Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case

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Of course, the removal of Judge Lester won’t matter since no judge that will be appointed lives under a rock…

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/29/2975210/appeal-court-removes-judge-in.html

http://www.5dca.org/Clerk/George%20Zimmerman%2012-3198/5D12-3198.op.pdf

Thank you, CommonSenseForChange and willisnewton.

I’ve been MIA for a bit. I plan to play some catch up this weekend including publishing a posting that will note frequently referenced sites as of late. No, this won’t be anywhere near as useful as the previously mentioned BccList.com evidence dump.

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

1,284 thoughts on “Appeal Court Removes Judge Lester in George Zimmerman Case”

  1. I like the new interior design around here! Nice and cozy! Hello All! 🙂

    I think GZ is going to regret this move. It went from bad to worse, IMO. The child advocate maybe or the Chief Justice. A classic case of nose being dissected to spite the judge. Oh well.

    • Hey, princss6. Always good to see you ’round here!! 🙂

      I think this was a bad move, too, but I can foresee him attempting to kick his 3rd Judge off. If he gets Judge Nelson (same Judge I believe is on his wife’s case) then will he complain about a conflict of interest? Keep shopping, George.

    • I’ve been wondering how ANY judge will react to GZ’s false testimony to investigators. Perhaps harshly as when he lied about passport and money in court. Will he get away with that on the stand? Does the judge (and MOM) just let him ramble on about how he didn’t know how old Trayvon was and whether he thought Trayvon had a gun and that he was scared of Trayvon? when we know from his NEN call, later testimony, and probably from person phone calls that none of that is true.

      Let the jury decide.

      • What I’m surprised about this decision to let the judge go was that it was based on the “well-deserved tongue lashing” that Judge Lester made about lies from GZ and company regarding the money and bond issue, lies that the O’Mara conceded to and made really no excuse for except that GZ was a *ahem* scared 28-year-old. The judge made NO remarks about what he thought of GZ’s lies about the murder case itself.

        Just as well though. They’ll be no more excuses for GZ to cry “Unfair! everybody hates me and the judge was mean to me!”

        • MOM closing the 2nd bond hearing: “And yes – He didn’t tell the truth about the money.”
          That’s all that matters. Judge shopping is over now. I don’t expect them to get a 4th judge if their story goes south. I just hope that the new judge won’t be friendly to the point of letting George free after a Self-Defense hearing.

    • It’s almost 11 pm PDT, and a few minutes ago I read the most recent comments on the Zimmerman case on the Huffington Post. A few are so full of lies, it makes me want to scream. All kinds of accusations against Trayvon that are totally untrue. Any of you registered commenters over there? If so, please respond with the accurate information to these horrible people.

      • I find that it’s not worth commenting at media pages, especially in response to the “horrible people”. People who are willing to believe such comments would not be willing to accept “accurate information” anyway. Besides, those comments get buried very quickly in the sheer volume of nonsensical postings.

        • AMEN!! I saw in my email this morning a wonderful gift!!! I have been banned from The Orlando Sentinel!!! (Little end zone dance..clicking of heels) I am free at last free at last!!!!!!!! It is a cesspool and I tried hard to get voted off the Zimmerman Slime Boat!!! On a more relevant note….I went back into the audio of Serino/Singleton/GZ interview of 2-29-12 and always hear more each time but it’s so devastatingly hard to listen to the Weasel’s boring lengthy detailed explanations reverse explain shove foot up his own ass instead of mouth ramblings I must take it slow as to not have MY head EXPLODE!! I love part 3 when they barrage him with his NEN call and stop the tape and Singleton says “”You were following him now for how long?” (drum roll) With foot firmly up his ass GZ replies “On foot”? ……It just gets better and better. But thank you for allowing me to rant with joy and glee, Freckles I find no productive reason to comment on these media message boards I have been sucked into that black hole for a month until I actively started going one on one with the various freaks, I advise you do not engage them it leads nowhere at all. It’s like we are banging our own heads against that sidewalk no useful reason whatsoever. I felt a need to constantly correct them and all they come back with is what an angry monkey in a zoo throws at you in annoyance. I see a beautiful day hopefully in the not so distant future when I can go there to amuse myself for 5 minutes to see their rantings are only the very few with multiple user names beating themselves to death with their drivel!!! It only fuels the lunatics if you pay attention to them. Stay in the light!!!! Aloha all!!

      • @freckles –

        I, personally, have abandoned Huffington Post for the most part until they pay their interns, their mods and their writers. Huffington Post is not a blog.

        When I interned, I got paid!

        Nothing wrong, imo, with popularity of a blog, but when Arianna Huffington “hired” professional writers to create content for her site and then stiffed them with her “American labor is free” bull and they are privileged to receive “exposure” (connections), I had a problem with that.

        This is all completely O/T, but that’s why I sought out “small business” type blogs versus corrupt “big businesses” posing as blogs.

        You post as JusticeQuest.net, right. I’ve seen your posts either there or on realitychatters (before the format changes). I can’t post at some of the places I read (because some don’t allow non-website owners).

        When the chit gets out of hand, though, I’ll be making use of my ability to spread the word at HP and Talk Left again. Right now, HP and Talk Left are still catching up to what’s been posted here. I hope others will, too.

        Like NMLE, I agree that fighting the non-sense is a useless endeavor… until something fact-based (instead of click-sales) is the focus.

        • Hi common sense and was so interesting–appreciate your comments. I’ve never heard of JusticeQuest.net, but I’ll go take a look. I have been known to post on other sites with a different name, but always pro-justice, pro-Trayvon, and pro-democrats.

          • Funny that. Me, too. But I try to post with the same name. I double-checked and your twin is at JusticeQuest. My “twins” are all over the “interwebs”, but I won’t get discouraged from posting my views.

            IOW, Keep on fighting the good fight! Hope you’ll post here again.

    • Here are the things that I’m looking for:
      1) Johnathan Good’s drawing with GZ & TM positions during scuffle
      2) FDLE report
      3) TM’s cell phone records if they include text messages sent by DeeDee. She said that after the phone died she tried calling and texting him.
      4) 911 calls (7) for the official connection times
      ———
      I’m not sure what the consent form to search Manalo’s telephone is about.
      Given George’s school results already released, I have no high expectations about his high school records.

      • I believe the consent form to search Manalo’s phone was due to him having those three images of the crime scene on his phone.

        • Exactly… I’ve posted that I have minimal to no suspicions about Manalo, but I wouldn’t mind knowing if he’s the gun club worker. He didn’t have to advise the interviewer that he’d taken additional pics, but he did it.
          Why did he do that?

          Either something was uncovered and he was CYAing or he gave up his “evidence” pics because he wanted to be helpful.

  4. Glad to see a new thread- scrolling down on a mobile device was getting difficult! Thanks!

    Of the next discovery I’m looking forward to seeing the drawings by residents – w18 the distraught teacher should be interesting to see. I hope she was a drafting teacher and makes a good sketch.

    FWIW the phone records from TMs cell ought to easily refute Odessagirl’s rantings about the phone belonging to some little girl. Robert Zimmerman, GZs dad told reporters he didn’t believe TM was ever on the phone with Dee Dee at all.

    Too bad we are still waiting for GZs cell phone records. There is the potential that he used a prepaid calling card type plan and record aren’t kept but I don’t claim to be an expert on mobile devices. Does anyone know more?

    • I have completely ignored or disregarded Odessagirl’s claims as those of a paid promotion machine or as a blinded groupie. Maybe Odessagirl will launch her own bogus book. (Maybe it will be titled “Simpletons bought my book, too, here’s ‘how'”!)

    • Please don’t ask for page numbers, I am too dizzy from them. BUT. In one minor evidence dump there are some requests for information from various places. One was about GZ’s phone, a Blackberry on a prepaid scheme.
      This just means they don’t issue an itemised bill to the customer. But they still need too know what the calls were
      * for purpose of connecting them and
      * to know how many credits to take off the prepaid voucher.

      So, the phone company has records and they have to hand them over when asked by the right people.

  5. If you are thinking of Judge Debra Nelson, the answer is yes, she has been appointed for GZ case. So I think we will hear more about that from O’Mara. It also should be noted that since Lester has been removed, O’Mara can now challenge any and all of Lester rulings. In short, endless litagation, which I think is what O’Mara is planing.

  6. I’d like to (re?)-visit the idea of GZ getting cuts on the back of his head from a sprinkler box cover, what others here have referred to as “utility covers”. Look here at photo #38
    http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/?album=1&gallery=5&nggpage=2

    The closest picture of a sprinkler box cover that I could find elsewhere on the net is pictured here in a different color. Just for illustration purposes. http://losaltoshoneybees.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/days-old-swarm-or-one-month-old-colony-bees-relocated-from-irrigation-control-valve-box/

    You can see the edges on it. Now if the cover wasn’t pushed down all the way, then you’d get a sharp edge where the groove is. Also the corners are rounded and may be consistent with the crescent shaped cut on GZ’s head.
    See photo #30 of http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/evidence-photos/

    Now if the sprinkler box was where he got his head cut, during the fight/wrestle, then why would GZ say that his head was being banged on concrete?

    Here’s a possibility: The confrontation happened up at the T where GZ’s key/flashlight was dropped. Initially, the scuffle brought both of them down on the grass, and GZ hurt his head on the sprinkler box cover. I think he didn’t know it was a sprinkler box, which is why in one of the earlier interviews, he said he didn’t know if it was a sign or what (meaning the square thing in the grass he didn’t know was a sprinkler box).This would be consistent with Witness 11 and 20 hearing the sounds of “Ah ah ah” to the left of their living room, closer to the T.

    But here would be the reason for GZ lying. It was TM who stumbles to try to get away, but GZ goes after him and as a result they both end up two houses down. GZ could not admit to obtaining his head wounds so early in the fight but then had the strength and will to chase TM down south of the T. He’d lose his self-defense claim. He also had to stick with the “head banging on concrete” to make his story sound life-threatening.

    In any case, does anybody buy the sprinkler box cover as the culprit for those head cuts?

    • Many things are possible. What counts is what the prosecution can prove in court. Those green boxes are made of plastic, by the way.

      I think the prosecution is going to provide a vague narrative for what happened in the dark between the townhomes – GZ chased TM into that area, confronted him and shot him, and his injuries don’t match the story he tells. Plus, of course, he’s proven a liar in his movements from the clubhouse to the cut thru, and he ran after the teen and admitted it on the night, and tried to deny it later.

      The jury will come to the conclusion that whatever this guy says is a lie, even when he’s possibly telling the truth.

      Then of course they will have the teen’s mother swear it’s her son screaming for help.

      Personally I don’t know who it is screaming for help, and the FBI seems to be saying science can’t solve the puzzle. So that leaves a jury with only a few things to know for certain about what happened – and the fact that GZ lied about his movements is certain. The rest is circumstantial, and subjective, and may rest on the words of some partial eye and ear witnesses. So when it comes time to make a decision, the jury can argue (like we bloggers do) endlessly about things that are inconclusive, but things that ARE conclusive will be what they fall back on to make the final decision. And the guy’s simply not credible. He’s clearly lied to investigators and that’s what CAN BE KNOWN and can be relied on to color the more difficult questions a jury’s gotta answer.

      His statements to SPD are inconsistent, contradictory and impossible to square with the NEN call regarding the timing of events. He’s a liar. What else does a jury have to know beyond a reasonable doubt to get a conviction?

      • @willisnewton, ok so the green things are plastic, but are the white/silver sprinkler boxes at the scene plastic or metal, you think? Even if plastic, they could still have sharp edges to cause the cuts, and its even more reason for GZ to say it was the concrete sidewalk instead.

        • I’ve yet to see a photo with good enough resolution to say what those utility covers are.

          And like I true to explain, I don’t think it matters unless there is a way to prove your theory to a jury. Absent a confession or a surprise witness, you are engaging in speculation to what end?

          • @willisnewton, True, many speculations here will be of no consequence as far as what can be presented in court. However, as armchair detectives, I think we have our own license to ponder what might have happened right? And IMHO, i think speculating and trying to make sense of how GZ ACTUALLY got his injuries versus what he claimed is far more relevant than say, trying to figure out what car Shellie drives (I apologize to those of you who have taken an interest in that, it’s just not my interest!) and more palatable than my previous rants about crazy internet groupies, wouldn’t you agree? But seriously, I’m just trying to make things jive with things known to be at the crime scene. Alternative theories posed before were the dog sign and cell phone. I have not found those theories to be satisfactory. Hence, I continue to speculate…..

            If an alternative explanation is not offered by the prosecution as to how those head injuries occurred, then perhaps the jury may be left to believe GZ’s version. At the heart of GZ’s self-defense claim is being beaten to where he feared for his life.

            You might say, OK, so what, concrete, metal or plastic, it doesn’t matter. Maybe not, but what DOES matter is if it can be reasonably argued that GZ lied about it for the purpose of bolstering his self-defense claim. His claim is that the concrete was TM’s “weapon” if you will. But if he were just shimmying around in the grass and scraping up his head in the process, that’s a huge difference. Reasonably, if the little portion of his head were banged on the side of the concrete sidewalk in the position that he claimed in his re-enactment, one would expect a horizontal dent across his head, which he doesn’t have.

            @CSFC, you’re right he said he was able to shimmy himself off grass and therefore was no longer going to get his head bashed in that way. However, at the moment he pulled the trigger, he had to have “reasonable fear” that TM was going to take his gun and kill him to be justified. The previous 1) “head-bashing” and 2) nose/face punching along with 3) the long winded death threat “You’re gonna die tonight MF” are the basis of this fear. #3 is entirely based on GZ’s testimony and can’t be proven or disproven, but the defense has marginal evidence (a bleeding head and a dr.’s note saying a closed fracture) for #2 and #3 that may sway a jury. That leaves it in the prosecution’s court to explain those injuries, right? In my mind, it wouldn’t matter if GZ had been beaten black and blue and had his nose hanging down below his chin, he still would have been in the wrong for profiling, following and ultimately killing TM. But rather than ignoring it, it’s best to come up with an alternate explanation for the injuries that would fit with the reality that TM himself was just struggling in self-defense.

        • That’s the problem that pits Willis’s doubt against the evidence. My argument remains that plastic or not (because defense will argue that the concrete banging was really a banging on what Zimmerman *thought* was concrete), Zimmerman moved FROM THE CONCRETE or wherever TO THE GRASS by his own admission. Zimmerman also started in the GRASS. Witnesses say it started and ended in the GRASS. Zimmerman had options. He was on top and could have moved away. At a minimal, Zimmerman says there was no longer a possibility of being left diaper-bound BECAUSE HE SHIMMIED HIMSELF INTO THE GRASS!

          • FWIW the utility covers appear grey in rain and bleached white in sun. Plastic doesn’t really do that. They are probably concrete.

            I’m as guilty as anyone of wanting to know (and being willing to speculate) what exactly happened that night.

            If I were the detective I’d run down the speculative versions and see what fits the evidence and witness testimony. But we’ve all done that and IMO it’s not knowable past a certain point.

            What’s significant is areas are highlighted for further questioning of witnesses, such as how long the arguing voices went on since we have GZs story to compare with.

            No one saw the start of the altercation. W2 may have seen a foot chase. There a rough consensus of movement and struggle but nothing certain that is mutually confirmed until W6John sees the two on the ground.

            So if I were the prosecuor I’d present a compelling narrative around what is known and let each juror draw the specific picture they needed I their own mind as to what happened. Some can believe GZ hit a tree or bush. Some can assume he slipped in wet grass, and so on. All must be shown that what GZ claims is highly unlikely and that he’s lied about most of what led up to this time, That is what will sway a jury.

            It’s foolish IMO for the prosecution to say THIS is what happened (they stood here snd moved there etc) when all they’ve really got to do is say the overall narrative is that GZ got out if his car to run after TM and then he found him and shot him and that his injuries don’t match and GZs story is just as unlikely as the proven lies about his other movemts.

            • @willisnewton, thanks for the feedback. We can all speculate with different theories but, I think we can all agree with your statement that “the overall narrative is that GZ got out if his car to run after TM and then he found him and shot him and that his injuries don’t match and GZs story is just as unlikely as the proven lies about his other movements.”

            • FWIW the utility covers appear grey in rain and bleached white in sun. Plastic doesn’t really do that. They are probably concrete

              They are concrete, I believe it was W11 (not sure, female anyway) that said they are made of concrete. Is W11 white T-shirt? Anyway I think it was her that said it.

            • @Jim and CSFC, thanks guys, I did not know that the sprinker covers had been reported as concrete by a witness.

            • “No one saw the start of the altercation,” as far as we know. I suspect W11 and W20 saw much more than they have revealed, and one or both of them may have responded to the verbal exchange by going out onto their screened porch and thus seen the beginning of the physical scuffle. Just a possibility. But we don’t have enough knowledge to make definitive statements like “no one saw…”. **end nit picking**

  7. As hard as I try not to….There is internal rife in the GZ camp, and it’s ugly.

    So last night, the crazy GZ groupie lady advertised yet again on the nuthouse website (TCTH) that MO’s book will be available for pre-order next week. Of course, we could give a @*#)$*)(# about that, but in the same post she tried to defend MO/SO by saying they didn’t accept money for the Dr. Phil appearance nor did they take money for “reimbursement for time lost from work due to the show.” They had refused interviews with other outlets including with Dr. Phil prior to this. “The only pay they will receive is profits from the sale of the book which they are going to share towards the defense.”

    And then earlier today the nuthouse leader featured a post from an anonymous person (not crazy OG lady, she denied ever seeing it) who was said to have read some of the book, saying that GZ was not going to benefit from it. This poster also said that there were inaccuracies in the book that he felt would be damaging to GZ so was going to try to refute those inaccuracies in the upcoming days.

    Then LATER today, a post at the nuthouse showed up as an email from SO herself saying that she didn’t know who that featured anonymous person was, but that she knew only she, her husband MO and O’Mara had seen copies. She is threatening a lawsuit if anyone released information on it as copyrighted material. She said O’Mara had the unedited draft for weeks and did not tell them anything had to be changed.

    Very amusing.

    • I went to take a look. (Gag) This was the only thing I found interesting over there, although I don’t who O’Mara’s being interviewed by in this video.

      • @CSFC, sorry to make you barf, especially without it being from spiking your drinks. Visits to TCTH tends to make people nauseous, I know, and requires a can of disinfectant when you leave.

        To save you another trip, fyi, what are supposedly excerpts from ‘the book’ were posted today. @NLME, feel free to delete this post, or parts of it, if you feel copying text from this unpublished “alleged” book is inappropriate.

        It reads like a really bad fiction novel, and if all of this hoopla is intended to sell the book, then they’re doing an awful job of it, as even the nuthouse fans are suspicious of the whole thing. (After being torn apart by some of the other commenters, the crazy groupie lady has been silent today). Part of it tells GZ’s account of the night of the shooting in the first person, which makes it stupid unless he recorded GZ, otherwise how could he have GZ’s words verbatim? Even so, the details are curious: Example: “Somehow, I broke his grip on the gun and grabbed it between where the site and hammer is. I got it in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger.” Is he saying TM actually held the gun? GZ never said that in his statements.

        Additional text written in MO’s voice, as posted by the nuthouse leader in the comment section (not in the article itself on the blog):

        “As Shellie Zimmerman and I approached the yellow crime scene tape blocking off portions of a sidewalk and lawn inside the Twin Lakes community, we noticed a patrol car sitting a hundred feet away. […]

        I nodded to several of the officers on the scene that night because I recognized them from ten years before, when I was in the police department. To one of the officers I said, “I have his wife here next to me; the guy in the police car. His name is George and this is his wife.

        “Can you tell me anything that happened?”

        The Sanford police officer quickly answered, “Oh, don’t worry about it; from what I’ve seen, it’s clean.” This bit of “police jargon” meant, in the officer’s opinion, it was pretty clear what had taken place and there weren’t a lot of questions about the incident.”

        • “.. grip on the gun and grabbed it between where the site and hammer is…”

          I have enormous confidence in a book that can’t tell the difference between SITE and SIGHT, when a gun SIGHT must be a frequent topic of conversation at shooting ranges etc etc.

          Any suggestion TM did have a grip on the gun is either BS – or someone’s wiped it clean. Why would he do that if it hurts his story? But let them talk. Let them talk. The more versions they get out there, the more explaining to do in court.

          • Talkleft has a post now on the subject of MO’s book pre-release, if ya’ll would like more (or better) commentary than mine……

            http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/9/1/221432/1505?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TalkleftThePoliticsOfCrime+%28Tall

            By the way, the “anonymous poster” who provided the draft text of MO’s book (note that it’s a draft and not considered the final version) was conjectured (because she claimed not to know) by the crazy OG lady (aka JustFactsPlz at TCTH) to be someone who had posted at the nuthouse site before under the name “Ken” and had claimed to have seen the book. Wasn’t “Ken” a code name for one of the GZ’s family members in the jail house calls? Does anyone know/remember who Ken was supposed to be? Might be just a coincidence.

            • Ken = Scott, I believe. I remember seeing the name Scott in an evidence dump, too.

            • As the self-appointed neighborhood nuthouse watch captain, I give you more gossip….

              @qetno, Oh, “Ken” from jailhous calls is money mover brother-in-law Scott?
              http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/17/2898502/jail-call-says-defense-attorney.html

              Well, again, could be total coincidence, but if Scott/Ken was the anonymous poster behind the leaked manuscript, then I really wonder why. The reason given by the anonymous poster was as follows: **** “Upon initial review there appear to be numerous “mistakes” in [an upcoming] book, and even several specific items that we feel are outright fabrications. These aspects may be intended to help the book sell well, but they also present some serious factual concerns. I am, quite simply, trying to get out ahead of what “could be” a well intended attempt at public support, which simultaneously creates a significant and potentially damaging series of unintended consequences.” *****

              Notice that he said “we feel” and not “I feel”. Who are “we”? Scott and GZ, Daddy Z, the legal team or combinations thereof? No need to answer, just rhetorical questions. Although not entirely impossible, I have to doubt that a professional like O’Mara would try to do damage control in this manner and on the nuthouse blog. O’Mara can’t obviously have a direct hand in manipulating what is said in the book, which is in essence a witness’ testimony (or is it? Can MO claim “artistic license” on a non-fiction book written about a pending case in which he’s a witness?). But as suggested at TalkLeft, O’Mara should be scrambling for a gag order right about now. GZ’s family (along with crazy OG lady), however, seem to be enamored by the nuthouse website and actually believe it’s a real media outlet.

  8. NLME: I’d like a witness area. Lots of sequence and timing issues to work out. And wording of the Crump interview with DeeDee.

    Here is a little flow I’ve been thinking about.
    John Batchelor: From the time you hear the sounds initially to the time you hear the rock against the glass door, how long do you think that was?
    John (w6): Maybe five minutes.

    Counting back 5 minutes from the gunshot we arrive at 7:11:56. Trayvon and GZ are both running south behind John(w6)’s townhome. By the way, this is the only time Trayvon runs. So, any reference to running is this 20sec sprint down the N/S sidewalk. W1 says, “They were running in back.” Notice that is plural. I have Trayvon starting around 7:11:40, making it to his dad’s house around 7:12:00. He will still be winded until 7:12:20.

    DeeDee: He say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him… He say he not goin’ run cause he out of breath.

    So, when Trayvon is found he’s still out of breath. That would be before 7:12:20. Did GZ continue down that dark center sidewalk and locate the kid? Not so fast. Remember GZ says on his call: I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is. When was that? 7:13:10. That’s about a minute after Trayvon being found. Hmmmmm.

    • Jay, the issue here is that you assume where TM ran. The way I understand DD’s account, TM must have run much more than what you re saying. This is why I believe he used a more complicated path.

      • Ah! This is a big issue. I was thinking “Trayvon lost him” meant that GZ had not come up on him immediately. When the dispatcher halted GZ for following (GZ: he was right) maybe he paused briefly but continued on in the same direction (Serino: that’s following).

        I know that DeeDee got a little frustrated with Bernie and repeated a big section. If someone says “he ran” and then later on they say “he ran”, there could be a second run. Or, it could be the same run referred to twice.

        So, where did Trayvon run after going south? And how did he get back up by the “T”? Surely he would not WANT to return to where he had run from. W6 seems to eliminate the idea of another scuffle causing the debris field in his yard before the argument. He heard something 5 min. before gunshot, and much later the argument that others heard, a pause, and then voices during the moving scuffle that ended with cries and yells for help in his yard.

        Per DeeDee, Trayvon seems to be followed to the place of the loud argument by w11’s house. Not sure of the direction they came. I suspect others north of w11 heard and saw some of this. We may have some of their opinions obtained through neighborhood gossip. Only it is being filtered through the witnesses we know instead of coming directly.

        • Jay,

          DeeDee says close to nothing concerning TM’s whereabouts. She says strictly nothing about where he ran. What I understand DeeDee stated, and I may be wrong, is that TM walked past GZ’s truck and ran. She also says that he ran long enough to be tired to the point where he would decide to walk home instead of keeping running and would still be tired when GZ finds him back.

          I also get timing inputs from the NEN, 911 calls & T-mobile call log. From those sources, I can conclude that TM started running at 7:11:41 and was near the T with GZ some times between 7:15(:30?) & 7:16:11.

          Finally, I get GZ’s 911 call that indicates that he was parked on TTL somewhere between the mailboxes awning and the T. I also believe the clubhouse vids show just that.

          So, we’re talking of about approx. 4min during which TM would run from a point east from GZ’s truck, then get tired and start walking home, then get cornered and keep on walking to end up at the T.
          Therefore, any scenario you can assume that is based on DeeDee’s statement requires that TM ran enough to be exhausted and ended up walking toward the T with GZ behind him.

          • Doesn’t she also say he ran part of the way from 7-11, to get out of the rain? before taking shelter at the mailboxes? So he’d be pre-stressed from that.

            • I agree, Aussie. On a more general point, we don’t really know what were TM’s physical capabilities and how “fresh” he was when he started running away from GZ. Therefore, it is hard to say what running to exhaustion really meant.

              However, I have a hard time believing that he would be exhausted after running just 200-300ft and won’t be able to recover from such short run in a couple of minutes. But again, this can only be an assumption I’m making. Following that assumption, I have to conclude that he ran and walk a path that was not straight home from TTL. That’s my claim.

              Does knowing what path TM took matters? It’s a very itchy matter to many including me. Not knowing what happened during those 4min after GZ’s “Shit. He’s running” while he was so close from home, allows any speculation. That said, I don’t if it matters when it comes to the trial.

              Indeed, there are plenty of indications that GZ isn’t telling the truth or the whole truth. His narrative is contradicted by his own NEN call as well as witness statements (DeeDee being #1) and some evidences. So, I believe the prosecution has a shot at winning.

          • I think Dee Dee’s testimony can be used at trail (if they so choose) in a limited fashion that shields her from cross examination if they have her answer questions regarding her deposition – “did you tell investigators this?” and such, and limit her to the things she knows and spoke about originally: that TM was near the mail kiosk for some time, and that the call dropped and picked up when it did, and that GZ said something different than he claims he said when the two met, for starters. I find her difficult to understand at times, but completely credible and sincere.

            The mere fact that Dee Dee knew TM waited by the mail kiosk puts GZ’s story into the land of fiction right away, and IMO through deductive reasoning alone proves that GZ parked someplace in the middle between the clubhouse parking lot and the final cut thru parking spot, and that he MOVED down TTL chasing TM with his car.

            I don’t think investigators knew to ask her straight up if TM ran away from a moving car – but if she is asked, she might say that she had that impression or that TM told her directly that happened. She doesn’t know the significance of that action in the legal sense, but I think it speaks towards the depraved mind concept.

            The timing of the NEN call is a very specific indicator of where GZ was at what time, and don’t forget he marked a map showing his location at the first corner of TTL before he quickly crossed it out and went into his “double back/circled the car/ hand in waistband” fiction. So long as a jury believes that TM was waiting by the mail kiosk, (which is something Dee Dee knows) then the rest is just deductive reasoning based on the timing of the call. GZ cannot be in the clubhouse parking lot, and he also cannot already be at the cut thru facing east when he says “is he by the clubhouse now/yeah, now he’s coming at me.” He’s caught is a big, big lie here and when confronted with this lie by investigators he doubled down on the lie, insisting repeatedly he was “at the clubhouse” when TM approached him, hand in waistband.

          • Trayvon was still winded when he first sees (or hears) GZ approaching. If he saw GZ quite a way off, that could explain how he was still winded. This may have been well before GZ got to him or Trayvon started walking away. It’s also possible that DeeDee was hearing panic in Trayvon that can cause hard breathing similar to after a run.

  9. What can we rely on as incontrovertible in this case?

    I think GZ’s NEN call and the seven 911 calls won’t be overturned. The exact times and redacted info will fill in for us. Beyond that there are points in the interviews where the witnesses describe what was happening during their 911 call. These are pretty solid. Next, there are places where a witness talks about something in another witness’s 911 call. Finally, testimony sections are given in sequences that are easy to time out and butt up against the start or end of their 911 call. Then I… then the man… immediately after that… 20 seconds later… These are less stable but may stand when considered all together.

    Except for the NEN call, the others overlap. And w18’s fourteen minute call is simultaneous with parts of them all.

    • A jurying going to “rely” on whatever they feel like relying on, truth or fiction. But there will be facts established at trial after deliberations but also things established without either party objecting. The timing of the essential actions described on the
      NEN call can be debated somewhat but the defense is only going to get so far.

      The significance and meaning of resident/witness statements can and likely will be debated and the timing of the shot opens up questions about “the missing minutes” that aren’t by themselves conclusive for either side.

      IMO what’s incontivertable is that GZ lies to investigators about his movements from the clubhouse area to the T. And he lied about where he was when he said, “he ran” by claiming he was already at RVC without running. And whatever else there is to argue about, the guys a liar and anything he claims is highly suspect.

      • It’s also not disputed that after George became aware of at least one witness, he fired the shot. Zimmerman heard W6 say he’s calling 9-1-1.

  10. “And w18′s fourteen minute call is simultaneous with parts of them all.”

    Awesome point! It’s also irrefutable that George Zimmerman altered the crime scene; Zimmerman admits at a minimum that he altered the position of Trayvon Martin’s body.

  11. This is in response to some of the comments above. I just thought I would put my 2 cents in again, it’s been awhile. I love the comments BTW it’s good reading

    .I know this is not very popular but I’m still sticking with close to my original thoughts 4 months ago as to where both GZ and Trayvon where near the end of GZ’s 911 call. I believe when GZ got out of his truck he walked fast for 20 seconds
    and then slowed down for 7 seconds and then stopped to finish the call. I don’t believe he went anymore then about 140 feet before he stopped. I believe Trayvon trotted up near the T then at first I thought he took a right at the T for about 50 feet and got off the path and found a dark spot to hide and wait to see if the strange guy comes around the corner, and that still may be, but I believe it is possible that he took a left at the T and found a dark spot near the teachers window. If you remember she said she heard talking and then the talking stopped and then she heard talking again but louder and further away. I believe It could of been Trayvon talking to DeeDee the first time near her window. As for GZ I believe he started up the walkway leading to the T but about half way he veered right off the walkway and got close to the building and slowly made his way to the corner and stopped in fear that Trayvon could be right around the corner. At first I thought the tapping sounds was water drops building up on the roof and then spilling over onto the drain spout 2 and 3 drops at a time and it still may be but now I’m thinking it’s GZ tapping his flashlight on the corner of the building. I believe GZ is not moving at this time, when I listen to the underlying sound from the call I can hear water trickling out of the down spout that is right behind him, this sound is consistent just like his flashlight taps, he is not moving.If you stop the video below at 1:57 you will see the down spout.

    http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/george-zimmerman-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense–75855.html

    I believe GZ got to the end of the call and just stood there looking out into the dark looking for Trayvon. I believe Trayvon still in the dark spot near the teachers window could not see GZ at the corner of the building, I think it was too dark and GZ kind of blended into the building and that was just what he was trying to do.I think after time went by and the strange man didn’t come around the corner Trayvon thought it was safe to walk home and then he no sooner got just past the T and GZ was right behind him and then the louder arguing started.

    • Not to be cliche’, but OMG! I was just thinking about the gutter noise theor’y. Couldn’t remember who posted it or the details, but the significance of the sounds stuck with me. Can you refresh?

      • @CSFC

        Yes, I can give you the theory I wrote 4 months ago but that was before any evidence dumps. A lot of things have been cleared up since then. Although there are still a lot of things I believe, like GZ pulling his gun on Trayvon before the fight and GZ frisking Trayvon after the shot. Link below if you want to read it.

        Click to access trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-timing-comment-from-jim.pdf

        Now let me ask you. Have you listened to the underlying sound at the end of GZ’s call? If you haven’t I wish you would. In some of your past posts you seem to have some good ears and I would be interested in what you think you hear. It seems I’m the only one that hears it. Maybe it’s different to other people, I don’t know.

        • @Jim –

          It could be gutter noise, imo. I don’t hear drip-drops, but I think it could be a light, continuous flow as the water runs through the downspout. I don’t know if you’ve seen the pics filed under “misc” over at axiomamnesia, but they have some nice clear images of the gutters/downspouts at this link:

          http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/evidence-photos/miscphotos/?nggpage=2

          See pics 56-60 for the RVC homes and image 30 for the TTL side.

          The noise could also be the whirling sound of unscrewing a flashlight to shuffle batteries, too.

          • @CSFC

            “I think it could be a light, continuous flow as the water runs through the downspout.”

            That’s exactly what I hear!!! That is why I don’t think GZ is moving. Good pics, I believe GZ stood right in front of that down spout. Thanx for getting back, I appreciate it.

            • The only problem I see in proving anything about where Zimmerman stood as he completed the call with NEN where we would hear the trickling water noises coming from the downspouts is that there are downspouts at the _back_ of W11/W20’s house (the HOA lady with the screened patio) which is at the Tee and there’s also one at the _front_ of W13’s house on the RVC side. W13 is Manalo, the flashlight bearing iPhone 3-pic taker.

              The image at 2861 seems to be the corner house in this image (which I called #60 above and it’s the last image on page 2 of the “misc” photoset at axiomamnesia’s website).

              Or go to http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/gallery/new-crime-scene-photos-released-7-12-2012/ — (you have to add dsc_0015.jpg to the url to see the actual pic directly).

              But the fronts of the homes on TTL also have the same gutter/downspout configuration (unless it’s an end/corner home which has both front and back gutters), so there would need to be additional corroboration of sounds besides just the drainage noises to prove Zimmerman’s actual location. If coupled with the starting point in *time* of the door chime of Zimmerman’s Ridgeline door indicating it opened, you could travel only a finite distance to reach *somebody’s* house (front or back) to hear the gutter, iow.

              One other quick note… The unpaved cut-throughs create end units/corner homes, so there should always be downspouts there as well. Zimmerman could have reached some of those cut-throughs from TTL side in the exact same amount of time as he could have reached the Tee or RVC after leaving his truck and the same gutter noises would be heard. Zimmerman could utter the same phrases heard on the NEN call from those unpaved cut-throughs — “he ran”, “towards the back entrance”, “I don’t know where this kid is”, “past the clubhouse… you’ll see my truck”, etc.

              This is a long post… my apologies. Thanks for pushing me to look at those noises again which also pushed me to seek out better pics than we had early on.

              At the end of the day, you can’t prove where Zimmerman stopped by the sounds we think are gutter drainage noises without additional corroborating evidence. Alternatively, the gutter noise can corroborate or disqualify other theories.

            • @CSFC

              “At the end of the day, you can’t prove where Zimmerman stopped by the sounds we think are gutter drainage noises without additional corroborating evidence. Alternatively, the gutter noise can corroborate or disqualify other theories.”

              “STOPPED” is the operative word. The underlying sound we hear sounds like water trickling down or out of a downspout. This is a sound most of us have heard on and off our whole life, it’s very familiar, add the fact that it was raining that night, I believe it corroborate to some degree that that’s “probably” what we hear. I don’t believe it is a coincidence. But your right, I can’t prove that. Trickling water aside the underlying sound is continuous and sounds to be independent of GZ’s cellphone, this leads me to believe GZ is not moving, he “stopped” for the rest of the call. Again your right, I can’t prove that but it just seems logical to me.

              Now “IF” GZ stopped then that would mean he could not be anywhere else for the rest of the call, “not walking” so where is the spot he stopped? Yes, I’m well aware there are a lot of downspouts in the complex but to me the most logical one is the one just before you get to the T. Though we can’t prove it because we are only going by sound, it sounds like GZ got out of his SUV stood by the SUV for 4 seconds ( to clip his gun on maybe? Don’t know) then walked fast (some think ran because of the wind “sound” in the phone but can’t prove that) for 20 seconds and then slowed down for 7 seconds. Now I did a little experiment back when this all started, I walked real fast for 20 seconds with a cellphone to my ear trying to listen to my wife on the other end and then slowed down about half for 7 seconds. I did this a number of times and the best I could do was between 130 and 140 feet. This lines up close with where some speculate GZ’s SUV was parked ( of course they can’t prove that) and the furthest corner of the first building of the paved cut through just short of the T. Now we know GZ said Trayvon ran / skipped through that cut through headed for the T / back gate and I believe him because it just seems to be the most logical route, but he can’t prove that anymore then I can. When GZ followed Trayvon I believe he took the same route.I don’t believe GZ is a quick enough thinker to strategize anything in the few seconds he had before he went after Trayvon. Couple that with him saying that’s the way he went and told the dispatcher he was following the goon it seems logical to me, but he can’t prove that anymore then I can or anyone for that matter.Now if we are to take DeeDee’s word about the conversation she had with Trayvon that night (and I do) we also have to consider that the conversation between GZ and the dispatcher also was the truth. You see up to this point in GZ’s mind he thinks what he is doing is right, he has no real reason to lie yet. Nothing serious has happened yet, it was just another night in the line of duty in GZ’s mind. Well maybe a little more because he didn’t want this one to get away.

              Now getting to the spot. I believe when GZ got about half way up the walkway / cut through the dispatcher asked “are you following him” GZ said “yea” dispatcher “OK we don’t need you to do that” GZ said “OK” GZ got off the walkway and headed for the corner of the building and then stopped. But I believe he was going to do that anyway. Only a real idiot (and I know GZ could be) would go blindly past a corner of a building in the dark when he don’t know where this kid / goon is. I believe GZ stopped close to the corner of the building because the sound of the wind stopped, I can hear the continues trickling sound, and the sound of his voice lowered, but I can’t prove that. I believe it was about this point, maybe the last minute or two of the call and after that GZ started to strategize.I believe this is when he found the time to put his gun in the ready by the sound of it, but nobody can prove that.I believe GZ just stood in his little safe spot and looked out into the darkness trying to see movement that could be the goon. You see, I think GZ did not want to give the goon the element of surprise, I believe he wanted that for himself. I don’t believe GZ would have the guts to do it any other way and it’s really the smart way if you think about it. I believe it was only about 30 seconds or so after the end of the call Trayvon thought it was safe to walk home from where ever he was hiding because he thought he lost the strange man and that’s when GZ saw his chance to be a hero. With his equalizer at hand and the element of surprise he rushed out after the goon.But your right I can’t prove that. From there the speculation continues.

              You see CSFC all I’m trying to do is use sounds / CLUES and commonsense to see if things line up enough to form a opinion, it don’t make it right, It’s just my opinion. For instance, the sound of somebody screaming for help on the 911 call, I have a opinion on who that is but I can’t prove it, that don’t mean I’m going to forget about it.

            • @Jim –

              “When GZ followed Trayvon I believe he took the same route.I don’t believe GZ is a quick enough thinker to strategize anything in the few seconds he had before he went after Trayvon.”

              Possibly he is quick enough. It doesn’t take all that much to understand parallel roads and Zimmerman already expressed that he understood shapes/layouts by subsequently indicating that he would achieve an address by obtaining an address from a perimeter property. (Zimmerman never gave the address, etc., and that arg put for by Zimmerman is bogus I know, but it does show his understanding of perimeters/shapes/layouts).

              I think your hypo is really very likely what happened. The point is the defense will kill it. They will show that there was a downspout past the Tee spot on the RVC side. BTW, the closest witness to put Zimmerman near the Tee twice is W18 (teacher) who “guestimated” 10 minutes between the two alerting/noticeable/alarming sounds she heard.

              Due to the locations of the downspouts on W13’s house (Manalo’s house), Zimmerman could be at either the Tee or at the front of his house to achieve the same sound effect. This covers timing as well for the defense give or take a few panting noises.

              When I force myself into Zimmerman’s shoes dress (if I were a hunter), I stop near the Tee to finish my call in a lowered voice as i proclaim I don’t know (for sure, but I have a suspicion) where this kid is. I end my NEN call and either:

              (1) move further towards and down RVC heading towards the back gate to use a parallel unpaved (private) cut-through to find my “Target” and drive him out of it the unpaved cut-through where he’s chatting up his girlfriend.

              (2) move further down the paved cut-through towards Brandy Green’s townhouse and hear the boy on the phone and confront/drive him out of the unpaved (private) cut-through where he’s chatting up his girlfriend.

              (3) move back towards TTL, make a left and move towards the first or second unpaved cut-through towards the back gate where I find my “Target” and drive him out of the unpaved (private) area he’s chatting up his girlfriend from.

              If the chase got louder anywhere near the W11 and W6 homes and Trayvon Martin was out of breath anywhere near the actual killing point, there had to be a south to north chase between the unpaved cut-throughs before reaching the bend AGAIN. W18 says she heard a raucous twice! Large gap ‘tween the raucous. (George at/near Tee proclaiming “He ran”, George lowers voice as he doesn’t want to give address, altercation nearly 10 mins later as voices AGAIN become disconcerting).

      • Noticed in DeeDee’s testimony to de la Rionda at one point:
        “He said it was startin’ a little bit dripping water … So, he put his hoodie on.”

        This would only tie in Trayvon to standing under a full drain spout if DeeDee remembered it as a different time. She says his hood went up while he was walking on TTL with George following him in the car/truck.

        • Except DeeDee talks in dialect. Unless she specifically said drainpipe, “startin’ a little bit dripping water” could just mean starting to rain lightly. We need someone good at the dialect to interpret for us.

          • Good point. Trayvon must have put his hood up when he first walked out from the mailboxes cover. He had run in there earlier because the rain was pouring down. But by the time he noticed the creep, the rain had slowed down. He moved away shortly after seeing GZ because he was very uncomfortable about him. One of the Zimmer supporters told me that you can watch and follow anybody even close behind in a car and they won’t be bothered in the least. HA!

            Anybody think Trayvon went back and hid at the mailboxes? If GZ went south, maybe Trayvon went north. If GZ went east, maybe Trayvon evaded to the west. Makes sense for Trayvon to go any place he was before, even by the truck, for safe hiding because it would be so unexpected. The neighborhood is not very big and I don’t think Trayvon was about to be chased out of there like the goons. This occurs to me from DeeDee’s statement, “He started walking back again.” It seems like a replay 3 minutes later when his route seems to be going home around the same turn he took before.

    • As for the hiding..

      I think it’s much more likely that Trayvon Martin ducked into one of the unpaved cut-throughs seen here: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/evidence-photos/miscphotos/ — see images 135 and 108.

      Trayvon Martin could have just decided to hang out there to continue his call with DeeDee after he’d lost Zimmerman. Little did Trayvon know, Zimmerman’s still on the hunt! Zimmerman continues his search, finds him and runs him out of the unpaved cut-through back around the buildings and toward the Tee again.

      • You know, I think you might be right. I remember back in March hearing one of GZ’s family or friends who had spoken to him say that he went around a building that night searching. Wish I could find that mention again now.

  12. Bella Lee writes: “Witness 6 says that in the 10 seconds he saw the fight, he never saw hitting, punching or head slamming. He said he saw hand to hand wrestling like the person on top was holding the guy down for the cops. All that contradicts Zimmerman alleged attack story”

    LetJusticePrevail writes: “And wouldn’t that be close to the time when GZ said TM was trying to smother him?”

    No Agenda writes: “Yes it would.”

    LetJusticePrevail writes: “KInd of explains why #6 might not have seen punching, if TM was using his hands to cover GZ’s mouth and nose. It might also explain why #6 thought the “guy on top” was using MMA style tactics, pressing the head down with hands or forearms, and first thought it was a ‘ground and pound”.”

    This was part of a conversation about W6 over at HuffPo. I think all of us know what the flaw is here, but it would have made for a good defense theory if it weren’t for that flaw. While this is an interesting take, the problem (that I’m surprised no one pointed out, yet) is that John also stated the screams were continuous/clear. If TM was smothering GZ at this moment that John sees, that would make TM screaming for help while smothering GZ. Hm, that wouldn’t make much sense, huh?

    The discussion took place in this article:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/29/george-zimmerman-judge-lester_n_1841293.html?utm_hp_ref=trayvon-martin

    • I concede nothing. There was absolutely no smothering by Trayvon Martin being performed. No DNA on his hands. However, George Zimmerman’s hands had something that needed to be washed off, yes?

      • “However, George Zimmerman’s hands had something that needed to be washed off, yes?”

        Apparently! Also, thank you for pointing out that second flaw with their theory – don’t know how that escaped me!

    • At no point in W11’s 911 call is there any any sonic indication that the person screaming had a hand placed over his mouth. Had that happened during the screaming, there would have been an audible difference in the tonal balance of the obscured and unobscured sounds. Combine the sonic evidence with the lack of DNA on TM’s hands, and you get a near certainty that the smothering story is a fabrication (BRD, IMHO).

    • ROLL TIDE! If Michigan woulda got 3 more pts, I’d have won the bet I made. I called Bama 41-17.

  14. I am glad i found this blog you guys are on point. Thanks for many theories. Just and believe 2 plus 2 = 4 for gz it equals 6.jj

  16. Have you noticed how GZ’s shirt is well tucked i his pants when he arrives at the police station?

    It suggests two things:
    1) Either, the fight was not intense.
    2) Or, he found time to tuck it before T. Smith took him in custody.

    If (1) then we have a direct contradiction with GZ’s claim that his shirt lifted revealing his concealed gun.
    If (2) then we can wonder hat went through his mind after killing the kid that made him taking care of his shirt.

    I need to add that his holster wasn’t found clipped in his pant but in his waistband. Therefore, either the gun never was concealed or he removed it when tucking his shirt. But then there was no blood found on the holster. So, if he touched it, it must have been with clean hands.

    • He was found with it attached externally on the waistband?

      Also, I took it to mean that his jacket lifted exposing the gun, not his shirt.

      Either way, though, I find it pretty weird that he looks so clean and tidy in the photos taken. The back of his shoes are fine, but the front are noticeably scuffed and dirty. IIRC, his back doesn’t show any visible wet spots from the rain, but the front of his pants did, which suggests he spent more time face down than on his back.

      Btw, how are you feeling Tchoupi? Doing good after your surgery?

    • I have mentioned this before but it is something that continually intrigues me.

      Paramedic interviews:
      Brandy states : GZ was hancuffed behind his back, he had blood on his hands and arms, they lifted up his shirt to check for any other injuries (therefore it had to be pulled out of his pants)…no mention of a jacket

      O’Rourke states: GZ was wearing a polo and jeans…no mention of a jacket

    • tchoupi siad: “I need to add that his holster wasn’t found clipped in his pant but in his waistband. Therefore, either the gun never was concealed or he removed it when tucking his shirt. But then there was no blood found on the holster. So, if he touched it, it must have been with clean hands”.

      It’s starting to make sense to me…..after he tucked the gun into his pants he was seen by a witness putting his hands on his head…hence the medic’s claim of blood on his hands.

      • Something about that pesky, magic blood of GZ bothers me. Paramedics cleaned it off with peroxide but did not stop the flow? He has it at the scene. He doesn’t have it after the paramedics. Remember how everybody was so impressed when he didn’t show any walking into and around the station. Then, later at the station it’s back for the photo shoot. It’s magic.

        • Paramedics stated that the wounds were not bleeding anymore.

          I don’t know if you had a bleeding nose. I had it quite a few times from being hit during sport. It can be impressive and messy but it also stops bleeding after a couple of minutes.

          Briefly, paramedics cleaned up GZ to get visual access to the wounds. That’s it.

      • @LeeLee, there was GZ’s blood found on the handle of the gun. How would you reconcile that?

        • Sorry did not realize that, guess I am confused, thanks. I was mostly wondering how he got the blood on his hands as the paramedics stated and about how his shirt was tucked in after the medics said they lifted it.

          • @LeeLee and @tchoupi, since blood was only on the handle and not the trigger, I imagine that right after the shooting, he tossed the gun aside, and was on TM’s back for some time before he got up to pace back and forth touching his head with at least one hand (as witnessed by Mary/Selma?). I don’t think he reholstered the gun until cell phone Jon came out, as they had their little friendly conversation about guns. Maybe GZ had a little show and tell? At some point with a bloody hand he reholstered the gun, getting blood on the handle, but the holster could be clean because it was still inside his waistband.

            As for the neatly tucked in shirt? That’s a mystery. Maybe the sympthetic cops let Shellie close to him after the medics were done and she tidied him up. Wasn’t she also the one who put on those biga$$ bandages on him as seen the next day? Judging from that and the way she talked to GZ in the jailhouse calls, she seems like the type that is inherently motherly or had been trained to become so from being married to a needy neurotic man. Sorry, now I’m back to being an armchair psychologist. Please do carry on your excellent analysis of the evidence….

            • WSI says “Maybe GZ had a little show and tell?”.

              I find it a very interesting point you’re making. After all, JohnW6 claims he heard GZ say that his gun is on the ground. But, we know T. Smith finds it in his waistband.
              It looks possible that GZ’s gun was on the ground when JonW13 arrived. GZ thinking that JonW13 was a cop, he may have told him about the gun on the ground as heard by JohnW6. GZ would have picked it up during his discussion with JonW13 and put it in his own waistband.
              I love that conclusion as it explains JohnW6’s statement.

              In any case, I still don’t get how the holster that is supposed to be clipped inside his pants ends up in his waistband and there is no blood on it. The holster must have been stuffed in the waistband at a time his hands were not bloodied. That can possibly be when he was in his truck. But, it doesn’t look possible the holster was moved in his pocket after the gunshot. Indeed, the item we know GZ touched after the gunshot has his blood on it.

            • @Tchoupi, you said “I still don’t get how the holster that is supposed to be clipped inside his pants ends up in his waistband and there is no blood on it.”

              I think it’s the waistband OF his pants, so it’s not two separate places. The holster never moved from where it was clipped inside his pants, I believe. He pulled the gun, at some point put it back using a bloodied hand, explaining the blood on the gun handle. I don’t think he needed to touch the holster or if he did, it was with a hand that hadn’t been bloodied yet. When the cops came, I imagine him putting both hands up onto his head in surrender, at which point he could have smeared the blood all over his head making it look like it was “45% covered in blood.” (as stated by one of the cops?)

          • Did they tuck it back in for him? That’d be awkward. I find blood on his arms more interesting than blood on his hands. How did it get on his arms? Did he smear blood around from a bloody nose? Was the blood Trayvon’s? Did he get TM’s blood on him when altering the body? I’ve also thought of something more sinister… He said he had to aim around his hand in order not to shoot himself… What if he was holding onto Trayvon’s hoodie when he shot, and that’s why he had to be careful not to shoot his own hand, and how the blood got on his hands. He’d definitely want to wash THAT away. When did the blood on GZ’s hands get there?

            Never enough answers.

            • If Officer Timothy Smith had to tuck GZ’s shirt in for him, I wonder how fantasy-cop reacted to having a real uniformed officer put his hands in his pants… Maybe gave him flashbacks to his days as an alter boy…
              When Smith got home that night, his wife asked him, “Why did they keep you so late?” And he said, “Well, I had to handle a real hard case…”
              **OK, I’ll stop now. NLME, feel free to delete the weak attempt at gallows humor…**

            • T. Smith to GZ – Is that a gun in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?

              Ok, I know, not funny. 😛

  17. An exercise in UN-redaction.

    Witness 3 connects 15 seconds before the alleged time of gunshot. Let’s look at that portion of her call:
    7:16:41 Dispatch: 911. Is your emergency
    7:16:42 for police, fire, or
    7:16:43 medical?
    7:16:44 W3: Police, please.
    7:16:45 Dispatch: For what address or
    7:16:46 location?
    7:16:47 W3: Um
    7:16:48 I’m at xxxxx and there’s someone
    7:16:49 screaming outside.
    7:16:50 Dispatch: OK, and what is it?
    7:16:51
    7:16:52
    7:16:53
    7:16:54 Is that what you are at?
    7:16:55
    7:16:56 W3: Yes. Hurry. There is a
    7:18:57 gunshot. Hurry up.

    Not all of the available recordings are the same. This one at AxiomAmnesia lines up pretty well even with the obvious redaction at 7:16:48. We know her address and that it takes a couple of seconds to say it. I think the answer to What is it? would be something like The Retreat at Twin Lakes.

    I imagine she would say, “There is a gunshot” immediately after hearing it. I don’t hear the gunshot. Why not?

    Why does this matter? Well, it doesn’t here so much. But in witness 11’s call my copy has the shot way off due to redactions. I’m going to have to add time back in. Getting bold. Care to help?

    • @whonose: the recording on your YouTube channel has these times:

      7:16:41 Dispatch: 911. Is your emergency
      7:16:42 for police, fire, or
      7:16:43 medical?
      7:16:44 W3: Police, please.
      7:16:45 Dispatch: For what address or
      7:16:46 location?
      7:16:47 W3: Um
      7:16:48 I’m at xxxxx
      7:16:49
      7:16:50 and there’s someone
      7:16:51 screaming outside.
      7:16:52
      7:16:53
      7:16:54
      7:16:55
      7:16:56
      7:16:57
      7:16:58
      7:16:59 Dispatch: Is that what
      7:17:00 you are at?
      7:17:01 W3: Yes. Hurry.
      7:17:02 There is a gunshot.

      See? When you compare this to the one above you see that the recordings out there are not all the same. It’s the redaction that is different. The big gap is missing some of the text we know from the first one. Again in this one the sound of the shot is apparently redacted. But, the shot looks to be 5 seconds later.

      Thanks for your attention. I’m trying to get somewhere with this. Promise.

      • S. Jay:
        I made my 911 videos from the original recordings released by the SPD on the City of Sanford website. Since the silences vary in length, I assume they redacted the info by replacing it with silence, preserving the time integrity of the recording start-to-finish. in general, I have found that material on Axiom Amnesia is often incomplete, and often edited (for brevity, or their concepts of relevance, I would assume).
        All the recordings of witness interviews I’ve heard, in contrast, are redacted by splicing OUT the info, closing up the gaps…

    • Redaction and un-redaction is an artform. I have straightened out times for 911 calls of w3, w11, and w18 now.

      Witness 3 was easy because it started so close to the gunshot. Witness 11 I got from Teeslaw (whonose)’s YouTube channel. Witness 18 is basically unredacted on ForThePublicRecord’s YouTube channel.

  18. This is a strange question but I will ask anyway. Does anyone know if either Ostermans smoke cigarettes?

    • Hey there Loree! Yep, that is a strange question. No don’t know. Why do you ask about Ostermans and cigarettes?

      • I was checking out the 7-11 video and I don’t know if you remember we were talking about the woman in the video might be Shellie or Sandra. I was fooling around with some screenshots with the Sandra’s pic from the Dr.Phil show and her other pics. It very close, but I’m not sure. But anyways she is buying cigarettes, was wondering if she or her husband was a smoker.

        • Whoever that woman was, it looked like she wasn’t buying for herself. She pointed and asked about some, then they showed her one close up, then she asked for and got a different pack. People buying for themselves usually know exactly what they want (and their second choice if it’s not available). This looked like buying for someone else.

      • Yes. I was thinking maybe Mark is not the one who saw TM first. The timing of her leaving the store, if its her, would put her closer to the time TM is at the mailboxes waiting out the rain.

        • Can’t remember where I read it or who said it, but someone thought that it sounded like GZ was packing a pack of cigarettes somewhere on the NEN tape. I believe the person also speculated that he could be heard taking a puff and exhaling on the tape. *shrug* Wonder if GZ’s a smoker.

          • IIRC
            From his Myspace page it read smoke/drink no/yes
            Just drinks, but that was in 2005. He could of picked up the habit. IDK

        • That woman i s 10 minutes or so after TM leaves the store. So she’d not have seen him there. MAY have seen him at mailboxes if she then drove into RATL, timing-wise. But there’s nothing to say she was there at all, whereas MO definitely was, at least minutes after the shooting.

    • Sorry. Only seen 3 photos of them and they were not smoking in any of them. On the Facebook there is (or was) a set of photos, some family messing around, if you can still find that you might be able to see if there’s ashtrays anywhere.

  19. So what does everyone think about the alleged Osterman book excerpts posted online (you know where) that describe yet more inconsistencies ? Would there likely be any legal ramifications or consequences as to their posting them online ?

    • I can’t trust that site. I have read a little and I think if Osterman wrote this, it doesn’t help his friend one bit. I wonder if Dr. Phil will post some excerpts on his site. Checking out the promo for the airing on Sept 10th, he had both of them in tears.

    • @LeeLee, FWIW, you’re absolutely not a troll in our eyes (was that you that somehow made it onto an unsubstantiated suspected troll list over at Leathermans? How’d that happened? Craziness….)

      Osterman does not have a gag order on him so I’m thinking his writing a book is similar to any of the other witnesses talking to media. The difference however is that he is a close confidant of GZ who was there in the aftermath and would have heard anything that GZ might have said that was not revealed to the public. While I can’t think of any legal ramifications for himself in writing the book, it seems foolish if his intention truly were to help GZ. These inconsistencies don’t seem innocent, and it seems like he’s trying to twist the facts to favor GZ. He’ll likely be questioned about them when they put him on the stand.

      1) Inconsistencies that mirror what GZ claimed.
      The excerpt parroted what GZ said about the dispatcher telling him to go where he could see TM. Of course we all know this was not true from the NEN tape. I think it would be important to know if Osterman heard this as a narrative directly from GZ or if he got this from reviewing the re-enactment tape. Or even better yet, is this evidence he concoct the whole story with GZ before the re-enactment? Remember, this excerpt came from an earlier draft of the book. Maybe it was written before that police video was released, and Osterman didn’t actually know how stupidly inconsistent that statement was when compared with the NEN call.

      2) Inconsistencies that were NOT claimed by GZ.
      As I noted in my post before, the excerpt stated that GZ wrestled the gun away from TM, suggesting that TM had a hold of it. GZ never said that TM touched the gun. Now the fact that TM’s DNA was not found on the gun does not 100% prove he didn’t touch it in some manner but the evidence supports the notion that TM didn’t touch the gun. Another inconsistency according to the book was that GZ saw TM looking INTO the houses, and his suspicion arose from knowing that a shorter guy lived at the house (Taaffe) and not someone that tall. Ok, this is such a blatant effort to disguise the racial profiling. He was basing it on height and not race or even personally known Taaffe? GZ never said these things in the multiple statements to the police.

      Again, it would be important to know if these details were actually described by GZ to Osterman or did he get them from looking at and confusing details in the evidence dumps? The looking “into the houses” was something that came from GZ’s previous NEN calls. Did the ghost writer try to fill in gaps to be able to fill out the book? Even so, Osterman is the “writer” and should rubberstamp every detail in that book.

      Osterman’s role was only supposed to be the upstanding Air Marshall and character witness for GZ. In the end, it probably doesn’t matter what Osterman says GZ said. It’s what the evidence can prove, right? Now if O’Mara had any hand in this book, that’s whole nuther can o’ legal worms, wouldn’t you think?

      • Hello WSI, yes I was labelled a troll by a regular poster on the professor’s blog…while the real culprit has resumed tweeting disparaging remarks and people’s email addesses… sigh…I am sure I am next on her hit list…but enough said about her for today, I am sure there is more to come.

        Great post btw, love the way you categorized the inconsistencies. I glanced over at Talkleft earlier and although I don’t subscribe to her defense of GZ at all, the lawyer there posted regarding the possible legal implication of the book which I found interesting in that it could be used to impeach GZ’s testimony if he were to ever take the stand.goi

        Also it seems as though the leak of some excerpts was not approved by the Osterman’s…so there is something strange going on. I was wondering if the information leaked on the internet could be used by the prosecution at this time.

  20. I am not that computer savy. I wish I could post what I have, a collage of sorts of Sondra and the lady from the 7-11. I don’t know how to do it. : (((

        • I vote no match on this one. The woman at the 7-11 is thinner than the current picture of SO. That picture of MO and SO was supposedly taken on their wedding day. They got married in 1996.
          http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-11-07/news/9611050391_1_michael-c-debra-y-james-h
          Back in 1996, SO was 21. She’s gained weight in 16 years and after pregnancy. I don’t think she would have gained that much weight in a few months (that taping was also done some time ago).

          Of course, I’m also a skeptic and never believed it was MO at the ATM either.

          • Okie Dokie
            Thanks for taking a look. I’m getting the hang of this now maybe I can do a better job of putting it together.
            : ^ ))

          • Hard to say, i wish the picture was bigger, I am almost blind, lol, but I would venture not a match.

            For what it’s worth, since you mentioned MO, I read a post from that Odessa girl that it is not MO at the bank……so many pieces to this puzzle.

            • @LeeLee, I know it’s disappointing to the conspiracy theorists, but I wouldn’t think that MO would be going so public if he had anything to do with the lead-up to the shooting itself. The OG lady has also said that the beefy security guy walking GZ out was some guy from the bond place. While she has no credibility about TM’s phone and other evidence on the case, in reading her posts, I tend to believe her on this one. That guy doesn’t look anything like MO as pictured in the TV promo. Then could all of our conclusions about him providing security for GZ be wrong? Given the recent drama about the book, I highly suspect there was a rift between the Ostermans and GZ or his family at some point after penning this book. There’s definitely something strange going on with the GZ family in any case. Despite being estranged from GZ, they were forced to come to his defense at the bond hearing and are regretting it ever since. It’s clear that GZ’s father and MO hooked up early on (i.e. going to the re-enactment together), and maybe RZ, Sr. was the one who got to read the early draft. But since the evidence dump was released with MO’s statements in there about how GZ was beaten by his mother and his father was a passive enabler to the abuse, the family probably didn’t take too kindly to having dirty laundry aired.

              About the use of the leaked manuscript by prosecution, I really can’t see how they’d use the actual details in it. It’s supposedly a stolen copy which could be altered by anyone and not considered a final published book. They couldn’t hold GZ accountable for text floating around the internet. What it COULD lead them to do I would think once the actual book comes out is to make comparisons with any changes to it and then question the reasons for those changes. Many inconsistencies can be attributed to influences by a ghostwriter, etc. Maybe they could make him make a statement under oath now to clarify the inconsistencies and THAT statement would then be added to the evidence? I don’t know if it’s hearsay and how that can be used directly against GZ. If it becomes clear that MO allowed a doctored story to come out, at the least his credibility as a character witness for GZ goes down the drain. Alright, enough of me yammering on about something (legal stuff) I know nil about. Please anyone with a legal mind please chime in….

    • Chad is w10. This was revealed in one of the lists of discovery. He is son of w7 Brandy Green. He is the one the Skittles were for. He was interviewed April 27, 2012 by T.C. O’Steen (and de la Rionda?) of the State Attorney’s Office.

      Chad will know when Trayvon left for the store, what he took with him, whether he had a key to let himself in. He might have called or text’d with Trayvon during the trip. I’ve heard he was playing a video game with headphones on so probably missed hearing the gunshot. He might have some sign of Trayvon having been there after the store.

      • Is Chad’s last name different from his mom? If it is, he wouldn’t be W10, as someone pointed out the witness list is alphabetical.

        He did have contact with TM. In the 2nd dump, he said he called (I believe called, not texted), and TM told him he was on his way home. Chad stated that he was playing video games with headphones in his room, which faces the front of the houses, so he did not hear or see anything. He waited up for his parents to tell them Trayvon had not returned then went to bed. His dad tried to contact him/his cousin. They went to bed, but called police in the morning after TM was still not home, and the cousin said TM was not with him.

  22. DeeDee’s phone interview with Attorney Crump was on Monday, March 19, 2012.

    I have deciphered 90% of it. The rest is such poor quality that I have my doubts about it for now. The sources all seem poor. We could work our way through together. It starts:

    Crump: OK. Attorney Crump and the family here. We saw from the phone records you and Trayvon talked pretty much all day. Can you just walk me through this day of uh how many times you talked to Trayvon that day and what kind of state of mind was he in. Talk loud for me.

    Dee Dee: We talked all day. Like I talked and texted with him. No text, yeah, but I talked to him.

    Any corrections are greatly appreciated. I used AxiomAmnesia. If anyone wants to have a try I’d like to know what she says between markers 00:52 and 01:06 where I have (unintelligible) below:

    00:52 DeeDee: He was, he was good, I mean. He was a happy boy. (unintelligible)
    Crump: OK, and then just tell me, tell me 01:06

    Different sound cards, speakers, and headphones make a difference. Most sound effects add distortion rather than clarity. I wonder if the frequencies of her voice could be isolated. Anybody know somebody who has access to a pristine copy of this interview?

    • :52-1:06 comes off really garbled for me with lots of background noise, but I think the last word is mom, so that’s really of no help – huh?

    • Whonoze has been the only person I know who listen to that interview in details.

      Whonoze, are you still around?

      • Still here.

        Can’t make out most of it. I’m still convinced ABC has a clean intelligible tape of the whole thing they’re not giving out, though I suspect they also gave Crump a copy. It seems (see my ‘Redaction by reduction’ post on the whonoze blog) that the State can satisfy discovery rules by giving out ANY kind of copy of evidence (e.g. a Xerox of a photo), no matter how inferior to the actual material in hand, so Corey might have a clean version of DeeDee/Crump as well, and just be concealing the fact. Why? I don’t know.

        Trying to parse the released recording of that interview actually hurts physically. All props to Screamin’ Jay for making the effort. I did listen to it a number of times, and while I couldn’t make out exact wording, I did (as I have reported) strongly feel I got the gist of the part where DeeDee was telling Crump about Trayvon ducking out of the rain, to be point where I became sure she was talking about the mailbox area at The Retreat, not, say, the apartment complex to the West.

        Beyond that, I’m waiting to see what SJ comes up with…

        • Benjamin Crump made it together with ABC news. So, he probably has a clear copy, if not the original. He gave it to the Department of Justice for their racial investigation, too. Mr. Crump is biased for the family, so his technique was to get DeeDee to tell the story against GZ. Other interviewers like John Batchelor are impartial.

          I’m going ahead with what is clear. DeeDee tells us quite a bit between the two interviews. The case is a matter of successive approximation. I’ll be adjusting my files as more becomes revealed to us.

          • SJ, my main man! I’m impressed that you were able to transcribe that much of the Crump/ABC News/ Dee Dee interview – it was hard to even listen to just a few times for me. Do you have a partial transcript you can share of just THIS interview? I see your “composite” version but I’m more curious to read what the Crump one was like alone.

            I also agree that there exists a clear recording somewhere besides what the SAO / Corey released to the public. I have no idea why the version the SAO released is such a poor copy but it seems that a Freedom of Information Act search should be submitted by someone, somehow. Maybe if it were filed against the Department of Justice there could be a result.

            I’m guessing that ABC provided the tech to make the original, and shared it with Crump but it could also be that Crump recorded at the same time to a separate device – the device he has in the press conference. That’s the only snippets I can really understand.

            Crump shared his recording with the DOJ, but how exactly did Corey’s office come to possess the recording? Did they get it from Crump, or ABC, or the DoJ?

            I think there is an detail that is falling through the cracks that might help explain Dee Dee’s story better and is worth keeping in mind. After TM left the mail kiosk, he reconnected with Dee Dee and this was BEFORE he ran behind the townhomes. I believe at that time GZ was either making a uTurn or else trailing TM with his vehicle and this is not only what causes TM to run, but is also something Dee Dee either vaguely understood or has communicated to John Bachelor/BDLR in the recording we can understand. Her dialect of English uses the phrase “behind” in a way that is hard to parse exactly, but she may be trying to say that the car was behind TM and in motion. I wish she had been asked more directly about this. She’s clearly speaking about at least two episodes of TM being followed, but IMO the first instance is when TM was walking and GZ was following in his car. This car-shadowing is where TM KNOWS he is being followed by the creepy guy on the cell phone, but the NEXT bit is when he first only suspects the guy is afoot and following him. IMO TM would never have seen GZ exit his car, only that a similar person was on foot behind him after TM ran away.

  23. i still feel sick in my stomach when i realise this child is never coming back. Through all the evidence and gz lies I hope his family find peace. Trayvon you deserved better, i hope the truth prevails.

  24. WSI,
    I thought about the gun being concealed in the waistband.
    I want to see where the pockets are located and how far low they are on his blue jean. Because, during reenactement, GZ says “I had my firearm on my right side hip” and he seems to me that he touches his hip at a place where there usually is no pocket.

    Moreover, earlier in the reenactment, he says that he thought that he put his cell phone in his pant pocket and then he slightly bends forward and slightly turns his head to look down his right pocket. He says he didn’t find his phone there were he use to put it. But, he doesn’t say that he found his his gun instead. That would be interesting, though.

    Furthermore, in the interview at the police station later on that same Monday, he tells the same story, that his that he looked for his phone in the front right pocket of his pant (where T. Smith found the gun & the holster) and that he had his gun on his right hip (he touches it again with his right hand).

    Without the image of his pant, I cannot exclude the possibility that GZ concealed the gun in his pocket. But honestly, GZ says that gun was not concealed in a pocket but in his pant on his hip. If that’s the case then at what point did he moved the holster in his pocket without putting blood on it?

    The best answer is that the gun was in his pocket and not concealed.

    • @tchoupi, you said “he tells the same story, that his that he looked for his phone in the front right pocket of his pant (where T. Smith found the gun & the holster) and that he had his gun on his right hip”

      Correct me if I misunderstood your statement there, but I believe that T. Smith found the gun and holster in Zimmerman’s waistband and not in his pocket (See my references and quotes below). I don’t know of any document/evidence that says that the gun was found in his pocket after the shooting.

      However, I can understand your suspicion about GZ maybe having his gun in his pocket initially when he got out of the truck. Awhile back, I read or saw a video where during the NEN call, someone interpreted the rustling sounds as GZ getting his gun out of the glove compartment. If that were the case, then he could have hastily shoved it into his pocket instead of his waistband when he went running after TM. However, I don’t think this can be proven. From a legal standpoint though, isn’t having a gun in your pocket still “concealed” like a woman having a gun in her handbag is “concealed”, or are there specific laws about where a man is supposed to keep the gun on his person? I don’t know. Of course, shoving a gun in your pocket as you run after a “suspicious person” shows a depraved mind, doesn’t it? A normal sane person doesn’t carry a gun around in his pocket going to Target.

      Whether the gun was in his pocket or his waistband, his claim of reaching for his phone to call 911 when he saw TM is BOGUS because 1) he already knew a cop was on the way and 2) he had a gun. He had always been itching to play Clint Eastwood (Make my day!).

      ********
      On page 15 of the 1st evidence dump:
      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/court-documents/discovery-documents-part-1-183-pages-5152012/
      T. Smith reports “Located on the inside of Zimmerman’s waist band, I retreived a black Kel-tec 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster”

      On the 23rd page of the 2nd evidence dump:

      Click to access Zimmerman-documents.pdf

      T. Smith said that “Zimmerman had a gun/holster on the right side inside the waistband of his pants.”

      • If he did actually have the gun drawn, or in a pocket for faster access etc, then putting it back in the holster after the shooting is a necessary piece of misdirection. …. if it is FOUND in the holster at the waistband, the assumption is that it CAME from there. Of course this itself is tampering with the crime scene, as the gun was originally on the ground. It would have been interesting to know WHERE.

  25. I’m anxiously awaiting the release of the official time stamps for the 911 calls, as I’ll get to do a little victory dance if I got them right by deduction way back when, and I’ll have to eat some crow if I made any major errors. (tchoupi seems to have come to very similar deductions independently, so at least I’m in good company one way or the other…)

    • You can of convinced me tow swap Mary C with JohnW6. So, but knowing that I expect the two to be just 6sec apart, it won’t be a huge mistake on my side.

          • @Loree
            “I will pass along your work to other sites”

            Hopefully, Leatherman’s blog since he’s an attorney. I’m thinking with the eye witness to the fight, the who followed who, who punched first is not relevant and maybe this young boy’s eye witness to the fight is why he dropped SYG.

            Off topic, I nominate Michelle’s shoulders for their very own cabinet position. Just wow and her dress. Double wow. Oh, yes, the speech was also lovely but those shoulders are in a class of their own.

    • Jay:

      I think for W11 you should find a method to distinguish when she is talking to the 911 operator, and when she is talking to Jeremy.

      Also, I suggest you do find some way to indicate passages where you are not sure what is being said from those that are clear. E.g. I don’t know what Jeremy says, but it’s NOT “It’s warned in this area.”

      • Right. That should say [unintelligible] for Jeremy. Thanks. I’ve got to see about update/replace in archive.org.

        Tchoupi must have done all this for his/her timeline. Due to redactions we still need to adjust timing. I’m not saying mine is right. I basically used audio I found online to start. It’s successive approximation. I love how you can learn by comparing them to each other in time. Keep in mind that the flashlights W13 and Officer Smith both came in on the sidewalk from 2861 RVC. So, those north like W18 and to the west like W6 will probably see the light before the ones on the east like w19.

        • Jay, any bits like “it’s warned in this area” that you are not sure about, use a different text colour. Blue, say. Then at the bottom of the column for that witness all the speculations/possibilities can be collected. You could also colour code side talk with other witnesses, say in green.

          As the tapes are timed for tape duration, not real time, you could also add the tape time for the controversial bits, so people could listen for themselves and make their own guesses.

          On my copy I colour-highlighted a row across for the moment of the shot, and another row for the first mention of a police presence. The first mention of flashlights could be marked, too.

          A couple of the tapes seem too truncated, eg where there’s only 1 or 2 seconds missing for the giving of the address. I’ll finish marking up my copy and post it back to the site, if that can be done.

          • aussiekay, I’m also wanting to compile questions for all the witnesses. Things that their interviews left out. Additional things we need to know. Cross questioning to verify what other witnesses said.

            I have a few more ideas on how to get the timed transcriptions of the police calls to be right after each redaction edit. The sections between the edits are correct and are easily moved down in the spreadsheet. This is a sub-project in itself.

    • @Jay, this is excellent indeed! Time well spent. Before this spreadsheet gets passed around, can I just suggest that you “redact” the witness names on the spreadsheet? Or use initials and witness numbers, or at least just use their first names? And also abbreviate the street names on the addresses as TTL and RVC? I know this information is “out there” but it’s not readily so. I don’t know if all of these people have moved from these addresses also. The less that we contribute to splashing these people’s personal info out there, the better. I know if I were ever a witness in a case, I wouldn’t want anything about the case to forever follow me around when people look me up in a Google search. Don’t you agree?

    • (For like the 100th time) Thank you! This is great, SJ. Just a quick correction, W6 said rock, not rocket, so you might want to fix that in the doc.

    • This is just brilliant brilliant work Jay, thanks so much.

      So W3 didnt see anything before the shot, just heard yelling and the gun shot. After the gun shot they say “Oh my God, the guy on top had a white t-shirt”. So since in real time this witness did not see anything before the shot “white t-shirt” guy is Zimmerman on top of Trayvon.

      7.22.47 Witness 18 says how she heard 2 men talking and wondered what they were doing in the rain. She then says it looked like they were talking or maybe wrestling. So is that confirmation that the wrestling started while they were standing up perhaps? If they were on the ground then you wouldn’t confuse that with talking, so they must have been standing when the wrestling started, probably gz trying to detain Trayvon.

      I know these calls have been out there forever but it really helps to see them side by side like this Jay, thanks for your hard work.

      • jo, I thought about what you said about w3. I sense two interpretations for her location when saying “white tee-shirt.” My first impression was that she was locked in her front room looking for the police to arrive, calling here family, and such. From there she remembered in her mind about the whiteness of the shirt and told dispatch. Did she look while still on 911 call? If she was actually looking out the back window at the time she says, “Oh, my God. The guy on top had a white tee-shirt”, around 7:19:31, then you have caught another witness looking out when they said they didn’t.

        These are conflicting but, both are strong possibilities. I’ll have to study it more. This would affect my composite for w3. When she saw Officer T. Smith he may have just turned onto TTL. I don’t even think he knocked on her door. Whenever he got there she would have perhaps felt safe enough to look at the scene a second time. The policeman would keep the shooter from breaking into her downstairs. Fear from that idea can be heard on her call after the dispatcher asks, “Do you hear squealing of tires or anything?” and in one of her interviews she explains, “So, I’m assuming he was going to try and run somewhere when he was finished. So, that’s why I called because I was scared. I was here by myself.”

        Is this trivial? Maybe not.
        1) if she saw the white-shirt before the shot and was speaking to dispatch from memory, the white shirt could be Taaffe. I think John(w6) saw them, then w3 saw them, and finally Austin (w14). They could have been seeing different things.
        2) if she was looking out after the shot and telling dispatch as she saw him, then the white shirt is probably GZ. By that time, GZ had gotten up and was over Trayvon’s body or away from it. I’ll have to check the timing of all this.

        • hi jay, thanks for the response. I’m thinking she saw zim on top of Trayvon after the shot, when zim was “frisking” him. It might explain “white tee-shirt” guy being on top and confuse it with being during the fight…..she remembers a white tee shirt on top, but did not mention it during the call because she only heard the altercation before the shot.

          Also Jay, what do you think of the comment about 2 men arguing or maybe wrestling from w18? If they were on the ground then there would be no question if they were arguing or wrestling…they would have to be wrestling. So when w18 says arguing or maybe wrestling it tells me they were still on their feet which once again throws GZ’s story of being king hit out the window (there are many reasons why i don’t believe he was king hit….the fact that the altercation ended so far south of where he was apparently smashed into the turf one of them, but this is a witness account that they were arguing/wrestling and not one person smashing the life out of another). Thanks xx

          • Sounds like it. At the moment I feel like the scarecrow in Wizard of Oz. Need sleep and my brain is getting fried.

            Tell you what. We have lots of explanation given by W18 that will help verify this. A 14 minute police call. She gave written statements to SPD officer Mead and private investigator John Wright. She was interviewed by Serino, Anderson Cooper, Ashleigh Banfield, and Gilbreath. I’ll upload transcriptions of these soon.

            • “Need sleep and my brain is getting fried.”

              Welcome to the fried brains club!

          • @Jo –

            W3 didn’t go back to the window after her initial look before calling 9-1-1 (unless she’s being untruthful which I doubt) and the gunshot went off after she’d left the window and while she was on the 9-1-1 call. She mentioned the white tee-shirt while on the 9-1-1 call. What makes you think she saw what she said she saw (white tee-shirt) after the gunshot?

            • hi CSFC. The operator asks a couple of time “did you see anything” and there is no response and then at 7:18:18 the operator asks “Ok. Stay on the line with me and just update me. Did you see anything at all, or you just heard screaming? W3: I heard screaming and then one gunshot. Dispatch: Ok.” W3 said later that the guy in the white tshirt was on top, couldn’t see who white tshirt was on top of and was asked did they get up and run and W3 said i don’t know i merely came to the phone and rang you. The gunshot went off when they were on the phone. It’s hard to tell because at first they said they only heard screaming and a gunshot. Later they mention the white tshirt so did w3 look out before the shot or perhaps after the shot while on the phone they had a peak and white tshirt was on top then.

            • also when dispatch say they have people on the way W3 says that they see the police now (very soon after the shot so was probably witness john) so they did look out very soon after the shot when GZ was probably on top frisking trayvon. .

            • @Jo –

              Disregard for the moment the analysis shown here at Axiom Amnesia (which is a compiled summary of the NEN and the statements) and listen to the actual NEN call: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-3-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

              The call is not very long (approx 4 mins). W3 calls and calmly states “police please” to get them to respond to the screaming. About 10-12 seconds later, (@.25) she gets really excited and her voice changes as she says “yes hurry there was just a gunshot”.

              Approximately 51 seconds later (@1:06), W3 sees a policemen (from her front window, not where Zimmerman is out back). W3 then explains that the officer needs to go to the back of her house. The dispatch even says “tell me so I can tell them”.

              Each time she is asked about anything occurring after the gunshot, she says she doesn’t know because she ran to call 9-1-1 while the screaming was still occurring.

            • i thought she said she didn’t see anything she only heard the yelling and then the shot. Or did i miss something and she says she looked out before calling?

    • Screaming jay, thank you so much for this. I had not realized the young boy saw the fight. I believe that must be the eye witness Serino was referring to ( actually figured he was bluffing GZ) in his interview. The young boy didn’t witness the actual gunshot but he clearly witnessed up close the fight and who was yelling and who was winning, who was terrified.
      Thank heaven his dog saved him from the actual killing. I hope he has received some therapy.
      Very grateful for everyone’s dedication.

      • “Thank heaven his dog saved him from the actual killing. I hope he has received some therapy. Very grateful for everyone’s dedication.”

        Ditto that!

      • I just listened to w14, Austin’s interview / Serino and not sure what changed but he says he only saw one person and that person was wearing red. So he either didn’t actually see the fight as is he says on the 911 call sheet or he changed. He seems very nervous and reticent. So sorry good people I’m an idiot for putting my 2 cents in based just on the sister’s, w15, words to 911 operator. Based on that I retract my hopeful insight. I think what they said to 911 operator is called an excited utterance said in the heat of the moment (in legal parlance).

        However, I wasn’t mistaken on saying Ms. Obama’s shoulders deserve their own cabinet position. WOW is such an understatement 🙂

        • W18 also says he put his hand on his head. Actually she describes it as him bending forwards and putting his hand on his head the way somebody would do if he was looking at something at a distance.

          • @Amsterdam –

            “bending forwards”

            Just like the blood evidence shows. Zimmerman can’t prove his blood flowed any way other than foward… towards his face as if he leaned down and was not on his back.

        • Love, love, love Michelle Obama’s arms and her transition from a mere beautiful person into a physically polished and still beautiful person to round out who she’s always been.

  27. Don’t recall if this was discussed, but I am having trouble with what Mr. Zimmerman says Listen forward from 7:55, the remarks come up about the 8:00
    Why would he say such a thing. Did GZ tell him he was with someone and he wants to know if the state knows?
    Any thoughts….

    • That is weird. It sounds like he’s trying to ask if they have anymore advice or info, but he doesn’t finish the thought before they start to tell him they’re working on it. He then goes into how there’s nothing he can do other than sit and watch the news… “then all of a sudden, well, maybe he was on patrol with someone else and something else happened.” Where is he getting that from??? Is he trying to say that was going around on the news…because I certainly don’t remember that.

      Thanks for pointing that out, Loree!

      • Its weird. I am searching for stories prior to that interview March 19th.
        I like you don’t recall anything regarding him being on watch just going to the Target store.

    • I believe he’s trying to say he expects that to be the next thing he’ll see on the news, as an example of ‘crazy things’ that are being said in the media. That is, in context, he’s saying that would be nonsense. And the “and something else happened” i think refers to the news digging up something bad about GZ BESIDES the events of 2/26. But Robert Sr. is a Zimmeman, so maybe he picked that particular example for a reason. My guess would be that the ‘someone else” is a figurative reference to Mark Osterman, who Robert would know because they were hanging together during the ‘re-enactment’, and becuase GZ was staying at MO’s house. He’s not admitting Osterman was involved. it’s like he’s saying “Why these pit vipers are so awful, the next thing they’ll say is that Mark was involved in something bad, too!” Which may be ironic, intentionally or unintentionally…

    • i haven’t seen this before. Seems like he is frustrated with the media and is complaining to the police about all the stories out there and wants the police to come out and say what happened (well what george said happened). I think after 7.55 he is talking about another story he’s heard, making a point that all of a sudden george is on patrol with someone else and something else happened, pointing out some of the stories out there as he obviously believes GZ’s version (spending too much time on the internet). He believes it happened exactly the way gz said it did (or at least one of the versions gz has told) and is thinking that george is not going to get charged and everyone is going to go ape shit unless the police come out and tell everyone what “really” happened….of course turns out george WAS charged and the story is gonna come out in court.

    • That is an extraordinary quote from Robert Zimmerman Sr. you have found! Here he is, whining Walter Brennen style about his out-of-control son:

      “There’s nothing I can do, you know, except, look at the news and then, all of a sudden . . .
      Well, maybe he was on patrol with somebody else, and something else happened.
      Or, you know, I don’t know, but every day almost . . .”

      So George was on patrol with somebody that night? Oh my. How else could it be that he could be on patrol with someone else unless he had been on patrol with someone the first time? And then what were you expecting Robert? Another murder? Were you expecting your son to carry on with his NW vigilantism?

      • Thank you Marilyn.
        It begs the questions, why would you say something like that unless you are on a fishing for what the state knows. I just don’t get the Zimmermans. He does the same thing GZ does. I believe there is an art to get people to reveal things by you saying something to get them to talk. If I wanted to know something but didn’t want to right out and ask I would start off by saying you know such and such and let you take it from there. Cops do it all the time. Bosses do it. Husbands and wives do it. Some are better at it then others.

      • @Marilyn, see my post above about timing of Frank Taaffe in the media. Before jumping to conclusions, let’s consider that he was reacting to/mentioning other people’s theories on the internet saying that GZ was not alone, conspiracy theories that abound to this day. It’s the chicken or the egg thing.

        • @marilyn, I just realized my reply to you might have sounded kinda snarky. Didn’t mean to be. I guess I should clarify that similar to what Whonoze just said, my take on what RZ Sr said was he was watching the media or reading the net, and all of a sudden people are saying this and saying that, such as GZ was out patrolling with somebody else and something else other than what GZ told him actually happened. He’s confused and frustrated. Since Taaffe came out in the media before the recording of RZ, I’m guessing that people commenting on the local media sites were already suspecting Taaffe as being involved somehow. Just my 2 cents. By the chicken or the egg thing, I meant it would be ironic for a theory to come out in the net, bounce off RZ, come back here and then land back in his mouth via this recording. That was the same problem I think with the video of Brandi saying that TM was on her porch and then somebody shot him. She made assumptions without being a witness, it got on tape and people jumped on that comment. Based on that comment, the pro-GZ people have even gone so far as to theorize that TM made it home, changed clothes (I guess he happens to have multiple dark hoodies) and then come back out to find GZ. All in an effort to explain the missing couple of minutes. But I digress…….

          • There were assorted “two people” theories from the first mention of “White TeeShirt”. One side was theorising an unknown assistant/patrol buddy, the other was claiming Chad or Tracy helping TM with the attack.

            • I remember hearing the Sanford police got there early and tasered poor Trayvon as GZ held him down. Supposedly those electrical bolts can be heard on the first 911 call. That is what Trayvon was screaming in pain from. Hearing that really got me wondering about his case. I don’t believe it, though. And I don’t think it was ever mentioned here.

    • Thanks, Loree. I don’t remember hearing this one all the way through til you pointed out this talk about someone else being with George Zimmerman. It would be so ironic if the source of the “conspiracy” turns out to be Robert Zimmerman!

  28. Well I guess we can check here at bcclist. When did we start theories of another possible person with him or a tip off…

    • I didn’t think it was until FT came out in the media… I’d say not until 2+ months after 2/26

      • In the media it was all about him not getting arrested. His comment would of made more sense much later. that interview was about 2 weeks after the shooting.

        • That’s why I think it’s weird/interesting. Like it was mentioned, maybe he was just saying what he thought the next wacky idea would be since he knew MO was on scene, etc. Still think it’s a bit interesting to come out with that exact scenario. I don’t think anyone really thought this was anything more than an amped up, over zealous dude who was trying to protect his community, but fucked up. It was when his friends and family came out that really drew attention and the theories into overdrive. They should have all just kept their mouths shut, lol.

          • @qetno, “They should have all just kept their mouths shut”

            It’s GZ that should have kept his mouth shut, if he had even two marbles in his head. I think like many upon first hearing the story, I thought OMG crazy vigilante. The more I read and heard what came out of GZ’s own mouth, the more I thought, this crazy guy doesn’t know he’s hanging himself. And the circus continued thru the Hannity interview and now by proxy through Osterman’s book. It’s his ego that led him to shoot TM and his ego that’s giving the prosecution plenty to work with. While I haven’t whole hearted subscribed to any theory about someone helping GZ or that he went on a specific “hunt” that night, it’s clear that if he hadn’t run into TM that night, he eventually would have shot some other poor unsuspecting kid, as he was convinced every young black male was up to no good. While his family may not be having any fun, I’ll bet he’s relishing this attention and whatever “support” that he’s getting from the nuts out there.

            On second thought, keep on talking GZ, keep on talking…..

  30. Have a look at DeeDee’s composite sequence:
    http://is.gd/RTw84C

    This next step is to put all of what each witness has said into their own merged sequence and time them. I need this in order to put them side by side as I did in the 911 calls spreadsheet. DeeDee’s two interviews when put together in this way read like a good drama novelette.

    I’d like your ideas on the times the sections in her composite took place.

    • Another text coding suggestion Jay:

      Can you use different text forms (plain, italic, bold) and/or different fonts to distinguish what parts of your composite are

      a: direct quotes from the Crump interview
      b. paraphrases from the Crump interview
      c: direct quotes from the BdlR interview
      d. paraphrases from the BdlR interview
      e: editorial summaries, [maybe in brackets?] — I’m assuming DeeDee didn’t actually say “I recall the conversations were in the morning, in the afternoon, and all through the day until the final call.”

      • simpler request: is there a link to just the transcript of the crump interview?

        Thanks again for the work…

        • I’ve created a folder for the case files:
          http://is.gd/Y1fVZ2

          Now you can see the Crump interview as I transcribed it from AxiomAmnesia.com. There are location markers I put in to help as I continue to work on the transcription. You can use them to locate and listen. I will be adding other witness files tomorrow. I have transcripts and composites for several witnesses.

      • I’ll color code in pass 2 of my project. Great idea. I still need a couple of weeks to just get it all in place. Working on the times right now. I realized today that I need a new section between Found and Argument. It will be called Fast Walking Chase.

        I did not add editorial summaries in my composites. Though, I’m interested in yours. Here’s how the processing works. When the raw interview goes:

        BDLR: OK, and do you recall whether the conversations were in the morning, or in the afternoon, or all through the day until the final until the final… In other words, did you talk to him earlier that day?
        Dee Dee: In the morning.
        BDLR: OK…alright…
        Dee Dee: All day, it seem…
        BDLR: OK, you talked to him during the day?
        Dee Dee: Yeah.

        It becomes “I recall the conversations were in the morning, in the afternoon, and all through the day until the final call.”

        Admittedly, they were his words. He is not impartial. He is leading her. But, she signs off on them. I think the result is accurate. I feel we need to process a little for efficiency. I’m more concerned about getting things in the wrong place and unintentionally changing significance or meaning that way. The witnesses don’t talk in chrono order. And the interviewer asks things out of order.

  31. According to Screamin’ Jay’s transcript, Dee Dee said the following:

    DeeDee: he knew [09:28] that he was on the phone to somebody so he was about to make a run for it from the back. cause somebody was following him very close [09:41] with the car.

    IMO this is a very significant puzzle piece that has been GREATLY under-appreciated. If she heard enough from Trayvon to know that this happened, it fills in the gaps to give a very clear picture of what is actually happening during the NEN call.

    I had worried that the call dropping and picking up again had created a hole where she didn’t know what happened between the clubhouse and the cut thru as the two traveled down Twin Trees Lane. She does’t mention this car-to-pedestrain chase specifically in the interview with BDLR.

    Even just the detail that Trayvon had waited under the mail kiosk was enough to use to deduce that TM was chased by a moving car – the timing of the action described is such that this had to be the case – but it’s a HUGE boost for the prosecution’s case that there is a real live ear witness to that part of the events of the evening.

    It looks like in addition to the audio fidelity problems with the SAO’s copy of the Crump/ABC/Dee Dee interview that there is a gap in the recording as well, a significant one where the portion of the story that should contain the contemporaneous reciting of the move from mail kiosk to cut thru is missing. But the subject is broached again in a later part of the interview, thank goodness.

    GZ is caught in a pack of lies regarding his movements from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area, and this final puzzle piece, which is news to me, seals the prosecution’s case insofar as showing that George has ZERO credibility whatsoever. It now 100% provable to a jury that George lied repeatedly to investigators about all his actions prior to exiting his car. Why should anyone believe a word he says about what happened next?

    Thanks again S.Jay for transcribing that interview. I’d missed it somehow before. Of all the news in the last month, I’m thinking this is the most important thing I’ve learned about the case, hands down.

    • That’s how I perceived this from Serino’s 3rd part of interviewing GZ on Feb. 29. Serino and Singleton are playing back the NEN tape:

      (plays tape 1:34 to 1:50)
      Serino: What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
      Zimmerman: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
      Serino: So you’re…
      Singleton: OK, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
      Zimmerman: No.
      Serino: So you’re ahead of him?
      Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.
      Serino: OK, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were you were behind him?
      Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

      • i admit i haven’t listened to all of the interviews (as i have explained previously it’s impossible with 2 kids under 4 ), but this sounds pretty significant. Without hearing it in context that line from Serino “ok, so yu walked to your car, then walked along this path and youwere behind him? Yes Sir. WTF? Is he saying when he was returning to his car after accidently going in the same direction as the “suspect” he was all of a sudden behind Trayvon? Contradicting what he said about Trayvon coming up behind him? I’m confuzzled?@!

        • No the pronouns are messed up in the heat of the questioning. The detectives may have meant when Trayvon walked by GZs car (supposedly) the first time ( near the clubhouse.).

          I can cite chapter and verse now of the whole sequence of how GZ invented his false narrative, and the third/final questioning session is indeed where his whole house of cards falls down, but at the moment I’m on a mobile device…

          GZ has a pattern to his lies: when in doubt, leave it out. He’s omitted for certain the exact circumstances of TMs walk from the mail kiosk to his eventual run into the cut thru sidewalk completely BECAUSE he is the cause of the teen’s panic – he chased the youth with his car in an apparently menacing slo-mo fashion down TTL.

          This scenario lines up precicely with the actions and sounds on the NEN call. GZs alternate account(s) are impossible and self contradicting, and when he is finally played the NEN call recording he emphatically and repeatedly insists he is “at the clubhouse” when he was, indeed “at the clubhouse” only not in the front parking lot, but instead parked at the first curve on TTL opposite the mail kiosk, a spot he himself drew on a map Singleton presented him the previous day. He marked the spot as he told his false narrative in stages but quickly amended it by crossing it out a he got to the next part if his tale and realized it wasn’t going to fit. Immediately after moving the placement he tells the “doubled back/ circled the car/ hand in waistband” story, obviously an exculpatory and false version of the true events. Note also GZ leaves out the running away in all his accounts and only speaks of it when first prompted. When in doubt he leaves it out.

          (just like the movements south of the T Atr left out of every account until he’s confronted with the physical space in the walk – thru “re-emactment”).

          • @willisnewton –

            Agreed! Zimmerman leaves it out in order to think of some new dimension to add to cover the bases he hadn’t pre-thunk. Running becomes skipping after Serino questioned him and pushed him on “he’s running to get away from you” (or something like that). Remember Zimmerman responded “I don’t know” to the question from Serino prior to that which was “what kind of run was it”. When Zimmerman said he didn’t know, Serino pressed the issue and said this is kind of important, yadda, yadda, and this ain’t no stolen bicycle investigation, dude!

            • When in doubt George leaves it out.

              He never volunteered that trayvon ran away, and only spoke of it when prompted. Were it not for what he said on the NEN call recording, the SPD would never known Trayvon ran away. GZ told dispatch “sh8t, he’s running” and “he ran” but for whatever reason felt he could leave this out later when he spoke to SPD investigators. Either he forgot he said it or else he hoped the NEN calls were not recorded. All we know for sure is that he lied repeatedly in trying to give the impression that TM didn’t run away from his MOVING car on TTL.

          • He is a terrible liar. He also has a pattern where he switches places with his opponent.
            His lies all seem to have a purpose. I think the bullshit story about him trying to detain Trayvon after the shot, was created to explain away the fact, Selma saw him on top of Trayvon right after the shot.
            What do you think about the line that he went for his right pocket to get his phone to call 911? That one is just beyond rediculous. So Trayvon said ” what is your fucking problem” and GZ replies ” I don’t have a problem” while getting his phone to call 911.
            You walk away and then you call 911.
            I think he may have reached for his gun and told this story in case anybody saw him doing that.

            • This “I don’t have a problem” sounds suspiciously like what he WISHED he had said as he drew his gun. We don’t know what really happened, but in a wannabe cop fantasy, I’m sure someone like GZ would love to have a Dirty Harry-worthy tagline to utter as he unholstered his weapon.

              What we do know is that Dee Dee describes the exchange differently, and residents SEEM to have heard an exchange of words that went longer than what GZ describes. I’d love to hear the residents asked directly if whats your problem/i dont have a problem/now you do or whatever GZ claims is how short the exchange they heard was. I’m guessing they heard an exchange that was longer than that.

              Here’s another wild speculation: what if the “white T shirt” spotted was the white DOG belonging to Austin Brown, who lost it’s leash momentarily?

              There is so much we will never know, and so many things that are possible. Yet we know what GZ claims, and we know much of what he claims is NOT possible. That is what really counts, IMO.

              Again, glad to see you posting here, Amsterdam. Your input is valued by me!

            • @Willisnewton,
              Thanks, always appreciate your input.
              In the first interview with w11, when Singleton starts asking some questions, w11 says the initial exchange sounded like “what are you doing”. She thinks the went back and forth about 3 times. Pretty much backs up Deedee’s statement.

      • GZ also told a version where he “pulled adjacent to the clubhouse” that may be referring to this moment in time and/or part of his false narrative. It’s more like a fruedian slip or something, and I’ve not figured it out completely – he does this in the “voice stress analysis” session I think. This video is long and not fully transcribed at justicequest site.

        Suffice to say, IMO he has serious issues regarding this portion of the evening and his stories don’t align well. However, if you start with a foundation of his NEN call recording and the idea that TM waited at the mailboxes, and then listen to GZ’s statements in order, IMO a clear picture emerges of not only what really happened, but how and why GZ let himself get caught up in his lies. His basic goal is to omit the actions surrounding his and TM’s move from the clubhouse are to the cut thru – in his very first interview with Singleon he skips that part completely in a rush to get to the part where he grappled with the teen. It’s here that he first says the dispatcher told him to move to keep observing TM – but he tells it as his excuse to get out of the vehicle.

        Singleton is no fool, and after a pause comes back with a map that GZ marks on as they talk more, and quickly he’s caught having to explain how TM got past him if indeed he ever parked at the clubhouse parking lot. It’s here that GZ has to “double down” on his lie and so he switches his claim about being instructed to move in order to observe the teen to a different action – his leaving the clubhouse after TM supposedly passes his car.

        It’s also here in the second interview that GZ marks the spot on the map that resolves contradiction and explains inconsistencies and aligns the actions of the NEN call and matches what Dee Dee says, and also seems to match what tchoupi says is going on in the clubhouse pool videos, too regarding a u turn on TTL. This position is at the first bend on TTL, and I’m utterly convinced this is what really happened. But after making this mark, GZ continues his story and quickly realizes he must cross this position out and substitute the “final” parking space instead, the one that is consistent with his “TM doubled back/ hand in waistband/ circled my car” false narrative that cannot be reconciled with his own statements or the NEN call.. It’s just after crossing out this logical position that he tells the “circled my car” tale for the first time. Like a schoolboy, he lies when it’s convenient and forgets that he isn’t being consistent from one telling to the next.

        Either Dee Dee, having no knowledge of the geography or it’s importance to this aspect to the case, and without access to GZ’s statements to SPD has invented her story (which supports the proof that GZ is lying) or else GZ is lying to cover up what he did. Of course the CT is that Dee Dee was “coached” but it’s funny how much more damage she could do elsewhere if she had chosen to perjure herself…

        In other words, GZ is caught dead-to-rights lying to investigators and the state can prove it using only two things from Dee Dee – that TM waited by the mail kiosk and that he told Dee Dee that the creepy guy followed him in his car. One destroys GZ’s credibility and the other speaks to “depraved mind.”

        xxxxxxxx

        • I think Tchoupi is right about the the truck slowly driving past the mail area and stopping at the first bend on TTL. I don’t think the car made a u turn, but that a second car is driving west on TTL while Zimmerman is following Trayvon east.
          A couple of reasons.
          The clubhouse videos had timestamps included. They didn’t make any sense because they began at 6:30 pm. Those timestamps made a lot of sense after the second evidence dump which said the clock on the video was 18 min slow. That means they begin at 6:48 pm and not at 6:46.
          That places the rearlights pulling away from the poolarea on the eastpool video going east on TTL, very close to the the time where I think Zimmerman started following Trayvon in his car.
          If you start the video at 6:48 pm, the rearlights can be seen between 7:10:50 and 7:11:09. Trayvon starts running at 7:11:40. You can see the lights of a car going west on ttl at 7:11:32.
          On the eastpoolhall video you can see a car passing the mailarea going towards the north gate at 7:11:42. The lights that Tchoupi says are the headlights of the car making a uturn can be seen in the eastpoolhall video at 7:10:33. That places those lights before the car makes a uturn. Those lights can’t be the headlights of the car that drove slowly past the mailarea.
          Zimmerman either followed Trayvon back towards the North gate on RVC or he followed him east on TTL and another car drove west and north on TTL at the same time Zimmerman was driving east.

    • My concern about the existence of a new judge is that all decisions about motions regarding gag orders can be revisited now. Judge Lester seemed to be handling the Sunshine laws well enough but now both sides can once again try to force the media out of the equation when it comes to discovery. The SAO is motivated to keep the discovery materials out of the public eye because it helps shield thier trial strategy for longer I think, and the defense has shown they prefer for GZs false narrative to be the only version of events in circulation.

      Let’s hope the new judge lets old motions stand in regards to the public’s right to discovery. I hate to say it but I dont trust the prosecution fully. I think they are politically motivated to gain a convictiion, yes but I’m not sure they care to go about it in the manner I’d like them to- openly and with no stone unturned.

  33. I’ve uploaded some more witness transcriptions:
    http://is.gd/Y1fVZ2

    Included are composite narratives for witnesses 1, 2, and 3. You might also notice the beginnings of the whole case spreadsheet. I’m way behind on it. That’s where the composites will be able to be compared. Eventually, when it is complete, you might want to download it so you can move the columns around to see any two or more witnesses together. My guess is that we’ll be able to work out all the timing and see the panoramic view by doing that.

    I’m trying to keep my Trayvon family bias out of this as much as possible. It doesn’t really matter what I think. These are tools for you to use to work on the case in depth.

  34. For those of you who can’t stomach visits to the nuthouse, just FYI, they’ve been posting excerpts from the unedited non-final version of MO’s book. Beyond the events on the night of the shooting, everything else is basically the “saga of GZ’s plight” as he was hiding from the media and others looking to hunt him down. This latest story just tells us how clueless these people are. MO recounts how one day (Mar 23) when GZ was getting ready to leave town, he spotted 2 cars with several black people blocking his driveway. GZ went running back in the house yelling for Shellie to get her gun ready in case they break down the door. MO went to look and recognized them as friends of the neighbor.

    If you’ll remember, I told you guys these excerpts are being provided by somebody in the GZ camp who got an early copy of the book and is now unhappy with what’s in it. This anonymous poster refutes the account above by saying that there was only 1 car, not 2, and it never blocked the driveway. There was also only one black man driving it and he was reading a piece of paper probably looking at the address.

    MO meant for this story to tell how fearful GZ got, but it makes him look like more of a racist paranoid nut than before. Of course, let us think of how fearful GZ made all of the young black boys in the country of just walking to the store……

    • These supposed extracts also claim GZ threw up during the final interview session, the one where he is played the NEN call recording. I didn’t hear audio of him vomiting, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. He’s caught in many lies during this session and is obviously under great duress.

      I’m taking these book excerpts with a grain of salt at the moment, but as more and more are leaked I have to admit they are intriguing, and to see the treepers fall upon themselves is always somewhat entertaining. One possible source of the leak is an O’mara “intern” who is tasked with reading blogs and making reports to the defense team. O’Mara was sent a copy of an early incomplete draft according to the leaker but of course that’s not possible to confirm.

      The prose has an obvious ghost writer flavor to it, and I don’t think the ghost writer knows what details are significant and what details are not. Osterman himself comes off as not the sharpest stick in the bunch, either.

      xxxxxxxxxx

    • WSI, does this person contest the part about GZ running into the house yelling for his wife to get her gun?

      • Exactly! The blacks are coming, the blacks are coming… Get yer gun, honey. LOL

        What a bunch of fearful nuts!!

        • Whether it was one black person or a group of black people, it makes GZ appear to be a paranoid, racist nut; however, at least if it was a large group of people blocking the driveway and leering at the house that would appear more menacing than one person in a car near the house. Was he not worried about any of the white people in front of the house or driving by the house?

          The “that’s racist” kid would be saying “THAT’S RACIST!” right about now. LOL.

      • Even the real (former) black panthers condemned the actions of the tiny group that called itself the “new black pAnther party” and most assume these fools are paid agent provocateurs since almost everything they do blows up in their face. Yes, they printed sone Wanted posters but afaik there has yet to be a credible threat of violence against the Zimmerman clan that has been recorded or turned in to investigators. MOM is trying to get mileage and sympathy for GZ with these supposed threats but in truth the best he’s been able to substantiate to police is a second hand report of a call his secretary recieved at their office but did not record.

        I’m willing to admit I could be wrong but I’ve seen nothing “real” as far as proof of threats against the GZ family. Instead, over two million people pushed peacefully for justice, and thousands rallied peaceably in cities across America, and the parents of the slain unarmed teen spoke continually for calm, peace and justice.

        • You can contrast that with this quote from the book. It’s MO trying to convince GZ not to leave their house and go out of state ***** “I said, “No, George, you can’t do this. I am prepared to handle any threat, even men with guns. I’m ready for them.” ” ***** GZ had a lot of help with his paranoia.

          • If you have never seen the classic 1930s screwball comedy HIS GIRL FRIDAY, do yourself a favor and rent the DVD sometime. There is a great parody of how the media and the police and even the criminals themselves conspire to make hay for the purposes of selling papers, getting re-elected and in general running roughshod over the populace bursting with their own ruthless self-interest disguised as civic-minded good spirit.

            I’m not saying the GZ case resembles this satire, but it does contain a classic scene where a reporter posits a theory of “production for use,” as a motive for a shooting. In other words as long as they keep making handguns, people are going to want to shoot them off at each other. That seems to be the mentality that GZ and Osterman shared. A gun is a tool, and a handgun is a tool made to kill someone. Anyone.

            There’s an old quote variously attributed but it goes something like this, “to a kid with a hammer in his hand, the whole world starts looking like a nail pretty soon.”

      • @qetno, the anonymous poster said that the characterization of GZ running into the house to get a gun was false. In refuting that part of the book, he said GZ “went back into house and was talking about the decision whether to call the FDLE contact that he was given, or whether to just leave quickly.”

        The “facts” in this book can’t be relied on, but it does tell us more about the mindset of MO, the great mentor. GZ got friggin’ scared seeing a black man in a car? Was he also on the phone and slow crawling up behind his butt? NO? Oh, just parked looking at a piece of paper in broad daylight.

        BTW, according to the book, GZ’s dog is named Oso. Crazy OG lady has also mentioned that her stepdaughter’s rottie died. So if MO/SO had a rottweiler, and GZ got one too and named it Oso, what does that tell you? GZ wanted to be everything MO is, a cop with a “manly” dog and a gun. If MO had nothing to do with the shooting itself, he sure contributed a lot to the lead-up. After the burglaries, any other friend would have just said, here’s some money buddy, break your lease and move to another complex. Instead, it’s “here’s a dog and a gun, go do some city huntin’ ”

        The drama as it has unfolded suggests that after GZ left their house, he had less and less contact with MO/SO (i.e., MO was probably not providing security). GZ went along with the book thinking that it was just going to be about how they had nice dinner parties together or went shooting on the range. But then it was given to O’Mara, and somebody realized, hey, MO’s talking about x, y and z, which is either all wrong or true, either way looks really bad for us. But then it was too late, it had gone to the editor/publisher. This last posting especially details things that only GZ himself (or Shellie) could deny because no one else was there. Therefore, this anonymous poster has to be someone in GZ’s family sending the email to the nuthouse to try to do damage control. So sad (insert fake crocodile tears) maybe GZ and MO are no longer BFFs?

        • I’m sorry, but one black or two blacks or even 3-4 in a car parked out front being viewed as a threat for doing nothing more than reading a piece of paper is a sign of the fear of a ignorant, fearful racists. Why call FDLE or leave hurriedly?

          If I’m reading what you’re sharing correctly, both the author and Zimmerman’s defenders are racists and don’t know it. I have said all along that Zimmerman was probably surprised to find that he holds racists views and probably didn’t know it due to the company he sought and kept. And now we have a statement from Zimmerman’s female cousin (the one he molested) that she believes Zimmerman’s family holds racist views.

          • @CSFC, you’re right, some of them are in denial. And then there’s Gladys who was honest to outright say that she is racist, according to witness 9. Of course, the negative gut reaction to black people is ingrained in GZ, his family and supporters. What the turmoil over at the nuthouse right now is something like: OMG, how could MO say that? Now, they’re gonna really think GZ’s racist. As if we didn’t know.

            MO’s version is dramatic, worthy of a bad fiction. The other version, while less dramatic, is true to GZ’s life, caught in his groundhog day where he, cool as a cucumber, keeps having to call the police, yet again, on a black man (reference: video parody of GZ repeatedly calling 911, as Gorge Limmerman). The man will never learn. Stupid only gets stupider.

            • Oh My God. I hope all of this actually is in the book. The prosecution would have a field day. Get your gun shellie….a black man in a car….he either stole it or he is a murdering theif…..but i don’t racially profile.

            • @ Jo, while most other things I’ve read on the book aren’t of consequence to the case IMHO. However, this story about GZ reacting to a black man in a car again will be something the prosecution can absolutely use to characterize GZ’s profiling behavior, since it comes straight from his best friend.

              In the stories we’ve heard about the burglaries, did any of them involve a gun? No. Geez, again, I ask, why can they order him not to drink alcohol, but they can’t order him NOT to carry another gun? This man is trigger happy. If he does hurt someone again due to his paranoia, I’m blaming the state and NRA backers. GZ is not a hunter living in the backwoods of Alaska needing to shoot animals for his food or a farmer protecting his livestock. He did not have then and does not have now any business carrying a gun.

            • WSI……its a bit rich isnt it….gz, a grown man, feels threatened by someone sitting in their car….but in his hannerty interview gz said he could not understand why trayvon, a teenager on foot being watched and slowly followed by a man in a car, and chased on foot, would possibly feel threatened. What a load of bullshit. that man makes me angry…!!!!

  35. To those of you who follow Leatherman’s blog. I don’t post over there but have been reading here and there. In his latest post on crime scene investigations. He mentions briefly how he learned about DNA testing, but then gives a link to a guide for law enforcement in gathering eyewitness evidence, not on gathering forensic samples. What was the point of the post? Maybe he was too busy watching the DNC and haphazardly threw it together. I think he cheated you guys on that one.

    • Leatherman’s blog has a different approach than this one. He likes to “hold forth” and he’s good enough at it to deserve the traffic he generates, but it has led to attracting some trolls that he hasn’t taken the time to root out as a moderator. All that effort takes time.

      TalkLeft, for instance, has a hypervigilant moderator and produces slightly less “articles” but when you get down to it each site that is comprised of court followers and evidence-sifters such as this one has a core group of 10-30 regulars and an unknown number of lurkers.

      Justice Quest has a slightly younger demographic I’d guess, given the number of emoticons they post and the lingo they use. But again, the same basic number of regular posters.

      Then you have the “semi-lone wolves” like DiWataman or thcoupi or whomever who maintain a blog or flickr site (like myself) where what they post is mostly the result of their own investigative and interpretive works. These are not really “community” sites as much as they are places to check out pics, videos and theories and allow some feedback specific to the postings.

      Leatherman’s site, much like this one in a way is just an open forum with blog headings that may or may not generate much discussion on topic, but exist as a running “open bar” where we all jabber with one another to pass the time and share links and info.

      What am I missing? Those are the ones I check. Oh yeah, the Conservative Treehouse of course but I don’t want to bother trying to characterize what goes on over there. Sadly, it is however somewhat of an epicenter of activity given that the Ostermans and Zimmermans and O’mara himself all seem to respond there through various means a tone time or another. I usually wait for someone here to mention what’s happening over there – the level of open hatred and intolerance there is too much to handle for me, personally.

      Daily Kos posts fro time to time a diary by Meteor Blades that generates a lot of traffic, but not from those who have an interest in the investigative, bloggers-sift-thru-document dump type ways that this site sometimes can generate.

      There are others I’m missing but these are the big one’s I’d say.

      GZLegal is an experiment in free-fall, I’d say. It hasn’t had the desired effect the defense hoped, and the facebook page for GZ was shut down completely. The donation sites are not bringing in much cash, I’d guess and are more or less superfluous at this point. GZ’s fan base has already been tapped, I’d say and he’s not going to attract new ones until and if a trial happens. He may get a little bump in donations then, but in the meantime I’d say he’s stuck with what he was able to raise initially. This is a slow time for the case, in spite of the fact that the defense can’t keep a lid on it’s “friends and family” and they keep generating news by ‘eff-ing up all over the place. I more or less expected that, given the caliber of humanity we are dealing with here.

      For all the complaining by treepers about the “scheme team” and legal action and advice from the family of the deceased, they don’t have much of an internet presence. They’ve mostly worked thru cable TV news outlets and to their credit stay off the internet to maintain a “high road” approach. True, they had a conduit thru Al Sharpton’s presence on MSNBC that they exploited for all it was worth but I hardly blame them one bit. They went from a dead son and no arrest to a DOJ and SAO investigation by any means necessary and I don’t fault them one iota for doing so. What parent wouldn’t seek justice? I’m afraid if I were in their shoes I wouldn’t show one tenth of the restraint they have shown. If you lose a wife you are a widower. Lose your parents and they call you an orphan. Lose a child, and there isn’t even a WORD for it, the tragedy strikes so deep.

      The rest of the online activity is comparable to hobbyist activity in many ways, I’m afraid, unless the SAO cares to use what is generated by bloggers in a court room, which remains to be seen. It’s rumored that the defense puts stock in what is written online, but on the surface so far it seems to be centered on fund-raising alone, with actual legal strategy still being formulated by old fashioned seat of the pants lawyering, which is probably wise.

      It does seem to be a distraction for the defendant himself to angst over what is posted about him, but again remains to be seen if it will have a material effect on the case itself.

      All in all, it’s been an interesting sociological experience. The case itself is of course a human tragedy but the overall crowd response is another topic all together. 2.2 million signed an online petition and thousands protested peacefully to bring sunshine and justice into the case.

      That initial “viral” crowd response alone is the biggest story so far. We will always have more George Zimmeman’s, sadly but what remains to be seen is if this “political movement” will lead to less SYG laws or less handguns or less vigilante shootings.

      • @willisnewton –

        SYG was dropped by O’Mara with a bogus excuse for a reason and that reason is 90% political, imo.

        • Interesting theory, CSFC. Difficult to prove, however. It is true that people who favor the SYG laws are backing away on this one, since it seems obvious to most that GZ shot an unarmed teen for no good reason.

          I tend to think that MO’M is genuine in his conviction (pun intended, ha ha) to get GZ off on the charges he faces but his options are quite limited. I think he;s working towards a “hail mary” strategy that claims that all that really matters is the last few seconds before GZ pulled the trigger since he’s going to be defending a man with almost zero credibility about the events preceding the shot.

          But yeah, plenty of politics are surrounding this case. Most notably, the politics of the Sanford city council and the disposition of the police chief and his job, and also the politic surrounding Norm Wolfinger’s office, and his quiet decision not to run for re-election.

          But the greater issues are indeed gun control and these SYG laws. I’m not sure which way the wind is blowing, but I wish the original outrage over this case had gelled into a stronger more committed movement to examine and DO SOMETHING about this nation’s love affair with handguns.

    • @WSI –

      I thought the point of his post was that he’s learned through experience that there’s more to winning a case than the DNA evidence. His post today drives that point further home. At least that’s my take.

      • @CSFC, that post today was better, at least he actually talked about forensic evidence. I was just wondering why he posted yesterday a link about gathering eyewitness accounts rather than forensic evidence. That’s all. But now I have another bone to pick. I don’t think he used the phrase “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” correctly in the following excerpt from today’s post.

        “A good prosecutor would have spotted this problem and responded with a statement like this:
        Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If there were no blood on the sidewalk or in the grass beside it, the use of luminol would not have produced a visible result.”

        It would NOT be the prosecutor that would not be arguing “Absence of visible blood on sidewalk is not evidence of absence of head bashing”. That’s more like what a treeper would say to us, if we were to say, “See? Didn’t see blood on the sidewalk, so no head bashing.”

        Remember our discussion on DNA and TM’s hands? I have tried to use that phrase to refute people’s assertion that the lack of DNA evidence found on TM’s hands meant that he was not beating GZ. While I don’t believe TM was beating GZ ferociously, they were engaged in an altercation and I can’t rule out that any of GZ’s injuries were caused by TM in his OWN self-defense. That said, I still have to say “Absence of DNA is not evidence of absence of punching.” It is all of the other evidence, minor lacerations, no bruising, etc that says GZ didn’t get a beating like he claimed.

        OK done nit picking about Leatherman. See why I don’t post over there?

        • I see what you’re saying, but I take what Leatherman is saying to mean that it is the State’s job (including the police) to properly gather, store, test and record evidence. He’s 100% correct on that.

          Unlike the Treepers, though, Leatherman is putting forth that even if everything wasn’t gathered, stored, tested and recorded properly, there’s no doubt that Zimmerman’s blood flow is visible on the pictures and it’s clearly flowing the wrong way — wouldn’t be on the ground no way.

          • @I agree with the gist of that post. Just nitpicking at his use of language to explain logic.

  36. At the risk of making ya’ll’s blood boil, take a deep breath before reading this one. Another claim by MO from the book:
    “George Zimmerman’s gun was legal, he had a legal license and also a license to conceal it. Many have turned the shooting of Trayvon Martin into a debate on gun laws. Most are convinced the presence of George’s firearm resulted in the death of Trayvon. How can anyone say that? George felt he was going to be suffocated to death as Trayvon’s hands covered his nose and mouth. Death by Trayvon’s hands or George’s gun; tragic anyway you look at it.”

    While parts of the book were specifically being red flagged by this anonymous poster (which the treepers now are also speculating as I had earlier mentioned may be “Ken”, aka money savvy brother in law), this excerpt was NOT highlighted. So the gun was not a factor according to MO? Hmmmm, so GZ was only afraid of being suffocated to death by a 17-year-old with no history of violence or motive to kill. Is MO trying to absolve his own guilt for helping GZ buy a gun in the first place? As willisnewton mentioned earlier, take this book with a grain of salt, but it is amusing to see the treepers “self-imploding” over this issue. Crazy OG lady has gone into cyber hiding and refusing to comment anymore on this after being attacked by others at the site.

    But regarding the quote above. No, the presence of rocks on the ground, a high heeled shoe, a belt, etc, any number of things in this world that can be used as a weapon does not kill people. People kill people. The presence of George’s gun didn’t kill TM. GEORGE killed TM. Period.

    • This is boilerplate gun nut stuff, doesn’t surprise me. We’re still looking for the “tipping point” in the USA to wake up about the flood of handguns that plague our streets and living rooms (so many people shoot their kid brother by accident).

      But with hard work and some deep soul-searching maybe this tragic case will add to the straws it is going to take to break the camel’s back.

      I’d almost endorse a rocket-launcher exchange program for handguns, they are so bad. Just get ’em off the streets and let people have bazookas and stinger missiles instead. Then maybe they would see it for what it is – a killing machine that a civil society has little practical use for.

      People want to shoot bambi? Great… just don’t shoot me is all I ask. I’m gong to the store for some skittles now. Alert my security team.

      • http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57507176/dr-phil-on-his-1957-chevy-trayvon-martin-and-party-politics/
        Thanks for all the commentary WillisNewton. Watch this clip of Dr. Phil on CBS, skip to 1:45 and watch til about 5:00. Gives his take on the case and shows a bit more of the interview with MO. Dr. Phil mentions something about it becoming “open season” for young black men if the case becomes swept under the rug. I guess the Ostermans are really regretting doing this now. Alicia Martin, TM’s step mother was also on the show. She was just shown in this clip in tears listening to MO say that definitely TM would have killed GZ had he not had a gun.

        • What was TM gonna kill him with? Was he gonna give him diabetes with his Skittles and Arizona Watermelon? There’s no proof how he got the injuries or to the extent of his injuries, but I suppose we’re just supposed to take his word. No need to ask questions. Who cares that there’s a lot pointing against his story being the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I suppose we should just let him go.

          NOT. What a bunch of dolts.

          OFF TOPIC:
          Drew Peterson CONVICTED!
          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/06/drew-peterson-verdict_n_1862245.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D202077

          • Woot! With spouses like Drew Peterson bandying about, it’s a wonder marriage hasn’t yet been banned.

        • “Gives his take on the case and shows a bit more of the interview with MO. Dr. Phil mentions something about it becoming “open season” for young black men if the case becomes swept under the rug.”

          The commentary in the CBS clip doesn’t sound like Dr. Phil is in the Zimmerman camp. Wonder how the show will end. Was it on already?

          • It airs September 10. As much as I can’t stand the show, I will definitely DVR and watch.

          • @CSFC, no the show hasn’t aired. It’s supposed to be on Sept 10. Dr. Phil doesn’t seem like he’s in the GZ camp, which is the beauty of this whole thing. Haven’t you ever wondered why people come onto TV shows at all? They’re lured by the promise from producers of “Here’s your chance to tell your story to the world!!!” And then they get there and get ripped apart by the host for ratings. What were the Osterman’s thinking? That he was really a “Dr.” and would just say, OK sit back on the couch and just tell us how you feel?

        • @CSFC, thanks! Love how Dr. Phil says “It’s a Neighborhood Watch, not a Neighborhood Hunt” and he emphasizes “Hunt” by gestering finger quotes.

        • http://www.drphil.com/shows/page/GeorgeZimmerman
          By the way, in that same link CSFC provided above is the poll Dr. Phil’s show is conducting. It’s currently at:
          1) Do you believe George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense?
          43% no 57% yes
          2) George is currently charged with second-degree murder. Do you believe he should be convicted? 56% No; 44% Yes

          When the poll first came out, the numbers were more like 75% No to the self-defense claim, and 60% yes to conviction of 2nd degree murder.

          The treepers then encouraged all their devotees to go vote. That’s why the numbers are skewed like they are now since most of the news about this show has been coming from the nuthouse, so most of the respondents probably came from there.

          All of you guys feel free to go vote to bring the numbers back where they should be. You don’t have to enter personal information to vote.

  37. Interesting piece today on NPR about phone companies recording the movements of our cell phones:
    http://www.npr.org/2012/09/06/160627856/why-your-cell-phone-could-be-called-a-tracker

    “Your cellphone is a tracking device collecting a lot more information about you than you may think, says ProPublica investigative reporter Peter Maass.

    “They are collecting where we are — not just at one particular moment in the day, but at virtually every moment of the day,” Maass tells Fresh Air’s Dave Davies.

    And they keep it indefinitely. Says law enforcement can easily get this location data for murder investigations. So, the paths of GZ and Trayvon may yet be known. Corey may have found out info on Taaffee’s whereabouts that night, too. The disconnect time for Trayvon and DeeDee will tell us when and where the loud argument started and the moving scuffle began. If it’s around 7:15:00 I think it is the same as in w11’s and w20’s account.

    DeeDee called him back 2 or 3 times and texted him. These times will further back it up.

    • @Jay –

      I actually think it start prior to reaching W11’s and W20’s back yard. I’m thinking it would have had to have already escalated somewhat by the time W11/W20 first tuned in.

      • I agree. Came around the north side of their building possibly. Maybe even around their whole building. Wonder if we’ll ever get witnesses from that area. I don’t think the fast walking chase came north on the center sidewalk. Too many people back there who did not see that. John w6 virtually rules that out. I think w2 glanced down at Austin going that way much later. She says her glance was only 15 seconds before the gun went off.

        So, GZ’s story about Trayvon attacking him from the south a minute and a half before w2’s glance is hogwash. That never made sense because if Trayvon had rung GZ’s clock that way, GZ would have fallen and stumbled north. What I understand from DeeDee now is that GZ was fast walking, following Trayvon moving east along the north edge of w11’s townhome when Trayvon gets fed up and turns around asking “Why you following me for?”

        Mary w5 seems to have done a survey of the neighborhood rumor mill during the first week. She had some influence with it in shaping public opinion through the media early on. Here’s what she speculated about the fight she didn’t see, hadn’t heard, and actually knew nothing about until talking to neighbors:

        “And the fight that happened started way down the sidewalk, because the person on the very end of this block is the one who called the police originally because the fight broke out. Now the kid got shot way down here, five doors down.
        But once I heard that somebody at the end of the townhouse, you know, townhouses are connected. So, at the end… the very, very end is where the fight started. I’m talking about the townhome… at the opposite end of that walkway where the ‘T’ is. That’s where the fight started. Where the police walked from.
        Okay, so, this is the sidewalk. And then the sidewalk goes, you know, both ways. So, there’s townhomes all along here. And then there’s townhomes all along here. And then our front door is like the fourth one over, I think. So, this is where we walked out. This is our porch. The kid was lying here. From what I’m told, this is the people who called 911 first. This is where the fight originated. And we only heard one gunshot, one time going off. I’m told there was two. I have no idea.
        Neighbors are telling me that they heard two shots. It’s probably rumors.
        So, I’m assuming maybe the kid was already shot once and was crying and trying to get home. Or, I don’t know.
        I think he has a temper and I think he got the crap beat out of him. He thought he could take this little 17 year old. And I think maybe he did in self-defense maybe shoot him once. But what I’m being told there was two guns… two fires… two guns that were shot.
        But, if 911 is called when they are down here… I think the kid got shot there and I think he was trying to get home. Because, where the dad was was down here in this townhouse.
        So, I think the kid was running for help. That’s my opinion. I mean, my opinion’s probably not worth much, but…”

        • I think Zimmerman started following Trayvon east on TTL at 1:43 in the nen call or
          7:11:17 pm. You can hear him moving in his seat right before that and then you can hear the gear. At 7:11:40 Zimmerman says he is running. That means Trayvon was walking east for about 23 sec. That would’ve taken past the bend where TTL turns south. Deedee said Trayvon was out of breath when Zimmerman caught up with him 4 min later. The rest of her sequence and all the other evidence doesn’t support a south north chase.
          This is the sequence as I understand it from Deedee.
          Trayvon started walking because this dude was watching him. She then says Zimmerman starts following him. That is when she says his voice changed and he sounded scared. While Trayvon was walking the call disconnected. When she called back he was running, she could here the wind. Trayvon tells her he thought he lost the guy. She tells him run to your dad’s house, but he tells her he is going around the back of the houses because it is easier. Trayvon starts walking back and she urges him to keep running, but he says he will walk fast and he is close to home. But Deedee thinks he is too tired to run. While he is walking in the direction of his home again, he notices Zimmerman is following him again and he is getting closer. That would indicate that Zimmerman was moving faster than Trayvon and explain why he was out of breath as reported by Deedee.

          Deedee’s statement, the physical evidence, the witness statements, the four minute gap between the time Trayvon ran and the beginning of the altercation and the almost 2 minute gap between the end of the nen call and the beginning of the altercation, all seem to not support Trayvon running south. That would leave him running east or north.
          I think Trayvon running north taking one of the gaps between the houses is the most likely scenario, because Zimmerman seemed at a total loss about where Trayvon could be. If Trayvon ran east towards RVC, Zimmerman would have had a visual of Trayvon. So I think Trayvon ran north, crossed RVC, ran between the houses on the other side of RVC, and started moving around the back of those houses where they border Oregan av. I think Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was heading towards the back entrance because “they always do”. He may have followed him north, didn’t see Trayvon and started running east on RVC towards the corner, or he may have taken the cut-through on TTL going east on RVC, thinking he would cut of Trayvon going towards the back entrance. Either way, I think Zimmerman ended up on the north east corner of RVC, because from there he would be able to see both entrances.
          Zimmerman may have seen Trayvon crossing RVC going back towards the T after Trayvon thought he lost GZ. GZ was probably running towards Trayvon, because according to Deedee he was gaining on Trayvon.
          I think GZ caught up with Trayvon near the T. I think the only options left for Trayvon, were to continue down this very dark path with this bat shit crazy guy following him, or to turn around and face the guy at a place where there was at least some light.

      • W11 describes the beginning the same as Deedee. Loud verbal exchange sounding like “what are you doing”.

    • @ Jay, do you or anyone else know how accurate the tracking technology is currently based on cell phones? If there’s a 200 yard radius than it wouldn’t really help us any.

      • I’m no expert in that field, but I would think the drops of DeeDee’s calls could turn up some significant info.

      • Here’s hoping. I think standard GPS sees a motor vehicle within about 3 meters. That’s how those voices in the device know to tell you to turn left in 300 feet like they do. Government vehicle positions are monitored and can be tracked down if stolen. I wonder for cell phones, too. And how frequently is the checking done? The article said it varies for the different phone companies. I heard today there is a central clearing house in the U.S. with all this key press information.

        • @Jay, I’ve read GPS chips are installed in all new smartphones now. Do they come with GPS software preinstalled, and does it require user activation or is it activated in default mode? I don’t have one, so I wouldn’t know.

  38. i just saw a part of the MO book where he is talking about some white supremist house he had to go to when he was Deputy Sherriff which lead nicely into his complaint of New Black Panther Party and how quickly they judged poor george before they knew any of the facts blah blah blah. I certainly don’t condone any threats from anyone but i am completely and utterley sick of team george complaining that has been judged hashly and considered a criminal when that is exactly what he did to poor Trayvon. It was GZ’s premature evaluation of an innocent kid that got him in this mess and if anyone is guilty of rushing to judgement it is him. GZ was judge and executioner.

    • Never mind, I just got my answer. O’Mara is subpoening (spelling?) all of TM’s school records, INCLUDING this middle school records. What’s he gonna find? That TM was running in the hallways or talking in class? Oh boy, that’s a real making of a trouble maker there. He says those records will not become public though as they are protected.

      http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/49-zimmerman-defense-begins-discovery-process
      http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/48-subpoenas-for-trayvon-martin-s-school-records

      • O’Mara also says “we will be issuing subpoenas for other items including potentially relevant data from social media platforms”. What “data” I wonder? @Tchoupi, you think he’ll want your analyses?

        • Sounds to me like the defense is fishing for TMs twitter account to be entered into evidence. Allegedly rhe teen had tweeter about drug use in his past, etc. I doubt this will make it into court but you never know.

          On another note the SPD “public information officer” had been re assigned to traffic duty by the acting new police chief and has gone public over the reasons why: the new chief blames him for how poorly them chief Bill Lee handled the Trayvon Martin killing. A letter castigating the press officer was leaked by the guy to local television. More dirt inside SPD is coming to light. Apparently despite sunshine laws on the books the chief had ordered the letter not to be made public.

          Whatever this is truly about, it seems like possibly continuing struggles between the factions on the city council who backed or booted Bill Lee are involved.

          It’s local politics In some regard but once again its a shame the DoJ didn’t make the SPD itself a major focus of it’s investigation because there’s been a lot more than meets the eye going on behind closed doors there, and little “sunshine” is getting in. The DoJ and the FBI all went back to DC a long time ago.

          Sorry no URL just now- I’m on a mobile device. Think it may be channel 35?

            • @willisnewton –

              I think SPD has a problem. I read elsewhere that this new interim chief was causing problems which forced him out of his previous jobs. Could be a hatchet job against him by those unhappy with his decisions to boot Serino and others. Could be he himself was booted because he’s NOT in the old boy network camp. IDK.

              Research needed on this one.

            • Hi Willis,
              Do you know if there has been an explanation why Bill Lee was at the crime scene that evening?

            • @ amsterdam

              I don’t know why – or if – Bill Lee was at the crime scene that evening. Where are you getting that from? I’ve heard that claim bandied about but have not read it myself anywhere. It’s not in the NYT story that seemed to delve as deeply as any investigative journalist has been able to do. I tend to believe you, but just haven’t seen any independent contemporaneous report to that effect. Is it anywhere in the discovery? Does Bill Lee admit as much to the press, anywhere?

              But one reason IF he was there would be that it’s a small town in some ways at a murder is a big deal in Sanford. But there was also some back-and-forth between Lee and some press outlets, the Grio, i think, who published claims that police chief Lee had met personally with Norm Wolfinger early on in the case as well. One of the first real “explosions” from Bill Lee was when he acted to give some non-denial denials about his interactions with Wolfinger. I could never fully make sense of all that.

              I’m just not as conversant on that area of the case as I wish I was, so don’t quote me on any of this. The story of Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger has not been told and both men are not cooperating with the press.

              Let’s start with what we DO know about Bill Lee – he acted in a manner inconsistent with what his lead investigator felt was happening in the case – Serino seems to have wanted to get the prosecutors to charge manslaughter, and we know now that he KNEW GZ was lying about several things concerning his movements that night, and seemingly felt the injuries were not consistent with the self defense tale as well. Yet somehow Bill Lee wanted to defend his department, which is understandable, but Lee seemingly over-reacted and made statements about how he was legally unable to arrest GZ. (see what I mean, there is more to all this than just that… I don’t have it all straight in my head.)

              I do know that Serino and Bill Lee gave a JOINT interview with a local paper that GZ’s defenders cite often, but my take on that is that Serino was “toeing the party line” in that instance since his boss was right there with him. Serino also may have still been playing “good cop” hoping to get GZ’s continued cooperation (and more inconsistent and contradictory statements out of him.)

              It’s going to take a real insider to untangle the whole story of Chris Serino and his motives, actions and methods. But my instinct is that he’s done a good job and had he known about Dee Dee, he would have wrapped up enough for a murder indictment just like Corey was able to.

            • @willisnewton
              His name is on the crime scene contamination log. Page 49 second dump.
              He is identified as chief Lee. He got there at 8:40 pm.
              I was trying to find the white male civilian standing next to the log officer as described in ofc. Santiago’s narrative. Joe Manola is identified, but no other civilians as far as I can see.
              In a follow up memo Santiago identifies the civilian as an Asian man.
              Robertson the log officer received a statement from a male witness, possible Asian.

          • @Willisnewton, fishing is right. We know TM smoked pot. So did Clinton and Obama. I think they turned out alright, and I don’t recall either of them were reported to viciously attack an innocent watchman for reaching for a cell phone.

            But social media as evidence is stupid, because unless TM tweeted he was going to go punch GZ in the nose, then what is really relevant? Kids brag all the time and may talk about getting high or wasted when they actually went out and shared a beer and a joint. I talk about getting drunk in the virtual world all the time but in fact I haven’t actually been really “drunk” since college. Point is, an online persona does not accurately reflect a person in real life.

            And if TM had been drugged up at the time, then it goes against any argument that he would have had the coordination and strength to rain down MMA style blows. But then no need to speculate because they already did a tox screen on him. And due to the winks and “it’s Ok boys, he’s with me” coming from Osterman, we don’t have a tox screen on GZ do we? Oh the fallout from this whole thing at SPD just gets messier huh? They keep finding scapegoats and demoting them down to road patrol.

            • Sanford is a relatively small place and the politics are local. Half the city council backed Bill Lee and half wanted him fired. the city manager was against him but is a non voting member of the council and the mayor cast rhe tie breaking vote twice- once to suspend him (with pay, supposedly pending a federal investigation – one that was not forthcoming) and then a second time to KEEP him on paid leave a the scrutiny died down somewhat over the Zimmerman affair.

              Terms were negotiated behind closed doors and eventually he left/ was fired by the city manager, but probably with a payoff of some sort as severance.

              The supposed DoJ investigation was never focused on the Sanford PD, but instead only on whether George Zimmerman was guilty of civil rights violations . I’m only giving my opinion here but it seems the threat of a full investigation was part of what motivated the republican governor of Florida to appoint a special prosecutor, and that implied threat was never carried out.

  40. Ya gotta know it’s a slow news period when I have to comment on this…..
    The Ostermans’ book (listed as Mark & Sondra Osterman as authors) is available for pre-order at Amazon to be released on Sept 18, well after the Dr. Phil show is going to air (FYI, Martin/Fulton and brother are in a separate show to air on Sept. 14, while the Ostermans are airing on Sept. 10). It’s a 188 page paperback for $15 (kinda steep!) I was kinda right about it being a self-published book. They used Tate Publishing & Enterprises, a Christian publisher that “operates on the vanity press model in which most authors pay for the publication of their books.” (Wikipedia). Meaning, you pay, they’ll publish anything.

    The 2-paragraph book description at Amazon starts like this “The sound of a single gun shot cut through the quiet, rainy evening and a lanky, black teen, Trayvon Martin, fell to the ground. The shooter was someone Mark and Sondra Osterman spoke with daily. He played Santa for their daughter, treated his wife with preciousness, often ate at their table, and shared their joys and sorrows……”

    Nauseous yet? Don’t worry guys, this is as far as I go. I can’t fork over money to get this book knowing it would fund GZ’s defense. Besides, I’m sure they’ll be copies of it all over the internet anyway….

      • Maybe Trayvon didn’t fall. He might have already been laying on the ground. If I had a hollow point bullet rip through my heart so fast that it exploded and collapsed my lungs, I don’t think I would stand up in order to fall down. Not even if I was a super thug and mighty goon wearing tan khaki pants and white reflective shoes!

        I’m not certain what position Trayvon was in when he was very accurately shot. We know it was at close range. The sound in that area is naturally amplified by reverberation of quick echoes off the facing walls. Even so, many witnesses say the shot sounded muffled. W18 was looking but didn’t see a flash. These all point to close range.

        Further, many described it as a pop. I think one even said a pop gun. Now the gun was small, but not that small. So many said they weren’t sure it was a gun. Who hasn’t see movies and TV shows with loud gun shots in dolby surround? Nobody! So this uncertainty about the sound of a gun seems also to indicate close range.

        While there were many possibilities I don’t think Trayvon was a moving target. They were laying together very close. Could have both been on their sides.

        Here’s my latest idea. Mary and Selma were already on the way to their back sliding glass door because of the freaky cries they heard. After the shot they opened that door and were outside looking at GZ from behind in, I believe, less than 10 seconds, maybe 5. He was over Trayvon as if he were doing CPR from a straddling position. But he wasn’t helping Trayvon! [They thought the shooter had run. They didn’t know GZ was the shooter yet.] GZ was probably pushing the blood and breath out of poor Trayvon so he could not tell the soon to arrive cops anything.

        Mary assumes Trayvon was laying face down at this time. That’s because GZ leaves the body while she is inside getting her phone. When she comes back out and sees Trayvon clearly for the first time he is face down. I think that’s when she say’s, “Oh, my God” on her 911 call.

        But there’s more here that Mary missed. Selma stayed outside observing GZ for 1 minute and 40 seconds. She saw a leg twitch while GZ was still over him. Now, I ask you, in the dark at a distance, how do you make out a leg twitch? It must be a pretty big twitch, eh? Well,…

        Perhaps it wasn’t just a twitch. I don’t know for sure, but how about this? Trayvon was shot while laying on his back. He was shot in the front of his chest. George is immediately over him. The ladies see him mashing on Trayvon’s ribs. While Mary gets her phone and Selma is still looking on at around 7:17:45 GZ quickly flips the body over. Selma notices the legs move.

        • @Jay, that’s a good interpretation of what Selma saw as GZ flipping TM over. We would have been able to see the tan pants more clearly than anything else out there. Too bad her English isn’t that great, so Mary was doing some of the explaining for her in some of the interviews I saw.

          • I meant “She would have been able….” Wow, my English isn’t that great either……

        • I don’t believe TM was a moving target, either. I’m sure that statement by MO was for dramatic effect, but it just amazes me how these friends/family of his can say such stupid stuff that makes him look so bad (as if he doesn’t do a fantastic job of that all on his own).

          I like that you mention that the two could have been on their sides because I have thought this to be a possibility for a while. Except, my thought was they were on their sides and after the shot Trayvon might have slumped over on his stomach as GZ rolled away then pounced on top of him.

          • @Jay and QETNO, speaking of them being on their sides when the gun went off, I posited a theory awhile back to explain the gunshot lead particle on the BACK upper sleeve of GZ’s jacket. No lead could have gotten there if he had shot with his right hand with elbow on the ground while still lying flat on the ground. If he drew the gun with his left hand and aimed it UNDER his right arm (remember he was saying he had to aim around his own hand?) at TM who then lying to the right of him, that would explain it. Also explains why the teacher witness did not see a lot of movement when the gunshot went off. Even though she was a bit far away to see details surely she would have seen a figure drop to the ground. Instead, she just kinda describes a shot and then a man getting up.

            • Would also explain why Austin only saw one man. He said he saw one man with his back towards him on the ground. The person he saw may have been blocking the view of the other.

      • A very threatening quote from last chapterThere are many who cannot wait for the State v. GZ criminal proceedings to end so that George can return some “punitive damage” to the very people who have specifically and intentionally damaged him. The time for these lessons is not now, but soon, after the weight, burden, and black cloud of imprisonment, is removed from his shoulders.

        • @2dogsonly
          This was a direct quote from chapter 6. Sorry didn’t make it clear I was quoting MO’ book. Could this be viewed as threatening witnesses? He has killed someone on much less perception of bad behavior.

          • @2dogsonly, when you say “@2dogsonly” it sounds like you’re having a conversation with yourself LOL! Hey, I talk to myself too…..no, I think the “threat” is future lawsuits against what the GZ people have deemed the “Scheme Team” or the victim’s family, their lawyers and associates. They think that all of the evidence against GZ is somehow made up or manipulated by them.

            • @was so interesting
              Talking to myself and thinking threat was against Crump & team

              Oh smarty pants, you. Just trying to xplain quote…didn’t want my new buddies to think I had gone to the dark side.:-)

              The quote about returning punitive damage is in the rebuttal post to MO’s book so it is actually against this Judas aka MO. Should have made that clear.
              The rebuttals are so well written and only 3 people received copies, I’m betting they are from Mark O’Mara.
              GZ had quit trusting MO back when he was getting bullet proof vests and was gone such a long time. When he returned he (MO) csaid he gave a media interview as payment for the vest. GZ hasn’t had any contact w/ this slime ball since 4/23 and now the rebuttal person says they feel that was the whole reason he accompanied them to walk through, interviews, and let them stay at his house (all to write a book for monetary gain).

              Whoever is rebutting it, is defiantly undercutting book sales as chapters along with commentary is available for free on Treehouse blog. And they aren’t worried about copyright infringement either.

            • @2dogsonly, sorry, didn’t mean to be smart alecky. I actually couldn’t find the quote you were talking about in Chapter 6. But no matter. You said “Whoever is rebutting it, is defiantly undercutting book sales as chapters along with commentary is available for free on Treehouse blog. And they aren’t worried about copyright infringement either.” As I said in my other posts, I really believe it’s the brother-in-law perhaps speaking on behalf of Robert senior or GZ himself. They wouldn’t be afraid of being sued by the Ostermans. What would be interesting though if O’Mara had anything to do with influencing what is written in the book since MO and SO are potential witnesses. About undercutting sales, I don’t think the treeper readership were really gonna make them rich. But you know what would really undercut sales? If the prosecutor can subpeona the whole book itself and enter it into evidence. Per sunshine laws, everybody would get the whole thing for free, so they wouldn’t make any money from selling to news organizations either.

            • @WSI and Qetno –

              ” If the prosecutor can subpeona the whole book itself and enter it into evidence. Per sunshine laws, everybody would get the whole thing for free, so they wouldn’t make any money from selling to news organizations either.”

              Now *that* would be justice!

  41. Fight Epicenter

    Instead of a fight, I think it was simply an attempt to detain Trayvon. GZ tells investigator Doris Singleton that he was foiled in the exercise of his authority. Tracy Martin says that Trayvon would defend himself.

    To determine where it started and where it escalated we need circles of radiation of the sound from the detainment. [Is sound, either vocal or otherwise, evidence? I believe it can be because they sent the recordings of the screams to a lab for evaluation.] The circles come from which witnesses heard this argument, recognized it as serious from the volume and nature of the voices, and which didn’t. Those that didn’t hear the initial arguing must have been too far away from it. Of the 20 witnesses, some heard it louder than others did. Those that heard it loudest must have been closest to it.

    Consider the map of the witnesses’s homes. DeeDee heard it but we don’t know where, yet. Witnesses 11 and 20 heard it loud. Witness 18 definitely heard it. Witness 6 (John) tells us that he heard voices getting louder as they came.

    Some a little farther away were alarmed but didn’t identify it as a fight. These would be Witness 3, Witnesses 12 and 13, and Witnesses 1 and 2.

    Others too far away would be 5, 10, 14, 15, 16, and 19.

    So far, I reason the epicenter to be closest to W11.

    But, if we look at the bigger map, at where all the houses are, I just want to say there are other potential witnesses. There are houses on RVC west of W18 all the way to the clubhouse. And some on TTL west of W11 going toward the mailboxes. They were all surveyed and flyered by SPD, but some of these are quite close to the epicenter. They must have heard, too, if they were home. Witness didn’t come forward at first because she didn’t think she had anything important. It turned out to be very important.

    • If you put the sounds in juxtaposition with the physical evidence, then the words could have started between the two with GZ at the keychain flashlight and TM at the tan bag. I don’t see any PHYSICAL evidence to say that TM was ever any farther north than the tan bag.

      I think if this were the case, W!! is still describing what he heard – an argument that seemed to come from north of his unit and move past him.

      We’ll never know, however absent a surprise witness or a confession. What matters is that someone closed a gap – and that someone is the person who exited their vehicle after chasing the kid with his car down TTL.

      Dee Dee also thinks GZ closed the gap. W2 seems to have seen someone running, possibly two people running. The prosecution claims witnesses PLURAL to a foot chase. Is it these two, or do they have a surprise witness?

      Many things are possible. WHat GZ claims is not possible, given that he’s either invented dialog, or else can make a jury believe he is more credible than Dee Dee, which I very much doubt. He’s lied about his story in a way that can be absolutely proven to be lies all the way up to “he ran,” which he claims he uttered on RVC, after walking there (not running), a physical impossibility given the time suggested by the NEN call recording.

      The rest of his narrative I also think is false, but can only be shown to be so thru circumstantial evidence and expert witness (subjective) testimony, like the idea that the injuries don’t match the description of the “beating” he took, etc. But juries convict on that type of evidence every day, especially in cases like George’s where his credibility is so utterly lacking.

      • Tchoupi has outlined the several versions GZ gave of his encounter with Trayvon. I think he was trying to match where he thought the witnesses would be found. This is why his story changed so much. As he learned about new witnesses…pop… out of his butt came a new tale. Another lie. This was for consistency. But his trail of lies made him inconsistent.

        One of GZ’s versions of a fight was by his truck. In the last version it was near the “T”. Doesn’t mean it started there.

        • Yes! This is what I meant by Zimmerman modifies his answers to cover what he hadn’t pre-thunk his alibi well enough. He modified his “what kind of running” excuse to Trayvon wasn’t running — skipped instead — after Serino told him your arse better start remembering ’cause this ain’t no bike heist investigation.

      • @WillisNewton -ou

        “If you put the sounds in juxtaposition with the physical evidence, then the words could have started between the two with GZ at the keychain flashlight and TM at the tan bag.”

        Now, this is something I hadn’t considered. Thank you.

        It could very well be that the verbal altercation had considerable distance and in order to close the gap, Zimmerman had to move 40 ft. south! Damn, you’re good!!!

        (I didn’t understand this point until now that you’ve been trying to make all along.)

        • Like I keep saying, many things are possible. Too many, really but what matters is what GZ claims and if THAT is possible or not. The pattern of lies that GZ tells is what makes me curious. He’s obviously hiding how he and TM moved from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area. He claims he was at RVC (without running) when he told dispatch “he ran,” which is impossible. He leaves out the migration of the fight in every account he gives until he’s taken to the scene- I think he’s hiding something here too. The question is, what can the prosecution prove beyond a reaonable doubt?

          They claim they prove murder 2. I doubt they are bluffing, but I also doubt we’ve seen all the evidence and / or witnesses yet, either.

  42. The last excerpt from Osterman’s book was put up by the “anonymous poster” at the nuthouse today.

    1) In jailhouse calls, MO was referred to as “safety” and SO as “safety’s wife”

    2) The name of GZ’s father was mistakenly written as “John” instead of “Robert”. Does that mean MO doesn’t know him that well? Probably.

    3) This tells of the relationship between MO and GZ falling apart: “Upon arrival at the Sanford Police Department he was immediately booked and jailed. Jailed! All along we had told George this couldn’t happen; we probably lost some credibility in George and Shellie’s eyes. I can tell you that from this point on, they were not as open with information and personal thoughts and plans as before.” The anonymous poster said that GZ had already started to distrust MO, suspecting him of talking to a reporter.

    4) MO/SO have not seen GZ or SZ since his release from jail on April 23rd. Their explanation for this: “George’s attorney may have advised that we may be called as witnesses and therefore, information cannot be passed between us any longer; perhaps the limited contact became a way of protecting the Zimmermans and us.” And so they feel it’s ok to pass on information now in the form of a book? Curious.

    5) In his interview with FDLE, MO was asked “Did you know that when George was arrested in Jacksonville, he had a handgun that held over 20 rounds of assault rifle type ammunition, in his possession?” MO’s answer was “The handgun you are describing is my gun. It is a FNH-57. (This gun is ahead of its time as a paper target destroyer and admired by the combat handgun world). I gave it to George,” When told that it was irresponsible of him to give GZ another gun, MO went on a rant about the New Black Panthers, etc. in defending his action. MO wrote “I knew my chances of ever getting transferred to the F.B.I. were now in severe jeopardy, but I had to say what was right instead of what was personally profitable.” Ya know, MO, I think you’re chances of getting into the FBI were already NIL before this and it’s definitely NIL now that this book is out.

    6) Finally, there was another clue supporting the identity of the anonymous poster as being the brother in law Scott (aka code name Ken). A few days ago before the crazy OG lady stopped posting at the nuthouse, she said that she knew who this person was and couldn’t figure out why he/she was doing this considering the fact that he/she let his/her spouse stay with the Osterman’s for 10 days. This book excerpt mentioned how after the arrest, GZ’s sister from “up north” came down to visit and stayed with MO/SO along with Shellie. This really suggests then that the anonymous poster is GZ’s brother in law who helped move money.

    • What does this alleged book by osterman say about arrivng at the retreat, learning of the shooting, moving the ridgeline, and speaking to officers and GZ on the night of the shooting?

      • @WillisNewton, the exerpt below was what I posted above on September 1, 2012 at 7:05 pm. The released text so far does not say anything about moving the ridgeline or about any conversation with GZ. I remember reading some post from diwataman at the nuthouse who is analyzing the police radio transmissions, and he/she estimates that MO and Shellie arrived at 7:30ish pm when the police says something like “we’ve got family coming”. I cringe reading diwataman’s posts but you already know he/she has a blog where you can just get the raw information if interested. He/she has the audio of unedited police radio transmissions from that night.
        *******
        “As Shellie Zimmerman and I approached the yellow crime scene tape blocking off portions of a sidewalk and lawn inside the Twin Lakes community, we noticed a patrol car sitting a hundred feet away. […]

        I nodded to several of the officers on the scene that night because I recognized them from ten years before, when I was in the police department. To one of the officers I said, “I have his wife here next to me; the guy in the police car. His name is George and this is his wife.

        “Can you tell me anything that happened?”

        The Sanford police officer quickly answered, “Oh, don’t worry about it; from what I’ve seen, it’s clean.” This bit of “police jargon” meant, in the officer’s opinion, it was pretty clear what had taken place and there weren’t a lot of questions about the incident.”

        • @WSI –

          WillisNewton makes a very good point, imo. The book is alleged until we see it. Admittedly, the only way I’ll ever see it is if the prosecution makes it evidence (as you suggested).

          I predict it will be on dollar store shelves by December 2012 (before it’s mass shredding to make space for other junk books on dollar store shelves takes place). That’s if Fox or the Treepers advertise it or promote it.

          The only thing I see in this so-called ghost-written book is that the Zimmerman defenders can “fish” for how to confuse the facts and taint a jury pool. The republican motto is why not make a buck in the process of screwing over justice?

          • @CSFC, You’re right, anything that has been posted so far is ‘alleged’ and we don’t know what’s in the final copy. The book is listed only on Amazon, and will most likely be printed on demand. Brick and mortar stores are not carrying it. Vanity publishing means that the authors have to pay for printing and distribution, and I think they believed that their “advertisement” on the treeper website was going to get them lots of orders from supporters, except most of the response has be absolutely negative against them. It’s backfired big time there. Any money that will be made will be by the publisher. Their going on Dr. Phil isn’t going to help either. Of note, the book doesn’t show up if you search for “George ZImmerman” on Amazon. Bad marketing glitch there. Only shows up if you search for the title or “Mark Osterman”, and the book cover is a cheap looking fake newsprint article with an old picture of the beefy George wearing an orange shirt, looking a lot more like his infamous mugshot photo except he’s smiling. The book is only known among people who are obsessed with the case anyway. But you’re right, the general public isn’t gonna give a *(&^#($ about it.

            • @WSI –

              “Of note, the book doesn’t show up if you search for “George ZImmerman” on Amazon. Bad marketing glitch there.”

              I’ve been in lurk-mode today, but this gave me a chuckle. Still remembering Zimmerman’s 404 moment for his begsite relaunch.

        • Looks like that elipse st the end of the first paragraph is where MO would have spotted GZ sitting in the patrol car “100 feet away.”. I guess we will find out after the book is released.

          Thanks for posting the exerpt here- I’m not in the mood to read the treehouse site.

          This book is a whitewash, IMO. And it probably continues the pattern set by GZ : when in doubt, leave it out.

        • In MO’s statement to the FDLE, he met SZ at the scene. Seems really fast for MO to be there at 7:30 pm.

    • re: 4) wonder if Osterman knew about the bail money scam by the zimmermans.

      re: 5) forgive my ignorance about gun laws, but aren’t guns registered to the owner? How can you just give someone your gun ?

      re: 6) thanks for possibly figuring out who the anonymous poster is, I have been wondering.

      • I’ve always wondered if goerge’s father knew about the hidden passport and hidden money. Either GZ lies to his dad or else he is a co connspitator…

      • @LeeLee, they could be lying of course, but I wouldn’t be surprised if GZ didn’t let MO/SO in on the money moving scheme. That seemed to be a family affair. About guns, of course they’re registered to owners but I guess having a concealed weapons permit (which was not revoked by the state!) might be kinda like having a drivers license? Meaning it’s like borrowing your friend’s car for temporary use. I don’t know really. MO is in law enforcement so I guess he knew it was legal albeit stupid to give GZ another gun, this time a fancy one that “real” cops carry.

      • @leelee
        Asks about legality of MO loaning GZ his gun as he states he did in book
        Here’s Fl. Law…as long as someone has a permit , is not a minor, nor convicted felon, not adjudicated insane or a vagrant ( I kid you not, law says this..) everything is hunky dory and as of 2008 ok to take gun to work but need to leave it in glove comp.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Laws_in_Florida

        • You know, there’s something seriously screwed up with this country if people can walk around with weapons in public places where kids go. I’m sorry, but when I go to Target with my kid, I would really rather prefer that it be a gun free zone. Is that too much to ask? If people feel too scared to go places without a gun, then stay home. When I mean home, I mean HOME, not the next street over in somebody else’s back yard either!

            • The NRA is the strongest lobby in Wash. Everything they ask for is given. That is why they had to lobby for fringe, way-out-there issues; hence the enactment of syg and in 2008 take your Glock to work law.but only legal if left in locked box or glove compartment in car.

              Bring your Glock inside work is next ( joke..hope that not in the pipeline)

              NLME, aka Christopher, has trained me so well to provide research link, I’m feeling guilty–but my laziness triumphs this time. It’s in wiki though, promise

            • @2dogs –

              In response to the NRA, I guess we’ll just have to push for pre-employment background screening that includes searching for CCW permit issuance. I’m sure employers don’t want the liability involved.

              But, if that should ever become the norm, the NRA will push for ALL WORKERS TO BE CARRYING in order to keep the workplace “safe”. “If all citizens employees are armed, there will be less crime” in the workplace.

              Gotta sell them guns!

              Sometimes I wonder if the real answer to the NRA will be development of an alternate use (a productive use) for the materials guns are made of which would redirect the interests of that industry and still generate profits for them.

  43. at least everyone who has followed this case can agree on one thing,the Ostermans are slime balls. I am starting to think that the reason GZ went out full of bravado and upped the intensity when observing a “suspect” might be because MO had been blowing hot air up his ass. Think about it, GZ sees MO as some sort of mentor (so they say) and this is a great ego boost for MO who has this guy hanging on his every word, wanting to be just like him. I can imagine MO was feeling pretty important and full of himself, telling his protege all the exciting stories of his career, about the criminals, how he saved the day on many occasions and adding fuel to GZ’s fire of being the big hero, instilling confidence in his ability and trust in his gun while demonizing the young thugs of today.

    MO is doing this because it makes him feel important, he was in the middle of this investigation, he was protector of GZ, i bet he couldn’t wait to shoot his mouth off but knew it would be more profitable to wait and put it all in a book.

    I still think GZ is unremorseful and a liar and every time he opens his mouth i hate him a little more, but after seeing the way this osterman is operating i can understand why someone was killed that night…..when you put together a man who desperately wants to be important (gz) with a man who thinks he’s more important than he is (mo), someones going to get hurt. The good ol’ boys slapping each other on the back and masturbating over how manly they are with their manly guns, with their tall tales about how they saved the day, always trying to one up each other, of course it was going to escalate.

    One thing that worries me is that MO is such a pig that it might work in GZ’s favour and garner him a little bit of sympathy. I hope that is not the case.

    • The Dr. Phil show will be straight gold digging for MO and an attempt at public relations for GZ. But in the clip I saw of the preview season, both Osterman and Ziimerman are going to be skewered by Dr. Phil. Tee hee hee. In a very public setting. It’s kind of like an answer to Sean Hannity.

      This strange case has two very different frames. The Zimm people see the same evidence and circumstances very differently from the Trayvon supporters. They manage to believe every word GZ says. I’m sensing that most of the average people of the world have been swayed against GZ at this point. GZ really needs all the PR he can get and to make Trayvon look as bad as possible.

      I still want to know what really happened. I think it was murder.

      • Jay i just read chapter 6 and MO really does think very highly of himself. Apparently the FBI and FDLE were no match for him during their interview so it will be freakin’ hilarious to watch him get his ass served to him on a platter on internationl television,

      • @Jay –

        “The Zimm people see the same evidence and circumstances very differently from the Trayvon supporters. They manage to believe every word GZ says.”

        Funny you should say that. I was lurking the talkleft forums the other day and I saw a post from somebody who was not a regular who commented something along the line of “so you people are still of the belief that Zimmerman never went any further south than the sidewalk at the tee”. This garnered a response from a regular which was something like “Is there some proof that Zimmerman was further south than the tee?” LOL!!!!

        Bizarro world is all I can say.

        • @CSFC, bizarro world is right! Hmmm, let’s see, where was the body and the shell casing found? Ok, so if they wanna argue that GZ wasn’t south of the T, then he must have shot TM from 50 feet away. OK, not self-defense. Case closed. Ha!

          • Yeah. And on top of that, Zimmerman admitted being on top of Trayvon Martint’s body after the shot as he supposedly spread his hands apart. Maybe they think Zimmerman moved Trayvon Martin’s body to its found location after Zimmerman shot him.

            • @CSFC, actually in Bizarro World, there’s a lot of leeway. To anyone who believes GZ, his inconsistencies are dismissed as just him being overwhelmed. Being knocked down and pounced on at the top of the T to them means he could have reeled 50 feet before he fell down or maybe TM was a super ninja who sent him flying with one punch.

            • After he put his gun back in its holster. I just listened to his first interview again. It is very enlightening to go back and listen to how his story takes it shape.

    • I’d love to hear the real story of osterman’s career as a con artist working to help his buddy impersonate a sports figure and how he got fired from the sheriffs department for doing so. There is bound to be more to that tale than what made the papers.

      This brings up the topic of investigative journalism and how it has been lacking I’m this case. I had hoped some prominent news magazine would have assigned a credible writer to do a long-lead piece on the case that would even lead to a book deal, but my instinct tells me that those day are over. Absent someone who has a budget for travel and rhe stomach to approach every single person involved in this case, we wont ever know the answers to so many great questions I fear.

      The best we’ve had so far is the NYT article on police “misteps” written by the pulitzer prize winning reporter who covered the Elliot Spitzer case. I wish he’d write a book on this case. But even he couldn’t get norm Wolfinger to talk.

      • Speaking of police “missteps”, this kid has some ideas on how to handle the case, i.e., fire all the grownups from neighborhood watch jobs and cop jobs!

          • @2dogsonly, always glad to share a smile. I just thought it was amusing the kid in the video proposing a proper punishment for GZ in the underworld would be him staring at something he loves and not being able to move to get at it. Made me think. Isn’t it odd that no one has talked about what he liked to do in his spare time? As a hobby. And I mean things other than wannabe cop related things (going gun shooting, doing police ride-alongs, patrolling neighborhood, tailing young black teenagers). Or did he really devote all of his extra energy to that? Just not normal.

        • Sorry, was asking willisnewton to post link to Pulitzer prize author from NYT on police missteps.

          • good article, well written, and the reporter went out and GOT the story himself without waiting for a press release, or court order to spark the writing. This sort of reporting used to be common, because editors supported it and funded it and expected it. Compare this sort of reporting to what is printed in the Miami and Orlando papers, the sort of pieces that always start with a press conference or a court order and see the difference.

            Say what you will about the MSM and the NYT in particular, this reporter is doing his job well IMO. [/rant]

            Note he likely did not speak to Serino or SIngleton, and was influenceed by Bill Lee’s version of events but still wrote a good piece. Wolfinger wouldn’t talk to him, either.

            xx

    • @jo
      Says most everyone can agree Ostermans are slime balls

      Brand new review on Amazon says Osterman also fired from his air marshal job ( didn’t know that…doesn’t say why)

      A different reviewer named Sharon Soderman gave new 5 star rating saying not to believe bad reviews as bunch of old biddies ( at least she leaves out cat people snipe) from an anti Z blog.

      Then she says MO knows cause he was THERE. A reviewer
      counters with ” are you saying MO was present at the shooting?” That is very annoying to her so replies “you need to get a life snark”. Oh SNAP 🙂 we are down for the count

      • @2dogsonly, out of curiosity, how do you know that reviewer’s last name? Is she an admin at the nuthouse?

  44. urgh…i’m just reading chapter 6. GZ wasn’t sure about signing with Sonner because it looked like Sonner wanted to reap financial rewards from books, interviews etc. Osterman says “I just don’t like the verbage in the contract at all. It seems inordinately slanted toward the attorney making money, instead of representing you fairly.”

    Which means “slanted toward the attorney making money, instead of you making money”.

    Gee, even early on they were viewing Trayvons death as a way of making money, i guess gunning down an innocent kid can be quite lucrative.

    also….Shellie was doing clinical work at a hospital. I guess this means she wasn’t feeling threatened at that time and in hiding..

    apparantly those wanting george arrested weren’t happy with just his arrest, they wanted blood…..what the. I thought all the protests stopped at this point, what a load of crap.

    This passage sounds like he took it straight from the wagist or the nuthouse ..”The people who were clamoring, “No Justice, No Peace,” bullied the authorities with threats to riot if an arrest was not made. The threat was real. Imagine the billions of dollars of damage in every city in America if an arrest had not been made. All this, is at George Zimmerman’s expense. And what if the verdict isn’t to their liking? The voices are not going to stop or be satisfied with only an arrest and trial; they want the only acceptable verdict … guilty as charged!

    I don’t remember any threats to riot, i only remember whack jobs on web sites saying that there would be riots if the “mob didn’t get what they wanted.

    They knew the calls were recorded and had nicknames for M & SO….but why? MO was at the police station with him several times, he was at the crime scene, they knew about him. Why did they have code names for them? but they were stupid enough to talk of money and passports knowing it was being recorded. Make sense it does not.

    He’s describing when they interviewed him….MO thinks he’s smarter than the FBI pffft.. Actually this part is hilarious reading, he’s really big noting himself. Apparently he’s running the interview and allows the FDLE to go in a different direction, what a wank!

    according to Mark Osterman, Mark Osterman is a hero.

    • We dont know what GZ told osterman about what happened that night. We do seem to get the gist of what osterman thinks the world needs to hear and what he claims GZ told him.

      GZs father seems pretty specific about what he heard. I get the feeling George had his basic cover story formed quickly – it’s inconsistent and flawed but he made it up himself, and it centers around his not wing seen as the aggressor, ever. He’s left out two major aspects of the actual events: one is that TM ran away from his moving car and George pursued him on foot, and the second is that the likely blow to his face was delivered in John W6’s back yard, after an altercation that doesn’t match George’s account. The first is easily proven; the second is more circumstantially shown to be the most likely explanation.

      In the end osterman and all he said and all he did is ultimately a distraction. The prosecution can and possibly should ignore him, even if he was the “tipoff man” unless they can prove it in court. George’s phone records will speak to that issue but may not be conclusive. I tend to think Goerge never laid eyes on Trayvon until he drove south past the mail kiosk but absent a confession not sure you can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. It may not be worth trying to in a trial. IANAL however.

      He’s a facinating puzzle piece but I’m not sure it matters in the end. George’s words and George’s actions alone will secure his conviction.

      • Did you know that GZ told Sean Hannity that he found Trayvon 30 seconds after saying, “He ran.” There’s a bizarro statement from one dumber than a bag of rocks.

        This is the reason I don’t study what GZ says other than his NEN call. How could he possibly see Trayvon while still so early in the call? I ask you!

        • I dunno. Maybe GZ means he feels he saw TM 30 seconds after hanging up with dispatch. It’s not likely to be true literally, since we know there are “missing minutes” but what we dont know is whether or not GZ spotted Trayvon with his flashlight from a distance or not.

          • Trayvon had a massive headstart when he ran. GZ says later in his call, “I don’t know where this kid is.” DeeDee says Trayvon thinks he lost the guy. And I’ve been thinking they had lost each other for a time. That Trayvon was found again was due to the facts that Trayvon did not feel he needed to leave The Retreat and GZ put on a rigorous, relentless search for him.

            Could it be that GZ never really lost Trayvon? That he was close the whole time? That GZ knew where Trayvon was when he said he didn’t?

            And who was the other neighbor with W13 (flashlight) and GZ? W5 and W6 see two flashlights and think they are neighbors coming out well before the police arrive. I want to ask W13 who else had a flashlight. Was GZ using one of his flashlights after leaving the body and meeting W13?

            I’d ask GZ but he would say, “Gosh, I have this real bad memory. I can’t remember, Everything happened so fast. I really can’t say.” Anything not in his memorized script by now he probably never will talk about. Notice he never tells us about W19 and her barking dog, Austin and his dog, Selma asking him questions, or W13 taking pictures before the police arrive.

            • Hey, SJ. I can’t remember where GZ said it, but he made the remark that he made eye contact with and yelled for help to three different people. I’m making assumptions here that this includes W19 and W14 along with W6 (IIRC, Austin’s # is 14 – correct me if I’m wrong). I think he only made this remark once from what I remember. What’s funny… you wouldn’t think the person supposedly getting their head slammed and face beat would be conscious of any of these people’s presence, but especially not the two way down the path. I think that’s why he dropped it. I think he only ever stated it to bolster his claim of calling for help.

              I do think it’s funny he wants to leave Mary and Selma out. He never mentioned them in the reenactment. He can remember that while his ass is getting beat/losing consciousness that John and other people came out, but he can’t recall the two women who had to repeatedly try to get his attention. LOL. Can’t wait to hear what the teacher has to say about GZ’s story of jumping onto TM after TM was shot.

            • The remark may have been to MO then repeated by MO in his statement when interviewed.

    • It almost goes without saying that osterman is as dumb as a bag full of rocks and is wrong about the “new Panthers” not being roundly condemned by the family of Trayvon Martin but I do feel it needs to be noted. The Martin family and all their surrogates continually called for calm, peaceful protests and they got what they asked for.

      Osterman (if indeed this is his work) claims otherwise and is factually wrong in the claim that nothing was done about the “new panthers” publicity stunt regarding a wanted poster. He’s opened himself up to a libel suit possibly if he goes to print with the accusation that the family stood by silently while a “bounty” was set for George. Osteman’s publisher (a piece of work in his own right) may be liable too.

      • yes i distinctly remember them saying they don’t want any violence and do not condone it. Funny how they all whinge about Georges treatment but i’ve never seen any of them tell GZ’s supporters to pull their fucking heads in and stop the vile attacks on all family, friends and witnesses that don’t support GZ’s story. I’ve seen some of the most repulsive statements made about Trayvon Martin, the dead victim, and propaganda to stock up weapons and be ready to use them when the “mob” goes crazy, without a word of condemnation from team z supporters, friends or family.

  45. I just noticed this little tidbit I had not seen before.

    Mary Cutcher tells Serino:
    “And they are the ones who called 911 originally saying there’s a fight out front.”

    We know that Jen and Jeremy told investigators the fight was more in back of their townhome. But is this an indication that Mary had reason to believe the argument and altercation was out front of 1211 TTL at some point? That would be in the front yard or out on the street Twin Trees Lane. It could even mean where that sidewalk cut-thru starts at TTL.

    If there’s anything to this it would be that Mary was talking to neighbors and hearing things through The Retreat grapevine. I think she was bothered by not having paid attention to the build up or escalation and only remembered the crying part.

    Mary:
    “The thing that really struck me I assumed I’m going to stay out of it. I wrote the least, you know, just exactly word for word what we saw, we were really shooken up.

    An hour or two after the shooting Selma gave a short statement to the police. Mary wrote it for her. Mary did not make a statement of her own because Selma was outside longer while Mary was distracted with 911 and concerned for her daughter who was across RVC at a neighbor’s house at the time. Mary was scared for the same reason W3 was. They both thought the shooter had run and thought he was armed and dangerous.

    Mary:
    But once I heard that somebody at the end of the townhouse, you know, townhouses are connected. So, at the end… the very, very end is where the fight started.

    So, she’s out canvasing the neighborhood. She was preparing to speak to SPD and go very public on news shows so wanted to know what she was saying. She emphasized that her words are 100% accurate. Seems Mary might have talked to somebody who lives close to that front area. Or she might have got the impression of the fight being out front from W11 or W20. I kinda do as they told Serino it came around the corner.

    • What ever happene to marina dave’s alleged witness who claims he saw GZ run ahead of Trayvon and spin around on him?

      I’ve lost track of which one of W4,7or 10 that is still unknown. BDLR claims witnesses (plural) to a foot chase. So far I’d say Dee Dee, Sean the NEN dispatcher and W2 are the likeliest candidates but it sure would be convenient for the prosecution if marina dave’s witness were real, and cooperating.

      • Would be indeed. Don’t hear too much about that one. I read it and put it in the OdessaGirl pile because it’s never been substantiated and relies on a person that told somebody something that may or may not have been from a direct witness’s vantage point and possibly from a friend of a friend of a friend’s cousin that used to work at the RedBox down the street from Zimmerman’s cousin’s barber. (just being silly here)

        I don’t know what to take seriously or believe about the folks of Sanford any more. Seems like a depressed little racist town of grifters trying to escape to Alaska or something.

        • Thanks, and good to see you, Amsterdam. I knew Chad and Brandy had been identified but wasn’t sure about the third person.

          There are still things to come from the state’s discovery. I don’t know if we will get more eyewitnesses to the actual incident or not however. Seems unlikely to me but then again so many things about this case are unlikely.

          Looks like we may never know what went on in the “missing minutes” unless George confesses. Many things are possible, what GZ claims is highly questionable and unsupported by physical evidence as well.

          • Hi Willisnewton
            Good to see you too. Second discovery list mentions memo’s included for W4, 7 and 10. So that is how I deduced they must be Brandy, Chad and the cousin.
            The state filed their last discovery on August 12th. The defense has 30 days to review it, so it should be released to the public today or tomorrow.

      • Selma said the girl living in the cornerunit told me to go back inside, because there was a shooting. I have a hard time matching that with the statements of the female witnesses living in the cornerunits. So maybe there are still more witnesses.

    • There was a meeting of residents with the police on the Thursday. The police must have put their version, but they were asking for witnesses who’d not yet come forward. But all the residents who attended were talking about what they saw/ heard, did etc. I’ve only seen mention o this meeting. I’ve not heard of any tape or other records being kepi of what went on, or even who attended.

  46. If anyone cares, the Dr. Phil show season premiere with the Ostermans looks like it’s delayed until Tuesday Sept 11 (per the show’s website). I’m guessing it’s because of delays in the US open.

    • I’m not going to watch unless it gets posted somewhere convenient. But it could go all week. The Martin family will be on, too, with Crump and Parks.

      It seems to be some kind of Dr. Phil theme on African-Americans or something, I can’t remember what. Maybe black teens who get murdered by loose cannons. Or people who pack pistols legally but for emotional and psychological reasons shouldn’t.

      • “Or people who pack pistols legally but for emotional and psychological reasons shouldn’t.”

        You mean like people who are unstable, stupid dopes with short man, small dick syndrome? 😛

        • “Or What Happens When Abused Children Grow Up As Angry Adults…A Case Study”

          Or “Before There’s A Victimizor, There’s A Victim ( take a parenting class instead)

    • 9/11? Really? How peculiar.

      I would think the media would be doing a bunch of memorials about 9/11 all day.

  47. Who can read, listen, and watch all the crap put out in this case. However all over the map the few supporters GZ has left…. every time I read more into the discovery I find more to reinforce I have not lost my mind.
    1. April 20 2012 bond hearing; Gladys Z. (under oath whatever) at one point says she leases out 1950 RVC to G & S Z. O’Mara talks over her. Check it out I do not think I am crazy.

    O’Mara and his forensic accountant……distract distract….where is the forensic accounting of monies being collected and used/paid by said donations by/for/of/to Mark O’Mara and if O’Mara took down the gzlegalcase from facebook why is Osterman’s gone as well. Just curious.

  48. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/10/167854/george-zimmermans-lawyers-seek.html
    *** “Defense lawyers argue that if the defendant’s social media sites and school records were reviewed by prosecutors, it’s only fair game for Trayvon to undergo the same scrutiny…..If successful, and negative rumors about Trayvon’s social media comments that have circulated the Internet for months are proven true, they would be posted on the defense website and offered legitimacy.” ***

    Can this be called an attempt to taint the jury pool directly by the defense lawyers? How is it legitimacy for him to transfer stuff from the internet cesspool to his website? I’ve said before, go ahead and see what they can dig up and then we’ll see who looks better in the light of day. What would be fair is for him to also post a comparison chart of evidence of past violent behavior between GZ vs. TM.

    But do they really wanna talk about what’s fair? TM was walking along minding his own business, was unarmed and got a bullet through the heart. He isn’t the one in a hotel room being supported by strangers with a murder charge on his head. He’s 6 ft under, that’s what’s NOT fair!

    • re: social media “outing” of parties in the case:

      Two wrongs don’t make a right, and if they expect a judge to rule that is true then they are barking up the wrong tree. Again I agree that the request for social media from TM is just a way to appease their supporters and continue to try to raise money from a dwindling pool of potential donors.

      I think the Z family in general buys into the treehouse theories hook line and sinker and may he pushing O’Mara to respond legally and publicly to appease this crowd. It’s a dangerous game, IMO.

      They’d be better off served if they stayed off the internet and television and just STFU until the trial came along. Every time any of them opens their mouth they stick their collective foot further in it.

  51. Just found this early local report of the shooting posted originally on Feb. 29. Is the son of the woman interviewed one of the known witnesses? Is it Jeremy? She said he went to look and saw the body. There’s also an aerial shot of police cars parked at the community that night. Don’t know if you guys had already seen this, or can make of anything in it, but it may be of interest to somebody.
    http://www.wftv.com/news/news/police-man-neighborhood-watch-shoots-kills-teen-vi/nK8LR/

    • FWIW that car that may or may not be the honda ridgeline is visible (barely) in the helicopter footage and at one point the door is open and at another point a figure is walking very near it.

      Unless the actual footage were examined, you can’t “enhance” it well enough to tell if it’s the ridgeline or not. Earlier explorations seemed to arrive at a consensus that it was not. I’m still uncertain myself. If it is indeed the Honda Ridgeline, it’s likely been moved there by Shellie Zimmerman or Mark Osterman.

      the pseudo ridgeline on the ground

      here is an “enhanced” shot from the ground of the “is it an SUV or a Ridgeline?”

      I’m not good enough at recognizing modern cars – they all look like slightly used bars of soap to me. There was some discussion of where the license plate was located that I recall… sorry I don’t have the details at hand.

      The cluster of cars seen in the heli footage are parked on RVC at the end of the cut thru path where GZ says he walked to. You can barely see the god walk area at one point and there’s what looks like a flashlight probing around near where the white wal mart bag would be….

      None of this means much of anything that I can tell, but maybe someone else could get more details out of it than I. THere are quite a few other passenger/ civilian cars seen around but all on RVC. I can’t see TTL in any of the heli shots.

      • It is frustrating isn’t it? I don’t know much about cars, but I compared your photo with photo’s of the Ridgeline. I don’t think it is a Ridgeline. The back window is different. The bottom right corner of the back windows of the Ridgeline, are cut off diagonally. The sides of the loading area, line up differently with the windows, and the back license plate on the Ridgeline, is placed on the back bumper.

        The clubhouse videos, Zimmerman’s description of where his car is located in the nen call, make me believe he left his car, where he said he did. However, in the eastpool video, you can see a car driving west on TTL going towards the north gate, around 7:15:00. So it is not impossible that Zimmerman moved his car after he ended the nen call.

        • The position of the pseudo-Ridgeline is what’s so bothersome. It’s right where GZ would likely park if he had indeed moved from his TTL “Frank Taafe/ according to George” spot (as I call it) and that vehicle seems to have arrived BEFORE the cop cars, since they are parked elsewhere.

          Thanks Amsterdam for pointing out where it’s confirmed that Bill Lee was on the scene that night. In spite of the fact that I still think there is too much that we will never know, it’s amazing what we DO know about the event of that evening just by studying what’s been in the public realm. So many things I originally thought we’d never get to hear about have found their way to the surface already.

    • I was wondering myself about that witness. I can’t fit the baby or the witness statements with any of the known witnesses. No mention by W11 and W17 don’t mention any babies while they were fleeing to a save hiding place. Joe Manola never looked outside, and he and his wife were assembling furniture. Those are the only couples we know about.
      I’ve been wondering about the other people on that block. We know that the man living next to Joe Manola, wasn’t home.

      • Also, that woman’s last name is Nevin. Of course mothers don’t always have the same name as their sons but that name hasn’t been seen on any of the witness lists either. Is that right Screaming Jay?

        • This one is new to me. There may be some other civilians that came forward or will come forward. I feel there were others that will be necessary in the trial. For example, when GZ was tapping and therefore shining his flashlight around in the dark somebody probably saw him. There are definitely no Nevins in the numbered 20. Remember, the list was alphabetized by last name when it was made. N would have been after W16 (the last M) and before W17 (the first S).

          We can solve the case with the first 20 by making extensive comparisons between sets of them on specific questions. W4 is Cheryl Brown (Austin’s mom). That’s the only home with 3 witnesses. W7 is Brandy Green. W10 seems to be Chad (Brandy’s son).

          • I don’t think it is Cheryl Brown. I think it is Trayvon’s cousin. The second evidence dump list, lists that memo’s are concluded for w4, w7 and w10. A memo is included for Trayvon’s cousin but not for Cheryl Brown. I’ve been able to link all the actual memo’s with the list of witnesses included in the second discovery dump list. The 3 memo’s left were Trayvon’s cousin, Chad and Brandy Green. The 3 witnesses left listed as having memo’s included in the dump were w4, w7 and w10.

            • I think you may be right. I can’t see Cheryl Brown as a witness since she wasn’t there. I know they have a statement from Trayvon Martin’s cousin. At a minimum, he’s a witness that identified the voice of Trayvon Martin screaming for help on the 9-1-1 call.

          • @Jay and WSI –

            Same here re the Nevin lady. Would be awesome if this is a totally new witness we hadn’t heard about. My gut tells me she’s the mother of one of the witnesses we already know about. I’m thinking it’s Manalo’s wife (or live in girlfriend’s) mom.

            • Re: Nevin lady. Wasn’t it her son that was said to live there? In any case, her accent does match Manalo’s or his wife’s. I wouldn’t think that she’s the mother of either of them. Or are you confusing him with Witness 6?

            • @CSFC, I dunno. I’m gonna risk profiling here and say their ethnicities don’t match, but more importantly their accents and names don’t match so I wouldn’t think the Nevin lady is related to JonW13. She did just say he went to look and saw the body. He could be an unwilling witness to the aftermath. The way some of those camera shots were made and where she was pointing made me think that her son lives in a townhome on the TTL side, maybe further down the T just south of W3 (I’m looking at Tchoupi’s map). Just a hunch. If so, he would have been about as far away from the body as the teacher witness, just a different angle. It would be nice to have another witness corroborate what GZ was doing after the shooting.

            • @WSI –

              I actually don’t remember anything about the mom’s ethnicity. I based my guess that it was Manalo on the woman saying her son went outside and saw the body. Manalo’s the only one we know of that. Nevins said they have a baby. You can hear what sounds like small child on his interview recordings.

              I think Manalo is the asian man bloggers refer to, but I think his wife may be hispanic listening to the way she says “You’re the attureney of” during Manalo’s March 20 interview by FDLE. I could be wrong on that.

            • Correction:

              @WSI –

              I actually don’t remember anything about the mom’s ethnicity. I based my guess that it was Manalo on the woman saying her son went outside and saw the body. Manalo’s the only one we know of that did that. Nevins said they have a baby. You can hear what sounds like small child on his interview recordings.

              I think Manalo is the asian man bloggers refer to, but I think his wife may be hispanic listening to the way she says “You’re the attureney of” during Manalo’s March 20 interview by FDLE. I could be wrong on that.

  52. http://www.drphil.com/
    Dr. Phil’s website has a couple of new clips from today’s show online already (go to middle of the page and put your cursor over the banners right under the one that says “Trayvon Martin Shooting”, and click on the right arrow until you get to the clip). I’ve transcribed them below. Not any new info. Just interesting MO’s amazing foresight into how, when he helped GZ pick out the gun, that he knew someday GZ would be engaged in a life or death struggle on the ground! Amazing.

    ******FIRST CLIP ********
    DR. PHIL: You speak with great absoluteness, you say he is in the right, he did what he was supposed to do, he stood his ground. How could you say that when you weren’t there?

    MARK: Good question. I have tried my best to be objective. Um. But things that George was telling me was actually falling right in line with what evidence we did know. And it was evidence that no one else would have known, because we had him in our home. From the night of the shooting, he was in our presence.

    DR. PHIL: You’re in law enforcement
    MARK: I am.
    DR. PHIL: And I’m not gonna say anymore than that.
    MARK:That reflects nothing upon any agency that I belong to. They have no impact on this whatsoever, this is completely my….
    DR. PHIL: Certainly, I understand. You helped him pick out the gun…
    MARK: Yes, sir.
    DR. PHIL: That he ultimately shot and killed Trayvon Martin with.
    MARK: Yes, sir.
    DR. PHIL: Kay, that makes me wonder, if you are now bought into a point where you say “I’ve gotta defend the guy now, cuz I’m in the chain here.” Does that mean that you need to defend him here? Because if not, you’ve got some ownership in this?
    MARK: From my perspective, when I look at the firearm that we chose. Um, we went out, we selected it, for what fit his budget, but also what worked best to defend yourself. There are a lot of different firearms you use for different purposes, but one for, designed for self defense, this was the *perfect* weapon.
    DR. PHIL: You said you picked a gun that did not have an external safety. Why is that?
    MARK: If you happen to be in a face to face scuffle, fight, that happens to go to the ground, and it’s a life or death struggle, to be able to draw your weapon, and then have another process to actually take the safety off, many times people have been killed and have died from an attack because they keep squeezing the trigger and not be able to deploy it.
    DR. PHIL: Now could that also be an advantage. It seems to me to take out a step, which means that a flash decision can happen, without any…
    MARK: Sure.
    DR. PHIL: …any step whatsoever.
    MARK: Sure
    DR. PHIL: Lemme ask you this. I’ve lived in neighborhoods all of my life that have had neighborhood watch programs. And it’s a neighborhood WATCH program, not a neighborhood HUNT program. Not a neighborhood VIGILANTE program. (Audience claps) And one of the things in every rule that I’ve ever seen in any of the by-laws of our watch programs and any that I’ve ever heard is that it is WATCH, OBSERVE, and REPORT. And that the recommendations are, and you acknowledge it in your book, it’s very well articulated, You do NOT take a firearm on a watch..when you’re out working in the neighborhood.
    MARK:Absolutely.
    DR. PHIL: And here’s a guy on a watch program, packing a gun with no safety, it just smacks to me of Rambo, macho, stompin’ around the neighborhood with a gun! (Audience claps)
    That bothers me and I think it bothers a lot of people.
    SONDRA: I think what a lot of people don’t know is that on that particular night, George was not doing neighborhood watch function. He was actually on his way out of his home to run a personal errand, and if you know George, the way we know George, he carries his gun with him always.
    MARK: He’s legally allowed to have it one him.

    ******2nd Clip ********
    MARK: Terrible fury was felt for George, because the television media that wanted, they were, it seemed like they were reality TV with sponsors. All they wanted to make it so sensational and so outrageous, to me I understand why people have gotten so ferocious in their defense…
    DR. PHIL: So you’re trying to unring that bell.
    Mark: (Sighs) Oh my gosh…
    DR. PHIL: Do you understand the core of this story, this child here, went to get some skittles and got shot dead, so no matter how much you sensationalize that, at the core of it, you’ve got some very heinous events here. And I’m not saying that things don’t get sensationalized in the media, but I think what you’re saying is an absolute insult to the American public’s intelligence (Audience claps) to believe that they buy into the hype and don’t have thoughtfulness enough to look at the core events here.
    MARK: Well, just to wait until some evidence is released. That’s what I was hoping would happen. Analyze that and base your feelings on what might have happened from witness statements and from the lie detector tests, from the investigation…
    DR. PHIL: You think people should wait.
    MARK: That’s the only thing I’ve ever wanted.

    • So based on the clips above, it seems like MO/SO are peddling a book. A curious thing I noticed. Until yesterday, the book was only available on Amazon . They had just changed the release date from Sept 18 to Sept 11 (today). Fine. but then it showed up on Barnes and Noble website for just one day (yesterday), and now it’s gone. Wonder if someone at Barnes and Noble actively pulled it. Also, today at Amazon, it says that the book will usually ship in 1 to 2 months (No guys, I’m not ordering it, that’s just what it says). That’s 1-2 months, not days. The publisher also doesn’t have it on their website either. They’re doing such a good job with this fundraising!

    • This would be hilarious stuff, if one could stifle the impulse to cry.

      “MARK: Good question. I have tried my best to be objective. Um. But things that George was telling me was actually falling right in line with what evidence we did know. And it was evidence that no one else would have known, because we had him in our home. From the night of the shooting, he was in our presence.”

      snarky translation” We got it straight from the horse’s southbound end! He lied to us PERSONALLY! (logic fail #2320008)

      DR. PHIL: You’re in law enforcement
      MARK: I am.
      DR. PHIL: And I’m not gonna say anymore than that.

      snark translation:

      “And I was fired from LE for lying, cheating and helping to steal. But after 911, the air marshals would hire anyone, even a loser like me. That’s why I can’t say more.”

      MARK: From my perspective, when I look at the firearm that we chose. Um, we went out, we selected it, for what fit his budget, but also what worked best to defend yourself. There are a lot of different firearms you use for different purposes, but one for, designed for self defense, this was the *perfect* weapon.

      translation:
      “it was cheap and lacked an external safety but would hold a lot of hollow point rounds. It’s all you need to kill someone with if you are predisposed to do so.”

      [/snark]

      I get the feeling that Zimmerman never really let anyone, even Shellie and MO in on the inside of his story. He’s holding it all in and they choose to believe his lies. Months ago I had thought that perhaps George was coached by his father and someone in LE about how to handle the questioning, and I still think he had some help, but my gut instinct is that he’s never told anyone – certainly not his lawyer – what really happened that night. Were he ever to tell someone, it would have been Mark Osterman I think. But he hasn’t. If he was coached, it was in general terms – “include a death threat, exclude anything aggressive on your part,” things of this nature. Like many I think GZ “flipped” many details of what he did and put them on TM. Others he invented. Much he excludes, as is his proven pattern for inculpatory details. I don’t happen to think resident witnesses and ballistics and expert testimony will be that important to the prosecution. IMO George and his own lies will be the bulk of the case against him, and Dee Dee will only corroborate that he’s pushed a false narrative when that can be proven easily using only his own words.

      Again this is only my opinion but I think now more than ever that he received a tip off of some kind and never say TM until he passed the mail kiosk. Then he shadowed TM with his car, and jogged after him when the teen ran away. We don’t know for sure what happened next but whatever it was, the teen was justified at that point in defending himself against this hostile stranger. It’s also obvious that GZ is lying about how the fight / argument / confrontation migrated and the details of his being struck/ smothered / and head-bashed. What DID happen is probably unknowable absent a confession, but that hardly matters.

      IANAL and I don’t claim to be able to predict what a jury will do, but I think the state has a strong case for M2. But I don’t think the prosecution needs to, or will want to prove all that George has done wrong that evening. I think they should stick to a very basic narrative – George ran after the kid and George found the kid and George shot the kid but wasn’t in physical danger of fear at the time. Add to that the testimony of the boy’s mother saying it was her son calling for help – whether it can be proven or not – and a jury is going to vote for a conviction on at least manslaughter charges.

      • I have the Dr. Phil interview DVRed and plan to watch it tonight. From what I’ve read of Twitter, Mark Osterman tried to say George Zimmerman was diagnosed with a concussion the day following the shooting?! That’s unequivocally false — the family doctor/nurse noted no sign of a concussion.

        • @NLME –

          MO has shown more than once in the interview that he disregarded the evidence in favor of pushing the Zimmerman tale.

          In addition to the concussion baloney, MO claimed Zimmerman is a desk jockey with no fighting skills. Maybe that’s what MO believes constitutes street creds. So, MO would have to be an ignorant, uninformed, allergic to facts Fox Newser (like Robert Zimmerman, Sr. is) to NOT KNOW that Zimmerman has a history of violence.

          Can’t wait to see the ATF undercover officer and Zimmerman’s ex who he was maybe trying to creep with while married to Shellie get on the stand.

          Would love for the State to verify and release the bouncer bit and the tax-cheating involved in working under the table.

    • Spoiler alert (but nothing major or surprising from MO).
      More clips of the show are on the website:
      http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1866/

      1) Mark said he didn’t talk to GZ until after he was out of the police station at about 3 am of the morning following the shooting. Sondra saw GZ at the kitchen table after she dropped her daughter off at school in the morning. They said he had black and blue eyes (I still can’t see black eyes on the pictures!), bandages (Shellie put them there) and a CONCUSSION (evidence? None).
      2) Mark had never heard about the allegations from the Arab-American co-worker and GZ taunting him with racist jokes for months. (I thought Sondra or at least crazy OG lady had been on the net and reading blogs. Never heard of this?)
      3) Mark parroted GZ’s claim that the dispatcher asked him if he could still see TM (we know that’s the question that was not asked). Also that he was trying to get an address (why do they wanna keep to that story?) to give the police officer.
      4) GZ got struck and fell on his back (no talk of flyswatting or how he ended so far down south).
      5) They still believe it was George yelling for help.
      6) They conceded that if GZ had never gotten out of the car, none of this would have happened.
      7) Beyond asking them if GZ was a racist and them denying it, there was no discussion in the show about profiling, no question of why he thought TM was suspicious, etc.
      8) About the death threats on GZ’s life, he was ready to defend his friend and that if anyone were to come to his house, they would not be dealing with “an amateur shooter anymore”. (Macho man!)
      9) Towards the end of the show, with Alicia Martin sitting there and crying (Sondra didn’t say much either, also tearing), to explain why he believed ultimately GZ had no choice but to shoot or be killed by TM, Mark made the claim that GZ had never been in a fist fight and that he was not a physical match (bouncer man with no muscles?) because TM was an athlete (re: the photo of TM in a football uniform when he was 14). Alicia’s response: “Trayvon was skinny! Zimmerman’s a GROWN MAN! He could’ve pushed him off.”

      Disappointingly, at the end of the show Dr. Phil says that he’s read the book and thought that it was “factual”. I think he meant that he got the sense that they were not doing it for the money for themselves (but for GZ) and wanted to get what THEY thought were the facts out. Too bad for them even the treepers don’t wanna buy the book either, and the tweet from GZ’s lawyer’s office says “Osterman’s book and TV spot, although well-intentioned, are ill-timed and done without input and NOT approved by the defense.”

      Oh well, their 1 hour of fame is over.

      • Thanks for the run down. I’m watching currently. Still worth it to watch myself? It’s already driving me crazy, lol.

          • “Zimmy says…..”

            GZ’s written statement was given at the police station before he left at 3am the next morning right? If that’s the case, and MO didn’t talk to him before giving that statement, then GZ has to take ownership of all the lies.

            Funny, MO says there are other “friends” that he has, who he would wonder about if they were involved in something like this, but not George. Now all of his friends are thinking “Is that ME he’s talking about?” Gonna be some awkward dinner parties.

      • I know no one cares, but MO’s book started out ranked at about 200,000 on Amazon. Earlier today there was an uptick in ranking to about 25,000 and now it’s back down to 40,000. I have no idea how Amazon rankings work, but I’m guessing that only about 10 times more books were sold on the day of release than from preorders. It’s so hard to find the link to their book on Dr. Phil’s (he doesn’t have a permanent link to it, you kinda have to go looking for the show and then the link, which will probably disappear by next week) and since it doesn’t even show up when you type in George ZImmerman on Amazon, the sales will plummet to 0 by tomorrow. By the way, most all of the “reviews”/comments on the book at Amazon are about how it is inaccurate, etc. I like how a couple of the reviewers have even directed people to reading about the case online using publically released documents and evidence rather than reading the book. There’s also even one negative review by a pro-GZ person, probably a treeper. How ironic.

        • HaHaHa! The “Brittney Hughes” review was on point! Somebody from bcclist gave a good review as well (“cautious shopper”).

          All in all, it looks like another flopped production put out by the zimmerman grifter machine.

          • I would encourage anyone else from here to pen additional reviews/comments for the book on Amazon with a succinct list of things of facts the general public should know. Most people don’t have easy access to all the info we have here, or the patience/ attention span to read through a lot of stuff. Maybe suggest TChoupi’s site as that has many details on one page and it’s very visual. I’d do it myself except I don’t have an Amazon account anymore since my credit card number was stolen years ago right after making just one order.

            • Same-same here re the Amazon account. I was ready to add my 2 cents, but an account is needed. The other “reviewers” covered what I would have said anyway.

          • @commonforchange
            “Cautious shopper gave good review”

            Why, thank you dear!

            Btw, the only other 5 star rating by name of Tracy( has Lupus per her other reviews) is gone.
            And apparently the BOOK is now gone.. ” out of print”. Another giant screw up brought to us by the gift that keeps on giving. 🙂

          • Sorry folks, I know ya’ll were dying to get your hands on MO’s paper back book but looks like they’re outta stock at Amazon after having sold 6 copies there. Again, bad publisher and marketing strategy? Or did they pull the book from Amazon after attracting 15 rather negative reviews/comments about the book, MO personally and the case? Just rhetorical questions. By the way, if you’re wondering why I’m obsessed with this non-issue, I just have a budding interest in the publishing world and I’m certainly learning what not to do if I ever do write a book: Don’t defend a lying accused murderer, and hire somebody to market the book properly. Ok, the new discovery will be out in a few days, hang on we’ll have somethin’ better to talk about soon!

            http://www.novelrank.com/asin/1622958462

      • i’ll reply to myself, never mind..

        MARK: If you happen to be in a face to face scuffle, fight, that happens to go to the ground, and it’s a life or death struggle, to be able to draw your weapon, and then have another process to actually take the safety off, many times people have been killed and have died from an attack because they keep squeezing the trigger and not be able to deploy it.

        I think he just described what really happened that night, which is what one of the witnesses mentioned to (arguing or fighting) and many of us here believe happened. He tried to detain Trayvon who tried to get away and fight him off, it went to the ground.

        Thanks MO for this insight to the truth.

        • @jo – I caught this, too. I think he’s mostly just regurgitating the main/most consistent part of GZ’s tall tale. I did find no mention of the menacing dog interesting.

        • Hey Jo, I’ve already accused 2dogsonly of talking to (her?)self. Now you too? 🙂 Sorry, I don’t always reply to the replies to my comments. Actually, I would like to know if there are any stats on how often it is that a person dies because they didn’t get to take the safety off in time versus the number of deaths that could have been prevented if there WAS a safety on a gun. I’ll bet there’s a huge number in the latter situation. If that’s the case, then how do we justify risking all those needless deaths? Notice how MO let’s it slip out “It’s possible….” and then back peddles to saying he’s absolutely sure that TM would have killed GZ that night. I don’t think he believes deep down that TM could have or would have killed GZ. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he had to appear resolute because of the position he’s in. On a different note, I wonder how GZ feels about the title of the book written by his best friends containing the words “The most hated man in America?”

          • hi WSI…sorry i didn’t mean it to seem like i was expecting a reply from you, i was wanting to make another comment and adding on to my previous comment seemed to be the place it fit best, just felt a bit silly replying to myself haha….

            buying the gun seemed all about what the best gun is if you get into a fight with another person. That’s what makes me think GZ was full of bravado because of his buddy instilling a sort of mentality in him about being above the rest and having a right to question people and play cop. Eventually SOMEONE was going to get shot. With those two feeding off each other and making each other feel important some poor victim was going to find himself in the position of having to answer to GZ and he was just itching to use his gun. MO has a lot to answer for as far as i’m concerned.

            Basically GZ bought a gun “in case” he happened to find himself in the exact position that he miraculously did find himself in, a situation he created himself….of course he chose a lone child, he could easily intimidate. Those guys had been training for this moment and it nearly went perfectly…too bad the poor kid was a complete innocent with parents that were willing to fight for justice.

  53. Moment of silence….Today is 9/11, just letting you guys know I haven’t forgotten. I’m sure you’re all memorializing today in your own way. I have a bad memory but will never forget where I was that day. Was my first semester in grad school in a new city I’d just moved to. They dismissed class early, and I remember driving home and seeing the long smoke column rising in the distance, which I only later found out was the Pentagon that had been hit. Here’s a prayer/salute to all those who have made the sacrifice and to those who are still personally struggling with that event. Beyond killing the thousands of people that they did, one goal of the terrorists was to make us feel insecure in our own land.

    I hope someday we as a country will realize that buying and filling up the streets with more guns is not the answer to feeling more secure in our homes and our streets. If anything, its the Wild West mentality of people like GZ and MO, not the terrorists or lanky skipping black teenagers, that will cause of a collective INSECURITY and rob us of our remaining sanity and freedom.

    • You make a good point there – do we want a civil society or do we want a militarized one? Arming the populace is hardly the solution for getting a civil society.

      As for remembering 9/11, I’d like to point out the op ed in the NYT this morning, that reveals that Bush had MULTIPLE warnings that Al Qaeda was determined to attack on our shores but he ignored them. His excuse for doing nothing was to blame the warnings on an alleged JOINT effort of Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein to fool him.

      The USA is a great nation – and we could have chosen to be the world’s hospital, the world’s grocer, or the world’s entertainment center. Instead we choose to be the world’s wannabe cop.

      It’s common knowledge that “Al Qaeda” means “the base” but few know that is short for “the data base,” ie, the list of those on CIA payroll during the covert Afghan war against the Soviets.

      Yes, don’t forget 9/11 and the tragic deaths, but don’t forget the lies and stupidity and bad policy that led up to it and followed it, either.

    • Thanks for this WSI. Haven’t forgotten, and I never will. 9/11/01 – I was just barely into my 2nd year of high school. Between the 1st and 2nd class of the day, the news broke that the first tower had been hit. At that point, no one knew for certain what was happening. Everyone in that school watched the events unfold on the news as the day went on. After hearing/seeing that both towers and the Pentagon were hit along with the news of the plane that crashed before reaching its intended target, it was clear this was an attack on our country. I can’t even come close to imagining how those who were closer to the attacks or lost loved ones feel. I felt and still feel disbelief, sadness, and anger. Strangely, I never felt fear. I quoted these lyrics once today, but here I go again:

      “If I die, if I fall, know I lived it to the fullest
      If I die, if I fall, know I lived and missed some bullets.”

      This is *my* life. I will live it til the day I die however I see fit; I will live, laugh, and love with 100% of myself until the last breath I take. I will do this WITHOUT fear.

      To those who lost their lives 11 years ago, may your souls rest in peace. To those who lost their lives due to injury or illness after 9/11 relating to the attacks, may your souls rest in peace. To those who put their life at risk for others (including and especially those on Flight 93 who chose to face and fight their attackers), you are our heroes. To anyone who lost a loved on and/or affected by 9/11, you are forever in the hearts of people all over the world. 9/11 and all the people will never be forgotten.

      Thanks again, WSI, for sharing – I was moved to add my remembrance of that day and all the people.

  54. MO states on Dr. Phil something about GZ would have done anything he could to prevent TM from having to perish….

    HMMM. This is the GZ that failed to defend himself by any/all reasonable means under the circumstances prior to firing his weapon. This is the GZ that did not yell for help after the shot for anyone to find him or come help TM. This is the GZ that told a witnesses to call police rather than 911. This is the GZ that told a witness he had already called 911, and told this witness not to call. This is the GZ that failed to do any CPR on a kid he claims was still alive after the shot. MO – you are full of shit. Also, MO, much of the evidence has come out, and it illustrates there are so many holes; no water can be held…the inconsistencies and lies just flood right out.

    Also, MO, you said you wouldn’t lie for George… Maybe we’ll call that a truth for now. You’ll just repeat the lies GZ told you. Do you want to tell us all how GZ has his associates? Hah.

    • @Qetno, oh yeah didn’t you love MO saying that GZ had turned his life around since the arrest/injunction earlier in his life, that he was saving money and was using that money to mentor kids? Is that a twist on him getting paid from the program to mentor the kids?

      • Who knows! I’m fairly positive we will never hear from these kids…kind of like it’s unlikely we’ll ever be hearing from the bus driver TM swung on. 😛 Hey, maybe these kids exist, but I’d definitely like to see some independent confirmation from a legitimate source.

        • Well since “they don’t got nobody” as Zimmerman’s mother testified about at the bond hearing, I’d be shocked if they exist, too. This reminds me again of the good laugh Zimmerman and his sister had about his mother’s B-movie dramatic performance that was captured on the jailhouse calls.

    • http://drphil.com/shows/show/1866/
      In the third clip with the caption “Mark and Sondra say George is a sweet and loving man….” (Ahem), Dr. Phil was listing the things GZ had been arrested for and then got dropped completely because he went to “Alcohol education program”. MO/SO corrected him by saying “Anger management”. But whoa, do you think Dr. Phil would make that kind of mistake coming out of nowhere? Also, the judge’s order that GZ stay away from alcohol, is that a common order for all accused of Murder out on bond, or was it because GZ’s past in particular? Did he potentially have an alcohol problem? It could have been something that was more of a problem around 2005 with the arrests and all, but wondering if it has resurfaced recently. His buddy Taaffe (drinking buddy, maybe?) did say he had “fed-up issues”. He might be willing eventually to talk more about GZ’s general mindset than the Ostermans.

      • I found my own answer, sort of. I had missed all the early reports that GZ pleaded down the arrest charges by going to an “alcohol education program”. I’m wondering why MO would want to say that it was an “anger management program”. Come to think of it, seems like that would be worse than alcohol issues when it comes to a murder charge, doncha think?

        http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite

        • WSI, I’ve been confused on this topic, too. I’m wondering if he went through alcohol education *and* anger management. There’s definitely been confusion as to which program he entered. Apparently, according to MO/SO, George Zimmerman went through anger management, found God, worked out all his issues, and became St. George.

          • @Qetno, he did say he used to want to be a priest and then thought he might become a chaplain after he met one that was so nice to him in jail. He seemed to have lost his connection to the catholic church years ago, and I’m not sure what other official denomination would take him. If he gets acquitted on some technicality or spends a few years in jail for manslaughter, he may yet end up starting a cult. And sadly there are adoring gun-toting fans already who thinks he’s a martyr. Can we say Waco, Texas?

        • You are maybe forgetting that Florida is the place to go to get scripts! I think the drug abuse side of this case will be made public before a jury is assembled.

          – Taafe’s mixing scripts with booze landing his arrest
          – Shellie’s mother had a script incident that landed her arrest
          – Zimmerman’s on scripts and we don’t have medical evidence for why, but heht killed someone while on them
          – A Zimmerman works in billing/records at the clinic Zimmerman went to the day after he killed Trayvon Martin; the same Zimmerman, related to George Zimmerman or not, has a previous arrest for pushing scripted drugs

          My first hunch for why Zimmerman told Manalo to call his wife was that George Zimmerman is involved in illegal drug distribution (pushing legal or illegal drugs).

          • @CSFC, I’m gonna reserve judgement on the extent of the “drug” problem if any and drug connections with family members. However, I think there is a high likelihood of a past drinking problem and a possible recent recurrence that may have prompted more aggressive/irrational behavior. There might be some clues in his full medical records and would explain why O’Mara is trying hard to suppress them. I mean, he killed someone and his whole life is now a circus. What is there to hide if the most embarrassing thing he’s been treated for is irritable bowel syndrome?

            • OK. But there is more evidence of scripts being used by them than there is of alcohol use. As a matter of fact, they all say Zimmerman doesn’t drink.

          • @CSFC, you had said “OK. But there is more evidence of scripts being used by them than there is of alcohol use. As a matter of fact, they all say Zimmerman doesn’t drink.”

            Doesn’t drink as in “he’s not an alcoholic” or doesn’t drink as in “he only drinks soda when everybody else is drinking beer.”? If it’s the latter, then he probably had to consciously make a choice to refrain from drinking because it used to be a problem. Note this is my speculation only and I don’t have proof. However, GZ’s own myspace page says he did drink at least in 2005, and his arrest charges did happen at a bar. There’s also a picture of him with a beer on his head. Now granted, to me this looks like a typical twenty-something year old’s media page, and is not evidence of him being a drunk.
            http://www.myspace.com/onlytobekingagain
            Actually, I’d like to hear more from his co-workers from his illegal party bouncing days.

            • http://www.mediabistro.com/tvspy/former-wesh-reporter-joe-oliver-on-defending-george-zimmerman-my-role-in-this-just-doesnt-make-sense_b43502

              ” [Joe] Oliver admitted that he hasn’t had in-depth conversations with Zimmerman, and that most of their discussions took place at family gatherings where “George was probably the only one who wasn’t drinking.” ”

              Why would he need to point that out specifically? If GZ had to make an effort to not even have a casual drink in family gatherings, I would think it’s because he was trying to keep clean. Anyway, who knows. However, this article made me do a double take on Joe O, the great defender of GZ’s character. He was apparently more like an “older uncle” because his wife is a close friend of Shellie’s mother? I just didn’t know their relationship before. Wonder what he’s doing now.

  55. MO says GZ was trying to maintain visual on Trayvon. Yes, that GZ was looking for Trayvon while also looking for a street sign. Well, let’s see about that.

    I have GZ running past W6’s house chasing Trayvon south. GZ tells Serino he was going in the same direction. Serino says, “That’s following!” John W6 thought there was rough housing going on in the back that he says started 5 minutes before the shot. That’s when Trayvon AND GZ run by at about 7:12:00. Remember, GZ continues running for a few seconds after the NEN dispatcher said, “We don’t need you to do that.”

    I have GZ running past W1’s house. She says, “They were running in the back.” Notice this is plural. So, GZ was here moments after passing W6’s yard. This is the only time of running other than Trayvon running to the mailbox cover when rain was pouring earlier. The scuffle later wasn’t at a run as it went 40 feet in 20 seconds.

    We hear GZ tapping on a flashlight for much of the remainder of the call. You tap because you are looking for something in the dark. Serino said given the time and space it was physically impossible for Trayvon to have gotten away. He was hiding from GZ at that point. George is probably going down the dark path checking behind those white privacy fences many of the townhomes have.

    Why the center pathway and not the streets? Because GZ told Hannity he saw Trayvon 30 seconds after saying, “He ran.” DeeDee corroborates this saying Trayvon was still breathing real hard when found. So, there isn’t time for GZ to be going into cut-throughs. This has further been verified by MO who told Dr. Phil that GZ was trying to keep a visual. And this center path is where he knew he lost visual from, so, that’s where Trayvon must be, and I think he was.

    Trayvon WAS behind one of the white fences! It was near Brandy Green’s where he could feel safe and talk out loud. DeeDee tells us he was right by his father’s house. He was also looking north because he knows GZ is approaching. Surely Trayvon sees the searching light from the flashlight GZ is tapping on. It’s acting up due to humidity and might have even gotten rain water inside. But it must have been working or GZ would have discarded it instead of tapping periodically as needed. He also had a backup.

    Trayvon sees GZ coming closer and closer so he lowers his voice on the phone. He decides not to stay there and be accosted. So he walks away. George sees this. To hear GZ tell it this was 30 seconds but we know better. GZ tells dispatch, tap tap tap “I don’t know where this kid is,” at 7:13:11. Trayvon is more likely seen at 7:13:22 when GZ: “Actually, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at.”

    Trayvon goes south to TTL. He’s damn sure not going to be chased out through the back gate to the left. So, he turns right and follows TTL north. DeeDee’s phrase is, “He started walking back again.” GZ is a distance behind him doing his surveillance thing. They are both walking. It takes a minute and a half to go from Brandy Green’s up to W11/W20’s house. By then GZ has closed the gap and is winded. Trayvon turns around at about 7:15:00 and says, “Why you following me for?” GZ will tell us this was, “You got a problem?”

    Now, I don’t know if this is right. It is supported by things that have been said. That’s how I’m working this. I collect together everything and allow it to tell me what happened. I can’t think of anything that contradicts this. Can you?

    • Hi Jay, “MO says GZ was trying to maintain visual on Trayvon.”
      MO tried to reinforce the excuse/lie that it was GZ’s interpretation of the dispatchers questions that led him to leave the truck and follow TM to “get a visual” in his police speak. GZ was/is not a cop, and he was not on a secret ops mission. If they want to exert the notion that he was just on a personal errand going to Target and not “doing neighborhood watch function”, then GZ had no business/excuse/justification for having moved his truck one inch past the clubhouse and front gate. As soon as he called NEN to report TM or moved his truck onto TTL (whichever came first), then he became neighborhood watch. Now the question that Dr. Phil didn’t ask MO was “Would GZ have been brave enough to get out of the truck if he HADN”T had a gun?” Unless GZ was invisible man, the only thing that made him feel like he could do that was the gun.

    • I don’t believe Trayvon went south. I’ve listened to Deedee over and
      over again to get the sequence right, and I think the path was more complicated.
      .
      In the first place, Deedee has Trayvon moving from the moment
      he’d left the clubhouse until the confrontation takes place. That
      means Trayvon was running and walking for about 4 min.
      He leaves the clubhouse because he is being watched and tells her
      GZ is following him in his car. The phone disconnects and she calls
      back. He tells her GZ is still following him and that GZ is really
      creepy.

      Trayvon started running, he tells her he lost the guy. He is breathing
      hard and she can hear he is scared. She said she could hear he
      was scared because his voice changed. When she said lower, I think she meant deeper, not lower in volume. She tells him to run to his dad’s house, but he tells her no he is going around the back because that is easier.

      In GZ first interview he said he pulled over along the side of the street and called the nen. At some time during his call he had lost a visual of Trayvon, because Trayvon went between the houses. Singleton then asks him ” he went between two house?” And Zimmerman says “yes ma’am. Then he has Trayvon reappearing out of the darkness and circle his car and disappear again, before he gets out of his car. In this first story, he doesn’t say he pulled over at the clubhouse.

      The following day at the reenactment, when he stops at the clubhouse to make his call, he gets very vague about how Trayvon moved to TTL, and he uses his “I lost visual contact, and the dispatcher wanted me to tell me where he is” line, to have him self move to TTL, and the line about Trayvon going between two houses has disappeared.

      I think Trayvon ran between two houses on TTL, going north crossing RVC and continued running between a gap between the houses, on the other side of RVC in the direction of Oregan ave.

      I think that is where he told Deedee that he thought he lost the guy, and Deedee tells him to go to his dad’s house and Trayvon replies ” I am going around the back, that is easier”.

      I think he walked, ran behind those houses going east and maybe south. He stopped running and started walking again, according to Deedee, because he was out of breath and he thought he had lost GZ.

      Deedee tells him to keep running, and that is when he tells her he is near his father’s house. I can see him saying that at this point. He was scared he ran, he lost the guy. All he has to do is cross RVC, go through the cut-through and walk down the dogpath.

      GZ could’ve followed him between the houses, or ran through the cut-through east, thinking he would cut off Trayvon on his way to the back entrance. He may still have been on RVC, when Trayvon crossed it. He even may have been back near his truck when he ended the call, and was driving on RVC when he saw Trayvon again. A car is driving west on TTL at what I estimate 7:15 pm, so that is possible.

      Why do I think this is what happened?
      It would explain the missing minutes.
      It fits Deedee’s timeline including the “I am going around the back”.
      I think if Trayvon went straight, GZ would’ve stopped closer to the cut-through.
      When Trayvon sees GZ again, he says “he is following me again”, which indicates to me they were both moving.
      Trayvon was seriously spooked. When a 17 year old starts running while talking to a girl on the phone, he is scared. I don’t believe for a second he just ran around the corner, to stop behind one of the screens to continue his conversation. His father and Brandy weren’t home, he could’ve gone to the garage if he wanted privacy.
      There is no evidence a chase took place south of where Trayvon was shot. The woman who said she saw something out of the corner of her eye, may have seen Austin or his dog.

      I think he didn’t want the creepy guy to know where he lived and that may have been the reason he didn’t run home in the first place.

  56. Many things are possible. What GZ says happened is not possible. What can be proven in a court of law is what I am concerned about, as much as I personally would love to “know” what happened in the missing minutes and last seconds of this doomed teenager’s life.

    In a court of law if can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ pushed a false narrative to police that includes multiple lies, contradictions, omissions and obfuscations surrounding the move from clubhouse area to cut thru area.

    The rest is circumstantial, unless the state can introduce a credible witness to a foot chase – they have Dee Dee, Sean the dispatcher and possibly W2 at least to strongly suggest a foot chase – do they have more? They also have the slight injuries to contrast to the tale of a savage attack.

    I think they have enough for a conviction, personally but it hinges on GZ’s complete lack of credibility being established regarding his movements during the NEN call, which can be contrasted with his lies to investigators, etc. This portion of the prosecution’s case uses almost only George’s own words to impeach his credibility. It’s impossible to defend against, IMO since the defense can only introduce “reasonable doubt” by impeaching the credibility of the defendant. Dee Dee CORROBORATES the idea that TM waited by the mail kiosk, and chased TM with his car, but even without her george alone, and a map and a stopwatch prove he never could have began his call by the clubhouse parking lot on RVC, and that he also could not have been describing TM passing his car when he was in the final “by the cut thru” position due to the “long tail” of time before GZ says TM is running. The teen would be out of sight by then if GZ were parked that far down TTL.

    The location of the body contrasted with GZ’s many repeated spoken and written statements about falloing to the grass after the initial blow is as close to proof of a false narrative as the prosecution might get in the altercation, but I see the lies as a major event coming so close to the fatal shot. No one “stumbled” 45 feet south of the T in the manner George suggests. He’s making it up on the spot and doing a poor job of it in my book.

    The lack of description of ANY defensive moves on GZ’s part during the physical altercation is a tell-tale behavior that fits his pattern of proven lies: when in doubt George leaves it out. The prosecution need only float the suggestion that George LIKELY tried to detain the youth, and even if the defense objects the suggestion is still left lingering. What DID this liar do during the fight besides shoot his gun? No one is going to believe he kept his hands in his pockets the whole time, but according to George he may as well have, since he only ONCE speaks of defending himself, and that’s during his silly “dog paddle-patty cake” mime during the walk thru “re-enactment.”

    Everyone is allowed their theory of what happened in the dark after George got off the phone, and I’ve got mine, too. But I think the prosecution should present their case in manner that allows each jury member to decide for themselves – without having to argue amongst one another – what exactly happened in the missing minutes and final seconds, but to all agree on these points:

    George lied to investigators all the way up to “he ran” and that the prosecution proved this beyond a reasonable doubt, and therefor the defendant has zero credibility.

    George got out of his vehicle in hot pursuit (with a depraved mind) to chase an unarmed teen without identifying himself and therefor any suspicious action on his part – such as reaching for a cellphone/handgun could be interpreted as a hostile act by the teen, who had a right to STAND HIS GROUND.

    George’s injuries don’t seem to match his description of events – not the fear for his life part, which is indeed subjective – but the EVENTS – the multiple blows to the face and the smothering which can’t be heard interrupting the calls for help.

    George may or may not be the one calling for help. The FBI is right in saying the tests will be inconclusive.

    The mother of the teen thinks it is her son calling for help.

    George did nothing to help revive the teen, or make sure an ambulance was coming, yet claims the teen survived, and spoke after the shot – depraved mind.

    There are other points, and good ones, but with these alone a jury ought to vote to convict on M2 IMO.

    If S. Jay, Amsterdam and myself were all on the jury we’d all disagree about what happened in the missing minutes. But that shouldn’t stop us from agreeing 100% that the prosecution proved beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ is lying, pursued the teen, caught up to the teen, shot the teen and acted with a depraved mind and was not acting in self defense. We would also LIKELY agree that GZ tried to detain the teen, was lying about his injuries, had a “tipoff man,” was never in the clubhouse parking lot, stopped at the T, never stumbled 40 feet south and therefore was not returning to his vehicle when the two first made physical contact, etc, etc. and that even if the prosecution couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these supporting things are true that the defendant is guilty of M2 anyway, given the totality of evidence against him. We could heartily disagree on matters like who was yelling for help, whether or not Dee Dee makes any sense or not, and what the residents saw or heard in the dark, and it wouldn’t change our verdict – it would only make deliberations drag on for a while, until a consensus was reached:

    GZ is a liar who chased a kid and shot him not while legally acting in self defense. Guilty as charged.

    • I think that if the prosecution can proof Trayvon was at the mailarea around 6:54, they can show with the clubhouse videos that he could have never spotted Trayvon where he said he did. They may be able with his phonerecords, that he was tipped off. If they can show that, he left his house with a gun looking for Trayvon.

      I agree we probably will never know for sure, what happened in those minutes before he was killed, unless they have witnesses we don’t know about yet.

      • Call time records are not proof beyond a reasonable doubt of a tipoff man. What was said by the callers? We wont know. But they are yet another detail that might show GZ wasnt telling the whole truth to investigators. SPD investigators had George’s phone and I thought they copied all his info from it. When is this info finally going to go public? (and aren’t we due the latest discovery after the 30 day review? ) And as far as using clubhouse videos in court, although I find them fascinating and potentially compelling, I think the car to pedestrian chase can be proved without them. And as far as “proving” TM was at the mail kiosk, what they seem to have is Dee Dee, whom I find credible but is her word sufficient beyond a reasonable doubt or not? Hard to say for certain.

    • “But I think the prosecution should present their case in manner that allows each jury member to decide for themselves – without having to argue amongst one another – what exactly happened in the missing minutes and final seconds….”

      This is a very good point, presenting the facts to the jury is an art form I suppose. Enough for them to digest, but not too much to overwhelm them and cause a hung jury, or worse an acquittal.

    • @WillisNewton –

      You and Professor Leatherman have arrived as similar conclusions. http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/zimmerman-dee-dees-testimony-regarding-trayvon-martins-fear-of-zimmerman-is-admissible

      The difference I see is that DeeDee (unlike other witnesses) can speak to Trayvon Martin’s fear as he tried to avoid a confrontation. Give that part some thought.

      Professor Leatherman also cites a case relating to a two-part altercation whereby the killer hunted down his victim.

      • Thanks for the link to the professor – he and I agree on a lot of things. But don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying Dee Dee’s statements won’t be allowed. I’m just not a lawyer – the prof is, and a criminal defense one at that – so I’d defer to what he says. I’m actually questioning the idea of whether or not a jury would be swayed by her or not. I find her 100% credible, myself but can’t predict how others might see her. And I don’t know yet if they will get to hear her or not.

        For me the sticky issue is just that I’d like to show how the prosecution can prove through George’s statements and recorded call ALONE that he chased Trayvon down TTL with his car. And I think the prosecution can get 95% of the way there if not all the way there with ONLY George’s words, a map and come common sense. It’s just awfully darn convenient that Dee Dee corroborates this exactly.

        George himself told the dispatcher that TM was “near the clubhouse/yeah” and established a timeline for himself with his call, wherein he describes many movements of the teen as he comes and goes, seemingly towards and away from the defendant. But after the fact GZ has told contradictory, inconsistent (and most importantly inconsistent with the recorded call) things about where he was when he placed the call and how he moved from clubhouse to curt thru. The timing shows he couldn’t have really been at either end of his supposed path when Trayvon passed him. He’s clearly somewhere in the middle, and he marked a map at the first corner of TTL before quickly amending his statement in a suspicious manner. Working only on the key that a jury buys that TM was anywhere near the clubhouse at all – mail kiosk, front door, lounging in the hot tub, i don’t care – just closer to the clubhouse than he was to any other man made structure then George himself has proven he chased the kid down TTL, IMO.

        I’m going to keep saying this – many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.

        Leave out Dee Dee, leave out the clubhouse videos, and we are still left with one scenario that fits all the timing, removes inconsistencies and resolves contradictions – that GZ is lying and parked near where he first marked the map – or that somehow his ADHD and PTSD etc allows him to suspend the laws of space and time, because the fact remains that George was SOMEWHERE when he was asked by dispatch “Is he near the clubhouse now?” and answered in the affirmative.

        Many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.

        • “Many things are possible. What GZ claims is not.”

          Indeed. That proves he lied. DeeDee proves George provoked Trayvon’s defensive actions… even his running.

          I think it’s the difference between a 95% chance at a guilty verdict and a 100% chance of a guilty verdict. Admittedly, these percentages are pulled from my.. opinionator parts. 🙂

  57. I would like some help.
    I have made a timer for the clubhouse videos. Timestamps were included with the videos, beginning at 6:30 pm. According to the second evidence dump the videoclock was 18 minutes slow. So I start the clock at 6:48 pm.
    I want to put the videos, the clock and the audio from the nen call together.

    I think the nen call, actually starts later then 7:09:34 pm. I think I can hear Sean hitting the enter button at 1 min 14 sec into the call. That would be the creation time 7:11:12. That would mean the call began at 7:09:58.
    Does anyone disagree with my analysis?

    I think it is not very likely the clock was exactly 18 min slow. What I would like to do, is to assemble one or two videos first, and have some people look at it, to see if we need to make some adjustments before putting the other videos together.

    Does anyone have other suggestions?

    • I’d be happy to help in the review process. Here’s something I found on Professor Leatherman’s blog (http://frederickleatherman.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/zimmerman-dee-dees-testimony-regarding-trayvon-martins-fear-of-zimmerman-is-admissible). You might find this interesting as it seems very close to what you said you’re trying to put together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBOFzJnGkg&feature=player_embedded

      It’s another great vid (IMO) from LLMPapa.

    • I think the call Zimmerman placed started in the 7:09:34 range. I have never fully understood why anyone should accept the 7:11+ timestamp as the call time when all it shows is the log creation time which indicated some conversation between a caller and dispatch took place and the record was created after-the-fact. If the connect time shows 7:09:xx, then that’s where evidence analysis should begin because Zimmerman’s recorded action to contact NEN began at that time.

      In other words, whether Zimmerman had 4 mins or 6 mins to hunt is a different matter than Zimmerman laid the ground work for justifying his hunt almost 2 mins prior to dispatch’s ability to create a log.

      • I agree that the connect time is 7:09:34. The creation time is the time that Sean entered the first entry for this call at 7:11:12. At that time, Sean had all the info contained in that entry. I heard Sean hit the enter key at 1 min 14 sec. I subtracted the 1 min 14 sec from the creation time 7:11:12. That gives me the 7:09:58. So I think that GZ called at 7:09:34, but the audio begins at 7:09:58. At 1:14 in the nen call, GZ had communicated the last info contained in the creation entry of the call, that would be late teens.
        I would appreciate if people could listen to the nen call again, and let me know when they think Sean hit the enter key for the first time.

        • OK. Just got a chance to relisten. One key seems to have been pressed 1:14 into the recording. You may be on to something.

      • To be clear, I want to add the audio track of the nen call to the clubhouse videos. So I am trying to synchronize the nen call as much as possible with the video.

        • Be sure to use the unredacted one. Others lose or add time at the redaction edit points.

          Jerilyn at Talk Left has a transcript of the NEN call with some of the sounds indicated here:

          Click to access alternatetranscript.pdf

          Maybe we could do even better if you can hear ‘Enter’ keys. Those and the clubhouse vids are still mysterious to me.

        • What will you use as a sync point for the picture portion of your picture-plus-audio? It seems like you have a 0:59 second margin of error if all we know about the clubhouse vidoe is that it’s 18 minutes off, and nothing about the second hand on the clock.

          I don’t know what’s visible on the east pool video and you would be making an assumption to do so but IMO the background noise following “these axxholes always get away” is a car shifting gears as though to execute a two point u turn.

          But I’m afraid that movement is all taking place within the camera flare / blown out area at top left. And I’m unsure if GZs headlights are on or not. I tend to theorize that GZ made two u turns- he crept past the mail kiosk and made the corner at TTL and then turned back to face the mail kiosk, possibly creeping up to the corner with lights off. Then when TM walked past (possibly in the grass) he made another u turn to follow him down TTL, causing TM to run when he reached the second corner. GZ stopped his car where his headlights could shine down the cut thru.

          I have no opinion on what’s visible or not in the clubhouse recordings. I’m basing this on what GZ says on the NEN recording and the timing of walking speeds and the maps, including the one GZ marked himself.

          But what you are trying to seems interesting enough to experiment with.

          • Both shining one’s lights on a person standing in a mailshed or shining one’s lights on a person running down a sidewalk leading to a cut-through to escape after the intimidated person expressed a desire to flee the situation are intimidation tactics.

  58. I have uploaded info on Witness 5 – the individual transcripts and the composite. I also inserted her composite into the case spreadsheet.

    I also posted info for Witness 6 – all the individual transcripts and the composite. I just got his composite done. It is in order and all there but still in a rough state. I’m going to refine it a bit before stuffing it into the spreadsheet.

    Going on to work on Witness 11 now.

    • Thanks for the update, SJ. You’re doing us a fantastic service! Again, thank you x a million!!

      • You’re so welcome. I just added a few files for witnesses 11, 14, 15, 16, 18, and 20.

        How to get to them? Go to the new article on BCClist called:

        Links to Sites Created by BccList.com Commenters Regarding the Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Shooting

        NLME: I think Lonnie Starr also has a site.

    • Can’t wait to read up on this. What you’ve done is so dedicated and I think it’s great! Thanks, again.

  59. I saw a young black male in my neighborhood today. I did not recognize him. He was walking about and looking at all the houses. I found his pace to be rather leisurely.

    I waved and smiled, so did he. I kept walking my dog, and he kept walking himself (lol)…

    No one died. No crime was committed by this man.

    It’s sure amazing what can happen when one acts civil and rational.

  60. According to this miami newspaper article, the next round of discovery from the prosecution to the defense is going to be released next Wednesday, which will be 19 SEP 12.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmerman-new-evidence-20120913,0,877076.story

    The article lists SOME of what will be included but doesn’t give a source for the information other than to say this is according to the prosecutors. I wonder if a complete list is out there somewhere. I wonder if this IS the complete list or not…

    “The records are among those given to Zimmerman’s defense last month, including 217 photos from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, eight photos taken by a private investigator hired by Trayvon’s family, Zimmerman’s school records from Manassas, Va., eight incident reports and the cell phone records of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who Zimmerman shot Feb. 26 in Sanford”

    What I am hoping to see eventually is GZ’s phone records, and other things that were supposedly already released, such as the notes/ summary of the de-briefing of SPD officer Singleton by FDLE and or FBI, as well as the actual interview tapes themselves if they exist including the matching interview of Serino, for which we’ve seem a summary.

    I’d also love to hear the tape, if it exists, of the interview with Mark Osterman. According to his book his interviewers told him he was NOT being recorded. Not sure I believe that. The summary also loosely claims that MO said he spoke to LE and to GZ at the scene that night but “not in depth.” MO claims in his book he did not speak to GZ until after the initial questioning and GZ was released from custody. I see a conflict of information there… It would be great if that was cleared up eventually – under oath.and with the actual interview recording.

    What else are we missing? There have been indexes published… can’t pull them up from my messy notes just now.

    The prosecution has been cagey about releasing discovery materials from the get-go, and only seems to do so carefully. Several important things have been released in sub-standard facsimile copies, such as the map GZ marked, the police officer’s cell phone picture of the face of GZ sitting in the police car, and the interview audio of Dee Dee with Crump/ABC news. What’s next?

    • “The summary also loosely claims that MO said he spoke to LE and to GZ at the scene that night but “not in depth.” ”

      Actually I think the wording was more like, MO did not talk to GZ or the officers in depth. In breaking up that sentence, the “in depth” could be referring to just the officers. That is, it could be interpreted as MO did not talk to GZ and MO did not talk to the officers in depth. I am so not defending MO, just saying what the report could mean and it might not necessarily be inconsistent with what he claimed in the book of not talking to GZ until after the police interviews. In any case, the other officers at the scene should be questioned to corroborate that.

      • I agree that officers on the scene should have been questioned at length by SAO investigators. But from what we’ve seen so far they were not.

        And I also agree there is wiggle room in the FDLE summary for osterman to have claimed not to speak to GZ on the scene. But why wouldn’t he if he could? And wasnt this question worth asking more in depth?

        I think in some regard the SAO didn’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth and they did not scrutinize the deep inner workings of the SPD for that reason.

      • Thanks, thats what i was looking for. In that case the Miami newspaper reporter didn’t mention one big item – the entire FDLE report, with analysis (probably a summary.).

        That report itself could contain almost anything, I’d say.

  61. In the Dr. Phil teasers for his interviews of Tracy Martin and Sabrina Fulton, Tracy Martin breaks down. I have often wondered if he felt guilt (just as DeeDee said she did). This child once saved Tracy Martin’s life and his feelings of anger over not being there to “take the bullet” instead of his son are certainly understandable.

    I hope both Trayvon Martin’s parents get extensive counseling to thwart any feelings of guilt they may feel now or eventually. It wasn’t there fault that Zimmerman gunned him down.

    I am still pissed at the teacher that gave Trayvon Martin a 10-day suspension for something that could have been handled in a different way. I’m not saying it was the teacher’s fault 100%, but I hate how some of the new breed of teachers don’t give a chit about kids and act like pretend cops (like Zimmerman).

    • @CSFC, a school suspension would have been doled out by the principal, not any one teacher, and I think he/she would also have to follow school policy regardless. No, the blame can’t go there either. But I agree there’s a lot of guilt around the case, from Tracy to Austin and DeeDee. The only expression of guilt we haven’t heard about is GZ’s. I really think he would have been better off if he had just owned up to his mistakes early on and just admit he was wrong in profiling and pursuing TM. If he had done that and not lied, maybe the judge or jury would believe he was fearful, stupidly wrong, but in his mind fearful for his life (still not sure he would get off on that but at least the sentence would be more lenient, I would think). But all of the lying and half-a$$ed apologies (I’m sorry you lost your son, not I’m sorry I killed your son) is gonna hang him.

      • You’re right. Instead of “teacher” I should have said school official. We don’t know whether it was a teacher, an administrator or a security guard yet.

      • Every time GZ opens his mouth, ask yourself (as he clearly isn’t) how I this going to sound when it gets read back at the sentencing stage?

        And even when he “didn’t open his mouth” like at the bond hearing wher he was sitting on all that hidden money and a valid passport? I’m glad it won’t be judge Lester handing down sentencing because the new judge won’t feel any conflict of interest over speculating about flight risk. The new judge will see if for what it was- a deliberate opportunity to have an illegal exit strategy.

  62. Witness 11 confirms what DeeDee says about the argument. The words GZ spoke are almost identical in both testimonies. And Witness 11 said them on March 2, DeeDee on March 19.

    Singleton: So, when we talk about this exchange between them, you don’t know if George was speaking at the start of the conversation?

    Witness 11: At first we didn’t even know how many men it was. It could have been four guys. It sounded like, you know… he’ll probably tell you the same thing… It sounded like a couple of drunk guys or a group of drunk guys. That’s why he was going to maybe go out and see what was going on. But we didn’t know how many people were out there. So, it just sounded like, Hey, Hey. Not “hey” even, but

    Serino: I got you.

    Witness 11: it was just yelling. Like, “What are you doing… What are you…” kinda like that.

    Listen for yourself at the 6:43 mark of the Serino interview with Witness 11 at Axiom Amnesia. Very confrontational, challenging. Uncanny how similar this is to DeeDee’s “What you doing around here?” What this shows me is that the argument started very close to W11/W20’s house because they noticed it and could make it out even with their TV on. It means that the end of DeeDee’s account is the beginning of everyone else’s. It means that DeeDee’s wording is right and GZ’s is wrong. In other words, GZ paraphrased it to make Trayvon look agressive. “What’s your problem?”

    Trayvon probably didn’t say that. What’s remarkable is that Trayvon probably did think GZ had problems. The crazy, creepy look that Trayvon was doing something wrong (being there) and the following in the car made Trayvon think GZ had problems. That’s what DeeDee says he told her.

    The whole character of the argument seems the same for W11 and W8. Not just the words yelled by TM and GZ..

    • On the money, SJ. She blindly backs George for the most part, but this statement from her is untainted (unlike her belief that poor GZ was attacked and screaming, which was fed to her) and it fully corroborates DeeDee’s version. It seems the teacher, while not hearing the exact words, also corroborates that it was a loud, two person argument, which is not consistent with GZ’s version. I want to know more from Manalo’s wife… Didn’t she look out the window and tell her husband two men were fighting, but he told her to let the men handle it? I’d also like to know more from W1 (I think…might have been W2) who looked out the window and saw “fists.” I’d like to know if she ever described exactly what she saw (punching, grabbing, swatting?).

      • Oh, yeah. There is long sequence between this loud, dominant voice argument and the gunshot. It went through stages of cries, whines, yells, screams, helps, and a few other words. We have to keep in mind that over this minute plus the witnesses were observing and hearing at different times. There was quite a bit before we hear for ourselves at 7:16:11. Hear how well that picked up on W11/W20’s phone? They must have been looking out the back. They are describing things you can’t know from hearing, such as coming around the corner, rolling on the sidewalk, moving from left to right. But if you saw them and you didn’t want it to be known for liability reasons, you could say you only heard them. I really want to hear a completely unredacted recording of that call.

        But different witnesses describe the same sounds in different words. They were also concentrating on and remembering sounds at different times. I believe these can be put in order and even put into a timeline. One thing I keep noticing is that several witnesses say, “help, help, help.” Only witness 3 speaks of the long, sustained “help” like I hear. So, I’m wondering if earlier there were shorter “helps” in multiples like two or three. Isn’t that what GZ did in his weak attempt at recreating the “helps”? Maybe they were weaker and said in multiples earlier.

        • I still find W6, W11, and W20 very suspect. W11 stated she called her neighbor (John – W6). I want to know when and why she called him. Did she call before, during, or after the shot? I think those three have a lot more they are not telling. While I find Manalo incredibly weird, I don’t think he is suspect of anything…except for maybe apathy with his “let the men handle it” and “what gun did you use” comments.

          Regarding the helps, it would be very interesting if before the first 911 call there were shorter helps. This would be good to know. I figured the witnesses were just trying to emphasize the fact that there were a number of repeated helps called out. They definitely weren’t in quick succession, though. You’d think GZ coulda/woulda done a better job at trying to mimmic the calls for help considering he did get to listen to the 911 tape before the recreation of the screams/yells.

          • @Jay and QETNO, yes the unredacted 911 call of the yells would be helpful. I had posted a question earlier if anyone could hear two shorter helps after the loud scream but got no response. Right after the really loud blood-curdling yell, I heard two more “helps”, a longer help and a short help. Now I was only able to hear these last two helps with the volume way up high with pretty good speakers on my laptop. The very last short help a millisecond before the gunshot was almost inaudible but to me sounds like GZ’s help in the voice exemplar he gave to the police. However, it’s clear to me the loud scream did not come from GZ.

            I was just thinking, TM was probably surprised by GZ probably grabbing at him (get off get off!) and went into the scuffle just trying to fend off the weird crazy man. TM probably thought that GZ was a skinhead trying to yell help to his buddies to come help him jump this poor black kid (Shut the eff up!). TM’s yells and screams would have been full of emotion and fear, which we hear in that loud scream, I’m guessing that’s the moment GZ pulled and had control of the gun. GZ’s deliberate wimpy “helps” were no more than him trying to get neighbors and police to help detain the “suspect”.

            • WSI – I’ll definitely give the call a listen again when I’m able to get a better set of headphones. I’ve listened to that call way too many times. I know I thought I heard something one of the times I listened, but I don’t have a good enough set of headphones/speakers at the moment. It’s hard to single out sounds because there’s the gunshot, multiple voices, and an echo all at the same time. I wonder if any of the witnesses recall hearing any additional helps after the shot.

    • Since they were watching tv, I wonder if W11 and W20 are the Nevins link. Don’t know if they have a small child, though.

        • Hi 2dogsonly, how do you know that the Nevin lady is related to W11? Is that based on your gut feeling because of the mention of the TV or is there other information? Just wondering because she said he went to look and saw the body. Since in his testimony W20 said he didn’t see anything and also did not talk about seeing the body, even after the gunshot and everybody else was out there already. Many of us here had been questioning whether he was holding something back. Is this evidence then that W20 is hiding what he really saw? (as suggested by what we heard on the 911 call “Jeremy get down” “get in here!”)

  63. Looking forward to the new evidence dump, oh Lordy do we need it.

    On a seperate note, for those of you so inclined, pls say a prayer for my nephew. As soon as i saw Trayvons photo my heart sank because it was like looking at a photo of my nephew a few years ago. He had a serious work accident 2 days ago and is lucky to be alive, but he is not out of the woods yet. It’s fucking heart breaking, at best he is in for a long rehabilitation. He has always been the love of my life and i use to worry i wouldn’t love my own kids as much lol. Anyway, i don’t know if it helps but its worth a try, the more people praying for him the better.

    .

    • @jo – I’m so sorry to hear about your nephew. I hope he pulls through and recovers. Please do keep us updated, and I will absolutely keep him in my thoughts/prayers. Sending positive vibes your way!

    • @Jo, your nephew is in my prayers. I’ll also dare to speak on behalf of any silent readers of the blog who want to send prayers, thoughts and well wishes your way via this post. Here’s to a speedy recovery for him!

    • thank you so much QETNO, CSFC and WSI…..approx 8 hours of surgery today and now we just wait. Your thoughts are so much appreciated xx

      • I hope all went well with his surgery, and I hope you and the fam are hanging in there alright. Keep your head up, Jo.

        • thanks guys, apparently he is doing well, next 48 hours and the following week crucial. Lucky he was a fit bugger and strong as an ox. The surgeons are happy with their work. They are still in shock that his bones weren’t crushed to mush instead there are 8 clean breaks and a few dislocations. His foot was severed from the heel but it is the skin and muscle grafting from where his foot and heel were stripped that will determine if he keeps his foot. He just got into boxing and weightlifting and that’s all he talks about, he has not even acknowledged the worst. He is super drowsy but so friggen strong he knows everything they are doing and bossing everyone around in between knodding off and swearing like a trooper. But they say he is very polite for a 21 year old (turned 21 on friday) especially considering his pain. They have already brought him up some elastic straps so he can work his upper body. So you probably don’t need to hear all the details but i love this kid to death and appreciate all your concerns xxxx

          • It sounds like he’s an incredibly strong-minded/strong-willed young man. 🙂 Thanks for the update, and I hope he continues to do well.

  64. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/14/1131936/-The-Labors-of-Social-Ostracization

    This blog says “In his book, Mark Osterman wrote that Shellie was at her father’s house at the time of the shooting. She immediately called him while he was out walking his dog in his own neighborhood.”

    I hadn’t read that in any of the excerpts at the nuthouse, so wondering how he got a copy already. Maybe from one of the audience members of the Dr. Phil show? Anyway, just wondering how far her father’s house is and if that would have added extra time for them to meet up and come to the scene together.

    • Oh actually, I noticed the publisher is now offering MO’s book as an E-book that can be downloaded immediately. I guess we’ll be hearing about more details sooner than the 1-2 months that it’s going to take Amazon to deliver a paperback (6 copies sold there to date!) The prosecutor should really enter it into evidence!

    • Hmmmmm, didn’t i read somewhere that GZ said his wife was with his friend…or maybe he was talking about after the fact.

      • @Jo, I think GZ was referring to the fact that at some point Shellie was with Osterman. GZ didn’t say when or where they came from.

        • yeah i always thought it meant they were together before the call but realised i could have it wrong and it was actually after the fact that he was talking about. Of course he could just tell us the fucking truth and we wouldn’t have to second guess everything he says but i don’t think that will happen any time soon. big big sigh.

    • There was a blurb on NPR yesterday that said recently, when the subject of SYG has come up in Florida, in the government, it has not been changed. And yes, the killer really does get to go home right away.

      http://www.npr.org/2012/09/13/161074916/stand-your-ground-law-likely-to-remain

      Maybe the Trayvon Martin case will make a change. This will depend on how the trial goes and how it is covered. I think GZ will take it all the way to trial because he really believes he is innocent.

      • That NPR article says: [Braswell said family members of the person killed in a Stand Your Ground confrontation also suffer and deserve justice. Defense attorney Mark Seiden, one of several supporters of the law on the task force, took issue with that. “If we have to look at two possible outcomes — one being a citizen, an honest citizen who is wounded, hurt, maimed or raped, and a dead thug, I’ll take the dead thug anytime,” Seiden said. ]

        Most people would agree with that statement, but who can we trust to make the determination that the deceased was a thug????? TM was already determined to be a thug on scene by the guy left standing with the gun and the officers, who even influenced the witnesses “that’s OK, the guy yelling for help is OK”.

        • Zimmerman’s lawyer of course admits this is not a “stand your ground” case.

          (Former) Police Chief Bill Lee claimed it was a “Stand your ground” type-incident.

          I’m hoping the case can cause these barbaric laws to be scrutinized more. What’s the statistic? A six-fold increase in justifiable homicides in Florida alone?

          • The argument with SYG is that the justified killer does not have to go through the expense and “stress” of a trial. Well fine, the state can provide the defense or reimburse them if they’re determined to be justified at trial, or at least at a hearing before a judge. Ironically, GZ would probably not have gotten so much national attention and be better of if he were arrested that night. It wouldn’t have added anymore stress to the guy. He’d been arrested before. Oh right, they didn’t even bother to pull his prior arrest record that night, is that true? TM’s family have always said they were only looking to have GZ go through the court system and they’d accept whatever the outcome of that, not to have it swept under the rug by the good ol’ boys club saying their hands were tied by this backwards law.

  66. How could Trayvon still be winded from the run when GZ finds him? Well, maybe it wasn’t quite like that. There is an explanation. I’m going to re-interpret how it might have happened using some of DeeDee’s words. I’ll throw in some of my time guesses for your amusement. If you’ve already read the transcripts you can skip to the explanation at the bottom.

    7:11:30
    DeeDee: He said this man is still watching him. And right before he say he’s going to run… He’s saying the guy looks crazy…and creepy…because he said this dude is like watching him…Like in a car…so he about to run from the back. So then I told him, Run to his Dad house. So he say he about to run for the back cause its mo’ easier, he said. he was going to run from the back because this man was watching him. ’cause somebody was following him very close with the car. He knew that the man was on the phone to somebody so he was about to make a run for it from the back. Trayvon sounded scared. Real pannicky.

    7:11:41
    DeeDee: So, next thing I hear, he gettin’ run. And I can hear that the wind blowin’… So I could tell he was running at that time… and then he said…I think the man got off (out?) by some reason…cause he said the man was still following him. he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad house.

    7:12:11
    DeeDee: Trayvon had run for it. And then… he said he lost the man. So, Trayvon at that time…I could tell he was like, out of breath, like excited… He say he lost him… OK…he was breathing hard.

    7:12:30
    DeeDee: So, and in a couple minutes…he say the man followin’ him again, behin’ him. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda change… Trayvon! I know he was scare. I… could tell he was scared. Voice was getting kind of low…breathin’ har’… So, I could tell he was emotional like somebody who was like in fear. And then the man come… and then Trayvon say the man was still following him.

    7:13:15
    DeeDee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like.. He getting close by him. I say, “Run.” And Trayvon say he not going to run. And I say, ‘RUN!’ You goin’ to run? He say he not goin’ run cause…I could have known he not going to run, cause he out of breath. And Trayvon said he ain’t gonna run like that. He was gonna walk fast from the back. and then, he told me, he say this guy getting’ close to him. I told him ‘RUN!’ And then, and then… I tol’ him ‘Keep runnin’.’ He not goin’ run. And then he say…I told him, ‘Why you not runnin’? He say, ‘I’m not go’ run,’ cause he tired, but I know he tired. He was breathin’ hard. Real hard. It was not raining at that time cause I hear him OK.

    7:13:22
    DeeDee: He started walking back again…and I told him ‘Keep runnin’. He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house… And the man was just following him close like walking to him like fast. Like when Trayvon was walking fast, he was walking faster following him. And when I’m telling him “Run, Run, Run”, I was being emphatic like… Shouting…shouting at him. and he told me the guy was getting real close to him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…

    7:15:00 Argument by witness 11’s house
    —————-
    Now for the explanation. My hypothesis is that Trayvon ran straight back to Brandy’s. Those who think he did something tricky and convoluted would need much more time for Trayvon’s run. It would then take minutes for GZ to locate TM if he was really lost and hiding. We can agree that GZ lost sight of the kid. I think that was around 7:11:50 when George got out of his truck. He doesn’t see Trayvon again until TM walked away from his hiding spot at 7:13:22.

    Trayvon has run and by 7:12:11 is resting at Brandy Green’s. He is looking back north and does not see GZ at first. For about 20 seconds he thinks he lost him. The catch is that Trayvon, after running, while still catching his breath at about 7:12:30 notices GZ’s flashlight searching along the path he just ran. He’s talking to DeeDee telling her GZ is coming closer and closer. So, TM saw GZ coming about 50 seconds before GZ knew where he was. Finally, when GZ is quite close, Trayvon walks away at about 7:13:22. GZ sees TM and begins following him again.

    • Many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims is not possible. Why speculate beyond the given?

      I can think of quite a few specific questions to ask Dee Dee and the resident witnesses that might help clear up some points, but few of them have much hope of ever making George’s story seem plausible.

      George can be proven to have lied to investigators and to have chased TM with his car down TTL. George told the dispatcher he was following the teen (obviously on foot.) Trayvon was afraid and ran away – George confirms the last part himself, but clearly tried to hide it, never speaking of it during questioning unless prompted. (Absent the NEN recording, SPD would never have learned Trayvon ran away.)

      George told the dispatcher to change the rendezvous point, seemingly abandoning the idea that he would be by his truck when they arrived. George claims he was attacked and struck first, but claimed many times he was struck and fell backwards into the grass, or fell immediately after being struck. His “stumble” re-enactmant is less than 60% of the actual distance he would have had to travel were he actually struck where he claims, from a spot on a path that is walking “towards” his truck. He leaves out almost any and all defensive acts whatsoever that he did with his hands except shooting the teen, yet claims they were in a physical fight. The location of the body is on a path towards safety for the teen, and not towards the truck’s alleged location.

      His story simply is not credible, and it’s certain he pushed a false narrative to police all the way up until “he ran,” which George falsely claims happened when he was at RVC, which is not physically possible given all George claims before, mostly that he did not run to get there.

      What’s the point in speculating about how they arrived in John’s back yard? One guess is as good as the next. Absent a secret witness, or a confession we just aren’t going to know, and putting all your eggs into one scenario simply increases the chances that you are wrong.

      Here’s what I know happened: George profiled the teen, chased the teen with his vehicle and on foot, found the teen after changing the rendezvous point away from his truck, admits he failed to identify himself to the teen, claims he made a threatening gesture – reaching for his gun-phone, and then he shot the teen after sustaining seemingly minor injuries in a struggle where the teen essentially stood his ground against a threatening individual who was not acting reasonably. Later, he pushed a false narrative to investigators, and additionally hid money and his passport from the court.

      • willis: appreciate your constant feedback and reminders to stay on solid ground. I don’t believe any one speculation is right because of the reasons you mention. But I don’t think they are a waste of time. It is a process of sifting and sorting the indicators. Many who were directly involved on Feb. 26 have given us scraps of information. Scenarios that are closer to the truth will include most of the things they have indicated.

        GZ bothers and troubles me. Those who support him trouble me, too. I want to know what to look for by the time of the trial. Much more needs to come from the witnesses and I am going to figure out what those things are. As I listen to the investigators questioning and the testimony they got, ideas come to me. Having as many of these as I can helps me keep my mind open. If I don’t think of possibilities, then the physical evidence is useless. These speculations are what make the evidence make sense and hold together.

        I have many more ideas that I just haven’t organized yet. I’m sure all of you do, too. In the end we’ll all say, “Oh, I suspected that. I thought of that. I knew that was how it would turn out.”

        Even you, my friend, are spinning ideas that we have all been chiseling out of stone for the past 6 months. It was work to get to what we “know” now. It’s a thought process that will probably continue until the trial. We can learn more than we know now. Then it will be in the jury’s hands and will pop like a balloon when their verdict is read.

        • Fair enough. I just think we need more data at this point. I’m as guilty as anyone of soeculation, I fully admit.

          I’m just ready for the next document dump and weary of trying to figure out where GZ went in the missing minutes. Too many possibilities and not enough data for my taste.

          I’m more interested in studying the pattern of his lies and applying that in a speculative fashion. He worked hard (in vain) to hide the running, and the car to pedestrian chase. He seems caught in the lie that he ever stumbled anywhere once he was struck in the face. He’s also very suspiciously leaving out what he did with his hands during the physical struggle, and he has injuries seemingly inconsistent with his stories. I place as much stock in deducing a scenario from those sorts of clues as I do in parsing what the residents saw and heard. In other words it’s guesswork, but sure it’s worthy guesswork if it eventually leads somewhere when and if we get more data.

          I can’t wait to hear what the FDLE report has in it.

          • Willis i love reading your posts, you really do try and stick to what can be used in court and i totally appreciate it. I also love reading everyone else for the different things they offer. Sometimes all the finer points are lost on me because i don’t have the mind or intelligence to disect the major points, but i am still very engaged for the simple reasons, the emotional reasons, this basic “what the fuck was he doing harassing an innocent kid and killing him” reasons.

            I get so much from each persepective, from the break downs of witnesses, to the location of the car, to the clubhouse lights, to the witnesses, to the simple cries for justice.

            I really love what you are doing Willis and look forward to all of your posts and know what i can expect from you and appreciate also what i can get from every one else. Thank God we have this wonderful forum where we can blend it all together. I would not have seen things about this case had it not been for your perspective, or jays, or qetnos, aussie, princss, riisey (i miss u), csfc, nlme, tchoupi, WSI and everyone else. I come here because i can get a bit of everything and because everyone loves to drink (cheers qetno).

            It’s rare that i go anywhere else, and completely amazing that apart from a few hostile visitors this place has remained so darn respectable.

            Looking forward to next weeks dumps, and looking forward to all the different perspectives by everyone.

            • Thanks for the kind words. This is a great group and I’m proud to be a small part of it. My first months of being a commenter in blogs were spent at talkleft blog where a hyper-zealous moderator deleted anything I wrote that wasn’t easily provable in court, time and again. It’s made me into a stickler for the legal end of the case but in my opinion all the emotion, heartbreak and injustice will be present in spades if and when this case is presented to a jury.

              George Zimmerman is the best witness for the prosecution. His words alone and should be enough in court to show he profiled, pursued and provoked Trayvon.

              This us the kind of testiimony the defense cannot impeach. “I said x but I really meant y” doesn’t get you far in court.

              I’m no lawyer, and in fact sometimes I think our criminal justice system is this country’s only working railroad. But it’s the only mechanism the Martin’s have to turn to for now. And in this case it seems to be bringing justice, however imperfectly it may be to a lying child killer.

              I only wish there were also a full outside and credible investigation of Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger as well. Of all the things we won’t know, thier hidden actions bother me the most, since justice and sunlight isn’t as certain there.

            • now that would be one hell of an investigation, that’s for sure. Lets hope it’s next on the agenda.

    • I guess we never really know what happened, but from my own experience, I just can’t imagine it.
      I’ve had an experience with being followed and an attempted assault, and that was followed a couple of months later with an assault in a stairway. I think I was sixteen.
      I got away unharmed both times.
      I can’t say that everybody will react the same way I did. But what I do know, is that your instincts take over, and you don’t react the way you think you would.
      The moment you turn around and start running, you relinquish power. You’ve become prey. You don’t think it, but you know it.
      Trayvon had the advantage that Zimmerman was in his car. That gave him time to get out of his sight. It is counter-intuitive to me, to flee in a direction where Zimmerman could see him, an then stop near his home to continue his call.
      If you choose to run in a situation like that, you are scared shitless.

      You know that you have signalled your fear. The adrenaline is pumping through your body, your heart is beating like crazy, you’re shaking and your knees are buckeling. If you are near your home, you go inside.

      That is my experience. I am open to hearing how other people experienced similar situations.

      • it depends. He knew this guy was watching him, but it’s hard for him to know just how much trouble he was in. He didn’t know this guy had a gun and was going to shoot him in a few minutes. I’ve second guessed myself a few times and though…is this guy following me? He walked to the cut through and then probably thought see ya later MF and ran off road knowing that this idiot couldn’t follow him there because he was in his car. I doubt he seriously thought this creep would get out of his car to continue the pursuit. He probably thought he was pretty safe. GZ said the flashlight wouldn’t work so as Tray was running/jogging/skipping home he wouldn’t have been any the wiser that GZ was out of his truck in in pursuit. Then he see’s him, now it’s serious, this guy really is pursuing him, he’s in his back yard, WTF! Now it becomes real.

        Arrgh i want to vomit. So many simple things could have saved this kid, if only he knew he had a trained vigilante on his ass who’s weapon was especially purchased to end a face to face scuffle that might end up on the ground. That description by MO is enough to make me believe GZ felt safe enough to confront someone.

        • I know most of my experience comes from me second guessing myself. But what did you do in those cases? Did you run?
          There is a certain progression in fear in these circumstances. When I found myself wondering if someone was following me or displaying an uncomfortable interest in me, I would feel the first level of anxiety. I would asses the situation in which I found myself first. Is it dark? Are there other people around? How dangerous is my situation, if this person means harm?
          The first strategy I would apply, is to walk away. If the person has no particular interest in you, that would be the end of the situation.
          If this person then starts moving in the same direction as I do, my anxiety would reach another level. Next thing I probably would do, is to slow down or stop, pretending I was looking at something, and by doing so allowing the person to pass me. If that person would also stop, I would know I am in trouble, and I would be getting really scared. That is the level of anxiety, where you may start running, but at that point you also know you are being preyed upon, and the person who has been following you, also knows that you know and doesn’t seem to care about that fact.

          Now, I’m talking from a white female perspective. I think, in the same circumstances as Trayvon found himself, I probably would have gone to one of the houses with lights on ring the bell or I would stand in front of that house facing Zimmerman and make sure he sees me making my call to 911.
          Or I may have suddenly changed direction by going through a gap between those houses, knowing I will have some time to disappear while out of his sight, because he can’t follow me there in his car.

          If you listen to Deedee’s story, Trayvon did seem to apply some of the early strategies. So I think that when he ran, he had established in his mind that he was in danger.

          I think most people would do something similar, but I may be wrong, so I would like to hear from other people, and what they did under similar circumstances.

        • Exactly. Trayvon Martin’s danger honing skills weren’t yet fully fine-tuned. You develop those skills through experience. He first ran and, imo, probably thought he escaped because he either did not fully understanding that he was really under attack and shrugged it off as his own paranoia over being in a community that he was less familiar with -or- he simply shrugged off his gut instincts because, nah, this ain’t happening to me — it only happens in the movies.

          In any event, Trayvon Martin abandoned his initial gut instinct to run and convinced himself he was out of danger. That’s why I think he was just chilling on the phone until Zimmerman re-confronted him. He thought he’d lost his stalker and probably thought he had overblown his initial fears anyway.

  68. Witness 11 transcript files are in place.

    The first draft of her composite is up, too. The composite is a chronological ordering of all the words a witness says; just the sequence without times except (1) where the witness gives times and (2) in the 911 call. It’s handy to see all the text for one witness in this form.

    The big spreadsheet is where I timeline things. I do this carefully but time estimates are a lot of guesswork. I’m interested in your advice and corrections.

  69. “The five of us were deeply touched by the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Trayvon looked like us and took his last breath less than 30 minutes from where we live. We hope this song helps to heal our nation.” — Limitless5ive

  71. Didn’t Serino say it would defy the laws of physics for TM to have made it home and then back, at least taking the route described by GZ? Take a look.

  72. I’ve been off the case for a whole week and more now. It was nice reading from you guys. I’ll try to play catch up.

    Jo, I’ve read about your nephew. I hope things moved for the better. I’ve recently been myself though somewhat similar situation and I have to say that I’m fortunate to be to put that behind and live normally. I don’t pray but I sincerely wish for your nephew to be able to put this behind.

    Concerning GZ’s case, I have a few points to make but I’m not sure I’ll be able to do it quickly. So, I’ll tackle only what I believe is simple.

    To Amsterdam, you should not take the published 18min time offset of the clubhouse vids as hard proven values. It is in fact just a rough estimation made by SPD based on the ambulance appearance at the north gate.
    R38 logged his “on scene” at 7:27:26. So, assuming the 18min is correct, this event happens at the 39:26 time stamp in the video. The ambulance is see arriving at the gate at 39:41. This is indeed not too bad. We can argue about 15sec assuming R38 made its log from the gate. But, it really is not too bad.
    What is really bad about the 18min is how to fit it with Ofc T. Smith story. T. Smith logged his ARV to GZ’s NEN call at 7:17:11 and was seen by Wit 3 from her front room giving on TTL at 7:17:47. Therefore, these two events should happen at the 29:11 and 29:58 time stamps of the videos. I logged all the events (http://imgur.com/a/bcAII), so it is not too difficult to check that there is no vehicle entering the complex and going to TTL before 30:54. There are 2 vehicles entering the complex at 29:12. So, it may sound pretty good. However, both turn right and drive west on RVC without even an halt by the clubhouse. So, they can’t be what Wit #3 noticed while on the phone with 911 dispatch. There is one car at 30:20 but is goes east on RVC toward the gate. So, that’s not T. Smith entering the complex and it is more than 1min later anyhow.
    I’m therefore left with just one option: the vehicle that came in at 30:54. That one is interesting not only because it goes on TTL from the gate but also because it really moved slowly along the mailboxes kiosk. The pattern for cars going from the north gate to east gate on TTL is 5-6sec between GR vid & EPH vid. That car makes it in 12sec. The additional evidence of its slow pace is the red light spot it showed on the EPH video by the kiosk. The only other car I can remember showing a light spot on the EPH by the kiosk is GZ’s truck who stopped there for 10sec. Finally, that vehicle went east and disappeared from the EP vid at 31:30.
    Now, if I assume that at 30:54 in the vids it is 7:17:11 then at 31:30 it is 7:17:47. That works very well for T. Smith story and wit #3 911 call. However, it means that the vids are not 18min off but rather 16min & 17sec. How does it work for the ambulance? The ambulance appears at the gate at time stamp 39:41. So, it is 7:25:58pm which is 1min & 28sec before the “on scene” is logged.
    It is not great I agree. It takes only 30sec to drive from the north gate to the east end of the dog path and it took the ambulance 13sec to clear the gate (total 43sec). I’m still off by roughly 45sec. Nevertheless, I have nothing to tell me at what point R38 sent his “ON SCENE” message. So, I feel more comfortable with assuming that the videos are off by 16min rather than 18min because at least, I have T. Smith’s vehicle and the ambulance in the videos.

    • Tchoupi thanks you that’s really sweet of you. You have been missed and i’m glad the worst is behind you. Really happy to see you back.

    • Hi Tchoupi,
      Good to see you back.
      I got the 18 min from page 87 of the second evidence dump. It is part of the FDLE investigation report. It says the information that the camera clocks were 18 minutes slow, came from the tech person from the company in charge of the maintenance of the clubhouse video system. So it doesn’t appear to be an estimate based on light events on the videos.

      I agree it raises some questions about Smith’s movements, but it does match the info we got from the nen call. When I use the 6:48 start time, Zimmerman’s nen call begins when the truck is somewhere near the corner of RVC and TTL, and he is driving at a snail’s pace past the mailarea, during the early part of the nen call.
      The rearlights at 22:50 in the eastpool video, would’ve been at 7:10:50. That would place that event very close to the time Trayvon started walking away from the clubhouse.

      You are a lot better in interpreting the lights than I am, and I’ve been using your interpretation of light events.
      I would really appreciate if you would look at the sequence of lights again and explain to me, where I go wrong in my interpretation.

      We can see what looks like a car passing by the mailarea at 22:14 in the eastpool hall video. The lights that you describe as the headlights in the eastpool hall video, belonging to the car making u turn, can be seen between 22:32 and 22:50. The rear lights of the car driving east on TTL begin at 22:50 in the eastpool video. That would mean the headlights can be seen before the car makes its uturn. That could mean the video’s aren’t synchronous, but other events don’t show that.

      It could also mean those lights belong to another car facing east on TTL, but I don’t understand how that could be, when I look at the camera angles in one of your presentations, unless the car was on the sidewalk. I would really appreciate if you could explain to me where the car was located, for those lights to show up in the eastpool hall video.

      I do see headlights, like you said, around 23:30 in the eastpool video, that could indicate Zimmerman made a uturn.

      The problem I have with the car making à uturn is the following reason:
      At I believe it is 23:34 a car is moving north on TTL past the mailarea. That car must have been the same car as the one of which we saw the headlights in the eastpool video just before that.
      That would indicate to me that car was heading back in the direction of RVC.
      We don’t see any car going west on TTL until the emergency vehicles begin to arrive.

      So, if Zimmerman made a uturn, he must have left his car north of the mailarea and not east.
      Now I believe when Zimmerman opens his mouth, it is very likely it is to tell a lie, so I’ve seriously considered the possibility that he made a uturn and was driving back towards RVC.
      The reason I don’t think that is a likely scenario, is because of the description he gave in the nen call about the location of his truck. At that time he had no reason to lie.

      My question to you, is your scenario of the car making a uturn, based on the sequence of the light events, or did you see something else that I have missed?
      Is there a reason to exclude that the car we see moving west on TTL is another car, and Zimmerman did not make a uturn, but continued east on TTL?

      • Of all the events to choose from for a sync point on the esst pool video, the timing of the NEN call is the one we know to be accurate in some regard. But of course it’s only a general estimate. The visual of Tim Smith by a resident should be “ballpark” right as well.

        If the investigators ever put any stock in the clubhouse videos it seems logical that the thing to do would be to wet the streets down with a water truck and shoot a few test videos for comparisons’ sake. I’d sure love to see a daytime view of the east pool video as well to verify the exact camera angle.

        IMO the camera flare that obscures the top left of the frame in the east pool video is likely a floodlamp that shines on the pool and deck, and is mounted on the eaves of the building. It also seems that the angle of view is such that the very edge of the road of TTL at the cut through corner may be on the edge of frame.

        What I can’t tell is his far the cars that travel east on TTL are from camera at what point.

        What might be the porch light at w11’s house seems to come on at one point close to the action of what seems to be GZs movements.

        I’ve not deciphered the action well enough for myself yet but I agree with Amsterdam that the idea of two cars is worth examining. I also wonder if GZ may have turned his lights off around the time of his first (if there were two) u turns.

        Whatever these videos show, and IMO they are still inconclusive but need not remain so with further analysis, they already go a long way towards being valuable evidence of GZs lies. A reasonably simple battery of recreation tests byte FDLE would quickly resolve almost all the questions thus present as to movements. It’s unsure if the exact timing could be determined or not.

        Thanks to everyone who has been helping work on this puzzle piece, Tchoupi especially.

        ( I dint think the prosecution feels the videos are needed to prove guilt, but again IMO they are dropping the ball by not pursuing this line of inquiry. What’s disturbing is how these videos seemingly point to a tipoff person, which is literally a “conspiracy theory” at this point but may not stay in the realm of speculation forever.

        • “IMO the camera flare that obscures the top left of the frame in the east pool video is likely a floodlamp that shines on the pool and deck, and is mounted on the eaves of the building. It also seems that the angle of view is such that the very edge of the road of TTL at the cut through corner may be on the edge of frame.”

          The light in the top corner frame expands towards the pool, when a car driving west on TTL goes through the bend on TTL heading north. The only other time you see a light comparable to the event, is the light of an emergency vehicle. It is possible that that vehicle parked in the area you described.
          I don’t think it is a porchlight. The light can be seen for a couple of seconds then disappears and appears again from a slightly different angle. I’ve considered a tight uturn right in the bend of TTL, but it just doesn’t make sense that the rearlights from a car that can be seen going east, are seen after the headlights of that same car facing west.

          As I interpret the light events, it is possible that the car that passed the kitchen window, and turned south on TTL, could have made a uturn. I just don’t see how the lights we see on the EPH video, could have been part of that sequence. But I have been wrong before, so I hope that Tchoupi can explain to me how that conclusion was arrived at.

          The biggest problem I have with the car making a uturn, is that the car appears to be moving, going through the bend on TTL towards RVC.
          It doesn’t matter whether the video begins at 6:46 or 6:48, no car drives east again on TTL after the car we see driving towards the north gate and before the first emergency vehicle on TTL. If that was Zimmerman making a uturn, he could not have left his car on the east/west section of TTL.

          The prosecution may be able to proof GZ’s guilt using the clubhouse videos, if they can show that Trayvon got there long before Zimmerman did. in that case he must have gotten a tip, and left his house packing a gun to go hunt for Trayvon.
          Another thing the videos show is that GZ’s behaviour, if the 6:48 time is correct, must have been very intimidating in Trayvon’s eyes. It would make a mockery of GZ’s statements about Trayvon’s suspicious behaviour and it also backs up Deedee’s statements.

          • We need to define some terms and find the areas we can all agree on before delving too deeply into all this, I am afraid. I wasn’t sure of a lot of what you were just writing about, Amsterdam. It’s all so subjective, you know. I think I agree with you but I’d hate to jump the gun and misunderstand.

            east pool combined diagram w tell tale reflection location noted

            Here is a set of photos and diagrams that might help us all get on the same page before we diverge opinions….

            I think the car in question at the 23″38 mark that “re-appears” and makes the constant flare bloom dramatically could be the same car that disappeared into the blind spot seconds before. But we need to slow down and figure out what we are even looking at, I think.

            The pools of light that reflect in the wet street are worth watching, I think. The absence of constant light sources is as important as the appearance of moving ones IMO.

            I have ZERO conclusions to offer at present but want to be of help. Both Amsterdam and Tchoupi are groping towards a consensus, I feel that others may soon share. These videos are proof of foul play provided they can be substantiated well.

            Feel free to post to the flickr pages if you don’t want to clog this blog with speculation and back and forth on what I’ve posted on flickr. It’s just me trying to get my bearings and define our terminology for now.

            • I’ve updated the flickr set of east pool video photo interpretations. Still no conclusions, but I did find a “tell-tale” reflection that may sort out which direction car headlights are heading.

              I’m curious to hear feedback, and I’m also dying to hear if there can be a consensus on timing – if it is at all possible to sync the clubhouse videos with the NEN call recording even semi-accurately I’d say it’s a valuable tool the prosecution should (but likely may not) take advantage of.

            • Hi Willis
              Added two links to videos at the bottom of the page. Spliced the light events in sequence, added a real time clock, and the nen call. Looked at your photo’s but it is getting late here now, so I’ll take a closer look tomorrow. It does look interesting. I’ve concentrated mainly on the sequence of the events and the timeline.

    • @tchoupi & @ Jo
      “I don’t pray but hope your nephew is improving”

      Me neither but wish with all my heart for healing for all of you and your loved ones.

    • @tchoupi
      Says been off case for a week now.

      Your incredible work was recommended in a pro Z blog …maybe talk left but not sure.
      Does that make all your parts wiggle w/ delight? Very cool, actually.

  73. New topic. Steroid rage?
    GZ looks so much smaller now and even w/ MOM putting him in large suits to make him appear smaller, he is.. And him following TM is out of his character since anger / no longer drinking class. There are no police reports of him fighting since 2006 or so. Frankly, you would have to be greatly impaired by booze or amped up to confront a teenager especially a male teen. It is seriously foolhardy & GZ is oddly fussy about his comfort needs on cell calls ( Yey, tomorrow is shower day, not warm enough, feeling chilly, extra blanket-not even pretending to be macho-asks John ” am I bleeding”, asks for Kleenex & water at every chance) he is very focused on his care.IMHO a little bit on the sissy side as to self preservation for a man his age.

    Anyone else thinking steroid rage? They wouldn’t show up in medical records so probably just me obsessing. But would love to hear what you young men think about this?

    • Do steroids impair judgement? GZ is all over the map. I’ve come to the conclusion that his odd answers are due to the fact that he interprets things in strange ways; as if his intuition has gone haywire. On Dr. Phil they were saying GZ thought “Do you still want an officer to come out?” meant go search for the kid. “Why you following me?” to George meant “You got a problem?” and many other mistakes.

      Or maybe he is just lying. When I was little and did bad stuff and lied about it, there were always adults who could see right through me. The grownups would call me out and make me see the error of my ways. Didn’t matter if it was at school, at church, or at home. That was not in Florida.

      Steroids? He looks like a completely different person now.

      • I think he is just lying. He probably always wanted to lose the fat and after the initial pouring in of “other people’s money”, he could afford to fast-track his body remolding.

      • @ Jay, you said: “I’ve come to the conclusion that his odd answers are due to the fact that he interprets things in strange ways; as if his intuition has gone haywire…Or maybe he is just lying.” ***
        BOTH wacky “intuition”, AND he’s lying. On the show, Osterman was saying “in his mind, he was thinking….” Understanding GZ’s “interpretations” means understanding his mindset. He was in pseudocop mode that night. Unlike his previous NEN calls where he said “I don’t want to approach him personally”, in the call about TM, he had no fear and with a gun in tow. He’s gonna argue that Seans questions of “OK, let me know if he’s doing anything else” and “He’s running? Which way is he running?” to mean “get to where you can see him.” The very FACT that he’s a NW watch captain, and had made numerous calls before where he did not engage the “suspect” says that he knew very well not what to do. Instead, he chose that night to tail TM like an undercover cop, except he’s NOT one.

      • Almost all of the “i was directed by dispatch to move in order to maintain visual” can be traced to GZ’s efforts to obscure, omit and obfuscate his movements from clubhouse to Cut thru area. He told a “little white lie” about parking in the clubhouse parking lot (never happened) and then Singleton caught him in it very quickly and produced a map for the second interview, pointing out that his rushed first story skipped the fact that TM would have had to walk past him at least once before the two were near the cut thru. This is where GZ starts making up the idea that he was instructed to move by the dispatcher. In the FIRST telling of this phony instruction, GZ says it as the reason he left his truck and took off on foot following the teen. Then, when he’s given the map he conflates the two incidents trying to amend the tale to why he moved his truck from the clubhouse parking lot. That’s why he ends up (in the “recreation” walk thru video, for instance) needing to claim he was told TWICE to move to maintain visual.

        He worked very hard to leave out the idea that he drove his car down TTL behind the teen and that this is why Trayvon ran away from him and ran away from the roadway, as Dee Dee confirms in the Crump interview. Also keep in mind that GZ never volunteered the idea that Trayvon ran away at all until he was prompted by investigators, and that but for the NEN call recording, the SPD would never have known that TM ran away at all. This is what he was trying to hide and this is why he invented the lies about being “told” to move. He’s trying desperately to hide the fact that he pursued the teen with both car and on foot. His later pattern of suspicious statements about “Returning to)wards) his vehicle” fit into the same pattern of lies – omission, obfuscation and mis-direction but are not as easily proven 100% false given the lack of witnesses and the confusion of the “missing minutes” which George mischaracterizes as “less than 30 seconds” and explains as time he spent at RVC banging on his black tactical flashlight.

        In other words, the simplest explanation for GZs’s statements about being directed to move is that GZ is a poor liar who is covering up disturbing and illegal behavior that’s part of the depraved mindset he exhibited that night when he profiled, pursued and shot an unarmed teen, later lying to investigators about the behavior.

    • Hmm.. IMO, Zimmerman is very focused on blood being drawn to justify his violence against another. I don’t think Zimmerman is a caring person. He using blood being drawn to justify his reactions. Zimmerman sees red and takes it to a whole other level.

      • @common sense for change says
        ” I don’t think GZ is a caring person.

        No, listening to his calls he is 100% for his own care..nothing for Shelly, sister, or bro-in law. He is a very serious sociopath & his behavior will increase to even more dangerous events. I meant his caring/ fussiness/ concern for himself seems at odds with his impulsive reckless rage out of the blue on 2/26. He had those behaviors in his past but maybe due to no longer drinking, that had stopped. I am referring to the aggressive rage act-if steroid rage would be the precipitating cause? He does look so different and he wasn’t fat like he was in 2005 mug shot-more muscular in 2012 police pixs.

        I’m a clinical social worker so figuring out human behavior intrigues me–like the intricate tech stuff does you brainiacs. No blood work, of course, so unless there’s a plea deal offered to Shelley (I think that’s what perjury charge is all about-state went looking to get her to testify against him) or if they can subpoena his charge records before 2/26 we may never know.

        There is a reason he became so overtly violent that night and has nothing to do with Trayvon or neighborhood watch or being fed up w burgularies. He had kept a lid on his fury.

        • The person we hear in the nen call, does sound very different than the whiny guy in the interviews.

          • @ Amsterdam
            Says:”the person we hear in the calls does sound very different than the whiny guy in the interviews.

            Exactly & more to my Roid Rage question-He sounds very different in his 2/26 NEN than he does in ALL of his 46 previous NEN calls where he has no reason to be a Mr. milquetoast. A blogger way back in beginning postulated jokingly if the guy in the interviews was the same guy who called in 2/26.” Add that with big change in body size??

            I know prosecution doesn’t have to prove motive but if they uncovered steroid use to explain his motive for his “those assholes…f**ing punks…getting my gun pissed off actions as motive for exiting his truck,following & then shooting TM his goose is cooked. They probably can’t get proof w/o Shellie’s cooperation so that’s where perjury charge comes in. Alot of times they will show spouses proof of affairs to get this type of needed info but didn’t have any girlfriends to use.

            Another subject..watched the Fox interview( ugh) MO said GZ certainly was knowledgeable in SYG–went into detail of how it’s taught in gun class. I’ll bet MOM is in hissytown. Oh snap, didn’t poor George tell Hannity he had no prior knowledge of this law?

            • I am a bit puzzled as to why GZ called police. Bet he wishes he hadn’t. I mean that NEN call is a thorn in his flesh. Corey and staff used it for GZ’s profiling, depraved mind, and lying later. Depending what turns out to be most important to the jury, that call could hang the man.

              I aim to study without GZ’s other inputs. After figuring out what really happened I will probably go through George’s lies again. Psychologist experts can show us when George is lying in videos based on nervous tics, Freudian slips, double clutching on rehearsed lines, and the like. This will further help to straighten out the story.

  74. Black and White.

    I’d like to approach the Who’s-On-Top subject. John w6 definitely places Trayvon on top. Notice black in a black shirt/hoodie. Even when they shift to the sidewalk (unlike GZ’s claim that he shifted to grass) w6 leaves them with the black shirted guy on top. This is around 7:16:00. A bit later w3 sees a white shirt on top. Not just any kind of shirt: a tee-shirt. That’s pretty specific. Whiter man in a poppin’ white shirt? Point: that’s not Trayvon.

    When was this? Seems to me that sometime between when w6 left them, within about 20 seconds when w3 looks down and sees them, their positions have reversed. I’m thinking that GZ had been on his back. But by 7:16:16 GZ is on top and Trayvon is on his back. This correlates to when the “Help” screams become clear. John w6 told us that GZ was struggling and probably attempting to get up. I could see the gun coming out easily as GZ gets Trayvon down. Only other way is if it had been out before the struggle started.

    “On Top” has a little different meaning after the gunshot. George is on top as soon as witnesses 5, 6, and 12 look out. But he is standing over Trayvon. Does anybody ever see Trayvon on top again? If what I said above was the major change point then Trayvon was shot on the ground. There would be no need to do anything like move the body or wiggle out from under it. When the three ladies see them just seconds after the shot GZ is standing directly over Trayvon straddling him with both feet. Eerie…

    • I agree that the fight was dynamic and the only time TM was placed on top was when W6 ducked his head out for a second. I took the “white T-shirt” to just mean that it was a small white patch of color that the female witness saw that popped out in the night. As in she couldn’t see the arms, so she called it a T shirt. But if GZ was on top then she wouldn’t have described the back of his darker jacket as a T shirt. She may have seen GZ on his side or back (so she saw his light grey shirt as white). If so TM was not hovering over him at that point. Since it’s the only color she saw, I’m not sure if her depth perception would have been good enough in that lighting to tell if the “T-shirt” was on top of another body or not, so I’d have to rule out her positioning in that regard. Let’s also remember that TM had light colored pants on, but I’m not sure if that would be mistaken for a T-shirt.

      • It’s an odd thing to contemplate, but the loose dog belonging to Austin was white. Could the dog have been mistaken for a T shirt of a man on the ground? (other thought there was a dog fight, too at first. I think it was W11 or the spouse that floated that idea.) Austin doesn’t offer that the dog ran over to the fighting men, ever but neither does he say where the dog ran when it got off it’s leash, only that this caused him NOT to see the men for a bit after he had already determined something was happening.

        Studies show that eyewitnesses are just plain wrong a lot of the time. The white T shirt may mean nothing at all.

        Austin was very close to the two men. In the photo he posed for the press, I’d estimate his distance from where the shell casing was found as less than 30 feet away. He’s also one of the few who wasn’t looking through glass – maybe the only one before the shot was fired to have such a close view.

        • Here’s the link to the picture Austin posed for showing his location, along with an estimate of where that is on an aerial photo.

          13yoBoyMap first estimate. (needs slight revision)

          Keep in mind however that from his vantage point, the men were dark figures against a darkened background, as opposed to what, say w13 may have seen later as the figures from his house would be backlit by John’s porchlight/ patio area.

          Also keep in mind how VERY dark it was outside. Television news video cameras shot the scene when every porch light was on and several cop cars tried to shine lights onto the scene in addition to any lights the TV station may have added and it’s STILL pretty dark in that dog walk.

          tree.body.shoe

          This is a brightened-in-photoshop flash photo taken by police with a powerful flash unit on a film camera probably using 800 ASA film. Look behind the yellow tarp covering Trayvon’s dead body into the area towards Brandy Green’s home and you will see that even the white fences barely have any light on them to reflect back to camera. I can’t emphasize this more – it was DARK out.

          Here’s a helicopter video camera’s frame grab, gain-booster to the point it’s falling apart seemingly taken before the cop cars were pulled onto the grass to shine headlights onto the crime scene – it’s pitch black back there almost.

          pseudo ridgelone heli3

        • A conjecture on my part:
          It would make Austin’s situation completely understandable if he had been right there when the gunshot went off.

          This would explain why his dog bolted away. His mother says he was hysterical when she arrived. He is deeply guilt ridden. He acted out at school. Mom hired a lawyer.

          Austin says otherwise. He is careful not to mention a gun or a gunshot. It was just a loud noise.

          He thought there was only one person on the ground. Not clear if he saw from the top (with one on top) or from the side (with them laying on sides). When Serino gave him a choice of red, white, or black, Austin chose red. Mom and lawyer got him to say later that he couldn’t see any color.

          I think this dog could be important. Not sure how. John w6 says his first thought was it might have been a dog attack. W12 says she first heard a loud dog howl which she ignored. W19 had her dog out on the back porch and he was barking his head off, pulling to get into the fight.

  75. I haven’t finished with witness 12 yet. But I got a few new ideas from her today.

    She mentions the time 7:10. That could mean she noticed the running at about 7:11:40 (w6 says the first noises were 5 minutes before the shot) (w1 says “They were running in the back.”)

    W12 says the vocalizations got “louder” which could mean they were getting closer. Not sure when this was but it could fit with the argument and scuffle coming around w11’s house coming east in the direction of w12/w13’s house.

    On her second look she sees “shadow”. I think she must mean silhouettes. A porch light across the way, behind the two men would cause both. GZ was standing over Trayvon at that time.

    Witness 12 was looking out at the same time Selma was. She sees Selma ask GZ if he wants them to call 911. She would have witnessed GZ walking away from the body. She then sees her husband w13 get out there and talk with GZ. W13 is fearless in the face of this shooting but w12 wants him back inside. She never goes out back the whole evening.

    There seems to be another flashlight just before w13 comes out with his. There are two flashlights before the police arrive in the back yard. Near the end of one of w12’s interviews w13 says, “It’s so dark back there. There’s no light unless somebody turns their patio light on. And I know we had ours off. We didn’t have… she didn’t turn it on until the police got there. I know the one neighbor probably didn’t turn there’s on until somebody came out with a flashlight.” He seems to be talking about another ?neighbor? with a flashlight other than himself. Who could it be?

    • Could the second someone with a flashlight, prior to ofc Tim Smith’s arrival actually be GZ himself, with his keychain flashlight? It seems doubtful but there is that theory that GZ walked north to “plant” his keychain flashlight as a false trail for him to claim the fight started up by the T.

      IMO he’s capable of such foul play but what makes me doubt it is the speed at which he would be setting up a false trail and building his false narrative. Seconds after shooting someone dead, he’d be very quick to be covering his tracks, wouldn’t he?

      Anyway, it has to be considered as one of several possibilities.

      Another possibility is that the witness was simply mistaken. W13 had a flashlight and an iPhone 4, which has a flash for the camera and the ability to create a beam of light just from the screen itself. The picture of the bloody head seems to be a flash photo, as do the other two shots W13 took with it.

      • Could flashlight one be GZ with his larger tactical flashlight? I’ll have to do more study but I think Smith gets to the back yard area a couple minutes later sometime in the 7:19 minute.

    • That sneaky devil Bernie de la Rionda got witness 12 to say GZ was on top of Trayvon before the shot.

      de la Rionda: And you looked out… did you see… when you first looked out were the people standing up or on the ground?

      W12: At first, I couldn’t see anything. It was dark.

      de la Rionda: Okay.

      W12: The second time I looked… I looked so many times outside I don’t know which one is which.

      de la Rionda: Right. No. That’s fine.

      W12: But I know when I first… what I remember is, it was too dark. And then a guy was on top of another guy…

      de la Rionda: Okay.

      W12: …and the shot.

      de la Rionda: Okay. So the shot was after you first saw somebody on top of another guy?

      W12: Uh huh.

  76. In seeing TM’s father on the Dr. Phil show talk about his guilt for not being there to take the bullet, I thought of a quote from Old Rose in the movie TItanic about the survivors of the tragedy.
    “Wait to die…
    Wait to live…
    Wait for an absolution…That would never come”

    It’s heartbreaking to see him be in such pain from misplaced guilt. I hope he’ll find peace someday.

  77. Oh my, here’s another Fox interview (this time with Osterman) that can be entered into evidence! Didn’t GZ deny ever hearing about SYG on Sean Hannity? Listen to what MO had to say here about that, his relationship to Chief Lee, being George’s token white friend and the massive rally that GZ could have held with all of his black friends.

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/19570099/only-on-fox-george-zimmerman-friend-who-hid-him-speaks-out

  78. I have made a compilation of the clubhouse videos. I begin at.20:20 into the kitchen video.
    These are the clips I used:
    20:20:00 to 20:50:10 Kitchen
    20:50:10 to 22:00:00 Game Room
    22:00:01 to 22:49:03 Eastpool Hall
    22:49:04 to 23:40:07 Eastpool
    23:40:08 to 23:43:00 Eastpool Hall
    23:43:01 to 27:18:03 Eastpool
    27:18:04 to 27:21:05 Eastpool Hall
    27:21:06 to 31:01:01 Game Room
    31:01:02 to 31:11:04 Eastpool Hall
    31:11:05 to 31:14:04 Eastpool
    31:14:05 to end Game room

    I used the same compilation to make 2 videos. One with a clock that has the clubhouse videos start time at 6:46:17 pm. That is the time Tchoupi arrived at.
    The other one has a clock with the clubhouse videos start time of 6:48:00 pm. I got that time using the time stamps included with the video, which began at 6:30 pm + the 18 min mentionend the clock was off, in page 87 of the second document dump.

    I’ve added audio tracks. Zimmermans nen call at 7:09:34, and w18’s 911 call, estimated by tchoupi to begin at 7:17:06.

    These videos are to help broaden the discussion. I don’t think the time is exactly right in either one of the videos.

    I will add two posts with the two videos.

  79. OK, so GZ says he carries his gun wherever he goes, even grocery runs to Target. But where did the ‘tactical’ flashlight come from? It had to have been in the truck, and in a handy location for him to grab it quickly as he saw TM start running. If he keeps it in the truck all the time, it probably wouldn’t be out and ready-to-grab, but tucked away in some storage spot. And if you do keep a flashlight in a truck for emergencies and what not, it’s probably not one of those ‘tactical’ jobs, exactly because their size and shape makes them awkward to stow in a vehicle. So i think this is just one more little indication that GZ left his house prepared to look for a target, not shop at Target.

    • GZ had a cell phone in one hand.
      He had to grab his car key (unless he already took it with him before).
      He had to open and shut the door.
      Finally, he had to grab his flashlight (unless he already had it with him).

      I believe he had his flashlight with him. I believe he was equipped before he left home. There was that article reporting about that neighbor saying that GZ was taking his NW job seriously enough to walk around in the neighborhood with his flashlight.

  80. This video uses a start time of the videos at 6:46:17. This Thoupi’s estimated begin time.

    I didn’t use the first 20:20 seconds of the video,
    I am using the real time as displayed in the video.

    7:07:04 A car that could be Zimmerman’s truck passes by the kitchen window.
    Video cuts to gameroom and shows the car passing by. Check Tchoupi’s site to get an explanation of the light events that can be seen.

    7:08:16 video cuts to the eastpoolhall.
    7:08:26 a car passes the mail area
    7:08:45 lights can be seen in the eastpoolhall video
    7:09:00 cut to eastpool where rearlights can be seen of a car moving east on TTL.
    7:09:44 Headlights of a car moving west on TTL can be seen.
    7:09:51 Cut to eastpoolhall where a car can be seen moving past the mailarea going north.
    7:09:53 Back to eastpool
    7:13:20 Headlights can be seen of a car driving west on TTL
    7:13:30 Car passes by mailarea in eastpoolhall video
    7:13:32 Back to game room. For timing purposes arrival police and emergency vehicles.

    Clubhouse Videos compilation with real time clock and audio call Zimmerman and witness 18 Part 1 from mirre on Vimeo.

  81. This video uses a start time of the videos at 6:48:00.

    I didn’t use the first 20:20 seconds of the video,
    I am using the real time as displayed in the video.

    7:08:47 A car that could be Zimmerman’s truck passes by the kitchen window.
    Video cuts to gameroom and shows the car passing by. Check Tchoupi’s site to get an explanation of the light events that can be seen.

    7:10:00 video cuts to the eastpoolhall.
    7:10:11 a car passes the mail area
    7:10:28 lights can be seen in the eastpoolhall video
    7:10:44 cut to eastpool where rearlights can be seen of a car moving east on TTL.
    7:11:28 Headlights of a car moving west on TTL can be seen.
    7:11:36 Cut to eastpoolhall where a car can be seen moving past the mailarea going north.
    7:11:37 Back to eastpool
    7:15:02 Headlights can be seen of a car driving west on TTL
    7:15:14 Car passes by mailarea in eastpoolhall video
    7:15:16 Back to game room. For timing purposes arrival police and emergency vehicles.

    Clubhouse Videos compilation with real time clock beginning at 6:48 with audio zimmerman and w18 part 2 from mirre on Vimeo.

    • Hi Amsterdam, thanks for this. I don’t know if you’re done editing it, but you should email NLME to have him put this video on his most recent post with all of the other commenter’s links for easy access.

      • Hi was so interesting,
        These are first drafts. I still don’t think the timing is right. I think the nen call may have started later. GZ said it took some time to get through, so I’m not sure whether the connection time is the time the audio began or he was on hold at that time.
        I am hoping we Will find out about that in the next document dump.

        I would love some feedback to improve video.

        • I’d like to see the east pool video at the point Tim smith seems to arrive and have as a sync point the audio of the witness who saw him arrive.

          Also as a general question: do we know for certain if and how the various clubhouse video angles are in sync with one another?

          Lastly, what do you think the parameters are for finding a sync point between sound and picture? The audio has a connection time and possibly a different tine for when the two start to actually converse. The picture has the 16-18 minute problem of the wrong time stamp. How far can we shift picture and audio forward and back before we are past the point of reasonable guesses?

          • Hi Willisnewton,

            I am waiting for todays document dump to add w3 to the video. The 6:48 time comes from the evidence, the only reason we still have some doubt is the arrival of Smith. When I use the 6:48 time, the policecar driving down TTL, would allign with Ayala’s arrival. There is a car arriving at the frontgate that would match up with Smith, however that car appears to turn right on RVC.

            The camera’s appear to be in synch, if you look at the sequence of the different light events. A car is seen near the frontgate, next a car can be seen passing the eph, and immediately following that you can see the rearlights in the ep video. So I am quite confident the videos are in synch.

            I am hoping todays dump may give us a more information about the 911 calls and the nen.
            The conversation in the nen call could have started as much as 24 sec after the connection time. At 1:14 into the call, Sean has all the information contained in the creation time entry. I think I may have heard him hitting the enter key at that time. I am not absolutely sure about that. Maybe people want to listen to that part of the nen call again and let me know what they think.

            If I subtract the 1:14 from the creation time, it gives me start time of 7:09:58. So the conversation begins anywhere between 7:09:34 and 7:09:58.

        • There is a w18 unredacted 911 call here:

          Don’t know if you can use the YouTube format. I think this one is pretty clean for timing.

          • Thanks Jay,

            That is a good one. I’ve downloaded it and have extracted the audio, so I definitely can use it.
            If you know of a clean one for w3, that would be great.

            • This is from whonose (Teeslaw). Witness 3 is second:

              I believe the w3 and w11 YouTubes that whonose posted are correct. They are redacted but have silence instead of deleted cuts. Their critical events seem right. And what really convinced me was they are nice and long -longer than the chopped ones others have posted.

          • “he just said he shot him dead” about 3.20. Didn’t GZ say he never thought he was seriously injured. Maybe conjecture from witness but i still don’t understand how GZ could say he had no idea trayvon was seriously injured, i guess he forgot he got up and walked around while his victim remained motionless on the grass.

            • she heard talking, she heard arguing, they were talking or wrestling. I know u guys have gone over the witnesses thoroughly but i haven’t heard this for a long time and she totally blows GZ’s version of events out of the water. Anyone else smell the roast pork burning?

    • The one that starts at 6:48:00 seems to be a failed experiment in syncing the audio with the picture. The other seems like it might be close.

      Thanks for doing this. I’d tried to examine the same using the “cowboy method” of playing two you tube vids at the same time but that wasn’t very scientific.

      Of course I would love it if you could see the vehicle behaving in the manner I think it did – pulling up to the first corner in TTL after the initial U turn and then turning round again after “these axxholes always get away” but the blind spot caused by that large “constant flare” makes it very difficult to tel for sure what is happening on TTL.

      What cannot be denied is that cars are seen moving up and down TTL at certain times of the night. If one were to work backwards from the witness who describes Tim Smith’s arrival from their upstairs window that might be the closest we will get.

      Also, I think the video shows quite well that GZ never parked in the clubhouse parking lot, and his likely slow trolling by the mailbox kiosk.

      But let’s face it, you can’t ever see TM near the mail kiosk, and you can’t see GZ chasing TM on foot or with his car well enough for a jury to feel this is the case beyond a reasonable doubt and that’s frustrating. Also, it doesn’t seem like the prosecution is pursuing this video evidence as a trial strategy as far as I can tell.

      And yet…. I still want to dig into this as far as it can be dug into and see if we can’t reach a consensus opinion on what IS there. Because it’s proof of plenty, I feel.

      There are reasons you can’t see what I said above – and they don’t yet include any proof that the guilty theories are at all wrong. Trayvon’s path was marked on a map by GZ as going thru the grass it seems, and for that reason we wouldnt see him ever – he’s wearing dark clothes anyway.

      GZ seemingly can’t be seen making a second U turn from the first corner of TTL but if his lights were off, he may be semi invisible on this crummy video.

      It’s also possible GZ drove behind TM in reverse and was always in the northern most lane of TTL and thus hidden in the blind spot. It’s just not the clear picture we’d like to see… so frustrating.

    • This is excellent Amsterdam. Bravo.

      During the past couple of days, I’ve entertained the possibility that the videos starts at 6:48 rather than between 6:46:00 & 6:46:30, and I still hit the same wall that is Wit #3 witnessing LEO T. Smith from her front bedroom on 1231 TTL. Maybe you should make another version of your video where W18 is replaced with W03. That may help putting that wall down.

      That said, if the vids really start at 6:48 then I agree with the point that GZ must have spotted TM from the RVC/TTL junction while driving east by the clubhouse. Then he drove back west on RVC and then east again before turning south on TTL soon after connecting with dispatcher Sean.

      The other point you’re making is that GZ never made a u-turn on TTL to face the clubhouse. You base that claim on a light event seen on the EPH vid right after a car is seen on the EP vid moving toward the north gate.
      I’m not convinced that this light event is that of car going north. I’ll try to find the correlation work I did a few month ago and distribute it. Although I may have been wrong, my conclusion was that this event differs from that of other cars by the size, brightness and height of the light spot. I also remember that it looks more like another light event that could not be associated with any car moving on TTL (cf. correlation table at 34:34). The light event @ 34:34 consisted in a faded & lower to the ground spot right before a brighted spot. Since there was no car on TTL, I had to conclude that the light source could only be coming from further back on RVC across the T. In other words, it could possibly be LEO Ayala parking there. So, the light event that you attribute to a car going north, is one that I considered being just the reflection on the road of GZ’s truck parked on TTL.
      Again, I may have been wrong and I can understand why. If that’s the case then we have something really really big here. Indeed, there was someone driving where GZ was parked at about the time GZ started his foot chasing of TM. If that’s what happened then lets open the 2012 witness hunting season.

      Thanks again for your great work

      • Thanks Tchoupi,

        That means a lot coming from you. I was working of your correlation table. I don’t think I could have done it without that.

        When I first started looking at these videos, I used the same light event as you do for the arrival of Smith. I just didn’t think it worked, and I started working with the 29 min arrival until you pointed out that that car turned right on RVC. I went back to 6:48 again after I found out about the timestamps and that the clock was 18 min slow.

        I don’t know what to do with w3’s statement about when and where she first saw the police, other than that Smith’s path was not going south on TTL, but taking a right on RVC when he first arrived, and when redirected, continued to drive west on RVC and arrived at TTL from the other side.
        I don’t know how that would work timewise.
        I assume the police uses gps to find an address, maybe someone can tell us, when a system relying on GPS will direct someone to make a uturn, rather than continuing on a road that is a circle.

        I believe that the latest evidence dump, will be released to the public today. It should include details about the 911 calls and the nen. I would love to include w3’s 911 call. If someone can direct me to a link that has an unedited version, I will definitely add that to the video.

        I agree that if the 6:48 time is correct, the car driving west on TTL at the time GZ was about to do his footchase is big. I really don’t think that too many people living in that community, would use that route to drive to leave the complex. Probably the people living south of w3 and maybe some who live on Long Oak way.

        That car made me believe a second car may have been involved. It reminded me of Taaffe’s interview where he describes Zimmerman’s car as facing towards the clubhouse instead of facing the T. Speculation of course. I’ve been trying to see if there is an indication that that car left the front gate. Maybe you could enlighten me on that point.

        There is also the car driving west on TTL around 27 min on the video. If the 6:48 time is correct, that would have been about 30 sec to a min before GZ ran into Trayvon again, so I would also be very interested to find out who that person was.

        I checked the 34:34 light event, and I agree, that looks more like the 22:33 lights. It is more diffuse, so it may have been further away. Closer to the T or even RVC.
        If the 6:48 time is correct, that could even have been Raimondo. Raimondo began cpr at 7:23.

        Let’s wait for the document dump, and then decide what changes to make to the video.

        • “I see a policeman now.” Witness 3 was very scared and glued to the front window searching for the cavalry to save her. She could have said this when blue flashing lights first approached, while the car was still outside the gate. Or it could have been sometime after Smith drove in. I’d ask her in trial.

          I posted whonoses’ YouTube link to the w11 and w3 recording. I think that has the correct timing.

          It’s not clear to me whether w3 would have gone downstairs and answered the door. If her address had been given for the shooting I don’t know why Smith was redirected to w5? w19? But he was. I’m getting the sense that Mary Cutcher is very convincing/influential. [I’d like to see a debate between Cutcher and Zimmerman.] Those on RVC seem to think the event happened on their side of the sidewalk. W12 says, “I saw the two shadow close to our patio.” What? I notice the slope of the ground toward TTL and I think most of the romping around and falling was west of the center sidewalk.

          Smith kept on driving around, parked on RVC, and walked in on the sidewalk by 2861 RVC as w13 had. This wasted a couple of precious minutes.

          • Smith has an arrival time on the GZ call log for 9:17:11. He is dispatched on the w3 call at 9:17:36. That is 25 sec before his non emergency call changed to an emergency call. Maybe he just started patrolling the area.

          • W3 called at 7:16:41. This is confirmed by the latest discovery released today.
            So, the timing I was giving is the correct. In other words, she saw police from her front bedroom upstairs at 7:17:41. She specifically said “I see police now […] but like it’s behind the house […] it’s not the front entrance.”.
            Her location is known from her interviews. She stated that after hearing and seeing from her back bedroom she locked herself in the other room before the gunshot. There only are 2 bedrooms in her townhouse. So, the other room (she actually calls it an office) can only be the front bedroom with view on TTL.
            So, the question is where did she saw police exactly?
            It sounds to me that she sees police at her front entrance and that she indicates that LEO must go behind her house.
            What are your thoughts?

            • Maybe we can establish when ofc. Raimondo arrived. He is the third officer, and was driving the first car that turned left on RVC, which he specifically states in his narrative. He has one clear arrival time unlike Smith and Ayala. We may be able to work backwards from that.

            • I think I’d like a recorded interview with Smith. It looks like he pulls in the main gate and w3 sees him out there at 7:17:41 and tells dispatch she sees him. He would have already been given her address. The number 1231 would be easy to spot on her house with a police car flood light. So, Smith stops his car in front of her house.

              At about 7:18:00 the dispatcher asks her, “Okay, and do you see the officer?” meaning see his car at her house.

              W3 answers, “Yeah but, like it’s behind the houses.” She’s kicking herself that she didn’t tell them the shooting was in back. She’s frustrated that Smith is in the wrong place and wasting time. She’s still freaking out.

              Why the officer doesn’t do the simple thing and walk around the building, I don’t know. I mean, w3 told them her address, that there was a gunshot, and that it was in the back. Instead he drives away. I’m sure there is a good explanation.

    • He’s barred by the bond order from carrying. Has he contested that, yet?

        • I’m not sure what’s going on with his permit, but I believe he should still be barred from possessing a weapon while out on bond. I’m a bit confused as to why it’s not listed in the 2nd bond order, but it was definitely stated in the first. I wouldn’t think they’d lift that condition considering he’s pending trial for a felony with a firearm. *shrug* Could be wrong…I’m wrong a lot. I don’t like to admit it, but I am, lol.

    • @wsi says
      state moves to suspend Shelly’s gun why not GZ?

      Have to be a convicted felon before losing gun rights. They are squeezing her w/ anything they can–does not concern the state that their motion will be denied. They mean to win & driving up a spouses legal costs is a tool. This is how our adversarial system works.
      @willisnewton
      Motion to suspend Shelly’s gun permit. What is that about?

      Need to strengthen case. DNA is good, NEN yes but witnesses are both good and not so much. We need Shelly!s inside info but she’s not flipping on her spouse. So they charge her w/ perjury, still not cooperating, next step add motions whether legal or not. The state will pile it on until she breaks. That’s why her attorney filed for a continuance- she needs more time to convince Shelly she has a future life and it’s time, baby, it’s time for you to give in so the torture will cease. We lost Casey Anthony case and, by god, ain’t goin happen again – at lease not as soon.

      The above is in no way pro GZ, but it’s a good take away for us. How the State Wins 99% of the time. If you want to see it truly down& dirty, read what the FBI did to Monica Lewinsky’s mother & Monica Lowensky herself. Arrested her with guns in a shopping center, would not let her call her mother, kept her in a small room for hours. This is example of what white wealthy defendants encounter.(see Wiki or book …hmm, was it called The Thin Blue Dress?) 🙂
      An example of poor Black defendants, watch Murder On A Sunday Morning ( won academy award for best docu in 2001). That young man wouldn’t plead guilty at interrogation. They called a cop to come in to take him out in woods and beat a confession. The cop was the sheriff’s son, nat glover. ( a very beloved man, actually) Nat ran for Jax. Mayor but Jax.hadn’t progressed that far. I think all of it is viewable on you tube but broken into parts. It’s just excellent and the public defenders are as good as they come. Their case was a slam dunk, jury came back with not guilty in 45 mn. But watching Pat McGuiness ask one of the detectives if he’s a smoker because “personally, I always enjoy a cigarette after screwing someone”. All cops went to prison, real murdered confessed but Brenton Butler will never be the same.

      Seems to me Sanford is Jax. 11 yrs. ago and it took a horrific murder to move a small central Fl. Town Into 21st. Century.

  83. “Sheeple = People unable to think for themselves. Followers. Lemmings. Those with no cognitive ablilities of their own.”

    This was a comment on OS made by someone hard for GZ to describe TM supporters.

    Hm, a funny statement from one of the crowd that talks like parrots. “George said…” “George’s father said…” “John said…”

    Wait, who can’t do the thinking?

    • “Bizarro world is all I can say.” — Quoted from CSFC.
      When I was trolling over at the nuthouse to get the scoop on crazy OG lady and MO’s book, it really was amusing to read some of their comments (the ones I wasn’t actually gagging/disgusted over anyway) about how that’s the only place to get “facts”. It’s a cult-like mindset that you just can’t break.

      • Gotta love the ride down the rabbit hole. Btw, do you happen to know if the full GZ reenactment still exists on the net? Am I just crazy, or did Zimmerman not admit to falling at the T before he ever mentioned anything about TM? I’m pretty sure that was said then the full tape got wiped from the net.

          • Thanks, Loree! I believe the reenactment was longer than this vid tho. Anyone else getting overwhelmed with this case?

            • Yes, I was doing so good at the begining, now I can’t keep up…..

              will check my files on a longer version brb

            • I feel like the longest version I saw was somewhere between 15-20minutes. Now, when I do go back to the vid, it just feels like there’s parts missing. I appreciate you looking for me. I haven’t been able to find anything longer than this vid you posted above.

            • the only other place I found is Axiom Amnesia / audio video gz police statements, but you have to download the DIVX player

        • @QETNO, I think it’s the full re-enactment. 15 min long. Just has an annoying commercial you gotta watch.

          • @wsi says think this is longer reenactment
            Here is link also

            http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=PX1sxARNq_c&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPX1sxARNq_c
            I watched beginning.. Two thoughts

            1) his second sentence says “called NEN because this house (points to house) left their window open & door unlocked. So how does a neighbor know someone’s door is UNLOCKED ( he doesn’t say OPEN)? And why do you call on an opened window? I do know report was unfounded but it’s an odd report to make

            2) there are no windows in front for TM to ” leisurely look into” there is a small window on the front of every second or third town home.

            Serino knew TM belonged in this neighborhood at this walk through but regardless a seasoned detective would be wondering what’s up w/ this guy?

            • @2dogsonly, in his previous NEN call it was about the pajama pants guy, and he may have seen an open window but he would only have known about the open door after the cops came and secured the house.

              Notice that he says first that TM was standing in the grass between the two poles. If you look at the poles, they’re about a feet away from the sidewalk. However, when the cop driving the car asked him again where TM was standing, GZ points “right over there” and the cop says “right in front of the car”? GZ says “yeah, in the grassy area” From the camera angle at that point, it makes it look like he was indicating the grassy area closer to the house.

              Also notice that he starts to say “he kept staring at me, looking around, to see who else was….I don’t know why he was looking” Um, could it be that TM was looking around behind him to see if it was somebody or something else GZ was STARING at possibly?????? What a dope!

            • Another thing wrong with this walk through. TM’s timeline has him reaching the mailboxes in just 13 minutes of walking at 4.4 ft/sec. arriving there at 6:42:19, or sooner if he hustled because of the rain. TM has only a 2 minute 8 second walk home from the mailboxes. So, if he was continuously walking, as GZ says, then he’d have been home by roughly 6:44:23. Or long before GZ even started his NEN call at 7:11pm.

              GZ’s “continuous motion” narrative dis-includes about 12 or so minutes he had to wait, for TM to emerge from the shelter of the mailboxes.

              Because we know TM sheltered at the mailboxes for ~12 minutes, if he’s moving when GZ sees him “he’s coming towards me”, GZ is there 12 minutes late. Too late to have seen TM at the cut through. He can only have seen TM, either at the cut through or at the mailboxes, but not in both places, if he thinks TM is continuously walking. Since it’s silly to think that GZ would miss having waited 12 minutes at the mailboxes, it’s more likely that he actually missed TM at the cut through, and only thinks TM was continuously walking, because TM emerged from the mailboxes, almost as soon as GZ arrived there at around 7:11 pm.

            • Apparently GZ doesn’t know about TM taking shelter for 12 or more minutes at the mailboxes. He thinks that TM moved continuously from the cut through at Taaffe’s and he caught up with him at the mailboxes. Not realizing that if TM had not sheltered, he would never have seen him at all, because he was only 2 minutes away from home.

              So, now let’s see, it take them only 30 seconds to drive from GZ’s house to the cut through and it’s another 15 seconds to the front gate. If Tchoupi’s analysis is correct, GZ only appears on the scene about 1 or 2 minutes before the NEN call starts and doesn’t realize that TM has been at the mailboxes already for some 12 minutes or more. This is going to completely screw up his narrative if the case goes to trial.

              So, GZ doesn’t really know where TM entered RATL. LLMpapa believes the swale by FT’s floods and should have forced TM to another cut through. But the timeline shows that TM could have easily made the front gate as well before closing. Only thing about LLMpapa’s theory is the grass in the swale shows no signs of being water stressed at the bottom, as it should if the swale floods. Nor does it seem likely that the start of a heavy rain would cause a flood so quickly. Then lastly, all of Florida is a sand bar, a very big sand bar, but a sand bar never-the-less. Sand drains pretty darned quick and is, therefore, slow to flood. Hardly a wonder then that the grass in the swale shows no signs of water stress. So, I think TM actually did use this route, because it runs close to the apartments where he could have sheltered, if the rain had caught him. It didn’t and so he kept moving. By the time it started to pour, he had an easy sprint to the mailboxes and didn’t get very wet.

              If Zimmerman is smart, he’d start planning to get one of those prized prison library jobs, now while he has a chance. (Guess I watch too much tv. 🙂

  84. Sorry, but I find that theory specious, at best. If he brought the flashlight from home he’d likely check it to see if it worked. Plus there are many sounds on the NEN tape that could be him opening glovebox, console, etc.

    Don’t get me wrong, however. I tend to believe he was called by a “tipoff man” and was not going grocery shopping. But I don’t yet know how to prove that to a jury other than by using the clubhouse video interpretations to say he never saw TM until he drove past the mail kiosk. There is also Dee Dee’s deposition/ interviews that place TM at the mail kiosk minutes earlier than GZ’s call and later false narrative placing TM by Frank Taafe’s house, but again these are hard to prove to a jury without the defense being able to introduce some “reasonable doubt” into some jury members’ minds.

    Guesswork about where he kept his flashlight is not helpful, IMO. There are better ways to convince a jury than that.

    Keep going, however! One thing this group is good at is turning over every stone to look for answers.

    • @ willis
      If you’re replying to my comment (plz use an @ since the threading breaks easily), I wasn’t necessarily thinking about hypotheses for the prosecution to present at trial, but I was thinking about my experience with flashlights. I have had any number of unreliable flashlights, that work sometimes and then don’t work other times. So I’ve often grabbed one of these flashlights, only to find out it doesn’t work at that moment, at which point i bang on it, which usually revives it, but sometimes doesn’t (or it comes on for a moment and goes by off).

      I also like to keep a flashlight in my car. But in any glovebox, pocket etc., there’s limited space, so I wouldn’t keep one of those long Mag-Lite things cops use there. I don’t know how long GZ’s flashlight is actually, whether it fits in a glovebox.?? It’s simply a question: if GZ had a flashlight (and he did) where did it come from? There seem to be only two possible answers: either he keeps it in his truck or he brought it from home. If he does keep it in his truck, well no big deal. If he doesn’t, that speaks to his intent when he left his house. I just wonder if the cops ever thought about that and asked him why he had a ‘tactical’ flashlight and where it came from.

      I am convinced though, that almost everyone is thinking about the key found near the T in the wrong light. That is, they are thinking of it as a key that just co-incidentally has a mini-flashlight attached, and i think it’s a mini-flashlight that co-incidentally has a key attached. I believe it is a ‘spare’ key to Shellie’s car. (Did they take this into evidence? Have they checked? Will they? Did GZ say what that key operates?) I think George put it in his pocket as he left the house exactly because it has the mini-flashlight on it, not because he needed the key for anything, and because he suspected his other flashlight (whether it was in his hand or in the truck at that point) might or might not work in the clutch.

      Again, the fact he had this in his possession PROVES nothing. he would just have to say, ‘well i usually have the extra key to Shellie’s car in my pocket, just in case I need to move it in the driveway or stuff like that.’ GZ can explain away a lot of the little oddities one by one. But collectively, when you add them all together, i think you get a more clear picture of what he was doing. And having a good hypothesis about what actually happened can help point to where one might find evidence to support it.

      • Yeah whonose that was my broken-thread reply. It was also a poorly though out reply by me. I get your logic now… Carry on..

  85. Does anyone have a link to the full Dr Phil episode with Mark Osterman? I have only been able to find the clips posted on his website and a couple clips on youtube but the posters are talking the whole time.

  87. @ tchoupi and amsterdam
    Have you guys established that the various clubhouse vids are in sync with each other? That is, do they all start at the same time, and the question is just what time that actually is? Because, if so, i can make a split screen Hi-Def video that shows up to four views simultaneously, which would display how the light events move between one camera position and another. (And if they don’t have the same start times, have you figured out the offsets between them, as opposed to the general offset against correct clock-time?)

  89. The docs WSI linked do contain a couple interesting bits…

    tchoupi and i both missed a couple of the 911 call assignments: most importantly JohnW6 called earlier than we thought. I’ve written a number of posts here and in forums where I accuse him of waiting an unusually long time before calling. I now apologize for my error, and retract any comments about a delay in his call to 911.

    The log of W3’s call contains all sorts of reports back from officers at the scene, not just info from her call. (It also seems to switch over to reference W18’s trauma at some point…?) But it notes, with time stamps, the officers identifying two vehicle tags. The plate numbers and names are redacted, but these would seem to be GZ’s truck and SZ’s car. At 8:32:39 they log the tag of a White Honda, and at 8:47:15 they log the tag of a Gray Honda. This suggests either that the two vehicles were not parked in the same area, or that the Gray car arrived later, and the police logged its tag after it arrived, having logged the tags of the vehicles already on the scene some 15 minutes earlier. But that wouldn’t tell us when in that interval the second car arrived, how long it sat there before police noticed it and recorded it.

    • The question still in my mind unanswered is did Shellie and / or Mark Osterman arrive in time to see/ speak with George before he was transported away?

      These late times, and the gap between them suggest that they arrived at least as early as 8:32, but out of course they could have been there much earlier, and most likely were given the time that GZ suggests Shellie was contacted, which was just as the first officer arrived more or less around 7:20.

      As for the 8:32 time, Cop writes it in a notebook, then enters it into the log later… and for all we know the car is gone by 8:32. At least now we know a bit more – I don’t doubt this is Shellie’s car and GZ’s Honda Ridgeline – I just wish we knew where they were spotted and when more precisely.

      Thanks for posting the info. There’s a lot here to dig through!

  90. obviously still scanning thru all this but here’s a first first impression.

    Starting with what is missing might be as good of a place as any to sort thru all this. There is a document on Corey’s letterhead I downloaded from this link above, the one from local TV news channel 9

    http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/9/19/new_documents_expect.html

    that is titled
    EXEMPTION LIST PURSUANT TO § 119.07(1)(E)

    and within that is one thing that struck me immediately :

    “Criminal investigative information received on a confidential or similarly restricted basis (SPD emails only)”

    which is cited as being redacted due to this case. statute:
    119.071(2)(b)

    IANAL however and will defer to those with expertise. What all could this be? My mind runs to the dramatic, such as someone who is a “confidential informant,” ie, has secretly turned state’s evidence against the defendant.

      • Excellent point, and a more likely explanation since it relates to SPD emails. I’ve not yet seen these emails in the discovery however.

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch….

        http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-19/news/os-shellie-zimmerman-docket-sounding-20120919_1_shellie-zimmerman-george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin

        Shellie Zimmerman’s lawyer asked for and got a continuance in her perjury case.

        I can imagine the deal the SAO would offer her if they even had to put it into words, which they don’t, IMO: “Look, your husband is going to prison for a long, long time. You can either play ball with us or join him in being incarcerated on a perjury charge related to a murder case, a situation where you will not likely be granted leniency.” However this presupposes that she has anything to say regarding the murder charge that would help the prosecution. I get the feeling after hearing Mark Osterman speak at some length that George is trying to keep his false narrative to himself as far as how the mechanics of it work. His statements seem coached, especially the video walk thru but I think his father and MO gave him strategies without necessarily hearing the truth from George.

  91. Here’s evidence that relates to a “new to me” witness who lives in the same townhouse block on RVC as W18, but it not W18. It’s a zerox of a photo, name, witness number and address redacted but the view is from an upstairs window of the western-most unit on RVC that backs onto the cut-thru / dog walk area. The view is partial – you can’t see the T or all of John W6’s back yard but they seem to have been able to see the sidewalk centered on where the tan bag was found and possibly a lot of the physical struggle, if they were looking out at the time.

    It’s a view of the “foot chase” or the “stumbling” part of the altercation, possibly. I can’t currently connect it to any know witness statements or 911 calls, but maybe someone else can? This looks new to me.

    new? partial view from RVC - IN DISPUTE see notes - UPDATE - WRONG, IGNORE

    previously i had been using Jeralyn of Talk Left’s map to identify witness and 911 caller locations.

    is this current? link to her map:

    jerayln witness map

    • @ willis
      I think you’re mistaken. I think all the pics are from W18’s window. Numbers 4, 5 and 7 seem to show her view of RVC, from whence W13 and Ofc. Smith would have approached. You can make out a car in the driveway of W13′ to the left side of the pics.

      In any event, the angle of view of a human observer would be significantly wider than that shown by the camera, which is determined by the focal length of the lens used and the distance from the window. the photographer has backed off enough to show the window frame. A person would likely move closer to the window.

      • damn cookie cutter houses! I think you are right. I’ll make a change to my flickr page. I didn’t see the car at first look.

        It’s ridiculous that these bad zeroxes of photos count as “discovery.”

  92. I’ve posted all the witness 12 interviews I have and a composite. I’m adding questions that beg asking for each witness at the trial. Onward to w13.

  93. Whonoze,

    The 911 timings from the most important witnesses are confirmed in the latest discovery.
    To me the most important ones are W3, W6, W11 & W18.
    It looks like you’re right about JohnW6 calling before Teresa. So, I’ll have to fix that error.
    Overall, our deductions look correct to me. I’m still fighting with the definition of “Location” in the call logs. If you look that of W18, Location gives TTL but the log states that the caller lives on RVC (as expected).

      • No I did not notice it. Of course we’re interested.

        I’m very confident that the vids are in synch. The correlation between the light events across the vids is too high to leave much doubt about it.

        The official starting point is 6:48. I’m still not comfortable with that time and will be only after I come to a reasonable explanation on what Police Wit #3 saw through her window. However, Amsterdam convinced me not to dismiss that starting time as a quick evaluation made within SPD based only on the ambulance.
        The evaluation I’ve made is based T. Smith arrival and may be wrong if my understanding of what he did is wrong. However, it would put the starting time at between 7:46:00 & 7:46:30.

  94. I’ve added a small set of photos to y flickr sets relating to what W18, “the distraught teacher” had for a vantage point, which is somewhat obvious: she had a good view of the scene from upstairs and down.

    W18downstairsview panarama

    I think one of the hand drawn “maps” is hers as well – can anyone confirm that? It seems to show the path of W13/Jon and probably ofc. Tim Smith coming from RVC as well as GZ’s migration towards the T post-shooting. I’ll add it to the set if there is a consensus that this drawing is hers. There are also two arrows on the drawing, probably one for the up stairs and one for the downstairs windows she looked out.

    On another note I’m trying to get up to speed with Tchoupi and Amsterdam on the clubhouse video topic, and would love feedback on this set relating to that subject:

    east pool combined diagram w tell tale reflection location noted

    • Light fall-off is governed by the inverse square law, which means a source dims geometrically as you move away from it. I HIGHLY doubt a porch light at 1211 TTL would show up by reflection at the distance between W11’s unit and the East Pool camera as anything but a little white dot.

      • As I understand it, the inverse square law relates mostly to how offscreen light falls onto a subject and THEN reflects to an eye or film/ sensor, etc. Light sources in the frame itself are just that – light sources bearing directly onto film and thus reducing the contrast of the lens and recording to the film/sensor retina etc as direct hits. Past a certain sensitivity they are recorded as “blown out” white spots with no detail. Only atmospheric debris cuts their intensity – dust, fog, rain, etc. Distance mostly relates to size in the frame once you get past the foreground. Witness the moon, plenty bright as seen from earth and almost always “blown out” on camera if you are shooting a night scene with a wide f/stop.

        The light in a wet dark street is similar to a light in a mirror. It carries a lot of the original power of the source.

        Having said all that, I have zero real idea what the source of what I call “the snowman” is in the east pool videos. I’m just guessing at this point since there is no good way to test any theory at this distance from the scene.

        Here is what I call “the snowman,” for anyone who cares to jump in here and give their two cents.

        east pool diagram of parts

        It’s the three stacked pools of light seemingly at the second bend of TTL visible in the east pool videos. Cars seem to drive towards it and occasionally block it from camera. I think it may be the porch lights of 1221 TTL or else John’s porch lights, both seen directly and via reflection in the wet street.

        I suppose another candidate could be that it is reflections off the Ford truck that is “always parked there.”

        Other than that, i really dunno. But if we could know it would help determine how much of TTL is in the blind spot cut from view by what I call the “constant flare” in the upper left of frame, a blind spot that may obscure the car-to-pedestrian chase that IMO (and dee dee’s) caused Trayvon to run away.

        A simple daytime photo would resolve the question. Won’t someone drive over there for me and take a few shots? (A person can dream, can’t they?)

    • I’d guess you’re right about the drawing labeled “4/14”. If so, that could be potential dynamite as it seems to show GZ walking directly to the T after the shooting, thus potentially explaining the evidence found there. I’ll admit that seems too quick-witted for GZ to realize the benefit of dropping something there. But why else would he take the path shown on that drawing (if indeed that arrow does show his path)? Ah, so much speculation, so little solid information…

      • @whonoze:
        I know what you mean about the frustration regarding not enough data. Imagine how Chris Serino felt, having to listen to George’s obvious lies but lacking a solid eyewitness to the whole episode – George killed the real “eyewitness.” (If only Serino had met Dee Dee…. or had more time to continue his investigation.)

        Re: what seems to be W18s hand drawn map:

        I think one potential (unprovable) explanation for GZ’s walk north after the shooting was to simply flee the scene. Instead he ran into w13/Jon with his gun related chatter and iPhone camera. Another possible explanation would be to “plant” the keychain flashlight but like you said he’s awfully quick to come up with that as an alibi, if it is indeed the case. And of course even w18 can’t say he went there for the purpose of planting the keychain flashlight. She just saw him walk that way for whatever reason. The innocent explanation is that GZ saw W13/Jon and went to meet him, although that sounds odd to me, given that this is a good way to get yourself shot by a cop by mistake.

        • W18 also said he looked around with his hand above his eyes, “bladed”, ie like peering into the distance. Maybe trying to see if the police were here yet?

          I do not believe the big flashlight is not GZ’s
          1) he was banging one to get it going: the little one was working so can’t have been that one
          2) can’t see him getting about with just a keychain toy light; one witness said he’s in the habit of driving about with his headlights off but checking between the buildings with a torch..
          3) no witness had reason to put down (and therefore lose) their vluable flashlight.

    • Willi, I’m working on fixing my document based on the latest discovery. I have to swap W6’s & W19’s 911 call times and get through all the implications. To my sense there isn’t much implication but I have to understand that.

      Wit #3 time was correct. So, she really saw police at 7:41 from her front bedroom. It can only be T. Smith.
      What I’m wondering now is what she meant by “It’s behind the house […] It’s not the front entrance”. I always thought she meant T. Smith was at her front porch. But if she is able to see vehicles at the front gate from her front room then she may have meant that the cars should not stay by the clubhouse.
      Assuming the official time for the vids is 6:48, then there were 2 cars coming in at about the correct time for Wit 3 to see. But, both turned left to go west on RVC. There is 0 indication that any of those cars spent time by the north entrance.

      So, I’m seriously entertaining the 6:48 but I’m not 100% satisfy with it as the vehicle that seems to have taken the most logical route that would fit T. Smith & Wit 3 stories comes in 1min & 46sec too late.

      I’m hoping for additional datapoints, I mean the arrival times of LEOs Ayala & Raimondo (at least) will help determining at what time the vids really start.

      • Somehow I had gotten the early impression that T Smith responded to an address on RVC. Not sure now where and how that got into my head but I need to go back and sort it out. Thanks for the clues.

        W 18 has a drawing that I may have gotten that idea from – she has two lines rounding the bend into the T area from the direction of RVC. My mind works in visuals I think.

      • When the officer turns left on RVC, maybe he creates a light event from W18’s and W20’s side of RVC visible on the clubhouse/pool vids. Just a thought.

      • I made a mistake in my post above. The two vehicles turned right to go west and not left as I wrote. The point is that if T. Smith was in one of those cars, he was going in the wrong direction to respond to Wit 3 and was taking the long road to respond to 2821 RVC.
        I can’t exclude that possibility though. Indeed, he was initially responding to 1111 RVC (the clubhouse) and may have got used to turn right on RVC from previous calls from our friend George.

        • I have thought that all along…I am convinced that Smith turned right on RVC…I even noticed small red flashing lights on the door of front entrance at 29.11 of video.

          • And to further confirm my thoughts on that…I noticed that Smith said to dispatch something to the effect that he is going around “back”.

            So if Smith did arrive when I thought he did It also seems backs up my theory that GZ moving when he was on the call with NEN and the sounds we hear are gear sounds of his truck…..JMO

  95. First responder ofc. T. Smith arrived via RVC, did he not? What might be the first cop car to head down TTL? Is this known and if so how logged? It seems like there may not be a “sync” point known that can link picture to audio, exactly.

    FWIW, GZ says something during the video walk thru “re-enactment” that stuck in my mind. He’s pushing his false narrative at the time, but he tells investigators “I called the non emergency line, and then when i got thru i parked at the clubhouse…” It seems to have taken him around 30 seconds or longer to get to a human on the other end of the line. Did he have that amount of time to expend just driving from Frank Taafe’s house to the clubhouse parking lot? Seems kinda short to me. If on the other hand we take that connection time to be after he passes the mail kiosk, and while he’s making his U turn, etc he’s got the time. It takes him at least ten seconds to negotiate the first turn in TTL, and then another ten to disappear into the “bling spot” behind the “constant flare.” There’s around ten more seconds until his car reappears, seemingly making a U-turn and then more as the “constant flare” blooms large at the top left of the east poolhouse video. Plenty of time there to call and get past the automated whatever (press one for english, etc) to reach a human.

    If he is mixing fact and fiction in the way I think he might be, he’s giving a sequence to events that mean he (first) saw TM by the mail kiosk, immediately called the NEN line, maneuvered his car into a position on TTL “at the clubhouse” meaning where he marked the map – facing west on TTL almost at the corner itself, having made his U turn down by 1221 TTL as seen in the clubhouse video, then the connection with Sean began after he had parked his car. This is rank speculation but makes a lot of sense to me as a possible timing sequence to try as a guesswork sync point for picture and audio.

    • i really don’t understand the clubhouse lights and although i appreciate all the hard work put in here it’s far to complex for my simple little brain to comprehend, so i just briefly peruse the discussion and then leave it up to you guys. But it is of the belief that the car lights show that George was ahead of Trayvon and then did a u-turn to wait and watch, is that correct? I always thought that he was in front of Trayvon at one point (he’s coming to check me out), and was then creeping slowly behind him because he was trying to keep on eye on him. And DeeDee says the guy was following him in his car.

      So how do you reconcile DeeDees comments of being followed in the car and the u-turn evidence. And I don’t understand why he would tell the police he parked on the left, which would mean he was creeping up behind this kid on the wrong side of the road shining his lights on him if he had simply driven past the kid and done a u-turn to watch as the kid approached him. If he waited for Trayvon to pass him, as he has said at the clubhouse, then reverses out and slowly follows him up the wrong side of the road, that is far worse i would say, so why would he lie about it.

      Thanks

      • replying to myself again…lol..i’m not crazy just forgot to add….

        remember that Dee Dee didn’t tell her story for some time after the event, so when she says Trayvon was waiting by the mailboxes perhaps she presumed the mailboxes because she has heard so much about them, maybe he took shelter earlier and when he passed zimm the first time just went straight past the sport centre and cut straight across to the left of the road. Zim said Tray disapeared around the corner and then they asked him to follow blah blah blah, but perhaps Zim’s car was still running and as soon as Tray passed him he was already reversing out and not far behind Trayvon as he walked towards the cut off….talking to non-emergency as he drove slowly, then “shit, he’s running”, stops the car (was only going slow anyway) and jumps out.

        Where he says he got out of the car was a little way back from the cut off. I’d say that is how close he was tailing Trayvon from. I think that when trayvon hit the path that cuts through he started running from there to lose the guy in the car as cars can’t drive through there (it’s common sense to me that he wouldn’t start running earlier as the car can just speed up and follow, he would have ran as soon as he hit the section the car couldn’t navigate), and i’d say zimmerman stopped exactly where he was and jumped out immediately. If he stopped the car (he would have been creeping slow as) immediately then not only was he following this kid in his car but he was doing it on the wrong side of the road which has certainly got to freak you out if you are the one being followed. I really don’t think he took the time to pull over to the side of the road or he would have pulled over to the right, he just stopped where he was, already on the left.

        • Jo:
          I would guess that the only ‘following in his car’ GZ did was making a last U-turn from facing West toward the mailboxes to facing East toward the ‘T’ after Trayvon walked past him. Based on all the timings established by the NEN call and the security vids, GZ pretty much had to be parked on TTL looking at TM under the mail awning, when he made his phone call. Nothing GZ said in the ‘re-enactment’ about Trayvon’s movements can be believed. He would have had to assume the police knew where his truck had been parked, so he would have had to concoct his story so it wound up where it indeed was, but of course he’s almost certainly lying about how it got there.

          DeeDee wasn’t there, of course, so how she translates the action is 3rd hand: her version of what Trayvon told her. And she consistently stretches things to frame Zimmerman in the worst possible light. While we can guess the overall thrust of her account is more-or-less accurate, it would be a mistake to take anything she says too literally.

          I assume the reason GZ parked on the wrong side of the street is it allowed his headlights to illuminate the path to the ‘T’, which would have been cut off by the corner of 1211 TTL had he parked on the right side.

          • I agree with whonoze, tchoupi and many others here, Jo.

            The car-to-pedestrian chase was short and slow-motion, but it must have been quite frightening to Trayvon. And I agree that the clubhouse videos are not jury-friendly evidence on the surface, and the discussion surrounding them is often hard to follow. But don’t worry – this is all leading to a place where it will sound logical once we sort out the last kinks between ourselves.

            And, even if we dont – get this: Ignoring the clubhouse videos, the car-to-pedestrian chase can still be proven to have taken place IN COURT by comparing the NEN call recording’s timing, and GZ’s inconsistent, contradictory statements. The ONE piece of outside evidence that can be supposedly challenged here is the idea that TM was at the mail kiosk as told by Dee Dee, but even that (which I find totally credible) is supported by GZ’s own words on the call recording – “is he near the clubhouse now?/ yeah, now he’s coming towards me” If, by this GZ meant TM was closer to the clubhouse than he was to any other building, then the state wouldn’t even need to use Dee Dee for that point at all. I think they should, however but she’s merely SUPPORTING the idea of the chase, not presenting it solo.

            This specific event, the car-to-pedestrian chase that made TM run when he got close to the cut thru path is what GZ lies about most clearly and he did it IMO because he knows it looks very bad as far as answering who the agresor was and who was acting with a “depraved mind” and all. If you mentally place his car where he himself marked on a map (before quickly amending his tale and relating the “he doubled back to circle me” BS) not only does the timing finally make sense (GZ’s competing versions don’t work with the laws of physics), it also helps RESOLVE the contradictory things he seems to be saying. When at last GZ was played the NEN call recording, he repeatedly confirms that he was “At the clubhouse” when he describes TM passing him. And in fact, he was “At the clubhouse,” just not where he claims he was. Instead he was at the first corner of TTL.

            The clubhouse video seems to confirm or corroborate, anyway, the fact that he passed the mail kiosk slow, then went down by the cut thru and made a U turn. We can’t see how close he crept back towards the corner but deductive reasoning tells us that if he had hung back all the way by the cut thru, Trayvon would have had to walk very fast to pass him, and very very slow to walk away before he ran, which is counter-intuitive. If he walked at a constant speed and was able to pass the “final” cut thru postion then by the time GZ is heard saying sh*t, he’s running Trayvon would have been so far away GZ probably wouldn’t have been able to see him. I call this the “long tail” of the here he comes/ there he goes tale we hear on the recording. Trayvon walked towards GZ for around 30 seconds and away for 30 more before he ran. Simple logic tells us George was somewhere roughly in the middle of this path.

            On the video, should the prosecution try to present it at trial, the u turn itself is proof that GZ is pushing a false narrative. Added to this is the likely visual proof that he never parked in the clubhouse – (the timing already alone proves this is a lie) and that he trolled the mail kiosk moving quite slow, possibly even stopping dead still for ten seconds or so.

            The reason we are still beating this dead horse here is that clubhouse videos are grainy, blurry and hard to decipher but they are very good at showing the movements regarding the initial activity, close to the part of the case that the prosecution could easily present using ONLY George’s own words to destroy his credibilty. It’s not George vs dee dee, or George vs a “thug travon” or George vs a mob that called for arrest, etc. It’s George proving himself a liar, period simply by virtue of the cops giving him enough rope and letting him run his mouth off like a typical liar who can’t keep his story straight.

            I think it’s like the desire of vampire hunters in classic horror – we, the villagers (who are tired of all the BS) want to not only nail this monster’s coffin shut, we want to encase it in cement and make sure he’s wrapped in battleship chains to boot after driving the stake thru it’s heart. Because the “never parked at the clubhouse lot” also tends to lead to the potentially gut-chilling idea that he never even SAW Trayvon until he drove past the mail kiosk. Yes, the dreaded “conspiracy theory” but this time it’s probably true. I doubt the prosecution will go there, however and that means someone is going to escape justice – his tipoff person, if they exist and that’s also like a horror flick – some evil always survives in the end so there’s wiggle room for a sequel.

            Sorry for the lengthy post.

            • thanks willis, i think that makes more sense to me. I still can’t believe there has been no confirmation of where his car actually was. Maybe if the dash cams are ever released it will sort that out. I still don’t know how you guys had the patience to analyse those lights, it amazes me how many brilliant minds are here to help people like me understand it all.

            • include me out of any kudos for looking at clubhouse videos…. I threw up my hands in the air after an initial look, and waited for others to take the lead on that front. But I’m trying to join in at this late date. Thcoupi deserves the thanks on that one, and on quite a few other issues as well. AMsterdam and I both worked on the timing of the moves from clubhouse to cut thru when we were posting at Daily Kos months ago, and along with others doing similar work elsewhere all came to a general consensus about the car-to-pedestrian chase slowly and surel as supporting evidence arose. Before we all heard what GZ told the SPD ( his false narrative) this route and manner was already the simplest way to account for the timing of the NEN call recording. George’s lies then had to be combatted in general for two months following, as people were forced to try to give him the benefit of doubt as a consensus, I’d say but on the very day I first heard George’s “doubled back/ circled my car baloney” I knew from that moment on his credibility would be utterly destroyed in court by simple logic.

              The location of the body is something I am proud to say I had a contribution of sorts with, after someone on kos noticed the yellow tarp showing up in a local news video. This again was long before we heard GZ’s statements to SPD or knew his whereabouts. His surrogates were out flacking for him in the media, claiming what he told them, and SPD – that he was struck in the nose and fell to the ground while walking back to his truck. Frank Taafe showed a local TV news reporter that the fight took place “according to eyewitnesses” where the keychain flashlight was found. GZ’s father insisted George was knocked directly to the ground, and it was only until we heard and saw GZ spontaneously invent and insert his pathetic “stumbling” routine that he ever had a prayer of explaining that he was “returning to(wards) his truck” ever, His story here is “wafer thin” but at least this part is physically possible. His stories (plural, inconsistent and contradictory) about his moves from clubhouse to cut thru are simply not possible.

              To me, that’s where the case stands at present. He’s got zero credibility but the proof surrounding the physical altercation itself is less of a complete slam dunk than the lead-up to it. I think a jury will follow the prosecution’s lead however in saying the basic story is that GZ profiled, pursued, confronted and shot the teen in an illegal fashion with a depraved mind and that they will gain a M2 conviction. I don’t see a jury having much sympathy for him in general, and his credibility like I said is nil and void even before one cares to examine his shady underbelly of priors, and domestic abuse and possible statutory rape, etc and then there is of course the bail and passport issues… sheesh. If this is a case where people want to “pile it on,” the prosecution has a line of dumptrucks that look like the one leaving Ground Zero in Tribeca after 9/11. It’s endless, and toxic to boot. And if the defense tries in court to smear Trayvon with the “thug” routine, it will backfire completely on its own before the door is even opened to assault GZ’s character.

              I don’t think MOM/GZ will win, or maybe even try for a SYG immunity hearing or a self defense pretrial hearing either. I have my doubts that they will even go to trial at all, but GZ’s personality and the fact that this trial is taking place in Florida means anything is possible. I did not follow Casey Anthony at all, but those who did assure me that yes, anything is possible. But I have faith that George will get a fair trial ( I miss Judge Lester) and a spirited defense. (A lot of the GZ supporters won’t even say that much. ) And I am all but certain that he will be convicted – only a total perversion of logic and justice and an incompetent performance by the prosecution will free him.

              What do others see as “the big picture” at the present? We all get lost in the details happily here, and rightfully so sometimes but I’d be curious to hear from a few of y’all.

            • Big picture still coming into focus. But it’s M2.

              21st century self-defense even for police is stuff like pepper spray, mace, taser, or maybe martial arts. I know nothing about guns. But to me guns are offensive weapons. I suppose a real gun nut might fantasize about putting non-exploding bullets into extremities like shoulder, leg, hands. But GZ used a hollow point right into the heart at close range. That’s not defensive. It is certain death of the opponent. It’s what Mark David Chapman did to John Lennon – tore him up – made sure Lennon couldn’t be saved. Chapman continues to be denied bond. I think the bullet GZ used and the location and distance was criminal in the context of this case.

      • Jo,
        GZ was trying to hide the fact, that he had followed Trayvon in his car to TTL. In his first interview he said “I pulled over to the side and called nen. He disappeared between two house, then came back and circled my car and disappeared again”.

        Then Singleton pulls out a map, and his story changes to ” I pulled over at the clubhouse”. Here Singleton asks him if Trayvon had passed him, and he says yes.
        It sounds like GZ is describing that he could see Trayvon disapearing in the cut-through, from his position near the clubhouse on RVC, because Singleton says ” you could see that from here?”.

        The following day, during the re-enactment when parked at the spot in front of the clubhouse, he realizes that he could not have seen Trayvon taking that path from that spot, and he uses his “I lost visual and the dispatcher wanted to know where he was”‘ to explain why he ended up on TTL.

        The clubhouse videos may help proof that GZ was at least following Trayvon, or he got a tip, and left his house with his gun, looking for Trayvon.

        What I understand from some legal experts, it would make GZ the agressor, and the standard for self defense, would change to a higher standard.

  96. DMS-7 seems to be the evidence tag given to TM’s cell phone in the 262 page .pfd about DNA testing of various items of evidence. Has anyone figured out what if anything FDLE found on the cell phone? Some have wondered if TM may have hit GZ on the head with it.

    I’m not any good at making head or tails of forensic evidence like this, but I am curious.

    • Looks like only LP-C (latent prints) was requested as a test on the phone, not DNA tests.
      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/documents-2/court-documents/discovery-documents-part-1-183-pages-5152012/
      Page 119 of the previous discovery says that they returned the phone to Sanford with the bag unopened per information obtained from special agent supervisor David Lee. Not clear what this “information” is except the letter was dated march 20, about the same time it was widely reported that DeeDee had been talking to TM on the phone that night.
      http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_martin-family-cell-phone-benjamin-crump?_s=PM:JUSTICE
      Maybe the fingerprinting was only to identify that TM was carrying the phone, but they didn’t do tests on it because the family wanted to keep all of his other information on the phone private?

      • I’d heard a rumor/ theory that the fingerprint tests were cancelled/ delayed so that they wouldn’t mess up the DNA tests. The idea is that fingerprint tests contaminate or ruin DNA samples, so it’s kinda one or the other in a plastic item like a cell phone. I have no idea if this it true or the case here, but it’s just another possibility I was hoping we’d finally found out about. What you are telling me is something Im going to “take away” as “it’s still a big mystery until an expert explains it better.” But the idea of getting the phone back to look for texts and calls from Dee Dee seems like a strong contender for most likely occurrence. If whaat i heard is true, then after the fingerprint tests were done it’s deemed unlikely to be able to pull DNA from it. That theory I’ll call “seems as likely as any at this point but it makes narrative sense, anyway. ”

        I’m no CSI Miami fan…. this stuff is greek to me.

        • @Wiliis: “it’s still a big mystery until an expert explains it better.”

          LOL, sorry I’m not an expert, but my two cents is that you can’t lift a print and take a swab for DNA testing of the same spot. On both cases you’re physically removing something off of the surface to perform the separate tests.

          Since the phone was the ONLY thing they requested prints on (blood and DNA tests were done on the gun and holster) makes me think that it was not initially considered a “weapon”. Other than that, who knows really at this point why there was a delay. I also wonder who and how the police handled the phone right after the shooting too. Did they bag it immediately or fuss with/contaminate it while determining it had a dead battery? Yep, gonna put this one in the “mystery” pile for now.

  97. Orlando sentinel reports that it will enter Mark Osterman’s “book” and tv appearances into evidence.

    “De la Rionda also yesterday filed a new evidence list – his eighth. It shows that a book and television appearance by Zimmerman’s self-proclaimed best friend, former Seminole County deputy Mark Osterman, are now officially part of the case prosecutors are building against Zimmerman.”

    I’d like to see that evidence list. That should be an index of sorts the next round of discovery, although previous announcements never quite seem to fully match the actual documents released IMO.

    • @WIllis, “Orlando sentinel reports that it will enter Mark Osterman’s “book” and tv appearances into evidence.” Thanks! If they haven’t already done so, a number of people (Ostermans, GZ and family, O’Mara, the publisher, other Amazon book resellers, treepers) are doing this……

    • I really don’t want to see such an important case boil down to gossiper’s and grifter’s ability to engage a publishing house. I actually don’t see where Osterman, his wife, or their Odessa Girl have added anything of use that moves the case forward. To me, they are mere distractions.

      Glad their promo is a FAIL! 🙂

      • Yes, the book was a non-starter. Even the treepers don’t like it and were given excerpts for free. I wonder if the ghost writer was wise enough to get paid up front. The vanity publishing house (run by a complete arse-hole) will only make very minor fees for printing on-demand less than a thousand copies or so. Might be a collector’s item someday… nah. Even that is ruined by the printed-on-demand aspect.

        At the start of the “Peter Pan” money raising scheme, George and company probably were bowled over at the donations, and it appears they got greedy fast and saw stars in their eyes. George has a THICK head but I’m guessing that by now it’s all starting to sink in somewhat, at least in some small ways that his future may not be as bright as he once imagined.

        I think getting the GPS device locked onto his ankle may have been his biggest wake up call of all, even more so than having his bail revoked. At that moment, when he learned his conditions of parole were to have a monitoring device he had set up a future for himself that came crashing down – he had a hidden passport and a large amount of hidden money at his disposal, but his trip to Peru or wherever was suddenly off the calendar. He had means, motive and ALMOST the opportunity…

        There may have been one other significant wake up call – when he was played the NEN call recording for the first time. Osterman claims he threw up during that interview.

    • O’Mara says in response to the Osterman’s book/TV spot entry into evidence:
      “We will be able to respond to the six, seven, eight different renditions of the story, how and why there are different statements,” O’Mara said. “The jury is going to believe what the jury is going to believe.”
      Guess he’s realized “you can’t fix stupid” (quoting LLMPapa’s videos). Somebody give this man a chair, he sounds tired….
      http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/21/4277137/george-zimmermans-friends-book.html

      • I liked this part, where up is down and black is white:

        “Although he questioned whether Osterman’s memory is accurate, O’Mara admitted that between Zimmerman’s various interviews to police, his father and brother’s accounts to the press and now Osterman’s, there are several versions of what happened that night, but he characterized the discrepancies as a surmountable obstacle. If everyone’s story was exactly the same, O’Mara said, then it would smack of a lie.”

        Read more here: http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/21/4277137/george-zimmermans-friends-book.html#storylink=cpy

        So remember that, folks. One version of a story told consistently several times proves it’s a lie!?!?

  98. tchoupi and amsterdam:

    Here is a link to DL the vid I made of the security cam videos in split screen. I zoomed in on each image somewhat to the relevant areas. I haven’t time stamped it. I can make another version with a clock once you settle on a correct time.
    [video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvid2.mp4" /]
    Let me know when you’ve DL’ed it, so i can take it out of the Dropbox.

    Ofc. Smith’s police report indicates he entered The Retreat from the North Gate and drove to 1231 TTL, (e.g. W3’s). He paused there in his car seeing nothing. When W3 describes seeing him, I believe she is describing seeing him in the car, not on foot. At that point, receiving the input from different 911 operators, including presumably the one talking to W3, the dispatcher told Smith to drive around to 1851 RVC. When he got there he parked, and left the cruiser for the first time to proceed on foot. Shortly, he was informed that the incident was between the rows of buildings, so he headed North, turned left on the cut through sidewalk, and made his way to where Zimmerman and W13 were standing. Since he supposedly entered The Retreat at 7:17:17 there should be a light event of him passing the mailboxes and turning left on the curve of TTL shortly after that time. Since he paused in front of W3’s, it’s hard to know when she spotted him in terms of his path: he could have been rounding the bend by the big white pickup that isn’t George’s, or he could have already been paused there before she looked out…

    • Whonoze –

      This is exactly how I envision/interpret what went down at that juncture. We could both be wrong, but that’s how I’m reading it.

    • Thanks Whonoze. That’s great.
      Thanks to Amsterdam, I’ve been doing what I’ve should have done month ago that is to give more consideration to the official time.
      However, the latest discovery released yesterday is just reinforcing what you’re saying that is that T. Smith drove from the north entrance to 1231 TTL. So, at this point, I tend to keep my initial conclusion that is that the official time is a rough estimate.
      That said, I also try to get more time from LEO’s logs that I may be able to correlate with the vids. Any help is welcome.

      Thanks again

      • tchoupi,whonoze,jay,wsi,nlme, princess6, and everyone working tirelessly on this case, you probably know this but just in case it helps, according to the Orlando Sentinel, (yesterday) the County time (clocks) differed from the SPD time: Prosecutors today released time-stamped dispatch records, showing to the second when Zimmerman called police and when that gunshot was heard in the background of a 911 call by a neighbor.

        They differ slightly from a timeline prepared by Sanford police and released several months ago. For example, the county dispatch records show that Zimmerman reported that Trayvon was running at 19:11:59, a minute 20 seconds before Sanford police indicated he reported that.

        But the two sources differ by only 13 seconds on when the gunshot can be heard: Sanford police say it was at 19:17:20 vs. 19:17:07 for the county.
        http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-09-19/news/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-new-20120919_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-cell-phone-records/2
        I cant tell if your work already takes this into account- it’s so above my pay grade!, This does help explain the almost two minute problem, and I hope it helpsI

        • bgseq:
          That story is utter BS. Rene Stutzman still can’t figure out how these police logs work. The two sets of records show the same times, which are the times the operator logged the events, not the time they occurred. W11’s call began at 7:16;11. The operator didn’t type the first summary of W11s report and hit return until 7;16:35. The shot occurred at 7:16:56. It took 11 seconds for the operator to type “shot fired” and hit the return key, logging it at 7:17:07.

          • whonoze- thank you for explaining that. it’s a bit scarey that Ms. Stuzman doesnt research better- so mant news outlets rely on that paper- so the dis-information is exponential.

            • I take anything she says/writes with a grain of salt considering she still likes to use the GZ had a broken nose line.

      • Hi Tchoupi,
        I think you are right that the official time is a rough estimate. I am leaning toward a time between 47:20 and 47:50.
        There are a couple of reasons why I think Ayala is the one driving down TTL.
        1. The car is driving directly from the from the front entrance onto TTL. The car uses its emergency lights. Ayala received an upgrade about the situation and the TTL address before he arrived at the complex.
        2. If it was Smith, where is Ayala’s car?
        3. Smith arrived at the complex at 19:17:11. I think that may have been before the status was upgraded, so I wouldn’t expect him to have his emergency lights on.

        It is unclear where W3 saw him, it sounds like he was right in front of her house, but the only version I have of her 911 call, has an edit right where around the time of the edit.

        Are we sure Smith could not have entered through the back entrance?
        Smith was the ofc. responding to the 2 calls made by GZ earlier that year, he may have headed towards GZ.

        I think our best bet, is Raimondo. We know which way he went and at what time he got there. We also know, Raimondo was the first ofc. to look at Trayvon and to begin cpr.
        W18 has a complete breakdown when they turn Trayvon around and begin CPR.

        The 6:48 time does not match up with the audio from w18’s breakdown. The edited
        version shows about a 50 sec difference. Jay gave me a link to a nice unedited version of w18.
        There are some nice datapoints in the new evidence, especially for Raimondo. I will move the clock and the audio with the video tomorrow.

        If you have some ideas you want to test, let me know.

        • Amsterdam,

          Check this: http://i.imgur.com/2Bw1I.png.
          It shows all the time logs I could find for Smith, Ayala & Raimondo.
          I’m also working on understand the path taken by those three.

          Check this too: http://i.imgur.com/ssTty.png
          This is an evaluation of the view range from Wit #3 front room. The chances that she could

          I have to correct you on a few points.
          1) The car that went straight south on TTL was not going fast. It took ~2x the time of other vehicles taking the same route to go from the gate to the mailboxes. It was actually slow enough to for the EPH camera to catch its red light on top of the usual headlight beam.
          2) Ayala was 2-3 minutes behind Smith. He possible learned before arriving that 1231 TTL is not the address to go to.

          I have to say that the latest discovery reinforced my conviction that LEO Smith is the one driving south on TTL from the north gate.
          1) LEO Smith has 2 ARVs. The 1st one is at 7:17:11 in response to GZ’s NEN call. The 2nd one is at 7:17:40, 4sec after his DIS to Wit3 911 call that happened at 7:17:36.
          2) Wit #3 call time is definitely confirmed. (7:16:41). So, when she sees police it is 7:17:41. This is exactly when LEO Smith logs ARV in her own 911 call thread.

          I still consider your idea. I agree with you that the video has to start earlier than 6:48. I’ll wait for your updated video to see what it gives. Just one recommendation: Avoid having GZ driving east on TTL while telling dispatcher Sean that the suspect is coming to check him out.

          • I think you are right about Smith. I was convinced I had read that Ayala responded to TTL. That’s one thing I have learned, keep going back and check stuff again. I am trying to get a match with w3’s sighting, and w18 reporting Raimondo beginning CPR. Let me know which car you think is Raimondo’s. I’m thinking the 34:04 at the north gate. I think I’ll try starting the nen call later.

    • I was wrong about the address where Smith stopped and left his car, which I had tried to pull from memory (DOH!). I checked his written report, and the correct address is 2821 RVC, which is Teresa W19’s unit. This is the ‘wrong’ end of the building, so he had to walk up past 4 units before reaching the cut-through sidewalk and getting to the ‘dog walk.’ He had to have gone South down TTL before turning North on RVC, or W3 could not have seen him.

    • Thanks Whonoze,
      I am downloading it right now. It should be done in a about 30 minutes.
      I dont’t have time tonight, but I will look at it tomorrow.

  99. disclaimer: just backreading at Nuthouse I found a poster called Aussie. Just saying, that is NOT ME. (Also their avatar is a white cat, mine is black).

    Just got a notice in yesterday’s mail, being called for jury service. I don’t think we have any cases this interesting going around here, but I think they’d disqualify me from this one, even if I lived in the right place.

      • From what I can decipher, wordpress sucks from a user’s prospective. I don’t use it. I can only speak for myself, but I recognized your aussiekay/aussie postings and assumed they are one and the same on this site. Welcome back!

        (If I’m wrong, feel free to clarify.)

    • Hey aussie, I lurk over at the Nuthouse sometimes, but I would have figured it wasn’t you if that aussie is anything like the other posters there. Although they do get a few people on there who try to challenge their pro-GZ position, but they’re considered trolls and are quickly deleted, except for the few they consider “amusing to the regulars” like itsallaboutmeash. Personally, I would NEVER post at the Nuthouse either. First of all, it’s useless, and second, the moderator/admins there are creepy (among other reasons) in that they keep track of people’s locations and IP addresses, and probably any other information linked to accounts used to log in.

  100. @Screaming Jay –

    I can’t find the post I wanted to respond to, but I remember what you made me think about. Yes Big Bernie D got one or more witnesses to admit that Zimmerman is the guy on top (described by W3 as the white tee-shirt guy). More will come.

    It’s just a common sense thing that a black hoodie can appear white, but it can’t appear like it’s a tee-shirt! Patterns are the key here. Zimmerman’s jacket is the only thing exhibiting a pattern. Ironically, excluding one of the visible colors of his jacket leaves you with what looks like wife-beater style tee-shirt.

    • Now that I’m studying w13 (husband), I’m revisiting w12 (wife). She was very tentative at first about what she saw before the shot. That was that she saw nothing. But w13 comes out very strong that she said to him, “There’s two guys fighting.” I think this made an opening for Bernie to work on her.

      At trial I would ask both of them:
      “Did you see fighting before the gunshot?”
      “Did you see GZ (or the larger man) on top before the gunshot?”
      “Did you see GZ hunched over the other before the gunshot?”
      “Did you see GZ standing before the gunshot?”

      Then I would ask the last three questions for after the gunshot.

    • BIts and pieces of this tak by Charles Blow are starting to emerge in the internets.

      here’s a one minute clip with Blow teeing off about Travon’s “grill” tooth bling as “proof” of his thug-ness.

      Help me find more! He’s entertaining and has a unique perspective.

  102. Index of the next round (round 8) of discovery posted to court website,

    Click to access State’s%208th%20Supplemental%20Discovery.pdf

    Includes Osterman book and TV appearances.

    Also other things, including these mysterious bits of info:

    Siewart’s entire FDLE file (who is he?)
    additional audio phone with SCSO air care (SFD) [sic? or is that SPD? and what is air care?]

    and “Defendant’s statements to Ostermans (Mark and Sondra)

    [what statements? is this jail calls, or something recorded thru a search warrant, or what?]

    As always it’s like xmas presents: you can only shake the box and wonder what’s really inside until the day comes when we get to open them.

    I think it’s the Miami herald that already has a story about how Osterman’s “book” claims GZ told him TM had his hand on the gun during the struggle.

    • answering my own questions: Siewart is likely firearms expert Amy Siewart, and “air care” may be related to the county’s helicopter that’s operated out of the sheriff’s dept (aerial photos?) but that’s a guess.

    • Amy L. Siewert is the Firearms tech at the FDLE crime lab. She did the ballistics tests on GZ’s gun, mapped the bullet holes in TM’s clothing, tested it for gunpowder residue etc. I would guess she was responsible for determining the range at which the shot was fired.

    • @Willis, yes the most curious thing about that 8th discovery list is the “Defendant’s statements to the Ostermans” I don’t think they ever talked to GZ while in jail. In the book, they did write about what GZ said to them. And remember in the Dr. Phil interview, it was all “GZ told me this and he told me that”. The state might take those excerpts out, compile them, and call them statements to the Ostermans.

      • Wouldn’t that be “hearsay” and hence inadmissible?

        I thought perhaps it might be things Mark Osterman said while accompanying George to the “cop shop” for interviews but Sondra O. was not there for those “Statements to the defendant.”

        They were probably asked however in media appearances “what would you say to George now?” type questions. I didn’t watch Dr Phil or the Fox local affiliate interview. Was Sondra on Fox? Maybe that is it? But those are “witness statements to the defendant” so that’s getting it backwards.

        I’ve had a sneaking suspicion for a long time that Mark Osterman wore a wire for the prosecution. I know that sounds crazy in the wake of his book and all, but I can’t help wondering what I would do were I in the prosecution’s place. I’d lean on Osterman HARD about his role in moving the Honda Ridgeline from the scene, and try to flip him to turn state’s evidence in exchange for not filing criminal charges of tampering with evidence – a charge that may or may not stick but it would probably be enough to cost him his air marshall job one way or the other. And I wouldn’t put it past Osterman to agree, and then to “wink” at George and show him the hidden device, either. They both think they are smarter than the truth. (and then go ahead and “screw the pooch” anyway and say something that could be used in court against him.)

        It would explain their “falling out” and also Ostertman’s desire to publish a book as a mea culpa.

        Along with the idea of a “tipoff man (or woman)” I realize I’m straying into conspiracy theory territory but i have to report my hunches as such. In this case we’ve seen almost anything is possible.

        • @Willis, you asked “Wouldn’t that be “hearsay” and hence inadmissible?”
          Based on the Francis Robles’ Miami Herald article quote below, I guess you’re right, they can’t use book excerpts directly. But I guess they can enter it into evidence and call MO to the stand, slap it down in front of him and say “What the heck do you mean by X, Y and Z?”
          ********
          http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/09/21/4277137/george-zimmermans-friends-book.html#storylink=cpy
          Although second-hand quotes are generally inadmissible in court, Jackson said this is a type of citation that would be exempt from the hearsay rule.

          “The state would be precluded from directly using any excerpts from the book, as the words on the pages are hearsay, but the Ostermans could be subpoenaed to testify against him to his detriment if Zimmerman embellished, added or changed facts in the version he gave to them,” said Miami Beach criminal-defense attorney Michael Grieco, who has been following the case. “Any inconsistencies amongst the numerous statements Zimmerman has given will be used against him and his credibility.

          “Zimmerman’s credibility is the key to his affirmative defense.”

        • @Willis, I also just had a curious thought. Since MO is in law enforcement, I wonder if things that people say to him would be treated differently than if he was just average Joe like Sondra. That is, would what GZ say to him be considered “statements”, like if he were giving a statement to other cops. That is, by virtue of his job, could they require or consider what he says more like an official “report” than just a witness statement?

          BTW, you say you lean hard on MO about moving the Ridgeline. Just curious, what would you have expected to find out about the truck other than its position?

          • @WSI :
            If I were the SPD, I would care most about where the truck was, which way it was facing, and only last what was in it – an open beer, for instance or a joint in the ashtray, etc. Cops love to find that sort of thing since it gives them the okay to search inside, not that they wouldn’t have goten permission anyway in a case like this.

            Others have wondered what money GZ had to spend at Target, if any.

            MO moving the car or helping to move the car might be shown thru fingerprints, has the car been secured. There could be TWO open beers in the front seat, complete with DNA, who knows. It’s not really possible to know, absent a confession so we have to let it go.

            The point about leaning on MO in reference to moving the Ridgeline is just leverage to get him to “flip.” It’s a nutty theory I admit, but stranger things have happened.

  105. Have you noticed Wit #3’s drawing. Not only she places the scuffle south of a concrete block but she also places it between her unit and John’s.
    She called at 7:16:41 after locking herself in the opposite room. So, she must have been an early witness. I mean, she probably saw it before JohnW6. This is reinforced by the fact that the position of TM & GZ and their location on the grass is closer to what John initially saw when he looked out from his back porch.
    Where I’m going is that it looks like the scuffle may have started 20 feet south from where it ended.
    I also noticed that W03 places the two antagonists further south from where JohnW6 does, and himself places it south from where the body is found. It gives a general impression of a south to north dynamic.
    We should also not forget the cellphone & tactical flashlight that were found south from the body.
    All that make GZ’s story even more difficult to reconcile with witness statements.

    • So many questions to be cleared up in trial. But we better figure this all out before then. I am realizing that the struggle in w6’s yard flopped around. The ground slopes.

      Sounds are key because it was so dark. She seems to think it started suddenly with cries for “help”. W12 says it was like dog howls at first. W5 says crying/whining. W6 says the voices were getting closer. But w11 says the clear “helps” don’t start until after she connects to 911.

      You could be right about her looking early. She needs to estimate the times for us. W3 connects at 7:16:41, Working backwards in time: she must have dialed around 7:16:26, she was in the front room when she called, so she must have walked from the back window where she had seen the white tee-shirt, so she might have started that walk at 7:16:16. I don’t think she looked out for very long, maybe 10 seconds. That would have her starting to look at 7:16:06. It was a particularly desperate scream that made her call the police.

      • Indeed, W12 saying that she heard an argument going north to south. Actually, JayneW18 says about the same that is that there was an argument prior to the cries. JohnW06 also says that there was a loud noise coming toward them.

        JayneW18, JenniferW11, JohnW05 are pretty clear about 2 phases to the scuffle: 1) Loud & moving argument & 2) Cries for help.

        You’re right about W03 hearing just the cries for help. This is another indication that the argument started by JenniferW11’s near the T and moved south. Indeed, there is a gradient in the details heard of the argument from 1211, 1221 & 1231TTL.

        That said, W03 was in her back room (office) above the scene when it happened. She had her window open and she reported no TV. She actually seemed to be working. So, she probably heard the cries as soon as it started. She probably immediately peeked through her closed blinds as she stated. So, she certainly witnessed the very beginning of the struggle on the ground. Her drawing places it closer to her unit and a bit south from where TM’s cellphone was found.

        This really reinforces the point that GZ can’t to match his narrative with evidences & witness. In this case, he had to stumble over ~60ft from the T and not 45ft per TM’s body nor 20ft per his reenactment. He also couldn’t have his head smashed on the concrete as he was neither on the sidewalk nor on a concrete block. Finally, it looks like he actually moved to the sidewalk.

  106. I need to know something so I can change my files for witnesses 6 and 19. Are we thinking…

    w11 – 7:16:11
    w03 – 7:16:41
    w18 – 7:17:06
    w06 – 7:17:15
    w05 – 7:17:54
    w19 – 7:18:00
    w15 – 7:19:04

    This flip-flop of John w6 with the dog walker w19 who was concerned about the elderly man means w6 connects 45 seconds earlier and w19 connects 45 seconds later than we thought. Makes much better sense for w6. From when he came back inside around 7:16 he had to get the phone from w17, he begins assisting her (on crutches) to the stairway because they were already concerned for their safety, and the shot goes off at 7:16:56. He dials 911 immediately because of the gunshot, begins helping her upstairs, when 911 answers at 7:17:15 he leaves her there on the lower stairs, runs alone to look out the back upstairs window in order to give the dispatcher an up-to-date status.

    Now w19 is the funny one. She doesn’t connect until over a minute after the shot.

    • Yup. I wouldn’t be surprised if ‘the elderly gentleman’ is a figment of W19’s imagination. Who knew?

      It also helps knowing W18 connected at 7;17;06. She told CNN twice that she was on the phone with 911 when the shot went off. She was not yet talking to the operator, but she would have picked up the phone before the shot, dialed and probably been listening to it ring when the shot was fired. This was the only ‘discrepancy’ in her statements, and I’m satisfied that this explains it.

      • Manalo was/is used to shelter his wife’s family including her parents. Hence, Frederick & Sally Pilch still have an address at 2861 RVC Sanford FL. It might be that Frederick is the elderly person TeresaW19 was talking about.

  107. I have updated http://imgur.com/a/bcAII with a few things including the locations of the blood stains.
    The one blood stain from TM on GZ is located on the front side of the jacket at about the level of the collar bone.
    The one blood stain from GZ on TM is located at the right side of the bottom front edge of the shirt (not the hoodie).
    The other blood stain on TM that can possibly be from GZ is located at the bottom of the middle front of the shirt.

    It’s too late for me to try making sense of this.

    • Just about no GZ blood anywhere adds up – there wasn’t any. Scratches on back of head, dribbling pathways on the skull, past the ears, around onto the face, not enough to drip anywhere. Any blood from the nose, I believe, would be post-shooting, as the nose scratch and “other injury” most likely from the casing or gun kickback. All nicely smeared for effect before asking witnesses “is there blood on my face?” which you’d not have to ask if your nose was broken and spurting and choking you with swallowed blood. But is useful to be sure about it you just got a kickback in your face and want to know the extent of visible injury too weave into a story.

      The spot on Trayvon’s shirt was most likely transferred by GZ’s hands while frisking Trayvon. No way in a fight/wrestle would any bleeding part of GZ (ie back of his head) be able to contact the bottom front edge of TM’s shirt. In wild theory, if TM was on the bottom and GZ on top when the gun kicked back, a small drop may have sprayed onto the shirt, which would have been partially exposed and pulled up at the time (but it is not apparent anywhere that the nose injury ever had this amount of bleeding).

      Just about no TM blood also adds up. Most of the bleeding was internal. The front of the clothing was soaked, but not enough to drip. Any smears from that would have to be direct contact. As, for example, on the bag of skittles. GZ may have gotten enough of this ON HIS HANDS during frisking Trayvon that a drop smeared on his own jacket by mistake. Almost certainly the blood on GZ’s hands that the EMT cleaned off was NOT HIS, or only partially his from rubbing his injuries to get the “45%” coverage. .. an additional reason to do this, to explain blood on his hands, if he got any during the frisking.

      There’s no way, NO WAY, he thought fast enough on his feet to make this all up as he went along, in under 2 minutes. There had to be a mental scenario, prepared for such emergencies, like a movie script. All he had to do was follow what the continuity script said. (Pity he lost the script, together with the plot, by the time it came to making statements).

    • Thanks so much Tchoupi. I am very interested in looking at the raw DNA data but just don’t have the time or patience right now to do it. For now, it helps me a lot for you to add the locations of the tested blood spots to your website. I agree with the basic assumption as expressed by Aussie that GZ’s blood found on TM’s undershirt (not hoodie) was from GZ frisking the body after the shot. Stain A/GZ’s blood found on the bottom front right side of TM’s shirt suggests that he was looking for the gun he imagined TM having in his waistband.

  108. ===============================================================
    ~6:05 Trayvon leaves home for store.???? (~16m_walk) —————————————————————

    6:21:54 Trayvon is seen outside the store traveling
    from the East to the West to enter 7 Eleven

    6:24:32 Two minutes later Trayvon leaves the store
    but is not seen outside heading back East

    6:29:19 Trayvon is seen outside heading back East

    ::::::::::::::::TOTAL TIME 7:29 SECONDS :::::::::::::

    6:54 At mailboxes ???

    25 MIN WALKING AT 4.4ft/second = 6600 FEET ???

    Trayvon needed only ~13:04 to reach the mailboxes from 711.
    Or eta of ~6:42:19 @4.4/ft/sec. walking speed.

    Therefore he could have sheltered there for 12 minutes by 6:54pm
    A minute or two longer if he had hustled as the rain had increased
    before he arrived there.

    I plotted the line of travel closer to the apartments, since the
    rain was increasing slowly and he’d want to stay closer to shelter
    just in case. Having mention rain to DD, he would probably mention
    that he could shelter at the “apartments” along the route he was
    taking. But he likely never stopped there.

    She probably remembers him saying something about “being able to
    sheter at the apartments”, but cannot distinguish them
    from the RATL mailbox shelter. She cannot know that he
    merely mentioned then passed them by.

    She mentions “apartments” because she remembers he said that word,
    she leaves it to the investigators to figure what it means.
    Good Girl, she knows that even little things can be important
    so she doesn’t try to “filter” anything, just because she doesn’t
    understand it. And sure enough, it’s a clue to the route he took.

    This puts him easily and securely at the RATL mailboxes by 6:54pm with
    ~564 feet remaining to home via the dog walk. A 2 minute 8 seconds walk.

    6:42:19 approx. At mailboxes: ~3452 feet from 711 @ 4.4ft/sec. 13min.

    7:11 George calls NEN to report suspicious person.

    7:11:44 He’s running.

    7:12 TM receives call.

    7:12 TM tells DD man following, puts hoodie up.

    7:13 GZ tells police to call him for location.

    7:13:39 GZ ends NEN call

    7:13 “What are you following me for?”

    7:13: Zimmerman tells NEN he lost him, returning to truck.

    [per George Zimmerman’s testimony
    a) Martin punches him
    b) beats him
    c) he shoots Martin…]

    7:16 TM’s line goes dead the call he received at 7:12 ended

    a) First of at least 7 911 calls begin.

    7:30 Martin pronounced dead.

    7:17 First officer arrives on scene.

    • Damnit Lonnie, Smith only entered the complex at 7:17.XX. He didn’t get to the scene of the shooting until more like 7:19. Remember, the shot goes off at 7:16:54, and before Smith gets there, JonW13 has enough time to grab his flashlight, walk around back, talk to GZ about ammo, and take pictures of GZ’s head and TM’s body.

      • Okay, that was part of a large block of cut n paste, I really hadn’t intended to work down that far. But the computer hung and I was ready to sleep so I just shut down.
        Thanks, I’ll fix it to read “1st officer arrives at front gate”??? better?

  109. AxiomAmnesia has 200 new pics of The Retreat taken by the FDLE.

    http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/fdle-photo/

    Viewed as a slideshow, the first 60 or so trace a path from the front of JonW13’s unit South along RVC, paying special attention to the spaces between the buildings. Then the sequence rounds the building at the very South end of the West side of RVC (the building Brandi Green lives in), and heads back up the ‘dog-walk’ sidewalk.

    Now I wonder, why would the state take these photos and in this sequence? One explanation would be that they suspect this was GZ’s true path as he continued looking for Trayvon after losing sight of him during the NEN call. I doubt they woud take these photos if they were convinced everything happened up near the ‘T’ as GZ says.

    I am puzzled by the numerous shots centered on the bumpy red-brown non-skid surfaces at the various points where the curb and sidewalk dip for wheelchair access. This isn’t something anyone would photograph just taking a general visual survey of the area, there has to be a reason. Could some of the material from these things have come off and been found on either GZ or TM? Any other ideas?

    • first thing that came to mind about the sequence was if a person like gz or witness says no it was further up or further down or near the bend etc, they would have easy access to the pictures in sequence and point to picture and say ok this is the next house is this what you are referring to…..

      • That makes a lot of sense. Those pics also show the next nearest street sign had Zimmerman headed south on TTL and a whole bunch of other stuff. Maybe those swirly patterns from the rubber ramp appeared on the bottom of Trayvon Martin’s or Zimmerman’s shoes.

        • I also noted a few other things that I posted on Leatherman’s blog aka Brown. Check converstion with Patrica

            • @Loree –

              I’m just fine — better than fine right now. Just super busy dealing with good things happening in my life and thank you for asking. Hope all is well on your front, too. As mostly a lurker now, I’m liking the progression I see. 🙂

              You, Patricia, Xena, Granny, TBT, Malisha, Vicky and others are in “we will rock you” mode… LOL! Lovin’ it! Reminds me of some of bcclist’s earlier discussions and those had at ViewFromLL2. I even saw some posters questioning the disconnect of the bag from the Arizona drink over there which has been a great big WTF in my mind for a while now.

              Team logic (bcclist) doesn’t address this, so it’s good (from my perspective) to see teams leatherman and jeralyn (both defense attorneys) addressing this from opposite ends of the spectrum, although team viewfromll2 (not a defense atty) fiercely debated it.

              Anyhoo… why haven’t we gotten any brisket or frappes??!!

            • Thanks for getting back to me Common. I do miss the View, it had changed awhile back when we had that crazy guy constantly putting up bad sh@t, and finally Susan banned him. I try and post @ NLME, but I am one of those people who can get lost in a circle. It’s hard for me to follow at times when the discussion in in the realm of distances and to north south ft per second, that kind of stuff. I still find it damn interesting how Tchopi, Amsterdam, Whonoze, broke all that down. I guess I’m more of a research and hard copy kind of girl, files and paperwork kind of thing. I can remember conversations, paperwork links faster then I can remember which way he was headed if that makes sense to you. Anywho, the brisket did turn out FANTASTIC, sending you a virtual plate of baked macaroni cheese, string beans big thick slices of brisket, and I also made a nice carrot cake with cream cheese frosting. Sorry the cake is from a box : ^ ( didn’t have time to do it by scratch.

              Best Regards
              Loree

              PS I was lurking about too but finally things are slowing down at work, I have been playing major catch up also.

            • @Loree –

              Yum. All of my favorites! Thank you! Totally understand frustration with following some of the discourse.

    • @whonoze, I do not read anything into the red bumpy wheelchair ramps except that they are landmarks for the pathways. I did notice one odd picture #26 out of 60 on this page at axiom amnesia.
      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/fdle-photo/?nggpage=2
      There are two red splotches, one on the edge of the sidewalk and the other in the grass. I can’t imagine that they’re actually marking spots where any biological evidence could be found a month after the shooting. Maybe they just spraypainted the spot near where the body was found in order to survey/estimate the distance from the T. Can anybody tell based on the grill in the background where that picture was taken?

      • I think it’s in back of 1351 TTL. It’s approximately halfway down the dog walk but not exactly.

        • I think you are correct. It looks like the property line between 1351 and 1341 on TTL to me. Walking north from the tee near the back gate, it’s between the second and third houses past the first grassy cut-through.

          It’s also the second set of houses not down by where W6 is. Start at image 20 (first cut-through on TTL side if you start walking south to north). Notice the floral arrangement in a second floor window. Keep walking. Notice the covered grill in image 22 and 23.

        • @Jay and whonoze. Thanks guys. So the red splotches are a little further south of the body? I wonder if its marking the spot possibly where Austin might have seen what he thought was only one person who had fallen. Watch this video between 0:55 and 1:00 min mark showing Austin standing and pointing down at the edge of the sidewalk. See if you guys think it matches based on the number of sidewalk cement blocks and the camera vantage point.

          • In that photo Austin is standing roughly near where the body was, not where he was when he saw the body (otherwise he would not be pointing down).

            The red splotches are more than a little South of the body, about 60 yards.

    • FDLE is being more thorough than SPD was. The red-brown stuff could be evidence especially if found on things other than shoe soles. But those surfaces are distributed through the neighborhood. These photos show why w19 had to go into her upstairs bathroom to see out. They show where the various living room sliding glass doors and the little kitchen windows are.

      It does indicate there was suspicion of movement of GZ and TM toward Brandi Green’s which is one of the southmost places shown here. I think at trial they will be ready to show any part of the neighborhood that is brought up. I noticed the FDLE truck parked on RVC. Maybe they just started where the truck was for no special reason. It’s also where officer Smith started. Did you see my speculation a while back about GZ going down RVC to keep a constant eye on the rear exit?

      • Smith did not start at 2861 RVC, but at 2821 and he moved North, not South. I too have been speculating for awhile now that GZ went South down RVC to watch the rear exit, and possibly cut off ‘the asshole’ there.

        It’s possible the pictures are in the order they are by ‘chance’ but unlikely. Most structure occurs for some kind of reason, but there’s nothing in GZ’s stories or any of the witness statement AFAIK to motivate this photo sequence being in this order. Which would suggest the FDLE might have some other reason to suspect GZ traveled that way. It could just be a logical deduction based on GZ’s assertion he did walk to RVC, the amount of time that passed, and W2’s report of seeing a South-to-North chase. Or perhaps the prosecution has some evidence or testimony as yet unrevealed that places GZ on RVC at some point well south of the cut-through sidewalk. (Wishful thinking, perhaps…)

    • I see what appears to be blood stains on the sidewalk and on the grass (although it could be something else) in pictures 46 and 47 in the slideshow at the link whonoze posted (http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/fdle-photo/). These pictures were taken at the southern-most end of the dog walk which are the Tee formed at the other end of the dog-walk. You can tell this is near the back entrance as well by looking at the browning leaf on the tree in image 47, then finding that leaf on the same tree in image 48 (which also shows a kiddie dining set on the patio). The kiddie dining set is visible on images 49, but more importantly on image and 50 which clearly shows the back gate.

      On what date were these pictures taken?

      Also note that many of the people there leave their furniture and their barbecue grills outside. Guess they weren’t concerned about anybody stealing their belongings.

      • @CSFC, dried blood would be dark brown, not red.
        @Whonoze and Jay, thanks, I googled the 1341 TTL address and finally understood that it’s the 2nd building down quite far from the body.
        ARGGGGHHH! Whatever could those red splotches mean? They have to be related to the investigation. I thought that it could be the FDLE marking where they put survey equipment for measuring distance, but the placement on the sidewalk and grass are odd.

        • Good point @WSI. Since it can’t be blood from 2/26/12, what would FDLE drop on the sidewalk by the back entrance tee (shown in pic on the right) and in the grass (shown on the left) as a testing agent that would appear red on both surfaces and why?

          • In the photos taken by the SPD (see photo #40 out of 60), you can see orange paint right underneath the yellow tripod of the survey equipment.
            http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/trayvon-zimmerman-case-photos/trayvon-martingeorge-zimmerman-crime-scene-photos/?nggpage=2
            Since that stuff is semi permanent, I guess they have to spray it in the grass or at least not in the middle of the sidewalk where it’s noticeable (and would piss off the homeowner association). I guess survey paint can come in different colors.

            • @WSI –

              I do see that. Very interesting. But that’s at the opposite tee. The other thing that gives me pause for dismissing the red spots at the tee near the back gate is that there are two red drops — one on the sidewalk at that tee and the other in the grass (where if it were at the northern tee, would be where Zimmerman claims Trayvon Martin “attacked” from). IOW, it’s the extreme opposite location of Zimmerman’s story.

              I guess they could have moved the tripods multiple times and marked each spot. For example, it is obvious from the pics that they took a surround view set of pics once they reached the first cut-through and didn’t proceed further towards the body found area for the set on p2.

            • One other thing… It appears bright red on the sidewalk by the back entrance tee, deep red in the grass by the back entrance tee, pinkesh red in the two she potted areas by the first cut-through and bright orange by the northern tee beside W11’s screened patio. Why?

            • Starting to feel like Lady MacBeth “Damn spot!” The orange spot at the top of the T was put there by SPD. The other red spots were made (presumably) by FDLE. The different shades of red could be due to it being on cement or grass and also on the amount sprayed from an aerosol can (darker color if a lot is sprayed). BTW, I have to apologize for having made a sarcastic remark to someone a long time ago about endless discussing the plastic bag. I thought that was silly, but now I’m talking about shades of spots! Oy vay!

          • WSI – I remember the remark you made about the plastic bags. Hm, wonder if that comment was to me, lol. *waves* I’m sitting back reading all the wonderful discussion. My brains fried as of late, and I’m not so great at all this analysis anyway.

            Keep up the great discussion, all. 🙂 Also, good to see aussie back posting a bit. Is unitron around anymore?

            • Hey QETNO, glad you’re momentarily out of your virtual drunken stupor. 🙂 I actually don’t remember who all was talking about the bag, as I skipped right on by that discussion. At the time, I hadn’t been on the blog that long and was a bit snarky at times. I realize now when you’ve been at this for awhile, you tend to focus on details, cuz that’s what we do here!! I Just hope I don’t go crazy seeing Elvis in those spots! I haven’t heard from unitron here lately.

      • I don’t think FDLE was investigating from the beginning. I could be wrong. It was SPD’s baby the first weeks. The FDLE interviews start happening March 19 or 20. That was a big change point around when DeeDee was located,

    • If you’re talking about the red dots on page 2 pic #26. This appears to be the location of the south total station. Check the 2nd evidence dump at the last page.

      • @tchoupi, thank you! So THAT’S what “total station” means (surveying equipment). I remember seeing that in the schematic/map of the scene and thought it was another name for a doggie poop trash can. LOL.

  110. I can’t find witness 13’s written statement. I know he gave one on Feb. 26 because it is referred to during the 2nd interview. Looks like it hasn’t been released. Can anyone direct me?

  111. There’s a coinciding sound description that I think may be an alignment point between w5, w16, w12, and w13.

    w5: “It just sounded like someone was struggling, or in trouble, or hurting, or something. So, we both looked at each other and started walking around, I mean, kind of slowly.”

    w13: “And at first it sounded like dogs. And I was, “What was that?” And she goes, “I don’t know” (my wife).”

    We have two minutes of soundscape to reconstruct. This seems like a significant change point when the volume and/or the character of the encounter intensified. I’m thinking it was so noticeable that it causes both w5 and w16 to look at each other and w12 and w13 to look at each other. I think w3 called 911 because of a distrubing scream at the end of her look out back. When w6 went inside to call 911 he says the struggle was escalating.

    • I looked through the discovery dump 1 and 2 quickly, did not see wit13 written statement. Will keep looking through my files.

    • @ Jay

      would you happen to have a link to the discovery dump where the bloodied sweatshirt is photographed. My file is bad. Need another copy. I believe it was issued 7/13/12.

  112. AxiomAmnesia has that floating block for sharing likes. Anyone have any idea how to get rid of it? It keeps getting in the way of what I want to see. Thanks if anyone can help.

    • @aussie, “AxiomAmnesia has that floating block for sharing likes. Anyone have any idea how to get rid of it? It keeps getting in the way of what I want to see.”

      That floating block for sharing likes doesn’t really get in the way if you’re in Internet Explorer. If you’re using Google Chrome, you can get rid of it if you right click on the box, select “Inspect Element”, then move your cursor down to the bottom edge of your Google Chrome window until the cursor changes from a one headed arrow to a double-headed arrow. Click and drag up-ward and you’ll reveal a window with a bunch of code. At about the 10th line, find the line that starts with:
      <div id="leftcontainerBox"
      Click on that line to highlight it, press "delete" and poof, gone!
      Unfortunately, you'd have to do this everytime you go to a different page.

      • Actually, here is an easier way to get rid of the floating “Like” box on Axiom Amnesia if you’re using Google Chrome. Right click on the box, select “Inspect Element”. You should see that the box gets highlighted. Just press “delete” and it’ll go away. No need to search through code. Again, this has to be done every time you go to a new page on the site.

        • Once again, I am totally baffled by what you guys and gals see. I don’t see anything obstructing my view of the site(s).

  113. Tchoupi and Amsterdam:

    Did you look at the split screen video? I’m not much for parsing the security cams, but they don’t seem to be quite in sync as near as i can tell. Close maybe, but not right on.

    (I don’t think the start time can be 7:48. By my crude math that would put a lot of ‘light event’ activity after GZ places his NEN call, and during the period where he describes Trayvon as walking toward him, which doesn’t make sense to me.)

    • @ whonoze: could you plese tell me how to find the split screen video before you take it down- sorry, I’m playing catch up and a bit behind the eight ball here. thank you!

  114. I’m still thinking about GZ’s damn truck.

    From his description of events in the NEN call, I’m convinced that as he describes Trayvon coming toward him, he has to be parked on TTL facing the clubhouse. I’m also convinced he moves the truck after that: a) because you can hear him turning the wheel and putting the transmission back in Park, and b) because even GZ isn’t stupid enough to tell the cops he left his truck other than in the position where they would have found it. So, before he left the truck, he turned around and parked facing the ‘T’, on the wrong side of the street so his headlights would illuminate more of the area along the cut-through sidewalk.

    Now, NLME’s rigorous investigation of the warning chimes on a Ridgeline indicates that the alert we hear is caused by the lights being left on. But if the lights were on an auto-off scheme, I don’t think the chime would sound. That’s the point of an auto-off: the lights stay awhile to show you where you’re going after you leave the vehicle, and then turn themselves off without you having to think about it. So a warning would be unnecessary and counter-productive…

    So if GZ’s headlights were on when he left the truck, and the warning chime sounded, they should have STAYED on, right? It was only about 7 minutes between the time he left the truck, and the time the cops started arriving in numbers. I doubt his battery would have run down in that time. So the ‘T’ area would have been illuminated the whole time. When the police arrived, you’d think they would have noticed a big pickup, empty, parked on the wrong side of the street with it’s lights on. You’d also think W12, W13, and W18 would have noticed the beam of light coming down the sidewalk. Yet there’s no mention of truck lights on the scene in any witness statements, or in any of the police reports, AFAIK.

    So, could everybody have missed this seemingly obvious detail? Or could the warning chime be something else other than what NLME has deduced? (E.g. would it chime like that if the lights were in auto-off mode, but the keys were in the ignition?) Or does the Ridgeline just have a stupid alert system that warns you the lights are on even when it’s going to turn them off automatically in a few seconds?

    • The lights on position, be it auto-on or manual on, would still produce the chime, IIRC. The only difference in the vehicle’s behavior has to do with whether the lights remain on for 15 seconds or for 10 minutes. I think the lights stay on for 10 minutes if the key is in the ignition and one of the light selection modes is set “on” or “park” plus some other positioning of the key, yadda, yadda. If the keys are in the ignition when the driver opens the door, I think a different alerting noise would be heard in addition to the lights “on” chime. There’s even a separate seatbelt beep that’s different from the lights “on” chime. Of course all these annoying features can be defeated by the vehicle’s owner.

      Again, this is all IIRC from reading the manuals, auto forums, trouble reports and the video NLME posted as well as other vids on ridgelines. Someone also posted here on one of bcclist’s blog postings a link to vehicle sounds as factory programmed.

    • Just narrative logic- not automotive research- makes me think he opened the door first and THEN removed his keys and that’s what the sound might be – reminding him to remove they keys.

      It something someone grabbing flashlight and gun etc might do.

    • Whonoze,

      From my studies:

      You’ll get the chime if the lights are on “park” or “on” modes when you open the door without the keys in the ignition.

      You’ll get a different chime if the keys are in the ignition when you open the door. So, I’ll exclude that eventuality. Moreover the keys were found at the crime scene.

      After exiting your car with the keys and the light on “park” or “on” the light turn off automatically after 15sec.

      I have the same behavior with my Honda & my Mazda.

      • No, a small flashlight was found at the seen, with a single unknown key attached to it (not ‘keys’). And Shellie drives a Honda sedan (confirmed in the discovery).

        How stupid to warn you about lights being left on if they’re going to turn off in 15 seconds anyway…

        • Computers are only as smart (or stupid) as the people that program them. Annoyances are often dealt with by ignoring them. For your theory about the key to work, you need a 10 minute or more light event. To argue the 15 second shut-off is a cop-out and a buy-in to a straw argument against your own theory.

          • No light event. The truck was facing East toward the ‘T’ when GZ left it. Anyway, if the people who have researched the Honda say they’re sure iit will chime even if the lights will shut off in a matter of seconds, I’m not going to dispute them.

    • I’ve always felt that GZ parked at the first corner of TTL facing mailbox, then executed a second u turn to chase TM east on TTL, parking more or less where he claims as a final position. The timing of the NEN call all but completely rules out other possibilities.

      Contributing and corroborating factors that have emerged include the map GZ drew on, where he marked the spot personally then quickly amended it immediately prior to his first telling of the “TM doubled back to circle my car” false narrative that can never be made to fit a timeline. Then of course there is GZs repeated insistence at his third and final SPD interview where he is finally played the NEN recording. GZ repeatedly insists he is “at the clubhouse” when the “hand in waistband / coming to check me out” portion is reached. To me, this parking spot beside/ opposite the mail kiosk is why GZ thinks he can lie- it’s close to the parking lot and he’s unafraid to fudge the truth here until about the third or fourth time he’s asked the same question, when he suddenly clams up. It’s a highly suspicious line of responses to questioning. But using this position as a hypothetical seems to resolve somewhat the contradictions and inconsistencies in his thinking. It damn sure fits the timing, given the oft-overlooked “long tail” of apox 30 second where TM seems to have walked past his car but has not yet broke into running flight.

      Were GZ at his “final” position already when passed, Trayvon would have had to walk very fast from the mail kiosk and then very slow once he passed the Ridgeline or else his speed would have allowed him to disappear from view before GZ could see him run, no matter what route he took.

      Now that I’m delving into the clubhouse videos the only part of thus that I question at all is the SECOND probable Uturn. It’s possible GZ chased TM down TTL in reverse, thereby keeping his car in the blind spot of the eastpool video – the blind spot that is created by the “constant flare” upper screen left, the one that “blooms” when cars approach west

      • “It’s possible GZ chased TM down TTL in reverse,”
        I doubt it. Assuming he has to end up where he says he ended up, the only thing that makes sense is that he just turned the truck around so he he could shine his headlights on TM as TM went into the dark area toward the ‘T’. i would have to assume the reason no ‘light event’ is associated with this final turn is that GZ did not turn his lights on until after he finished the turn and was pointed in the other direction.

        So i don’t think GZ actually ‘chased’ TM in the truck, but just turned the truck around to get a better view, which is a sort of “following.” Not that it matters really.

        I’ve been looking at the aerial view of The Retreat trying to identify the source of those constant lights visible in the East Pool Video. The big bloom on the left, I think has to be some kind of spotlight attached to the mail-shed. There’s no distance between it and the pool fence. The larger bloom to the right side of the pool seems to be from a streetlight near SouthWest corner of the turn in TTL. Thus you can see the separation of the ground between it and the pool. The mystery is the narrower pattern in between, aka “The Snowman’. Again I highly doubt a porch light on JohnW6’s building could cast a beam that bright from that distance. I wish we had a view from that security cam in daytime, so we could see exactly what is covered in the angle of view.

  115. Regarding the survey marks: the way the “total staion” works is to set up a triangulation of sending units for Positining.

    One of the bases must have been there since it’s a fixed position.

  116. I’ve posted witness 13 files, three interviews and the combined sequence of the three that I call a composite. Couldn’t find his written statement anywhere. 😦 I think it might be long because he takes a long to check it over.

    Timing is tricky because questions and answers in the interviews are not always given chronologically. As you know, the witnesses say many things. The sequencing of these events is critically important. If you get them in the wrong order your idea of the evening is partly biffed. It’s frustrating. I think my composites made from the interviews are mostly in sequence. However, with some of the new info coming out I’m seeing my errors. There are very few solid anchor points of time like the gunshot. So, I’m looking for more of these reliable, incontrovertible times or event.

    The ultimate test comes when I paste into the spread sheet because that has to be accurate to the second. This forces the fuzzy thinking to go away. I appreciate your feedback on mistakes. They are very easy for me to edit.

    • An important note on witness 13:

      “And by that time I kind of flashed my light down and there was this kid face down in the grass. And the person laying on the ground was wearing like a long jean shorts maybe down to his calf. Looked like a dark blue hoodie type sweater. I think he had a white tee-shirt underneath.”

      Was this the tee-shirt w3 says was so white it popped out at her? If so, then Trayvon’s hoodie had scooted way, way up. I can imagine GZ holding him by his hoodie, more or less manhandling it. This could have been the case whenever either one or neither one was on top. But w3 does say she saw the white tee-shirt on top.

      • If someone is holding you by your outer garment, it’s a reasonable maneuver to try to shed that garment so as to be able to flee. Obviously if GZ is holding onto the hoodie, TM has his hands free. He can lift the hoodie by the waist and try to get it up over his head. If GZ realizes what’s happening he lets go and TM would then let the hoodie drop back down as he no longer needs to shed it. So, he then attempts to rise. Just thinking.

        • Hi Lonnie –

          I don’t think Trayvon Martin’s undergarments were shown. White tee-shirt is Zimmerman’s patterned jacket “popping” in the night against the dark (grass) background.

          That’s my story and I’m sticking to it unless and until a logical explanation informs my opinion. Haven’t seen one presented yet.

          The new evidence dump includes a back and frontal view of Zimmerman’s jacket which illustrates the popping color and the pattern one would see.

  117. I just posted the composite sequence for witness 14, Austin. It was taken from several sources.

    – sister’s 911 call February 26
    – Serino interview March 5
    – Orlando Sentinel interview I found on YouTube
    – Matt Gutman of ABC World News
    – De la Rionda interview March 27

    Since he is so young I looked at lots of articles. His mom and sister also help explain his testimony.

    • Thanks SJ. Austin was very close to the altercation although hampered by the darkness and dark background and also his errant dog.

      On another topic, it appears justiceQuest’s Trayvon Martin forum has been “locked” down. I occasionally lurked there to examine the transcripts they had but was never a poster or member there. Does anyone undestand the politics of that site and what happened? Also is there another place to go for transcripts besides talkleft?

      I cherish this site… It seems to be a refuge from haters and the willfully ignorant. Let’s figure out how to keep it that way!

      • @Willis. Wow, it looks like only the trayvon thread was locked down at JQ, not the whole site. I have no idea about the politics that site, but I wonder if it has anything to do with the TCTH getting a notice of copyright infringement regarding a picture of TM (see link below). There may also be threats of suing the nuthouse over their publishing of Osterman’s book excerpts. JQ may be just trying to prevent any lawsuits coming their way? Who knows. As I had re-posted a few quotes from the book taken from the nuthouse, that scared me a bit so I read up on copyright laws. Apparently, it’s OK to use short quotes for the purpose of review or reporting. Well, that’s what I was doing, so PHEW! safe there.

        http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/09/12/scheme-team-legal-extortion-another-financial-angle-or-just-trying-to-shut-down-criticism-and-research-you-decide/

        • Nice! TCTH’ers are speculating that the Martin family wants to expose the blog owner’s identity rather than protect their copyright interests … Can you believe it?!

          I’ve read about trolls hitting up JQ and causing extra work for the mods. Maybe they just had a rash of that lately. I hope it’s only a temporary lockdown.

          • Hello Rodlen –

            Do you know why it was moved to private? I love that site, but I no longer do paid for emails or websites, so can’t join easily (which is a membership/subscriber deterrent). Since any ole’ degenerate can confirm a paid for email account and join, have they chosen this “private” route to thwart the new trolls? Scoop, please?

      • It is kind of interesting this blog hasn’t been infested yet. I suspect the information we exchange is to detailed.

        • @Amsterdam –

          It has been (infested). NLME did some weeding by challenging instead of deleting. I find that approach commendable!

          When I first started reading here, there was a Nola or two. I’m not sure why those people scurried off except that maybe as you say, the info here is too detailed. Personally, I think some previous posters assumed that mixed-race people’s opinions could be squashed if they painted themselves minorities while presenting ignorant intolerant views.

          All that being said, bcclist has successfully weeding out the trolls without resorting to locking down the blog or requiring paid email accounts to enable posting privilege. That’s indicative of quality attraction from where I sit.

          • After reading your post, I imagined in my head NLME and others turning into that little lady from Poltergist, screaming in the “Living Room” this house in now clean.

    • Austin’s one person description of what he saw confirms other witnesses seeing one person — zimmerman’s grown-sized body atop the boy’s!

  118. It was raining hard when Trayvon approached The Retreat. He wasn’t standing around in the pouring rain. He was running for cover. It was before the main gate closed. He would have taken the shortest route. And LlmPapa points out that by Taaffe’s house it would be soggy if not flooding. Were Trayvon’s shoes soaking wet? Don’t think so. Were his clothes drenched? Not that I know of.

    So, did he come by Taaffe’s? Doesn’t much look like it. Unlikely that GZ saw him there. We already have one contradiction between standing and running. I suppose it would draw attention of GZ saw the kid running. Then why didn’t he say so? I lean toward the tip-off. Nothing really wrong with tip-offs for Neighborhood Watch. GZ’s name and number were published in HOA newletter for that purpose.

    • @SJ –

      Good point about the second cut-through option by the broken fences which I think is actually one of the first blogosphere speculations about alternate route I’d ever seen before Zimmerman’s statements were released. Short-cutting through by the broken fence makes sense if Trayvon Martin’s route didn’t include walking through the adjacent apartment complex/taking shelter there. This becomes more obvious when you map directions from 1460 RVC to 1111 RVC. It could be that he walked through the apartment complex and took shelter there first and then the cut-through by Taaffe’s place would be the most direct route.

      I’m still not ruling out the possibility that Trayvon Martin may have walked through the apartment complex first. I’m not sure either route matters all that much at this point because the forensics, recorded NEN and 9-1-1 calls, plus the witness statements and zimmerman’s own lack of credibility have told the story already.

      Re Taaffe, has anyone ever shown he was home/local on 2/26/12?

      • There was a car in his driveway the next day after 5pm as seen in the walk thru “re-enactment” video…

        Other than that i’ve not heard anything. Speculation about a tipoff person seems to center on either Taafe or Mark Osterman, but absent GZs phone records it seems unprovable at present. Does anyone know the status of these records? I’d heard a rumor that prepaid cell phone accounts dont have itemized billing statements but I am no expert on this matter.

        I do know that GZ surrendered his phone to SPD and that later the SAO made mention of text messages it had of his.

        • They still have to keep records on a pre-paid phone, otherwise how would they know when it was used up? Such phones are untraceable only because the user doesn’t have to give a name and address. But the user may be identified, by the calls he or she has made, if LEO’s get hold of the phone. They may even be able to trace the phone back to it’s point of sale (pos) and there the cctv may give a clue to the owner.

      • @Willis –

        “There was a car in his driveway the next day after 5pm as seen in the walk thru “re-enactment” video…”

        And the night before? Before either Taaffe or Osterman can be entertained as conspirators or tip-off perps, we need to know where they were.

        I don’t care if they were tip-offs or not. Zimmerman is NOT a robot and whatever he did he did it based on his own choices and free will.

        OTOH, I’d like your take on the latest evidence dump of pics. That’s your specialty, right? What do the red dots mean up by the back gate’s tee — not the dots midway on the tee?

        I would be pissed if the dots were checked just based on our speculations and I hope the SPD and the FDLE are using investigative procedures and standards to prove their case — not appeasing us public challengers. There must be a reason for dotting those areas near the southern tee (near the back gate). Why? Maybe it’s standard to present theories extremely opposite the accused story? Helpppp?

        • Which series of photos are you talking about Common?
          From AxAm
          page 1 2 3 or 4 maybe I can take a looksee…

        • I posted something about this red dot thing above…. but maybe I was unclear.

          If we are indeed talking about the same photos, the red dot below the tripod is just that – a red dot below the tripod. It means, the tripod is here.

          Long answer, they put sending units up to make the “total station” gizmo work. Three are needed, just like global satellite positioning in your car works – positions on the ground are triangualted (sp?) based on hwo far they are frmo each base station. The T at the southern end of the sidewalk is just a handy landmark, it doesnt mean anything happened there.

          There was another base station at the top of the dog walk, and I don’t know where the third one was off hand but I think it is marked on the “total station map” that was the last page of one of the later document dumps.

          I’ve not been able to see the full set of total station photos except on my cell phone so I haven’t posted much about what they show. SO far, I’d say they dont really tell us anything we didnt already know.

          I do think the evidence markers were “re-placed” according to the hand drawn plan, and I know for a fact that they got at least one marker in the wrong place before they made the total station map. THis was the first aid kit – it’s not an important item but they did get it wrong. I think – I dont know – but i think they also got the cluster of shell casing, black flashlight and cell phone slightly off too from where they are in the original photos taken that night. As sad as that is, I doubt it matters much. They are all some 45 feet from where GZ claims he was sucker punched.

          Do you have a url for the so called new total station set of pics? Having trouble finding it again.

          OVERLAYtotalStation.w/my.evidence.map

          this is an old overlay of mine, but you can see the black triangle symbol visible at the top T. I didn’t include the lower one in this illustration, but if memory serves me it’s there.

          if you want to get into it, the 567 photo is what i think is the closest to where things really were found.

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157630994203862/with/7749837124/

          There’s plenty to quibble over in this photo-set, which is never going to be perfect, but it’s my idea of where the body was when it was face down based on everything we have BEFORE the total station PHOTOs were released last week. I doubt the daytime photos of markers that were replaced on the ground are going to add much to what we already know, esp since the one’s ive seen are from such un-useful angles.

    • @Jay, this also makes me wonder about the alleged things that initially made TM suspicious to GZ and what constituted profiling. We have to narrow it down from the first moment he saw TM until the start of the NEN call. The only thing he ever says initially in the NEN call was that this guy is walking leisurely in the rain looking AT houses. No mention of cutting THROUGH houses. Only later on would GZ say in various statements that TM was suspicious for looking “INTO” house(s) (written statement) and cutting between houses. Between Taaffe’s and the top of the T, GZ never said that TM cut between houses in the re-enactment. I have to discount the part where TM goes running down south on the T as “cutting” between homes because at that point GZ had already made the NEN call and decision to follow the suspicious character. While it’s questionable TM was ever at Taaffe’s, it was only an assumption/part of the profiling in GZ’s mind that TM had cut through from outside. We also have to discount him saying that TM was not going to check the mail because he hadn’t even reached the mailboxes yet when GZ decided to call NEN (according to the reenactment). We also have to discount the “coming to check me out” and “he’s got a hand in his waistband” statements because those events occurred after the NEN call started. So the ONLY thing he saw between Taaffe’s and the clubhouse by his own admission was a black teenager walking rather slowly in the rain. HOW can he say not profiling? BTW, they should get a statement from Brandy, Chad or the cousin as to whether they had ever walked with TM through the cut-through. I wouldn’t think TM would take the cut-through unless he went there initially with someone before.

      • @WSI –

        “While it’s questionable TM was ever at Taaffe’s, it was only an assumption/part of the profiling in GZ’s mind that TM had cut through from outside. We also have to discount him saying that TM was not going to check the mail because he hadn’t even reached the mailboxes yet when GZ decided to call NEN (according to the reenactment). We also have to discount the “coming to check me out” and “he’s got a hand in his waistband” statements because those events occurred after the NEN call started.”

        Yes! Yes, yes, yes!!!!

      • Good question. Did Trayvon even know about the cut-through? I am hoping they have been able to establish, who else was driving down TTL, prior to the nen call. Somebody may have seen Trayvon near the mail area.

        • I really doubt they’ll find anybody who could remember TM at the mailboxes, just like the store clerk didn’t remember TM. NO ONE would have thought TM was out of place except GZ (OK, maybe Taaffe.)

      • Hold on there, folks. It’s almost impossible to lie while describing something happening in the present tense. GZ called the police to report someone he thought was suspicious. The only thing he has a reason to shade the truth about in the first part of the NEN call is that HE may not have seen TM walking around, but only heard a report of it. And indeed he never says “I saw…”, he says “there’s a guy…” But the ‘coming to check me out’ and ‘hand in his waistband’ comments while over-interpreted (TM was was home, not ‘checking out’ GZ) are surely responses to actual events (TM walked toward the truck, and his hands were probably in his hoodie pocket). Remember, he described the button on the hoodie, the white shoes. He was reporting things as he saw them, warped perhaps, but not falsely. Not yet.

        I believe Chad has reported showing TM the short-cut, though I’m not sure it’s in any official statement.

        If DeeDee’s account is correct, it doesn’t matter how TM entered The Retreat because he was at the mailboxes before GZ left home. Not that it matters, but I don’t think LLMPapa makes a convincing argument about the shortcut. There are several images of kids using the passage by Taaffe’s, and the fencing on the gap closer to the corner suggests walking there is verboten and recognized as such by the residents. And if TM knew the area well enough to use the shortcut, his most direct path home would not have been to take RVC on the convoluted path LLMPapa shows in yellow, but to walk down the sidewalk behind the buildings on the South side of RVC that leads toward the pool.

        But he could have used either shortcut, or the front gate. The point is not what path he took, but when he got to the clubhouse. If DeeDee’s right about where TM was when the call dropped, there’s no way GZ saw him enter the complex. Perhaps GZ was tipped, perhaps not. Perhaps whoever spotted him just saw him at the mailbox area, and he was uneasy being caught in the rain so he was pacing back and forth, ducking out and in from the awning, just out of nervous energy while he was talking. If he’d had a headset on, GZ (or his tipster) wouldn’t have seen the phone, and TM would have looked like he was muttering to himself.

        As i noted in my video on the ‘re-enactment’ it would be quite difficult for someone driving by to spot a pedestrian emerging from the shortcut by Taaffe’s. The timing would need to be perfect. So, no, I don’t think GZ saw TM there at all. Rather, knowing that was how burglars actually had entered the complex on a prior occasion, GZ placed TM there in his ‘story’ because it seemed incriminating.

        • @whonoze you said “Hold on there, folks. It’s almost impossible to lie while describing something happening in the present tense.”

          You TOTALLY misunderstood my comment, which was about profiling. I did not say that his statements about coming to check GZ out or having a hand in his waistband are lies. I meant that you can discount them as being REASONS for GZ to have thought TM was suspicious in the first place. My point/question was “What are the things that caused GZ to believe TM was suspicious BEFORE making the NEN call”, and are these things reasonable for any person to place the NEN call, or did GZ profile a dark-skinned kid in a hoodie who was only walking slowly in the rain looking at the neighborhood? Not stumbling, just walking leisurely. He cannot add any of the other reasons for his initial profiling such as not checking mail or “cutting through houses” because GZ claims to have seen him at Taaffes and then soon after drives down to the clubhouse and makes his call.

          • Ok. Yeah, GZ was totally profiling, and had no reasonable cause to suspect TM of anything. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to keep an eye peeled if you spot a stranger in your neighborhood, or even to track that person discreetly, as I believe Neighborhood Watch volunteers are counseled to do. But GZ’s apparent action, from crusing by the mailboxes, to giving TM the evil eye, to directing his headlights to TM’s path, to pursuing him on foot and finally engaging in a personal confrontation — while not necessarily illegal in themselves — are certainly over the line of good sense and reasonability and go to the depraved mind issue.

            I think GZ is aware that he had a responsibility – moral and ethical if not legal – to avoid conflict if possible. I’d guess the version of his story where TM jumps him from behind as he’s returning to his truck was designed to give him an excuse for not withdrawing: he didn’t have a chance. But he seems to have realized enough witnesses heard some kind of verbal confrontation before the physical scuffle that he came up with the “What’s your problem, Homie?” dialogue. IMHO, this alone gets him at least to Manslaughter 1, as ANY verbal exchange would require a pause in which he could retreat physically, stepping back away from TM in order to avoid physical contact. But his own words, this he did not do. Of course, we may conclude he did a lot more, that he actively initiated contact with Trayvon. But the particulars of that may be difficult to prove, where his failure to retreat would seem to have to be stipulated from the get go at this point.

      • I think we went over this before. But TM has stayed at RATL several times before and even knew kids he played football with. Heck, even those kids at the 711 that night, may have been kids he played with at one time or another. In any event, the media did several pieces on RATL in which they highlight the cut through by FT’s place and they state that kids use these shortcuts all the time. LLMPapa doesn’t seem to be aware of it, he says that there’s a 6′ deep drainage ditch running though there that makes it unlikely that TM went that way. Also he says it’s a longer way into RATL, if TM stays on Rinehart past the apartments.

        But, the map shows empty lots where TM could leave Rinehart road much sooner and shorten his trip by cutting through the apartment complex. Since the rain has been gradually increasing since he left the store, he’d want to stay close to places to shelter, and the apartments provide such a route. But they’d leave him much closer to FT’s cut through than to the front one. DD mentions “apartments”, obviously she didn’t make that up. TM had to mention apartments in his talk to her. The only sense doing so would make, is if he was talking about his option to shelter there if need be.

        He didn’t do it, because he felt close enough to run for the mailboxes, after all, he was on a schedule of sorts, he wanted to be home in time to watch the game. So, instead of sheltering at the apartments, he passes them by and hustles to the mailboxes. From 711 to the mailboxes is a 13 minute trip at 4.4/ft/sec. If he hustles he can probably do it in close to 10 minutes. So he arrives at the mailboxes some where around 6:39 to 6:42, three or more minutes too early for GZ to see him anywhere walking. By the time GZ gets to the front area, TM has already been sheltering at the mailboxes for several minutes.

        Tchoupi’s work with the cctv’s show a truck that appears to head for the front gate, but, instead of going out, it goes over to TTL and comes back. Like GZ searching for someone he doesn’t yet see on his first pass. If it is GZ, why doesn’t he go out the front gate to the store like he claims? Why does he continue to hunt for someone? And, if it isn’t GZ, why does the vehicle stop and park on TTL with it’s lights on the mailboxes where TM is sheltering? And at the exact position that fits with the NEN call GZ made? There isn’t a whole lot of traffic to confuse GZ’s vehicle with during this time. So the presumption would be that it’s him, and that he never did see TM by FT’s cut through. First he saw TM was sheltering at the mailboxes.

        To go out with his gun, he needs to say he just happened onto TM, which would be why he says he saw him walking by FT’s knowing there’s a shortcut there that all the kids use. While at the same time, he’s covering up the fact that he received notification, and wasn’t really on his way to the store. In fact he went out on an armed vigilante patrol.

        • I agree with all of that- GZ’s story about why he called the NEN has always sounde suspicious to me. His repeated way of beginning with allusions to the incident by taafe’s house is odd. Why not just say “I saw a suspicious person walking here etc”. On the day of rhe shooting, he hasn’t started in justifying his actions by conflating the teen’s movements with the specific incident at taafe’s yet tho.

          What’s worth noting is that it’s going to be difficult to prove in court that GZ was tipped off. Dee Dee and her dropped call are proof but maybe not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

          I also agree that GZ is the one whose actions after this possible tipoff are what truly matters but nonetheless this is a “person of interst” to the case that may or may not be found. It’s also possible this person had further actions after the alleged tipoff.

          But George is responsible for his own actions and that is a case that can be presented without having to involve a tipoff person.

          • Exactly as you say, tip off evidence is not needed. There are, however, even more discrepancies, if you accept GZ’s little FT cut through story. During the reenactment, GZ describes in enough detail how TM was moving through the area.
            GZ could not have watched these activities, taking place on his left, while he continued to drive on a road turning right. He’d have to have stopped and watched there.

            Then, driving over to park at the clubhouse as he claimed, would be suspect. It’s a 15 second drive for GZ and a 1 minute 20 second walk for TM. Yet, TM arrives only 5 seconds after GZ parks. Meaning that GZ slowly followed TM from FT’s over to where he parked. Of course, why in the world TM would not mention any of this to DD? That can only be explained by the fact that it only took TM 13 minutes to walk from 711 to the mailboxes, not just unimpeded, but hustled along by the threat of rain. So that all the while GZ’s story is being spun, TM was already sheltering at the mailboxes and had been for several minutes.

            The SP doesn’t need this impeachment material, because there’s enough more up ahead. When the jury gasps at the bail hearing fiasco, the ability of GZ to further spin false material will be dead. From that point on the jury will be looking at the evidence and ignoring GZ’s self serving claims. If the jury gets to see the SH interview, they’re going to be thoroughly disgusted with GZ and they will recoil from him in abject horror. If he tries to take the stand, I expect to see the jurors eyes become as wide as saucers as GZ walks towards the witness chair. MOM may try to call him back or ask for an adjournment, a recess or anything else he can think of, short of running from the courtroom himself.

            • One wonders what GZ told his lawyer. I seriously doubt he’s been truthful to anyone thus far. But O’mara is no fool. Most of George’s lies are easy enough to spot. I wouldn’t want to have O’mara’s job when it comes time to level with his client. But I’d love to see his face when his own lawyer tells him it’s time to beg for a plea deal.

  119. Witness 16 files are up. The composite is there. I learned a lot from this one.

    There are at least three steps in working with a witness before being able to knowledgeably compare them to each other. These would be identifying the events they saw, putting them in order, and finally assigning times. At some point I will have some questions for all of you about some of the important witnesses. That will be when I’m ready to go back through and refine them.

    I just have four more to finish up on in my first pass. Amanda, Jayne, Teresa, and Jeremy.

  120. Tchoupi. Amsterdam.

    I’m still waiting for y’all to look at that split screen vid of the security cams, see if you can parse the sync between the different views, and establish a best-guess start time for a time stamp.

    • I think the consensus opinion at present is that the four cameras are in sync with one another, but the start time is difficult to determine exactly since there isn’t an obvious event on the picture to link to the sound of the NEN recorded call.

      Since it’s almost 100% certain that these cameras all fed into one computer, I think the times are technically going to be in sync. The events on your very useful split screen seem to corroborate that as well, but if they are off, it’s only by seconds, and for inexplicably bizarre reasons. Cars seem to reliably come and go from window to window to outdoor view with regular intervals.

      As far as finding a sync point, the 911 caller who seems to have seen ofc TIm Smith outside her home on TTL seems to be as good as were are going to get. Tchoupi seems to favor this, and Amsterdam is trying to see if the SPD could actually be right about the 18 minute time shift, but neither are fully settled on a firm opinion.

      I myself don’t yet have an opinion, but am trying to find if a consensus can be reached on what is visible or not in the east pool camera given that there is a blind spot that may be covering GZ’s ability to move his car in one lane of TTL without being seen on the screen. I think the events Tchoupi marks as GZ’s car are correct with regard to the general timing.

      FWIW, the car that seems to be ofc Tim Smith’s does something unique IMO – it shows up screen right of the “snowman” of three stacked blobs of light for a sec. This could be as it is pulling up to the driveway of W3 on TTL.

      • There is a light event that is not on Tchoupi’s chart that happens around 34:06 in the east pool video. It seems to be emergency flashers bouncing off the buildings across the pond at screen right. There is a tell-tale window spot reflection (upper right edge of frame) that seems to light up just before cars pull down TTL, but in this case there is no car forthcoming. I wonder if this could be Tim Smith leaving W3’s driveway and circling around the end of TTL to RVC? Or it could be an emergency vehicle at the main gate… not sure yet. Seems late for T Smith, but you never know.

        Those buildings across the pond screen right are worth watching. The four way split screen cuts them off…. but keep in mind they are there! I like the four-way screen for making sense of the videos. I think a jury would too…

        • Nice catch Willis. I was so focus on the top left corner of the video that I missed the other corner. I may need to catch more of these to get patterns. It looks indeed like a police vehicle. I’ll have a look

          PS/ It is late for T. Smith no matter what you assume to be the start time.

          • Thanks…. I figured that was too late for T Smith’s arrival but wondered if somehow it was him making his way around to RVC by the southern route. But even that seems late.

            east pool combined diagram w tell tale reflection location noted

            Here’s an arrow pointing to where the “tell tale” reflection seems to show up. During this event I mention around 34:06 there is a VERY bright blue “ping” that seems somewhat unique. Perhaps it’s Fire dept or ambulance, who knows.

            But yes, in general the emergency flashers seems to travel across the pond and since the buildings there are mostly dark they show up on the right side of the screen at top, where illuminated areas like the pool and the closer townhomes lit by streetlights in front don’t show them as well, even tho they are closer.

            Do you have an opinion as to what the “Snowman and his fort” represent?

            "the snowman and his fort"

            I’m starting to think the snowman is the second or third unit south of W11’s home on the corner of TTL. The car you say is T Smiths ( i concur, BTW) manages to make a light event between the snowman and his fort that seems to be deeper into the background than other lights that shine as cars make way east. It’s pretty much the last moment you see that car do anything, and it may be a reflection off the street.

            • The light events on the building across the pond don’t seem to come from vehicles running west on RVC from the north gate. I would expect those lights to pop up 30sec+-15sec after a car is seen turning right from the north gate.

              I making the hypothesis that the light source is near the north gate as there is some instantaneous correlation. Indeed, there are indeed more instances of lighting of the buildings and they seem to appear right at the moment a car comes in.

              I’m still working on it and any suggestion is welcome. What I need to check is that the correlation is always valid and that there is not multiple locations the light source can be at that to create the same signal.

              Concerning the snowman light, it seems to me that it is front porch lights from 1211 or 1221 and possibly 1231 TTL.

              Concerning the constant flare on the top left corner, it is a light bulb located near the south east corner of the clubhouse building. You can better see it on the West Pool video.

    • Whonoze,

      I thought I already answered to the questions.
      I had a loo and found it really useful. I actually put a link to my imgur page to your video.

      Concerning how sync the vids are, I’m 100% confident they are in sync down to the second. As example, if a car goes one way, you’ll get a sequence of light events on two videos with a typical delay between the two (1 vid has the event a few seconds before the other one). If a car goes the other way, you reverse the sequence and the delay.

      Concerning the start time. My try challenging my opinion that is that the start time is between 6:46:00 & 6:46:30. But, honestly speaking, that opinion hasn’t budged much.
      I appreciate Amsterdam’s effort and I believe that she is right to challenge the start time. However, even the latest evidence dump reinforced my initial evaluation: 1) Wit #3 connection time is confirmed, and 2) LEO Smith times for DIS & ARV in response to Wit #3 suggest he really was by her house around 7:17:40.
      Check on http://imgur.com/a/bcAII. I have put an evaluation of the view range Wit #3 can have from her front bedroom. It suggests that she probably did not caught T. Smith on RVC. I also listened again to her 911 call, it indicates that the police officer was in her sight for at list 30sec and during that time the location of the officer was bothering her.
      Amsterdam vid is interesting but something bothers me when the start time is assumed to be at 6:48. What bother me is that we end up with GZ telling dispatcher Sean that the suspect is coming to check him out while driving east himself. It makes no sense to me.
      That said, I’m still not done with my reevaluation, or questionings of my initial evaluation of the start time. Question my own view is a hard process. But a sincerely want to do it. It may take some time.
      I believe that Amsterdam also concluded that the start time would be earlier than 6:48. I think she is now proposing ~6:47:30.

      • “I’m 100% confident they are in sync down to the second.”
        From a video editing standpoint, a second is a lot. (30 frames a second, 60 fields). I guess my question is whether the sync could be improved at all, so that ‘light events’ that traverse all four views clearly do so in the correct order to the best extent possible.

        My hope is that the split screen would make it easier for ‘regular folks’ to understand what you’re talking about. ‘Close’ might work for your purposes, but might not be clear enough to help the more casual viewer.

        Since I’m assuming those who wanted it have gotten that split screen vid by now, I’ll take it down. I’ll put one up soon that has the full frames, not the tighter detail sections.

        • Thanks for the help, whonoze. Of course, if the prosecution wanted to use these videos in court or as part of an investigation, they would shoot a day time test to confirm where the cameras are pointed and a night time test with similar vehicles and lighting conditions to see if they can replicate events such as a Uturn on TTL at the relevant time to challenge GZ’s narrative.

          The idea that one computer is probably the source of the four (wrong) times tends to suggest they are all operating off the same clock and are thus in sync. It’s a lot more work to make them OUT of sync than it is to dump them all from camera to hard drive all at once, using the computer’s internal clock from the operating system.

          Of course, a simple test would confirm this. (Too bad we’re not in charge huh? lol) What is the exact source of the investigator’s working knowledge of the time-gap at present? Are they taking the landlord’s word for it, or did they send in their own tech to confirm the lag? I’m guessing this “investigating” was done over the telephone.

          A split screen with the east pool hall as a large element would maybe be most useful since it seems to be the one with discernable details that matter. The rest seem to just be more or less for timing and direction – not detail.

          I think you mentioned above a sequence of events that seemed out of sync – I’ll try to go an look it over and offer my two cents. Thanks again for doing this.

  121. Today while thinking about something else I realized it was W19’s dog howling, crying, whining that the other witnesses confused with human vocalizations. No child in the fight.

    Here’s how it occurred to me. W13 says: “And we were just sitting there and we heard a couple of guys… or we heard voices outside. And at first it sounded like dogs.”

    Later he is asked how long from dog sounds to gunshot.
    Crosby: And you said it was less than a minute between the time you first heard the commotion and you heard the shot?
    W13: Yeah.
    Crosby: Okay.
    W13: It was less than a minute.

    When Serino timed w19 pulling her dog back inside and walking upstairs to where she heard the shot it was also 1 minute.

    I’m thinking w12, and w13 identified the dog. Further, everybody who talked about cries, whining, and little children were imagining humans while hearing a dog. I can explain. But for now I’m just going to say that when we remove all the dog sounds, cries, whining, child’s voices from the witness statements, and GZ’s Help Help Me Rhonda, we know we have Trayvon screaming “help” and bloody murder.

    This simplifies the work ahead. We need to know when W19’s dog was out. Are there any of his cries or whines mixed in on the first 911 call?

    • W19 was outside at the same time as John.She said she went back inside and closed the door, as soon as she heard John say he was calling 911. So 12 and 13 possible, but I don’t think Selma and Mary.

  122. The next step after studying individual witnesses is to pair them by households. Their testimonies mention each other and work together. Pairs are 1/2, 4/14/15, 5/16, 6/17, 7/10, 11/20, and 12/13. I would also pair Dee and Trayvon. Trayvon will eventually have a column in my spreadsheet along with DeeDee and George Zimmerman. But GZ’s column will be what he actually did, nothing that he says. I believe everybody but him.

    • @Jay, “But GZ’s column will be what he actually did, nothing that he says. I believe everybody but him.” Hah! Love that approach. It’s rather hard lining up any element of his statements with the rest of the evidence. Can’t just cherry pick, so let’s scrap his whole testimony (sorry, testimonies, plural).

      • “But GZ’s column will be what he actually did, nothing that he says. I believe everybody but him.”

        “LOL” worthy, indeed.

        Hey, I heard RZ Jr. made some statement about GZ bleeding out of his ears. Is this a new statement?

        • GZ’s brother, Robert just gave an interview with the local Fox LA affiliate to read an apology to the Martin family. He’s careful to say that he’s not talking on behalf of his brother (per the bond order). The bleeding out of the ears comment should not be taken literally. He was referring to what he had heard initially. In the context of the interview, I don’t think he’s saying that as an actual fact. I think the rumor flying amongst family members (based on GZ’s exaggerations I’m sure) was that GZ was badly beaten that “blood was coming out of his ears”. The comment is in the second clip (the 8:30 minute clip).
          http://www.myfoxla.com/story/19623255/robert-zimmerman-discusses-his-brother-and-the-trayvon-martin-case

          • I thought this was the intelligent brother? “We are sorry your son passed away” passed away? The reporter says this new statement neither supports GZ defense or raises empathy for GZ ….just a tepid nothing opportunity devoid of any empathy for his brother, (if he did in fact feel he was attacked and now his life is horribly ruined) or feelings toward TM’s loved ones if he’s now realizing with no DNA on GZ’s gun, his brother murdered a teen.

            Is everyone in GZ ‘s world lacking in common sense?

            • Quote from RZ: “As Trayvon’s family remembers him, I would want them to know that at that time each of us prayed for him and each of us in our own way remembered him as well.”
              I think he went a little too far in this apology. Just say “We’re sorry” period. How could they remember TM, who they’ve never met? Given their staunch believe that GZ would have died at TM’s hands means that their “own way” of remembering TM is as a “thug”. They can never reconcile that with the Martin family. This brother is the most well-spoken of the bunch, but he seems to only surface after media fiascos. First after the dad, Joe Oliver and Taaffe had made a mess of things, and now after Osterman. Problem is, it’s always a little too late, and he doesn’t seem to have a close relationship with GZ. He was nowhere near GZ before or after the shooting, so whatever he says is useless. I think his role in damage control right now is his face. He says “I look like my brother, We’re not white and will never be white.” I guess they felt that needed to be reiterated after seeing the Ostermans on Dr. Phil’s stage with a HugeA$$ picture of the GZ’s gun in the background.

            • I think it’s cute they think having brown skin means they can’t be racist, lol. “Most of us are brown, so we can’t be racists, and we aren’t white – to hell with the fact that Latino/Hispanic is considered part of the white race – we’re brown, dammit!”

              I really don’t see why they just don’t stop already. No amount of “reintroduction” is going to take away the past. It made me sick how he tried to make that whole family out to be victims. Sorry that your brother acted like an idiot – be pissed at him. It’s no one else’s fault. They are so stuck to the everyone is out to get us and everyone else is violent BS it’s pathetic.

              Let’s go to trial already!

          • That family needs to learn to stop talking. Do they think any of this helps them? Keep acting like the victim Zimmerman family. It won’t change a thing.

      • I wouldn’t eliminate them entirely, since that might give the impression to viewers/readers, that GZ might have told the truth. Instead I’d give his stories a section all their own and tag them to the evidence and times they belong to.

  123. I feel like I am getting up to speed regarding the issue of the clubhouse videos, finally. What seems certain to me is that a car arrives around the same interval-time as another, and that these two cars are probably (almost definitely IMO) George Zimmerman and ofc Tim Smith. Both cars behave in a manner that fits a plethora of other evidence that is known, and the car that seems to be GZ’s makes a U-Turn on TTL to face the side of the clubhouse where the mail kiosk is. This single action alone proves in yet another good way that GZ lied to investigators about the manner in which he and Trayvon Martin traveled from the clubhouse area towards the cut thru path. Is this proof of murder? Not by itself, but it is proof that GZ has no credibility and is engaged in what is a likely pattern of lies that show he cannot be trusted in what he says elsewhere.

    I also think that the clubhouse videos are not starting at the correct time, and that the 18 minute figure is CLOSE but not exact for the time-shift. I don’t think it will be possible to PRECISELY align the sync point between the NEN call recording and the clubhouse videos, but a good estimate will come close, within a 30 second window if we continue to work at it. Split screens help, and having more than one person check the math, etc will help. What helps most of all is just to sit down and do the headache-inducing deductive work of continuing to dig thru all the clues. Tchoupi deserves an employee of the season parking spot and a paid vacation, were this a private detective agency. Amsterdam is keeping him honest and on his toes and also has contributed a great deal to my own understanding of what may have happened that night.

    I’m baffled by the lack of a visual on what I think should be there – a second U turn for GZ, but there are easy and likely explanations for that, mainly including his not turning his headlights on right away, as well as a huge blind spot on the east pool camera that I’m pretty sure Tchoupi and Amsterdam will agree is blocking part of our view of TTL where it counts the most.

    I also think a “reasonable person” ie, a potential juror could be made to see the theory behind this and that it would be useful in a court of law to present this video evidence. I don’t know for certain how a defense lawyer would act to introduce reasonable doubt into the equation but I am willing to be that SOME jurors might accept that this is not by itself, proof “beyond a reasonable doubt” that GZ made a suspicious U turn he isn’t telling the truth about. But as a supporting idea to what else the prosecution can present in that area, it’s a solid way to help sway a jury. Some might be able to follow the idea that walking times, Dee Dee and the timing of the NEN call prove GZ is lying on it’s won, and others might have difficulty seeing that argument but become convinced after seeing these videos. I think a jury would have a consensus opinion in the end however if shown all of the evidence in a coherent and clear manner.

    What I don’t know is this: will the prosecution even bother to present this video evidence in court?

    They have plenty of other potential strategies to pursue to reach a guilty verdict, and may not feel the need to go this far. If they do, I’d expect to see some basic testing of the cameras as very strong evidence to support the conclusions reached – meaning a re-enactment with wet-down of the pavement at night and using a similar car to show what GZ’s vehicle did, plus reference shots of the daytime view.

    (An investigative reporter could make a halfway decent television report for a program like 20/20 or 60 minutes, etc. if they had the cooperation of the landlord to shoot a comparison. And I’d give my right arm to see a daytime view of what these camera angles really show.)

    I’ll write another paragraph separately on the details and timings for those who are caught in the details, but I wanted to say all this for those who are more casually examining this issue and tend to wait until there is a bigger consensus. I’m trying to add my voice to that general consensus and give my opinion that this is all starting to “check out” as tchoupi is saying, and as Amsterdam is as well – the two events highlighted do seem to be George and the cop who put the handcuffs on him, the first policeman on the scene. I don’t wish to speak for others but I think there are more who are “on board” with all this. Quibbling over which minute or 30 second window best fits the videos is minor, really. But I bet we will all agree soon, within a close enough margin of error that it won’t matter anyway.

    • The hypothesized ‘second’ TTL u-turn is important to our curiosity, but it’s nowhere near as important in evidenciary terms as the first. GZ has said he left his truck parked on the wrong side of TTL facing the ‘T’. At SOME point there should be witness testimony or dashboard cams or something confirming where and how it was parked. I’m sure upwards of a dozen people had to have seen it before SZ and MO moved it.

      What the vids can confirm is that not just that GZ was lying in the re-enactment, but that he took inappropriate actions. If he WAS parked on TTL facing the mailboxes, he HAD to have made a U-Turn to face the T (which presumably will be established as it’s final parking point), and it most likely occurs at the point in the NEN call where you hear a sound like a person in a nylon jacket turning a steering wheel. This aggressive following, which would have preceded the “Fucking Coons” curse by only a short interval, would certainly go to the ‘depraved mind’ methinks.

    • I believe that the clubhouse video can prove beyond doubt that GZ never parked at the front of the the clubhouse. This itself is enough to demolish GZ’s narrative of how suspicious TM’s behavior was that night. It is also enough to give greater importance to DeeDee’s narrative concerning how GZ’s behavior was suspicious.

      I believe that the clubhouse vids can’t prove beyond any doubt that GZ parked facing the clubhouse. If brought to court it will be shot down because you cannot tell if that’s GZ’s car. What you can say is that at around the time of the NEN call there was at least one car on RVC & TTL having funny behaviors such as stopping by the mailboxes.

      Concerning the hypothesis stating that GZ made another u-turn to finally face east before TM runs is not supported by the videos. Whether his truck was facing east or west is just matter of interpretation.
      To me, it makes a lot of sense that GZ was facing west during his NEN call given what he says. Equally, it doesn’t make sense to me that GZ rushes out his truck to keep an eye on TM after seeing him running toward the east gate if his truck was facing east. Without the need to make a uturn, he could have been driving to the east gate in 30sec and guard it.

      Concerning the video start time at 6:48, I have still some trouble with it. Amsterdam video is great but I feel uncomfortable with the following:
      GZ is stopped by the mailboxes when he tells dispatcher Sean “now he’s coming toward me” and then takes off. [I have no problem with that part as it makes sense]
      Then while driving on TTL heading east he says “Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is.” and GZ sounds more scared. [That makes no sense to me. GZ is driving and the suspect is behind him on foot].
      Finally, as he parks, assuming he made no u-turn, GZ tells Sean “These assholes, they always get away”. [This makes no sense either – The suspect can only be behind him and GZ had no reason to park]

      I have other issues with the 6:48 start time that is related to T. Smith arrival but you all know my position on this.

      • I d on’t feel comfortable with 6:48 either. I am not really sure about the nen call beginning at 7:09:34 either. I think the conversation may have begun as late as 7:09:58.

        • You’re making some excellent questioning Amsterdam!

          I think we can answer to the NEN start time by lining it up with dispatcher Sean’s logging times.

          The NEN call log has the following statements:
          A) 7:11:59 – SUBJ NOW RUNNING TOWARDS BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX
          B) 7:13:12 – COMPL WILL 1056 AT MAILBOXES OF COMPLEX
          C) 7:13:41 – COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056

          A) The event logged at 7:11:59 was told at ~ 2:20 in the NEN.
          B) The meeting point logged at 7:13:12 was decided at ~ 3:43 in the NEN.
          C) GZ’s change of mind logged at 7:13:41 was expressed at ~ 3:53 in the NEN.

          Lets run the math to find out about when the conversation started:
          A) 7:11:59 – 2:20 = 7:09:39
          B) 7:13:12 – 3:43 = 7:09:29
          C) 7:13:41 – 3:53 = 7:09:48

          In events A & C, dispatcher Sean is reacting to GZ’s statements. So, he’s logging of it can only be with delays. Therefore, the start time has to be earlier than estimated.
          In event B, dispatcher Sean could have written the log ahead of GZ’s answer. So, I’m not sure there was a delay. If there was one then, the NEN call may have started even earlier than 7:09:34. In any cases, I don’t see it starting after 7:09:39.

          • At 1:14 in the nen Sean has all the info contained in the creation time entry. Last info was late teens. I think I can hear the enter key at that time.
            If I subtract the 1:14 from the time of that entry 7:11:12, I get a start time of 7:09:58. If I got the enter key wrong, it could be earlier, but not later then 7:09:58.

          • Ok, good. So we should keep the 7:09:34 time. That makes me very happy. That could be an indication that the connection times may be the actual times the conversations begin.

            • Yes. I’m for keeping the 7:09:34 time. Plus or minus a few seconds is not going to win this case unless someone is willing to sync (at a minimum) all of the following computers:

              – sheriff’s department computers
              – sherriff’s department phone system computers
              – spd computers
              – spd phone system computers
              – spd radio dispatch computers
              – spd cell phone provider computers (pic of Zimmerman)
              – RATL monitoring service computers
              – RATL phone system computers

              This would be in addition to verifying those syncs were in place on 2/26/12 and adjustments hadn’t been made to any of the sync schedules after the night of the murder.

              Sync is not probably a good word for what’s needed here. Verification of each source’s timestamp is needed first before a sync can be attempted. Again, a few seconds here and there don’t help either the prosecution or the defense.

              The ONLY time seconds matter, IMO, is in synching DeeDee’s call to the NEN.

          • I received a message on my YT vid of the 911 start times noting that some police departments use a 911 call log system that creates the log time before the operator types anything (or maybe hits the first key of anything) rather than waiting for the return key. The ‘return’ merely resets the logging.

            However, based on the way they created the bogus timeline that appeared in Chris Serino’s police report, I doubt the SPD has that kind of system. (If they did, that could account for the ‘earliness’ of event B, but not the ‘lateness’ of other events.)) Putting it all together, I think we should stay with the connection times, and base any subsequent timings on the duration into the recording of their occurrence.

            • “I think we should stay with the connection times, and base any subsequent timings on the duration into the recording of their occurrence.”

              Exactly. That’s all we have available. Since Amsterdam and TCHoupi have a slight difference on *times* on the NEN calls, we either have to assume slack on our own computers or redactions/inconsistent redactions whereby sometimes we hear dead noise and sometimes we hear evidence of splices.

      • “Concerning the hypothesis stating that GZ made another u-turn to finally face east before TM runs is not supported by the videos. Whether his truck was facing east or west is just matter of interpretation.”

        No, it’s a matter of empirical fact that could have been observed by anyone driving down TTL after GZ left the truck, including the Officer who logged the license plate number, and any dash-cams. Even for a fabulator like Z., it makes no sense to say he left his truck parked in a position and direction that could easily be proved to be false. There’s also no benefit to his story in saying he parked on the wrong side of the street, so it makes no sense that he does so unless he WAS actually on the wrong side of the street

        “It doesn’t make sense to me that GZ rushes out his truck to keep an eye on TM after seeing him running toward the east gate if his truck was facing east.”

        Expecting GZ — who can’t rermember the address of the clubhouse, can’t produce the name of the street he’s on during the NEN call, and can’t manage a truly coherent description of where his truck is parked — to make sense in any of his actions, is folly. He seems to be mildly under the influence to begin with, and once Trayvon walks toward the truck, his adrenaline rush is out of control. He’s parked roughly in mid-block facing West, so when TM passes him, he turns the truck around to maintain a clear view of ‘the suspect’. When he sees Trayvon, he doesn’t think things over, he just gets out of the truck and starts chasing as a reflex reaction. I think he gets the idea to continue over to RVC to cut-off the East Gate escape route after he realizes TM is too far down the poorly lit sidewalk between the backs of the townhomes.

        • Indeed, if the officer who took the license plate remembers where and in what direction the truck was parked then he is a valuable witness. My point is that you cannot use the cctv as a firm evidence for that matter.

          Is GZ even aware of what police knows concerning his truck? Did he even develop his narrative based on what police can or cannot know.
          The fact is that he put himself in a situation where his narrative forced him to claim things that can be proven wrong like parking in front of the clubhouse, moving to TTL on dispatcher’s request for keeping an eye on the subject, or exiting his truck to look for an address…
          So, parking on the left side of the road looks logical when following his narrative, but it may also be contradicted by a witness or some other evidences.

          Finally, per my recollection, GZ stated the direction he parked only at the reenactment. By that time he knew his wife took his truck back home. He may have thought that police never even noticed his truck.

        • Whether Zimmerman got out of the truck as it faced either towards the mailbox or towards the cut-through only adjusts his journey (and timing) by a couple of seconds at most. Both vehicle position options can be argued as intimidating/harassing. Zimmerman can make the same statements on the NEN while his vehicle faces either direction while parked on TTL.

          That’s probably why he changed his story (as WillisNewton points out) from one location to the other. IIRC, Zimmerman moved his marker from TTL to RVC/clubhouse.

  124. Here is a DL link to a splitscreen with the four relevant camera views at full frame.
    [video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidwide.mp4" /]

    Again, this is just a temporary hosting in my Dropbox, so anyone interested should download it soon because it’s too big to keep there. If we ever settle on a ‘best version’, I’ll put it on YT then.

    To be clear: I don’t have the attention focus right now, and enough familiarity with parsing the light patterns, to look at the time relationships between the different cameras to see if they are definitively out of sync by a bit. It’s just an impression I get, where sometimes the progressions of things happening from one screen to the next seem odd or out of order. But I don’t have specifics. So I’m asking the people who have more familiarity with this footage and more patience for it to take a really close look at the sync. This wouldn’t involve painstakingly watching the whole thing, just finding three or four determinative exemplars, and going over them closely. One thing we can usually assume with any modern form of video recording is that there is no time slip. Once two clips are lined up correctly in sync at the beginning, they should stay in sync as long as the cameras are running.

    I take the point that all the footage may have been recorded on the same computer, which you’d think would have time-code stamped everything to the same clock. But I’m guessing some human being had to go into the files and select segments to extract, and then to convert from the native form of security system into some sort of AVI that loses any time code from the system. And just from observing the general level of technological cluelessness that surrounds this case, I’m guessing that person that extracted the clips wasn’t that careful about the start times, perhaps only marking them to the second, not the frame, which would leave a lot of room for error the way I would want to look at it.

    I do think getting the clock time right, or as close as possible, as well as getting the sync as close as possible, could matter a lot, though. (I wouldn’t be doing this for the hell of it. Each of those split screen vids take like a whole day to render.) Perhaps rather than a window, you guys could agree on maybe two or three different ‘most-plausible’ clock times, and I could put all three counters on screen?

    • I am sorry whonoze,

      I needed to take a little break from the videos. Can you tell me where you think the videos are out of synch? The events I have been focussing on seem in synch to me.

      • @Amsterdam: I feel for you. I’ve got a splitting headache from looking at these clubhouse videos.

        @whonoze: that headache would be a lot worse if we didn’t have your patience and rendering work to help make sense of this….

        re: sync between the four cameras as seen in the video:

        It seems to me as though the best place to test the sync between cameras would be between the kitchen and game room cams, since they look at a common window, although from different angles to the street. To judge them all, I’d look for a car that came from Taafe’s house and then turned down TTL – like for instance George’s likely car. That hits all the cams. This car path happens once again at the end, starting at 44:34.

        IMO they seem fine, and if they are 29 video frames or less off then they are still less than one second off. There’s no way to be sure unless there was a lightning strike outdoors…. but they appear in sync to me.

  125. from my latest notes on movements from clubhouse to cut thru as seen in clubhouse videos:

    I put up a small set of photo illustrations regarding what I call the “telltale flash” that seems to signal a southbound vehicle at the front gate. Could be a useful clue. It seems to help separate and confirm southbound and northbound vehicles on TTL at the least.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157631628698546/with/8026707966/

    I think that the arrival times of GZ and Tim Smith are established with regard to the interval between the two events, and that we know which cars in the east pool video are them. What we don’t know and cant know for certain at present is the exact time that the camera’s clock is off by.

    Using the “telltale flash” and other means of showing the arrival of first responders, we ought to be able to assign probable names to event on the video – post GZ and Tim Smith’s arrivals. Has anyone made notes already on when the other officers arrive and is there a consensus on this within those who post here?

    My strong hunch at this point regarding the best guess at figuring out the best estimated sync point for picture and sound has to do with something GZ said to investigators at one point, and that is that he tells the story of calling the NEN while driving, then parking, and then speaking to an operator seemingly. I don’t put a whole lot of stock in the precise sequence since he’s lying about where this happened, but it does seem like he may just be lying about the where, and not the general sequence of events.

    What he said was: “I called the non emergency line, and then when i got thru i parked at the clubhouse…” If you discount his false narrative about the clubhouse parking lot, but figure he’s saying that instead he was in motion when he first dialed, and stopping or stopped when he reached Sean, maybe that is a rough “sync point” to try as a guesstimate. I need to go thru his various statements and see if he mentions this exact sequence the same way at other times or not. He’s such a bullshit artist. But he may accidentally be leaving us a clue here.

    I also think it’s worth charting to examine the emergency flashers that seem to show up on the backs of the Long Oak Way townhouses across the pond from the clubhouse pool video camera that show up on screen right.

    For now, my hunch is that Sgt Raimondo is at the gate around 34:00 and his flashers are seen on the east pool video at 34:09 best but both before and after that moment. If you place the timing around 6:46 give or take 30 seconds, it’s ballpark for having him arrive at 2821 RVC at 7:20:48 as in noted in the evidence. I think he came to the front gate, entered and turned right on RVC shortly before that time.

    What any of this says about the exact time-lag on the clubhouse videos is still unclear to me, but I agree we are ballpark close already in saying 6:46 to 6:47:30 as likely times. I am tending to think the earlier time is closer to correct, but want to study it all more.

    • correction to above: Raimondo turned to his LEFT (not right on a map) onto RVC, heading east to 2821 RVC.

      also,
      What is known about LEO Ayala’s timing? he seems to have been dispatched to respond to GZ at first, then switched over to W3. But when did he get to the gate or get to 2821 RVC?

      The next “Tell tale” window flash and seeming emergency flashers on the east pool video are starting around 35:18. This ought to be him, I think. If so, it puts his arrival at front gate using the 6:46 start point at about 7:21:18 aprox.

        • Right, tchoupi… I saw that. It seems to have times for Ayala’s responding to GZ’s NEN call, then switching to W3 but not his arrival. We do know he got there after Raimondo and before whomever was next, so that’s a window of time right there.

          what other clues I’m working with include:

          Rescue and the cop car with Wagner and Robertson arrived at the same time.

          Santiago arrived after the crime tape was up, but while W13 was still inside it.

          Taylor and McCoy were there before Rescue. Tape was NOT up when Taylor arrived as he helped put it up.

          Wagner and Robertson arrived as CPR was being performed, and RObertson helped set up the crime scene tape.

          At 7:22:10, Ayala is there at the crime scene according to page 10 of 33 of the most recent discovery dump documents. (radio log)

          Radio log on pg 11 has more timing clues as to arrivals of LEOs, all post-the initial trio of Smith, Raimondo and Ayala.

          at 19:20:11 “FD staging” which may mean fire department was staging (arriving and getting their gear on site) [see page 14 of 33]

          19:19:52 – Ayala “DIS” which I assume means dispatched aka sent to go there

          that’s what I have for now. Thanks for your work.

          • Amsterdam is right: Ayala is 2nd on scene.

            Ayala never logged his ARVs. He closed his DIS to GZ’s NEN with a PEU and then immediately logged a DIS & ENR to Wit #3’s 911 call. He did all that at 7:19:52. So, he must have done it when parking by Smith’s car.

            I don’t know to what Raimondo was initially responding to. However, as for Ayala, he must have been parked near the crime scene when at 7:20:46 he logged it all (DIS, ARV & ENR) to Wit #3’s 911 call.

            If anyone has an English/LEO translation book it would be really helpful to share it. My best guess is DIS stands for Dispatched & ARV stands for Arrived. I have no clue on EVM, PEU & ENR. REM seems to mean Remark.

            I don’t remember JaneW18 telling anything about police arrival after LEO Smith. If she did then, we got a to-the-second arrival time for Ayala & Raimondo.
            I remember JaneW18 saying something about TM being a young kid. This can only be after they flipped him over for rendering CPR. This might be the best evaluation of the time LEO Raimondo was on scene.

            • I trust you guys if you both say Smith is first, then Ayala, then Sgt Raimundo. I think Smith is at the gate at or around 30:24 with his emergency flashers on as seen in the east pool screen right edge, with the townhomes lighting up, and the telltale window flashing.

              The next to arrive is (whomever) at 33:19. The telltale flash first spotted in this time period – seems to continue till past 34:09 as one episode. 34:09 is the bright blue-ish flash at the telltale window.

              Then there is a short lull between activity until at 35:18 the telltale flash and faint blue on Long Oak Way town houses light up again. At 35:12 in the game room camera a car passes on TTL heading south towards clubhouse but doesn’t appear on TTL in eastpool cam. I assume that means it turns onto RVC like the one before it did. I guess this is the arrival of Raimondo.

              Now I have a big headache. And I agree with almost all of what tchoupi said above except I still think there was a car-to-pedestrian chase down TTL as Dee Dee said in her Crimp/ABC news interview, and the timing of the “long tail” suggests. Either GZ had his lights off or drove in reverse before getting out of his car. The blind spot prevents us from knowing for certain. If he backed up in the north lane of the E-W section of TTL, we’d never know it, but he would have the same reason for jumping out of the car – faster way to keep a visual than making a second U turn or heading to the back entrance. I don’t think GZ wanted to allow this “suspicious person” a chance to go out the back gate at all. It’s like he’s swatting at a fly that has already left the table out of frustration, if you can pardon the ugly nature of that metaphor. He’s frustrated and that much seems clear from his tone of voice alone. I tend to think his “effing punks/goon/cold/c**n comment is in response to LOSING his visual as TM rounded the corner into the dog walk. His later statement that “he ran” only confirms what has already happened.

              Proving the first U turn to a jury might be difficult but I think it should be attempted. We “all seem to think” it’s what’s going on…. more or less. It darn sure makes more sense to me than George;s contradictory accounts. Yes, a defense lawyer can introduce reasonable doubt but he can never fully dispel the idea that it’s possible. The list of possibles will add up to a big probable IMO. People are convicted on circumstantial evidence every day if it’s the most likely story and the defense never introduces ENOUGH reasonable doubt.

            • I think ENR means enroute. Actually w18 breaks down, when they turn Trayvon over to begin CPR. Raimondo was the first ofc. to begin CPR and the time is logged. So if we can decide which car was Raimondo’s, we should be able to allign the audio of w3 and w18 with the arrival of the cars
              The interesting thing about w18 is that she called Trayvon a kid long before they turned him around.

            • That’s another good point you’re making. She may have heard GZ & Smith talking.

              Key time moments from JaneW18:
              At 4:29 (7:21:35) Dispatcher tells JaneW18 that there are 2 officers on scene.
              At 4:47 (7:21:54) JaneW18 tells dispatch that there is another officer. That’s 1 min after LEO Raimondo logged his ARV.
              At 5:03 (7:22:09) JaneW18 tells dispatcher that the officers are right on the person and he killed someone.
              At 6:02 (7:23:08) janeW18 tells that GZ is walked to the away.

            • i think officers should all wear some sort of recording mechanism so when they leave the car and are on a case their discussions with others are recorded and they can also just talk to themselves to make sure when they write up reports they get times or any other info they think is valuable on record. Of course if it is just a routine stop or non violent crime where it is not imperative that they get every detail exact they could maybe reset and wipe it at the end of the night, but any homicide or violent crime would stay on record and they could listen back to their thoughts, observations, times and conversations when writing up reports and not have to rely on recall at stressful times and might eliminate mistakes or cover ups etc. I might patent it…..i will call it “the voice recorder”….oh wait a second someone beat me to it lol. But seriously they have dash cams and it wouldn’t be too expensive to set officers and investigators up with these things. Kinda like a black-box for crime scene investigations like they have for air crash investigations.

            • Good idea, it wouldn’t even require them to carry more than a one ounce mic and video cam. Just enough signal to reach their car, which would boost the signal, encrypt it, and send it back to the command center. They could leave it off until they get a call, the command center would remind them to turn it on, on arrival. Only thing is, that would take a whole lot of discretion away from the officers at the scene. If they found things they believed to be either minor or created of misunderstanding, they may have to burden people with routine reactions that they ordinarily wouldn’t bother with.

              I mean, just imagine officers responding to the wrong address for a domestic dispute. The curious homeowner, thoughtlessly steps outside with an open can of beer. Normally the police, realizing their mistake, would leave the guy alone. But with the new system they probably couldn’t do that, the mistaken call would result in the arrest of a guy who had done nothing but be caught off guard, by their surprised arrival at his door. Egad!

            • @jo – How’s your nephew doing? I’ve been thinking of him, and I hope he’s still doing well.

              @Amsterdam, tchoupi, whonoze, willisnewton (and everyone else) working with the vids – A big, huge thank you from me to you all; I don’t have the patience or knack for them. I greatly appreciate the time you all take working with them.

            • Yeah. Thank you guys for studying up the vids!

              I’ll settle for GZ driving a bulldozer into the mail shed and yelling at Trayvon, “What’s your goon ass doing in my honky ass mail shed?”

            • hi qetno. He is doing ok, still in hospital and has had 2 more surgeries. His heel isn’t getting blood so they are experimenting before they make the decision to amputate. Poor kid is going stir crazy. Thank you for caring, you are a real sweetie xx

  126. Witness 17 files are in place.

    They are just her FDLE interview with John Batchelor and the composite formed by putting the Batchelor interview in chrono order and interleaving it with w6’s 911 call.

    • Ok, I finally listened to RZ’s radio interview. It seems to be another Fox affiliate.
      While RZ keeps claiming to NOT talk on behalf of his brother regarding specifics of the case, he does keep talking about it.
      *****
      At 15:20, RZ says that he was “chased out of a mall” once when he went to buy coffee and used his debit card. He mentions that a security guard “who happened to be black” said something like “of all the malls to be in George Zimmerman comes to ours” and pointed out where George was supposed to have been spotted, but it turned out to be Robert who was leaving (so I don’t think he was “chased”, but love his choice of words.)
      *****
      At 18:30, RZ was asked if he could tell who was yelling help on the tapes. He said it was clear it it’s GZ. Their father swore and signed an affidavit saying it was GZ. However, at about 19:10, the radio host says “I can’t tell who it is” and RZ contradicts himself and says “I can’t tell either.” and proceeds to accuse the Martin family of changing their stories regarding whether they believed it was their son.
      *****
      At 20:00, RZ says that GZ walked the neighborhood on foot and that he never “patrolled” in a car. OK, he never lived there, he wouldn’t really know. Doesn’t this contradict at least one witness who ACTUALLY lived in the neighborhood saying that he used to creep around the neighborhood with his lights off? (or was it lights on?).
      *****
      At 26:30, when asked why did GZ ignore the dispatcher and got out of the car (this question as we know is faulty because GZ was already out of the car when asked if he was following), RZ talks about how GZ “stopped in his tracks” when the dispatcher said “we don’t need you to do that” regarding following TM. HMMM, how wide are GZ’s tracks anyway? 100 feet or so?
      *****
      RZ says that GZ is the kind of Catholic that goes to mass every Sunday. Wow, goes to church, mentors kids, shops for the family all on a Sunday. I wonder what Saint George does the rest of the week?

      http://www.kfiam640.com/player/?station=KFI-AM&program_name=podcast&program_id=BillCarroll.xml&mid=22478467

      • “At 20:00, RZ says that GZ walked the neighborhood on foot and that he never “patrolled” in a car. OK, he never lived there, he wouldn’t really know. Doesn’t this contradict at least one witness who ACTUALLY lived in the neighborhood saying that he used to creep around the neighborhood with his lights off? (or was it lights on?).”

        Yes. That contradicts with the person who said GZ would creep in his car with his lights off and go walking between that dog walk at night while flashing his flashlight around. In addition, George Zimmerman himself in one of his own fucking NEN call states he’s in his car watching “suspects” from a hidden spot. RZ who the fuck you trying to fool, fool?!

        I wish each time these people claimed they knew that was George that someone would play George’s statement “that doesn’t even sound like me.” Come again?

        Yeah, and I’m sure someone actually mistook RZ for GZ. *rolls eyes*

          • I think FT did say he patrolled, at least while walking the dog. I think RZ was just disputing the patrolling in a car, and kept insisting GZ was going shopping that night.

            At 12:45 forward in that interview, the radio host asks about GZ’s disparaging remarks about hispanics. RZ says, oh the “word” you’re referring to is “Mexicans” and “young people don’t always choose the wisest words.” What other word could he have used instead of Mexicans? Oh, I guess he should have said “Alien Residents” which could include any foreigner and Martians. RZ brushes off the comments as being only about Mexicans being unfamiliar with pedestrian laws in the US and getting hit a lot. Um, I think he says quite a bit more than that….http://www.myspace.com/onlytobekingagain

            • Oh, I don’t even need to check the myspace link (but thank you for including it); I remember very well his little rant. Nice attempt at a spin, but it was a fail. They really think they can make this all go away, huh? Too little, too late.

  128. OK, I forced myself to look at the security vids more closely, and i think they ARE in sync. I think I had been confused by the way light strikes one of the windows, (actually it might be a door). Anyway, I’m subjecting my computer to the tedious CPU intensive process of rendering in a time stamp with Tchoupi’s 6:46:17 start time. Given that he based this on the lights he took to be Ofc.Smith. It also seems to line up perfectly with GZ. That is, his u-turn on TTL appears to end just as he would have picked up the phone to make his NEN call. I should have a link for the stamped vid by this evening sometime.

    • When the render is done, I hope you plan to add the NEN call audio and maybe some of the other 911 calls as well. It’s still speculative but with w3’s audio and maybe w18 after, we could all judge if the sync is good.

      Again, I think the arrival at the gate times for Smith, Ayala and Raimondo are visible in the east pool cam background as colored lights playing on the buildings screen right.

      The distance from gate to 2821 RVC can be judged on google maps and plotted against the time it takes to make a similar drive in the “re-eneactment” video and estimations can be made based on those figures.

      I think Smith’s car is visible almost all the way up to W3’s door already. Arrival at 2821 RVC for the next two responders would have to be an estimate based on when they get to the gate plus how long it should take to get there via RVC.

      I’m curious what timings might be discerned after that – the Fire Department or ambulance, for instance? Sadly, the video ends so soon. I’ve not made a good enough study to know what might be expected to show up.

      • I’m putting in the NEN call, and segments of the 911 calls, all timed correctly to the master clock.

        One thing I hadn’t noticed before, since we were wrong on his call’s origin time: JohnW6 reports seeing two men walking around with flashlights well before Ofc. Smith gets there. There were only two living people there: JonW13 and GZ. Which means that GZ had a flashlight in his hand at the time. Would that have been the little one he dropped by the ‘T’ or the ‘tactical’ one that supposedly.
        wasn’t working?

        • The innocent explanation for this is that GZ dropped his keychain/flashlight when he was handcuffed or thereabouts.

          The not so innocent explanations are disturbing to think about, and have been commented on already.

          Absent a confession, we’re not likely to ever know. If at this or a later date GZ says he dropped them post-shooting, I wouldn’t believe him unless it was attached to a full confession that made sense.

          But the idea of two people with flashlights is something W18 seems to have seen as well. It’s worth thinking about. She may have seen W13 and Smith and thought they were both cops, or she may even have seen W13 and GZ with flashlights before she saw Smith at all. What do others think about this?

          Her timing on the two flashlights is something we are noting when trying to sync video and audio… I’ve not re-listened to her call with that in mind at present, but wanted to bring up the issues involved so others can weigh in on it. Is W18 corroborating John/W6’s statement or not?

        • The keychain can NOT have fallen when GZ was being arrested as it was seen on the ground long before the first police arrived, and is not at the spot he was arrested at.

          JonW13 said he saw the small hey/flashlight near the T when he went around the corner. This was after W18 saw GZ walk from the shooting to near the T. She also saw W13. The second light she saw may have been W13’s flashlight OR the flash/screen from his camera-phone.

          If W6 saw 2 flashlights, the keychain one must have been before GZ walked up to the T. The other, if it was W13, could not have been until half a minute later, when GZ and W13 walked back towards the shooting spot. However he just mentions seeing 2 flashlights, but not that he sees them simultaneously at the identical location.

          The second-latest evidence dump claimed the large light at the scene was NOT GZ;s but doesn’t say whose it is or how they claim to know this. GZ did have a big light at the time — it is the one he claims he was banging to get it going, and this found one is the one Serino tells him he DID get going. So if this is true, where is GZ’s light? how did it get swapped for one belonging to a neighbour? was that accidental or deliberate? which neighbour?

          • @aussie – Wow, I missed that about the big light taken into evidence not being GZ’s. If this is the light that was tested for blood evidence then it makes me wonder if GZ’s would have tested positive. I’m very curious now.

            Could you direct me to exactly where this piece of info was presented? I need to go back now!

            • @qetno –

              Ditto that request. This could be yet another disaster for Zimmerman if his other flashlight is missing and if the flashlight tested for Zimmerman’s DNA couldn’t possibly have been the one he used to ding up his head. No wonder no DNA was found on somebody else’s flashlight (if that’s what SPD or FDLE found)!

            • I couldn’t find any conclusions about EXCLUDING GZ as the owner of the flashlight, except that no DNA was found on it. I always thought the rain would have washed off epithelial cells (less abundant and easier to wash off than sticky blood). Maybe they should swab the inside of the flashlight and batteries for the DNA test.

          • Where in the evidence did you see the big flaslight did not belong to GZ? The investigator that was put on the stand during the first bond hearing, testified that both flashlights belonged to GZ.

          • W13/Jon took a photo of the tactical black non operating one.

            I think one of the cops mentioned seeing the keychain by the T.

            • Are you sure? I thought it was, in fact, the keychain flashlight on that he took a picture of at the scene.

              I’m not sure if one of the officers mentioned it, too, but Jon also stated he noticed the flashlight on at the T.

            • Yes @ WillisNewton. The large flashlight pic was near the body. It raises a red flag to me when W13’s recorded statement is twisted. “That was *one* flashlight that was there”.

              Absent a question as to how many, most people only specify “one” when there is more than one. The real interesting part of the interview is at 14:06 of the 3/20/12 interview.

              Not to distract, however… W13 clearly describes two distinct flashlights that he saw beginning at 11:20 in his 3/20/12 interview. He said he saw the tactical flashlight (near the body) “and then towards the corner on the sidewalk across from where that that poop station is, was like a little flashlight”. W13 goes on to explicitly state that TWO flashlights were there on scene.

              Aussie says its in the evidence dump that the large tactical one wasn’t Zimmerman’s. I await the page number and the dump number for that.

              WRT to seeing the small flashlight… Selma and her roommate (or was it W18) witnessed pacing, so Zimmerman could have planted the key chain flashlight by the T before W13 rounded the corner of his garage.

            • *****DNA testing of the flashlight.******
              In looking at the raw DNA data, what struck me was that the flashlight data was remarkably CLEAN. To me, the mystery isn’t just “Whose flashlight is it?”, it’s also “Why does it look like it’s been wiped down and bleached?” (FYI, there’s no evidence of bleach on it, I’m just saying that because bleach destroys DNA.)
              See page 25 of this report: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/2012/09/GZ-part5-Gorgone-FDLE-complete-report-0919.pdf
              That is, there was barely one tiny little blip barely above background. (When reading these graphs, note the scale on the lefthand side indicating the strength of the signal. When the signal is weak, the scale only goes from 0 – 100, and background is around 20-25 units; when the signal is strong it can go up to 500 or 5000) Hence the report says “No DNA results”. There was literally no detectable human DNA in that sample.

              Compare that with the DNA results of the swab sample that was taken from the trigger, which is another hard object like the flashlight, but think about how the surface area of the trigger is very small versus the flashlight. See page 59 of this report:

              Click to access GZ-FLDE-bio-evidence-2-0919.pdf

              Yet they were able to see the X and Y chromosome peaks and identify it as DNA from a human male from the trigger. Multiple other peaks were detected, even though the profile was incomplete to make a determination.

              ****WHY NO DNA?***
              1) Seems like the FDLE got a DNA report of most samples in March, but the Skittles and flashlight weren’t tested until July. Although it was tested 4 months later, I’m going to rule out degradation, because 4 months is not that long, and I would expect to see something more, even if it was garbage (@CSFC, do you remember my half-digested fish analogy awhile back when we were talking about DNA?).
              2) Another possibility is that the tech could have screwed up the DNA extraction, but I’m ruling that out also since other samples were run at the same time that were successfully amplified.
              Now I had thought about the rain washing away cells on the flashlight, but in looking at Whonoze’s video, I realized it had stopped raining about the time that GZ made the NEN call and was not raining at least until the end of that video (about 7:30).

              Conclusion:
              Knowing now that it’s possible to detect DNA from an area as small as a trigger from the tip of a forefinger, then it should have been possible to find some DNA on a flashlight that someone holds with the whole palm of their hand, especially if they’re banging on it. Skin cells are not just dry flakes that slough off your arm but that they can get transferred and stick to hard surfaces from the oil on your skin, especially from the hands. I have been known before to caution people about interpreting DNA results. But the nature of the raw DNA just looks suspicious to me. Could this be evidence tampering?

              Ok, I’ve done enough to help feed the conspiracy theories, Time to do something useful like the dishes.

            • The tactical black flashlight I saw a photo of was not big. It was maybe 2 “AA” batteries.

              Mary C. also saw flashlights (plural). Selma says she doesn’t see flashlights at first. But she actually does later. I think she was focusing on the time before GZ left the body when there were no flashlights on. She went into the kitchen and saw things after she went inside. Mary says they went upstairs and saw from there, too.

  129. @jo-

    Regarding the idea that cops wear personal recording devices… we live in a paranoid surveillance state as it is. Who watches the watchmen?

    I’d settle for better selection, training, leadership and civilian/ community oversight and proper pay to ensure the cops that are out there do their jobs well.

    I realize it’s frustrating that so much of this particular case is hidden, and will likely remain so but the truth is coming to light anyway, and it’s courtesy of hard working officers like Chris Serino, I feel as well as of course the millions of ordinary people who pushed for a better investigation into what is obviously a rather run-of-the-mill murder case against a dim-witted but fast talking suspect. I’ve seen schoolboy pranksters with better false narratives than this idiot.

    Serino is working the night shift as a patrolman these days. His boss was fired with generous severance. No credible outside investigation ever took place into SPD or Norm Wolfinger’s actions in the case. In my opinion what we need is more tolerance, better (trained and paid) cops, less handguns on the street and not one more form of creepy surveillance on free people.

    just my 2 cents. carry on.

    • hello, i agree with most of what you say, less hand guns, better training and pay, but i think it would actually be helpful to the police and investigating officers if they could record themselves and others as the investigation occurs. Of course if they are just cruising in their car, or chatting in the station then no need to record anything, but once you enter the crime scene where everything is happening quickly, switch on your voice recording to get a an accurate record of events. It must be hard writing up reports and remembering details hours after the fact….and in the middle of a crime scene no one is going to have personal conversations that require privacy, it should all be on the record.

      • Yes, if these devices are only required to be deployed at crime scenes, I don’t
        see anyone’s rights being violated. In fact I see the public’s interests being
        protected. A crime scene is a specifically named place where these investigative
        tools are to be deployed. Button cams and shoulder mics. At least we’d have the location and orientation of GZ’s truck. We’d have first hand evidence of what was said by whom, and who went where and did what at what time. That certainly could not hurt.

      • @jo I see your point, and I’ve had to sit in court while traffic cops blantantly lied to the judge in front of me, so I feel where you are coming from.

        They try the “constant surveillance” as an artistic aesthetic in the recent cop-buddy film END OF WATCH. Supposedly one of the cops is making a “video project” while he’s on the job and uses small clip-on “lipstick” cameras on himself and his partner. Edited and polished and shot intentionally to tell the story, it’s still a big mess. Imagine how much work would be involved in administering such a system in the real world.

        Are you sure “it should all be on record” is the best thing? Again, I’d rather INCLUDE the human elements of temperance, mercy and discretion at every stage of the game, even if it means an inexact world to live in. Then again, I still play music on a turntable so I’m a throwback, I suppose.

        • ahh the turntable…music hasn’t been the same since… I’m not really one for technology myself but in this day and age where everyone knows how to beat the system and cover their tracks i’m all for everything being recorded during a crime scene even if it is just for the cops that arrive on the scene first. I’m sure homicide detectives etc know the drill and what to look out for but officers arriving on the scene where they don’t know what they are walking into and it’s all happening too fast, Maybe it could be useful just for the responding officers until the crime scene is set up, things have calmed down and the appropriate experts are on the scene. We’ve all seen how many different versions of events there are with the witnesses….some forget details, others change details, so i imagine it’s hard for the cops to remember details and keep control, arrest people, administer cpr, take names etc etc..

  130. Split-screen security video with time stamp, GZ NEN call, and excerpts of 911 calls.

    [video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidwideTS.mp4" /]

    The 911 call excerpts are correctly synced to the clock. I think they clarify how soon JonW13 arrived, how long it took Ofc.Smith to get there, and establish that GZ was walking around with a flashlight in hand after the shooting, which he must have dropped before Smith took him into custody.

    The security videos are synced to the clock based on Tchoupi’s deduced start time. I don’t know whether the addition of the audio will help affirm this relationship, help correct it one way or the other, or reveal that it doesn’t make much difference. As I noted earlier, I don’t think a later start time makes much sense, since I can’t imagine GZ placing his phone call while he’s still driving the truck through it’s u-turn.

    • @whonoze, I have not analyzed these light events, but just my thoughts on what I noticed in this video you posted. It’s nice that the poolside camera shows the rain. If you’ve timed the NEN call right, it looks like GZ says “He’s coming to check me out” right about when the rain has let up, suggesting that TM was moving away from shelter at the mailboxes. My other observation is that at 7:10:43, I hear the distinct sound of a gear shifting into park (sounds different than the windshield wipers) right when he says “he’s a black male”. So either GZ was moving during the first part of the NEN call until that point or he had his foot on the brake for awhile after stopping before shifting to park. I don’t know how that corresponds with the light events. I defer to ya’ll for that.

    • This file is huge Whonoze!!! I’m downloading it anyway and will have a look later today. Thanks again.

  131. Just watched the latest split-screen for the first time – thanks so much Whonoze for an excellent effort. I’d advise others to keep in mind that this is a great first attempt at what I’d say is still an experiment. It’s easy to let this play in your mind as “this is happening” and assume the sync is correct, as many, many things make it seem so. But let’s be critical for now – and assume that the audio is still liable to slip back or forwards to be a better sync if need be. And also that it will likely never be “perfect” since there is no real way to make it sync up. If only we could see and hear a door slam or something, like the “clapper board” in a movie….

    My first impression is that this is a powerful video to watch if you have been prepared to know what to look for and are predisposed to think poorly of GZ. I have no idea what a hardcore skeptic or a GZ believer would make of it, not being one myself.

    The silence of the “missing minutes” plays like a horror film, and the arrival of the first responder, ofc Tim Smith is SO close to the event that I could feel the tragic element even more than I’d previously imagined it. If GZ had actually spotted TM by Taafe’s house and called then somehow, I could imagine ofc. Smith arriving in time to break up the altercation almost. Such a tragedy. Every time I hear w18, I have to admit that hers is the most human reaction to the events. Everyone should be as distraught as she was. It was a gruesome and pointless event that didn’t have to happen.

    But getting back to the minutia, I look forward to hearing others’ reactions. I’ll have to watch it again a few times before weighing in fully but on first look I’d have to say the audio might be a little bit ahead as a general impression, but not by much at all. I felt like we were dealing with a ten-second window of slippage, tops. The arrival of the second and third cops seemed kinda advanced regarding picture, however so I’m torn. I didn’t see/hear anything I felt was 100% impossible, however on first look. But, like I said, that “suspension of disbelief” that accompanies andy sound-laden motion pictures kicks in, so be skeptical if you can!

  132. Regarding flashlights, and possibly for those who may be “just tuning in” – short recap: the black tactical flashlight (presumed non-working) is visible very close to the body in the accidentally released zeroxed photos of the body of Trayvon Martin. It’s clearly not a D-cell sized “fake billy club” that cops like to brandish menacingly at traffic stops. There seems to be a very broad consensus of opinion that it is George’s and did not function for him, and is the source of the noise heard as he taps on it around the time he would have reached the T sidewalk intersection as heard on the NEN call recording.

    IMO the lack of DNA on it won’t stop anyone on the jury from deciding it was his, but it will show that no one used it as a weapon to any effect. That’s the significance I see in it.

    The lighted keychain flashlight to me is the item that is shrouded in more mystery.

    IMO no one ever saw the black flashlight operate and that it was jettisoned around the time the altercation put the two on the ground, since the cell phone occupies the other side of a more or less equilateral triangle formed by the black tactical flashlight and the shell casing. I could imagine those two items getting dropped as the two reached out to break their initial fall, possibly or after being used to strike out at one another in an initial round of fisticuffs, but I’m ready to rule out the latter since no blood or DNA seems to have been discovered on either.

    The multiple flashlights shining in the dark post-shooting is the interesting issue to me at this point. Lots of unanswered questions there. (I wish GZ would hurry up and give a full and detailed confession and save us all the time of ferreting out his myriad lies.) W13 had a flashlight and witnesses saw that, and another one. Was it the keychain flashlight or was it Ofc. Smith, and if so who saw what when? It seems like this group is trying to work that one out at present.

    • 7:18:28
      W3 is still telling the operator that Smith is on the wrong side of the building
      7:18:39
      JohnW6 says specifically “there are two guys with flashlights,” outside.
      7:19:06
      W3 says “Hurry up, hurry up!’ indicating she still doesn’t see an officer at the site of the shooting.
      7:19:30
      W18 sees another person approach with a flashlight.
      7:19:35
      W18 describes Zimmerman surrendering to Ofc.Smith.

      So John sees two flashlights about a full minute before Smith arrives at the site of the shooting.

      • @whonoze great analysis, as per usual.

        I do wonder if w13’s flashlight plus his iPhone screen/flash could be seen as “two flashlights” or not.

        If not, and if W6/John and W13/Jon could testify credibly in court about this, then we have some “traction” regarding proving to a jury GZ possibly “planting” the keychain flashlight up by the T post-shooting but to be honest I don’t think that’s likely to happen. It’s incredibly intriguing however to contemplate from a “What happened” thing.

      • Actually there is nothing to say the BIG flashlight wasn’t working. It was off when witnesses first saw it on the ground. GZ was earlier heard banging it. he CLAIMS it didn’t come on. Serino said he had no trouble getting it going. Maybe GZ did flash it around before getting the idea about pretending it was dead, and planting the other one.
        1) it was dead when we hear him banging it, he put in into pocket
        a) it fell out in the fight or
        b) he removed it after the fight and tried using it and it worked
        OR
        2) it worked when he finished banging it and he had it OUT and IN USE
        a) while looking for Trayvon, then dropped it
        b) picked it up and used it afterwards

        • @aussie: Hi! Enquiring minds here wanted to know what you meant the other day (when you were logged in here as “aussiekay”, that’s you too right?) when you said “The second-latest evidence dump claimed the large light at the scene was NOT GZ;s but doesn’t say whose it is or how they claim to know this.” and, if possible, you could direct us to the correct file and page number. Thanks!

        • This is good thinking. I select your #2. It’s a small black flashlight. The red light on back of my bike goes on and off at random as I go over bumps. Has to do with batteries being a little loose and losing connection. I also suspect that little batteries develop a little corrosive film when not in use for a while. This interferes with connection. As GZ tapped it against what? it came into better use. Probably dropped it during the various struggling they did. Then he took it when he walked away from the body.

          GZ with his flashlight could have been the first. He was pacing before Jonw13 came and probably afterwards when Jon was taking pictures of Trayvon before police arrived. My guess is that GZ was the first flashlight. Jon was the second. Smith the third. I think both GZ and w13 were shining their lights when they met. GZ must have ‘planted’ this light by the body just before Smith arrived.

          If I’m wrong, then GZ never picked it up after the shooting.

    • If I read MOM’s actions right, there isn’t a defense case left. GZ will have to plead to the maximum or go to trial. The nation expects him to plead, but, he has nothing to lose by going to trial, because he can’t lose more than he’s lost already. At least at a trial he can hope for a rabid racist juror, otherwise he has no other hope left.

      There’s enough evidence developed already for the SP to craft a strong theory of guilt, that GZ can’t challenge with any hope of success. Every word he utters on the stand, will open doors to floods of impeachment material, he himself created. All he can do is sit quietly and hope that some klansman gets on the jury and doesn’t know ( or learn) about his “proud Hispanic heritage”. You know, the one he had been working very hard to conceal prior to being called a racist.

  133. HOLY CR@P, I just looked at the raw DNA evidence for the gun slide holster more closely, and I’m about 90% sure that TM had a hold of the holster and quite possibly the slide. My reasons are given below and why the lab wrote “no determination”. This would be consistent with MO’s version of the story.

    In page 11 of the 262 page FDLE bio evidence report, it says that a mixed DNA profile was found with at least 3 contributors. A complete profile was matched to GZ, and they could not get a profile for the other 2 contributors. Also, “No determination can be made regarding the possible contribution of Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) in the mixed DNA profile obtained from Exhibit DMS-21D.” Now reading this you would think “NO TM DNA” but note that they do NOT exclude him. Furthermore, in looking at the raw data (pages 59-61), I can see a number of alleles (>5) that match TM (and not GZ) and by looking at the chart on pages 15-17. Note that when the peaks are low, they use an asterisk * to mark it, but due to their strict criteria, they cannot call it a positive match for the allele. However, given that there’s not a lot of background noise, if you accept those as matches, then there’s more than just a coincidence of finding that many of TM’s alleles in the DNA test.

    There are fewer allelic matches for TM on the slide, but again, it’s suggestive he may have had a hold of the gun itself.

    @CSFC, can you just look at the charts on pages 15-17 to see what I mean and tell me I’m not crazy? I do not have time right now to write up my whole analysis now.

    • OK, I realize I have to give you guys time to digest, and accept or refute my conclusion that TM actually did touch the holster (and maybe the gun). But to clarify, when I say touch, I don’t mean barely touch with the tip of a finger. I mean there was an actual struggle for the gun, enough for traces of TM’s DNA to be found (and yes, I believe there are traces if one were to look at the raw data). The big question is why wouldn’t GZ report that TM had a hold of the gun to the police? I mean, wouldn’t it bolster his self-defense claim to say that TM tried to take his gun away? (I say this, of course, believing it would only because TM was trying to DEFEND HIMSELF). By his lying about it, we have to assume that GZ did something damning. I can only think that it would be that the holster was not clipped/secured in his waistband, and that it was not “accidentally” exposed. Knowing self-defense and SYG laws, he had to concoct a story around how he was helplessly pinned to the ground and could not retreat, but yet was somehow able to get to his gun and shoot. I guess he couldn’t figure out the struggle for the gun into that narrative. He couldn’t let on that he consciously pulled out the gun before being hurt (barely) and had freedom of movement at the time he pulled the trigger.

      • Damn, WSI…come on, lol. This and the flashlight thing in one day…my brain is swirling.

        • QETNO, Forget the flashlight for now. I am SO SERIOUS about the DNA on the holster thing. This is HUGER than anything so far. I’m no good at listening 911 tapes or lining up light events on fuzzy camers, but gosh darn it, I’ll swear on my otherwise useless bio degree that this is real. But you don’t need a PhD to see what I’m saying.
          Just look at the summary charts on pages 15-17.

          Click to access GZ-FLDE-bio-evidence-2-0919.pdf

          On Page 15 bottom right, you’ll see the profile on the holster (under Sample ID 12AVG63). The first column has all of the alleles they found. The column next to it (says “DM-21D holster, MAJOR”) are the alleles that match to Zimmerman, and the profile is completely GZ. (See page 16 for GZ profile). Now the last column has the remaining alleles that DIDN’T match to GZ. If you line them up with Martin’s profile, you’ll see that 6 of the alleles match. My cursory check of the raw data shows that at least three more alleles marked only with an asterisk on that page (because their signal was low) match to TM. That’s at least 9 out of 26 possible alleles matching TM. I hate statistics so I won’t figure out the odds there, but instead of one in gazillion, it’s still a one in an umpteenth billion odds that it could be anybody other than TM in that minor DNA profile on the holster. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

          • Very interesting. I’ve always understood that not conclusive did not mean that TM was ruled out, but thank you for pointing out what you noticed from the raw data.

            Why would GZ not want to emphasize this point? It doesn’t make any sense. I think TM saying, “You’re gonna die tonight” is completely bogus, but why add that over saying he grabbed my gun, or we fought over my gun?!

            GZ, I wish you’d just tell us what really happened that night.

            • @QETNO, Pourquoi? (Why?) Oh, I ask myself that question daily. O’Mara is starting to conduct depositions of FDLE and crime lab analysts.
              http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmermans-lawyers-begin-depositions-trayvon-martin-case-details
              In the interest of truth, I hope my suspicions/revelations about TM’s DNA being on the holster and gun will be parsed out eventually. They chose to say “no determination” instead of saying “TM could not be ruled out as a contributor” to the DNA found on the gun/holster. Both of these mean the same thing, but the latter statement is suggestive, and I think they didn’t want to “suggest” that TM’s DNA could be on the gun or holster, thinking that would bolster GZ’s case. From where I sit though, I think this could help to explain some holes in GZ’s story.

              I have always felt uneasy about how the whole world jumped on the “No TM DNA on the gun” story. What I’m telling you about the evidence has to be presented VERY CAREFULLY to the public, or it’ll become another OJ case-like disaster, People like clear-cut yes and no answers, especially when it comes to DNA evidence. Many of the DNA signals in my opinion were positive, but they fell below an arbitrary cut-off value, and therefore could not be “called” positive, but the peaks (alleles) were identified. I really think the data should be re-analyzed with a lower threshold.

              And yes it would help if GZ would just own up to what really happened! But what are the chances of that? One in a gazillion.

      • GZ tampered with Trayvons body, could he have transferred Trayvons DNA to the holster when putting his gun back?

        • @Jo, I thought about the possibility of secondary transfer of DNA. No blood was found on the holster so it would have to be transfer of cells. But, skin flakes coming from the very top of a person’s skin at say the arm does not contain a nucleus (and therefore no DNA), so it’s hard to transfer cells that way. If it were that easy to transfer cells, then I would think they’d get all sorts of contamination. We have a lot of DNA and cells with DNA on the palm of our hands from touching fluids from our own face like saliva, nose mucous, tears, etc. GZ didn’t claim to have had his hands on TM’s face (unless HE was the one smothering TM trying to get him to stop screaming). It’s possible TM was extra sweaty. But there’s still a nagging question. From the re-enactment, GZ seemed to indicate that the holster was always in his waistband. But whether TM grabbed the holster or GZ transferred TM’s DNA to it, it had to have been out of his waistband. Why? Ugh, I said this would answer some questions but I guess it opened a can of worms. This case is driving me nuts!

          • hmmmmm it’s a tricky one. Maybe it was contaminated at the scene when the gun and holster was taken from gz, could the same person have checked trayvon for vital signs before bagging the gun. GZ has always said he thought Tray was going for the gun because he started to slide his hand down gz’s chest, but no mention that he even got close to it. It’s a long shot but perhaps when gz left his vehicle he didn’t have his holster on so had to grab it from under the seat or the glove box or something. Maybe he just stuck it in his jacket when he left the car (sitting in a car with a gun down your pants doesn’t sound too comfortable). Might have pulled the gun and holster from his jacket during the struggle, got some of trayvons dna on it before he got the gun out and shot. Maybe not. I don’t know anymore. He said he held trayvons arms out and had the gun in his had at that time, maybe thats how it got on the slide, and at some point his arms were moved underneath him, maybe he was holding the holster. Might have put it in his pants before the cops got there because if he had to grab his gun before leaving his car that shows intent, best just to say he was already packing. It’s too hard, they don’t make hard enough liquor for me to get through this case.

            • @Jo, you bring up some really good points. Officer Smith took the gun, I would presume he did it before checking TM, to secure the weapon. It makes me ill thinking how much contact he had with TM’s body after the shooting. I wonder if cell-phone Jon saw him holstering the gun? And yeah, how many guys do keep their gun in their pants while driving? Where’s unitron and gunnora?

            • In my mind, if TM did touch/grab the gun, all this proves is that the gun was not concealed and/or out earlier than GZ would like everyone to believe.

              I believe GZ has taken events and changed up the order. Maybe GZ did tell Trayvon, “Stop. Don’t move,” but not after the shot – maybe this is said earlier in his attempt to detain TM. The gun comes out, and TM fights to disarm his assailant while screaming for help. GZ gets the gun then TM puts his hands up, “You got it.” GZ shoots anyway. *shrug* Completely speculative, and I’m not sure this could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but I think this is a very likely scenario. More likely than anything GZ’s put forth.

              I don’t like guns, and I never intend to own one, but I have wanted to take self-defense classes that teach you how to disarm an attacker.

        • @Jo – Thank you. That’s actually what I’ve suspected all along. Zimmerman tainted the evidence from the get go.

          @WSI – See Jo’s response. Will catch up later.

    • WSI,

      I’m no biologist but from what I understand, and without running statistics, it looks logical to me that they can’t determine the minor contributor(s) to the holster. Indeed, TM has specific alleles that are missing in some of the genes of the set used to ID contributors. I really mean missing not undetermined.
      FGA misses both 23 nor 26,
      D16S539 misses either 8 or 9 or both,
      TH01 misses 7, and
      TPOX misses 9

      So, what are the odds that TM contributed and yet some alleles are just not showing up?

      Moreover, there are alleles that are from neither GZ nor TM indicating that there are contributions from neither.
      D3S1358 gives 15 & 18 while TM has a pair of 16s,
      FGA (again) gives 24 while TM has both 23 & 26,
      D5S818 gives 13 while TM has a pair of 12s, and
      D16S539 (again) gives 11 & 13 while TM has 8 & 9.

      So, what are the odds that the someone else but TM contributed? I can answer to that one: It is 100% chances.

      Furthermore, of the 13 genes shown in this table, only 4 may completely match.
      D3S1358 has 16 as in TM’s pair of 16s,
      vWA has 16 as in TM’s pair of 16s,
      D8S1179 has 14 but also 15 (attributed to GZ only in the table) as in TM’s pair 14 & 15, and
      CSF1PO has 12 as in TM’s pair of 12s.

      I think the undetermination of the minor contributors is correct. You don’t have to run statistics.

      • @tchoupi, thank you for looking at the data.
        You said: “TM has specific alleles that are missing in some of the genes of the set used to ID contributors. I really mean missing not undetermined….what are the odds that TM contributed and yet some alleles are just not showing up”
        Answer: The “missing alleles” are due to the low signal of the DNA. In looking at the raw data, the minor alleles are short peaks of under 200 units, and often under 100 units. Strong signals generate up to several thousand units. I would expect for some alleles to not be picked up.
        You said: “Moreover, there are alleles that are from neither GZ nor TM indicating that there are contributions from neither”
        Answer: True, there does seem to be a third contributor. A holster has rough surfaces unlike a gun or flashlight. It would have a higher chance of rubbing off cells/DNA from people and retaining it.
        You said: “Furthermore, of the 13 genes shown in this table, only 4 may completely match. D3S1358 has 16 as in TM’s pair of 16s, vWA has 16 as in TM’s pair of 16s, D8S1179 has 14 but also 15 (attributed to GZ only in the table) as in TM’s pair 14 & 15, and CSF1PO has 12 as in TM’s pair of 12s.”
        Answer: in counting matches, I count alleles not genes. There are 26 possible alleles from each individual for the 13 loci, some of which of course are duplicated if the person is homozygous at that locus. It’s true that if you only counted those matched alleles on the table as shown, it would be technically be undetermined, but there are still more matches than those gotten by chance, such as between GZ and TM, who share 4 out of the 26 alleles (granted, they’re of different races).

        But in addition to those matched alleles noted, if you were to inspect raw data starting on page 61 of the 262 page document, you’ll find additional matches for the alleles only indicated by an asterisk * in the table, but the allele numbers are indicated in the graphs. These were alleles that generated a peak but were below the threshold. To me, they’re clear peaks, with low signals given the expected low amount of DNA, and they’re clearly above background noise. Note that you can’t see the gene names so you’ll have to deduce that by the cluster of allele numbers noted below the peaks. They show the allele numbers with the intensity of the signal, and the questionable alleles are marked with an asterisk *.

        At D21S11, alleles 28 and 29 were clearly identified, matching GZ. The third * peak is allele 30, which matches TM, who has alleles 28 and 30 at that locus.
        At D18S51, allele 14 was clearly identified, matching GZ who has a pair of 14’s there. The second * peak is allele 16, matching TM who has a pair of 16s there.
        At D13S317, alleles 12 and 14 were clearly identified, matching GZ. The third * peak is allele 13, matching TM, who has alleles 12 and 13 at that locus.

        My count of matching alleles earlier was off (I said at least 9/26) because I forgot to count the homozygous loci as two alleles. So my total allelic matches for TM now is at least 16/26 (Somehow graph for the the last three loci, TH01, TPOX and CSF1PO were not included in the dataset, so I can’t look at those, don’t know why). I’d say that’s a pretty good match.

        • Make that 18/26 alleles, darn, I can’t count. I need to take counting lessons from my 6 year old.

        • WSI wrote: “The ‘missing alleles’ are due to the low signal of the DNA.”
          I believe FLDE just cannot honestly push aside the possibility that the allele is not seen because it is not there. In other genes, they have detected alleles but could not read them. So, the logged them using a star sign. In the list of genes with missing alleles FLDE put nothing because they saw nothing.
          As example, of people having the same alleles, TM & GZ have allele #15 in D8S1179. Because, GZ is clearly major contributor, they attributed all of the it to him, but we have to understand that some may come from TM or another person.
          Equally, in the genes were there matching is partial, you can cannot tell whether the allele comes from TM or the other minor contributors.
          I’m making a caricature here, but imagine that the whole world had touched the holster but TM. The wouldn’t be able to exclude TM as a contributor.

          Concerning the way to count, I understand what you’re doing. Thank you.
          My point is that it is actually not helping much because 1) we probabilities are set per gene, and 2) what you want is the lowest probability possible.
          Let say that for a gene you have alleles AGAT (90% occurrence) & ACAT (10% occurrence). So, the world population comes with 81% AGAT AGAT, 1% ACAT ACAT & 18% AGAT ACAT. Assuming you know there is 1 minor contributor, If you find AGAT only you match with 81%+18%=99% of the population. If you find ACAT only you match with 1%+18%=19% of the population. If you find AGAT/ACAT you match with 18%. You’d rather have both alleles of the gene to exclude as many people as possible. Once you have the probability number for all the genes you have, then the overall probability is the product of all probability numbers. It will go down quickly if if the probability number of each gene is low. Assume 10% for a set of 13 genes, you’ll end up with a number that 1E-13=100th of a billions. But if your probability number of each gene is high (assume 90%) your overall probability to match is high (90%^13=25%).
          I LOVE PROBABILITY

          Concerning reading the raw data, this is probability where my science stops. I’ll give it a try, though. Challenges is what makes me happy.

          • @tchoupi, thanks. I told you I hate stats and don’t do math beyond standard deviations. But you are right. Calculations of probabilities in DNA matches require genotypic frequencies (taking into account both alleles at each locus and the race/population). But my approach here is first to just pull out the data that’s obscured.

            If you get a chance to look at the raw data, I think you’d see what I mean about missing alleles due to low/degraded signals. For anyone else unfamiliar with how the DNA signal gets amplified and reported, these “genes” are really not genes (defined as a region of DNA that encodes a protein that gets made in the cell) but rather DNA regions or loci (singular, locus) that have repeated DNA sequences, or short tandem repeats (STRs). The profile is based on examining 13 different loci. At any loci, there are variable numbers of possible repeats. As an example, locus A could have between 5 and 15 possible repeats of the sequence, while locus B could have between 9 and 25 repeats of the sequence GATC in a given population. The different alleles then are detected based on how LONG these STRs are, not necessarily their exact sequence. These 13 different loci (located usually in the center of a chromosome with low mutation rates) were chosen for profiling because everybody has them. If you drew a blood sample, you’d be able to identify alleles at all 13 sites for everyone. Even if you just crawled out of a remote cave somewhere, they’d be able to amplify alleles at all 13 sites for you, but some of them may be different sizes than seen before, so you’d just get assigned new allele numbers. With that said, the reason why in a forensic sample, you do not pick up any allele sometimes is that you don’t have as much DNA to start with because it’s not fluid (blood/semen, etc) but came from a dry surface as with the holster. The amount of pressure and nature of the contact also determines how much DNA gets deposited on the surface.

            Again, as I mentioned, these alleles are identified primarily on the basis of size. In the raw data graphs, the numbers on the x-axis represent sizes of the amplified fragments. So where the peaks sit on the graph represent how long the DNA fragments are (shorter to the left, longer to the right). The bars above the graphs (which you can’t read) mark each of the 13 different STR loci (plus the X Y chromosome). Now, the units in the y-axis of the graphs represent the intensity of the fluorescently labeled DNA after amplification. It corresponds to the abundance of the DNA in the original sample. Shorter peaks = low amount of DNA, higher peaks = higher amounts of DNA.

            In reading the graphs, pay close attention to height of the peaks and the scale on the lefthand side. With blood stains, you’ll see the scale goes up above 1000, while with the hard surface samples (gun/holster), the scale is much lower. The identified and suspected alleles are labeled.

            With a known major contributor, GZ, you’ll notice that the peaks for his alleles are large, while the minor peaks are much smaller. There is a flaw in my previous counting of alleles (when I said 18/26 matched) in that I can’t 100% tell if TM is detected at an allele that is common with GZ who contributed much more DNA to the sample. For example, on the holster, at the DSS1179 locus, they picked up two large peaks (890 and 910 units) corresponding to allele 12 and 15, and match GZ. There’s a small peak (111 units) for allele 14, which matches TM’s profile. TM should also have allele 15 but you can’t for sure that it’s there because it’s obscured by GZ’s DNA. Remember the PCR distinguishes only by size so it can’t tell which alleles are attributed to which person, but the height of the peak can give some indication. The analyst first puts all of the alleles matching GZ in his column as being the major contributor, and then the rest of the alleles get dumped into another column. As a minor contributor, it’s expected that you can identify all alleles. All I’m saying though, is I believe they’ve identified enough alleles to reasonably say that TM’s DNA was on the holster (however it got there).

            BTW, some of the alleles that don’t match TM and GZ on the holster also show up on the gun grip, from which TM was excluded as a contributor. So it’s someone else who’s handled the gun and holster regularly I would imagine (Shellie, MO?) and would not be overly concerned that it’s there.

            • This is rather fascinating. I’m amazed about the ability to isolate and amplify DNA.
              I understand my mistake when assuming forensic was actually reading the DNA sequences. What you explain seem simpler, faster and efficient. BTW, AGAT ACAT was actually a joke I was making (I got a cat) but, as my wife tells me each time, I’m the only person to understand my jokes.

              I’ll have a look to the raw data. Before, i need to know at what level of signal may be covered with noise? I mean. in those charts, from your expertise, below what level of signal do you loose confidence in the measure?

            • @Tchoupi, in actuality, there is a formula that they use for each run to determine the “threshold” of a peak before they will accept it as a definite positive match for an allele and put it on the summary chart. Here’s a paper that explains the calculation for the limit of detection (LOD) and limit of quantitation (LOQ).

              Click to access RunSpecificRFUthreshold.pdf

              The LOD is the background noise plus 3 standard deviations, and the LOQ is the background noise plus 10 standard deviations. I think they use the LOQ to be conservative for the positive match. Although this number varies for different runs and for different fluorescent dyes (they use a multiplex approach where in the same PCR reaction, they mix DNA primers for each locus with a different dye), let’s say the LOQ is around 100 relative fluorescent units (RLUs). From the graphs, you’ll see that the background noise usually below 20, so I’m comfortable with 50 as the LOD. It seems that this area between 50 and 100 RLUs is the gray area in which you clearly see a clean peak but statistically it does not meet the LOQ, so it gets a star * (I call this biological purgatory/limbo).

              Although it may seem clear-cut and that the software would just spit out an answer for you, in actuality there’s a lot of decisions the lab analyst has to make, literally a lot of eye-balling. Of course, they apply the parameters to give the thresholds and all, but they also have to decide which peaks to take and which to ignore. We are limited here in interpreting the data because we can only tell which peaks they chose to identify an allele for. Here and there you will see minor peaks that they didn’t identify. One reason could be technical, there are little bumps called stutters which are DNA fragments which are just one repeat short of the real allele (so it comes up as exactly 4 base bairs shorter), progressively shorter peaks due to degraded DNA, or oddly shaped peaks due to bubbles in the system.

              Click to access FBS%20Insert.pdf

              Therefore, we do have to give the analysts due credit for being able to parse out this noise.
              That is why I cannot ignore those alleles marked with the stars * lightly. The lab identified them and wanted those alleles to be noted.

              Thanks so much for making this effort. I feel like I need some validation.

            • AGAT ACAT = I got a cat. HA! I did LOL once I finally got that. I was wondering why you were telling me you have a cat. I’m either prematurely aging or graduate school sucked the brain cells out of me….

            • @WSI. Is the slide and the hammer the same thing? Saw this article and the author says something about MO saying that GZ said Trayvon had the gun between the slide and the hammer. It’s the only time that i know of that there is any mention of trayvon holding the gun and have no idea how in a struggle gz would know the exact spot trayvon had grip of the gun, but if it is in the exact same spot as where his dna was found it could be quite an interesting statement. The article is here and part way down he mentions somthing in MO’s book. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-bloody-mess/2012/09/28/e204d598-09a4-11e2-858a-5311df86ab04_blog.html

            • @Jo, yeah MO did say TM held the gun between the rear site and hammer. I’m not a gun afficionado, but here goes. The “hammer” is internal but you can imagine where it is if you think of the old TV movie revolvers in western movies. The slide is the thing on top of the gun that you “slide” back to load the chamber. In the evidence pictures you can see it’s a separate piece from the rest of the gun. The rear site is that thing on top of the slide at the back. From videos of people using the gun, I see them grip the sides of the slide to pull it back, the fingers could be anywhere along the slide, but usually towards the back half of the slide. The “between the rear site and hammer” has to be at the back of the gun on the slide but above the gun grip/handle. However, if someone were to grip the gun while in it’s holster, I think only the very back of the slide might be exposed (anyone know?), so the hand would be mostly on the holster if it’s not on the grip. This would explain how TM’s DNA would be found only/mostly on the holster.

              Please note that very few alleles were detected for either GZ or TM on the slide, so I can’t hang my hat on that at all. In fact some of those alleles are shared by both guys. So now I’m going to just agree with the report that a determinination can’t be made about the slide, but note that TM CANNOT be ruled out. TM CAN be ruled out of the gun grip since GZ’s DNA was definitely there and the alleles from the minor contributor do not match TM. Going back to the holster, I’m convinced TM’s DNA is there. I am awaiting Tchoupi’s analysis to back me up on that.

            • Yes, but GZ’s credibility is so low and he’s known to be so devious, we can’t rule out that he wiped the gun on Trayvon as a way to bolster his defense. If so, he’d have one hell of a task in front of him, because he must make absolutely certain that the gun doesn’t pick up TM’s blood. That’s my bit of speculation, without saying what it might be worth.

            • thanks. so it’s probable that the gun had to be out for trayvon to grab it where mo says he grabbed it perhaps. Anyway it’s not proof of much since in his own words (and in one of the versions of the story) GZ was still holding onto his gun when he spread Trayvons arms and tried to subdue the dead child.

            • @wsi says” all I’m saying is they’ve identified enough alleles to reasonably say that TM’s DNA is on the holster however it got there”

              So WHY didn’t they say TM’s DNA is identified on GZ’s holster if they matched enough alleles?

            • @2dogsonly, sorry for my sloppy writing. I should have said “All I’m saying is there are enough alleles DETECTED that matched TM’s DNA on the holster for ME TO INTUITIVELY REASON that it is TM’s DNA, however it got there”

              Through all of the discussions I’ve had with Tchoupi, you can see how murky it gets when you’re trying to interpret DNA signals that are so low. I don’t know your gender or if you’ve ever had to pee on a pregnancy test stick and had to figure out if the faint line is really there or not (No need to actually answer those questions, 2dogs). It’s kinda like that. You’re either pregnant or you’re not, but early in pregnancy, it’s kinda hard to tell. We’re talking about faint lines on a pee stick.

              Technically, the FDLE were right to say that no determination could be made whether TM’s DNA was found on the holster (not ruling whether it was definitely not there or definitely there). If I were the Lab Director, I wouldn’t have written any other conclusion in the report either given the exact same data, or my head would be on the chopping block. Based on the standard criteria, they can only “call” an allele, meaning they can only say that an allele was positively identified if the signal is above a threshold. And they can only make a determination that it was TM’s DNA for sure if a certain number of alleles could be matched. However, a number of those allele’s, while detected and could be seen by visual inspection of the data, could not be “called” because they didn’t meet the threshold.

              But I’m not the lab director, so I’m gonna keep on staring at the pee stick….

    • As frightened of GZ as Trayvon was, I sincerely doubt he’d have even attempted to put his hands anywhere on GZ. Less reach for a holstered gun he could not have known was there. He was frightened of GZ even before he ever saw any gun, so he would not do anything to further enrage GZ, who already had his face screwed up with hate or loathing.

      I’d rather think that after he shot Trayvon, he had time to do things to bolster his self defense claims, one important one would be to get TM’s trace on his gun and holster.
      All he would need to do is manage a quick wipe, which he probably did, only too quick and because he was trying to conceal what he was doing, he didn’t get the strong signal he sought.

      Trayvon wasn’t trying to search GZ, instead GZ had to hold TM to keep him from leaving. So, it makes no sense that TM would then reach behind GZ, into his waistband for a weapon that was concealed. TM was in a fog of terror and pain! Under those conditions there could never be any “fight”, the only defensive markings would occur if GZ threw any blows, otherwise TM is totally occupied trying to get away, or frozen in terror at the sight of the gun. Who, in their right mind, would reach for a gun pointed at them by a big scary stranger?

      TM doesn’t fight or intimidate children half his size, he’s not going to start with people bigger, heavier and stronger, less older than himself.

      • hi Lonnie. I agree that GZ did something after the shot to Trayvon. As CSFC has always said, there is something strange about him jumping on Tray’s body. He knew people had seen him so he came up with some story of not knowing he shot him so he spread his lifeless arms and tried to hold his lifeless body still so he couldn’t get up. Bullshit. He frisked him, thought holy fuck what do i do now, walked around knowing that the child was dead and no threat to him anymore (even though he told hannity he still didn’t think the kid was hurt …biggest load of crap out of all of it if you ask me), put his hands to his head,called his wife and buddy to brag etc etc. But i do think Trayvon would have put his hands on GZ at some point. I don’t know why but from all we have learnt from GZ everything in me tells me he tried to detain Trayvon. He held on to him, police are on the way thug, stay where you are, you aint going no where homie. I really think the struggle was Trayvon trying to pull away, i don’t think he threw punches, i think it was a wrestle, they fell to the ground, Tray was trying to get up, GZ was hanging on yelling for someone to help him contain the criminial he had caught with his bare hands….oh gee my buddy mark is gonna be sooooo proud of me. Trayvon would have struggled and pushed away and tried to get this freak off of him. But he didn’t attack anyone that’s for sure.

        Wish there was CCTV footage. In Australia a woman got abducted from the street last week, cctv footage showed some guy approaching her and chatting, within days he was found and arrested for terrible crimes and the footage wasn’t even very clear. I really don’t like the technology overload of today but as long as the footage is ignored and disposed of 48 hours later unless a crime is committed then i’m all for cctv cameras to be everywhere to help solve crimes that would otherwise go unsolved.

  134. I made a mistake on the audio track of the last sec-cam vid, so I’ve pulled it from the dropbox, and redoing it to fix the error. I had accidentally left out parts of W3’s call where she describes seeing Smith in front of her house.

  135. Fixed split-screen video:

    [video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidwTS2.mp4" /]

    It’s a bit smaller than the last one too. I played with some different start timings, but decided to keep it with Tchoupi’s mark. As willisnewton noted, it seems the best compromise fit between the different timings we might guess based on using just GZ’s or W3’s calls to mark the respective ‘light events.’

    • Great work Whonoze,

      I have comments & remarks though.
      1) I was surprised to hear the GZ’s nen before he parked. But that’s not because of you. It’s my own wrong estimation of when the car parks facing the clubhouse. I found it even more realistic
      2) It is clear that W18 knows the person lying on the ground is a young boy before they flip him over. She must have heard the discussion between GZ and Smith from her room.
      3) A request for improving the video. Could you put W3 on soon after the gunshot. She says something like “hurry up! there’s a gun shot”. I’m not sure how it interferes with W11. However, one thing I believe is worth having is then letting W3 911 call on at least until T. Smith comes in. Here is my time line http://i.imgur.com/KDXHbh.png
      4) I don’t know how much effort it takes to add popping inserts showing logs from SPD LEOs. I believe it would help watchers understanding what is happening. I have a bundle of the 1st three here http://i.imgur.com/2Bw1I.png. Taking T. Smith arrival, at 7:17:11, an insert would pop up showing the line of GZ’s nen call’s log with T. Smith ARV log.
      5) Following the same concept as in (4), it would be nice showing TM’s call log showing when his calls start and stop. As example, at 6:54, an insert would pop up with the line of the log showing TM calling DeeDee.
      6) For absolute beginners, it would be nice to have some kind of introduction. Nothing happens for about 20min. That time can be used to explain what we see. I mean highlighting one by one RVC, the north gate, TTL, the mailboxe. But, also where Wit 3, 11 & 18 and the T are located in the distance. Maybe an insert with the map of the complex would help like that one: http://i.imgur.com/FrB1F.png.
      7) Finally, you could also highlight the parking spots in front of the clubhouse as the place where GZ says he was when he called. This shows very well that he wasn’t there. In comparison we could show where we believe he is. We can highlight vehicles passing on RVC in the initial 20min to explain that the cameras caught cars in front of the clubhouse so GZ’s big truck should show up.

      I think that I have loaded you with a lot of work. Obviously these are just ideas. You have no obligation to do whatever I propose. But, it would be nice if …

      • Actually Whonoze you already did point (3). For some reasons, I forgot it by the end of the video. Is that what we call aging?

      • Well yes, I do want to add explanatory stuff, and put it on YT eventually. It’s just a question of time and energy yada yada yada.

        Query: what’s your reading of the round light that shows up in the East Pool Hall at 7:08:51 and stays in pretty much the same place until 7:09:00. Is this a flashlight shining out from GZ’s passenger side window? (Presumably held by GZ as I don’t believe he had a passenger.) Is it some sort of light on the truck? (If so, what kind of light?) You had said GZ goes very slowly by the mailboxes. This light makes it seem like he actually stops for 9 seconds.

        I guess one reason to think it’s not a flashlight is that it doesn’t seem to move around. People normally scan back and forth, up and down with flashlights, and I don’t see anything iike that.

        On another sec-vid matter, i continue to maintain that the ‘Snowman’ cannot be porch lights from 12XX TTL. Compare the brightness of this area to the little dots coming from the backs of the homes on Long Oak Way, which are about the same distance from the camera as the front of 12XX TTL. Unless John or Jeremy have 2K Lekos mounted as porch lights (and they don’t), they ain’t throwing that much light over that distance.

        I notice that when vehicles pass through the ‘Snowman’ they’re not really silhouetted exactly. Which raises the possibility that the ‘Snowman’ is a reflection, or a combination of reflection, from lights that are not BEHIND that point, but in front and too the the side. Specifically, i am thinking the ‘Snowman’ might be reflected light from the two other bright sources visible in the East Pool image: the bright ball to the left of the ‘Snowman’ which seems to be a light under the eaves of the Clubhouse roof at its SE corner, and the bright ball to the right of the ‘Snowman’ which appears to come from a streetlight at the SW corner of the first turn in TTL.

        That may not be it. But whatever it is, it’s a lot closer than those porch lights.

        • I don’t know if this helps. I think the camera shot at 0:27 in this video is taken from the poolside next to the mailboxes looking down TTL. Maybe someone can capture a still photo from the video for reference. The pool is seen at 0:37.

        • The bright spot at the East Pool Hall at 7:08:51 is from GZ’s headlight seen from the side. Once the truck takes off, you see it moving again and then you get a rear light or an inside light for a second. I noticed that GZ’s truck blows in every direction and lights all the walls in every videos. I used that light as the evidence that GZ stopped by the mailboxes for 10sec and therefore the evidence that he was stalking TM.

          Concerning the snowman light, I can’t see other explanation but front porch lights. It would match in location and possibly in color. There also the fact that the bottom two spots reflect on the pavement. Lights from LOW’s townhouses may be from back porches. It seems to me though as if they are from inside the houses thru windows and doors. This may explain the difference.

          The bright spot to the left pf the snowman is definitely from a light at the south east corner of the clubhouse building. Check the West Pool video, you’ll see it more clearly.

            • I think there are TWO streetlights making blobs on the east pool cam, but the one you are mentioning, the close one, is to the screen right of the snowman.

              My speculative diagram is on my flickr page, but I’m glad someone noticed that pan shot by the pool on the Taafe interview. I’ll try to make a comparison illustration from that. It’s not very good quality but at least it’s the same general view. Maybe it will be easier to explain that way.

          • But if those lights are the headlights, how do you explain what looks like the car passing the eph at 22:14?

            • I think the light seen in the eph at 22:14 is a car on RVC throwing stray light to the mail kiosk, perhaps but it doesn’t seem to be a car on TTL to me.

              FWIW if you look at the upper right, the houses across the pond on TOW light up about 20-30 seconds before all this is happening, which usually seems to mean a car coming in the front gate – and in this case turning left to head east on RVC. it starts about 21:39. I don’t know if they are related or not.

              It seem like between this and the 22:!4 event more than one car is moving around.

            • @willisnewton
              at 22:14 you just see the light of what I think are the headlights. But in the following frame you see something what I think looks like a car moving past the eph. if you check the eph video right after the car on TTL made a turn and the lights have disappeared on the ep video, you just see a light event in the eph video, but not a car moving past the eph. Makes me believe Zimmerman must have been somewhere in the first bend on TTL. The head lights in the ep video seem to subside and not suddenly disappear, so Zimmerman must have driven his car west/north enough for the headlights to no longer show up in the ep video before he turned of the lights.

        • About the light in the East Pool Hall seen at 07:08:51. I have a strong hunch it is the left headlight of a car/truck which is facing directly at the camera. It’s parked there still until 07:09:11 when you see the light shift a little to the right. I think this is the car/truck backing out slowly to the left of the video screen. That light disappears quickly and is gone at 07:09:22: Then you see a smaller light at 07:09:04:16, and is gone at 07:09:06:08, which I believe would be the right headlight of the car/truck that is now facing and driving to the right of camera. Very quickly after that you see the car/truck’s headlight appear in the poolside camera at 7:09:08 and the car slowly drives by and turns down TTL as it takes at least a good 10 seconds before the tail lights disappear from the middle of the “snowman”. Concur?

          • I disagree. To me this seems fairly plain. I think this is GZ’s car traveling south, perpendicular to the camera from left to right. We see the edge of the right headlight and then later the right taillight pass by as he pauses at the kiosk, then drives slowly away.

            It’s a bold enough move as it is, just trolling by where TM was waiting out the rain, according to Dee Dee. For him to head straight at the mail kiosk he’s have to block the street completely and also probably make a three point turn of some kind. I think GZ was still in “surveillance” mode at this point. TM may have done something instinctive and suspicious, like turn his back or wander away, but who knows for sure. In any case I think the car is heading south. It moves screen right as it pulls forward to reveal the tail light and continue down TTL.

            • @willis, I think you’re right, somehow I was thinking that there was a parking spot in front of the mail kiosk when there really is just a small walkway so a car and especially a truck wouldn’t be pulling up there on the grass. My bad. In any case, I agree that it’s a headlight of a vehicle parked there. Just before the round light blob shows up, you can see a faint illumination. The vehicle stops for several seconds before moving on past the pool and rounding the corner of TTL.

    • Thanks Whonoze,
      Excellent job. You are obviously better equiped to do some good editing than I am. This way it is accessible for more people.

  136. Whonoze,
    I really really love your video. It may have helped me identifying one more vehicle coming in the complex.

    ———————————————————-

    All and particularly Amsterdam & Whonoze,

    We have already identified R38 passing the gate at 39:52 in the vids.
    What I just noticed is that the vehicle passing the gate at 40:37 (45sec later) had bright red lights lighting inside the clubhouse and on the buildings across the pond. This one must be E38 coming in.
    R38 & E38 logged their On Scene 34sec apart at 7:27:26 & 7:28:00 resp.. So, with have only 10sec discrepancy between the videos and the logged from the two EMS vehicles.

    The 10 sec discrepancy indicates that the On Scene was not logged from the gate. Else, the 2nd EMS vehicle would have been seen 34sec after the 1st. To me it makes sense that emergency state that they are on scene when they really are. The issue is that I don’t know what the consider the scene. Is it where they park their vehicle or where the have their patient.
    If it is where they park their patient then you have to expect roughly 30sec to drive from the gate about JonW13’s. If JonW13’s townhouse is where they indeed stated they are on scene then, the vids started at about 6:46:53 (from E38) or 6:47:04 (from R38). So, my initial estimation would be off by 36 to 47 seconds.
    If the on scene was stated when emergency was by TM’s body then you have to account for the time to rush out of the EMS vehicle and get by the T. It can easily push the start time back 30sec to 6:46:23 (E38) or 6:46:34 (R38). So, the discrepancy with my initial estimate is 6 to 15 seconds.

    One thing look certain to me, the videos would not have started at 6:48 as claimed in the 2nd discovery. It would have meant that EMS stated that they are on scene before clearing the north gate of the complex. In the videos, R38 would have done it at 39:26 & E38 would have done it at 40:00. These times are even before the first blue/red lights are seen indicating that the EMS vehicles were not yet by the north gate.

    Overall, we should maybe try 3 start times: 6:46:17 (done), 6:47:04 (latest I can envision) & 6:46:40 (middle point) and evaluate the story for each for each time.

    • I’ve been trying times between 6:46:40 en 6:47:00. Whonoze’s format is better suitable for this purpose. I think the car passing the north gate at 34:02 may have been Raimondo. It fits approx the interval between the arrival of Smith and another car at the North gate, probably Ayala

      Smith 17:11 30:54
      Ayala 19:52 33:13
      Raimondo 20:46 34:02

      It makes sense that the 20:46 is near the gate, because it is registered as a dispatch time. That would make the start time of the videos approx 6:46:44. So very close to your estimate based on the EMS vehicles. I think it is a good idea to try 6:46:40 and 6:47:00.

      • Are you Dutch Amsterdam? I see you typed “en” i.s.o. “and”.
        I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this time issue and I really thanks you for helping me questioning my interpretation.

        Honestly, I can’t get beyond the fact that
        1) GZ gave instructions on how to get to his car from the north gate.
        2) LEOs Smith & Ayalay responded to the clubhouse.
        3) Smith then responded to W3 at 1231 TTL (http://i.imgur.com/2Bw1I.png)
        4) W3 saw police at 7:17:41 from her front room on 1213 TTL (http://i.imgur.com/ssTty.png).
        5) W3 was still talking about police not being at the right place 20-30 seconds after spotting them.
        6) W19 called late at 7:18:00 (http://i.imgur.com/KDXHbh.png) so no officer, including T. Smith, would be given 2821 RVC as an address before she called. So, they only had the clubhouse/mailboxes and W3’s place for address before 7:18:00.
        7) There is only one car caught by the clubhouse cameras going from the north gate to W3s early enough to be the police seen by W3.

        I really don’t see any other possibility but T. Smith being the one driving the car entering the complex at 30:54 (http://i.imgur.com/nFkZH.png).

        What that discussion helps me envisioning though is that T. Smith may have entered the complex after 7:17:11. He may have stated his arrival before passing the gate as he learned about the gunshot while en route. The scenario would have been something like dispatcher warning officers en route about the gunshot at RATL and T. Smith replying with “I’m arriving” as he is just 20 seconds away from the gate. Then, as soon as T. Smith gets W3’s address he switches to 1231 TTL. That happened at 7:17:36 which is about the time at which the car enters RATL assuming the start time is 6:46:40. It is also just seconds before being spotted by W3. It is also about 20sec before W19’s 911 call.

        What do you guys think of this?

        • Good catch Tchoupi, yes I am Dutch.
          I think you are right about Smith entering the gate around 17:36. That would mean 2 min 16 sec later Ayala arrives, and 54 sec later Raimondo arrives. If we match that with the light events at 30:54, 33:13 and 34:02, you have a car at the north gate 2 min 19 sec after the 30:54 and followed by another car 49 sec later. I would like to see the video with the clock at 6:46:40.

    • These times fit with the “fronmt door” vid from diwitaman (good typo, always makes it easy to find)

      39:41 HUGE and long mostly blue light, almost could be 2 vehicles as it goes on until 39:55, certainly something slow and lumbering, and maybe stopped to think which way to go
      40:37 short red light, knew the way, didn’t think about it.

      This camera seems to be outside facing in. On our right is a wall, on our left a column. So vehicles coming from the east shine through BEHIND the column, while those coming from the north gate light up the front of the column.

      • That’s correct; the camera is outside facing the door. This is why it is the most boring clear video of all.

    • @tchoupi
      Are there some words missing from this? Looks like a typo and I’m trying to understand the exact meaning

      “R38 & E38 logged their On Scene 34sec apart at 7:27:26 & 7:28:00 resp.. So, with have only 10sec discrepancy between the videos and the logged from the two EMS vehicles.”

      • I’m always typing in a rush. It is counter productive. The problem is that I know I won’t change it.
        R38 & E38 stated they were on scene at 7:27:26 & 7:28:00 respectively. So, they were 34sec apart.
        On the clubhouse videos, we see a vehicle with scanning blue light and then a vehicle with flashing red at 39:52 and 40:37 respectively. So, they were 45sec apart at the gates.
        What I meant is that it may look like a 11sec discrepancy but it’s nothing more than an indication that the vehicles did not stated they were on scene once they reached the gate.
        This is not really a surprise. I never took seriously that possibility. Instead, the scene may be where they park their EMS vehicles or by the patient. In any cases, the time it took from the gate to the scene was somehow 11sec shorter for the 2nd vehicle (E38).

        • yeah, second one knew where they were going. First one had to make sure where they were, before logging arrival. You can see from the length of their light event they slowed down to think which way to go. The second one could log arrival as soon as they saw the first one, because that “marked” the spot for them.

  137. When I adjusted the timing so what we assume to be GZ turning around finishes before he places the NEN call, (through the bloom on the left) that pushes the arrival of Smith so early that he would have been driving East on TTL when the gun went off, certainly able to hear the shot. I’m guessing even he would have reported that. Moving the video to any point later on the clock results in a pretty odd start time for the NEN call in terms of what we take to be the truck movements.

    I also tired placing the start of the NEN call at the point where GZ seems to be stopped in front of the mailboxes (with that circle of light in the East Hall camera). But that makes Smith arrive too late, as W3 would report seeing him before he’s even entered The Retreat.

    Anyway, yeah, the FL keystone cops are still pulling timelines out of their butts, and there’s zero chance the vids start at 6:48:00 or anything near there.

    Assuming W3 was looking toward the Clubhouse for an arriving squad car, and not just in front of her house, and roughly syncing her first mention of seeing an officer with the point where a squad car first would have become visible from her window, yields a start time for the video of 6:46:36, just 19 seconds later than the current speculation of 6:46:17. The angle of view from her window is pretty tight, and I don’t think she could have seen the cruiser when she says she does if the start time is 6:46:40. I tried 6:46:38, and even that seems a little tight, reducing her reaction-time to like nothing, so I think I’m holding out on 6:46:36 as being in your ballpark, and still possible for W3.

    Or does that 4 seconds introduce problematic anomalies to the other emergency vehicles?

    —

    Let me re-emphasize my point on the ‘Snowman’. I’ve done lighting for stage, TV, video and film on and off for over 35 years. The ‘Snowman’ is WAY WAY WAY (waywaywaywayway) too bright to be a porch light from that distance. No, the difference between a porch light and interior lights wouldn’t be THAT much. Just because there’s no obvious light source for the ‘Snowman’ visible doesn’t mean there isn’t one off-frame or otherwise obscured. And again, since it’s a reflection, it’s possible it’s a pool of beams coming from several different sources, including the two brighter, closer lights observable in the frame. Perhaps there’s also some kind of security light on the NE corner of the building along the South side of TTL (??)

    • If I had to guess, the big light could be from the mail kiosk. I would think it’ll have to be well-lighted area 24/7.

      • Never mind, we don’t see the big light from the East Pool Hall camera. I told you guys I’m no good at looking at videos. I’m gonna shut up now, carry on please…..

    • I may have it part of the solution. Check this http://imgur.com/a/q80xU
      The snowman light seems to be related to the street light across TTl from JohnW6.
      The red line in the 3rd image depicts (approximately) where the snowman can be.
      The red line has to be to the right of the bright light at the south east corner of the clubhouse (constant flare) and to the left of the street light by the swimming pool.
      Moreover, cars coming from the north gate briefly appear to the right of the snowman, then move into it before being seen to the left of the snowman. Later, the may be seen to the right again probably when they make the right turn at the curve.
      So, the range of possibilities is rather limited. The interesting thing is that the red line goes thru or by the street light across TTL by JohnW6’s house.

      Whonoze, from your expertize, Is it possible that street light creates the snowman?

      • I have a similar conclusion to tchoupi, and a laugh to share with whonoze – I too was a motion picture electrician and grip for many many years. Then I became a cameraman and the one thing i know for certain is that the best way to track down a camera question is to shoot tests.

        Having said that, and unable as we are to invade the RATL with a team of amateur re-enactors I did take a look at the Taafe interview B-Roll and made a crude line-up of the shot by the pool as an overlay.

        Check these out. I think it strongly suggests that the snowman’s head is the second streetlamp. His/her torso that seems to have cleavage seems to be the double garage doors and the legs/feet blob I still think is a reflection in the street of a street lamp, but now I think it is the reflection of the 2nd street lamp, the one opposite John/W6’s house.

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157631654933732/with/8038087425/

        • I think you are right. The cars driving east on TTL at 7:19:01 and 7:19:31 give a clear picture. The bottom part of the snowman is blocked when the cars go through the first bend and you can see the rearlights. The cars then seem to disappear in the blind spot, and seconds after that something seems to move past the right garage door.
          At about 24:25 you can see a light appear above the right side of the snowman next to the head. That is probably John’s top window.
          ,
          I think Zimmerman made a uturn and parked nearer to the first bend facing the clubhouse. But I am sure he was following Trayvon in his car. I think he may not have made a uturn, but instead backed into one of the driveways on the south side of TTL, and then followed Trayvon close to the left side of the road. He probably disappeared immediately in the blind spot or he didn’t turn on his lights until he was already in the blind spot.

          • @amsterdam:

            GZ also may have reversed down the blind spot (north lane of E-W TTL) without making a second U turn at all. Imagine how intimidating that would seem. It’s even more deliberately “following” than someone who changes direction, when you think about it. Of course if he did that his car ended up facing west and not wast as he claims. (where are those danged dash cams?)

            I do think the way cars move into and out of the blind spot is significant; and I know what you are saying about the very few times anything is visible to the screen right of the snowman. I’m still trying to formulate a better opinion but I think we are all groping towards a consensus.

            I’ll look at the timing you suggest now… I added some more to my flickr set about all this if you haven’t seen it already, a diagram about my latest thought that the snowman’s head is the deeper background streetlight.

    • Whonoze,
      I’ll wait for your results concerning the vids start time. From what I feel, anytime between 6:46:17 & 6:46:40 seem reasonable. Only seeing the resulting video would help shrink down the range.
      Honestly speaking, I ruled out 6:48 a long time ago. Amsterdam reached the same conclusion independently. You reached the same conclusion too.
      Working together helped narrowing down the range of possibilities to less that 23sec. This is pretty amazing.
      I agree with you that police did a poor job with the videos. The sad conclusion is that they are not exploiting the mine of information it contains. I’m afraid they will never do.

    • We could go around and around about what’s possible to show up on a cheesy digital surveillance camera in the rain at night, etc. but why bother. Let’s agree to disagree until we can know more.

      One thing to consider however is the effect I’d compare to “pre-flashing” motion picture film, where a light brings the contrast down but the sensitivity up.

      See my notes below about what I thing the snowman represents. (besides of course the symbology of man’s inhumanity to man, and something about my mother not taking better care of me as an infant, etc lol)

      • Did I break the threads? I was trying to reply to whonose about the possibility of the “snowman” artifact being small incandescent porch lights or not.

        Another issue to consider is what type of camera this is. When the headlights mAke the constant flare bloom, it reminds me of old tube cameras . The fact that the signal is recorded digitally and the halfway decent low light sensitivity makes me doubt this is the case however.

        The only pictures I’ve seen of the cameras in the development are tv shots of the non functioning gate camera. Are there other pictures of what these surveillance cameras look like? My best guess at present would be that they are small CCD units in outdoor housing when needed.

        I hear you, agonize when you say sometimes it seems the snowman light sources seem closer than the distant vehicles. If the snowman’s head and feet are indeed the second streetlamp and it’s a sodium vapor unit – yellowish orange color temperature – then the lamp unit and the street reflection ARE closer than the most distant car lights.

  138. That people agree to ‘agree to disagree’ agreements makes me disagreeable, so I can’t go there because for me there’s no there there to which to go. 😉

    I do propose we should follow willis and change the light figure’s gender.

    I shall now concur that I suspect the main light source of Snowmama is that streetlight across from JohnW6, but IMHO it’s all reflection as methinks the camera angle doesn’t actually include the 12XX TTL building at all, much less the head of the streetlight.

    • As there are no anatomical or socially identifying factors, It should be gender neutral: snowperson.

      • ** insert tongue in cheek**
        No anatomical factors? Willis sees cleavage. I suppose those could be man boobs, but I definitely see child bearing hips. ‘Snow Person’ has no poetry, no je ne se quoi (sorry tchoupi). Nobody had a problem with ‘Snowman’: male gendering goes unchallanged. But label something important as female and people start thinking twice. I smell something fishy, and I think it’s misogyny!

        Of the dramatis personae of our tale, who does the SnowOne resemble?
        GZ, no. Trayvon, no. MOM, no. FT, no. RZpere, no. RZfils, no. MO, no. TracyM, no.

        Shellie Zimmerman? Sybrina Fulton? Sondra Osterman? Brandi Green?

        Besides Snowmen can be abominable, and Snowmama is casting light on the events of 2/26 that help show us the way, nurture our search for the truth. And we all know truth-finding in the case is a real mother.

        So I’m stuckin’ with Snowmama.

        **remove tongue from cheek. apologize to all non-US readers who may miss the bits of idiomatic wordplay**

        • How about “the snowM’am?” (And you forgot Angela Corey as a model.)

          joke: How come women don’t have any brains? A: because they don’t have a penis to put them in.

          On a serious note, there is also the negative space screen right of the snowmam that I called his/her “fort.” What the heck is that? It’s a dark square where more odd things happen or don’t.

        • Cleavage? Snow boobs? LOL. In truth squad lingo “Qu’est-ce que c’est que ca?”, translation “What the H – E – double hockey sticks is that?” Oh mon dieu, je ne sais plus. Think we’ve all been staring at light bulbs (didn’t your mama tell you not to?) and squiggly line graphs for too long.

          • It looks like we’re slowly switching to French. I just want to let you know that I’m all for it.

            • Sorry, tchoupi, you won’t get that much more French outta me. Je parle francais comme une vache espanole.

            • Ja, ik ben uit Frankreich, Amsterdam.

              WSI, you may spell French as a “Spanish cow” (per the say) but you seem to be speaking it right.

    • awesome, thanks whonoze for the steady efforts – we’re inching towards a consensus so either we’re all right or we are all crazy. Story of my life.

    • Thanks whonoze,
      I think this one is pretty damn close. Arrivals of Smith, Ayala and Raimondo allign, Smith is passing the first bend on TTL when w3 says she can see the police.
      30 seconds after we see the car, who I think is Raimondo, pass the gate, you can see the unrelated light event in the eph. I think that may be the lights of Raimondo’s car parking at the cut-through on RVC. Thirty seconds later, w18 says, I think that is another officer.
      The lights of the emergency vehicles at the gate do not line up with their stated arrival times, but the moment you see the flashing blue lights, w18 says “I can hear the sirens” and right after they turn onto RVC, she says that there are a lot of vehicles in front. So it would make sense that they logged their arrival on scene, when they actually got to the scene.

      • I think we are close on the sync as well. It’s just a general feeling at present based on GZ’s parking / calling NEN times, but if forced to say one way or the other I think audio is slightly ahead of picture at present. But not by much at all – we are working with a 20 second window of time it seems like.

      • Whonoze, Amsterdam,

        From what I can tell we’re on spot when using 6:46:36 as the start time.

        T. Smith arrival in the complex (7:17:36) is right before before W3 mentions police to dispatcher. This is also the time he logs his DIS & ENR to W3’s 911 call.

        There is a car entering complex right at the moment Ayala logs his DIS and ENR to W3 (7:19:52). That car doesn’t go to Wit #3’s house though. It turns left on RVC toward W18. This is the shortest way to meet LEo Smith. I must tell that at that time everybody knew that the guy who fired the gun was in Smith’s custody.

        There is a car entering the right at the time Raimondo logs his DIS and ENR to W3’s 911 call (7:20:46). As for Ayala’s car this car turns left on RVC. Raimondo’s tape was made public. We can hear him ask where to turn from the gate. It might be interesting to add those sound tracks. I can provide many of them if needed.
        Another interesting thing is that nearly 30sec after Raimondo’s arrival at the gate, we have the phantom light on the EPH vid (7:21:12). I had made the hypothesis that this light was coming straight from the T area as there is no car on TTL or by the gate associated with it. I proposed that this is a police car on RVC by the T shedding light in such a way that it would light toward the clubhouse. 30sec is good enough for Raimondo to drive from the gate to the T on RVC.
        Just 45sec after the phantom light (7:21:47), we have W18 saying that another officer is coming. It must be Raimondo as we know that at 7:23 he starts CPR.

        One thing that is really powerful is W18 saying that she can hear lots of sirens right when R38 is seen approaching the gate (7:26:15). It SFD’s logs show that R38 is on scene at 7:27:26 (53sec after clearing the gate 7:26:33).

        At 7:27:12 we can see E38 at the gate. SFD logs show E38 is on scene at 7:28:00 (42sec after clearing the gate 7:27:18).

        —-

        So, Whonoze you nailed it. The start time is 6:46:36. I would not assume more than 3sec margin of error on this.

  140. WSI,

    I have questions concerning the FDLE bio evidence.

    STR locus TH01 has 9.3 repeats from GZ. What does it mean?

    I understand that the core of the procedure is to segregate known STR loci by their length. We then get a signal which represents the amount of alleles found for each STR length. The signal shows up as intensity peaks. Are those peaks counts of copies of the allele generated during a pre-amplification phase of the process? I see only integer #.

    If they are copies created by an amplification as I suspect, should I expect the peaks from two alleles an individual has to be of about the same size? Let say an individual contributed alleles A1 & A2 from locus L. If after amplification and segregation I count n of A1 should I expect about n f A2?

    As for everything in the art of measurement, there is the signal and the noise and we have to decide which one wins. But the signal itself can be distorted due to the measurement method adding to the difficulty of interpreting the data. Something I noticed is that the little peaks which you have to decide whether they are signal or noise are much more often 1 unit to the left of a major signal. Is there a distortion mechanism introduced by the method?

    Measurement has been repeated twice for a few loci. They give an idea of what to expect in terms of repeatability. It look quite good (~10% accuracy) for most loci / STR length. However I noticed two surprising cases:
    1) D3S1358 length 15. The count is 98 at 1st run and 168 at repeat. This is + 70% or 70 counts!
    2) D7S820 length 8. Nothing is seen at 1st run and 65 is counted at repeat.
    3) D7S820 length 9. The count is 66 at 1st run but nothing but a very small peak is seen at repeat.

    (1), (2) & (3) suggest the noise floor is at 70 counts or higher. However, (2) & (3) suggest also the possibility of a signal can be misplaced let say seen at length n in one run and then length n+1 at a next run.

    At this point, it seem to me that any peak below 70 counts must be taken cautiously.

    One last question. Is there some calibration runs like running the procedure with control samples? If yes, at are the control samples in question?

    I haven’t started comparing the data from the holster with TM & GZ samples. I’m just starting warming up with what the data look like.

    • Hi tchoupi, see you’re getting your feet wet already.
      Question: “STR locus TH01 has 9.3 repeats from GZ.” Generally, these tandem repeats are the same GATAGATAGATAGATA ,etc. So when you run the DNA fragments out on a gel, they are separated by exactly 4 bases (on the graph, they’d be seen as evenly spaced peaks).
      Answer: Sometimes, you get “off-ladder” alleles which contain for example a single base pair insertion or deletion. So you might get GATA(extra T here)GATAGATAGATA. This allele then is shifted by only one base pair, so it gets assigned a non-rounded integer number like 9.3. See this page 2 of this PDF. http://www.cstl.nist.gov/strbase/pub_pres/BodeEast-May2009-Kline.pdf There are other microvariants that they’ve found by sequencing, where there is no change in size of the allele but rather a single base pair mutation. These would not be seen by just running the standard PCR test.

      Question: “the core of the procedure is to segregate known STR loci by their length. We then get a signal which represents the amount of alleles found for each STR length. The signal shows up as intensity peaks. Are those peaks counts of copies of the allele generated during a pre-amplification phase of the process?”
      Answer: The RLUs (high of the peaks) are the intensity of the fluorescent dyes that get attached to each copy of DNA that is amplified during the PCR process. Although it represents the relative abundance of starting DNA (shorter peaks, less DNA; higher peaks, more DNA), It does not directly represent the copy number. (BTW, PCR amplification goes through a linear phase when it would be possible to quantify DNA copies (real-time PCR), but here the goal is to detect any trace of DNA so they measure the signal at the end of the amplification process. By this time, it’s no longer in the linear phase but a plateau saturation phase and therefore not precisely quantitative.)

      Question: If they are copies created by an amplification as I suspect, should I expect the peaks from two alleles an individual has to be of about the same size? Let say an individual contributed alleles A1 & A2 from locus L. If after amplification and segregation I count n of A1 should I expect about n f A2?
      Answer: No, different factors affect how much RFU signal you get for any given allele, such as how well the primers bind to the DNA for the PCR amplification (this is a thermodynamic process that is affected by different sequences of the primers annealing to the DNA), different properties of the different fluorescent dyes giving off different intensities per molecule. For illustration purposes only, if all else is equal, say a red dye gives off 1 RLU per molecule and a red dye gives off 1.5 RLU. Then 100 copies of locus A labeled with a red dye produces 100 RLU, while 100 copies of locus B labeled with a green dye gives off 150 RLUs.

      Question: But the signal itself can be distorted due to the measurement method adding to the difficulty of interpreting the data. Something I noticed is that the little peaks which you have to decide whether they are signal or noise are much more often 1 unit to the left of a major signal. Is there a distortion mechanism introduced by the method?
      Answer: As noted above, there is a possibility of off-ladder alleles which shift the signal slightly. I will say that a 100 base pair long Allele 1 would not necessarily be the same apparent length as a 100 base pair long Allele 2. This is because different sequences of the DNA affect how they run relative to each other. This is corrected by internal standards run at the same time.

      Question: Measurement has been repeated twice for a few loci.
      Answer: I think you’re misunderstanding the graphs. I’m not sure what you mean by the measurement being repeated for just a few loci. If they re-run the test, they have to re-run the whole sample. I don’t think holster/gun DNA samples were repeated. ME-3 Martin, which is DNA taken from TM’s body to create the profile so there’s lots of DNA, was repeated. The first time it was run, the sample ID was 12AVG76.1. There was too much DNA so some of the peaks were offscale (marked as OS on the summary sheet). So they re-ran the sample (ID 12AVG76.1) and diluted it so it would be on scale. For blood stains, since there’s so much DNA at times, they have to dilute it 1:10 or 1:100 (for example look at page 163, this is the template sheet that shows names and diliutions made of samples), so the signal peaks change according to the dilution. CAUTION: This is biology, not physics. A 1:10 dilution does not mean you should expect exactly 1/10th of the signal, and in terms of repeatability. Remember, that this is NOT QUANTITATIVE.
      The noise floor is run-specific and different between samples. Note that with more DNA such as that obtained from blood stains, you’ll get more noise. You cannot compare that noise with the runs from dry surface samples like the gun/holster, which is really very low.
      With the blood stain samples, you often see a little bump before the big peak. This is the “stutter” I was talking about. Much more likely to get with that much DNA. Those can be appropriately ignored.

      Question: Is there some calibration runs like running the procedure with control samples? If yes, at are the control samples in question?
      Answer: they do have negative and positive control samples. In the report, they always note whether there were anomalies with these controls. They always write in the notes that the controls were OK so I accept it for now. Will look at them later.

      • @Tchoupi, I think I misunderstood one of your questions, let me try again:
        Your Question: “Something I noticed is that the little peaks which you have to decide whether they are signal or noise are much more often 1 unit to the left of a major signal. Is there a distortion mechanism introduced by the method?”
        Answer: The units on the x-axis of the graphs represent base pairs of DNA, so the little bumps you see before the major peaks should be more like 4 base pairs (the size of each of the repeats). These are what I called stutter peaks which are missing one repeat (4 base pairs). They are artifacts of the PCR. During amplification, the paired DNA strands repeatedly get separated into single DNA strands which then get copied by a polymerase enzyme. Because of the repeats, the new DNA strand being copied skips over a repeat so the new DNA strand ends up being short one repeat. So then this short strand gets duplicated in the subsequent cycles. Usually, the stutter peaks are on average about 5-10% of the major peak. In mixed DNA samples, they can sometimes mask an allele from a minor contributor that happens to be the same size.

        One other thing. one of the controls of the assay is that they run an allelic ladder (you’ll see “ladder” samples in the report) which is a standard sample from the commercial kit which contains a synthesized mix of the different sized DNA strands as an internal control. Therefore, the assay is calibrated so that it can accurately match up the size of the amplified DNA with the ladder (See page 113 “Run analysis form” for an example of their notes on controls)

        • WSI,

          That’s all helpful for me to have a grab to what is going on. It looks a lot like the chemistry labs that I had in college.
          I’m impressed by the mechanism involved and how smart but simple the core of the process is. That said, I have been burned enough times in my professional domain to know that the devil hides in details. Therefore I have to have some level of understanding of the technicality involved before reading measurement data.
          I’m happy to see that my questions make sense to you in spite of the terminology being rather off. Don’t expect me doing better than babbling your bio-lingo for the rest of my life. Just read my English and you’ll understand what I’m talking about.

          The process, as you explain it makes sense to me . Thanks a lot.

          Concerning the stutter peaks, you mention 5% to 10% of the ‘mother’ peak. That seems like a rather large percentage. Checking on the charts, the possible stutters seem to be much smaller than 10% in terms of intensity.
          I understood that the measurement scale is not linear but tends to saturate. So, if the ‘mother’ peak is at 1000, I expect the stutter to be > 100 since the ‘mother’ peak is further in the saturation regime of the measurement method.
          I think it is fortunate that stutter peaks are much smaller than 10% in the samples shown. Indeed, most of minor peaks would have been hidden.

          Concerning the repeat, it looks like pages 70 & 71 complete pages 60 & 61 with D16S539, TH01, TPOX & CSF1PO. At the same occasion, those pages repeat D3S1358 & D7S820.
          Tell me if I got it wrong as I try to get confidence in what I can understand.
          If I’m right, could you comment on my initial questions concerning the repeat.

          You’re right concerning the controls. I see their charts. It would have been nice to get the noise’s stddev from the negative controls, this is the easiest way to set the noise floor.
          In general, the real noise floor is well below 20. That said, there are noise peaks above 30 and one I saw above 42.

          Thanks again

          • @tchoupi, looks like you’re right, they did repeat the samples on different plates (check plate records). I’ve been scrolling around the 262 page document and missed it. Don’t have time to look at the data now. The stutter peaks in commercial kits should be low since they’ve obviously tried to optimize the assay. I quoted 5-10% from a paper I read but that could be from “homemade” assays. I would expect it to be closer to 5% or lower here. Will comment more later when I have a chance to compare the duplicates. (The numbers such as B02 or B06 at the beginning of the sample names at the top of each graph correspond to their position on the plates shown on the plate record). I need to catch up on my real work.

            BTW: You would NOT want to hear my french accent.

          • @Tchoupi, Like SnowMama, stare at her “orbs/peaks” for long enough and you’ll believe they’re real.

            I’ve tried to answer you twice, but WordPress won’t take my links. So I figured out that the test was run using 2 kits. The first is AmpF/STR Profiler kit which amplifies the first 9 loci plus X/Y (up to and including D7S820 on the summary chart). You are right the second data set completes the profile. It was done using the AmpF/STR COfiler kit which should amplify D7S820, D16S539, TH01, TPOX, CSF1PO, and D3S1358. So yes, D3S1358 and D7S820 are repeated because of the overlap in these kits.

            To answer your original questions:
            1) D3S1358 length 15. The count is 98 at 1st run and 168 at repeat. This is + 70% or 70 counts!
            Biologically, less than a two fold difference is not a big deal. Also, this was not a true repeat in the sense that different kits were used (same manufacturer but you have different numbers of primers in each reaction, you use different master mixes, etc, so variation is higher than with the same kit).

            2) D7S820 length 8. Nothing is seen at 1st run and 65 is counted at repeat.
            It’s near the limit of detection. If you run the sample 100 times, you might not get a signal half the time.
            3) D7S820 length 9. The count is 66 at 1st run but nothing but a very small peak is seen at repeat.
            Same answer as for question 2. Since the peak is below the calculated limit of detection for that run, they did not bother to assign it a value.

  142. Witness 18 files are up but not a composite yet.

    I’d like your help. W18’s testimony provides a backbone for the investigation. Said she didn’t want to be a witness then went on CNN, hired a private investigator, talked and talked. It’s pretty clear what she knows. She heard loud dominant arguing 10 minutes before W11 did. This is even before the NEN call! She looked on and off at the wrestling and the shot. Her 911 call starts right after the shot and goes 14 minutes. She gave an interview and a written statement that same night.

    I’d like as many of you as will to listen or read through her files and identify as many events as you can. What do I mean by an event? Something that happened in space and time. The gunshot is an event. Don’t be concerned with the actual times unless that helps you. An event can’t be broken down any further. That would be two events instead of one. The witness may go on and on with description, interpretation, or speculation about events. I’m just looking for the events themselves with short names, like loud argument or gunshot, opens window, sees flashlight. She will probably have 20 or 30 events I’m guessing. If you can, put them in chrono order. But the investigators don’t go chrono and neither does the witness. That’s the hard part. Of course, the phone call is chrono.

    This event list is a step in the process of making testimony useful. We have to process the testimony to understand it and be able to use it efficiently. I’m kinda running out of gas and I have something really big happening in my life right now. But, I’ll make a W18 event list, too.

    Then come back and share your list. We’ll compare.

    • “…and I have something really big happening in my life right now.”

      SJ, I hope a good something! I’m almost running on empty with this case, but I will try my best to make an event list ASAP.

    • SJ – Still plan on trying to get out an event list for you. I’ve been interrupted every f’n time I’ve attempted to listen to her statements to make the list. GRRR!

    • Spanish has a word “Mañana”. Means I’m not going to get that done today. I have Wednesday off and will have a list by sundown. I hope.

      Dee Dee did not hear Trayvon in an argument like W18 describes going on 10 minutes early while he would have been under the mailboxes. Going along with the gang w11&w20 describe later, I’m wondering if there were two or more people out scanning for TM before they located him at the mailboxes. They might yell to each other at a distance, “Yo, nobody over here.” “No, not here either.” “Go to the next building.” It’s knuckleheaded, I realize, but seems to fit with W18 and w1 or w2 who say they heard yelling of Yo or No.

      One other big piece I thought about w18. The end of her 911 call may be considered to be the end of the crime. Remember the clubhouse videos given out are 45 minutes long. Maybe that 45 minutes ends when w18 hung up.

      • Yeah, I’m seriously confused on the voices she heard 10 minutes prior. And I still definitely don’t get how W11 & W20 thought it sounded like a group of drunken people, lol. They thought it sounded like a bunch of guys jumping one… So, so weird, but then again… I haven’t trusted them since the beginning, heh.

        • Not to be an itch, but scared people often hear and imagine things. Could she have heard the dog and Austin yelling to control the dog’s escape as the dog got off it’s leash?

          • W11? I don’t think so. That was the first thing she heard, which was what grabbed her attention so early. Austin’s dog didn’t pull away til right before the shot.

            W6 thinks thinks the fight was 5 minutes
            W11 & W20 think there’s a group of drunk people
            W18 hears loud voices approx. 10 minutes earlier then hears them again in a loud argument before she goes to look out

            That sounds to me like something was happening before we know GZ & TM to be back there.

            • …or like none of the witness has its internal clock straight.
              This is the most probable explanation as they are no robot and they were in panic mode.

            • W18 said her ten minute gap thing but later seems less sure of the real length of time. Eyewitnesses do their best but are notoriously unreliable. Ten literal minutes before the final altercation, we know GZ and TM were elsewhere. W18 never said she looked at her watch or that her tv show was ending, etc. She was incredibly distraught, and rightfully so. I think it’s safe to say that her memory may be inaccurate about the time gap, but it’s probably correct that she heard something prior to what we hear on W11’s 911 call. But the gap could be 45 seconds, who knows?

              Did you hear dogs barking or a train going by last night? When was it? (See what I mean?)

            • I agree with both of you here (tchoupi and willisnewton). My point is that I think all three heard something at some point (10s, 10m, whatever…) before what we all know as the time the two were behind the houses… I think W6, W11, and W20 have meshed whatever they heard before all in with when we know the calls started coming in to 911, but that W18 made sure to point out there was a gap.

              I wonder if they possibly heard GZ and TM on their phones before the fight began. I think this is likely.

    • W18 Event List:

      Loud (?) Voices
      Loud Argument (Approx. 10m after 1st event)
      Looks out window
      Shuts off light
      Opens window (?)
      Sees (2 men) wrestling
      Hears cries for help
      Grabbed phone
      Shot went off
      Calls 911
      GZ stands
      GZ walks north
      Flashlight man appears (JonW13)
      Sees TM on ground/grass
      Another person w flashlight (LEO T. Smith?)
      GZ surrenders
      GZ admits shooting
      Sees another person (2nd LEO on scene?)
      Light shined on TM
      Officer takes GZ
      Looking at TM
      Hears cars
      Sees cars
      Hangs up

      After JonW13 comes out, she mentions (in her 911 call) something about taking the flashlight, but doesn’t complete the thought. What was happening here before LEO got on scene? I didn’t include in the event log because I couldn’t figure out the event, lol…

      As for when she opens her window, I’m confused. She tells Serino she opened the window early on, but I believe she doesn’t mention opening the window until much later in the call to the dispatcher… Can anyone clear this up?

      I hope this helps, SJ.

      • @QETNO and JAY,
        To add to/correct your event list, qetno, W18 does not open her window until she’s on the phone with 911 and says “I can open my window and hear it, if you want me to”. That’s when she was able to hear GZ surrender and say I shot the guy. This means that the voices she heard before had to have been loud enough for her to hear thru a closed window.

        Another curious thing I heard was that she refers to cellphone Jon a couple of times coming out WITH a flashlight, but then she says “Somebody’s out there taking a flashlight” . I’m not sure she is still talking about Jon or possibly now another person but wanted to say “Somebody’s taken a flashlight out there to see what’s going on.” That “taking a flashlight” is odd phrasing to me. Does it mean somebody picked up one of the evidence flashlights? She sounded so distraught at that point she wasn’t interpreting things well, but did seem eager to report things just as she saw them happening. Any thoughts?

        • Thanks for your input on when she opens the window, WSI. To Serino, though, she mentions opening the window where I placed it in the event list. Since she couldn’t see much when she first looked out, maybe when she says “open window” to Serino she just means lifted the blinds to look out again?

          I believe she is talking about GZ and Jon when discussing taking the flashlight, not other people. She is reporting their movements when she makes that remark. I think she got distracted by the LEO officer arriving on scene, so she didn’t finish her thought. I kind of thought she was about to say they were taking the flashlight and shining it on TM/shining it around.

          • Really, qetno (Yup, talking to myself…), Law Enforcement Officer officer?!

          • @Qetno, yeah W18 does say to Serino “I think I opened a window” but she didn’t seem sure. She could have opened a window and then closed it earlier or she was at a different window when she made the call. But in any case, it really seems to me like she was asking the dispatcher if she should open the window so she could hear more to report (she says “if you want me to”). And she was then able to clearly hear them talking out there after. So one or two windows, who knows?

            • You are correct. She said something about that she could hear them then said something about she could open the window… This is why I was so confused. I’ll have to go back and listen to her again with Serino because I don’t recall her sounding confused. It’s a small discrepancy, so I don’t think it matters much in terms of her testimony, but just wanted to be accurate with the event list. Thanks!

          • 7:18 W 18 says to Dispatch” someone’s coming up the sidewalk with a flashlight”
            ” taking” is a typo.
            There are other typos in all witness statements listed in google docs–one or two aren’t even a word. Nothing odd about typos but she has given so many interviews, I don’t understand why this is even a point?

            As to TM possible DNA on holster and Treehouse doesn’t read bcc…MOM does ( see Miami Herald article ” everybody needs a hobby”. If a DNA professional lab doesn’t determine TM’s DNA on holster, why are we?

            I live in Fl. folks, GZ is going to have a jury of his peers and that means someone retired and probably conservative or too stupid to get out of jury duty ( also not highly educated, right wing, etc.) so why in the “name of truth ” are the scientific experts here handing them anything ? The c. Anthony trial was lost because some pertinent evidence was excluded. Our legal system is adversarial and not about truth and justice. That is European system..not ours

            Thank you everyone for helping me learn so much but I can’t read this” is TM’s DNA on GZ,s holster” because if you find it, make no mistake it will be used.

            • Well, now I am confused. If she said “taking a flashlight” she might be referring to w13/Jon’s iPhone 4 photo. That phone uses a flash to take photos, as can be seen in the bloody head pic and the poor zerox copies of the flashlight and flashlight/body pictures. But I’m unsure if or what she truly said, now that someone mentions a typo in the transcription, But keep in mind that w13/Jon took THREE flash photos before or as SMith was arriving. The bloody head photo’s time stamp is known, and it’s an iPhone so the time would be accurate.
              I’ll leave it to others to decide if this is what she spoke about; but if she was looking out the window then she probably saw the strobe light firing as the three pictures were taken.

              It’s possible also that there could be a “red-eye reduction” setting on the iPhone’s camera, that causes the flash to cycle a few times in a pre-shutter action that is meant to make people’s iris’s close and reduce the “red eye” look. I don’t know enough about the iPhone 4 to say however.

            • W18 DOES – in fact – mention taking the flashlight. I listened to the audio myself to write that event list, lol. She mentions seeing someone come out/around with a flashlight then later says something along the lines of “they’re taking the flashlight,” but she just doesn’t seem to finish that particular thought because another event happens quickly that she goes on to describe.

            • @2dogs –

              ” If a DNA professional lab doesn’t determine TM’s DNA on holster, why are we?”

              Exactly!

              “so why in the “name of truth ” are the scientific experts here handing them anything ?”

              Ouch! You hit my other underlying discomfort. If O’Mara needs an argument, he should pay for it and dip into Z’s accumulated coffers.

            • @CSFC and 2dogs only,
              We’re not handing them anything. Who’s gonna listen to me and my nine cats? (little joke/reference to the Robles article about the “truth squad”….I don’t have nine cats, or dogs). The data is there for them to see and they have access to better qualified people to a make sense of it if they wanted to. I’m just letting you guys know what I see. Personally, whether there’s DNA there or not, it can be spun both ways and this case isn’t going to be decided on it. There’s plenty of other evidence to work with in this case for a conviction.

        • @WSI –

          I know I owe you a response elsewhere (and I will get to it!), but I take exception to your characterization of W18’s accounts as “so distraught at that point she wasn’t interpreting things well”. Her informative, emotional account told us a great deal, imo.

          – a boy was killed and she couldn’t ascertain any reason for it
          – there were two incidences that interrupted her peace enough to pay attention
          – her neighborhood is a good one where one doesn’t expect backyard killings
          – her concerns about her own safety revolved around being a witness
          – the voice heard needing help/intervention was that of a child
          – flashlights were seen after the kill
          – whatever she saw left her puzzled as to why a child was killed
          – an Hispanic-looking man did the killing
          – an officer’s visit was welcomed

          I know you are looking at the data we’ve recently become privy to (a good thing!), but I have to question your interpretation since only pro-Zimmerman orgs have pushed inconclusive as meaning Trayvon Martin’s dna is present. As a matter of fact, one of the regulars on RC and TL have said the same thing for months now.

          The thing preventing me from quitting my day job to explore the possibility that charts and data *could* exonerate Zimmerman is that nasty little sticking point that Zimmerman said in his own words (and this was backed by witnesses) that he altered the crime scene (and dna evidence (and blood evidence) by touching/moving the victim’s body and frisking him and pushing blood out of the victim’s body to obstruct the natural gravitational flow of the blood out of one’s body when exposed to an internal injury from a hollow-point bullet)).

          There’s really no peak or valley that I can entertain or explore via charts that can overcome Zimmerman’s tainting of the evidence by his admitted actions.

          My interest was/is only mild. Sorry!

          I can only encourage you to look at the ‘how it got there side’ before you approach the ‘what is there side’ of things. IMO, it makes a difference.

          • CSFC

            As far as W18, I agree, she is very clear on what she heard and saw. VERY. She does not back down on what she heard or saw. When asked a question that she can’t answer because she did not hear or see, she clearly states that she is not able to answer or speculate. Sounds like a good, solid witness to me.

          • Gosh darnit! CSFC, if you’re gonna quote me, write the whole sentence: “She sounded so distraught at that point she wasn’t interpreting things well, but did seem eager to report things just as she saw them happening.” Before that I was just questioning her phrasing of the sentence “Somebody’s out there taking a flashlight” and trying to get at the meaning of “taking a flashlight”. I think QETNO gave a reasonable answer in saying that it was probably an incomplete thought, about somebody “taking a flashlight and shining it on the body, etc.”

            I do agree and have said so in the past that she is careful later on to say exactly what she saw when she was in a calmer state, even an hour later sitting down with Serino. And when talking to Anderson later in an interview. She is one of the most reliable witnesses in that regard. Unlike the others who imagined a bunch of guys jumping TM etc. My word “interpreting” in the context of my comment was about her being distraught and saying multiple times there’s somebody out there with a flashlight, and then I was just zeroing in on the “Somebody’s out there taking a flashlight” to seem if it could mean she possibly saw somebody pick up a flashlight off the ground. Pure conjecture on my part but I know that if we got her on the witness stand, she’d be able to tell us more of what she might have seen if asked the right questions. But “at that point” when she was on the phone, she was clearly emotional so we have to “interpret” what she’s “interpreting” in real time. It seems like most of what she says lines up, but other things don’t like when she opened the window or if she was talking about the same window, etc. I guess this is what they call monday night quarterbacking?

            You said: “but I have to question your interpretation since only pro-Zimmerman orgs have pushed inconclusive as meaning Trayvon Martin’s dna is present. As a matter of fact, one of the regulars on RC and TL have said the same thing for months now.”

            And again, gosh darnit! Are you accusing me of being a pro-GZ supporter? OK, maybe now I”M misinterpreting your statement, but I don’t know how else to read your response about my comment to W18 and then tacking this comment about the DNA stuff. THIS HAS ME VERY UPSET ACTUALLY! I know I’ve told you guys I lurk over at nuthouse quite a bit, just to get some gossipy info (MO, crazy OG lady). But believe you me, I haven’t been tainted by their idiotic logic. I addressed you regarding the DNA stuff because I thought you had a science background and we had discussions about DNA in the past. But I guess you haven’t read completely or understood any of my posts. I have absolutely NO motive whatsoever here except to figure out the truth. I don’t know either of the parties involved. Not that it even matters one iota of a difference, but my race isn’t even of any of the parties involved. But there’s a reason why I only post here. I don’t post at Leathermans, the nuthouse, TL or anywhere. I found this place because there were people like Tchoupi, Whonoze, NLME who are interested in getting out the tapemeasure and examining evidence. I do believe that GZ is lying about many things, but he can’t lie about DNA. It’s there or it’s not. I’m trying to find that out. BTW, I did not jump on the idea of looking for TM’s DNA on the gun/holster because somebody else said “inconclusive means TM’s DNA is present” I don’t read TL and I don’t even know what RC is. But what they’re pushing for is the simple-minded argument as I will explain below.

            You said “Sorry! I can only encourage you to look at the ‘how it got there side’ before you approach the ‘what is there side’ of things. IMO, it makes a difference.”
            HUH????? How can you explore how it got there if you haven’t determined conclusively via examining actual evidence to determine that it is there?????

            Now since it’s clear you haven’t read fully or understood my previous posts, let me TRY and explain the DNA thing. The public is simple minded. They jumped on the bandwagon reporting 1000 times that DNA was not on the gun and oh my god it was gonna send GZ to jail, with the simple idea that TM’s DNA on the gun meant that GZ had no choice but to shoot.
            Now, those of us on these forums know full well that GZ never said TM touched the gun, only that he reached for it. Only MO claimed that but that’s another story. Now, what I have been trying to report to you guys these last few days is my belief that there are traces of TM’s DNA on the holster (originally I said maybe the slide of the gun but at closer inspection, I can’t conclude that). How is it that I can say this when the report says “inconclusive”? Because I looked at the raw data and the analyst marked a number of alleles (genes) with a * to indicate something was detected but it fell below a threshold of being, I pulled out a number of those genes from the raw data and to me it seems likely TM’s DNA was there on the holster. I have not had time to type the whole massive data set to present any time soon, but Tchoupi has been great in looking at the data with me. He’s much better at statistics than me, so he’ll be able to give an independent conclusion.

            Now I have said in my previous post that this data has to be VERY CAREFULLY presented to the simpleminded public who will say AHA! TM’s DNA on the holster means GZ had no choice but to shoot. For those of us including you who know the evidence well, it should mean that the struggle for the gun did not happen the way GZ said it did, which means he’s lying about something and that something needs to be found out. I’m not on the prosecution team and I don’t have to worry about ethics of exposing or suppressing evidence. Remember, we’ve been dubbed the truth squad here. Isn’t the truth more important and healthier than flat out ignoring evidence just because you’ve made up your mind to demonize someone even if he is a pathological liar and killer? OK sure, GZ could have contaminated evidence intentionally or not, but that’s purely a hypothetical excercise until the physical evidence is fully in.

            • Correction: “For those of us including you who know the evidence well, it COULD mean that the struggle for the gun did not happen the way GZ said it did, which means he’s lying about something and that something needs to be found out.”

            • Very little happened the way GZ said it did. I can understand the concern about having the idea that TM’s DNA may be on the gun and holster floating around, but I also think it is a valid point of inquiry. If you can come up with evidence that it is, I am sure the defense will use that same argument at the trial. So the prosecution should be prepared to counter the argument.

              Do you know from what part of the holster, the sample was taken?

              GZ has kind of a reliable pattern in constructing his lies. He exchanges the actions he and TM were taking and he supplies strange details and explanations for his supposed actions. I think some of the odd details he supplies, are to counter possible witness statements.

              One of those odd details, is that he claims that after TM “confronts” him with the ” do you have a problem?”, he volunteers the information, that at the same time he supposedly says, I don’t have a problem, he reaches into his right pocket to get his phone, to call 911. Now, I think that is preposterous. If you are confronted like that, you do not stand there and say I am cool, now let me get my phone and call 911.
              That did not happen. So why does that claim turn up, even in is very first statement?
              The only reason I can think of, is that he was providing an explanation in case a witness saw him taking something out of his right pocket.

              I also think the “he covered my nose and mouth with his hands” may be one of his exchanging roles with Trayvon.
              According to Tracy Martin, Trayvon had spittle around his mouth, and a tear in the corner of his eyes, in the photo of Trayvon, that was shown to him for identification.
              I think it is possible GZ, had transferable TM DNA on his hands, that did not come from blood.
              I don’t know the first thing about guns and holsters. What I understand from the evidence, GZ was wearing a holster inside the waist band. I find it hard to believe, that he put the holster on, after the shooting. I think whatever dna material was deposited on the holster after the shooting, must have been transferred either by the gun or by GZ’s hand.

            • @Amsterdam. This is one of those weird pieces of evidence that could be spun so many different ways, it’ll anybody’s make anybody’s head spin. Even if I’m right, I don’t think it can even be presented in court by EITHER side, because it is not “validated” data, and whatever argument you want to make about it, the other side will quickly just swat it down. Exactly why I would NOT post my suspicions anywhere elsewhere. We have few if any pro-GZ lurkers here (I think).

              There is no information on where the sample was taken from the holster so I have to think it’s a general swipe. On the gun they do different swipes of different places where people are likely to hold it while loading or firing. I can’t say with confidence right now that there’s TM’s DNA anywhere but the holster so I’d like to just concentrate on that for now. Yes, what you say about GZ being the vector for transferring the DNA is possible as many things are possible. If my suspicion is true, then the ONLY conclusion that I can make about it, is that the holster was out of his waistband at some point. The rest is conjecture. I don’t think we should be afraid either to explore the possibility that TM touched the holster in a struggle, without it meaning that GZ was justified. In the “safety” of this living room, I feel somewhat free pose the scenario that GZ pulled out the gun in its holster from his pocket. If GZ was holding it by the grip, then TM’s hand could have briefly held it on the holster. If anybody believes that TM made those bloodcurdling screams, it would have to be from the sight of the gun. From all accounts, the two were in close contact (wrestling) with each other for at least 40 seconds (per the 911 call). So it’s plausible that there was a more desperate struggle for the gun than what he has described. So why lie about it? Because the holster was not in his waistband and he had freedom of movement and possibly both hands free (one to pull the holster off the gun and the other to shoot). Meaning he was not pinned down and he could have retreated. Not self-defense.

            • @WSI –

              Testy, testy…

              Not a lot of time… And still intend to look at the DNA *data* when I get a chance. That’d be a lot of work for me and… it’s on my list. Looks like tc already took a look, too.

              “Remember, we’ve been dubbed the truth squad here. Isn’t the truth more important and healthier than flat out ignoring evidence just because you’ve made up your mind to demonize someone even if he is a pathological liar and killer?”

              Absolutely truth is more important! Zimmerman’s account is that he moved Trayvon Martin’s hands and then Zimmerman touched his own gun and holster. (I actually don’t believe Zimmerman moved the hands of Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman was issuing a headf*ck to make the police look bad — but IDK and there’s no proof of it.)

              “OK sure, GZ could have contaminated evidence intentionally or not, but that’s purely a hypothetical excercise until the physical evidence is fully in.”

              GZ said he tainted the body as part of his own statements. There’s nothing hypothetical about this at all — unless you also don’t believe Zimmerman and you consider this disbelief some sort of attempt to “demonize” Zimmerman.

              This *is* science — just not biology. You have to discard results sometimes — tainted stuff is a good candidate.

            • @wsi

              I leave the discussion whether it is Trayvon’s DNA to you and Tchoupi for now. But I decided to study up on the holster instead.

              I watched a couple of videos about holsters in general and Z holster in particular.
              My first conclusion is that GZ was either carrying the gun in the holster, or he had the gun in his hand. Carrying the gun in a holster not attached to his waistband, doesn’t make sense, because it would have hindered his access to the gun.

              He could have worn the gun either on the inside of his waistband or on the outside. If he worn it on the outside on his right hip, the grip would’ve faced forward for a lefthanded cross draw. One of the supposed excerpts from the Osterman book, describes GZ turning his gun in a way that would be consistent with him grabbing the gun with his right hand while wearing the holster for a lefthanded draw.
              Osterman of course, knows exactly how GZ handles his gun on the shooting range, so he may have added his own interpretation.

              GZ’s shirt was tucked in neatly as we know. If he had worn the holster inside the waistband, the gun and the top part of this particular holster would have been exposed, if the jacket was pulled to the side. I watched the re-enactment video again, and GZ said he was looking for his phone in his right pants pocket. Pretty close to where his gun would’ve been, and at least he would have pushed aside his jacket, and shown his gun to Trayvon.

              Another thing I’ve learned from watching the videos, when reholstering the gun, especially with some of the cheaper holsters, you need to keep the holster in place, to make sure the gun is returned safely to the holster. So even with an inside the waistband holster, you would touch the holster with your thumb or fingers.

              So, if GZ worn the holster inside the waistband, it is possible that Trayvon touched it, but I don’t think it is very likely.
              If GZ worn it outside the waistband, it is more likely that Trayvon touched the holster during the struggle.

              The most likely scenario for me is still that GZ transferred the DNA to the holster when he reholstered his gun. He was on top of Trayvon, after he shot him. Selma describes him as having his hand on his back or neck. I think GZ wanted to be sure Trayvon was dead. He may have checked with his hand if Trayvon was still breathing and when he was sure he was dead, got up and holstered his gun, keeping the holster in place with his thumb or fingers, and in that process transferred some saliva from Trayvon to the holster.

            • @Amsterdam, all of what you mentioned is plausible to explain how TM’s DNA might have gotten on the holster if in fact it is determined to be there.

              Just a couple of comments to your comments:
              “Carrying the gun in a holster not attached to his waistband, doesn’t make sense, because it would have hindered his access to the gun.”
              True if this were a normal situation, but we question whether he had the gun on him when he got in the truck to “go shopping” and when he left the truck to go running after TM. He could have grabbed it quickly from the truck and shoved it into his pocket rather than his waistband.

              “He could have worn the gun either on the inside of his waistband or on the outside. If he worn it on the outside on his right hip, the grip would’ve faced forward for a lefthanded cross draw.”
              I believe that in a normal situation, he wouldn’t be carrying it outside of his pants. That jacket’s not that long and he wouldn’t risk people seeing the gun by wearing it on the outside, he’s not a cop. As with the scenario described above, I guess he could have quickly grabbed the gun and put it on the outside “just in case” in this case. BTW, I think it was in the statement to police(or FDLE?) and not the book that MO says GZ “rotated the gun” before shooting, suggesting the placement of the gun with butt facing forward for a left-handed crossdraw.

              He could have “holstered his gun, keeping the holster in place with his thumb or fingers, and in that process transferred some saliva from Trayvon to the holster.”
              This is also possible. Or he had to remove the holster momentarily to put the gun in and then shoved it down his pants (the guy was a bit more portly back then, maybe he needed to do that as it was hard to wedge it in there around a love handle!)

              Great, now we’ve covered all the possibilities and are back at square one. EXCEPT, I’m still left with the question of why GZ would NOT say that TM had touched it even briefly as that would seem to help his case, but he makes such a point to say that TM’s hand just “slid” down his shirt “reaching” for the gun. Now for MO to say that TM did grab the gun, is that a stupid “divide and conquer” strategy so they’d cover his bases both ways?

            • “I watched the re-enactment video again, and GZ said he was looking for his phone in his right pants pocket. Pretty close to where his gun would’ve been, and at least he would have pushed aside his jacket, and shown his gun to Trayvon.”
              Showing gun to TM, accidentally? Or was it an animalistic display of dominance? *Sigh*, and I thought the human race had evolved…..

          • @CSFC, I have to apologize for my rant/reply to you. I think I (once again) misunderstood some of your comments, and was feeling a bit hormonal. Please don’t quit your day job. I don’t expect you to spend time on the data, I had just thought you’d be interested. But it is a lot to digest, and I think this is my burden now to present what I see in the data more clearly than by just listing page numbers in the documents for you to wade through. Let me adjourn the court for now, retreat and formulate a proper argument on this issue.

            • @WSI –

              No apology necessary (but appreciated). I, too did not wish to offend.

              (BTW, love your challenging inputs and what we all learn from it… I’m just running short of time these days and can’t devote.)

              There are many, many people here that can be engaged on your questions.

            • @CSFC, glad we’re square. Totally understand on the time issue. I’m afraid I’ve been way too obsessed on this case, and need to devote more time to my real life. So I feel bad about bringing up all of this DNA stuff and not having the time to properly make up a document to summarize my findings. When and if I do get it together, would love your input then.

      • Remember, W18 was a world class athlete who represented the US in international competitions. She’s traveled, seen things, had experiences. She also competes in a sport that requires competitors to develop a high degree of mental toughness in order to work through considerable physical pain. I think this background helps explain why she can essentially fall apart emotionally yet keep her wits about her at the same time. Even as she’s breaking into tears and wails, she gives the most accurate and careful descriptions. “Someone’s coming with a flashlight. I don’t know if that’s a policeman.” That’s not being confused. That’s Joe Friday class ‘the facts and nothing but the facts’.

        We also need to remember that when W18 felt Chris Serino was blowing her off, she was sure enough of the value of her own testimony to contact a lawyer, who in turn hired a private investigator to take a detailed statement from her. That’s not a nervous Nelly. That’s someone with some confidence and some courage.

        As far as the window goes, I’m not sure she was in the same room the whole time. She may have been, in which case the voices may have been loud enough to hear through the glass. But she may have moved from one room with an open window or screen door, to another where the window was closed. Or she may have been offering to open the screen and actually stick the phone outside the window. (??)

        I agree that “Someone taking a flashlight” should not be read literally as ‘Someone taking possession of a flashlight from someone else, or one that had been on the ground,’ but as ‘someone is pointing a flashlight.’

        Assuming the State calls her as a witness, I would not be surprised if she clears up these ambiguities on her own initiative, without being asked specifically, just because she seems dedicated to being a good witness.

        • Wow. Quite a good discussion here. I’m still working at this. I think her back bedroom window may have been open earlier. Seems she closed it during the hard rain when Trayvon would have been dashing under the mailbox cover. Think I read that. That earlier open window is probably not significant.

          @QETNO: You’ve given us a good working list. I wonder where Mary’s pacing fits in. Did GZ pace before meeting JonW13 or only afterwards when Mary says she was upstairs? Might not be something W18 speaks to.

          • I’m not sure about the pacing (if it is pre and/or post JonW13). JayneW18 doesn’t speak to that action in the call or to Serino. Do we know/have an indication that Selma and Jon were out at the same time, or did Selma go back in before Jon came around the corner? W18 doesn’t mention Mary or Selma, but she may not have seen them. I think she sees JonW13 because he comes around the corner into the lighted area. I’m under the impression the pacing was right before Jon, and probably after Jon came out.

          • He was pacing before Jon got there. W18 tells the dispatcher when Zimmerman gets up, one second after W3 sees Smith’s car near the clubhouse. W18 drew a map with an arrow pointing to the doggie waist can, so I get the impression that GZ walked over there.

            • Amsterdam said “W18 drew a map with an arrow pointing to the doggie waist can, so I get the impression that GZ walked over there.”
              For confirmation, I just listened to JonW13’s interview with FDLE again. http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/
              Around 7:30 forward, he says that GZ was on the sidewalk about 6-8 feet from the “cross” of the sidewalk coming towards him. Jon also says GZ was on the phone, but asked Jon if he was bleeding and knelt down on the sidewalk. At that point, he could see the bloody head (omits saying that he took a picture), and then he shines a flashlight on the body (omits again that walked down to take a picture of the body). So they were actually quite close to W18 who lives in the row of townhomes north of the T.

            • Who was he talking to? The logs show he made a second call, but that was after 19:20. Smith had him in custody at that time. He didn’t call Shelly, and we don’t have a 911 call from him.

            • @Amsterdam, wait, what? Who’s phone logs? I didn’t think logs of GZ or JonW13 calls have been released.

            • WSI
              I meant the 911/nen logs. They show that Zimmerman made a second call to the nen around 7:20:20. Jon got there earlier, I am just very curious who he was talking to.

            • @Amsterdam, wait, you said “911/nen logs. They show that Zimmerman made a second call to the nen around 7:20:20”
              Is this the entry you’re talking about? From one of the latest discovery docs, the top of the log says Event detail #20120571656, and the caller is George Zimmerman. Date/Time: 2/26/2012 19:20:21; TERM= W/TM06; radio ID = P1839; Remarks = EVD- DUPE

              Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think that wouldn’t necessarily be a second call to NEN. That page is an event log, so things that get tagged with the event like police radio calls get listed in there. I don’t know what EVD-DUPE means, but the radio ID P1839 is the same as the one a couple of lines above, which is the officer (Smith I think) saying he was en route.

              Of course, ever since we saw him on his phone in the bloody head photo Jon took,.the million dollar question has always been who GZ was talking to Not been answered yet (that I’m aware of).

            • Correction: “I didn’t think that would necessarily be a second call to NEN.” (Wish I could blame that on English technically not being not my first language.)

            • @wsi,

              I think you are right. I was just speculating about the phonecall GZ was making. We have no evidence that he was talking to 911. I am just very curious as probably everybody else is, who you would call a minute after you’ve killed someone.

            • Given W18 and JonW13’s statements that GZ was already walking and up closer to the T when he encountered JonW13, then I wonder how in the world he’s going to explain in his testimony in the re-enactment that he was still on TM’s body asking a neighbor to help him restrain the kid.

            • @Amsterdam, glad we’re here to double-check each other to clarify things together. 🙂 We’re all still waiting for Aussie to clarify what she ever meant about the tactical flashlight being determined as NOT belonging to GZ. She mentioned that and then went silent again, despite qetno, CSFE and me asking her to point us to where she found that. All I can conclude about that was that she was mistaken, but I don’t like being put in limbo (yeah, look who’s talking, me who brings up “wild” claims about DNA and stuff no one else can verify…..)

          • Since this is a slow time, anyone want to make a guess about dispatcher MYDICUS on page 4 of the 911 logs?
            The name of this dispatcher should’ve shown in the creation remark of the detailsheet. It is blacked out in that part of the event report, and it looks like it has been altered in the header.

        • @whonoze –

          “Even as she’s breaking into tears and wails, she gives the most accurate and careful descriptions. “Someone’s coming with a flashlight. I don’t know if that’s a policeman.” That’s not being confused. That’s Joe Friday class ‘the facts and nothing but the facts’”

          Yes, exactly! That’s also the point I want people to understand. She ain’t confused, she’s trying her best to be accurate.

  143. Here’s an article and uninteresting video excerpt of O’Mara talking at the gun conference this weekend. Did not discuss the GZ case, but more about what the SYG means. He says that “most people” would just retreat if they have an opportunity to do so, and “most people” don’t just stand their ground to apply deadly force unless they felt great bodily harm. Well MOM, that’s “most people”, and then there’s your client……..
    http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/9/29/mark_o_mara_examines.html

    • I wish there was a whistleblower inside the SPD who could tell us what the office politics are in general, and what happened in the GZ case in particular.

      Wasn’t it someone named Barns or Barnes who asked Serino for TM’s parents’ contact info? He seems like someone a good investigative reporter might get an opening from if they played it right.

      Serino himself is the one who knows what truly went down during the investigation, but I don’t think he’s ever going to talk to the press. But you never know. If he wrote a book, I’d buy it.

      I wonder if this public meeting regarding a new top cop is the work of the Justice department’s community Relations Service efforts, or it the initiative was taken by mayor Tripplett or city council, or possibly the city manager Bonaparte… in any case, it’s a wise move even if it turns out to be just window dressing in the end.

      Bonaparte strikes me a straight up progressive guy. The mayor cares about the reputation of his fair city more than he cares about actual justice, IMO and the city council members run the gamut of good ol’ boys to a couple of hard nosed community organizer types who try to advocate for the poor and black townfolks.

      We may never get an insider’s view into the city of Sanford since the usual outlets seem to be non-existant. It’s not like there is an alternate news weekly published there…. but there is one in Orlando. Here is a link to an old but interesting story that speaks about the history of the Sanford area’s race relations.

      http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169

      Note that in the article above Mayor Tripplet is quoted as saying he will leave no stone unturned in an investigation into the SPD. Of course, there was no investigation and he was just paying lip service to the crowd at a NAACP sponsored event at the time.

      • I will be surprised if Serino doesn’t produce a book. They’ve busted him down to patrolman. He is, I would also guess, the one person who knows all the skeletons in all the closets. Some of them are probably his, but when all is said and done that will just make for a better book. But now is not the time for him to say or write anything. I’m sure that for as many years as he was on the force, he actually cares about LE, at least in terms of a big case like this, and doesn’t want to mess up the judicial process by shooting off his mouth. Once the case is settled, I’d guess he’ll officially retire and at that point he’ll have multiple offers from major publishers, offering him both significant advances and top-flight ‘as told to’ co-authors, and his book will wind up an NYT best seller allowing him a comfortable retirement (probably NOT in Florida, though…).

        • That’s a optimistic thought and I’d love to share it. Like I said, I’d buy the book if he wrote one. But like you said, who knows what went on in the past with his career and all the cases he worked. Skeletons… I mark Serino as someone who knows when to keep his mouth shut, too. He might just stay on as a patrolman until retirement and keep his opinions and stories to himself. So many things are possible. He may have a very poor opinion of GZ (we know he found him to not be credible) but have been on good terms and somewhat sympathetic to former chief Bill Lee, we just dont know.

          I do think that someday he or Singleton might speak to an investigative reporter, however if they used the right approach. That alone would be enough, and since either one or the other could have plausible deniability if the whistleblower remained anonymous, they would have sufficient cover to speak freely. Let’s hope this comes to pass.

          • @willisNewton –

            I’m an optimist also, so I’d rather think Serino is willingly getting closer to the community by agreeing to patrolling instead of detecting. Of course *this* is wishful thinking since there’s nothing evident that could indicate Serino’s “demotion” was based on his own input. I just think that certain things Serino did led us to the exposure of Zimmerman’s lies and Serino deserves credit for that aspect of the exposure of Zimmerman’s criminal behavior.

  145. Whonoze,

    I’m really amazed about the rendering of the video.

    We can really see that GZ was not at the front of the clubhouse as he started his nen call. Instead, we see that car taking off from the mailboxes awing after having stopped there for 10sec.
    This was the first form of aggression.
    I can imagine TM on the phone with DeeDee seeing that total stranger in his big truck who stops by him and picks up his cell phone and start calling while watching him. He must have been wondering what that guy was doing until seeing him driving away in his truck. TM must have been watching GZ driving away. He may even have felt some relief until noticing that the car was making a u-turn.
    GZ was connecting with dispatcher Sean while driving east on TTL. This explains that during the initial 40sec, he is talking in general terms about the suspicious kid. We’ve discussed a long while ago about how GZ sounded like he was not seeing TM. That’s because GZ was driving away. But then he made a uturn to face TM at the mailboxes.
    I agree with Willis about GZ parking near the west curve closer to TM. To one significant exception, the light sequence is very similar to that of any other car on TTL going toward the north gate. The exception is: there is no evidence the car ever made it by the mailboxes and by the north gate junction. The EPH vid shows one light event as Amsterdam indicated. But, that light event looks a lot like a reflection on the pavement from a light source that is off frame. Indeed, the light spot lacks brightness and is lower toward the ground. In any cases, because GZ came back to face TM, he’s now a stalker.
    TM now realizes that something is seriously wrong with this guy. As he has to make a decision about what to do next, he gauges him from the distance. This is when GZ tells Sean “now, he’s staring at me” as he doesn’t realizes that the kid now feels unsafe.
    Then, TM tells DeeDee that he has to resume walking home. This is about when TM’s call is interrupted. DeeDee calls back as TM walks past GZ’s truck . GZ feels unsafe too. He tells Sean “he’s coming to check me out”.
    Many think that GZ made another u turn to face TM walking away. although I haven’t much against, I don’t believe it happened. There are noise that can interpreted as GZ maneuvering. However, the EP video shows no car moving. I tend to believe that whatever maneuver GZ made, he must have stayed in the blind spot at the top-right corner of the EP video. Thus, GZ could have backed up. I believe he did. If he did, then he stepped up his aggression. He is not scared of TM anymore. This is when he says “these assholes always get away”.
    TM tells DeeDee that the guy is following him from the back. He tells her that he will start running. He does. GZ is caught by surprise. He tells Sean “Shit! He’s running”. That expletive alone reveals GZ’s intent. He wants the kid arrested. So, he exits his truck and chases him on foot. He must prevent that goon from escaping.
    TM escapes anyhow. GZ is now frustrated with the situation. He is ls frustrated with dispatcher Sean who can’t even understand anything. He may be frustrated with him also because he told him to to chase that kid. Suddenly, GZ gets exited again. This time, he’s not going to respond to Sean’s request. He asks Police to call him when they arrive because he is not going to wait at the mailboxes. He is the one in charge.
    Follows 90 long seconds with nothing to hear and nothing to see.
    Witness 11 is the 1st to break the silence. Thanks to her call, we know that Trayvon Martin was shot dead by his stalker on Feb 26th, 2012 at 19:16 and 56 seconds.
    —-
    This video is a great summary of months of work. This sincerely moves me.
    I believe we can complete it with explanations and information from other sources but the 911 calls. Hopefully, one day, police will give considerations to the clubhouse videos.

    • I was moved when I saw this rendering of the videos. All the pieces of the puzzle fell into place. It told me pretty much the same story as the one you are telling above. The arrival of the emergency vehicles and w18’s narration, cemented it for me. This is very close to the actual time.
      These videos are, I believe, the most compelling evidence that Zimmerman stalked Trayvon long before the final confrontation.

      I would really like a video that can tell the story. The images that you provided with the camera angles, and Willisnewton’s snowmama’s overlay helped may visualize the events. The light correlation table helped me to recogize the light patterns, and Jay’s witness statements spreadsheet are fabulous to find when the witnesses made their observations. So we have a wealth of ordered information available.

      Maybe we can put a playbook together. Once we’ve decided what we would like in the video, we can divide the work needed to prepare the items that we want to include in the video. If whonoze is willing to do the editing, it will only be the editing part that still needs to be done. That is still a lot of work, but more manageable.

      I am willing to the editing, but it won’t look as good.

      • Indeed, I think this video is great in that it helps to corroborate/explain DeeDee’s statements as well. The pro-GZ people have accused her of lying or making things up, but there are things here that she couldn’t have made up. I think this second version of the video shows that it was still drizzling (see poolside video) when TM left the mailboxes. Without seeing this video, people would ask why would TM tell DeeDee that he was putting his hoodie up? Was it to hide from GZ, or she wanted to make a point about the hoodie because of the profiling implications? No, she said it was because of the rain and that makes sense. I think he told her that he was standing at the mail “shed” thing waiting for the rain to let up, but when he saw GZ, he decides to move on. Normally, he may not comment on something like that, but it makes sense for him to tell her “It’s still dripping a little bit, but I’m just gonna put my hoodie up and start walking again, cuz this creepy guy is looking at me” The video shows that just minutes before, it was raining harder, but was still dripping a little bit when he left. Sorry GZ people, this girl couldn’t have made this up unless she’s psychic!

        • It’s fun to watch them (GZ fans) chase their tails in circles and just going crazy over the phone/headphones/headset, the phone logs, and DeeDee.

          • Deedee is a big inconvenience to their narrative. I think it is funny when they tell each other how OM is going to tear her down on the witness stand. Can you imagine GZ, sitting there looking all vulnerable and victimized, while his representative is bullying a 16 year old girl?

        • I have always taken the position that rain is not an issue. Hoodies go up and hoodies go down. Reasons are not required for up/down movement of clothing.

          The child was unarmed and breaking no laws is the issue.

          To be more plain about what I’m saying… Zimmerman needs to account for why he thought this child was a criminal to be sought after and killed. Trayvon Martin’s appearance and clothing positions were unremarkable to the store clerk.

          • The prosecution should show the footage of the three guys, that came into the store right after Trayvon left the store. All three had their heads covered. Right before you see Trayvon walking by the store to head home, one of the guys, who was wearing a hoodie and a cap, looked out of the window, and removed his hoodie and put his cap back on. I think it was raining hard when Trayvon entered the store, and the rain stopped or subsided, when he started walking again.

            I agree that the entire hoodie argument is rediculous, but I think it describes that evening and the behaviour should look familiar and normal to any jury member.

        • When you look at the phonerecords, you can see they were on the phone all day long. I don’t think the phonecalls were about having a conversation, but more a means for intimacy. In that context, exchanging every little detail about what you are doing, makes sense.
          She also may have heard him putting on his hoodie.

          But you are right, these videos again corroborate Deedee. So far I haven’t seen any evidence that is contrary to Deedee’s statements.

          I think having these little details, fit hard evidence, are important, not to explain the hoodie, but because they show Deedee to be a very reliable witness.

      • I would help editing too.
        I think narrating the explanation is the way to go. Adding popup inserts, like maps, snapshots, must be for support information.
        Popup text, I’m afraid would make it too hard to follow. It must be limited and short if possible.
        I can provide a draft of the text for narration if you guys think that’s the way to go.

        • Thanks for the offers of help. I’m struggling with everyday life at the moment, and making the video into what it should be for public display seems pretty daunting. I can do the turn-the-crank work, but the parts that require actual thinking and writing are more daunting.

          There should be explanations of what the images are (security cam vids from the clubhouse) what areas each camera covers, and the spatial relationship between the four views. An explanation of the scale, angle of view, resulting lack of detail, and thus how things appear to the cameras and sometimes vaguely resemble things they aren’t.

          I do think there should be text popups identifying some of the ‘light events’. For example in the EPH footage it seems you don’t actually see the vehicles, but rather the pattern their headlights cast down on the street.

          I also think there should be an animation of the deduced path of GZ’s truck, in sync with the videos. Only in upper corner of the EPH screen really has any useful info, so the animation could go in the lower left. If anyone knows how to do an animation, that would be a lot of help. (I did my earlier animation in Final Cut, by using the map as a background, making little graphics for GZ and TM, putting each in different layers, and using keyframes for position to move them around). I don’t think TM needs to be animated for this, just that weird back and forth path of the vehicle…

          Any graphics anyone might make should be high resolution. The video is full 1080P (1920×1080). Again, inserts wouldn’t necessarily cover the whole screen, but they probably should be like 960×720 for 4:3 or 1280×720 for 16:9 at least.

          • This is excellent, and I appreciate the effort. I too am busy and stretched, so I understand your pain.
            However, we have to keep in mind that there is no rush. We have done a very good job analyzing evidences and have the opportunity to tell a factual story based on your timed video. We must not waste that opportunity.

            I’ll submit to all a draft of the narration and put images and comments as reference to what I think should appear on the screen. Then, I will invite everybody to comment, modify and add/remove pieces so we have a good story line. We’ll then have to time it and detail the inserts, animated and fixed, that have to popup.

            I recommend not to ask me to be the narrator. My French accent would make it terrible.
            I’m also not skilled at creating animations either. I will bring figures and charts though.

            • I couldn’t do the narration either. Your french accent or my dutch accent would be great fodder for the Zimmerman crowd.
              I agree no rush to get it done.

          • I know what you mean Whonoze. I’ve been spending way to much time on this already. A project like this is pretty daunting. I could not do it by myself, but I would enjoy working on it together.

  146. I’m no animator but I have done some crude work using photoshop and iMovie to make animations when I had to. I’ll give it a try but don’t expect fast turnaround. I agree that an “idiot proof” video would be great to crowd-source and produce, with occasional charts and graphs, etc inserted.

    Keep in mind also that a website is just as accesible to most of our likely audience, and what amounts to a 5000+ word written article interspersed with video clips might be more digestible than a ten or twenty minute lecture, or a full length clubhouse video which most people liken to watching a very slow Lava Lamp. YouTube is a great way to PROMOTE such a detailed website however and you could always upload the video excerpts as a way to promote the more fully sourced website.

    Plus, the website could be updated and built piecemeal and crowd-sourced, and each contributor could work at their own pace. If ever there is a trial date announced, that’s the only deadline I see that counts – presenting this material in time for the prosecution to decide if it’s worth using in court.

    Also something like an invitation-only yahoo group might be one way to start a discussion about this video project/ narration and still keep this blog doing what it does best – being a clearing house for those who care to continue sifting evidence and such. A YouTube video or website should present as a unified front a consensus opinion of several named – or at least “web-named” contributors, while this site should remain a place for wach to voice their own personal opinion. What do you good folks think?

    • Maybe we can start by asking NLME to open a thread dedicated to the clubhouse videos. I do appreciate the input from people on this blog, who are interested in the videos, but are not into the detailed analysis.
      SJ documentation of the witness statements, and the video with the angles from the clubhouse were very helpfull.

      I think video is the way to go. We can split them up to make them more accessibel. Creating a website, that goes beyond something like wordpress, is another big project. Let’s first see what we come up with and take it from there.

  147. WSI,

    concerning the possibility of TM’s DNA on the holster, I have to say that indeed if you include all alleles that were excluded because their signals were in the grey zone between noise and signal, then the matching with TM increases significantly. Indeed, the # of alleles specific to TM found in the minority sample goes from 6/18 to 10/18. You understand that I’m excluding the 4 alleles shared between TM & GZ since the presence of GZ’s DNA is confirmed in the sample as major. I’m also counting one allele at the homozygotic loci. So, there are a total of 18 alleles specific to TM from the sampled loci.

    That said, I really don’t have the expertise for rejecting FDLE’s definition of the grey zone.
    On the one hand, based the reported control samples, I can say that the deep noise level is below 15, the shallow noise level (=worst observed peaks) is below 40. So, FDLE’s definition of the grey zone as being the area between 50 and 100 looks excessively cautious. Based on the noise observed from the control experiment, I would have been happy with a grey zone between 40 & 70.
    On the other hand, the few repeated measurements reveal a significant uncertainty in the amplitude of the low peaks that is not related to noise. Peaks with an amplitude of ~70, can show up or not. I know you pointed out the fact that the repeats were performed using different kits as a reason for the difference. I’m not sure that what you explained was really reassuring me. Actually, I would say that it scared me. It reminded me of my first car in the US. Once I was stuck in a huge traffic jam for 5 hours during which I moved about 10 miles. Because of the slow speed, the odometer could only integrate 1 mile. The car dealer told me that was because of the model. So, FDLE may in the end be right in their decision to exclude the peaks below 100.

    Finally, in an effort to have a better grab on what makes a good or a bad DNA signal from a minor contributor, I compared the holster with DMS19 stain N, the only instance of TM’s DNA on GZ’s clothe found by FDLE.
    The signal is better, indeed. Firstly, there is no multiple minor contributors. Then, excluding the peaks in the grey zone per FDLE’s criteria, the allelic match is 12/18. Finally, when adding the grey zone peaks, the allelic match jumps to 16/18.

    I would need to understand what it means if TM’s DNA is shown on the holster and if he touched it, why his DNA contribution is so low?
    To the first question, the answer could be that the holster would have to he have been out of GZ’s pant.

    • @Tchoupi, thanks for the feedback. You are right to not count the shared alleles by TM and GZ since we cannot visually determine if TM contributed to those large peaks. If the grey zone really is just between the limit of detection (LOD = noise + 3 std dev) and limit of quantitation (LOQ= noise + 3 std. dev.), then the 50-100 grey zone should be about right with this type of sample and background noise. But that also means that if the noise floor is quite flat and you see a peak equivalent to noise + 2 std dev, it could be real, but you start to lose confidence….So you see now that I’m not even trying to pick out peaks at 1 or 2 std dev above noise. I do believe those peaks in the grey zone (flagged by FDLE) above LOD are real.
      “It reminded me of my first car in the US. Once I was stuck in a huge traffic jam for 5 hours during which I moved about 10 miles. Because of the slow speed, the odometer could only integrate 1 mile. The car dealer told me that was because of the model.” I love it, you’re the only one I know who would be noticing the discordance between the odometer and your actual distance. I would have been too frustrated with the traffic to notice. Your mind analytical mind never stops spinning!
      Regarding why you can see a peak of 70 in one measurement and not in another for samples that hover just above the limit of detection. That term “limit of detection” implies that if the test is supposed to detect 50 all the time, then you should be able to detect 50 every time you run a sample that has at least 50 in it right? Well, the machine would be able to accurately detect the final signal of 50 within milli-units of variability, but a person has to physically put the DNA sample into the machine in the first place and then that signal gets amplified. Any variability introduced at the beginning of the process also gets amplified right? So if in one reaction of Sample A, the input DNA is 1 ng and in the 2nd reaction of Sample A the input DNA is 0.99 ng, that’s a 1% difference which is not bad when you’re talking about a person physically putting a solution containing the extracted DNA (even with a calibrated pipet) into the reaction plate. You can never get 100% accuracy. But then that 1% difference in input DNA then gets amplified to where run #1 gives 70 RLU and run# 2 gives 35 RLU for that allele. Doesn’t mean there’s no DNA in run #2, it just fell below the limit of detection.
      Yes, it is good you’ve compared the holster results with other data. I have not looked at the blood stain data carefully, but I will say examination of DNA blood stains is different than with dry surface DNA. With blood stains, obviously, they take a sample because they could see the stain (or detect it with luminol). That will always give you much more DNA than with a surface stain, meaning that you will always get a DNA profile for the major contributor. But what about a minor contributor? Depends absolutely on the ratio of the major and minor contributors. Imagine Scenario 1: a killer has a little cut on his hand and leaves one drop of blood on the door as he leaves. Scenario 2: a killer has a little cut on his hand with 1 drop of blood and then he dips his hand in his victim’s pool of blood. He leaves a hand print of blood on the door as he leaves. They’ll always be able to identify the killer’s profile in scenario 1. While the absolute amount of his own blood that the killer leaves on the door is the same in both scenarios (and certainly even much more than what would be found from touch DNA on a dry surface), because it gets diluted out with the victim’s blood, the likelihood of a positive identification in scenario 2 goes down significantly.
      “I would need to understand what it means if TM’s DNA is shown on the holster and if he touched it, why his DNA contribution is so low? To the first question, the answer could be that the holster would have to he have been out of GZ’s pant.”
      To the first question, I’ve said also that it could mean the holster was out of his pants and TM touched/grabbed it. To be open-minded, we should also consider Jo’s and CSFC’s thoughts that GZ transferred the DNA. At some point, I will have to pull some forensic papers to see what types of raw signals are expected with such types of DNA samples. It depends on amount of contact (surface area), time of contact, pressure (touching versus grabbing). To me, it’s not unexpected that such low amounts are found on the holster from someone holding it just momentarily, whether by primary or secondary transfer. DNA will degrade over time, which is why they’re not detecting everyone in the world that might have held that holster at one point in time, such as Shellie, Osterman, the guy who sold him the holster, the manufacturer, etc. DNA evidence is usually used to include or exclude someone of being at a crime scene and whether they held the murder weapon, but it’s more rare and complicated to try to use it to figure out the sequence of events. I guess only the total evidence package will determine that.

      • Actually the whole method upsets me because in principle there is a simple solution to determining if a signal is real or not.
        The whole point of defining two limits, LOD & LOW, is to make people understand that there is a probability that observed signals may be noise and observed noise may be signal, and that those chances may be significant when you consider looking for a signal in between those two limits.
        That said, it doesn’t mean that you can just dump everything you got in the grey zone delimited by LOD & LOQ. I guess this is why FDLE had to log the small peaks using a *. But, then nothing more is done to be more deterministic.
        In principle, repeating the measurement again and again will reduce the odds of being wrong. For example, if LOQ=LOD+3s, running the test 3x is equivalent to bringing the LOQ down to LOD+1.2s, and thus, you narrowed down the grey zone by more than half. Therefore, In the bio-evidence, peaks observed at 70 and up can be determined.
        Again, my expertise in bio science stops where the technicality begins. In this case, I have to realize that it may not be possible to repeat multiple times the same measurement.

        —

        The odometer story has very little to do with anyone’s analytical mind. When I realized that it will be a long commute back home (it was winter, dark, cold and many cars were running out of gas), I had to get my mind onto something. So, I decided to evaluate the distance traveled using the odometer (I had no GPS at that time). It ended up being depressing because the stupid odometer would not budge. I came to believing that it was dead. That’s why I went to the car dealer to fix that. The guy came back to me and while he was looking at me as if I was crazy he told me that the odometer was perfectly fine. I guess it was because I would not stop arguing that he decided to get rid of me by stating that the model of odometer I have is the reason for what happened. After all he was right: Who would complain about an odometer that under-evaluate distances?

        • @tchoupi,
          You said “it doesn’t mean that you can just dump everything you got in the grey zone delimited by LOD & LOQ. I guess this is why FDLE had to log the small peaks using a *. But, then nothing more is done to be more deterministic.” Exactly, and they also said there was nothing in those security videos, didn’t they?? Remember it took a lot to get the FDLE involved to get most of this done in March (a month later) and then a few samples like the flashlight and skittles didn’t get done until July (ARGGHH!!!)

          You are right, if this were a lab experiment, you could run umpteen numbers of repeats to get greater confidence in whether a peak is real. Of course, the data is what it is from the one test that they did (using two kits to complete a profile). So now who is going to ask for more to be done? The prosecution might have thought, “eh, no DNA, great, why go fishing for more?” In what I call the straight-forward “simple-minded” public view that TM DNA on gun/holster means self-defense for GZ, it would seem best to leave it at that in the interest of trying to get a conviction.

          Now, if the defense had their own forensic analyst review the data, for sure, they’d pick up on this, but whether they will try to pursue a more definitive answer depends on whether they think it will help their case. I don’t think so because it will contradict GZ’s own statements, especially about the holster being out of his pants.

          From the point of view of the lab analyst who ran the test and wrote up the report, they are the “neutral” party here. They only run what tests they’re told to do, or whatever tests needed to get the data that fall within the guidelines. For example, when Martin’s DNA was offscale, they diluted it, and then ran it again, specifically stating that they reported the results from the 2nd run when all of the alleles were detected within range.

          Now for the low DNA samples, there are limited amounts of samples, so a tech (or Lab director) would not arbitrarily run more tests on it. I have to go back and look, but I remember reading some notes in which the “CTS” (cotton-tip swab) was consumed in the DNA extraction. That means they used the whole swab to extract the DNA into solution. Let’s say they extracted it into 20 ul, and used 5 ul for the test. They could still have some DNA left from the extractions to run it a few more times as you suggested, but they’re precious samples and only someone with higher up authority would be able to tell them to re-run the tests. Also, by this time, if they were to try and take another swab from the holster or gun, there would be even less DNA obtained.

          But who would this higher up authority person be who would know (or want) to re-run these tests if the Lab says the tests were inconclusive? This data got dumped into the public 2 weeks ago, and everybody and their dog accepted the conclusions.

    • @Tchoupi, DMS-19 stain U is another curious result. Do you know where it’s located? It’s a blood stain (chemical indicator) on GZ’s jacket, the FDLE conclusion was that TM was a possible contributor but no determination could be made for GZ. I take back what I said earlier about always being able to get a DNA profile if it’s a blood stain. In this case, TM’s allele signals are stronger than GZ’s in this case. Like the holster, a number of alleles are in the “grey area” that match GZ. I don’t know if the stain itself means anything (could be just a very tiny blood splatter onto GZ’s jacket that has a low level of GZ’s indigenous DNA present from his own greasy hands), but I think it’s a good example of a sample with a mixed DNA profile with a lot of low signals in the “grey area”.

      • Before somebody jumps on my case, I take back the word “blood splatter”, a very small blood stain that barely registers DNA is not a splatter. Actually, my gut feeling has always been that TM was on the ground but to the side of GZ when the gun went off. And he wasn’t close enough to get “splattered”. I think GZ’s and MO’s specific description of how TM sat back and pivoted 90 degrees before falling to the ground was specifically to explain how no/little apparent blood got onto GZ.

        • Or to explain Trayvon trying to get up when he was shot. The holes in the shirt and hoodie are in alignment, but not with the shot wound. The holes in the garments are about 3.5 inches above and 3 inches to the left of the wound. I think Zimmerman grabbed the clothing with his left hand moving them to the right, and pulled them down when he shot Trayvon with his right hand.

      • You have to check on page 146/262. The quality of the image is really poor. I was lucky to identify stain N already. I could not find stain U.

        • Thanks tchoupi, I did try to look at those markings but I got frustrated. Really, what is the point of releasing evidence that people can’t read?

          —- Your arguing with the car dealer to me just says you don’t take other people’s explanations of things if it doesn’t make sense to you (it just being the model), you need to know the real reason, the “mechanism” behind things. That is why I had to look at the raw data.

          ******* http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-dna-problem/2012/09/30/40605a58-0a46-11e2-a10c-fa5a255a9258_blog.html
          ” “Stain I” showed the presence of “at least two individuals.” Zimmerman was the major contributor, but Trayvon was “excluded as a possible contributor to the mixed DNA profile.” So, who is this second person? ” *******

          This makes it seem like somebody else’ blood was on GZ’s shirt. In looking at the data, there was only one loci at which an allele was detected that did not match TM, and two other loci with one allele found in the “grey zone” for each. Therefore, the report is accurate to say that a minor contributor was detected that was not TM. But I found stain I on the cuff of GZ’s shirt. To me that minor DNA, if not contamination, then likely is from Shellie or someone touching the shirt earlier at the same spot the blood was found, but does not mean that somebody else’s blood was there. Articles like this make great fuel for conspiracy theories, though.

          • I may have found stain U but it’s really not obvious.
            It’s on the back near the left shoulder. There is a big circle labelled D [?] including what looks like multiple stains. Then, right next to it, there is a smaller circle labelled either U or J or C. It’s not J for sure as it is on the front. I believe t’s not C as it seems to be another stain on the back right shoulder. So, I have to guess that it’s a U.

            • Well if that’s right, then it’s a weird blood stain (U) to be on the back of GZ’s jacket with mixed DNA. And why would they make such a big circle for D to include multiple stains? Now I have to question the SPD’s handling of the evidence. Who is the portly officer touching GZ’s jacket all over the place (checking his pockets) without gloves on and then wiping his hand on his pants after? Same guy who wanted GZ’s hands washed and head cleaned up before getting in the police car and maybe tucked his shirt in for him also so he’d look nice and presentable?
              http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

          • WSI wrote “This makes it seem like somebody else’ blood was on GZ’s shirt.”.

            Well, there is non human blood on GZ’s jacket (stain Z). I don’t know how common it is to find people’s and animal’s blood on jackets. So, I’m not going to be critical. But, it sure is surprising.

            How likely is it that the minor DNA doesn’t come from blood? I mean, it happened to be that GZ’s blood dropped right on a spot where there already was someone else’s DNA. After all, sleeves and shoulder are places you can expect people to touch.

            • “How likely is it that the minor DNA doesn’t come from blood? I mean, it happened to be that GZ’s blood dropped right on a spot where there already was someone else’s DNA. After all, sleeves and shoulder are places you can expect people to touch.”
              I think it’s not uncommon to have other people’s DNA on your clothing. Shellie’s a good candidate for the “other” DNA if she does his laundry or they’re just especially affectionate and she’s sweats a lot (sorry for putting that image in you guys’ heads).

        • Could this be the “u”? From page 199 2nd dump
          ” Made a control test “T” on center of back collar above the “u” in “free country”….

          • @Amsterdam, Thanks for looking but No, that’s not it. I was looking for a blood stain designated with the letter “u”. What you’re referring to is a description of the spot where they made a control test of the jacket on the collar where one would expect to find DNA from the wearer of the jacket to see if the method for transferring the DNA would work because the jacket was waterpoof. The test spot just happened to be above the letter U in “free country”.

  148. GZ is turning back the clock a few months and blaming his having to be in hiding on the NBC’s tape. His brother is also talking to media other than a FOX affiliate (The Young Turks). As the prosecution put it, I guess they’re trying to chum the water of the jury pool.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/04/george-zimmerman-nbc-911_n_1939059.html?utm_hp_ref=media

    http://current.com/shows/the-young-turks/videos/george-zimmermans-brother-theres-obviously-been-injustice-in-the-way-that-blacks-have-been-treated-in-our-justice-system

    • Haha. Yeah, it was NBC who made him look bad. (I don’t agree with their editing of the tapes) But GZ should be pissed at the people who really made him look bad…himself, RZ Sr. & Jr., FT, MO, JO…

      Now THEY made him look bad, lol. Hey, Mark O’Mara, can we get this trial going already??? I mean, GZ’s innocent, right? The State’s case is so weak, right? You should be filing for dismissal of all charges!

      • Extra time for the defense to prepare it’s case is giving the prosecution just as much time.

        • and you just have to look at the conservative nuthouse to know what the defense’s strategy will be…MO seems to be listening to those whack jobs a little to closely.

          • @Jo, I don’t know about MOM listening to the nuthouse, but agree, they actually make real clinically insane people look bad. For your amusement, the nuthouse leader thinks there were two DeeDees pulled out of thin air by TM’s family’s attorney. That is, he thinks TM was not on the phone, that no one was talking to him when the fight started, that Crump fabricated the phone logs and then shopped around for girlfriends to lie about it, and finally had two different girls give recorded interviews, the first one that he played at the press conference and the other with the prosecutor. Wow. Just when you thought they couldn’t be any crazier…..

            • pffffffttttt haha….whaaaaat? Do these theories of theirs actually come from anywhere, like any place of logic or evidence or do they just make them up. Crazy peeps, lol.

              And i reckon MO has such a weak case he actually does take notice of them….or at least he did while they were putting their hands in their pockets and making GZ rich. He actually argued at the 2nd bond hearing a popular argument from GZ nutters that had already been disproved, got rid of the 2nd judge like they were all beying for, sent emails to them etc. Perhaps he has stopped that now they are’nt forking over the dollars.

            • @Jo, it would be oxymoronic to talk about the nuthouse’s theories and logic at the same time.

    • the man is a blood sucking prick. He’s been profiting of this childs death from the start. Obviously his feral redneck supporters found something better to spend their welfare cheques on (like a stockpile of weapons) and he has to find someone else to blame and sponge off. At every turn he has become more disgusting and i am now void of any empathy for him. He is a fucking tumour.

  149. “Bad evidence processing, there had to be some bullet impact blow back (blood and tissue) from Trayvone’s bullet impact point on the gun at that close range ( it was on Zimmerman’s clothes). There is DNA all over Zimmerman’s clothes from the struggle why don’t they talk about that, because it does exist. Also Zimmerman’s DNA was found under Trayvone’s fingernails and on a watch he was wearing that contributed to the facial wounds on Zimmerman’s face. Be careful this may not end like some people expect.”

    Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/09/19/new-evidence-no-trace-of-trayvon-martins-dna-on-george-zimmermans-gun/#ixzz28UHLWFVh

    GZ supporters like to make shit up. Class, can we point out the lies?

    • @qetno, GZ’s DNA was not found under TM’s fingernails. Some of TM’s DNA was found on GZ’s clothes, but barely, one positive stain, not “all over”, I’m not aware of any watch TM was wearing, and even if there were, no DNA test was reported. Some people are idiots. I don’t like to waste my keystrokes on them. But these kinds of comments are exactly the kind of thing I’d be afraid of if any of the DNA evidence were to “change” in the public domain. It was widely reported that there was no DNA on the gun. Ok true, I’ve accepted that on examining the data myself. It was also reported that there was no determination whether TM’s DNA was on the holster. Also true. No determination, means TM was not ruled in or out. But people only think that means no DNA. Now if the defense were to decide and try to get a better analysis or somehow do re-testing to get a positive DNA for TM on the holster (for which I suspect there is), then people will accuse the prosecution of suppressing evidence, NOT TRUE at all, but again, some people are idiots, and might not understand the quandry for GZ if TM’s DNA were determined to be on the holster, however it got there, will mean he had his holster out of his pants and lied about it for some reason. You can’t fix stupid There’s the good and then there’s the ugly side of Sunshine laws.

  150. Getting back to an earlier discussion about W18’s 911 call statement about “taking a flashlight,” I wanted to say that I have listened again to the 911 call and feel like she is definitely watching the whole time that W13/Jon is out near GZ prior to ofc Smith’s arrival. She must have seen the iPhone camera flash when he snapped three photos but the “taking a flashlight” comment doesn’t seem to me like it is response to that action specifically. It’s an unfinished sentence, lacking full context but the timing of it seems to me to suggest that GZ walked north as W13/Jon walked towards him, west then south probably and the ” they are taking a flashlight” comment is probably about the two of them moving back towards the body, or just W 13/Jon walking towards the body. We know he went at least 30 feet or so south of the T because that’s where he stood to take the two pics of the black flashlight and black flashlight/body.

    To me this comment corroborates the idea that GZ walked north after he stood up from the body. W13/Jon seems to have had to pass him going south to where he stood to take the photos, at least 30 feet south and probably more like 40 feet or more south of the T.

    • @willis, I think you’re right in that the “taking the flashlight” has to do with a flashlight being shown on the body. This is where listening to the actual call beats reading a transcript as her tone of voice tells you things. At the start of the call, it was too dark for her to tell what had happened after the “pop”. She says, they’re still out there, and while nervous she’s still somewhat calmer. Then GZ starts walking, then she sees Jon coming out with a flashlight. Listen at the part when the dispatcher asks her if it’s a male or female screaming. She had to ask him to repeat the question (pardon?) and then answers by guessing it’s a man/male, sounding distracted as she’s trying to figure out what they’re doing there. That would coincide with the first (?) picture taking event of GZ’s head. But she couldn’t know or tell that Jon was taking the photo. I don’t know how iPhones takes photos but if there was a clear flash from the camera phone then she would have been able to tell that and say “someone’s taking a picture”, So there was no camera flash or it was masked by a light from the flashlight. In any case, it’s only some seconds later that she says “someone’s taking a flashlight” and then quickly starts talking about the body and became more distraught. So yeah, it was only then that she could see the body more clearly from a flashlight being show on it.

      • i agree i don’t think there would have been a flash i think the photo was illuminated by the flashlight. Can anybody tell me from memory if jon ever tells how it came about that he took the photo’s because it all seems to have happened very quickly. Why wasn’t he scared, was he asked to take photo’s etc? I should go check all his statements and interviews but sometimes i have a terrible time with links etc…i still can’t view whonoze’s video and it’s killing me. I also only get a short time on the internet and tend to just read through the last few threads here to catch up but i feel a bit lost most of the time and like i’m a bit left behind because i haven’t done my homework. I might go check out NLME’s post with the links and see whats working for me………and right on cue there it is…”MUUUUUUMMMM!!!!!!”……oh well maybe later.

        • @Jo, per JonW13’s recorded statement with FDLE (see axiom amnesia site), he said GZ asked him if his head was bloody and knelt down on the sidewalk, but at first doesn’t admit to taking the photo or if he was asked to take a photo. Only late in the interview does he say, oh yeah, I’ve got these pictures, almost forgot about them. Yeah “forgot”.

        • It’s a flash picture. Light’s too even and hot for a flashlight.

          I doubt W18 refers to it. It’s unlikely anyone would mistake a photo-flash for anything but what it is. It’s a bit odd she doesn’t mention it, unless her tongue gets twisted and she says “flash light” instead of ‘flash photo’. (??) She didn’t say anything about seeing a photo flash on CNN either, but that could have been just because they didn’t ask her. Perhaps, though, she just didn’t see it, looking away for just a moment. (??)

          • @Whonoze or anyone else, given that W18 can hear the conversation between Officer Smith and GZ, but we don’t hear it, can you evaluate/deduce/guess where they might have been at the time they started talking to each other? Closer to the body or up by the T? I realize there are factors such as how much sound the phone can pick up and how loudly they were talking. Also take into account the time between when W18 thinks she sees the officer coming and when she hears GZ says he shot the guy. GZ’s re-enactment made me think he was still near the body when Officer Smith came over (but that could be because he was skipping over his pacing back and forth and his interaction with Jon). If Officer Smith approached the scene and saw two guys next to a body, I’d expect him to be yelling how, “What’s going on?” a lot sooner, but it seemed like he didn’t see the body at first when approaching GZ and Jon, or was just sauntering up to the scene, and was like, hey who shot the guy?

            • All I can tell is that w13/Jon stood near the body to take his pic. Did he walk past GZ to do so? We can’t know. But GZ was seen walking north, and that makes me think Jon/w13 did pass GZ to go look at the body. GZ was likley on the phone while Jon snapped all three pics. He would have felt foolish interrrupting GZ while GZ had a phone to his ear, and he’s more or less behind GZ when he snapped the pic of the bloody head.

              None of that tells me that GZ walked any father north than the tan bag however. But he may well have.

              I think the bloody head photo is a flash photo. I can’t be sure about the other two as the quality is so poor. The iPhone 4 has a built in flash. The photos of the body and black flashlight have a “hot spot” in the center that could be the flash or it could be a flashlight beam. Too hard to tell without testing. Does anyone in the group have a iPhone 4? or a smart phone with a flash? If so, please take a picture of a flashlight in the grass and show us!

            • @willis. When you say GZ was on the phone by the time Jon got there is that known or are you just guessing? I know he asked jon to make a call but didn’t know he had made a call himself. I guess it will show on his phone log when it’s released.

            • @wilis pls ignore my previous post, i just read further ^^^^ that way. Sorry i had totally missed that discussion.

            • JonW13’s wife also said that she could see her husband talking with the GZ from her back porch. It limits a bit the area they could be.
              We now know that JohnW6 could see the 2 of them too.
              Adding the picture of TM’s body to the mix, you can guess that jonW13 & GZ were by Manalo’s back porch.

              Concerning JayneW18 hearing what GZ said, I believe they were loud. Officer Smith would probably not go whispering in GZ’s ears. Instaed, he probably handled that from the distance with his gun aiming at GZ.

              JohnW6 heard GZ say that the gun is on the ground. It may have happened when JonW13 approached as he thought it was a police officer. I believe that’s the case since T. Smith clearly reports the gun was in GZ’s pant’s pocket together with the holster. GZ stating that the gun is on the ground might be the reason why JonW13 discussed calibers with GZ. In any case, it means that GZ was loud and careful not being shot by an Officer.

            • “Concerning JayneW18 hearing what GZ said, I believe they were loud. Officer Smith would probably not go whispering in GZ’s ears. Instaed, he probably handled that from the distance with his gun aiming at GZ….GZ was loud and careful not being shot by an Officer.”

              I guess you’re right about the being loud so he won’t get shot, but I wonder if Smith did have his gun out. W18 didn’t seem to know it was an officer for some time, but could be she could only see a flashlight shining first. I’m just curious how he approached the scene. For those who have combed the Event logs better than I have, if he wasn’t close enough to hear the shot himself, then do we know that he got a radio transmission advising him of the shot from other 911 calls? Otherwise, as far as he knew, he was just going to meet GZ, because the “suspect” had ran, which was the last that GZ told the dispatcher.

            • WSI,

              Te gunshot was at 7:16:56.
              T. Smith was advised of a gunshot at RATL as he arrived per his own report.
              He closed on GZ’s call (7:17:11) to respond to W03’s 911 call as he entered the complex at about 7:17:36 (from memory).
              He got his final address only after W19 called 911 at 7:18:00pm.
              He is seen by the “T” by W18 at 7:19:28pm.

              So, for sure he knew about the gunshot as he approached GZ.

            • Thanks Tchoupi, I knew the timing was close but reading that makes me feel just a little nauseous thinking how close the police were.

  151. BTW here is a peek at what my crude animation will look like. the motion will NOT be smooth. it swill just be 10 frames or so skipping along.

    GZonTTL3

    what do you think? it wont be prefect but it should show the visually challenged what may be going on in the pool video.

    Should be done i a few more days

      • Thanks for the encouragement. This sort of animation will always be a speculative interpretation however and now I’m reaching the speculative part.

        There are two obvious ways he could have made a U turn. I’m curious what others think they are seeing.

        23:06 car disappears fully into blind spot. What happens between that time and the moment that the “constant flare” seems open to interpretation, and more importantly, how close to camera the car moves is also an open question.

        Sometimes I think that what I am looking at in the clubhouse video is GZ making the first turn, heading east towards the cut thru path and then when he nears the second corner, turning the opposite way that the road bends – he makes a left to face north and then backs up his car moving south. To me this accounts for the lag time when his lights seem to disappear into the blind spot and then reappear crossing the “snowmam” moving screen left to right at a moment just before the constant flare blooms.

        Other times it seems to make more sense that GZ passed the second corner entirely and turned around in a spot farther south than we can see. There is quite a delay between sightings, but we dont seem to see the car traverse the snowmam except for a single frame or two where it’s unclear what’s going on. This video “evidence” exists on the ragged edge of legibility, I’d say. There’s even the open question of, is this the same car? It certainly seems to be, but the video by itself doesn’t prove that “beyond a reasonable doubt.” Instead, it seems to be part of a set of circumstantial pieces of evidence that add up to a fuller picture once one considers the other factors.

        here’s the start of the animation, a rough draft as it were and a work in progress. I’m curious to hear feedback from others on movements and timing.

        any feedback is appreciated.

        • typo correction to the corrupted wording above:

          At 23:06 the car disappears fully into the blind spot. What happens between that time and the moment that the “constant flare” seems to bloom larger is still open to interpretation, and more importantly, how close to camera the car moves is also in question. The timing suggests part of the story but nothing definite is really visible.

          • I took pictures of my neighbor’s silver honda from all angles. Then as a background I used the tv news video shot from near the swimming pool, the same image I used in an overlay illustration I had from before.

            Then using photoshop I made a series of frames with the car laid in wherever I thought it seems to appear in the clubhouse video. Then using iMovie, a mac program I play the slideshow as a video sequence in HD.

            The cartoonish look is done using the “cutout” filter in photoshop, which makes things look sorta poster-like. The positioning of the car is so subjective anyway I’d hate to try and pretend this was “realistic” at all. It’s better to admit it’s a crude approximation by making it look more like a watercolor or whatever.

            The honda is not a pickup model but it’s built on the same chassis I think.

        • I haven’t timed it, but it seems the rearlights can be seen longer than other cars driving east. The bloom could belong to another car, but then that car stopped facing the clubhouse, when Zimmerman was clearly describing Trayvon as near the clubhouse, and coming towards him. Obviously we don’t have a visual of the car itself, but Zimmerman places himself on TTL, if that is not his car, he wasn’t on TTL when he said he was.

          We see a light event in the eph, right after the bloom has disappeared. I agree with Tchoupi here, that this is just a light and not a car passing the eph. I think those are the headlights of GZ’s car. There is no indication of another car driving on RVC to have caused that light. That would indicate to me that GZ stopped his car very near bend. That light also disappears and since no car passed the clubhouse, may be an indication that GZ turned his lights of after he stopped his car.

          How GZ continued to follow Trayvon after that, is not clear. He could’ve backed up his car, or backed out his car at a 90 deg angle and then followed him with his car facing east, close to the curb. I think both are equally valid speculations. I favor the one facing east, because of the sequence of the sounds in the nen call.
          Right after he says ” these assholes, they always get away”, you can hear him shift in his car seat and then you hear the gear. But I have no problem accepting the backing up theory, if that is the consensus.

    • That’s really nice.
      I also have my part of the job in progress. I too should share my .doc earlier to get some feedbacks. I’ll try to do it later today.

  152. Sorry, slow news period…….GZ’s big bro, Robert, claimed he lost his job because of GZ’s case. So that’s why he has so much time on his hands now to hit the media trail. He was on Geraldo yesterday briefly. (I didn’t see it, and that clip is not available). But the “losing his job” was reported at the very end of this news clip. Wonder what his job was and when that happened? I guess they can blame everything bad happening to their family on the “media bias” now.
    http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/national/21008735943252/robert-zimmerman-jr-speaks-out-to-geraldo-rivera/

      • That video was… amusing. People hear all sorts of things in the 911 call but this guy takes the cake. For those who dont want to spend the time to listen, this is a video that has a conspiratorial spin for every thump and background noise and loosely pushes the idea that there was another person in the car with GZ, who was reading from a prepared script, turning the pages as he spoke. The other person whispered directions to George as he read and possibly exited the car at a different time. He also claims to hear a spoken interaction between GZ and TM as TM passes the vehicle. The video is hard to follow and is made of speculative text on screen over the NEN call recording. You have to pause it many times to try to read the text as it flies by. The video’s author has a YouTube “handle” of ThisSh*tHasGottaStop, which seems somewhat fitting, not matter which way you take it.

        • On the whole vid there’s only one instance where I can actually hear what the author claims is being said. I’m not so concerned by the authors conspiratorial tone, obviously anything he is able to produce will have be be duplicated by others. Meaning it’s either really there or it’s not. I intend to listen a few more times, then listen to an unenhanced version a few times. But, first I want to see if others hear the same thing. It sounds pretty clear to me and it sounds like it’s in the background. There’s so much about this case that’s strange, to say the least, almost nothing can be dismissed out of hand.

          • You are wise to not say what it is you think you may have heard. If you plant a suggestion in someone’s head that you can hear, say, “goon” or “punk” there is a good chance that others will “hear” it too. It’s only natural to want to hear something legible, and our imaginations are powerful tools but very prone to suggestion.

            But I’m curious WHERE in the NEN call recording you think you might hear something interesting in the background. Let others know the timing and DON’T say what you hear. Let’s try to be objective and see what a group of opinions brings forth.

            Suggestion to others with interest here: try to play the recording to someone who knows nothing about the case, and play it out of context. Like you said, either it’s there or it isn’t.

            • I don’t want to “poison the well”, so I don’t give a time and I don’t give a clue, other than to say that it’s one of the things the author points out. Most of what he points out, I can’t hear. But this one thing I do hear and very clearly. The tape is not so long that it would be a real burden to listen to it a couple of times. It shouldn’t take more than one pass to hear it, and a second pass to confirm it. I’m quite surprised that no one has found it by now, makes me begin to doubt what I heard. But, I go back and there it is, clear as a bell. a remark being made in the background.

            • @Lonnie, is it the “tell him”? I can kind of hear why they think it sounds like that, but it rather sounds like an artifact to me. Speaking of poisoning the well, I think when I first heard the NEN tape of GZ, and it was being debated whether or not he said “c**ns” or goons or cold or punks. I could have sworn on a stack of bibles that it was “c**ns” and at the very least goons because of the harder “c” sound. I listened to it over and over and always heard a “c” sound. It must have been an “enhanced” version. Anyway, in listening to the unredacted version, now I can hear the “p” sound and it does sound more like “punks”. I can’t swear on a stack of bibles on that, nor do I think it really matters now, but just an example of how different “enhancements” can distort a sound coupled with somebody’s suggestion.

            • WSI said: “Anyway, in listening to the unredacted version, now I can hear the “p” sound and it does sound more like “punks”. I can’t swear on a stack of bibles on that, nor do I think it really matters now, but just an example of how different “enhancements” can distort a sound coupled with somebody’s suggestion.:
              —————————————————————————-
              Which is why I’m doing it this way. I hear it, I look for others to confirm it, I go back and listen again, then I go get the nearest thing I can find to the original to listen to.

              Consider this, NLME suggested they may have been using walkie talkies. Might that not explain the sort of mechanical sound? It would certainly explain some of those noises we’re hearing. WT’s pop, snap, crackle and distort, and they make plenty of noises each time the talk buttons are pressed or released.

              One thing I think we’re all agreed on is, there’s much more noise in the NEN tape than there should be, if GZ were simply carrying out the activities he stated.
              Then too, with today’s tech, there’s so many versions of the old WT, some may not even have talk buttons, but can use always on “gain” sensing.

              It goes to them having the truck removed from the scene, before the police can look into it. Seeing to it that Osterman get’s the message to go assist Shellie with the task.
              Can you just imagine what finding a cb radio or walkie talkie in the truck would have done to the discussions of this case?

  153. Witness 19 transcriptions

    Hey, y’all. I’ve started work on Witness 19 files. What I’ve done is in Google docs for you to read. I fully adjusted her 911 call starting at 7:18:00. I added seconds at each redaction cut adding a total of 10 seconds which is about average. This call will now reinforce the others we know are right. And it will work better with her interview and re-enactment.

    Serino is her only interviewer I know of. It’s in two parts. The first is longer and I have some of it up. He interviews her for the whole of the information. Then in the second part she acts out and he times her dash from hearing w6John say “911” to getting upstairs to her back bathroom window.

    I hope to finish w19 this weekend. Not banging them out like I once did. But I’m still plugging on it.

    I was just reamed a new orifice by someone I respected on the old Court Proceedings area for a speculation I made months ago. Whatever! I’m not even going to respond to a personal attack. Just in case any of you also believe I’m mentally unfit for civilization I want to say something. I’m transcribing the witnesses 1-20. I’m almost through this first step. Then I will finalize the chronological sequences for each then. The sequence partitions all of their testimony into chunks. These chunks or events can then be assigned estimated times. Each witnesses’ words are then merged with their 911 call and put into the master spreadsheet which has a second by second timescale.

    At that point comparisons can be made between the witnesses at every instant. Their columns can be moved sideways to compare groups of witnesses on specific points of importance. I think this tool will be invaluable. If not, at least you have the statements in text form to search, copy, or edit. You could make one large text file of all the interviews and 911 calls and search it for the word “white” or “flashlight” etc.

    The witnesses corroborate each other and w8DeeDee and contradict GZ. With my ss tool I won’t have to speculate anymore. Then I’ll respond to my hate mail only if some or all of my previous guess turns out to be correct. HA! I think we have all been on to George from the beginning. Some elements of our thinking were right from the get go.

  154. O’Mara is out fishing in now. Curiously, in this motion, he talk about trying and failing to get a possible 3rd recording made of witness 9 that was inaudible. Don’t know, I can’t read legaleese very well. In any case, I thought he wanted witness 9 to go away.

    Click to access review_of_discovery.pdf

    http://gzlegalcase.com/
    http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/Zimmerman-attorneys-want-Martin-s-online-cellphone-info/-/14266478/16896156/-/pl0wne/-/index.html

    • I’d file this under due diligence, stall tactics and a way to suggest that the “missing interview” is somehow exculpatory. I don’t foresee any traction with this tactic, but he’s obliged to grasp at straws I suppose.

      • I think you are right. We already know from the bond hearing that he doesn’t know the correct witness #s for people. He just keeps echoing what TCTH folk jibber jabber on about. They got no case. CCW holders are typically held to a higher responsibility/standard; they are informed to avoid confrontation at all costs while carrying. RE: DO NOT GO AFTER SOMEONE WHILE CARRYING. Trayvon Martin asked why he was being followed and GZ responded by reaching into his “pocket.” He had the ability to walk away. He did not. If GZ did not answer the question and reached into his pocket to a cop, he’d get shot! TM defends himself from a crazy vigilante and GZ’s the victim? Truly laughable.

          • Poor Mark. Dude, I feel so fuckin’ bad for you. These people just can’t help themselves.

            They blame anyone and everyone who speaks about them for why others think they are racist. Well, shit son…words and actions tell us all we need to know. No one else outside of GZ people and GZ made me think he was a fucking prick…who happens to also have likely race issues.

            Many parents of missing, abducted, abused, and murdered kids go to the media, and many also have a lawyer and/or PR to speak on their behalf and keep the case in the public, but apparently it’s how dare this happen for a n*****! This isn’t some new fangled fucking idea, dipshits. Who do these black people think they are having lawyers and PR?! Oh yeah, that’s right, they are citizens of this country that have the rights that everyone else does. Robert Zimmerman, y’all are acting as PR for George. Just keep that in mind. Keep in mind all the hate and BS you, your daddy, mommy, GZ wifey, Ostermans, DUI Frank, and rent-a-n***** Oliver put out there. Keep in mind that SPD claimed GZ was squeaky clean when he wasn’t. Keep in mind that SPD went hunting for dirt on TM. TM’s family spoke out against the anti-TM tripe put out against him just the same as GZ’s side stood up for GZ… You wanna be mad now? Be mad. Truth hurts.

            I thought GZ was an idiot when I first heard the story. Didn’t hate him or his family until they started on their bull. What kind of stupid fucks get mad at their own doing? LOL!!

            O’Mara pisses me off, too, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s just trying to do his job. As much as I don’t like GZ, he deserves a fair trial. His friends and family will never learn to shut the fuck up and sit their asses down. No one hated them…no one thought they were racist…no one gave a shit about them…til they spoke.

            O’Mara’s words to Robert would likely be: “ROBERT! Get a dunce cap and go sit in the corner!! You are making my job fucking harder! I’ve got George to deal with!”

            To the tune of Britney Spears…Ooops, I ranted again! 😉 Oy.

      • @diary, that does make more sense, thanks! @qetno, I know he was mixing up witness numbers in the bond hearing, but doesn’t he have an assistant to double check things on a court document, or did the funds run dry (sarcasm)? Makes me almost wish somebody would give them more money so he DOESN’T have to depend on the treepers for his “research” (double sarcasm).

        • I just read that a GZ supporter, who is close contact with the defence team (her name is Annette) said it is actually W9 to whom they referred. They allegedly told her that it will make sense at the trial.

          • That proves nothing, but thanks for the info anyway.

            The thought that it’s dee dee still makes more sense to me, ESP since we know there is a poor quality recording floating around, and a seemingly better copy available too.

            I hate to cast aspersions upon someones comments on a blog I’ve not read but “GZ supporters close the case” haven’t enjoyed a great track record of “truthiness” IMO. I’ll wait and see.

          • @diary, thanks for the follow-up. Like Willis, I am skeptical of what a GZ supporter knows. But if it does have to do with W9, then all I can think of is that on axiom amnesia’s website, there are 3 recordings of W9. One of them is the first recording of her anonymous phone call to SPD, and then there are two recordings from 3/20 in a sitdown interview. I guess they might question why there are two recordings from that day and if there’s missing audio or redacted information from in between? Who knows. It’s fishing time…

    • Hi Tchoupi,
      I can access it. I took a quick look and I like the outline. I think that is the way to go. It is a little late now, but I will take a close look at it tomorrow.
      I noticed that you said ridgeline is white. I thought it was silver or grey.

      Here are two links to 3d bing map of the clubhouse. I had a real difficult time picturing the pool halls and the mail area, until I saw these maps.

      http://binged.it/SJEBKf
      http://binged.it/R1658J

    • If you didn’t watch, you didn’t miss much… She refused to answer questions that were not self-serving. She had to be prompted twice to answer what SHE would say to the family that lost a son. The first time asked she started stuttering then said that Robert Jr. already addressed that. It was just more self-serving garbage. They love playing the victim. BTW, where is the proof of ANY credible threat against any of them? Family of liars.

    • Very short interview. Gladys didn’t answer many questions, as Piers asked her things like “how would she feel if roles were reversed and that were her son who had gotten shot” or “has she come to terms that George might spend 30 years in prison.” She was uncomfortable and didn’t want to answer those questions, I get the impression she was scared to say anything that could be incriminating (unlike the rest of the crew, she actually might be the smart one for not talking more), and hesitated when asked what she would say to the Martin family, saying that the message was already given in the letter RZ read before. When pressed on what she would say as a mother to another mother, she did apologize for “the loss of their son,” though.

      However, it doesn’t matter what she was able to say or not say in the interview, as clearly their strategy now to combat the ‘racist’ image, by having RZ’s face splashed all over and although Gladys’ face was shadowed (like RZ, Sr was in his earlier interviews), she has a heavy accent. They also showed a bunch of GZ’s family photos with him as a kid and with family/friends who were not “white”.

      The most she talked about was being upset that GZ was labeled racist, she mentioned the story of GZ leaving flyers on cars at an African-American church about the Sherman Ware case. Piers cut her off, kinda impatient (in a polite British kind of way) saying something to the effect that (paraphrasing) “we’ve heard stories like that before, but it doesn’t mean that George didn’t see an young black male that night and profiled him”. Bingo, Piers!

      • Perhaps you can explain why at the right bottom of Gladys’s blacked out figure a blacked out hand is seen which would be physically impossible to be hers? I doubt you will answer.

        • @sdunn5, Hi! I’m kinda confused by your question. It’s a rather odd observation, and I don’t know why you “doubt” I’ll answer. Or did you mean you “doubt I’ll have an answer”. I don’t see anything weird about her hand. The first time you see something raised up in the right bottom corner of the screen, she was probably holding something in her hand, maybe cliff notes? who knows. A little bit later in the clip you see clearly it’s her hand and I don’t see anything anatomically off about it. Depth perception could be off because of the blacked out picture.

          Clips From Last Night: George Zimmerman’s mother tells Morgan “My son is not a racist”

  157. WSI:

    “@Whonoze or anyone else, given that W18 can hear the conversation between Officer Smith and GZ, but we don’t hear it, can you evaluate/deduce/guess where they might have been at the time they started talking to each other?”

    Not really. How loud anything would sound at w18’s position would depend a lot on the peculiarities of the acoustics created by the spaces between the buildings, and not just a question of didtance. Also, the distance from her position to the body is not that much greater, as a percentage, than the distance from her position to the ‘T’ anyway.

    • Thanks Whonoze, just a shot in the dark question. (absolutely NO pun intended).

  158. LOL…now TM climbed a tree to get in the retreat 2/26 (it was also apparently summer, lmao) according to one poster on HP. Too funny.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/george-zimmerman-trial-delay_n_1951420.html?utm_hp_ref=black-voices

    Reading the comments is like taking a ride on the “short bus.” Well, I don’t know about all of you, but I say go on…let them have TM’s records. If there was any real dirt, SPD would have released it back when they were releasing the other info about him. Besides, O’Mara doesn’t really wanna go there. TM’s past vs. GZ’s past…hands down, you know TM’s looks better than GZ’s.

    • Playing to public’s image. Some people think Trayvon was a bad kid based on loaded media hype. It’s the same attitude GZ had that night. The tactic is to smear Trayvon by throwing crap at him and seeing what sticks. Some will be impressed and believe the crap even if it’s not true. In fact, this is probably what some on the jury will think.

      The jury game is not strictly about the truth. Just as much rides on innuendo, smear, hearsay, and whatever is floating around in jurists’ psyches. If MOM says or implies that Trayvon was a purple alien with green spots it will have an affect on somebody. Damage can be done even when something said is overruled.

      It’s a two-way street. GZ has a lot more coming his way in trial, too.

  159. @lonnie, @WSI

    regarding suggestions made on YouTube that there is audio evidence of a second person heard on the NEN call recoding….

    The well is already poisoned to anyone who watched this conspiracy theory video. I “think” I hear a couple of things suggested but I don’t trust my ears since I’ve been the recipient of the suggested words.

    Unless you play the recording for someone with no familiarity with the recording, and likely with the case as well, you are chasing your own tail I feel.

    That’s why I wanted to know the timing marks of the NEN call recording in question, so I could play them for a “civilian.” I suggest others do the same. But knowing the timing is helpful. I didn’t want to have to watch the video a second time and thus be more familiar with the suggested words that may or may not be there.

    • @lonnie and willis, I watched that video again and man, the guy has a lot of things wrong, such as mistaking the windshield wiper noises for car door opening. Many things, you’d really have to reach into your imagination to make out. Per your request willis, at 1:50 in the unredacted NEN call (the one on youtube by craigboyce.com with the yellow crime tape) between the words “When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and make a left” and “actually….” In that pause between “left” and “actually”, I hear what was suggested in that video but I still think it’s an artifact.

  160. Well I can’t hear it in the unedited copy, I can hear the place but it only sounds like an unidentifiable noise. In the enhanced copy it says “Tell Him”.
    But after listening to the AxiomAmnesia copy, It sounds to me like George is holding the phone on his shoulder while he’s fiddling with his gun. The way his voice drags is what you’d expect to hear from a person doing more than just talking. His voice drags along at one point, as though he’s trying to do something with his hands, while attempting to keep the phone from slipping off his shoulder.

    Note that when he starts the NEN call there aren’t any background noises. They start up later in the call.

    • The thought that he is driving as the call begins, one hand on the wheel and the other on his phone makes sense to me. The fiddling around noises would come after he parked. As others have noted, he may have stopped, foot on brake and transmission still in DRIVE for a while before he ever put the car into PARK, if he ever did so. Or, he may have wanted to cut all his lights and so put the car into neutral or park before moving it from the corner, which seems to be the consensus opinion here of where he parked initially.

      If his trolling by the mail kiosk is any hint, he was driving slow and seemingly looking for something.

      But as always keep in mind there are two things we are finding out: what can be proven in court and what just seems the most likely explanation for events seen according to the evidence that the public has at present. There is overlap aplenty but one doesn’t always prove the other.

      (I’m uploading a new animation presently of GZ on TTL. I’ll post again when it’s done.)

  161. Here is the little animation of GZ’s car moving on TTL as seen in the pool cam video, in a rough cut form. I’d like to adjust the timing slightly to make it match the surveillance footage more closely, but I think this is right as far as the positioning of the vehicle is concerned. Feedback appreciated.

    I may also color tint the whole thing to be more “day-for-night” looking, but I’ve intentionally left out the headlight beams for now. Should I put them in? It’s a lot more work.

  162. Hahaha… In an interview with Larry Elder, RZ states that GZ’s NE call ends with George saying “ok” (to the stop following TM) and that he stopped in his tracks immediately and headed back to the car. LIE. He follows this statement up with his family tells the truth.

    • RZ also said again in the Larry Elders interview that George was bleeding out of his ears like he did in the other interview in LA. Another thing he said that was WRONG when asked by Elders if George was responsible for catching a burglar, he responded by saying that George had called police WHILE a crime was in progress. Hmmm, I don’t remember him catching any burglars or calling while an actual crime was being committed, unless he’s talking about the time GZ called about a “gentleman” wearing pajama pants and a black bomber hat who also “happened” to be black. Oh yeah, maybe it was a crime of fashion.

      • This is easy to do. The whole family is doing it and so are the Conservative Treepers — you listen to ONE STORY, believe it 110% and then never ever again listen to anything about the subject.

        In this the family/friends are very consistent. Each is sticking to the story HE was originally told. That others were told something different does not affect them, for this reason, that they are unaware of it.

        That way you are spared any internal conflict between what you first heard and whatever interfering evidence to the contrary the (insert swear words) other side might come up with.

        Where I come from this is called having a “boarded up head”, as in when storm shutters are put up on windows and no light can enter or leave the room.

    • ** read in the voice of Steve Martin**

      RZ Jr. didn’t _lie_. He just forgot the last part of the call. He has ADHD, you know. You say he hasn’t mentioned that he has the same memory problems as his brother. Of course he hasn’t said so. He FORGOT.

      **apologies to Mr. Martin**

  163. Okay, one more version of this animation, Sorry to flood the channel but I think this is pretty much everything I can do on this little project as far as the timing and movement side of the work goes. I may change the color scheme, but beyond that I need feedback before I’d change any movements. In the end I decided that you just can’t see how the car turns around, only that one set of lights goes west and then headlights come back east. Is this proof “beyond a reasonable doubt” of anything? I’m not convinced, but a jury might be if they understood all the surrounding circumstances.

    I think this should be used in conjunction with other materials to help explain the pool video. Seeing this animation helps those unfamiliar to visualize the arrival of ofc. Smith as well. (I suppose I could make a similar animation of smith’s arrival but it hardly seems necessary.)

    Any feedback is appreciated.

    • @Willis, hi, just wanted to let you now I saw the video, and give my 2 cents (cause that’s just about what it’s worth). Because of the rather dark coloring of the cartoon, I don’t think you need to do anything else to make it seem like nighttime, besides the point is to just illustrate how the truck moved. At some point, you might consider having the real life picture, or even the few seconds of the clip that the picture came from panning across, at the beginning of the video, and then fade into the cartoon. Just a suggestion. Headlights would be good but don’t put in the extra work until you get more feedback from other people.

      Regarding what you have so far, the “choppiness” of it kinda matches the actual timelapse video so side by side it might make sense to have it that way. It was just very striking to see the note that no headlights are seen for 23 seconds, and does leave a big question as to whether it is GZ’s truck. Sorry if I’ve missed some or much of the discussion on how we’ve settled on it being GZ’s truck. I guess based on the timing alone, there are very few cars that moved past the clubhouse and then east on TTL that way during that time. But the question is, how does it compare to other cars coming west on TTL towards the clubhouse.
      There’s another car that came that way earlier than GZ in whonoze’s video: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidw4636.mp4

      *********
      6:59:12 start seeing headlights coming towards clubhouse. I see a light that approached the snowmama from the right on TTL. (by the way when It’s raining at this time, she seems a little brighter and her “cleavage” is fused, just an observation don’t know what it means)
      6:59:23: see light shining on the edge of mail kiosk in the East Pool Hall video, suggesting the headlights of the approaching car.
      6:59:25: see two faint streaks appear in the East Pool Hall video, suggesting the car going by
      6:59:27: car is gone
      *********
      Now with what we think is GZ’s truck, we see:
      7:09:09 headlights appear in East Pool Hall video, sits for about 10 seconds
      7:09:24 see rear lights as the truck moves slowly away from the mail kiosk and past the pool
      7:09:43 the truck disappears
      7:10:08: start seeing headlights coming towards clubhouse. We think that it’s GZ’s truck shining his lights on the clubhouse and parking.
      7:10:18: However, I see one very faint streak in the East Pool Hall video here just after the bright lights on the poolhouse camera. Could this mean it’s different car going by heading towards the front gate? I only see the streak but did not see the light shining on the kiosk like with the car at 6:59. Could just be an issue of the time lapse camera not capturing the right frame. Any thoughts on this? Also, if you were to compare how bright the headlights got shining on the pool area at 6:59 and and at 7:10, can anyone tell if the event at 7:10 was just as bright or not as bright as the one at 6:59 to suggest whether the car/truck came as far as the poolhouse and then passed it?
      **********
      7:13:42 there’s another car approaching the snowmama from the right on TTL.
      7:13:57 See a streak in the East Pool Hall video as it goes by towards the front gate.
      **********

      The “streak” in the EPH video is definitely not as clear as that at 6:59 or at 7:13, but it’s there. Could it be anything other than a car going by?

      • Oh, also in thinking about evidence for or against it being GZ’s truck at the mailboxes in East Pool Hall video, it was a Sunday night, so there’s little chance of anyone else stopping there to check their mail.

        • It sorta boils down to this: if this isn’t him, his story is even more falsified.

          (If this isn’t him, then he was never on Twin Tree Lane at all.)

          As for the long gap as he presumably makes a U turn, some of it may be that his car is just in the blind spot before it even reaches the second corner, and does not become visible again until it returns part way west down TTL.

          But yes, by itself the surveillance video proves little. It has to be seen in context with other evidence, and presented as the deductive reasoning that it is. But most people familiar with at least the basic story and the “walk thru / re-enactment video” can look at this and see that the man has pushed a false narrative regarding his movements and most likely the movements of the unarmed teen he killed. And it serves to corroborate portions of Dee Dee’s account.

          Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the whole thing needs more context, but this is just the tiny part that stands in for what can be shown by playing clips of the whole pool video.

          I did an overlay of the pool video frame and the view of the street, that I would eventually also make into a video clip. You can see the overlay here in this slide show:

          http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeandodge/sets/72157631654933732/with/8038089590/

          The animated video clip isn’t yet meant to stand on its’ own. Yet. Hopefully all of this great material everyone is contributing can come together somehow, tho. I still favor a web presentation of text and video combined, more like a magazine article with video clip illustrations, but others seem to want to make a stand-alone video to put on YouTube, with a lot of voice-over narration. Whatever works is fine by me.

      • @WSI regarding the other cars that travel west on TTL. To me it’s fairly clear that they pass the EPH cam and the one that seems to be GZ does not. I just went and looked at all the ones you cite again, and while it’s possible I’m biased, that’s pretty much always been my impression, even before the timing was worked out so closely with the 911 calls, etc.

        I do think that southbound cars on TTL tend to light up the buildings across the pond on Long Oak Way. Westbound cars are difficult to judge as far as the depth/ distance from camera is concerned. The headlights flare out the camera lens dramatically. I would be interested in working out the timing however of both east and west traffic and trying to make a closer comparison of events. There might be useful data in there somewhere that speaks to where GZ parked after his (first) U turn, or at least where he was when he switched off his headlamps.

        It’s minutia in some regards, looking at “snowmam” and such but then again it seems to be all adding up to a larger picture. Thanks again for the feedback.

    • news flash: Journalists working on a deadline sometimes get things wrong!

      addendum: Television reporters and anchorpersons work on even shorter deadlines, and get more things wrong.

      • What makes me think why the reporter would make the mistake of saying that TM called 911 was that in TM’s phone log, you see on March 2 (obviously well after the shooting), a call to 911 (emergency) was made from the phone and then two incoming calls subsequently. At quick glance they might have thought it was made the night of the shooting (Feb 26), but it wasn’t. I had always thought that was odd (as in why would they call 911 with the phone?) until I read that it was to identify the phone number. Makes sense since they had trouble accessing stuff on the phone because of the passcode lockout.

        Click to access mot_to_schedule_standing_hearings.pdf

        Meanwhile, O’Mara (or rather his co-counsel, West) is crying a river of tears about how they haven’t gotten all of the discovery and in a timely manner. His gripes are the same as our gripes in terms of getting fuzzy photocopies of evidence. Ok, fine, so he has to beg for the color copies, which he’ll get. But his insinuation with the phone stuff is that the state is hidiing something. All I can see in the document he just filed is that the state had accessed the sim card which I guess holds things like pictures but they could not get to the internal memory (which has the relevent data on the phone calls received). Now given that the family provided the phone logs which had to have matched up with the number they got from calling 911, there can’t be any question that it was TM’s phone as the treepers have been saying for months. The only thing that the state could have kept from the discovery would be pictures and personal information on that sim card, which they absolutely have the right to do because that stuff had nothing to do with the case. But it seems like they’ll use this opportunity to publicly accuse the state of hiding pertinent information.

        • @WSI

          All that stuff is good to know, and seems right but this YouTube conspiracy theory is based on what sounds like an anchor person (maybe Peter Jennings) speaking in very general terms quite early in the case. I think he’s merely conflating the 911 call of W11, where the voices are clearly heard, with the concept that Trayvon called 911, which we know he did not.

          It’s a single sentence pulled out of context and made into classic CT by a hyperbolic, and hyperventalating, no doubt, YouTuber.

          • From that Orando Sentinel article:

            “He also asked for the original audio recording Crump made when he interviewed a 16-year-old girl, perhaps the state’s most important witness, who said she was on the phone with Trayvon when he and Zimmerman first exchanged words.

            In her account, Zimmerman was the aggressor.”

            So it seems the mystery of W9 and W8 may be solved. This reporter, who presumably spoke to the other defense attorney, seems to get the impression it is the Crump/Dee Dee interview the defense is seeking.

            O’Mara may be dyslexic or something. He filed paper with the court for witness NINE interviews when this is the person who claims she was molested for many years by the defendant. Witness Eight is “Dee Dee,” who was on the phone with the unarmed teenager who was killed, for those just tuning in. (What a gaffe! Yes, please, let’s hear more from her – that ought to help you client’s image.)

        • They have no case. This is all they have left. They are scrambling. It’s not the state’s job to do the defense’s. For instance, the Jon photos, they want them…they HAVE them. We have seen them. If they want more regarding the photos, it is their job, not the state’s to seek that information. Or, they could actually depose him and get the pictures directly from the witness, but they don’t want to do that because that would be work and then they couldn’t cry with their straw man arguments.

          O’Mara’s motion for more time should not be granted if he wants to play the defense can take their time, but that state can’t take theirs. O’Mara has had tons of discovery for months and what has he done with it? Apparently nothing.

          Trial, NOW. Zimmerman would lose. At minimum, he will get manslaughter.

          • The whole thing about the DeeDee phone recording was not the state’s fault in the sense that the family’s attorney didn’t trust ANYBODY, least of all the SPD who were still the primary investigators at the time, with deposing the girl OR with the recording, so he gave it to the Feds, from whom the SAO got it. If you listen to the recording, they had to stop her and she had to start over several times because they couldn’t hear her. But what you could make out is consistent with what she says later in the interview with BDLR anyway. O’Mara’s chasing a trail there that’s not going to lead anywhere. Thank goodness, the general public doesn’t really get what that’s all about anyway.

            The state is supposed to give him all the evidence they have but I’m not sure if that means every scrap of paper someone doodles on. Geez, the doodle that GZ gave us was hardly decipherable. He’s blowing the “exculpatory” evidence thing, i.e., witness 6’s drawing, all out of proportion. The state gave him Witness 6’s recording a long time ago, which has the same information. And you’re right, he’s supposed to interview the witness himself anyway. Notice how in his earlier demand for specific discovery he essentially asks for everything, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO text messages, emails, interoffice communications, reports, etc. from the FDLE, FBI and the Dept of Justice. I guess he’ll get to cry “foul play” and “I need more time” if he doesn’t get that origami figure in the shape of GZ’s head made from paper memos by the office intern….

            Click to access demand_for_specific_discovery.pdf

            • It’s funny to watch the defense/GZ supporters get all worked up. They really want there to be exculpatory evidence, but there’s just not. My prediction for John6 is that he will be deposed by O’Mara and show more inconsistencies in his statement.

              Now, remind me? Didn’t John say that he first saw them between his house and W3’s? Also, where did W3 place them…the sidewalk or grass? We know W18 says grass the entire time. I keep trying to figure out who saw what and when.

        • Sorry, but there is something fishy going on with the Crump/DeeDee interview since the recording released by the SAO is all but unintelligible, yet ABC news had clear soundbites from the interview.

          And no, it’s not the defense’s job to dig for stuff the prosecution is supposed to give them in discovery. And no, a Xerox is not an adequate substitute for a photograph, nor is a reduced resolution .jpg that looks ‘fine’ on the web but lacks the detail of the original. There’s no way of knowing whether these things might be exculpatory or not until you can actually examine them. It’s extremely dangerous to set a precedent that the State can decide grossly inferior copies of evidence are good enough, even if that evidence CAN easily be reproduced in the form in which it was originally gathered.

          • I feel like I just read a response from a Zimmerman supporter.

            What do you think is going on? Is the prosecutor intentionally laying grounds for a mistrial? Because she appears to be good at her job, so is she intentionally flubbing this case?

          • I agree with you, whonoze. While I think even the SPD investigators had enough evidence to convict Zimmerman, Notm Wolfinger held back, and police chief Bill Lee held back their willingness to move forward. 2 million plus people pushed for a full investigation, and that never happened insofar as investigating those actions or lack thereof… The republican governor did appoint Angrla Corey as a special prosecutor and while I do think she is politically motivated to seek a conviction, I wouldn’t trust her any farther than I could throw her.

            I find the prosecution’s actions regarding thier secrecy understandable – they wish to sheild thier trial strategy. But if they are playing games with the quality of evidence shared at discovery it gives the appearance that they are not so certain the facts are on thier side.

            I’d love to see a full resolution color copy of the map GZ drew his supposed movements on. I’d love to see the police cell phone picture of GZs face sitting in the cop car. The photos by w13/Jon are important and while they may be graphic, they are part of the case in a sunshine state.

            The ABC / Crump interview may be a case where Crump had a poor recording and ABC news didn’t, but we can’t know that yet. But it’s obvious the statements she’s making are vital to the case and need to be heard by the prosecution investigators and I’m not sure they have heard them. Dee Dee talks about the car to pedestrian chase to Crump but was not asked about this by the FDLE/ BdlR team and that’s an egregious oversight. Are the prosecutors competent or not? I think they mean well but may not be as thorough as us amateur bloggers have been.

            What Tchoupi and Amstedam and others have discerned from the clubhouse videos makes me think investigators should have staged photographic tests and re-enactments (and they haven’t, we would have heard about it IMO)

            This is why what this blog is doing matters.

          • @whonoze, I just read your post over at Leatherman’s regarding your hypothetical question about ABC having a better recording of Crump’s interview with DeeDee and the legal implications. (Sorry, I don’t post there, so I’m discussing it here.) Can you tell if the clip played in the news of DeeDee recounting “What are you following me for” and “What are you doing around here”, etc. is the same, but more clear, or cleaned up, of the Crump recording? Is there a possibility that Gutman (from ABC) might have talked to her earlier on the phone briefly and thus got a short version, or that he got a recording possibly from the private detective hired by the family? There’s a part in Crump’s interview when he asked her if she knew that she was the last to talk to TM on the phone shortly before he got shot, and she replied “That’s what the man said.” Just wondering who was “this man” she talked to?

  165. I have read the the motion, on page four in bold print is a claim that Witness 6 in August drew a picture of TM on top of GZ bashing GZ head on the sidewalk. I don’t recall that witness 6 making any statement that he saw this. In fact I do believe he came out after it all happend. Is it possible anyone can provide this picture? Or witness 6 statesments? I would like to know. thank you

    • here you can browse my evidence collection dump (believe me I mean dump lol) there’s a search box upper right, try “screaminJ” then try “martial artist” (without the quotes). it’s almost all there, Tchoupi, ScreaminJ, AxiomAmnesia and the stuff from the rest of the group here, their links, excerpts etc., http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b

    • @John, Witness 6 never said “BASHing on concrete”. Below are the recorded statements for Witness 6. The interview with SPD (Serino), he says the guy on top was “throwing down blows” while they were on the concrete. However, in a later statement with FDLE on March 20 (August was when they received the drawing, however, the recordings were available a long time ago), during which he made the drawing you see in the defense’s motion, he clarified that he inserted a lot of his own initial assumptions into what was happening. His original description of “MMA” was more about TM being on top in a mounted position. He could not tell how TM’s were moving, whether to throw punches or to hold GZ down. He describes movement from the grass to the concrete and then seeing TM faced down on the grass later. He essentially saw only 10 seconds, probably less of the fight. I believe what GZ describes as “bashing” was really him attempting to get up off the ground and TM pushing him back down as they were wrestling. Even GZ said so in his re-enactment. There was no deliberate attempt to “bash” his head. They were wrestling. This is the defense’s way of trying to twist the public opinion with this “motion”.

      http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-6-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/

      • Or TM trying to get up, and GZ trying to prevent him from getting away. I think the altercation began with GZ shoving TM on the chest. Deedee says, “Somebody bumped Trayvon ’cause I could hear the grass(?). What I think she was saying, she heard the gasp, the sound someone would make if he gets a hit to the chest. Then Deedee says she could hear Trayvon say” Get off, get off. That doesn’t sound as if Trayvon was trying to hold GZ down. I think GZ tried to detain Trayvon by grabbing him, Trayvon may have swung and pushed to get away, and that is probably how they ended up on the ground.
        John said, GZ was on the bottom, facing John and it looked as if he was trying to get up. He also said he couldn’t see Trayvon’s face, because Trayvon was facing away from him. If Trayvon was hitting or holding GZ, he would’ve been looking down, not away.
        In the ten seconds or so, that John was watching, John describes the two moving from a position perpendicular to his house on the grass, to a parallel position on the path where Trayvon was still on top. That change of position doesn’t make sense unless the person on top is moving towards that position. Remember that John describes GZ facing him while it appears his body is moving up, and away from the
        path. If Trayvon was on top and in control, why would he be dragging GZ towards the path?

        • Good morning Amsterdam (or afternoon, whereever you may be). Sorry, I feel like nick-picking today.

          “I think the altercation began with GZ shoving TM on the chest. Deedee says, “Somebody bumped Trayvon ’cause I could hear the grass(?). What I think she was saying, she heard the gasp,”

          I disagree with the “gasp”. Her audio recording with the BDLR was clear when she says “grass” and “grass thing”. This is where she interprets what she heard with what she was told afterwards, that he got shot in the grass. What she probably heard was a rustling sound that could be the ear buds rubbing up against anything after it fell out of his ears. It could be grass it could be hanging down knocking against TM’s chest or knees. We just don’t know.

          “Then Deedee says she could hear Trayvon say” Get off, get off. That doesn’t sound as if Trayvon was trying to hold GZ down. I think GZ tried to detain Trayvon by grabbing him, Trayvon may have swung and pushed to get away, and that is probably how they ended up on the ground.”

          When DeeDee heard “get off get off” it was early in the altercation before JohnW6 saw anything, so no TM wouldn’t have been on top of GZ at that point. Remember all the witnesses heard a movement of the fight, whether it started up at the T or farther south (I happen to think it started by the T). I agree that GZ must have tried to grab TM and the “get off get off” could be anything from TM telling GZ to let go of his shirt, or GZ had pulled him to the ground. But somehow I don’t think they ended up on the ground until they tussled with each other all the way down by JohnW6’s house given where the phone and tan bag were found. DeeDee didn’t hear anything after “get off get off” while others could hear helps and other sounds of the altercation, so I don’t think she was an ear witness at the same time that JohnW6 saw them.

          “John said, GZ was on the bottom, facing John and it looked as if he was trying to get up. He also said he couldn’t see Trayvon’s face, because Trayvon was facing away from him. If Trayvon was hitting or holding GZ, he would’ve been looking down, not away.”

          JohnW6 had a hard time describing their positions. But facing away or looking down facing away is the same, just means that he couldn’t see TM’s face.

          “In the ten seconds or so, that John was watching, John describes the two moving from a position perpendicular to his house on the grass, to a parallel position on the path where Trayvon was still on top…. If Trayvon was on top and in control, why would he be dragging GZ towards the path?”

          JohnW6 says TM was in “control” as a response to the investigator’s question of who was in control, but I think it just means that during the time he was looking, he saw TM on top. Of course, the person on top would not be dragging, but rather it would be the person on the bottom dragging the person on top. This tells me how light TM was for GZ to have been able to do this. Alternatively, JohnW6 looked away for a second and by that time they had rolled over in the 2nd position, because he couldn’t describe how they got from position 1 to 2 very well.

          There’s so many problems with JohnW6’s testimony since he admits to inserting so much of his presumptions into what he saw in his original statement. Therefore, I don’t think John saw as much as 10 seconds of the thing. His admits his sense of time was way off. His estimate was like 5 minutes from when he heard the fight until the shot (or what he thought was a rock in a window). It’ll be interesting to see how either the defense and the prosecution uses him on witness stand. It can only lead to a very confused jury.

  166. Here are some more rough animations I’m looking for feedback on. Hopefully some of these will have some use in combination with a larger project. I’m just trying to think of ways to make things more visual and easily understood for the average viewer.

    One of them attempts to show the arrival of ofc Tim Smith. I need the exact times if anyone knows them. @thcoupi? I’m sure you’ve noted them.

    • Wow, trial June 10. That’s 8 months from now. Meanwhile, Judge Nelson gets put on civil and divorce cases so she’d have more time to devote to these hearings. It’s amazing how much public resources are going to this case. But that hearing this coming Friday to discuss whether O’Mara’s subpeonas and resulting evidence are going to be made public is the reason why he’s just flooded the court this past week with all those motions. Strategy: trying to get his accusations out there in case they try to shut him down. Is this a court of law or a spectator sport? Oh yeah, it’s florida, the sunshine state….

      • Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.. said the flailing great and powerful OzMara… the best he can do for his client is these coming months of house arrest. He’s stalling, and fund-raising and wasting the taxpayers’ money IMO. If he’s trying to poison the jury pool he’s doing the best he can but that’s not going to suddenly make his client into a credible person, and for that reason he’s wasting his time.

      • I doubt that this will happen. O’Mara will ask for something to delay the trial. The last such “Stand Your Ground” case I remember did not go to trial until 3 yeas after the incident.

  169. What IS it about Florida? A man there recently died after winning a cockroach eating contest, thus losing his chance to claim the first prize: a live python. On the more quaint front, there’s the Errol Morris film “Vernon, Florida” which is about a small town that leads the U.S. in insurance fraud, as the citizens routinely maim themselves to collect on their policies. But Morris couldn’t get anyone to talk about that, so he just made the film about how odd the people there are in general without ever mentioning the insurance scams. And on the homicide front, there’s Nick Broomfield’s brilliant “Aileen Wournos: The Selling of a Serial Killer” (not to be confused with his later film “Aileen: Confessions of a Serial Killer” or something like that, which is less interesting). If you haven’t seen ‘Selling” I HIGHLY recommend it. The circus in that case made the Z team shenanigans look like an county fair side-show. In other words, things could get weirder.

    “Remember Jake, it’s Florida” 🙂 jd

    • Yes, this is the state that brought us the butterfly ballot and hanging chads and Bush v Gore as well. “Vernon, Florida” is a good film. “Bully” by Larry Clark is hard to watch, it concerns a murder by teens but another great portrait of what some parts of Florida are like. “Sunshine State” by John Sayles is hardly his best film, but he does get some of it right. “93 in the Shade” by Thomas Maguane is a hoot, (but hardly a good film) about rival fishermen in Florida.

  170. I’ve “finished” the animation ofc Tim Smith’s arrival and included all the times I could find floating around this thread. It’s not possible or practical to make it “real time” since there are grey areas involved – we don’t know where he was for certain when W3 was speaking about him. But until I get feedback that changes my mind, I’d say “this is it” regarding how we can “show” where Tim Smith’s movements come into play vis a vis dispatch, his own reports, clubhouse videos and W3 and W19’s 911 calls seem to place him.

    (comments and feedback would be helpful)

    This animation seems to corroborate the timing we are currently using with the split screen video. His car, according to our present timing disappears from view of the pool cam by making the second corner of TTL at almost exactly 7:18:00. This is around 28-30 seconds before W3 tells 911 that she sees the car, and that that it is on the wrong side of the townhomes.

    Smith moved from the main gate to near the mailboxes at a slow speed, and then down TTL to the second corner at around three times that speed according to my calculations made from Google Maps path tool and comparing to the clubhouse videos. It seems to jibe with the re-route information and the news of the gunshot that he was getting from dispatch just then.

    From near W3’s abode, Smith drove around 930 feet and then walked around 200 feet. If he drove at 17mph or 25ft per sec, and then walked 200 feet at 5fps he would need how much time to complete the trip? 38 seconds driving and 40 seconds walking is what my math skills get me as the time it would take him. Those are slow rates of driving and walking however, and he could easily have driven faster for a large portion of the trip, and also walked a bit faster. These conservative times have him a few seconds late for when W18 spots him and remarks on his arrival and his flashlight, but it’s completely within reason that he either drove faster or walked faster or both. It’s good timing as far as I can tell. Of course it’s only an estimate but it’s entirely possible, which is more than we can say for some scenarios that have been floated in this case. (I’m speaking of GZ’s contradictory accounts of his own movements and those of Trayvon Martin.)

    • It looks like O’Mara will soon be launching a TM smear campaign (as if there weren’t any before). He used the word “Anecdotal” evidence in his arguement to look at TM school records. I looked up the word anecdotal it means in legal term, hearsay. Also there is that MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) a word the media and Witness 6 used to describe what he thought he saw, however he changed his story. This is all going to be more fishing by O’Mara, look at his website soon he will be posting what he calls proof of TM violence, like a picture of TM in a making a hand sign showing proof of his gang connection and such.

      As to GZ he does look like he is putting the weight back, as to the zoned look as I have stated before he is on some very powerful medication, Addeall for one thing.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

      • The term “anecdotal evidence” is kind of an oxymoron isn’t it? Yep, as you say, it means hearsay legally, but what do people think when they hear “evidence”? Also, the term MMA as I understand it refers to a mix of boxing and wrestling moves in the context of organized sports, i.e., hitting and grappling. Now to call it “MMA” implies some sort of expertise on TM’s part. Has anyone ever seen unsophisticated people fighting? They hit, they grab, they wrestle. If some weird creep was coming at me, you bet I’m gonna hit and grab anything I can, no MMA training needed, thank you very much. Besides, the video I’ve seen that purported is “evidence” of MMA fighting shows a bunch of kids in a school yard type of a staged “fight”, and the kid that was supposed TM in the video wasn’t even doing the fighting. I would say GZ roughing up an undercover cop and scaring an ex-girlfriend into filing an injunction against him is much more serious and evidence of someone who is likely to get into a physical altercation than a kid who smoked pot and watched a school yard fight.

      • Speaking of Adderall. Millions of people take it safely. However, it doesn’t mix with alcohol well. Some people have reported that they use it to be able to drink more, that is, they don’t feel drunk as fast, and then they can start to feel delusional. This is a comment someone made elsewhere from experience.

        http://www.healthcentral.com/adhd/c/question/51786/38508
        “hey I am 20 years old and I take 60 mg of adderall xr. one night I decided to go party with a bunch of friends, brought with me a 30 mg pill of adderall crushed it up and snorted. I thought that if I took it before I went out drinking i’d drink more and stay up longer without pass out. Unfortunately, it turned out to be a bad bad idea. After about, half a bottle a vodka, I began to experience strange side effects, I became delusional, confused and started to hallucinate. I was dropped off at home, my parents quickly realized something was wrong. My eyes had fully dilated and i was extremely confused I didn’t know were I was. I was having factitious hallucinations for example, my brother looked like a giant octopus and my parents looked like green aliens with giant heads. I was completely delusional. I then got aggressive, I began to fight them I thought they wanted to abduct me and that they where out to kill me. the effect lasted all night, until 5 am eventually, I just passed out. Mixing alcohol with amphetamine, is not a good idea. It messed me up so bad, don’t do it.”

        Wondering if GZ was seeing horns coming out of Judge Nelson’s head?

  173. I’m watching live now, missed the first part. Defense is on a laundry list of things they want from the prosecution as discovery.

    Apparently the defense has already got the digital copies of the cell phone pics taken by W13/jon’s iPhone, as per a request. They got them yesterday. No word on whether or not they would become public or not that I heard about. According to Sunshine laws, they should be released but the graphic nature of them may be an issue.

    The defense wants Witness 8 (Dee Dee)’s recording made with Crump but they went about it poorly. They complained about the quality and tried to address the quality or lack thereof, but BDLR simply went over to the gallery and grabbed Crump, who answered the judge’s questions about what he knew and BDLR addressed the chain of custody as well. It seem the facts are that Crump has Dee Dee on speakerphone w other in the room (presumably ABC reporters and tech crew) and Crump recorded with his cell phone the conversation. Then he provided it to the DoJ/FBI who passed it on to the FDLE who gave it to BDLR and then the defense got it.

    Without actually getting into it, I can say that no one fully addressed what ABC News’ role was in providing clips in their reporting even though it is obvious now to me what happened. Crump recorded the speakerphone poorly and ABC recorded it with a real microphone.

    For the defense to get this version, they are going to have to go after ABC news.

    Crump was instructed not to erase the recoding if it was still on his phone, and to bring the phone/file/ recording to his deposition that is upcoming with the defense lawyers. At that time, he can provide them the same poor quality digital file of the recording and answer questions abou who else was persent in the room that heard both sides of the conversation.

    The other issue I heard about was regarding the cell phone pics taken by ofc Wagner on scene – one of GZ and one of TM’s body. The state claims all they ever had was a color printout of the photo of GZ, and presumably the same about TM but they were not fully clear on that part. Defense wants the digital version for better analysis, and the prosecution says that Serino had it, “maybe you should talk to him,” but that he will attempt to get a digital copy for the defense.

    The defense went fishing for more FBI or FDLE files on the case citing the idea that they only got 54 pages and that “there must be more.” Not sure what the ruling if any was on that issue.

    The last thing i heard – and this is all out of chronological order – was that the defense wanted adresses for witnesses and BDLR didn’t want to give them, citing safety concerns but said he would deliver any and all witnesses The ruling there was that the witnesses could be asked at their depositions if they cared to provide their addresses to the defense at that time or not, as it was their own privacy that mattered. West was insinuating that the defense needed these addresses (Tracy, Sybrina Fulton who is Trayvon’s mother, etc) for investigative purposes but the judge brushed that concern aside.

    What happened at the very first?

    • At the beginning of the hearing they talked about GZ’s medical records and TM’s school records and social media (twitter facebook). Basically, the judge says all of that is protected by privacy laws but she’ll allow both sides to obtain all that stuff and then she’ll review them herself in her chambers to see what’s relevant before bringing it into open court. BDLR said that was fine “let ’em have it”, which meant he wasn’t fighting tooth and nail to keep anything hidden, just happy that the judge would review it first.

      Regarding the social accounts, O’Mara says he got some of the information (treeper source no doubt) before it was taken offline but that he wanted to verify it with the real stuff. He presumes that the family had preserved a copy so he was hinting at the fact that if the court allowed it, he would go after them to get it which would be easier than having to battle Twitter and Facebook. He tried to give an example of why he needed it by saying something about how it has been said that DeeDee couldn’t go to the wake because she was so sick from hearing about being the last person to talk to TM before he died. We know why he wants to know, but he’s going to shoot himself in the foot by sounding like he’s chasing after rumors on twitter (and on the nuthouse, aka TCTH)

      O’Mara handed over what he says are GZ’s complete medical records from Alamonte family practice in an envelope to the judge, but he tried before doing to limit giving the state records of only 30 days before and 30 days after the shooting. However, when Nelson asked him to compare that with him wanting to get all of TM’s (and DeeDee’s) social media, he says he needed more like 6 months worth there to establish the “reputation”. BDLR countered that they needed much more than the 30 days of medical records to show GZ had minor injuries and didn’t need treatment.

      • O’Mara also talked about deposing some witness yesterday and he got some information that was so important to the case he wanted to file an emergency gag order on the witness or something like that not allowing anything including the prosecution to talk to the witness. Nelson wouldn’t allow it because O’Mara didn’t give her any grounds to issue the gag order. I didn’t hear who this witness was and all he said was that the information he got from the deposition has not been given before in any of the evidence released so far. I think they’re going to review it again at the next scheduled hearing sometime next week.

      • Thanks WSI. This certainly is a fascinating case, but most of what I saw in court today seemed like a sideshow.

        I don’t know that if I were a family member asked to provide my (dead) son’s facebook postings that I could comply. They may have never had the password, and instead only asked the company directly to scrub the account. Does anyone have more info on this aspect? Again, it seems like a sideshow unless Trayvon posted “tonight I plan on attacking a random stranger while talking to my girlfriend on the phone.”

        The additional medical records will speak to what pills GZ takes. I don’t see where that leads as far as making any conclusive points about guilt or innocence.

        Insofar as what may eventually become public info, the cell phone pic that ofc Wagner took of the body seems pertinent, as does the digital copy of w13/Jon’s iPhone pics of the body, flashlight/body and GZ’s head which we’ve already seen a reduced quality version of in color.

        • A sideshow indeed. O’Mara wants the easy way out of getting the Facebook account stuff from the family, but he’s going to end up looking like a big bully. It’s one thing for the prosecution or even the police to request that info. It’s another to have your son’s accused murderer to request it. It’s like saying OK, my client shot your son, now we need to see his diary. No way. What did they do in the old days when they had to establish someone’s character? Oh yeah, they called in character witnesses for a deposition. I’m sorry, but social media is the worse representation of any given person. It often captures people in their worse moments as they rant about something or it is a make believe world where the person becomes something they’re not in real life. How could any of it be relevant? BTW, it was amusing to see the dinosaurs in the courtroom today stumbling over the terminology of “tweets” and “tweeters”. They need to get some lessons from Hillary…..

          • crazy huh! So i guess if Trayvon smoked pot or spoke like a street thug amongst his friends then that would mean GZ had a right to follow this teen and shoot him. Look out every teen in the world, if you acted like a kid in your past on social media then you deserve what ever you get. That goes for you too, girls. Remember that picture you posted of yourself in your undies? Well if you ever get assaulted the slime ball that did it just needs to look into your past social media entries to prove you deserved it.

            I don’t think there will be anything too sinister in there though. The GZ fan base have used all sorts of programs to try and uncover evidence of Trayvons thuggery (not that they needed evidence to make up their minds) and only came up with “fight club”, a tweet about “swinging on a bus driver” and some fake pictures. I’m sure there will be a lot of chatter about his supposed drug dealing etc…..but how does it matter. Even if he was selling meth to the local kids when he was shot GZ had no right to be a vigilante. Unless Trayvon tweeted at the time that he was going to bash the guy that was following him i don’t see how it’s relevant. I get that they will be looking for proof that he is an agressive kid, but how does that matter when he was being followed at night by a creep through the entire neighbourhood…..he had a right to be aggressive under those circumstances.

            I didn’t see this latest hearing, i’m dissapointed the judge is allowing this info to be released, perhaps judge shopping has paid off.

            • oh i just read that the judge is just reviewing the social media at this stage, my bad again, i need to read through everything before making comments

            • No I don’t think there’s anything sinister in those accounts, but I’m afraid that what will be leaked out going forward will subconsciously affect the public’s/jury’s judgement. I agree, nothing I’ve seen so far even comes close to saying TM was capable of going crazy beserk and wanting to kill somebody just for looking at him. If anybody has the tendency to go beserk is GZ, let’s go dig up his bouncer co-worker again who said he was like Jekyll and Hyde….

              However, I also have a fear that anything that the family or friends might have said in the weeks following the shooting would be mistaken somehow as “evidence” that TM was the aggressor. Remember that the police told Tracy Martin Zimmerman’s account that TM decked him. Given that he had no other information to go on, whatever information he might have told family and friends in the early days would have been colored by the shooter’s account. His friends would not have thought that if TM had thrown the first punch that it would mean that he was the aggressor. To deal with their grief, they would have felt better thinking TM got off a few blows to the creep who chased him down, tried to detain him and then shot him. Since they are going to try and get DeeDees social media as well as TM’s, I just hope she didn’t participate in any discussions that could be taken out of context. Hypothetically, if one of TM’s friends said to DeeDee, hey I heard TM punched that creepy guy’s lights out. And if she responds, yeah, he deserved it. What would you think? She’s a crucial witness who heard the beginning of the scuffle, but would those words mean that she knew for a fact that TM punched GZ? No. She would be participating in a conversation (remember hypothetically). She didn’t know what happened after the phone shut off so if somebody told her that TM punched GZ at some point, she would have just been responding to that…. This is why twitter is so dangerous and should never be admissible IMHO.

      • I agree. I want several years of Zimmerman’s medical records and ALL of his school records AND all his work records.

        • Tit for tat as they say, huh? Sure why not. As long as the defense is flinging around insinuations full well knowing that they may never get an authenticated copy of TM/DeeDee’s social media, but are doing it just because the mere speculation about what’s in there could taint the jury pool. If they want TM’s middle school records, sure let’s go that far back with GZ. There was something back when GZ was a minor about him being a victim of a minor assault. Normally, we wouldn’t be blaming the victim of course, but GZ seems to have the habit of turning the tables around (i.e. filing an injunction against his ex, the day after she filed hers). He must have annoyed the heck out of somebody with his incessant teasing or complaining.

          But seriously, the medical records would be quite a bombshell if it shows GZ had a psychiatric history that made him ineligible to have a gun. That packet O’Mara handed over to the judge was only a complete record from the family practice in Florida. I doubt it contains info on his psychiatric history other than his ADHD. I had speculated awhile back that if he was ever an inpatient pscyhiatric patient as a minor, or received any sort of services for emotional disturbances, that he would be ineligible for a concealed weapons permit, UNLESS he produced a letter from a psychiatrist saying he was fit. Since he grew up in Virginia, it might have been easy for him to just hide that fact when he got his gun. His psychiatric/emotional history is very relevant in this case.

        • yes and it would be nice to have a few credible character witnesses as well instead of the pathetic “well i saw him once walking his dog” or “i never met him but saw the neighbourhood watch flyers” or “well a friend of a friend of a friend has the name glimmerman which rhymes with zimmerman”….ok ok maybe i paraphrased a bit there but it’s not far off.

  174. I heard second hand that the defense will get TM’s school records (to see if he has a history of violence). That must be part of what I missed.

    There was something about medical records and social media postings but I must have missed that too.

  176. Click to access Emergency%20Motion%20for%20Protective%20Order.pdf

    Somebody explain this to me. O’Mara made such a big deal about this witness, apparently Sargeant Santiago, that he deposed yesterday and was told of something not mentioned in the released evidence, etc, etc…. So here’s the emergency motion for a gag order. Basically it looks like to me that it’s just about how the assistant state attorney Carter along with Bill Lee and a couple of other officers didn’t want to charge Zimmerman, blah blah blah. But then got upset when Serino wanted manslaughter. O’Mara is saying that he was never aware of these meetings they had, etc. Then he charges that the state withheld exculpatory information by not listing a witness (which witness, Carter?). This must be a letdown to the nuthouse who thought he turned up some amazing evidence. Turns out it’s just mudslinging politics that has nothing to do with the shooting itself. GZ is still toast.

    BTW, GZ did himself no favors by looking all zoned out today in the hearing. His excessive blinking could be dry contacts, but it kinda reminded me of another high profile defendent who showed up in court with orange hair and looking all drugged out.

    • That motion is a joke. It’s as if the mere fact that an investigation existed is somehow supposed to exonerate the defendant or something. As for any opinion of information being withheld from the defense, heck, the chief of police was holding press conferences about how George was beyond suspicion…

      Stop the presses: “they held meetings!”

      I’m with you, WSI – I don’t get what this is about.

  177. All that is missing are the peanuts. (We’re all full on clowns, thanks.) O’mara is trying to get from the family of the slain child and from the prosecution what he needs to be asking Facebook and ABC News for. Of course, none of these parties has zero obligation to share what is theirs with him, but even if they did the defense will not benefit by them. Perhaps he hopes to play the martyr and say “gee, if only we had gotten Trayvon’s tweets, my client would have been found innocent.”

    What galls me is that the audio of Dee Dee’s conversation with Crump is indeed of poor quality, but not so poor that you can’t hear her tell him that she heard Trayon talking about being followed by a moving vehicle down the street just before he ran away. How obtaining this audio in better fidelity is supposed to aid the defense is beyond me.

    I feel like the general public, and possibly even the prosecution is missing this enormously important puzzle piece. Dee Dee spoke to Crump/ABC News about this matter and then later BDLR and the prosecution’s investigators failed to ask her about it, thus showing to me that they never listened closely enough to the first tape, nor were they at the time considering the possibility that GZ could be proven have chased the teen with his car down TTL. I also don’t think the prosecution is doing anything to develop the evidence that is in the clubhouse videos, either.

  178. Here’s the state’s response to O’Mara’s complaints about not getting discovery in time. Basically, they said it’s ironic that the defense has also delayed the process by cancelling a couple of depositions that the state has set up, and to this date, they’ve only provided two bail bondsmen as defense witnesses so they’ve failed to provide reciprocal discovery themselves. Interestingly, the state also said that both sides had agreed to the providing of evidence in stages so that each side would have time to review and respond to what was being released. Anyway, it’s a good read. Summary, STOP WHINING!

    Click to access State’s%20Response%20to%20Defendant’s%20Motion%2010%2018%2012.pdf

    • Thanks for the link. I agree the basic message is “stop whining, and move the case towards trial already. ”

      There is some back and forth going on about W9 audio, and it appears that there are two issues here, one regarding W9 as mentioned in these papers, and the other about the Crump/ABC News audio of Dee Dee, not mentioned here but brought up by defense attn’y West elsewhere.

      It’s not clear but it seems to be something like this: one audio file with W9 was unplayable or of poor quality, and that was simply a tech issue that has been resolved.

      There’s an issue about Trayvon’s phone mentioned that is not clear to me, but seems important to some degree. I assume it’s about what is possible to retrieve from it or not. Does anyone here understand what’s going on there?

      • Here you go, have a tub of peanuts for the show….

        First with W9, O’Mara thought there was an unplayable 3rd recording but Judge Nelson gave him in court the two CDs she had that were given to Lester. It seemed to have been resolved. I think it just had to do with the part where W9 alleged sexual abuse, and may have been redacted on some copies while they were arguing whether it should be released. It had already been released so I don’t think there’s anything more to that.

        You’re right DeeDee’s audio was not addressed in this state’s response, but the Judge had basically said to West at the hearing, you’ll get your chance to depose Crump on that, zip it for now. I just wonder why O’Mara didn’t just call up Crump and asked him about it before? Is the defense not allowed to contact the family’s lawyer regarding evidence he provided? I know they can’t contact the family themselves. Crump didn’t seem to have a problem with cooperating on this issue. The remaining issue is still with ABC’s copy, and for that, O’Mara is going to have to go after it himself, I would think.

        Now TM’s phone is a whole can of worms that the treepers have been sniffing for months (among other things they must be sniffing over there). You may know this but for those just tuning in, they (TCTH) had been claiming that the phone recovered from the scene of the shooting was not TM’s or that he had a 2nd phone or that he wasn’t talking on the phone when DeeDee said she heard the start of the fight. Many crazy theories abound over there, but their favorite term is “ping logs”. That is, they want to get the cell phone tower records to show that TM’s phone was or was not in Sanford because they think that TM’s phone was actually in Miami and the time and the phone records which just HAPPENED to show the last phone call dropping just before TM’s shooting was a coincidence of some other conversation, or that it was completely fabricated by Crump. And get this, they theorize that DeeDee the girlfriend doesn’t exist and that there were two DeeDees, one who gave the unintelligible Crump interview and another who gave the BDLR interview. Yeah crazy.

        So hinting at wanting to know if the phone was really TM’s phone, the defense requested accounts of phones in TM’s name (remember the phone logs released said it was in Tracy’s name) and in DeeDee’s name to try and match up things. First, the defense made it seem like the prosecution was hiding information but the response was that the analysis done by Benton didn’t turn up anything pertinent, other than “identifying data and photos of the outside of the phone” (defense has it now) and that the MOST pertinent information was provided as phone logs from the family/phone company way back when. The fact that they say “identifying data” to me settles the issue of whether the phone belonged to TM. Sure if TM had another phone left in Miami, so what? He was carrying a phone his dad gave him, it wasn’t anybody else’s phone. It would be a huge embarrassment to the defense if the public knew that O’Mara was chasing a treeper theory. Actually, the treeper leader himself had posted concerns way back when O’Mara responded to an email from a treeper poster saying that he might be interested in an online chat with them, just concerned about security about the communications. He has since denied having anymore contact with the treepers directly, but it doesn’t mean his office doesn’t read the blog, and GZ’s family members have been further brainwashed by the site. So any wild ideas they get from there goes right back to O’Mara.

        • Where in the world did the silly idea that it isn’t Trayvon’s phone come from anyway? If you tell me some Treeper made it up based on nothing, and the defense is running with that I’m not going to be surprised but I am curious if there is ANYTHING more beyond that.

          And yes, I think we can now safely say that the chain of evidence for the Crump/ ABC News interview w Dee Dee is clear. There was a call on speakerphone and two recodings were made at the same time. Crump had his copy made on his cell phone (poor quality) and ABC recorded the speakerphone audio themselves, obviously with pro equipment and better fidelity. Crump gave his copy to the FBI/DoJ (feds) and the feds shared it with FDLE and the prosecution. ABC kept their copy, used snippets for a broadcast and that’s that. O’Mara knew enough to look for a better copy but he’s looking in the wrong place.

          O’Mara is going to have to try to subpoena ABC News if he wants their copy. I tend to think that in this case they may comply, given the overall circumstances. Too bad what’s on that audio won’t be of any help to them, since it contains Dee Dee telling how she heard Trayvon describe being followed by a moving car with a creepy guy in it. I wonder why he even wants it in the first place. He’s better off leaving as a “sleeping dog,” as in the kind you let lie. I’m going to laugh my head off if and when the public hears that tape with enough audio fidelity to get it.

          What worries me is the idea that the prosecution hasn’t listened closely to the original interview, and instead are relying on the second, which they conducted themselves but failed to ask Dee Dee directly about the car-to-pedestrian chase aspect. It’s a big part of what they could be using to build a case with and they might not even be aware of it.

          • It’s all Treeper logic. They say the phone isn’t his because it wasn’t listed in evidence as his property. It was claimed it was a little girl’s phone that was either dropped or that TM stole; this comes from the heart sticker because only a little girl would have that, but not a 17 year old male. Since SPD didn’t find the phone of value, they believe the call never took place. Everyone is on some big grand scheme to frame poor wittle George. I think the two DeeDee’s comes from the fact they were wrong about the girl they said was DeeDee, so instead of them being wrong, it must be that there was two.

            O’Mara seems to get all his talking points from TCTH. Then they get all over excited when he uses their talking points since that must mean there is validity to them. Grasping for straws and dangling shiny objects is all I’ve seen from the defense, IMO.

            • Oh, the call couldn’t have taken place because the phone was found not working. TM must have hung up because phone’s just don’t hang up. They think there are like 4 phones floating around. It’s all based on faulty logic and conspiracy, though.

            • @QETNO, I can already see you fuming over this one….you know what other rumor crazy OG lady is starting now???? I can’t even bring myself to write what she’s saying here, so just go to her comments/activity page, read like the 3rd comment down about a baseball game and then just load one more page and read like the 20th comment down. http://disqus.com/OdessaGirl/

            • @WSI

              What am I missing? The thing about a brother running around or the thing about them all knowing each other and this is just one big, bad, conspiracy trying to frame GZ. Those were the comments I saw.

            • @Qetno, the comment about the brother in quotation marks. You can understand more of the context if you click on the article to go to the comments. That’s something treepers had not been saying so this is something new she’s putting forth, and I wouldn’t want to fan that fire anymore than that. Was just mentioning it because I know how much you “love” what OG lady says. But a related note is that O’Mara is going after the addresses of TM’s family members to understand the nature of his environment so to speak. Treepers were saying for a long time now that he was not living with his mom and was crashing with a cousin, etc. That means nothing of course, but they want to have a smear campaign of painting TM out to be an unsupervised teenager from a broken home turned thug.

            • “O’Mara seems to get all his talking points from TCTH. Then they get all over excited when he uses their talking points since that must mean there is validity to them. Grasping for straws and dangling shiny objects is all I’ve seen from the defense, IMO.”

              Sounds like Mitt Romney.

          • @Willis, like the rest of the bungled investigation, it doesn’t surprise me that the SPD didn’t fiddle much with the phone. They had the shooter, they identified the victim the next day. They didn’t know particularly that he was on the phone at the time of the confrontration. And the most that they were interested in was if TM had taken a video or audio recording. So they probably identified the phone number and confirmed that it was Tracy’s Martin’s account, pulled some files off the sim card but couldn’t get to the phone logs without a passcode. They didn’t try harder to get an expert to “crack” it because the family then came forward with the logs. End of story. The prosecution wouldn’t be stupid enough to withhold anything of importance from the phone. If they found goofy pictures of TM and his friends, that’s not “evidence” they need to turn over.

            OK, now how did the treepers come up with their crazy story about the phone? It all started with a woman who’s a prolific poster over at Click Orlando. I’ve dubbed her the “crazy OG lady”. She is currently the top commenter at Click Orlando with over 4000 comments after they kicked off her buddies who used to make some of the most outrageous and racist comments there (she also posts over at the nuthouse under a different name). She had revealed enough about herself that I’ve concluded she’s GZ’s best buddy’s wife’s step mother-in-law. She started all these rumors about the phone with her supposed “insider” information, but really what she knows is nothing but what OTHERS have speculated. LIke QETNO said (Hey there!), they stared at the phone with the heart sticker and said it belonged to a little girl…..yeah who happened to have lost her phone right next to TM’s dead body. OK….. Then they wondered why more was not done to pull off the phone logs from the phone until the family provided it 3 weeks after the shooting. Mind you for those 2-3 weeks, Bill Lee was doing all he can to NOT charge GZ. Anyway, so then their imaginations ran wild in their little minds about the fabrication of the logs and DeeDee, etc, that I mentioned before. They had speculated somehow that the phone TM was on or DeeDee’s phone or both were prepaid throwaway phones so anybody could have been using them….Aside from that, their “research” into who deedee was narrowed it down to 3 of TM’s friends, so they were cyber stalking these poor girls to figure out who they were and what they were doing in the aftermath of the shooting.

            Nope, no logic at all. But it helps to understand where O’Mara is coming from. His case now isn’t about how wonder GZ is (given he’s only been able to come up with 2 bail bondsmen as witnesses? What, can’t they get his priest and his cub scout leader to testify???), it’s about how bad they can make TM look.

      • The phone with the heart sticker belongs to a little girl who lost it. Trayvon’s own phone was left behind in Miami.

        This “information” came 3 or 4 MONTHS ago from Odessagirl, the Osterman relative (MIL?) who’s gone very quiet since the MO book excerpts came out in Treehouse. It’s the first thing that drew my attention to her.

        Treepers have only recently picked up on this line of thinking. They themselves have added the idea that TM also had a burn phone for taking drug orders on. So I guess they want ping logs for both phones.

        • @wassointersting I think that you are correct and there is zero factual information released to the public to suggest that the phone is anything but Trayvon’s phone that his dad carried on his plan.

          This OdessaGirl has zero inside info from the SPD. She did seem to know some things she would have got from the Ostermans, but they don’t know jack about Trayvon’s phone, unless it via hacking social media which they have not claimed.

          This probably all boils down to the heart shaped sticker and fertile imaginations.

  179. Something that has bothered me for awhile was GZ’s account of where he saw TM standing on the sidewalk as he was walking back to his truck (see the reenactment). OK the first time he “walks” across the T, let’s assume TM was out of sight behind a divider between the houses. But think about how wide that area is between the townhomes, it’s not a small dark alley. Witness 18 could see at least as far down as where TM’s body ended up without shining a long range flashlight down there. TM had light colored pants and white reflective shoes on. Given that, with GZ walking back towards his truck and just two or three steps past where the sidewalks meet, isn’t it a physical impossibility that he could not have seen TM approaching from anywhere?

    • He saw him, but forgot immediately because of his ADHD. He was checking out silhouettes of W3 and W17 against their shades. He was looking up at the stars, because even they present no limits for his ambitions. He has an astigmatism with a nasty blind spot.

      Oh, yeah, and Trayvon wasn’t smiling.

    • Of course the story told by GZ is a false narrative. It’s provable in court to a jury that his account of movements from clubhouse to cut thru, all the way up until “have them call me” is a fasle account.

      What comes after that is not as easily refuted, but the pattern is established of a murder suspect lying extensively to investigators all the way up to a very short time before a fatal shooting under very clouded and suspicious circumstances.

      So much of GZ’s account is openly contradictory of its’ own self that one can’t put any stock into what he’s saying about the fight, period. Many things are possible, what GZ claims happened is not possible, for the very reason that he’s made numerous irreconcilable contradictory claims.

      What you say about GZ passing TM at the T intersection is right – it’s highly unlikely and sounds like a bullsh*t story. But arguing about light levels or sight lines is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt really. But a jury can and may hear that argument and be motivated to consider the pattern of lies that lead up to it and decide for themselves if GZ is overall telling the truth or not.

  180. RZ Senior wants “a thorough investigation to determine if George’s civil rights or right to due process were violated,” calling this case a “malicious prosecution of [their] son”.
    http://robertandgladys.com/view-updates/
    Let’s see, they didn’t throw him in jail right away. When he was arrested, they took his word for it he had no money and let him out on a low bond WITH HIS GUN PERMIT. The 2nd arrest was his own doing. Despite lying through his family’s teeth, they let him out again. He’s been able to change judges every time he whines, and now they’re letting him dig into the personal life of the victim. Sure he might have gotten away with it otherwise, but if they eventually arrested him without the media attention, he’d be stuck with Sonner or some other incompetent pro bono lawyer. Due process??? I’d say he’s been getting due process and then some.

    • Well… If he feels that way, he’s certainly entitle to hire a lawyer and go into court to try and prove his claims. Other wise they’re just the opinions of someone on the sidelines. In fact, he can even approach one of the many organizations that exist to see that justice is done, if they believe he has a point, they’ll get behind him and provide him with a lawyer to seek to prevent a travesty. Otherwise he needs to simply shut up and watch the wheels of justice turn.

    • I’m wondering when they start to come up with some reason for why he didn’t even actually shoot Trayvon. It was someone else, he was just zonked out on his meds at the time to imagined it was him, that’s why he admitted to it.

    • thanks WSI. This is so infuriating.

      “Most information presented as ‘fact’ by the media and certain attorneys will be shown as completely false.

      Everyone involved seems to have an agenda. Politics, notoriety, and primarily financial gain have driven this entire case.

      If justice should ever prevail, an investigation by the Justice Department should be conducted. There has already been an inordinate amount of Justice Department resources used in an attempt to prove George had some racial motivation for his actions. I would like to see a thorough investigation to determine if George’s civil rights or right to due process were violated. That may be the only way this case is shown for what it truly is – a malicious prosecution of our son.”
      What about the completely false statements given by their son, impossible stories, contradictory statements, blatent lies…all from their sons own mouth.

      Financial gain? Who is gaining financially aart from the usual suspects of the media and lawyers….oh that is right, their son and family have managed to gain hundreds of thousands of dollars in blood money.

      You want justice, just not for the victim right?

      What about Trayvon Martins civil rights, why did his rights get taken away by your son, such as the right to exist….. because that is all he was doing, and apparently George Zimmerman decided Trayvon was existing in a manner he found to be suspicious. Don’t talk about rights unless you are going to afford the VICTIM those same rights.

      Gee, is it any wonder GZ behaves like an entitled prat with the authority to tell people where and when they should walk when you hear this shit from his father…the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree it seems.

      • i can’t seem to start a new post, i can only reply to previous posts, not sure why.

        Where are you NLME? I hope you didin’t walk in the rain in Florida cause we know what happens to peeps that do that.

        Would be great to have a post about the US election. I love Obama, i think he brought back respect to America as far as the rest of the world is concerned…Mighty America had lost it’s sheen, it looked like it was run by Fox News-a-like bullies and i really think the rest of the world sighed with relief when Obama was elected. I feel nervous and i’m not even in the states.

      • OK Jo, take a chill pill before you read this one then. Here’s a message of thanks from RZ Sr. to the treepers for all of their fine work earlier this month. Now is there any doubt how O’Mara is getting his bright ideas if not via this trinity of the father (RZ Sr.), Son (RZ, Jr.) and the unholy nuthouse?
        http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/10/12/message-of-thanks-from-robert-zimmerman-sr/

        Once again I would like to sincerely express my appreciation for the contributions made by each of you.
        As you may imagine, this is an extremely sad, confusing, and traumatic time for George and his entire family. As you are aware, any actions taken by our family will certainly be distorted, criticized, and misrepresented. Inaction will similarly be criticized by many.
        Our primary focus continues to be that justice prevail.
        I am not an attorney and not familiar with Florida’s judicial system. However, I was a Magistrate for over eight years for the Supreme Court of Virginia. I have presided over approximately 30,000 probable cause hearings, determining if individuals should be charged with criminal offenses. Absolutely nothing I have seen in my son’s case can lead me, or any reasonable person, to believe he committed any crime whatsoever.
        I very much look forward to the day George will again be a free man. However, I’m also looking forward to many involved being held fully accountable for their egregious, malicious, and I believe illegal, conduct. That includes many.
        Again, thank you for your support and encouragement. Please just keep the faith.
        Sincerely,
        Robert Zimmerman

        • deep fucking breaths…deeeeeep fucking breaths……

          robert, had your son been the one that was followed and shot, would your eight years and thirty thousand cases of experience change the way you view this case. Your experience means nothing when your bias is stenching up the room.

          Change the roles of the people concerned, how innocent is the shooter now?

  181. Haven’t heard anybody talk about Shellie’s perjury case. It just seems like her court dates gets linked to GZ’s court dates.
    http://seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001792A
    On the same day as GZ’s hearing last week, the state entered a “STATE’S DISCOVERY EXHIBIT AND DEMAND FOR DEFENDANT’S DISCOVERY EXHIBIT” and her next docket sounding is on 12/12/12, the same day as GZ’s next docket sounding. http://www.seminoleclerk.org/CriminalDocket/case_detail.jsp?CaseNo=592012CF001083A

    So we know all the goods the state has on her perjury charge, and they’re “demanding” her to show what she’s got. Guess her lawyer hasn’t been able to come up with anything but “ignorance” which is no defense. Is she simply going to parse semantics? “Well, yeah, I moved some money around, but they asked me how much money came from the website and I said ‘Current, I do not know’. That’s absolutely true, I didn’t know to the PENNY how much came from the website, cuz you know I’m worse at math than my husband. Didn’t you see his school transcripts? A hundred dollars, a hundred thousand dollars, looks the same to me, just a couple of zeros right?”

    • Regarding Shellie and all the issues her perjury presents to the prosecution of GZ:

      If the state wants to pressure Shellie Zimmerman into testifying against her husband they need for her case to come up for trial before his. It seems likely that this will occur, but we can’t know if she will take a deal or not. If they pushed this hard, she might be facing real time behind bars, who knows? Is this something she’s ready to face, possibly knowing it may be for nothing?

      The prosecution team that is going after her COULD spill the beans to her and demonstrate to her that George is trapped in lies and is going down without fully revealing their trial strategy against him, but this presupposes that she’s intelligent enough to follow the deductive reasoning that goes with it. A tall order. More likely they would just tell her lawyer she’s a fool for not taking a deal in exchange for giving a deposition or something like that.

      The difficult part is, I don’t think she knows anything about the killing except the lies she’s been fed by her husband. A long time ago, I thought maybe GZ had let some others into his “circle of lies.” As more information trickles out, including Mark Osterman’s “book,” my hunch is that George hasn’t fully confided in anyone what truly happened that night. IMO it’s clear he told his father and brother a false narrative, (the one they related to the press, that insists George fell to the ground where he was first hit, which is either true but in the wrong place, or false altogether) and Osterman relates yet another version of what George may have said. Together, these accounts along with the contradictory stories GZ told SPD investigators (and Sean Hannity, and his original “legal advisors,” etc) paint a picture of a lone guilty party scrambling for a plausible alibi, but unable to confide in anyone fully.

      Getting back to Shellie – I don’t think her perjury case matters a lot since she may not be able to help the prosecution much regarding what happened in the “missing minutes,” but at the same time she does know things material to the case – namely, the location, orientation and circumstances of the Honda Ridgeline and it’s movements. If they can force her into admitting the truth about the car, it may have a strong bearing on the case. Hard to tell if she’s willing to make a deal like that or not. Time will tell.

      Shellie may suspect he is lying, we don’t know. The father seems locked into a state of denial, and the brother thinks he’s helping. Osterman appears to be trying to help both his friend and himself, but none of these people are the brightest crayon in the box.

      Shellie is guilty of a crime, however and she needs to pay the consequences for deceiving the court. It’s important to keep in mind that her actions helped GZ set up a situation that, but for the electronic monitoring device, GZ would have left jail with the means, motive and opportunity to flee justice with a good head start and six figures in cash, and relatives overseas.

      Side issues to all this include whether or not the father knew about the hidden money and hidden passport, since it’s presenting a situation where one of the following is true: either GZ lies to his own father about issues like money and hidden passports, or else his father, a former officer of a court was in on this conspiracy on some level. The same goes for the brother in law and sister who aided in the pay pal and money moving scheme. Did they know about the passport or not? They seem to be out of reach of prosecution, but we dont know for certain. Shellie could admit facts that draw them into a criminal conspiracy charge eventually as her case moves forward.

      • Willis said “my hunch is that George hasn’t fully confided in anyone what truly happened that night.”

        I agree. I had previously thought also that MO had worked on a script with GZ for the re-enactment but I agree now that GZ probably spun the whole thing himself starting with the first written police statement, which MO could not have influenced. (What MO might have gotten wrong or tried to rationalize in writing his book is a whole nother story). We see how elements of GZ’s story changed until he was sat down a couple days after the shooting with Serino and Singleton to listen to the 911 call and them walking him through the call. That was when he realized his timing was off but couldn’t back away from what he previously said. I am itching to see him on the witness stand.

    • She lied about the money she did know about. The money she transferred from the paypal account into her account and GZ’s.

  182. So you guys may or may not have heard yesterday that O’Mara sent an email to a supporter asking help with him prep for his next hearing. What? Isn’t he paying his interns anymore to “scour the web”? Is he getting help from people with no legal backgrounds? Oy vay. I don’t know who Carole Green is, but Annette Elaine Kelly has been featured before in a miamiherald article as a facebook user from Ontario and a monthly donor to the GZ defense fund. O’Mara quickly put the email on his own website once he found it the email was circulated, just to say, ‘Oh yeah, that was me, no biggie!”

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/11/2794656_p3/trayvon-martins-mother-got-about.html

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-fights-gag-order-20121023,0,7455837.story

    http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/press-releases/56-zimmerman-defense-invites-public-scrutiny-of-media-policy

    “Annette Elaine Kelly CONFIDENTIAL – Carole Green go [sic] this email from the legal team. Please send anything you think will help. – All this week we’ll be preparing to defend ourselves against the State’s renewed motion for a Gag Order. We’re confident that everything we’ve posted, and everything we’ve said publicly is proper and well within our rights, but we know that on Friday, the State is likely to find the most questionable thing Mark’s said and present it to the Court. I’d like to ask if you and other supporters could help us scour the web and, strange as it may sound, send us links to the most potentially questionable statements we have made during this process. Again, we’re confident ALL our statements are easily defendable, we just want to know what we’re likely to have thrown back at us. Let me know if you think you can rally some people to help. They can send links to this address: gzmediamail@gmail.com.”

    • Well I am going out on a limb, I think a gag order is needed. There is no doubt with some and other have question O’Mara use the social media. Some in the legal field have referred it to “poisoning the well”. I also say that the woman in “TalkLeft” had a few positive comments about a gag afte Osterman book and Dr. Phil.

  184. Getting the cart before the horse department: the prosecution filed for a gag order? When did this happen and does anyone have a link?

    The prosecution tried this with the last judge, and didn’t get far since it’s a sunshine law state and the media fought the order. What is frustrating is that with a new judge they get another bite at the same apple. I can sympathise with the prosecution over the things the defense is doing, but I don’t think a gag order is the remedy. The remedy is a fair trial, and a carefully selected jury.

  185. O’Mara believes the cops testimony will help his case:

    http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-defense-witness-list-sanford-police-department-officials-details

    Sure. They will help. Help send him to prison.

    Let’s see… There’s at least one witnesses who saw/heard a LEO mouth self-defense on the scene. We have more than one witness that believed LE tried to lead or change witness testimony. We have witnesses saying LE ignored them. LE allowed GZ’s vehicle to be moved from the scene. Did LE do a thorough canvass? NO. The shooter’s friend was allowed on scene and allowed to come along to the SPD. MO claims an officer at the scene basically informed that they already knew what happened. GZ has contact with people within the SPD. MO is former LE who calls the former Chief “Billy.” Chief called shooter squeaky clean then tried to smear the dead kid’s name to “prove” it was self-defense. Do I need to go on?

    Yeah, those cops won’t CYA at all. Of course they all thought GZ shouldn’t be charged…DUH, they pretty much had it decided on scene.

    • I believe that MO is wanting are meeting that were held about the case in which Lee and others as well as the DA Carter (I believe his name is) meet to discuss the case and that at these meeting they all agreed there was no evidence that GZ commited a crime. There is appreantly lots of stories about what was going on at the Sanford PD, all conflicting. The new Chief recently in a news article blamed a Pubic Information Sergeant for all of it.

      I would myself like to know what exactly did the PD think. There are rumor of RZ trying to influence the case. I think he has in past, in my experience I never heard of anyone, going to Anger Management for hitting a Police Officer. Also remember Osterman was under Lee at the Sheriffs Department. This could all back fire on MO.

      • We can guess but we just don’t know the extent of anyone’s “influence” on the case right now. Backfiring is a good assumption, cuz it could get ugly if O’Mara want to open that can of worms.

        Just FYI, John, we’ve been using “MO” for Mark Osterman and “MOM” for Mark O’Mara so people don’t get them confused.

  186. @whonose tchouipi Amsterdam, et al. How do we move forward on thus video idea? Are there any more little animations I can do? What was the verdict on what I did so far? I figured they could appear in one of the squares where nothing happens to help illustrate what’s going on.

    I’m still in favor of a web article with video highlights over a VoiceOver heavy long vidoe but whatever the consensus is would be fine by me.

    Tchoupi started a text that seems good to eme for either format. Is there more? Do you want someone else to work on it? How can we move this ball down the field?

  187. Oh my goodness! I just read the summary of Dale Gilbreath’s interview with the school teacher. Did anyone else notice how she described GZ as being dressed: with a short-sleved shirt on! Not a jacket, a short-sleeved shirt! Didn’t another witness say that a man with a white shirt was on top? GZ’s tee shirt was a light grey. Why have I not read anything about this before???? Pg. 16 of 284:

    • Yep, seen it before. Some of the guys think this is because of the pattern of GZ’s jacket. With the orange and grey “patches” in certain kinds of light one colour doesn’t show up, creating a quite different impression of what the clothing is.

      Thing is, if he had the jacket off at the time of the shooting, he’d only have had a few seconds to get it back on again, after walking back to the T. He had it on in the iphone pic of his head.

      Also people are saying “white” to mean “light-coloured” as in the dark they’d not see the actual colour, just how light or dark it is.

      In the “white on top” evidence, same thing again, the outer clothing could and would ride up in a wrestling match, showing a fair bit of the undershirt. Trayvon’s under shirt was light, too, in fact lighter than GZ’s.

      Either way, there is zero evidence of a third party being involved.

    • I agree with aussie about her seeing GZ’s shirt against the dark jacket that makes it look like a short sleeved shirt. But wondering if she made that conclusion while he was over by the body or later when he was closer to the T. Also interesting were her description of the “side to side” movement of the two wrestling on the ground and her hearing “normal” helps and “horrifying” helps. Totally points to both of them screaming, and we can all bet the the “normal” helps came from GZ trying to get help in detaining TM (just listen to his short weak “helps” in his voice exemplar) and the “horrifying” helps were from TM screaming for his life.

  188. Anybody watch the hearing yesterday about the state’s motion for a gag order on both parties? O’Mara was SOOOO obviously reading from a script that he didn’t write when he was arguing the involvement of Mr. Crump, Ms. Jackson, etc. as part of the reason he had to go on a public defense of his client in the media. He often said just “Crump” instead of Mr. Crump, which sounded so disrespectful in the court too. Just for those statements, he sounded exactly like a treeper, and then he fell back into his usual “nice” O’Mara mannerisms once he was arguing on actual legal matters. Judge Nelson will make her ruling on monday.

    • I watched most of the hearing; I tuned in a little late. Apparently, I only missed O’Mara, West, and Zimmerman arriving late.

      The argument came across as a well rehearsed speech written by participants of pro-GZ sites and performed by MO’M.

      It is interesting O’Mara states that those who speak out for GZ are not speaking on behalf of the defense, but that those who speak out for TM and the family are speaking on behalf of the state. Hm, that doesn’t quite work, O’Mara. I do think O’Mara crosses the line of what is proper. I’m not sure JDN will issue a gag order, though. I think she will be more likely to issue a stern warning.

      My favorite part was actually Don West trying to rehash an issue that was already decided on during the previous hearing. JDN wasn’t having that.

      She declined the defense’s emergency motion regarding the SPD depositions.

    • Also, anyone wanna bet on how long JDN lasts? GZ supporters are already complaining about her.

      • GZ supporters are fickle. They HATED O’Mara and now they’re in love with him. They liked Judge Nelson initially, but they can’t boot her for no reason. I think she’s in it for the long haul. She’s organized and has this “I may look like a grandmother but don’t you even THINK of pulling that cr@p in my courtroom” attitude as she smiles at the lawyers, making them look foolish for trying any shenanigans like the emergency gag order.

        • I laughed so hard when she said something like “you can do that yourself” or “you can get that yourself.” I definitely don’t think she’ll be having any shenanigans.

          • Wonder who donated GZ’s shiny new suit? Doesn’t quite look so indigent now does he?

            • @WSI
              The article you posted, had more information in there that was pointed out to me by another person on another blog. I will copy an excerpt and I think it might help Tchopi with timing issues if any…..
              Here goes…

              CRUMP: The whole time when he went to store, when he came back from
              store. All day, they talk. When you look at the cell phone records that
              blows Zimmerman`s testimony out of the water. Because she says and it`s so
              logical when she tells the story. He was walking home from that 7-eleven,
              and it started raining. He ran into the complex, had to hit the code, got
              into the gate, went to the first building he saw to get out of the rain.
              Stood there, let the rain subside, then he starts that walking back. She
              calls him back because he got off when it was raining.

            • @Loree, yes I had noted the comments made by Mr. Crump. I’m just wondering how much of it he got straight from DeeDee and how much was an assumption on his part, such as the thing about TM hitting the key code to get in the front gate. It would be really something if she knew specifically about him going through the gate, but then that would have been a huge gaaffe on the part of the prosecutor not to have asked her about that, as with his not asking her to elaborate on the slow car chase. If this weren’t such a tragedy it would be almost comical imagining TM slowing down in the rain whipping his head around trying to see who this crazy creepy guy was looking at, only to have the crazy creepy guy think he was suspicious for acting cautiously and then for running away from him.

  189. In this MSNBC show way back in March, JEFFREY WEINER from THE ORLANDO SENTINEL said:
    “In 2003, he (George Zimmerman) followed someone out of an Albertson`s parking lot who he had seen shoplifting a television. He reported the incident to the sheriff`s office and some of the county and followed the person until a deputy could arrive to arrest that person. The following year, he did the same with someone he said has spit on his car and that person was ultimately not arrested.”
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46823223/ns/msnbc-politicsnation/t/politicsnation-wednesday-march/#.UI18J8XR5IG

    This is the first time I’ve found the news source to this story. So he followed a shoplifter and called the cops on somebody for spitting on his car. I had given him the benefit of the doubt before when I said that he wouldn’t have gotten out of the car had he not had the gun. However, I’m assuming he didn’t have a gun back in 2003, so his tendency to play cop can’t be attributed to just the “rash” of thefts/burglaries at the Retreat. He got the “high” of getting a shoplifter arrested back in 2003, and was never able to get another one since. Wonder if there’s a name for this addiction. Copoholic?

    • LOL. Starting to think I love you…or at the very least…like you a whole lot. 😛

    • I search for articles like this for files, thank you so much for posting.

      Thanks
      Loree

      PS i will repost and give credit to you.

      • Crump also says this:

        CRUMP: And then he says I think this dude is following me. And he
        says I really think he is following me. He`s kind a walk slow to see if he
        is following him, and then she says you should run home. And that`s when
        Trayvon was and then you hear Zimmerman on the 911 tape saying “he is
        running now” and she is listening to Trayvon gives her a play by play. And
        the most telling thing, reverend Sharpton, is her last call, she calls at
        6:54 and they talk for a minute. Then at 7:12 she calls and the police,
        they stone records, get there at 7:17. And when they get there, Trayvon
        Martin has been shot and is dead on the ground. Her call on the phone
        records lasted four minutes. She heard the first part of the altercation.
        She said Trayvon turned around and said “why are you following me?” and the
        voice said “why are you in here? What are you doing around here?”

  190. Note to everyone, but especially willisnewton and tchoupi:

    I have not given up on the sec-cam video. I’ve done some more work on it, but still along way to go. Life in general is just going really slow right now. I will get to it sooner or later. Feel free to bug me, guilt trip me, whatever, to help move the process along.

    The winds from Frankenstorm are really starting to pick up now, though the latest projection shows the storm path going around us rather than through us. Very spooky outside though…

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