It’s been awhile and I hope all is going well. Not much had happened in the Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman case but within the past few weeks a tentative trial date of June 10, 2013 was set.
I’m currently in the process of shutting off the comment sections of the previous BccList.com postings. I will keep adding new forum postings like this one as the number of comments grow.
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Can you add: http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b for me? It’s my little evidence collection. It’s a dump but once one finds their way around it’s useful. And it also has an internal search box, which can be a big help. I add to it all the time so you can have a lot of links without having to store them independently. Thanks
SPD target of discrimination lawsuit against one of their own:
Hmmm, I can see people’s very confused reaction to this story. As in, “OMG, SPD discriminates against minorities. Hernandez is Peurto Rican, is that the same as Peruvian? But wait, they wanted GZ exonerated and he’s hispanic, no wait he was white at the time, no wait then he became white hispanic, no wait, now he’s just hispanic……” Oy vay, I don’t know anything about this lawsuit, but whether it’s about race or not, I think the big underlying disease is the “clique” mentality that the police department has, just with overgrown men. How you fit into the clique is based on how well you get on socially, that’s a cultural thing and not strictly about the shade of your skin (remember Witness #9’s statement about how GZ’s mother didn’t like black people unless they acted white, whatever that is?).
At issue is how the police department perceived the shooter and the victim that night. Most of the officers including Serino initially believed GZ (Serino told Witness 18 that it was OK, the guy yelling for help was alive). However, notice in the emergency “prophylactic” gag order that O’Mara said that the “consensus” among the police officers was that GZ should not be charged.
Click to access Emergency%20Motion%20for%20Protective%20Order.pdf
But it wasn’t a “unanimous” decision. It was a “consensus” among them “WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF SGT. RANDY SMITH” and Serino didn’t object. Now wasn’t Smith the first on the scene? I will bet you that he saw something about GZ that didn’t sit right with him, but he may not have felt in the position to go all out against the police chief based on his gut feeling, and Serino kept quiet for the same reason (And why wasn’t Singleton in those meetings? Not part of the boy’s club?). Speak out and what happens to you? Get demoted to the night shift. All the other officers simply took a quick glance at the Neighborhood Watch guy and dead black kid and one witness talking about MMA blows, and said “Looks pretty clean” (from MO’s book). Whether or not TM being black had anything to do with their conclusions, I just wonder how much they were influenced by GZ’s “cop talk”, and yes, by buddy MO. Another way to look at it, would they have arrested GZ initially if he had his mother’s thick accent? Maybe.
The first officer on scene was Timothy Smith. I don’t recall anything about Randy Smith. Is he one of those black officer’s Serino claimed had pressured him into filing charges?
An article on OS states Randy Smith was Serino’s boss at the time.
Oh,,,,thanks for the clarification on the Smiths….Didn’t know Smith is still that common of a name!
Actually, according to this article, it was Serino and Randy Smith at the re-enactment. Remember the other older white man in the video? I guess that would be R. Smight, so no, he’s not black. From listening to Serino’s interrrogations, it didn’t seem like he needed “pressuring” by any fellow officers.
Thanks for that info! I can’t quite figure out Serino. The whole “the blacks were pressuring me” still doesn’t make sense to me. If only we actually knew what really went on within the SPD and between SPD and the SA’s office.
Indeed. There was no credible investigation into the activities of the SPD and Norm Wolfinger’s office, and that to me is an equal or greater shame than the crime itself. We will always have our George Zimmermans, vigilante blowhards but the public servants who failed to indict him in the first go-round are by definition either incompetent, corrupt or racially biased, or some combination of any three of those options. Any fool could see he was lying, and Serino and Singleton caught him in several obvious contradictions that prove he was lying.
I tend to think Serino was doing the best he could, and had he been given more time he would have built a solid case against GZ, assuming he was given a free hand and the resources needed to do his job. I ascribe the corruption and bias to his boss, Chief Bill Lee, but we’ll never know. No one investigated, and no one seems willing to spill the beans. I think Wolfinger was just lazy and wanted a slam dunk case, but again we can’t know. Both these men have moved on.
wilis i completely agree with you. I also think Singleton did what she could, in the tapes her voice sounds frustrated, sometimes more so than Serino..Singleton called GZ out on a lot of occasions and clearly did not believe a word he said.
I LOVE Singleton. I hope they put her on the witness stand. Even though they have her interviews with GZ taped, I think there’s no substitute for getting her inner thoughts as his story broke down during the 2/29 interview when they went through the NEN call play by play. His confident “yes ma’am’s” became a bunch of “I don’t remember” ‘ s. Unlike the women in his life, GZ couldn’t fool that smart cookie.
Prosecution’s motion for gag order of GZ defense team denied:
Darn, the judge also denied the state access to GZ’s full medical records. She says “Any injuries received that night would clearly be relevant to a self-defense claim, as would any similar injuries present before that night or continuing symptoms after that night,” she wrote. “Observations of the defendant’s physical appearance surrounding the date of the shooting may also be relevant. However, other medical records relating to the treatment of untreated maladies should not be disclosed.”
I don’t understand what “the treatment of untreated maladies” means. Sounds like a double negative. Anyway, Lady, we don’t care about GZ’s irritable bowel syndrome. We want to know if he’s nuts. I wonder why the state can’t even LOOK at GZ’s full medical records to be able to argue what would be admissible and released. I respect Judge Nelson, but can she alone make a ruling on what particular medications GZ might have been taking that would be relevant? I hope she uses a medical consultant to make her decision. Even so, the state should be able to look at the whole thing to make their argument. Come on, let’s level the playing field. I mean, they did a tox screen and autopsy on TM. Only fair GZ submit to a full medical exam now, and we’ll let Judge Nelson rule on whether that should include a colonoscopy….
Arggggghhhh, don’t newspapers like the Orlando Sentinel do editorial checks on their articles? Journalism isn’t what it used to be. I was confused about their quote from Judge Nelson’s ruling on the medical records “However, other medical records relating to the treatment of UNTREATED maladies should not be disclosed”
Actually, what was written was “However, other medical records relating to the treatment of UNRELATED maladies should not be disclosed”
That makes more sense. Unfortunately still, we won’t get to know what was or not disclosed, ARGGGHHHH!
Is amphetamine rage an unrelated malady? Perhaps the prosecution needs to be specific in an additional motion to the court.
Don’t know, Is “a$$-hole-phobia” a diagnosis?
Dunno. It can’t be diagnosed, since “they always get away.”
Thanks for the new thread. NLME.
I hope everyone and thier loved ones survived hurricane Sandy.
Thanks for the new thread. Much easier to deal with on a mobile device!
I’m not sure I agree with the judge’s ruling on medical records but at the end if the day I’m be glad I’d the trial didn’t have to include a parade of experts on prescription drug side effects, etc. The pills didn’t shoot an unarmed teenager, George did.
He may have anger management problems and he may have been affected by the cocktail of drugs in his system, but I’d hate to have to sit though a “Twinkie” defense that attempts to excuse any actions he undertook due to the influence of medication.
Not worried about the defense excusing his behavior on meds. He’s not “looney” enough for an insanity defense, and certainly should be accountable for what he did while on or not on meds. Besides, his kind of crazy hasn’t been described in the diagnostic manual.
Jose Baez writes letter to JDN telling her BDLR got his facts wrong about him:
Long time I haven´t come here so not sure if I should post this on your forum but I thought some might like a bit of a laugh with a little ditty I just wrote for the Leatherman blog. I´ve re-worked it a wee bit, (nothing´s ever perfect and I´m obsessive), so all lines end with “God´s Plan”. Hope you enjoy it:
Oh, dear, what can the matter be
I shot Trayvon and the whole thing blew up at me
I should be the the hero… I’m sure I deserve to be
‘Cos I know it was all in “God’s Plan”
One night while patrolling, protecting the colony
I saw a young hoodie, where I thought he shouldn´t be
To me he looked suspect, despite walking leisurely
So what could I do in God´s Plan”
I called the police to inform of the suspect
But I knew it was useless ‘cos hoodies run fastest
So I tracked and pursued him right down to my lastest
What else could I do, it´s “God´s Plan”
Now Angela Corey´s gone charged me with murder
And some even say she should have gone further
I feel so contraried I can´t stop eating burger
Help, what can I do with “God´s Plan”
At least Shelly supports me, and so does O´Money
And Osterman used to, but he’s now acting funny
He´s written a book telling more lies than any
Help, what can I do, it´s “God´s Plan”
The Treehouse and Alec donate me their dollars
But it just goes to show they aren’t studious scholars
‘Cos they’ll drop me tomorrow if they realise who hollers
Please what can I do with “God´s Plan
If I ever get through this, it won´t be my doing
I´ve lied and contorted, which should be my ruin
But seeking justice for Trayvon is not for my wooing
It´s through no fault of mine it´s “God´s Plan”
If I go to prison I could start a new hobby
Mentoring lawyers and burglars and unfaithful hubbies
I could teach them to lie without being sloppy
When something goes wrong with “God´s plan”
Just a quick note that I survived the hurricane, and just today got my Internet and phone back, though i’m still running on generator power for electricity. No storm damage in my neighborhood to speak of, but losing all the utilities has had me kinda weirded out. I even did a bit of work on the sec-cam vid, but still a long ways to go.
I will be happy to move out of Connecticut. I’ll probably get to California just in time for an earthquake.
Hi, whonoze; glad to hear you’re ok! I hope power is restored to your area soon. Thanks for the update.
@Whonoze, glad you’re ok. I didn’t lose power, but I think it was because Irene had already knocked down a bunch of vulnerable trees around power lines last year. Just don’t sniff the fumes coming from that generator. BTW, as I was snooping around Leatherman’s blog, I read that LLMPAPA wanted to know how people were synching the security videos. Don’t know if you wanted to tell him or invite him to read oh, the billion of comments you and everybody else had posted here over months to get to where you are now on that….
Whonoze, happy to know that you are well. Virtual hugs.
Good on you, Whonoze. Didn’t know you were in that area. Having lived through a cyclone in the 70s, I am sure it must have been rough for a while there. Really makes us appreciate those utilities, too, doesn’t it?
If you want to avoid earthquakes, guess you could stay off the coasts. Kentucky maybe?
Hi aussiekay, I’ve been following your comments and investigative work since the beginning and my hat is off to you sir. I just wanted to add, (I have not seen it posted anywhere that I have been reading), the pictures that were taken of George Zimmerman from SPD. Notice which way the blood dripping from his wounds are going. If George Zimmerman was on his back, as he claims, the blood would have dripped from the wounds to the back of his head. Yet, the dried blood indicates to me as though he was leaning forward. (As if he was on top of Travon).
This was posted today by Blushed Brown @ 420pm today. Hope this helps….
I have also come to that same conclusion.
Bloody Nose video WARNING: GRAPHIC and he does some nasty things.
This is the so far the best video to depict two things regarding photo
of GZ in back of the LE vehicle.
1) The drip of blood at the tip of GZ nose.
2) The blood on GZ lips.
This video made me think of a couple of things.
The drip on his nose, is from leaning forward.
The blood on his lips should of been wiped from licking his lips.
Witness 13 took 3 photos: Back of GZ head, tactical flashlight, Trayvon’s dead body. He did not take
a frontal shot of his face. Considering that this was according to GZ, the first punch thrown by Trayvon, this
would of been the most significant picture he would of wanted taken right then and there.
I have a couple of thoughts on this:
At the time these pictures were taken @ 7:19, I believe GZ did not want a frontal view of his face taken. He knew people heard and saw things already. He just didn’t know what. We all know his propensity to lie and take what other people know and use it to his advantage.
I believe that when he was holding Trayvon down, he had the gun close to his face. Taking into considertion the Medical Examiner’s Report of the Gun Shot wound, there would of been little space between them. He would of pointed the gun high near his face, with his knees on either side of Trayvon.
He was doing two things simultaneously, hold Trayvon’s sweatshirt down with his dominant hand (left), while making
sure he didn’t hit his hand and aim for the kill shot, through his heart.
Also, from countless internet searches, this gun is cheaply made that has alot of recoil. Another point to consider is that he used his non-dominant hand which is the right hand with a one hand grip. Most internet searches show a reasonable amount of recoil with people using both hands on that gun. Imagine with only one hand. The nick and nose bleed, I believe, was caused by this action.
Comparing the video of the young man bleeding from his nose he is leaning forward, hence the drip at the tip of his nose. If he was on his back, like he claims, the picture taken should of shown blood from his nose going towards his hairline or and towards his cheekbones.
This young man in the video had a fight and his nose was bleeding badly.
I did note something that the young man did, that GZ didn’t do and that was he licked his lips. One would think this would be a “normal reaction” by someone. But then again that’s why we believe someone enhance that on the photo. Also in his video the blood seems to be coming mainly from one nostril. No apparent swelling.
GZ had to be leaning forward over Trayvon for that one drop of blood to land on his clothing.
The recoil hits him in the nose. He checks Trayvon for a weapon, finds none, while he is doing that a single drop of GZ blood falls
on Trayvon’s sweatshirt.
IIRC that was the only blood of GZ found on Trayvon. No other DNA of GZ was found on Trayvon, this is supported by DNA reports. One drop of blood of GZ was found on Trayvon.
If we are to believe that Trayvon punched GZ at the on set of the fight. GZ would of been leaking all over the place.
Blood would of been all over Trayvon. That is not the case. Just looking at the video shows how much blood leaks from a
The only reasoning I can come up with, is that the nose injury occured AFTER the gunshot.
Immediately after the shooting, he doesn’t know if this witness saw the gun hit him. So he only let’s him take a back of head photo.
Because GZ knows that Witness 6 (John) will back him up, he saw him on the ground for a second or two.
He doesn’t know what this other guy saw.
What does GZ do? He starts a conversation with him to find out how much he knows. “Man this guy was beating me up, so I had to shoot him?”
GZ wants to know how much this guy saw. He doesn’t tell this guy “OMG, I just shot someone”, or he doesn’t say “Hey call an ambulance!”
He is already thinking about how to gather up his story to make it work to his advantage.
Then comes the police. He’s handcuffed, and sitting in the back of a police car. Plenty of time to come up with some bullcaca.
@7:19 photo taken of back of head by bystander.
@7:25 photo taken by LEO Michael Wagner
@7:40 emt start cleaning him up. (No mention of how he got the bloody nose)(Report EMT caused by some blunt object)
@7:52 arrives at cop shop
@11:21 CSI tech D Smith takes admitted killer pics of hands face hands etc.
EMT O’Rourke testified at the Bond Hearing that he was NOT BLEEDING when he started care.
EMT O’Rourke also testified that he cleaned him up and applied ice packs.
Between the time the Wagner Photo is taken and the Emt arrives is about 15 minutes.
I don’t know how long the drive is from The Retreat to the Police sation. But considering that they arrived 12 minutes after clean up. The clean up must of not been that long or the drive was not that long. Someone else can figure that out, if they like.
Apparently this so called broken nose starting healing thyself. By the time CSI tech takes the pictures at the station @ 11:21, there is no misalignment of the nose. No blood gushing out. No swelling. Hell there is not even a Kleenex stuck in
Also noted that he refused transport to Hospital, Why? They have X-Ray machines!
Refused transport again at cop shop 3 times. Why? They have real doctors, not EMT’s. No offense to EMT’s.
Refused Ear Nose Throat, recommended by his own PA. Why? More of the same.
So in conclusion I hope they do enter the photos into evidence.
Bernie DL Rionda can paint a better picture then what I did, in regards to those particluar photos.
PS I will post some recoil videos. I can only post one link at a time, because the comment gets caught in moderation.
I watched the video……and the thought occurred to me.
If the nose was broken with the first punch, and fogen was on his back, then the blood should be running down the sides of his face……cheeks, eyes etc.
NOT straight down from his nostrils as this would indicate he was in an upright position.
Add in the fact that GZ claims that he was smothered. If this was true we would see that his cheeks and the bridge of his nose would have smudges or blood trails also. The blood is only visible in the middle of the mustache area and lips. Are we to assume that Trayvon Martin said to him, “Hold still I don’t want to get blood all over your face, just in your mustache and lips”. I think not.
Police were at the scene almost right after the gunshot. Police are not going to allow you wipe your face, they want to document injuries. As they did @7:25. the only problem for GZ by this photo is that it does not depict what he is telling. Hence the possiblity of photoshopping.
Any way they cut it, meaning O’Mara, those pictures do him no good.
Unfortunately the police did not immediately document all of his injuries and get lots of pictures, they let the paramedics clean him up (not sure if that was before or after that one officer took that one cell phone picture of the front of his face), so the cell phone picture of the back of his head may be the only one that documents blood flow and blood flow direction during and immediately after the struggle.
Found It! I will be right back.
Unfortunately the police did not immediately document all of his injuries and get lots of pictures, they let the paramedics clean him up (not sure if that was before or after that one officer took that one cell phone picture of the front of his face), so the cell phone picture of the back of his head may be the only one that documents blood flow and blood flow direction during and immediately after the struggle.
You said “not sure”.
They did take a picture before he was cleaned up.
The one sitting in cop car.
I’ll concede half a point on the back of his head, because that one was not taken by LE, but by a
bystander witness 13. The other photos taken of back of head by LE was taken after the clean up. But they still showed the blood flow direction with the dried blood.
The back of head picture is documented as being taken by bystander W-13 @ 7:19
The cop car sitting forward picture is taken @ 7:25 by Officer Michael Wagner, also documented.
The Emt care started @ 7:40 also documented.
Plenty of pictures taken @ 11:21 @ cop shop by CSI Tech D Smith also documented.
I agree that the picture shows the blood direction. the only problem is blood does not travel upward if you are on your back.
I can post all back up documentation to each event, if you like. 🙂
Are you posting here under two different names, or did I misunderstand something I read?
Anyway, Martin wasn’t pronounced until 7:30, so a picture taking at 7:25 would have been before the paramedics were free to tend to Zimmerman.
Anything on those first two pictures may indicate if he was standing or face up or face down just prior to the arrival of the first responding officer.
Any later ones would only reflect where the blood flowed after the paramedics cleaned him up.
The struggle itself, if we agree it ended right after the gunshot, at which point Zimmerman got up off of the ground, only lasted about a minute and a half, the W-13 photo was taken about 2 minutes after the gunshot after Zimmerman had gotten up and either been leaned over Martin or standing up, so the apparent blood flow might not reflect his body’s orientation prior to the gunshot anyway, so it doesn’t necessarily support or contradict anyone’s theory of what happened.\
Annoying, isn’t it?
Sorry about the confusion, yes I have two names. Its the Gemini in me. 🙂
Zimmerman had gotten up and either been leaned over Martin or standing up, so the apparent blood flow might not reflect his body’s orientation prior to the gunshot anyway, so it doesn’t necessarily support or contradict anyone’s theory of what happened.
I beg to differ, sir. 🙂
It totally contradicts one person in particular, Zimmerman.
Graphic content and he does some nasty things.
Let’s go back in time. If Trayvon punched GZ at the T as GZ claims, and also claims he landed on his back. Let’s freeze that picture in our heads. Blood should of flowed downward toward his cheeks and he should be leaking by now. No blood found at the “T”. GZ also claims that when he punched him he got right on top of him and started punching him so more. That story changed at the reenactment the following day. There is no mentioned that he stumbled or swatted @ Trayvon in his first written statement. Lets start the movie again. Fast forward to next day. He now realizes that the body was found some 40 yds from the initial point of contact. By looking at the boy in the video he bleed for about 2 min. IIRC the fight/struggle lasted for about a minute and half. Someone else may correct me. If he was bleeding from the initial contact, where did all the blood go. He is suppose to be bleeding for at least a minute from initial contact. Even more bleeding should of been produced from the several blows that GZ claims that Trayvon did once he mounted him. Even with a beard/goatee acting somewhat of a barrier, it is not a magnet for all the blood supposedly coming from all this activity GZ is claiming. With several punches to the face, where is all this blood, and more importantly where is the blood on Trayvon’s hands. The picture illustrates more then ever that what he is telling is not true and the injuries do not match up with his story either.
If Zimmerman is on his back getting pummeled into the cement, why is the blood flow going in the other direction depicted in witness 13 pic and the cop shop pictures. He said he was on his back when he shot Trayvon. Where is all the blood from his face from being punched it should be on Trayvon’s hands? No DNA on Trayvon. Blood should be smeared all over his face from being smothered. Where are the smears, picture shows no smears. He was immediately handcuffed at the scene.
The pictures show that the blood flow from his head and face had to be in an upright positon, or leaning forward for most of the confrontation/struggle/fight.
I will concede the point that GZ may have been on the ground rolling around in the wrestling stages of the fight, but it wasn’t for the amount of time he is claiming. I come up with two plausible explanations as to the back of head injury. He slipped on the wet grass, and fell on his back and head and immediately got back up. Or during the struggle with Trayvon, he did get a chance to bang his head and inflict the injury and George still immediately got the superior postion before the cuts started to bleed, hence the blood flow direction. There is no way that he was bleeding on his back, gravity doesn’t lie.
In my minds eye, I don’t see the fight as stationary. Most of the witnesses say they look like they were wrestling. It is very plausible TM was in a superior position. IMHO, I don’t think it was for very long. Considering the pictures of blood flow, I would say almost right after the back of head injury, GZ gained superior postion, that’s why the blood is going towards his ears.
He wasn’t on the ground long enough for the blood to go in the other direction as he claims. He wasn’t on the ground when he shot TM.
He had to be over him.
I know it’s annoying… 🙂
So did Zimmerman do all of his bleeding prior to the gunshot and none of it afterward?
So did Zimmerman do all of his bleeding prior to the gunshot and none of it afterward?
IMHO, Unitron, from all the timed data collected and the timestamped pictures this is what I have concluded.
Bleeding from head before gunshot. Yes. Bleeding from nose before gunshot. No.
The bleeding from the back of head may have started during the altercation. Point being he does have two cuts on his head. There is no disputing that. My only contention is, if he was on his back when the injury occured he was not on his back for very long after that was inflicted. He had to be up within seconds before the bleeding started to flow for the direction it did take.
Did Trayvon inflict that? Possibly yes, because he would of been defending himself against GZ.
The other scenario put out there is that the wound was self inflicted. I don’t put too much stock in that because there is no evidence of that, but I will include that possiblity for you to judge on.
Continued onto next reply box…..
Bleeding after the gunshot. Yes.
Read comment repost:
unitron asked: “So did Zimmerman do all of his bleeding prior to the gunshot and none of it afterward?”
Re: the bleeding in the w13 photo, that’s what some folks have been speculating. Something to do with how long it takes blood to dry, and the fact the streams in the W13 pic seem to be dried or drying, not that fresh.
If you look at the blood trail going under GZ’s left ear in the police station photos, you’ll see it’s the same as one one in the W13 photo:
This means the EMT’s did not clean all the blood off his head. They only cleaned the areas of the actual wounds.
Perhaps, some bleeding could have taken place while GZ stood of TMs body, but look at the trails from the wound on the right of his head. They run to the left, which, it seems to me, they would not do if the occurred while he was looking or standing straight up or down. It seems to me these trails indicate bleeding while he was lying more or less on his back, but with his head or whole body turned 45° to his left. How do you think he wound up in such a position long enough for blood to trickle down that far?
It seems to me these trails indicate bleeding while he was lying more or less on his back, but with his head or whole body turned 45° to his left.
Couldn’t it be said that the blood flow coincide with the angle produced while he was on the phone. 🙂
@WSI, re: Singleton
SPD Investigator Singleton signaled her feelings somewhat on the interview tapes, but what’s worth noting is that both she and Serino played “good cop” throughout the whole process, always leaving room for GZ to think they were sympathetic to his plight, and “wanted to believe his story” if only he could continue to clarify himself. The strategy worked, to a large extent. They simply “gave him enough rope” while George kept talking and talking until he hung himself with his contradictions, lies and “I can’t remember” moments.
What’s missing from the discovery that the defense and public never saw the summary of SIngleton’s interview/ de-briefing by the FDLE and prosecution team. The short summary of Serino to the same parties was released, and the interview with Singleton was listed in an inventory of things to be shared at discovery, but unless I missed it somehow, it seems to have been left out somehow. A savvy investigative journalist should have filed a FOIA request long ago, but as we’ve seen there doesn’t seem to be one working the case that diligently.
Singleton caught wind of George’s fishy story as early as her initial interview, and paused the process to fetch a map for George to mark his supposed positions on. His lies about his movements from near the clubhouse to where he seems to have parked near the cut thru (as a final position) had her suspicions roused quickly. What we don’t know is what her private thoughts were about the case. On the interview tapes we’ve heard the SPD is always hoping to elicit more statements from GZ, and they continually bend over backwards to not confront his lies too harshly, lest he stop talking and “lawyer up,” like any sensible defendant should.
I know I’ve pointed it out many times but the “voice stress test” George willingly submitted to was an obvious ruse by the SPD just to get him to relate his false narrative one more time to a supposedly neutral party, the “test administrator.” Even the long wait where George hangs out with SIngleton, and speaks about respecting authority was likely an intentional tactic to elicit more statements. People get uncomfortable waiting, and often talk to fill the silence when they have something to be nervous about. These are all pretty much “Police 101” interrogation tactics and it’s pathetic that a supposed wannbe cop like GZ didn’t realize the trap he was willingly running himself into.
Here’s a tip, people. Especially if you happen to be innocent (a problem GZ doesn’t have, IMO) NEVER talk to investigators without a lawyer present. Just like the warning George did’t heed when Sean the dispatcher told him his NEN call was recorded, the police told him clearly that “anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.”
Singleton was not a homicide investigator, and she may have handled herself different/better if she had been trained for the job, but Sanford is not a big city, and this case was not perfectly handled, by any means. (She normally works drug cases.) But I would hardly call her the weak link in the chain.
The big caveat is that there is a great deal we don’t know, since the department was never investigated by an outside body. But I think she did her job well enough that Zimmerman should have been charged with a crime with a week of the shooting, if not on the night of the shooting itself. Again, we can’t know for sure but letting him go the night of the shooting may have been an intentional tactic to encourage further “cooperation” aka running off at the mouth. It seemed to work.
I can’t honestly say George’s statements alone prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but Serino and Singleton’s work in the first 48 hours alone establishes fully that he lacks any credibility in the matter. The break in the case they needed turned out to be Dee Dee and the phone call she was on, but Serino and Singleton were HOPING the break would come with a solid eyewitness. The matter got “out of hand” and out of their direct control after that, and truthfully is a bit of a moot point given that the case was taken over by the special prosecutor. But it’s frustrating not knowing what really went on behind the initial investigation.
Yeah, the scary thing is that GZ probably believes his own story even as he weaves different versions of it. At the heart of it, HE believes he was in the right, it was just a matter of how to spin it so he could get off on self-defense or SYG or whatever. But he thought he was smart enough (ahem) and charismatic enough to get by without a lawyer. He may have thought he could gloss over how long and HOW he stalked TM before making the NEN call. DeeDee’s account of this guy watching and looking all crazy had to be attributed to some very odd behavior on GZ’s part.
I saw nothing wrong in how Singleton handled herself in the investigation. In the first day or two, they were gathering evidence. She and Serino were just starting to break GZ’s story apart when her involvement ended. Maybe because she was not a homicide detective, she had to bow out after then. Just as well, she didn’t need to be taken down with the rest of the knuckle dragging SPD.
I have no clue as to why Serino was sent back to patrol duty. I can only assume Singleton is still working narcotics. They drew the blue veil over the whole matter a long time ago. Wolfinger quietly announced his retirement, too. Bill Lee made a stink about his firing but never came clean about his motives or behavior IMO.
We just don’t know.
@Willis, unknown motives aside, I think just plain stubbornness and the unwillingness to be seen as if they’re “giving in” to a public did them in. The more pressure that built up from the outside, the more they just wanted to push back. Too bad the evidence and others higher up didn’t support their position. Bill Lee is probably happier to have been fired then to be seen among his peers of officers as a “wuss”.
I think the intransigence was all on the part of Chief Bill Lee, whose stubbornness extended, like you said, into not wanting to “give in to a mob,” but all the “mob” wanted was a credible investigation and what normally follows such a suspicious fatal shooting. Racial bias played a part in all that, it seems but the effect is so deeply rooted in Sanford it’s difficult to tease out into a definable act. A faction behaving in a reactionary fashion is something that has to be rooted out through new leadership, sunshine and people willing to EVOLVE into the 21st century. A tall order sometimes.
If there was a “them,” that group had Bill Lee as the head and his blind supporters on the city council (and their constituents) on one side, and stuck powerless in the back seat for the ride were his underlings like Serino who had to take his orders so long as Lee was the boss of the department. Serino wanted to charge manslaughter and to continue the investigation. Lee and co. cared more about defending their city and its’ reputation than they did in seeking simple justice. They took offense to being seen as backward, but let’s face it, they acted that way. An unarmed boy was senselessly gunned down while walking home from the store with snacks, and his killer’s story didn’t add up right.
The mayor initially backed the police chief but again, he seemed to care more about the reputation of his city than anything. His vote was a tie breaker first in one direction and finally in another. Sadly, the council seemed to vote along racial lines at each juncture, and that in itself is a sign that there needs to be more evolution and such on all sides, if that’s possible.
As for Wolfinger, we just don’t know enough to make a judgement IMO but that in itself is a shame and also suspicious as well. His refusal to speak to media, esp. the NYT reporter, makes me doubt his motives for silence.
Oh my, where is Shellie hiding that she’s not getting her mail from the court?
“10/31/2012 DEF MAIL RETURNED UNCLAIMED NOTICE TO APPEAR RM 11/01”
She wasn’t home to sign for registered mail, possibly. Not too unusual. It’s doubtful she’s a flight risk for her own sake, and GZ thankfully wears a GPS device. Bur for that IMO they both would have fled the USA long ago with the hidden passport and hidden six figure sum of pay pal donated cash.
Off topic by far, but mitt romney makes a campaign stop in Sanford Fl today.
Shellie’s only charged with perjury, not conspiracy to murder, so she could be in Lithuania and it wouldn’t matter, as long as she’s got a lawyer to follow through with the court proceedings. I would think the post office or whoever serving the papers would try several attempts to deliver mail before they returned it, but it could have been a clerical error sending it to the wrong address for Shellie or her lawyer. (Thought I saw something about lawyer’s change of address).
Maybe I was letting my imagination wander a bit, thinking that a lightbulb (dim as it is) might have lit up in Shellie’s mind since stuff came out about Witness 9, GZ’s attempt to cheat with the ex-girlfriend some time ago, possible “Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde” behaviors he might be exhibiting, and she realized supporting her husband was not going to be worth sinking the rest of her life. Regardless, it probably isn’t easy living with him now either, whether she supports him or not. Thank goodness they never had kids.
Mitt Romney in Sanford…At least 47% of the population there are not going to appreciate it.
I discovered something amiss in Chris Serino’s police report. I was looking over it again to check details in response a post on Leatherman wondering how Serino came to the conclusion that ‘the guy who was screaming survived’ as he told ‘Teacher’W18.
Someone had to tell Serino GZ was the screamer as he couldn’t have heard it from Zimmerman himself by the time he talked to W18. But who?
Serino spoke to 3 witnesses that evening: JonFlashlightW13, TeacherW18, and JohnW6, in that order. So he didn’t get it from John, and it’s unlikely JonFlashlight would have said anything about the screams. But before he spoke to any witnesses, Serino reports “Officer Ayala briefed me as to the known circumstances.” So it could seem Ayala was the source. Interestingly, the only witness Ayala interviewed that evening was JohnW6. So it could have gone from John to Ayala to Serino, who then relayed it to the Teacher.
Which would take us back to the question of how JohnW6′s account of the struggle went from the description of “two guys wrestling” he gave to the 911 operator to the MMA pound-down version that begins with his statement to Ayala. I see only three possibilities;
1. He simply described it poorly in the moment of the 911 call, and was able to be more accurate when talking to the police. (I doubt it.)
2. Before the police began interviews, he had conversations with his neighbors to the north, JenW11 and jeremyW20. At this time they decided for some reason to cover up what they had seen, and present the police would false or incomplete accounts that would help clear George Zimmerman. (Perhaps they knew and liked Zimmerman, and just could not conceive of him committing murder, or perhaps they were worried about the Homeowners Association being sued.)
3. Ayala may have discovered that John was impressionable and eager to please, and fed him leading questions to get John’s statement to fit what he (Ayala) had already concluded had happened.
Now, if it’s #3 — if John actually got his story from Ayala rather than vice versa, then where did Ayala get it? Again, not from Zimmerman directly, since the other witnesses say GZ did not give any sort of detailed account of events before he was taken to SPD.
So here’s where the ‘issue’ I just noticed in Serino’s report comes in. He says that after getting briefed by Ayala, he “then interviewed Officer T. Smith, who was the first officer on scene.”. So perhaps Smith is the source of the version of events given to Serino. Only one problem. Smith wasn’t at the crime scene when Serino got there..
Smith escorted Zimmerman to the SPD, and Serino affirms that Zimmerman had already been taken from the scene when he (Serino) arrived.
So either Serino is BSing about when he spoke to Smith, or Serino DID interview Smith at that point, but via phone or police radio. And where was Smith at that time? Observing Singleton’s interrogation of George Zimmerman at SPD. Which you wouldn’t know from Smith’s original incident report since he neglected to mention it. Instead he wrote, “Once Zimmerman was cleared by the SFD, he was transported to the Sanford Police Department… Zimmerman was turned over to investigations and that was the end of my involvement in the case.” Why Ofc. Smith did you use the 3rd person, when YOU transported GZ to the SPD, and why did you say your involvement in the case ended when GZ was turned over to Singleton, when in fact you observed the whole interview and tended to Zimmerman’s needs for water etc.?
And why SPD and SA Corey, was the section of Smith’s report quoted above redacted in the full police report?
Smith did report that while Zimmerman was sitting in the back of his (Smith’s) cruiser, being attended to by the SFD, he overheard Zimmerman say, “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.” The paramedics, however, do not seem to recall Zimmerman saying this.
So, perhaps, in writing his report, Smith was projecting backward in time something he heard Zimmerman say to Singleton. Perhaps, if Serino interviewed Smith by phone or radio, Smith also relayed his “GZ said he was yelling for help” line at that point. And if Serino could be in voice contact with Smith, then Smith could also have been in voice contact with Ayala, telling Ayala the gist of Zimmerman’s version. Which Ayala then could have used to lead John into a confirmation.
So i see a motive for Smith to lie about overhearing the ‘yelling for help’ remark, as placing it earlier in the evening than it may have actually occured provides a justification for the police approaching the case the way they did. I see less of a motive for Serino to lie about speaking to Smith, since he had already been briefed by Ayala. It simply could be sloppy report writing that Serino neglects to mention the interview was not in person.
Serino’s report goes on to state: “I was also informed that statements made on scene to Officer T. Smith were corroborated by several witnesses, and led to the possibility of the shooting having been in self-defense.” Serino does not say who informed him of such, what GZ had allegedly aid to Smith on scene, what elements of GZ’s statements were corroborated, and what ‘several’ means. Again, something is amiss here. Either Serino is not being truthful about what he was told, or whoever ‘informed’ him was not being truthful, since the only corroboration of ‘GZ was yelling for help’ came from JohnW6, not ‘several’ witnesses.
I suppose it’s possible a couple beat cops (Smith and Ayala) cooked up some supporting BS to help out the Neighborhood Watch guy Smith had dealt with on a couple occasions before. But Bill Lee and Norm Wolfinger arrived at the crime scene not long after Serino AFAIK, and may have been influencing the ‘investigation’ as well.
These are all great questions/comments. I have been wondering the same things. I will add another thing I want explained… Why did they decide the witnesses who did not corroborate GZ’s story were “not credible?”
I wrote on the leatherman law blog that I felt it may have gone from GZ telling smith during the ride to the station house that he, George had told the EMTs he was calling for help but no one came – possibly a false narrative – but we can’t really know – since Smith put it in his report as such eventually. SMith may have told Singleton this verbally in person at the station, and then singleton told Serino via phone shortly after.
But that is just one way. I doubt we’ll ever know the full story.
What’s worth noting, like you said is that GZ CLAIMS he told EMTs, yet the EMTs don’t recall that George was the one who called for help.
And, in the end we have the FBI back-stopping the issue with their expert opinion that the audio sample is too poor to determine the person shouting. So wherever this goose chase leads it all comes back to an issue that won’t be a final determining factor for jurors, IMO.
I’VE ALREADY VOTED, PLEASE MAKE THE ROBOCALLS STOP!!!!!!!
LOL! I just got back from voting. I definitely am looking forward to no more election/voting calls. I was still getting them late last night and early this morning!!
congratulations USA. I think the rest of the world just squealed a collective THAAAANK YOOOOUU. Hope all of you are safe after Sandy.
She is so cute bless her heart, thank God the election is over and she can rest easy now
: ^ )
Thought you guys would find this interesting…..
@Loree, are you “blushedbrown” on Leatherman’s blog? If not, can you relay this to her over there? She requested key landmarks be filmed in the new walkthrough that Dave is going to make on TM’s route. Couple of things, of course there are at least two alternative routes, one by the cut-through, and one by the front gate. At the front gate, I’d like a close-up of the keypad for both the car and pedestrians to get in. The reason is that it might be possible for someone to see what kind of system it is and if it digitally records time of entry. Also, since many here have thought that GZ turned his truck around and parked on TTL looking back at the mailshed, that point of view might be useful. Finally, and I don’t know if this is at all possible for him to do, but a video at night (it gets dark around dinnertime now) might actually be more useful as a “re-enactment” for such things as the lighting conditions on that route. How bright is the lighting at the mail shed, under street lights, at the T, etc?
Oh, and if he can scare up a 200 pound half white half hispanic guy and a 17 year old 150 pound black teenager and have them wrestle around on the ground, that would be great too…..
I started following the “living room” a long time ago and always used Loree,
I kind of got nicknamed BlushBrown aka Brown on Leatherman. So yes I am one and the same.
Ok keypad good point. Night time another good point because this happened at night. Ok I am going to save this post in my Video Idea file and we as a team will get some specifics down so we can all get the most of this video. Thank you so much for your suggestions.
Oh, and if he can scare up a 200 pound half white half hispanic guy and a 17 year old 150 pound black teenager and have them wrestle around on the ground, that would be great too…..
that will probably be part two to this video!!!!!
Meanwhile, the treepers are doing an ultra-sophisticated “re-enactment” of their own by walking/jogging for 2 minutes to see how far they get to argue that TM had time to walk home and back up to the T to confront GZ. Of course they don’t say why GZ was hanging around at the top of the T for all of those 2 minutes. I guess TM was so lightning fast, he actually ran around the block 10 times in that amount of time, while the 2mph wind blowing on poor ol’ sluggish George kept him from making it back to his truck from RVC in 2 minutes. And TM was so fast, GZ didn’t see him coming out of nowhere even with wearing light-colored pants and white reflective shoes.
Really, I really try and stay with those sites. I didn’t know they were working on a video like that. I agree with your points. I just don’t understand them. With all the evidence to date, and all the discovery that is out there, they refuse to see the truth. It’s just beyond me. Anyways, I put your suggestion down. I will keeping checking in. I think Whonoze has a possible request coming. I don’t know if he can, but we are trying to see if those sprinkler heads might be the source of GZ so called injuries. Patricia @ Leathermans has said she can get a sprinkler head and send them to Whonoze or Amsterdam to take pictures and upload them so we can see what they look like up close. I ask her if she has the know she can just get the sprinkler shipped to her. I don’t have the know how to do this, that is why Whonoze or Amsterdam was suggested. I am awaitng her reply to this.
@Loree, they’re not working on a video, that’s why I said it was “unsophistocated re-enactment”, they were just talking about walking and jogging to figure out how far they could go in 2 minutes, and then discuss it on the site. It’s no comparison to what you’re doing with Dave.
When you say “sprinkler heads”, don’t you mean sprinkler box covers/utility covers? There weren’t actually sprinkler heads jutting out out of the ground, right? Whatever it is, it would be good to have a close up.
Not enough coffee yet. : ^ )
To the sprinkler head, yes, I believe they jut out. Patricia can order one of those sprinkler heads. I don’t think she can get her hands on the cover. But we would love a close up of at least the sprinkler head and the doggie sign.
Going to drink more coffee
Interesting, I thought about why would GZ who stated he is in fear leave his car and walk…not knowing where TM was. One other thing I would like to ask..does anyone have a copy or anything from the EMT who treated GZ at the scene that night, not the medical report from the next day. I am especially looking for something on Blood Presure, Heart rate, Pulse. I am doing a little research.
@John, I’m sure the EMT report is somewhere in the document dumps but just what I could find for now is in this article written by Leatherman.
page 182 and 183 of discovery dump one
Click to access Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-FULL-case-report-documents.pdf
hope this helps
The more we learn about George Zimmerman, the more I suspect he suffers from some sort of personality disorder, probably what the shrinks call Borderline Personality Disorder. The facts of the case just can’t be explained satisfactorily by positing a more or less ‘normal’ person cop wanna-be with racial biases etc. GZ has been revealed to be a fabulator of unusual scope and frequency, and not just about the incidents of Feb 26. (More simply, he spouts untruths constantly.)
And, lest we forget, he was given and passed a ‘stress test.’ Such tests are not reliable enough to be admissible in court, but Police wouldn’t use them at all if they weren’t at least somewhat predictive. And AFAIK, they don’t so much test whether someone is telling the truth so much as measure the neurological responses that would reveal the stress a ‘normal’ person feels when lying, which is stressful in part because it deviates from their normal behavior. People with BPD don’t have normal behavior to begin with. Perhaps untruths are so routine to them they don’t even register a blip on the meter.
People have commented on GZ’s sluggishness and weight gain in recent appearances (I have not seen these myself…) and wondered if psych meds are the cause. The meds GZ was taking (Adderal and Temazepam) wouldn’t cause weight gain, and wouldn’t really make him sluggish. Temazepam would make him tired if he took a good dose right before appearing in court say, but that’s unlikely to cause a generalized sluggish appearance. Weight gain is a side-effect of most anti-psychotic meds (which are used for all sorts of disorders short of true psychosis): such as Seroquel and Zyprexa. Sluggishness can also result from some of these (Seroquel especially) but is more common with anti-convulsants (often used as ‘mood stabilizers’) such as Tegretol, Topomax, Trileptal and Depakote. Of these, only Depakote is known for weight gain. So if GZ is on some new med, I’d guess it’s Seroquel or Depakote. I’ve taken both, and they’re both nasty, Depakote especially.
And this question pops into my mind: Could a (potentially legit also) pysch me dprescription be part of a defense strategy? One of the side-effects of Depakote (or other anti-convulsants) is that it messes with your memory and cognitive processes. If GZ were to testify, it would be to his advantage to appear _genuinely_ forgetful and dopey. It might mean the difference that could move a jury off from Murder 2 to a lesser included count. Just some wild speculation on my part, but hey, in this case, it seems anything is possible.
You have gone in quite detail of exactly what I was thinking when I first saw him dopey like that in court, and the folding and refolding of the paper. I said to myself this is not good. He appears to be more medicated then ever. It seems to me that the defense is trying a strategy of some psych disorder. Now I know there are people who have legit diseases or disorders. But he is not the same as before. I wondered also as you do if his disorder was not just a ADD.
Totally agree in this case anything is possible.
Here is a video that LLMPapa posted about his odd behavior.
It also gives you a look of how much weight gain. If I find a similar short video of how the camara stayed on him in the last hearing will post for you.
Here is another one.
Hmm don’t know what happened above but the name of video is Potted Palm
you can check out LLMPapa’s channel on youtube.
I think narcissistic personality disorder fits GZ to a T (no pun intended).
Symptoms of this disorder include (I got this from wikipedia, but the source is the DSM-IV):
** Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation (we haven’t seen anger from GZ, but could be his meds keeping him in check. Don’t know what he’s like on a personal basis).
** Taking advantage of others to reach their own goals (e.g., GZ belitting his co-worker at CarMax to be the “life of the office”.)
** Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents (e.g., claiming he graduated and having a party to celebrate it even though he hadn’t)
** Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance (e.g., everything related to his being a wannabe cop and a wannabe judge)
** Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others (e.g., just listen to the jailhouse calls and Shellie’s constant effort to massage his ego)
** Becoming jealous easily (e.g., stalking his ex-fiance)
** Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others (e.g., just listen to his “apologies” to the Martin family)
** Being obsessed with oneself (e.g., ask his whole family, they probably have plenty of examples)
** Pursuing mainly selfish goals (e.g., got his whole family in trouble including getting his wife charged with perjury in lying for him about the bond money).
** Trouble keeping healthy relationships (his “girlfriends” as a kid and teenager were cousin(s) he molested, and according to Osterman, has few close friends).
** Becoming easily hurt and rejected (e.g., ask his ex-fiance about that).
** Setting goals that are unrealistic (e.g., thinks he can go to law school and become a judge even given his poor school performance).
** Wanting “the best” of everything (e.g., despite not having a college degree and money problems, he drives nice car, lives in gated community, probably thinks he’s upper class.)
** Appearing unemotional (e.g., didn’t even break a sweat after the shooting, gave calm interviews after, appearing stone-faced in hearings).
Fortunately, according to this acticle below, it is rarely if ever used as an effective defense, and may be only offered in the sentencing phase to help reduce the sentence, but judges are generally not sympathetic even then. Of course, not everything who has this disorder is a murderer, and people with it are not “insane”. They know right from wrong, their problem is that THEY NEVER THINK THEY”RE WRONG.
Whonoze I strenuously disagree. George…Borderline Personality Disorder??? No he is just garden variety Psychopath. His vitals were normal at the crime scene after shooting someone DEAD!! VST is a friggin joke..if his vitals were normal within minutes of shooting someone DEAD then his nasty monotonous voice is more indicative he is a Psychopath.
Temazepam is a sleeping pill (RESTORIL) so one can logically assume he did not take a sleeping pill before going to court.
As for his weight gain…..why all the guessing? Who gives a shit how he gained weight he was always fat just so happens on 2-13-12 a PA gave baby huey some adderall and I am guessing this was the 1st time he got legal SPEED!! May he rot in hell , stop giving him superstar status.
Another thing Whonoze are you in charge of coming up with a defense for GZ? IF he takes the stand? Your theory fails here is why…George had no toxicology tests done after the murder. We can only go on what he was prescribed to him at the time of said murder. If in an alternate universe you can put him on the stand where he acts goofy…think now think your claim is he was mentally defective. How the hell did he have a CCW????? He ain’t gonna overcome his own piss ant statements. He is fat has been most of his life but we have very few pics to go on. Are you trying to say his defense is insanity or diminished capacity. He loses either way.
@sdunn5, sorry to butt in, but I don’t think Whonoze is “claiming” anything, just speculating on what might be a possible defense. That’s what he and the “elves” here like to do at times. It’s simply a thoughtful exercise on what options or angle the defense might have.
You are right, any meds prescribed after the shooting is not relevant, only those he was taking on the night of the shooting. However, as I mentioned above, a “diagnosis” of any type of personality disorder, even if he was given one before is not a successful legal defense. You brought up the question of how GZ had a CCW permit, and that actually should be the focus. I am not sure how thorough each state’s background check system is, but what would bar him from getting the permit is having been INVOLUNTARILY committed to a mental hospital. And he would have to have a note from a doctor clearing him of any mental illness I think for at least 5 years before he can get a permit. However, VOLUNTARY treatments at a mental hospital do not prohibit him from getting the permit. Now how does the state know if he’s ever been in a mental hospital? Each state might have it’s own database, but can they check other states? Or what about when he was under 18? Being committed as a minor is always technically “involuntary” since a guardian has to put you in there, I think. If they had to rely on him swearing that he was never committed to the looney bin, and he was, then that would invalidate his permit. For that purpose, knowing his mental history, would be very useful for the prosecution. I’m just afraid that his records at the Altamonte Family Practice would not have his full history. What if he had seen other doctors and if his psychiatric history goes back to when he was a teenager? It would be a real stretch to say that GZ was really “insane” on the night of the shooting, but it’s not a stretch to say that he may have an underlying mental condition that should have prohibited him from ever carrying a gun.
I do not find obsessing over medications and disorders GZ may or may not have as being a “thoughtful exercise of options and angles the defense might have”. I would argue facts not in evidence. “Elves” huh I call it as I see it. I do not consider that type of speculation pro Trayvon and family. I consider it sloppy legal research by a group not qualified to do it, and yes I see it as looking for a defense for the indefensible, which makes your motives suspect. That being said you cause more harm to a family torn apart. BTW why are you answering for whonoze? I wasn’t addressing you.
Wow, take it easy. I did try to apologize for butting in. I remember your comment in a previous thread here Sept 1, you said regarding being kicked off of Orlando Sentinel “I am free at last free at last!!!!!!!! It is a cesspool and I tried hard to get voted off the Zimmerman Slime Boat!!! ….. thank you for allowing me to rant with joy and glee.” You can rant here as you wish (as far as I know, NMLE doesn’t moderate comments), this is very much a pro Trayvon site, but people here are generally civil to each other. So it really just hurts to have our motives put in question. In fact, wasn’t it Trayvon’s family’s lawyer that wanted to get access to GZ’s full medical history, including his psychiatric records? It’s something they’re very interested in as well.
No one on this blog that I’m aware of has claimed to be a lawyer or legal expert, so it goes without saying that anything we say in that realm is speculation by amateurs. Occasionally, someone will offer bits of info based on their professional expertise, otherwise, it’s simply our humble opinions, some times backed up by evidence, other times not. Come on, it’s just a blog. I would daresay there are thousands of comments here and elsewhere (Leatherman’s, etc) where non-qualified amateurs have speculated on things. Besides, if someone were on the prosecution, I would imagine that they’d have to anticipate whatever the defense may come up with in order to counter it. Isn’t that what strategy is about? Anticipating what the defense might do, even if wrong, isn’t somehow becoming pro-GZ…in my very humble opinion.
Had to check Leatherman to see what this is about. I wrote about the videos in June on another forum. Somebody told me about BCC list and that Tchoupi and others were analyzing the videos too. Tchoupi thought some of my analysis was drug induced. That observation was wrong, but I kept an open mind and checked Tchoupi’s work, and had to admit that Tchoupi’s analysis was clearly superior to mine.
I’ve watched Trent’s video on this subject, but that has been a while. I appreciate everybody’s efforts on this subject, because I know from experience how difficult it was to analyze these videos when we had no context at all. I think we all came to the same ballpark begin time of the videos before we had the evidence. Trent made some of the same mistakes I had made. We had some ideas about what actually took place and then started interpreting what we saw based on what we thought had happened. Trust me, if you stare at those videos long enough, the picture you have in your head and the blurbs of lights you see in the video begin to morph.
I was very happy when I found bcclist, Tchoupi, Whonoze and others who were working on this. We used all the evidence that was out there, and there are still pieces of the puzzle we don’t agree about.
I am not sure on what basis you think you can make a judgement about the validity of the work we did here and the work done by Trent. It doesn’t seem to be based on your own analysis of the videos, but purely on the fact that you like Trent.
I believe a conviction of murder 2 is more likely if the videos are properly analyzed and presented to the jury in a clear way, because they proof beyond doubt that GZ was the agressor from the very start of their encounter. I find it offensive and puzzeling that you would accuse people who have put enormous amounts of time and effort into this case as being secret GZ supporters. I certainly hope the prosecution does not base its case on a set of believes, but instead on solid analysis of all the facts so that the defense can’t muddy the prosecution’s case by presenting evidence that can’t be explained away by the prosecution.
In case anybody was wondering what I meant by “elves”, that was taken from a comment sdunn5 made on Leatherman’s blog in reference to Whonoze and others here on bcclist who have been plugging away on the analysis of the security camera videos. I’m not sure of sdunn5’s intent with that label, but I did not mean to offend anyone here by it. In any case, I don’t mind being called an elf. For 5 seconds as a child, I almost believed in Santa (was skeptical even at 6 years old, always questioned the heck out of everything), and I LOVE Lord of the Rings.
WSI, pay no mind to sdunn5. I stopped after reading her/his comment to SJ (SJ, you still around?) in the May 14 post.
I just read that post, I don’t understand it, why it was written 2 months after SJ’s post, or the anger behind it. I mean, it’s one thing to rant about GZ, but why direct it at others on these forums who are clearly not his supporters? Did our talk of personality disorders touched a nerve?…..I’ll take your advice to pay no mind then…..
I posted 2 months after screaming jays post because I found bcclist seemed to be idle. The idea that you scrutinize my former postings and critique them goes along the same lines as postings by GZ supporters. People interested in justice are more thoughtful and understand the importance of debate. It appears you do not like your ideas challenged and resort to belittling comments instead. And yes I did say elves, my question is why do you think I was writing about you? Pretty self indulgent. I stand by my reaction to your postings as being non productive.
To clarify for everyone else, I didn’t think that I was being called an elf. I know the original comment was directed towards all of the others here who have put in hard work on those security tapes. I’m just here for the ride. I am realistic and humble enough to know that what I post isn’t directly useful for the case. The prosecutors have that great and mighty task of bringing justice.
I know I know QETNO, I said I wouldn’t pay any mind.
i love the move elf….SANTAAAAAAAAAA
WSI what you post is very much appreciated by all of us here. i’m not sure why you got jumped on for trying to clarify a comment for someone.
@Jo, thanks. I’m willing to have healthy debates on the issues, but it just irks me when someone accuses me or others on this site for being pro-GZ. They’ve got to know that’s the highest form of insult here. But I should have known better than to insert myself into it this time. Thank goodness my discussion about the DNA stuff is buried on another thread now. You’ll be happy I decided to let that sleeping dog lie, because frankly, no one understands it and somebody’s bound to take my analysis the wrong way.
So until a new dump comes along, I’ll just subject you with my random thoughts for now, like, would it have been possible to set up a “voice line-up” for DeeDee as an ear witness? Like the suspect line-up, instead of viewing them, she could have been asked to listen to various voices say “What’re you doing around here?” It’s too late now as the NEN call has been released and GZ gave a TV interview so she likely knows what his voice sounds like. If the cops had done their due diligence in the early days and didn’t worry so much about how to keep GZ out of jail, they could have contacted her, done the voice line-up. Oh she has plenty of other info to nail him with, I just thought it would have been the icing on the cake, should the defense try to go after her credibility.
WSI that would have been brilliant, too bad the phone and its records didn’t seem much of a priority to them.
That’s the problem with the closed comments on old threads, any discussion is kind of ended immediately, but i don’t see why any unfinished topics should be forgotten, they should be carried over to the new thread The DNA stuff was really interesting (the parts i could understand haha) so maybe continue the topic here if there is more to discuss.
oh and WSI what i meant to say about continuing the DNA topic is that i might not understand the nuts and bolts but still found it fascinating and was waiting for the outcome!!!!!! and i can see what you mean by it being taken the wrong way but that’s the good thing about this site, people want the truth, not just what fits their agenda, so even if the dna debate raises questions it is all a part of finding out what happened. It’s always good to see people using their skills and knowledge to contribute on this case in their own way……i don’t have any real skills so i just drink and cry a lot…..it works for me haha.
Thanks Jo, but no seriously, I think I’ve said enough about the DNA stuff. It’s made me feel kinda like the wacky internet lady with the 9 cats. The prosecution has already made their analysis, the defense just got the raw DNA electronic files. They deposed the techs who ran the tests, and they will conduct their own analysis of it. If there is really more to be said, it will come from them. I’m gonna park my butt here and wait. Luckily however, DNA is like 2% of this case. It won’t clear or incarcerate GZ. He left a hundred trails and a mountain of bread crumbs at the end of them. What will the jury believe happened in those couple of missing minutes? Was he ninja jumped by a thug? Or did he pursue, tried to detain and consciously made a decision to shoot an innocent teenager who was only standing his ground? Anyone with two marbles to rub together has to agree with the latter, because the pursuit started way before the NEN call started. I’m just hoping the jury pool isn’t as wacky as the state of Florida that they come from (apologies to anyone from Florida, but ya gotta admit there’s a lot of funny goings on down there).
I don’t think you are a wacky internet lady with cats. I found your post of Dna quite useful. Even though at some times I didn’t understand all of it, I got the gist of it . : ^ )
WSI was not jumped on, in fact WSI was responding to a post I left Whonoze. WSI why not stop butting in to responses not left for you. It would clear up the problem no?
i agree he might have a personality disorder but don’t think he’s BPD at all. Its a tricky condition but i think you’ll find the irrational behaviour etc etc is directed more towards loved ones in BPD because of a fear of being left etc and they can be quite normal to others. People with BPD don’t process emotions well so GZ’s heart rate would have blown the lie detecter up. They are the opposite of calm and collected. I’d say Georgey boy fits more the narcisist personality because like WSI explains it’s all about me me me. I’m right. I’m entitled. Everyone else is here to suit my purpose. I am better than all. Total and utter belief in oneself without wavering. Able to function perfectly in society and appear lovely to others except those in the cross-hairs. Would absolutely not feel guilty, would be convinced he is right, would believe his own lies etc etc.
Thanks jo. My thought was just that ‘abnormal’ behavior seems pretty normal for GZ, and that sounds to me like personality disorder, but I’m hardly one to differentiate between the varieties, since I’m just reading the Wikipedia descriptions. AFAIK, personality disorders do not ‘count’ toward any kind of ‘insanity’ defense, so if the MOM presented GZ as having such a disorder, that would only put him deeper into the fire.
But I do know something about the psych meds, and that certain prescriptions could affect GZ testimony, if he were to take the stand which is hardly a sure thing. As far as 2/26 goes, I’ve said repeatedly that the only drug I know of that could have contributed to the type of behavior he exhibited that night is good ol’ booze — lowered inhibitions, increased aggresion, poor judgement… If he’d been on Depakote at the time, he’d likely have fallen down in the street when he left his truck to pursue GZ, and then probably walked the wrong way having lost his sense of direction…
Anyway, lets not feed the troll…
@Whonoze, hope you don’t think I’m the troll. LOL! I really have no place to go, I’m too scared to comment on other sites, people so easily get their shorts bunched up, so here I stay. BTW, I commend your detailed, dignified and non-profanity-laced response to Trent on Leatherman’s regarding videos/timings.
yes booze and testosterone with a side serve of ego…i think he was high on all those things that night. Why he wasn’t tested is anyones guess. If i got pulled over for speeding i’d get breath tested, but shoot someone in florida and you can be on crack and no one would know. I’m surprised they haven’t blamed any prescription drugs for his bad judgement in lying to the court. It’s gonna get dirty that’s for sure, it’s everyone and everyone elses fault, anyone but George.
The state provided the defense with a 9th supplementary discovery, including a bunch of things O’Mara asked for such as digital copies of photos, raw DNA data files,. FDLE reports and FBI reports, TM’s phone records as downloaded by Brenton. There were also GZ’s medial records released by Judge Nelson and additional (minor) witnesses. So I guess we’ll see this stuff in a month or so. Some of it may be interesting, such as the phone records. We’ll get to see what was such a big deal with them, or rather not such a big deal with them.
Click to access State’s%209th%20Supplemental%20Discovery.pdf
Among other things worthy of discussion in this upcoming “document dump” it’s notable that notes from SPD investigator Singleton’s meeting with the FDLE was included. These were rather glaringly missing earlier it seems but not specifically cited by the defense as such, nor requested by name.
Serino’s debriefing notes were not extensive so I’m not sure I’m ex
Among other things worthy of discussion in this upcoming “document dump” it’s notable that notes from SPD investigator Singleton’s meeting with the FDLE was included. These were rather glaringly missing earlier it seems but not specifically cited by the defense as such, nor requested by name.
Serino’s debriefing notes were not extensive so I’m not sure I’m expecting a lot but I’ve been curious to hear /read what she thought outside of what we hear in the recorded interviews with GZ, where her behavior needs to be constrained. She personally caught George in several obvious lies. What must she think of him, and what would she care to pass on to the next round of investigators? Looms like we will finally get at least a clue about all that.
@Willis, good catch. I had also wanted to hear/read more from Singleton. The fact that the defense didn’t ask for her notes specifically and that the state is offering them now might mean that there’s more negative points in there against GZ. But then again, why wouldn’t they have included them in a previous dump? Who knows. All she could have written was, “Interviewed suspect. His story was inconsistent with the NEN call. Think he’s lying through his teeth.” That much was obvious from the recorded interview that was already released.
“People love to speculate.” Whatever Singleton told the FDLE, it’s odd the prosecution held it back until now. She may have characterized the SPD investigation too well for comfort, and thus tempted the state’s attorney office to let it slip through the cracks. What I’m hinting at is that perhaps she was of the opinion that the SPD knew GZ was lying but couldn’t prove criminal charges because they felt they lacked a good eyewitness who saw the altercation begin and end. Or, perhaps she believes that it was George calling for help on the recording. We just don’t know.
or maybe they are holding some of the more incriminating stuff for as long as possible…don’t want to play their entire hand at the beginning. Maybe that’s wishful thinking on my part.
All the medical records, phone records and better copies of photos are for Defence only, and not for public release. Wonder if there’ll be a mistake again?
Anything the prosecution presents to the defense is public in Florida, unless the judge has a reason that can withstand the scrutiny of the state’s sunshine laws.
Various rulings have been made in Thai case regarding what will and will not be shared but I’m unsure what rulings regarding medical and phone records have been made.
In general it seems that a pattern has been established where the defense receives materials and is given thirty days to review and file objections / challenges to their eventual release. I dint anticipate any grounds by which the defense could object to Trayvon’s phone records being made public.
As for the medical records of GZ, yes there has already been a fight started. I’m not sure all the details or if the matter is fully settled yet, but my general understanding was that information about his injuries were to be shared with the prosecution but that older records, namely his psychiatric history was not going to be shared.
As for the victim, trayvons autopsy report was made available to the defense. And they requested more raw data and have been given it, pending review.
I haven t however followed this aspect of the case as closely as others, so keep in mind I’m not being precise here,
The media is a third party in the fight over materials to be made public and this far they have been winning a lot of what they fight for due to the sunshine laws.
If anyone van shed more light on all this, I’d appreciate it but my understanding is that in 30 days we will see all that’s on the current list unless the defense objects and the judge rules in their favor, after the prosecution and media are allowed opportunity to present a case against such a ruling.
Yes, the judge had already kept most of GZ’s records confidential and only released what was related to the night of the shooting.
Click to access State’s%209th%20Supplemental%20Discovery.pdf
Note that section C of the supplemental notice is the “Defendant’s statements detailed in Altamonte’s Family Practice medical records.” And section J is “Altamonte’s Family Practice medical records (defendent) (copies provided as part of Judge’s Order”. This tells me that they may have the handwritten notes of the PA detailing more of what GZ said about his injuries. That has got to be made public.
Regarding the cell phone records, I hadn’t heard that anyone publicly wanted them suppressed, although I imagine that the family would have wanted to be cautious with them. However, privacy laws must protect anything in there like his friends/family’s phone numbers etc., so anything like that should be redacted before being released.
I also don’t know why we shouldn’t get to see better quality photos either, such as of GZ sitting in the police car and the photos JonW13 took (except for TM’s body, of course, that would be protected).
Anywho, we’ll just have to wait and see for the defense’s review period to be over. What’s weird with this supplemental discovery notice is that there are sections A, B, C, J, and K. Whatever happened to D, E, F, G and H?
@Aussie, hey there! Was just wondering. Awhile back you had mentioned here that the flashlight found near TM’s body was determined not to be GZ’s flashlight. I think CSFC and QETNO as well as I wanted to know how that was determined and where you found the info. If you could let us know what more you know about that, or if you were somehow mistaken, it would also be helpful so we can put that question to rest. Thanks so much!
Yes!! I’m still wondering where this info came from!
Around the time I mentioned that, there was a fresh evidence dump, and that somewhere said it wasn’t GZ’s. Which I disputed at the time, being the only reason I mentioned it. Seeing as they never said who it does belong to, and how they’d have found out, and then the mystery of what light GZ told Serino he was bashing etc etc the whole thing didn’t sound right to me and still doesn’t.
As far as I’m concerned it IS GZ’s flashlight unless and until someone legally claims and AND explains what it was doing there.
So I’ll see if I can dig up where this wrong info came from.
Patricia has sent me this link regarding the sprinkler heads. It was a long return post comment that I can repost if you like. Basically she called the landscapers months ago and got the info of what systems were installed at the Retreat.
Here is the link
Hope this helps with what those damn things look like : ^ ))))
Thanks Loree, this was helpful. I’m just wondering though, those sprinklers look like “pop-ups” , so they wouldn’t have been up during the rain. We’d have to postulate that one of them was stuck partially in the up position, which is not uncommon.. It’s a good possibility for making that crescent shaped cut on his head.
Yes. Next time I go to Home Depot she said to check out the sprinkler heads and touch with my hands just to get a feel of how sharp and hard those things are. She says she’s been a grower for 25 years and knows those things are tough little buggers. They have to be able to withstand lawnmowers, rain etc.
: ^ )
@Loree, it’s ok. I’m learning to embrace the inner cat lady in me. Give me charts and squiggly lines and I’m happy, but it took me this long to understand those darn sprinklers. Awhile back, I actually thought that the sprinkler heads were housed in those covered boxes, but then I realized that only the valves are in there! Apparently, the sprinkler heads are usually placed just a few inches away from a driveway or sidewalk. It makes total sense now that JonW6 could have seen GZ/TM NEAR the concrete but in fact GZ’s head just hit the sprinkler a few inches away. And they don’t necessarily have to be in the “up” position for someone to hit their head on one…..
As someone had already suggested, it would be helpful for Marinade Dave to get a close up on those sprinklers in the next video. It’s very curious that with those hundreds of photos entered into evidence by Sanford and FDLE, that none of them thought too zoom in on a sprinkler head, or even on the edge of the sidewalk for that matter where GZ claimed to have gotten his head bashed.
signed, cat lady 🙂
Dear Lovely Cat Lady,
Apparently, the sprinkler heads are usually placed just a few inches away from a driveway or sidewalk. It makes total sense now that JonW6 could have seen GZ/TM NEAR the concrete but in fact GZ’s head just hit the sprinkler a few inches away. And they don’t necessarily have to be in the “up” position for someone to hit their head on one…..
My request video titled “Trayvon’s Last Walk” (unless Marinade Dave comes up with something better), has a request that a shot of the a possible sprinkler head and the utility cover be filmed at the death scene along with the doggie post sign or whatever you want to call it. Whonoze requested something and I can’t for the life of me find the post, that he wanted to include in the video that was a plausible route for TM also. Something about the back entrance. If he’s around, if he can give me a clue of what it was again, I will forward it to Mr. Knechel.
I wonder if the dark little blob in the upper right of this vid at the 1:32 mark is a sprinkler head. It’s about a foot from the sidewalk. Could just be a rock…..
@Loree, BTW love ya but remind me never to take a boat ride with ya…… (reference to commentary on Leatherman’s latest post re: shipwreck and cannabalism).
THAT MADE ME LAUGH SO HARD. I love ya too.
Will comment on other part, but give me aminute still laughing
Ok I watched it look like a rock maybe… not sure. can’t concentrate now still laughing
Fourth paragraph in this story, near the end, says it is “believed to belong to a witness” but does not say why or who believes it ( I don’t). There was ore to this effect in or near the evidence dump thy mention, I’ll see if I can find that as well.
May be no more than the flashlight being entered in the original evidence without a definite owner.
Thanks so much aussie!!!! That had been such a mystery. This does seem to be the only place that says the flashlight belonged to a witness. It’s not the first time the news has been wrong. Or as you say that it was somebody else’s flashlight that did not make it into evidence. It was curious that no trace of DNA was found on it at all. I mean not just that the DNA was unidentifiable. I looked at the raw data on it, and the signal was flat, with nothing above background. Almost like someone wiped it clean or it had been so long since somebody touched it. GZ banged the heck out of his flashlight, his greasy paws were all over it.
I may be imagining things, but listen to the very very very end of JonW13’s 17-min interview with FDLE on March 20. At 16:49, the interviewer says “Ok, the time is approximately 3:21 and that concludes this interview”. Then you can hear Jon say “Let me get that _________ , oh wait.” And the recording ends. Aussie, QETNO, anyone? Can you make out what he says there?
I dont know what he said but he did turn over his IPhone photos from his laptop around that time to the SPD. Maybe he’s speaking about that?
@Aussie and Willis, thanks guys. I thought he might have said “flash light”, as if he just thought of something about his own flashlight (like he just thought of getting those photos). I thought, oh maybe there was a switcheroo at the crime scene and explains why Serino could get the flashlight to come one when GZ said his was dead…… But I think I was hallucinating since he’s known in my head as “Jon flashlight”. Ah, my wild imagination …. Glad you guys are here to keep me in check.
Thanks for the link! I’m very curious to know where the author got that information. I don’t remember seeing anything in any of the evidence dumps about the flashlight being anyone else’s, and George stated to BDLR at the original bond hearing that he had two flashlights on him that night.
I do agree with WSI that it is a bit weird that the flashlight did not indicate the presence of blood.
Looking forward to any additional info/clarification on this matter. Until then, I will just assume that it is indeed George’s.
I think that reporter made up that bit.
Listening to JonW13, he says he SAW a tactical flashlight near the body (and later took a photo of it) when he was first witness on the scene. So if if belonged to anyone other than GZ, that person must have just tossed it out there.
(Or, like the phone, it belongs to a little girl who happened to lose it just where someone was going to get shot any minute).
The “let me get that…….” seems to be the business card the interviewer offered….. the deal was Jon would email the images to the address on the card and said he’d do it “right now”. There are computer/CD sounds going on while he says this (as well as a jug being filled in the background). The “let me get” is clearly a reference to something present there where they’re talking.
And maybe GZ DID wipe the flashlight. The gun looks like he may have tried to wipe it, too. While trying to work out the script for the story.
The light looks useful for potentially claiming it to be Trayvon’s. It ALSO may be what caused the back of head wounds, after the shot, so would definitely need to be wiped clean of any GZ head-blood.
Naw Gz doesn’t have the brain power for quickly thinking of cleaning the flashlight, but a LE officer like Osterman might of……………
i still can’t make a new post, so i’ll post here. I know this has been asked before (by me i think) but just want something clarified. The woman that called the police hysterically to say she was scared of GZ and his family is not the ex girlfriend is she? Did they follow up with her and if so have her interviews been released? Sorry for the basic question because i should know this but i’m not as familiar with the details as most of you guys, i should have written it all down but i usually just go by memory (which is failing me). thanks.
The woman who called the police on 2/28 is not the ex. That woman is the cousin of GZ. The cousin is W9. AFAIK, the ex was only interviewed once, and that was for the investigation into GZ and if what happened on 2/26 could have been a hate crime.
OT – Jo, how is your nephew doing? I hope is making progress!
thanks QETNO, i just looked at Loree’s link and can’t believe i forgot all about that bombshell!!!
my nephew is doing ok, he is home but needs daily care and it’s getting him down, he still might lose the foot but they are still trying everything they can to save it. Thankfully our health care system means it’s affordable (as in he hasn’t had to pay a cent). Thank you for asking it’s really sweet of you to remember.
OMG i can’t believe i forgot about this….of course i remember now, i think this case makes me drink too much and i’m losing brain cells!!
i went from coronas to tequilla shots lol
!!!!! Check out this footage of the T at night!!!!! There’s a view looking across the top of the T, looking down South at the T and even a view I think while on the other side of RVC. (Although the camera pans the wrong way, looking North instead of South towards the rear entrance). Of note, HOA lady/Jeremy’s house looks awfully bright and lit up in front. Seeing this now, I wonder if their lit-up house could account for Snow Mama’s head (for those who don’t know, that’s in reference to some lights that look like a snow man with cleavage in the poolside security video).
Thanks for the link. As I’ve said previously, it was very dark back there. Before looking at the video a second time, ask yourself what color the various cars shown were, or if you think you could tell the color of someones clothing accurately in that poor lighting. Several eyewitnesses were quite close but seemed unsure about clothing worn by the two figures struggling on the ground.
As for the snow m’am, this video reinforces my opinion that yes, the residence of W11 / Jeremy etc is the source if the torso of the three stacked light blobs.
Hey Willis, glad to be of service. Actually, in looking at the clip again, there’s at least two shots of Jeremy’s house. Earlier in the video at about 0:35, it looks really lit up but what is the source of the light on the house? The whole front is lit up then. Almost like the truck had it’s lights on as well or there was lighting provided from behind from the camera. See the shadow of the guy walking. However, the house is not so bright in the shot at 1:53. They could have shut off some lights on the house, but the extra light source (from the news crew?) is also gone then. Dunno…. need to go back and look at Snowmama’s cleavage again…
Yes, it’s very dark there and a wonder that anyone could make out distinct colors but I guess they could see light versus dark, and movement.
That vid was made with a high-sensitivity camera that exaggerates the brightness of lights. While the front of 1211 TTL looks lit up like a Xmas tree, note that it’s not really illuminating the nearby area much, or casting much of a shadow.
Light intensity falls off very quickly. There is essentially NO way the lights on 1211 or 1221 could be as bright as the Snowmama at that distance.
If you want to check light level yourself, stand with your back to the light source, and hold up the palm of your hand so the light hits it squarely. How bright your hand is shows you the illumination power of the light. Now walk away from the light, checking your hand as you go. If you do this at night with any common porch light / garage light fixture (such as the photos show on the RTL homes) you won’t have to go very far. The most anyone would put in those fixtures is a 100 watt ‘bulb’. Anything brighter is a fire hazard. More likely, the homeowner would use a 75W or 60W. My guess is that to get the Snowmama effect from that distance you’d need a 500-1000 watt spotlight.
So I think we’re seeing reflections of lights that are a lot closer (like the PARs around the pool) and/or a lot brighter (like the street lights),
Thanks Whonoze, I don’t know anything about cameras, but could the poolside camera also be a high-sensitivity camera? It’s grainy but isn’t it meant to pick up images at night as well? So snowmama may not be from that house, but the constant flare on the poolside vid (even though we don’t know where it comes from) makes it seem like the camera exaggerates the brightness of lights too. Also what are “PARs”? Thanks again.
The pool camera is relatively sensitive, but not like the sort of ‘night vision’ cam used in that news story. A PAR is a kind of ‘light bulb’ designed as a sort of self-contained spotlight – typically used on household exteriors, a sort of conical shape with the light coming out of the wide end and the socket at the narrow end. (To a professional, a ‘bulb’ is called a lamp, and what regular folks call a ‘lamp’ is called a fixture.) PARs send all their light in one general direction instead of equally around the globe. The lights on the garages on TTL are fixtures with regular globe lamps.
The big constant flare toward the left side of the pool video is definitely a light mounted on the same wall as the camera, but down a ways. It’s probably a PAR. The reason it looks so bright and blows out all detail over the left of the frame is because it’s so close to the camera.
Another issue with security cameras is the fact they have relatively low resolution imagers coupled with wide angle lenses, meaning they are incapable of recording any detail at any distance. E.g. when GZ passed right under the security cam in the SPD garage it was incapable of recording an accurate picture of the wounds on the back of his head. It’s entirely possible that Trayvon walked through the view of the Pool camera after he left the mailbox area, but the camera just couldn’t discern him from the background at that distance.
Thanks for the clarification Whonoze. On another note, I think clips from this video are useful to imagine what happened after the NEN call ended. Would GZ have gone down the very dark dogwalk? Maybe, but he told the dispatcher TM was heading towards the back entrance. When he said, you know what? Have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? Seems more logical he decided at that point to go down RVC where there was considerably more light and to keep an eye on the back entrance. Sure he was telling the truth when he said he was walking back to his truck because if he kept walking around the block or around the building, he’d eventually come back round to his truck, just took the scenic route that’s all.
Whonoze I have asked questions of you here and on leatherman, yet you seem to feel you do not need to answer them thus sending in your clowns to do the dirty work. Here is my question for the last time
YOU CLAIM IT IS TCHOUPI’S CHART, yet the last time accessed by said person was 6-12, but unlike that question can you explain to me how you and your diligent workers i.e. screaming jay, lonnie starr etc have integrated links to these clubhouse videos? I clicked my friend and it took me to a vid by diwataman, under that uploaded title was gzlegalcase.com/donate. A known conservative treehouse user name anything at all in your defense (not defence as you like to spell it) come on now!!
@Loree, I had been curious about the front gate, and the whole “had to hit the code” thing. That was part of the reason why I suggested for Dave’s videographer to zoom in on the keypad, if there was one. However, in this shot of the pedestrian gate, it doesn’t look like there’s a keypad, just some door knob looking thing (zoom in on the picture). Don’t know if or how it locks. Dave’s video source might know.
I am happy to report that Dave is in negotiations with videographer. He also said per my inital list must see items were doable. The keypad did make the initial list. I am still trying to find that post by Whonoze regarding specifics about back entrance tha I want to include. I hate like hell to read every thread, there are so many @ Leathermans. It does keep the conversation moving though.
Anyway I’m rambling trying to get done so I can watch a program.
I did look at your link. I found that you can google, ” pictures of front gate @ RaTL and a couple pictures pop up but no close up of keypad.
I am currently waiting on another email from Dave so we can mind meld sort of speak.
PS Whonoze give me a shout pleasssssee.
Last time I butted in to a question for Whonoze, all hell broke loose. I apologize a thousand times to him and all here for that. I had no idea what it would stir up. But I think this would be ok. Just trying to be helpful. Whonoze’s suggestions for the vid are in comments to this posting on November 8, 2012 at 2:11 pm
Duh, I feel like an idiot, right where we were talking. I need to slow down, doing too much.
Have a good night.
PS Don’t know what’s going on there with them two, but Whonoze got it.
100% UNNECESSARY to apologize, WSI. You didn’t do anything wrong. We all respond to each other…this is a blog…that’s kind of the point of a blog with open comments, lmao. 🙂 See…you responded to Loree, and I’m responding to you, and hell, someone that is not you might respond to me… *gasp* THE HORROR!
And I am responding to you. OH NOOOOOOO.
bahahaha, whiney little fucker..
Here I go again, probably gonna be accused of pro-zimmy like behavior for this, but to help you all maybe understand where it came from, see 6th comment from the bottom. It’s a sad story, but shouldn’t be an excuse to take it out on others.
Check out post. weird very weird
oh a former Bcclister. If it is who i think it is it saddens me that she is so angry at us here because we were always on the same side.
saved it and posted it to my notepad thanks again
My wish list is short:
1. While driving on RVC and passing in front of the clubhouse, is there an angle where someone standing inside the mail shed would be visible?
Reason: Tchoupi’s analysis shows that a vehicle came down RVC in about the right time to be GZ in his truck. When I posited that this vehicle does not go out the front gate, but instead continues immediately over to TTL where a view of the mail shed was to be had. A GZ supporter opined that GZ had spotted TM before he got to the front gate and that’s why he didn’t go out.
(No matter that the vehicle, after gaining a good view of the mail box area, courses back to RVC for another view of the FT cut through, before turning around and going back to TTL and the mailboxes again. As you can see, if GZ could not see into the mail box area as he approached the front gate on his trip to the store, then he saw nothing that should have stopped him from going out.
Then, the only other reason he has for going around to TTL and the mailboxes is that he had notification and was on the hunt.
2. I’d like to see what method of entry the houses use, TM’s in particular, is it by key or key pad?
Are key pads there front and back of the houses?
.3. This has already been mentioned but I’ll mention it again, the various routes returning from 711.
Because, sometimes the shortest route is not the most preferred one. Sometimes longer routes are more pleasant/appealing/attractive, that one doesn’t mind the extra distance.
will copy post and pass it along.
IIRC, all the condos have keypad entry on door handles. I think it was mentioned in a ad for a house, will look for link in a minute.
IIRC, in Singleton interview, and I believe it was the first interview, before he got a chance to make up a story with Osterman about seeing TM first at the clubhouse or mailshed. They were discussing a map. Singleton asked him could you place a mark where you FIRST saw him. We can’t see what he’s doing obviously, so she indicates is that the front entrance. He says Yes Mam. In the reenactment the next day he says he saw him by 1460. He changed his story by the next day, IMO, because Osterman told him you idiot it looks like you was stalking the kid as soon as he came thru the gate. Why would a would be druggie, suspicious, robber, black male looking into all the houses come thru the front gate. Just saying. Anyways BRB
I know where the statment is regarding Singleton. Will post about keypads on house doors in a minute have to dig into files.
Click to access 12-3198_Appendix.pdf
Warning huge file
page 23 of 538
Any thoughts, on this….
Okay, now you’ve got me reading this disgusting story again, okay…
Page 42 —
Speaker 2: — when it moved onto the concrete, um, the guy in the black
shirt, or sweater, was on top of him, um and when I say, when I menat to
say MMA, it was more of just like he was, you know, over his leg par, like
he — I’m trying to thinkk of how to put this — if you, if you ever watch MMA,
the guy that’s on top is usually in control is what I, that’s what I meant, like,
he had controld at that point is what I meant, Um, as if I was on top of you
at that point I don’t know if I’m trying to hold you down, that’s what I was
saying it looked like, uh, you know, he had been hitting him from on top
but, you know, I can’t truly see how close, you know, they were to each
other, if he was hitting him or if he was trying to hold him down in that
position until the cops got there. So that’s what I mean in a, in a MMA
position, because it’s usually called like a mounted position or, or
something like that, but I’m not sure if that’s what it was, but he was on top
at that point.
Now note that although the witness says that GZ was on the bottom and the person on top (presumably Trayvon) was in control… He also says that the guy on the bottom appeared to be trying to get up, because he saw the guy raise his back.
From real Martial artist who have posted on this particular matter (and I’ve saved their article on my collection site [ http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b ] we learn that a mounted positio9n is not so easy to maintain without both training and skill. So, add that to the fact that GZ has his back raised, he’s hardly the helpless whimp he’s trying to make himself out to be.
This witness is testifying to a possible attempt to accomplish, what appears to him to be an effort to hold someone for the police!?! Who would you guess he believes was trying to hold whom for the police?
It has to be either the light skinned guy trying to get up off the ground, or the guy on top, in control and raining down blows.
It’s obvious that he’s trying to “push” a vision through his mangled testimony. He’s seen one thing and he’s trying to tell us something else happened. But he doesn’t want to tell us, he wants us to pick it up by implication. Unfortunately the truth peeks through because in truth the most remarkable things happen. Things that impress us so much that we can’t erase them. So, when we get confused, because the story we want to tell isn’t getting through, the truth pokes it’s head out the hole.
Truth: “Someone was trying to hold someone for the police!” The witness saw that? How could he see what could only be an interpretation? His interpretation of the scene he was watching!
Now lets look at this interpretation of the scene. To make the interpretation that someone is trying to hold someone for the police, the witness obviously needs more information about the scene he is viewing, than what he has told us.
Anyone want to guess, what kind of information this witness would need, to make that interpretation, between to total strangers found fighting in the night behind his house in the dark?
You find two strangers grappling in your back yard in the night! Exactly how do you arrive at the conclusion that one of them may be trying to hold the other for the police?
Now after reading the above go back and read the witness statement again and you can clearly see how he’s reversed the positions of the parties. Either that or you’ll have to believe that it’s the black guy on top whose trying to hold the white guy on the bottom for the police. Hint: the “raining down blows” is an added feature, obviously, from the flow of the narrative, no one was striking any blows. They just do not fit.
I think John, witness 6 is pushing a false narrative. If you listen to the dog lady, witness 19,
She has TM laying on the bottom when John says he is calling 911. She says he was moaning and groaning and saying helpme helpme helpme. She identifies the helps from the kid.
March 10, recording 14 min
Hmmm…… that would be a logically assumption on his part in retelling the story, because police did come. But still this makes me do a double take.
It would never be a logical assumption that anyone watching a strange event, having absolutely no knowledge of what was going on, or who the players were, could even think about having a perception of the actors intentions of remote anticipations. You’d have to be totally insane to say that you got the impression that one of two total strangers, fighting for reasons you knew not what, might be intending to hold the other for the police, and not either attacking or defending themselves.
Even if he knew that later, he would not include it in the description of the scene since everyone would know it would be out of place and unbelievable there. It’s like seeing a man standing on a street corner watching for the light to change, and saying that you witnessed him planning a trip to Miami while he waited. Even if you felt that way, why would you tell anyone? Unless you wanted people to think of you as strange.
JohnW6 was definitely an overzealous witness, exaggerating or overintepreting what he say in his original statements. He was trying to redeem himself in the latter interview. You can tell he had a hard time describing things, but I think his “until the police got there” was in reference to his saying “I’m going to call the cops”. That is, sort of an explanation of why TM didn’t just get up at that point. What John was trying to say was that at that point TM was in control (based on his still over-extended interpretation based on seeing TM on top) and didn’t get up because now a neighbor calling 911 so he’ll just trying to hold GZ until the cops got there.
Yes, the testimony is mangled, but the take away message is that when he first said “MMA style” but did not mean that he saw actual fists punching a face. He meant he saw someone on top of someone else for less than 10 seconds out of an alteraction that lasted at least a minute or two. Of course he does a bad job with replacing the words “MMA style” with “control”. In those 10 seconds, there was clear movement from a perpendicular to a parallel position with the sidewalk, so he actually testifies to the fact that GZ was not pinned down that he couldn’t move. GZ himself even said he was shimmying. Coupled with the fact that TM’s body ended up farther away from the sidewalk than when he was out there says that there was so much movement that TM couldn’t have been in that much “control”. So forget how he intreprets the scene, the info on what he saw actually goes against a self-defense.
Hey Lonnie!! Long time no see (or rather read)! I found this other picture, still fuzzy when zoomed in, but it doesn’t appear to have a keypad to the right of the pedestrian.
However, just above the “knob”, there’s a round hole. It may be where a keypad should have been if installed. This picture is a closeup looking through that hole I think.
Keypads come in all sizes, is why you have to go there and take close up pictures. A gated community about a mile west of me has a keypad of such dark plastic keys it blends with the rusted metal surrounding it, if you didn’t know where to look you wouldn’t know it was there.
Also it very well may be that things were falling into such disrepair at RATL that the keypad for the pedestrian gate had been removed for service and not replaced. There being so few pedestrians in the area it would hardly seem a priority.
I believe what we’re trying to do is, discover or eliminate possibilities. So if there’s a keypad and speaker at the gate, it’s possible TM would use it to have Chad open the door when he got home? Or did he know the code to get into the house? Ms Green or Mr. Martin would know. They would also know TM’s habits, like if he’d stay on the back porch a while talking on the phone or such.
DD only says that he got very close to the house when he discovered someone behind him again. Trouble is, it could have been Osterman behind him, then he ran north and GZ came out of a cut through as TM passed and replaced MO who then returned to his truck, heard the shot and lit out of there really quick, not wanting his vehicle to be found inside the gates.
I’m still not a believer of MO as an accomplice, but if the keypad were to just all of a sudden be removed for “repair” after the shooting or that the front gate camera was just “not working”, then somebody’s gotta find out if GZ had any other special friends in the neighborhood.
Looks to me like she’s standing in front of the key pad so it’s not visible, but it seems it would be right behind her. The gate opens outward to the left, so you’d want the keypad on the right, so you wouldn’t have to move away from the opening gate.
Here is the one and only response i shall give you, ever, about anything…
I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. I have no access to tchoupi’s page. I have placed nothing there. I know nothing about any changes made there.
GZ supporter Diwataman is like the flip-side of Axion-Amnesia. He has paid for access to the State’s discovery site, and in addition to posting videos expressing his own opinions, he also posts a certain amount of raw evidence he has obtained from the State, such as the security videos.
None of the other people who post on this blog are “my workers” or “elves” or any other demeaning term you might care to toss carelessly. I do not know them, or have any influence over them.
Virtually EVERY person looking into the Martin case, from Treepers to LLMPapa uses my time-stamped videos of the NEN call and 911 calls as a reference. But AFAIK the Zimmytards aren’t having fits and spouting conspiracy theories because they discover one of their own has utilized factual materials offered by a known Leatherman contributor. And they’re idiots, so what does that make you?
So keep your promise, crawl back under your bridge, shut the fuck up, and quit wasting our bandwidth.
oooooohhhh yeah, now i feel like a cigarette
Yep…. me too….
Ah there you are Whonoze when you are done ripping this one a new a-hoe. Could you please repost that very specific request about the back entrance. I don’t know which thread it was on @ Leatherman, so if you rememer I want to include it on the final wish list.
Ps No hurry, just when you can
If there is a wish list for a videographer who lives close to Sanford, can someone pass on a request for a daytime shot that aligns with the poolhouse camera as best as possible?
Regarding the recent local news video that shows night views near the cut thru path, I agree that the news crew used supplemental lights to illuminate the front lawn of Jeremy/w11s house as you can see the camera crews shadow on the lawn.
As for what causes the “snow mama” light pattern seen in the poorhouse cam, a good test shot would resolve that. If it’s not possible for the videographer to get inside the pool enclosure, a shot from just behind the camera thru the fence would be good enough if the alignment were the same.
A PAR light is called that for the parabolic reflector that focuses the beam of light, somewhat like an automobile headlamp might. There are “wide,” normal and narrow shapes made and classified but the
household name is a floodlamp.
Regarding what causes a sector of the pool cam image to be “blown out” or not it’s important to realize that the “latitude” of the camera’s sensor is likely fairly narrow. Video is almost never as sensitive as film at recording the range of light to dark areas as faithfully as the human eye. A camera set to favor the darkness would lose detail in bright areas quickly, possibly only four or dive f-stops away from the proper exposure, maybe even less.
Again however a test shot in the daylight would resolve the question. My best guess is still that the snowmama is made by three light sources: head – streetlamp near 2nd corner, torso/cleavage is the garage and or porch of w11’s house and that the legs/foot of the three blobs is a pool of light in the street under the street lamp. But believe me, that’s just a guess. I hope someday a test shot will resolve the question however of what exactly is the blind spot, etc.
If I were there I’d want to shoot a still photo panorama of try angle of view of the pool cam both at night and in the day, as well as shooting video of a car making various movements and u turns etc on TTL at night.
This is the pool camera view Willis is talking about. Security videos can be found at Axiom Amnesia. However, it requires you to download a particular video player. I used to have trouble viewing those videos. Therefore, I’ve included the Youtube link to the video. Yes that was posted by a treeper, but as Whonoze noted above. Who cares? We’re advertising anything or condoning his opinions, it’s raw video footage for all to use per their own purpose. If we weren’t allowed to post links to news stories for instance that had comments below them by treepers then for goodness sakes, I’d never be able to post a darn thing. I agree with Jo’s comment above. We are all on the same side, It is sad to see someone who seemed to get along well here and had contributions to make all of a sudden start this harrassment, demanding immediate answers, and dissing other contributors here. OK, nuf said. Let’s save bandwidth for better things, shall we?
Whoops, correction: “We’re NOT advertising anything or condoning his opinions….”
captured post into notebook
Got it Willis. Will pass it along.
; ^ )
At 1:22 in the night-time video you can see the “flare” of what I think is a street light on the other side of the street of RVC from where GZ claimed to have been standing banging his flashlight. It’s a bit to the north but it might still be in direct line of sight from the poolhouse video (find it on a Google map from above.). However, I don’t know if it’s too far away to cast that much light or would be cut off from the top of the poolhouse video (that is, it may be topographically above snow mama’s head). As the camera pans back (at 1:25 in the vid) looking back through the cut-through, it seems like that streetlight illuminates at least a third to a half of the sidewalk at the top of the T. @ you guys with a better eye for lighting, any thoughts?
Here are my visual illustrations regarding the light and shadow sources of the ABC7 news night video. Hope they help.
In general, I’m still slightly at odds with some of your conclusions, but we are all in this together, I think.
The ABC News van had its headlamps on for at least the first shot where the cameraperson walks the walk onto the cut thru path. Not sure if they are still on when the camera faces back to the west or not from RVC. What do you think? It depends on where they were parked, which I think was on the side of the road opposite where GZ claims he parked, and a little closer to the corner, too. Hard to tell for sure.
One thing that is easily noticed however is that any detail is lost in brightly lit areas like front porches. Looking down the cut thru to RVC there is a house front that is blown out and the streetlamp on RVC above it that are worth noticing. These are similar distances that the snow mama is from the pool cam.
I’m very excited that Lorlee hopes to get a msg to the videographer who shot a recent walk thru… I’d like to resolve some of these questions, mostly for curiosity’s sake. Let me know what anyone thinks about my illustrations’ conclusions.
The light sources in the west facing ABC7 news grabs are either the pool PAR flood lamps and the first TTL corner streetlamp, or else the mail kiosk and the streetlamp. I’m leaning towards the idea that it is the pool flood lamps we see there, and that the mail kiosk is behind the trees or else actually out of frame.
Thanks Willis, I’m not sure I made any conclusions, just guesses and pointing out things for discussion. It’s apparent now that the shot is misleading because of those additional camera crew lights, so it’s not really what GZ/TM saw that night. Yeah, seems like the news crew was parked across the street from Jeremy’s house so all that lighting there is artificial. Since it doesn’t seem like there’s extra lighting on the RVC side, then at least that shot would have been more “realistic”. When I said “As the camera pans back (at 1:25 in the vid) looking back through the cut-through, it seems like that streetlight illuminates at least a third to a half of the sidewalk at the top of the T.”, I was referring to guessing how much light the lamp from RVC was casting into the cut-through (top of the T). This is relevant to GZ’s claim that he didn’t want to walk back through without light (of course the idiot ran through there the first time supposedly with no light).
Oh wait, maybe there is a camera spotlight placed on RVC by the crew? Seems kinda low for a streetlamp. Arggghhh, this is useless!
Yeah, it’s difficult to make many judgements from this ABC7 news video I agree.
Then of course there is the fact that we have no idea if GZ ever went to RVC at all or not. But FT is right, it’s DARK at the T. Don’t forget it was rainy too.
I dont think there is supplemental lighting when the camera is on RVC. Lazy cameraman left the van on TTL I bet. He walked to the end of the sidewalk and took the shot, then walked back to the van.
Here is what I posted as requests for the videographer on Leatherman.
There are other things I would want someone with access to RATL to photograph.
1. As far as timing goes, it might be useful to have a visual illustration of Trayvon’s route as described by George Zimmerman, to show how long it would have taken for Trayvon to walk from Taaffe’s to the clubhouse, and from there to disappear down the dog-walk, re-emerge, come back to GZ truck, circle it, and then head back to the dog-walk again — all of which would take much more time than GZ describes or the NEN call establishes. But that could turned from tell into show.
2. I’d really like to know more about what the witnesses could or couldn’t have seen or heard, but you really can’t capture that with a video camera…
3. It would be extremely helpful to those of us working on the security videos to get both daylight shots of what’s in their field of view, and to definitively identify the light sources that show up in the pool video (which would not so much be a matter of taking pictures, but of eyeball reporting). The latter would require Dave to be there after dark, but as the sage once said “It gets late early these days.”
4. It might also be useful to have a traveling video of the path Zimmerman more likely took, rather than what he claims. That is, starting from that parking spot on TTL, but jogging – not walking – for the length of time GZ exerts himself on the NEN call. Ideally there would be two takes, a) where the camera turns down the dog-path sidewalk, and b) where the camera goes over to RTL and immediately turns South. I’m thinking (a) would show that had GZ followed TM down the sidewalk, he would have been well south of where he says he was. More importantly (b) would establish that GZ could have been trying to head off Trayvon at the back gate on foot, taking RTL South until he had a good view of the back gate, then slowing down as he realized Trayvon was NOT leaving by the gate. At that point, he would have resumed walking South more deliberately, looking for a sign of ‘the suspect’. I’m assuming that a video continuing in this way would show that by the end of the NEN call or moments thereafter, GZ could have appeared at the South end of the dog-walk. thus in the time between hanging up with Sean and the start of the confrontation, he could have re-encountered Trayvon in the vicinity of the Green’s back door, and pursued him North back up the sidewalk towards the site of the shooting.
So yeah, I’m as curious about the Snowmama as everyone else, not that it matters so much to the case, but just because it’s a mystery. And i don’t think any additional photo from a fixed point of view will answer the question. An actual person, looking around and moving around can tell where lights and reflections are coming from. On the other hand, even a daylight shot from near the security camera might not be able to match the position of the Snowmama with visible sources back on TTL due to the parallax involved (though an actual daylight image from the security cam would help, not that RATL is going to provide one.)
Folks, please don’t smoke on my account. it’s bad for your health and I ❤ you all.
; – )
Was there anything else you wanted, Loree?
I have no idea why you would feel a need to apologize to anyone for anything, especially to me. IIRC you were trying to be helpful and diplomatic.
If anyone needs to apologize, I do, for not being able to muster the concentration to work on that presentation of the security videos. As I think i noted before, i have a chronic anxiety disorder that's bad enough I had to leave my teaching career early, and I get blocks on following through with certain things that require certain kinds of detailed work. [On the the other hand, writing TL:DR blog posts is easy : – ) .] But prodding (as opposed to pressure) actually helps. So if folks keep bugging me gently about the vids, it'll help me get to them. I think when it's done we'll have something really worthwhile.
@ screamin' jay
Are you guys still checking in? Suffering from Zimmerman fatigue? Dealing with your own real everyday lives? [ How dare you… have real lives, I mean ; – ). ] Give us a quick holler so we know you're OK, and that some Treeper-Ninja or Leatherman-psycho hasn't imprisoned you in a basement somewhere…
Thank you Whonoze for your reply and thank you for caring about my health, but that post deserved a big inhale!
Got the post link from WSI, last night but will copy post again and save : ^ ) , then send to Knechel.
thanks again for responding.
And yeah were are those guys? How dare they not post comments! LOL
well i’m not actually a smoker, but that post was pretty satisfying
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yzNMmCQCiFo/TNxoADP6KDI/AAAAAAAAAOA/XENZeLQjpUk/s1600/the-after-sex-cigarette.jpg haha sorry, never google “after sex cigarette”…..just…..never
You are a wicked lady wicked I tell ya
State Attorney Angela Corey is having a news conference today at 11 a.m. in regards to a seven-month, multi-agency investigation.
Such a tease! (Talking about the reporter). Announcement not about the zimmerman case, but the “7-month multi-agency investigation” sure made it sound like it!
That was a tease…
regarding some identify theft ring
Had me going there for a minute lol
That was the intent, to capture the eyeballs available because of the GZ case. Looks like the media pro’s are swarming to Florida to make their bones while the iron is hot. lol
Simply horrible, today if one commits a crime, any crime, they get to have their picture plastered all over the internet, available to search engine for all time. That’s bad new, not to be able to apply for a job with any company that has a HR or IT department.
I wish the LEO’s would do some stings with safe deposit boxes. Those are easy prey for thieves and scam artists because, what most people put in such boxes, isn’t supposed to exist, if you get my drift. It’s like robbing a local drug pusher, he can’t go to the police. So, I can’t believe that there are not bank officers keeping extra keys and plundering safe deposit boxes of cash or valuables, after all, how would a complainer prove they were there? I cannot believe such a wonderful target would not be picked, while more riskier targets would be.
How’s this for prodding? At 7:08:52 in Whonoze’s video in progress (I think this is the link to the latest available), I see a light gray shadow appear in the east pool hall video by the mail kiosk (lower left quadrant). It kinda fills that dark space, unlike the smaller streaks that one sees as a car is going past. I don’t see a car going past at that time. Then at 7:09:10:18, we see what we think are GZ’s headlights show up. Is my imagination getting the better of me, or could the shadow at 7:08 52 be TM moving away from the mail area?
[video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidw4636.mp4" /]
I see the shadow, its so fast.
GZ goes REALLY slow by the mailboxes. The change at 7:08:52 isn’t a shadow, it’s lighter than the background. It’s the beam from GZ’s headlights, probably appearing larger than other streaks because it’s moving much slower relatively. At 7;09:10 there’s the bright spot that has to be direct light from GZ’s headlamps. Maybe he angled in a bit to get the lights to shine in that area? In any event, that thing you see at 7:08:52 is way bigger than a person would appear at that distance. There is one frame, well after the shooting as i recall, where you can see a person stick a head in the shot by the mailboxes. I can’t find it right now… in part because it’s not obvious because it’s not that big. It’s a wide angle lens so things appear dramatically smaller the farther they are from the camera.
I would guess Trayvon walked through the field of view of both the East Pool Hall camera and the East Pool camera, but that he was so far from the cameras and with so little light on him that the images simply could not discern him from the background. (And, no, CSI-type shows to the contrary, there’s no alchemical ‘enhancement’ that can make something out of nothing.)
Right, shadows are dark, and makes sense a person wouldn’t be that big. But still curious. We see GZ’s truck in the window of the clubhouse on RVC at 7:08:45, right? Then we see the light change at light change in the EPH vid at 7:08:52. If that’s his headlights approaching, then 7 seconds is reasonable to round the corner. But then that light change at 7:08:52 lasts for a frame or two, and it’s dark again until the actual bright headlight at 7:09:10. I would think that if it’s the headlights approaching slowly, then you’d be seeing a continuous if not increasingly brighter light. You said “Maybe he angled in a bit to get the lights to shine in that area?” So maybe he didn’t make a smooth hugging-the-curb right turn onto TTL from RVC as a normal car would do. If he instead moved his car to the middle of the intersection and then made a big wide angle right turn onto TTL, then for a brief second his headlights would be shining directly into the mail area. Then as he pulls up slowly and straightens out the beam, it can no longer be seen in the EPH vid. But it does take him 8 seconds or so to do this, which would have seemed very odd and creepy behavior to TM.
Good to see you. I’m sorry about that person following you from Leatherman with bullshit.
About that light, I stil think the first streak is GZ’s car passing the eph at low speed. I think he stopped just out of view of the camera, and I still think the beam of light is a flashlight. Maybe he stopped and just pointed the light from his car. One of his neighbors describes that kind of behavior. Patrolling the area in his car with the lights of and shining his flashlight into alleyways.
It doesn’t really matter. His behavior was creepy either way.
He also keeps on top of the cameras, he knows who’s responsible for them and the tapes/cd’s and he knows that the front gate cameras aren’t working. Could he be intentionally avoiding getting caught in a good view?
You noticed that too. So much for his poor memory.
He was aware of the camera’s. It was discussed during that very first interview.
He even remembers that he has this information stored on his cell phone, I recall the officer asked him to get it and he did. Such meticulous record keeping when it serves him, yet no records of what the NW is about, go figure. And this from a man who can’t remember the three streets in the nabe he’s been patrolling for six months? Pardon me if I have to say gaaah!
Found video for rent …
But the video shows door with a key entry not keypad. Please note it was 2 years ago. Changes may have been in the interim.
I know I seen that somewhere about the door having only keypads, so if you lost your keys, no one can get into your house. Still looking for it bear with me…..
Prosecution leaked witness names with last discovery:
I think one of those witnesses may be this neighbor, interviewed in this fox news cast. It’s fine that he’s going to testify about GZ not being a racist and black friends coming to his house and all. He’s a neighbor and friend. But you gotta be amused at his account about GZ’s injuries the next day “I’d seen BIG BANDAGES!!!” Right there on his nose!!!! Sorry, Shellie just really overdid it with the bandages. Reminds me of kids who always ask for a boo-boo bandage even when they’re not bleeding. It’s cute on a 5-year-old, not so much on a 28-year-old gun-toting wannabe cop.
I noted the bandages on GZ face and head during the Police video. Noted that the nose bandage was place wrong, Medical training requires the bandage to go across the nose not down it as GZ had it, also the bandage on the back of his head were what are called “Knee Bandages” they are specifically used on injuries at the joints, they are designed so that the joint like an elbow can still function. I kept wondering who put them on. Shellie was in training to be a Nurse, but she like GZ must not be doing well in school.
I think it was Osterman who said that Shellie applied the bandages. You’re right, a true broken nose would require a hard splint that goes across the bridge of the nose to keep it from moving further. That thing he had on his nose is like a soft bandaid, which does nothing for a broken nose. To give Shellie the benefit of the doubt, I think it was meant to just cover that tiny little nick he had on the skin on his nose. Regardless, it wasn’t bleeding and it’s still weird to put it on vertically. Any “swelling” seen there or on the back of the head (not that we can see anything from the video) would be expected from the cuts he had. That’s just edema or swelling due to the cuts. Heck, I get a swollen finger from a papercut. Don’t think we need Xrays of his knuckle bandaged knucklehead to see he wasn’t hurt. In statements and in the Sean Hannity interview, GZ says that TM hit him repeated in the head from several times to more than a dozen times. I’m sorry, but my kid fell off a chair and bumped his face on a PADDED armchair and got a bruise far worse on his nose than I can see on GZ.
HA! that’s right “nurse” Shellie put those giant sanitary napkin looking things on his giant head (well he is a bit of a pussy) ..she was already doing placement so she must have done AT LEAST a first aid course by then…might as well have put christmas lights around them as well just to make sure everyone noticed that georgie had a boo-boo on his head.
Found it! Don’t know how reliable source is but it was in this article
Excerpt copied from article….
• • •
Every building at the Retreat at Twin Lakes is painted some shade of brown: taupe, terra cotta, khaki. Every townhome has a garage out front and a keypad on the door handle — so if someone steals your keys they can’t get inside. Dozens of yards have signs alerting would-be intruders of alarm systems.
Yep, got it, thanks! That was quite a bit of work, I’m grateful.
So I guess that either the back patio door was open, or TM would have had to go around to the front to use a code to get in. But with someone following him, I sincerely doubt he’d want to go in through the back patio door, even if he could do so quickly, because the follower would know where he was and could still come after him, and he’d also be putting little Chad in danger as well. The only smart thing to do is stay away from the house entirely.
Of course, in the rest of the story at that link I read that someone could not get into the house with the code alone. They had left their key and had to go around to enter through the back where the patio door was open. So, the keypad alone doesn’t provide access either. That kind of means that, since TM had no key, either back patio door was open, or he would have to get Chad’s attention somehow.
I don’t think so, I’d think he’d have left the patio door open, so he could have easily entered without Chad’s help. It’s what I would do, after all there would hardly be anyone about testing doors in the rain. The odds of intrusion are just vanishingly low.
So, it looks like when TM detected GZ still following him, he turned away from the house.
Thanks again, I read this as well. Now I’m sure that TM, if he did make it almost to the house, he turned away from the house when he realized GZ was still following him. He was not going to lead GZ to his house, that was his concern and why he ran back north.
It also means that GZ was probably south of TM when he got near the house.
He had most likely left the patio door open and intended to return that way.
I have a small request if its not to much trouble. It is related to audio. I know we differ on our take on the racking not racking of gun. With that said, I still consider your expertise in audio valuable. If at all in your spare time can you take a real good listen to audio with Jeremy talking in the background. You don’t hear any heavy breathing until after the shot like he came to Jeremy’s house. It doesn’t sound like her heavy breathing, @ 1:57 I hear “fucked me up good” then a throat clearing.
Could you take a listen to the whole thing and really pay close attention to the mark in time
“You don’t hear any heavy breathing until after the shot like he came to Jeremy’s house.”
“He” meaning GZ? W18 has given an account of GZ’s movement after the shot, corroborated by Mary and Selma. He mucked about with the body a bit, got up, and then walked straight towards the ‘T’. (See W18’s map, I forget exactly where it is in the docs). As GZ got to the ‘T,’ JonW13 ‘Asian Man’ with flashlight arrived, and they stood there chatting until Ofc. Smith got there. So if you’re thinking GZ might have gone into Jeremy’s townhome, I REALLY doubt it. I’ll listen to that spot again though.
Please do, anything is possible with case…
Yes “he, meaning GZ.
I think its very possible he might of step by or was by Jeremy house if he was walking towards witness 18 house he had to pass witness 11 house. According to IMGUR map. Or am I looney again.
Check out witness 20 Jeremy interview with FDLE.
He is all confident throughout unitl he gets to the questions if he knew either party by MEDIA or reports. He acts like he doesn’t understand the question and answers with a question.
Listen from 5:05 or better yet listen to the whole thing
fdle march 19 interview
A good read….
haven’t read it all yet but this part sums a lot up for me
“Arguing otherwise is the height of absurdity, especially considering that Zimmerman was not even a cop, because to argue in support of what Zimmerman did, is to argue that anyone is allowed kill anyone else, at any time, for any reason, or no reason at all, so long as they can justify it to themselves, which is about as close to anarchy as you can get.”
off to read the rest of it
hmmm not sure, i get some of it but he seems to be making stuff up because he doesn’t believe the police like the keys etc. and knowing where Trayvon was staying.
I think he wrote it early and got some minor stuff mixed up, but overall good job.
He got a lot of stuff right for the publication date given. It’s in the later part that he veers off course.
“On February 26, 2012, George Zimmerman was living the dream, and for Trayvon Martin, that dream was a nightmare.”
I’m sorry but on 2/26/12 GZ wasn’t living any dream, for sure his dream would have allowed him to act with impunity, and not have to wriggle and lie about it and struggle to cover his tracks. As a police officer his word would have nearly been gospel and more than enough to almost guarantee he’d go free in the end, or get some remarkably light sentence.
As it was GZ was contriving lies from the start, ducking and attempting to dodge every responsibility he was aware of. Not to mention it appears he had help along the way. Now I’ve got to go back and finish reading,
Guy doesn’t even understand the definition of “burglary”, doesn’t understand it involves illegal entry.
Yeah, that bothered me, too.
Coming out of lurkdom to say how happy I am to see you back here; along with whonoze, I appreciate your balanced commentary. I wish you’d add your voice to whonoze’s by participating on the Frederick Leatherman blog, as well as here.
Somebody managed to post on Leatherman (and another WordPress.com using site as well, I think I remember) and make it look like it was me, so I discontinued.
I’ve mostly been hanging out, Martin/Zimmerman-wise, at TalkLeft’s Zimmerman forum where taking the middle position of not taking sides except the side of figuring out the puzzle of just what happened that night is usually interpreted as being anti-Zimmerman (as opposed to a lot of other places where it’s interpreted as being anti-Martin).
But I spend more time at tivocommunity.com these days than any place else.
Thanks for the kind words.
Welcome back, long time no see unitron. Also, nemerinys, don’t know if you ever commented here before, but glad you’re “out” of lurkdom. Best way to shut me up is to get me busy reading other people’s comments. It’s been kinda slow around here, especially since NLME stopped commenting. But then again, it generally (not always) keeps people away who need attention from a moderator.
Thanks, nice to feel appreciated.
Or at least tolerated. : – )
We ❤ ❤ ❤ unitron. Hail the true skeptic's return!
Thank you, wassointeresting, for the welcome. I’m so glad someone somewhere provided a link to this site several months ago because I’ve very much enjoyed the commentary, and I’m especially in awe of the hard work you and others have done to decipher discovery documents and the surveillance videos. I haven’t commented before because ya’ll are so quick to “say” what I would’ve said.
Good to see you back! I always enjoy your posts, and that is even if I disagree. 🙂
It’s kinda sad when the housing brokerage firm has to publically distance themselves from the HOA (see front page of this link). http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes
While positive signs of a housing recovery are being seen nationwide, the RATL has GZ to thank for keeping them in the hole for awhile longer. Despite the listings seen here for low $100’s, townhomes are going into short sales there for about $75,000 now. That’s down from about $250,000 at the peak. What a bargain!! Might just consider moving there. GZ’s gone. Oh wait, Taaffe still lives there, and then there’s the SPD….never mind.
I listened to the W11 911 call again. I hear the phrase you’re asking about, though I can’t make out what is being said. It has the sonic quality of something being played over a speaker, and then picked up the telephone mic. I would guess it’s on the 911 end. It could possibly be sound from a TV set or something on W11’s end, but I doubt it, since she says she went upstairs after the gunshot, and they were supposedly watching TV downstairs. It also stands out from the other background sounds… if it was a bit of TV dialogue I’d expect there to have been more of it…
It’s pretty clear that W11 DID go upstairs, since she says repeatedly “Jeremy! Get up here!” From upstairs it would have been virtually impossible to pick up any sound from the exterior unless it was quite loud, and even then it would have been highly unlikely for that sound to have the pinched tonal quality of that phrase (it would be more, ‘boomy’ hollow, off-mike, like Jeremy’s voice when he’s in the distance). I think the breathing is hers because it’s level is pretty consistent, meaning it’s coming from the same distance from the mic, while Jeremy seems to be moving about, his voice getting closer and then further away again.
Thanks for looking into it. Appreciate your analysis ; ^ )))))
Yeah, I couldn’t make out anything there either….BTW, Loree, I have no idea what you look like in real life, but I still can’t out of my head the image of that cute wide-eyed rosy-cheeked avatar of yours (blushedbrown) chomping away on sundried jerky ala “Gilligan”, turnips and fava beans. Great, I may have to go vegetarian with a Tofurkey this Thanksgiving….
LMAO LMAO LMAO
I finally get ahold of myself from the first post , now I have that picture in my head and can’t stop laughing.
I can’t even comment on tofo turkey….yet give me a couple of hours
a nice bottle of Chianti ….65 would be nice
It’s been nearly 2 months without visiting bcclist. I have been severely busy and had no time for the case. I now start to see the light out of the tunnel. So, I’ll try to catch you up if that’s even possible.
I’m really happy to read from you again.
Welcome back, sir. 🙂
Nice to have you back
It looks like you’ve been involved in some inside-RATL video work. I may have been too quick reading the posts, so I’m sorry if I got it wrong.
The first video Dave Knechel “Retreat at Twin Trees Walk thru” was posted by Xena. We had discussions about it, and I thought well if he did this video maybe I can ask him for a video from TM possible pathways, so I asked and he replied that he would! . In short, I asked other posters to come up with TM possible pathway. We put together a short list for him that must be in the video. He is currently in negotiations with the videographer, we should be hearing something back soon.
I will post the links in a minute so you can catch up.
Its a pleasure to see your fonts again !!!
Hi tchoupi, a lot of ground has been covered since you were gone. Glad to see you’re back. I kind of figured you had gotten busy. Your name has been spread far and wide because of your analysis which I, and everyone else has been referring to.
Trent Sawyer, on Youtube has recently posted an analysis in which he finds that not only did GZ park in front of the clubhouse, but that a second vehicle pulled in along side him and they both left together and went over to TTL. Trent also says that a vehicle lit out like a bat out of hell after the shot was fired. So anyway hope this helps bring you up to speed.
interesting…he seems to think it’s Taaffe, i’d be more inclinded to think Osterman. He has too much to lose and he was there so quickly. But no one saw anyone else so if he was there what was he doing and why didn’t he help george contain the ‘suspect’? Maybe it was just someone driving past, i’m sure other people were out on the roads that night.
Hardly, not from the amount of time Trent had to wait watching the video until the vehicles appear, there really wasn’t much traffic at all. It’s really tedious work he says he had to watch something like 20 or 39 minutes of blank video just until these two cars appear. One pulls into the clubhouse lot, then the other, then they both leave almost together and both go over to TTL. Trent is good, I mean really good, he’s one of the first people to discover that the time stamps were off by 18 minutes.
I’m waiting to see what or how tchoupi updates if he does.
That was a car driving on RVC towards the north gate. Another car drives on TTl towards the north gate couple of seconds later. Those two cars did not stop at the clubhouse. Seven minutes later 2 cars drive down TTL 30 sec apart. These 2 cars were not parked in front of the clubhouse, but came from the north gate or were driving west on RVC.
I know how difficult it is to watch those videos. I appreciate Trent’s efforts, but I think he had a narrative in his mind and then matched light events to the narrative.
The way Tchoupi, Whonoze and I finally decided at what time the videos began, was by matching the light events with known datapoints. The arrival times of the first 3 officers and the path they took after they arrived at the complex, and matched the arrival time of the first officer with the moment w11 saw Smith passing the mail area and telling 911 that she could see the police. She was calling from her front top bedroom facing TTL.
When we used that time, the emergency vehicles were exactly where w18 was telling they were in her call to 911.
Once the time was clear, we didn’t have to speculate what GZ was doing. We could just look at the videos.
Of course we don’t know who was driving those 2 cars down TTL earlier. But they didn’t stop facing east on TTL. If Willisnewton’s theory about the snowmama is right, and the boobs of snowmama are the garagedoors belonging to Jeremy and John, those two cars continue driving on TTL and pass those garagedoors driving south.
So they could be GZ and a partner circling the complex, but there is mo way we can tell by the videos.
Okay, the point I always make (or should in case anyone thinks otherwise) is that I have not analyzed the cctv’s I leave that to those who can and do.
I simply noted this conflict because Trent says two cars parked at the clubhouse, then one backed out with the other leaving as well and together they went to TTL. That, if I recall correctly, conflicts with Tchoupi’s statement that no car parked at the clubhouse, or at least GZ didn’t. I haven’t watched the videos so I can only take your collective words for what you’re telling us. I point to conflicts, not to criticize the work, I know it’s a tremendous effort that I have neither the patience or skills to mount.
But, I merely hope that upon reflection, some kind of consensus can be reached. Trent Sawyer appears to be working alone, if so there’s a greater likelihood of error, because the effort is so tedious.
So, then, from what you’re saying it appears to me that Tchoupi’s analysis still stands?
Yes, Tchoupi’s analysis stands. I wrote my first post on the Daily Ko’s about the videos on June 21st, before Trent did his analysis. I thought the video’s began at approx. 6:45. I made some of the same mistakes that Trent made. I wasn’t aware of any timestamps included with the video, but I used the arrival of the first police car to get to an approx. time.
Tchoupi didn’t make the make the same mistakes Trent and I made. I tried to understand the lights with a narrative in mind, and I think that is what Trent did too. Tchoupi made a chart of every light event, created maps with angles, scientific stuff you know.
I think it is possible that a second car was involved, but not based on the light events Trent uses. I’m quite sure that no other car was on TTL when Zimmerman called the nen. A car is seen driving on TTL towards the north gate right after Zimmerman ends the nen call. We can’t say whether the person driving the car was involved. I think the prosecution must be interested in this person.
I always thought that tchoupi’s analysis was the more thorough one. It made the most sense. GZ did not leave home in time to catch TM by Taaffe’s so that narrative is false. It’s only a 13 minute brisk walk from 711 to the mailboxes and I’m pretty sure that the rain was picking up, which would have caused TM to hustle along, perhaps even running the last hundred yards or so.
I know that when I’m out walking in inclement weather, I do not choose the shorter route, over the longer one that offers opportunities to take shelter. Which underpins my belief that TM would have come through the apartments area, even if he did not stop there. I take the mere fact that DD even mentions “apartments” about an area where she knows nothing at all about them even being available, means to me that TM must have mentioned them as being along the way. I’m sure he mentioned it was raining, since that is a remarkable event, that it might get heavier before he could seek shelter, would be a subject an extended conversation would address. Especially with a girlfriend who would be concerned that TM would not get soaked.
So then, it figures that GZ comes down RVC and is not on his way to the store as he claims. He sees nothing between his leaving home and the front gate, because he has no sight line into the mail shed, yet he does not turn and go out the front gate, instead he drives over to ttl for a look into the mail shed. Obviously he has been told to look there for someone, if not for TM himself. TM is not new to the neighborhood as we once were inclined to think. But had played football with other neighborhood kids. Perhaps even creating enough disturbance to arouse the ire of John? Could be. GZ may also have seen TM while he was on one of his dog walking patrols and, of course, FT would certainly have seen TM using the cut through just as nearly all the kids do. Why he was singled out may never be known. But it is a distinct possibility he was selected as a target, rather than just becoming a target, because of the timing of his trip to the store. Pure speculation, to be sure, but it’s also not impossible that confirmation might emerge.
In any event, GZ sees no one in the mail shed on his first inspection, and so drives back over to have another look at the cut through near FT’s. I’d have to guess that someone assured him that TM was still in the mail shed, so he turns around and goes back and this time he spot TM there and that sets the rest of the story in motion. Possibly TM was stretching his legs and had squatted down for a few seconds while talking to DD, as the reason that GZ doesn’t see him on his first pass. That makes sense? But, again it’s only another reasonable speculation.
In any event, the course or time of appearance of a car that is most likely GZ, gives an approximate time for him leaving home and arriving in the area near FT’s and going over to the mailboxes, there is no pausing to watch any events occurring near FT’s place as his narrative would have us believe. The only utility of the NEN call is to lay down the story GZ needs to sell. That he was not on patrol and had good reason to be interested in TM.
How’s my theory so far?
Possible. LLMpapa has an interesting theory about the cut-through. There are two cut-through’s. It is very unlikely that the one that passes by Taafe’s place is the one Trayvon would have taken if indeed he got into the complex via a cut-through.
I think Trayvon was in the mail area by 6:49. You can see it is raining in the ep video. That fits Deedee’s description that she called him back after the the phone got disconnected when Trayvon started to run to get out of the rain. So he must have been there long before GZ got there. GZ’s truck however drives by the clubhouse the first time at low speed. It looks like he stays on RVC passing the intersection, makes a uturn, passes the intersection, drives past the clubhouse, makes another uturn and only then goes right on TTL. While the truck is on RVC another car is also driving at low speed on RVC. GZ may have seen Trayvon. It would be great if the guy who was filming the area, could film what exactly you are able to see from the intersection.
What I don’t believe is that GZ saw Trayvon near Taafe’s house. How I would like to see GZ’s telephone records and text messages.
I don’t believe TM was seen entering by FT’s, but it does make sense for him to leave Rinehart road early as possible and go through the apartments, because there’s plenty of shelter there if he needs to use it.
If he stays on Rinehart up to where LLMpapa says, he can’t shelter if he get caught and has a long way to run to the mailboxes or clubhouse.
The only way DD would know or even say the word “apartments” is if TM had used that word before. The only reason he’d have to use it, would be to demonstrate that he’s thinking ahead and can shelter there if need be.
He’s in an idle conversation so he going to mention the rain, you know how women are going to scold you about being out in the rain getting wet. So my guess is he mentioned the availability of shelter at the apartments along his route. I see on google there is what appears to be a lot he can leave Rinehart road on before he gets to the apartments, so it isn’t much of a stretch. Taaffe could see him there from a window and call GZ, and that would explain why GZ left home when he did. Because, I think that without a call that someone was out there, he’d probably have Shelly in the car, if he was going to the store. He nixed it and told her he’d be right back and left home on the hunt.
You came to the same conclusion I did: It would be nice to know if he could see into the mailbox area, from anywhere along the route from RVC to the front gate. I’ve posted that request, hopefully the videographer will cover it.
I’m sorry Lonnie, but Trent is NOT good. He floats wild conspiracy theories that are poorly supported by the “evidence” he claims is definitive, while completely ignoring other established evidence that would undermine his claims. His interpretations of audio and visual evidence are consistently naive and unscientiific. The ideas that bright lights seen coming out of the blown out spot to the left in the pool video are flashlights, and that a porch light coming on over on the east side of TTL would make a noticeable difference back over by the pool are real howlers if you’ve ever tried to actually light anything for video. Plus, he’s full of himself, dismissive of others, and collects troll groupies as we’ve seen in this thread. He is NOT a credible source, and it pains me that so many people seem to think he is, just because they want to believe anything bad published about GZ. The truth may be less sensational than a Trent Sawyer analysis vid, but it’s bad enough.
And I have no sympathy for the amount of time TrentSawyer says he put into the tedious work of watching the videos. I’m sure tchoupi put in more, and he came up with a very plausible analysis that is NOT contradicted by other evidence. I myself did not put in hours interpreting the security videos, but I can’t count the hours I’ve spent going over the audio clips, doing the phonetic breakdowns, looking at waveforms and what not, so when TrentSawyer says ‘that sound is definitely Zimmerman knocking on John or Jeremy’s door!’ I just want to bust a cork.
Well, that confirms my suspicion, which is why when a supporter of his pointed me at his video, I didn’t automatically accept his claims, or reject Tchoupi’s out of hand, I merely noted the conflict for the kind of information you have provided, that says he’s the one likely in error. Tchoupi even looked at the rain! I’ll bet Trent didn’t bother. And Tchoupi’s tables are spot on. I liked the way he kept things separate, leaving it to others to combine the data and extract their own hypothesis. But not being one to do the video work, I could not, myself, challenge his work.
Of course Trent is free to field whatever theories he wants, but those without sufficient skills to match his work, cannot credibly issue challenges. All I could do was rely on the fact that tchoupi’s work makes the better sense. Anyway Trent leaves the comments on with his videos, so perhaps someone with skills will challenge him to demonstrate his claims.
Thanks. I’ll continue to weigh more heavily in tchoup’s favor. Oh and thanks for those rain tables you provided me, it allowed me to see that it was probably raining harder when TM left the mail shed, than it was when he went in. That has got to mean he was terribly frightened and/or distressed by GZ’s activities. He could have stay under shelter for some 20 or so minutes and still made the games start. Thus GZ’s actions were the only thing forcing him to try to move on quickly and without further delay.
OK, just watched Trent’s video about his theory of two cars. Because of how it’s presented, I can’t see what he’s talking about easily. But somehow I have in my head that GZ said that there was a car backing out and that he had to stop/slow down and/or go around it. I’m thinking it was while he was on RVC, but in looking at the re-enactment video again, I can’t find / hear where he says that at all. Does anyone know/remember what I’m talking about, if it was made in an audio statement, or is it another one of my hallucinations?
GZ has given us so many variations and fed us a few through his family and associates, who could fault anyone for not being able to keep them all straight.
Of course there are numerous lies and whatnot, but even the best of liars have to weave some bit of truth into their narratives. Just trying to pick out those truths is darn frustrating. Awhile back someone asked, what are the truths that GZ has told? After “Just tell my wife I shot somebody.”, the list wasn’t very long.
Jurors aren’t going to like him at all if he takes the stand. They will be totally grossed out and horrified if he does that little chuckle he did on Hannity.
the only mention I recall of another car, from the re-enactment, was GZ saying “I pulled in beside that car, that want’s here then”. Meaning he stopped in the space beside where that car is now (in the clubhouse carpark). Been a while though and really don’t fancy sickening myself watching it again.
Haha another doing something that wasn’t there. Like looking for addresses nobody is or will be at. )So in a way makes sense he didn’t give these to Sean).
re Trent, I saw 1/2 of one of his early videos. I couldn’t finish it, it wasn’t making sense and I could see nothing
where he was pointing out “events”.
AH-HA! Found it. It was in an interview with Serino on 2/29
Serino: OK. OK. What did you see Trayvon doing that caught you as being suspicious?
Zimmerman: He was looking at the house intently and then…
Serino: What, the same house?
Zimmerman: The same house that, yeah, that I had called about before.
Serino: Did he stop, did he…?
Zimmerman: He stopped.
Serino: In front of the house?
Zimmerman: He stopped in front of the house and then I drove, there was a car like backing up, so I, I slowed down, and then I drove around him. And he kept looking at me, and then when I passed, oh, it was raining, and I said, you know what, he’s not walking briskly to get out of the rain. He wasn’t, um, he didn’t look like a marathon runner that’s active and like, you know, that trains in the rain. He was just walking slowly in the grass and on the sidewalk. I just said, something’s off. So, that’s why I called non-emergency.
Good job WSI!!!!
By the way, I found that link to the Serino transcript by just googling for mention of a car backing up and that came up, didn’t realize it was a rather pro-GZ site. Here’s the Axiom Amnesia link: I think it’s in part 1 of the 2/29/12 interviews.
I think it is possible that another car was involved but not based on Trent’s analysis. I think Tchoupi is right and no car was parked in front of the clubhouse. There are two cars driving on RVC just before GZ turns right on TTL. The other car doesn’t follow GZ on TTL. If a second car is involved, they may have split up and the second car may have driven to the back entrance. A car can be seen driving on TTL towards the north gate right after GZ ends his call with the nen. It is possible that GZ wanting to get off the phone is because he saw the other person driving on TTL again. Maybe the voices that w18 heard were GZ talking with that person, but that is speculation.
I used to think that if a second person was involved, it must have been Osterman, but I am not so sure because of the car the man in the bank videos is driving.
The following day during the walk-through when we know Osterman was watching, no cars are parked on TTL, but a white SUV is parked on RVC.
Another thing I found interesting was Taafe’s interview, where he describes GZ’s car parked on TTL facing towards the clubhouse. We know from the videos that at least at some point GZ was parked facing the clubhouse but much closer to the first curb. When GZ starts following Trayvon in his car, we can’t see him making another uturn on TTL. It is possible that he did, maybe his lights were off, but it is also possible that he was driving in reverse, which would mean his car was parked the way Taafe described it.
But the part about the a second car is speculation. There is no indication of a second car on TTL from when GZ drove his car on TTL until after he got off the phone. And if that second car we can see on TTL after GZ got off the phone belonged to either MO or FT, it doesn’t look they were near when the incident took place.
Howdy, i really don’t think Taaffe could tell his arsehole from his face to be honest. He probably had a brief chat with GZ and just ran his mouth off about details he wouldn’t know. I’m sure GZ just said “and then he ran so i got out of my car” but i doubt he would have gone into details about what side of the road, facing what direction. If taaffe was right about where the car was parked i’d say it was a guess….unless he really was there *cue twilight zone music do do do do*
i find it really hard to understand the club house videos…all i see is nothing nothing nothing light nothing nothing flash nothing nothing etc haha. I am so glad for those with the patience and smarts to work all that out, i just wonder how the prosecution is going to explain/use them in court,or if they will at all..
Jo said “i really don’t think Taaffe could tell his arsehole from his face”. HA! Especially when plastered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uaUKC_bJEw
For those who are wondering about the outcome of his DUI arrest:
–6 months probation/25 hours community service. (Also there was something about not letting him “buy out” his community service hours. Weasel!)
–must attend regular AA meetings
–cannot possess/consume alcohol
–cannot use controlled substances
–must complete ‘victim awareness’ class (sounds like something GZ needs too)
–(I don’t know what “counter attack school” is. Anyone?)
–pay court fees
Just the clever name of an anti dui program. Some NW’er, a real role model, eh?
Like most evidence, the cctv by itself means little to nothing. In fact you can’t even identify the vehicle, let alone the driver. But, that said, there is an approach that makes sense, and that is “eliminatory” sense. If GZ is to get to TTL from his house by a certain time, and the cameras can be shown to reliably record a light event, when a car passes through their field of view. Then we can expect a light event to occur, within the required time frame. If it does not, then either GZ would have been moving around with his lights off (suspicious), or he simply did not go that route at that time. If the cctv’s can bar him from using these areas at the times he is required to use them, then he can’t be where he claims to be at the time he says he was there.
From his narrative, we see a car coming down RVC in the right time frame to catch TM at the mailboxes. But we see no car on RVC, in time to catch TM at FT’s. Worse yet, from GZ’s story about what he observed on his right side, while on a road bending right then turning sharply left, in the dark and in the rain, while moving at some 30 to 40 ft/sec. isn’t plausible unless his vehicle comes to a complete stop and remains there for some time before continuing on. Since no car coming down RVC does this, we can safely assume that it did not happen.
In these cases it doesn’t matter who is driving the vehicles seen in the tapes, because one of them must be GZ, and one of them must perform as his story claims it should.
We do know that a car was stopped with it’s headlights shining into the mail shed. And we know from TM that some crazy looking guy was behind the wheel. The cctv’s show that a vehicle was there in the right time frame, moving in ways the testimony suggests. What we don’t know for sure is, who the “crazy guy” behind the wheel was. It could have even been MO or FT, while GZ was somewhere else giving a false narrative to the NEN operator. “He’s coming towards me”, could just as easily have been GZ, watching TM approach a vehicle with FT or MO behind the wheel. TM is not around to tell us, but if that were the case, it would probably be yet another reason he had to die. He could not be allowed to live to testify that GZ was not the one in the truck who he ran from. Certainly not if it was MO, because he has the most to lose if that were the case.
Of course, things are going so badly for GZ that I sincerely doubt the SP will need to use very much of the evidence they have collected to get a conviction. Until the trial is over, the SP’s office has got to be one of the happiest places on earth to work.
I think you gave a good description of Taaffe. I think somebody tipped GZ, but I don’t have a clue who did. I have some doubts about MO being the person in the bank videos, but that doesn’t exclude him as a candidate. There is a car entering the north gate at about the same time as I think Trayvon entered the complex. GZ’s telephone records will probably provide the answer to that question.
The purpose of the video that Whonoze wants make with the input and help from the other people on this blog that have been analyzing this video, is to be able to show and explain what can be seen in the videos.
You and others can be of great help in reaching that goal. Your feedback will help finding the right format so you are able to see what we are seeing.
Maybe we can show the prosecution that it is possible to present the information to a jury in an accessible way.
What is in those videos is powerful. They show that Zimmerman is lying. They show how he was stalking Trayvon long before the final encounter. They show that when Zimmerman was making his nen call describing Trayvon’s suspicious behaviour, Zimmerman was watching a kid hiding from the rain in the mail area. They show that when Zimmerman said ” now he is coming towards me”, he was parked at the curb directly opposite the mail area, and Trayvon had to pass his car to get home. The videos make a mockery of Zimmerman’s story of Trayvon disappearing and returning to circle his car.
The videos won’t help explain what happened when Trayvon was shot, but they can show Zimmerman lied about almost everything leading up to the incident.
I agree w all of this.
Good to see you again.
That I missed a lot is actually a good thing as it means that more came out.
I haven’t seen Trent Sawyer’s video. Do you have a link? I’m really suspicious about his conclusion as I really see no vehicle parking in front of the CH. However, I cannot comment before seeing the video.
I think this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOKeiG0pKBA&feature=channel&list=UL
Bienvenue au retour, Tchoupi. I haven’t seen Trent’s video, but in the split screen that Whonoze put together after your discussions here some time ago, at 7:16:55 when the gun goes off, I only see one car going past the clubhouse on RVC towards the front gate. I tend to agree with Jo that other cars were driving around that night, so we can’t explain every car that goes by.
[video src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2816030/secvidw4636.mp4" /]
I should add that Trent Sawyer also post videos under the name “stateoftheinternet” so there’s more videos by him to see.
I’ve sent you another invitation to be an author on my evidence collection blog, you might find some use for the resources there, as an author you’ll be able to write articles and move things around now that google has straightened things out. Good to have you back.
aaahhh feels like a family reunion, great to have you back
Thanks Jo. It really feels like family indeed.
Serino hiring his own lawyer, Baez
That’s very curious. I wonder if Serino, who is now a beat cop, actually paying Baez? Or does Baez just want a sliver of limelight again?
Bizarre. Hiring Baez of all people. That is indeed just very curious.
He may be reading the blogs, lots of them are questioning the police actions/investigations and there is some very questionable things that were done early on. Maybe the SP et als is really interested in cleaning up the dept. or, perhaps it’s because they have the feds looking over their shoulders.
i’d say he doesn’t have a lot of trust in anyone right now, can’t say i blame him, and i bet Baez offered his council like most of them do in the big public cases. You always see the high publicity criminals with the best of the best lawyers who will do anything to win the case because their reputation is on the line….look at Gloria Allred, sticking her fucking face into everyones business as long as it’s a news story…”ooooh look at me i’m a womens advocate” ….NO you are Gloria Allreds advocate, don’t say you stand for womens rights when you throw your support behind every mistress in LA, what about the women your clients hurt….THE WIFE…ALSO A WOMAN…advocate for her, bitch…..but i digress…yeah i doubt Serino has to pay
Remember MOM is also on the hunt, Serino could slip and give any of them something to go after him with. The department is looking for a scapegoat too.
So Baez made his way into this case afterall
yes Lonnie exactly, MOM is going after everyone, Serino’s already been shafted or so it seems by his own side so i doubt he would trust them to have his back, good move, strange choice….but i guess Baez must be good since CA got off.
My guess is Baez pays attention to controverting and/or nullifying evidence with alternative theories. MOM, isn’t doing that, but, even if it’s partly because he isn’t good at it, the major reason is actually that he can’t. GZ has robbed him of wiggle room by ensnaring himself in huge tangled ball of easily disproven fake theories and self incriminating remarks.
I believe there’s enough good hard evidence in the interviews, to refute his claim of poor memory, that has to be a first in criminal justice history.
My best guess is that Serino wanted outside counsel when he found out OMara wants to depose him.
Considering all that is going on, I believe Serino did the right thing. Not sure about retaining Baez, but who knows what goes on in Florida. Some of the witnesses retained counsel as well.
doesn’t Dexter live in Miami, where is he when ya need him (jokes)
Love Dexter! And Homeland
Good to see you again. I also had to take a break.
great to see you back!
Good to see you too.
Hoe gaat het met jou? That’s about the best Dutch I can remember. It’s so sad!!!
I’m trying to get back to Trayvon’s case after so many weeks. I hope my memory could keep more of it than it did of Dutch.
@tchoupi: Go here: http://tinyurl.com/d4x2y6b and sign up, then I’ll give you administrative powers, you’ll be able to author articles and move things around and such. It’s just a collection of stuff about the case all in one big jumbled pile, but it may give you some inspiration. I already sent you and invite but it might have gone to your junk folder.
I’ve been there yesterday. I did not sign up yet but I looked it. It is very well done. I will not commit to writing articles as I’m still busy but I’ll try. Thanks
It’s not a site for writing article, it’s just a place to store snips and links to stories, memorable blog post and other errata. No article write needed, unless you feel like belting something out.
Hey Lonnie, It’s great you’re collecting all that stuff. If you have the time or care to do so, you should check out webs.com. You can build a free website quite easily there with pages and all to organize your collection better (I know I sound like an advertisement, but I don’t work for them by the way, but have used the web building tools there and they’re super easy….)
On another note, I noticed the title of your site is “George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin”. Don’t think I’m nitpicking, it just got me wondering about semantics (warning: gonna be rambling here). In thinking about it, GZ’s case is officially “The State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman”. Whenever there’s a legal case, I guess the “defendant” is listed last right? A boxing matching might advertise the opponents as names as “John Doe vs. James Doe” with the champion or challenger in a certain order (I don’t know which). In any case, the presumption is there’s a dual in which one side or the other will have a chance of winning. The “confrontation”, “altercation”, or whatever one might call it was never a fair “fight” between the two. One had a gun and a pre-conceived idea in his head that ultimately resulted in the death of an innocent teenager, however one believes that it was murder 1, murder 2, manslaughter or self-defense. So what does “George Zimmerman vs. Trayvon Martin” mean now? Beyond GZ and his murder case with the state, has it become between people who believe in the innocence of one or the other? I’ve always hated the terminology (but am forced to use it) of “pro-GZ” or “pro-Trayvon” because it just suggests there’s still a fair fight to be had. Justice is still needed, but TM never had a fair chance at life once he was targeted. I guess that “unfairness” can be best illustrated by the haunting image on Tchoupi’s site, scroll down to the very bottom to see his entry “The unbearable lightness of blood”. http://imgur.com/a/bcAII
With treepers out there, I just cobbled together a title that was somewhere between the two spheres. So I wasn’t paying attention to any subtleties at all. It’s just a “quick ‘n’ dirty” get’er done job. Leaving it open for viewing was a “what the heck” after thought.
Comment ça va? Je suis très heureux de vous revoir.
I had to dig deep in the dungeons of my memory to dig that up.
I forgot some of the details, but luckily I can go to your charts to look it up.
Can you review my exchange about Z’s headlights with wsi starting at wsi’s question posted November 15, 2012 at 12:00 pm? Did I get it right, or is there a different explanation for the gap in time wsi points out?
Nice to see that Sandy didn’t blow you away. I have colleagues who got quite in troubles over there.
Concerning your question, I think WSI makes a good point in is question as of why the event doesn’t last until GZ’s truck stops in the frame of the EPH video.
My understanding is the same as yours Whonoze. First this is not a shadow. It is a light event. Then, it must have to do with the car that was caught seconds earlier by the Game Room camera and that is caught later by the East Pool camera. I personally, didn’t pay enough attention to this event as I quickly brushed it as being GZ’s headlights. I may have been wrong.
It was clear to me that GZ drove very slowly at that point and eventually stopped by the mailbox shed. What WSI points at is to my views light beam from GZ’s truck. How his Honda ridgeline sheds its light on the street is not something I can answer to. It may be worth experimenting. In any cases, I can’t see any other explanation but headlights.
This is the first video by Marinade Dave that inspired LLMPapa and Trent Sawyer in a series of other videos. It also inspired me to ask for a possible video regarding TM’s possible, plausible routes to the “T”, such as from 1460 (Taffee address) to the mailshed to the T.
LLMPapa video 1 of 4
LLMPapa part two
LLMPapa part three
Trent Sawyer’s aka Stateof theinternet
George Zimmerman – R@TL walk through w/ PD dispatch call
I spelled your name wrong sorry, Tchoupi
I checked Trent’s video. It doesn’t make much sense to me. I think he relied on a small portion of the information he got from the videos to come up with his story.
Together with Amsterdam & Whonoze, we used way more known events from various sources: Police logs, witness calls, EMT logs, witness statements. I believe we’ve been able to line up the videos up with all of these events with a very high degree of confidence.
The statement made about Trent watching minutes of video with nothing to see is the one thing I can relate to. I watch every single video from start to finish.
The one thing I’ve been lucky to think about is to log on a piece of paper the time of every single event I would notice. That was the single good idea I had in the whole stuff. The collected data could be correlated, analysed statistically, classified and sorted, synchronized, you name it. Even things that I missed like the lights events on the buildings across the pond could be quickly inserted in picture. So, lining up the videos with police cars, emergency trucks and 911 calls is something that was made possible thanks to that single little idea. But what is really important is that it allows seeing the picture as a whole without making too many assumptions. This is what is missing in Trent’s work.
Yes, you had adequately explained, in blog, how you correlated various information to arrive at your conclusions, is why I tended to doubt Trent’s conclusions where he’s using just apparent events and times. Where I expected to see headlights in the windows I saw none. But, since I’m not a video analyst, taking the time to do it, I had to wait for you guys, who did the work, to point out where he fails if he did. My own opinion simply wasn’t credible enough for me to make such a denouement myself.
Only people at his skill level or above are qualified to critique his work, in my opinion, so I turned to you.
In fact I can see why GZ would claim he followed TM from FT’s to the clubhouse! It gives him a reason for not going out the front gate on his claimed shopping trip. Since, obviously, if he sees nothing between his leaving home and the front gate, for his claim to be true, he has to go out the front gate if there is nothing to see.
Instead, he goes immediately over to ttl and looks in the mail area. What can he expect to see there on a rainy Sunday evening? Absolutely nothing, unless someone who knew where TM was, notified him that TM was there.
That is a more reasonable explanation of why he doesn’t have his wife in the car. He probably got the call and said “honey I’ll be right back!” He probably dropped whatever he was doing, like taking shopping money out of baggies used to hold client money he received and dropping in coins to remind him how much he had taken out of the baggie. I’ve seen people with home offices do that before. You collect money from clients and before you can record it, you simply drop it into a baggie because you don’t want to do the recording right then in front of the client. If you need some cash, you simply raid the baggies and drop in coins to remind yourself of how much you took out.
GZ had one of these baggies in his pocket, means to me, he left home in such haste he forgot to put it down. So he shoved it in his pocket. He probably took fifty dollars out of that baggie and gave it to Shelly for shopping. Then raced to get to the mail shed before TM could leave.
John has a view of the mail shed from his window, or there was probably another car on the street with someone in it watching. My guess is MO would want to get there before 7pm so he doesn’t have to use the code GZ gave him, while GZ is still at home. Because that would trace back to GZ if it was recorded. If so, then he comes in the gate in the right time zone to see TM. And of course there’s FT, who also doesn’t have to stay in his house while all this excitement is taking place.
Like NLME says, it would be nice to see their phone records.
List of today’s visitors to my evidence pile:
United States 118
United Kingdom 12
I tried to contact Dave Knechel to check if he still has the access to inside RATL.
If he does and if he agrees on helping us, then here is my shopping list:
1) film the walk from FT’s to the front of the clubhouse, to the T, then back to circle a car parked on TTL where GZ claims he was and back to the T,
2) take pictures from inside the clubhouse (game room) of a car parked in front on RVC by day and night,
3) film from inside the clubhouse (game room) someone walking east on RVC by day and night,
4) take pictures of a car parked by the mailboxes shed from the pool hall by day and night,
5) take pictures of TTL from the pool by day and night,
6) film from the pool a car parking on TTL facing the clubhouse by day and night,
7) film from the pool a car parking on TTL facing the T by day and night,
8) take pictures of the clubhouse from 1231 TTL (w03’s).
This is a lot but I actually have much more difficult in mind:
A) Ask W03 where was the police car and in what direction it was going when she saw it?
B) Ask W03 if she remembers a truck parked on TTL when she noticed the police car. If yes, where was it and how was it parked?
C) Ask W18 if she moved to her front room when she noticed the sirens. If yes, did she see the ambulance?
D) Ask W13 if he noticed a truck on TTL.
E) Ask W01 & W02 where was the 1st police car parked on RVC.
F) Ask W01 & W02 where was the 1st ambulance pared on RVC.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE!!! Just stuffed my turkey and it’s in the oven. Best wishes to all! Even if you’re not celebrating or just having a meal of canned corn today, give your family, friends, dog, pet iguana, your computer, iphone, whoever or whatever might be special in your life a hug today, because we all know life is just too short to take anything for granted.
Thanks for the wise words, WSI. Best wishes to you and your iphone, too! lol. Some of life is bitter, but much is sweet and this is the time to give thanks for all that is good about our short time here. Everyone here in Tejas is getting ready one way or the other -either cooking or saddling up for deer camp. I wish I could buy everyone here a drink of holiday cheer, rest assured, I plan on having a pint on y’all’s behalf this weekend. Feel free to do the same!
I’m actually outside right now with my laptop, watching my cats and bees our backyard chickens greet the dawn with my cup of tea, and a butterfly just landed on my trackpad. I’ll take that as a good omen for the day, hope you all have a good one too.
Happy Thanksgiving to All @ BccList!!!!!!
Happy Thanksgiving, WSI and all! Thankful for this blog and our little blog family, lol. 🙂 You guys are fantastic!
Happy Thanksgiving to y’all from OZ.
For those looking to lose the holiday weight, here’s just the thing to make you hurl your Thanksgiving turkey and stuffing. Robert Zimmerman Jr says “In my eyes, George was a victim in a heinous assault.”
@ Lonnie Starr
I wouldn’t put too much weight on DeeDee’s mention of “apartments.” I say this as one who used to think it was signfiicant. I don’t anymore. For one thing, the reference comes not directly from DeeDee, but second-hand from reports of her interview with Benjamin Crump. (That is, we don’t her her mention “apartments” we here a reporter say she mentioned “apartments”) She may not have used the word “apartments” at all. Rather it may have been a word the reporter grabbed to make a quick soundbite paraphrase. If she did say “apartments” this may have been her own interpretation rather than anything Trayvon told her, as she is not familiar with RATL and wouldn’t know the difference between a townhome and an apartment.
Where she would have said “apartments”, if she did, is in the unintelligible first part of the Crump recording that was released in discoverey. I remain absolutely convinced that ABC news has an intelligible recording of this interview that they are withholding for some reason. Perhaps, as Crump mentioned, it was forwarded to the FBI but not to FDLE. In any event, as I’ve noted before, I’ve listened to that awful recording to the extent my ears could take it, and while I can’t make out DeeDee’s precise language, there are times when i can get the gist of what she is talking about. And what I get from this is that she was clear with Crump, as she was will BdlR, that Travyon took refuge from the rain INSIDE RATL under the mailbox awning. If she says “apartments” somewhere in that muddle, I think it’s just a passing, off-hand remark, perhaps a simple mistaken choice of term.
I think we’re all pretty sure that GZ is lying about seeing Trayvon near Taaffe’s, but it’s still possible that Trayvon returned to RATL by either the shortcut or the front gate.
The shortcut is a better fit for a ‘conspiratorial’ scenario, in which someone else see’s Trayvon by Taaffe’s or walking down RVC, and ‘tips’ George. I used to think this was a very strong possibility. The likely ‘tipsters’ would be Taaffe or Mark Osterman, but as we learn more about each of them this seems less and less likely. Taaffe’s really not that gung-ho — he doesn’t have his act together enough to be gung ho — and he really wasn’t that close to GZ. The guy in the bank video kinda looks like a guy who was identified as Osterman in one of the pics of GZ leaving jail, but it turns out that was a mis-identification. The bank video guy doesn’t really look like the real Osterman.
So all in all, I think it’s more likely that GZ was just out cruising solo, as he seems to have done quite often. Having a ‘posse’ doesn’t really fit his psychology: HE is the only one who cares, the only one keeping RATL from succumbing to a wave of crime, as solitary as Clint Eastwood in High Plains Drifter or Dirty Harry. This scenario is really more damning to GZ. if someone else had seen Trayvon come through the cut-through and walk down RVC they could have interpreted his behavior as possibily “suspicious”. But if George is just running his little patrol when he sees a kid by the mailbox, the transformation of Trayvon into “a real suspicious guy just walking around looking at all the houses” is just a fantasy of George’s warped (or shall we say depraved) mind.
I do think George benefited from a number of people participating in a “cover-up” after the fact. (I put the term in quotes since these folks may have been inclined to believe the gist of his self-defense claim, and not have realized it was actually murder.)
I mean, really, if anyone else had been involved in some attempt to apprehend an “asshole”, they probably would have brought a whiff of sanity to the situation. To me the spiraling out of control is a product of crazy thoughts bouncing around inside GZ’s head, and his alone.
First, thank you for clarifying that DD may not have actually used the word “Apartments”. If she did not, then it’s not a clue. Secondly, even if it was a clue and TM did come that way, that does not mean I subscribe to GZ having seen TM there. In fact he comes down RVC too late to have seen TM passing through that area either way.
Of course I realize that DD doesn’t know the area. Which is why I figured, that if she used the word “apartments” she would be repeating a word that TM had used, in attempting to describe the options to shelter along the route he was taking. Since he does know the difference because he’s been there enough times to be familiar with the area.
I’m not reading the transcripts and such, because every time I do, I discover yet another disgusting feature to this charade GZ is trying to put on, even though there is more than enough to sink him already. My stomach isn’t strong enough yet to take another shot to the gut, so I delay.
I think she’s trying to get in all that she heard, knowing that some details and the actual places, will confirm the veracity of what she heard. I don’t believe TM sheltered there, if he did pass that way, but decided to continue over to shelter at the mailboxes. But it makes sense that he would leave Rinehart road at the earliest possible time, because there are no opportunities to shelter there for a very long time and the rain was increasing steadily if slowly. You wouldn’t want to get caught without shelter in a downpour that could happen at any time, so you’d take a route that followed opportunities to take shelter. Even if that route was a bit longer. But, as you say, it may be that she didn’t say that word at all.
The bank video with the image of what could be Osterman, was taken into evidence by the SP, so it’s possible bank records indicate it was him, but they haven’t been released. FT doesn’t have to be very gung ho, to give GZ a call if he spots TM. That plus the fact that no car coming down RVC makes the motions needed to fit GZ’s claims of spotting TM by FT’s place, in the appropriate time slot. Nor does any car, coming down RVC go out the front gate, as it should if TM cannot be seen in the mail shed from anywhere along this route. Instead the car that does come down (or rather up) RVC in the right time slot, goes straight over to where a view into the mail shed is to be had. If that’s not GZ then another lie is being told us.
If it is GZ, then he wasn’t on his way to the store, but was instead on the hunt. Since he could not have seen TM from his house, someone had to tell him someone was there and where to look for him. From Tchoupi’s analysis, GZ doesn’t see TM in the mail shed on his first pass, and so he courses back for another view of the cut through near FT’s. Then turns around and goes back to the mail shed. So, it seems someone was watching GZ’s progress and called him again, to tell him to go back to the mail shed, because TM is still there. (I postulate that TM had squatted down while talking to DD, to stretch his legs for a moment, as why GZ didn’t see him on his first pass. It’s normal behavior for teens and athletes to squat after some exertion to stretch the leg muscles, and TM had to be walking briskly over the course, if only because the rain was increasing.
Odd thing is, TM leaves the mail shed while the rain is even harder than it was when he first got in. The only explanation for this would be, that GZ had scared him and he decided to move on despite the rain.
Anyway all this is tentative, like with everything else we’re going to have to wait for the truth of the matter to come out with either additional evidence releases or at the trial itself.
“Since he could not have seen TM from his house, someone had to tell him someone was there and where to look for him. ” Again, that’s what I once thought, but no more. GZ didn’t need any incentive to go out ‘patrolling.’ Residents of RATL have allegedly reported he creeped people out by driving around surveiling the neighborhood, sometimes with his lights off. I think if someone had reported TM at the clubhouse area– unless that person was on the phone with GZ as GZ was driving by (oh, to see his phone records) — then that info would have been a bit ‘old’. Had GZ been tipped specifically to the mailbox area, he wouldn’t have gone straight on RVC. He would have turned down TTL on the first pass. So if someone said, “There’s a suspicious kid by the clubhouse,” when GZ drives by and doesn’t see anything, he would likely assume the “asshole” had moved on and continued his search rather than doubling back.
The scenario that makes the most sense to me is GZ is driving down RVC, patrolling, (definitely NOT going shopping), and he fails to see TM at first because of the intervening obstacles. But as he continues down RVC, something in the rear view mirror catches his eye. It’s a glimpse and he’s not sure, but he wants to check it out so he makes a u-turn. He still doesn’t get a good enough view to know TM is there until he’s committed to going straight through the intersection again in the opposite direction. But then, yes, there IS someone by the mailboxes! so he makes a second u-turn, heads back to the intersection and turns right onto TTL. There he gets a good look at Trayvon, inching by the mailboxes rather than driving, and no doubt making eye contact with the young man.
Trayvon would have had to see the truck turn the bend on TTL then turn around again to park facing him. He’s apprehensive, naturally, so he figures it’s time to head home, but he’s not so worried yet as to seek a circuitous route. So he cautiously walks down TTL, giving the truck a wide birth, telling DeeDee he’s not going to run, just walk fast…
So while the movements of GZ’s truck don’t exclude the possibility of some kind of ‘tip-off,’ they hardly require it, and are explained as well or better by a ‘lone vigilante’ hypothesis.
just a thought that went thru my head….
Remember when witness 19 said she thought it was the older gentleman that lives near her. I was thinking about the knocking sounds, maybe he was knocking on his door, not John’s. He wasn’t home IIRC from her audio. Does anyone know where this gentleman resides at that can be put on Tchoupi’s map?
I don’t know for sure where he lives/lived, but on Tchoupi’s map there’s one townhome next to flashlight JonW13 which is directly across from Jon W6 that does not have a witness label on it. It would be a “couple of doors from” W19 in the direction of the altercation. I still don’t believe any of the sounds are knocking on door sounds, and I can’t think of why GZ would be knocking on a neighbor’s door anyway in that situation.
I’m on the fence on some of the knocking sounds. I still believe he racked that gun, JMO.
I think he racked the gun too. There are different noises. The knocking sounds are probably GZ tapping his flaslight, but the first sounds after he stops running is not the tapping sound. I think he ejected the magazine, put it back in and then racked the gun.
Here is a video with a demonstration of the kel tec pf9.
About all of this speculation, including the movements, which of course are fascinating to me and vary slightly on minor points like we all seem to be doing. (Let’s not stop questioning, theorizing and discussing by any means.)
But when day is done, the “bottom line” is, many things are possible; what GZ claims is NOT possible given the evidence we have all seen and that can be presented in a court of law.
I’m not going to say “case closed” but I can tell you what IMO it is that HE knows in his heart, and that is that justice is coming.
; ^ )
Okay, Loree, after you find the sound where he chambers a round, find the sounds where he’s holding a gun and a flashlight in the dark and the rain and ejects the clip and puts another round into it and then puts it back in the gun.
I’ll say it again… It is good to have you back! 🙂
Unitron says, “after you find the sound where he chambers a round, find the sounds where he’s holding a gun and a flashlight in the dark and the rain and ejects the clip and puts another round into it and then puts it back in the gun.”
I have no heavy opinion right now of whether that’s a gun racking sound or not on the NEN call. I know jack sh*t about guns too. Unitron, I remember and appreciated your having to educate me on the gun stuff way back when I first came to the blog. But just to throw this idea there. People have the assumption or believe GZ when he says he carried his gun everywhere and therefore would have had it ready to go in his waist band when he ran out of the truck. This may be based on believing that this is one of GZ’s few truths, or based on a personal experience in which a person him/herself always carries a gun at the ready. But let’s entertain another scenario. What if he had placed a new clip in the gun just prior to calling NEN, hence we don’t hear that sound. When he sees TM running, he grabs the gun and holster, shoves it in his pocket and takes after TM. The first loud click click sound we hear soon after may be him pulling the slide Now I know Whonoze’s audiowave comparison with the sound of a racking gun taken from the net didn’t match quite right in terms of timing or waveform, but I’m going to posit that it could be due to differences in users and guns (even if the same model). That is, if you were to pull back the slide and let go, there may be a millisecond difference in time between when you let go of it and when I would let go of it. Also, the “smoothness” of how that slide goes back and forth on any individual gun could also affect the audio waveform, right? If one were to accept that, then is it plausible to hear only the sound of GZ pulling back the slide of the gun on the NEN call (the loud click click)? After he slips it into his holster and into his waistband, the other fainter tapping sounds could very well be him fiddling with the flashlight. Whatcha think? Now I know you might say everyone would automatically have pulled the slide after loading a new clip, but do they? At the gun range they might because they’re getting ready to shoot right away, but in this situation where he’s distracted, maybe not?
If he works the slide it chambers a round.
If he chambers a round, it leaves the clip with one cartridge fewer than it holds when completely full, if he started with the clip full.
That means, in order to wind up with the number of rounds that were still in his gun after the police took possession of it, he would have to eject the clip and load another bullet in it, and put it back in the gun, in the dark and the rain.
That banging is him trying to get his big flashlight to work.
Anyone who’s ever owned a 2 AA cell MagLite knows exactly what I’m talking about.
The only way that makes sense to carry that gun for self defense, from dogs or people or whatever, is to have a round chambered and a full clip, so that you only have to draw it from the holster and pull the trigger.
Otherwise, the fate you’re trying to avoid befalls you while you’re screwing around trying to chamber that first round.
If Zimmerman did anything he shouldn’t have, it’s still possible for him to have done so without it playing out like a TV drama with a bunch of slide working and hammer cocking and a crazed look of bloodlust in his eyes as the image freezes on the screen and they go to a commercial break.
@Unitron, Ah, I remember the thing about the number of bullets in the gun now. Thanks. Makes sense and that’s hard evidence you can’t refute. Just for reference, here’s a sound effect clip of a clicking flashlight although not the same flashlight.
Ah heck, there’s a million things that sound like those clicks. Maybe GZ was gonna write TM a note…..
Maybe he was going to write a note……
I like that you put that clip of a pen click, that was good.
: ^ )
I think I replied in the wrong comment box, about the pen should be for WSI
Its been a long week. I’m tired.
“If he works the slide it chambers a round.”
So you’re right, the gun was fully loaded, and it would be ridiculous to think that GZ would have slid another bullet in there in the dark. But as Amsterdam alluded to, in this situation, what if he “worked the slide” out of nervous fear? Ok that may sound irrational for him to pull on the slide knowing it was already fully loaded, but his thought process at that point was not really rational anyway. (By the way, what happens when you “work the slide” after the round was already in the chamber? Do you get the same sounds? It’s not like the gun would go off, right?)
The thought that he had a gun outside of his pants at that moment isn’t unthinkable, and it doesn’t necessarily mean he had the intention to go shoot the kid at that moment. I think few people think he had the expressed intention of killing at that time. That would have been a murder 1 charge. Many people however on both sides of this fence feel that GZ was “afraid” but the degree of it depends on how you look at it. At the moment we hear the clicking sounds, was he “afraid'” for his life? No. But he didn’t want to give out his address, thinking TM might be in earshot, so he was being cautious. Was he at least “afraid” that this “asshole” might get away? Quite possibly. We do not have to view it as a B-movie scene, just listening to the NEN call, we can hear/sense his nervousness while tapping on the flashlight.
Stupid move #1: Following and staring at a teenager in a car on a dark rainy night.
Stupid move #2: Getting out of the truck (whether to follow/get an address *ahem* /keep visual on suspect)
Not a stretch that stupid move #3 is playing with his gun in public.
But in the end, that part doesn’t matter really. I think it matters a lot more to know if TM saw the gun at the first encounter or if it appeared sooner in the altercation than GZ said it did.
You wrote exactly what I ws thinking, thank you.
@unitron, its nice to have you back.
I thought the magazine still had six rounds in it. But when I checked the photos of the magazine and the report, there was one loose cartridge and 5 in the magazine.
I didn’t read the conversation about the subject, so maybe I am missing something.
Checked the evidence photos again. Six bullets in the magazine, but the magazine has a magazine extender on it. That means it can hold 8 bullets.
Page 20 of the OCR’ed 184 page PDF, which you may have encountered as a 183 page, non-OCR’ed PDF, is page 2 of 7 of a report prepared by Leon H Ciesla.
“On 03/05/12 I was asked to check the round count for the recovered firearm. I examined the crime scene photos and our cafe report and determined that:
Recovered at the scene were:
6 live rounds in the magazine
1 loose live round when cleared that had been in the chamber
1 spent casing
Kel-Tec PF-9 round count
All rounds are accounted for if the firearm was fully loaded at the time of the shooting.
Fully loaded the Kel-Tec PF-9 is 7+1, seven rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber.”
Quit trying to hear a movie sound effects track that isn’t there.
No need to get obnoxious. You don’t have the definitive answer as to what exactly happened that night. Not everybody carries that gun with a bullet in the chamber and he had plenty of time and in his warped mind “reason” to be prepared. I’ve been watching hours of videos by gun nuts, giving their opinion about this particular gun. This gun, according to many, is a cheap piece of shit, with problems with ejection, extraction and feeding. I can think of a couple of reasons why GZ was fooling around with his gun while he was feeling safe and had the intention of going after Trayvon. Your insight is valuable and worthy of consideration, but that sounds like a gun is being racked so I think it is worthy of consideration too.
I isolated the sound which may be where he chambers a round and isolated the sound of a youtube clip of the sound of a round put in the chamber of a kel tec pf9.
I think you can’t discount the possibility, but judge for your self.
Didn’t accept the embed code.
Here is the link http://soundcloud.com/mirrw/loading-gun
Loading gun by Mirrw
Police found all ammo in the magazine except the one GZ fired on TM. That alone suggests GZ did not cock his gun.
I would suggest something less spectacular: The racking noise is GZ trying to turn on his flashlight. It is just the click from his flashlight. Nevertheless, the rapid repetitive noise shows one more time how anxious GZ was.
I think it makes sense that it is just the flashlight click that we can hear. Indeed, GZ reached the T where he last saw TM. It is mostly dark but he probably believes his suspect is hiding so he pulls his flashlight and tries to turn it on. Unfortunately for him that flashlight would not turn on or would not stay on properly. So, GZ immediately starts banging it. The sequence looks logical to me.
In one interview, Serino stated that the flashligh in facts works but needs to be handled in a specific way to make it switch (I don’t remember how). My point is that GZ was too much in rage to make it work. Hence the rapid clicking and the recurring tapping.
That said it is possible that Serino failed seeing that the flashlight is in fact not working properly. It may be turning on but then would not hold it. That could explain the tapping. In any case, if GZ stopped clicking his flashlight and started tapping on it suggests that he expected it on.
Finally, the duration of the recurring tapping is an indication of how long GZ was inspecting the darkness. This is therefore something we can use to confront his story.
I’ve been watching a load of videos about the kel tec pf9. The gun appears to have some problems. The gun has no safety features. You can’t tell if a bullet is in the chamber unless you slide it open. I think the first noise you hear could be GZ checking to see if a bullet was in the chamber. The recoil mechanisme after a shot is fired, loads the next bullet. If all six bullets were in the magazine, the gun must have malfunctioned, otherwise one bullet would have been automatcally loaded in the chamber immediately after the shot was fired and only 5 bullets would have remained in the magazine. So either the gun rejected to feed the next bullet, which could be a reason for GZ to check the chamber, or what seems to be a more common problem with this gun, it failed to eject the casing and GZ had to manually remove the casing.
Another interesting thing about this gun; it has a pretty bad kick-back, especially if it is fired with one hand and that hand is not the dominant one.
I was checking some videos on how bad the gun is. Don’t know if you seen this one. This one did some doozies.
Yes, I saw that one. It is a piece of junk. I wish it had failed when he shot Trayvon.
Unitron’s argument is that 7 rounds were recovered. One magazine can contain 7 rounds max. In order for 7 rounds to remain after GZ fired one shot, it means that GZ had chambered one round, removed the magazine and added another round.
That is a valid argument. But it only shows the status of the gun at the time it was taken into custody. Unitron argues that this is definitive proof that 7 minutes earlier the gun contained those 7 rounds + 1, therefore GZ had no reason to rack his gun therefore the sound we hear can’t be the sound of the racking of the gun.
I can think of many scenarios. Mr. Knucklebandaids on his booboos didn’t like the idea of having a round in the chamber of this piece of crap in the cheapest holster stuck inside his waistband pointed at his ass, and he racked his gun during the nen call and added a new round to the magazine. Or he had a full clip and a round in the chamber but he wanted to check how many rounds he had or make sure a round was in the chamber. Or the sound we hear is not the sound of the racking of his gun.
I’m sure I missed a bunch of other options. Good evidence can pursuade me that the sound we hear is not GZ working the slide of his gun. But at this time that is what I hear.
Sorry for the late reply, but yes Unitron does provide a valid argument, but I as well hear him racking that gun on the NEN. Given the whole context of the entire call, it is very plausible that he indeed checked his weapon while on the phone. I also hear on that call after he racked the gun, he says “Shit Gun”. I truly believe he said that. Considering the cheap quality of the gun and various people complaining about that particular gun. It wouldn’t be unheard of for a person to say. IIRC, Whonoze checked that out, and couldn’t conclude either way what was said because the operator was speaking. I know what I heard, I wasn’t even looking for it at the time, I was just listening for that racking sound. IIRC. It was months ago when Whonoze checked for that. Sometimes its better to hear the whole call not just a segment. Its like when you don’ know a word, and you ask for it to be used in a sentence. That’s how I listen to the call, if that makes any sense to you.
The picture of the bloody back of his head shows a cell phone held up to his right ear, and there’s no mention of a wireless earpiece for said phone in any of the reports so that means that he was holding the phone while talking to the dispatcher while he used his other two hands to work the gun and the clip and the extra round, presumably while holding the flashlight in his fourth hand.
There is a 2 minute time gap between the end of the call and the confrontation. You and I don’t know what GZ did in those minutes. GZ drove his car, made a uturn, started driving again, stopped his car, jumped out of his car, ran, fiddled around with what we presume is his flashlight, while continuously talking to the dispatcher. I think we can say with confidence that he appears to be quite proficient in handeling his phone while being occupied with other tasks. A car can be seen driving west on TTL seconds after GZ got off the phone. It is not impossible that after GZ ended the nen call, he got in his car and was driving on RVC on the other side of the cut-through when he spotted Trayvon again. I am not saying that happened, but there is no evidence to exclude that as a possibility. It is also possible he was in or near his car before he saw Trayvon again. He may have gotten another magazine from his car.
The police report doesn’t say anything about items GZ was carrying on his person, other than his gun, holster and carrying permit.
None of this proofs that GZ changed the magazine or added an extra bullet, but to state that that could not have happened, is an opinion not based on facts.
Again your opinion is valuable but not infallible.
@ Amsterdam: I remember reading that when the police finally searched GZ’s car, they did find extra magazines of ammo in it- I believew the article was in the LA Times- I will look around for it
People are hearing him get the gun out and work the slide because it sounds all sinister and fore-shadowy, but it’s just some guy in the dark and the rain who can’t get his flashlight to work.
According to everything I’ve read about and from people knowledgeable about that gun, it’s common practice to carry it ready to shoot as soon as you pull the trigger and as fully loaded as is possible.
Due to the hammer block safety, it only fires if the trigger is pulled.
If you’re carrying it for self defense and plan to use it, if necessary, in self defense as a firearm and not a club or a substitute for a roll of quarters in your fist, it makes sense to carry it no other way.
Thanks. I’ve read what was found in his car when he showed up to be taken into custody. That car was a control and command center.
It doesn’t proof that he went back to his car and got another magazine, but it can’t be excluded as a possibillity.
If you warch the videos about the gun, one of the many problems this gun has is that magazine would fall out/eject when the gun was being handled. Maybe that is what happened when he racked the gun, and he didn’t want to risk a failure like that. Of course this is speculation, but I think making a judgement about the state of that gun when we can hear that sound, based on the state of that same gun 6 minutes later, is also speculation.
That was a rented CAR he was driving AFTER he and his family started receiving death threats, not the TRUCK he was supposedly driving the night of the shooting.
So what? I’ve driven company cars most of my life. I would just move my stuff from one car to the next. You don’t change your habits just because you start driving a different car. That is my personal experience and what I’ve seen from my collegues, who had to change cars as often as I did.
Yeah, but if you start getting death threats against yourself and your family you probably will change habits if you think they’re for real.
What he had in that rental car doesn’t prove anything about what he had in his truck than it proves where he parked the truck or which direction it was pointed.
As to how Zimmerman wound up shooting Martin, never attribute to malevolence that which can be explained by incompetence.
Go check the youtube videos and blogs about this gun. You will find people on both sides. People who will tell you you should always carry the gun with a bullet in the chamber, and people who would tell you to never carry the gun that way. It is like reading a pro or anti Zimmerman blog. There is no consensus.
This gun doesn’t need cocking. You load the magazine with bullets, put it in the gun, rack the gun which will load the first bullet. The rest of the bullets are loaded automatcally after each shot. Gun fanatics like GZ would have a full magazine and 1 bullet loaded. But I would also expect him to check if the gun was ready to go, especially since he had the time to do so, and he may have experienced problems with his gun on the shooting range.
That’s an interesting point. Thanks again Amsterdam
I checked the photos again. One bullet was loose, so that one probably came out of the gun, 6 rounds in the magazine. The magazine has an extender on it, which means one round was missing from the magazine. So no reason to believe the gun did not eject the casing.
here is animation of how the gun works I recommend you view on mute
Are you talking about the elderly person living 3-4 doors north of W19?
If that’s the case then either that person was living in the empty house between JonW13’s and the 2 bahadoor sisters’, or she is referring to JonW13’s father in law who still seems to have his address at Jon’s.
Manalo’s townhouse is owned by Jonathan, his wife and [one of] her sister[s]. Their address is also used by many members of W12’s family including her father.
Yes, thank you for the clarification. I was just wondering about witness 19. To have mentioned that she thought he, the elderly man was having a heart attack, bothered me because even though she thought it was him having a heart attack. she didn’t mention that in her 911 call. I find it odd that she would say that in her interview with Serino. My next thought was, OK you thought it was the old man having trouble, but yet you still did not offer aid or call 911 and say Hey I think my neighbor is having a heart attack. Odd, I find that very odd.
Anyway thanks, Tchoupi. Greatly appreciate the information.
Actually, W19 is referring about an elderly person living 3 doors north of hers during her 911 call. This was on information I used to locate her address before September’s discovery.
From my failing memory, she stated in her call that she initially believed that the old man had trouble but then she realized something else was occurring.
I stand corrected, she did mentioned an elderly man in her 911 call.
on November 23, 2012 at 11:42 am said:
“Residents of RATL have allegedly reported he creeped people out by driving around surveiling the neighborhood, sometimes with his lights off.”
Do you have a link to where this alleged claim is mentioned in the discovery or from a legitimate news source? I have seen this mentioned by commenters and bloggers, but have never seen a source cited.
When I search for media comments from neighborhood residents, I only find quotes like this:
Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.
“Let’s talk about the elephant in the room. I’m black, OK?” the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. “There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood,” she said. “That’s why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin.”
Read more: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-childhood-photos-new-information#ixzz2D4zumcCx
Or video interviews like this.
Neighbor Speaks Out In Defence Of George Zimmerman
@james F: not that hard to find- whonoze virtually QUOTING artcles repeating witness statements from residents of RATL: “However, a neighbor who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood where Zimmerman lived and the shooting happened, told the FBI she would see Zimmerman drive around the neighborhood with his car lights off, and saw him check the walkways with a flashlight late at night, the report said.” published at http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/More-George-Zimmerman-Case-Documents-to-Be-Released-162190305.html
I don’t see any mention of anyone being ‘creeped out’ in that story.
It is already well established that Zimmerman patrolled the neighborhood in his car and on foot, and sometimes, when it was dark he even used… a flashlight (gasp!) That is just typical nhw activity.
I would daresay patrolling in a car with the lights off is creepy, whether that report says it outright or not. It’s not only unsafe but what would anybody think if they had children in the neighborhood? Even police and official security personnel do not drive with lights off. And despite what GZ claimed when he said he knew all the residents, he didn’t. But young black boys that did know him did report being uncomfortable with his patrols. This was reported in the Sentinel.
Is it possible that the black young man quoted in that article is also the suspect mentioned in the FBI interview of the neighbor who mentioned Zimmerman patrolling?
If it is the same guy, he quite possibly holds a grudge against Zimmerman.
No, my guess is the suspect in that report was Emmanuel Burgess who was arrested for burglary. At the time of the FBI report, he probably hadn’t been convicted yet so I guess he was still considered a “suspect”. (I believe Burgess was convicted and sentenced but I don’t have a link for that). GZ later claimed he was the same person he saw by Taaffe’s house and called NEN about, but his description of the man on the NEN call didn’t really seem to fit right. For example, he called that man a “gentleman” who he’d seen there picking up trash before wearing a bomber hat and pajama pants. Burgess was a 18 years old, who I wouldn’t imagine would be picking up trash, but that’s just my thoughts.
In any case, It is apparent that there were many “suspects” in the neighborhood, including Trayvon Martin, labeled as such by George Zimmerman. No one has ever corroborated that anyone that he saw/reported on was actually a burglar or attempting to burglarize anything.
He is quoted again in a NY Times article.
A 17-year-old African-American, Teontae Amie, who lives at the Retreat, recalled that Mr. Zimmerman once wrongly accused his friend of stealing a bike. “When you see him, you think automatically that he might try something,” said Teontae, who added that he kept his distance from the neighborhood watch coordinator.
Kept his distance? This contradicts his statement in the Sentinel article where he claims he and his friend would sit at the end of the driveway and ‘greet’ George.
“When you see him, you think automatically that he might try something?” Like what exactly? This guy, Teontae, obviously has an axe to grind.
@james F: how do any of the neighbor comments you are talking about tend to explain why Geo rge zimmerman shot an unarmed minor, and how do any of these comments tend to prove or disprove self defense? .Also, I truly didnt sense that Loree was implying any race issue by citing to the hose incident, so why would you? I think everyone reading your comments is struggling to understand your point, if any. Everyone is being polite, but it’s kind of annoying- this of course is jmo. if you are concerned with the word “creepy”- it’s subjective- some people find it creepy, but again, doesnt prove/disprove self defense, and doesnt explain why GZ shot an un-armed minor.
Thank you bgesq. You would be correct on your senses.
It is not typical NW activity, NW has no patrol duties, that’s another program entirely. The NW’ers authorized to patrol are given a marked car and wear uniforms. GZ’s NW does not include authorized patrols.
That’s probably why he drives with his lights off, since he knows so much about the RATL cctv’s. He couldn’t do it that night because it would conflict with his claim of being on his way to the store.
page 111 of 284 discovery dump 2
A regular poster caught that some time ago,here is the link ….
Thanks for the cite. I did not get the impression that she thought Zimmerman was creepy or acted inappropriately. She went on to say that she no longer felt safe due to the recent string of burglaries. She was particularly concerned about a nearby neighbor who was a suspect.
Given that context, it is more likely she appreciated having a concerned neighborhood watch person keeping an eye on the neighborhood.
James… Do you have a point? I’m not trying to be rude, but I don’t see where you’re going with this. Some neighbors appreciating GZ isn’t a defense… If you are correcting for the sake of accuracy then by all means correct away… Some neighbors appreciated GZ, and others did not…
It’s pretty creepy, IMO, when someone drives around with their lights off and goes between houses flashing a flashlight. I have called the cops at least a few times after witnessing this very same behavior in my neighborhood.
Here is the whole article QETNO its 7pgs
Whether or not anyone was or wasn’t creeped out by George’s patrols has nothing to do with my argument. Since bgseq was so kind as to supply a cite, I herewith amend my previous comment:
““Residents of RATL reported Zimmerman would drive around surveiling the neighborhood, sometimes with his lights off.”
The point being, he was not going shopping. He was looking for “assholes,” came across an innocent kid, profiled him, pursued him, and shot him dead. He then concocted a cock-and-bull story about the incident that is contradicted by the physical evidence on virtually every count.
That’s one janky looking heart, LOL.
Excerpt copied from a NY times article
George would stick up for a chubby boy in the neighborhood who was being bullied, recalled Austin (who, like Stephanie, asked that his last name not be used). “And if George saw bullies walking by his house, he would pull out his hose and spray them down and tell them they were wasting their time and to go and do something else.”
The reason for me copying this portion of this article is this:
First off, if some adult male sprayed my child with a hose because he may or may have thought those kids were up to no good or a bully, I would of took that hose and soaked and or beat him with it. Who the fuck does GZ think he is? Do you see that he used the same tactics when police officers used hoses against blacks. It also says something about him walking or patrolling in a vehicle late at night with or without his lights on, or walking with a flashlight. He is neither a security guard nor a police man. NW is watch listen and report. So yes it is creepy. That says something about his f**ing depraved mind. IMO
Was this a regular occurrence, or a one time event where this kid was being bullied while mowing Zimmerman’s lawn? Did these bullies just stand there and wait for George to unwind the hose, turn on the water and spray them or was Zimmerman already using the hose to water his property and pointed it in their direction after they verbally assaulted or threatened the kid in George’s yard?
Either way, it certainly does not warrant the violent assault response that you advocate. If the bullies’ parents were that concerned, they could have called the police.
“It seemed in character. A 16-year-old boy named Austin, who for a long time has mowed the lawn at the Zimmerman home in Lake Mary, described George Zimmerman as a role model for younger boys, often providing advice while throwing a football around or shooting hoops.
George would stick up for a chubby boy in the neighborhood who was being bullied, recalled Austin (who, like Stephanie, asked that his last name not be used). “And if George saw bullies walking by his house, he would pull out his hose and spray them down and tell them they were wasting their time and to go and do something else.”
Mr. Zimmerman was also security-minded, Austin said. “He would knock on people’s doors at night and say that it was late and that ‘You better close your garage door.’ ”
It should also be noted that the article does not mention the race of the bullies or their victim, yet you assumed the bullies are black. That says more about your prejudice than anything.
I knew you would miss my point. Let me see if I can clarify for you. The point I was making, that no adult in my view is going to put his hands or spray a water hose on one of my own. You are asking for trouble either way from me. In no way shape or form did I say write or say anything about the race of the kids or assume race, in my post, as you did. All I wrote was a similar “Tactic” was used against blacks.
And if I left my garage open so what, I don’t need GZ telling me to close it. It’s my garage I can leave it open all night if I want to. Since you included the rest of the article I figure I would address that too.
Latest by LLMPapa…
LMAO! LMMpapa is so out of touch, he thinks “homie” was an early seventies thing. Try the eighties, homie. And of course, todays youth popular culture would never bring back a retro word like ‘homie’, or would they…
Chris Rene – Young Homie
Lil Wayne – My Homies Still Lyrics
Yeah my homies still
My homies still
Yeah my homies still
Don’t make my goons go stupid
Go stupid, go stupid, yeah
Don’t make my goons go stupid
Go stupid, go stupid, yeah
Rocket Man by LLMPapa,
80s? Try 90s.
George wasn’t Trayvon’s homie, so unlikely choice of words, but again…
Did you have a point?
My point is obvious. ‘Homie’ is popular with today’s youth pop culture, particularly Lil Wayne who was one of Trayon’s favorites. What is your point? 😆
Lol, you’re amusing.
OMG!! The State better drop the case! The use of the word homie proves something about the night of 2/26! Definitely!
Hey, y’all, did you hear?! George said Trayvon said the word homie…other people still say the word…so this must mean George is telling the truth about everything else! Holy shit, son, you just cracked the case! I’m a little perplexed, though, when did George become Trayvon’s homie?
When you wanna debate some real shit about this case, you let me know. Coming here talking about some of George’s neighbors liked him and the usage of the word homie like it means shit to any of us in regards to 2/26. James F. Baby, where the F stands for FULL OF SHIT. Clearly, I like some Lil Wayne myself. 😛
The issue isn’t whether he said “homie” so much as how GZ is telling this story. He only used that word in the initial interview I think, before he knew who TM was and he thought that a narrative about a black boy from the “hood” would fly. He later backed away from that and never used that word again when telling the story. But you can imagine that’s how he told the story to his family and exaggerated even moreso. It was telling that both his father and brother have relayed various versions of the story including phrases like “this is gonna be easy” “you got a piece” “you’re gonna die tonight, MF” Why tonight? Did the “homies” have a long running feud in the “hood” that this is the final showdown and one of them is going to go down “tonight”?
Ironically, if GZ had shut up or just said, “I didn’t know who he was, he didn’t know who I was. We got into a fight and we struggled for the gun”. That would be believable, wouldn’t necessary get him off scot-free but at least believable. Now his effort to paint TM into a bad boy thug is laughable, and how is it that anyone can believe that TM was hell-bent on killing GZ that night for no reason whatsoever?
We read, listen and watch real evidence here. Maybe you should listen to w11 statements, she said she heard ” what are you doing”. That matches what DD heard.
question everything trust no one
on November 24, 2012 at 1:51 am said:
Lol, you’re amusing.
OMG!! The State better drop the case! The use of the word homie proves something about the night of 2/26! Definitely!
Hey, y’all, did you hear?! George said Trayvon said the word homie…other people still say the word…so this must mean George is telling the truth about everything else! Holy shit, son, you just cracked the case! I’m a little perplexed, though, when did George become Trayvon’s homie?
wow. you fail at logic.
I never said the state should drop the case because of ‘homey’.
I never said it proved at George is telling the truth about everything else.
I never claimed to have cracked the case.
I argued against the specific point, that ‘homie’ could not have possibly been in Martin’s vocabulary. As for your point about George and Martin not actually being homies, sometimes term’s of endearment are use ironically during fights and debates, homie. Like when you just stated ” Holy shit, son”, homie.
See, you are not actually my homie, son. And I am not actually your son, homie. Get it now?
Yep, QETNO was being sarcastic and called you “son”. A big bad mean thug with his own “homies” backing him up might stand up to the lone ranger and say “hey homie, what’s with the get-up?” Thing is, we just don’t see Trayvon calling George “homie” in this situation, when he told his friend on the phone that a crazy creepy guy was watching and following him in a car. Doesn’t really seem to be the time to be ironic or sarcastic.
Counter petition up: http://wh.gov/IXcy
Spread the word, let’s let them see what a real petition can do.
Oh, James… It’s pretty worthless for us to debate with each other, isn’t it?
“When much dispute has past, We find our tenets just the same as last.” —- Alexander Pope
Why, hello, WSI…fancy seeing you today! 😀
Hey QETNO, fancy seein’ you too! I thought my post above about RZ’s comment would surely have elicited one of your spirited responses!
Haha, I read RZ’s comments. I’m sure I would have had a spirited response after reading, if I hadn’t been too busy laughing.
As for “homie,” I just find it rather irrelevant to 2/26. Irrelevant and improbable. Aside from improbable, the witnesses statements just don’t support George’s story of how the two came into contact after TM ran, walked, skipped. W11 heard the same thing W8 heard, which was not what George said happened, but for some reason I’m suppose to believe otherwise… Yeeeah, not gonna happen. Now, that would surely be a logic fail to just take George’s word even though witness statements don’t corroborate him in terms of what words were spoken or how they were spoken. Lord have mercy, lol.
We haven’t had to even touch why TM phone is not down at the Tee.
If the encounter had started there, then TM’s phone should also be there because he lost it at the “start” of the altercation. GZ’s story, therefore, requires that TM pick up his phone and run back south again. That, in turn would mean that GZ catches him at that location and kills him there.
GZ needs yet another version to draw the puss from this evidence.
“Either way, it certainly does not warrant the violent assault response that you advocate. If the bullies’ parents were that concerned, they could have called the police”
Perhaps dousing him with water back or giving him a whack with the hose may not be the “right thing” to teach kids, but then you wouldn’t wanna mess with Loree’s mother lion instincts….LOL! Perhaps GZ should have first talked to the parents first like normal adults would? Now I wonder what Trayvon did that warranted being followed by a man with a gun and getting shot? Why did GZ not simply roll down his window and asked “Hey what’s up? Bad weather huh? You live around here? I haven’t seen you before.”. Can you please answer that James?
I will tell you a incident that happened with my son’s best friend, who I kind of adopted as my own. It was the middle of winter in PA. I was spending some time with his daughter, and he came to pick her up, but he had left some of her things at his mother’s house. She lived right around the corner from me. He didn’t put on his coat, he just ran to her house, because the child’s mother was on her way to pick her up. So he runs to her house without his coat to go get her things. A few minutes later I get a call that the police have him against a police car. I go outside, and sure enough they have him against the police car about two doors down. I am telling the cops that is my son, he just left my house from right there. Now I am not nice about the tone by the way. This is the story they gave me, Mam he fits the description of a person that we are looking for and he was running. I told them you idiot, he is my son and the reason he was running is because he has no coat on and went to his mother’s house to get his daughters things. Or is that cute bag on his shoulders with ducks on it is the standard now for would be criminals. Now of course the cop is looking at me like I’m crazy because I just said he was my son. Why would he be coming from his mother’s house if I just said he is my son. I told them to let him go he didn’t do anything wrong, or does any young black male running fit all your descriptions. I am screaming this to them because I see my son ‘s arm twisted back behind him. I am by now at full tilt and screaming to them that they better let him go. By this time his mother Mary backed me up on everything and they let him go. One cop told me, Wow lady you are fierce, but I must say you put yourself in a dangerous position, I said why because I fought against something that was not right. You guys made a mistake, not me.
BTW, thanks for the compliment. This case brings alot of things to my mind, heart and experiences.
“Trayvon Martin is your son too”, Sabrina Martin.
Sorry that should read Fulton.
Wow, Loree, that’s a powerful story. Thank you for sharing. It’s so disheartening to know that kind of thing happens more often than people realize, because it doesn’t make the headlines. It makes me want to scream with you and mothers of all the young boys/men that have to look over their shoulders! Ok, here’s another image you put in my head!
Thanks, that was a great video, yep that’s me.
It doesn’t matter what race you are, or what your income is or what God you pray to. We are all striving for Justice. Plain and simple.
Anyone who thinks that not knowing where someone lives, gives them the right to shoot someone is a danger to society. GZ did not know where TM lived, only because he never asked! TM ran from GZ, because GZ made no effort to appear friendly, and TM was on foot and unarmed.
While GZ was in a truck and armed. He’s claiming that he could not get important information, or put TM at ease, because he was tongue tied.
That doesn’t comport well with all the talking he’s been doing since then.
I fully agree
Martin was not shot because George did not know where he lived. Martin was not shot because of wearing a hoodie, his race, skittles or acting suspicious and smoking weed.
Martin was shot because he was committing felony assault and his victim had no means of escape and feared imminent serious injury or death.
The Gospel According to George…
@James, you said “Martin was shot because he was committing felony assault and his victim had no means of escape and feared imminent serious injury or death.”
Other than the word of the defendant, what evidence is there that Trayvon Martin, the named victim in this legal case, initiated a felony assault? What is the motive for him to want to kill George Zimmerman? Is it not more plausible, Trayvon Martin was standing his ground, not wanting to lead a stranger following him through the neighborhood home to where a 13 year old was? Does George Zimmerman not have any responsibility for bringing a gun into the situation and for creating the situation in the first place because by his account, he digressed from his intent to go shopping? Come on James. I’m trying to be nice. Can you answer at least one of those questions?
WSI, why would you want a response? You know it’s going to be illogical.
@QETNO, I’ve been cooped up in this living room for months now. We don’t get treeper-like strays very often. Come on, mommy, I know I can’t keep him, but can’t I just play with him for a little bit? Throw him a bone, and see how much he can chew? Can’t I, can’t I, please, please please????
LOL!!! Ok, but just make sure he doesn’t shit all over the living room floor. You’re cleaning it up if he does! 😛
I totally get what you mean. It’s nice to have someone to debate. I get dizzy watching them run in circles chasing their tails, though.
As a side note, do you find it interesting the one witness places John closer to the body than John places himself? I may be mistaken, but I thought she placed him next to the body on the ground, yet he claims he was inside. I find that curious.
@QETNO, wait who what? Which witness said they saw John (Witness 6, not Witness 13 right?) “next to the body”? I thought somebody did say he was like out on his porch but I didn’t think it was right by the body.
I see you let her play with the poor thing, well as long it in the “living room”, I have a coupon for a free dog shampoo.
If I can’t get the dog poo outta the carpet, I’ll just call Osterman to come clean it up. Apparently, in his book, he said that he left Shellie waiting at the police station, while he came home to clean the carpet because Sondra was too sick to do it herself, and she didn’t want her overnight guests, GZ and SZ, to be horrified over dog vomit. Oh, and Osterman would be glad to walk him too, because he also helped Shellie walk her dogs too while she packed some bags before they had headed out to the police station.
That is so great that Osterman will walk the dog. Ohh boy do you think he will write a children’s book about how WSI found this stray and he helped shelter it and walk it and feed it. I think it will sell alot of copies on Amazon, with the Xmas Holiday.
@James F: all day long you have pretended to seek evidence to substantiate statements; yet now you pollute this blog with hesarsay that’s not only conclusory- it’s not supported by any evidence! For example, I never read/heard any evidence that indicated that on 2/26, Trayvon was smoking weed – yet you now state it as fact. As you were informed earlier today, this blog is dedcicated to research, and obtaining and piecing together real evidence. While everyone has been more than polite to you, you are a real distraction, and you are not contibuting anything to that end. In fact, if what you say actually is what George Zimmerman believes took place, he should take the stand and testify to those opinions under oath, subject to penalties of perjury, and see whether those opinions hold up, and seem credible, under,cross examination. But for you to spew it on this site, while not subject to cross exam, seems like a transparent attempt to prejudice potential jurors, and it’s cowardly to boot. It’s obvious that you are not truly interested in factual research, or, the facts at all, so it’s not clear why you would try to engage on this blog. As you’ve been asked so many times already- what is your point?
WSI, I think her witness # is W19. It was the woman with the dog. I don’t remember her exact words, but it seemed like she placed John closer than John placed himself. John, at one point, tried to place them by the sidewalk, but didn’t she place the person she saw in the grass next to his porch. It might have been a case of bad reporting, but from what I remember it made it seem like he went out to the end of the porch to talk to the person on the grass. Didn’t John try to say he just opened the screen and yelled out from his house?
Also, doesn’t John live in the second house, but doesn’t GZ point to the first house (in the reenactment) as the house where someone walked outside?
Also, during the reenactment, doesn’t he only mention that one person coming out during the altercation, but then in someone else’s account of what George told them, they say (I think it was MO) George told them that he called to three different people for help during the altercation.
Argghhh, I just listened to W19’s audiotape with Serino. That woman is on speed, I think. Talking a mile a minute without a breath. She did not describe seeing more than one figure on the ground, so maybe she was too far or didn’t watch long enough to see if there were two people wrestling. Yes, JohnW6 claimed to be inside but he may well have opened his door and leaned out or was a few steps out. I don’t think that matters. Yes, I think it was MO who said that GZ made eye contact with at least 3 neighbors but he may have used evidence reports to fill out his story. But Wait, are you suspecting that GZ made eye contact with Jeremy who lives in the first house closer to the T?
Hah, I don’t know where my brain is going. I think W19 is pretty nuts (didn’t she keep talking about an old man in her 911 call?), but I do think she is clear on where she saw the people. My problem is not exactly where John was, but rather I have a problem with the discrepancy in where the person/people on the ground were. I find it suspicious that John places them moving toward the sidewalk, not moving away, when TM’s body was clearly found closer to John’s porch than the sidewalk. What’s up with that? MO may have been filling in with info he learned from the investigation, but I may have to go back to the SH interview because I thought GZ mentioned he called for help to other people in that. Too much shit to remember, lol. As for pointing to W11’s and W20’s porch, that simply may be because he’s doesn’t want to acknowledge anything about where he actually was when Trayvon was shot, which was farther from where he stopped, but I just find it a bit weird. And I still can’t believe people believe GZ just innocently mistook where he and the body actually ended up when in that damn reenactment he kept looking over and back to the spot the whole fucking time.
I don’t think I know what my point is this time, heh.
How does Martin hit or hold onto, or smother GZ with his hands, while GZ is covered with his own blood, yet TM gets none of it on his hands? How does GZ get beaten at the T, yet TM’s phone and body are found 40 feet away? Do you suspect there might be something wrong with GZ’s story?
Because that’s not what the evidence shows, and remember, you are speaking for the survivor who has spoken for himself. While the evidence is speaking for the victim, who can’t tell us a thing.
“Martin was shot because he was committing felony assault and his victim had no means of escape and feared imminent serious injury or death”
Zimmerman was punched because he was stalking a child and his victim had no idea who or why and feared imminent serious injury or death.
and got shot for it
Damn, now I put two images in your head where both eat raw meat. 🙂
I’m batting a thousand, huh?
Ha!! Maybe it’s me, must be low on iron or something…. But seriously, in thinking about your comment earlier, GZ being a concerned citizen/helpful neighbor is one thing, but gosh darnit, hosing neighborhood kids and making them feel uneasy sitting in their own driveway does deserve a good smack upside the head literally or figuratively from someone until he learned to mind his own business!
Exactly, who’s bullying who now. When I read that article, I said is this guy crazy or what, who does that. Now summertime playing around with people you know, that’s one thing, but just outright hosing people down, WTF. If my kid came home wet and told me that some man wet him for no reason, I be out of that house in a split second bringing my kid with me to point him out. I would of gave him a talking to more like a a real harsh once over, that he never ever look or touch my kid with anything or there will be trouble. And even if and that’s a big if my kid did something, you still have no right to touch him or her with anything, you come to me first. End of story. People like GZ have to be put in check, because it will only get worse, case in point, Trayvon Martin.
You know I was thinking about that part of the article were he would knock on peoples door and tell the them it was late, they better close their garage door. I thought about it and I said to myself this is how this would of played out if it was my house.
GZ: Knock Knock
LB: Yes who is it?
GZ: Ummm, do you know its late and your garage is open.
LB: Opens door, Yeah ok so it is, my husband is working in there.
GZ: Ummmm ok I just wanted to let you know that it was open.
LB: Ok, I just told you my husband is in there.
GZ: Oh ok, well I want you to close it because its late.
LB: First off, its my garage and I don’t know who you are, but I will close it when I’m good and ready.
GZ: Well, I was just trying to be neighborly.
LB: good for you, now get off my property.
GZ: Well, there has been some break ins and I just want to
LB: HON, get in here please.
end of story.
In Virgina and Texas people practically live out of there garage, every garage door is open late. Its extremely hot in Texas. You have to get all the hot air out of there. Most women have there washer and dryer there. Most men hang out there because the other Frig with the beer is there.
This would be a neighbor across the street from you calling 911 (Warning: this is my attempt at humor after a trypophan laced turkey leftover dinner)
Neighbor: Hi, we’ve had one break-in and some thefts in the neighborhood, and there’s this real suspicious guy here.
911: Ok, is he white, black or hispanic?
Neighbor: He looks hispanic, but that’s not why he’s suspicious.
911: Of course not, now what’s he doing?
Neighbor: He was driving really slowly around the neighborhood with his lights off.
911: Ok, that is suspicious. Did you see which way he went?
Neighbor: He parked down the street, now he’s just walking up the street with a flashlight, shining it at all the houses.
911: What is he wearing?
Neighbor: A dark red and black jacket, blue jeans and boots. He’s across the street now, he’s just staring into my neighbor’s open garage. I don’t know what his deal is.
911: OK, where do you want to meet with the officer.
Neighbor (gives address)
911: We’ll make sure he calls you when he’s in the area.
Neighbor: Wait, now he’s going up to my neighbor’s house. You better get an officer out here right away.
911: Ok, he’s on his way. Is he doing something else?
Neighbor: I hear her yelling at him, she shut the door in his face.
911: Ok, just call us if he does anything else ok?
Neighbor: OK (end call).
A minute later the officer arrives:
Officer: What’s going on here?
GZ: She broke my nose, I feel like my head is going to explode.
Officer: Oh yeah? Ma’am, can you explain this?
Loree: His exploding head?
Officer: No, what happened before.
Loree: Yeah, it’s late at night and he’s at my house telling me I should close my garage door.
Officer: Ok, he claims you broke his nose.
Loree; Oh really? Where? I can’t see anything.
GZ: Right here (points to a perfectly normal nose).
Loree: Well praytell, how did I break it? I didn’t even touch you!
GZ: You slammed the door in my face. It’s a “closed fracture”
Loree: Well, let’s see, how is it that your face was inside the frame of my door anyhow? Were you trying to follow me inside?
GZ: No, my nose was just sticking in the same direction as you, I wasn’t following.
Officer: Ok, lady, you got a defense?
Loree: Yep, he shouldn’t have been standing on my ground.
Officer: Sir, what do you say to that?
GZ: Ummm….I got nothing.
OMG that is hysterical, we should take our act on the road. LMAO!!!!!!
That was a big problem for him, not minding his own business. Lookit, I have no problem with gun owners. I have no problem with NW. I have no problem with people being concerned for their property. What I have a problem is his history of calling the police wherever he lived about the most mundane things, his overly concern of young black males, his need to go patrolling in the dark, his history of assaults on police and women, sexually molestion, Twitter, facebbok, his lies over and over again that has been documented, all the evidence to date. To say on national TV he didn’t have one regret, to say it was all God’s plan, and we are suppose to believe that he didn’t commit murder.
It still amazes me how people can argue that he isn’t a murderer.
There are several people, named and unnamed, who’ve spoken to reporters about Zimmerman; the teenage Teontae Ami is just one of them, averring that he and a friend would hang at the end of “a” driveway and would greet Zimmerman, who would fail to return the greeting. Not worth questioning his credibility or whether he has an ‘agenda.’ It would hardly be surprising, moreover, that other neighbors may have noticed Zimmerman’s foot and car patrols, and may have thought them ‘creepy.’
All of this, however, is moot unless these people appear in court to testify for or against his behavior and character.
You should realize that performing patrols is neither required nor advised by Neighborhood Watch; but, then, if Zimmerman wanted a genuine, wide-scale NW, he wouldn’t have done such a lousy job as NW Coordinator. Instead, he seemed to be much more interested in being the lone ranger, protecting his ‘hood.
There were eight burglaries between July 2011 and March 2012. Only two of those eight had witnesses, both times claiming that a black male were involved. This black male was Emmanuel Burgess, who was arrested on February 7 for both incidents. A third burglary and theft was resolved with the arrest of Jabari Shelley in December 2011; the crime hadn’t been witnessed, but he was discovered to be involved by happenstance.
Eight burglaries in nine months (none in October and November 2011, none in January 2012), seven including theft, six of them involving private homes, and only two witnessed, both times of the same black male who was subsequently arrested, and a third for which another suspect was arrested. Five burglaries without witnesses to say that “black males” were suspects. What a crime wave! What an invasion!
BTW, “homie” is a term of affection towards those who are part of a circle of friends. Since Trayvon would not have used that word in the circumstances, Zimmerman was misappropriating the vernacular to make his point: That a juvenile that he pursed by vehicle and on foot, and who had run away from him, decided to turn around and attack him without reason, and maniacally assault him although at least one neighbor made his presence known – and all the while on the phone with his girlfriend.
No wonder Zimmerman dropped it after that first night.
@nemerinys, that’s a great clarification on the “crime wave” status of the neighborhood. Add to that, a couple of the incidents involved vandalism or theft at unoccupied homes in construction, and Jabari Shelley was a friend of the son of the person who placed the report of a theft of a play-station, correct?
In Leatherman’s blog, there was a discussion not long ago about the widely reported “shooting” that occurred in the prior year, but it was never clear what that “shooting” was. Someone is looking to get specific reports from the SPD via the freedom of information act to clarify, but in the meantime, that “shooting” was most likely the shooting of TM which was included in the raw report given to the media and they somehow just kept reporting it as if it was a separate incident.
On page 236 of 2nd Discovery, there is a tabled list of incidents at Retreat at Twin Lakes, provided by the Seminole Sheriff’s Office, between 13 March 2010 and 14 March 2012. The one “Negligent Manslaughter” noted is the shooting of Trayvon Martin. The cover letter from the Sheriff’s Office (page 235) is dated March 14 with no salutation, so I don’t know if Serino or FDLE asked for the information; but, with that date, it’s obvious it was long before Corey came out with the Murder 2 charge.
The list, BTW, seems to undercut the number of burglaries since I’ve counted nine between late January 2011 and early February 2012. The other incidents listed, particularly larceny and criminal mischief, were committed as part of the burglaries – they’re not separate incidents.
I am re-posting a comment by Malisha placed on the Leatherman blog today. She had requested and just got information directly from the Sanford Police Department regarding the crime reports at the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood in the year prior to the shooting of Trayvon Martin.
November 26, 2012 at 6:50 pm
Guess what, folks.
I looked at the info. sent to me by the SPD.
They told the Miami Herald there had been “eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting” in RTL in the year before Trayvon Martin was killed…well…no.
They sent a document to the Miami Herald that listed:
REPORT TYPE …………… Number
All other larceny – 2
Burglary – 8
Criminal mischief – 1
Dealing in stolen property 1
Information (?) 25
Larceny bike 2
Larceny motor vehicle 1 (it was recovered)
Miscellaneous crime 1
Missing persons 1
Negligent manslaughter 1
(THIS IS WHAT THEY CALLED
THE TRAYVON MARTIN CASE
ON MARCH 15, 2012)
Registered felon 1
Simple assault 3
Traffic accident 2
Uniform traffic citation 2
for a total of ………………… 51 crime reports
NOW, I asked for the reports. I see this:
January 2011 Chris Olivieri’s home broken into, glass broken, items stolen of value, including computers
March 2011 – Andrea Velez went to the bank with a friend and when she got home he came in and when he left she saw that $800 was missing from her purse; she called him; he admitted it, promised to pay back, did not.
April 2011 – Matthew Duncan’s car window was broken and door was opened around 1 – 2 a.m.
July 2011 – construction manager Chris Westhelle said a copper strip was stolen from an air conditioner installation
August 2011 – Shantie Williams’ car was stolen; it was recovered but it had $100 damage when they recovered it
August 2011 – Olivia Bertalan’s home was entered without permission; she was home and frightened, called 911; Emmanuel Burgess was arrested, pled guilty, has already been sentenced (no child reported, no rusty scissors reported, no participation or assistance from George Zimmerman reported in making arrest)
August 2011 – homeless man named Brian Darnell Bookhard stole a play-station from Andrea Velez (victim in March crime report, see above) and tried to sell stolen property; arrested, identified in line-up, no participation or assistance by George Zimmerman noted
September 2011 – construction manager Chris Westhelle reports stolen door and broken mirror
November 2011 – Edward Kinney reported his bicycle stolen from porch ($80 Roadmaster)
December 2011 – Juvenile arrested for theft of XBox; confessed; he had come into house through open window; this is arrest report, not crime report
December 2011 – property manager for Fannie Mae reports damage to “residence in repo” in that somebody caused the toilet to run, flooding the area and damaging carpet in unoccupied home
February 6, 2012 – Tatiana Deamicis’ house burglarized and two witnesses see suspect; witnesses are Arnold Jesse Arms III and Iain Jakkar Beard. Emmanuel Burgess’ cell phone confiscated because he was using it in attempt to sell stolen goods. Stolen laptop recovered.
Feb. 7, 2012 – Emmanuel Burgess arrested.
January 2012 – Iain Beard (witness in Feb. crime, see above) reports his silver bicycle stolen from “fenced area of clubhouse.” He suspects “Black male about 5’10″ about 220 pounds who lives in RTL” — not because he saw him with the bicycle or saw him take it, because he saw a footprint in the sand that was like that man’s shoe print.
Calls for service? J Blake sent the Miami Herald a list of 402 of them. Among the calls for service were:
Attempted suicide …. 1
Battery ………………… 1
Burglary ………………. 5
Disturbance ………… 58 (remember the cop saying that neighborhood was mostly “loud music”?)
Harrassing communications … 2
Hit & Run …… 1 (no police report?)
Missing persons …. 5 (only one became “report” — Trayvon)
Open door/window …. 4
Property damage …. 4
Prowler … 2
* * * * *
SHOOTING WITH INJURIES – 2 (uh oh, no police report on the second one???????????????????????)
Shots fired – 4 (only report being a call-in saying someone heard shots on 7/30/2011 and then saw a grey car and a person but does not know if the sound was associated with either the person or the car)
Suspicious incident/person … 50 (we know who THAT was)
Theft – 9 (only five, as it turns out)
Threat … 2
Trespass … 4
So my guess is that the stuff sent to Miami Herald was not exactly what the police reports show. “Calls” about all these possible crimes? Maybe. Police reports? No.
Especially peculiar that there is an indication of two calls about shootings with injuries. I can see that one was Trayvon Martin. The other was simply not true.
I am afraid this is just another example of the reality that shoddy record-keeping and imprecise journalism create feedback loops which mean that most documents, official of otherwise, simply cannot be relied on as definitive sources of facts.
Goodness gracious, the treeper’s favorite topic (TM’s cell phone) has finally spilled over into MSM, but imagine if you hadn’t followed this case in detail, would you really understand what the heck this Orlando Sentinel story is about?
Quote from the story **********
“The information downloaded by Brenton at the FDLE lab “tells me the last few phone calls, but that’s about it,” O’Mara said. “It looks like there is other information that I should have……….
………When questioned last month about Tracy Martin’s decision to withhold the phone’s PIN from authorities, family attorney Benjamin Crump said, “I don’t know anything about that. We’re going to do anything prosecutors say we should.”
Can we say GAG ORDER?!?!?!? Wait, prosecution tried that. Oh well. But, what information would he need other than the last few calls? He didn’t want his client’s irrelevant medical history of irritable bowel syndrome displayed in court. Fine, Tracy Martin wanted his son’s private information and communications kept private, especially from the SPD that bungled the investigation in the first place!! The phone was turned over to the FBI. End of story.
One word for O’Mara and all the little tree nuts…
From mother fucking day one, they were told, if you want Trayvon’s records then you subpoena that shit. That’s the proper method. PERIOD. Did they not get what they were hoping for from the school and social media records. *giggle* YOU GOT NOTHING! Keep digging, O’Mara. Have fun!! Let us know if anything turns up that isn’t con con con CONSPIRACY! Hey, O’Mara did you find those fake DeeDee’s and 4 or 5 phones? Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.
I found an video report from March 23 of RATL. I made screenshots of the mail area seen from RVC, and one from TTL.
I don’t think GZ could have seen Trayvon if he was driving towards the gate.
And here is the link to the video
That’s an excellent find Amsterdam. Way to go!! I had been scouring the net looking for a direct view of the front of the mailboxes and was always stumped why it hadn’t been filmed by the mainstream media. I guessed that people focused so much on GZ’s account of the front of the clubhouse (on RVC) and on the site of the shooting, that they just about ignored DeeDee’s mention of the mail boxes. So it’s interesting that in this news clip, the reporter points to the mailboxes (at 0:38) and says “it’s also here that George Zimmerman says that he first spotted someone suspicious.” We know that’s inaccurate since GZ actually claimed that he first spotted TM at Taaffe’s house. However, I think it shows at least that she was paying attention to DeeDee’s version and placed TM at the mailboxes. I agree that it would have been hard for GZ to see TM at the mailboxes if he was just casually driving on his way out the main gate. I’m still curious about how well-lit that mail area is at night.
“I don’t think GZ could have seen Trayvon if he was driving towards the gate.”
Careful, Amsterdam. The shots in the video from RVC are low angle and wide angle, emphasizing the tree and bush cover between RVC and mailboxes more than you might perceive moving past the area with the naked eye. If you want to say “I think it would have been quite difficult for GZ to see TM if he was driving toward the gate.” that’s a safer conclusion.
Note that the MSNBC video dates back to he point where the “pro-Trayvon” media was presenting an implicit narrative that GZ began following TM, never lost sight of him, apprehended him directly (mere seconds after leaving his truck) and then shot him dead, utterly failing to account for the end of GZ’s NEN call, or the time between the end of the NEN call and the gun shot as recorded by W11’s 911.
Not that this has anything to do do with the physical evidence it contains in forms of photos of the area, other than to suggest some assumptions that may lie behind different camera angles, editing patterns, voice-over commentary…
What is interesting to me is not so much how closed the view of the mailboxes are from RVC, but how open that view is from TTL, e.g. where Reid is standing. This is about where GZ would have been in the creep-by the mailboxes tchoupi’s light event chart indicates – or GZ might even have been a little closer. The two men must have gotten quite a good look at each other at that point.
Trayvon probably did look suspicious: suspicious of this strange bearded guy in a truck who was inching by him, with a crazy look on his face, giving him the evil eye.
Or was George looking at himself in the rear-view mirror? (Real suspicious guy, just driving around in the rain looking at all the houses, don’t know what his deal is, think he’s up to no good…)
I think it rules out the alternative version we’ve considered if we assume Trayvon was at the mail area long before GZ arrived. The version where he saw Trayvon while driving to the store doesn’t seem likely. It may have been possible if he was looking for him.
I think Joy-Ann Reid has done the best reporting on this case. She was the only one I know of, who was asking questions about how and where Zimmerman first noticed Trayvon. She wrote about the missing minutes and asked questions about how Zimmerman could’ve lost sight of Trayvon.
The fact is, if Trayvon was standing there while it was pouring rain, there was nothing suspicious about his behaviour.
GOOD JOB!!! Excellent shots! I will repost on Letherman’s blog. I am still waiting on Knechel’s video. But I have alot of patience. I know how difficult it will be for his videographer to do, but I know it will get done.
Thanks again for this great find.
You are correct, the mail shed is located far back behind the clubhouse, so there’s no view from in front of it. And the mailboxes are further east of the roadway leading out the front gate, so there’s no view into the mailboxes from that roadway either.
So GZ did not see Trayvon as he passed FT’s place, because he comes down RVC too late. He can’t see him as he’s supposed to be leaving RATL for his shopping trip, so that means there was no shopping trip planned. Instead GZ was out hunting. But how would he know that there was anyone to hunt for? He can’t see the front from his house. He has to be notified by someone, and he hasn’t said a word about who notified him. Why? There’s nothing criminal about notifiying GZ of a suspicious person, unless there’s something else that also has to remain hidden.
If there was a tip-off, then he’s protecting that person. Who would he be so tight-lipped about? I don’t believe for a minute it would be Taaffe since Taaffe had also played NW, as he would have called police himself or not at all. Also Taaffe wouldn’t put himself out there in the media if he had been involved. Now, I think it’s been debunked that Osterman was the man in the bank video. Granted he lives close enough that he doesn’t have to be placed at the bank. However, he also has since put himself out there in the media and wrote a book, so no. It was a stupid move, but I think he did genuinely do it to help his friend and not out of guilt for being involved. That leaves other neighborhood people who “might” have called him based on the flyer or cards he gave out. However, who was really nutty enough to think that TM was suspicious? At the 2 minute mark in this video, a resident who’s home was actually burglarized 3 weeks prior said that she just called 911 and they were there in 2 minutes. The police at least had a good record of response it seems so people are not likely to call the NW “captain” when 911 is easier and faster.
That only leaves one person I can think of. Shellie. She was his partner in identifying “suspicious” people in his earlier NEN calls, and his slip of the tongue in saying “my wife is….I was going shopping” on the re-enactment. She would be the only person I would think that he would try to protect. But is that certain? No, Osterman tried to make it a point in his book that Shellie was at her dad’s house I think when she got the call from a neighbor and that he met her at the front gate, and they pull into the crime scene together. With that, Osterman could also be trying to protect Shellie, but then again, GZ doesn’t need a tip-off as he really could have spotted TM at Taaffe’s, slowed down and watched TM walk around the corner. He then creeps up by the mailboxes, does a stare down with TM and gets on the phone with NEN. Either way, by his own testimony, TM was doing nothing wrong, not even walking up close to a house, so for him to follow TM from Taaffe’s house all the way to the top of the T, it’s a pursuit by any definition. The fact, he had lost sight of TM doesn’t mean he gets to reset the events and say, Oh, I was just walking back to my truck when I got assaulted for no reason.
So many things to speculate about…. frustrating isnt it? Thanks Amsterdam for finding that MSNBC news video from Al Sharpton’s show that included such a novel view of the mail kiosk. We’ve certainly not seen that before!
It’s possible Shellie saw TM on her way somewhere, and called GZ to tip him off, then arrived at her fathers or was on her way there when GZ got word to her there had been a killing.
I am of the belief that there was a tip off person, but I am not sure that the case for this can or will be presented in a convincing fashion to the jury. The chief proof at the moment is Dee Dee’s call and recollection of how that happened, and of course Tchoupis analysis of the car’s movements. Convincing me is not the same as convincing your average juror. The prosecution may not care to go out on that limb when they have other fish to fry, more convincing arguments to make that lead to a M2 conviction without having to present all this to a jury, and rely on that portion of Dee Dee’s story, either.
The prosecution can DESTROY GZ’s credibility using ONLY GZ’s words to the SPD and a map and a stopwatch, arguing that his movements make no sense and he’s covering up his real behavior regarding the movements from clubhouse area to cut thru vicinity. How can the defense rebut their own client’s word when he says the teen is near the clubhouse, etc.? He’s caught lying to investigators and that established a pattern he extended into the false narrative of what happened in the dark near John’s back yard.
Short version: Unarmed kid found shot dead by man pushing false narrative about how he came to be there. The rest of the case need only be circumstantial for a jury to find him guilty.
One has to wonder the state of GZ’s phone records, and why they aren’t in evidence already. The SPD had physical possession of his phone for a time. I’m not certain of what happened after that point however. Is there more known about this matter?
If GZ got a tipoff call there may be a record of who called him and when, but that by itself isn’t proof of much.
I do wonder if GZ called someone in the “missing minutes” as well. The interval of time seems about right for him to busy himself with a call, and then to walk back to the T from wherever and encounter the teen. Part of the fantasy GZ was playing out required him to have an audience. I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually learned he was on the phone that day as much as Dee Dee was.
pardon the dangling participle there at the end. just a typo
The SP and the defense will only duel with the facts they can prove, using circumstantial evidence to fill in the gaps. There’s no need for them to build and bridges using evidence that they cannot prove conclusively or that doesn’t lead anywhere. If the catch the notifier, and that person is, or has evidence of something more, then maybe they’ll bring that in if there’s circumstantial evidence they need to replace with hard fact.
Otherwise, most of what we have learned poring over the data of this case, will be “left on the cutting room floor” and never make it to trial. People watch a trial and see all the simple fact put on display, they don’t see the vast quantities of effort that went on behind the scenes to ferret out all those details. 20, 40, 100 hours of work may be represented in a trial by just one simple sentence or question.
I just find it funny that first it was that he and Shelley did their mentoring then they had prepared dinner together, and George and Shelley always did the shopping together on Sundays. Now, it is, Shelley wasn’t even home.
From the time GZ leaves home until he gets to the main gate is only some 45 seconds. No car comes up RVC in time to catch TM there by FT’s By the time GZ leaves the house, TM is already at the mailboxes. Otherwise, TM would have told DD he was being followed before he got to the mail shed. Remember GZ’s story not only included a need to stop by FT’s place to observe what he says he did, it also includes a 1 minute 20 second trip to the clubhouse, with GZ arriving and parking just 5 seconds head of TM. It’s a 15 second drive for GZ and a 1:20 walk for TM.
So that’s all a false narrative.
As far as who is GZ protecting we don’t know because GZ maintained tight secrecy about NW and just about everything else to do with it. Look at how much trouble we had to go through, just to learn for a fact, that GZ had to be notified. Someone like MO or perhaps even someone at the SPD might be involved, and therefore even better able to cover their tracks as well as intimidate GZ. All they’d have to tell GZ is that if he gives them up, they’ll identify him as an informer when he goes to jail. You don’t have to watch CSI to know what that would mean.
Nobody’s done anything wrong by tipping him off, to need protection.
GZ is protecting HIMSELF.
He cannot admit to any kind of tip-off. That would mean he WENT HUNTING ON PURPOSE. His “innocence” requires that he come across Trayvon accidentally while on an unrelated errand.
The tip-off would have been about someone starting to enter the street end of the shortcut. So that’s where he started to look. But the story of seeing Trayvon there is untrue, it is just a lengthy rehash of another time when he saw another person there.
Realising he missed the person existing the shortcut, he then drove up and down looking for him, as clearly shows by Tchoupi’s light analysis, showing the car drive along RVC past the TTL intersection, do a u-turn , drive through again, do another u-turn then go down TTL towards the mailboxes.
This is someone catching sight of someone at the mail boxes (while driving west on RVC) and having to turn again to to go down to the mail shed.
He covers his going down TTL by saying Trayvon walked past him and went that way, while he was parked at the clubhouse making the NEN call. The light analysis shows he was not parked there. But he needs to be there for Trayvon to be able to walk past him and down TTL, without admitting to having crawled along RVC behind him from the shortcut.
Which he didn’t do, as he missed catching him there, and didn’t see him at all until the mailboxes. Which was as a result of driving up and down looking for him. Which was as a result of having been tipped off. Which he can’t admit to without admitting to stalking. Which he can’t admit to while claiming he wasn’t the aggressor.
Shellie was at her father’s house??? which is where exactly? and she meets MO at the gate? that means 2 people 2 vehicles, how did they arrange for GZ’s SVU to be moved? and all this in the 10 minutes or so that GZ was still at the scene in the police car, for MO to be able to see him/talk to him?
And they just finished mentoring the kids. And they always go shopping together on Sunday nights. So what’s she doing at her father’s??
Just another story invented to cover why he’d be out alone, leaving his wife behind at home when they are meant to be going shopping. Shopping was his excuse for accidentally spotting Trayvon, but he had to be alone, to not have a witness in the car with him.
I do not go along with theories that Shellie was with him. She surely would have said something while he was on the NEN call. And could have backed him up on the suspicious behaviour, without being at all involved in the foot pursuit.
Also she was not in the vehicle when they were checking the tags, yet there’s no evidence of her being seen around the area on foot, either. So she got out while the tag-checking was going on, then got back in to drive it away? C’mon!!!!
If there was anything incriminating in the vehicle, she’d have driven it away immediately. I think they only took it to keep it safe, to not have it parked in a strange spot if he’s not going to be free to take it home himself, which at that stage they had no way of knowing, as he was being held by the police, possible under arrest.
@Aussie, I am also not fond of conspiracy theories, but I had only brought up Shellie as a possible candidate as a “tipster” IF there ever was one. That is to say, she could have been driving out and seen TM anywhere along the way and either came home to tell GZ, or drove off but called her husband to tell him about it. As I had noted in my previous post, it didn’t seem like anyone else but her would have called him. That’s all.
Of course Shellie would not have been in the car because as you say, we would have heard her as we did in previous NEN calls, and TM told DeeDee that a crazy white guy was staring at him, not a crazy white couple.
It was only in Osterman’s book that says that Shellie was at her father’s house when she got a call from a neighbor about the shooting, she then calls Osterman. I am with you in thinking that their moving the car was just because GZ was taken away, so they had to take it home. It’s more the fault of the police to either not pay attention or purposely let them do it because Osterman was a friendly face and they had already decided GZ was going to be let off the hook.
That’s a great finding Amsterdam. This msnbc report really brings the best views of the mailbox shed from various angles. It also gives new views on TTL and from TTL which we should take advantage of as much as possible.
I find the comment about how close the view on the mail shed from RVC quite interesting. From the report, it really looks like you have to drive all the way to the stop line to see what is on TTL. Yet, we have to be careful and consider the fact that the cameraman was on foot while GZ was sitting high in his big truck. We also have to consider the fact that when it happened, it was dark and therefore likely harder to see the mailboxes than what this report shows. There probably are lights at the mailboxes. Maybe streetlights are strong enough to illuminate the mailboxes too. So, lighting is an open question. In any cases, I can’t help thinking about the scenario I built from the security vids where GZ drives past the crossroad with TTL and comes back to the clubhouse. That scenario implies that GZ missed TM, or nearly missed him, when crossing TTL. He then had to turn back. So, the reduced visibility on the mail shed from RVC just adds water to that scenario.
The 2nd reason I find that report interesting is that it confirms the reenactment video showing not much possible ways GZ could have seen, from the clubhouse parking lot, TM walking behind the townhouse block north of TTL has he draw to Singleton on the night of the killing. Those small palm trees are just blocking the view.
The view of the mailbox from TTL shown at 1:05 is interesting too. It is taken from roughly halfway between the west and east curves. It shows a very reduced view of RVC. So, it reinforce the conclusion that W03 could not see any police car before it entered TTL. This is a key element in timing the clubhouse videos.
That view is also interesting as it may give a better understanding of where GZ could have parked after his u-turn on TTL to watch his suspect at the mailboxes.
Thanks again Amsterdam
Don’t forget we already know that the mailboxes can’t be seen while looking in the front gate south on TTL because they’re off to the east so far and there’s also vegetation. On that dark rainy night, GZ’s view of the mailboxes would be non-existent as he turned to go out the front gate. He’d have his passenger side window rolled up and rain speckled making it even harder to see out. With no reason to look to his right as he turned right to drive out on his way to the store.
Finally the fact that he goes straight around to TTL instead of out the front gate, proves TM was already in the mail shed, even if GZ didn’t see him, because when he turns back for another pass, that’s exactly where he finds him and parks. No stop near FT’s no parking at the clubhouse, just two passes and park on TTL, then the NEN call begins. Thus GZ left home less than 2 minutes before he makes his second pass at the mail shed.
I was referring to the scenario depicted there: http://i.imgur.com/6eLx7.png
In that scenario, GZ is not going straight to TTL but instead goes through the RVC/TTL junction only to come back driving slowly 1 minute later. He makes another uturn somewhere west to the clubhouse and then makes his turn south on TTL.
What made me think it was all GZ is:
1) This is a traffic peak in the histogram = a signal above the noise floor,
2) This signal starts and stops right about before GZ’s NEN call,
3) This event starts with a truck that could be a Honda Ridgeline caught on by the Kitchen camera,
4) The vehicle that comes back west on RVC is noticeably slower,
5) The vehicle that finally goes east on RVC to turn south on TTL is even slower and eventually stops by the mailboxes.
So, the point I was trying to make is that the obliterated view on the mailbox shed from RVC just reinforces the 1st part of the scenario where GZ would go straight through the RVC/TTL junction .
Whonoze explained it in a post he wrote on the 23rd (I believe) using a better English than I will ever be able to produce. GZ was probably looking for TM. He was not even trying to exit the complex. As he drove on RVC past the north gate, he just had a glance of TM at the mailboxes. My guess is that he was seriously searching looking in the direction of the TTL but could not see anything before really crossing the junction. Then he decided to check it out more seriously so he made a uturn and drove west on RVC, slowly through the same junction so he could confirm the presence of that suspicious teenager.
I got that, my concern is that he isn’t going shopping. All I need to know, for my purposes is that the shopping trip is yet another lie. Your work shows that he could also have avoided this situation he was working himself towards. TM, meanwhile is watching all of this action and concludes that he’s being followed. To me this means he’s actually trying to spook TM, he wants him to run into the darkened area, where he can operate better. Or could it be where he has favorable witnesses?
This thing about the obliterated view of the mailboxes from RVC may have more implications than I initially thought as it would suggest that the tipster, if there was one, must have driven by the mailboxes himself minutes before GZ arrives on scene. Another possibility is that the tipster may be living by the pool on TTL.
Assuming the tipster was driving, then he must have a light signature. There are not that many light events on EP video before GZ’s NEN call. I count 6.
Of the 6 I would exclude the last 2 as they happen only 1 minute before GZ’s truck is seen near the clubhouse. I mean, I would give the tipster at least 1 minute to think and contact GZ , I would give GZ 1 minute to get out to his truck and 45sec to drive to the clubhouse.
Of the remaining 4:
– the 1st one comes in by the north gate 10 minutes before GZ arrives at the clubhouse. Although it looks too early, it is late enough (6:57pm) to have seen TM as we know from DeeDee’s statement that he was already at the mailboxes at 6:54pm.
– the 2nd vehicle goes on TTL to the north gate 8 minutes before GZ arrives at the clubhouse. I can’t tell if he goes out thru the gate or turns right on RVC. For sure, that vehicle doesn’t make a left on RVC in the direction of GZ. If that’s the tipster, he would have probably called while driving.
– The 3rd & 4th vehicles enter the north gate together at about 7:00:39pm. They both go straight on TTL. The 2nd car has bigger headlights, it might be a truck.
Something may be interesting concerning the 3rd & 4th vehicles. Please have a look to Whonoze’s & the EP vids from 7:00:39pm & 7:01:29pm (14:03-14:53) and tell me what you think you see.
Now you’ve got me staring at those damn videos again. The only thing I’ve noticed is that the cars are just seconds behind each other when they enter the gate and it takes 50 sec for the lights to disappear from the ep. With the other cars except for GZ’s car, it only lasts about 10 sec.
About the two cars driving down TTL at 19:01 and 19:31, you see some indirect light in the gr vid but not headlights entering the gate. Do you think they were driving west on RVC?
I don’t think a tipster said anything about the mailboxes. The tip was for the shortcut. GZ got there too late. He drove along RVC trying to find the missing suspect, spotted movement at the mail shed while cruising RVC, turned back for a closer look, exactly as the light evidence shows.
Had the tip-off been “mail shed” he’d have gone directly there, not cruise around RVC in circles first.
I have been trying to work on a rough ‘bird’s-eye view’ animation showing the movements of GZ’s truck per your deductions. My animation skills are minimal, and I’m having trouble lining things up, so my little animated square of GZ’s truck is in the right place viz a viz the the light events visible in the two videos looking out onto RVC. I’m not really sure which light event is which. (I’m also fighting concentration problems in trying to work on it.) I’m wondering if you could help me by doing the following?:
Let’s just assume the time stamps on my work-in-progress vid of the security cams are correct.
Can you identify each light event that you think is GZ in each of the two videos by it’s clock time?
E.g. “7:xx:xx: lighter patch entering window in Kitchen camera is the beam of GZ’s lights heading East on RVC.” etc. etc.
(I have the timeline in the animation laid out with the clock time, and I haven’t been able to do the math with your chart timing things from the beginning of the sec-vids as 00:00. I’m also not sure whether the numbers on your map of his path are supposed to correspond to specific frames on the videos, or they’re just general locations.)
Let’s try this…
7:07:23: Bright light Kitchen vid. The right rear panel of GZ’s truck is seen seconds later. The vehicle is seen going straight to the RVC/TTL junction on the Game Room camera.
7:08:16: Bright light thru smaller window of the GR video. The shadow of the vehicle is seen seconds later thru the larger window (GR video).
7:08:31: Light event in Kitchen vid. It turns into a bright linear shape before disappearing. That one is not very obvious. My interpretation is that GZ is driving slowly and maneuvering his car to make a u-turn. I’d be happy to get other views?
7:08:44: Bright light event in Kitchen vid. The front right panel of the vehicle & its reflection on the ground is seen seconds later in the GR vid (larger window). The car is then seen in the EPH and then EP video.
BTW, I’m still working on a narration. Are you still interested?
Here’s what i have for a first draft of an introduction to set up the secvids and orient the viewer to what they’ll be seeing:
What you are looking at here is a grid of the views from four security cameras at the Clubhouse of The Retreat at Twin Lakes, the gated community in Sanford Florida where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin on February 26, 2012. These security videos were recorded that evening, starting before Martin’s encounter with Zimmerman, and ending after the arrival of the police. The clock-time recorded by the surveillance system was set incorrectly, but we have determined within a quite small margin of error when the recordings actually began. We have added the audio from George Zimmerman’s call to the Sanford police, and selections of audio from the 911 calls in response to the shooting (synched to the clock within a second), in addition to a bit of explanatory narration, in order to present an overall picture of the physical audio-video evidence of what occurred that evening.
Our findings are strikingly at odds with the version of events Zimmerman related to police investigators that evening, and in his walk-through ‘Re-enactment’ videotaped by the Sanford police the following day. Many of the elements of Zimmerman’s story are logically inconsistent within the time and space in which the events occurred. These manifold inconsistencies have been documented in other videos, and in numerous blog posts. We know that what Zimmerman said did NOT happen. This video attempts to show the limited number of things we can confidently say DID happen.
What the security videos show is very limited, and somewhat difficult to interpret. Essentially, they reveal only the movement of vehicles around the clubhouse. The cameras are low resolution, and equipped with wide-angle lenses, which mean they record very little detail of objects as far away as the street. They also record at a rate of only one video frame per second, so detail is restricted in time as well. What you CAN see in these recordings is what we have dubbed “light events”: the moments when a headlight beam or the actual lights of a vehicle pass through the frame, or when the pattern of stationary lights in the Pool video is interrupted by a vehicle passing through those light areas, or augmenting them with it’s headlight beams.
Here is a map of The Retreat showing the Clubhouse area. Retreat View Circle is the street running East-West on the North side of the Clubhouse. Twin Trees Lane is the street that runs South from the main gate, past the East side of the Clubhouse, and then makes a 90 degree turn to the East, with another 90 degree turn to the South a block further on.
The top two images in the grid show movements in front of the Clubhouse on Retreat View Circle. At the upper left is the image from the Kitchen security camera. It’s field of view looks like this on the map. At the upper right is the image from the Game Room camera. It’s field of view looks like this on the map. As you can see their fields of view cross in front of the Clubhouse. This means a vehicle travelling West to East down Retreat View would appear first in the Kitchen video, and then in the GameRoom video, like this [example].
The bottom two images in the grid show movements at the side of Clubhouse on Twin Trees Lane. At the lower left is the image from the East Hall camera. It’s field of view looks like this on the map. As you can see it has only a small opening to the street, to the right of the section of mailboxes visible beyond the building itself. At the lower right is the image from the Pool camera. It’s field of view looks like this on the map. It has a much wider view and is able to capture certain light events on Twin Trees after that street’s turn to the east, though they are confined to the upper left part of the frame and partially obscured by the other bright light sources in that area. A vehicle travelling North to South down Twin Trees would appear first in the East Hall video, and then in the Pool video, like this [example].
A note about these bright light spots in the Pool video. The brightest circle in the very upper left of the frame is a floodlight mounted on the same wall as the camera, towards the middle of the pool. It is providing the bright illumination you see on the deck chairs below it. being relatively close to the camera, it’s bright enough to blow out all detail, obscuring anything that may be behind it on the street. The other two smaller areas of light are reflections from street lamps shining off of the wet streets. We cannot tell exactly where the source lights for these ‘blobs’ are located, but at you will see, it is readily apparent when a vehicle passes through the narrower and smaller of the three blobs in the center. [example]
to be cont.
@Whonoze: “The clock-time recorded by the surveillance system was set incorrectly, but we have determined within a quite small margin of error when the recordings actually began. ”
You might want to clarify this sentence a bit to explain how the start time was determined, that is, to say it was based on X, Y and Z. The details can be explained later, but it would be good to state the list of things in evidence used to sync the video, so people know from the get-go how it was determined.
Can you repost the link. NLME had closed the comment section when I wanted to get back at it.
Just a suggestion, the finished product should use regular times of day, to make it understandable to most people who view it. Few people will understand times that are video start times or military time, since they simply can’t or won’t do the math. Thanks
I’ve been thinking about the video. I too have a problem with large projects.
Maybe we can break it up in 3 videos. The first one explaing the camera locations, and how we interpret the different light events. Showing examples of the sequence of a car entering the gate, going on RVC. A car on TTL going towards the eastgate etc.
The second video explaining how we established the time.
The third showing GZ’s movements. Animation would be nice, but I don’t think it is nessecary. We can use a map and just draw GZ’s movements on it.
If you want to, you can combine the three videos into one, once you
are satisfied with the individual videos.
What do you think?
That makes sense to me, too. Tchoupi already has an excellent illustration of the camera angles and field of view of the clubhouse cams. I might go ahead and do a moving animation version of that just to show the various fields of view one at a time so there is less confusion. Before he had his illustration, I had made a basic illustration of my own in photoshop but never finished it since his was posted first. I can use that as a start.
The second video is in some ways the most important, since it establishes the time. Using audio clips of the 911 calls and again, some maps showing the field of view of W3 might come in handy.
If someone has that potential conduit to a local who can take photos of W3’s aprox field of view, that would be something worth including. They could just stand in her driveway and shoot a pic towards the clubhouse and that would nail home the point there.
As for the third movements/ conclusions video, that seems to be calling out for a plotted on a map animation of vehicle movements. I’ve already done some of those. It’s mostly voice over and editing work that needs to be considered.
Another trigger-happy gun-toting floridian started an argument (about loud music in public space, gas station), then unloaded 8 rounds into an SUV full of teenagers (allegedly having thought he saw a gun but no gun was found in the SUV), killing one of them, a 17 year old black teenager, fled the scene and is now claiming self-defense. Ironically, this man’s lawyer is trying to distance this case from the Zimmerman case by implying that “Zimmerman didn’t feel any remorse when he killed Trayvon Martin” while her client “is devastated and horrified by the death of the teen.”
Ok, do we really care if these guys cried their eyes out or not after shooting someone? Of course they might cry over having their own lives turned upside down. But when is the state and the whole country gonna realize that you can’t trust people with guns as long as those “responsible citizens” with guns are walking around with prejudicial fears? Makes me wanna scream! But like this cat, seems like no one’s gettin’ the message…..
All three of my cats came running downstairs. They are trying to locate the interloper.
That cat is not angry.
That is a love song, a serenade sung by male cats in the vicinity of a receptive female. Used to be a common late-night sounds before national campaigns to get pet cats “fixed”.
Psycho!….he didn’t want to bother the authorities about the shootings because of the holiday. How nice of him. At least he owned up to everything he did. Clearly a psycho, but what a courteous honest one.
@Whonoze & Tchcopi & Amsterdam,
Sorry I sent that before I was finished.
Night time video coverage will be extremely difficult to get from videographer. I have another idea. Is it possible for you guys to get a list of questions that you can pose to a resident without being too technical? I’m not saying the person lacks intelligence, just saying could you pose them where a person can reasonable respond.
Questions, like the lighting.
I truly want to get you guys as much information that can be obtained about the clubhouse.
that a resident can answer.
Questions regarding the gate: How does a pedestrian get in through the front gate generally? That is, does the pedestrian gate have a lock or a certain time that it locks? If so, can they describe how to open it, that is, does one just simply punch in a code, and does it look like it’s digital? Of course, this all pertains to what was in place on Feb. 26, and did anything change regarding that gate after then?
WSI, meant no disrespect by not including your name. I thank you for your reply. Good Question.
I’m thinking if we can just put like a questionnarie together, it would be easier then a nightime video. Things are tense over there at the complex. The daytime video is being worked on but, have no timeframe. I am grateful for whatever they give us.
Ok I will copy your post as is, put into a notebook and collect the questions.
And thanks again
@Loree, no prob, I knew you meant to initially solicit questions regarding lighting as a replacement for video from those other guys. The questionnaire is a great idea. I can well imagine that someone walking around with a video camera at night, especially who’s not police or part of a news crew, is not going to be well-received by people who live there. So questions that any resident can answer without having to snoop around at the site of the shooting would be easiest to get answered. It would help put some long-standing questions to rest. Oh, how about those sprinkler heads? So back behind the townhomes, where are the sprinkler heads located? Specifically, how far away from the sidewalk are they?
The others would have better questions about lighting, but a real simple question is: Is the mail box area lighted at night (that is, illuminated by lights that are NOT the streetlight)? Would they consider the mailbox area to be well-lit or poorly lit?
spot the difference….
one guy gets punched 3 times, the other over 10 times…which one had to go to hospital…..??
check out these pictures…..who was in a life and death struggle and claims he had to kill in self defense?
the guy that gets punched 3 times
the guy that gets punched over 10 times and smothered
hmmmm somethings fishy
If there is a pipeline to a sympathetic R@TL resident, I wish we could ask them to stand under the security cams in the daytime and snap sone photos to compare the night views with.
If there is a pipeline to a sympathetic R@TL resident, I wish we could ask them to stand under the security cams in the daytime and snap some digital photos to compare the night views with.
Copied post will forward. All I can do is ask. So far I have 3 posts copied. When I get to ten will forward questions.
I thought of another question/ request, which I mentioned in a post elsewhere regarding a group project/ video. That would be to confirm what the field of view of W3 was out her front windows. PIctures wold be great, but the basic question is, how soon could she/W3 conceivably see the arrival of ofc Tim Smith to remark “he’s here now?” Could she have said that as he passed the gate or clubhouse or not?
Can I pose the question a different way. I totally don’t think that w3 is going to let this person get a view form her windows. 🙂 How about this, Condsidering the view from (insert witness three address), is it possible for her to see Officer Smith arrival? What is the approx distance from her windows to the front gate? something like that?
While GZ’s legal site said yesterday that his fund has dipped to it’s lowest, they didn’t say how low. It’s now being reported in the Herald that it’s less than $15,000, after having pulled in $140,000 since the bond hearing. He burned through that in half a year and O’Mara hasn’t even been paid? Note that doesn’t include the $200,000 he raked in before the hearing. Ironic in the last sentence in the “update”, they accuse others of trying to profit from a tragedy.
BTW, why in the world are they calling GZ’s “thank you” notes autographs? An autograph is something you get from celebrities. A signature is something you get on christmas cards and checks. PULEEZE! It’s feeding his already overinflated ego.
WSI I owe you an apology. I am uncertain to the reasoning of so much analysis of certain things you and fellow posters here have, but there is no excuse for rudeness. I can only offer this as a possibility for my departure from civility….I spent too much time researching this case which led me to places that would be illegal (one would hope) for a child to visit. At some point I could not distinguish who was who in blogs and comment boards. It has nothing to do with the creativity or smarts of the peeps of that name that will no longer be mentioned it was too much reading of their poison. I wanted to fight everyone and any slight variation in my mind that made me feel it was a pro z person had to be annihilated. I am hopefully getting better and am spending less time chasing info that in the long run is irrelevant to the prosecution of Trayvon Martin’s murderer. Please accept my humble apology.
@sdunn5, apology accepted. I eventually read your entry post at Leatherman’s and knew you were probably reacting to a very bad experience with your email being hacked, and I’m sorry you had to experience that. I think many people are drawn to this case for different reasons. Unfortunately, it’s become a rather ugly “us” versus “them” battle. It really shouldn’t have to be. But keep your chin up, the next time a true pro-GZ’er gets to you, take a deep breath and belt out “Serenity NOW!” (reference: Seinfeld show, George Costanza’s father’s coping method for stress…although not sure it worked very well for him…..). BTW, I know about the banning of GZ’s name from Leatherman’s, but wouldn’t it be confusing for new readers who don’t know who “Fogen” is?
Serenity now…insanity later? Whew thank goodness I got the 2nd part out of the way early!!!! (wink wink)!!
I was perusing through this site listing all the SYG cases (convicted, justified and pending) in Florida. Haven’t read them all, but in what I have read, it just seems like if you took the gun out of the equation, most likely no one would have gotten more than a black eye, a bruised ego or something stolen. Of one case, Circuit Judge Ronald Ficarrotta’s stated: “The court finds that the defendant’s use of deadly force was excessive when compared to the type of force to which he was responding, which was, according to all available testimony, only the use of hands.”
Ah, the mystery of DeeDee’s recorded interview with ABC/Crump continues……
Click to access motion_to_compel.pdf
Oh what drama. Just read this new motion to compel Mr. Crump to hand over the original recording of DeeDee’s interview. O’Mara and West are using footnotes in that motion to air dirty laundry once again. Among their many complaints regarding Mr. Crump (at least in a court document they’re nice enough to call him that, instead of just “Crump” as they did at one of the hearings), they’re claiming that he’s obstructing justice by withholding the original recording. But Mr. Crump has said that the original recording device was in his possession and that he was working on getting another copy.
I’m not that old (I think) but the last time I used a recorder it was in college when they still had those little cassette tapes in them that didn’t hold much more than an hour or two of audio. However, I just looked up digital recorders and I guess they can hold up to thousands of hours now (WOW!). Which means you could use one for years and not have to erase anything.
So Mr. Crump’s personal digital recorder has everything in there, including anything he’s recorded for other cases (he is an active lawyer after all). So OF COURSE, he wouldn’t and shouldn’t be expected to hand over his personal recorder with everything on it, but that’s what O’Mara wants. They even made the STUPIDEST offer to buy Mr. Crump a new recorder to replace the one they want to confiscate. As if that were the issue!!!
But O’Mara KNEW ABC News was at the interview, so why haven’t they asked Matt Gutman for his recording if it is suspected he made a separate one?
I get the feeling the defense’s tactic here, as elsewhere is to have things to complain about rather than to actually have the facts of the case known.
On the recording that Crump shared with the prosecution, and was made available to the public as discovery is the startling information that Dee Dee was made to understand by Trayvon that the teen was being followed by the moving car as he made his way towards home, something GZ’s account worked hard to leave out. The way GZ tells it, (improbably, and inconsistently) GZ never moved his car in the same direction as TM walked while behind the youth. Instead his fantastical claim is that he was somehow always unable to see where the youth moved by virtue of being ahead or out of sight of the person he found so suspicious.
I’m not sure O’Mara has listened to the recording carefully enough to know what a bombshell it contains. But maybe he has, and that’s why he doesn’t want the more clear ABC News version of the conversation with Crump and Dee Dee.
For whatever reason, Dee Dee was not asked specifically about this detail of the story when she was questioned later by the prosecution, and it seems to have fallen off the radar of blogger speculation somewhat as well.
It’s a sore point with me that the conventional wisdom seems open ended as to whether or not GZ chased TM down TTL with his car or not. To me the timing of the NEN call all but guarantees that this took place, given that GZ was honest when he said TM was “near the clubhouse” when asked. There is a set length of time as TM seems to approach the vehicle, and a set time after that I call the “long tail” where TM seems to be walking away before running away. This length of time helps place the possible positions of GZ’s car, since if it were already all the way near the cut thru, as GZ claims, the speed at which TM walks would have carried him out of sight before George could have seen him run. In other words, if TM walked at a more or less consistent speed both to and away from GZ’s car, it tells us where the car could and couldn’t be. And it couldn’t have been be where GZ claims – most of us are in agreement on that, for myraid other reasons – but it also shows us where it probably was, and when it moved.
I know the defense is thinking that DeeDee was coached, fibbing or outright fabricating her story. We know that her statement matches other evidence, and there’s no reason to think that she’s purposely making anything up (whether on her own or by coaching). But the defense has been listening to the treepers a little too much, and so, as QETNO likes to say, they’ll keep chasing their tail on that one.
But I noticed there is a part in the interview recording with Mr. Crump that is audible where DeeDee says “it isn’t racial to tell you the truth it isn’t racial”. She says this after the recorder was started again, so it seems to be part of a conversation that was missed. Despite other parts being garbled, those words are rather clear and it’s also in Screaming Jay’s transcript.
She had already given her account of what she heard as a witness, so this sounds like she’s just giving her opinion. Who knows if she’s talking about not thinking GZ’s motives were racial or if other aspects of the case were not racial. I haven’t heard anyone discuss this statement before, any guesses anyone? Regardless, it doesn’t matter what she thought GZ’s motives were because she doesn’t know beyond what she heard. But what she heard was good enough. She’s got the “bombshell” alright, catching him lying about what was said at the initial confrontration, and describes a chase of sorts but we have to put it in context.
I do believe that at some point GZ was behind TM in his truck, if even for a brief moment. Imagine this, TM is at the mailboxes, and GZ creeps up to it as we can see in the EPH video. He’s there for at least 9-10 seconds. TM could have been eyeing him on his approach so as soon as he pulls up, TM gets weirded out and starts walking away from the mailboxes. GZ drives up behind him then passes him but then does a U-turn and parks on TTL. TM takes some time to walk past and around his car on his way home (hence “he’s coming to check me out”). In this context, “following” does not have to be always “behind”. GZ was driving around in crazy circles keeping an eye on a pedestrian. Later, if TM says “he’s getting real close”, it also does not have to be GZ chasing behind him but rather GZ coming up close to where he may be standing or hiding behind the townhomes after thinking he had lost GZ.
i’m still having trouble with the whole u-turn thing. It just doesn’t make sense…why turn and face the opposite direction to where the “suspect” is heading? I know some of you have spent really valuable time on the videos but i’m still struggling with that part….
It took me a while to be convinced that he made a uturn. When he made the uturn, Trayvon was not moving, he was still at the mail area. When GZ said ” now he is coming towards me” he’d already made the uturn and was parked directly opposite the mail area at the first bend on TTL facing towards the mail area.
Trayvon had to pass by his car to go home.
The uturn didn’t make sense to me until we had the timing right. Then everything fell into place.
The cruising and uturns didn’t make sense to me until I saw the video of the mail area. I am convinced now that GZ got a tip about Trayvon standing in the mail area. GZ wouldn’t have been able to see him there driving east on RVC. He passes the intersection and makes a uturn. Driving west I think he was able to see Trayvon. He passes the intersection again, makes another uturn and then drives east on RVC again, but now turns right on TTL.
This part we diifer, I’ll give you my interpretation. GZ drives very slowly past the mail area, you can see that at 22:14 in the eph video. I think he stops his car just passed the footpath you can see in the msnbc video. You then see the lights in the eph videos. I think he used his flashlight from his car.
When that light is gone you can see a car driving slowly east on the ep video. While the car is driving away, the nen call begins. So at the beginning of the nen call, GZ was driving away from Trayvon. Then you can see a car driving in the direction of Trayvon again in the ep video. That car doesn’t pass the eph video, but you can see light on the pavement in the eph video. The car must have stopped before making a right hand turn on TTL. The light is gone in the next frame, which probably means he turned off the lights.
Trayvon must have felt weird when he saw GZ stopping at the mail area. Probably felt relieved when he saw him driving away, only to see the guy turn his car, drive back and then stop right in front of him. He starts walking towards his home about 10 seconds after GZ stopped his car.
When GZ says ” now he is staring at me” that is when he stops his car right in front of Trayvon.
I hope that helps.
I agree with Amsterdam here, as far as the movements and timing goes. We can’t know if he got a tipoff or not, but the way he seems to have driven shows that he wasn’t following or leading the teen from the shortcut near Taafe’s house at all, nor did he ever park at the front of the clubhouse. So the “tipoff” theory has a lot going for it.
Always bear this in mind: Many things are possible. What George Zimmerman claims happened is not possible.
The u-turn makes PERFECT SENSE. He can observe the mail shed, and if the suspect starts to go towards RVC or the gate, he can immediately FOLLOW because he’s facing that way.
The last thing he was allowing for was Trayvon walking in his direction and past him. That’s why the “he’s coming towards me” seemed so threatening to him — the whole world revolving around GZ, anyone coming towards him must be for HIM, not for happening to live in that direction.
So this forced him to turn around again, IF he truly ended up parking facing the doggie path as he claims. Most likely he did not face that way, accounting for why he HAD to follow on foot, even if Trayvon went
Re: witness 3 field of view. I think whatever you can see from her sidewalk or driveway is sufficient to let us know what’s needed. We kinda know it already just using sight lines on a map, but a photo would be great to include in an article or video to illustrate the point better. I don’t think invading anyone’s privacy is needed to get all the answers we seek. (Unless of course GZ feels like telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth someday near an open microphone…. )
The reason I’m not piling on question after question is that I do hope this nice person continues to be helpful in giving us insight and eyes on the ground where the alleged crime took place. But if they are game, and enjoy helping I’d be curious about the timing of various segments of walk – how long would it have taken ofc Smith to walk from his car to the sidewalk T? How far could TM walk in the time between “he’s coming to check me out” and “these axxholes always get away?” if he starts at the mail kiosk? What about the next segment, where we go from “these ______ always get away” to “sh/t, he’s running?” These things are easy to plot on google learth, but the proof is in the pudding as they say and someone’s experience, or a cell phone video or whatever is great too. Don’t forget the alleged walk of TM where GZ claims he doubled back and circled his vehicle. I’d love to know how long that takes an average person to complete. IN general, do you think this person would help with this sort of information? Or is that too specific and complex?
Thanks for entertaining these notions. A daytime photo panorama from the approximate POV of the pool cam is still my number one wish, with the view down TTL the most important view.
Thanks for your post. The proposed video from TM pov is being worked on. Such as from front gate to mail box to T. I just don’t have a timeframe. As you have stated we don’t want to pile it on, I thank you for that. I will pass along your questions/requests. No, I don’t think that was too specific or complex. 🙂
I would like to see a walk from the mail area towards the cut-through, like Wllisnewton suggested. I can’t really think of light events that can be accomplished at day time outside the clubhouse. Maybe a view of the front door of the clubhouse, to see what is reflected in that front door. I am not that sure Trayvon entered via the cut-through anymore. I would’ve expected to see someone passing by on one of the camera’s. It was raining hard and according to DD he was running for cover. If that was the path he took, why not take shelter near the front entrance.
This is what was emailed to me…… What to be expected will be the walk from Taaffe, to mailbox then to T. Extra footage of the mailbox area and pool area. We are all at the mercy of the videographer. Anyone with a camera is suspect, so no concrete timeframe may be given.
For me that’s good enough. I remain very very very patient. It’s one of my virtues. 🙂
You did great. I’m thrilled that we have a connection with somebody who is able and willing to grant us some of our wishes.
Thanks Amsterdam. But the real thanks goes to all of you on Bcclist, Leathermans, LLMPapa, Marinade Dave and everyone else in striving for Justice for Trayvon Martin. 🙂
IN ORDER FOR YOU TO HEAR SOMETHING ON THE RECORDING, ZIMMERMAN HAS TO BE ON THE PHONE.
IF HE’S ON THE PHONE, THAT LEAVES HIM WITH ONLY ONE FREE HAND.
Unitron says “IF HE’S ON THE PHONE, THAT LEAVES HIM WITH ONLY ONE FREE HAND”.
That’s not a conclusive argument. True, from LLMPapa’s video of him fiddling with a sheet of paper in the courtroom, GZ doesn’t look like a great multi-tasker, He may well be just fiddling with the flashlight and not the gun. However, before Whonoze shows up with another parody about GZ’s octopus arms, theoretically, GZ can have only two hands and still be able to stay on the phone and handle two other objects either simultaneously or in succession. He can cradle the phone between his ear and shoulder momentarily, I actually think that’s WHY that first click click sound is so loud is that he had to use a few of the free fingers on the one hand holding the phone to his ear to help stabilize/hold that other object (whether a flashlight or a gun). He also has an armpit and several pockets and a waistband at his disposal to hold one or the other object momentarily.
Folding a piece a paper is not as exciting to GZ as racking a gun talking to police, banging on a flashlight and chasing a kid. Those are the multi tasks he likes doing. Depends on the tasks. IMO
and he was on different drugs then……….
It is possible, of course, that Zimmerman was able to use both hands to rack the slide. But, since he had a full magazine after the shot, he must have had a bullet already chambered – which Osterman and others would have taught him to do – and, thus, it would have been unnecessary to rack the slide.
I’ve looked into this as much as I’m able to understand, not being a gun owner, and while I agree that the initial clicking sounds like racking, it just doesn’t make sense for him to do so since he already had one in the chamber.
One thing i have learned from the clubhouse videos is don’t assume anything. After Zimmerman ended his call there is a two minute time gap. We don’t know what he did or where he was during that time. He could’ve chambered a round when we hear that particular sound and walked back towards his car as he claimed he did and got a new magazine from his car. We have no proof that is what he did, but the evidence doesn’t exclude that.
I would like to hear from an expert that the sound we hear is incompatibel with the sound of GZ racking his gun. For now we don’t have conclusive evidence that the sound we hear is not compatible with GZ racking his gun, nor do we have conclusive evidence that GZ did not have the opportunity to load his gun to full capacity.
He had the opportunity to load his gun to full capacity before he ever left his house that evening, where it wasn’t raining indoors and the light was much better and he wasn’t also juggling a phone and a malfunctioning flashlight.
Why would he have waited?
Exactly, although technically after he fired that one shot that was already chambered the gun used the recoil to chamber the round at the top of the clip.
But the gun was as fully loaded as possible when he pulled the trigger.
I’m not a gun owner, either, but I’ve had plenty of flashlights that had to banged on to get them to work.
People want to see George Zimmerman, Super Villain, when the more likely circumstance is George Zimmerman, Super Bumbler.
But that doesn’t produce as ominous a soundtrack.
I don’t see a difference between him leaving the house with the gun loaded to capacity and him chambering a bullet at the scene. The one difference is that he’d stated he had forgotten about his gun, an it is another indication that he was prepairing to continue his pursuit.
I wasn’t looking for that sound, it jumped out at me and I did my homework. I checked videos and blogs to learn about this gun and people’s behaviour in carrying the gun. I’ve tried very hard to find the make of his flashlight, but I haven’t found it yet. I checked videos about tactical flashlights to see if any of them produce a sound similar to the sound we hear, when turned on. Believe it or not, but there are tactical flaslight nuts out there. All of them had a push button at the buttom and that button didn’t produce anything resembling the sound we hear.
What we hear is the sound of a spring action. I don’t want to be right, I just haven’t heard any argument yet that gives a better explanation for that sound. You don’t offer one other than that the state of that gun when it was taken into custody is proof of the state of that gun 6 minutes earlier without any evidence that that is the case.
That is pathetic. I have hated the idea of a mobile phone. I’d never wanted to be reachable at all times. But even I have managed to learn to hold my phone between my ear and my shoulder so that I can pour myself a glass of wine while having a conversation.
GZ’s bloody nose:
There is no way that his nose can look that swollen and then deflate just about a half hour later when they took the evidence photos. In Osterman’s book, he recounts GZ’s account of how the paramedics inserted gauze tubes up his nose. I’d like to know if this was taken before or after the paramedics did that.
here is a pic that Shannon put together . pics taken on the same day
That is amazing. Swelling only gets worse the first three days. He should not have a swollen nose hours before he doesn’t. And I speak from experience.
IMO. It only confirms the lack of serious bodily injury. O’mara or West must of thought if they showed his supporters or anyone who was on the fence a color photo the money will pour in. I don’t think that will happen.
@Loree – thanks! (for everything)
That’s an excellent side by side comparison, and everyone should see that. What you are seeing is the effect of a slightly wide lens placed close to GZ’s face in the cell phone pic. It distorts the features and makes his nose look bigger than it is. Take a look at the size of his neck in the two photos as a comparison to see what the lens is doing to foreground and background. In one, he seems to have a somewhat thick neck (which he does) and in the other he has this huge nose and a pencil neck.
Better yet, stick your own cell phone in your face and take a picture of your own nose and then look in a mirror for comparison.
Apparently the defense has had this photo for over a month now, but sees fit to make it public now. One has to wonder why? Could it be that they care more about getting donations than they do about anything else?
What this also means is that the defense likely also has the good copies of Jon’s cell phone pics of the flashlight and body as well. These should be in the public realm then, should they not? Where’s our sunshine law taking effect? Aren’t we owed a new round of discovery materials by now?
Aw schucks, thanks.
I hate taking pictures, but I will try it for the sake of science.
Apparently the defense has had this photo for over a month now, but sees fit to make it public now. One has to wonder why? Could it be that they care more about getting donations than they do about anything else?
Yes. I believe O’mara and or West thinks the money will roll in after the color photo. All it does is please his fans. It shows us, people with common sense that is not serious bodily harm. I believe it will do more damage then good. They just don’t realize it yet.
Putting this photo out is a tactic to sway the gullible. It is intended to illicit an emotional response, not a logical one.
@ 7:25 photo taken by LEO Michael Wagner of GZ siting in squad car
@ 7:40 emt start cleaning/ attending to him
@7:52 arrives at cop shop
@11:21 CSI tech D Smith takes admitted killer pics of hands face hands etc.
I stand corrected, the evidence photos of GZ were taken at 11:21 pm (thanks Loree) and not a half hour later. But still. I know it looks ridiculous, but here’s a re-enactment assignment for the masses. If one were to shove up some gauze/tissue paper up the nose, would it cause a bulge in the right side like that? I tried and it did extend my nose a bit but I think it depends on the shape and size.
There really isn’t much we won’t do, is there.
Thanks for making me laugh.
I’ve had some “accidents”. Most recently I fell off my bike. Nothing serious. I scraped my mouth on the pavement. Somebody gave me some gauze to stop the bleeding. I didn’t think to much of it, and stopped on the way home to pick up some food at a delli. The concern I received at the delli was the first indication I got that I didn’t look that good. I was shocked when I got home about a half an hour after I fell off my bike and looked in the mirror. Even two weeks later, when I thought I looked presentable again, people would ask me what the hell happened to me.
My mom fell of her bike couple of months after I did. She actually did break her nose. She looked like a prize fighter. Both of us would have loved to look like GZ did a couple of hours after he had his ” life or death struggle”.
Significant to me that the TOP scratch on the nose has NO BLOOD at all. So it is not a scratch. It could be a BURN from a hot shell casing.
The blob of blood on the right side of the mouth is a transfer from a hand, as you’d get from feeling gingerly around a sore mouth with a finger that has blood on it.
Not sure if the right forehead area isn’t more of the same, or just the way the light-spot doesn’t fall on it.
Where are the trickles down the cheeks into the mustache, from the cuts on the back of the head? they must have formed only while leaning forward in the car AFTER this was taken and before the EMTs cleaned him up.
ANYWAY whatever happened, it was clearly after Trayvon was no longer touching him, as from that amount on blood beneath the nose, Trayvon MUST have gotten some on his hands, if he was smothering GZ at all.
And to kill someone for this? what next? shooting people because they say “Boo”???
Very weird picture. I think its photoshopped. Why the geisha lips? lol Automatically you are going to lick your lips, reflex. If your cuffed, you swipe with sleeve or lick lips. It’s not real.
Martin’s hands were never tested for blood/DNA.
The only part of Martin’s body tested for blood/DNA was his fingernail clippings. Martin’s own blood was found in his right hand fingernail clippings but no blood was detected from his left hand clippings.
Zimmerman’s blood was found on Martin’s shirt (me-8). No blood, not even Martin’s own blood, was found on the sleeves of Martin’s soaking wet, dank smelling sweatshirt (me-12). Maybe his sleeves were rolled up or so saturated with water, it was impossible to obtain a decent sample for testing purposes.
Welcome back, James. 🙂 I mean this sincerely, btw. I do not mind that you partake in discussion here.
@James, You are correct to say that the DNA samples from TM’s hands were specifically from fingernail scrapings. HOWEVER, it still begs the question that if there were blood on the palm of his hands that they wouldn’t just test that also or at least make a note of it in the medical examiner’s report.
You said “No blood, not even Martin’s own blood, was found on the sleeves of Martin’s soaking wet, dank smelling sweatshirt (me-12). Maybe his sleeves were rolled up or so saturated with water, it was impossible to obtain a decent sample for testing purposes.”
TM’s blood was not found on his own sleeves, BUT his own DNA was there. The samples were sufficient for testing. Blood is a lot easier to get DNA from than from shed skin cells. Blood is quite sticky and being soaked by rainwater later wouldn’t prevent it from being seen visually or picked up by chemical tests. As far as I could tell from reading the DNA reports, there were no spots of blood seen on the sleeves. As far as the possibility of his having his sleeves rolled up, we do not see them rolled up in the 7-11 video, and there’s no reason to think he’d roll them up after leaving the store while walking in the rain. And please don’t say he rolled them up to come looking for a duke out fight with GZ!
Just curious, James–how do you know how Trayvon’s sweatshirt smelled?
Have you read the autopsy report? I believe it stated that Zimmerman’s DNA/blood was NOT found on Trayvon’s hands.
Good Morning. IIRC from the discovery documents, has a report where the examiner of the Trayvon Martin’s sweatshirt was received in a damp state and had an odor of ammonia or mold. If I can locate document will post for you. Also it might be that the sweatshirt came out of box that his father left for him in the garage to rumage through. There is also documentation for that also. Will post if I find it. 🙂
P.S. – Isn’t this the photo the cop kept for several days before turning it over?
Still looking for supplemental narrative from Michael Wagner
Also, if Trayvon was so violent, why did he attempt *TWO* non-violent means to resolve the situation? His first choice was to run away, and his second choice was to ask why he was being followed.
Also, how does one hide and confront someone they never saw exit their vehicle? George and his supporters claim Trayvon did not see George exit his vehicle and “go in the same direction,” sooo how does Trayvon being the one to confront work? Are you telling me he is a mind reader? Or are you telling me he ran all the way home and all the way back with no one hearing or seeing him do this to confront George in his car where he last saw him, but just got super lucky and found his “prey” standing right there on the sidewalk?
George why don’t you want anyone to know how you got from the clubhouse to where you claim you got out of your car? How does Trayvon walk past your car, walk up the sidewalk then come back to circle your car and then go back to disappear behind the sidewalk when the moment you say he ran, you ran after? That’s a bit perplexing.
I could go on for hours… O’Mara, West, Zimmerman, & Co. You can keep quoting W6 and W11, you can keep showing pics of George’s ouchies, you can keep repeating George’s tale, and you can keep slamming Angela Corey, BDLR, Ben Crump, et all. It doesn’t mean shit unless you can answer the above and the many other total and complete logic fails with George’s stories. Also, how can others identify a voice as George’s that George couldn’t even identify as his own? Can you explain the freudian slips?
People who do not routinely record their own voices and listen to the playback often do not think that recordings of their own voice sound like them because instead of hearing it just through the air like everybody else who hears them, they’ve gone their entire lives hearing it both through the air and through bone conduction inside their head, and the two signals differ in phase and frequency response, which means the algebraic summing of the two is quite different from what the outside world hears.
This also results in something called the Freeman Effect, where a radio announcer needs either his microphone’s output or headphone’s input shifted in phase to be able to accurately hear how loud their voice is relative to the music bed over which they are talking so that they don’t have to crank the headphone volume much higher than is good for their long-term hearing.
Any scientific reasoning behind why even when he was being told that was him he still said no until about the third time Serino had to tell him? I still recognize my voice on tape even when thinking it doesn’t sound like me.
Who do you think is screaming on that tape, unitron?
Having never heard Trayvon’s voice, I cannot offer an opinion in which I have any faith on who the screamer was or wasn’t.
Going only by the sound I can’t even state that it wasn’t a third person (although I do rule it out based on no one who saw the two of them saw a third party).
You haven’t heard Trayvon answer the phone on the 7/11 video?
On the 7-11 video I hear some cash register beeps and some constant noise that’s probably the store’s HVAC system or the slushy machine’s exhaust fan, and that pretty much drowns out everything else.
i seem to be of the unpopular thought that it was gz screaming for help. I think gz was trying to detain trayvon, i think it was more of a wrestle and gz obtained his injuries due to an accidental clash of heads or maybe even the gun recoil (lets face it, there was no way his arm could have been locked at the elbow since his other hand was somewhere in front of the gun so the kick back would have been hard). I think Martin had no idea this was a life or death situation…well i’m sure he was scared and confused but i don’t think any punches were flying so he was probably thinking he would be able to break free. I think gz was calling for help because he’s a pussy who knew he couldn’t hold the “suspect” for much longer..it sounds like frustrated helps to me. I can imagine Trayvon saying get off me, let me go freak or something like that, but probably had no idea that this guy was gonna shoot him when his suspect didn’t respect his authority (or so he alluded to to Singleton) which is why i don’t think it is self defense because it was a wrestle in the grass where both could have walked away relatively unhurt, not a one sided smack down where someone had to die the way gz described it. If GZ stopped trying to hang on to Trayvon he probably would have got up and ran home but GZ wasn’t gonna let this one get away..
@ Jo, I’m with you there in believing GZ was yelling in trying get help to detain TM. I also believe both were yelling. Most of the conversation around this issue has been about whether it was one or the other, and there’s a perhaps false assumption that whoever was determined to be “THE ONE” yelling must be the victim in this case.
Jo, I think George called for help, but that’s because I hear two voices in that tape. I think Trayvon was screaming, but I think George was just calling for help…kind of like his weak reenactment. The first time I heard that tape, I could make out other phrases.
@qetno yeah there might be 2 people but i think the “hellllllp” “helllllp meeee” is gz.
Didn’t the teacher say there were normal calls for help and terrified yells for help? I think both were yelling for help. GZ even slips up with Serino and says “he yelled for help” then Serino had to say wait and ask him again who was yelling for help. Serino played that tape for GZ, and GZ seemed to not think that was him. Serino had to repeat that that was him screaming, which only then did GZ say it was him by making the comment that it didn’t sound like him, but implying that it was him.
The yelps are definitely Trayvon. Screaming is an action, getting your gun and getting ready to fire is another kind of action. GZ’s focus would’ve moved to the gun. That is just how the brain works. Try screaming for help while performing another task.
that photo is weird. His nostrils seem really flared, his hair looks longer than in the later police station photo. The blood doesn’t even look like it has run down from his nostrils, why is there no blood in them? and it certainly hasn’t been smeared by someone smothering him….and the small marks on his forhead are clearly old marks.
I also really like the sad, puppy dog face.
osterman saw zimmerman in the back of the police car..you can’t tell me they didn’t make a bee line for him, i mean where else would they have gone. I wonder if the emt’s were already there and why no one mentioned osterman and shellies presence. Why does he have so much blood on the tip of his nose and the geisha smear on his lips is the thinnest but looks very fresh. His buddy probably applied the blood in various places….it just doesn’t look like it came from his nose. And in the after photo you can see a bit of dried blood on the tip of his nose but none in his nostrils where it would be hardest to clean.
Anyone who makes a beeline for a suspect in custody in the back of a police cruiser is going to find the police highly disinclined to allow the visit (and ready with a spare set of cuffs for them if they persist), and if Osterman was a deputy for more than a day or two, he’d most certainly know that.
they allowed them on the scene and haven’t seemed to mention it and they were also allowed to move the car so i don’t think anyone was in control of the situation
They weren’t “allowed” to move the car (which was actually a truck), they just did it,
The cops ran plate numbers on vehicles parked in the street looking for any that were from outside the neighborhood as part of the effort to identify the unknown victim.
Zimmerman’s truck came back with a Retreat at Twin Lakes address so that was the end of their interest in at that time.
They hadn’t realized at the time that the location and orientation of Zimmerman’s vehicle would be of importance.
And apparently the truck was outside of the established perimeter of the crime scene anyway.
Osterman said he didn’t talk in depth with GZ at the scene. So he did have access to GZ.
Once the dust has settled and all of our emotions have run its course, we still can’t lose sight of the bigger picture. I’m going to quote Bill Larsen’s (just some person on another site) reaction to this just released photo of GZ:
“Regardless if this was photoshopped or not, who says if a maniac is chasing you down with a gun, you don’t have the right to hit him.”
Page 18 – Wagner’s report, dated 24 March
Page 64 – Serino’s ROI supplemental, dated March 22, stating he received email and photos from Wagner on 21st
Thank you so much.
Thought you guys could use a laugh
O’mara thought he was getting this photo, hahahahah
The club house video shadow chasers and Osterman spotters are going to be heartbroken! 😆
“The latest round of evidence contains numerous FDLE reports, documenting the agency’s investigative efforts, including canvassing Zimmerman’s neighborhood and nearby businesses.
Multiple investigative avenues, such as collecting surveillance video from the community’s clubhouse and local businesses, resulted nothing of evidentiary value, the reports show.”
Those who worked hard on coordinating the light incidences on the surveillance videos did so to further prove or disprove Zimmerman’s statements. While they concluded that the results contradicted Zimmerman, they were well aware that their findings would not be considered evidentiary. They might be somewhat disappointed, but hardly surprised.
And very few of us believed that it was Osterman at the bank.
And what the hell is going on with the broken sentences…..
Flow my tears, oh shattered heart. It was reported in the Sentinal, therefore it must be true!
And I am so jealous James knows how to generate an animated emoticon in WordPress!
Folks, O’Mara’s website has a bunch of the FBI reports from the lastest dump. Have only just read Taaffe’s and Singleton’s interviews with the FBI. Stuff that comes out of Taaffe’s mouth is amazing. Like how he knew kids were selling drugs because he found “baggies”. Didn’t say he found anything in the baggies, just that he found them (empty lunch bags maybe?), and basically the shooting of Trayvon Martin could have been of any of the boys in the neighborhood. However, Singleton says she only remembers one narcotics case in the neighborhood and it involved a white female living across from the clubhouse. Well, if your view of the world is through Taaffe and Zimmerman goggles, then yeah, TM’s shooting could have been any of the teens in the neighborhood….lemme fix that….any of the black teens in the neighborhood,
Well pass along info
Quick read thru.
Smith advised Singleton it might be self defense.
Santiago made the call as a supervisor for Singleton to meet Z at cop shop, not Serino.
Taaffe is a nut job.
I think O’mara has found out that the picture did not get the response he needed or wanted and he threw those reports so we would stop talking about the picture. JMO
Taaffe is a nut job, but the one thing he did right was approach people walking through his property and talked to them. They were cordial, end of story.
Of course they were cordial, because they were not criminals. Trayvon would have been cordial as well, if Zimmerman had treated him cordially.
Because he was no criminal either!
According to witness 49, a co-worker at Digital Risk who is a former police officer, GZ likes watching Southland, a cop show (never seen it myself). Why am I not surprised?
Never heard of it, but come on, many people enjoy those type shows. 😛
Sure, I used to watch CHiPs too when I was a kid. Not that I really care to know, but it’s just that I’ve yet to hear of an interest or hobby of his that isn’t cop wannabe related.
What about writing fiction? He seems to partake in that, so maybe he likes that, lol.
Holy moly! More documents from the evidence dump. There may be an 8-year-old witness to the whole thing reported to the crime tip line, but they couldn’t find her! Could be a hoax, but what if she’s real?? Poor thing!
Click to access 3-23-12-FDLE-investigative-report–NEIGHBORHOOD-CANVAS-SPECIFIC-TO-CRIME-LINE-TIP-pdf.pdf
PING! PING! PING! For all of the hoopla going on at the nuthouse (TCTH) about phone logs and ping records of TM’s phone, it seems that the FDLE got those on March 28 from T-mobile. It includes “billing, subscriber, call detail records, and historical location data.” GZ was charged with murder on April 11. Now what more does O’Mara want?
WSI, I saw something once where Angela Corey was being asked something about the case and she made some sly comment about there being one witness who saw the whole thing. I have always wondered who she was talking about. She just had this slick, sly grin like she knew something nobody else did.
@Qetno, yeah, I remember Angela Corey’s grins. So this girl was supposed to have lived in a townhouse with a screened in porch. That crime tip report just says that on March 28 they went to RATL and couldn’t find her then. They might have found her later, otherwise, why report this in the dump? Because of her age, maybe they have been protecting her existence until this point? Remember the succession of photos taken by the FDLE and how a series of them were taken all the way down the dogwalk and near the back entrance? Wonder if that’s related, as in she might live farther south than the other witnesses and what she saw included GZ way down where he never claimed to be? Ah, the mystery!
Wouldn’t that be something if it explains why they took the MO bank photos into evidence? Curious, no?
@Lonnie, Sorry, I don’t get your connection between the girl and the bank photos/video, can you clarify?
The connection would be if she saw Osterman out there somewhere as well.
We know he came into the area, we just don’t know when he arrived.
“I would like to hear from an expert that the sound we hear is incompatibel with the sound of GZ racking his gun. For now we don’t have conclusive evidence that the sound we hear is not compatible with GZ racking his gun.”
I found a YouTube video that purports to offer the sound of a Kel-Tec being racked, obtained from some gun-enthusiast site or something, compared it to the clicking sound, and claimed they were the same. EXCEPT THEY’RE NOT. Assuming the sample of the Kel-Tec is legit, and that all Kel-Tec’s sound more or less the same, the clicking is definitely NOT a Kel-Tec. Every sound has what’s called an ‘envelope’, which refers to how it rises and falls over time. Think of the difference between staccato and legato, but in a shorter time frame. The clicks on the NEN call are impact sounds, something hitting something else. They have a very sharp attack, no sustain and a rapid decay. The Kel-Tec sounds are more consistent with two surfaces moving against each other quickly: scraping or sliding. The attack is not as sharp, and there’s a clear sustain before the decay.
Would you just “walk fast” away from someone, and then turn and ask, “Why are you following me?” if that person had a gun in their hand? Let’s give Trayvon credit for a little common sense here…
this site has alot of the 9th discovery items to view
Much better then OS
I think the gun was pulled when the screams got more intense. It’s also around the time when it sounds like someone starts saying no, stop, and don’t.
Makes sense to me.
I think so too. If he racked the gun, that doesn’t mean that he was walking around with the gun in his hand when he encountered Trayvon. I think it is more likely that he was checking the state of the gun.
I put this recording together myself https://soundcloud.com/mirrw/loading-gun.
First one from the nen call, second one from this youtube video http://youtu.be/_PAqHSWww3E.
I didn’t suggest GZ had his gun out when he encountered Trayvon.
Many people carry the gun without a bullet in the chamber, so he may have racked the gun and put it back in his holster.
If he had done that, he would have had to then have had to eject the clip and insert another bullet and put it back in the gun in order to have had as many bullets left in the gun as he did after firing it the once.
The clip was full minus the one round which was loaded by the recoil of the fired shot.
The more likely explanation is that he had a full clip and a round chambered ready to fire with just a pull of the trigger.
Or he changed the magazine. When he was taken into custody, he had 3 fully loaded magazines in his car. That gun has a lot of problems. He may have been insecure about the proper functioning in case he needed it. Did he have the opportunity to change the magazine after he got of the phone? I say yes. Is that what he did? I don’t know.
You can’t see if there is a bullet in the chamber. The only way to see if there is a bullet in the chamber, is by unloading the gun, which would also mean he would be racking the gun.
I’d drop the issue if I have a convincing argument that the sound we hear is not the sound of the racking of that gun.
I don’t think that it makes a huge difference in the case against GZ other than that it would mean he lied about that he forgot that he was carrying a gun.
I don’t know what exactly he did, but to state that it is not possible that he racked his gun is just not factual.
He had extra clips in a rental car after he and his family had started getting death threats.
We have no way of knowing what he had in his truck that night because the police didn’t know to impound it and it got driven away by his wife.
I agree we have no way of knowing that, but we also don’t know that he didn’t. You are speculating just as I am.
But the circumstances under which extra clips were found in the rental car were so different that their presence implies nothing about what was in his truck that Sunday night in February.
@ unitron, It’s true that circumstances of when GZ was arrested were different than on the night of Feb. 26. However, anyone could also argue that the circumstances of Feb. 26 was different than normal as well. We don’t know that except for his assertion and that of his friends (Ostermans) that he always carried his gun with him. GZ may well carry a loaded gun in his pants most of the time, but he’s human (at least the DNA evidence says he is) and can exhibit variable behaviors. The evidence for that is unlike in previous NEN calls where he did wait for police, this time he didn’t.
To quote part of willis’ favorite mantra “many things are possible…” So just for fun and so I can push your buttons a little :)……… The recent docs showed that the gun was actually purchased by Shellie. It may be that she used her credit card, and that’s all that means. Or what if it was her gun. There was a third DNA contributor found on the holster and gun after all. She may have left it in his truck from the last time they went shooting at the range. They said she got a gun to protect herself from a dog, but maybe Shellie’s not really such a gun fanatic and didn’t carry it with her fully loaded. When he saw TM running, it was an “OH, SH$T” moment which caused him to jump out of the truck, grabbing whatever he could at the moment shoving it into his pockets or pants. He wasn’t a madman waving his gun around in public, but there could have been a moment when he was standing there in the dark that he thought he would not be seen if he just slipped out his gun to get it ready.
Mind you, I don’t believe this anymore than any other theory because there’s just not enough evidence, but the imagination can be fertile, eh?
Yes, that could be a reason why he changed behavior. I think that a person who habitually has his gun loaded to capacity with a bullet in the chamber, and carrying a tactical flashlight, would also bring additional clips. But I can’t claim to know that for a fact.
GZ’s jacket was zipped close in the police car photo. A person who doesn’t want to risk the fraction of time it takes to rack the gun when needed, would have his jacket open. The time that may be lost unholstering his gun because his clothes got in the way, is way more substantial than having to rack the gun.
I could point to that fact as proof that he didn’t have his gun holstered. Maybe you would tell me that that doesn’t mean his jacket was zipped up at the time of the encounter, and I would agree with you.
All of our speculations about GZ’s likely behaviour are just that, speculations. There is only one fact, and that is that sound.
I would love to see a good analysis of that sound. And I definitely can be pursuaded that the sound is not the racking of a kel tec pf9. Any of the other speculations, your guess is as good as mine.
He also didn’t get another kel tec pf9. The gun he had trained with and “saved” his life when he needed it.
One other thing. I don’t think that if that is the sound of GZ racking his gun, that means he was walking around with his gun drawn, intent on killing Trayvon.
I found those videos and blogs very enlightening about how these gun fanatics think and behave. It is hard to find one where the issue of preparedness for that one moment, doesn’t come up. The other subject is a possible failure of the gun. That gun he was carrying, was a cheap piece of shit.
They also love practicing the “draw”. It was as if watching old westerns.
If that was GZ racking his gun, it was to check the state of the gun and he would’ve holstered it again, when satisfied.
Another frequent argument is about a problem with some of the magazines. This gun ejects the magazine when empty, but this gun has a problem with ejecting the magazine, when it isn’t supposed to. The arguments about why this occurs, are as fierce as the pro/anti Zimmerman arguments. Some blame the shooter, some the gun, others the magazines.
I think GZ was on his way or already reached his truck, when he ended the nen call. He last saw Trayvon running and he spend another 1 min 30 sec talking to the nen operator. It would make sense that he wanted to use his car to see if Trayvon was still in the complex.
OMG. I just read West’s Motion to Compel on the DeeDee recording. Obviously, no one on the defense team knows anything about audio. West’s assertion that the recording released in discovery is bad because it was dubbed via ‘air-coupling’ (a mic recording the playback from a speaker) of a clear original is just nonsense. I am quite sure the recording released IS Crump’s ‘original’ from the conversation that is audible when DeeDee is NOT on the phone. They’re in a live (echo-y) room, and they have DeeDee on speakerphone, and Crump is trying to record that on his little hand-held voice recorder. At the beginning of the recording, the really bad part, I think DeeDee is also on speakerphone, so there’s room echo on both ends.
Nowhere in West’s motion does he mention that the soundbites played on various newscasts are distinctly more intelligible than the discovery tape, and also contain phrases that are not on the discovery tape at all. What a tool!
Folks, Matt Gutman is a broadcast journalist at a major network. He works with cameras and microphones every day. I simply cannot imagine A) that he would not know Crump’s little voice recorder would get nothing but garbage in that situation, B) that he would rely on an amateur to be the only person to record sound of an interview. I would guess that Gutman’s “assistant” whose name Mr. Crump cannot remember, was his camera-person/techie. TV journalists generally go out on two-person crews: the reporter and a camera operator. I would shocked if the camera operator did not have a telephone tap of one sort or another as part of his/her standard kit, as well as a small professional quality audio recorder. It would simply be professional negligence for ABC NOT to have used such a rig under these conditions. Neither Gutman nor Crump has said that ABC did NOT make it’s own recording (perhaps DeeDee’s parents would not have allowed it, but that makes no sense, because they would not know that Crump’s recording would be so bad, and that he would fumble with the buttons to the point where he failed to record a significant chunk of the conversation).
I doubt the Court will compel Mr. Crump to surrender his recorder, and the best West is likely to get with that motion is an affadavit from Crump that the discovery recording is ‘original’ and identifying the means by which the recording was copied from Crump’s recorder to whatever media they passed to FDLE. (I’d guess the recorder makes .MP3 files, and they transferred them to a PC and emailed them.)
I have a hunch that at one point, if not now, there were TWO recordings of the DeeDee interview on Mr. Crump’s recorder, the “original” he made himself during the interview, and a copy of the ABC recording that Gutman gave him after they discovered how bad the recording actually was. It is my belief that the recording Crump played via his little recorder at the press conference was not the recording he made during the interview, but rather just such a copy of the ABC recording.
I am sure there’s SOMETHING going on here, though I have no idea what, or whether it’s nefarious, or just some minor gamesmanship within the legal or journalistic professions. But, if so, it seems Mr. West couldn’t find it with a road map and a searchlight and a giant neon sign.
What do you think about their claim that DeeDee is actually 18? Have they released any more info on that?
I’d have to believe that she is 18 as stated in West’s motion. They said she gave her birthdate in BDLR’s interview which is redacted. There was also that little exchange they (MOM and BDLR) about DeeDee being 18, where BDLR said “I never said she was a minor”. That whole thing is absurd (that is, the defense and treepers making a big deal over her age). Whether she’s 8, 18, or 81, she still heard what she heard. If Mr. Crump and ABC were initially mistaken, then so what? They probably didn’t even see her face to face and I’m sure they never asked for a birth certificate before making that initial report.
Excellent post Whonoze. That clears up alot for me. BTW, Matt gutman did tweet about this. If I find the screen grab, will post for you. I don’t tweet, so I have to hunt for it.
I have a request for the videographer. Rationale first, then suggestion.
Something that’s come up here may help explain how GZ re-encountered TM. I refer to the discussion of the locks on the units at RATL. People following the case have generally assumed that TM could have gotten back into the Green home via the back door, but the info on the locks suggests he would have had to enter from the front.
So, if TM flees from GZ down the dog-walk, “running from the back because it’s more easier,” at some point he would have had to cut over to RVC. There would be three points where he could have done so: 1. South of the building containing Green’s unit, along the lower leg of TTL; 2. the cut-through just North of the building containing Green’s unit; or 3. the cut-through just North of the middle building on the block. I doubt it would be #1 — what teenager walks the long way round when a shortcut is available, especially one trying to avoid a creepy creeper.
Now, some of us have been conjecturing that GZ did not follow TM down the dog-walk, but did indeed head over to RVC — not to look for an address, but to attempt to see if Trayvon was heading out the back gate. So after he stops running, GZ continues to walk South on RVC because he suspects that’s the direction the “asshole” is heading. Suddenly, Martin would have appeared in front of him coming through the cut-through, and GZ would have been following him again.
So, even though “he near his dad’s house” at this point, he concludes it’s a bad idea to let the crazy man know where he lives so he takes the next opportunity — either the cut-through North of Green’s building, or he actually walks past his front door down to TTL — turns back West to go back to the dog-walk, and then turns North up the sidewalk. This is a pretty normal thing to do if you think you’re being followed — move in a circle and see if your pursuer stays with you.
In this scenario, it’s possible that Trayvon does emerge in front of GZ at the point where GZ interrupts Sean to say “Actually, could you have them call me?”
The request, then, is for the videographer to walk out these possible paths to get a sense of the timing.
1. From the T, head over to RVC, turn South, walk down to TTL, turn West, walk over the dog walk, turn North and walk to John’s back yard.
2. Similar but with a shortcut: From the T, head over to RVC, turn South, walk down to the cut-through just North of Green’s building, turn West, walk over the dog walk, turn North and walk to John’s back yard.
Of course the men would not have been walking a constant speed over such a path. I would assume they would have been moving slowly at first, and then faster as Trayvon picked up his walking pace, and GZ actually ran again to catch up to the longer-legged teenager. But a walk through at a normal crisp pace throughout ought to give a general sense…
Anybody else think this scenario makes sense?
Based on the theory (more like immutable law of the universe) that a kid either takes a shortcut or makes one, I’d like to see a comparison between leaving Taaffe’s yard and walking up RVC in front of the clubhouse, and leaving his yard and cutting behind (south of) )the clubhouse pool (there’s a sidewalk there) to TTL.
Video being worked on. I have no concrete timeframe, I was informed that it will include from Taaffe, to Mailbox, to T. Extra footage of Mailbox Area and Pool Area. I hope Santa comes with down my chimmney with this for Xmas. 🙂
Not enough coffee, should read, I hope Santa comes down my chimmney with this video for Xmas. 🙂
I used to think Trayvon entered through the cut-through near Taaffe. But that route is actually longer to get to his home than coming in through the front gate.
The other problem I see is that any route other than the front gate, Trayvon would have been passing one of the clubhouse cameras. There is no sign of him on any of these videos. If he took the path you described, we should have seen him on the eph video if not on the ep video.
There were two cameras pointed at windows facing north on RVC, on which you can see cars passing on the road. The front door camera records the reflection of one of the pilars of the front entrance, I would’ve expected to see a reflection of a person passing by the front door.
If Trayvon walked either past the front of the clubhouse or the back of the clubhouse, shouldn’t he have wound up on at least one of the clubhouse cameras?
Yes, if he had past the clubhouse on RVC he should’ve been seen on the kitchen or game room videos. If he would’ve taken the path along side the pool, he should’ve been seen on the eastpoolhall video and probably on the eastpool video.
We know Trayvon was standing in the mail area. Just before the nen call a car stops in front of the mail boxes. When the nen calls begins that car makes a uturn on TTL and stops near the first bend facing the mail area. Seconds after the car stops, GZ said, “now he is coming towards me”. Trayvon would’ve have to pass by GZ’s car to get home. All this matches DD’s statements.
If you check this video at 36 sec you can see the mailboxes. Everything that passes that small path going under the mailarea towards the eastpoolhall, is captured on the eph video. If you watch the video a little longer, the camera shows the path from the front gate towards the mail area and you can see that that path doesn’t pass any of the camera’s.
A pedestrian on the other side of the street from the clubhouse on RVC would not be caught on the videos either.
Probably not and I considered that. But if Trayvon took the cut-through, the shortest route would’ve been to cross RVC at the cut-through. Just take a look at the map again.
curious, google maps seems to show that he could have left Rinehart road much earlier, to follow the shelter offered in the western community, that would place him closer to the FT cut through. Obviously, if he stayed on Rinehart up to the point shown on this map, he’d be better off to use the front gate.
The data that was posted by Tchoupi and others seems to indicate that the rain was increasing all the way from the store. That would make it seem that TM would take the route that offered opportunities to take shelter, in case the rain suddenly got harder, than to stay on Rinehart where there is no shelter ops.
If Martin came in via the cut through on that map marked with the red line (is that the one by Taaffe’s house), his shortest route back to Ms. Green’s would be south on RVC and then east on that short street, Lone Tree, Lone Pine, something like that.
The mail kiosk would be way out of his way, especially if he went there by way of in front of (north of) the clubhouse.
For somebody that was up to something he sure did go to a lot of trouble to make himself visible to Zimmerman.
True, but on a rainy night, where the rain was increasing in intensity since he’d left 711, he wouldn’t be so concerned with taking the shortest route, but trying to stick to the route that offered the best chance to shelter from the rain. I doubt he’d have felt comfortable sheltering in doorways along the route, so he planned to arrive at the mailboxes, and decide when to move on from there. It wasn’t like he’d have a long boring wait anywhere, he had his girlfriends company to pass the time.
Possible, I was hoping that community had cameras. But, I have some doubts whether a black teenager would walk inside a community in the dark and rain, where he was a stranger. I did try to get a good look at street level google maps to see if it would offer an obvious good opportunity to get out of the rain. And I didn’t see any, unless it was a front porch.
Yes, that is the cut-through near Taaffe’s. I don’t think he used the cut-through. DD said he ran into the mailarea because it started to rain. The phone disconnected while he was running and when she called him back he was in the mailarea. The phonerecords show that was at 6:54 pm. The gates close at 7 pm. GZ did not get to TTL until 7:08:50.
I think GZ never saw Trayvon entering the complex, that is why his story doesn’t make any sense. GZ thought that Trayvon was up to no good and he may have assumed that he came in via the cut-through because that is how the “bums” always came in.
I think the most likely scenario is that he got a tip. I don’t think it was Taaffe or Osterman, more likely somebody who lives in the community. There were six cars that past the mail area while driving on TTL after 6:54 and before GZ got there. His name and telephone number were in the newsletter as the nbw person, and he handed out cards with his telephone number on it.
If he was called the prosecution knows about it. If that person knew where he lived and dropped by his house, I hope the prosecution canvassed the area. There aren’t that many people who would use TTL to get to and from the north gate.
Will drinking my second cup of coffee, nectar of the Gods, I was looking into the dumps for that report regarding the state of TM sweatshirt. Instead I get sidetracked when I see a report, regarding the camaras. What I didn’t remember was that an agent had taken pictures of the clubhouse and the exterior cameras. They released all those pictures taken of TTL and the T, almost 200 pictures. Did the defense received this in discovery already? If so, where is our copy?
I haven’t seen them. I would love to see those photos.
Pages 87 & 88
He describes where the camaras are located and that he took pictures of the clubhouse.
I hope the state does a tic for tac, your bloody picture for a Trayvon Picture @ the mailboxes.
Those photo’s would be great. They probably would provide a better quality view of what the cameras were capturing. The media has to buy the documentation and they don’t release all of it.
I would request a FOIA if it was SPD. I don’t think FDLE will honor a request because its still an ongoing investigation on their part.
These must be the ones – I think I counted 201 photos.
FDLE Neighborhood Photos
EXACTLY! We got all of those, not the pictures of the clubhouse and the exterior cameras. Pictures that were taken but not released to the public. Its page 87 & 88 of 284.
Click to access Trayvon_Martin_George_Zimmerman_Documents_given_to_the_Defendant_R.pdf
Yes. Makes sense. I remember from the reenactment video where GZ tells the investigator/police while walking by or towards the “T” ,( listen forward from 5:40)
“I looked around and didn’t see anybody so, I thought I could still… , right there he almost slipped up. He catches himself. But he already slipped up IMO. What I think he was going to say was “I didn’t see anybody, so I thought I could still SEE HIM, by going thru or to RVC. But then he would be following, pursuing, instead of just going in the same direction, or as he says getting an address. Your scenario is worthy of looking into. I will copy your post and forward along.
They found no key on TM. Yet the houses require both a code and a key to get in the front door. Thus, it’s extremely more likely that TM simply left the patio door, ever so slightly ajar or unlocked and pulled shut. If so, that’s how he intended to re enter the house. But seeing GZ behind him again, he would not feel safe going in, because the patio door is just glass. GZ could simply break in and TM and Chad would be at risk. Remember TM is no coward, he successfully rescued his father from a burning house, throwing his own personal safety to the winds.
I believe he’d move away from the house, rather than seek safety inside and put Chad at risk. But that’s just my guess.
W19 had just finished unloading groceries from her car. Her car must have been the one entering the north gate at 20:39 or just past 7:07 pm. She must have been on RVC during those crucial minutes. Always bothered me why she wasn’t asked if she saw or heard something prior to the incident.
She would certainly be worth asking a few pointed questions, seeing as how she drove though that area 2 minutes before the NeN call began and while TM was sheltering in the mail area. Where was GZ when she came in? Would she know GZ’s truck?
If that was her car, GZ would have been driving east on RVC at about the same time. They weren’t passing each other. I don’t think she would’ve noticed it. I am more interested how much time she spend unloading her car. She could very well have been outside when Trayvon was running and when GZ claimed he was on RVC checking for an address. Seeing a person running or tapping his flashlight a couple of houses over, would leave more of an impression than another car on the road.
regarding Singleton and the brief “summary” FDLE report recently released:
I don’t think this FDLE report is representative of a “debriefing interview” by the FDLE going over the case with Singleton. It seems more like something written up to address a specific question – was GZ given preferential treatment by the SPD?
More importantly, it’s a summary of an inquiry by the FBI, not the state FDLE. The FDLE has the document because the FBI shared it with them, not because they did the inquiring.
Keep in mind the specific focus of the FBI’s work on this case was limited to finding out if GZ violated Trayvon Martin’s civil rights. The FBI did NOT conduct a sweeping review of the SPD and their potential corruption or institutional racism, etc.
But that’s just my two cents. I was quite interested in this document when all we knew about it was that FDLE had an interview with Singleton and produced a written summary that would be part of discovery. Sadly, it’s not the in depth report I would have hoped for.
The focus of what the FBI investigators are writing about seems to be centered on the potential of GZ getting preferential treatment from SPD, and their suspicions were aroused by a note found on GZ’s phone, which reads like an excerpt from an email sent from GZ-in-exile back to someone he was getting advice from. (I wonder who this might be? The Ostermans? Seems less likely than his wife or sister, but the letter seems written to multiple parties at that same address, IMO, due to the phrase “you all” at the beginning. )
“I have told you all everything that has transpired, do you really believe I would omit the fact that a narcotics officer guided me. My mom feels the jury will be tainted. The attorney said we could have the media kicked out from the gated community. I couldn’t think of a better outcome. I called to appease my father, the attorney said not to make any comments as you did.”
Knowing what we know of the timeline, I think the attorney(s) mentioned are the ones GZ flirted with prior to retaining O’Mara. The call that appeased GZ’s father may have been a call to Serino, or the infamous call to Corey herself.
Singleton defended herself against the idea of giving preferential treatment probably by saying “I have no idea what he’s talking about,” and eventually recalling that she did tell him “to make sure he was clear on the written statement he provided.”
The FDLE’s copy of this FBI report makes note of the fact that she was not on the scene, which is another issue that might concern an investigator who was wondering about a possible “conspiracy” or “good old boy” network handling of the case.
Beyond the final interview conducted with GZ, we don’t really know what SIngleton thought of the case, and she didn’t speak freely in that interview, either. We’ve only really heard her playing “good cop” so far. I hope she testifies in the trial. She spent the most time with GZ of anyone at the SPD, and surely must have a strong opinion on his credibility. I think she saw him as a self-serving liar, but I’d like to hear it straight from the horse’s mouth, as they say.
****MY THEORY on how GZ’s “bloody nose” pic demonstrates TM was defending himself ****
GZ claims that TM decked him first and he fell back the first time or stumbled and flyswatted his way down 50 feet or whatever. OK. In that picture, the swollen part of the nose is on his right side which means that TM would have had to hit him using his left hand. A small abrasion was found on TM’s left hand. Watch the 7-11 video of TM. It’s not obvious, but he pulls out money and handles a bill with his right hand. More telling though is just before he leaves the store, he walks back and picks something up off the floor with his right hand. He’s gotta be right-handed. Now GZ is known to be left-handed (clearly seen on the videos at the police station, LLMPapa also has a video about it). Remember DeeDee saying that she heard TM say “get off, get off”? I think GZ uses his left hand to grab TM’s right arm, maybe trying to get at the bag to see what he’s got. Regardless, this was an act of aggression from a creepy stalker in the dark, and IF (that’s an IF) TM swung back and hit GZ, he could only have done it with his LEFT HAND OUT OF SELF-DEFENSE. If you were the aggressor, would you use your weaker/non-dominant arm to punch first? Think not. I rest my case your honor. *******
Gee, where else was it I heard that theory before about left handed George grabbing Trayvon’s right arm leading him to use his left fist to hit the right side of George’s nose?
It sounds so familiar.
: – )
Not claiming to be the one and only one with this thought, just emphasizing that it’s a theory that just popped in my head. OK, maybe others have said the same thing before, but I”m slow 🙂 I haven’t just read the same theory in relation to this newly released pic.
I my opinion, if GZ grabbed TM’s arm at that point, he’d probably immediately apply a wrist lock or other painful move he’d learned from his LEO friends, including The Osterman Resource.
Now a real thug will maintain his decorum and show his maturity by quietly grunting and groaning his submission. While an immature kid would scream out in pain for his momma. GZ would be able to tells that he had a helpless child by the arm, because of the lack of substantial resistance and the weakness of the reflex response. Since no thug would call for his momma, GZ would know that this child’s demeanor, is not going to be overcome by a story about a vicious assault. There is a very good reason that directors take pains to cast actors for parts. If the actor fails to present as capable of violence, the project will fail. You don’t cast Pee Wee Herman as Scarface!
Make that; “You don’t cast Pee Wee Herman as Scarface… Unless you’re going for comedic values!”
Did you ever see Pee Wee Herman on Murphy Brown?
I think he could play a psycho villain most chillingly.
I didn’t see him on Murphy Brown, but moments after I wrote that, it occurred to me that he’d make one hell of a Norman Bates character, eh?
I was just messin’ with ya.
But I did offer it as a theory several months back when both handednesses were made known and the cop shop photos showing the broken skin on the right hand side of his nose came out.
Notice I said theory, not religious belief.
@ unitron, Oh, I didn’t remember reading that from you, so then I say you were well ahead of the curve. But don’t let that get inflate your ego 🙂
Trayvon was right handed. Page 37 second doc dump.
Being a left handed person I find this interesting. If you also note in the video of GZ explaining what happen you will see him show with his right hand how he tries to prevent TM from getting the gun. I did a little experiment and found myself naturally going to the left side of my face. Also remember the injuries to GZ were not serious, good shock effect but not serious. The only medical report showed the injuries were healing and GZ nose was “likely’ broken but also noted was the cartigde in the nose was not broken. I tend to also believe GZ injuries were self inflected.
There is not a drop of GZ’s blood on Trayvon’s hoody. GZ was straddling Trayvon, while pushing on his back for about 40 sec. At some point I thought he may have caused the injuries on the back of his head, because 2 witnesses say they saw him walking away from the body, while putting his hand on his head. I thought the entire broken nose thing was a load of bull. This photo shows his nose about 5 hours after the incident.
But when I read w18’s description of how he put his hand on his head I discarded that idea.
This is what w18 said about GZ when he got up and walked away from the body:
“she said he took a weird stance which she demonstrated by partially bending over and placing her bladed hand on top of her forhead ( as if peering in the distance).
Either way it doesn’t look as if the injury was caused by a fist, because of its shape and placement. If it was a fist you should see some marking on the eyesocket.
You remind me of the weird stance he took, as if peering into the distance. I’d like to know which direction he was looking. Seems to me like he was seeking the moral support of someone being still there with him. For sure it wasn’t the police he expected to arrive any minute, since he’d see their lights first, before they got out of their car.
Who ever it was he was looking for, is sure to have heard the shot, and lit out of there like a bat out of hell. He wouldn’t go out the front gate either, because he’d also know that the police were on their way, assuming he knew about the NeN call. So he’d flee out the back gate. If it was Osterman, he’d circle back around and re-enter through the front gate, pretending to be on his way to visit GZ, when the police activity caught his eye.
The only problem I have with that is, there’s no evidence, other than GZ’s self serving story, that TM took any defensive measures at all. Exactly what you’d expect of a immature youth being seriously cowed by an angry and confrontational adult, who was also bigger, stronger and more confident as well as armed.
Hardly a wonder then that there’s no trace found on TM’s hands, he simply could not find the psychological presence of mind to make his hand useful in any way. Remember as a male, it is more humiliating to be slapped than punched! TM could probably guess that his weak ineffective strike would only do more to enrage his assailant than do anything effective. Why would he want to enrage his attacker? Obviously TM doesn’t have either the muscle mass or the training needed to strike an effective blow.
While GZ presents like the “Michelin Man” or the Pillsbury Doughboy, too big and soft a target for a blow to have any effect. TM’s only defensive action is to ask “why are you following me?” in the hopes that there is a reasonable explanation for this mess, so it can be made to end. It cannot be made to end because GZ refuses to desist and open his hostile actions to examination or discussion. Which can only mean that GZ is set on accomplishing something else.
Respectfully Lonnie, we don’t have to paint a picture of TM as a “seriously cowed immature youth” and GZ as the “Michelin Man” to get a the truth that TM was the victim in this case. Let’s be realistic, the fight or flight response in people can be powerful and nature’s way of allowing normally non-violent people like TM to defend themselves against a stranger following him in the dark. It’s not inconsistent to say that he got in a punch. What IS inconsistent is that GZ got no black eyes or bruising from the supposed punch from a fowl-mouthed thug that knocked him to the ground.
Yes, but TM throwing any punch at all, is inconsistent with his passive nature and the helplessness he would experience in his fear of GZ. He spoke, as his “reflex” to the encounter, and the evidence shows he never contacted GZ with his hands.
If he had the nerve to wage any physical assault on GZ, it is reasonable to expect that assault would be vigorous and continuous until it was caused to abate. For TM to throw a punch that could knock down, someone as heavy as GZ, it would have to be packed with effective power and a very good aim. TM’s age is characterized as still being uncoordinated. Such that, without training, he could not expect a fight or other physical activity on his part, to have any hope of success.
I guess I’m saying that TM’s psychological barriers to fisticuffs runs really high. High enough to preclude any sensible vision of such an attack.
Many things are possible. What GZ claims happened is not possible.
What matters in a court of law is what can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury by the prosecution. Sorry to be a broken record on these points, but speculation is just that, speculation.
While I can appreciate Lonnie’s theory about GZ self-inflicting his injuries, I fail to see how it can be proven in court beyond a reasonable doubt, which places it firmly in the area of speculation, where it remains until proof surfaces.
There I can agree, the tautology of it is strong, but the evidence for it is “interpretive” at best. It is based on assuming what would be necessary, if GZ had a plan to confront and detain, and still not be charged with a crime there for. Because a counter claim would be absolutely necessary in that event.
Thus, it appears to me, that some are saying in effect, that GZ would plan to confront and detain, despite NW rules and despite the laws, and only hope that something that could be used as evidence of a counter claim, would fortuitously appear, either by accident, or by him having time to design it.
In my experience criminals don’t leave their necessities to chance, they prepare them in advance to ensure that they will be there.
What you’re suggesting is that Zimmerman prepared to go forth and commit premeditated murder. And I just can’t get behind that; to refer to Zimmerman as a criminal before the fact is an approach too close for comfort to the spectacular allegations about Trayvon found in other quarters.
As I wrote at Fred’s about this theory, it’s a lot more credible to think that Zimmerman came across Trayvon, called the NEN, and, wanting so much to not let this “asshole get away,” pursued Trayvon in order to keep him from ‘escaping.’ As often happens when someone gets too aggressive, events refused to bow to his expectations, and his anger and/or fear went into overdrive. How he got those injuries is not so important as having evidence showing that Trayvon did not assault him, or knowing that his explanations for them are extraordinarily absurd.
You provide great commentary both here and at Fred’s, but this one is simply too ‘out there’ for me. Sorry.
Re-reading my first sentence, I want to add that, while it could not be proven, I do believe Zimmerman committed premeditated murder – just not in the manner you describe. I don’t believe he killed Trayvon with an immediate fear of great harm or death, but that he chose to kill when he finally realized that he was in deep doo-doo. There appears to be no legal time limit in defining premeditation, so a minute, or even less, would be premeditated in these circumstances.
Well that sounds better. No strawman!
But then, as I said before and as I asked.
How, exactly, do you envision he could go out to follow, confront and detain someone, and simply hand them over to the police, without being able to say that he saw them commit any crime?
How could he “win” in such a case? He’d be guilty of committing felonies himself under those circumstances.
Any explanation as to how he might accomplish this?
Hold it right there a minute:
“What you’re suggesting is that Zimmerman prepared to go forth and commit premeditated murder. And I just can’t get behind that;”
Where did I suggest that Zimmerman was preparing to commit premeditated murder? We recognize statements like that, as being “straw men”, and forgive us if we’re touchy about the trolls who often use them.
So, before I argue the point again, show me that you’re not attempting to set up a straw man and show me where I claim GZ was going to commit a premeditated murder. In fact, I didn’t even suggest it. But, go ahead, show me where!
Moderator please monitor this thread.
First, I’m not a troll, and no strawman argument was intended.
Second, I apologize; re-reading both your comment here and your theory on Fred’s blog, I realize that you’re speculating not that Zimmerman injured himself so that he’d have cause for killing Trayvon, but, rather, that he’d have a legal reason and credible explanation for detaining Trayvon. Again, my apologies.
And, last, I remain highly doubtful that Zimmerman planned anything.
Okay! What provoked me was when you state that I was implying that… etc, when I was implying no such thing. You explained that was a paragraph badly written and did not reflect your views correctly. No problem. I don’t mind that you have beliefs that differ with my views, I have to take exception when people say I said what I did not say, and attempt to beat me with it. So that’s what at first blush, it seemed like was being attempted.
As far as your doubts that GZ planned anything. I’ll leave that view to your further reading. I’m certain you will come across credibly evidence of GZ making plans, that I’m sure you’ll lose that impression without me having to argue the point. Be well.
Come on Lonnie,
Your theory is a quite speculative. I don’t think there is any reason to call nemerynis a troll.
Oh, I don’t have a problem with adverse opinion, it was when he said that I was saying/implying, when I said/implied nothing of the sort, as he later agreed. The stir was caused by a paragraph he had miswritten. As it was written it appeared to be setting up a strawman. We are all so familiar with how such routines play out, so that’s what stirred my pot.
He caught it and explained that what he wrote was not what he meant. So all is good!
Dave’s 2nd Video Walk-Through
Thanks nemerinys for the post, and to Loree for helping to send messages to Dave. Would like to see what LLMPapa does with this video. On his blog, Dave says there are fences up now to prevent pedestrians through the community and there are locks on the pedestrian gates. It does look now there’s some sort of lock over the knob handle on the front pedestrian gate where there seemed to be just a hole there before (I posted some pictures about this up thread somewhere). It may be that they put the lock there since the shooting but don’t know that for sure. I think only a resident can answer for sure whether a lock was on that gate back on Feb 26.
I too am very interested in LLMPapa will do.
I wonder do you think its too early to have a tequilla shot with a Corona back? 🙂
Too early in the day, or too early in this case? I think both. But heck, if you can’t wait til dinner or next summer, then go right ahead my dear!
Well, maybe I’ll wait for the old man to get home, make him take me out to Applebee’s for a Blue Sky Vodka Martini, maybe he’ll get lucky tonight. HA!
Still a little shaky afer viewing and so many thoughts are swirling in my head and in my heart. I am totally indebted to Mr. Knechel for taking on our request and see it come to fruition. I hope this help you guys with some things as far as distance, surroundings and the mailbox area. Thanks for all your help.
It’s an amazing thing you did in making this request Loree. Please give Dave Knechel our sincerest THANK YOU!. If it weren’t for my phobia about leaving this living room, I’d go to his blog and tell him myself……
Oh WSI, you have to get out a little. Believe me this is your house. You are not going to let anyone dirty your living room. Go next door to the neighbors (Leathermans, Knechel, Blackbutterfly). They are very nice neighbors. Shoot the breeze with them. I would love to see you out there. As Leatherman says, “Come in, the water is fine.”
Professor Leatherman seemed to start out sane, but once he decided he could make money off of this tragedy he seems to have gone off the deep end, and only group think is allowed.
I agree that he’s given ground to the commenters, some of whom are shamefully as demeaning of Zimmerman, of neutral or questioning commenters, and of conspiracy theories as one would find on sites-too-idiotic-to-name. I’ll go with ‘Zimmermites’ and ‘Trayvonites’, just for the biblical references to tribal warfare, but ‘Zimmerthug’ and ‘Zimmer-idiot,’ as well as other names I find inexplicable, is a bit too much, IMO. I was extremely embarrassed how they treated you a few threads back.
I was a bit surprised at his joining in the piling on until I saw the next thread he started which mentioned wanting to use the blog to generate income for himself.
If he’d said he was looking to offset the costs of keeping the blog online that wouldn’t have had the sound of “I think I see a way to make a buck off of this kid’s death”.
Come on Unitron, I get weirded out about requests for donations too, but it’s his blog. You don’t honestly think he’s trying to “profit” from the kids death do you?
As to GZ following TM the night GZ shot TM there now is a audio that reports earlier in one of the many 911 calls GZ made to the Police, one is of him reporting TM. Perhaps GZ did commemt murder one, he may have know TM before.
I don’t see where it says that TM was one of the people he was calling about. Do we even know that TM was at RATL in August?
Go look at the way he worded it.
He’s an attorney, and should know to choose his words carefully.
In reference to Leatherman’s post: “I would like to add some regular contributors and figure out a way to generate income for myself, the regular contributors and to fund some scholarships and contribute to progressive causes. I also would like the blog to be an important instrument for progressive change.”
@Unitron, Sounds like some pretty good intentions to me. You’re getting hung up on the words “generate income for myself.” Unless he’s wealthy, he can’t continue to spend so much time on the blog without being paid something,
I was under the impression that he’s at least semi-retired.
If he’d said it was to cover his out of pocket expenses keeping the blog online that would have been perfectly understandable, but yes, it’s the way he phrased it. After all his years lawyering, I’d expect him to be well aware of the importance of the way things are phrased and the need to word things so that they come out sounding like what you intended your meaning to be.
And if this had been a blog about model trains or fashion trends or a zillion other topics and he said “I started this as a hobby but now I want to try to make some money at it”, I’d have wished him luck, but we’re talking about one young man dead and another whose life and future plans are irrevocably disrupted regardless of what actually happened and regardless of any court verdict, and about some pretty unsavory emotions that have been stirred up on both “sides” of the case.
To appear to be trying to cash in on that repulses me far more than any names or abuse that were thrown at me there recently (and it was only recently that it happened to so great a degree despite my having previously posted there several times in the past months, and certainly the first time Leatherman himself jumped in to lead the mob).
I can only speak for myself. I have not called GZ, SZ, or O’mara out of their name. I usually address them by their intials, or what I can accept, he who shall not be name. I have never called them names or twisted their names. I never even call the commenters of CTH, the other word they use. I for one don’t think it’s right. No matter how much I believe GZ is guilty, I don’t think it gives me the right to do that. But I am not everyone else. I am 99.99% certain that I have not. I might laugh at a comment or something they said, but I usually stay away from that other stuff.
I do find it troubling at times, maybe I’ll shoot an email to the Professor about this. I wouldn’t want the Blog to turn into some of the other sites.
Thanks for your post, and I hope that you will continue posting there, your posts are valuable to me.
@Loree, do you mean that you don’t call commenters at the CTH “treepers”? They actually call themselves that. I don’t like name calling either, except for one, which is the “nuthouse”, because I’ve read enough of their theories (like multiple DeeDees) to suspect insanity LOL!
Yes that. treepers. I have no clue what that is. I don’t go over there.
Very scared of that house. I do remember on two occasions. I did call the gzlegalcase the begsite. I said to myself, no good, didn’t feel right. Stopped doing that. I read the things about Unitron, don’t understand that either. But I will send the Professor an email. I have concerns also of some of the rhetoric that is going on and the cursing. Now damn, hell, ok but I’m seeing pussy, and dumbass and other stuff. I know people are passionate, but it can turn ugly if you let go on and on. Now I can curse like a sailor on a three day pass, but I don’t write like that on a blog. I have manners.:smile:
It’s a shame that sometimes people do leave civility at the door, even if passions run deep in this case. (But @QETNO, I like your rants though, even if I do have to pardon your “french” 🙂 ) There are people at the extreme on both ‘sides’ who rather like the schoolyard type of picking fights by going to sites of the opposite side. So people tend to have a kneejerk reaction I guess when they suspect a “troll” and the conversation deteriorates. Luckily such attempts here don’t last very long as we saw with our recent visitor James F. He’s a “treeper” (and again, that’s what they call themselves, don’t know what it means, but it shouldn’t be derogatory). I guess we gave him too many boring civilized responses.
You’re a class act Loree, I see your message to Leatherman got him to reign in the crowd. I just might (not definite, just “might”) venture over there someday. If he wants to grow the blog and do what he intends in terms of making it an instrument of change, then he and the contributors should stay on the “high road”. (Doesn’t mean we can’t collaborate on another parody to take on the road again though… 🙂 )
Thank you for your compliment. I look forward to being on the “road again” with you anytime. 🙂
I hope you visit soon. I know you have alot to contibute. But considering what was happening I don’t blame you for not venturing out. I believe it is in the past and Mr. Leatherman will keep a close eye on it. Skimming through the posts real quick, I’ve gathered that alot of people felt the same way.
I am getting ready to watch the Fight Pacquio vs Marquez.
Will post in the morning, I’ll be ready to go full steam ahead!
Although I go to Leatherman’s often, I honestly don’t always read his posts. I generally scan the comments to get the latest news and other commentary from the contributors there. I haven’t posted there because I feel like I need to contribute monetarily and I can’t afford to, or want to honestly. I think it’s fine that he asks for donations and I doubt he’s making any profit. He’s amassed a following, and I think that people who do ask him direct questions should donate because they’re taking up his time. If he wants more income from lurkers like me, then he should just add advertisers, and I’ll click on all the banners. I have found some commentary there recently that were rather disturbing to me. I won’t get into specifics though. I am guilty of joking about GZ and company, but there should be a line and it was crossed there. So sorry, until NLME finds that I’ve been stinking up this living room a bit too much, I’m planted right here.
I don’t do Leatherman’s blog… What happened there?
I’d prefer that you read and decide for yourself.
Soliciting Your Thoughts and Recommendations to Grow this Blog and Improve It
You may agree with me, you may think I’ve overreacted or misunderstood.
And if you care about the thread where I was in the middle of getting lambasted when he posted the above:
Defense Raises Tempest in a Teapot in Trayvon Martin Murder Case
I’d have stuck it out there if not for my reaction to what he wrote in the thread I linked to at the top of this comment.
Wow, unitron. Before you posted this I was just over there reading that thread. Sorry you were called all those names (I’ll try and remember not to capitalize you). Makes me shake in my boots and confirms why I can’t leave this house.
BTW, I have to give credit where it’s due. I also just read your comment from over there dated Dec. 2 (copied below), and it sounds eerily the same as what I later posted here on Dec. 5. So that’s what you were talking about. I’m not a copy cat honestly, and hadn’t seen that comment before I made mine, but holy cow, I’m afraid I may be accused of thinking like you now! LOL!
unitron said “”I consider “Left handed Zimmerman used his left hand to grab right handed Martin’s right arm to hold him for the police (without bothering to offer any explanation for his actions), at which point Martin used his left fist (the only place on his body, other than the gunshot wound, to show any damage) at the end of his free arm to strike the right hand side of Zimmerman’s nose, which might explain that small area of broken skin to the right of Zimmerman’s nose” a plausible theory of how the struggle started, but since I wasn’t there, it’s only a theory.”
Thank you for the links to both. I was wondering about the latter link. I didn’t see anything in your comments that deserved that kind of reaction. I know this case has people’s emotions running high, but that was ridiculous.
As for that first link, I don’t know what to make of it. I don’t know much about him; I have visited that blog only a small number of times, so I don’t want to make a judgement based on just that one post.
Again, I am very happy you’re back on here posting. 🙂
(I hope I’m replying to the right thread – this gets really confusing! I much prefer flat threads).
@Loree – No, I most certainly wasn’t including you. I know the handles you use (yours and the one bestowed upon you), and you’re a sweetie both here and there. Always helpful with links and commentary.
I re-read the Leatherman link unitron provided above, and it’s worse than I remembered; I missed a lot of the threaded comments early on. I’m aghast that Fred joined in ridiculing unitron; while I still think there are some good comments to be found there, the echo chamber and disdain for challenging commentary is definitely disturbing.
@unitron – I don’t think it’s all that bad a thing to ask for donations and ideas for funding the blog. He writes that he wants to change the blog’s focus and outreach, and I believe he means it.
I meant to ask you, unitron: What do you think about the TalkLeft Zimmerman forum? I’m thinking of registering, but there’s so many different types of threads…
There’s the regular TalkLeft site and there’s the separate TalkLeft Zimmerman forum.
Since the site is run by a defense attorney, the Zimmerman forum is pretty much pro-Zimmerman, but she keeps a lid on the nastier sort of anti-Martin posts you see elsewhere, and it’s a good place to keep up on developments in the case.
You don’t have to post there, you can just lurk.
Thank you. I appreciate your kindness. I learn alot from your posts. Very well formed and very professional. Everybody here on Bcclist are critical thinkers. Except Unitron, Ha! Just kidding. I wanted to rib him a little. I will have to go to his link, and reread what happened. I do remember something going but don’t even know what it was about. I been so focused on getting information back and forth to Dave. Spreading the petition on various sites. Working on my own various projects and commenting. I think sometimes that I’m spreading myself a little thin. Which brings me to Mr. Leatherman’s discussion about donations on his website. I’ve been there for months. That icon for donations has been always there. The same for Axiom, and other sites as well. I see nothing wrong with asking the bloggers for dontions and how to move the Blog forward. I do not see it as him trying to make a profit from Trayvon’s demise. I can only imagine how much work is involved in maintaining a Blog as big as his. His Blog and Bcclist Bloggers are ALWAYS referred to as the goto place for accurate information, informative thinking and a friendly place for discussions. I want that to continue. I see how much work I do, and I don’t even have a Blog. We are all contributing to fact finding, discussing the case and hopefully persuade the powers that be to correct legal issues, social issues or anything else that may apply. Utimately that’s what we are all doing in our own small way, striving for truth and justice in this case.
That’s my two cents worth on that subject.
I am looking forward to everybody’s dissection of the second video. I am also looking forward to LLMPapa’s video of a Walk Thru with DeeDee. His post on Dave’s said he will be going to a cabin for a few days and will be working on that when he comes back. Love LLMPapa.
I am off to run errands. I will check in later with you guys.
I saw that exchange. It really surprised me that Leatherman joined in the bashing. I considered pointing out that you are an equal opportunity cynic, but since I am not a frequent poster on that blog, I didn’t think my opinion would really matter.
There are a couple of good commenters on that blog, that is why I check it out occasionally.