaps his southerly walk down the path was a way back to his truck but it’s likely he and TM met face to face rather than TM attacking him from behind.

  100. According to a TampaBay article, TM was used to the Gated Community he died in (http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece).
    Here is the interesting paragraph:
    “Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad’s girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him. But to George Zimmerman, he was a stranger.”

    Here is another interesting section of the same article:
    “Just then, three teenage males walked through the unlocked side gate, down the walkway toward Ransburg. T.J. Jones and his twin brother, T.Y., 14, and their cousin James Young, 13, have lived in the complex for two years. Their moms moved here from apartments to give the boys more room and a safe place to play.

    The boys, who are black, used to play football with Trayvon Martin “right there on that grass where he died,” said T.Y.”

    My point is that TM wasn’t lost there. He perfectly knew the place, and he perfectly knew how to navigate between buildings. He also had friends right there.

    This makes me wonder if the door knocking/tapping we can hear at the end of GZ’s 4min call to police isn’t actually TM trying to get to a friend’s. The noise would have drove GZ to him.

    One thing is certain is that GZ suddenly changes his mind, interrupts the Police Officer he is on the phone with and asks for the dispatched Officer to call him rather than meeting at the mailboxes. To me it means that at this point GZ noticed something that made him change his mind.

  101. I believe TM confronted GZ. TM had 3 to 5 minutes to run the short distance home, and he didn’t.

    Now, maybe he didn’t consider home to be safe because his father was out to dinner. Or maybe he was just in a panic and thought it was better to hide than run in the open. But I can’t get over the fact that GZ was on the phone a full 2 minutes after he said “he’s running” and the confrontation didn’t take place until a short time after that.

    GZ wandering into the area between the buildings did so with the expectation that TM was long gone. And by both GZ’s testimony and TM’s girlfriends statements, TM spoke to GZ first.

    • Again, you can’t blame whatever route decisions a teen makes with a weird guy was stalking him and only a younger relative back at home. Where would I have gone? Straight home. Why didn’t he? It doesn’t matter.

      • The thing is, if TM walked back north into GZ, there was no stalking.

        From what I can tell, GZ was parked monitoring TM when he called the police, not following him in his car. Then TM took off running before GZ got out of his truck. GZ did follow TM for 20 seconds or so at that point, but then gave up and just walked around while talking to the police.

        While it’s a horrible tragedy that TM died, I really don’t think you can say that GZ was in any way looking for a physical confrontation with him. The way I see it, TM and GZ accidentally bumped into each other (not literally) in the dark, GZ thinking TM was long gone and TM for whatever reason hanging out between the buildings rather than going home, and one of their fight-or-flight instincts chose fight.

    • hmm i don’t know, if he was expecting trayvon to be long gone then why was he wandering between the buildings..he didn’t leap from his truck to take a nice evening walk, he was looking for Martin. TM might have spoken first but i doubt he aproached GZ, he spoke because that fruit loop was on his ass again. And it is BS that he didn’t know what road he was on considering it is the road you drive on when you enter the gate…go through the gate and drive forward, simply continue on the road you enter on and you will see my truck…how hard is that.

    • This conflicts with TM’s girlfriend testimony.
      “I lost him” indicates (to me) that TM was trying to lose GZ.
      “He’s right behind me again” indicates GZ was following TM.
      TM may well have turned at this point to confront GZ.
      GZ’s comment “What are you doing around here?” is (again IMHO) inflammatory. A simple “I’m neighborhood watch” might have changed everything.

      • GZ only started following after TM took off running. And he stopped 20 seconds later after the police told him that he didn’t need to follow TM.

        TM, seeing GZ initially take off after him when he started running, did lose him by running through the gap between the buildings (not the cut through, but the first gap between the north/south buildings). Then GZ stayed on the phone with the police for another minute and a half, talking calmly.

        TM should have been long gone by the time GZ wandered through that gap, only he wasn’t.

        • Trayvon Martin should have been long gone by then or George Zimmerman?

          Zimmerman should have been back in his truck waiting on police 20 seconds after the operator told him to stop following Trayvon.

    • Also, take into consideration that it was raining outside (I don’t know how hard). There are plenty of times when I leave the grocery store to see 5-10 people lined up (by the entrance) waiting for the rain to stop when it is only a 20 second jog to their car. Of course he could have ran straight home but at this point, it’s speculation as to why he didn’t. Maybe he didn’t want GZ to see what house he went in or maybe he hid to attack GZ (which I don’t believe). I’m hoping the cameras caught a glimpse of this so we can see what really happened.

  102. Lets say Zimmerman was following in truck and they did check the truck. They find that the window is cracked open a little.George could have claimed the window was all the way up when he followed Trayvon. I am not convinced myself this is the case yet as there are too many unknowns. We have Georges word for a lot of what happened and his story his fishy. Now if george was folllowing in the truck trying to keep trayvon form getting away he wants a story to explain the partially open window and could have come up with the trayvon approached him while he was in the truck story as seen below.

    Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.

    He could have claimed he did not leave the window all the way .

    • GZ could not have followed TM with his truck. TM was first reported to be at the clubhouse while GZ reports his truck being at the cut-through between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle.

      The clubhouse is right next to the entrance. There was no room in which to do any following. More importantly, GZ was ahead of TM, between him and his house. You can’t follow someone from ahead of them.

      • I never said he was following the whole time. yes he could have followed in truck but it is not likely he did it very far b4 trayvon went between the building. That seemed like a pointless comment

      • I am playing nice. That comment was uncalled . I am not the one saying it had to happen this way or that way,yet i am the one that keeps pointing why another version may be correct and the other person never explains themselves. It is like explaining why 2 plus 2 equals four when i would rather move on to other things. This whole thing is playing out the way I expected it too but I wasted so much time just explaining the basics I never got that far into discussing that. If people are going to keep saying it had to happen this way or that way and not even bother to give a good explanation why or pay any attention to what I have to say than there is no sense of me even being here. Not once has anyone even bothered to admit I am right about anything like the door could have been open without the chime going off. If you are going to be so biased as to say it happenned this way than you should defend your position. It is the person that is being dismissive that is not being nice and not me… It is acting like the very people I have been trying to avoid

    • Interesting stuff. I am so hurt by this child’s death, I can’t stop thinking about it. Where is the story that has Trayvon knocking on Zimmermans truck window? This is New to me.

      • You would understand the point about the wind if you were considering something besides the zimmerman left the truck while on the phone theory . I checked before I drove away today because people are trying to convince me what I had to be hearing. With the truck door open there was no chime until I pushed the door out. There is no evidence Zimmerman left the truck

    • i wouldn’t put too much stock into this. I don’t think Martin approached zimmerman while he was in his truck or we would have heard the exchange on the Zimmerman phone call. Maybe the cop that told Tracy Martin got his facts confused, or maybe tracy martin heard it wrong, who knows. But zimmerman didn’t mention that he had spoken to trayvon on his police call and he didn’t speak to trayvon during the call so someone has misinterpreted something there i think, unless GZ did tell the police that but surely he would know that his recorded call would prove otherwise.

      • Zimmermans call to the police did not last the whole time.If in fact someone told that story I doubt they would claim it was during the phone call. I imagine they would be trying to get george to explain where he was the whole time so maybe that was one of his or his fathers stories.My suspicion would be George’s father was telling both the lawyers and George what to say and that is why we see George staying out of the whole thing and the problem with the lawyers.Maybe George wants to come forward with the real story but the father is trying to protect him and pulling the strings.

  103. I have to agree with some other comments that trayvon could have been looking for shelter from the rain at the cluvhouse. That tells me Zimmerman would have already had time to get out of truck b4 he made the call. I think the tapping on someones door theory sounds plausible also. personally I
    think he approached Trayvon at least a few times so george cooks up the Trayvon approaches him in the truck story which would also help his story of why the window was cracked open if that was the case

    • Could it be that GZ said TM was approaching his truck (from behind)because Trayvon crossed the road from the Clubhouse and was headed east on Twin Trees toward the back entrance between the row of houses where the altercation takes place? TM passes GZ and after that point tells his girlfriend he thinks this guy is following him. He then begins running. GZ tells dispatch TM is running and leaves his truck to pursue him.

  104. I know what Zimmermans says, but I think Trayvon runs all of the way to the south gate and hides. (Or what you are calling Zimmermans path.) Here is where Martins chats it up with his girlfriend for a few moments. Zimmerman doesn’t see him, but heads down the Twin Peak path. Martin looks out and doesn’t see the creep anymore and heads to the Twin Peak Path still chatting with girlfriend and in no hurry. ANd since he is in a gated community footsteps from home, why should he run? He doesn’t have a mental problem, Zimmerman does. If they see each other as Martin turns the corner this explains the concept of “he cornered him” as the girlfriend states. I don’t think she means from behind, I think it is from the front.

    • I doubt Trayvon would make it all the way to the south gate. If he made it that far he probably could make it to Brandy Green’s house

    • I don’t think he made it to the south gates either. After playing through all of the scenario’s what makes the most sense to me is TM went to Retreat View Cir turned south and then stepped into the gap between the first 2 houses. He feels he lost GZ and is out of the rain. Unfortunately he continues his conversation with his girlfriend and GZ hears him. GZ heads south in between the houses and finds TM. TM feeling like he is home (technically he is) and not knowing what else to do confronts GZ. GZ “knowing” he has a guilty perp on his hands tries to “citizen arrest” TM. TM feeling violated fights back and they begin wrestling. TM lands a solid blow with his elbow breaks GZ’s nose and starts to break contact still calling for help. GZ panics pulls his gun and shoots TM. TM falls forward fatally wounded. Yes there is a lot of speculation but it fits.

    • You were the first. I’ve had a hectic week or two at work and tried to stream the presser while on the road to no avail.

      So, nobody knows where Zimmerman is?

      He’ll need to be arrested within days – as discussed Angela Corey said she didn’t need the 4/10 grand jury – so somebody better figure out Zimmerman’s location soon.

  105. interesting that martin is ignoring advice from his legal council now…while i don’t like that he is now in fear for his life (i want justice not revenge or more violence), it really does appear that he is an arrogant so and so. He thought he had the right to prowl the neighbourhood and harass people for walking home, he now has a web site soliciting money to help him pay defence fees and living costs (how are trayvon’s family surviving, have they been able to return to work) and his site reeks of arrogance. From the quotes such as “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing. – Edmund Burke.” (which is damn inapropriate, who the f*ck does he think he is, he didn’t stop any evil), to his claim of “life changing events” which forced him to leave his family and life etc when there is a kid dead and a family grieving because of his actions. He gives the impression he has a sense of entitlement and superiority with not a smidge of remorse except for what he has lost. Seems like George Zimmerman answers to no one, not even his lawyers these days. People like the black panthers need to shut up, they are not helping anyone, especially not these parents who are behaving in a classy and dignified manner. No one wants Zimmerman to be harmed, just brought to trial. But Zimmerman needs show a bit of humility, his web site and request for money from his “supporters” and his attitude make it really easy to imagine his mind set on that night, no one was going to get the best of him.

  106. Trayvon was on the phone talking to his GF this whole time. Surely if he was “hiding” from Zimmerman and he saw Zimmerman, he would have shut up. Voices carry outside, even when it’s raining.

    Maybe he was just waiting until he finished the conversation with the GF, we are tallking about a teenager on the phone with a girl, how many of us took the phone outside when we could?

    Point is, if he was laying in wait for Zimmeman, there would be no way he would do it while on the phone talking to his gf- he would give his advantage away.

    He may have been hiding from the rain, or not wanting to go back in until the phone call was up, or even hiding because he was afraid, but he was NOT hiding in wait while talking on the phone.

  107. Not sure if someone posted this scenario or not. What if TM went north? He goes around the corner and just waits for GZ to finish. He thinks he is gone and starts heading back south comes in the cut doesn’t see GZ thinks the coast is clear and starts heading home. GZ has been loitering around the area spots TM and starts closing on him. Still to me doesn’t matter GZ needs to have a judge/jury buy his self defense claim not have the prosecuter rubber stamp it and sweep it under the rug. Sorry I believe in the second amendment and own guns myself but anytime another person is killed a jury of their peers needs to decide the case.

    A side note. If it was a favor by the prosecutor for the family to let him go it doesn’t matter what race was involved. They thought that it would go away because they a thinly veiled self-defense claim. If any other person had commited the act regardless of race they would have been charged. To me that is the outrage of this case and what has me looking for more information. These types actions were/are common place in some areas of the country and is part of the reason that minority in many areas felt they were getting shafted. Today when you try to cut these types of deals the internet blows you up.

    Thanks for the blog/postings this is the most logical place I have found.

    • I agree. There is “castle doctrine”, which on the whole make sense, but this doesn’t. I think people cannot bare to think that there is no accountability for tracking someone down and killing them. This would give fuels to creeps, crazy ex’s, psychos and anyone else wanting to kill for the joy of it. Especially if how the altercation began is inconsequential.

  108. Half a million dolars and GZ could live like a king in some of the 47 countries that do not extradite to the US. $18,000 per year in the Phillipines, Cuba, Vanuatu, or the Maldives would leave GZ living a higher standard of living than what he had in Florida, complete with house servants. GZ’s legal advisors quit today because they don’t want it on their head that this guy left. The attorneys admitted today that they never saw him in person, that GZ lost a lot of weight and was “far from  Florida.” bet he gre his hairf out too! Of course the attorneys have to say they did not think GZ was a flight risk or the attorneys would be liable for obstructing justice. The attorneys, must have some suspicion about their client in order to have chosen to endure the media
    Firestorm and professional ridicule which will certainly follow after today’s press conference. The questions posed here may never be answered! What a tragedy for the Martin family.

  109. What bothers me is what was happening to Trayvon to make him call for help for almost a minute? What was Zimmerman doing?

    I have also read that perhaps there was another person involved bc it was heard on a call that Z knocked on someone’s door (John the witness). DId that person in a white tshirt go out to help Z? Also another blogger says he thought he heard a gazer pop go off before the gunshot.

  110. this guy talks about the knocking on doors and mentions how zims voice lowers at the end as though he noticed trayvon. Some new photos of the area including the front of the townhouses (although i think GZ would have been knocking on the back doors since that is where he says TM ran)

  111. This guy points out some things people should pay attention to. Some are saying he did not follow in truck but you hear what sounds like the truck being put into gear. Of course he could have been turning around so the truck was facing south. He may be wrong on some points. A door chimes normally when opening it ,but is not necessarily going off if the door is open. People do not normally close there door if it is open only an inch or two by bringing the door directly toward them. They swing the door out and than bring it back which would cause the chimes to go off. Georges voice is not that breathy while talking. there is no evidence george got out of the truck. george said go to the left. he could have meant he went toward the back gate which is to the left. he said he was at a cut off. The cut off if he went all the way south and than to the left is between 2 buildings. One of those being the building Brandy Green lives at.

    • GZ is probably in his truck at the beginning of the call then went out to chase TM.
      The reasons are:
      1) It was raining. You can hear windshield wipers when there is no talking (particularly between 1’00” & 1’40”).
      2) At 2’07” GZ says “shit! He’s running”, then you can hear a car door opened (2’09”), chimes (2’10”), door shut (2’14”).
      3) From 2’19” to 2’41” you get wind interference in the mic.
      4) The police Officer caught the chasing and asked GZ not to do that (2’24”).
      5) There is no noise of door being opened/shut no chime to the end of the tape.
      6) GZ is afraid of being heard when giving his address (3’40”), so he’s probably be outside.

      There is no indication that GZ moved his truck during his call to police. Indeed, GZ gives the same indication at 1’40” when TM seems to be passing by him, and 1min after TM went off running (3’10”). He also still agreed to meet at the mailboxes 15sec before ending the call.

  112. You never hear a truck engine. We are hearing door dings, breathing, etc but we aren’t going to hear an engine revving up?

    At the point of GZ’s phone call to the police, he has absolutely no reason to be lying about anyones positions are actions since he wants the police to come there and find TM.

    In GZ’s call to the police he places TM at the clubhouse. TM’s girlfriend confirms that he was seeking shelter from the rain when he first entered the complex, backing up the story.

    In GZ’s call to the police he places his own truck at the cut-through that is past the clubhouse and to the left. He also describes his position as having no real address. This describes the cut-through between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle at the point where Twin Trees turns from going east-west to north-south perfectly. If his truck was parked there, to his right are the back yards of the east-west building north of him. To his left is the side of the north-south building that is south of him. This position would also be backed by GZ’s claim that he was leaving the complex to run an errand as he would be driving past that position on his way out the main entrance. The logical assumption is that as he was going north on TWin Trees he spotted someone at the clubhouse as he turned the corner to go west, and he stopped his car to observe.

    In GZ’s call to the police he reports that TM starts coming towards him, possibly coming to check him out. This only makes sense if GZ is between TM and the townhome he is staying at. TM’s girlfriend only describes TM as being watched at this point, not followed, so that fits with that description. In addition, she mentioned Trayvon putting up his Hoodie in kind of a defensive gesture. That only makes sense if he is walking towards someone who will look at his face. This further confirms GZ being ahead of TM, not behind him. The only logical conclusion is that GZ is between the clubhouse and TM’s townhome which fits perfectly with the truck being parked by the cut-through.

    GZ gets more and more nervous with the police as TM is approaching him. TM’s girlfriend also describes TM as walking faster, which fits with making GZ nervous. In addition, GZ is able to describe something being on TM’s shirt and that he is definately a black teen. That all indicates that TM and GZ were now close to each other, which fits with TM walking towards GZ.

    Then TM took off running. At 2:08 in the call, GZ describes TM as running and immediately describes the direction as being south towards the back entrance. This is backed up by TM’s girlfriend saying that he eventually did run.

    It is at this point that you hear the chimes of the door, indicating GZ left his truck. This is further backed by hearing heavy breathing and GZ starting to limit himself to quick, short answers. The operator obviously picked up on GZ running as well as the operator asked him if he is following TM. This is backed up by TM’s girlfriend claiming that GZ followed TM as TM ran to get away.

    After the operator tells GZ that he doesn’t need to follow TM, you hear GZ say ok. And after he responsds to the operator asking his name GZ says “George. He ran.” The words “he ran” coincide with the heavy breathing stopping and to me sounds like he is giving up the chase as TM is no longer in his view. Giving the short sprint and TM leaving his view, to me that indicates that TM ran between the gap between the 1st and 2nd north-south buildings on the east side of Twin Trees.

    GZ then spends another full minute and thirty seconds talking to the police calmly and further describing his truck at the cut-through north of the first north-south building on Twin Trees. This is further backed by TM’s girlfriend saying that TM believes he lost GZ. GZ had stopped running to talk to the police.

    At this point TM is less than 100 yards from his home, is ahead of GZ and thinks he lost GZ. But, he didn’t use the time GZ remained on the phone to head home. We can only guess why.

    From GZ’s perspective, TM has escaped, GZ has given up the chase and he is just going to head back to his truck and meet the police at the mailboxes.

    However, at the end of GZ’s call, he indicates that he’s going to give one more look to see if he could re-locate TM as he tells the operator to have the police call him once they get there so he can give them his location.

    I think that scenario is pretty rock solid with all the information we have at that point. GZ saw TM loitering by the clubhouse, called the police, got nervous as TM approached him and was sure that TM was up to no good when he started running. TM saw GZstaring at him as he was walking home, as he got close he freaked out and started running south. Neither one of them actually did anything wrong at this point. It was just a bad combination of circumstances and paranoia.

    What happens next is speculation on my part but I think it makes sense.

    TM, having think he escaped is hiding between the buildings, either in the gap leading to retreat view circle or just south of there between the buildings.

    GZ, having finished his call with the police decides to walk through the gap to get one last look for TM before heading back to his truck to meet the police.

    TM spots GZ coming through the gap and tells his girlfriend that GZ is behind him again. I haven’t seen anything from the girlfriend actually quoting TM as having said he is cornered, just a quote that GZ is behind him again. GZ doesn’t see TM and starts to turn north. TM walks up to GZ, which fits with GZ’s claim that TM approached him from behind and explains why the altercation took place north of the gap between the buildings. This also explains why both GZ and TM’s girlfriend say that TM spoke first, asking GZ why he is following him, he was looking to find out why GZ was staring at him and then following him (when TM ran). GZ in turn says what are you doing here, or something to that effect.

    Again, nobody really did anything wrong at this point. GZ wasn’t actively running down TM, just walking between the gap to see if he could tell the police where TM was. And TM was just questioning why GZ was following him.

    It is only at this point that everything went bad as one of them assaulted the other. And to me, if GZ struck first, he is guilty of manslaughter/murder. If TM struck first, GZ can validly claim self-defense. Unfortunately we don’t have any witnesses to the start of the fight and only have GZ’s word on what happened.

    • Technically TM is in his backyard. Self-defense/stand your ground would belong to TM. Therefore it doesn’t matter who struck who first. I think GZ was between the buildings when he was finishing his call, spotted/heard TM, finished his call and went to “investigate”.

      • It was 100 yards north of his backyard. But that doesn’t matter. The funny thing is that they may both be justified under SYG. The only difference is that GZ won.

    • Normaly I do not hear the engine when someone is talking form a vehicle. You do hear the sounds you expect when people are shifting gears.

    • the school teacher heard angry voices; she wondered who would be out there when it’s pouring rain unless walking a dog. she saw a struggle about to start … “those men.” probably why the two women closet to the “T” didn’t hear scufflin; just whimpering–Tray’s last breaths. the women weren’t close enough to hear, but saw the end of it.

      i am wondering about the white tee & jon & reports of gun shot(s) from several callers.

  113. I agree with the first part of Don Rose’ scenario. Here’s mine:

    GZ leaves his house for the store. As he drives North on Retreat View Circle, he spots TM coming through the unfenced shortcut into the community.

    GZ slows and follows. TM crosses the street to the clubhouse and delays under the awning. GZ turns onto Twin Trees passing TM. GZ watches TM in rearview mirror.

    TM walks by GZ. They stare at each other.
    GZ: He’s checkin’ me out.
    TM: That was a creepy looking guy, cold eyes.

    As TM moves along Twin Trees, GZ follows slowly. TM tells his girlfriend he’s being followed. “Run!” says girlfriend. TM walks fast. GM tells SPD that TM is running.

    GZ drives to the right bend at Twin Trees, parks, and gets out.

    I’m starting to think the simplest answer is that TM slows to an amble after turning South at the T, talking to girlfriend again. GZ loses sight of TM.

    TM: I lost him.

    GZ hesitates after walking to the cut through. Still talking with the dispatcher, he walks cautiously, fearful of getting jumped. As he approaches the T, he spots TM and gets off the phone.

    Any holes in that scenario?

    • It’s possible but why turn on Twin Tree’s if TM is in front of the clubhouse? Wouldn’t it make more sense to stay on Retreat View Circle after passing by? He would lose sight of TM. Plus, we don’t hear the car engine at all during any of this. I also think that GZ would have told the police if TM had popped out of the woods instead of coming through the main gate. And it’s only 30 yards from the street to the T. GZ ran/moved fast for a good 20 seconds. He should have been able to run a good 100 yards in 20+ seconds, putting him all the way by where the shooting took place, not by the corner of the T.

    • One of those complaints Zimmerman reports a car driving slow with loud music and he claims they are checking out peoples cars. TRhat makes no sense that someone would be attracting attention to themselves with loud music while they case out the neighborhood.

  114. wow, second degree murder…not even manslaughter, they must have something big on him. Well done Angela Corey.

    • I just posted the same thing below

      “They have something we haven’t seen or heard”

  115. Well people.I have to wonder if .George’s version has got out to the media. His daddy could have been influencing this case all along. .Maybe they even let him talk privately at the police station with his son and the daddy cooked up the stories then. .Then the daddy got the laywers and told them what to say. The daddy could have come up with the ..Trayvon came up to the truck story. BTW wordpress sucks. .The window keeps shrinking and it does not let me edit

  116. I couldn’t tell it in a better way than “nolongerme”.
    Though, I still disagree with the speculative part of that scenario.

    GZ’s account leaked by Sanford PD, states that after hanging up, GZ went to check his location to help police when the Officer arrives.

    We don’t know where he went looking for an address. What we know is that he ended up in a scuffle on the back path between the two build rows two houses south from the T.

    We know that because it happened right at the threshold of “John’s” back porch. “John” is the witness who saw TM on GZ before calling 911.
    There is only one witness who was able to hear everything from the argument to the gunshot to the surrender to Police. She was also able to see from here window that the body on the ground was that of a young boy and that literally shocked her forcing the dispatcher to stay with her for 14min. Here is an example of what she said:

    Dispatcher: “Is this person laying down in the street?”
    Caller: “No, it’s from my back window [inaudible] sidewalk in the back area. People are coming over”
    Dispatcher: “So is the person laying down in the street or in the grass?”
    Caller: “No in the grass. Oh, my God! I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight. … I don’t know if that’s police or not. Oh, my God! He shot, he shot the person. He says he shot the person. He said he shot the person.”

    The conclusion I can draw from that is that witness leaves in the house right across the back path from “John’s”. Her testimony is pretty clear. She heard an argument between two men. The argument was not brief meaning it took some noticeable time before it turned violent.

    That tells me that TM and GZ where right behind her house when they started arguing, and that they stayed there during the scuffle. So, GZ was probably not walking west from Retreat View Cir at the T. He had to be walking on the back path.

    If GZ were walking south from the T when a encountered TM, then he would not be walking back to his truck as he stated.

    If GZ were walking north toward the T when a encountered TM, then he necessarily did more than just looking for an address as he had to go at least one block south on either Retreat View Cir or Twin Trees Ln, before walking back north .

    Either way, GZ’s account isn’t consistent with the location of the argument/scuffle/shooting.

    On top of that there are other inconsistencies:
    1) TM is said to be on top of GZ pummeling his head on the concrete. Police finds TM’s body laying in the grass face down both feet on the pathway. It takes quite a few flips to TM’s body to make it that way.
    2) TM pummeling GZ’s head on the concrete was life threatening. Sanford FD cleaned up his wounds and let him go with no treatment/bandage/band-aid suggesting whatever wound he had it was superficial.
    3) GZ was full of blood but his clothes had no trace of it.

    In fine, GZ has to be tried. I mean a kid has been killed. You can’t be satisfied with just the story given by the killer. No parent on heart would accept that.

    • We won’t know until the trial comes but I think these two witnesses kill GZ’s claim. The catch I had is why would a grown man go back inside to call police instead of breaking up a fight. Granted he may not have been able to break it up but most people don’t run to call the police when two young adults are fighting unless they see a weapon. This to me would mean that GZ had his gun drawn and TM was attempting to keep him at bay. The other peice would be if the ear witness heard GZ tell TM he had a gun and was going to use it. If TM was attempting to subdue GZ and he had his gun drawn that blows his self-defense claim out.

  117. Wow. Murder 2 charges for Zimmerman. In addition to some peace for Trayvon’s family, maybe we’ll get hear what really happened that night.

  118. I am trying to understand why Corey chose 2nd degree murder and not manslaughter. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this?

    • Actually I have the answer on the NYT:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting.html

      What the Charge Means

      By choosing to charge George Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, Florida Special Prosecutor Angela B. Corey selected the toughest possible charge involving a killing, short of first-degree murder, which requires a finding of premeditation and carries the death penalty as a possible punishment.

      Under second-degree murder, the jury must find that a death was caused by a criminal act “demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life,” said Eric Abrahamsen, a Tallahassee criminal defense lawyer, reading from the state’s standard jury instructions.

      The jury would be able to reject the murder charge, however, and opt for a lesser offense, including charges like manslaughter. The maximum sentence for second-degree murder is life in prison.

      – JOHN SCHWARTZ

    • Here is the Warrant for George Zimmerman’s arrest:

      It states that GZ displayed and threatened to use his gun.

      • Yes, Indeed. However, a claim is made here. Since carrying a firearm is legal in FL, I guess the ground for the arrest is in the rest of the sentence. I may have to read those sections to understand what the claim really is.

        Here is the sentence:
        “[…] the said George Zimmerman did carry, display, use, threaten to use, or attempt to use a firearm and did actually possess and discharge a firearm and as a result of the discharge, death or great bodily harm upon any person, contrary to the provisions of sections 782.04(2), 775.087(1) and 775.087(2), Florida statutes.”

      • hi thanks for this, its a little confusing though it says he did “carry, display, use, threaten, threaten to use OR attempt to use and did actually possess and discharge a firearm”. Does that mean he did all those things or because it says “or attempt” does it mean he did one or some of those things? Witness John said he told zimmerman “stop i’m calling 911″. Stop what exactly? stop yelling or maybe he had the gun out already or was threatening to get the gun out. I’ve always wondered why john told Zimmerman to stop. Good job finding the warrant.

  119. George Zimmerman was arrested today (04/11/2012) and charged with second degree murder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVeQmxKs00). I am actually surprised that they went for the murder charge, as I had expected some flavor of manslaughter.

    That the state is bringing the charge as second degree murder indicates that they do not see evidence of premeditation (that would be first degree murder), but believe that the murder was intentional and not justified.

    These are the charges:

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/118562269/George-Zimmerman-Information

    COUNT 1: MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE — In the County of Seminole, State of Florida, on Frebruary 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, did unlawfully and by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, kill Trayvon Martin, a human being under the age of eighteen, by shooting the said victim, and during the commission of the aforementioned Second Degree Murder, the said George Zimmerman did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm and did actually possess and discharge a firearm, and as a result of the discharge, death or great bodily harm was inflicted upon any person, contrary to the provisions of Sections 782.04(2), 775.087(1) and 775.087(2), Florida Statutes.

    Zimmerman’s mugshot is shown at http://newsone.com/2001898/george-zimmerman/ and I still have to say that this does not look like a nose that has ever been broken… which I say as a person who busted mine a couple of times (softball, basketball, an accidental elbow).

    • I wouldn’t go as far as to say he had a broken nose but there does appear to be a outline of a circle on his nose. Either way, I think the member’s of the subdivision should be questioned about exactly what role Zimmerman had as a watch. This case reminds me how back in high school, people would instigate fights and pump people’s heads up for no reason. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not saying that Zimmerman is a victim and should get off. It just seems that people were aware of his vigilante behavior and they were ok with it. His fellow watchman said that Zimmerman was fed up with all the crime in the area so maybe he was a bit emotional (or felt that he had the weight of everyone’s problems on his shoulders. We also know that Zimmerman was listed as the POC in the monthly bulletin for the subdivision in case anything suspicious was going on. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out if they had a few fired up meetings where George said that he would shoot the next person who tried to break in a house. Also, there’s no way you can convince me that nobody including his watch buddies had no idea that Zimmerman was armed while on patrol.

      I know he probably thought he was doing the right thing but it was a horrible judgement call and he will spend the rest of his life paying for it.

    • This shows that Corey and her Investigators through their investigation feel they can prove GZ pulled that gun on TM and TM stood his ground. I don’t see her filing 2nd Degree otherwise. They have something we haven’t seen or heard, watch and see!

    • That’s not his mugshot. It isn’t the shirt he was wearing that night and there is no plaque.

      • Correction, that’s his mugshot from yesterday, almost two months after the shooting. Of course he wouldn’t have visible injuries two months later.

  120. on Piers Morgan the brother Robert Zimmerman is now saying that after hitting GZ trayvon sat on his chest and covered his mouth and nose and that is why GZ thought he was going to die…because he couldn’t breathe, and with his last breath he was screaming for help. Hmmmmm, so now it’s not the repeated smashing of the face and slamming his head into the ground…now he was apparently suffocating and near to passing out. And he couldn’t get any air because his nose and mouth were covered and had blood running into the back of his throat, but it was him screaming (huh??? how does that work…)….and what happened to the fathers story that george and trayvon were wrestling over the gun because trayvon saw the gun….how if he was sitting on georges chest covering his face (whilst repeatedly bashing him in the face and smashing his head on the ground…depends on whose telling the story)…how did he see the gun that would have been behind him if he was on his chest. These people need to stop talking…their stories change too often and they are just contradicting each other.

    • Jo,

      Could you post the link?

      I’m usually not considering the accounts from GZ’s family/friends. They make his story more complicated and less consistence with facts.

      GZ’s brother is just saying: “OK OK, GZ’s head wasn’t banged that badly on the concrete. Actually, his head wasn’t banged at all. You know, with only 2 hands and one used to suffocate his victim, TM couldn’t really grab my brother’s bald head to smash it on the ground. BTW, it was not his yelling you’ve heard on that tape too. George was too busy searching for air.”.

      The gun story is from GZ’s father. The issue with that story is that Police Officer Timothy Smith found the gun and the holster in GZ’s band waist. That suggests to me that the holster and therefore the gun were never tied to GZ’s chest as I understood the father’s account. It also suggests that GZ was not planing to have the gun on him. He probably took it with him while in the truck when TM was walking toward him.

      There is a say in France: “One can choose his friends but not his family members.”. There’s definitely some truth in it. Though, when it comes to choosing friends, GZ should make a better job (I’m thinking about Frank Taaffe here).

    • Maybe the father’s story is really close to the truth. TM attacked GZ because GZ flipped back his jacket like an actor in the old western movies to show off his gun. TM knowing he has to subdue GZ or die, attacks him, and the struggle for the gun starts. TM knowing he is on borrowed time starts screaming for help.

    • hi tchoupi, i don’t have a link it was on tv. The brother just seemed to be making shit up….now it is that he couldn’t breathe and that is why he had to fatally shoot TM, goes against what he and his father have said in the past…. Piers did give him a hard time about Zim following martin but i’d like to know how he was screaming and getting his face smashed and getting his head smashed while TM was apparently smothering him. They keep making it up to suit their newest story. It might be on you tube..although i could only find the brothers old interview. You are right about not being able to chose family…the brother seems just as arrogant as i imagine Zim to be on the night in question….but they aren’t doing him any favours..

  121. I have looked at his previous mug shot and this newer one and find his nose looks the same. In addition, his eyes are very vacant, flat affect.

    If Trayvon called for help for over 45 seconds until the shot came, Zimmerman could have kept him at bay with the gun and waited until the police came holding Trayvon there. Zimmerman had major anger issues and was physically undermined by Trayvon’s physical power over him in their tussle ,so he likely got mad and shot, i think while taking a perverse pleasure in watching Trayvon squirm in fear and call for help with a pointed gun, as payback….. In his sociopathic mind he was never in the wrong, he was protecting his neighbourhood.

    Zimmermans previous outbursts of anger include charges with the police, his ex-girlfriend filing a complaint against him, as well as his getting fired as a party watch guard where he hurt someone who was drunk and then this:

    A resident, who attended an emergency homeowner’s association meeting after the shooting on March 1, told the Huffington Post how ‘one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home.
    ‘It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics’ in his neighborhood watch role, they added.
    Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, who is leading the investigation into the shooting, and a member of the city council both attended the meeting, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. Neither were available for comment.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114152/Trayvon-Martin-shot-dead-Police-say-theres-evidence-dispute-claim-neighbourhood-watch-captain-George-Zimmerman-acted-self-defence.html

    Tapes: I’m wondering if the security tapes caught any of this in the gated community?

    911 call by Trayvon: did anyone read this was confirmed that he placed the call while Zimmerman was following him? Apparently the FBI may have this knowledge.

    • In high school I can vividly remember watching a small (maybe 5’6″ 140 lb) hispanic student attack and beat up the vice prinicipal (over 6′, 200lbs, about 40 years old.).
      In basic training for the army, we had a training event in hand to hand combat. By far the best fighter was a small african american soldier. He was by far the best at hand to hand combat, and could easily beat up much larger opponents of all races.
      The idea that Trayvon Martn could not physically overpower a larger Zimmerman is ridiculous. It is possible that a smaller man could easily out fight and overpower a much larger man.

  122. It has been referenced to sounds of shifted gears in GZ’s police call. Can anyone pin point the exact moment(s) in the tape I should hear it?

    There is indeed a moment in the tape when GZ makes sounds that I can’t really grab. This is when TM passes him by:
    911 dispatcher: Yeah, we’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
    Zimmerman: OK. [1’34”] {Barely audible comment sounding like: Thanks god?!?}[1’34”] {Unidentified repetitive background noise indicating GZ moves or moves something around} These assholes, they always get away. [1’39”]
    When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. Audible windshield wiper: [1’41”]

    Is it that moment?

  123. Now that all the amateur investigators, speculators, and busybodies on this blog have solved the crime and and through collective thoughts — willed GZ behind bars, perhaps you can now direct your energies toward resolving some other injustices against innocent black youth.

    • No one’s perfect.
      I personally thank the moderator of this blog for his great job.
      He stated his objectives. I shared the same.
      He tried hard sticking to the facts. he hasn’t let insanity percolating in and yet he accepted opposing views.

      Bravo. The beer is on me if you ever come to Portland OR.

    • I’m sure if you were the one who had been shot and killed, or one of your family members in this manner, you would have no problem with this website. If you don’t like it, stay off it.

  124. Did anyone notice zimmerman mentioned Trayvon was black twice? Yet he never mentions anything else twice. george says he was wearing sweatpants or jeans but never seems to feel no need to tell which is was when trayvon gets closer.The second time he mentions the suspect is black is when he says he has his hand in his waistband. Sounds like profiling to me.

    • did you also notice that he was asked by the 911 dispatcher what his race was? duh!

  125. Are any of you people besides myself even putting your theory to the test of what you are hearing on those vids or are you all dead set of believeing it had to happen one way or the other? ?

  126. don’t expect these vids to be there if I have a chance to make a better one. You will just have to check the channel

  127. Yes, Ms Nila, thank goodness this case was not left under the rug. This investigation may never have happened if not for the Martin family demanding one. Corey has gathered the forensic evidence, such as how far away the bullet was fired and the location of the wound which will tell its own story.

  128. Your bias is overwhelming.

    Zimmerman never could have caught Martin. By the time he even got out of his truck after Martin starts running, Martin would have been halfway home. By the time Zimmerman gets near the area where the fight and shooting occur, Martin should have been inside eating skittles and drinking tea.

    • How is that bias? Zimmerman remained on the phone a full two minutes after Martin started running and the confrontation wasn’t for another minute or two after that. Martin only had to go a couple of hundred yards to get home and that should have taken less than a minute.

    • Perhaps he thought that he had gotten away and could finish his phone call in peace. It is possible that he didn’t want GZ to know where he lived to and may have gone an alternate route.

    • Sam that is a definite possibility. Other than if TM is scared and tries to hide to make sure he lost GZ. To many open holes to base anything on other than educated guesses. However anyone who can figure out what a 17 year old is going to do given any set of circumstances is better than me.

  129. http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/zimmermans-myspace-nickname-included-datniggy-family-insists-on-innocent-explanation/

    i wish they hadn’t published a photo of Zims wife for her own protection but it’s out there now. This is interesting because of the screen name Zim uses “datniggytb” and they question if the “tb” is trayvon benjamin. Of course if he has been using that name since before the shooting it is of course not a reference to Trayvon, but would be interesting to know if he changed the name after the shooting.

  130. I just have to say, I have enjoyed all of the comments on this site. This may all be speculation, but this is some of the most educated speculation I have seen. No hatred either like on other sites. I’ m just glad I found it. However, I feel like I may have to educate myself just a little bit more before I make any additional comments : )

  131. “you got me” was part of GZs fantasy that he was apprehending a criminal. It was created to attempt to put a confession into his victims mouth, “I am a bad guy and you got me, congratulations, captain George”…

    The next events don’t add up.
    1. DD hearing what are you doing here, to then Trayvons hoodie getting pulled by GZ, suggesting the altercation has already started. We don’t know how much she has condensed the timeline of what she heard.

    2. Now to the next witness in the time line. She hears a people arguing behind her house. This doesnt seem to fit with what sounds like a very short interchange described by DD

    3. Tracy Martin is told by Sanford police that GZ told them that, after words were exchanged, GZ reached for his phone and TM attacked him. Now, this tells us there is a BIG hole here. What was the result of the words exchanged? Why was GZ pulling out his cell phone? Was he trying to call dispatch and “tell them where he’s at”? Was TM under detainment, or otherwise why is GZ making a call? Is it suddenly a good time to order a pizza?

  132. At what point does GZ realize that Trayvon was not a robber who had been killed while prowling the community? If you think about it, this John Doe was a suspicious, threatening, punk, who always gets away, in the mind of GZ, until at some point, he finds out he made a mistake.

    Trayvon, once shot, maybe gets up to run home, and falls face first in the grass. GZ jumps on his back and straddles him to secure the mission. This must be when TM says you shot me.

    GZ must realize he has to lie his way out of this quickly. They have to have a reason to put him between the buildings, so he invents the idea that he was walking through the cut through, not to chase his victim, but to see the name of the street on the other side of the cut through.

    And am I the only one who finds it ironic that the street is called Retreat View and GZ was trying to view TMs retreat?

    • I don’t think Z realized he had shot an innocent kid till the next day when the police figured out who the victim was. Up to that point Z thought his coverup story was enough and he’d be seen as a hero in his subdivision. Then when the truth comes out as to the victim was and what trayvon really was up to (walking home) then Z’s story to his dad and brother starts to change to make T look guilty and justifying that Z shot him.

      • there was a witness that said she saw zim straddling trayvons body with a hand on his back…i wonder if zim was checking him for weapons….then walked off and put his hands to his head so maybe he realised then, this kid is only carrying sweets not a gun or a knive.

  133. If Trayvon really said “well you do now” (after asking Zimmerman if he had a problem) and “You got me” (after being shot), then he is at least guilty of watching too many Clint Eastwood movies.

  134. Here is something jumping out that speaks to the heart of the case:

    “According to the Miami Herald, local police went to the Seminole State Attorney with a request to file charges and the police report labeled the case as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.” On Tuesday, Martin family attorney Jasmine Rand insisted Wolfinger and Lee met to overrule the decision to charge Zimmerman.

    Wolfinger denied the lawyers’ accusation in a statement Monday, saying that no “such meeting or communication occured.”

    “I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump,” he said. ”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/trayvon-martin-case-marti_n_1422182.html?ref=trayvon-martin

  135. I noticed most News sources are using 7:09 as the time GZ called the SPD. Reviewing the call log does indicate the connection was at 7:09. Apparently the dispatcher created the call log at 7:11, which I mistook for the call in time.

    My bad.

    I have seen a picture of the front gate that clearly shows security cameras. Can’t find it this morning. Anyone else seen? There may well be some footage in the prosecution’s hands.

  136. It isn’t as clear in this pic, but there is a white video camera on the white pole. There is also a black camera pointed more to the left just below it.

  137. I am wonder about the 911 caller who recorded parts of the argument and if this is the evidence that Corey said that the press helped pull back. This is the one piece of evidence that disappeared before people got to widely view it. The FBI is supposedly viewing it. Apparently, there was speculation as to if it had come from Trayvons phone too.

  138. Here is my on foot comparison . Wind speed was higher here than the time Zimmerman was following Trayvon.My conclusion is that wind speed would have had to exceed 15 mph to have the much noise if George stopped running after agreeing to stop following. I made a point of breathing heavy on one recording . I do not think it is likely he was the cause of much of the wind noise unless he is in extremely poor shape.Wind speed in Sanford was slightly lower and I waited till a good breeze was going. Have not tested following by truck. I have car problems right now.I do not believe we here the wipers . I can not test now dead battery,but if it was wipers there should be sounds at regular intervals.

    • Just a remark concerning wipers. You can only hear background noise when no one is talking. Beside that remark, your experiments are pretty interesting. Thanks

      • possibly. I can only really make an educated guess. Testing the actual vehicle would be ideal. he could have been turning the wipers on and off also. maybe you could only hear the wipers from the outside in the first place and the earlier noses were gears shifting. I think the earlier noise are him putting the truck in park and drive. Zimmerman lifts on the left side of the community. he would probably approach the club house from the left.

  139. Pingback: The Facts and Zimmerman’s Story « Half Wisdom, Half Wit

  140. GZ is in neighborhood watch. Neighborhood watch is the eyes and ears of the police, GZ was within his rights, and doing a good job for nieghborhood watch by following someone suspicious.

    • http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

      Pg 25. Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

      Mr. Zimmerman took action well beyond the duties of neighborhood watch. He followed, confronted, and carried a hand gun.

    • No Mark, GZ was breaking ALL the rules for being on Neighborhood Watch. I really think the HOA is looking at a lawsuit.

    • dude the question remains, why did he find Trayvon Martin suspicious….the kid was walking…there would be no one left on earth if we all got shot for walking home.

  141. How’s this: As Trayvon walks by Zimmerman’s truck, Zimmerman displays his gun. Trayvon walks a ways, trying to act casual, then breaks into a run.
    Now he’s scared stiff and looks for a place to hide, not unusual for a kid whose scared. Zimmerman comes and hunts him down and shoots him.

    I don’t know about those injuries, he could have left home with them, who knows? After all he wasn’t observed. Maybe Trayvon saw blood in the car?
    That really would be scary eh? A stalker in a car bleeding? You’d be thinking “Friday 13 Freddy Kruger”.

  142. seems like in the 4 minutes GZ was on the phone, TM could have easily gone home. Instead, they fight closer to GZ’s truck than the place where TM was staying. Who was following who?

    • I think most people realize this — Zimmermans father could have been describing the time after George got off the phone He might not have been telling the truth about that. While he was on the phone he could have been cutting Trayvon off. He saw Trayvon as a stranger there,not someone staying in the area. Zimmerman mentions Trayvon is heading toward the back gate. He had no way of knowing where trayvon was going but could have imagined that is where he would try to get away.

      • But there are houses back that way, someone lives there. So, it’s obvious that GZ doesn’t believe that TM could possibly live in this community at all. He’s certain that TM is a criminal looking to commit some crime. But what crime could or would TM commit, if he was a criminal? With someone following him, GZ still fears that a crime is in the works?

        Why does Zimmerman refuse the opportunities to identify himself and ask questions? He’s the one breaking the rules, he hasn’t witnessed any crime. So, for all he knows, if the police arrive, after asking a few simple questions TM will be permitted to leave, since there’s nothing at all to charge him with, except the possibility of trespass. I wonder if people who live in the surrounding area, use these paths as a shortcut, instead of going all the way around the community?

        Obviously there’s a lot more we need to know. The trial will be very interesting.

  143. I think there were 3 people involved in the struggle. GZ, TM and t-shirt man (John?) because the knocking you hear on the 911 tape was GZ alerting t-shirt man that he needed help in tracking TM. T shirt goes out onto his dark back patio and then sees the altercation and jumps in before yelling he’ll call 911 and running into his house. The young witness who saw a red shirt on the bottom and a white t-shirt on top didn’t notice TM in dark clothing in the middle. At that point I think t-shirt man was trying to break it up and that is why he was involved. Anyway, whoever came out with the flashlight right after the shooting before the cops got there has to have been the one with the white t-shirt on and knew beforehand who fired the shot and what was going on. Otherwise are you going to grab a flashlight and run out into the darkness right after you’ve heard a shot right in your backyard if you didn’t know who or what was out there?

    • jon yes exactly, that is what i have been thinking and it’s been doing my head in. cheers

    • Gee, this fits my “premeditated” scenario work up see further on down.
      So now we may have T-shirt man involved. Perhaps he called Zim to let him know that TM was on his way out, and GZ should get ready.

      So as to make the wounds with a razor or knife, seem as fresh as possible, he needs a call from someone at the 711 to let them know TM is on his way back. Then GZ prepares the wounds and gets down to the front gate.

      The “wrench” in the works would be that it starts raining heavily, so TM doesn’t simply come straight in as he should. His 4 to 5 minute pause at the front gate, throws the expected timing off. So that probably accounts for why the story about what happens in that area had to be modified. But it’s hard to do a good job of modifying a story once you’ve rehearsed it.

      With someone to help, GZ could have shot TM anywhere and dragged the body around, trying to get things back on track with a script already prepared. GZ then lays in the grass with his head on the concrete, not wanting to mess up his head wound. and t-shirt man briefly jumps on top of him, then get’s off and moves quickly back into the shadows.

      Or maybe t-shirt man was there to slice GZ’s head and mess him around?

      In any event things are getting stranger and stranger.

      About the only thing that does seem clear is that GZ wasn’t about winding hostilities down. If he wanted to do that, he’d have simply identified himself. Plus, I don’t for a second buy that GZ didn’t know where TM lived, so many lies are told, that will have to wait for more credible confirmation. Just like everything else in this case.

    • Jon, The white T shirt observation is definitely something to consider. For one, what are the chances that someone would be lingering outside in the rain dressed like that, unless it was someone who heard the scuffle and then ventured outside to take a look.

  144. After listening to the 911 tape several times a few questions come to mind. Why did Trayvon run? Some will suggest because he felt guilty becasue he
    was “up to no good” (Zimmerman’s description). Thinking back to my youth and a moment when I ran was because I was scared out of my wits. I had seen and heard something that scared me. It also appears that Zimmerman was running and was told by the dispatcher ,”We do not need you to do that”. I believe Mr. Zimmerman did stop and return to his truck. On the tape, he says “Oh crap, I do not want to get an (inaudible word but sounds like alarm). I don’t know where this kid is”. I am assuming he is refering to the door alarm of his truck. There remains several more minutes on the tape where Mr. Zimmerman agrees to meet the police at the mailboxes near the clubhouse, but then ask to have the police call him when they arrive. Here is where I believe Mr. Zimmerman had decided he was not going to meet the police but was going to try and find Trayvon and alert the police to Trayvon’s location, at the very least or confront him. The problem is while Mr. Zimmerman believes the young man was up to no good, I believe, this may also have been what Trayvon was thinking about Mr. Zimmerman and this is what caused him to run. It is night, raining and a truck sitting along the road with a male inside watching as Trayvon passes. This assumption seems to be correct from the phone conversation Trayvon was having during this time that this man was following him. It appears Trayvon thought he had lost him and was no longer running, but his girlfriend suggests he run. Why? Because Trayvon was “up to no good” or because she had some concern about a man following Trayvon and wanted him to be safe. One thing is clear. Trayvon was where he was suppose to be..along a path toward his home. Mr Zimmerman was not..as in at the mailboxes in his truck. Anderson Cooper interviewed a witness that supposedly saw the whole thing as much as possible ..it was dark and he was inside his home watching through a back window and did not observe the whole encounter. Mr Cooper ask him who was on top during the struggle. The witness stated it was not so much a struggle as two men, one on top of the other “I would have to say it was the larger man because after the larger man got off there was a boy on the ground. He did say that they were not on the sidewalk but on the grass. If they were wresling on the ground..how did Zimmerman get to his gun? Or was it drawn already and they were fighting for the possession? The screams heard in the background were from a person that was terrified. Who has the most reason to scream..the one with the gun or the one seeing a gun? Mr. Zimmerman’s rush to judgement was the cause of this young man’s death. Though I tend to doubt some of Mr. Zimmerman’s statements (if they can be believed from media outlets) because they do not seem to add up..I am glad there will be a trial and he will be afforded that which he denied Trayvon. A fair judgement of his actions.

    • “One thing is clear. Trayvon was where he was suppose to be..along a path toward his home. Mr Zimmerman was not.” Well said Virginia.

    • Also, we now know that GZ says, after TM turned around and fell, GZ pounced on top of him. If so, then this witness only saw GZ getting up off of an already dead TM.

  145. I wonder if zimmerman smokes. That could be him taking a drag of a cig after he says he ran then him getting another cig right after.Or it could just be a sigh of frustration.It could be breathing from running also. It does sound like gears shifting early on but the noise right after he shuts the door sounds like it might be a wiper. I am not sure if he ran or drove while on the phone but he had to be moving fast even after he agrees to not follow..

  146. The whole looking for an address story makes no sense. George was on the phone over 4 minutes and gave no address . He had over a minute 45 seconds to find an address. While running he should have gone at least 150 feet. That still leaves over a minute to find an address. There was no hesitation when he agreed to stop so that shows his mind probably was made up if not to find that address than to cut Trayvon off. Maybe he was in rough shape after a beating as they say,but his mind was racing trying to think of a way to talk himself out of this so rather than just stay put he paces about. He had time to go the length of a couple of buildings on foot to cut trayvon off if he wanted to. Zimmerman says he ran at one point indicating that he probably lost sight of him when he went between the building and Zimmerman could have still been running twice as long or even longer than Trayvon did.

    • Yankee, I enjoy reading your viewpoints. I agree, the address excuse makes no sense, and is pitifully weak IMO. Here he lived in a small gated community for two years and didn’t know by first glance where he was!? He volunteered to be Retreat View NW Captain and was given written and verbal instructions only to be on the look out and report any suspicious activity and then wait for the police to arrive. The National Sheriff’s Assoc (NSA) says to not even carry a gun while on NW. Interesting that the NSA states this NW is not even registered with the NSA. After his call to SFD to inform of this assumed suspicious activity is when he placed himself in the position of NW captain by being on the alert and reporting. It was when GZ left his SUV with his gun in pursuit of TM’s whereabouts (while being on the phone to dispatch) he broke all the rules of NW and was then he acted the role as a vigilante by taking the law into his own hands. .

      NSA confirms Retreat View not registered with them. .

      http://trayvonmartinmurdercase.blogspot.com/2012/03/national-sheriffs-association-statement.html

      Here is what The Community Volunteer Coordinator who serves on behalf of Sanford police neighborhood crime watches, has to say.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/trayvon-martin-death-spotlights-neighborhood-watch-groups.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

      • @Caroline: Thanks, great article!

        Just what I’ve been saying, GZ was engaged in conducting a criminal act, once he left his car. He had already broken the NW rules, but that was excusable, since one can’t know when they’re going to spot a suspicious person. So, just having his firearm with him in the car, was excusable!
        But his following, in any way, was not! He should never have done anything that would have caused TM to suspect that he was being followed, since by doing so with a firearm on him, he’s breaking the rules and the law, even if he doesn’t exit his car.

        The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.”

        Now add the fact that NW is posted on a large sign at the entrance! I’m pretty sure TM had seen it over the course of time. So, at first I don’t think he was scared that he was being followed, because he could easily think that perhaps this was NW (of course, as the article points out and GZ had to know, Patrol is another program entirely. NW’s do not do patrols! Even if Taaffe thinks they do.)

        Okay, so The Right Honorable RZ says (and we can believe him right?), that his son told him, that he had told TM, that he wasn’t following him, when TM came over and asked! GZ did not issue a challenge, did not offer to identify himself or explain what he was doing, he simply lied, then continued to follow while armed. Then, when he’s arrested, he tries to explain that he’s NW, as to imply that’s what he was doing. If that is what he thought he was doing, he was engaging in the commission of a crime!
        As the NSA informs, and who should know better?

        SYG, is not for the protection of individuals during the commission of a crime! GZ should know that ignorance is no excuse for the law! Not that he was ignorant of the law, but he’ll probably try to claim it, given the givens.

      • From the article above, that Caroline posted, we see that there are two components to the NSA’s program. There are Watchers who do not patrol, and there are Patrols. GZ was not assigned patrol duties, only watch. Yet he was undertaking the acts of patrolling, and doing so unlawfully! Thus he became a criminal, the minute he caused an innocent person (even if suspicious) concern enough for their own personal safety, that they would express it by having to run! That is where GZ became a criminal! Even before he left his car he was engaging in an activity clearly prohibited by law, according to the NSA.

      • @Lonnie, it says it all doesn’t it. IMO George Zimmerman is very crafty but tries to play ignorant and I wonder how he will get himself out of this one.

  147. The theory of “john” as the white-t-shirt guy helping GZ in the scuffle doesn’t hold water.
    The reason is that the teacher who called 911 for 14min hasn’t seen him in the fight. Instead she is shocked that he wouldn’t help TM while the whole action happened just 3 feet from his patio.

    Let me give some details here…
    The teacher calls 911 and while on the phone, she hears GZ admitting of shooting TM. She then falls in a state of shock when she realizes that TM is a kid. From her own words, she says the boy was calling for help and no body, including her, would go help him. Because of that he is now dead.

    One interesting part of her long call is when she describes where the struggle happened. She says, that it was right behind her window, 12 feet from her, across the path. But, she also states that it was 3 feet from the porch of her neighbor across the back path. This can only be “John”‘s porch. She specifically refers to that neighbor when saying that it all happened just 3 feet from him and he wouldn’t help.

    We also know from “John”‘s 911 call that he indeed he wouldn’t help. He just said it straight: “I’m not going to help”. He also said that he asked to stop, locked his door and went upstairs to call 911. This is the now famous “Holy shit!!!” moment.

    What it all tells me is that “John” indeed opened his back door to check what was going on. He saw the two strangers fighting on the ground with TM on top. He asked them to stop but it was directed to both. he then followed with a threat of having police coming to arrest them both. By the time he called 911, TM was shot dead. The teacher refers to her witnessing of “John” non-intervention.

    It all leaves open the question about the nature of the knocking we can hear from GZ’s police call.

    I believe GZ is outside all the time after his chasing of TM. We can indeed hear cars/trucks passing not too far in the last minute of the call. We can’t hear car passing noises during the first 2 minutes leading to his “Shit!!! He’s running”. Instead, we hear wipers. So, after he said “he ran”, GZ knocks on something(s) maybe to scare the kid who, he believes, is hiding somewhere near (cf. “I don’t know where this kid is.”). That would fit with the fact that GZ wasn’t on any simple way from/to an address look up as he claimed to police.

    The white t-shirt is also a mystery to solve. Is it TM without his dark gray sweater? Is it GZ’s light green t-shirt mistakenly seen white? Is it TM’s dark gray hoodie perceived as white?

    • I only found value in the school teacher’s 911 call. It’s the only one that showed true emotion in my opinion.

      John’s call creeped me out a bit. Something didn’t add up even before tapping was heard at the end of George’s 911 call. Has anybody asked how John could have pronounced Trayvon dead from inside his apartment while running around? I understand other callers said they thought Trayvon was dead too but the way John said it seemed super hollow yet very knowing.

      • john seemed shocked….he told zim to stop, on his way upstairs to call 911 he heard a shot. When he looked out and realised TM was dead he was shocked….he told zim to STOP…shit, someone is dead…shit shit shit. The woman that said “john” wouldn’t help didn’t see all of it….john may have left to call 911 by then. He already admits he was out there.

      • hence the two pops at least two or three heard. one male caller said it otherwise had to be a rocket.

      • the teacher could have seen john. the first flashlight wasn’t an officer. john came out to see it. and john told the media he would do the same as zimmerman.

        the teacher mentions a flashlight before she recognizes the police. i’ll need to check this, though.

    • I think both the teacher & john show guilt for not having the courage to intervene. In the case of the teacher, it shows up as a total meltdown. In that of John, it’s more his nervous tone when admitting that he isn’t going to help.
      We have two “opposite” characters here. The teacher sounds like a older lady. While John is a young man. He was actually few weeks away from marrying the owner of the house he was in when that all happen. http://registry.weddingchannel.com/coupledir/20123/G/R322092284/JOHNATHAN_GOOD_AND_AMANDA_SELJAN.htm.

    • I still think the white t shirt belongs to whoever ran outside and spoke to GZ right after the shooting but before the cop showed up. I think t shirt was only out there for a moment or two at the very beginning of the confrontation then ran inside to call the cops. The school teacher didn’t look out her window until after t shirt was away from the struggle. One thing for sure is that there is so much forensic evidence with this case it will be very revealing as to exactly what happened when the evidence is all released to the public during the trial.

      • In other words, I still feel white t shirt is the John guy. I Still feel John knew who GZ was. Maybe he wasn’t trying to physically break up a fight between GZ and TM but I still feel he was standing close enough to the scuffle to be taken as one of the fighters by witnesses, the one wearing the white t shirt. Remember that the young boy witness saw white ontop of red, no mention of the dark clothing that TM had on. I feel this is where John was close enough to be blocking out TM. When the school teacher looks out she sees GZ ontop of a dead TM. John had already run into his house to call 911 right before she looks out

      • yep for sure…..john came out cause zimmerman was knocking on his door, maybe he originally tried to help zim hold martin thinking the kid must have done something wrong, that could be white t-shirt guy, then he said i’m calling the cops and went back in. He has to know zimmerman, maybe his was one of the voices (zim has a highish voice, johns voice is quite deep) that the witness said she heard yelling. I really really think zim knows this witness. If he came out with a flash light and was talking to zimmerman (as per the lady witness said on tv),then where was he when the cops arrived..why had he disapeared. I wonder if he told the cops he went outside with a flash light before they arrived. It’s crazy. Hope they investigate this link.

      • teacher heard louder voices than her kitchen tv. she wondered who would be out there unless walking a dog b/c it’s pouring rain. she looked and cried, “those men.” she saw what looked like the start of a scuffle between “men.” she cried, “what are they doing.”

        and she also stated that she did not want to be a witness or nothing. so, there you go.

        john couldn’t have helped b/c of the tag team effort with SPD & Retreat’s neighborhood watch startup. a telling fact is that John & and at least one other neighbor that called 911 (plus the 1st responder knew beforehand that Trayvon was already dead). No CPR attempt on Trayvon until 2nd officer/unit arrived. how come?

  148. Yea I lean toward believing zimmerman was on foot now after listening several times. It sounds more like a wiper sound at 2:16 and the 4 short breaths in a row at 2:38 after he says he ran. I still think you hear gears shifting early on. George lived on the west side of the neighborhood which means he could have seen Trayvon going behind the clubhouse from the left side and been moving towards Trayvon as he approached from the right side of the clubhouse.I think you only hear wiper sounds because the door is opened.Any one have any other ideas about the sounds when the wind stops? I lean toward Zimmerman cutting Trayvon off as he did not even seem to hesitate when he agreed to stop following because he was not flowing after the firsst few seconds.he was cutting him off. I lean toward it being Trayvon knocking on a door . I noticed it is the defense fighting to keep the records sealed. They may want to put their own spin on whats in those records because it looks bad for them. Thats my suspicion anyway.

  149. George could have went south past 2 buildings.Cuts over to the east. Has Trayvon cut off. He goes all the way to retreat circle. trayvon could be knocking on a door just north of him. Trayvon cuts over to between the buildings-goes north. Zimmerman goes straight ahead-north -then west heads to between the buildings.-cuts Trayvon off again .

  150. Trayvon could have made the mistake of thinking Zimmerman would try coming up behind him if he was following and not be cutting him off so he sees no one behind him after he goes to the middle of the buildings keeps talking on the phone and suddenly finds Zimmerman is ahead of him.

  151. You know, it could be that there’s another racist in the community working with Zimmerman, who helped set Martin up. That’s another possiblity that hasn’t been explored.

    • It’s possible or maybe not, no way to know unless someone looks for it.
      The place to look would probably be to start with Zimmerman’s phones.
      My guess is (if this were true) he’d have received a call from someone in a position to see Trayvon leave home, and give Z a call to prepare.

      A call would then go to 7-11 where someone there (a worker?) would be asked to notify when Trayvon leaves. So, if the calls were logged as calls usually are by the software that runs them, there’d be a small flurry of calls between the people involved. Of course, at this late date it’s hard to say that any logs would still be preserved.

      I guess I just got a little paranoid when I see people saying things in Zimmerman’s favor that are very unlikely to have occurred that way, then asserting that they had run away and didn’t see much of anymore importance. It’s more natural for people (especially men) to watch altercations, not turn away and miss the action. Could it be this guy doesn’t want to say very much, because he doesn’t know much about what Zimmerman will be saying? But he knows that it will be at odds with what he actually saw? That would be my guess, so far.

      That aside, Z seems to be saying that he shot Trayvon, while he was still on his back on the ground. Then again he seems to be trying to say that he shot Trayvon when they were both standing. Obviously both of these conditions cannot be true. But the wound path will eliminate one of them.
      But, as some have said, they weren’t both standing again, until after the supposed attack, and the danger it represented, had abated.

  152. Guys, you have to listen to what the “John”, the teacher and the female caller at 1231 Twin Trees Ln have said on tape.

    I’ll start with 1231 TTL. She said she saw white t-shirt on top. So, that means white t-shirt was part of the struggle.

    I’ll go then with “John”. He said that he told them to stop, locked his door and went upstairs to call 911. On his way up he heard the gunshot. During the call, he looks through his window and sees the guy on top now laying on the grass and he believes he’s dead.

    So, it is indeed possible “John” was outside helping GZ with holding TM until Police comes. But, in this case, he had to lie on the 911 call when he says that he is not going to help.

    The other hypothesis, and it sounds more natural to me, is that “john” heard the cries right behind his door, open the door, sees two strangers in a scuffle, asks them to stop and goes upstairs to call 911.

    The teacher his the best witness we have (apart from an elderly who never called 911 but who’s account fits well the teacher’s). She heard two men arguing outside, then there was a short pause, and the arguing came up again. She then looked outside thought her window and saw TWO men in a scuffle. She even says that there was not much movement but she wouldn’t say who’s who. At no time she saw a 3rd person.

    The flash light guy can only be Officer Smith. There is no time for a 3rd person to come and disappear before Smith arrives. And the Officer saw no body else but TM and GZ.

  153. interesting that when zimmerman apologised he was silly enough to say he didn’t know how young Martin was and he thought he was a little younger than him…..but on the SPD tape he told them he looks in his late teens…oops

    • Did George Zimmerman lie under oath already?!? That’s also what I’m suggesting in the posting’s update section – Nice observation!

      I was on a slight DVR delay but as soon as I heard Zimmerman say he thought Trayvon Martin was just a few years younger than him, I tweeted…

      • I took note to that too! First thing popped in my mind was “wait, he said late teens in the 911 call” The highest you can go in teens is 19 so that would make TM 9 years younger! This guy is an idiot! If the prosecutions can not break him on the stand they are weak!

      • “Did George Zimmerman already lie under oath?!?”

        You betcha!!! Just this morning I heard on the news that he said he thought Trayvon was about his own age. And yes, I remember that he said “in his late teens”, but that was when his efforts were directed at making him look as suspicious as he possibly could. Now that it’s a bail hearing, he has to roll back that effort, to make it appear that age was not a part of his calculations.

        Goes without saying that you can easily see how Zimmerman wends and winds his story, in an effort to get around and/or satisfy NW rules, he’s supposed to know nothing about, despite having taken the SPD’s 14 hour course on NW, being appointed captain, and therefore expected to pass those same rules on to newer members. So you quickly realize that Zimmerman’s story of that night is chock full of contrivance!

        Glad to see you caught it too1

  154. warning..zims head before it was cleaned up

    there is some blood but heads do bleed a lot, still hard to see how bad the abrasions were

      • Seems to me that Zimmerman’s only real opportunity to get these wounds would have been at home, before he started out. He couldn’t very well tell what would happen at the scene, so any wounds needed would have to be prepared in advance.

        Now, what makes me postulate that is: There’s no evidence on Trayvon, that he engaged in any fight with Zimmerman. There’s only Zimmerman’s word, and that word goes from “struggle for the gun” to “broke my nose with a punch”. But either or both of those activities would have left them both with marks on their bodies, major marks. Marks that could not be missed by an experienced mortician or the morgue staff.

        My guess is that this will be part of the prosecutors case!

    • My husband had a two inch gash head wound in almost the same spot which bled a little and required stitches.

  155. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849 hmmmmm could this be john…sounds almost like he knows zims wife…..a witness who heard but did not see took this photo of zimmermans head (why?? getting their story straight) and that zimmerman asked them to call his wife, when asked what to say, “just tell her i shot somebody”…….don’t know if zimmerman gave the person his wifes number but some of us here suspect john and zimmerman knew each other so this could be interesting.

    • Exactly! I mentioned this in the update but then got to thinking…

      Would the defense really want “John’s” picture of Zimmerman’s bloodied head going public when sleuths like us on this blog posting already have questions about this “John” witness?

      • the pix was an ABC exclusive. i’ve heard ABC paid Casey Anthony’s defense bill 2k. A revelation from her atty on a news talk show.

        i will guess teacher was already on the phone w/ possibly another dispatcher, which explains why she missed the actual shooting. How can John go upstairs … the furthest distance in his place for a phone? John may have been there throughout. Speculation, of course.

      • This picture sounds fishy to me. I think it was released for its shock value effect and to gain sympathy from Zimmerman supporters. Incidentally, if the photo was taken with a digital camera it would not be allowed as evidence in court as they are very easy to alter. Is it also a fact if a photo as this was taken by Sanford police detectives it would never be allowed to go viral before the actual trial?

        • I haven’t read up much on the picture of Zimmerman’s bloodied head but I thought I saw something that said it was taken with an iPhone and there’s an accurate time/date stamp? Not sure though.

          • It was also gps enabled so there’s location data as well.

            But, it appears to contradict Zimmerman’s claims that his head was bloodied by being bashed repeatedly on concrete, then rolled around in the grass during a fight for life with Trayvon.

            I think the defense will probably object to having it entered as evidence.
            Because it doesn’t support their stor(y)(ies).

  156. Questions about the bloody head photo releasted today…

    If Zimmerman’s head had been upright, it would have dripped straight down… It looks like the blood ran when zimmerman’s head was facing down, which makes it seem he must have been on top of Trayvon after the injury.

      • Very good observation Toneii. Also, why didn’t Zimmerman have defense wounds on his hands. If TM were on top of him, wouldn’t GZ use his hands to try to get TM off? But there were no hand wounds on GZ and per the coroner, TM had no scratches or abrasions on his face. Only a bulletwound to his chest. Wouldn’t he have some scratches from GZ fighting him off in this so called life or death struggle?

    • toneii, this comment of yours hadn’t been published yet when i made my comments below but you are absolutely right, that makes a lot more sense than my scenario. I didn’t think the blood looked like it had flowed that way had he been laying on his back in a struggle and i think your scenario is a good one.

  157. well, apparently zim had a flashlight on him too….those head injuries are little cuts, maybe he got “john” to whack him on the back of the head with the torch before he got him to take photos…..why did he get the witness to take the photos just after he had shot a kid, didn’t take him long to start covering his ass, didn’t he have more important things to think of than collecting evidence of his injuries.

    • I won’t go as far as to say Zimmerman was smart enough to fake his wrestling injury by having another person beat him up at the crime scene – like the 25th Hour (great movie!) – but I can’t say the thought didn’t cross my mind. I would definitely like to see as much crime scene/police car surveillance video and pics as possible!

      And, there better be a lot more crime scene photos coming from that witness. A lot more photos. And, not just of Zimmerman’s supposed broken nose. Otherwise, I’ll be very suspicious.

      • yeah i agree its a bit far fetched but i couldn’t understand how the blood wasn’t smeared during a struggle, it all looks too neat with a flow of blood trickling down and off to the side. I have now seen toneii’s post above and think that is a really good explanation. Don’t understand why he got this witness to take a photo though, isn’t that the job of the police? cheers

  158. sorry, another comment. If he got those injuries while on his back on the ground, struggled to get his head off the sidewalk and onto the grass, was then smothered and was fighting for a gun……why isn’t the blood smeared over the back of his head? Why does it look like he got the injuries whilst in the position he is posing in for this photo? his head is forward, the blood is trickling down and off to the side, certainly doesn’t look like he had those injuries while he was struggling on his back, never heard of blood trickling upwards before.

  159. Those new pics certianly suggest a scuffle. But that’s not news on this blog.

    I happen to believe the State will submit that the screaming was that of Trayvon Martin. If proved, that means Trayvon gave up the fight for more than 40 seconds. Mr. Zimmerman continued to fight to point the gun and shoot the 17-year old.

    That, IMHO, would be more than reasonable to convict on Murder 2 charges.

    Pretty cold blooded if you ask me. And in keeping with Mr. Zimmerman’s “snapping” and “losing it.”

      • Certainly if the screams prove to be Trayvon then Z is toast. The simplest legal construction of what happened is it was a fight. In fights both parties enter the fight voluntarily and both are permitted to leave when they “tap out.” Likewise both are responsible for the outcome. In this case manslaughter minimum. If Z continued the fight after Trayvon tapped out.

    • Thanks for posting this. I hadn’t read any of his direct questioning before now. It sounds like George was feeling pretty confident by the end. It was totally inappropriate for him to apologize. When I first read that he told the parents that he didn’t know whether Martin was armed or not, it seemed like an odd admittance. It is almost as if he implies that he went back for the gun at some point. I hope that there is video of some part of this incident. I hope that Florida can show that the voice of victim will be heard. If they can’t sort it out, it means this law will also protect those with criminal intent.

      • I guess Zimmerman was (stupidly) responding to Trayvon’s family who wanted him to specifically answer the following…

        1) Why did you stalk somebody so young?
        2) Did you know Trayvon was unarmed?

        Instead of answering the family’s questions on his website or through lawyers, Zimmerman spoke on the stand (and then lied under oath). I’d HATE to be Mark O’Mara — what a pain in the ass client.

      • so zim thought trayvon was going to kill him and that he might be armed….if he was armed and wanted to kill you why didn’t he pull out his weapon and kill you then instead of trying to smother you to death and fighting over your gun. nup, doesn’t make sense.

  160. Nice pix from GZ’s head. I wonder who could have been with him 3min after the gunshot while Officers were already there? This is really confusing. I may have to reconsider my views on “John”.

  161. Would venture to say like this blood looks like it has already been wiped off and that this is the second flow. Reason is the edges all look so clear. Anytime I have ever had a cut of any significance there is always a main channel. With drippage. Then after the blood starts to slow down then it spreads. Like here. First flow is always a lot messier.

    • Well they also said that this pic was taken 3 minutes after the incident so that would mean that someone was outside almost immediately trying to clean George up. This is all too confusing to me. George says that he didn’t think TM was hurt and that was why he was straddling him after the shot. The woman witness said that after she heard the shot, she saw GZ pacing back and forth as if he was worried (he knew he did something wrong). She also said GZ’s hands were on his head so the blood should be smeared and on his hands. There has to be another 3rd party who was involved and has not come forth. If I heard a shot outside, I would be hesitant to run out and see what’s going on especially if it was as dark as everyone says. Maybe John cleaned him up and jetted out. The main question should be whether or not GZ blood is on the pavement and if it is smeared all the way to TM’s body. Also, isn’t it convenient that this photo leaked the day of his bail hearing? We should have seen this back when the police station video leaked.

      • So what if GZ had a few cuts on his head. TM had a bullet hole in the chest. GZ was stalking TM. All this bull about GZ using the stand your ground law is rubbish. You don’t pursue someone, creep that person out, then claim stand your ground when the scared, pursued person stands their ground. The cuts weren’t that bad. Seems as if maybe he got his head bumped alittle bit during the initial “struggle” then after the shooting the wounds had started bleeding enough to start trickling blood. Didn’t even need stitches. And why not snap a pic of the broken nose that was causing blood to gush into GZ’s throat per GZ’s brothers account? And it was pitch dark out there so how could TM see that GZ had a concealed gun on him if GZ hadn’t threatened TM with it? Even if GZ’s jacket came open during the “struggle” and he were on his back with TM on top. How could GZ even have seen that TM noticed the gun.

        Gz’s story about looking for an address is rubbish too. You don’t need to go inbetween townhomes on a dark path that leads between the back of them to find an address. There isn’t going to be any address there. Also no need to walk across the cut through sidewalk to the other street to find an address. That’s not where your truck is and where the police are going to meet you. Just get an address from the front of one of the townhomes where your truck is parked near. There was no need for GZ to go down the cut through sidewalk.

        GZ’s apology was self serving. I really think he still believes all this will just go away. He told the dispatcher the suspicious person was late teens. During his apology he said a few years younger than himself. Even that story is changing to benefit himself. Oh, I didn’t know it was a teenager I was defending myself against!

        Also, notice how his family members have gone quiet once they realized they were giving conflicting stories.

  162. The talk about the fight is pure fiction! In wrestling over control of a gun, both parties realize they’re in a fight for their very lives. They go all out and their death like grips and other actions, leave serious marks, bruises, fabric burns, scrapes, twists, tears, scratches etc., all over one another and especially bruises on the wrists. These things are not in evidence! So, no such things occurred in fact, but only as artifacts in Zimmerman’s story, as he struggles to bring his own actions in line with, or excuse his violations of watch rules.

    What happened that night should have never occurred if Zimmerman had obeyed the rules he was given, with his command of the neighborhood watch!
    There was no pressing need for Zimmerman to do anything more than make a phone call to 911, to get police to come investigate.

    There was no pressing or immediate need to apprehend Trayvon, since neither Zimmerman nor anyone else can claim that Trayvon had committed any crime from which he might be trying to escape! A “suspicious person” is not a criminal, nor is mere suspicion a reason for a law abiding citizen to interfere with or follow another person, as police directives point out.

    Since Zimmerman took it upon himself to do more than required, and take actions he knew were prohibited, based on his merely having sighted a suspicious person, then Zimmerman becomes an aggressor from that point on! It is Zimmerman’s own acts of aggression that lead to this tragedy!

    Trayvon had not even trespassed on anyone’s property! Yet, he winds up being killed by Zimmerman, because Zimmerman refuses to leave him alone!

    Zimmerman needs to be made an example and held responsible for his failure to heed the rules he was given.

  163. I have noted in NW materials that the leader is supposed to establish a “call tree”, of people who he notifies or notify him when there is a suspicious person or activity happening, this is in addition to notifications to the police.

    It’s easy to see that Zimmerman’s claim of having come out of his house, just moments before Trayvon enters the estates on his way home, on a sudden need to shop. The nearest thing I can imagine to a timeline, would have Zimmerman leaving his house, during the heaviest part of the rain, while Trayvon was waiting under the awning, which is also where Zimmerman did not see him.

    Since Trayvon has waited and only left shelter, after the rain slows, to see him where he was walking, Zimmerman has to leave his garage within half a minute or so. Because it’s only about 300 feet?

    If Zim leaves a minute or two earlier, or a minute or two later, he completely misses any view of Trayvon. So it’s a pretty darned narrow window in time that he “coincidentally” occupies, that sets these things in motion. Yet, Zimmerman is there right on time! Would this have happened if Trayvon had dwaddled at the store for another minute or two, or left the store 2 minutes earlier? Only if Zimmerman had spotters, could he possibly arrange to meet Trayvon, short of parking his car near the front gate around 7pm and waiting, in the rain, with no idea that anyone would be out walking. But that would be “patrolling” wouldn’t it? And that would bring all those pesky rules in!

  164. The wounds in the picture, supposely taken at the scene by “John” don’t look minutes old to me. Besides the head appears to be shaved around that area.

    The state investigator can’t say who started the “fight”, probably because they can’t say that any such fight even took place! This answer appears so truthful that it appears they have Zimmermans goose already cooked! Because the state, it appears, will not be relying on who started the altercation, to make their case. Just my take.

  165. Will, I wondered the same thing when I saw it posted and here was my response on MSN:

    Whose this strange person that came up to George minutes after the shooting and took photos of his bloody head…where’s photo of the bloody broken nose?! How is it they also managed to see ‘visible gun powder residue’ on Trayvon’s hoodie?! When was this person able to see that? Because initial reports are that Trayvon was face down in the grass after being shot…would’ve only been turned over after the officer arrived and began CPR…and if this person was that close, then it says they hadn’t properly secured the crime scene. Is it same witness that claims to have seen Trayvon on top of George, which I’m not saying isn’t likely if he were defending himself. Oh, and first thing you say to this stranger is, “call my wife tell her I just shot somebody”?! So who does wifey call?! Daddy! Guess that would explain how he may have used his influence as former judge to get DA involved so quickly…But like the rest of us, I’m just speculating!

    • Good point Tina. I forgot all about TM being face down after the shot. I read another article here at

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

      and it says that GZ said that TM turned and fell face down after being shot in the chest. If there was gun powder on his hoodie, this iphone guy would have had to check the body and then put him back face down before the police arrived. It will be interesting to hear this person’s testimony especially since it doesn’t really align with GZ’s story.

      • Everyone keeps forgetting that everything out there was wet, including Zim and Trayvon, the concrete and the grass. How a wet hoodie picks up powder burns I just can’t figure out.

      • Thanks for the link…you know, something that’s usually found to be true when you have a situation of having to take someone’s word over another when the other person isn’t able to give their version…is that in the end, it comes out that the very comments the victim is supposed to have uttered, have been infact changed up to suit the accused’s version of events and actually said by them. Trayvon is supposed to have said, “ok, you got it”?! what sense does that make…if he was able to say anything after being shot, I’d be willing to bet he said, “oh, you shot me!”. George told his father and brother that when Trayvon saw his gun, he supposedly said, “You’re gonna die tonight”, again, I believe that’s what George said to him.

  166. Now nearly a month later, with more tapes published, let’s have another look.

    Every map so far shows TM going down the path. One shows GZ standing at the top of the path to finish his 911 call.

    A big issue is being made of the missing minute or two…… why could TM not have run home while GZ was still yapping on the phone?

    Because that is not how it started.

    SCENARIO covering the claimed “facts” AND the missing minutes:

    1) GZ could not have been inside the complex when he first saw TM. IF he was on his way out where he called from, he could have observed TM only a short distance from the complex entrance to the clubhouse, no time for him to be acting suspiciously.
    2) he tells 911 TM is staring at him and approaching him. BUT TM asks him Why are you following me? which he could not say if GZ was just parked ahead of him ( ie where he had not yet walked). As he had just entered the complex, GZ must have followed him IN, therefore had to be OUTSIDE when he first noticed TM walking towards the complex……..then driven past him and stopped to make the call.
    3) after the talk with TM, he says “he is running” towards the other (southern) gate. This makes sense, as that is where TM was staying. NOTHING about him being on the footpath behind the buildings, just “running”.
    4) GZ sounds breathless and in pursuit ON THE ROADWAY. Maybe just jogging or walking fast. TM cuts in between houses to be able to hide, a long way down the street.
    5) aware that he is being followed (he calls the girlfriend or she calls him, either way he says he’s being followed) he does not want to be standing at the door, trying to get in (key? waiting for brother to let him in?) with his BACK TO THE STALKER, a sitting duck, with nowhere to run. So he keeps going UP the footpath looking for bushes etc to hide in.
    6) GZ follows him up the path and the confrontation happens. TRUE GZ was travelling in a direction back to his truck… but because TM was also going that way, NOT to get back in the truck. TRUE TM “circled around” but AHEAD of GZ, not behind him.

    There is the missing 2 minutes.

    TM’s “criminal” history is 110% irrelevant. GZ could not have known any of the history — he was suspicious of him because he DID NOT KNOW HIM. And then because he ran away. TM meanwhile ran away because a weird stranger, who had just denied following him, WAS NOW CHASING HIM.

    GZ, on his own territory, armed with hollow-point bullets, had no reason for fear until he was getting beaten. TM, being stalked, had plenty of reason for fear even before any confrontation….. and every right to stand his ground, his attempts at withdrawing from the situation having been thwarted by GZ continuing o follow him. Apart from his phone already being in use, what was he going to do? Call 911 and say “I’m a black kid I am not sure where I am there’s this white guy following me?” ????

    If his path of further escape was blocked, why would he not be within his rights to push out of the way the person blocking him? if you’re trapped against a wall by someone you have reason to fear, are you supposed to just stand there quietly and wait to be killed? So if TM DID strike the first blow, I believe he’d be within his rights under the SYG law.

    Then the adrenalin kicks in, the fight is on……..and it is GZ’s turn to be in fear for his life. And out comes the gun, possibly further escalating the struggle over who is to have control of it. Probably both of them are screaming for help. The eventual shooting is “accidental” ie not premeditated, and GZ is in total shock about it. He carried that gun to feel safer, not to ever use it.

    Of course he FEELS innocent, never meant to shoot anyone; knows the police are on his side; only has to tidy up the story to omit the distance he chased for; not lawyer up and thereby look guilty…………and it nearly worked.

    I don’t believe his suspicions were racial profiling. It was a stranger, walking around slowly in the rain, not “normal”. The race issue comes into it only because police did not charge the white shooter of a black victim, when in the reverse situation they most likely would have. It was not GZ being accused of racism, it was the POLICE, who have a strong record for it in that particular town, including the incident GZ helped get justice for.

    SYG for GZ? definitely not. Murder 2? definitely not. Manslaughter yes, whatever the lowest version of that is in Florida, because a trigger was pulled, someone died, and the situation was started by the guy with his finger on the trigger.

    A tragedy all round. A tragedy perhaps avoided if people were not allowed to run around with guns… without which GZ would certainly have been more cautious, and the whole incident never happen.

    • That’s a good take. Where was Zimmerman’s truck parked again? In/Near the Northeast crosswalk/cut through — directly east of the clubhouse facing west?

      If so, and if Trayvon is at but then leaving the clubhouse between :55-1:00 of Zimmerman’s 911 call, the timing of GZ having a faded tone when saying “Ok…these assholes always get away” between 1:34 – 1:40 doesn’t add up since Trayvon would still be in front/near Zimmerman’s parked car.

      I haven’t wanted to speculate the path of either person after Zimmerman clears the area on the northern part of the T in the sidewalk and hangs up the phone until the trial since there are so many variables.

      I give little credit to Zimmerman correctly saying what area/direction Trayvon was running in given his miserable track record of offering detailed directions throughout the call. Any direction other than north has to be considered “the other direction…towards the back entrance” in my opinion.

      • Treyvon’s father said the police told him….

        “He told me Zimmerman’s story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.”

        This is either
        1: untrue and never happened OR
        2: happened around/before the 911 call in which he says TM is coming over to check him out.
        3: to anyone “normal” would indicate TM was innocent, not a suspect.

        At this stage he had no opportunity to follow TM UNLESS it was before they both entered the grounds. TM was under the awning of the clubhouse, GZ was parked facing the clubhouse and in TM’s path towards home. No running etc had yet started.

        I can’t hear anything like this on the call. It may have happened much earlier (eg at the gate) or just happened, and the “coming over to check me out” part of the call was a lie, a description of what had happened 1/2 a minute earlier, to cover his @ss/make him sound more suspicious.

        Oh he says “button” singular, I think he means one of those big pin-on buttons with some slogan n them. Still not too easy to see from a distance. He saw this close up. But he’s unsure about the pants (jeans or trackies look quite different in every respect). Sounds like he’s describing someone he’s just seen close-up but only from the waist up, like the other is standing outside his door.

        If this conversation did happen, what a missed opportunity to say “I am neighborhood watch….”

        Also, who said he left home 300 yards away at 7.09? the time of the call? he could have left 10 minutes before, driven out, seen someone suspicious heading towards the community…….followed him, had the above talk (or not) and only called the police when he was safely and legally inside the area he was supposedly responsible for. I mean, they won’t come out if he says there’s a young guy walking along the main road outside, right?

        (All this coming from someone who’s gone out to challenge the police in a marked car as to why the’y’re sitting outside my house with engine running and headlights on).

      • The scenario is plausible, but I have a problem with paragraph 1).

        GZ told his father he was suspicious when he spotted Trayvon walking between buildings, not on the pathways.

        It makes more sense that GZ was driving from his home on Retreat View and saw TM come through buildings near the shortcut from outside the community.

        I also don’t believe GZ and TM had contact before the call to SPD. GZ’s comment “He’s coming to check me out.” has enough anxiety in it to suggest this was the first close up encounter.

        • Between buildings could have been when Trayvon was ducking under the clubhouse awnings to get out of the rain but I agree — they could have crossed paths in that northwest corner of the gated community.

      • I actually listened to the orig unedited 911 call and viewed video of Mr. Martin retracing his sons steps through the complex. I feel that with out doing so and only hearing edited portions of what media has reported, you don’t get a good sense of what actually may have happened. One thing that stood out for me was George saying “he’s coming to check me out, he’s got his hand in his waistband, something in his hand”…stop right there…if I were in a neighborhood looking to commit a crime and notice someone ‘watching’ me, I’m going to walk toward that person who could potentially identify me as the person who committed that crime?! Not likely.

        Here’s what I think: George on his way to run errands, spots Trayvon entering the development via the shortcut used by residents (this is in direct route George would need to travel to main entrance of the complex).

        Upon entering, Trayvon walks left toward the clubhouse. George, at that moment figures he’s up to no good and decides to follow. Once at the clubhouse, Trayvon decides to seek shelter from rain(all the while noticing this man following him). George decides to park few feet from clubhouse and mailboxes and continues to watch Trayvon, calls 911 to report suspicious person looks like up to no good, on drugs, walking about in rain looking at houses.

        Trayvon leaves clubhouse walking toward George in the direction of home he’s staying(he uses the cut-thru that would take him to back of units down the sidewalk). George still on phone with 911 giving details of the “suspicious” person and where he’s parked. Tells 911 Trayvon is running and George decides to exit vehicle in ‘hot pursuit'(can be heard running, and witness see two people running). 911 dispatcher advises against following, he says, “OK”. Movement can still be heard for few seconds after. No longer hear him running, but neither do you hear him walking as if returning to vehicle, steadiness in his voice and hear rain in background. It’s my guess he’s waiting on patio of the neighbor/friend that took picture of back of his head, since that’s closet to where the shooting actually took place and he’s one of the reported witness to call 911 afterwards.

        Did he loose sight of Trayvon at some point? It’s possible. Did Trayvon duck around some of the buildings to loose the strange man following him? It’s also possible. Question is, when at what point after George hangs up with 911 did they encounter each other again? Some ask, if Trayvon was so close to home, why didn’t he keep running till he reached there? Has it occurred to anyone that maybe he didn’t want to let this stranger know where he lived?! That maybe he’s waiting for the coast to be clear.

      • Try this for the missing two minutes. I mark the missing two minutes from the time GZ gets off of the phone with the dispatcher and the time Trayvon ends his final call with the girlfriend. The girlfriend tells us that Trayvon is being followed and he eventually runs. Then she states that Trayvon says the man is being him again. Trayvon is not on the phone with the girlfriend when Zimmerman states,”shit he’s running at 7:11. back toward the back entrance. It is after he runs toward the back entrance when the girlfriend calls at 7:12. So at 7:12 Trayvon is somewhere hiding/walking around on the phone with the girlfriend. After Zimmerman says, “he ran” he stays on the phone with the dispatcher until 7:13 which started the missing minutes. Remember the girlfriend is not on the phone with Trayvon when he is noted as running toward the back entrance, but she speaks of two encounters that Trayvon has with Zimmerman during the time she is on the phone with Trayvon. Those two encounters took place after she called Trayvon at 7:12 until the phone went dead at 7:16. Zimmerman stated that he was confronted by Trayvon on his way back to his truck. After Zimmerman gets off of the phone with the dispatcher he returns to his truck to wait on the officer. While at his truck Trayvon comes back and approaches Zimmerman and asked him why are you following me? Zimmerman tells him that he is not following him. So Trayvon is relieved because this guy isn’t following him so Trayvon turns to walk away headed toward the cut through again, Zimmerman exits his truck again following Trayvon still trying to keep an eye on him. Trayvon sees Zimmerman coming through the cut through and he tells the girlfriend that this guy is following him again. She tells Trayvon to run and she stated that he eventually run down the backway, behind the homes. Zimmerman proceeds to follow him through the cutoff. Trayvon hides in the unpaved cut through between building 1 and 2 that faces Twin Trees Drive. Trayvon spots Zimmerman and he tells the girlfriend, here this guy is again still following me. Zimmerman is looking around but he can’t see Trayvon, so he heads back up the sidewalk toward the T, his back is to Trayvon. Trayvon is upset with Zimmerman, Zimmerman just told him that he wasn’t following him and here he is following me, so Trayvon comes out of hiding approaching Zimmerman from his left side, he approaches Zimmerman and he asked him, “hey homie you got a problem with me? Zimmerman answers say no, then he asks Trayvon what is he doing around here? At this point Trayvon realizes that Zimmerman is following him because Zimmerman thinks he is up to know good. So they start arguing and Zimmerman tells Trayvon that the police is on the way which makes Trayvon more angry because this guy done call the cops on him and he hasn’t done a thing. Trayvon decides that he is going home because this is crazy. Zimmerman decides to call 911 to let them know that he has the suspect and where they are located. He reaches for his phone, maybe Trayvon sees the gun and thinks that Zimmerman is reaching for the gun, and his reactions was to punch him. This could have been when the phone was hung up on DeeDee. I think that even after the phone was hung up with DeeDee the two argued before the fight started, because one witness stated that he heard them arguing for sometime before he looked out. I don’t think that the push DeeDee heard started the fight. Somebody pushed, they argued then they fought. This explain the 2 minutes as well as explain why DeeDee said that Trayvon ran and hid, and just seconds later Trayvon said here this guy is following me again. Zimmerman had came through the cut through and walked down the sidewalk toward the back entrance far enough for Trayvon to see him from the unpaved cut through between the two building and when Trayvon saw him that is when he told DeeDee here this guy is again still following me.

    • And, Zimmerman was told to stop following, harassing, stalking, etc Trayvon but he continued to illegally do so instead of returning to his truck. You can’t do something illegal and then have Stand Your Ground apply after a lethal shot is fired from your gun.

      • Right you are! Of course, it isn’t a “hard” point of law, it’s a rule, but rules have reasons for being, and this one has a very good and important one from several aspects; one: don’t harrass or provoke, and two: don’t intefere with what could become a police investigation, if you’re right and the suspicious person turns out to be a real criminal.

        So, for those reasons, I think a jury will consider this to be the operative instructions that should have been followed as if they were law!

        Obviously, if any juror were to be followed by some stranger, they’d want the right to take defensive actions, of whatever kind may be approriate to the level of threat.

        Thus, Zimmerman’s merely walking away, does not end Trayvon’s right to confront him! Trayvon has been provoked, he has a right to know why, if he chooses to attempt to find out! While Zimmerman has no rights at all, since he violated the rules that prohibited his provocations. A jury will have no other choice but to enforce those rules, because the police need them, because they keep people safe, and because they themselves would be covered by them.

      • NLME, I couldn’t respond to aussie so hope you don’t mind I add my comment here.

        By observing all the details on the dispatcher tape, it is clear that George Zimmerman intentionally pursued and placed himself in a potential confrontation after he exited his vehicle and began following Trayvon Martin on foot. If he assumed Trayvon was suspicious of breaking into houses or “on drugs or something” and maybe carrying a weapon then he should have remained inside his own vehicle until the police arrived. Well George Zimmerman did have a deadly weapon and made sure he had it with him when he went on foot to assumingly find an address. Before he got out of his vehicle it was sufficient that he had already given a “description” and the general direction that TM went. After all, he was only to be a look out, notify the police and let them do the job from there. When asked if he was following TM, he disregarded the wise words of the dispatcher who said, “You do not have to do that”. Can he honestly claim he was on his way back to his vehicle or was he trying to spot TM again when he asked the dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrived rather than tell them he would be at the mailboxes or sitting in his truck? It is only GZ’s words of what happened after that, including the so called ‘eye witness’ who claimed he saw TM on top of GZ. Let all the gathered evidence be truthfully shown because one cannot believe everything GZ said by trying to look like an innocent victim and justify his own stupid actions. When impartial voice analysis experts say they are convinced it was Not Zimmerman screaming for help during the last few minutes in that emergency call, I would tend to believe them over him. This Stand Your Ground Law is truly messed up where some people get away with murder. Not saying that George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder but he surely was negligent in his own actions that resulted in the death of another human being, and he will have to live with that on his conscience for the remainder of his life.

      • @Lonnie “Thus, Zimmerman’s merely walking away, does not end Trayvon’s right to confront him! Trayvon has been provoked, he has a right to know why, if he chooses to attempt to find out!” I would recommend that you check this information, I think you are wrong. If your attacker had retreated and now is walking away, and you decide to confront your attacher and a physical confrontation occurs and it is detemined that now you are the one beating the crap out of the person, you have become the aggressor.

        • Except Zimmerman didn’t retreat…especially when he was told to stop following the teenager. Rather, he continued to harass, stalk, and prey upon Trayvon leading up to his death by gunshot.

          • Thanks NLME, I’ll add that there was no “attacker” at the point in time I was referencing. If Zim really had headed back to his truck, Trayvon still had cause to ask questions of him.

            As I said on my blog in the comments: Zimmerman is acting like a child playing cops & robbers! The adult thing to do, when Trayvon was approaching him in his vehicle, would have been to simply roll down the window and say:

            “Hi, I’m George Zimmerman, Captain of the Neighborhood Watch, I haven’t seen you around here before, do you live in one of these houses?”

            Who could take issue with such a greeting? There’s nothing in either the law or the NW rules that prohibit this conduct, and it certainly would have saved everyone a whole bunch of trouble, not to mention Trayvon’s life!

            Why does Zimmerman feel that every stranger is a serious threat that just has to be dealt with immediately and without question? This isn’t your friendly Neighborhood Watch Captain at work, this is a deranged individual with a diseased mind on the prowl.

      • You say that Zimmerman did not retreat, is this something that you have proof of or is this speculation on your part?

  167. I just listened to the video of GZ apologizing at the bond hearing how the prosecutor said he couldn’t say who started the struggle. This thought popped into my head.

    We know from the girlfriend’s recollection of the cellphone call, TM had told her he was being followed by a creepy guy then he thought he’d lost him then she hears why are you following me and the phone goes dead. I think TM had run between the back of the townhomes to get away from the guy in the truck and had stopped running to take his girlfriends phone call and thought he was safe on the sidewalk hidden from the roadway. What if I had been walking behind the townhomes that dark February night before GZ showed up? Would TM have come up to me and asked why are you following? I doubt it. I’m sure I would have kept walking and not been disturbed by TM. GZ comes along and is indeed still following TM and that is why TM asks why are you following me. So it doesn’t really matter who did the first shove, TM felt threatened. TM apparently knew GZ was the creepy guy in the truck and now creepy guy is on foot. Any other person could have been walking there and would not have been asked anything by TM or shoved or anything else. TM and GZ got into it because GZ was still pursuing.

  168. I’ve been following Wagist.com. I would suggest you see what the speculations on a pro Zimmerman site are. A couple of new developments. The log of Martin’s cell phone is in PST, not EST. So the last calls are after Martin was dead. Another finding was the twitters supposedly from DeeDee that evening. She was not concerned, and the next day was going about normal business.

    I requested someone to photoshop the pictures of GZ’s wounds. I do not think the pictures in the garage match the recently released one. Maybe someone here can do that.

    • I’ve visited their posting but it was a week or two ago — will need to check it out again. Thanks!

      Note: I wouldn’t say this blog is “pro” Trayvon or “anti” Zimmerman. The posting’s original intent was to a) Prove or disprove what we’ve heard so far from Zimmerman and then b) Call out the Sanford Police for not arresting Zimmermen the night of the shooting based on what’s currently known.

    • I have looked at that site, and I think that Trayvon did double back. From where Trayvon was killed, I concluded that he had to come back to that location. I think that when Zimmerman said that Trayvon was running,(2:08) he was still in the truck, he is asked which way is he running, he said toward the back entrance. Zimmerman apparently saw Trayvon reach the T in the sidewalk turn right and run down the sidewalk between the townhouses toward the back entrance which would make sense, since Ms. Green lives in that direction. He exits his truck because you can heard the door chime, then you can hear his breathing and wind interference in the phone.He is asked if he is following, he says yes and the dispatcher nicely says, “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman says, “OK”, however if you listen his voice does not return to normal and the wind can no longer be heard until about 2:39 mark on the call and then he says “he ran”. So from the time he exited his truck until he said he ran, Zimmerman ran/followed Trayvon for about 30 seconds. If Zimmerman could run 300ft in 30 seconds through the cut through down the sidewalk, because he sees Trayvon running toward the back entrance, how far down that side walk did he make it before he says “he ran”. How ever far Zimmerman ran Trayvon ran farther because he starting running as he approached the T and Zimmerman had not exited his truck at this point. Trayvon was killed about 105ft from Zimmerman’s truck, and Zimmerman ran at least 300ft from his truck down that sidewalk he ran past the location was Trayvon was killed. Zimmerman followed Trayvon down that sidewalk because it wouldn’t have made any sense for him to go any other way because he didn’t know which way Trayvon was going especially since there were many unpaved cut throughs and Trayvon could have ran through any of them. Running 300ft down that sidewalk put Zimmerman way past where Trayvon was killed, and the only explanation for him being where he was when he was killed he had to turn around and go back. In order for Zimmerman to get back to the location he was head back down that sidewalk to go back to his truck when Trayvon approached him. Even if Trayvon hid, he would have hid in a cut through completely out of Zimmerman eye sight. Based on the locations of the cut throughs the cut throughs are still located past where Trayvon was killed, so to get back to where he was killed he would still have to back track himself. I think that he went back to confront his follower to ask why was he following him. This is a 17 year old young man who is on the telephone with his girlfriend and he isn’t about to let her think that he is running from some old scary dude. He had already told her that he wasn’t running, it’s a man thing ok. Trayvon wasn’t afraid as some may think, because he could have ran home, and if he thought that he couldn’t make it, being scare and all, use your cellphone and call 911 or your dad; call someone. That’s what people do who are scare ok. This kid was not scare, he told his girl that he was going to handle this dude, he either came out of the unpaved cut through just below where he was killed or he traveled back down the sidewalk and walked up to Zimmerman and that is when DeeDee heard him ask Zimmerman why are you following me? and she heard Zimmerman ask what are you doing around here? She heard a push and his earpeice must have fallen because his phone went dead. My phone doesn’t go dead because I drop my earpeice, I think she heard more than what she is telling, and I believe that she knew that Trayvon was going back to confront Zimmerman and I think that explains the fact that she didn’t bother to call 911, Trayvon father, his mother this girl didn’t bother to tell anyone what had just happen with her boyfriend, something ain’t right with this. We know that Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a physical fight. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon was beating his head on the sidewalk, at some point the gun becomes the focus of the fight, and now it is in Zimmerman’s hand with him holding the butt of the gun and Trayvon holding the barrel if the gun. They both struggles over the gun with neither one of them willing to let it go because neither knows the mind of the other one. The gun is wet from the rain and both feel that they are losing their grip on the gun. The gun is pointing at Trayvon he can’t get it from Zimmerman, he feels that the gun is slipping from his grip and he’s not going to turn it a loose because he doesn’t know if Zimmerman will shoot him, so he starting screaming for help, and his voice is picked up on the 911 call. Zimmerman is screaming as well because he feels that he is losing his grip on the gun, and he doesn’t know what Trayvon is going to do if he gets the gun, this is when John hears Zimmerman screaming. Zimmerman is on the bottom with Trayvon sitting on his chest, so he is not able to scream loud enough for his voice to be heard on the 911 calls. However there are some low screaming on the 911 call that can barely be heard it could be Zimmerman screaming. The gun is slipping out of Zimmerman grip his head is being hit on to the side walk, no one is coming to help and out of fear of the gun being taken Zimmerman pulled the trigger. I believe that Trayvon went back, I think that he kept his girl on the phone so she could hear him handled his dude. I doubt very seriously that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. When the investigators determine which past Trayvon took and if Zimmerman followed that past, it will not be hard to determine how far Zimmerman went down that sidewalk and if he had past the location where Trayvon was killed and if he had ran pasted that location and made back within 105ft of his truck when this confrontation took place, it will be no doubt that he was returning to his truck and Trayvon came back up behind Zimmerman.

      • This coordinates well with what you’re speculating.

        The moment Zimmerman went south of the T instead of returning to his truck after being told to not follow Trayvon Martin, is the moment he effectively voided his Stand Your Ground argument.

      • I don’t think that there us any proof that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon, I think we are speculating to say the least. The investigator under oath stated that they had no evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claim that he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon attacked, I am curious about where are you getting your facts?