Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Forum #2

I’ve recently closed the comments on Forum #1 found here. Comments for this posting will remain open until Forum #3 is created.

17 unarmed trayvon martin

P.S. I have, and will continue to be, noticeably absent as I’ve gone through basically every life change but divorce and death over the past 6 months. My bad…

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681 thoughts on “Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman Forum #2

  1. Thank you so much for the new thread NLME! Well, I for one am glad to know that you’re not dead or divorced. I wish you the best with anything else you’re dealing with in life. We’ll hold down the fort for you here…..

  2. “I have, and will continue to be, noticeably absent as I’ve gone through basically every life change but divorce and death over the past 6 months. My bad…”


    : – )

    Happy late New Year and take care of yourself first.


  3. “No matter where you are, no matter how difficult things might appear to be, you are always being moved toward magnificence. Always.”

    Daily Teachings of the Secret.

  4. Very happy to hear from you. Question for everyone: Are you aware that “Anonymous” has taken an interest in the case and has even responded to one of Junior’s rants? What do you think about this group? Should the Z camp be concerned?

        • Thanks Loree! Where have I been huh? Don’t know how I feel about them or what their role in this case should be….the masks just weird me out.

          • @WSI

            I think right now, as I understand it, Bobby Jr, is on their radar. Not GZ. I think his constant media and Twitter presence of spewing non-truths got their panties in a bunch. 🙂 If they take on this case per se, I think they will be smart enough to get information regarding the outsiders, meaning Wolfinger (possible data proof of meeting at the crime scene), Daddy Zim’s connections, Maybe GZ possible youth records, stuff like that. I don’t think they will f88k up the state’s case. At least I hope not. 🙂

            • @debbieelw

              Considering that we are more then ever dependent on computers, these machines can be used for good and bad. Look at child pornorgraphy. The amount of child trafficking, porn, etc has gotten way easier to do because of computers. These guys actually have the know how to track and most times put people in jail for their works. There is a need to have groups like this who can handle this without the constraints of what law enforcement agencies have. It would take months maybe years for a goverment agency to handle such cases, versus what they can do in a couple of weeks. I know they like to messed with goverment agencies as well, keeps them honest ? Or just plain having fun with them because they can.

            • Despite what Jr says or does, he’s still just a family member of the defendant and nothing more. Especially since he was “estranged” until this case, his motives are far beyond just trying to protect his beloved little bro. He is best ignored, and I think MSM has largely ignored him by now. Attacking him is just stoking a fire that’s just about died out. Now as far as Daddy’s connections and Wolfinger, there may be something there but I view that as largely separate from GZ’s case, perhaps a springboard into what’s wrong with the criminal justice system in general. I absolutely agree and hope that they (Anonymous) don’t mess up the state’s case against GZ. We really don’t need any more excuses for the defense to say they can’t get a fair trial for their defendant.

            • Agreed on all points. It took many days to actually get an arrest. We really don’t need any flags on the field to use a football term.

    • You’d better believe GZ should be concerned. Anonymous is a team of very powerful hackers, getting hold of all the SPD’s documents, all of the Zimmerman’s files going back to forever, is child’s play for them. Of course, Anonymous won’t want to compromise a criminal case, so they’ll be very circumspect about what they decide to release. Whatever happens, it can’t help GZ or family and friends that they’ve made enemies of these guys.

  5. Very concerned. It is unfortunate that we need Anonymous today and while I do not agree with everything done, I certainly understand why.

    • Thanks Amsterdam, skimmed through it. Not sure what the “Brady” parts of these drafts are really. Somewhere in there Serino wrote that the 14 yells for help were determined to come from GZ. Doesn’t say how they determined that except that Serino believed that. That’s not evidence in my opinion. If anything, it just gives insight into how they (the cops) all thought that GZ’s case initially fit with self-defense based on a couple of witnesses testimony (the two John/Jon’s probably) and the sight of GZ’s smeared blood from his little boo-boos and an unidentified black youth on the ground. If somebody had the time, it would be great to copy the different drafts into a Word program and do a “compare” function to highlight what was changed.

      • This is what I’ve seen. Serino submitted 4 drafts to O’Connor on march 13th. First 2 drafts Serino suggested murder 2. In the last 2 drafts Serino added more reasons in his conclusion that pointed to GZ’s guilt and he lessened the charge to manslaughter.
        Last page is an email from O’Connor to the investigative team on march 15, in which he states he thought about changing his mind 2 days earlier, but after talking to Chief Lee, he was convinced again he’d made the right decission.

        Conclusion Serino wanted this material out to show he was convinced Zimmerman was guilty and he seriously attempted to change O’Connor’s mind, but that he was overruled by O’Connor and Bill Lee.

        • Thanks diary and amsterdam. That makes sense now. It’s been what’s confusing me about what Serino’s position was and is on this case and what he has to protect himself from. I mean he was the one who filed a recommendation to arrest and charge GZ, which the state ultimately agreed to do, yet he’s the one with a lawyer now.

          • It is interesting. We don’t know why he has lawyered up of course. Is it because the SPD is facing scrutiny, or because Serino “volunteerd” to leave his assignment as an homicide investigator and to become a night patrol cop?

            I don’t see why the prosecutor of GZ, would need Brady material for Serino, but IANL. I think it may have been a political move to get this material out in the public, with possible Brady material as an excuse.

    • interesting read. So Serino says Trayvon did not use lethal force. He also says that in all of GZ’s calls about suspicious characters they were always black. So he called the police on other occasions for other complaints, but when someone was just suspicious they always happened to be black…do i have that right?

      what i find odd is that there is no mention of how GZ’s story does in no way match the evidence. Sure he put himself in harms way, may have instigated the situation, may have been profiling….but what of all the lies that prove it did not happen the way he said it did. No mention of his inconsistantcies, no mention of how it just didn’t add up when they took him through the nen call etc. Surely all of that is part of the evidence that can lead to a charge..puzzling.

      • Puzzling indeed. Those inconsistencies were and are still head scratchers. At the time, I think his report only needed to include items that painted the big picture, i.e. profiling and misjudgement that led to a death, in order to make a case for a charge. He couldn’t prove yet that GZ was purposefully lying about anything, so it couldn’t go directly in the report. But both he and Singleton voiced their doubts loud and clear in the interview, and GZ’s inability to explain the inconsistencies IS evidence that can and will be used against him once it’s presented in total with all of the other evidence.

        • Looks like Serino took every effort he could to document his suspicions, as if he believed that his investigation might be stopped dead in it’s tracks before he could finish. That is truly the mark of a man caught in a swirl of corruption, who sees something so disgusting that he has to try to swim to shore against the currents.

  6. Thank you for the new thread; it’s much appreciated, dude! I hope you’re doing well. We miss ya here, but life happens. Take care of yourself!

    • Thanks Loree. It’s funny that O’Mara who reportedly makes $400 an hour said that the security company overcharged? Umm, they charged $60 an hour for security and the possibly of taking a bullet. Not that GZ was actually in any danger after having been arrested, but security for $60/hr is not excessive. They also lost money since they had to provide extra/unneccesary manpower (a two man detail for Shellie???) at O’Mara’s request, when they could have made $150/hour for investigative services.

      • @WSI

        And they got the reduced rate because it was long term.
        Did you notice how O’mara threw GZ under the bus, he said, “the proper party to address is GZ”.

        • @Loree, yeah, but I’m not sure who’s throwing who under the bus. While O’Mara has to be somewhat responsible since he did the actual hiring, the OK had to have come from GZ, and I would bet he and the family were the ones who insisted on the heavy security, as paranoid as they were/are.

          • They are throwing each other under the bus? HA!

            IIIRC, GZ approved of the security plan later that same day. O’mara hired the “investigators” side of it to contain the atty/client privelge. He would be responsible for that portion of the bill, if I am reading bottom page of five and top of page six. Even after the company told them that they thought the security was excessive, O’mara told them, GZ wanted the two man team.

            O’mara caught in the middle of his BS. I wonder what O’mara is doing right now? Kicking himself? I should of just listen to my wife and let it go, perhaps?

          • O’Mara did the hiring because, that puts the security people behind his attorney client “work product shield”, meaning that whatever the security guards hear of the families discussions, can’t be obtained by questioning by the SP. But, now that O’Mara says he’s not responsible for hiring the security detail, it’s no longer covered by his work product shield. Anything GZ or his family discussed in front of these security people can now be learned by the SP, because they can question them now.

            O’Mara must be suffering some kind of mental breakdown. I can’t say I blame him.

        • Yeah, really funny since by calling it a direct hire by Zimmerman, MOM is giving up his attorney client privilege shield. So that now the entire security detail can be questioned by the SP. Because it’s no longer covered by MOM’s work product shield. What a mistake!

  7. So Mr. O’Mara released the “better” but still not great recording of Mr. Crump’s interview with DeeDee. I haven’t listened to it all, but it’s still pretty garbled. Where’s Screaming Jay? I wonder if there’s any more info that can be gleaned from it.

  8. Hard to believe there’ve been no posts after Jan. 10–it’s now Jan. 13. Where is everyone?

    • There have been a few conversations at the BCClist Diaspora page on Whonoze’s blog which was started because the old thread here was getting long.
      I had to look up what “diaspora” meant: “the movement, migration, or scattering of people away from an established or ancestral homeland”. Bcclist is still our “ancestral homeland” I suppose and the flock will come back. There’s not much news to talk about now, and I personally have been petered out. Waiting for a bombshell to drop in this case. Like the 8-year-old witness who reportedly saw it all to come forward.

  9. Mr. Omara received TM’s school records, but they are protected and won’t be released. However, he felt the need to make some commentary on GZ’s legal website. An excerpt is below. Read it carefully. Right after saying that facts may be uncovered to show TM in a less than favorable light, he goes on to say that as an example, they want to show an accurate appearance of TM on the night of Feb 26. Well, we already have the 7-11 video showing TM a half hour before he was shot. Of course he isn’t a 12 year old boy there, but what can they possibly say about TM from that video that would make anyone think that it shows him in an “unfavorable light”? Hmm, tall dark-skinned kid who has baggy pants not because he wants to show his undies but because he’s so skinny. Yep, he was clearly “up to no good” in that store, he had 40 bucks and didn’t buy more food so he can keep them pants up over his hips.
    “As we approach a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing and/or a jury trial, there will be necessary scrutiny of Trayvon Martin. As it is true for any person who undergoes such scrutiny, facts may come out that could be seen to show him in a less than favorable light. We do, for instance, have an interest in presenting Trayvon Martin accurately as he appeared on the night of February 26, 2012, and that will include challenging the several-years-old photo of Trayvon Martin as a boy wearing a red shirt — the photo that has become the popular representation of him in the minds of the public at large. If the memory of Trayvon Martin is going to be a catalyst for a conversation about race relations in America, then we should have an honest conversation.”

    • Note to Mr. O’Mara, if your client ever decides to do another interview, you might remind him to have an “honest conversation” as well.

      • His teachers seemed to have liked him so I am interested to see what Mr. O’Liar is talking about.

        • I too would like to see what they’re talking about. But since they likely have nothing substantial, I think they’re using smoke and mirrors, that is, through this announcement and through all of the previous subpoenas and motions to put out suggestions that TM was anything less than an angel. We’re not “common sense” challenged. We know he smoked pot, he was suspended a few times, but where is the evidence that he was crazy violent? It seems like they’re back peddling to the early days of this case, essentially reminding people again of the picture of young TM in the red shirt and trying to play out the endless “George is a victim of media bias” mantra. The world has since seen the recent pictures of the 17 year old, and while he was taller that night, there was nothing else about him that should have aroused suspicion. In the end, the defense will look stupid if they try to morph TM into a gansta thug based on a goofy twitter picture of him and a removable grill.

          • Mind you, that “goofy twitter picture” was not of TM. But, of someone else, with the same name, but who lives in NYC. So, they won’t be using that, anywhere but on the net.

            • @Lonnie, I think you might be referring to a picture with a kid in boxer shorts flashing the finger or gang signs whatever that is not TM. I think there is a picture of TM with gold grills, and I think a dart board in the background. Not that it matters one ioata.

            • Nope, that picture of the kid with the gold grills was another look alike “doppleganger”, there was one from Virginia and one in New York. One even had the same name as Trayvon. But none of the pictures with the gold grills was him.

            • Thanks Lonnie, i dunno. You don’t think? Not even in this picture of him? It’s not a closeup, but looks like he has a bit of gold there. The only reason why I seem to think he did have grills was that the family has not released officially recent pictures of him with an open mouthed smile. His friends said he was a funny guy, and surely there would have been more happy looking pictures of him. I just imagined that they were advised not to show those pictures since the public’s reaction would be stupid. As if teeth decorations have anything to do with anything!

            • He wasn’t a wannabee gangsta, he just wasn’t that kind of kid. You know kids in school, you’ve been there. Some are focused on this, some are focused on that. We had a music guy, a baseball guy etc., they seemed to know everything about what they were focused on. Well, if Trayvon was focused on something other than mechanics, then he might consider a joke like that. But mechanics tend to be a bit too literal minded, like scientists, chemists and other disciplines that require rigorous thought processes. As such, not even in fantasy would he portray himself as anything other than a historically recognized comical figure, like a pirate for example, because pirates are no more. But not a criminal, because they are not historical or comical, but contemporary and serious.

              TM is a happy child, there’s not going to be any gravitation towards seriousness, even in play. That’s what I had decided before they started hacking into his Facebook page and uploading these pictures. The pictures were discovered not to be Trayvon, just as my mental profile predicted they would. The proZ’s needed to counter the fact that GZ claims that he was overpowered by a helpless unarmed child. Obviously if TM had lived, that would have been impossible to sell. Without TM alive, it was only a marginal sale.

          • Hey QETNO. Whazzup? Take a deep breath before you watch this video. I cringe at the profanity that Trent is so famous for and I can’t ever get past 5 seconds of his videos, but this one just posted yesterday refers to Junior’s still ongoing media tour that’s going evermore south in terms of respectability (far cry from Piers Morgan) and civility. Note that what Trent says about what was said came from the radio host after the show and not while Junior was on it, but still. Does he think he’s doing his brother favors by talking to blatant racists?
            Actually I just decided against posting the direct link, it’s just too offensive. But you can find it on youtube posted by “stateoftheinternet” and keyword “Randy Hahn”.

            • Hey, WSI. I hope you are well. I haven’t watched, but through comments on HP, I read that TM was referred to as a n***** by this radio host. *sigh* If O’Mara and GZ were smart, they would come out with a statement denouncing what this host said on air. Jr. associates himself with people like that, but it was really NBC and the media that made everyone think they were racists; LOL, ok, sure.

            • @QETNO, I’m feeling fine now. Thanks. Nope, O’Mara saying anything about the comment would just draw attention to it. He’s already disavowed having any control over the family members. While it’s amusing/saddening/enraging to us bloggers the shenanigans Junior is getting into, whatever he does still shouldn’t have anything to do with GZ’s case. Unless of course, we find out GZ blessed his brother’s hobnobbing with a racist talk show host in a desperate attempt to reach other racists that would still be willing to send him money.

            • Nope, shit like that won’t and shouldn’t have a thing to do with a M2 case, but blaming NBC and lawyers for the Fulton/Martin family for people thinking they’re all a bunch of racists is a joke when you have GZ and the fam making their selves look bad on their regular.

    • Right. Don’t you know wearing khaki pants shows you’re a gang-banger? I’m amazed other gang-bangers haven’t caught on to the trend. HA!

    • thanks for posting..

      there is so much wrong with this. You are suppose to be defending your client in court against the charges, not engaging in conversation with America on race relations. How about focusing on the fact that your client essentially stalked harrassed and shot someone who wasn’t doing anything wrong and tell it to the jury. I’ve never seen such a fucking circus. Everyone else is quiet and O’Mara keeps grand standing over issues that don’t matter. Who cares what the kid looked like on the night….he wasn’t doing anything wrong and THAT is the point. Going on about what Trayvon looked like shows there was profiling. So what if he wasn’t 14 years old and wearing a red t-shirt like the photo shown to the public..doesn’t matter if he was cute, ugly, tall, short, riding a horse or wearing a dress. He wasn’t doing anything wrong, If he was followed because of what he looked like, GZ is in a shit load of trouble. So what’s your fucking point O’Mara? He didn’t kill a cute little kid for doing nothing wrong, he shot a not so cute kid for doing nothing wrong…i hope you have more than that.

      • I try no to waste any energy on what the GZ crowd is putting out there. Nothing of what they say about Trayvon can be used at trial, and if they could, they would be making the case that what GZ did was racial profiling. I also think it reaches a relatively small crowd, and its main purpose is to rile up this base and get them to donate money. These people who buy into this bull, already belief all this anyway. They just need to be weeded out during the jury selection process.

        Just think about it, if GZ doesn’t take the stand all prosecution needs to do is show that Trayvon did exactly what he said he was going to do; Go to the store, buy candy and a soda, and head home again.
        They play the nen call, where the jury can hear GZ already had Trayvon pegged as a criminal, hear him throw a racial slur. Hear how GZ is saying how Trayvon is first walking and then running away from him. Hear GZ jumping out of his car and running after him. Remember if GZ isn’t going to take the stand, his rediculous explanations “I wasn’t running, it was windy”, “I wasn’t following him, I just wanted to get an address”, will never be entered as evidence.

        Next the jury will hear the 911 calls, with the screaming and the shot. They will hear 4 witnesses, say that the person on top right after the shot was fired, stood up and walked away, and the person on the bottom, remained dead on the ground.

        Next they will have Dee Dee filling in the blanks.

        GZ has nothing to offer, unless he takes the stand. And if he does take the stand, he will be exposed for the liar he is.

        I see the circus O’Mara and the GZ support group is putting on, as acts of desperation.

        • Was reading on one of the horrible pro-GZ sites by accident the other day (never again!) and some on that site were trying to claim that Dee Dee was a prostitute. I hope she’s strong and has a good family to back her up.

  10. One day our Assistant Principal, Mr. Lee, substituted for our assigned teacher, Mr. Wong, (loved that man). Mr. Lee ridiculed me in front of 20 male classmates for choosing electronics and wood shop. Specifically he called me a dike. I threw a pretty thick electronics text book at him for which I received a 3 day suspension. It was 1974. I was president of my 9th grade class, a good student and a cheerleader AND it was in San Francisco. Did I deserve to be chased and murdered? Rhetorical.

    • @Debbie, wow, assault with an electronics text book. I’m going to put you on my list of people not to piss off.

    • depends who you ask and what you look like. If you ask the small penis/big gun brigade then yes…yes you do. But only if you are black and aren’t cute anymore.

      • Right. I most certainly am Black attending a predominantly white school and living in a predominantly white neighborhood in 1974. . . and while folks say we have progressed, on some issues I don’t know just how much. Maybe it was because the man I “assaulted” was also Black. More importantly, due process seems to be falling by the waste side in this country.

    • “Specifically he called me a dike.”

      Should have said “Let’s see what the school board has to say about your being overly interested in a student’s sexual preferences.”


      • Actually he was reprimanded without any input from me or my parents. Remember it was San Francisco in 1974 and Harvey Milk was all the rage. God I miss San Francisco. My son will never know fun like I knew fun – but that might not be such a bad thing.

  11. This article is disturbing of course because of the senseless nature of this killing, a black man being run over for no apparent reason other than the drunkenness and potential bigotry of some teenagers. In another incident of some black teenagers were run off the road into the ditch by two white men in a Jeep. They were OK, but there were witnesses. However, the response of the sherriff “investigating” or rather “not investigating” the case was very disturbing (quote below).

    ****Sheriff Darby told CNN on the phone they had looked into the incident with the boys on the road and found nothing. “There’s nothing to this report,” he said, “it’s all hearsay,” and “he-said she-said.” Sheriff Darby told CNN he would not give a copy of the report to the network. Then the sheriff warned CNN not to “stir up trouble in my county.” He warned if the network pursued the story, “I’ll be coming after you.” *****

  12. New OS articles up on their site… O’Mara finally filed a subpoena for the DeeDee/Crump interview from ABC/Matt Gutman. He also deposed W6 and his wife (I never remember her witness number). It will be interesting to see what W6 says this time since he seems easily influenced and flip flops.

    • Thanks QETNO, I haven’t been paying close enough attention to know if we will get to read all transcripts from these depositions. You would think we’d get it all per sunshine rules, but then I don’t know jack crap about legal stuff. Yes, it would be interesting to see how W6 describes what he saw when he’s talking to the defense now.

  13. Was just reading over at Leathermans, and looolooo posted about a scene in the movie “Back to School” with Rodney Dangerfield. Watch this short 35 second clip. Listen at the end. There are three lines that are very familiar to this case, first starting with “You got a problem?”……

    • LOL. I’m surprised GZ didn’t use this line somewhere… Although, I believe he did tell one of his coworkers TM said something along the lines of “you don’t know who you’re messing with,” which is similar to the whole you don’t know who you’re talking to line…

  14. After literally months in the making the “BCClist clucbhouse security footage + police call audio analysis” video is now completed and up on YouTube:

    It’s over 47 minutes long. Hopefully it’s concrete and detailed in ways previous presentations have not been, and more firmly establishes the nature of some of GZ’s key falsehoods.

    If you think its any good, give a bow to yourself for participating in this blog and helping make the video possible. If you think it’s not worthwhile, I shall take all the blame.

    • Thanks to all that contributed to the content and creation of this video; great job, whonoze and all.

    • Great Job… Looking at it I’ve noticed something that needs an explanation.
      At 29:19 in the hall video, there appears this blinking that isn’t there all the time. but it persists and has the look and ‘feel’ of being emergency blinkers. I wonder if there’s another vehicle moving in the area with just it’s emergency blinkers on? There certainly seems to be artifacts that suggest there could be. Just wondering.

      • Lonnie:
        It would help (me anyway) if references to points in any of the security footage were made in the clock-time we have deduced and that I used in the video, rather than in the running times of the original clips.

    • @Whonoze, just echoing what everybody else has said. Great video! I’ve only had time just now to view the video and I can see how much effort must have went into it. Particularly amazing is how the timing of everything went, matching TM’s walk from the mail box to the T and leaving no room for the coming back and “circling my car” crap GZ claimed.

      Regarding the speculative part at the end, I don’t have evidence, but rather just a hunch that GZ actually did stop for awhile at the end of the NEN call, or at least just walked very very slowly on RVC. That would account for some of the time. In your video you have GZ making it all the way down past B. Greene’s house and then back up the dogwalk, perhaps taking over TM. While he was not 300 lbs at the time and could have booked it, I don’t think there was such a long chase. It’s more likely he cut in between a building before making it all the way down RVC and encountered TM. Something about DeeDee’s statement makes me think that his saying that the man was getting real close was TM seeing GZ approaching from some direction after having lost him (So I agree that TM was somewhere stationary along the dogwalk/behind a fence or building for some time. The fact that she says he wasn’t gonna run because he was near his dad’s house (near being relative) indicates that he wasn’t running at the time they met up. And the exchange of “What’re you following me for” and “what are you doing around here” doesn’t sound like something that would occur right after such a long footchase from south to north on the dogwalk.

      Sorry if I’m repeating what someone else has already discussed, I’ve been out of it for a few days and have not had time to read all the comments in the Diaspora thread. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

      • One of the things I discovered trying to animate my hypothesis was that enough time elapses that GZ didn’t have to book. He had plenty of time to WALK down to the RVC/TTL intersection, and he needed only to walk briskly to catch up to Martin.

        My guess is that having led the “crazy guy” away from his home, Trayvon had basically had enough of GZ’s crap, and let him catch up so he could find out what the hell was going on. I don’t for one second believe DeeDee’s claim that TM did not run because he was too tired. She adds that after numerous utterances of “I say RUN. He say he not gonna run.” In other words, he was too righteous and too proud to run like he’d done something wrong or like a scared little kid, and DeeDee is covering lest someone take this perfectly understandable stubbornness the wrong way.

        • @Whonoze

          Yes I can believe that. Its logical. After being watched. After being folllowed in the car. Followed on foot. Trying to get away. He has not done anything wrong like you said, why should he run. The only logical thing to do is to turn around and ask the question, “Why are you following me? This is not in any way nothing wrong to do considering the preceding events. Trayvon said to DeeDee this guy is getting close, he is right on my ass. Any one of us would of done the same thing, ask the question, “Why are you following me”, Given all that has transpired before the question was asked Trayvon still gave him the benefit of doubt. “Why are you following me”. At this point as Serino stated this was the second opportunity afforded to GZ to identify himself and his concerns. What did he do, he answered in a confrontational manner, corrabated by deedee and witnesses “What are you doing around here?!” No matter what Trayvon may of answered, gz was already in the mindset of these coons, these assholes, fed up issues, script,numerous 911 calls on young black males, unpaid bills, alcohol, drugs, and then worst of all a gun. GZ in my eyes was a walking timebomb. He was going to use that gun one way or another. I think he sought Trayvon out. His own cousin and witnesses at the Retreat said he could be confrontational when he was out patroling the neighborhood.

        • @Whonoze, I actually agree with your presumption that DeeDee was trying too hard to explain why TM wasn’t gonna run. I also agree that TM was not going to lead a crazy guy TO his house where 13 year old Chad was. You’re right, there was plenty of time, and thus many scenarios could have happened. Whether GZ stood on RVC and scratched his butt part of or the whole time or ran/walked all the way down south, he still lied about going immediately back to his truck and encountering TM 15 seconds after the end of his NEN call. I personally waffle between two scenarios: either 1) GZ went part way down RVC cut through a building) then came back up north on the dogwalk, or 2) had walked down south on RVC a ways then decided to re-trace his steps back up the way he came on RVC to the top of the T. This latter scenario has not been discussed much, but would be more consistent with the a north to south “debris field” of the evidence.

  15. At 7:09:11 image clock time or 28:21 video time.

    There appears a full circular head lamp in the hall video.
    But, if the truck is moving past this area, how does the
    video show a direct headlight view?
    Another thing I noticed is, while there are sounds of somekind of
    activity. There is no change in voice or voice sounds, that would
    indicate that the speaker is doing these things making the sounds.

    • The fact it looks round doesn’t mean it’s a direct view. This is an artifact of how digital video sensors react to hot-spots, the low resolution, etc.etc. If the light was pointed directly at the camera, the spot would be a good bit brighter, and you’d also see the beam lighting up the EPH.

  16. No surprise, Mr. O’Mara is asking to delay the trial, or seemed to indicate that he will try to go for an immunity hearing and needs more time. In this motion to continue, he lists a bunch of reasons for the delay that he had already whined about, such as getting a digital copy of GZ’s face late, cell phone records, DeeDee’s recording, etc. A couple of “new” bits of information or should I say “insinuations” were stated without really giving any information. For example, he says TM’s phone was sent to California and then another company for analysis. He recently got a report from that analysis but said that there was data missing from Feb. 26. He also says that FDLE has a map of the where the phone was on Feb. 26. Again, without saying anything in terms of what the evidence is, he seems to be throwing a bone to the treehouse crowd.

    At the end of this file are color copies of GZ’s jacket and shirt with markings of blood stains analyzed for DNA. It’s a bit easier now to map the stains now. Unfortunately, i don’t have the energy right now to look at those but will try at some point to see if there’s anything new. @Tchoupi, you still out there?????

    Click to access defendants_motion_to_continue.pdf

    Oh, yeah, and O’Mara’s also asking 7-11 for their credit card records. I think he’s trying to track down those 3 guys who came in after TM at the 7-11.

    Click to access motion_for_subpoena_7-11.pdf

      • GPS data from TM’s phone would be very interesting indeed. Of course, it is concerning that the motions says that analysis of GPS data and phone calls/texts from Feb 26 are specifically missing from the report. One can’t help but think “tampering” or “purposeful omission” but it goes both ways. The SPD had it in their posssession and at the time remember that they wanted GZ free. So what the heck happened?

        After a long, what feels like a bowel cleansing period of not visiting the treehouse, I paid a visit over there just to see their reaction to this motion. They’re high fiving each other saying that if it were found that TM made it farther down the dogwalk and then “doubled back” then it would be grounds for dismissal of the case. However, Whonoze’s video and other variations of the theory here that GZ also went south and forced TM to move north would also explain that.

        Does anyone know what happened to GZ’s phone? I know the detectives took it from him at the station, then Singleton went and got it for him so he could retrieve a phone number, but did they give it back to him at the end of the evening/interrogations on Feb 27 morning? It would seem so since the phone was not logged into evidence right? That’s a huge travesty unless they had in those hours downloaded everything from GZ’s phone as well. HIS GPS data would be highly critical here as well.

        • @WSI

          >>>>HIS GPS data would be highly critical here as well.

          I couldn’t agree more.
          I have read in the motion that several attempts were made into Trayvon’s phone and it locked out.
          I find it very weird that the data from the 26th is missing per O’Mara. Could it be that O’mara had someone or just misplace that particular data sheet? I mean, really the guy is in way over his head. He couldn’t get witness numbers correct to their statments. Not very prepared and not very organized. I don’t believe the state would do something like this to jeopardize their case.

          • The “State” would not do that to jeopardize the case, but some rogue individual might. I don’t like thinking about conspiracies, but anything is possible with this crazy case.

            • Keep the smelling salt handy!

              By the way, sorry I don’t have the link, but you must have heard…it’s rather funny/sad that O’Mara has to prep people on GZ’s weight gain before they see him at the Feb. 5 hearing. If they thought he gained a lot of weight at the last hearing, I guess they’ll be blown away to see him now with a 100 lb weight gain. He says that it would hurt GZ’s case to have him be overweight. However, maybe his goal is to look so out of shape, they’re going to argue he couldn’t have chased down a high school kid. Ha!

            • @WSI

              Yep. O’mara can be slippery like that, but Bernie will pull out his arraingment hearing picture, the one with the dark gray jumpsuit. And yell to the court, THIS IS WHAT the defendant looked like!

              I need to go shopping for smelling salts! I am all out! I used them all up on Whonoze! HA!

            • Ah, more accurate is his “re-enactment” video the DAY AFTER the shooting. Notwithstanding his slow poke “I’m walking, just walking, I was walking, walking, still walking” claim, he looked quite nimble there. I don’t care what the defense is going to claim about what you can or cannot see because of the resolution of the camera. I mean if a person was beaten to within an inch of his life, we shouldn’t need a magnifying glass to see it on a color video. While we don’t have pictures of TM (nor do I want to see them) I think TM had the disadvantage (other than being profiled for being black) of having darker skin, which if he had had any incidental contusions from the tussle, it would not show up readily on his skin. Remember how we have to zoom in really close to see those little specks of whatever on GZ’s light skin? Those same “specks” would not be seen on TM’s skin so easily, even to the medical examiner I think. Who wants to bet how big GZ’s bloody nose picture is going to be as it’s presented in court and how far they’re going to zoom in on those boo boo cuts?

            • @WSI,

              You are right about the skin color not showing up like GZ. My husband always calls me high yellow. Even though my skin tone is way lighter then his, I get annoyed, but pleasantly. His cuts don’t appear as much as mine do. I wonder about the funeral director though, he would be more skilled at seeing these things and presumably he worked with more dark skin bodies then light skin bodies. He would be the person to talk to. But IIRC, he did say he didn’t see anything out of the ordinary. But was he really looking? You know what I mean, like was it ever asked of him to really review Trayvon’s body. ????

          • It will show up. The prosecution may have taken what O’Mara calls, a formalistic approach.

          • if there was GPS data on his phone wouldn’t the prosecution have accessed that info…not that it helps the defence. Doesn’t matter where Trayvon went if we don’t also know where GZ was.

            Could the missing data just be something such as messages/calls Trayvon deleted on the 26th. I doubt the prosecution, investigators or technical experts would be so stupid as to mess with evidence. Maybe O’Mara wants to access things that Trayvon deleted, He probably thinks it will have info to prove Trayvon was a criminal druggy thug…..not that it matters….at the end of the day it is a waste of time for them to asassinate Trayvons character because even if he was the worse criminal on the planet how would gz have known it at the time he followed him….by his own description the worst thing poor Tray did was not walk fast enough in the rain and might have looked around a bit. Even criminals are allowed to walk home without being shot.

            • Tracing where TM went could prove or disprove GZ story. GZ reenacted what happen showing where he contacted TM. And there has been some showing that where GZ claims and where TM body was is some distance. It would be interesting to see what the GPS does show either way.

            • I don’t think the prosecution is obliged to provide the defense with this information.
              What the GPS could show is that Trayvon was at the mail shed long before GZ got there.

            • A large part of what the gps data will show, depends on how accurate it is at locating the phone. I’ve read that there may be an error of as much as 50 ft. If that is the case, then just imagine the map of RATL with “tm” location markers sprinkled all over it. How many markers will depend on how often the system polls the phone for it’s location. At 1/second, for example, in the 3 minutes you’d have a sprinkle of 180 dots on the map, any of which could be off by as much as 50 feet.

              A statistician or mathematician might be able to “tickle” something useful out of the data, or maybe not. If the errors are so random that no sense can be made of it, it is quite likely it is useless data.

              It would seem to me that the people who recovered the data, are now at work trying to find some sense in it and therefore haven’t returned it to the SP, because, as it is, it’s just gibberish. I doubt that MOM wants the raw data, since he hasn’t the fund for the experts needed to see if anything can be extracted from it. Of course, if the SP gives him the raw data, then what the SP later extracts from the data will be work product and not discoverable. MOM is working at cross purposes to himself.

            • I think the prosecution has to hand over any evidence they have. If there was gps tracking on his phone the prosecution would have the coordinates and it would become part of the evidence.

              If there is GPS and it shows Trayvon went home then doubled back it doesn’t mean trayvon doubled back to initiate a confrontation with gz because we don’t know where gz was…he may have gone south and found trayvon on his porch leading trayvon to head north again to get away from him. Just saying that yes it may show Trayvons path but wont explain why he took that path or if gz lurking in the dark had anything to do with it. But it should prove at least that trayvon did not appear out of the darkness and circle his car like he claimed in the re-enactment..

            • Not to mention that there should be GPS data on GZ’s phone that should have been captured. It it was not, then that’s going to count towards the effort to ignore the evidence that GZ was, in fact, guilty, by ignoring the obvious conflicts in his story that would tend to conceal lies. Lies, needed to mask his guilt.

      • Don’t know about polling rates, but in thinking about this issue more, i think the “missing” GPS data as probably not something as sinister as someone purposefully deleting it. I mean it would be incredibly stupid to try to delete just one day of data. I don’t have GPS on my phone but I think you can enable or disable GPS tracking, right? So you’d have to look at the whole record and see when it was enabled or disabled. Maybe it only recorded GPS data when TM had it on tracking mode? The fact that O’Mara said that FDLE had made a map of TM’s whereabouts makes me think they were able to do so using data from the phone company (tower logs). Who knows….

  17. I am not surprised the O’Mara is now asking for a delay to November, he has said in the past the case would not start until 2014. Other Stand Your Ground Cases in Florlda started 3 years after the incident. This is the first I heard about the GPS, so O’Mara can’t find it, I remember even GZ stated O’Mara new about the money before any court hearing, O’Mara has denied it, he stated if he did he could face being disbarred. What really I find interesting is now O’Mara is publicly asking for donations. Is there a way to check on what they claim to have recieved vs money spent..the number O’Mara has stated does not look right. O’Mara also stated he has released new picture of TM, it is one the police had on record, it is a head shot of TM with a sober expression, not smiling. O’Mara claims this is a more accurate picture of TM, showing a taller older person. As I recall the medical records, TM and GZ were only a few inches difference in size. GZ stated in the begining TM was 6 foot something, when he was only 5′ 10″ I think.

    I have no doubt in my mind that O’Mara is trying to cloud the case and divert it from GZ, he now releases the defense claims are weak.

    • According to the autopsy report, Trayvon was 5’11” and 158 lbs., while Zimmerman is 5’8″ (only 3″ shorter) and, at the time he murdered Trayvon, weighed well over 200 lbs.

      • The autopsy would have measured Trayvon’s height without his shoes on. They probably measured GZ’s height WITH his shoes on. So maybe more of a 4″ height difference. Even 3″ is a lot. But “Slimm” was a skinny kid at 158 lbs., and at the time of the shooting GZ’s 200 pounds included a pretty well bulked up upper body. As Amsterdam has noted, if Trayvon ever did get into a “straddle” on top of Zimmerman, GZ should have had no trouble at all using his weight and strength advantage to achieve a quick reversal.

        I think GZ got the lacerations on the back of his head from the broken utility cover, which would mean he was on his back at that point. But by the time those cuts started to bleed, he was on top as the blood trails show… (Gravity doesn’t lie.)

        • The marshal artists say that the mount position is very unstable for the straddler. The person on top would need a high level of skill to maintain such an unstable position. Even black belts do not prefer to straddle because of the difficulties involved in maintaining the superior position and because it is so easily reversed and/or upset.

          I’d imagine that a combat expert will be able to bear out and confirm the instability of this position and if so, put the lie to GZ’s story that TM was so easily able to, not just maintain the position, but use it to some advantage as well. Of course, how he could additionally accomplish all of this, without getting any dna or other trace on his hands requires a trip into fantasy land.

          • Even a person with a high level of skill would only be able to maintain that position by keeping the shoulders of the person on the bottom immobilized and would need the head and shoulders to accomplish that. If you are trained and you’d be in that position for a split second, you’d immediately go for a chokehold by grabbing the top of the jacket with your 2 hands crossed and pulling your hands to the side. That cuts off the blood flow to the brain immediately and the person would be unconcious within seconds.
            The idea that Trayvon could’ve choked and constrained GZ by sitting on him and having both his hands on GZ’s face is silly Hollywood stuff.

            • You can easily see why the position is so unstable for the person on top. Although their center of gravity gets lower, their new base is their inner thighs, buttocks and knees. Thus the new base is irregular and difficult to manage in most directions, that makes the position very unstable. Only in movies, where the script rules the day, does the person on top stay on top. In real life, wrestling matches for example, the straddle position only exists for seconds before it is discarded. Thus it’s best though of as a position for launching new attacks, not for maintaining any assault.

            • That is right. The way GZ describes it all hè had to do is grab the pulses, turn his face to one side and push the hands in the same direction as his face, something you probably would do automaticly. The person on top would roll on his back. No strenght necessary. It is like slipping on a banana peel.

    • I do so enjoy BDLR’s responses. Summary: O’Mara, stop whining, stop blaming the state, and stop making us do your job. Not our fault your client made you do extra work because he lied about money or that you had no time for doing your job (preparing for depositions) because you were busy working on delaying your job (this motion to delay).

      • MOM has wasted time and money listening to GZ. I believe he listened to GZ because, he believed GZ had some secret method for bringing in the money. That appearance allowed GZ to hold sway over MOM, since the threat was there would either be money if MOM listened to GZ or no more money if he didn’t. It took a while for MOM to figure out that GZ had merely gotten lucky. The money didn’t come from the gun crowd either. It came from the racists who started giving and kept giving as long as the issue was a while male shooting a black kid. As long as GZ kept saying he wasn’t a racist the funds kept pouring in. Once he said he was proud of his Hispanic Heritage, however, that was it, the contributions dried up. Once he was no longer lily white there was no more supremacy money for him.

        Now he’s simply a loser about whom nobody cares. MOM wants to hold up the trial while he works to somehow get the funds flowing, but that’s not a good reason at law. He’ll have to work with the funds he has, just like everyone else.

        GZ is left in “Colin Ferguson” mode, stuck with a case that cannot be won. Yet, still required to put on a defense of some kind. My guess is that the Judge will realize that GZ’s chances of winning a case of this type, without any personal credibility, is slim to none. So, there’s little chance of reversible error being created, because any such error has to be predicated on a good and sufficient possibility, that one might have won, but for this mistake. There are too many “mistakes” the defendant has made, such that no one mistake could be singled out as the cause of his loss. Too bad, game, set, match, GZ is toast!

        • From your fingertips to God’s (whomever or whatever one’s God might be) ears.

  18. ***DNA ANALYSIS ALERT!****
    Here’s a reminder of why BCClist rules. I just had a look at the pictures of GZ’s red jacket with the stains marked for DNA testing attached at the very end of the defense’s latest motion to continue.

    Click to access defendants_motion_to_continue.pdf

    And then I doubled checked the DNA evidence (see page 124-125 of the FDLE bio evidence file.)

    Click to access GZ-FLDE-bio-evidence-2-0919.pdf

    As noted before, most of the stains found were from GZ. Only 2 stains showed TM as a possible contributor:
    Stain U is found on the underside of the cuff of the right sleeve of the jacket. This stain has a mixed DNA profile of at least 2 individuals. TM is included as a possible contributor, while GZ cannot be determined (not ruled in or out) as a contributor.

    Stain N is found on the upper right front of the jacket at the shoulder. This stain has GZ as the major contributer and TM as the minor contributor.

    I think we were able to see Stain N before. So that is not new. I think our previous takeaway message was that there was little or virtually none of TM’s blood on GZ. That is still true.

    BUT HERE’s the kicker!!! (See page 141 of the FDLE bio evidence link above) I checked more closely on how these stains were identified. Stains A-Q on the jacket were “visualized”. By this, I think they either mean that you could see it by eye (seeing dark red spot) or with luminol (luminol when applied to blood reacts with the iron in the hemoglobin of the blood and produces a blue light that can be seen by the naked eye in the dark). Now, Stains R – EE (which of course includes stain U found on the cuff of the right sleeve) were detected with “ALS” or an alternative light source, which is basically a UV lamp. The UV lamp will help to pick up DNA that is NOT blood, The fact that we DON”T see TM’s DNA picked up via the “ALS” all over GZ makes me think that this Stain U on the cuff has to be more than just TM’s dry hand touching GZ’s sleeve (otherwise you’d seen TM’s DNA all over GZ as they were in close contact). I’m guessing it had to be more like a body fluid like saliva.

    Who wants to speculate??? Remember the re-enactment slip? “He put his hand on his mouth… mouth….” Who was suffocating who???

    • Oh, and the other tidbit/observation that could be seen from the color photos was that a few blood droplets were found on the front chest area of GZ’s longsleeved shirt that he wore underneath the jacket. It’s all his blood. I’m guessing the defense will add that to the bloody nose picture to say that he had blood “dripping” from his nose. (which of course had to have occurred after the medics unzipped his jacket.) Although the word “dripping” is relative. The dna report stated that there were in all “16 small RBS” (red blood stains) on the shirt.

  19. Off topic….Whoo – hoo! Go Ravens!….my apologies to NLME who I’m assuming is a Niner fan.

  20. The GZ hearing tomorrow (Tuesday Feb 5) will start at 9 am Eastern time. The florida Channel 13 will be carrying it live, but they only say that updates will be provided online.

    I’m not sure, but there’s a possibility CNN will carry it live. If anyone knows definitely where we can watch it online live, please link.

          • My interpretion of what Judge Nelson: What part of “postpone the deposition of Mr. Crump” don’t you understand????

            Did you see the look on the defense counsels’ faces??? They are fuming!

            • They (defense) are getting a taste of their own medicine, getting slapped with an affidavit right before the hearing. Oh, it was rather funny when Mr. O’Mara was shuffling through those papers waving his hands going I don’t know what this stuff is (about the phone). BDLR says, OK, I will connect the dots for you! Ha!! Someone send the defense Whonoze’s video, it’ll help with connecting dots….

            • Nope can’t afford it, but maybe Whonoze would take as payment the opportunity to observe GZ watching his video. How priceless would that be? That is, if he’s not too pathological to let loose an “Oh shit, they’ve got me” look.

            • They didn’t have the camera directly on GZ as much during this hearing. No, not so much eyeblinking. He actually looked rather alert and his stone faced stare didn’t look angry. I think he’s just going through the motions now. He did look a bit more overweight than last time, which was only apparent when I saw him get up and walk out. You can’t attribute that to a bullet-proof vest, and I couldn’t tell if he was even wearing one.

            • No word that I know of on immunity hearing. Defense was probably hoping for a continuance on the trial itself to prepare for an immunity hearing before then, but we’ll have to see what they do now.

            • Ha!
              I think Whonoze would grill him so bad that he would just confess to him.
              Whonoze to GZ
              I got you on pool house camera.
              I got you with your lights of your truck.
              I got your location of where your truck wasn’t.
              I got the timing of the 911 calls.
              I got you man, now what do you have to say.

              Ummm Whonoze, I can’t remember, its all like a haze, my wife, umm please don’t tell.
              Whonoze: I call Bullshit! Get your ass back in your truck, you are going to jail.

            • It’ll be more entertaining to have QETNO or Jo do the grilling. Or even you Loree. You’re all nice and sweet on these forums, but I think that cute blushbrown avatar is a ruse. I want front seat center if you ever get into a room with GZ.

            • @WSI
              I busted out laughing reading your post.
              Your insight is astouding. But really I am sweet as sugar, just don’t fuck with me or mine.
              Remember I said I would eat that man in the boat. 👿

            • @WSI

              Back in my younger days I had work for a private firm. The firm was in the process of handing over accounts in the real estate business side to the new firm. The new firm had acquired space in the same building. So we had alot of meetings, telling the new firm what the client needs were, and how we billed, and how some needed more care then others. So here we are being the little private firm giving a small portion of the business to the bigger guy. I absolutely loved the man taste in clothes and shoes, the owner of the firm. Had a good repoire with him . But I digress. Anyway, here we are in the office with one of his underlings who would be the man in charge of the “clients” . This man sat in my bosses office with me present, and was just totally disrespectful. My boss was explaining things, and the other guy was so brusque, so unprofessional, that I can see in my bosses face he was embarassed and mad at the way he was speaking to him, but he maintained his composure.
              I didn’t.
              Meeting over, he goes to his floor. I am livid. I take the elevator to his floor, and marched right into his office and said, Let me tell you something, You ever ever, talk or approach my boss in the manner that you have, you are going to have a problem with me. You have shown no respect or even took his advice on the clients he has known for years. That sir is unprofessional, since you want to be unprofessional, I can be that too. When you come to my floor you show some respect for him and everyone else. Then I stormed out. His whole office heard my mouth. I think other floors heard as well. 🙂

              Needless to say a phone call was given to my boss by the time I got back up to my floor.
              The look on my boss face was priceless. He was so proud! He was beaming with pride. I got a tiny ity bity tongue lashing. But he totally appreciated what I had done. Even the head guy from the other firm thank me and put his boy in his place. No more problems from the other guy. Sweet and professional until all the transfers were done.

              That my friend is what I do.

            • @WSI

              Yes. I am quite protective over the people I know. I don’t like when people pick on other people. I am quite verbal in this regard. My husband will tell people, look she speaks her mind. Don’t take it the wrong way, that’s just the way she is. He is the total opposite of me. Quiet, calm and the sweetest guy ever. I just love him. 🙂

  21. Is there someplace on the web I can get the video? I only caught the last five minutes re the deposition.

  22. In lawyer-speak, Mr. Crump’s affadavit confirms what I’ve said all along: that Matt Gutman has an intelligible recording of the Crump/W8 interview.

    “24. While I believe Mr. Gutman and his assistant may also have had a recording device of their own present with them in the room during some or all of the Interview, I have no knowledge as to whether that device was ever successfully used to record any portion of the Interview [5]”

    footnote 5:
    “I did not provide a copy of the Recording to Mr. Gutman, his assistant or anyone else affiliated with ABC, not did I otherwise make the Recorder available to them so they could make a copy.”

    Well if Atty. Crump didn’t give a copy to Gutman, Gutman’s device must have been recording successfully, since ABC played soundbites from the interview as part of several news stories. If Crump has no knowledge of it I guess he must watch Fox news instead of ABC… 🙂

    Oh, right, he’s an NBC guy… 😀

  23. Well I am sure there will be an appeal on O’Mara part about the delay being denied. He may even try to get Judge Nelson removed. And then there is the matter of the getting more money. Looking at GZ he has got to be close to 300 pounds….

    • He painted himself into this corner. He asked for a new judge. He has one. . . Brings that old adage to mind “be careful what you ask for . . . “

    • yes kind of expecting a request for a new judge since he didn’t get what he wanted…loved how BDLR called them out on the last tantrum they threw that led to the previous judge being removed. The judge said what he did because GZ and wife lied lied to the court but they threw a hissey fit.

      I’m confused about the phone. I think Bernie said something about how LE hadn’t even gotten into Trayvons phone before making a decision on whether to charge GZ or something like that. The defense really want to depose crump. Really really. Gives me the impression they have other questions they wanted to ask him and i think the judge thought that to and made it clear that the depo was to be ONLY on the question at hand.

      And i felt really uncomfortable with all the talk of witness 8’s facebook, twitter etc. It seems so wrong. They clearly want to try and throw holes in her account of what happened via social networking but it just feels like it is taking it all too far, makes me feel queasy. BDLR pointed out the smear campaign on a young girl who was NOT the real dee dee, i remember them gloating over at the Wagist about how they discovered who she was….FAIL!!. Speaking of that site, haven’t heard much of it for a while, now that place was hateful, hopefully it and everyone in it has imploded.

      Can someone tell me if GZ’s social networking is being brought into it? His phone records? Please tell me they have his phone calls on the night etc and if not why?

      Cheers all.

  24. Please forgive me if I’m derailing something or if this has been asked before, but I have a question:

    What sound does GZ’s truck make when the keys are left in it compared to the sound it makes when the lights are on? If GZ exited his truck it would sound like he did it with his keys still in the ignition and if so, was it his truck keys found at that top of the “T”? I would say that this question would implicate the SPD.

    • I can’t recall the details. The issue of the sounds was discussed here for weeks. And again the issue of the lights staying on and then does that make a sound.

      It is also likely various combinations of things make the same sound.

      People tried to work out from the sounds whether he’d left the keys in the ignition or not. But it would not be solid proof.

      The key was a Honda key, so has been assumed (by everyone) to be GZ’s. Nobody as far as I know ever checked if they fit his ignition or not. Nobody ever asked him about how they got there, either.

      The key could not have been placed by SPD, as it was noticed by witnesses when only 2 officers had arrived, and they’d not have had time to find the truck, remove the key and place it. Also at that time they would not have known enough of the events to know such a diversion might be necessary. GZ was the ONLY one to know that, that early.

      The SPD is in it up to their necks, but not with the Honda key.

      • Well, I contend the contrivance occurred during much later hours in which GZ along with Wolfinger and perhaps others who are aware, concocted this story before GZ had to do his reinactment and decided to leave evidence of it occurring. I suspect the rabbit hole is much deeper than people presume.

    • Actually, the defense is also asking for any and all audio recordings of TM from the previous three years from the Martin/Fulton family as well.

      Click to access subpeonas_dt_martins_fultons.pdf

      In another motion, the defense has asked to have a “status conference” with the state regarding the immunity hearing.

      Click to access motion_to_set_status_conference.pdf

      Given that they were denied delaying the case and the court date was set for June 10, then the immunity hearing if there is one should be completed by April 26. I guess they’re sweating now with the time crunch. Ya know, they asked for a new judge, and this is what they got. Again, careful what you ask for counsel!

        • Well, they’re fuming that they didn’t get to depose Mr. Crump on Feb 5, and they say they can’t depose Witness 8 until they talk to him. Up until now, they had been blaming the prosecution for delays. Now, they’re essentially blaming the court (Judge Nelson) for this delay. In my head, I’m imagining that Judge Nelson will rule that the affidavit that Mr. Crump provided is sufficient, because she doesn’t know Mr. O’Mara and Mr. West are chasing the treehouse’s theories that not only was Witness 8 coached but that she is one of two or three DeeDee’s recruited to be the “girlfriend” and made up the whole thing, including knowing TM since kindergarten and having to going to the hospital and missing the wake. Sit tight for a motion to subpeona her school and medical records. That would be crazy desperation.


          Click to access motion_deposition_crump.pdf

          • I said a few days ago “Sit tight for a motion to subpeona her (witness 8’s) school and medical records. That would be crazy desperation.”

            I was half kidding then, but somebody over at TCTH was just saying that Rene Stutzman of the OS tweeted that the defense is trying to subpoena her medical records, perhaps to figure out if what she said about being in the hospital during the wake was true. It’s getting more desperate and uglier by the minute. I know the defense attorneys have to work to get their client off, but they should feel icky about this.

    • Why on god’s green earth would she keep old voice mails on her cell? Also, desperatly looking for something salacious to spoot off about. Better get to work deposing expert witnesses instead of writing silly motions.

      • @2dogsonly, Well, if it’s not a voice mail then I wonder if audio from a video recording would count. Anyway, seems kinda broad to ask for ALL recordings. Well, they got a bit of money since the Feb. 5 hearing and O’Mara’s plug at Hannity for the fund, so no excuse on getting those experts.

        However, I wonder why didn’t they ask for the recordings months ago? I’m smelling a delay tactic. Just like with the Crump/DeeDee recording, Now, I’ll bet they’re going to spend months haggling with the Martin/Fulton family about the “quality” of the recordings that they get or won’t get and say to the judge “See, they didn’t give us what we asked for, grant us a motion to continue!” Right, don’t think Judge Nelson will go for that.

        BTW, good to read you again. Been kinda slow here, and I was beginning to think even the lurkers have gone. A few BCCList regulars are over at Whonoze’s blog, but I still like to kick back here.

        • I like it here better too.
          I think the defense team is getting desperate. If they want to keep GZ off the stand, they will need more than they have now. I am sure they can find an “expert” who is willing to claim Trayon is not the one screaming, but they will need a sample of his voice.

    • I have been lurking there recently and reading all that. He states the witnesses for GZ are more credible than the prosecutions’ witnesses. Has anyone figured out who these credible witnesses for GZ are??? Would that be W11 and W20 who claim they never looked outside? W11 independently corroborates DeeDee, but somehow GZ supporters just want to deny this fact, and rather argue that SPD told Ben Crump openly and freely just told the family and their lawyers all the details… Then Ben Crump found 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 DeeDee’s and fed them all this info, so they could make sweet little Georgie look bad. Oh, and Ben Crump real connected, cuz he can get folk to falsify phone records and tamper with the phone to make poor little Georgie look real, real bad some more. Yeah, that’s the more logical and probable answer. Please… GZ supporters like to claim that W11 is gonna blow the case against GZ wide open when she says he was the one screaming. Ok, yeah, the lady who didn’t see him screaming, and stated she did not and would not recognize that voice as his in that situation; the woman that said that the voices could have belonged to anybody, and initially thought it was a group of men. The lady who only said it was GZ’s voice based on what she chit-chatted with her neighbors and the SPD about. Yup, that’s some real credible shit right there. Oh, don’t even get me started on John. That guy is so easily impressionable, it’s ridiculous. Let’s face it, John only heard the voices after his wife mentioned she thought she heard something. He was watching tv and was annoyed there was people messing around out there. He probably yelled out the window and went back in just to get the people to go the fuck away. You don’t see a beat down then take your sweet time to get to a phone. Who sees a full on beat down then describes it as wrestling?! No one saw a beat down when they were on the ground in John’s yard. That guy can’t even get the simplest detail straight. It was a 5 minutes fight. I’m going to say I saw all this stuff, but I was only there for like 10 seconds then later described it as 1…2…then turned around and went back inside. I was outside, no inside, no… It was wrestling, it was MMA (he admits he watches MMA), it was just pinning. He was mounted, no they were laying completely one on top the other (not mounted). They were on concrete, no yard, no concrete… An imaginative, easily impressionable guy who chit-chatted with his neighbors and SPD who can’t get simple things straight… An unreliable witness is not a good or credible witness for anything. Some people from the SPD who didn’t have all the facts, yet? Who gives a fuck what they say if they hadn’t even finished an investigation. His family, are they credible witnesses? It’s already known they will mislead and lie for him. Sorry for the rant, but seriously, what credible witnesses for George???

      GZ said he continued to call for help after he shot TM. He said TM shot up and said “You got me” or “You got it” and was fighting and cursing, yet none of that seems to be capture on any recorded 911 calls. HMMM. Oh, maybe because it didn’t happen. Maybe because it was TM wailing. Maybe because witnesses were out within mere seconds and didn’t hear any of that shit. About 5-10 seconds and Selma was outside. You’d think she would have heard or seen what GZ describes after the shot, but nah. Why do you think George didn’t mention Selma or Mary? Hm, maybe cuz he was caught in his mess. He mentions Jon as the first witness he interacted with after the shot, and he lied about what he said and did there, too, LOL.

      Btw, I know it’s only what MO (not MOM) said, but if George really did see, make eye contact with, and scream directly to three people that came outside during the struggle…tell me, how does GZ with blood in his eyes, coming out his ears, going down his throat, having a big dude on him, smashing in his skull, going unconscious have the ability to scream or see… I mean, during all this, he supposedly saw people down south on the path (according to MO statement about 3 people coming out during the altercation)? Even if we just think about John coming out, how do you see anybody at all with some big dude on top pummeling in your face and head?

      If you were a big, bad thug…would you ignore, run/walk/skip away, and then ask questions before dealing out a beat down you, as just an angry, criminal, punk who felt disrespected, wanted to give someone, or would you more likely take your first opportunity, use the full can of AZ drink you have since it’s gonna cause more damage quicker and with less effort, and then try to jack the suckers vehicle, so you can render your beat down AND get a nice, new, vehicle to get the fuck outta the area??? My apologies for the run-on sentence, but if I were a thug, I’d probably pick the 2nd scenario. I mean, according to GZ, TM KNEW he called the cops…so, TM wanted to get caught mugging/beating GZ? OKAY!!!

      Long rant, but really…GZ supporters seems to have some really fanciful ideas.

      • Also, I’m going to add, while I strongly criticize GZ supporters…there are some TM supporters equally as ridiculous. GZ is no criminal mastermind, IMO. Some people believe he knew TM was at the retreat all along and had been watching TM for days as prey with the intent to murder the coon. That, to me, is just as nuts and unreasonable as thinking TM lured GZ out of the car and between the houses just so he could attack. He waited all that time just to attack? What, was he trying to make his approach and attack more suspenseful by making GZ wait around outside not knowing what was about to come?

        • I think you have the wrong impression of what’s being said about TM being tracked during the week he was at RATL. No one has said specifically who did this tracking, just that it’s suspected for various reasons. No one is postulating that GZ is a genius who planned everything to a t. What is being said is that more than just himself had a hand in what happened. We’re speculating on how it could have happened and at times substituting various players at various positions at different points in time to see if anything works, or to determine what data needs to be searched for, to either confirm or refute any given theory. In short it’s a process, you seem to be saying that because some of it doesn’t seem practical to you, you don’t think we should be bothering with it.

          What we know today is because it is the surviving theory of a passel of other theories we were able to discard for one reason or another.

          • I don’t think you should begin with a theory. You lay out the evidence, and connect the dots.
            There really is no evidence another person was with GZ during the incident. There is evidence he was alone in the car when he was watching Trayvon and making his nen call. Trayvon could see him clearly, and communicated he only saw one person in the car to Dee Dee.

            Multiple witnesses were watching when the incident was taking place, nobody saw a third person.

            It is very likely somebody contacted GZ about Trayvon, because Dee Dee’s statement about when Trayvon arrived at mailboxes, the phonerecords, and the clubhouse videos, contradict GZ’s story about when and where he saw Trayvon.

            There is a peak in traffic in front of the clubhouse at the time GZ gets there. It is possible another person driving another car, was patrolling with GZ. But it could have been anybody living or visiting the complex. However if there was a second car patrolling the area, they split up and that car was not on TTL when GZ called the nen.

          • “No one has said specifically who did this tracking, just that it’s suspected for various reasons.”

            “No one is postulating that GZ is a genius who planned everything to a t.”

            No one? So, you have read each and every single comment on the internet about this case to where you can say NO ONE has said these things? Actually, yes, many people have stated word for word in various forums these exact things as if they were the facts.

            “In short it’s a process, you seem to be saying that because some of it doesn’t seem practical to you, you don’t think we should be bothering with it.”

            Where the hell do you get this shit? I CLEARLY said that I have problems with people making up stories stating them as fact when they are unsupported. Anyone is free to speculate on anything they’d like, but making up ridiculous stories based on no evidence or weak evidence and stating them as fact does no good for either side. Not sure why you think I said anything other than this.

        • I agree with you about some of the theories on the Trayvon side.
          I do think GZ received a tip abou Trayvon because he got there so much later than Trayvon. I don’t think it was Osterman or Taffe, but another person who lived in the community. Somebody who could see Trayvon from their window or one of the six cars that passed by the mail area between 6:54 and 7:06 pm.

          GZ is a coward and a bully. His ex-girlfriend said GZ would never put himself in a dangerous position. The middle-eastern co-worker said he’d thought GZ would go after someone who he perceived as weak. He said he didn’t think the incident would’ve happened if Trayvon had been a muscular 30 year old black man.

          I suspect GZ did drink alcohol that evening, his speech is slurred and sounds a bit different than during other calls. He got the address of the clubhouse wrong and that may have been the reason he couldn’t think of the name of the street, although he was not looking for an address when he jumped out of his car.
          It is possible that when Trayvon started to run, GZ was emboldened by the idea Trayvon was scared.

          GZ is a control freak. The chained office chair is a good example. He has issues when his authority is challenged by people he considers subordinate to him. You can hear it in his voice when Singleton challenged him. But he submits completely to people he thinks are more powerful than he is. Yes, sir. No, sir. If GZ decides to testify, I hope Corey will do the cross. We will get to see the guy we heard in the nen call.

          GZ may have been disappointed when Trayvon ran and he thought he’d lost him. I think he snapped when he saw Trayvon again.

          Trayvon turned around and questioned GZ. First challenge to his authority. Any reasonable adult acting as a NW would’ve seen that as a good opening for an
          introduction and a moment to allow Trayvon to introduce himself. GZ probably pushed Trayvon when he refused to answer him. I think what Dee Dee meant to say when she said “somebody pushed Trayvon, I could hear the grass”, she heard a gasp. I don’t know what grass sounds like.

          GZ most likely tried to detain Trayvon. Trayvon’s screams must have pissed him off even more. It probably was GZ who said “shut the fuck up”.

          Why did he kill him? Probably anger because his authority was challenged, but it is also possible he realized the police should be there any minute, and that he was about to receive another assault charge ending what ever hope he had to become a police officer.

          I think this moment with Singleton is one of the most telling about GZ’s state of mind.

      • @qetno

        Your “rant post” was right on target.
        While I may disagree with some theories put out there, by either side, I try very hard to maintain civility to disagree respectfully. With all the known evidence to date, as you have put so well in your post, makes gz supporters go through other various routes, which you and others are aware of.

        I thank you for your post.

      • Nice rant. You covered most of my issues.
        I can deal with arguments about the evidence, but I get so angry reading some of that stuff, I start spitting fire. That is why I stay away from pro GZ sites.

    • I find it very difficult to stay calm, when I read things like that.

      I replied to your reaction to my northern route theory on Whonoze’s blog. I would like to have a reasoned discussion about it. It has been driving me crazy that almost everybody assumes Trayvon ran south.

      This hasn’t been some wild theory I came up with. I decided it was very unlikely Trayvon ran south a long time ago. I’ve been arguing with Willisnewton about this since April, before the first evidence dump. All the evidence that has been made public, has only convinced me more that Trayvon did not run south.

      I want to know what happened. I am not stuck to a theory if a better theory is presented. I like how you reason and present your arguments and I would like to show you how I came to my conclusion.

      In this case we only have a couple of solid datapoints; the location where Trayvon’s body was found, the evidence scattered around his body.
      Trayvon and GZ could’ve traveled in all kinds of directions, but they have to meet up about 40 ft south of the T about 4 minutes after Trayvon ran away.

      According to Dee Dee, Trayvon told her GZ was following him again and he was getting closer. That sounds like GZ was behind Trayvon.
      Dee Dee said she urged Trayvon to run, but instead she hears him say ” what are you following me for?”. If GZ was behind him, Trayvon must have turned around to face GZ. Dee Dee believes the altercation began almost immediately, and she can only hear “a little bit”. It is possible the headset came off, it is also possible that is when the phone fell.

      Now look at this picture again, tag 7 is Trayvon’s phone, tag 5 is GZ’s flashlight. Trayvon’s phone is south of GZ’s flashlight.

      "five six seven shot"

      I think GZ followed Trayvon from the T to the dog walk, and Trayvon turned around to ask GZ why he was following him.

      Many paths are possible, but I am convinced that Trayvon started walking south on the dog walk from the T about 4 minutes after he ran and GZ followed him there.

      Do you agree with this part of my analysis? And if not how do you think they ended up there?

  25. Amsterdam,
    “,,,I think GZ followed Trayvon from the T to the dog walk, and Trayvon turned around to ask GZ why he was following him…”

    I can’t see Trayvon being free to be a the T at that time…. because where was GZ?
    According to him he was up and down the top path at LEAST the entire time of the NEN call from the “ok” (stop following). No matter where he went while the call was on, Trayvon could not come back to the T while GZ was on it.

    So GZ has to be off the paths, say headed for his truck, when Trayvon heads for the T. Far enough off for Tray to not see him. YET he must somehow be able to turn around and notice Trayvon, to be able to go back and start following him.

    This implies GZ decides to hide somewhere off the top path, waiting for Trayvon to show up. When he “don’t know where this kid is at” and that hiding position cuts off exactly 99% of his “visual” possibilities, that would be a poor decision.

    He does not genuinely head for the truck and accidentally turn and notice Trayvon……. his sudden brightening up when he said “get them to call me” indicates he’s got an inkling where Trayvon might be and he has no intention of returning to the vehicle.

    So my difficulty with this is, if Trayvon went north originally, yes he could be back at the T about when he tells DeeDee the guy’s behind him again. BUT WHERE WAS GEORGE?

    Earliest possible: GZ is really at TopPath & RVC “getting an address” when he glimpses Trayvon (or a shadow that might be him) at the far north of RVC. He could “hide in the bushes” so he can follow Trayvon if he continues down RVC. Oddly, Trayvon goes to the T instead. This puts GZ in a position behind him. BUT THIS IS TOO SOON by at least a minute.

    Next possible: GZ heads back towards the truck. Trayvon comes down the top of RVC and turns onto the path. GZ looks back and sees him, but Trayvon doesn’t see him. Likely?? how come?? true this also puts GZ behind Trayvon, but still TOO SOON .

    Instead of continuing on the better lit RVC to the front of Brandi’s house, why would Trayvon turn backwards, to the darker doggie path and the direction he last saw his pursuer in?

    Where was GZ exactly where he was NOT visible to Trayvon for long enough for Trayvon to feel it okay to walk to the T? let’s not forget the “call me when they get here” indicates GZ already spotted Trayvon before the NEN call ended, so he would NOT be going south checking the cut-through etc.

    The phone would easily fall on first contact, especially if dragged by the headset wire. GZ’s grip on the flashlight would be a bit stronger and last longer. So their relative positions say nothing about which direction they got there from. In fact, both could have been moved about easily, on slippery wet grass, in the course of a rolling fight.

    • @aussie

      I wrote a lengthy reply and lost all of it when I tried to copy a link.
      I am going to break my reply in parts.

      We just can’t know the exact movements of GZ and Trayvon. There are too many variables. That is why I keep going back to what we do know and work back from that there.

      We know GZ and Trayvon met up again 40 ft south of the T between 7:15:30 pm and 7:16:00 pm.

      Another thing I learned from the clubhouse videos, is the approximate location of GZ and Trayvon when Trayvon started running at 7:11:40 pm.

      I don’t know if you’ve had the opportunity to watch the video I linked you to on Whonoze’s blog. But let me give you some additional pointers to watch in this video.

      I lined up Dave’s movements with the light events in the eph and ep video. I am quite sure that the car that stopped facing the mail area, stopped after it began rounding the bend. The headlights disappear from the ep video, like they do with other cars driving west on TTL once they’ve started on the south north leg of TTL. Immediately following that, you can see light on the pavement in front of the eph, but unlike other cars driving towards the north gate, no car passes the eph. The lights don’t stay on, which probably indicates GZ turned off his lights.

      I edited in part of Dave’s walk thru beginning at the mail area, walking towards the cut-thru. I have Dave leaving the mail area, when GZ says ” now he is coming towards me. GZ’s car would’ve blocked Trayvon from walking in a straight line. Trayvon would’ve have to pass GZ’s car either from the left or right. If Trayvon went right, he would’ve crossed the path leading from the mail area and he would’ve been in view of the eph video. But we don’t see him in the eph video.

      We don’t see the rearlights we associate with a car driving east on TTL. But we can hear GZ’s moving in his seat and the gear. This is also the first time GZ is giving specific directions to TTL. I am quite sure he followed Trayvon in his car. His lights may still have been off, or he made a y turn and was hugging the curb with his car.

      If Trayvon was walking to the right of GZ, on the street, it would’ve made sense for him to run south on TTL.
      I think it is more likely Trayvon was walking on the grass next to the houses. Trayvon was probably a little further than Dave, when GZ says ” shit, he is running”.

    • These are the boundaries of whatever path they took.

      Let’s assume Trayvon is running towards the cut-through. We can hear GZ immediately stop his car and open the door. There has been some speculation about the sound of a second car door closing. I don’t believe there was another person with GZ in the car, but there is a softer sound right before GZ closes his door.

      I’ve checked some videos about the Ridgeline to get a better idea about the sounds we hear in the nen. The sound could’ve been the closing of the glove compartiment but I think it is more likely the opening of a sliding cover of a console, between the front seats.
      That console offers the most likely space to keep a gun or a flashlight.

      I think it is possible GZ wasn’t looking at Trayvon for just a couple of seconds, he may have missed seeing Trayvon go into that last gap between those houses.

      GZ is running for about 27 seconds. I timed Dave walking from where GZ said he parked his car to RVC. I had to use 2 seperate parts of the video to do that. It took Dave between 50 and 55 seconds to cover the distance. Running speed would be about half that time. That makes me believe GZ ran to RVC. I do think GZ believed Trayvon ran in that direction. We immediately hear tapping noises, so I assume GZ was not moving around right after he stopped running.

      • OKAY, say GZ does run straight through to RVC. He actually says he went there, it’s just the 2+ minutes after that he’s not explaining. This makes sense. He can see down the doggie path of his way, to see there’s nobody there.

        Then it makes sense to go down RVC and check into the 2 cut-throughs from RVC back to the doggie path. This eliminates an area where the quarry may still be. So, say he’s at the southerly cut-through when he hears Trayvon (phone rings? hears him talk?) so tells the cops to call him when they get there.

        Then Trayvon emerges from HIS cut-through (the middle doggie – TTL one) which puts GZ to the south of him, “cornered” as DeeDee says. So north is the only way he can safely hope to get away. “Back way” to his Dad’s then would be a plan to go north to the T and back down RVC to the front door.

        We have no physical evidence for the preceeding two paragraphs. We do have one witness claiming figures moving south to north about 10 ft apart.

        The problem with the “Trayvon went north” theory is, that and GZ running through to RVC puts GZ always AHEAD of Trayvon (south of him). There’s no mechanism by which a few minutes later, just before the confrontation DeeDee hears, they’d swap positions so that GZ is behind Trayvon going south on the doggie path.

        • I’m sorry. I had to make some calculations and I didn’t have time yesterday.

          GZ was fiddeling around with something after he stopped running, so let’s assume he stayed at the end of the cut-through on RVC until the end of the call. The call ended at 7:13:41, about 2 minutes before they were at the location where Trayvon was killed. I see no reason for GZ to stay at that spot, and his request to the dispatcher to have the officer call him, seems to indicate he had no intention to stay put.
          Dee Dee said GZ sounded out of breath and Trayvon indicated to her that GZ was gaining on him. So it seems likely that GZ was running or jogging towards Trayvon, after he spotted him.

          Let’s use my theory that Trayvon ran north and moved behind the houses bordering Oregan ave., before he started heading back towards the cut-through.

          That would mean GZ should’ve seen him somewhere between these 2 points.

          That part of Trayvon’s path is about 200 ft. DeeDee said he was walking, so let’s assume 3.5 ft per second. That would mean it took Trayvon about 57 seconds to get to the location where he was killed.

          I’ll put up 2 scenarios in follow up comments

        • Scenario 1
          This scenario is based on the theory that GZ followed Trayvon on the dog walk heading south from the T.
          GZ walked south on RVC after he got off the phone. The farthest point south on RVC GZ could have walked and still make it back within 2 minutes after he got off the phone, is approx 140 ft south of the cut-through. The distance from the entrance of the cut-through on RVC is also 140 ft. If I use 3.5 ft per second as the average walking speed and 7ft per second for running, GZ would’ve walked south for 80 seconds and ran towards the place of the incidence in 40 covering the 280 ft.

          Trayvon walked according to Dee Dee, so at the time that GZ started running towards Trayvon, he would’ve been 140 ft away from the location where he was killed.

          The beginning of the red line on RVC is where Trayvon would’ve been when GZ started to run. The beginnining of the yellow line is where GZ started running.

  26. It’s been awhile since I thought about the nuthouse (and it’s been refreshing lemme tell ya), but this state’s response to the defense about the chain of custody of TM cell phone (which doesn’t have any new information except where it’s been but it affirms that it was TM’s phone) just has me laughing my hiney off as I remember all of their jib jab about the heart phone belonging to a little girl, that there were possibly two different phones, etc etc.

    Click to access response_motion_discovery_cell.pdf

    • @WSI
      Thanks for posting the links.
      I don’t think she was wearing a BPV. That may have caused her to look stiff, maybe. IDK

      • Come to think of it, back when I was reading Odessa Girl’s posts, I think she mentioned that Shellie had contracted Lyme Disease and was on steroids, which contributed to her looking rather puffy (more than just a weight thing). A stiff neck is also a symptom of that condition. While I don’t take much stock in her posts about anything regarding evidence in the case, I don’t have a reason to think that she would make that up.

        • @WSI

          I don’t want to start any rumors. God forbid. That is not my style.
          But do you think maybe the reason she may have been walking tall and stiff, is because she is pregnant.

          I remember way way way back when I was pregnant, I walked a little taller and being proud to be carrying, just a thought that came through my head.

          • @Loree, forget feeling bad about starting a rumor, I need a squeegie to clear the mental image you put in my head of the two of them holed up in their safehouse with nothing to do but eat and ……well, you know. Just kidding. Her tall and proud stance could be just the response to the cameras and attention. But I know what you mean about being pregnant and walking tall. For me, it was more about letting it all hang out and not worrying about having to suck it in because I had an excuse for a big belly, lol.

            • @WSI

              So sorry, for that mental imagine. Squeegie is on me along with any cleansers that may be needed. 🙂

              I was thinking, from a pure speculation point, GZ might of made the case to her that he will face the possibilty ( I hope he does) of alot of jail time and the thought of her having his child will be the ultimate thing she can do to show she really supports him. It also does a couple of other things for them. Garner sympathy for her in the perjury case, and his case as well. The thought of bringing a child into the world based on this reasoning in this assumption fits his profile , sorta speak.

            • @Loree, all kidding aside, I doubt that now would be the time that she would choose to have a baby. They had been married for a number of years already, and if fertility was not an issue then she/they purposefully delayed or did not want to have kids yet. Despite her outwards support of her husband, you gotta think/hope/wish that deep down she’s got to realize the possibility of him going away for a very long time, and she’s in no financial position to support a kid on her own.

            • @WSI
              She did make the decision to not have children up to this point and have been married for five years, so that conveys more credit to your reasoning for her not to choose to bear children with him.
              >>>Despite her outwards support of her husband, you gotta think/hope/wish that deep down she’s got to realize the possibility of him going away for a very long time, and she’s in no financial position to support a kid on her own.

              Totally agree, but I do find that people make the craziest decisions when situations like this arise, especially when the possiblity of jail looms nearby.

  27. Amsterdam, if GZ has gone down RVC as far as the cut-through, why would he run back up?

    The biggest argument against your Scenario 1 is that you have GZ spotting Trayvon after he’s hung up the NEN call and run/jogged a fair way south on RVC. But the “get them to call me” indicates he spotted or heard Trayvon BEFORE he hung up, in fact he was in a hurry to hang up precisely to be able to chase him.

    Apart from that, say he’s done the RVC walk while on the phone, if he sees Trayvon crossing onto the top path, he could just go through the cut-through to the doggie path, and watch. (Oh and how come Trayvon doesn’t see him? he’s the one with the flashlight).

    If Trayvon crosses the T and heads towards TTL, he can then run up the doggie path (same distance as on RVC) or, better still, go through to TTL on another cut-through, again getting a good view of whether Trayvon is going south on TTL or back towards the mailboxes.

    By running back up RVC, all he’d achieve is that, if Trayvon keeps going through to TTL, he’d lose him again.

    If Trayvon turns onto the doggie path, GZ just has to lie low in the cut-through he’s watching from, until Trayvon gets there.

    I do agree going south on RVC is a likely route for GZ. But I’m more inclined to think he went as far as the second cut-through. In my scenario Trayvon is resting up/talking in one of the cut-throughs on the TTL side, and GZ sees him when he emerges from it, feeling safe.

    But yes, he may as easily be walking down the path from the T, having detoured north first. But either way, I believe GZ followed from the RVC cut-through, not from the T.

    I really don’t see GZ running down and up RVC, for the same reason I don’t see him trying to cut Trayvon off by car (if he saw Trayvon heading south)…..the centre backyard area is a box with several exits on both sides. The only way to control it is to sweep one side to ensure that side is clear; that means the quarry can be only on the doggie path or cut-throughs on the other side. The width of the area is much less than the length, so travelling in it cross-ways (possible only on foot) enables fairly fast visuals on both the outer perimeter roads.

    So having ensured RVC is clear, GZ would not go running back up RVC. He’d cut through to check the middle (doggie) path and, if necessary, all the way through to check TTL. He knows that area like the back of his hand, despite not remembering the name of the street. And he’s probably observed other people around there in the past.

    • All valid points you are making. This is but one scenario. By the way
      GZ was walking going south on RVC not running. I timed it to show Trayvon’s position when GZ started to run, in order for them to arrive at the location of the incident at the same time. It may not have been clear to GZ Trayvon was heading towards the cut through and not heading west on RVC.

      One of the reasons I have a hard time GZ finding Trayvon hiding somewhere on the dog walk, is the fact that he had a flashlight. The other problem I have with Trayvon just running for at most 30 seconds and then lounging around for 3.5 minutes, chatting with his girlfriend is that it is not consistent with her statements.
      But if you tell me exactly what your scenario is, I’ll map it out using the same metrics I used in mine.

      I don’t agree that GZ spotted Trayvon when he wanted to get off the phone. I agree he wanted to continue his hunt for Trayvon and that is probably why he sounded distracted. He loved playing cops with the dispatcher. If he’d seen Trayvon while still on the phone, I suspect he would’ve said something like ” I can see him now”.
      He took the time to make sure the dispatcher had his phonenumber. But he was probably already heading in the direction he intended, when he sounded distracted.

      It definitely would be impossible for GZ to have spotted Trayvon when he sounded distracted, in your scenario. At least if I understand you right.

      Here is my 2nd scenario GZ heading back to his car after he ended
      the nen call.
      It would’ve taken him about 55 sec to walk back to his car from RVC. He may have stopped at the T and at the gap in the cut-through. He may even have gotten into his car. From his car it would have taken him about 27 sec to get to the place of the incidence. That is about 80 sec, 30 to 40 sec before the met up again. Assume he stopped briefly at the T and at the gap before he got into his car. It took him 8 sec to get out of his car the first time.

      If we add the 8 sec to the running time, he must have spotted
      Trayvon 35 sec before they meet. If Trayvon re-entered the T, this
      is where Trayvon would’ve been if GZ spotted him from his car.

      Red is Trayvon, yellow GZ.

      Red is Trayvon and Yellow GZ.

      • Typing on an IPad. When my comments get long, I just don’t get to see my entire reply. That is the reason for the repeated final sentence and link.

      • Too tired right now to mentally follow routes and times. But just a few quick replies to some points about mindsets.

        Flashlight: if Trayvon is hiding, he could be where the light doesn’t reach (eg cut-through). Or GZ, familiar with the lie of the land, doesn’t USE it, not to give his quarry warning of his approach/whereabouts. This would be why he used to patrol around with his headlights off, according to one witness.

        Spotted him while still on the NEN: well, no, he would not necessarily say so. Not if it was somewhere Sean told him he’s not “needed”. Also not if he’s only heard him and has to go get “visual” on him first. And also not if he wants to catch him to be the hero, without having Sean telling what else they don’t need him to do.

        Emotions in the voice: he almost agrees to return to his truck, in a dejected tone of voice. Then he sounds distracted, like he’s walking or thinking about something else while trying to talk. Then he sounds suddenly brighter and says “call me back” in a big hurry to end the call.

        I see your point about where was Trayvon lounging about, when Deedee says he was puffed from running. I’ll have to think about that again with the times in front of me.

        • Just learned from the discovery that Chad called Trayvon to ask when he was coming back. Trayvon answered that he was on his way home.

          This could mean that Chad was monitoring the phone, since that was how Trayvon was planning to be let back into the house.

          Okay, that suggests another scenario. If Trayvon were depending on Chad to come open the door to let him in, after he called him on the phone. you can see he’d expect this exchange and response to take quite a bit of time.

          If he felt, for example that it might take Chad a minute or two to respond to his call, then if GZ was anywhere behind him, within a minute or two distant, Trayvon would not feel he had enough time to call Chad, because he could not wait a minute or two for Chad to open the door. Thus his only choice would be to continue to flee. Since he wouldn’t want to take the chance that Chad might open the door, just as GZ came upon them both.

          Trayvon may very well have made it all the way home, but still did not have enough distance between him and GZ, to complete a call and wait for Chad to open the door.

          • People had their windows and sliding glass doors open. It would make sense to me that the sliding glass door was not locked. They spend time sitting on the patio before Trayvon left for the store. W2 said she had been reading on the patio just a half hour before, kids were playing outside. They used that sliding back door the way people use a door to the backyard. They probably lock it when they leave the house or go to sleep and leave it open the rest of the time.

            • Agreed… But then, those are adults. In this case Trayvon was leaving his younger brother alone in the house, engrossed in video games. I think that as a precaution he’d want to lock up, at least until he got back. Apparently he did, because he “ran from the back”, while GZ went over to RVC to monitor the back gate. GZ must have started south on RVC, so that no one could go out the east gate while he traveled south to cut off the exit. Trayvon probably had to come around to the front door and when he did they spotted each other. Trayvon could not call Chad to the door under these conditions so he ran away from the house.

            • Lonnie
              If he had locked up, he would’ve had a key. You are making conclusions based on assumptions. We don’t know what Trayvon meant with ‘ going to run from the back because it’s more easier’.

              I don’t know what path you are suggesting, but GZ could not have walked to the back entrance and back to where Trayvon was killed in the time available. Just start measuring the distance that is really enlightening.
              You may have your hypothesis like we all do, but the fact is they could’ve taken many different paths. It was around 6 pm when Trayvon went to the store. It was still light, and people were sitting outside on their patios, and kids were playing outside. Chad was 14 and in his own home. Not a baby that needed to be locked up.
              Chad’s call was most likely the 7:04 pm call. Trayvon told him, he was almost home. But when Trayvon was killed 12 minutes later, Chad was playing video games with his headset on. It doesn’t appear that Chad was worried about letting Trayvon into the house, which leads me to conclude that Chad wasn’t worried about how Trayvon would get into the house.

  28. @WSi, or Amsterdam

    Is the kitchen of witness 20 located at the front of the house? Better yet,can someone direct me to actual floor plan.

  29. Just a little updating Shellie lost her motion for dismissal on the prejury charge, next hearing is in April. O’Mara annouced on 2/19/13 that they have raised some $30,000 for the defense fund. You should look at the picture of GZ I swear is gained so much weight, he has to be over 300 pounds and looks stoned!

    • Wow, indeed.

      I can see how Crump may be opposing counsel in a future civil case, but I don’t see how he qualifies as one in the current criminal case.

      I’m sure how thrilled I am at the prospect of a world in which a defendent, not yet convicted of anything, has to face not only the full weight and resources of the state but of anyone else who wants to pile on as well, not to mention the question of the fairness of letting Crump get in on this criminal prosecution if they, the state, ever expect to be able to turn someone down in the future who wants to climb on the bandwagon, regardless of whether they might help or actually hinder the state in their efforts at a conviction.

      The worms hear the can opener warming up and are preparing to make a break for it as soon as they see daylight.

      Another issue to be considered. Anything Crump discussed with Trayvon’s parents might be privileged, but by interviewing the young lady, and putting what he claims are the results of the interview “out there”, he’s created evidence in the case (and contributed to that to which potential jurors might have been exposed) and he’s part of that evidence, and since the young lady is not his client, I don’t see that he has anything to hide behind with regard to that just because he’s an attorney.

      I take it back about the can of worms.

      This is going to be a truck load.


      • @Uni

        Wrote in part:

        Another issue to be considered. Anything Crump discussed with Trayvon’s parents might be privileged, but by interviewing the young lady, and putting what he claims are the results of the interview “out there”, he’s created evidence in the case (and contributed to that to which potential jurors might have been exposed) and he’s part of that evidence, and since the young lady is not his client, I don’t see that he has anything to hide behind with regard to that just because he’s an attorney.

        Respectfully disagree. He did not “create” evidence. When the phone records became available to Tracey and Sabrina, and subsquently found out that DeeDee was the last person to call Travyon. Crump redoubled his efforts in helping the family of seeking justice in the killing of their son when no arrest came about. He sought out the young lady to get only what she heard on tape. By introducing the young lady’s interview was to show the State and any other parties involved that there is an ear witness to Trayvon’s state of mind and his perceptions of the man following him at the given time.

        He is allowed to do this for the family.

        He is not the attorney for the young lady, you are correct. But I think what defense counsel seeks is beyond the scope. He can only be deposed to the time of interview, how long, how he found her. That’s it. He doesn’t have to answer anything thing beyond that. He may not be deposed at all. Blackwell’s reponse to O’mara/State was more then adequate that his motion for deposition should be denied.

        • I forget to add that by “seeking” out evidence to help the Martin/Fulton family in regards to obtaining an arrest does not constitue imo “creating” evidence. By looking at the phone records led him to her and led him to find out other relevant data. That is not creating, that is due diligence on Mr. Crump behalf of the family.

          • @Uni

            Wrote in part:

            I’m sure how thrilled I am at the prospect of a world in which a defendent, not yet convicted of anything, has to face not only the full weight and resources of the state but of anyone else who wants to pile on as well, not to mention the question of the fairness of letting Crump get in on this criminal prosecution if they, the state, ever expect to be able to turn someone down in the future who wants to climb on the bandwagon, regardless of whether they might help or actually hinder the state in their efforts at a conviction.

            The world we live in is not perfect.

            Considering the amount of funding the defendant had in his coffers ($314,000 and some change) would have given him more then the average defendant alot more weight in regards to affording him the best defense money can buy.

            The defendant can claim indigency and the state will pay for his defense.

            We all have certain rights. The family has the right to go after GZ, the HOA and and other person(s) they deemed accountable for their son’s death. That is their right, and they should and will excercise those rights.

            Gz is afforded the right of innoncent till proven gulity in a court of law.

            The blogosphere is not a court of law.

        • Attorney Crump’s discovery and deposition of DD is his work product and thus is privileged. That would not have been the case if there had been a criminal investigation and/or prosecution underway at that time. But, since there was no further actions save a pending review by the DA who had already stated a position, Attorney Crump was the only opposing council and entitled to conduct investigations, with any discoveries becoming his work product, to do with as he pleased and/or believed to be appropriate. Attorney Crump will win this motion.

      • That is the legal system. GZ didn’t seem to have a problem, when he filed a lawsuit agaist NBC.

        If Trayvon were my child, I would make it my life’s purpose to make sure GZ would get the maximum punishment allowed within the law.
        As a parent I would feel I owe that to my child.

      • Attorney Crump is not just anyone, nor is he ineligible as an opposing attorney. We must not forget that at the point when Attorney Crump entered there was no criminal case and even the police investigation was announce by the Chief as having concluded. Attorney Crump enters then as opposing council and he never loses that title simply because he managed to get the State to pick up and pursue the criminal case.

            • Counsel means lawyer or attorney.

              A decision is not a lawyer.

              If Trayvon’s parents had filed a suit against Wolfinger over his not having, to that point, charged Zimmerman with anything (assuming that’s even allowed under Florida law), then Crump might be considered opposing counsel as he would be in opposition to Wolfinger or whoever would be representing Wolfinger in that suit.

              But there was no such suit.

              You can’t be opposing counsel unless there’s a counsel on the other side of some sort of legal case that’s at least on it’s way to court or arbitration of some sort.

              It’s like trying to have a flashlight battery with a positive terminal but no negative terminal.


            • Confused. Crump is representing Martin and Fulton and the Estate of TM. So, in a sense he is opposing counsel, no?

            • Not until his clients actually file an action against someone, at which point he is opposing counsel to whoever is counsel for whoever the action is against.

              Even if one accepts the notion that Crump can somehow be a part of the prosecution team, at the time he interviewed the young lady there was no prosecution team because no charges had been filed at that time.

              You can’t be opposing counsel without another counsel to oppose, and at the time of the interview, there was none.


            • Only a legal matter isn’t a battery it has no positive or negative pole and it doesn’t run on current. The point is he’s an opponent, opposing the decision not to charge by any legal method that’s available to him. He can’t sue Wolfinger because he has immunity. He can’t sue to force the SPD to charge, they have the right to do as they choose. All he can do is raise the political “temperature” to where he gets a reaction.
              He is opposing GZ who is not being charged. As the opposition stated, it doesn’t matter that the opponent doesn’t have an attorney. And they were right, they won!

              The materials being sought were the work product of an attorney representing the opposition! The motion to depose is denied.

            • One cannot be an opposing counsel without another counsel on the other side of the case so that there’s someone to whom to be in opposition.

              You can’t have one without the other.

              You can be someone’s counsel. You can be opposed to whatever. But that does not make one an opposing counsel if there is no counsel on the other side of the issue to whom you’ll be in opposition.

              And since there had been no charges filed at the time of the young lady’s interview, there was no issue on the other side of which was a counsel to oppose.

              This has been the understood definition of the phrase for as long as the phrase has existed.


            • Your argument is simply a repetitious recital of the matter I’ve already answered. Repeating a failed argument does not breath new life into it or make it any stronger.

              As I said before, Attorney Crump is an Attorney in opposition to the interests of George Zimmerman. As such he is an Attorney in opposition and should therefore not be deposed from that view and that the materials he generated during his work for Trayvon’s parents, are his work product.

              Okay, the judge in this case had made exactly that same ruling. She rules that Attorney Crump is an attorney in opposition by interest. She cites case law to support her ruling. You have argument but without case law to support it. Thus your views have been overruled.

            • i am aware of the correct and long accepted definition of the term “opposing counsel”, and use it correctly.

              You, apparently, are not (or you are but deliberately ignore it), and mis-use it.

              What you think you gain by doing so I’m still not quite sure.

        • IF someone sensibly gets a lawyer BEFORE speaking to the police, does that lawyer become opposing counsel? when there hasn’t even been a single police interview yet?

          Are we all opposing counsel because we’re not taking GZ’s side?

          Crump is representing the interests of Trayvon’s parents, which they are entitled to under Florida law. However they themselves are not a “party” to the case against GZ…. that is FLORIDA vs GZ. All the witnesses are allowed to get lawyers to help them, as one or two did before giving their statements to police, and those don’t become opposing counsel either.

          It is the witnesses who are involved in the case. Their attorneys are not involved…they are just “hand-holders” for the witnesses/other parties.

          Crump is now going to be a witness for the court, ONLY on the subject of how he got to find the witness DeeDee. This was the ruling of Judge Nelson. He cannot be deposed on any other topic, nor can he be forced to hand over any work product, nor questioned abut what he’s done for the Martins.

          The only “opposing counsels” are those working directly for the prosecution and those working directly for the defence, not those tangentially involved in holding the hands of witnesses. Otherwise next they’d want to depose some attorney working for some witness in some case they have for suing their employer????

          • Well, originally, off the top of my head, I believed that he would be considered “opposing counsel” because he was hired to support the oppositional interests. That being, the interests against the suspect not being charged.

            After listening to the Judge, who made her ruling, citing authority, she says that “opposition in interest” is sufficient to be opposing counsel at law. Apparently this is settled case law so it doesn’t need to be re litigated.

    • I think it’s funny that Mr. Crump’s lawyer is in effect daring the defense to say publicly why they said that they must depose Mr. Crump before deposing witness 8 and to say what information they think he might have relevant to the case that would not violate his work product for the Martin/Fulton family. It’s a conundrum for the defense really. If they came out and said “We think Mr. Crump is lying or hiding stuff about about x, y and z” then they will look foolish by accusing him of such things in public without substantiation, but yet they feel like they have to chase such non-sense suspicions.

      • Yes, it does seem that way. Blackwell is no slouch. I had such a different impression of O’mara in April of 2012. Now I just don’t understand how a lawyer can do the things he does. How is writing a missive to Johnathan Capehart, constructive use of his time? I just don’t get what O’mara is doing. I wonder if he has violated some ethic laws. I am not familar so I don’t know. I do know that defense attorneys are notorious for bullshitting and going on in front of cameras, but what he is doing just goes beyond the pale for me.

        • I forgot to mention, from the last part of the response:

          V. Conclusion
          For the foregoing reasons, the Court should not countenance
          the efforts of this victim’s admitted killer to prepare his defense
          on the borrowed wits of his parents’ attorney.

          The borrowed wits, in another words, do your own work counselor.
          I loved it, priceless.

        • Loree said “I had such a different impression of O’mara in April of 2012. Now I just don’t understand how a lawyer can do the things he does.”

          You can see now that with all matters sleazy (I am NOT calling these lawyers sleazy, just their approach to assembling their client’s defense, i.e., regarding TM’s phone, Witness 8, Mr. Crump, TM’s media accounts) it has been Mr. West all along..

          • Absolutely correct. He is trying to get free discovery for wrongful death and suits against SPD. . . . sleazy is exactly what it is.

            • Why would Zimmerman’s attorney’s care one way or the other about suits against the Sanford Police Department?


            • free discovery is free discovery . . . it’s a big case. Lee, SPD and Zimmerman’s lawyers are corrupt.

            • Anything against the SPD would tie in with the defence/outhouse concept that GZ should never have been charged in the first place, and was only charged because of corruption, therefore the charges should be dropped.

              Anything they might discover about plans or evidence for an eventual wrongful death suit would, obviously, help in defending against that. Or stirring more sympathy from the dwindling financial supporters.

    • MOM is crushed! He has cited no authority nor even acknowledged the “work product privilege” which would shield Attorney Crump. MOM gets another denial, his motion summarily dismissed. Once again to be Clownified* in public.

      * Clownified — to be made to look like a clown.

    • Mr. West is stumbling over answering Judge Nelson’s simple question of what relevant information they think Mr. Crump has that they need to depose him for.

      • You know what he wants, and I really hate to say this, he wants Crump (black atty) to interpet witness 8 (also black) because they can not understand her. He figures Crump would be able to clarify. That is what it boils down to, for real.

        • No, I think the “interpreting” the tape is just a small excuse. Of course, they would want to know what was said in the gaps (but Mr. Crump has already said in the affidavit that there was nothing said in those gaps), but it seems that they want to call Mr. Crump out on what they think are intentional lies to the public.

  30. @Uni

    Due to the raising cost of inflation, here are my five cents worth. 🙂
    What I gathered from the hearing, Mr. Crump would be in essence “opposing counsel” when the defense deposes the Martin/Fulton family. He will be standing/sitting right along side them, opposite the table of which the defense counsel will be sitting also. Hence the term opposing counsel.

    Even though he is not the attorney for the young lady, the defense did not meet the three prong test that Judge Nelson cited in the hearing. Counselor did not exhaust every other avenue available to the defense in regards to witness 8.

    My understanding was that they can depose Mr. Crump, if and only every other avenue was tried and failed. There still could be a very slim chance after all exhausted means were accomplished, they may get relief from the court to depose Mr. Crump. Only then may the court look over all their efforts and rule in their favor.

    The trial is 3 months and 19 days away. I would think that counsel would prefer to stay away from motions that try to delay the inevitable.

    All in all, all they have to do is depose witness 8.

    • Poor Jonathan Capehart!

      He’s desperate to call Florida’s “Justifiable Use of Force” law their “Stand Your Ground” law and O’Mara’s not willing to play along just so that Capehart can conduct an argument based on a false premise.


      • What is your argument here? Or is this just an opportunity for you to be condescending towards Capeheart?

        • The argument is that the Florida law is not officially called the Stand Your Ground law, that the part which is informally referred to by some as Stand Your Ground is just that, only a part of the overall Justifiable Use of Force law, and that despite O’Mara saying that the part of that law that pertains to Zimmerman is not that part, Capehart complains about not being able to get O’Mara to call the entire law Stand Your Ground so that he can then turn around and point to the part that doesn’t apply to Zimmerman and say that the entire law doesn’t apply to Zimmerman, when in fact the immunity part may apply and that’s the part of the law that O’Mara intended to invoke, but Capehart just ignores that.

          In other words, intellectual dishonesty.


            • Just off the top of my head I’m going to guess 776.032 with a little 776.085 thrown in as well.

              Allow me to steal someone else’s thunder from the comments section of that Capehart piece.

              I’ve added quotation marks not in the original to better show whose words are which, and added a word to the poster’s own words which I’m convinced they had intended to have there all along.

              2/22/2013 11:33 PM EST
              Capehart conveniently left off O’Mara’s full statement:

              (“) If the “Stand Your Ground” portion of the law was to be applied to the Zimmerman Case, even if George had an ability to retreat, he would not be required to do so before utilizing deadly force. In this particular case, George did not have an ability to retreat because he was on the ground with Trayvon Martin mounting him, striking blows, therefore the “Stand Your Ground” “benefit” given by the statute simply does not apply to the facts of George’s case: it is traditional self-defense. Of course, the immunity provision still does apply, and we will take full advantage of the immunity afforded by the Florida Legislature. (“)

              In other words, the fact that Zimmerman did (not) have the opportunity to retreat doesn’t mean that the statute does not apply to him and that he should not be granted immunity. To read it any other way would mean that those who have an opportunity to retreat but instead “stand their ground” are granted immunity while those who have no ability to retreat and take advantage of the statute’s provision regarding self-defense do not.



            • @unitron,

              You are accusing Capehart of intellectual dishonesty based on a comment in a blog.
              You tell me which part of the Justifiable Use of Force is SYG, and why GZ can’t claim SYG, but can claim immunity.

              Give me your legal analysis showing why Capehart is intellectually dishonest.

            • It’s right there in the column Capehart wrote.

              He doesn’t like the SYG part of Florida’s “Justifiable Use of Force” law, so he insists on calling the whole thing SYG and complains about O’Mara not going along with that, and seems to think that because O’Mara doesn’t call it SYG none of the Justifiable Use of Force law applies in Zimmerman’s case.

              For some reason he’s obsessed with getting O’Mara to use the words “Stand Your Ground” in connection with Zimmmerman.

              The SYG part deals with the issue of duty to retreat, a concept from some other law or laws.

              It’s O’Mara’s contention that, as Zimmerman was not in a position to be able to retreat, it’s pointless to pursue the question of whether or not he had a duty to, so he’s just not even going to go there.


            • O’Mara is the one who states that syg exclusively deals with the duty to retreat. According to O’Mara syg does not apply to GZ because he was unable to retreat. I don’t see that in statutes.
              If you read the immunity clause, it states the reason claimed by SPD for not arresting GZ. Maybe you remember that reason. They called it syg. Part of the syg law, is the immunity clause.
              So for O’Mara to claim SYG doesn’t apply to GZ, and at the same time stating he wants an immunity hearing, is contradictory. Capehart got it right. Or at least you haven’t offered any evidence that Capehart got it wrong other than your condescending words about him.

            • O’Mara is the defense lawyer. He stated syg didn’t apply. Can you give me a link to the SYG law?

    • Florida statute 776.013(3) says: (a) person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

      Thus does the Florida State Legislature say “Let’s let insanity prevail”. Walking down a street? See that guy over there? What is he reaching for? Obviously it’s a gun… OMG, he’s working for my wife, sweet heart, business opponent, neighbor, he’s that aggrieved restaurant or other business employee I’ve fallen out with yesterday, last week/month/year. If I don’t act quickly he’s going to shoot me dead — — —BLAM, BLAM, BLAM… Thank heaven for SYG, I didn’t have to retreat and possibly get killed later for it, because I was able to take action now.
      Then he get shot by someone coming upon the scene, seeing a man standing there with a drawn and smoking gun starting to turn towards them. And on and on and on, until the entire state is empty of people.

      What a wonderful piece of legislation, sure to depopulate the state and return it to the wilderness. It’s only a matter of time. |||=> Tick Tock! <-|||

  31. no, seriously, the clause about an aggressor states they have to indicate they have given up on their aggression, before they are allowed to fatally defend themselves against the other party’s self-defence, if that turns life-threatening. The argument seems to be that GZ was unable to retreat FROM BEING THE AGGRESSOR, because of being trapped on the ground. Of course he still could have said “ok ok I give up I am not going to harm you anymore” instead of shouting for help.

    “and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force ” and
    “In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw”

    They are trying to say this should still apply to GZ even though he was the aggressor, because he was physically unable to withdraw, therefore the provisions of Florida statute 776.013(3) quoted above by Lonnie should apply.

    “776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”

    So in a roundabout way they are ADMITTING GZ was the aggressor.

  32. The defense has always contended that Martin attacked Zimmmerman, that it was Martin who initiated physical contact.

    Their only interest in Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law is the immunity clause.

    As far as they are concerned the fact that there’s also a Stand Your Ground clause in the same overall law is just a co-incidence that’s causing them problems because of other people’s ignorance.

    Imagine you are parked on-street somewhere on a short cross street on which there are no fire hydrants, and are in disagreement with the city over whether you are parked legally or not.

    Now imagine that the law was officially known as the City Parking Ordinance, but because there was one section in it that deals with parking in front of fire hydrants, everybody keeps calling it the fire hydrant law and wants to know why you thought it was okay to park in front of a fire hydrant.


    • …the fact that there’s also a Stand Your Ground clause in the same overall law is just a co-incidence that’s causing them problems because of other people’s ignorance.

      Exactly. The phrasing is in the relevant section 776.013(3), but the law incorporates both SYG and what people would consider ‘traditional’ self-defense use of force; there isn’t any difference, only that what we’d see as SYG is a simple extension of the “castle doctrine” to just about anywhere.

      Florida Statutes, Section 776.

      The prosecution will combat 776.013(3), which, of course, the defense is based on, with the aggressor statute 776.041(2), to prove that Zimmerman was both the initial aggressor and the one who perpetuated the conflict. The defense will use the 776.041(2)(a) and (b) exceptions. And, in turn, the prosecution will present evidence that, not only did Zimmerman solely create the situation that led to the confrontation and proceeded to perpetuate it, but that at no time would a reasonable person believe he was in danger of death or grave bodily harm.

    • The motion for dismissal (776.032), or immunity hearing, is available to everyone using the 776.013 defense; reading it, one can certainly understand the initial problem with detaining or charging and arresting Zimmerman until further evidence was accumulated. People shouldn’t critize the SPD for their immediate refusal to do so.

      (There are still issues related to allegations against both the SPD and SAO of blocking any charges even when the evidence was showing huge holes in Zimmerman’s stories, and after Serino recommended, first, Murder 2, and then Manslaughter. These are evident in Santiago’s testimony and Serino’s capias drafts. For me, too, there appears to be a failure to perform a more thorough investigation until the FDLE got involved. And, lastly, although Wolfinger did call the grand jury into session, I believe he did so to save face as la merde a frappé le ventilateur, and that he wouldn’t have diligently presented the case to that grand jury).

      • unitron,

        The defense has always contended that Martin attacked Zimmmerman, that it was Martin who initiated physical contact.

        O’Mara would be a fool to rely on this alleged attack. Zimmerman is the only witness, and the ‘attack’ can only be substantiated if Zimmerman takes the stand or if the prosecutor had previously admitted any of Zimmerman’s previous statements. The prosecutor also has available the NEN call to show that Zimmerman was the aggressor that had an agenda; the time between the end of the NEN call and the sounds heard by 911 callers, showing that Zimmerman had more than enough time to walk to his truck before the confrontation began; and (for this, the prosecutor would need to introduce the relevant statement), Zimmerman’s account of his lie to Trayvon about his not having a problem and his search for his cell phone he’d only recently had in hand — leaving it highly probable that a reasonable person would feel physically threatened and response with force (hence, Trayvon would actually be the one with the right to SYG). There’s also the little problem with Zimmerman having been able to stand up without hindrance, and, insteading of running towards his truck (towards which any final confrontation would take place), he headed southward — the very direction Trayvon would naturally have taken.

        While I’m disgusted with O’Mara’s apparent attempt to try the case in public in a likely attempt to sully the jury pool, I don’t think he’s a fool. I believe his chief contention will be, while Zimmerman was “on the ground being battered by Trayvon,” at the time that escape was impossible and, of course, that he was in danger of death or grave bodily harm. (BTW, I think this ‘public/press trial,’ as well as the multitude of motions and slow-motion deposition process, is evidence that both O’Mara and West have little confidence that the prosecution can’t prove its case).

      • “For me, too, there appears to be a failure to perform a more thorough investigation until the FDLE got involved.”

        Would that be the same FDLE as the one Wolfinger called in on the 15th of March, 5 days before announcing he was going to the grand jury with it?


        • Would that be the same FDLE as the one Wolfinger called in on the 15th of March, 5 days before announcing he was going to the grand jury with it?

          Yes, in his written statement released to the media on March 20, “…areas for further investigation have been identified; and, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement has agreed to assist and has been working hard with my office since Friday March 16th.”

          Orlando Sentinal, Wolfinger Statement.

          I haven’t come across any FDLE involvement outside of the use of its lab in Orlando until Monday, March 19, but, of course, that doesn’t preclude its agents beginning work with the SAO the previous Friday. March 19 is also the date on which the USDoJ announced it would initiate its own investigation, and when Gov. Scott issued a memo to FDLE Commissioner Gerald Bailey ordering the agency to provide full assistance. And then Wolfinger released his statement on the 20th. Two days later, Wolfinger steps down from investigation and Gov. Scott appoints Angela Corey.

          Gov. Scott Memo (pdf, one page)

      • Police investigate. Prosecutors apply relevant law and decide whether to bring charges. SPD had no intentions of further investigating anything; hence TM sitting in a morgue for days unidentified. . . To them he was a dispensable Black kid. Had he been what they are attempting to portray him as, or heaven forbid a street kid, there would have been no harm or no foul. During the days after the murder their only concern was Zimmerman’s family connections to SPD. . . and the good ‘ole boy Florida justice system. Had the situation been reversed do you think the police would have applied the same investigative and/or arrest standard? SPD is corrupt and racist.

        • “…hence TM sitting in a morgue for days unidentified. . . ”

          That is absolutely false.

          The Sanford Police Department went out and saw Tracy Martin the next morning, Monday, February 27th, 2012, (in response to his having reported Trayvon as missing) and showed him a photograph of the deceased Trayvon and got a positive identification.

          One of the local television stations has footage of Tracy and Brandy (or Brandi) out looking at the site where Trayvon was shot later that Monday afternoon.


          • Do you agree with the remainder of my statement as it seems you take issue with the morgue comment. While I was not in Florida and do not know and I certainly concede there has been lots of misinformation – here are a few articles lying about the morgue incident. . As you can see this is a Florida newspaper and a blog both spouting misinformation. Question, let’s say it was Monday morning – did they not have finger prints on TM? Could they not immediately identify him? After all there is all of this information about him being arrested, etc., etc. Or is that also misinformation?

            • @Debbie, I’m not disputing the intent behind your comment. But actually, there is a lot of misinformation in this case that has muddied the water and made people lean way too far to one side or the other. As TM had never been arrested, his prints would not have been in the “system”, so no, I don’t think they could have identified him that way. unitron is correct in that Tracy was informed by Detective Serino on Monday, the day after the shooting. That came about because Tracy called the police on Monday morning and they made the connection that way. Without identification on the body, I think that’s usually how they identify bodies anyway, by matching with missing people reports. I think the “three days in a morgue” misinformation came about because there may have been some document floating around dated a few days later that still had the “john doe” on there, but regardless, the family knew about it the following morning.

            • A lot of those reports are written by people who are misinformed or are not up to date, rather than having some intent. Picture an officer who had been at the scene, but had nothing further to do with the case, then writing their report a day or two later, they’d simply note “john doe”, since they haven’t had a reason to know or to look see, that the individual had been identified, nor is that info needed because, it wasn’t known at the time the report is being written about. A reporter picks up this report and writes their own, realizes there’s this length of time and note it, not knowing this report is not a controlling document.

            • The mountains of misinformation, if not out-and-out disinformation, out there came from everywhere, not just Florida media.

              As for “. . To them he was a dispensable Black kid…”, Good Ol’ Boy network, etc., knowing if any of that were true would require me to be able to read minds. I’ve seen plenty of speculation that it is true, a lot of it based on misinformation like “Zimmerman’s father was so far up in the Virginia court system that he had the governor of Florida on speed-dial”, and nonsense like that, but I have not yet seen any actual documented proof, so I can’t say if there’s any truth to it or not.

              I lean towards not. And I doubt the Zimmerman connection to the Sanford PD was all that much of a much.

              They could only have identified Trayvon from his fingerprints that night if his prints had been “in the system” somewhere that they could access.

              Although he had gotten into some trouble at school, in at least one case involving an officer assigned to the school looking into things, apparently any disciplinary action was just what the school took, and there was no actual “arrest” or criminal charges brought.

              If there had been, I’m sure we’d all have seen a mug shot of him (a real one, not some photoshop job) by now.

              It is true that the Sanford area in the past had a level of racial prejudice high enough for them to choose to forego the income from having the Brooklyn Dodger’s farm team, the Montreal Royals do their spring training there because they so objected to the presence of Jackie Robinson on the otherwise all-white team.

              But that was over 65 years ago. Just as I’m sure it hasn’t disappeared entirely, I’m sure it’s not at as great a level as it was back then, and that there’s less advantage in exploiting it for local politicians these days as there would have been back then.


            • While you are misinformed I won’t hold that against you because you are not simply making things up, but have shown that there does exist cause for your incorrect beliefs. Of course, unitron is probably going to be very ungentle and seize upon your error as if you are intent on spreading misinformation. I suggest you simply apologize for your mistaken posts and move on. There is no need and it will be seen as unfair if you are to be excoriated for your mistake(s).

              Don’t rely on media reports, ask question rather than make assertions when in doubt. Try to use the evidence dumps, transcripts and tapes more often and lastly, identify the most trustworthy posters on blogs, when looking for things to quote.
              Carry on and enjoy.

            • It wouldn’t be so bad if it were at least new mis-information instead of stuff that should have been laid to rest months ago.

              Stuff that doing one’s homework first and then posting would have weeded out.

              When in doubt, post it as a question. “I heard that…. Anybody know if there’s anything to that?”


            • I think your outrage at the delay in identifying Trayvon is right on… Your instinct might be telling you that that delay(no matter how short) allowed George to be set free, and allowed him to continue to go free.

              While George was free he got up to all sorts of mischief. I don’t doubt for one second he immediately began contacting witnesses to find out what they saw. Not identifying Tray that very night is one of the things that damaged the case…and still, it is a very strong case. But, we’ll never know whether drugs or alcohol was in George’s blood that night. We’ll never know what DNA was under his nails….

  33. “………“on the ground being battered by Trayvon,” at the time that escape was impossible and, of course, that he was in danger of death ….”

    An innocent attacked party doesn’t have to try escaping, so whether escape was possible or not is not relevant.

    An aggressor “attacked” party does not have to escape either, just has to clearly indicate he is disengaging from his initial aggression. That is meant to cause the self-defending original victim to desist in creating death-fear in the original aggressor; if it doesn’t, the original aggressor is allowed to use any/all necessary force to defend himself. (Despite this, numerous shooters have been let off when they went after and killed original aggressors who were at the time actually walking away).

    Anyway in GZ case he could have said “stop I meant you no harm” and he DID have the chance for that when he was allegedly screaming for help. If he didn’t, he remained the aggressor to the end, so the ordinary self-defence clause doesn’t apply. (Apart from this is the issue of whether his injuries would cause reasonable fear for his life).

    • Misinformation has not muddied anything for me. George Zimmerman’s own behavior has solidified it. I lean towards GZ being a murderous racist bigot because he profiled and murdered a kid; and, if not for public pressure he would have never been investigated for it. Not arrested – investigated! Why was public intervention necessary for SPD to investigate this case? Or is that also misinformation? Previously I asked had the situation been reversed, do you think the investigation would have been handled the same way. I ask that question again. Do you? I understand statues and laws and elements of a crime and am thoroughly grateful for the analysis that goes on here. However, sometimes I get annoyed because I feel like events in this case are whitewashed. For the record, I don’t believe much of what I read. I do believe what I hear in court and am so grateful for this blog streaming the hearings. Forgive my snippiness. I am disheartened today. It’s been a year; the wheels of justice are grinding and I am afraid GZ will go free. You don’t have to be a mind reader regarding SPD. I am sure you are aware of it, right? If not, research it. You can lean anyway you want re racism in America AND Sanford, Florida. But if you want to experience the state of racism in this country today, go to your nearest movie studio and get done up in black skin. See if you can do it for say 3 days. Go about a normal day as a Black person, i.e., have dinner; go grocery shopping; drive while Black. Experience life as a Black person and then make those smart comments about race and the SPD. The biggest trick the devil ever played is pretending that he does not exist. In this case that trick benefits the the oppressor. Racism is ugly. It is not old. It is alive and well in America. And it is the reason Trayvon Martin was murdered . . .

      • You thought the body was lying in the morgue for 3 days ignored and un-cared about, but mis-information hasn’t muddied anything for you?


        Well, feel free to have whatever opinions and feelings you want to, and to express them, and feel free to be mis-informed.

        But if you post something I know to be mis-information, I’m probably going to point out that it’s mis-information.

        That’s not a character judgement about you. This is a case where it’s very easy for anyone to get mis-informed.

        But since mis-information is inaccurate, it has no use as the basis for inquiry or analysis, or discussion of the case, it only hinders those efforts.


        • unitron, did I miss something here? In Debbie’s 2.26 post, I don’t see anything about “the body was lying in the morgue for 3 days ignored and un-cared about.” What I do see is Debbie suggesting all of us white folks try being black for 3 days and report back our experiences.

            • My you do have such superior airs; however, I appreciate the clarification regarding the morgue. You know nothing about me from which to judge and quite honestly, have at it. While I enjoy the analysis, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to discern the truth in this case. It is quite simple and takes very little analysis if you are not a defense attorney. It goes like this – an indulged child of a judge, with minimal knowledge of the court system and Infragard, who also happened to be a paranoid racist, mentally impaired, discontent human being with grand delusions of being a police officer despite his criminal record, lack of education, general inability to succeed in life coupled with a “record” of observing and reporting suspicious black teenagers to the police – stalked and murder an unarmed teenager for no other reason than to keep him from getting away like all the other black suspicious looking teenagers. That is far more logical than he followed him, called 911, and murdered him in self-defense between the time that the police were called and arrived. Quit playing and lose the supercilious comments about racism until such time as you truly research the issue. Misinformation not withstanding, please feel free to give direct answers to any questions I have posed. Oh but then, you did say misinformation would cause you not to discus . . . blah, blah, blah.

            • Regardless of whether Zimmerman is innocent or guilty, his father was not a judge, he was a magistrate, although during the time Zimmerman was growing up his father was in the military. He only went to work for the Virginia court system after retiring from that. They may call the position “Judge Magistrate”, but in actuality it amounts to being about the same thing as a justice of the peace. He does not have a law degree and never presided over any trials.

              And unless Zimmerman was on his way to blow up the local water treatment plant that night, I don’t understand how Infragard had anything to do with anything about this case.


            • Debbie, it’s a huge job to read back the several thousand posts on this blog (which had earlier pages, too).

              Unitron has always pulled apart statements that are mistaken or misinformed; keep us all on the straight and narrow. Some on technical issues, some on what’s being said on the various other blogs etc.

              The saddest point about this whole case is that the reality is bad enough…. more than bad enough. There’s no need for misinformation to make it worse. The story of Trayvon lying unidentified was first put about by GZ supporters trying to make out what a terrible family he came from, that they’d not even go looking for him.

              On the other side, there have been great exaggerations about corruption, the one about Robert Snr being a “judge” being one of them.

              There may be horrible corruption in the police, but this case doesn’t do a lot to prove it; if you want to see really bad, go read up the latest on the Dorner case.

              Mostly on this blog we’ve worked on pulling the real evidence to bits, to see what it adds up to, coldly, unemotionally, scientifically, to get at what the prosecution may be able to use at the trial.

          • Suffice it to say unitron misrepresents the spirit and to an extent, the facts; however, it was in several media outlets that same happened. My msinformation seems to be quite convenient for unitron.

            • @ Unitron . . . one thing is for sure we will all understand after the trial, should it get to that. Guilty or not — the information will be out. Police corruption is not better or worse, it just is. Once it is, the integrity is gone. Thanks again for streaming the hearing.

            • “My msinformation seems to be quite convenient for unitron.”

              Actually it’s damned inconvenient because when you post facts that aren’t actually facts I have to take the time and trouble to post corrections for the sake of keeping future readers from becoming misinformed.

              None of which has anything to do with your opinions or my opinions or the opinions of either of us about the opinions of the other.

              Just whether there’s a flaw in the basis for those opinions.


          • No doubt I could go yet another extra mile in trying to be diplomatic on the subject, but after all the time on HuffPo and some other places several months ago trying to replace rumor with fact, only to discover that so often people taking one “side” or the other had already decided what they wanted to believe and therefore what they wanted to be true, that it got to be like trying to bail out the Titanic with a teaspoon, only to encounted not even new inaccuracies, but the same old ones all over again…


            (who urges people to keep in mind words most often attributed to the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.” so that discussions can begin on common ground instead of draining all of us of so much energy and putting us at extra risk of unneccessary conflict and ill will just getting that common ground established)

            • Generally over here I find that a word is usually sufficient, we don’t regurgitate failed argument or data here once disproved. Being a creature used to usenet I to am aware of the reflex to expect and therefore gird against the endless rehash. So, it still feels strange to be able to post and get polite and reasonable responses, from people who either gently correct or are willing to graciously accept correction.

            • gently?…graciously ?

              Never mind that, let’s go back to talking about me! : – )


  34. In Memorium: on this evening, exactly one year ago, a young life was cut short. His name was Trayvon Benjamin Martin. RIP.

  35. @onlyiamunitron you are wrong about a Magistrates

    The Virginia court system is subdivided into supreme and circuit courts, lower courts and magistrates, who perform judicial functions such as conducting “probable cause” hearings on criminal complaints brought by police and determining whether a person who has been arrested is eligible for bail.

    In many instances, a citizen’s first contact with Virginia’s Judicial System comes through the office of the magistrate. A principal function of the magistrate is to provide an independent, unbiased review of complaints of criminal conduct brought to the office by law enforcement or the general public. Magistrate duties include issuing various types of processes such as arrest warrants, summonses, bonds, search warrants, subpoenas, and certain civil warrants. Magistrates also conduct bail hearings in instances in which an individual is arrested on a warrant charging him or her with a criminal offense. Magistrates provide services on an around-the-clock basis, conducting hearings in person or through the use of videoconferencing systems.

    The magistrate system for the Commonwealth (of Virginia) is divided into eight regions, and each magistrate is authorized to exercise his or her powers throughout the magisterial region for which he or she is appointed. Each region is comprised of between three and five judicial districts. There are magistrate offices located throughout Virginia, including at least one in each of Virginia’s 32 judicial districts.

    Robert would have extensive knowledge of the law

    • As long as we’re cutting and pasting PR releases–

      “An ABC affiliate in Florida posted a statement from Kristi Wright, with the Department of Legislative and Public Relations in Virginia, which read:

      “Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered “judges” and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia’s Judicial System Website.” ”

      He was a glorified justice of the peace in Virginia, which, along with a buck or two, would get him a cup of coffee down in Florida.


      • I thanked unitron for clearing up the misinformation. I accept your assertion that he picks apart posts and need not verify same. Apparently it works for this blog. I certainly understand it is much easier to fixate on one piece of misinformation than it is to acknowledge the truth of another. Whatever floats his boat and I leave him to it. With all due respect, while I appreciate the apology suggestion, I don’t worship at the alter of unitron and actually find him disingenuous at best (i.e., the magistrate issue), so no apology will be forthcoming. However, I have in fact moved on. You have a wonderful day.

        • @Debbie, I agree that you need not apologize for anything, especially for simply making a comment based on reports that were actually put out there as “news”. We’re kinda OCD/anal/nit-picky or what have you on this blog about evidence, and it’s a chip on our shoulders that we haven’t quite brushed off yet. It takes awhile I suppose to get the “feel” for the personalities of online bloggers, and to not take anything personally. I’m glad you’ve moved on, and I for one appreciate your input as well as others on this blog and I hope you’ll chime in as the spirit moves you to do so.

      • I don’t understand how the statement attributed to Kristi Wright squares with your add-on that Zimmerman Sr was a “glorified justice of the peace..”

        • Her statement explains the job he had, after retiring from the military, in Virginia.

          Short version of her statement? NOT A REAL JUDGE

          And he was never connected to the Florida justice system at all.

          So despite everybody wanting to believe it, George Zimmerman’s father was not a politically powerful retired judge, and he could not say “jump” and have the entire government of the state of Florida already in the air before they asked “how high”.


          • Short version of her statement? NOT A REAL JUDGE

            Did she say that exactly? I think that is what YOU are saying.

            It seems logical that Zimmerman Sr. was connected….somehow. Otherwise, we can’t explain why smart, powerful men would jeopardize their careers and reputation to help a ….nobody(if I am getting your characterization right).

            I have included in my calculations the possibility that they REALLY didn’t think there was enough evidence; but, I can see for myself that there really IS enough evidence! And there would be even more evidence had they done drug and alcohol testing and nail scrapings on George, and sent the clothing off for forensic testing promptly.

            So what on earth were these smart, powerful men doing risking going home to tell their wives and children that they had lost their jobs for failing to charge the son of a….nobody?

            • “Did she say that exactly? I think that is what YOU are saying.”

              “An ABC affiliate in Florida posted a statement from Kristi Wright, with the Department of Legislative and Public Relations in Virginia, which read:

              “Robert J. Zimmerman served as a full-time magistrate from 2000-2006. Please be advised that in Virginia magistrates are judicial officers, but they are not considered “judges” and do not possess trial jurisdiction. More detailed information on the role of the magistrate in Virginia is available on Virginia’s Judicial System Website.” ”

              They aren’t judges. They don’t conduct trials, they don’t pass sentences. They do what justices of the peace do, with the possible exception of conducting civil marriage ceremonies.

              So, if you “…can’t explain why smart, powerful men would jeopardize their careers and reputation to help a ….nobody…” unless “…Zimmerman Sr. was connected…”, then perhaps the entire premise that he was connected and that smart, powerful men jeopardized their careers is flawed.

              The immunity provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law (of which “Stand Your Ground” is a separate provision) says that if you can’t immediately disprove self-defense you can’t arrest.

              That meant that the hands of the police were tied, at least temporarily.

              (and some of the stuff that it would have been helpful if it had been done, like taking evidence from Zimmerman’s body via hand swabs and blood tests and such, may not have been legally possible without him being arrested and charged first)

              The JUoF law’s immunity provision doesn’t say that they couldn’t keep investigating. Which they did.


            • So in other words, Magistrates don’t do what Judges do; therefore, (our) mental image of Zimmerman Sr. sitting on the bench and hearing cases is false.

              The immunity provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law (of which “Stand Your Ground” is a separate provision) says that if you can’t immediately disprove self-defense you can’t arrest.

              That word “immediately”….what contributed to this was the delay – no matter how short – in identifying Trayvon. I think that Tracy’s voice saying adamantly THAT NIGHT that his son lived there(temporarily), and had just gone to the store would have dampened SPD’s enthusiasm; in addition, the boy had no weapon; in addition, the boy had no blood or injury to his hands that would account for the beating George said he took. The father’s voice THAT NIGHT would have weighed heavily toward discounting self-defense. Trayvon would have had an advocate.

              Their hands were not tied at all. They could have surmised that Trayvon having no car or house keys; having a cold drink and candy on him; having cash and coins, was a kid on his way home IN THAT VERY SAME COMPLEX after going to the convenience store! This is something kids do all over America! They could have located his parent!

              Their neglect caused Trayvon to not have an advocate, which allowed SPD to accept George’s self-defense claim.

            • Regardless of whether magistrates do what judges do, for the sake of argument, even if RZ Sr was a retired JUDGE from Virginia, do we think he would carry any weight at all in Florida anyway? I don’t think so. What “weight” that I think he might carry was to add to GZ’s “good citizen, just looking out for the neighborhood watchman, can’t do wrong, squeaky clean, son of a law man” profile that got the cops believing his every word, at least for a couple of days (although daddy claimed that they didn’t know he was a retired magistrate). And regardless, daddy’s knowledge of the law apparently didn’t do GZ any good because you woulda thunk that he’d have made GZ shut up and lawyer up, even if he thought his son wasn’t going to be arrested.

            • Well sure, if the Sanford PD had unlimited resources, or could have had the entire force drop everything else and all show up in that neighborhood, leaving the rest of the City to it’s own devices.

              Are you sure there wouldn’t have been any other crimes in Sanford that night, no car wrecks, no other calls to the police that needed checking out, etc.?

              No angry citizens from other parts of town the next day cornering the mayor and the chief and saying “Where the hell were you guys when X happened and what am I paying taxes for anyway?”?

              In the real world police have a lot more constraints, most all financial, than just the wording of the laws.

              Not to mention that the police would likely not consider a father saying “My son would never do something like that” an impartial, unbiased source of information.

              What if Trayvon had been staying in a different neighborhood and just cutting through that one, the way he might well have actually cut through the one immediately to the west of that one?

              The contents of his pockets would still be the same. They might have gone to every house in TRATL and still have no idea who the kid was.

              Their resources are limited and have to be allocated accordingly.


            • All valid points. Still, how long were they at that crime scene? Off the top of my head about 4 hours or so? Two officers. They each knock on a door….”Are you missing a child? No? Ok, goodnight.” That would take what… 5 minutes tops each man, each house…times how many houses along that corridor?

              It could have been done, especially seeing as there was strong evidence that the “kid” lived within walking distance.

              To sit back and wait for the parents to report a missing child was heartless, and it helped George.

            • Right you are, the specifics of his job designation would hardly matter much, it’s not like he would be applying for a job. His status is that he was veritably a law enforcement insider, someone who sat on a bench and heard legal matters, as opposed to someone who pounded a beat and/or carried a gun. He wore a black robe and that would be enough to command quite some esteem in LE circles. And that is what opens the doors and creates connections. Not what his specific duties actually were.

              I once knew a lawyer who was well known in the legal profession because he mostly handled capital cases. Any county he went to in any state he visited, he would have been considered well connected, since he traveled in lofty legal circles, kept with the big judges, powerful lawyers and politicians. His pedigree opened the doors and it wasn’t checked for chinks and warts because he wasn’t there to do more than socialize. As a former magistrate from a large city or county, he had credentials that would have been impressive in Orlando.

            • Chances are Zimmerman’s father sat behind a plain old desk and wore a business suit, and going into a Florida PD and saying “I was a magistrate in Virginia” would have gotten him an unspoken “Okay, yeah, that ‘s nice, old man, but so what?” while they were a little nicer about it out loud.


            • True it might seem that way to an outsider. But, in LE circles wearing a robe and making decisions is tantamount to knowing the law and carries juice in at the station house and in the prosecutors office as well, since he’s got Honorable in front of his name. They expect that he’s a man of proven and demonstrable integrity, unlike a lay citizen, and therefore entitled to a bit more respect than a “Johnny in off the streets”.
              So, that get’s his foot in the door, where he can give compliments, discuss cases and generally apply his skills at bonding.

              They’re even more likely to let him hang out in their offices than they would be to let you or I do it.

            • “They’re even more likely to let him hang out in their offices than they would be to let you or I do it.”

              And they’re even more likely to wish that old man would take his stories about the old days and how “that’s no the way we did it in Virginia” home with him and get out of their way and let them get their work done.

              Papa Zimmerman’s political influence in Seminole County was probably not measurably greater than anybody else who pays property taxes there, and the notion that a bunch of cops would endanger their own jobs and pensions and the futures of their families to get George out of a jam is pretty far-fetched.


    • So, are the Feds withholding those files from the prosecution as well?

      The article doesn’t seem to have anything to say on that.


      • How could they legally do that? If they did give the files to the prosecution, the files would then be discoverable (sans a protective order – which I can’t see Judge Nelson signing considering the feds have flexed their muscle over her authority) and the defense would have access to them.

        • That’s what I would think, they couldn’t share with just one side, but it wasn’t spelled out in the article, and I also wondered if there might be some sneaky workaround where they shared not with the prosecution specifically, but with the state, or with FDLE, or with Sanford PD, all of which seem to have been more leak-prone than O’Mara’s office so far.


            • So basically O’Mara can’t get the stuff ’cause he hasn’t jumped through the right federal hoops yet.

              I wonder just what those hoops are, and how hard they are to jump through.


            • I’m wondering if this is just a case of the Feds putting their foot down. I suspect that they actually stopped investigating a long time ago and the “file” is sitting in the back drawer of someone’s desk waiting for the trial to start to see if there’s a reason for them to step back in. If they are investigating something, it would be the law enforcement and state’s attorney’s office, which frankly, they don’t consider would have anything to do with Zimmerman’s murder trial at this point. Also, it’s not as if they didn’t give him anything. O’Mara went and filed a motion for EVERYTHING, and they’re saying “nope you don’t get to hassle us like you do the prosecution, nitpicking over every scrap of paper someone doodled on. We don’t have time to help you do your job either.” (those are my made up words obviously)

            • @WSI

              IMO, I think the Feds are waiting on the outcome of the trial. Feds use all the time in the world to build their cases. Sometimes it takes years, but I have found that when they do that, they make sure their case is airtight and then go after the person they are building a case against.

            • “(those are my made up words obviously)”

              Darn, and I was hoping you had their office bugged.


            • Haha! Yeah, you know I had to put that disclaimer in case someone takes issue with my use or misuse of quotes.

            • Just the same, someone from Homeland Security will be by to have a little chat with you shortly.

              I hear Cuba’s actually kind of nice this time of year, especially on that end of the island.


            • OMG, don’t do that to me. I’m already paranoid as it is!

              Me (who is too paranoid to use a real name on wordpress)

      • Must be nice to be able to say “No, we’re not really interested in being sued by anyone just now, but thanks for asking and don’t forget to get your parking validated on the way out.

        What, when would we like to be sued? We’ll have to get back to you on that. Have a really nice day now.”


        • NBC merely submitted a response to the motion, stating that it doesn’t believe the plaintiff has a reasonable case. It also requested Judge Nelson to temporarily hold the civil case until the criminal trial is finished.

          • I prefer my snarky version better.

            Besides, it’s not for nothing that they’re the spiritual descendents of Sarnoff and RCA.


    • I think most people who were/are over at the 3rd Diaspora are also following here. I just kinda see Diaspora as the “other room” in this house. When it gets a bit stuffy over there, I retreat here and talk to myself and the lurkers. At least I think there are still some lurkers here who never did bother to follow the diaspora.

      • It’s just that this thread was dormant for several days, if not longer, it seemed, and then for some reason started picking up again.


    • Oh, now it’s a real suspicious burglar walking in the rain with his hand in his waistband eh? GZ needs to give it up, he’s not getting anywhere and he’s only fooling himself if he thinks so.

    • It seems the majority were supportive of Zimmerman, and that the minority were vociferously and very rudely against him – hardly a surprise. What’s not mentioned is whether there was any credible threat of harm or death that either the local authorities or the FBI had to investigate. For all the security-consciousness of Zimmerman et al, such threats have never been verified.

      • You’re right, the article did not mention any direct threats. However, I would have to guess that they (GZ and family) interpret such comments like suggestions for GZ to off himself or wishes of his demise in prison as “death threats”. I would imagine that I’d be uneasy being on the receiving end of those comments, and I have no doubt that they have some level of fear (whether substantiated or not).

        However, as for the precautions that GZ must take in terms of the disguise and “body armor” (sounds sooooo much more inconvenient than a “kevlar vest”, eh?), my guess is that he’s quite comfortable with his imagined status as a “celebrity” and is playing the role.

  36. onlyiamunitron on February 26, 2013 at 11:56 am said:

    […..] “It is true that the Sanford area in the past had a level of racial prejudice high enough for them to choose to forego the income from having the Brooklyn Dodger’s farm team, the Montreal Royals do their spring training there because they so objected to the presence of Jackie Robinson on the otherwise all-white team.

    But that was over 65 years ago. Just as I’m sure it hasn’t disappeared entirely, I’m sure it’s not at as great a level as it was back then […]”

    Gotta disagree here, at least a little. I agree that the level of racism is not as severe and obvious as it had been in the past, but as with towns and cities across the country, it does exist – and at a level, especially vis-á-vis the SPD, that has entrenched anger at and distrust of the SPD in the black community. Hence, why the SPD has publicly sought to implement changes and ‘friendlier’ policing amidst those communities.

    With respect to the attention and protests, it appears that social media among both black and white people began fairly early on, before the national media became aware of the incident.

    An NBC article
    introduces the man who began the petition for Zimmerman’s arrest.

    A Poynter story linked in the NBC article describes the use of social media in spreading the word of the shooting.

    • On the same topic, awhile ago I came across the case of former SPD Officer Ned Golden, and I think it’s illustrative of the SPD’s racial attitudes. It doesn’t involve injury or death, and, of course, the story is just as illustrative of how police departments protect their own, but I thought it interesting to share.
      FDLE Summary of Incident (scribd) that was signed off in July 2011 (the event took place in December 2010).
      WFTV article describing how the SPD initially handled the matter.

      • (Didn’t want to break the thread with a third link)

        Orlando Sentinel article about the SPD finally firing him, but with the prosecutor (Wolfinger, BTW) refusing to charge him with the assault the FDLE recommended.

          • Thanks Loree! I wonder if anyone knows when it got really that dark that evening (maybe will try searching for sunset times in florida on that date?). Seeing the video of the mail kiosk reminds me of LLMpapa’s video questioning how it was that GZ could describe accurately that TM’s sweatshirt was dark grey instead of just plain black.

            • @WSI
              Great minds think alike. I was just about to view the M & I bank video, to see when it did actually started to get dark. I remember a overcast. But it will be interesting to view at what time it starting getting dark. I can’t recall right now how long the tapes are from the bank. The best data we have available right now is the M& I bank.

            • Thanks amsterdam! Hmmmm, if we ignore the possibility that GZ saw TM earlier in the day, then it would seem that the only place that GZ would have had maybe enough light to see TM’s clothing was at the mail kiosk. It seemed the only place GZ claimed to have seen TM “standing” was by Taaffe’s place, while the rest of the time, he was “walking around, looking about”. On second thought, he could have come up on TM with his headlights. In any case, it all just says that GZ got really close, close enough to creep TM out by staring and not saying a word to him.

            • @Lonnie

              Thank you. I’m working on something and needed that information.

              Thanks again to Amsterdam as well.

            • Thank you so much Lonnie? I’m a lazy butt today, so can’t go look this up myself. What’s the difference between astronomical, nautical and civil twilights?

            • @WSI

              I have most of what I need for the post with the exception of the data about sneakers. I am awaiting a response, patiently. It may be a while but that information will be a significant point in the post.
              It may be a couple of days sweetie. 🙂

            • Your mom and anyone who took French in a US public school system. Good thing Tchoupi isn’t around to read that. Although I wish he’d come back. Where are you Tchoupi???

            • Ha! Thanks Loree. Yeah, that interview was a disaster even with Hannity “lobbing softballs”. What was the weird TV editing that he was talking about at the very end though?

            • No, I think he was talking about something weird about the editing of the Hannity interview. I don’t think I can bring myself to watch it again right now though.

            • I didn’t think that was right, but I tried. 🙂 I am going to listen unitl I get it, I’m not doing anything right now and he is funny.

            • I have a couple of questions for Dave. Was the light at the mail area more like the video or the photo?
              One of the photos taken of the mail area was taken from the parking space in front of the clubhouse. It looks like Dave was on foot. I am curious what the view would be like in à car,
              What has allways bothered me is that GZ could describe the hoody as grey, but was unable to give a description of Trayvon’s pants. But he was able to describe the shoes.

  37. I just read in this article that the defense “cites” GZ’s massive weight gain as a reason to postpone the trial. However, I can’t find a more established newspaper that reports this. It drives me nuts to read articles that make the defense sound even more ridiculous when they’re not trying to be. In any case, if GZ’s mental health is being hurt by the pending trial, then all the more reason to get it over with, eh?

    • I thought that may have been the reason. There are 4 eyewitnesses, that make statements about GZ as the “bigger” “broader” man. I’ve been trying to imagine the picture Serino showed GZ. It must have been an autopsy photo. Serino describes Trayvon as a skinny kid.
      I think the 46 lbs GZ had over Trayvon is significant enough. GZ sitting in that courtroom a 100 lbs heavier, the jury seeing this photo of this skinny kid, with a bullet hole in his chest, can’t be good for GZ.

      • I dunno. GZ just looks pudgy and lumbering now, especially when he’s clean shaven and in that suit. I think the video of the re-enactment the day after the shooting shows clearly that at the time, GZ was nimble enough, had a muscular upper body and should not have been a helpless ragdoll.

        • Mass is mass, especially if it has to transport through space for about 40 ft. Trayvon was skinny. We haven’t seen the autopsy pictures, but when you are close to 6 feet and weigh 158 lbs, he couldn’t have been very muscular.
          I get what you are saying but there has to be a lean muscle machine to move that kind of mass.

          • And I get what you’re saying. You’re right, TM was skinny and the jurors will get to see the autopsy photos, so they won’t have to guess anything about his physique.

      • What people don’t realize at first blush is, most males weigh pretty much the same organs and skeleton wise. The difference that matters most is the muscle mass and fat index. At Trayvon’s weight for his height, he’s not only rail thin, but he lacks muscle mass, meaning that he’s going to be unable to apply much force in anything he does. While GZ has great muscle mass, added toughness of adulthood and you have a very powerfully built male who can apply great force. Force enough, for example to lift Trayvon off the ground with one arm. If GZ gave Trayvon a hard shove, it would propel him several feet. Where as if Trayvon was to push against GZ as hard as he could, he probably couldn’t budge him one inch.
        A punch from Trayvon would probably feel more like a slap than a punch, without training of any kind, Trayvon could not throw an effective punch. While on the other hand, a hard blow from GZ and Trayvon would be in terrible pain. Which is why his story of being mounted is so ludicrous as to seem insane. A mere sweep of one of GZ’s massive arms would easily put Trayvon on the ground.

        Professor suggested an expert whose specialty it is to define what people of certain body types can and cannot do. Maybe the SP will have one, but it would hardly be necessary. No reason to go for over kill.

        • This is really interesting, Lonnie.

          When Tray’s clothes are pulled taut over his body in the 7-Eleven vid, you can see how skinny he is….especially his thighs. You don’t get the nickname “Slimm” unless you’re really skinny, or really fat! Trayvon came by that nickname honestly!
          His Chest looks hollowed-out in that vid. I imagine if you saw him unclothed he would appear “wiry” with small muscles of little definition. He was tall and long-legged, so I imagine – as you said – that he would be easily destabilized….like if someone jumped on his back or tackled him in some way.

          George on the other hand has a barrel chest, where his chest seems broad, out of proportion to his shoulder width. He also seems to have a low center of gravity…that is, his waist is long, his hips are low and his legs are short. BROAD is certainly a word that would come to mind! George would not be easily destabilized! In addition, there’s that giant, pus-filled head of his, that is like the head of a bull. My impression is of a man who KNOWS his own strength and knows how to throw his weight around.

          The rest of the stuff you said also rings true!

          • “In addition, there’s that giant, pus-filled head of his…”

            Well, if you’re going to insist on keeping things classy, perhaps you’d be more comfortable amongst like-minded folk over at



            • “C’mon, how else can you explain his actions?”

              With less intentionally dehumanizing vulgarity, perhaps?


            • Well, it’s not as if I said that he was a washed-up justice of the peace, which along with a dollar more would buy me a cup of coffee….

              George’s Ex said he took Accutane for cystic acne. Now, his entire head has transformed into a pustule.

            • Good comeback, xy, now just don’t call GZ a fat pustule…. 🙂 You know I’m kidding right? OK, I’m done whitewashing for the day. That comment did have me laughing, and I don’t even know why. Just a ridiculous image I suppose. You were right in your other comment that GZ probably deserves to be called an mf’er and then some, but I meant there was no evidence of him to be “literally” one.

              I’m not so concerned about the effect of the name calling and what have you on GZ himself. He’d be crazy to read these blogs about him anyway. It’s more of a concern as to how it reflects on the community of bloggers who are “pro-Trayvon”. But then again, who am I to tell people not to hang their laundry in the yard because I think it sullies the neighborhood? Everybody is entitled to an opinion and to express themselves however they choose, and to be colorful at doing so. First amendment, right? And I can see you don’t have a mean streak in you, so carry on.

            • I’m not so much against the name calling as long as some useful content comes along with it. It’s distressing to open message after message to find only name calling and slights there.

            • @Lonnie, you said “I’m not so much against the name calling as long as some useful content comes along with it.” Like this?

              The lawyers for the giant pimplehead defendant…… no scratch that…..Lawyers for the rapidly body morphing defendant have posted an explanation as to why they made the motion for specific discovery from the state regarding ALL the FBI files rather than ask for them directly from the FBI. The FBI said the defense has not complied with THEIR rules for requesting information. The defense said they full well know how to request information from the FBI but thought it would unlikely turn up any more than what has already been provided, so they thought the state could pressure the FBI to give them more. Even if the prosecution could do so, why would they want to do legwork for the defense?


            • Because claims of racism, of profiling, and of civil rights violations are central to the national attention this case has received, and indeed were central to the calls for Mr. Zimmerman’s arrest, the findings of the FBI’s investigation are very relevant. We would hope that everyone who wants to base their opinion on factual information would want this discovery available as well.

              Unbelievable. The bolded line above…. that claims of racism was central to the calls for George’s arrest…

              Facts: The MURDER of an unarmed teenager was central to the call for George’s arrest! There is no legal penalty for having racist thoughts. The Nation cannot demand arrest of someone just because they’re racist!

              Mark O’Mara is saying everything except M-U-R-D-E-R!

              Maybe defense hoped NBC would write a cheque to make the suit go away…that would be the happiest outcome for them. One problem down, 1000 more to go!

              If the FBI has turned up info – related to civil rights – that implicates George, then I imagine that would blow any suit against NBC out of the water. What does O’Mara accomplish by fishing for it now? Just asking for it, but not asking for it in a way that it can be provided under the regulations, sets up an insinuation that the information must not exist.

              Is this part extortion? Are they pressuring NBC to write that cheque?

              O’Mara also accomplishes something else:

              The State prosecutors have much easier access to the FBI’s file on this case, but they have refused to request any more information from the FBI than the reports that have already been disclosed in discovery — reports that show no evidence of racism on the part of George Zimmerman.

              He makes the State culpable in whatever he’s insinuating. He says they’ve “refused” to request more information… suggesting that O’Mara has asked them and they’ve “refused”, as if they’re hiding something or denying defense what it needs to defend it’s client.

              It’s a multi-pronged-shit-storm approach…

              It’s kind of funny to think of the racist folks the Zimmerman clan has been hanging out with SINCE George was charged… George has been subtly courting racists SINCE he killed Trayvon; who is to say what he was up to BEFORE.

            • Hahaha… Very funny… But I wasn’t talking about gratuitous name calling. Just something that appeared more reflexive as brought on by frustration, ire or disgust.

          • Guys do a lot of wrestling in their youth, playful as it may be, it is a way of them building coordination and measuring their own strength against that of their peers.

            Trayvon could play football at his weight but it would only be a game, not a serious effort to win as a regular team player would do. He simply doesn’t have the weight or muscle mass to stabilize himself against tackles and could easily be hurt badly, in a pile up.

            Up against GZ, he would not stand a chance at all, and any guy who thinks that he might, is only playing mind games. Even a half hearted punch from GZ and Trayvon would crumple in pain. While, as I said, Trayvon’s best punch would be nothing more than an open handed slap to GZ, nothing even close to breaking a bone or fracturing cartilage. He’s seventeen and hasn’t even developed sufficient coordination to be allowed to box, he wouldn’t even be allowed in a ring until he was 18 at the least. Not to mention several pounds heavier.

            What made GZ cook up a story of a vicious… no… make that lethal attack at the hands of a untrained and unarmed child with barely enough strength to carry his own clothing, is either a sign of desperation or confidence on GZ’s part. Confidence that he won’t be challenged. Desperation at not having a credible story because his victim was such a weakling.

            GZ is beginning to get a clue that people have figured it out and are realizing that his story is simply not possible.

            We “Trayvonites” on the other hand are not pressing the real issues home yet. The fact that we know that Trayvon was not only non-combative, but that he was simply a child to weak and physically unstable to perform any kind of effective attack against GZ’s superior might. Once that idea becomes the central focus of the debate, the Z-bots will appear too silly for words.

  38. @WSI & WillisNewton

    IIIRC, WillisNewton made a comment about sneakers on Disapora.
    Tracey Martin, in his call to 911, reporting his son missing, described his clothing and his footwear to be Jordan sneakers with red trim. Air Jordan did make sneakers with reflective tongues in 2010, IIRC.

    If you look at this video with the replica version of those sneakers, you can see how reflective those “tongues” are on the sneakers.

    Dave’s video was dark, but it shows that his sneakers would of been visable, if any small amount of light was available for the sneakers to reflect. I am inclined to believe that is how Gz was able to find him so easily. He had two flashlights. On big, one small. He may have left his lights on from the truck.

    I don’t have the year of the sneakers he was wearing that night. Police personal don’t get that specfic when it comes to tennis shoes. OTOH, if I was able to talk to his cousin, I believe he would know. Teenagers always know what kind of footwear they have on their feet. Maybe I will do a reach out to someone……

    • @Amsterdam

      May I ask a favor, please?
      Could you find the Civil Twilight, Nautical Twilight, Astronomical Twilight, and Moon for the same date.

      • I know, I know. This is something I know how to find. I don’t know anything about a nautical twilight, but I can tell you what time the sun set anywhere, anytime as long as that has been registered. I haven’t checked the moon phase yet, but I will. The moon phase does have a big impact on visibility during the night.
        Now you can laugh.

          • It could make a big difference. Of course weather also has an impact.
            When Dave made his video, it was partly overcast and full moon. When Trayvon was murdered, it was overcast and new face moon.
            It was definitely darker the night Trayvon was murdered than the night Dave made his video.

            You can check for your self. The moon is waxing right now. Next full moon is on 3-11. Next new moon is on 3-26.

            • It’s hard to imagine it being darker than what I’ve seen in pictures; It was pitch black.

              That means John(W6) could not have made out clothing colour unless he was shining light on the figures. His globe-type patio light would not have illuminated the figures.

            • So much so for his MMA style blows. But a witness who says that they saw something that it was impossible to see, because that never happened, is a poor witness for who was on top, or anything else for that matter. If he does take the stand, I think the SP will treat him as a hostile witness. He’s clearly out to help George any way that he can.
              Even having given up his MMA blows and such, he’s still capable of finding a zinger or two he can support GZ with if given the chance.

            • I have serious doubts about what W6 could have seen. W6 only watched for a very short period. I have more faith in w18 and Selma. Both these witnesses watched for a longer period. Their eyes had time to adjust to the darkness and their brains had time to adjust to the visual signals their eyes were sending.

              W6 describes a change in position of the two people that I think is not possible. W6 was also watching and listening to GZ after the event took place. I think W6 heard GZ tell his story long before he made his first statement.

            • @Amsterdam

              I think it was Jeremy who spoke to him first and relayed information to John and his wife. While Jeremy’s wife is on the phone wife 911, Jeremy is on the phone with the next door neighbors.

              I wrote a post about it somewhere at the Lounge. I figured out who called whom using their audio interviews and their known home locations.

            • @Loree
              Jeremy was more likely talking to W17. John was on the phone with 911. He was looking out of his upstairs bedroom window. In one of his interviews he says he heard GZ claim self-defense.

      • I checked the moon.
        When Trayvon was killed the moon was waxing from a new moon phase. When Dave made his video, it was full moon and party cloudy.
        It should’ve been darker the night Trayvon was murdered than in Dave’s video.
        You can compare tonight with 14 days from know. That is about the difference between Dave’s video and the night Trayvon was murdered.

  39. Frederick Leatherman wrote today in his article entitled “FOX News pimps for defendant in Trayvon Martin murder case” …..”Next time you see the Michelin Man wearing sunglasses while standing in line at the Donut Shop, be sure to tap him on the shoulder and ask him for his autograph. Maybe he will give it to you for free, although I would not bet the ranch.On second thought, we don’t need you to do that because this Afro Peruvian descendant of African kings might pull out a gun and blow away your heart.”

    I’ve said many times that I don’t post anywhere except here and by extension the BCCList Diaspora on whonoze’s blog so I can’t tell the professor directly my feelings on this, but I had to spew some steam on this one. I am APPALLED at this, especially since it’s written as an article (and not just a random comment) in a somewhat popular blog. There are so many things wrong with this, I can’t even begin…. I’ll leave you guys to decide whether it rubs you the wrong way.

    • I’ve been trying to decide just how stubborn I want to be about not letting myself get run off from there by relative newbies.

      Leatherman started posting stuff about the case late in March of last year. (2012)

      By the time I’d found the site and started reading and posting it was mid-June (or at least that’s the earliest post of mine I could find there).

      I’ve recently been going back through the sites archives and reading forward chronologically.

      He fairly quickly decided that he didn’t put any faith in Zimmerman’s version of events (and when the crowd that had been photoshopping Obama pictures to turn him into a witch doctor and such got behind Zimmerman I think that diminished George in the Professor’s eyes even more–sort of retroactive guilt by association), but the site was still somewhere where you could keep up with the case and discuss it and get Leatherman to weigh in on some of the legal questions.

      Beginning around September ’12 some new people showed up and some people who’d already been there and contributed intelligently seemed to began to change and the site began to evolve into a contest to try to outdo each other to

      A. See who hates Zimmerman and anyone associated with him the most and can come up with the funniest, nastiest, most dehumanizing insults towards him,


      B. See who loves Trayon the most.

      And, quite possibly thanks in part to attacks on him on other sites, including imposters, the Professor seems to have gotten swept up in it as well, although I’m not sure I can tell if he’s leading, following, or like the French politician during the Revolution who sees a mob heading down the street and says “There go my people. I must find out where they are going so that I can lead them.”

      And there were some added complications last summer when I and others had stuff we didn’t write appear to appear under our usernames, plus various trolls saying outlandish things, the same users posting under different names for various reasons, etc.

      If you go back and read any of the old stuff, be aware that there are places that don’t make sense because so much is missing from troll comments being deleted, often taking other comments with them–for instance there’s no trace of my comments pointing out that someone else was posing as me, or my saying that I’d be not commenting there anymore under those circumstances, or any of the comments by others regretting my departure.


      • He gets attacks of being overly emotional and gets caught up. When he sticks to legal issues he’s solid and posts in a totally different tone of voice.

        I’m a bit surprised by this current threat, following on from previous two days’ serious discussion of attitudes. Might take a few days longer to sink in, especially with the new crowd.

      • Out of curiosity unitron, how well did you play with others in the school yard way back when? (by “way back” don’t mean to imply you’re an old fart, I just assume all of us here are of a certain age and been out of school for awhile). Did you drive your teachers nuts by correcting them? Me personally, I have a vivid memory of going to kindergarten and just couldn’t understand why the other girls wanted me to “play house”. Thought it was the stupidest thing. I played along though, because I was too nice to tell them they were all idiots for “pretend playing”, a non-productive pursuit, when there was a perfectly good box of legos in the corner dying to be made into the world empire state building (now THAT’s productive). Sometimes we have to resign ourselves to “pretend playing” just so the group doesn’t have a hissy fit, eh?

    • There are so many things wrong with this, I can’t even begin….

      What do you mean you can’t begin? It seems you’ve already begun.


      • @xy11xy, hey, welcome to BCClist, been lurking awhile or just found us? Yes, I began by saying I was appalled by the article. I reported it just like I would if I encountered an appalling on CNN or elsewhere, but I was torn because somehow it felt a bit wrong, like I was talking behind the professor’s back or something. But since you asked, here goes….

        Like aussie said, the professor is very good at what he does when he sticks to legal stuff and is a good educator of such things, but as unitron has mentioned in the past, he sometimes gets tainted by the mentality of the crowd that gets a bit too high from disparaging remarks about the defendant. All that despite the fact that he had taken to Loree’s gentle reminder awhile back about taking the high road and even wrote instructions on how to conduct oneself. For instance, he chided people for calling GZ and company names other than those which are based on at least what we perceive to be true (like it’s ok to call him a liar because we think we’ve caught him in multiple lies, but it’s not ok to call him an mf’er because there’s no evidence of that). Yet here he is calling GZ the Michelin man. Yes, I described GZ in an earlier comment as “pudgy” and “lumbering”, but those are descriptions related to a discussion about the jury’s perception of GZ’s weight and how it might affect the case. There’s no point otherwise to simply make fun of his weight,

        And the title of that article “FOX News pimps for defendant in Trayvon Martin murder case”. Well I’m no fan of FOX News either, but saying that they’re “pimping” for anyone is a bit crass.

        “be sure to tap him on the shoulder and ask him for his autograph. Maybe he will give it to you for free, although I would not bet the ranch.” This part of the article, I think is fine and funny since GZ had offered his signature as a “thank you” to supporters but also as part of a fundraising effort.

        “On second thought, we don’t need you to do that…..” this would have been the start of a great joke as it’s a play on Sean the dispatcher’s words, but then he follows with this:

        “…because this Afro Peruvian descendant of African kings…” I personally wouldn’t make fun of anyone’s heritage, even if it’s distant and whether or not we believe they actually embrace it or not, or even if they tried to use it as a reason for being a “non-racist”.

        and finally “…..might pull out a gun and blow away your heart.” This I find disturbing most of all, especially coming from a former defense lawyer. Yes, I’ve been known to say that GZ may be paranoid and cannot be trusted with a gun out in public again since he believes he’s a walking target now. But articles, especially ones written on a blog known to be read by the defense team adds fuel to their fire when they say “look, we’re still being assasinated by online media”.

        Before anyone jumps on my case, No, I did not all of a sudden fall of on the wrong side of the fence and decided to defend GZ for some reason. Whether or not we believe GZ was a depraved murderer or a guy who did stupid things that caused the death of a teenager, I’d like to think we can still remain decent people without sparking more hate. It’s hard enough having people dubbed “trayvonites” in other forums trash talking and duking it out with GZ supporters (why they care to do that is beyond me), but for those of us just wanting to find the truth and want to see how justice should be properly carried out, there’s just no need to get mean.

        Alright, I’m climbing down off my soap box now to go work on my witty, yet politically correct parody of the defendant…..

        • Thank you, wassointeresting.

          I was here a couple times in the past…but I sometimes get information overload and have to close the browser and take a long nap.

          I must confess, disparaging remarks about George don’t bother me. As soft-hearted as most of those folks seem, I can’t see them hurting George if they had the chance; not because they don’t think he deserves it, but because they’re not the killing kind. Besides they say softball stuff like he’s fat etc…

          On the other hand, the stuff I hear Conservatives say about the grieving family and their lawyers… I believe what they say and I think they ARE the killing kind! Those folks actually try to get me, a black woman, to accept the argument that black boys – any one of which could be my own son – deserve to die just for walking down the street! Can you believe that?! They are IRRATIONAL, as well as the killing kind!

          I am NEVER going to accept such an argument…NEVER!

          For instance, he chided people for calling GZ and company names other than those which are based on at least what we perceive to be true (like it’s ok to call him a liar because we think we’ve caught him in multiple lies, but it’s not ok to call him an mf’er because there’s no evidence of that).

          That is freakin’ hilarious! I happen to think there’s ample evidence that GZ is a m’fer!….and in fact, would be willing to argue that point in court – even though I am not a lawyer! Seriously though, we don’t need to try extra hard to be good when we’re already naturally good. …You already are!

          Is the defense going to try to convince us now that George ISN’T fat? HA!

          I have not communicated directly with the Professor, but he seems like an affable fellow… 🙂

          The defense is trying to get us to exchange our way of thinking for their way of thinking, but their way of thinking is foul. I will NEVER accept their way of thinking…NEVER!

          I think I get what the Prof is saying about the African King thing.. George, an African King….gimme’ a freakin’ break! George is whatever race will get him out of trouble that day…. He’s white, he’s Hispanic, he’s black…then he’s fat, he’s skinny… he’s a young man, he’s scared….Whatever will get him out of trouble!

          I think George would liquify my heart. Many a time have I walked down the street carrying stuff in my hands in neighborhoods not my own…many a time, wassotintersting! And I was black when I did it! I just didn’t do it in Florida! And not at The Retreat!

          Anyway, I hear ya…and I’ll try not to be mean….;)

          • Thank you. I am glad you are here. There is wonderful information on this blog. There also seems to be whitewashing (for lack of a better word) to what end, I don’t know. It is supposedly in the name of science and analysis. As with anything, I take the good and “not-so,” suck it up and keep moving forward. My wish is that all be revealed during the trial. As for the Martins, I am quite pleased with their willingness to accept the jury’s verdict in this matter. Their willingness to do so will go a long way toward squelching any civil unrest that might come as a result of a not guilty verdict. Have a great weekend.

            • It’s funny to hear them say that… I mean, what other choice do they have? If it is a not-guilty verdict, unless the State appeals, that is the family’s last stop. They have no other choice but to accept a verdict.

              If their redundant statement is to calm public anger, then it seems doubly unfair that they must grieve while also soothing the anxieties of whites.

              Those people – Sybrina and Tracy – must have super-human emotional strength!

            • I believe they made that statement to prevent post-verdict “Reginald Denny” type situations from occurring in this country for which I am grateful as it will only give fodder to GZ supporters. They must lead by example to get their children through this horrific time. Living positive, dignified and purposeful lives will honor Trayvon and show their other children that depending upon how they handle life’s most horrific events good can emerge. They will have hard times and bad days, anyone would. They will need support. Don’t know what super human emotions will do for them. Based on their actions thus far, I think they are headed in the right direction. Personally, I would like to see them start a conversation/movement to address SYG-type laws in this country; but of course, they haven’t asked me.

            • @debbie
              I think I understand your frustration. This case is very emotional for me. When I read the ugly comments about Trayvon, Dee Dee or Trayvon’s family, I find it hard to breath. I just want to cry or scream.
              So I stay away from sites where that kind of conversation is encouraged.

              I also feel uncomfortable about some of the comments about GZ and his family. Giving them nicknames, or saying derogatory things about their appearance or social class, is a way to dehumanize them. Dehumanizing is the first step in creating an excuse to treat someone as other or less human. That is exactly what GZ and his supporters did and still do to Trayvon. When it gets out of hand on the Leatherman blog, I flee and come here.

              When I get upset I start digging into the evidence, that is my way of dealing with the emotions I feel about this case. Everytime I get back into the evidence, I am convinced GZ will be convicted for the murder of Trayvon. That will calm me down.

            • Amsterdam1234, it’s wonderful that you are able to assuage your emotions. Thank you for recognizing and acknowledging my frustration with what I perceive to be “glossing over” of certain issues. Unfortunately my brain was not moving as fast as my fingers hence the term “whitewashing” which, of course, stuck. The fact is (no wires planted in GZ’s home) I do not need evidence to tell me certain things about GZ. His actions coupled with my life experiences acquired from San Francisco, CA to Montpellier, VT and/or DeRidder, LA to Dallas, TX are sufficient. Admittedly lacking direct knowledge and challenging same by emphatically stating “I’m sure it is not as bad as it used to be . . .” (paraphrasing) made me a little crazy; however his ability to do it with such superiority simply made me want to go ballistic. For the record, all except copies of court-filed documents is speculation, theory, misinformation and information until such time as it is procedurally admitted into evidence by the judge in this case. As I stated a few days ago, I am over it. While some of the suggestions and directives given by “long timers” to “newbies” seem to be a bit condescending, all-in-all, I am truly grateful for and enjoy the information collected, analyzed and provided. I truly hope you are right about GZ being convicted. Have a wonderful weekend.

            • @debbieelw
              No need to explain. I was about to jump in, but I know that only opens the opportunity to completely take over the thread.
              I am happy to see some new people here, and I am interested in reading your ideas about this case.

  40. @ amsterdam1234 – I would like greatly appreciate your input on a missing person’s case out of Florida. I made some progress a while ago but it has long sense gone cold. Interested?

    • Hi Debbie
      Haven’t seen you around. I hope you are oke. I am interested in your case so if you want to share it, let me know.

      • Awesome. I have been trying to stay in my lane today. I tend to get overwhelmed by things I cannot change and do more harm than good. Re my cousin, i welcome your help. Florida police, troopers, courts and maybe even U.S. Marshalls (i.e., protection) are involved. He has not contacted his family in years. I will get with his brother, see where we are and get back to you. Thank you so much for this.

  41. @ loree

    Here is the best photo I’ve seen that show the reflective nature of TM’s shoes. They appear to be reflective on the toes, not the tongue as the shoes you found seem to be.

    But yes, the smallest amount of light directed AT them from the viewer’s POV would make them light up TO THE PERSON HOLDING THE LIGHT SOURCE. Remember, reflectors and just that – tiny mirrors that direct light BACK from where it came.

    I tend to think that even the keychain flashlight would have made TM’s shoes visible at 40 feet were it trained in his direction.

    closer crop of Tree Body Bag from cut thru pic

    • @Willis

      Thank you Willis for that picture, It is the best picture for what I am trying to accomplish. I am waiting patiently for the exact information on his sneakers, I believe it will be forthcoming.

      I was using that particular video to show that even a small amount of light, sneakers with reflective material will be seen.

      Agree 1000% with your last sentence.

      Again, thank you for helping me.

    • Lol!
      I hope he makes a big stink. That will only attract some attention to these videos.
      Time to start tweeting. What do you say? Capeheart, Charles Blow any other suggestions?

      • @Amsterdam,

        I would love to get ball rolling now because he did answer to LLMPapa’s videos, and there are more parts a comin’. I don’t know how to tweet though…..

        Al Sharpton right off the top of my head. Oh wait what about Tony Piptone!!!

    • Let’s just hope the prosecution is watching and benefitting from these lessons in what the best way to demonstrate forensic info to a jury is.

      There are pros and cons to both Knox and LLMPapa’s presentations as far as “how to be convincing to a jury” goes.

      • Chances improve if we can get it viral. Knox paying attention to LLMPapa does help.

      • @Willis

        I think both are taking two different approaches. But considering Knox started off with cardboard, Papa went with something more authentic, and he had the nerve to write that he did not take into consideration of Trayvon’s body build.

        He used cardboard and two white t-shirts, not an upper body mannequin with the correct clothing. In his “professional” opinion that represents the body type and clothing of Trayvon.

        I believe that the SAO, has been looking at some of the videos available. I know for damn sure they watch CTH commentary.

      • The major problem with Knox’s view, and where he would get torn apart in court is, he’s only trying to deal with one aspect of the shooting, while continuing to assert that GZ was on his back. Unfortunately there are other components to the shot that make it impossible for GZ to be on his back at the time he fires the shot. Knox tries to overcome this problem, by simply ignoring it. While LLMPapa is not asserting anything other than that the evidence is displaying anomalies that disprove GZ’s self defense claims.

        Knox has yet to explain the L shaped hole, which says that the shot went through a wrinkle, and the positions of the holes suggests the garment was being pulled on at the time the shot was fired. The matter of having enough room to take an intermediate shot, with Trayvon on top and leaning horizontally over GZ’s gun, will be another hurdle Knox will be unable to jump. But, if he should somehow manage that hurdle, he’s still got one more, the shot is straight in with no angle at all.

        Worse yet for the scenario Knox is locked into supporting is, there are even more hurdles ahead. Is why I get the distinct feeling he is sure to stumble and fall in the end.

    • Hee hee, he’s steaming. The autopsy report says that the entrance wound is 17.5 inches below the top of TM’s head. So, to argue against LLMPapa, the “expert” is switching to using the holes in the moveable garments to measure the distance from the shoulder to the top of the head. Boy is this guy gonna get roasted by LLMPapa!
      This is gonna be good. Hope I can find a kinesiologist to join the fray. Hahaha!!!

        • I’m keeping it high on my evidence pile HERE along with a lot of other stuff and some interesting comments when I come across them. As you would see there, I link to several other blogs who are also piling on.

          Only thing I can guess is “Mr Expert” is trolling for eyeballs to push his book sales. Apparently he realized at some point, that there’s a huge number of low information people interested in this case, who are not adverse to parting with their hard earned. He’s simply dipping his hand in that stream.

            • He’s been monitoring them and they’re running highly negative, because he appears to be saying that his “forensic ruler” has different sized inches than LLMPapa’s “school boy ruler”, lol.

              The autopsy report makes it very clear where the chest wound is located, 17.5 inches below the top of the head. He’s trying to say that ‘Papa somehow got it wrong and put it 23 inches below the top of the head. He attempts to confuse readers by saying that photogrammetry allowed him to discover this error. But, if anyone (like Crane Station) bothers to read up on photogrammetry, the developers/researchers state that it must first be applied to the actual model to calibrate it correctly, which amounts to saying that it’s useless for the task Knox attempts to apply it to.

              So, he has to cut off comments or have all visitors to his site see what a terrible error he’s made, due to some very sloppy work. I sincerely doubt he’ll be getting many jobs, because the courthouses must be filled with peals of laughter over this.

            • Although I should have my computer is acting funny again, can’t undelete messages, getting double clicks for single clicks and such. Every time I get rid of this stuff it comes back, must be some page I’ve visiting or something installed, well, I’ve got software that continue to work tracking down the sources of problems so I’ll just have to wait.

    • Zimmerman’s bullet shredded Martin’s left ventricle. The spot LLMPapa marked for the entrance wound on the mannequin is immediately frontal to the left ventricle. I’m 6 ft. tall. I measured 17.5 inches down from the top of my head, and it marked a spot just below my left nipple, exactly the spot LLMPapa marked, and exactly as described in the autopsy. A bullet passing straight through the holes in the clothing would have entered the body well above the nipple and thus either gone through the top of Martin’s atria, or gone above the heart itself altogether.

      Conclusion: Knox is a tool, backpeddling with ‘fuzzy math’, and LLMPapa got it right.

      • Good to see you around these parts, sir! How has the process of moving been for you? Did I read somewhere something about Omaha? As in NE?

        Also, agree on your conclusion, lol.

        • I spent a night in a motel outside of Omaha on my drive from CT to CA, and it had free WiFi so I logged in from there.

          Alas, I couldn’t get all my cr*p on the truck, so i have to go back and do it again.

          And to answer your question, moving is hell. Maybe GZ should be sentenced to 35 years of driving a 16′ truck back and forth between Omaha and Reno, sleeping in the cab and only getting out to pee and get gas. But i think that would violate one of those pesky Amendments in the Bill of Rights.

          • Rough. Have a safe second trip, and hopefully you get all your belongings moved and settled into your new place relatively smoothly!

            Yes, file that under cruel and unusual punishment, lol.

      • It just occurred to me that this could have been a trial balloon, done to test the waters in preparation for Mr. Knox to decide whether or not to testify for the defense. He would want to know that he could fool or deceive a fair enough quantity of people, sort of like Martz at the OJ trial, who also made grievous errors, but none-the-less left with his credibility somewhat intact.

        Unfortunately Mr. Knox has gotten himself almost “lethally hammered” on his efforts to put forth an idea, using four star words and what should have been an intimidating resume. Instead, the lone detractor his article attracted to his blog, has made him look foolish, by forcing him to resort to confusion.

        • That’s reading a lot into the actions of an opportunist like Knox. If he was contacted to testify as an expert witness he’d keep quiet until he got paid.

          Since the defense doesn’t have a good record with paying bills, I doubt that this is the case w Knox.

          He wrote a quickie self published book and maybe made a few hundred or so. I’d ignore him. He and his opinions are not going to amount to anything at trial.

          I think he decided to split his opinion so his book would sell to both sides of the public debate, which, lets face it was a wise thing for an author to do. The fact that he preformed a cursory examination, quite flawed in its’ logic BTW of the timing of the NEN call says to me that he lacks the skill that a consortium of bloggers has demonstrated. That’s hardly a revelation. But at least he can smell GZ’s bullshit when he sees it. He’s acknowledging the existence of “missing minutes” which is more than GZ cared to do.

  42. @Amsterdam

    Tag line I came up with will be …..

    Knox gets knocked by LLMPapa, a justice warrior for Trayvon Martin.

    • I like it!
      I created a playlist for LLMPapa’s videos, so we can share them in order with one link, and when the new ones are out, I can add them without having to change the link.

      I’ll tweet it to Capeheart, Blow, Foxx and Piptone as a start.

        • I couldn’t find a twitter account for Piptone and Foxx, but I send tweets to Capeheart, Blow, Crump, Joy Reid, Rev Sharpton, Melissa Harris Perry, Lawrence O’Donnell.
          Blow once retweeted a blog of mine, but he was stuck in an airplane when he received it. We’ll see what happens.

          • @Amsterdam

            >>>Blow once retweeted a blog of mine, but he was stuck in an airplane when he received it. We’ll see what happens.


            I did send a email to Jeffrey Weiner regarding why did he not provide a link to the AIS suit, and he emailed me like within 5 minutes with a response and I wrote a blog piece on it. It was fun.

            • That is fun when it happens isn’t it. And it is a sure way to get it out there. I’ll post a comment with a link to Black Kos on the Daily Kos this week. They will share it.

            • Funny funny,
              I found Tony Pipitone. A small twitter war has already begun. Michael Knox has jumped in, sending tweets to pipitone, Crump, Blow., defending himself against The LLMPapa.

              LLMPapa has posted a rebuttal

              So I followed up my tweets with one that has this image attached.

  43. Apparently there’s a hearing today at 9am regarding the defense’s request to get DeeDee’s medical records. Oh boy oh boy, I’d love to hear them state publicy the reasoning behind this. I think it’s based on her saying she was so sick she had to go to the hospital instead of TM’s wake, If they failed to demonstrate the relevance of getting Mr. Crump’s deposition, then I don’t know how they’re going to argue this one.

    • An SYG hearing, or an Immunity hearing?

      They aren’t the same thing, each is a separate and distinct provision of Florida’s Justifiable Use of Force law.


      • Supposed to be an immunity hearing, but doesn’t matter now, no time for it. They’ve gotta hustle for the actual trial.

    • Technically we are in a grey area at present, as BDlR indicated to the press in a few short comments after that were televised. As I understand it, the defense is entitled to an immunity hearing not greater than 45 days before the trial. Therefor the judge set aside time on her schedule in April for this to happen, and then today in court she asked MOM directly if she still needed to hold this time FOR HIM and he said no. BDlR points out that MOM isn’t really making sense when he says this immunity hearing can be “rolled in” to trial. That;s not how courts in Florida operate. But until MOM formally files a motion with the court that he does not desire such a hearing he is still entitled to one. It could be that what he means by “rolling it in” to the trial is that when the trial begins in June the judge will simply inform him that the defendant has a right to an immunity hearing if he so desires, and AT THAT TIME O’Mara will say, “my client waives this right and wishes to proceed with his trial at this time, your honor” and that will be the end of that.

      But I am not a lawyer, and this is just my two cents.

      It makes sense to me however that this is how M’OM is operating because he wants to continue with the APPEARANCE that his client is innocent etc. as long as he can keep up the illusion that GZ is a standup guy ready to swear on a stack of bibles etc that he shot the unarmed teen in self defense.

      I actually am impressed with MOM to be honest. He has correctly assessed that GZ’s fans do not live in a reality based environment, and so long as they can convince themselves inside their little bubble that GZ had “a good shoot” as cops put it, then everything is going to be fine. He’s giving them a face-saving opportunity to pretend that there still will be a “SYG hearing” (whatever that is) where GZ will prevail and no trial will take place, and he will receive immunity from civil suit as well. Like I said, if you don’t reside in a reality based environment, all is well and the sun is shining down and it is all “God’s plan.”

  44. First off as many have think MOM is stalling, remember he asked for a delay until November the Judge ruled against him. In the Florida Stand Your Ground Law there is a provision that if a person use the SYG successfully he/she can not be charged in Federal court or anyother court with related crimes such as “Hate Crimes” (I doubt this part can be actually used Federal Law states that all Federal Law superced State Laws and this has been up held by the Supreme Court may times) the innunity clause goes on to protect the person from civil suits, such as a wrongful death lawsuit, all the proof that is really need would be a copy of the trial record showing the person was convicted of the crime. Now I am thinking MOM still wants this immunity hearing, is he not thinking he can’t win Zimmerman case?

  45. Here is a link To Knox’s blog where Knox responds to Papa’s video by accusing Papa of faulty measurements when in fact Knox is the one who has the measurements WRONG. Knox does not even get the simplest , most basic stuff right. His argument against Papa is based on his faulty data from flawedhis photogrammetry….YIKES !

    For example: Using his photogrammetry Knox measured the mannequin’s head as being 12.6 inches when in fact it is 10.5 inches.

    • Knox closed the comments on that page once people started calling him out on his mistakes effectively. Asshat. At this point, he’s either a total idiot for not recognizing his error, or he knows he messed up and is an egotistical fool for continuing weak attacks against his critics in a futile effort to save face.

  46. GZLegalCase website yesterday updated the funds raised and expenses (See below).
    Of note GZ’s living expenses were $11,735 for almost 3 months (probably includes their rent but not spending money). So let’s just say that’s for 3 months. Multiply times 4 and you get $46,940 a year. That’s CASH. So if someone were to earn that much take-home pay, they’d have to make $67,000 a year, based on about 30% taxes. Quite a nice salary for someone who hasn’t quite earned an associates degree yet. Just sayin’

    EXPENSES FOR JANUARY 1 – MARCH 3, 2013: $43,670.58

    Experts: $16,000
    Household / Living Expenses: $11,734.66 (includes most March expenses)
    Security: $500.00
    Law Firm Support and Infrastructure: $8,716.92
    Case Related Expenses: $5,879.31
    Fund Management Fees: $645.94
    Other Expenses: $193.75

    • Around Sanford, rents are roughly $750 for a smallish 2-bed apartment up to about $1500 for a 4-bed house. Extended stay motels are $38 to $68 a night (1200 to 2100 a month) at the nightly rate, all with discounts increasing the longer you stay.
      So out of that 11,724 no way they’ve spent more than 3900 on rent. That leaves about $8000 for electricity, transport, food. The phones and internet are paid up. $600 + a week is a heck of a lot of pizza and burger king.

      There’s people bring up families of 3 or 4 kids for a lot less than that….

      • “$600 + a week is a heck of a lot of pizza and burger king.”

        I’m guessing he doesn’t go food shopping at Target anymore. Can’t get delivery, maybe they have to send the security guys out for the pizza runs.

  47. It was reported that the Zimmerman case has caused the city of Sanford over $600,000. The breakdown is below. Interesting that somebody kept close tabs on this. Note the last line item: $35 for a new city logo. Why are they attributing a new logo to this case? The old logo had a steamship on it and says “Historic Waterfront Gateway Sanford Florida Incorporated 1877”

    The new logo just says “SANFORD FLORIDA 1877” (won’t put a link since wordpress might put me in moderation.)
    How does this help their image? (scratching head).

    •Total police payroll expenses: $187,000
    The biggest piece: $131,000 in overtime.

    •Stenstrom, McIntosh, Colbert, Whigham & Partlow P.A. (the city’s law firm): $63,000
    •The search for a new police chief: $33,800
    •Stage, audio, video equipment for Trayvon rallies: $29,000
    •Crisis public relations, PR and marketing: $26,000
    •Interim police Chief Richard Myers: $13,000
    •Temporary office staffers: $11,000
    •Advertising: $10,300 (Legal and other ads placed in the Orlando Sentinel, Sanford Herald, Orlando Weekly)
    •Copyright fee for a new city logo: $35

    Read more:

    • According to whois records, that site should still be up
      Domain Name:
      Created on…………..: 2012-07-20
      Expires on…………..: 2013-07-20
      BUT the error page refers to a webmaster address at which is a deleted domain name again available for purchase (deleted Feb 3). . That may have been the outfit hosting the site.

      Someone is not keeping a good eye on that site. Who was webmaster on the first begsite?

      • I don’t think the parents got much traffic/donations in their website beyond the first few days after announcing it probably. RZ Sr. wrote like two posts this whole time, so I guess they just let it go.

        • Hey, WSI. I’m starting to think someone else should contact NLME about a new forum here. Feel like giving it a shot?

          • It’s only been a week since you emailed him. He may come around yet. Even though he doesn’t write much, he likes to hunt for a good picture for each post (kinda like the one we have now). If not, I’ll bug him in a few days.

            • I know he’s busy; I’m just wondering if he even checks the email anymore, lol. I don’t know if he uses it for more than just the blog. He seems to be around on twitter more regularly, so maybe in a week or so, someone could tweet him for a new forum if one doesn’t pop up before that time. *shrug*

  48. Why does the media continue to show photos of Trevon when he was 12 years old?

    Have you seen the photos of him at age 17, with the Gold grill and all the tats? The lamestream media has only used those innocent-looking photos for one reason, to hide the fact that “Little” Treyvon was a 6 ft 2-inch adult at age 17, not the sweet-looking 12 year old you’ve seen.

    • Sigh. Thomas, you’ve been on the stormfront site, haven’t you. Trayvon was only two weeks past his 17th birthday when he was murdered by George Zimmerman. 17 year olds are not adults.
      “All the tats”? Please tell us all about the one or two tats Trayvon had–perhaps one in honor of his grandmother. Zimmerman has tats–so what?
      The Medical Examiner’s report shows that Trayvon was 5’11” (only 3″ taller than Zimmerman) and weighed 158 lbs. to Zimmerman’s 200-240.

        • I fed a stray cat once. It just kept coming back for more. ;P

      • I think this is all just more biased. I have tattoos I know alot of people with tattoos, I don’t see what the big deal is with a gold tooth I also know people a gold tooth, it is not uncommon. It is pathic in my view that people who are trying to villify TM.

        • yes many of those calling Trayvon a thug would have tatoos and smoke pot themselves. gee i wonder what is different about trayvon that makes him a thug and not them. hmmmmm what could that be?

  49. I’ve e-mailed NLME about starting a new thread, others have also e-mailed him–I don’t know what else we can do to keep the discussion going here.

    Missing the conversations and updates. Sigh.

  50. This is a side story, it concerns the Florida Stand Your Ground law. Although a Task Force made up of those who support the law and get money from the gun lobby found nothing wrong with the law. The Florida Legistrators are sugguesting some changes, one is that the person who is “standing his/her ground” be required to show the gun and even fire a warning shot. I think the Legistrators know they have a bad law but want the money as well.

  51. I have questioned the State of Florida issuing a Concealed Weapons Permit to GZ, a self admitted Attention Defect patient who is also being treated with drugs that are known to have side effects that cause violent behavior. I just found out in a Florida case of a Donald Montanez a defendent on a murder charge who used the Florida Stand Your Ground Law and had been issued a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit, was a criminal, with a long history of criminal activities and convictions, like robbery, used some five aliaese, his real name is Rivera and six social security numbers, all against Florida laws on who should not get a concealed weapons permit. Now under Florida law, the only way Montanez/Rivera can lose his concealed weapons permit is that either he turns it in or the State asks a judege to revoke the permit. Currently nothing has happened, he is in Florida State Prison with a valid Concealed Weapons Permit and more than likely will leave the Prison with the same valid permit. Now I know why GZ got his permit.

    • They aren’t racists; they just play ones in the media. ;P

      • The link below gives Juniors half-a$$ed explanation of his tweets, not that I care. But the article says that he’s a classical singer who’s had to put his music on hold because of this case. This is the first I’ve heard about what he did for a living, or I wonder if it was not his “job” but his “hobby” that he’s trying to get attention for so he can make it into a career (although it’s a weird segue to go from brother of accused murderer to the opera house.)

        • Previous version I heard he worked for a law firm and had to put THAT career on hold………

          Wonder if it was his idea, or THEIR idea, for him to part ways with that employer…

          • Hi Aussie…just wondering if you post on Whonoze’s blog as Aussiekay ? I wanted to post a reply to you on Whonoze’s blog but am sorry to say that I cannot tolerate the sarcasm of one of the commenter’s there. So if you are indeed Aussiekay, I would like to post my comment here. Thanks !

    • @Leelee, is that a pleasant surprise? That is, are you surprised that just someone is still here on bcclist, or are you surprised specifically that unitron is ‘here too’, as in he’s on so many other blogs that you’re surprised he’s here on our little domain as well?? Sorry, I get amused easily 🙂

      • I miss many of the insightful posters, BCC felt like home. Sorry to say that I am not fond of Unitron`s posts. I mean no disrespect, I just find it difficult having to wade through his posts, but I guess that is the nature of the blogging beast.

    • When I first posted to this thread, I checked the little box that says “Notify me of follow-up comments via email” and when someone else posts here it does.

      Apparently it never expires.


  52. WSI you wrote on whonoze`s blog : “@ aussie, Good catch with the early 30′s age not being consistent with the “little sister”, Now I’m thoroughly confused….

    There seems to be some confusion as to how many siblings there are. Did Reuter`s get it wrong when they reported there are 4 siblings , George, Robert, Dawn, Grace ? Here is the link :

    Robert And Gladys site states 3 children :
    Junior : 1980
    George : 1983
    Sister Dawn ? : 1986

    If one of the sisters is indeed a half-sister by another mother, could Dawn be the “little sister” while Grace would be the half-sister ( possibly in her 30’s).How, when and by whom was the term `little sister“ used Thanks !

    • GZ refers to his sister Gracie on his myspace page as his lil sista. My impression is that she spells her name that way also and it’s not just a nickname, but not 100%. I take it that Dawn is the older half-sister not mentioned in the parents website.

      • Ok thanks for the info, I looked up his myspace and I get the impression that the “lil’ sista” comment is in reference to her size and not her age. He says “my lil sista hits like a grown MOTHER FUCKIN MAN!! My brother refers to me as his little sister even though I am 2 years older and I notice that Reuter’s has her as Grace.

    • Of interest, this website was defunct a little awhile ago, apparently due to a bad webmaster. It was just put up again a few days ago, and in RZ Sr’s first update since, he chose to write about Witness 8, aka DeeDee. He writes “I remain confused”. Yes he is. As bad as I feel for this man being put in this position by his son, his update seems to say that his son got arrested because DeeDee was portrayed as a traumatized minor, when in fact she is now 19 (or 18 last year). As if she can’t be traumatized at 18 either, or if her actual age really has anything to do with what happened on Feb. 26, 2012.

      • Indeed confused ! How about this statement too : “Are the parents complicit in the dissemination of completely false information contributing to George being charged with murder?”

        My question is : Are the parents of George Zimmerman complicit in the dissemination of information contributing to George/Shellie being charged with perjury?

        • RZ also says “Additionally, when Mr. Crump continually repeated in the media false information concerning the parents involvement, why did they not immediately contact the media correcting this misinformation?”

          This is a mantra heard again and again regarding the misinformation of her age. Mr. Crump mentioned her age when going on TV around the time her interview was released. Why would DeeDee or parents who didn’t want anything to do with this case in the first place feel like they should reach out and contact the media just to correct her age? From the point of view of TM’s family, what is more important about her story? The fact that she heard the beginning of a fight that ended up in the death of their son, or the fact that she’s actually 2 years older than first reported. Talk about ignoring the elephant.

        • “..dissemination of completely false information contributing to George being charged with murder?” ..”

          yeah, sure, George was only charged because DeeDee was only 16.

      • funny how it is active again immediately after Jnr. ignited a racist spark…..might be hoping for renewed interest and some $$$$..

        Robers Snr. needs to address his own sons lies (all 10,000 of them) before he worries about the 2 lies a scared girl who didn’t shoot anyone told.

        • You said it ! In my eyes Sr. has absolutely no right to grandstand against Deedee when he continually defends George’s lies in his multiple inconsistent statements and outright blatant lies to the Court.

  53. I haven’t posted before but now I can’t hold back. I think it’s time to fight fire with fire. I met the Zimmerman Jr. Guy here in Cali. I KNEW he looked familiar but I couldn’t figure out from where. WE HUNG OUT – He gave me his card & asked me not 2 give out any info: real secretive guy. Imagine how schocked I was when I saw him on TV at the gym and realized who he was! I think he lives in CA now or at least it appears that way. We hung out in LA – I’m gonna give him a piece of my mind: number on card is [REDACTED]; he never answers but he calls back. He hides behind tweets & now there’s a way 2 contact him.

    • When did you hang out with him? It appears to be a new number. [REDACTED] , Unlisted, Wireless, NEW CINGULAR WIRELESS PCS, LLC, txt.att .net, 0, 0. [REDACTED], Unlisted, Wireless, NEW CINGULAR WIRELESS PCS, …
      Not that I would ever call him because I certainly have nothing to say to him that would matter in this case. I think his tweets are par for the course from him and his family.

    • @Pete P. I have no idea if that phone number is or legit or why you are choosing to post it. Although this site is seeking justice for Trayvon, we are not in the business of publishing or disseminating phone numbers of individuals, especially those with the potential to be harrassed and when it seemed that it was given to you in confidence. Sorry, but I will have to try to contact NMLE who hosts this blog but has been absent for awhile and ask him to delete your posts. I can’t let this blog be accused of doxing someone, even if it’s GZ’s brother.

        • Thanks Deb. Also, if anyone reading this has a twitter account, can you please tweet NLME (Bcclist) and just ask him to check his blog and email ASAP. I know he’s on twitter often. Thanks.

          • You may want to also post this request over at Whonoze’s blog. I have no idea why this person is bringing this mess here, but it’s not welcome on this blog. We all know I think Jr. is a schmuck, but even schmucks have the right not to be harassed. SMH. We don’t get down like that here.

            • @QETNO, “even schmucks have the right not to be harassed. SMH”

              Lol! How true. I emailed NLME, cross fingers. (Yeah I know, NLME ignored your request for a new thread, maybe he’s waiting for it to hit 1000 comments???). Nope, there are some Leatherman readers on Whonoze’s blog as well, I don’t want to spread this thing farther. Besides, many who currently post over on Whonoze’s blog get notifications from here also.

            • See conspiracy in everything — yes I do — however, anyone familiar with this blog knows its policies and reputation (I learned the hard way via unitron) so either the guy who posted “schmuck’s” # is not familiar or it’s an effort to start a bruhaha deflection of some sort. . . and yes it’s hard, albeit not impossible, for me to take his little post at face value, hence conspiracy.

  54. What do y’all think about the letter from GZ’s “mom?” The letter has RZ Jr. written all over it, IMO.

      • I think RZ Jr. likely penned the letter, but with the approval of the mom. I don’t think it matters who wrote it, but I just find it interesting the family has now accepted RZ Jr. speaking out when initially RZ Sr. said he shouldn’t be talking on behalf of GZ, and that he wasn’t even in contact with GZ.

    • I think the last four short lines of the letter could have been written by Gladys, as it reads similarly to her speaking style in English. As for the rest of the letter, though, yep, it has RZ’s thumbprint all over it.

      • That’s what I thought, too; the entire letter read like just another rant from Jr., but then I got to those last four lines, which read more like how we’ve heard Gladys Zimmerman speak. These folks are just really something else.

        • “Despite the mythological monster the media created, those who knew George did not abandon him….”

          Like Joe Oliver and Mark Osterman forming the 2-man rally of token friends?

          “My son has always told the truth……”

          Good ol’ honest Abe.

          “The upcoming trial will not disappoint you. The truth will finally be revealed to many,”

          We sure hope so!

          • “Pray not only for George and his family but ask God the Father to speak directly to the hearts of those who have mistreated George for far too long.”

            Like his cousin who alleged GZ molested her?

            Like the law enforcement officer who alleged GZ put hands on him?

            Like his ex who alleged DV?

            Do I need to keep going???

            Give me a break!!! Poor little victim George; everyone is always out to get him apparently. Long Live St. Zimmerman! I’ll pray for those that it appears GZ mistreated. I’ll pray for the illumination in the minds of the narrow-minded.

            Insulting people’s intelligence and making George out to be mistreated and a helpless victim may work for donations pre-trail, but I guarantee it will be an unwise strategy to take into a trial.

      • Not only is bad taste timeless, but apparently continuing to post completely disproven pictures is also.
        Global rumblings, qziggymom, and sodahead (probably more), as recently as March, are continuing to post pictures of the 30 year old rapper Game and claiming that it’s a picture of Trayvon.
        Don’t know how to post on their blogspot/wordpress/com in order to refute their continued lies. If you do, please go for it!

        • OK–I was able to post on global rumblings, but not on the other two. Correction: it’s a12iggymom, not qziggymom.
          Incredible what lies these right wing sites continue to tell.

  55. Somewhat off topic, but related to profiling anyway. I just heard on the news regarding the explosions in Boston, a by-stander chased down a Saudi national who was seen running from the scene. He is reported to be under questioning by the police and cooperative. They don’t know what’s going on right now, but imagine some poor guy was just trying to get away from the bomb and someone in the crowd decides he just “looks” like a terrorist and tackles him. Don’t people remember how the 911 hijackers were clean shaven and in western clothing?

  56. It now appears that O’Mara now has a total of 210 people on his witness list and the list keeps growing. Among those O’Mara list is some 72 police officers from Sanford PD, that is half the police force. 81 people are said to be character witness for GZ, I personal think GZ is going to need a lot more. The Zimmerman family is also on the list. It is surprising that there appears to be no one from that night, except the officers on the list?

  57. Just another follow-up tomorrow the Prosecutors demanding that GZ and O’Mara publicly state they want or don’t want an pre-trial immunity challenge. O’Mara has been going back and forth on this issue for some time. The last time he told the public he did not want a “Stand Your Ground” hearing but did want the Judge to hold a hearing on the aspect of the law that will prevent any further criminal or civil action against GZ should he be found not guilty.

    Further O’Mara is now claiming the social media, all social media, should not be involved in criminal cases. Excuse me Mr. O’Mara didn’t you use the social media to advocate for GZ?

  58. April 30, 2013 Mr. G. Zimmerman declined the stand your ground hearing. So now it’s off to court in June. Will be tuned in to see where this goes it took long enough for us to get here. So I can wait a few more weeks.

  59. Please direct me to a video of today’s hearings. Work got in the way, can you believe it?

  60. Well O’Mara has released new photos and text message on TM and wants the Judge to allow him to use them. Also O’Mara wants to show TM may have been on marihuana at the time he was shot. The Medical examiner did report finding THC in TM but not enough show TM was under the influence the night TM was killed. Again O’Mara claims he is not trying to portray TM as a villain, but if you ask me O’Mara is doing a hell of job of doing just that.

    • What I’d like to know is how a video showing two homeless men fighting each other could be mistaken for a video of two of TM’s friends beating up a homeless man. I mean, do we believe that O’Mara misspoke, or did he actually watch the video and made the wrong conclusion without validation? I’d like to know the races and approximate ages of those men to see how assumptions were made. Afterall, this whole tragedy started with the assumptions of a cop wannabe. We don’t need more ASS-umptions in that courtroom.

  61. I know that in the beginning much has been discussed about why GZ killed TM. And now as the trial approaches evidence is being argued about. One witness an audio expert Alan R. Reich. He has stated that he can show that TM begged GZ to stop. Perhaps that alone may rebuke the fight that GZ claims happened. However Reich further claims that he can show what GZ said in response to TM pleas. According to Reich GZ responded saying “These shall be” what some think is some religious statement. Now thinking back, O’Mara has stated GZ while in jail read the bible and many of us remember GZ Fox interview and GZ saying to the effect that he believed he was only doing Gods will when he shot TM. It makes me wonder was GZ on some sort of religious crusade?,0,903275.story

  62. As jury selection continues it appears that GZ father has released a book that may not help his son. This is consider on chapter of the book is entitled “Who Are The True Racists” with RZ opinions on such groups as:

    Congressional Black Caucus. “[A] pathetic, self-serving group of racists… advancing their purely racist agenda.” He later adds that “all members of Congress should be ashamed of the Congressional Black Caucus, as should be their constituents.” And finally: “They are truly a disgrace to all Americans.”


    The NAACP. “[S]imply promotes racism and hatred for their own, primarily finical, interests” and “without prejudice and racial divide, the NAACP would simply cease to exist.”.

    I wonder if the FBI will reopen their investigation on the possible racism in the case.

  63. I would be interested to know his feelings about The Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society. However instead of calling him an idiot and stooping to his level, how many of you understand the need for and work done by Congressional Black Caucus and NAACP?

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