2,034 thoughts on “Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed”

1. Interesting investigation.

   • Well, thank you!

     • Great sleuth work. Thing is, Zimmerman knew he was talking a minor child. He even tells the dispatcher, “he’s a black male, in his late teens”. And again when he tell the dispatcher, “I don’t know where THIS KID IS”.

     • At his bail hearing today Zimmerman now says he didn’t know who Trayvon was and thought at the time that he was about the same age as himself. Let’s just hope the special prosecutor is thorough in her research, Zimmerman’s credibility will be shot before they finish their opening remarks.

       • Agreed – that’s one of the reasons I am “concerned” about Zimmerman’s mental health. Can’t imagine him NOT testifying.

         • Most people are taking just the events they are shown, but things don’t happen during the day, unconnected to other things going on. Zimmerman says he’s going to the store, but think for a minute; it’s raining out side, do you really want to drive to the store if you don’t have to? Okay, so you want a cup of coffee or a soft drink, but there’s no milk or soda. Or you need pens, paper or any of a zillion other things you can run out of, that will send you off to the store in the rain (toilet paper?).

           So then, you’re on you way to the store with a real mission, for something you really don’t want to do without, rain notwithstanding. Pretty darned pressing, eh? Usually, people on their way to the store, are thinking about getting what they want, and not to waste the trip, they try to think of other things they may need.

           With less than a minute to cover the 300 feet to the gate at 15, 20, 30 mph, do you really start looking around to see if there’s a suspicious person wandering about in the rain? In a gated community where you hardly ever see people walking? Let alone in the rain! If you see someone who is walking, are you going to stop your trip and start following them? If your needs were pressing enough to get you out driving in the rain, and heavy rain at that, you’re focus is going to be on the road and the store, not on who might come walking along. So, under Zim’s given conditions, he’s acting very strange. His trip to the store wasn’t quite so pressing after all, eh? He drops it in favor of following, someone, his supposedly occupied mind should not have seen.

           I wonder what time Target in Sanford closes? Maybe that was a consideration as well, that could be factored in? Then there’s helpful good neighbor John, who it appears, is the only one who thought to take a picture of Zimmerman’s head wounds! What?!? Don’t the police watch CSI? They don’t have cell phones with cameras themselves? Or is it they don’t know how to use them? Or when? Talk about things that make you go hmmm.

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

     • For what it’s worth:

       I get the general impression that Z left his house at 7pm, to drive to the store. If so, then why does he wind up some 8-9 minutes later, approx. 300 feet from his door? A speed of less than 1/4 mph??? Or, more likely stopped near the front gate and waiting? But for what and why?

       People in gated communities don’t do much walking even when the weather is clear. So then, why is Z waiting several minutes near the front gate, for the one person (probably per year), who will be returning home on foot in the rain?

       Just a coincidence that he leaves home at 7pm and somehow spends 7-8 minutes near the front gate, to spot the only one walking home? It just happens to be a “suspicious” young black male! Talk about things that make you go Hmmm.

       The only other way I can see that this “accuracy” can be achieved, is if someone called him from the store, letting him know that Trayvon was on his way home, giving Z time to position himself at the front gate.

       For a real shopping trip as his destination, it only takes about 1 minute to leave the area entirely, so he can’t meet Trayvon at all unless he leaves home ahead of T’s arrival at the front gate and waits. Very strange!

       • I’d like to know what time Zimmerman left for Target.

         • In one of the postings on my blog [http://themindlesspraetorianblog.blogspot.com/] There seemed to be a mention of him leaving his house at 7pm. You’ll note in the articles I’ve collected there, there are a lot of links to follow, that’s making it hard for me to track down. Also, because a lot of people are speaking for Zimmerman, it’s sometimes confusing as to who said what in memory.

           So I just threw it out there, hopefully some one who sees the value of it, might know or see something and report it back.

           Never-the-less, it did seem a bit strange to me, that in a neighborhood where very few people walk much at all, that Zimmerman would just happen to encounter the only person who probably walked anywhere in that compound on a rainy night too boot. Him being only one minute or less from the front gate, he’s got to “coincidentally” leave home one minute to nine after 7pm, to make it happen “as he’s going out the front gate”. But, from the story, with Trayvon taking shelter from the rain for 4 minutes or so, The “feel” of his coincidental encounter, just doesn’t feel quite right.

           In fact, one has to put aside the feeling, after reading much, that Zimmerman might have been somehow getting up-to-the-minute reports of Trayvon’s movements from around the 7-11 store. Of course we’ll never know about that, even if it did happen, it would take a detective working overtime to ferret it out.

           Needless to say that a one minute window in an entire evening is a bit to swallow, most especially on a rainy night in a gated community. The more I go over the story, the more I get the feeling that Zimmerman was probably laying in wait for Trayvon to return from the store. Anyone else get that feeling?

           • I get the feeling that Trayvon was being stalked before Zimmerman’s 911 call too. Otherwise, why would he run at the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s call? I guess we’ll find out soon once this thing goes to trial.

2. Interesting investigation of the crime scene.

   • Thanks, again! 🙂

     • Just wanted to point out a detail you might have overlooked. According to the police report, Zimmerman DID NOT call 911, but the non-emergency telephone number, you know, the number you call when there’s no life threatening emergency.

3. I have the same disease that is researching & investigating. I reached to many of the same conclusion than you except for a few points:
   1) GZ must have spotted TM from outside the gated community: I that assertion totally groundless.
   2) timing is key here knowing that you can walk from the north entrance to TM’s home in about 3min there is no way TM ran straight home. He must have spent time hiding somewhere north of the spot where he was eventually killed.
   Here is the timing information I have collected:
   7:09 – GZ calls 911 to report TM’s activity in the gated community.
   7:11 – GZ reports that TM runs away and starts chasing him on foot.
   7:12 – TM calls girlfriend and tells her about GZ chasing him and that he lost him (according to girlfriend).
   7:13 – GZ ends 911 call with clear indication that he is not planning to wait police at the mail boxes.
   7:16 – TM’s call to girlfriend ends on TM saying GZ is behind him again followed by an altercation (according to GF).
   7:16 – First 911 call from 1st ear witness of the struggle.
   7:16 – First 911 call from 1st eyewitness of part of the struggle reporting for for man in white (TM) being on top of man in red (GZ).
   7:16 (about) – A 14yo kid walking his dog sees the fight with 1 man on the ground another one on top but like the other eyewitness he wouldn’t see the whole fight.
   7:17 – Police arrives in the gated community.
   7:17 to 7:18 – 4 911 calls reporting gunshot.
   7:19 – Last 911 call from the 14yo witness and his little sister.

   One point here is that TM could have been home with no way for GZ to chase him.
   The 2nd point is that it seems clear that TM opted for hiding. Once feeling safe, he called his GF to recount his misadventure.
   The 3rd point is tat GZ was clearly looking after TM. He would have walked back to his car he won’t have seen TM walking off his hideout.

   In the end everything comes down to GZ’s words against TM’s GF’s words.
   To my opinion, GZ account of the events looks weak because there is no purpose for TM’s attack. Such attack is totally free and would only be possible if TM was out of his mind (like being on drug). OK, we now know TM was caught with pot but pot makes you cool and slow and certainly not aggressive. Furthermore, there is no indication at this point that TM tested positive to drug/alcohol. Finally, telephone logs clearly show TM was on the phone with his GF which doesn’t fit with the picture of an bloody aggressor.

   It would be interesting to know where the 14yo kid was located right before the struggle. That would help understanding where GZ & TM were not.

   • Wow – excellent info! I’ll definitely be using the timing you included – thank you! – tomorrow morning when I scale out some distances that either could have traveled.

     At the time of the shooting, was GZ’s truck parked within feet (sidewalk/grassy area) – not several hundred feet (road) – of the confrontation? If so, WTF was he thinking (essentially) off-roading?

     • No, according the GZ’s 911 call, the truck was on Twin Trees Str pass the mail boxes from the north entrance.

       Zimmerman:

       Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past
       the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and
       then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10].

       GZ went off his truck right after reporting TM running away. You can hear that from the 911 recording at 2’08”: There are car warnings sounds typical of someone opening driver’s side doors while living key on or headlights on. You also suddenly get the noise from the wind on the mic and GZ starts puffing suggesting that he’s running.
       Still from the discussion, GZ was not willing to walk back to his truck. Indeed, at 3’42” (>1min after the dispatcher asked him no to follow TM) GZ rejects the dispatchers request for meeting the officer at the mailbox and proposes that he’s been called instead so he can give his location. So, GZ is clearly on the hunting mode as also suggested by the derogatory comments of frustrations he made (fucking coon/goon, these asshole always get away, …).

       • Good points – thanks!

   • Where did you get the 911 call times from? Do you have more accurate times(to the second)?

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

   • “To my opinion, GZ account of the events looks weak because there is no purpose for TM’s attack.”

     Having myself been punched in the face by an aggressive teenager for no apparent reason many years ago, I can attest from personal experience that just because you can’t see a purpose for the attack doesn’t mean that there was no purpose in the attacker’s mind.

     Remember, one of Martin’s tweets (from December 2011) was “Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2 u!”

     • While I’m not sure if Trayvon punched Zimmerman, I’d say all the stalking Zimmerman did warranted some punches from the teen.

   • Great attention to details except one big one. According to Miami Dade Public School Security, Trayvon WAS NOT caught with pot. It was a small EMPTY bag that supposedly once contained pot.

     School Security has gone on record and stated they did not take any action and did not know what the small bag ever contained. There have been no official reports from the toxologist to indicate Trayvon ever used any drugs.

     Also, due to the fact that TM was found dead with no identification on him, police fingerprinted him thinking he may have had an arrest record. They stated he DID NOT have an arrest record. The purpose of fingerprinting him was to pull up a name to match the “John Doe” body.

   • Martin may have hid for a while not wanting Zimm to follow him home since his dad and his girlfriend went out for the evening. He would have been leading him to his brother and whoever was at the house. If his dad would have been home maybe he would have went straight home and been there in time for this not to happen. If thats what happened its really bad luck.

4. If they even attempted to file a missing persons report, the police wouldn’t have accepted it until 24 hours later, he’s 17, not high priority. Plus, they were watching the game, pops probably had a few beers and passed out. Who knows, but it’s really not that weird considering he’s 17 not 12.

   • I wouldn’t assume the beers part but I’m not sure why they’d have to file a report if there was all that commotion a few hundred yards away and there son didn’t come home from the 7-11 convenience store with his iced tea and skittles. Remember: It took the police awhile to change Trayvon Martin’s name from John Doe (autopsy tag).

     • pops was out at dinner with fiance and didn’t arrive home until 11 ish. probly tired.

   • They filed that morning. That was when the police came to the house asked for a picture then showed the dad a pic. Tm was not in the morgue for three days unidentified he was in the morgue listed as john does for 3 days and that’s when the body was released for burial. Dad went to bed thinking his son went to a late movie. Apparently it takes some time to change a person’s status front john does to tm.

   • According to Trayvon’s father, he and his fiance had gone out to dinner and did not return home until late that evening. He called Trayvon’s phone, it went straight to voice mail. He mentions something about Trayvon going to the movies, so he didn’t think much it.

     He also states after the murder, that when he and his fiance returned home, there was no sign of yellow tape or any indication that a crime had actually taken place earlier that evening.

     Early the next morning, when he noticed that Trayvon was not home, he immediately started making calls inquiring about his son’s whereabouts. Police and a chaplain came to his home and asked him if he had a picture of Trayvon, he showed them one he had stored in his cellphone.

     They then asked him to i.d. a picture they had, he confirmed it was his son. According to Mr. Martin, the picture shows “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his face, and saliva coming from his mouth”.

5. You have a few issues with your article. I am having to rewrite my own as well.
   If you notice the curb were the side walk goes between the two buildings where your black arrow leaves the road. That is where Zimmerman’s car was and where he was attacked.

   Second issue Zimmerman is out of shape you can hear it in his breathing on the 911 tape. No chance in hell he could make the distance around the building. As for the 14 year old his name is Austin Brown. He was walking his dog up that path and seen Zimmerman at the end of the building near on his back in the grass. Zimmerman was identified as the man in the red shirt.

   Martin could have used his cell to call 911 if he was scared as well. As you said he could have gone on to his fathers. There is a solid 1 minute and 30 seconds on tape that zimmerman is talking to the dispatcher.

   For Martin to have lost Zimmerman he had to break the line of site. That isn’t to hard. Zimmerman only ran for 8 seconds its on the tape you can tell the difference in how he can talk.

   What does all that mean for whatever reason Martin went away from safety and made a choice to confront Zimmerman. He wasn’t being pursued as people make out. That means what the witness John said and Austin Brown also fits.

   The crazy lady who said she seen zimmerman following brown after he had been told not to. Well she had no way of hearing when Zimmerman was asked to stop. The fact she came forward later makes me believe she got info from the press and just wants attention.

   • Did he move his car? In the 911 tape, he said he was by the mailboxes near the clubhouse and cut through.

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

   • “Martin could have used his phone to call 911 if he was scared”

     But he had as much right to “stand his ground” as Zimmerman. Also, if you’re being chased, you don’t just stand there and call 911. You either run or you fight. Yes, Zimmerman was following him, as the phone witness stated.

     • Touche – thanks for the comment!

   • :::: As for the 14 year old his name is Austin Brown. He was walking his dog up that path and seen Zimmerman at the end of the building near on his back in the grass. Zimmerman was identified as the man in the red shirt.::::

     No, Austin Brown DID NOT identify Zimmerman as the guy on the ground. Brown and his mother have emphatically stated that the police LIED about that, and that Brown never wavered (edit) from saying it was MARTIN on the ground.

     • Yup, that’s correct – Brown’s mom is hiring a lawyer to contest what the police are reporting her son said. I wonder if the police had a word with the witness “John?” You know, the guy that thinks he saw a man with a red sweater on the bottom:

       http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

       “The guy on the bottom – who I believe had a read sweater on – was yelling to me help, help. I told him to stop and I was calling 911. And then when I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass and I believe he was dead at that point.”

   • The minute thirty — TM walked over to “check GZ out”; then ran. He hid, catching his breath, walked out of hiding and was cornered by GZ.

   • And you have several issues with your version of the incident. First of all, Austin NEVER told the dispatcher he saw Zimmerman, nor did he say he saw anyone in a red shirt.

     Austin’s mother and attorney did a video interview in which she states emphatically that her son never told the 911 operator her son saw anyone any a red shirt, only saw one person on the ground who was screaming for help, and that it was too dark for him to see.

     If you listen to the tape, you will notice the dispatcher NEVER even asked Austin what color clothing anyone was wearing, and NEVER asked Austin who was on top or bottom.

     Austin’s mother was present when a detective came to her home, approximately 1 week later to question her son. She said her son pretty much repeated the same thing he told the 911 dispatcher.

     She said the detective then offered her son 3 color options, one of which was red. It was then that Austion said red. She also said the detective told her he knew Zimmerman was lying about his account of what happened.

     Of all the accounts I’ve read, and his mother’s statements, Austin is 13 years old, not 14.

     Interestingly, Austin’s sister’s call to 911 is the shortest of all the 8 calls made. He basically tells the dispatcher he saw a man screaming, I was going to over and help him but my dog got away. The dispatcher asked him if he knew the person on the ground, Austin says, “no”.

     As far as the “crazy lady” telling her version of the story after the fact, so did John.

     Please forgive me if I say your conclusions are void of any objectivity.

   • Zimmerman was identified via police video as the man in the red bomber (puffy) styled jacket, not as you claim, the man in the red shirt. More specifically, the person (singular) was lying on the ground wore a red tee-shirt. I can’t see anybody describing a red bomber jacket as a red tee-shirt. We know that zimmerman was wearing a green, blue or grey tee-shirt (which could appear white under the flashes of light from high tech flashlights). The only thing we don’t yet know is the color Trayvon Martin’s shirt/tee-shirt if it was visible. On a secondary note, some witnesses have described the man on top as wearing a white-tee and another has described the murdered Trayvon Martin as wearing a dark gray hoodie which bore visible gun shot burns after the killing.

6. Do you think he might be running when we hear the wind in the cell phone and he is walking when we don’t here the wind. Could you figure out some distances using this theory.

   • I plan to study the distances traveled by foot and by truck later on today. Thanks for reading Bcclist.com and check back soon for updates!

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above based on your comment. Thank you for checking out BccList.com!

7. Thanks for the map. To me it does not make sense that Zimmerman would take a different route than Martin. If Zimmerman was following, wouldn’t he take the same route? If so, perhaps they got a lot closer to Martin’s father’s girlfriend’s house and then Martin turned and started walking back along the same route.

   I like the map, but don’t understand the logic and conclusion.

   • Zimmerman was either pursuing Trayvon Martin on foot or behind the wheel of his truck. While pursuing Trayvon east on the map, he likely saw Martin’s path turn south down the sidewalk in between the buildings. Instead of running or pursuing behind him, I’m speculating Zimmerman thought it would be better to come between Trayvon and the back entrance.

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com.

     • I question the person called “John” who says he told Zimmerman to stop calling for help. That doesn’t make sense. Why would a witness tell someone to “stop”? He also says they were wrestling which doesn’t add up if GZ is on the ground being severely beaten. If he only saw them wresting then he did not see the actual final moments and the position of their bodies, since he says he ran inside and called from his upstairs phone which takes at least 30 seconds.

     • Couldn’t find a reply button to respond to Caroline, so I’m replying to you instead.

       Just wanted to let her know that my assessment of “John” is pretty much the same. Just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. I mean, who tells a person yelling for help to stop? It actually sounds like something Zimmerman would have said instead.

       I do have some suspicions that “John” may very well be the person one caller described as wearing a white shirt.

   • GZ knew he couldn’t catch up; he saw TM turn south, went down Twin Trees made left to cut him off. Check girlfriends speculation of TM being “cornered”

8. The police report lists Martin at 160, not 140, autopsy will determin actual weight. Also Martin is 3-5 inches taller than Zimmerman, based on various reports.

   • Interesting – I hadn’t seen the updated weight of 160 pounds for Trayvon Martin. He weighed that much during the autopsy after the blood loss too?

     • I think people are making too much of an issue of Trayvon’s height and weight. Its just not relevant unless one has a bias against a tall black male.

     • Its likely just an estimate of his weight. Its too round a figure.

9. Good job.

   Details worth adding:

   1.There is a 7-Eleven at 1125 Rinehart Rd, about 3/4 mile away; Google Maps misses it but MapQuest finds it. The logical route to that is past the main gate and clubhouse.

   2. I assume you checked the 911 transcript of the Zimmerman call. He seems to be parked by the cut through with a sidewalk, so why the assumption that he took the yellow path? And do we love the timing? Martin is walking (quickly, if we believe the girlfriend) between the townhouses; Zimmerman goes an equal distance down Twin Trees and cuts through. Good quickness for the large guy.

   3. I have been advised that the girlfriend, Brandy Latresa Green lives at 2631 Retreat View Circle. Which means Martin was on a logical route home between the houses to the back door.

   • Thank you – excellent info!

     1) Good find. Posting updated with the correct distance. http://www.forlocations.com/7eleven-1125_rinehart_rd__sanford
     2) He’s parked where my blue box is on the map, facing north towards the Front Entrance, near the mailboxes and cut through by the clubhouse.
     3) That address is correct for Trayvon’s father’s girlfriend, Brandy Latresa Green.

   • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com and providing some much needed corrections!

10. GZ SHOULD OF BACKED OFF LIKE THE POLICE DISPATHCHER TOLD HIM TO DO, WHICH GZ AGREED HE WOULD BUT HE DID NOT WHICH STATES HE WAS LOOKING FOR A PROBLEM AND ALSO MAKES HIM THE AGRESSOR.THIS WHOLE SITUATION COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF YOU DIDNT HAVE SOME IDIOT WITH A GUN PLAYING ROBO COP TRYING TO TAKE MATTERS INTO HIS OWN HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Agreed!

    • According to the 911 call, he did — he said he was going to head back to his truck after the dispatcher told him not to persue. Even on this map it looks like he was headed back to his truck when the confrontation occurred. But even so, a dispatcher is not given authority. You do not have to listen to them or wait for permission. The woman in Oklahoma whose apartment was broken into (after her husband died of cancer) did not get “permission” to shoot the guy dead who was going to violate her after he broke in. Why aren’t you pissing and moaning that she didn’t wait for the police before she shot her attacker? The guy didn’t even hit her, he just broke into her house… she could have survived… probably… the dispatcher didn’t tell her she could shoot, she just told her that she had a right to defend herself… Does everyone have that right? Or do we have to wait for the dispatcher and the police to tell us our rights?

      • The shots occurred well south of the T. In my map where Zimmerman doesn’t continue stalking the teen heading south down the path, the location is impossible for him to get attacked from behind while returning to his truck.

      • I’ll bet he wishes he had listened to the wise counsel given to him by the dispatcher. Instructions any reasonable person would have followed. Now he’s in jail facing a 2nd degree murder charge, 25 years to life.

        There’s a whole lot of things that people tell us to do, such as 911 dispatchers, that are usually for our own safey, and the safety of others, such as, “We don’t NEED YOU to do that, i.e. It’s not necessary.

        Do you think Zimmerman would have put his hand on a hot stove after being told not to do it? Maybe, considering his unstable history. The choice to pursue Trayvon was Zimmerman’s, and Zimmerman’s alone.

      • This response was ridiculous. If someone forces their way into your home, that is a threat to your safety and any reasonable person would fear for their life. Trayvon was walking in a public area, not engaging in any criminal or threatening activity. He also said “okay” when he was told they didn’t need him to follow TM, and then followed anyway. Apples and oranges.

      • It’s not the “authority” of the dispatcher that’s the issue. It’s the certain knowledge of Neighborhood watcher, that they should not follow and certainly not do so while armed. Since he was armed and knows from his training, that following is the wrong thing to do, this dispatchers reminder that his following isn’t needed, should be enough to remind GZ of the rules and why they exist. The reason that NW’er are told not to follow suspects is, because by doing so, they risk compromising the PD’s case, if any should result. Why would a NW want to risk the possibility of being responsible for setting the culprit free?

        Thus, GZ’s following, may very well result, as he has been told, in another one getting away. So this should be his concern, and it certainly is the dispatchers concern. Meaning that by going forward with his following, GZ shows that he’s not concerned with the PD building any case. He doesn’t care if the PD is able to make any case at all. Which says he has another “solution” in mind.

    • Exactly. Zimmerman never had any attentions of stopping his pursuit of Trayvon. Nothing in the tape indicates he stopped following Trayvon. And I noticed how Zimmerma quickly changes his mind after agreeing to meet the police by the mailboxes.

      Instead, he tells the dispatcher to just have the police call him when they arrive and will then tell them where he is. Why put the police in the position of having to look for you and the so called suspect? Never mind how casual he sounds while talking to the dispatcher.

      If Zimmerman is fear of his life or safety, saying things like “he’s coming to check me out, he’ got something in his hands, he’s got his hands in his pocket” seems like he would have agreed to wait where the dispatcher told him to wait. I also find it interesting that Zimmerman did not call 911 but the non-emergency line instead.

      Also, his statements to the police makes it clear he was following Trayvon. How would he know where Trayvon was supposedly hiding?

      • Sleuth, very good point! When GZ told the dispatcher to have the police call him rather than meet him at the mailboxes tells me he had no intentions of being there to wait for them. Why he didn’t say he would be in his truck (SUV) parked in that location rather than “Have them call me” sounds like he was walking around on the prowl for TM.

11. you know your entire theory is flawed because Zimmerman told police on the 911 call to turn “left” and go past the clubhouse, and continue left. Your map is totally inaccurate and totally off.

    • FAIL!

      Zimmerman:

      When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.

      911 dispatcher:

      OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

      Zimmerman:

      Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

12. On the 911 tape Zimmerman is asked his address. He is asked his address AFTER he starts to follow (you can hear Zimmerman moving on the tape) and AFTER the dispatcher told him not to follow. He starts to give out his address (gets as far as the house number) then pauses and says he doesn’t want to give it out because he doesn’t know where the kid is at (I took it to mean he didn’t know where the kid was at and didn’t want the kid to hear his address as he searched for him). It’s obvious he is looking for Trayvon and not returning to his truck because he wants the cops to call his cell phone when they get there. I think Zimmerman saw Trayvon before he entered the subdivision and that is why Zimmerman’s truck was parked where it was facing north so he could see when Trayvon entered. Zimmerman was lying in wait for Trayvon, not so much as thinking he was going to kill the kid but he was so sure Trayvon was up to no good Zimmerman couldn’t stand it and a terrible killing occurred. As far as we know Zimmerman might have had the gun drawn as he searched for Trayvon. He confronted the kid and the kid started fighting back because he felt his life was in danger. Manslaughter at the very least.

    • I agree fully with the second part but not so much with the first part about the address.

    • How do you know that GZ’s truck was facing north?

      • Because Zimmerman said Trayvon – who was coming south from the Front Entrance – was coming toward his parked car by the mailboxes/cut through near the clubhouse.

    • Imagine that call “my cell when u get here” I gonna commit a crime and instruct the cops to let me know when they arrive. what an advantage for me. (how clever) how long will it take to roll around on the ground with this teen shot him then answer the phone. ok here I am he tried to kill me. lets put him in the back of the car and take him to the morgue. ok

      • Along with providing an alternative map, I suggested something similar in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

    • I was wrong about the first part – paranoia about giving out his address – because I didn’t hear the uncut call until 3/31. The redacted call I had been listening to didn’t mention the part about GZ being concerned TM would hear his address. What a weird ass concern as I mention in a comment below.

    • As far as the gun being drawn, I believe that’s exactly what GZ did. You can hear what seems to sound like a magazine clip going in. Sounds like it gets stuck and GZ starts hitting or tapping on something; he is still on with dispatcher as he does all of this.

      As far as the kid fighting back, well that’s been disputed by the funeral home director who transported the body back to Miami. He said there was nothing on Trayvon’s body that showed he had been in a fight; meaning no scratches, scars, bruises, etc. He only saw the scar from the bullet wound.

      If the ME’s report reflects the same, that would explain why the charge is 2nd degree murder and not manslaugter.

      • If you have never handled a gun much maybe that’s what you might imagine it sounds like, but the KelTec is polymer frame with a steel magazine, and no one carries an unloaded weapon.

        The clicking sounds seem to be something tapping against the cellphone case, I suspect probably a jacket zipper or maybe earring.

        • Thank you for reviewing the blog posting and commenting. If a jacket zipper or earring is responsible for the noise, I would speculate it would have been heard before this point in Zimmerman’s call. You never know though. Hence, I’ve never definitively speculated as to what caused the noises heard.

      • Hi Gun Pro,

        YOU STATED: “If you have never handled a gun much maybe that’s what you might imagine it sounds like……….”

        ==========================================

        MY REPLY:

        Or it may be due to the fact we’re a family that consist of licensed gun brokers who have owned gun shops for over 60 years.

        T. G.

    • Jon,

      I totally agree. When the story first broke, my first impression was that something must have occurred before Trayvon went to the store. Maybe he saw Trayvon as he headed to the store while there must have still been some type of daylight because he gives such a detail description of Trayon’s demeanor and clothing, right down to the button on his shirt, and the color of his shoes.

      Subsequent news reports state Trayvon was a regular visitor at his dad’s fiance’s home, and often played with the other children in the area where she lived. Just don’t believe that was his first time going to the 7-11. This makes me believe he must have seen him before, perhaps not during early evening hours, but surely during the daytime.

      I don’t believe the story Zimmerman, Sr. told about his son was on his way to Target, especially since he said that AFTER SPD had said GZ was on watch duty.

      Also agree, the truck was facing north because he gives a very detailed description of what Trayvon was wearing, considering it was raining.

      I strongly believe he was preparing his gun as he told the dispatcher he didn’t want to give out his address because he didn’t know where the kid was. If you listen to that portion of the call, you will hear tapping, clicking, and knocking sounds, which to me, sounds like a clip being put in. I know it’s just a theory, but I think it is very possible that he was preparing for the “hunt”.

      I certainly wouldn’t follow a person I deem suspicious, hands in waistband, looking like their on drugs or something, coming towards me, without some type of back up, i.e. stick, bottle, gun, etc., especially if I had already purposed in my mind I’m going to follow them, and was not going to wait for the police or wait where I was instructed to wait.

13. How did you determine where Zimmerman parked and where Trayvon’s father lived?

    How does this scenario sound:

    Trayvon begins running along the path you describe, then hides somewhere. Zimmerman follows, leaving his truck at the last curve in the road. When he gets between the buildings he can’t see Trayvon and begins walking back to his truck. Then Trayvon emerges from hiding and a confrontation takes place.

    • Zimmerman was parked near the mailboxes and cut through.

      It was Trayvon Martin’s father’s (Tracy Martin) girlfriend’s address.

      I don’t think Trayvon mentioned hiding when speaking with his girlfriend. The truck had to be parked between the buildings near the sidewalk I believe. Well, that is, if Zimmerman’s story adds up.

      • TM’s gf thought he looked for cover from the rain.

    • For what it’s worth, an alternative map is suggested in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

14. Pingback: Trayvon Martin case: Video released, backstory revealed, so many questions | The Hinky Meter

15. Listen to GZ on the 911 call. He has trouble telling the dispatcher where the police should go. He can’t describe the entrance to the development. He gives the wrong address to the clubhouse (111 vs 1111). A lot of uh’s, turn left, no don’t turn left ect. He lives here and has been very active in patrolling the development but he can’t tell dispatch where his truck is and can’t give accurate directions. In my opinion, the way he is talking suggests that either he (1)has a mental imparement or (2) may be under the influence but no tox testing was done by police.

    After dispatch tells him not to pursue, he acknowledges with an “ok” but does not to go back to his truck..

    A 911 caller says that she sees a person in a white t shirt on top of a person on the ground. Some reports interpet this as TM on top of GZ. This is probably the police officer who was giving cpr to TM because she sees this when she looks out her back window after the shooting had occured. I would like to know what uniform police were wearing that night.

    • Seriously? Look, I am all for letting both stories being told to the Grand Jury and letting them decide. I am not rushing to judgement on either side. But I read your conjecture and am dumbfounded. First regarding your points. Have you ever been under stress? Regardless of whether he was right or wrong, GZ was under stress, this does not make him either 1) mentally impaired or 2) under the influence. If he was looking for TM (note I did not say pursuing) could account for him not returning to this truck. Or perhaps he was pursuing him, I am not sure, nor will I jump to conclusions. Lastly (on your points), Maybe it was a police officer or maybe it was TM. The 911 call should reveal it as you say “sees,” meaning close proximity and you would hear the gunshot.
      Regarding the original story up top, I would like to know how this individual deduced GZs path. Why couldn’t he have followed TMs path? He was following him after all. Creatively writing is a great way to make your point, but doesn’t necessarily lend credence to your investigative skills. To be a good investigator, you have to see both sides.

      • Why would Zimmerman chase Trayvon using the exact same path? There’s no chance he’d catch up. Instead, as suggested in the 911 tape, Zimmerman believed Trayvon was running toward the back entrance and decided to cut him off though the operator told him to stop following the suspect.

        Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about GZ not following the same path as TM before the operator tells him to stop pursuing the teen).

      • He had no right and no reason to go looking for Martin. We know he was pursuing the kid from the girlfriend.

        • And, his own 911 call.

      • Errr… Exactly why would GZ be under stress? Sitting in his truck, knowing that his “job” is done, finished when he reports to the police, exactly what is there for him to be stressed about?

    • No actually the police report states that CPR was conducted when officer amya the second cop on scene conducted it. I have a problem with the fact the first cop didn’t place the handcuffs on Z and then conducted CPR. Also witness said when figure got up he had his hand in his forehead and acted confused. Actually 2 different witnesses said that. The recent wit said it was a Hispanic guy. Now perhaps in the dark gz T-shirt under the jacket could be

      • Mistaken. White shirt is not the same as a grey hoodie . I am confused about all of that. The mom of the 14 year old said the color of the shirt was suggested during an interview. Nowhere in the call with the boy was a red shirt mentioned. Also how is o.e slot in the chest while on top of the shooter and end up on his stomach? Gz clearly had no blood on his shirt and it was not mentioned in the report.

      • Good one 504miami

        Martin could have landed on his chest if GZ rolled him off when he got up. But there is no way, I mean NO WAY you can shoot someone in the chest while they are on top of you and not get any blood on you.

        Of course, it would not surprise me if the police allowed GZ to clean up before they took him in. We can’t have teh judge’s boy looking like a criminal now can we?

        • Thanks for the comments! I’d like to see surveillance video from inside the cop car. You’re right – there’s no way that blue undershirt would have been blood free if he shot upwards into Trayvon’s chest.

      • You make some good points and observations. The first ranking cop on the scene was Sgt. Anthony Raimondo. He was previously involved in a cover-up that involved a fellow cops son. It went unnoticed until a video surfaced on the internet.

        Justin Collison is the son of Lt. Chris Collison. Justin beat a homeless black man, Sherman Ware, into unconsciousness. Mr. Ware also suffered from a broken nose as a result of the attack.

        Regarding the white t-shirt, I would not be surprised at all if it were discovered the guy they call “John” had something more to do it.

        Question for you. Did you notice at the end of Zimmerman’s call there’s what sounds like low voices or whispers, and some knocking on something?

        Zimmerman is no longer speaking with the dispatcher but the dispatcher is still on the line because you can hear regular background noises as heard on all the witnesses calls. Just like you hear the background noises in witnesses home.

        http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/police-lieutenants-son-investigated-attacking-homeless-man/story?id=12507834

    • The female caller says in the 911 call that she saw a person wearing a white t-shirt before calling 911. She his the 2nd 911 caller that night. She is actually the 1st one seeing the 1st officer Timothy Smith coming in. She is also the one telling the dispatcher that the officer actually has to go to the back of her house rather than the front.

      Therefore, the person wearing a white t-shirt cannot be police of rescue.

      She also is the only person seeing a white t-shirt. TM has a dark gray hoodie and I have no idea what he was wearing under it (possibly a white t-shirt). GZ had a red jacket and we can see that a had a light gray t-shirt under it.

      • Here is the transcript of the 2nd female witness who saw the white t-shirt.

        Dispatcher: “So, when you heard screaming, it was a male screaming?”
        Caller: “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.”
        Dispatcher: “What do you mean guy on top? Did you see a fight?”
        Caller: “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.”
        Dispatcher: “A white t-shirt. Did you see what kind of pants? He was on top of what?”
        Caller: “I couldn’t see the person he was on.”
        Dispatcher: “But he was on top of a person?”
        Caller: “Yes.”
        Dispatcher: “The guy with the white t-shirt, did he get up and run?”
        Caller: “I don’t know. Went to the phone to call you”

16. In the third comment above (from tchoupi.caillou), he says the 7:16 911 caller says she sees a white t-shirt(TM) on top of red shirt (GZ). Where can I find that recording. On the 911 call I heard, the only mention of a person with a white t-shirt on top of the body comes from a caller seeing that after the shooting happened and police were on the scene.

    • You can get all of the records from Sanford Police here:
      http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

      Actually the 911 caller (a female) explains after the shooting what she saw before calling 911. here is the transcript:

      Dispatcher: “So, when you heard screaming, it was a male screaming?”
      Caller: “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.”
      Dispatcher: “What do you mean guy on top? Did you see a fight?”
      Caller: “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.”
      Dispatcher: “A white t-shirt. Did you see what kind of pants? He was on top of what?”
      Caller: “I couldn’t see the person he was on.”
      Dispatcher: “But he was on top of a person?”
      Caller: “Yes.”
      Dispatcher: “The guy with the white t-shirt, did he get up and run?”
      Caller: “I don’t know. Went to the phone to call you

      • Yea, Trayvon had on a gray hoodie not a white t shirt.

      • The records show the following:
        GZ 911 call indicates TM has a dark gray hoodie at 7:10 while walking along Twin Trees Ln
        Witness 911 call indicates TM has a white t-shirt at 7:16 while on top of GZ
        Police report indicates TM has a gray sweater when found dead on the back path

        It was really dark that night so the witness may have got the color wrong. but yet, I find it more difficult to see a red color in the dark than a white color.

17. Would be interesting to see from which buildings the 911 calls were made.

    • I agree!!!

      • the former school teacher had a good view of it.

18. Guys,

    There is no question TM didn’t run or even walked straight to his Fathers. The reason is timing. According to googlemap, it takes 3min to go from the main entrance to the back entrance. GZ called 911 at 7:09. TM starts running at 7:11. He could have been home at most at 7:14. He was shot dead at 7:17 half way from GZ’s car and home.
    Therefore, TM opt to hide. I don’t particularly mean tat he stayed put at some spot near the place of his killing, he was probably walking between houses and so, making his way home longer. According to TM’s GF, TM said he lost GZ which suggests indeed that not being followed was his priority.

    There is no question GZ never followed TM by car. He clearly said police that he was parked in the cut through (that is Twin Tree road) pass the mailboxes.
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?”
    Zimmerman: “Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and
    then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck.” [3’10”]
    Furthermore, in GZ’s 911 log, at 2’08” GZ says “He’s running” then we can hear the trucks warnings typical of someone opening the driver’s door while leaving headlights on or keys on. This is when he left his car and started chasing TM. The dispatcher clearly understood what was going on and asked GZ to stop this.

    There is no question GZ was not willing to wait for police at the mailboxes.
    911 dispatcher: “OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then?” [3’42”]
    Zimmerman: “Yeah, that’s fine.” [3’43”]
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …”
    Zimmerman: “Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?”[3:49]
    911 dispatcher: “OK, that’s no problem.”

    There is no question TM quickly lost GZ.
    #1
    911 dispatcher: “Alright, sir, what is your name?” [2’34”] (7:11pm-7:12pm)
    Zimmerman: “George. He ran.”
    #2
    Phone logs show TM calling his GF at 7:12.
    #3
    TM’s GF account of the events: “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,”

    I see no other possibility but TM hiding to explain the timing. GZ’s side will claim he was preparing his attack. TM’s will claim that he was hiding for safety.

    • Trayvon Martin lost George Zimmerman. When you lose somebody, you don’t have intentions of going to find that person again. I’m not sure how long it would take to get from the cut through near the clubhouse/mailboxes to the murder scene. I plan to time these distances out within the next few days. Other than GZ’s 911 call, I’m not sure when TM started running. Why would TM being running past a car parked in idle near the clubhouse and mailboxes?

      If Zimmerman didn’t move the car from the mailboxes near the clubhouse and cut through, then I’m not sure how Trayvon could have attacked him near his truck as was stated in the police report.

      • There is no way TM would attack GZ near his truck parked on Twin Trees Ln and end up fighting in the back path.

        My evaluation suggests that it takes about 1min to go from GZ’s truck to the crime scene. Below are the facts I’m based upon.

        Police records (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) show the 1st officer arrives on scene at 7:17. But, he actually arrives at the GZ’s truck as initially arranged.

        This is correlated by one 911 caller:

        Caller: “I see police now.” [1’06”] (she called at 7:16pm)
        Dispatcher: “You see the officer?”
        Caller: “Yeah, but like it’s behind the house. There is a dead body there. It’s not the front entrance. Oh, my God.”
        Dispatcher: “Please tell me so I can tell them.”
        Caller: “If you are looking at my house, it’s behind by my back porch.”

        It took the officer about a minute to reach the crime scene as evidenced by another 911 call (she called at 7:17pm):

        Dispatcher: “You are not the only person calling. We have more than one officer on the scene and another on the way.”
        Caller: “Oh, my God. I see the person now. I see him walking. [0’45”]
        There’s a man coming out and people coming out with flashlights. Oh, my God. I don’t know what he did to this person. I can see there is a man walking out with a flashlight right now.”

        The man with the flashlight can only be the 1st police officer (Ayala Ricardo) since his report indicates no other individual at the crime scene.

        So, it took about 1min for the police officer to rush from the mailboxes or from GZ’s truck to the crime scene. We have to keep in mind that the officer may have drove part of the way and must have spend some time parking and exiting his vehicle.

      • Just a correction there: The 1st officer is Timothy Smith. Ayala Ricardo is actually the 2nd officer.

      • I would say that TM was hiding and didnt go to his father’s house because there was no one home. Reports indicate the father and the girlfriend went out for dinner. He didnt want GZ to know where he lived seeing as he was being stalked and may have felt safer out in the open then being followed into and cornered in an empty house

        • Makes sense.

          • Yes, didn’t he have a younger brother who would have been there alone? If so, all the more reason not to head directly home. Remember those “Criminal Minds” and other tv shows? They often show people, inadvertently leading killers etc., to their homes and what can possibly happen.

            One thing is very clear, GZ from TM’s perspective, was not acting the way any normal person would. From the tone of the messages GZ gives the police, I can only imagine him scowling evilly in dreadful silence as TM goes past his car. GZ may not have been aware of it, or perhaps he did so on purpose, either way he wasn’t sending any “I’m your friendly neighborhood watcher”, messages TM’s way.

    • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com and leaving such insightful comments!

    • And some will wonder why he’d hide instead of running home when he was so close. But imagine TM’s mindset… He has NO idea who this guy is. He’s probably seen enough stalker/serial killer movies to get the idea that leading a killer straight to his family would be a very bad idea. In hindsight, maybe he should have run home. But then I think we’d be talking about him being killed trying to open his back door, which might have been, in GZs mind, him trying to break in.

    • GZ told the dispatcher to have the cops call him when they got there. Doesn’t that mean he was no longer at his truck? He told them to come straight in, swing a left and his truck was right there. But he told the dispatch to have the cops call him instead. If he was in his truck, he would have seen them coming in and flagged them down. But he wasn’t in his truck. He was out hunting for TM.

      I believe TM lost GZ, Then GZ started walking looking for him. TM thought he lost him and came around the corner and GZ was standing there, out of breath from walking.

      At that point, TM asked him why was he following him.

19. What Happened to Trayvon Martin’s Dark Grey Hoodie?

    On Feb., 26th 2012, between 7:09pm & 7:16pm, four persons saw Trayvon Martin alive. Two of the four described how he was dressed.

    The first witness is George Zimmerman himself. In his 911 call placed at 7:09pm we can hear him say:
    “Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring.” [00’42”]
    “He’s got something on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.” [01’12”]

    The second witness is from the female witness that called at 7:16 and started her call with “There’s someone screaming outside.”. That witness says:
    “Yes. And the guy on top had a white t-shirt.” [03’10”]
    “I don’t know, I just looked out my window, and there was a guy on top wearing a white t-shirt.” [3’18”]

    The other two witnesses who haven’t described (to the best of my knowledge) how TM was dressed are:
    1) The famous Joe who saw GZ in red laying on the grass and TM on top of him. He is the person who claims GZ was the one crying.
    2) The 14yo kid who was walking his dog at 7:16. He saw a man on the ground.

    It is clear that at some point around 7:16, TM was on top of GZ. But still, what happened to his Dark Grey Hoodie?

    I have a theory that requires taking into accounts the first persons to talk to GZ after TM’s killing: Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora.
    The interesting part in their account of the event is (from Mary Cutcher): “Zimmerman was standing over the body with — basically straddling the body with his hands on Trayvon’s back.”

    Is it possible that GZ grabbed TM by his hoodie, pulling it off and therefore triggering the fight? Then, what Mary Cutcher would have seen is GZ putting it back to hide that event. After all GZ straddeling TM is rather disturbing. If GZ indeed grabbed TM’s hoodie it would do 2 things: 1) explain how TM’s call to his girlfriend ended, and 2) more importantly prove that GZ started a fight je would not win without his gun.

    • Is it possible that GZ took his jacket off before/during the scuffle and he was the one on top of TM?

      • GZ had on a light blue t-shirt under his jacket. Light blue is a lot closer to white than dark grey. If the red jacket was on the ground and they were wresting on top of it – that could also explain some of the eyewitness accounts that a person in white was on top of a person in red .. if TM was laying on top of the jacket GZ had taken off

        • There’s no blood on Zimmerman’s tshirt in the police department surveillance video.

      • If so, where’s the blood on his non black tshirt when arriving at the police station?

20. I would like to know how you deduced GZs path. Why couldn’t he have followed TMs path? He was following him after all. Creatively writing is a great way to make your point, but doesn’t necessarily lend credence to your investigative skills. To be a good investigator, you have to see both sides. Such as, what if he was attempting to follow down the sidewalk but with TM’s head start, TM actually made it past the first building on the sidewalk and hid between the buildings where you say GZ entered the crime scene. Then as GZ made his way down the sidewalk, TM came out and confronted GZ and the incident ensued?
    I don’t know what happened. I won’t convict GZ from mediocre theory in the media. Nor will I portray TM as nothing but an innocent victim. I think I will wait for the evidence.
    By the way, I spent 23.5 years as a criminal investigator. I have a little knowledge in this area, but admittedly do not know all the details of this case.
    Oh, as far as replacing the hoodie theory, No possible way. forensics are way beyond that. If the hoodie was off before the shot…no hole. if after the shot, blood smears inside when taking off and replacing. Why would he hide the fact that there was a struggle? That is his own defense.
    AND, How do you summize that GZ grabbing TMs hoodie means 1) that would have caused the call to TMs GF to end? and 2) “prove” that GZ started a fight he “would not win without his gun?” Who said he wouldn’t win without his gun?

    I wish Trayvon were alive to fill in the blanks.

    • Why would Zimmerman chase Trayvon using the exact same path? There’s no chance he’d catch up. Instead, as suggested in the 911 tape, Zimmerman believed Trayvon was running toward the back entrance and decided to cut him off.

      Unless, that is, GZ was chasing TM down from behind in his truck. The fight supposedly started when GZ was attacked while going back to his truck. So, his truck was near the shooting. The shooting was not near a street…at all.

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman not following the same path as Trayvon).

      • How do you know that he was trying to catch him. Maybe he was just trying to keep in visual range of the suspect. The best way to do that would be to follow Trayvon’s path.

        • Was Zimmerman told to stop following Trayvon? He could have kept a “visual” – even though nobody wanted him to – by looking down the sidewalk from the “T” until the police got there.

    • I agree with Bruce that the hoodie hypothesis is nothing but an …

      The phone call ended following a push that made it fall according to TM’s GF. So, if you follow her account of events, something made it fall off. I was just proposing that it could be the hoodie being pulled off.

      BTW, the phone call placed by TM to his GF isn’t just a claim from the said GF as ABCnews had obtained the phone logs that shows the GF received and answered to that call (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV).

      I agree that there is a possibility that TM went on to hiding to confront GZ later on. That would suggest TM was planning it. Moreover, doing it in the dark back path would add to the idea that TM may have been willing to hurt badly.

      Nevertheless, I don’t understand what would be TM’s goals in planning an attack on GZ. And planning this while calling your GF is even more disturbing.

      The same way, I don’t believe GZ was planning to kill TM. I believe, that it was an accident. However, I believe that GZ’s anger and frustrations, as demonstrated by his own call to police, made him make that mistake. GZ was 100% sure TM was one of these criminals that had to go to jail. He had one right in front of him, and he knew a police officer was coming. So, he just had to stop TM for a few minutes. But things went horribly wrong.

      Why? Because TM was just walking back home when he noticed that perfect stranger was stalking him. So, TM turned suspicious of GZ’s intentions. I mean, who wouldn’t be suspicious of a stranger following you in the street at night under the rain?

      You end up with two persons in total distrust going face-to-face with one of the two having a gun. The perfect storm…

      • Hey tchoupi.caillou,

        This is the first time I’m reading these comments on the site and not via the WordPress panel so I’m just now realizing you’re the “one” making a TON of excellent points. Thank you for your contributions!

        Quick question: After hanging up, why don’t you think GZ pursued TM in his truck? He told the operator that the police could call him insinuating that he wouldn’t be at the mailboxes anymore. If GZ pursued TM by truck to the shooting scene – GZ said he was originally attacked while getting back into his truck – he is SCREWED.

      • Thanks for the compliment. I’m building a more and more detailed analysis of the records. I just try to stick to what is on the records.

        To answer to your question. There is little way to know what GZ did before, during and after the 911 call, and there at this point even less ways we can track TM’s path mostly after the 911 call.

        Maybe phone location records if any would bring some light to that. Hopefully, some persons may have seen TM or GZ walking prior to the confrontation but paid no attention to it as most normal people would do.

        So, there is only so much you can do with what we’ve got from the 911 calls.
        If we believe GZ, at 7:09, TM was near the club house. GZ was able to give great details of how TM was dressed. Think of it, he saw the buttons on his shirt while no one would see the color of the shirts of the individuals within 20yards.

    • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the Update section. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

    • GZ might have won a fight without his gun. But I’ve never met a person who had a conceal and carry license that didn’t carry it with him into every situation legally possible, particularly if there’s a possibility of trouble.

21. Jon,

    How do you know that GZ’s truck was facing north?

22. For the people saying it should have took TM 3 minutes to get home, I remember George saying that TM was stopping to stand under the awnings to get out of the rain. I think it was GZ who said it.

    • It was raining. And, pretty hard per the 7th 911 call…the 10+ minute long one with the band teacher. Where did you hear George say Trayvon was under the awnings?

      • Update: It was actually Trayvon’s girlfriend that mentioned he was ducking under awnings to avoid the rain…

        http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-shooting-timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php

23. wow the distance from his car to the killing is 130 yards and his still claiming self defense

    • Unless Zimmerman pursued Trayvon by car (stalker?) even though he was told not to pursue him at all and just wait for the cops to show up.

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman pursuing Trayvon in his truck).

      • Yeah, maybe. But that wouldn’t make much sense unless he was drunk or insane. Either one is a possibility.

        Using the shortest possible distance, how far is it from the curb closest to the sidewalk leading in between the houses to where Martin died?

24. Very interesting. I will have to spend some time reading this. I just sent it to the Justice for Trayvon Martin Page here: https://www.facebook.com/JusticeforTrayvon. Please let me know when you update your analysis.

    • Thank you! Will do.

    • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com and posting the link to Facebook!

25. According to TV today GZ arrived at the police dept at 7:51 at which time as we all saw all the gushing blood and all signs of his brutal beating had miraculously disappeared. So when did they have time to clean up all that between 7:17 and 7:51, not that I trust everything I see on TV but I believe it was on the Ed Show.

    • Yeah, I find it weird that Zimmerman’s fatal shot didn’t result in blood covering his jacket, shirt, body, etc. No matter how much they cleaned him up at the scene, the cops should have been wearing gloves if there was blood present at the station.

      • It would not shock me at all if they had allowed him to change clothes before going in to the station. Sanford police don’t appear to be the best at this solving murders thing.

        • This would blow the case wide open. Wowser. I’d like to see the surveillance video from inside the squad car.

26. One thing I don’t understand is why people seem to be forgetting that Trayvon had a right to stand his ground as much as Zimmerman claims he was. It is known that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon. You cannot pursue someone and then claim self defense if that person puts up a fight.

    If Trayvon got a good punch in, he had every right too.

    Anyway, I read that Trayvon’s father thought that maybe he went to a cousin’s house or something when he didn’t come right back. He assumed Trayvon would be back in a while, so he went to bed. The kid was 17, so that doesn’t seem odd to me.

    He realized when he woke up the next morning that Trayvon had not come home.

    That’s what I read.

    • I agree fully! TM had to think this dude was a kidnapper or something. Especially if GZ was off roading* in his truck between the buildings.

      * I believe GZ said the fight started as he was just about to get back into his truck. The fight ended where it started. So, the truck must have been nearby which means it was in between buildings and not on the street?

      Update: See map above (and disregard this comment about Zimmerman off-roading).

      • If he was off roading and it was raining, you would expect to see tracks on the grass.

    • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com!

27. i think zimmerman watched trayvon walk and followed him in his car. trayvon told the girl on the phone he was being followed, how would he have known unless zimmerman was tailing him in the car. At one point trayvon ran, probably when he left the road (the road turns right, he veered left on the footpath). Not being able to go any further in the car zimmerman got out and that is where he lost sight of trayvon. Now trayvon probably didn’t want to lead some crazy to his house so instead of turning right and going behind the houses, your map shows the path also goes straight and comes out onto a road. Trayvon possibly ran there (he would be fast and zimmerman probably wasn’t even out of the truck yet so didn’t see which route he took). Trayvon told the girl he thought he lost him, zimmerman probably ran up the path and went right to behind the houses and kept going until he gave up, turned around and was heading back up the path on his way back to his car. Now that trayvon thinks the coast is clear he is heading back up the path he took and they probably met up right on the corner where they fought and trayvon was shot. It makes sense that they were facing each other and that no one came up from behind because trayvon questioned him. Now i would assume that this would only happen if their eyes met. Trayvon wanted to get away, george wanted to follow at a distance and now here they are face to face and words were exchanged. That sounds plausible to me, and would explain the time lost.
    Also the father had gone out for dinner that night and probably wasn’t back yet when all this was going on close to his home. He said when trayvon wasn’t there he thought he was with a cousin he had been spending time with.

    cheers and thanks for the map it is very interesting.

    • I was thinking your described route was plausible too. Thanks!

      • cheers, thanks for taking the time to read other versions, it shows that you are very open minded. much appreciated

    • I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above and gave props to you, Jo! Thanks again for checking out BccList.com.

    • tm dad thought he was at the movies and had turned his phone off. when the father arrived around 11ish “the crime scene had been cleared” … no yellow cs tape.

28. and i don’t believe george was justified in pulling the trigger. I’ve woken up after a bad dream with worse injuries than he is sporting, and see how when they got him out the police car and he casually leans against the wall…doesn’t look distraught to me. It’s not ok to stalk someone and then shoot them when the put up a fight.

    • Yeah – the police surveillance video absolutely destroyed the defense’s case that Zimmerman was roughed up anymore than if he had fallen in the shower.

29. I think the whole wannabe cop thing is a farce- like the man who gained entry to his woman victim’s house dressed as a fireman.or the child molester who is a teacher or similar situations. I believe Zimmerman saw TM going to the store. and stalked him w intent GZ new the neighborhood and who lived there TM didn’t (GZ’s advantage). GZpulled the clever phone call to add to his cop cover). ambushed TM between the bldgs. rolled around on the ground with him TM cried out loud for help GZ shut him up as planned. Then, the body mysteriously silently makes it to the morgue. where it lay for 3 days. WHo took it there? there is a missing person report the nxt day same pct small neighboorhood yet no one said hey what about that kid we took to the morgue last nite found 1 block from where the teen was reported missing. Big time cover up. full autopsy need. crime scene investigation needed. Investigation of GZ’s home needed. How did that body get to the morgue w/o noticing and Y.
    Wouldn’t the neighborhood buzz be “Hey a kid was found dead out here last nite nobody knows who he is.

    • Excellent points – thanks for the comment!

    • For what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com.

    • Holy smokes:

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

30. Your map IS wrong, as many people have told you, and you will likely refuse to change it based on the facts of the discussion between GZ & 911 Dispatch which I will point out. Nevertheless, the first error is your assumption that GZ was parked basically beside the clubhouse, which is located immediately inside the community’s main gate. GZ REPEATEDLY states the officer’s would need to come in through the gate, PAST the clubhouse, and continue to the left. GZ also stated at least once that he was at the “cutoff”. He stated the officers should come straight in the entrance, go past the clubhouse and make a left. He stated that he was parked at the cut-through which is where the officers should look for his truck. The cut-through is where the sidewalk cuts through from Twin Tree to Retreat View Cr. GZ was probably parked about where the car is shown parked at that corner on your map – NOT where you indicate he was parked.

    Secondly – GZ being parked at the corner, stated TM was staring at him, then that he was coming toward him. Shortly after he ask the dispatcher to get an officer out there quickly (indicating again that he felt insecure where he was), he stated TM had taken off running. After a secondary delay, audible alarms from the inside of an automobile are heard, likely as GZ exits his vehicle, and then the sounds of GZ running. As it has been stated, GZ runs for approximately 8 seconds, which probably put him near the Retreat View Cr side of the cut-off.

    GZ was on his way back to his truck, and was refusing to state his address out loud as he walked through that “no-man’s land”, between the two north-south units south of the cut-off, in my opinion.

    He was asked to give his home address, and stated he did not want to give that info because he didn’t know where the kid was, indicating he was still outside – not pursuing TM, but probably going back to his truck. GZ indicates he plans to return to his home, by telling dispatch to have police call him when they arrive and he will tell them where he is – obviously believing that he would make it to the safety of his home by the time they arrived, and would then be able to provide them with his address.

    And in fact, that GZ had returned to his truck or was very near to doing so is evidenced by news videos of the crime scene, which shows TM lying dead on the north side of the northernmost north-south building on Twin Tree and within view of the Twin Tree side of the cut-off. Additionally, several of the callers who stated they lived on the Retreat View Cr. side of the complex stated it was in their back yard. The police report states they were called to 1231 Twin Tree.

    This supports GZ’s story that he was confronted (from behind) by TM as he neared his truck, and the investigation’s conclusion that TM initiated the physical struggle that ended his life, and that GZ was “standing his ground”. This probable scenario is further affirmed by at least one witness’ statement that TM (the guy in the white shirt) was on top of the other person. It also completely destroys the media’s contention and the possible they and the Martin family are proffering to the public that GZ “hunted TM down”.

    Had GZ hunted TM down, he would have had his gun out, or in the very least, at the ready in his pocket with his hand in his pocket. That he was not expecting TM to follow him back to his truck is the obvious conclusion one MUST reach, because not only was GZ struck from behind (sucker punched) but he was obviously on the losing end of a physical fight/wrestling match for some period of time – long enough for TWO witnesses to see TM on top of GZ. One person (child) who says he/she heard people arguing/fighting outside, that he/she looked out and saw the person with the white shirt on top of someone else, and that he closed the door and got the telephone to call 911. The other male teen who witnessed the white-shirted person on top of the other male, had to chase his dog, or would have helped. So GZ obviously did not have access to his gun for a lengthy period, and instead was yelling for help repeatedly. It was originally thought that TM was the person heard calling for help – and his parents even claimed that such was the case – but it has since been revealed that GZ was the one yelling for help.

    If TM was being “hunted” down, he could have gone into his home after initially eluding GZ, but instead, he phoned his girlfriend and bragged to her about his escape, and when she begged him to keep running from GZ, he scoffed at the suggestion and stated he wasn’t going to run – he was gonna find out what GZ’s problem was. So after eluding GZ, TM followed him back to his truck, confronted him as revealed by GZ’s friend earlier this week, sucker punched him, and was on top of him pounding GZ’s head into the sidewalk when two different people witnessed the ongoing fight.

    So this IS undoubtedly an issue of self-defense, and GZ should NOT be charged with anything, UNLESS the gun he carried or his carrying of same was in any way unlawful.

    My next comments regard the contention that the video of GZ arriving at the PD for questioning shows GZ wasn’t injured, and therefore a claim of self-defense by him is invalid. Regardless what anyone THINKS they can tell from that video, and regardless a complete lack of injuries on GZ’s person (a position that flies in the face of police reports and paramedics’ statements), GZ was, at a point immediately preceding the shot which killed TM, being held on the ground by a person he did not know, who was at the very least, attempting to seriously injure or kill him – there are witnesses to this fact. GZ is heard screaming for help – in at least one 911 call, and several witnesses’/reporting parties’ statements to 911 dispatch confirm that someone was hollering for help. While many of the ear-witnesses assumed that because the hollering stopped when the shot was fired, the person who was shot was the person who had been hollering. We know now that was not the case. Obviously by being in a position of the attacked – not of the attacker – GZ had every right to stand his ground and should face no charges – the video from a distance is an indicator of nothing more than GZ arriving at the PD in cuffs. I am certain there are close-up photos of his injuries, the back of his jacket and the front of his shirt which support his version of events.

    To people who have attempted to twist the truth, and to portray TM as an innocent, small, scared boy who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, shame on you.

    One final comment – in the recollection of the final call between TM and his girlfriend, note that TM nor his girlfriend said anything about being near his home – or the home of his father and his father’s fiancee, for that matter. The girlfriend in fact doesn’t advise TM to get in his house as quickly as possible – she advises him to run away – get out of that neighborhood.

    It is some time before the family of TM is heard from –
    The incident occurred February 26.
    TM and GZ were both id’ed by PD on Feb 27.
    PD stated on Feb 29 that TM was visiting friends of the family for the week in Sanford. NOTHING about visiting friends in that gated community and certainly NOTHING about his father’s fiancee or his father living in that community. This leads me to believe the family was unaware of his whereabouts prior to and the day of the shooting.

    on March 8, EIGHT DAYS after the explanation of TM’s presence in Sanford by the PD, TM’s father holds a press conference in Orlando, asking that GZ be arrested and charged with murder. He states TM was visiting family members in Sanford. HE says NOTHING about having a fiancee who lived in that community, let alone living there himself.

    On March 10, TM’s family goes to the Sanford PD and asks that GZ be arrested. This is almost two full weeks after the death of TM. On that day, they tell the media that TM was unarmed and was walking back from a convenience store after buying some Skittles and something to drink. NOTHING IS SAID OF FAMILY MEMBERS LIVING IN THE GATED COMMUNITY, OR EVEN IN SANFORD, FOR THAT MATTER.

    On March 14, the media begins to report that TM was walking to his father’s home in the gated community.

    On March 16, the media reports that TM’s family claims he was returning to “a relative’s house” from the store.

    On March 19, the media reports that TM was returning to his father’s fiancee’s home in the gated community when the incident occurred.

    NO name or address of any person related to TM has been provided to the media, and the conclusion must be made that no relative or family member lived in the gated community. Which leads to the conclusion that TM had no legitimate business being in the gated community. The family’s constantly changing explanation of TM’s presence in the gated community is unfounded, and has been utilized to promote the notion that an innocent, unarmed young kid was murdered when in fact a hoodlum who thought he could intimidate a potential witness by physically assaulting him learned the hard way that some people carry guns to protect themselves, their homes and their communities.

    • Damn this is a lot to respond to – give me a few days – but, I stand by my map’s assertion that George’s car was parked by the mailboxes next to the clubhouse near the “cut through.”

      What’s wrong with your analysis that Zimmerman was talking about the “cut through” closer to where the murder occurred?

      1) Zimmerman said he was parked near the mailboxes during the 911 call. When asked for the address, he indicated that he was near a “cut through” and couldn’t see any numbers on the homes but the clubhouse at 111 (sic) Retreat Circle Drive was close enough. HOWEVER, since he would have been surrounded by houses, Zimmerman would have DEFINITELY been able to see street numbers on neighboring homes if parked near the more eastwardly “cut through” that you assume.

      2) Zimmerman couldn’t have seen Trayvon “acting suspicious” (by trying to avoid the rain by ducking under the clubhouse’s awnings) if he was parked near the “cut through” that was closer to the murder scene and further from clubhouse as you assume.

      3) Lastly, the post office won’t approve community mailboxes in inconvenient places where their workers need to get out of their vehicles to deliver the mail and there’s no sign of mailboxes by the street corner/cross walk near the “cut through” you’re assuming.

      You’ve been served! I’ll get to the other stuff later.

      Update: See map above regarding Zimmerman’s truck’s location.

    • A) The reason Zimmerman didn’t want to give out his address is not because Trayvon was still in his vicinity and would have heard it. If that’s what you’re assuming, you just lost any/all credibility.

      B) Why do you think Zimmerman was in a hurry to get home BEFORE the cops showed up? He didn’t give his home phone number of (407) 878-6007. Instead, he gave his cellphone number of (407) 435-4200. Shouldn’t Zimmerman have just waited a minute or two for the police to show up to the mailboxes near the clubhouse? Yes, but he wanted to play hero and pursue this “suspicious looking black guy that looks like he’s on drugs or something.”

      C) Where did you see/read/hear this: “Is evidenced by news videos of the crime scene, which shows TM lying dead on the north side of the northernmost north-south building on Twin Tree and within view of the Twin Tree side of the cut-off.”

      D) Your speculation that Trayvon Martin shouldn’t have been in the gated community is crazy. Like 9/11 Truther/Tim McVeigh crazy. Google: Tracy Martin’s girlfriend’s name. You’ll find it and then you’ll find her permanent residence is within that gated community.

    • LaneLowe,

      You fail big time on that one.

      The biggest of all is the latest assertion that TM had no business of being in that community. Apparently, you’re one of the last person on hearth not knowing the address of his father’s GF.

      The location of GZ’s truck isn’t clear because GZ isn’t clear in his 911 call.
      I mean, he has been patrolling the subdivision for years and he can’t tell the name of the street he is in while there are only 3. He also keeps on telling police to go straight past the club house, make a left and past the mailboxes while the proper sequence is to go straight past the club house and mailboxes and then make a left.

      All that said, thanks for your opinion about what GZ meant with cut-through. I think it is a valid point and it would place the truck near the southward curb. it would also mean that GZ was actually following TM by car from the club house to the curb which in itself is stalking (a form of aggression).

      I agree with you that GZ feared for his safety. It is clear when he gave away his address. His distrust of TM is actually clear all along the 911 call. My questions to you is : What is the ground for that fear?
      I’ll give you a hint. My daughter turns irrational when she sees a spider. I end up being forced to kill it to bring her back to reason. Her doctor may say that she suffers from arachnoPHOBIA.

      • Another great response – thanks! I definitely owe you a beer…let me know if you ever visit Detroit or Chicago as I spend all my time near one of those 2 cities. Ha!

    • LaneLowe: Your analysis still doesn’t make sense to me but, for what it’s worth, I suggested an alternative map in the “Update” section above. Thanks again for checking out BccList.com.

    • I owe you an apology regarding A).

      I just listened to the uncut 911 tape and Zimmerman is indeed afraid somebody would hear him give out his address. Jesus this guy is crazy. Like the last thing a “black guy on drugs or something” would remember hearing is 1950 Retreat View Circle.

    • Well, LaneLowe…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

31. The Teenage Problem with Authority:

    When I was TM’s age, from my mid-late teens, it could be said that I like a lot of male teens was prone to spiting authority.

    Let me clarify.

    By all indicators, I was a polite and respectful young man. I got good grades, no discipline problems in school, and I was generally a good kid who listened to my parents.

    That being said, I was not always agreeable to strangers who felt they had a right to “parent” me or “order” me to do what they wanted. People saying, “You can’t ride your bike/skate here”, or “You can’t be back here” (When I was using a public street passing through, or even someone questioning me who had no visible right to do so.

    I’m not talking about a law enforcement officer or someone of real authority stopping me and me giving attitude, but random adults who feel like they have the right to intervene.

    If I was in TM’s situation, I can see myself if stopped by a fat old man on a power trip asking “who are you, and where are you going, what are you doing here”, anything like that.. I would have problem told him to $#$* off fat man.

    And for GZ who seemingly was just waiting for a conflict to arise – It’s entirely possible a shouting match of threats could arise.

    I can see myself being TM being the kid holding a bottle of tea and a bag of skiddles. A white kid shot for bucking some old fat man or woman pushing their false authority and harassing me, who I ended up calling out and making threats to.. not because I was dangerous but because I was a young male teenager with raging testosterone, who by every day is polite and leads a normal, serene life, but just like GZ, is also looking for the rare opporunity to argue or makefun of an old crotchety adult who thinks they have the right to tell me what to do.

    • Agreed. It sounds like I’ve still got some Teenage Authority issues though because even at my age of 30-35, I would have responded exactly as Trayvon reportedly did. Then again, I’m white and would never have to defend walking home in the rain with some skittles and iced tea.

      • How do you have a clue about how Martin responded to what?
        There is no factual evidence whatsoever, about what happened between the time Zimmerman ended the call with SPD and the first 911 call came in, or the sole eyewitness.

      • Exactly. That’s one reason for the ruckus about SYG. The black community strongly feels this law jeopardizes not only the safety of black males, but their inability to have it used in a fair manner if the race of the victim and subject were the other way around.

        Here’s something else to think about. Now why would a teenager talking on the phone with his sweetheart, off and on all day, right up to the fatal moment, be interested in anything Zimmerman is doing, such as, according to Zimmerman, i.e. “he’s just looking at me, checking me out”. These statements don’t sound at all threatening to me. They sound just like the ones made by a female co-worker who thinks she’s really hot, who in my humble opinion, IS NOT.

        It wouldn’t surprise me in the least bit if it were uncovered Zimmerman has sexually assaulted some black boys, and perhaps other minority children. Allegedly, Zimmerman was raised a strict Catholic, and may have been abused as a child. I know this is just suppositon, but it is probable.

        The police report states Trayon was shot in the chest but found face down. Witnesses say they saw Zimmerman bent down, straddling Trayvon, with his hands on his back or neck; some say standing.

        I really would like to know what could/would have caused Trayvon to be found dead with “his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, and saliva coming from his mouth”. You got any clues No Longer?

        Can’t wait for the ME’s report to come out. It’s long overdue. There’s probably a gag order on it until the trial. It’ll be interesting what else it reveals in addition to the bullet wound.

    • I agree AJ. If I were in TM’s shoes, I would have told GM that I was minding my own f’ing business if he would have questioned me. I have no problem with authority and I would have no problem explaining myself to a uniformed officer or someone with the respect to identify him/her self before questioning me. In my past experience, someone is normally up to no good if they are following you and confront you. When I was younger, I was stopped in a neighborhood in Detroit just for riding my bike on a gang rival’s street. If I didn’t talk quick and mention that I meant no harm, I would have been beaten up and tossed in the street. I was also stopped in another neighborhood in Chicago just because I wore a red headband. A car was following me and cut me off to question men. I told them that I was not a gang member and the headband was red because it was the color from my school. In both those incidents, I was confronted by black teenagers as I was a black teenager myself. I can definitely relate to how TM must have felt when he saw the unmarked car following him home. If TM is the thug that the media has made him out to be, it would be totally reasonable for him to fear for his life with someone following him home and the only weapons he has are some skittles and a can of ice tea.

      Since this incident occured, my view on this issue has changed. Like I mentioned before, I probably would have told GZ to leave me alone and go F himself. However, as a black man in America, this situation has showed me that it would probably be more beneficial for me to fully explain myself and to make sure something doesn’t escalate. In the end, life is too short to act like a tough guy especially when there are people like Zimmerman on the streets.

      • Very well said, Will! Thank you for visiting the site and commenting.

    • This is not an authority issue. At 16 or 17 you nor Trayvon are accountable to any random adult that approaches you on the street. According to the girlfriend Zimmerman never identified himself-even the police have to do that-when asked. Even with the police you have the right to remain silent per my friend who is a federal judge. Trayvon did everything right and still got shot.

      • Psychologist:

        I totally agree. Especially when you consider the fact, the confessed murderer admitted he physically assaulted ATF LEO’s because they did not identify themselves to him.

        Even his parents and wife admitted, under oath during the bond hearing, they did not see anything wrong with the confessed murderer’s actions, and even justified his physical assault on the LEO’s. Why would a retired judge feel his son’s illegal actions against LEO’s were warranted? Doesn’t make any good common sense or logic.

        I don’t know of any mature and responsible parent or grandparent, who would feel it is okay for their children or grandchildren to physically assault LEO under any circumstances. Yet, the judge, his wife and daughter-in-law thought it was okay.

        Yet, there are those practicing a double standard who believe the confessed murderer’s actions towards LEO’s were justified because they allegedly showed no identification, but feel Trayvon, a child, should have identified himself to a total stranger, who nonetheless, was not a LEO, but a citizen who was on mood altering drugs who has a history of physical violence against LEO’s and women.

        http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/03/29/zimmermannofzinger-fix-now-a-fact/

        T.G.

32. Zimmerman looks like an Illegal Alien Mexican drug cartel member. no wonder Trayvon ran. He could very well have been attempting to kidnap Trayvon to use in a Santoria human sacrifice black magic ritual, for all Trayvon knew. Zimmerman was clearly eye-fucking the boy.

    Under any account any of you can imagine, Zimmerman got out of his truck and hunted for this youth he had already convicted over and over in his imagination. It is all clear in the 911 call what is going on in his crazy head.

    Under any account, Zimmerman was no where near a street sign he claims to be looking for. He gives away his motive for hunting Trayvon because “they always get away”. He had clear intention to apprehend his suspect and detain him until the police arrived and called his cell, the he would tell them where he was holding Trayvon.

    Trayvon and Zimmerman exchanged words. We know that from the girlfriend. There was no way to pretend Trayvon was “lying in wait to ambush Zimmerman.” He asked why are you following me and was attacked by Zimmerman as he attempted to apprehend his suspect.

    Zimmerman’s Dad, the liar who is trying to craft the scott free murder for his son, who he has bailed out for years, first attempted to make the sidewalk the murder weapon to place with Trayvon. Then, just as the news of the video showing no significant injury broke, the lie had to change . So he went on the fox affiliate in Fla to change ghe story to now getting off the sidewalk, and now having his concealed gun exposed. Elder Zimmerman is in so much denial, he can’t even say that George shot Trayvon, he can only say that George “did what he did”.

    Zimmerman had no business straddling the dying boy. He was no doubt staging the crime scene in some way, to hide what he had done. The So called first witness, the”hannity” witness, is suspect. Fox caters to conservatives and ther belief in cultural hierarchy, they can’t be trusted to do anything but manufacture false information at serves their brand. Zimmerman shoved a cop, he probably also shoved Trayvon, just like the girlfriend heard.

33. A very creative rendition to say the least. One would have to disregard Zimmerman’s statement that there was a guy hanging around and he never once states that Martin came walking through the main gate at the front.
    The black arrows assuming Martin’s path are inconsistent with Zimmerman telling the operator that Martin had ran and was heading towards the back entrance.
    Nor is that path a logical route to the father’s girlfriend’s residence for someone who is familiar with it’s location.
    What is the reason for Zimmerman’s assumed decision to make a left turn at that particular opening between residences?
    And, with Martin already on the run, having a generous head start, how was Zimmerman able to “cut him off” at that location?

    • See the updated map above.

      • That’s the map I was referring to. It’s preposterous to think that if Martin was heading for that address that he only was able to cover less than 100 yards in well over 2 minutes. Lying in wait until Zimmerman ended his phone call is looking more to be the case.
        The entire story has been based off what “DeeDee” claimed happened from the other side of a phone call.
        Question,… What did she think had happened to Martin later that evening,… the next day,… 2-3 days later? Did the father or his girlfriend not notice that Martin had just vanished? Did they not notice the activity of a crime scene, the news, neighbors talking about the incident for days and never suspect that Martin was the one who was shot?
        No missing person’s inquiry,….. he just vanished?
        None of that scenario makes sense.
        There was a whole lot more going on that evening than meets the ears via the press.
        A four mile round trip, on foot in the rain to buy Skittles and a beverage?

        • A) I don’t care if he was doing jumping jacks while smoking a blunt – or waiting to see wtf was up with this creepy guy following him – during those 2 minutes. He was being stalked. Yes, he could have gone home. I agree. He could have also been trying to ID the guy so he could call the cops and report him for stalking people.

          B) Has anybody seen her phone records after the incident? So, how can you say she didn’t try reaching out to Trayvon again that night? And, I didn’t have my girlfriend’s parents’ cellphone numbers growing up so who was she to call if Trayvon wasn’t answering? She’s probably not ULTRA paranoid like Zimmerman – not many are – so I doubt she’d call 911, right?

          C) Where did you get the 2-3 days? Here’s Trayvon’s dad the very next day: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

          D) The round-trip was 1.5 miles which is a 20-30 ish minute walk. I do that daily for lunch or when I want something from my local convenience store.

          Before you say the shooting/fight occurred where Tracy Martin was filmed in the above link, make sure to check out the police report and the 1:40 mark of this link…

      • From what I have read, TM’s father was not home when the incident happened. He came home later that night and assumed Trayvon was at a friend’s house. The next morning, he called the police since he did not come back and he wasn’t answering his phone.

        • Thank you for the comment! Since my original posting on March 27th, what you mentioned as been confirmed. Here’s Trayvon’s father the day after:

          http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4

          At the 1:40 mark, here’s Tracy Martin showing the shooting scene – south of the T per the police report also – a few days later:

      • Hatrick Penry,

        “Attorneys for Martin’s family said it wasn’t until weeks later, when Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father, was looking through the teen’s cell phone bill that he noticed the timing of the last call. The family and their attorneys then contacted Trayvon’s girlfriend and heard her account of the night. Lawyer Benjamin Crump, who represents the family, recorded an interview with the girl and provided it with Martin’s cell phone records to federal authorities, who by then had joined the investigation.

        The logs, obtained by The Huffington Post, show that as Zimmerman was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher reporting Martin as “suspicious,” Martin answered a final call from his girlfriend.

        The call began at 7:12 p.m. Martin told her that “some strange dude” was following him, said Crump. She told Crump that Martin slowed to see who was behind him. The girl urged him to run, and he picked up his pace. Martin said he thought the man was gone, according to Crump. Instead, Zimmerman was likely closing in.

        “He’s right behind me, he’s right behind me again,” Martin told his girlfriend, according to Crump.

        “Next thing she hears is Martin saying, ‘Why are you following me?'” Crump said. “And she hears a voice that says, “What are you doing around here?’ Then she hears what she believes is a push against Martin and the phone crashes to the ground. She can hear them arguing in the background. Moments later, the phone line goes dead.”

        Phone records show the call ended at 7:16 p.m. Police arrived roughly a minute later.”

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/trayvon-martin-cops-botched-investigation_n_1409277.html

      • See also: http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/04/trayvon-martin-girlfriend-interviewed-prosecutors

        “Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend has been formally interviewed by prosecutors in connection with the unarmed 17-year-old’s death after neighborhood watch captain, George Zimmerman shot and killed him, RadarOnline.com is exclusively reporting.”

        “Martin’s girlfriend, who is a minor so RadarOnline.com won’t be disclosing her identity, was interviewed at an undisclosed location for more than two and a half hours.

        ‘Trayvon’s girlfriend was interviewed by the two district attorneys that Special Prosecutor Angela Corey appointed to the case,’ a source tells RadarOnline.com. ‘She was interviewed last week and her mother was present throughout. She was very forthcoming and had pertinent information to the investigation because she was the last person that talked to Trayvon before George Zimmerman shot and killed him. It was extremely emotional for her and her mother wanted to make sure it wasn’t too much for her. She would be a very compelling witness for the state of Florida if criminal charges are filed against George Zimmmerman.’ ”

        “The Florida State Attorney’s Office has issued a subpoena for Trayvon’s girlfriend to appear in front of the grand jury when it’s impaneled on April 10. “

34. All of the discussion regarding the car location and which direction either of them went is all fine and good. But TM was found face down with a gunshot to the chest. And we have conflicting reports of who was on top of whom. Can someone please offer a reasonable theory on exactly what position TM was in when he was shot?

    Was he on top of GZ when shot in the chest and then fell to the ground and ended up on his chest? Or was he laying on the ground already, with GZ on top when shot in the chest (in which case we need to know how he ended up face down). Or what?

    I’ve sorted this over and over and read every report there is and I’m like you guys, someone who likes to study and investigate. This is not making sense to me and I’m sure there’s only one really good explanation that will fit with all the reports. I personally think the tape caught TM yelling for help, but we don’t know yet who it was. I think that would have bearing on where he was when shot.

    And while I’m at it, I’m betting my 2cents that GZ unholstered his gun when he went after TM. Given everything we know so far it makes sense that he would get his gun out as he crept around in the darkness following this suspected druggie guy that ‘had his hand in his waistband’ – my interpretation: he has a gun in his waistband, therefore I”m getting my gun out.

    Alas, if I’m right on that point, it gets really easy to see how a deadly confrontation took place. GZ should have stayed put in his car, he was just stupid to take matters into his own hands.

    • Excellent points – thank you!

      Check out my most recent update on the truck’s location! Why did Zimmerman ever head south on the sidewalk? That’s not walking back to his car. At all. His “Stand Your Ground” defense is that he was attacked while walking back to his car after the 911 operator told him to stop following Trayvon. Hmmmm.

      I’m like you – confused about who was on top/bottom. Zimmerman’s side of the story is that he was on the bottom getting pummeled by Trayvon, right? If he shot upwards into Trayvon’s chest cavity, there would be insane amounts of blood all over Zimmerman’s body/clothing and we would have seen that in the police video. And, of course, the officers would have been wearing gloves in the video.

      I’m not sure who was yelling for help. Zimmerman has stated in the police report that he was continuously yelling for help but nobody came. That’s tough to do with a broken nose while you’re gargling blood though, right? If you’re the aggressor and somebody’s screaming for help, do you think you’d make noise too or just quietly go upon the ass whooping? Meaning, why isn’t Trayvon Martin on tape yelling anything if Zimmerman is repeatedly screaming for help?

      Good point regarding the gun. I never thought of that. Zimmerman was paranoid as shiat when he was in the safety of his own car that Trayvon was reaching in his waistband for something (like skittles and iced tea, eh?) so he’d likely not have his finger too far from the trigger. Excellent point!

      Yup – If Zimmerman just listens to the 911 operator instead of playing hero and doesn’t stalk Trayvon, nobody dies.

    • 2 experts say it WASN’T Zimmerman crying for help…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    • Janet:

      I agree. My very first impression was the murderer was sliding a clip into the chamber when I heard the tapping and clicking noises. I strongly believe he already had his gun drawn before he found Trayvon. Trayvon’s screams and yells sound like someone caught off guard and horrified by the element of surprise.

      The noises/sounds never gave me the impression he was knocking on a door. Seems if it were a door, the knocks would be consistent, maybe louder or lower, but a knock would not sound like a click. I also believe the confessed murderer knew one of the male witnesses. There is a witnesses who stated the confessed murderer stated, “Call my wife and tell her I just killed somebody”. This witness has to know who his wife is in order to deliver the message.

      I still wonder what could have caused “…..his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth”…

      The confessed murderer also stated Trayvon tried to smother him and he could not brearth. However, from the description of Trayvon’s body, I got the distinct impression the murderer may have been trying to smother Trayon. Afterall, 2 witnesses did see him straddling Trayvon while pushing down on his back as Trayvon lay face down on the ground.

      It just seems as though the murderer has some type of disassociative disorder where he projects the very things he’s doing onto Trayvon, and the things that Trayvon did he claims it was him.

      For example, he says the screams were his, however we now know they were not. He accuses Trayvon of starring at him, coming towards him, hands in waist, etc. which are the very things the confessed murderer was doing.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

      T.G.

      • I wonder if 1 of the 2 shadows reportedly seen running that night was of a man carrying a pistol in hand.

        • Now we know that TM had smoked MJ. That would have made him subdued and paranoid, not aggressive! More evidence that GZ is a fraud!
          Note: When whites use or sell MJ, it’s “counter cultural and/or recreational”
          But when blacks use or sell it, it’s criminal and/or “pushing”drugs.

          You see, his narrative of the events of that day, are quite obviously fashioned and contrived to meet the standards he has in mind, as being the controlling standards that need answers.

          Racism? He’s proud of his Hispanic Heritage, even though the SPD thinks he’s white. His reporting history is only against young black males.

          NW rules? Justify gun carry with claim to not be on patrol, just a trip to the store. But, if he uses RVC, which bends to the right, he’s out the gate in less than a minute, with eyes right to manage the curve in the road. He wouldn’t see TM if TM was to his left, he goes by in about 1 second or less. If TM is to his right, he spots him from behind. Neither of which is the case.

          Instead he comes out of his garage, goes straight for a few feet then turns right, straight for another couple of seconds and then turns left, straight for another few seconds then turns right, a few more feet then left again to go out the front gate. Why take such a complicated route just to make a quick trip to the store in the rain?

          So, we have an uncharacteristic route to the front gate for a trip that most people would rather not make in the rain, unless it was pretty darned urgent, like running out of toilet paper. If the trip was urgent, you’d pretty well leave most other things aside. Like stopping and waiting for someone to arrive walking in the rain, in a gated community where people hardly even walk in the sun. Yet, it appears that several minutes pass, since GZ has left his garage, and he’s still found approximately 300 feet from his house? Does that sound like an urgent trip to the store? Or more like “laying in wait”?

          “Hand in waistband” Uh-oh, he may have a gun, eh? Sure, the SPD will be glad to have me follow while armed, since that takes the load off them. Only it doesn’t work out that way, SPD tells him not to follow, but to wait! The answer? Introduce confusion: “I’ll get an address!” Wha??? In a community he’s patrolled for 2 years, that has only 3 streets, he can’t describe where he is? Guess he hasn’t learned anything since the last several call ins he made?
          This is the first clue you have, that GZ has something else in mind.
          That “something else”, explains why GZ doesn’t identify himself, when TM comes towards and walks past his car. What? Why is GZ acting like he’s James Bond on the trail of some international criminal master mind? Instead of a simple neighborhood watcher, trying to keep the community safe for all?

          He tells the 911 operator that he’s been made by TM, making it unlikely that he’s going to witness any crime, even if his suspect is a criminal. So then, why not end the hostile atmosphere then and there by identifying himself?
          But no, that would preclude whatever else GZ has planned! Result in a wasted set up, where all his patter about waistband, looking about, he’s on drugs, gets wasted. So, this now all gets put down to planning, and we see what was planned, in it’s aftermath.

          We’re getting glimpses of the kinds of people GZ attracts and it isn’t a pretty mix.

35. The Wagist blog lays out a different scenario. I am going with theirs.

    http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back#comments

    • I’ll go with the most recent scenario that I’ve described above in the Update section.

36. Actually, Trayvon Martin’s father lied to the Miami Herald when they asked him why his son had been from suspended from school. Then he got mad when they went and investigated his statement and found out it was drugs.

    • Are you referring to the empty baggie with traces of Marijuana? He obviously was not a heavy user of drugs if they found no traces during the autopsy. It’s interesting that Zimm was not checked out for alcohol and drug use.

37. Anyone read the officer who took the police statement? He saw blood coming from Zimmerman’s nose and head

    • How can you supposedly scream for help several times when your nose is broken and you’re gargling on blood? Why wasn’t anybody at the police station wearing gloves?

38. Another comment. No one has mentioned that Trayvon lived in Miami, not at the house he was visiting in Sanford. He most likely would have been confused by the maze of identical town homes and walkways. This may account foAtonat Zimmerman sees as “acting strange”, looking around, and also may play a factor in his route “home” and the length of time.

    It interesting that we have already developed a warped view in the shared narrative – Zimmerman lives there, and we’re supposed to find it reasonable that he has to look for a street name after being told not to follow, yet Trayvon is just visiting, and we expect him to be able to navigate that hall of mirrors of a neighborhood like the back of his hand.

    Can you imagine? According to ABC, the girlfriends says he said Zimmerman was creepy looking. And he does look creepy to me in the police video. Scary. Cold. Not nice. He sounds scary and cold in the calls. Psychotic.

    • I can’t disagree. Thanks again for the comments.

    • Apparently his cell phone had ear buds. When people are talking to someone you can’t see, you first think maybe they are insane. Sometimes people gesture while talking. If Zimmerman was in the car, he may not have realized that Martin was talking on a cell phone.

    • Considering there are only two or three streets for that complex, how hard could’ve be to make that determination. I heard the mother of of the youngest witness saying that the kids there liked playing football with him, so my guess would be that he was fairly familiar.

      Acting strange, looking around…you’d have to consider the source. Not as if he was doing cartwheels up/down the street in the rain. He knew he had no legitimate reason for asking them to come out, so had to make up something. In my opinion, they should’ve asked for more details related to ‘acting strange’, looking around, at the houses…is he looking directly in someone’s window, attempting to open a window/door?

39. In regard to the directions, he is trying to say,”Come straight in, don’t take the first left, instead proceed straight past the mailboxes and follow the road to the left, then you’ll see my truck.” this puts his truck somewhere past the left curve and before the right curve.

    First escalation is the staring match started by Zimmerman.
    Next escalation is the following in the car.
    Next escalation is the following on foot.
    We know Zimmerman is lying about being cold cocked. Instead, Trayvon asks “why are you following me?

    Which brings us to the next escalation.

    Now at this moment, let’s pretend you are 14 days past 16 years old. Are you going to initiate a struggle with a scary crazy person twice your age and wieght? When you’re trying to get to the second half of the all star game with your candy?

    On the other side, let’s pretend you’re a gun nut, you have a concealed carry, you declare yourself neighborhood watch and call the police on any black person you see in the neighborhood. You go to police training out of your desire to play cop. You have your number listed in the condo association to call in case of danger. You have called the police over 50 times. You see someone who looks like a bad guy, you call 911. They tell you not to follow and to wait at the entrance to meet the officers, you disobey and lament that “they always get away”. You follow your prey, who is now attempting to run from you. You tell the police to call you, and you’ll let them know where you’re at. You have a history of violent confrontation. You have struck your girlfriend, even a cop. You come upon your suspect and he asks, why are you following me?

    Zimmerman doesn’t answer Trayvon’s question, he doesn’t identify himself. What is the likey next move of Zimmerman at this moment, based on his mindset and history?

    • Great points – thank you!

    • I’ll answer that! When asked “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman realizes that he doesn’t have an answer that makes any sense! He also realizes that doesn’t look good in relationship to the actions he’s taken so far.
      He has followed a suspect while armed, even though the SPD has told him not to do so. He, of course realizes that this is a serious offense against the NW rules he’s been taught, because they place so much emphasis on not following, and even more on not being armed.

      In sum total, he realizes instantly that he has no good answer, and that his actions will terrify the SPD, such that they’ll have no other choice but to take away his NW status and his command.

      He realizes that if Trayvon gets to tell his story to his people, the entire community will have some serious questions about him! That is not going to make him look very good anymore, in anyone’s eyes. And finally, he realizes that if TM tells his story, he will be humiliated in front of the community.

      The question: “Why are you following me?” by a 17 year old child with candy and iced tea in his hands, says “I’m not a criminal, I’m just a kid”.
      So GZ decided that the “fix” would be, not to let TM tell his side of the story!
      Allowing him to become some sort of hero, and hopefully leaving his lifetime of failure and obscurity behind.

40. Excellent dialogue and analysis. I’ve certainly enjoyed reading facts and theories rather than supposition, presumption and conjecture and I congratulate you on simply examining the evidence, forming theories but not asserting them as facts. I’ve been following this story in the news but really couldn’t get my head around it. I started looking for map (I can’t get from the bedroom to the bathroom without a map – I think they add clarity and perspective) Then I began reading your theory and the alternate theories provided by your readers. Each brought something valuble to the discussion. I believe I have a better understanding of what happened. Nice work everyone!

    S

    • Thank you – this comment means a lot (to me at least)!

41. First of all, thanks for this blog. I’ve been sort of obsessed with this case and trying to puzzle it out but I’ve seen nothing but vitriol and grief on the internets. Going through these responses and looking at your map has helped a lot.

    I have a thought, and it occurred to me when someone here asked why Martin didn’t call 911. Well, maybe he DID. I am not up to the moment on the technology of cell phones, but it used to be that if you called 911 but you were out of town in a different area code, the call would go to the dispatcher in your home town. When I got my first phone, I was told if I needed to get emergency services and I was out of town, I would need to tell the dispatcher what city I was in.

    We know that the Sanford police failed to even check Martin’s phone. The call to the girlfriend was discovered by either the Martins or their lawyer. Maybe there’s a 911 call they don’t even know about? I’m skeptical of my own theory though. Why wouldn’t the Martins have released that information by now? Who knows.

    And I realize it’s all conjecture. But I thought I’d throw it out there.

    • Thanks for the kind words. I’m not sure how 911 works with cellphones. Anybody?

    • Hey MissTee:

      A blog visitor left a comment today with the link below — the story is from March 26th but I hadn’t heard about the possibility of Trayvon making a 911 call until your above comment awhile ago. Thanks!

      http://m.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-made-his-own-911-call-before-his-death-fbi-investigates

      I guess we’ll see. The phone records, once they become public when this case goes to trial, will definitely be interesting.

42. Here is something else we may be able to deduce.

    At 2:08 in the audio, Zimmerman says “he’s running”.

    At 2:39 in the audio, Zimmerman says “He ran”; we assume from this that this is the point he loses sight of Trayvon.
    If Trayvon and Zimmerman did cross paths, like you suggest, I think its safe to assume Trayvon started running after he past Zimmerman; running away from him.
    Trayvon has now had 30 secs on run time.

    The audio call ends at 4:05, that gives Trayvon another 1:26 (86 Seconds) of travel time after Zimmerman loses sight of him.

    If we only assume that when Trayvon was running, he was running at your light jog speed (100ft in 10sec.) and he did this for 30sec. That’s 300 ft. Even if we assume Trayvon started walking immediately after the 30sec. run, we add 425 ft. (86 seconds at 100 ft per 20 seconds). For a total of 725 ft. at least.

    Even with the most conservative estimates, it seems Trayvon had more than enough time to get home.

    • Zimmerman said he was just heading back to his car when Trayvon attacked him from behind. Why did he head south down the path (to the eventual murder scene) when his car was due west?

      He should of said: “I continued to pursue Trayvon even though I was told told to stop and he was whopping my ass so I murdered him.”

      • We don’t know if he pursued him after the call ended, it’s very possible he did. It’s also possible he started to walk down the path in search of Trayvon and when he didn’t see him, he started back to his truck.

        Nothing in this timeline and graphic, of which you did a pretty good job by the way, proves who initiated the confrontation or started the fight.

        • Thank you (regarding the updated map).

          There was no reason to go down the path as – again – he was told to stop following the person.

          Zimmerman said he stopped following Trayvon after the call and went back to his truck when he was attacked from behind. That’s unequivocally false given this map.

43. Follow-up:
    Using your scale, it looks like about 2 house widths per 200 feet. From the point of Zimmerman’s car, it looks to be about 450-500 ft to Trayvon’s home. Trayvon had a minimum of 725 ft of travel, again more then enough time to get home.

    The point of the shooting is about 200 ft from his home, meaning Trayvon only travels 250-300 ft after he started running at 2:08 in the audio. The call ends at about 4:05. Trayvon has at least 2 full minutes to get home. Where does he go?

    • Maybe he was sticking around to see what the hell was up with this crazy guy stalking him?

      Why did Zimmerman go south on the path? He was told to stop pursuing Trayvon and – per my calculation – his car was due west of where the 911 call ended.

    • Well, if it were me, I’d be hiding up against a building or in the bushes waiting to see if I’d lost creepy guy. Then once I thought the coast was clear I’d start walking home again. He did tell his girlfriend he thought he’d lost him.

    • It was raining. Maybe he was hiding out somewhere from the rain?? Remember he thought he had lost the creepy guy who was following him.

44. I’m not taking sides here, just pointing out that there are other uncomfortable questions regarding this incident, like what was Trayvon doing during this time and why he didn’t go home when he could have.

    If this goes to trial, the defense is sure to bring this up; it adds to reasonable doubt.

    • Trayvon could have been doing whatever he wanted – hiding at home, jumping jacks, eat skittles/drinking iced tea, etc. – since he was the one being STALKED.

45. Regardless (or irregardless, which is correct?) of exactly where Zimmerman’s truck was parked and exactly where Trayvon and he walked, Zimmerman used poor judgment and was profiling someone which ultimately caused a teenager his life. It is obvious he was stalking the teenager. Zimmerman had no idea Trayvon was on a cellphone due to his using a headset. Zimmerman also had no idea how much forensic evidence was left behind just from the 911 tapes and the girlfriend’s cellphone conversation with Trayvon. And Zimmerman’s father needs to shut up because he’s just making the case worse for his son. If Trayvon had been threatening Zimmerman during their fight, I think it would have been picked up on the 911 call that picked up the screams for help. With that much adrenaline going on, Trayvon would have been yelling the threat, not whispering it. The cries for help also sound more like a young, male black voice than that of an older male.

    • Regardless is correct…irregardless isn’t a word. 🙂

      The moment Zimmerman decided to NOT go back to his truck (as he was instructed to do) was the moment he lost his “Stand Your Ground” argument. He got in a fight with a teenager, (purposely?) lost, and murdered the unarmed person he was fighting.

      • In my estimation he lost his right to SYG several times.
        1. When the “suspect” made him, he would know that someone being followed would make every effort to lose his tail. Would not commit any crime, knowing he was being followed. So GZ’s best bet at that point, to keep the nabe safe, is to identify himself, and possibly discover that TM was no suspect at all.

        2. When GZ exits his vehicle to follow, he’s escalating hostilities by this action alone. Thus, he loses SYG rights again.

        3. When he exits his vehicle, carrying a weapon, he again breaks the rules and becomes a criminal himself! He knows of no reason that requires him to follow TM with a firearm! So that’s another escalation of hostilities GZ performs willfully.

        4. When he turns south at the ‘T’, he again escalates the hostilities he has been instructed to end! Hostilities he, himself has agreed to end, but now secretly refuses to do!

        5. When TM asks him to identify himself and/or explain his actions, once again GZ escalates hostilities “off the board”, by refusing to comply immediately. The question “Why are you following me?”, shows that TM has no idea of who GZ is or what he is doing. While GZ is equally ignorant of who TM is and what he is doing! By refusing to answer a direct challenge, all the while knowing that he is operating outside of the rules he has been given, and the advice of the police, GZ is allowing himself to continue to be in a criminal mode. The SPD would not agree that GZ should be where he is, at this time! The NW rules definitively state and prohibit that GZ should be where he is and doing what he’s doing. And with a prohibited firearm to boot!

        When the first officer arrives on the scene, if he had been aware of what had transpired, his first question would have been: “What are you doing here, since we told you to stop and not to follow and you agreed that you weren’t?” His next statement would then have been, “You have no right to be here at all, therefore you are under arrest for homicide!”

        Of course, the first officer on the scene could not have known what transpired. But a quick review of the 911 tapes, should have resulted in a conclusion that GZ did continue to follow, after being told not to and agreeing that he wasn’t. If he was jumped from behind, it’s only because he improperly exposed himself to defensive actions by stalking. Hostilities of this type are not merely ended, simply by turning your back on the suspect. But, we have only his now worthless word that he did that. Obviously he has given his word before, and it turned out to be worthless!
        Why should this time be different? Now that someone is dead at his hands?

    • I agree with you. The screams heard on the tape don’t appear to be in response to someone else yelling a threat. I feel it’s likely it was Trayvon screaming for help. It sounds like someone cowering in fear for their life (because the person with a gun is threatening to shoot you) – then the shot is heard and the pleas stop.
      IMO the kid tried to look tough to Zimmerman because he was afraid of him. Given what we know from the girlfriend, if TM circled back around, it wasn’t on purpose to confront Zimmerman. But when they found each other again Trayvon probably puffed up, I know I would. And that caused Zimmerman to get further out of hand. I have confidence in this prosecutor and believe we’ll get an accurate picture soon.

      • Holy smokes…

        http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    • Holy crap…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

      • Thanks for this. This is what we’ve been waiting for. It was pretty obvious to me from just listening to the 911 tape that that wasn’t George Zimmerman’s voice wailing for help. Given what the screams said, it would then seem to be very likely that the gun was already pointed at Trayvon. He was screaming like he was because he thought he was going to be shot. Then the shot rang out, and silence.

        And if the voice analysis proves to be true, that also means that GZ is one big old bad liar, given that he tried to convince everyone that the screaming was him.

        Think of it this way too. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, if those wails were from my kid/brother or not. So how could all of the Zimmermans think it was their guy instead of Trayvon? Bad news all the way around.

        • “So how could all of the Zimmermans think it was their guy instead of Trayvon.”

          I suspect anything to fit their narrative. Ugh. If I was the family’s lawyer, I’d suggest they stop talking to the press…immediately!

46. Also, Zimmerman’s green t-shirt shown in the police video has no blood on the front of it that I can see. From his story it sounded like he was saying Trayvon had him on the ground beating the tar out of him and he pulled the gun and shot. With the person who is shot in the chest being on top of you wouldn’t you have blood from his wound on your shirt? Even if he fell off instantaneously after being shot? It’s all going to come out at the grand jury meeting and Zimmerman will stand trial.

    • Agreed. Thanks for the comments!

      • Still trying to figure out what position TM was in when he was shot in the chest that ended up with him landing face down. Unless GZ rolled TM over after shooting him. We have a witness who clearly states that after the shooting she went outside and saw GZ straddling TM. So that would put him on TM’s back. But the shot was to the chest. Still trying to figure this out. Anybody got insight into how this could be?

        • If I was Zimmerman (god, there’s nothing about me that’s even remotely Zimmerman), I would have flipped Trayvon over so I didn’t have to look at the suffering face of a kid I just shot.

          Note: This isn’t reported anywhere…at all. It’s not even what I’m speculating — I’m not sure how his body ended up face down. It’s just an observation.

      • Is it possible TM landed on his back and then rolled over face down? The police report says his hands were underneath his body ( gripping his chest?) when found at the scene of the crime. Eyewitness/es claim GZ was straddling him and was holding his hands on TM’s back, maybe assuming he was still moving before the police arrived. One lost minute with lots of questions to be answered! I would like to read the initial police report when GZ was questioned by SPD.

47. I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman flipped him over and pinned him from behind in a pseudo handcuff maneuver, since he appears to have studied police tactics. Then perhaps he realized there was no point in trying to subdue him since he was dead or dying. Just speculating. I just think one of the oddest things about any scenario we hear on this, is that he was face down. There has to be forensics regarding the blood spatter, and the distance of the gunshot. I’m very eager to hear the final reports on this because it still doesn’t add up.

    • Good point – he was playing cop the whole time…why not flip the “suspect” over and pin his arms behind his back like the show “Cops?” Ugh!

      I’m also DEFINITELY looking forward to the trial.

      • Tracy Martin said when he identified the body his son’e eyes were rolled back and he had a tear on his cheek. I agree Z may have rolled him over not able to take looking at his face. Also he may have been checking all of his pockets hoping to find a weapon. Plus didn’t the funeral director state there was a gun shot wound to the chest? No point of entry alluded to on his back

        • Did the funeral director really say no shot to the chest?!? Holy…

          • >Did the funeral director really say no shot to the chest?!? Holy…

            The funeral director said that, because of the autopsy, it was impossible to really determine much about the gunshot wound. It was possible to see that there were no injuries elsewhere, particularly to Martin’s hands.

            • Good, I’m just glad there WAS an autopsy on Trayvon. You never know with how things have been going so far for the Stanford Police Department.

48. Well, well, well…

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-audio-screams-were-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say

    • Just saw that too (and added it to the updates)! Holy F_CK!

      If this ends up being factually correct – it’s tough to doubt 2 independent experts – it’s CRAZY Zimmerman was deceiving/informed enough to know he had to claim he was crying for help because that’s what his victim was doing.

      • And he told police it was him on the tape. He even whined that nobody came to help him.

        Only one word comes to mind. Sociopath.

        • Yup!

      • Not just a sociopath, but one with something possible like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder hence all of his calls to the police. He wanted a perfect environment keeping all other people out of the way of his “perfect” neighbourhood. His gun toting is a symbol of his lack of manhood– his gun was his Freudian private part– IMO

49. “No Longer Mass Emailing”,

    I have put some thought to what may have happen prior to GZ’s 911 call.
    So, I listened and listened again the call and came to the conclusion that GZ spotted TM shortly prior to the call, then parked on twin trees ln expecting TM to come in view. While parked he placed his call to police.

    The first 45sec of the tape suggest what I’m claiming above:
    1) He places TM on Retreat View Cl,
    2) The he says: “He WORE jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes.”
    3) Finally, he says “He’s here NOW”..

    It tells me 2 things:
    1) GZ was parked on Twin Trees Ln in view of Retreat View Circle or the club house, and
    2) TM was actually walking on Retreat View Circle. This mean, he used another way to enter the gated community.

    So, I used google’s street view and realized the gated community isn’t fully walled. You can enter by foot from Oregon Ave.

    Finally, it places GZ’s truck right after the left curv of twin trees ln.

    • Interesting. I’ve heard suggestions that TM may have entered from the Northwest corner and not the “Front Gate” because that’s what everybody did coming from this direction. You’d think the wannabe cop, Zimmerman, would have mentioned this during his 911 call if he saw it though, right? Or, are you not suggesting GZ saw TM enter the gated community?

      Thoughts regarding the updated map below? I finally broke out the tape measure and stopwatch…ha!

      

      Next thing I want to figure out – what happened to the hoodie before/during/after the fight?!?

      • In my opinion, GZ’s green t shirt and TM’s grey hoodie are both identifiable as a “white t-shirt” from a distance. They are both light enough to be misidentified in the same way.

        What was he doing pinning down Trayvon after the shot? Keeping him from escaping still? Yes, I think he wasn’t sure how much the shot had done, and he jumped on Trayvon to keep him down, in case he fought back some more.

        Another thought. Why didn’t Trayvon call 911? Because ” get up, get down, 911 is a joke in my town”. Black communities typically don’t have a reasonable hope of protection from 911. I think, as someone else said, he was in touch with someone close he knew was at their phone, as a protectionary measure, in case something happened to him. He was scared.

        • Not in a snarky tone but I’m not sure how a darker green tshirt (covered by a red jacket) or grey hoodie could be confused for a white tshirt.

          I agree with the 2nd part though. And, nobody (other than Zimmerman) likes to overreact – especially “today’s kids.”

      • Trayvon’s entering from the nw corner makes alot of sense. If I were a teenager i would probably cut through there. Looks like the front gated car entrance also has a gate for pedestrians, don’t know if it’s kept unlocked or if you’d need a key. We know Trayvon didn’t have a key on him. Also to me it makes sense for him to have entered this way because it gave Trayvon more walking distance by homes along Retreat View Circle infront of the clubhouse to be observed by Zimmerman. In the 911 call Zimmerman said the guy was walking around looking at all the homes (which I don’t believe, Z said this to get the cops out there because he just knew he had a criminal on his hands). I wonder if Trayvon’s route he was planning to take home was to take a right off of Retreat View onto Twin Trees infront of the clubhouse and follow it around to where it intersects Retreat View Circle again and then he would hang a left and be feet from the frontdoor where he was staying. Maybe the reason Trayvon took the sidewalk that runs between the back of the townhomes (and where he was killed) because at this point he was trying to lose the guy in the truck who was stalking him. I don’t think Trayvon took the cutoff because he was going to enter the townhouse through the backdoor. And this is a big assumption. I just know at my house family members come in through the front door. Either way Trayvon entered the subdivision, it doesn’t really change thoughts and ideas of what happened after Z hung up from the 911 call. One thing you can surmise, Trayon didn’t know Z had exited his truck and was now looking for him on foot. Personally, I think Z surprised Trayvon by appearing infront of him on the sidewalk between buildings. Manslaughter with culpable negligence at the least.

      • No snark taken.

        It is a very faded, washed out forest green. A pastel, if you will. Color is not so much visible, as much as “shade” is. At a distance and in the twilight, people are seeing how light and dark things are.

        This is another aspect you can test out physically, maybe?

        • Great idea! I’ve got a medium dark blue shirt – I actually thought Zimmerman’s shirt looked like mine in the surveillance video – that I’ll test with my wife.

          I’ll go outside later today when it gets darker – maybe 30 feet away – and ask her to quickly describe the shirt as white, grey, or dark. She hasn’t followed the case at all and won’t know what I’m talking about (until I explain my “craziness” after the fact). I’ll post a picture of the shirt to the blog as well.

      • I think the simplest is that GM saw TM walking east on Retreat View toward the entrance while he was himself driving in that same direction.
        Then, GM decided to check on TM. So, he turned right on Twin Trees Ln, stopped his truck and called police while keeping an eye on the junction between Retreat View Cir and Twin Trees.

        That would obviously put GM’s truck closer to your original drawing. I’m sorry about that.

        I also believe, GM made a U-turn prior to stopping his truck. Else, he would have followed TM by car on Twin Tree Ln before chasing him on foot.

        I check again a photo from Fox Orlando news (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4) on which we can see the cops (Timothy is clearly there). In that photo, we can also see the curve on Twin Trees near the crime scene (the reporter was on Retreat View Cir). There is a white pick-up truck parked facing north. That truck looks the same as everyone can see from Googlemap sky view. Moreover, it is parked on exactly the same spot as on googlemap. So, that truck is probably not GZ’s. Moreover, I wouldn’t expect GZ’s truck to face north if he were following TM walking south from the club house.
        There is also another vehicle further away. That one isn’t a truck, it’s a sedan, and it’s parked on a drive way. Conclusion, GZ’s truck isn’t visible on Twin Trees Ln at the curve near the crime scene.

        • I’ll have to digest the above when I’m not “one eye shut” tired. Thanks (again) for the comment – excellent link!!!

    • Maybe GZ’s buddy,the former watch dog, saw TM coming and called ahead to GZ to be on the watch out. That would account for GZ’s wording and according to the map, the buddy had a good view of the cut thru route. Odd indeed how he described him and then saw him.I wonder if phone records were checked.
      I also wonder about why the blood on GZ’s head was trickling straight down or towards his face if he was on his back getting his head “bashed’ in. If he was on his back long enough to fear for his life seems as if the blood would have run to the back of his head

      • Thank you for the comment!

        Zimmerman’s phone records – specifically, a possible call from Taaffe around 7 pm – could be extremely damning. Unless, of course, Taaffe, Zimmerman, and others on the Neighborhood Watch used CB radios to communicate instead.

50. Refresh my memory on this detail. Doesn’t GZ say that after he was told not to follow, that he wason his way back to his car, but then went somewhere to get a cross street location?

    if I search “cross street”, I find it only in one story, the one from Fox.

    “WOFL got an exclusive interview with Zimmerman’s father Robert. Now, he says that his son followed Trayvon, so he could give police a cross street for his location. Here’s what his father says happened, next.

    ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S FATHER: He went to the next street, realized where he was and he was walking back to his vehicle. It’s my understanding that at that point Trayvon Martin walked up to him, asked him, do you have a (bleep) problem?

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-family-attorney-george-zimmerman-vigilante#ixzz1qnj9yx3s

    So it sounds like ZImmerman walked all the way across the top of the “T”, (Is there a street sign anywhere visible?) It doesn’t say he saw where he was but that he “realized” where he was.

    This still does not explain how the body is behind the 2nd house. Also draws in to question how could Trayvon approached him from behind?

    GZ has a problem with this part of the story. TM could NOT have come form behind, because GZ has just doubled back on his own path. Also the conversation DD hears on the phone call suggests a face to face encounter.

    • Yup. There was absolutely no reason to head south down that path when he was told to return to his car which was due west. There was no street sign. His car wasn’t in that direction. He was just trying to continue playing cop in my opinion. And, such stalking resulted in a teenager dying.

    • Z’s story of having to find a street sign so he knew where he was is a complete lie. I live in a subdivision about the same size, only we have one more street than what is in Z’s subdivision. Just from walking my dogs around (and I do this at night) I would know where I was at at any given time and wouldn’t have to find a street sign. This is just an excuse to cover why he was doing what he was doing. Z was such a go getter with this whole crime watch thing I am sure he knew that subdivision like the back of his hand.

      • It’s hard for me to imagine too but one thing’s for sure: Zimmerman wouldn’t be heading south on that path to find a street sign.

51. Maybe the altercation occurs at the top of the T and after Trayvon is shot, he attempts to go to the house with a light on to get them to call for help. He makes it in that direction but falls down face first in the grass. Zimmerman jumps on him to make sure he doesn’t get away. Trayvon dies.

    This would fit nicely for GZ, but it doesn’t fit the actual witness testimony that seems to see the men struggling on the ground and GZ seems to get up from TM after the shot and straddle TM.

    No one reports them moving location significantly in the struggle. But remember the walkthrough that GZ lead was within a day and it was videotaped. I hope we get to see that information.

    Most likely the Republican inm charge will bury it in a secret grand jury and declare the shooter in the right, because the truth in this case is not going to serve the Republican agenda.

    • Yeah – George Zimmerman’s walkthrough is key but, remember, he knows law VERY well and any walkthrough he conducted will cover his ass. The forensics, on the other hand, wont. I hope they did a thorough crime scene investigation/autopsy.

      Based on eyewitness accounts, it’s impossible for the fight to occur at the top of the T and then have bodies end up 25-50 south.

    • the school teacher heard angry voices; she wondered who would be out there when it’s pouring rain unless walking a dog. she saw a struggle about to start … “those men.” probably why the two women closet to the “T” didn’t hear scufflin; just whimpering–Tray’s last breaths. the women weren’t close enough to hear, but saw the end of it. straddling was at the end of it.

      i am wondering about the white tee & jon & reports of gun shot(s) from several callers.

52. The white t-shirt thing has me intrigued. What type of street lights, if any, is the place lite up with? I know that depending on what type of light, colors can be distorted at night. I had a red car once that looked silver under a street light I was parked under. Couldn’t find my car at first. Have the investigators taken the actual clothing both were wearing back out to the subdivision at night to see what colors they look like?

    • We can only hope they’ve done a full investigation. The prosecutor – Angela Corey – sounds tough (but at the same time it sounds like she’s in bed with the police way too often while being overly harsh on juveniles).

      http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0331/Prosecutor-in-Trayvon-Martin-case-known-as-tough

53. I am still amazed that GZ, a neighborhood watch captain who aspired to be a police officer and who has lived in this community, cannot give accurate directions or addresses. Some have said that GZ was under stress at the time he made the 911 call. My god, he was just sitting in his car talking to 911, trying to describe a person that he is watching. Look at the following and listen to the tape again.

    1) GZ says 111 Retreat View for the clubhouse address. The address is 1111. Even the police dispatcher questions the 111 number. Every address in that community is four digits.
    2) GZ cannot give clear concise directions for the police as to where he is and the route they need to take. Listen to the tape. He stumbles, repeats himself, says uh, cannot tell the dispatcher how to enter the complex. Turn left, no go staight ect ect. He lives here and patrols here but cannot give directions.
    3) Now his father says that GZ did not know where he was and needed to find a cross street.

    I still say that this guy was either on something at the time he made this call or has an impairment.

    • It’s fairly obvious – the 50ish calls to 911 over the past few years and his demeanor on this call (E.g. He doesn’t want somebody hiding nearby to hear his address as if they’d remember it) – that Zimmerman is a paranoid dude.

    • Honestly, I thought the same thing when I heard him talking. I thought he was slow and then when he described how TM was checking him out and coming towards him I sensed he was really scared. When I researched more and was able to see the ariel view I was floored. I really think this guys has a screw loose, his defense might want to consider a mental evaluation, it may actually save his ass.

      • I should hope a psychiatrist will evaluate him. I also noticed he does not sound college educated. He sounded flat, depressed like. Mind you his father was a magistrate and he also didn’t sound too intelligent. Someone needs to look at the family life. Also there was an article that Zimmerman used to work as a security guard for parties and was fired bc he flew of the handle, and hurt a woman’s ankle by throwing her out of the party as she had become rambunctious after drinking. Anyone else read that?

        • I’ve definitely read/heard that Zimmerman did party security (we used to just do that ourselves in the 90s, right) before being fired because he’d “snap.”

54. Here is the view of the crime scene: http://g.co/maps/k7ntk

    • Zimmerman’s truck’s location (at 1111 Retreat View Circle) and the scene of the shooting (at the northern most part of the T) are grossly incorrect in this map.

      Zimmerman’s parked truck (per my the calculations that I’ve noted in the posting above) and scene of the shooting (per the 911 calls/eyewitness accounts) can be seen here:

      

      • Yes, agreed. What I was trying to capture there, which didn’t transfer with the link, was a Google street view from S. Oregon Ave, peering between the town homes, you can see clear through to the walkway wehre ZImmerman would have been, although, not extremely clearly, but it gives an idea of perspective.

        Based on locations, here is what I now hink is a likely version of the locations:
        Trayvon initially escapes by coming around the edge of the first town home and waits there to see if Zimmerman is really going as far as to chase him that far. Someone is maybe chasing you, its kind of off putting, it would be hard to believe. Trayvon is wondering what is going on whis crazy fool, so he is just right there out of view to see if this guy is really coming after him. He is stil on telephone, he’s talking to his girl. He thinks maybe he escaped, and for the moment he has.

        Then Zimmerman gets through with the locations part of the 911 call and keeps pursuing his perp.

        The face to face is as ZImmerman comes around the corner, near the T, but a little south, where Trayvon is resting and talking.

        The confrontation, which consistes of a conversation, ensues here, at the T, but just down the stem, behind the corner of the first house.

        Trayvon tries to explain himself, but Zimmerman already has a whole profile built in his imagination, so he agressively denies the explanation. THis is the argument people heatr. Trayvon moves to escape towards home, Zimmerman rushes him, and the scuffle lands in the grass with Trayvon doing now the next best thing he is able, Yelling for help, and trying to fend off his attacker.

        From this point, we are in a fight, and we have no idea if Trayvon is murdered straight out, or if he starts winning the fight, and then gets murdered. Most likely, neither man not child had a true ill preconceived intention, and it is the result of a situation perceived and forced by Zimmerman’s psychosis. He didn’t set out to kill Trayvon, but the situation he created got out of contriol, and he became a murderer.

        This whole idea of fear that he needs to need to defend himself from, is entirely of his own creation and forced onto the victim.

        • I’m at a loss when it comes to thinking about how/why the confrontation began. Meaning, there are so many different angles you can take that it’s truly mind numbing. But, I see what you’re saying. My goal/hope is to prove whether Zimmerman was attacked from behind as he was returning to his truck or if he continued pursuing/stalking Trayvon when he was told not to.

          With the data/info I’ve gathered, I see absolutely no way Zimmerman was attacked from behind while returning to his vehicle. It’s not possible. As the 911 call ended, his truck was parked due west but confrontation/shooting happened southwest of his location.

          There was no reason for Zimmerman to go south unless he was continuing to pursue/stalk Trayvon – something he was obviously told not to do. Moreover, if Zimmerman headed south – as he must have per the data I’ve gathered – Stand Your Ground is no longer applicable.

55. I believe GZ is mentally unstable and a sociopath. I believe all the things he claimed TM said to him were actually the things HE said to TM. You gon die tonight, you got a problem homie etc. etc. He is so sick he believes what he is saying is true. TM was hollering not GZ.

    • I’m not an expert profiler, but I agree.

      • I also agree.

56. Great blog. My 2c. True, gap exists when TM could have gone home. But he was under no obligation. Plus ditching cops or toy-cops is legal prior to confrontation. Plus toy-cops do not have any real power. Think this will legally turn into a fight. Likely starting with jostling by somebody. But people are individually responsible for heating up. And what the screams indicate is that Trayvon tapped out. No Mas. No Mas. At this point both parties have a duty to flee. And both parties are responsible for consequences. Meaning minimum manslaughter. Max is murder one. Issue is akin to dueling equals murder. Where somebody would egg somebody into a fight to kill them. At any point during the 40 seconds of cries Z could have backed out. But he chose aggressiveness. And clearly TMs cries indicate he would have willingly parted and called it a draw. Except for Z. This means Z is toast.

    • Thank you. And, excellent points – thanks for the comment!

57. The issue I have lies with “the white t-shirt.” I realize that in rainy, street light darkness “grey” or “green” can be mistaken for white. However, I find it hard to believe that anyone could mistake a grey “long-sleeve” hoodie sweater, for a “short-sleeve” t-shirt of any color.

    • Yup, a white t-shirt doesn’t make sense. Zimmerman obviously wasn’t wearing one (per the police surveillance video). Maybe Trayvon was but where did the hoodie go then?

    • I agree that the white t-shirt detail is troubling.

      GZ says TM wears a DARK gray hoodie. He later says that TM has button on his shirt. It’s not clear to me whether the shirt is the hoodie or the hoodie is open revealing a shirt with buttons on it.
      Finally, police report says the dead TM has a gray sweater.
      Nevertheless, I’m not sure if we can really confuse a DARK hoodie with a white shirt.

      Transcript of GZ’s call:

      911 dispatcher:
      Did you see what he was wearing?
      Zimmerman:
      Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00’42”]
      911 dispatcher:
      He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
      Zimmerman:
      Now he’s staring at me. [00’48”]
      911 dispatcher:
      OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
      Zimmerman:
      That’s the clubhouse.
      911 dispatcher:
      He’s near the clubhouse now?
      Audible windshield wiper: [1’00”]
      Zimmerman:
      Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
      And he’s a black male.[1’03”]
      911 dispatcher:
      How old would you say he is?
      Zimmerman:
      He’s got button on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.
      911 dispatcher:
      Late teens?
      Audible windshield wiper: [1’16”]

      • Check out this updated map with timing from the 911 call…

        

        Thoughts?

      • This is indeed a possible scenario. But, it doesn’t explain how GZ would have caught up on TM and how the confrontation ends up so close to the starting point 4-5min after the chase started .

        • Agreed – I can’t even imagine how/why the confrontation began where it began.

          My goal from the outset on March 27th was to either prove or disprove that Zimmerman was attacked from behind by Trayvon as he was returning to his truck.

          In this scenario – and almost every other scenario I’ve dreamt up online/offline – that’s 100% impossible. And, of course, providing false information (seemingly a recurring theme in this case so far) is a crime.

      • If he saw Martin heading out of the community and thought he was a burglar, why would he expect him to return?

58. I like the new map as it seems to really piece things together. One thing that troubles me is the statement made by TM’s girlfriend. She said that TM claimed that someone was following him ). If GZ was parked where you show on the updated map, he wouldn’t have covered enough ground in his truck for TM to assume that he was following him especially if he stayed parked the entire time until TM passed him (assuming TM kept straight to take the path between the townhomes). I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that GZ exited the subdivision initially and made a u-turn once he saw TM walking towards the homes. Another issue that blows my mind is that GZ claimed that he was on his way to Target when he spotted TM. I’m not sure where GZ lives but the video located here

    :http://blog.reidreport.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-a-walk-through-of-the-shooting-scene/

    claims that GZ lived in the Southwest corner of the Map. If we are to assume that he was going to Target and was taking the quickest route to the front gate, I don’t understand how he could suddenly be parked on the opposite end of the complex unless he chose to take the scenic route. This statement could also be a cover to protect the HOA since it would make it appear that GZ was not on duty at the time of the murder. We can all assume that at some point, a civil case will be filed against the HOA for a wrongful death suit since local watchmen aren’t authorized to carry guns.

    Lastly, GZ’s father said that GZ thought TM looked suspicious because he was walking behind the townhomes. If this statement is true, how could GZ call the police minutes before TM got behind the town homes unless we are talking about another set of townhomes. Even TMs father said that his son may have cut through a hole in the fence or something along those lines.

    I personally think that there wasn’t really too much a fight. I think that GZ tried to forcefully detain TM until police arrived but TM tried to get free. At some point GZ got frustrated and shot TM since his screaming was drawing too much attention. He even admitted that he thought the whole incident would blow over. He thought that TM would turn out to be the person burglarizing all the homes and I’m sure GZ was expecting to get a medal and a parade thrown for him.

    • The text analysis I eventually add below the new map – I’m seriously done thinking about Zimmerman for a few hours (ha) – will address some of what you mention. Thank you!

      My analysis will also ask some important questions that I’m struggling with like: “Why did Trayvon run when he did around the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call?”

      If my new map is correct, Zimmerman was still in his parked truck facing west by the cut through, watching Trayvon in his rearview mirrors, talking to 911 about how “these assholes always get away,” giving absolutely HORRIBLE directions to his location, and then Trayvon runs.

      So, what made Trayvon run around the 2:08 mark? Rain? Was he sick/scared of being stalked by Zimmerman? And, by sick/scared of being stalked, I don’t mean the first time Trayvon noticed Zimmerman was when he was leaving the clubhouse’s awning at the beginning of Zimmerman’s 911 call. Trayvon wouldn’t be sick/scared of Zimmerman watching him if the only time they saw each other was from :01 – 1:30 of Zimmerman’s 911 call. I sort of make this point in my original posting but that seems like years (and a few maps) ago.

      George Zimmerman’s residence is located at 1950 Retreat View Circle. So, you’re correct – the southwest portion of the gated community. The closest Target is northwest of the gated community. Zimmerman would have taken Oregon Ave west, Reinhart Rd southwest, and then Towne Center Blvd north to get to Target. To get to 7/11, Martin would have been going west on Oregon Ave and then southwest on Reinhart Rd. We can all figure out their return directions to the gated community. 🙂 Hint: They were taking the same paths to/from their destinations of 7/11 and Target.

      • Thanks for explaining the route that Zimmerman could have took to Target. It really clears up how he would have come into contact with TM. I hope that by chance there is a traffic cam or other security camera pointed towards the front of the complex so we could see if GZ left and came back or maybe we could learn something else. I look forward to reading your updated analysis!

      • What made TM run at 2’08!!!
        GZ’s gun is the best answer I can get.

        Here is my tanscript of GZ’s call:

        #############################
        Zimmerman: Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00’42”]

        911 dispatcher: He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

        Zimmerman: Now he’s staring at me. [00’48”]

        911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

        Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse.

        911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now?

        Audible windshield wiper: [1’00”]

        Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1’03”]

        911 dispatcher: How old would you say he is?

        Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt. About like he’s late teens.

        911 dispatcher: Late teens?

        Audible windshield wiper: [1’16”]

        Zimmerman: Uh, huh. Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01’20”]

        911 dispatcher: Let me know if he does anything, OK?

        Zimmerman: OK.

        911 dispatcher: We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

        Zimmerman: OK. [1’34”]

        {Barely audible comment sounding like: Thanks god?!?}[1’34”]

        {Unidentified background noise indicating GZ moves or moves something}

        Zimmerman: These assholes. They always get away. [1’39”] When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse.

        911 dispatcher: OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

        Zimmerman: Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left. Shit he’s running. [2’07”]

        #########################

        Here is what I understand about what is going on.

        GZ sounds nervous when TM starts walking toward him. TM really think he comes for him (“he’s coming to check me out.”, “I don’t know what his deal is”). On top of that TM has something in his hands, something is wrong with him.

        The dispatcher realizes that GZ is nervous and tries to reassure him (We’ve got him on the wire. JUST let me know if this guy does anything else.).

        But still, GZ is alone in his truck, in the street, in the night and police is probably minutes away while TM is right in front of him (he can see the buttons on his shirt).

        So, GZ search his car for his gun. According to the SPD leak, GZ was going shopping. So, he didn’t have his gun on him. Listen at the 1’34” mark. You can barely hear what GZ is saying. It seems to me he says “Thanks God”. Then, there is that noise that I couldn’t identify [HELP] as if GZ is shuffling/moving stuff around.

        It might be that TM saw GZ’s gun and ran.

        And GZ felt empowered and chased him.

        I would love to be able to

        • Hmmmm – interesting.

          I also wonder what the noises are around the 2:42, 2:46, 2:52, 3:03 (he’s definitely not paying attention to the operator at this mark), 3:08 (ditto), and 3:36 marks.

        • Adds: Zimmerman said, “He’s at the clubhouse.” at the :55 mark right before saying “Yeah, now he’s coming towards me.” at the :58 mark.

      • I went too far yesterday when I claimed TM saw the gun.
        It still makes sense that GZ took his gun with him at the moment I was explaining.

        Yes at the 55″ mark, TM is still near the club house.

        In fact, at the 42″ mark, TM came in view of GZ. Which means GZ was waiting for him. GZ saw TM when driving on Retreat View Cir toward the north entrance to go shopping and knew TM was walking in that same direction. So, he was expecting TM to get by the club house any moment. This is also why he chose to park where he parked. I believe it is right at the curve on Twin trees Ln.

        At the 48″ mark, GZ says “Now he’s staring at me”. This is the moment TM wonders “Isn’t it that same truck that passed by moment ago? Wasn’t that dude staring at me?”

        At the 1’00” mark GZ says “Yeah, now he’s coming toward me.”. That suggests TM paused (stop walking) when he noticed GZ was parked waiting for him. Then he resumed walking keeping GZ in sight and running if he passes GZ’s truck unhurt.

        At the 1’39” mark GZ says “These assholes. They always get away.”. I believe this is the moment TM passed GZ. Second before, GZ really sounded unsecured. Then suddenly at that 1’39” mark, he sounds more assertive in his “These assholes” comment.

        At the 2’07” mark TM starts running. I don’t know what made him run all of the sudden. Maybe, I had in view a hide out he could go. Maybe, GZ started following TM by car (I tried getting evidences of this from background noise but failed so far). I thought TM saw GZ’s gun, but now I realize he should have ran earlier and he may have called 911 rather than GF, or at least mentioned it to F as it would be a big thing.

        At mark 2’19”, GZ starts chasing TM on foot (wind noise).

        At mark 2’37”, GZ says “He ran” then stops running TM (no more wind noise). He realizes he has no idea of what path TM may have taken.

        At mark 3’40”, GZ says “It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible]” showing that he thinks TM maybe near him. it also shows he is scared to some level.

        At mark 3’43”, GZ says agrees with dispatcher about meeting at mailboxes.

        At mark 3’49”, GZ suddenly changes his mind (he interrupts the dispatcher) and ask for being called when the officer arrives so he can give his position. Something made him decide not to go back to his truck.

        At mark 4’11”, the call is ended. It is 7pm 13min & 45sec.

        Thanks for the list of marks to listen. Apparently there are more background noises to be understood.

      • I listened to the time marks you were pointing out. I have always assumed these are from the dispatcher typing on a keyboard.

        • That could be right. I didn’t really hear the noises throughout the call but I’m not sure what else it could be other than the operator’s keystrokes.

    • TM’s father said he came through the gate. See video of his walk through above.

      • I think Tracy Martin was assuming Trayvon entered at the gated “Front Entrance.” Regardless of where or how Trayvon entered the gated community, he was AT the clubhouse at the :55 mark of Zimmerman’s 911 call.

59. Excellent analysis with good comments. Looking forward to see how all the evidence gathered will be used and reasoned upon.

    Trayvon did not deserve this horrible last few moments of his precious life. Whenever I hear that recording of his screams, it breaks my heart. Let justice prevail!

    • Thank you – I truly appreciate the comment!

      I agree – what a horrible way to go out. RIP

60. Perhapsim2right…back…bringing conservatism to a troubled world…expect posts, expect discussion, expect dissention to otherwise WRONG comments…Moral of the story, if you come to a neighborhood to steal/cause havoc where the 2nd ammendment is alive and well, you will be dealt with accordingly. Long live the Bill of Rights.

    • Welcome back, Ryan THE Conservative!

    • In that world, is it possible to walk back home and stay alive?

61. You’ve got it close, but not quite right, on the early part of the call. Martin clearly entered the neighborhood from the northwest corner. For Zimmerman to have seen him at that point (which he must have, due to the timing on the call), Zimmerman had to be at the intersection. He backed up around the bend while he was saying that they “always get away”.

    I have the whole timeline down to the second on the clock.

    http://www.logarchism.com/2012/04/02/trayvon-martin-timeline-of-february-26/

    • Thank you for the comment!

      I like the time/energy/effort you’ve put into the blog posting but it’s confusing. Why was Zimmerman parked just east of the clubhouse facing north if he left his home (southwest most portion of the gated community) for a trip to Target? The logical route is to head north on Retreat Circle View until it goes east. Once he gets to the clubhouse, he’d turn left (north) to exit through the “Front Entrance.”

      I don’t claim to know how/why Zimmerman ended up parked at my location facing west near a cut through looking at Trayvon duck under the clubhouse’s awning right before he called 911 but the timing referenced here makes absolute sense…

      

      Maybe spell out the timing/locations in a comment without your analysis/screenshots and I’ll be able to comprehend it a little bit better.

      • I’m pretty certain that GZ’s story about going to Target was bull and he probably was out patrolling the neighborhood. That would be the only explanation as to why he was east of the entrance when he spotted TM. I mean come on, gas is over 4 bucks and he drives a truck. Why else would he take the scenic route? If he said that he was on patrol and armed, it would reflect the community in a bad light since they appointed him and even listed his number as a contact for suspicious incidents. He is trying to make it seem that he wasn’t patrolling and just bumped into TM by chance. I read somewhere that he made his wife dinner and needed to run around the corner to grab something from Target. He must live in a bad neighborhood if he can’t even go around the corner without a gun. I also wonder what sort of holster he had. In the police video, he had his shirt tucked in his pants. If his shirt was tucked in at the scene, you could probably see his holster/gun from a mile away. Who goes to Target like that?

        Despite what the media is saying, I do not believe that GZ is racist. Blacks have portrayed themselves in a bad light over the years but it seems like most blacks want to overlook it. I’m black myself but it sickens me when I see blacks with crazy face tattoos, sagging pants, and nasty attitudes. I recently saw a black man curse out his 3 year old and call him a MF just because he wouldn’t be quiet and it made me sick to my stomach. I think Geraldo’s comment about hoodies was in poor taste but the underlying message was that some blacks try to portray themselves as aggressive, gangster, and pimps. GZ said that TM had his hand in his pants so I’m almost positive that TM was sagging while walking. Did TM deserve to die that night? Hell to the no! I do believe that GZ was overzealous and unfairly associated TM with the other blacks who were burglarizing the homes. Unfortunately, his assumptions were wrong and he took a innocent boys life.

        • Gun owners take their guns everywhere. It’s a weird obsession. He needed to conceal the gun though so there probably wasn’t anything in plain site.

          The “fucking coons” comment and all the 911 calls reporting suspicious black individuals makes me believe there’s a little bit of racism in George’s heart.

      • Yea the coon’s part is a bit scary. I probably would have felt better if he just used the N word. I hope the truth is exposed either way!

      • The distance going straight up Retreat View versus going right on Long Oak and left on Twin Trees is actually almost identical, because of the way that Retreat View curves west before turning right. It’s basically a wash.

        So, here’s how the timings work:
        For the first minute, he’s on Twin Trees on the south side of the intersection with Retreat View. Martin is walking east on Retreat View from the point where Retreat View bends to the southwest (i.e., right near the cut where he entered The Retreat). It takes most of a minute at a normal pace to reach the clubhouse, so that matches with the timing if Zimmerman called right after spotting Martin popping out from the shadows of the west end of the third building on the north side of Retreat View (counting from the main entrance).

        Martin stops in front of the main entrance to the clubhouse, on Retreat View. He stares at Zimmerman for a few seconds, then continues on his way, in a path that takes him near the SUV. As Martin continues heading to the east on Twin Trees, he passes out of Zimmerman’s line of sight, because the view is blocked by the westernmost building in that block. That’s when Zimmerman backs his truck up around the corner to around where you put the blue rectangle.

        Martin realizes he’s being followed, and starts to run. I think he’s starting his run a bit to the west of where you show him, though.

        • Does he back his truck up during the call?!? At which point?

          And, as mentioned below…

          When Zimmerman calls 911, I have him identifying Trayvon ducking under the awning at the clubhouse and – in his opinion – looking suspicious.

          How/why do you have Zimmerman identifying Trayvon all the way down Retreat View Circle in your scenario?

          How dark was it? Could Zimmerman see the 400-500 feet – or whatever it was – in the rain at 7:10 pm without the aid of his headlights shining west in your scenario?

          What cut through is Zimmerman by in your parked truck scenario?

          Why wouldn’t Zimmerman say I am AT 1111 Retreat View Circle – right next to the clubhouse – in your scenario?

    • Also, how do we know George left home at 7:09ish pm for Target? I have seen chatter that he was – at some point that night – taking a trip to Target but I haven’t seen anything that said he left home at 7:09ish pm.

      • In answer to both questions:
        First, I agree that I would have expected him to go straight up Retreat View. But he couldn’t have done so if Martin was heading east and the rest of his description on the call was accurate. He had to have been going north on Twin Trees. Maybe he wanted to stop by the mailboxes for something? Drop off an outgoing letter, perhaps?

        Second, how do we know that he left at 7:09ish? Because his call to the police department began at 7:09:34. If I had to guess the exact time he pulled out of his garage, it’s probably 7:08:15-30.

        • When Zimmerman calls 911, I have him identifying Trayvon ducking under the awning at the clubhouse and – in his opinion – looking suspicious.

          How/why do you have Zimmerman identifying Trayvon all the way down Retreat View Circle in your scenario?

          How dark was it? Could Zimmerman see the 400-500 feet – or whatever it was – in the rain at 7:10 pm without the aid of his headlights shining west in your scenario?

          What cut through is Zimmerman by in your parked truck scenario?

          Why wouldn’t Zimmerman say I am AT 1111 Retreat View Circle Drive – right next to the clubhouse – in your scenario?

          Your timing of his trip to Target is speculation in my opinion. Maybe he went at 6:30 pm? 7-11 is on the way to/from Target. Did they cross paths before both returned to the gated community after 7 pm?

62. So many people are saying things about situations as though they have zero experience or knowledge of them.
    Just for example, 1.” a small guy can’t beat up a larger guy” . Ask anyone who has been in a number of street fights or any cop, they’ll tell you a completely different story. I personally know of two cops who ended up in a hospital after being assaulted by a 15 yr old and a 16 yr old. 2. Trayvon was shot so “there had to be a lot of blood.” I have witnessed two shootings. There was no blood on the mens shirts in either case. I had to lift the shirts to actually see the bullet holes. One walked into a gas station and collapsed; don’t know what eventually happened to him. 3. “People don’t just hit others for no reason” Again, ask any cop. They will tell you it happens ALL the time. People do strange things. We will see it all play out in court if Zimmerman is even charged. Whether you like the gun laws or not, they are in place and must be enforced.

    • 1) A small guy can definitely beat up a big guy. A big guy can definitely beat up a small guy. I’ll guess – it’s only a guess – that I 17 year old, 140 pound kid is probably not actively looking to fight a 28 year old, 200 pound adult.

      2) Shoot somebody in the chest, but not a direct shot to the heart, and they’ll suffer/move around for a bit. If he died immediately – as almost all the 911 callers assume – the shot was to the heart. If the shot was to the heart, there was going to be an insane amount of blood.

      3) If Trayvon hit him, it was because Zimmerman was STALKING. In fact, I hope – but doubt – Trayvon whopped his ass a little bit.

      • And here is the problem with the confessed killer’s story, too many improbable things have to happen all in a very tight and contained time. Sure, a small guy can beat a big guy. In most match-ups between a big guy and small guy, the big guy wins…coulda woulda shoulda.

        When someone is shot, the majority of time, there is a blood that is visible. coulda woulda shoulda.

        So, Zimmerman and others expect you to believe that at least 10 things that are generally that either have a low probability of happening or next to impossible ALL happened on that night. One or two flukes, sure but his entire scenario is full of flukes.

        Equals a big ole like made out of whole clothe to me.

        • All that matters is the fact that Zimmerman stalked, harassed, preyed upon and eventually killed his unarmed neighbor who was retuning home with snacks.

          But, I know what you’re saying.

63. Pingback: Construct your theory in the Zimmerman Martin case - Page 11

64. interesting blog. I have a scenario i haven’t heard considered yet. read the whole thing. gz didn’t know tm was from neighborhood so he wouldn’t have thought he’d turn south between the houses, or that he’d go on to retreat circle and go south. more likely scenario is that gz would think he’d go to ne corner of community to hop over wall to get out and away (wall really low as google maps photo shows). if he thought this, he’d know he’d never catch him, possible he got back in vehicle and went past clubhouse and turned right on retreat view circle. when he didn’t see kid at corner figured he was still between houses, parked suv and went between houses, heading north looking for kid. makes sense he’d have gun out if he’s heading into dark area, especially if he thinks kid is armed. tm was probably waiting for pursuer to leave, then when all is quiet, heads south between houses. gz headed north and altercation occurs

    • markstrek1. was this comment for me about being biased? No, I’m white. logic doesn’t know a color.

    • Does anyone know how tall the wall or fence was he would have to go over?

65. Good thing you’re not biased.

    Let me guess: You’re black.

    • Me? I’m the whitest person you’ll ever meet.

66. I might have missed this in your updates, but the previous reports of GZ and TM’s height/weight are a bit off.

    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/george-zimmerman-weighs-170-trayvon-martin-160

    According to the site in the link, George Zimmerman’s height is 5’9″ and he weighs 170. It’s true that he did weigh more during a previous arrest, but that was years ago.

    Trayvon Martin’s height is reported to be at least 6 feet; his family claims he was 6’2″. His weight was 160.

    So George Zimmerman wasn’t some guy who had about 100 lb on some cherub-faced kid–they were more closely matched in weight; with Treyvon at least 3, possibly 5 inches taller–depending on the report of height.

    Just don’t think I’m taking GZ’s side–I believe his use of lethal force was excessive. If he really felt the need to shoot someone…why not the kneecaps? Shooting in the air can also frighten someone to run away. Also, he’s known for flying off the handle. It would certainly suck to be GZ now because I feel he’ll be under arrest soon–but I’d prefer jail to the impending lynch mob.

    • Excellent points – thanks for the comment!

      If Zimmerman was one blow away from wearing diapers and being spoon fed the rest of his life like Robert Zimmerman suggested to Piers Morgan, why was the ambulance coming for him called off?

67. For those who want to know how dark it was have a look at this link,
    

    • Looks like he’d need headlights to see Trayvon leaving the clubhouse’s awnings from hundreds of feet away, eh? Truck pointing west towards the clubhouse in the most recent map from 4/2.

      • Sunset that day was at approximately 6:23 pm. So may not have been at the height of darkness but with light rain could have been.

        • Excellent info – thanks for the comment(s)!

        • From here…

          http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090329174229AAXxR8K

          You can check when sunset and the end of civil twilight is any day of any year at this site:

          http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php

68. Ok, lets go with the scenario that TM was staking out some potential homes to burglarize. GZ seeing him as he is leaving for Target, he begins to watch him. TM sees GZ watching him and runs. GZ “These assholes always get away”, 911 “Are you following him?”, GZ “Yes”, 911 “We (Meaning Trained Law Enforcement as a whole) don’t NEED you to do that”, GZ “OK” as he exits his truck “Fucking Coons”! Then GZ tells 911 “Just have them (Police) call me and I will tell them my location”. Right there you have proven RACISM and RACIAL PROFILING, and I think we can all come to a logical conclusion that GZ intended to apprehend TM till the authorities arrived.

    My Point is, do you all really think that GZ does not harbor some stereotypical racism? Do you all really believe he was just looking for an address when he left his car? And if you have enough common sense to see he was going after TM do you really think he would do so without his gun drawn? My other point is, do you all think that even if TM “was up to something, or high” that gives GZ the right to apprehend him and kill him for resisting?

    I have been pretty obsessed with this case as I can see many of you have too but I really have been trying to find a way to justify what GZ has done and I can’t. As a matter of fact I initially though this would be a negligent manslaughter case WHEN he is arrested, but the more I read, research, and hear UNEDITED 911 calls, I have come to the conclusion that this is at the least 2nd degree murder, but really it should be a hate crime. GZ is an obsessed weirdo and I am sure when this goes to trial we will be hearing a lot more sordid stories about poor GZ!

    Another thing, TM was no gangster. TM may have been a rebellious teen going through what many of US have been through but I must say his parents (although divorced) seem to be co-parenting, from the pictures TM looked well dressed and might I add not in urban attire or the baggy, saggy cloths we all associate with young black gang members, he was raised playing football, went to aviation school, and might I add look pretty comfortable on a horse! Maybe some of you should survey some of these young black gang members and ask how many of them have parents that co-parent, play football, have active fathers in their lives, and ride horses.

    Come on people if you can not see what is right in your face, maybe it’s time you come to the realization that you are defending GZ because you too think the way GZ did that faithful day!

    • Good points and I don’t disagree. Thanks for the comment(s)!

      So, even IF Trayvon was on something, that doesn’t give Zimmerman the right to stalk/execute the teen especially after the mad man was told to basically cut it out.

      • This whole thing played out within minutes. GZ, being a grown man and neighborhood watch CAPTAIN should be held to a higher standard than TM on how to conduct himself in this situation. I have no doubt that TM felt threatened and when he realized GZ had a gun [in is holster or in his hand) he was fighting for his life!

        GET REAL PEOPLE!

        P.S. Although my heart goes out to both of TM parents, I can only imagine how his Father must feel. He was just trying to get home!

    • Great assessment Ms. Nila. Right on point.

69. How about this scenario:

    As TM passes GZ (sitting in his truck) walking home:

    GZ: Hi, how are you? Sorry to bother you but I am the neighborhood watch captain, it is kind of dangerous walking through here at night, do you live close by?

    TM: Yes

    GZ: Ok, be careful because there have been a lot burglaries in the neighborhood, do you live close by?

    TM: Yes

    GZ: Ok, good. BTW my name is George, what’s your Name?

    TM: Trayvon

    GZ: Where exactly do you live?

    TM: Tells him where

    GZ: Ok, have a good night

    *GM thought TM was running to exit the community and get away, this scenario would have let him know that TM actually lived there!

    *As you can see I have answered for TM not to speculate as to what he would say, but if he had been defiant than I could see GZ calling 911 but still WAIT IN THE CAR!

    • Excellent!!!

    • Exactly. That is what you do when you respect the dignity and humanity of the other person.

70. Zimmerman was having his skull beat into a concrete sidewalk and was screaming for HELP. Like me, if I had a gun, he shot the man who was out of control, to protect his life.

    • Doug,

      You must have missed the last paragraph here regarding the “severity” of Zimmerman’s injuries…

      http://m.gawker.com/5898036/new-evidence-contradicts-zimmermans-claim-of-a-violent-fight-with-trayvon-martin

      And, you must have missed this too…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    • Doug,

      Your assumption is that GZ kindly identified himself to TM and his weapon was not drawn I take it. No, He profiled, stalked, followed and confronted TM to subdue him till the police called his cell phone to get his location.

      So in that case it is safe to assume that you think the following:

      GZ found TM and politely told him to wait for police and TM attacked him.

      Or is it more logical that GZ aggressively tried to subdue TM and logically he would have his weapon drawn otherwise why even carry a weapon while patrolling the community in the first place. TM not having time to beg a stranger not to shoot him, feared for his life and therefore “STOOD HIS GROUND”

      Doug, you are TEAM GZ because you harbor the same bias racial feelings GZ does. I could respect your opinion more if you admitted that in your post!

      One thing that is not disputed here:

      TM was on his way home from the store, not staking out the community for some criminal activity!

    • And before you or anyone else assumes or have enough nerve to ask:

      I am a white 47 year old, college educated women.

    • There isn’t much evidence of a severe beating of GZ by TM.

      Actually, an ambulance planned to bring GZ to Hospital has been cancelled (The audio of the cancellation has been made public recently).

      Basically, officer Ricardo Ayala placed GZ in his vehicle, Sanford FD took care of him in there and decided he had nothing justifying an hospitalization. So, the ambulance has been cancelled.

      The scuffle is heard for more than 40sec. Factoring in the time it took for witness to call 911, we can imagine the fight took 1min or more. It seems clear to me TM was on top of GZ at some point during that fight. Yet, during that minute all he did to GZ was superficial.

      Finally, there is no evidence of any sort about who’s the aggressor, and if the aggressor was threatening the life of his victim. My personal opinion is that stalking someone is a form of aggression. TM has no reason to feel safe with GZ chasing him in the streets by night.

      • Just adding the link to the ambulance cancellation story.
        

      • Confirmed in the last paragraph here…

        http://m.gawker.com/5898036/new-evidence-contradicts-zimmermans-claim-of-a-violent-fight-with-trayvon-martin

71. Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as

    1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable “heat of passion”

    or

    2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

    Hate Crime

    In crime and law, hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group, usually defined by racial group, religion, sexual orientation, disability, class, ethnicity, nationality, age, sex, gender identity, social status or political affiliation.[1]
    A hate crime is a category used to described bias-motivated violence: “assault, injury, and murder on the basis of certain personal characteristics: different appearance, different color, different nationality, different language, different religion.

72. Applaud your effort to try to use a diagram and updated full tape. Clearly Z’s truck is parked at or near the curve approx 20-30 yds from the point where fight happens based off this tape, (I’ll explain). Z is following instructions of the ofc as he begins to report what T is doing. The from the 2:08 point when T runs it is pretty obvious he went around the corner towards his house as Z said he headed towards the back exit. It is unclear how far he went though as Z lost sight of him.

    2:12 you can hear truck door open as the ofc asks him which way he is running. (means two things up until that point he is sitting in his truck not following and he is responding to the ofc question by getting out) I submit to you the length of one of those bldgs could easily have been passed in the 20 or so sec at a jog that pass before the ofc realizes he is following and said they didn’t need that. That doesn’t mean Z would have dis-obeyed instructions. It also doesn’t make T a criminal.

    Z remains on the phone explaining locations etc from 2:32 to 4:12 mark. Z is breathing hard through his nose at first then voice returns under control quickly so he wasn’t running too hard. He appears to have stopped as he responds to the ofc’s questions.

    Z tells the ofc his truck is parked at a cut through which is where he would have exited. This would place the vehicle at the curve and on the trail leading to the L past the spot of the fight. 911 calls begin approx 1 min after he hangs up. This gives Z approx 1/2 a minute to walk up the path to the point of the fight.

    (T could have ducked in anywhere along the path out of the rain Z may have even jogged past him.)

    Gf stmts indicate Treyvon initiated the contact verbally Z replies and scuffle ensues. We haven’t seen the stmt yet but this is also seems to have been Z’s stmt.

    The most relevant part of the story is below:

    From the recent pictures of the back of Z’s head it does look to have trauma. You can assume there will be much better pictures of those wounds as well as some form of a broken nose or his attorney would have never said it.

    Funeral director claims no signs of a scuffle on T and Z has the only wounds. Lines on the back of his head is consistent that his head may have been on the edge of the sidewalk.

    At least one victim sees them on the ground close enough to distinguish who is on top and on bottom. No mention of the gun even as Z asks John (witness) for help.

    Police could have tried to say it wasn’t warranted use of force but with only one consistent set of facts avail the prosecutor would have realized the stand your ground statute would apply. Pushing the case would be preventing their chance that an inconsistent statement would later be made by Z. That statement is highly unlikely after all that has happened. If they charge him now or not the defense will say ….Punch to the nose can be lethal as can hitting someones head off the concrete. One doesn’t have to wait to be crippled before they defend themself.

    Neither party necessarily has to have been a bad person. Full version of the call reveals little to do with race. (there always remains the possibility of some outstanding fact from a report that the police are holding back to develop a case but as it stands the case would not be very good)

    • Per your opening line, I think you saw the following link but the rest of your comment sort of doesn’t make sense so maybe not…

      

      Zimmerman’s truck is located at the cut through in the above link. Moreover, and most importantly, the timing from the 911 call makes sense as diagramed.

      I know there’s a ton of text in the original posting and comments but maybe take another look.

      If you’d rather not, at least check out the last paragraph here…

      http://m.gawker.com/5898036/new-evidence-contradicts-zimmermans-claim-of-a-violent-fight-with-trayvon-martin

      And, don’t forget this…

      http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

      It’s not often that a guy hammering another guy cries out for help (several times), right?

      • Now have Z scenario in a more aggressive posture. Due to the 40 seconds or so of screaming now presumably coming from Trayvon. Add in 40 prior seconds to box in the time fairly well. Given the eyewitness have to figure screaming and both on the ground at least until right before the shooting. One guess is that Z got Trayvon in a headlock. Left elbow. Z then falls under Trayvon while still maintaining the advantage. Explaining the cries and the bump. Also the positions might have been more side by side . From a distance of say 30 feet in the dark the far person might appear to be on top. Would be useful to see the relative positions. Also falling face down suggests Trayvon was moving away. Possibly breaking the headlock? And also Zs general shape seems much more robust. 190 versus 160 lbs. Also there is no reason to assume Trayvon knew about the gun until perhaps midway in the cries. Any change in Trayvon’s tone midway?

73. Who is screaming on the tape means very little in this case. Let me explain:

    The argument that Z doesn’t have much injury fails (even though I think there will be evidence Z did in this circumstance). The reason why is injury is not an element of the right to use self defense. Instead only a reasonable apprehension of fear for your life or “great bodily harm”, need be shown, in most states.

    For instance, if my client’s version is that he is punched by an aggressor in the soft tissue and cartilage of the face with sufficient force to knock my client to the ground (undisputed in this case), I am have already arrived a self defense situation that would warrant deadly force. When the aggressor then climbs on top of me continuing the assault my life is at risk immediately. I am in danger of having my nose cartilage rammed into my brain… instant death. Anyone who has been the victim of such a punch can attest that it is a very disorienting event. Death a factual possibility.hence my clients reasonable fear of great bodily harm has already manifested itself.

    His nose is reportedly broke. The attorney in this case had no obligation to bring this fact to the public. As I told you before, the injury is not required to act in self defense, only a reasonable apprehension of fear or great bodily harm is required. If it turns out his nose was broke it only underscores the reasonableness of the self defense.

    Z here has not only one reasonable fear but two. One punch in the nose can be lethal. One head hitting a side walk can be lethal. Repeated hits off the cement magnifies the danger. Just because the egg doesn’t split with the first crack to the pan doesn’t mean it will survive repeated blows. When I was in college both of those events did occur resulting in two deaths from what some would allege were otherwise simple fights. Size does not matter but even the size in this case supports the idea that Z fear is reasonable.

    Incredibly there is no evidence Z ever attacked back at all other than wrestling with his assailant who sits on top of him. This may be because he isn’t violent, or might just be because he is incapacitated from the blows to the head and nose cartilage and or just terrible at fighting. His terribleness at fighting hand to hand is not at issue. The only thing relevant is the reasonableness of his actions. Nobody has to wait until they are completely physically disabled to avail themself the defense of deadly force to thwart an assault. You don’t have to wait to be a victim, if your fear is reasonable. This persons fear was not only reasonable it was a reality that great bodily harm had already occurred.

    Checked your links. The truck could very well be about where you place it but a yards further away to towards the middle of the section between the clubhouse and the cut through at the curve but you would have to assume that Z is lying to the dispatch about information they are collecting to locate him (makes little sense) Z tells dispatch his truck is parked at a cut through so I am not sure what purpose there is in not accepting this as accurate. (maybe you have a picture of it parked and Z’s description is off by a few feet?)

    I didn’t devote much time to racial profiling because it was obvious race was not used to profile a suspect for detention or arrest. Z made a call to police to investigate someones presence in a gated community, the dispatch asked him questions sufficient to identify the person, It should be stated racial profiling and a racially motivated hate crime are not one in the same. There seems to be no racial motive to have pulled the trigger in this case at all. I believe the family has already come to this realization. I think poor reporting has lead to this false premise.

    Lastly on the link regarding the voice arguments… that sort of evidence would have to pass a daubert test in court and here is why it is unlikely to do so: http://crayfisher.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/up-next-astrology-experts/ for the sake of argument imagine it comes in (to evidence) what does it prove? All account still have Zimmerman on the bottom trying to escape and Treyvon on top of him and all of the injuries are suffered by Z. The fact he was screaming throughout an attack would be interesting but doesn’t change the facts at all. I used to scream when I tackled someone in football. I have seen people scream out of fear while they beat the crap out of someone. The scream itself means little given the unchangeable fact that T has no injuries that would explain him screaming. Witness said it was Z screaming for help. It could have been them both, but one fact doesn’t change and that is there seems to be wounds on Z and not T to support the use of deadly force.

    Forgive the length of this post and much respect to everyone who has been impacted by this tragic situation.

    • Why was the ambulance coming for Zimmerman called off? That doesn’t happen if his injuries are life threatening.

      You’re basically saying that Zimmerman had every right to stalk a teenager. After stalking Trayvon, Zimmerman then had the right to use lethal force because of a broken nose caused by a FIST FIGHT. Really?

      How many bloodless broken noses have you seen? If his nose is broken and blood is gurgling down his throat, how is Zimmerman able to repeatedly scream help even though – without any doubt – the voice screaming help isn’t is?

      http://m.npr.org/story/149833051?url=/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/04/02/149833051/trayvon-martin-case-voice-calling-for-help-isnt-zimmermans-experts-say

      • That problem is that the law states that you have the right to use lethal force even if you perceive that your life is in danger. For example, If I am running at you with a sword, you wouldn’t have to wait for me to cut you in order to defend yourself. You could shoot me before I reached you and that would be self defense. GZ will have to prove to a jury that he feared for his life and that fear was reasonable given the circumstances. If a 3 year old baby was running at you with a sword, you wouldn’t be able to kill him with self defense because the fear wouldn’t be reasonable.

        • Another example…

          You’re stalking a person in your neighborhood after being told not to. They punch you because you’re stalking them. You shoot them. You’re going to jail.

    • Ambulance:
      Why was an ambulance’s called off? SFD pronounced T dead and Z was treated and cleared to be taken to the police dept by SFD.

      Police report indicates Z was handcuffed and placed him in rear of patrol car where Z was treated by SFD. SFD = Sanford Fire Dept. Below is the police report indicating the SFD Rescue 38 responded to the scene and pronounced T dead at 19:30. Ofc Smith noted Z was bleeding from the nose and back of the head and back was wet. (it doesn’t state how much blood) After being cleared by SFD Z was then transported to police dept.

      Click to access 69081607-29132322.pdf

      Stalking? Z never moves during the call until Trevon runs.
      You refer to Z as having stalked T. So lets review:
      7:09:34 PM.The call to dispatch non emergency begins.

      7:09:50 (16 seconds into the tape) The “best” address he can give to the dispatch is 111 Retreat Circle indicating T is at or near that location standing/walking around in the rain Z thinks he may be on drugs. So Z is located where he can view him.

      7:10:11 (27 seconds into tape) Dispatch asks if T is white/black/or hispanic Z responds he “looks” black (29 sec) Did you see what he was wearing?(31 sec) Ya a dark hoodie or a grey hoodie and a pair of jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes (40 sec mark) He again describes him standing around looking at all the houses.

      7:10:19 PM (48 sec mark) Z indicates T is staring at him. At this point it is safe to assume Z located between T (who is at or near the clubhouse) and the row of condo’s where the trail begins on your map because

      7:10:32 PM Z states 111 address is the clubhouse Dispatch ask T is at the clubhouse and Z responds: “Ya, and now he’s com­ing towards me.” (1:01 mark on the tape) Hand in waistband. Z confirms race as T gets closer: “Ya he is a black male” (1:10 mark) button on his shirt. Dispatch how old: Z: late teens somethings wrong with him (pause) “ya he’s coming to check me out, he’s got something in his hands I don’t know what his deal is” (1:27 mark)

      Dispatch: okay just let me know if he does anything ok? (1:30 mark) Z get somebody over here. Dispatch ya we got em on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. z responds “okay” (1:37 mark) these assholes always get away, more directions “straight in and don’t turn and make a left, shit he is running” (2:08 mark)

      Dispatch he is running? which way is he running? (Door opens 2:10 mark Z can be first heard exiting his parked vehicle)

      ++++Z never moved from his stationary position viewing T until the Dispatch asked which way is he running+++ at the 2:15 mark Z states towards the other entrance of the neighborhood dispatch which entrance is he heading towards? response the back entrance 2:20 dispatch detects Z may be following him and asks Z responds yes Dispatch we don’t need you to do that” Z responds okay 2:28+++

      Z hasn’t racially profiled he responded to to question by Dispatch
      Z isn’t stalking he responded to the Dispatch inquiry as to where T is headed,
      Z stops when he is told that isn’t needed begins answering dispatch questions indicating he has lost sight of him and doesn’t know where he is.
      +++Stalking doesn’t apply+++ Z is stationary for all but 20 seconds and is only reporting where he ran

      Lethal force
      Lethal force may be used in this situation as explained previously. He is knocked to the ground by an unknown attacker approximately 1/2 foot taller than him and the assault continues for over a minute resulting in his head apparently being propelled off the sidewalk repeatedly. Serious bodily injury has already occurred and Z’s perception he is in peril is reasonable under the known facts.

      Lack of Blood – in video is red herring
      You make several assumptions about your expectation regarding the wounds production of blood. Smith noted blood in both locations nose and back of the head in the report. Smith has no motivation to falsify his observations. The SFD treated Z in the rear of his vehicle and will have also filled out a report. More than a half hour elapses prior to reaching the police station during which time scrapes on the head caused by contact from the cement could have easily coagulated similar to the nose. Result injuries hard to detect from a garage video.

      On this point, you seem to leave reason, why? because they would have likely recorded the wounds of Z via close-up pictures etc at the police station. This video is just one record of the appearance and it would not be the best way to record those injuries. Presuming his lawyer would go on national tv to state his medical records will also confirm a break contemplates a conspiracy that would include policemen, firemen, and Doctor(s) and other medical professionals, coordinating their reports with witnesses recollections. — highly unlikely.

      The media unfortunately has created a narrative (via editing audio) that the facts don’t support. That is why newspaper accounts aren’t normally admissible.

      • You’ve just spelled out Zimmerman’s defense. It’s a fascinating story — especially to think Zimmerman should have kept running after the 911 operator let him know pursuing the black teen wasn’t needed. What’s the law regarding disobeying a 911 operator? Maybe it isn’t a severe offense and there is little or no penalty. Does anybody know?

        The 2nd ambulance was called off after the fight between Zimmerman and Martin but there was a call for an air ambulance…

        http://sandrarose.com/2012/04/2nd-ambulance-was-cancelled-for-george-zimmerman/

        http://www.clickorlando.com/news/New-Trayvon-Martin-dispatch-recordings-raise-questions/-/1637132/9959562/-/v7bf3g/-/index.html

        Wasn’t there a news helicopter that night? Maybe news helicopters and air ambulances fly under different conditions. The news crew would probably show up awhile after the incident meaning maybe the weather improved too.

        Was that dirt or mud on Zimmerman’s head, a strawberry, or a gash? No stitches or bandages on Zimmerman’s head or nose, right? No gloves on the officers and the bigger cop rubs the “stuff” off on his uniform which is a little gross.

        http://www.eurweb.com/2012/04/abcs-enhanced-video-shows-cuts-on-zimmermans-head/

        Was there video from inside the Sanford police patrol car #591? As applicable, I’d like Angela Corey to present that one day.

74. hi again….i haven’t studied maps to know the street names and such so bear with me. But do we know Zimmermans car was facing west? Could he left his house and headed north and seen trayvon cutting through at that point, or driven up behind trayvon as he was walking from the north west about to turn south past the sport centre. I think it’s safe to say he would have been watching the kid for a while before he called the authorities. Maybe as trayvon walked toward the sport centre zimmerman drove past a little and parked, keeping an eye on him in the mirror while calling 911, or maybe he had even driven past and turned the car around to watch. I don’t really know but it makes sense that he would watch him for a bit before calling the cops and if he was driving to target and saw martin enter through the north west or even drove up behind him as he was walking north wests before he got to the sport centre and then positioned his car to keep an eye on the kid while he called cops. GZ might have driven past a few times just to see where this kid was heading and then taken up position to call the cops.

    • I’m thinking Zimmerman had to be parked by a cut through. He had to be able to see Trayvon AT the clubhouse as mentioned at the :55 mark. He had to be able to see Trayvon leave the clubhouse and walk towards him as mentioned at the :58 mark. He had to be facing west because it was dark and headlights were needed to see the clubhouse at that distance.

      In my opinion, given the timing on the 911 call and what’s mentioned above, this location for Zimmerman’s parked truck makes sense.

      

      • hi, i agree that he parked near the cut off, i was just wondering if he had seen martin a lot earlier than when he made the call. Maybe he was driving towards north on his street and saw martin cut through where you have him entering on the north west side. Might have driven past him, done a u-turn and had another look. He might have seen the direction he was heading and parked far enough infront that he could see him but also make the call. Although i do think that he must have followed in the car at one stage enough for martin to tell the girl on the phone because she told him to run, he did that while zimmerman was still in the car so if he knew he was being followed (and he must have been on the phone to the girl when he ran onto the cut off because they were on the phone for about 5 minutes). I don’t think Zim was parked at that spot the whole time, either he positioned himself there after checking trayvon out a few times or he was parked closer to the sport centre, near the mailboxes and might have let trayvon get a bit in front befor slowly driving up closer etc. I don’t think he just happened to be parked when he saw trayvon, he was driving somewhere, saw him, went back for another look, parked and called the police. He probably didn’t even turn off the engine and maybe kept slowly creeping up behind trayvon to keep an eye on him.

        • I know there is a ton of text in the comments/posting above – there’s absolutely no way I would read it all if this wasn’t my blog – but Zimmerman could have seen Trayvon on his way to/from Target.

          To recap…

          Zimmerman was said to have left his house for Target that night. That’s supposedly why he was out and about in the first place.

          The closest Target is northwest of the gated community. Zimmerman would have taken Oregon Ave west, Reinhart Rd southwest, and then Towne Center Blvd north to get to Target.

          To get to 7/11, Martin would have been going west on Oregon Ave and then southwest on Reinhart Rd. We can all figure out their return directions to the gated community. 🙂 Hint: They were taking the same paths to/from their destinations of 7/11 and Target.

          As to why he was parked where I indicate here…

          

          I’m not sure. We’ll find out soon enough though if/when the case goes to trial.

75. the marks on GZ head could have just been part of the scuffle that we know happened. They were on the ground, he could have knocked his head a couple of times on the pavement but his head certainly wasn’t smashed repeatedly. Where is the blood on him? I dare say they were just wrestling a bit and trayvon probably got the upper hand and was getting up and backing off when he got shot which is why there is no blood on george. Not sure how trayvon got in that position on the ground though, if GZ rolled him over then one arm would be under him (the arm that remained on the ground) but the other arm would surely be out. This is bizzare which is why it is so unthinkable that it was not investigated further….it doesn’t add up.

76. me again, i don’t mean to be a pest but i was just reading the interpretations of GZ fear or whatever when he was talking to the dispatcher. When i first listened to the phone call from GZ i hadn’t heard about this case, i just read something on a gossip blog that said oh gee this is really sad this kid was unarmed and got shot for no reason and here is the 911 call. So i didn’t know any of the details when i started listening to the call made by GZ. Well, the impression i got from that call was that this kid was up to no good, the tone of GZ’s voice was cool and calculated and suspicious, even when he said “hes coming this way” “he’s coming to check me out”, i didn’t hear fear, i heard suspicion, slight cockiness and i was thinking well it really sounds like this kid is up to something. I must admit that on the first listen i didn’t quite understand where GZ was talking about and thought maybe he was in the sport centre grounds sneaking around because i didn’t know the details so it sounded sketchy to me. GZ really made this kid out to be a suspicious character and when i heard that he was merely walking home and this guy was watching him from his car and then got out of his car and followed him i was shocked…..the shady suspicious character was the creepy calculated voice on the phone who made even the simplest of gestures sound to anyone listening (who didn’t know the truth of the situation yet) that something shady was going on. He wasn’t scared when he was the big man watching the “late teen” in his truck, he knew that when the kid was coming towards him to “check him out” it was just because he had to walk past cause GZ was in his path, he wasn’t scared when he got out of his car to follow this kid, and he looked pretty relaxed about the situation when he was taken to the police station consindering he was just in fear of his life and got beaten to pulp and then killed a kid.

    • You’re definitely not being a pest. Thanks again for the comments!

      Zimmerman sounded anxious during the call in my opinion with the peak of his anxiousness happening around the 1:30 mark of his 911 call as noted here…

      

    • GZ’s 911 call was a cover his ass tactic after TM. We really don’t know who threw the first punch or who put their hands on the other first. Dead man cannot talk. The girlfriend’s testimony suggests that GZ could have been the aggressor but she didn’t see what actually happened. TM’s headphones could have fallen off because he threw a punch. This case should really give pause to any states that have stand your ground laws. We live in a country with a significant population of people who are xenophobic, homophobic and misogynist. This gives jerks and folks with limited social skills the ability to kill people with little or no provocation and under the flimsiest of excuses. Basically to be bullies with guns. There is at least one other reported aggressive encounter between GZ and a neighbor. I will try to find it and post it here.

      Please note the funeral director indicated that TM’s body showed no signs that he had been fighting someone. If TM was banging GZ’s head there should be flesh/DNA evidence under the nails or on his fingers. If he punched GZ there should be knuckle bruises or a bent Arizona ice tea can. Or GZ punched himself.

      With no eyewitness to the start of the physical scuffle it makes it exceptionally difficult to prove GZ’s malfeasance. This sucks big time. They both have the right to stand their ground but the one who will prevail is the one with the gun. I am with Bill Maher. Our gun laws suck.

      • Other neighbors complained of Zimmerman’s aggressive tactics in a 3/12 Huffington Post article.

        • Whoa. Link? On the road right now and can’t search the Internet.

      • http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

        Link for the article about Zimmerman’s neighbors complaints about his aggressive tactics.

        • Very useful — thank you!

    • Jo,

      What you posted was exactly my impression on my first listen of his 911 call and might i add when he claimed to be the one screaming just before the shot that too put some doubt in my head. Now that I have had a chance to research and actually see the path Trayvon needed to get home, the fact that Trayvon RAN in the direction of his house shows that Trayvon was scared. The more that I learn about this case the more frightening I find it and how calculated George is, very scary!

      It amazes me that George’s camp is painting a picture that Trayvon was following him back to his truck and jumped him, why would he run in the direction of his home and turn around and jump this guy. There was a confrontation that was initiated by George, he just didnt bank on Trayvon fighting for his life!

      If it were not Trayvon, it would have been someone else. George was obssessed!

      • http://www.kansascity.com/2012/04/04/3530435/commentary-ethnicity-is-a-red.html

      • i agree with you, he was running, he tried to lose the guy following him. If they got in a fight and gz hit his head on the ground then to bad, that’s what you get. If anybody rang the police and said “there is a big guy following me in his car” then that big guy would be arrested as a predator. Where i come from if a kid claims someone is following or behaving a threatening manner it is taken very seriously because you just don’t know what these weirdos are intending to do. Even if a kid claims a man stopped in his car and tried to talk to them they put the word out on the news to make other people aware there may be a predator in their area. But because trayvon never got to the chance to report this guy, or maybe didn’t take it too seriously until he was in a struggle for his life, it is the creep who follows the kid that gets the law on his side. Now trayvon didn’t know this guy was playing super cop and might have thought he was a pervert, but GZ knew that trayvon was a kid, he described him as being in his teens.

      • Exactly, GZ must be held to a higher standard then TM. The point is, GZ did not know anything about TM, he obsessed and painted a picture in his mind of who TM was and this time the ASSHOLE/COON was not going to get away, he was going to apprehend him for the police! He said that TM is up to no good, high, coming towards him, checking him out, has something in his waistband, and now he’s running! He came up with all of that with in minutes! When in actuality TM was simply walking home from 711 talking to his girlfriend on the phone! WOW, the kid had to die for that? TM was walking by his truck on his way home not checking him out! When TM got close enough for GZ to see the button on his shirt GZ could have politely identify himself and he would have realize TM belonged there. What people don’t want to admit is, GZ was profiling, judging, stalking, and eventually chased TM and killed him! It is not rocket science! He was obsessed and he finally snapped! If Trayvon took the first blow or not he was STANDING HIS GROUND!

      • Elsewhere above, the police told TM’s father that Zimmerman had told them that TM approached him in his car. He said that he rolled down his window and TM asked him why he was following him. GZ replied with a denial, he says he told TM that he was NOT FOLLOWING HIM, and with that he rolled up his window and TM walked on.

        Here, I’ve found the clipping I made:

        BOMBSHELL LINK [STILL WORKING PLEASE READ]

        For example, he says the screams were his, however we now know they were not. He accuses

        Trayvon of starring at him, coming towards him, hands in waist, etc. which are the very

        things the confessed murderer was doing.

        http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

        Note (summary): At this link the Father Tracy explains what the Police told him, about what Zimmerman said. Zimmerman then claimed that TM had approached his car, he rolled down the window. TM then asked why GZ was following him, GZ DENIED HE WAS FOLLOWING TM, then rolls up the window. When TM walks on, GZ then gets out of the car and continues to follow TM.

77. These are all good comments. I always thought the racial slur was mistaken for the “asshole” comment that GZ made. Then, I read one of the post above that said the slur was made when he gets out of the car and that does sound like the f c slur. It’s hard to understand but quite possible.

78. I don’t have time to figure it out and the sad thing is we will either get no prosecution and no truth–or we will get a prosecution “proving” a scenario that may or may not have happened. In the end very little about this will be about truth, justice, reconciliation or healing.

    We will have had two young men (warts, attitudes and all) who essentially stumble over each other in the dark and fear.

    We genuinely have responsibility to each other, to strangers and to neighbors, and to those we love to be circumspect about how we lead our lives. One can be minding their own business one minute and become a stalker the next and the stalked the minute after that and then in the morgue.

    This is true as individuals and as nations.It is sad to say–but the mess of this situation is not that much different from situations which could as easily result in the nuclear destruction of all humanity.

    • I don’t think this is a case that is hard to figure out. The only thing the state and feds have to do is figure out what to charge him with and that is what the investigation will lead to. GZ must be cross examined, if he even has the balls to testify. If he does not testify that will speak volumes and if he does he better be telling the truth because they are going to rip him apart.

      Had GZ not made the comments he did in that 911 call I could see him just being concern but it was way beyond that and this is the foundation for how he approached TM, I for one will be following the trial on this one.

79. I just wanted to add some additional backup for walking speeds for you.

    Average Speeds
    MPH = Miles Per Hour
    FPS = Feet Per Second

    Walking = 2.5 MPH = 3.668 FPS
    Walking Briskly = 4 MPH = 5.868 FPS
    Jogging = 6 MPH 8.802 FPS

    Sources:
    http://www.didyouwonder.com/how-fast-can-the-average-human-being-walk/

    Click to access MPH%20TO%20FPS.pdf

80. GZ’s neighbors complained of his aggressive tactics.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

81. Those maps are wrong. The crime scene was at the first house, and Zimmerman reached that point during the 911 call.

    

    http://imageshack.us/f/571/zimmermanandtreyvon4.jpg/

    • I think this one is right though…

      

      Make sure you check out the shooting site that Tracy Martin points out here at the 1:40 mark here…

82. Also there no times have been released yet of the calls.

83. I had many preconceived views of what happened that night between TM & GZ. One of those wrong views was that GZ saw TM walking, stopped on the spot and called police. As for many of us, it later became clear to me that the two men met at least once before the call. I wrote my views on about that above: TM was followed by GZ on Retreat View Cir minutes before the police call.

    Today, I wondered if there would be other preconceived views. The one that came to mind is that TM called his GF only once at 7:12pm and talked with her almost to the end of his life. I raised that question after re-reading that article from ABCnews (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV)

    Here is her account of events:

    “He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,” Martin’s friend said. “I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run.”

    Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

    “Trayvon said, ‘What are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn’t answer the phone.”

    Now that I’m certain TM & GZ met before GZ’s Police call, it occurs to me that TM’s GF is talking about two different events recounted by TM during two different calls.

    In the first call, GZ is watching TM and stalking him before his 911 call. This is when TM put his hoodie on. TM may have lost GZ a first time and went for hiding at or near the Club House. So, GZ parked his truck on Twin Trees Ln waiting for TM to come out. GZ will eventually call police.

    The second call would be after TM ran as reported by GZ in his call. This is where TM GZ says “Eventually, he would run, thinking that he managed to escape…”.

    So, what could be the evidences for what I’m claiming above? Honestly, there is no direct evidence. But I would bet you that Martins’ Lawyers haven’t disclosed it all to media. However, I’ve found some information supporting my claim:
    1) There are articles stating that TM spent 5h on the phone on his last day (ex. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2017887566.html). I’m not surprise by that since he was a teenager. On top of that, he was to be away from GF for days,
    2) The ABCnews report shows photos of the GF’s T-mobile log. ABCnews hides caller # so you can’t tell who is calling. However, They show the moment of the calls. There, you can see at least two incoming calls, one at 7:04p & one at 7:12p on Feb 26th. I have always assumed ABC was claiming that only the 7:12pm call is the one from TM. It is likely that he also called her at 7:04p.
    3) From the same photo of TM’s GF’s t-mobile phone log, you can see that there is no more call until March 02 at noon or midnight. This is an emergency call (911). So, no one has called her for days after TM’s death.
    4) There are more incoming calls after that emergency call and their # isn’t hidden. That suggests, that only TM’s number was actually hidden.

    The point I’m trying to make here is that GZ has probably been after TM for a significant while before his 911 call.

84. What do you all think he said, I don’t think it is that difficult to hear!

    • one analysis claims it says “f’in cold”, as it was some 63 degrees in Sanford that rainy night and Zimmerman had stepped out of his car.

      • It was cold enough for a jacket and hoodie. I heard an “n” on the end of Zimmerman’s statement – either coon or goon.

      • I’ve also heard []oon. In any cases, I don’t buy into the racism story.
        Instead, I’m more questioning GZ’s judgment which seems to be blurred by some sort of paranoia.

        All along his police call, GZ depict TM has a someone to fear, a junky up to no good. He even sound like he fears him at some point in the tape (around 1’30”).

        The leaked statement GZ made to police paints TM as a gangster. TM confronts him, punches him threatens to kill him and dies saying “you got me”.

        What we know about Trayvon Martin isn’t really in line with it. The only element of information that could line up with GZ’s picture is that traces of pot has been found in his belonging at school. He never had any trouble with police (that would have been out by now). His troubles at school have never been violence related.
        More importantly, on the night of his passing, was he on drug? Have we found anything stolen on him? Was there any tool even just a flash light that would suggest he was up to some break ins? No, Sanford PD would have disclosed all that to stop the criticism toward them. What they did put out his a bag of skittles, some ice tea and $22 in cash. Moreover, he was on a logical path home from the convenient store he went when he was spotted by GZ.

        At this point, there is nothing in Trayvon that looks like the picture George Zimmerman painted.

        What about the schuffle?
        He claims he was the one crying for help. Apparently two independent experts and a few witnesses disagree.
        He said he was being badly beaten. The emergency folks thought no wound deserved more treatment beyond cleaning when they cancelled the ambulance. The images of GZ escorted by police show nothing serious,not even a kid band aid for some cuts.

        Seriously, everything George Zimmerman said, before and after the scuffle, concerning Trayvon Martin seem to be blown out of proportion.

        I’m of the ones who believe the whole stuff was an accident. but, yet I think GZ was responsible for what happened.

      • Z didn’t say f*in cold. It might have been rainy and 63 degrees out but I live in the next county over and it wasn’t so cold that a person would comment on it much less describe it as f*in cold out. It hasn’t been cold all this last winter, we had a very mild one. Whether Z says f*in goon, coon or punks I can’t really say, but he wasn’t commenting on the weather.

      • i don’t buy it. In the context of the call why would he all of a sudden mention the cold….then he knows why trayvons hoodie is up, then he knows why trayvon is under the awnings or why he perhaps ran. GZ wasn’t concerned with the call, only the issue at hand. If he was cold or concerned about the cold then it makes it all the more disturbing why he found TM’s actions to be suspicious.

85. There is some indication that GZ was following TM before the 911 call. The evolving narrative. Here are 2 links, the article and the source article for the first article.
    evolving narrative article
    http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/george-zimmermans-evolving-story.php
    source article
    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE8320UK20120403?irpc=932

    • “You got me.”

      With a shot to the chest/lung/heart?

      • I thought Serino’s report of Zimmerman’s story to the Martin’s had some significantly different details than the account narrative Zimmerman’s family has been reporting. I leave it to you to pull and recreate what you feel is significant and post here.

      • yeah sounds like george has been watching too many westerns. Its not a john wayne movie and he’s not The Duke, he should have minded his own damn business and let the kid walk down the damn street. So sad.

86. Interesting map that also show Z’s house in relation to the other locations. I don’t know how accurate it is but I haven’t noticed Z’s house your maps (could have missed it)

    http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/trayvon-travels-jpeg-map.jpg?w=640&h=264

    This would seem to allow the possibility of the evolving narrative in the article. As Z theoretically could have arrived at the clubhouse area from a different road than where he eventually parks.

    Disclaimer: Call described in the “grio.com” article isn’t indicated in here http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf
    (Note: this pdf on pg 46 seems to refer to the later call by Z. as it reflects radio transmissions of the description of T to ofc’s in route
    It is my understanding this call (we all have heard) was made to a non emergency number rather than the 911 emergency number as the pdf link is titled. How could this be? one possibility is this history represents an attempt to respond to a specific FOIA request and as a result is mislabeled and is later posted on their website. The transmissions noted refer to radio transmissions to the ofc’s presumably as the info is received via telephone. In either scenario it doesn’t look like a 911 transcript, but more like a history of transmissions to officers based off 911 AND non emergency calls since Zi’s description of T is mentioned.)

    — above document is confusing but appears to go back several years to quantify number of calls to this area.

    (found above call history on in this blog http://www.logarchism.com/2012/04/02/trayvon-martin-timeline-of-february-26/)

87. According to father… it’s not my son

    http://www.wesh.com/news/30692415/detail.html#ixzz1qBF29ecJf
    There have also been differing accounts about whom witnesses heard crying for help that night, but the lead detective on the case says he played a recording of that voice for Martin’s father and the Miami man said the voice was not his son’s. POSTED: 10:04 am EDT March 16, 2012

    Haven’t heard this in the MSM…although nbc had link to this article on their site they removed it:

    This would go along way in creating “reasonable doubt” as to who is crying out on the tape.

    • i see what you’re saying but i don’t think it will ultimately matter without proof and experts etc. He might have been in denial at the time not wanting to believe it was his kid yelling, same for when the mother heard the tapes and cried that that was her son and left the room. Maybe she just assumed that was her son since he was the one that was dead. I think all the experts etc will weigh in on it and unfortunately i don’t think we will ever really know who it was, only two people know that, one isn’t talking and the other one can’t. I hope someone gets to the bottom of it for this family, for their son and for everyone else who has really taken this childs death to heart.

    • That has not been substantiated or reported anywhere. The common report is that after many requests the parents with their attorney presentvwere finally played the 911 tapes. His mother ran out the room crying saying that was her son. The Grio story re the evolving narrative listed in response 85 details the account of how the Martins got to hear the 911 tapes.

88. Here is the link to that analysis: http://jneilschulman.rationalreview.com/2012/03/what-george-zimmerman-really-said/

89. I have another analysis: It’s possible that TM noticed GZ staking him out before he entered under the Clubhouse awnings. TM crossed the street and took Twin Trees going left as indicated by GZ,s call to 911 dispatch. After TM passed close by the vehicle he saw GZ who was looking at him. At this point he told his girlfriend that he thought this man was following him. She then prompted him to run which he did. It could be TM spooked out and why he ran. Instead of turning right going south between the back entrance toward his home in open view and to prevent leading GZ directly to his dads girlfriends house and giving away the address, he decided to go straight to Retreat View Circle and go south a few yards to shake GZ off. (See your picture above that shows the tracked route and the entrance into the back after the first set of houses) He wanted to make sure the coast was clear and then proceed to his house from there. It was here he and GZ came face to face and the altercation took place. This is when TM asked GZ if he was following him. He then saw GZ indiscretely holding a gun and became afraid. If GZ was in arms reach TM would try to avert the gun away from him rather than run again with a gunned man behind him. It was at this point TM lunged at him to avoid being shot. The struggle left them both on the ground, with GZ’s head hitting the cement. In the little time while TM was holding back GZ’s arm trying to avoid being shot, TM was screaming for help. It seems a little far fetched how GZ says he was laying on the ground while being beaten half to death he could take out his gun with his finger on the trigger and shoot point blank into TM’s chest in that position.

    A few other thoughts:

    1. TM doesn’t know if this person was an undercover cop or a psycho in the neighborhood. One cannot assume TM would walk up to a stranger and ask if he was following him, instead he would try to avoid them. TM is unarmed and has no idea if GZ has a weapon so wouldn’t hang around to find out.

    2. It would not make sense for TM to attack GZ from behind to provoke a fight especially since he had already tried to outrun and get away from him.

    3. From the description of GZ’s past record and like the wanna be cop and big man hero he sees himself as he would not pursue someone he deems to be an “effing coon” without having his gun ready to threaten if in a confrontation.

    • Exactly, this is scenario makes the most sense. Common Sense. I wouldn’t be surprised if GZ refuses to testify but if he does I really think a liar can not withstand the cross examination!

    • There is a timing issue with that scenario that is that the last phone call TM placed to his GF was about 30sec-90sec after he ran.
      For the rest, this is indeed sound.

      • When I again checked the above location of the gun shot and where TM was found laying on the ground it is quite a distance from the end of the first row of detached houses where I suggested he may have entered back into the main pathway and there the comfrontation took place. If the scene of the crime took place where the red block is marked in the diagram, it is quite a few yards north. It’s possible TM did turn into the entrance between the two rows of houses going south of the T and then hid near a back porch behind some bushes waiting for GZ to give up his pursuit. Why expose oneself in full open view the length of a football field to their home if one thought they were being stalked, by whoever.. At what point he and GZ met face to face is a mystery, though I doubt TM actually walked up to him. In the final call to TM’s girlfriend she claims it sounded like he had outrun GZ and stopped running. He said he was walking and then he may have hid before being surprised when they came face to face. He asked if GZ was or is following him, then the phone cut off. One of the witnesses said the final moments was only 19 feet away from her back window, which she claims was open at the time, and heard the screaming of a child for help before the deadly shot. Where her home was situated I am not sure. I am not convinced the voice was GZ’s because of the tone. It sounds like a young teens high pitched scream, and after all he had only just turned 17. My sons voice did not deepen significantly until he was beyond his teen years.

90. A good article to read: http://news.discovery.com/tech/george-zimmerman-voice-recognition-120404.html

91. I can’t say 100% that Z is racist. But I can say 100% he was profiling that night. I think a person can profile and not be racist because that’s human nature to form certain opinions just from preconceived notions of the world we live in. I find myself profiling that the cute little blonde girl behind the register is going to be ditzy just because she fits the “profile” or I might profile that the old customer coming in the door at work is going to be a pain in the rear just because they look old and annoying. But one thing I am sure of is Z is 100% guilty of causing the death of a young black teenage boy because he was profiling and just knew this kid was up to no good. What Z should have done is just let the cop show up and ask questions of Trayvon. But no, Z just knew this kid was going to go out the back entrance and slip through his fingers. I don’t buy the self defense story, if Trayvon did deck Z it was because of self defense on Trayvon, the victim’s part. It’s manslaughter at the very least and it could very well be labled as a hate crime because of the profiling. Z had never ever even talked to Trayvon, but just from the 911 tape he’s calling him an a@@hole and either a goon, coon or punk. I just can’t see the grand jury letting Z walk.

    • I agree Jon, 100%. I think there are degrees of racism [for lack of a better word]. Yes, people can be friends with some blacks but absolutely hate others based on how their personalities are. I don’t think GZ set out to kill TM that night but what he did so is convince himself that TM was up to something, high, staking out homes to rob, and when TM ran he just knew he was running to escape and GZ was not going to let that A**HOLE, COON/GOON/PUNK get away. I for one heard COON on that tape but many will dispute that because that word in and of itself reeks of racism. So I have to agree with you at the least it will be manslaughter, but I believe it should be 2nd degree murder and a hate crime. The problem with charging him with actual murder and a hate crime is going to be finding a jury that will not be HUNG! I can tell you this, had GZ got away with this and walked as simply as he may have originally thought, he would be a danger to our society and likely would do it again! This whole case needs to be the foundation for some serious law changing and creating. It is frightening to think that something like this can happen when all GZ had to do is have a decent conversation with that young man and not obsess the way he did, his state of mind that night is frightening to say the least!

92. One scenario possibility that gets left out consistently, possible that GZ was brhind TM, reached out and grabbed Tm’s hoodie to keep TM from getting away.mheadphones fall and then scuffle ensues. Given location of GZ car, TM’s destination in the opposite direction it would seem that GZ would have to be behind TM.

    TM’s father said the distance between the murder site and his home was almost the length of a football field. TM would have had to haul a** to have made it home after noticing someone watching him. Black parents teach their sons not to run- because that makes them look even more suspicious.

93. wow just saw an interesting take here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0eHOBOy7Tk&feature=related

    talking about John the witness. They listen to the call from zimmerman and at around the 6 minute mark of their podcast (or whatever it is) they are saying that in the background it sounds like GZ is knocking on someones door…tap tap tap tap….several times. They wonder if he knows someone that lives there…possibly john (remember john was outside and he actually spoke to him when he told him to stop and he’d call 911….i guess if he was on the porch and trayvon came out of hiding and walked passed not knowing Z was on the dark porch, that is how he might have appeared back behind trayvon as his girlfriend said. His voice really lowers and is a bit muffled the last two times he speaks and i wonder if he hasn’t spotted martin again and his attention is elsewhere, hangs up the phone and comes off the porch. Don’t know, but it would sure change things a bit if he actually was knocking on a friends door.

    • Nice!!! When I get in front of a PC again, I plan to edit the clip to around the 6 minute mark, post the vid in its shorter form to YouTube and add an update to the blog posting. Thank you!

      • no worries, you are doing a great job here.

    • Closer to the 7:30 mark.

      It DOES sound like a door knocker. Interesting there hasn’t been more discussion about it.

      Wonder if John was wearing a white t-shirt that night.

      • john said the guy was yelling at me for help, so zim knew he was there and john must have been out on the grass with them for him to tell zim “stop..i’m calling 911” he said he went in and locked the door, went upstairs and BANG. His 911 call he said he heard a shot, they were out there fighting and then he must look out the window and says i think the guy is dead and then says something like oh shit, or something i cant remember just remember him being pretty cool on the phone one second then holy crap the guy is dead the next second. Maybe john came out after hearing Zim knocking, perhaps the altercation already started or maybe he was there before the fight began…but he came outside for some reason and then went back in to call police, no one else went out because of fear. It was right outside his house, GZ call ended just before the altercation, it sounds like he was knocking on someones door just before he hangs up, his voice lowers at the very end of the call. Maybe he saw martin again, left the porch to follow, martin sees him and asks why he’s following him…..john comes out at some point to answer the door, admits he spoke to zimmerman during the scuffle, maybe he witnessed more of it, he went inside, the kid dies. Of course this is alot of assuming and only a few facts but it’s just another scenario to consider.

      • oh yeah and good point about the white t-shirt i meant to say, he may have been part of the struggle that people saw. And i wonder if john spoke to zim at any point after the shooting.

      • That’s a good point about maybe this “John” was wearing a white t shirt and that is what the other witness saw. The white t shirt is still a mystery to me. Isn’t there a Johnathan that lives in the first or second townhouse (2nd I think?) right at where it happened?

      • I love the white t-shirt idea. Good point there!
        It would mean they were two after TM and his GF said there was only one man after him.
        It would be nice to know who else was neighborhood watch over there. If “John” was one of them then it would make sense GF went to him asking for help.

        • I wonder if there were any calls to the witness’ John’s number before/after Zimmerman’s 911 call? Probably not but I bet Zimmerman’s call history from before and after (as applicable) the shooting is interesting.

      • good point about the phone calls. someone posted a link with an interview from a witness saying that a resident was outside with a flashlight after the shot….this might have been “john” and they might have got their story straight before the police arrived…the police report didn’t mention another person being present at the scene so maybe he dissapeared before they got there. Wow, the mysterious white t-shirt, the knocking on the door, the resident with the flashlight….gets murkier every day.

      • Would there be a door knocker on the back door of the apartment? I would expect that those back doors have sliders on them, and a knocking would be a glass sound.

        • Probably not. You’d think Zimmerman would only go to John’s front/interior door with a knocker if they knew each other well.

      • those houses seem to have sliding doors that look like they are metal screen/fly screen on the back, maybe he was knocking on the frame. Wood front doors but I couldn’t see from Johns interview if there was a knocker.

        • Excellent – thanks for checking the video to see if the door had a knocker! I’m sure the coming investigation will figure out which door had a knocker. Looking forward to it!

      • yeah i hope they do listen to his call thoroughly. I haven’t seen this discussed anywhere except here and i think it could be vital. I hope they check his phone calls and his contacts and go through the recording bit by bit.

    • This is simply huge and very interesting. Thanks a lot.
      The door knocking was one of the noises pointed out by “No Longer…” that I assumed to be keyboard typing from the dispatcher.

      • Wow, this sounds very strange, i type all day long and that is NOT typing! This would be huge if he actually pulled that gun and had it out. If he testifies and all this is addressed, i can’t see him getting away with lying.

94. Has anyone thought about TM hiding and then waiting for GZ to pass before TM verbally questiones GZ. Therefore, coming up from behind GZ.

    • That contradicts what Trayvon’s girlfriend hears.
      “I lost him” then “He’s right behind me again.”
      After that, the confrontation begins.

95. 1) GZ sounded high to me the very first time I listened to the 911 call (slurred speech, not articulating, possible paranoia).

    2) I hear tapping in his 911 call that sounds like either packing down a pack of cigarettes or packing down a gun clip from a 9mm…

    3) Re: 911 calls GZ made the prior 6 months. I listened to them, and read the 911 history reports in detail He sounds a bit paranoid, like someone I knew that was diagnosed schizo, IMO he needs a psych evaluation at the very very least, and his conceal permit revoked for the sake of public safety.

    • Do you have a link to the 911 calls Z made prior to Feb 26th?

      • Call history: http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html

        6 months prior calls: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68912622/News/Past-911-call-George-Zimmerman-reports-black-male-he-s-seen-before

96. why does everyone keep saying that when told not to follow Martin, Zimmerman says “ok”. He does not. Everywhere i look people keep bringing up that George said ok so he must have stopped following, even Zimms friend said it. Why am i the only person who hears the dispatcher say “ok”. He says “OK we don’t need you to do that………ok?” George does not agree not to follow at all.

    • sorry i was wrong….of course as soon as i typed it i had another listen and i think it was actually george that said it….oops 🙂

      • Happens to the best of us. 🙂

97. Apparently, GZ was on top when he shot TM.
    Check it out.
    http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-killing-eyewitness-on-cnn-i-offered-to-show-police-scene-of-the-crime-they-declined/

    • A more direct link:

      Eyewitness to the Trayvon Martin shooting speaks out

      • oh sweet Jesus dude, that there is explosive!!! What she says about after the shooting a resident coming out with a flashlight and talking to zimmerman!!!! did he have a white t-shirt on i wonder. John is the only one who said zim was screaming for help, john was outside before the shot was fired….if we can believe the tap tap tap was zim knocking on johns door as discussed earlier, and this mysterious white t-shirt that was apparently on top in part of the struggle (perhaps john came out and was part of the struggle before going up to call 911)…then maybe he came out after the shot and he and zim sorted their story out….did the cops report a resident being outside with a flashlight when they showed up..wow, that just adds strength to the story that zim knew someone and was knocking on their door when he spotted martin again and came up behind him…i want someone to ask her if this resident was in a white t-shirt.

98. I really have to get off my obsession with this case, It burns me up how people are even debating this issue. Now we can hear what sounds like GZ getting his 9mm ready on the 911 call! I have had it! I can’t wait for this to go to trial, this guys is a NUT CASE for SURE!

99. This video I found on youtube pretty much says it like it is. Not all of what he states is 100% accurate but the underlying message is right on. Lengthy 12 minutes but worth the listen.

100. http://videos.mediaite.com/embed/player/?content=BXBZPV3DNRMZNGD0&content_type=content_item&layout=&playlist_cid=&media_type=video&widget_type_cid=svp&read_more=1

     • Witness Statement

101. hello again…look here http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/evidence-that-trayvon-martin-doubled-back
     there is someone saying they can hear a third voice and is questioning whether it is someone involved in the fight outside. This is a pro-zim site but someone thinks they hear something which makes it more iteresting considering we have just been talking about the possibility of john being part of the scuffle…i can’t hear it, but someone with better technology might be able to, it might be significant.

     • I read on another site, someone suggesting a police officer was also there and there was a pop that sounded like a taser being used.

102. in particular read what mattsate says about it sounding like there was another voice outside…..like i said, i don’t hear it but it is interesting that a pro-zim is bringing attention to this

103. You already made up your mind about what happened. You aren’t trying to get to the bottom of this, you’re trying to pin Zimmerman. How about you leave the police work to the police, and form an opinion after the evidence comes out?

     • Boring!

104. I would not assume Zimmerman is getting out of the truck. He could have already been out of the truck at some point before he called and did not shut the door tight or maybe he was not in the truck at the start of the call. When the wind noise stops there is a click-the sound you expect when someone is putting a truck in park.There needs to be a recreation of different scenarios at the location where these events occurred.

105. I think zimmerman approached Martin 4 times in total.

     1 -Before the call Zimmerman gets out of truck quickly, taking keys with him to get a better look ,then gets back in truck and calls police.

     2- You hear the keys going in ignition then the door shuts then Zimmerman follows Trayvon

     Zimmerman is told not to follow,but you continue to hear the wind sound coming through window because he drives toward back gate. He does not want martin to get away out back gate.

     3- Zimmerman stops near Brandy Greens house and does not stay on phone with police because he wants to get out of truck and approach Martin

     Martin switches direction to avoid Zimmerman.Zimmerman gets back in truck and drives toward the club house.

     4-Zimmerman gets out of truck and approaches Martin for the fourth time.

     • How would he know about Brandy Green’s house?

       • Your comment makes no sense. If Zimmerman parks near the back entrace he is going to be parked near Brandy Greens. He does not have to know she lives there.

         • How fast was Zimmermam driving? Yeesh.

106. and with Zimmerman rushing in and out of truck did he hit his head?

107. The police are investigating this case to the utmost scrutiny and to date they still have not found legal grounds to arrest Zimmerman. They would LOVE to have enough to arrest him so they could get all of this controversy out of their way but they haven’t because of the LAW…..

     As much as all of you want to pretend like you know what happened, nobody here does…

     The way everyone wants to hang Zimmerman without knowing the facts is purely political….

     So sad…THIS CASE is why racism in America towards blacks is worse then racism against any other minority…

     If you live your life looking for racists, I guarantee you will find em…Just as if you lay in your backyard all night staring at the stars looking for UFO’s, you will see on by the end of the night….Its called a snipe hunt… or a racial snipe hunt..

     Its a huge disservice to race relations in America….

     • They will definitely arrest Zimmerman in due time. In due time…

     • just because racism is used at times when it is unjustified does not mean it doesn’t exist. Racial profiling is a bit different to racism and i think we are ALL guilty of profiling someone at some time. The way the police handled the case was not not good enough and it is fair for the parents to ask WHY their child did not seem to matter. Whether it turns out race or zims connections or both were factors is to be determined. But racism is alive and well in this case, if only for the way non-black people have reacted when the family of a dead child ask the question, was this racial profiling, was it swept under the rug because of race….all fair questions if you have lived as a black person and dealt with racism all your life and it is pretty sad that so many non-blacks are so quick to complain about the “race card” being played. A huge disservice to race relations would be the denial that there is in fact still race issues, there are still racists. I am white, i don’t consider myself racist but how the hell do i know what true racism is or what it feels like. I have never walked in those shoes and am very thankful that i have not. So i guess i can easily say “stop using the race card” or “it’s got nothing to do with race”, but history says black people have been treated like shit, and no-one can deny it, and it hasn’t just gone away, and the vilification of the VICTIM in this case is proof of that cause while we are saying “it’s not about race, stop complaining about race” we are at the same time trying to prove that this kid was indeed a thug. Why? Why go to that much trouble to prove it’s got nothing to do with race, cause the intensity of that denial and the hatred with which people have attacked the victim, his family and witnesses proves how racist we in fact are.

       • Jo, kudos to you for speaking up and believing in doing what is right! I applaud you and appreciate everything you said!

108. Does anyone find it bizarre that Zimmerman’s brother, father, nor two lawyers have not seen him in person? Also why has the wife not come forward? I have been away from the news for the last week so maybe I missed this? His “friends ” that have come forward sound nothing more than acquaintances who didn;t really know him. Anyway I’m guessing, he is trying to lose weight, so it doesn’t look like he could have overpowered Trayvon. His is in hiding I know but how could your family not have seen you since this whole case started. I wonder if he has been disowned bc he really is a loose canon and his father and brother are coming forward to protect themselves and George from people who are seeking to possibly hurt them as vengeance. Why wouldn’t George just turn himself in to protect his own family, himself and his wife.

     • I laughed when I read about Zimmerman trying to lose weight right now. I can picture him in a Zumba class right now with a wig on to conceal his identity lol. Seriously though, I think he is probably staying in his father’s basement. His family is saying that they haven’t seen him because they don’t want anyone following them to try to cause harm to Zimmerman. I don’t think he will serve anytime for this. Sanford botched the initial investigation and many witnesses have conflicting stories. It will be hard to prove with absolute certainty that he didn’t act in self defense unless the prosecution is sitting on a smoking gun.

109. Its hard to take this post seriously when one of the first items is a snarky comment about the Sanford PD not arresting Zimmerman.

     They took him to the station and questioned him for 5 hours. It was the DA that refused to charge.

     • Ok — then the Sanford PD and DA SUCK.

       • Questioning is not the same thing as arresting. An arrest implies bringing charges. I think the major issue with the whole case is that the police attempted to sweep this under the rug.

         Yet by law, it is up to a JURY to decide whether the affirmative defense of “Stand Your Ground” will, or will not, apply to Zimmerman’s actions. A human being was killed, and the killer confessed pulling the trigger. From there it’s up to a trial before a jury to decide if the killing was justified or not, negligent or not, and so forth.

         • Well said – thank you!

110. This has Zimmerman’s call lasting from 7:11 to 7:15…

     http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html

     • If true I think that would make my Zimmerman approaches Martin 4 times unlikely . Zimmerman would have less than a minute to drive back toward clubhouse and go between buildings . I get the impression Zimmerman drove more than the length of a single building following trayvon while on the phone.I am biased because if it was me I would make a point of giving the general area I was in unless i strayed more than a minute or two away from the truck ,so i think he initially followed in truck. Also Zimmermann did mention Trayvons going toward the back gate. Even small details like this could change my opinion. I would like to see different scenarios reenacted at the scene of the crime.

       • Once the truck was parked facing west in my map example, I personally don’t think it moves. I’m sure there are crime scene pics that will show Zimmerman’s truck location.

     • Indeed, I have no idea why many media source place the call at 7:11pm while the log of the police call clearly states that the connection was made at 19:09:34. The issue here is that GZ didn’t call 911. Instead, he called Sanford PD. So, the person talking with GZ is a Police Officer and not a dispatcher. From the records, the call connection is at 7:09, the first wire is indeed at 7:11 and the last wire is at 7:13. That last wire is about the decision to get the officer to call GZ at arrival. This was the last thing GZ asked for before ending the call. We know the tape is 4min long. So, to me the 7:09 as the start of the call is pretty solid.
       I guess journalists that use that 7:11 as a starting point have failed.
       Those journalist often state that there is a 1min gap between the end of the call and the scuffle. Actually there are 3min.

111. I was discussing this with a friend earlier and it made me recall that I read somewhere that GZ was straddling TM. I found the article here:

     http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10854229-witness-zimmerman-never-tried-to-help-trayvon-martin

     where the 2 roommates claim that they saw GZ on top with his legs on both sides and hand on TM’s back. If GZ was on the bottom, he would have to roll from under TM and then get on top of him (assuming the women are not lying). Is it possible for ballistics to determine if the weapon was fired up or was it fired down at the target?

     • Great questions – thank you!

     • The autopsy will determine the angle at which the bullet entered Martin’s chest. It will also give clues about how close the gun was when the shot was fired.

       In the struggling scenario, the shot would have been at point blank range, possibly even jammed against the body when fired. There will be gun powder stippling and even charring at the entry. The problem with this is that there is also high velocity splatter and blowback, and we don’t see blood on Zimmerman’s clothes in the police video.

       I will be VERY interested to see the autopsy report.

112. I think your yellow line in the first map should be trayvons path. I don’t understand why people would think Trayvon would take a less direct route. Trayvon cuts over to between the buildings and Zimmerman drives past two buildings follows the road to the left and stops at the cutoff between the ends of two buildings. Why not make a map with that scenario?

     • Yeah, that could have been Trayvon Martin’s path based on the quickest (maybe?) route home and the fact that Zimmerman said he was running towards the back entrance. However, Zimmerman running by the T in the sidewalk to clear the area doesn’t make sense given this path.

113. here is how I think it could have went down. If I get a chace I will take better pics. It was a pain in my butt trying to get a good pic with a shitty camera. But anyway I do not mention george could have followed Trayvon b4 he even placed the call.

     • I only hear one door open (the chimes) and then shut… from the :43-:47 seconds of your video.

114. “No Longer…” I have made a map locating 5 of the 7 witnesses on the crime scene. That map briefly describes what they said during their 911 call. Could you shoot me an email so I can email you back with the image. We could start a discussion around what witnesses have seen and how to fit GZ’s or DeeDee’s (TM’s GF) accounts of events.

     • Email sent — Looking forward to it!

       • The map locating the witnesses by call would be of interest to me as well.

       • This was awesome. Thanks again, Tchoupi!

         

         I’ve added it to the “Update” section as well.

     • hi, did you post this map with the witnesses, it would be very interesting to see.

       • Not yet – I promise it’s coming!

     • This was awesome – thanks again, Tchoupi!

       

       I’ve added it to the “Update” section as well.

115. Several problems. You don’t hear the car door open until AFTER you hear George say “he’s running” at 2:08. And he immediately says he’s running towards the south entrance. To me that places the truck closer to the cut-through on twin trees and that Trayvon ran south on Twin Trees.

     Then at 2:38 you hear George say “he ran” and the huffing and puffing ends on the phone. To me this indicates that Trayvon took the gap between the first and second buildings and he was giving up on the chase.

     Here is where things get interesting. George stays on the phone another full 1:30 with the police, talking calmly (obviously not running). If Trayvon was running home, he should have been home and safe before George ever got off the phone.

     What I think happened is that after Trayvon got between the buildings, he only ran a short distance further and stopped, thinking he had gotten away. George, having initially given chase, continued to walk at a liesurely pace while on the phone with the police to the gap between the buildings thinking Trayvon was long gone.

     After reaching the gap, having finished his call with the police at that time, he didn’t see anything and turned back north between the buildings. Trayvon, having stopped nearby, sees George behind him again (which is what he told his girlfriend) then decides to walk over and ask George why he is following him. This would explain George saying Trayvon came up to him behind as well as explaining how both of them ended up north of the first gap between the buildings instead of well south of them.

     • I think he was at the top of the T and had no reason to go south and the timing I lay out makes sense.

       Regardless, there’s a 3 minute gap after Zimmerman hangs up. From wherever that call ended, he should have been back to his truck and definitely not south of the T if he was returning to his truck when supposedly attacked from behind.

116. First, thanks for doing this No Longer Mass Emailings. It clears up a lot of initial questions we all had. And of course, it has created a lot of new ones.

     I would suggest it’s time for a new map with the actual times on it. (Yeh, I’m pretty generous with your time.) Now that we know GZ’s call started at 7:11:12 pm, we can compare actual times with the assumptions.

     One other possibility about TM’s path comes when GZ tells the dispatcher that TM is heading for the back gate. Would he assume that if TM was running to the cut through path? Wouldn’t it be plausible if TM headed South on Twin Trees for a bit?

     The girlfriend’s affidavit (reportedly) quotes TM as saying “he’s right behind me again.” If TM took the cut through and headed South at the T, he didn’t get very far.

     If TM ran south on Twin Trees and cut between some buildings then went North, I think the timing works better. It does leave TM out in the open for easy spotting by GZ, though.

     Anyway, thanks!

     • You’re welcome – I appreciate the feedback!

       My map is by seconds of the call rather than time of the day. Not in a snarky tone at all but does it still need to be updated in your opinion?

       

       Trayvon could have went south on Twin Trees and then entered the middle corridor/sidewalk area from the west but he would have been south of the shooting at this point. For Zimmerman’s story to add up – that is, I was attacked from behind while returning back to my truck as instructed, Trayvon had to be at the shooting site or north of it.

       • The big problem is that Trayvon had a 2 minute start running south, and then the confrontation happened a minute or two after that. Trayvon should have been home and his brother starting his skittle high long before the confrontation took place.

         The only explanation that makes sense is that Trayvon stopped (which is what the girlfriend indicates when she talks about him thinking he lost him). And more importantly, he walked back north, likely when Zimmerman came between the gap between the buildings and started back north towards the cut-through (and his car which was parked by the cut-through).

         • If Zimmerman was cruising in between gaps in the buildings – note: this isn’t what my map suggests – why didn’t he head out to Twin Trees for his truck rather than north on the path?

           Also, you’re saying Trayvon was near the shooting site and north of Zimmerman when he started a verbal confrontation? Trayvon shouldn’t have been near of the shooting site if Zimmerman’s route is what I suggest…

           

           …and he was simply heading back to his truck when attacked from behind.

         • Trayvon didn’t have a problem. He was heading home – no matter which way he was taking – and a guy was stalking him even after being told to stop by a 911 operator. There are suggestions on this posting that Zimmerman called the police department’s direct number so that would presumably mean he didn’t follow an officer’s orders.

       • if George Zimmerman was sneaking around between houses he’s lucky some crazy neighbourhood watch guy didn’t shoot him for looking suspicious…joking

         • Touché

       • Am I missing something concerning the time of GZ’s call? Is there any information showing he called at 7:11 rather than 7:09?

         • Milo just posted this…

           Note that GZ calls in at 19:11:12. That’s about 2 minutes later than most of the assumptions on this blog.

           Source: http://motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history

           ** I haven’t personally reviewed the link yet…I just approved the comment.

       • There’s no telling why Trayvon didn’t run all the way home. He could have took a different route to avoid letting the creepy guy following him to see where he lived. It’s totally reasonable since it would have just been him and his little brother at home. If someone was following me and they started to get out and run after me on foot, I would probably freak out especially when it’s obvious that the person is not a cop and I know I didn’t do anything wrong. How many times have we read about people coming up missing after taking a short trip to the store? There are some wackos out here and there was nothing about Zimmerman that should have made TM feel safe.

117. i’m just really thinking that George and John know each other. I hope Corey looks into it. Why was john outside during the scuffle, did zim knock on his door, who was wearing the white t-shirt, who was the resident outside talking to zim with the flashlight before the cops got there, did he leave before the cops got there because it wasn’t mentioned in the report that another resident was there. And i think during a scuffle both men might have been rolling around (or all 3 men if the mysterious white t guy was a 3rd person) swapping who was on top.

     I can’t get it out of my head that one of the residents was a mate of george now…it’s doing my head in.

     Once again good job to NLME for letting us vent and discuss here.

118. I’ll give a complete overview as short as possible.

     Trayvon was spotted by the clubhouse which is by the entrance so he couldn’t have been followed there. His girfriend says he sought shelter from the rain which explains him loitering around the buildings there.

     George lives in the bottom left corner of the development and was leaving so he came up twin trees and stopped his car by the cut-through when he spotted Martin by the clubhouse.

     Trayvon saw George looking at him, got nervous and decided to walk home. This actually brings Trayvon towards George which explains George describing Trayvon coming towards him to check him out. Note, Trayvon’s girlfriend complains of George “watching” Trayvon, not following him.

     When Trayvon reached George, he finally freaks and runs south on Twin Trees. The girl friend confirms that Trayvon ran and George told the police on the call at 2:08 “he’s running” and immediately confirms that he’s heading south.

     George gets out of the car for the first time within seconds of seeing Trayvon running south and you hear him huffing and puffing as he runs with the cell phone on his ear. The operator picks up on the heavy breathing, asks if he is following Trayvon and then says it’s not necessary. George says ok and his breathing returns to normal a few seconds later.

     George’s breathing returns to completely normal as he says “he ran”. I believe that Trayvon had cut between the gap between the buildings, out of George’s sight at this point, which is why George sounded defeated.

     George then spends another full minute and thirty seconds on the phone talking calmly and describing his trucks position at the cut-through up north. I believe that george wanders, on foot, towards the gap between the buildings as he talks to the police, thinking trayvon is long gone.

     Trayvon himself must have stopped shortly after getting between the buildings because even at a walking pace, he should have been home before George got off the phone with the police.

     George walks through the gap after hanging up with the police, sees nothing and heads back north between the buildings.

     Trayvon, nearby, sees George behind him again, walks towards george and asks him why he is following him. This explains the two of them being north of the gap and explains why both of thought that each of them was behind the other (Trayvon at first talking to his girlfriend about George being behind him and George, having turned back north, saying that Trayvon came up behind him, to ask him why he is following him).

     That scenerio works with all the available information from the phone call, girlfriends call, position of his truck, where trayvon lived, etc.

     I still have no idea why one of them made it physical with the other, but it does explain how they got to where they were.

     • Good read. I like your description until the “Zimmerman heads south on the sidwalk trail” part. Though the operator told him to stop following the teen, I guess he can head east a bit until he clears the area but heading south means he’s still stalking the kid.

       Lastly, if Trayvon was heading south and Zimmerman was heading north to his vehicle like your scenario implies, George couldn’t have been attacked from behind while returning to his truck.

119. A map of what I think happened. Trayvon’s U-turn could have been straight south between the buildings instead of over by the gap leading to retreat view circle. But either way, I think Trayvon went through the gap on Twin trees and stopped. George, eventually went that way too, after hanging up with the police and then started back north towards his truck.

     [img]http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w475/no_longer_me/CrimeScene.jpg[/img]

120. GZ didn’t call 911. He called a direct number to the Sanford PD he had as a neighborhood watch member.

     http://motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history

     Note that GZ calls in at 19:11:12. That’s about 2 minutes later than most of the assumptions on this blog.

     That also means the confrontation with TM was very soon after GZ ended his call.

121. While looking for the Zimmerman police call logs, I found this:

     http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-made-his-own-911-call-before-his-death-fbi-investigates

     That would be interesting.

     • Whoa. This possibility was mentioned a few weeks back by a commenter (update: MissTee) – probably around the same time this Examiner posting came out – but, I hadn’t seen a link or heard anything else about it since. It sounds like there could be another call. We’ll see.

       It seems like Angela Corey could purposely be withholding stuff from the media so that Zimmerman and his family keep telling a side of the story that doesn’t add up. Meaning, the prosecutors are purposely trying him in the court of public opinion as much as possible before going to a real trial.

       • I tracked the mythical Martin 911 call down. Internet sources (http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-made-his-own-911-call-before-his-death-fbi-investigates) reported that on March 27, several ABC affiliates aired video footage of an ABC7 news report claiming that the FBI has an audio of a 911 call made by Trayvon Martin himself just before he was killed. Daily KOS also published an article, “Trayvon Martin Called 911 Moments Before Being Shot”. Both the video footage and the Daily KOS post have been removed.

         There is an audio report from an ABC affiliate (http://soundcloud.com/the-mokelly-radio-report/abc7-chicago-acknowledges) stating that the audio of the 911 call was being enhanced by the FBI to determine what Zimmerman is saying to Trayvon in the background. There are other reports suggesting that the ABC affiliate reporter misspoke, and that the 911 call in question was one of the many calls phoned in by neighbors that night.

         • Truly amazing info – thank you again for the comment(s)!

122. I don’t get that there is heavy breathing at all from listeng to George’s call. I think everybody has been biased including myself when It was already assumed George was getting out of the car and it was the sound of a door opening and closing and that influenced what people,including myself thougt they heard.We don’t know what george was doing before the call.

     • After the door is opened (chimes blaring) and shut, I hear heavier than normal breathing and wind interference into the phone’s mic. That’s not what you’re hearing?

       • I hear the chimes. it is possible that you could not hear chimes when a door is not shut tight. I have had vehicles like that. Someone would need to check out the truck. They also should have checked for blood and if a window was cracked open. I don’t now anything about this specific truck.There is a clicking noise after the wind stop which could be the truck being put in park or the keys turned.. Nothing should be taken for granted. What ever the case it seems George was still moving after he agreed to stop. There is still a wind sound after that so he is still running if on foot or kept going until he got between the buildings I think. Even if George’s version is true where trayvon comes back to the truck that shows George approached Trayvon more than once.

123. Here’s my guess from the different scenarios provided. At the very least I believe there should be probable cause for an arrest an charges on some sort so this event can go through the court system. Personally, I’m not a fan of the law that allows what’s happened so far.

     GZ was driving west on Retreat View Clr after driving north along the east side of the complex and saw TM walking east coming back from the 7-11. He turned left on Twin Tree and pulled over to watch TM’s next move. When TM reached the clubhouse GZ was looking out his window and back when he called 911. At this point TM was a little suspicous of this guy that had just taken a slow left and pulled over. He continued walking East on Twin Tree passing GZ’s vehicle, at about 1:28 on the call. Once TM passed him GZ slowly followed in his truck towards the south turn, alerting TM to being followed. TM began to run and GZ, now parked somewhere near the south turn and got out of his vehicle to try to follow TM. Meanwhile TM ran across the north tee to the path and turned south on Retreat View Clr. This turn was seen by GZ. Thinking GZ may follow him that way he turned in between the buildings and waited to see if GZ was following him. After a time, he decided he’d lost the follower so he walked out to the pathway to go home but it was where GZ was now walking south after going to Retreat View Clr, losing sight of TM and figuring he must have turned West between the buildings.

     GZ was no longer near the mailboxes and so decided not to meet the police there. He wasn’t sure what his next move would be and asked the dispatcher to have the officer call him when he arrived in the complex. Perhaps his southerly walk down the path was a way back to his truck but it’s likely he and TM met face to face rather than TM attacking him from behind.

124. According to a TampaBay article, TM was used to the Gated Community he died in (http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece).
     Here is the interesting paragraph:
     “Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad’s girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him. But to George Zimmerman, he was a stranger.”

     Here is another interesting section of the same article:
     “Just then, three teenage males walked through the unlocked side gate, down the walkway toward Ransburg. T.J. Jones and his twin brother, T.Y., 14, and their cousin James Young, 13, have lived in the complex for two years. Their moms moved here from apartments to give the boys more room and a safe place to play.

     The boys, who are black, used to play football with Trayvon Martin “right there on that grass where he died,” said T.Y.”

     My point is that TM wasn’t lost there. He perfectly knew the place, and he perfectly knew how to navigate between buildings. He also had friends right there.

     This makes me wonder if the door knocking/tapping we can hear at the end of GZ’s 4min call to police isn’t actually TM trying to get to a friend’s. The noise would have drove GZ to him.

     One thing is certain is that GZ suddenly changes his mind, interrupts the Police Officer he is on the phone with and asks for the dispatched Officer to call him rather than meeting at the mailboxes. To me it means that at this point GZ noticed something that made him change his mind.

125. I believe TM confronted GZ. TM had 3 to 5 minutes to run the short distance home, and he didn’t.

     Now, maybe he didn’t consider home to be safe because his father was out to dinner. Or maybe he was just in a panic and thought it was better to hide than run in the open. But I can’t get over the fact that GZ was on the phone a full 2 minutes after he said “he’s running” and the confrontation didn’t take place until a short time after that.

     GZ wandering into the area between the buildings did so with the expectation that TM was long gone. And by both GZ’s testimony and TM’s girlfriends statements, TM spoke to GZ first.

     • Again, you can’t blame whatever route decisions a teen makes with a weird guy was stalking him and only a younger relative back at home. Where would I have gone? Straight home. Why didn’t he? It doesn’t matter.

       • The thing is, if TM walked back north into GZ, there was no stalking.

         From what I can tell, GZ was parked monitoring TM when he called the police, not following him in his car. Then TM took off running before GZ got out of his truck. GZ did follow TM for 20 seconds or so at that point, but then gave up and just walked around while talking to the police.

         While it’s a horrible tragedy that TM died, I really don’t think you can say that GZ was in any way looking for a physical confrontation with him. The way I see it, TM and GZ accidentally bumped into each other (not literally) in the dark, GZ thinking TM was long gone and TM for whatever reason hanging out between the buildings rather than going home, and one of their fight-or-flight instincts chose fight.

         • He couldn’t have been attacked from behind in that scenario. If he was, that means he was continuing the stalking of his prey south of the T in the sidewalk.

     • hmm i don’t know, if he was expecting trayvon to be long gone then why was he wandering between the buildings..he didn’t leap from his truck to take a nice evening walk, he was looking for Martin. TM might have spoken first but i doubt he aproached GZ, he spoke because that fruit loop was on his ass again. And it is BS that he didn’t know what road he was on considering it is the road you drive on when you enter the gate…go through the gate and drive forward, simply continue on the road you enter on and you will see my truck…how hard is that.

     • This conflicts with TM’s girlfriend testimony.
       “I lost him” indicates (to me) that TM was trying to lose GZ.
       “He’s right behind me again” indicates GZ was following TM.
       TM may well have turned at this point to confront GZ.
       GZ’s comment “What are you doing around here?” is (again IMHO) inflammatory. A simple “I’m neighborhood watch” might have changed everything.

       • GZ only started following after TM took off running. And he stopped 20 seconds later after the police told him that he didn’t need to follow TM.

         TM, seeing GZ initially take off after him when he started running, did lose him by running through the gap between the buildings (not the cut through, but the first gap between the north/south buildings). Then GZ stayed on the phone with the police for another minute and a half, talking calmly.

         TM should have been long gone by the time GZ wandered through that gap, only he wasn’t.

         • Trayvon Martin should have been long gone by then or George Zimmerman?

           Zimmerman should have been back in his truck waiting on police 20 seconds after the operator told him to stop following Trayvon.

       • A simple “I’m neighborhood watch” might have changed everything.

         EXACTLY!

     • Also, take into consideration that it was raining outside (I don’t know how hard). There are plenty of times when I leave the grocery store to see 5-10 people lined up (by the entrance) waiting for the rain to stop when it is only a 20 second jog to their car. Of course he could have ran straight home but at this point, it’s speculation as to why he didn’t. Maybe he didn’t want GZ to see what house he went in or maybe he hid to attack GZ (which I don’t believe). I’m hoping the cameras caught a glimpse of this so we can see what really happened.

126. Lets say Zimmerman was following in truck and they did check the truck. They find that the window is cracked open a little.George could have claimed the window was all the way up when he followed Trayvon. I am not convinced myself this is the case yet as there are too many unknowns. We have Georges word for a lot of what happened and his story his fishy. Now if george was folllowing in the truck trying to keep trayvon form getting away he wants a story to explain the partially open window and could have come up with the trayvon approached him while he was in the truck story as seen below.

     Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.

     He could have claimed he did not leave the window all the way .

     • GZ could not have followed TM with his truck. TM was first reported to be at the clubhouse while GZ reports his truck being at the cut-through between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle.

       The clubhouse is right next to the entrance. There was no room in which to do any following. More importantly, GZ was ahead of TM, between him and his house. You can’t follow someone from ahead of them.

       • I never said he was following the whole time. yes he could have followed in truck but it is not likely he did it very far b4 trayvon went between the building. That seemed like a pointless comment

         • Play nice, everyone. 🙂

       • I am playing nice. That comment was uncalled . I am not the one saying it had to happen this way or that way,yet i am the one that keeps pointing why another version may be correct and the other person never explains themselves. It is like explaining why 2 plus 2 equals four when i would rather move on to other things. This whole thing is playing out the way I expected it too but I wasted so much time just explaining the basics I never got that far into discussing that. If people are going to keep saying it had to happen this way or that way and not even bother to give a good explanation why or pay any attention to what I have to say than there is no sense of me even being here. Not once has anyone even bothered to admit I am right about anything like the door could have been open without the chime going off. If you are going to be so biased as to say it happenned this way than you should defend your position. It is the person that is being dismissive that is not being nice and not me… It is acting like the very people I have been trying to avoid

     • Interesting stuff. I am so hurt by this child’s death, I can’t stop thinking about it. Where is the story that has Trayvon knocking on Zimmermans truck window? This is New to me.

     • Also what is the point with the window being down?

       • You would understand the point about the wind if you were considering something besides the zimmerman left the truck while on the phone theory . I checked before I drove away today because people are trying to convince me what I had to be hearing. With the truck door open there was no chime until I pushed the door out. There is no evidence Zimmerman left the truck

         • Zimmerman opens the door, chimes blare, seconds later the door is shut, and seconds later you hear wind/deeper breathing. That’s the only door open/shut that I personally hear.

     • i wouldn’t put too much stock into this. I don’t think Martin approached zimmerman while he was in his truck or we would have heard the exchange on the Zimmerman phone call. Maybe the cop that told Tracy Martin got his facts confused, or maybe tracy martin heard it wrong, who knows. But zimmerman didn’t mention that he had spoken to trayvon on his police call and he didn’t speak to trayvon during the call so someone has misinterpreted something there i think, unless GZ did tell the police that but surely he would know that his recorded call would prove otherwise.

       • Zimmermans call to the police did not last the whole time.If in fact someone told that story I doubt they would claim it was during the phone call. I imagine they would be trying to get george to explain where he was the whole time so maybe that was one of his or his fathers stories.My suspicion would be George’s father was telling both the lawyers and George what to say and that is why we see George staying out of the whole thing and the problem with the lawyers.Maybe George wants to come forward with the real story but the father is trying to protect him and pulling the strings.

127. I have to agree with some other comments that trayvon could have been looking for shelter from the rain at the cluvhouse. That tells me Zimmerman would have already had time to get out of truck b4 he made the call. I think the tapping on someones door theory sounds plausible also. personally I
     think he approached Trayvon at least a few times so george cooks up the Trayvon approaches him in the truck story which would also help his story of why the window was cracked open if that was the case

     • Could it be that GZ said TM was approaching his truck (from behind)because Trayvon crossed the road from the Clubhouse and was headed east on Twin Trees toward the back entrance between the row of houses where the altercation takes place? TM passes GZ and after that point tells his girlfriend he thinks this guy is following him. He then begins running. GZ tells dispatch TM is running and leaves his truck to pursue him.

128. I know what Zimmermans says, but I think Trayvon runs all of the way to the south gate and hides. (Or what you are calling Zimmermans path.) Here is where Martins chats it up with his girlfriend for a few moments. Zimmerman doesn’t see him, but heads down the Twin Peak path. Martin looks out and doesn’t see the creep anymore and heads to the Twin Peak Path still chatting with girlfriend and in no hurry. ANd since he is in a gated community footsteps from home, why should he run? He doesn’t have a mental problem, Zimmerman does. If they see each other as Martin turns the corner this explains the concept of “he cornered him” as the girlfriend states. I don’t think she means from behind, I think it is from the front.

     • I doubt Trayvon would make it all the way to the south gate. If he made it that far he probably could make it to Brandy Green’s house

     • I don’t think he made it to the south gates either. After playing through all of the scenario’s what makes the most sense to me is TM went to Retreat View Cir turned south and then stepped into the gap between the first 2 houses. He feels he lost GZ and is out of the rain. Unfortunately he continues his conversation with his girlfriend and GZ hears him. GZ heads south in between the houses and finds TM. TM feeling like he is home (technically he is) and not knowing what else to do confronts GZ. GZ “knowing” he has a guilty perp on his hands tries to “citizen arrest” TM. TM feeling violated fights back and they begin wrestling. TM lands a solid blow with his elbow breaks GZ’s nose and starts to break contact still calling for help. GZ panics pulls his gun and shoots TM. TM falls forward fatally wounded. Yes there is a lot of speculation but it fits.

129. Has anyone noticed that George Zimmerman’s lawyers have quit?
     http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/10/zimmerman_donations_for_defense_in_trayvon_martin_case_florida_neighborhood_watchdog_solicits_donations_via_paypal_on_website.html

     • You were the first. I’ve had a hectic week or two at work and tried to stream the presser while on the road to no avail.

       So, nobody knows where Zimmerman is?

       He’ll need to be arrested within days – as discussed Angela Corey said she didn’t need the 4/10 grand jury – so somebody better figure out Zimmerman’s location soon.

130. interesting that martin is ignoring advice from his legal council now…while i don’t like that he is now in fear for his life (i want justice not revenge or more violence), it really does appear that he is an arrogant so and so. He thought he had the right to prowl the neighbourhood and harass people for walking home, he now has a web site soliciting money to help him pay defence fees and living costs (how are trayvon’s family surviving, have they been able to return to work) and his site reeks of arrogance. From the quotes such as “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is that good men do nothing. – Edmund Burke.” (which is damn inapropriate, who the f*ck does he think he is, he didn’t stop any evil), to his claim of “life changing events” which forced him to leave his family and life etc when there is a kid dead and a family grieving because of his actions. He gives the impression he has a sense of entitlement and superiority with not a smidge of remorse except for what he has lost. Seems like George Zimmerman answers to no one, not even his lawyers these days. People like the black panthers need to shut up, they are not helping anyone, especially not these parents who are behaving in a classy and dignified manner. No one wants Zimmerman to be harmed, just brought to trial. But Zimmerman needs show a bit of humility, his web site and request for money from his “supporters” and his attitude make it really easy to imagine his mind set on that night, no one was going to get the best of him.

     • I happen to agree with jo.

       • me too.

131. Trayvon was on the phone talking to his GF this whole time. Surely if he was “hiding” from Zimmerman and he saw Zimmerman, he would have shut up. Voices carry outside, even when it’s raining.

     Maybe he was just waiting until he finished the conversation with the GF, we are tallking about a teenager on the phone with a girl, how many of us took the phone outside when we could?

     Point is, if he was laying in wait for Zimmeman, there would be no way he would do it while on the phone talking to his gf- he would give his advantage away.

     He may have been hiding from the rain, or not wanting to go back in until the phone call was up, or even hiding because he was afraid, but he was NOT hiding in wait while talking on the phone.

     • Excellent points – thanks for the comment Peg!

132. Not sure if someone posted this scenario or not. What if TM went north? He goes around the corner and just waits for GZ to finish. He thinks he is gone and starts heading back south comes in the cut doesn’t see GZ thinks the coast is clear and starts heading home. GZ has been loitering around the area spots TM and starts closing on him. Still to me doesn’t matter GZ needs to have a judge/jury buy his self defense claim not have the prosecuter rubber stamp it and sweep it under the rug. Sorry I believe in the second amendment and own guns myself but anytime another person is killed a jury of their peers needs to decide the case.

     A side note. If it was a favor by the prosecutor for the family to let him go it doesn’t matter what race was involved. They thought that it would go away because they a thinly veiled self-defense claim. If any other person had commited the act regardless of race they would have been charged. To me that is the outrage of this case and what has me looking for more information. These types actions were/are common place in some areas of the country and is part of the reason that minority in many areas felt they were getting shafted. Today when you try to cut these types of deals the internet blows you up.

     Thanks for the blog/postings this is the most logical place I have found.

     • I agree. There is “castle doctrine”, which on the whole make sense, but this doesn’t. I think people cannot bare to think that there is no accountability for tracking someone down and killing them. This would give fuels to creeps, crazy ex’s, psychos and anyone else wanting to kill for the joy of it. Especially if how the altercation began is inconsequential.

       • Amen

133. Half a million dolars and GZ could live like a king in some of the 47 countries that do not extradite to the US. $18,000 per year in the Phillipines, Cuba, Vanuatu, or the Maldives would leave GZ living a higher standard of living than what he had in Florida, complete with house servants. GZ’s legal advisors quit today because they don’t want it on their head that this guy left. The attorneys admitted today that they never saw him in person, that GZ lost a lot of weight and was “far from  Florida.” bet he gre his hairf out too! Of course the attorneys have to say they did not think GZ was a flight risk or the attorneys would be liable for obstructing justice. The attorneys, must have some suspicion about their client in order to have chosen to endure the media
     Firestorm and professional ridicule which will certainly follow after today’s press conference. The questions posed here may never be answered! What a tragedy for the Martin family.

134. What bothers me is what was happening to Trayvon to make him call for help for almost a minute? What was Zimmerman doing?

     I have also read that perhaps there was another person involved bc it was heard on a call that Z knocked on someone’s door (John the witness). DId that person in a white tshirt go out to help Z? Also another blogger says he thought he heard a gazer pop go off before the gunshot.

135. this guy talks about the knocking on doors and mentions how zims voice lowers at the end as though he noticed trayvon. Some new photos of the area including the front of the townhouses (although i think GZ would have been knocking on the back doors since that is where he says TM ran)

136. This guy points out some things people should pay attention to. Some are saying he did not follow in truck but you hear what sounds like the truck being put into gear. Of course he could have been turning around so the truck was facing south. He may be wrong on some points. A door chimes normally when opening it ,but is not necessarily going off if the door is open. People do not normally close there door if it is open only an inch or two by bringing the door directly toward them. They swing the door out and than bring it back which would cause the chimes to go off. Georges voice is not that breathy while talking. there is no evidence george got out of the truck. george said go to the left. he could have meant he went toward the back gate which is to the left. he said he was at a cut off. The cut off if he went all the way south and than to the left is between 2 buildings. One of those being the building Brandy Green lives at.

     • GZ is probably in his truck at the beginning of the call then went out to chase TM.
       The reasons are:
       1) It was raining. You can hear windshield wipers when there is no talking (particularly between 1’00” & 1’40”).
       2) At 2’07” GZ says “shit! He’s running”, then you can hear a car door opened (2’09”), chimes (2’10”), door shut (2’14”).
       3) From 2’19” to 2’41” you get wind interference in the mic.
       4) The police Officer caught the chasing and asked GZ not to do that (2’24”).
       5) There is no noise of door being opened/shut no chime to the end of the tape.
       6) GZ is afraid of being heard when giving his address (3’40”), so he’s probably be outside.

       There is no indication that GZ moved his truck during his call to police. Indeed, GZ gives the same indication at 1’40” when TM seems to be passing by him, and 1min after TM went off running (3’10”). He also still agreed to meet at the mailboxes 15sec before ending the call.

       • No one claimed if George followed in truck you should hear the chimes at end of tape.That makes no sense. You are completely ignoring the sounds of gears being shifted.

         • I don’t hear gears shifting. I do hear windshield wipers.

137. You never hear a truck engine. We are hearing door dings, breathing, etc but we aren’t going to hear an engine revving up?

     At the point of GZ’s phone call to the police, he has absolutely no reason to be lying about anyones positions are actions since he wants the police to come there and find TM.

     In GZ’s call to the police he places TM at the clubhouse. TM’s girlfriend confirms that he was seeking shelter from the rain when he first entered the complex, backing up the story.

     In GZ’s call to the police he places his own truck at the cut-through that is past the clubhouse and to the left. He also describes his position as having no real address. This describes the cut-through between Twin Trees and Retreat View Circle at the point where Twin Trees turns from going east-west to north-south perfectly. If his truck was parked there, to his right are the back yards of the east-west building north of him. To his left is the side of the north-south building that is south of him. This position would also be backed by GZ’s claim that he was leaving the complex to run an errand as he would be driving past that position on his way out the main entrance. The logical assumption is that as he was going north on TWin Trees he spotted someone at the clubhouse as he turned the corner to go west, and he stopped his car to observe.

     In GZ’s call to the police he reports that TM starts coming towards him, possibly coming to check him out. This only makes sense if GZ is between TM and the townhome he is staying at. TM’s girlfriend only describes TM as being watched at this point, not followed, so that fits with that description. In addition, she mentioned Trayvon putting up his Hoodie in kind of a defensive gesture. That only makes sense if he is walking towards someone who will look at his face. This further confirms GZ being ahead of TM, not behind him. The only logical conclusion is that GZ is between the clubhouse and TM’s townhome which fits perfectly with the truck being parked by the cut-through.

     GZ gets more and more nervous with the police as TM is approaching him. TM’s girlfriend also describes TM as walking faster, which fits with making GZ nervous. In addition, GZ is able to describe something being on TM’s shirt and that he is definately a black teen. That all indicates that TM and GZ were now close to each other, which fits with TM walking towards GZ.

     Then TM took off running. At 2:08 in the call, GZ describes TM as running and immediately describes the direction as being south towards the back entrance. This is backed up by TM’s girlfriend saying that he eventually did run.

     It is at this point that you hear the chimes of the door, indicating GZ left his truck. This is further backed by hearing heavy breathing and GZ starting to limit himself to quick, short answers. The operator obviously picked up on GZ running as well as the operator asked him if he is following TM. This is backed up by TM’s girlfriend claiming that GZ followed TM as TM ran to get away.

     After the operator tells GZ that he doesn’t need to follow TM, you hear GZ say ok. And after he responsds to the operator asking his name GZ says “George. He ran.” The words “he ran” coincide with the heavy breathing stopping and to me sounds like he is giving up the chase as TM is no longer in his view. Giving the short sprint and TM leaving his view, to me that indicates that TM ran between the gap between the 1st and 2nd north-south buildings on the east side of Twin Trees.

     GZ then spends another full minute and thirty seconds talking to the police calmly and further describing his truck at the cut-through north of the first north-south building on Twin Trees. This is further backed by TM’s girlfriend saying that TM believes he lost GZ. GZ had stopped running to talk to the police.

     At this point TM is less than 100 yards from his home, is ahead of GZ and thinks he lost GZ. But, he didn’t use the time GZ remained on the phone to head home. We can only guess why.

     From GZ’s perspective, TM has escaped, GZ has given up the chase and he is just going to head back to his truck and meet the police at the mailboxes.

     However, at the end of GZ’s call, he indicates that he’s going to give one more look to see if he could re-locate TM as he tells the operator to have the police call him once they get there so he can give them his location.

     I think that scenario is pretty rock solid with all the information we have at that point. GZ saw TM loitering by the clubhouse, called the police, got nervous as TM approached him and was sure that TM was up to no good when he started running. TM saw GZstaring at him as he was walking home, as he got close he freaked out and started running south. Neither one of them actually did anything wrong at this point. It was just a bad combination of circumstances and paranoia.

     What happens next is speculation on my part but I think it makes sense.

     TM, having think he escaped is hiding between the buildings, either in the gap leading to retreat view circle or just south of there between the buildings.

     GZ, having finished his call with the police decides to walk through the gap to get one last look for TM before heading back to his truck to meet the police.

     TM spots GZ coming through the gap and tells his girlfriend that GZ is behind him again. I haven’t seen anything from the girlfriend actually quoting TM as having said he is cornered, just a quote that GZ is behind him again. GZ doesn’t see TM and starts to turn north. TM walks up to GZ, which fits with GZ’s claim that TM approached him from behind and explains why the altercation took place north of the gap between the buildings. This also explains why both GZ and TM’s girlfriend say that TM spoke first, asking GZ why he is following him, he was looking to find out why GZ was staring at him and then following him (when TM ran). GZ in turn says what are you doing here, or something to that effect.

     Again, nobody really did anything wrong at this point. GZ wasn’t actively running down TM, just walking between the gap to see if he could tell the police where TM was. And TM was just questioning why GZ was following him.

     It is only at this point that everything went bad as one of them assaulted the other. And to me, if GZ struck first, he is guilty of manslaughter/murder. If TM struck first, GZ can validly claim self-defense. Unfortunately we don’t have any witnesses to the start of the fight and only have GZ’s word on what happened.

     • Technically TM is in his backyard. Self-defense/stand your ground would belong to TM. Therefore it doesn’t matter who struck who first. I think GZ was between the buildings when he was finishing his call, spotted/heard TM, finished his call and went to “investigate”.

       • It was 100 yards north of his backyard. But that doesn’t matter. The funny thing is that they may both be justified under SYG. The only difference is that GZ won.

     • Normaly I do not hear the engine when someone is talking form a vehicle. You do hear the sounds you expect when people are shifting gears.

     • the school teacher heard angry voices; she wondered who would be out there when it’s pouring rain unless walking a dog. she saw a struggle about to start … “those men.” probably why the two women closet to the “T” didn’t hear scufflin; just whimpering–Tray’s last breaths. the women weren’t close enough to hear, but saw the end of it.

       i am wondering about the white tee & jon & reports of gun shot(s) from several callers.

138. I agree with the first part of Don Rose’ scenario. Here’s mine:

     GZ leaves his house for the store. As he drives North on Retreat View Circle, he spots TM coming through the unfenced shortcut into the community.

     GZ slows and follows. TM crosses the street to the clubhouse and delays under the awning. GZ turns onto Twin Trees passing TM. GZ watches TM in rearview mirror.

     TM walks by GZ. They stare at each other.
     GZ: He’s checkin’ me out.
     TM: That was a creepy looking guy, cold eyes.

     As TM moves along Twin Trees, GZ follows slowly. TM tells his girlfriend he’s being followed. “Run!” says girlfriend. TM walks fast. GM tells SPD that TM is running.

     GZ drives to the right bend at Twin Trees, parks, and gets out.

     I’m starting to think the simplest answer is that TM slows to an amble after turning South at the T, talking to girlfriend again. GZ loses sight of TM.

     TM: I lost him.

     GZ hesitates after walking to the cut through. Still talking with the dispatcher, he walks cautiously, fearful of getting jumped. As he approaches the T, he spots TM and gets off the phone.

     Any holes in that scenario?

     • It’s possible but why turn on Twin Tree’s if TM is in front of the clubhouse? Wouldn’t it make more sense to stay on Retreat View Circle after passing by? He would lose sight of TM. Plus, we don’t hear the car engine at all during any of this. I also think that GZ would have told the police if TM had popped out of the woods instead of coming through the main gate. And it’s only 30 yards from the street to the T. GZ ran/moved fast for a good 20 seconds. He should have been able to run a good 100 yards in 20+ seconds, putting him all the way by where the shooting took place, not by the corner of the T.

       • You mean south of the T.

       • I take issue with how far he should have been able to run. For all we know ..Trayvon had .could have ran a good part of the way back from the store already. Zimmerman could have been better rested in the first place.

       • I think Trayvon went to the awning on the Twin Trees side of the club house.

139. this whole mess is distrubing. but, glad i stumbled upon this blog.

     didn’t see this posted (but could be wrong, lots of great info here): the 47 publicly documented complaints to police as posted on: http://www.insightoutnews.org/readings/a-closer-look-at-george-zimmerman/

     • One of those complaints Zimmerman reports a car driving slow with loud music and he claims they are checking out peoples cars. TRhat makes no sense that someone would be attracting attention to themselves with loud music while they case out the neighborhood.

140. wow, second degree murder…not even manslaughter, they must have something big on him. Well done Angela Corey.

     • I just posted the same thing below

       “They have something we haven’t seen or heard”

141. Well people.I have to wonder if .George’s version has got out to the media. His daddy could have been influencing this case all along. .Maybe they even let him talk privately at the police station with his son and the daddy cooked up the stories then. .Then the daddy got the laywers and told them what to say. The daddy could have come up with the ..Trayvon came up to the truck story. BTW wordpress sucks. .The window keeps shrinking and it does not let me edit

142. I couldn’t tell it in a better way than “nolongerme”.
     Though, I still disagree with the speculative part of that scenario.

     GZ’s account leaked by Sanford PD, states that after hanging up, GZ went to check his location to help police when the Officer arrives.

     We don’t know where he went looking for an address. What we know is that he ended up in a scuffle on the back path between the two build rows two houses south from the T.

     We know that because it happened right at the threshold of “John’s” back porch. “John” is the witness who saw TM on GZ before calling 911.
     There is only one witness who was able to hear everything from the argument to the gunshot to the surrender to Police. She was also able to see from here window that the body on the ground was that of a young boy and that literally shocked her forcing the dispatcher to stay with her for 14min. Here is an example of what she said:

     Dispatcher: “Is this person laying down in the street?”
     Caller: “No, it’s from my back window [inaudible] sidewalk in the back area. People are coming over”
     Dispatcher: “So is the person laying down in the street or in the grass?”
     Caller: “No in the grass. Oh, my God! I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight. … I don’t know if that’s police or not. Oh, my God! He shot, he shot the person. He says he shot the person. He said he shot the person.”

     The conclusion I can draw from that is that witness leaves in the house right across the back path from “John’s”. Her testimony is pretty clear. She heard an argument between two men. The argument was not brief meaning it took some noticeable time before it turned violent.

     That tells me that TM and GZ where right behind her house when they started arguing, and that they stayed there during the scuffle. So, GZ was probably not walking west from Retreat View Cir at the T. He had to be walking on the back path.

     If GZ were walking south from the T when a encountered TM, then he would not be walking back to his truck as he stated.

     If GZ were walking north toward the T when a encountered TM, then he necessarily did more than just looking for an address as he had to go at least one block south on either Retreat View Cir or Twin Trees Ln, before walking back north .

     Either way, GZ’s account isn’t consistent with the location of the argument/scuffle/shooting.

     On top of that there are other inconsistencies:
     1) TM is said to be on top of GZ pummeling his head on the concrete. Police finds TM’s body laying in the grass face down both feet on the pathway. It takes quite a few flips to TM’s body to make it that way.
     2) TM pummeling GZ’s head on the concrete was life threatening. Sanford FD cleaned up his wounds and let him go with no treatment/bandage/band-aid suggesting whatever wound he had it was superficial.
     3) GZ was full of blood but his clothes had no trace of it.

     In fine, GZ has to be tried. I mean a kid has been killed. You can’t be satisfied with just the story given by the killer. No parent on heart would accept that.

     • We won’t know until the trial comes but I think these two witnesses kill GZ’s claim. The catch I had is why would a grown man go back inside to call police instead of breaking up a fight. Granted he may not have been able to break it up but most people don’t run to call the police when two young adults are fighting unless they see a weapon. This to me would mean that GZ had his gun drawn and TM was attempting to keep him at bay. The other peice would be if the ear witness heard GZ tell TM he had a gun and was going to use it. If TM was attempting to subdue GZ and he had his gun drawn that blows his self-defense claim out.

143. Wow. Murder 2 charges for Zimmerman. In addition to some peace for Trayvon’s family, maybe we’ll get hear what really happened that night.

144. I am trying to understand why Corey chose 2nd degree murder and not manslaughter. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this?

     • They can always plead down to manslaughter.

145. An excellent site from the NYT.

     PLUS GZ is charged with 2nd degree murder. I’m French. Can anyone tell me what it means?

     • Actually I have the answer on the NYT:

       What the Charge Means

       By choosing to charge George Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, Florida Special Prosecutor Angela B. Corey selected the toughest possible charge involving a killing, short of first-degree murder, which requires a finding of premeditation and carries the death penalty as a possible punishment.

       Under second-degree murder, the jury must find that a death was caused by a criminal act “demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life,” said Eric Abrahamsen, a Tallahassee criminal defense lawyer, reading from the state’s standard jury instructions.

       The jury would be able to reject the murder charge, however, and opt for a lesser offense, including charges like manslaughter. The maximum sentence for second-degree murder is life in prison.

       – JOHN SCHWARTZ

     • Here is the Warrant for George Zimmerman’s arrest:

       

       It states that GZ displayed and threatened to use his gun.

       • Holy shiat – that’s huge! Thank you, again.

       • The warrant for Zimmerman said “or.”

       • Yes, Indeed. However, a claim is made here. Since carrying a firearm is legal in FL, I guess the ground for the arrest is in the rest of the sentence. I may have to read those sections to understand what the claim really is.

         Here is the sentence:
         “[…] the said George Zimmerman did carry, display, use, threaten to use, or attempt to use a firearm and did actually possess and discharge a firearm and as a result of the discharge, death or great bodily harm upon any person, contrary to the provisions of sections 782.04(2), 775.087(1) and 775.087(2), Florida statutes.”

       • hi thanks for this, its a little confusing though it says he did “carry, display, use, threaten, threaten to use OR attempt to use and did actually possess and discharge a firearm”. Does that mean he did all those things or because it says “or attempt” does it mean he did one or some of those things? Witness John said he told zimmerman “stop i’m calling 911”. Stop what exactly? stop yelling or maybe he had the gun out already or was threatening to get the gun out. I’ve always wondered why john told Zimmerman to stop. Good job finding the warrant.

146. George Zimmerman was arrested today (04/11/2012) and charged with second degree murder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVeQmxKs00). I am actually surprised that they went for the murder charge, as I had expected some flavor of manslaughter.

     That the state is bringing the charge as second degree murder indicates that they do not see evidence of premeditation (that would be first degree murder), but believe that the murder was intentional and not justified.

     These are the charges:
     http://www.docstoc.com/docs/118562269/George-Zimmerman-Information

     COUNT 1: MURDER IN THE SECOND DEGREE — In the County of Seminole, State of Florida, on Frebruary 26, 2012, George Zimmerman, did unlawfully and by an act imminently dangerous to another, and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, kill Trayvon Martin, a human being under the age of eighteen, by shooting the said victim, and during the commission of the aforementioned Second Degree Murder, the said George Zimmerman did carry, display, use, threaten to use or attempt to use a firearm and did actually possess and discharge a firearm, and as a result of the discharge, death or great bodily harm was inflicted upon any person, contrary to the provisions of Sections 782.04(2), 775.087(1) and 775.087(2), Florida Statutes.

     Zimmerman’s mugshot is shown at http://newsone.com/2001898/george-zimmerman/ and I still have to say that this does not look like a nose that has ever been broken… which I say as a person who busted mine a couple of times (softball, basketball, an accidental elbow).

     • I wouldn’t go as far as to say he had a broken nose but there does appear to be a outline of a circle on his nose. Either way, I think the member’s of the subdivision should be questioned about exactly what role Zimmerman had as a watch. This case reminds me how back in high school, people would instigate fights and pump people’s heads up for no reason. Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not saying that Zimmerman is a victim and should get off. It just seems that people were aware of his vigilante behavior and they were ok with it. His fellow watchman said that Zimmerman was fed up with all the crime in the area so maybe he was a bit emotional (or felt that he had the weight of everyone’s problems on his shoulders. We also know that Zimmerman was listed as the POC in the monthly bulletin for the subdivision in case anything suspicious was going on. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out if they had a few fired up meetings where George said that he would shoot the next person who tried to break in a house. Also, there’s no way you can convince me that nobody including his watch buddies had no idea that Zimmerman was armed while on patrol.

       I know he probably thought he was doing the right thing but it was a horrible judgement call and he will spend the rest of his life paying for it.

     • This shows that Corey and her Investigators through their investigation feel they can prove GZ pulled that gun on TM and TM stood his ground. I don’t see her filing 2nd Degree otherwise. They have something we haven’t seen or heard, watch and see!

     • That’s not his mugshot. It isn’t the shirt he was wearing that night and there is no plaque.

       • Correction, that’s his mugshot from yesterday, almost two months after the shooting. Of course he wouldn’t have visible injuries two months later.

147. on Piers Morgan the brother Robert Zimmerman is now saying that after hitting GZ trayvon sat on his chest and covered his mouth and nose and that is why GZ thought he was going to die…because he couldn’t breathe, and with his last breath he was screaming for help. Hmmmmm, so now it’s not the repeated smashing of the face and slamming his head into the ground…now he was apparently suffocating and near to passing out. And he couldn’t get any air because his nose and mouth were covered and had blood running into the back of his throat, but it was him screaming (huh??? how does that work…)….and what happened to the fathers story that george and trayvon were wrestling over the gun because trayvon saw the gun….how if he was sitting on georges chest covering his face (whilst repeatedly bashing him in the face and smashing his head on the ground…depends on whose telling the story)…how did he see the gun that would have been behind him if he was on his chest. These people need to stop talking…their stories change too often and they are just contradicting each other.

     • Jo,

       Could you post the link?

       I’m usually not considering the accounts from GZ’s family/friends. They make his story more complicated and less consistence with facts.

       GZ’s brother is just saying: “OK OK, GZ’s head wasn’t banged that badly on the concrete. Actually, his head wasn’t banged at all. You know, with only 2 hands and one used to suffocate his victim, TM couldn’t really grab my brother’s bald head to smash it on the ground. BTW, it was not his yelling you’ve heard on that tape too. George was too busy searching for air.”.

       The gun story is from GZ’s father. The issue with that story is that Police Officer Timothy Smith found the gun and the holster in GZ’s band waist. That suggests to me that the holster and therefore the gun were never tied to GZ’s chest as I understood the father’s account. It also suggests that GZ was not planing to have the gun on him. He probably took it with him while in the truck when TM was walking toward him.

       There is a say in France: “One can choose his friends but not his family members.”. There’s definitely some truth in it. Though, when it comes to choosing friends, GZ should make a better job (I’m thinking about Frank Taaffe here).

     • Maybe the father’s story is really close to the truth. TM attacked GZ because GZ flipped back his jacket like an actor in the old western movies to show off his gun. TM knowing he has to subdue GZ or die, attacks him, and the struggle for the gun starts. TM knowing he is on borrowed time starts screaming for help.

     • hi tchoupi, i don’t have a link it was on tv. The brother just seemed to be making shit up….now it is that he couldn’t breathe and that is why he had to fatally shoot TM, goes against what he and his father have said in the past…. Piers did give him a hard time about Zim following martin but i’d like to know how he was screaming and getting his face smashed and getting his head smashed while TM was apparently smothering him. They keep making it up to suit their newest story. It might be on you tube..although i could only find the brothers old interview. You are right about not being able to chose family…the brother seems just as arrogant as i imagine Zim to be on the night in question….but they aren’t doing him any favours..

148. I have looked at his previous mug shot and this newer one and find his nose looks the same. In addition, his eyes are very vacant, flat affect.

     If Trayvon called for help for over 45 seconds until the shot came, Zimmerman could have kept him at bay with the gun and waited until the police came holding Trayvon there. Zimmerman had major anger issues and was physically undermined by Trayvon’s physical power over him in their tussle ,so he likely got mad and shot, i think while taking a perverse pleasure in watching Trayvon squirm in fear and call for help with a pointed gun, as payback….. In his sociopathic mind he was never in the wrong, he was protecting his neighbourhood.

     Zimmermans previous outbursts of anger include charges with the police, his ex-girlfriend filing a complaint against him, as well as his getting fired as a party watch guard where he hurt someone who was drunk and then this:

     A resident, who attended an emergency homeowner’s association meeting after the shooting on March 1, told the Huffington Post how ‘one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home.
     ‘It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics’ in his neighborhood watch role, they added.
     Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, who is leading the investigation into the shooting, and a member of the city council both attended the meeting, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. Neither were available for comment.

     http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2114152/Trayvon-Martin-shot-dead-Police-say-theres-evidence-dispute-claim-neighbourhood-watch-captain-George-Zimmerman-acted-self-defence.html

     Tapes: I’m wondering if the security tapes caught any of this in the gated community?

     911 call by Trayvon: did anyone read this was confirmed that he placed the call while Zimmerman was following him? Apparently the FBI may have this knowledge.

     • In high school I can vividly remember watching a small (maybe 5’6″ 140 lb) hispanic student attack and beat up the vice prinicipal (over 6′, 200lbs, about 40 years old.).
       In basic training for the army, we had a training event in hand to hand combat. By far the best fighter was a small african american soldier. He was by far the best at hand to hand combat, and could easily beat up much larger opponents of all races.
       The idea that Trayvon Martn could not physically overpower a larger Zimmerman is ridiculous. It is possible that a smaller man could easily out fight and overpower a much larger man.

149. It has been referenced to sounds of shifted gears in GZ’s police call. Can anyone pin point the exact moment(s) in the tape I should hear it?

     There is indeed a moment in the tape when GZ makes sounds that I can’t really grab. This is when TM passes him by:
     911 dispatcher: Yeah, we’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
     Zimmerman: OK. [1’34”] {Barely audible comment sounding like: Thanks god?!?}[1’34”] {Unidentified repetitive background noise indicating GZ moves or moves something around} These assholes, they always get away. [1’39”]
     When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. Audible windshield wiper: [1’41”]

     Is it that moment?

     • It is mentioned in the vid at post 135 about the shifting gears.

150. Now that all the amateur investigators, speculators, and busybodies on this blog have solved the crime and and through collective thoughts — willed GZ behind bars, perhaps you can now direct your energies toward resolving some other injustices against innocent black youth.

     • No one’s perfect.
       I personally thank the moderator of this blog for his great job.
       He stated his objectives. I shared the same.
       He tried hard sticking to the facts. he hasn’t let insanity percolating in and yet he accepted opposing views.

       Bravo. The beer is on me if you ever come to Portland OR.

       • Thank you! And, I may take you up on that beer the next time I’m in Portland. 🙂

     • I’m sure if you were the one who had been shot and killed, or one of your family members in this manner, you would have no problem with this website. If you don’t like it, stay off it.

     • why is Hank on here, GTFOH with that! LOL!

     • “amateur investigators, speculators and busybodies”….sounds like GZ to me

151. Did anyone notice zimmerman mentioned Trayvon was black twice? Yet he never mentions anything else twice. george says he was wearing sweatpants or jeans but never seems to feel no need to tell which is was when trayvon gets closer.The second time he mentions the suspect is black is when he says he has his hand in his waistband. Sounds like profiling to me.

     • did you also notice that he was asked by the 911 dispatcher what his race was? duh!

152. Are any of you people besides myself even putting your theory to the test of what you are hearing on those vids or are you all dead set of believeing it had to happen one way or the other? ?

153. don’t expect these vids to be there if I have a chance to make a better one. You will just have to check the channel
     

154. Yes, Ms Nila, thank goodness this case was not left under the rug. This investigation may never have happened if not for the Martin family demanding one. Corey has gathered the forensic evidence, such as how far away the bullet was fired and the location of the wound which will tell its own story.

156. Your bias is overwhelming.

     Zimmerman never could have caught Martin. By the time he even got out of his truck after Martin starts running, Martin would have been halfway home. By the time Zimmerman gets near the area where the fight and shooting occur, Martin should have been inside eating skittles and drinking tea.

     • How is that bias? Zimmerman remained on the phone a full two minutes after Martin started running and the confrontation wasn’t for another minute or two after that. Martin only had to go a couple of hundred yards to get home and that should have taken less than a minute.

     • Perhaps he thought that he had gotten away and could finish his phone call in peace. It is possible that he didn’t want GZ to know where he lived to and may have gone an alternate route.

     • Sam that is a definite possibility. Other than if TM is scared and tries to hide to make sure he lost GZ. To many open holes to base anything on other than educated guesses. However anyone who can figure out what a 17 year old is going to do given any set of circumstances is better than me.

157. http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/zimmermans-myspace-nickname-included-datniggy-family-insists-on-innocent-explanation/

     i wish they hadn’t published a photo of Zims wife for her own protection but it’s out there now. This is interesting because of the screen name Zim uses “datniggytb” and they question if the “tb” is trayvon benjamin. Of course if he has been using that name since before the shooting it is of course not a reference to Trayvon, but would be interesting to know if he changed the name after the shooting.

158. I just have to say, I have enjoyed all of the comments on this site. This may all be speculation, but this is some of the most educated speculation I have seen. No hatred either like on other sites. I’ m just glad I found it. However, I feel like I may have to educate myself just a little bit more before I make any additional comments : )

159. “you got me” was part of GZs fantasy that he was apprehending a criminal. It was created to attempt to put a confession into his victims mouth, “I am a bad guy and you got me, congratulations, captain George”…

     The next events don’t add up.
     1. DD hearing what are you doing here, to then Trayvons hoodie getting pulled by GZ, suggesting the altercation has already started. We don’t know how much she has condensed the timeline of what she heard.

     2. Now to the next witness in the time line. She hears a people arguing behind her house. This doesnt seem to fit with what sounds like a very short interchange described by DD

     3. Tracy Martin is told by Sanford police that GZ told them that, after words were exchanged, GZ reached for his phone and TM attacked him. Now, this tells us there is a BIG hole here. What was the result of the words exchanged? Why was GZ pulling out his cell phone? Was he trying to call dispatch and “tell them where he’s at”? Was TM under detainment, or otherwise why is GZ making a call? Is it suddenly a good time to order a pizza?

160. At what point does GZ realize that Trayvon was not a robber who had been killed while prowling the community? If you think about it, this John Doe was a suspicious, threatening, punk, who always gets away, in the mind of GZ, until at some point, he finds out he made a mistake.

     Trayvon, once shot, maybe gets up to run home, and falls face first in the grass. GZ jumps on his back and straddles him to secure the mission. This must be when TM says you shot me.

     GZ must realize he has to lie his way out of this quickly. They have to have a reason to put him between the buildings, so he invents the idea that he was walking through the cut through, not to chase his victim, but to see the name of the street on the other side of the cut through.

     And am I the only one who finds it ironic that the street is called Retreat View and GZ was trying to view TMs retreat?

     • I don’t think Z realized he had shot an innocent kid till the next day when the police figured out who the victim was. Up to that point Z thought his coverup story was enough and he’d be seen as a hero in his subdivision. Then when the truth comes out as to the victim was and what trayvon really was up to (walking home) then Z’s story to his dad and brother starts to change to make T look guilty and justifying that Z shot him.

       • there was a witness that said she saw zim straddling trayvons body with a hand on his back…i wonder if zim was checking him for weapons….then walked off and put his hands to his head so maybe he realised then, this kid is only carrying sweets not a gun or a knive.

161. If Trayvon really said “well you do now” (after asking Zimmerman if he had a problem) and “You got me” (after being shot), then he is at least guilty of watching too many Clint Eastwood movies.

162. Here is something jumping out that speaks to the heart of the case:

     “According to the Miami Herald, local police went to the Seminole State Attorney with a request to file charges and the police report labeled the case as “homicide/negligent manslaughter.” On Tuesday, Martin family attorney Jasmine Rand insisted Wolfinger and Lee met to overrule the decision to charge Zimmerman.

     Wolfinger denied the lawyers’ accusation in a statement Monday, saying that no “such meeting or communication occured.”

     “I am outraged by the outright lies contained in the letter by Benjamin Crump,” he said. ”

     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/trayvon-martin-case-marti_n_1422182.html?ref=trayvon-martin

163. Weird: This MySpace page,
     with the username “datniggytb,” belonged to George
     Zimmerman, who shot and killed the black teen Trayvon
     Martin on Feb. 26, 2012. The Latin proverb translates to “If
     you seek peace, prepare for war.” (Myspace / The Daily Caller)

     Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/11/zimmermans-myspace-nickname-included-datniggy-family-insists-on-innocent-explanation/#ixzz1rve9q0Ym

164. I noticed most News sources are using 7:09 as the time GZ called the SPD. Reviewing the call log does indicate the connection was at 7:09. Apparently the dispatcher created the call log at 7:11, which I mistook for the call in time.

     My bad.

     I have seen a picture of the front gate that clearly shows security cameras. Can’t find it this morning. Anyone else seen? There may well be some footage in the prosecution’s hands.

165. 

     It isn’t as clear in this pic, but there is a white video camera on the white pole. There is also a black camera pointed more to the left just below it.

     • Excellent!

166. A comparison of me on foot to George Zimmerman’s call

167. If George was driving toward the back gate my estimate would be that he drove 9 MPH

168. I am wonder about the 911 caller who recorded parts of the argument and if this is the evidence that Corey said that the press helped pull back. This is the one piece of evidence that disappeared before people got to widely view it. The FBI is supposedly viewing it. Apparently, there was speculation as to if it had come from Trayvons phone too.

169. HEre is the affidavit.
     There is nothing in it that we don’t already know.

     http://www.scribd.com/doc/89120165/Zimmerman-Probable-Cause-Document-2

170. Here is my on foot comparison . Wind speed was higher here than the time Zimmerman was following Trayvon.My conclusion is that wind speed would have had to exceed 15 mph to have the much noise if George stopped running after agreeing to stop following. I made a point of breathing heavy on one recording . I do not think it is likely he was the cause of much of the wind noise unless he is in extremely poor shape.Wind speed in Sanford was slightly lower and I waited till a good breeze was going. Have not tested following by truck. I have car problems right now.I do not believe we here the wipers . I can not test now dead battery,but if it was wipers there should be sounds at regular intervals.

     • Just a remark concerning wipers. You can only hear background noise when no one is talking. Beside that remark, your experiments are pretty interesting. Thanks

       • possibly. I can only really make an educated guess. Testing the actual vehicle would be ideal. he could have been turning the wipers on and off also. maybe you could only hear the wipers from the outside in the first place and the earlier noses were gears shifting. I think the earlier noise are him putting the truck in park and drive. Zimmerman lifts on the left side of the community. he would probably approach the club house from the left.

171. Pingback: The Facts and Zimmerman’s Story « Half Wisdom, Half Wit

172. GZ is in neighborhood watch. Neighborhood watch is the eyes and ears of the police, GZ was within his rights, and doing a good job for nieghborhood watch by following someone suspicious.

     • Click to access 0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

       Pg 25. Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

       Mr. Zimmerman took action well beyond the duties of neighborhood watch. He followed, confronted, and carried a hand gun.

     • Protecting a neighborhood excludes killing neighbors.

     • No Mark, GZ was breaking ALL the rules for being on Neighborhood Watch. I really think the HOA is looking at a lawsuit.

     • dude the question remains, why did he find Trayvon Martin suspicious….the kid was walking…there would be no one left on earth if we all got shot for walking home.

173. How’s this: As Trayvon walks by Zimmerman’s truck, Zimmerman displays his gun. Trayvon walks a ways, trying to act casual, then breaks into a run.
     Now he’s scared stiff and looks for a place to hide, not unusual for a kid whose scared. Zimmerman comes and hunts him down and shoots him.

     I don’t know about those injuries, he could have left home with them, who knows? After all he wasn’t observed. Maybe Trayvon saw blood in the car?
     That really would be scary eh? A stalker in a car bleeding? You’d be thinking “Friday 13 Freddy Kruger”.

174. seems like in the 4 minutes GZ was on the phone, TM could have easily gone home. Instead, they fight closer to GZ’s truck than the place where TM was staying. Who was following who?

     • I think most people realize this — Zimmermans father could have been describing the time after George got off the phone He might not have been telling the truth about that. While he was on the phone he could have been cutting Trayvon off. He saw Trayvon as a stranger there,not someone staying in the area. Zimmerman mentions Trayvon is heading toward the back gate. He had no way of knowing where trayvon was going but could have imagined that is where he would try to get away.

       • But there are houses back that way, someone lives there. So, it’s obvious that GZ doesn’t believe that TM could possibly live in this community at all. He’s certain that TM is a criminal looking to commit some crime. But what crime could or would TM commit, if he was a criminal? With someone following him, GZ still fears that a crime is in the works?

         Why does Zimmerman refuse the opportunities to identify himself and ask questions? He’s the one breaking the rules, he hasn’t witnessed any crime. So, for all he knows, if the police arrive, after asking a few simple questions TM will be permitted to leave, since there’s nothing at all to charge him with, except the possibility of trespass. I wonder if people who live in the surrounding area, use these paths as a shortcut, instead of going all the way around the community?

         Obviously there’s a lot more we need to know. The trial will be very interesting.

175. I think there were 3 people involved in the struggle. GZ, TM and t-shirt man (John?) because the knocking you hear on the 911 tape was GZ alerting t-shirt man that he needed help in tracking TM. T shirt goes out onto his dark back patio and then sees the altercation and jumps in before yelling he’ll call 911 and running into his house. The young witness who saw a red shirt on the bottom and a white t-shirt on top didn’t notice TM in dark clothing in the middle. At that point I think t-shirt man was trying to break it up and that is why he was involved. Anyway, whoever came out with the flashlight right after the shooting before the cops got there has to have been the one with the white t-shirt on and knew beforehand who fired the shot and what was going on. Otherwise are you going to grab a flashlight and run out into the darkness right after you’ve heard a shot right in your backyard if you didn’t know who or what was out there?

     • jon yes exactly, that is what i have been thinking and it’s been doing my head in. cheers

     • Gee, this fits my “premeditated” scenario work up see further on down.
       So now we may have T-shirt man involved. Perhaps he called Zim to let him know that TM was on his way out, and GZ should get ready.

       So as to make the wounds with a razor or knife, seem as fresh as possible, he needs a call from someone at the 711 to let them know TM is on his way back. Then GZ prepares the wounds and gets down to the front gate.

       The “wrench” in the works would be that it starts raining heavily, so TM doesn’t simply come straight in as he should. His 4 to 5 minute pause at the front gate, throws the expected timing off. So that probably accounts for why the story about what happens in that area had to be modified. But it’s hard to do a good job of modifying a story once you’ve rehearsed it.

       With someone to help, GZ could have shot TM anywhere and dragged the body around, trying to get things back on track with a script already prepared. GZ then lays in the grass with his head on the concrete, not wanting to mess up his head wound. and t-shirt man briefly jumps on top of him, then get’s off and moves quickly back into the shadows.

       Or maybe t-shirt man was there to slice GZ’s head and mess him around?

       In any event things are getting stranger and stranger.

       About the only thing that does seem clear is that GZ wasn’t about winding hostilities down. If he wanted to do that, he’d have simply identified himself. Plus, I don’t for a second buy that GZ didn’t know where TM lived, so many lies are told, that will have to wait for more credible confirmation. Just like everything else in this case.

     • Jon, The white T shirt observation is definitely something to consider. For one, what are the chances that someone would be lingering outside in the rain dressed like that, unless it was someone who heard the scuffle and then ventured outside to take a look.

       • Good point.

176. After listening to the 911 tape several times a few questions come to mind. Why did Trayvon run? Some will suggest because he felt guilty becasue he
     was “up to no good” (Zimmerman’s description). Thinking back to my youth and a moment when I ran was because I was scared out of my wits. I had seen and heard something that scared me. It also appears that Zimmerman was running and was told by the dispatcher ,”We do not need you to do that”. I believe Mr. Zimmerman did stop and return to his truck. On the tape, he says “Oh crap, I do not want to get an (inaudible word but sounds like alarm). I don’t know where this kid is”. I am assuming he is refering to the door alarm of his truck. There remains several more minutes on the tape where Mr. Zimmerman agrees to meet the police at the mailboxes near the clubhouse, but then ask to have the police call him when they arrive. Here is where I believe Mr. Zimmerman had decided he was not going to meet the police but was going to try and find Trayvon and alert the police to Trayvon’s location, at the very least or confront him. The problem is while Mr. Zimmerman believes the young man was up to no good, I believe, this may also have been what Trayvon was thinking about Mr. Zimmerman and this is what caused him to run. It is night, raining and a truck sitting along the road with a male inside watching as Trayvon passes. This assumption seems to be correct from the phone conversation Trayvon was having during this time that this man was following him. It appears Trayvon thought he had lost him and was no longer running, but his girlfriend suggests he run. Why? Because Trayvon was “up to no good” or because she had some concern about a man following Trayvon and wanted him to be safe. One thing is clear. Trayvon was where he was suppose to be..along a path toward his home. Mr Zimmerman was not..as in at the mailboxes in his truck. Anderson Cooper interviewed a witness that supposedly saw the whole thing as much as possible ..it was dark and he was inside his home watching through a back window and did not observe the whole encounter. Mr Cooper ask him who was on top during the struggle. The witness stated it was not so much a struggle as two men, one on top of the other “I would have to say it was the larger man because after the larger man got off there was a boy on the ground. He did say that they were not on the sidewalk but on the grass. If they were wresling on the ground..how did Zimmerman get to his gun? Or was it drawn already and they were fighting for the possession? The screams heard in the background were from a person that was terrified. Who has the most reason to scream..the one with the gun or the one seeing a gun? Mr. Zimmerman’s rush to judgement was the cause of this young man’s death. Though I tend to doubt some of Mr. Zimmerman’s statements (if they can be believed from media outlets) because they do not seem to add up..I am glad there will be a trial and he will be afforded that which he denied Trayvon. A fair judgement of his actions.

     • “One thing is clear. Trayvon was where he was suppose to be..along a path toward his home. Mr Zimmerman was not.” Well said Virginia.

     • Also, we now know that GZ says, after TM turned around and fell, GZ pounced on top of him. If so, then this witness only saw GZ getting up off of an already dead TM.

177. I wonder if zimmerman smokes. That could be him taking a drag of a cig after he says he ran then him getting another cig right after.Or it could just be a sigh of frustration.It could be breathing from running also. It does sound like gears shifting early on but the noise right after he shuts the door sounds like it might be a wiper. I am not sure if he ran or drove while on the phone but he had to be moving fast even after he agrees to not follow..

178. The whole looking for an address story makes no sense. George was on the phone over 4 minutes and gave no address . He had over a minute 45 seconds to find an address. While running he should have gone at least 150 feet. That still leaves over a minute to find an address. There was no hesitation when he agreed to stop so that shows his mind probably was made up if not to find that address than to cut Trayvon off. Maybe he was in rough shape after a beating as they say,but his mind was racing trying to think of a way to talk himself out of this so rather than just stay put he paces about. He had time to go the length of a couple of buildings on foot to cut trayvon off if he wanted to. Zimmerman says he ran at one point indicating that he probably lost sight of him when he went between the building and Zimmerman could have still been running twice as long or even longer than Trayvon did.

     • Yankee, I enjoy reading your viewpoints. I agree, the address excuse makes no sense, and is pitifully weak IMO. Here he lived in a small gated community for two years and didn’t know by first glance where he was!? He volunteered to be Retreat View NW Captain and was given written and verbal instructions only to be on the look out and report any suspicious activity and then wait for the police to arrive. The National Sheriff’s Assoc (NSA) says to not even carry a gun while on NW. Interesting that the NSA states this NW is not even registered with the NSA. After his call to SFD to inform of this assumed suspicious activity is when he placed himself in the position of NW captain by being on the alert and reporting. It was when GZ left his SUV with his gun in pursuit of TM’s whereabouts (while being on the phone to dispatch) he broke all the rules of NW and was then he acted the role as a vigilante by taking the law into his own hands. .

       NSA confirms Retreat View not registered with them. .

       http://trayvonmartinmurdercase.blogspot.com/2012/03/national-sheriffs-association-statement.html

       Here is what The Community Volunteer Coordinator who serves on behalf of Sanford police neighborhood crime watches, has to say.

       • @Caroline: Thanks, great article!

         Just what I’ve been saying, GZ was engaged in conducting a criminal act, once he left his car. He had already broken the NW rules, but that was excusable, since one can’t know when they’re going to spot a suspicious person. So, just having his firearm with him in the car, was excusable!
         But his following, in any way, was not! He should never have done anything that would have caused TM to suspect that he was being followed, since by doing so with a firearm on him, he’s breaking the rules and the law, even if he doesn’t exit his car.

         The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.”

         Now add the fact that NW is posted on a large sign at the entrance! I’m pretty sure TM had seen it over the course of time. So, at first I don’t think he was scared that he was being followed, because he could easily think that perhaps this was NW (of course, as the article points out and GZ had to know, Patrol is another program entirely. NW’s do not do patrols! Even if Taaffe thinks they do.)

         Okay, so The Right Honorable RZ says (and we can believe him right?), that his son told him, that he had told TM, that he wasn’t following him, when TM came over and asked! GZ did not issue a challenge, did not offer to identify himself or explain what he was doing, he simply lied, then continued to follow while armed. Then, when he’s arrested, he tries to explain that he’s NW, as to imply that’s what he was doing. If that is what he thought he was doing, he was engaging in the commission of a crime!
         As the NSA informs, and who should know better?

         SYG, is not for the protection of individuals during the commission of a crime! GZ should know that ignorance is no excuse for the law! Not that he was ignorant of the law, but he’ll probably try to claim it, given the givens.

       • From the article above, that Caroline posted, we see that there are two components to the NSA’s program. There are Watchers who do not patrol, and there are Patrols. GZ was not assigned patrol duties, only watch. Yet he was undertaking the acts of patrolling, and doing so unlawfully! Thus he became a criminal, the minute he caused an innocent person (even if suspicious) concern enough for their own personal safety, that they would express it by having to run! That is where GZ became a criminal! Even before he left his car he was engaging in an activity clearly prohibited by law, according to the NSA.

       • @Lonnie, it says it all doesn’t it. IMO George Zimmerman is very crafty but tries to play ignorant and I wonder how he will get himself out of this one.

179. The theory of “john” as the white-t-shirt guy helping GZ in the scuffle doesn’t hold water.
     The reason is that the teacher who called 911 for 14min hasn’t seen him in the fight. Instead she is shocked that he wouldn’t help TM while the whole action happened just 3 feet from his patio.

     Let me give some details here…
     The teacher calls 911 and while on the phone, she hears GZ admitting of shooting TM. She then falls in a state of shock when she realizes that TM is a kid. From her own words, she says the boy was calling for help and no body, including her, would go help him. Because of that he is now dead.

     One interesting part of her long call is when she describes where the struggle happened. She says, that it was right behind her window, 12 feet from her, across the path. But, she also states that it was 3 feet from the porch of her neighbor across the back path. This can only be “John”‘s porch. She specifically refers to that neighbor when saying that it all happened just 3 feet from him and he wouldn’t help.

     We also know from “John”‘s 911 call that he indeed he wouldn’t help. He just said it straight: “I’m not going to help”. He also said that he asked to stop, locked his door and went upstairs to call 911. This is the now famous “Holy shit!!!” moment.

     What it all tells me is that “John” indeed opened his back door to check what was going on. He saw the two strangers fighting on the ground with TM on top. He asked them to stop but it was directed to both. he then followed with a threat of having police coming to arrest them both. By the time he called 911, TM was shot dead. The teacher refers to her witnessing of “John” non-intervention.

     It all leaves open the question about the nature of the knocking we can hear from GZ’s police call.

     I believe GZ is outside all the time after his chasing of TM. We can indeed hear cars/trucks passing not too far in the last minute of the call. We can’t hear car passing noises during the first 2 minutes leading to his “Shit!!! He’s running”. Instead, we hear wipers. So, after he said “he ran”, GZ knocks on something(s) maybe to scare the kid who, he believes, is hiding somewhere near (cf. “I don’t know where this kid is.”). That would fit with the fact that GZ wasn’t on any simple way from/to an address look up as he claimed to police.

     The white t-shirt is also a mystery to solve. Is it TM without his dark gray sweater? Is it GZ’s light green t-shirt mistakenly seen white? Is it TM’s dark gray hoodie perceived as white?

     • I only found value in the school teacher’s 911 call. It’s the only one that showed true emotion in my opinion.

       John’s call creeped me out a bit. Something didn’t add up even before tapping was heard at the end of George’s 911 call. Has anybody asked how John could have pronounced Trayvon dead from inside his apartment while running around? I understand other callers said they thought Trayvon was dead too but the way John said it seemed super hollow yet very knowing.

       • john seemed shocked….he told zim to stop, on his way upstairs to call 911 he heard a shot. When he looked out and realised TM was dead he was shocked….he told zim to STOP…shit, someone is dead…shit shit shit. The woman that said “john” wouldn’t help didn’t see all of it….john may have left to call 911 by then. He already admits he was out there.

       • hence the two pops at least two or three heard. one male caller said it otherwise had to be a rocket.

       • the teacher could have seen john. the first flashlight wasn’t an officer. john came out to see it. and john told the media he would do the same as zimmerman.

         the teacher mentions a flashlight before she recognizes the police. i’ll need to check this, though.

     • I think both the teacher & john show guilt for not having the courage to intervene. In the case of the teacher, it shows up as a total meltdown. In that of John, it’s more his nervous tone when admitting that he isn’t going to help.
       We have two “opposite” characters here. The teacher sounds like a older lady. While John is a young man. He was actually few weeks away from marrying the owner of the house he was in when that all happen. http://registry.weddingchannel.com/coupledir/20123/G/R322092284/JOHNATHAN_GOOD_AND_AMANDA_SELJAN.htm.

       • Good finding that link, tchoupi.cailou.

     • I still think the white t shirt belongs to whoever ran outside and spoke to GZ right after the shooting but before the cop showed up. I think t shirt was only out there for a moment or two at the very beginning of the confrontation then ran inside to call the cops. The school teacher didn’t look out her window until after t shirt was away from the struggle. One thing for sure is that there is so much forensic evidence with this case it will be very revealing as to exactly what happened when the evidence is all released to the public during the trial.

       • In other words, I still feel white t shirt is the John guy. I Still feel John knew who GZ was. Maybe he wasn’t trying to physically break up a fight between GZ and TM but I still feel he was standing close enough to the scuffle to be taken as one of the fighters by witnesses, the one wearing the white t shirt. Remember that the young boy witness saw white ontop of red, no mention of the dark clothing that TM had on. I feel this is where John was close enough to be blocking out TM. When the school teacher looks out she sees GZ ontop of a dead TM. John had already run into his house to call 911 right before she looks out

         • For some reason, I think there is some sort of witness John and George Zimmerman connection.

       • yep for sure…..john came out cause zimmerman was knocking on his door, maybe he originally tried to help zim hold martin thinking the kid must have done something wrong, that could be white t-shirt guy, then he said i’m calling the cops and went back in. He has to know zimmerman, maybe his was one of the voices (zim has a highish voice, johns voice is quite deep) that the witness said she heard yelling. I really really think zim knows this witness. If he came out with a flash light and was talking to zimmerman (as per the lady witness said on tv),then where was he when the cops arrived..why had he disapeared. I wonder if he told the cops he went outside with a flash light before they arrived. It’s crazy. Hope they investigate this link.

       • teacher heard louder voices than her kitchen tv. she wondered who would be out there unless walking a dog b/c it’s pouring rain. she looked and cried, “those men.” she saw what looked like the start of a scuffle between “men.” she cried, “what are they doing.”

         and she also stated that she did not want to be a witness or nothing. so, there you go.

         john couldn’t have helped b/c of the tag team effort with SPD & Retreat’s neighborhood watch startup. a telling fact is that John & and at least one other neighbor that called 911 (plus the 1st responder knew beforehand that Trayvon was already dead). No CPR attempt on Trayvon until 2nd officer/unit arrived. how come?

180. Yea I lean toward believing zimmerman was on foot now after listening several times. It sounds more like a wiper sound at 2:16 and the 4 short breaths in a row at 2:38 after he says he ran. I still think you hear gears shifting early on. George lived on the west side of the neighborhood which means he could have seen Trayvon going behind the clubhouse from the left side and been moving towards Trayvon as he approached from the right side of the clubhouse.I think you only hear wiper sounds because the door is opened.Any one have any other ideas about the sounds when the wind stops? I lean toward Zimmerman cutting Trayvon off as he did not even seem to hesitate when he agreed to stop following because he was not flowing after the firsst few seconds.he was cutting him off. I lean toward it being Trayvon knocking on a door . I noticed it is the defense fighting to keep the records sealed. They may want to put their own spin on whats in those records because it looks bad for them. Thats my suspicion anyway.

181. George could have went south past 2 buildings.Cuts over to the east. Has Trayvon cut off. He goes all the way to retreat circle. trayvon could be knocking on a door just north of him. Trayvon cuts over to between the buildings-goes north. Zimmerman goes straight ahead-north -then west heads to between the buildings.-cuts Trayvon off again .

182. Trayvon could have made the mistake of thinking Zimmerman would try coming up behind him if he was following and not be cutting him off so he sees no one behind him after he goes to the middle of the buildings keeps talking on the phone and suddenly finds Zimmerman is ahead of him.

183. You know, it could be that there’s another racist in the community working with Zimmerman, who helped set Martin up. That’s another possiblity that hasn’t been explored.

     • It’s possible or maybe not, no way to know unless someone looks for it.
       The place to look would probably be to start with Zimmerman’s phones.
       My guess is (if this were true) he’d have received a call from someone in a position to see Trayvon leave home, and give Z a call to prepare.

       A call would then go to 7-11 where someone there (a worker?) would be asked to notify when Trayvon leaves. So, if the calls were logged as calls usually are by the software that runs them, there’d be a small flurry of calls between the people involved. Of course, at this late date it’s hard to say that any logs would still be preserved.

       I guess I just got a little paranoid when I see people saying things in Zimmerman’s favor that are very unlikely to have occurred that way, then asserting that they had run away and didn’t see much of anymore importance. It’s more natural for people (especially men) to watch altercations, not turn away and miss the action. Could it be this guy doesn’t want to say very much, because he doesn’t know much about what Zimmerman will be saying? But he knows that it will be at odds with what he actually saw? That would be my guess, so far.

       That aside, Z seems to be saying that he shot Trayvon, while he was still on his back on the ground. Then again he seems to be trying to say that he shot Trayvon when they were both standing. Obviously both of these conditions cannot be true. But the wound path will eliminate one of them.
       But, as some have said, they weren’t both standing again, until after the supposed attack, and the danger it represented, had abated.

184. Guys, you have to listen to what the “John”, the teacher and the female caller at 1231 Twin Trees Ln have said on tape.

     I’ll start with 1231 TTL. She said she saw white t-shirt on top. So, that means white t-shirt was part of the struggle.

     I’ll go then with “John”. He said that he told them to stop, locked his door and went upstairs to call 911. On his way up he heard the gunshot. During the call, he looks through his window and sees the guy on top now laying on the grass and he believes he’s dead.

     So, it is indeed possible “John” was outside helping GZ with holding TM until Police comes. But, in this case, he had to lie on the 911 call when he says that he is not going to help.

     The other hypothesis, and it sounds more natural to me, is that “john” heard the cries right behind his door, open the door, sees two strangers in a scuffle, asks them to stop and goes upstairs to call 911.

     The teacher his the best witness we have (apart from an elderly who never called 911 but who’s account fits well the teacher’s). She heard two men arguing outside, then there was a short pause, and the arguing came up again. She then looked outside thought her window and saw TWO men in a scuffle. She even says that there was not much movement but she wouldn’t say who’s who. At no time she saw a 3rd person.

     The flash light guy can only be Officer Smith. There is no time for a 3rd person to come and disappear before Smith arrives. And the Officer saw no body else but TM and GZ.

     • Thanks (again) for the witness breakdown!

185. interesting that when zimmerman apologised he was silly enough to say he didn’t know how young Martin was and he thought he was a little younger than him…..but on the SPD tape he told them he looks in his late teens…oops

     • Did George Zimmerman lie under oath already?!? That’s also what I’m suggesting in the posting’s update section – Nice observation!

       I was on a slight DVR delay but as soon as I heard Zimmerman say he thought Trayvon Martin was just a few years younger than him, I tweeted…

       https://twitter.com/#!/bcclist/status/193382510359613440

       • I took note to that too! First thing popped in my mind was “wait, he said late teens in the 911 call” The highest you can go in teens is 19 so that would make TM 9 years younger! This guy is an idiot! If the prosecutions can not break him on the stand they are weak!

       • “Did George Zimmerman already lie under oath?!?”

         You betcha!!! Just this morning I heard on the news that he said he thought Trayvon was about his own age. And yes, I remember that he said “in his late teens”, but that was when his efforts were directed at making him look as suspicious as he possibly could. Now that it’s a bail hearing, he has to roll back that effort, to make it appear that age was not a part of his calculations.

         Goes without saying that you can easily see how Zimmerman wends and winds his story, in an effort to get around and/or satisfy NW rules, he’s supposed to know nothing about, despite having taken the SPD’s 14 hour course on NW, being appointed captain, and therefore expected to pass those same rules on to newer members. So you quickly realize that Zimmerman’s story of that night is chock full of contrivance!

         Glad to see you caught it too1

186. warning..zims head before it was cleaned up

     

     there is some blood but heads do bleed a lot, still hard to see how bad the abrasions were

     • I hope Trayvon was able to get in a few good punches/head smashes to a guy that was illegally stalking him!

       • Seems to me that Zimmerman’s only real opportunity to get these wounds would have been at home, before he started out. He couldn’t very well tell what would happen at the scene, so any wounds needed would have to be prepared in advance.

         Now, what makes me postulate that is: There’s no evidence on Trayvon, that he engaged in any fight with Zimmerman. There’s only Zimmerman’s word, and that word goes from “struggle for the gun” to “broke my nose with a punch”. But either or both of those activities would have left them both with marks on their bodies, major marks. Marks that could not be missed by an experienced mortician or the morgue staff.

         My guess is that this will be part of the prosecutors case!

     • My husband had a two inch gash head wound in almost the same spot which bled a little and required stitches.

187. http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849 hmmmmm could this be john…sounds almost like he knows zims wife…..a witness who heard but did not see took this photo of zimmermans head (why?? getting their story straight) and that zimmerman asked them to call his wife, when asked what to say, “just tell her i shot somebody”…….don’t know if zimmerman gave the person his wifes number but some of us here suspect john and zimmerman knew each other so this could be interesting.

     • Exactly! I mentioned this in the update but then got to thinking…

       Would the defense really want “John’s” picture of Zimmerman’s bloodied head going public when sleuths like us on this blog posting already have questions about this “John” witness?

       • the pix was an ABC exclusive. i’ve heard ABC paid Casey Anthony’s defense bill 2k. A revelation from her atty on a news talk show.

         i will guess teacher was already on the phone w/ possibly another dispatcher, which explains why she missed the actual shooting. How can John go upstairs … the furthest distance in his place for a phone? John may have been there throughout. Speculation, of course.

       • This picture sounds fishy to me. I think it was released for its shock value effect and to gain sympathy from Zimmerman supporters. Incidentally, if the photo was taken with a digital camera it would not be allowed as evidence in court as they are very easy to alter. Is it also a fact if a photo as this was taken by Sanford police detectives it would never be allowed to go viral before the actual trial?

         • I haven’t read up much on the picture of Zimmerman’s bloodied head but I thought I saw something that said it was taken with an iPhone and there’s an accurate time/date stamp? Not sure though.

           • It was also gps enabled so there’s location data as well.

             But, it appears to contradict Zimmerman’s claims that his head was bloodied by being bashed repeatedly on concrete, then rolled around in the grass during a fight for life with Trayvon.

             I think the defense will probably object to having it entered as evidence.
             Because it doesn’t support their stor(y)(ies).

188. Questions about the bloody head photo releasted today…

     If Zimmerman’s head had been upright, it would have dripped straight down… It looks like the blood ran when zimmerman’s head was facing down, which makes it seem he must have been on top of Trayvon after the injury.

     • Interesting — thank you!

       • Very good observation Toneii. Also, why didn’t Zimmerman have defense wounds on his hands. If TM were on top of him, wouldn’t GZ use his hands to try to get TM off? But there were no hand wounds on GZ and per the coroner, TM had no scratches or abrasions on his face. Only a bulletwound to his chest. Wouldn’t he have some scratches from GZ fighting him off in this so called life or death struggle?

         • Trayvon Martin’s autopsy report will definitely answer a lot of questions regarding his wrestling match, fight, etc. with Zimmerman.

     • toneii, this comment of yours hadn’t been published yet when i made my comments below but you are absolutely right, that makes a lot more sense than my scenario. I didn’t think the blood looked like it had flowed that way had he been laying on his back in a struggle and i think your scenario is a good one.

       • My bad. 🙂

189. well, apparently zim had a flashlight on him too….those head injuries are little cuts, maybe he got “john” to whack him on the back of the head with the torch before he got him to take photos…..why did he get the witness to take the photos just after he had shot a kid, didn’t take him long to start covering his ass, didn’t he have more important things to think of than collecting evidence of his injuries.

     • I won’t go as far as to say Zimmerman was smart enough to fake his wrestling injury by having another person beat him up at the crime scene – like the 25th Hour (great movie!) – but I can’t say the thought didn’t cross my mind. I would definitely like to see as much crime scene/police car surveillance video and pics as possible!

       And, there better be a lot more crime scene photos coming from that witness. A lot more photos. And, not just of Zimmerman’s supposed broken nose. Otherwise, I’ll be very suspicious.

       • yeah i agree its a bit far fetched but i couldn’t understand how the blood wasn’t smeared during a struggle, it all looks too neat with a flow of blood trickling down and off to the side. I have now seen toneii’s post above and think that is a really good explanation. Don’t understand why he got this witness to take a photo though, isn’t that the job of the police? cheers

190. sorry, another comment. If he got those injuries while on his back on the ground, struggled to get his head off the sidewalk and onto the grass, was then smothered and was fighting for a gun……why isn’t the blood smeared over the back of his head? Why does it look like he got the injuries whilst in the position he is posing in for this photo? his head is forward, the blood is trickling down and off to the side, certainly doesn’t look like he had those injuries while he was struggling on his back, never heard of blood trickling upwards before.

191. Those new pics certianly suggest a scuffle. But that’s not news on this blog.

     I happen to believe the State will submit that the screaming was that of Trayvon Martin. If proved, that means Trayvon gave up the fight for more than 40 seconds. Mr. Zimmerman continued to fight to point the gun and shoot the 17-year old.

     That, IMHO, would be more than reasonable to convict on Murder 2 charges.

     Pretty cold blooded if you ask me. And in keeping with Mr. Zimmerman’s “snapping” and “losing it.”

     • Well said! And, Stand Your Ground doesn’t apply if you’re doing something illegal like stalking somebody (even after being told to stop).

       • Certainly if the screams prove to be Trayvon then Z is toast. The simplest legal construction of what happened is it was a fight. In fights both parties enter the fight voluntarily and both are permitted to leave when they “tap out.” Likewise both are responsible for the outcome. In this case manslaughter minimum. If Z continued the fight after Trayvon tapped out.

192. Read GZ’s grilling by Prosecutor Del La Rionda. It gets spicy at the end.

     http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/excerpts-from-george-zimmermans-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents-prosecutors-questions/2012/04/20/gIQAN4bDWT_story.html

     • Thanks for posting this. I hadn’t read any of his direct questioning before now. It sounds like George was feeling pretty confident by the end. It was totally inappropriate for him to apologize. When I first read that he told the parents that he didn’t know whether Martin was armed or not, it seemed like an odd admittance. It is almost as if he implies that he went back for the gun at some point. I hope that there is video of some part of this incident. I hope that Florida can show that the voice of victim will be heard. If they can’t sort it out, it means this law will also protect those with criminal intent.

       • I guess Zimmerman was (stupidly) responding to Trayvon’s family who wanted him to specifically answer the following…

         1) Why did you stalk somebody so young?
         2) Did you know Trayvon was unarmed?

         Instead of answering the family’s questions on his website or through lawyers, Zimmerman spoke on the stand (and then lied under oath). I’d HATE to be Mark O’Mara — what a pain in the ass client.

       • so zim thought trayvon was going to kill him and that he might be armed….if he was armed and wanted to kill you why didn’t he pull out his weapon and kill you then instead of trying to smother you to death and fighting over your gun. nup, doesn’t make sense.

193. Nice pix from GZ’s head. I wonder who could have been with him 3min after the gunshot while Officers were already there? This is really confusing. I may have to reconsider my views on “John”.

194. Would venture to say like this blood looks like it has already been wiped off and that this is the second flow. Reason is the edges all look so clear. Anytime I have ever had a cut of any significance there is always a main channel. With drippage. Then after the blood starts to slow down then it spreads. Like here. First flow is always a lot messier.

     • Well they also said that this pic was taken 3 minutes after the incident so that would mean that someone was outside almost immediately trying to clean George up. This is all too confusing to me. George says that he didn’t think TM was hurt and that was why he was straddling him after the shot. The woman witness said that after she heard the shot, she saw GZ pacing back and forth as if he was worried (he knew he did something wrong). She also said GZ’s hands were on his head so the blood should be smeared and on his hands. There has to be another 3rd party who was involved and has not come forth. If I heard a shot outside, I would be hesitant to run out and see what’s going on especially if it was as dark as everyone says. Maybe John cleaned him up and jetted out. The main question should be whether or not GZ blood is on the pavement and if it is smeared all the way to TM’s body. Also, isn’t it convenient that this photo leaked the day of his bail hearing? We should have seen this back when the police station video leaked.

       • So what if GZ had a few cuts on his head. TM had a bullet hole in the chest. GZ was stalking TM. All this bull about GZ using the stand your ground law is rubbish. You don’t pursue someone, creep that person out, then claim stand your ground when the scared, pursued person stands their ground. The cuts weren’t that bad. Seems as if maybe he got his head bumped alittle bit during the initial “struggle” then after the shooting the wounds had started bleeding enough to start trickling blood. Didn’t even need stitches. And why not snap a pic of the broken nose that was causing blood to gush into GZ’s throat per GZ’s brothers account? And it was pitch dark out there so how could TM see that GZ had a concealed gun on him if GZ hadn’t threatened TM with it? Even if GZ’s jacket came open during the “struggle” and he were on his back with TM on top. How could GZ even have seen that TM noticed the gun.

         Gz’s story about looking for an address is rubbish too. You don’t need to go inbetween townhomes on a dark path that leads between the back of them to find an address. There isn’t going to be any address there. Also no need to walk across the cut through sidewalk to the other street to find an address. That’s not where your truck is and where the police are going to meet you. Just get an address from the front of one of the townhomes where your truck is parked near. There was no need for GZ to go down the cut through sidewalk.

         GZ’s apology was self serving. I really think he still believes all this will just go away. He told the dispatcher the suspicious person was late teens. During his apology he said a few years younger than himself. Even that story is changing to benefit himself. Oh, I didn’t know it was a teenager I was defending myself against!

         Also, notice how his family members have gone quiet once they realized they were giving conflicting stories.

195. The talk about the fight is pure fiction! In wrestling over control of a gun, both parties realize they’re in a fight for their very lives. They go all out and their death like grips and other actions, leave serious marks, bruises, fabric burns, scrapes, twists, tears, scratches etc., all over one another and especially bruises on the wrists. These things are not in evidence! So, no such things occurred in fact, but only as artifacts in Zimmerman’s story, as he struggles to bring his own actions in line with, or excuse his violations of watch rules.

     What happened that night should have never occurred if Zimmerman had obeyed the rules he was given, with his command of the neighborhood watch!
     There was no pressing need for Zimmerman to do anything more than make a phone call to 911, to get police to come investigate.

     There was no pressing or immediate need to apprehend Trayvon, since neither Zimmerman nor anyone else can claim that Trayvon had committed any crime from which he might be trying to escape! A “suspicious person” is not a criminal, nor is mere suspicion a reason for a law abiding citizen to interfere with or follow another person, as police directives point out.

     Since Zimmerman took it upon himself to do more than required, and take actions he knew were prohibited, based on his merely having sighted a suspicious person, then Zimmerman becomes an aggressor from that point on! It is Zimmerman’s own acts of aggression that lead to this tragedy!

     Trayvon had not even trespassed on anyone’s property! Yet, he winds up being killed by Zimmerman, because Zimmerman refuses to leave him alone!

     Zimmerman needs to be made an example and held responsible for his failure to heed the rules he was given.

196. I have noted in NW materials that the leader is supposed to establish a “call tree”, of people who he notifies or notify him when there is a suspicious person or activity happening, this is in addition to notifications to the police.

     It’s easy to see that Zimmerman’s claim of having come out of his house, just moments before Trayvon enters the estates on his way home, on a sudden need to shop. The nearest thing I can imagine to a timeline, would have Zimmerman leaving his house, during the heaviest part of the rain, while Trayvon was waiting under the awning, which is also where Zimmerman did not see him.

     Since Trayvon has waited and only left shelter, after the rain slows, to see him where he was walking, Zimmerman has to leave his garage within half a minute or so. Because it’s only about 300 feet?

     If Zim leaves a minute or two earlier, or a minute or two later, he completely misses any view of Trayvon. So it’s a pretty darned narrow window in time that he “coincidentally” occupies, that sets these things in motion. Yet, Zimmerman is there right on time! Would this have happened if Trayvon had dwaddled at the store for another minute or two, or left the store 2 minutes earlier? Only if Zimmerman had spotters, could he possibly arrange to meet Trayvon, short of parking his car near the front gate around 7pm and waiting, in the rain, with no idea that anyone would be out walking. But that would be “patrolling” wouldn’t it? And that would bring all those pesky rules in!

197. The wounds in the picture, supposely taken at the scene by “John” don’t look minutes old to me. Besides the head appears to be shaved around that area.

     The state investigator can’t say who started the “fight”, probably because they can’t say that any such fight even took place! This answer appears so truthful that it appears they have Zimmermans goose already cooked! Because the state, it appears, will not be relying on who started the altercation, to make their case. Just my take.

198. Will, I wondered the same thing when I saw it posted and here was my response on MSN:

     Whose this strange person that came up to George minutes after the shooting and took photos of his bloody head…where’s photo of the bloody broken nose?! How is it they also managed to see ‘visible gun powder residue’ on Trayvon’s hoodie?! When was this person able to see that? Because initial reports are that Trayvon was face down in the grass after being shot…would’ve only been turned over after the officer arrived and began CPR…and if this person was that close, then it says they hadn’t properly secured the crime scene. Is it same witness that claims to have seen Trayvon on top of George, which I’m not saying isn’t likely if he were defending himself. Oh, and first thing you say to this stranger is, “call my wife tell her I just shot somebody”?! So who does wifey call?! Daddy! Guess that would explain how he may have used his influence as former judge to get DA involved so quickly…But like the rest of us, I’m just speculating!

     • Good point Tina. I forgot all about TM being face down after the shot. I read another article here at

       http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

       and it says that GZ said that TM turned and fell face down after being shot in the chest. If there was gun powder on his hoodie, this iphone guy would have had to check the body and then put him back face down before the police arrived. It will be interesting to hear this person’s testimony especially since it doesn’t really align with GZ’s story.

       • Everyone keeps forgetting that everything out there was wet, including Zim and Trayvon, the concrete and the grass. How a wet hoodie picks up powder burns I just can’t figure out.

       • Thanks for the link…you know, something that’s usually found to be true when you have a situation of having to take someone’s word over another when the other person isn’t able to give their version…is that in the end, it comes out that the very comments the victim is supposed to have uttered, have been infact changed up to suit the accused’s version of events and actually said by them. Trayvon is supposed to have said, “ok, you got it”?! what sense does that make…if he was able to say anything after being shot, I’d be willing to bet he said, “oh, you shot me!”. George told his father and brother that when Trayvon saw his gun, he supposedly said, “You’re gonna die tonight”, again, I believe that’s what George said to him.

199. This is an excellent blog. Thanks No Longer. I anticipate reading posts daily.

     • Thanks! That means a lot.

200. The Facts and Zimmerman’s Story

     Another blog on this case. Comment #10 is from jd. Very reasonable scenario about Zimmerman’s alleged pursuit of Trayvon.

     FYI.

201. Now nearly a month later, with more tapes published, let’s have another look.

     Every map so far shows TM going down the path. One shows GZ standing at the top of the path to finish his 911 call.

     A big issue is being made of the missing minute or two…… why could TM not have run home while GZ was still yapping on the phone?

     Because that is not how it started.

     SCENARIO covering the claimed “facts” AND the missing minutes:

     1) GZ could not have been inside the complex when he first saw TM. IF he was on his way out where he called from, he could have observed TM only a short distance from the complex entrance to the clubhouse, no time for him to be acting suspiciously.
     2) he tells 911 TM is staring at him and approaching him. BUT TM asks him Why are you following me? which he could not say if GZ was just parked ahead of him ( ie where he had not yet walked). As he had just entered the complex, GZ must have followed him IN, therefore had to be OUTSIDE when he first noticed TM walking towards the complex……..then driven past him and stopped to make the call.
     3) after the talk with TM, he says “he is running” towards the other (southern) gate. This makes sense, as that is where TM was staying. NOTHING about him being on the footpath behind the buildings, just “running”.
     4) GZ sounds breathless and in pursuit ON THE ROADWAY. Maybe just jogging or walking fast. TM cuts in between houses to be able to hide, a long way down the street.
     5) aware that he is being followed (he calls the girlfriend or she calls him, either way he says he’s being followed) he does not want to be standing at the door, trying to get in (key? waiting for brother to let him in?) with his BACK TO THE STALKER, a sitting duck, with nowhere to run. So he keeps going UP the footpath looking for bushes etc to hide in.
     6) GZ follows him up the path and the confrontation happens. TRUE GZ was travelling in a direction back to his truck… but because TM was also going that way, NOT to get back in the truck. TRUE TM “circled around” but AHEAD of GZ, not behind him.

     There is the missing 2 minutes.

     TM’s “criminal” history is 110% irrelevant. GZ could not have known any of the history — he was suspicious of him because he DID NOT KNOW HIM. And then because he ran away. TM meanwhile ran away because a weird stranger, who had just denied following him, WAS NOW CHASING HIM.

     GZ, on his own territory, armed with hollow-point bullets, had no reason for fear until he was getting beaten. TM, being stalked, had plenty of reason for fear even before any confrontation….. and every right to stand his ground, his attempts at withdrawing from the situation having been thwarted by GZ continuing o follow him. Apart from his phone already being in use, what was he going to do? Call 911 and say “I’m a black kid I am not sure where I am there’s this white guy following me?” ????

     If his path of further escape was blocked, why would he not be within his rights to push out of the way the person blocking him? if you’re trapped against a wall by someone you have reason to fear, are you supposed to just stand there quietly and wait to be killed? So if TM DID strike the first blow, I believe he’d be within his rights under the SYG law.

     Then the adrenalin kicks in, the fight is on……..and it is GZ’s turn to be in fear for his life. And out comes the gun, possibly further escalating the struggle over who is to have control of it. Probably both of them are screaming for help. The eventual shooting is “accidental” ie not premeditated, and GZ is in total shock about it. He carried that gun to feel safer, not to ever use it.

     Of course he FEELS innocent, never meant to shoot anyone; knows the police are on his side; only has to tidy up the story to omit the distance he chased for; not lawyer up and thereby look guilty…………and it nearly worked.

     I don’t believe his suspicions were racial profiling. It was a stranger, walking around slowly in the rain, not “normal”. The race issue comes into it only because police did not charge the white shooter of a black victim, when in the reverse situation they most likely would have. It was not GZ being accused of racism, it was the POLICE, who have a strong record for it in that particular town, including the incident GZ helped get justice for.

     SYG for GZ? definitely not. Murder 2? definitely not. Manslaughter yes, whatever the lowest version of that is in Florida, because a trigger was pulled, someone died, and the situation was started by the guy with his finger on the trigger.

     A tragedy all round. A tragedy perhaps avoided if people were not allowed to run around with guns… without which GZ would certainly have been more cautious, and the whole incident never happen.

     • That’s a good take. Where was Zimmerman’s truck parked again? In/Near the Northeast crosswalk/cut through — directly east of the clubhouse facing west?

       If so, and if Trayvon is at but then leaving the clubhouse between :55-1:00 of Zimmerman’s 911 call, the timing of GZ having a faded tone when saying “Ok…these assholes always get away” between 1:34 – 1:40 doesn’t add up since Trayvon would still be in front/near Zimmerman’s parked car.

       I haven’t wanted to speculate the path of either person after Zimmerman clears the area on the northern part of the T in the sidewalk and hangs up the phone until the trial since there are so many variables.

       I give little credit to Zimmerman correctly saying what area/direction Trayvon was running in given his miserable track record of offering detailed directions throughout the call. Any direction other than north has to be considered “the other direction…towards the back entrance” in my opinion.

       • Treyvon’s father said the police told him….

         “He told me Zimmerman’s story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.”

         This is either
         1: untrue and never happened OR
         2: happened around/before the 911 call in which he says TM is coming over to check him out.
         3: to anyone “normal” would indicate TM was innocent, not a suspect.

         At this stage he had no opportunity to follow TM UNLESS it was before they both entered the grounds. TM was under the awning of the clubhouse, GZ was parked facing the clubhouse and in TM’s path towards home. No running etc had yet started.

         I can’t hear anything like this on the call. It may have happened much earlier (eg at the gate) or just happened, and the “coming over to check me out” part of the call was a lie, a description of what had happened 1/2 a minute earlier, to cover his @ss/make him sound more suspicious.

         Oh he says “button” singular, I think he means one of those big pin-on buttons with some slogan n them. Still not too easy to see from a distance. He saw this close up. But he’s unsure about the pants (jeans or trackies look quite different in every respect). Sounds like he’s describing someone he’s just seen close-up but only from the waist up, like the other is standing outside his door.

         If this conversation did happen, what a missed opportunity to say “I am neighborhood watch….”

         Also, who said he left home 300 yards away at 7.09? the time of the call? he could have left 10 minutes before, driven out, seen someone suspicious heading towards the community…….followed him, had the above talk (or not) and only called the police when he was safely and legally inside the area he was supposedly responsible for. I mean, they won’t come out if he says there’s a young guy walking along the main road outside, right?

         (All this coming from someone who’s gone out to challenge the police in a marked car as to why the’y’re sitting outside my house with engine running and headlights on).

       • The scenario is plausible, but I have a problem with paragraph 1).

         GZ told his father he was suspicious when he spotted Trayvon walking between buildings, not on the pathways.

         It makes more sense that GZ was driving from his home on Retreat View and saw TM come through buildings near the shortcut from outside the community.

         I also don’t believe GZ and TM had contact before the call to SPD. GZ’s comment “He’s coming to check me out.” has enough anxiety in it to suggest this was the first close up encounter.

         • Between buildings could have been when Trayvon was ducking under the clubhouse awnings to get out of the rain but I agree — they could have crossed paths in that northwest corner of the gated community.

       • I actually listened to the orig unedited 911 call and viewed video of Mr. Martin retracing his sons steps through the complex. I feel that with out doing so and only hearing edited portions of what media has reported, you don’t get a good sense of what actually may have happened. One thing that stood out for me was George saying “he’s coming to check me out, he’s got his hand in his waistband, something in his hand”…stop right there…if I were in a neighborhood looking to commit a crime and notice someone ‘watching’ me, I’m going to walk toward that person who could potentially identify me as the person who committed that crime?! Not likely.

         Here’s what I think: George on his way to run errands, spots Trayvon entering the development via the shortcut used by residents (this is in direct route George would need to travel to main entrance of the complex).

         Upon entering, Trayvon walks left toward the clubhouse. George, at that moment figures he’s up to no good and decides to follow. Once at the clubhouse, Trayvon decides to seek shelter from rain(all the while noticing this man following him). George decides to park few feet from clubhouse and mailboxes and continues to watch Trayvon, calls 911 to report suspicious person looks like up to no good, on drugs, walking about in rain looking at houses.

         Trayvon leaves clubhouse walking toward George in the direction of home he’s staying(he uses the cut-thru that would take him to back of units down the sidewalk). George still on phone with 911 giving details of the “suspicious” person and where he’s parked. Tells 911 Trayvon is running and George decides to exit vehicle in ‘hot pursuit'(can be heard running, and witness see two people running). 911 dispatcher advises against following, he says, “OK”. Movement can still be heard for few seconds after. No longer hear him running, but neither do you hear him walking as if returning to vehicle, steadiness in his voice and hear rain in background. It’s my guess he’s waiting on patio of the neighbor/friend that took picture of back of his head, since that’s closet to where the shooting actually took place and he’s one of the reported witness to call 911 afterwards.

         Did he loose sight of Trayvon at some point? It’s possible. Did Trayvon duck around some of the buildings to loose the strange man following him? It’s also possible. Question is, when at what point after George hangs up with 911 did they encounter each other again? Some ask, if Trayvon was so close to home, why didn’t he keep running till he reached there? Has it occurred to anyone that maybe he didn’t want to let this stranger know where he lived?! That maybe he’s waiting for the coast to be clear.

       • Try this for the missing two minutes. I mark the missing two minutes from the time GZ gets off of the phone with the dispatcher and the time Trayvon ends his final call with the girlfriend. The girlfriend tells us that Trayvon is being followed and he eventually runs. Then she states that Trayvon says the man is being him again. Trayvon is not on the phone with the girlfriend when Zimmerman states,”shit he’s running at 7:11. back toward the back entrance. It is after he runs toward the back entrance when the girlfriend calls at 7:12. So at 7:12 Trayvon is somewhere hiding/walking around on the phone with the girlfriend. After Zimmerman says, “he ran” he stays on the phone with the dispatcher until 7:13 which started the missing minutes. Remember the girlfriend is not on the phone with Trayvon when he is noted as running toward the back entrance, but she speaks of two encounters that Trayvon has with Zimmerman during the time she is on the phone with Trayvon. Those two encounters took place after she called Trayvon at 7:12 until the phone went dead at 7:16. Zimmerman stated that he was confronted by Trayvon on his way back to his truck. After Zimmerman gets off of the phone with the dispatcher he returns to his truck to wait on the officer. While at his truck Trayvon comes back and approaches Zimmerman and asked him why are you following me? Zimmerman tells him that he is not following him. So Trayvon is relieved because this guy isn’t following him so Trayvon turns to walk away headed toward the cut through again, Zimmerman exits his truck again following Trayvon still trying to keep an eye on him. Trayvon sees Zimmerman coming through the cut through and he tells the girlfriend that this guy is following him again. She tells Trayvon to run and she stated that he eventually run down the backway, behind the homes. Zimmerman proceeds to follow him through the cutoff. Trayvon hides in the unpaved cut through between building 1 and 2 that faces Twin Trees Drive. Trayvon spots Zimmerman and he tells the girlfriend, here this guy is again still following me. Zimmerman is looking around but he can’t see Trayvon, so he heads back up the sidewalk toward the T, his back is to Trayvon. Trayvon is upset with Zimmerman, Zimmerman just told him that he wasn’t following him and here he is following me, so Trayvon comes out of hiding approaching Zimmerman from his left side, he approaches Zimmerman and he asked him, “hey homie you got a problem with me? Zimmerman answers say no, then he asks Trayvon what is he doing around here? At this point Trayvon realizes that Zimmerman is following him because Zimmerman thinks he is up to know good. So they start arguing and Zimmerman tells Trayvon that the police is on the way which makes Trayvon more angry because this guy done call the cops on him and he hasn’t done a thing. Trayvon decides that he is going home because this is crazy. Zimmerman decides to call 911 to let them know that he has the suspect and where they are located. He reaches for his phone, maybe Trayvon sees the gun and thinks that Zimmerman is reaching for the gun, and his reactions was to punch him. This could have been when the phone was hung up on DeeDee. I think that even after the phone was hung up with DeeDee the two argued before the fight started, because one witness stated that he heard them arguing for sometime before he looked out. I don’t think that the push DeeDee heard started the fight. Somebody pushed, they argued then they fought. This explain the 2 minutes as well as explain why DeeDee said that Trayvon ran and hid, and just seconds later Trayvon said here this guy is following me again. Zimmerman had came through the cut through and walked down the sidewalk toward the back entrance far enough for Trayvon to see him from the unpaved cut through between the two building and when Trayvon saw him that is when he told DeeDee here this guy is again still following me.

         • Zimmerman should have been back at his car waiting for the Sanford PD.

           • He wasn’t because he lied to them when he agreed not to follow! Nor, did he bother to tell them he was armed. He simply “forgot” that he was armed.

     • And, Zimmerman was told to stop following, harassing, stalking, etc Trayvon but he continued to illegally do so instead of returning to his truck. You can’t do something illegal and then have Stand Your Ground apply after a lethal shot is fired from your gun.

       • Right you are! Of course, it isn’t a “hard” point of law, it’s a rule, but rules have reasons for being, and this one has a very good and important one from several aspects; one: don’t harrass or provoke, and two: don’t intefere with what could become a police investigation, if you’re right and the suspicious person turns out to be a real criminal.

         So, for those reasons, I think a jury will consider this to be the operative instructions that should have been followed as if they were law!

         Obviously, if any juror were to be followed by some stranger, they’d want the right to take defensive actions, of whatever kind may be approriate to the level of threat.

         Thus, Zimmerman’s merely walking away, does not end Trayvon’s right to confront him! Trayvon has been provoked, he has a right to know why, if he chooses to attempt to find out! While Zimmerman has no rights at all, since he violated the rules that prohibited his provocations. A jury will have no other choice but to enforce those rules, because the police need them, because they keep people safe, and because they themselves would be covered by them.

       • NLME, I couldn’t respond to aussie so hope you don’t mind I add my comment here.

         By observing all the details on the dispatcher tape, it is clear that George Zimmerman intentionally pursued and placed himself in a potential confrontation after he exited his vehicle and began following Trayvon Martin on foot. If he assumed Trayvon was suspicious of breaking into houses or “on drugs or something” and maybe carrying a weapon then he should have remained inside his own vehicle until the police arrived. Well George Zimmerman did have a deadly weapon and made sure he had it with him when he went on foot to assumingly find an address. Before he got out of his vehicle it was sufficient that he had already given a “description” and the general direction that TM went. After all, he was only to be a look out, notify the police and let them do the job from there. When asked if he was following TM, he disregarded the wise words of the dispatcher who said, “You do not have to do that”. Can he honestly claim he was on his way back to his vehicle or was he trying to spot TM again when he asked the dispatcher to have the police call him when they arrived rather than tell them he would be at the mailboxes or sitting in his truck? It is only GZ’s words of what happened after that, including the so called ‘eye witness’ who claimed he saw TM on top of GZ. Let all the gathered evidence be truthfully shown because one cannot believe everything GZ said by trying to look like an innocent victim and justify his own stupid actions. When impartial voice analysis experts say they are convinced it was Not Zimmerman screaming for help during the last few minutes in that emergency call, I would tend to believe them over him. This Stand Your Ground Law is truly messed up where some people get away with murder. Not saying that George Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder but he surely was negligent in his own actions that resulted in the death of another human being, and he will have to live with that on his conscience for the remainder of his life.

       • @Lonnie “Thus, Zimmerman’s merely walking away, does not end Trayvon’s right to confront him! Trayvon has been provoked, he has a right to know why, if he chooses to attempt to find out!” I would recommend that you check this information, I think you are wrong. If your attacker had retreated and now is walking away, and you decide to confront your attacher and a physical confrontation occurs and it is detemined that now you are the one beating the crap out of the person, you have become the aggressor.

         • Except Zimmerman didn’t retreat…especially when he was told to stop following the teenager. Rather, he continued to harass, stalk, and prey upon Trayvon leading up to his death by gunshot.

           • Thanks NLME, I’ll add that there was no “attacker” at the point in time I was referencing. If Zim really had headed back to his truck, Trayvon still had cause to ask questions of him.

             As I said on my blog in the comments: Zimmerman is acting like a child playing cops & robbers! The adult thing to do, when Trayvon was approaching him in his vehicle, would have been to simply roll down the window and say:

             “Hi, I’m George Zimmerman, Captain of the Neighborhood Watch, I haven’t seen you around here before, do you live in one of these houses?”

             Who could take issue with such a greeting? There’s nothing in either the law or the NW rules that prohibit this conduct, and it certainly would have saved everyone a whole bunch of trouble, not to mention Trayvon’s life!

             Why does Zimmerman feel that every stranger is a serious threat that just has to be dealt with immediately and without question? This isn’t your friendly Neighborhood Watch Captain at work, this is a deranged individual with a diseased mind on the prowl.

       • You say that Zimmerman did not retreat, is this something that you have proof of or is this speculation on your part?

202. I just listened to the video of GZ apologizing at the bond hearing how the prosecutor said he couldn’t say who started the struggle. This thought popped into my head.

     We know from the girlfriend’s recollection of the cellphone call, TM had told her he was being followed by a creepy guy then he thought he’d lost him then she hears why are you following me and the phone goes dead. I think TM had run between the back of the townhomes to get away from the guy in the truck and had stopped running to take his girlfriends phone call and thought he was safe on the sidewalk hidden from the roadway. What if I had been walking behind the townhomes that dark February night before GZ showed up? Would TM have come up to me and asked why are you following? I doubt it. I’m sure I would have kept walking and not been disturbed by TM. GZ comes along and is indeed still following TM and that is why TM asks why are you following me. So it doesn’t really matter who did the first shove, TM felt threatened. TM apparently knew GZ was the creepy guy in the truck and now creepy guy is on foot. Any other person could have been walking there and would not have been asked anything by TM or shoved or anything else. TM and GZ got into it because GZ was still pursuing.

203. I’ve been following Wagist.com. I would suggest you see what the speculations on a pro Zimmerman site are. A couple of new developments. The log of Martin’s cell phone is in PST, not EST. So the last calls are after Martin was dead. Another finding was the twitters supposedly from DeeDee that evening. She was not concerned, and the next day was going about normal business.

     I requested someone to photoshop the pictures of GZ’s wounds. I do not think the pictures in the garage match the recently released one. Maybe someone here can do that.

     • I’ve visited their posting but it was a week or two ago — will need to check it out again. Thanks!

       Note: I wouldn’t say this blog is “pro” Trayvon or “anti” Zimmerman. The posting’s original intent was to a) Prove or disprove what we’ve heard so far from Zimmerman and then b) Call out the Sanford Police for not arresting Zimmermen the night of the shooting based on what’s currently known.

     • I have looked at that site, and I think that Trayvon did double back. From where Trayvon was killed, I concluded that he had to come back to that location. I think that when Zimmerman said that Trayvon was running,(2:08) he was still in the truck, he is asked which way is he running, he said toward the back entrance. Zimmerman apparently saw Trayvon reach the T in the sidewalk turn right and run down the sidewalk between the townhouses toward the back entrance which would make sense, since Ms. Green lives in that direction. He exits his truck because you can heard the door chime, then you can hear his breathing and wind interference in the phone.He is asked if he is following, he says yes and the dispatcher nicely says, “we don’t need you to do that”. Zimmerman says, “OK”, however if you listen his voice does not return to normal and the wind can no longer be heard until about 2:39 mark on the call and then he says “he ran”. So from the time he exited his truck until he said he ran, Zimmerman ran/followed Trayvon for about 30 seconds. If Zimmerman could run 300ft in 30 seconds through the cut through down the sidewalk, because he sees Trayvon running toward the back entrance, how far down that side walk did he make it before he says “he ran”. How ever far Zimmerman ran Trayvon ran farther because he starting running as he approached the T and Zimmerman had not exited his truck at this point. Trayvon was killed about 105ft from Zimmerman’s truck, and Zimmerman ran at least 300ft from his truck down that sidewalk he ran past the location was Trayvon was killed. Zimmerman followed Trayvon down that sidewalk because it wouldn’t have made any sense for him to go any other way because he didn’t know which way Trayvon was going especially since there were many unpaved cut throughs and Trayvon could have ran through any of them. Running 300ft down that sidewalk put Zimmerman way past where Trayvon was killed, and the only explanation for him being where he was when he was killed he had to turn around and go back. In order for Zimmerman to get back to the location he was head back down that sidewalk to go back to his truck when Trayvon approached him. Even if Trayvon hid, he would have hid in a cut through completely out of Zimmerman eye sight. Based on the locations of the cut throughs the cut throughs are still located past where Trayvon was killed, so to get back to where he was killed he would still have to back track himself. I think that he went back to confront his follower to ask why was he following him. This is a 17 year old young man who is on the telephone with his girlfriend and he isn’t about to let her think that he is running from some old scary dude. He had already told her that he wasn’t running, it’s a man thing ok. Trayvon wasn’t afraid as some may think, because he could have ran home, and if he thought that he couldn’t make it, being scare and all, use your cellphone and call 911 or your dad; call someone. That’s what people do who are scare ok. This kid was not scare, he told his girl that he was going to handle this dude, he either came out of the unpaved cut through just below where he was killed or he traveled back down the sidewalk and walked up to Zimmerman and that is when DeeDee heard him ask Zimmerman why are you following me? and she heard Zimmerman ask what are you doing around here? She heard a push and his earpeice must have fallen because his phone went dead. My phone doesn’t go dead because I drop my earpeice, I think she heard more than what she is telling, and I believe that she knew that Trayvon was going back to confront Zimmerman and I think that explains the fact that she didn’t bother to call 911, Trayvon father, his mother this girl didn’t bother to tell anyone what had just happen with her boyfriend, something ain’t right with this. We know that Trayvon and Zimmerman got into a physical fight. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon was beating his head on the sidewalk, at some point the gun becomes the focus of the fight, and now it is in Zimmerman’s hand with him holding the butt of the gun and Trayvon holding the barrel if the gun. They both struggles over the gun with neither one of them willing to let it go because neither knows the mind of the other one. The gun is wet from the rain and both feel that they are losing their grip on the gun. The gun is pointing at Trayvon he can’t get it from Zimmerman, he feels that the gun is slipping from his grip and he’s not going to turn it a loose because he doesn’t know if Zimmerman will shoot him, so he starting screaming for help, and his voice is picked up on the 911 call. Zimmerman is screaming as well because he feels that he is losing his grip on the gun, and he doesn’t know what Trayvon is going to do if he gets the gun, this is when John hears Zimmerman screaming. Zimmerman is on the bottom with Trayvon sitting on his chest, so he is not able to scream loud enough for his voice to be heard on the 911 calls. However there are some low screaming on the 911 call that can barely be heard it could be Zimmerman screaming. The gun is slipping out of Zimmerman grip his head is being hit on to the side walk, no one is coming to help and out of fear of the gun being taken Zimmerman pulled the trigger. I believe that Trayvon went back, I think that he kept his girl on the phone so she could hear him handled his dude. I doubt very seriously that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. When the investigators determine which past Trayvon took and if Zimmerman followed that past, it will not be hard to determine how far Zimmerman went down that sidewalk and if he had past the location where Trayvon was killed and if he had ran pasted that location and made back within 105ft of his truck when this confrontation took place, it will be no doubt that he was returning to his truck and Trayvon came back up behind Zimmerman.

       • This coordinates well with what you’re speculating.

         

         The moment Zimmerman went south of the T instead of returning to his truck after being told to not follow Trayvon Martin, is the moment he effectively voided his Stand Your Ground argument.

       • I don’t think that there us any proof that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon, I think we are speculating to say the least. The investigator under oath stated that they had no evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claim that he was on his way back to his truck when Trayvon attacked, I am curious about where are you getting your facts?

         • This is the premise of my entire blog posting – thanks for stopping by and commenting! While you’re here…

           Explain to me how Zimmerman can be heard running due east before being instructed to stop following Trayvon but he was still attacked south of the T while returning to his parked vehicle which should have been due west?

           

           But, if Zimmerman continued to stalk Trayvon, he could have been heading back to his truck when the confrontation began. And, there within lies the defense team’s major “Stand Your Ground” hurdle.

       • How can you tell that Zimmerman is running due east when he is told, “we do not need you to do that”, which is different than saying “do not follow”. When the dispatcher asked Zimmerman which way was Trayvon running he stated, “toward the back entrance”. Running toward the back entrance would make sense since Ms. Green’s townhouse was toward the back entrance right down the sidewalk that ran between the townhouses. Zimmerman tells the dispatcher that Trayvon is running toward the back entrance and then we hear the door chime which tells us the he exited his truck and began to follow. Zimmerman was aware of the unpaved cut throughs that separated the building and I am sure that he was aware that Trayvon could have ran to the next street over Retreat Circle and hid. Zimmerman knew that Trayvon could have found many hiding places so it would have made more sense for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon’s path so to keep him in his eyesight. I also looked up the legal definition of stalking, I could be wrong but following someone for 30-60 seconds doesn’t meet the legal requirements for stalking. As far as the SYG defense; following some is not illegal, unless it is done to the level of stalking and I do not think following someone only once for about 30 seconds meets the definition of stalking. If one wishes to believe that Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon or continued to follow him after the dispatcher said, “we do not need you to do that”, once Zimmerman retreated and headed back to his truck, the following and or stalking ended. If Zimmerman is confronted by Trayvon while he is headed back to his truck and it is eventually determined that Trayvon threw the first punch, Trayvon has become the aggressor. Say you and I are walking the track after dark, and you run up behind me and take off running. At some point you step off of the track and just watch me as I go by; so I decide to go over on another track and walk, I look up and there you are following around the track. I make feel uncomfortable maybe a little frighten. I can turn around and ask you why are you following me, but I don’t have the right to punch you know matter how frighten and afraid of you I may be. Trayvon was seen running toward the back entrance of that gated community around 7:11. Zimmerman didn’t end his call with the dispatcher until 7:13 where was Trayvon during those 2 minutes? If Trayvon ran down the sidewalk that ran behind the townhouses, how far did he go in those two minutes. If he ran due east which is not toward the back entrance how far due east did he go. If Trayvon ran down the sidewalk between the townhouses based on where he was killed, he would have had to turn around and come back to that location. If he had ran due east to Retreat Circle why not head down the front of the townhouses to Ms. Green’s front door. Why run due east toward Retreat Circle and then turn around come back to the sidewalk that ran behind the townhouses. Even if Trayvon ran down Twin Trees in order for him to be killed where he was killed he had to back track. Even if Trayvon hid in the first unpaved cut through which is south of where he was killed, he would have had to come out of the cut through and head back North toward the T.

204. There is nothing to say the truck was facing west. It may have been facing east and Z observing through rear-view or looking out the side window. This can be established only by knowing the position the vehicle was found in when the police arrived.

     Everyone seems to assume Z drove north up Twin Trees. That does not make any sense at all.

     No position on Twin Trees would let him see M do anything except sheltering at the clubhouse. No walking about, looking about etc. Nothing even a report-happy person would call the police about.

     And nothing M would feel threatened enough about to go over to check him out and ask Why are you following me?

     I’ve made a map of the realistic possibilities, but how do I get it to you?

     • Assuming the clubhouse was closed/dark inside, Zimmerman couldn’t have seen 150-200+ feet out without the assistance of headlights on that dark/rainy night. So, even though I haven’t cared to speculate how Zimmerman got there, his vehicle’s headlights need to be facing west on Twin Trees. For what it’s worth, from my days as a civil engineering/urban planning student, I also assume the sidewalks closest to the street including the crosswalks by all of the cut throughs (but maybe not the sidewalks in between the buildings) have street lamps.

       If Trayvon was like any teenager I know – and he was likely already being stalked by Zimmerman – he probably wasn’t standing still while waiting under the clubhouse’s awnings.

       Cool — I’d love to see your map. You can email me at thelist@bcclist.com.

     • I’d like to see your map too, Aussie.

       I’m with you NMLE. I actually worked on positioning GZ’s truck using FOX35’s footage from the night of TM’s shooting. My results are in line with NMLE’s. Actually, NMLE, I’ve sent you a word document with that information. Could you have a look and give feedbacks?

205. Someone thinks this screen capture of video from Fox news reporting the night of the incident is of Zimmerman’s truck.
     

     Not sure if that’s the case, but if so, does it help with placing the final parking location and side of the street?

     • Great screen grab – thanks!

       That truck was seen the next day too when the witness “John” was interviewed by Fox. Well, I think that was the clip where you could see a parked truck at the bend.

       You would have thought Zimmermam would have retrieved his vehicle later that night/morning once the investigation concluded? Anybody know exactly what kind of truck (or SUV) that Zimmerman was driving?

       • someone posted this pic of zimmerman in his car on another site

         

         i’m sorry but it made me smile a little

         • Hahaha. Hardest I’ve laughed when thinking about Zimmerman trying to play cop.

       • They may have dropped him off at his house in the wee hours after he was taken to the police station interviewed (was he there for 5-7 hours?). So, he may have been exhausted, explained to his wife what happened, then gone to sleep. After waking up late the next day, he may have made some calls about how to proceed? Maybe he got his truck quite late the next day?

         • I’m sure he would just ask the officers to drop him off at his truck rather than the house but you never know. Should be interesting to hear/see where his truck was parked.

       • haha and look he’s even on the radio….must have spotted some some kids running with scissors

206. I saw this point mentioned on another site. It was a white one (in the video). Someone said there’s a white truck parked in the same spot in Google Earth before all this started, so it would not have been Z’s.

     On the other hand according to advertising for real estate in this community, it is not legal to park on the street here. Everyone has to use their own garage or driveway.

207. I’m going to throw something that may seem far fetched but I started to think of all of the inconsistencies in this case. The witnesses, the slow release of Trayvon’s body, the cover up by police it seems, the quacky Zimmerman lawyers ( 1st two) . So i googled Trayvon Martin and conspiracy and here is what i found. This is interesting:

     Trayvon was above average intelligence and his father is a Free Mason. It will be interesting to see what the autopsy report says, I believe that will tell us if there were defense marks anywhere on Trayvon and where the bullet hole was. As for Zimmerman’s photo with the blood on the back of his head, the blood was falling sideways indicating gravity pulled it down toward his face therefore it seems to me he was facing down, i.e. was on top of Trayvon while the blood trickled down. Also, if the Zimmerman’s don’t have much money how is it that these big time lawyers find the time to represent him free of charge. All for publicity or are they Freemasons as well.

     I thought this was such an interesting video and thought I’d share it.

     • They definitely have money — Zimmerman’s dad is a retired judge and his mom a retired clerk. They’re probably sick of covering George’s ass though – it was said he filed for bankruptcy a few years back.

       • Robert Zimmerman is asked whether he can help his son post bond. He says he is a disabled veteran without much income or savings. He says his home has a mortgage on it.

         http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/apr/20/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-live

         Mark O’Mara has also stated the family has no money. The wife is a nursing student graduating in 4 weeks, Zimmerman was also a college student.

         Someone is paying but I am uncertain it is the father. A magistrate is different to a judge. They deal with bonds I believe and small crimes.

         http://gaveltogavel.us/site/2012/01/23/will-west-virginia-magistrate-court-judges-have-to-possess-a-college-degree/

         I’m not sure if Robert Zimmerman was from West Virginia but he didn’t even need a College degree. Zimmerman’s mother was a clerk in the law courts so they were definitely connected. I tried to google a magistrate’s salary in Virginia but couldn’t come up with one. Also, my girlfriend from NY said her father, who was a lawyer, remortgaged his home to send 4 kids to college so they weren’t wealthy but “comfortable”.

         Personally i do agree i think they have money and are trying to hide that fact. I’m sure ZImmerman’s father was able to call in many favours for his somewhat deviant son with anger management issues. A son who it seems did not really hold down any kind of job…… that in
         itself can indicate mental health issues ( which I believe he has– OCD?)

         • I was reading on Zillow (I believe) that previous (or current) rent (not anticipated mortgage) for his unit in the gated community was $1,100 (or $1,200) a month. Sorry for all the guestimates – I looked this up weeks ago – but If you’re a retired anything from the US government, you can float $15k bond.

       • Deborah D. and NLME,

         I agree. I also noticed the confessed murderer seems to have had problems holding down a steady job for any length of time. Perhaps the parents are hiding assests for fear they will be sued as a result of their sons past run-ins. I notice they removed his name from their mortgage on the “retirement home” they purchased before the finally moved to Florida permanently.

         Looks like the family is just looking for another free ride. The judge, his wife, and daughter-in-law, Shellie testified in the bond hearing, they didn’t see anything wrong with the confessed murderer assaulting a LE.

         They lied by omission about the funds in the Pay-Pal account, indigency; and even admitted they lied about receiving threats. During the bond hearing Shellie admitted to the DA that they received hate mail but it did not contain any threats, nor did they report it to the police. The DA told her to turn the so called hate mail over to the DA’s office. (I have a funny feeling that won’t be happening).

         I believe they told the lie about threats to garner public sympathies and a “free” money. Shellie also admitted they collected unemployment whenever they weren’t working, which was quite often. This tells you a lot about their value system, work ethic. According the dad, his son, “by the time he was in his early 20’s was making $10,000 a month as a mortgage broker” (and nobody believes that but them).

         http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?pagewanted=all (has a nice interactive map)

         I just find it very interesting that the media has not mentioned anything about the blatant lies the family told under oath, especially about the lies about being threatened.

         Another thing that caught my attention was former SPD Chief Lee resigned the same day the confessed murderer was released on bond. I don’t think it was just a coincidence.

         T.G.

         • Yeah, the bond hearing was a complete and utter failure for the Zimmerman crew. We could/should eventually see some charges come from that. At the least, Zimmerman straight up lied under oath about not knowing Trayvon’s age.

     • I work with children everyday, they fall and cut themselves scrape their knees you name it. Normally if they fall I don’t a lot of blood flow until they are inside being cleaned up. There are some people who are slow bleeder, so the bllod may not have started to flow until after he stood up.

       • You’d think that amount of blood coming out of Zimmerman’s wound would mean the 2nd ambulance – heading to the scene for him – wouldn’t be called off. Unless, of course, the head injury simply required being wiped off and/or little medical attention from the Stanford Police. If that’s the case, the injury and wrestling match don’t seem so life threatening, eh?

       • According to George Zimmerman’s father there were two small head gashes that were attended to in the police vehicle before they returned to the Stanford station less than an hour after the shooting. The following day Zimmerman went to the hospital and it was determined the wounds had began to heal so there was no need to recut and give him stitches. IMO this does not sound like serious head wounds. Wouldn’t you have thought if he was indeed injured in any way he would immediately get emergency medical treatment which included an xray for a possible concussion?

         • Agreed! If there was any sort of worthwhile injury, that ambulance does. not. get. called. off! There’s absolutely no way. Can you imagine if Zimmerman truly was hit hard in the head, they patched him up at the scene, and he later died from those injuries?

         • Yes, it takes a pretty hard bang of the head, to produce a bleeding blunt force injury on concrete. He says it was hard enough to make him fear for his life… Yet, no trip to the hospital? But then, there’s the bail hearing, which explains why Z’s stories don’t add up. He, not only doesn’t take directions, he also believe that he can fool everyone, by simply not telling the truth.

           His lawyer is trying to rectify that, he’s going into court to tell the judge about the donations, so the judge can decide if he wants a higher bail. I sincerely doubt there are many people out there, who would be stupid enough to give a liar money to finance either his bail or legal fees.

           If Z keeps it up, he may also have to face a trial for perjury as well.

       • If a person reasonably believe that the actions of another person “is about” to cause him seriously bodily injury or death, the person has the right to use deadly force. Your head may can take being banged on the concrete but my head may not. One person’s pain tolerence may not be the same of the next person”s. This law does not require that a person let someone bang his or head into the concrete until he passes out before you stand your ground.

208. I’ve been trying to put together how these could possibly go together:
     — “John’s” statements on the Fox news interview,
     — and the 911 call with the multiple cries for “Help” and the sound of the gunshot… where the last cry for “Help” ends right at the shot.

     Let’s say “John’s” short statement during the interview is accurate and when he saw them Martin was on top, Zimmerman did call to “John” for help from the bottom, and John did say “Stop – I’m calling 911”.

     Then what happens? Perhaps Martin does stop and Zimmerman is given the opportunity to pull out his gun and shoot Martin.

     The timing would be key. I don’t think the final cries of “Help” recorded on the 911 call could have been Zimmerman. In addition to the audio analysis that makes it seem unlikely to be him, the final cry for “Help” should have ended at least a moment or more before the shot if it was Zimmerman — during the time he would need to concentrate on getting the gun out and pointing and shooting. But the “Help” continues right into the moment of the shot and then stops immediately.

     I think if “John” is not making things up, then perhaps at least 2 minutes passed between the time he sees the two “wrestling right in the back of my porch”, and the time he gets to make his 911 call. John’s call begins at 7:18:00 pm, about 1 minute after the gunshot at 7:16:56. And while it’s possible some earlier cries for help were made by Zimmerman, the ones captured on the 911 call seem unlikely to be from Zimmerman… and they last for quite some time (45 seconds or so in the call with “Jeremy”? And had probably been occurring for quite a few more seconds before the 911 calls were made.)

     Maybe “John” couldn’t find his cell phone for a while to make the 911 call? Or maybe he didn’t intend to call 911 as soon when he first entered the house (did “John” see Trayvon back off when he said “Stop”?), but “John” changes his mind and calls 911 after he hears the shot?

     • Excellent points Sproutlette. You say:

       >The timing would be key. I don’t think the final cries of “Help” recorded on the 911 call could have been Zimmerman. In addition to the audio analysis that makes it seem unlikely to be him, the final cry for “Help” should have ended at least a moment or more before the shot if it was Zimmerman — during the time he would need to concentrate on getting the gun out and pointing and shooting. But the “Help” continues right into the moment of the shot and then stops immediately.<

       I believe those piercing cries for help were coming from someone who was in fear for his life from the bullet of a gun. The weapon was already in GZ's hand while TM was trying to prevent the gun from pointing toward himself and he being shot.

       • So do I.

     • I would die a thousand deaths if I couldn’t help someone, a child in particular, crying for help against a murderer stalking teens in my neighborhood. The teacher’s cries were too real to my understanding of how we as a civil society ought to work. The teacher is very familiar with teen voices. She couldn’t believe someone would shoot this child. She was in distress emotionally and psychologically in her 9-1-1 call to report what she heard. I am so very saddened that shooting causes so much pain and that the nut-wingers have found a way to profit from it on our own land. It used to be that nut-wingers only profited from killing abroad.

       • Commonsense, I would also die a thousand deaths if I could help etc. I can understand how some people would react for fear of harm to themselves, but myself I would have been outside to see what all the commotion was about and scream for them to quit fighting. The moment I saw someone armed with a gun I would be screaming at the top of my lungs.

       • @Caroline –

         I know exactly what you mean. My commonsense would be like call the police, but I’d still be on the way to help a victim and diffuse an escalation. Maybe we’ve both been lucky to avoid deadly situations.

         I saw a news report today about how war and weapons are sold because most of us walk around afraid. Horrible phenomena; we’re Americans — fearless for rights and justice, yet so afraid of each other that we are sold a gun to feel free enough to walk around this country.

209. re the phone call timings

     I doubt they’d be in PST — at this time of year they’d be in PDT, which is an hour earlier.

     However it does raise the important issue of time recording. All times on all calls would need to be checked for accuracy, including items like the logging times for the 911 calls: are they logged when they come in? when notes have been written to save them? does the phone company log seconds? if not, do they round up or down?

     Apart from this, while the “girlfriend” did not seem too concerned after the event, I do believe there was a call at that time. Whether she was coached or not is another matter. But if anyone was trying to make out TM was scared, they’d have made it “running”, the “walking fast” rings true.

     Not coming forward right away also makes sense — initially there would have been an expectation that Z was going to be charged, so no need to prove who started the confrontation.

     • Aussie, Up here, Standard Time is in effect in February.

210. In the picture of gz head wound it looks more like he was scratched than his claim of his being slammed repeatedly on concrete especialy since had no concussion or any other type head trauma plus he had broken nose. From my experince with concussions he should have some symptoms of a concussion. And i wonder if tm nails had skin underneath them.

     • We will see – the autopsy should tell a lot. Thanks for the comment!

       As for Zimmerman’s bloodied head and though I’m no medical professional, it does look more like a scratch/cut than blunt force trauma like being struck behind or rubbed on concrete. Nice observation!

211. Really, does it matter about the injuries? you don’t need to be very injured to be in fear of your life. You don’t need to be injured at all. Someone comes at you with a big knife, OR points a gun at you, OR just breaks into your home, you can be in fear of your life without a single scratch.

     We know there was a fight. IF who was in the right is determined by the extent of injuries, then it was the guy with the bullet hole in his chest.

     The issue is who started it — and that does not mean who struck the first blow, that means who provoked it. If it went on first blows, someone threatening you with a gun can claim he’s the victim because you fired the first shot.

     The other issue is, even in a “clearly accidental” shooting, the gun should be examined. I’m thinking of cases where a small child has shot another while playing with a loaded gun The gun is examined and fingerprinted, to make sure the story is not a cover-up for something more sinister.

     In this case finding a single print from Martin on that gun would have made a huge difference. But didn’t they let him take it home with him??? .

     • No, thankfully they did not. Of course, how it was handled is another story entirely, they weren’t trying to preserve any evidence, if anything they were trying to ruin it. GZ says that after he shot TM, TM turned around and fell to the ground. But GZ says that he didn’t think his hollow point round seriously injured TM, so he pounced on top of him. A still, unmoving body and GZ says he was still frightened.

       I hear the prosecutor has more evidence collected and more witnesses. Which I guess will lead to the discovery of, or clarification of questions to the story. Right now the internet is a mess with stories.

       • thought the whole point of using hollow point bullets is for their effectiveness to ‘kill’…just saying

         Also, how did he ‘turn around and fall to the ground’?! if he was on top of George, wouldn’t he have fall directly on him or fell over to the side?! I’m no forensics expert…just asking.

       • this is what I think happened in the scuffle. I think GZ knocked on John’s front door right before the scuffle and said there might be a thug/punk whatever hiding out back behind John’s townhouse. That is why John was on his dark porch outback. He was looking for TM also. The scuffle starts and I think initially TM was on top of GZ but rightfully so. Creepy guy follows, you are in fear, you defend yourself. John (white t shirt) runs up to them and says stop it I’m calling the cops, not so much to GZ because I’m convinced he knew GZ but to TM. The kid witness walking the dog sees white on top of red, John was blocking the view of TM. John runs inside to call and TM does stop and stands up. GZ pulls the gun and that’s when the teacher starts to hear his cries for help. TM slowly starts backing away, he still is facing GZ, he doesn’t turn around and run because he doesn’t want to be shot in the back. GZ pulls the trigger anyway and TM falls face first to the ground. GZ jumps on TM’s back and straddles him. Teacher looks out the window and sees this scene. John grabs a flashlight and runs out into the darkness because he knows the person who was holding the gun. John feels safe. He snaps a picture of GZ’s head with his cellphone because “look what happened to George, look what that thug did to him!” GZ asks John to call his wife and tell her he shot someone. You wouldn’t tell a stranger to do that, the stranger wouldn’t even know who to call. Cops show up. GZ states at his bond hearing he knows the night of the shooting he told one of the cops that he felt bad for the parents. How could he have felt bad for the parents? Noone knew who the victim was for like 12 hours after the shooting. GZ didn’t even know if TM had parents at that point. As far as having the cellphone pic taken, it was taken to cover GZ’s butt. His coverup lies had already begun and the first cop hadn’t even gotten to the scene yet.

         • That’s not a bad scenario…

       • I got this from a gun site. Hollow points expand in the body. Splat. Very effective kill. They said the reason they are popular/preferred is, the bullet won’t go through the body and hit an innocent bystander. (For the innocent victim I guess it makes little difference).

         How the final 30 seconds went down might never come out.

         The 911 call statements were partial, garbled, made in a state of shock. There’s a confusing (and confused) statement about someone in a white shirt. So far there are only 3rd-hand stories about what Z told the various police.

         It was raining. A lot of evidence (blood smears, patches of flattened grass etc) could have been washed away. We don’t know how far around the body the police looked, and how hard. (They did find the skittles and tea though, and did figure them to be Trayvon’s, and did apparently offer them to the parents). One statement later on TV suggested the screaming was not from the same spot as the arguing (but they only heard, didn’t look).

         I think the witness “John” probably saw more that he’s saying. He’ll be an interesting one to watch in the trial.

         The autopsy evidence will be a major clue, if it says enough about bullet trajectory and distance.

         Also VERY important, if the gun was treated properly, if there’s any of Trayvon’s fingerprints on it, and if so where.

       • jon finally put “the John” scenario out there. I was reluctant as it does speculate quite a bit. But it reads very plausibly.

         It has been mentioned that there was gun powder residue found on Trayvon’s hoodie. If true, this may indicate scuffling right up until the gun shot.

       • What would be interesting is if they know the location of where Martin’s bluetooth headset fell to the ground (maybe inadvertently captured in a photo or video of the scene). That would probably be the exact point where the two first met.

212. I think it makes sense that Trayvon would have went down the main street with the cars parked on it. That’s what I would have done if I felt for my well being. With all the cars parked on that street, there should have been more people around and he would have felt safer. Not that it mattered.

213. It mattered a lot, eiramarie. It just tragically made no difference in the end.

     They didn’t allow street parking there. But the back walkways were unlit (except from windows of homes) while I saw somewhere the streets had lighting, although I can’t see anything that might be light poles on the aerial shots. Hard to imagine an estate with no street lighting.

     But while he was being followed only by vehicle, it makes sense for M to keep to the roadway, where even if the truck followed, he could duck into cover at any time, where the truck could not go in after him.

     Z never said in the call where (on what path or road) M was running, only “towards the back entrance”. Absolutely everyone is assuming he was on the footpath. But there’s nowhere Z could be parked and SEE the T junction in the path, to say he had turned right to head towards the back gate. Remember he said this before getting out of the truck.

     If it was the walkway, Z would only need to go a short distance onto it, to see all the way down to the other end (where M was staying and where he’d be heading if he thought he’d lost Z).. He’d not be saying “I lost him”.

     If it was the roadway, M could look behind, see Z get out of the truck, and duck into any one of several cut-throughs, causing Z to “lost him”.

214. Apparently, someone was with GZ when T. Smith arrived. It’s not news anymore since the picture from GZ’s head was released. However, a comparison of the teachers call with LEO T. Smith report suggest a major discrepancy.
     T. Smith report suggests there was nobody on the scene but GZ & TM when he arrived. Below is the interesting section from T. Smith’s report:
     “As I walked in between the buildings, I observed a white male, wearing a red jacket and blue jean. I also observed a black male, wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt, laying face down in the grass. I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was original caller for the suspicious person complain), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs.”

     Now, is parts of the transcript of the teacher’s call:
     [1’02”] “I [inaudible]. I don’t know. The man is up right now. Someone is coming over. I’m glad other people called.”
     [1’20”] “I’m looking at my window. Somebody is [inaudible] with a flashlight. I don’t know what is happening. Someone is lying on the ground.”
     [2’00”] “I see out my back window, sidewalk, grass, something is really bad. There is a man out here with a flashlight with the man who was wrestling.”
     [2’10”] “No, it’s from my back window [inaudible] sidewalk in the back area. People are coming over”
     [2’22”] “No in the grass. Oh, my God! I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight. … I don’t know if that’s police or not. Oh, my God! He shot, he shot the person. He just said he shot the person.”
     [2’33”] “The people out there, a guy is raising his hands up, he’s saying he shot a person. I think it’s a police officer that’s with him right now. arrest – uh – oh, my God, why – why [inaudible]”

     The part that is interesting is that she sees a man with a flashlight at the 1:20 mark and says there is another person with a flashlight at the 2:20 mark. It is only then that GZ raises his hands and says that he shot TM.

     Conclusion, there was another man who came on the scene 1min before LEO T. Smith. He doesn’t sound like he left before T. Smith arrived.

     I would really hate it f the conclusion is that I can’t trust SPD’s reports.

     • yes one of the witnesses said she saw another resident come out with a flashlight and was possible talking to george. Either he had dissapeared before the police arrived or they didn’t add it their report. I’d like to know who was chatting to george before the police arrived, probably john….another thing..if the photo was taken of zims head 3 to 4 minutes after the shooting…and the police arrived 1 minute after the shooting….how was this person able to get so close to zimmerman and talk to him if he was taken to the police car..so were they letting zimmerman chat with possible witnesses…..WTF?

     • I should have added the sentence from T. Smith’s report that follows the above:

       “Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene.”.

       It really means that, according to the police report, GZ was already handcuffed when the 2nd Officer arrived on Scene. This is really in contradiction with the Teacher’s direct description of the events at the 2’22” mark.

       As I think about it, every single caller expressed their fear one way or another, including “John”. Almost all of them stayed in their home. Some would even hide upstairs. And yet, one man, who said he hasn’t seen anything but heard the struggle and the gunshot, had no problem with walking to the crime scene with a flashlight and a cell phone. With his cell phone, this man would take pictures but won’t call 911. Finally, this man happen to know GZ’s wife. And finally, this is a man who won’t appear in the initial police report. I really don’t know what to think about all that.

       Folks, I’d like to get your thoughts on this.

       • Sounds like someone was brave. Just one person with a flashlight and iPhone.

       • If I put that together with GZ being able to tell that TM was running to the back gate, without being able to see which way he did run, because, it looks like he couldn’t even see TM at all at that point. So, if I put these two things together with how the small window in time brings GZ together in time to see TM at the clubhouse, it looks like GZ may have already known where TM was living. His guess has a less than 50% chance of being correct if he doesn’t know things in advance. But all the talking GZ did up to that point was, quite obviously setting TM up as an “obviously ill intended person”.

         “He’s looking around at houses”, “He’s putting his hand in his WAISTBAND”, “He looks like he’s on DRUGS!” All great observations of subtle actions. This from a guy who doesn’t even tell his subordinate NW’ers that the SPD has a 14 hour course they need to take, before they are considered for patrol activities. Remember, Taaffe says that he goes out on patrols. I think it’s in the videos somewhere, but I remember it because it astonished me.

         If GZ were or had been working with others, they would most certainly want to either ignore or conceal that fact from the public. So, it sounded to me that Frank Taaffe slipped up and let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

         When you read transcripts about crimes you only know what they tell you. But, you have to pay close attention to the little things that may indicate that others may be involved, and things that hint at “foreknowledge” Like when people claim that things they could not see, happened, or certain acts were done, that they could not have had a clue about, but which are borne out later to be the case, even in spite of the odds against them making a correct guess. Or the odds against them arriving at the correct place and time, when the “window” is terribly small.

         So, I’ll reiterate my suspicion that GZ was working with someone. I think the SP will find that person, if they haven’t already. Because if they did, the mere mention of any such a suspicion on the part of the SP, would paralyze the defense, if it was true.

     • I think it was John who took the photo and I think that John knows George Zimmerman personally. How would John know George Zimmerman’s wife’s telephone number otherwise? I also think George Zimmerman was knocking on John’s door toward the end of his call to 9-1-1. George Zimmerman could have gone directly through John’s townhouse and exited John’s back door to confront Trayvon Martin. George Zimmerman also could have met up with Trayvon Martin by cutting through the grassy opening in between the townhouses about two doors down from John’s house and caused Martin to backtrack.

       To see what I mean, you would have to remove the straight line in yellow indicating Zimmerman’s path and replace it with a yellow line from the Zimmerman’s truck to the grassy opening (it’s right where the “Twin Trees” label is past the curve). That would be a shorter path requiring less time for Zimmerman to catch up with and startle Trayvon. This could also explain how Trayvon appeared to be “back-tracking” as Trayvon’s choices to escape (again!) would have been limited at that point.

       • Yes, but to know which way to go, after he’s lost sight of TM, he has to have a good idea of what TM’s destination is. Otherwise, if TM were just an interloper at the estates, he might very well have gone to RVC and gone north, circling back to the front gate, or seek to exit the estates by a cut through.(?)

         After losing sight of TM, and knowing how many choices he can make to escape, GZ should have given up and return to TT back to his truck. He doesn’t do that, instead he manages to cut TM off, or catch up with him, by assuming that TM’s direction is north, even though he can’t see him, and he knows TM knows he’s being followed. Of course, it could happen by luck, but, there’s way too much happening by luck here. At least for me.

     • Good thinking there aussie, This would explain a few loose ends.

     • They’d not list all the people they saw. By the time they make the report they know which ones are relevant (victim and shooter).

       Also, witnesses talking about what they are currently seeing may often go back to what they just saw earlier, especially if that narrative is interrupted by some new development. I’ve done it myself.

       The “people are coming over” likely would not have happened until after sirens announced the arrival of the police. All 911 callers expressed a reluctance to go outside, while the situation was not under control.

       If someone ( John?) was out there before the police arrived, he did not have far to go to get home. It happened 8 or 10 feet from his back porch. HE was not necessarily standing around outside when officer Smith rounded the corner.

       John is also the only one to have stated he went out during the fight and before the shooting. So he knew who was involved, so had no reason to fear going out again, unlike the others who didn’t know what was happening.

       But WHY did he feel safe to go out again after he heard a shot? …. unless he KNEW who fired the shot. … from something like having seen who had the gun.

       Which would put his saying “stop” into a whole new context.

215. Last thought before bed: That gunshot was pretty loud. I would think that if the gun was pressed against Trayvon’s body, it would be somewhat muffled.

     Maybe jon is on to something.

     I’ll ask my cop buddy about the muffling.

     • Please do!

       • Most recently the shooting scene has been presented almost right next to the T. Not further south as previously explained. This locates Trayvon roughly 50 feet from where Zimmerman lost sight of him. During the next two minutes until the start of the fight Trayvon travelled very very slowly. Mummy steps. Half a foot per second. 1/3 of a mile an hour. 1/10 of a normal walking speed. Any ideas to explain this?

         • I haven’t heard this and believe it to be inaccurate.

       • I had been reading his [zim’s] conflicting accounts of the matter and several animations that attempted to put the events on a timeline. Then the mortician reported that Trayvon had no marks that would indicate he had engaged in a death struggle fight, or fight of anykind, I had to ask the question: “Then where did these wounds come from?

         At first, I thought there might have been an opportunity to create them in the squad car. Even though I thought it was unlikely that the police would assist him, the misinformation about him being treated at the scene, seemed to indicate this suspicion was in order. At least until of this photo, which refutes that conjecture.

         He could not have done it after the shooting, nor was their time to do it after he left his car to follow. These wounds would most likely be the result of careful if hesitant cutting, since they’re for show, one doesn’t want to do more damage than needed. Just enough to get a blood flow.

         The only place Zimmerman has that kind of time and peace of mind on his hands is before he leaves his garage. Then consider, if the wounds were made that early on, some of the blood might even have dried. Zimmerman could not know, whether a qualified medical examiner, would be able to tell if the wounds were 5 minutes old versus 10 or 15. But, like anyone who plans such things, that risk has to be avoided. He accomplishes this by first having the second ambulance, dispatched to care for him, canceled. Then waives treatment by the medics whose concern/mission is to care for Trayvon. Thus any medical evaluation is avoided.

         Now, if you know — Zimmerman took a college level law course, even threw a party when he completed it successfully — that these wounds are a necessary part of your SYG defense, for what would otherwise be a capital crime, you most certainly would want your wounds, professionally examined and documented as best as can be done. Instead he opts for a circumstance to happen by coincidence or other turn of fate, to document the wounds without close/qualified examination. Which means he’s working at odds with his own best interests, why?

         He, supposedly, could not be sure that any picture would
         be taken of his wounds at the scene. So, why forego an independent examination by qualified medics at the scene?
         The only answer can be, he feared the age of the wounds would be discovered! No small thing, since that would make this shooting into premeditated murder.

     • @panorain –

       I could not reply via link, but I’ll try here:

       “Most recently the shooting scene has been presented almost right next to the T. Not further south as previously explained. This locates Trayvon roughly 50 feet from where Zimmerman lost sight of him. During the next two minutes until the start of the fight Trayvon travelled very very slowly. Mummy steps. Half a foot per second. 1/3 of a mile an hour. 1/10 of a normal walking speed. Any ideas to explain this?”

       Trayvon had already indicated to his girlfriend that he had lost the weirdo stalker following him. He’s chilling now on the phone with his girlfriend. I have also speculated that he could have dropped something (like a key to the house) during his run from Zimmerman and since he thought he lost the creep, felt free to retrace his own steps to find it.

       Someone else mentioned pinpointing the spot his earplugs were dropped after Dee-Dee’s call dropped. That, too, could be telling as it indicates the geolocation where Zimmerman and Martin met.

       I have always assumed Zimmerman forced Martin to backtrack his own path by threatening him either with a gun or with a threatening confrontation which Trayvon Martin had already sought avoidance of by running. Another way I can see Martin backtracking without a threat would be to find something he lost by retracing his own steps. This is all speculation of course. For all we know, Trayvon Martin could have been on his way back to the 7/11 to get the bread he forgot to get on his original trip.

       Point being, Martin’s path are not suspicious, but Zimmerman’s path and statements ARE! Zimmerman has been charged with murder2. Let’s explore his possible paths ONLY.

216. I think we’re looking at the apology all wrong. Zimmerman’s been following all the news reports, evidence on the web, etc., all along. Perhaps Zimmerman was answering the Martin family’s question about whether or not he knew their son was unarmed. This admission that he did not know, coupled with the fact that on the recorded police calls Zimmerman implied that the “suspect” was putting his hand in his wasteband leads most reasonable people to believe that Zimmerman most likely had his gun drawn while in pursuit of the child.

     • And then Zimmerman lied under oath. Already…

       • “I’m sorry for the loss of your son”, what someone says who is offering you their condolences…not an apology.

       • Indeed he did. But I think Mr. Crump may be far more shrewed than we’re giving him credit for. I think Zimmerman fell right into Crump’s hands by admitting he did not know if Trayvon was armed or not while knowing full well that a person with a gun isn’t going to approach another person he’s labeled as suspicious and worthy of a call to the police without taking precautions of his own — gun out, ready to fire.

         With Zimmerman’s bond statement, we can surmise that Crump will:

         (1) ask why Zimmerman lied to the police disptatch about the wasteband action

         (2) ask Zimmerman why he pursued somebody he felt *might be armed on his own (vigilante) although Zimmerman had observed no crime committed

         (3) ask Zimmerman if he was trained as part of his concealed weapon permit grant to leave his gun holstered while feeling he is being confronted by an armed assailant

         NONE OF ANYTHING ZIMMERMAN HAS SAID MAKES SENSE. I can see why the police doubted his story from day one.

217. This is what confuses me about that photo timestamp that says it was taken ‘3 mins’ after the shooting. Reports state that the first officer arrived in the complex at 7:17 and received reports from dispatch of shots fired…so how soon after that was it before he arrived to location of shooting which is believed to have been at 7:16. So how is it that 3 mins later, you have a witness taking a photo of a ‘suspect’ that according to the officer’s report, he only encountered GZ. When second officer arrived he states GZ was being held at gun point?!

     • He probably took it from his back porch or from the window above.

218. Can someone with better ears than mine try to find some other reason for that sound on Z’s call, that some are saying might be clicking the magazine into the gun?

     From what I see on the pro-gun sites, people with Conceal licences have them to be able to carry at all times “just in case”. So, in an emergency “oh hang on, gimme a minute to load, oh now where did I leave that magazine? ”

     I dooon’t think so. They carry loaded. Only way it makes sense to carry at all.

     • Is there a hollow point clip?

219. The more we look at this, the more strange things………..

     Z shoots M (on top of him or otherwise), then jumps on his back from not knowing if he’s badly injured or not…..

     So he holsters his gun before doing this?

     Or jumps on his back with the gun in his hand?

     Or drops the gun, jumps on M’s back, sees he’s not moving, then picks up and holsters the gun? thus obliterating some evidence? The position the gun gets dropped in would have something to say about their locations at the time the trigger was pulled.

220. NLME: ty for putting this out here.

     i think a breakdown like this would be handy:

     caller #1: male — saw wrestling in back of his porch. heard gunshot.
     dispatcher #1: male — you just heard one shot got off?

     caller #1: male — it was either that or a rocket, a window or something. don’t know, but not going out. i heard somebody calling help, help.

     dispatcher #1: male — and you can hear this guy calling for help?
     caller #1: male — i am pretty sure the guy is dead out here. holy shit.

     caller #2: female
     dispatcher #2: female

     caller #3 female:
     dispatcher #3:

     i’ll try to work on this; got kid duties now. will check in.

     • You’re welcome — thanks for stopping by and commenting.

221. Not sure if anyone has ever posted this link…but I find his thinking to be inline with map and graphics posted here. http://youtu.be/z1-FNPHzdMA

     • Hi Tina, Thank you for the video link. I did check that out when you first posted it. After looking at it again I have a few questions on the route that TM went and GZ pursuing him on foot. I could maybe see Trayvon going south on Twin Trees as indicated on the map, but when he gets to the end of the first set of townhouses located on the left side I couldn’t see him entering back that way as assumed in the video. Instead I would think he would enter into his own back yard through the first set of townhouses on the other side of the street. If he was trying to get away from a stranger who was following him he would not back track north again to GZ’s vehicle as the Utube poster has described, besides there’s also a problem with timing which was only a few minutes later when they both met face to face when the arguing and struggle happened south of the T. I’m also pretty sure TM would not lead GZ directly to his home but would stop running and try to remain unobserved some distance away from his house to make sure GZ is still not following and then come out when the coast is clear. A person trying to get away from and avoid a confrontation with a creepy looking person who is obviously following him does not go back to the location of his vehicle, or even come up behind him and jump on their back as George Zimmerman claims. GZ had a flashlight and more than likely spotted Martin in that back entrance and it was then Trayvon Martin said, “Why are you following me?”There’s also a question whether GZ was actually on an errand to Target but had instead stepped out to investigate the so called suspicious activity of TM after being tipped off by a spotter who saw Trayvon possibly entering into the cut through if he was unable to get through the locked main gate. .

222. It’s a shame that we have to do all this speculation just to piece together what happened that night. There are only 2 people who could explain everything and one of them is dead while the other has already told multiple lies. I’m actually looking forward to this trial and I am really interested in what this John guy has to say. His role initially seemed minor but it looks like he knows a lot more than he is saying. It’s also strange that John is cool enough to have GZ’s wife number and also take a pic with his iphone, yet he chose not to help GZ when he was supposedly screaming for help. If he saw his friend George getting his bashed in while screaming for help, it would seem logical for him to go and get the TM off of him. Now if he saw his friend GZ trying to detain and hold down TM, it is perfectly logical for him to go inside and call the police. It’s also ironic that he is also the only one that claims that George was on top.

     • I wouldn’t call it a shame. We could be doing mindless stuff. Or, additional mindless stuff. 🙂

     • ” If he saw his friend George getting his bashed in while screaming for help, it would seem logical for him to go and get the TM off of him. Now if he saw his friend GZ trying to detain and hold down TM, it is perfectly logical for him to go inside and call the police. It’s also ironic that he is also the only one that claims that George was on top.”

       Excellent point!

     • yep that is a damn good point

223. in the zimmerman photo after the shooting it looks like he is holding a phone to his ear…wasn’t he suppose to be in handcuffs, didn’t he ask someone else to call his wife etc etc

     • You’re right! He has no right ear in the photos and there is something else there. Peculiar it is and definitely something to ponder.

       • Yes Common, and there is no proof whatsoever that is Zimmermans head. I see no frontal features to validate it is him.

     • Jo, yes he did ask someone to call his wife, John. Same person that took photo of his head and claims to have seen the powder burns on Trayvon’s body?! You may be asking how is that, when he was face down? It’s become clear to me that Ofc. Tim Smith didn’t actually arrive on the crime scene until approx 7:19 and 7:20 despite fact the report filed by he and Ofc. Ayala indicates time dispatched and arrived on scene as “7:17”.

       • Tina,

         I believe it was Jeremy who took the pictures. It was also Jeremy who was asked by the confessed murderer to call his wife. Not John.

         T. G.

     • Jo,

       You’re right. I saw what appeared to be, maybe a bluetooth device on the right ear. The left ear seem pretty huge and white.

       Despite Ofc. Timothy Smith indicating in his report he handcuffed, didn’t ask him any questions, saw blood coming from face and nose, I am suspicious of his actions.

       He was the responding officer to Retreat View during the last 3 visists, including Trayvon’s murder. In other words, he had at least 2 previous encounters with the confessed murderer prior to the 3rd one which is when Trayvon was murdered.

       T.G.

       • Sleuth – Wow (again)!

         Do you have a link for the referenced Officer Timothy Smith info? You may have previously posted it — a few volunteers and I are going to start scraPing the comments for a bcclist.com evidence dump.

       • NLME,

         Yes, here it is. If you go to page 45 of call logs, you’ll see a report for a B/M, wearing Black Leather Jacket, Black Hat, Black Printed PJ pants, who keeps going to Frank’s house.

         He is gone when police arrive. The caller was George-Neighborhood Watch, who admitted he didn’t know what the man was doing.

         From what I gathered from going over the call logs, this guy, I’ll call “Shaft”, unlike the other “suspicious black males”, shows up during the late evening.

         “Shaft” must have been too large and intimidating for the confessed murderer to pursue. “Shaft” appears to have gone to Frank Taaffe’s door several times, sounds like a business call to me.

         The other “suspicious black males”, showed up in the daytime, in most cases, were pairs. Trayvon appeared less threatening due to his tall, but string bean frame, and being alone.

         The Call Logs show Ofc. Timothy Smith responded to Twin Lakes-Retreat View on:

         1/29/12, pg. 44 – kids playing in street

         2/02/12, pg. 45 – Frank Taaffe’s home. (Ofc. T. Smith & Ofc. J. Mead @ approx. 9:00 pm.)

         2/26/12, pg. 47 – Trayvon Martin’s murder (Ofc. T. Smith, J. Mead, Ayala, etc.)

         I also noticed, from the call logs, the confessed murderer did not report incidents of “suspicious black males” prior to moving to Twin Lakes-Retreat View.

         Prior to moving there, quite a few of his calls to 911 or Non-emergency lines were made as he travelled along the highways, and pertained to anything but “suspicious black males”. In other words, it seems as though he didn’t become suspicious of black males until AFTER he moved to Twin Lakes-Retreat View.

         Another interesting thing about the call logs is, it gives you addresses for the various places the confessed murder lived before moving to Twin Lakes Retreat View.

         http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history

         T. G.

         • Sounds like somebody within the gated community could have (further) poisoned Zimmerman’s rather impressionable mind. Maybe it’s the neighbor that’s been talking most frequently on his behalf. Hmmmmm.

       • ““Shaft” must have been too large and intimidating for the confessed murderer to pursue. “Shaft” appears to have gone to Frank Taaffe’s door several times, sounds like a business call to me.”

         Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! My impression of that bell that goes off in your head when you realize somebody is talking racial fantasy. I agree it sounds like a sales call-back. Hopefully, debt collectors aren’t going door-to-door yet.

         My only question is were Ayala and Smith hired by the former chief that got ousted?

       • CommonSenseForChange,

         On May 25, 2012 #4:25pm

         YOU ASKED: “My only question is were Ayala and Smith hired by the former chief that got ousted?”

         ===========================================
         MY REPLY:

         I know it’s not much but I hope it helps some.

         CommonSenseForChange,

         Ok, here’s a short run down on officers Anthony Raimondo, Timothy Smith, and Ricardo Ayala. Based on their dates of employment, I believe they patrolled under former SPD Chief Tooley, then under former Chief Bill Lee.

         I think Chief Lee had only been chief for less than 1 year. Officer Timothy Smith was one amongst several SPD officers listed in the complaint about Sherman Ware, the black homeless man that Lt. Chris Collison’s son, Justin, brutally attacked.

         HERALD TRIBUNE OFFICE DATABASE

         ANTHONY RAIMONDO, 13 YEARS WITH SPD
         Anthony Raimondo was the officer in charge of the shooting scene. Raimondo had been involved in another controversial case in 2010.

         In that case, a young adult attacked a black homeless man. The perpetrator, Justin Collinson, was the son of a local police officer. Collinson was not arrested on scene. In that case, Anthony Raimondo was also the officer in charge.

         TIMOTHY M SMITH
         Sex: Male
         Race: White
         Birth Date: 11/1982
         Employment History
         Sanford Police Department
         Class: Law Enforcement
         Type: Full-Time
         Start Date: 4/21/2006
         Location: Seminole County
         Sanford Police Department
         Class: Law Enforcement
         Type: Part-Time
         Start Date: 12/5/2005
         Location: Seminole County
         Separation: (Separated on 4/21/2006) Transfer Within Agency (No break in service)
         ComplaintsCertificates
         Law Enforcement
         Status: Active
         Valid From: 5/12/2006 to 6/30/2014

         RICARDO AYALA
         Sex: Male
         Race: Hispanic
         Birth Date: 12/1974
         Employment History
         Sanford Police Department
         Class: Law Enforcement
         Type: Full-Time
         Start Date: 7/22/2002
         Location: Seminole County
         Seminole County Sheriff’s Office
         Class: Concurrent
         Type: Full-Time
         Start Date: 8/22/2000
         Location: Seminole County
         Separation: (Separated on 7/22/2002) Voluntary Separation (Not involving misconduct)
         Seminole County Sheriff’s Office
         Class: Correctional
         Type: Full-Time
         Start Date: 7/8/1997
         Location: Seminole County
         Separation: (Separated on 8/22/2000) Transfer Within Agency (No break in service)
         Lake County Sheriff’s Office
         Class: Correctional
         Type: Full-Time
         Start Date: 4/24/1996
         Location: Lake County
         Separation: (Separated on 6/30/1997) Voluntary Separation (Not involving misconduct)
         ComplaintsCertificates
         Law Enforcement
         Status: Active
         Valid From: 11/29/2000 to 6/30/2013
         Correctional
         Status: Inactive – 8 Year Break In Service
         Valid From: 5/27/1996 to 6/30/2008

         http://cops.htcreative.com/Officer/Details/114607

         Video 2010 Sanford Fl: Cop Son Caught On Camera Beating Black Homeless Man…Sergeant Anthony Raimondo Declined To Arrest Him; Same Sergeant That Didn’t Arrest Zimmerman

         http://theoriginalgreenwichdiva.com/sanford-florida-police-lieutenants-son-justin-collison-caught-on-camera-assaulting-a-homeless-man-but-he-is-not-in-jail/15613/

         http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-anthony-raimondo-first-officer-in-charge-of-scene-involved-in-previous-cover-up.php#46821243

         http://mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/9348594/article-Sanford-sergeant-suspended-%E2%80%93-Evidence-dismissed-in-arrest-made-by-officer

         T. G.

224. Listen to the 911 tape of gz not only does gz mention that tm is late teens he also states he doesnt want to give his address because he did not know where this kid is at. Would that make it more interesting that he said i thought he was a lil bit younger than me more suspecious since reffered to him as a kid also in the 911 tape.

     • Excellent point! Does anybody local know why Zimmerman’s perjury isn’t being discussed nationally?!?

       • yeah, wondered that too…but quick to make point about weakness in states case?! I’m sure state will bring that up either during the hearing for SYG or actual trial.

225. I love this blog!

     I have been trying to keep up, but I’m a little confused about why the first map was tossed out. I’m referring to the one here: https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg or this one showing the same speculation but with timings https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-timing.jpg

     The first one made the most sense to me. Zimmerman stopped breathing hard at just about the time he would have entered the grassy cut-through (not the one where the sidewalk with a tee, the other one several doors down from John’s house). Trayvon probably lingered in the area on the back path (where the kids played football) as he chatted with his girlfriend. By then, Trayvon thinks he’s lost the creepy guy that was following him. He doesn’t know that Zimmerman is approaching from grassy cut between the buildings.

     When they met up again on the back sidewalk path, I think Zimmerman forced him to backtrack towards the tee again.

     Why was this speculation ruled out?

     • Thank you.

       I was having an issue with the timing of Zimmerman saying Trayvon was AT the clubhouse (around :55) to the point which he presumably passes the parked vehicle by foot (1:30 ish) before running away.

       But, I don’t think the truck’s position in map one can be eliminated quite yet.

       • But what was the issue? I don’t see one so please help sort this y. My assumptions are that Trayvon Martin could have been forced to backtrack by Zimmerman to avoid confrontation, lingered to chat up his girlfriend some more, or he went back for non-nefarious reasons like to find something he dropped. I also think Trayvon Martin was surprised to encounter Zimmerman again since he thought he’d lost him.

226. Wonder if Trayvon dropped his key (or something else) when he ran and was headed back to get it. I guess we will never know, but it doesn’t make sense for someone to run from an stalker and then turn back for nefarious purposes. Does not compute.

227. Here are links to ac360’s interview with two witnesses who talked about the flashlight man:

     Trayvon Martin shooting witness breaks silence

     Eyewitness to the Trayvon Martin shooting speaks out

     That was weeks ago… The teacher is the one interviewed of April 7th. The one of Mar 29th must be a neighbor. She has two: One is of Philippine origins (Manalo Jonathan, 42) the other is of Indian origins (Selene Bahadoor, 39). None of them called 911 though Jonathan Manalo is in the 1st report as Witness.

     To my views, “John” isn’t flashlight man. He was on the phone with 911 dispatcher for two minutes. He called right after the gunshot, per what he says, and sees a man with a flashlight 1min in his call which is pretty much in line with other callers including the teacher:
     John: [beginning] “Police. I just heard a shot behind my house. They are wrestling outside the back of my porch.”
     John: [0’58”] “There is a guy with a flashlight in the backyard now. I think there’s flashlights and a guy. … I don’t know if that’s a cop. Oh, my God!”
     John: [1’21”] “There is two guys… There is two guys in the yard with flashlights… Hum, and there is a black guy down like he’s been shot, and he’s dead.”

     Teacher: [1’02”] “I [inaudible]. I don’t know. The man is up right now. Someone is coming over. I’m glad other people called.”

     I think everyone points at “John” as being Flashlight because he witnessed TM being on top of GZ during the struggle. It must be someone else.
     There are a few points I want to make here concerning Flashlight:
     1) Flashlight his a man. The article showing the picture of GZ’s head bleeding uses “him” in reference of Flashlight.
     2) No fear prevented him from going to a dark place where a gun was fired.
     3) He would help GZ with taking pictures and calling his wife.
     4) He would not call 911. At least, not while he is helping GZ.
     5) He must be coming from a house that is either north of the T or immediately accessing the crime scene. He would be coming from the South, he would have been seen by Selma and the lady at 2821 RVC. Selma went out seconds after the gunshot was heard. The lady at 2821 RVC would see the light spot scanning around but wouldn’t see a person. Selma, saw a person with a flashlight but won’t see if that’s LEO. Both were told by the dispatcher that it must be Police coming on site. I myself thought that it would be T. Smith reaching crime scene. Flashlight would have walked from the south, he would have crossed Selma while she was yelling toward GZ.

     • Excellent, excellent links – thank you!

       • just a quick point…GZ had two flashlights on him…small one attached to key chain and one of medium size as mentioned by state investigator at bound hearing. Is it possible he could’ve one with flash light initially?

       • Have you seen this:
         Frank Taaffe
         http://www.seminolemugshots.com/arrest_card_inquiry.php?n=89224_Frank-Taaffe_Seminole_Mugshot_5c9d924f33189e7b9b709d4ed6f7e644

         • http://www.womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?id=496&state_code=FL

           I can’t believe Frank Taaffe ever had a stage. Anybody know where Joe Oliver faded to?

           • This Joe Oliver? I wouldn’t want to have a beer with this guy!

             Lawrence O’Donnell And Charles Blow Give George Zimmerman Pal Joe Oliver Epic Grilling

             http://www.mediaite.com/tv/lawrence-odonnell-and-charles-blow-give-george-zimmerman-pal-joe-oliver-epic-grilling/

             • Yeah, that Joe Oliver! I saw one interview – it may have been the Last Word interview you posted – where Oliver said he’d be the first one marching with a hoodie on if Zimmerman ended up being full of shit. Time to start marching, brah.

     • I’m listening to THIS LINK now.

       I get the impression this witness started looking before the shot was fired.
       Saw the two men, one on top of the other, heard the shot, then saw the man on top get up. (?)

       No talk of them rolling over or changing positions. But observed that “the Hispanic male” got up after the shot. If so, this witness is putting TM on the bottom(??) Obviously, after the shot, only GZ could get up!

       Witness says he(?) heard two shots. Makes me thing that there are hard surfaces in the area, a gunshot will echo on a hard surface, making one shot sound like two. [I’ve got this video open in another window so back to listening now]

       Curiously he can see well enough to say that, from a side view of GZ he can tell he’s Hispanic, but he can’t say who was on top??? He can’t see the red color of GZ jacket, but he can see that he’s Hispanic?

       In any event, his story does not contain “he turned around and fell down”, as GZ claimed.

       All I can say is there’s something very fishy about this witnesses story.

       I also note that his story appears to say that GZ and TM were probably out there walking in some pretty heavy rain. Since this rain seems more proximal to the fighting, than to the rain TM was sheltering from earlier.

       Now I’m going to listen to the NEXT LINK HERE

       Not much there except that GZ was on top when the shot was fired. It’s vexing that they can’t say who got up, the man on the top or the bottom. Since, for the bottom one to get up, one would have to fall over and/or squirm out from under the one on top, who would no longer be upright, but sprawled over. They, somehow, don’t see the man on top simply get up. Go figure!

228. I have reconstructed the list of Witnesses in the initial Police Report.

     W/M 4/18/1982 (30) (1221 TTL) (Johnathan Good aka John)
     W/F 7/28/1980 (31) (1211 TTL) (Jennifer Lauer)
     O/M 6/17/1969 (42) (2861 RVC) (Jonathan Manalo)
     W/F 6/7/1975 (36) (XXXX RVC) ()
     W/F 8/25/1955 (56) (2851 RVC) (Teacher)
     W/M 8/28/1981 (30) (1211 TTL) (Jeremy Weinberg)

     This work is based on the Police report that shows:
     race: W(hite), B(lack), O(ther)
     gender: M(ale), F(emale)
     DOB: MM/DD/YYYY
     Address: Edited Out
     Name: Edited Out

     The address can only be from two streets:
     XXXX TWIN TREES LN SANFORD, FL (30 characters)
     XXXX RETREAT VIEW CIR SANFORD, FL (33 characters)

     I used the length of the marker lines used to hide the address, to pick from which street the witnesses are. This was made easier by the fact that those lengths were pretty consistent and could easily be sorted in two groups.

     In a previous work, which partial results were posted in a map of witness I could link addresses with names. Thus:
     Selma (31) owns 2931 RVC. She also use that address for her business.
     Jennifer Lauer (31) owns 1211 TTL. She a a Realtor agent for a company
     co-owned by Jeremy Weinberg (30), who happen to be using her
     address for some of his business.
     Johnathan Good (30) aka “John” just married Amanda Selja (28),
     the owner 1221 TTL.
     Jonathan Manalo (42) owns 2861 RVC together with Jeannie (37).
     They are of Philippines origins. He is probably the witness on
     ac360 on March 29th. Like the teacher, he heard the argument
     prior to the cries for help, he saw GZ walking after the gunshot and
     saw Flashlight coming. It seems like he never called 911.
     Bahadoor Selene (39) owns 2841 RVC. She also uses that address
     for a business. She is from India. She doesn’t appear on the
     Police report. There is no indication she called 911 or witnessed
     anything.
     ZA Properties LLC owns 2851 RVC. This is where I place the
     Former Teacher who would be the 56 yo woman in the report.
     ZA rents the place.
     Gustavo Demartino (49) owns 1231 TTL. This is the address LEO
     T Smith responded to 1st. This is where I place “white t-shirt”.
     White t-shirt says she is 30. If that address was used by a
     dispatcher then it must be from an early caller; white t-shirt is one.
     Moreover, she saw the white t-shirt from inside her house =>
     she must have been very close; 1231 is very close . However,
     I have to admit that I couldn’t find any link between a 30yo femal
     and Gustavo. He maybe renting the place directly to her.
     Ullman Teresa (56) owns 2821 RVC. This is the 2nd address given to
     LEO T Smith. This is where he parked. I guess she is the caller
     Who cared for an elderly person 4 doors north of hers; suggesting
     her place is pretty south as 2821 RVC is. Moreover, that caller
     hasn’t witnessed much suggesting she was indeed remote from
     the crime scene. Interesting though is that she worked for a
     school in Sanford. Is she our Teacher caller? I don’t think so
     as her house is too far south.

     I used the information on gender, age & race to finalize the correlation between the police report and the callers.

     The one witness I still can’t pin on the map is Austin McLendon.

     • Austin McLendon’s address doesn’t matter so much as he was the 13 year old kid out walking his dog when he saw and heard Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman interacting negatively. I think this is also the person that said he saw them wrestling, but later saw them separated and apart from each other before the shot.

       • I believe knowing Austin movements may help screening out hypothesis.
         For example, we could learn more about where Flashlight came from or didn’t came from.

         You maybe right… I’m too obsessed with details.

         Could you give a link or ref to the report stating Austin saw them apart before the gunshot?

       • That’s interesting Common, I had not read about the kid seeing them separated and apart from each other before the shot. This puts a whole new light on the subject. Isn’t this the kid whose mother denied the statement Sanford police misrepresented what he told them?. Btw, I am enjoying reading your recent posts.

     • OMG what a lot of work you’ve done….crikey i’m gonna have to take some time to read this. So you know who john is…wow, now all we need is to know if he has any links to Mr Z. Good job.

       • Jo, Frank Taffee has stated previously when the bloody head photo was revealed that he knows the person who took it and he and George are friends…this same person that GZ also asked to call his wife and tell her he just shot somebody. Wouldn’t ask that of just any bystander

         • Do you have a link? And, jeez – is Taaffe really the best person that should be speaking for Zimmerman?

     • @tchoupie and Caroline:

       Here’s the link to the witness Austin McLendon seeing George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin separated PRIOR to the shooting, but AFTER the altercation started: http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T5nfY6vwstF

       I also believe the position of Austin McLendon during his dog walk is important, but I think overwhelmingly what we’ve seen indicates that Austin McLendon’s path was near the shooting since doggie cleanup dump stations were along the path we’re discussing — the back path where the doggie poop collection can was situated.

       And, yes, Caroline.. this IS the same child whose Mom did an interview stating that the police investigator tried to lead the son into sayiing something different than what he saw.

       That police officer was Chris Serino and I don’t believe the officer was doing anything conspiratorial, btw. I think he may have been simply trying to help close out the investigation based on what he found to be insignificant “facts” — as institutional racism and the policies that are inculcated often tend to do.

       • Was this after the shooting though…

         “Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.”

         • What?!? What is GZ doing on the ground separated from TM, AFTER the shooting? He says that after he fired, TM, turned around and fell down. Then he lunged on top of him. So, if he’s on the ground after the shooting, and separated from TM, then his grass stains are now thrown into question.

           So now his account of the matter is causing the evidence he’s trying to use in his favor, to become questionable. GZ is some piece of work!

           Worse yet, he doesn’t take direction very well, as his previous lawyers have learned.

           My guess on the shooting, however, would be that, GZ made some use of the NW “tree” to track Trayvon, initially the intent was probably just to beat him up or something, but after Zim realized he’d broken so many NW rules he learned in the 14 SPD course, if TM survived to tell his story, GZ feared he’d be publicly humiliated by being taken off the NW. A humiliation he could not tolerate at this point in his life. So, in a fit of fear, confusion and anger, he decided that TM should not be allowed to tell his side of the story.

           Oh wait, I’m forgetting how GZ’s wounds fit in, yeah!

           Let’s say that someone on the tree wants to cause TM some anguish, so he calls GZ who prepares the wounds and goes out on the hunt. The plan is to get TM arrested for assault, and is only circulated between a tight few members.

           Things progress as they do, but towards the end, there’s that altercation, and GZ realizes that now there’s going to be more to the story than just his word against TM’s. In his mind, an investigation will show he’s broken all of the NW rules, so the SPD can’t afford to keep him on the NW. He’d be publicly humiliated to have his NW command taken away, since he has a thin personality to begin with, he over reacts to defend his public persona, the only way he can, prevent TM from telling his side of the story.

           The thought of being publicly humiliated can be a very powerful, if transient, emotion. In GZ’s case, probably enough to get him to pull the trigger.
           Well, it’s certainly something to look at, because it also explains why there’s someone at the scene with a camera at-the-ready, with the presence of mind to snap a photo of GZ’s head wounds. Under this conjecture I’ve created, this would have been a planned part of the story, but not supposed to include TM’s death, just his arrest for assault. A very serious charge with GZ bleeding from head wounds.

           Okay, I’m “throwing things at the wall” here, but not far from the evidence we have. After all, all we can do is think about things, in the hopes that something coherent will emerge.

       • @No Longer Mass Emailing

         April 26, 2012 at 6:59 pm
         Was this after the shooting though…

         I got the distinct impression that Austin McLendon “saw” what he saw BEFORE the gunshot because his dog got off his leash and he went running after it and could then only be an ear witness of the actual gunshot.

         Also, caller/tape 7 of the 9-1-1 calls is the school teacher that said she saw from her window what happened and then called 9-1-1 after the pop and identified to 9-1-1 dispatch that the child was screaming for help and that the man walking away had just admitted to police that he was the killer. She made it clear in her call that she thought it was the child screaming for help, so the police, unless they spent her stated facts, had evidence as of day one that disputed Zimmerman’s account.

         Caller/tape 5 said she saw only a flashlight (not multiple) and called immediately upon hearing the “bang” can help with exact time of shooting if the time of her call can be found. If nothing else, it can eliminate the callers after hers as the time of shooting.

         Caller/tape 4 is the scared 30-year old female that saw the white tee-shirt gut on top, but also stated it was too dark to see anything else as far as identifying whether anyone was white, black or hispanic.

         Caller/tape 3 is the one who caught the screams for help on the 9-1-1- call and tells Jeremy to “get in here now!”. She says multiple people are yelling now which was immediately after the shot was heard fired — mere seconds after you can hear the gunshot. Who was yelling at that point???? The proclaimation people are “yelling down there” came approx 85 seconds after the gunshot. Did the police arrive seconds after the shooting, or is the yelling she heard Zimmerman telling John to call his wife or Mary and her friend yelling at George prior to her and Jeremy’s escape to upstairs? Who did the caller on tape 3 hear yelling on the scene seconds after the fatal shot was fired?

         Caller/Tape 2 (probably John) claims he heard (past tense) a shot right behind his and afterwards claims “they are wrestling and someone is yelling help” (present tense) as if after the shot came, the wrestling and screams for help came. His account to the dispatch is completely implausible. He says that if what he just heard wasn’t a shot, it was a rocket or a window or something and states for the record that he is not going outside. Dispatch asks about the voices he heard and the caller cuts off the dispatcher’s line of questioning. He also says that there “are multiple people calling right now, I’m thinking”. This came after dispatch mentioned several calls came in. This guy is reprocessing out loud what dispatch has said. Could be due to nervousness or due to something else. He also says in seemingly real time that there is one guy with a flashlight outside and then a few seconds later indicates there are others (police) with flashlights walking around outside.

         On another note, when George Zimmerman tries to give his address, he starts off with 1590… What was his address? If Zimmerman’s address was 1590 Retreat View Circle and Taaffe lives at 1460 Retreat View Circle, they were only a few doors away from each other and both were near the broken fence area of the complex.

229. It’s a good thing we’re working with the supposition that Zimmerman’s acting alone. But, for the sake of argument, what if he wasn’t? Then we could have “white T’shirt” up the path, blocking Trayvon’s way home, forcing him to turn back north. Or point out to Zimmerman, where Trayvon went to hide.

     Well that’s just a thought, there’s still nothing to say Zim didn’t act alone.

     Still I remain unconvinced so far, that his wounds were obtained at the site in a fight. And because the evidence seems to say, that wounds that might support his claims, he didn’t want inspected by a medical pro, seems to say there’s something fishy about them, more than meets the eye, so to speak.

     I’ve read people say they look more like small sharp force injuries, rather than the blunt force injuries they should be, and the blood drips go the wrong way for the narrative that supposedly creates them, they’re also not as dirty and messy as they should be for wet pavement bashing and grass rolling. Reason enough to allow speculation that they were created somewhere else, at another time.

     • ITA. GZs wounds after being cleaned up and taken into custody are sort of vertical; but in the photo at least the top one is somewhat horizontal.

230. While working on an email to explain my views of the head wounds, it just occurred to me: One reason why Zimmerman would want to hide them from a media, would be if they were sharp force wounds! Since that would be a one way ticket to prison for life!

231. Here’s my reply to an email on the case:

     Good, a question rather than a challenge. I have a serious problem with challenges at this point because none of us has the information to cut off much of any speculation at this point. Thus it isn’t reasonable to challenge each other, all we can do is question each
     other about how their theories/speculations work or not.

     Yes it was raining. Trayvon’s girlfriend says that Trayvon was ducking under awnings in the area, because the rain was heavy at times. When he came inside the front gate, he had to pause for 4 to 5 minutes under an awning, because of the heavy rain, he spent this time talking to her.

     I speculate that because Trayvon’s body shows no signs that he had been in a fight
     of any kind, as per the mortician who examined the body and found no markings to
     indicate a fight. Yet, we know from Zimmerman’s accounts that a very vigorous and
     violent fight had to have taken place. Zimmerman says that Trayvon discovered his
     gun before he remembered he had one. He says they struggled for control of it.
     That has got to yield some really good scratches and scrapes, bruises and welts as
     they twist and grip each others wrists and try to break each others grips. But there’s
     no evidence of it. So, we can say it didn’t happen.

     Then there’s the configuration of the wounds themselves. The head was supposedly
     bashed hard on wet pavement, and that was supposed to have opened head wounds
     which bleed profusely especially when coupled with high blood pressure of excitement
     and vigorous exertions. Then, the still freshly wounded and bleeding head, would be
     rubbed vigorously in wet grass.

     Next according to Zimmerman, it isn’t clear at all what happened, because he says:
     I drew the gun and fired, hitting him in the chest. (this would be while he was still
     laying on his back). Then he says: He [Martin] said “you got me” twice, then turned around and fell down!

     How could Trayvon turn around and fall down, if he’d been sitting on top of Zimmerman at the time? He’d have had to be standing to turn around and fall down. Thus Zimmerman would have had to shoot him, while they were both standing up! Which would comport with the morticians findings that no fight had occurred.

     Yet, somehow witnesses are there to claim they saw someone on top of Zimmerman, but we have no idea who this was. It could have been someone hiding nearby, who came out and sat on Zimmerman after he laid down, the got up and left, we’d have no way to know.

     But, assuming that the mortician is right, then Zimmerman’s wounds could not have
     been caused in any fight with Trayvon. Only if someone there at the scene cut him. But that’s ruled out, because of the length of run of the blood. It seems that the blood had a pretty good run, was wiped and smeared on the other side of Zimmerman’s head. But the area around the bleeding wounds is pretty clear for having rolled in the dirt and loose
     grit of a lawn. Let alone not showing the blunt force trauma of being bashed on a flat surface.

     So, it is because of these things, and a few more besides that have to do with the timeline of Zimmerman’s supposed trip to the store being interrupted by him spotting a suspicious person and all. You see, he lives about 30 to 40 seconds from the front gate. Trayvon waited 4 to 5 minutes. all but out of sight under the awning, near the front gate.

     Zimmerman doesn’t spot Trayvon until after he comes out from under the awning and
     begins walking past the clubhouse. So it’s very problematic that Zimmerman would arrive at the front gate, with shopping on his mind, just a few seconds after TM had started walking again. This is because, almost as soon as Zimmerman would be appearing to spot Trayvon, Zimmerman is already convinced that Trayvon knows he’s being watched and followed. I keep looking at different timelines and they all seem to say the same thing.
     That Zimmerman spots Trayvon and knows that Trayvon knows he’s being followed almost at first sight.

     In any event, getting back to the wounds and blood, there’s no time for this
     artifact to be created, given the attention it needs, until before Zimmerman starts
     out of his garage. If so, then Zimmerman needs a spotter to actually track Trayvon and report his movements. Because that’s the only way he can align his actions with the
     events that occur.

     Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that any of this happened that way! All I’m saying is that these are possible explanations as to how, what we’ve been given, lines up the way it does. If there’s something that short circuits this line of speculation, I don’t see it yet in the evidence. Instead I see even more to be suspicious of.

     Why, if these wounds are such an important part of his defense, does he refuse
     the ambulance that’s been called to treat his wounds? Since that would be more and
     impartial documentation of them. He should be heavily in favor of this, but the second ambulance, the one specifically sent for him, is canceled. The police report says he was treated at the scene, but at the scene, there’s no one to administer any treatment. The ambulance that does arrive, consumes it’s time attempting to resuscitate Trayvon.
     All of the other officers account for their time at the scene, none of them say they
     stopped to treat Zimmerman. So all we have is an allusion that Zimmerman was
     treated at the scene, but no one to say that they administered any treatment, nor
     anyone who even saw him being treated. Not before he was placed in the squad car,
     nor during that time, nor after. He arrives at the station with his wounds in the same
     condition as we see in this picture take at the scene. No cleaning and no bandages.

     So, why, in what might become a capital case, would he avoid having his wounds
     examined by a medical person? Especially when it would be to his benefit to do so?
     The only good answer is: It would not have been in his best interest to have a medical
     person examine his wounds. And the only reason that would be, would be because
     the wounds were not as fresh or were otherwise not what they were supposed to be.
     If they were sharp force injuries he’d have to hide that for certain! Because that would
     be a one way ticket to jail for life!

     They would have to have been prepared before he left home or his garage, and that would mean this whole thing was planned to as much an extent as it could be. This would be
     why he wouldn’t call Trayvon over to the car and simply identify himself and ask what Trayvon was doing entering the gated community. He couldn’t let Trayvon see the blood he was hiding behind on his head, because that might cause Trayvon to flee out the front gate or up Twin Trees.

     In any event, if the wounds were prepared elsewheres, then that means Zimmerman had
     “spotters” keeping track of Trayvon. It would explain how he knows when to prepare the wounds, lay in the grass and begin driving to the front gate in time to meet Trayvon.
     But, even then, things go wrong, Trayvon stops under that awning, forcing Zimmerman to have to park and wait. Instead of just catching him coming back from the store, while on his own way out the front gate.

     So there you have it for now.

     • Well said — thank you for sharing!

       • Then, I get another email questioning more of the facts about that day, such as “Florida grass is different than Calif. grass”, “how heavy was the rain” and more like that. So here was my answer:

         These are questions for the forensics lab techs to answer, we don’t have that
         information, we probably wouldn’t have it, even if they do. Perhaps the SP will have tests run. If so, we’ll have to wait for the trial.

         On the other hand, unless some hard evidence is found by someone that supports this avenue of speculation, I sincerely doubt the SP will go to such lengths.

         The reason I posted this avenue of speculation to the web, was not to incite anything, but to encourage people to look for and ask the kind of questions that may reveal information that might otherwise be dismissed. Dismissed because no avenue of entry had been opened, that would make such information seem useful. Such information could either increase suspicion or end this line of pursuit.

         I would like to see the SP, for example, look at the phone records of Zimmerman, and others involved (the witnesses, one “helpful one of whom, it has been discovered has a criminal record), to see if any of them made or received calls from one another, and perhaps someone at 711, around the time of these events. If so, that could be pointing to a conspiracy of some sort.

         But we’re not looking this way without reasons. As I point out:

         1. There’s reason to be suspicious of Zimmerman’s wounds:

         a) Since they don’t appear to be caused by blunt force.
         b) They don’t appear to have been rolled around on grass during a vigorous fight.
         c) They don’t appear to be as “fresh” as they should be.
         d) Trayvon bears no marks of any such fight.

         2. There’s reason to be suspicious of how they were actually created and when.

         a) You would think, from the narrative, either he or the police would want them professionally viewed and treated quickly, because of the possibility of infection to say the least.

         b) You would think that Zimmerman would want them officially documented by
         qualified medical personnel, since they back up his story of an attack on himself.

         c) He has to know that his story is already conflicted, which he would know leads even more vigorous questionings. So, it pays for him to have his own evidence secured by more than just hearsay and unqualified opinions.

         Just to list a few of the reasons why these questions are a valid consideration.

       • really good points lonnie

       • NLME good pick up on the Taaffe address….remember how zims father said martin was going behind houses and not on the sidewalk? well there is nowhere that zimmerman could have seen him do that from the clubhouse to the cut off because there were no back yards along that street….so maybe you are correct that he was watched from the nw corner when he cut through, maybe by zimmerman as he was driving up the street or perhaps by Taaffe. I doubt that Taaffe would just call Zim and leave him to it though, so if he had called zim about martin cutting through. I bet he was out there on the chase too……(total speculation but if he notified zim i doubt he would have stayed in his house)

     • I don’t believe it was premeditated. Z was a wannabe cop, not a wannabe murderer of a random stranger.

       Anyone seeing TM leave the complex would not alert Z , as unlikely he’d be coming back. (As for the idea floated elsewhere that 711 had warned him…pfftt)

       Someone seeing him enter from between buildings on the NW corner might have alerted him. He could then drive around looking for him. To hold him, not to kill him.

       He may have had, almost certainly did have, help afterwards (John). Even may have (though there is no evidence for it) taken a shortcut through his house to get onto the path less visibly to M.

       The injury is consistent with one single bash against the edge of a concrete path. Pity rain would have washed off any evidence of this, even if the police had bothered to look for it. It would have gone a long way to establishing where the fight started, useful for finding out the distance from there to the body. So useful for establishing the truth or otherwise of the urgent need for self-defence.

       • Unrelated to last night’s comment about Frank Taaffe (and Joe Oliver) but has anybody asked what the relationship between Frank Taafe and Zimmerman is? Friend? Friend and Neighbor?

         If so, anybody know Frank Taafe’s address? I hope he doesn’t live in the Northwest corner of the gated community. I could just as simply google the above, figure out where he lives, etc. instead of asking but this route is more interesting.

         • A) It’s well known that Zimmerman & Taaffe were friends AND neighbors.

           http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-03/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting-burglaries_1_burglary-incidents-police-documents-black-males?_s=PM:JUSTICE

           B) A few minutes ago I found Taaffe’s address on Zaba Search – here’s a screenshot from my phone:

           

           Harrowing given my original comment. At this point, we just need to see anybody’s/everybody’s phone records.

           There’s no way Taaffe comes out in support of Zimmerman if it’s found out that Taaffe called Zimmerman about a teen wandering around the neighborhood before the shooting, right?

           I wonder if the gated community bought CB radios for the neighborhood captains and watchers. If so, those speculated phone calls become harder to track down.

       • okay, then, I revise my map.

         Instead of Z heading to Target, he’s heading to that same spot because a friend who lived on that corner told him someone’s taking a shortcut between those buildings.

         The rest of the story is the same.

         What colour shirt was Taaffe wearing that night?

       • NMLE, According to the Grio article below, Frank Taffe has been a resident of Twin Towers for six years. I too wonder what his actual address is. One of the comments on your blog speculates a Look Out may have tipped off Zimmerman of Trayvon Martin walking in the community that evening. That’s a very good possibility and I hope his phone records are thorougly investigated to see who he spoke with prior to all this. It seems so odd that Zimm would just so happen to spot Trayvon entering the community at that moment.

         http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-frank-taaffe.php

         • I must have missed the comment suggesting Taaffe forewarned Zimmerman. 😦

           Here’s his address…

           

           The cut through near Taaffe’s place makes more sense than the cut through just north of his address if you see them from google street view. I’ll post some google street views soon.

       • @aussie neutral outsider:

         I take your opinion as being as good as mine. So, don’t worry I’m not “invested” in it. I know that we are missing a whole bunch of facts as we try to work through this stuff.

         It’s just that when I “added” up the mysteries of the wounds, the lack of fight marks on TM, etc., the idea came to me that this could be a possible explanation. I don’t try to factor in what GM’s state of mind would or could be, unless it’s to point out what is “normally expected” whatever that means. Well, yes, it means that if someone behind you taps you on the left shoulder, we “normally expect” you to turn to your left to see who did it. That kind of thing, which we also know doesn’t occur for every instance.

         Okay, one point from me: I don’t think TM was at the complex long enough to be versed in shortcuts. My guess is, he only knew the way to the 711, because he’d been driven by it on the way back to the house.
         It’s a simple route to remember, “out the front gate, turn left, stay straight
         to store”. He’d come back the same way. Because, I’d guess like I do, I might see what could be a short cut, but, after trying things like that over time, one soon learns that it’s easy to become lost, when the “short cut” turns out not to lead where you expected.

         It’s dark and it’s raining, he’s distracted by talking to his girlfriend on the phone. So he’s got enough on his plate without having to keep a careful watch on his path, if he took an unknown route and had to retrace.

         So that’s why I think he came in the front gate and not through a cut through you’d have to already know was not obstructed before you walked towards it from outside.

         Okay, back to the fray.

       • Also there’s another very good reason that TM would not want to stray from the main road. As blacks and perhaps youth would know, being seen climbing through bushes, walking along deserted back paths is just asking for trouble, most especially in a new neighborhood, where people don’t know you, you don’t know them, and you don’t know either the route or the rules. It just becomes too psychologically prohibitive to experiment on a dark rainy night.

         • I agree. Assuming there was an option to enter the front gate after 7 pm.

           • After sleeping on it, I realized that there are also some very strong reasons why TM would actually welcome a longer walk. To talk to his gf, out of earshot of his parents/elders. At 17 a 2 mile walk is invigorating, not a problem and Fla. has warm rains, so it’s not as unpleasant to walk in the rain as it is at higher lats.

             • Not in a snarky tone but I literally don’t care what Trayvon was doing instead of home…he was being STALKED.

       • Thanks, Lonnie Star.

         TM had stayed there before, apparently. His father said he used to play football with other youths on the estate. And a cousin, I think? this is why he thought he may have gone to the movies with him.

         A bunch of young guys wandering around and playing games on an estate would know all the shortcuts, no time at all.

         While we’re on the father not worrying….and they’ve kept the little boy, the fiance’s son, sensibly out of all this….. I think Trayvon goes out for the skittles, the kid is watching the game. He’s not worried about Trayvon not coming home, he’s not used to him being there anyway.

         Doe he hear sirens? even if curious, why go out and get wet for nothing?

         He goes to bed. Father and finance come home, driving in the back gate…and go to the front of their house which is where the garages are. They see the young boy asleep, they do NOT wake him to ask where Tray went, they just assume he’s out with a friend/cousin. 17 is not a baby, he doesn’t live there, he has no curfew or rules about leaving a note if you go out.

         They figure he’ll be in about midnight. But 8 am he’s not there. And younger kid wakes up and says, he only went across the street for skittles.

         And maybe then he remembers he thinks there were what might have been sirens not long after he left.

         Then the sky falls in on them.

         oh heck.

         Poor John Doe. Well, police DO look at cell phones at an incident. ALL they look for is an ICE number (In Case of Emergency) . Everyone should have one set up.

         They’re not going to call the last people you called…pizza shop, mechanic, kid’s school, aunt in Canada….. to find out who you are.

         But the phone logs of who called who from say 6.50 pm onwards are going to be telling the story.

         The injured head photo? some people say he could have a phone to his ear? “daddy i just shot someone what do I do?” — wasn’t wifey, he got someone else to call her.

         • Yeah – all the phone logs will be interesting. For sure!

           • Well that supports that he probably had knowledge of the cut through short cuts. Still, the very idea, to me, that he left home at that time, for such a long, low priority trip, kinda says he wants to get out of the house. So, he’s probably in no hurry to get back, seeing as he has his gf on the phone.

             When you have nothing else on your agenda, small preferences loom big in the decision making processes.

             And yes, the phone logs are made more necessary to be examined, because the NW materials instructs them to create “notification trees”, people who can, or want to be called, when there is some activity going on, and who will assist by monitoring thru their windows, report to the active NW patrol people, and forward calls between the membership. People on these trees have no patrol duties. They are an information chain only.

             I get the general impression that Taaffe thinks he’s signed on for NW, but in reality he’s only put himself on the tree. GZ hasn’t told this intimate friend about the 14 course the SPD required/asked him to take.

             It’s not so far fetched then, to realize that someone on this tree, might also have a friend who works at the 711. So, like your evidence regarding the short cut, there’s a good indication that there may be something here as well. At least it’s grounded in a wee bit more than the speculation I originally thought I was sprouting. 🙂

     • Zimmerman’s, his wife’s, John’s and dear old Mr. Taaffe’s phone records — land lines and cell phones — are all going to be important. If the map is correct, Taaffe’s address is very much near the spot that on other blogs a broken fence/shortcut is shown to be available. Taaffe’s address and its correlation to the other bloggers speculation that Trayvon used an imperfection in a fence along his path to re-enter the community is something to think about. Didn’t know prior to the map posting that Taaffe lived right there near the broken fence.

       What I have seen of Taaffe in his interviews with the press is that he thinks Zimmerman may have just snapped due to recent break-ins and his frustration over that. Can’t find the vid now, but damnit,Taaffe said it was justified to suspect young black males of potential crimes and George probably had just had enough! I saw him say something to that effect in a televised interview!

       All I can find now are google results for Zimmerman’s co-worker who says Zimmerman snapped. This is terrible because I KNOW that Taaffe said the same thing long before the co-worker’s news statements. I remember it clearly because I thought at the time I heard it that this guy has GOT to be the worst friend ever when it comes to defending a so-called friend or acting as a witness on a friend’s behalf. He certainly didn’t help his friend with declarations like his!

       I thought at that time that George Zimmerman could only be working his friends for a possible insanity plea before charges were even brought.

       • He lives in the most southern unit of the diagonal building. Per a partial google street view and full satellite view, there’s no gate, wall, or fencing of any sorts between his building and the next. Food for thought.

         And, that link definitely exists. I just saw it today and will try to find it again. Taaffe basically said Zimmerman was upset his neighborhood was getting looted by young black males and snapped.

       • “I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn’t going to take it anymore.”

         Who is Frank Taafe?

         http://skeweddistribution.com/2012/04/03/the-trayvon-martin-case-why-frank-taaffe-is-as-scary-as-george-zimmerman/

       • woah..did he just provide some insight into georges recent state of mind. mad as hell and with a loaded gun…good one friend.

232. Search – trayvon yellow tarp – to see numerous video detailing the location of the body. The building is roughly 120 feet long and 40 feet wide. Looks like Trayvon is roughly 15-20 feet south of the edge of the building and around 30-35 feet south of the T. Various other maps place Trayvon further south by an additional 20-30 feet or so. Can realistically imagine Zimmerman staggering south perhaps up to 15 feet or so. Which would mean that he walked at least 15 feet down the T on his own volition. Which does not seem so so excessive if he was otherwise walking across the top of the T to return to his truck. If Trayvon was approaching him from the north. But if Trayvon was approaching him from the south then it means that he did some snooping after being told to quit. Sticking his nose where it did not belong.

     • Exactly.

       P.S. I searched what you mentioned and found this screenshot taken from the local news’ coverage that night.

       

       I’m not sure what’s under the partially visible tarp but the confrontation’s location was definitely more than 15 feet south of the T per basically everything I’ve read/seen.

     • oh holy shit…that’s nowhere near the sidewalk….notice the woman looking out her window in the background. I actually shed a friggin tear today over this and don’t know why. This kid was just going home.

       • Jo, I can relate to your emotions. When I first heard those screams for help I cried my eyes out and then the anger welled up inside over all this. One could never imagine a parents pain of losing a child who had only just turned 17. It brought back memories of my own son when he was that age.

       • hi caroline, it is really emotional isn’t it, He shouldn’t have been followed, scared or had to deal with this adult packing heat. He should not be vilified by other so called adults trying to justify what zimmerman did. His parents have been so dignified and Trayvons brother seems like a lovely young man and testament to their parenting. I don’t know how they have coped but all this together makes it so heartbreaking. Thanks for your reply i appreciate it.

       • No reply button below Jo. Just wanted to say I enjoy reading your take on this case. I also think so many of the comments on this site are well thought out and reasoned upon.

     • Interesting pic NLME. Thanks

       It looks like it was taken from Jeremy’s/Jennifer’s back porch.
       If that’s the case then the lady is our Teacher.

     • The killing had to occur more than 15-20 feet beyond the estimate because it occurred in John’s back yard and he lives adjacent to the teacher based on 9-1-1 calls and other news accounts by witneses. If each home is 40-feet wide, it had to be 40+ feet down the path since it occurred behind the number 2 home.

233. Tina,

     Could you post a link to the report that give the list of items held by GZ?
     Was there a cell phone?
     I’m asking because he seems to be on the phone on the picture of the back of his head. Actually, he was on the phone with Police for 4min so where was his cell phone?
     More generally, I was wondering what could have disappeared beyond Mr.s Flashlight.

     • Wow, never thought about that. Especially if Zimmerman was friendly with John and/or anybody else on the scene.

234. Issue 1: who attacked who — did TM double back to start an attack or not? for this it is relevant when they first saw each other, in what direction Z was driving (and therefore parked), which way TM could have run consistent with the timings………… and I am sure he did not start off towards the T in the path and hang around. The time he allegedly could have “run home safely” was spent on some round-about chasing and hiding .

     For this we need to see what the path of this could have been. The “run home” is also based on the theory that he could have entered the home from the back entrance…….what if he could not? then running to it was useless to him. And then he’d not go on that pathway, either, except to hide/escape from being followed.

     Issue 2: did Z really have no other way of saving himself from the “fear for his life”… let us accept he DID fear despite the minor injuries, as he’d have no way to know how far they’d escalate. Here a LOT depends on

     * when TM became aware there was a gun involved (if before he struck a blow, then SYG is firmly on his side)
     * what help was available to Z before he pulled the gun …….NOT before he pulled the trigger, as if that was a very short time he could still be following through from the original fear/need to defend, without having had time to mentally process that it was no longer necessary (very trivial example of this effect: horns being blown in warning AFTER two vehicles have already collided).

     • What help was available to Z? He had a gun. Based on his supposed fear (indicated by his “he’s coming to check me out” statement to 9-1-1 dispatch), I have no reason to believe he approached Trayvon Martin without his gun drawn and ready.

       • He was super concerned at the 1:30 mark of his 911 call too.

235. I don.t understand how the bloody head photo appears to show balding on the crown of the head when no other photos of G show any balding.

236. Another question I’m trying to clear up is:

     It appears that Zimmerman, who supposedly only arrives in the front gate area, first seems to see Trayvon, when he’s out walking past the clubhouse?

     Since it doesn’t make sense that Zim can arrive twice in this area. If he first notices Trayvon out walking past the clubhouse area, then he can’t have noticed him, when he was taking cover from the rain, under that awning.

     But, if Zimmerman arrives at the front gate area, in time to see Trayvon taking shelter from the rain, then he has to wait some time for Trayvon to leave his shelter, because Martin waits there for the rain to stop. What’s so suspicious about a person taking cover from heavy rain? You’d think that Zimmerman would continue out the front gate, on an errand so pressing that he decided to leave his house despite the rain, eh?

     Why stop and wait several minutes for the rain to stop, staring at someone merely taking shelter from it?

     Besides the fact that would mean that Zimmerman started tracking Trayvon, for several minutes before Trayvon started walking home, and passed in front of the clubhouse/mailboxes. All of which means that Zimmerman was out looking for trouble, not merely headed out to the store on an errand, which is merely a made up excuse for him being there in the rain, in the first place, which is very suspicious from Trayvon’s point of view.

     Now that makes more sense, since when he backs his truck over by the cut through, before Trayvon arrives in that area, he can say that Trayvon has already realized that he [Zimmerman] was following Trayvon, and that Martin was coming towards him to “check him out”.

     Zimmerman has to know that his actions would have made anyone come to “check him out”. But, if the person you were following knew you were following him, would he be likely to engage in a crime, even if he was a criminal with criminal intent? Probably not, would be the most popular conclusion. So, then, perhaps the best course [since it’s unlikely you’re going to catch the suspect committing any crime] is to identify yourself as NW and ask the suspect where he lives/what he’s doing there!

     The point being, after you’ve identified yourself as NW, that explains to the potential suspect, what you’re about and why you need, or should have some information about him. Because you’re trying to protect everyone, including him, if he’s not a criminal but actually has a right to be going the way that he’s going. Zimmerman never finds this out until after he’s killed an innocent kid, who was merely trying to walk home.

     So that’s some very suspicious activity on Zimmerman’s part. Since he’s acting like a person with criminal intent himself. Perhaps there should have been a sign at the gate: “Beware of George Zimmerman, Captain of the Neighborhood Watch”, with his picture. So people would know who it was, that was following them and calling the police from the safety of his car.

     But wait! It doesn’t end there! We know that Zimmerman had yet another chance to identify himself to the innocent stranger he was putting in fear!
     Trayvon asked “Why are you following me?” A question that a person with only the intentions of keeping the neighborhood safe and/or free of criminal activity, should have answered: “I’m the neighborhood watch captain!”
     That would have prevented Trayvon from fearing for his life, that some ill intended criminal was looking to do something illegal to him.

     Zimmerman was told, many times not to follow people, and not to carry arms when and if he did! So, if he really intended not to cause or provoke a fight, that he could use as an excuse to kill, then he really should have identified himself, because he was the only one guilty of breaking the rules!

     • Lonnie – thank you again for the comments!

       I have no idea why Zimmerman would have thought a person hiding from rain under an awning was suspicious if the two didn’t cross points before the 911 call. Remember, he’s still AT the clubhouse – per Zimmerman – until around :55 of the 911 call.

       • If he saw TM under the awning, he’d have to have been waiting for some time, for TM to come out and start walking. However, if he only spots TM walking past the clubhouse, then he can make it all sound spontaneous.
         As in no patrolling. Not being on patrol answers the question as to why he had a firearm with him. A no-no if he’s on patrol.

         I get the general impression that GZ isn’t a very good liar. He thinks things up to answer questions, then forgets the made up answers, and reverts to revealing what actually happened, because he can’t blot out what’s already in his head. He can’t manage the real vs the imagined.

         Like when he say TM was on top of him, and that it was then they wrestled for his gun, he drew it and shot TM. Then he finishes up with “He said… twice, then turned around and fell down.” Obviously a person straddling you on the ground, can’t “turn around and fall down”.

         If he’s straddling you, he falls on his side, then when you climb out from under him, if he’s dead, he can’t straighten his legs, so he lays there with his legs curled and on his side. In that position, unmoving, you can’t pretend you don’t know he’s either not awake or alive. In fact, with a hollow point round in his chest at close range, even an idiot would know he’s dead.

         The SP is going to have a field day with GZ on the stand.
         The jury will probably bring back 1st degree just for stupidity.

     • Lonnie, I agree. If he had any sense of responsibility or respect for his role as NW he would have identified himself first, but he didn’t. Martin’s initial encounter with Zimmerman was not a surprise attack by suddenly and unsuspectingly coming up behind him and jumping on his back, as some would have us believe. They had a frontal altercation first several yards south of that T entrance and that is where the first words as spoken by Trayvon according to his friend, “Why are you following me?” took place. What GZ claims as happened as well as things he has said such as TM telling him after being shot, “You got it, or you got me” sounds ridiculous, let alone contradictory, IMO.

       • Sorry for the spelling errors. I hit the reply button before I proof read.

         • I don’t edit comments normally – if at all – but will take care of yours since you made a note here. 🙂

           • I appreciate that. smile.

     • You just made me think of something. if Trayvon Martin’s girlfriend’s account of the conversation is correct OR if George Zimmerman’s father’s and friend’s relaying of the accounts George Zimmerman purportedly gave which are:

       (1) why are you following me (Trayvon’s girlfriend’s account)
       OR
       (2) do you have a problem homie (Zimmerman-backer’s account)

       The appropriate response from Zimmerman WOULD have been “I’m the neighborhood watch caption and I just want to make sure you’re ok and safe.”

       Apparently, that is not what happened and this is probably the pivotal point of the escalation.

       • EXCELLENT point!

237. Sorry if the above is a bit “run on”, but it comes from a fear we comment posters have of the dreaded character counters we see on most blogs.

     • Run on as long as you’d like — especially if the content is interesting.

       • I couldn’t find a reply button after you replied to me above. Thanks for the links and the view of Taaffe’s address. It is located at a cut through that Trayvon may have entered if he was unable to get back through the main entrance (after they were locked at 7pm as was mentioned on another blog) when he returned from the 711 store.

         • Yes, indeed…it is. Google street view pics to come. Sorry about the reply thing – I think only a certain amount of them are allowed per comment by wordpress? Meh…

238. A few excerpts from a page I found about Frank Taaffe:
     http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-frank-taaffe.php

     Taaffe came to know Zimmerman intimately while acting as a watch block captain under George, who was captain of the neighborhood watch. Taaffe claims he saw the real Zimmerman — and that he is not a racist.

     leaders of the national USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch Program specified that proper training is central to ensuring a program’s safety.

     “Neighborhood Watch — the way we teach it, and the way it has always been — is based on the premise that we don’t carry weapons, nor do we intervene in any incidences,” Chris Tutko, Director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs’ Association, told theGrio, “because what that does is escalate a situation and makes a volunteer another victim.”

     Or in Trayvon Martin’s case, makes a visitor into a martyr for the causes of better gun control and an end to “Stand Your Ground” laws.

     When asked whether he or Zimmerman received any training as neighborhood watchmen, Taaffe said explicitly, “No.”

     http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-frank-taaffe.php?page=2

     It is profoundly clear that Zimmerman’s level of “common sense” was tragically deficient as a guide. Despite this, Taaffe clung to his belief that Trayvon Martin seemed out of place on the night he was shot, due to the rash of previous crimes and the race of the people who had perpetrated them.
     ======================================
     It’s a two pager so there are two links.

     He says he’s “intimately” connected to GZ, and praises him for the NW, but he doesn’t know about the training and thinks there is none to be had.
     I guess GZ nor the police ever told him about the 14 hour course they gave GZ. In fact, even the SPD seems to be unaware of their own course! This, despite the fact that they have long had a website about it, offered that same 14 hour course, and kept a document attesting to the fact that GZ took it.

     Of course, it’s an embarrassment now, so it’s hardly a wonder they’re all trying their best to forget it.

     • This 14 hour course, coupled with his criminal law course, is not going to add up to a very good view of how he handled himself that night.
       You can bet the SP is going to use this, and you can bet we’re going to get a welter of denials.

239. Oh, before I forget let me post this factoid: From my readings about NW, I learned that NWC’s are supposed to set up “trees” of notification. These are people who will be called upon to assist with the watching, as in “look out your window and keep an eye on that guy for me” and other things of that type.

     People on these trees are not tasked with patrolling, all they have to do to get on the tree, is express a desire or willingness to be notified and/or to notify the watchers when something seems amiss. Perhaps that’s what Taaffe misunderstood, he probably signed on to be on the tree, and thought he was a patrolling watcher instead.

     The SPD’s NW 14 hour course had to come from somewhere, and it had to have some content, otherwise why 14 hours? Just sitting and twiddling the thumbs? Hardly, the police task a community relations officer to set up an NW. That officer then ferrets out (the web?) the info he’ll need. Even if he doesn’t register with the national sheriffs who run the program, he probably grabbed their material. Lack of registration is probably due to the fact that no one volunteered until Zimmerman came along. By then registration was all but forgotten.

     Which says scads about Zimmerman’s legal skills, eh? In a court of law, little things like registration with a group like the National Sheriff’s org, can go a long way and mean quite a lot. Yet GZ is totally incurious about NW, beyond taking the 14 hour course. Take the course, buy a gun, get a concealed carry permit and pow-shazzam, you’re Captain George defender of the weak!

     Great job George, now, whenever someone hears “neighborhood watcher”, they’re going to shrink back in fear!

240. Hang on, the GATES ARE LOCKED?

     At 7?

     And the police just drive over them at 7.18???

     Or every squad car carries keys to every gated community in the city? who let them in?

     Even if they had keys.. stop, get out, unlock, pull gates back… that is a minute in itself. So they must have been AT the gates when the shot was fired…. and didn’t hear it? and/or Z with the gun in his hand didn’t hear the sirens right on top of him?

     Or maybe that’s why it was urgent, to stop M telling his version?

     Johns “shit shit shit” doesn’t sound like an “OMG, that’s dreadful” kind of “shit shit shit”. More like a “what’s the damned idiot gone and done” kind.

     • Ofcr T. Smith notifies dispatcher that he is at the gated community (mail boxes?) at 7:17:11.

       As he arrives, he learns about gunshots and is asked to go to 1231 TTL. He goes there. I believe this is white t-shirts address. She says that the officer shouldn’t be at the front door but rather behind her house as she is asked to help dispatcher direct the Officer.

       They then decide Ofcr T. Smith has to go to 2821 RVC. This is what he does driving all the way south toward the back entrance. It is only once he drives by the south end of the back path that he understands the layout, seeing the two rows of buildings and the path in between.

       At this point GZ & possibly M. Flashlight must know Police is near as I expect police lights to be on.

       At 7:19:07, M.Flashlight takes at picture of GZ’s head.

       Ofcr T. Smith moves on and parks his vehicle at 2821 RVC as indicated. He exits his vehicle and starts canvassing the area.
       Following the Teacher’s call and assuming she called between 7:17:00 and 7:17:30 (right around the time of the gunshot as she says), Ofc T. Smith finally arrives on the crime scene between 7:19:20 and 7:19:50. Seconds later the dispatcher tells the teacher that the ofc has someone at gunpoint.

       Following the initial police report, there is no M. Flashlight with GZ at that time.
       Listening to the teacher’s call, there is no indication that M. Flashlight left before the Ofc arrived.

       Finally, at 7:20:21 the wire created for GZ’s call is closed I guess because the LEO found the complainer.

       Basically, it took Ofc T. Smith about 2.5 minutes to find GZ from the mailboxes. It was obviously too late for TM anyhow. It was enough time for Flashlight to go to GZ, take pictures and apparently disappear from the scene. With the police car lights on, both GZ & Flashlight possibly knew the Police whereabouts.

241. NMLE,

     I really like your experiment concerning the t-shirt color. However, I find the t-shirt you used to be darker than Zimmerman’s. It might be the photograph of your t-shirt that looks darker on my screen, or the image of GZ at the SPD office.

     I’m not sure what image of GZ you used. The ones I find the best are when he enters a small office. Here is a link.

     

     • Yeah – this non HD pic was taken with an iPhone under GE Reveal lightbulbs. It’s light blue I’d say. In the dark of the night, I’d call in greenish/blueish.

     • T-shirts of any color can appear white if the lighting is bright enough. Supposedly, Zimmerman had a flashlight on his gun that could be bright enough to cause a blinding type of deterrent/scare. Maybe this caused the light green/light blue tee under the red jacket to appear as a white tee. It’s doubtful it caused a dark gray hoodie to appear as a white tee.

       • For Zimmerman’s shirt to apparently have no/little blood on it, the dark jacket must have been zipped up well.

       • Wait, GZ had a flashlight? Where did this info come from?

         If that’s true, the flashlight guy could just be GZ with his flashlight gun.

         • I chuckled. 🙂

242. Does anyone know if it’s possible to use GZ previous 911 calls as evidence of his intent to confront/kill Martin? I’m asking because I just read the article on msnbc here at

     http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/25/11396690-george-zimmerman-prelude-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin?lite

     This article explains how 3 weeks before Martin’s death, GZ called 911 because he claimed he saw a young black male looking through a window. He said on the tape that he personally didn’t want to confront the person (my guess is he didn’t want to get out of the car because he didn’t have his gun). Now a couple days later, this same black male was detained for breaking in a house in their subdivision. This is the perfect prelude to Feb 26th when George says that “these a$$h0les always get away” (if he would have caught the other black guy 2 weeks ago, the other house would have been saved). The only difference is that on Feb 26th, George had his gun and he was going to make sure that this one didn’t get away.

     • I think you nailed GZs frame of mind perfectly!

243. I’ve changed my original map to include a few new speculations. Can’t says facts as nothing fresh is being said right now. I try to show the 4 possible ways they met, and the 2 possible ways they chased.

     

     Happy for anyone to pick holes in it. I’ve not marked it for timings.

     • Cool – thanks. Nice theories! I’ll review more thoroughly in a few.

     • I do believe Zimhmerman lied on some of the finer points on his 9-1-1 call. I don’t think Trayvon Martin would have run through the grassy cut through between the sides of buildings to head away from his home if that’s what the green marks indicate.

       • No key was found on him. So, he has to knock and wait for younger “brother” to let him in. Or get a key from under a plant pot. Or it’s sliding door that is harder to “slam” on someone than a hinged one. Or he’d left the FRONT door unlatched t get back through.

         Lots of reasons to not go to the back of his house. Not the least, while he’s trying to get in, his back is exposed to creepy stalker who might still be around close.

         Last he saw, Z was following him ALSO southwards. Stopping long enough to open the door is giving him time to catch up. So turning north is getting away, not knowing Z fairly soon turned around, too.

         • Exactly right!

           Like everyone else, I become sad (and get sweaty palms) thinking about Trayvon’s last 5 minutes. Even death aside – which is impossible – but, how terrifying to be hunted like that.

244. George Zimmerman did not seem to know where he was on the 9-1-1 call. He couldn’t instruct the officers to go straight in to follow the street past the curve and he said he couldn’t give them an address. Had he been standing at the cut-through near the sidewalk, he could have used his flashlight to see the address on the first house closest to the cut-through or seen the address without the aid of the flashlight. He was obviously neither where he claimed to be or he was lying or he was on something or he is retarded.

     • If my map is correct, the back of the units to the north of his parked vehicle wouldn’t have street addresses. The unit(s) to the southeast would and so would the unit(s) to the southwest but maybe those couldn’t be seen in the dark, rainy night without headlights.

       • The fact is ,if he was the appointed Neighbourhood Watch and had lived in that townhouse for 2 years shouldn’t he have known the addresses and know how to describe his whereabouts to the dispatcher.

       • I think you are correct, but the other set of townhouses — the ones visible in the “tarp” pics are houses facing frontal to twin trees and they have house numbers on them. Parked or walking, Zimmerman should have seen where he was by pointing a flashlight at the homes. If we’re correct that he didn’t take a reasonable person’s actions which would be to use the flashlights he had on his person to give the police good info (addresses) to respond to, there are some possibilities as to why he didn’t/couldn’t. He’s either:

         (1) not actively interested in giving an address to the police
         (2) lying to obfuscate his known whereabouts/address
         (3) incapable of giving an address (high, drunk, focused only on stalking or lacking in the mental capabilities department)
         (4) moved from where he first called 9-1-1 dispatch — perhaps beside homes where there are no street signs or house numbers like the grassy openings between townhomes where there is no sidewalk

         Also re the headlights, Zimmerman was armed also with flashlights, so headlights and vehicle headlight positioning may not be important on the address portion.

         I would find headlights important if Zimmerman drove to a new position after his police call, though.

     • Perhaps he could have said where HE was. But what they asked was “what address are you parked outside of?” which he could NOT answer because he was not with the vehicle. He replies “I don’t know. It’s a cut through. so I don’t know the address”.

       Dispatcher suggests meeting at the mailboxes, he says ok, oh, “actually…. could you have them call and I’ll tell them where I’m at”.

       That is a man on the move. He can’t go back to the mailboxes, cos he has to go find TM.

       • That makes a lot of sense. He doesn’t know where his truck is parked because it’s far behind.

       • Yes! Those last words to the dispatcher is the clincher. He was on the move trying to locate TM knowing the police would arrive any moment.

     • Or he was drunk. I mean, he’s been in that gated neighborhood for 2.5 years. There are only 3 streets.. He can’t even give the name of the one that goes by the mail boxes and cuts through the neighborhood. He can’t give proper instructions to the police officer from the north entrance to his truck. He chases TM as soon as he sees him running while in a previous case he didn’t as a NW would. His mind was not clear that night.

       • Specifically with directions. Absolutely horrible. And, he’s got a button on? Come on.

       • Sadly, he could have been on something but will we ever know? I thought it was stated that police did no toxic screening on him but they did on Trayvon, a deceased 17 year old unarmed young man. Crazy police thinking.

       • Deborah D, It too floored me the way SPD were thinking. Giving a drug and alcohol test in any homicide crime is state law standard procedure. Within hours of his self defense statements and before carrying out a full investigation they let him go. .This Stand Your Ground law is completely screwed up, IMO.

245. Thinking about that whole path business. I’m starting to think the guy who did the Youtube.where I got the Yellow line from for my map………….he might be the closest.

     Because if TM goes on the path (my Green arrows) between buildings, and does not want to go to the back door, for whatever reason……………. why go all the way north again? every 4 or 5 homes, there is a gap. He could have gone through the next one up, through to to the next street which his front door is on.

     If he’s on the Yellow path (alongside the pond) then north is really his only way back. He does have to make a dash in the open across the top of Twin Trees. There Z, puffing back towards his car, spots him, takes the cut through (my blue arrow) into the back path area, to cut him off near the T.

     • Because if TM goes on the path (my Green arrows) between buildings, and does not want to go to the back door, for whatever reason……………. why go all the way north again? every 4 or 5 homes, there is a gap. He could have gone through the next one up, through to to the next street which his front door is on. Have it occured to you that Trayvon went back north to confront Zimmerman, to ask why was Zimmeman following him?

246. Great thought has been put into your investigation, and it obviously shows that your research has been blinded by your predisposition to assume that Z is guilty and went into this with the believe that he is a hateful man and that his only purpose he had for going out this night was to kill a young black man. Take a step back, put yourself in his position and base your investigation on facts and not distortions created to prove his guilt.
     Here is a good article that shows that Z is really a nice guy that got thrust into a bad situation, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135271/Trayvon-Martin-shooting-George-Zimmermans-role-support-protection-community-ravaged-burglaries-vandalism-just-shooting.html.

     He will not be convicted on 2nd degree murder, and they will not be able to go after him for manslaughter due to the double jeopardy laws.

     • Zimmerman didn’t wake up hoping to kill a black teen — but, that was the end result. So, now he’ll pay for his mistake.

       Zimmerman will only get manslaughter if the prosecutor wants a deal. She won’t want a deal. She’ll want to go after Zimmerman. HARD.

       • Based on her affidavit she isn’t going to get a conviction at all. I have never read or seen such from a prosecution charging 2nd degree murder, it’s a joke to say the least.

         • I don’t take in much conservative TV or radio – what’s wrong with the affidavit now?

       • The affidavit is a joke. First she doesn’t show where Zimmerman committed any crimes.
         Profiling; How did Zimmerman profiled, what information is stated in the affidavit to support her charge of profiling. Was it something Zimmerman said in sworn a statement, if so who did he make that statement to or was it something that was recorded on the 911 call.
         Racial Profiling: “Any police-initiated action that relies on the race, ethnicity, or national origin rather than the behavior of an individual or information that leads the police to a particular individual who has been identified as being, or having been, engaged in criminal activity. Zimmerman stated to the police that Trayvon was suspicious because of the way he was acting, his behavior like he was on drugs of something. Zimmerman never stated that he was supsicious of Trayvon because he was black and wore a hoodie. It was raining it was dark, Trayvon was hanging around the clubhouse which was closed, he was ducking in and out of the raining, we don’t know what else Trayvon make have been doing, but Zimmerman alluded to his behavior not the fact that he was black and had on a hoodie. Profiling is out.
         Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher when he said, “we do not need you to do that”. There is no proof that Zimmerman disregarded the dispatcher. Zimmerman remained on the phone with the dispatcher for at least 90 seconds, after he told Zimmerman we don’t need you to do that. Therefore there was no reason for the dispatcher to assume that Zimmerman continued to follow especially since Zimmerman’s voice had returned to normal and there was no more wind interference in the phone. Zimmerman stated that once he got off of the phone he heard back to his truck. When the prosecution was asked if they had any evidence to contradict Zimmerman’s claim that he was headed back to his truck, when he as attacked he said no.
         All Trayvon wanted to do was get home. What proof do they have that all he wanted to do was get home. Did Trayvon tell the girlfriend that, and at what point during the conversation did he tell her all he wanted to do was
         get home. Trayvon had plenty of time to go home while Zimmerman was still on the phone with the dispatcher, so why didn’t he go home?
         Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down and a fight ensued.
         What evidence to show that he continued to follow. None
         Who started the fight? They don’t know
         Who was yelling for help on the 911. Trayvon’s dad said that it wasn’t Trayvon’s voice, but his mother says that it is his voice. Zimmerman dad says that it is his son’s voice on the tape. What experts proof was documented in the affidavit to whose voice it was? There was none documented. Even if it was Trayvon’s voice does that prove that in the end Trayvon wasn’t the aggressor. No it doesn’t. ISay Trayvon sucker punches Trayvon and they began to fight at some point they are fighting over the gun, Zimmerman has the butt of the gun and Trayvon is holding the barrel and they struggling and neither one of them is willing to turn the gun a loose because neither knows the mind of the other. It is raining the gun is slippery, at some point Trayvon feels that he is losing his grip on the gun, so he starts screaming for help. During this same time Zimmerman could have been screaming for help because he thinks that Trayvon is going to get the gun from him. The experts make can prove that it is Trayvon’s voice on the tape but that cannot prove that Zimmerman were not screaming for help.
         The girlfriend, who only after been hunted down finally gave her account of what Trayvon told her, which is hearsay to say the least. The problem it is almost a month after the incident before she tells what happened. She didn’t bother to tell anybody the night that he was supposed to have heard all of this. Even when she heard that Trayvon had been killed she still didn’t bother to tell her own mother what she had heard that night. She made one tweet regarding Trayvon death that said, “R.I.P. my best friend I gonna miss you. The day of his wake and funeral it is said that the girlfriend had to admitted to the hospital, but her tweets shows that she was out to the movies with her mother, at the mall shopping and getting her hair done. Tweets about how bored she was, and the TV shows she was watching, but not once tweet regarding Trayvon. So they are relying on a 16 year old’s statement who didn’t care enough to tell anyone what she had heard on that night.

     • Isn’t this what the prosecution does is try to find holes in someones words and actions as well as take their past record into account? There is no predisposition here only a discussion on why George Zimmerman is not as innocent as he claims he is. Why take anyone’s word at face value because they say they acted in self defense, just because they say so? Put yourself in Trayvon Martins shoes.

       • You say there is no predisposition, and then you say this a discussion on why GZ is not as innocent as he claims. Is that not predisposition? You are not trying to discover the facts, you are trying to prove how GZ is a liar. Anyone who starts with the conclusion already assumed is always going to find ways to distort things to prove the conclusion they have already decided on.

         This post is full of wording that is intended to create a bad opinion of GZ, in the first couple of paragraphs there is already inflammatory comments to make the reader think GZ is an idiot, “towards Zimmerman who phoned 911 when he noticed Trayvon again (because all suspicious looking black teens return to their crime scenes, right?).”

         If your point is truly to present the facts, why is this post laced all the way through with derogatory comments about GZ.

         Ultimately this is a tragedy that has to do with one thing, the failure of society to properly raise their children to respect others property and persons.

         • I’m sorry you feel this way. Zimmerman returns to his vehicle as he should have and all is well.

           • in response to Not impressed:

             “You say there is no predisposition, and then you say this a discussion on why GZ is not as innocent as he claims. Is that not predisposition? You are not trying to discover the facts, you are trying to prove how GZ is a liar. Anyone who starts with the conclusion already assumed is always […]”

             We are not “trying to prove GZ guilty”, we are working with “the assumption that he is”. We constantly remind each other that we don’t have all the facts, therefore many of our speculations, may be quite dramatically flawed.

             Each speculation assumes various facts that have been provided, and adds speculation about what they could mean in the context of the overall case. We expect these speculations to prove either true or false at the trial! But, for the purposes of understanding the meaning of the information given, we assume what we think the evidence will show, and try to explain why we think so.

             If you like, you can build your own speculations on the assumption that Zimmerman is innocent! But, I kind of think that there’s way more evidence, that get in the way of GZ’s innocence than get in the way of his guilt. Because a child is dead, who should not have died, if GZ had abided by the rules he was given.

             GZ observed no emergency, no crime and nothing that should have caused him to approach or follow TM. If TM looked suspicious enough to be dangerous to the community, in just walking home from the store, then he should never be let out of the house on his own. Perhaps the 711 should not have let him into the store, since he was obviously intent on either holding them up or stealing. GZ doesn’t realize that if he’s right, TM should have been shot to death long before now, since he’s always a suspicious person wherever he goes and no matter what he is doing.

             Mainly, I am trying to understand what possible reason GZ has, for refusing to identify himself, when he has been challenged because of his actions! Actions which even he has not told the police he’s continuing to engage in.

             After the police tell him not to follow, he doesn’t say: “I’m going to continue to follow him”, he says: “Okay!”, which means he agrees! He doesn’t tell the police “I’m armed”! He does tell them that the suspect knows he’s being followed! And even though he knows he’s not supposed to be doing that, because it spooks people out, when challenged he refuses to explain his actions, which provoke a defensive response. He’s not wearing a uniform, no markings, no patches, and nothing to give any clue that he’s not someone with criminal intent.

             Would you countenance being followed home by a stranger who refused to answer to you, what they were doing? But, whose demeanor was insulting and threatening? GZ just knew that TM was a criminal who he wasn’t going to let get away! Because of that view TM is dead, for doing nothing but trying to walk home!

             Are you trying to say that black people should be followed, and shot if they request identification of their followers?

       • To Not Impressed.

         A predisposition to be inclined in favor of something/someone or to take a biased view? If what the evidence has already shown from GZ’s words and actions as well as the Stanford police departments lack of a thorough investigation, that I question,is being predisposed, then so be it.
         Please read your above comment to see you have already done such by making yourself the defense of Zimmermans innocence based upon his words alone. Now what would a prosecutor in a court of law do. Wouldn’t he try to find any flaws, contradictions, or holes in the case? A prosecution will use all evidence and break that down to prove there is reasonable guilt on the part of the person accused of a crime . Evidence is being gathered from both sides and it will be determined by that if there will be a trial or not.

       • @@ Not Impressed

         you say “Ultimately this is a tragedy that has to do with one thing, the failure of society to properly raise their children to respect others property and persons.”…whaaa??

         What disrespect of others’ property is involved in this case? Nobody was trespassing, stealing or vandalising anything.

         Disrespect of other persons??
         One participant was walking from a shop to where he was staying, while talking on the phone.
         Another participant found this suspicious enough to follow that person and call the police about him.
         A fight developed because of this.

         One participant was SHOT DEAD.

         Yes, you are right. Zimmerman’s parents should have raised him to respect other persons’ right to free movement and LIFE.

       • @Not impressed: Are you serious? Your lack of value of human life and individual responsibility (Zimmerman’s for one) may be more of an issue. The perfect alibi for Zimmerman would have been to agree to wait at the mailboxes. Clearly, he already admitted on tape that he had no intention of going there until they called him. That he says that he had contrary to his own words decided to head back to his vehicle sounds contrived to say the least. There is nothing wrong with us meeting conflict with inquiry. It certainly took the SPD long enough to do so.

       • gmac im sure you already had an opinion before the bond hearing. Zimmerman only looked good to people who were already siding in his favour and i think you’ll find the only people who think him asking his devoted followers to send money for his living expenses and defence fund are the people who are backing him 100 per cent regardless of any evidence to the contrary. He actively pursued someone for no reason, and please dont even start with the usual propaganda of him having every right because trayvon was acting suspicious because he was walking around in the rain…there is no justifing his actions on that night even before any altercation took place. He only needed to call it in, even if he saw martin climbing out of someones window, just call it in…but as we already now know last time he did that the criminal got away….which gives even stronger meaning to his gripe “these assholes, they always get away”. Clearly this time he was ready to take it further and he did. The bond hearing made it clear that the prosecution has evidence none of us have heard, and witnesses that we don’t know about, so you can’t claim they don’t have a case, that’s just wishful thinking on your behalf. It will get really interesting though and hopefully whatever happened will finally come to light.

       • NLME sorry i was replying to gmac below but hit the wrong reply….oops i’m technically dysfuctional!!

247. Did the gz camp get caught lying again? Said his family had no money but he he made 200k off his website. Did he hide that to get a lower bond cause im pretty sure it all didnt get donated after the bond hearing. This shows to me atleast that gz is a sneaky untruthful an lie for his benefit hince apologyzing on national tv at his bond hear and lieing about he didnt know tm age thought he was younger than him. Just my opinion im stating he just seems shady to me.

     • Zimmerman is shady as hell (as noted on 3/31 in the blog posting before most of this recent stuff came out)!

       I’m going from memory only but if you rewatch the bond hearing, the lawyers asked if Zimmerman’s site has resulted in donations. The response from the Zimmerman camp was something like, “We’re not aware of it receiving any donations.” This is when George could have come clean about the donations but — of course — didn’t.

       I thought his camp not knowing whether there were donations (or not) to the site was weird. The website being “launched” made CNN.com’s headline story but NOBODY donated?

       • Those donors must feel like fools, giving money to a man who is clearly an outright liar.

         • They have no shame. The lies don’t matter. It’s all about gun rights and Stand Your Ground.

           • Yeah, and some people probably thought they’d get bragging rights from it, and they’d have a receipt to prove it, that they donated to GZ’s defense fund.
             Only now that GZ is a demonstrable liar, that can’t portend good for the results of any trial. Since there’s no obvious or innocent way that his own testimony might incriminate him, he can’t easily get out of testifying, without casting terrible suspicions on himself. After all, only he and TM were there, and TM can’t talk about it. Only GZ can make his points, if he has any!

             The SP must find a way to impress the jury that, any one of them might be followed. Their verdict will tell us all, what rights we all have in such a situation!

       • I don’t think the website amounted to much before the bail hearing. Many people like myself followed that hearing and realized that the state does not have a case. Honestly do you think they would disclose that if the records showed it was sent before the bail hearing?

248. I forwarded the Frank Taaffe info to AC 360. I think that is very interesting.

     Doesn’t take too much imagination to think Frank would call GZ after seeing Trayvon walk by.

     • I don’t watch his show (or much TV) but assume AC 360 has a viewer inbox or something equivalent – thanks!

       • I wouldn’t forward that to anyone but the DA.

     • Frank Taafe also was a wife abuser. This link I also forwarded to AC 360 and Nancy Grace. He came off as arrogant the last few interviews, talking over people. He seemed to be steaming, Then I saw this. I believe we can say he as well as Zimmerman have anger issues

       • You could see Zimmerman’s anger issues on the stand during the bond hearing. Specifically, when Zimmerman corrects the prosecuting lawyer about who his weird message was directed to. Should be fun watching him take the stand during the trial.

         • Sort of makes you wonder what GZ’s demeanor was exactly, when TM asked him “Why are you following me?” We already know that GZ did not respond by identifying himself, as he should have. He says he responded with another challenge, “What are you doing here?”, something he had absolutely no right to know!

           Try doing that, following strangers around until they challenge you, then screw up your face and ask them “What are you doing here?” I’m pretty sure you’re going to have quite a few medical problems to deal with most times.

           Of course, if TM had responded “I’m going home, why are you following me?” GZ would never repeat that!

249. A tip-off from Taafe I’d believe, considering his interest and living in plain view of TM’s likeliest route into the complex.

     A tip from 711 makes no sense. It’s a mile or so from the estate. Do they call every estate NW in the area if they get a young black customer they’ve not seen before????? I really don’t think so.

     Let’s remember even Z didn’t know TM lived there, how would the 711 clerk know? And if he DID know he lived there, why warn anyone he’s on the way home? Say, even if TM had mentioned in conversation that he is staying there…… no reason to tip off NW…. is a would-be robber going to tell strangers he lives somewhere he doesn’t, immediately before going there to do a robbery?

     Speculations about anyone outside tipping off start to go into conspiracy theory territory, IMHO.

     Ditto if someone had seen TM walking out, why even suspect he might also walk back in? and call 711 to let us know in case he goes in there??? why would they think he’s going to 711? the whole idea makes no sense.

     Either Z was truly going to Target, up along Retreat View, and accidentally noticed TM entering between the buildings, OR (increasingly more likely) Taafe who lives in that building noticed him approach and tipped off Z. Maybe perhaps someone else in those buildings. These would be reasonable calls that make sense.

     Z following TM from that north-west corner is the only direction that ties in with his being able to observe the “suspicious” behavior, PLUS ends up with them in the positions that lets Z have a view of TM running and disappearing.

     • Yeah, I’m not necessarily sure if anybody tipped Zimmerman off. But, I’d like to see phone records — especially Zimmerman’s and the witnesses’. I’d also like to know if their Neighborhood Watch used CB radios, walkie-talkies, etc. and which neighbors had them since (I believe) those communications can’t be traced.

       Keep in mind – the community is right next to a school.

       

       So, I imagine unidentified teens in the area isn’t out of the ordinary. And, I just thought about this last night – Who would try to break into a house at 7:00 pm on a Sunday during a storm? This isn’t Hollywood, Zimmerman.

       • I never much thought about the ideal time for breaking in. But…

         Apart for the getting wet aspect, it’s not such a bad time at all. No lights on = nobody home (a lot later they could be home but asleep). Storm reduces chances of others walking about to see you. Or harder for them to see from car (wipers, fogged up etc). If they DO see you, won’t think you’re there for break-in ( see ^^^^) (unless Z is around). Loud wind/rain noises cover your footsteps and break-in sounds.

         btw I wouldn’t live in a place like this if you paid me to. Not even fully fenced, but a GATE? a gate locked at 7 pm? how do my visitors get in? or my pizza delivery? One or two security cameras at the gate, but NO street lighting? no pathway lighting? I thought gated was meant to be safer. It’s a desolate dangerous spooky trap.

         • Most* people are around Sunday night getting ready for their school/work week. So, yes, I’m basically saying break ins don’t happen during the show 60 Minutes. And, a robber creeping through a neighborhood just after dark during a storm mostly happens in Hollywood.

           The services/friends referenced have a universal way to get into the community.

           * Assumed

           • I’d kinda think that burglars would keep off the main paths. They’d probably slink between buildings and keep to the shadows, and gravitate towards the houses with no lights on. One of my tricks that has proven effective, is to leave a curtain partially opened and have the tv throwing light on the window.
             The tv’s flicker sort of says there’s somebody there watching tv. Most burglars will assume the homeowner/occupant is armed. Even if not, most burglars don’t want witnesses and they don’t plan on committing murder, so they move on.

       • I still don’t know how the police got in through that locked gate, either. Is there an intercom there? did someone buzz them in? would they buzz ME in if I said “police”, without checking? (the people in my apartment block buzz people in all the time without knowing them).

         • Yeah – the Police, EMTs, etc. have full access to any gated community.

           • That info probably doesn’t exist, otherwise it would have been reported in the police reports, they’d need the name of the security person who opened the gate for them, as well as to question him/her as to what they’d seen. Even at this late date they’d have done that. My experience is that many rules “on the books” go by the boards, because they’re just to inconvenient to enforce.

             For example, when would GZ notify for the gate to be opened for his trip to the store? Is there a button to push at the front gate? Besides that’s the easiest part of the police report: “I proceeded to the gate at that address, it was closed, I notified the gatekeeper to be let in”. Police love to include “filler” in their reports as much as possible, since it makes the report look fastidious and detailed. They’d even go back and get his/her name and question them, since it’s the easiest part of their duties. I see none of that here, so it’s unlikely things happened that way.

       • yep and especially knowing someone was following him, i think georges job was done. George wasn’t being subtle by any stretch of the imagination. Trayvon knew he was being watched and followed. George knew trayvon was aware of him watching. So stay in your damn car because even if the kid was up to no good he’s not going to break into someones house now. Even if zimmerman really did think the kid was a potential thief, he knows your there, he knows you’ve had a good look at him, he knows you’ve been watching, he’s not going to commit a crime now is he, so whats the urgency to chase after him, especially with the police not far away…i really with the cops had stayed on the line for those couple of minutes longer until the police arrived…the cops were virtually at the gate when trayvon got shot..

       • I sincerely doubt they were so well organized that they’d even have money for CB’s. Remember, no one wanted to be a NW, which is why the SPD put Z in charge. The others probably signed on to be on the “call tree”, but instead thought they were signing on for patrols. Taaffee says he went out on patrols, but he hadn’t signed on for such duty. Zimmerman didn’t tell his intimately close friend Frank, about the 14 hour SPD course. None of them ever bothered to look at what the rules of patrol were, and Z wasn’t about to tell them what he’d learned or knew.

         So, it will be very interesting to hear what Z and the SPD’s story is about NW training material, the course, and what Z’s duties as captain were supposed to be. Since the SPD is in a very tricky position now. If they don’t defend their operation of the NW, then they can be accused of setting a vigilante group loose on Twin Lakes. After all, they were the one’s who asked for people to mount this NW. They provided a leader for it, and they provided him with a 14 hour course. Why would they do so, if they had not been made aware of the vigilante and liability issues?

         The National Sheriff’s Assoc., knows of these issues and explains them. Thus they know that, without proper care, these NW’s can devolve into some dangerous configurations.

     • The following of TM cannot be easily ruled out, because we have cell phones with photo capabilities. Because anyone who viewed TM leaving, could have snapped a photo of him at anytime, even the day before, or the time before when he stayed there. Anyone of these people could have had a friend who works at the store, or even had a friend who was headed for that store, or was there in the store.

       The picture needed could be obtained at anytime and sent in time to have someone look out for him at the store. If they succeeded they could send a photo back for confirmation. This is 2012, not 1980, when this kind of stuff was a futuristic dream. Today it’s a reality. We have people on the subways taking pictures of criminal activity and sending it to police, in time for them to apprehend the criminal suspect.

       So, we must update our consideration of the possibilities to match the times we live in, with the resources that are widely available. Heck, pictures of people can be sent worldwide with a couple of key strokes from a cell phone anywhere.

       Not that I’m saying it did happen, but it’s a possibility that can’t be so easily eliminated, at least not with the information we have now. But, if it was done, then I think that TM, is more likely tracked earlier than simply coming in the cut through or the gate, because GZ needs time to get going. If all the time he has, is from when TM left shelter, either at the cut through or the gate, then he has only some 20 to 30 seconds to get there. I think he needs more time than that.

       Unless it really is coincidence that both GZ and TM arrive in one anothers view at some point. It’s just that the window of time, for this to happen, and for GZ and TM to become almost instantly aware of one another, is quite strange.

250. This is an interesting link to a movie for whoever want to better picture who it looks like to be in the Retreat at Twin Lake gated community.

     • Nice find. Thank you for sharing.

251. New Zimmerman lie! His family claims to be poor and Zimmerman himself claims indigency although the website collected more than 200K. The bail was originally expected to be $1M which would have required a 100K bond for release. The Martin family’s attorney probed the Zimmerman’s on the amount of money received via the website and the Zimmerman family claimed not know if there was money and didn’t have access to it As it’s currently reported, the Zimmerman family used at least $5K of the money for freeing Zimmerman and another $49K of the money for living expenses. Zimmerman has spent a total of $54K of the money since the website went up less than 3 weeks ago. Are we to believe they spent this $54K after the bond hearing since they claim not to have had access to it prior to the bond hearing?
     ,
     $54K spent in 3 weeks or less?! $54K spent in 3 days?! Either way it’s atrotious indulgence as they ask for reduced bond on claims they can’t pay.

     On another note, how could Zimmerman’s attorney not have been aware of the funds via the website if it was asked about at the bond hearing? Also, wasn’t Omara (Zimmerman’s attorney) asked point blank about the website BEFORE the bond hearing in one of his news interviews? I seem to remember it being reported in the news and a reptorter asked him about the website and Omara replied that it was fine.

252. 1min into that news report, the reporter shows exactly where the scuffle & occurred & where TM’s body was found. The two places seems to be 2-3 feet apart.
     

     • Kinda makes you think GZ bumped his head on that little utility cover as they fell down.

       I notice the edge is broken.

       • This is exactly what I had wondered about, to. Nice close shot of the utility cover. I didn’t know if that was the rubberized type or made of something else. If it’s the rubber type, but was broken, it very well could have been what Zimmerman’s head may have scratched up against during the scuffle.

         bond hearing video: http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

         It could also explain why Gilbrath said at the bond hearing that Zimmerman’s story was inconsistent with evidence — in particular, Gilbrath said George Zimmerman’s story is that he was getting his head bashed into the concrete and that.he slid out from under Trayvon from the sidewalk over into the grass and shot Trayvon right after sliding out. (Bond hearing tape at the 1:49:01)

         Also interesting info from the bond hearing at the 1:29:02 mark, Gilbrath says the State has a witness that saw two people, one chasing the other, as they went by her window. At the 1:48 mark, Gilbrath says the witness described a chase going from near Trayvon Martin’s home back down the path towards the the area where the body was found.

         This is looking more and more like Zimmerman used one of those grassy cut-throughs to come up on Trayvon Martin.

       • Wow! Good point… I sure hope this investigation was done properly.

       • Good observation there is also a witness thet says they were in the grass the entire altercation. This would support what that witnesses statement

253. I believe that Zimmerman will walk. I was unsure who was guilty and many of the pieces didn’t seem to fit when I first started researching this case and it was easy to find Zimmerman guilty. However after the bond hearing and finding out how ill prepared the state was to even state they had a case I see no possible way they can make the charge stick. Besides how many family’s hire a civil rights attorney before the state has finished investigating? All of the misinformation and lies that have been perpetrated in this case have originated from Crump who is only after one thing. A trial so he can start sueing people for big $$$$. No trial, no $$$$$.

     Also it is easy to make a timeline from the calls that places GZ where the confrontation happened without GZ following TM. If you place the end of GZ’s call at the cut through on Retreat View he could have walked down Retreat View to find out house numbers so when the police called him back he knew where he was. Then he walked between the townhomes to the inner corridor and started walking back towards the T. TM seeing an opportunity to whoop somebodies ass jumps GZ from behind. You may not like that scenario but it is backed up by the forensics, GZ’s testimony, and witnesses. Really the hardest part to reconcile when supporting TM is what happened in the 3-5 minutes between when GZ lost him and the confrontation. Besides if GZ’s phone call is taken at face value TM didn’t even know GZ got out of his vehicle because TM ran while GZ was still in the vehicle. You can try to defend TM if you want but as of right now none of the evidence supports him.

     • Gmac,

       GZs call tells us only what GZ said, nothing about what TM knew or was thinking.

       if TM is running down Twin Trees and GZ is just on the bend, getting out of his car, TM could easily see him, if he just glances over his shoulder. Maybe warned by a simple habit thing like GZ turning off his headlights, he’d notice something changed and that would make him look around.

       Anyway TM KNEW he was being followed, he told his girlfriend so. And that convo took place well after GZ got out of the car.

       But you are saying, TM did not know GZ was after him, on foot, YET he hung around anyway for a chance to jump him, on the pathway? He thinks GZ is sitting in his truck, so he hides on a path 50 yards away hoping to attack him? how does that work out?

       Besides why would GZ need to find out where he was? if he is not following TM, all he needs to do is go back to his truck and meet the cops near or in view of the mailboxes, which is what they wanted in the first place.

       • DeeDee’s testimony can’t prove anything and doesn’t discredit GZ’s account and cannot prove anything. Ask yourself one question if your “best friend” was killed and you were talking to them just before they died would you wait 3 weeks to come forward? I know I wouldn’t.

         I would however want to know where I was to direct the arriving officers. Besides what is wrong with taking a short walk on your way back to your truck, in your neighborhood.

         • “Besides what is wrong with taking a short walk on your way back to your truck, in your neighborhood.”

           After stalking and before killing an unarmed teenager trying to get back to his neighborhood residence? Everything.

     • Also believe he will walk but in your scenario u left out the fact tm was on the phone with his gf an she said zimmerman approached him which conflicts with gz story. I just dont think the state has enough evidence to prove that gz is guilty even. Gz just seem like hes in good situation cause we only have his side. An from some of his actions so far how much can u trust gz storty who wouldnt lie so they wouldnt go to jail.

       • Read Nola’s comment below. I don’t trust DeeDee’s testimony. And actually she didn’t say who went to confront who, just that TM asked GZ why are you following me. It could easily mean that TM was the aggressor. To be honest I would lie to keep my ass out of jail but you are saying that he would remember exactly what he stated over several interviews without slipping up? I am sure there are some minor inconsistancies but nothing that discredits the testimony or the state would have way more.

     • Except.. The state has a witness that saw a man chasing someone away from the area where Trayvon Martin was staying towards the area where Trayvon Martin was shot.

       Bond hearing video:
       @1:29:02 – witness saw one person chasing another person
       @1:48 – witness described the chase going from near trayvon martin’s area back down the path towards where body found

       • They saw shadows of 2 people. Maybe it was Chad and Trayvon. Doesn’t help with anything. Let me know when they can identify who it was and I might change my mind.

       • This is the first I hear of this. So Z could have been chasing TM or someone could have cut off TM at this house, chasing him, forcing him to turn back and then come across Z? In other words he was cornered. I wonder if the mean in the white shirt is Taeffe/John who were trying to apprehend TM thinking he was up to no good. Then while waiting for the cops to come, Z is left with T and when TM panics to try to get away from these strangers the fight ensues.

         CAn you provide the link for this bond hearing?

       • Here’s another thought on the 2 people going from Brandy Green’s area to where the confrontation took place. Trayvon and Chad or even Tracy Martin ran back up the corridor to confront GZ. They were wearing a white t-shirt and didn’t enter the fight but were watching. After the shot goes off they jet because they don’t know what to do and know if questioned they will be in trouble. Pure speculation based on what evidence I have as many of the accounts on here are. Oh and I did detail events that made TM appear the victim in an earlier post. I just don’t believe that anymore.

         • You’re kidding, right?

       • CSFC,

         Do you have links to the bond hearing video?

         Tx

       • if zimmerman was set upon by 2 people and not just the one that he has claimed, wouldn’t he have mentioned it? Why would tracy martin run after zimmerman with his son and then just stand by during a fight…why did he come running from his house only to stand by while his kid was shot….and then dissapear into the night with no one seeing him, not even zim, and for what reason? and Zimmerman was not looking for an address, his car was parked on the same road you enter on…drive through the gates, past the sport centre, round the bend and there is the car..he didn’t need an address

       • So we got new witnesses appearing now? mmm!

     • If TM were going to “whoop somebody’s ass” he would have mentioned it to the girlfriend he was on the phone with. The way she described it, it sounds more like GZ showed up on the path all of a sudden. Also, GZ knew exactly where he was. No need to find an address for the police. Just stay with your vehicle till they get there. The addresses were right there on the front of the townhomes his truck was parked near anyway. The only reason GZ went down that dark path was because in his own words “these assholes always get away.” How do you know the forensics support GZ? They haven’t been released yet. All this site is doing is formulating what could have happened from what we now know as of right now and that is that GZ profiled TM, and then followed him after being told not to. TM apparently knew GZ was watching him from the vehicle so imagine TM’s fright when this creepy guy shows up again and now on foot. Are you saying if you were walking in the dark in a place you had a right to be doing nothing wrong, a stranger starts following you, you run, the stranger now shows up on foot, are you saying you yourself would be ok with that? Don’t you think the stand your ground rule would pertain more to you than the stranger that’s decided he will stalk you? This case reminds me of a bullying case. A bully gets in someone’s face and provokes stuff, the someone fights back and the bully is the innocent victim? Don’t think so.

       • Well said! Thanks for the comment.

       • So TM had a 15 sec start on GZ before GZ gets out of his truck and he is about a 30 sec run from home. So basically he can be home before GZ is even in the cut through….doesn’t compute.

         As far as the forensics go I listened to the lead detective state under oath that they had nothing that disputed GZ’s account. That would include the forensics. The only thing they are trying to use is that GZ used excessive force. That doesn’t warrant a murder 2 charge so they used DeeDee’s testimony that wasn’t even given for 3 weeks. Still doesn’t compute.

         • As the person being hunted, I don’t care where Trayvon ran. I do – however – ask why Zimmerman didn’t stop harassing the unarmed teenager when instructed to?

           The investigator obviously wasn’t going to show their hand. There’s so much info regarding the fight that we don’t have access to — can’t wait for the trial!

           • Yes, and note also that, he cuts off further discussion of his following by agreeing, “Okay!”, then continuing to follow.

             I’m getting the general impression that, GZ, rather than doing what he says he’s doing, was actually in fast pursuit at the time, attempting to cover over this fact by saying either he’s lost him or that he’s running.

             In any event, the facts seem to say that GZ had given this entire thing much advanced thought. Otherwise, how does it come about these claimed actions, that appear to be answers to why NW rules should not apply in this case?

             Of course, the answers he creates to answer the rule breaks aren’t good ones, but the fact is they are there. There’s an answer for:
             1. Why he’s carrying a weapon.
             2. Why he’s following.
             3. Why he didn’t start the confrontation (which he did).
             4. Why he fired that shot (instead of merely menacing).
             5. Why he doesn’t identify himself.

             His narrative includes some kind of feature that would make it appear that his violation of the rules was acceptable for this situation. Of course, these features fall, because he’s simply not supposed to engage under any circumstance. He’s trying to create a narrative of “hot pursuit” and “surprise attack”, none of which actually exist, to excuse his conduct.

             But it shows that he’s aware of the rules he’s breaking!

     • But there is no way that you can be jumped from behind and then hit square in the nose with a fist. This kid would have also been on the phone during the but-t kicking. I would also ask you this. If GZ was just planning to head directly back to the truck which would have had to be the case, why did he tell them to call him when they got there? You can almost see the mailboxes from the truck. I don’t think he knew where he’d be, meaning he was wandering about…

       • The broken nose is a quandry. However I can see three possible answers. 1. TM grabbed GZ by the shoulder and turned him before striking him. 2. TM said something to GZ and GZ turned to face him. 3. GZ hearing someone run up the sidewalk behind him turns to see what is going on. This is the area that can’t be proven from what was stated in the bond hearing.

         • And, none of this matters if Zimmerman listened to the Sanford Police operator and returned to his vehicle when instructed to. Instead, he harassed, stalked, and killed a 17 year old.

           • Certainly GZ or TM or anybody does not give up their right to live if they don’t listen to somebody in authority’s advice over the telephone. So all the arguments about how Trayvon had the right to jump Zimmerman are false. Or that Trayvon had the right to get even, etc. All false. Two possibilities to put Zimmerman in jail for awhile. One is if Zimmerman cornered Trayvon or hit first. Like if he cut through to the South and not the North cut-through. Second and more likely is if Zimmerman got the upper hand and did not allow Trayvon to flee before blasting him. If the voice really was Trayvon. If so then this is the moment of truth that CAN put Zimmerman away. All the others are false. Also for John, think it is worthwhile to count the seconds of his described travels. To calculate how long Zimmerman might have had the upper hand and what he decided to do during this time.

             • You can’t stalk, prey, or harass someone — that’s illegal. Once you do something illegal, Stand Your Ground goes out the window.

             • Also, we must not forget that GZ is no ordinary citizen. It’s not that the 911 operator is simply telling an ordinary citizen not to follow, but she’s telling a NW captain, who should already know that he shouldn’t do that and why!
               So, this admonishment is a reminder of the rules that GZ knows he has agreed to abide by, in order not to compromise the SPD’s investigation, requested by GZ’s own call for them to come and investigate.

               Unlike your average citizen, GZ has been taught how and why these situations are to be handled in a very specific manner. So, it’s not a casual admonishment, as some would have us believe.

               I think that if the police department had trained you how to act in situations like this, and you accepted NW responsibilities. If you failed to follow the rules you were given, and that failure resulted in the death of an innocent unarmed person, a jury would have little choice but to find you at fault.

           • Yes, and rather than being hit by surprise, when GZ turned, he was asked a question: “Why are you following me?” Sure that’s only the gf’s word, but against it we have only the word of an armed and very aggressive GZ.

       • But Gmac, you never address the fact that Zimmerman himself changed his mind about heading back toward the front gate. It is plainly on the 911 call. What was he planning to do, if he wasn’t going to meet them? That is certainly a conflict in what he said he would do and what he said happened… I don’t think he wants to admit to continuing following TM, because he know SYG would not apply to him. Frankly, there is little evidence besides his own words to hang him on. But if they are smart they will use just that, because it paints a picture of someone who would not let the person get away and had no intentions of waiting for the cops to take their time and get there.

       • @San San B –

         Good point, imo.

         “But Gmac, you never address the fact that Zimmerman himself changed his mind about heading back toward the front gate. It is plainly on the 911 call. What was he planning to do, if he wasn’t going to meet them? That is certainly a conflict in what he said he would do and what he said happened… I don’t think he wants to admit to continuing following TM, because he know SYG would not apply to him. Frankly, there is little evidence besides his own words to hang him on. But if they are smart they will use just that, because it paints a picture of someone who would not let the person get away and had no intentions of waiting for the cops to take their time and get there.”

         And, his words on the dispatch call (“he’s up to no good, he’s on something, he’s got his hands in his wasteband) coupled with *one* of the *stories* he told police (he circled my vehicle) shows how George Zimmerman will paint an inflammatory picture of anyone else he targets just to make himself appear to be a victim. Just like he did with his ex-fiancee and just like with the undercover officer. I’m sure he tried it with his ex-boss after throwing a woman out of a club when he was paid to be an under-the-table bouncer, too. It didn’t fly that time and he got fired.

       • zimmerman himself claims that trayvon asked why he was following him so there was definately no attack from behind…and witnesses heard lots of shouting and arguing before the yelling for help so it could not have gone down the way gmac or zimmerman describe

     • @tchoupi — I posted it under your vid at #252, but here it is again:

       http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

       There may be other sources, but I stumbled on it at this link.

254. I may have stated this in an early post/reply; there has been one thing about the girlfriend and the telephone conversation that I am having a problem with. DeeDee is on the phone with Trayvon and she hears the start of the confrontation, she stated that she heard somebody push, somebody must have pushed Trayvon because his earpeice fell and the phone went dead. She stated that she later called back and Trayvon didn’t answer his phone. In her statement she stated how afraid Trayvon was of this strange person but yet when she tried to call him back and got no answer; DeeDee didn’t bother to tell anyone, not even her mother what she has just witness by way of telephone. I would have expected for her to get off of the phone screaming and hollering about what had just happened. She made no calls to 911, she didn’t attempt to contact Trayvon’s parents, even after she found out that he had been killed she still didn’t bother to tell anyone what she knew. The next day she tweeted the following; “R.I.P. my best friend I am gonna miss you”. This is all she had to say about Trayvon and she tweeted all day. To me this doesn’t sound like someone who had witness such an incident. I began to wonder if she was on the phone that night with Trayvon so I decided to take a close look at the partial phone record from T-Mobile. I am not a T-Mobile customer so I don’t know what their bill looks like; however I looked at my cellphone bill, as well as a few other carriers and I came to the following conclusion. Unless T-Mobile’s bill layout is different from all other carriers including landline bills, this T-Mobile bill has most definitely been altered. Looking at the bill we see the calls listed in the following order one call made on 03/02/12 @ 12:45 PM and two calls made on 02/26/12 one @ 7:12PM and one @7:04PM. Calls are listed on cellphone bills and landline bills in order by date and by time. On this bill we are seeing the 03/02/12 @12:45 listed first when on most cellphone bills and landline bills that call would have been the last call on this page. The calls on this page should have been in the following order;
     02/26/12 7:04PM
     02/26/12 7:12PM
     03/02/12 12:45PM
     I also noticed on this bill, the word Emergency is written as I have written it here, however the word “incoming” is in all uppercase letter “INCOMING” which in inconsistent with other parts of the bill. Why would a carry give the details of one call in lowercase letters and the details of the very next call in all uppercase letters?
     The format of the bill is inconsistent. Between the first two calls there is no spacing between the type of calls, however between the second call and the third call there is huge amount of space between the type of call. The formatting is not consistent.
     On the second and third calls the telephone the numbers are blacked out, there is no way a 10-digit number could fit there and be consistent with the font being used.
     Between the first call listed and the second call listed that are words that are blurred, however I could make out North Dade FL and the date of 02/25/12. If you look closely this information is slanted down at the beginning of the information.
     The 911 call is a problem as well, according to Tracy Martin he was not able to get into his son’s phone until March 20th, who made that 911 call from that phone on March 2, 2012 at 12:45PM. Again I am not a T-Mobile customer but this bill looks shady, and I have a feeling that there were no call between DeeDee and Trayvon that night and that explains why she didn’t call and tell someone what had happened, the reason is because she didn’t know anything to tell. Her tweets the next verifies that she knew nothing about what went on the night before with Trayvon and Zimmerman. With a civil suit in mind, they needed a witness that could say she was on the phone with Trayvon night, and guess what money talks. I think that the defense needs to subpoena the cellphone record directly from T-Mobile, these are records provided by Mr.Crump.

     • Can you give us a link to the bill? The FBI and state can go directly to the carrier for the phone bill, no need to go through the victim’s lawyer, if that is your concern.

       • You can see the bill at wagist.com under missing minutes.

     • Frankly, I think Dee Dee is the key and I think that the defense has every right to fear her. What took place in that phone call could blow a hole in GZ’s defense or make TM look like the aggressor. I am sure that a lot more was said between her and TM in a 4 minute call, than was revealed to the press.

     • http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017

       Trayvon’s friend was so upset she spent a night in the hospital after finding out Trayvon had been killed.

       She also filed an affidavit concerning the call that night, well before the national media got hold of the story. She can be charged if she isn’t telling the truth.

       The Special prosecutor subpoenaed Trayvon’s young friend for testimony as well.

       Your story is confusing. Who’s bill are you referring to? It sounds like the girl friend’s in the beginning, then you question how Trayvon’s phone could be accessed. In either case, rest assured the prosecution has them all.

       • Is there records of DeeDee spending the night in the hospital? It really doesn’t matter whether she spend the night in the hospital, I just hope that $$$ is not the reason that this young girl eventually agreed to talk to law enforcement. Because if she is lying she about what she heard, she will fall, and she will share that lie with someone and it will get back.

     • You are confusing ABC news’ graphics with an actual telephone log. To my knowledge, ABC simply used a graphic. The State, however, has verified logs and didn’t rely on sensational graphics to tell the story of what actually happened.

       ABC news almost got me with that one, too. I dismissed the graphic eventually because there is no way in hell that the distance between Trayvon Martin’s last call and the 9-1-1 call shown on the graphic could have occurred.

       • I would hope that the state actually verified the information before filing charges. I don’t think they did. They were filing charges planning on a plea deal down to the manslaughter charge. However GZ plans on making the state prove it wasn’t self defense and I don’t think the state can. As Nola stated DeeDee’s testimony and link don’t pass the smell teste.

         • What doesn’t pass the smell test?

           Zimmerman not returning to his vehicle and waiting for the cops to show up as instructed. Also, Zimmerman needing to use lethal force though still able to walk away from a wrestling match.

           I’m sure O’Mara will try to claim Zimmerman had a concussion from getting his head rubbed in the grass and that’s why his stories to Sanford Police aren’t lining up.

           O’Mara almost provided us with Zimmerman’s medical records during the bond hearing. There’s definitely something he wants to get out but in the court of law. Ambulance called off for somebody with a concussion? Not a chance.

           • Also, don’t forget, he failed to give an appropriate answer to an appropriate challenge! Something even police officers must do, because if they don’t, even they can’t claim self defense, in situations where, as unidentified persons, they can appear to be aggressors.

             GZ, appears to be just such an aggressor in TM’s point of view. He’s only walking home from the store, has committed no crime, therefore has no reason to suspect that it might be a LEO following him. GZ knows that TM doesn’t have the foggiest idea of who he is or what he’s doing! So, when asked “Why are you following me?” GZ’s failure to identify himself, means he allowed himself to appear to be a dangerous aggressor.

             We don’t know how GZ presented himself when he answers the challenge with a challenge of his own “What are YOU doing here?” But we do know that GZ was angry and offended by TM’s presence. So, I can’t suppose he was smiling when he said it. Being evasive at this critical point in time, would be extremely dangerous, since GZ was armed, and it’s therefore very likely that GZ would draw his fire arm, when TM decided to try to defend himself.

             I don’t think you carry a firearm, frequently, and, in a situation that portends danger, you forget that you are armed. More than likely you feel you can proceed into dangerous territory, simply because you are armed.
             That sort of mindset appears to be why, GZ issues his own challenge, instead of identifying himself, because he feels he has the power to defend himself if attacked. Had he not been armed, I’m pretty sure he would have identified himself as a way to end the hostilities.

       • The girlfriend’s story of a confrontation that starts escalating is very much in line with other witnesses who live nearby.

         Again, I think it comes down to the screaming. Who screams for help as they shoot somebody?

       • DeeDee’s account does not pass the smell test…..in fact it stinks. I will not make excuses for her actions to explain why they were different than a normal humans. It’s kind of funny that here account doesn’t surface until AFTER the 911 calls are released and as NOLA pointed out the documents appear doctored. Why would someone doctor bills? Oh thats right because they don’t have any evidence to dispute GZ’s claim and if Crump can’t get this case to trial he has no civil case. Just ask yourself why would the parents contact a civil attorney and have him take the case BEFORE the investigation is over? Can you say MONEY.

       • @milo determining who was screaming for help proves absolutely nothing. The voice experts may can prove that the voice that was recorded on the 911 call was not the voice of Zimmerman, but they can’t prove that Zimmerman never screamed for help. Suppose you are into an argument with someone. Say the person sucker punches you and follow up with a body slam; jumps on you and began to slam your head into the concrete. Finally you decide that enough is enough and you pull your 9mm gun. Whoops the guy that has been kicking your butt see the gun coming out he reaches for the gun catching the barrel of it. You have the butt of the gun and he has the barrel. The fight is on now for the gun, you are not turning the gun a loose and the guy that is sitting on your chest isn’t turning it a loose either. Imagine this the guy sucker punched you, body slammed you, he’s a bad a$$, but the gun is pointing at him, guess what if I was in this guy’s shoes I am about to start yelling for help, somebody help me. Sometime we can play bad and when the table turns we gotta run. Zimmerman claims that Trayvon put his hand over his mouth and told him to shut the f–k up. If you listen to the 911 call you can clearing hear someone moaning as if their mouth is covered. Furthermore is Trayvon was sitting on Zimmerman’s chest he wouldn’t have been able to scream as loud as Trayvon; therefore, his screaming may not have been picked up over the 911 call.

         • If Zimmerman was screaming, it wasn’t loud enough to be heard. That’s for sure.

           • Why would GZ scream for help? In the transcript, the SP’s office appears to insinuate they have evidence that no fight ever took place. Thus, the cause of the screams was not a fight, but a response to a very real and frightening threat. GZ had the only deadly threat available.

             Another rather interesting point is, GZ claimed that TM covered his mouth with one hand, then covered his nose with the other, in an attempt to smoother him. If that had happened, we should remember that TM would be placing his hand, rather roughly, on GZ’s already broken nose! Can anyone imagine what kind of screaming that should have caused? Hardly an inaudible whimper I’d suspect.

     • Nice observation but i dont think the prosecutor would use her testimony if they didnt check the phone records themselves. This is the only evidence that contradicts gz story that has been realeased to the public so im pretty sure the prosecutor pulled the records for themselves to make sure her claim was valid an did not use crumps copy. An about the way she acted afterward is weird but not uncommon black culture teachs you stay away from police she probably thought the police would arrest him with out her help and her probably did not want her involved in the situation. An for calling 911 after what she heard would not help because she was in miami and he was in sanford an she no knowledge of the area he was in.

       • This prosecutor filed charges and then admitted under oath that they didn’t have evidence to support basic charges. As far as black culture teaching blacks to stay away from the police is an insult. I am black and I have no fear of law enforcement and I raised my children not to fear the law enforcement. These two were supposed to have been on the phone for over 6 hours that day, and we are supposed to believe that she didn’t know where Trayvon was staying. Apparently you guys don’t know teenagers especially black teenagers. I think a lot of people are going to be If a person reasonably believe that the actions of another person “is about” to cause him seriously bodily injury or death, the person has the right to use deadly force. Your head may can take being banged on the concrete but my head may not. One person’s pain tolerence may not be the same of the next person. A lot of people are going to be surprised at what info the prosecution has, and the weakiness of what they have.

       • @Goat –

         I’m with you. I found your analysis spot on. People don’t seem to have any idea about how the new generation will NOT “snitch” to the police and often to their own detriment while they think they are guarding themselves against the police. Today, it is nearly unheard of for youth (black, brown, yellow or white) to call the police to tell.

       • Nola this is a teenager. The level of maturity varies. There is a possibility that she wasn’t supposed to be talking to him or having a boyfriend. There are some strict religions/families in the south. I would like to wait and see what her reasoning is. Heck she didn’t kill anyone. I will consider it worse if Zimmerman’s statements conflict. People give him the benefit of the doubt, even though we have heard 3 versions of the story. The state may have focused on the timing, direction of calls and who actually could overhear the dispute. May be they don’t have video of the confrontation, but of some part. OMara refuse to take evidence. He just wants to keep up the speculation long enough to increase cash flow.

       • @Nola, it’s highly unlikely two casual friends were actually talking on the phone with each other for a full six hours non stop. In this case,the first call would have been made six hours prior to the final call when Dee last spoke with Trayvon and in all they may have been conversing for only a couple of hours during that time span. Reportedly, they were not in an intimate boyfriend/girlfriend relationship but that doesn’t mean someone doesn’t feel shock when they initially find out their friend died within a minute or so after they last spoke with each other. As we know everyone handles grief differently. After learning of the death of a friend, some people will be in shock almost immediately while it may not hit others until later. There could also be periods in between where one will shut down their emotions and appear to others as not grieving. If Dee Dee did go to the hospital because of an emotional reaction to Trayvon’s death, then it’s a good possiblity she was prescribed medication to deal with it.

         • I’m not sure why Dee Dee’s story is being questioned. Is there some known character flaw that I’m not aware of? No?

           So, let’s take the victim’s girlfriend’s account of the events as it is until/unless she turns out to be a pathological liar like Zimmerman.

           Plus, as mentioned repeatedly, her account of the events doesn’t really matter. We already know a grown man with a concealed weapon harassed, stalked, preyed upon, etc. and eventually murdered an unarmed teenager.

           • People “grasping at straws?” A person miles away from the scene of a crime, she doesn’t know is taking place, but finds out about later, has little to no chance of cobbling together a story that closely follows the facts and/or the timeline and fits properly into same. Even days later, a falsified story on her part would easily be picked apart. She’s no criminal with practice in telling lies and/or handling herself well, against skilled police investigators!
             All she can do is tell what she knows, as best she can remember it. As to making things up, not a chance! She wouldn’t know where to begin, or even how.

     • Here is the link to the copy of the TM’s cell phone log:

       Click to access call+log.pdf

       T Mobile has a bug concerning time zones. The log specifies that the times logged are in PST while they are in local time. This bug is explained there:
       http://support.t-mobile.com/message/117416

       All said, it just take one witness contradicting GZ’s self defense claim to justify a trial. As I wrote in my very 1st post, it comes down to GZ’s words versus DeeDee’s. I’m confident the Prosecution knows way more than we do. I can’t say if that will be enough to lock GZ for murder.

       Concerning the logs, they only show that TM spent his all day on the phone. The most important part is that he was on the phone on his trip to/from the 7-11 including between 7:12 & 7:16.
       We know the scuffle between TM & GZ has started about 1min before the gunshot which happened at about 7:11. So, the last phone call ends at about the time the confrontation begins.

       • You are an invaluable blog commenter — thank you!

     • The state has already verified the bill per the bond hearing testimony by Gilbrath.

       http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

       I suggest watching the entire vid because the news reports of Gilbrath representing the state as a bumbling idiot are far, far from what occurred. I found him to be a good witness for the state.

       • I agree with you. Gil was good at his task. He answers just and only to the question that was asked to him.
         This is what we’re trained to do before being audited. It’s quite of a difficult task to execute.
         By contrast, GZ goes beyond the limits and explain that he had no idea TM was a teenager.

     • witness say they heard voices and yelling, that is not consistant with georges claim that he muttered a mere “no” in response to trayvon asking why he was following him. It is not consistant with him being immediately jumped and smashed into the ground when all he said was “no”. There was an argument with raised voices, 2 voices, so he is lying about how the altercation started right there. And as for the phone conversation, i think the prosecution knows a little bit more than you do. They wouldn’t be looking at deedee’s phone bill, they go straight to the phone provider and will have witnesses from the phone company who will verify the information…you can’t go to court with evidence without backing it up, so i doubt what you can see on the internet is what the prosecution is actually looking at.

       • Exactly! That’s the point! The prosecution *has* evidence to support their charges even if it gets more clicks to paint them as lacking.

       • That’s perfectly right.
         Actually, two witnesses said the argument between the two men had two periods separated by a small gap of time. At least one of the witnesses said on AC360 that he had time to execute a small task during that time gap.
         This is not consistent with GZ’s claim of a brief encounter before the beating.
         DeeDee’s statement doesn’t include a brief gap neither. However, she says that the phone line went dead after the first argument. She probably missed the 2nd one.

255. Zimmerman claims Trayvon Martin was circling his car.

     Bond hearing video:
     @1:45 – bashing of head is contradicted by evidence and zimmerman’s story that trayvon was circling his car and zimmerman became afraid and then got out of the car to go after him

     • This is an important part of the bond hearing testimony that I haven’t heard get much play in the news. The circling the car account Zimmerman gave in one of the reports to police shows Zimmerman to have lied to the police, confirms he gave the police conflicting stories of what happened. It’s so ridiculous that it makes Zimmerman’s word a joke at best.

       • yep you are right there. he must have “forgotten” that he never mentioned this circling of the car in the police tape…he mentioned every other detail so i’m sure he would have described that as it happened if it had in fact happened

       • Plus, reasonable people don’t get out of the car to go chasing someone they are in fear of. When in fear, you take on a defensive posture. Since it never happened, but you pretend it did, it may be your way of trying to give yourself a reason/an alibi for taking out your gun and being ready to fire even though it violated your conceal carry permit rules.

256. Z’s gonna walk. Your boy’s still dead.

     • This is probably not an accurate statement given all that’s discussed above.

       • As much as I hate to say it, I also think Z will walk away with his only punishment being time served (Latasha Harlins comes to mind).

     • What is up with the your guy, my guy mentality? A person loved by his family still died. If Zimmerman is a liar, I hope that this is revealed. I don’t know that I can believe him innocent with so many conflicts in his words, but obvious our courts are based on what you can prove and just like Casey Anthony, he may walk. However, that doesn’t mean he is innocent. I cannot think that a person in this predicament would own the truth, but the conflicts are there. That is why it is the responsibility of law enforcement to do everything reasonable to determine the truth.

     • So sad that you would use a teen’s death to attempt to disparage the President and his VP — neither of them had anything to do with this tragedy. So sad that you would so coldly state “your boy’s still dead”. So sad you lack humanity regardless of what the circumstance may ultimately prove to be.

257. DeeDee probably did not know where TM was staying. When the phone goes dead she has no reason to believe TM is in mortal danger. And anyway what is she going to do? Call 911 and say “my boyfriend is in a fight with someone who’s been following him. I don’t know where he is except that he’s staying with his dad” ??? not much sense making a call like that.

     When she finds out he’s dead, she doesn’t know the circumstances. Especially not that his last words to her would be relevant to the investigation. Mostly if someone’s been shot dead, you just expect the shooter to get arrested. Certainly she’d not know the shooter was claiming TM started the altercation.

     Then she probably didn’t know his parents’ phone numbers, nor they hers. She was found from her number of TM’s phone bill. My understanding is that TM’s father was not getting into the phone itself, but into the phone BILL on the billing site. The police will be getting the originals from the carrier.

     • Exactly.

       • It also means something that in after 21 days, the persons most likely to contact her first would be the police investigators. She’s only a girlfriend, not family, so she not entitled to any notification and the police have TM’s phone. I doubt TM gave her the home’s land line number. Anyone see anything on that?

     • They most definitely need to get an original copy from the carrier because the one on the internet is one of the worst formatted bill I have ever seen,

     • In DeeDee’s statement she claims that Trayvon said that, “this guy is going to do something to me”. That statement along should have prompted her to at least tell her mother what she had just witnessed by way of phone. Something is up with that phone and that phone bill. Someone called 911 from that phone on 3/2/12 at 12:45PM. Who placed that call and why? I am not a T-Mobile customer but I have never seen a phone bill wireless or landline where the called placed last or recieved last show up on the call details page first. The above call is showing on the bill page first but most carriers would have this call last because based on the 3 calls this called was made last. There are inconsistencies in the fonts and the spacing used. The bill shows the details of each call, the 911 call detail is using lowercase letters, but the two calls from DeeDee; the call detail is in uppercase letters. There would be no reason for different size fonts when displaying details regarding one call. The second call’s fonts are very large, moving across to where the telephone would be, the number has been blacken out. Telephone numbers are listed using ten digits, there is no way using the same size font a telephone number could fit in that space. You can see shadowed and blurring writing between the first call and the second call, and the writing is slanting down.(North Dade
       Fl).It appears to me that this bill has been scanned, and edited to included calls from someone using those all uppercase letters in the word”INCOMING”. I have seen doctored documents, this one of the worst.

       • I think you are spending too much time worrying about an unofficial copy of this document. Whatever is wrong with this, it wasn’t caused by the phone carrier… I am sure that if the state subpoenaed copies directly from the carrier, they would pass the “smell test”. The integrity of their business depends on it.

       • You keep mentioning a bill. Again, you’re not looking at an actual bill and focusing on fonts is a distraction, imo. The one tchoupi posted is also not a bill and looks more like a log that would show up differently from browser to browser — that would cover spacing, fonts, styles, etc. It also looks like it might be a sortable web page and we don’t know how it was sorted.

         If this is a snapshot of DeeDee’s log, the 9-1-1 call a week later could make more sense. Perhaps that’s when she went to the hospital — after it sank in.

         “She made no calls to 911, she didn’t attempt to contact Trayvon’s parents, even after she found out that he had been killed she still didn’t bother to tell anyone what she knew. The next day she tweeted the following; “R.I.P. my best friend I am gonna miss you”. This is all she had to say about Trayvon and she tweeted all day. To me this doesn’t sound like someone who had witness such an incident.”

         She didn’t witness the shooting *incident* as the phone went dead before things got to that point. She witnessed the START OF THE CONFRONTATION. Confrontations c.an end amicably if handled correctly. It didn’t.

       • So if your best friend was killed and you know that someone was threatening him before his death you wouldn’t contact the cops right away? I can understand not calling 911 because you don’t know what happened, but the next day after you learn he is dead you still don’t contact the police. I can think of a reason why she wouldn’t come forward until she talked to Crump though. Trayvon was talking about how he was gonna beat the whitey’s azz and then Crump talked to her and changed it to her current story. I am just suprised that many posters on here look for every minor inconsistancy in GZ’s story and try to gloss over any error that supports Trayvon. Personnally I try not to get stuck in a rut heading over a cliff if I can.

         • Fiction of course.

           • How would she know “the next day”??? She tries to call him back on his cell phone and she can’t get him. The phone is ringing but obviously no one picks it up. Did the wet grass and rain ruin the phone? It would be good to know how many tries she made in the effort to get through. Because at some point in time the police have to pick the phone up. So, didn’t they hear it ringing?

             Like I said, the GF wasn’t family and wasn’t due any notification. The only way she could learn of TM’s death is if she had the home phone number. I doubt she had it. Did his father even know she was his GF? How long had they been going together? Because that might indicate how much she might know of the family or they knew about her.

             It certainly would be something if she’d kept dialing back for 20, 30 minutes, and they’re then carrying TM’s body off to the morgue with a ringing phone on it. Then to list it as a “John Doe”.

       • Um…. gmac there is nothing small about some guy circling his car and then jumping him from behind as he heads back to the car. How can someone jump you from behind if they are circling your car? Which is it? Did he indeed go back to his car? I am hoping that they have video footage from that camera near the front gate… If he did go back, it was to get his gun. If what happened to you is the truth, there is no need to alter it with the advent of evidence. Certainly, in a stressful situation we may not remember all of the details of a shocking event, but the venue and logistics of the matter shouldn’t change.

258. All the map-making about which way they went is interesting, but even without maps we can know:

     1: Z is heard leaving his truck 2.22 into his call to the police. They tell him not to almost immediately, 2.26.

     2: He says OK and sounds like he’s stopped running by 2.40. So he only ran for 20 seconds at the very outside.

     3: When 80 seconds later he hangs up, he is STILL NOT BACK AT HIS TRUCK.

     4: The neigbhours’ 911 calls start a further 120 seconds later. He is still not back at his truck.

     Either
     he had to step behind a bush for a long time
     OR with a suspicious looking guy hanging around he sat down on the kerb for a quiet smoke
     OR
     he was looking for M (trailing, stalking, following, whatever you want to call it)

     • Zimmerman leaves his vehicle and shuts the door around the 2:15 mark of his 911 call. Wind interference starts around 2:20. Running ends after 2:40.

       Map…

       

       Call…

       • That mysterious knocking noise towards the end.

         Is it GZ nervously checking his clip?

         Is it GZ knocking on John’s door?

         Is it GZ watching TM knock on his own door?

         • I’d love to know too.

       • @aussie @ NLME, I noted 2:14 as the door chime start but I could be off a second. I also noted that Zimmerman stopped breathing hard at the 2:39 mark which gives him 25 seconds of running hard. That’s exactly why I asked at comment #252 why the first map was tossed out. it seems to cover ALL the evidence to date considering we never heard George Zimmerman return to his car for 106 seconds. The door chime starts at 2:14 and the call ends at 4:05 give or take a second.

         Zimmerman could have walked to the grassy path, cut through it, either laid in wait or immediately approach and then chased Trayvon Martin back down the path. Revisit your original maps again — the first one and the one just like it showing the walk speeds. https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-timing.jpg

         If it would take about 35 seconds jogging to get the end of the grassy cut, then 1/2 of that puts you at John’s front door (perhaps knocking). If not jogging, approx 60 seconds puts you heading out of the grassy cut- through with a run/walk mix plus a brief wait for a response at the door. If it happened this way, George Zimmerman would definitely be in the position of forcing Trayvon Martin to back track his own path as he was approaching his home at that point and Zimmerman could still claim he was on his way back to the truck using an alternate route (and it is the alternate route part that the State can’t dispute).

         Add another 20-to-30 seconds to take the second grassy cut-through instead and you’re up to possibly 90 seconds for George to exit this area close to Trayvon Martin’s house and that leaves about 15 seconds for a scuffle before the shot. If it happened this way, George Zimmerman would definitely be in the position of forcing Trayvon Martin to back track his own path as he was darned near home at that point and Zimmerman could still claim he was on his way back to the truck using an alternate route (and it is the alternate route part that the State can’t dispute).

         FYI, if George Zimmerman went further up the Twin Trees path and used the last grassy patch to (where the road curves again towards the back gate), you’d add another 20-30 seconds and George Zimmerman would definitely be in the position of forcing Trayvon Martin to back track his own path as he was darned near home at that point and Zimmerman could still claim he was on his way back to the truck using an alternate route (and it is the alternate route part that the State can’t dispute).

         The problem is Zimmerman is a crafty liar that knows how to raise doubt since he studied law. That’s what the police were up against before the State stepped in and used better evidence and arguments.

       • @CommonSense,
         sounds good except for the
         “you’re up to possibly 90 seconds for George to exit this area close to Trayvon Martin’s house and that leaves about 15 seconds for a scuffle before the shot.”

         Don’t forget the tape with a lot more than 15 seconds of screaming for help.

         @Nola

         There wasn’t rime for them to meet twice during DeeDee’s phone call.

         I think when TM says “guy’s following me” he means round about now, not this very second, ie shortly before the call. He uses present tense as he is by no means sure he’s stopped following. He says he’ll just walk fast, which also indicates he’s likely out of sight of the follower.

         The “following me again” is when he again notices GZ behind him. We don’t know what position on what path they are at this stage. That is what this whole blog is about trying to work out.

         He said “I lost him” before the “following me again” not after. No way after being followed and having to walk fast/run to lose him would be go back, approach him in the truck and ask him why.

         I am increasingly doubtful TM EVER approached GZ in the truck and asked him anything. If he did, it could have been only very early in the piece, when it was just odd he was being followed, not later when it was obvious and getting scary. This would have been, at the latest, in Twin Trees near the clubhouse/mailboxes. Either when GZ tells police “he’s coming over to check me out” or a little before.

         (It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE he noticed TM was on the phone when he asked the “why are you following” which DeeDee heard. So that means there might be an ear-witness to that question. So he twists it to say it happened when he was innocently sitting in his truck. Trying to make out it happened earlier than it did).

         After that GZ says “he’s running” (south) then “he ran” then “I don’t know where that kid is”. He is told to stop chasing. His breathing slows down, indicating that he has stopped running. His call in this period indicates he is unsure where he is/going to be, indicating he is NOT heading back to his truck.

         Certainly he did not have time to get back in his truck, be accosted by TM, then get out a second time and end up 100 yards away where the shooting took place.

         We only have it third hand, from Tryavon’s father, that the police told him that Z told them M had approached the truck, asked him “Why are you follwing me” he said “I am not…” and rolled up the window. Third-hand.

         ———–

         One HUGE lie in Z’s story…. TM calling him “homie”. That expression totally means “FRIEND” and nothing else. It is not something anyone would say to a stranger, especially one acting in a suspicious or hostile way. GZ’s been watching too much TV as well as Clint Eastwood movies.

       • @aussie neutral outsider you said, “There wasn’t rime for them to meet twice during DeeDee’s phone call”. According to the phone records DeeDee and Trayvon call started at 7:12PM and lasted for 4 minutes until 7:16PM when the phone went dead. Zimmerman told the dispatcher at 7:11 that Trayvon was running toward the back entrance. This could not be the same running incident that the girlfriend is talking about when she stated that she told him to run, because she was not on the telephone with Trayvon at 7:11PM. He run at 7:11 (first run) then he runs after 7:12PM (second run) when the girlfriend tells him to run. He starts running at some point after 7:12 while talking to the girlfriend and according to the girlfriend’s statement Trayvon tells her that he is going to run around to the back and apparentley he does; he hides and tell the girlfriend that he lost zimmerman. He runs around to the back and he tells her that he lost the strange person; therefore, for Trayvon to say that he has lost him it is obvious that Trayvon is hiding somewhere. According to the girlfriend just seconds later Trayvon tells her that the guy is following him again. What does this mean, does it mean that only seconds later Trayvon walks out of his safe hiding spot out in to the open space, and WOW! there is Zimmerman right behind him again. I would think that a reasonable person who had hid would stay in hiding for at least a few minutes to see if the person who was following would show up. But if we are going to believe the girlfriend’s story Trayvon only stayed hid for a few seconds, and immediately walked back out into an open space knowing that someone was just following him. When Trayvon ran around to the back; assuming she is talking about the sidewalk that ran behind the back of the townhouses, just how far this he run, couldn’t have ran to far because the girlfriend stated just a few seconds later Trayvon says the guy is behind/following him again. The call started a 7:12PM, Trayvon tells the girlfriend that someone is following him, she tells him to run and he does and tells her that he lost the guy. (first encounter with Zimmerman during the phone call). Only seconds later Trayvon tells her again that this guy is behind/following him again. Then she stated that she heard Trayvon asked the guy, “why are you following in me?” (second encounter with Zimmmerman during the phone call with the girlfriend). According to the girlfriend Zimmerman is behind/following Trayvon, “again”. Therefore Trayvon had to stop turn around (because Zimmerman is behind him) and confront/ask Zimmerman, “why are you following me? Zimmerman asked what are you doing around here? According to the girlfriend she heard more of the conversation than, “why are you folllowing me, and “what are you doing around here”. I would expect that she did.

     • I don’t like to walk and talk on the phone, so it is possible that Zimmerman stopped and finished his call, he could have been a little tried as well considering he had been in hot pursuit of Trayvon for at least 30 seconds. After finishing his call with the dispatcher, he could have started back toward his truck. What was going on during those 120 from the time GZ finished his call and Trayvon’s phone goes dead. DeeDee speaks of Trayvon encountering GZ at least twice. 1) when she tells him to run, 2) when he tells her that this guy is behind him again just before the question; “why are you following me?” The first time that Trayvon ran, at the 2:08 (7:11PM) on the tape Trayvon was not on the phone with DeeDee because the call with DeeDee didn’t start until 7:12PM. After GZ got off of the phone with the dispatcher, based on DeeDee account Trayvon encountered GZ twice, once when DeeDee told him to run and again when she says that Trayvon said that this guy is following me again. Zimmerman claims that he returned to his truck to wait on the office at this point Trayvon approached him and asked if the was following him, Zimmerman stated “NO”, Trayvon accepts that and starts to walk away, Zimmerman exits his truck now for the second time, Trayvon tells DeeDee that GZ is following, she says to run. DeeDee stated that Trayvon says that he ran around the back, apparently hiding because DeeDee stated that Trayvon said he lost GZ. Trayon hides in the first cut through between buildings 1 and 2. He looks up and the is Zimmerman he has made his way to the cut through and he has walked down the sidewalk. This is when Trayvon tells DeeDee he this guy is following me again. Zimmerman has lost sight of Trayvon again, realizing that the officer was supposed to meet him he turns and head back up the walk toward the T. Trayvon is really upset now because this guy just told him that he was not following him and here he is looking for him. So Trayvon want to know does this guy have a problem with him or what. So he comes out of the cut through approaching Zimmerman from behind and asked him, He homie you got a problem with me. From there Zimmerman asks him what is he doing around there, it is at this point Trayvon realizes that Zimmerman is following him around because he thinks that he is up to no good, which really pisses Trayvon off. Trayvon isn’t going to hang around and listen to this because he knows that he hasn’t done anything. So he tells GZ that he is leaving, GZ informs Trayvon that the police is on the way, now that makes Trayvon more angry. They start arguing things get heated, fights starts, Trayvon is shot and killed.

       • At no point should Zimmerman been south of the T in the sidewalk. Otherwise, he’s aggressively hunting.

       • What evidence to you have to based that statement on? Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Trayvon was running toward the back entrance. When Zimmerman said, “shit he’srunning” Trayvon could have ran to the T turn right and ran south down the sidewalk that went past Ms. Green”s house. Zimmerman was in his truck when he said; “shit he’s running” therefore Zimmerman would have to be able to see Trayvon turn and go toward the back entrance. We know that Zimmerman followed Trayvon for about 30 seconds trying to keep up with him, therefore it would make since for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon’s path down the sidewalk. How far did Zimmermam follow Trayvon down that sidewalk before the dispatcher said; “we don’t need you to do that”. That will depend on how fast was Zimmerman running. Based on this breathing and the wind interference in the phone, I would suspect that from the time Zimmerman exited his truck until the his voice returned to normal he ran at least 250-300ft. Which would put him past the location where Trayvon was killed. Zimmerman was south of the T because that is the way Trayvon ran and Zimmerman during those seconds he was following Trayvon traveled path. Zimmerman had followed Trayvon south of that T before the dispatcher said, “we don’t need you to do that”. So he didn’t disregard the suggestion of the dispatcher.

       • Except.. The State has a witness that saw one man running after another one.

         Except.. George Zimmerman has the history of violence and Trayvon Martin is a walk away from confrontations type.

       • CommonSense can this witness identify the men? From what I heard it was 2 shadows. If they can’t identify the people than it could be Trayvon and someone he knows looking for a fight. Nobody knows. I stopped supporting TM when I realized his parents are looking for a payday not justice and the state admitted they had a flimsy case.

         • More fiction.

           But, I’ll guess Trayvon’s family is not keeping up with Zimmerman’s fund — yet.

           • Agreed!!!

       • @GMAC,

         “I stopped supporting TM when I realized his parents are looking for a payday not justice and the state admitted they had a flimsy case.”..

         1: someone got shot dead
         2: we only have the shooter’s version of what happened
         3: we are trying to work out if that might be true or not, because it makes the difference between self defence and murder.
         4: If this blog seems to be supporting TM , it is because he is not here to speak for himself. Everyone is trying to work out what his story could have been.

         Even TM’s parents want a BILLION dollars out of this, it makes no difference to the facts of what happened.

         TM was not shot because his parents want a “payday”.

         The trial is not because his parents want a “payday”.

         The trial is because someone was shot.

         The trial is NOW because it took a very loud very public fuss for the authorities to wake up that taking the lone survivor’s word , without looking at real evidence, is just not good enough.

         If you shoot a late-night intruder inside your own home, it is fairly obvious who had the right of self-defence on their side. In an open space it is not obvious, and there was evidence, on 911 tapes, BEFORE the shot was fired, that there is an argument/fight going on. Taking the survivor’s word alone was not good enough.

         The trial is about getting the WHOLE TRUTH. Nothing to do with “payday”.

       • gmac….if trayvon and someone he knows were looking for a fight, where was the other “looking for a fight” guy when the fight went down….the only other person in the fight was zimmerman….there were 2 figures, so far you have said it could be tracy and trayvon or trayvon and looking for a fight guy. No one was with trayvon or that would be the first thing zimmerman would tell the cops, if trayvon brought someone back looking for zimmerman why would they not then join the fight….it’s because it didn’t happen. George said it was he and trayvon, not he, trayvon and one of trayvons friends/family. The logical explanation is that it is either george and trayvon running past the window or 2 people totally unrelated to the situation…..

       • Aussie I have no problem with getting the truth. I have a HUGE problem with people trying to profit off the death of their child. The main point I was getting at are look at the star defense witness and when her story came out. As far as the inconsistencies in GZ’s account tell me how you could do a total of 5 interviews without a lawyer and have minor errors. Three interviews the night of the shooting, 2 walk throughs were it happened, and a follow up interview after the walk through. If all they have to go on is that is injuries don’t appear to be that bad and his story wasn’t exactly the same it isn’t much. The main fact is if they can’t PROVE GZ was the aggressor the rest of the evidence supports self defense and the case won’t go to trial.

         P.S If it was Trayvon and someone that he knows coming up the walk doesn’t mean George observed the other person. However someone else could of…hint the white t-shirt. No one can place this person and if someone was with TM hanging back in case he was overmatched they wouldn’t have needed to step in. Also just because you don’t agree if you can’t disprove it doesn’t make it fiction. Next time you don’t disagree prove me wrong with facts 🙂

         • Are you upset that Zimmerman killed an unarmed kid after a wrestling match and is now raising money?!!

       • Actually, the girlfriends actual words were that “he cornered him”. For me that meant that he appeared in front of him. We will see what the testimony states…

       • Gmac

         the whole world knows for sure TWO people were involved – Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman.

         One witness claimed to have seen the shadows of two people running, as if one were chasing the other. Didn’t see them, just the shadows.

         Pulling third parties out of thin air to account for two shadows seems to me more than a little far-fetched.

         Any suggestions who TM’s assistant-who-hung-back may have been? the 14-year old stepbrother who said nothing to the parents when they got home? the father who was out eating dinner in a restaurant? someone who just landed from a flying saucer?

         When and where did TM supposedly find this assistant in the space of 2 minutes?

         It’s pure speculation based on trying to make out TM (and someone else) attacked GZ or intended to. There is NO reason to think the 2 shadows seen were not cast by the two people known to be at the scene.

         We were not there. We can’t PROVE any of it. But we’re trying to keep to what IS known and working off that. It’s a matter of likelihoods and possibilities.

         Someone in a white shirt was seen actively involved in the fight, according to one version of events. That is not a mystery unidentified co-assailant, that is someone who only appeared on the scene when the fight was already going on, and it is not at all clear whose side he was on. Was he actually attacking ? was he trying to pull one person off the other? was the shirt actually really white?

         Why and where to did he disappear? NOT melted into the shadows, when residents started miling around. More likely (if we’re going to speculate let’s keep to the likely scenarios) they re-entered their own home (right there close to the scene) OR just milled around with everybody else, unaware one person had seen them involved.

       • white t-shirt guy was in the fight, not in the bushes…it was either TM or GZ or someone else. Neither martin or zim were wearing a white tshirt. Either the witness was mistaken or there was someone else there.

       • @gmac….you don’t need facts to prove that this “From there Zimmerman asks him what is he doing around there, it is at this point Trayvon realizes that Zimmerman is following him around because he thinks that he is up to no good, which really pisses Trayvon off. Trayvon isn’t going to hang around and listen to this because he knows that he hasn’t done anything. So he tells GZ that he is leaving, GZ informs Trayvon that the police is on the way, now that makes Trayvon more angry. ” is fiction. Not very good fiction. But fiction.

259. CommonSenseForChange, Thanks for the link to the bond hearing. It really is interesting.

     We now know that the chasing occurred from south to north thanks to a witness seeing the shadows of the two individuals one chasing the other.

     Defense will obviously argue that no one has ever seen GZ chasing TM. It could be TM chasing GZ, or two other unrelated individuals.

     Hopefully, that witness was north enough, like at the most north building blocks, when he/she saw those shadows running. If that’s the case, then the time gap between the chasing shadows and the scuffle cries would be too short to have unrelated individuals who wouldn’t be witnesses too.

     GZ could only have been walking north on that same path to end up at the place of TM’s shooting (>40ft south from the T) if he were going back to his truck. So, two unrelated individuals chasing each other just before the scuffle should have at least seen GZ walking north. They would be important witnesses to him.

     The prosecutor referred to GZ’s flashlights. He never finished the question he was about to ask. I was wondering whether the mysterious witness also noticed that the person chasing had a flashlight on.

     • Now my thinking may be off, but I was thinking just the opposite of what you suggest. I think there are multiple plausibles for why the witness could see someone chasing nearer to the ultimate spot where the body was found, but only one reason comes to mind when I wonder why someone would be chasing someone else away from an area near his home. That reason turns up as a George Zimmerman offense.

       I think knowing now that Zimmerman had flashlights, he really has nothing to validate his story that he was looking for any addresses. He could have used the flashlights from inside his car to locate an address. He didn’t get out of the car to find an address. He got out of his car to pursue and ultimately killed.

     • I read the bond transcript could you provide me with information regarding a witness stating that someone was being chased from south to north. I read the chasing part but it doesn’t say in which direction the chase was going.

       • @nola – http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815 tack 1:45

     • I believe the chasing from the North is very significant to how far GZ went to find TM. If GZ was chased, I doubt that he would leave that out, hence he was concealing it.

       • Excellent point about the fact that Zimmerman seems very detailed in what he says. Yes, it’s peculiar that he would leave out something as important as an event like Trayvon Martin was chasing him. Guess he didn’t think of that story to tell because he’s a man of big drama. After all, he invented the “he’s circling my car” story for the police instead of the boring he was chasing me story.

       • So someone has given a sworn statement, stating that the shadows were Martin and Zimmerman chasing each other, oh I sorry Zimmerman chasing the 6’3″ 17 year old Martin. I wonder how close together they were?

       • The point is, if GZ was being chased one second by TM, he wouldn’t have missed the chance to be the victim…. But I am guessing that if he had any hand in aggravating the confrontation, that would most certainly be left out of his version. Even a two year old knows how to lie about personal responsibility. It is probably a survival instinct.

260. Zimmerman states that he goes back to his car and Trayvon circles it. I think he did go back to the car, but it was to get his gun. I am hoping that where ever his car is that there was video that they can resolve.

     • I don’t think Zimmerman walked back to his car to get a gun. There’s really not enough time for that to have occurred (about 60 seuconds or less, imo). But, like you, I pray that someone along that back path had a security system that videotaped the back path since the residents claim to be worried about break-ins.

261. Transcripts from Bond Hearing:
     http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.01.html
     http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html
     http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.03.html

     • Thank you for the transcripts tchoupi –

       I’m going to repost the video of the hearing here also so anybody interested can listen to the whole hearing (without CNN’s commercials, typos and missed info during the commercial breaks).

       http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

262. I wonder, could GZ have driven his truck up, jumped out and caught TM, then one of his helpful neighbors drove it back down? GZ would have to be really quick on foot, to catch TM at his house.

     • Are you guys serious or what?

     • I wondered at one time about GZ driving up the back entrance gate before his chase of TM, but I ended up ruling it out since we heard him exit his vehicle and the door closed. Of course if there was more than 3 minutes that transpired between the time he got off the phone and the shot was fired, that could have happened. I don’t think there were 3 minutes between the end of the call and the deadly shot. I think (although I mispoke earlier), that there was less than one minute (less than 60 seconds) between the end of the call and the “confrontation” that lead to the deadly shot.

263. Did you guys see or read this:

     DE LA RIONDA: He admitted that he struck a police officer when the police officer told him to abide by his commands?

     S. ZIMMERMAN: The police officer didn’t identify himself. <======|||

     DE LA RIONDA: OK. You would agree that shows that — the year of that was 2005. You would agree that shows prior violence on the part of Mr. Zimmerman, your husband?

     S. ZIMMERMAN: No, I don't.

     DE LA RIONDA: OK.
     ————————————————-

     So now we know that GZ is aware of how even police officers are required to identify themselves.
     That explains why he knows enough to make is story contain a sudden attack, so as to preclude him having time to identify himself.

     • so GZ struck an officer because they didn’t identify himself but he himself did not identify himself to this kid he was following. And that’s from his side of the story. So i guess he agrees he deserves to be punched in the face since he justified doing it himself.

       that’s really interesting lonnie, nice observation

       • In all three of Zimmerman’s brushes with the law, he always claims to be acting reactively – rather than proactively – to a situation. Somebody must stop this man.

         • I think that when his text messages, emails and other messages come out at the trial, he will be shown to be a pathological liar, at the least.

           Funny how those guru pundits the media hires to spew silt, did not detect this bombshell in the mix, eh? One minute he’s claiming to know the law, even down to minutia levels, the next minute he’s all googly eyed, dumbstruck ignorant of even the most basic requirements he studied in the SPD’s 14 hour NW course.

           Taaffee mentions that he had patrol duties, but he did not take the 14 hour course. So, George didn’t tell him about it? Then what did GZ tell him about how NW was to be conducted? He was, after all the “Captain”, eh?
           Seems GZ was unable to get things properly organized, hardly a good way to express the fact that he’d studied criminal law and passed too boot.

           Me? I’m not fastidious, but I would have done what I did here; look up NW to see what there was to be learned about it. If I had joined that group, and been appointed leader, I’d have certainly written a primer sheet about the rules and handed out copies, to help with the discussion at the next meeting.
           Why is a criminal law student being so unconcerned about protocol? Could it be that he merely wanted the self aggrandizing roles, without having to hand over power to any central authority, as would happen if he sought registration with the National Sheriffs Association? They’d most certainly want to be sure that no unit cast bad karma on the entire project, by being loose cannons and unaware of the rules.

           I’d also like to know what that Community affairs officer, thought he was setting up, to have done it this way, without maintaining close supervision of the NW group. Did he attend any of the meetings? Obviously not! But, if he did, would he have made sure that the group understood the rules? Why would he not be concerned that the group might become vigilante?
           Maybe GZ’s text messages will open such questions, it would be very informative for NW groups and charters nationwide.

     • Exactly! Zimmerman has his family convinced that the key to his troubles is that the officer didn’t identify himself. It defies logic to think that he wouldn’t identify himself without also believing he was contributing to an escalation of the situation.

       • I got the impression that the text or messages of some sort may also lead to additional disparaging of blacks. Could be way off base, but I thought the State’s prosecutor doing the grilling (labeled by CNN as the ‘unidentified’ person) mentioned something about a “reverend” (Sharpton maybe?) and about Trayvon Martin’s father. (at 1:57) Zimmmerman also admits on the stand that his attorneys told him not communicate with Trayvon’s parents (at 1:55), but chose to do so at the bond hearing — against his attorney’s advice.

264. Hmmm… So now we know that GZ has even told his father about those NW rules, at least enough for RZ to attempt to limit the rules to “patrol duties only”. Which, of course, serves his son well, at least in appearance.

     R. ZIMMERMAN: Well, when they are performing neighborhood watch, that’s correct.

     DE LA RIONDA: Okay you were not involved in that neighborhood watch on that particular area where your son lived, is that correct?

     R. ZIMMERMAN: No.

     (this is from the transcript at the links shown above in a previous post.)

     • I caught that part too. Although, I think Zimmerman senior may have been having a “senior moment” and didn’t understand the question. But, what do I know?!

265. Uh oh… Reading the transcripts makes it very clear they have a whole lot more that they haven’t put out, Z is toast! Here :

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Gilbreath, I didn’t know we were going to be trying the case, I’m going to add up — I apologize. I want to add some questions to — you had reviewed or other members of the team had reviewed his interviews, is that not true.

     GILBREATH: That is —

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he gave — he the defendant gave numerous interviews to the police did he not.

     GILBREATH: Yes.

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn’t it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

     GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn’t it true that there is evidence that indicates that’s not true?

     GILBREATH: Yes.

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant — did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn’t breathe?

     GILBREATH: Yes.

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that’s when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I’m sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

     GILBREATH: Yes.

     UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But — and I’m going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn’t you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?

     GILBREATH: Yes.

     • Exactly! The media reports about Gilbrath not being on his toes is ridiculous. Gilbrath was on, even though he didn’t expect to be called as a witness.

       • Gilbrath absolutely nailed it. The media needed to be fixated on something and they chose an irrelevant point like who started the confrontation. As we know, this doesn’t matter since you can’t be participating in illegal activities like harassing, stalking, preying, etc. and rely on “Stand Your Ground” to bail (no pun attended) you out.

         • I hate to say it, but the media works their stories like a bunch of kids at recess in a school yard. In fact the kids in the school yard do a better job of working with rumors.

           One minute the media is focused on SYG, but when that fails stir the kind of controversy they want to hold the eyeballs, they go off on to something else. Anything to keep controversy boiling, nothing to lock down the facts.
           Then they wonder why people, capable of thinking for themselves, ignore them. I’ll watch “News” programs or pundits, only until I catch them sprouting nonsense, then I turn them off and go somewhere else for the info.

           • Anything for visibility and traffic.

             “We need a decent sounding storyline that gets the attention of a broad audience — these ad spaces ain’t gonna sell themselves.”

266. Thanks for posting the bond links. I am wondering about the text messages and emails that the prosecutor was referring to… Zimmerman states that he doesn’t remember.

     • I also definitely wonder – specifically – about the emails mentioned during Zimmermam’s bond hearing.

       • Aha! Unless I miss my guess, from my reading of what has been provided here, especially NLME’s timelines and such, I got the general impression that GZ was not alone in the laying of groundwork for this.

         I got that from the impression that, he’s trying to make it appear, that he arrives at the front gate by coincidence, in time to see the suspect. That, to explain why he has his gun and that he’s not on patrol. Two things that appear to weigh heavily on his mind throughout the entire matter.

         But, if you read very carefully, two or three times, the timelines, and collect the major questions about what happened where and when. You begin to get the impression that to get things in proper order, the way GZ would have wanted them to line up, he had to have spotters, at the least. Because the window for encountering Travyon out there in the front gate area is small. Perhaps 20 to 40 seconds for TM walking.

         It takes GZ less time than that to drive from his garage and out the front gate. Which makes the window of time, in which GZ crosses through this area, from the turn at Twin Trees, pass the mailboxes, club house, and out the front gate, even smaller, perhaps as little as 5 seconds.

         Then look at what could not have happened. For example, he could not have seen TM, as he crossed Twin Trees to the cut through, or the story would have started there. But, if he came around on the western roadway, then he would have to see TM as soon as he made the turn east. The story would have been different still. He’d have come up behind TM in his car and followed him to the cut through, which didn’t happen either.

         So now it seems that there was some communications between GZ and someone else. It will be interesting indeed to see what those communications were. My best guess is that someone else in the gated community was giving him information on TM’s whereabouts or progress.
         We will see.

     • yes the prosecution was definately not prepared for zimmerman to take the stand and i think the defense must have banked on that or there would be no way they would have let him up there. The prosecutor must have been just dying to drill him on all these inconsistencies but without all the facts in front of him he had to be careful not to destroy the case they were building. DAMN!! because at that point the defence hadn’t had disclosure so didn’t know what evidence they had. The prosecution was right in treading lightly but they did give an insight into some things, such as there are witnesses that saw or heard things that have not been on the news or 911 calls. And i want to know what the text message about tracy martin was…..zimmerman is arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything at this stage but the prosecution seem pretty confident, they’ve got plenty of shit and are just keeping to themselves.

       • There is a thing called discovery, you can tell me now or you can tell me later. It’s like playing poker, when you are dealt the best hand possible, there no reason to hold your hand because you know that no one can beat what you got. The only time you hold your hand is when you think that someone else’s hand may be better than yours. “they’ve got plenty of shit and are just keeping to themselves”. Some of the best legal minds out there will disagree with your statement. Matter of fact many have laughed at the affidavit prepared by the special prosecutor some have referred to it as a joke and doesn’t seen to think that it is going to get pass the immunity hearing, we will see. When there is discovery you can’t keep your shit to yourself, if you do sorry it want be allowed as evidence. Frankly when you know what you got, telling the defense want change that. If the state has an eyewitness that witnessed the whole thing, telling the defense want change that fact. When you keep your shit to yourself you must be worried about someone blowing holes in it. Trust me there will be no surprises.

       • at the bond hearing the defence had not yet seen the evidence the prosecution had. There was even a little discussion about it between omara and the prosecutor at the end. I don’t remember the exact words but something organising it. I am well aware that the prosecution has to hand over all evidence, the defence can’t build a defence without it, but at that stage when zimmerman was on the stand his team had not seen what the prosecution had.

       • of course they keep shit to themselves nola. Discovery means that all evidence has to be handed over, but it doesn’t mean the prosecution is going hightlight points of interest and let the defence know what case they are building, thats for the defence to try and work out.

     • I want to know who Zimmerman called and how John knew his wife’s telephone number.

       The prosecution definitely seems to know who Zimmerman called although it hasn’t yet been admitted into evidence so the State had to leave that part for later.

267. @NLME – Yes, there was something Omara seemed to want to get out at first. Now, Omara’s claiming that he wants to call off his request for him to receive the State’s evidence collected to be provided to him within 15 days. Me thinks Omara has probably stumbled upon why he needs to plea, but he’s framing this obvious back-down of his own demands as a way to protect witnesses — this after he put DeeDee “out there” supposedly by accident.

     @Lonnie Starr –

     In my most southern Floridian type of drawl, I’m just gonna say “Bless you chile!” 🙂

     You have stated very well what the common sense side would have done had cooler heads prevailed that night.

     “I don’t think you carry a firearm, frequently, and, in a situation that portends danger, you forget that you are armed. More than likely you feel you can proceed into dangerous territory, simply because you are armed.
     That sort of mindset appears to be why, GZ issues his own challenge, instead of identifying himself, because he feels he has the power to defend himself if attacked. Had he not been armed, I’m pretty sure he would have identified himself as a way to end the hostilities.”

     @Milo –

     The state’s witness Gilbrath has said that they have relied on the expert hired by Orlando Sentinel (who says the voice screaming for help is not Zimmerman’s) and the results of some other entity. This is all things occurring prior to the State bringing a murder2 charge.

     @gmac –

     At the beginning of this case, Trayvon Martin’s family could get a simple arrest for the murder of a black child. That’s probably why they contacted a civil rights attorney. This really is not hard if you presume the murdered child innocent.

     @San San B –

     “Nola this is a teenager. The level of maturity varies. There is a possibility that she wasn’t supposed to be talking to him or having a boyfriend. There are some strict religions/families in the south. I would like to wait and see what her reasoning is. Heck she didn’t kill anyone. I will consider it worse if Zimmerman’s statements conflict. People give him the benefit of the doubt, even though we have heard 3 versions of the story. The state may have focused on the timing, direction of calls and who actually could overhear the dispute. May be they don’t have video of the confrontation, but of some part. OMara refuse to take evidence. He just wants to keep up the speculation long enough to increase cash flow.”

     I found your comments to be in line with my thoughts on both the matter of DeeDee’s actions and your analysis of Omara’s actions.

     – DeeDee didn’t kill anybody
     – Omara is buying time for himself by refusing to take evidence. Omara’s latest request is for a delay of his own tv-demand to receive evidence within 15 days supposedly to protect witnesses (of course this after he accidentally outed DeeDee at the bond hearing). I’m thinking that those medical records he grand-standed at the bond hearing for the cameras probably have some flaw that he can’t yet work out, so he’s delaying to prevent the prosecution from getting hold of what he’s been pretending he has as evidence. Time’s running out!

     (On another note, Fox’s Murdoch is possibly about to get run out of the U.K.s, Canada prevented Fox from getting into their country and in the U.S., most news stories are about Zimmerman raising $200K for killing a teen and talking to Hannity.)

268. There was an incident in Portland yesterday that has been reported on the TV news. A man entered a convenience store in the early morning hours and raped an attendant brandishing a knife. Another customer followed the man when he left the store. He called 911 and followed the man. Police eventually caught the suspect. He is now in jail with $1.5 million bail.

     The main difference in the stories is that the follower kept a distance from the suspect, and the suspect was crazier than a bed bug. Oh, and they were both white.

     • Well said. Do you have a link to that story by any chance?

       • Check KATU channel 2 news. It should be there.

       • I haven’t read the story, but in that case following was in order because, the witness had actually seen a crime committed and knew that the suspect to be followed was trying to escape.

         While in this case GZ had witnessed no crime and saw no suspect trying to escape. He merely pretended that TM was trying to escape by saying “he’s running”. But what was TM running from? Him! Because GZ was the one committing the crime of causing TM to fear for his life! NW rules are designed so that you don’t do that. You don’t put people in fear for their lives by following them. If they are a stranger to you, you are also a stranger to them. So, if they can’t identify the person following them, they have a right to fear the worse. This is the point we’ve been trying to make, NW’er have no right to put people in fear of their lives, most especially if they have witnessed no crime, and the person to be followed is, therefore, not in flight to escape.

         GZ tries to say “he’s running” to make it appear that TM is trying to escape, which implies that he has to take quick action or TM will get away! The only thing GZ is missing is: GET AWAY FROM WHAT?

     • yes you are right, and another difference is the guy that got followed actually committed a crime.

269. There was more to that bond hearing than meets the eye, the reporters seem to have missed it, but the SP was locking down some very important points. I wonder who that “unidentified male” was? He was asking the most on point questions, ones that seem to be based on evidence that is as yet unreleased.

     Obviously, who threw the first punch etc., isn’t really the issue, the media is making it seem that way but no, it simply isn’t the critical issue. The SP has stated enough to get the case on the books, without giving away what they have. GZ’s insides must be churning! I’ll bet he’s getting cold sweats at night.

     • I’m literally shocked Zimmerman hasn’t taken his life yet now that he’s on the outside. And, I don’t say that recklessly.

       Here’s a man that was the son of a judge but couldn’t become a cop, filed for bankruptcy, failed miserably at something as easy as Neighborhood Watch, and will never be able to go out in public again — what else does he have to live for?

       An acquittal plus all the praise of the NRA and Stand Your Ground advocates? Well, this hope/dream is slipping away.

       • I thought that this blog was about finding the truth, it appears that you guys have already trialed and found Zimmerman guility, so why are we having a trial?

         • I think I found the truth and look forward to confirming it during the trial.

       • No matter the outcome, the cameras and lights will go off quite quickly, leaving GZ with nothing but angst and fear. Because he had to be “proud of his Hispanic heritage”, the white power groups have all but abandoned him, since he would be a symbol of shame after the trial is over, they would want little to nothing to do with him. But, I doubt he’ll manage to go free, any jury will probably want to safeguard several rights for themselves, if they should find themselves being followed by strangers without any good reason.
         Black followers aren’t the only kind they have to fear. We all have enemies and some of those enemies have some very nefarious designs at times. I sincerely doubt a jury would want to put those kinds of tools in their hands.

         All we have here is: Join a NW, follow someone, have some minor injuries to show to back up claims of a fight, invoke SYG as a defense for shooting to kill. Get off scott free with murder.

         I doubt anyone on a jury will countenance that!

       • It will be interesting to find out when GZ identifies himself as hispanic since he said some pretty bad things about “Mexicans” on his old Myspace page.

       • Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion even the people on this blog, but we live in a country where a person USED to be considered innocent until “proven guility”. As a black person I am outraged that my people would make such a public outcry regarding this incident when we see our people killing each other daily. The message that we are sending is, it is alright when we kill each other but if someone of another race kill a black person it is racist and by god we ain’t having it. I live in a small town where recently an elderly white couple coming home from a dinner date what shot and killed in their own driveway by a black man who took $20.00 from a wallet. Yet NOBODY made an outcry for these people, nobody set up blogs, Al and Jessie didn’t show up here demanding justice for these people and their families. If you pulled the stats you will find that there have been more murders of innocent people by my race of people than any other race of people. While we shouldn’t condone the unjustifable killing of any person the blacks should be outraged at the attention that this case has gotten while watching so much black on black crime and black crime as a whole with it being viewed as just anothe day in the lives of the black race. The case is not going to do justice for Trayvon Martin, because this case is about money. If Zimmerman goes to trial that opens the door for a civil suit after payday the cameras and lights will go out and the Martins will live happily ever after and not one thing will have been accomplish to prevent this from happening again. On April 21, 1997, a young black boy shot and killed a young white boy and then took students from the school that they both attended to the scene of the crime to view the body. This child’s body laid there for days and was viewed by other students until one student finally told. The case inspired the passage of a Texas state law making it a crime to know about a body and remain silent about it. This family was not looking for a payday and from their point of view even with the excution of the person who murdered their son there was no justice. However they fought for the passage of a bill so people who knowingly know about a body and say nothing could be held accountable as well. The Martins have stated that “all the want is an arrested nothing more and nothing less we don’t care whether he is convicted as long as he is arrested”. In other words this loving family by way of their lawyers are saying we don’t care if Zimmerman is convicted of killing our beloved Trayvon all we want is for the state to do is arrested him and there be a trial, you can let him go after that we don’t care.
         ALL TRACY MARTIN AND MS. FULTON WANT IS THE DOOR OPENED THAT WILL LEAD TO A CIVIL SUIT, “PAYDAY”. That ain’t justice for Trayvon and the thousands of other Trayvons.

       • so george shot their kid so they could claim pay day? how does that work? You are not black but nice attempt at making your comments appear more worthy. The Martins did what they had to because the police did not charge this man even though he killed their child…it is not about black on black crime or anything else. An unarmed child died because someone decided they had no right to walk home, the admitted killer wasn’t charged, you would also use any means possible to get answers.

270. Any word on how Trayvon got into the complex? Understand there is a fence in back and Trayvon might have climbed over. So maybe Zimmerman thought he snuck in? Also if he did climb in whether there is a gap in the fence or whether he had to climb.

     • See the last update regarding Frank Taaffe’s address. Trayvon could have entered at the front gate or either of the other two non gated “entrance points” sited.

       • There may be some sort of “preliminary hearing” at which pretrial motions are made and/or argued, so we may get more info then, that will allow us to eliminate or decide this point.

         • Yes – I look forward to that too. I basically look forward to anything that has people swearing under oath in this case.

     • At the beginning of the case, a picture had been available that showed a broken fence and it was implied Trayvon might have cut through there ( as so many youths would do and adults for that better). IMO— this broken fence could be another reason that Trayvon’s parents might be able to sue the Homeowners Association. This would have created issues with trespassing. It looked like over 10 feet of fence was falling apart. Sorry i don’t have time to find the link.

       • Was Trayvon a legal resident of this community?

       • a legal resident of this community as in how….do you have to own your own home? do you have to be renting a home? do you have to put your name on a list that says “legal residents only”? or can you be a guest of someone in the community? I think trayvon was the latter, and unless visitors were not allowed by anyone in that gated community Trayvon Martin had just as much a right to be there as anyone else.

271. All this running up and down the back path..like something out of Keystone Cops. And no combination seems to account for all the witness statements. .

     The shooting happened on the path, below (south of ) the T junction. That is where this tragedy ENDED.

     There is nothing at all to say that is where it started. Z never ever tells the police (in the call) that M is on the path. All he says is ‘he’s running”….towards the other entrance… the rear entrance in the south.

     From Zs statements about the position of his truck, there is NO WAY he had a view of that T junction.Therefore no way to see M turn towards south on the path. Especially not combined with also being able to see him sheltering at the clubhouse.

     Both ran SOUTH on Twin Trees Lane. They went through different cut-throughs between buildings onto the path. The runs NORTH were on the path (backed up by witness seeing the shadows going south to north). Who was in front, who behind, would depend on who used which cut-through and/or how long they hid there.

     This route would justify Z in stating he was heading back to the truck. Well, maybe not intending to go to it, but in that direction at least.

     If he later told police he was above the T (north and slightly east of it) looking for a street sign, THAT was a lie, to cover the fact he’d chased M down Twin Trees and back UP the path. Because from a Twin Trees chase, once abandoned, the sensible and direct route back to the truck is back up Twin Trees, not skulking around a big detour on the inner footway.

     I really do believe this scenario removes a lot of the inconsistencies in the timings, without either party having to “lie in wait” for the other, whose location they were unsure about.

     Here’s my map again for those who missed it. I no longer like the possibility of the path near the pond (suggested in a Youtube video) as it doesn’t fit with the 2 running shadows story.

     

     • With enough light – street or otherwise – I think Zimmerman could have seen down the path that leads to the T from his parked truck.

       • Could moonlight have been a factor that night? A bright full moon might have helped visibility a bit.

         • Rain storms. Piss poor visibility given the fact that the air ambulance for Trayvon was called off.

           • Yes, yes, yes, but a full moon could help GZ’s case a lot, since we all know what a full moon can do to people. Now GZ’s gone and failed at everything, I mean everything. I understand that even his cat has run away.
             Just trying to be helpful.

       • I’m not thinking of light…in my scenario GZ drove along Retreat View from west to east, and then down the dog-leg in Twin Trees, leaving him facing east. His headlights would be shining east.

         It’s the ANGLE. If he’s on Twin Trees on the correct side of the road, the house on the corner closest to the pathway would be blocking his view of most of the path, including the T junction.

         Don’t forget from the tape analysis he is still in the truck when he says about running to the other entrance.

         But if he sees M start to run around the bend in Twin Trees, he knows it’s towards the other entrance, whether he can see him beyond the bend or not, because that is where Twin Trees leads to.

         I believe while this convo is taking place he drifts down around the corner to get a better view of this. (No need to hear sounds of the engine revving, you don’t need to rev to get a car rolling along in low gear, especially an automatic. The click sound before the door-chime sound could be turning off the ignition.).

         TM, noticing the headlights “following” behind him, starts to run. GZ is out, chasing on foot. TM ducks into the next cut-through to get out of sight. “He ran”.

       • If you look a ground view of the area one can stand a the T in the
         side walk and actually see cars parked along the north side of Twin Trees where Zimmerman’s truck is parked facing west. The north side of building one that faces Twin Tree has about a 15ft setback where there is grass and hedges along side of the building. One can stand at the T and see the mailboxes. There is an excellent ground view of the whole scene at http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/17/update-9-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-latest-developments, will remove all doubt regarding whether Zimmerman could see Trayvon run to the T in the sidewalk, turn right and head toward the back entrance. Many people are assuming that the back entrance is due east toward Retreat Circle, when in fact the back entrance is south of the T in the sidewalk and so is Ms. Green’s townhouse. Trayvon had reached the T when Zimmerman stated, “shit is is running” the dispatcher ask which way and Zimmerman said toward the back entrance. Zimmerman was sitting in his truck watching Trayvon in his rearview mirror. When Zimmeman said he ran, he exited his truck, because of the 70 so feet jump that Trayvon had on Zimmerman by the time Zimmerman reached the T in the sidewalk Trayvon had ran completely out of sight of Zimmerman’s line of vision. Zimmerman did run down the sidewalk a short way, but since he couldn’t see Trayvon he told the dispatcher, “he ran”. How far was Trayvon able to run down the sidewalk before Zimmeman made it to the T? Trayvon is 17 and 6’3″ tall with a 70ft head start on Zimmerman, from the time Zimmerman said, “shit he’s running until he says, “he ran” 26 seconds went by. Trayvon is at the T at the start of those 26 seconds, if Trayon could ran a 100 ft in 10 seconds that about 260ft, we can assumed that by the time Zimmerman stated he had ran, Trayvon was going through Ms. Green’s back door.

         • I don’t question the back entrance’s location or where Trayvon was staying. I question why Zimmerman was south of the T when his vehicle was due west of where the 911 call ended.

     • I agree that TM would have run more south in this direction and GZ would have cut through and appeared in front of him as he hid in the path between houses. Perhaps he felt that because the guy was in a vehicle that he would be left in peace in the pathway. That is why I think the GF used the term “cornered”.

       • With Zimmerman knowing that there were numerous cut throughs and privacy giving Trayvon many escape routes and not knowing which one he would take, it would make more sense for him to follow the same path of Trayvon. Say Trayvon ran down sidewalk behind the townhouses; the each row of townhouses have 2 unpaved cut throughs and each townhouse also have privacy fences; say Zimmerman heads down Twin Tree how is Zimmerman going to know if Trayvon is going to hide in any one of the 4 unpaved cut throughs or behind anyone one of the 30 or more privacy fences. How does Zimmerman know if Trayvon is going to run through a cut through on the Retreat Circle jump a fence and keep going, he doesn’t know. Therefore it is more likely than not that Zimmerman followed the same path as Zimmerman. Confronting Trayvon was not Zimmerman goal, keeping an eye on him was his objective until the officer arrived. Therefore cutting him off was apart of the plan. If Zimmerman wanted to confront Trayvon and have a knock down drag out that so many want to believe, George Zimmerman had many opportunities to do that.
         1) For those who thinks that Zimmerman saw Trayvon entering the community; he could a pulled over and asked “what are you doing around here?
         2) When he him around the clubhouse, instead of calling 911 he could have just gotten out of his car and ask, what are you doing hanging around here?
         3)When he was him walking past the mailboxes headed on to Twin Tree, he could have pulled up be side him and asked, what are you doing hanging around here?
         4) As Trayvon approached his car headed toward the cut through, Zimmerman could have exited his car and asked, what are you doing around here?
         There were many changes for Zimmerman to approach Trayvon and have it out with him if that is what he wanted to do. Zimmerman was doing what NW do they observe the suspect until the officer arrived.

       • San San, TM would be wanting to go south anyway — that’s where his house was. The logical way is down Twin Trees to the end, turn left, go 2 houses up the path to the back door IF HE CAN GET IN through the back door. Otherwise continue left to go around 4 houses to the front door.

         With GZ parked (and whether the “why are you following me” conversation happened or not) TM could start down Twin Trees, his normal route, not yet escaping, just walking fast because of the rain. He tells the girlfriend the guy is following him as something strange, not something he’s terrified of.

         Then he becomes aware of GZ still following (headlights, sees him on foot) NOW it becomes an obvious chase. NOW he has to start running, ducking, hiding, lying low. NOW he’s afraid.

         Once he goes through a cut-through he does not see GZ to know he’s stopped. Last he saw, GZ was following him south. So south is the worst direction for him to take, as it’s the likeliest place to come face to face with the stalker.

         So he goes north on the path, perhaps to the next cut-through, to take some shelter and keep talking to DeeDee. Thinking he’s lost the tail, he starts walking again, just in time for GZ to show up, having gone through a cut-through to get a good view of the path in both directions.

         He turns and asks Why are you following me? a smalll scuffle ensues, he starts running, GZ runs after him. They reach the area where the shooting happens. To this scenario, it doesn’t matter who was a fraction ahead of who, if TM comes out of a cut-through to see GZ nearby going up the path, he still feels he’s being followed (because last he saw, GZ was going down Twin Trees, so being on the path = following).

         Witnesses hear argument. Witnesses see “wrestling”. Witnesses hear cries for help and a shot. We don’t know who started the fight.

         Definitely it has to be GZ chasing…. on his claims (which we only have third-hand) TM did not chase him, just “jumped” him from behind, again on his claims AT the T junction.

         If he jumps him at the T, as he’s walking west towards his truck (having gone east to look for a street sign) the shooting would be at the T, not 20 yards south of it. And where, in that top stretch of the path, could TM have been hiding? on somebody’s back porch? And he sees GZ crossing the top of the path, east to west, why would he assume GZ is still following him? as he’s now in front of him and going a different way? Actually if they both first entered the path from the north, TM would not be looking north, he’d be heading south, with or without a time out to hide for a while. And would have to be well south of the T for GZ to say he lost him, he ran.

         If TM is in a cut-through and jumps GZ as he walks past, breaking his nose etc etc, the fight and shooting would have to be near that cut-through, not 3/4 of the way up to the T.

         If TM sees him following FROM the cut-through, there’s an exchange of words and they both run north, THEN they end up in the position the fight was at.

       • My suggestion was that TM ran all the way to the end of the street and then cut back into the walkway and hence may have been headed back north. Does Ms. Green live in the last townhouse? I suspect George actually saw him make it to the end of the street and then turn the corner That back entrance would be on that street. He may have decide to just hang out in they pathway. Maybe it was something he did when he was on the phone at dads. Most teenagers want privacy and perhaps there wasn’t much with a little kid around.

       • you are right nola,zimmerman had many a chance to tell trayvon he was with neighbourhood watch but didn’t, not even when the kid asked “why are you following me”?

       • @Nola, it would have been protocal for Zimmerman to identify himself as NW captain, but regrettable he did not. I guess he learned that trick from his 2005 altercation with the undercover officer, whom he claimed did not identify himself to an underaged drinker, before Zimm assaulted him.

         According to NW rules, wasn’t he to only report any suspicious activity and then to remain in his vehicle until the police arrived? Why would he pursue Martin, which he admitted to when the dispatcher asked, “Are you following him?” However, his later excuse when investigated by police was that he left his vehicle to look for an address. So we are now to assume he was not stalking Martin? Can you understand why not every one takes Zimmermans word for all this? We are all for finding the truth.

       • @ San San B –

         Exactly! He didn’t really believe he was being threatened at that point since he’s not the one paranoid about others. He simply took precautions just in case. Girlfriend said run. He says he’s just going to walk fast. He runs anyway, since he’s sensible and errs on the side of safety from a teens perspective.

         He thinks he’s gotten away and chats up his girl some more. He’s then approached by Zimmerman again!

         “I agree that TM would have run more south in this direction and GZ would have cut through and appeared in front of him as he hid in the path between houses. Perhaps he felt that because the guy was in a vehicle that he would be left in peace in the pathway. That is why I think the GF used the term “cornered”.”

     • @ NOLA, Regarding your previous comment sayingTracy Martin said when hearing those final screams for help it was not his sons voice. I have no idea where you picked that up Nola. An interview of Tracy Martin appearing on Anderson Cooper confirms he said those screams were the very last words he heard of his son. When the mother heard the 911 tape at the same time, she was as heartbroken as he. Neither of them suggest becauseTrayvon was black as the reason why George profiled him They wanted to know why their son be profiled as looking suspicious since he was only walking home from the store. Remember that gated community was of mixed ethnic groups, approx 30% black, so the color of his skin was not out of the ordinary. As for the money you claim the parents are trying to get from this, tell me you are just assuming that because if not, that accusation is going way overboard.
       If it was my son in the same situation who died the same way and the person who shot him got off with a slap on the wrist without a full investigation, you bet I would be livid and asking the same questions as Trayvon’s grieving parents. I would demand this case be thoroughly investigated by someone besides the Sanford police dept. It’s not about the money by a long shot – it’s about justice for Trayvon Martin.
       Btw, I and my grown son are white Caucasian if it makes any difference.

272. Talked to my cop buddy about gun shot muffling. He says an automatic weapon like GZ used would discharge sound through the barrel. A revolver would also discharge sound through the sides.

     Not scientific at all, but it seems to me that gun shot was awfully loud. That would indicate there was some distance between the gun and Trayvon; i.e. the gun was NOT pressed right up against Trayvon’s body.

     Cop friend also didn’t believe somebody about to pull a trigger would be screaming for his life. FWIW, cop buddy has no stake in this. Doesn’t understand the fuss. But that’s another story.

     • Interesting information. Tx Milo.

       We know that there are evidences that the gun went off in close proximity to TM’s sweater.
       We have Flashlight’s account of events stating that he could see from the Hoodie that the gun was shot at close range. Since TM was lying face down on the grass, it all tells me that TM was trying to break free while GZ was holding on his hoodie. Maybe TM was standing up to run away while GZ was lying on the ground. It would have been some gap between TM and the gun when it went off through the sweater causing the marks. Then TM fell dead on the grass face down. GZ went straddling TM maybe to quickly put the hoodie back on in a reflex to hide his crime.

       This is actually an update to an hypothesis I made on this blog some times ago by which TM is white t-shirt because his Hoodie was being pulled off by GZ holding on it.

       • Nobody had on tees. Sweaters, hoodies and bomber jackets don’t look like tees. Although I do think that Zimmerman was pulling at Trayvon Martin’s hoodie and made his earpiece fall which interrupted the call he was on with his girlfriend causing his phone to hit the ground.

273. Interim Police Chief Named for Agency in Martin Case

274. George Zimmerman’s crude Myspace page from 2005 uncovered

     Excerpts:

     While it includes photos of an ethnically diverse group of friends, the murder defendant’s 2005 web presence includes disparaging remarks about Mexicans.

     O’Mara said he had agreed to take the case for free, but reconsidered once he learned he could be paid using web donations.

     • The “friends” in the photos along with the commentary appear to indicate they are possible co-workers, not friends. All comments refer to inside jokes of those in the “security” circle. Zimmerman worked as an under-the-table bouncer per one of his “friends” who claimed he picked up and threw a woman at one of the events. This, according to news reports, was why he was fired from the under-the-table security job.

       As to Omara, it is not surprising. He wants to be paid for his services. He *should be paid for his services if, like the *taxpayers, he’s discovered his client’s hidden cash. Taxpayers should NOT have to pick up the tab for Zimmerman if he has cash and definitely taxpayers should not have to pick up the tab for Omara’s expensive grandstanding.. oops, expensive lawyering.

       • but the question is, why was zimmerman asking his “fans” for money for legal fees when his lawyer had offered to do it for nothing?

       • Timeline. Website was put up when GZ still had other lawyers he was obviously not happy with and before O’mara took the case pro bono.

       • His attorneys were doing it for free because Zimmerman gave the same “I’m indigent” argument to the attys as Zimmerman gave to the state. His attorneys also know that they will get paid later in the free publicity or in the lobbying industry. NRA immediately comes to mind.

         Now that they know there is web-collected funding, they want to be paid up front. The bond should also be raised, imo, and there should never be any reason for the taxpayers to allow this Zimmerman person to get a state-appointed atty to represent him unless the state takes all of his collected contributions first (even after his new atty Omara quits like the others did).

         Also, Zimmerman’s website asked for money for “living expenses”, not legal fees. They are also not considered charitable for tax write-off purposes I think.

       • yes it was for legal fees and living expenses. If he had already made 200k by the bond hearing imagine how much is in there now. What happens to the left over funds if there are any or is george going to live off this money for as long as he can?

275. Stand Your Ground task force to hold public hearings

     Could this be one of those cruel jokes Florida is known for?

     • I hope they change syg or get rid of it. I just read a story about a 29 year male who had the mind of a 13 year old who was shot and killed at a taco bell in arizona by a man who was in his vehicle because he felt threatened and thought the other guy had a pipe or a bat. So, instead of driving away which he said could not do because the mans dog was in the way so he pulled his gun cocked it an shoot because felt threatend even though he was not attacked in no way an the police have not made an arrest. How was this standing his ground.

       • They need to change it, from you (claiming afterwards ) fearing for your life, to what a reasonable person would fear. Armed intruder at night? sure, shoot him. Slightly weird guy with dog near your car in daylight? leave him alone. Even if he has a visible bat or pipe.. no reason to think it is YOU he’s planning to use it on = no threat = no fear for life unless paranoid. Which, let’s face it, more than a few CCW people must be or they’d not have weapons in the first place. SYG cannot be an excuse for paranoids to go about killing people, while a woman firing a warning/scaring shot faces 20 years.
         The way this law seems to be at the moment, you HAVE to shoot to kill, to stop the other person telling their side of the story. Or just go back to charging everyone who pulls a trigger and let the courts find out if it was reasonable or not.

       • Personally, I’d like to see the vids from Taco Bell’s security on this one. I’ve heard conflicting accounts of what happened. Some stories say the victim was banging the man’s car with an object and threatening the driver from the passenger side and the woman on the passenger side was a pregnant woman and scared. The whole thing is disturbing.

         Other stories question why someone looking like an adult was out alone if he couldn’t make reasonable decisions as an adult which is what most reasonable people encountering him would assume. They suggest negligence on the part of the victim’s caretakers. Yes kids walk dogs all the time and that’s probably reasonable if their reactions to accidents don’t appear threatening to others.

         Sad situation all around.

     • Look up the Marissa Alexander SYG case. It’s a real tear-jerker and just when you’d have thought the “legal” system couldn’t get any worse.

       http://www.change.org/petitions/free-marissa-alexander

276. Say it’s 2 a.m., I hear someone climbing through my window.I go to that room with my loaded gun in my hand.
     1: I see they have a knife/hammer/machete/gun. I fear for my safety. I shoot them. I stood my ground.
     2: I see they have a knife/hammer/machete/gun. I fear for my safety. They drop their weapon and put their hands up OR turn to climb back out the window. I shoot them. I committed murder.
     3: their hands are empty. They put them up. They say I was only looking for some cash, don’t hurt me. I shoot them. I committed murder. I neglect to tell the police they said they meant no violence. I get away with murder.

     Someone screaming for help for 45 seconds is not endangering your life. They are in fear for their own safety.

     Okay, someone can start a fight, and after a while find themselves losing badly, so start screaming for help. But at that stage they are NO DANGER to the other person, no matter how endangered that person may have felt at the time of the first blow. SYG lets you shoot in order to save yourself from the life-threatening situation — not to at some later time shoot someone you once were in fear of.

     • RE: aussie neutral’s last 2 paragraphs.
       That’s why I believe GZ was charged with Murder 2.

277. correction:

     @gmac –

     At the beginning of this case, Trayvon Martin’s family could NOT get a simple arrest for the murder of their black child. That’s probably why they contacted a civil rights attorney. This really is not hard if you presume the murdered child innocent.

     • the way you put it makes it seem so simple….well said, if there was a like button i would have pressed it!

       • You’re too kind! 🙂 We all seem to just want the truth. I’m way past annoyed that we can’t get good news coverage of the facts, and only the facts.

         I think most of us would come to the same conclusion about right/wrong if the facts were more easy to come by.

         • I find it annoying that CNN acts as if, just because they break for commercials, that the courtroom action during that period isn’t available.
           Thus the transcript stops at the commercial breaks and picks up with minutes missing. I guess they just want to make an incomplete report public, so they have room to spin as they please.

     • @Lonnie –

       That’s why you gotta view the vids. No commercial breaks. If I remember correctly, the “circling my car” piece is missing from the transcripts, but can be clearly heard on the vids.

       • I keep forgetting I’m no longer on dial-up! lol

278. If you want to see how the so-called “justice” system works wrt SYG, take a look at this shocking outcome:

     http://www.change.org/petitions/free-marissa-alexander

     – woman has CCW permit
     – woman in abusive marriage, leaves it
     – woman has been hospitalized for injuries sustained by abusive husband
     – woman gets injuction
     – woman leaves husband
     – woman returns to the home SHE OWNS to retrieve her belongings
     – woman is attacked by husband while using bathroom after he scans her text messages and photos
     – woman escapes to garage, but can’t exit due to garage malfunction
     – woman retrieves gun from car
     – woman tries to exit home, but confronted by jealous husband (assailant)
     – woman fires warning shot instead of at jealous threatening husband
     – woman denied STG
     – woman charged triply which according to Florida, makes 20 years mandatory
     – woman found guilty and faces 20 years in prison
     – woman neither killed nor injured anyone (shot into ceiling of her own home)
     – zimmerman, after killing an unarmed teen who was committing no crime, was not arrested until massive protest based on his “word” that it was self defense
     – black life taken by Zimmerman
     – no black life taken by Marissa Alexander
     – same State law (SYG) applied to both Zimmerman and Marissa Alexander

     • SYG is a defense, not something to be charged with. I understand Ms Alexander was charged with things like reckless endangerment (someone might have got hurt by the bullet) etc. She must have had a VERY bad lawyer. I read somewhere the court said she should have retreated (which is not so under SYG so that must not have been well presented).

       Very bad lawyer. Which is all that most people can afford, I imagine.

       Being charged though goes back to the same problem we have here with Z not being charged…. the police not looking at the facts and evidence before deciding what action to take. Possibly partly through personal prejudices, whether acknowledged or hidden even from themselves.

     • I apologize for posting this info. Apparently this woman was bonded out and while under bond and told to stay away from her husband, she chose to visit the husband’s new residence and was arrested there as well. Sick relationships. According to the court docs, she got together with the ex (probably a trick she fell for), to sync up their stories.

       This is NOTHING like the Trayvon Martin case where Trayvon Martin was doing nothing against the law. fraudulen or criminal, and he was simply minding his business as he walked home talking on the phone with a girlfriend after escaping a stalker.

       I still feel bad for Marissa Alexander having to spend 20 years of her life for not killing anyone while Zimmerman was only arrested after much, much community, nationwide and wotrldwide protest. It isn’t the same issue because I think Trayvon Martin played no role in his situation.

       Marissa Alexander’s situation is about how ridiculous Florida’s letter of the law is (20 years mandatory for no killing while killing doesn’t warrant an arrest), but Trayvon Martin’s murder was ridiculous and also outside the letter of the law. Zimmerman was the aggressor here.

279. At any point after leaving his vehicle, George Zimmerman could have walked to the nearest home to him and flashed his flashlight to obtain an address. He could have done that while he was on the phone to dispatch if he was interested in providing an actual, valid address to the police. He didn’t.

     • But that means these assholes would continue getting away.

       • The laws in the State of Florida are so mangled they represent a clear and present danger to all who are subject to them. Disney World and other large institutions/corps/businesses, need to join with the public and ask for Federal intervention. Obviously the legislature has lost it. They have lost control of the state due to some inability to understand what they’re doing in pandering to special interest groups for support.

         If not corrected soon, much sooner than waiting for legislative correction portends, the many other “utilities” these mangled laws provide to ill intended contrivance, will soon visit, much to the increasing detriment of the state and threat to the lives of the public.

         The longer this chaotic state of affairs continues, expect the number of incidents to grow. By the time the public gets the message that no one is safe because of this state of confusion, it will be too late to easily turn the tide and all hell will break loose. Such that the Justice Department may soon have to issue advisories against visiting certain states.

         Those businesses that supported ALEC (the American Legislative Exchange Council) have sure done a very good job of rending the very social fabric that ensured their profitable survival. In short, left to their own devices, they’ve proved they will even “cut their own throats” in their mad race for profit. Of course, they will “cut the throats” of everyone else first in the effort.

         Nor is this idle speculation, consider how the growing resentments of the families of victims will play into growing the unrest. As the number of incidents grows, the expected likelihood of obtaining justice fades. How long will it be then, before people start retaliating and taking matters into their own hands?

         Even that “task force on SYG” is only looking at today’s effects of the law, and even then it want’s to exclude certain areas, in the effort to narrow their focus down to where they can somehow find ways to keep this mangled, unmanageable law. When they really need to look up ahead and take a much wider view of a law that hardly anyone, let alone law enforcement can understand. Thus making uniform enforcement all but impossible, given the various sentiments at large in the land.

       • One can only hope that at some time, GZ will be required to explain exactly what he believed TM was “getting away” with or from.

     • Are the addresses on the pathway side or would they be on the street side? I would think that they would be on the street side. Unless GZ claims to have gone all of the way to other side on Retreat View circle. It just doesn’t make sense…

       • @ San San B –

         There are NO *DRIVABLE* STREETS in that community where houses (and house numbers) don’t face front. At the time Zimmerman couldn’t figure out where he was, he had to be at or very near the clubhouse/mailboxes since he was in his vehicle.

       • TO: San San B, Common SenseForChange, and Lonnie Starr:

         You all bring up excellent observations and valid points. Even former New Jersey Police Commander, Walt Zalisko and Chief Lee Found Zimmerman’s story Implausible

         http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Florida+Stand+Your+Ground+complicates+Trayvon+Martin+shooting/6332321/story.html?id=6332321

         http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/v-print/2706876/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html and former SPD Chief Billy Lee agrees with your assessments.

         T.G.

     • Actually, GZ’s statement is that he went looking for a street sign. That means that he went either to the junction of twin trees lane with long oak way, or to the junction of retreat view circle with twin trees lane.

       • I Zimmerman claims he went to Long View/Twin Trees, that would match my view of what I think transpired. He was definitely near one of those back cut-throughs and then ventured over to the doggy path in order for all the evidence to map out.

         Unfortunately, as someone else on this blog has already pointed out, there are only three streets in the entire community. All George needed was a house number which I think are all unique in their numbering sceme for the community.

       • Woops! Typos..

         IF Zimmerman claims he went to Long View/Twin Trees, that would match my view of what I think transpired. He was definitely near one of those back cut-throughs and then ventured over to the doggy path in order for all the evidence to map out.

         Unfortunately, as someone else on this blog has already pointed out, there are only three streets in the entire community. All George needed was a house number which I think are almost all unique in their numbering sceme for the community.

         He needed nothing more than a flashlight to see a house number and never HAD to enter any of the cut-throughs or doggy paths to obtain that. Even if he did have to get a corner street sign, he still wouldn’t have to enter a doggy path or cut-through to obtain that.

         He was on a hunt! (I think we agree! ;–))

         • Here’s a man who has been living in this small three street community for nearly 6 years and patrolling for; how long? Yet, he can’t simply give a house number? Or, even better, just a count of the houses as you come in and turn up that single street. It’s either the first, second, third or fourth house, etc., Is he that incredibly stupid? He doesn’t think the police can count the houses as they come in? He doesn’t know he’ll be in back of these houses? Doesn’t know the street names?

           It’s more believe able that he simply doesn’t want to give his location, because he wants the freedom to mock up a story on the fly, as needed.

           Also, it now sounds like he wasn’t just following TM, but he might very well have chased him? Now there’s one for the NW books, and armed watchman chasing a person suspected of doing nothing but walking around.
           I my opinion if it turns out that GZ or anyone else was chasing TM, then it’s 1st degree murder! Since chasing is an aggressive act!

       • …And he’s says he’s been, not only living, but patrolling in this little community for how long? Exactly why should he have to look for a street sign? Exactly how many streets are there in this community? Hasn’t he ever been here before? Who, exactly is he trying to fool with his claims of confusion?

     • Excellent points from all you guys!

       @Lonnie, thanks for the comment at 12:10 am. It was a very interesting read.

280. Anybody issued a CCW permit that forgets he has it exposes himself and others to danger and should not have been issued the CCW permit. Suppose a child happens upon it?

     Oh yeah, almost forgot, Gilbrath said the claims by Zimmerman that Martin tried to take his gun was another piece of BS that the State has evidence to the contrary. I take this to mean that Trayvon Martin’s fingerprints and dna were not found on Zimmerman’s gun.

     • Actually, I am wondering if TM DNA/blood is on GZ at all. If he was shot in close proximity there has to be trace DNA and blood on the front of GZ clothes at minimum.

       • Unfortunately they allowed GZ to take that evidence home with him when they let him go.

     • CSFC, the prosecution is going after GZ’s inconsistencies since there is no direct eye witness of the minute that lead to the confrontation.

       There is DeeDee though and she said TM was chased through out the community by an unknown man and that ended with what sounded like a confrontation at about 7:16. This is also at that time that 911 calls poured in reporting a scuffle and then a gunshot. So, the defense will have a hard time disputing that GZ is the man who went after TM through out the gated community without implying that DeeDee is lying. They will.

       That leaves the prosecution only few options as there is no other direct witness.
       One of these options is to point to the inconsistencies in GZ’s statements. The prosecutor raised the gun story to make the point that each recorded statements from GZ tell a different story and therefore he is the liar.
       The other option they have is to show that GZ was hunting TM. He had the motivation (assholes always get away). He was equipped with a gun and a couple of flashlights.
       The other option the prosecution has is to point that GZ has a anger management issue associated with history of physical violence. There are a couple of instances that ended up in court which usually means it was bad enough.
       The last option the prosecution has is to point to the fact that GZ’s asshole always got away with his violence by raising the self defense flag. So, TM was just another bad guy as were his former GF and the under cover cop who was actually arresting him.

       Obviously, the term “option” that I used is a bit off since the prosecution will use them all.

       • @tchoupi –

         Me thinks they will use all of what you’ve said and get the conviction.

         – liar (proven)
         – hunting (provable)
         – violation of NW rules (proved)
         – violation of civil rights (provable
         – victim unarmed (proved)
         – victim NOT in process of committing crime (proved)
         – witnesses (absolutely)
         – admission of killing (proved)
         – other ways to assist the police without vigilantism (proved)

         • Add, Need for GZ to engage in his conduct = zilch! His conduct was advised against and prohibited for many reasons that were explained to him in the 14 hour course he took. Everything he did was done of his own volition and was provocative and aggressive.

           Well, at least the forensic analysis of TM’s wound will likely show the path and distance of the shot. However the gun was handled, the bullet leaves it with only so much force and that force declines with distance. Also the way the slug deforms tells a story. I don’t think GZ’s stories are going to stand up to that. Omara know it and will probably stay on to run up his fees, now that there’s money to pay. Then he’ll deftly find a reason to step aside, and let someone else handle the flame out.

       • @Lonnie –

         “Everything he did was done of his own volition and was provocative and aggressive”

         You have a wonderful way with words. To the point!

         You are 100% correct, imo. Zimmerman did what he did using his own free will. It was also after words of wisdom were given to him by the police dispatch saying “we don’t need you to do that”.

281. But we have this:
     ============================
     George Zimmerman’s MySpace Account Claims All Mexicans Are Knife Wielding Thugs
     ============================

     His intimate knowledge of “gangsta rap”, probably explains his version of TM’s last words. I immediately got the impression that he was projecting! Not all black people are even “hip” to gangsta rap, just like not all white people are into Bruce Springsteen etc.

     I’ve also looked at many boards, I assume that many posts I’ve read are by blacks, although I can only be sure of some, because they state so or make other remarks and references that reveal a perspective that only a black person would have. I’ve noted that there isn’t much “gangsta rap” used at all, not even in fun or “weak moments” of high emotion. The only one’s likely to use g.r. are people who are quite clearly performers, or who seem to consider themselves as such. They use g.r. to contrive what they believe are clever statements or poems or other kinds of, what they hope are remarkable literary efforts. But not in general speech.

     I’ve even read “grammar police” correcting “duh bling” to read “Da Bling!”
     LoL.

     • I am not sure that Zimmerman’s myspace pages rise to anything more than annoying readers. I don’t know. What I can gather from what I’ve read is that Zimmerman promotes his “success” by putting down other hispanics, blacks and women.

       In particular, one comment of Zimmerman frames his ex as his “ex-hoe” and gives kudos to whoever loaned him a suit for court to make him look good for court and then he brags that he got off. I also read that he gave kudos to the guys that got arrested that didn’t snitch him out for his part in organizing illegal activities when he called for them to do something to “protect” his sister.

       With friends like Zimmerman, who needs enemies?!

       He seems to have Black “friends” that look like they are possibly co-workers in his illegal, under-the-table, bouncing job. Have they ever visited or communicated outside of work? He seems to also have Black “friends” in the media that also seem to be PR hired guns for money.

       Does Zimmerman only have black friends to use as attack dogs?

       • Yes, yes, and yes again, but… Isn’t this all “highly irregular” for a “law abiding guy”? I mean, here’s a guy on the one hand claiming the highest regard and respect for law and law enforcement, who is posting in a public place, that he’s getting away with crimes undetected, because his co-conspirators are not informing on him. Hardly a view that anyone in any law school would countenance. He’s telling everyone he has no respect for the very law he’s now claiming to respect?!? Yeah, now that he’s on the “working end” of the law… Again!

         The “take away” for a jury will be that GZ has already professed that he has the knowledge, skill and support to circumvent the law when he chooses to do so. And that he has done so before, to obtain an outcome at law, that he wasn’t entitled to. I’m sure a jury will find that very probative, in explaining the tears he will shed before them.

         Or maybe it’s me? Is a law abiding person, really supposed to have that kind of knowledge? Is a law abiding person, respectful of the law, really supposed to make it public knowledge that he has obstructed the law and escaped justice? Is it really respectful of law enforcement, to brag that you have friends who are not only unwilling to abide by the law, but willing to conceal criminal activity on your behalf?

         I could be wrong about this, but I doubt it!

282. The orlando sentinel is quoting a source that is actually confirming that GZ stated that TM was circling the truck before he got off the phone with the dispatcher as a part of his statement to the police. Who would be on the phone with the cops, yet leave something so important out?

     • He was on the phone with a dispatcher, not a cop. If you listen to that 911 call there are moments there where Zimmerman appears to be very nervous. Zimmerman states something is wrong with him, he’s just staring at me, he’s checking me out. He is says in a very nervous voice, get someone over here. I think that the dispatcher picked up on the fact that Zimmerman was nervous because the dispatcher says let us know if this guy does anything else. You can tell that something was going on other than Trayvon causally walking by Zimmerman’s truck.

       • That’s a reach. A nervous person stays in their car. Especially during a rain storm.

       • Trayvon may not have even casually walked by George’s truck, instead he was going toward it in that general direction from the clubhouse, looked across the street at the vehicle, hesitated and then turned south on Twin Trees toward his home. George initiated the call to dispatch to report what he thought was a suspicious character, so ofcourse he had to embellish his conversation to get the cops over there asap. Just saying.

       • The key being “let us know if this guy does anything else”…

       • @”No Longer Mass Emailing” On the flip side of that same coin, since Trayvon was supposed to be in fear of his lfe; and given the the time involved why didn’t Trayvon go home, he was just a few feet away.

         • That is not the flip side. At all. Trayvon was the prey not the hunter.

           • Right you are NLME. A person in fear for their life can do many things we can’t understand. TM knows his father isn’t at home, if he goes there and is followed, what does he do then? What if he can’t get in the house easily, because he has to wait for the door to be opened? And there’s something to be made of that chase that might have occurred, we don’t know what that was about, but it may also be a reason he couldn’t get home.

             So, that question can only be answered with speculation. Meanwhile there are other, more important questions, that can be answered with facts!
             Like, “Was GZ within his rights to pursue TM”?
             Well, if he were just an ordinary person, on his way to the store like he claimed, and he had witnessed an actual crime, then hell yes!
             But, if he was a neighborhood watcher, who had witnessed no crime, but who only deemed TM to look suspicious, then no, not at all, and especially not with a firearm.

             GZ indicates that he is fearful of TM, long before he starts his pursuit on foot. So then, how does he follow this dangerous person, into a dark area, forgetting that he, himself is carrying a deadly weapon? That deadly weapon is licensed for carry, to protect the user in dangerous situations. So, how does he ever forget he has it, while putting himself in danger?

             If you’re following someone you think is a dangerous criminal, who may very well be armed (“He’s putting his hands in his waistband”), are you really going to turn your back as you make your way back to your car? Or would you be wary, not knowing where the dangerous person had gone and continue to watch in all possible directions? If you were really all that frightened, you probably drew your weapon before you even started to follow the suspect into a darkened area. With a weapon in your hand, there’s probably not going to be any fight. There might be shouting and/or arguing, until the unarmed person realizes you’re going to shoot him.

             So there’s a lot here that doesn’t make sense, at least, not from the perspective that GZ was not the aggressor. Oh yes, before I forget.
             I noticed that someone said that GZ had grass debris on his jacket. But the photo of the back of his head shows no grass debris clinging to the very sticky blood there. So, besides the blood on the back of GZ’s head, there should be very visible debris from the grass clinging there, if his head had been rolled in the grass.

       • When the mother heard the 911 tape at the same time, she was as heartbroken as he.

         Is this the mother that never left her home to come to Sanford after hearing of her son’s death.

       • Nola, Using that same rationale…Trayvon didn’t say he was scared Zimmerman did. Why would he get out of the safety of a car if he was scared?

       • @Nola, Shortly after Trayvon’s father had first spoken with the SPD he was not satisfied with their report, so was it necessary for the mother to deal with them? It was then the family saw the need to contact an attorney for professional advice.

         @Gmac, Maybe because Dee Dee’s testimony was NOT PUBLICLY announced by the media until three weeks later, She was obviously contacted by the family and/or their attorney and gave her account of the phone conversation with Trayvon before it became public. The FBI was later called in and she gave her testimony to them.

         Just filling in the gaps.

     • I think Zimmerman just enhances his “stories” to add more drama and paint himself as the victim. It seems to be a pattern by his family as well. Some people are just into telling tales.

     • @Nola –

       Trayvon’s mom is not who you think she is. She is the woman that got Sanford PD to investigate the murder of her son. She is of little means but still mustered the where with all to bury her son in Miami with a respectable funeral, so I don’t get your point.

       • yes i agree, and the dignity she has shown in such a heart shredding time is incredible. Any way, what could she have done, she couldn’t bring him back or change what happened. If that happened to my child i would be in the fetal position. She is strong and brave and so is Tracy

283. NLME –

     Is there a way to upload a map to your blog? I did a google map using the points I’m particularly trying to discuss. Google’s timings are similar to yours, but go all the way down Twin Trees to entry to the doggy path at a point past Long Oak and from Retreat View Circle. The timings to walk/run mix take 3-4 minutes.

     From 2:14 minutes into the dispatch call with Zimmerman, you hear his door chimes indicating he left his car. That would mean this occurred at 7:11:49 if the call started at 7:09:34. Add the 3-4 minutes it would take to continue walking towards the doggie path nearest Long Oak and Retreat View Circle (near the back gate/near Brandy Green’s home where Trayvon Martin was staying) and you get 7:15:49 – 7:16:49.

     The calls started at 7:16ish. I could see how Zimmerman could have approached near Trayvon’s home at around 7:15ish or so and chased him back down to the opposite end of the doggie path Tee for witnesses to hear and start calling at around 7:16ish. One-to-1-1/2 minutes is all I’ve ever seen as unaccountable.

     • For sure! Feel free to email your map to thelist@bcclist.com and I’ll review/post it.

     • That’s also what I think happened.
       TM ran south on TTL then turned right to the back path along the pond for hiding. He went on walking back north on that path maybe thinking GZ would just keep on chasing him south.
       In the mean time GZ went down TTL toward LOW. While on the phone with police he realizes he lost TM and decides to go back toward his car to wait for police. This is when in the distance he notices TM crossing TTL at the cut through going east toward. Hence the sudden change of plan and his request for the Police Officer to call him at arrival.
       Rather than rushing north to catch up with TM, he decides to go through one of the unpaved cuts between building so he can keep an eye on TM. He therefore notices that TM is walking toward him on the back path between the two rows of building. So, he goes into hiding waiting for for TM to get closer. That eventually happen. TM is forced to turn back. He tells DeeDee that he has been cornered.
       TM is pissed off with that guy stalking him. He refuses to run, walks fast and when nearing the north T, GZ finally catches up with him. The argument starts, then the scuffle and the gun shot…
       That scenario can pretty well account for the 2.5min between the end of GZ’s call and the beginning of the scuffle as TM has to walk south for a good portion of the back path and then rush back north.
       It may also account for GZ’s account stating that TM was circling his truck while TM may have just been cautious checking no one was in it.

       • If only Zimmerman was back in his parked vehicle waiting for the police to do their job. Instead he continue to harass, hunt, and prey upon an unarmed teenager.

       • I better understand what you were saying now. In my scenario, TM heads down the T on the doggie path/sidewalk towards his home. Zimmerman heads up Twin Trees and possibly stopping off at John’s home to knock on his door. I finally see what you’re saying. I suppose that’s the way it could have happened also. Your scenario probably takes a tiny bit more time. Could be, though. I like the way you think! That’s an alternative route I hadn’t thought of and it could be just what happened.

         I don’t think Trayvon Martin circled Zimmerman’s car at any time, though. I think that was entirely made up by Zimmerman to “enhance” the drama of his story.

     • I suppose if Chad Green had heard any knocking on his back door that night, it would have made big news.

       • Totally agree.

       • I wonder if Chad Green was in the house that night. We saw one interview where he said about 2 words.

284. CommonSense, that is starting to sound like my view of it, too. It wasn’t up & down here & there round & round along the T path. It was down one way, around the bend , and back up again. That fits all the timings, and in particular the witness statement about the shadows.

     NLME’s third map has the distances nicely marked up, too. Some blogs make out the shooting was “just below” the T. If it was at John’s back door, that is at least 25 yards south of the T as his is the second house.

     • Exactly! Trayvon thinks he’s lost the guy and Zimmerman is headed toward the back gate, see Trayvon again and the chase is on again!

285. Everyone is assuming it all happened at the top of the path, from Z’s claims to police (which we only have third-hand).

     It will be interesting in the trial, to find out how the re-enactments went. And how the timing of them will fit in with the actual times. If it turns out that version could not be true, he’s toast.

286. CommonSense, I too don’t think TM circled GZ’s truck. I just rely on the concept that liars usually base their stories on fractional facts. In this case, seeing, from the south of TTL, the tall and slender shadow of TM crossing TTL by his truck at the cut through becomes TM circling his truck. BTW, there is a street light at the cut through that made it possible to see TM’s shadow from the distance.

     Personally, I really would keep John off the story for the reason’s I explained above. He was on the phone with 911 dispatcher and described the same scene as the Teacher at the same moment. He also saw Flashlight guy coming toward GZ 1min after the gun shot exactly at the same moment as the teacher. Finally, if GZ was knocking doors on TTL, he would have used door bells. My guess is that modern houses have door bells.

     I don’t know what the tapping noise is. I think I have identified 3 periods of tappings. This is also the # of side paths between buildings when going south on TTL from the the cut through. I made that hypothesis that GZ was trying to dislodge TM from possible hide outs by making noise, using is flashlight and trying to sound/look scary. Those unpaved paths are obvious places TM could have hide. In this case, GZ would have jogged south on TTL, check the 1st cut on the east side, then the 2nd one on the west side further south, and finally the 3rd on the east side further south again. Each time, he may have knocked his flashlight on something to make a noise thinking that would scare the Fucking Punk out of his hiding place. He may have walked further down to the junction with LOW before giving up chasing TM. He then turned back toward his truck while agreeing with dispatcher on a meeting place. Then he sees TM walking the cut through eastward. He suddenly interrupts the dispatcher to tell him that he basically won’t be at the mailboxes and that he has no idea concerning his whereabouts in the coming minutes.

     Concerning Flashlight guy, the person I envision is Jeremy (1211 TTL). He was upstairs with his GF and he was kind of scarelessly looking from the balcony. We can hear Jennifer calling him out multiple times while she is on the phone with 911. She was sacred as all the 911 callers that night. I’m particularly looking for a person that was not scared or not as scared as the 911 callers. Jeremy was taking a risk watching the scuffle from his balcony. 1211 TTL is a end-of-block house and enjoys a balcony at the back. The view on the crime scene must have been one of the bests. I bet you that he either identified GZ assuming they are friends or that he concluded that this guy (GZ) may not be much of a threat since he was not running away. Moreover, Jennifer’s 911 call ends very early as it started very early (this is the call that captured the crying). Jeremy could have rushed outside just after the end of his GF’s 911 call to help GZ. Finally, the time between GZ’s head picture and Officer T. Smith arrival is so short (~30sec) that I can’t help thinking Flashlight man really lives near.

     We’re getting to a scenario that is consistent with everything we know from the 911 calls and witness statements and timing and police report.

     • Well said and while the chase/confrontation leading up to the fatal shot is irrelevant, my interest in said events has finally piqued.

       • We need to be careful about third-hand “evidence”, especially coming from people with some reason to smear the facts.

         Even innocently, it can become a game of Chinese Whispers.

         Someone says “he went around my car” (as in, to avoid walking into it), by the third re-telling can become around as in full circle, then “circling” which implies right around more than once.

         If Z was parked facing east on Twin Trees, as I believe he had to have been, M on his way from the clubhouse would have had to go-around-to-avoid, sure.

         Z apparently told police (3rd hand to us) he was going back to his car when he got jumped. Some people with no knowledge of verb tenses apparently think “going back” and “went back” mean the same thing. They don’t. “Was going” is heading that way. “Went” is the completed action of gettng there. So I’ve seen it said that he was getting into the vehicle when he got jumped.

         The only approach we heard for ourselves is the “coming over to check me out”.

         Odd though that this recently surfaced “circling” is associated with his rolling his window up in response. Dad said ages ago he rolled the window up after saying “I am not following you”. So did this “circling” grow out of the “check me out”?

         I think if this happened at all it would have been there, early on, near the mailboxes. Just as likely he invented that upon being asked “Why are you following me” ON THE PATH, if he realised M is on the phone and could have been heard saying that. Just say it happened somewhere else, that suits him better……….

         Same with the screaming. for help. Certainly someone would have heard it. Just say it was ME……

         Yep, Tchoupi, you are right about “fractional facts”.

         Oh and that having to look for a street sign. I live 12,000 miles away and can draw a map of the estate with my eyes shut. Street names included. (George should have spent more time on the internet and less watching Westerns 😉 ).

         @ NMLE sorry, we seem to be hijacking your blog here. But isn’t how they GOT to the shooting spot terribly relevant? didn’t you start this to map out why M could not have doubled back? all we’re doing is extending the routes taken, to better account for the known time-line.

         • Hijack away!

           My intention is starting this blog posting – way before all of Zimmerman’s now apparent lies – was to figure out if his story of being attacked while simply returning to his vehicle after the 911 call ended was true. Per the “research” we’ve done, that story has turned out to be unequivocally false as Zimmerman continued to stalk, harass, and hunt the unarmed teen for minutes before the confrontation began. Once this was confirmed, Stand Your Ground gets thrown out the window.

           Do y’all think I should start a new blog posting when the pre-trial/trial starts? I have ADHD like a mofo and would never read a blog posting with so many updates/comments (though it has become a kick ass blog posting).

           • By all means, just make sure we all get notice. And link that blog back to this, so we can use it as a library of sorts. Hey, maybe you should set up a library? A place where only official documents and other factual documents can be referenced? Maps, news articles, police reports, statements, such and the like, without having to wade through all these posts to find them.

             Just a few ideas.

             It’s going to be one hell of a trial, IF GZ decides to fight. They’ve gone so quiet now, I suspect that the SP has probably found and hinted at some link to earlier messages GZ and his crew may have engaged in around the time of the shooting and before. That would be too damning for words! For example, how would they cast GZ wounds, if it were learned that the guy who took the picture was texting with GZ before and/or during these events?

             Also, most people don’t realize that text messages like emails, are stored on servers until they are sent onwards. These servers are so huge that it takes months before old messages are overwritten. Then can be retrieved by IT experts many months later using software designed for the purpose.

             But, my guess is, if it is true that GZ was in touch with others who have some connection with this case, he’d realize he’s in very serious trouble now, and very likely going to prison for life. In which case his only option is to hope for a deal of some kind. He and his lawyer would realize that, they can’t get the best deal, if GZ keeps shooting off his mouth about his innocence. So stay tuned.

       • NMLE,

         A new blog would be a good idea.

         In any case, Thanks for your blog. That was a great idea and a perfectly well managed blog. I fully realize the work load you put on yourself.

         I agree with you that the main point is that George Zimmerman lied and therefore, reconstructing the exact chain of events isn’t necessary. You just have to show that there is no way on earth GZ would have ended up killing TM where he did as he were just looking for an address and going back to his truck.

         • No, thank you! I appreciate everything you have contributed. In fact, I likely wouldn’t have had the attention span to add more than my original map if this posting wasn’t so engaging.

           I’ll be drafting a new blog posting – and will post a link throughout the comments – once the court proceedings pick up.

       • I have really enjoyed your blog. Many thanks for all the good information.

       • I agree with Lonnie. My only concern was having to link between two documents for the information, but I know it would be a lot of work for NLME either way.

         I open the blog and simply search for the date to keep up now. Every so often, someone will bring up something in a post for that day and it makes me go back and look at other keywords or phrases. I find one blog, long or not, more efficient, but I do understand ADHD and I do understand the frustration of managing a long blog.

     • “Concerning Flashlight guy, the person I envision is Jeremy (1211 TTL). He was upstairs with his GF and he was kind of scarelessly looking from the balcony. We can hear Jennifer calling him out multiple times while she is on the phone with 911. ”

       I think you’re 100% correct. That clears up a lot for me. I had the impression that Jeremy was a child and two adults were on the phone, but after your comments, I listened to the call again. The other adult voice must be Jeremy — balcony with a view! I agree that he probably snapped the picture, too. He could have done that from his balcony or from downstairs.

     • a new blog post would be great. And thanks for a job well done, lots of intelligent discussion here.

287. You may want to blog about the media coverage of this. Why are the Martins going to London? Why is it necessary for Zimmerman to be in hiding. What are the media doing with him? Who are the big guns in this?

288. tchoupi.caillou’s scenario where GZ is banging his flashlight between each building is interesting. As we develop scenarios, I like how more of the pieces fall into place. Not saying we have it down pat, but I think we are getting closer.

     NLME, a new blog would be terrific. I’ve noticed my computer is working harder and harder as this one grows. The growth and duration is a testament to your handling of the contributors, especially the negative ones. And we have some very sharp contributors here as well.

     • That or is it something in the dispatch office?

289. I find it strange that we still can’t confirm what kind of truck GZ owns. If there is no street parking, that white Ford is a very likely candidate.

     It’s possible that Google map shot was taken on Feb 27.

290. I read a comment that NMLE couldn’t believe people were questioning DeeDee’s statement. That isn’t hard to believe, it doesn’t fit with the proveable evidence. First when the fateful call was placed was after TM had already ran and lost GZ. Why would TM tell her no I will just walk fast? Second the stalking/following the way DeeDee stated is impossible because if you listen to GZ’s call he was not walking fast/jogging, no wind resistance. Those 2 inconisistencies along with how\when the statement was taken\released make me cast the whole statement in doubt. I don’t see how her testimony won’t be destroyed in court, and from what it appears the state has this case will be dismissed at the preliminary trial.

     This is what bothers me if this does come to pass. White people are racist because a white person wasn’t charged with a crime against a black person. However if it comes to pass that it had nothing to do with race and they smeared an innocent person because they didn’t like what happened will the perpetrators be charged with anything. They should be held accountable for playing the race card but I am sure they won’t be.

     • You didn’t hear the wind interference in Zimmerman’s call? Everybody else did. Go to the point that his truck door closes.

       There is a gap after Zimmerman’s call ends and before the lethal shot occurs. This is when Zimmerman should have been returning to his street parked vehicle instead of stalking an unarmed teen.

       • I heard the wind interferrence. It was before DeeDee’s call. During the 90 seconds or so that the calls were both active there was no wind interference and GZ had no idea where TM was. Which means that her statement is very questionable at best and an absolute lie most likely.

         • You never know.

       • The fact that the confrontation took place as close to Zimmerman’s truck as it did still suggest that he was in fact returning to his truck when Trayvon approached him and asked him why was he following him. Just because Zimmerman didn’t return to his truck within your time frame doesn’t mean that he wasn’t returning to his truck. I think that Trayvon ran down the sidewalk behind the two townhouses and Zimmeman followed him down that sidewalk. I think that Zimmerman ran down that sidewalk for about 200ft before the dispatcher said we don’t need you to do that. After ending his call with the 911 dispatcher, as the nightwatch person he may have looked around to see if there were any doors that appeared to be forcible opened as well as windows. He may have went over to Retreat Circle to see if any vehicles was being loaded with residents property. Zimmerman had already noted that Trayvon had ran, so he could have observed the area for any signs of breakins before heading back toward his truck after all he was the night watch person and a reasonable person under the circumstances would have observed the areas for anything unusual. Just how much time were there from the end of the 911 call at 7:13:41 and the time that Zimmerman and Trayvon came face to face with each other. The girlfriend’s call started at 7:12 and lasted for 4 minutes ending at 7:16 which could have actually ended at 7:15:01. The girlfriend has stated that she overheard some of the conversation prior to the phone going dead. Based on how mobile phone carriers bill, that call could have ended as early as 7:15:01 and still be considered a 4 minute call.
         The first 911 call came in at 7:16:11; the problem is no one knows how long Zimmerman and Trayvon were interacting with each other before, 1) the called ended witht he girlfriend, 2) the first 911 called was made. A lot of people are assuming that there were all of this time from the end of the
         911call with the dispatcher and the first 911 call from the first neighbor and instead of Zimmerman returning to his truck that he was stalking Trayvon, in fact the confrontation could have occurred with in seconds of ending the 911 call with the confrontation escalated over 60-90 seconds.
         For those who want to assume that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon doing the last 90 seconds that he was on the phone with the dispatcher has no proof of that, after Zimmerman’s voice returned to normal and we can no longer hear the wind in the phone, Mr. Zimmerman could have stopped and finished his call with the dispatcher. He could have been catching his breathe because he had just had the quick 30 seconds run following Trayvon. Zimmerman could have stood still and finish his conversation with the 911 dispatcher, turned and headed back toward his truck and with seconds Trayvon could have approached him and they argued and fought. NO ONE KNOWS HOW SOON TRAYVON AND ZIMMERMAN CAME FACE TO FACE AFTER THE 911 CALL ENDED.

       • Nola (replying here as no reply link on your comment)

         Your GZ must have thought TM is some kind of miracle kid, if after losing sight of him for 90 seconds he thinks it’s worth checking if he’s broken any doors or is loading a vehicle with stolen goods. WOW all that work in 90 seconds, must be one fast kid.

         Of course he may have ducked behind a bush to relieve himself, or sat down to have a cigarette, or gone for a short trip on a flying saucer.

         But he DID NOT. In his own statement, after he stopped chasing (when he said ok to the dispatcher) he did not stand still or wander around checking things out. He went through to the other street (Retreat View) to look for a house number, then started heading back to his truck.

         Then he “got jumped from behind”. This is on the east-west path. Strangely somehow they both ended up 20 yards down the other part. Must have been one might blow to his nose to send him flying that far.

         Or, oh, shock horror, maybe he’s not telling the whole truth?

         On the timing of DeeDee’s call, the confrontation started a 7.15 or a fraction later. It had been going on for some time before the first witness made a 911 call at 7.16. GZ hung up a bit before 7.14 so there’s a full minute gap there. And close to 2 minutes from his “ok” to hanging up.

         Don’t forget he only sounds like running for 25 seconds, then the dispatcher says no need, he says ok, and his breathing calms, indicating he’s no longer running. No matter where he ended up in that 25 seconds, in the 180 seconds from saying “ok” to the confrontation, he could have been back to his truck crawling on his hands and knees….. if that is where he was really headed.

         Instead, he ended up arguing, wrestling then shooting TM dead less than 60 yards from where he’d have “lost him” THREE MINUTES EARLIER.

         That’s not my time-frame. That’s the time-frame he told everyone. “Heading back to the truck” not “planning to pick up the truck sometime before midnight”. So his own story does not add up. If it were correct, in that time he could have been back inside his own garage.

       • Nola from your detailed account of what GZ could have looked for, I almost thought that it was good burglar hours. First, it was a Sunday at ~7:15 pm. Most burglaries happen weekdays during the day or during the day on Saturday, when no one is home. Second, if TM is on foot walking through the area, he isn’t also loading goods into trucks… That would be a separate robbery. Lastly, If he is already being followed, he isn’t likely climbing into anyone’s window. I would like to hypothesize about what TM was doing, but everyone seems to think that he shouldn’t have been outside. Apparently, we should all lock ourselves in our houses, because only people like GZ has any business being on the street, sidewalks or backyards. Absurd? Yes. This kid was in his backyard literally, he should have been safe and maybe HE thought that he was. Also, he wasn’t a thief, so too bad for GZ. Even if he gets off with the state, he will still have to deal with the Federal side of things. I am very sure technology will catch up soon to allow voice recognition.

       • @gmac, I agree with you about DeeDee’s statement any how true that statement is. I wondered how could someone be on the telephone with someone, and that someone tells you how afraid he is of the strange person who is following him and then you over hear a confrontation between the person you are speaking with and the strange person, and yet you don’t care enough to tell anyone about what you heard, even after you learn that the person is dead you still don’t say anything about what you heard. So this is what I think happened, GZ stated at 7:11:42 that Trayvon was running. GZ exited his car and followed Trayvon for about 26 seconds. So somewhere around 7:12:08 Zimmerman was no longer following Trayvon and he tells the dispatcher “he ran”, indicating that he could no longer see Trayvon. Trayvon ran home or he was hiding, during this time DeeDee call came in at 7:12PM which could have been as late as 7:12:59PM. The phone records shows that the call lasted for 4 minutes. So Trayvon talked on the phone with DeeDee up until 7:15:01 and he tells her he will talk with her later. A call starting at 7:12:59 ending at 7:15:01 will be charged for a 4 minute call. A call starting at 7:12:59 will show on a bill as starting at 7:12. that same call could end at 7:15:01 and show a 4 minute call. During this conversation Trayvon does not say anything to DeeDee about the fact that someone had been following him. Trayvon gets off of the phone with DeeDee around 7:15:01 and out off curiority he goes back to check this dude out. He comes up on Zimmerman around 7:15:31 (30 seconds later) and asked him why are you following him? They talked briefly, they started arguing and around 7:16:11 (40 seconds later) the first 911 call comes in from a neighbor. While Deedee was on the phone with Trayvon that night it is highly possible that the call was no more than 2 minutes and not four minutes. The reason why I think that DeeDee didn’t call 911 or tell her mother about what she had been told by Trayvon as well as what she was supposed to have heard; was because she knew nothing because she was not on the phone when Trayvon confronted Zimmerman and because Trayvon told her nothing about being followed. She said nothing because she knew nothing. The Martins and Crump knew that they needed something to poke a huge hole in Zimmerman statement. Once they realized that Trayvon was on the phone within minutes of being killed, they took what they had, Zimmerman statement and they came up with a story, and pulled DeeDee with an offer and DeeDee and her mother was for hire.

       • @ Nola and GMAC –

         I cannot think of a reason for Trayvon Martin to hide if he felt he’d lost the stalker already. DeeDee and Zimmerman both say Zimmerman had lost track of Trayvon Martin. Suppose you look at Trayvon Martin’s actions as non-nefarious.

         Of course you both realize that in order for Trayvon Martin to first run (which is undisputed) and then hide, it would mean George Zimmerman was actively pursuing him and that Trayvon Martin was aware of it and felt threatened, right?

       • @ Nola and Gmac

         we’ve been through the DeeDee call before about 50 posts up.
         1) she would not know TM’s exact location — can hardly ring the police with “my b/f is in Orlando somewhere with someone following him” can she?
         2) when she found out he was SHOT DEAD and the shooter was still at the scene, she would EXPECT HIM TO GET ARRESTED, so no need for her evidence at all.
         3) what she heard only becomes an important issue when it the killer is getting away with it, because he’s told his side of the story and the dead kid could not….and she has at least part of his story to be able to tell it on his behalf.

         There was a murder solved in my city which looked like a faked suicide — the witnesses did not come forward for TWO YEARS, because the day after they heard the dead woman’s boyfriend threatening her, they went on holidays and didn’t know she was dead. Their fault to delay? no… they didn’t know that what they knew was relevant, until they saw it on an Unsolved Mysteries TV show.

         DeeDee had no reason to think her last talk with Trayvon was relevant, until it became obvious the shooter was not being arrested.

         Simple.

         No need to look for malice and conspiracy in everything.

         Why are you so keen to dismiss the DeeDee call, yet make complex excuses for GZ of what he might have been doing (when he himself said otherwise?)

         ohhh… I get it, you don’t believe either phone call. OK then, better start dismissing what all the 911 callers said, too. Who knows what private reasons they may have had to make false calls? all at the same time too (must be in it together, huh?).

         Oh wait, maybe the police faked them all. You weren’t in the call centre to hear those calls actually coming in, so how can you be sure?

         Neither of you were at the shooting either, as far as I know. So if you don’t want to wait for the trial to find out, why not try piecing it together from the words of those were WERE THERE?

         • Well said.

       • no wonder there was so much crime in the neighbourhood. Neighbourhood watch were too busy following people for walking down the street which left the real criminals free to do what they please.

       • Aussie if you look at my posts I have not suggested alternatives. I do have a scenario that can easily fit GZ’s timeline without leaving the T area until he is confronted by TM if you want I will share. As far as DeeDee’s call I do not believe her. The first problem is that she REFUSED to give a sworn statement until after the grand jury was bypassed. The second issue is the timing of the statements release. It was realeased about 4-5 days after the 911 calls were released. This would give Crump ample time to develop the narrative they wanted to use based on the calls, all they needed to find was someone to deliver it. They don’t want DeeDee to testify but she will have to if they continue the stalking narrative.

         Simply put I have pushed that without the stalking narrative GZ’s claim of self-defense is supported by the evidence and his statement’s. So the prosecution MUST prove DeeDee’s narrative. I was merely pointing out the issues/inconsistancies that will discredit her. No malice or conspiracy, just using the facts we have.

         • How old is Dee Dee? My unconceived child would be out of sight if it was in the same position as Dee Dee.

       • “My unconceived child would be out of sight if it was in the same position as Dee Dee.”

         Ah, I see, DeeDee isn’t conceived yet. That would explain why she couldn’t give a sworn statement.

         • I was saying I am childless.

     • BTW. There is no race card. That statement is made up by people who are uncomfortable with the idea of race being brought up in discussion. Usually, it is by the same people who say, “How can we not profile?”. Well you can’t have it both way. Either we are different and treated differently or different, yet treated equal… Clearly, muslim are recognized on a plane or a subway. Perhaps you even feel uncomfortable. Profiling by itself, isn’t a crime unless acted upon criminally using only the profiled information. Racism is when you use a person’s race to dehumanize, harm or infringe upon that person’s rights. Racism isn’t when race becomes a topic of discussion and you feel uncomfortable. Sigh.

       • Well said. As I read elsewhere in the news, if it’s not considered racism when we’re still talking about Natalie Woods death/murder, why is it considered racist for the news to report on an open case against Trayvon Martin? It really does seem more like people still aren’t comfortable talking about any issue when race also needs to be a part of the discussion.

       • Oh there is a race card, figuratively speaking. Bringing race into an issue that wasn’t decided by race because you disagree with the outcome is how it is played. How has the fact that Zimmerman was a white hispanic and that Trayvon was black changed anything? All it has done is split loyalties along racial lines and drive an innocent (innocent until PROVEN guilty) person into hiding.

         BTW profiling is done everyday by every person. Some of it is racially motivated and some of it is motivated by other factors that we have learned since we were little. So even if racism is eliminated, profiling will never be.

         I did not feel uncomfortable because race was interjected in the discussion. I have a multiracial family and don’t have a problem discussing race. The trick is to realize when someone is using race to gain an advantage(Racism), not as a description(Profiling).

     • Gmac, quite often a charged person is found innocent by the court. That doesn’t mean there was something nefarious about charging them.

       The original issue here was that an innocent black kid had been killed by a non-black person (just to avoid the silly arguments about black/white) and the police had taken his word that it was self-defence, even though at least one of them believed his story didn’t add up.

       Also many people are convinced that had the shooter been black and/or the victim white, he would have been charged immediately. This is based on everyone’s experience. That is not them being racist, that is them believing most of the police are, or in this case they were playing favourites because they knew the shooter (the Sanford police have a record for both).

       Some other blogs are smearing GZ, some are smearing TM. Some even suggest he deserved to be shot because he was “”probably a rapist” (based on speculation of what if his 14 year old girlfriend is pregnant) and definitely a thug and drug dealer etc etc.

       There’s a lot of stupidity about this case, and a shocking amount of mindless hate. This blog is one of the few FACTUAL ones. Nobody here tried to smear GZ, we just tried to work out if his story, what we know of it, adds up or not.

       About DeeDee’s call (and she called him) — when TM says he lost the guy, that is around when GZ stops running (going on call times and GZ’s tape showing his breathing go back to normal). The call with DeeDee continues for over another minute, during which time GZ hangs up the call with the police…. and clearly, from the timings and possible locations, was NOT anywhere near back to his vehicle.

       If anything, DeeDee’s call confirms GZ’s, up to the point of the two men losing sight of each other. The altercation started some 60 seconds after GZ hung up his call, TM was still on his…based NOT on DeeDee’s claims but on the phone company records of when the call ended.

       • @Aussie –

         I also thought there were multiple calls and the teenaged DeeDee may not have been as clear on what was said on which call, but the content of the calls taken as a whole was what is the evidence.

         “If anything, DeeDee’s call confirms GZ’s, up to the point of the two men losing sight of each other.”

         Exactly!

     • @aussie, you have your fact less opinions regarding this case and so do I. Zimmerman had no way of knowing whether Trayvon was working along. WOW he could have thought that there was a U-Haul on the back street being loaded by a gang of teenagers. I think that it would be reasonable for a night watch person who had just lost site of a person who had just taken off running to look around to check to make sure everything was alright. Now that[s what I would want my night watch person to do who had spotted someone in my gated community, who was standing around in the rain in the dark and who had taken off running. Has it ever occurred to you that Zimmerman may have went to Retreat Circle to get a house number, the question is what path did he take over to Retreat Circle. When Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Trayvon was running toward the back entrance, could it not be possible that Trayvon turn right at the T in the side walk and ran down toward the back entrance of the gated community. The back entrance is located toward the south of the community, but some are saying that the back entrance is located due east of the T in the sidewalk and since Ms. Green’s townhouse was located down that sidewalk, it would make sense for Trayvon who is so afraid to take the closest route home. So if Zimmerman saw Trayvon run to the T turn right and run toward the back entrance, it would make sense for Zimmerman to follow Trayvon’s path. Zimmerman exits his truck and follows Trayvon for 26 seconds. Let’s say Zimmerman ran for about 260 ft in those 26 seconds to the T down the sidewalk taking the same path as Trayvon. I would say that when Zimmerman said ok to the dispatcher he would have reached the first unpaved cut through between building 1 and 2 that faced Retreat Circle. Zimmerman can’t see the addresses because he is on the sidewalk that runs behind the townhouses, go he takes the first unpaved cut through that leads to Retreat Circle, where he looks at the addresses. He turns and comes back through the unpaved cut through and heads back up the sidewalk towards the T, just as he gets to the T Trayvon comes up from behind him and asked him why he was following him. Unless you have information from Zimmerman stating which path Trayvon took and whether he followed Trayvon down that same path your opinions regarding who, what, when, where and how is speculation just like mine.

       • It was not ok for Zimmerman to stalk and harass the unarmed team.

       • “I think that it would be reasonable for a night watch person who had just lost site of a person who had just taken off running to look around to check to make sure everything was alright. Now that[s what I would want my night watch person to do who had spotted someone in my gated community, who was standing around in the rain in the dark and who had taken off running. ”

         Was the “night watch” person trained or paid or governed by HOA policy? I thought Zimmerman was a volunteer neighborhood “watch” person for an unregistered NW team. Either way, I’m not sure the HOA would agree that the free police/security protections you “want” from a “watch” person is reasonable. Certainly, activities and services such as those you would “want” would require a vote of the homeowners, yes?

       • Gmac, that route would cover the times quite well.

         But there was no need for him to look for a number, in the first place:

         * 2 years there, he should have a good idea in his head about the streets and numbers
         * what’s the point of getting a house number when he has no intention of being there when the police arrive? he left that spot and headed back towards his truck
         * the police only asked where his truck is parked at … all he had to say was “you’ll see it as soon as you reach the mailboxes, the white Ford” … certainly an address halfway down Retreat Circle wasn’t going to help them any.

         But even if he felt he had to look at a house number….in the time taken to get back on the path, TM would be home even if he has to go around the block to the front.

         Why would he be still at or near that cut-through? he can’t be waiting for a chance to jump GZ as he’d not see him go through (GZ couldn’t see him, so he’d not see GZ) and have no idea he’d be coming back that way. Plus that would put GZ behind TM and then heading north away from him……….so no reason for TM to ask why he’s following him…. a silly question to ask someone who’s walking away from you.

         TM’s only response to the initial following was to run (on GZ’s own statement). Why would he suddenly change into attack mode? Whereas GZ’s initial response to seeing TM was to start following him. Why would HE suddenly change into walk-away mode?

         Do you see our problem here? if they both continued with the behaviour we DO know about, it had to be GZ following TM. And we DO know, his agreement to stop following notwithstanding, GZ did not return immediately to his vehicle.

         He took more than 2 minutes’ worth of assorted detours (whether by your proposed route or one of the others) for the flimsiest of useless excuse about looking for a meaningless address. So he stopped chasing, he didn’t stop LOOKING at a slower pace.

         Forget about U-Hauls and other teens. If GZ had looked around for anything like that, he’d be perfectly within his rights to do so, and nothing to stop him SAYING SO to the police. BUT he said nothing of the sort. He said he spent the time looking for a street sign/address, then headed for his truck and then got jumped.

         If he’d gone straight back to his truck, TM would not have been able to see him or catch up with him, even in the unlikely event he decides to follow and attack, when he’s just managed to escape.

         If you want to speculate on things that are not in evidence, why don’t you tackle the problem of why TM would want to do that? Something a bit more serious than “who knows why a teen does anything”.

       • Aussie so you remember exactly where you are at night in a development with identical houses? I see nothing nefarious in looking for a house number so you know where you are when the police call you back. Once you have reoriented yourself it is no problem to know where you are while heading back. The path reported by GZ was across the top of the T. So if he went across the top and looked toward the back entrance he could have walked down to the top house stayed and looked for a short time. Then while walking back to his truck TM approaches him from the south and starts yelling at him. GZ knows that he cannot outrun TM so he turns and heads south (his left rear). They meet somewhere near where the fight happend and start jawwing at each other. Not sure what was said by either person but TM takes the confrontation physical.

         Now your question of WHY. So TM ran and lost GZ, not expecting to see him again. GZ wanting to keep observing where TM went, follows him. TM went south in between the houses and stops to hang out because he doesn’t want to go home. While waiting there he sees GZ walk across at the T and starts to think GZ is following him. TM now feels beligerant because this punk is following him. That would be a possible why. It will be a little hard to confirm though I am sorry to say. Seance anyone:)

     • @ gmac, don’t forget, DD had just hung up with TM; then phoned back at 7:12p

       • That’s my understanding, too. At least that was what was reported early on.

       • I did not forget. Her first call ended at 7:04. Before GZ called in TM. Based off his previous activity he called in as soon as he spotted TM. Not following him around the compound for 5+ minutes before even calling the police.

291. I thought I’d summarise the outlines of what we have so far …who’s agreed on this?

     It took 25 seconds from his vehicle to where GZ said “ok” he’s stopping. If the initial chase was down the internal path, this would put him maybe 2 houses further south of where the shooting happened.

     In more than 3 times that long, he’s not gotten back to his truck yet. He says that’s because he turned right (east) at the T to go to the other street to find a street sign/address. (Let’s ignore that it’s unlikely he’d need to do this, after 2 years living there).

     If he finished looking, finished the call, and started heading towards his truck along the top path (the top of the T) and GOT JUMPED FROM BEHIND, then how did the incident get to happen 2 houses (at least 20-25 yards) south of there?

     This is why everyone got into measuring out where he could have really been. The result is:

     1) GZ first sights TM on the top western bend in Retreat View, either by accident or a tip-off from Taaffe, after TM enters by the back shortcut
     * the gate being shut, as it’s gone 7 p.m.
     * TM’s visited the estate before so would know of the shortcut
     2) GZ follows, long enough to claim suspicion, TM takes shelter at the clubhouse, GZ parks on the west-east section of Twin Trees and calls the police.
     3) TM runs down Twin Trees and GZ follows him that way.
     4) TM disappears by ducking through between buildings
     * either (A) east towards the central “doggie” path, then north on that
     * or (B) west to the path along the pond, turning north
     5) GZ goes to the internal path through one of the cut-throughs between buildings
     * either (case A) to get a view of where TM went (if he went to that path)
     * or (case B) because he’s caught sight of him crossing Twin Trees at the top (if he went along the pond route)
     6) In case (A) if TM took the internal path, GZ comes up behind TM, who turns and challenges him “why are you following me”
     OR in case (B) if he took the pond path, they meet face to face and TM challenges GZ.

     Case (B) fits better with DeeDee’s “cornered” story; case (A) fits better with the shadows running northwards.

     I’m not going into the details of the fight and the aftermath; it’s too murky.

     • Both cases (A) and (B) fit with cornered. I just think it’s much simpler than either (A) or (B).

       If Zim heads straight up Twin Trees towards Long Oak (towards a good view of the back entrance), this is a path parallel to Trayvon Martin’s footpath whether Trayvon Martin chose to go down the doggie tee path or the Retreat View path using any cut-through or not using any cut-through. Both Trayvon and Zimmerman are headed in the same direction. One is chilling after achieving safety and continues to chat up his girlfriend. The other is either standing still or continuing up a parallel path and eventually continues to scope/hunt while taking an alternate path north “back to his car”. Let’s say for sake of argument, Trayvon is at his back porch and still chatting when Zimmerman sees him as he passes Long Oak heading towards the back gate and then enters the doggie path from the south side. If Trayvon Martin had made it ALL THE WAY HOME and was AT HIS OWN BACK PATIO but not yet on his porch and feeling safe. Zimmerman would still encounter him on his way back to his car while profiling Trayvon as a criminal and force Trayvon Martin to RUN again back down the path heading north. Zimmerman could have chased him from out back of his own back porch! Brandy Green said he was on his porch in the initial interviews early on.

       Cornered can mean you have no other choice but to fight or flight (take action to protect oneself). To kids (and most benign people), action is running or kicking, screaming, biting, scratching, picking up objects to defend oneself, sticking out a leg to trip someone as most kids don’t have guns.

292. not sure if it has been discussed or not but something just popped into my head. If zims nose was broken and bleeding and trayvon was covering his mouth and nose then surely he would have blood and snot and saliva all over his hands…even if there was no blood zims dna would be on trayvons hands. I wonder if they found any. And the blood would have been smeared over zims face too presumably.

     • Interesting take. There should be a lot of blood everywhere.

       • My husband nose was broken 4 years ago while playing basketball and didn’t bleed but a little, doctor said some people are like that, interesting isn’t it? I have seen many professional basketball players get their noses broken and hardlly bleed at all.

         • Have never seen/heard of this before.

           • Of course, in this case we know that the police have told us that GZ’s nose was bleeding. I don’t know what it feels like to have a broken nose touched, but it certainly sounds like it should be very painful indeed. Most especially since, if TM was trying to smoother him, by covering his nose with one hand, while trying to cover his mouth with the other, I can’t imagine him being gentle about it.

             A simple swab of TM’s hands should produce GZ’s dna. Blood, even when wet is some very sticky stuff, TM’s hands should be covered with sliva and blood. And then… they wrestle for GZ’s gun!

             The only thing that makes sense is that GZ followed TM and when he saw TM coming to confront him, he drew his weapon, ordered TM on the ground, TM began screaming for help! The strange thing about those calls for help is, as a general rule, we should hear him pleading with the man holding the gun on him. Unless he’s convinced that the man holding the gun is going to kill him, then he pleads for more eyes, in the hope that more eyes will deter the gunman. I don’t understand why that didn’t work, since nobody would know there’s a gunman loose on the grounds until after the shot was fired. But, when people hear a ruckus outside, they usually go to the window and peek out.

             In this case people didn’t go to the window as if, they knew there was going to be gun play, go figure!

       • I too thought it strange that if TM had covered GZ’s broken nose with his hand, in an effort to smoother him, it should have been extremely painful. So painful in fact, I doubt sincerely, that screaming would have been all GZ would do. The immediate reflex would have been to both reach/grip with his hands and buck with his body, to attempt to throw TM off. Pain gives one magical strength, yet he would have us believe that, he not only lay still while this happened to him, he actually had the presence of mind to remember to reach under TM’s groin to retrieve his gun.

         Now you add this, that there should be bloody TM hands to show for this episode, yet there is none! I’m sure the SP has noted this as well.

         —And—- I wrote this in reply to another “GZ goes free” post on another board ——-

         Well, they certainly lost a whole lot of evidence, by letting GZ go home with his clothing, cell phone and other effects. They didn’t bother to have his wounds professionally documented. Of course, there is some evidence that police and prosecutors were pissed off by SYG. So a case can certainly be made that what was done in this case was some sort of LEO protest.

         But, even that aside, I can easily see how they’d be incredibly disheartened to learn that even gang members, engaged in a drug/turf war, were able to successfully claim SYG. I’d hate to think what SYG could do to the LEO climate in LA or NYC… Detroit anyone? I’d have to say on the surface of it, Florida law is an unholy mess.

         Even so, when LEO decided they’ve got to move on a thing, they find they still have an incredible arsenal of tools to work with. In this case, where so much evidence has been lost, the SP is more at the mercy of a jury, because there’s so little forensic evidence that can be used to dispute the defense claims. The whole thing turns on whether or not the SP can convince a jury that GZ was not entitled to SYG coverage! It certainly appears he was not!

         This is because, unlike an ordinary citizen, who may or may not decide to follow a suspicious person. GZ has taken a 14 hour, police administered course, on how NW is to be conducted, and those materials specifically instruct him not to carry a weapon and not to follow. It also gives many good reasons why he should not do so. Not the least of which is that he could compromise the very case the police will be trying to make. That draws the equation:

         1. Are you trying to bring a bad guy to justice?

         2. Or are you merely interested in seeing “justice” done by yourself?

         If 1. then you certainly must follow the given rules to the letter.

         If 2. then you are the criminal yourself. In which case SYG, clearly does not apply.

         I can’t see a jury giving burglars the right to defend themselves while in your house. Nor can I see them giving vigilantees the right to take the law into their own hands.

     • Wow I can’t believe I overlooked this too. The autopsy will uncover a lot.

     • DNA for president! 🙂

     • nola, GZ did apparently bleed, remember he had a bloody nose…if martin was covering his mouth and nose he would have zims dna on him…even if his nose miraculously waited to bleed until the police arrived there would still be other dna

293. There’s a hearing scheduled for tomorrow May 8th, GZ won’t be there.

     George Zimmerman case: Judge orders to unseal some of state’s evidence

     • Excellent link. Thank you. It’s probably better for Zimmerman’s defense team to keep him in hiding. We’ll learn a lot tomorrow. New blog posting soon though I won’t be able to update it until the afternoon.

       • You’re very welcomed NLME, I suspect the SP has found something extremely incriminating, something the defense can’t find away around. We already have so much that’s incriminating, that the defense probably can’t see a way around, that the best thing they can do is go quiet and hope that donations continue to roll in. Something that probably would not happen, if people thought GZ was going to lose, “hands down”.

294. gmac124
     You’re making two points concerning DeeDee’s statement that are rather easy to debunk.

     About your first point…
     Her statement is about a call she made starting sometime between 7:12:00 & 7:12:59 and ending sometime between 7:15:00 & 7:15:59.
     Her statement recounts two phases:
     1) She didn’t witness the first phase. It was all told by TM. That phase is about GZ following TM through out the gated community to be finally lost.
     2) She witnesses the second phase through TM’s words as well as background noise caught by the cell phone. This is when GZ cornered TM and a chase ensues.

     When GZ says “shit! He’s running” it is 7:11:42. This is part of the first phase. Since I don’t believe GZ premeditated his murder, I believe he didn’t lie and therefore, TM indeed ran away. Thanks to running, TM could loose GZ.

     When TM refuses to run, we’re in the 2nd phase after GZ cornered him. We now know that there is an eye-witness of two individuals, one chasing the other, on the back path between the buildings where the killing occurred. From that witness, we know the individuals were moving north from about TM’s place. This is an important correlation of DeeDee’s statement.

     About your second point…
     Stalking somebody doesn’t require running. That said, while GZ indeed stopped running after TM while on the phone with police, nothing says he didn’t run after TM 90sec later. What GZ’s call says is that he was on a hunt for TM. He rushed out of his vehicle to run after TM. He kept on complaining that he lost sight of him for nearly 2minutes. Seconds before ending the call, he abruptly changes his mind concerning meeting police at the mailboxes and bluntly says that he has no idea of where he will be in the coming minutes. Finally, he is found by LEO having shot dead TM with a gun and being equipped with a couple of flashlights.

     About GZ’s statements vs witness’…
     GZ most consistent story is that after the call ended, he looked for a street name and walked back to his truck when TM approached him from behind. TM asked a brief question. GZ made an even briefer answer (he said “no”). TM told GZ that he now has a problem, brought him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him and started banging his head on the concrete. In that statement, GZ appears rather passive before gunning down TM.

     There are a total of 4 witness contradicting that statement:
     1) DeeDee: She says GZ chased TM. They finally loudly exchanged words and the she could hear what she think was a push right before the call went dead.
     2) Unknown witness: (S)He saw two individuals rushing north one chasing the other on that same back path right before the scuffle.
     3) The teacher (2851 RVC): She heard two men arguing loudly. Then nothing for a short while, then the argument started again. Finally, she saw two men fighting in the grass.
     4) Unknown man (probably the teacher’s neighbor named Manalo at 2861 RVC): He had exactly the same story as the Teacher on AC360.

     The firsts two witness recount a chase. The last two recount a longer than brief argument between two loud men before the scuffle.

     GZ has witnesses who saw TM on GZ during the scuffle. Johnathan Good (1221 TTL) aka John is one. I wouldn’t be surprised that Jeremy Weinberg (1211 TTL) was another one. It was said at some point that Austin McLendon was one of those witnesses but apparently that is not the case anymore. The issue I see is that, to my knowledge, none has a story about what lead to the fight. Was it TM ambushing GZ or GZ chasing TM. That makes a huge difference when you claim self-defense.

     Furthermore, GZ’s story is hard to reconcile with the location of the killing. That was NMLE’s demonstration.

     Finally, GZ’s storyS aren’t self consistent. That was the point made the prosecution during the bond hearing.

     • You’ve been served, gmac. Sorry – I had to. 🙂

     • Let’s start with DeeDee. I did some research just to refresh myself and to make sure I wasn’t mistaken. The original timeline from the call was that it started at 7:04 which is what the time that the narrative is trying to prove. When you change the time for that call to 7:12 the narrative doesn’t make sense. Yes it includes many of the facts from the 911 calls, because it was constructed after the 911 calls were released so only a fool would not make sure they were supported.

       • Gmac,
         You really have to check your sources.
         I have stored 7 different sources concerning the call in my log book and they all say the same, that is, DeeDee called at 7:12 and the call lasted 4min.

         Here is the redacted phone log from t-mobile:

         Click to access call+log.pdf

         Below are two different news reports:

         http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.T3CSmmGKnNV
         http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2017887566.html

       • The source i used was

         http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/20/cnr.03.html

         CNN transcript from the original release. It shows the 7:04 time in there. It could very well be false but that would be the information supplied to them by Crump. Were they the first to report and then they discovered that the call time wasn’t supported? Not sure. I am just surprised that the group on here would take anything supporting TM as gospel and everything suppporting GZ as a lie. Truthfully if GZ lied I am sure we wouldn’t have heard about this at all.

295. Looking at the Taaffe video above, I note that “they don’t always get away”?!? At least from what Taaffe is saying, GZ has no reason to feel that they always get away, having helped catch the guy who was burglarizing Taaffe’s home, eh? He also accomplishes the Taaffe listed feats, without either following or shooting anyone. So, Taaffe is saying in effect, that the first time GZ follows someone, he winds up shooting an innocent person to death. Or did Taaffe put yet another nail in GZ’s coffin for him?

     • I found Taaffe’s interviews very, very odd. I have always considered Taaffe’s statements to be of a friend you’d wish would shut up. But.. Zimmerman appreciated Taaffe’s support. Insight leak. Insight leak. Birds of a feather..

       • That’s what came to my mind too.

     • I wrote in and added a the Taaffe had a record for abusing his wife, and he truly did show he true colours when he would over talk hosts and raise his voice trying to make his points in supporting Z. Nancy Grace had his microphone cut bc he was obnoxiously yelling over her and a panel. This guy is a creep. He also in some of his first interviews mentions he understands how the Martins feel bc he lost his son 2 years ago in an accidental death. When a reporter asked him how his son died he said pharmaceutical mixing of medications, something to that effect. I’m thinking like Heath Ledger where the medications mix in your body and you can eventually stop breathing in your sleep? Or could it have been suicide?

296. Aussie I don’t have anything against them charging GZ. I have a problem with using manufactured evidence to charge him. The main disconnect between DeeDee and GZ’s call is why would TM walk fast AFTER he has already ran and lost GZ? As far as race goes rarely is it a factor in cases anymore there is to much news coverage. It does not stop black people from claiming racism/discrimination though and I don’t mind when it is true. However it really frustrates me when racism allegations are untrue and ruin an innocent persons life (that is what I meant about innocent).

     • Gmac…. manufactured evidence????

       There is only one truth…. a million lies.

       Once someone tells 2 versions, or 3, or 7, of what they did, even if one of those is the truth, he is LYING, because the other versions can NOT be the truth.

       It’s that simple. Some of the police were not satisfied even on day one that the versions added up.

       Say what you like about shock, adrenalin, confusion etc etc the basic outlines of the story must be the same, if it is the true story. Sure people will remember more detail later. But it will be MORE detail, not OPPOSITE detail.

       And sure, I’d probably lie my ass off too, if I thought it would keep me out of jail.

       The fact remains, GZ told inconsistent stories and none of them explain how, if he “got jumped from behind, from the left” where he said he was (the top east to west path) , had his nose broken with the first blow (a good trick, from behind, anyway) and getting his head beaten to a pulp on concrete, how they both ended up 20 yards down the path by the time he fired the shot.

       Where the body was found is not manufactured evidence. GZ claiming he was jumped 20 yards away is his own words, not manufactured.

       He should have been charged on day two, and that would have been the end of it. The fault for not doing that lies with the police, who have a history of not trying too hard if the victim was black, and favouring their friends.

     • It is funny that you called it manufactured. What I find interesting is that there was nothing criminal in TM’s behavior except from Zimmerman’s account. He gave us nothing from the phone call with the dispatcher. Even the supposed circling isn’t a part of the original phone call, yet you have a problem with manufactured evidence? There is absolutely no evidence that TM went out to commit a crime that day. He paid for his items at the 7-11. He was on his phone up to a minute before his death. Even if you don’t believe what the girl says, Zimmerman gave us nothing REAL until after he was trying to cover his behind. He tells us that the kid ran, but he doesn’t say the kid knocked on the window or circled his car? You can’t trust a person who killed someone, because the consequences are well worth lying for.

     • gmac124, I think you’re confusing the “walk fast” comments from the early part of the confrontation. TM walked fast after seeing the “creepy” and “cold eyes” of GZ sitting in his truck.

     • Two different phone conversations with DeeDee on the trip to the 7/11.

     • You might want to re-read or watch the bond hearing. Gilbreath said they did not have any evidence to contradict GZ’s statement. Which means his story was fairly consistant. GZ has not given a statement since then so he hasn’t changed his story. Other people have tried to say things that could be changes but nothing out of the cats mouth. The prosecution did state that they felt there were inconsistancies between GZ’s statement and the actual evidence (that would be injuries he suffered and how badly he alleged he was getting beaten). However those will be a bitch to prove because he had verifiable injuries. My contention was only that DeeDee’s statement is manufactured and if that is all they have to provide for probable cause they don’t have a case. Oh and one other thing from all of the sources I can find NOBODY in the Sanford PD wanted to arrest GZ. That is from the lead investigator in an interview a few weeks after this exploded. They put on the paperwork manslaughter because a statute is required for an investigation, not what they wanted him charged with.

       • I agree that the DeeDee testimony is unreliable. It was taken 3 weeks after the fact and yet has so much detail. It wasn’t as if she was running over and over the conversation in her mind. She was off to continuing her life. Something is screwy about how much she has said. Cross examination will probably open that one up.

     • @ecletricsandra, Dee Dee’s account was not made public via the media until three weeks later. Obvious common sense is that her statement of those phone conversations with Trayvon were revealed to Martin’s attorney’s and investigated much sooner than that.

       • FWIW… This article states they had an issue within the first few days unlocking Trayvon’s phone to see his call history:

       • I take it folks trying to poke holes into how DeeDee responded have never been that close to a homicide. In 1997, I lost my brother. In 1999, I lost my lover. I can still to this day remember the details around the days prior to and notification to me of their deaths. These are things you do not forget.

         DeeDee has also said that she feels a tremendous amount of guilt. I can tell you as someone who was not even in her circumstances, I know what she means about feeling guilt. She probably thought she had done something wrong. Her mother was concerned for her safety as any parent would be given that the killer was still on the loose.

         These arguments about why DeeDee waited 3 weeks (short period of time GIVEN the nature of this crime) and her “lying” are an obfuscation. My guess, DeeDee’s testimony will be considered excited utterances and more probative value will be placed on them than Zimmerman’s after the fact fantasy. It is no wonder that this CHILD is being attacked so vigorously as she is central.

         These parents knew that the confessed killers version of events did not go down the way the police described. To their credit, they did not give up when many people would. Short of video tape, there is nothing in this world that can make me believe that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. As I said before, all this improbable things have to happen for Zimmerman’s story to be true. Yes it could be true but looking at the numbers and lack of evidence to support his claims, I find them utterly false.

         The Pro-Zimmerman camp wants to claim race has nothing to do with it all the while they are race-baiting non-stop with their thinly-vieled codewords and assertions of the “thug” Trayvon. The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards justice and I believe that Trayvon will receive justice.

         I honestly would like to know who O’Mara is going to call as defense witnesses. None of the witnesses seem to support Zimmerman, corrections included. Scientific experts? Another odd thing, why are the only people sticking up for the confessed killer twice his age? My behavior around my elders is certainly different. So why does he have no one in his age peer group running around on TV sticking up for him? I’m curious but I believe I know why.

         • Hold up – DeeDee was questioned in that McClatchy story?!?

           I skimmed 2/3 of the article and didn’t see her name. Haven’t re-read yet but that’s some fcking bullshiat if she was mentioned.

           A) She was a minor.
           B) Her family likely didn’t have access/means to on-demand legal representation.
           C) Nobody came looking for anybody that spoke with Trayvon leading up to his death until detectives unlocked his cellphone and/or obtained phone records.

           • I didn’t get as far as you did NLME. Only far enough to see that TM is now supposed to have “wrestled GZ to within an inch of his life”. What a joke!
             If that’s all O’Mara is going to have to take to the jury, GZ might just as well give it up or hightail it overseas. Oh geeze, I forgot, he’s got an ankle bracelet.
             Oh well, GZ is toast again!

             The fighting gets milder and milder, even while TM gets heavier and GZ get’s lighter.

             Whenever you read silly articles in the MSM, never treat them seriously or show the effort any respect, post dismissive laughter back at them, and of course, be sure to let them know, verrrry briefly why their efforts are so silly as to be insane. The only thing they can’t stand is ridicule.

           • @ Aussie
             Thank you for your response.I went back and double checked the audio for Witness 13, and he does say “I came up on him was shining my flashlight, sounded like he was on the phone. I asked him do I need to call 911, he said I just got off the phone with them @ the 4:05 mark of the 17 minute audio. I would go back a little earlier, lets say @ the 3:50 mark. So, yes I do believe he called because the same person who asked if he needed to call is the same person who took the photo of his head while he is on the phone in the picture. The time frame fits with your picture time frame if it was taken 2 minutes after the reported time of the officers reaching the front gate and not the actual crime scene. I have also thought that the witness listed as 15 was his call. Notice that there is no interview or anthing following w-15. Every other 911 is followed up with written or and a interview, not 15. I have read that witness 15 was the sister who originally called for Austin the young man walking the dog. But if thats the case she would of given a written statement and or an interview even if she was a minor just like Austin did. I truly believe that it is his audio recording of his 911 call after the shooting. It makes sense to me because there is no follow up interview or another possibilty Trayvon made the call but highly unlikely. Thanks Loree

297. Another inconsistency. Since George Zimmerman’s story is he jumped on Trayvon Martin’s back AFTER he shot him BECAUSE he did not know if Martin was dead, why did the cries for help stop immediately AT the time of the shot?

     If Zimmerman didn’t know if he was out of danger immediately after the shot, why would he stop crying for help? Doesn’t add up and multiple witnesses heard the cries stop immediately after the shot.

     • I still want too know if he dropped the gun first, or had it in his hand when he jumped on TM, or holstered it first, or what?

       And once the danger is over and people are coming out and the police are around the corner, why holster the gun at all? to hide where it fell? afraid someone else will pick it up and use it? to hide where it fell?

       Can’t have been “force of habit”, it’s not as if he shoots someone (or even at targets) every day, thank God.

       CSFC I am sure you’d not keep calling out when you’re dead. I wouldn’t. 😉

       No, realistically, injured or not, he’s lying face down with his arms under him, can’t be much of a danger in that position. How he GOT to be in that position is another mystery of course.

       If TM is on top, kneeling either side of GZ’s legs, and sits back, then gets shot, there’s maybe time enough with one movement to roll out sideways before he falls. Then GZ’d have to twist/pull his legs free and can roll over onto HIS knees to launch himself onto GZ’s back. Would have to be a zig zag roll though, hard right to get out from under, hard left to get back on top, Or keep rolling right until on his own knees and twist sideways 90 degrees at least.

       Oh maybe roll left, not right. GZ seems to be left handed, going on the high school pizza-cutting pix.

       • Right so you were just seconds away from “being in fear of your life” and you holster your gun?? To me, nothing he did that night indicates fear whatsoever. Holstering the gun shows a presence of mind to me that doesn’t synch with “I feared for my life.”

         You just shot someone and you don’t know if Flashlight is friend or foe! Further, why would Flashlight be friend?

         I understand this isn’t TV and people do unpredictable things but nothing that night was predictable or even fell within what you think a human would do. No one comes out when they hear the “helps” but then people rush to render assistance after a gunshot? Someone was murdered on my street last summer during the day. It was right before July 4th so I couldn’t tell if it was gunshots or if it was firecrackers (one problem living in the hood during the summer). I thought to myself, I’ll wait until I see police lights before I even venture to go take a peek. By the time I thought to look up again, there were no flashers but I did see police on the scene. They had already covered the body.

         I say all this to say, it just seems unlikely to me that strangers would run toward a gunshot, run towards the person who had just shot someone unless they knew the person and knew they would not be in danger. As much as I hated the fact that someone died on my street, I was not leaving my house until I knew that police were on the scene. I wasn’t even going near a window because windows aren’t bullet-proof and this was broad daylight. The guy was shot five times and had no chance sadly. There was nothing I could do but I certainly wasn’t going to put myself in harm’s way after the fact and rush out of my house immediately.

     • and why would he “turn and fall” face down, arms underneath if he wasn’t hurt or dead….and how did he turn and fall, he must have been standing….Maybe Martin was on top, but who is to say that zim didn’t pull him down in the scuffle and contined to hold him, yelling help help because he wanted help apprehending this burglar that he caught….because for martin to turn and fall he was most certainly not laying on top or even sitting on top of zimmerman….he got away and zimmerman shot…it could still be close range if trayvon stood up and zimmerman extended his arms to shoot.

     • And if you listen to the 911 tape that recorded the cries for help, the cries run right into the shot, then stop at the moment of the shot. That’s consistent with a victim being shot. A shooter would have paused to take the shot, or been able to continue calling for help after the shot.

       • Excellent point on the cries for help running right into the shot and then immediately ceased after the gun went off. Also, if Zimmerman after he said he stood up and straddled Martin thinking he was still alive, wouldn’t you think there would be more calls for help recorded on the neighbors 911 call if it was he who was the one screaming for help. There was only one person who had the gun in hand with finger on the trigger and who fired the deadly shot.

       • Don’t forget about the anguished shriek right before the shot.

       • @princess6. Yes, that last blood curdling shriek ended the moment the bullet entered Trayvon’s heart. All those recorded cries for help were from only one person that was the voice of a young African American who was fighting for HIS life.

298. What I don’t understand is through all of the supposed beating and suffocating that Zimmerman went through, not once did he use his hands to defend himself. Perhaps someone wants to think of a scenario where Zimmerman is unable to defend himself with his hands… I think the gun was out right away as he chased this kid. I think TM had no choice, but to try to fight back as well as he could.

     • yeah its weird isn’t it. I think it was more wrestling, no one (except john) saw anything other than two men laying on the ground, no punches etc. Maybe zim tried to hold martin, they fell (cut on back of head)..maybe trayvons arms were held and he slammed zimm with a massive head butt (i hope), got up and then zim shot. I can not work out how Martin was face down unless he had gotten to his feet before the shot.

     • Yeah, San San, you’re right !

       There’s the nose-breaker punch, the repeated bashing of head on concrete, some version hand on mouth and nose……….and nothing about what he’s doing in return.

       Yeah. No scratch his face, claw at his hands, punch in ribs, pulll hair, no nothing. But he forgot he had the gun until he noticed that TM noticed he had it. How did that go down?

       Okay we’d better wait a few days, see what they start releasing next. He must have told the police all about those details. These are items we only have third hand (either police told TM’s father and he told us, or GZ told his own father/brother and they told us). Both lots would be edited versions and were very brief.

     • I have being trying to keep up with the facts in this case, could you please provide me with the site where you read the evidence regarding the person who saw Zimmerman chasing Trayvon. I have read that someone is claiming that he or she saw shadows of two people running along the sidewalk that is behind the townhouses. I don’t know if this is the information you are alluding to in your comment, because the way you have written your comment I am assuming that there is some evidence that proves that Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon.

       We don’t know what the autopsy report is going to show regarding any marks to Trayvon’s body. I wouldn’t put much trust in the funeral home director’s statement.

       • Do you normally disregard statements from funeral directors? Why or why not?

       • Nola, the evidence on this is someone saw two shadows. Not the actual people.

         We are doing a scenario in which GZ was doing the chasing, because he had motive to chase (on his own admission in his police call, as well as history in NW). TM had neither history nor motive to chase — he was being followed and had once almost managed to get away. I can see him maybe decking someone who suddenly taps him on the shoulder, but I can’t see him chasing after someone running away from him, as that ends his own danger.

         The autopsy would show scratch marks, if there were any. It would not show fresh bruises, as dead bodies don’t bruise (bruising involves blood seeping from broken blood vessels, which happens only minimally once there is no circulation). So the funeral director could not have seen bruises.

         The autopsy would also show skin etc under the nails, if there is any (though GZ is neither claiming nor showing scratch marks) and possibly blood or mucus and DNA on the hands (assuming he got some from GZ’s broken nose) but only IF they were looking for evidence of a fight.

         If a fight was accepted as being in evidence, they may not have looked. The autopsy is meant to ascertain cause of death, not necessarily events leading up to it. For a body found by itself, they may look for that, too. In an “open and shut” case they may not.

       • Nola,

         The witness of two individuals in a chasing along the back path is part of the bond hearing: http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

     • I can see exactly how that could have happened. The first punch was hard enough to daze GZ. It would have taken a few seconds to clear his head. This would also explain the gap in the loud voices/screaming. Then after clearing his head enough to start a defense TM is in a superior position with GZ’s arms pinned to his sides. He can still reach his waist where the gun is but cannot defend himself or strike TM. I have been placed in this position by an older brother and it is scary as hell when you are unable to dislodge your attacker. We will have to wait for the evidence to be released, which appears to be soon, to verify many of the aspects. Should be an exciting few days.

       • Gmac

         Some people are determined to defend George Zimmerman as innocent and justified in his SYG claims, but can one honestly say this is so? The fact a person is deemed innocent until proven guilty (or innocent) is the right thing to do, but this doesn’t mean they should not be questioned for their actions and words. Should one accept everything this man says as truth? Given the scene of the crime and what led up to it, the tape recordings, some ot the witnesses that dispute what Sanford police have said, the hurried up investigation and the questionable character of some of their police force, it goes without reason why this self defense claim is being challenged. Not to mention Trayvon Martin’s reputation being smeared as well as his family who are demanding justice, it’s not unexpected that some would come to their defense.

         Here we have a teenager barely turned 17 years who hadn’t experienced what it was like to be a full grown mature adult. He was doing nothing wrong and had every right to freely walk to his father’s home into the community he was staying. Then we have an over zealous NW who incriminately profiled the teen and arrogantly decides to take on the role of a law enforcement officer by leaving his vehicle to track down the whereabouts of this suspicious looking burglarer who is one of those “a***** who always get away”. In his dispatch call he acknowledged to following his suspect and there is no doubt George was out of breath from running and then stops because he “lost” Trayvon. All the time this is going on he is using the lame excuse looking for an address in a small three streeted housing section he lived at for two years. In one of his later statements to police he says there was a point when he forgot he had a gun. How could someone who was holstered with a gun suddenly forget he had it with him? Was his mind playing tricks on him while under such duress he forgot about his gun but then suddenly remembered he had it? At his pretrial hearing he claims he didn’t know if Martin had a weapon, but when exiting his vehicle he made sure he had his gun with him even though according to NW rules he was not to pursue or be armed and only to be a lookout by reporting any suspicious activity. He also said at that hearing he thought Martin was only a few years younger than him. Did he suddenly realise this shortly after telling the dispatcher he thought Martin was a teen or was it when they first met face to face in their initial confrontation? He says that after this brief verbal encounter he then turned around to walk back to his vehicle and was attacked from behind. Why would someone turn their back on someone he now believes is a full grown adult, suspicious of committing a crime, and doesn’t know if they have a weapon? Is George admitting his ignorance, trying to play ignorant or does he think everyone else is? The next scene he’s saying he is on the ground pinned down underneath his attacker, defenselessly being beaten to a pulp almost losing consciousness and then he now succeeds in grabbing his gun that he momentarily forgot he had. So while in that constraining position he manages to take the gun out of the holster, places his finger on the trigger, aims it at Martin’s chest and fires. So because Zimmerman says this is the way it happened we are to only accept his version and disregard Trayvon because he is now dead and cannot speak for himself?.

         In essence Zimmerman’s SYG defense thus far doesn’t pass the smell test and in fact stinks to no end. Yep, this is why he has been charged and there will be a trial based upon all the evidence presented in due time.

         This of course is all speculation based upon what is already known. One can also be presumptuous in questioning whether Zimmerman has selective amnesia, is an outright lying con or has a mental problem. I’m also wondering if he’s been evaluated by a psychiatrist yet. Whatever he is I truly hope he gets professional help for his condition.

       • Caroline I haven’t accepted what anybody has said as the whole truth. However when the lead detective states that they don’t have any physical evidence to dispute his claim it tells me he didn’t just make his story up out of whole cloth. On the flip side can we get the truth about Trayvon? Why was he in Sanford? Some allegations are that he was suspended for the 3rd time this school year. So all he received for a suspension was a vacation? There are many questions that haven’t been answered in this case and I believe that is why so many people have tuned in and stayed with the case. I have given plausable explanations that would support GZ’s statement, I haven’t heard any good explanations on why TM would have been outside if he was as scared of GZ as DeeDee says. Besides he wasn’t new to the area so he knew other family’s, if he was scared to go home because his Dad wasn’t there why not stop at a neighbors house while the scary man was around? GZ might have been a little overzealous but his statements hold water with the other evidence. No one has been able to give a solid reason as to why TM was so far away from home when he should have easily reached there.

         • BECAUSE IT’S NOT ILLEGAL TO BE OUTSIDE! That should be good enough.

           It is, however, illegal to stalk, harass, prey upon, etc. and fatally shoot an unarmed neighbor.

       • NLME legallity has nothing to do with it because it wasn’t illegal for GZ to walk in his neighborhood either. If you are scared you go to a safe place. Even if you take DeeDee’s testimony as gospel it can support a self-defense claim for GZ. GZ watched and followed TM before the 911 call, then during the 911 call TM ran and lost GZ. Then TM sees GZ on the corner? Could it be the corner of the t and TM yells at GZ causing GZ to turn and come down the inner path to see what TM wants? If so she just confirmed that GZ was not stalking, harrassing, or preying on TM because GZ was walking by when TM made contact. If TM became the aggressor GZ had every right to SYG.

         • Nope, it’s illegal to stalk, harass, and prey upon a neighbor. I hope my (non-existent) teenager wouldn’t lead a strange man back to the house — especially when I wasn’t home.

           Moreover, as instructed, if Zimmerman returned to his vehicle and waited for police after the 911 call ended, this murder doesn’t occur.

           • For all the stalking and tracking down Trayvon certainly didn’t escape very far. Traveling roughly 30 feet from his last known position at the T over the next two minutes. Or around 3 inches per second.

             • So, you’re blaming the shooting victim – an unarmed teenager – for trying to figure out a way to escape somebody stalking, harassing, and preying upon him?

             • It’s obvious that TM was trying hard to appear outwardly “cool”, while inside he was churning, troubled and terribly confused. The only evidence we have so far, that any real fight ensued, is from GZ’s testimony. Obviously TM can’t refute any of it. Only the evidence can do that, but it must be looked at very closely, and much of it is missing, owing to the failure to investigate immediately. For some strange reason the SPD decided to take the word of the killer, that no crime had been committed. They do know that in cases of homicide, they don’t need the approval of the DA to do a thorough investigation. They decided not to bother, yet, they did hold onto GZ’s gun!

               Perhaps that’s why GZ fell on top of TM after he was dead. A very good time to get TM’s fingerprints and dna on it as well as to pick up trace. GZ hopes to come out of this as some sort of “hero for life”, at least in better shape than Bernard Goetz. But Goetz is an electronics engineer who makes a 6 figure salary. All GZ will have going for himself is, the hope of a marketable celebrity.
               In that, I fear, he’s miscalculated, the only one’s interested in him, will be white supremacists. They won’t want anything to do with him now, because he’s “proud of his Hispanic Heritage”. Meanwhile, Hispanics have no use for such a “hero”. As far as money goes, his parents have demonstrated that they still have some financial responsibilities to him, so I think the costs of this case is going to leave them all financially drained. So, I think his future is bleak either way.

           • All NW programs, run by the police departments, probably use the National Sheriff’s NW manual. I’d bet that the SPD did as well. They offered a 14 hour course, that’s the same length as the course the Sheriff’s Association offers.
             The NSA’s course makes it clear that they are extremely concerned that these NW programs aren’t seen as, or become, vigilante groups. So they take great pains to explain the rules, and how and why these rules are necessary, to keep NW easy to distinguish from vigilante acts. The most critical keys to this effort is: No weapons and DO NOT FOLLOW SUSPECTS!

             A poster here on this board, who claims to have participated in a NW program, says that there, he was exposed to a constant stream of reminders about these two critical rules. Meaning that expert law enforcement officials are agreed that once you violate these rules you become a vigilante. I’m pretty sure that at law, that will be enough to convince a judge that GZ was a vigilante in the eyes of the law.

             Next up is what do vigilantes do that’s illegal? They take the law into their own hands! Even if they witness a crime, they do not wait for the police to make an arrest, but they attempt to mete out justice by themselves. Otherwise, they would not be a vigilante.

             Even so, as a general rule, a vigilante will, at the least, be sure that a crime had been committed. Their failure is in not affording the accused a fair trial, at which the accused might actually prove themselves to be innocent.

             But, GZ had not witnessed any crime! In fact, GZ knew of no crime that had been committed. He expresses a view that a crime might be committed at some future time, if he failed to act on the spur of the moment. Which, he explains, is why he left his car, to follow a suspect he knew, had already observed that he was being followed. Thus, it is unlikely, that even if the suspect was a criminal, no crime was likely to be committed that day.

             GZ says that he didn’t know if TM was armed! That means that he thinks he has reason to believe the worst about TM, and that TM might be armed and dangerous! So, without a badge and with his gun as a defense, he decides to follow this person. Meaning that he was fully willing to risk engaging in a firefight with an armed and dangerous person. Does anyone think he’d accept that risk, if he was not armed himself?

             There’s no way for him to refute such facts, because they are the only conclusions that can be drawn from his own words and actions! He has admitted that he was an armed vigilante that night, out looking for trouble!

       • Gmac, in reponse to your answer:

         What has Trayvon being suspended from school have to do with this? Nothing! Why you insert that is irrelevant. I didn’t bring up George’s past record of his assault upon a law enforcement officer. I haven’t seen any plausible reason to support all of Zimmerman’s claims. As for Martin, he was visiting his dad and had free range to come and go from the house as he pleased without being profiled, followed and ran after by any creep. Hey, maybe Trayvon was trying to evade him and didn’t want to lead a suspicious looking stranger to his residence. I surely wouldn’t let on where I lived, would you? It could be this unarmed teen decided to stop and try to hide incognito until his pursuer gave up following him, and I am sure he never even imagined he would be shot dead by this stalker three minutes later. That is a good enough solid reason why he didn’t go straight home, which btw was the length of a football field from the place of his fatal death.

299. about the calling for help. To me there is only one gut wrenching scream, maybe that was martin but i wouldn’t be surprised if the “help me” was zim. If someone is fearful of their life, they don’t yell heeeeeellllllp…..pause…..heeeelllllllp me…..that sounds to me like someone calling for assistance…..as in i’ve got this guy, someone help me. If zim was being shaken, punched and was scared then all the yelling would have been in a hysterical manner. I can imagine zim trying to hold martin thinking he caught the bad guy and yelling to john heeelllp meeeeeee. John says to zim “stop” and goes to call 911. Martin broke free, zim yells his final help me as he points the gun knowing this guy is gonna get away now and bang…not on my watch. I don’t know, it could be martin yelling, but zimmerman thought he was fucking Batman or something, ridding his town of crime and i would not be suprised if he tried to hold martin, who was struggling and zim was calling for help because he wanted assistance in stopping this guy get away….not because he was being hammered.

     • Two auditory experts have stated it was unlikely the voice of a 28 year old man yelling for help. One was adamant the voice belonged to Trayvon. It is in a thread in this blog, the link to the article.

       • Definitely in the update section of the posting too. 🙂

       • The two auditory experts can say that in there professional opinions that the voice captured on the 911 call does not belong to George Zimmerman but they can not say that no time during the stuggle that George Zimmerman did not scream for help.

         A report by the National Academy of Sciences on forensic voice identification concluded that the scientific basis for making reliable voice identifications is weak. The FBI, as a result of the report, apparently does not use forensic voice analysis for courtroom evidence.

       • hi deborah, i know of the experts findings but at the bond hearing they said that their experts coudn’t tell who was calling. I have no doubt that trayvon was in a struggle for his life, but ive always had a feeling the person yelling was zim but couldn’t put my finger on why. Now i am thinking that someone yelling hellllllp help me…pause….heeellllllp doesn’t fit with someone who is scared for their life. It also doesn’t fit with someone being smashed repeatedly which i don’t think zimmerman was. I think he is an over dramatic prat, who is often calling the police, and thought he had a right to stop this kid because he was playing policeman (and sounded drunk or something) and when the kid fought back zim was yelling for help because he had subdued a dangerous criminal and when the kid got away he shot him at close range. If you’ve been shot in the chest you might take a few seconds to die or even fall over if you were standing, but if you are sitting or standing when shot you certainly don’t get up off the ground and say something out of a clint eastwood movie, then politely turn the other way and fall away from your shooter so i disagree with gmac about that. But as for the yelling, now knowing what an entitled and arrogant man zim appears to be, and he really believes he had every right to do what he did, it wouldn’t surprise me if Captain America was in fact calling for help in his belief that he was trying to save the day.

         • This may have been discussed — I’m on my phone and can’t search but…

           One of those cries for “Help” could have been a witness. Presumably a witness we haven’t heard from yet.

           The other cry for “Help me!” was apparently not Zimmerman.

     • YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK!!!!!!!!!

300. I think the most important thing is, there is no evidence of any fight! TM should have blood and markings to indicate he had actually engaged in a fight. It is not possible for him to fight with GZ as described and not get some marks of the fight. It’s a life and death struggle for GZ’s gun. It’s bashing GZ’s wet head on wet concrete, then rolling the bloody head on the wet grass. Blood and water mix and splash when hit. A wet head with short hair is slippery even without blood on it. GZ’s nose is shown bleeding, police testify that it was. GZ says it was broken. If TM put his hands over a broken nose, you’d expect, at the very least, a heavy spittle laden puff of breath to carry saliva onto his hands.

     GZ also says after TM was shot, “he turned around and fell down and I jumped on top of him”. How could this be accomplished if he had shot TM, while TM was on top of him and they had just finished wrestling for GZ’s gun?

     If you’re both on the ground, TM rolls/falls OVER, not down, and GZ can’t jump on top of him, he has to roll over onto him. But, GZ is seen laying on the grass separated from TM. Could this be when he gets his back wet and grass stained? After all, if you lay down in the wet grass to pick up stains to confirm your story by contrivance… Guess what else you tend to do?

     If you guessed that you’d keep your head up off the grass while you wriggled your back, then stood up, then you’d have guessed correctly. You’d be even more careful to do it that way, if you also knew your head had blood and wounds on it. At a very early age we learn that water in fresh wounds hurts like the devil, so you’d want to avoid that if you could. But even without fresh wounds, there is a tendency, when one lays down on wet grass, to keep one’s head up.

     Now we don’t know where or when GZ’s wounds were created. But we do know that the earliest pictures of them, show none of the debris from the grass, that his clothing picked up. Thus, we can safely say that, GZ’s head wounds were never rolled in the grass. GZ’s friend may have done him a disservice by taking that picture. Because, if it’s true that GZ’s head wounds do not have grass debris on them, then no fight ever took place on the grass.
     Perhaps there are more pictures, if so the SP has them.

     Maybe something will be released today.

     • The one key fact you skipped is that GZ said his head was on the sidewalk. It may not have been the sidewalk but it was something hard. If thats the case there would be no grass on his head. The next key is how did TM end up face down. Even a shot to the heart is not immediately fatal. I have never shot a person but I have shot a deer that took a couple steps than dropped after a heart shot. Which means TM could have stood up tried to leave and fell on his face. A lack of percieved evidence from one view of the fight does not mean there is no evidence of a fight. I will wait for the autopsy report to come out but someone on another blog stated that TM had powder burns on his forearms and that the gun didn’t chamber a new round after the shot and that the magazine was full. If that is true that proves a fight for the gun occured.

       • Yeah – hard grass. That’s it.

         Nope…

         • What?!? GMAC says there should be no grass on GZ’s head? Then, exactly what were they doing on the grass when TM was supposedly shot?
           GZ was on the grass at some point, with TM supposedly on top of him, as they wrestled for his gun and I suppose, while TM was trying to smother him with his hand over his nose and mouth. How does GZ keep his bleeding head off the grass, where the back of his clothes picks up lawn debris?

           The same debris that GZ picks up on his clothing, should be the same as what’s on his bloody head. I think this site might be of a big help to someone:
           (A Celebration of Self Delusion) There they delve into more than just self deception, but how we get fooled as well.

           Warm Regards

       • Actually I was refering to the cover in the grass. Can’t remember what it was for but one in the area of the struggle was broken.

       • or it means someone pointed a gun at him at close range and his automatic reaction was to try and grab it or push it away

       • Lonnie a lack of debris does not prove your claim. I did not say it should have no debris, I said would if the criteria GZ stated was correct. What I really should have stated is it could have no debris if his head was on a hard clean surface. Obviously his back was on the grass. Also if TM had GZ pinned down and GZ couldn’t throw him off they wouldn’t have moved around much. Having been terrorized by an older brother when I was little I know this first hand. Just because you don’t agree with my assesment does not make it wrong or me delusional. I will be happy to concede if you have facts that prove me wrong. Until than let the debate continue 🙂

     • There appears to be some debris in the back of his head. His head was banged on the sidewalk, I don’t know about that sidewalk but mine stays pretty clean.

301. Is it possible that George Zimmerman took off his red jacket and was fighting with Trayvon Martin in his tee-shirt?

     – No grass or blood visible on the photo of Zimmerman’s jacket

     – Witnesses claim white tee-shirt guy on top (although lighting could make one think a colored tee is white)

     – Picture of Zimmerman in jacket with minor gashes and a bloodied head don’t show blood on the back of the jacket

     On a side note, the picture of Zimmerman with what appears to be a cell phone at his ear with a bloodied scalp *could* have been before the police arrived and a picture of the dark grayish portion could very well be Travon Martin’s body in his “dark gray hoodie” not yet covered in tarp.

     If I’m correct on this (Trayvon Martin’s body in the pic), whoever took the picture probably took this picture well before the police arrived and definitely before handcuffing Zimmerman. The police reportedly arrived within 1-2 minutes . So how is it possible that a picture taken 3 minutes later of an unarmed talking on the phone Zimmerman exists after the body is on the ground dead?

     Either the police timestamps are wrong on their reports, or the cell phone stamps of the photographer are wrong. My guess is the police timestamps are off.

     I’m also suggesting that the police report is not as accurate as it could have been.

     • at blog post #228, I didn’t get any answers or speculation about the 85 second mark of the 9-1-1 call where you hear the gunshot:

       Who was yelling at that point???? The proclaimation people are “yelling down there” came approx 85 seconds after the gunshot. Did the police arrive seconds after the shooting, or is the yelling she heard Zimmerman telling John to call his wife or Mary and her friend yelling at George prior to her and Jeremy’s escape to upstairs? Who did the caller on tape 3 hear yelling on the scene seconds after the fatal shot was fired?

       Caller/Tape 2 (probably John) claims he heard (past tense) a shot right behind his and afterwards claims “they are wrestling and someone is yelling help” (present tense) as if after the shot came, the wrestling and screams for help came. His account to the dispatch is completely implausible.

       Also, at Lonnie’s previous point at #239, who are the neighborhood watch trees? I’m not ready to dismiss John as a possible “branch” because his relaying of the events was abnormal.

       From post #239 by Lonnie:

       ” From my readings about NW, I learned that NWC’s are supposed to set up “trees” of notification. These are people who will be called upon to assist with the watching, as in “look out your window and keep an eye on that guy for me” and other things of that type.”

       Along that same vein, do most of us who witness someone lying on the ground refer to them as “down”? John and another witnesses’ accounts seem to be in possible police relay jargon to me.

       Who is a part of this Neighborhood Watch “tree”?

       • As I understand it, at the neighborhood association meetings, they asked for people to join the NW. No one responded. Sometime later on, GZ accepted and he was given a 14 hour course on NW. In the course material, he must have learned about setting up these trees. My guess would be, that at an neighborhood assoc., meeting he offered to put people on the tree if they wanted. It seems to me that NW was not fully explained by GZ, or the people misunderstood him or both. In any event, at least Taaffe seems to say that he’s gone out on patrols.

         Since GZ hasn’t recommended Taaffe take the 14 hour course, it’s more likely that Taaffe is merely on the tree, but thinks he’s NW. Anyone in the community who goes to the meetings or talks to GZ can be put on the tree.
         Those who wish to patrol, however, should have been required to take the 14 hour course.

         In any event, the SPD tasked a community relations officer with setting up an NW, probably in response to the crime that was happening. That officer, would have searched or been pointed to the Nat’n’l Assoc, of Sheriff’s website, where they could obtain more details and the 14 hour course is easily downloadable along with other NW materials. Plus they also offer plenty of help in setting up NW groups. It could very well be that they point to someone in your area, who comes in and gives the 14 hour course, I don’t know, I didn’t pay close attention at the point where I was reading, since that wasn’t germane to my research then. It was only later that I learned GZ had taken a 14 hour course, claimed to have been administered by the SPD itself.

         The NW concerns are that they are extremely sensitive to being seen as vigilante’s, thus there is incredibly high levels of emphasis placed on “don’t follow suspects” and “don’t patrol while armed”. This, they repeat to the point of painful tedium, because of their concerns that they might be seen as encouraging vigilantism. They have been accused of it before and this is the defense they’ve erected.

         A Community Policing officer is supposed to attend NW meetings, which are usually held as part of N. Assoc., meetings about once monthly. I get the general impression that SPD oversight of NW was lax. But GZ can’t claim that as an excuse, because he signed up and was given the 14 hour course. Also his narrative of that fateful night, contains artifacts, that appear to have been created, specifically to excuse what would otherwise be NW misconduct.

         You can google “neighborhood watch”, but be warned, there’s quite a bit of stuff to wade through. If you use “SPD Neighborhood watch”, you’ll get a totally new site the SPD has replaced the old one with. If you prowl around, you might still find where google has cached the old site. You’ll also want to read the National Sheriff’s Association Neighborhood Watch materials and history. I would not be surprised to see it being used by the SP, since they turned over some 56 cd’s of evidence to O’Mara.

     • Why, how and when take off the jacket?

       If he was jumped, no time. If he was chasing….. no reason to slow yourself by starting to undress. If TM grabbed the jacket and it came off as GZ tries to twist away, why put it back on before the police get there? it would be evidence that he’d tried to save himself by other means.

       Head wound blood won’t spray. It trickles down the neck, won’t go on a jacket unless the collar is up against the neck. I am more worried by no blood from the nose (though people are saying not all broken noses bleed a lot) and no blood from the bullet to a body straight above him.

       While on jackets — someone allegedly saw powder marks on TM’s hoodie. Yeah? black or grey powder marks on a grey hoodie? and this person has seen powder marks before, to recognise what he was seeing? on a guy wet and grassy from just having been turned over?

       The police arrival time is for when they got to the estate, not to the shooting spot. Apparently they went all the way down Twin Trees before working out the action was on the foot path between houses, so had to double back to get there. Add at least a minute for this.

       Cell phones can be set to get their time from the tower, or they can be set for a time of your choosing. If it was set for the latter, it could be a few minutes out all the time. (In fact mine goes back to January 2005 every time the battery goes flat, and counts the days from then unless I reset it).

       • and witnesses said that the guy in the red top was on the bottom so he must have been wearing it…although there doeesn’t look like much of a struggle happened….i couldn’t see grass stains…if there was grass on his back it must have been easily brushed off and certainly didn’t look to “stain” anything such as you would expect during a violent struggle.

     • CSFC,

       The gun shot was at about 7:17:00 +-20sec. We will know more when the 911 calls logs will be released (if ever they are). This can be deduced from Officer T. Smith report stating that he was informed about gunshot in the subdivision as he arrived (7:17:11). This can also be confirmed using DeeDee’s call to TM which ends between 7:15:00 & 7:15:59 and Jennifer’s 911 call that captured the cryings for help and the gunshot 48sec into the call. It is reasonable to say that the scuffle lasted at least 1min before the shot was fired and that Jennifer’s call captured just 48sec of it.

       The picture of GZ’s head was take at 7:19:07. I got a screen grab of the news report showing the camera log of the iPhone. Therefore it was not 3min after the shot but closer to 2min.

       The teacher, john and the lady that cares about an elderly person 4 doors north from hers, all state that they called 911 right after the gunshot was heard and all see someone with a flashlight ~1min in their call. This shows Flashlight man was with GZ about 1min after the gun went off.

       The teacher is the only person still on the phone when Officer T. Smith arrives. She says “Oh, my God! I think there is another gentleman with a flashlight. … I don’t know if that’s police or not”. This is 2min & 22sec into her call. That suggests that Officer T. Smith arrived about 2min & 30sec after the gunshot so around 7:19:30 give or take 20sec.

       It is possible that M. Flashlight disappeared before Officer T. Smith arrived, but we’re talking about a gap of few seconds.

     • One question: Do you have a link showing the pix of TM’s body?

302. The timeline is good but are presented with a clear bias. Regardless of how clearly we can piece together times here we are still lacking many things, that will probably be brought up at a trial, that will decide guilt or innocence.

     With what we have now, we can only draw conclusions. Sure, GZ was pretty overzealous with this but to equate that to second degree murder is a bit of a stretch thus far.

     We know after the 911 call, neither people moved particularly far. It seems entirely plausible to me that GZ and TM bumped into each other at the top of the sidewalk “T”, words were exchanged, TM threw the first punch, knocking GZ down, somehow inflicted a head injury, TM continued to beat him on top, the gun came into play, a further struggle ensued for the gun, while GZ screamed he finally got a grasp of it and as a last resort shot TM.

     Of course, this is assumption, but we can assume because:

     – TM was virtually unscathed, minus the gun shot, as stated by his funeral director. One would think if GZ instigated this, or was on top of him at any point he could have caused some slight injury. To escape any sign of injury, TM had to have landed the first blow, which knocked GZ down. A quick pounce on his upper torso would make sure he wasn’t getting back up to retaliate.

     – Most reliable witnesses, like “John” stated GZ was on the bottom getting beat. That would pretty much eliminate the notion of TM screaming during this brief fight. GZ screamed because he was getting pummeled on the bottom of this and TM became aware of his gun. GZ’s wet, grassy back also backs this up.

     – TM’s body was found face down. Face up would have been a clear indication he was on the bottom, being attacked, but again he was unscathed by this. He had to be on top, busting GZ’s face up and bumping his head around.

     To think a guy who just got off a the phone with the cops minutes prior would pick a fight is not likely. They were going to be there in minutes anyway. TM had no injuries on him and GZ did because, TM punched him in the face out of no where and showed no signs of stopping thereafter. Whether or not GZ went for the gun first at that point is irrelevant, TM probably would have continued until he was unconscious or worse.

     GZ stood his ground, thus wasn’t initially arrested because his account is fairly plausible.

     • A jury won’t see the story this way! A jury will decide whether or not GZ had a right to be in this area at all! To make that decision, they will be forced to consider why GZ went there, what were his reasons for going there and whether or not they were legitimate reasons, given the circumstances.

       To make that decision the jury will have to ask if GZ was on “patrol”, and if he was, should he have had his fire arm with him. To decide whether or not GZ was in a place where he had a right to be, they will have to consider whether or not GZ had actually witnessed a crime (his only “not on patrol” reason for following anyone), and/or was in hot pursuit of a criminal.

       Obviously, GZ would not have followed TM, if he had no good reason to do so. Did he have a legal right to do so? Well, the police would have told him to follow, if they believed that was the proper thing to do! They thought, given what GZ had told them, that GZ should not follow! GZ had failed to mention that he was also armed! So, there will be a question to the police as to what they would have instructed GZ, if they had known he was also armed.

       The whole right to use SYG as a defense, depends upon the claimant having the right to be where s/he was at the time. If GZ had simply happened on to that pathway, then sure, he did have a right to be there. But, if he entered that area, on a pursuit he should not have engaged, then he did not have a right to be there.

       There are three officially known reasons why GZ should never have been in the area where he fired that shot.

       1. He was told not to follow people he found suspicious, only to report them to the police, as a NW’er.

       2. He was asked by the 911 operator not to follow the suspect.

       3. He was instructed never to carry an arm while on patrol.

       Obviously, if he was spotting suspicious persons on the grounds, he was automatically “on patrol”, the moment he reported to the police.

       Of course, the jury will hear the fact surrounding GZ’s right to be where he was, when he fired that shot. If the jury decides that GZ should not have gone into that area at all, then SYG will not apply. That will be their call, not ours.

       • Exactly what I have been saying – great summary! Zimmerman was in the area of the shooting because he was harassing a teen – even after being told not to – instead of returning to his car and waiting for police.

         Stand Your Ground also deals with being in/around your home/car. Hence, Robert Zimmerman was quick to tell us George was attacked from behind while returning to his car. Intentionally ambiguous but his father’s account purposely included the word “car.”

         • RZ doesn’t help his son at all. Since “returning to his car”, is not good and sufficient to end the business he instigated with TM. The situation remains that he was following TM, and he continued to follow TM, even after TM had become aware that he was being followed.

           At the point where GZ is supposedly returning to his car, he has already launched a second assault on TM’s senses, which GZ is trying desperately to say he ended. But, does seeing the man who was following you before, now turning around at another location, mean that TM has no reason to approach his follower? No reason to investigate on his own? Hardly!

           Even if GZ is now walking away, from the teen he has caused so much fear, he has still not ended the matter, only a full disclosure can do that, and TM is entitled to an answer to GZ’s conduct. So, assuming that by turning his back and attempting to retreat back to his car, should mean to TM that hostilities have ended. TM has a right to assume, that perhaps the person following him was either mistaken and/or harmless. Anyone who made such an assumption, would certainly be due and explanation.

           GZ has created a relationship with TM, and that relationship can only be resolved, if GZ identifies himself and explains his conduct. Which, of course, is why GZ wants us to believe, that he was assaulted before any explanation/identification could be offered. Unfortunately for GZ, the whole story is his, and it isn’t very straight forward. Leading anyone reading it to surmise, that these “built in excuses” for GZ conduct are not all true. There’s good reason to doubt many of the claims GZ has made, to absolve himself of blame for the altercation that ensued.

           So, here we would have a still troubled and fearful GZ, turning his back on the suspicious person, he believed he had to get out of his car to follow, because he didn’t know if he was armed. While all the while GZ knows that he is armed!
           Is it believable that he suddenly lost interest in following? Is it believable that he, knowing that the suspect is aware of him, is no longer concerned for his own safety? Such that he can simply walk away indifferently? A jury will be asked to think about such questions, when evaluating the truthfulness of GZ’s story. The SP will also have a timeline that will dispute GZ’s claims.

           So, it is into this mix that TM’s request that GZ identify himself and explain his conduct, comes into play. GZ’s narrative contains nothing at all to defend him against his own failure to respond properly to a very important and highly critical question that was properly asked of him. “Why are you following me?”

           Only an ill intended person would fail to identify themselves at that point in time!
           Even an undercover policeman would have to, let alone a NW’man intending only to keep the neighborhood safe and knowing that the police are already en route. Why does GZ believe that he has the right to keep secret who he is and what he is doing? Why does he issue a challenge to a person who has committed no crime, who he has followed against his rights?

           Finally there is no evidence that TM attacked him, there is no evidence on TM’s body that he engaged in any fight. Let alone the narrative GZ offers.

           O’Mara wants us to believe that he knows nothing of what the SP has, but we can guess that’s untrue. He already knows that GZ has big holes in his story, he can easily guess that the SP may have critical evidence to refute what remains. And Prosecutors are not above dropping hints about what they have. So far, after the bail hearing, it does seem that the defense has been “chilled”.
           They want to slow or prevent the release of evidence as best they can. I can only imagine they want to do that, to keep the donations coming in as long as they can, and to put off the day when GZ looks even more guilty than he already does.

     • Thanks for reading us back GZ’s earliest indirect statements to the media. We didn’t already know that. It made a nice little tidy packet with you selecting who the RELIABLE witness must be and taking nothing about the victim’s known actions that day or any other witnesses into account. I can only thank GOD for investigators who are willing to wade into the messy world of dual statements, witness testimony, conflicts and forensics evidence.

       • Amen, brother San San.

     • I don’t think they’ll even try for the Stand Your Ground. That depends too much on who started the fight.

       Even if GZ just made a verbal threat, or an order to stay until the police arrive, or made the slightest move to detain TM, that is assault. After having been followed up and down and all over, TM at that point is the one entitled to be in fear, the one to stand his ground, and legitimately strike the first blow, if his path of retreat is blocked. SYG would not be available to GZ if he provoked the confrontation.

       I think they’re going to go with self-defence, plain and simple. That is a feasible defence even if he started it, ie if he only wanted to start an argument, and it escalated to where he feared for his life. (But this was not accepted in a recent case, where some youths attacked at a party (with fists) were judged to be in the wrong for responding with knives).

       Oh and TM did not punch GZ out of nowhere. His brother said he was jumped from behind. Another version was, TM punched him when he reached for his cell phone. If TM then sees the gun, or just believes he is reaching for a gun, that is plenty for TM to be in fear of his life, and try to knock him down before he can use the weapon.

       GZ did state he’d forgotten he had the gun, until he noticed that TM had noticed it. We don’t know at what stage of the proceedings this dual noticing happened. But what is TM then expected to do? “oh gee sorry mister, I’ll just walk away quietly and risk you shooting me in the back??”

       JC, seriously…….. “Whether or not GZ went for the gun first at that point is irrelevant, TM probably would have continued until he was unconscious or worse. ” seriously???? YES that would be the ONLY sensible thing to do, to prevent that gun being used against him. And, with the background of being followed, just SEEING there’s a gun in play would be enough to make that a sensible and legal response.

       So the questions are
       * did TM see/know of the gun before he struck first? (strong case for SYG for HIM)
       * did GZ threaten or verbally assault TM before he struck first? (slightly weaker case but still a case for TM, not for GZ)
       * did he actually strike first?

       It does not matter that GZ may have felt shooting TM was his only way of escaping further injury…. because TM was thinking, knocking GZ out is the only way to stop himself getting shot. He is just as entitled to be afraid of that as GZ is of having his bead bashed in…. and he’d not be afraid of that unless he knew there is a gun on the scene…. which he DID KNOW on GZ’s own admission. It comes down to when he found out.

       • and if GZ was getting mercilessly pounded into the ground without the ability to fight back at all how did he all of a sudden have enough strength to beat martin in a fight for the gun. If martin saw it first as gz claims, how did gz manage to wrestle the gun away since he would like to have us believe that he was unjustly set upon and unable to defend himself from this crazy, nearly vegetative inducing onslaught by martin? How did martin happen to see the gun if he was on top of gz punching his head and trying to suffocate him…..wasn’t the gun at gz’s waist….behind martin? Yes i think it is likely GZ went for his “phone” (who was it that said there is usually a ring of truth to the lie) either giving an obvious display that he was packing to try and intimidate or he tried to pull out the gun, either way it started a fight to the death of an innocent child.

       • You guys have great points only if you had evidence to back them up!

     • i see it differently, zimmerman knew the police would be there soon and didn’t want martin to get away so when he got him in his sites again he wasn’t going to let this kid get away. He wouldn’t have known it would escalate to a point that shots were fired, but he knew the cops were coming and probably tried to subdue/block/corner/chase until they got there……Martin had no idea the cops were coming, or that zim was with neighbourhood watch, he just knew this man was following him, watching him, even got out of his car to search for him…..zim knew help was on the way and that he had a gun so i’m sure he was feeling pretty brave…martin just thought he had to try and lose this crack-pot any way he could and when zim did not identify himself given the chance, martin just tried to stand his own ground.

303. GMAC, getting up off of the ground with no heart would be a lot harder than just walking a few steps while standing without one. I study heart stuff and if the heart or aorta were shot directly, it would be the equivalence of a massive heart attack. A person having a massive heart attack would probably immediately feel the effect of loss of oxygen and nutrients to the limbs and muscles first and finally the brain. They would lose control of the body and pass out immediately. The difference with a massive heart attack is that the heart can try to recover by beating faster, a heart being blown apart with ammo couldn’t. Sadly, TM likely died almost instantly, with no chance of recovery.

     • I agree that it would be fatal very quickly and he would have been only thinking about getting to safety. That would be turning and trying to go home. I have heard that when you are shot your body goes into shock because it doesn’t know how to interpret the massive trauma. I can see 2-3 movements before losing control of his body. Can’t say what the movements would be because I am sure everybody would react differently.

304. Defense attorney Mark O’Mara says he will need time to review the documents before they are made public, but a judge will need to approve that.

     http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/11/2794502/evidence-in-george-zimmerman-will.html

     It seems to me that O’mara is trying to delay releasing the documents. Obviously, if he is, then he’s using his concerns for witness safety as a cover.
     It’s rather easy to surmise that there is other information, that critically compromises GZ’s defense, in there. In which case O’mara is aware, that if that information is made public, his chances of getting further donations is gone! Thus, his “game plan” would be to delay the release of untoward information as long as is humanly possible.

     In Florida he’s treading on very thin ice, the news organizations are all over him. The judge will probably allow or order the papers released with names redacted. So far GZ had 204,000 and the judge has delayed deciding on whether or not GZ’s bail should be raised, because of GZ’s failure to disclose it at the bail hearing, when he clearly knew he had that money. Just like he failed to tell the 911 operator that he was also armed, when she instructed him not to follow.

305. Special Prosecutor Angela Corey’s office announced late Friday afternoon that it will not release the information to the public on Monday but will release it to O’Mara as the evidence against him is in Jacksonville at Corey’s office.

     The evidence will include crime scene photos, Trayvon’s autopsy, Zimmerman’s five statements to authorities, witness statements and crime lab work – if has been completed – on clothing and Zimmerman’s handgun.

     Attorneys for both sides, though, have said they want to keep some of it secret, especially the names and addresses of witnesses.

     Read more:

     http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmermans-lawyer-mark-omara-set-get-evidence-monday-details#ixzz1ubK5QKQI

     Trayvon Martin gun range targets sold out online

     http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/11/11663645-trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-sold-out-online?lite

     • There’s going to be some crazy/interesting stuff coming out — Florida is about as open as any state in regards to public records being released.

       • Yeah, the crime scene photos and TM autopsy will answer a whole lot of questions, especially the wound path and evidence of the vicious/desperate fight that’s supposed to have taken place. I don’t think O’Mara can find a way to hold that stuff back. The SP is going to leave him to stew over it. The longer it takes him to release it, the less credibility he’ll have.

306. Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton are really raking in the dough, wonder when are they going to moan for their son? I recently lost my mother, I can’t imagine jetting all over the country raking in money in the name of justice.

     • Your mom wasn’t an unarmed African American shot by an overzealous loser trying to use a flimsy defense based on some cracked out law that needs major reforming.

       Oh, and I didn’t even bring up how worthless/biased the Stanford police acted that night.

       So, Tracy and Sybrina are fighting for a bunch of reform in the name of their dead teenage son. See the difference?

       • SYG needs to be scrapped entirely, it’s just a gun lobby wet dream pushed on the state by ALEC (the American Legislative Exchange Council) a hard right wing lobbying group that writes legislation and hands it to right wing legislators for passage. We already have the right to stand our ground, but not without judicial review, this law attempts to preclude judicial review of shootings. Thus it came about that gang members, engaged in a drug war shoot out, were able to claim it successfully, That is what has Fla., police and prosecutors in a blood curdling snit.

     • Nola, I’m sorry for the loss of your mother. I know how hard an experience it is.

       I can only imagine how hard it is for Sybrina Fulton to loose her son since this can’t be what you expect in life. But, I can also understand her fight for justice. Her son was killed by a man. That man can claim whatever self-defense he want, she has no reason to believe him. She was right to demand a trial. I would have too and i have no doubt you would have.

       The principle investigator wouldn’t buy GZ’s words either. We have Cheryl Brown, the mother of Austin McLendon, who stated repetitively to the media that indeed police wouldn’t buy GZ’s stories. So, Cheryl may have been more reasonable than Sybrina when it comes to trusting the system. But, I can understand the doubts that grow in you when the killer of your son walks free for weeks because a State Attorney decided so. Personally, I’m not sure the system will have worked properly without the media push. There are so many victims who never see justice done. TM could have been just one more.

       It has to be a difficult moment for Fulton & Martin. They lost their son and they had to fight for justice to work. Now that the judicial system is rolling, they have to pay for it. This is as valid for Martin/Fulton as it is for Zimmerman.

       Finally, Trayvon is now more than a victim of a murder. He became a symbol of injustice or of targeted injustice. That you share that view or not, it is at least the way many people around the world see it. It probably is something that help Sybrina going through every single day.

     • When someone’s KILLED the family has as much ANGER as grief, if not more. They have to turn the energy of that anger into something useful, or it will eat them alive.

       They can’t fight who/what killed their loved one, to save them. They CAN fight to save a few others it might otherwise happen to.

       This activism is often seen in families of murder/kidnapping victims, and sometimes for those killed by cancer or some rare disease. Other people who are in agreement, but not motivated enough to devote their lives to it, will contribute financially, to make the fight more effective.

       They’d certainly not be sitting back laughing at the money rolling in. It’s blood money, every penny of it.

       • It just seems that Martin and Fulton are being exploited. They are coming out like greedy know nothings with strings being pulled by the anti-ALEC people. Why do they insist on showing pictures of TM as an adolescent when there are more recent pictures available? They are maximizing their grief. This cannot be healing for them because they have constructed a fantasy son.

         • With all due respect – I truly appreciate your comment – but that is the most absurd thing I’ve heard on this thread.

307. This is my first comment, after reading this entire blog. I want to thank you for an exceptional job! It feels like grown-ups are talking here unlike so many comment sections devoted to this mystery.

     Here’s my question: Is anybody else getting the same feeling I’ve been having, that Mr. O’Mara really, really does not want discovery released? He’s stated that he wants to redact witness names, however he has not yet offered any motions to the court to do this. Instead, a week after it should have been done, he’s just now saying he’s going to receive discovery next Monday, and then he wants to delay public release further while he goes over what he wants to get held back by the court. He’s also had George waive his rights to a speedy trial. My feeling about this is that while he wants desperately to delay discovery, and couldn’t afford to then find himself with no time to get ready before the trial because he’d dawdled so much at the inception.

     This is not a huge venue. I’m sure the principles in this case talk back and forth. I have a strong feeling that Mr. O’Mara knows that certain information will be released that will show indisputably that Mr. Zimmerman’s story cannot be true. Actually I’ve not had much faith that the Sanford police did much forensic work that night, but now, watching this extraordinary dance of veils being played out, I wonder.

     Could this be enough of a bombshell to start to dry up the flow of money coming in support of George on the new website? Hasn’t Mr. O’Mara just recently been shown this lucrative method of not having to work pro bono, as he had been doing? As each day goes by, lots of money is pouring in.

     Working under the convenient umbrella of: “we should go slow, and let tempers cool,” and “this could start a race war,” and other demonizations of honest public interest, this thing gets delayed and everybody gets paid. The normal right to a “speedy” trial, as an event that can lay controversy to rest, is subverted. This sort of speculation really makes me want to see discovery!

     • Marilyn, thank you for the comment. I can’t believe your eyes didn’t bug out — that’s a lot of reading!

       The delay in releasing these records — especially in Florida — has me scratching my head. Yes, it’s a high publicity case but if Zimmerman’s (different) stories from that night even remotely added up or if the case didn’t have some bombshells coming, I think we’d have already seen a lot more.

     • Yes, Marilyn, O”Mara is playing for time.

       A speedy trial is important — when the accused is being held in jail.

       He’s out on bail, the money is coming in, and a delay lets people maybe forget the kind of details we’re discussing here, for a better chance of getting an unbiased jury.

       Maybe they can choose judge only, no jury? A jury might be easier to influence with not-quite-relevant issues. But that applies to both sides equally.

       They’d be better off releasing everything now, get it over with, let the debate die down, THEN have the trial when potential jurors have forgotten the jumble of evidence.

       It’s not going to start a race war. The issue was the police being biased/prejudiced in not charging him. That’s now been rectified. There have been riots in the past over “wrong” verdicts, but those were cases where police were found innocent for beatings or killings that were actually caught on video. The evidence in this case is a hundred miles away from being that clear-cut.

       But it would be lovely if some resident there had a CCTV that recorded who chased who………..

       • Hi NLME, it took about a week to read, whenever I had the time. It has been a lot to absorb. Again, thank you for moderating such powerful discourse.

         And I’m grateful to you aussie for affirming that my perceptions appear to be an understood “lawyerly” strategy that Mr. O’mara is employing. Nobody was referring to it this way online, yet it seemed so obvious to me. He’s reached a fortunate plateau and he’s staying as long as possible.

         I also agree, it was police racism, not George’s, that raised public ire. This is a big reason why I am so avidly awaiting discovery. I’m still brain-swarmed with evidence, but wasn’t there one witness (who did not call 911) who “fearlessly” watched the whole thing from his balcony right over the site. He had a veritable box seat. My fantasy is that he recorded the whole thing.

308. Your revised diagram appears to be reasonably correct. We don;t know exactly where GZ truck was but the diagram is probably close. The yellow line is reasonable for GZ path. He ran past the last row of townhouses (east end) then the dispatcher told him to stop and the call ended. He had lost TM who probably took the walkway between the rows of townhouses headed to his home TM could easily have gone home which was the last townhouse on the south in the east row. GZ started to return to his truck retracing his path. As he got to the walkway between the two rows he was attacked from behind by TM. This is one possibility. Another is that he was confronted and advanced down the walkway where the fight took place. GZ lost site of TM. Why didn’t TM simply go home? He had ample time. None of us know what happened. When the official reports are released the attorneys will present the alternatives. We all should wait before making any judgement.

     • Well said – thank you for the comment!

     • James, I don’t pretend knowing the answer to your question about why TM didn’t run home, but I may talk about a personal experience similar to TM’s. That experience is at the root of my interest in GZ’s case.

       I was 18, back in Grenoble France, and I was walking back home at night from my university campus when I noticed someone following me by car. The guy looked really spooky not because of his physical appearance but because of his behavior. He was just driving really slow and bending over to stare at me while driving. Sometimes, he would accelerate and pass by me to turn and drive back toward me. He never exited his car though.

       It took me a little while before I really understood what was going on. I was totally unprepared to such situation. I had to improvise on the spot. It was like, should I stay on the main street or go through that unknown subdivision. Should I hide or should keep on walking. I had to make choices at every crossroads and you never really know where that choice will lead you to.

       One thing I clearly remember is that as I was approaching home, I started wondering whether it was a good idea to give the man any indication on where I was living. I have then decided not to go straight home. Instead, I made the choice to loose the guy by walking through subdivisions I would have never entered.

       I can’t tell what were the man’s intentions. All I know is that he never harmed me or at least didn’t had the opportunity to do so. Were my choices the right ones? They were good enough for me to stay unharmed and alive 22years later.

       Whatever choices TM made on that night, he was clearly wrong. I’m not blaming him for making the wrong choices unless we find out he decided to confront GZ giving his stalker the excuses for his wrong behavior.

309. this brought a tear to my eye…i wish i had even half of the class this lady has shown…

     http://secondchancecampaign.org/card/

     • It truly is extraordinary that Trayvon’s parents have been willing to share their unimaginable grief so publicly. Their hand was forced when no arrest came for the killing of their son, and they chose this difficult path to find justice.

       The fact they are willing to continue to help other victims is all the more remarkable.

     • It sounds like a commercial for the anti-SYG people. I think this family is being exploited by someone with a bigger agenda.

310. There was an interview with frank taaffe that i saw but can not remember where, and he walks through what he thinks happened with a reporter, based on what he was told by zimmerman. I have a few issues with it. He says that george was parked HERE and off in the distance you could see the sport club (only part of it)….but he didn’t explain how george could actually see what had happened around the corner that worried him enough to call the SPD. He was obviously following martin and then went further down the road and parked intending to watch him. And if he hadn’t spotted martin, then followed him before parking further down the road, what was he doing parked there?. That is not the target parking lot.

311. When you add up everything that zimmerman did, its reasonable to conclude he continued to follow/search for/chase TM. The forthcoming evidence will expose the lies that he has crafted. I think the scientific evidence will also counter zimmerman’s claims. There will be time gaps that will help him simply because he is the only witness since TM’s life was taken. This case will boil down to zimmerman’s inconsistencies and whether a jury will equate them to the logical conclusion… guilty of murder/manslaughter. I also believe that a witness may have seen zimmerman chasing TM… rememeber Zimmerman assumed TM was heading towards to back exit, so he likely headed that way hoping to cut him off from leaving (not realizing that TM is heading that way simply because his father’s girlfriend’s house happens to be near that
     exit. TM relaxes thinking he’s lost zimmerman which allows zimm time to get down towards the back gate. He corners TM and chases him North where they engage at the scene.
     If zimmerman takes the stand – he will have to “fill in” many new answers to questions that will undoubtably contradict what his initial story was.

312. Jo,

     this looks like it?

     http://newyorkcityguns.com/2012/05/51112-re-enactment-of-zimmerman-incident-video-by-abc7-news/

     With all the close-ups and cutting from one angle to another, it is not at all clear where the “here” and “there” Taaffe mentions actually are.

     But it does confirm GZ’s earlier stories (to others, which we only have second hand) that TM ran down the internal path. Taaffe doesn’t put any kind of timeline on it, just jumps from “kept a visual on him” (from the top of the path) to “when he returned to his vehicle he became the victim”. And then the “T jumped him here and beat his head against this path here…”

     Hogwash, all of it.
     a) no explanation of the over 2 minute gap from GZ’s “he ran” statement to the attack.
     b) On Taaffe’s version GZ moved a total of about 6 yards in those 2 minutes.
     c) therefore would have had full view of the path, so TM could not have sneaked up on him without being seen
     d) the spot where he demonstrates “he jumped him here” is just off the T in the path, not even level with the path-side wall of the first house, whereas the body was supposedly found outside “John”‘s place 2 houses down.

     The “parked here” partly adds up, with a background view of the clubhouse. It would be where GZ ended up parking to make the call, having earlier observed TM at the clubhouse, or, more likely, all the way along Retreat View from the western end
     (co? incidentally where Taaffe lives).

     Nobody has yet said what GZ told them about when he FIRST caught sight of TM. As far as we’ve heard, the whole story begins at the clubouse. But, as you say, in that case why was he parked there to observe him there? Did he drive up Twin Trees, catch a tiny glimpse of TM, and immediately stop to call the cops?

     From the scene where the clubhouse is visible, going on the side of the road Taaffe seems to be standing on, the truck would have been facing away from the clubhouse, further confirming he’s gotten there from Retreat View or the gate.

     But yes, from there he’d not see which way TM ran down that T junction. This is why a lot of us theorised that TM actually ran down on Twin Trees, and ended up back near the T only because GZ followed him (down and up again).

     It’s very hard to imagine anyone lying in wait for someone whose whereabouts and likely path he cannot know, as at one stage they lost sight of each other (according to both GZ and TM through DeeDee).

     I do wish they’d hurry up with releasing some more evidence.

     • Aussie,

       That was a FANTASTIC video — thank you so much!!! See update section of the blog posting.

       It’s absolutely crazy that this is a recent account of the crime scene by Frank Taaffe from around May 10th. A must watch!

       Frank Taaffe 100% confirms my most recent/ final map plus the fact that Trayvon and other teens cross by his back window frequently – see below!

       

       

       I can’t believe it! 2 discrepancies with Frank Taaffe’s story…

       1) The area at the T where he says the confrontation occurred. All other reports say it was south of the T (including the reporter in the above video).

       2) Trayvon didn’t circle Zimmerman’s vehicle. The timing would have been impossible per the 911 call.

       This is by far the most damning evidence against George Zimmerman and his Stand Your Ground defense. By the time he shot Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman should have been in his parked car waiting for Stanford Police to meet him. Instead, he stalked, harassed, and preyed upon an unarmed African American teenager.

       • Always pay attention to the little things, they mean a lot. The report says that the FBI has re-interviewed the witnesses and that more charges are being considered. If more charges are even under consideration, there’s something we don’t know that is even more incriminating than what has been released. More reason to suspect that O’Mara is seeking delay, to keep the donations rolling in as long as he can.

         Meanwhile Taaffe is talking like he has intimate knowledge? I now have to wonder if he had left his house and was on the prowl in the area while this was taking place. The way he’s talking could lead me to speculate: Perhaps a dark figure near TM’s house, could have caused him to turn back and try to escape that way. After all, he knows there’s only one person between him and the front gate, he can’t know how many there might be back near his house.

         So that’s another speculation that needs to be either found or cut off. I’m pretty sure the evidence trail will do it pretty quick, if it hasn’t already.

       • TO: NLME,

         Great catch! You’re busting Taaffe’s absurd assertions wide open. Why in the world has he continued to insert himself into this story?

         He’s starting to resemble “a wannabe cop/investigator”. Eerie, just too eerie.

         • I have NO idea. I also have no idea why O’Mara hasn’t literally begged Taaffe to shut the fck up already!

313. this map: https://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

     GZ has two possible routes out the front gate.

     One route he stays straight, bends to the right then straight and a left turn
     out the front gate.

     Route Two, straight for 50-60 feet, left turn, 100 feet, right turn, 200 feet,
     left turn, 60 feet right turn, out the front gate. ( distances not accurate, just the turns)

     Let’s see, GZ leaves home with nothing more on his mind than going to the store to get something he needs so much, that the rain isn’t a bother. He takes this winding route??? There probably should be stop signs at every turn, but even if their aren’t, you’ve still got to slow considerably to make them safely.
     So, it takes just a little bit longer, and there’s more maneuvering to do on route No. 2 than route No. 1.

     NLME, could you put distances and times for both routes so readers can
     compare the two? Because this hardly looks the way a casual trip to the store, in the rain, should look. End it with the approximate times to get out the front gate for each route.

     I remember staying with friends at Emerald Lakes in PA. We also had two ways to get to the store. The way past the mailboxes was the longer one, but, wouldn’t it be nice to pick up the mail and save a trip? Yet, when I was there, I remember we went for coffee, cigs and beer a few times, when it was raining, we cut out the mail trip every time to take the shorter route. Even if we knew there was mail, we’d get that on our way back. This, even though the store was open 24/7. Reason? People don’t want to have the mail in the car while they’re heading outbound.

     So, that’s what suggests to me that GZ may have gotten some notification about TM coming back from the store. If GZ takes the shorter route, he hasn’t as much of a chance to catch a person walking, as he would if he come down Twin Trees. But then… he has to know that the walker is headed for Twin Trees, and not going to turn south on Retreat View Circle, eh?

     But consider, TM shelters for 4 or so minutes before he continues to walk.
     Meaning that GZ has to wait some portion of that, before he can see the walker. This is what makes the driving times for both routes so important.
     It will show how much of GZ’s timeline (possibly) coincides with TM’s over the area where TM is visible. (Assuming TM uses the cut through near Taaffe).

     I think the readers will find such a map very intriguing to say the least.
     Just ball park the speeds, we don’t need high level accuracy here, just reasonableness. It doesn’t have to be a map either, just a sketch or
     schematic would be good. You do such a good job of handling distances and speeds etc., and we do need to past time while we wait.

     • Oh, before I forget, if you decide to do it, set the start time for GZ leaving his garage at 0:00 and the Time for TM leaving shelter at 0:00. That way we can see how it lines up first. Then we can discuss any adjustments.

314. http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

     This is the report showing the neighborhood at night. There is an interview with O’mara who is “in the process of buying” a house next door (to his house?) to use as a base of operations. More federal charges may be pending. After watching the first report, it appears this reporter is allowing Taaffe to hang himself.

315. So according to Taaffe, from GZ’s own mouth, TM did indeed circle GZ’s vehicle while GZ was on the phone with the dispatcher. No more speculation of what actually happened, GZ said it himself, TM circled the vehicle.

     Taaffe, Iet me enlighten you as to why your good friend GZ is fibbing to boost his own claims of self defense. Do you think for one moment GZ would have failed to mention this circling of his vehicle to the dispatcher if it had actually happened? Most likely TM walked straight past GZ’s truck because that was the route TM was taking home. TM at this point didn’t realize the actual dangerous situation he was in. And maybe TM looked at GZ as he passed the vehicle. From what DeeDee said, TM had caught on that he was being watched by GZ and TM was probably wondering what was up with the spooky dude in the truck. Here you have someone like GZ, hero in his own mind, who can give a detailed description of the ACTIONS of TM (acting suspicious, staring at me, coming towards me, hand in his waistband, coming to check me out, something in his hands etc..) and he FAILS to mention this suspicious character circled the truck? GZ even reports when TM starts to run. Oopsy, GM forgot to mention a main ingredient, that the asshole, punk/goon/coon thug he was suspicious of, CIRCLED his truck with him sitting in it. Give me a break.

     I am sure GZ had his gun drawn when he went down the dark pass searching for the thug that GZ just knew was out and about in his neighborhood and up to no good.

     I don’t care if it’s proven TM tried to grab the gun or that TM did get a few good punches on GZ, self defense holds true for TM but not GZ. I feel that once the evidence is released it will support that many of GZ’s claims of self defense and many of his claims about the actions of TM will be proven to be fibbing on GZ’s behalf to boost his self defense claim.

     Bottom line is, GZ’s statement to the police will have to match the evidence, not all the trumped up stories he’s told his family and Taaffe since he’s had time to think about it and trump it up.

316. It is going to be very difficult for the prosecution to prove Murder in the 2nd degree, beyond a reasonable doubt.

     In my opinion, the key piece of evidence in this case is the 911 call where the cries for help can be heard. We can clearly hear desperate cries for help in the background that go on for 45 seconds before the fatal shot is heard.

     If the prosecution can prove that it’s Trayvon who is crying for help, then those cries show very clearly that Zimmerman acted with “a depraved mind” and murdered a terrified teenager. Guilty of Murder 2, no question about it. It doesn’t matter how they came together or who started the confrontation.

     However, if it can be shown that it was Zimmerman crying for help, then that is very strong evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life. I don’t see how 12 jurors listening to those cries could all determine, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was not in fear for his life . Again, it doesn’t matter at this point who confronted whom or who threw the first blow. This is ordinary self-defense and “Stand your ground” is irrelevant.

     • Stand Your Ground absolutely isn’t applicable in this case since Zimmerman was stalking, harassing, and preying upon a teenager even after being told not to.

       Self defense with a fatal shot after a chase and mere wrestling match with an unarmed teenager returning to his house after a trip to 7/11? I don’t think that will float.

       2 experts say it wasn’t Zimmerman yelling for help…

       http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

       • …And, I understand the FBI is re-taking interviews of the various witnesses and doing their own forensics. My guess is that is available to the SP?
         Further, all it will take is some notification of GZ via the NW tree, that a black kid is wandering around, and out goes GZ’s claim that he was not on patrol.

         I already suspect that him going to the front gate, by the slower, more cumbersome route, that leaves him in the best position, in front of TM, sort of suggests that he already knew which way the suspicious person was going to be traveling. I just don’t get the feeling that the twisting route through Twin Trees, is the route of choice GZ would regularly use for trips to the store.

     • Your right, the State has to prove it was Trayvon screaming. As NLME points out, two independent voice analyzers don’t think it was GZ, and now the FBI has taken a crack at it. And we all know Sybrina Fulton’s reaction.

       I find it very odd that GZ, or anybody, would scream desperately for help as they aimed and fired a gun. TM fighting to keep the gun pointed away from him screaming is more believable.

317. I’m looking at the law and the evidence available to the public as objectively as I can. You’ve done an excellent job of acquiring and examining the evidence and you can make your case with facts, you don’t need to engage in inflammatory rhetoric, as in the term “stalking”. There was no “stalking”, at least by any legal definition. As for “harassing” or “preying upon”, those will be elements of the crime that the prosecution might need to prove in order to show Zimmerman was “of a depraved mind”, which is needed for a Murder 2 conviction.

     Even if everything you say about Zimmerman being the aggressor is absolutely true, he is still entitled to a self defense claim under Florida law:

     776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
     (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
     (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
     (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
     (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
     History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

     This is why I think the key piece of evidence is the cries for help on the 911 call. Listen to those cries for help. Can you honestly tell me that you are certain beyond a reasonable doubt, that those cries were NOT someone in fear for their life? I certainly cannot. Hence if it can be shown that it’s Zimmerman’s voice, it’s very strong evidence in favor of self defense. Likewise, if it’s Trayvon’s voice then it clearly shows Zimmerman acted with a depraved mind and murdered a teenager begging for his life; Murder 2. No other evidence is needed.

     Hopefully the prosecution will have done some voice analysis of it’s own as testimony from those two “experts” will never be admitted and I’m concerned that Trayvon’s mother’s testimony alone will not be enough.

     • So, I can stalk/harass/prey upon/etc. my unarmed neighbor (even after being told not to), take a punch or two (that I originally instigated), and then kill said neighbor when I feel vulnerable?

     • According to you a person who hunts down someone and then provokes force has a legal option of self defense. Meaning a person who follows a teenage girl could indeed claim self defense if that child is provoked to defend herself and the person feels in reasonable danger of great bodily harm. This mean a boyfriend who follows his girlfriend actually would have a legal claim to self defense, if he killed her even if he physically attacked her first and she was defending her own life. If this is true, the Federal government has every reason to intervene here to make sure criminals don’t get a free ticket home.

318. Prosecutor files evidence, witness list:

     http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-14/news/os-george-zimmernman-omara-gets-discovery-20120514_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-evidence-rachel-fugate

     • Thank you (again), tchoupi.caillou! I’ve published a new blog posting regarding the Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman court proceedings and trial:

       Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Evidence and Court Proceedings

319. It’s super annoying that this wordpress theme doesn’t allow us to reply to a lengthier chain of comments — I apologize.

     That said, I couldn’t reply to comments above where I asked if I should create a new blog posting for the George Zimmerman trial. I’ll make sure to add the following link to the “Update” section of the original posting.

     Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Evidence and Court Proceedings

320. Yes, the best you can do is reference the post number or use @whomever.

     Anyway here’s some news:

     Miami-Dade fire captain who posted about Trayvon Martin on Facebook demoted

     Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/14/2799190/miami-dade-fire-captain-who-posted.html#storylink=cpy

     • Thank you! I’ll be adding this shortly (tomorrow) to the update section.

321. “Stand Your Ground” Defense Fails in Separate Fla. Cases
     The controversial law at the center of the Trayvon Martin case fails to provide cover for a pair of defendants.
     http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/05/14/florida_black_man_denied_stand_your_ground_defense_highlights_controversy_around_trayvon_martin_case_.html

322. A medical report compiled by the family physician of accused Trayvon Martin murderer George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a “closed fracture” of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.

     However, the prosecution contends that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation after profiling the teen, who was walking home after buying skittles and ice tea. Based on the legal definition of profiling and why Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher why he thought Trayvon looked suspicous, the profiling theory isn’t going to wash. He was a nightwatch that was a part of his job to observe if he felt that someone was suspicious.

     • As I’ve said all along, I truly hope Trayvon kicked Zimmerman’s ass a little bit after being chased all over his neighborhood and before being fatally shot.

       Looking forward to seeing more pictures of Zimmerman’s face/head at the crime scene since the ambulance coming to pick him up was called off and there was no blood or latex gloves seen in the previously released Sanford PD surveillance video.

       Have you ever watched the movie 25th Hour? It’s one of my all-time favorites. Regardless, there’s a scene where a guy has his friends beat him up on purpose. I wonder if Zimmerman has ever seen it.

       • FURTHERMORE: Why go to an family physician when you have a broken nose, cuts so bad they should have had stitches, and back problems. He should have went to the ER. OH YA, he called off the ambulance. But no he couldn’t do that cause they would not exaggerate the injuries for him. It’s really not ROCKET SCIENCE.

       • As I have said all along there is no evidence that Zimmerman followed Trayvon one second more after the dispatcher stated, “we do not need you to do that”. There is plenty of evidence based on the map of the crime scene and the 911 call that Trayvon came back to the location where he was killed. The prosecution needed to show that Zimmerman instigated the fight by continuing to follow Trayvon, and Crump came up with the perfect girlfriend story, “Trayvon said that this guy is behind him “again” and he said that this guy is going to do something to him, but just seconds earlier he wasn’t going to run. The fact that this girl said nothing to no one about her telephone conversation with Trayvon, spells “BIG FAT LIE”. This kid is going to fall apart along with the prosecution claim that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher recommended that he stop.

         • “As I have said all along there is no evidence that Zimmerman followed Trayvon one second more after the dispatcher stated, “we do not need you to do that”.”

           You didn’t listen to Zimmerman’s 911 call, see my map and/or watch Taaffe’s walk through, eh?

       • No Longer Mass Emailing

         About a month ago or so, I posted here on your blog, that when the story was first released about the injuries, my immediate gut reaction was the confessed murderer caused his own injuries, either intentionally or accidentally.

         I strongly believe his injuries could have been caused by the kickback force upon discharging the gun, causing him to hit himself in the face, thus throwing him to the ground, causing his head to hit some hard or sharp object.

         Since I never received a response from you, I just figured you disagreed with my theory, or perhaps, you never saw my post.

         T.G.

         • Sorry about that! I absolutely missed it (I think) as this is the first time I’ve read such an analysis. It’s interesting. I don’t doubt it either. But, it’s nearly 100% impossible to prove (I think).

           Again, my apologies for not responding! If you emailed me, I try to monitor my bcclist.com inbox but definitely suck at doing so. Damn you, work. 🙂

       • Bottom line is, GZ’s actions on that night defy all simple, human, logical thinking. Considering recent reports from family physician of him being on combo of mood altering meds, it’s now clear the state of mind he was in.

         He’s all over the place with his account of what happened. One being that while on his way to his vehicle Trayvon came up behind and felled him with one punch then began bashing his head repeatedly on the sidewalk. Well, according to the witness whose identity is masked, recalls hearing the two engaged in a heated verbal altercation with GZ being the more aggressive person speaking. She’s on the phone with 911 during this time and at some point puts the phone closer to the window for the dispatcher to hear. Few seconds later altercation begins. Witness looks again, she sees the two in a struggle on the grassy part.

         Rest of us can only speculate as to who initiated the fight. My guess is Trayvon, after telling GZ to go f* himself(and who wouldn’t) probably attempted to walk away, but GZ pumped up on meds, and determined to not let him get away, tried to hold him for police. But instead, got more than he bargained for, and Trayvon whooped that butt! He enlisted the help of his neighbor/buddy John, to be a witness for when the cops arrived…but things got out of hand! Now if we are to believe John’s account of things, he says that the “two strangers” are in a struggle and the one on the bottom in red jacket is yelling to him, “Help Me”, his response to the “stranger”(really his friend), “Stop! I’m calling 911”. John then goes inside, locks door behind him and while heading up stairs to call cops, hears the gun shot. Here is why, I find him to not be credible. During his call to 911, not once does he mention that he was outside during the initial altercation. He acts as if he doesn’t know either party involved, and “fakes” being fearful with nervous laugh when he replies, “I’m not going out there”, and then his ‘shock and awe’ declaration that someone has been shot and appears to be dead. John’s call last approx 2mins. He’s then back outside in enough time to see GZ ‘wobble’ toward him, snap photo of back of GZ’s head, and notice the gunpowder stippling on Trayvon?! John is also same person GZ shouted to “Call my wife”. “What should I tell her asks John?” “Man, tell her I just shot somebody!”

         “LUCY!”…”YOU GOT SOME ‘SPLAININ TO DO!!!”

       • I completely agree with Sleuth. I also had that theory. I had read that type of gun can cause that kickback effect esp if someone is holding it too close to their own body.

       • TO: Tina

         I agree, especially about “John”. He must be a friend, how else would he know who the confessed murderer’s wife was. I also get the impression that “John” may actually be “Jeremy”, the name you hear a female caller saying over and over while talking to the dispatcher. At one point you hear her say, “Jeremy get back in here”. Maybe they were both making 911 calls.

         The confessed murderer asked his friend to call his wife. Do you think this is the same person who took the ABC photo of a bloody head?

         He also asked Mary and Selma to call the police. These ladies stated they did not see any blood on his face or head. I’m still trying to find pictures of a bloody face with black eyes in the information just released.

         I’m sure there are more 911 callers than the 7 released. I just have this feeling, of the 7 calls released, I believe the former teacher and the little boy Austin saw more than what is contained in the calls.

         If I recall correctly, the former teacher actually says, “I never thought I’d see somebody get shot. It’s just like something out of a movie.” And I also thought I heard her say, “Oh, that little boy”. “Why did he have to shoot him?”

         Now, regarding the “coded” voicemail message left on Frank Taaffe’s answering machine, please check out the link below, and let us know what you think. I think it will give you a better idea of what I was referring to. I would not be surprised if she’s already called or will be called to testify.

         Thanks.

         http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-leaves-supporter-friendly-voicemail/

         T.G.

       • TO: DEBORAH D.

         You’re absolutely right. The Kel-Tek 9mm is a very cheaply made gun that has tons of recoil. When they first came out on the market, my son sold quite a few of them. It wasn’t long before customers started coming in complaining about its frequent jamming. A few even experienced kickback. Kickback happens quite often, and can happen with any gun or shotgun, especially if improperly positioned.

         It’s just interesting that no matter how many versions the confessed murderer tells about how his minor injuries occured, state investigators have stated his injuries are inconsistent with the many different ways he claim they happened. They’ve also stated he’s lying. If you go back and listened to the Non-emergency call he made, you can clearly hear what sounds like a clip being slid into the chamber.

         Based on their years of experience of handling homocides, I would not be surprised if investigators come to the conclusion that it was kickback, or some type of self inflicted injuries.

         The doctor’s report only states the confessed murderer wanted a release to return to work. It makes no mention of the doctor being told anything about the murder he committed the evening before. Some doctors have seen and treated patients for minor injuries caused by kickback. His reported symptoms are very similar to those caused by kickback, i.e. back pain, headache, blackeyes, dizziness, etc.

         The photos of the confessed murderer’s face only show very superficial thin scratches, similar to being scratched up from hedges or bushes. The bridge and tip of his nose show what looks like mesquito bites or bad pimple marks, and seem to be in alignment with the thumb portion or butt of a gun. When the gun was fired, he could have been holding it too close to his face.

         If kickback is the cause of his injuries, or if they were self inflicted, I don’t think the state will have a problem demonstrating this. I can’t wait to see the bloody face and black eyes photos. It wouldn’t surprise me if O’Mara is planning an Insanity defense.

         Photos Released of Crime Scene

         http://www.wusa9.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=205732

         T.G.

     • Part of his job as nightwatch was to observe and REPORT if he felt anyone was acting suspicious. Not FOLLOW them. Not part of his job. And, yes, he did profile. Trayvon wasn’t doing anything wrong. He was walking home. GZ “profiled” that since it was dark, TM was young, black and wearing a hoodie he must be up to no good. GZ trumped up the actions of TM to prove to the dispatcher that he really had a thug in his neighborhood and the police needed to come and get him. Problem is, TM headed towards the back exit, not to flee but because where he was staying was near the back exit TM misread this as he’s fleeing I gotta go get him. GZ misread alot of things that nite and a teenager died because of that.

       • Well said!

       • …And we still have no idea where GZ’s wounds came from or when. We do know that there is a claim of a man in a white tee shirt on top of GZ. So there’s a question. There’s another question raised by a witness who saw GZ laying on the ground, separated from TM. So, when O’Mara releases this partial evidence, proving nothing of substance, but refuses to release the autopsy report, which would be more probative, we are led to go “Hmmmm”.

         All we’re getting is the selective release of information by the defense. That, on it’s surface, appears to be a self serving action. One that can only stir emotions in favor of GZ, without actually proving anything.

         We are being “whip lashed” with one sided releases. Not good for the defense if something even more incriminating should be released. O’Mara is playing a dangerous game with his client.

       • Sleuth, after reading over some of the actual witness statements released by the prosecution, I notice that there are two W/M witnesses. One who says that he only ‘heard’ the commotion and when he went outside that’s when he encountered GZ and asked if he was ok. I think also, this may very well be ‘flashlight’ guy, since witness John tells 911 that he sees people outside talking with GZ and they have flashlights. CNN or HLN also played his recorded statement with police and he says that when he went outside, GZ was winded as if he’d just gotten his “butt whooped”, then asks if he’s ok. Is this the guy who took photo and also called the wife, hmmm, hard to say now. Franke Taffee was one who said that he knows the guy that took photo and he’s friends with George. I figured he meant John. With that said, I still feel witness John, knows who started the fight but is purposely leaving that out. My issue with him is why is he giving written and verbal statements to police that he saw these two guys fighting, but didn’t know either of them.

         Also, don’t believe John and Jeremy to be same person. Unless Jeremy happens to be middle or nickname. I’d read an article that states his name is Jonathan Goldman.

     • NOTE: “A medical report compiled by the family physician” they better have X-RAYS and PHOTOGRAPHS to back that up, not that it matters! Trayvon thought this wierdo was going to kill him when he pulled that GUN and he fought for his LIFE! Get a Grip!

       • Now the prosecution must somehow prove that, rather then merely suggest it.

         • I think all the prosecution has to prove is that Zimmerman continued stalking, harassing, preying upon, etc. and eventually killed an unarmed teenager heading home instead of returning to his vehicle as instructed after the 911 call ended.

           For shiats and giggles, they can always prove in a court of law that the cries for help were from Trayvon and not Zimmerman.

           For even more shiats and giggles, they can (easily I assume) convince a jury that Zimmerman labeled Trayvon as a f_cking coon before shooting him dead.

       • @ Nila —

         “they better have X-RAYS and PHOTOGRAPHS to back that up, not that it matters!”

         Neither of those was presented as evidence. Times up for the Zimmerman camp! Family doc says Zimmerman should continue treating his wounds with plain old soap and water.

         • What a joke, soap and water to treat “life threatening head wounds”? Who ever heard of such nonsense!

323. Please understand, I’m not trying to take sides here, nor am I suggesting that Zimmerman is innocent. I’m only saying that with the evidence currently available to the public, it’s going to be very difficult to prove murder in the 2nd degree.

     There was no “Stalking”. Please see Florida law regarding stalking:
     http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.048.html

     The police dispatcher has no authority to give legal orders; Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to not follow Martin. Following someone is not a crime. Zimmerman had every legal right to be where he was, as did Martin.

     Zimmerman has not been charged with “Racial” profiling. The Federal Government has not charged him with a hate crime. I have seen no evidence at all that race played any part in this alleged crime. If you have some, please share it.

     Barring any unknown and overwhelming evidence of guilt, the prosecution will most certainly need to prove that it was Martin crying for help. This is also going to be very difficult. Testimony from Trayvon’s mother, will be countered by testimony from Zimmerman’s father, Trayvon’s fathers initial statement to police that the cries were not his son and the eye witness testimony of “John” saying it was Zimmerman crying for help.

     • Thanks you for the comment. Stalking, harassing, and preying upon an unarmed neighbor that has done nothing wrong is not legal. As for the hate crime, the federal government will indeed go after Zimmerman.

       http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/fbi-seeks-charge-george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/

       Did you miss the “f_cking coons” part of the call?

       • That 911 call has been enhanced several times and it has been determined that the word s “f-cking coons” was not there. The special prosecutor in her affidavit stated that there were no racial slur made by Zimmerman. I am a black person and I will say to another other black person get real this is not about race, and for all of those that want it to be about race are promoting hatred in this country and at the end of the day Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman are not going to be the only two injured in killing behind this. This country is dealing with enough, don’t promote hatred.

         • The FBI has something well-founded enough to consider hate crime charges. I’ll also guess they have the best enhancement technology available.

           Moreover, if not for the comment f_cking coons, there’d be no reason for the FBI to get involved.

       • Again, no “Stalking” took place. Stalking requires REPEATED malicious harassment.

         (3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and REPEATEDLY follows, harasses, or cyberstalks another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury of the person, or the person’s child, sibling, spouse, parent, or dependent, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

         I read that article and the FBI is continuing to investigate as they have been for several months now. Not to say that there isn’t any evidence, but the public has yet to see any evidence of “Racial” profiling or a hate
         crime.

         Zimmerman did not say “f_cking coons”. I refer you to the sworn affidavit of probable cause filed by the States Attorney. Zimmerman stated “these a$$holes always get away” and also said “these f_cking punks”.

         • I don’t think anyone heard punks. Or, goons. Or, cold. Or, whatever else Zimmerman’s team has claimed.

           “You can’t harass or prey upon your neighbor (that has done nothing illegal) in a stalking manner” is the long winded version of my statement.

           • @Lee:

             To refute that GZ was stalking etc., people like yourself, are confused about GZ’s actual status as a NW’er.

             Normally any citizen who is a member of that gated community, would have a right to be anywhere within it. The keys here are “any citizen” and “normally”.

             But there are things about GZ that are not “normal” and he is not just “any citizen member of that gated community”. He is, unlike everyone else, tasked with neighborhood watch duties, which he claims he was not performing at the time.

             But, while he was supposedly not performing NW duties, he spots a suspicious person, whom he properly (according to the training he has received) reports to the police. The police accepted his report and dispatched a police officer to respond and investigate! Now, this is where the rules, specifically designed to keep NW’ers within the bounds of the law, and prevent them from ruining any case that might be made, by interfering with the police investigation soon to be underway.

             That rule is for NW’ers NOT TO FOLLOW THE SUSPECT!!! GZ continues to follow the suspect, in direct violation of the rules of his NW command.

             GZ is detected by the suspect to be following him! At that point GZ knows that he has created a hostile situation, because the suspect is intrigued by GZ’s strange behavior which GZ has made no effort to conceal.

             So, instead of GZ ending the hostilities by identifying himself and explaining his conduct, he allows the hostilities to continue to escalate. It is his own conduct that he knows is causing the suspect to run! It never seems to occur to GZ that he, himself may be seen as a criminal, by a stranger, who also actually has a right to be there, that GZ is ignorant of!

             So it is that in this hostile situation that GZ has created and allowed to escalate, that GZ adds further fuel to the fire, escalates the hostilities even further, by again breaking the rules and leaving his vehicle to follow while armed!

             This results in a confrontation, during which GZ, again escalates the hostilities, by refusing to identify himself WHEN ASKED TO DO SO!!!

             It is GZ who has provoked these hostilities with an unarmed stranger, who actually lives in the community, has a right to be there and who has committed no crime! Nor has any crime been witnessed by GZ, nor has there been any crime reported to anyone!

             GZ’s own rule breaking actions have created a dangerously hostile situation, because GZ is carrying a deadly weapon, something he is not supposed to be doing, while he’s following a suspect he’s not supposed to be following! Then he provokes a physical self defense reaction, by refusing to identify himself, and explain his strange, rule breaking, behavior.

             Had GZ abided by the rules he was given, the hostilities need never have escalated and an innocent person would not have been killed, simply because GZ did not believe that he should let the suspect get away! GZ actually knew better because as part of his training he had been told what to do. Any reasonable person, interested in maintaining the security of the neighborhood, would have, at least, made the attempt to end the hostilities by identifying himself. Thus, it may be claimed that GZ was not interested in abating the hostilities he knew he was creating! GZ was angry and resolved that someone would pay for his anger.

       • Agreed!

     • Following someone with no legitimate purpose is harassment at the very least.

       Your own link states:

       784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.—
       (1) As used in this section, the term:
       (a) “Harass” means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
       (b) “Course of conduct” means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of “course of conduct.” Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.

       • Thank you!

         • George Zimmerman knew that he was causing a complete stranger distress! He continued to cause that stress to escalate, without any better reason, than that he assumed the stranger was a criminal! What he had to base this assumption on is anyone’s guess, but there is nothing at all to substantiate his feelings (unless, of course, he’s a racist).

           The only “clue” GZ has, that this might be one of those who “always get away”, is that the suspect is black! That’s the only thing that, in his history, has consistently been the case, that blacks always seem suspicious to him. Thus he is now “absolutely certain” that he has detected a criminal who he cannot let get away this time. With the color of the suspect being the only identifiable “clue” as to why he’s thinking that way! Because he has done this before! In fact, no one believes they can refute these facts, all they can offer is that there is a lack of substantial proof positive, that GZ is in fact a racist, and they point to GZ being of Hispanic decent himself, while failing to note that you’d not know GZ was Hispanic unless he told you he was.

           The evidence that he hasn’t told anyone, until it became “useful” to defend against a capital offense, is that the SPD even thought he was white! As, I am sure, he let many others believe until then. It’s what is called “passing”.
           Where a person of color with light enough skin, can pass as white and does so to take social advantages he would not otherwise obtain. (I have a brother who does this, he’s not racist, but he will pretend to be if it means he can continue to pass.) Then there are the more deranged people who attempt to totally become white, even to the extent of taking on a posture of being racist and even to the extent that they internalize it. Zimmerman appears to be one of these kind.

324. The “kick in the head” of this is… If TM had committed a crime he’d probably still be alive. If he’d, say stolen something at the store, he’d have been arrested and unavailable to be shot to death by GZ. That’s a very sad commentary on the state of things in Florida in general and Sanford in particular.

     Otherwise, it also demonstrates that GZ has some very bad and wrong ideas about those who “always get away”. If TM wasn’t one of those people who “always get away”, then who else was GZ following? He claims he’s not a racist, but, it turns out that, without any other reason for thinking TM has, or would be one of those people who “always get away”, he feels he cannot let TM “escape”. So the question is begged: “Mr. Zimmerman, what, exactly was it, that you believed Trayvon Martin was trying to escape from?”

     Or do you have some kind of crystal ball, that allows you to predict who will commit the next crime and/or where? After all, the only “universal predictor” we can see being used here, is the color of TM’s skin! So, Mr Zimmerman, just how many whites have you followed or reported as being suspicious? How many Hispanics? Germans? Russians? Pacific Islanders? Exactly what is the tally? The jury most certainly needs to know that, because most racists know better than to admit it.

325. You are looking at the legal definition of harassment. Harassment in and of itself is not a crime. However, it can be an element of “Stalking”: Any person who willfully, maliciously, and REPEATEDLY follows, harasses or cyberstalks another person.

     The other clause “and serves no legitimate purpose” also does not apply. Zimmerman, at least according to his statement and the initial call to the police, does provide a legitimate purpose.

     • I don’t agree with either statement.

       • It’s not a matter of agreement or not, it’s the law. Read it for yourself:
         http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.048.html

         • As your link suggests, you can’t aggressively harass/prey upon an innocent neighbor in a stalking manner thus instigating a fight and then shoot them when you feel vulnerable during said fight.

           If you’re suggesting actions similar to Zimmerman’s are legal in the state of Florida, the ramifications are going to be considerable as vigilantism would be considered covered under the law.

326. No Longer Mass Emailing:

     Frank Taaffe caught my attention during his first interview when he told the reporter his young friend was not supposed to be carrying a gun while on watch duty. He repeated this in subsequent interviews. Just thought it was strange for him to say that about someone he considered a friend.

     Then I noticed as Taaffe continued to do interviews after the confessed murderer left the “coded” message on Taaffe’s voicemail, he stopped making statements that his friend should not have had a gun.

     It just seemed odd to me, that Taaffe did not mention his son’s death not once while being interviewed. I thought it was some type of sick and twisted apology intended for The Martin family.

     Taaffe plays private message for the entire world to hear, makes his rounds of 15 seconds of fame, and never once tells people interviewing him, “I just lost my son” or “My son just died”.

     Then came the fake apology during bond hearing. “”I am sorry for the loss of your son”. Sound eerily familiar?

     http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-tells-trayvon-martins-parents/story?id=16177849

     “Hey Mr. Taaffe,” the message began, “This is George. Um, first and foremost, I WANTED TO SAY I AM VERY SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF YOUR SON, and, um, I can’t imagine what you must be going through. Um, secondly, I wanted to thank you for doing everything you’ve been doing. Um, I know you don’t have to, and I appreciate it, and you’re truly setting an example for me for the future of, uh, doing the right thing even when it’s tough, and, uh, I appreciate it. I’ll talk to you soon. Thanks.”

     http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/george-zimmerman-surfaces-in-voicemail-to-supporter.php#46838997

     Could this be the man in the white t-shirt? Frank just loves himself some white shirts.

     http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Seminole-County-FL/Frank-Taaffe.2787986.html

     http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=4726191

     http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=4917256

     I will continue with the remainder of this episode of the voicemail message in a seperate post.

     T.G.

     • Excellent point regarding the voicemail and apology to Trayvon’s family sounding eerily similar. Weird!

       Do you have any links where Taaffe stated Zimmerman shouldn’t have had a gun on him while on watch duty?

       • No Longer Mass Emailing:

         Weird? Whoa….it gets more than just weird. It gets pur-dee, outright scandalous.

         In the meantime, here’s 3 links about the future FDLE inmate #007 comments about his bff having guns while on watch duty. (smh)

       • Actually, the statement he made to Mr. Taffee and the Martins was, “condolences”…plain and simple!

       • TO TINA:

         YOUR MESSAGE:

         Tina Says:

         May 17, 2012 at 5:04 pm
         Actually, the statement he made to Mr. Taffee and the Martins was, “condolences”…plain and simple!

         ========================================

         Which murder investigation are you following? There is absolutely nothing “plain and simple” about the Trayvon Martin murder investigation.

         And definitely nothing plain and simple about the evil, deceptive and debased actions of Frank Taaffe and his bff, the confessed murderer.

         It were that simple, Frank Taaffe’s daughter certainly wouldn’t be putting her dad and his bff on blast.

         Go back and re-read my post about the voicemail message and follow the links this time.

         T.G.

         • “It were that simple, Frank Taaffe’s daughter certainly wouldn’t be putting her dad and his bff on blast.”

           Do you have link? Again, sorry I keep asking. We’ve all read a lot. 🙂

       • No Longer Mass Emailing:

         Oooops! I thought for sure I had already posted this.

         Check out this rant by Frank Taaffe’s daughter that I came across about 2 weeks. She’s 38 hot, and rightly so. There’s obviously no love between her and the confessed murderer, and she’s definitely not feeling a whole lot of love for a Dad. I really feel so bad for her.

         Meredith Taaffe outted her dad and the confessed murderer. She wants everyone to get her message out. I believe she could also be on the witness list.

         http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-leaves-supporter-friendly-voicemail/

         T.G.

         • Do you have the Frank Taaffe daughter link by any chance?

           I remember watching and/or reading about the voicemail Zimmerman left for Taaffe. I had no idea or forgot (?) his son passed in 2008 though.

           I’m taking a page from Zimmerman: My condolences for missing the comment(s) you posted.

     • No Longer Mass Emailing:

       The thing is Taaffe’s son died in 2008. Just proves the confessed murderer and his bff, have absolutely no respect for the dead, not even his own son.

       ow does a kid go from being an up and coming journalist and skater to getting a criminal rapsheet?

       Frank Taaffe’s sentiments on his son’s Legacy Page: “Will, My son and my life , I miss you each and every minute of each day that passes when you died , I will always love You until and can be with you again Love always your Daddy”
       Dad Taaffe (Sanford, FL)

       http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/orlandosentinel/obituary.aspx?n=william-christopher-taaffe-will&pid=117819577

       William Taaffe Mugshhots

       http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8104810/details/

       http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8033712/details/

       William Taaffe Rap Sheet: He was arrested and charged for the same charge as the confessed murderer, physical assault against an ATF LEO, amongst other charges.

       http://casesearch.marioncountyclerk.org/index.cfm?

       FuseAction=Home.CaseView&Case_id=1169152&CFID=2145717&CFTOKEN=25322682

       http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=5820295

       Will Taaffe’s MySpace Page
       http://www.myspace.com/taaffnug420

       Among Will’s “Interests” listed on his MySpace is “Getting Liquored up and committing hate crimes(its a blast i swear!). “

       T.G.

       • Hold on…

         Taaffe’s son died in 2008? I am stating the obvious here but they lived hundreds of yards away and definitely passed by each other – a great time for Zimmerman to exchange condolences – between the son’s death and Trayvon’s.

         Or, are they going to say Taaffe and Zimmerman didn’t see each other between 2008 and 2/2012? I’m guessing that will be an easy one to disprove.

         Or, lastly – maybe Zimmerman never knew Taaffe had a son that died in 2008. Yeah…sure.

         WTF?

       • Sleuth, you’ve jumped the gun about what I said. The statement, “I’m sorry about the loss of your son” is what you offer someone when you are expressing “condolences” and not an “apology”. that was the point I was making.

       • well i wouldn’t be surprised if the voice mail was a well orchestrated one. Maybe they discussed the issue of making george out to be a great guy, and sympathetic to the loss of someones child. Did taffe say what date he spoke to zim, was it before or after the recording. If it was before then it is definately a set up because he is not going to show concern about taffes son on an answering machine message if he had already had the opportunity to speak to him since the shooting.. gee look how cynical i’m becoming haha

       • Sleuth,

         Wondered if you happen to read statement from SPD investigator that talks about getting an anonymous call from a woman that states she knows GZ to be racists. They weren’t able to reach her to setup interview in person. Do you think this could be Taaffe’s daughter?

         • There was a YouTube video but I can’t find it now. The neighbor’s identity was protected but along with saying Zimmerman is a known racist within the community, “she” basically says in an accent (this could be used to protect “her” identity) what’s seen here…

           http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html

       • TO: Jo,

         No, you’re not being cynical. Thanks for seeing the point I was trying to make.

         You hit it right on the nail. Yes, it was well orchestrated. The confessed murderer even thanks Taaffe for setting a “good example” for him for the future.

         The story about the voicemail came out on 3/24/2012, Saturday, Taaffe says the message was left on his voicemail the day before, 3/23/2012, Friday.

         Frank’s daughter, Meredith, says her brother William Christopher Taaffee died in 2008 which I have verified via an obituary and court records.

         Incidentally, William was arrested for the same identical crime as the confessed murderer; assault on LEO’s, amongst other charges.

         Question:

         Why would Frank Taaffe make his rounds telling the world the confessed murderer SHOULD NOT have had a gun while on watch duty? What type of friend does that?

         http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/george-zimmerman-surfaces-in-voicemail-to-supporter.php#46838997

         (after listening to voicemail, scroll down to the comments section until you get to Meredith Taaffe’s name and read her rant)

         http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/orlandosentinel/obituary.aspx?n=william-christopher-taaffe-will&pid=117819577

         William Taaffe Mugshhots

         http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8104810/details/

         http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8033712/details/

         William Taaffe Rap Sheet: He was arrested and charged for the same charge as the confessed murderer, physical assault against a LEO, amongst other charges.

         http://casesearch.marioncountyclerk.org/index.cfm?FuseAction=Home.CaseView&Case_id=1169152&CFID=2149002&CFTOKEN=33841557

         Type in: Taaffe Francis
         http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=5820295

       • Tina,

         Yes, I did read that statement. I also heard the recordings they played of several witnesses during the broadcast on my local news station last week. The one I heard on the news played a recording of a female saying he was a racist. Then she sounded as though she started breaking down crying, and stated she was in fear of her life, and afraid to tell the horrendous things he did to her, or something along those lines.

         No, I don’t think it’s Taaffe’s daughter. I didn’t see her name on the witness list that was just released, although I saw her dad’s name on it, not to say she won’t be called to testify, especially about her the message she posted.

         State investigators would have no problem locating Meredith. If you read Meredith’s rant/message, or “righteous rage” you probably noticed, she wanted her message to get out, particularly her apologies/condolences to the Fulton/Martin families. She even penned her real name to her comments.

         The 3 people who come to mind are:

         1. Taaffe’s ex-wife, Susan, the mother of William and Meredith. She would definitely know the intimate details of Taaffe’s life, those involved in his life, and the drug and criminal history of both he and his sons, Vincent and Will, and the true cause of his son, Will’s death. I did notice in Seminole Public records, Judge Kenneth Lester was the presiding judge in one of Frank Taaffe’s domestic violence cases.

         2. The ex-girlfriend/fiance’, Veronica Zuazo, who took out a restraining order against the confessed murder. If you go to his MySpace Page, you’ll see where he states,

         “Im still free! The ex hoe tried her hardest, but the judge saw through it! Big Mike, reppin the Dverse security makin me look a million bucks, broke her down!

         Sounds as though he’s basically implying some type of harrassment or threats were used.

         3. The lady the confessed murderer’s former co-worker witnessed being thrown across the room, which caused her to break her ankle while they were providing security at an illegal adult party.

         T.G.

         • “The one I heard on the news played a recording of a female saying he was a racist. Then she sounded as though she started breaking down crying, and stated she was in fear of her life, and afraid to tell the horrendous things he did to her, or something along those lines.”

           That’s EXACTLY the interview I’m talking about! I can’t find the YouTube clip now. Do you remember the local station that conducted the interview? The station info could help…YouTube’s search is not good but once you pinpoint the YouTube channel, it becomes much easier.

327. I fell like I’m constantly opposing you and that is truly not my intention. You might think that I am a Zimmerman supporter; I am not. I am neutral and am continuing to weigh the evidence against the law, and will continue as new evidence comes to light.

     Zimmerman has not been charged with “Stalking”, let’s leave it at that.

     Hypothetically speaking, if Zimmerman’s account is completely true (and I’m not saying it is), wouldn’t you agree it is self defense?

     Also hypothetically speaking, if you’re version of events is true, then I completely agree that Zimmerman is guilty and should receive the maximum sentence.

     • I mean – it is a debate. I don’t agree with you interpretation of the law.

       Zimmerman is not being charged with stalking — that is correct. My contention and how I understand the law is that you cannot be acting in an illegal manner and have self defense and/or Stand Your Ground save your ass.

     • Hi Lee,

       If I understood The Closer correctly, she was only required to file the minimum in the Probable Cause Affidavit in order to make an arrest and a charge of 2nd degree murder.

       She also stated more charges could be forthcoming.

     • The point of the maps created above is to prove that Zimmerman’s account CAN’T be true. Sure, if we were working in some make believe world where Zimmerman’s account was true, and he was attacked and his life was threatened by someone, he would under the law have the right to shoot that person. Whether you agree with the law or not is irrelevant, that’s how it is.

       HOWEVER, Zimmerman’s account states that he was heading back to his truck, which he was due east of. The shooting occurred south of where he was at when the 911 call ended. He lives in the neighborhood and is the neighborhood watch captain. He clearly knows the neighborhood and knows the terrain, so the fact that he shot Trayvon several hundred feet south of the route between where he was and where his car was at proves that he could not have possibly been traveling back to his car.

       Beyond this, he also lied about needing stitches, as the pictures released today clearly show. He also lied about believing Trayvon was the same age as he was, as he clearly stated Trayvon was a teenager during the 911 call.

       So Zimmerman’s account of the events cannot be true, and Zimmerman has a proven track record of lying about the incident. To add to this, despite hundreds of thousands of dollars poured into digging up dirt on Trayvon, his detractors have yet to find a single violent incident in Trayvon’s past. On the other hand, Zimmerman has a civil and criminal history of violent interactions.

       • You have just recapped my blog postings pretty well – thank you for the comment!

328. NLME,

     I just wanted to say that this blog has been a great alternative to other online blogs where the discussions always vere off into debates about racism. I have read the entire blog but this is my first time posting a comment. I just wanted to share what I found on the 18th Circuit’s website today regarding the Discovery.

     Who do you think witness number 8 is in the state attorney’s discovery exhibit posted online?? At first I thought it must be GZ’s wife, but that can’t be right. I don’t think wives can be forced to testify against their husbands. I believe that witness number 8 might be the person that gave GZ the heads up that Trayvon was walking through the neighborhood looking suspicious. The person’s phone records are dated from Feb 26th – Apr 2nd. (Section K)

     Click to access CJC3rdFlCScan20120515084012.pdf

     • Was it Dee Dee? That was my assumption. I apologize if it’s already be said witness #8 isn’t Dee Dee — I haven’t been able to keep up-to-date.

329. Lets look at the bigger picture no race involved. Do you think its ok to follow/stalk/pursue or instigate a confrontation and if that person defends themselves you have the right to shoot and kill? No matter how you look at it that is what you are basically saying. Where is TM rights in all of this him having a broken nose and black eyes mean nothing because we knew there was fight. Also look at the map that show where GZ truck is parked and where the shooting happen just use logic how did GZ ended at the spot of shooting if he was walking back to his truck this means not only did TM attack him it means he dragged GZ to that particular location.. his story sounding very suspect to me.

     • Thank you for the comment but I sort of can’t understand it. You think Trayvon attacked Zimmerman and then dragged him to the shooting scene?

       • In semi-literate English, sweeptheleg is stating that Zimmerman’s account is only possible if Trayvon not only attacked Zimmerman, but then proceeded to drag the nearly 200 pound man 150 feet prior to being shot. So sweeptheleg is pointing out this is not really a credible argument being put forward by Zimmerman.

         Also, sweeptheleg is stating that even if Zimmerman’s account was more or less correct, Trayvon was stalked and confronted by a 28 year old man, so wouldn’t Trayvon have the right to fear for his life in this situation, and thus defend himself against Zimmerman? And if this were accepted as the account, should someone be able to essentially instigate a fight by stalking and confronting a child, and then use lethal force when the ensuing fight does not go their way? So even if Zimmerman’s account were more or less correct, self-defense seems like one hell of a stretch.

         • I got it now. Thanks for the assist.

330. It seems that Dr Drew, thank goodness, has said that allegedly, Zimmerman was prescribed two medications one of which can alter your state of mind, as they affect one neurologically. It can also make you aggressive as a side effect. We would have to know how long these meds stay in the system and when GZ last doses where, so of course he may have some wiggle room to get out of the fact that he was potentially influenced by his PRESCRIBED meds. Add to that , the fact that he wasn’t tested for toxicology ( alcohol mixing perhaps?– who knows). Of course the big deal is that TM has a TRACE amount of marjuana. Mostly pot mellows people. If Trayvon did get aggressive, he was fighting for his life esp if the gun was unholstered and pointed directly at him.

     I hope we get that crying voice analyzed, bc if it can be proved it was Trayvon, then we can see he was asking for assistance, poor young man, it still breaks my heart.

     I have always felt that Zimmerman sounded odd when he called the dispatcher, he sounded flat, no emotion, his eyes look vacant, just look at his photos and see him on tv, disconnected. In addition, I wish an expert would consider that he has a mental health illness such as Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. For someone with this diagnosis , seeing people on his property who he thought shouldn’t be there could make him anxious and feel out of control……. thereby leaving him no choice almost, but to get them off his property. He likely did not identify or discuss with Trayvon who he was which clearly makes me wonder about his state of mind. This is supposedly a future college graduate who could not articulate a conversation? He had taken anger management courses, and he probably took some psychology and communication classes I would think, if he was going to eventually go into the field of law.

     What about the fact that he makes decisions on his own without consulting his lawyers or heeding their advice such as setting up a website, and offering an apology to TM parents in court when his lawyer suggested he not do so? He has delusions of grandeur….. coasting perhaps on his Daddy’s coattails and feeling this false of security bc Daddy was connected.

     In some ways, I feel sorry for Zimmerman bc i think he needed help psychologically and he didn’t get it or, the system failed him. But don’t get me wrong, I cannot help but side all along with Trayvon. I too felt that had Zimmerman stayed in his car, we would not have had a victim. A young man, talking on the phone with his girlfriend, maybe giddy with love, idly walking back to his father’s place in the rain, taking his time to connect with his friend. So many of us did this at his age. Zimmerman would have scared me if he had approached me…. I feel he looked like a thug with the way he was dressed. AND, had i been given the opportunity to “profile” him, I would have thought he belonged to a Hispanic gang and he was after me! i would have run like the wind or frozen in fear or I would have fought him biting him, kicking and clawing him, yelling fire ( not help bc people supposedly respond to the word fire more). Adrenalin is a hormone and neurotransmitter so when one is under attack it is flight or fight. Clearly, based on witnesses accounts Trayvon tried to do both. I don’t believe Zimmerman attempted to walk away at any time. He was in pursuit and felt in power and control with his gun. He wanted a trophy for himself, akin to a hunter.

     I just had to write all of that.

     • Thank you for the comment! Didn’t the family doctor say Zimmerman should consult with his psychologist about the shooting? I wonder what Zimmerman’s psychologist has to say about him — pre and/or post shooting.

       I believe – but could be wrong – you can’t carry a concealed weapon in the state of Michigan if you have a documented mental illness, alcohol related arrest, etc. I wonder what the law is in Florida but I’ll have to search tomorrow — I’m zonked. If it’s similar to Michigan’s law, I wonder if the psychologist has ever documented any mental illness for Zimmerman? And, when?

       • No Longer Mass Emailing:

         It would not be surprising if the prosecutors have documentation of mental illness. During the bond hearing DA Bernie de la Rionda asked the dad if his son had a psychiatric history. Traditionally, lawyers usually don’t ask questions they don’t already know the answer to.

         From the transcript:

         DE LA RIONDA: Okay. But I was inquiring prior to that in terms of whether he had filed any psychiatric history or anything?

         R. ZIMMERMAN: No.

         http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.01.html

         T. G.

331. On the new photos released today Zimmerman’s nose and head looked pretty beat up and bloody at the police station. Notice the two symmetric bruises on the forehead right above his eyes. They correspond to Trayvon’s thumbs digging in pretty deep while cupping the curbee’s head.

     • Thank you! I posted the link to the Zimmerman – Trayvon Martin document dump but need to get some sleep. Do you have a link to the jpegs or images of Zimmerman’s injuries as they are presented in the evidence document?

     • I guess that means they’ll find GZ’s blood on Trayvon’s hands, under his fingernails and on the front of his hoodie where he grabbed at his chest.
       We’ll be looking for it.

     • There is no mention of any DNA evidence under Zimmerman nor Trayvon Martin’s fingernails. So far we know Trayvon had a small 1/4 inch injury on his left hand ring finger. No other bruises on Trayvons body or hands as noted by funeral director.

     • I don’t know if you’ve ever been in a fight, but I’ve been in plenty in my life. I’m not proud to say it, but it’s true. I was also quite accident prone as a child and had stitches in my head on 4 separate occasions. In 97% of the population, the blood wouldn’t even be visible in this case, because most of us have hair. With serious head wounds, there is so much blood that pretty much all the hair is matted down. If it’s so bad as to require stitches, the blood continues running unabated essentially forever.
       This is precisely why doctors use stitches. They are not a cosmetic enhancement, they are used to close wounds that will not close on their own. The pictures in question were taken about half an hour after the incident, and the wounds have stopped bleeding. The blood seen is no longer flowing, it has actually dried.
       These wounds are quite superficial as far head wounds are considered. Had Zimmerman been, “curbed” as one poster suggested, he would not have had small lacerations in the back of his head. He would have had open gaping wounds where his head and been split like a grapefruit. Concrete is very hard and unforgiving, and far rougher than sandpaper. Any forceful impact with it, including simply falling on it, would cause a very serious wound that would not stop bleeding by itself. However, simply scraping against it while in a scuffle would cause small lacerations due to the unforgiving sandpaper like texture of the surface in contact with the very soft and delicate human skin.

       • In my opinion, GZ’s wounds don’t seem much at all.

       • Yes, and add that GZ has, what appears to be actual small cuts on his head. So, from what you’re saying about head wounds, I have to guess that without blood flowing in wounds, supposedly photographed within minutes of them happening, they should not appear to be anywhere near dried. Hardly a wonder GZ then, wanted to keep medical professionals away from his head early on.

         These wounds, by everything I’ve been reading so far, posted by many people and on various websites, seem pretty darned “old” in the photo taken, supposedly just minutes after the fight.

         Okay, so say they were as old as some are guessing they are.
         If they’re 10 minutes old, that would put GZ in his car?
         If they’re 15 minutes old, that would put GZ back at his house?

         @NLME, you, no doubt, by now, have taken notice that I suspected
         GZ may have carried his wounds from his house. That was not baseless speculation, even though we didn’t have pictures of his wounds back then.

         All I had to work with was the question: “Why in the world would a person not want, the very evidence they are relying on, not professionally examined and documented”?

         I could dream up a whole lot of answers to that question, and I actually did.
         But I had to discard all but the one that said, “perhaps the wounds would not have borne out GZ’s story”.

         Unfortunately, the thing that makes this clue seem offensive, is that it requires cooperation of the police, to keep the medics away. How that cooperation comes about is anyone’s guess, maybe they’ve not seen fresh head wounds before? Maybe they’ve not been trained to process crime scenes? Maybe they just wanted to get home after their shifts were over, they were tired and would simply do whatever it took to speed things along.
         Maybe they just don’t like accompanying people to the ER. After all it’s not a very nice place.

         Of course, it’s a matter of preference over duty. “Duty”, really suffered that day.

332. http://www.theroot.com/buzz/video-trayvon-7-eleven-his-death

     Although the part of the clip showing Trayvon walking is short, you can see he walks normally, he handles getting his money efficiently. I doubt Z saw him walking “oddly”.

     • He looks a little nervous to me, he is looking back over his shoulders toward the door. He is swaying back and forth while at he counter, it takes him forever to count his money. He is dropping money on the floor and then he forget where the door is.

       • He looks a little bit like a teenager caught in a rainstorm and trying to get some snacks.

         • People all do inexplicable things in stores, he’s in a hurry? Maybe he’s still on the phone? It’s been raining, he wants to get home, preferably without getting wet? In any event, he wasn’t looking behind for cohorts or witnesses, since he wasn’t planning on robbing the store. Perhaps he might have been trying to think if there was anything else he wanted.

           Why are people trying to impute even possible criminal things to innocent behavior that has already been proven to be just that: “Innocent behavior”!
           Did GZ witness any of this “suspicious” behavior? Could he somehow have based his suspicions on what TM was doing at the store? Hogwash, plain and simple. Hogwash.

       • You are right but it doesn’t seem so odd when you see it play in regular speed. Anyway, at having just been 17 for 3 weeks, he may have gone through an enormous growth spurt making his handling of money clumsy, add to that awkwardness of reaching into those jeans placed so low on his hips. Swaying back and forth could have been just boredom. Yes he looks outside but how do we know it is not to see a noisy car go by or watch someone parking? Or someone walking by? I suppose then the full toxically report comes out perhaps then we can suspect odd behaviour. I happen to be distracted when in a store for the first time, looking around to buy other things, and i get confused with directions, like where the door is. Some people have issues with direction.
         As for the hoody, I’d have it on to protect my cell phone from the rain, why bother to take it off for a few minutes????

       • 1. He reaches into his pocket, and takes out cash.
         Then finds out the amount, and says he has change.
         2. Reaches into pocket for change. Pulls out change. Looks at change and it’s not enough.
         3. Reaches into pocket again, and something is in the way of getting the change (cellphone? something else?) and he passes it to the other hand & some change falls.
         4. Gives clerk exact change.
         5. Then he says “Hello?” on his cell phone (which may have been vibrating while he was finding his change), but no one is there anymore, so he puts his phone away.
         6. Takes the bag of items.
         7. Goes to leave
         8. Remembers that the change he dropped rolled towards the back of the store.
         9. Goes back and picks up the coin.
         10. Not sure what the last motion/look to the side of the store is… but I know I do this type of thing all the time:
         Maybe: Should I get another soda for little bro? Nah, he’s OK.
         Maybe: Sees a door and wonders if it could lead to the back and be a shorter way to go home from here. Nah, it’s just going to the back room.
         Maybe: Should I use their bathroom, it’s a long walk home? Nah, I’ll make it.

         Then he leaves.

       • Reports state Trayvon had been in Sanford for at least the past 7 days on this trip, and had been a visitor on many occasions prior to this last visit.

         The 7-11 appears to be the closest convenient store. Teenagers buying snacks, junk food is nothing unusual, and this is probably not the first time Trayvon patronized this store. Some of the store clerks may have even been familiar with him.

         What I find most interesting, that despite his appearances, he was not deemed “suspicious” by any of the store clerks, and he managed to leave the store without the clerk calling a Non-emergency police phone number or 911 reporting a suspicious person.

         Why? Because there was nothing suspicious about what Trayvon was doing.

         I think Southland Corp. still owns 7-11, and they have an extensive training program for their clerks regarding what to be on the look out for as it pertains to potential security risks.

333. Your analysis is great! There are larger nagging questions in my mind though. Trayvon had been a resident of the complex for a week. Why do I have the feeling that the Neighborhood watch captain, being the neighborhood watch captain, had seen Trayvon earlier in the week and knew that he was a guest in the community. I would think a new 6 foot three black person walking around the complex eating skittles and going to school daily would have been noticed. I hope they ask some questions to find that out. Because obviously, then what possible reason would George Z have at all? All they need is one witness that saw George See Trayvon before that encounter and they can call it Murder One. By the way, his wounds don’t look like what you would get in a sidewalk scuffle getting punched in the face, or on the lawn.

     • I agree , how could Z,
       how could he NOT be aware a 6’2 ” or more, athletic ( and might I mention good looking and feel well kempt boy/young man) be a guest at this complex. Especially since there had been so many robbers at this location????

334. He wasn’t going to school, he’d been suspended.

     But his father did say he’d been there before and played football with other kids who lived there. So he’d have been outside, visible, if anyone looked.

     Of course kicking a ball around in daylight and sunshine, he’d look different (and like he’s belonging there) than taking the back shortcut in pouring rain, hidden by a hoodie.

     So even if GZ had seen him before, he’d have a big chance of not recognising him.

     Could as easily been any other neighbour walking in from a broken-down car… except they’d have had a chance of recognising GZ, and therefore not being afraid of him.

     Rich, i don’t think anyone really believes the injuries anymore.

     You don’t need to be injured at all to feel afraid. But it you’re relying on your injuries as evidence of being attacked, it’s strange to resist having them documented. Sure, his own doctor next day, but he advised to go to EMT and he didn’t. No x-ray.

     Did his own doctor give him the bandages he showed off next day? where did he get those?

     • There’s a very big difference between going to your pvt doctor the next day, and having the wounds observed by a medical pro, minutes after they occurred. I believe that the difference is, that if the medics at the scene saw these wounds, they would probably be saying that they looked several more minutes older than they were supposed to have been.

       For example, they might have expected to see blood still flowing, as opposed to stopped and or dried in places. They’d, of course, clean the wounds and then have an opportunity to look at the edges. Where signs of drying or healing would place the wounds too many minutes earlier to support a story that’s going to be called into question anyway, because GZ just doesn’t have a straight story to tell.

       Of course, I had to ask myself: If TM saw blood on the guy in the car, why would he not have told gf on the phone? But, perhaps he couldn’t be sure of what he saw, Males don’t like to alarm women because, women begin to panic and offer suggestions that probably aren’t good defensive actions from a man’s point of view.

       A man will want to engage his fears, because he knows they’re likely to persist, and won’t simply vanish just because you think you’ve escaped.
       But by staying engaged, you may get opportunities you’d otherwise miss.
       Women don’t see it that way, because they’re not “battle or defense minded”. So TM didn’t want to escalate gf’s fears any more than he had already. He certainly would not want her to go hysterical, as she probably would have if he’d mentioned that he thought he saw blood on the strange man.

       • I would guess the wounds were almost definitely from the altercation with Trayvon. The odds of him having some violent altercation that caused the wounds just prior to the incident with Trayvon is a stretch. Add to this that the medical examiner did document bruising on Trayvon’s knuckles, so the clear conclusion is that Trayvon most certainly did hit Zimmerman.

         However, striking someone does not justify that person shooting you, and does not mean that you started the altercation. Anyone that has ever been in any sort of a fight, take a second to think back: How did the fight start? With the exception of being mugged or jumped, which is typically either personal or about money, neither of which applies to this situation, a fight typically starts first with a verbal confrontation. It then escalates to pushing/shoving, and then finally to fists being thrown. I guess in this case it escalated one further step to a gun being fired.

         Based on this basic idea, there are still dozens of different situations that could have occurred. Assuming Zimmerman started the altercation, his self-defense is clearly shot. If Trayvon started the physical portion, it becomes much more murky. If Trayvon felt threatened by some weird 28 year old following him around, does he have the right to strike back due to what could be considered a reasonable fear for his life? If he feared for his life, and struck Zimmerman, would that then give Zimmerman the right to fear for his life and shoot Trayvon?

         How much weight should be given to Zimmerman’s story? He lied about needing stitches, lied to the 911 operator about no longer following Trayvon, and the altercation occurred 200 feet south of where he claimed he was walking. Beyond this, he has multiple documented violent incidents in his past, and Trayvon has no history of violence.

         As for the drying of blood, superficial wounds will clot, stop bleeding, dry, and start to heal within about five minutes of occurring. Serious wounds are too large and will not clot and stop bleeding on their own. His wounds are superficial, and the fact that the blood has stopped flowing and dried is not surprising, but is not consistent with being “curbed” or the incident being so violent as to cause one to fear for their life.

335. The investigator said the tragedy was avoidable.
     Apparently whoever is making this statement have not listened to the 911 call, because if they had they would know that Zimmerman had already exited his truck and had followed Trayvon for 26 seconds or more before the dispatched detected that he was following Trayvon and said, “we do not need you to do that”. The evidence shows that Zimmerman was following Trayvon “before” the dispatcher made his comment about not following. Why did Zimmerman exit his truck and follow Trayvon? The dispatcher tells Zimmerman, “let us know if this guy does anything else”. What does that mean to Zimmerman, “let us know if this guy does anything else”. What would that mean to any reasonable thinking person? When Trayvon ran, Zimmerman alerted the dispatcher that he is running. In order for Zimmerman to let the dispatcher know of anything that Trayvon does or continues to do Zimmerman was going to have to exit his truck and keep Trayvon in his line of vision, and that is why Zimmerman exited that truck in the first place because he had been told by the 911 dispatcher to let them know if Trayvon did anything else. If you place a 911 call for EMS during that call the dispatcher asks what is the person during, how is the person reacting, you cannot answer those questions unless you remain in the room and keep an eye on the person, it is as simple as that. The words of the dispatcher, “let us know if this guy does anything else” is what put Zimmerman in the frame of mind that made him think that the dispatcher want him to watch Trayvon and let him know if Trayvon did any thing else. Zimmerman called himself being a cooperative NW nothing else and nothing less. This is shown by Zimmerman actions when the dispatcher says, “we do not need you to do that”; Zimmerman responded by saying OK; his breathing returned to normal and he tells the dispatcher, “he ran”. Zimmerman demostrated a very cooperative attitude from following when he thought that is what the dispatcher wanted him to, and stopping when the dispatcher said, “we do not need you to do that”.

     • Zimmerman definitely should have been waiting in his parked vehicle when the police arrived.

       • Exactly… People are ignoring the fact that it was impressed on GZ, that as a NW’er he was expected not to follow and not to carry a firearm. Thus, he should have known, and probably did know, that following a suspect would have a very negative impact on what the Police would be able to make of the investigation, GZ had asked them to come and conduct.

         It’s like calling the police because you’re at a crime scene, then before they can get there, you start washing the crime scene down and destroying the evidence. Why would you do something like that? The only conclusion the police would find reasonable is: You, yourself were somehow involved in the crime!

       • Zimmerman didn’t break any laws by getting out of his parked vehicle, don’t say murdering Trayvon because he hasn’t been convicted of that. Even if he followed as some of you would have it, Trayvon was clearing hid out of Zimmerman sight, he should have stayed hid and used his phone to call 911 but instead Trayvon took the law into his own hands when he exited his secure hiding spot and walked back over to the sidewalk where the altercation took place. Don’t blame stupidity and a bad boy wannabe attitude on being a teenager, many 17 year old teenagers would be highly insulted by you suggesting that Trayvon’s behavior that night was that of a normal teenager. I have 207 teenagers daily and we have read this blog and over 99 percent of them closed their computers LOL after reading some of the posts on this site. The viewed the 7-11 video on Friday, and all of the guys LOL and was saying “that mug is stone”. I have worked with teenagers for 36 years some of them being troubled teenagers, over 90% of them being black teenagers so I think I know teenagers.

         • He did break laws by harassing and preying upon an unarmed teenage neighbor in a stalking manner.

       • Wow Nora…. you’re astonishing.

         You say we can’t call Zimmerman a murderer, because he hasn’t been convicted.
         Then you proceed to say that Trayvon was in hiding, which has most definitely not been proven, and only Zimmerman makes this claim.
         Then you say Trayvon came out of hiding and took things into his own hands by attacking Zimmerman. This is again based solely on Zimmerman’s word.
         You then go on to say that Trayvon’s behavior was not that of a normal teenager, and that a normal teenager would be insulted, but give no examples of his behavior in the video that is somehow suspect.

         So to respond to this:
         A) Zimmerman killed Trayvon, and this is completely not in question. Many of us view that as murder, that is our opinion and we have every right to express it.
         Based on your proclamation that you cannot be a murderer unless convicted, I’m sure you have never once in your life referred to OJ Simpson as a murderer, right?
         B) None of the statements you state as facts are facts. They’re simply just restating what Zimmerman claims took place. If we simply took the word of accused criminals and accepted everything they said as fact, then there would be no reason for trials, and our jails would be empty.
         C) Whenever says statements like they work with tons of troubled teens, and 90% of them are black, or any ridiculous statements like this…
         The implication is clear and everyone can read what you’re actually saying.
         D) You have ignored the entire purpose of this website: How can Zimmerman’s statements be true if he claims he was returning to his truck, claims he was attacked from behind, but actually had the altercation 200 feet south of any location he was ever known to be during the phone call?

         So your juvenile, fact free, racist post can be easily dismissed by anyone with the ability to think critically and rationally examine the evidence.

         (And just so we’re clear, I’m a white ex-suburbanite. Unlike you, I’m not just defending those like me and attacking anyone that is different. I’m not prejudging and convicting a poor 17 year old black kid that no longer has the ability to defend his words or his actions because he was MURDERED by a 28 year old adult.)

       • Nola,

         If you know teenagers, then watch the 7-11 tape. Trayvon was relaxed, cordial, and going about his business.

         If Trayvon was looking for a fight, he would have been agitated, confrontational, and trying to find any reason to get pissed off.

         Since he wasn’t acting in any of those ways, that means something flipped his switch to ‘fight’ mode. That something was Zimmerman.

         What did Zimmerman do to change his demeanor? What DeeDee claims to have overheard seems to make sense… Trayvon asks: “Why are you following me”? And Zimmerman does not identify himself (he even admitted to the police that he did not identify himself), he did not even answer Trayvon’s question. Iinstead Zimmerman confronts Trayvon with a “What are you doing around here?”

       • @ Clif I have read so many put together unbelieveable scenarios on this website please forgive me if I can up with my ideal of how things could have happened that night especially since my scenario doesn’t fit in with the norm on this site. Maybe Zimmerman shouldn’t have gotten out of his truck, maybe he shouldn’t have followed him for a whole whopping 26 seconds, the fact it neither of the above is why Trayvon is dead. Trayvon ran and for someone reason he decided not to go home when he clearly had enough time to safely get there without Zimmerman even knowing which way he race. I think that the evidence as with the girlfriends statement if we are to believe anything that she has said Trayvon hid, he had a working cellphone he could have used that phone to call 911 or his dad. I believe that Trayvon left the safely of where he was hiding and went back toward the sidewalk and confronted Zimmerman and it was that decision that cost him his life. Sometimes when danger lerks, one is given a way to escape, Trayvon had his way to escape from danger while Zimmerman remained on the telephone, Whether you want to believe it or not Trayvon walked from where he was hiding and confronted Zimmerman about following him.

         • Maybe?!? An armed Zimmerman definitely shouldn’t have stalked, harassed, and preyed upon his unarmed teenage neighbor that was walking back from the convenience store with some snacks.

           As mentioned several times, I wouldn’t want my son leading a creep job back to my house if I wasn’t home. Moreover, if Trayvon did go home and then was chased back up the sidewalk path – the timing makes sense – your comment is null/void.

         • Let’s see… You’re saying that TM, turning around to confront a stalker, who was actually a “Keep the Neighborhood Safe” Neighborhood Watch Captain, should have rightfully cost him his life?

           You mean to say that by turning around and asking Zimmerman “why are you following me”, gives Zimmerman the right to shoot to kill? But it doesn’t give TM the right to an answer?

           What if you saw an undercover policeman following you. You decided to ask him why he was following you, but he refused to answer or even identify himself! He now has reason to feel so threatened that he can shoot you?
           That is not the way the law works, not even for police. It certainly doesn’t work that way for Neighborhood Watch Captains. Of course, at the station that night, the police had no way to know that Zimmerman had refused to identify himself at his first opportunity. Because Zimmerman’s story was a lie, that he had been attacked from behind, with no opportunity to do anything but defend himself. Something we now know was not the case!

           Zimmerman did not identify himself when he was questioned about his own illegal and rule breaking activities that night! Because of this failure to end the hostilities GZ was creating and persisting on maintaining, TM is laying in a grave! Because Zimmerman had, in his possession, a firearm, that he should not have been carrying while following a suspicious person!

           Had Zimmerman no fire arm on his person, they’d both be alive today! TM was no killer, TM was not even a criminal! GZ stalked and harrassed a perfectly innocent person, because GZ thought that he was stalking a criminal, even without any evidence of same. In fact GZ was the rule breaker that night, and an angry rule and law breaker he was to boot.

       • @Nola

         First off… someone who claims to be so involved with the education and counseling of teenagers should have a far better command of the English language than you have. You should look up the definition of “ideal.” The word you’re looking for is idea. I won’t bother correcting the numerous other glaring grammatical errors in your post.

         Second, how have you made the determination that Zimmerman only followed him for 26 seconds? Because he said “ok”? When he said ok, he was by his own statement more than 600 feet away from where the altercation took place. This is more than 1/10th of a mile, which would take at least 1 minute to cover this distance even at a very brisk walk. And on this topic, you of course have AGAIN ignored that the altercation took place 200 feet SOUTH of the path between where you claim he stopped following him, and his truck, which you claim he was in the process of returning to. It is physically impossible for Zimmerman to be returning to his car and no longer following Trayvon and at the same time end up at the location where the shooting took place.

         Third, calling 911 would not have saved Trayvon’s life. The police were already on the way, so if it were simply a matter of calling the police and waiting for them to arrive, then Trayvon would not be dead right now. Had Zimmerman not have called the police and Trayvon did when he went into hiding, there would still have been a minimum of five minutes that passed prior to the police arriving. Trayvon was already dead within five minutes of this time.

         Fourth, in what world could Trayvon have both stayed in hiding and made it all the way back to the house he was staying at? These two ideas are mutually exclusive, yet this is the solution that you prescribe. Beyond this, Trayvon was still about 1/4 of a mile away from the home in which he was staying. This is a 4 minute walk, a 2 minute jog, or a 1 minute sprint. Obviously sprinting or jogging directly there would be out if he’s attempting to remain in hiding, meaning he did not have the appropriate amount of time to make it home and avoid Zimmerman.

         Lastly, have you forgotten the stand your ground law? It doesn’t apply only to white/hispanic people, or just adults. Trayvon has the LEGAL RIGHT TO STAND HIS GROUND. He has no legal requirement to run, and has the legal right to defend himself. He was being followed by a man in the dark, and the man never identified himself. Under Florida law, if he felt threatened, he had no requirement to run, walk away, hide, or even call the police. He had the right under Florida law to strike with deadly force if he felt threatened by this man. Since Zimmerman was following him and therefore provoked the confrontation, Zimmerman was not, by definition, standing his ground. He was by definition encroaching on Trayvon’s ground. The author of the stand your ground law, a white Florida Republican, has made this statement multiple times on television and in print.

         • I may just copy/paste from this rebuttal the next time a similar comment appears. Ha! Very well thought out response — thank you!

         • Has anybody asked why Zimmerman got out of his truck (WITH A LOADED GUN) in the first place? If he didn’t want to play hero with a weapon, couldn’t he have just observed Trayvon from his truck by driving to – as he indicated – the back entrance?

           This still means Zimmerman would be stalking, harassing, and preying upon his unarmed neighbor but at least there wouldn’t be a chance of a physical altercation and/or gun firing.

       • @Nola

         First off… someone who claims to be so involved with the education and counseling of teenagers should have a far better command of the English language than you have. You should look up the definition of “ideal.” The word you’re looking for is idea. I won’t bother correcting the numerous other glaring grammatical errors in your post.

         Second, how have you made the determination that Zimmerman only followed him for 26 seconds? Because he said “ok”? When he said ok, he was by his own statement more than 600 feet away from where the altercation took place. This is more than 1/10th of a mile, which would take at least 1 minute to cover this distance even at a very brisk walk. And on this topic, you of course have AGAIN ignored that the altercation took place 200 feet SOUTH of the path between where you claim he stopped following him, and his truck, which you claim he was in the process of returning to. It is physically impossible for Zimmerman to be returning to his car and no longer following Trayvon and at the same time end up at the location where the shooting took place.

         Third, calling 911 would not have saved Trayvon’s life. The police were already on the way, so if it were simply a matter of calling the police and waiting for them to arrive, then Trayvon would not be dead right now. Had Zimmerman not have called the police and Trayvon did when he went into hiding, there would still have been a minimum of five minutes that passed prior to the police arriving. Trayvon was already dead within five minutes of this time.

         Fourth, in what world could Trayvon have both stayed in hiding and made it all the way back to the house he was staying at? These two ideas are mutually exclusive, yet this is the solution that you prescribe. Beyond this, Trayvon was still about 1/4 of a mile away from the home in which he was staying. This is a 4 minute walk, a 2 minute jog, or a 1 minute sprint. Obviously sprinting or jogging directly there would be out if he’s attempting to remain in hiding, meaning he did not have the appropriate amount of time to make it home and avoid Zimmerman.

         Lastly, have you forgotten the stand your ground law? It doesn’t apply only to white/hispanic people, or just adults. TRAYVON HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO STAND HIS GROUND. He has no legal requirement to run, and has the legal right to defend himself. He was being followed by a man in the dark, and the man never identified himself. Under Florida law, if he felt threatened, he had no requirement to run, walk away, hide, or even call the police. He had the right under Florida law to strike with deadly force if he felt threatened by this man. Since Zimmerman was following him and therefore provoked the confrontation, Zimmerman was not, by definition, standing his ground. He was by definition encroaching on Trayvon’s ground. The author of the stand your ground law, a white Florida Republican, has made this statement multiple times on television and in print.

     • Well your desire and ability to alter well documented history is almost amusing, it still holds no basis in reality.

       A) Zimmerman was obviously following Trayvon prior to even speaking to 911. He started the call saying he was “walking around,” and was in part suspicious because he was looking at Zimmerman, so Zimmerman had already been following this kid long enough for Trayvon to notice.

       B) Zimmerman continues talking as if he’s running for approximately 10 seconds AFTER he is told not to follow, and the wind interference continues as well.

       C) The dispatcher told Zimmerman to wait at the mailboxes and meet the police there. Zimmerman said to have the police call him and he’d tell them where he was at, indicating despite being instructed otherwise, he was planning to continue moving.

       D) Of course, the entire purpose of this entire website is the maps, which you have conveniently ignored since they do not fit the cute little story you have invented. The altercation occurred several hundred feet SOUTH of the direct path between Zimmerman’s last known location and Zimmerman’s truck. If your analysis was correct, and he was simply cooperating with the 911 operator, there would be no way he would end up in the final location where he ended up shooting Trayvon.

       E) Your primary evidence that he was compliant and simply following orders is that he said “ok.” You’re either the worst parent on earth, or don’t have children. Just because a person says, “ok” doesn’t actually mean they’re compliant and going to do what you tell them to do, especially when you can’t physically see whether or not they’re being compliant.

336. GZs injuries look as if he’s been in a cat fight with a female. Two females going at it, trying to scratch the crap out of each other.

337. Your gray shirt experiment was with a much too dark shade.

     Here’s the shirt Zimmerman was wearing.

     http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbThh5TMx98mk1uT2Fa8Yn8FUi7GLetwK_8MWHy4Gmt2wJpe08k32YtW4

     [It’s a thumbnail, but there are lots more photos showing his shirt, and this one is fairly color-balanced.]

     Also, here are downloadable searchable (ocr text) copies of the recently released court docs (recent as of this writing, May 20, 2012)

     pdf version (ocr — optical character recognition — is searchable).

     Click to access trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

     text (searchable) version.
     http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.txt

     Thanks for the work you’ve done on this.

338. Why is the FBI Manufacturing Reasons to Arrest Occupy Protesters While Ignoring White Supremacist Violence?

     http://www.alternet.org/story/155495/why_is_the_fbi_manufacturing_reasons_to_arrest_occupy_protesters_while_ignoring_white_supremacist_violence_?akid=8811.150508.IEDsPs&rd=1&t=21

     Writing in Rolling Stone this week, Rick Perlstein looks at how the FBI regularly entraps and creates “terrorists” out of anarchists and activists, while comparatively ignoring violent white supremacist groups.

     Using some recent examples, Perlstein paints a startling picture. He notes the arrest this month of a small group of self-identified anarchists, participating in Occupy Cleveland, who — strung along in an FBI sting — planned to blow up a large Ohio bridge. The target was suggested and (fake) C-4 explosives were provided by an FBI infiltrator. As Perlstein put it, the episode was one among numerous law enforcement schemes since 2001 in which “the alleged terrorist masterminds end up seeming, when the full story comes out, unable to terrorize their way out of a paper bag without law enforcement tutelage.”

     Perlstein contrasts the Ohio arrestees with another recently arrested group: The American Front, a “known terrorist group” of Florida-based white supremacists who — without FBI encouragement — “took a break from training with machine guns for a race war in order to fashion weapons out of fake ‘Occupy’ signs which they planned to use to assault May Day protesters in Melbourne, Florida.” While anarchists, animal rights activists and Muslims pass muster as federal targets, organized hate groups do not.

     READ MORE

     • Just so that — those of you who don’t happen across WS group material much — know that there is a genuine reason to suspect that there’s more going on, where GZ keeps targeting blacks.

       If I didn’t know better, this entire TM thing, could pass for an initiation ceremony of sorts. In fact, I don’t know any better. But, I do note that many have found GZ’s support group very strange! What could be motivation for being so foolish where lives are at stake?

       Are they playing to eyes they know are watching, but that we, the general public, are clueless about?

       • Lonnie Starr:

         I suspected the same thing. When I came across the records listed below for Frank “Francis” Taaffe’s son, William Christopher Taaffe, the first thing I thought was, “Is this some type of young kkk racist group?” Well, as the cliché’ goes, “Birds of a feather flock together”.

         Still trying to find information on why the confessed murderer was sent to Sanford, FL, as he stated in his high school yearbook, “I’m moving to Florida to live with my godfather who just opened a million dollar business”, and the details about the alleged assault on him while he was still living in Manassa, VA. Still haven’t been able to confirm it, but it’s rumored Wolfinger, former SAO is his godfather. Wolf is allegedly a friend of his dad, who have ties going back to the Korean War.

         Will was arrested for the same crimes as the confessed murderer. He states on his MysSpace Page he likes “committing hate crimes”, similar to disparaging comments made by the confessed murderer on his MySpace Page about Mexicans and women.

         How does a kid go from being an up and coming journalist and skater to committing hate crimes and getting a criminal rapsheet?

         Check out Frank’s daughter’s, Meredith, rant about Frank and the confessed murder. After listening to the voicemail, scroll down to read Meredith’s comments.

         http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/george-zimmerman-surfaces-in-voicemail-to-supporter.php#46838997

         Frank Taaffe’s sentiments on his son’s Legacy Page:

         “Will, My son and my life , I miss you each and every minute of each day that passes when you died , I will always love You until and can be with you again Love always your Daddy”
         Dad Taaffe (Sanford, FL)

         http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/orlandosentinel/obituary.aspx?n=william-christopher-taaffe-will&pid=117819577

         William Taaffe Mugshhots

         http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8104810/details/

         http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Florida/Marion-County-FL/William-Taaffe.8033712/details/

         William Taaffe Rap Sheet: He was arrested and charged for the same charge as the confessed murderer, physical assault against a LEO, amongst other charges.

         http://casesearch.marioncountyclerk.org/index.cfm?FuseAction=Home.CaseView&Case_id=1169152&CFID=2149002&CFTOKEN=33841557

         Type in: Taaffe Francis
         http://myclerk.myorangeclerk.com/CaseDetail.aspx?CaseID=5820295

         Will Taaffe’s MySpace Page
         http://www.myspace.com/taaffnug420

         Among Will’s “Interests” listed on his MySpace is:
         “Getting Liquored up and committing hate crimes(its a blast i swear!). “

         T.G.

     • Lonnie Starr,

       Thank you for such an insightful post. After reading it, the first thing that comes to mind is “The Liberty City Seven”. They are a group of poor, financially struggling African American men from Miami, Florida who were charged in 2007 and convicted of planning to commit acts of terrorism.

       http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-11-22/news/liberty-city-seven-trial-travesty/2/

       http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-12/justice/liberty.seven_1_terror-trial-rotschild-augustine-liberty-city?_s=PM:CRIME

       • Yes, I remember that well, these guys couldn’t figure out how to raise bus fare to downtown Miami, being held up as terrorist masterminds. I doubt if they even knew where the middle east is, no less who is involved, forget about what the issues are. The FBI waves a bundle of dollars under their noses and they do, what just about any stupid red blooded American, living in abject poverty with no hope of getting anywhere, would, take the money and run!
         Only they weren’t allowed to “run”, based on them accepting the money, they were accused of everything under the sun, because the FBI needed scapegoats to show performance stats. When I was in high school most adults were too smart to go for crap like that, back in the 60’s they’d have been laughed at and probably called into court to answer for such stupidity.

         Now that we’re into the age of jingoism, they can get away with accusing you of planning to weigh down the moon with Cherry Garcia and crash it into the Earth, needless to say they’d probably get a conviction and at a jury trial to boot!

339. One witness has recanted what he said re; the screams for help. He had previously said it was GZ.

     I cannot add the link for some reason

     • Deborah D,

       The Orlando Sentinel posted a lot of the witness statements to include both statements from witness 6. Try the link below.

       http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/

       • Wow! The white tee-shirt guy witness says the person she saw was in a white tee-shirt and she did not see fighting and police arrived 5 seconds later. She knows the guy on top had on the white tee-shirt because it was dark and she couldn’t see anything except that the guy on top’s tee-shirt because it was the only color that “popped” in the dark and there was no other color.

       • So George Zimmerman was the initiator of the NW program for the community? Interesting. That’s why maybe all over the web he’s described as the “self-appointed captain”.

     • He recanted that statement back in March, several weeks after giving his initial statement. Wonder why they are just now reporting this.

       • Tina,

         I have noticed most of the “leaks” regarding this case have been to the benefit of George Zimmerman. From what’s posted on the Orlando Sentinel’s website this is the only witness that says Trayvon was on top right before the shot went off. He thought it was GZ screaming but now can’t be sure. His statement as a whole becomes unreliable in my opinion. The MMA comment alone was suspect when you look at the minor injuries GZ suffered. I think this revelation is a bombshell. But again, only a few media outlets are even reporting that witness recanted statement because it doesn’t benefit GZ and whoever is backing him financially….

       • bunny620,

         I thought the “MMA” comment was an over exaggeration. Just like when Frank Taaffe speaks. Recanted witness statements of what happened that night is suspect. This all took place 30ft from his back door, says he was outside and was quite certain that it was GZ that was yelling for help. How can you be that close and not be able to distinguish between a grown man yelling for help and a teenager cries for help. Another thing that I’m seeing is that even on several of the written reports from officer’s and investigators, they are indicating that during the call in which the shot is heard at 7:16, you can hear GZ yelling “help”. That tells me that despite other witness saying it was the voice of a younger person, they decided to take the word of GZ and recanted witness.

         • Just like when Robert Zimmerman, George’s brother, said one more blow and my brother would be wearing diapers the rest of his life.

           Give me a break.

       • “Another thing that I’m seeing is that even on several of the written reports from officer’s and investigators, they are indicating that during the call in which the shot is heard at 7:16, you can hear GZ yelling “help”. That tells me that despite other witness saying it was the voice of a younger person, they decided to take the word of GZ and recanted witness.”

         Yes, that is a bit disturbing to me, too. It also explains why so many witnesses ended up either getting their own attorneys or contacting the media to get their witness statements out there.

340. No Longer Mass Emailing:

     This appears to be his initial statement to police, according to Detective Chris Serino when he admits he confronted Trayvon. Since that time we’ve heard about at least 4 different versions.

     I HERALD MEDIA DUMP 183 PAGES (page 2 of 2, page 138 of 183)

     Click to access aOYtz.So.56.pdf

     T.G.

     • Just wondering if anyone viewed witness statement (pg 49 of 183; pg 2 of 7)…this witness is stating that she could see Trayvon on the ground and moaning for help prior to hearing gunshot. States that when she first looked out she sees her neighbor and another person talking, then hears neighbor say ‘Ok, I’m going to call 911’. She then decides not to let her dog out, locks door, sets alarm, then heads upstairs to bathroom to look out window for better view. At the time she opens window is when she hears ‘pop’ sound. She does point out that there was no indication of a fight/scuffle

       • Interesting, because this neighbor must be “John” who said “stop” and went in to call 911. Talk about a perfect storm of witnesses not observing the entire event, they all seem to see it, then decide to “go upstairs” or take their eyes off the action. If she is suggesting that TM was down on the ground alone, this would be similar to what the 14 year old kid reported. I’m just not sure what could have occurred separating them like that.

     • I think I missed the admission when I reviewed the evidence dump last night. I was on a mobile device and that’s never easy.

       I did see the word confront but wasn’t sure if that specific term came from Zimmerman.

       • NLME, I’ve been thinking and thinking and thinking about it. It looks like you could have been right when you said TM was shot while he was down on the ground. But, in that position, what would be pulling Trayvon’s hoodie and tee shirt down? I’m pretty sure that if GZ was bending over and pulling the tee and sweat down, the shot would have been angled upwards, towards TM’s head, instead of straight on.

         People are saying that the holes in the clothes align higher than the wound in the body. I haven’t seen that part of the report yet, I’m reading in fits and starts between other tasks. Most blogs are loaded with links going all over the place. No one is yet pulling things together in any coherent way.

         During the OJ trial we had Jack Walraven and crew working up in Canada, pulling the transcripts together, he did a remarkable job. So far I’ve not seen any efforts like that again. I guess fewer people with the skills have the time, and fewer people with the time have the skills. Oy VEY!

     • It does indeed say the resident/Neighborhood Watch shooter “confronted the male and the two began to physically fight”. Wow! I see why you’re named the “Sleuth”. It fits!

       So when Gilbrath mentioned that the charging doc was accurate about the evidence of confrontation, he wasn’t just being a State’s advocate, he was being accurate.

       • Agreed – Sleuth is nailing it!

       • TO: CommonSenseForChange and NLME,

         Thank you. Actually, I think 99.9% of the commentors on this blog (including you 2) have got it right, and make some very valid and excellent points.

         NLME, however, I slightly disagree with you about “there’s 100% chance” the State WILL NOT be able to prove whether or not the injuries were caused by kickback, deliberate, accidental or self inflicted actions.

         I’m thinking, anyone who has handle homocides as long as these guys have, they have probably seen it all. Medical doctors are even familiar with injuries caused by “Kickback” and “Self inflicted”.

         Former SPD Chief Bill Lee and Former New Jersey Police Commander, Walt Zalisko found the confessed murder’s story implausible. Detective Chris Serino didn’t believe him either. Now, State investigators are saying the confessed murderer’s account of how his injuries were sustained are inconsistent with the evidence they have. Surely they must have an idea, if not proof of how they occurred.

         http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Florida+Stand+Your+Ground+complicates+Trayvon+Martin+shooting/6332321/story.html?id=6332321

         http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/v-print/2706876/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html

         The confessed murderer’s stated symptoms, i.e. dizziness, nausea, back pain, nose bleed, broken nose, etc. are very similar to those of kickback. And nothing from the photos, EMS and doctor’s report indicate anything that amounts to “The Shaken Baby Syndrome”, that his family claims, stating one more blow on the concrete would have left him in diapers and being spoon fed.

         Afterall, the confessed murderer was well enough to meet with investigators the next day at the gated community to go over his statements and re-enactments of the incident.

         QUESTION:

         Did the confessed murderer tell his private doctor he was involved in a scuffle with an unarmed teenager that he murdered the night before?

         • I think so. As I recall, the family doctor said Zimmerman was visibly upset (of course) and they recommended that he see his psychologist regarding the fight/shooting.

           As for a gun’s kickback being proven as the cause of Zimmerman’s injury: I hope you’re right. I see some scratches/puffy nose and those could be the result of anything.

           If some part of the gun was (jokingly) stamped on his face, the kickback theory is probably easier to prove.

       • NLME,

         Kickback is just a theory of mine, Deborah D. had the same theory. I’ve seen it happen to a few people. It’s quite common.

         Just go visit your nearest outdoor/indoor gun/shooting range. You’ll definitely find several LE’s there. Ask them about kickback happening, even at the ranges.

         You’re absolutely right though, “the scratches/puffy nose” you see could be from anything. Maybe he got them crawling through some hedges or bushes? Maybe he slipped and fell?

         It’s nothing foreign to an observant doctor who knows how to ask the right questions, such as those in the ER. And I strongly believe that’s why he avoided going to the ER under police escort.

         I guess there could be a story out there somewhere on the internet that state he was “visibly upset” while visiting his private doctor, however, I’m not aware of any that mentions he told the doctor he murderered an unarmed teeneager the night before.

         I’m thinking O’Mara would certainly be trying to prevent such statements from being released any sooner than required by law. Frankly speaking, I believe journalist use a lot of conjecture in their stories as attention getters.

         However, I do recall reading a story where his doctor tells him to follow up with an ear, nose and throat doctor which he declined. One of his ears does appear to be peeling or have a rash on it. What’s up with that? The doctor also told him it was “imperative” that he follow up with a psychologist.

         It made no mention of following up with a psychologist for the purposes of being “visibly upset due to a fight/shooting”, although that would be the proper advice a doctor would give someone whom they felt was in need of some sort of counseling.

         I still don’t understand why his doctor didn’t refer him to a psychiatrist considering he had been taking psychtropic medications. Maybe the doctor he saw wrote the presciptions for the psychotropic drugs he was taking.

         What this part of the evidence just released tells me, is the confessed murderer was seeing a psychiatrist/psychologist. Perhaps this is why, during the bond hearing, the DA, Bernie de la Rionda, asked his father if he had ever been treated for psychiatric problems. Maybe the DA had already done his homework in that regard.

         It mentions he was on Adderall and Temazepam. In the State of Florida, only psychiatrists, medical doctors, and some physician assistants are allowed to prescribed medications. Psychologists can’t.

         You joked: “If some part of the gun was (jokingly) stamped on his face, the kickback theory is probably easier to prove.”

         Well it was, and it’s plain as the nose on his face and the pinhole cuts on the back of his head.

         I admit though, it sure would be laughable, and serve as a small sense of poetic justice to find out that he whupped his own butt by busting himself in the face and head. (smiling right about now just at the very thought of it).

         I’m just one of those who believes answers are sometimes hiding in plain sight.

         At your earliest convenience, go back and listen to the 911 call. You can clearly hear the confessed murderer sliding a clip into the chamber while he’s still on the line with the dispatcher.

         T. G.

341. Just an FYI for those still thinking Trayvon was a big guy–the coroner’s report said he was 5′ 11″ and 158 lbs. Zimmerman is 5’8 ” (only 3″ shorter than Trayvon) and at the time weighed 245 lbs.

     • George Zimmerman is 5’8″ And weighs about 170 lbs. The numbers you used are about 7 years old.

342. I think he was a little over 6 feet but not much heavier than 160. Definitely not an imposing figure other than his height. BTW, kids of that age although physically may appear to be larger, but theyre body mass and muscle development is not the same as a grown man. TM had a frame that would have eventually grown into a pretty big strong guy but it was more of a frame than fully developed. Keep in mind, he had only recently turned 17.

     • Thank you, Ace. The coroner’s report specifically says 5’11” and 158 lbs. for TM. Your point about teenage body mass and muscle development for teenagers (remembering that TM was only two weeks past his 17th b’day) is an excellent one.

343. Zimmerman’s car is placed in a wrong position in your maps. That explains your flawed analysis. Based on the evidence Zimmerman is telling the truth.

     • Source?

     • Actually nobody knows with certainty where the car was. The police did not record it, apparently thinking GZ to be on foot. It was later moved by Mrs Z.

       It may or may not have been the white Ford shown in the background in a few early TV shots of the crime scene. IT is hard to tell from those exactly what that position was.

       Can anyone find a way to check vehicle registrations to confirm what GZ’s vehicle actually was?? is there some website that gives this information?

       • Along with the 911 call’s timing matching up, Taaffe points out Zimmerman’s vehicle location on 5/10:

         What a horrible, horrible interview for team Zimmerman. It almost couldn’t have gone worse.

       • A Honda key was found on the ground with the small silver flashlight on the keyring (marker #1)… so guessing it’s probably not the White Ford.

         • I noticed that too. Is it confirmed that the flashlight and Honda key belonged to Zimmerman?

344. I have a question. On the discovery list which the state has provided with discovery, witness 15 just says 911. No written statement. No officer interview. No state interview. Every other 911 call or caller has a written statement or and a follow up with police or state investigators. Discovery page seven reads 911 calls (seven). I count 9. Any thoughts ?

     • Pretty sure that’s Austin’s sister who placed the 911 call, but saw nothing herself. There are more witnesses with 911 calls listed as identifiers than there were 911 calls made, so there’s some doubling up.

345. Autospy for Trayvon 71″ = 5’9″ 158 pounds
     On the Sheriff form it states he was 5’8″ 185 pounds.

346. 71″ is 5’11”
     does measuring someone lying down give the same as doing it standing up?
     Anyway he was “around 6ft” not 6’4″‘ and certainly not huge/heavy. I’d take the autopsy weight a correct, the sheriff’s as a typing error.

     GZ seems to have lost weight while in hiding, but I don’t believe he was 280 either. A lot of the early weights were based on guesses, based on photos years out of date for both of them. Twisted, as most things in this sorry saga, to match the prejudices of the teller. GZ in the police station photos seems to have a bit of padding on him, but not enough to cause difficulties running, certainly not obese.

     It is becoming apparent that they were actually fairly closely matched in size and weight. Not that it matters a lot, when it is also becoming apparent there was not much of a fight.

347. Flashlight Man? GZ himself?

     http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/05/17/21/26/aOYtz.So.56.pdf (p 2/7 p 80/183)

     statement of officer Serino about evidence found at the scene
     “there were a set of keys containing a small flash light THAT WAS ON..” (my capitals).

     The evidence lists only one set of keys with a flashlight, and that is a Honda one.

     So, if GZ truck a Honda or not? if he has a large flashlight, why use the small one? why risk dropping/losing his car keys?

     If his truck is not a Honda…. whose keys and flashlight were these? The big flashlight was tested for blood. The key-chain one was not tested for anything.

     We are assuming it was GZ’s. But for all we know he had other keys on him. He had to change his clothes (his wife brought him some) and the clothes worn at the incident were taken for evidence. There is nothing said about the contents of his pockets. They are not in evidence, so obviously he was allowed to keep them. They MAY have included keys.

     Why would someone else’s car keys be at the scene? because they were not there as car keys but as a flashlight, easy to grab off a table etc in a hurry.

     On the other hand, it might be GZ’s. It might be what he was looking for, when he seemed to be looking for something, in that brief half minute while he may have considered running away. No need to be looking for his cell phone, the neighbours were already calling the cops. And someone lent him one to use soon enough (cf phone pic of back of head).

     • Interesting. I hadn’t heard GZ seemed to be looking for something right after the shooting. But your observation is interesting if true. If I had just shot someone I don’t think I’d even be aware I had dropped some keys, unless I had been using them to create injuries to myself and dropped them while doing so.

       • I didn’t think of that! one witness (the 2 roommates?) said he was pacing up and down with hands to his head, that seems to be looking for something. NLME thought maybe for his phone.

         If it’s his it may have been the “flashlight between them” the wtiness saw betwen the 2 running shadows, although she now says she thinks it was ONE person running.

         But it could be someone else’s key, brought out to be the flashlight a wirness saw just before the police got there.

348. Hey Guys there is NOT sudden silence after the gunshot

     http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=676362&songID=11548279&showPlayer=true

     this has been slowed down and a bit of noise cleaned up.

     There’s the bang, silence, the woman says “there’s a gunshot” and there is one very short very high pitched “yelp” before the silence, a scream cut in half.

     Just before the shot there’s a male voice, low, in the foreground, with the woman. Was he ever interviewed? Sounds like when the dispatcher asks “is he injured” it’s the man answering the question to the woman.

349. Witness 12,” said, who was initially interviewed on March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting, but was not sure who was on top. But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top. “I know after seeing the TV of what’s happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size.

     Well this is what you get when the media shows pictures of a12 year Martin and a 28 year old Zimmerman.

     • Do you think Trayvon doesn’t look like a young/wiry kid in the 7/11 video that was just released?

       • It looks like TM is wearing a tent! You can see that his clothes are full of nothing but air.

       • She didn’t make her decision based on the 7-11 video, she changed her statement 6 days later, after watching the media baited youth pictures.

         • Yup. But, after seeing the 7/11 video, do you think the witness needed to see pictures of a slightly younger Trayvon in the media to form an opinion that he was a kid? Nope, she just had to remember the happenings of that night.

       • I don’t think she made her decision based on seeing the 7-11video. She changed her statement on March 26, I don’t think she had seen the 7-11 video, according to her, she changed her statement based on what she was seeing on TV. I think that the jurors will see these witnesses as unreliable or right out lying about what they saw. This one will be seen as one who allowed the media and others to shade what she saw. I watch wrestling a lot, when two people are rolling around on the ground, one may be on top this second, and the other one may be on top the next second. No matter who was seen on top the fact is no one saw who threw the first punch, and I am inclined to believe that since Zimmerman had already call for an officer and he knew that the officer should have been arriving shortly, there really was no reason for Zimmerman to provoke a fight with Trayvon. You can beat your pension if the Sanford Police Department had came around the corner of that townhouse and saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman banging his head into the concrete, and Zimmerman yelling for help they would have shot Trayvon and asked questions later because they would have viewed Trayvon as the aggressor,

         • I don’t think the witness made her decision based on the 7/11 video either. My point was – as seen during the 7/11 video – Trayvon was a wiry young teenager. So, the witness made her decision based on the happenings of that night and not necessarily some pictures of him from a few years earlier.

350. When pressed for clarity, witness 12 says the person on top had a more full figure (similar build to Zimmerman). I would say that even in the dark, a person could easily distinguish the bodies of TM vs. Zimmerman. Also, if you listen to her statement, she sort of “concludes” that the person on top must have been Zimmerman because he just got up and the boy was still down. This can be interpreted as a logical point that if the person she had seen had emerged from the bottom of the heap, she would have observed some sort of collapse or flip over of the body on top. Compare this with zimmerman’s statement that after shooting TM, he fell back (and apparently did a 360 degree twirl before collapsing.)

     • So while they were wrestling Zimmerman got the upper hand by being on top and it was then he was in a better position to fire point blank into Martin’s chest with his already unholstered gun. This was why Trayvon was screaming for help because he was trying to prevent the gun from being aimed at him. After the deadly shot Zimmerman then got up and then Martin either turned over by himself or Zimmerman flipped him over and then straddled him.

351. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57440283-504083/trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman-called-police-lazy-and-disgusting-tape-reveals/

     Makes one wonder MORESO if Zimmerman was determined to take the law into his own hands. If the “lazy” police didn’t get there in time then he needed to apprehend the potential lawbreaker. Maybe Z was intent on following through as it would look good on his resume as he tried to get into a career, policeman, lawyer, judge….. it has been reported he wanted a career there in many articles.

     • Deborah D,

       You are spot on with your comment. No doubt that George thought he’d be scoring brownie points with SPD for catching this ‘suspicious’ guy, who looks like he’s on drugs, and up to no good. He was bound and determined to not let another one of the a_holes get away, not on his ‘watch’! Instead of waiting for the cops to arrive and do the job they’re paid to do, he decides to intervene in a situation that he created, and existed only in his mind.

       Sorry George, no glaring media headlines lauding you as a ‘Hero’, instead, they read just the opposite!

352. Ain’t tea, that’s watermelon drank, baby. {in Dave Chapelle’s voice}
     and skittles = Lean Drink

     • Interestingly, if the can and skittles were still in his pocket, he hadn’t mixed them yet and hence still not relevant… But on another note, the people I know who are on anxiety drugs, much like zimmerman, have had issues with whole personality flips. Seriously!!! These drugs are far more relevant to his state of mind that if he, Zimmerman, had smoked marijuana in stead. Of course we will never know because of sloppy police work and hence we will have people like you focused on the victim only instead of the balance. If you are going to consider drugs, you have to consider the effect of all drugs and all people involved. What are you a relative of Zimmerman? No, probably not, I think that his relatives are scared of him…

       • Could have returned to the store for more. Trayvon was definitely into the purple drink and weed.

         • Yes, all – it’s going to be tough not responding to this. Keep in mind – your incensed response is what Nola is seeking.

       • Nola,

         you know so much, have you made your statement to the investigators yet?

         No?

         You do realise they know who you are, right? and have read some of the crazy stuff you’ve been writing on other blogs? at least one of which the FBI is already interested in?

         Really makes me wonder what YOU are on, but I don’t go around telling people that I know for sure.

         Come back when you have something to say that’s backed up by the evidence dump. I don’t expect to be seeing you again.

       • I agree with you San San B. In addition, Zimmerman admitted his drugs per the evidence, so there’s no question he was on them.. Or is there? He has lied about so much. He studied law. I wouldn’t mind seeing PROOF that he was on anything. He could be simply trying to cop a “the meds made me do it” defense.

       • Could have been on his way back to the store to purchase the bread for sandwiches or the nachos. Is going back to the store an illegal activity?

353. @nola

     What?

354. @nola

355. @ SanSan
     Thank you! I said the same thing on the other blog!

356. Nah, guys. She’s not a troll.

     The pitiful creature actually believes all that garbage. Except the other place she posts it on all agree with her, too.

     A lot of what I’ve seen around this case has really made me feel sorry for America and good Americans.

     • I agree Aussie. I am sorry about what it means about compassion and the value of life here. I have read the most awful stuff about this kid who really is VERY normal. I have never heard of someone following another with a gun unless they are unhinged. Imagine the kind of precedent that would be set if he walks away… The same sort of shenanigans can be used to threaten and scare kids with no consequences. Really it is hard to remain civil. I hurt for this family who had to work so hard to bring attention to this and the fact that the police had done such a sorry job.

       • I’m in full agreement with that, San San B.

357. Nola what is that about the purple drink? I’m an interested RN. But really stop the cryptic talk and contribute in a more intelligent manner.

     As for Trayvon, I don’t care if he ever acted peculiar or if he was on drugs of ANY kind. The fact is , he was walking home in the rain, not harming anyone, talking to a friend on the phone. Zimmerman had no right to stop him nor accost him as he was not in law enforcement. He should have stayed in his car and Trayvon would still be alive. That 18 seconds of recorded yelling for help, is someone who was desperate…… no one who heard those screams intervened, and now we have a dead 17 year old.

     Nola so far people on this site have been contributing their reflections , insight and information in a mature manner, maybe you should consider another site closer to your intellectual capacity? Or perhaps take the time to think before you throw things out there.

     I’m open to hear things in favour of Zimmerman but not at the expense of trashing or demeaning Trayvon.

     • There is one part of this story that cannot be denied by anyone anymore and that is absolutely central to the question of the guilty-ness of GZ. And that is that GZ shot only AFTER taking a prolonged and life-threatening beat down. He knew that he was armed, so taking a beating was the result of choices he made to not shoot first. This is a huge, indestructible fact that even Crump et al must acknowledge. There is no way to get to 2nd degree murder from here. There can be nothing in the evidence files that can change this.

       • Having only a likely broken nose and needing soapy water for abrasions (that didn’t even require bandaids) obviously doesn’t indicate there was a prolonged life-threatening beat down.

         Regardless, you can’t stalk, harass, and prey upon a neighbor and expect Stand Your Ground or self defense to bail you out.

         • Unfortunately for your understanding of these events, we cannot simply assume that GZ took a beating. But, even if we did, we have no evidence that it was at TM’s hands. There simply has to be evidence of that beating, as described, on TM’s hands, for it to have even happened by him. So, we have to look elsewhere for the source of GZ’s injuries!

           TM can’t tell his side of the story, so GZ gets to say that TM assaulted him! But, the evidence doesn’t bear that out. With no trace or injuries to TM’s hand, we can’t even speculate that TM ever touched GZ!

           Not to mention that TM was a very respectful child, one who never had a violent encounter before, whose personality is mild mannered and polite.
           The only infractions we can find against him are passive ones. So, it’s doubtful that TM even knew how to fight beyond kids play. His size alone
           would keep bullies at bay, we know they look for smaller and weaker.

           People who knew him say he was mild mannered and jovial, a cheerful child.
           Which bespeaks a child who would never throw a punch at someone older and heavier than himself. He’d be too afraid to try it, since he’d have to explain the altercation to his parents who would not condone it.

           Why use GZ’s psychological made up, to portray him as the protective neighborhood watchman, yet, try to imbue TM with the psychological make up needed to attack and pummel a big, heavy adult, which takes a whole lot of skills and a psychology TM clearly doesn’t have? Then ignore the evidence that TM’s hands never picked up the evidence they should have if such an attack was true?

       • Ummm… what makes you qualified to judge this as life-threatening?

         I’ll give you actual evidence instead of just making opinions and claiming that they are indisputable facts:
         A) Police are required to give medical attention to suspects if they are seriously injured.
         B) “Life-threatening” injuries are indisputably serious.
         C) The police called off the second ambulance and took him to the police station for the night.

         Based on this, the first half of your statement is 100% incorrect. Clearly you got your medical degree the same place as your law degree, but I’ll dissect the second half of your statement anyways. In part because this is an insanely stupid statement that only someone with absolutely no knowledge of law or history could have made:

         “There is no way to get to 2nd degree murder from here.”

         This statement is 100% incorrect even if the first half of your statement was correct (which of course I already showed it was not).

         http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19931007&slug=1724891
         http://voices.washingtonpost.com/crime-scene/ruben-castaneda/md-man-convicted-of-bar-fight.html
         http://www.wgmorris.com/Articles/Its-the-Law-Homicide-101.shtml

         There are three links that took me 3 minutes to find. The first two are news stories where men were convicted of 2nd degree murder after a bar fight where the incurred injuries, and where they eventually shot the other person(s) involved in the fight.

         The third link is a Florida criminal lawyer. He gives the definition of second degree murder and manslaughter. He gives as a specific example of second degree murder as a bar fight. As anyone knows, fights often result in injuries, but just because one party is injured during the fight does not give them the right to kill during said fight.
         He also gives examples of manslaughter, such as two friends at a party playing with a gun they believe to be empty, pulling the trigger, and one accidentally killing the other. Another example is when someone’s mental state is disturbed, such as catching your wife/husband cheating, and killing your spouse and the lover.

         Even if the first half of your theory were true, it would still be very close to the two news stories and the example of second degree murder provided by the lawyer, and there would be zero comparison with the two examples of manslaughter. Unless of course Trayvon was banging Zimmerman’s wife on the sidewalk, but I don’t recall that being filed into evidence.

         • O’mara has to be absolutely pissed Zimmerman’s family doctor cleared him of a concussion the next day. That’s the only possible defense for Zimmerman that I could have imagined.

           Though, as you mentioned, if Zimmerman had something as “small” as a concussion, he definitely would have been taken directly to the ER after killing Trayvon.

       • GZs wounds weren’t bad. Superficial really. No way was GZs head being beat into the concrete, He would have at least had a concussion. TMs wounds were fatal. TM didn’t stalk GZ, GZ stalked TM. TM was heading towards the back entrance because his townhouse was back that way. GZ assumed TM was trying to make it to the back exit. TM was running because the creepy guy was still watching him. GZ assumed TM was running to escape. TM didn’t call GZ an a##hole, GZ called TM one. Seems to me GZ had some sort of chip on his shoulder concerning this black guy in a hoodie walking in GZs “domain” at night. GZ was incorrect about TMs intentions. GZs actions caused the death of TM. You really think GZ is just going to walk Nola?

     • I am truly sorry if you feel that since I don’t agree with you and the other posters on this site that my posts are immature. You wrote;

       “That 18 seconds of recorded yelling for help, is someone who was desperate…… no one who heard those screams intervened, and now we have a dead 17 year old”, and I believe that those 18 seconds of yelling for help were screams for George Zimmerman. After listening to witness #6’s interview I am even more convinced that the screams are from Zimmerman.

       Witness #6 stated that as he stood at his patio door and told the fighters to stop that he was going to call 911, he stated that he could see Zimmerman’s face but the guy on top never looked his way, he never saw Trayvon’s face. Someone desperate for help and who was fighting for his or her life would have turned to that person standing at that doorway made eye and pleaded to that person for help, but witness #6 never saw Trayvon look his way.

       Witness #6 stated in his interview that he felt that the screams for help was coming from the person on the bottom for two reasons; the person on top appeared to be in control of the fight (at all times) and secondly Zimmerman face was toward him and Trayvon’s face was facing away from him and the screams were projected toward him and not away from him if the screams had been from Trayvon.

       Witness #6 also stated that the person on the bottom was trying to push the person on top off of him and the person on the top continued to hold the person on the bottom down, and this is why he concluded that the person on top was in control ( witness # 6 said more than once that person on the bottom kept pushing up to the point that his back was raised from the ground) and the screams for help was coming from the one on the bottom cause it appeared that the person on the bottom was trying to get away from the one person on top.

       The fact that Zimmerman had a loaded gun yet he took a brutal beating, after repeatedly trying to push Trayvon off of him, screaming and yelling for help with no one coming; then and only then did he pull the trigger to end the assault on his life.

       • Again, there is nothing brutal about a likely broken nose and some abrasions that didn’t need bandaids and were remedied by soapy water.

         And, those screams are unequivocally not Zimmerman per two experts…

         http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

       • Nice of you to pick out one witness and disregard all others that contradict the story of that witness.

         That’s exactly how the legal system is supposed to work, right? Take interviews and pose questions to as many people as possible, stitch together the ones that would lead to the conclusion you want, and pretend all other interviews never actually took place.

         Sound legal practice.

       • Maybe Trayvon didn’t look up, and was trying to hold Zimmerman down, because he didn’t want Zimmerman to get to his gun, and he was in a wrestling match for his life (which he soon lost)?

         Zimmerman shot Trayvon straight through the heart and lungs. He didn’t try to make Trayvon wait for police while holding him in his guns sights, he didn’t shoot a warning shot, didn’t shoot Trayvon in the leg/arm to slow him down, and didn’t shoot him at an angle like someone who is battling for a gun might end up having to take. Zimmerman knew the police would be there shortly since he had called earlier, and now the neighbor said he was going to call. Yet, he shot to kill.

         Zimmerman had no concussion – making his head against the sidewalk story seem to be one more lie among many. He’s had to come up with many lies to try to get away with a claim of self-defense when he point-blank murdered a kid walking home from the store. It’s too bad you believe them.

       • The two voice experts were hired by the Orlando Sentinel, and the two experts used their own software; however on May 17, 2012 it was reported in the newspapers, on TV and over the Internet that the FBI audio specialists couldn’t identify who was screaming in the background of one 911 call because of the quality of the audio. Furthermore I would see no reason to argue with Tracy Martin who listened to the call at least twice and both times said that it was not his son’s voice on the tape.

         Witness 6 who saw the fight; during his second interview even after being hounded by an investigator is still saying that it was the person on the bottom who was screaming for help. Witness 6 even stated that Zimmerman was trying to push Trayvon off of him as if he was trying to get away from Trayvon.

         Based on witness 6’s statement, I think that Zimmerman did everything he could to get Trayvon off of him, he was calling for help and no one came, and he was not required to let Trayvon continue to bang his head into the concrete while praying that Trayvon be gentle and hoping that someone came to help him. Zimmerman had called for an officer to be dispatched, he knew that someone was on the way, he was standing face to face with the person that he had earlier described as being suspicious; therefore there was absolutely no reason for him to provoke a fight with Trayvon under these circumstances.

         @ Clif, as far as picking out one witness, frankly witness 6 appears to be the only witness that actually saw anything, everyone else heard. To be an eyewitness to something one actually have to see something, The witness that saw two people running now is saying that he saw only one person running. She could have seen Trayvon running toward the back entrance when Zimmemran reported to the dispatcher that he was running, it could have been Austin chasing his dog, than again she didn’t have her eyeglasses own. On a dark raining night and that sidewalk is a good distance from those townhouses, I would suspect that if she wasn’t hanging out of her window she probably didn’t see anything.

         Then there is the woman who said that Trayvon was on top and then changed and said that it was Zimmemran on top after she watched TV and saw the difference in their sizes, Trayvon 12 years old and Zimmerman what 25 years old? Now it is definitely the bigger person on top.

         If witness # 6 had a hard time seeing Trayvon and Zimmerman and they were right in his grass, the ones whp were farther away didn’t see half of what they are claiming they saw. A good defense attorney will go back to the crime scene on a night same darkest, when it’s raining, place each witness in his or hers respective location and determine what could have been seen and couldn’t have been seen.

         Frankly as the witnesses change their stories. they all become a little unreliable, and that fact along will create doubt in the jurors’ minds about what these witnesses actually saw and heard.

         • Oops! You’re leaving out the important part of what the FBI said…

           “An FBI expert found crucial evidence in the Trayvon Martin case was inconclusive, saying it was impossible to tell if the voice screaming for help belonged to the black Florida teenager or his shooter George Zimmerman just before the neighborhood watch captain pulled the trigger.”

           So, with the technology the FBI has currently utilized, they can’t tell who was screaming for help.

           But, the experts – and I presume the FBI – can unequivocally confirm it was NOT Zimmerman crying for help.

       • If you lean on witness #6 too much, you will also have to accept the fact that he pretty much eliminates the possibility of GZ being beat against the concrete. The investigator specifically questions about this. If the hits were “life threatening” apparently sounds would have been heard. The other problem is John didn’t actually see the shooting. He left. The witnesses that actually see this part say that Zimmerman was on top. I suspect that once John said that he was calling the cops, Trayvon backed down giving GZ the opportunity to pull out his gun and shoot. This information that it would take two hands or arms extended to get a steady shot, just supports this. The other info from John was that the fight is longer and doesn’t start where it ends. Why would GZ hide this? Murder 2 suggests that he aggravated this confrontation to occur and then used a back up way out when he was loosing. The prosecution can get everything they need from witness #6, it just depends on how comprehensive you look at it.

       • @Nola

         You talk about all of this like you know what’s going on, but then say Trayvon was 12 and Zimmerman was 25.
         Are you freaking kidding me?
         You clearly have no clue what is going on and are most definitely cherry picking information, because you get even the simplest facts of the case wrong.
         Trayvon was 17 and Zimmerman is 28. Everything you say is completely unreliable because you twist the facts, take partial stories, and just blabber about pointless things that have no basis in objective reality.

         @San San B

         As many people have pointed out now, it would not have taken two hands to fire this weapon. You pull the trigger and it fires. Done. Youtube videos have even been linked showing this action.
         There would have been a nasty recoil using only one hand, especially if the shooter was not on their feet and was in too close proximity to fully extend their arm and therefore brace for the recoil, but recoil occurs AFTER shooting. This wouldn’t affect his ability to accurately hit Trayvon from less than a foot away, whether he was on top of Trayvon or Trayvon was on top of him. It at most would have resulted in the butt of the gun striking against him after he shot and causing some sort of bruising.

         But all of that is out of left field, as is any discussion over whether or not Zimmerman was a racist. None of that matters at all.

         THE DAMNING FACTS:
         A) Zimmerman claims he was attacked from behind on the way back to his car, but the point of contact was about 200 feet south of the path which he would have taken to return to his car.
         So if he was merely returning to his car, why was he in this location in the first place?
         B) Trayvon has absolutely no violent history. Despite countless hours of investigation, and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent tarnishing his name, not one violent incident in his past was ever discovered. So why on earth would he have chosen this moment to become violent?
         C) Zimmerman has a long history of violence. He is an admitted wannabe cop that couldn’t make the force, had been fired from a security job for being violent and overzealous, had a restraining order due to a domestic violence incident, and had been arrest for assaulting a police officer. Basically, he has a long history of starting fights.
         D) Zimmerman’s wounds were not life threatening, and he lied about the extent of said injuries. He claimed he required stitches, yet photos from less than half an hour after the shooting show that the minor scrapes on his head were already healing on their own and had ceased bleeding. If this was a cut and dry case of self-defense, why does he feel the need to lie so often?
         E) While on neighborhood watch, Zimmerman was breaking the rules by carrying a gun, and had no authorization to confront or follow anyone. Neighborhood watch is supposed to observe and report. Not only was there nothing to actually observe or report, but even if there had been, Zimmerman had already called the police anyways, so he had already exhausted his legal abilities as neighborhood watch.
         F) The very term “stand your ground” means that if challenged, you are not required to back down. You can stay exactly where you’re at. But the problem here is that Zimmerman by definition wasn’t standing his ground. He was most definitely encroaching on Trayvon’s ground, so the only person that could make a real legal claim to explain their actions is Trayvon. “Stand your ground” does not give any person the right to stalk or harass another person. It gives the person being stalked or harassed the right to defend himself/herself with lethal force if he/she have a reasonable fear for his/her life.

         That’s where the real argument and the real case resides. All the other crap is a sideshow being used to distract from the real issue and make everything murky. Don’t go down that path.

         Even if one were to accept that Trayvon was mercilessly bashing Zimmerman’s head into the pavement (which is clearly shown to not be the case by the evidence), it still would not give Zimmerman the right to shoot Trayvon if Zimmerman started the altercation. Trayvon had every right to be where he was and was violating no laws. Zimmerman had no legal authority to confront Trayvon at all. Once confronted, if Trayvon feared for his life, he had the right to use lethal force to defend himself. Zimmerman would not gain the right to use lethal force simply because he was losing the fight that he himself had started.

       • @Clif: I wasn’t saying that it was required to shoot per se, but it explains why the weapon was fired once TM backed down. Likely, he felt more in control of his weapon, unfortunately he wasn’t in control of his temper. If GZ had gown on a practice firing, he wouldn’t want to fire that thing when they are locked together.

358. This bit of zimmerman claiming his head was bashed into the sidewalk is baloney. No concussion, and even the scrapes on the back of his head are not consistent with “slamming” but more or an incidental bump and scrape during a struggle. Also, would someone explain this…

     How was TM gripping his head (which was essentially bald), in order to slam his head into the concrete, while holding his mouth, while punching him all at the same time? Are people suggesting that TM’s hands are like Shakille O’Neal and he was gripping zimmerman’s head in one hand and slamming it into the ground? This just doesn’t add up.
     If you carefully listen to John’s account, he basically states that most of the scuffle is sort of a wrestling struggle as opposed to a one-sided beating. BTW, zimmerman’s gun required two hands to cock prior to firing… how was he able to get two hands on his gun while supposedly being pummeled?

     • See? This is where gun expertise comes into play! I did not know that it took two hands to fire the weapon. I never saw that fact posted before, so I can assume that no one else factored that into the matter either.

       I’m sure that the SP and FBI have known that. It means that somewhere in GZ’s story, we have to find a respite, long enough for GZ to get two hands free, and be oriented so that he can take a quick shot, that goes straight into TM.

       In my estimation, the only time this opportunity would occur, where all three factors are available, 1. time to cock the gun with two hands, 2. without sufficient threat of interference or need of the hands for further self defense immediately, and 3. the orientation for a straight on shot. Only occurs when GZ is standing and TM is laying on the ground. Anything else results in a wound path that is other than straight.
       So that’s my guess.

       • Does Zimmerman’s gun, for sure, take two hands to fire? I’m not a gun guy either but just looking for confirmation.

         • As far as I knew it had a 4 or 5 pound pull trigger. Hopefully the gun guys will tell us more.

         • Hey guys if you want to do a little listening experiment about the gun, here it goes… At the point when the operator asks him about his information start listening carefully from this point forward. Operator:What’s your name? George and George what’s your last name: Listen Here: your clearly hear the gun being chambered before he says his last name Zimmerman. He did not chamber the gun in the car I believe that was his sealtbelt. He was outside his car when he started answering his personal information therefore it couldn’t of been his sealtbelt. After he says zimmerman you also hear him say shit gun under his breath while the operator is talking. Then the tapping, from what I am told that particular gun is a cheap model so you have to tap the end to make sure the magazine is in. hence the tapping. Any recorded 911 call from zimmerman will do for this experiment in listening. I have found others and friends who have heard exactly what I am writing. Just wanted to bring in my opinion as to when the gun was actually chambered. I believe he was going to use it no matter what.
           Thanks

           • Excellent observation and thanks for the comment. As you mentioned, I’d love to know what was said under Zimmerman’s breath at the 2:45ish mark here…

             • at that 2:45 mark is when he says shit gun. listen to whole thing in context from the point of Operator: whats your name? George whats your last name (clickclick gun being chambered) zimmerman. at 245 while operator is talking you hear under his breath shit gun. then the tapping…..

             • I think the phrase fcking coons is heard by anyone that listens to the tape and his mumbling at 2:45 seems even harder to decipher. Has anybody slowed it down to confirm?

       • Re: Firing a 9mm semiautomatic one handed. Yes, yes, you can. A semi does not need to be cocked — for that matter, neither do most modern revolvers — if there’s a round chambered. I would have to go back and look at the police info dump again, but I think when I read it initially they mentioned that he had a full clip, which means he was walking around with one chambered.

         The Kel-Tec is double-action only and it DOESN’T HAVE A SAFETY. It has a clip release and a slide release lever on the left of the gun, meant to be thumb-operated with one hand. As with any extremely light-weight semi, the recoil is pretty savage.

         There’s SKADS of YouTube video of people shooting Kel-Tecs one handed. http://tinyurl.com/KelTecOneHand

       • Hi Loree,

         WOW! I’ve posted several times on this blog about hearing him preparing the gun i.e. sliding the clip into the chamber. Yes, all that clicking, tapping is him preparing for the hunt. He even starts talking a little lower, and sounds a little distracted as he prepares it.

         Never got any replies and just figured folks posting here just weren’t too familiar with guns or the sounds during preparation. Well, not until I received a reply from DEBORAH D., one of our fellow commentors.

         I’ve also posted my theory on this blog about how his alleged injuries occurred. There is a high probability kickback caused his injuries, which might also explain why his DNA was not found under Trayvon’s fingernails.

         His minor injuries are basically in alignment with those that could be cause by kickback, especially the 2 points on his nose; the bridge and the tip, the minor, thin scratches on his head, and backache from being thrown to the ground resulting in the pinhole marks on the back of his head from hitting something hard or sharp. The gun was probably not positoned correctly when he fired it.

         As I mentioned to both DEBORAH D. the Kel-Tec 9mm is a very cheaply made gun which has tons of recoil. When they first came out, they were really popular. My son sold quite a few of them. However, it wasn’t long before customers started coming in complaining about the frequent jamming.

         T.G.

         • Sleuth – your clip loading comments definitely haven’t gone unnoticed (by me at least).

           Not that it matters but Tchoupi and I discussed this pretty early on in the original posting.

           Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Crime Scene Map Analyzed

           The noises could have been 911 dispatcher keyboard noises (though you don’t hear these noises at any other point in the call), a gun being loaded, door tapping (though Zimmerman was likely near/on Twin Trees proceeding south if map 2 is correct), building tapping to spook Trayvon (though Zimmerman was likely near/on Twin Trees proceeding south if map 2 is correct), etc.

           • To: No Longer Mass Emailing and Sleuth.
             To your question about slowing down the tape: I don’t know of any agency (FBI) or other listening specialist that has researched anything other then the F****G C**N portion. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done. Also, thank you for your compliment.

             To: Sleuth, I am somewhat new to this blog and did not read your earlier posts about the gun. I want to thank you for your response. I am glad that other people hear what I and many others have heard. I truly hope that information gets to the State of Florida. The entire 911 call should be scrutinized, not just the racial part which is important but not as important as to when he chambered the gun. It shows to me and I am not a lawyer by the way, that he had intent. That he wasn’t going to let another a****hole get away. As to the wounds, yes kickback could produce the bloody nose or likely broken nose if the gun was not postion away from the face correctly. I have also found a link that I believe I posted a couple of days ago with all the witnesses except for numbers 4,7, and 10 which the first discovery dump didn’t include. This site also has all four paramedics/fire rescue audio clips. I have tried to follow the map and the timing and I get lost. Actually I can get lost in a circle. I am better at listening and researching paperwork. What I would like to see on a blog is maybe a timeline with a map like this site does but with the neighbor’s 911 calls. For instance, we know that witness six John says he saw them wrestling and said cut it out I’m calling 911. Witness 19 the dog owner was going to let her dog out when she heard her neighbor say 911 (John) but beforehand she says she heard somthing like ugh a low moan like help me and closed her door to get a better look from her 2 story window and called 911. By the time Selma and roomm ate call 911 they state in their audio statement that they heard a whimpering and then gun shot. But they adamantly state that there was no whaling no punching no nothing. That George was standing over his body one foot planted on either side of him. She also stated that it looked like he was pressing on his chest or looking in his pockets. This suggest to me that he shot him while holding him down face up then turn him over to check to see if he had any weapons. The blood in the picture of Georges head is flowing forward. If he was on the bottom like he states the blood would be moving away from his face. Even if there was a fight and Trayvon was on top at one point and then George had gotten on top he was in control of the fight at that time he didn t need to use deadly forc . But that’s my take. Well anyway I didn’t realize I was typing so much. So I will provide the link so you can hear all the witness audio testimonies. http:// [redacted]. axiomamnesia . com/people/witnesses/
             Let me know what you think after you hear every audio including paramedics.
             Thanks Loree

             • Loree – Thank you again for the comment(s) and welcome!

               If you go through the comments of the original posting I published on 3/27 and this posting, you’ll notice I mention NEVER editing comments regardless of their content. But, I redacted a portion of the URL in your comment until the evidence cited becomes public.

               Please don’t take offense and feel free to keep commenting! I definitely appreciate the heads up and I’ve heard from several people that have listened to all of the witness statements on that site.

               If there’s something like this you’d like to email in the future, I can be reached at thelist@bcclist.com!

       • Lonnie, NLME,

         No, it does not take 2 hands to fire. Again, why don’t you do an experiment/field outing to your nearest range and see for yourself and report the results back to us. (smile)

         T. G.

         • YouTube clips are good enough proof for me. 🙂

           • Actually I just wanted that chewed up and spit out, as someone was posting it around. I’ve been having computer problems again, so I’ve been having to move quick through my mail and other task.

             The real point, that I was thinking about is that 4-5 lb trigger pull. That makes it really difficult to pull the trigger, if your wrist aren’t well positioned. Meaning that there are a whole lot of possible shots, that GZ could not possibly take, because his wrists would have to be a such an angle, it would be extremely difficult to get the kind of finger pressure needed.

             Remember that this shot is supposedly taken quickly, without much thought or positioning. If I recall, at one point his story is that it was accidental, of course, that would have been very quickly changed with a 4 to 5 lb trigger pull needed.

       • NLME,

         Please know, my comments to Loree were not intended to diminish anything that’s been posted on your blog. They were no more than observations and shared agreement with her theories. Before I posted to your blog, I read the previous comments before I posted any comments. There’s some really interesting stuff here.

         You have a wonderful blog, and have welcomed and allowed each us into your living room to share intelligent, insightful, and well thoughout theories about this needless, senseless, and horrific murder of an innocent, unarmed child.

         Yes, there were comments about the clicking/tapping noises sounding like knocks on doors or keyboards. I just don’t recall seeing any comments specific to the sounds/noises sounding like someone ”loading” a gun, or kickback as a theory for his alleged injuries.

         If such “specific” comments were made, please point them out. And if that’s the case, then it is definitely an oversight on my part, and ask that you please accept my apologies.

         To my best recollection, it was not until I re-posted to you regarding my theory about kickback being the cause of his alleged injuries did I first hear from you about it.

         As I recall, you even stated to me in that particular post, that it was the first time you heard of kickback as being considered as a theory, please correct me if that’s not the case.

         In re-reading my comments to recent fellow commentor Loree, I realize now that I was remiss in mentioning you, along with fellow commentor Deborah D. in my previous post about kickback and chambering. I accidentally left your name out of this sentence:

         “As I mentioned to both DEBORAH D. the Kel-Tec 9mm is a very cheaply made gun which has tons of recoil.”

         It should have read, “As I mentioned to both NLME and DEBORAH D. the Kel-Tec 9mm is a very cheaply made gun which has tons of recoil.”

         Please accept my apologies for this innocent oversight.

         As you know, there’s a whole lot of information on this blog, over 1,500 posts, so it would be very unrealistic of me, even a little arrogant I might add, to actually expect everyone posting here to notice everything I post, or even respond. Even Loree stated she never saw any of my posts about loading the gun or kickback. I just happen to see hers, and responded.

         After I re-posted to you, Deborah D., who apparently did see my posts, was the first commentor to share her theory about kickback. The next person was Loree.

         I have since noticed a few others are starting to have discussion about the gun actually being “chambered” before going on the hunt for a “f—ing _____, in addition to kickback as a theory for his alleged injuries.

         Yes, you’re absolutely right, and I agree, the noises could be a million and one things. At least you’re testing your theories. However, to me, and perhaps a few others, the noises sound like a gun being chambered, either while he was still just outside his truck or walking in pursuit of Trayvon. The knocking/tapping/clicking noises do not sound like keyboards or knocking on doors to me, never did, but very well could be.

         Why go knocking on doors if the police are coming? Why not just go back home? Why not just go on to Target? Heck, if he’s that scared, why not just drive on over to the police station? IMHO, he was not scared; maybe anxious, frustratted or excited, yes, but not scared.

         But like I always say, I strongly believe everyone is entitled to their theories and perceptions. It’s simply a matter of how individuals interpret and internalize data; objectively or subjectively.

         The confessed murderer perceived Trayvon as someone who was suspicious, even theorized he was up to no good. So far, we know his perceptions and theories were so wrong and proved deadly.

         Many of the original 911 callers described the sound of the gun as “a pop”, “a rock”, or “a boom”. Some even stated that prior to that aweful evening they had never actually heard a real gun being shot, and didn’t own a gun but somehow they knew it was a gun being shot.

         What’s even more interesting, at least to me, none of those callers had the benefit of knowing what we all now know, nor did they have access to 911 calls, police reports, call logs, maps, etc., but somehow they all managed to come to the right conclusion, someone had been shot, and murdered.

         It’s like the “f—-ing _____” thing. I really don’t care what the FBI concludes about it (that’s a post for another day). I’m sort of like Nancy Grace in that regard. I don’t need the FBI or NASA telling me what I know I heard, and neither do you. (smile)

         T. G.

         • You’re cool. It’s all good. You def were the first one to mention a kickback causing the injuries I think. It needs to be proven first but it’s an excellent observation.

           As for the tapping, knocking, and clicking, I didn’t want to go so far as to say it was a gun being loaded or door being tapped in my original comment on 4/2 until there was concrete evidence. That’s sort of how I roll. The suggestions that the noises are a door being tapped, a gun being loaded, or whatever first show up around here I think…

           https://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/#comment-13546
           https://bcclist.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map/#comment-13797

           Again, none of this really matters though. And, thank you for the kind words!

     • Apparently this is not true.

       http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/03/foghorn/the-truth-about-george-zimmermans-kel-tec-pf-9/

       It appears the gun used self cocks when the trigger is pulled.

       
       

       It does look like it would have a decent little recoil if you only used one hand and the hand was not extended.

359. There is a youtube video showing a demonstration on the gun model that zimmerman had. I will try and find it and post, in the meantime just google the gun model. This issue was discussed on another blog.

360. thats why he says shit gun its a cheap gun …..

     • Hi, I don’t know enough about guns to be able to distinguish the sounds of one being chambered. My belief, and many others, have thought that to be the sound of him ‘knocking/tapping’ at someone’s door. It sounds to me, like he says, “Sh^t, where you at?” We can only hope that prosecutors have had the entire call cleaned up.

       • i can hear that he says something but can’t make out any words, you guys must have better ears than me all i can hear is the dispatcher

361. It makes sense, if you are the phone and you chamber the gun and its a cheap gun you would say shit gun without even thinking that this phone call will eventually become part of a murder investigation. Also the tapping is well known to gun owners. Many people have wondered if the tapping is on a door, I believe the first few taps are him tapping the magazine in. I have to double check how many sounds of tapping there really are because normally a few taps to the magazine is all that is needed. If there are more then the usual taps for the loading of the magazine then its safe to assume he was tapping the flashlight or a door.
     Thanks Loree

362. Sorry didn’t finish my train of events… when he says whats your last name (clickclick gun being chambered) zimmerman as soon as he says his last name is when you hear him say “shit gun”. Also another observation is when he chambers the gun I believe the operator also understood the sound of the gun, his questions got more rapid and urgent of where he can be found and other questions, the questions were practically on top of one another.

363. Excellent point on the gun sounds during the 911 call. It will be interesting if the FBI were able to establish this as a gun sound. If so, it further evidences the fact that zimmerman was in pursuit and looking to confront TM.

364. Hi Tina,

     Thanks for attempting to help me make some sense out of this “John” and “Jeremy” mystery. I got the addresses, last names, and the names of the adult members of their households sometime ago for all the witnesses, but really rather not post them. especially since some are already posted.

     Okay, so there were only 2 calls to 911 made by adult males. The first male caller says, “I heard shots behind my house”, and with a somewhat nervous laugh says, “I’m not going outside”. Then all of a sudden, the call is dropped, disconnected or he just hung up the telephone.

     We hear a female caller saying, “Jeremy, get down, get back in here now, get up here, etc. to someone who sounds like a male, and speaks in a low voice in the background. He ends up going upstairs with the female caller.

     Jeremy and John are 2 different people, yes. But could “Jeremy” be one of the male callers? Neither of the 2 male callers make mention about “red” anything during their calls.

     The second male caller, the one I think people refer to as “John”, and the one who says “OMG, Holy Shet”, etc., never mentions anything about what color the person on the bottom is wearing. btw: I don’t think “Goldman” is his last name.

     It wasn’t until we heard “John’s” behind close doors interview, that we hear mention of “the person in the red sweater being on the bottom”. I think this interview took place the day after, or a couple of days after the murder. This would also be around the time the confessed murderer was at Twin Lakes-Retreat View re-enacting his crime and re-telling his version of events, i.e. more lies.

     A couple of questions keep coming to mind. Are the 2 male callers the same person? Are both calls made by “John”? Or is it possible one of the calls was made by Jeremy”? Or could it be some other male caller?…Hmmmmmm….If so, “John” may not be the ruthless, plotting, scheming character he’s being portrayed as being, and can probably be eliminated as the guy in the “white t-shirt” (at least I kind of think so at this point).

     According to Seminole County Clerk records, Jeremy and the female caller are most likely related, or may be a couple. He’s about 12 years younger than her. I’ll just say, the dude has a terrible track record.

     For some strange reason, I’ve been thinking “John” was just an anonymous name for “Jeremy”, so I’ve been attributing everything he’s been suspected of doing, to “Jeremy”. It’s actually “Jeremy” that’s my point of focus ever since the “whispers in the background” of the female caller.

     I guess what I’m trying to say is, there is a very, very high probability that “Jeremy” is the one to look at in terms of scheming and plotting, not “John”. I sort of had “Jeremy” figured out to be a schemer when I first heard the 8 original calls

     Thanks again.

     http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-grio/46771333/#46771333

     T. G.

     • Hi Sleuth,

       Let me see if I can clear things up a bit…you’ve already established John and Jeremy are different people. There’s only one ‘male’ to actually place call to 911, and that is John. Other male voices you hear, are Jeremy in background of his fiance’s call, where screams and gunshot is heard, and Austin, who speaks with dispatcher after his sister called 911. The evidence dump, however, shows statements given by 2 white males (John and Jeremy), and 1 asian, whose name is Jonathan(Jon). He is also same person that gives plastic bag and vaseline to officer to cover wound before giving CPR.

       John, in my opinion, is suspect because in his call to 911, he never mentions that he was ever outside, had seen the two scuffling, or that he spoke to them. Yet, during his written, recorded, and Fox interview, he was “Johnny-on-the spot”! Full if graphic details, many of which he now seems uncertain of. Jeremy, on the other hand, just happened to come outside after the shooting with his flashlight, encountered GZ, and was asked to call his wife, then took photo of GZ’s bloody head. Aside from that, there’s nothing suspect about him. If you listen to his recorded statement, he’s straight forward with his answers. How friendly he is with GZ is anyone’s guess. I didn’t get the sense that he was coming off as a ‘champion defender’ of GZ, like Taaffe and Oliver.

       • John (w6) has the full name of Johnathan, with two ‘h’s. W13 who went outside with the flashlight is named Jonathan (1 ‘h’). He lives directly across the alley from Jeremy. Jeremy did not go outside. Jeremy’s back porch is fully screened in, and I’ve been told that it doesn’t have a door (which seems odd from a fire-escape POV, but perhaps the screen could be easily knocked down in an emergency.

365. @Ace, Thanks. I agree with you, if the FBI can or already have established the sounds as to a gun being chambered after he already said these assholes get away, left his car, followed and then the operator asks for his information then chambers his gun, it shows to me his state of mind and his intent. It would be excellent information for the State to have against him in the trial. Many of us have heard on TV, real life, and Youtube the sound of a gun being chambered. If it is not hard for us to distinguish the sound, how about the experts?. Surely you would imagine that they heard it also. But I have a bad feeling that because so much exposure was put on the racial part of the call that what we hear and many others have heard may get overlooked. Witness 13, the guy with the flashlight said that GZ called the police after the murder. He did not want him to call 911 but to call his wife. He is also the one who took pictures with his phone. He says he took three. One of the back of his head and one of the body which he states shows the head and feet. The other one is maybe the big flashlight and little flashlight. My question to you or anyone is there proof postitve that gz called 911 immediately after the murder or do you think he told witness 13 that just for the sake of saying it? Another question, in the photo of bloody head he is clearly on the phone, but the police reports state he was immediately cuffed and sitting in back of cop car. Can anyone provide a link of photo with timestamp of when photo was taken. Thanks Loree

     • I would bet money he is calling his father and setting the self defense story in motion at that point in time. The weird thing is OK, you have just been supposedly attacked and had to shoot someone in self defense and the first thought you have is “hey man take a picture of my bloody head?” The irony is this photo may likely come back to haunt him because as many have correctly pointed out, the blood is shown trickling down ths side of his head “only” and looks inconsistent with someone lying on their back (no grass etc.)

     • did the guy who took the photos say why he did it (i haven’t had time to go through all the evidence yet, got assignments due). Did zimmerman ask him to take the photo’s and why did he take photos of trayvons body? Did they try to help trayvon at all or just attend to zimmermans every demand….and is this the guy who apparently knew zimmerman? Sorry for all the questions, i wish i had more time to view the evidence dump in greater detail but at the moment i’m relying on all you guys here to fill me in, thanks in advance.

366. Loree
     he was held at gunpoint by the first officer on the scene, a fairly routine thing to do I imagine at a crime scene when the perpetrator is still there. Then he said he shot him and the gun is in his waistband. They take the gun and handcuff him, all routine I guess. They’d not take him to the police car until a few other police arrived, over the next few minutes.

     The photo of the bloody head from before the cops got there. Their arrival time in their reports is about 20 or 30 seconds after the shooting, but that is to the gate. They had to drive down Twin Trees to realise the action was in the backyards, then come back up again. One 911 caller on the phone actually says no, not the front, around the back. So they didn’t walk into the scene for nearly another 2 minutes. The picture was taken in this gap. I can’t find a link but I recall the timestamp on the photo was more than 2 minutes after the shot.

     No there is nothing to say GZ called 911 after the shooting. When witness 13 asked should he call, he probably said something like ” i already called them” referring to BEFORE, ie they’re already on the way, just call my wife and tell her what happened. I don’t think he ever meant to imply he’d called after the shooting. He was just saying they were on the way.

     We don’t know who GZ was phoning. Not the cops and not his wife. It will be on the phone logs but they’ve not been released yet. It will be very VERY interesting to see.

367. @ Aussie, thanks for your response.
     I went back and doubled check witness 13 audio and I found @ the 3:57 mark of his 17 minute audio, he says ” I was shining my flashlight on the guy, I think he was on the phone sounded like he was on the phone and so why don’t you call 911, he says I just got off the phone with them. I believe he did call 911 only because witness 13 took the picture of him being on the phone and he states in his interview that he sounded like he was on the phone already. If the officers arrived at the gate at 7:17 and didn t get to the back until two or three minutes. It actually fits your picture time frame. Also I believe witness 15 is the audio of his 911 call. It has no written or interview following witness 15 information. I have read that w-15 is actually the sister calling for w-14, Austin. But it doesn t make sense to list two 911 calls when there was only one 911 call made but two people were on the call. Also, why wouldn’t the sister at least provide a statement or be interviewed. The wives of other witnesses provided statements and audio interviews even though they did not call 911. She is a minor, so was Austin and he was interviewed. Your thoughts? Thanks Loree

     • Thank you Loree. I just listened to it and that clears up a whole bunch for me. Apparently, witness 13 took three pictures of the crime scene. Unfortunately, his pictures were taken after George Zimmerman tampered with the crime scene — see Witness 6’s testimony that Trayvon Martin was dead in a sprawled position (not in the hands under his body position the police found him in) and Witnesses Mary and Selma that saw George Zimmerman atop of the Trayvon Martin corpse in positions they describe as administering CPR on Trayvon Martin’s *back and *checking Trayvon Martin’s pulse.

       • No problem Common Sense. I would love to know why he laughed when he was showing the pictures to the interviewer. I thought that was strange, but anyway it would be interesting to see his pictures compared to the the crime scene photos. Dead people don’t move. How is it that he was described in a sprawled or swimming postion to his arms underneath him? Maybe he was still alive and try to put his hands to his chest? It just crossed my mind, witness 19 the dog owner says she heard him moaning and groaning from the kid on the ground (@4:50)in the 14 minute audio interview. Maybe that’s why he was pressing on him? It would suggest he was alive for a little while. She even states that the woman paramedic said to keep going.

         • I don’t have a source/link because I’m on my phone but…

           There was at least a small glimmer of life – heart reading only…there was absolutely no (voluntary) body movements by Trayvon possible – when responders showed up. Not much…at all…but something.

           In fact, there’s another link out there indicating responders considered an air ambulance but called it off because of the weather.

           I will try to remember to post these links later. A BccList.com “evidence dump” is coming this week. 🙂

       • Oh dear, I wish they’d stop letting witnesses say what they think may be going on. Administering CPR? who knows? they should be told to keep to describing what they SAW… what movements, where, in what order.

         Anyway you can’t do CPR from the back.

         Witness 6 saw him with is arms sprawled out. Mary and Selma saw GZ doing something on his back. He was face down arms under him when the police got there. GZ stated he jumped on his back as unsure if he was badly injured (ie if injured enough to be no further “threat”). All this before anyone else got out there. So if he was moved, he was moved by GZ.

         And the easy way to get a dead body’s arms under the body is roll him over onto his back, bring the arms down, roll him back again.

         Though with maybe a hood on the face, from a distance, in the dark (which everyone is now relying on to explain changing their stories) … can you be sure if the body you’re looking at is on his back or on his stomach?

         I can’t see a particular need for the arms to be under the body (to suit any story). I do see a HUGE need for him to be face down, to appear as if he’d been on top when he was shot. An above-the-head arm would be great for leverage for turning an uncooperative body.

         How, in any case, did any of the witnesses identify TM as a “young kid” or “kid” in the dark? did they just assume, from his build and clothing? did they go close enough to see his face? and they just assumed he was dead, nobody felt for a pulse even……… John says he’s dead without even going outside (or so he says) while still on the phone on the same call in which he claims he just heard the shot. Good thing the paramedics at least try CPR for a while before calling someone dead.

       • @Aussie –

         “Witness 6 saw him with is arms sprawled out. Mary and Selma saw GZ doing something on his back. He was face down arms under him when the police got there. GZ stated he jumped on his back as unsure if he was badly injured (ie if injured enough to be no further “threat”). All this before anyone else got out there. So if he was moved, he was moved by GZ.”

         That is entirely the point. I had heard the CPR suggestion (which of course makes no sense if you know the body is face down per other witnesses). After listening to the full audio of Selma and Mary, I heard them say “checking his pulse”. That could be the reason the hands were found in an un-natural position.

         I do not think Zimmerman turned him over. I think Zimmerman pushed Trayvon Martin’s hands under his body conceal Zimmerman’s attempts to put Trayvon Martin’s prints/dna on Zimmerman’s gun.

     • Loree,
       in all the released, leaked and alleged/second-hand stories, there is not a single one claiming GZ did call 911 after the shooting. Nothing in the evidence dump either.

       “I just got off the phone with them” would be, IMO, a reference to the long call to the non-911 number that has already been released. Just a way of saying “i have them on the way already” without going into a long story about how/why he rang them 5 minutes earlier (which wouldn’t look good on the spot, either, for his self-defence claim).

       Because they’d already told him cars were being sent there (because of his suspicions) there would be no need for him to call them again. Witnesses were also stating they were calling 911 even before the shot.

       Yes he is on the phone in that photo. But not to the police and not to his wife. Who to? we will only find out when the call logs get published.

       WHO is so important to notify, that he’d call them within 30 seconds of shooting someone dead? So important, he wants to get that call in before the cops get there.

       “He attacked me, I had to shoot him”……..not a word, not a breath, of ” oh God, I just killed someone….” just pick up the phone and tell someone about it. WHO???

       =========
       “But it doesn t make sense to list two 911 calls when there was only one 911 call made but two people were on the call….” I think they mean 911 callers, not actual incoming phone calls. Callers as in people they spoke to on 911 calls. So if they spoke to 2 they may list them separately, to keep the 2 statements separated. The sister was not a witness, she was just relaying what her brother was telling her, so maybe they didn’t feel a need to interview her (and the mother may have had something to say about that, too). Spouses/room-mates were interviewed to get what they had seen/heard.

       • Calling a cop for a suspicious person and calling 911 for a person that he just shot are 2 different things. If he tells them that he shot someone, they would send medical help/trauma team. The fact that he didn’t call 911 makes me thinks he meant for this kid to die too. This may be one of the pieces of evidence used against him. If he moved that body but didn’t bother calling for help, he’ll be sorry.

       • but he had already told the woman to call 911, maybe that is what he meant. I wonder if in the “confession” they don’t want to release he admitted to drawing the gun earlier? well thats just a random thought, i guess he could have said anything that revealed his mind set/motivation/actions that night and i can’t wait to hear that.

368. @NLME, I want to thank you for your blog. As Sleuth says we are in your living room per se, its a great place to have a civil and intelligent conversations. I thank you again kind sir.

     • While seemingly impossible, I assure you I appreciate these discussions more than everyone here combined. 🙂

       Thank you – and everyone – (again) for the insightful comments.

369. Please provide link when possible a million thanks in advance!

     • Link regarding an air ambulance for Trayvon being called off because of weather (at the end of the clip)…

       http://www.clickorlando.com/news/New-Trayvon-Martin-dispatch-recordings-raise-questions/-/1637132/9959562/-/v7bf3g/-/index.html

       The blog posting below mentions a possible EKG reading but doesn’t link to a source. I’ll try to find one.

       http://sandrarose.com/2012/04/2nd-ambulance-was-cancelled-for-george-zimmerman/

       • Thanks! :^ )

370. For anyone interested in making their own crime scene map, there’s a high res wide-area aerial view of tThe Retreat here:
     http://www.mediafire.com/?pyyt1nb74t1wqk6

     It doesn’t have a scenario on it. There are labels for some of the key locations, but it’s a Photoshop file with everything in layers so it’s easily editable. The locations are marked in color and the underlying map is in black and white, but there’s a color layer under that, so you can just turn off the b+w layer to see things in color.

     There are also ardage scales running from the clubhouse over to East RVC, down the vertical leg of TTL, and down the ‘alley’ sidewalk. This should make it easier to calculate total distances TM or GZ would have traveled, moving at different speeds along those routes, matching those to the time info embedded in the calls, etc.

     • Wow, thanks, whonoze. I just scraped a Google map and scribbled on it with Windows Paint. (the best graphics program I own, you can see I’m really into it 😉
       .

371. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/26/interesting-development-trayvon-martin-quid-pro-quo-at-the-7-11/

     I thought that I’d send in an interesting point of view with different angles in the 711 store with Trayvon and these 3 young men who came in afterward. The way they dress are for more suspicious then Trayvon was dressed. As far as I am concerned Trayvon still did not look suspicious with what we see in the video. If he had looked like one of the other 3 young men, then I can see he might look suspicious to Zimmerman. Still…

     The FACT remains, he should not have died. Zimmerman should have minded his own business or let the police do their work. Again, I will say if I saw Zimmerman following me and possibly chasing me with a gun ( we don’t know if Z had it out and was waving it around), I’d run or I’d fight.

     Trayvon should not have died in this altercation. I hate hearing people speak of drugs in trayvon therefore he deserved to have been approached by Zimmerman …….. People need to wake up ! Our North American society is replete with it. Just bc someone uses it does not mean they become violent, nor combative.

     I’m interested in anyone’s else’s take on the link I provided.

     • And, those kids bought blunts! Can you imagine if Trayvon bought a blunt?!?

     • I just checked out the link…that was a mistake/waste of time (but obviously at no fault of yours).

       I think the writer is suggesting those kids were hanging out with Trayvon and bought him a blunt (?). While anything is possible, that’s laughable.

       Why?

       If they were friends, it makes no sense for Trayvon to go into the store before and leave after his pals. Instead, they would all just go into and leave 7/11 at the same time. Meaning, it’s (thankfully) acceptable for whites to hang out with blacks now in America.

       Adds: What’s the likelihood of Trayvon having many friends in Sanford?

       • The guys on that site are thinking, they were strangers he just asked to buy them for him, as the clerk refused to sell to him without ID. One of the guys also bought a lighter. TM had a 7-11 lighter on him, but no receipt for one.

         So this does not look totally unlikely.

         They also explain the long time it took him to get back to the estate by suggesting he may have stopped to smoke a blunt. But this doesn’t fit with the autopsy evidence, as the drug level was too low to be fresh.

         Then they also suggest he may have run to be able to hide the blunt, if he thought GZ might be calling the cops.Though owning a blunt is not illegal. ??? perhaps it is, if he’s too young to smoke, officially.

         None of which, of course, would make him attack GZ.

         • Interesting…thank you. Did Trayvon get carded/denied a blunt?

           Nobody gets in trouble for having a blunt on them just like nobody asks somebody to buy them one. Booze, yes. Blunts, no.

           Of course, none of this matters…it’s just more planted/planned distraction.

       • Some on that site have put genuine serious work into analysing those videos. They’re okay.

         The owner/main guy seems more than a little one-eyed.

         The whole lot of them make me laugh though. They’re trying to take the line TM did the attacking because of being crazy from drugs…. and they all turn out to have tremendous amount of inside information and knowledge of all aspects of drug use. Prices, packaging, the lot. But none of them have ever gone paranoid and attacked an armed man.

       • I most definitely second the, “of course, none of this matters,” statement.

         First: Their primary “proof” that it was Trayvon is because he has two folded dollars, and Trayvon also had two folded dollars. OH MY GOD!!!! There is no way there could be two sets of folded dollars in the same 7-11 store! Beyond this, they say there’s a guy in khakis five minutes after Trayvon left, therefore it must be Trayvon. Talk about a conspiracy theory. And of course, why would Trayvon want two blunts? “Larry, Mo, and Curly” (as they’re described on the website) are three guys, so buying three blunts kinda makes sense. Trayvon buying two doesn’t make any sense, and running to hide his blunts from a random citizen as that website claims. Or even more ridiculous, packing and smoking two entire blunts in the 1 minutes that passes between this tape and Zimmerman spotting him, AND magically only having trace amounts of THC in his system.

         Second: Even if this absolutely astonishingly complicated conspiracy were true, since when do private citizens get to shoot one another because one of the two has a blunt? There’s a guy across the street from me that literally deals for a living. He has screamed it down the middle of the street; declaring, “I have a job, I sell drugs!” (In response to the unemployed section 8er that used to live next door to me) He has a trove of 13-17 year old kids that go in and out of his house running for him. I not only don’t have the right to shoot him or follow him, but the police don’t even have the legal right to search his place and bust him for dealing or even possession without better evidence.

         This case is not about drugs, theft, racism, or any of the other crazy stuff people keep bringing up.

         It all boils down to whether or not Zimmerman physically confronted Zimmerman, or whether or not Zimmerman posed enough of a threat to Trayvon to justify Trayvon defending himself.

         If a jury were to find that Zimmerman did not physically confront Trayvon, and his behavior did not pose a large enough threat to excuse Trayvon defending himself, then the logical conclusion that the Jury would have reached is that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, and second degree murder is off the table.

         If second degree murder is off the table, the question would come down to whether or not Trayvon was beating Zimmerman to an extent that would give Zimmerman reasonable justification to fear for his life, and therefore shoot and ultimately kill Trayvon. If jury believed this, then it would be determined self-defense, and Zimmerman would walk.

         Only evidence that supports or refutes this is relevant. These other sideshows are nothing but a distraction trying to muddy the water.

         When it comes to Trayvon’s past, the only part that would be relevant would be his history with regards to violence. As far as I’ve seen, they haven’t found any history that relates to this, which is why they keep going back to weed. His outfit is also irrelevant, as no article of clothing justifies stalking or killing a person.

         When it comes to Zimmmerman’s past, racism only matters if he has a history of violent acts against blacks. Otherwise, whether or not he’s a racist would be irrelevant. As far as I’ve seen, no history of violence towards blacks has been found.

         Zimmerman’s past as community watch/security guard and his history of violence are most definitely relevant. Examining the timeline, locations/maps, and matching it with his story is definitely relevant. Each of their phone communications during the incident are relevant. The physical evidence and each one of their bodies after the fact is relevant. Witness testimonies are clearly relevant.

         Discussions that go beyond these points should not be brought up, and hopefully the lawyers will object if they are brought up, and hopefully the judge will keep a proper courtroom and sustain the objections.

       • so a blunt is what exactly? is it a cigar? or a joint? I am so uncool i don’t even know what it is haha. He only had traces of THC (or whatever it was) in his system suggesting he might have smoked some drugs days ago but definately not on the day he was shot. I don’t think he would be taking drugs back to his house to smoke and he wouldn’t be planning to stand outside in the rain to smoke so i can’t see it happening but i haven’t seen the video of these guys so i don’t really know. Did the video show trayvon talking to them or anything?

         • Yes, a cigar. People – especially young affluent people – rarely smoke them as is. Instead, the horribly cheap tobacco is gutted, the shell filled with pot, and the adapted cigar is blazed.

       • thanks. was there any vision of him talking to these guys or is it just that they walked in after him?

         • The 3 guys came in sometime after Trayvon. I believe the camera is time lapsed based on motion being detected so it could have been seconds or minutes after he left.

           “Worst” case: Unreleased footage from a parking lot camera shows Trayvon hanging out in their car before/after they separately enter the store. So what?

           • While there’s no way to figure what went on, absent some additional info, it’s nothing that has anything to do with the shooting.

             I can speculate that, since he’s been in this area before, played football and other sports with people his own age, he’d probably have connected with some of them. That being so, and it being a rainy night, I’d say that like most teens he’d welcome a reason to get out of the house and meet with some friends.
             A phone call would have facilitated that (older people keep forgetting about cell phones, how ubiquitous they are, and how they allow everyone to get and stay connected 24/7 anywhere).

             Easy enough for him or his friends to set up a meet. Which prompts TM to ask his brother if he wants anything from the store, since he plans to go. As to who was buying what for whom we can’t begin to guess, because they all went into the store and we don’t know if they met outside, or what the arrangement was. All we do know is, no crime was committed, nor was anything done that had any impact on what GZ was doing. That is, unless someone wants to speculate that GZ knew one of these guys and was using them to get TM set up. I think that line of thinking will probably be a dead end, unless the white guy is part of some extreme undercover white power cult.

             (I recall a news story, just for example, where these white guys from NJ were attending a white power concert in So. Dakota. On their trip back, they stopped at a small store in Michigan and began harassing a black boy they caught in the store. The black boy pulled a gun hand shot their group leader to death, the store video caught it all and the boys confessed to the rest. The black had got away, the police put the search for him on the back burner.
             Which, just goes to show that you never know where you’re going to find a rabid wp guy or gang, less discover what they’re up to, until you take a good look for them. Like the Klan, they know to keep themselves hidden from view as much as they possibly can.)

             So, someone may want to pursue it, but I don’t think it will bear much fruit.
             Let’s get back to the timeline and evidence.

       • well it’s slightly better than some of the other accusations made against him….that he must have stolen the skittles and iced tea from the 7/11..and the anticipation of some video footage to prove that he is a thief so george’s suspicions would be right….oh but there was also a few people demanding to know if he really had skittles and iced tea….i have no idea why that was an issue but to some people it was a big one…. and another time skittles was drug talk for some sort of drug and iced tea really meant something else and they were convinced of that one for a while….but when the video showed he actually paid for his purchase it became the ‘lean’ story, and now a blunt. I’m waiting to see how he is going to be blamed for the miami face eating incident….

       • What made me check out that video was the fact that they were basing their comments on actual store videos, and what they think they saw and heard.

         Same as we’re doing with the witness tapes etc., In other words not wild totally invented stuff like the gold teeth (or that IF the g/f is pregnant that makes him a rapist).

         They are looking for possible motives for TM to have attacked GZ, or to run from him for reasons other than fear of being followed. Same as were are looking for possible motives for GZ to have done the
         attacking.

         This is a legitimate inquiry. You have to respect that, even if we think they’re totally wrong or mistaken. And even if none of this is admissible in court.

         Fact does remain, the THC shown in the autopsy does not indicate any same-day use of weed.

         • Anything to say Trayvon was doing something unlawful (I.e. Zimmerman’s illegal activity was offset by Trayvon’s) instead of just walking home with some snacks.

           I can’t imagine – per what has been released – O’mara taking this angle. You never know though…he’s gotta have some form of defense that I don’t see possible yet.

372. Here’s the whole point about GZ. GZ went into the darkness that TM had just run into because TM was scared. GZ didn’t feel in danger because he had a GUN. That shows intent on GZs part to use the gun if he felt he had to for protection but GZ didn’t need to protect himself because he should never have followed. GZ could have stayed in his vehicle till the cops arrived but he chose not to.

     Bottom line of this shooting is an overzealous Neighborhood Watch guy overstepping his authority which led to a tragic shooting because NW guy was also armed.

     GZ had the GUN. GZ went after TM thinking if he caught up with him GZ would hold TM at gunpoint till the cops got there and he’d be a hero. Thwarting a would be robber. What GZ didn’t bank on was TMs reaction. TM, because he was innocently walking home and not out to rob, was scared and fought back. If TM were out robbing I can guarantee he would have jumped the wall (it isn’t that high) and been gone. GZ isn’t as smart as he thinks he is. He profiled TM all wrong right from the start. But GZ thinks he is smart enough to lie his way out of this, you can tell this by his ever changing stories.

     • @Jon

       You’re on point with that post! Headlines read the exact opposite of what he had imagined…

373. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/01/12010484-judge-revokes-bail-for-george-zimmerman-in-trayvon-martin-case?lite/

     Judge revoked GZs bail for covering up the money he raised from his website and hiding a 2nd passport… He has 48 hours to turn himself in… Not going to lie – im happy with this news

     • I found a clip from the hearing and apparently charges may be brought against his wife for lieing under oath. They have phone conversations between them prior to the bond hearing speaking in “code” about moving money around between accounts. Since she misrepresented her finances under oath she could stand a felony offense for that and his bond is revoked…..I kinda can’t help but laugh.

       http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmermans-bond-revoked-16476548

       • Yeah, and also GZ was instructing his wife NOT to pay the full bond if it was more than $15K — leaving over $100K available to possibly flee on along with his extra passport.

374. haha, this is going to be interesting……

     Take a guy who can’t keep his mouth shut, make him feel he’s been done wrong by, stick him in a jail with sympathetic listeners as to “why” he was wronged………. I wonder what versions he’ll be telling his cellmates?

375. GZ ordered back to jail. LMAO. Just another twist of the truth right from GZs mouth. The second secret passport GZ had tells me GZ was planning on taking off.

     • Just a back-up plan.

       Can’t blame him for that.

       Two weeks after the shooting, when he replaced that passport, they may have still charged him. Without the publicity, no fancy pro bono lawyers, just a few minutes with a free public defendant, his chances are not too good.

       A LOT of people would choose to go for a trip, rather than 20+ years jail for something they feel, in their heart of hearts, they did nothing wrong.

       Of course with the publicity, the money comes rolling in, even more tempting to take the trip.

       I am certain this trip idea was not premeditated. Nothing .he does is premeditated (or “meditated” at all). He reacts, he gets swept up, driven by a huge ego covering abysmal self-esteem. He’s always reacting (to people, to situations) , that is why it is never his fault, whatever happens.

       • Nice analysis aussie. To me, it seems to fit.

376. <> I can understand Trayvon wanting to lead GZ away from the house but does anyone else think that it might have been at this point that the gun was shown? Maybe as I am sure someone mentioned GZ thought Trayvon was about to rob the home. It might explain why he ran away again instead of trying to enter the house.He might have been scared the man wanted to hurt him and his brother.

     • Ugh. I don’t even want to think about a scenario like this – gives me more of the chills – but, maybe.

     • Deborah, GZ already thought he was about to rob a home 5 minutes before.

       By DeeDee’s account, he was “at his father’s house” so wasn’t going to run. People are not pinpoint accurate when they talk (as we are finding out from the confused/confusing witness statements). “AT” does not necessarily mean close enough to touch it. It means within sight, within a few steps. Just think about how you’ve used the expression heaps of times.

       She says TM spoke first.

       No key was found on TM. To get in he may have had to bang on the door and wait for Chad to let him in. Not feasible. Certainly not going to do that with GZ already standing there, the creepy guy that’s still following, now close enough to push into the house if the door is opened.

       I think he kept walking for a bit before turning to ask why he’s following. They scuffled. This might be where he swung the bag containing the tea can (getting GZ on the nose). Kept going north UNTIL GZ pulls the gun and tells him to go towards his truck. (NOW it starts to really feel like kidnap). He tries to run back down, suddenly feels it’s safer to turn and try to grab the gun hand.

       I dunno. I am certain he knew about the gun before the last fight started. Actually GZ told someone (his brother??) he forgot about the gun until he noticed that TM had noticed it. Except he places this moment half-way into the fight. I think it was before, and he showed it on purpose, with a “don’t make me use this” kind of attitude, trying to make TM go to the truck to wait for the cops.

       I believe “exposing” a concealed-carry gun in a public place is a serious offence, or so I’ve heard. The idea is to CONCEAL the weapon so as not to put fear into people walking by. So exposing it would be enough to bring SYG into play for the other party.

377. I know some folks here think they can hear Zimmerman manipulating his gun during his police call. I’m skeptical, and I don’t think it matters anyway. See this blog post for details:

     http:// [redacted]. com/ct6xsmd

     • Your link doesn’t work, it wants a password.

       Anyway I’ve seen it, they say it sounds like a magazine being tapped in. Doesn’t matter, as we all know from the outcome that the gun was loaded.

       But that doesn’t mean he didn’t holster it again (wouldn’t want a neighbour seeing him waving around, and at that stage he didn’t know where TM was or if he’d be able to find him again).

     • whonoze — The link (apparently) isn’t working. Do you have an alternative one?

       • On one of the sites I’ve read, it says that GZ always carried his gun on patrols. If so I’m sure the SP is aware of it. That’s wrong on two counts, first because NW’ers should not be doing patrols in the first place, since that is another program entirely. According to the NSA, patrols are only done in specially marked police cars and no weapons of any kind are allowed. NW’ers don’t do patrols, period. So if GZ went on patrols, he was again in violation of the rules he was given by the SPD!

       • I feel like the stories are becoming too intricate and too unable to be proven.

         It’s a mistake in my opinion.

         I don’t understand why the new map was created, I assume based on the one witness’s testimony which most people don’t believe anyways. I know that many pro-Zimmerman websites are still using maps that look nearly identical to the original map that had both Zimmerman and Trayvon north of the point of final contact at the end of the 911 call, and never had either one of them anywhere near the location where he and his father were staying.

         This map still seems most likely to me, and is also most damning to Zimmerman’s story.

         Reasons why I dislike the new map:
         1) Why would Zimmerman get out of his car to follow Trayvon if Trayvon had continued down the street? Wouldn’t Zimmerman had stayed in his car until the end of the block?
         2) Why would Trayvon have passed the house and continued north?
         3) Where does the 911 tape end, and where would the logical path of Trayvon have been home from this point, and the logical path back to Zimmerman’s car be at that point?

         I think the new map is puzzling and ridiculous, and the new stories being concocted both on the pro-Zimmerman and pro-Trayvon side equally as ridiculous.
         The pro-Zimmerman stories are now making it out to Trayvon being damn near a gangster that wanted to start a fight to prove how tough he was, and hide is supposed drugs prior to getting in the altercation.
         The pro-Trayvon side seems to be turning this story into a psycho racist hunting down and killing a black kid.

         Neither of these are logical or founded in reality. This was in fact an accident. I don’t think Zimmerman had malice in his heart when he started this, and I don’t think Trayvon is some gangster looking to pick a fight and hide his drugs. Neither of their pasts make either of those theories plausible.

         This all being said, it being an accident does not alleviate Zimmerman of responsibility. This accident still meets the definition of second degree murder by Florida law. He did follow this kid and confront this kid with a gun. When a fight ensued, he did in fact shoot Trayvon with the intention of killing him. The fact that he honestly believed Trayvon was a thief is irrelevant, because Trayvon was not a thief and was not breaking the law. Whether he believed Trayvon was a thief because he was a racist, or just because he has an itchy trigger finger is irrelevant as well.

         Stick to the basics and don’t compliate the issue with crazy theories, because those theories cannot be proven and they introduce reasonable doubt to the jury.

         • I may be confused — is this the new map you don’t like?

           

           Or, a different new map not hosted on BccList.com?

       • Clif is referring, I think, to the down_Twin_Trees then up_inner_path maps.

         clif, we rejected the inner-path idea a long time ago, because (a) it was based on GZ’s story which we didn’t believe and (b) we didn’t believe it partly because the times don’t add up that way.

         1) Why would Zimmerman get out of his car to follow Trayvon if Trayvon had continued down the street? Wouldn’t Zimmerman had stayed in his car until the end of the block?

         No, he has a a chance NOW to be only 20 yards behind him, and see where he goes. If he follows by car, and TM ducks between buildings, by the time he parks and gets out, he’s lost him completely.

         2) Why would Trayvon have passed the house and continued north?

         aahhhmmm… because GZ was chasing him?

         He’s in the vicinity of the house, not necessarily right there. And may need to knock and wait to be let in. And no hurry, he’s lost the creepy guy, feels safe now, talking on phone. Then GZ turns up again (most likely from south of path where it joins Twin Trees). North is the only way for TM to go, to get away from him.

         3) Where does the 911 tape end, and where would the logical path of Trayvon have been home from this point, and the logical path back to Zimmerman’s car be at that point?

         Ah, the main reason for the map. On GZ versions, TM first ran to the top path then “towards the back entrance” down the T junction. (Not possible for him to see him make this turn, from any possible position for his car). THEN he gets out. The “lost him, he ran” is supposed to be when he has a view down the long path.

         On his father’s version, he then goes along the TOP of the T to look for an address, and gets jumped on the way back to his car. This puts him “looking for an address” for more than a minute and a half.
         On Frank Taaffe’s version he goes DOWN the path to look for an address, (which covers a bit more time but makes even less sense, as no addresses or street signs there) and THEN gets jumped at the T on his way back.

         Both these seek to explain (a) what he was doing at the T so long after supposedly calling off the chase and going back to his truck and (b) how it was TM that sneaked up on him.

         TM’s logical path was down Twin Trees, all the way or to the last unpaved cut-through, possibly a short stop to catch his breath in the shelter of a wall. GZ’s logical path is to continue down Twin Trees, just walking now, until he rounds the bottom corner and catches sight of TM at the south end of the inner path. This is where he cancels the meeting at the mailboxes, and tells the cops to call him when they get there (as he doesn’t know where he will be).

         He hangs up then goes UP the path the 2 or 3 houses to where TM is staying, and TM asks him why are you following me? There is an argument and scuffle (per DeeDee), TM has nowhere to run except north again. It ends up another moving argument, a wrestling match and a shooting, 20 yards from the T.

         The map everyone is using, all action being along the top of the inner path, fails to account for a lot of the missing time. It also implies TM hung around to attack someone whose whereabouts he had no idea about. They lost each other after the first (9/11 recorded) run, so he’d have no idea where GZ was, so can’t be waiting around for him.

         Also both DeeDee’s statement and the witnesses about the 2 moving arguments tell us GZ came across TM, not the other way around, and that this happened towards the south end. Had GZ approached TM along the path, moving south, TM’s avenue of escape would have been to go further south, NOT north to where the shooting happened.

         “..logical path back to Zimmerman’s car be at that point?..” he’d be 1/3 or 1/2 way down Twin Trees when advised to stop following. The logical path is to turn around and walk back up Twin Trees. But he sounds distracted the whole time on the phone, like he’s concentrating on something else, not on the call. He suddenly refuses the mailbox meeting with “actually get them to call me” which indicates he does not know where he will be when the cops arrive. Which indicates he is NOT going up Twin Trees back to his vehicle. Why doesn’t he know? because he’s just found TM again and doesn’t know where they’ll end up.

         This neatly fits with an “almost accident” theory. No intention to kill. Just throwing his weight around demanding answers without saying who he is to be asking, a grab to stop TM leaving, TM hits back and runs, which confirms the “suspicion”. These azzholes always get away. So he chases. TM sees the gun (GZ said so), tries to disable GZ so he can’t use it. Fails. Dies.

         GZ knows he’s the aggressor if the true chase route becomes known (he WAS told to stop). So tries to exaggerate his injuries, maybe fakes the scene a bit with dropping his keys at the T junction; certainly seems to frisk TM hoping to find a weapon to justify his suspicions. Quick thinking, yes. But he has a hstory of his losing his temper always being someone else’s fault, he knows how to make excuses.

378. Well your latest argument is far better than most being asserted, and makes a lot less guesses into intricate details that can never be known. That being said, I’d like to point out a few things I consider “holes.”

     A) These aren’t single family homes, these are condos. This is important because Trayvon can’t simply “duck between homes.” There are only 2 places on the entire block where Trayvon could have “ducked” between houses, and only 1 between where the latest map has Zimmerman parked and the end of the block. Beyond this, this is a suburban gated community with driveways. Parking would not have been an issue.
     

     B) Timelines are better for proving that something couldn’t have happened because there wasn’t enough time than they are for proving something couldn’t have happened because there is too much time. People have the ability to walk/run slower, could hide to avoid detection, or take an unconventional path in order to lose a tail. Linking Trayvon hiding to Trayvon surprising/attacking Zimmerman is a false assumption. Most people actually hide for the purpose of not being found, not in order to lay in wait for their victim.

     • Precisely.

       Not to be found.

       So suddenly jumping out and attacking the person you don’t want to be found by is rather counter productive. No louder way to say HERE I AM.

       HEY WHAT IS THAT PHOTO?

       who has it? what is the provenance? we’ve been looking for ages for where his car was parked or, indeed, what kind of car it was.

     • But GZ specifically says that TM is headed toward the back gate. If he is sitting on Twin Trees in his truck there seems only one way that he could see this and that is if TM stayed on Twin Trees for a while. Not to say that GZ has to be a liar, but to do a proper investigation the SP would have had to consider that he is not a objective witness. The best way to do this is to only consider GZ words and descriptions before he knew that others would be listening and analyzing. That would be the recorded call to the dispatcher. The motives and ideas reflected are more GZ’s real state of mind and not on the defense about murder.

379. i must admit i haven’t gone back and checked all the maps but i have always assumed trayvon went off road (the cut off as george said) and ran south (or maybe straight across) but i always thought he left the road. I wasn’t sure how the altercation happened at the top of the T though, but since i read zimmermans father said in the reenactment george walked down the path all the way south to see a street sign. To me that meant last time zim saw martin he was heading down the path..i don’t think he was looking for a street sign of course, he was following martin, lost him, and continued where he thought martin was heading…..of course this just means that martin probably did make it home and george, who’s father said walked all the way south, then ended up at trayvons back dooor (or very near it). Then he chased or was chased.

     • I agree Jo. It always struck me as odd that he would walk to RV Circle or even in that inner path to check street signs, when he could have used his car to drive around looking at signs and addresses. Also, another thing that strikes me as odd is him driving to target with the gun in holster. Why would he? He wouldn’t encounter a dog driving. I suspect that GZ had this gun in the car beside him and may actually keep it there. I think that he puts it on to leave the car and pursue this kid. The last thing that is REALLY disturbing is the lack of defense wounds or the use of his hand in anyway to scratch or claw at Martin. It means that GZ had the upper hand in someway, while the perception from the physical fight gives the appearance of it being the other way around. No one is afraid for their life and doesn’t fight at all. Clearly he wants to live. My guess is that the gun was out early on. Why would he shoot when John told him that he was calling the cops? Yet he used no other usual modes of defense? Here in lies the explanation for the murder 2 charge IMO.

380. First, you’re biased and trying to make “facts” fit your agenda.

     Here’s my take:

     GZ spots a suspicious person in his crime riddled complex. He parks and calls the NON EMERGENCY police number, NOT 911. He spends the first two minutes observing and reporting. At about the two minute mark TM runs east and then south on the back sidewalk towards “the back entrance” and “his” house. GZ gets out of his truck and follows. Thirty seconds later the operator tells him, “we don’t need you to do that”. You can hear from the tape that he stops. He’s about at the T of the walkways. I’m guessing Martin ran south, then turned east between the buildings and lost GZ, “I don’t know where this kid is”. He asked the operator if the police would call him and he would tell them where he was. The operator says, “yeah, that’s ok, no problem”. He was never ordered to stop, it was never even suggested to him to go back to his truck. I think he’s near the T, that’s where personal possessions were found on the ground by police, waiting for the police he knew were on the way, hoping to catch a glimpse of TM. Meanwhile, TM has arrived at the front of his house, testimony from the girlfriend. TM doubles back and moves 70 yards, the distance as per TMs father, and confronts GZ, where the shooting will occur. TM initiates the conversation, as per the girlfriend. At this point nobody except GZ knows what happened. But…….GZ KNEW the police were on they way, and had been for almost about 7 minutes. Why would he be “stalking” TM, and, as some have claimed, with gun drawn? He’d been doing this for 3 years and this wasn’t the first time he’d been in this position. In fact, about a month earlier he reported a perp, but he got away before the police arrived. About a week later, the same person was arrested, along with two others, on B&E charges. He’d also been praised by the owners association and residents for his good work in the neighborhood watch. Witnesses testified GZ was the person they saw being beaten. The “expert” who claims the voice calling for help is TM, is not expert. Not in any way, shape or form. The F.B.I. says they can’t determine whose it is. TMs father said it wasn’t his son’s voice. TM was between 5″11′ (coroner’s report) and 6″3′ (according to mom) and 160 lbs. GZ was 5″7/5″8′ 185. TM was an athlete, GZ wasn’t. Read up on TM, he’s not even close to the good young child the media has portrayed. And GZs arrest for resisting arrest? It was during an undercover sting by the police at a bar. GZs friend got in an altercation with one of the plain clothed cops and GZ came to his aid. For that he was arrested but NOT convicted.

     TM had all the time in the world to get inside, as he lost GZ and made it to his house, but instead ended up 70 yards away, initiating contact. Can’t you just see this younger, taller, more athletic juvenile delinquent (read up on him) getting into GZ’s face? I can.

     • Note: I believe this commenter is from some recent spats on twitter.

       I can’t wait to break down the “Zimmerman had every right to chase Trayvon Martin around like a kidnapper/child molester/vigilante/mad man” defense early tomorrow morning when I rest up and start putting some time, energy, and effort back into the blog.

       Bottom line: Zimmerman stays in his car and/or returns to it when instructed, and Trayvon Martin’s murder doesn’t occur. I’ve said this from day 1. I’m pleased the prosecution is taking this slam dunk angle.

       Adds: The FBI has stated (keep in mind, with the technology they’ve used so far) that they can’t positively confirm who was screaming with 100% certainty.

       The FBI definitely hasn’t said whether or not they can eliminate individuals that it could have been screaming for help.

       The analyst for the Orlando Sentinel said the person screaming definitely wasn’t Zimmerman and I suspect the FBI will come to this same conclusion.

       • He had every right in that situation to follow a suspicious character who’d just taken off running. He didn’t chase him around. Listen to the tape. he stopped.

         Trayvon doesn’t get suspended for the third time this school year and he’s in Miami.

         Is the analysts’ named Tom Owen? Witnesses put TM on top of GZ and beating him.

         Why will nobody answer the question why TM, who made it to his house, was back at the spot he had just run from, 70 yards from his house?

         • I’ve listened to Zimmerman’s 911 (police department non emergency line — whatever) tape more than probably any other single human being. The call ends. 2ish minutes later, Trayvon is shot.

           It should have only taken Zimmerman 1ish minute to return to his parked vehicle after the call ended. Well, assuming he stopped stalking, harassing, and preying upon his unarmed neighbor when the wind interference from running died down.

           So, as instructed, why wasn’t Zimmerman sitting in his parked car waiting for police to show up seconds later? We’ll never know but (aggravated) stalking and harassment isn’t legal in the state of Florida. Nor is kidnapping, child molestation, murder, or any other possible crime circulating through Trayvon’s fearful teenage mind.

           Regarding Trayvon making it home…you continue to miss this version of my map, eh?

           

           You should try to make it through all these comments. At one point in the comment section, somebody tries to bring up Trayvon’s appearance on social media sites. This is a moot point. In my response to this comment, I mention wearing jeans with holes in them and plaid shirts in high school. Does this mean I was in a grunge band? No. Does it mean I used heroin like Kurt Cobain? No. Does it mean I was a teenager? Yes.

           I think you are suggesting that Trayvon shouldn’t have been with his father that weekend. Don’t be an idiot.

           • For someone who’s listened to the tape more than anyone else, Zimmerman never says “he’s AT the clubhouse”. Operator: “He’s near the clubhouse right now?” Zimmerman: “Yeah…now he’s coming towards me.”

             And there’s another reason to be suspicious; it’s dark and raining and a hooded stranger is hanging around the empty clubhouse in a complex that has had a lot of break-ins. I suppose you’d think nothing of it?

             The “clicking” sound is interesting. It’d be nice to find out what it ACTUALLY is, not speculation. And if he is chambering his gun, that proves nothing. When would you ready the gun; before need it or the moment you need it? Be prepared.

             • You’re wrong. Zimmerman definitely says Trayvon Martin is AT the clubhouse. It’s not in any transcript (for some reason). Listen to the call again. Want me to point out the exact second for you?

               [Update now that I’m on a PC]

               Listen to the :54-:56 mark of Zimmerman’s call.

               Zimmerman: “That’s the clubhouse. He’s AT the clubhouse.”
               Operator: “He’s near the clubhouse.”
               Zimmerman: “Now he’s coming towards me.”

       • Exactly! George Zimmerman wasn’t screaming for help. There are now at least 5 (plus a maybe) witnesses lined up to testify to that fact.

     • jejozi,

       What’s TM’s motivation for beating up some random guy for no apparent reason? What would make an unarmed person talking on the phone on the way home from the store just start a fight with someone they don’t know?

       I’m very curious what you think TM’s motivation would be.

       We know what GZ’s motivation would be for starting an altercation: He doesn’t want to let “these a**holes get away”.

       • Have you seen TMs social media pages? He fancied himself a tough guy. He made it to his house, according to his girlfriend, 70 yards away from the final confrontation site. How and why did he get back? According to the girlfriend, TM initiated the conversation, again, 70 yards from his house, where he’d just come from. Zimmerman had been doing this for three years and nothing remotely like this had happened before. He had been commended by the association and residents for the job he had been doing. What variable was different that night? Trayvon.

         • “These assholes, they always get away.” doesn’t sound like something an effective neighborhood watch captain would say.

           Also, don’t forget about the gated community resident who doesnt give Zimmerman such a glowing review of how he handled the situation that night…2:00 mark here:

           But, you’re right in at least one sense — It’s seeming more and more like Trayvon made it back to his porch. You missed this, eh?

           

           • How many maps of what you THINK happened are you going to make up as “proof” of your agenda? You’re just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. I, too, can make a map that “proves” what I think happened, but it isn’t proof of anything. It’s certainly not some big, damning revelation.

             Again, you’re obviously biased. Since you are, you’re assumptions, of which there are many, have no credibility.

             1: Zimmerman had every right to see where a suspicious character was running. It was dark and raining out, as soon as he saw he was being observed, Martin ran, that is suspicious behavior.

             2: The operator never ORDERED him to stop.

             3: Why did Zimmerman HAVE to go back to his truck? The operator never even SUGGESTED that. At MOST, the operator suggested he stop following.

             4: Zimmerman never REFUSED to meet the police at the mailboxes, he suggested an alternate plan, with which the operator had no problem.

             5; So he said “assholes”? If every cop who ever swore about a suspicious character is unfit for duty, we’d have no cops. At that point, that’s exactly what Martin was, a suspicious character, regardless that he may have been doing nothing wrong.

             6: Martin’s father said that the 911 recording wasn’t his son, fact. Until he realized it would be helpful if he said it was (hey, if everyone else on this site can make up reasons for people’s actions, so can I).

             7: Zimmerman had every right to have the gun.

             8: If Martin was so scared, why, after he lost Zimmerman and made it to his house, didn’t he go into the house and call the police?

             Zimmerman will be convicted of something, but I don’t think 2nd degree murder, if for no other reason than to stave off the promised violence that will occur if he is acquitted.

             Did you hear about the guy who, back in early May, signed up for T-mobile and was assigned Zimmerman’s old number? Seventy, 7-zero, threatening calls in 10 days. How many on this board, at some point, dialed that number?

             • I have only two maps. I also have two (nearly) full-time consulting jobs and limited time/energy to troll blog postings.

               Neither of the maps seen in the link below can be debunked (as of right now). Map 2 is admittedly the most likely version given DeeDee’s testimony.

               Two Maps of the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Chase

               The following will be fun…here we go!

               “1: Zimmerman had every right to see where a suspicious character was running. It was dark and raining out, as soon as he saw he was being observed, Martin ran, that is suspicious behavior.”

               You said Trayvon was a suspicious character — What’s suspicious about being a black teen?

               Running during a rainstorm is suspicious behavior? No. Running during a rainstorm while somebody has been eerily watching you from their vehicle is suspicious behavior? No.

               “2: The operator never ORDERED him to stop.”

               You’ll want to review Zimmerman’s 911 – or non emergency line…whatever – call again. Specifically the part where Zimmerman was told the police didn’t need him to follow Trayvon.

               “3: Why did Zimmerman HAVE to go back to his truck? The operator never even SUGGESTED that. At MOST, the operator suggested he stop following.”

               You’ll want to review Zimmerman’s call again. Specifically the part where the dispatcher makes it clear that he should meet the officers at his vehicle/near the mailboxes.

               “4: Zimmerman never REFUSED to meet the police at the mailboxes, he suggested an alternate plan, with which the operator had no problem.”

               Since Zimmerman (strangely) couldn’t effectively communicate where he was parked that night, it would make sense for officers to call for the vehicle’s location when they arrived, right?

               “5; So he said “assholes”? If every cop who ever swore about a suspicious character is unfit for duty, we’d have no cops. At that point, that’s exactly what Martin was, a suspicious character, regardless that he may have been doing nothing wrong.”

               Oops – Zimmerman wasn’t a cop. Given the “recent break-ins,” he was a horrible Neighborhood Watch captain too. Again, being a black teen and running during the rain while some creepy guy is watching you isn’t suspicious behavior.

               “6: Martin’s father said that the 911 recording wasn’t his son, fact. Until he realized it would be helpful if he said it was (hey, if everyone else on this site can make up reasons for people’s actions, so can I).”

               Is that interview recorded? And, did Tracy just learn of his son’s death when giving such a statement? Has your son ever been murdered? If so, were you in the best mindset right after finding out?

               As of right now, I’ll go with the 2 experts that absolutely confirmed it wasn’t Zimmerman crying for help. Who was crying for help then?

               “7: Zimmerman had every right to have the gun.”

               Not while serving Neighborhood Watch. Have you missed the links posted as comments in this blog posting?

               “8: If Martin was so scared, why, after he lost Zimmerman and made it to his house, didn’t he go into the house and call the police?”

               Trayvon’s body wasn’t found with a key on it. Was he locked out? Regardless, is it illegal to sit on your back porch and catch your breath after being chased by a creepy man? Have you seen the Scream movies? I probably wouldn’t go inside my house either in fear the perpetrator/murderer would follow me inside too.

               “Zimmerman will be convicted of something, but I don’t think 2nd degree murder, if for no other reason than to stave off the promised violence that will occur if he is acquitted.”

               We’ll see about that. I disagree. Well, unless eventual/possible Murder 1 and/or Hate Crime convictions are good enough for the prosecution/government.

               “Did you hear about the guy who, back in early May, signed up for T-mobile and was assigned Zimmerman’s old number? Seventy, 7-zero, threatening calls in 10 days. How many on this board, at some point, dialed that number?”

               Even if I was connected to Zimmerman, I’d say nothing other than wishing him “well” as he rots in jail for the rest of his life. I’m not sure what other commenters here would say to him.

             • I keep coming up against two big discrepancies.

               (1) The Retreat at Twin Lakes has a grand total of three streets: Retreat View Circle, Twin Trees Lane, and Long Oak Way. Why is it, exactly, that an experienced long-time community watch volunteer had to exit his vehicle to figure out what street he was on?

               (2) As Andrew Cohen of The Atlantic said, “You can’t ‘reasonably’ be trying to avoid serious injury or death, you can’t be doing something absolutely necessary to spare your own life, if you are at the same time chasing down the very person you claim to be deathly fearful of.”

               We know from earlier 911 calls (i.e. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68912622/News/Past-911-call-George-Zimmerman-reports-black-male-he-s-seen-before) that Zimmerman declined to get out of the car or follow ADULT black males. (Prior 911 call reports at http://www.scribd.com/charisse_horn_1/d/86593433-George-Zimmerman-911-Call-History)

               Zimmerman popped out of his truck to follow Trayvon, so comparing the two incidents, we can probably conclude that while he’d been afraid of the earlier “suspicious black guy” that he was NOT afraid of Trayvon.

             • I think it only gets worse for GZ from here. While the SP has to hand over what she has, to the defense, the FBI does not. I think the SP will have left the tracing of calls and recovery of text messages etc., to the FBI, who will release them later on. GZ is duplicitous and therefore cannot be trusted by anyone, not even his own friends. As evidenced by the problems he created for his own defense teams. Then again, by the various fictional stories he told to his family and friends, causing them to look like fools, as they contradicted each other.

               I can’t help but find it strange, that witness #6, first comes forward with exactly the kind of claim that GZ is making and that he will need to have confirmed. That he was being struck by blows while he was on the ground.

               Now consider, the evidence shows that TM’s hands never touched GZ’s bloody head at all. THEN, witness #6 changes his story to confirm that he did not see TM striking blows! So then, if he didn’t see blows being struck, how does he come to realize so early on, that GZ needs him to say something that he didn’t see? Why does he create stuff to favor GZ if he’s not biased for some reason?

               That makes it a possible question: Is he merely biased? Or is he somehow involved? Because, if he is involved in anyway, then he’s forced to make things up, he has no other choice! Even if his involvement was only to the extent of a prior offering of support for GZ, in the event that something bad should happen on his NW patrols. It has been suggested that GZ always carried his weapon when he went on NW patrols. That’s a no no, since he’s not supposed to patrol as a NW’er. NWer’s have no authorization to patrol!

       • @jejozi –

         “What variable was different that night? Trayvon.”

         According to Frank Taaffe, George Zimmerman’s friend, Zimmerman was frustrated and had had enough. Maybe that’s why the others got to live. George Zimmerman hadn’t reached his angry boiling point when the others walked through the neighborhood and Trayvon Martin was the unlucky one to suffer his wrath.

       • Zimmerman: “He ran”.

         To most people, this does indeed mean a person chose to flee and avoid confrontation.

         To racists and bigots, persons of color running means “he did something wrong”.

     • Jejozi, I don’t blame you for not having read all 1000+ comments on these 2 blogs. Nor am I going to quote it all at you, but about every second word you say is incorrect.

       “The operator says, “yeah, that’s ok, no problem”. He was never ordered to stop, it was never even suggested to him to go back to his truck. “..

       They were discussing where his truck was, and arranged a meeting at the mailboxes, when GZ suddenly says “no actually get them to call when they get here and I’ll tell them where I’m at”. So yes, it WAS suggested he go back, they wanted to meet him there, he cancelled out at the last moment with the “tell them to call me”.

       “..I think he’s near the T, that’s where personal possessions were found on the ground ‘” .

       Yes and other possessions were found 3 houses down near the shooting scene.

       “TM has arrived at the front of his house, testimony from the girlfriend.”

       ALSO testimony from the girlfriend “he’s behind me again” she says run, he says “no, I’ll just walk fast”.

       “TM initiates the conversation, as per the girlfriend”

       …. Initiates by saying “Why are you following me?” a totally ridiculous thing to say to someone you had just walked 70 yards up to talk to. Also on your version GZ is not following, just standing quietly at the T doing nothing. He didn’t ask “why were you following me earlier”.

       “GZ KNEW the police were on they way,…..” YES PRECISELY. “These azzholes always get away”…. you say yourself the last one was gone before the cops got there. He has a LOT of motive to keep TM in sight and on site for that one or two minutes longer, to make sure this one does NOT get away. We are NOT saying he’d chased him all over with his gun drawn. But it is not out of the question he WOULD draw it, to hold TM there at gunpoint if necessary.

       TM had no history of violence. So he smoked a bit of pot? big deal. That does not make him a delinquent. Several Presidents of the United States have smoked a bit of pot.

       GZ does have a history, two other incidents, too. He wasn’t charged, NOT because of mistaken identity or anything. He’s admitted to all three, just gave good excuses why he was justified. Same as this time, “explaining” why it was okay to shoot a kid dead.

       “TM had all the time in the world to get inside, as he lost GZ and made it to his house,”……….

       Again, as per the girlfriend, he FELT SAFE. So no hurry to get in the house. Finish the conversation first. But then, suddenly, oh nooooo here he is AGAIN.

       You see, you can’t pick and choose. Either you use DeeDee’s testimony or you don’t. You can’t cherry-pick it for the bits that suit you and ignore the rest.

       You can’t continue to rely on old witness statements that the witnesses have since changed their minds about (like who was on top or whose voice it was).

       You can’t fairly blow up TM’s indiscretions into “delinquency” while making excuses for GZ’s much worse history to the extent of leaving out 2/3 of it.

     • jejozi Says: “Meanwhile, TM has arrived at the front of his house, testimony from the girlfriend. ”

       Actually it was said that he was on the back porch of his house. If he did arrive there that would explain why GZ went south of the T. He would have saw him standing there. If GZ was not profiling, why wouldn’t he have simply ID himself as neighborhood watch, when asked after following the kid in the dark? I believe the girlfriend says that TM asked “What are you following me for?” as YOU said initiating the interaction. Apparently, he felt followed… yet you are telling me that this part is not true… Even the defense knows that they can’t take part of a testimony while sending the other parts back.

       ANd who gets out of the car to look at the back of houses for addresses? What was he doing south of the T? His story doesn’t add up time wise either. The dispatcher report is deceiving. There was at least 2 min before 911 calls started coming in. he stated while still in his truck that the kid was running towards the back gate. They both had to have gone south down Twin Trees and come North then back south.

     • Now all you have to do is account for the fact that TM never touched GZ with his hands! Please explain how this “thug” managed to wage a deadly, life threatening assault on GZ without ever using his hands. That’s some trick I’ll say, I don’t think the explanation will impress a jury.

       I read the NSA NW materials several times and even read several cites about it, before I realized that Patrols and Watchers are two, entirely different programs. Patrols are only supervised by police! While Watchers don’t do patrols of any sort!

       I’m also aware of a story circulating that ever since GZ purchased his guns, he has been going on patrols of the neighborhood armed as a matter of routine. Mr. Taaffe also says he has gone on patrols with GZ, so I wonder if he too was armed? The NSA states emphatically that this should never be the case, for several legal reasons. GZ knew this and refused to desist his illegal patrols, and even, it appears, got others to join him.

       Since TM never used his hands on GZ, it’s going to be a bit difficult to explain to a jury, exactly how GZ comes by these “terrible wounds”, that only require soap and water as treatment. You don’t have to convince me, GZ will have to convince a jury.

     • while i agree with NLME that zimmerman should have done what the dispatcher said and not followed…at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what the dispatcher said, zimmerman had NO reason to suspect this kid. NONE. Zimmerman had NO reason to get out of his car in the first place. NONE. He had NO reason to even call the police because walking down the fucking street is NOT suspicious behaviour in anyones world. I am sick of Zimmerman “supporters”. How does the killer of a kid who wasn’t doing anything wrong get supporters anyway. I am sick of the claim that Martin had plenty of time to get home and should have done so…WHY? if he wanted to reenact the dance scene to Thriller and knit a jumper for his step brother before going home he has every right to. What someone doesn’t have the right to do is follow him, harass him, SHOOT HIM. I can’t believe people are giving that creep money…and upped the ante when he got caught lying to a JUDGE. I can’t believe there are people who believe he was trying to protect and serve…WHO EXACTLY…not the innocent kid he followed and shot, not his friends and loved ones. I am sick of the ignorant hate directed at a dead child and his family. I’m sick of the pack mentality on any ‘pro’ zimmerman site…and it makes me want to wretch even writing “pro zimmerman”. I am fed up with all the excuses for a grown ass man playing cops n’ robbers and taking his anger issues out on a kid, i’m pissed that too many people find any and every lame ass excuse to defend his gutless actions. I hate that Trayvon Martin had to die to highlight the amount of sick fucks that are out there in the world who don’t give a shit about a beautiful kids life because it doesn’t fit their agenda. If someone followed any child where i come from…they are a PREDATOR. There doesn’t have to be contact or conflict. There is not one person on the planet that would feel safe if some sicko was prowling around and following them in the dark. Unfortunately zimmerman is the only one alive to tell his side of the story…if martin had killed him we would be praising him for protecting himself against a child predator but instead all we know is zimmermans side…and i aint buying it. The man is a LIAR, he killed Martin for NOTHING.

       • “If he wanted to reenact the dance scene to Thriller and knit a jumper for his step brother before going home he has every right to.”

         I agree (and laughed hard).

       • Thank you Aussie and San San B and Lonnie and Jo.
         The only rationalization I’ve been able to come up with that actually sounds plausible to me is that these folks also want “the right” to follow people around their neighborhoods in the dark with a gun.

       • haha, yes, Jo owes me a keyboard-cleaning for the “knitting” story. I really should stop reading with a drink in my hand.

         Actually though, when the pro-GZ people say TM should have gone straight home, they are ADMITTING that GZ was following him. Because they are saying “if he was so scared, he should have run home and gone inside”.

         But when we say “If GZ was so scared, he should have STAYED IN HIS CAR” they say no, he didn’t have to……..

         That is what is wrong with these people. They utterly fail to understand that in a democracy there is ONE RULE FOR EVERYBODY. You only get different rules for different people in a dictatorship, or where there are slaves, or where there is systemic DISCRIMINATION.

         • Zimmerman defenders – update to the blog posting coming soon – seem to rely on the argument that Trayvon should have gone home. While it wouldn’t be smart to lead a creepy man to your backdoor, these defenders definitely don’t want to see this map…

           

           • Now you need to put in colored “#’s” to indicate points in TM/DD calls, and put what they’re saying at what points, in a caption at the bottom of the map, since it would make the map too cluttered to try to include them like the 911 calls.

             Great work NLME!

         • All GZ did that night was: Pick some random person who happened along, and pursue them, argue with them, refuse to identify himself or explain who he was and what he was doing, then put his hands on that person and finally he shot them.

           There’s no evidence that Trayvon ever laid a hand on GZ, yet, GZ shot TM at close enough range to get blood spatter on himself.

           Then GZ makes up stories, all of which cannot be true, but all of which each tend to justify his actions, but in different ways.

           Anyone who approves of GZ’s actions, has to also approve of lying in court, lying about events to the police and the public, friends and family alike. They must also approve of stalkers/NW’er going on armed patrols, and finally the shooting of children for no apparent or good reason.

       • “Thank you Aussie and San San B and Lonnie and Jo.
         The only rationalization I’ve been able to come up with that actually sounds plausible to me is that these folks also want ‘the right’ to follow people around their neighborhoods in the dark with a gun.”

         Seconded!

         Two rules. One for scared people — the people scared of people of other races, ages or religions, mostly due to ignorance. One for the class of people the scared people perceive as beneath them, jealous of them and want take from them, etc.

       • @Aussie –

         “But when we say “If GZ was so scared, he should have STAYED IN HIS CAR” they say no, he didn’t have to……..”

         To me, that’s exactly how their institutional racism manifests. They really don’t seem to get it that Trayvon Martin had a right to do something as simple as walking around a neighborhood he had been welcomed to as a guest, or do nothing at all. At the same time, they “endow” special rights to George Zimmerman the renter to stalk and shoot other guests of the community. Weird!

       • Well said, jo!

     • @jejozi, If Zimmerman was acting as a Neighborhood Watch he claimed to be performing that night then he was not in his legal rights to follow anyone. Zimmerman was only a citizen and not a law enforcement officer thus no good reason whatsoever to leave his vehicle armed with a gun and follow someone that he imagined was committing a crime. This was a classic example of harassment and stalking by a stranger who caused emotional distress and fear into a minor. Given the circumstances and his admittal of following the “suspect” Zimmerman’s SYG claims are very week. Even the original lead investigator in this case didn’t believe ZImmerman could invoke Florida’s SYG law and should be charged with manslaughter.

       Here is what the National Sheriff’s Assocation has to say about this unregistered NW and incident in Sanford Florida:

       The purpose of the Neighborhood Watch Program is to enable citizens to act as the “eyes and ears” within their community and alert law enforcement immediately when they notice suspicious activity. However, the Neighborhood Watch Program does not in any way, shape, or form advocate citizens to take the law in their own hands. The success of the program has established Neighborhood Watch as the nation’s premier crime prevention and community mobilization program. Visible signs of the program are seen throughout America on street signs, window decals, community block parties and service projects.

       “The alleged action of a “self-appointed neighborhood watchman” last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program,” stated NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.). “NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program.”

       “The Neighborhood Watch Program fosters collaboration and cooperation with the community and local law enforcement by encouraging citizens to be aware of what is going on in their communities and contact law enforcement if they suspect something – NOT take the law in their own hands,” continued Executive Director Kennard. “The alleged participant ignored everything the Neighborhood Watch Program stands for and it resulted in a young man losing his life. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of Trayvon Martin during this terrible time.”

       http://www.sheriffs.org/content/nsa-statement-nw-tragedy-fl

       • All of which means that GZ was acting on and by his own rules. He was acting in a manner that was not controlled by anything he had been told to do as a NW, but instead ignoring it all.

         If ever there was a definition of a vigilante, GZ is it that night! He singled out a person and went after them, for no good reason he can cite! Although he tries to raise his own suspicions to the level of “probable cause”, it is only his own wild, preconceived notions that give rise to his erroneous assessment of the situation he faced!

         Some incredible flaw in his thinking, that prevents him from identifying himself at the various opportunities he had, is precisely the cause of the hostile environment he, mistakenly, perceives. So, it is this hostile environment he creates in his own mind, that allows him to imagine the dangers that he claims causes the need for the fatal shot.

         He never once entertains the idea “what if I am wrong”. He never believes that he could be wrong! So it is this unnatural, insane and unquestioned righteousness that comes to stand between an innocent child and his life!
         Put there by an irrational person — acting under color of an authority he only imagines he has, but without any acknowledgement of any responsibilities that go with that imagined authority — who insists he cannot be questioned, that prevents him from unwinding his own hostilities. Or even recognizing them.

         In short, a hostile person has shot an innocent child to death! There is no evidence of anything else having took place!

         • Not only did Zimmerman act as a vigilante in shooting an unarmed, innocent child, and not only did he show his lack of credibility in lying to the Judge, but Zimmerman went so far as to PROFIT off of the murder of an unarmed child. He used the donations to his defense funds to pay off all of his outstanding credit card debt.

           What sort of country is this where people can legally pay you for murdering an unarmed kid?

           • I think there’s a case to be made about GZ paying anyone with those funds, since according to Florida law, they were obtained illegally! (Surprise, surprise, eh?) He was not entitled, under the law, to solicit funds legally, thus, these funds become, if only technically, the proceeds of criminal activity, even if he isn’t convicted. Since he never filed the proper papers, to comply with the laws governing such matters. The fund, then may be recovered for return to the court. Held in escrow for the family aggrieved.

       • @Clif –

         The profit-for-murder is what pisses me off even further. It’s sick. The U.S. provides for public defenders. There was really no need that I can see for Zimmerman to raise money on the internet for a defense. His attorney originally was pro-bono.

         George Zimmerman’s fundraiser, imo, seems to have been for raising money to flee.

         -paid off all debts (so the PI’s working for his debtors wouldn’t track him down)

         -had two passports at the time the fundraising website was set up

         -gets attorneys (past and current)/judge/court to give legitimacy to his hiding out of status

381. Jejozi: I incorrectly stated that GZ says that this kid is heading towards the back gate before he got out of his truck. It was actually after he got out to pursue. You have to concede that he was following. You also have to concede that if he is to be giving credit for being NW, he had to have introduced himself as such to the victim. What we know now after the fact isn’t worth 2 nickels. It is all about what TM knew about GZ. He acted as a individual and not as NW.

     • I think Trayvon Martin thought he’d lost the guy and probably felt comfortable again after he “was right by his dad’s house” as told by DeeDee. Unfortunately, Zimmerman was still in pursuit and Trayvon Martin didn’t know he was still in danger until Zimmerman got close to him. By then it was too late.

382. Trayvon did have the right to stalk harrass and attack the night watchman. Trayvon wasn’t doing anything wrong. So he had a perfect right to stalk, harrass and jump Zimmerman. So what if he went home first? If he wanted to go back and attack Zimmerman he had a perfect right. Since Trayvon was in the right.

     • TM really didn’t stalk, harrass or attack GZ. TM protected himself against some person he didn’t know who was following him home in the dark for whatever reason.

       Let’s reverse the roles. I can guarantee that if GZ had been walking home in the dark, minding his own business, yards from his own home and some person GZ didn’t know started watching and following him, GZ would have pulled his gun out right then and there and shot the follower dead. And GZ would have thought this was perfectly ok to do. But according to GZ, it wasn’t ok for TM to protect himself from his follower (GZ).

       • That’s a great way of putting it!

     • You need to either learn to read, or get your head read.

       Seriously. There is ZERO evidence Trayvon did any stalking or following.

       There is ZERO evidence he did any harassing. Unless you consider asking “why are you following me?” to be harassment (while of course you think Zimmerman had every right to be asking TM questions??? one-way traffic eh?)

       There is ZERO evidence he attacked anybody. There was a fight but NO EVIDENCE who started it (except from the one who survived, but he’s not going to volunteer himself into a 20-year sentence by saying he started it, now is he?). There IS evidence he didn’t jump anyone — there IS evidence of two lots of arguments before anything physical.

       Trayvon was in the right because he was just going home from the store in a neigbourhood he was legally staying in. So nobody should have followed him, got angry with him, chased him or demanded to know what he was doing there, AFTER terrifying him by following him all over the place.

       • Zimmerman had every right to know what he was doing in the gated complex. Martin wasn’t an actual resident of the complex, he’d been there less than a week, therefore, he was a stranger. How can you not think this was a suspicious situation? It’s dark, it’s raining, this hooded person is hanging around the empty clubhouse, there’s been a lot of crime in the complex, he starts to run as soon as he’s observed. You wouldn’t be suspicious in that situation?

         Does the ring hurt your nose when being led around by the media?

         • You said Zimmerman had every right to know what Trayvon Martin was doing in the gated complex.

           Not really but Zimmerman could have – you know – asked Trayvon what was up. Zimmerman had several chances to do this. One of them being when Trayvon walked by his vehicle at the 1:30ish mark of the 911 call.

           Put yourself in Trayvon’s shoes for a minute. I know, I know — that’s going to be tough for you. But, now that you’re in the unarmed teen’s shoes walking home with some snacks, did Zimmerman have the right to know why Trayvon was in the gated complex? Or, did Zimmerman have the right to molest Trayvon? How about kidnap him? How about – as it turns out – murder him?

           You think the media is covering this shooting in favor of Trayvon?!? Are you kidding? Until I showed my mom Zimmerman’s medical records indicating only a LIKELY broken nose, no concussion, and a head injury that required no bandaid plus soapy water as treatment, she thought Trayvon actually beat Zimmerman’s ass and the vigilante had the right to fire a (warning) shot.

           Talk about a skewed view of the case but she only watches the local news, nightly news, isn’t on internet news sites much, and never visits blogs.

           If we consider what’s currently known, I’m confident the jury will figure it out and convict Zimmerman without needing input from the media.

           • GZ had no right to know anything about what anyone was doing inside that gated community! NW does not give him any right to know anything about anyone. All it does is give him the responsibility to report anything suspicious to the police! Something any citizen has the right to do, even without the appointment, except that as NW, the police know why he’s making so many calls, and believe that he’s been trained to spot suspicious activity.

             GZ has no right to “Patrol” the neighborhood, therefore no right to approach anyone, any more than an ordinary citizen would have. But that right to approach ends, when GZ assumes his NW notification of a suspicious person role. By making such a report, he is then forbidden by the rules he has been given, from following the person he just reported!

       • Wow, I assume jejozi is being lead around by a Prince Albert ring. That is one hell of an ignorant comment.

         A) There was not a lot of crime in the area. Just because Zimmerman says this in the 911 call does not make it true. This neighborhood has both below average property and violent crime.

         B) “neighborhood watch” is not actually a government position. This person is just a regular citizen that has volunteered to take on more responsibility, but is given no more authority than a common citizen. This being said, no regular citizen has any right to know what another regular citizen is doing on public land. I do not have a right to know where my neighbor is walking when they go down the street, nor any of my neighbor’s friends.
         Please jejozi, tell us where you live. We’ll all come around and just follow you and constantly ask you what you’re doing and where you’re going. If you refuse to answer, we’ll inform you that you told us that we have a right to know, and we’ll kick your ass if you still refuse to answer…. because after all…. we have a right to know!

         C) Why is it suspicious to wear a hoody in the rain? Wouldn’t it be far more suspicious to be wearing a t-shirt in the rain? Where I come from, people put on hats, hoodies, or use an umbrella when it rains. It protects them from the water.

       • “Zimmerman had every right to know what he was doing in the gated complex. Martin wasn’t an actual resident of the complex, he’d been there less than a week, therefore, he was a stranger. How can you not think this was a suspicious situation? It’s dark, it’s raining, this hooded person is hanging around the empty clubhouse, there’s been a lot of crime in the complex, he starts to run as soon as he’s observed. You wouldn’t be suspicious in that situation?”

         How were these rights conferred to George Zimmerman? He didn’t own a home within the community. Please be specific about how George Zimmerman obtained these rights to follow other residents.

         When did the crimes begin to escalate within the gated community (if escalation of crime at RVTL is even true)? Was it before or after George Zimmerman began renting there?

     • What? I think that I missed your point. One of the first thing that one has to do when a crime is committed is create a motive. Since TM ran initially, it is hard to reconcile that he would just jump GZ. Another way to look at it is that TM ran to another area to avoid confrontation and GZ was the one to follow him into the new area, which would have been beyond the truck. None of this seems to support that TM wished to have this confrontation. However, if you look from GZ point of view. 1) He got out the truck and followed TM to another area. 2) He said “These a-holes always get away.” and 3) He refused an opportunity to meet the police at the mailboxes.

       There is no other evidence that he did not want to confront Martin, except his none objective statements after the fact.

       • Excellent, excellent comment. Leading up until the scuffle and assuming Zimmerman is telling the truth about how the confrontation began (likelihood of this = 0.01%), there is one person (Zimmerman) recorded as unlawfully pursuing somebody and one person (Trayvon) fleeing somebody. Unfortunately, the person fleeing is now dead.

       • NLME, I think they call it applying a null hypothesis. I bet the FBI has profiled both GZ and TM. My guess is that they have a pretty good idea of what GZ is capable of.

       • Let’s look at from Zimmerman’s point of view: It’s dark, it’s raining, he spots someone hanging around the closed and darkened clubhouse, he knows how much crime has been committed in the complex, as soon as he was spotted, Martin runs. If that’s not suspicious character I don’t know what is.

         Martin had jump on Zimmerman, Martin was an athlete, Zimmerman was overweight, Martin had all the time in the world to get to where he was staying, instead, he ended up 70 yards from “safety”.

         Zimmerman had every right to get out of his truck. What does saying “asshole” have to do with anything? He didn’t “refuse” to meet at the mailboxes. He suggested an alternate plan, with which the operator had “no problem”.

         Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn’t got out of the truck. Martin would be alive if he hadn’t got his third suspension of the school year.

         What this sounds like is a situation that got out of control, nothing more.

         • “Let’s look at from Zimmerman’s point of view.”

           I’m not paranoid enough.

           “As soon as he was spotted, Martin runs.”

           That’s factually and grossly incorrect. I really think you need to listen to Zimmerman’s non emergency (aka 911) call again because you keep messing it up.

           “If that’s not suspicious character I don’t know what is.”

           An unarmed person that was doing nothing wrong running away from a creepy guy watching him obsessively during a rain storm is not suspicious. At all.

           “Martin had all the time in the world to get to where he was staying, instead, he ended up 70 yards from “safety”.”

           You keep missing this 2nd (and my last) map, eh?

           

           “Zimmerman had every right to get out of his truck.”

           He didn’t have the right to stalk, harass, and prey upon his unarmed neighbor returning home with some snacks.

           “What does saying “asshole” have to do with anything?”

           I think – but could be wrong – that you brought up the asshole part. Regardless, Zimmerman should definitely be concerned that he said, “These assholes, they always get away.” and then Trayvon didn’t get away. That sounds like some premeditation and 1st degree murder to me.

           “He didn’t “refuse” to meet at the mailboxes. He suggested an alternate plan, with which the operator had “no problem”.”

           Not true — the operator clearly told Zimmerman the police didn’t need him following his unarmed neighbor.

           “Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn’t got out of the truck. Martin would be alive if he hadn’t got his third suspension of the school year.”

           Part 1 is true. Part 2 has nothing to do with Trayvon’s “right” to be with his father.

           “What this sounds like is a situation that got out of control, nothing more.”

           When you carry and ultimately use a gun, you’re responsible for being in control of the situation. I think this is taught in “concealed weapons 101 class.”

           • Correction — I brought up the assholes part. But, for some reason, you’re not understanding what I was saying.

             An effective — so, somebody that does their (voluntarily) job well — Neighborhood Watch captain would never say, “These assholes, they always get away.”

             Get it? My point: Given all the supposed recent break-ins, Zimmerman apparently wasn’t doing his voluntarily job well.

       • Hell yeah NLME. Completely right on. I’m sure something similar to this has been added before, but once more for good measure:

         “In order to convict a defendant in Florida of Second-degree murder, the State of Florida must prove the following three elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
         The victim is dead;
         The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;
         There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

         Understanding a second degree murder can be more confusing than the more serious first degree murder. The “criminal act” reference in the statute must be a single event or series of related actions arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or purpose of committing the murder or creating the dangerous condition that led to the death. Although second-degree murder can carry a potential incarceration of up to life in prison, the death penalty cannot be imposed on a person found guilty of second-degree murder.

         Whether a Defendant’s actions could have been reasonably foreseen as endangering a human life to the point of warranting a prosecution is a question for the jury and where a skilled defense lawyer can be most helpful. Examples may include the negligent supervision of a child or of the elderly by an adult, or other reckless behavior that led to the death of another person.”
         (From a Florida defense lawyer’s web page)

         “Accident” nor “out of control” excuse killing someone under Florida’s law. If you exhibited reckless behavior (i.e. following and confronting a child after 911 dispatcher told you not to and to let the police handle it), and this directly led to the death of another person (because you shot them in the chest at point blank range with the intent of killing them), then you are guilty of 2nd degree murder under Florida law.

         Zimmerman’s only possible defense is self-defense… not an accident or a situation getting out of control. Self-defense only works if he can convince the jury that he was no longer following Trayvon, that Trayvon started the fight, and that he had a reasonable fear for his life.

         This is exactly why Zimmerman has claimed he was returning to his truck, that he was jumped from behind, and that he was beat to within an inch of his life. He has to convince the jury that all three of those items were true in order to escape conviction for second degree murder. I think convincing them that the first two statements are true would probably knock him down to manslaughter, but I’m not a lawyer and definitely haven’t passed Florida’s bar exam, so I can’t be sure.

       • “Let’s look at from Zimmerman’s point of view: It’s dark, it’s raining, he spots someone hanging around the closed and darkened clubhouse, he knows how much crime has been committed in the complex, as soon as he was spotted, Martin runs. If that’s not suspicious character I don’t know what is.”

         Its dark and raining and he was suppose to be on his way to target…there are 2 exits to the community, none of them require driving up the middle street. Why was he even there? What did martin do that was suspicious…nothing. What did george do that was suspicious…he sat in his car watching, following. If he had just driven past like a normal person heading to target he would have no reason to suspect anything. No crime was being committed. It is not illegal to be out in the evening or when it rains. Martin ran a long time after he noticed george watching him, he knew he was being watched, you would run too. Your definition of a suspicious character means we should all never go out after dark, or in the rain, or walk past public buildings when they are closed or have the lights off.

         “Martin had jump on Zimmerman, Martin was an athlete, Zimmerman was overweight, Martin had all the time in the world to get to where he was staying, instead, he ended up 70 yards from “safety”.”

         Martin didn’t have to do anything, who do you think you are to tell anyone where they should be or what they should be doing. In what world is it argued that a child deserved to get shot because when a creep started chasing them they didn’t run straight home. In everyone else’s world it is the hunter that is considered suspicious, not the hunted. I see you are not demanding that George should have just gone to damn Target, instead ending up MILES from the place he was supposed to be. And why do you highlight “safety”, are you admitting that being out in his back yard with Zimmerman prowling was not “safe” for him….well you got that right Sherlock.

         “Zimmerman had every right to get out of his truck. What does saying “asshole” have to do with anything? He didn’t “refuse” to meet at the mailboxes. He suggested an alternate plan, with which the operator had “no problem”.”
         And Trayvon had every right to punch in the face for being a predator. “asshole “ is not the issue as you know I’m sure, but the fact that they always get away..who always gets away George? Unarmed teenagers not committing any crimes? People who walk in the rain? Visitors to the community? Who exactly……..he profiled trayvon and he was wrong. He knew he wasn’t going to be at the mailboxes or more significantly HIS CAR. They obviously thought his car was parked at the mailboxes but it was further down the street where he positioned himself like a pervert to watch.

         “Martin would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn’t got out of the truck. Martin would be alive if he hadn’t got his third suspension of the school year.”

         Martin SHOULD still be alive no matter what. If three suspensions meant he deserved to be killed then I guess schools should just introduce the death penalty. 3 school suspensions mean shit, what about 3 arrests for GEORGE…for violence. And lets not pretend that George was a perfect teenager, I’m sure he was not, but he was still able to roam the earth to assault women and police and kill people without anyone stalking him and shooting. Trayvons indiscretions were when he was a teenager, Georges were from when he was an adult. Martin had every right to be where he was, more so than Zimmerman. Martin walked to the shop and walked home, Zimmerman set off for “target” and ended up killing someone for acting far less suspicious than he was acting himself, and nowhere near target OR home.

         “What this sounds like is a situation that got out of control, nothing more.”

         It’s a lot more….the situation should not have happened…it is not ok to assume someone might perhaps maybe possibly do something and that you have the right to follow scare harass stalk that person in anticipation that a crime may get committed. Even in the rain. Even if you haven’t personally seen that person before. Even if you are neighbourhood watch. Even if there have been burglaries. It’s NOT ok. I see many people walk in all sorts of weather past my house…I haven’t accosted any of them. There are many kids out at night, usually groups, sometimes on their own and I have not shot a one of them. My car got broken into 3 times in 3 weeks, but when someone walked passed my house in the rain and at night I did not suspect them, it’s a public street, people have the right to walk on it..even if they have been to the 7/11 or even if they are stoned….hell even if they are on their way to commit a crime because how the fuck would I know what their intentions are or why they are walking….make all the excuses you want for George, anyone who can justify his actions is a lost cause.

     • @Panorain –

       If TM had the right to do so, he apparently didn’t make use of that right.

       George Zimmerman on police recorded call: “He ran”

383. Has the video of the clubhouse been released? If so, what does it show? I have heard that it doesn’t really show anything of substance. What would be the point of the clubhouse house video then?

     • What’s released so far for the clubhouse is mostly interior shots with some exterior windows shown but nothing of substance is visible.

       Search this blog posting for “Paint Dry” and you’ll see the links posted by CommonSenseForChange. Sorry I can’t be more helpful — I’m on a mobile device. I’ll post the comment with the videos when I get in front of a PC again.

     • It doesn’t show ANYTHING. Just stationary unchanging shots of the interior. Either the outside is not watched, or they got the wrong video from the wrong cameras.

384. Talking of CCW 101 –

     from http://myweaponspermit.com/florida-concealed-weapons-permit-law-highlights/

     “776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—

     The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

     (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
     (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

     (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or………….

     NOTE
     2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

     which ay reasonable person would say GZ did do, with the following-about and hostility (as per DeeDee)

     NOTE
     “………..and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force …….”

     which GZ never tried at all; zero defensive wounds on him and no marks of any on TM.

     also
     “790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—

     If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.”

     NOTE
     “….exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner,…”

     so, how was that, GZ? when exactly did TM notice that gun?

     • ooo, ooo, let me answer that (hand up).
       ================================================
       “NOTE
       “….exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner,…”

       so, how was that, GZ? when exactly did TM notice that gun?”
       ================================================

       First justification was, “When I reached for my phone, TM saw my gun and the struggle for it began.”

       Second justification was: “While I was on the ground, with TM straddling me and beating my head against the concrete, I had forgotten I had the weapon, But, while struggling to edge myself away from the concrete onto the grass, my weapon was exposed and that started TM struggling with me for control of it.”

       On a site that talks about GZ’s purchase of two guns, one for his wife and one for himself, to fend off a dog who bothers them. It notes that GZ always carried his weapon on NW Patrols! My guess is that the SP has obtained and confirmed this from witnesses, if it is true. If it is true, it will be incredibly difficult for GZ’s defense to explain to a jury, how he could have forgotten he had a weapon he always carried with him.

       It will also be incredibly difficult to reconcile this series of events:

       1. TM approaches him from behind.
       2. GZ has to turn to get struck in the nose!
       3. GZ has to be “jumped from behind”.
       4. GZ gives what response to the question “what are you following me for?”
       5. Does TM strike him in the nose, before or after GZ turns around?
       6. Does TM ask his question before or after GZ turns around?
       7. If TM ask the question after GZ turns around, then why does GZ turn around?
       8. If TM ask the question after GZ turns around, why does GZ reach for his phone, instead of his, already exposed gun?
       9. If TM punches GZ in the nose, knocking him to the ground, does this happen before or after GZ refuses to answer the question?
       10. If TM punched GZ hard enough to break his nose and knock him down, where did the bruising on TM’s hands go?
       11. If TM was bashing GZ’s head on the ground, then trying to cover GZ’s mouth and bleeding nose with both hands, why is there no blood or dna or even fibers, or trace of any kind from GZ on TM’s hands?

       12. Why are there two different versions of how the confrontation began?
       13. Why is there no evidence that confirms either version of the fight?

       Finally, the question that will be on every jurors mind: Exactly what was GZ thinking about or doing, that prevented him from identifying himself, before anything physical happened?

     • I was thinking the exact same thing about the “exhausting every reasonable means”! The only reason that I can think that a person wouldn’t fight back with any other means is that their hands are already in use. Since he needs a free hand to shoot, he must have already had the gun out in his dominant hand in the first few minutes after this fight started. This would explain why he could use neither hand. The explanation that he was so out of it he couldn’t fight back doesn’t fly. With the straightness of the wound entry it is likely that used two hands to fire the weapon. Of course they would know this by now.

385. jejozi Says:”Let’s look at from Zimmerman’s point of view: It’s dark, it’s raining, he spots someone hanging around the closed and darkened clubhouse, he knows how much crime has been committed in the complex, as soon as he was spotted, Martin runs. If that’s not suspicious character I don’t know what is.”

     I actually try to look at it from Zimmerman’s point of view. Every time, I come up with inconsistencies. Here is one problem: “I was jumped form behind.” Then how did he get knocked out from the front first?

     Here is another: “I had no other choice but to shoot.” He has no defensive wounds and he never tried using his hands or feet to kick and fight back. It also means he never felt threatened!

     I liked the next thing the best from the exceptions to SYG:
     a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or………….

     How can Zimmerman say that he has exhausted all reasonable means to escape such danger, when he never used his hands, fist or nails? There were so many options available to ZImmerman. He could have kneed this kid in the groin. The reason he never fought back is obvious to anyone who understands the autonomic nervous system. He never fought back because he had the upper hand with the gun the entire time.

     • San San B,

       You hit ’em all dead on the nail! I couldn’t agree more.

       T. G.

     • All that means is that Martin came at him from behind. As he’s passing in front of Zimmerman, Martin’s swinging a roundhouse.

       Could you show me where you got the Florida SYG exceptions? It’s my understanding that one of the things about SYG is that you DON”T need to try to escape, you can Stand Your Ground. We had this type of law come before our legislature a couple of months ago and that was one of the big items under discussion. It sounds as if you’re still working under the old self defense statutes where you couldn’t use deadly force without first using every reasonable means within his or her power to avoid the danger, including retreat. Regardless, you don’t need to fight back in any other way if you reasonably believes your life is in danger. How could he have not felt in danger, his nose was broken and he was on his back with Martin over him.

       2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[22]

       776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

       (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
       (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

       Witnesses say they saw one man on top of the other. The police noted that Zimmerman’s back was wet and covered with grass. Whom do you think was on the bottom?

       • “How could he have not felt in danger, his nose was broken and he was on his back with Martin over him.”

         Oops! Zimmerman’s nose was only LIKELY broken and you’ve got witnesses that put him on top of Trayvon.

         • “Only likely broken”, and only as stated by a private doctor who ran no tests but merely surmised. Hence the equivocal statement “likely”. There is absolutely no value to be obtained from this doctors statement, other than his prescription of “soap and water”, since that shows how serious were the wounds he believed he was treating. No tests or x-rays were needed for that assessment, his professional medical opinion is acceptable proof.

           Remember, at the time the Doctor was examining GZ, he probably did not know what had happened. No reason for GZ to tell him, since he wasn’t going to be charged at that time.

       • FWIW: The nose broken thing is looking more like the gun’s kick to me. Trayvon had no rings on, there was no Zimmerman DNA under Trayvon’s nails… so how did Zimmerman get that scratch on his nose?

         From the reviews on the Kel Tec PF-9 Zimmerman had it sounds like it has a lot of kick:
         “The PF-9 is not very accurate, it kicks like a mule ”
         “I think that this gun has a lot of kick, but I hit dead on every shot.”

         And from a photo of a girl who had a pistol’s kick lightly break her nose, it looks similar to Zimmerman’s — swollen at the bridge, and she got scratched on the right side of the bridge from having the gun on the right side:
         http://www.squeakywheelseeksgrease.com/blog/?p=2338

         The other option is that it was the can of tea that made the scratch. But due to the wimpy bag it was in, using that would appear to be a defensive move of swinging whatever is in one’s hands, and not a strategic method of attack. And it would seem too slow to get a good nose-break with a tea can, since one would defend their face against a swung object rather quickly, and probably take that hit elsewhere.

         • Good find.

         • I have not fired this model gun, but with other automatics I HAVE had searing hot brass burn me. My partner right now has a pair of burns at the collarbone that look like vampire fang marks from I think one hot brass casing ejected that bounced.

           Unless modified for a bigger clip, the Kel-Tec PF9 has a really short butt, which means less gun to have a solid grip on for most men. Even in a woman’s hand it’s uncomfortably short (http://www.homedefenseweapons.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Kel-Tec-PF9-Review.jpg). If you haven’t got a good grip, recoil can be hell, and I’ll buy GZ’s facial injuries as recoil from a gun held one-handed and fired movie-style rather than in a solid two-handed grip.

           • Interesting. Would the recoil be strong enough to LIKELY break Zimmerman’s nose and send his head back hard enough for those minor abrasions? So, the answer to the likely broken nose part is obvious — a gun’s recoil can do this — but, how about the abrasions?

       • Jejozi, sorry but you’re not making any sense.
         “All that means is that Martin came at him from behind. As he’s passing in front of Zimmerman, Martin’s swinging a roundhouse. ”
         Is he coming from behind? or is he passing in front? can’t be both at the same time.

         “Could you show me where you got the Florida SYG exceptions?” I clearly provided a LINK and quoted the exact clause — that relating to force BY AN AGGRESSOR.

         In simple English it says that if someone provoked the use of force against themselves, and then they start to fear for their lives, they must exhaust every other means of escaping the danger. In other words, if YOU started the fight you are back to old simple self-defence. SYG only applies to the one who didn’t start it.

         “Starting it” does not mean who threw the first punch. Starting it is “assaulting” someone, for which threats or threatening behaviour are enough. Actually touching them is “battery” but they don’t have to wait for that before being entitled to defend themselves.

         “Witnesses say they saw one man on top of the other. The police noted that Zimmerman’s back was wet and covered with grass. Whom do you think was on the bottom?”

         WHEN?
         No witness saw how it started. Afterwards they could have been rolling around changing positions every 10 seconds, for all we know. Who saw who on top at any given moment proves nothing.

         Besides, being on TOP is not necessarily being the attacker. If someone has a gun or a knife in their hand, pinning them down might be a good defensive move, don’t you think?

         You might even do the same for someone holding a bottle of pills they’re about to commit suicide with. Or a cigarette lighter when there’s a strong gas leak in the room.

       • @NLME re:abrasions – someone said something in passing that struck me as interesting. Isn’t there a tree in the crime scene. Could a branch could have caused the abrasions on the top of the head?

386. i just googled teen followed by man and came up with so many instances where a teenager was followed, sometimes the guy tried to talk to them, and in every instance the guy following was being sought by police or charged with harrassment. example http://www.bulletnewsniagara.ca/2012/04/20/man-charged-with-harrassment-after-teen-girls-followed-while-walking-home-from-school/ this guy followed in his car during the day. What zimmerman did was far worse than any of these cases but in every incidence the teens are scared and the behaviour of the adult is considered inappropriate. Martin had no idea what the creep following him wanted just like all these other teens but he was followed by car, and on foot, in the dark, up to his back door, if he didn’t have a right to fight then no one does.

     • Very cool search idea! I may run a few queries later this week and post the results in the update section.

387. Shellie Zimmerman arrested today on one count of perjury, relased on 1000. bond. Entered and exited same jail as husband.

     • Thank you! I’ve added this to the Update section.

       I haven’t read a link or watched a clip yet — Shellie and George Zimmerman were completely separated with no forms of possible communication during her arrest, correct? As in, even the officers that processed Shellie Zimmerman had absolutely no contact with George before or after the arrest, correct?

       I’m not sure the laws surrounding suspect/inmate communications but given Shellie and George’s recent lies plus the history of the Sanford PD, I’d hope the above is true.

     • You beat me to it!

       Capias found here: http://www.clickorlando.com/blob/view/-/14790490/data/1/-/x6n0xuz/-/Shellie-capias.pdf

       • @CommonSense Thanks for the link! By the way her mug shot looks like her husband.

       • @NLME,She was in and out so quick I don’t believe she had any contact. I also noticed that haven’t even mentioned the arrest on the nightly news here in Texas. On the internet yes, but not mainstream media.

         • ABC World News and CBS Evening News had a small story.

           I’m not sure about NBC Nightly News. I’ll guess not many local stations outside of Florida will carry Shellie Zimmerman’s arrest story.

           Nothing was really said of her LYING UNDER OATH other than that she was arrested. I assume if Tracy, Sabrina, or Dee Dee told even the smallest of lies under oath and were arrested for it, the stories would be plastered “everywhere.”

       • i was thinking the same thing Loree….george really does love himself…literally, she looks just like him.

388. NLME,

     I’ve been following your blog for some time. The input from you and other posters has been amazing. I love the updates regarding the maps and the ongoing investigative details of the crime scene, and also the tremendous insight from other contributors. Pretty impressive.

     I’d like to think that there is some evidence out there (unbeknown to us) that will confirm GZ’s guilt, but I think THAT evidence lies in the mind of the resting body known as TM. We may never know.

     I’ll continue lurking now….

     • I really appreciate the comment – thank you! Keep coming back – there should be a lot more interesting/coordinated stuff coming soon. 🙂

389. NLME has this been posted before, its the order revoking bond….

     Click to access order%20revoking%20bond.pdf

     “the evidence against him is strong”…!!!!!!!

     “he does not properly respect the law or the integrity of the judicial system”…

     in-ter-est-ing

     • Hardly a wonder then, that he didn’t follow the NW rules he was given!
       By breaking those same rules, as evidenced by TM’s expressed awareness that GZ was following him early on, GZ had to realize that he was creating a hostile environment for TM.

       TM was a person about whom GZ knew nothing at all, except that he was hostile towards him. It is not the place or intention that a NW’er create a hostile environment in the community, nor present himself as a hostile to others. Thus, when TM approached his car, he should have sought to end these hostilities, by announcing his identity. Since TM was not the criminal GZ thought he was, the reasons for any hostilities would have been satisfactorily dispelled.

       We can only conclude that GZ did not want to end the state of hostilities!
       We can conclude that he did not have any fear of the possible outcome of such a state of affairs, because he had a firearm in his possession. A firearm that he often carries when going about his daily routine. Since he claims to have been doing just that — going about his daily routine, and not on NW patrol — he had his gun with him, as he had obtained a permit to allow him to do this. Thus, as an armed person, GZ had little reason to fear that he was creating a hostile situation, and little to no reason to attempt to abate it.

       The facts of this case present that he had intended to take some affirmative action(s) to ensure that “this one does not get away”, and in that light it appears that he did so. Which stands as good evidence that he actually welcomed these hostilities he was so mindlessly creating.

       The results are clear and were as predictable as they are tragic, yet GZ wishes to take no responsibility for them. He does, however, believe that he has a right to profit by them, such that the court should not be able to take those profits away. To that end, he conceals from the court, the fact that these profits are available to him. He also realizes that he needs a passport to have the option of placing himself beyond the courts reach, should the court appear to be concluding that he should be held to account for these events.

390. So, which of your little maps is going to be your final “official” version of what happened? I know you fancy yourself a Baker Street Irregular, but you’re nothing but a, dare I say, wannabe. And we all know that wannabes aren’t good enough to “be”. I wanted to be the starting shortstop and hit third for the Cubs, and I was pretty good and still play, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to hit major league pitching.

     As it stands now, unless there’s something in the SYG law that prohibits following someone, Zimmerman most likely walks. Even if there is, you have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was following Martin. All you need is one person on the jury to believe Zimmerman’s story. And there are a lot out there that do.

     This is my last post. Having to search out the replies to a post is a pain. And how come your posts don’t have a reply button? Ta.

     • “So, which of your little maps is going to be your final “official” version of what happened?”

       I’m not sure which map will end up panning out. As of right now, version 2 of 2 makes the most sense given DeeDee’s account of the events.

       “I know you fancy yourself a Baker Street Irregular, but you’re nothing but a, dare I say, wannabe. And we all know that wannabes aren’t good enough to “be”. I wanted to be the starting shortstop and hit third for the Cubs, and I was pretty good and still play, but that doesn’t mean I’m ready to hit major league pitching.”

       I hope you’re better at baseball than you are at “insults.”

       “As it stands now, unless there’s something in the SYG law that prohibits following someone, Zimmerman most likely walks. Even if there is, you have to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he was following Martin. All you need is one person on the jury to believe Zimmerman’s story. And there are a lot out there that do.”

       You can’t be doing something unlawful like (aggravated) stalking, harassing, and preying upon your unarmed neighbor and expect Stand Your Ground to protect you.

       “This is my last post. Having to search out the replies to a post is a pain. And how come your posts don’t have a reply button? Ta.”

       You’ll need to ask WordPress. I think there’s a limit to the number of replies unless one has access to the WordPress Admin panel (me) or via the comment reply notification link (you) that they send commenters.

       Thank you for checking out the blog and leaving comments. I feel sad this is your last post though — you’re giving me so much material. Adios!

     • its pretty obvious the maps are works in progress and have been incredibly helpful to piece together what went on that night since we can’t rely on georges word, being that he’s a liar and all (but don’t take my word for it, ask the judge)

       as far as wannabes are concerned, you might want to change the objection of your affection if you don’t like them, since “quick-draw” zimmerman is a wannabe cop and wannabe gangsta…watup datniggytb!!!! *insert obscure hand signal here*

       You are right, it will only take one idiot to set Quick-draw free. Just one idiot who loves his/her gun more than human life, or the right to walk down the street…someone who believes in the right to bare arms but not the right to be a teenager walking home….of course these same people are the first to aim and shoot if someone dared follow them, or question them, but this is just a dead black kid so who cares.

       Just a tip, write down the comment number if you want to check out who has served your ass to you on a platter…then you can just scroll…easy as if you are only interested in replies to your attempts at baiting….its a lot harder for the rest of us who like to read what everyone has to say as well.

       Sorry its your last post under this name but i’m sure it wont be hard to spot your new alias.

391. @NLME , Totally agree with your comment if the perjury was on the other side it would of been plastered over the world! @ Jo its very creepy how they have that same look! Also I have noted and read the judge’s revoke order on the same line you posted. I also took in the fact that he also cited his previous run ins with law. At the first hearing the judge was very laxed about his previous run ins like it’s no big deal. But this time he actually took the time to note it in his revoke order. GZ was given a pass on the undercover cop thing. GZ was given a pass on Feb 26. Gz was given a pass on The first bond hearing. Will this judge stop giving out passes to GZ and hold him until trial? It will be very interesting on how GZ does on his second bond hearing on June 29 @ 9:30. It will be televised thru “IN Session”.

     • Creepy indeed! They say after you’ve been together long enough, you start to look alike,

       I also agree that had perjury been charged on the Trayvon side, we’d have no way to avoid the bombardment of Fox and affiliates dissemination of . Maybe Fox has its own troubles today and over the past few months, though. I think I did see a Murdoch legal troubles headline today…

     • Looks to me like O’Mara’s only plea left will be that the threats of flight have been removed, since the passport has been turned in and the money is now under his control. Add that to the notoriety of GZ and, he’ll plead that the risk of flight is now extremely low. On the other hand, there’s still the matter of “respect for the law” that GZ has shown none of. I don’t think the judge will like the law being disrespected very much at all, so on that basis I think GZ has driven the final nail in his own coffin on the bail matter. Judges don’t often get the opportunity to wax emotional on any subject, but clearly the law provides the judge with just that opportunity, where “respect for the law” is a concern. GZ has allowed his right to a reasonable bail, to slip through his fingers, and into the realm of judicial discretion.

       • I agree except for one part. In everything I’ve read I have yet to see anything about them turning over the money that the wife had already transferred to their credit union account… Remember that she transferred the money prior to the bond hearing, denied knowing anything about it, held on to his 2nd passport, and although they turned over access to that paypal account and the website which is now controlled by whoever O’Mara appointed, there was NEVER a mention of them returning the money that was put into their credit union account. I’m going to have to say they are still a flight risk. They had that whole aspect planned in my opinion. Unless someone has a link to something saying they have turned that money back over I’m going to continue to think he is a flight risk

392. Judge is going to release statement made by GZ in the next two weeks!! http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/SKMBT_363-V12061312310.pdf

     • The order is dated June 12 and the evidence is to be released “within fifteen days” ie 27th or 28th.

       The day before the bond hearing. Going to be an interesting few days.

       We are getting GZ’s statements to the police, any tests done on him, and more crime scene photos (except any of TM’s body).

       Not getting cell phone records. May or may not be getting emails sent to the police afterwards (but I hardly think those can be too relevant).

       • Wow — moving quick. Judge Lester may have all he needs to let this thing pursue? Well, I’m guessing.

         I fixed that link typo — thank you!

393. What was GZ thinking about the donation monies he was hiding? I almost feel that his thought process was hide the money, pay off all the bills, I’ll get acquitted and me and the wife will be debt free with a nice little stash hidden away. If I had given money I’d be pissed with what he did with it. I can’t believe people are still donating to him.

     • Ha! I just said something similar. I think he was planning his getawy.

       • To be honest, most people struggling in ordinary jobs would be seriously tempted, if 1/4 million fell into their laps. Right or wrong. Certainly makes a new life n maybe a new country a lot more feasible than running with just the shirt on your back.

         But, now, with the lies she had to tell, that’s all gone. She might lie for him for 1/4 mill, maybe not so much for 5 years’ jail.

         But yes, people are still donating.

         One site reckons he’s a political prisoner, now being unfairly held without bond when he’s done NOTHING WRONG, just to suit some re-election agenda of I didn’t read further to find out who.

         Some people are so deep into their conspiracy thinking, they’d not recognise a fact if it got up and bit them on the bare backside. Only trouble is, we let people like that vote.

       • Ha. I think he STILL IS planning it. His myspace page bragged of how he got off clean AGAIN. And that was years ago. Think of everything he could have done between the time of that myspace page and now, that even when he has killed someone he was still able to walk around freely. In his mind he is going to get out on bond again, they already transferred enough into their account as well as his sister’s bank account, they have a passport, so they can easily disappear if this case goes south for him.

         http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57452277-504083/shellie-zimmerman-wife-of-george-zimmerman-allegedly-used-small-cash-transfers-to-hide-finances/

         $74,000 into Shellie’s account and $47,000 into his sisters account + a passport = a strong chance of disappearing for quite some time. They already paid off their bills including a Sam’s Club account and their American express.

         I find it odd that he pitched the whole idea as needing the funds to pay for housing and items while in hiding since he was “run from his home and work”… Yet everything I saw doesnt even show a work record for him in the past couple years. So I take it his unemployment ran out and this was their chance to catch up on bills and stash a nice little cushion for an escape.

         Also read that article because not only is she on the line for perjury but possibly more criminal charges.

         “If Mrs. Zimmerman intentionally structured the financial transactions in a manner to keep the offense under $10,000, not only may she have committed perjury in the state case, but she also may have run afoul of several federal statutes and could face serious federal criminal charges”.

         If a couple is that “fearful” to complete 8 transfers in amounts just under $10k so as not to trigger an alert with the bank or the Fed’s, and lie to the court about it in an effort to conceal the money, then that same couple might be “fearful” enough to flee once they are both out on bond and facing jail time.

     • How dumb can he and his wife be to think they can have all those conversations and transfer monies without the jail, the state and the judge not finding out?!! I agree with you Jon on your post. It justs further demonstrates his ability to lie and twist facts to get himself out of trouble. GZ not only lied about what happened Feb 26., but continues to lie to a Judge that not only can revoke his bond but will be presiding over his SYG hearing if there is one. It will be quite interesting on what bullshit he comes up with on June 29.

394. What of witness 9? I have heard of her phone call to Invest. Perkins. It will be interesting to read a complete statement from her regarding her knowledge of his racism.

     • I think the statement that we have heard was redacted. It seems and I hope this means that we will get the unredacted statement which both sides have said would unfairly prejudice sentiment against the confessed killer.

395. I think the judge will grant bond, but the bond will be too high for GZ to meet.

     • maybe, but then all quick-draw’s fans will mortgage their houses to send him money so he can be released…..haha that would be awsome….sooooo funny since george doesn’t give a shit about any of them and wouldn’t do the same for them if they were convicted of a crime…

396. I don’t think there will be any bail… The judge tried to be fair the first time around, in spite of the obvious imperfections in GZ’s stories, which make him appear more likely than not to be convicted. Only to find that, not only was the court lied to on two counts, the money and the passports. But to find that it was a willful contrivance, prepared for covertly in the several days prior to the court being made a fool of at the hearing. It was the SP who discovered and disclosed the matter, not GZ being forthcoming, nor was this matter borne of mistakes, errors or confusion.

     Although O’Mara, rightfully struggles to make it seem non-intentional, in order to preserve some chance for a win, which he must attempt to do, GZ has made this an impossible task, taking down all who supported him.

     Notice how quiet things have gone? That’s because there are no more tales the defense can tell that are not supported by hard evidence, of an unequivocal nature. I note that in the evidence dump Ofc Servino says that “GZ was on patrol” when he encountered TM. I have to wonder where he got that from? Was it just his thinking, based on his previous awareness? Or was it something GZ had told him?

     This is of interest because GZ says he was on his way to the store when he just happened across TM. While, if he was patrolling, then why was he doing so in the rain? How long had he been out there on patrol? And/or why did he suddenly decide to go out on patrol under these conditions, so late on a rainy night? Since this timing shrieks that a “report/notification” of some kind had been given him.

     • I agree, Judge was more then reasonable first go around. No bond on June 29th.

       • I hope the judge doesn’t allow him bond/bail again.

         Everything O’mara has presented about them as accidental or incidental is a complete distortion of facts and it is way past time for willful ignorance to be called out. It’s nothing more than cronyism that let’s these liars and “connected” truth distorters get away with misleading the public.

         It all boils down to do we want to have a civil society or do we want to have a society that condones lawlessness for bucks based on how well a liar’s spin can be sympathetically presented in Fox’s world?

         (One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch, yes? Fox propagated for years, so lookie what we now have!)

         A dead U.S, citizen teenager committing no crime deserves better from the land of the free.

397. Lonnie look at 261 and 266> on the other blog, about the evidence to come this week. He may have spotted him outside the estate, on his way to or from the Target store.

398. Holy shit those phone calls are insane. I honestly can’t believe that people are defending this prick. The lies, the lack of remorse, the insane paranoia. The insane talks about buying bulletproof vests and getting into a shootout, the cryptic talk about money, the weird joke about a hoodie… seriously… these people are evil.

     • Yes absolutley insane to talk about getting bullet proof vest when black celebrities are publishing your fathers adddress for vigilante action. yes absolutley insane to want to squirrel away money to hide from a mob out for your blood hen that mob knows where you live and work and plasters your picture and your wifes picture every where.
       for sure someone is nuts!!
       What type of drugs are you on??

       • Not insane, just a wee bit paranoid.

         Shellie testified at the bond hearing they had NOT received any threats and nor had they reported getting any to the police. This despite their faces being plastered everywhere.

         People can come up with millions of “good” excuses for wanting to squirrel away some money. It is bordering on insane to LIE TO THE COURT about it and expect the judge to take it lying down. It might, however, be a good way to be kept in jail so you can “feel safe”.

         More to the point, what kind of drugs is GZ on? you can go look for yourself, the jail is publishing everything he buys.

       • john B,

         Is the crystal meth making you paranoid? His wife’s (I know how to write in English so I use apostrophes) picture was not online until AFTER she was arrested for lying under oath. These audio tapes were the proof that she lied under oath, and therefore these plans were hatched prior to her picture ever being posted.

         What mob was out for his head exactly? The “mobs” were protests of unarmed people demanding he be arrested and tried for murder by the government. I know, because unlike you, I was part of the “mob,” so I have a slightly better idea who it was made up of and what they were demanding.

         And where exactly does George Zimmerman work? Oh, that’s right… he has no job. Where does he live? Oh, that’s right… no one knows… including his own attorney.

         The celebrity that posted his father’s address posted THE WRONG ADDRESS, and was forced to later apologize AND pay reparations to the offended party.

         I’m not sure which novel you lifted this ludicrous plot from, but clearly you’re a bit divorced from reality.

399. http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/New-evidence-released-in-Zimmerman-case/-/14266478/15142862/-/item/1/-/slk4rnz/-/index.html phone calls and bank statements can be found here

400. Dear mr high school sleuth Thankyou for the complete audio tape. You made my day,. First point Zimmerman had every right to follow a person he considered suspicious especially in the light of the recent break in activity especially since Martin was not a resident ( and was in fact a visitor at his fathers girlfriends house.) Point two Zimmerman called the cops and was already out and following Martin when the cops advised him to stay in his truck so that he did not, as some have said, disregard the advice point three it is obvious form the call that Zimmeman really believes Martin wqas upto no good. the reasonableness of that belief is speculative but Ziimerman (a) was on his home neighborhood (b) that neighborhood had been subject to many recnt night time burglaries and (c) neighborhoood watch is a reasonable exercise of precautionary vigilance Point 4 apparently Martin noticed Zimmerman following him and came up to confront Zimmerman. and the confrontation turned violent I think it went down something like this
     Martin hey man why are u dogging me
     Zimmerman look man i don’t know you but we’ve had a lot of break ins and like you don’t live here
     Martin hey man I do live here are you saying that just because a black man is out walking that you can jack him up
     Zimmerman: hey, I can protect my own community yes and i can watch anyone I want
     Martin: get outa my face man or Ill jack you up
     Zimmerman: hey man I’ ve got the cops coming
     Martin M…F and he attacks zimmerman

     There is no self defence claim for Martin and no mr junior G man you have no right to attack someone because he follows you
     The evidence shows Martin on top of Zimmerman and pounding him repeatedly ” martial arts” style. Martin was no boy but a 160 pound 6 foot 2 football athlete.
     Blacks as well as white teen age punks have got to know if you attack some one knock him down jump astride and start pummeling him or her, what that person can do in defence is pretty much unlimited and it includes pulling whatever he has out of his pocket and using it.
     There is no basis other than politics to Charge Zimmerman with anything.
     What is the DA going to put on?? the police call tape?? the eye witnesses who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?? Martins photos showing no injuries except bruised knuckles and one gun shot wound, fired from between two and four inches?? Zimmerman’s injury photos ??
     No Mr g man they cannot use your extremely speculative analyses ( any of them) Defense attorney objection your honor this is speculative and not based upon witnesses testimoney Judge; sustained mrs prosecutor do you have any actual witnesses , Prosecutor no your honor judge do you then rest your case? prosecutor yes judge I am going to direct the jury to bring in a verdict of not guilty based upon the total lack of evidence in the prosecutions case I make a finding that no reasonable jury hearing all the evidence the prosecutor has brought in this case could find the defendant guilty beyond reasonable doubt and I do direct the jury to bring in that verdict . end of case
     Mr Junior g man the teacher was right. Stick to stock speculation, you will make a better investment hustler than you would a cop.

     • You should read this…
       
       https://bcclist.com/2012/06/13/debating-george-zimmerman-supporters-is-worthless/

       And, before name calling (I think you’re referring to blog commenter Sleuth or is it me?), you should learn to write so people can follow your rants. I gave up pretty quickly but check out the above link…I think whatever you’re trying to say is addressed there.

     • aah, we meet again John B.

       It is great you have an interest in this case.

       It is great you have found a site, right here, that actually has ALL the released evidence available.

       Please take the trouble to read and view and hear the evidence.

       Specially for you, video of the REENACTMENT done the next day.

       http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/21/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

       In which you will hear Zimmerman tell a totally different story from what was recorded on his call the night before. A story that twists everything he said, and the dispatcher said, and mixes them into different order to better suit the story he is telling now.

       There is an ear-witness to how the initial “talk” went down, and it was
       TM “why are you following me for” GZ “what are you doin’ here???” in an angry tone, and nothing about explaining robberies or being Neighborhood Watch.

       ==========
       There may be some speculation on this site, but every bit of it fits in with one piece of known evidence or another. When another contributor notices something doesn’t fit, it is taken out of the picture. THIS blog has had GZ following Trayvon from the north-west corner, and parking facing EAST, for more than 2 months now, just like he shows in the reenactment. This blog was the ONLY site showing it that way. Because we looked at all possibilities that fitted the evidence.

       You may join us in this pursuit, or you may find dozens of sites that cater to the opinions that are unsullied by reading the latest evidence every day.

     • So you’re defending Zimmerman by saying he’s lying about who said what to whom that night?

       I’ve seen some pretty strange logic from people on both sides who come in to this with their minds already made up as to who’s guilty of what as they try to twist every new bit of evidence to support their view, on a number of different sites, but you leave them all in the dust.

       If your version is accurate, Zimmerman was covering up for Martin to keep him from looking quite as bad.

       You leave me flabbergasted.

       unitron

       • I have no idea who you are responding to.

         This confusion happens frequently since the WordPress app lacks the ability for me to see what people are responding to. But, even after taking the annoying step of visiting your comment via Safari on my phone, I still can’t figure it out.

         Maybe quote what you’re so flabbergasted by?

         • @NLME

           I was responding to john B (the guy who called you mr high school sleuth, rather snarkily, I thought), and his flight of fancy–

           “I think it went down something like this
           Martin hey man why are u dogging me
           Zimmerman look man i don’t know you but we’ve had a lot of break ins and like you don’t live here
           Martin hey man I do live here are you saying that just because a black man is out walking that you can jack him up
           Zimmerman: hey, I can protect my own community yes and i can watch anyone I want
           Martin: get outa my face man or Ill jack you up
           Zimmerman: hey man I’ ve got the cops coming
           Martin M…F and he attacks zimmerman”

           which contradicts what Zimmerman himself says was said that night.

           unitron

           • Got it.

             Sorry if I came across as rude — the WordPress app limiting a user’s ability to see what a comment is in response to is SUPER annoying. But, what’s more annoying? Trying to find a buried comment on small screen and then still not being able to tell who it’s directed at.

             I completely skipped over john B’s comment after the first few lines — too uncoordinated for my attention span. I see he ruffled some feather’s though.

             • No apology needed.

               WordPress couldn’t suck any worse if it tried.

               At least I hope not, but then that’s what I thought about HuffPo’s system until I started wrestling with WP on this and a couple other sites.

               I fear Slashdot and Slashcode have spoiled me, comment software-wise.

               unitron

             • If you read a message in email and you click on comment, then that is the message you will be replying to. Unfortunately your new comment will appear directly under the original comment, ahead of a comment that was made earlier than yours. Vexing because it can make it seem that you are to be credited with something you’re not.

               Then we run out of reply buttons and the board becomes an incredibly disordered mess. If we were writing for pay this would be intolerable.
               So it’s best to treat wordpress boards as a collection of posts, not necessarily ordered. Oh well.

             • Slashcode’s open source last I checked, so I think you could use it for free.

               unitron

             • Don’t let them go unanswered though, even if briefly or with a link, because often that’s all a reader might see is the post and read one reply, before moving on.

     • Actually you’re spinning your wheels and going no where. There’s not a shred of evidence that Trayvon ever laid one single hand on GZ other than his own word, and we see at the bail hearing how much his word is worth.

       As far as what rights GZ had, the only one that he did have was to call the police and wait for them to arrive. He had no right to get out of his car and follow, that not what NW is designed for, in fact they rule that out entirely.

       So then, when GZ realized that he was causing concern in a person who he had witnessed committing no crime, why did he refuse to identify himself and explain his actions? Is everyone he sees, who he’s suspicious of, some sort of super criminal or thief? No possibility that the person might be innocent and actually have a right to be where they were? Hardly surprising that turned out to be the case, which is why the police told GZ not to follow, they knew from experience what could happen. And what’s with the gun? Do you think that NW is about patrolling the neighborhood armed? Then you understand neither the rules nor the law. But, not to worry, the jury will get a short course on these matters.

       GZ exceeded his authority, disobeyed the given rules governing neighborhood watch, created a hostile situation and refuse to attempt to abate it, then followed and shot an innocent person to death, all based on erroneous assumptions that existed only in his fevered mind.
       If that’s the kind of policing you want in your neighborhood, then move to Columbia.

       • “GZ exceeded his authority, disobeyed the given rules governing neighborhood watch, created a hostile situation and refuse to attempt to abate it, then followed and shot an innocent person to death, all based on erroneous assumptions that existed only in his fevered mind.
         If that’s the kind of policing you want in your neighborhood, then move to Columbia.”

         Well said!

         I previously mentioned having a hard time believing the State of Florida/Judge Lester want to set a precedent whereas George Zimmerman’s actions are protected by any sort of law. The outcome won’t be good.

         • Geeze where to start first thing GZ was not the quote Self appointed unquote neighborhood watch captain he was appointed by the homeowners committee.of this private gated complex second GZ had made dozens of calls to the cops about suspicious characters in the six months he held that job two of which were later arrested an prosecuted for burglary of the some of the residences of the complex third GZ was out of his truck so he could see where TM had run off to before the police dispatcher advised him that he did not need to leave his truck.
           It was indeed GZ’s BUSINESS to see where suspicious young males who DID NOT LIVE at the complex were doing at night in the rain, that is exactly what a neighborhood watch person does. and TM DID NOT LIVE at the apartment he was temporarily staying with his fathers girlfriend
           absolutely tough titty if some young males wearing hoodies feel put upon the fact is there were lots of break ins in the area and I would bet a bundle that almost all were committed by young males and a significant percentage or even most of them Black males in hoodies
           Next only a moron of which there are many writing here would seriously doubt that TM was on top of GZ wailing the crap out of him when he got shot. and finaaly GZ was 5-7 to 5-8 and 185 pounds while TM was 6 ft and 160 pounds of 17 year old High school football player He was no boy and the press using the four year old pictures of him was unexcusable.
           Bottom line TM would be alive today if he did not have the bad attitude about how supposedly “all white men” were “oppressing” blacks and decide to get some back by wailing on a guy who was only trying to protect the complexes residents from burglary. and if you ar dumb enough to think that the job only for the police when you loose a bunch of your stuff to burglaries and all the cops can do is m very ocassionally get luck and pick a few of the perps up

           • I literally can’t read more than a few lines of your comment without my eyes bugging out. I think you were saying Zimmerman had every right to stalk, harass, and prey upon Trayvon Martin. If Zimmerman read a Neighborhood Watch Manual or two, he’d know this wasn’t kosher.

             Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons…Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous.

             Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.

             If you need a Neighborhood Watch Manual refresher, here’s one from USAonWatch…

             Click to access 0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

           • There are rules for NW and GZ knew them! He broke all of them! He created a hostile environment and there’s not one whiff of evidence that Trayvon ever laid a hand on GZ! So lose the attack and head bashing! Now what do you have?

             Or… Perhaps you can explain how one bashes a head on concrete, then covers a bleeding nose and a saliva filled mouth with each hand, and manages to not get any trace of any kind on those hands?

             Like the police officer says, Trayvon has no history of violence! Which is reason enough to believe that he did not attack GZ. That gets even stronger with the absence of trace on Trayvon’s hands.

             You are simply trying to pretend that “keeping the neighborhood safe”, allows for Gestapo like tactics by a lay person with no authority to question anyone! Most especially without the pro-offer of identifying himself! He’s not James Bond on the trail of some super villain. He’s in a neighborhood where he is certain to encounter people who are staying there, who he does not know!
             Does that give him the right to harass them? Is that “keeping the neighborhood safe?”

             Nothing that GZ was doing was reasonable, even the police told him so, and that 14 hour course he took, also instructed him that these things were wrong!
             The “authority” you are attempting to cite as reason to absolve GZ of guilt, is authority to do nothing more than call the police, and that’s it!

       • you mean in the bail hear the one held after every black celebrity is calling not only for Zimmerman’s blood but that of his family?? You mean the one where George did not want to give up every penny to the bondsman so he kept quiet about the 160 grand his web site has raised you mean the case where George who had been in the slam and probably spent days hearing crazed blacks in adjoining blocks calling for his blood, That bail hearing??. Where his own lawyer told him of all the political heat that was coming down on hm. where his own lawyer told him it would probably cost a half a million to mount a good defence, You mean that bail hearing??
         See, unlike you from the comfort of your armchair, I have a better understanding of the emotional realities of this world, especially in the so called hallowed halls of justice.
         Fortunately for Zimmerman statistically there are bound to be more people like me on his jury that people like you, no matter how much that prosecutor tries to stack the deck.

     • Perhaps you have a good answer for where GZ’s hands were through all of this and when he was being slowly suffocated. Even small children and women would fight back if you tried. I have a theory for why GZ has injuries, but could not fight with his hands. (That has to be curiously strange to you) It also will explain why he has all of the head and facial wounds. The gun was out already and hence, he couldn’t use his hands.

     • John B,

       How many times can it be stressed that George Zimmerman DID NOT have the right to follow an assumed suspect while he was appointed NW….and armed with a gun to boot. . Geez, when are you Zimm supporter’s going to understand that!

       • you can say it all you want but in fact the compound was privately owned and Zimmerman had the ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO GO ANY WHERE IN THE COMMON AREAS AT ANY TIME AND THE AUTHORIZATION TO SEE AND REPORT CRIME And suspicious persons WHICH REQUIRES SEEING WHAT YOUNG MEN MAY BE UP TO ESPECIALLY LATE AT NIGHT
         i can just visualize your concept of a neighborhood watch where no one is permitted to watch anyone 8) maybe we could issue the neighborhood watch people blindfolds to wear while on duty to be sure they cannot watch anyone?? Tell me Caroline are you for real or am I getting all wound up it a deliberate put on??

401. The defense released Zimmerman tapes:
     http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/21/12336010-zimmerman-recounts-shooting-martin-in-vivid-detail?lite

     Two things:
     1) The interview takes place 24 hours after the shooting, are those two little band aids you can get from Target really supposed to prove he was beaten within an inch of his life?
     2) Why would the defense release this insane video of the re-enactment? It’s absolutely astonishingly ridiculous (for instance, he claims he got out of the car to get an address, even though in the 911 call he clearly gets out of the car in order to continue following Trayvon). It completely doesn’t match up with the 911 tapes, the timeline, or commonsense.
     3) How did he pinch Trayvon’s hand to prevent Trayvon from getting his gun and manage to retrieve his gun with the same hand, as he claims in the interview? Wouldn’t he have had to unpinch Trayvon’s arm in order to do this, and therefore wouldn’t Trayvon have gotten to the gun and at least had a finger print on it?

     • Watch that bit a couple of times again, Cliff.

       He uses one of his own arms to show where Trayvon’s arm was. Supposedly reaching for a gun in a waistband holster.

       Then watch HIS arm, the movement of how he “drew it and fired” from a LOT LOWER. That gun was not in the holster. It was in his hand or in his pocket. And in the pocket Trayvon would not have seen it.

       Placing the gun INTO the holster after the shooting was a smart bit of misdirection, to make everyone believe that is where it started out. Not that he explains when he got the time to do that, between everyone coming out.

       And no witness recalls him asking for help to restrain the kid.

       And nobody shot through the heart at close range with a hollow point proceeds to say 3 sentences, falls back, then falls forward, then is still STRUGGLING 15 seconds later enough to need being restrained.

       On a third viewing I have found a true sentence !!!

       “I was driving …”.

       Note however the normal conversational tone and clear speech, compared to the slow drawling slurred speech on the call tape.

       • aussie,

         A) it’s Clif. My full name is Clifton, not Clifford.
         B) I know it isn’t in a holster, he claims it was tucked into his waistband. The problem is when he does this motion in the interview room… it’s clear there is no way for his right arm to stay locked to his side pinching Trayvon’s hand, and SIMULTANEOUSLY have his right hand pull the gun from his waistband, as he says he did.

         If you don’t realize what I’m saying, please try this at home:
         Stand up, and tuck something into the right side of your waistband (let’s say a wallet).
         Take another item (let’s say a remote control) and pinch it between the upper part of your arm and the right side of your body.
         Now try to remove the item from your waistband USING YOUR RIGHT HAND AND WITHOUT DROPPING THE REMOTE.
         It is physically impossible unless you are wearing your pants about halfway between your knees and your waist, or you have a physical deformity that leaves your arms about 8 inches shorter than they should be. Of course Zimmerman doesn’t sag his pants, and it’d be impossible for a gun to stay in this position while running if he did.

402. It’s interesting how Zimmerman stumbles and can barely recollect how Trayvon attacked him. He stated before that he fell on his back after being punched but in the reenactment, he says that he stumbled (looks to be about 15 feet) while he was trying to shoo Martin away. Once he fiddles his way past the murder, he was able to recollect to a T what happened when the first witness arrived and also what happened when the officer arrived on scene. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt but this is getting harder by the day. I also don’t know why his 911 call was so detailed and yet, he forgot to mention that Martin circled his truck several times before walking away (with his hand in his pants nonetheless).

     Me personally, if I was in fear of my life and a “thug” was circling my car with his hands in his pants (assuming he had a weapon), I would have drove off because I would be a sitting duck in that position. That’s just me though and I’m sure George’s ADD medication kicked in around that time.

     • “Once he fiddles his way past the murder, he was able to recollect to a T what happened when the first witness arrived and also what happened when the officer arrived on scene.”

       EXACTLY!

403. GZ fabricated details in his reenactment in order to bolster his self defense claim. If all this punching, pushing, shoving had taken place why did TMs hands only have a small abrasion on one finger and GZs hands were uninjured? Not gonna happen. My take from seeing the GZ tape is that GZ followed TM, there was a confrontation, TM was on top of GZ holding him down (not beating him to an inch of death) and when the neighbor comes out of his backdoor and says he’s calling 911 and reenters his house, TM at that point gets off GZ because he thought the ordeal was over. GZ grabs his gun and point blank shoots TM because he’s pissed, not because he is in danger.

     • i totally agree…i think he was pissed when he left his house and was looking for a fight or to be a hero. Poor trayvon just happened to be in the wrong place, he tried to hold trayvon and when tray got away he shot because he was pissed off and wasn’t gonna let this kid go. If he shot when trayvon was on him it would have been a contact shot. Trayvon had broken free. The gun must have been out….didn’t he say that martin tried to unholster the gun…get fucked, if you see a gun you RUN, how would he know how to “unholster” it. Damn you zimmerman, nothing is gonna bring this kid back.

       • Yeah, but the 45 or so seconds of Trayvon screaming for help lasted right up to the gunshot which is why it’s more feasible that Trayvon didn’t pause to get up when John the “witness” said he was going to call the police. Zimmerman obviously had the upper hand during those last few moments (after John went inside) based on the fact there was no way the angle and distance of the gunshot could have been administered while Zimm was laying flat on his back. It’s logical that the gun was in the confessed killer’s hand for at least a half a minute while Trayvon was screaming and fighting to prevent the gun from pointing at him, which is why Zimmerman did manage to push Trayvon back so he could shoot point blank into his heart.

404. I just listened to the part of the tape where the pick GZ up and he takes them to the clubhouse and then on down to where he parked and got out. His story isn’t matching with the actual call that’s been out there for months now. He never told dispatch TM came back and circled his truck, also says he does follow him but to get an address. This guy is full of crap. Nothing he says is the honest truth. He patrols the neighborhood and lives there yet doesn’t know the name of the street he’s on. There’s only 3 streets in the neighborhood. Full of crap and self serving. Why did he need a street address. Come into the neighborhood, left at the clubhouse. He didn’t need a street address, his whole purpose was to find where TM was.

     • Exactly! Check the Update section — I highlight some more discrepancies with Zimmerman’s reenactment.

405. If you google map the Retreat at Twin Lakes subdivision, you can clearly see the stop signs at both the front and back gates have street name signs on top of them. If you maximize the screen and zoom in, you can see interior stop signs in the sub also have street name signs on top of them. Twin Trees Ln, the road that GZ was parked on the night of the shooting, is the road you turn onto coming into the sub from either entrance and the road you leave by whether the front or back entrance. GZ said in his reenactment video that Retreat View Circle makes a complete circle around the sub but he didn’t know the name of the street he was parked on so that is why he goes in search of a street name sign. So we are to believe GZ is so dimwitted that he has lived in the sub for 3 years, stops at what looks like 2 stop signs either way he leaves his sub and still doesn’t know the name of the main street that cuts through the middle of the sub? He knew exactly what street he was on.

     • “He knew exactly what street he was on.”

       Agreed!

       Zimmerman’s the (self appointed) NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH CAPTAIN and not just a random resident of the gated community. Meaning, I’d expect him to know every single address (let alone street) just looking at the back side of any given house at any given angle.

       • …And there’s the rub… GZ supporters want to pretend that being NW captain gives GZ some special rights and duties, above and beyond what ordinary citizens have. Thus they excuse his actions as being something that a police investigator would normally do.

         What they fail to realize is that his being NW Captain give him certain responsibilities to fulfill. One being not to patrol at all, Two being, not to carry a fire arm in the performance of his tasks. Three being not to follow suspects.

         Now, even a hired private security officer would not be justified in doing what GZ did. Think about it! If a private security guard was at the gate and saw Trayvon acting suspiciously, and did not recognize him as living there, he’d have walked over and, if his uniform did not already identify him, he’d have identified himself FIRST.

         Everyone knows that uninvited approaches are potential hostility initiators. Which is why the one who approaches need to identify themselves, to establish their right to be concerned and “invade” the privacy of another person. Clearly when GZ knew he had been discovered following Trayvon, he also knew that he had invaded Trayvon’s privacy. That is a hostile act!

         Many of these so called GZ supporters, would bristle at someone walking up behind them, and asking them “what are you doing here?” Forget about what they’d do if they discovered someone watching them and following in a car.

         That’s what makes me think that GZ was doing something else that scared the wits out of Trayvon. Since, normally, if you discovered someone following you around a gated estate, you’d probably walk over and ask them what they’re doing. Instead Trayvon ran away. GZ had to be doing something that prevented Trayvon from even considering approaching him and asking any questions. That suggestion of dried blood on his head, would be a very big explanation of Trayvon’s conduct, if he saw GZ was not only following him, but bleeding as well… Well you probably wouldn’t consider approaching a bleeding stranger who appears to be out hunting. Another possibility would be he displayed his gun. Why Trayvon wouldn’t tell DD these things is anyone’s guess, if they happened. But they would be terribly frightening to a teen.

406. no longer thinking for the last time Zimmerman was NOT self appointed and 2 yes his eyes were blacked and his nose was broken and his head was being banged into the ground, and you expect him to remember every detail perfectly?? yeah right!! have you ever been assaulted?? FYI most assault victims when they get knocked about have trouble even identifying their assailants. I sure did when I was shot by a street thug at age 18!! Zimmerman was a good neighborhood watch guy credited with helping catch 2 real burglars in the complex, and until this happened was taking courses at the local college to be a cop.
     All you teenage Monday morning quarterbacks know exactly squat about real crime on the streets and your nit picking combined with your outright wrong statements about Zimmerman and the difficulties of neighborhood watch persons would be amusing if GZ wasn’t a real person facing a political witch hunt. If there is any justice in this world all of you bastards would get some real up and close personal experience with street thugs.
     and fyi young blacks who think they have a right to pound on people who are following where they go in private residential communities on the streets at night qualify as street thugs. Maybe if they weren’t so busy smoking dope and shagging any female they can, they could learn this Any of you that qualify and read this might want to think about this. In any residential community the neighbors, any, some ,or all of them, can set up a neighborhood watch patrol and they can follow ANYONE in the public areas period. Maybe this needs to be writtten on the board in every civics class. This is my last post on this site. I know from experience you cannot change the minds of the self righteous prigs,

     • A vigilante on Neighborhood Watch. Check the manual.

     • John
       all sorts of things have happened to all of us on this blog. And we’re not teenagers. We’ve just not let our life experiences stop us from looking at FACTS.

       Your first sentence above proves you stopped following the FACTS of EVIDENCE some months ago. You made up your mind then, and are scared to find out anything that might make you have to change your mind. That is called being bigoted and prejudiced. So you are contributing nothing to our attempts at getting at the TRUTH.

       There are plenty of sites on the web where even your comments would count as a breath of fresh air and sanity. You’d do everyone a service by going to one of those.

       Have a good life. Goodbye.

       • There are plenty of sites on the web where even your comments would count as a breath of fresh air and sanity. You’d do everyone a service by going to one of those.

         Have a good life. Goodbye.

         Beautiful! I love that.

     • Since John says he had been shot by a thug when he was 18, I’m just surprised that John is sympathizing with GZ in this case.

       Honey, it’s very clear that GZ was the thug with the gun.

     • Believe me we come from all walks of life. He can follow another person in the dark, but he must also be willing to deal with the consequences of SYG which works both ways. And if it isn’t a crime for a person to follow another that would mean the guy that follows your daughter home too. Oops, is that too close to home, be careful what we as society say is okay! What would be even worse is if all of the sociopaths who read you guys statements get confident to start following kids and women. “Why?” “Hey I got an odd feeling about her, she looked like she was up to no good, she may have stole candy….I didn’t follow her, I just went the same direction.” And when she clocks him over the head for getting too close, he can make up excuses for self defense and how he got a bunch of scratches and wounds in his face and heads.

       Are you getting who was actually scared for their life! Certainly not the guy who laid back while he was being suffocated. Gosh doesn’t he even have teeth in his mouth? Couldn’t he bit Martin? Lies! No matter how many excuses you make, you cannot find a reason that he could pull a gun but not fight back.

       • Here is where common sense deserts you No man not bent on mayhem would follow a strange woman any where. All males of any experience know late at night even going down the street the same way as a female may give her feelings of fear and if we are going the same way many of us will cross the street just to make the woman feel better. We are not required to. We have every right to walk down the street but most of us are aware of reasonable female concerns and will make the effort.
         But that is completely different that a neighborhood watch person following a young male a few score of yards through a private community
         One thing I am sure of. Trayvon was fully aware that as a young male black wandering late at night on foot in a strange neighborhood made him a good suspect as a burglar.
         Few on this site show any sort of common sense whatsoever

         • “Trayvon was fully aware that as a young male black wandering late at night on foot in a strange neighborhood made him a good suspect as a burglar. ”

           If it had been late at night, rather than just past 7 in the evening, that might matter.

           Or if it were a “strange neighborhood”, rather than one in which he had been the invited guest of a resident on a number of previous occasions, it might matter.

           But even if he believed that wandering on foot at high noon made him a possible suspect, what of it?

           The skinhead in the truck giving him the evil eye wasn’t wearing a uniform, made no effort to identify himself and his concerns, and there was no “Neighborhood Watch” magnetic sign on the door, so how is he to know it’s not just some creepy guy who gets out of the truck in the dark and the rain to “walk in the same direction” after Trayvon increased his pace and “skipped” away?

           How is Trayvon supposed to be able to tell he’s in no danger?

           unitron

     • There were no black eyes the night of the murder and there were none the next day during the reenactment as clearly seen on video.

       • None! And wasn’t it father Zimmerman that stated GZ had 2 black eyes, cut on his lip, and sporting a protective covering on his nose?! Didn’t I read somewhere on this post that his father was also at the reenactment? So that means he’s as big a LIAR as GZ!!!

       • He didn’t have raccoon eyes but if you see good enough resolution video or stills from the next day re-enactment, you can see discoloration around the eyes.

         Speaking of resolution, you might find this interesting and enlightening

         Redaction by reduction

         unitron

       • @Tina –

         I agree. The Zimmermans are absolutely liars. I’m so sick of them. I think the nail in the coffin was when I read that the father told the NAACP or Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson to “call off their dogs”. I swear I hope that is not true, but I have a feeling that it is. George Zimmerman called Sean (ins)Hannity just before he was arrested and I think the daddy’s “call of your dogs” letter was delivered either just before or just after the insHannity outreach.

         Some sites have “enhanced” (doctored) screengrabs from the walk-through video and painted Zimmerman’s eye’s black. But the eyes definitely were NOT black during the interview or the reenactment the next day.

       • first a black eye takes time to develop second the reenactment was not the next day two things stated and both wrong

         • If the re-enactment was not the next day, on what date did it occur?

           unitron

         • WATCH: Video Shows George Zimmerman Reenacting Fight with Trayvon Martin

           The re-enactment was the next day.

           John again proves he’s a moron reflexively defending anyone that shoots a black person… because all black people are terrible and they destroyed Detroit.

           The incident occurred on February 26th, and the video was recorded on February 27th. Last I checked, that was the next day.

           “It is February the 27th. It is 5:20 in the afternoon…”

           A bruise that was not treated with ice will typically form within 24 hours. Bruises on the face typically form faster than bruises on other parts of the body because of the thin skin and lack of fat in the face.

           • “Bruises on the face typically form faster than bruises on other parts of the body because of the thin skin and lack of fat in the face.”

             So you’re saying we could see Zimmerman’s black eye’s if only he didn’t have such a fat face?

             : – )

             unitron

         • Hahaha…

           😉

           He lost 50 pounds… shouldn’t we congratulate him on that rather than focusing on the 40 more he needs to lose?

407. @john b on 6/22/12 at 4:06 am: So Zimmerman knew every single resident of the complex, such that he’d know Trayvon didn’t live there, and furthermore, he knew every single guest of every single resident? Obviously not, or he’d have known that Trayvon was a legitimate guest there. Since he didn’t know everyone there, what right did he have to presume someone didn’t belong there?

     And what is this claptrap? “Bottom line TM would be alive today if he did not have the bad attitude about how supposedly “all white men” were “oppressing” blacks and decide to get some back by wailing on a guy who was only trying to protect the complexes residents from burglary.” You’re a mind-reader now and somehow know this is what Trayvon was thinking?

     • Wow aren’t you presumptuous. You sound as if feeling threatened by a lighter skinned man following you in the dark almost certainly deserves the death penalty. There is a lot of focus by the police about whether or not this guy continues to follow this kid. The implication is that it eventually leads to misunderstandings… You can rest for sure if the roles were switched, GZ would have another story of self defense and you’d be telling me why a black kid in a hoodie shouldn’t follow men with guns. Hence your argument lacks objectivity and credibility.

408. Excellent blog and thread NLME.

     I’m throwing this into the mix:

     TM & GZ meet. At this stage disregard location, times, routes.
     Per Dee Dee’s testimoney, words take place, GZ shoves TM and the line goes dead.

     TM recovers from the shove. He is already very frightened. All he has at hand is the can of iced tea in the plastic bag.

     He swings it at GZ, probably lands a glancing blow. GZ stumbles, slips and falls on the wet grass, quite possibly hitting his head on the edge of the footpath.

     End of ‘stage 1’ of altercation in the seconds it takes both of them to recover.

     While GZ is on the ground and TM is standing, Trayvon either sees Z’s gun or maybe Z pulled it. In a split second Trayvon must fight or flee. He jumps on the still reclining Z and struggles for the gun.

     Z at some stage gets the upper hand and reverses the positions. Trayvon screams for help. Z fires from position on top of Trayvon.

     Yeah, I know it’s a bit fanciful, but it does explain the two parts of the confrontation, Z’s injuries to nose and head, grass on his back, the conflicting statements about who was on top……

     • Hi Zhickel and welcome.

       Trayvon could be screaming for help in restraining GZ, too (which is what GZ claims he was doing after TM was already dead).

       It went something like you say, only they got up to the T junction at one point then went back down the path. If TRAYVON slipped over at the T, it’d give GZ time to catch up to him, TM starts running south again, GZ grabbing at him. Then he pulls the gun and TM tries to knock and hold him down so he can’t use it.

409. Pouring through some of GZ’s 911 calls, I suspect that GZ and FT used the police to harrass any blacks that were in or around the neighborhood that they saw. I strongly believe FT saw TM and called GZ so he would go harrass him. I don’t think it’s as simple as a neighborhood watch.

     • Thank you for the comment. It will be interesting to see if Zimmerman’s phone records show calls to/from Taaffe that night.

410. I think you done a great job. There is one thing that I am puzzled with, George Zimmerman stated he sufferd not only from poor memory, but was diagnosised with Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, a mental Illness in the DSM4 and was taking medication Addreall and Tamazepam both are highly dangerous drugs. Yet GZ has a conceal weapons permit, yet Florida Law prohibits issueing a conceal weapons permit to mentally ill person. Is it possible that you could tell me how this happened?

     • “Yet GZ has a conceal weapons permit, yet Florida Law prohibits issueing a conceal weapons permit to mentally ill person. Is it possible that you could tell me how this happened.”

       I’d love to know as well!

       • First: ADHD does not make someone a likely threat to themselves or others. As such, Florida’s gun laws are not intended to prevent someone with ADHD from owning a gun. To do so would be discriminatory. You’re grasping at straws with that one.

         Second: Most state laws that prevent the mentally ill from owning guns have no enforcement means to go along with the law. There is no accurate and updated database of those people with mental illness, and it leaves the gun dealers having to rely on the buyer’s say so that they are not mentally ill. That’s how the Virginia Tech shooter managed to get his guns, and he truly was mentally ill.

         Third: I’m still very much against these random tangents that people bring up when talking about the Trayvon Martin case. It is vitally important that supporters of Trayvon do not make this a political fight about racism or gun control or anything else. Right now the goal should be on putting this murderer in jail. The discussion of how to prevent these atrocities from happening again in the future and how to protect our children should be a separate discussion that most definitely involves Trayvon’s story… but that discussion shouldn’t be interjected into Trayvon’s case.

         • I think Michigan is pretty thorough. Meaning, I think being diagnosed with ADHD — indeed, a mental disorder — and being prescribed Adderal plus Temazepam would disqualify an applicant. As mentioned before, I could be wrong regarding Michigan’s concealed pistol law as I’m going off of not only memory but hearsay.

           Yes, it is a tangent. But, if Zimmerman knowingly should have not applied for and received a concealed pistol license, that’s huge.

           • Florida does have a law – DISQUALIFYING CONDITIONS: MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY If you have been adjudicated incapacitated, adjudicated as a mental defective, or committed to a mental institution, you will be deemed ineligible unless you have received a presidential pardon or been granted relief from federal firearms disabilities.

             ADHA some of the symptoms are Chooses highly active, stimulating jobs Avoids situations with low physical activity or sedentary work May choose to work long hours or two jobs Seeks constant activity Easily bored Impatient Intolerant to frustration, easily irritated, Impulsive, snap decisions and irresponsible behaviors, loses temper easily, angers quickly. And that does not present a danger and should own a firearm?

             Again ADHA is a Mental Illness, GZ admited he had it. I am referring to Florida law not Michigan. Secondly ADHA symptoms snap decisions, irrersponible behavior, loses temper easily, angers quickly. I think it meets the requirements: substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life.

             As to Addreall a brand name of amphetamine, side effects include restlessness, Hyperactivity, increased libido, irritability, aggression, psychosomatic disorders, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity. And amphetamine psychosis . It is highly addictive and withdrawal can include agitation and suicide ideology.

             In 2002, Tarnak Farm incident, two US Air Force pilots fired on a Canadian Ground Unit killing 4 Canadians. The Air Force had been giving pilots amphetamine so they could fly more missions, both pilots believed they were under attack at that time. One pilot was reprimanded and retired, the other was fined and reprimanded.

             • Interesting — I’ll definitely put some time into taking a look at Florida’s concealed pistol/weapons license requirements. From what you’ve posted, it seems like Zimmerman unlawfully carried a concealed weapon. Hmmmmmm…

             • There is also another issues that interests me, I believe you were there studing. At the place where GZ in the video states where he meets TM. In the video there is a small tree, about 1 inch in diameter. In GZ story he is standing on one side of this tree, TM is on the other side moving towards him. So much for GZ stating he was attacked from the rear near his vehicle, some 200 feet away. GZ continues to explain that they are in a fight, GZ can’t remember the details, yet he tells the Investigators he is on the ground, past the tree some 10 feet. Looking at the video this tree is completly intact, no damage. I would think in a struggle near that tree it would be damaged, as I said the tree is only about an inch in diameter.

             • I remember Robert Zimmerman said George Zimmerman was attacked from behind while returning to his vehicle. Did George also say the attack was near his vehicle?

       • My only information I have is that Florida hands out concealed weapons permits like candy, little if any background checking is done. A class is required to obtain a permit, but if you see some of the on line ones you get a feeling most of these classes are operated by “gun nuts”.
         A little more information on the medication GZ was reportedly taken. One is Addreall an amphetamine, it side effect can include restlessness, Hyperactivity, increased libido, irritability, aggression, psychosomatic disorders, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity, and amphetamine psychosis . It is highly addictive and withdrawal can include agitation and suicide ideology. Some one taking this drug is allowed to carry a firearm?

       • You guys are flipping out about adderall. Adderall is not a big deal. The side-effects are rare and exaggerated in your mind.

         As for Michigan… I’m from Michigan and remember it as being an NRA/hunting friendly state… your description of it is not what I remember at all… but to be fair, I googled it, and was easily able to find out that you are incorrect:

         http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq2.asp

         The state of Michigan and the gun dealer are legally forbidden from contacting the doctor of the purchaser in order to check their mental health. This advocacy group was helping someone with severe anxiety legally buy a handgun in the state of Michigan. They’re also helping someone else who within the past year was severely depressed in getting a weapon.

         The specific section of Michigan’s law states: “”a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life, and includes, but is not limited to, clinical depression.”

         ADHD nor adderall meet that definition.

         Seriously… you guys are barking up the wrong tree on ADHD.

         • Ahhhh — I’m talking about requirements to obtain a concealed pistol license though.

           Note: I’ve been talking about this for a few weeks/months. I will eventually look up the requirements for a concealed pistol license in Michigan and Florida but in the interim, everything I have suggested has been clearly noted as possibly incorrect.

       • “If you have been adjudicated incapacitated, adjudicated as a mental defective, or committed to a mental institution, ”

         Adjudicated does not mean diagnosed and/or just written a script sometime for a mild anti-depressant etc. Half the nation at some time or another has had mild depression, or anxiety, or sleep disorders, or panic attacks etc etc for which doctors write prescriptions as the easy way out.

         This “adjudicated” seems to mean serious stuff – schizophrenia, having the IQ of a 5 year old, psychotic episodes whether natural or drug-induced, etc etc.

         ADHD is not a mental illness. It is a mental CONDITION, a congenital slightly different wiring of the brain. ADHD people are normal, not “crazy” which is what the law seems to be aimed at.

         People are often prescribed uppers or downers for various short-term conditions, as well as narcotics (think oxycodone) for pain etc which may slightly affect their judgement. The law can’t prevent everyone having a licence just in case in future sometime they may get such a prescription… the having of which does not indicate mental illness.

         The law does stop CCW for people with proven alcohol problems, but a single episode of drunkenness can seriously affect judgement — and the majority of crimes by “normal” (non-career-criminals) are committed under the influence of alcohol.

         The issue in THIS case is that Zimmerman SHOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED on the night, as carrying a gun while under the influence of drugs (legal or otherwise) IS an offence. This is the type of drug influence that the law cannot be expected to predict at the time of issuing the licence, as it is potentially available to anyone.

       • You guys aren’t listening at all: CLICK THE LINK I PROVIDED.

         It clearly states the requirements of Michigan to obtain a CCW, and clearly states that the government does not have the legal right to check into the mental health of the person petitioning for a CCW. Instead, the dealer must simply ask the person requesting the permit, and take them at their word unless something is flagged in the criminal background check. Furthermore, the law specifically aims at determining whether you are a danger to yourself or others. Even those that admit to a mental illness are not automatically rejected: They’re given a hearing where professionals determine whether the mental condition they admit to would make them a danger, and if not, they’re still approved despite admitting to the mental condition.

         As for the silly list of possible side effects of adderall: Have you read the side effects for hormonal birth control? Depression and mood swings are two very common side effects…. so should women on the pill not be able to obtain a CCW?

         These are some of the side effects associated with Viagra: Depression, Seizures, Anxiety, and loss of vision. Should men with ED not be able to have a CCW?

         Some types of acne medication have suicidal tendencies as a side effect. Should people with acne not be allowed a CCW?

         Here’s a long list of side effects of Chantix, which is an aid to help people quit smoking: http://chantixlawsuit-info.com/chantix-side-effects/
         It includes suicide, mood swings, depression, aggressive behavior, and blackouts. Should smokers not be allowed to have a CCW, or should we just prevent people trying to quit smoking from having a CCW?

         An anecdotal story about two pilots does not prove that people on adderall are by and large dangerous. That’s the same tactic the right wing attempts to use to prove their point, and it is no more valid when you try it than when they do it. Beyond this, it is even more ridiculous in that these pilots were not prescribed this medication by a doctor, and therefore were not being monitored at all. Those actually prescribed stimulants go to both medical doctors and psychologists/psychiatrists both before the drugs are prescribed, and throughout the time they are taking the pills to monitor outcomes and adjust dosage/type of medication. The pilots were fatigued from flying too long and not sleeping enough, were taking illegal prescription medication without doctor supervision, and who knows what type of dosage they were taking. There’s also no Constitutional amendment that has been interpreted to guarantee (most) Americans the right to fly a fighter jet. They’re allowed to have higher requirements in the military, and in the airspace.

       • My guess would be that they simply accept the application, and do little to no investigation of the answers that are given. As such it’s pretty much an “honor system”, where they trust you not to lie.

411. how often do you have to renew a permit? What happens when someone already has a permit and later gets diagnosed with a mental illness or is prescribed drugs, are they expected to hand in their license? Could be a loop hole.

412. Crime of passion. The passion was anger. If GZ was at all irritable, the screams of Trayvon would have been maddening. George not only remembers things weirdly, he seems to perceive them differently as they happen. To George the event escalated:
     1. He felt Trayvon didn’t belong there.
     2. Trayvon wouldn’t leave The Retreat.
     3. Trayvon questioned him and therefore his authority.
     4. Trayvon may have resisted physically.
     5. And then those obnoxious, attention-getting screams started. They were long, loud screams, not at all like the short little puffs George gave to police. GZ tells us he was getting desperate in his interaction with John, witness #6. He was incredibly let down when John didn’t come out and assist. George says that he shot Trayvon because nobody came out to help him. Could these horrible, terrified screams have pushed George to the breaking point? So, this could be what he means that he HAD to shoot him. To stop the screams.

     • As I observe GZ in his re-enactment, in the interrogation room, on the witness stand I feel like I’m being drawn into another dimension. What is going on here? Is he a sane person juggling, conniving, twisting things? Is he over-coached and overloaded? I’ve wondered if instead he is just extremely immature. Playing games? You know, what makes the most sense is that he honestly doesn’t know his experience. Like split personality. He slips into states that are completely divorced from each other. Could his mind be fragmented in such a way that he can’t access certain things? Like the two minutes from 7:13:40 to 7:15:40 when he locates Trayvon in the dark with his faulty flashlight. The part of George that is calm and rational does not know what he did. So he doesn’t say anything about it. Or whenever he tries he is just guessing.
       Do any of you see him this way?

       • He is not extremely immature. He is extremely evil as witness 9 states. O’Mara said he’s admitting witness 9’s testimony although I think he’s exposing his ill-preparedness and lack of interest in anything other than raising defense funds and gaining public explosure by stating in court that he’s admitting witness 9’s statement as evidence. Witness 9’s testimony is the testimony O’Mara previously argued to make disappear because she states George is a nasty, evil person and so is his entire family.

         Zimmerman is not extremely immature. He’s a friggin’ grown man that is filled with a desire to do harm/murder an easy target (black teen) and come out smelling like roses (the hero) based on his own paranoid delusions about how black teens look and behave.

413. Screamin’ Jay,

     I do see a similar thing in zimmerman, my take in a word…

     sociopath!

414. Screamin” Jay. I had a friend, a ER Nurse look at the re-enactment focusing on the Zimmerman bandages. They laughed at the bandage on his nose. My friend has 20 years of experience and stated for a guy with a broken nose, that is no way to bandage it. Zimmerman bandage on his nose runs the lenght of the nose, the proper technic is to bandage across the nose so the bone and cartiage does not move and cause further damage. This method has been used for a long time. As to the bandage on Zimmerman head, they are called “Knuckle” bandages, they are very specific in use, but not for a head injury. In fact I was told that bandages are not applied to a head injury, apply presure to skull could cause damaged bone to break off and enter the brain. It would take special test to determin what the damage is. Zimmerman never went to a hospital where he could get such exams.

     There have been article that Zimmerman at work was a great manipulator, I am wondering if this was an attempt to gain sympathy?

415. I see him as someone who feels he is alittle bit smarter than everyone else. He feels he is capable of manipulating the situation with his brilliance, dazzling people with his smarts and due to his superior attitude anything and everything he does is justified because, he, GEORGE, sees it that way and his opinion is always best. And, yes, he’s a flake.

416. Here’s a link that everyone might find interesting.
     http://zimmermanscall.blogspot.ca/

     • @cherokeenative

       That is an excellent blog. I wonder who ‘Sling Trebuchet’ is. S/he is certainly no amateur sleuth.

417. Thank you all for your thoughtful words and comments here. Jon I agree he does think he is “more” then everyone else. I think he is a classic psychopath. His wife looks exactly like I had in my mind. I think they were the terror of that area. I don’t think they have ANY friends including but not limited to Frank Taaffe. There are always those like Taaffe that interject themselves into these stories, and the idea that he was a fellow Watch Commander…is silly. I know from research this Watch was never registered nor did George follow up with a call tree. It’s typical Zimmerman start something to bully people then drop the ball. It was just a facade for more weird activity on the Zimmerman’s part. Home Owner Associations do not allow renters to come to their meetings because they are not owners, which makes you wonder how Zimmerman was able to interject himself into getting them to mention him in a newsletter as a point of contact in emergencies. I think he was such a pain in the ass and nuisance they just said oh ok. All the police reports of burglaries or criminal property damage in this area is troubling to read. Since these 2 did not work and were the terrors in the area constantly spying and watching I get the feeling they may be responsible for most of these incidents. They say they were told to get a gun after 3 encounters with a pitbull named “big boi” and the animal control folks told them this…what?????????? We have a lot of pitbulls in Hawaii and I do know that blue nosed pitbulls are called “big boi” pitbulls. Come on already I think it was 1st degree murder but these are just a few questions I wanted to raise, thank you for letting me post any ideas are appreciated I have tons of what I believe are valid observations but for a different day. Mahalo.

     • On the Home Owners allowing Zimmerman to attend meetings, I was reading an article, a study of those living in Gated Communities, it seem to be a growing trend. What I found interesting is that these Gated Communities develop an “Us against Them” mentallity. As it has been reported, co-workers notied Zimmerman was always trying to please the suprervisiors, with Home Owners, it could very well be the same thing. It is also notied that Zimmerman seem to be able to walk around the Sanford Police Station, unescorted. In my criminal justice career, that would never be allowed, especially with a guy known to be carrying a firearm.

418. We have all seen the photos of Zimmerman head and the injuries, very dramic. Also how Zimmerman described to the Inverstigators how he felt his head was about to explode as JM was bashing his head on the walkway cement. I did some research on the skull and found some interesting facts. It takes as little as 15psi (pounds per square inch) to facture the skull. There are some 20 bones that make up the skull, the parietal bone where Zimmerman injuries seem to have occurred is one of the weakest. Zimmerman did not have a facture, so I am beginning to wonder just how hard Martin was striking Zimmerman head to sidewalk, as Zimmerman alleged.
     My Medical Friend saw the injuries of Zimmerman head and the testomony of the EMT O’Rourke said at the recent bond hearing. Remember about 20 minutes after the shooting O’Rourke examined Zimmerman and found him to be oriented X4, meaning normal. My Friend told me if Zimmerman head was as banged up as GM claimed, “felt like his head was going to explode”, he would be not X4 more like X2, meaning Zimmerman may not be able to remember certain things, like place and time. I got to thinking and remember Witness Six, who changed their story to Martin pinning Zimmerman on the ground and not hitting him. Zimmerman stated his head and only his head was on the walkway, he may have hit his only head on the cement while struggling, rather than as Zimmerman stated Martin was bashing his head on the pavement. Further, GM having such an head injury as he claims and the disorentation that cames with it, how would be able to reach for the pistol, let along keep TM from getting it as GM claimed he was?

     • He not only got the pistol. HE had time and presence of mind to think he does not want to shoot his own hand with which he is holding Trayvon’s wrist, so twisting his gun hand to aim around his own. (See minute 27 of the Serino interview, Tape 2; you’ll find it anywhere, Axiomamnesia has good tapes of it).

       • He received firearms training, no doubt including the part about how not to shoot yourself. That training could have kicked in as the result of having been practiced. It’s supposed to. That’s why the military does so much training, so that when something occurs you’ll automatically do the right thing without having to spend time figuring out what that is.

         unitron

         • I can’t see what this comment is in response to (via my phone) but is “he” George Zimmerman?

           Even if Zimmerman was well trained with a firearm — and, for some reason I doubt this — I expect the training did not kick in since he couldn’t complete other rudimentary tasks that evening like offering directions to his car or any sort of accurate street address.

           • WordPress s*&^ks donkey d%#*ks

             It’s in response to aussie making a big deal out of Zimmerman making sure not to shoot his other hand/arm.

             The big deal is why Zimmerman didn’t wind up north of the east west sidewalk “cut-through” upon being hit by an assailant approaching from the south or southeast.

             unitron

     • I know what you mean, John, GZs story just isn’t stacking up. If we can see and figure that out, I’m sure they prosecution will be ready to go to trial and show him for what he is, a liar.

419. Oh poor Chris Serino! As reported today “Lead Investigator” Chris Serino has been reassigned to the midnight patrol. Love the wording. A Homicide Detective “at his own request” has been reassigned to being a beat cop on the midnight shift. He has decided to administer his own punishment.

420. I saw the 1st 7 minutes of GZ’s re-enactment video. Why is the media not reporting this and including it in their re-enactment videos? Here are the relevant lies and statements out of George Zimmerman’s own mouth.
     1. Trayvon was spotted by GZ in front of 1460 Retreat View Circle..Frank
     Taaffe’s house. So I can assume TM cut through between Taaffe’s and
     1510 Retreat View Circle…via bing mapping the only place not fenced.
     2. GZ makes a BIG mistake when re-enacting this initial sighting while
     driving to the clubhouse with the detective. He says TM was looking
     into the windows and all around him, then this comes out of his mouth..
     “My Wife is..I was going to the store”…In my humble opinion the sentence
     ” My Wife is”….driving is the logical next word… I have long believed GZ
     was assisted and not alone that night.
     3. George unhooks his seat belt to show and point for the detective, I hear
     the exact dinging sound as in his 911 call. I had assumed the dinging
     sound was heard as he opened his car door with the keys still in the
     ignition, now I believe it is because the engine is running and he is
     exiting with Shellie as his driver.
     4. Because of the strange wounds he says he had and the picture clearly
     showing him with grass in the foreground (not the back seat of a patrol
     car I think he had some help from his other half to show injuries fit his
     claim of self defense. Also his car not mentioned at the crime scene
     processed or impounded tells me she did not walk to get the car she was
     gone with it.
     5. By O’Mara’s own words and defense exhibits he state GZ was seen at his
     Dr. the next day mentioning “Folgate” Well there is a Folgate at the
     Altamonte Family Practice and “she” is a PA not a Dr. But I don’t think
     a PA would put a “KNUCKLE” band aid on the back of his head no more
     more then I believe she would put adhesive tape from between his
     eyebrows running almost the length of his nose For what purpose, it
     looks like ole’ Shellie can’t tell the difference between a “Butterfly strip”
     and a “Knuckle bandaid” Maybe the shape was her effort and size was
     a matter of interpretation.
     Thanks for reading any ideas that can explain away these obvious faux pas?
     GZ supporters have some “splaining” to do.

     • Wonderful new twist there Sheila.

       Nobody’s much looked at the “my wife” statement.

       The comment is in the context of
       * last time it took the police ages to get there
       * this time he’s in a hurry
       * therefore decided to just call it in instead of waiting and observing

       This set the tone of the whole reenactment, which is mostly excuses to show he never at any time in any way followed Trayvon.

       On first hearing it sounded like “my wife is…. I left TO GO the grocery store” so wife mentioned as maybe going to be mad if he takes too long.

       On second hearing it sounded more like “my wife is…. I left HER AT the grocery store” which would make it even more urgent to get back there…. I thought maybe something like he’d had to go home to pick up his forgotten wallet or some such.

       But you are quite right. It could be IMPLYING that his wife was with him in the car (driving or not would not be important).

       But he actually says “like I said, my wife is…..” so he had said something about her earlier, before getting in the car or the day before, that was conversational and not included in official statements. “like I said, my wife is… I’d left for the grocery store” is how I hear it now.

       How does your idea fit with the keys? If he was not driving, why would he have the keys in his hand on the path? if he had been driving why not leave the keys in for her to use?

       “These assholes always get away” might make more sense being spoken to someone in the car, than just as talking to himself. Odd though the other person never says a word??

     • Oh but on this theory it also makes excellent sense to “just tell her I shot somebody”. If she’s close enough to hear the shot, that’s a way of saying “it’s ok, it wasn’t me got shot”.

       • Thanks for your response aussie, I have so any questions about what is not in evidence. As for his wife not speaking…I just don’t know I can imagine if your spouse is helping you “hunt” she is not supposed to speak to fit his scenario. If George was going to shop why is his wallet not in evidence? We could say he forgot the wallet but it doesn’t ring true for me. They log in his clothing, TM’s underwear is entered into evidence but Zimmerman has no wallet. Where is his car? I have big problems with this because the cops in the reports (which begins with a lie and every account after this by all other cops and detectives seem to arrange their statements to fit with the first lie) one officer told another to run all the tags on the vehicles to find possible witnesses. George’s car was removed so quickly because obviously it is not at the scene. If this witness was on the phone to Shellie (which may or may not be true) at what point does Shellie who lives at the butt end of RVC opposite side get to this car remove it under flashing lights of the cops at a crime scene? Most married couples have their own set of keys. George’s keys have a flashlight attached yet 2 flashlight are tagged as evidence. The re-enactment has George saying his flashlight was almost dead. I watched the clubhouse video…at a point in the video I see a large white light go on then off then I see a dull yellowish orange light do the same. The dead flashlight? Also in his re-enactment as soon as they turn onto Twin Trees Lane you begin to hear the wind. It sounds like there is a wind tunnel on Twin Tree Lane. My question is George’s keys with small flashlight are found at the crime scene also a bigger black one. How many hands does he have? Per the items tagged as evidence at the scene 1. Honda key with flashlight 2. Larger black flashlight. The casing from the bullet that killed TM is under him? WTF? Trayvon found face down with his hands underneath him….If someone is trying to shoot me and I am screaming my head off I see Trayvon putting his arms together in front as a defensive gesture. If someone has a gun leveled at my heart I would cross my arms in an effort to protect myself. And most disturbing is this overweight guy talking to cops inside the crime scene. One police report says there was a onlooker in the crime scene he escorted out WTF I can’t imagine Police allowing any other people into a crime scene. I do not care if this guy is a witness in order to preserve and maintain a crime scene this is unheard of. The integrity of a crime scene is essential, any missteps that compromise the chain of evidence will become “fruit of the poisonous tree” and thrown out. I would also like to see the actual certificate of his CCW License.

       • Tricky about the shell casing.

         The police found Trayvon face down, with his hands under him. But GZ says he “somehow” (he can’t remember exactly) got onto Trayvon’s back to restrain him ARMS OUT. One witness saw him from an upstairs window arms askew. Two witnesses saw GZ on Trayvon’s back. The police then turned him over to give him CPR.

         So the eventual location of the body, when first photographed, was not where he fell. He was turned at least once by the police, and certainly at least once by GZ.

         The casing was in the area covered by the yellow tarp they laid over Trayvon, so may have been a bit beside the final body location. It wasn’t found (using a metal detector) until after the body was removed from the scene.

     • When GZ gives the SPD NEN dispatch his mangled directions to TTL, he ends it with “you’ll see my truck.”

       I don’t think he would have left instructions like that if his wife had been sitting in it.

       When I heard that “wife” mispeak during the reenactment, my first thought was perhaps Shellie had spotted Travyon and reported to GZ. Phone records will clarify.

       • Ahm, yes, didn’t take him long though to change his mind about seeing the truck, did it? “no get them to call me….”

421. Oh my gosh. I found your site today and have spent a couple of hours reading the comments. I could spend the next three hours refuting most of what has been written here. Most substantive comments are based on totally erroneous “facts”, ridiculous theories or just plain bias and wishful thinking… i.e: GZ’s injuries were cause by the “kickback” (recoil) of his firearm ( simply absurd), that he was looking for a confrontation (in a recorded call to a non-emergency dispatcher on 2/2/12, GZ reported observing a supicious person- arrested days later with property stolen from their community – and in that recorded conversation GZ stated he DID NOT WANT TO MAKE CONTACT with the suspect… or do your contributors believe he was just establishing an alibi for the “premeditated murder” three weeks later?), that TM was an innocent, mild mannered youth (the complete toxicology report – yet to be released because the prosecution wants it sealed – school records – currently sealed by the family -, social media posts – deleted by the family but recoverable- and witness testimony will paint a VERY different picture), that TM had no physical contact with GZ because there was no blood on his hands (his hands were not bagged at the crime scene because of the rain …. but there is DNA evidence on the sleeves of his clothing – not released yet), that witnesses have changed/recanted their original statements (their attorneys and PR specialist would do well to review Florida Statutes regarding witness tampering and obstruction). I could go on and on, but it is obvious nobody will be swayed. I just hope that everyone can accept the decision of the court if the case is dismissed, or the decision of the jury if it goes that far.

     • Thanks for checking out the blog and commenting.

       Explain why the recoil theory is so crazy.

       Explain how Zimmerman getting out his vehicle and chasing an unarmed teenager walking home from the convenience store means he wasn’t looking for a confrontation.

       Show me something that indicates Trayvon Martin wasn’t a mild mannered kid acting like any given teenager.

       Not only was there no DNA on Trayvon’s hands, there were no injuries other than a small abrasion on his ring finger.

       I don’t get your witness comment. A slew of witnesses have changed, clarified, or redacted their original statements.

       • There are indications that GZ had bloody hands, arms, head and face.
         There is no explanation of how this comes to be, and yet no contact transfer of blood, dna or other trace to TM’s hands.

         Paramedics state that they removed/found dried blood on GZ’s head and face.

         I found a statement that says, that at low humidity and room temperature a drop of blood on a hard surface dries in 70 minutes. I know there are a lot of variables involved, but, consider: skin is a soft surface containing oil and sweat glands, which would make blood take longer to dry. The temperature that night was 60 degrees, twelve degrees less than room temperature, and finally the humidity was high. So, it seems more likely that blood would have taken longer than 70 minutes to dry on GZ.

         Now if TM never touched GZ, as evidenced by the lack of trace on him, then GZ’s wounds had to come from somewhere. You’d either have to suppose that he was creating them during the time he was supposed to be fighting, or that he created them earlier, some 30 to 70 minutes earlier at the least.

         We do know that GZ touched TM’s dead body with his hands. We know from the paramedics that GZ’s hands were covered with blood. What we don’t have an answer for is, how did GZ touch TM’s body with bloody hands, without transferring any blood? Was there blood on his gun? Was there blood on his flashlight? Presumably he handled his phone after the fight?
         Was there blood on his phone? We won’t know if there was blood in his truck, because his wife retrieved it before the police learned he had followed in it. But any active touching with his bloody hands, after the gun shot, should have left traces of blood where he touched. That does not seem to be the case.

         So, what we have is, what appears to be wounds that opened up sometime earlier, stopped bleeding, then restarted after the police arrive.

         So that’s the appearance of things as we’re seeing them from the evidence provided. We’re waiting for the release of more information that may clarify any misconceptions we may be getting. But, we’re trying to understand what evidence we’ve been given, and so far it isn’t supporting a theory of GZ being innocent.

         As NLME has said, GZ never had a reason to leave his truck! His only stated reason was to get an address where the police could meet him! If that was all he needed, he should have simply stayed at the clubhouse and waited for the police to arrive. Thus, anything else that he did, he did because he was following Trayvon, and not because he did not know where the police could meet him.

       • The recoil theory is crazy for the simple reason that a 9mm cartridge simply doesn’t produce enough recoil impulse to break someone’s nose.

         Do the masthead for yourself.

         Conservation of momentum applies here,

         Mb x Vb = Mg x Vg

         Vg = (Mb x Vb) / Mg

         Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x M x V^2

         KE gun = 1/2 x Mg x ((Mb x Vb)/Mg)^2

         I will leave it as an exercise for the alert student to research the probable mass of the bullet, the mass of the Kel-Tec pistol with a full magazine and the resulting recoil velocity and energy then compare this to the impact energy of a human fist. It is not even close.

         • Nothing like a little math and physics that nobody cares to understand.

           I think there are a bunch of YouTube clips posted in the comment section of one of these postings showing the recoil of a gun like Zimmerman’s at a shooting range (but I could be wrong).

       • @knuckledragger

         Umm… I’m well schooled in physics, and your entire argument is crap. All you did was list a hand full of equations you learn in the first week of physics. You provided no numbers, never solved for any variables… and said, “see? It doesn’t work”

         No, no one can see that. And of course you didn’t do the “math” for the fist either, so even if we wanted to follow your idiotic rant, there’d be nothing to compare it to.

         And to top it all off: You over simplified the phsyics of gun recoil:
         http://www.bsharp.org/physics/recoil

         That took a 5 second google search. The recoil from the bullet is the smallest portion of recoil, the recoil of the expanding gas in the barrel actually causes the majority of recoil.

         And how much energy does it take to break a nose? 7 pounds of pressure.
         http://www.chacha.com/question/how-much-pressure-is-required-to-break-a-nose
         “Even a child has the ability to break an attacker’s nose…”

         “Generally speaking, the more powerful a gun is, the bigger it is and the more it weighs. There are definitely trade-offs to having a light, powerful gun. Weight helps to absorb recoil, so a light, powerful gun will generally have considerable felt recoil. This is definitely true of the Kel-Tec PF-9. It kicks. But not uncontrollably. I would not recommend it for most women.”
         -http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/KTPF9/ktpf9.html

         Maybe you should come back at the end of your Physics 101 semester and try again.

         • Nailed it.

           • In regards to the argument over recoil: semi-automatic handguns have some recoil, but much less than an equivalent revolver. A semi is designed to USE the recoil to shuck out the old brass and to load up the next bullet.

             The only problem with the specific 9mm Zimmerman had is that the butt is really short, even in a woman’s hand. It’s harder to get a solid grip on it, and if you aren’t careful the slide coming back will bite you. For most guys, their ring and pinky fingers don’t have room on the butt of the gun (unless it has the modified frame for a larger clip).

             Firing it one-handed with a poor grip on a wet night, I can see GZ dropping the gun due to recoil perhaps. But I’m dubious about the gun hitting him in the face due to recoil. If it had, the slide would have burned him, the thing gets HOT.

             I still think GZ slipped and fell on the sidewalk cracking his head ONCE on the pavement while he was chasing TM. I also suspect that when GM caught up to TM he was pissed because of that, and grabbed the boy by the arm roughly.

             If some crazy-ass bastard had chased me down in my own subdivision and manhandled me, I’d have definitely fought to make him let go. And a pop in the nose is not unlikely in such a scuffle. It is NOT a life threatening injury such as would excuse the use of deadly force.

       • I wanted to respond to Cliff’s assertions but there is no reply button available so I am replying a bit out of order.

         Cliff’s reference for the assertion that the recoil impulse from the bullet is small compared to the recoil impulse from the propellant gases is just simply wrong unless you are working with very high capacity cartridges with low mass bullets. The main gun on an Abrahs tank is one of the few examples where the momentum of the propellantbgases exceeds the momentum of the projectile. Consult any reloading manual and you will find that the typical powder load for a 115 grain bullet in the 9 mm cartridge is only about 4-6 grains. The maximum theoretical gas expansion velocity for most propellants is about 2,000 to 2,500 meters per second, but most of the propellant energy is transferred to the bullet or converted into heat due to friction. With a 5:1 bullet mass to propellent mass ratio, the probable muzzle velocity of the exhaust gases is about 500 meters-per-second.

         Crunching the numbers for the little Kel-Tec which masses 360 grams unloaded and about 400 grams with a full magazine yields the following.

         Recoil energy is about 6 Joules.

         However; this is a gross oversimplification. The effective mass of the gun and ammunition is increased because it is being held by a human hand. When your instructor at the gun range tells you that a gun will recoil less if you grip it tight, they aren’t lying to you. The parameters are highly variable because humans are highly variable, but a reasonable estimate is that the effective mass of the pistol for purposes of calculating recoil energy is increased to about an order of magnitude and the recoil energy is also reduced by an order of magnitude as well.

         All of the gun gurus who state that ultra compact pistols such as the Kel-Tec are difficult for some people to control are correct. But “difficult to control” means keeping the sights on target for a followup shot, not keeping the gun from flying out of your hand and breaking your nose.

         • 2:00 mark below…I guess the recoil and harder edges of a Kel Tec PF9 9mm isn’t great. Is this the gun Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin with?

           Didn’t watch the whole video to see it kick. I know absolutely nothing about guns. I’d speculate if Zimmerman was under the unarmed teen who was reaching for the killer’s gun, Zimmerman’s face could be near his hands/the recoil?

       • @Aussie –

         “yeah??? GZ’s head was there the same amount of time exposed to the same amount of rain and HIS blood didn’t all wash off, even though his head was not bagged.”

         LOL! The visual of a plastic throw-away shower cap to keep those scabbed over wounds from further drying is… just too much!

       • My problem with the yt vids for kel-tec is the gun “pop” doesn’t sound anything like what was heard on the 9-1-1 call overheard when w#11 called. If I hadn’t known the vids were gunshots, I wouldn’t have guessed. The shot on the 9-1-1 call was clear and sounded exactly like a gunshot, unlike the sounds made on the yt vids.

       • CSFG re the gun shot sound.

         Whonoze might be along in a minute to explain that. Meanwhile i’ll toss out some possibilities. it’s to do with mike positions, an aural “line of sight” and direction. Some frequencies “go around corners” better than others. Video mikes might be marginally better (or less bad) than cell phone ones. In most of the vids the camera is sensibly behind the shooter, so the bullet is going away from the mike. In the murder, it was probably going perpendicular to it. Also in a relatively confined space with hard walls, the acoustics are louder than in open rifle range territory.

         But yeah, most of the vids its barely a little PUFF type of pop. And in movies the sound is faked. I hope I never hear a real one close up.

       • @Aussie –

         Ahh. Now I get it. Thanks.

     • Hello ram

       you are referring to 2 items “not released yet” and 2 items sealed as part of YOUR claim that Trayvon was not the mild-mannered youth we make him out to be.

       What would YOU know about the contents of reports “not released yet”? nothing. You are speculating as to what they might contain, the same as you accuse us of doing.

       Except we’re not going on “secret” evidence, we’re trying to make sense of actual true evidence hat has actually been released. The only speculation we’re doing is about how GZ may have got his injuries, because
       * they do NOT match what would be obtained from the events that he describes
       * there is NO blood or DNA on him or TM, and no defensive wounds on GZ, to indicate there WAS any serious punching or even close physical contact
       * there are no witness and NEVER HAVE BEEN for TM repeatedly punching GZ as he claims
       * NO WITNESSES to say TM started any of it

       “..there was no blood on his hands (his hands were not bagged..”

       yeah??? GZ’s head was there the same amount of time exposed to the same amount of rain and HIS blood didn’t all wash off, even though his head was not bagged.

       “…that witnesses have changed/recanted their original statements ..”

       so has ZIMMERMAN. Every interview he’s done tells a different version of at least parts of the story. And that’s just in the first 3 or 4 days, not weeks or months later.

       • “even though his head was not bagged,” I spit out coffee over this! Utterly delightful. Loved it. Thanks Aussie.

     • good job Ram but the people here have made up their minds that GM is a madman and they want his blood. They all post here because most of the other sites let them know what they think about them in pungent terms, This one is the haven so to speak, for politically correct white liberals. I don’t think they should have a haven and I believe in free discussion everywhere and I also believe in refuting craziness and lies.
       What really disturbs me is that no one see the big picture that the Florida government is feeding GZ to the mob to garner votes. No one ask why several prominent blacks are not under federal arrest for incitement to commit murder of the Zimmerman family
       My theory is because of all the backlash on the judicial murder of Troy Davis who was most probably innocent and certainly a victim of a horrible travesty of the judicial process, a bone has been thrown to appease the mob. That bone is of course a flesh and blood human named Zimmerman, but the establishment of this country has a long record of never letting some squeamish concerns about justice get in the way of politically savvy.actions

422. Travon was a drug addict hooked on marijuana and the drug lean, which is
     comprised of skittles-watermelon drink-and robitussin. He talks about this on his facebook acct. Wake up fools. There was one person living in the house where he was staying who was caught with 25 lbs of pot plants. Who knows what the others close to him were involved in. Even his mom and dad.

     • Bla

     • “There was one person living in the house where he was staying who was caught with 25 lbs of pot plants.”

       Assuming that you ddn’t smoke it all yourself, perhaps you could provide a link to this blockbuster info.

       unitron

       • Even if it was 5,000 pounds of pot, this idiotic (and presumably factually incorrect) comment doesn’t matter to this murder committed by a grown man stalking, harassing, and preying upon an unarmed teen walking home from the convenience store.

         • Don’t yell at me, yell at Ron.

           It was his ridiculous claim.

           unitron

           • I was! 😉

     • And??? Ron are you saying anyone who drinks lean is entitled to be shot on his way home???

       Or someone whose roommate got caught with pot plants is entitled to be shot?

       Or someone whose others close to him were involved in who knows what, is entitled to be shot?

       How about YOU wake up, and face it that this is not about Trayvon’s life, it is about his death. Nothing to do with what someone else got caught with (oh allegedly caught with, until you provide a link).

       • Well said aussie.

         Last I checked we don’t impose the death penalty for using pot or Robitussin. Besides this, neither are known to cause aggressive reactions, and he only had “traces” of THC and absolutely nothing else in his system, which has been posted on this website multiple times.

         Oh yeah, and the “lean” recipe typically calls for Jolly Ranchers, not Skittles. This is a very weak attempt of another neo-Nazi white person trying to claim Trayvon was in the midst of getting a fix of drugs when he died (because he had [gasp] SKITTLES!). [Please feel free to check for yourself: Google “lean recipe.” Then navigate to the various links, hit control F, and search for skittles. I found absolutely zero hits. If “Jolly Rancher” replaces skittles, there are multiple hits on every single page.]

       • The fact of the matter is, even if ron’s baseless comment had merit, Trayvon Martin didn’t get a chance to make lean that fateful night because both his Skittles and Arizona Tee weren’t opened as he traveled towards home while chatting up his girlfriend on his cell phone.

         I call spam. The comment was a copy/paste job.

         • Trolling if you will. Wish I could monitor it better.

     • You are thinking of the wrong Facebook account. There is another boy of the same name in NEW YORK who was the “thug life” guy the Aryan Nation people like to claim is the dead kid in the present case. The dead TM lived in FLORIDA.

     • @ron

       “Travon was a drug addict hooked on marijuana and the drug lean, which is comprised of skittles-watermelon drink-and robitussin.”

       Can’t wait to see how Judge Lester reacts to O’Mara when he introduces this tidbit of evidence.

       • Hahahah!

423. I’m amazed you spent so much time writing this without bothering to update it after the true facts came out.

     Nixon had his missing 22 minutes, you have your missing 2 and 1/2, or was TM just an incredibly slow walker?

     Truth has no agenda, but you certainly do.

     • A lot of evidence has come out in the past 2 months.

       Which “true facts came out” are you specifically referring to?

     • Feel free to point out anything that’s factually incorrect in the blog posting. If there’s anything that needs to be updated, I’ll make the changes. Without being said, anything with struck through text has been updated in the past.

       P.S. I’m not entirely vouching for the comment section.

     • Granted Trayvon walked a bit slow. He lost Zimmerman at the T. Then four minutes later got into a fight with Trayvon at the very same T. A reasonable person would figure Trayvon most likely hung out near the T during those four minutes. Or doubled-back.

       • Trayvon Martin was fleeing a creepy guy following him. Where he decided to flee makes no difference.

         You’re a “long time” Zimmerman – Martin case reader and commenter I believe — have you missed this map?

         

         From…

         Two Maps of the George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin Chase

424. During the reenactment (part 2) at around 2:28 GZ is saying he told the police they will see his truck when they pull in, a silver Hummer original. I googled what personality type drives a Hummer and these are a few of the results I found hilarious but very telling:

     In my experience, they are some of the same morons who feel the need to keep 10-15 guns around the house so they can “feel safe.”

     Some jerk of an employee just got a big huge gold one, and he gets a reserved parking spot. One day, someone parked in his spot, and in HUGE letters on a big piece of white paper on this car’s windshield was one of the angriest most threatening notes I ever saw. So THAT is the kind of person who gets a hummer, selfishness and EGO.

     My apologies to anyone reading this who drives a Hummer, but for GZ what a fitting vehicle. It says alot.

     • I only heard Honda Ridgeline. I’ll look for what you’ve pointed out though. Reenactment part 2 is just the entire reenactment, correct?

       [There might be a link above that you’re citing…I can’t see it on my phone.]

       • I went back and relistened. You’re right, he does say Silver Honda Ridgeline. Oh well, I had my morning chuckle there for awhile…..

     • Jon that might be true about Hummer owners; sounds right for the few I’ve come across.

       But GZ says (muttering, it’s true) “silver Honda Ridgeline” which sounds similar to Hummer Original. But we know Honda is what he had, because when I threw doubts on the Honda key being his, poor NLME spent about 100 hours listening to door chimes on car commercials, to identify the chime off the tape as being a Honda Ridgeline.

       NLME, in CSI they’d have a tape library of all known car noises, and a computer program to recognise the right one for them. Before the next commercial break. 😉

       • “NLME, in CSI they’d have a tape library of all known car noises, and a computer program to recognise the right one for them. Before the next commercial break. ;)”

         Hahaha!

     • Wow now we are convicting the guy based on his choice of ride.. so say was this a hummer one two or three because you see that might make a difference… NOT .

       This must be the losers nerds blog. by the way did you ever post the real up to date picture of Martin with all the tats and the grill or the fact the he was caught with a big screw driver and rings and gold jewelry he said he ” found.” For your info a big screw driver is all burglars need to jack a standard exterior door, then straight to the bedroom, into the jewelry box and out.
       When will you nerds wise up and stop with your comedic attempts to make this thug into a victim?? Yeah its too bad he jumped an armed man and the one slug that was fired was fatal but these were his choices. the only thing Zimmerman chose was to protect his neighborhood from thugs like Trayvon

       • I haven’t been called a nerd since grade school — thank you for the comment.

         So, you’re saying Trayvon attacked Zimmerman? Per who? George? As of right now, we know witnesses suggest otherwise and his word is worthless.

         Got any pictures you’d like to post from your teenage years?

       • john B,

         What are you, a 12 year old girl? Who says “NOT” anymore, or calls other adults nerds as some sort of an insult?

         I’m ex-Navy, and I have a tattoo. Actually, most the guys I served with had/have tattoos. Does that mean we’re all a bunch of thugs and deserve to be killed? And George Zimmerman has a tattoo, too… doesn’t that mean Trayvon would have been right to attack him?

         And Trayvon wasn’t carrying a screwdriver when he was shot, he was carrying a can of iced tea and a bag of skittles. Was he somehow going to Magyver that into a tool for breaking and entering?

         Do you have any evidence Trayvon has ever attacked anyone ever? There are police reports showing Zimmerman had a history of violence, attacking women and police officers in the past. There are 0 witnesses nor records showing Trayvon ever attacked anyone…

         But you’re a big bully, and we’re just a bunch of geeks, so you know best. We should just listen to you before you give all us big sissies swirlies, right?

         • “We should just listen to you before you give all us big sissies swirlies, right?”

           Classic!

           Adds: Aggression due to an ADD medicine is listed in Zimmerman’s doctor’s report as well.

       • @ john B

         The pictures you cite as evidence have been proven to be fakes – either Photoshopped or a different person.

         http://www.northwestohio.com/news/story.aspx?id=735111

         http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2012/03/27/when_in_doubt_smear_the_dead_kid.html

         You really need to be a little more discriminating about your information sources.

       • No, GZ isn’t being convicted due to the fact I thought he said Hummer when he said Honda. What he did do tho is profile, follow, provoke and shoot an unarmed teenager. GZ saw TM walking infront of his friends house (Frank) and assumed the worst. There is no evidence whatsoever that TM was a thug.

       • M,y my, you seem to know an awful lot about being a burglar.

425. There is no evidence that George Zimmerman’s dripping, bloody nose or head wounds ended up on Trayvon Martin after at least 40-some seconds after both men were scuffling, one atop the other, rolling around and in contact with each other. WHY????????

     • With all that blood (45% of Zimmerman’s face/head covered) you’d expect a plethora of DNA on Trayvon, right? I can’t imagine a bleeding guy on top of me with a loaded pistol pointed at my chest as cop car sirens are blaring in the background. I’d obviously plead for help like Trayvon did.

       What was Zimmerman scared of again? Punches to the face, repeated head slamming, and mouth smothering? As discussed, yelling for help while the above is occurring to you is impossible.

       Or, did Zimmerman only start screaming for help when Trayvon reached for his gun? That’s a long period of screaming for Trayvon’s DNA not to be found on Zimmerman’s gun.

       • I remember you saying perhaps Zimmerman shot AFTER recanter John said he’s calling 9-1-1 and then and only then did George Zimmerman realize he was now working under time constraints to shoot the kid. He needed to make sure no close up witnesses (Trayvon Martin) survived to tell what really happened.

         Zimmerman’s a sick, sick killer and I wish he hadn’t been allowed to bond out. Society is in danger from 6am-6pm while he’s free to roam the streets looking for more neighbors to “help” by profiling and killing them. Hopefully, during this time, he doesn’t have a gun on him.

       • where is all this rolling around?? Martin knocked Zimmerman down with a punch to the head then sat on top of him and punched him repeatedly Martins knuckles were bruised bloody and I will bet had plenty of Zimmerman’s dna on them Zimmerman on the other hand did not have this bruising I doubt Zimmerman landed one good punch. All the evidence is consistent with this.
         of course the whiners on this web site are so sure that Zimmerman was some sort of Nazi who was determined to kill a black kid that they will not listen to reason

         • I think you missed the Update section of the currently maintained blog posting below. Regardless of what Fox News, ABC News, basically the entire MSM, etc. has said, Trayvon Martin had no injuries to his hands or knuckles other than a small abrasion on a ring finger.

           Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Evidence and Court Proceedings

       • dear common sense Zimmerman has called the cops on suspected charactors 67 times in about 8 months he has two assisted arrests and two post arrest Ids to his credit of actual burglars caught . no where before has he so much as laid a glove on any of the suspects, so where in the world did you get this nonsense you are writing?? the fact is simple Martin confronted Zimmerman knocked him down punched the crap out of him and went for his gun whether or not Zimmerman had pulled it at this point is IMHO moot.
         Yeah the whole thing would have been better if Zimmerman had a taser or mace but he didn’t.
         As For Martin He was a burglar who had just days before been searched at his school and releaved of burglars tools and rings and Jewelery he said he had ” found” along with pot.
         Why don’t you wise up to what is really going on on the streets??

         • So wise.

       • Dear John B.,

         You’re a racist slandering piece of crap that completely distorts the facts to fit whatever scenario he wants. Here’s a list of your lies:
         (I have copied and pasted your own words, separated each lie out, and a link to at least one credible source to prove you are lying)

         A) dear common sense Zimmerman has called the cops on suspected charactors 67 times in about 8 months he has two assisted arrests and two post arrest Ids to his credit of actual burglars caught . no where before has he so much as laid a glove on any of the suspects, so where in the world did you get this nonsense you are writing??

         LIE 1: Zimmerman was (allegedly) fired from an under the table security gig because he was too violent and aggressive with the party goers. He was also arrested for assaulting a police officer, and had domestic violence charges brought against him.
         http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite
         http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html

         B) the fact is simple Martin confronted Zimmerman knocked him down punched the crap out of him

         LIE 2: If this were a “fact,” there would be no second degree murder trial. And as previously pointed out to you on multiple occasions, there was only a small abrasion on one of Trayvon’s fingers. Not exactly consistent with beating the living crap out of someone.
         http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0706/Judge-s-rebuke-to-George-Zimmerman-turning-point-in-Trayvon-Martin-case (that’s right, not even The Christian Science Monitor says this is a fact)
         http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/05/16/what-zimmerman-martin-medical-reports-tell-us-and-media-didnt/ (John Lott… the author of “More Guns Less Crime” doesn’t even definitely state that this is a fact. That’s how far out in “left” field you are)

         C) and went for his gun whether or not Zimmerman had pulled it at this point is IMHO moot.
         LIE 3: Where were you trained in Florida law again? Oh, that’s right, you’re just some ignorant racist redneck that thinks anyone can pull a gun on black kids whenever they want, because black kids are obviously all criminals.
         Well, according to the stand your ground law, any person has the right to stand their ground and fight back if they have a reasonable fear for their life. Being followed and held at gunpoint by an unidentified stranger most definitely qualifies as a situation that would allow reasonable fear for one’s life. That means Trayvon would be within his legal right to tackle and beat the crap out of Zimmerman in this situation. He actually had the right to kill him if Zimmerman proceeded to fight back.
         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

         D) Yeah the whole thing would have been better if Zimmerman had a taser or mace but he didn’t.
         As For Martin He was a burglar who had just days before been searched at his school and releaved of burglars tools and rings and Jewelery he said he had ” found” along with pot.
         Why don’t you wise up to what is really going on on the streets??

         LIE 4: He has no arrest record. He was returning to the place he was staying with a LEGALLY PURCHASED bag of skittles and an iced tea. The “bag with marijuana residue” turned out not to actually have marijuana residue. The “stolen” goods were never reported as stolen by anyone, and there is no evidence that he took the items anyways. Even if they were stolen objects, he would only be guilty of “possession of stolen items,” which does not make someone a burglar. And of course, even you don’t accuse Martin of a single other instance of violence. So going from your own logic, what would possibly indicate he would attack Zimmerman had he never attacked the school security guards, or anyone else that had ever questioned him before? Especially since on this occasion, he was not in possession of drugs, “stolen” jewelry, or a “burglary tool”?
         http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10872124-trayvon-martin-was-suspended-three-times-from-school?lite

         This will be the last time I respond to one of your stupid, racist, lying, childish posts. You have been presented with the actual facts on multiple occasions, yet you keep going off on tirades based off discredited information, or just completely cooked up in your own delusional mind. You’re not interested in having a discussion or discovering what actually happened on that very sad night. You’re just attempting to disparage the name of a dead kid that can’t defend himself, spread whitewashed misinformation and propaganda, and prevent an actual real discussion by the adults here who actually care about the truth, the law, and achieving justice.

         Sincerely,
         A white guy who lives in northeast Philly in an ethnically diverse neighborhood.
         -Philly is the 6th most dangerous large city in the United States, and the northeast is not considered a very nice section of this not very nice city.

         I’m pretty sure I have a lot better idea “what’s going on out there” than you do. So please, return to your neo-Nazi compound in the hills of West Virginia and leave the rational adults to their conversation.

       • @Clif –

         Tell it like it is! Well said, imo.

       • @John B –

         Zimmerman himself said he got on top of Trayvon.. lunged on top of him, if I remember correctly. Why didn’t his bleeding nose and head bleed onto Trayvon Martin?

         Go look at the evidence. Don’t take my word for it.

     • Dear John B –

       I was tempted to say eFF U.

       But instead, I’d like to hear your theory of how the “Nazi” interacts with us Americans in a 2012 setting. Shed some light why don’t you.

       • John B, you keep telling us we get the facts wrong but did it occur to you maybe your facts are rather screwed. Where did you pick up that George Zimmerman reported 67characters of suspicious behavior in 8 months, because it certainly wasn’t from any official police log. Accordingly, he made 47 calls to the police since 2004 most of which were mundane issues that were not worthy of police interaction. As for your comment about Zimm not so much as laying a finger on any suspects, well you know the saying, “There’s always a first time” and I hope to God it is the last.

     • The simple answer is, because it didn’t happen that way. GZ simply chased down, grabbed and shot the kid, then made up a story out of “whole cloth”.
       If GZ wasn’t following TM, then he should, would and could not have left his position near the clubhouse. If he needed to meet the police, then he should have simply driven back to the clubhouse.

       The only reason for GZ not meeting the police at the clubhouse where he had the address already, was that he had to leave that position to follow TM. The only reason he has for exiting his vehicle, instead of driving back to the clubhouse to meet the police, is that he wanted to follow TM.

       If he wasn’t following TM as he claimed, then none of his actions make any sense, because he doesn’t need to engage in them. The only explanation for his actions that night is that he wanted to follow TM.

       The rest of the evidence supports the view that he also desired to confront TM and he did. He shot TM and the evidence shows that there was no threat to himself. Sure he had wounds that were bleeding, but the evidence shows that TM was not the cause of those wounds, nor did TM make any physical contact with GZ when GZ was bleeding. It also shows that TM did not make any physical contact with GZ when GZ was not bleeding. GZ’s stories are a pack of lies.

       Well, the bondsman’s fee is 10%, that’s a fee. It isn’t returned. If you post the bail in cash, then that money is returned when the case is disposed of. When you pay a bondsman his fee, however, you get diddly-squat back.
       So GZ’s lies have cost him 100,000 dollars in cash. Meaning O’Mara is truly pissed, since there’s very little cash coming in to cover his fees. In the 48 hours since the bail hearing, the website only took in 20k. Looks like GZ is toast, O’Mara isn’t going to go broke handling this case. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he quits too. All he needs is a little more GZ insanity to give him a good enough excuse.

       I think Taaffe has gone quiet, now that he realizes he’s under scrutiny. Because his odd behavior can only be explained by his connection to GZ and the location of his house, which GZ and himself, took great pains to avoid mention of. For sure, the FBI will want to come out of this with a few heads on pikes of their own. My guess is they’ll divvy it up.

       • That’s exactly right. That was one expensive lie! As far as O’Mara goes, the Zimmerman supporters are calling for him to be fired. LOL

         Let’s not forget that O’Mara *claimed to have the passport but *forgot to turn it over to the courts.

       • I’m so glad I was in error about getting back the $100,000 back. Thanks a bunch you guys for keeping the facts straight here!
         Evidently O’Mara can’t go back and ask the state to pick up any indigency funding either if they run out of money. He had to declare one way or the other when he decided to forego his pro bono status.

426. Zimmerman is out now. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57467791-504083/accused-trayvon-martin-killer-george-zimmerman-leaves-jail-on-$1m-bond/

     Guess his attorney found it ok afterall to use other people’s money for bail. They’ve raised an additional $20k overnight sense the $1M bond was ordered.

     Perverted and sick.

     • Haven’t read the above link yet — $20k is it? Zimmerman’s legal team will be BEGGING to plead him out.

       • Yeah. The disurbing, shameless beg is phrased with such insensitive verbiage. Here’s part of it

         [..] for those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes… now is the time to show your support.

         I would think this would be against the bar association’s rules. If it isn’t, it should be! Not an ounce of remorse. Even if it were self-defense (and I don’t believe for a minute that it was), how can O’Mara be this nasty about it? Doesn’t he realize that a child was murdered yet?

     • Common Sense,
       Earlier you mentioned that Zimmerman himself said he got on top of Trayvon.. lunged on top of him. I’ve often wondered if that was when he actually had final control and shot Trayvon and not after as he says.

427. O’Mara is reported to be in Colorado — where the TalkLeft’s Jeralyn (a fake Dem, but 100% pro-Zimmerman site) is based I think. Fresh new $20K raised as TalkLeft helps O’Mara beg for money for the killer’s defense fund/O’Mara’s paycheck. Is this a coincidence?

     I think it’s time to start a movement to disbar attorney’s that aid and abet turning attorneys into propagandists promoting raising funds for killing minority kids — or kids of any race.

     • Ahhh — if O’Mara is in Colorado to pick up a check for only $20k, Zimmerman’s site must not have raised too much cash after the 2nd bond hearing. Meaning, I’d guess less than a million dollars. Remember — per O’Mara, the trial is a year away. Well, he said that a month ago (and may have said it again more recentlyy).

       Zimmerman’s fundraising is all being managed by a trust, correct? Can the state request to take a look around? If so, it would be smart of O’Mara to shed some sort of light into what has been raised/spent now rather than later.

       • His website claims to have raised $55K in 2 months with the bulk coming in between yesterday and today. That’s under $500 daily except for the $20K that came in to free Zimmerman in response to Judge Lester’s $1M bond order.

         Zimmerman’s “fans” seem to want Zimmerman to be in a good position to flee, but don’t want O’Mara to get paid and don’t want the money they sent him to be used for defense experts.

       • the gzlegalcase site says $20,000 raised since the bond hearing (a couple of days) and $55,000 since the first bond was cancelled. This was from the day before the bond was found and he got released again.

428. To John B
     This is the same slander I keep hearing from..well I won’t say but it is done to discredit TM. First off, TM has no criminal record, GM does and for violence. The so called burglar tool was a common screw driver, other such so called burglar tools included credit cards, hammers, crow bars, if you have any of these you are in possion of burglar tools. This was on old trick police used to make an arrest, the courts have however struck it down. As to the jewelary, it is still in the possions of the school, no one has reported it missing nor has anyone claimed it. It was claimed that TM had a plastic bag with marihuana resadue, however test showed negative, TM has not been charged with possion. Chris Serino the Investigator stated that TM was NOT, I repeat NOT doing anything suspicious, he was a good kid with a furture.

     • Thanks John W. Since Trayvon’s tragic death his name has been dragged through the mud by those who would defend a vigilante over him and that speaks volumes as to their mindset.

       • I agree. I honestly cannot believe what I’ve been seeing. And O’Mara has the nerve to put on his website,

         “… for those who feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes, …for those who feel this case is an affront to their constitutional rights — now is the time to show your support.”

         UnF’ing believable!

429. I’m glad the judge was able to see GZ possibly was preparing to flee. And it’s my understanding GZ has to stay in Seminole County until the trial, no hiding out of state. Correct?

430. It is very difficult to find truth on the internet or through any news organization.
     1.) Can someone direct me to any factual evidence as to GZ’s Honda at the crime scene. I have read that his wife removed it before the SP could search or impound it.
     2.) Per the transcripts of jailhouse calls: there was a considerable amount of cash put into several safe deposit boxes. Did Mark O’Mara get access to that money. I believe there was an insane amount of money laundered but limited to GZ wife and sister/ i.e. cks fr Ruth Dean & Gladys Z. I think the entire windfall of cash was hidden by this entire family. Memo notation on Ruth Dean’s chk says Love JMJ then these 2 Z knuckleheads begin mentioning underground garage at airport Sams Club payoff and some idea about TJMaxx. GZ then says something to the tune of after I get bond I want to go from here to Heaven (plane?)
     Considering all this cash they were sitting on why would Gladys & Ruth write a check to them for any amount?
     One last comment is GZ focuses only on himself and movement of this money also who is Shellie referring to as their safety council? Any ideas are appreciated.

     • The vehicle has been a huge headache for us from Day One. If was never mentioned in early police reports. It may be in ones not released yet.
       The keys+flashlight found near the T were for a Honda. NLME spent hours listening to door chimes on vehicle commercials to establish the chimes on GZ’s phone tape were for a Honda Ridgeline. This was confirmed in the GZ walk through where he says that’s what he has.

       There are no photos of the scene with a Honda Ridgeline anywhere. By the time of TV views of the scene, taken in daylight the next morning, there is no Honda visible; in one image there are 2 different brand trucks, possibly belonging to the TV crew.

       We are assuming the vehicle was moved by Mrs Z as GZ was driven HOME by the police, not dropped off at his vehicle, and the vehicle was not there by early morning.

       ==================
       Apparently police ran the licences/tags of vehicles parked in the area, in an effort to identify the victim. If they did this they would not record where the vehicles are. Just take the numbers and run them through; if it’s a local resident then it’s not a suspicious visitor, so no further interest in that vehicle.
       ==================

       All the TV crews arriving that night MUST have a picture of the street somewhere. There are many images of police milling about, walking between their own vehicles etc., if the Honda was parked nearby it surely MUST have been caught in one of these.

       • The vehicle should be a huge headache for the SPD. I went back to record his non emergency call with the dinging sound heard. I then recorded the 1st part of his re-enactment 2-27-12 when they stop at the curve by 1460 RVC (F Taafe’s) to listen to the dinging when GZ unbuckles his seat belt to point. As they proceed to the clubhouse GZ is buckling his belt the detective say’s “You’re fine” once belted, dinging stops. Also noted is a silver truck very similar to a Ridgeline parked across from his house behind several vehicles, noted it’s not in the driveway. I have a Honda so this dinging I know to be a seat belt warning with key in ignition. If George exited his vehicle with his keys there would be no dinging at all. I researched this warning ding on Honda owners complaint threads and found this dinging can also occur when no one is seated in the passenger seat just weight from a package. I think it is worth looking into.

       • sdunn, does yours ding for anything else? headlights left on? door opened while engine running? anything like that? he reckons he had headlights on pointing along the top path, but on his way back they went off on a timer, that’s why he needed the flashlight. So could turning off the engine but leaving headlights on produce dinging, too?

431. Thanks for replying, no I suspect his car has the headlight feature like mine which headlights go out after a few minutes (in an effort to give the driver safety to get into their house). My car does not ding once the keys are removed from the ignition.

     • What happens when you open your door after turning off the car with the keys still in the ignition? I would expect a ding as a reminder to grab your keys. That’s what my car does.

       • I couldn’t figure out how the door chime heard in Zimmerman’s call to police was replicated in the videos I watched. As I recall, it wasn’t lights on, keys in the ignition. Nor was it simply a chime for the door being opened.

         If anybody can figure this out, it could be huge (or insignificant). I borderline thought about going to test drive used Ridgelines but am incredibly strapped for time.

     • Seatbelt warning, as sdunn says. I have seen this myself in other brands of cars. It works on weight on the seat. If there’s weight + engine running it dings non-stop until a seatbelt is put on. (Which is why front seatbelt stalks cost $100 or so, for the electronics in them).

       So, if he undid the seatbelt it would ding until he was out and grabbed the keys just before closing the door (if he did) and running after Trayvon.

       Makes sense that way.

       I did once have a car that bleeped at me for leaving the headlights on but that was a Ford.

       Anyway whether the dinging indicates seatbelt removal or opening of door, both ways it means he was on the hunt.

       • Chime is only heard as Zimmerman opens the door with the car presumably in park. Once in park, there shouldn’t be a seat belt warning.

       • The seat belt beeping doesn’t sound like the door open chimes in the ridgeline.

         @NLME, where again, is the info on your ridgeline research? I saw a youtube video of a “honda ridgeline start” or (something similarly titled) that had the exact same sound as the police dispatch call when Zimmerman opened his door to chase after Trayvon Martin. In the youtube, the key was not in the ignition and the lights were not on, but the door open chimed anyway.

         I do think that’s something unique to the honda ridgeline and you were right in your analysis.

         • Here was the comment:

           Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Evidence and Court Proceedings

           I’m on my phone and didn’t review the name of the video I originally posted.

       • @NLME –

         Thank you. It is the same video you had originally posted. Probably why it sounded so familiar.

         • And, yes, I do have the line “Hey there YouTube” from this video permanently burned into my memory. Hahahah.

           I was pausing/playing/reviewing the door chimes in Zimmerman’s call and at the same time starting the Ridgeline’s video in preparation for a comparison far too many times. I eventually – maybe after a half dozen times – stopped listening to the Ridgeline video from the beginning and took the extra step of making sure it played at/near the :40 mark when doing the comparisons.

           Correct, I’m not a video editor. Also correct, I was probably doing a 3rd+ thing while queuing the videos. Ha!

432. One of my coworkers has a Ridgeline. So I interrupted his coffee and drug him to the parking lot this morning. Thanks, Ian!

     Ian suspected it was the powered rear (bed) window left open. Wrong noise.

     Keys removed, door open: No noise.

     Doors open, lights on: THAT NOISE!

     So GZ left his lights on when he got out of his truck.

     • I figured as much.

       Meaning, Zimmerman said his auto lights were on and then went off. As I recall but could be wrong, Zimmerman said his auto lights went off when he was talking to dispatch and trying to get an address East of the T. That’s too long for auto lights to stay on, I believe. So, another possible lie. Care to bother Ian again for confirmation? You/we owe him lunch. 🙂

       Also, if the car was pointing East with lights illuminating the path and didn’t move after the shooting, officers would have questioned the vehicle. So, I’ll guess the car was moved quickly or the lights weren’t pointing East on the path.

       I’ll try to find Zimmerman’s statement regarding the auto lights turning off. It may have been in an audio recording with Serino?

       • The auto-light-off function leaves the headlights on for 15 seconds after closing the door.

         A review of 2006-2010 Ridgeline owners manuals confirms the same function in all years.

         • Excellent, excellent research…thank you!

           One last thing — does the manual (or Ian) mention if the lights go off automatically if purposely left on? If there’s a chime warning, I’d guess no.

           • Adds: I thought I researched the Ridgeline’s manuals after identifying the chime and there was little mention of their meanings/timings. Nice find! I’d look again but will instead go to bed. Ha!

       • The lights stay on for 15 seconds by default after the key is removed per the manual, but that is flat-out incorrect. It’s more like a minute or more. Probably why Zimmerman took his flashlight. He planned to be away longer than what the vehicle lighting could provide.

         Incidentally, whether he left the lights on or off doesn’t matter since the lights would, by design, shut off automatically.

         The thing I can’t remember is if Zimmerman said he had a 2007 or a 2008. The vid I mention below (which may be the same vid you posted before) is for a 2007 honda ridgeline.

       • It was in the walkthrough video. He said the lights had gone off on his way back from “looking for a street sign” . That’s why he had to try getting his flashlight to work, so he’d not have to go back in the dark.

         This is his excuse for spending enough time up at the T for Trayvon to find and attack him.

         In one of the Serino tapes, Serino says the flashlight worked for him, just had to be banged the right way.

     • LOL! I’m tempted to make friends with ridgeline owners I see in traffic now just to get close to their dings…

       Look at this video here @0:43: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgdwL_vEpug

       It shows that crappy sick-siren noise heard on Zimmerman’s dispatch call, but the key is NOT in the ignition and the lights are NOT on. You can see the guy insert the key after the chime is heard and you can tell the lights are not on if you view the video from the beginning as he videos his walk around the vehicle.

       Maybe the chime is programmable based on owner preference. This may be same video NLME posted before.

433. It is now reported that Zimmerman wants to return to the gated community and start his Neighborhood Watch patrol again. My question is that he is court ordered not to have any contact with Martin family, directly or indirectly. GZ claims if feels right to him and they need me. As I understand it Martin Father maintains a residence there. Zimmerman however no longer lives there. Further if Zimmerman is in such fear from death threats as he states and has a team of security guards protecting him, he is sure making himself a target. GZ also referres to the Martin shooting as “single crummy day”.

     http://www.theonion.com/articles/george-zimmerman-not-going-to-let-one-bad-experien,28722/

     • Satire (I assume). Didn’t read The Onion’s story yet but if you summarized it, is The Onion usually this distasteful? There’s a dead kid involved.

       • I think the Onion was intending to emphasize Zimmerman’s nonchalant attitude about the whole murder he committed. Zimmerman is unremorseful as heard on the jailhouse conversations he had with his wife. Jon, the witness, said Zimmerman acted like it was nothing. Now, his attorney is asking people to donate that “feel they would do the same if they were in Mr. Zimmerman’s shoes” (if they kill an unarmed teen?).

         The satire was in poor taste as it potentially confused people searching for valid information.

       • The Onion has been around for a while. This is likely to portray just how detached this dude and his followers are from reality.

     • John, The Onion is all about satire. You can’t take seriously anything they write.

       • Indeed. I meant the The Onion is definitely satire. Haven’t read it in a long, long time. Since the last time I’ve read, I find it weird they’d even print Zimmerman’s name given he’s killed an unarmed kid.

     • Definitely satire! Don’t fall for it. Zimmerman is in a “safe house” to protect himself with paid-for-security from all the other imagined “suspects” he thinks are going to harm him. So ironic that his new privileged status has been achieved on the backs of those crazy enough to donate to his new glamorous lifestyle/living expenses/defense fund.

     • BTW it is satire (Not real!), but I am sure it is aimed at how light GZ and his followers really take this situation.

       • San San B is correct. It is satire, and although some may consider it in bad taste, I don’t.

         They take the statements made by people to their logical, and absolutely absurd conclusion: In this case, the right has painted Trayvon as a terrible human being, a criminal, and a guy who attempted to murder Zimmerman. They have painted Zimmerman has a hero that took this garbage off our street. He has been quite flippant about the situation, and was described as “very happy” when being released from jail this last time around. He was even taped joking about wearing his hoodie while he was in jail facing murder charges.

         When this is all done, if the Zimmerman side wins… where do you think Zimmerman will be? He’ll be a regular right wing hero getting money for speaking engagements or as a commentator on Fox News, or patrolling some other neighborhood making sure it’s free of black kids.

         Shouldn’t that picture be painted? Shouldn’t the absolute absurdity of this situation and this argument be shown for what it truly is to the great number of Americans that aren’t dirt ball racists, but also aren’t out screaming “justice for Trayvon” can see what their indifference is producing?

         This unemployed dirt bag with a criminal record and a history of violence has literally been paid over $200,000 for killing an unarmed kid.

         • Interesting take.

           I read the story and couldn’t laugh/smirk as The Onion would want but I’m sure people found it entertaining.

       • this reply is for cliff
         Talk about prejudice, where did you get that Zimmerman was an unemployed dirt bag with a history of violence from?? From his record?? well then you are truly a stupid asshole He stands up to the cops who are fucking over a drinking buddy one time and gets a phony charge one so bad that even the Florida DA dismisses it pre trial. or when a GF files a DV complaint in the process of a breakup and He files back, also non prosecuted for lack of substance. FYI the DA does not dismisss ANY DV charges that have EVEN THE SLIGHTEST substance as anyone with real world experience knows, and anyone who so much as touches a cop on the arm when he is attempting to arrest another person would do long jail time in any state AND THIS IS FLORIDA.
         This site ought to be called leftist liberal morons are us

       • this is for john B.

         Hi john. Maybe you are kind of right. Maybe we do a bit of name calling of a grown living man who shot an un-armed teenager during a scuffle that ensued after HE followed the child in the dark with his car and later with flash lights. A man who by his own admission doesn’t really have any money, or didn’t until he shot someone. A man who has told many different versions of his story. Remember this teen wasn’t doing anything wrong. Not on that night, and apart from a few indiscretions it would appear he didn’t do much wrong in his very short 17 years. But while you are here defending this grown living man, something tells me you haven’t once defended the dead child on any sites you would presumably frequent. You’ve probably done a bit of high fiving and back patting to those that make the most repugnant insulting remarks about the innocent dead guy, but how many times have you gone to town on anybody for saying Trayvon Martin is a thug, a dog that should have been chained to his back porch, that his innocent suffering family are using him for money, that they were bad parents who didn’t care? Surely worse than anything you would ever read here about the man who took a life, but I have read this disgusting drivel and more on many a “pro” Zimmerman site. On these same sites the people rally to send ‘Jorge’ more and more money every time he gets in trouble for lying. He was going to use your money and run….or at least that is what the judge said….but oh no the judge must be corrupt, he has it in for poor ‘Jorge’.

         In your post you sound like you are about to cry a little. Don’t be sad. George is still alive to tell his 37 versions of what happened that night. Maybe shed a little tear for the family of the dead kid that will never have a chance to describe his fear that night, not only while some stranger was following him by car and by foot, but in that instant when that bullet hit him, shredding his insides leaving him unable to breathe. In that split second when he realised this is it and felt his life ebb away.
         But I’m sure you don’t have time to feel any empathy for the innocent life that was taken or for the family who cared enough to fight long and hard until their voices were heard. You are too busy getting all teary eyed for George. King George, who doesn’t give a shit about you, just your money. The man who has no respect for the law himself but thinks he has the right to enforce it. The man who thinks walking home from the shops in the rain is suspicious enough to call for police back-up but doesn’t think skulking after a teen in the dark, in the rain, with a gun, is suspicious. A man who has the gall to stand on his pedestal in a guise to connect with his minions……and then ask these minions to fund his defence (and pay his previous credit debts and ticket to Cancun apparently).

         But here you are John, taking precious time out of your day to defend the guy with the gun, the guy that is still alive, the guy who’s own wife even said that after all this “you’re gonna have a good life”. Yeah because he shot someone and got paid for it after the fact. Paid for it by anyone who is flaccid enough to need a gun to feel in power, and is scared that anyone convicted of shooting someone unnecessarily could one day infringe on that right to bear arms. Paid for by anyone who is a racist and can hide behind self defence/stand your ground/Jorge isn’t white, as an excuse to shoot a black kid. Nooooooo they aren’t racist but I assure you every pro-zimmerman site is chock full of racist hate, crime stats, talk of ‘they’ and of imminent riots, degrading comments about blacks and their agendas and anyone associated, constant accusations of reverse racism and the assertation that every black is a gang member and one single tweet is evidence enough of an assault that obviously didn’t happen. Blatant racism so very effectively (yes, sarcasm) hidden by the very grown up defence of, “no YOU’RE racist”. I AM SICK OF IT.

         So, in the nicest possible way John, Go Fuck Yourself.

         • I love you Jo!!!!!!

         • Jo in the nicest possible way same to you. seriously this child as you call him was a dope seller and a seventeen year old felon either guilty of being a fence ( or are you so naive that you really think he ” found” that stolen jewellery) or a burglar (( or do you think the big screw driver he was carrying was just so he could tighten any loose screws he might encounter?? ) Just what planet do you live on??? Zimmerman was appointed by the residents as the neighborhood watch leader. period. as such he had every right to follow a young male he did not recognize IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS through the PRIVATE COMPOUND. TO SEE WHAT HE WAS UP TO.
           That is what your lot will never admit to that neighbors have a right to observe people wandering late at night in their neighborhood to prevent crime. And you totally blow off the fact that Zimmerman aided the cops in two previous arrests of burglars, not suspected burglars but ones caught with the swag.
           You go on and on about Travvon , yet you must know that if Trayvon had not jumped Zimmerman He would still be alive. and you keep on with BS about how Trayvon was not injured except you ignore the police evidence of his busted up knuckles that he got while pounding on Zimmermans face.
           You are freaking incredible especially with your stupid accusations of racism against me.You know nothing about me FYI I am a strong supporter of both Troy Davis’s and Mumias claim to innocence. But only a fool which is the proper description of all you people who spout that “poor innocent child” crap, would believe that Zimmerman jumped Martin. or that Martin was not a dope peddling thief or fence take your
           pick. ER who got belligerent because he resented being followed.

           • “…as such he had every right to follow a young male he did not recognize IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS through the PRIVATE COMPOUND. TO SEE WHAT HE WAS UP TO. That is what your lot will never admit to that neighbors have a right to observe people wandering late at night in their neighborhood to prevent crime.”

             Considering that the encounter between Zimmerman and Martin occurred shortly after 7 in the evening, either you’re talking about someone else, which makes you off-topic, or you’re too ill-informed or un-informed for anything you have to say on the matter of the death of Trayvon Martin to be taken seriously.

             unitron

             • Well said unitron.

             • At this point I’m thinking john B should be given every last little bit of the attention which he deserves.

               unitron

       • BRAVO, Jo.

         Seconded.

         Bye Bye John you said you were going weeks ago.

         Don’t let the door smack you on the ass on the way out.

         • Hey pussy I mean aussie stupid one liners are par for the course for internet trolls especially when they cannot answer the points raised one TM was either a burglar or a fence two he was a punk with an attitude who felt entitled to jump someone whom he felt was “dissing” him. Poetic justice would be you getting your ass kicked by one of the ” gangstas ” you defend. From your style of writing and your attitude I can deduce that you know nothing about the real mean streets. You and most of these idiots who write on this blog romanticize the Black underclass and the ” playa” lifestyle. In reality Criminal thuggery is both banal and vicious. When you get a little older you may possibly develop enough perception to understand this and as long as I want I will continue to remind you and your ilk of just exactly what kind of people you are. Have a nice day. J

         • Hey racist douchebag, I mean John B.

           I’m white, and I live in Philadelphia. I’m a 30 year old father and a military veteran. I live in the “mean streets” you speak of, and they’re not that mean. Maybe if you weren’t too scared to travel beyond the confines of your trailer park you’d realize black people aren’t inherently scary or criminal. They’re just normal people with a little extra melanin in their skin.

           Trayvon Martin was a suburban kid. There is no evidence that he was either a fence or a burglar, as none of the jewelry he had were reported stolen. Regardless, last I checked, burglary was not a capital offense. As has also been pointed out, there is no evidence that he attacked Zimmerman, and he has no record of fighting or jumping anyone else in his 17 year history. Are you arguing that this is the first time in his 17 years anyone ever “dissed” him? Also, it’s funny you put “dissing” in quotes, since Trayvon never said Zimmerman was dissing him, as your use of quotations would imply. Last I checked, dead kids don’t talk much, so you putting words in his dead lips is morbid and inappropriate.

           Of course, Zimmerman has a long history of violence, which has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, and yet you continually neglect to take this into consideration. You instead invent a past and a personality of Trayvon, despite no personal knowledge of this child, nor any evidence to support your description.

           So stop talking like you’re tough and like you know the mean streets. You’re nothing but a coward that talks tough on the internet, which is amusing since even your “tough” talk involves you fearing an unarmed 17 year old kid that weighs a buck fifty. Real tough guys don’t need guns to defend themselves against unarmed teenagers.

           P.S. I’ve lived in 6 different states and a foreign country. I’ve lived in black neighborhoods, white neighborhoods, the suburbs, the country, and the city. I’ve been to bars where I was the only white guy, and I have been to bars where I was the only guy that didn’t vote for George Bush. Guess where I had the most trouble?
           That’s right, the redneck bars. I never once ended up in a fight at the black bar. I never once feared for my life or anything else. But at the redneck bars, it was damn near impossible to leave those shit holes without a fight. And not once did any of you rednecks ever try to go toe to toe with me… nope… you always had to come at me with 2 or 3 of your friends. Because in the end, you all talk tough, but the whole damn lot of you are nothing but a bunch of cowards. (To be clear, the previous statement is not to imply all white people nor all people from the country are a bunch of racist cowards. It is merely stating that those inbred rednecks that talk tough and rail against the thuggish blacks are themselves nothing but a bunch of racist cowards and thugs themselves.)

         • this one is for cliff
           Jeeze I am all impressed
           first I am more than twice your age
           second your story and your so called life history is bullshit from one end to the other especially the part about how in red neck bars you only had fights where two or more came at you because dickhead, people don’t go trolling in different types of Bars They choose one type that suits them so dickhead no asshole who hates rednecks would go to redneck bars just to start fights unless he was mentally defective, Is that you?? and just prey tell what were the names of and in what cites were these alleged red neck bars where you say you put on your “good guy” hero act??

           I spent my late teens and some of my twenties before your mama made the mistake of not aborting you, in Detroit I hung out with rock and Jazz musicians mostly both white and black and also some of the more intelligent political crowd
           Third I caught a bullet on those mean streets from a street thug in 67 this one happened to be a white street thug but I know two guys that were gunned down by black ones. The Black ones broke into a house I used to live in to rob the people there for money , for smack I guess. Mox nix they pistol whipped then wacked them The name of the street Is Virginia Park The year was 69 All the readers can check on it if any of you want because unlike this Cliff, this dickhead lying asshole wannabe my story is not Bullshit
           ffith dickhead I figured out that both the Republican and the Democratic Parties are choc a bloc full of thieves hustlers and liars. and no I never voted for either Bush nor Clinton and nope not the Chigago machine boy Obama either
           sixth Cliff you shit for brains if you’re so tough put up your address here and if you’re close or when i get in your neighbor hood ( and mr six state dickhead I have visited 48 states and worked, as in held jobs that payed a regular paycheck in 8 of them) i’ll pay you a visit I bet at 63 I can still flatten your lying ass. It certainly will be a pleasure to try. JB

           • @NLME: That’s it… You have my vote to remove this poster!
             (be sure to copy his ip addy so he can’t come back easily).

         • John B.,

           You’re an illiterate moron, and as such, I was unable to reading your incoherent babble. Have you heard of a period? It’s how those of us educated folk denote the end of a sentence. You should try it. Although I realize I can’t expect too much from you, since you’re unable to perform the simple function of copying and pasting a word. My name is clearly “Clif.”

           As for my history being “bullshit” and people “only going to one type of bar,” huh? Really? This is exactly why I know you’re a redneck racist moron. You’re 60 years old and you find one thing you like and just continue ordering or doing that forever? And all your friends either like the exact same bar as you or are forced to go to the bar of your choosing because you refuse to ever try anything different?

           Well the rest of us don’t just go to one type of bar, or one type of place, or order the exact same thing off the menu each time we go out to eat. We have friends from various walks of life, travel the world, and try different things in different places.

           As to “looking for a fight and to be a hero,” see what I’m talking about? You’re again defining people and situations to match your preconceived notions. Since I disagree with you, there’s no chance that someone could have started a fight with me. I must have attacked them!

           You may be twice my age, but age does not denote wisdom. You’re a feeble little child with the intellect of a baboon.

           I cannot respond to the rest of your incoherent ramblings as your inability to form a sentence and need to reinvent my history to meet your ideals made it too intolerable to read.

           • clif the troll
             You ever hear of three strikes and you are out??
             no I did not proof read nor bother to punctuate. A lying asshole like you isn’t worth the trouble.
             I do not care if you spell your name with one f two or twenty you are still a lying asshole.
             nor do I care where your dad got his law degree if in fact your dad did do that
             Just in case the readership of this little Blog did not get how I outed Clifs Walter Mitty fantasy in his tale of the thirty year old White army vet who goes to red neck bars and triumphs over the big bad racists there really ain’t no such a thing as a quote “Red Neck bar” out side of the bad Hollywood movies that populate Clifs dreams.
             there are Black club type bars. Mixed dancing bars, neighborhood bars, that reflect the various types of locals and there are what I call hotel type bars that cater to business people, there are also Biker bars where I can assure you wimps like Clif would not show his face, In the south and the west there are country music bars, but their are no bars where drunken white men in baseball caps routinely spout racist drivel outside of the movies. That is why Cliffffffff cannot give names places and dates for his fantasies
             that information can be checked and not only does Clif have no names and dates If he were to take the trouble to try and get this data there are just too many ways he could get tripped up.,
             Oh what a tangled web we weave when carelessly we practice to deceive

             FYI Clif in the old days much of Pontiac was an all white suburb If your Dad did Go to WSU before 1970 he was part of a virtually all white school located in the middle of a majority Black City. WSU area had little Crime before the Riots Or by Pontiac do you mean Elizabeth Lake Bloomfield Hills or Waterford?
             The riots Clif were something else maybe you heard about the black days in July
             I lived it..
             The thing that really gets me is if You are or were a real Detroiter you could not possibly be this blase about black crime. You would know what has happened in the last 50 years to the former Motor city and not think that by sniping about someone’s punctuation you could possibly change the fact that that city has been destroyed by black criminals.
             That is the trouble with trolls and the entire internet. Never Never land gets an equal billing with hard reality..
             Oh Clif please give us more tales of your derring do with the big bad racists.
             just one thing you cowardly bastard, please include your address

         • typo: to finish reading.

           Also: Did you really just use the line “I used to hangout with some black people?” Wow… you don’t even pretend they were your friends. That’s a new low. Most people that try to claim they’re not racist insist they have black friends. You’re so blatantly racist the best you can do is say you hung out with some black people way back in the day. AMAZING

         • P.P.S.
           My dad grew up in Pontiac and got his law degree from Wayne State University. He managed to grow up in that area and live his entire life there without ever being shot. Damn near everyone else that grew up in the Detroit area also managed to live their lives free of bullets. Did you ever consider you got shot because you’re an ass hole and no one likes you?

         • hey Clif,

           You’ve personally told your own story, but he knows better. So easy for him to know better about Trayvon who can’t even try to contradict him.

           At 63 there’s no hope for him, except perhaps the peaceful release of Alzheimer’s.

           you know how they put up storm shutters or boards on windows before a hurricane?

           In my country of origin (I’m an immigrant here) we say a person like this has “a boarded up head”. Absolutely no light gets inside, you can’t see out, and no amount of pounding gets you in.

         • aussie,

           You are correct.

           John,
           A) I said Pontiac. Had I meant Bloomfield Hills, Waterford, Clarkston, or any of the other surrounding white suburbs, I would have said the name of that town.
           B) Motor city has been “destroyed” by the lack of the “motor” part of the city. Losing the industry that is the lifeblood of your town goes a long way toward killing the entire town.
           C) You should look up the definition of troll. I’m posting on a website of like minded people expressing my views on a topic of mutual interest. You’re starting fights with everyone on that website, all of whom you disagree with. Which one of us is the troll here?
           D) You should look up the definition. You’ve volunteered almost no personal information, but are demanding others supply you their personal information. You’re also making implicit threats via the internet to people who live hundreds of miles away using a relatively anonymous screen name. Who is the coward here?
           E) And of course… my story doesn’t meet up with the world as you see it, so I must be a liar. Well I don’t need to prove myself to you. I will tell you that the person in charge of this site knows my email address. My email address is not an anonymous email address and can easily be linked to my full name. My full name is quite unique and can easily be used to do a basic search on the internet, give the addresses for my homes, the universities I’ve attended, the high school I attended, and plenty more. So lying about those things would be pretty stupid since it’d be so easy to prove I was lying.

           • Talk about talking about violence. it is you who put up the BS about how you’re a tough guy and how you roam “Red Neck bars” fighting “racists” and how anyone who disagrees with all the assholes on this site must be (a) a coward or (b) a moron. I am well aware that many on this site are as you put it ” like minded”. as am am well aware that most of you want to see Zimmerman put away for life. and Yes i disagree. As for a troll basically an internet troll is a lying asshole who mis-categorizes himself and others. That fits a lot of you in spades, and no it was not the auto industries moving out that killed Detroit in was the vast increase in robberies assaults drug dealings and above all arson and Murder that turned the city where I was born into a clone of Beirut. Would you care to guess the ethnicity of over 95 percent of all the perpetrators of this mayhem?? I will give you a really big clue. They weren’t Chinese.

             Now that is not PC you are not supposed to say in public that the Black Criminals turned Detroit into the hellhole it is today because then legions of know nothing self righteous types like yourself will scream “Racism”.
             I don’t give a rats ass about the sensitivities of liberal assholes who automatically assume any critic must be intellectually inferior . FYI I was a Michigan math finalist in the state scholarship races one of three from my High school class of almost 1000. for a living i worked in the silicon valley designing peripheral system for Linacs. Your little groups self deluding assurances that anyone who vigorously disagrees with them must be mentally inferior are laughable. I’ll match my SAT scores with yours anyday.
             But I am also an Ironworkers kid who knows how things went down on the street. FYi further info and to reveal some of the personal details you say I am hiding when I was shot by a white street punk it was because he and another one were stomping some guy in front of the Apartment where I was staying just south of Wayne State. I walked up to him and told him to lay off. He pulled a piece said “you see this” and blew out my right kidney. So you could say that I have a better appreciation of street violence than most.
             And a better BS detector and a hell of a lot more experience that you. NO i DON’T LIKE YOU YOU ARE A POSEUR WHO IMPLIED I AM A COWARD YET YOU WON’T BACK UP YOUR BS BY BEING MAN ENOUGH TO CONFRONT ME IN PERSON

             And to me, as to anyone with even half a brain, that says it all

         • john B,

           I’m again going to choose against reading your diatribe. It’s funny you keep writing so much when I keep telling you I don’t bother reading it. I’ll respond to the few sentences I read:

           I did not imply you were a coward. I straight out called you a coward.

           I’m not going to drive 800 miles to fight a 63 year old man. That seems like an absolutely ludicrous idea, and would also be violating the law. The rest of us grown ups choose to settle our differences with words, and leave the physical stuff to the police. Defending yourself against someone that starts a fight with you is completely legal and acceptable. Starting a physical fight with someone because you don’t like what they say or do is childish and against the law.

           Your claim is that Trayvon wanted to beat Zimmerman’s ass because Zimmerman “dissed” him, and due to this, Zimmerman was legally ok to kill Trayvon. You’re now upset that I “dissed” you, and you are threatening to beat my ass. You have now let your temper and your pride spin you completely out of control. You have demonstrated yourself to be the exact type of “thug” that you have been railing against on this website.

           Congratulations. You have proven everyone on this website (except yourself) correct.

434. Checked the automatic headlight off timer on a Honda Ridgeline this morning. The headlights went off in 15 seconds. EXACTLY.

     As for that chime being on in the video that NLME discovered . . .

     . . . the headlights were left on. Check the light at the 10 o’clock position on the edge of the rotary knob.

435. I am sure that many of us are carefully listen is news about the most recent evidence released. I know I have said this before and some have discounted it but I will again say it. How much of GZ ADHD and the medication play into this. GZ ex girl friend reports that GZ hit her for chewing gum, she also relates that in an argrument between GZ and his mother (who reportedly abused GZ in childhood) GZ turned off the electricity in her house and then locked the circut box, leaving GZ mother without power, this was apparently GZ way of getting even with his mother. GZ ex girlfriend also belived GZ behavior was related to the medication GZ was taken.

     Again I state symptoms of Adult Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder include: easily bored, impatient, intolerant to frustration, easily irritated, impulsive, snap decisions, irresponsible behaviors, loses temper easily and angers quickly. GZ is reportedly taken Addeall.
     Side effects of Adderall include restlessness, hyperactivity, increased libido, irritability, aggression, psychosomatic disorders, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity, psychomotor agitation, grandiosity and amphetamine psychosis.

     Now does any of the above sound like some of the behavior GZ has exhibited?

     • Don’t forget — the note from Zimmerman’s doctors visit said he previously had an allergic reaction (mood swings) to an ADD medicine called Vyvanse. It’s safe to say Zimmerman definitely had an allergic reaction to Adderall on the night of Trayvon’s murder.

     • talk about castles made of air. all of these arm chair psyhcologists diagnosing Zimmerman because he like doing the neighborhood watch and wanted to be a cop.
       for sure it is not every one who will do neighborhood watch. I know I am not the type. I also know that when in our neighborhood we had more of the nosy type we had a lot less of a crime problem. there was this guy a few years back who installed cameras that could sweep the whole street and cross checked police reports which showed that some low lifes were suspected of selling dope, he recruited a lot of the neighborhood association to watch the comings and goings. He was also a pain in the ass reporting to the cops when he thought we had too much trash or inoperative cars. But hey give the devil his due when he lived here we had almost no burglaries on the this part of the hill.
       Zimmerman like him or hate him caught actual burglars and by his nosy proactive presence prevented crime.
       If you have ever been hit by burglars and suffered a fair size loss you might feel differently about guys like George, but no you’re all busy making up fairy tales about how a 5 foot eight man in his late twenties jumping a seventeen year old 6 foot one black high school jock.

       • Neat little thing John:

         Hand to hand combat is not basketball. Height is largely irrelevant. This is why boxing separates people by weight and not by height. At 185 pounds, Zimmerman was in the cruiserweight category. At 150 pounds, Trayvon was in the super welterweight category. The two are separated by 4 weight classes and would not be able to legally box because ZIMMERMAN would be considered to have too large an advantage.

         And as for age, since when is 27 old? The current heavyweight champions are 41, 36, and 32. All older than Zimmerman. In all of boxing history in all the different weight classes, there has only been 1 champion that was under the age of 18. Why? Because your muscles aren’t fully developed at 17.

         So put away your stupid ass scenarios where the elderly gnome was attacked by the athletic giant. Your misleading adjectives aren’t fooling anyone here.

         Zimmerman prevented exactly 0 burglaries and killed 1 unarmed kid that wasn’t burglarizing anyone. Even if that weren’t the case, we don’t have a death penalty for burglary and I don’t think anyone here wants to institute one. “Guys like Zimmerman” are paranoid creeps with delusions of grandeur. All they do is make us fearful when our kids go out for a walk. We’d rather allow the real police to actually catch criminals and prevent crime than have them wasting time chasing down 50+ dead end leads from murdering psychopaths like Zimmerman.

         P.S. I’m proud you started using periods again. It makes your inane ramblings almost readable.

         • sorry clif i wasn’t responding to you like the troll you are you had to come back into someone else’s conversation. Actually Clif yes he probably prevented a lot of burglaries and two of the people he ID to the cops were later caught with Items stolen from the compound.
           ‘ You know the lack of logic of your group is astounding, according to you no one has any right to move through their own neighborhood on public or their own public or private property to view anyone they may deem suspicious, Because that might upset the one being viewed. FYI if that was so then by your logic we all must stare at the ground 24 7 because if we look at some one too long we may make him or her uncomfortable.. The absurdity of your concept is so extreme that there is no arguing with anyone who could even advance such an idea also according to you the private community had no right to make Zimmerman the neighborhood watch captain, or by extension no neighborhood association has a right to form there own neighborhood watch.
           Finally you can only make your absurd scenario work by insisting that Zimmerman jumped on and assaulted this black teen, Yeah right. every day white men jump on black teens. It’s in the news everywhere. Go live in your fantasy world where you go into “redneck bars” and kick ass every week Clifster.
           Ps I hope you get burglarized at least once a year because if anyone on THIS planet deserves it, that person is surely you.
           Also Cliff what you know about hand to hand combat could be written on a match book in grease pencil. Finally Cliff I am not asking for you to drive to see me just for your address I’ll be glad to save you the drive, and I periodically get to Phoenix, Salt Lake or the Portland area ( i guess from your 800 miles that one of these is your home lair) and yes Clif calling someone a coward from the safety of your chair and then refusing to meet him in person, is probably the best definition of cowardice anyone can think of.
           And I think I have made my point even with the people in this group.

436. Vyvanse is another in the amphetamine family, side effects are almost the same, confusion, strange behavior, agitation, or restlessness, hallucinations (seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not really there), uncontrolled movements of the head, neck, mouth, arms, or legs (known as tics). Makes me wonder about his injuries, they were very minior. I am in California, GZ would not be allowed to purchase a firearm let alone a conceal weapons permit. My understanding is Florida hands out permits like it was Halloween candy. If GZ was having a psychoic eposido when he encountered TM there is no way GZ can claim self-defense or even SYG, I have had to deal with people who are psychotic, it takes minium 6 people to restrain them, they do not feel pain, and if they target someone, they will do everything to kill them. And there are those that complain about TM having marihuna….

     • It came on sub-conciously, but I’ve been adding GZ’s medications in my descriptions to curious folks of what happened that fateful night. Overuse, withdrawal, alcohol, mixing, SOMETHING was off with GZ that night.

       If only GZ HAD been smoking a doob instead . . .

       • Zimmerman HAD A TIP OFF, I am sure. From the bank video evidence:

         Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 2nd Evidence Dump Released

         • Aussie,
           do you have the 7-11 address.

         • Here you go Loree
           

           • Thanks!

     • If Zimmerman was having any of those medical side effects while he was reporting Trayvon’s assumed suspicious activity, stalking and finally killing him, he certainly didn’t appear to have any of those symptoms after he was taken into custody and questioned at SPD.

       • @ Caroline First of all, I never said GZ was experience all the symptoms and side effects. I said GZ admited in the video he had ADHA and was taking medication. The medications are reported on the Doctors report that is posted O’Hara website. I also noted Addreall was prescribed on 2/13/2012, I stated known side effects of the medications that have been reported. It also is noted that Det. Serino believed GZ was acting out some cop fantasy story.

         • John, we are cool. I do understand those type drugs can have negative though rare side effects in some cases. I felt compelled to mention he didn’t show any of those gross side effects of the drugs after the fact when interviewed at SPD that same night (and the following day during his reenactment). I’m sure we can agree one can have some of those behaviors without being ADHD or taking certain drugs. As for Serino’s comment of Zimmerman acting out some cop fantasy, well to me it is interpreted as not a result of any drug reaction but a problem with his esteem.

437. As some of you may know, Zimmerman and his lawyer want Judge Lester to be removed because of biased. This is based on the Judge new bond order, statements in the order like Zimmerman flanting the court order and such. In my view, Zimmerman as the Judge noted attempted to manipulate the system. If you look at much of Zimmerman reported history with people, yes he is a manipulator, trying to get his own way. And when he doesn’t, he strikes back. This is very ADHA behavior.

     http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-case-defense-asks-for-kenneth-r-lester-jr-to-step-down

     • No need to blame ADHD for that, John.

       It s normal standard behaviour for ALL manipulators: try wheedling and sweet-talking first, then threats and anger if that fails. Maybe then apologise for that, using the apology to guilt the other party into doing what was wanted as a way of showing forgiveness. It’s not ADHD behaviour, it’s sociopath behaviour.

       • Besides which, afaik, if the prejudice arises from the evidence, then it’s allowed, because that’s what evidence is supposed to do, prejudice the viewers. Neither the judge nor the prosecutor created this evidence, GZ and the defense did. If they get another judge, that judge will learn of it and become prejudiced too, and so will any jury who hears it.

         As for whether it is germane to the case and probative, well, it shows that GZ can tell bold falsehoods without breaking a sweat. It shows that he has good control and a great poker face, such that his body language and other “tells” can’t be expected to give away when he’s lying! It demonstrates that one has to rely on the evidence rather than put any faith in GZ words.

         So, jurors won’t be put in the position of saying in the jury room: “Well GZ says this, so we can just forget about that!”

438. @aussie I disagree, GZ is diagnosis with ADHA, there is an overlap with what you have call sociopathic behavior. I do admit I have not seen the full diagnosis either, so what the Axis II is is not known.

     • I’m actually getting angry at this idiotic and bigoted rhetoric by some of you about ADHD. You don’t even know the acronym, and yet you’re acting as if you have some sort of expertise on it. John, you’re completely clueless.

       4% of the adult population have ADHD. These people are not a bunch of violent, murdering, manipulative criminals. They simply have varying degrees of not being able to pay attention or stay calm as the rest of the population. Most act just like normal people with a combination of drugs and therapy.

       Stop demonizing these people or these drugs that help a great number of them, and realize that some percentage of people suck. Some percentage of people are racists. Some percentage of people are willing to murder to get their way. There is often no medical reason for this; they’re just shitty people.

439. @Clif, FYI I have worked with ADHD patients, that is Attention-Deficit Disorder, it effects some 1.5 million Americans. I have never said all of these are criminals, I have said the GZ has stated he has the disorder. It seems you are not aware of all the symptoms, that include impatient, intolerant to frustration, easily irritated, impulsive, snap decisions, irresponsible behaviors loses temper easily and angers quickly these are listed in the DSM5. As to medications, I have no problem with people taking medications, however in treatment there are some medications that must be monitored closely and have serious side effects, they are also very addictive. Adderall is a brand name of amphetamine, Adderall can help but it can be addictive as with other amphetamene, Adderall is currently abused by many groups including college students, there are now centers that specialize in treatment for Adderall.

     http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/adderall-psychosis-suicide-college-students-abuse-study-drug/story?id=12066619

     http://www.addictionstreatment.org/adderall-addiction-treatment.html

     Then there is Tamazepam, agitation, grandiosity, increased libido, irritability, aggression and restlessness. It is abused.

     Now do I believe that all those suffering from ADHD are criminals, racist etc, no. GZ has addmitted to having ADHD and is taking medications with very serious side effects. How all this played into his behavior I think should be explored. is there a collerlation between drugs and crime yes. Do I think this is an excuse for people to commet crime, no.

     And clif I would say your the one who is clueless.

     • We have yet to see a medical report about his diagnosis (the date it was made would interest me) and we have zero evidence that he was in fact actually taking the prescribed medications, or had taken them on the day in question.

       Furthermore the side-effects listed for drugs are possible side-effects, not guaranteed ones. In many cases only a miniscule percentage of users have reported a specific effect. So reading the list is not evidence that a user of the drug had those side-effect symptoms.

       I am sure that in due course we will see reports from GZ’s doctor and psychologist. Until then we can comment on his publicly observable behaviour but don’t need to speculate on possible medical causes.

       Currently we need to work out HOW he did it, not why.

     • John W.,

       It is spelled “you’re.” When calling someone clueless, it’s always good to properly spell basic words.

       As to Adderall and the symptoms of ADHD, I am well versed on both thank you. College students that abuse Adderall are primarily using to to stay awake and study harder. Why you mention that people abuse Adderall is a complete mystery, since the discussion is about whether or not Adderall would make someone exceptionally violent and therefore make them a danger to other people. Sedatives are abused quite a bit in this country, does that mean they too are linked to violent crimes?

       As to the actual symptoms of ADHD, they vary heavily on a case to case basis just like with any other medical condition. For most people they involve talking out of turn, not paying attention, or fidgeting.

       Despite what you may have convinced yourself, ADHD is not considered a mental illness that would prevent you from owning a gun. Taking Adderall is not considered to cause enough of an alteration in you mental state to prevent you from owning a gun. This is not my opinion, THIS IS LAW.

       You can do an easy google search and find tons of gun forums that go through what specifically the courts have interpreted as a mental illness that would disallow gun ownership.

       You can also ask yourself a very simple question: If ADHD or Adderall prevented someone from legally owning a gun or having a CCW, why hasn’t the prosecutor made mention of it in the hundreds and possibly thousands of pages she has provided in the various media dumps?

       I have never once claimed that ADHD doesn’t have those symptoms. I have never once claimed that Adderall has 0 side effects. I have simply pointed out that:
       A) There are millions of people with ADHD in this country, and the VAST MAJORITY do not shoot anyone, or get in any other major legal trouble.
       B) There are millions of people taking Adderall, and the vast majority do not shoot anyone, or get in any other major legal trouble.
       C) No state has ever prosecuted anyone for illegal possession of a handgun nor lying on their application due to their ADHD diagnosis or legal consumption of Adderall. I am personally unaware of anyone ever being denied a permit or failing the background check for either of these reasons, and would be quite shocked if you could actually find a single case of this occurring.
       D) If you were correct, all you would have to do is find a Judge’s decision where he classifies ADHD as a mental illness that prevents gun ownership, or find a case where someone was prosecuted for illegal possession due to this diagnosis. I have yet to see you post either of these.

       • When I found this place I thought that here was an open forum to exchange ideas, I have found out that I am very wrong, instead it is run by narrow minded “wanna be” with over inflated egos. They think they are right and everyone else is wrong. So go screw yourselves..

         • “When I found this place I thought that here was an open forum to exchange ideas, I have found out that I am very wrong, instead it is run by narrow minded “wanna be” with over inflated egos. They think they are right and everyone else is wrong. So go screw yourselves..”

           Can we just screw each other instead?

           unitron

       • This blog is run by NLME. The rest of us are just basic posters like yourself.

         I have had multiple pleasant and constructive exchanges with people on this site. We didn’t always agree with one another, but we listened to one another and respected the fact based arguments that one another brought forward.

         I have had negative interactions with yourself and the other John. This is not due to my enormous ego or myself being closed minded. It is due to a pattern that both of you showed towards discrimination of a certain group of people regardless of what facts were presented to you.
         The other John obviously hates black people and doesn’t even try to hide it.
         You keep asserting people with ADHD are threats to society at large and should have significant extra restrictions placed on their liberty that the rest of America does not have to endure.
         I disagreed with you, and you listed the symptoms and side effects from ADHD and the medication to treat it. (You did all this while continually referring to it as ADHA… which is the incorrect acronym.) I showed that these same side effects were listed for things as simple and common as birth control.

         I simply asked for proof that ADHD people were treated differently under the current law, or that ADHD people by and large present a danger to society at large.

         Instead of simply providing some form of evidence for the case you have asserted over and over…. you respond with a childish rant about out of control egos and finish with the oh so mature, “go screw yourselves.”

         If you want to have an adult discussion with back and forth involving facts, evidence, and even opposing viewpoints… Many people on this site are more than willing to have that conversation. However, you can’t simply keep stating the same thing over and over again with absolutely no proof and expect everyone else to simply take you at your word and accept it as fact. That is the exact type of behavior you’re accusing ADHD people of suffering from.

440. How? meaning what? the weapon is known, the area is known. granted there is a exactly what route was taken is not really known. There was a confirnation. So what was the motive, as Serino believed GZ was acting out some cop wanna be story. Serino stated GZ story sounded like some police movie. GZ was frustrated by the crime in his area. GZ in calls to the police about supposed criminals in the area admited he was afraid of them. Yet on that night, GZ did make contact with TM thinking he was involved in some crime, which TM was not. GZ ignored the advise of the Dispather not to follow TM. Was GZ acting on anger, irritated make a impulsive, irresponsible decision to follow TM and confront him?

441. @Nlme,
     I am not getting comments via email. Whats up?

442. Disregard, I got the confirmation email finally

443. I watched the Hannity interview. Mouth dropped open when GZ said it was God’s will and he wouldn’t change anything. Commercial break. After the break he back peddles as he always does and tries to smooth that part of what he said over. Why? Cause his attorney sitting next to him probably asked him if he was crazy or something during the break. Long story short, GZ is portraying himself as the victim, TM the villain. What GZs thick little head doesn’t seem to get is TM went between the buildings. Next thing here comes GZ out of his car and right were TM had gone. Of course TM thought he was being followed. GZ never identified himself. GZ brought this on by assuming too much. Geez, you don’t look or act the way GZ thinks you should and you end up dead. Seems prejudiced to me.

     • The prosecution might subpoena Fox for the whole tape, including the bits we didn’t get shown. That should be interesting!

444. Most of the dicussion about the Hannity interview is on the latest blog

     Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman 2nd Evidence Dump Released