Debating George Zimmerman Supporters Is Worthless

I’m not sure why but I decided to get my hands dirty with some Zimmerman supporters recently on Twitter. In doing so, the obnoxiousness spilled over to the comment section of the original blog posting.

This was a mistake on 2 fronts — 1) The “debates” returned little/no results… 2) There are a handful of other loose ends I’ve been trying to tie up regarding Trayvon Martin’s murder and engaging Zimmerman supporters wasted a decent amount of time.

So, let’s take a look at the defense Zimmerman supporters offer for their confessed murderer and my responses…

“Zimmerman’s injuries are proof that he had every right to protect himself under Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense).”

If Zimmerman was attacked by Trayvon Martin – and the attack was unprovoked – Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense) could be considered by Judge Lester. However, Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense) is not applicable in this case seeing that Zimmerman unlawfully assaulted, harassed, stalked, and preyed upon Trayvon Martin before the scuffle began. Meaning, you can’t unlawfully bring on a confrontation and then be protected by Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense). And, it’s worth noting, only Zimmerman (who is accused of lying/withholding information during the bond hearing) has stated that Trayvon Martin started the scuffle.

Stand Your Ground clearly states…

A person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.

Of course, Zimmerman’s minor injuries — a LIKELY (but unconfirmed) broken nose, no brain injury/concussion, head abrasions that required no bandage the night of the shooting and warm soapy water as treatment, etc. — don’t reflect an attack that would have resulted in imminent death or great bodily harm.

Moreover, a lack of injuries/DNA on both Zimmerman’s and Trayvon Martin’s hands plus witness statements indicate there was only a mild scuffle – at worst – leading up to the fatal shot.

“Since Trayvon was acting suspicious, Zimmerman had every right to see what the unarmed teenager walking home with some snacks was up to.”

What was Trayvon Martin doing that was suspicious? Ducking under an awning during a rainstorm isn’t suspicious behavior. Wearing a hoodie during a rainstorm isn’t suspicious behavior. Running during a rainstorm isn’t suspicious behavior. Running during a rainstorm while somebody has been eerily watching you from their vehicle isn’t suspicious behavior either.

So, what was suspicious — being a black teen in a gated community? I contend that if Trayvon Martin was a white male/female, Zimmerman never watches, reports, chases, or murders him.

“If Trayvon Martin was so scared, why didn’t he just go home and lock himself inside after running away from Zimmerman?”

Brief background: I’ve settled on 2 maps (update: 4 total maps now…these 2 from 2012 and these 2 from 2013) since my original posting on March 27, 2012.

Most Zimmerman supporters that blame Trayvon for his death because he wasn’t at home when the confrontation began have only seen (some version) of this map…

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing.jpg

And, not this map (which lines up perfectly with Zimmerman’s call to police, DeeDee’s statement, Witness 2’s statement, and Brandy Green’s interview the day after the shooting)…

http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-map-911-call-timing-v-2.jpg

Update from 6/27/2013: Or these 2 additional maps from 2013… http://bcclist.com/2013/06/27/two-new-maps-of-the-george-zimmerman-and-trayvon-martin-chase/

Moreover, Trayvon’s body wasn’t found with a key on it. Was he locked out? Regardless, is it illegal to sit on your back porch, catch your breath, and talk on the phone to your friend after being chased by a creepy man? After watching a few Scream movies, I probably wouldn’t go inside my house either in fear the perpetrator/murderer would follow me inside.

“The 911 operator never told Zimmerman to stop chasing, stalking, harassing, preying upon, assaulting, etc. Trayvon Martin.”

This is one of the more baffling points Zimmerman supporters are trying to make. As everybody has heard, between the 2:24 – 2:28 mark of his 911 call, the following is said…

Operator: Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman: Yeah. [2:25]

Operator: OK. We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman: OK. [2:28]

The wind interference from Zimmerman running stops around the 2:43 mark of his call. So, he eventually stops running but not until 17 seconds after the operator tells him the Sanford Police Department doesn’t need him following Trayvon.

Note: The wind interference stopping only means Zimmerman stopped running. Meaning, especially as map 2 and Dee Dee suggests, Zimmerman continued his pursuit of his unarmed neighbor.

“The 911 operator never mentioned that Zimmerman should return to his vehicle.”

This is another baffling argument that Zimmerman supporters are trying to make…especially since Zimmerman confirms that he’ll meet the officers near the mailboxes.

Operator: OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

Zimmerman:Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

Of course, shortly after the 3:43 mark, Zimmerman realizes he’ll need to end his unlawful vigilante pursuit of Trayvon if he returns to the vehicle. So, instead, Zimmerman offers a cellphone number that the responding officers can reach him at.

Zimmerman: Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

Operator: OK, that’s no problem.

You can’t fault the operator for taking Zimmerman’s suggestion of having officers call his cellphone number since A) The operator has already told Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon at the 2:26 mark and B) Zimmerman was strangely giving horrible directions to his parked vehicle the entire call.

“Tracy Martin said it wasn’t Trayvon crying for help during the 911 call where the fatal shot was heard.”

This tidbit of info from Officer Christopher Serino comes in page 56 of the original Evidence Dump…

http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf

“On 2/28/2012 at 1030 hours, I met with Tracy S. Martin (next-of-kin) to the decedent, Trayvon Martin, and _________, at the Sanford Police Department 815 W. 13th Street. The purpose for this meeting was to provide the decedent’s next-of-kin with a status update of the progress of the investigation into the shooting death of his son, Trayon Martin.

In order to provide a better understanding to Mr. Martin as to why the individual who shot his son was not arrested and charged with homicide, I decided to allow Mr. Marlin to hear all six 911 calls received by the Seminole County Communications Center regarding the incident involving his son and George Zimmerman. In order to facilitate this, I escorted Mr. Martin and _________ from the interview room area to my work station desk. I played the recordings on my desktop, and upon playing the 911 call placed by_________ in which a voice is heard in the background yelling for help multiple times, I asked Mr. Martin if the voice calling for help was that of his son. Mr. Martin, clearly emotionally impacted by the recording, quietly responded “no”, This encounter was not audio recorded, and no further questioning in the matter was conducted. Sgt. Leon Ceisla Was present during the playing of the 911 tapes for Mr. Martin.”

What’s suspect about the above passage?

1) The fact that the 911 audio recordings weren’t played in the investigation room.

2) The fact that Tracy Martin’s supposed admission wasn’t recorded.

3) Officer Serino’s choice of defensive/hostile words (underlined) like “decided” and “encounter.”

4) The fact that the calls were played for an emotionally impaired Tracy Martin only 2 days after Trayvon was killed.

Lest we forget, the FBI can’t (yet) confirm with 100% certainty who the person is crying for help:

http://www.ktvz.com/news/31082617/detail.html

As part of an analysis released this week, the FBI did not make a final determination either way, citing several reasons, including the fact they came during “an extreme emotional state,” that there weren’t enough words to make a good comparison and that the sound quality was low and distant.

But, 2 independent experts — and I presume eventually the FBI — have confirmed the cries for help did not come from Zimmerman:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

“Zimmerman had a concealed firearms license and had every right to be armed.”

From the Neighborhood Watch Manual for the National Neighborhood Watch Program:

Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons…

http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

Trayvon Martin would be alive if Neighborhood Watch rules followed:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-14/news/os-trayvon-martin-beth-kassab-031512-20120314_1_orlando-police-block-captains-zimmerman

National Sheriff’s Association Statement on the Neighborhood Watch Tragedy in Sanford, Florida:

http://www.sheriffs.org/content/nsa-statement-nw-tragedy-fl

What other arguments have you heard from Zimmerman supporters? Feel free to leave a comment (and your response)!

This is an excellent article from theGrio:

Trayvon Martin – 15 facts you need to know about the unarmed teen shot in Sanford, Fl by vigilante George Zimmerman

Note: The comment section for this posting has been disabled. This BccList.com forum posting — see the comment section here — is where the conversation is continuing.

78 thoughts on “Debating George Zimmerman Supporters Is Worthless

  1. i have seen Martins father respond to that thing serino claimed…..Martin said he was asked could he POSITIVELY for certain say that was his sons voice and he quietly responded NO, meaning i cant say with 100% certainty it is him………NOT at all like the officer wrote he NEVER said for certain it was not his sons voice, only that he could not at that time be 100% certain it was.

    • Bill – Thank you for visiting the posting and leaving a comment. You’ve seen an article, video and/or report of Tracy answering Serino questions regarding the cries for help? There are definitely a few different ways the conversation may have gone down. Did the family or next-of-kin have anybody representing them?

      • I saw an interview early on with the father where he explained the question he was asked, the officer in his report wrote a different question from what Mr. Martin said he was asked…..his response was that he could not be certain because that was the question asked…..

    • Yes, this is routine for law enforcement. Example – you get pulled over for speeding. The officer asks you – do you know what you were doing? You respond, yes! They write on ticket that you admitted to speeding. It happens often and happened so much initially in the beginning of this investigation.

  2. As Zimmerman was not “on patrol” that night, he wasn’t in violation of any neighborhood watch guidelines by carrying his weapon or anything else he did that night.

    Which is not the same as saying everything he did was smart.

    He was especially foolish to give up the speed and mobility of his vehicle.

    It’s possible to see Zimmerman’s side without the vilification of Martin and his family and some of the amazingly acrobatic twists of logic that have been employed, but you don’t see that done much.

    unitron

    • Was anybody on patrol that night? Why didn’t Zimmerman call the 911 line if he was off patrol? Why are the Sheriffs and Neighborhood Watch Groups reacting like they are towards Zimmerman’s mistakes? Our thoughts should be with the Martin family is the general consensus.

      • Because 911 isn’t for “can you have a patrol car swing by”, it’s for “something just happened and lives are in immediate danger”.

        My thoughts are with keeping the facts separated from the opinions, theories, and mis-information, and keeping the opinions and theories within the bounds established by the facts.

        unitron

  3. i think what is confusing is that Zimmermans supporters keep claiming he is neighbourhood watch, it was his duty to follow this “suspicious” character etc. but then when hit with the argument that he should not have followed the “suspect” and should not be carrying his gun on NW duty his supporters say “but he wasn’t on duty”….so which one is it? did he have a right to follow because he is NW or was he not NW that night? It can’t be both.

    I agree with onlyiamunitron in that it is (or at least should be) possible to support zimmerman without the vilification of the Martins but it is very rare to see…most who think GZ was justified in his actions that night are taking personal swipes at a dead teenage boy and his grieving family rather than just supporting George. And it’s gotten really ugly.

    • SYG in Texas requires that you do not put yourself into a position where you may become endangered. If you do, that’s your @$$. You can’t claim SYG. The rules for security to happen to also have a CC license is that you cannot act in both capacities at the same time. If you are acting as security, your weapon must be visible and there has to be something to identify yourself as security (besides your gun). If you are a CC citizen, you are simply not allowed to go into situations looking or expecting trouble. It’s similar to that woman in Fl. who left the room to get her gun and fired a warning shot. Here in Texas a man was bothered by his neighbor’s loud b’day party. He called the police and then went armed with his gun, his cell phone and a video camera to tape himself demanding they quiet down the party. He was said to the 911 operator that he was in fear for his life b/c the partiers were talking badly to him and the homeowner had said he was going into his house and when he came back they would be equal. The man waited for him to come back and repeated his fear and shot the man dead. He was found guilty because he created the situation and not standing his ground. He could have went back home at any time and left it to the police.

  4. oh and another great blog entry NLME, once again you should be commended for the amount of thought and work you have put in to getting to the truth.

  5. I have been reading your site for a while, and am very impressed with the research that you and others have done.

    Here are two pro-Zimmerman arguments that really bother me:

    1) The only reasons that (pick one: the prosecutors, the judge, the media, etc.) are taking whatever anti-Zimmerman stances they are taking is because they’re afraid that black people will otherwise riot.

    This belief is so racist, I almost don’t want to address it, but I will. This argument assumes: a) the judge and prosecutors lack any professionalism and are only swayed by public opinion; b) the media is swayed by fear, rather than ratings; c) there is no actual evidence against Zimmerman (decidedly not true); and d) black people act in lock-step and always riot when they don’t get their way. The last assumption is purely racist and harkens back to the LA riots after the Rodney King trial (now almost 20 years ago), even though there have been numerous instances of injustices against black people since then that didn’t lead to riots.

    2) Trayvon Martin supporters think that it’s OK for someone to launch an unprovoked attack on a good citizen and practically beat the person senseless, and that good citizen doesn’t have a right to defend himself.

    The point that Zimmerman defenders miss is that, no, TM supporters don’t think that’s OK. Rather, we don’t think that’s what happened. Instead, from the beginning, the only evidence for that story is GZ’s word, and for a variety of reasons, most of which you have ably documented on this site, his word is less than credible.

    • Very well said. I’ve had similar conversations about the riot bull with the racists I work with. The next time they bring up worries about riots if “blacks don’t get their way”, I think I’ll challenge them in a different way.

      Remember the riots over Paterno’s firing late last year? Remember the riots over a hockey game last year?

      I think I’ll ask the next racist fool in my office if he/she plans to continue going to hockey games in light of past riots by hockey games patrons. I think I’ll ask those racist fools if they think rioting will break out if someone is fired from another State football team since that’s what happened in Pennsylvania when Paterno was fired.

      If they so no, I’ll just ask them to tell me why they think a riot will break out.

      I think the fears are baseless. I also think that people that cry scared of the threat of riots are bigots that think races other than their own comprised of non-human animals instead of other equally human humans.

      Besides, any other time people “take it to the streets” (destroy, loot, vandalize, protest non-peacefully, etc,) it’s called a revolution. But when minorities do it, it’s called a riot for some reason. When pissed of kids are mad about their perceived lynching of Paterno by the media, it’s called a riot by the media.

    • Thank you for the comment! Exactly — Defenders of Zimmerman are solely using his word rather than any of the other evidence. Per the perjury charge and countless other lies his family and he have told to date, that’s going to be a tough word to rely on.

    • I am in complete agreement with this comment. You said it all right on. I hate to read to this comments. For special flavor and antagonism, they also follow this illogic with something nasty like Black people will “chimp out” and have to be shot in the street. That Black people are going to riot when George is found innocent. They add nasty statements about Trayvon’s parents being bad parents. They state he was suspended for suspected marijuana use which they change to drug use and theft at school and having physical fights with school and other authorities. That there is a teacher or someone at the school who claims Trayvon was a major problem child and on and on. I ask them whether this is true or not, what does it have to do with GZ leaving his vehicle armed with a gun (which you can hear being cocked during the non-EM call) and confronting a person (forget the color). I ask them would they wait to see if the person just wanted to tell them something nice or would they assume something bad as they assume something bad about Trayvon? Why? They revert back to the other things listed in this blog as their illogic and spice it with chimping out.

  6. Debating GZ-supporters is often unproductive as they are prone to unsupportable prejudiced premises (GZ, John, etc. are all unquestionably truthful. Anyone who questions their version is impossibly flawed: Mary Cutcher is a fame-whore, the Teacher is batty, etc.). They also tend to draw weak or wholly unsupported conclusions from small pieces of evidence (TM’s suspension for MJ possession proves he was a drug dealer. Pictures of GZ’s head prove it was beaten repeatedly against concrete, etc.), consider these conclusions to be established fact, and call anyone who does not agree with conclusions an idiot, moron or worse.

    However, reading their posts is not utterly worthless as they do did up the occasional fact, and occasionally pose reasonable questions. What no one posting here or on the Conservative Treehouse seems to get is that no one posting here or on the Conservative Treehouse is going to be on the jury. The arguments presented at trial are going to have to be solid, or they will be shredded in cross, and whichever side makes the poor argument will lose credibility. There’s a lot wishful thinking about what leads to what on both sides here, which is fine for blogging perhaps, but doesn’t actually help towards building a case.

    One thing you can learn from GZ-fans is what they CAN’T support. I am suspicious of GZ’s version of events because I don’t believe TM was a ‘thug.’ And one of the main reasons I believe TM was not a thug is because the wingers have been trying to ‘prove’ he’s a thug with great vigor, and they have come up with bupkis (either relatively minor non-violent misbehavior, or material supposedly from social media pages that is utterly unsubstantiated. and likely forged by white supremacist hackers).

    However, while I am not a “Zimmerman supporter,” it’s possible to suspect that GZ is guilty of manslaughter at least, and that the accounts of events given by his surrogates are full of falsehoods… and still grant SOME of the pro-GZ points on the basis of facts. None of them exonerate him, but some do point to weak arguments against him.

    A. “Zimmerman’s injuries are proof that he had every right to protect himself under Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense).”
    GZ supporters have vastly exaggerated the degree of his injuries, and they ‘prove’ nothing definitively. However, the language of the SYG law is extraordinarily broad, and open to interpretation. The question of what is a “reasonable” belief that deadly force ” is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm,” and what is an unreasonable belief will be decided by a judge and jury. This is why the accounts of the end of the fight, right before the gunshot are so important. If GZ was on top of TM and there was no actual fighting going on — as some witnesses have reported — than the extent of GZ’s injuries are all but moot.

    B. NMLE: “Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense) is not applicable in this case seeing that Zimmerman unlawfully stalked, harassed, and preyed upon Trayvon Martin before the scuffle began. Meaning, you can’t unlawfully bring on a confrontation and then be protected by Stand Your Ground (or Self Defense).”
    There is no hard evidence that GZ brought on the confrontation. He was following TM during the first part of his police call, but then lost track of him. At the end of his call, there is no evidence that he knows where TM is, much less that he is following him. He may still be looking for him, but we don’t know that. DeeDee’s interviews, of course, indicate Zimmerman started the confrontation. But a reasonable person might question the accuracy of her account, including the fact that she only heard things.

    C. “Since Trayvon was acting suspicious, Zimmerman had every right to see what the unarmed teenager walking home with some snacks was up to.”

    They don’t need the qualifying clause. GZ had every legal right to OBSERVE TM, period. That’s not saying he had a right to harass him, engage in a fight, and shoot him. Looking at someone in a public place is not a crime. As for Martin acting suspiciously: we’ve pretty well established that he entered The Retreat via the NW shortcut, which is the path used by the thieves that have burgled The Retreat. A person having a cell-phone conversation via a headset often seems to behaving oddly, if you don’t know that’s what they’re doing. That said, while GZ may have had some reason to find TM suspicious, it’s pretty thin. He obviously uses a cell-phone headset himself, and as a Watch man, he should know the shortcut is routinely used by residents of the complex, not just thieves.

    D. “The 911 operator never told Zimmerman to stop chasing, stalking, harassing, preying upon, etc. Trayvon Martin.”
    That’s true. “We don’t need you to do that,” is, gramatically, a proposition of fact. It carries no instruction. An properly grammatical utterance telling GZ to stop would have to be in imperative form: “Don’t do that.” We can conclude that the Operator was giving GZ a suggestion, by inference. But that’s not a direct order. I believe police operators are not law officers, and do not have the authority to order people to do anything. Regardless, the 911 operator speaking to GZ seems to have done a very poor job of taking control of the situation.

    E. “The 911 operator never mentioned that Zimmerman should return to his vehicle.”
    That’s also true. “Should” refers to a proposition of policy, and such a utterance has to include that word, or similar, or take the imperative form: “You should go back to your vehicle to wait for the officer.” or “Go back to your vehicle to wait for the officer.” That didn’t happen. GZ told the operator he didn’t want to give his home address, and the operator asked him, “do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?” That’s just a question, there’s no ‘should’ implied at all. GZ initially says “Yeah”, but within seconds changes his mind and asks the operator to have the arriving officer call him, a plan to which the operator fully consents.

    F. “Zimmerman had a concealed firearms license and had every right to be armed.”
    He had every LEGAL right to be armed, under the batshit crazy gun laws of the State of Florida and the United States in general, which allow people with police records like GZ and Frank Taaffe to walk around strapped at any time and place they feel like doing so.
    NMLE: “Trayvon Martin would be alive if Neighborhood Watch rules [were] followed [by GZ].”
    True. But NW is a voluntary program with no legal authority. For GZ to carry would violate NW rules, and maybe should get him kicked out of NW, but those rules have no bearing on the criminal case. (Of course, NLME’s point about the contradictory apologetics for GZ being either hypocritical or absurdly dense is very well taken. It just has no bearing on the legal questions…)

    The most important thing I can say is that Zimmerman’s police call does NOT prove the things many anti-GZ folks seem to think it does. At the end of that call, he doesn’t know where TM is, and we don’t know where he’s going or what’s on his mind. He’s just a guy walking through his own neighborhood, which he has every legal right to do, wearing a gun, which he has every legal right to do (however insane, the law is what it is). The whole case comes down to what happened AFTER that call: how GZ and TM both came to be in the rear sidewalk area near the T, how their confrontation began, and how it ended.

    I do think a close analysis of GZs police call may reveal that key elements of the accounts given by his surrogates are false. It may help establish that GZ gave false statements to the investigators. But only fools like Nancy Grace conclude that liars MUST also be murderers. It’s probably not irrelevant in a self defense case, but I think The State will need to do more than dis-prove GZ to prove murder 2.

    • “There is no hard evidence that GZ brought on the confrontation. He was following TM during the first part of his police call, but then lost track of him.”

      Have to disagree with you here. There is HARD evidence that George Zimmerman had the gun drawn 15 seconds into the 9-1-1- call plus whatever time it took this witness to observe what she saw, get to a phone and call 9-1-1 to report it. I now believe that’s why this witness’s time to get to phone was reenacted and timed.

      This witness said the REASON she called 9-1-1 because she “assumed the guy with the gun was going to run” and she was home by herself and she also said she hears the screams for help on her original 9-1-1 call BEFORE the shot is fired. She also observed the guy in the white tee-shirt _on top_, and _no blows being thrown_ by white tee-shirt guy (Zimmerman), or as she described it, no _”wailing on anyone”_ before she hears the shot (which is captured on her 9-1-1- call).

      So.. we have an eye-witness, an ear witness, and two 9-1-1 calls that capture the events. I think that qualifies as hard evidence. This is in addition to all the other eye-witnesses and ear-witness that called 9-1-1 and heard what transpired.

      • First, citations please. Which documents or audio files do you refer to? And please provide p. numbers or elapsed times.

        Second. AFAIK none of the witnesses who called 911 saw the start of the fight, so I do not see how your remarks rebut my point in any way.

        The State does not need to prove GZ started the confrontation to achieve a conviction. Even if TM approached GZ, confronted him verbally, pushed him to the ground and popped him in the nose, GZ is still guilty of murder 2 if he gained control of the situation, drew his weapon and fired it at a time where TM was no longer fighting but merely pleading for help or mercy.

      • Witness 3 is the one think you’re asking about. She SAW what she saw prior to calling 9-1-1 and did not look out the window again after that. She said she called 9-1-1 is because she assumed the guy with the gun was going to run. Witness 3 also she said the guy on top had on the white tee and at that time no blows were being thrown.

        The guy on top had to be George Zimmerman because Trayvon Martin’s dark colored hoodie and the shirt underneath it had the bullet hole through them both. This means Trayvon Martin’s under shirt was not visible. George Zimmerman’s jacket was most likely unzipped and his tee-shirt (which was light in color) exposed. The tee-shirt had Zimmerman’s own blood on it and is listed as DMS-16 in the document dump.

        DeeDee is the ear witness I was referring to above.

        Witness 3 and Witness 11 captured the gunshot in their 9-1-1 calls.

      • Witness 4 & 7 information has yet to be released. Maybe they saw the whole thing? State released all the other witness statements, 911 calls, Fire dept etc. They held back 4 and 7. hmmmmm

        • The 911 calls from Witness 4 & 7 are on AxiomAmnesia now. Witness 4 doesn’t say much though and Witness 7 is most concerned about an elderly man who lives in that direction.

          • Oops, my bad – those are caller nos. 4 and 7, not witness nos. 4 and 7. Now, I’m curious. There is rumor, possibly, that one of the witnesses (maybe 4 or 7?) has a video of the altercation and not just that crumbly clubhouse video of moving lights and shadows. I hope that’s true and solve this thing one way or the other. I had also heard there is something on Trayvon’s phone. I think this is one of those pieces of evidence that is not going to be even mistakenly released to the public. I’d like to think that’s the real reason George isn’t so anxious to get to trial or a SYG hearing.

      • @Loree –

        Awesome find! Hadn’t realized that. Wonder what those witnesses had to say..

        • I have another source that claims to have a source inside the police department that may be from witnesses 4 or 7 I mentioned earlier. This source claims it seals George’s guilt. I am only hopeful this is true. I believe GZ’s resistance to wanting to get on with the SYG hearing is indicative of his knowledge (despite his forgetfulness when it matters) that he is guilty. He’s been running scared from Day 1. I am sad to hear that despite what Det. Serino said to GZ in the audio interviews that he seemed to actually help GZ rather than remain objective. I believe that GZ was at least an accessory to the murder. GZ didn’t have on a white T-shirt according to the police station video. The forensics indicate that the gunpowder was on the upper rear of his red jacket. He didn’t have a rifle. Why was the gunpowder back there?? Trayvon’s prints are not on GZ’s gun. How could he have reached it straddled an “obese” GZ? I don’t believe this scenario. If John saw some MMA style blows going down, why aren’t there more marks on Trayvon’s hands? If TM was attempting to smother or just stifle GZ’s yells, again, why no blood on TM’s hands from GZ’s bloody nose?? GZ was allowed to go to the restroom before any testing. WHY????

    • A. I think what you’re saying is the minor injuries Zimmerman sustained aren’t applicable to his Stand Your Ground defense. I agree. I also think Zimmerman realized a judge/jury wouldn’t buy his “life threatening injuries” defense. Hence, after the doctor’s visit and during his reenactment, Zimmerman mentions a fear of his gun being pulled by Trayvon and used. If that was the case, I’d expect to see Trayvon’s (absent) DNA on the gun.

      B. The moment he left the truck is the moment he brought the confrontation on himself.

      C. Zimmerman didn’t have every right to stalk, harass, and prey upon his unarmed neighbor (especially after being told to stop).

      D. It’s as clear as day: “Ok, we don’t need you to do that (stalk, harass, and prey upon the teenager).”

      E. I disagree. But, now we’re starting to get into nitpicky subjective grammar like Clinton’s “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”

      F. Page 25 of the NW Manual…

      “Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.”

      http://www.usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

      Lastly…

      The most important thing I can say is that Zimmerman’s police call does NOT prove the things many anti-GZ folks seem to think it does. At the end of that call, he doesn’t know where TM is, and we don’t know where he’s going or what’s on his mind. He’s just a guy walking through his own neighborhood, which he has every legal right to do, wearing a gun, which he has every legal right to do (however insane, the law is what it is). The whole case comes down to what happened AFTER that call: how GZ and TM both came to be in the rear sidewalk area near the T, how their confrontation began, and how it ended.

      As the Neighborhood Watch manual states…

      “Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons…”

      As I recall — but, don’t have the time to look it up now — USAonWatch states that an offender of Neighborhood Watch guidelines isn’t protected by the law. If somebody is bored/has the time and can cite this passage, I would be greatly appreciative.

  7. I appreciate the effort everyone has taken to investigate and post on this site. It’s quite informative. However, I KNOW 100% in my heart that GZ, John and FT are guilty of murder and they will be their own undoing. FT just reported that he spent time with the FBI but gave up nothing — exactly what is their to give up? John is already wavering and if he is smart, looking for his own defense attorney. I don’t think the prosecutor will have too difficult a time at trial . . . after all, the lies unraveling as we speak. . .

    • Debbie — Thank you for the comment. I’ve stopped just short of implicating Taaffe and “John” but they’ll definitely have some explaining to do in front of a jury and under oath.

    • Note that John grunts a lot, clearing his throat, while being interviewed. He is extremely nervous during his interviews. Jeremy’s woman seems defensive during her interview. I think John saved the photos he (?) took of GZ’s head afterwards.

      • @Lisa Simon:

        You seem to be confusing JohnW6 and JonW13. JonW13 took the pictures. He did not see any part of the confrontation and did not call 911.

        Conspiracy theories are not supported by the physical evidence. GZ acted alone in pursuing detaining and shooting Trayvon Martin. JohnW6 was certainly not involved. He merely made false statements to the police because he thought he was telling them what they wanted to hear. I think Frank Taaffe is a sad alcoholic who was not close to George Zimmerman — probably because GZ felt superior to him — and inserted himself into the case so he could get validation for his existence by going on the Nancy Grace show and getting his mic cut off.

        • Yes. I did confuse Jeremy and John, Sorry about that; but, you knew who I was talking about. :)

    • Whonoze, that link is inaudible to me. Can you provide more info about what she says? Thanks.

      • If it won’t play in your browser just right-click or ctl-click the link and choose “Save link as…” to DL the file to your computer. It’s a .WAV file so it should play fine in Windows, but you might need Perian installed to hear in in Quicktime Player on a Mac (or not…)

  8. I am new here but I am wondering why almost everyone thinks there will actually be a trial.

    • I think there will be a trial because the judge and the jury have two different thresholds to determine guilt or innocence. The judge has to determine guilt from preponderence of evidence. There is that. GZ leaving his vehicle and not remaining at his vehicle even after the suggestion of the non-EM operator. That makes him the aggressor. That takes it to trial. What the jury determines has to determine is if the state proved the defendant’s guilt beyond every reasonable doubt. I think, if the jury is dealing with this as a separate case from their own experience(s) or any other biases, what they will see is that this case is different from the one the judge lost. Trayvon did not have a glass table top to throw at GZ. He had only his fists. He was not a professional boxer or fighter. He did not use his tea can or skittles. If George was really worried about being hurt, he would not have “squirmed” to get off of the concrete and onto the grass. He would have fought back. He did not fight back because he was not the victim at any point. He was the aggressor but we’ll have to wait and see how the jury views it. Prayerfully, people will see TM the same as they saw the homeless guy against the 2 brothers and rule against GZ.

      from that point is something else.

  9. If there Is a trial I wouldn’t bet on a conviction. The states case stinks to high heaven….and they know it.

    • I don’t know if it stinks to high heaven but after reading what happened with the one SYG hearing GZ’s newest judge handled, I think you may be right about there not being a conviction. The judge did not believe the defendant and the jury within a month acquitted the defendant. Although each case is different, if the judge makes their decision on the preponderence of evidence and the jury makes their decision on any doubt, I GUESS, if the jury ignores that GZ followed the child unlike the case I just mentioned where one of the purported assailants demonstrated that they were going to use a glass table top to throw on the defendant, he will be found not guilty. A punch in the nose, IF TM did it, is not deadly or even potentially deadly force. It is obviously, IMO, a defensive move. I believe that GZ had a gun drawn and I believe that he had his hand on TM’s sweattop to keep him from running away. Go to AxiomAmnesia and listen to his tapes and those of the witnesses.

      We’ll have to wait and see. I hope that if he gets off, he will not be so bold as to do something so mindless and evil again. I do pray that he never finds peace in his life.

      • You said, “I do pray that he never finds peace in his life.” Did you really mean to say something so hateful?

        Wow, we must have totally different Gods.

        Did you ever consider praying FOR him and his family?

        • I beg your pardon if I offended you but yes, I did intend to state something so hateful. He may have deserved a new judge but he does not deserve peace on Earth, in my opinion (which does not mean much) as long as he turns his face from the God he invoked on national television and the truth.

          • With respect, Ma’m… When has he turned his face from God? I have a friend who is a close friend of George and Shellie. I will believe her over anything I read in mainstream media.

            The Many Manipulations, Myths and Lies of the Zimmerman/Martin Case (This is a work in progress)

            http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/the-many-manipulations-myths-and-lies-of-the-zimmermanmartin-case/

            Any rush to judgment here?

            I have several friends here in Florida who are lawyers including my own very liberal son in law. This is the law from one of their sites:

            “The 2012 Florida Statutes – CHAPTER 776 – JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
            http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

            “Not illegal to exit his vehicle. . not illegal to follow Martin.. not even illegal to confront Martin or initiate the altercation.”

            None of them believe George should have ever even been arrested.

            The truth has no agenda but I think a lot of other folks do. You can guess who but I also believe in innocent until proven guilty.

            I think the Osterman’s new book is a terrible idea but it does have some interesting information.

            • If you have a close friend of GZ’s who you will believe over anything in the media; if you have a list of lawyers who do not believe he is guilty, then you don’t need to be concerned about my or anyone else’s opinion that does not agree with your fact-finding. I believe that if he believed he was doing the right thing from the beginning, he had no resistance from the police on up to the governor or whoever, if the people who matter, general public and the law are on his side, why is he afraid to go forward with the hearing instead of taking it to the media and wishing to remain in hiding? An innocent or at least a person of some integrity would refuse to hide. A person who claims to have faith in God would not hide. again, my opinon. I live in Texas. I won’t be on the jury, as most of the commenting people, won’t be on the jury if it makes it to trial.

            • George would like nothing more than to have an Immunity hearing and get this over. O’Mara has him in a box. The terms of the bonding agreement require that O’Mara must remain on the case. That’s bad because O’Mara is part of the good old boy system in Seminole county and George needs an out of county attorney which is not possible. George is screwed. O’Mara is only acting in HIS own interest, not George’s. I will be happy to answer any questions as best I can.

            • When the prosecution stated that they would love nothing more than to get to the trial, the defense’s eyes locked like deer in headlights and you could see them holding their breath and praying that Judge Lester would not allow it. Also, the fact that GZ continued to defy and disrespect the court in that last bond hearing. He was told through his lawyer that he was to speak for himself not through his lawyer. He sat there with his mouth pressed tight together and his head tilted up like a prissy old woman who had been offended by a youngster. I do not believe he wants to get it down. He wants to run…very far. If O’Mara is holding him back from it, I’d say that’s because O’Mara knows what each piece of evidence means to a judge or a jury since they have separate thresholds to determine guilt or lack of it. These are all my opinions; something everyone has. I won’t be on the jury but these are things I would consider and have to wonder if the jury would also.

            • George did not lie because he did not speak. If there is a bad guy, then it’s O’Mara and, of course Lester and the State who all knew about the money, just like you and I. Insofar as Shellie, she offered the brother in law but no one even asked him.

              Jeralyn is a left wing defense attorney from Denver. Here is what she says at her website, talkleft, about why Shellie has not broken Florida law:
              http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/5/223228/5631

              http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/12/193621/590
              Shellie really needs an out of town or out of state attorney, not in the Seminole County good old boy system, who is willing to publicly discuss a strategy to call Lester, Bernie de la Rionda and O’Mara to the stand to find out who knew about that fund and when they knew about it. EVERYONE of them knew about it. Maybe they would all be running for cover but who is willing to do that?

              It is all part of the fix. George is screwed unless someone steps in from out of state but that would not be easy because of the way O’Mara set up the terms of the bonding agreement.

              Nice civil discussion we have. Unusual for this site. Thanks for being respectful .

            • “Wow… just wow. With respect, do you really believe what you are saying? I am sorry but I have read enough about this case to believe an entirely different scenario but neither of us were there. At the end of day, the law supports his claim of self defense.

              The state has an agenda. Just take a look at their charging document where they specifically mention the iced tea while we know NOW it was watermelon juice. If they can’t get that right, then the entire affidavit is poisoned. I mean how much investigating did they really do?”

              I don’t understand your “Wow’s” because you still don’t indicate what you are basing your argument on. I appreciate that you seem to find some value in my responses. My bottom line remains that if GZ and MOM believe that the state’s case is so weak, then they should move forward with the case. I think it indicates a total lack of good sense to allow the State to continue to dig. The digging has slowed down considerably. I would have went forward while I had a majority of supporters such as yourself.

              If it is a matter of money for MOM, according to media reports, there isn’t any left for MOM because GZ has spent it on his security (without consideration for his parents and grandmother), expensive phones and phone plans, etc., not his legal fund. If MOM is required to stay on the case, now that he has to keep his word about doing it for free, I’d think that he’d want to get it done so he can get back to paying cases. The well is dry. His supporters don’t even offer their services as security or $20. GZ’s supporters blinked in disbelief and closed their wallets (even the NRA – the NRA is not about vigilantism) when they watched and listened to his testimony on Hannity. My jaw dropped when I heard some of what he said on Hannity. I said to my eldest son, “He is insane. His best defense may be that he is crazy or mentally incompetent.” BTW, my son does not think he is crazy. He thinks that he pretended to be crazy on Hannity to help his case.

              I tend to go on about my observations and opinions. Please tell me what you believe the State’s agenda is. Why would the State pick GZ to be their whipping boy or scapegoat? The State of Florida is not known for giving a %$# about their Black citizens. The population isn’t large or wealthy enough to care about, so why would the State feel any need to appease that population in your opinion? If there is any agenda, what is it?

            • You said: My bottom line remains that if GZ and MOM believe that the state’s case is so weak, then they should move forward with the case.

              It will take months for discovery and to depose over 50 witnesses.

              The defense fund has dried up. George and his family are in serious financial trouble even with several sites. O’Mara screwed up and cost them over $100,000 for the last bond. People stopped donations due to O’Mara’s costly blunders and putting Shellie and George at great risk. Remember that he had that passport for over 30 days and knew all about the defense fund but so did everyone else. He will have to file a motion for indigent status for George in order to get paid so he needs that first. No way will he continue this case pro bono. It will cost at least a million to defend and probably more.

              No way to explain all of this in a post but Scott appointed Corey. She bypassed the grand jury 2 days before they were scheduled to hear the case.. huge mistake and an insult to our citizens here. She had already decided to charge him and bowed to the black community.. Sharpton, Jackson, Holder and, of course, Crump and Parks.

              She and Bondi are buddies. Bondi and Crump are buddies. Remember the video taped phone call she made to Martin’s parents while in Crump’s car? She had no clue.

              Rememer Corey getting on her knees and praying with Martin’s parents? And who did she say she was representing in her press conference? Little slip of the tongue? Got it.

              Crump hired Ryan Julison almost immediately who began to create the false narrative and the media went for it, working closely with Matt Gutman and others to get out their story.. a huge bunch of lies if you read my first post. Then he got caught and ABC took him off the lead in the case. Other outlets fired folks for doctoring tapes.

              Bondi has no problem giving Crump millions of tax payer dollars as she has done in the past. It is not her money, This case has always been about money.. nothing more. Crump does not want a conviction. He only wants a trial because that opens the door to civil suits even if George is found to be not guilty. Remember all of the cries for an arrest when none was justified? That was step one. Not guilty means the civil suits can proceed.

              If George is found to be immune at a self defense hearing, then Crump is out of luck. Geroge will also be immune from civil suits. It’s why he is already trying to make deals to cover his “expenses” thus far.

              However, trouble is on the horizon. I have inside information that the DeeDee conversation may not have even occurred. I have no proof of that but if it’s true, Crump is in deep trouble. `DeeDee will never testify and Crump had hoped George would accept a plea deal so he never had any plans for her to be on a witness stand. Clearly, George will not now plea to anything and Bernie and Corey must also be nervous.

              We still do not know the truth about the cell phone found at the scene. That is a huge problem. O’Mara is obviously keeping all of this close to the vest so maybe he will be forced to defend George instead of covering his butt. He threw both George and Shellie under the bus. If she gets an out of state lawyer, O”Mara is in trouble but Lester might be, too. The problem is the Seminole County “good old boy” system where they all work together and it’s why George also needs an out of state or out of county attorney, but even so, O’Mara must remain on the case. He made sure of that in the bonding agreement. He is in this for the money.. Do not be deceived.

            • I am enjoying this discussion with you.

              You do realize that the initial question for this stream is what do people read or hear from GZ supporters, right?

              Supposedly, there are not that many witnesses to despose. If there are, why would GZ want to move as far from them as possible? He originally was away. Once he got back in the county, the problem was that he was not able to help with his defense because he was in the next county and could not help his lawyer in his defense. How is he better able to defend himself out of state than in the next county?

              If there is no State’s case, why would it take months to depose witnesses that know GZ is innocent?

              O’Mara had the almost-expired passport. GZ and SZ indicated in their jailhouse phone calls that she kept the valid one in the safe deposit box and GZ told her to keep it there.

              Perhaps GZ should get a court appointed attorney. GZ may have thought he was a major defendant which might explain why he chose one of the most expensive lawyers in the area. He wanted a more expensive one than the one he has. If I were the defendant and believed I had a slam dunk case, I would not have thought I needed such an expensive lawyer.

              I recall that Angela Corey decided to bypass a grand jury. Again, why care about the Black community? Who are they? If he is guilty, who cares what a bunch of unruly Black people think? Let them nut up and get arrested.

              They had enough to make a million dollar bond. They should have used it to push forward and force the State’s hand. George should have used the money for his defense instead of having expensive phones and plans to keep tabs on Shellie. Why was he so worried about Shelley’s activities while he was in detention? According to his phone calls, he never asked her if she was ok. He wanted to know what she was doing with who, when and why. He wanted to know what she was doing about getting the laptop back and the Paypal money. He talked to his sister about his wife as if she were a mental deficient and thanked his sister for her patience with his stupid wife. He never asked his wife how she was doing (she asked him how he was doing). He never asked how were his parents and grandmere doing. He only wanted to know what was being said about him in the media and Shellie’s assurance that he was loved and supported by the general public.

              “She had already decided to charge him and bowed to the black community.. Sharpton, Jackson, Holder and, of course, Crump and Parks. She and Bondi are buddies. Bondi and Crump are buddies”

              This goes to what this strand is supposed to be about: what do you read from GZ supporters? You believe that this is about appeasing the Black community and I ask “who cares?” I am Black but I don’t live in Florida. I do not perceive Florida (or Texas the state I live in) to be states that care what the Black population think because they are not an affluent group and are minorities. So why jeopardize her position or future aspirations for a few non-influential people?

              “Remember the video taped phone call she made to Martin’s parents while in Crump’s car? She had no clue. Rememer Corey getting on her knees and praying with Martin’s parents? And who did she say she was representing in her press conference? Little slip of the tongue? Got it. Crump hired Ryan Julison almost immediately who began to create the false narrative and the media went for it, working closely with Matt Gutman and others to get out their story.. a huge bunch of lies if you read my first post. Then he got caught and ABC took him off the lead in the case. Other outlets fired folks for doctoring tapes. Bondi has no problem giving Crump millions of tax payer dollars as she has done in the past. It is not her money, This case has always been about money.. nothing more. Crump does not want a conviction. He only wants a trial because that opens the door to civil suits even if George is found to be not guilty. ”

              I do not know about any of this narrative. My understanding is that if the jury determines that if he is found not guilty ( not the same as found innocent), the family is not able to file for civil recompense.

            • I am a 66 year old retired newspaper consultant but also a disabled veteran. I grew up in the deep South on a sharecropper farm (cotton and tobacco.) I only had black friends except for cousins and learned to “think” black. We were dirt poor so we ate “black/soul food” if that makes sense. I still cook that way.

              Later in life I marched against George Wallace in Massachusetts, studied Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge Cleaver and Malcolm X. I also wrote a thesis about traveling as the head of a black family from NY to Florida in the fifties. Get the picture?

              This case was falsely and maliciously made out to be a racist one from the start BEFORE the media discovered that George was Hispanic and had a black ancestry. By then, it was too late to turn back because Crump, Sharpton and Jackson seized on it to make money and push their despicable “whitey kills black kid” agenda. Then Holder intervened looking for evidence of a hate crime and, of course, they found nothing but they still suppressed George’s support of blacks, most notably the Anthony Ware case.

              Believe me when I say that riots by blacks were imminent in Sanford until George was arrested and that is why Scott, Corey and Bondi intervened, circumventing our process and making this a political issue.

              Sanford has a not so pleasant black history and the Ware case was typical.

              I cannot go into details about George’s whereabouts and where he should or should not be but suffice it to say that George and Shellie have a healthy loving relationship, regardless of how you interpreted the jail house tapes but he needs the freedom to move around due to security reasons as well as helping with his defense. Too complex for a post.. He lives in fear every day.

              George did not seek out O’Mara but the truth is he should have never spoken with law enforcement without an attorney and we all know there would have never been any charges if he had kept his mouth shut. He originally reached out to Mark NeJame. He was not looking for an expensive lawyer because he did not the value of the fund at that time.It has just got started. NeJame and O’Mara are also drinking buddies along with Lester who drinks free at their night clubs.

              You are correct in that there a lot of legal things that should have been done but that is my point about O’Mara. He did not do any of them. He and Lester were fraternity brothers to make things even more complex. IMO, Lester did NOT want this case but what judge does? My guess is that Lester intentionally wrote those strongly worded orders knowing what would happen.

              Corey is safe in her job. She was reelected unopposed earlier this year and it’s why she is on the case, She has nothing to gain or lose. However, in spite of being a Republican in a state that loves gun, she is actually anti gun and uses our 10 20 30 mandatory sentencing in every gun case she handles. It’s an outdated law.

              Bondi has a lot of lose and this case could cost her because so many people know her part in this persecution/prosecution of George.

              The law in Florida is that if you are charged with a crime and go to trial, you are still subject to civil suits even if you found to be not guilty. It also means that other suits can be filed, as in the Sanford PD. There is a huge difference than being found immune at a self defense hearing, I know it is illogical but that is our law.

              I used to go to Texas a lot and did business with a lot of newspapers there.

              Did I answer all of your questions?

            • You have a very interesting personal history. Thank you for sharing it.
              I think the reason the story took a racial bend was not because of George’s race but because the Sanford police department has a history. The most recent story being the homeless Black man beaten by one of the former chief of police’s son.

              As you know from your own personal story, there is a history of racism in America especially in the deep south and very little has been done to change that story or history. Shoot, the most recent activity to keep certain people from being able to vote continues the story of the South.

              I had a white boyfriend once. I still write with him occasionally. He did not have the same exposure that you have had and he was unable to totally see what I was pointing out to him. He had experiences with golfing with his bosses when they stated something to the effect of things needing to be put back in place and they were referring to the Black men on the golf course. He did not tell them that he is currently married to a Black woman. He told me how he was embarassed and speechless at the things they said to him thinking he was a “member.”

              As to George’s ancestry: You should know that there are people that don’t like members of their own race or whole groups of members of their own race. George having a Black person ople that don’t like Black people as there are Whites that don’t like Whites or whatever. George having a Black ancestor is not significant anymore than my having a white or Indian ancestor. I am considered Black. I live in Texas. Texas Hispanics are not unusually in love with Blacks, Whites or other Histpanics. Considering the relationships that George and his family have had racially, I would not think that they necessarily value their Black ancestry except as much as it might help them now.

              The relationship he supposedly had with the 2 Black youths does not mean much really. The way he, his mother and wife told it, they were not working with equals but mentally, financially and intellectually inferior beings. His mother warned him to stay away from those people. She stated that herself in the first hearing. She feared them from what she said. Why would she feel that way if she had a Black father/grandfather? And, as I stated before: George is not intellectually capable of tutoring or mentoring anyone. If he mentored anyone, it was more than likely court ordered. Probably from being such a pest to 911 calling everytime someone Black sneezed. He brought it upon himself the belief that he is racist. Of course, most (not you, it seems) of his supporters don’t help the situation with comments like “chimping out.” He didn’t help himself by allowing his lawyer to state that TM was dead because of his own actions. That is like saying a woman is raped because she smiled at you.

              I agree that Judge Lester did not want this case. I think that the Judge was lenient in the first bond hearing until he almost got taken down with it after those jailhouse calls which may have even implicated the judge’s complicity in the case. (You should tell George from here on out that he should be quiet. He comes off as boastful, foolish and mentally challenged.) I think the judge worded his second order harshly knowing he would be taken off the case; BUT, I think he did that because he knew from what he had heard in the court, on the tapes and perhaps from his friend MOM, that George was not standing his ground. He murdered that young man but Lester did not want to rule against his friend O’Mara.

              You live there so I can’t say that you are wrong about how imminent a race riot was. Here in Texas, the news showed people of many races present at the demonstrations.
              Although I think it is counterproductive to riot, I do believe that the people needed to make a statement. It was not right for anyone of any race to be able to kill someone, state it was self defense and be able to go on with his or her life without an investigation and a clear finding of facts to demonstrate that the person was justified in his/her actions. You don’t do that here in Texas. There is a hearing at least. See Joe Horn. And, please, try to use your own past experiences to understand the mindset. If a fat, black, Black man had shot a white freckle-faced white boy (you’ve seen the photo) and stated that the child had told him he was going to kill him so he felt he had to shoot him first, it would not have been believed. He would be lucky to have made it to a trial. A police officer here would have shot him on the spot before finding out if he was rendering medical aid or the killer. That’s another belief you will not be able to change my mind on.

              I am a Black female. White men will talk in front of me as if I am another man. I am not respected or considered a woman the same way they see their own women. White women speak to me in ways they would not speak to their sisters. My husband and sons are expected to be able to take more insults and abuse than would be applied to a non-Black person. They do not feel fear or threat from us and I do not believe that GZ felt any fear or threat from TM. He said he didn’t on numerous occasions. He committed a murder. I believe partially because he felt this Black male, out of all the people in the World, was supposed to submit and answer to him and the child said, “What??? F You” and it was on.

            • Lisa, we are not going to agree about this case and it’s best we leave it to the judicial system. I do not know where you get all of your information and I have never even heard of the term “chimping out.” What on earth does that mean? I have tried to stay away from racially charged sites that promote hatred but some of the comments here are much that way as they are at many other sites.

              Insofar as the homeless black man, read this:

              “Do you know the individual that stepped up when no one else in the black community would?” “Do you know who spent tireless hours putting flyers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black community? Do you know who waited for the church‐goers to get out of church so that he could hand them fliers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8th, 2011 at Sanford City Hall??”

              Zimmerman was one of “very few” in Sanford, Fla., who spoke out publicly to condemn the “beating of the black homeless man Sherman Ware on December 4, 2010 by the son of a Sanford police officer.”

              The NAACP is well aware of his activism in supporting blacks here.

              The 2 officers against whom he protested in his support for Ware were 2 of the officers who investigated him in this Martin case.

              The officers whom Zimmerman targeted for accountability in the Sherman Ware incident were all cleared by the Seminole County Sheriff’s investigation, despite Zimmerman’s repeated accusations that police gave kid-glove treatment to a white officer’s son who beat a defenseless, homeless black man.
              But 14 months later, at least two of the same officers investigated the shooting death of Trayvon Martin — and cleared Zimmerman — even though his voice was the loudest calling for their punishment in the Ware case.
              One of those officers was Timothy Smith. According to a police incident report from the scene of the Feb. 26 shooting, Officer Smith handcuffed Zimmerman and transported him to the police station. Another was Sergeant Anthony Raimondo, who was on scene with Smith and other local officers.

              Does it seem logical that they would want to give him a pass? It’s more of a thought than a question.

              In late 2010 and early 2011 George Zimmerman, the Hispanic Sanford, Fla., man who shot and killed 17-year-old black teen Trayvon Martin, publicly demanded discipline in a race-related beating case for at least two of the police officers who cleared him after the Feb. 26 altercation, according to records

              I challenge you to stand together and to have our voices heard, and to hold accountable all of those officers, and officials whom let this atrocious attack pass unpunished until the media revealed it, one of the fliers reads in part. This animal could have attacked anyone of us, our children or loved ones in his alcohol fueled rage.

              http://www.scribd.com/doc/87840105/Zimmerman-Letter-to-Sanford-Churches

              State Attorney Norm Wolfinger released a statement on Monday saying he is “outraged by the outright lies” contained in a letter written by the attorney of Trayvon Martin’s parents, who are seeking a federal review in the case.
              http://ironicsurrealism.com/2012/04/03/florida-state-attorney-is-outraged-letter-trayvon-family-attorney-sent-to-doj-contains-outright-lies/

              Sorry for the length.

              I hate the stereotyping of races. I realize that people of all races have deep rooted hatred of one another and it reflects unfavorably on others who are not that way. Not a thing that you and I can do about that but most of my friends do not fit into that category but yes, there are exceptions. For some odd reason, good looking busty black women found me interesting. My friends would tease me about it but being in the media somehow made it OK, I think they were jealous. LOL .However, I always had closer relationships with ALL women more than men. Maybe that goes back to my roots when we had mutual respect for each other, even in the rural south. My uncle was the overseer for a lot of sharecroppers but he was a sharecropper, too. Until he died, I continued to go back and visit with a few of those black sharecroppers.

              I have no solution to the racial division in our country but I get sick of hearing about it and I am tired of all races blaming their poor upbringing on their current plight in life. If I could rise above that so can anyone else.

              Fried pork chops with gravy, Charleston red rice, speckled butter beans, okra and pan fried cornbread for dinner.

            • We’ve been chatting for a few days now. I’m certain that if you look back over my comments that I acknowedged that GZ was one of the main people who came forward on behalf of the homeless Black man beaten by a white police officer’s son and the coverup that was attempted. It was one of my points on why GZ thought he was talking to kindred souls when he simply told them he shot the child. You need to listen carefully to his statements he made to the Sanford police. They can be found on AxiomAmnesia: They Always Get Away.

              I’m not going to press you further with responding to your response point for point again.

              Here is another piece of my logic, flawed or not: The Black population is not significant enough in Florida for the entire state or even a small portion to be concerned. If they riot, it will be captured on television and the police or armed forces would be viewed as justified for stepping in and suppressing that situation. Why be concerned about people who can’t even afford to purchase a valid State-issued I.D.? Therefore, why care if they get upset about one Black child being killed and no clear reason for the logic behind why that was allowed to happen? The boy was unarmed and was not doing anything to justify GZ following him with a gun. He does not wear that gun all of the time. He snatched it out of his vehicle as he left it to pursue him. If he stated that he was heading towards the back entrance, then it would be logical to assume he was leaving. Why continue to look for him with a flashlight and gun? Why knock on your neighbors’ doors to come assist you, in what? He did not do it alone.

              I can’t guess why Officer Timothy and the other would want to assist GZ get out of this. I had a similar situation with officers and my sons here in Texas where they simply harassed my sons. I filed papers against them and now those officers are our best friends from their supervisors on down. We can’t ask for enough assistance even when we don’t have all of the proof of this or that.

              I summarize some of my convictions from statements such as what you wrote yourself here on this blog. NeJame did not want to be on the case, O’Mara is supposedly forced by the bond order to remain on the case; the first 2 judges were relieved to be off the case. Please file removal motions and get me off this case. If Judge Lester and MOM are fraternity brothers and pals, this would have been a perfect opportunity for his brother to help him win the case of the century and get an “innocent” man off for murder. You could see the terror on MOM’s face when GZ was interviewing with Hannity. George has self-control issues and won’t be controlled by anyone else. He’s mentally challenged and I think that would be his best defense.

              If he were innocent or at least not guilty of murder, he’d have any and every attorney in the world clamoring to assist him not for the money but for the notoriety and future gains (such as OJ Simpson’s and Rodney King’s attorneys). They are not because they have discussed it with each other and George told attorneys, the prosecutor’s office (before they filed the papers) and Hannity (before the original papers were filed) that he made a mistake and killed the child but that it was not out of malice or prejudice. Just the same, it was unjustifiable homicide. No one wants to touch it but the prosecutors office because it is so juicy easy once they get him into court and he has to get at least one witness to state that they saw it all or whatever and know he killed the boy because he was afraid of being made an invalid or dead. I think he felt punked IF TM actually punched him in the nose and made him fall back on that tree at the top of the T and scratched his fool head. I do not believe that his head was slammed for a minute and he did not go unconscious. He states that he was able to squirm off of the concrete and onto the grass but he couldn’t buck the boy off of him? Please my newfound Internet buddy. That is unbelievable. If he was strong enough to take that for 10 seconds and still have a conversation with the neighbor who peaked out to see if he needed assistance (and that neighbor didn’t help his good old buddy George????) and are we to believe that TM paused his action or ignored this witness to allow GZ to have this conversation?
              It’s a very difficult task for anyone to prove to me, in any case, that based upon what GZ stated in many of his statements that he was a defenseless woman or child and from the very beginning had no option but to follow someone who was minding their own business, track him, tell the non-EM to have the police call rather than stay on the phone until he was safely back at his vehicle which he chose to not do when he said the child ran to the rear entrance and therefore is more than likely gone. I can go on and on. I’m trying to stop blowing up this person’s blog but I sincerely believe that you have an interest beyond “guilty until proven innocent.”

              The man told you that he is guilty of killing him what he has yet to confess in direct words is that it was not self-defense and that is why he is the Cain in this tale.
              I wish you and your family a Blessed life (even if you are a friend or relative of GZ).

            • Not a relative.

              Shrimp and grits with tomato gravy for dinner tomorrow. Too much work for biscuits for one guy but boy do I love biscuits with slices of sweet onions and home grown tomatoes. Simple comfort food is the best. Don’t you agree?

              I have published 37 cookbooks so you can guess I no longer look like George Jefferson but I am still often accused of acting just like him.
              He was just too damn funny and his show was probably the last sitcom I watched. Nothing racist in his shows at all and was a good example of how we can all live together.

            • Thank you for being respectful also. I have to disagree about it being unusual. Until provoked with “chimping out” type comments (that really amuses and inflames me), most people who are considered to be TM supporters do not say nasty things.

            • I am not a Martin or Zimmerman supporter. The truth has no agenda and I believe in innocent until proven guilty. As of now, George is 100 percent innocent.

              Most of my information comes from Florida lawyers and I trust them a lot more than MSM who have vilified George from the start.

              Remember the Duke lacrosse scandal? Or the Richard Jewel mess? Maybe George will be compensated for all the media has done to him. Imagine living in fear when others want to kill you and would even pay to have it done. What did his parents do to deserve this? They have completely lost their retirement. And you never hear what has happened to his friends whose lives have completely changed. I “know” one of them and she is not in good shape but yet she still advocates for George. Bless her.

              Do you ever wonder what happened to those 2 black kids that George mentored for over a year.. the ones who loved him so much and have not even been able to see him once? Lots of people have had their lives disrupted.

              I noticed that Alicia Martin is finally going to speak out publicly. I have a sense that Crump is scrambling for cover. And what about Brandi Green? Will she speak up and tell the truth? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

            • “I am not a Martin or Zimmerman supporter.” You certainly read like one to me.

              “The truth has no agenda and I believe in innocent until proven guilty. As of now, George is 100 percent innocent. Most of my information comes from Florida lawyers and I trust them a lot more than MSM who have vilified George from the start.”

              MSM hasn’t mentioned GZ or this case since they interviewed his friend Joe Oliver.

              “Remember the Duke lacrosse scandal? Or the Richard Jewel mess? Maybe George will be compensated for all the media has done to him. Imagine living in fear when others want to kill you and would even pay to have it done”

              The Lacrosse case is not this – that was rape; this is murder. If he is compensated, good for him. Is that why he’s allowing it to linger on and on? O’Mara is not stopping this. Instead of getting rid of Judge Lester, he should have worked on getting rid of O’Mara BUT it would have played into what some people are saying, he is paranoid and trusts no one, not family, friends, the law, anyone (that is the side effects of the medication he is on.

              .”What did his parents do to deserve this?” Why did he not care enough about his parents to be concerned about their safety and have them stay with him? I have read from Osterman (you mentioned him) that until this mess, he had nothing to do with his parents once he became a grown man. In his jailhouse calls, he asked his sister about his parents. He did not know their number and she chided him for that because she had given it to him before on more than one occasion.

              “They have completely lost their retirement.” That would be the economy; not George or the ‘angry Black mob.’

              ” And you never hear what has happened to his friends whose lives have completely changed. I “know” one of them and she is not in good shape but yet she still advocates for George.” I think I mentioined a medical study on this: when people lie or do something dishonest, they tend to become ill for no apparent reason and when they finally come clean, they feel much better.

              “Do you ever wonder what happened to those 2 black kids that George mentored for over a year[?]” No, I don’t. I do not believe that GZ mentored anyone because he does not have the emotional capacity to mentor anyone. I tend to confuse mentoring with tuturing which he could not do either. I do suspect that after writing with a male cousin that he got the bright idea to have the under 18 Black kids steal for him. I think the laptop that he was fearful of O’Mara holding for him was stolen. Again, all he wanted to know from his wife is if she got the laptop back and how important it was to get it back from his lawyer. I doubt those kids loved him so much but if they or their mother wants to testify on his behalf, I guess they’ll wait until the SYG hearing, trial or sentencing phase.

              “I noticed that Alicia Martin is finally going to speak out publicly. I have a sense that Crump is scrambling for cover. And what about Brandi Green? Will she speak up and tell the truth? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.” I can’t say one way or the other on this not even from personal opinion.

              What I do notice though is that although you state that you are for guilty until proven innocent that you have determined that GZ is innocent from an emotional point of view rather than the words from his mouth. I am backing my position from words that came from his mouth.

              An admission: I was not interested in this case when my eldest son first mentioned it. Although I am a Black female, I KNEW TM was guilty and got what he deserved. Why? Because he was a Black teen of a certain age from a certain location and then I heard that tape where someone was screaming and begging for help. I heard him beg someone (perhaps George) to please not shoot him and I heard GZ or someone else say, “F**&&g” and then shoot. That was not GZ’s voice pleading for help. After that, I listened to GZ’s 911 call. I listened more thoroughly to his police station interviews. I listened to the witnesses and callers. GZ did not start out with the intention of killing TM but between his accomplices and his own insecurities (listen to Taafe’s logic), he was infuriated. He killed him or was an accomplice to the murder. Perhaps that’s why FT is getting caught in DWI or that friend you mentioned is so sick. If I know my friend is innocent, I’ll make you sick. You won’t make me sick.

            • While I respect you, Lisa, I do not believe we are going to accomplish anything. This is a tragic case and sadly there are more losers than winners. I only wish you and your son peace. We are all here to help one another, not change others to our way of thinking. Amen?

              We do seem to have some things in common.. mutual respect for starters… underneath this difficult dialogue so if you get to Florida, look me up.

              BTW…jordan is my 20 year old daughter who I raised alone after she lost her mother when she was ten. My real name is Wayne.

              I offer grits, fatback, neck bones and collard greens. Maybe some macaroni and cheese. LOL.

            • Thank you. Your response was very kind. You are correct. We are not going to change each other’s mind about that night. George made a bad call. I think Trayvon was defending himself against a stranger(s) and he lost. Peace to you and your family.

            • Thank you. My daughters are grown so I live alone. Kind of strange to have always had a houseful of kids and now cooking and eating by myself.

              Way too much house for a single guy but I stay on one wing and never go to the other side. Makes cleaning a lot easier. The best part is no house payments. LOL.

            • Why allow this to linger for even a month while you sit in hiding amounting to self-imprisonment, be found guilty and still have to spend time in prison vs being found not guilty and being able to move on with your life? If he is found guilty and goes to prison, according to George on Hannity, the inmates gave him their vote of confidence with a hardy thumbs up. He smiled and was proud to tell Hannity and the public that recollection of his few minutes in detention. He won’t have to worry about that if he goes.

            • It’s all a matter of perception. So far, I have seen no evidence of a crime. 80 seconds are missing and only George knows what happened during that time interval but I doubt he planned a murder and then called to report it. Who does that and why?

            • I don’t think he planned a murder. I believe he planned to be a hero making an arrest but he jumped the gun (shot it) by attempting to detain a citizen that was not committing a crime either. He then needed to finish it by turning TM over and pressing him into the ground to finish killing him because TM knew what and who all were involved also.

              Still haven’t answered – if you or he thinks he is innocent, why continue the squirming you or he did that night and face it. If it was God’s plan for him to kill Trayvon and not up to him to try to second guess why, then, he needs to continue on to completion of God’s plan/will. He needs to take that leap of faith to see where God is leading him; what He wants him to learn or know about himself and others. He is acting like the Bible story brothers Cain/Abel. He ran and hid but God found him. If he’s fortunate and most people know the story, they know it is not for any of us to kill him but to allow him to live with this for as long as God wills.

            • Wow… just wow. With respect, do you really believe what you are saying? I am sorry but I have read enough about this case to believe an entirely different scenario but neither of us were there. At the end of day, the law supports his claim of self defense.

              The state has an agenda. Just take a look at their charging document where they specifically mention the iced tea while we know NOW it was watermelon juice. If they can’t get that right, then the entire affidavit is poisoned. I mean how much investigating did they really do?

  10. I look forward to seeing and hearing testimony and evidence supporting “SYG” or supporting 2nd degree murder. I am convinced that regardless of the outcome of trial, George’s life long suffering for his actions have already begun. Either the TM supporters or the GZ supporters are going to be upset when a verdict is read. However, an innocent verdict will not free GZ from the torment and fear he will face for having killed a human being. George will never enjoy the freedom’s that the rest of us have again. He will probably have to move out of the country and remain in hiding until his final day and that may very well be the conclusion of God’s will.

  11. I like keeping up on the case but rarely comment on it, however this seems like the right place to say what I have to say. I follow the case on a news website that has a dedicated section for the Martin case, and the comments depending on the article posted that day can get up in the double digit thousands. Besides reading the articles, I’ll go through and read the comments as well and I have to say I’ve been shocked at what Zimmerman supporters say, or actually the way they say it. I’ve never seen more vile and racist comments posted on any other subject like I have with the Martin/Zimmerman case. Very few Zimmerman supporters show any compassion that a mother and father lost their son, instead they celebrate that Zimmerman took a “thug” off the street. It’s appalling, disgusting, and racist to the core. Some have invested almost every hour of the day of researching this subject and then going on line to defend him. Really? This is how you want to live your lives? And if a Martin supporter makes a statement, even if it’s one of sympathy, they are attacked viciously. No civility. Just pure hate and juvenile behavior. For me, I have a life to live and will let the court system settle it. I have no opinion on it either way. However, a friend of mine made a very wise observation noting that people will see the Zimmerman supporters behavior and some of these people may sit on the jury during his trial, and even though it shouldn’t matter legally, the echo of how vile Zimmerman’s side is acting will play in their heads…they may not be able to seperate the man from his racist and vile supporters. In other words…You’re doing him no favors, and it may actually work against you.

  12. I am concerned about the potential jury. Will they be truly impartial or will they be pro-TM or pro-GZ regardless of the evidence? GZ’s newest judge ruled against a homeless man and the jury acquitted him a month later. My son thinks it’s because the jury felt sympathetic to the homeless man because he’s “out there” and unprotected. Perhaps thinking about the homeless man that the former police chief’s son beat up. A case where GZ supposedly assisted in getting action done in support of that homeless man. That case had a video. The one Judge Nelson had 2 witnesses. I could not determine whether they were eyewitnesses or just neighbors of the 2 brothers. If the threshhold for GZ’s case is beyond ALL reasonable doubt, will the outcome be George’s acquittal since supposedly the evidence is all ear witnesses with the hidden eye witnesses (W. 4 and 7)?

      • I can’t defend or refute my source. All I can do is wait like everyone else and see what comes out in the hearing or trial if there is one. I still don’t see how useful witness 4 is if it’s Austin’s mother. I don’t know who Brandy Green is. Why don’t they have a 911 call or FDLE interview?

  13. I am somewhat new here but reading through the comments, it appears to me that lots of folks think that George planned a murder of what he thought was a suspicious black guy, named Trayvon Martin aka by his handle of “No_Limit_Nigga” and then called LE to report himself.

    After shooing the guy, he then panicked, changed his mind and in his haste to cover it up, he then jammed his weapon into his nose, breaking it, while laying on the ground and bashing his head into the concrete to make it look like he was attacked.

    Since he and his father were so well connected with the SPD, he knew he did not need an attorney.

    Is that a pretty good summary or did I leave something out?

  14. CONTINUED: “Remember all of the cries for an arrest when none was justified? That was step one. Not guilty means the civil suits can proceed. If George is found to be immune at a self defense hearing, then Crump is out of luck. Geroge will also be immune from civil suits. It’s why he is already trying to make deals to cover his “expenses” thus far. However, trouble is on the horizon. I have inside information that the DeeDee conversation may not have even occurred. I have no proof of that but if it’s true, Crump is in deep trouble. `DeeDee will never testify and Crump had hoped George would accept a plea deal so he never had any plans for her to be on a witness stand. Clearly, George will not now plea to anything and Bernie and Corey must also be nervous. We still do not know the truth about the cell phone found at the scene. That is a huge problem. O’Mara is obviously keeping all of this close to the vest so maybe he will be forced to defend George instead of covering his butt. He threw both George and Shellie under the bus. If she gets an out of state lawyer, O”Mara is in trouble but Lester might be, too. The problem is the Seminole County “good old boy” system where they all work together and it’s why George also needs an out of state or out of county attorney, but even so, O’Mara must remain on the case. He made sure of that in the bonding agreement. He is in this for the money.. Do not be deceived.”

    I can not remember what I didn’t know. I beleive that no one of any race, creed, color or whatever should be able to just state that they were defending themselves without having to at least go through a criminal case about it. I do not like mentioning race but a Black person could not have simply stated that he or she felt his/her life was threatened because someone said (while he or she was NOT in possession of the weapon) that they were going to kill them. You should not be deceived. That is insane that TM would say that while GZ still had possession of the weapon. TM’s DNA was not on the weapon. GZ, supposedly beaten into ALMOST unconsciousness (sp?) was able to take this beating and able to have a conversation with a neighbor who spoke to him out of their back door. You believe that?
    I believe in innocent until proven guilty but if GZ was foolish enough to state what he stated in the audio tapes and the Hannity interview and not be found guilty in public opinion, he must be as insane as I suspect him to be. He said in one of his interviews, “…he yelled for help and I shot him.” He said in the reenactment, “He put his hand on his nose and mouth, I mean, he put his hand on my nose and mouth.” Does he view himself in the third person? Who makes that sort of verbal slip? That’s very strange. He stated that he told one of the neighbors that “I don’t need you to call 911, I need you to help me restrain this guy.” Huh? If following someone is not a crime, why would GZ feel the need to change his wording to “I was going in the same direction at the same time”? I am thinking perhaps that is because he wasn’t just following him but “up to no good.” If TM was not commiting a crime at the time that GZ saw him, why was he so suspicious that he interrupted his main concern of feeding his obesity and not going to Target to follow this Black kid?

    As I said, I don’t think he set out to kill anyone but he was prepared to do so. He committed at least manslaughter but the sound of that gun cocking on his 911 call tells me he had other plans. Think about his not being able to find the phone he supposedly just hung up using. Was he reaching for his phone? Why was TM supposed to wait to see what he was reaching for, if he was reaching for a phone? Would you wait to see what I was reaching for if someone cornered you in a dark, out of sight place? I do not believe he was alone. That’s why the gun powder was found on his upper right sleeve rather than on the wristband.

  15. These people aren’t debaters,

    Nothing more that a bunch of horrible people roaming from case to case accusing others of horrific crimes without the knowledge of what their talking about, posting 24/7 crucifying a young boy who isn’t able to defend himself, it’s no wonder they can’t sleep due to the fact their conscience doesn’t allow it

  16. Bot against the law to watch someone are posses a gun not against the law to question someone against the law beating someone which more then one person says was happening plus George has wound Martain none who is the aggressor? Remover at first everyone was saying george was on top of poor crying for helP trayvon but funny he had no wounds

Comments are closed.